00:00:19 i mean, the rest of the chunk had to be rewritten and all 00:02:21 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:02:55 it hadn't 00:04:15 gonzojive_ [n=red@128.12.64.26] has joined #lisp 00:04:49 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:05:03 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:05:09 fe[nl]ix: The extra tag bit or two required. 00:07:33 :overwrite... :supersede... bah.. i knew what i meant! 00:08:45 mogunus` [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:54 saikat__ [n=saikat@adsl-99-189-162-6.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:54 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-99-189-162-6.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:10:07 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:10:21 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:11:01 -!- mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:11:11 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["restart"] 00:11:44 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-70-156.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:12:12 drrrrrewc 00:12:14 Demosthenex [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 00:12:59 mr xach 00:15:24 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:15:32 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.176.112] has left #lisp 00:15:35 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:18:43 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:19:29 why did the CL committee include so many legacy stuff? they could have made CL-COMPAT for that purpose 00:20:40 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Success] 00:21:01 you could as well pretend that there's no legacy stuff 00:21:03 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:21:55 well but that makes for steeper learning curve 00:22:13 not that lisp is particularly hard 00:22:25 weirdo: necessary for backward compatibility. It was either that, or not getting a standard widespread enough 00:22:29 Yeah, ignore CAR and CDR and just use FIRST and REST... 00:22:34 lol 00:22:45 i love my CAR and CDR 00:22:53 *p_l* prefers to use car/cdr/etc 00:23:13 car and cdr for conses, first and rest for lists 00:23:25 though, i use car and cdr for both 00:24:00 I love car and cdr, they are simple, short and to the poiunt 00:24:25 *point 00:24:29 weirdo: what legacy stuff are you talking about? 00:25:17 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcm230.osnanet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 00:25:22 SET, GENTEMP 00:25:53 how does that raise the learning curve? 00:25:55 just ignore it. 00:26:09 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:26:16 stassats: Abstracting the data structure is a good idea, of course, but sometimes the special characteristics of the underlying data structure limit the ability to do so (efficiently, anyway). I'm not sure if that will be an issue here or not. 00:26:53 Xach, CL packages are flat and browsing through the symbol list there's lots of pocket lint 00:27:09 but i'm not a newbie anymore so it doesn't affect me 00:27:37 weirdo: Think of it as training not to use the symbol list as a tutorial. 00:27:46 CL is not really optimized at newbies, so... 00:27:47 :) 00:27:54 [ot] isn't a steep learning curve /good/? 00:28:11 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:28:35 demmel, depends -- better to have a steep learning curve that gives you maximum power at the end of day (vim, emacs), instead of a flat line that gives you no power (notepad). 00:29:12 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:29:18 lambda calculus has flat learning curve 00:29:35 don't ruin my argument! 00:29:40 i mean: steeper curve -> aquire knowledge more quickly 00:29:40 emacs has a spiral learning curve... 00:29:51 p_l, I like that picture :) 00:29:56 Languages don't have learning curves, people do. 00:30:03 p_l: i think its complex in fact 00:30:34 demmel: but you need more energy to climb it 00:31:21 -!- saikat__ is now known as saikat_ 00:32:40 demmel: I think it's at least a 4D curve :P 00:32:43 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-47-35.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:32:46 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-99-189-162-6.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 00:33:02 :P 00:33:11 wiki is so helpful 00:33:16 "The familiar expression "steep learning curve" may refer alternately to rapid learning that is easy, or especially hard, or to steady progress that is increasingly difficult. Which is referred to needs to be clarified by context. The difference is specifically whether one is referring to the rate of learning or the rate of investment needed to learn." 00:33:30 ... 00:33:43 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-187-178.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [" MS forgot to close port 80  People can fuck off "] 00:34:13 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:34:24 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:34:37 p_l: it surely must bend space-time. 00:35:18 How much do I suck if I just punt and use a table to get a three-column layout in my HTML? 00:35:33 not at all. 00:36:12 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:37:23 I am full of hatred of HTML at the moment. 00:37:26 gigamonkey: go for it. 00:38:08 but.... but..... seperating content and layout.... its.... its important... essential... everything! 00:38:13 http://matthewjamestaylor.com/blog/perfect-3-column.htm 00:39:28 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:39:39 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:40:03 luis: I was just looking at that. But figuring out how to resize the columns seemed to require higher math. (Or at least arithmetic I didn't feel like doing.) 00:40:12 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:25 gigamonkey: get oocss, it does multicolumn layout nicely without tables 00:40:59 you just use classes like "size1of5" "size2of5" etc. 00:41:01 heyall.. what's the quickest way to replace instances of a substring with another string? Or alternatively, what's the best way to escape a character (e.g. ' -> '' ) 00:41:47 i'd use cl-ppcre 00:42:10 anyone knows of a lisp MVC framework that can be used with anything (IRC, HTML, XMLRPC, GUI etc.) and still be useful? 00:42:31 hello worlds !! i'm trying weblocks and ge this error, where can i locate this library component :TRIVIAL-TIMEOUT not found, required by 00:42:31 # 00:42:33 Moe111: I'd write a loop using a string output stream (and possibly input stream) 00:43:11 hefner: I can dig that. However, are you sure this functionality has not already been done somewhere? 00:43:14 (require 'asdf-install) (asdf-install:install 'trivial-timeout) 00:43:25 salva. 00:43:58 weirdo: or just use clbuild 00:43:59 weirdo: i read it, thanks, i'm very beginner with lisp 00:44:09 minion: tell salva about clbuild 00:44:10 salva: direct your attention towards clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 00:44:13 but clbuild doesn't work from the repl :( 00:44:22 Moe111: it has been all over the place, many times, because it is trivial and can often be done in a few lines. if you know how to use an existing solution, I'd use it, otherwise it isn't hard to do yourself. 00:44:31 weirdo: small concession for having properly up-to-date packages 00:44:33 weirdo: you could invoke clbuild from the repl 00:44:36 salva, it's good that we have beginners, we'll die some day, you know 00:44:37 :) 00:44:41 hefner: or cl-ppcre ;) 00:44:44 weirdo: and yes, you can invoke it from repl :D 00:44:47 figure out what you're implementations equivalent of run-process is 00:45:04 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:45:10 heh, this remote swank thing worked out perfectly, well, kinda - took forever to get it working though 00:45:16 weirdo je je i'm beginner i lisp not in live 00:45:19 hefner: alright. thanks 00:45:21 cl-launch wasn't exactly something that wanted to work or sure. 00:45:22 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 00:45:29 pkhuong, yeah, stassats suggested that. 00:45:31 Okay, if anyone happens to be using a non-Firefox bromser, does this okay: http://www.codersatwork.com/ ? 00:45:54 gigamonkey: so... pink... 00:46:16 gigamonkey, works fine under elinks 00:46:23 gigamonkey: testing on conkeror... 00:46:24 gigamonkey: looks good in IE 5 :) 00:46:28 gigamonkey: I'm gonna hunt you down for tables :P 00:46:32 IE 5, no way. 00:46:34 tables are good 00:46:42 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Operation timed out] 00:46:47 sykopomp: that's purple, my friend. 00:46:48 gigamonkey: I don't notice any graphical errors in safari - although the constrast in colors - e.g. the menu and the font, is something you may want to address. 00:46:57 in my three days of lisp, i don't understand why isn't lisp the first languajes 00:46:59 Okay, so it's a bit pink. 00:47:01 gigamonkey: looks pink^Hpurple on Chrome 00:47:02 heh, "chief monkey" 00:47:10 luis, srsly. unpatched win2k forever. 00:47:14 divs suck 00:47:17 they're hard to use 00:47:18 gigamonkey: ok, you win :( 00:47:19 gigamonkey: looks the same in safari 00:47:23 (I happened to have such a VM open already) 00:47:33 salva: it looks -different- from other languages! 00:47:33 gigamonkey: wait a while, I'll make a version without tables :D 00:47:51 Adlai: seems more powerfull 00:47:54 p_l: Cool. Lazyweb web development is for me! 00:48:10 gigamonkey: renders completely fine on my browser -- and yes, I'd call it pink. 00:48:18 Maybe not Hot Pink, but pink nonetheless. 00:48:48 Yeah. I was trying for tints derived from the purple on the cover. 00:48:49 what are you, women? i mean, men shouldn't be able to distinguish slight color variations 00:48:50 :) 00:49:08 gigamonkey: font on 1st column and author is too small here (osx 10.5 firefox/safari) 00:49:17 gigamonkey: please, oh please, oh please talk to your publisher about getting the kindle version available on the amazon store :( 00:49:41 TDT: I'm pretty sure it's going to be available on the Kindle. At least that's what they told me. 00:49:43 or maybe just get a normal mobi file, not Kindle one... 00:49:57 p_l: that's unlikely, I suspect. But not up to me. 00:50:05 weirdo: real men know their shades of pink! 00:50:07 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:50:09 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:12 *stassats* fetches closure 00:50:21 xristos: what's your screen resolution? It's meant to be a bit small. 00:50:24 gigamonkey: Sounds good, I'm really glad to hear that at least - I'm really trying to avoid buying any more paper books unless an absolute necessity. 00:50:30 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:50:38 1680x1050 00:50:58 gigamonkey: i second xristos comment about font size. 00:51:40 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-47-76.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:51:51 1680x1050 00:51:59 demmel, xristos: how's that look? (Bumped it up a bit.) 00:52:00 gigamonkey: 1440x900 osx as well 00:52:44 gigamonkey: i think its good now. 00:52:48 better but the contrast is an issue 00:52:59 more in safari, rendering is not the same it seems 00:53:40 xristos: you mean between the black text and the background? 00:53:42 also, the names after the quotes are not bold in safari 00:54:34 gigamonkey: yes, the glyphs kind of blend with the background and it takes effort to read 00:54:55 Heh. What's up with that lack of bold. (I actually have Safari here so I can play with it. Thanks for pointing it out.) 00:55:07 -!- masm [n=masm@bl10-209-43.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:55:35 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:55:50 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:56:30 oh well, closure isn't working at all 00:56:55 Hmmmm. xristos, that bold thing looks fixed for me in Safari. How about for you? 00:58:02 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:58:06 its fixed in 1st column but not in 2nd 01:00:23 developernotes [n=user@173-29-41-100.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:00:57 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-214-152.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:59 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:01:11 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 01:01:15 There we go. And now with slightly less pink. 01:02:39 ok, so I've got a hunchentoot instance that won't accept new connections, but I can get into it with slime... what's the best way to figure out how things got hosed? 01:03:06 hey this is getting ridiculous 01:03:13 why can't i bind STRING as a local function? 01:03:32 i only gave them names to add documentation to function objects 01:03:33 sheesh 01:04:12 slyrus_: won't accept as in connection denied or queued ? 01:04:36 xristos: the symptom from the remote browser is that it just times out 01:04:42 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has left #lisp 01:05:02 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-064-124.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 01:05:17 well old versions of hunchentoot used a very low backlog for listen() 01:05:28 don't know if that is still an issue 01:05:39 gigamonkey: that book looks really interesting! :) 01:06:19 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:06:20 sykopomp: Feel free to order now! 01:06:36 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 01:06:49 gigamonkey: I think I will, as soon as I have an income :) 01:07:12 http://stassats.dyndns.org/img/coders-at-closure.png 01:07:19 perhaps I will try to convince someone my birthday is next month? ;D 01:07:20 :( 01:07:30 stassats: :( 01:07:37 stassats: do you use closure as your main browser?? 01:07:49 no 01:07:51 i doubt it ;p 01:08:17 i had to hack it to open codersatwork 01:10:44 some comments in it are in german 01:11:38 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:12:12 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 01:12:20 gigamonkey: I hate to say that, but I'm starting to think you suck at HTML more than me. But that's good as long as you write good books :D 01:13:42 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:13:47 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:14:06 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:16:01 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 01:16:14 -!- developernotes [n=user@173-29-41-100.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:16:48 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 01:17:10 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:17:19 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@128.12.64.26] has quit [] 01:17:23 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 01:17:50 p_l: anything in particular? 01:19:45 Or, important, do you mean the way it looks or the under-the-covers stuff. 01:19:46 ? 01:20:04 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:20:19 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 01:20:50 gigamonkey: the code 01:21:10 at least due to tables :P 01:21:27 Okay. I can live with that. If you feel like sending me a critque, I'll read it. 01:23:07 gigamonkey: one thing - just try keeping the code indented - it greatly helps in case someone other has to delve into it :) 01:23:41 anyone have a pdf of a paper about the presentations in lisp machines ? 01:23:58 i got that recently somewhere (probably from joswig in reddit) but can't find it now 01:24:21 or maybe someone in here posted the link 01:24:23 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-118.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 01:25:11 p_l: It's generated code (from Lisp). It is mostly indented, isn't it. (There are places where things aren't because of the way they're generated.) 01:26:03 xristos: when it comes to generating HTML, I found HAML to be of great use. Sure, it doesn't use lisp syntax, but it was created with HTML in mind, not general programming 01:26:50 s/xristos/gigamonkey/ 01:28:50 p_l: I use FOO which was also created with HTML in mind. 01:29:28 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-118.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:29:42 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-118.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 01:33:40 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-214-152.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:48 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-118.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:35:07 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-118.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 01:35:39 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:38:02 p_l, use PPRINT when code isn't indented 01:38:16 oh, HTML :) 01:38:17 weirdo: he's talking about HTML code. 01:38:30 gigamonkey, using some preprocessor already? 01:38:45 i truly *hate* repeating the end-tag like 01:39:00 weirdo: FOO. As described in PCL. 01:39:10 (Though it's evolved some since then.) 01:40:08 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-118.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:40:22 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-118.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 01:42:33 gigamonkey: I made a table-less version, though it's not identical (as I said, I also suck at HTML. I just had to deal with multicolumn tableless layout lately xD) 01:43:05 and it definitely needs some more tweaks 01:44:45 gigamonkey: http://plasek.rootnode.net/codersatwork.tbz2 01:45:24 there's more CSS loaded than probably needed, but I played it safe 01:45:31 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-118.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:46:00 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-118.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 01:46:03 it's not identical, though 01:46:18 Okay. I'll take a look. Thanks. 01:48:39 gigamonkey: btw, is deprecated iirc :P 01:48:53 p_l: WTF! 01:49:22 the same goes for 01:49:31 tfu, not , 01:49:38 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:50:50 basically all tags that specify only visual presentation are kind-of deprecated 01:50:58 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-118.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:51:28 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD954FF2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:52:50 iirc, they're not *deprecated* in the sense of "don't use this because it's superseded", they're "don't use them if there's an alternative" 01:53:43 *p_l* wishes that they gave a shorter inline tag than :/ 01:54:55 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-199.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:56:20 gigamonkey: When you ran remote debugging through slime, if you ran C-c C-k, to load the entire file, did that ever work for you? Noticing for myself, that command doesn't work. 01:59:14 anyone knows how to have infix and a separate reader/compilation stage at the same time? 01:59:39 what would the read-time representation of infix be? 02:01:17 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-118.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 02:02:16 well, separating reading and compilation is still possible. but I assume you mean that e.g. precedence is lexically determined 02:02:40 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:45 In which case, the read-time representation of any parenless expression is a sequence of alternating expressions and operators. 02:02:59 (well, not strictly alternating if you have unary operators) 02:03:23 But if your precedence/associativity is known at read time, you don't need any special representation. 02:03:32 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:04:29 my reader is a tokenizer, really. in the best case it could group parentheses together 02:04:46 but what if i allow executing ASTs by the user? will it be a lisp then? 02:04:53 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:54 or will it just be a forth with a lisp? 02:05:45 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:47 TDT: I think it did. I had to hook up tramp and then the appropriate path translation foo in SLIME. 02:05:47 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:05:51 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 02:05:51 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-118.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:06:14 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-118.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 02:08:15 ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:53 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:09:04 gigamonkey: ah ok I'll have to look that up then, the path translation thing is what got me on this - but I found a decent workaround, at least for lisp development anyways. 02:11:24 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-118.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 02:11:47 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-118.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 02:15:14 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 02:16:46 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-118.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:18:06 crod [n=cmell@KD124213182069.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:18:36 i recompile sbcl for threading suport but now seems imcompativilities with previous installed libraries, how can i recompile all? 02:18:52 salva: delete files named '*.fasl' 02:19:20 Xach: thanks 02:22:56 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:24:08 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-118.