00:00:45 iisjmii [n=iisjmii@dhcp-077-248-127-112.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 00:01:06 Does NIL belong to a class? 00:01:39 iisjmii: # 00:01:48 thx 00:01:58 clhs class-of 00:01:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_clas_1.htm 00:02:03 iisjmii: everything has a class. 00:03:00 Thanks, didn't know about class-of 00:03:43 iisjmii: CLOS is very reflective. Take a look at (apropos "class" :cl) 00:03:47 note: lots of output! 00:05:28 hm, actually, there's more output when you look in cl-user 00:05:42 ANSI CL itself only has half a MOP 00:06:10 (apropos "class" :cl-user)==> ;No value 00:07:13 But I need to go, thanks! 00:07:14 -!- iisjmii [n=iisjmii@dhcp-077-248-127-112.chello.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:07:21 hm, lots of output from that on CCL 00:07:42 I guess sbcl only puts symbols in an apropos when that's their home-package 00:09:36 anair [i=62adc7a7@gateway/web/freenode/x-6dab41595fc85784] has joined #lisp 00:11:23 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:13:23 jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 00:16:34 -!- plarett [n=faltic@unaffiliated/dconway] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:20:07 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.181.241] has joined #lisp 00:29:13 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 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01:22:12 (aside from Rayman...) 01:22:16 Adlai: Quite a lot. 01:22:29 (that isn't from Microsoft) 01:22:30 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 01:23:11 Adlai: I haven't used windows other than NT6-series in long time 01:23:27 and all new installs that I do, if I have to, are 6.x line as well 01:24:12 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:15 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 01:24:34 p_l, are you there? 01:24:46 my only real complaint with NT series was Vista's and XPSP2 performance. The SP2 was worst of the two, actually 01:25:00 p_l, my lame ex-employer claims there are no poles writing lisp so no one would be able to maintain my stuff if i get hit by a bus 01:25:01 weirdo: t 01:25:10 p_l, can you pummel some sense into him? 01:25:25 weirdo: I wonder how he will take it, since I'm in UK :/ 01:25:37 p_l, but you can accept payment, right? 01:25:43 and you'd want to maintain well-written code, right? 01:25:47 *Adlai* has linux-newb-bashes-windoze syndrome. 01:26:11 weirdo: right, as long as I can do that without breaking my studies here (4 years more, but one of those is industrial placement) 01:26:24 and if the pay is high enough, I can say "screw studies" 01:26:26 p_l, sure. 01:26:28 p_l: money is involved! 01:26:31 :) 01:27:06 Adlai: sometimes I wish I had decided not to go to UK but stay in Poland and go for "sandwich" course, while working for my former employer 01:27:51 "sandwich" courses? is that yet another idiom that translates horribly into other languages? 01:28:21 Adlai: it translates quite well - it means "part-time studies while you continue working or doing something else" 01:28:36 how is that related to a sandwich??? 01:28:52 sbcl, however, works. 01:28:53 Adlai: it's british idiom. don't ask 01:29:38 p_l: it's bread - and - butter academic experience with a nice industrial filling.. 01:29:45 ZabaQ: there were some changes in memory handling and threading in NT5.1, though I don't know how much could they impact CCL 01:29:53 crod [n=cmell@x250004.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 01:30:01 *p_l* haven't had butter on his bread in *long* time 01:30:14 p_l: It's the exception handling that CCL uses that needs XP+ 01:30:38 p_l: AddVectoredExceptionHandler or somesuch. 01:31:13 p_l: It sounds vaguely useful for serve-event on SBCL.. 01:32:03 well, they even had some changes in supported architecture list between 5.0 and 5.1 (dropping Alpha, adding amd64) 01:33:43 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:34 Dammn. CCL is the only one that doesn't have a slime-communication style of nil out of the box. 01:37:55 wait, it was actually between 5.0 and 5.2 ^^; 5.1 supported only x86 and IA-64... 01:39:20 weirdo: My mother was pole, but I'm French; does it count? 01:39:29 So, the choices are 1> Soldier on, 2> New Laptop and XP, 3> Reinstall with Gentoo Linux. 01:39:45 ZabaQ: Arch! 01:40:09 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:40:28 weirdo: after all, we imported Pole plumbers, you could import French lispers! :-) 01:40:38 Gentoo is good if you have either: a) lean install b) fast temporary drive for compilation. Good, stable internet connection is necessary 01:41:04 And time to correct things after most upgrades... 01:41:21 I spent two days fighting with X drivers and HAL/d-bus! Grrr! 01:41:29 p_l: doesn't Arch offer that too? 01:41:30 pjb: that's why I mentioned internet connection. So you can do emerge world every week :D 01:41:53 Adlai: I find Arch less demanding wrt less-often upgrades 01:42:09 although pacman isn't that good :/ 01:42:19 what don't you like about pacman? 01:42:27 Right now, I don't know what distribution to put on a server. I don't like debian administration, I'd prefer gentoo, but if an emerge breaks it... 01:43:05 /me, the linux newb, is shocked that other people don't like his distro! The unimaginable horror! 01:43:05 Adlai: it doesn't support certain kind of queries I'd like 01:43:31 /me, the reluctant ERC/Emacs user, is shocked at ERC's suckiness at times. 01:43:44 Adlai: I'm actually using Arch64, so I get the right to complain 01:43:54 And I even managed to convert a friend to it for at least some time 01:43:59 The reason I'd prefer gentoo over arch is that custom kernels are easier to build. It's a factor on this laptop which seems to have a few problems with stock kernels and mouse auto-detection. (bad touchpad). 01:44:08 was that friend new to Linux? 01:44:24 Adlai: not really, although starting so late he lacks certain skills 01:44:41 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@153.18.26.128] has joined #lisp 01:44:46 I'd like to make a lisp based distribution. All admin tools, package management, boots cripts, etc, written in lisp... 01:44:53 hmm? what skills could one lack that couldn't be learned? 01:45:01 pjb: wouldn't we all (: 01:45:07 Adlai: the question is that you need a drive to learn 01:45:44 a need to "look underneath the underneath", maybe (to use a quote from my latest choice of literature...) 01:45:59 We could start with asdf-install and build on it... 01:46:10 *Adlai* blinks at pjb 01:46:14 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:46:34 -!- crod [n=cmell@x250004.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:46:34 the horror 01:46:52 p_l: improving it on the way! 01:47:11 it's interesting though that asdf could, without too much modification, be a real replacement to makefiles 01:47:16 pjb: actually, there was at least one init system that used Scheme 01:47:41 p_l: why? so that you could continue from the start rather than reboot? 01:48:14 Forking most processes, you wouldn't even have to exec anything! :-) 01:48:39 any hunchentoot users in here ? 01:48:50 Adlai: no, because S-expr were considered better format for initfiles than /bin/sh scripts as well a better language to write extensions in (it was much more complicated than SysV init or even BSD init) 01:49:25 which init system was this? 01:49:34 Of course, config files would be a bliss! 01:50:23 Adlai: I don't recall exactly, maybe it was init-ng or something like that 01:50:29 Now, with things like HAL, they start to have a lot of XML configuration files... 01:50:32 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B401.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:42 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B401.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:50:54 basically, the idea was that instead of placing the functionality in modules, so the core init would be very lean&mean, but you could add plugins 01:51:12 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:53 and yes, XML in HAL made give up on it 01:52:00 -!- coderdad_ [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:52:11 Next step, write a mini sbcl bootstrapping code compiler to skip the C compiler, and you may have a linux system with no C code! :-) 01:52:33 (but in the kernel, that's the ultimate frontier, replace linux by movitz) :-) 01:53:00 Time to go to bed. Have good dreams! :-) 01:54:21 Why deal with all the bit fiddling? Live within the emacs + lisp ivory tower :D 01:54:35 Dawgmatix_: My eyes! They bleed! 01:54:44 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-4ae470d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:54:45 They bleed when I see elisp code! 01:54:56 get a pair of rose tinted spectacles ;) 01:55:13 ivory tower fitted with a custom hookah 01:56:13 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.173.73] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:56:17 Dawgmatix_: to seriously answer your question -- so that it's not being done by C! 01:56:44 I read a crypto book once that said that the only way to avoid the most common security problem is to just not use C or C++, ever. 01:57:41 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:57:41 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:57:41 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-4ae470d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:57:41 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1BAE.versanet.de] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:57:41 -!- ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:57:41 -!- kzar [n=kzar@174.6.66.224] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:57:41 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 01:59:55 my first job (that recently ended) taught me that the nature of some problems is that they dictate the creation of messy code 02:00:07 ???? 02:00:33 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:33 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 02:00:33 kzar [n=kzar@174.6.66.224] has joined #lisp 02:00:33 benny [n=benny@i577A1BAE.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:00:33 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 02:00:42 I initially blamed it on the tools, and the programmers before me but eventually realised that in an environment where requirements change daily and things always need to be delivered yesterday the language itself wouldnt help things much 02:00:50 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1BAE.versanet.de] has quit [Operation timed out] 02:00:53 thats just my personal sceptical take :) 02:00:54 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 02:01:23 that being said, I wish I could unlearn C++ :) 02:02:14 There was a c++ guru at work who sent out a weekly quiz with puzzles and gotchas, and its amazing that he had fresh pitfalls for about a years worth of material 02:02:15 Dawgmatix_: That's called "Incurring Technical Debt". All the language can do is make refactoring more easy by it's nature. 02:02:53 I agree, which is why I am trying to gravitate towards more interesting problems as part of of my daily job :) 02:03:03 In those situations, the pain of static typing might pay for itself. 02:03:14 true Zhivago :) 02:03:33 when theres over a million lines of code, youre thankful you can find-callers reliably 02:03:46 Dawgmatix_: Im sure the same could be done with CL: any multi-paragadim lanugage neccessarily has corners where those paragadims intersect and interact in unpredictable ways. 02:04:18 hmm :) 02:04:38 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:05:09 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:15 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 02:08:53 hmm, I just realized an advantage of Lisp's unpopularity. Any people who actually use Lisp at work, feel free to correct me if this isn't the case. 02:09:26 It seems to me as though because Lisp is unpopular, the only employers who'll let you use Lisp are employers who are worth working for -- ie, not "pointy-haired bosses", to use pg's term. 02:09:46 not pg's, Dilbert's 02:09:49 ;-) 02:09:56 heh, I stand corrected. 02:10:00 -!- jordyd [n=jordy@c-76-108-123-3.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:10:18 *Adlai* is always sad to see a new lisper leave #lisp -- what if they never return?? The horror... 02:11:13 Adlai: or maybe they got a life outside IRC? :D 02:11:24 is there a lisp version of javascripts unescape ? 02:12:11 I am using escape to encode a string in javascript on the browser and want to decode it in my lisp server 02:13:27 *araujo* would really like a job using Lisp 02:13:29 Dawgmatix_: hunchentoot probably has one, for example. 02:13:54 am looking for it :) 02:14:33 p_l: heh 02:16:08 *p_l* actually could code his work job in Lisp, but found his skills lacking (or i was too lazy to learn properly...) 02:16:23 shameshameshame! 02:16:37 ^^; 02:16:51 when you are the only programmer, it gets funny :P 02:17:00 *Adlai* was recently challenged by his "employer" to rewrite a moderate-sized Ruby script in CL, if it was truly that great. 02:17:07 Dawgmatix_: sorry, I'm confusing unescape() with unescapeURI() 02:18:40 Adlai: my current work is in Ruby :) 02:18:54 actually, rewriting it might not be that hard ^^; 02:19:21 Dawgmatix_: Arnesi has one. 02:19:43 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:43 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 02:20:21 Adlai: I think I'll put some research into simple web framework, something not too complicated. Maybe a HAML compiler for Lisp, as well 02:20:39 Dawgmatix_: it's called unescape-as-html 02:21:11 p_l: yep, I intend to try... I really like my "employer", I think it shows that he's open minded that he's spent his entire programming career working in C++ but allows me to try porting some code to CL. 02:21:38 (his only encounters with Lisp before me were a bit of Scheme in college...) 02:22:59 jhalogen_ [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:23:06 -!- jhalogen_ [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:23:27 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-126-175.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:24:44 Adlai: I could probably renegotiate my contract to get title of "VP of Technology" :P 02:26:06 hm, I think that'd justify the effort of using CL, just so that you could have another CL-friendly workplace around. 02:26:22 Adlai: I wish I could get another person to work with me :/ 02:26:40 are there UK lisp meetings? 02:26:44 but I'm already working under National Minimal Wage :/ 02:27:17 hm, ot, any *nix command to search a directory for a file? 02:27:17 Adlai: I'd attend If I could 02:27:35 Adlai: file -name 'filename+wildcards' 02:27:44 *find 02:27:57 hm, ok. One of those rare cases where the name actually describes the function :) 02:28:04 for other options, man 1 find 02:28:53 Adlai: ASR-33 keyboard had heavy-to-move keys and paper tape display. There are reason behind that kind of naming :P 02:29:37 cat = (loop (print 02:29:39 gah 02:29:48 like options would be better called with #\+ instead of #\-, but no-one could be arsed to hold shift :P 02:30:02 cat = (loop (print (read ) )) ? 02:30:19 I guess that's also why certain other systems use #\/ for options... 02:30:22 Adlai: yeah 02:31:37 gko [n=gko@116.59.3.8] has joined #lisp 02:32:18 Adlai: although it's more than that 02:32:50 p_l: really? 02:33:21 Adlai: the full name is "catenate", it's for joining files together :) 02:33:35 concatenate 02:33:40 right :P 02:33:51 it just happens that it uses stdout for output 02:34:12 ah, hm. ok, I was always thinking it might be some attempt at feline humor. 02:34:33 K&R don't have a good sense of humor though, unless getting everybody to use C counts as a joke against humanity :) 02:35:38 I think they had a good sense of humor. Now, Bjarne Stroustrup (or however this is spelled)... 02:36:10 heh, he doesn't have a sense of humor b/c he's still working on C++ I think. 02:36:36 Adlai: unless a certain unofficial interview is true... 02:37:20 in which he claims to have invented C++ to bring high salaries to programmers :/ 02:37:37 maybe, I might be pulling that outta my ass, I just seem to remember that from reading up a bit on C++oxx or whatever they're calling this proposed new revision that'll add lambdas! 02:37:48 dysinger [n=dysinger@32.152.40.36] has joined #lisp 02:37:57 *ZabaQ* thinks slagging off other languages lowers the tone of the channel. 02:38:38 Then again, sometimes I do think C++ is a crime against humanity. 