00:01:07 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:02:54 thanks, sbcl devs 00:03:41 not being able to find the comma has been my gripe for such a long time 00:03:49 and now you changed it! thanks! 00:04:54 the comma? 00:04:55 eh? 00:05:09 (defun foo () (foo ,f)) 00:05:37 C-c on it 00:05:44 i mean C-c C-c 00:05:46 sbcl now tell where it is 00:06:51 is this a new feature? should I update my sbcl? 00:07:56 *Adlai* usually uses C-s to find offending syntax once slime highlights the function. 00:08:44 *stassats`* knows where is the error before he hits C-c C-c 00:09:32 *Adlai* only gets offending syntax from other peoples' code and thus doesn't know where the error is ahead of time. 00:09:53 this works at least in 1.0.23.12 sbcl 00:10:20 ah, ok. I'm in the clear, should I ever need this. 00:11:26 hmm, ccl should be able to do this too 00:12:09 I guess I just haven't written enough complicated macros yet. 00:13:12 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:13:42 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:52 i should look into it, because reader errors in ccl are annoying 00:15:15 anyone did GUI dialog based upon restarts? 00:15:43 too bad restarts like USE-VALUE read from *query-io* and not from a source like a popup 00:15:55 it's hard to make a gray stream popup from *query-io* 00:16:12 since one doesn't know when consumer reads everything it needs 00:16:20 bind *query-io* to something else? 00:16:26 see above 00:17:21 why hard with gray streams? 00:17:29 because 00:17:30 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:31 when something reads 00:17:37 it may read in multiple chunks 00:17:46 and then it would appear as two popups 00:18:04 besides, holding arbitrary locks in gray-streams is tricky 00:18:10 not long ago it broke the repl 00:19:33 frito [n=user@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 00:21:58 i can't find the comma thing in changelog 00:22:36 stassats`: comma thing works in CCL. 00:23:00 Adlai: huh? it highlights? 00:23:09 doesn't highlight, but reports it in the error message. 00:23:12 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:23:28 ie, it gave the s-exp where it happened. 00:23:44 and a buffer position. Could use improvement, of course. 00:24:13 i'm looking at it right now 00:24:22 oh, I see, SBCL actually highlights. That's neat. 00:25:12 weirdo2: so, you should thank slime too 00:25:24 tcr isn't here, i can't thank him 00:25:25 :( 00:25:37 CCL reports the exact position, though. Does that mean that this is a SLIME issue? 00:25:49 Adlai: yes 00:26:03 *Adlai* goes back to loving both of his implementations equally. 00:29:20 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-coakviubogosyuhz] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:29:53 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-12-53.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:35:38 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:36:06 it would be nice having multiple separate message-passing "conversations" 00:36:17 so that messages from multiple conversations don't get mixed up 00:36:29 weirdo2: use multiple queues then. 00:36:36 good idea 00:37:11 -!- masm [n=masm@bl5-107-227.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:40:33 -!- antgreen [n=Anthony@CPE0013f7bcd3c0-CM0013f7bcd3bc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:05 scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-76-151.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:57 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F226.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:47:00 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-15-210.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:52:08 pkhuong: what's a quick way to compute a loop nesting depth estimate for each basic block? 00:52:16 pkhuong: doesn't have to be totally accurate 00:54:12 i have a weird idea for a MOO, wanna hear? 00:55:56 no 00:55:58 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 00:56:44 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:52 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.219.182] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 00:59:37 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.248] has joined #lisp 01:05:49 slava: no idea. 01:05:55 *p_l* is intrigued by the concept of using MOO as educational virtual reality 01:06:58 educational? 01:08:21 daniel: LinguaMOO is an educational MOO dedicated to general studies of arts and humanities, created in 1995 (...) 01:08:50 Moo... 01:09:03 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:09:06 pkhuong: does sbcl use loop nesting to weigh register allocation decisions? 01:10:00 yup. 01:10:35 daniel: there's also "schMOOze University" and there was once BioMOO, and there was(is?) MediaMOO used by professional media researchers 01:10:57 deeply nested variables are allocated first. It's also used in representation selection to weigh the costs of moving between representations 01:12:35 the code for doing that is in src/compiler/loop.lisp 01:13:26 -!- trsh [n=chat@93-141-44-239.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [] 01:13:41 not sure if you meant quick to implement or quick to run, but if the latter, IIRC that step takes a fraction of a percent of the compilation time on the whole 01:13:49 if i bind the same thing twice but never change it, does it allocate a separate register? 01:14:04 because once i had 2 variables holding the same thing and code ran slower 01:18:18 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:19:21 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 01:20:22 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:30 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:21:00 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:16 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:26:32 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has joined #lisp 01:28:00 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 01:28:28 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 01:30:18 -!- hrk [n=hrk@acurwa002148.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Riece/5.0.0 Emacs/22.3 (darwin)"] 01:35:05 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.206.126] has quit [] 01:35:45 -!- asksol [n=ask@084202073154.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:36:53 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:37:26 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.206.126] has joined #lisp 01:38:11 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.248] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:38:41 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.206.126] has quit [Client Quit] 01:41:28 Tordek [n=tordek@host185.190-137-186.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 01:45:53 -!- erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:46:32 erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 01:47:44 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:47:47 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:19 -!- Adlai is now known as Adlai-AWAY 01:54:07 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-28-120.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:54:26 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-28-120.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:56:06 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:13 did i forget something about clos recently? 02:01:17 check this out 02:01:53 weirdo pasted "strange error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85023 02:02:18 that should be «:initarg :name» 02:02:25 heh 02:02:27 thank you 02:09:55 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-29-224.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:10:12 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-245.