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 02:28:15 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:50 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-118.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:29:29 what does ENSURE-CLASS do that #'(SETF FIND-CLASS) doesn't? 02:30:27 when i used (setf find-class), it didn't fully refresh and stuff didn't work 02:30:36 -!- Adlai is now known as Adlai-AWAY 02:30:45 i'd rather use the latter, since it doesn't require me to create a new class 02:31:52 reinitialize-instance? 02:33:16 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-26.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 02:37:56 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-214.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:56 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-20-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:37:59 some help with this? SB-INT:EXTENSION-FAILURE in thread #: Don't know how to REQUIRE ASDF 02:38:07 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-26.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 02:38:22 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-26.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 02:38:28 you didn't build the asdf contrib 02:38:30 after a recompilation 02:39:02 ok, thanks 02:43:30 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:43:44 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-26.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 02:46:32 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:48:58 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:49:05 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-26.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 02:50:18 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@78.113.15.249] has quit [No route to host] 02:52:20 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.116.103] has joined #lisp 02:54:09 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:54:20 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-26.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 02:54:42 jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 02:58:35 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:59:25 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Success] 03:01:00 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-26.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 03:02:19 how i build asdf contrib? 03:02:51 don't is included with sbcl? 03:06:06 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-26.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:06:17 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-26.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 03:09:34 anyone got the url of the naggum post discussing how a parser for string format should look like? 03:09:54 it was something like, it should have keyword params denoting the " character and the escape (\) 03:09:58 but there was more 03:10:14 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:52 hrk [n=hrk@acurwa002143.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:17:43 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:18:30 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-26.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 03:20:01 -!- hrk [n=hrk@acurwa002143.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Riece/5.0.0 Emacs/22.3 (darwin)"] 03:20:15 hrk [n=hrk@acurwa002143.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:22:26 -!- knob [n=anon@65-23-218-38.prtc.net] has quit [] 03:22:39 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 03:23:37 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-26.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:23:48 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-26.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 03:23:48 What is the proper way to read a utf-8 encoded text file into a string? 03:24:13 -!- vsync [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:24:28 I was using file-length to get the size of the string, but just realized that it seems to be counting bytes. 03:24:33 set your locale correctly 03:25:14 FILE-LENGTH must count bytes, it would be grossly inefficient otherwise 03:25:14 -!- Adlai-AWAY is now known as Adlai 03:25:54 sb-impl::*default-external-format* 03:26:00 setq it to :utf-8 03:28:51 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:29:02 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-26.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 03:29:03 -!- hrk [n=hrk@acurwa002143.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Riece/5.0.0 Emacs/22.3 (darwin)"] 03:29:51 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 03:31:03 anyone know how to get the PID of an SBCL process from lisp? 03:31:16 hrk [n=hrk@acurwa002143.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:31:22 (sb-posix:getpid) 03:32:08 -!- hrk [n=hrk@acurwa002143.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 03:32:20 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:32:35 hrk [n=hrk@acurwa002143.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:32:35 weirdo: thanks 03:32:40 np 03:34:10 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:34:35 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-26.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 03:37:00 I seem to have a ton of open sockets opened from my lisp instance (enough so that I get errors when I try to open a new socket or file). Any idea how to clean these up from within lisp? As far as I can tell the sockets should have been garbage collected. 03:37:36 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-6b43a52ad8fda03c] has joined #lisp 03:39:27 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:39:51 vsync [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 03:40:12 FWIW, I ended up reading the file into an array and converted it to a string with flexi-streams:octet-to-string. 03:44:07 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:44:46 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-26.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 03:46:18 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:46:42 p_l: that's quite a twisty little maze of .css files. 03:48:55 gonzojive: it's generally a bad idea to count on GC to clean up non-memory resources like sockets. 03:49:18 Usually you can use UNWIND-PROTECT (or things built on top of it) to make sure things get closed up in a timely way. 03:49:47 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-26.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Success] 03:49:56 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 03:51:22 gigamonk`: well, I am using cl-twitter, which is using drakma. cl-twitter counts on drakma closing the streams, but I think something is going wrong occasionally and the socket does not end up closed. to the point: has anyone else had issues with drakma or other http clients not closing sockets? 03:52:05 gonzojive: ah, that I don't know about. 03:52:15 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.116.103] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:52:40 Though I suppose I might find out soon if it's a general problem since I'm running a long-lived Lisp loop scraping Amazon with drakma. 04:01:58 gonzojive: depending on your willingness to go implementation specific, your lisp may provide a way to attach a finalizer function to your socket, so the function can close it on gc. 04:02:27 I suspect drakma is well-behaved since the unwind-protect around the socket opening closes the socket. But, all the threads that opened these connections have died off, so the unwind-protect form should have run. I wonder what's causing this freakshow 04:03:08 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:04:12 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B5C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:04:22 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483B5C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:07 gigamonkey: but they do their job :-) 04:06:20 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:06:35 probably the only ones you need are two of them plus index.css, but I was playing safe 04:07:04 p_l: well, if it's doing the job that we care about, so does my ;-) 04:07:52 Someday I'm going to write some Lisp code to parse CSS files and HTML files and find dead CSS. 04:07:56 gigamonkey: unless you define the job as "do it without tables" :D 04:08:56 *p_l* likes working with Haml and Sass, because they are made specially to help writing code that relies on CSS for styling 04:10:35 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:46 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-48.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 04:10:59 Alright everybody. I'm using Aquamacs on OSX and this is the second time this has happened to me and so here I am instead of taking a shotgun to my head: 04:11:18 my remote host somehow died. (swank/lisp process went defunkt) 04:11:36 and my aquamacs has a file open (unsaved) and is fully frozen 04:11:40 Moe111: using unicode output? 04:11:48 cat file.lisp on the remote machine after reboot gives a big ol' empty file 04:11:54 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-219-223.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:11 what do I do? 04:12:35 I can see the part of the text in the Aquamacs window (which I've screen captured) but there's precious loot just above the page break 04:12:46 is there an autosave of either tramp or aquamacs? 04:13:24 drewc: not that I know 04:15:03 -!- vsync [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:15:26 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-48.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:15:50 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-48.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 04:20:57 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:21:11 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-48.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 04:21:44 Moe111: I suspect the stunning silence that has greeted your query is due to us all mourning the loss of your data. Sorry. 04:21:59 gigamonkey: I know =) 04:22:07 I have pulled out the cannons. 04:22:08 gdb 04:22:17 <_3b> tried hitting C-g a bunch of times? 04:22:18 Unless you happen to be lucky enough to have done a server-start or whatever it is to start a server inside emacs. 04:22:19 and I'm looking at obtaining a memory dump 04:22:36 In which case you might still be able to connect. 04:22:38 the memory must be still there. in some sort of heap trash 04:22:56 nah. the aquamacs is dead alright. 3 threads. all waiting on something 04:23:06 something being "select" (sockets layer) 04:23:08 stuck 04:24:06 alright. does anyone know how to access the vm space of an executable in OSX? 04:25:45 **tumble weed rolls by** 04:26:15 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Success] 04:26:45 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:27:30 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-48.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 04:27:39 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 04:27:57 Moe111: try pulling out your ethernet cable. 04:28:05 (Or turning off your wifi.) 04:28:17 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:20 gigamonkey: oh, the remote machine is a VM app. it's long gone. 04:28:23 Maybe that'll bump your TCP stack into doing something that will allow those threads to return. 04:28:35 ah. I see what you're saying though 04:28:38 Moe111: yeah, but your local machine is still waiting ... 04:28:59 ah, it was a bug in cl-twitter. 04:29:02 oh the JOKE. 04:29:07 aqua just vanished 04:29:12 no use in memdumping now =) 04:29:38 Sorry for your loss. 04:29:56 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:03 girzel [n=user@61.51.239.176] has joined #lisp 04:30:08 I must now rewrite a monster macro 04:30:09 vsync [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 04:30:10 sigh 04:30:53 oh man. it did everything. It even made me coffee in the mornings 04:31:28 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:31:54 gigamonkey: hey. btw. Are you the same gigamonkey from practical common lisp? 04:32:09 JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:10 gigamonkey: cause if so, your book stays open on my desk most of the time 04:32:15 gigamonkey: thanks for it. 04:32:31 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-48.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:32:37 Moe111: I am that gigamonkey. 04:32:42 Glad you like it. 04:32:56 thanks for your help gigamonkey, caoliver for the help 04:35:48 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-6b43a52ad8fda03c] has left #lisp 04:37:20 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:37:40 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:53 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:39:04 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:43:24 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:44:56 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 04:47:25 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:59 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 04:48:59 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:49:03 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-38-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 04:49:03 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-38-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:49:22 btw, does anyone know if swank just so happens to have some form of backup/recovery? 04:49:37 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:43 Moe111: look for autosave data, like #filename# 04:50:21 that would be on local or remote machine? 04:50:33 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:50:33 Moe111: remote, I think 04:50:54 in the same directory where the file you were editing was 04:51:07 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E4714A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:17 Isn't the ## generated by the emacs running the slime end? 04:51:59 Good morning. 04:52:53 `(good ,(decode-universal-time (get-universal-time))) 04:53:21 Or something like that. 04:53:33 p_l: no dice. thanks for trying thoguh 04:54:34 ^authent1c [n=authenti@85-127-38-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 04:56:44 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.176.112] has joined #lisp 04:57:19 -!- _stern_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E473CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:58:56 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-3263b8bf5a8a29cd] has joined #lisp 04:59:31 -!- ^authent1c [n=authenti@85-127-38-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:02:04 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-38-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 05:02:26 Morning, beach. 05:05:58 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.176.112] has quit ["Leaving! http://kmels.net"] 05:06:14 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.176.112] has joined #lisp 05:07:11 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-38-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 05:11:40 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.176.112] has quit [] 05:13:38 Alright. at the risk of sounding clingy to my lost data: does anyone know what the slime command history file is? 05:16:30 Ah well. Life. 05:16:35 wasabi_____ [n=wasabi@nttkyo969170.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:16:40 Thanks everyone. time for some shut-eye 05:16:42 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 05:16:54 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-3263b8bf5a8a29cd] has left #lisp 05:17:32 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-26.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 05:22:04 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-16-10.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:22:29 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:22:33 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:23:03 vsync_ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 05:23:13 grouzen [n=grouzen@212.110.129.238] has joined #lisp 05:23:14 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:15 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit 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#lisp 06:13:32 -!- wbraun [n=chatzill@p5B2042B7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 06:14:56 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 06:15:10 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-134.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:19:23 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 06:19:50 Hello 06:19:54 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:20:15 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:20:26 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-134.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:20:55 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:21:17 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 06:21:36 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 06:21:41 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 06:22:42 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 06:24:02 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:24:46 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 06:25:29 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-134.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Success] 06:25:45 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-134.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:28:05 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@76.122.37.30] has quit ["I'm off!"] 06:30:49 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:32:24 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-134.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:34:27 caoliver: yes, but Slime uses Emacs for managing files 06:35:12 and morning folks :) 06:35:28 you say it like emacs is a part of slime 06:35:28 hello p_l 06:35:37 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:35:50 pizdets [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:35:54 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:36:20 -!- pizdets is now known as pizzledizzle 06:36:36 stassats: Emacs is Slime's runtime environment 06:37:06 and linux is a driver for emacs, right 06:37:30 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-134.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:38:00 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-134.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:39:40 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D796.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:06 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:40:58 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.238] has joined #lisp 06:43:01 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-134.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:43:18 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-134.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:43:35 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:40 stassats, yes 06:44:07 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.238] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:44:18 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.238] has joined #lisp 06:45:23 daniel___ [n=daniel@p5082D32E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:38 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@212.110.129.238] has quit ["leaving"] 06:48:20 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Success] 06:48:33 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-134.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:49:40 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A06C0.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:50:33 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:53:56 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:54:26 any ideas on how to find out which asdf system does a package belong to? 06:54:36 hmm. i better find out basing on a file 06:54:57 <_3b> M-. ? 06:55:19 i mean, automatically 06:59:00 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 06:59:32 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:59:57 *_3b* suspects you could do something with list-all-packages, set-difference, and an around method on some asdf method, if you don't mind reloading everything 07:01:01 -!- Samy is now known as sbahra 07:01:29 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:04:33 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:04:48 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 07:05:32 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:06:00 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest2639 07:06:10 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:09:52 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:10:10 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 07:11:45 -!- dan____ [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:12:42 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-134.