02:39:06 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:39:59 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:40:07 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@153.18.26.128] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:40:21 -!- gko [n=gko@116.59.3.8] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:41:18 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@32.152.40.36] has quit [Client Quit] 02:49:16 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-81ed227a19d05037] has joined #lisp 02:51:05 anyway, it's definitely sleep time here. 02:51:09 -!- ZabaQ [n=johnc@host81-156-64-2.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["zzzz"] 02:56:59 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:57:38 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:46 is the order of binding in progv specified? ie, parallel vs sequential? 03:00:18 What difference would it make? 03:00:59 thanks luis :) 03:01:16 Riastradh: same difference between let and let*, no? 03:01:21 Adlai: no. 03:01:49 pkhuong: which question is that "no" directed towards? 03:02:01 the "same difference" one. 03:02:05 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:02:27 How come order of binding in progv doesn't matter? 03:05:40 Adlai: try and build an example where the order would matter 03:05:58 -!- hrk [n=hrk@acurwa002124.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:06:50 I can't even find an example where I would even use progv... 03:06:51 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:07:17 if X and Y are dynamically bound to 1 and 2, and then you bind them to values that depend on eachother. 03:07:19 pizdets [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:57 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:08:18 -!- pizdets is now known as pizzledizzle 03:08:53 Adlai: why don't you try and write that as code? 03:09:09 pkhuong: hm, I see now. thanks. 03:10:00 nuntius [n=nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:52 gko [n=gko@114-137-29-124.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:33 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:20:09 *p_l* wonders if he could rewire his brain sufficiently to remove need for sleep... 03:26:39 girzel [n=user@123.121.238.60] has joined #lisp 03:27:10 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:29:33 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:30:09 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-109-30.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 03:35:05 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:59 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.238.60] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:48:15 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-219-223.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:47 p_l: try polyphasic sleep 03:49:48 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:51:29 getchar [n=getchar@189.70.49.63] has joined #lisp 03:52:08 Of course then you need a polyphasic family and a polyphasic job. 03:52:38 -!- getchar [n=getchar@189.70.49.63] has left #lisp 03:53:17 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:24 -!- Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit ["Goodnight"] 03:57:41 Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:37 -!- Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:00:10 I was considering removal of sleep altogether 04:00:38 I do have one idea that might work, but the tools to do that are not available currently and the whole thing would be helluva intrusive 04:01:17 still, it would work. And scare everyone to hell, which is a bonus :D 04:01:32 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has joined #lisp 04:03:04 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:50 now, if we got far enough to get proper I/O to our brain's storage, I might simply end up removing sleep... 04:05:56 ... the software for that will be a bitch to write :/ 04:06:04 Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-225-8.san.ru] has joined #lisp 04:06:55 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:08:00 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:38 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 04:21:40 Why not just try for immortality? :) It sounds easier. 04:22:50 luis: does that actually work? 04:26:54 Zhivago: immortality is on that list as well 04:27:13 If you're immortal, then sleep should bother you less. 04:27:15 well, practical immortality. None of that "getting back from death" crap 04:27:42 Zhivago: Sleep is easier to deal with. And could help you in case someone wishes to end your "immortality" faster 04:27:59 p_l: this streamlined Word-based book production process is scaring the bejesus out of me. 04:28:03 On what basis do you think that sleep is easier to deal with? 04:28:19 giga: Why? 04:30:28 Zhivago: on the basis that I might get a sensible AI for operating my body during sleep phase faster than I get an on-line defragmenter/GC for my brain 04:30:29 Zhivago: well, I'm getting Word docs that are supposeed to be very nearly the Word docs that are going to be "fixed" in some way by a compositor, within Word, and they look terrible. 04:30:53 gigamonkey: ask them to generate a PDF for printing and give you that to look at 04:30:58 I have. 04:31:04 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has quit [] 04:31:39 Maybe this Word based workflow will be such a disaster that in order to get the book out on time we'll have to use my TeX-typeset version which is basically ready togo. 04:31:44 s/togo/to go/ 04:33:31 Zhivago: As for the AI, mind you, we're getting closer to having enough computing power to simulate complete human brain, and possibly replicate it in smaller (much smaller) volume of space 04:35:54 jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 04:37:41 Good morning. 04:37:44 Morning. 04:38:18 dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:34 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:38:45 morning 04:39:02 what did I miss? 04:39:40 I'm not sure 04:41:12 Some discussion on sleep. (good morning) 04:42:00 -!- antgreen [n=Anthony@bas2-toronto06-1242510988.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:42:52 -!- dto` is now known as dto 04:47:31 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:50 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E47571.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:59 p_l: Things seem to be reversed. I send them Word files with exactly and correctly applied styles. And they send me back a nightmare of #$#$@%-up haphazardly applied styles. 04:57:39 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:59:04 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:54 ^^; 05:01:51 -!- Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-225-8.san.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:02:20 p_l: I'm not familiar with that emoticon but if it means utter, baffled astonishment, I'm with you. 05:02:36 Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-225-8.san.ru] has joined #lisp 05:02:44 *gigamonkey* discovers you can't google emoticons. 05:03:42 hehe 05:03:58 I've wished that google would support searching for puctuation in the past 05:05:48 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E479E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 05:07:49 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:50 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:07:57 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:10:23 gigamonkey: http://club.pep.ne.jp/~hiroette/en/facemarks/ <--- this looks like quite comprehensive overview 05:11:28 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 05:12:37 hmm... after a thought, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emoticons#Eastern_emoticons <--- this looks easier ^^; 05:13:20 gko` [n=gko@114-137-29-124.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:35 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:15:35 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 05:18:27 *Adlai* always thought that ^^ meant "Look at my previous message." 05:18:33 Yet "^^;" isn't on that list. 05:18:58 *gigamonkey* is >_< 05:19:33 me too! O_o 05:19:47 weirdo pasted "python-style indentation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85237 05:19:55 You might also be interested in 'emoji'. 05:20:01 gigamonkey: it's in general article on emoticons, with ; as replacement for " 05:20:13 so, ^^; == ^^" 05:20:25 and ^^' as well 05:20:48 frankly speaking, I find it less confusing than people using emoticons like that (: 05:21:33 is it necessary to use cl:in-package instead of in-package with asdf? 05:21:38 same for defpackagre 05:25:07 p_l: I still don't understand what ^^; or ^^" is supposeed to signify. (I can't find it on the Wikipedia article.) 05:26:15 gigamonkey: sweatdrop. I guess that's a little hermetic... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manga_iconography <--- reference article? 05:26:17 weirdo: No, what makes you think so? 05:27:00 weirdo: If you are in a package that uses the COMMON-LISP package, then you don't need the package prefix. 05:27:15 beach, but i can't control which package i'm in initially 05:27:23 especially for users 05:29:24 -!- gko [n=gko@114-137-29-124.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:30:15 weirdo: Then I guess the safest thing to do is to use the package prefix, but that is not an ASDF issue. 05:31:13 i thought asdf creates a temporary package when compiling a system 05:31:24 or does it only do for .asd files/ 05:32:04 -!- nerdshark [n=dorkfish@74-131-35-150.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit ["WeeChat 0.3.0-rc1"] 05:32:50 weirdo: it only does if you want it to. 05:33:24 some people prefer to not define a new package, just make sure that they're (in-package :cl), and then do something like (asdf:defsystem foolib :name "foolib" ...) 05:35:46 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:36:55 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.0.113] has joined #lisp 05:40:03 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 05:40:10 Greetings. 05:40:18 hello tmh 05:40:35 hello tmh, fuss 05:40:38 *fusss 05:40:41 minion: memo for rpg "Hey, I found enough of what I needed online to implement RBAC for CLOS objects. So far it's still application-level; the underlying database tables have no security, other than the RDBM's user account, which all database access uses. I found an Apache project Continuum which had jdoPermission Interface, and a good C++ example http://hissa.nist.gov/rbac/rbacot/titlewkshp.html 05:40:41 hey, keep it polite! 05:40:42 I implemented the CLOS for the application, I can wrap this into a secure-object mixin for CLSQL:define-view-class now; a metaclass later." 05:40:48 hey p_l 05:41:01 meh, minion schminion 05:42:02 So, I ran the statistical profiler and the results were interesting, confirmed some suspicions I had about the code, but in a round about way. Now I want to run the deterministic profiler, do I need to start with a new image? Do I need to call sb-profile:reset? Do they interfere with each other? 05:42:06 fusss: I think you need a #\: or something after the nick. 05:42:14 oh, yeah 05:42:33 thanks beach, it took it now 05:43:57 RBAC can be straightforward, or really hard and/or messy 05:45:35 *p_l* remembers that he still needs to put actual ACLs on his database objects :/ 05:45:37 *tmh* interprets silence as "Plow blindly ahead!" 05:45:59 *tmh* issues an (sb-profile:reset) for good measure. 05:46:38 clairvy [n=clairvy@219-106-253-18.cust.bit-drive.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:47:00 the stuff i read divide security into "per object" or "per action"; object is the more general case, where action is a security descriptor on the *accessor*. Opt for the former for a truly fine-grained security, the later if you want to be dependent on your UI not expose disallowed actions. 05:47:32 p_l: my database objects are "naked", all security is in the middle-ware 05:48:30 going one further and refusing all access to the db itself; you work with it via a web service. an web server that translates URIs to database actions (i.e. REST-kinda) 05:49:35 it should be interesting to force non-Lisp programmers to using a web api to access a database on localhost, instead of their language's mysql or whatever bindings. I told them "it's good for you" :-) 05:50:32 fusss: I was considering that approach, but right now I'm simply using DataMapper 05:51:21 p_l: you have to bite the bullet at some point, my man. I dove into this face first, took all responsibility, and as a bonus bi-product, all the pain. 05:51:25 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:51:29 I'm not sure profiling provides useful information when you know you have an obviously inefficient algorithm. It basically just confirms it. 05:52:01 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-80-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:52:02 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-81ed227a19d05037] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:52:07 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-80-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:16 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:54:32 fusss: maybe I'll redo my server-side code with Lisp :/ 05:54:47 -!- nuntius [n=nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12"] 05:55:04 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has joined #lisp 05:55:21 Franz is building a Python platform over CL. Wait for that. 05:56:13 fusss: Do you have a reference for that? 05:56:19 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:56:19 -!- Soemnbesiktigar [i=HydraIRC@95.209.76.130.bredband.tre.se] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:56:42 tmh: very subtle hints here and there 05:57:21 Hmmm, after consulting google, I get a page on a Python API for AllegroGraph 3.2 05:57:22 Soemnbesiktigar [i=HydraIRC@95.209.76.130.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 05:57:22 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 05:57:22 an ILC tutorial on the subject; a white paper, a few banners and paragraphs in their press area 05:57:35 troll their site for a bit and you will see it. they have a python implementation in house. 05:57:43 cl-python my man 06:00:00 2005-12-13 "... implementation of Python in Allegro CL 8.0 ..." 06:00:15 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-5d12afbe002af753] has joined #lisp 06:01:16 And this -> http://common-lisp.net/project/clpython/ 06:01:33 I've seen this before. 06:03:48 Cool, Common Lisp is the target platform. 06:04:36 pyjamas might be interesting for reference. 06:06:18 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:06:56 Zhivago: Anyone porting the GWT to CL? 06:07:13 tmh: I don't know. I doubt it. 06:07:44 I don't think GWT itself would fit, though a GWT equivalent is certainly possible 06:08:03 *Adlai* envisions a CL->python compiler... 06:08:49 Adlai: that is iirc in the plans 06:08:59 Adlai, mark tarver already did this for qi 06:09:06 girzel [n=user@123.121.238.60] has joined #lisp 06:09:12 *weirdo* is writing a python-ish language 06:09:17 tmh: GWT sucks, don't waste your time there 06:09:46 Well, I wouldn't say that it sucks, but I can't see the motivation to port it to CL. 06:10:33 oh dear. 06:10:41 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:10:41 fusss: Ok, thanks. I'm planning on putting a little website together for my engineering company. I wanted to do as much of in CL for my own benefit. The website will be very small and simple. 06:10:52 By in CL, I mean using CL tools. 06:11:47 fusss: I'm actually doing part of my app in GWT 06:12:02 p_l: RoR AND GWT? 06:12:31 is it annoyingly form-based? say, some sort of intranet app with heavy DB read/update? 06:13:32 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 06:13:37 hello 06:13:54 are any postmodern users here? 06:14:43 kami-: most web people here are on postmodern, except moi 06:15:19 I have a strange behaviour when loading postmodern, asdf loads simple-date which is packaged with postmodern 06:15:45 wrong: it /tries/ to load simple-date but seems to get into an infinite loop 06:17:18 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 06:17:37 hello 06:19:06 Hey 06:20:06 hello mrSpec 06:22:11 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-80-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:22:18 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-80-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:31 -!- vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:24:13 logBot9386 [n=logBot@59.96.56.244] has joined #lisp 06:27:17 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:27:25 fusss: did it once already, with Maxima. Now I'm doing Merb + GWT 06:27:55 GWT goes into administrative interface 06:28:51 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:36:38 vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 06:42:58 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-212-154.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:49 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:43:58 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-212-154.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:47:23 daniel__ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:56:16 -!- gko` [n=gko@114-137-29-124.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:56:32 gko [n=gko@114-137-29-124.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:30 ASau [n=user@host65-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:02:24 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:03:20 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:03:54 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:04:37 Hun [n=Hun@p4FCF6D74.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:39 XOTcl, weird mix of CLOS and Tcl 07:07:43 never seen it before 07:08:27 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:09:13 SUBST-IF is sweet 07:09:40 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 07:10:34 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:12:27 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:13:25 the holly grail! objects + roles: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.30.2124 good paper 07:17:00 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:17:21 <_3b> fusss: have you seen persevere (www.persvr.org)? 07:18:05 no, but Redis killed my curiousity for other DBs; it's *that* good 07:18:11 prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:13 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 07:18:21 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:19:02 <_3b> main interesting bit is that it does security/user stuff 07:19:12 persvr looks good actually; packs a few buzzwords into a neat little list 07:19:16 yeah 07:19:30 *_3b* didn;t really look closely though, since like it wouldn't work easily for my app 07:20:05 *_3b* grumbles about platforms that can't do PUT or DELETE requests, and REST APIs that requires them :/ 07:20:48 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:20:57 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:25:24 we break REST like the Fonz broke teenage girls' hearts when he stopped by Kansas to fix a flat tire 07:26:09 we be rollin' in kludge like it was dough 07:26:50 CHANGE-CLASS ftw 07:26:58 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:36 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-7-12.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 07:28:48 hail 07:29:35 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 07:30:57 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:31:25 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest83841 07:31:26 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:33:03 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-57-150.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:34:00 i'm lazy, so i'm asking: in (format nil "~2,D" 1) how can i pass 2 as an argument to format? 07:34:19 there was some control for that 07:35:00 -!- Guest83841 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 07:35:45 well, cl has roman numbers :-), so i guess there's some way to do this, i'm just having breakfast now... 07:36:13 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/22_cgf.htm 07:37:30 levy: use v or V 07:37:38 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-189.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:39:00 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:39:20 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:40:42 'good-morning 07:40:52 hello trebor_dki 07:41:02 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:41:18 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 07:41:41 hello beach 07:41:46 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:33 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B401.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:21 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:48:21 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-160-35.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:48:21 good morning all 07:48:23 what is the most simple video-format? avi? 07:48:35 avi is just a container 07:48:42 hello madnificent 07:48:52 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:48:54 simplest is raw input; but it takes gazillion of space 07:49:10 no, really; hundreds of gigabytes for divx 2-hour movie 07:49:35 so it takes lots of IO to play it 07:49:45 look at ffmpeg 07:50:22 thanks, weirdo - space doesn't matter, i need it only to generate some minutes from single pictures ... 07:50:37 trebor_dki, use mencoder 07:50:41 it's a part of the mplayer project 07:50:59 btw, save yourself some time and combine x11 selection and clipboard 07:51:08 use kde's klipper, it runs fine under gnome and probably even stumpwm 07:51:15 i've been hating the selection thing for years now 07:51:20 and finally, my woes are over 07:54:42 how are you beach? 07:55:06 madnificent: Fine, thanks, and you? 07:55:31 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:55:54 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:56:25 I've been rather busy. But I'm having fun (lisp code \o/):) 07:56:42 madnificent: What are you working on? 07:57:54 summer job. Currently I'm finishing the sales application. Web based, local server. Firefox doesn't seem to be the worst platform to have as a frontend. 07:58:12 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-160-35.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:58:42 beach: are you working on something, or are you having meetings again? 07:58:43 anyone knows the package name for CCL in ubuntu? 08:00:09 madnificent: I am technically on vacation. 08:00:28 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:00:40 madnificent: I am trying to learn Vietnamese, but I am also trying to process som Email, and write prototypes for a few projects. 08:00:48 HG` [n=wells@85.8.91.54] has joined #lisp 08:01:00 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:01:29 beach: time for some work that you really need to do, but always push forward then :) 08:01:46 weirdo: is there a package for CCL in ubuntu? Perhaps you should google for a .deb 08:01:52 madnificent: here: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/app.png for instance is an application that lets me display a Vietnamese text and when I put the mouse over a work, the English translation is displayed in a different pane. 08:02:59 madnificent: and here: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/document-recovery.png is a prototype of a document-recovery system with a diffirence, according to this description: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Lisp-projects/document-recovery.html 08:04:07 hmm, clim? 08:04:32 weirdo: Of course! 08:04:54 weirdo: CLIM lets me whip up a GUI in no time at all. 08:07:59 levy_ [n=levy@apn-94-44-3-218.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:08:25 i like this genera-style command prompt 08:08:35 it lets you type lisp exprs too? 08:08:36 I never got started decently with CLIM. I probably should take time for it 08:09:01 weirdo: Not these applications, but it is easy to add. 08:09:12 and it's great how you can draw over the listener 08:09:35 beach: I haven't read the complete document-recovery page, but it looks interesting 08:10:18 and the clim app is probably very handy if you're learning Vietnamese (perhaps it would be good for any language... perhaps I should even give it to my dad) 08:11:39 madnificent: I am not sure about it yet. I wrote it because I am very bad at remembering vocabulary, and I got tired of looking up the same words over and over again in the dictionary. Whether this is a good approach to learning a language, I don't know. 08:12:42 it is good for reading his emails... sometimes he doesn't know some words... it may not be the perfect approach 08:13:38 madnificent: Are you saying he receives email in a language other than his native one? 08:13:45 many 08:14:26 don't you receive many in a non-native language too? 08:15:21 madnificent: I do, but that's because I live and work in a country where my native language is not spoken. On the other hand, I am pretty fluent in both French and English. 08:15:46 But yeah, occasionally, there is a work I need to look up, mostly to get the spelling right. 08:16:09 *word 08:16:29 -!- kzar [n=kzar@174.6.66.224] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:21:14 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:21:14 -!- Soemnbesiktigar [i=HydraIRC@95.209.76.130.bredband.tre.se] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:21:28 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:21:28 I wonder what it'd be like to work in your native language 08:21:57 Soemnbesiktigar [i=HydraIRC@95.209.76.130.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 08:21:57 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 08:22:21 It was pretty strange last time I tried to give a technical talk in my native language. I wouldn't want to do that again. 08:26:01 did you invented at least three new words? 08:26:32 beach: What is your native language? 08:26:50 ment: I don't know. Did I? 08:27:02 Zhivago: some people call it "Swedish". 08:27:08 Ah. 08:27:33 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-7-12.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:28:40 -!- Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-225-8.san.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:29:49 Zhivago: I personally don't, because if it is Swedish, then some people will complain that I have a thick accent. If I declare it a separate language, then that problem goes away. 08:30:21 Russel-Athletic [n=engelzz@d174.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has joined #lisp 08:30:22 hiho 08:30:27 hello Russel-Athletic 08:30:41 i need something in sbcl that lets the process wait for x seconds before continuing 08:30:51 but i am too stupid to find anything in the docs 08:30:52 -!- Soemnbesiktigar is now known as Frukost 08:31:21 clhs sleep 08:31:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sleep.htm 08:31:41 sleep... i searched for wait -.- 08:31:45 thanks 08:31:50 No problem. 08:34:16 Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-225-8.san.ru] has joined #lisp 08:36:35 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:37:23 Russel-Athletic: typically, on unix systems, "wait" means a different thing. It's a way for the parent process to wait for a child. in your case, a process can't "wait" for itself :-) 08:38:14 -!- jao [n=jao@127.Red-213-98-196.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:39:58 i try to remeber it 08:40:15 wait(2) would be better named "reap", because that's what it is 08:43:59 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:52:23 -!- Frukost is now known as Kadavermums 08:56:03 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229172098.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:57:07 hmmmm, yet again, i can't have strings as hash keys 08:58:04 fusss: why not? 08:58:23 with :test (function equal) 08:59:05 (progn (setf (gethash "admin" *roles*) (make-instance 'role :id (next-role-id) :name "admin")) (gethash "admin" *roles*)) ==> NIL 08:59:14 oh that's right 08:59:34 -!- Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-225-8.san.ru] has left #lisp 09:00:00 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:00:04 Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-225-8.san.ru] has joined #lisp 09:00:06 I was using a closure as a test function with LW elsewhere, and that broke the sbcl deployment lisp. since that i might been scared by non-standard make-hash-table dark corners 09:01:18 matimago: can't I use EQUALP for maximum matching? 09:01:39 there might be some local issue lurking underneath as well; i thought EQUALP did everything it could to get a positive ID 09:01:42 Yes, if you want case insensitivity. 09:01:50 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:03:17 that's what I thought. cheers! 09:03:45 -!- gko [n=gko@114-137-29-124.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:05:26 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:05:28 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:41 -!- ASau [n=user@host65-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:07:06 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:07:06 -!- Kadavermums [i=HydraIRC@95.209.76.130.bredband.tre.se] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:08:02 Kadavermums [i=HydraIRC@95.209.76.130.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 09:08:02 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 09:09:19 -!- clairvy [n=clairvy@219-106-253-18.cust.bit-drive.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:13:42 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:14:23 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:16:29 ASau [n=user@host65-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 09:17:40 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@c-76-21-5-11.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:44 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:17:44 -!- Kadavermums [i=HydraIRC@95.209.76.130.bredband.tre.se] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:18:44 Kadavermums [i=HydraIRC@95.209.76.130.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 09:18:44 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 09:20:29 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:21:52 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:25:28 -!- rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:26:19 benny [n=benny@i577A0DDC.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:26:21 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-5d12afbe002af753] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:27:36 rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:45 Reav___ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:32:51 chris2 [n=chris@p5B169D24.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:33:17 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:35:49 Hello attila_lendvai, I have a very strange behaviour while dumping a new core with simple-build-image (which works great on 2 other machines). While loading postmodern, asdf tries to load simple-date and seems to get stuck in a recursive loop. Does that sound familiar? 09:36:00 kami- pasted "recursive loading?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85243 09:37:27 when I do run-sbcl and then (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'postmodern), there's no problem 09:37:29 kami-: hi! no idea, i've never seen something like that... 09:37:44 angerman [n=angerman@p57A38F9F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:37:56 attila_lendvai: hmm. You were my last hope. 09:38:00 the only reason i can think of is that simple-date depends on itself, but that's most probably not the case 09:38:17 kami-: try to find some hints in the backtrace 09:38:27 -!- dwave is now known as asksol 09:38:32 attila_lendvai: wait. I remember some weirdness with asdf and dates (of files) 09:39:46 acieroid2 [n=acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 09:41:14 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:41:47 attila_lendvai: did I tell you that the people liked the meta-gui contrary to my expectations? 09:41:56 attila_lendvai: just as you said :) 09:42:51 -!- Kadavermums is now known as Jobbesiktningen 09:43:49 kami-: well, once it's working fine, it's a great tool. but once it breaks, it breaks everywhere... :) 09:44:38 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:45:44 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:47:25 -!- acieroid [n=acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:48:47 attila_lendvai: I don't really understand (yet) why it breaks, when it breaks 09:49:00 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-225-121.