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:11:39 logBot1761 [n=logBot@59.92.133.165] has joined #lisp 02:17:00 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:25:00 -!- Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit ["Dinner time"] 02:30:34 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:31:39 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has left #lisp 02:33:52 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:34:36 -!- logBot1761 [n=logBot@59.92.133.165] has quit [Success] 02:34:37 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-224.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:36:24 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-224.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 02:36:27 So I'm writing an AI for a board game for fun, and I have the board being represented by a class. In several methods, the state of the board needs to be set, and the methods which will be used are obviously flipped for each player. What's the best way to do this? Passing in the function doesn't work, since (setf (funcall foo) ) is only defined if foo is of the form #'fun 02:36:48 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:37:08 I was looking at http://cooking-with-lisp.blogspot.com/2006/02/how-to-call-setf-method-directly.html but I can't seem to replicate it 02:38:15 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:38:27 Any help? 02:38:39 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:39:03 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:11 Lycurgus [n=Ren@pool-71-186-170-81.bflony.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:09 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:47:24 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 02:48:17 -!- rares [n=dihymo@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:48:21 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:09 -!- imperian [i=imperian@41.174.64.65] has quit [] 02:50:17 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-76-151.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:50:36 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:00 elliotstern: perhaps you'd like to (funcall #'(setf foo) new-value ...) 02:55:35 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.40.35] has joined #lisp 02:57:52 thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:07 lispbot url 02:59:09 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:02:01 Could anyone give me a little feedback on this question? http://paste.lisp.org/display/85026 03:03:32 I have been trying to come up with improve webscripting tools and hit upon this as a better way to construct if/then 03:04:15 er... to construct complex if/then statements 03:07:00 you could spend your time in more constructive endeavors 03:07:52 Basicically the idea is to state all the true paths in a group and all false paths in another. The idea being it tends to group things like failure handling so you can state the true paths. seems a lot clearer in some situtations 03:08:11 did you look at it? 03:08:24 yes. it's horrendously unreadable 03:09:19 ah... In our opinion 03:09:35 er... hit return instead of bs 03:10:32 ah... in your opinion, anything useful or salvageable about the idea? I actually find grouping stuff like that helps *in some cases* 03:10:44 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Success] 03:10:56 however, if your cognitive abilities are such that you can understand a construct like that, go for it 03:11:30 I'd have an initial COND that checked all error conditions 03:11:56 error conditions? 03:12:21 so you've never seen such a macro as I describe then? 03:13:01 -!- weirdo2 [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:13:02 no 03:13:25 weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 03:14:58 Hmmm, I recall the #lisp channel being much busier than this 03:15:11 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:15:33 it's 5am in europe 03:15:52 western europe 03:16:21 272-3 lurkers... 03:17:06 did you look at my paste weirdo? 03:17:24 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:30 no, i restarted emacs 03:17:33 msg me the paste, please 03:17:44 http://paste.lisp.org/display/85026 03:18:18 what is that? 03:18:38 A different way of experssing an if/then tree 03:19:04 iftrue ifnil looks like smalltalk 03:19:05 imagine the macro??? turn the below into the above 03:19:17 thos are just place holders 03:19:18 thom_: I don't see why you would want to write your "MACRO???" 03:19:30 iftrue and ifnil should be your macros 03:19:36 they called me CRAZY! 03:19:44 ;) 03:19:51 how so? 03:20:10 it probably doesn't already exist for CL, but i don't find this macro particularly useful 03:20:14 BTW, I'd call them if-any or if-none 03:20:17 they would need to talk to each other which I'm not sure how one would do that 03:20:33 why would they need to communicate? 03:20:51 not in the use case of your paste 03:21:00 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:13 oh, I see your point, you'd like the ifnil clauses to be considered only if the iftrue ones were false 03:22:16 OK 03:22:20 (if-any ...) (if-all ...) something needs to stitch the two resulting leaves together... that's what I meant by communicate. one would have to enclose the other lexically... 03:22:54 See? Once you kind of get used to it suddenly it's like... maybe this would be useful sometimes 03:23:06 I don't see when, still ;-) 03:24:23 Each of the expressions in the if-all (I like the name) clause is tried in turn until the whole thing works or fails 03:26:06 If you read it outloud it almost reads like how you'd explain it to some one... if the url is valid and the second url is valid... and then list the failure cases seperately 03:27:03 http://paste.lisp.org/display/85026#1 03:27:19 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:27:41 Thanks! 03:28:01 well, I would explain it the way the IF expressions are nested, but maybe that's because I've seen those for too long a time... 03:28:25 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.40.35] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:28:34 writing if-any and if-none should be trivial 03:29:16 hmmm, could you express my example in your syntax, not quite sure I follow 03:30:31 not sure how your construct would express the failure cases 03:30:49 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@pool-71-186-170-81.bflony.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:32:07 -!- frito [n=user@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:32:50 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:32:52 minint [n=minint@ppp85-141-153-94.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 03:32:56 http://paste.lisp.org/display/85026#2 03:33:49 ah, much clearer, thank you 03:35:58 -!- minint [n=minint@ppp85-141-153-94.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 03:36:21 nowhere_man: that's basically cond 03:36:29 yep 03:36:38 LOL 03:37:05 Hmmm, not quite cond I think 03:37:24 there's a big difference but it sure looks a lot like it 03:37:56 that I can agree 03:38:17 I doubt if-any/if-none would be really useful macros, but I find it incredibly nice that they are possible to write in CL 03:38:29 and easily 03:39:20 yes, very much so 03:40:55 sometimes in slime autodoc at the bottom of the screen isn't colored 03:41:26 myslime is monochrome 03:41:59 hmmm, "if-none" isn't quite right 03:43:39 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:45:15 kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:31 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:49:23 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 03:51:39 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:25 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:54:35 leifw [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:16 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:30 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host185.190-137-186.