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:15:15 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:15:26 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 07:16:30 stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:42 cosmmar [n=baltic@unaffiliated/dconway] has joined #lisp 07:18:39 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:20:33 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:21:07 weirdo: You realize of course that a package can be used in several systems. 07:21:17 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 07:21:26 weirdo: the problem is that packages don't belong to an asdf system, and you could add to any package from any system except for ones locked by your implementation. 07:22:16 ASDF is about managing file dependencies, and thus is actually quite ignorant of packages. 07:22:32 here's a solution though: 07:22:52 (not a very tidy one, but it'll work) 07:23:24 -!- Guest2639 is now known as lexa_ 07:23:35 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 07:24:37 for each system definition, you check each file within that system for the defpackage form. 07:25:37 you mean, READ a file? 07:25:52 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Success] 07:26:03 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 07:27:17 the problem is, there are too many systems. searching only the loaded one would be good, if i find a way to see which ones are loaded 07:27:39 if you use #'read, you take the risk that read-time forms will be re-evaluated 07:29:19 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:30:15 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:31:08 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:31:38 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 07:31:53 (sb-introspect:definition-source-pathname (car (sb-introspect:find-definition-sources-by-name 'cl-ppcre :package))) => #P"/home/stas/lisp/site/cl-ppcre/packages.lisp" 07:32:09 weirdo: looks like you'll need to (defmethod 'asdf:operate :after ...) 07:32:11 prg [n=prg@91.214.124.1] has joined #lisp 07:32:53 stassats, thank you 07:33:31 or (cadadr (swank-backend:find-source-location (find-package 'cl-ppcre))) => "/home/stas/lisp/site/cl-ppcre/packages.lisp" 07:33:57 stassats: would there be any way to get the asdf system that includes that file? 07:36:31 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:36:45 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 07:40:33 danlei [n=user@pD954FF2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:33 acs 07:40:43 oops 07:41:50 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:42:06 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 07:44:29 stassats pasted "find-asdf-module" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85113 07:44:36 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483B5C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:44:45 brought you by fuzzy completion 07:47:08 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Success] 07:47:19 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 07:49:27 thanks Stas, you're a real lifesaver 07:50:03 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-126-175.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 07:52:23 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:53:04 fuzzy completion is really good for such sort of things, when you don't know how exactly functions should be named 07:53:06 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:53:10 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 07:54:16 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 07:55:25 -!- dwave is now known as asksol 07:56:07 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-209-167.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 07:56:46 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-229.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:58:04 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 07:58:56 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:59:09 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Operation timed out] 08:00:27 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 08:00:36 frodef [n=ffj@226.80-202-87.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:02:28 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:03:09 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:03:20 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:04:33 -!- stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:04:44 weirdo annotated #85113 "thank you, Stas!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85113#1 08:05:41 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:08:29 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:09:47 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:10:00 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:11:57 Guest59650 [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 08:15:06 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:15:20 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:15:22 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D796.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 08:15:40 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.238] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:16:18 -!- jao [n=jao@127.Red-213-98-196.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:20:26 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:20:49 matley [n=matley@91.80.233.122] has joined #lisp 08:22:51 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:23:31 http://foobiebletch.wordpress.com/ 08:24:32 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.21.25] has joined #lisp 08:25:14 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:25:54 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:26:05 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has 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has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:41:46 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:42:00 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:47:08 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:47:18 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:47:55 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 08:48:16 -!- asksol [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:49:40 -!- matley [n=matley@91.80.233.122] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:52:24 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:52:29 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:52:51 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:55:07 Is it just me, or is SLIME indentation blind to macrolets? 08:55:08 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ba070ed7b153e9fe] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:55:28 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:56:35 Yes it is 08:56:47 There's a contrib for that but it's not fully functional 08:57:20 yeah, it doesn't complete LABELS in their own bodies 08:57:24 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 08:57:34 -!- hrk [n=hrk@acurwa002143.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:57:43 tcr, can you look at this again? "/dev/ura" adds a new quotation mark 08:57:53 emacs people said it's slime, not emacs bug 08:57:58 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-3211b765e547f827] has joined #lisp 08:58:28 I think that's by intention 08:58:29 hm, I guess I don't really need it though. Just noticed it in a unit test that uses macrolet. 08:59:12 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:59:38 Adlai: Emacs indentation, like fontification, does not really know about the source code. It's all kludges and duct tape evolutionarily hacked to work in many cases 09:00:14 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:00:49 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-3211b765e547f827] has quit [Client Quit] 09:01:01 Pepe___ [n=ppjet@78.113.15.249] has joined #lisp 09:01:37 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 09:03:31 -!- Pepe___ is now known as Pepe__ 09:03:57 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-9ea42337afcf5a76] has joined #lisp 09:04:02 heh, sounds like most Emacs stuf... 09:04:41 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:04:44 I guess it's a testament to the power of Lisp that even a really crappy lisp program performs that well. 09:05:18 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:05:40 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:05:47 stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:22 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-9ea42337afcf5a76] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:10:31 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-62c3aa4385b05fa4] has joined #lisp 09:11:01 Adlai: For a better Lisp parser, see what we did for Climacs Lisp syntax. It uses an incremental LR(0) parser, so it has a much better idea of the contents of the buffer than Emacs does. 09:11:21 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:12:08 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:12:36 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:54 Adlai: A cute experment is to type (let ((progn and see how Emacs fails to indent this properly, whereas Climacs has no problem. 09:14:46 works for me 09:14:56 really? 09:15:41 my cursor ends up under the r of progn. 09:15:45 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:15:54 weirdo pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85115 09:16:22 i mean, i didn't have to reindent manually 09:16:27 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Success] 09:16:31 i did it to see if it was broken in some way 09:16:41 weirdo: well, that's wrong, because if you replace progn by some symbol of yours, it indents it properly. 09:17:03 one space less? 09:17:25 it would be good if climacs was production-ready 09:17:33 weirdo: Emacs fails to see that progn is a local variable, and thinks it is a progn form. The correct indentation is to align the value under the variable. 09:18:12 if climacs was ready, it would bring about new lisp gui apps 09:18:23 mcclim or otherwise 09:18:41 What is lacking in Climacs? 09:18:44 weirdo: I agree that it would be good if it were production ready, but that won't happen unless someone works a bit on it. 09:18:58 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:18:59 Adlai: Not much. It has a few annoying bugs, but that's pretty much it. 09:19:15 Adlai: It probably also need more SLIME-like features, though it already has quite a few. 09:19:17 hm, actually, I think I can answer my own question: 09:19:40 weirdo: Why do you think having Climacs ready would bring about new GUI applications? 09:19:41 the wide range of crap you can add on that you have with Emacs. 09:20:08 beach, we need lisp apps running in the same image. but first we need an editor and a repl in it 09:20:11 beach: Does the parser macroexpand in the background? 09:20:28 weirdo: Right. 09:20:32 without an editor, it's kind of pointless writing mail clients and somesuch 09:20:39 tcr: no 09:21:06 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:21:19 weirdo: For that purpose, you can consider Climacs as "ready". 09:21:20 Can you get a SLIME-like REPL in Climacs connected to it's own image? 09:21:37 Adlai: You wouldn't want to. We have the CLIM listener for that. 09:21:38 yes 09:21:49 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:21:50 Adlai: McClim comes with a real listener that is much more advanced than the Repl in Slime 09:21:51 What's the CLIM listener? 09:21:57 minion, thwap for Adlai 09:21:57 Adlai: please look at thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 09:22:06 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:22:20 oh, I misspoke, I don't mean a REPL, I mean a full SLIME. 09:22:43 ie, that you could compile files, M-., etc, with the image that CLIM is running on. 09:22:52 push learn-clim *todo* 09:23:02 Adlai: The only way you can have a full slime is using SLIME, just like the only way you can have full Java functionality when you program in Lisp is to use Java instead. 09:23:48 Adlai: Those are minor things that can easily be added, should they not exist already (many of them do exist). 09:23:51 Adlai: Slime is better because many people have worked on in the last decade, even though it's technically inferior 09:23:53 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-186.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:23:54 weirdo: thwap yourself -- "What is the CLIM listener" 09:24:37 Adlai: weirdo was referring to "it's own image". 09:24:42 I assume Climacs has a clone of SLIME though, right? 09:24:44 wait, what? clim listener better than the venerated slime repl? 09:24:55 oh, true, hehe... I did mess that up. 09:25:27 weirdo: the -REPL- in SLIME isn't that great. 09:25:40 weirdo: I think so, because it is a CLIM program, with command loop and everything, so you can draw things directly in a CLIM stream pane, etc. 09:25:58 arguably, "advanced" != "better" here 09:26:10 for example, you can't evaluate forms while you're at a debug level -- you're restricted to the things that SLIME offers 09:26:28 lichtblau: Right, the SLIME REPL is "better" in that it is less buggy, probably. 09:26:30 oh yeah, like lispm 09:26:32 logBot0952 [n=logBot@59.92.132.172] has joined #lisp 09:26:34 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:26:35 but slime has images too 09:26:53 not to knock the SLIME Inspector, or stack frames, but there's a certain something about being able to evaluate any form. 09:27:01 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [] 09:27:06 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:27:18 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-105.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:27:19 Adlai: The CLIM listener is a CLIM REPL application which lets you type in Lisp forms and other interesting commands and display the results of those interactions. 09:27:33 Adlai: But you would have to try it in order for it to make more sense. 09:27:57 weirdo: Adlai used 's correctly, don't thwap him :P 09:28:24 p_l: no, I said "... it's own image", which is wrong. 09:29:03 Adlai: ah, context. I have seen "What's" and applied it to that 09:29:08 *p_l* should sleep more 09:29:19 minion: chant 09:29:19 MORE SENSE 09:29:35 *Adlai* was hoping for "MORE SLEEP"... 09:29:46 Adlai: unfortunately, life doesn't make sense 09:29:47 sleep? tell me more... 09:29:56 i was writing a tokenizer, but got... sidetracked 09:29:59 stupid internets. 09:30:09 geltoob [n=JLP@71.92.98.86] has joined #lisp 09:30:22 weirdo: I'm writing a website, but I'm constantly sidetracked by fanfiction.net xD 09:30:42 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954FF2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:30:52 danlei [n=user@pD954FF2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:29 the proper term I guess is "I'm trying to write a website" 09:31:55 *fusss* currently enjoying Redis 09:32:02 nice little fast db 09:32:15 hmm i looked at some python code 09:32:27 and i didn't understand it because it didn't have comments 09:32:48 all this because of lack of hyphens in symbols 09:32:56 weirdo: i never wrote a line of Lua in my life and i am appropriating lua bindings for redis with no problem :-) 09:33:08 lua looks fun 09:33:27 frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@blm93-2-82-229-63-104.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:29 it's pretty minimalistic 09:33:34 but meta-lua should be a core project 09:33:50 weirdo: you don't like CamelCase and words_separated_by_underscores and __magic_methods? 09:33:56 i am not a big fan of toy programming languages 09:34:52 btw, I am knee deep in bad ideas trying to implement a plugin architecture for a web app 09:35:20 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954FF2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:35:37 the best I could come up was copy Emacs and read up on Joomla and Drupal's architecture somehow home they all fuse into some kind of a nice thing. 09:36:17 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 09:36:32 HG` [n=wells@xdslfn155.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:36:49 we have a menubar on top of the screen, much like the Facebook launcher, and I want to be able to take 3rd party modules (or our own) and somehow be able to drop them into a directory on a server and see their sub-menu entry added to the toolbar 09:37:37 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-38-170.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:37:46 fusss: CL? 09:37:56 too much stuff to be done; i really wish more Lispers doing web apps would come out of the wood works and let us talk 09:37:58 p_l: yeah man 09:38:23 i ran clim listener, typed "42", pressed #\Newline and it hanged 09:38:31 SUB-SUB-SERVE-EVENT 09:38:33 go figure 09:38:38 fusss: what about extending ASDF for that? 09:38:49 right now I have something chalked up, but it requires that I full audit the 3rd party code, which also has to be in CL because I don't have time to learn REST and Webservices and other stuff 09:39:18 extending ASDF to allow the installation of 3rd party website plugins without server restart? 09:39:37 hmmpf, I am gonna go out for a beer now 09:39:50 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.21.25] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.13/2009073022]"] 09:40:07 wow the listener is lots of fun 09:40:51 minion: memo for fuss: separate "manager/loader" thread, using whatever your OS has for file watches (inotify etc.), standardised naming of plugin directory structure, and CLOS+MOP for actual plumbing 09:40:51 Remembered. I'll tell fuss when he/she/it next speaks. 09:41:21 is serve-event broken or is it the listener? 09:42:13 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:42:41 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 09:42:59 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-38-170.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:43:33 weirdo: What makes you say that? 09:43:49 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:45:06 jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-41-208-216-208.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:45:50 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 09:48:20 ^authent1c [n=authenti@85.127.38.170] has joined #lisp 09:49:18 beach, it hangs after a while in SUB-SUB-SERVE-EVENT 09:49:56 I didn't even know there was such a thing as sub-sub-serve-event, and certainly not that we were using it in CLIM. 09:51:10 after restarting the image twice it doesn't hang anymore 09:51:26 rule-of-threes i guess 09:51:36 or maybe it should hang thrice? 09:52:05 wow this tab completion is so awesome! 09:52:17 but there's no debugger or inspector... 09:52:29 hmm tab completion has no keyboard support 09:52:32 still, it's great 09:52:32 weirdo: The inspector is called clouseau 09:52:59 weirdo: There is also a debugger pane with similar functionalities to those of SLIME. 09:53:44 now it hanged in WITHOUT-INTERRUPTS-BODY 09:53:51 when i pressed the close button 09:54:00 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:55:18 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:55 -!- logBot0952 [n=logBot@59.92.132.172] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:57:02 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 09:57:22 Embryonic document-revoery application: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/document-recovery.png 09:57:29 *recovery 09:58:02 is there a way to make mcclim look like gtk? 09:58:07 it looks like crap 09:58:13 not much better than genera 09:58:36 weirdo: You can make it look like whatever you want. It is just that nobody has bothered yet. 09:59:11 hmm this mcclim stuff is some "forgotten ancient technology" from a fantasy novel 09:59:31 fiveop [n=fiveop@e179119181.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:59:35 it does wonders and people are doomed to reinvent it, poorly 09:59:48 I fully agree. 10:00:24 -!- girzel [n=user@61.51.239.176] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:01:05 beach: btw, beach, which backend is most stable in case of McCLIM? 10:01:06 weirdo: see http://mcclim.cliki.net/theming (and in particular the pixie look) 10:01:08 masm [n=masm@bl7-205-43.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 10:01:23 I'm having trouble getting asdf to work with clisp (OS X 10.5.6)... somehow gzip isn't getting the right input so packages don't get extracted... Has anyone here had the same experience? 10:01:31 p_l: I would assume CLX. 10:02:27 http://mcclim.cliki.net/Screenshot <-- not all of these look like crap, but the guy doing the screenshotting did heavy customization as explained on the theming page 10:04:20 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 10:05:01 hmm there was some library for emacs-style keybindings inside non-emacs apps in CL 10:05:05 s/emacs/climacs/g 10:05:31 minion: please tell weirdo about ESA! 10:05:32 weirdo: please see ESA: ESA is a layer atop CLIM functionality to provide an Emacs-Style Application framework. http://www.cliki.net/ESA 10:06:20 slightly ot: does anyone know of a font that would be a close match to Genera lispm font, available in TTF/OTF? 10:06:33 weirdo: I wrote it to factor out common functionality between Climacs and Gsharp. Since then, I have used it in many other applications. 10:06:47 beach, did you ever need cells? 10:07:16 If I did, I was unaware. 10:07:28 i see. so mcclim it is. 10:07:33 anyone has a genera around? 