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:08 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:17 -!- ment [i=thement@ibawizard.net] has left #lisp 09:52:32 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 09:52:53 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:54:42 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:58:28 cp2_ [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 09:59:23 -!- Reav___ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:00:31 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-239.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:01:03 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:02:02 nurv101 [n=nurv101@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 10:14:05 stassats [n=user@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:14:53 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:51 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:20:48 -!- acieroid2 is now known as acieroid 10:21:39 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:22:22 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-126-175.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 10:23:37 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.0.113] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:23:44 -!- logBot9386 [n=logBot@59.96.56.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:25:21 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-48-24.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 10:25:40 attila_lendvai, hey 10:25:55 any regressions in perec? i'll probably be using it on a new project 10:26:18 attila_lendvai, and you could do something about adding new functions. it's stupid this "vm" thing, one should be able to add new stuff like tsearch2 easily 10:27:45 5 10:27:46 damn 10:31:08 weirdo, no regressions that we know of 10:32:03 weirdo, what's this adding new functions thing? 10:33:02 lghtng [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:33:14 *p_l* considers doing a CLIM-like UI in GWT 10:34:13 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-24-182.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 10:34:26 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:36:30 -!- lghtng [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:36:34 lghtng [n=lghtng@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:39:23 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:40:00 logBot5132 [n=logBot@59.96.33.90] has joined #lisp 10:40:03 -!- logBot5132 [n=logBot@59.96.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:42:43 -!- stassats [n=user@wikipedia/stassats] has left #lisp 10:46:01 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-662e7e07dcc9976d] has joined #lisp 10:46:19 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@c-76-21-5-11.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:49:32 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 10:50:34 -!- lghtng [n=lghtng@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:50:56 lghtng [n=lghtng@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:54:01 levy_: he's probably talking about queries running in the vm. and adding functions that have an SQL equivalent is already easy as far as i know... 10:54:20 yes 10:54:22 -!- lghtng [n=lghtng@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:54:36 but adding a tsearch CL function would be tricky 10:54:44 *attila_lendvai* is off to lunch 10:54:46 perec related blog: http://pinterface.livejournal.com/ 10:54:52 it has some examples 10:54:57 another feature request 10:55:06 could you make simple SELECT queries work without WITH-TRANSACTION block? 10:55:14 i mean, readonly stuff 10:55:15 lghtng [n=lghtng@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:56:14 weirdo, a select without transaction would be weird(o) :-) 10:56:38 levy_, but it works from the pgsql repl... and typing WITH-TRANSACTION is cumbersome 10:56:49 -!- lghtng [n=lghtng@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:57:12 lghtng [n=lghtng@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:57:27 weirdo, i didn't know that postgresql does such things... 10:57:42 -!- lghtng [n=lghtng@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:58:41 weirdo, i guess it's pgsql which does that for you 10:58:58 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-48-24.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:59:20 you can say (begin) and run selects afterwards 10:59:26 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:59:28 and say (rollback) later on 10:59:30 levy_, in every SQL one can execute a SELECT statement without a transaction block 11:00:38 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:16 maybe this could be controlled by a global in cl-rdbms and you could turn that on when playing with the repl 11:02:18 weirdo, i think in SQL you always have a transaction even if you did not start one, it is just an implicit auto committed transaction 11:02:42 i think this as being useful in general, so cl-rdbms could do something like that 11:03:15 yeah! 11:03:17 :-) 11:03:29 could you give an example of defining some tsearch operators? 11:03:44 instead of worrying *transaction* not being bound, but i would not make that the default, so you would have to switch turn that on 11:04:01 yeah, i'll just put it in my .sbclrc then 11:04:23 would it work if i just setq'd *transaction* to a new transaction? 11:04:26 weirdo, look at http://pinterface.livejournal.com/ 11:04:35 cracki [n=cracki@46-199.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:04:40 weirdo, also look at the code in query compiler, it is quite extensible 11:04:43 *weirdo* subscribed to rss 11:04:49 thank you 11:04:49 -!- HG` [n=wells@85.8.91.54] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:04:57 weirdo, (begin) just does that 11:05:12 hmm 11:12:48 lghtng [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:13:54 wow defptype 11:14:30 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p4FCF6D74.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:14:52 hmm i was thinking about providing pattern-matching-like syntax for SQL 11:14:59 i dislike how relations are written flatly 11:15:01 do you? 11:15:10 i mean for SELECT only 11:15:56 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:16:20 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32CCBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:12 HG` [n=wells@xdslgy069.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:18:28 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:19:19 -!- cracki [n=cracki@46-199.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:23:16 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:23:28 -!- lghtng [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:23:29 prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:36 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:38 weirdo, i don't know what you mean by flatly? 11:36:19 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-662e7e07dcc9976d] has left #lisp 11:37:33 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B401.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 11:41:25 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:41:34 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:42:05 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 11:45:15 abcminiuser [n=Dean@ppp36FB.dsl.pacific.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:45:36 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:52:58 Ogedei [n=user@e178223175.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:53:40 antgreen [n=Anthony@bas2-toronto06-1242510988.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:56:19 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:57:27 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32CCBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:17 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 11:59:27 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:01:11 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-99-143.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:01:33 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-112-69.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:01:37 -!- beach` is now known as beach 12:02:27 tvaalen [n=tvaal@unaffiliated/tvaal] has joined #lisp 12:03:03 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:03:10 scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has joined #lisp 12:04:28 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:05:20 Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:07:26 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:08:02 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:13 the statement was ambiguous, could be flat dislike or flattened relations 12:17:18 levy_, like: 12:17:18 (where (and (equal (some-relation-of foo) 12:17:18 (some-relation-of bar)) 12:17:18 (equal (other-relation-of foo) 12:17:21 (other-relation-of baz)))) 12:17:25 it should have been more similar to pattern matching 12:18:46 (foo some-relation-of (bar attr-of 42 12:18:46 attr2-of 69) 12:18:46 other-relation-of baz) 12:19:05 these two examples aren't equivalent. i'm sleepy :( 12:19:19 -!- abcminiuser [n=Dean@ppp36FB.dsl.pacific.net.au] has left #lisp 12:19:22 but you know how pattern matching looks like and it isn't flat like SQL WHERE clauses 12:19:38 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:20:15 of course SQL won't provide unification and other nifty features of pattern matching 12:20:19 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:20:38 -!- Russel-Athletic [n=engelzz@d174.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has quit ["leaving"] 12:20:54 weirdo, that would be hard to implement, i guess 12:21:58 IMO perec has too many dependencies and too many abstractions 12:22:04 it's hard to get one's head around the code 12:22:27 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 12:22:32 too many dependencies is meaningless 12:23:01 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:13 and computed-class causes problems :( once a bug happens, all classes have to be purged lest the error propagate on the next slot access 12:23:41 on my 1-core machine it took a minute to load perec. well, i don't start a new image too often but still 12:23:44 now it takes 15 seconds 12:23:54 Belaf [n=campedel@net-93-144-246-124.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 12:23:55 and there's also heap usage coming from so much code 12:23:57 why don't you write an image? 12:24:02 but still, perec is a great piece of code 12:24:30 i update stuff so often i'd have to do it every day or so :) 12:24:52 as for computed-class, you could be more specifc, i did not have serious issues like that 12:25:16 weirdo, so instead of waiting it loading once per day, you wait for it loading several times per day 12:25:30 levy_, i once had an issue when misspelling argument to :type in slotdef, every time i redefined a class it popped up again even though i deleted the class 12:25:35 i usually have several different images on my disk 12:25:38 attila fixed the bug but the general issue remains 12:26:22 the blog you provided a link to is great, it'll boost my productivity immensely, thank you :-) 12:27:19 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:27:21 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:42 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:29:25 documentation/tutorial issue might change in the near future 12:29:46 we are planning to make a live system soonish 12:29:59 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:04 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:31:30 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:32:23 jan247_ [n=jan247@222.127.192.142] has joined #lisp 12:33:00 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:35:22 you could document internal apis for hacking :) at least what individual subsystems do 12:36:36 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.141.79] has joined #lisp 12:36:45 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:37:06 weirdo pasted "old perec bug" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85250 12:38:05 there was something with PURGE, either i couldn't figure out the syntax or it was broke :) 12:38:30 also i miss perec functions for maintaining SQL sequences 12:39:49 lgnht [n=loqui@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:41 -!- lgnht [n=loqui@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has quit ["Loqui"] 12:46:23 weirdo, that should work without the oid hack, it certainly is a bug 12:48:01 weirdo, there is someting in cl-rdbms 12:48:19 sequence-next for example 12:48:27 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 12:48:54 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:54 levy_, thank you 12:52:57 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.107] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:54:00 borism [n=boris@195-50-205-30-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 12:57:32 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 13:00:55 Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 13:02:10 http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Nth_root_algorithm#Common_Lisp 13:02:25 anyone can have this code return a value? 13:02:46 it's translated from other languages and it loops forever or triggers an overflow 13:02:50 tried in both sbcl and clisp 13:05:00 works for me 13:06:38 now it does for me too. i guess slime had problems printing such long floats 13:06:40 thank you 13:07:54 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 13:08:39 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:09:46 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:11:37 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:19 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:14:43 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:11 Rubix [n=Rubix@pool-70-22-229-101.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:49 wow, SBCL pretty-printing is really sophisticated 13:22:51 -!- Rubix [n=Rubix@pool-70-22-229-101.bos.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 13:24:06 demmel [n=demmel@d057.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 13:25:46 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 13:29:16 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:54 Hun [n=hun@82.149.80.128] has joined #lisp 13:38:45 rsynnott_ [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 13:40:00 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslgy069.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:42:09 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 13:42:59 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:35 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-194.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 13:46:08 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:30 weirdo, tomi (fellow developer) said that you might needed the oid-of in that example because the query probably run in lisp and the instance came from another transaction 13:46:35 thus they were not eq 13:47:34 is there a way to know what runs in lisp? 13:47:40 it's pretty inefficient 13:48:03 i'd rather turn off all lisp stuff except essential ones and hack perec until everything's done in SQL 13:48:20 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:48:21 weirdo, start-sql-recording can help 13:48:35 our turning on query compiler tracing, but that is harder to follow 13:48:48 you know, if it returns all rows from a table and filters them in lisp then it's pretty pessimal 13:48:53 there is also an option to select to compile during macro expand, so you can C-c Ret 13:49:15 it will never be able to do everything in SQL 13:49:21 that is impractical 13:50:50 weirdo: my experience: 90% of the tables have about 50-100 rows. there i'm happy to trade runtime machine performance to development-time developer performance 13:50:57 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:52:32 btw, i'm positive it was all one transaction, as i wrap WITH-TRANSACTION around all web page stuff 13:52:56 -!- Jobbesiktningen is now known as Idebesiktninge 13:52:56 (as well as sleep for random amounts of time if a deadlock occurs and retry *g*) 13:53:06 -!- Idebesiktninge is now known as rejp 13:53:44 nerdshark [n=dorkfish@74-131-35-150.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 13:55:31 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:40 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C7D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:16 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:57:30 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:30 -!- Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-225-8.san.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:01:41 cyb3r3li0g [n=eguzman@fwabq.cvimellesgriot.com] has joined #lisp 14:02:33 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 14:02:39 Greetings. 14:03:32 hi. 14:10:35 lichtblau: thanks for blogging! 14:10:41 it is like manna from heaven 14:11:45 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:12:10 -!- danlei`` is now known as danlei 14:12:25 To anyone that uses LispWorks frequently, do you use the LispWorks IDE or EMACS+SLIME? 14:12:40 thank pinterface and levy, not me! 14:12:40 -!- danlei is now known as Guest49360 14:12:47 -!- mogunus` [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:13:31 lichtblau: if it weren't for you, the planet lisp community would be forever ignorant of it 14:13:43 forever! 14:14:10 kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:12 mogunus` [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:29 I'm beginning to firm up details for SBCL10 14:14:41 I have as much as a week available, from 14th-18th December 14:14:53 talks, if any, will probably happen on the 14th 14:14:54 merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:09 I have not previously heard of SBCL10, can you tell me more about it? 14:15:17 oh 14:15:32 for sbcl's 10th birthday, a gathering in London in December 14:15:50 -!- jan247_ [n=jan247@222.127.192.142] has quit [] 14:15:53 mostly hacking-oriented rather than presentation-oriented 14:16:15 Xof: Like a LAN party without the videogames (: 14:16:33 exactly 14:16:40 but with added whiteboards to draw on 14:18:09 Like an OpenBSD Hackathon? 14:18:45 I don't know 14:19:25 Here -> http://www.openbsd.org/hackathons.html 14:21:54 can you move the anniversary to January when I have new vacation days available? plz k thx 14:22:26 My impression is that when you get all of the developers in the same room focused on nothing but code, you can get an impressive productivity spike in the project. 14:23:20 maybe it will get a bytecode interpreter, a CLX editor, a communications protocol, etc 14:23:31 but no longer be sanely bootstrappable...a small price to pay 14:23:50 don't forget the ability to natively read email 14:24:00 *Xach* wishes he remembered more features of cmucl, so he could improve that joke 14:24:02 Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-225-8.san.ru] has joined #lisp 14:24:22 double-double-floats! 14:24:34 -!- rejp is now known as Noh-Wayey 14:24:36 quadruple floats? 14:24:37 It might be more in the spirit of SBCL to spend a week removing features that have crept in again. 14:24:40 rm -rf sb-posix 14:25:06 Is it legal to MACROLET bind symbols in the COMMON-LISP package? 14:25:53 clhs 11.1.2.1.2 14:25:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm 14:26:54 lichtblau: Don't remove it, spin it off. 14:27:07 stassats: so do you just know that section number, or did you look it up first? 14:27:34 eleven one two one two is burned in my mind 14:27:35 gigamonkey: this section number is a well known one. :-) 14:27:58 gigamonkey: i did look up 14:29:12 Bah, that's annoying. You can't. Except in the case where the symbol doesn't already name a function, macro, or special operator. 14:29:47 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:29:54 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 14:29:59 think about it: doing so would have arbitrary effects on the CL implementation's own macros 14:30:37 but macrolet is lexical? 14:30:37 actually, 11.1.2.1.2.1 14:30:53 stassats: true but irrelevant 14:31:14 you macrolet, some standard macro is expanded *inside* the macrolet, uses your definition, loses 14:31:17 kpreid: ah, because the impls macros might get expanded in ... 14:31:18 right. 14:31:32 kpreid: i see 14:31:33 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:32:21 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:32:49 is this right? http://paste.lisp.org/display/85253 .. sbcl from git just now .. i might need coffee again 14:33:06 i hit this problem while upgrading iolib 14:35:00 WFM in .31 sbcl 14:35:41 So that's one way to deal with Word's lack of a good line breaking algo--set everything ragged right. 14:35:55 lnostdal: what does (sb-int:get-floating-point-modes) return? 14:36:14 pkhuong, (:TRAPS (:OVERFLOW :INVALID :DIVIDE-BY-ZERO) :ROUNDING-MODE :NEAREST 14:36:14 :CURRENT-EXCEPTIONS (:INEXACT) :ACCRUED-EXCEPTIONS (:INEXACT) :FAST-MODE NIL 14:36:14 :PRECISION :53-BIT) 14:36:30 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:36:58 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 14:37:24 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C7D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 14:37:26 x86? Can you paste the disassembly? 14:37:33 yeah, x86 14:38:39 pkhuong, http://paste.lisp.org/display/85253#1 14:39:48 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has joined #lisp 14:39:56 anyone using a white background for emacs? 14:40:09 or gray? 14:40:32 i use white 14:40:37 black here, weirdo 14:40:45 after 3 years using black background 14:40:51 levy_: now it's time for you to blog! 14:40:53 milanj [n=milan@93.87.181.86] has joined #lisp 14:41:24 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-72-160.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:41:33 i see "faster truncate on floats" mentioned in the git log recently 14:41:43 1.0.30.38 14:41:59 Xach, what do you mean, blog of what? 14:42:05 angerman_ [n=angerman@p57A3C08A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:42:22 p0a [n=user@athedsl-380068.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:43:54 weirdo: i flip between w/b (outside daytime) b/w (night and & or inside) 14:44:01 levy_: you know, to write about your daily experience with Common Lisp, in an insightful and entertaining way 14:45:11 lnostdal: that's what I'm thinking of too. Let me run a build and see if I can find anything. 14:45:41 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:45:51 weirdo: white. 14:45:52 -!- merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has quit [] 14:46:15 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 14:46:42 angerman__ [n=angerman@p57A3BF5C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:48:05 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.28.130] has joined #lisp 14:48:09 Xach, i'm not an experienced writer, but i may write a few things as soon as our live system is up and running 14:48:48 mostly, tips and tricks wrt our systems (kinda boring i know) 14:49:12 levy_: you mean useful? 14:49:44 should I ask a slime qjuestion here since in ##emacs I don't see any slime users? 14:50:11 Does anyone know why ~ would be bound to slime-sync-package-and-default-directory? 14:50:14 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:20 p0a: this isn't a bad place. the mailing list is pretty good too. 14:50:26 p0a: on my system, it's bound to C-c ~ 14:51:04 Hmm I see 14:51:49 p0a: I'm a slime user, just not an emacs whiz. 14:51:52 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 14:53:11 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-225-121.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:53:23 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 14:53:35 So I'll have to have a hook in slime-mode to rebound the key ~ to (self-insert)? 14:53:53 <_3b> p0a: are you using an old slime? 14:53:57 -!- ASau [n=user@host65-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 14:54:01 p0a: does it also get bound that way when you restart slime? 14:54:04 -!- angerman [n=angerman@p57A38F9F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:54:14 fwiw, you can just unbound it 14:54:21 (note: restarting the inferior lisp and restarting slime are two different things) 14:54:22 -!- Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@pppoe-88-147-225-8.san.ru] has left #lisp 14:54:25 but it's not slime who binds it 14:54:31 oh 14:57:43 stassats: Can't find how to unbind a key 14:57:43 http://www.delorie.com/gnu/docs/emacs/emacs_491.html 14:58:02 I tried (unbind-key "~") but that didn't work and I searched there and nothing, google too. 'unbind key emacs' 14:58:24 (global-unset-key "~") too 14:58:38 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-189.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:58:54 (global-set-key "~" nil) but you probably want self-insert-command 14:59:31 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.28.130] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:59:46 Well now it's undefined so I can't insert it lol 14:59:54 C-q ~ 15:00:07 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:00:18 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:00:37 -!- angerman_ [n=angerman@p57A3C08A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:01:13 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:01:32 Hmm, wouldn't load-time conditionals be nice? 15:01:57 As an addition to #+/#-. 15:02:18 eval-when? 15:02:23 and load-time-value 15:02:36 Tried (global-set-key "~" 'self-insert-command) and (global-set-key "~" self-insert-command) and (global-set-key "~" (self-insert-command)) 15:02:44 doesn't work 15:02:46 pyrolyte [n=pyrolyte@nat/cisco/x-b709919a1cc3dd8d] has joined #lisp 15:03:00 p0a: first should work 15:03:17 stassats, I'm not sure you can completely skip form processing. 15:03:53 deepfire: then you need read-time conditionals 15:04:03 stassats, how do you know what I need? 15:04:05 lnostdal: Annotated with a hot patch. 15:04:06 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:05:21 deepfire: you can make a load-time-conditional with load-time-value, I think. 15:05:48 pkhuong, works here 15:06:26 Adlai, in the end I want to be able to load fasls containing code referencing inexistent packages. 15:06:42 ugh, compiling recent sbcl doesn't make my machine happy 15:06:50 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:06 deepfire: symbol/package resolution is a read-time issue, I think. 15:07:11 By instructing the loader to skip these toplevel forms. 15:07:29 Adlai, try loading a fasl referencing a package you don't have. 15:08:09 -!- qebab [i=finnrobi@caracal.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:08:21 deepfire: a fasl already has instructions on searching for a package. You want to make a fasl that might have these referneces, but if the package isn't found, they're not read? 15:08:48 -!- nerdshark [n=dorkfish@74-131-35-150.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit ["WeeChat 0.3.0-rc1"] 15:09:03 (when (find-package ...) (eval (read "..."))) 15:09:19 Adlai, basically, I want a more generic mechanism to control the loader. 15:09:55 pkhuong, I was afraid the soulution would be like this.. 15:10:09 (when (find-package ...) (load "file-with-this-package")) 15:10:22 or just use ASDF to select components. 15:10:25 This is too coarse. 15:10:46 stassats: it doesn't work 15:10:50 I tried it and it doesn't get rebound 15:11:06 p0a: because it is not global key? 15:11:08 deepfire: seems to me like stassats's suggestion is exactly what you want. 15:11:26 Adlai, whichone? 15:11:58 pkhuong's solution is the closest, AFAICS. 15:12:08 p0a: (define-key slime-mode-map "~" 'self-insert-command) 15:12:38 oh, I didn't see that he was dealing with the entire file. 15:12:39 hmm. 15:12:58 Well, either you use a coarse solution, or you involve eval. 15:13:01 No win. 15:13:22 or you are doing something wrong 15:13:35 stassats, I don't need this. 15:13:39 -!- angerman__ [n=angerman@p57A3BF5C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:13:53 anybody good with tramp mode? #emacs isn't too helpful right now... 15:13:54 p0a: this bug was fixed in 2009-01-07 15:14:00 p0a: consider upgrading slime 15:14:11 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.29.34] has joined #lisp 15:14:55 angerman [n=angerman@p57A38B8B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:15:12 rswarbrick [n=user@host86-128-195-170.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:15:20 stassats, the danger inherent with defining "wrong" as "impossible or inconvenient with current tools" should be obvious. 15:15:46 i had a little "or" 15:16:41 Hi there. Is there any way to map a function over a variable number of sequences? What I'd like to do is something like (apply #'map nil #'myfun list-of-sequences). This won't work, since MAP isn't actually a function, but is there another approach? 15:17:10 map isn't a function? 15:17:15 err 15:17:16 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:18:06 Umm, not sure why I was certain it wasn't. 15:18:11 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:18:25 Gee whizz, that works :) Thanks for pointing out my idiocy... 15:22:08 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:28 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:24:09 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 15:28:13 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:50 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:29:27 pkhuong, confusing or similar naming of lvar-type vs. lvar-derived-type there .. lvar-type seems to be a "truncating version" of lvar-derived-type .. *shrug* .. thanks for the patch though :) 15:30:03 lnostdal: lvar-derived-type is the derived-type. lvar-type is for when you want a TYPEP-able type. 15:30:53 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-380068.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["leaving"] 15:31:20 Could have been avoided by representing multiple return values as multiple lvars, I guess. 15:31:22 typep doesn't handle multiple values? .. i did not know that 15:31:52 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.173.73] has joined #lisp 15:33:06 hmyah .. multiple values does seem to complicate things 15:34:08 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 15:34:18 hmm, maybe sbcl should have --require? 15:35:08 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:36:00 there is --eval '(require :blah)' ..? 15:36:50 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:17 lnostdal, there is a reason behind --load.. 15:38:11 Shell quoting is painful enough, which makes it more urgent, indeed. 15:38:20 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit ["Disconnecting from stoned server."] 15:38:33 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:42 *tcr* wonders if --load'ing from /dev/stdin and here-documents works 15:43:00 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:43:55 Yay, sb-posix has chroot! 15:44:06 tcr: why not just pipe into stdin directly? 15:44:10 I really didn't expect that. 15:44:11 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.173.73] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:45:20 Is there a way to get format to write numbers like 2.3e4 rather than 2.3d+4 ? 15:45:54 rswarbrick: sure, write 2.3e4. 15:46:01 Er, sorry. 15:46:15 I mean, I'd like to use (format nil "~E" 23000), say. 15:46:15 that's what it'll do by default, here. 15:46:31 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:46:56 Ahah: (format nil "~E" (coerce 0 'double-float)) 15:47:02 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:47:21 Should I coerce the doubles I'm giving it back to single floats? 15:47:39 (format t "~,,,,,,'ee" 2.3d+4) 15:47:41 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 15:47:45 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.29.34] has quit [Success] 15:48:05 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [] 15:48:39 Ah. "exponentchar". Thanks! 15:49:39 HG` [n=wells@xdslek241.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:50:17 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 15:55:12 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 15:58:18 -!- Noh-Wayey [i=HydraIRC@95.209.76.130.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:58:55 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:01:55 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:13 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:02:54 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177073072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:16 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:03:24 weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:03:48 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 16:04:06 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:11 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:05:36 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslek241.