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:08:21 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:16:36 i'm so stupid 04:16:49 i was searching for a bug and it was because i returned the wrong thing 04:18:21 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:18:22 try returning the right thing 04:18:38 ha ha very funny 04:18:52 return left, return left! 04:18:53 ... 04:18:55 ... oh nm. 04:20:36 Hmmm, I'm still liking my crazy idea... 04:20:52 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:20:58 vas iz zis craaaaayzee ideya? 04:21:19 http://paste.lisp.org/display/85026 04:21:25 you be the judge 04:21:42 *here comes da judge! here come da judge!* 04:22:04 *zip* 04:22:09 ? 04:22:10 that was the sound of that link flying over my head 04:22:14 <-- just a noob :) 04:22:19 i can read it but i can't judget 04:22:21 ehe :) 04:22:44 Ah, basically just a different way to express an if-then tree 04:22:56 that seems logical to me 04:23:35 so read my example line by line to yourself and tell me if you think you understand what the code might do 04:24:00 noob thoughts are useful too :) 04:25:44 weirdo pasted "why does it print and return different things?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85028 04:25:57 the line (arg-url form-url secret-file-url SAVE-FILE) says if all the variables are true, then save file 04:25:57 my guess is that a web application submitting a request for a file, if it takes too long to find error out 04:26:16 it prints stuff like "4 3 1" but doesn't return it 04:26:21 i mean things where are no spaces 04:26:28 where there are spaces 04:26:32 like "2" is missing 04:26:40 but in the return value these entries are omitted; why? 04:27:10 what does declaring depth special do? 04:27:24 it's previous debugging code 04:27:33 i used to indent debugging messages basing on stack depth 04:28:00 thom: I assume the second form (using macro???) is a reimplementation of the first form? 04:28:09 yes 04:28:12 I don't see what's so bad about the first form. 04:28:45 is there a portable way to figure out how many args a function accepts? 04:28:53 sykopomp, no, but see swank 04:28:54 The error handling starts spreading out far away from the source if the first style 04:29:05 could someone please look at my paste? this is driving me crazy 04:29:18 source in the first style 04:30:07 I looked, but it went over my head :( 04:30:18 thanks 04:31:04 hmm, now it works 04:31:09 it's voodoo 04:31:40 congratulations. You must be returning the right thing now 04:31:40 thom: why not just do the error checking first. 04:32:06 *weirdo* goes looking for sexp-diff 04:32:33 Ah, never mind. I'm to tired to make sense of that. Anyway, I've never seen a macro like what you want. What you want, may or may not be insane. 04:32:52 My gut would be that maybe you have a more application specific macro you're looking to write, rather than something general purpose. 04:32:59 But I'm--as I say--very tired. 04:33:17 You're the author of the book, I assume? :) 04:33:33 1.99 books at this point. 04:33:45 different book or new edition? 04:34:16 New book. http://www.codersatwork.com/ 04:34:30 not lisp specific? 04:34:37 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:46 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:34:46 -!- xenosoz [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:34:46 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:34:46 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:34:46 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-141.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:34:46 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:34:46 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:34:46 -!- nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:34:46 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:34:46 -!- gonzojive1 [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:34:46 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:34:46 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:34:46 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-148-132-231.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:34:46 -!- azanar` [n=azanar@dsl231-050-107.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:34:46 -!- Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:34:46 -!- ment [i=thement@ibawizard.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:34:46 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:34:48 ment_ [i=thement@ibawizard.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:49 Aisling_ [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 04:34:50 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:55 ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-148-132-231.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:56 nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 04:34:58 azanar [n=azanar@dsl231-050-107.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:58 nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:07 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:11 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:35:11 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-141.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 04:35:14 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 04:35:27 gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 04:35:31 xenosoz [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has joined #lisp 04:35:46 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 04:35:49 Nope. 04:35:54 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:36:36 And with that I'd like wish everyone a good night and encourage you all to buy many copies of Coders at Work. ;-) 04:36:39 You couldn't do all the error checking at the start in my example, btw 04:36:46 night 04:39:35 bye 04:39:50 I'm still here 04:40:09 gigamonkey: hi! almost finished russian translation of PCL: http://pcl.catap.ru/ 04:41:04 npoektop: Cool! 04:41:10 *gigamonkey* is not quite in bed yet. 04:42:27 there are many participants. i think all of them would like to say thank you 04:42:46 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:47 for a great book 04:44:01 nichevo. spacebo a tebya 04:44:14 *gigamonkey* can't remember that form of the plural you. 04:44:25 tebye 04:44:51 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:45:02 *p_l* should sit down and learn russian one of these days 04:45:37 Ha, I just discovered you can express loops in my crazy syntax... um, I think 04:47:44 i don't see why people read programming books in non-english 04:48:03 to each his own 04:48:08 they have to know english anyway to read manuals, communicate with other programmers, additionally symbol names are in english 04:48:19 probably easier for beginners 04:48:46 do you know a second language? 04:49:20 -!- leifw [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:50:07 this is insane. i'm putting something in a list by PUSH, but when the function exits returning this list it look different 04:50:10 you'd probably have difficulty following a technical discussion that wasn't in your native tongue 04:50:12 and happens the same in clisp 04:50:24 thom_, yes, english is my second language 04:51:12 well, for someone starting out learning english who was alos interesting in programming might have trouble :) 04:51:23 -!- xenosoz [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:51:32 isn't push destructive? 04:51:35 *sykopomp* thinks alexandria should be split off into many smaller packages :| 04:52:10 xenosoz [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has joined #lisp 04:53:20 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E470A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:30 thom_, RESULT is but a variable, it merely gets SETQ'd 04:53:33 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:09 weirdo: you aren't SORT'ing it anywhere in there are you? 04:54:48 dunno... maybe a cons cel allocated by a literal '(1 2 3 something) is getting changed? That is supposed to cause all sorts of headaches 04:55:08 gigamonkey, no 04:55:31 weirdo: because they need stepping stone sometimes, and sometimes you might have good enough grasp of language to read technical manuals but have problems with "books" 04:55:34 ? 