10:07:34 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:07:36 i wonder if my code works on it 10:07:54 Lunch! BBL. 10:08:30 weirdo: do you have amd64 and patience to get an old linux image for VM? 10:08:52 p_l, what do you need me to do exactly? yes, i has amd64 10:08:53 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-38-170.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Success] 10:09:56 weirdo: you can run OpenGenera 2.0 then, the "old linux image" refers to the fact that Save World crashes due to problems with recent X.Org 10:10:32 hmm i can run it as a separate x server 10:10:38 possibly without a window manager 10:10:54 is openegenera 2 the newest and best? 10:11:26 ok, it is 10:11:30 weirdo: OpenGenera 2.0 is the one you can get easiest :) 10:11:33 but i can only find a copy for alpha 10:11:47 weirdo: you need that iso, then you need snap4 10:12:00 http://collison.ie/blog/2008/04/lisp-machines this tutorial good? 10:12:04 weirdo: http://plasek.rootnode.net/genera/ 10:12:09 can you get me newest generae? 10:12:21 thank you 10:12:26 weirdo: the tutorial is fine 10:12:33 *p_l* is getting himself some XFree 3.2 10:16:57 wait, what? 3.2? 10:16:57 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 10:16:58 :< 10:17:10 i wonder if it has nv module 10:17:53 svens [n=svens@87.76.94.31] has joined #lisp 10:18:38 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-62c3aa4385b05fa4] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:18:59 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:20:17 weirdo: re keybindings. 10:20:20 What I'm doing in the Qt version of Hemlock is that there some "buffers" which don't store any text. If you switch to such a buffer, what you get displayed instead in some random Qt widget. But thanks to having an associated "buffer" instance, they can also have a mode, and keybindings for that mode. 10:21:11 So there's a browser mode, and e.g. keys for scrolling stuff are bound to commands that tell webkit to scroll. 10:22:25 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 10:22:55 weirdo: I'm planning on running an old Xserver inside Qemu 10:24:11 try virtualbox instead 10:24:32 qemu sucks 10:27:21 but I already started NetBSD install :D 10:27:35 look at this 10:27:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genera_(operating_system)#Limitations 10:27:50 our "advantages" are their "limitations"? 10:28:26 i'm going to act, as per WP:BOLD 10:28:44 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:29:42 only the 4th point I find as advantage 10:31:00 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:31:26 no protection is good too 10:31:34 weirdo: not necessarily 10:31:43 think about java that won't execute "bad" bytecode for arbitrary values of "bad" 10:32:32 a better situation would be COW semantics on code and data, IMHO, with security model (not Java security model, cause that is a completely different thing - I'm thinking about permission system) 10:38:10 -!- cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:38:33 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-208.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:38:37 is it acceptable for a lisp to macroexpand at readtime? 10:38:54 i really need to stretch the limits of lispiness to get my language accepted... 10:39:12 sz0 [i=5e36c52f@gateway/web/freenode/x-948ac4294451df87] has joined #lisp 10:41:59 kosh` [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:42:25 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:43:13 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:43:29 mrdodge [n=user@cm110.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 10:43:46 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:44:13 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:44:28 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 10:48:19 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-167.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 10:49:27 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:51:40 *Adlai* hated writing unit tests... until now that they're done and the value of TDD is revealed. 10:52:46 cracki [n=cracki@42-171.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:54:28 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-109-204.revip2.asianet.co.th] has left #lisp 10:56:37 -!- cracki [n=cracki@42-171.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Client Quit] 10:56:40 -!- svens [n=svens@87.76.94.31] has quit [Client Quit] 10:57:23 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-167.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 10:58:39 cracki [n=cracki@42-171.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:00:18 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 11:03:45 hi weirdo, your ideas intrigue me -- you do know about reader macros and #. syntax of course? 11:04:13 crod, i do 11:04:28 my language has such stages: 11:04:38 - tokenization, returns a flat list of parsed tokens 11:04:57 -!- stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:05:00 - parsing, changes this into a graph, expanding macros, changing infix stuff to parenthesized prefix, etc 11:05:09 argh infix 11:05:20 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:31 - compilation, spits out CL code 11:05:41 - evaluation, simply cl:compile the code 11:06:01 note that by now i have only written the tokenizer 11:06:07 because i get distracted by shiny objects 11:06:26 and infix is needed, as it's designed for a MOO (not a line of code written yet) 11:06:58 Geralt [n=Geralt@p54A2F123.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:00 and yes, i have actually finished several projects, i don't always get distracted... only... sometimes 11:09:17 evaluation is quite different from compilation 11:10:03 -!- frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@blm93-2-82-229-63-104.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:11:25 chris2 [n=chris@p5B169E6B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:12:54 weirdo: compiling the code will make it evaluate more quickly, but it won't evaluate anything that's not marked (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ...) 11:13:42 you probably want to either just call #'eval on each toplevel form, or call (eval (compile ...)) 11:13:48 pdo [n=user@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 11:14:28 keep in mind that the call to compile could take a long time. 11:15:47 -!- sz0 [i=5e36c52f@gateway/web/freenode/x-948ac4294451df87] has quit [] 11:17:33 Adlai, i know how compilation works, it was a "mind shortcut" 11:17:44 we have a nice way of saying it in polish, "skrót mylowy" 11:17:48 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:17:52 blandest` [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 11:17:55 p_l, do you know how to translate this phrase to english? 11:18:49 mental shortcut 11:19:17 thank you 11:20:16 gotta time compiling each toplevel expr separately vs compiling everything at one time 11:21:25 -!- kosh` [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:21:39 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 11:24:05 scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has joined #lisp 11:26:35 afk - shopping 11:26:47 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-93c067cff4188a31] has joined #lisp 11:26:50 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Client Quit] 11:28:52 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:30:52 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 11:33:20 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-93c067cff4188a31] has left #lisp 11:34:57 -!- blackwolf [n=blackwol@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:37:23 -!- geltoob [n=JLP@71.92.98.86] has left #lisp 11:42:18 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:42:50 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:43:44 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-208.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:45:48 -!- Commienazi is now known as Jobbesiktningen 11:46:49 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-167.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:50:27 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 11:55:58 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D796.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:41 -!- pdo [n=user@217.33.254.141] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:58:53 pdo [n=user@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 12:01:08 ukl [n=ukl@f053124055.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:01:30 -!- cosmmar [n=baltic@unaffiliated/dconway] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:01:49 frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@blm93-2-82-229-63-104.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:08 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 12:04:59 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-41-208-216-208.wbs.co.za] has quit ["leaving"] 12:05:25 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:05:30 emacs has a very clever way of implementing lexical variables 12:06:02 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:06:06 -!- Gertm [n=Gertm@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:06:07 -!- arbscht_ is now known as arbscht 12:08:56 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@98.235.105.148] has joined #lisp 12:09:51 -!- Headcrab [n=ThomasH@d142-179-29-162.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:10:41 logBot5278 [n=logBot@59.92.153.89] has joined #lisp 12:11:17 i have hundreds of conses. how do i map-allocated-objects to see who allocated them? 12:11:27 hundreds of megabytes of conses, that is 12:12:26 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:13:52 scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has joined #lisp 12:18:08 weirdo: that's very implementation-dependant... I imagine you'd have to hook into SBCL's allocation, and maintain a hashtable mapping cons -> allocator. 12:18:40 duh, of course it's impl-dependenyt 12:19:34 weirdo: i don't think that info is available via map-allocated-objects. 12:23:03 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-214.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:17 wiedo: you will find it ln Lisp In Small Peices. (oodly in the chapter I just read..) 12:23:30 Xach: How was the Gorrie gathering? 12:26:05 sellout: lots of fun 12:26:45 a coworker from about 10 years ago showed up, turns out he knows some of the same people due to ITA's extensive person-web in the neighborhood 12:26:47 Xach: Figured. Wish I had been in town. 12:26:59 Ah, cool. 12:27:57 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 12:28:51 was nice to see h4ns and nyef also 12:29:19 Morning, folks. 12:29:23 friday at CBC is a little loud and crowded 12:29:29 hello gigamonkey 12:29:37 Heh, yeah, I'm sure. 12:29:44 Probably hard to find a bar that's not. 12:30:07 Xach: gwking was there as well, no? 12:30:11 Gertm [n=Gertm@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 12:30:15 *gigamonkey* doesn't really understand bars that are too loud to talk but w/o dancing. 12:31:24 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:32:58 Geralt [n=Geralt@p54A2F123.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:56 Reav___ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 12:36:05 sellout: hmm, i saw "tim" and another guy, but i didn't know if the other guy was gwking 12:36:18 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:36:40 gigamonkey: you only have to move your mouth but don't really need to have conversations in those.. they're great! 12:37:00 Xach: Tim McNirney? Beard, wears a baseball cap? 12:37:03 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1DDD.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:37:12 sellout: aye. 12:37:29 sellout: he was at the end of the table with h4ns and other-guy, and they mostly talked about ITA 12:37:43 then tim and other-guy left, and it was a 5-nerd squaretable 12:38:26 hi, when i try load weblocks with (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'weblocks) i get this error" The function USOCKET:SOCKET-CONNECT is undefined. [Condition of type UNDEFINED-FUNCTION]" i'm using osx and sbcl, how can i solve this? thanks 12:39:08 Heh 12:40:10 http://tehran.lain.pl/stuff/genera.png 12:43:50 ukl_ [n=ukl@f053124074.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:45:40 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Success] 12:45:41 is working mutithreads on sbcl osx? 12:45:50 salva: I think so. 12:46:34 i get the error after recompile sbcl for multithread 12:46:51 salva: the error about usocket? it doesn't seem likely that it's related to threads. 12:47:13 salca: but ccl seems better on that platform 12:47:15 salva: it sounds like usocket has not loaded fully, or maybe it's an old version 12:47:16 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:47:37 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:48:01 -!- mrdodge [n=user@cm110.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:48:59 Xach: I seem to remember having to require usocket and than saving a new image. I don't think it is included when you build. 12:49:01 weirdo: I wonder if you'll manage to get Save World to work 12:49:20 not today, i have to sleep sometime 12:49:22 i using this osx for develop but the servers are linux, i like use sdcl for that 12:49:26 but i have a sense of achievement 12:49:34 but it broke my keyboard settings 12:49:38 and i had to setxkbmap 12:49:42 which is stupidly named 12:49:53 it should have been set-x11-keyboard-map 12:50:02 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6D160.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:11 weirdo: then it would have to be renamed when x12 comes out 12:50:14 From SLIME user manual: 2.5.3 12:50:30 weirdo: Hmm, I found nice pic from Sayori Neko Works in that dir =^_^= 12:50:39 salva: i have a mac laptop, but i did not use it for sbcl development too much. i would log into the linux server for it. 12:50:48 p_l, a drawing of kittehs? 12:50:57 -!- logBot5278 [n=logBot@59.92.153.89] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:51:07 it's sb-bsd-sockets.. 12:51:38 weirdo: a drawing of the drawing in question being drawn ;P 12:52:06 p_l, the one on the top of the index? 12:52:16 it loads slow like hell, it's 768kb/s 12:52:49 try hosting.k.pl:80 with Host: tehran.lain.pl :) 12:52:52 Argh. I wonder why people post lisp code to their blog, ask for feedback, and then 1) do not allow comments and 2) do not publish an email address. 12:52:58 Xach: yes i'll must do that , but i like get the server in local for work out inet, i'm thinking in put a gentoo in this macbook 12:53:19 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-47-35.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:53:34 Perhaps lisp attracts a certain class of stupid clever person? 12:54:01 weirdo: yeah, that one :-) I'll have to get more works of that artist 12:54:28 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 12:54:45 Zhivago: It's called ashbergers syndrome .. 12:54:52 Zhivago: maybe the detective work involved in finding out how to contact the author is a kind of worthiness filter 12:55:08 -!- ukl [n=ukl@f053124055.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:55:24 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:55:33 jthing: Asperger's? 12:55:34 jthing: I doubt that. 12:56:22 danlei [n=user@pD954FF2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:46 bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has joined #lisp 13:00:05 i want users to make my base classes their base classes, adding a list of subclasses to them 13:00:35 i mean, i have class like root-of-my-application and i want them to have an option to pass a list of subclasses 13:00:44 is there some idiom or should i go with ENSURE-CLASS? 13:00:59 i really need some sleep 13:01:17 do you mean a list of superclasses? 13:01:44 dlove: let's just say it's a class of people who are tecnically adept but socially inept. 13:04:06 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:04:29 scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has joined #lisp 13:05:37 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D796.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 13:06:55 kpreid, yes 13:07:28 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:08:01 personally I'd use the mop to generate a superclass using the list, then defclass my real class 13:08:01 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:08:33 -!- ukl_ [n=ukl@f053124074.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["..."] 13:09:00 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:09:16 oh my. i found my old code that serializes perl to sexps 13:09:33 or rather, a restricted subset of sexps, all done in a convoluted way 13:09:37 minion: tell weirdo about cl-ppcre 13:09:38 weirdo: direct your attention towards cl-ppcre: CL-PPCRE is a portable, Perl-compatible regular expression library by Edi Weitz. http://www.cliki.net/cl-ppcre 13:09:45 (: 13:09:52 wierdo: And I though pron was bad for you moral 13:09:55 Adlai, why so? 13:09:57 pron 13:10:23 weirdo: I'm making fun of perl ): 13:10:32 *:) 13:10:38 Higher Order Perl is actually a good book 13:10:43 *Adlai* is on a roll today with spelling & grammar 13:11:02 it nudged me toward Lisp, since the author (MJD) wrote he hates Lisp 13:11:08 haha 13:12:01 weirdo: He wrote that Lisp is a fine language with a horrible community 13:12:04 Welcome to that community! 13:13:11 well perl community is a bunch of jocks 13:13:34 you're ok, except for a few rude people 13:14:07 weirdo: am I OK too? 13:14:13 weirdo: we call them code cowboys. shoot from the hip and see if you hit. In lisp you aim first. (or rather plan) 13:14:51 luis, of course. 13:15:12 hey, i cowboy-code a lot 13:15:49 my actual implementation is writing from the bottom-up, making pauses to think about the design and then resuming coding 13:15:59 Coming from Perl that doesn't supprise me 13:16:03 weirdo: i don understand your problem about subclasing can you repeat please 13:16:06 ? 13:16:46 weirdo: possibly he was thinking of the c.l.l community 13:16:58 (it has a very high ratio of insane people, even by Usenet standards) 13:17:06 weirdo: spiral developemet is no cowboy coding. google agile programming 13:17:44 salva, i need to give the users the ability to redefine my classes, providing a list of superclasses. usually i do that by means of ENSURE-CLASS in a with-macro followed by an UNWIND-PROTECT 13:17:57 i wonder if there's a better (e.g. more threadsafe) way 13:18:49 and EXTENDS? 13:20:50 EXTENDS? 13:20:56 what's that symbol? never heard of it 13:20:57 public class B extends(A) 13:21:07 this is #lisp 13:21:18 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:21:30 is this subclassing notation? 13:21:50 in my example, class B is a root class and class A is superclass given by a user to me at runtime 13:22:44 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:14 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32D073.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:28 yes i know, i reading about subclasing lisp yesterday , i mistake the code 13:24:40 (defclass name (direct-superclass-name*)  13:24:40 (slot-specifier*))  13:25:05 stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:12 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-64-222-181-252.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:21 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-48-148.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:26:37 read AMOP 13:27:00 you don't know a codebase if you don't implement it... or read the thought-process driving writing it 13:27:00 :-) 13:27:02 excellent book 13:27:57 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has quit [] 13:28:25 thanks 13:29:52 *weirdo* thinks of a class browser a'la smalltalk for sandboxed language, with a remote repl, remote file storage and all 13:29:59 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 13:30:15 oh yeah, interpreters having separate state 13:30:22 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 13:30:24 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:02 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 13:32:56 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:33:30 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:34:13 Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 13:34:42 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:36:23 -!- arbscht_ is now known as arbscht 13:38:59 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9951z/ask_proggit_ideas_site/c0bvf0p 13:39:14 Because once you've posted your idea to some website you've really done all the hard work. 13:39:48 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 13:39:55 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:39:55 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 13:40:02 that's easy, just patent them 13:40:05 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:40:07 oops 13:40:15 is there asdf for genera? 13:40:37 I'm going to guess that you could be the first to port it :) 13:41:00 asdf is basically portable CL but it might make some assumptions about pathnames... 13:43:50 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:44:32 hmm, so people load systems manually? 13:44:38 i can live with that 13:45:14 defsystem? 13:45:31 mk- 13:49:42 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 13:51:52 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 13:52:45 stupid question: why do people use trees if hash tables exist? isn't O(k) better than O(log n)? 13:53:34 hash doesn't maintain order between elements? 