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:07:34 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:10:53 Guest1717 [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:05 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:12:07 -!- demmel [n=demmel@d057.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 16:12:16 is sb-heapdump being developed? 16:16:03 for very small values of being developed 16:16:16 bummer 16:17:18 i mean, it looks quite nice.. 16:17:49 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:18:01 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:24 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:24:31 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:24:48 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 16:27:13 _mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 16:29:05 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:29:51 dysinger [n=dysinger@98.246.183.155] has joined #lisp 16:30:58 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:31:45 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.238.60] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:33:32 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 16:34:10 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:38:59 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:40:29 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:46 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:40:47 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:43:18 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Success] 16:45:36 logBot7957 [n=logBot@59.92.158.225] has joined #lisp 16:53:24 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 16:55:10 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:55:17 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 16:56:32 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 16:57:45 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-134-207.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:49 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-78.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:57:57 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-78.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:58:07 Nshag [n=shag@Mix-Orleans-106-2-78.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:58:12 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-219-223.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:59:24 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:02:38 browsing code of alexandria: http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/7001/screenshot1hvi.png 17:03:02 weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:03:08 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:04:31 levy_: cool 17:04:46 that's... odd 17:05:00 I wonder was it for compatibility with some pre-cl thing with no mapchar 17:05:09 (in any case, it is no death-kitten ;) ) 17:05:13 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-80-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:05:37 rsynnott_: that mapcar is sbcl's definition... ;) 17:06:08 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:06:41 -!- Guest1717 [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:07:21 now it is pretty easy (a few lines of code) to create syntax-highlighted, cross referencing source code presentation for any definition (file, etc.) in the live server 17:07:41 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:08:07 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:42 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:08:54 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:36 the lengths to which some people will go to avoid writing actual documentation :) 17:10:40 HG` [n=wells@xdslek241.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:11:42 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:11:53 whats generating that cross linked documentation ? 17:11:56 well, kind of true, but i'm going to use that for code snippets in tutorials too 17:12:35 Dawgmatix_, a CL web server, based on introspection, original source code and a CL reader 17:12:57 Dawgmatix_, and it is in no ways static 17:13:01 nice :) 17:13:39 levy_: The syntax highlighting code could be a bit better, (dotimes (elt ...)) the ELT is colored specially 17:13:46 do you use cl-colorize? 17:13:47 you see, people always preach about self documenting code... some take it serious... :) 17:14:07 any way I could replicate this setup ? 17:15:07 Dawgmatix_, it's BSD, just not yet publicly available, actually the server will tell you how to do that 17:15:28 okay :) 17:15:35 tcr: that project is hard to find, or my google skills evaporated... 17:15:56 tcr, no it's not using cl-colorize 17:16:08 attila_lendvai: I don't know if cl-colorize does it better, it's used by lisppaste fwiw 17:16:08 weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:16:15 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:17:01 levy_: The easiest thing to improve is to copy the define-caller-pattern definitions from xref.lisp (e.g. in your slime checkout), and use that information. 17:18:05 *weirdo* finally managed to get two separate font-lock colors for emacs in the same emacs image with emacslient, one for tty and one for gtk 17:18:18 -!- logBot7957 [n=logBot@59.92.158.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:19:18 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:19:27 tcr, it does not walk the code yet (with cl-walker), just reads (to keep the original indentation) with pjb's reader lib and syntax highlights based on that 17:19:37 that's why elt is colorized as a CL symbol 17:20:39 Yeah walker would be better, even though not even that would be able to make it work in all cases 17:20:41 if we were walking the code we could as well tell you that elt is a variable reference 17:21:12 i did not think about that deeper, but i guess it's doable (even if not 100% precise) 17:21:58 tcr, yeah you are right, but i'm satisfied with 100-1E-6% ;-) 17:22:30 Right, but you can easily reuse the define-caller-pattern from xref.lisp; you'll probably be able to fix this for all CL macros with them in half an hour 17:22:47 they tell you what forms of a macro are evaluated and which are not 17:23:34 weirdo2 [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:24:31 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:24:55 levy_: How do you track variable references? Look up the sourrinding cons in a EQ hash-table? 17:24:59 surrounding 17:25:15 what the hell is wrong with erc. 17:25:25 tcr: cl-walker should deal with all that -- unless i'm badly missing something 17:25:26 -!- weirdo2 [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:25:26 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:25:50 claar: draw ((1 2)(3 4)(5 6)) 17:25:51 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/20 17:26:24 attila_lendvai: The question is how you associate from stuff appearing in the macroexpansion back to the original code (before the expansion) 17:26:29 tcr: cl-walker keeps an updated environment, calls macroexpand and keeps the original sexp->walked-node mapping, too 17:27:05 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-152-32.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 17:27:13 Hm I can't recall that, I'll refresh my memory 17:27:18 tcr: ok, i don't have a clear answer to that. although cl-walker should be close to deal with it 17:27:45 *attila_lendvai* needs to leave soon 17:29:41 weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:29:56 hopefully it works now 17:31:04 i'm leaving too, bb 17:31:11 -!- levy_ [n=levy@apn-94-44-3-218.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 17:32:10 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CD06.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:59 weirdo: happens to me too... 17:34:27 (random disconnections when my internet connection stays connected) 17:34:50 luckily, doesn't happen to me 17:36:28 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 17:37:03 i finally mended emacs to usable shape 17:37:44 erc no longer beeps when my nick is "said" by a response to /names 17:37:55 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 17:38:12 and these damn colorsets work for ttys and guis with emacsclient, too 17:38:29 hm, I couldn't get ERC to beep when my name was said. 17:38:35 (at all) 17:39:34 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-152-32.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:39 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 17:39:55 that's good, because when i had beeps on incoming messages, they remained in my head when i wasn't connected, even when not near computer 17:40:12 weirdo pasted "for Adlai" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85270 17:41:31 dysinger` [n=dysinger@98.246.183.155] has joined #lisp 17:43:34 hm, let's see if this works. 17:43:39 weirdo: ping. 17:43:44 Adlai, ping 17:43:50 \o/ 17:44:06 thank you weirdo. 17:44:13 i'm eager to help 17:44:18 I actually made a slight change to your elisp though 17:44:43 Oh it's fun to dispell random comments at work..had someone, today, tell me that his advisor asked him to change code from lisp to C because lisp is slow. 17:45:11 dman` [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:53 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:46:03 hm... sometimes lisppaste.el works, sometimes it doesn't. Gah. 17:46:09 that joke is too old, it's not funny 17:46:55 stassats: Joke? if you mean what I said - I can promise it's not a joke, he didn't understand streams, files, and encoding well so I pointed him to the PCL chapter on parsing binary files so he could understand it better. 17:47:34 stassats: Happen about an hour ago, I told him to do some research and try stuff like optimization flags and dumping the image from sbcl, as well as making sure the code was right 17:47:40 stassats: and this happened less than an hour ago 17:47:40 Adlai, the (message ...) form is forgotten debugging code 17:47:42 Adlai annotated #85270 "dealing with visible bells" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85270#1 17:47:58 -!- dman` [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:48:10 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@98.246.183.155] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:12 weirdo: good to know, I'll delete that. 17:48:21 TDT: that some people don't know lisp and have some wrong preconceptions is nothing new 17:48:43 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["restarting ERC"] 17:48:46 Adlai, do you know how to set erc-fill module to fill sanely? 17:48:48 <_mathrick> attila_lendvai: I still hate your #t #f thing 17:48:55 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 17:49:18 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:49:18 stassats: Yeah, I know, still kinda dumb though. 17:49:39 dman` [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:04 should be working now. Thanks again, weirdo. 17:50:15 :-) 17:50:52 stassats, from their standpoint they have a valuable piece of knowledge they have preserved from the past :-) 17:51:36 -!- dman` [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:51:52 -!- dysinger` is now known as dysinger 17:52:11 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:18 and this isn't limited to lisp, actually 17:52:59 Yes, sorta generic psychological phenomenon. 17:53:16 The problem I guess is that things move quickly in IT. 17:53:29 jao [n=jao@127.Red-213-98-196.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:01 mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-6d750e39cdd08b6f] has joined #lisp 17:54:35 -!- mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-6d750e39cdd08b6f] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:54:42 And people apply the wrong scale to estimate the timeframe of applicability of their knowledge. 17:54:49 mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-6ebfc46f992955f6] has joined #lisp 17:56:31 if someone calls programming languages "technologies", what's wrong with that person? 17:57:04 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:58:47 weirdo: do they also call human beings "resources"? 17:58:47 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has left #lisp 17:59:27 Xach, most definitely not 17:59:57 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslek241.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:01:44 testing static filling in ERC. don't mind me 18:01:58 okay. all's checked out and good to go 18:02:13 TDT: so did you correct him/the boss's impression? 18:02:31 or advisor 18:05:41 TDT: People with that opinion will usually not be convinced by facts. 18:05:44 -!- mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-6ebfc46f992955f6] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:05:58 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-29e270abae2b084b] has joined #lisp 18:06:07 er, I meant that for mathrick 18:06:51 svens [n=svens@87.76.102.249] has joined #lisp 18:07:48 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@75.42.225.23] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:07:49 -!- svens [n=svens@87.76.102.249] has left #lisp 18:08:02 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 18:08:24 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177073072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:08:37 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:11:51 beach: I meant the person to whom it was advised, ie. advisee, not the advisor himself 18:12:08 to correct the wrong impression given by misguded advice 18:12:45 mathrick: That might have a somewhat greater chance of being listened to, if done quickly. 18:12:54 laurus [n=laurus@adsl-71-156-15-164.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:58 -!- laurus [n=laurus@adsl-71-156-15-164.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 18:13:17 -!- ramenboy [n=user@ip98-165-129-233.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:13:34 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:13:34 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:14:49 This is all on my mind again, because I just spent a week discussing with my friend Lisa Feldman Barrett over a number of lunches and dinners about psychology, and she was the one that inspired my article on the psychology of learning. 18:15:14 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177073072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:36 a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has joined #lisp 18:16:01 http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Essays/psychology.html for those who don't know. 18:16:11 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:17:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases is an interesting list 18:18:57 alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-42-225-23.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:13 stassats: Yes, very interesting. Though, I suspect the way the article is presented will make pretty much nobody recognize himself or herself as having a problem. 18:21:15 salva_ [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 18:21:35 There's a bias for that. 18:21:57 Xach: There would be. 18:24:09 Ogedei` [n=user@e178232129.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:25:08 any nice way of tracing local functions? 18:25:18 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:25:56 weirdo: format? 18:26:10 i was afraid so 18:26:17 Fare: Hello. 18:26:28 weirdo: defmacro traced-flet :) 18:26:38 weirdo: depends on the lisp. i think some of them let you specify that as an option. 18:26:41 hmmmmmmm 18:26:47 Adlai`: macrolet traced-flet? 18:26:47 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 18:27:03 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 18:27:21 without-package-locks macrolet flet? 18:27:59 I was thinking more along the lines of a macro that would stick a format statement before the body of each local function. 18:28:13 ie, the macro would translate to a flet form, with the inserted format statements. 18:28:21 s/translate/macroexpand/ 18:29:05 hmm there's some portability library for package locks lying around 18:29:09 just don't remember what its name was 18:29:56 Right, but what I was thinking was something you could wrap around an existing function definition that wouldn't involve rewriting the various flet / labels forms within it. 18:30:00 starting with "trivial"? 