04:56:07 thom_, it's the same with LIST 04:56:11 What's the status on osicat? Working? 04:56:17 there are no destructive operations in there 04:59:45 _thot [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 05:00:54 but can you verify by running the code on your machine with args '(1 2 3 4)? i suspect something is horribly wrong with my machine 05:01:27 can I just copy paste your example? 05:02:05 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:12 into the repl, yes 05:02:27 oh, and remove-duplicates is redundant 05:02:32 it doesn't contain any duplicates 05:02:37 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:03:05 do you want all the warnings it prints or just the result? 05:03:19 result, see if sequences are continuous 05:03:27 for instance, is there "1 4" in there or "1 2" 05:03:28 ugh 05:03:30 "1 3" 05:03:46 or only stuff like 1 2 3, 2 3, 1 2 05:03:54 does this count as success? ((1 2 3 4) (2 3 4) (3 4) (4) NIL) 05:04:00 no :| 05:04:16 really? 05:04:35 those all seem contig to me 05:05:08 i want the ones that aren't continuous 05:05:11 and look now 05:05:23 lok now? 05:05:27 look? 05:05:28 change (cons tail ..) to (cons (car tail) ...) 05:05:40 and all cases like (mapcar #'car result) to result 05:05:43 then it will work 05:05:47 but why, oh why? 05:05:55 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:12 I am not knowing 05:07:12 looks like (mapcar #'car result) botches it up 05:07:13 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:07:27 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:09:54 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.91.95] has joined #lisp 05:10:14 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46EEC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:10:24 haha i'm so stupid 05:10:46 i should do (mapcar (lambda (x) (mapcar #'car x)) result) 05:11:01 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:29 thank you for your cooperation 05:14:45 g'day lisp 05:14:57 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:17:18 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:36 what kinds of versioning schemes do people use? 05:24:39 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:24:52 aside from the whole "latest commit pushed ftw" strategy... 05:25:28 At the few times I have used versions I have had set goals for each version #. 05:25:43 I don't think I ever got past 0.7 05:25:43 Sorry, I'm talking more format-wise. 05:25:49 oh 05:25:53 what kind of format scheme would make people happy? 05:25:57 format scheme? 05:26:01 err 05:26:05 version format* 05:26:18 *schme* has no idea what all this is. 05:28:03 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:28:15 weirdo annotated #85028 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85028#1 05:28:33 debugging sure is... stimulating 05:29:05 weirdo: got an extra "instead" in there 05:29:16 :) 05:29:22 well, i can't edit pastes nor annotations 05:30:39 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-135-193.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:30:45 Good morning. 05:31:27 mornin' beach. 05:33:35 Strav [n=user@dsl-62-121.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 05:33:45 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 05:34:25 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:17 morning 05:36:46 he. I'm having some trouble with single stepping in slime/sbcl. For instance, if I enter: (step (myFunc args)), I get into the stepper although trying to step into the evaluation just passes through it unless there's a break inserted. Anything I'm doing wrong? 05:37:34 hello nowhere_man 05:37:47 Strav: Did you compile with high debug settings? 05:39:10 argh! 05:39:22 I guess this only works with compiled code. 05:39:52 (I was using the interpreter) 05:40:08 let me test with the compiled version. 05:41:12 Don't forget (debug 3) 05:45:28 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 05:46:31 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Client Quit] 05:50:01 -!- xenosoz [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:50:05 thanks! (declaim) with debug 3 did the trick. I'll see to configure slime with that setting by default. 05:50:24 I put that in my .sbclrc 05:50:52 xenosoz [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has joined #lisp 05:54:38 a matter of taste perhaps. (If that setting is common to other lisp backends, slime might be a good place to pass the invocation arg) 05:58:19 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-108-120.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 06:02:00 -!- _thot [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has left #lisp 06:06:50 -!- Strav [n=user@dsl-62-121.aei.ca] has left #lisp 06:12:43 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:15:46 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.206.126] has joined #lisp 06:19:33 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 06:19:56 hello 06:20:43 Adlai-AW` [n=adlai@93-172-60-194.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 06:30:15 tag [n=chatzill@p3m/member/tag] has joined #lisp 06:33:34 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1B4A.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:33:58 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:34:53 know of any CL parser generators that both 1) expose syntax tree as a first-class object 2) don't require lexing? 06:37:20 -!- Adlai-AWAY [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:44:06 Tordek [n=tordek@host185.190-137-186.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 06:46:26 -!- ment_ is now known as ment 06:47:16 daniel__ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:51:54 basmi [n=d@c-69-253-18-248.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:24 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:57:08 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 07:02:09 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:02:51 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:03:13 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:06:33 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-112-40.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:06:51 why do people say that using ONCE-ONLY is ugly/bad? 07:07:25 Who says that? 07:07:34 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:07:44 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.206.126] has quit [] 07:08:46 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:10:03 schme, i don't know exactly who, but more than one person said that 07:10:23 that's because i got tired of typing (let ... `(let ... ...)) constantly 07:10:47 so i made a macro like ONCE-ONLY, except that it also accepts bindings like (name expr) and not only name 07:13:47 if I have something like (symbol-macrolet (a foo) (my-macro a)) does my macro see 'a' or 'foo' at expansion time? 07:14:49 (apologies if I mangled sym-maclet's syntax) 07:15:38 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-159-222.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:16:31 weirdo: people say a lot of silly things 07:16:57 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:17:09 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 07:18:57 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:19:10 thank you 07:20:36 thom_, macros see raw forms 07:22:31 so they see the original a then in this case? 07:22:31 macros don't see anything expanded unless they expand it itselves 07:22:36 yes 07:22:42 interesting 07:22:52 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:16 I guess I still don't grok the details of macro expand... I'm glad it works that way tho :) 07:23:23 the expanded macro would still, of course, be effected. 