13:53:34 trees maintain a sorted order on the keys 13:53:44 thank you 13:53:45 (log 42) => 3.7376697 13:53:57 Anyway, big-O notation describes the time proportions of an algorithm, not running time. 13:54:25 weirdo: under some circumstances having hash codes can be tricky 13:54:29 A really fast O(n^2) algorithm can beat a really slow O(1) for low n 13:54:37 big-o describes the number of "expensive operations" 13:54:53 also, (balanced) trees are deterministic in worst-case sense 13:55:08 and yeah, inserting a busy-loop doesn't change the algorithm's computational complexity 13:55:16 and hmm, rehashing could be expensive 13:59:04 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-21-229.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:59:22 -!- pdo [n=user@217.33.254.141] has left #lisp 13:59:48 hash tables are the workhorse because you *don't* need an ordering 14:02:48 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 14:02:51 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-1-50.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:03:01 hail 14:04:22 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:04:47 benny [n=benny@i577A1DDD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:06:49 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:08:02 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:09:05 hey 14:10:30 does anyone use XCVB lately? 14:10:46 I didn't know it was considered ready for use 14:12:28 levy: I've been adding it to recent code, but I haven't actually tried building with it yet. 14:12:38 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:13:23 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:13:40 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:14:55 maybe it's better to wait till the website doesn't contain this: "Not yet a complete solution to fully replace ASDF" 14:16:41 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:17:36 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32D073.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:45 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 14:21:11 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 14:21:47 dan__ [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:51 -!- Jobbesiktningen is now known as Idebesiktningen 14:22:56 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:24:07 illumina` [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:23 -!- stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:26:49 is there any public project using xcvb already? 14:27:50 I think fare was saying a couple of weeks ago that he's using it internally to build full systems. 14:27:54 -!- frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@blm93-2-82-229-63-104.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:28:09 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:28:58 yeah, I'm asking for a _public_ project not because I doubt xcvb, but because I'd like a simple way of trying it, so projects internal to ITA don't really help me. 14:29:37 It would be nice to have all of these in clbuild: 14:29:42 1. xcvb's dependencies 14:29:46 2. the ability to build the xcvb binary itself 14:29:51 3. a library that can be built using xcvb as an example 14:30:02 i agree 14:30:17 and 4. a fork of clbuild should be available which by defaults points to an SBCL repository where the cfasls patch is already included 14:30:57 it's in head 14:32:06 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:32:19 oh, even better! 14:32:29 :) 14:35:13 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:37:48 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.238] has quit ["Off!"] 14:39:46 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-205-43.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:40:00 jajcloz [n=jaj@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:01 sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:56 -!- cracki [n=cracki@42-171.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 14:41:26 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:02 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:42:11 jajcloz [n=jaj@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:30 -!- dwave is now known as asksol 14:42:48 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 14:44:59 -!- Idebesiktningen is now known as Jobbesiktningen 14:45:34 masm [n=masm@bl7-205-43.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:48:18 -!- prip [n=_prip@host185-132-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:48:55 prip [n=_prip@host157-124-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:49:11 ... relocation-branch isn't in head yet, is it? 14:49:27 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 14:50:07 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C84C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:54 robyonrails [n=roby@host180-177-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:51:06 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host180-177-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 14:51:41 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-16042.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 14:55:25 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-21-229.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:58:01 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:01:46 if that's my relocation branch you're referring to: no, it isn't. 15:02:30 My last round of refactoring went to far. Before committing anything, I should work to split up unrelated features that all ended up on the same branch. 15:05:27 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:05:42 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:05:45 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:05:52 wasabi______ [n=wasabi@nttkyo494028.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:06:28 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 15:06:38 *Adlai* curses the internet. 15:06:57 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:07:59 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-48-148.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:08:08 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:09:28 Mmm... I'm also not impressed with the use of sbrk() semantics, as that won't work on win32. 15:09:58 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-26-111.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:10:19 that's the "unrelated features" issue I meant. The branch currently has both relocation and incremental allocation. 15:10:53 booo [n=user@dsl-hkibrasgw3-ff2dc000-174.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:10:56 The sbrk thing is only for incremental allocation, which is #ifdef'ed. 15:11:16 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-208-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 15:11:29 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:11:34 It would be nicer if the #ifdef'd stuff was on a separate branch, so that relocation itself could committed on its own. 15:12:05 Umm... Yeah, I can see that, but... It would also be nice if incremental allocation could be used on win32 as well. 15:12:07 Would be great if you could test relocation on Windows though. It used to work and probably doesn't work at the moment, but only because I broke some detail. 15:12:30 wasabi_______ [n=wasabi@nttkyo969170.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:12:33 does this anything have to do with win32 dynamic address range/size? 15:12:45 -!- daniel___ is now known as daniel 15:12:47 there's a separate branch called incrementation-allocation-using-mmap which tried to get rid of the brk (because brk doesn't work on MacOS either, etc.) But it's unfinished. 15:14:27 weirdo: Yes. We're talking about the changes required to make win32 memory map semantics not kill sbcl. 15:15:17 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:42 One of the three major problems with SBCL/Win32, at that. 15:16:02 . 15:16:27 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-18.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:16:55 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-32-46.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:18:00 It's one of those things that's complicated, involved, requires a lot of thought, and has been about half-done for ages. 15:18:06 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-18.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 15:18:18 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-18.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:19:06 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has left #lisp 15:19:09 lacedaemon [i=lacedaem@151.82.1.206] has joined #lisp 15:19:33 Hi 15:19:36 One of the problems was that genesis was dumping untagged heap addresses into the cold-core, thus causing relocated cold cores to not work even though relocated warm cores worked fine. 15:21:14 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:21:37 hello, lacedaemon 15:21:46 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:22:02 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:22:33 -!- Jobbesiktningen is now known as Idebesiktningen 15:22:51 -!- wasabi_____ [n=wasabi@nttkyo969170.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:24:18 where are the logs for #lisp? 15:24:26 minion: logs 15:24:26 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 15:24:44 thanks 15:24:47 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 15:26:10 phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 15:27:43 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:27:47 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 15:27:55 -!- wasabi______ [n=wasabi@nttkyo494028.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:28:04 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:30:30 wasabi________ [n=wasabi@nttkyo859002.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:30:34 p0a [n=m@athedsl-390458.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:30:43 -!- p0a [n=m@athedsl-390458.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 15:31:59 p0a [n=m@athedsl-390458.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:32:07 Hello where can I read about #1= and #1#? 15:32:21 (I understand it starts from 0 -- I don't remember the name and google fails) 15:32:35 clhs #= 15:32:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dho.htm 15:32:48 p0a: the key is to recognize that dispatching macros (such as #) have a numeric argument and the naming parts are #= or ## 15:32:49 there was a while when I could not log in to freenode with my nick, it kept on booting me off, I'm trying to figure out why 15:32:55 then you can look up those in the clhs 15:33:25 kpreid: I see thanks 15:34:51 -!- phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:35:10 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:35:15 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 15:35:22 -!- blandest` [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:57 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:36:12 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:36:22 [1]Idebesiktning [i=HydraIRC@95.209.47.75.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 15:36:47 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:37:14 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:39:04 -!- xan_ is now known as xan 15:40:16 I don't like that discussions on the bug tracker go aside from the mailing list 15:40:23 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:36 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:41:48 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:44:52 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:45:09 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:46:09 -!- wasabi_______ [n=wasabi@nttkyo969170.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:46:50 wasabi_________ [n=wasabi@nttkyo946146.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:48:26 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:49:01 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:49:09 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 15:52:36 rolly1975 [n=rory@193.108.78.132] has joined #lisp 15:55:38 Boy, c.l.l is sad reading these days. 15:56:11 why read at all? 15:56:31 stassats: I guess I am still hoping for something interesting and/or relevant. 15:56:40 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:56:45 But the noise is drowning out any possible signal in there. 15:57:11 how about a mailing list? 15:57:56 I wouldn't want to be the one managing it. 15:58:50 I like the IRC method where anyone can join, but then they can be kicked and/or banned for being off topic or for behaving inappropriately. 15:59:34 mailing lists generally aren't moderated 15:59:42 but people can be ejected and banned from joining again 15:59:55 -!- wasabi________ [n=wasabi@nttkyo859002.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:00:16 -!- Idebesiktningen [i=HydraIRC@95.209.49.81.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:00:17 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-219-223.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:00:17 -!- [1]Idebesiktning is now known as Idebesiktningen 16:00:21 and get new e-mail? 16:00:37 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6D160.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 16:00:57 salva [n=salva@imaxeson.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:55 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:32 hmm 16:02:43 i could filter them based on some header in procmail plugged in to mailman 16:03:47 ...or extract their real ip address using a perl one-liner 16:04:13 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-186.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:04:13 -!- Pepe__ [n=ppjet@78.113.15.249] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:04:13 -!- xenosoz1 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:04:13 -!- ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:04:13 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.107] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:04:13 -!- cp2 [n=will@69.163.33.38] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:04:13 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:04:13 -!- qebab [i=finnrobi@caracal.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:04:13 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:04:13 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:04:13 -!- DrForr_ [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:04:18 you know, i've been administrating medium-sized email systems for years 16:04:21 though i forgot a lot 16:04:22 which contacts NSA? 16:04:29 NSA? 16:04:43 -!- p0a [n=m@athedsl-390458.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["leaving"] 16:04:44 national security agency 16:04:55 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:05:12 what about NSA? i don't understand 16:05:33 to extract real ip address 16:05:46 it's in the Received header 16:06:00 i once wrote a perl script that does it with regexes 16:06:04 sent from web-interface? 16:06:10 the perl script is crap, but the regexp can be salvaged 16:06:36 from free-mail service 16:06:47 there are many headers people don't know identify them 16:07:18 i once used a user-agent string and a CIDR range block 16:07:37 it was fun cancelling people on alt.* 16:07:57 my program was called Szeryf Usenetu, which means "Usenet's Sheriff" in Polish 16:08:08 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 16:08:23 DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:08 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 16:09:24 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.107] has joined #lisp 16:09:37 ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:43 Pepe__ [n=ppjet@78.113.15.249] has joined #lisp 16:09:43 xenosoz1 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has joined #lisp 16:09:45 qebab [i=finnrobi@caracal.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 16:11:26 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Killed by sagan.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 16:11:28 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-186.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] 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[n=tjasko@98.235.105.148] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:20:36 phromo [i=phromo@c-1ec2e455.015-359-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:23:54 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:26:03 -!- phromo [i=phromo@c-1ec2e455.015-359-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )"] 16:26:32 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:44 -!- Adlai is now known as Adlai-AWAY 16:26:45 demmel [n=demmel@c092.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 16:32:51 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:33:12 -!- salva [n=salva@imaxeson.net] has quit [] 16:33:17 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 16:35:48 -!- fe[nl]ix [i=lacedaem@151.82.1.206] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:38:05 -!- sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 16:38:41 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 16:43:16 hohum [n=dcorbe@206.71.169.115] has joined #lisp 16:43:21 w00t 16:43:31 just got my practical common lisp book from amazon 16:44:54 benny` [n=benny@i577A1DDD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:44:56 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:45:00 Congratulations! It's a nice book. 16:45:19 And the author comes in here regularly, too. :) 16:45:20 I'm still waiting on my intro to elisp book 16:45:28 as usual elisp is the fail in this model :( 16:45:38 does he? 16:45:46 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1DDD.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:47:56 hohum: Sure the book even got an IRC quote on its cover 16:48:08 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:48:18 Why buy a book on elisp? 16:48:27 so it does 16:48:33 Zhivago: to make my life easier 16:48:50 I prefer being taught to reading docs ;) 16:49:05 Ah, a developmental disorder. 16:49:14 yeah 16:49:16 something like that 16:49:22 more like a time disorder 16:49:47 once I have the fundamentals down I don't mind reading docs 16:50:12 Zhivago: also I know you from ##C 16:53:24 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-d9e981e7dca0b4ec] has joined #lisp 16:53:38 hohum: Though, as I recall, the book by Stallman et al on Elisp is pretty good, but perhaps that's the one you ordered? 16:54:09 the book by stallman is also freely available 16:54:13 I ordered a different one 16:54:19 a really expensive one (for some reason) 16:54:29 but it came highly recommended 16:55:37 hohum: Are you new here at #lisp? 16:55:56 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [] 16:56:27 hohum` [n=user@208.90.33.43] has joined #lisp 16:56:46 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:56:52 he is, he payed for stallman's plane tickets 16:56:54 and ramen 16:57:02 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:57:02 I am 16:57:06 hohum: What made you want to learn Lisp? 16:57:35 Is stallman allowed fly on planes? Does he have his own secret constellation of GPL GPS sats or something? 16:57:50 beach: emacs, mostly. but also because I might be able to find something practical to do with common lisp 16:58:13 rsynnott: What is that supposed to mean? 16:58:32 oh, joking :) 16:58:39 hohum: Pretty much anything you can do with any other language is practical to do with CL. 16:58:41 he tends to object to using closed source stuff 16:58:50 (which I assume GPS sat software is) 16:58:51 beach, he once caused a scene on a plane 16:58:56 theo the rat mentioned it once 16:59:00 beach: isn't that true for a lot of languages? 16:59:11 hohum`: indeed. 16:59:11 my comfort zone is C, Python and PERL 16:59:24 but I know plenty of other languages as well 16:59:26 hohum`: But people tend to think that Lisp can only be used for AI. 16:59:30 hohum`, lisp has macros, thus it can be extended for any applications 16:59:37 it can do text processing better than perl 16:59:51 it can do array manipulation better than apl 16:59:54 that's a bold statement 16:59:56 and numerics faster than C 17:00:15 I haven't seen anything better at handling large data sets than perl 17:00:24 -!- Reav___ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:00:32 I use python mostly for code prototyping 17:00:40 hohum`: I think you might learn a lot hanging out here then. 17:00:44 i use lisp for code proto^W 17:00:52 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:59 if I need to think about a problem that a design doc won't help me with I write it in python first 17:01:07 one tip 17:01:17 don't just sit and write code 17:01:23 think of a best way to encapsulate the problem set 17:01:31 like, make a macro that solves all the work for you 17:01:49 it's easier to do on some problems than others, though 17:01:54 but people have already done wonders 17:01:59 -!- benny` is now known as benny 17:02:06 you guys are friendlier than 90% of freenode 17:02:07 weirdo: do you mean s/and/but/ ? 17:02:32 don't just sit, but write code? 17:02:48 hohum`: There is a pretty creidble theory though that the language determines what design you are able to produce. If you don't know about Lisp macros, multiple dispatch, etc, then you will produce a design that might be artificially inferior due to such restrictions. 17:03:06 hehe, weird conversation 17:03:16 *nod* 17:03:27 just define a function called dwim and call it... it's going to do what you mean... i do mean, really... 