18:30:34 SUBST on FLET :) 18:31:54 nyef: hm, that would be harder, yes. 18:32:26 a code walker would do... 18:32:36 let's form a committee 18:35:53 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslgy114.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:39:42 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178223175.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:39:53 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:40:56 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:40:59 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:56 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has left #lisp 18:42:00 antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:10 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:44:36 stassats pasted "flet-trace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85275 18:44:53 Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@95.84.32.115] has joined #lisp 18:45:05 evaluation concerns are left to the reader 18:45:13 Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:43 i mean, name clashes concerns 18:46:12 if they are 18:46:36 *tcr* wonders about the purpose of TRACE's :REPORT SB-EXT:PROFILE which the docstring talks about but is not even implemented 18:47:25 loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has joined #lisp 18:48:17 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:51:23 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:06 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@98.246.183.155] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:53:11 tcr: Is it in cmucl? 18:53:38 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:53:47 how about wrapping some forms in a macro that SUBSTs a few symbols? 18:53:48 :) 18:54:02 *weirdo* sleepy 18:56:43 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 18:57:45 -!- Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@95.84.32.115] has left #lisp 18:58:15 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177073072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:58:17 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177073072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:44 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 19:01:16 Hello, in centos x86_64 when load slime with sbcl from emacs I get a "Dont't know how to REQUIRE SB-BSD-SOCKETS " some idea to solve this, thanks 19:02:08 salva_: set SBCL_HOME properly 19:02:45 thanks 19:02:48 -!- pyrolyte [n=pyrolyte@nat/cisco/x-b709919a1cc3dd8d] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:02:54 nyef: the docstring says it's an sbcl extension :) Vaporware! 19:03:20 tcr: Nice. 19:03:33 Is there CL code for arranging executables into shell pipes? 19:03:43 pyrolyte [n=pyrolyte@cpe-024-211-210-164.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:04:10 something like popen? 19:04:47 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:05:59 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 19:06:53 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:00 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:09:11 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:09:52 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:11:42 tcr, preferably something as close as possible to something like (pipe (cat "/etc/passwd") (sed "s/a/b/")). 19:12:17 I.e. something that would handle forking, stream setup, shovelling data between processes.. 19:12:37 I'm pretty close to writing it myself. 19:12:48 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-205-30-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:12:49 Don't want to reinvent the wheel, though. 19:14:04 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-80-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:34 deepfire, you can call "sh -c" with a formatted string 19:16:51 since you only need executables, not lisp streams 19:17:33 deepfire: scsh does that, but that's not CL code. 19:17:36 deepfire, quote program names and arguments with \'s. don't surround them with ', since then semantics for quoting "'"'s are tricky 19:18:09 well, not that tricky. but i'd recommend doing it that way instead of dup2(2). 19:18:53 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-14-61.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:21:10 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 19:21:54 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177073072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:22:05 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-24-182.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:28:32 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:29:53 Hi all 19:30:00 anyone could tell me if there is any _extensible_ format-like avalaible there? 19:30:24 format is extensible 19:30:28 clhs ~/ 19:30:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ced.htm 19:30:51 davazp: drew mcdermott has an alternative to format, but i don't know much about it. it might be worth a look. 19:30:57 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:31:19 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:31:48 ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 19:32:16 depfire: you can do that with run-program 19:32:26 davazp: he describes it here: http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/dvm/format-stinks.html 19:32:51 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 19:32:52 stream from one command send to another (sbcl specific of course) 19:33:08 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:33:09 think that ccl also has somethig like that 19:33:09 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:33:30 Rajin_ [n=Rajin@d127110.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 19:33:30 stassats: I know this feature, but I would like something more expressive 19:33:39 Xach: thanks, I will take a look it 19:38:14 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:40:01 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32CCBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:08 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:41:58 The good thing about format strings with string substitution is that it makes translation work better. 19:42:31 I certainly have no love for flow control-strewn format strings like "~:[{~;[~]~:{~S~:[->~S~;~*~]~:^ ~}~:[~; ~]~ ~{~S->~^ ~}~:[~; ~]~[~*~;->~S~;->~*~]~:[}~;]~]" though. :) 19:44:31 That's pretty. 19:45:00 antoszka, cze 19:45:06 weirdo: Cze. 19:46:22 is it possible in SLIME to draw menus for completion instead of using other-window like in climacs/swine? 19:47:03 I doubt you can do it as nicely as in Climacs... but try asking on #emacs. 19:47:14 SLIME uses Emacs' completion stuff. 19:47:15 weirdo: I don't think emacs supports making arbitrary menu windows 19:47:29 but #emacs knows for sure 19:47:39 -!- Rajin_ [n=Rajin@d127110.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:47:55 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 19:48:28 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:51:18 minion, memo for tcr: there don't seem to be any highly-visible bugs in SLIME with a downcasing printer. thanks for the warning, though. 19:51:18 Remembered. I'll tell tcr when he/she/it next speaks. 19:52:16 whoa look at that! http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/AutoComplete 19:52:55 yeah, that's what i was just trying to find 19:53:51 so which one of us writes a SLIME contrib? :) 19:54:56 i'm not interested in it really 19:55:02 weirdo: Not as good looking as the climacs stuff, but still looks better than a new window (in most cases). 19:55:53 other-window keeps messing up window layout, too 19:56:13 Emacs completion windows are the most horrible thing imaginable. 19:56:27 and i like them... 19:57:07 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:57:24 i hate this other-window stuff with no button to dismiss them 19:57:37 instead i have to do it manually, that's why i started using frames 19:57:40 C-g? 19:57:50 so i could just delete-other-windows 19:58:01 stassats, no, that doesn't work 19:58:06 c-g in case of completion 19:58:38 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:58:46 well it won't work for C-h foo or ERC completion 19:59:00 but better than nothing, i guess 19:59:23 -!- ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:59:27 at least these windows use only one buffer name, nothing could be worse than having # 19:59:29 works for C-h foo 19:59:30 "C-x 1" works for "C-h f foo". or "C-x o q" 19:59:58 Sometimes those windows go away, sometimes they don't. Then you press, say, c-x 1, and you are left with one window, but *not* the right one (even though focus was in the one you wished had stayed). 20:00:02 It's a mess. 20:00:14 foom, yeah, and it forced me to only have one "real" window per frame 20:00:31 before then i kept elaborate window layouts only to have them destroyed by other-window. the horror, the horror 20:00:35 weirdo: oh, right. 20:00:48 emacs23 changed the way that worked significantly 20:00:56 (for the worse, IMO, but maybe you'd like it) 20:00:58 you know, like, two columns, one code, second split in hyperspec and REPL 20:01:11 now it seems to like to split windows a lot more than it used to 20:01:11 then other-window comes along and stomps over it like a sand castle 20:01:35 i just bound delete-other-windows to M-1 20:01:46 it used to just stomp over your other window, now it likes to split the one you're in. 20:02:10 hey, it isn't #emacs 20:02:24 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:05:04 hey, no one is talking on topic so it's not like we disturb them or anything 20:05:22 silence is on topic 20:05:27 this is not the prevailing philosophy, weirdo 20:06:02 although slime completion is tangentially on topic and I'm currently interested 20:07:30 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 20:08:26 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:50 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:11:57 \o/ 20:12:36 (on a similarly not-really-on-topic note, I have a working emacs-daemon with correct ssh-agent support for my use case) 20:12:41 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:12:48 i'm going to learn some CLIM in my spare time and hack climacs until it's ready 20:12:56 emacs is too much of a liability 20:13:04 Hacking on Climacs is great fun too! 20:13:07 beach and others said one can do wonders with CLIM 20:13:11 There's lots of low-hanging fruit. 20:13:21 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32CCBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:47 Krystof, what's the speed of remove emacsclient as compared to x11 or vnc? 20:13:52 s/remove/remote 20:14:00 I don't do remote emacsclient 20:16:05 http://www.cx4a.org/pub/ac-demo/ac-demo.html 20:16:07 impressive 20:16:11 weirdo: What protocol does emacs speak to emacsclient? 20:16:38 antoszka, i have no idea, but i draw a conjecture that it's more efficient than x11 20:16:44 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-109-30.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:30 weirdo: I suppose it would be. 20:17:38 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-108-3.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 20:17:47 weirdo: Pretty much anything is :) 20:17:58 O RLY? 20:18:08 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:18:48 Nah. 20:19:36 -!- antoszka is now known as bruner 20:19:44 -!- bruner is now known as antoszka 20:25:26 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:53 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:23 fgtech [n=federico@host100-218-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:31:09 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 20:31:56 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-72-160.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:34:00 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:38:29 -!- cyb3r3li0g [n=eguzman@fwabq.cvimellesgriot.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:41:57 (setq rest (rest rest)), hooray for lisp2! 20:41:57 tcr, memo from weirdo: there don't seem to be any highly-visible bugs in SLIME with a downcasing printer. thanks for the warning, though. 20:43:01 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:43:29 hi in sbcl i put (require :asdf) and get a NIL , in the asdf docs says that comes installed with sbcl , some sugestion? thanks 20:43:34 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:43:57 why don't you like nil? 20:44:13 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 20:44:59 salva_: nil does not mean failure in this case. 20:45:05 jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 20:45:08 i'd don't know, i thik nil is that don't load, i'm very beginer 20:45:19 ok thanks 20:45:34 -!- jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:45:47 jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 20:46:02 is sombody using weblocks for web applications? 20:46:04 speaking of emacs deficiencies 20:46:19 i haven't really used the clim and symbolics command lines 20:46:21 salva_: I was for a while 20:46:37 but they seem to be much more powerful than M-x 20:46:50 and they can be used both as a REPL and a command-line interpreter 20:47:07 eh? 20:47:15 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:47:27 saikat_: are using oher framework 20:47:42 sorry? 20:48:12 oh you mean am i using another framework now? 20:48:15 not a lisp one, no 20:48:29 thanks sorry for my languge 20:48:35 it's fine =) 20:48:45 there is also UCW 20:48:55 that and weblocks are the two main lisp web frameworks as far as i know 20:49:10 http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/ 20:49:21 weirdo: In Emacs, there's M-: 20:49:26 i haven't used it, but i think drewc is a maintainer 20:49:30 could be great a GUI squeak for lisp, i think 20:52:10 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:37 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-78-106.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:01:49 demo 21:05:09 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:06:25 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:12:08 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:18 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 21:14:32 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:17:24 -!- rsynnott_ is now known as rsynnott 21:17:49 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-152-32.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 21:17:51 -!- angerman [n=angerman@p57A38B8B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 21:24:32 Guest493` [n=user@pD9E2CE9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:41 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:25:37 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:30 how many words do simple-arrays take up in either SBCL and CCL? 21:28:25 depends on its type 21:28:49 hm. How big are heterogenous vectors, then? 21:29:02 ah, so you mean simple-vectors :) 21:29:13 depends on their type, again 21:29:28 (simple-vector  (and vector simple-array)) 21:30:00 hm. So there's no one size that can be sort-of expected if you say "I'll just toss whatever into it"? 21:30:08 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 21:30:15 sykopomp: the relevant factor, iirc, is whether it has a fill-pointer or is adjustable 21:30:25 there are specialized vectors 21:30:33 he said heterogenous 21:30:36 no fill-pointer, and not adjustable. 21:30:54 oh, of type t 21:31:00 IIRC, if you have a simple-vector that is not adjustable and has no fill pointer, in sbcl that's one block of memory with a header. I could be wrong though. 21:31:06 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:41 if that's true it would presumably have one or two words for header plus as many words as elements 21:31:42 sykopomp: I think it's two words as header, + block of memory consisting of the pointers to the elements... anyway that's what's in my mind 21:31:42 can _simple_-vector be adjustable or has fill-pointer? 21:31:57 clhs simple-vector 21:31:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_smp_ve.htm 21:32:21 tcr: so two words as header + 1 word for each pointer? 21:32:30 yes 21:32:38 s/pointer/lispobj/ if you prefer 21:32:52 alright. Thanks :) 21:33:06 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-96-75.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:18 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:33:45 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:34:27 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:54 ccl's TIME is more precise, than sbcl's: (time (make-array 10)) => 96 bytes of memory allocated. 