07:23:33 sykopomp pasted "brainstorming -- ideas?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85035 07:23:37 thom_, you don't need to know that 07:23:45 Ralith: o/ 07:23:49 sykopomp: \o 07:23:50 sup 07:23:56 thom_, when you accept a value that's evaluated, you don't generally mangle it 07:24:03 except perhaps seeing if it's a constant 07:24:08 Ralith: not much. 07:24:12 unless you're using a code walker, that is 07:24:36 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:24:46 so many newbies visit us. perhaps lisp is not dying, but you knew that already 07:25:08 I'm under the impression that lisp is, if anything, growing. 07:25:12 I don't think I am. "tree walker" is a term that i've tried to read about but everything I've read leaves me fuzzy on it 07:25:25 Ralith: speaking of growth, you know what's great for growth? 07:25:33 Ralith: non-shitty library distribution! :D 07:25:38 committees? 07:25:38 BELIEVE 07:25:47 sykopomp: yep! 07:25:52 aren't there like three different people trying to do that? 07:25:56 Ralith: ^^^ check the paste. Give me ideas. 07:25:59 o 07:26:00 *Ralith* clicks 07:26:18 I read that article on using gpg with asdf-install and got depressed 07:26:24 (I guess that makes that four now) 07:27:04 sykopomp: okay, observations: 07:27:12 store version numbers as a string. 07:27:17 Ralith: don't count me in yet, I'm brainstorming. 07:27:25 Ralith, any thoughts on this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/85026 07:27:29 storiing version numbers as a string is a PITA 07:27:29 they vary too widely in formatting to be able to use a lisp expression 07:27:38 it's better to say versions are sequences of 3 numbers. 07:27:42 makes it easier to sort. 07:27:45 but that doesn't always work. 07:27:50 better to explicitly specify relationships. 07:27:58 no thanks 07:28:00 simplicity 07:28:16 version numbers will work wonderfully, and if you want to ignore them, you can always subclass... 07:28:20 but you can't map all version numbers into three integers 07:28:27 probably not even most 07:28:29 Ralith: then you better learn how. 07:28:29 sykopomp: what about storing an arbitrary-length vector of numbers and have a standard algorithm for comparison? 07:28:41 sykopomp: ooh, better idea! 07:28:43 sykopomp: release dates. 07:28:49 p_l: that's not a bad idea. 07:28:54 standard format, can be lispy, inherently linear, works on everything 07:29:11 Ralith: I think it's better to push people to slap version numbers on their stuff. 07:29:11 sykopomp: Are you making it so one can depend on specific versions of .. stuff ? 07:29:12 so, for example, date-based version numbers would be stored into one number, while x.y.z => '(x y z) 07:29:13 version numbers can still be stored for UI purposes, but release dates used for determining what is latest. 07:29:19 and make it easy for people to find the version they want. 07:29:22 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:29:26 sykopomp: yes, that's the UI thing. 07:29:34 but again 07:29:35 I don't want to search modules by date. 07:29:39 you don't :P 07:29:39 I want nice, simple numbers. 07:29:42 you search by number 07:29:43 but 07:29:43 bigger is better! 07:29:58 schme: yes. 07:29:58 if someone wants a library whose versions are delimited by the letters of the alphabet 07:30:02 how do they search? 07:30:04 sykopomp: Excellent (: 07:30:18 schme: "I" am not making anything, though. This is a text file. :\ 07:30:37 or what about one represented by *four* different integers? 07:30:48 if you have a minute I'm still trying to get additional feedback on this http://paste.lisp.org/display/85026 07:30:57 no, you'll have to do versions as strings and use dates to sort out which is latest. 07:31:15 Ralith: 1. map 'list char-code *version* 2. ??? 3. Profit! 07:31:24 sykopomp: that's user-hostile. 07:31:37 Ralith: stupid versioning systems are hostile to me. 07:31:48 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.248] has joined #lisp 07:31:49 so? :P 07:32:01 (defclass standard-version ...) (defgeneric version< ...) etc. ? :P 07:32:03 the idea is to be friendly to everyone 07:32:04 thom_: take a look at cond. 07:32:08 ooh 07:32:10 I like p_l's idea 07:32:26 overengineered, of course, but awesome anyway 07:32:32 Ralith: the idea is that it should be easy to grab versions from the repo. 07:32:42 sykopomp: yes, that's what the string based version numbering is for. 07:32:44 Well, this is CL - "No feature left behind" 07:32:46 it's easy to compare strings. 07:32:51 easy to search for substrings, etc 07:32:55 p_l: keep in mind that all this stuff goes up to a server. 07:33:10 if the user wants version X, they search for version X, and they get it 07:33:20 but if they want the latest version, that's determined based on release dates 07:33:44 Ralith: I want you to give me a reasonable non-moronic example of why I would ever want a version numbering system that doesn't involve numbers. 07:33:45 p_l's idea might not perform as well but it'd be much more elegant. 07:33:55 sykopomp: it's not a question of why *you* would want it. 07:33:58 or that can't be abstracted into numbers from the getgo. 07:34:06 it's a question of whether your users might want to install packages that do it :P 07:34:12 5.0-rc1 07:34:13 asksol [n=ask@122.242.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 07:34:15 there's a good reason. 07:34:26 schme: 5.0.1 07:34:33 sykopomp: okay, then how do you represent 5.0.1? 07:34:40 '(5 0 1) 07:34:41 :) 07:34:48 no 07:34:49 you misunderstood 07:34:52 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 07:34:54 5.0-rc1 07:34:56 5.0-rc2 07:34:56 Isn't 5.0-rc1 "pre 5.0" anyway? 07:34:59 5.0-final 07:35:01 5.0 07:35:04 5.0.1 07:35:07 yeah. 07:35:09 OH SHIT CONFLICT 07:35:14 *schme* waits for 4.99.98 :P 07:35:18 oh that 07:35:18 yes 07:35:25 don't do RCs 07:35:29 :P 07:35:34 not valid. 07:35:39 perfectly valid 07:35:43 you can't force everything into your model like that 07:35:44 doesn't work 07:35:47 It does work for cabal. 07:35:50 (not doing rc) 07:35:55 5.0-rc1 -> '(4 9 999) 07:35:59 well cabal's Doing It Wrong 07:36:00 worksforme 07:36:01 sykopomp: and rc2? 07:36:02 Next 07:36:13 Ralith: wrong, and quite well used and works very nice (: 07:36:24 schme: until you want to install an rc! 07:36:27 Ralith: '(4 9 1000) ofc 07:36:40 I want something that works. I'm not looking for the ultimate forever design. 07:36:41 sykopomp: then users will get confused between that and 4.9.1 07:36:49 "something that works" is strings. 07:36:49 Ralith: I guess the haskell community has decided there is no such thing (: 07:37:00 Ralith: then the users need to learn basic math. 07:37:07 sykopomp: user-hostile is a bad approach :P 07:37:15 that's not hostile 07:37:18 that's reasonable 07:37:21 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:37:22 "do it my way because your way is dumb" is hostile 07:37:34 changing version numbers to confusing new representations is hostile 07:37:42 they give me non-retarded sequences of numbers, I give them a very nicely packaged, easy to use, and obvious library distribution system. 07:38:04 it's straightforward. If you want to label it as 5.0-rc1, put that in the .asd 07:38:13 the string/date based system is much, much easier to use. 07:38:26 I somehow doubt this. 07:38:33 that way the user can search for "foo version 5.0-rc1" and get results 07:38:33 I like v# 07:38:42 and even if it were, it sounds like it's much more complicated to implement effectively :) 07:38:45 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:38:46 Not very lispy though? ;) 07:38:46 if the user can't do that, then it's broken :P 07:38:55 er, no, it'd be very easy to implement O.o 07:39:05 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 07:39:07 just a simple string comparison, like you're already doing for names 07:39:08 I would rather get it up and running asap, fyi 07:39:10 anyways, let's move on 07:39:20 the specifics of versioning systems are of little interest to me 07:39:34 right, then don't use a broken model and we'll be done with it :] 07:39:51 okay let's see 07:39:52 the big point is "Here there be versions", some versions are more recent, some are older, and there's a common interface. 