17:03:45 If not, it' a bug, so you correct it ;-) 17:03:50 pjb, no. i mean "don't get angry and type code until it takes 1k lines" 17:03:58 beach: I just watched a video about that an hour ago: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=448441135356213813 17:04:10 talk by peter seibel 17:04:28 weirdo: oh, I see. 17:04:59 -!- Adlai-AWAY [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:05:07 video.google still exists? :) 17:05:07 demmel: Sorry Flash is borked on this machine. Which talk is that? I think I might have seen it. 17:05:12 Adlai-AWAY [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:05:14 for instance, you *could* write dozens of consp's and cadar's and eventually get it right 17:05:25 or you could pattern-match the input and get the same, if not better-performing code 17:05:39 beach: fortunately, video.google.com, being WEIRD, offers an mp4 download 17:05:55 gigamonkey: do you have a chart or something for amazon? 17:05:58 rsynnott: Excellent! 17:06:22 hohum`: Right, #lisp is a pretty friendly place. But people here tend to dislike arbitrary stupidity and incompentence. 17:07:09 well I'll try not to ask stupid questions :) 17:07:23 my roommate is somewhat of a language purist 17:07:26 he loves lisp 17:07:26 In my experience, people are esteemed more for the presence of accomplishment than the absence of stupid questions. 17:07:32 hohum: Oh, you will get plenty of warning before being kicked and/or banned. 17:07:49 Xach: well put. 17:08:03 *weirdo* takes note to port asdf to genera 17:08:08 beach: shamelessly stolen from bruce r. lewis, who said it to me a few years ago. 17:08:12 beach: he talked about design patterns and how the language you use might affect them. Examples were visitor pattern in java and lisp and then the condition system 17:08:18 beach: i found it excellent advice 17:08:44 hohum: I think that you will find people who hang out here to be very competent in many different languages, so that they know what they are talking about when they compare, as opposed to "purists" that just defend their turf. 17:08:59 demmel: I think I might have seen that one. 17:09:40 hehe 17:09:40 he's a smart guy too 17:09:40 he just uses the word "fail" a lot to describe things I talk about 17:09:40 :) 17:09:42 demmel: You should also talk to gigamonkey in person sometime. He is an interesting and nice person. 17:09:48 in inferior languages, you write patterns into your code 17:09:58 this is entirely anecdotal though 17:10:09 in lisp, you write macros or metaclasses expressing the patterns 17:10:31 hohum, is he a /b/tard? 17:10:47 they tend to use "fail" with such semantics 17:10:49 what's a /b/tard? 17:11:03 person who visits [NSFW] http://img.4chan.org/b/ 17:11:17 oh 17:11:19 yeah 17:11:29 it's like with lisp, except it's not simply "dying", there are "cancers" that are "killing /b/" 17:11:46 it's common to say that someone or some activity or some concept is "the cancer that is killing /b/" 17:11:56 beach: That would be great. He thaught me lisp (in a way). Maybe some lisp conference. Also I'm planning a year abroad to the US (nothing specific yet). I'm currently studying in Germany. 17:11:57 often shortened to "WTF CANCAR?!?!?!?!" 17:12:01 enough offtopic 17:12:09 indeed 17:12:11 *hohum* & 17:12:15 oh, and thanks guys 17:12:25 I'll be around 17:12:26 come again 17:12:35 rsynnott: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeAdryYZ7ak 17:12:36 demmel: gigamonkey has been known to show up at the ECLM. Perhaps you should sign up for Hamburg in September? 17:12:44 we're always looking for newbies. we're getting old and we need to keep the legacy going 17:12:52 10:10 -!- Irssi: Channel #lisp saved 17:12:55 weirdo: :) 17:13:02 fukken saved! 17:13:15 beach: He's not among the registrations so far 17:13:18 beach: unfortunatly I'm away during September. Otherwise I would have gone. 17:13:24 tcr: darn! 17:13:40 gigamonkey: Are you not coming to ECLM this time? 17:14:15 all these conferences and no video feeds 17:14:19 demmel: Where in Germany are you? 17:14:33 beach: TUM, Munich 17:14:34 i once took place in an internet video by typing messages into a chat window 17:15:01 that would be pretty cool 17:15:16 and if not, just see a recording of a conference 17:15:17 weirdo: I think we would have no problem recording ELS, but nobody seems to have the energy to figure out how to do it. 17:15:25 I think 'fail' has become rather mainstream these days 17:15:28 every day in #lisp is an advanced conference 17:15:31 you go to conferences all the time and i wonder what you talk about 17:15:38 (I've seen a broadsheet newspaper use it) 17:15:41 a lightning talk is scheduled in 45 minutes 17:16:00 cool, what is the subject? 17:16:32 beach: I'm the year below tcr. 17:16:46 tcr: hi :) 17:17:18 demmel: Interesting! I think they are partners with us in our application for an Erasmus Mundus program (which was rejected, but we now know what we need to improve). 17:17:53 paw` [n=paw`@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:17:54 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 17:18:11 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:18:21 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:38 beach: Where about are you? 17:18:46 demmel: Bordeaux 17:19:17 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:19:51 beach: Unfortunately I don't speak French. 17:20:09 it's never late to learn 17:20:17 demmel: Not a problem. I don't speak German (actually, I do a bit). 17:20:42 stassats: Right you are. I am learning Vietnamese! 17:20:46 anyone knows how to make SLIME indent after newline not at the first argument but at the &key/&rest argument? 17:20:57 like this: 17:21:10 slime indents the way it indents for your own good :) 17:21:21 rsynnott: Yeah, right! :) 17:21:26 17:21:27 (format nil "foo ~A bar ~A" (some-expr ...) 17:21:27 (expr2 ...)) 17:21:39 if it's a macro, then using &body instead of &rest should change behaviour a bit 17:21:40 same for MAKE-INSTANCE 17:22:12 weirdo: I don't think everyone has a fixed-width font irc (i dont) ;) 17:22:16 weirdo: for make-instance, I use (put 'make-instance 'lisp-indent-function 1) 17:22:30 thank you 17:23:39 oh, it doesn't do the right thing 17:23:50 Oh? 17:23:54 beach: Last time I thought about learning a language I was thinking Spanish (no offense), but your right, its never too late. 17:24:06 it indents at the first argument, at the class-designator 17:24:40 demmel: Why would learning Spanish be an offense. It's a fine language and I wish I knew more about it. 17:24:59 Anyway, dinner seems to be ready. I'll Be Back Later. 17:25:13 beach: I was only half serious :) 17:25:14 jajcloz [n=jaj@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:20 sure 17:25:21 beach: enjoy 17:25:23 spanish is one of the more practical languages to learn 17:26:08 hohum: I'm thinking South America. I'm thinking big mountains. 17:26:17 *nod* 17:26:21 argentina is <3 17:27:00 *rsynnott* really must relearn french 17:27:06 hmm i once thought chavez was "good" 17:27:18 (if nothing else, good backup incase economy continues imploding) 17:27:25 and wanted to learn spanish in some unspecified future to watch his tv programs 17:27:27 *shiver* 17:28:05 -!- rolly1975 [n=rory@193.108.78.132] has quit [Client Quit] 17:28:08 hugo chavez? He has TV programmes? 17:28:27 illuminati1113 [n=user@static-71-163-247-115.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:33 state run media 17:28:48 think of barack obama, only on TV more 17:29:15 ah, I was thinking maybe he had his own show, which would be quite amusing 17:29:30 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 17:29:38 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:42 weirdo: (put 'format 'lisp-indent-function 3) might do what you want. 17:30:41 or 2, since there's only two arguments to be "specially indented". 17:30:44 pjb, then it indents at the "o" in "format" 17:31:12 on 2 indents like without any lisp-indent-function 17:32:04 weirdo pasted "that's how i envision indentation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85134 17:32:08 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:11 Indeed, it doesn't align the non-special arguments... 17:32:13 :-( 17:32:25 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-29.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 17:32:29 i saw it like this in some book 17:32:35 blandest [n=user@79.112.97.100] has joined #lisp 17:32:41 it looks great with MAKE-INSTANCE 17:32:49 Books are typographied... 17:32:50 why not just put all of the parameters to be filled into the string on a newline each? 17:33:18 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:33:37 my "solution" is to indent first line manually, then C-j instead of RET 17:33:37 weirdo: that looks like a bad idea to me. 17:34:00 luis, it looks good if there are many columns left 17:34:10 though columns are always in shortage 17:34:36 You could write your own indent function and put it on format (and other functions like it). 17:35:52 bear in mind that this may become confusing if another person ever works on your code 17:37:17 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-29.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Client Quit] 17:40:03 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:41:04 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-26-111.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:41:35 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-223.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 17:42:22 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:42:57 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:39 anyone knows how define-cl-indent in slime-indentation contrib works? 17:44:41 -!- blandest [n=user@79.112.97.100] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:45:05 blandest [n=user@79.112.97.100] has joined #lisp 17:46:20 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 17:46:42 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 17:48:31 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:51:00 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:41 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 17:52:10 clop [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:12 anyone know how to configure sbcl's garbage collector? i've found my program runs much better on other lisps when i set, e.g., in cmucl, (ext:bytes-consed-between-gcs) to a large number, but i'm not sure what the sbcl equivalent is 17:54:58 apropos plus M-. suggests (setf (bytes-consed-between-gcs) ...) 17:57:29 sb-ext:bytes-consed-between-gcs 17:59:46 -!- Adlai-AWAY is now known as Adlai 18:01:04 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 18:03:47 You might also want to play with generationality 18:05:00 gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:54 gnite 18:11:36 'nite weirdo 18:24:18 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:24:24 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslfn155.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:24:39 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:24:45 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 18:27:31 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:30:57 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:35:25 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 18:37:08 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 18:37:21 ruepel0r [n=rue@p4FCE0A84.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:42:26 *sigh* 18:43:26 indeed 18:43:38 milanj [n=milan@93.86.55.21] has joined #lisp 18:44:06 fe[nl]ix: I guess you must feel busy with cltl3, huh? 18:44:46 the file-path thingie is coming up well, I think 18:45:09 Progress! That's great! 18:47:25 Hmm, I thought CLtL3 was about codifying existing practices. 18:47:54 luis: if the practice can become existing in the meantime... (: 18:48:17 make that pre-existing then :-) 18:48:19 luis: hating pathnames is an established practice 18:48:27 meh 18:48:37 hi, I have a good sb-bsd-sockets server example http://jsnell.iki.fi/tmp/echo-server.lisp anyone have a good client one? 18:51:15 I was *sigh*ing because this is August so I have some free time, which makes the ideas flow again, but I need to plan for the rest of the year. My best plan would be to maintain Climacs and to maintain and develop Gsharp, but during the academic year, even that is too hard. :( 18:53:16 luis: afaik if you get a good idea and write a reasonably portable implementation, it could have a chance for cltl3... but I only lurk on that list :D 18:53:49 if you can write a portable implementation what do you need CLtL3 for? 18:54:39 luis: to get it standardised? ;D 18:54:59 luis: That's like asking "if you can write a portable implementation of Lisp, what do you need Common Lisp for?". 18:55:25 luis: it is all about agreeing on the same thing. 18:56:26 I hope you are not removing pathnames completely! 18:56:33 They would be great if they worked. 18:56:42 Hey Athas! Long time no see! 18:56:53 Hi beach! 18:57:23 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has joined #lisp 18:57:49 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-199-208-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 18:58:21 luis: Though, I recognize a typical reaction on the part of Lispers! Whenever anyone is trying to reach consensus, make sure you shoot it to death in order to make your personal opinions heard (I am not talking about you personally here). 18:59:02 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:59:15 luis: And that is perhaps the main reason Lisp is forever going to be marginal compared to Python, Ruby, what have you. 18:59:53 Athas: How are your studies coming? 19:00:09 Which incidentally don't have standards. :-) 19:00:34 luis: I know most of the objections... 19:00:53 beach: excellent, thanks for asking! I finished my bachelor's project early this summer, and I'll be TA'ing the introductory programming course. 19:00:58 Brainwashing the new students. 19:01:02 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-208-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:01:11 Athas: Great! 19:01:38 Athas: I'll be in Malmø from the 19th to the 26th of August, and I am planning to have lunch or dinner with tic! Are you interested in getting together? 19:02:01 loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has joined #lisp 19:02:03 beach: sorry, but I'm attending a summer course and I have no free time at all. 19:02:05 Athas: schme would be a candidate as well, but he'll be away. 19:02:11 beach: I think it would be interesting to make some sort of Lisp distribution at first. (something similar to the 'Haskell Platform' perhaps) 19:02:16 Athas: oh, too bad! 19:03:12 luis: You might be right, and I might be in a particularly bad mood, but my immediate reaction is "so why don't you then?". 19:03:47 python and ruby might not have standards but that's because they're centrally controlled projects 19:03:58 I can provide inside intel that the Haskell world isn't as perfect and nice as it may appear on the outside. The Haskell Platform is flawed too. 19:04:05 and they're fadish languages 19:04:15 LISP has certainly stood the test of itme 19:04:18 *time 19:04:22 Athas: oh, that doesn't surprise me at all. 19:05:07 beach: oh well, I'll shut up then. :-) 19:06:02 jao [n=jao@127.Red-213-98-196.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:43 Athas: in what sense flawed ? 19:07:25 fe[nl]ix: the libraries suck (some of them)! Haskell has terrible Unicode-support, which is the biggest of all my pet peeves. 19:07:44 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:59 And many libraries are poorly conceived FFIs with fundamental design flaws. 19:08:28 That disappointed me a bit. I got the impression Haskell was nothing but Edi Weitz-quality libraries. 19:08:46 Athas, ah, bummer you can't make it. 19:08:56 -!- xenosoz1 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:09:01 Isn't mathrick in Denmark? 19:10:06 frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@blm93-2-82-229-63-104.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:14 luis: No, I meant to encourage you to go ahead and do it! 19:10:39 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-223.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:10:59 tic: Perhaps if we pay his dinner and arrange it near to where he is, he would accept? 19:11:59 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 19:12:34 what language has excellent unicode support? 19:12:39 tic: looks like mathrick is in Denmark, but it is not *that* small a country, so it might be impractical. 19:12:52 jewel: factor seems pretty good to me 19:13:03 jewel: Very few languages mention unicode at all. 19:13:03 jewel: open-source Lisps seem to have better unicode support than most. 19:13:23 SBCL had surprisingly good Unicode last time I checked. 19:13:37 beach, yeah, it's not /that/ small, indeed. 19:13:50 And if you use that Weitz library for text encoding, it's all super swell. 19:14:02 jewel: But perhaps you are confusing "languages" (which I define as standardized definitions) with "implementations". 19:14:12 "surprisingly good Unicode" 19:14:13 iconv is the answer to unicode 19:14:14 Athas: or at least there's nothing that precludes good support in the future ;) 19:14:15 I think C# has very good support too. Localisation is one thing Microsoft's very very good at. 19:14:36 hohum`: iconv sucks 19:14:36 Athas: so even if we come to København and buy your dinner, you would not be interested? 19:14:37 yeah, lang impls 19:14:46 beach: sorry, I am too busy. 19:14:48 (Unicode is not just about converting text from one encoding to another, guys) 19:15:16 Athas: Oh well, some other time I hope. 19:15:31 but since I have your attention, then, does my message to sbcl-devel of yesterday about Unicode-related stuff make sense? 19:15:46 *beach* didn't read it :( 19:17:54 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-188.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:17:58 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit ["Be back later"] 19:18:00 luis: maybe 19:18:10 SBCL doesn't have surprisingly good unicode, it has *terrible* unicode support. 19:18:16 I don't know if anything free that does unicode better though 19:18:21 -!- clop [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:18:32 hohum: SBCL? 19:18:47 Case conversion might be useful, for instance. :) 19:19:00 hohum: CCL :) 19:19:11 hohum: Although Luis might disagree ;) 19:19:14 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.180.89] has joined #lisp 19:19:33 Factor ;) 19:19:51 Krystof: makes sense to me. 19:20:14 segyr [n=segyr@199.85-200-233.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 19:20:40 -!- segyr [n=segyr@199.85-200-233.bkkb.no] has quit [Client Quit] 19:20:53 segyr [n=segyr@199.85-200-233.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 19:21:08 beach: Malmø is about 3h away from here, so it's doable, but I'm not sure I'll be able to afford it. Summer holidays are always the time of hitting the bottom of my account and moving boxes at warehouses to fix that 19:21:09 ccl has marginally better encoding/external-format support and worse character-database support than sbcl, for what it's worth 19:21:15 it depends on what one means by "good Unicode support". currently, sbcl and ccl only have a minimum compliance level 19:21:30 neither has anything more than what I would call "terrible" support for actually _working_ with characters 19:21:30 mathrick: So where are you? 19:21:44 beach: Odense, about 1,5h away from Copenhagen 19:22:04 okay I'll rephrase that 19:22:12 mathrick: How about meeting in København? also too expensive? 19:22:18 beach, tic: but please keep me posted if you settle on a date, I'll be able to decide if I can make it after all when it's closer and I know if I'm going to work that day 19:22:23 beach: significantly less 19:22:32 but it also depends on whether I'll be working 19:22:48 I don't know anything better free for languages other than lisp :) 19:22:51 but yeah, it'd be much cheaper, both money- and time-wise 19:22:59 mathrick: I think it would be great to meet up for lunch or dinner in København. 19:23:05 so do I 19:23:12 foom: mind you, terrible unicode support can nevertheless be "surprisingly good" 19:23:25 Krystof: I thought CCL had the full character database, but I admit it's not a part of the code I'm familiar with. 19:23:27 mathrick: I'll buy you dinner if you pay transportation. 19:23:31 Krystof: That is true, I neglected to take that into account. :) 19:23:45 beach: and if it goes well, we'll get to see tic try to communicate with Danes in SLOW AND LOUD SWEDISH, that is always hilarious 19:23:59 beach: oh, that's very nice of you :) 19:24:21 yeah, covering the transportation is okay, as long as I won't have any work that day 19:24:31 I'll know closer to the meeting date 19:24:37 I hope someone will be brave enough to incompatibly modify the string parsing in CL at some point, so that you can have \ escapes in it. 19:24:40 (working temp jobs, y'see) 19:24:59 foom: cl-interpol not good enough? 19:25:19 foom: I'm hoping a new, non-interning reader makes it into CLtL3 as a standard 19:25:21 mathrick: I can understand danish (or at least I used to be able to), but Danes tend to understand Swedish better than Skånska (probably due to television). 19:25:37 beach: oh, what's your language? 19:25:49 luis: cl-interpol is fine, but doesn't fix the printer, and I don't really want interpolation at all, just character escapes. 