21:35:06 stassats: sbcl's goes by pages or such 21:35:42 kpreid: and thus not suitable for that purpose 21:36:03 sb-introspect:allocation-information will contain that information eventually 21:37:27 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:37:34 stassats: what you do is, do it in a loop by some large round number 21:37:44 e.g. (time (loop repeat 1024 do (setf * (make-array 10)))) 21:37:52 then divide the numbers you get 21:37:59 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [] 21:38:01 (the setf is there so that the make-array isn't just optimized out) 21:38:27 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@207.88.215.13.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:34 nyef, hi 21:38:42 nyef, are you near Boston these days? 21:38:54 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host100-218-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:38:56 For values of "near" equal to "two hours drive away". 21:40:08 But that's near enough to be able to show up for boston-lisp-meeting and similar events. 21:40:10 kpreid: results are not the same among the runs, so it's good for estimation 21:40:38 well, average behavior is usually more useful anyway. 21:41:08 Fare: to whom should i submit a request for reimbursement? i was tempted to the boston lisp meeting by the free food :( 21:41:33 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.192.142] has joined #lisp 21:41:35 -!- Guest49360 [n=user@pD9E2CB20.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:41:36 send it to me 21:41:40 sorry about that 21:41:58 nyef, would you... speak at the BLM? 21:42:22 Fare: You mean, beyond my lightning talk from last time? 21:42:35 nyef: I have the first slide for your forth talk. Autographed, even! 21:42:59 Fare: We were hoping to see you last Friday 21:43:00 Xach: Heh. But it's a Lisp meeting, not a Forth meeting. 21:43:52 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 21:44:29 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-212-154.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:50 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:46:54 Xach: I missed my plane :( :( :( 21:47:07 Fare: oh, sorry to hear that. 21:48:46 -!- Ogedei` [n=user@e178232129.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 21:48:55 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:49:38 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-84-204.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:49:52 got to see more friends in Paris, in exchange for those in Boston. 21:51:47 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-84-204.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:55:21 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:23 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:01:47 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:05 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 22:04:50 -!- Nshag [n=shag@Mix-Orleans-106-2-78.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:06:31 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-84-204.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 22:06:49 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:01 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:09:04 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-84-204.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:09:34 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:13:16 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 22:14:00 Anyone knows of examples of hairy extended loops? I want to feed them to my loop pprinter. 22:16:16 tcr: the LOOP of DOOM was doomish, but not all that hairy, i suppose. 22:16:21 tcr: how hairy is hairy? 22:16:40 lots of nesting 22:16:43 nah, nvm, this example isn't that bad. 22:17:38 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:20:56 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@144.198.182.10] has joined #lisp 22:21:24 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:22:03 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:07 for someone with expiriance with DB API's 22:22:20 is it posible to get stream or something like that when reading big table ? 22:24:27 -!- vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:24:38 vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 22:24:53 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229172098.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 22:24:58 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:30:54 khumba [n=khumba@142.231.69.150] has joined #lisp 22:33:04 clim text-field 22:33:04 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/30-4.html#_1854 22:33:29 milanj: you mean a cursor ? 22:36:44 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:37:23 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 22:38:53 fe[nl]ix: probably :) 22:39:00 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@144.198.182.10] has quit [] 22:39:10 Fare: oh - are you not going to HAR? (: 22:39:33 (not that you could decide to now, it's booked up anyway) 22:39:49 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:40:02 HAR? nope. 22:40:09 I used up all my vacation time 22:40:19 oh well 22:40:35 antifuchs, msteele did a lot of ADG hacking 22:40:41 oh cool 22:40:47 parts of the code you wouldn't recognize 22:40:56 I'd hope so (-; 22:41:00 fe[nl]ix, thanks for pointing me in right direction 22:42:05 however, there are a lot of ugly things that don't seem to work too well with QRes. Some heuristics are too aggressive, others too conservative. And more discrimination sometimes would require a full CL-in-CL implementation. 22:45:17 Is #+foo ,(bar) well defined? 22:45:49 Fare: yeah, sometimes full cl semantics are necessary to know what's going on /-: 22:50:22 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.181.86] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:50:29 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:53:47 -!- pyrolyte [n=pyrolyte@cpe-024-211-210-164.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:54:04 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:54:15 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Success] 22:54:34 Fare: CL-in-CL implementation? 22:54:43 keithr [n=user@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:03 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:24 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 22:57:41 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 22:58:07 http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Simple_Windowed_Application#Common_Lisp -- anyone care to improve my CLIM code? 23:02:09 -!- Bootvis [i=bob@baltar.lan.endoria.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:03:22 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:04:20 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 23:04:24 hi i'm with clbuild trying to install bordeaux-threads and get a darcs http 404 error, is trying to get a file _darcs/inventory that don't exists, how can solve that? 23:05:27 -!- Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:05:44 Bootvis [i=bob@baltar.lan.endoria.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:55 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:06:08 well i can install it manually suppose 23:06:12 thanks 23:06:12 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:06:31 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-152-32.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:40 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 23:06:52 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:08:45 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 23:08:48 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-76-115-73-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:52 ... It occurs to me that imperative and object-oriented programs tend to be descriptions of change, or process, and that "logic" programs tend to be descriptions of relationships, but I'm having a hard time figuring out where "functional" programming sits. 23:09:09 kpreid: the spec can be read to allow a pane that says how many clicks were made 23:09:33 You mean, within itself? Sure, but that's not the task. 23:09:42 so it would make sense to keep the number of clicks in a slot in the application frame, and increment this on button click, then trigger a refresh of the pane 23:10:00 Ah. 23:10:03 then you can separate out the formatting into a display function 23:10:20 no more non-editable text-editor (: 23:10:23 Yes, that would be good. But what's this about "can be read"? 23:10:24 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 23:10:41 I originally had a text-field but I couldn't figure out how to make it more than about 8 characters wide. 23:10:43 ah, well, spec says it should be in a label 23:10:58 clim label 23:10:58 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for label. 23:10:59 so :text-field and :text-editor are already not quite right 23:11:04 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B169D24.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:11:21 nyef: functional programming looks different at different levels, I think, because it's pretty layered by nature. 23:11:25 clairvy [n=clairvy@219-106-253-18.cust.bit-drive.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:11:27 clim labeling 23:11:27 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for labeling. 23:11:35 ah, double #\l 23:11:37 clim labelling 23:11:37 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/29-3.html#_1635 23:11:54 Adlai: Yeah, but that could be said of most or all programming paradigms. 23:12:03 which isn't the traditional meaning of label (as I suppose the rosetta spec asks for) either (: 23:12:04 antifuchs: hm...what does labelling have to do with a pane that draws custom text? 23:12:12 nothing really 23:12:13 bah 23:12:42 anyway. my recommendation stands: display function plus application-pane should beat the text-editor solution for clarity and niceness 23:12:44 Oh, I see, you said "the spec" and I read "the clim spec" 23:12:51 yeah, sorry 23:12:58 that was the rosetta spec always (: 23:13:30 nyef: one thing that I associate with functional programming is orthogonality 23:13:40 "Unix philosophy" 23:14:00 Yeah, but that's not quite what I'm driving at. 23:14:19 ... And dinner is ready, so this will have to wait for a bit. :-/ 23:14:44 ' 23:14:57 wrong keyboard 23:15:36 nyef: oversimplification : when you have a list of 'commands' modifying the current state, it's imperative. when you have a combination of functions receiving and returning immutable values without modifying any global state, it's functional 23:16:46 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@207.88.215.13.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [] 23:16:55 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:17:19 sad0ur_ [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 23:18:57 aw, :display-time :command-loop doesn't respond to the button. 23:19:57 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:19:59 right. it should be :display-time nil, and you do a (redisplay-frame-pane ...) 23:20:15 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 23:20:21 hrm? I read as t is what I want 23:20:28 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:20:46 -!- rswarbrick [n=user@host86-128-195-170.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has left #lisp 23:20:55 oh, you're right 23:20:58 initial display should happen 23:21:09 I have display-time t and setf pane-needs-redisplay t, but it's not redrawing at all... Or maybe not changing. 23:21:10 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:21:13 alternatively, you could make a command and put it on the command menu 23:21:21 it'll look like a button initially (-: 23:21:28 and on classic clim, there won't be a way to tell really (-; 23:21:37 right 23:21:42 there is that. 23:21:54 but why isn't my pane redisplaying when I (setf (pane-needs-redisplay the-label) t)? 23:21:58 setf pane-needs-redisplay needs a pass through the command loop 23:22:02 and that doesn't happen on button presses 23:22:04 ah 23:22:09 clim is freaky. 23:22:09 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for is freaky.. 23:22:11 so redisplay-frame-pane should do it 23:22:14 hahahaha 23:22:25 it's like buttons were an afterthought :) 23:22:36 I think they were a clim2 addition 23:22:54 or possibly part of the refactoring to make gadgets less of a pane 23:22:56 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:22:58 who needs buttons 23:23:01 pain arghl 23:23:08 when you have a repl :-P 23:24:00 antifuchs: ok, set it to use redisplay-frame-pane but I had to use :force-p to to get it to do anything. 23:24:10 then it died with too many args... hm 23:24:20 I see, those were passed to the display function. 23:24:35 ah (: 23:24:42 oops, paren screwup 23:24:57 That's better. Never mind that. 23:26:26 Now, is there any particularly nice way to compute a reasonable size for my application pane? 23:28:41 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:58 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:29:03 you can use the (vertically ) layout spec with a fraction 23:29:28 but the way you're doing looks way more advanced than that (: 23:29:41 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:29:54 I mean in terms of the text size. 23:30:02 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:04 oh 23:30:12 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:30:19 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:00 you can give the pane :min-width/:max-width and :width initargs 23:31:01 http://bauhh.dyndns.org/clim-spec/29-3.html#_6530 23:31:18 that /should/ work with (30 :character) measures 23:32:01 ah, (30 :character) is what I wanted to know 23:32:25 koollman: Yes, but... as I said, "imperative" programs are a description of -process-. "Functional" programs don't seem to fit the same model, so what model do they fit? 23:32:33 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:33:22 -!- khumba [n=khumba@142.231.69.150] has quit ["Oyasumi."] 23:33:48 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:35:07 nyef: 'function' (mathematical ones). Or if you prefer, 'lambda-calculus', at the core. 23:35:22 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CD06.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:35:48 -!- [df]_ [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:35:57 koollman: I can be as imperative as I want while passing immutable functions and data around. In fact, such code will likely have more passing around of functions than usual. 23:35:58 [df] [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:56 nyef: What does "description of process" even mean? 23:37:01 pkhuong: which differenciation would you add/change in my succint description ? 23:37:09 demmel: 'algorithm' 23:37:10 :) 23:37:13 nyef: imperative - description of step-by-step process, just like you would explain it to a small child. functional - describing through equation instead of individual steps 23:37:23 jaoswald [n=user@cpe-74-73-18-205.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:38:25 substitution model step-by-step? 23:38:36 ... Ah, so it's somewhat a description of the relation between the inputs and outputs of a function. 23:38:41 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:51 koollman: How is a function program not an algorithm? 23:39:05 koollman: functional* 23:39:26 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslgy114.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:40:16 nyef: mathematical function that is. 23:40:44 demmel: I haven't said that. But it was one possible answer to your question 23:41:51 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 23:42:14 koollman: I don't think you can capture "functional" exactly in words. is interesting discussion, but there's a danger of "No true scotsman", with things like FP is when one minimises state (dangerously ill-defined word here) to make program analysis and comprehension simple. [which then leads to the circular argument than FP is simple to analyse because otherwise it's not FP] 23:44:36 good night 23:45:07 antifuchs: thanks for the help, it's well done now 23:45:54 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [] 23:46:40 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:00 -!- jaoswald [n=user@cpe-74-73-18-205.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:47:14 excellent (: 23:59:27 -!- Hun [n=hun@82.149.80.128] has quit [Remote closed the connection]