07:40:03 p_l's approach would be best for that. 07:40:08 details 07:40:10 loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has joined #lisp 07:40:12 and appropriately lispy, too 07:40:13 we're in the big picture here 07:40:15 anyway, moving on 07:40:17 think big picture 07:40:42 it needs to support installing system-wide 07:40:51 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-159-222.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:40:51 I'm curious to how adding repos will work. Something like pacman where you list 'em all in a file? 07:41:14 schme: think asdf:*central-registry* 07:41:24 oh yeah. right. 07:41:34 is all good. 07:41:41 sykopomp: the .asd seems to be redundant 07:41:53 Ralith: it's not. 07:42:05 make sure there's a (clad:list-packages ..) or something :) 07:42:06 this doesn't worry about the specifics of loading systems. 07:42:06 thom_, for code walker info, see http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-walker/ 07:42:11 leave that to xcvb and asdf 07:42:14 or even raw loading 07:42:23 sykopomp: and yet the .asd lists redundant information. 07:42:24 :P 07:42:31 this is worried specifically about packaging them up and tossing them on a server. 07:42:32 thom_, don't use asdf-install, use clbuild 07:43:05 Ralith: that's a sort of good point. I'll think about that, but the .clad should definitely have that info, for the server's use. 07:43:37 and it's better to make sure the clad definition has all that info than teaching clad how to mine it manually for each new thing it knows how to build/load 07:43:44 sykopomp: indeed; the problem here is probably mostly that ASDF does more than handle loading. 07:44:14 the .clad interface is very specific about what it does. 07:44:28 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:44:35 as long as asdf or xcvb or whatever have ways to do that, you're golden. 07:44:42 asdf systems depend on other asdf systems 07:44:51 but a clad definition can be a clump of asdf systems. 07:44:52 -!- basmi [n=d@c-69-253-18-248.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:44:57 it's basically the tarballed directory 07:45:04 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 07:45:30 so asd-files is provided by a clad extension? 07:45:36 (in the defclad) 07:45:59 I never heard of clbuild before. is it new? 07:46:05 it needs to know about the .asd files because it will symlink them to the appropriate central asdf registry you have. 07:46:06 also 07:46:15 thom_, it is 07:46:17 sykopomp: yes, but if you want to support non-asd things, it all needs to be abstracted. 07:46:23 no asd-specific internal code. 07:46:25 it is 07:46:31 so your answer would be "yes" 07:46:33 :P 07:46:46 also 07:46:56 your ion cannon should be in *high* orbit 07:47:04 cheaper to aim, and harder for other people to shoot it down 07:47:09 not to mention less prone to orbital degredation. 07:47:13 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-246-37.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Success] 07:47:29 see (defmethod clad:setup ((app asdf-clad)) ... yo dawg, I symlinked your .asds) 07:47:50 setup is run once the tarball is extracted. 07:50:05 Ralith: what I think would be very nice is the scaffolding stuff 07:50:12 ? 07:50:19 and the auto-packaging of existing CL libraries. 07:50:34 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:50:41 and the fact that you don't have to deal with fsking GPG just to grab a lib. 07:51:48 I suppose the redundancy wrt. asdf is a necessary evil 07:51:54 yes 07:52:02 because asdf is the one overstepping its bounds there, not clad 07:52:18 asdf wouldn't be overstepping its bounds if it did this already -.- 07:52:23 asdf should be just about building and file-dependencies? 07:52:33 guaqua: either that, or do the other stuff *well* 07:52:39 ack 07:52:43 i agree 07:53:10 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 07:53:12 well, there's things that are very hard to do that asdf-style file loading just won't quite manage. 07:53:22 perl and ruby have a holistic way of doing this, only one system i guess 07:53:27 ask fare why he can't just write xcvb on top of asdf :) 07:53:32 python's implementation is a mix 07:53:34 sykopomp: incidentally, an AUR-style comments system with recent comments displayed before install would be nice. 07:53:47 any cl.net admins around? to compile a 2.3.0 darcs i need: Cannot find Storage.Hashed; try installing the Haskell package hashed-storage? 07:53:50 Ralith: sure, why not? 07:54:02 never seen it anywhere else but it's been a boon for debugging things for me 07:54:26 and it's a great way for users to find out important stuff like "this is unmaintained" 07:54:29 Ralith: sometimes I wonder if the 'freedom' with file loading is really worth it :\ 07:54:33 ? 07:54:50 but maybe it'll be alright with better tools :) 07:55:27 there should also be a well-maintained central repository 07:55:51 which, i think, has been the main problem with asdf. it's just scattered and seems non-cohesive 07:55:55 guaqua: did you read the paste? 07:56:12 sykopomp: what're you talking about? 07:56:32 if i get a nickel each time i sea what package-management should be 07:56:40 s/sea/see/ 07:56:46 sykopomp: yep. looks nice. my point was more on the lines of a browser-browsable web application that actually showed the libraries and you could annotate them. much in the way of AUR, i guess 07:57:01 I'm thinking a CPAN-like approach is probably best: Require users to register once, then give them (relatively) free reign over uploading stuff, and make them responsible for their uploads, and all that. This includes the web interface for searching and all that. 07:57:17 you can have multiple repositories, and stuff 07:57:34 sykopomp: one other thing I've always thought package managers need: tag-based organization and searching. 07:57:51 not category based. 07:58:22 sure! Tags! Why not! 07:58:27 let's have a tag cloud :D 07:58:38 much better than bogo-hierarchies, imo. 07:59:14 rigidly categorized packages just gets plain silly 07:59:53 see: ports, where there are things like 'java' and 'spanish' apparently chosen at random to be category-worthy 08:00:11 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 08:00:17 teehee 08:00:36 and where any given package could reasonably be in at least three different places 08:00:43 but was, again randomly, placed in only one. 08:01:59 tags added to readme. I like that. 08:02:05 s/readme/notes 08:02:21 / 08:02:27 :| 08:02:31 :] 08:03:28 anyways. I assume your silence about it means the clad init stuff is super-sweet. 08:03:40 init stuff? 08:03:45 oh 08:03:53 yeah that seems decent 08:04:02 sykopomp: why not do it like gems, give users a way to easily setup their own repos and tools to manage them, plus maybe some "discovery" stuff to allow automatic linking between repos 08:04:28 p_l: Trust issues? :3 08:04:51 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.59.236] has joined #lisp 08:05:00 and CPAN seems like a better example than gems, overall. 08:05:15 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:05:27 How about maven (which has more or less the same model as gems) 08:06:29 tag: if it has more or less the same model, wouldn't the same CPAN vs gems argument apply? 08:06:55 how about instead of "why not", you say "gems is better because CPAN can't..." 08:07:47 make you a sandwich! 