19:25:53 a non-interning reader is on the cltl3 wish list, I think. fe[nl]ix? 19:25:56 mathrick: My native language is Malmöitiska. 19:26:04 oh, I didn't know 19:26:14 so I get to see two Swedes trying to communicate with Danes 19:26:18 mathrick, haha, I'll do my best. :-) (I can actually talk some Danish) 19:26:19 that's gonna be awesome 19:26:30 mathrick: and with each other! :) 19:26:33 voidpointer [i=bd6fd10d@gateway/web/freenode/x-ed048abdb779950b] has joined #lisp 19:26:33 hehe 19:26:42 if not, we can revert to Polish. 19:26:50 beach: but you can speak riksmål, no? 19:26:51 Fade: if somebody will write one, yes 19:26:52 (alas, I'm forgetting more and more every day. *sigh*) 19:27:00 mathrick: Not really. 19:27:11 i was just wondering if it was on the Great List of Features that'd be nice. 19:27:31 beach: hmm, care to explain? I thought all Swedes can do that 19:27:39 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-32-46.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:27:46 mathrick: I learned to make myself understood while I studied in Linköping, but I am not very good at it. 19:28:14 I didn't know the dialectal separation was so strong in your parts 19:28:16 mathrick: we can understand eachother if we make an effort, but speaking is a different matter. 19:28:22 heh 19:28:33 Fade: it is. incidentally, it would be very useful to ASDF 19:28:41 *Fade* nods 19:28:55 foom: How about #f"..." which would allow format directives, and then you could use ~'#xDEADBEEF/escape/, erm, ok that's half-serious :) 19:28:55 well, I guess it's like trying to understand synnerjysk here 19:28:56 hi, what's the opposite of read-from-string? ie. ( (print 'foo)) => "(print 'foo") 19:29:00 Quadre` [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #lisp 19:29:02 mathrick: Anyway, we cal always speak English. 19:29:04 beach, haha, you have that a thick accent? wonderful, this ought to be fun. 19:29:11 "(print 'foo)" * 19:29:21 tic: *such a thick, or *that thick an accent 19:29:26 I think the simple extension of having \n \r \t \N{UNICODE} \xfe \uffff \U0000ffff would improve usability a lot. 19:30:05 tic: It used to be less pronounced, but when I moved to the US, I forgot most of the concessions to Swedish that I had learned. You be the judge. 19:30:08 mathrick, spanks. I blame my tiredness. 19:30:13 And leave \othercharacter as undefined behavior instead of meaning the character itself, to allow for future extensibility. :) 19:30:29 Fade, fe[nl]ix: isn't there one in Alexandria or CCL or whatever? I know someone pointed me to a portable implementation 19:30:45 beach, yup. and you can be the judge of my French! I'm trying to learn a song in French right now. 19:31:06 tic: I can probably still fake a somewhat plausible Göteborg accent, and certainly Linköping and Västerås. 19:31:17 his kubb, however, is atrocious 19:31:29 beach: so you're a Swede living in the US? Or a more complicated breed than that? 19:32:00 foom: There's no ~u directive, so it could be ~'123U. :) 19:32:21 mathrick: *much* more complicated! I live in Bordeaux, but I have lived in the US, and in New Zealand, and more recently, I spend some 20% of my time in Vietnam. 19:32:21 egn: (princ-to-string (quote ...)) perhaps. 19:32:49 Xach: thanks 19:32:58 beach: and I bet you're also half-Navajo 19:33:13 tcr: in a quoted string, you can't use ~ 19:33:20 but yeah, it sounds pretty complex 19:33:23 <-- part ojibwa :) so long as we're talking about mongrels. ;) 19:33:26 mathrick: not that I know 19:33:34 fe[nl]ix: I 19:33:39 'd have to review my logs 19:34:03 foom: in #f"..." you can 19:34:08 *tic* moves back to the sofa 19:34:15 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 19:34:17 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:34:28 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 19:35:00 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:05 mathrick: don't think so, but we suspect I have Spanish genes. I'll explain sometimes. My wife has American-Indian blood though. 19:37:09 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 19:41:41 ski__ [n=md9slj@remote3.student.chalmers.se] has joined #lisp 19:41:53 wait, I've been here for over 2 years? 19:41:55 *mathrick* is surprised it's been so long already 19:42:27 mathrick: I'll be busy for dinner on Friday 21st, and I don't know my schedule during the weekend. And I know I'll be busy on Monday afternoon and probably evening, so the most plausible possibilities would be the 20th or the 25h. 19:42:41 eh, I love how thrashing on the disk kills my wifi 19:43:04 mathrick: Though, since I agreed to pay your transportation, I can pay it to Malmø as well if you prefer. 19:43:23 beach: oh, I thought we agreed I paid for my transportation 19:43:36 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:49 mathrick: Oh, right. It doesn't matter that much! 19:43:59 pdo [n=user@dyn-62-56-51-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:44:32 beach: okay, how much of an advance do you need in picking the date? 19:44:34 and tic 19:44:50 mathrick: we should figure out whether, and if so where and when to meet up, and we'll figure out money later. 19:44:58 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:45:10 beach: I'd definitely love to meet 19:45:21 What are you guys planning to meet about? 19:45:28 TDT: dinner 19:45:34 and talking presumably 19:45:49 mathrick: oh, ok, yeah that's simple enough, 19:46:01 I'd rather eat and stare 19:46:19 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-56-146.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:46:51 *Xach* has greatly enjoyed his trips to meet up with Boston lisp nerds 19:47:30 *tic* can meet up pretty much whenever from now to 31st. 19:48:31 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:49:21 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:35 aren't there more Swedes and/or Danes here? 19:50:33 i count towards danes, but i wouldn't know about the rest 19:50:34 -!- voidpointer [i=bd6fd10d@gateway/web/freenode/x-ed048abdb779950b] has quit [] 19:50:46 I'm a swede if you consider a big irish dude living in souther california sweediish 19:50:49 mjf [n=mjf@r11gy207.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 19:50:49 -i 19:50:54 +n 19:50:59 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 19:51:00 clearly I can't type today 19:51:02 neobakuer [i=bd6fd10d@gateway/web/freenode/x-111f59e83d2ff042] has joined #lisp 19:51:43 aside from schme and hypno, I'd guess Idebesiktningen is a Swede. Not familiar with other nicks. 19:52:01 what's the best lisp implementation to windows? 19:52:22 -!- pdo [n=user@dyn-62-56-51-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has left #lisp 19:52:26 neobakuer: lispworks seems pretty good to me. 19:52:42 neobakuer: i have not used it, but there is an active community of windows users that have delivered commercial applications with it. 19:53:03 ohh this sounds great, thanks =] 19:53:21 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-186.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:53:46 if i was have to use windows, i'd try clozure common lisp first 19:54:02 hohum`: You are welcome to join us for lunch or dinner, but I won't pay your way. 19:54:08 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-212-118.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:54:20 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-188.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:54:26 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 19:54:30 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:55:00 what about Corman? It's very windows, but weren't there sticky issues with it? 19:56:11 Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:13 mathrick: last i checked, corman was not very actively developed. however, i don't read the corman lists but i do read the lispworks lists. 19:56:26 I see' 19:57:52 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:58:09 -!- Quadre` is now known as Quadrescence 20:02:07 Xach: Hasn't been a new Corman version for many years. 20:05:00 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:05:22 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:05:27 |kosh| [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:06:40 fwiw, clozure seems to work where sbcl doesn't have parity (windows and ppc/osx) 20:06:45 zoldar [n=zoldar@kyh66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:07:02 What's wrong with SBCL on PPC? 20:07:12 threads 20:08:12 Hmm, didn't know lisp even used threads, gotta look that up too, heh 20:09:18 TDT: connection machine lisp was the first massively parallel execution language I can think of. 20:09:35 at any rate, the lisp history /w parallel execution is quite long. 20:09:54 TDP: depends on the implementation. 20:10:53 The ANSI spec avoids specifying some areas like sockets, and threading 20:11:02 salva [n=salva@imaxeson.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:03 ... Do we have good documentation on what the user-visible threading model is for SBCL? 20:11:20 nyef: bordeaux-threads :) 20:11:35 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 20:11:41 azuk`` [i=azure@s2.org] has joined #lisp 20:11:46 Ah, right. dan?b's work. 20:11:48 is weblocks the priniciple hunchentoot ui these days? 20:12:05 mathrick: doesn't specify anything wrt memory model. 20:12:13 mathrick: That's just a thin portabillity layer on top of the native threads 20:12:19 *ui/app layer/whatever 20:12:21 hi somebody using picolisp on os x? 20:12:28 i'd say UCW is the principal hunchentoot ui, but only because i don't know anybody working with weblocks. 20:12:40 That's another toggle that would be nice to have, after the floatsy stuff. 20:13:16 Lycurgus: no, but it's one fairly popular option 20:13:19 Fade, last I knew UCW was both inactive and incompatible with HT so thanks. 20:13:23 Fade: hello then 20:13:25 ... Condition variables? Ugh. 20:13:46 well, ucw isn't inactive, hey mathrick :) 20:14:03 jthing: yes, but it doesn't change the fact I never use sbcl threads directly 20:14:25 ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:46 Fade, are you saying mathrick is a current maintainer of ucw? 20:14:46 sbcl threads are basically OS threads anyhow. 20:14:49 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:11 Lycurgus: no, drewc and unknown_lamer are both very active in the ucw dev front. 20:15:25 k 20:15:25 Mmm... The issue is what to do about SBCL threads on non-posixoid enviornments. 20:15:32 CMUCL still uses green threads on some platforms 20:15:58 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:16:03 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@p4FCE0A84.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:16:06 -!- gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 20:16:52 tic: You might have privmsg 20:18:10 mathrick: do you prefer dinner on the 20th or the 25th? 20:20:43 beach: hard to say, but I guess 25th 20:22:37 -!- |kosh| is now known as kosh` 20:24:05 mathrick: OK, I might get you both invited to my niece's place on the 24th (all afternoon) but I might have to check that. 20:24:43 that'd be nice. 20:25:04 shiny 20:26:45 -!- segyr [n=segyr@199.85-200-233.bkkb.no] has quit [] 20:27:24 segyr [n=segyr@199.85-200-233.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 20:29:55 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:32:40 -!- zoldar [n=zoldar@kyh66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:33:15 -!- salva [n=salva@imaxeson.net] has quit [] 20:34:31 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:34:50 tic, mathrick send mail to my niece to check availabilities. Might not be possible though. 20:35:18 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@static-71-163-247-115.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["going home"] 20:35:35 beach, are /we/ to send e-mail, or are you? :-) 20:35:52 tic: *sent, sorry! 20:35:58 in case your niece is single and in the proper age, that could be an incentive for her to let us in. ;-) 20:36:06 okay, good! 20:36:37 tic: She is married and she and her husband just adopted a child from China. 20:36:40 a buch of drueling geeks.. I would guess she is thrilled. 20:36:47 lol 20:37:04 tic: Sorry (I guess)! 20:39:41 Been looking at the source for CCL's precise garbage collector 20:39:51 -!- neobakuer [i=bd6fd10d@gateway/web/freenode/x-111f59e83d2ff042] has quit [] 20:40:02 -!- crod [n=cmell@KD124213182069.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:40:05 tic: According to my records, she is 37. 20:40:54 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:41:47 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:42:04 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:43:34 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:43:50 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:28 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:28 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:47:05 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 20:47:23 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:48:23 Is there a matlab frontend for Lisp? 20:48:38 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:49:04 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:50:31 jthing: I suggest you make yourself useful and mastermind a project to replace matlab by a Lisp library/application. We have some stuff to contribute, and then we need for someone to write up the specs for the rest. 20:51:00 rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:42 jthing: This would be much more useful than your recent "contributions" here, which make me regret having encouraged people not to kick/ban you again. 20:52:36 ... but like I said, I am in a particularly bad mood, and maybe it's just me... 20:52:46 beach: axiom has a NAD backend which can be used 20:52:59 However NAD is not free 20:54:00 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:54:04 jthing: I don't know NAD, but a CLIM interface to Maxima and/or Octave would be nice. 20:54:18 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:50 The work today is on a firefox interface to axiom 20:54:57 Or even better, a Lisp-version of Matlab, which, as I understan, would not be too hard. 20:54:58 using XUL 20:55:13 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:55:38 jthing: Fine, as long as you make yourself useful. 20:56:42 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:57:10 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslgz252.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:57:54 *gigamonkey* <3's negative-lookahead regexps. 20:58:21 -!- kmels is now known as kmels-away 20:58:57 gigamonkey: So you are not coming to Hamburg? 20:59:04 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-205-43.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:59:19 masm [n=masm@bl7-205-43.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:59:38 beach: Nope. Krystof will get mad at me if I burn any more carbon jet-setting around the world. 20:59:48 Drink a beer for me. 20:59:52 Come in Sail! 21:00:11 gigamonkey: Would wine be OK? 21:00:21 Fair enough. 21:00:28 Will do! 21:01:05 gigamonkey: They have some great Pinot Noir (I think they call it Dornfelder) there. 21:01:31 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:38 beach, oh bummer. :-) 21:01:44 splittist [n=dmurray@80.169.130.126] has joined #lisp 21:01:46 morning 21:01:52 hello splittist 21:01:55 hmm..I wonder if I can do a talk on Common Lisp for Iowa Code Camp...so tempting. 21:02:50 gigamonkey: You will be missed! I have already told several people you would be likely to show up. 21:02:51 -!- jlf` is now known as jlf 21:02:56 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:03:13 Hey, beach! 21:03:26 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:03:48 gigamonkey: Some nice reviews! What's the most lucrative to you way to order a copy of the forthcoming masterpiece? 21:04:53 -!- demmel [n=demmel@c092.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 21:05:14 splittist: Well, I can't tell you that you should go to http://www.codersatwork.com/ and click on the Amazon link. 21:05:39 And I *definitely* can't tell you that while you're there at Amazon, you should make a bunch of other expensive purchases. 21:05:56 gigamonkey: consider it not said! 21:06:15 I didn't read anything. 21:06:22 *stassats* didn't witness anything 21:08:09 -!- illumina` [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 21:08:15 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:08:16 *stassats* is sleeping, in fact 21:08:43 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:52 gigamonkey: After your presentation at google on CL, were you asked to do other presentations on the language? 21:10:11 *splittist* discovers some very strange things left in his Amazon cart from --- when? 21:10:46 jthing: I just noticed your remark about using Firefox to make a UI for a lisp program. If you'd like, drop me a line --- I did this my self a while ago (and need to raise the code from the dead sometime soon). 21:11:13 *Krystof* waves at gigamonkey 21:12:00 *gigamonkey* waves back. 21:12:35 splittist: here's the blurb from the latest review: "Absolutely amazing! A page turner, just like Harry Potter for the technically minded." ;-) 21:13:26 what, full of stuff copied by an author from other sources? 21:13:36 Anyone close to Malmø, Sweden between August 19 and August 26 should let me know. We might have dinner/lunch/beer/wine/whatever together. 21:13:43 Krystof: Well, 15 other sources. 21:13:45 rejected by 39 publishing houses? 21:14:07 increasingly in need of an editor? 21:14:16 :-) 21:14:39 I'm not up on the Harry Potter scuttlebut. Is Rowlings accused of lifting specific stuff? Or just that she's retelling classic good-vs-evil plotlines. 21:14:40 -!- Idebesiktningen is now known as Soemnbesiktigar 21:14:57 TDT: not on CL per se. Sadly, before that talk at Google, I had done a talk at the LispNCY group which I think went off much better but sadly the video did not come out at all. 21:14:57 "lifting" is a bit too strong 21:15:26 gigamonkey: Hmm, I thought the presentation was good, that's actually what got me into CL. 21:15:34 it's more that it's utterly generic with not really any originality to show 21:15:42 Bah, as we all know, Harry Potter is below Lisp In Small Pieces. 21:15:49 Headcrab [n=ThomasH@d142-179-29-162.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:51 Krystof: it's as if no-one ever read the footnotes to 'The Wasteland'... 21:15:58 rpg: will do 21:16:02 (in my opinion, etc. If you want _good_ children's fiction of that genre, go for Diana Wynne Jones) 21:16:04 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:30 gigamonkey: you can't tell an original story these days. Really. Much the same way all the big things in CS were already discovered/invented 30 years ago, anything really significant in storytelling was already done and redone a couple thousand years ago :P 21:16:47 -!- Pepe__ is now known as Pepe_ 21:16:50 Rpg: The issue is displaying math using MathML 21:16:52 see also: TVTropes :-) 21:17:21 jthing: so does the user actually interact with the program via Firefox, or only display formulas? 21:17:31 s/interact with/control/ 21:17:43 the fact that there are only, what? 5 stories doesn't excuse authors from providing interesting detail 21:17:59 Rpg: And manipulating the DOM to allow interactive editing of formulae 21:18:03 http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/amazon.ca.ps 21:18:17 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:18:27 Krystof: so she provided all the interesting detail in the first 2.5 books... 21:18:55 jthing: but you're not using it to actually control axiom? 21:19:05 rpg: so far it only displays them, I am working on the editing bit 21:19:13 I'll leave the Harry Potter discussion hanging there, I think 21:19:32 rpg: yes, that is the intention 21:19:36 *splittist* is in London at the moment, and might (or might not) have some time Wednesday morning. ('Wednesday morning, highly unlikely, But it's all I can do, ...') 21:19:46 jthing: I was using firefox to control a program that was running as a web server. It worked, but it was quite awkward at times. 21:19:56 seriously, though: Diana Wynne Jones. "Eight Days of Luke", "Dark Lord of Derkholm", "Year of the Griffin" 21:20:15 splittist: ah, now we're talking. Feel like meeting? 21:20:26 London is a big place, of course 21:21:02 "I'm in the EU at the moment..." 21:21:04 Krystof: I have to be back in Knightsbridge by 14h00 21:21:06 rpg: We create a custom window in which firefox run's and create our own menues and controls to make it easier to use. 21:21:53 Krystof: you are welcome to join me for a power-breakfast at my hotel, but it is W1 21:22:14 minion: twap to jthing 21:22:15 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``twap''. 21:22:19 jthing: so how do you control firefox? You have it open a socket that you read and write to ? 21:22:22 Krystof: actually, /S/W1X 21:22:30 minion: thwap to jthing 21:22:31 jthing: direct your attention towards thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 21:22:35 Krystof: re: Wynne Jones, Cool, I'm always looking for good new kids' books. 21:23:03 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:23:27 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2C61E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:45 rpg: firefox isn't just a web browser, it can also be used to customize interfaces to applications 21:23:55 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 21:24:39 jthing: right. However, there are multiple different ways to use firefox; I'm trying to figure out which way you are using... 