08:07:51 Just because it's another, very broadly adopted, example. In saying "CPAN seems like a better example...". 08:08:09 I left my Keene book in the U.S. and I would appreciate it if someone has that little paragraph on the difference between adding :around and (or :after :before) methods. I know for :around methods I need to return from the object itself, and for :before/:after methods I need to call next method, if next-method-p. Or was it the other way around? 08:08:23 not that I don't love CPAN. I just do think that organizations like the one I work at find benefit in having a distributed repository structure for packages. 08:09:02 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:09:10 Being able to distribute our own packages internally, and defer to central and official repositories for more general libraries, is an incredibly useful feature. 08:09:28 fusss: you need to call-next-method inside :around, :before, and :after are simply stacks of side-effects run before and after the primary method runs. 08:09:56 tag: setting up your own repo is fully supported by any half-decent package manager. 08:09:58 tag: you can add custom repositories with this system, too. 08:10:22 tag: it just really emphasises having the availability of a relatively secure central one. 08:10:38 sykopomp: yes, :around methods *replace* the effective primary methods while :before and :after are just for side effects. So the return value of an :after method is unimportant? 08:10:56 stupid question; the result of the generic function is the result of the effective primary method 08:10:58 fusss: correct 08:11:15 *fusss* think he knew more Lisp 5+ years ago 08:12:25 *sykopomp* implemented this stuff himself, and still needs to think a bit about it. 08:13:52 pkhuong: so I implemented float unboxing using a global representation cost heuristic, but there's a complication 08:14:05 Ogedei [n=user@e178215038.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:14:10 sykopomp: you're learning fast my man 08:14:43 dizpater [n=dizpater@173-117-120-37.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:03 fusss: just so you know, you'llget the :around's return value if the call to c-n-m is not the last form. 08:15:12 -!- dizpater [n=dizpater@173-117-120-37.pools.spcsdns.net] has left #lisp 08:15:25 pkhuong: if a value is used in two different control flow paths, unboxed in one, and the heuristic decides to unbox it globally, the result might not be valid if its assumed to be a fixnum in the other branch 08:15:57 fusss: I don't know jack :( 08:16:04 c-n-m: is last form, protected by n-m-p. i have no interest in discovering new corners of clos at this time ;-) 08:16:35 fusss: this is pretty basic method combination, and it's pretty straightforward: around wraps the primary method. 08:16:52 think of c-n-m as inlining the primary method in a different body. 08:17:16 sykopomp: excellent analogy there 08:17:23 (defmethod foo :around (bar) 1 (call-next-method) 2) will always return 2, for example. 08:17:35 regardless of what the most-specific primary method is. 08:18:33 :before and :after are meant more (imo) for side-effects and the like, :around for more functional wrapping, since it gives you access to the primary method. 08:19:22 :before is like executing forms before a (c-n-m), and :after is like doing (m-v-prog1 (c-n-m) (call-after)) 08:23:26 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has joined #lisp 08:24:25 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:27:17 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:27:39 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:27:40 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 08:28:19 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.40.35] has joined #lisp 08:29:17 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 08:30:28 guaqua: I've been looking at rubygems. 08:30:39 looks pretty nice 08:31:21 I'm also sort of wondering how a system like this could be easily integrated with native package managers... 08:32:11 that would be too tricky, though <_9 08:32:59 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:41:13 sykopomp: also not our problem. 08:41:35 yeah 08:42:05 benny [n=benny@i577A019E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:44:56 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:48:12 Coffee000 [n=coffee@gl17-045.gl17.cilas.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:12 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:55:09 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:57:46 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:01:59 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:05:30 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:05:47 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 09:07:03 sykopomp: http://blog.flameeyes.eu/2008/12/12/id-rather-keep-myself-away-from-gems 09:07:52 michaelw: just what I was hoping for. Thanks. 09:08:04 anything similar about CPAN? Or does CPAN just get universal praise? 09:10:05 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:10:43 michaelw: actually, that's a pretty terrible argument to me. 09:11:59 michaelw: to me, a big part of wanting to have something like this is that distros' package managers seem to universally suck balls at properly distributing lisp libs. To top it all off, it's bloody impossible to get every linux distro to package up every lisp lib someone actually releases, in their own little format. It might be plausible for large distros, but it's simply not gonna happen for Lisp right now. 09:12:22 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:12:36 and of course, after all is said and done, distro packages only cover (some) Linux distros. Now you have to worry about windows, OSX, and the BSDs, too. 09:12:59 the last two have their own little package things, but then windows is left out of the whole deal 09:13:15 versus having a single library-packaging system that sort of encapsulates everything. 09:19:04 -!- jao [n=jao@21.Red-83-43-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:19:28 So far it looks like Debian does CL library packaging well, even though the versions supplied in Lenny are usually quite old (which is usual for Debian releases). 09:20:00 pbusser3: I can't really bring up any specifics, but I've heard the contrary. 09:20:28 sykopomp: Well, I installed a number of libraries using apt-get, and did a (require 'lib) and they loaded. 09:20:36 sykopomp: Using SBCL. 09:20:49 pbusser3: doesn't debian have an ancient sbcl or something? 09:20:56 and ancient versions of a bunch of libraries? 09:21:04 and clc? :P 09:21:40 sykopomp: Yes. But you can be quite sure that what is supplied actually works on all the architectures which are supported by Debian. 09:22:05 pbusser3: thankfully, I'm not a debian user. Neither are a lot of people. 09:22:07 sykopomp: Good QA takes time. 09:22:24 pbusser3: good thing they have a QA process! After that whole SSL ordeal ;) 09:22:39 sykopomp: *shrug* I know plenty of Debian users. 09:22:41 but maybe they should spend less time monkey-patching code that isn't there and more time making it available. 09:22:48 isn't theirs* 09:22:55 but that's offtopic 09:23:08 sykopomp: Why don't you help them to improve their SSL stuff? It is after all a community driven project. 09:23:10 point being: I'd rather have a single, unified, easy-to-manage way to install lisp libs. 09:23:38 pbusser3: because I don't like debian, I don't like The Debian Way, and I don't care to fix issues that they themselves caused for a distro that I don't touch. 09:23:41 :) 09:23:43 dcorking [n=dcorking@82.153.199.236] has joined #lisp 09:24:22 Jobbesiktningen [n=Idebesik@94.191.140.253.