21:24:59 splittist: Hrm, I can't leave the house before 9am 21:25:12 it'd be a bit of a late breakfast 21:25:16 maybe next time 21:25:41 gigamonkey: excellent. I haven't yet found a dud of hers 21:25:52 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-48-148.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:26:28 rpg: why don't you study the axiom code? 21:27:05 Krystof: I can (leave the house before 9am). 21:27:19 jthing: never mind. I thought you might want to chat about using Firefox. I don't really care about Axiom; I was just interested in comparing CL + Firefox notes. If you aren't, that's fine. 21:28:18 rpg. later perhaps. It is midnight here and I should go to bed 21:28:56 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:31:05 tic, mathrick: plan for an all afternoon/evening at my niece's place in Höör on august 24th. 21:31:27 rpg: yes, I use a socket, as a pipe proved unsucessful in sbcl 21:31:28 -!- frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@blm93-2-82-229-63-104.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:32:13 jthing: Ah. So you are making a bona-fide firefox application, rather than just using XUL that gets loaded into Firefox. I tried that, but the results were...unhappy. 21:32:58 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:33:01 rpg: so are mine, so far 21:33:02 -!- segyr [n=segyr@199.85-200-233.bkkb.no] has quit [] 21:33:17 schme: You are *so* going to regret being in Madrid! 21:34:09 jthing: I'm not surprised. I ended up sticking to using XUL loaded into Firefox because that was the only way I could use Firebug. If I had made a bona fide FF application, I would have had to use (yuck) Venkman. 21:34:22 Venkman may not be the worst debugger in the world, but it's got to be in the running. 21:34:25 schme: Though what about your wife? Can I invite her? 21:36:21 rpg: I debug it in a standard firefox for the panes. Then I put it into the UI. That way I get firbug to work. 21:36:33 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B169E6B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:37:01 Until I am sure of the code. 21:37:44 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@e179119181.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:37:59 jthing: I guess I don't understand --- you can't use firebug with your socket code, can you, because firebug only debugs un-privileged code, and you have to be privileged code to open a socket... 21:38:41 rpg: try the MozRepl, it's pretty amazing (and it runs at chrome privileges) 21:38:47 rpg: (and there's an emacs mode for it) 21:39:03 oh, and I think there is a firebug chrome edition that can debug chrome-level js 21:39:23 antifuchs: I was thinking of doing that --- it came out just when I was finishing up the first phase of work on that program. 21:39:34 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [] 21:39:37 antifuchs: Is that chromebug you refer to? 21:39:39 rpg: You are wrong about that. You have to tell it that it is local and not from the net though. 21:40:00 rpg: possibly, I can't really remember what it was called 21:40:37 jthing: really? That's surprising... If you have a snippet of code with a socket opening in it, I would be very grateful if you could send it to me. 21:40:44 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954FF2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 21:40:48 jthing: I will slip you my email address on the side... 21:41:19 rpg: I don't remeber it. I'll get back to you. 21:41:37 rpg: yeah, http://getfirebug.com/extensions/#chromebug is what I meant 21:41:38 jthing: Thanks! That would be great. 21:41:43 rpg: Have you got a email adress I can use? 21:41:43 hi, can I muffle all output of REQUIRE? (sbcl) 21:42:10 jthing: I tried to send it to you using the QUERY IRC command. I guess that didn't work... 21:42:14 egn: not from REQUIRE, but asdf:oos can be muffled 21:42:26 egn: I think it's :verbose nil 21:42:29 antifuchs: k, thanks 21:42:34 rpg: QUERY isn't an irc protocol command. /query is a common client command 21:42:39 rpg: yes it did. 21:42:52 rpg: I'll get back to you 21:42:57 night all 21:43:01 also, you might have to handler-bind the STYLE-WARNING and NOTE conditions to #'muffle-warning, then everything should be very quiet 21:43:02 jthing: thanks again! good night! 21:43:07 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 21:43:40 egn: when in doubt, bind all standard streams to the return value of (make-broadcast-stream) (-: 21:43:55 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:47:46 antifuchs: oy, that works 21:48:19 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-16042.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:48:40 antifuchs: wait, jk. (with-output-to-string (make-broadcast-stream) (require :foo)) 21:48:48 antifuchs: not how I'm supposed to do it? 21:48:52 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:49:09 hm, not quite 21:49:17 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:49:59 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 21:50:31 (let ((*error-output* (make-broadcast-stream)) (*standard-output* (make-broadcast-stream)) #| and so on|#) (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :system :verbose nil)) 21:50:42 ah 21:50:55 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-18.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 21:51:58 ahh thank you 21:52:24 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:53:46 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-78-106.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:54:02 ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-19-168.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:54:44 -!- sea-gull [i=seagull@server1.bshellz.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:55:14 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:57:38 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:57:50 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:00:21 -!- paw` [n=paw`@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has left #lisp 22:00:56 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 22:03:48 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslgz252.osnanet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 22:05:21 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["brb"] 22:07:42 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 22:08:25 clhs describe 22:08:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_descri.htm 22:09:44 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-1-50.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 22:10:24 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:14 <_stink_> new to lisp, and trying to play w/ cl-sdl. i tried doing 'clisp example1.lisp' on my bash prompt and got this error: 'there is no package with name "SDL"'. any advice? on ubuntu 9.04, clisp 2.44.1. 22:12:35 <_stink_> unsure if i need to do something else at the prompt to get packages ready to use. 22:14:28 -!- hohum` [n=user@208.90.33.43] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:15:34 -!- Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:17:10 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:17:46 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:18:51 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:20:45 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@80.169.130.126] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"] 22:22:27 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:23:13 elias` [n=c@cs78208074.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:23:27 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:24:33 ... Isn't cl-sdl massively deprecated these days? 22:24:45 <_stink_> dunno. has something taken its place? 22:25:16 <_stink_> seems that cl-sdl works mostly with cmucl, and less well with others. 22:25:29 <_stink_> but if i should be playing w/ something else, i'd be happy to hear. 22:26:29 minion: lispbuilder 22:26:30 lispbuilder: LispBuilder is a Common Lisp Application Builder providing several useful cross-platform packages for Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/lispbuilder 22:28:01 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:43 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:29:45 -!- keithr [n=user@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:31:54 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:32:18 'night all! 22:32:22 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:34:12 nighty! 22:35:51 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:38:36 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 22:42:48 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:43:08 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:44:20 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r11gy207.net.upc.cz] has quit ["GNU is (indeed) NO UNIX! Really!"] 22:45:22 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:22 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:51 dto: Hey, what do you use for SDL bindings? cl-sdl, lispbuilder, or something else? 22:52:00 lispbuilder-sdl 22:52:38 nyef: API is good, docs are decent, developers easy to reach, we have got binary packages working for windows/max/linux 22:52:41 s/max/mac 22:54:14 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Client Quit] 22:54:44 Okay, cool. 22:54:57 Apparently some people are still finding cl-sdl and trying to use it. 22:55:21 i think the lispbuilder-sdl is more active. 22:56:20 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:56:41 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-48-148.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:57:23 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 22:57:50 -!- rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:57:55 <_stink_> dto and nyef: thanks for the info on sdl! (dto: i asked about this before you /joined) 22:58:16 _stink_: cool :) np 22:59:43 _stink_: are you working on a game? 22:59:48 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C84C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:00:41 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:02:09 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has joined #lisp 23:02:18 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:04:08 <_stink_> dto: thinking about starting one, yep. been using stumpwm for a while but i think a game will provide more of a spark for me than hacking on a wm. 23:04:27 <_stink_> but mostly i imagine this as a learning vehicle that will be more fun. 23:05:20 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.11.116] has joined #lisp 23:06:21 vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 23:06:35 -!- vsync_ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:06:42 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-076-241.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:00 _stink_: hey, i used stumpwm for a good while 23:07:04 i use awesomewm these days 23:07:28 it's still a little awkward to use the gimp, but not like it was for me in stumpwm. 23:07:39 plus, it works with the systray, which i have several uses for. 23:08:29 <_stink_> dto: i looked at awesome too - i liked it, but stuck w/ stumpwm. i don't spend much time in gimp, and use pypanel when i need nm-applet or something. but i love awesome's preset layouts and flipping b/t them 23:09:50 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:10:59 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:11:23 _stink_: i use the gimp alot for tiles for my game 23:11:27 all 16x16 :) 23:11:37 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:11:38 <_stink_> dto: you're doing the roguelike, right? 23:11:43 <_stink_> i think i tried it a few months ago 23:11:44 yup 23:11:52 <_stink_> how's that coming? 23:11:53 it's had a lot of neww stuff the last month 23:12:01 <_stink_> cool. i should retry 23:12:02 http://lispgamesdev.blogspot.com 23:12:10 sure. what platform are you on? 23:12:22 you can get it running almost anywhere but linux is simplest right now 23:12:28 <_stink_> yep, linux 23:12:39 there's a thing on the blog about precompiled binaries 23:12:48 they are reported by 2 people to work on linux. 23:13:06 _stink_: are you into roguelikes generally? 23:13:29 <_stink_> well nethack, yes. :) i'm afraid to try others for fear of losing all of time to them 23:13:41 yeah same here. i played ToME for a month straight 23:13:45 all night 23:13:47 creepy :) 23:13:55 <_stink_> haha 23:13:56 i started dreaming in 16x16 23:14:01 <_stink_> i must resist. 23:14:06 writing a roguelike makes it even worse. 23:14:31 -!- Headcrab [n=ThomasH@d142-179-29-162.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:14:32 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.55.21] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:14:43 blast is more physics-and-action oriented, but will also have elements of resource management (for example the game requires refueling) 23:14:58 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:15:06 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [] 23:17:54 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:02 <_stink_> dto: oo, cool. just peeked at the webpage 23:18:55 check out the video if you like 23:20:31 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:04 _stink_: let me know if you try it 23:21:33 _stink_: i recently read an article about possibly games being a killer app for lisp, but i dunno how farfetched that is :) 23:22:13 directx or die 23:22:16 Maybe game AI? 23:22:48 kosh`: Funny thing, that... Somewhere around I have partial plans for the COM junk required to be able to use DirectX from SBCL. 23:22:56 so far implementing pathfinding and lighting and stuff has been very fun in lisp 23:23:21 I'm thinking I might do a console-style RPG in Lisp. 23:23:40 *rpg* is SO console-style... 23:23:46 Heh. 23:23:50 backend ai, lisp would be great 23:23:55 At least you're not report program generator. 23:23:58 _stink_: check out the lighting video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Epz4P53Oxlk 23:24:19 nyef: cool! 23:24:45 dto: The volume in those videos is awful low for me. :-/ 23:24:57 nyef: i'm trying to make a retro 80s space game, but with modern computing resources :) 23:25:05 i.e. more onscreen objects 23:25:09 nyef: sorry :( 23:25:23 maybe Blizzard would be doing better stuff with WoW if their dbs ran off allegrograph or something, lisp just doesnt seem to have the graphic designers attention. thats where gaming is, writ large 23:25:54 brb 23:26:31 as much as we all love rpgs :D 23:26:40 i play tinymux siyes 23:26:41 Retro 80s space game? Like... Space Rogue, maybe? 23:27:31 a killer mud client would be a good start 23:27:31 then build on it to make a mmorpg 23:27:53 I made a retro 50's space game once (albeit, not in Lisp). 23:28:56 i'd pay money for a good lisp mux client 23:30:15 i did some work on this client, but it's java http://bt-thud.sourceforge.net 23:30:54 my thought was to maybe stuff abcl in there somehow for scripting, but its still a little over my head 23:34:27 hi. nyef: yes 23:34:34 you think somebody who knew abcl could do something with that? 23:34:51 23:35:17 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-78-106.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:35:22 hi Xach 23:36:26 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 23:38:20 ahaas: understatement of the century. I was hooked to that game of yours for so long. It's *hard*. 23:38:55 fusss: Thanks! 23:39:26 hey that looks quite cool. 23:40:58 puzzle farter FTW! 23:41:08 hey ahaas :) 23:41:15 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:19 Hi drewc! 23:41:28 I live 3000 miles closer to you now. 23:41:38 ahaas: where's that now? 23:41:44 Portland, OR 23:42:03 ahaas: i'll end up there sooner or later... especially in 2011 23:42:15 What's in 2011? 23:42:37 portland and vancouver join the MLS! (soccer). 23:43:10 there is a great friendly rivalry between the Timbers (you) and the Whitecaps (us). 23:43:14 Cool. Well, let me know if you're here. 23:43:49 I never heard of the Timbers until this weekend. I saw a bunch of people with scarves walking to the stadium, so I asked someone what was going on. 23:43:49 playoffs are soon, who knows :) 23:44:06 seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:44:41 What does dynamic vs. static typing mean with regards to lisp? 23:44:49 Great club, and their supporters are proper as well... you should check out a game... even if you don't like football it's a great atmosphere 23:45:32 We have a new made-with-lisp site on that server, btw, but the published version is actually static (for now): http://popcornfiction.com 23:45:51 seb-: it means that variables are not typed, but data is typed. 23:45:52 I will! I'm not a sports fan, but I enjoy going to the games. 23:46:02 cool, we like lisp :) 23:46:20 seb-: so you can store either a string or a number in a variable, but you cannot add a string to a number (like you may in, says, C++). 23:46:27 pjb: i'm reading some histories of lisp...they say stuff like "lisp started out w/ dynamic scope but then Scheme gave us lexical scoping and that was better" 23:46:43 That's correct. Scopes are not types. 23:47:02 he said dynamic vs static... didn't mention types at all :) 23:47:06 pjb: sorry...my original question should be been what is diff bet dynamic and lexical types 23:47:21 drewc: he said "typing". 23:47:22 pjb: (I'm trying to decode Paul Graham's paper) 23:47:32 seb-: there's no "lexical type". 23:47:32 oh .. so he did 23:47:36 pjb: "Roots of Lisp" 23:47:45 *drewc* missed it 23:47:53 pjb: darn....i meant "dynamical and lexical *SCOPES*" 23:48:01 man this is hard to type right 23:48:14 -!- _stink_ [n=stink@c-71-238-27-187.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:48:54 seb-: (defun f (y) (+ x y)) (let ((x 1)) (f 3)) --> error, x is not defined in the lexical scope of F. In F, x is a undefined free variable. 23:49:19 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:22 seb-: (defvar x 2 "all global variables in CL are dynamic variables") (defun f (y) (+ x y)) (let ((x 1)) (f 3)) --> 4 ; LET binds a special variable, it's a dynamic binding. While the LET is executing ie, when calling F, X is bound to 1 instead of 2. 23:50:25 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-214.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:51:03 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:51:11 pjb: let is like a "temp scope" or "tiny scope" in my newb mind 23:51:21 pjb: is that right? 23:51:54 LET creates variable bindings. 23:51:59 pjb: ok 23:52:05 It gives names to expressions. 23:52:08 anyone know of secure systems that allow users to grant finer-grained access to their objects to other users, other than the unix owner/group/all model? say (grant-access (find-user "tommy") '(:read :write :grant)) I need real-world inspiration. 23:52:09 See: http://www.flownet.com/ron/specials.pdf 23:52:12 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32D073.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:19 seb-: See: http://www.flownet.com/ron/specials.pdf 23:52:37 fusss: capability based systems. 23:52:42 fusss: 'role based access control' is a good google start 23:52:45 hi drew 23:52:45 I am currently look at Rees' thesis, hoping to skim it over the rest of the day http://mumble.net/~jar/pubs/secureos/secureos.html 23:53:02 fusss: a nice example is EROS; its successor is coyotos, but it's developer has been "bought" by Microsoft. 23:53:09 pjb: will that pdf define lexical and dynamic scoping? 23:53:12 thanks for responding to that invite 23:53:14 seb-: yes. 23:53:21 pjb: THANK YOU! 23:53:36 drewc: I have write Win32 security code and RBAC with ACLs bit me a bit; anything you recommend besides Sybase and MS? 23:53:54 fusss: postgresql 23:54:02 hey kosh` 23:54:19 drewc: nice! 23:54:26 seb-: notice that scheme knows only lexical bindings; emacs lisp knows only dynamic bindings; common lisp and iso lisp know both, but iso lisp has a special syntax for dynamic variables (dynamic x); In CL it's advised to use the naming convention *x* for dynamic variables. 23:55:09 *drewc* much prefers the iso lisp way 23:55:23 pjb: ok 23:55:27 drewc: I intend to model this in the application layer. we use a RDBMS but it's just an a dump, everything is done above an ORM 23:56:27 drewc: (defmacro dynamic (var) (intern (format nil "*~A*" var))) 23:56:36 :-) 23:56:56 + (symbol-package var) 23:57:17 fusss: I use contextl to model access control for the higher-level things. 23:57:48 pjb: i implemented a core lisp and handled defun's w/ search-and-replaces 23:58:04 pjb: actually, i use pcos's DEFDYNAMIC, as i also want his DYNAMIC-WIND 23:58:19 pjb: everything was dandy until multiple defuns used the same *NAMES* for variables 23:58:31 pjb: i wonder if that is related to our convo 23:58:44 seb-: perhaps you should read AIM-8 and AIM-453... 23:58:45 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:58:56 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 23:59:01 even worse.. i use it to implement continuations ..... i'm a traitor to the CL cause! :) 23:59:04 Seems you have encountered the main problem with dynamic variables 23:59:09 scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-70-156.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:14 pjb: i googled for aim-8 and didn't get anything lispy 23:59:20 seb-: yes, probably you had dynamic variables, therefore no closure. It's an old, classical problem which led to the invention of lexical scope. 23:59:31 pjb: oh wait..found it 23:59:47 Yes,just add "lisp" to get anything lispy :-) 23:59:50 'aim-8 lisp' gets you pjb :) 23:59:55 pjb: yup