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 09:24:47 but that's just me being a jerk 09:24:53 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:25:02 the lesson to be had here is that it would be really nice to install something (through debian's package manager, no less!) 09:25:08 and then install everything else using -that- 09:25:27 and not have to worry about operating system or personal setup or distro beyond that point. 09:25:29 I'd rather have a working cross-platform distribution system like gems than depend on each distro to package everything 09:25:56 <_3b> having something xplatform that easily translates to distro specific stuff would be nice too 09:25:57 p_l: having each distro package everything works for some software, actually. 09:26:02 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.127] has joined #lisp 09:26:12 -!- dcorking [n=dcorking@82.153.199.236] has quit [Client Quit] 09:26:17 p_l: Right. 09:26:36 I don't install anything on my system, except as Debian package. 09:26:43 _3b: the issue here is that you have to put files in your filesystem somewhere, and it's very hard to get two different applications to magically agree about when that software is there and when it's not, and how it should be managed. 09:26:45 sykopomp: It works nicely for, for lack of better word, "established" software 09:27:02 p_l: pretty much. It seems to work well for stuff like python libraries, for example. 09:27:05 even for perl. 09:27:08 CL has its own installation method, Chicken Scheme has its own installation method, and apparently the same goes for Ruby Gems. And not to forget CPAN. And what not. 09:27:37 sykopomp: CPAN has been around long enough that some distros use automated package generators that create packages from CPAN 09:27:40 pbusser3: CL has *several* of its own installation methods. 09:27:48 I use 3 of them in parallel :) 09:27:54 sykopomp: Even worse. 09:28:09 p_l: that would be nice, yeah, but it requires a fairly stable and accessible interface :\ 09:28:18 and, well, an established language :) 09:28:37 CL is established IMHO. 09:28:44 pbusser3: pft 09:28:58 <_3b> CL is, not enough of th elibraries are though 09:29:39 sykopomp: also, all of those packaging efforts base themselves on existing module discovery system. All of them are also single-implementation or close to that, so they have established packaging method for modules 09:29:43 <_3b> and not enough users to get effective 'tested' distro packaging 09:29:43 p_l: I was trying to figure out a nice way to have distros handle libraries, on -top- of having something lisp-based. Maybe I should talk one of the ABS wizards into givinng me ideas. 09:29:44 Debian has 181 packages which start with cl-. And that doesn't count packages like hunchentoot which don't start with cl-. 09:30:09 <_3b> pbusser3: and how many of those are random snapshots? 09:30:16 heehee 09:30:17 _3b: I don't know. 09:30:32 sykopomp: What are ABS wizards? 09:30:35 pbusser3: the lisp community needs to start making releases. That's part of why debian packaging doesn't work very nice. 09:30:41 pbusser3: Arch Build System. 09:31:05 sykopomp: Arch, as in Tom Lord's Arch revision control system? 09:31:07 Arch has a pretty simple packaging system, so if there's anything that would be nice for experimenting with distro-specific packages, it's Arch. 09:31:14 no, Arch's pacman. 09:31:18 releases aren't as much problem as having code written 09:31:25 sykopomp: URL? 09:31:25 who cares about version numbering 09:31:38 weirdo: when was the last time slime released a tarball? :( 09:31:43 *p_l* often has to make pacman packages by hand with tar, due to makepkg segfaulting 09:31:44 pbusser3: http://archlinux.org 09:31:45 sykopomp, so what? 09:31:59 weirdo: hard to peg something as stable. 09:32:03 <_3b> releases help motivate people using a lib to try to be compatible with the released version 09:32:05 or, sometimes, 'usable' 09:32:10 dcorking [n=dcorking@82.153.199.236] has joined #lisp 09:32:14 sykopomp, why do so? just git pull every day 09:32:20 weirdo: If you can provide working code after each revision, then version numbers don't matter. 09:32:21 sykopomp: (sorry, I was away; catching up) here's another one, which gives an example (near the bottom) why you can't just take gems-like things out of other packaging concerns easily: http://www.madstop.com/ruby/ruby_has_a_distribution_problem.html 09:32:25 there's also the awful mess with (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) which i still find absurd. 09:32:35 sykopomp: Ah ok, Arch Linux distribution. 09:32:43 <_3b> 'pull every day' doesn't work very well for debian which wants to keep the same versions for an entire (long) release cycle 09:32:50 weirdo: That's horrible. It's awful. 09:32:54 I hate clbuild. 09:33:14 *_3b* likes clbuild, but doesn't think it is appropriate for distro level packaging 09:33:25 it's hackish :\ 09:33:31 and it's not terribly easy to get your software on it -.- 09:33:47 <_3b> yeah, it could do some things better 09:34:00 _3b: That is not true, you're the master of your own system. So you can create your own updated packages for things when you want to. 09:34:03 <_3b> (like storing deps per package instead of per system, etc) 09:34:14 <_3b> pbusser3: only if i want them installed globally 09:34:16 _3b: Or wait till they hit Debian unstable and rebuild them for your release. 09:34:30 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:34:30 <_3b> pbusser3: (which part were you disagreeing with though?) 09:34:51 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 09:34:55 meh 09:35:03 I like being able to install stuff through my distro. 09:35:12 what I don't like is sticking to it so much that all my library packages suck. 09:35:25 _3b: what do have in mind for dependencies in clbuild instead of the current per-project approach? 09:35:47 sykopomp: IMHO a gem-like system is better for CL than for Ruby, actually - after all, we do not create shared libraries that are required to run, right? 09:36:15 <_3b> lichtblau: i was thinking that if it stored them per (cl level) package, it would be easier for it to figure out deps of a new package without having to install everything 09:36:25 <_3b> *for a new system 09:36:33 p_l: I'm not sure what difference you're pointing to. 09:36:47 p_l: What about stuff written in C used through FFI? 09:37:42 oh, you actually just mean *store* them differently, not compute/handle them differently. sorry, I misunderstood that. 09:37:43 pbusser3: That could be packaged with generated applications 09:37:54 <_3b> lichtblau: right now if i want to add my own project, i end up cut and pasting all the deps of the deps of my project by hand... it would be easier if i could just specify the packages i depend on, and let it figure out the transitive deps by itselfs 09:38:01 The best thing would be to make packaging for distributions easy (preferably automatic) and for those who insist, CL specific installation possible. 09:38:14 <_3b> lichtblau: i haven't used it much, so there might be some easier way i missed though :) 09:39:11 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 09:39:20 hello. i downloaded an asdf package whose asd is not compatible with Debian's common-lisp-controller. How can I bypass clc? 09:40:05 well, the official way to add dependency declarations is to run "clbuild record-dependencies", and that's it. 09:40:25 pbusser3: I was thinking about two separate distribution systems - one for developers (cross-platform, lisp specific), second based upon platform/distro packages, for end-users 09:40:26 <_3b> right, that requires downloading all projects though, doesn't it? 09:40:30 What I don't like much about that myself is the clbuild project list has grown so annoyingly large that it takes ages to update all projects and record their dependencies. 09:40:32 dcorking: Which Debian release are you using? 09:41:15 it's possible to do something like "clbuild run record-depedencies FOO tmpfile; cat tmpfile >>dependencies" for just project FOO, but it should be easier. 09:41:35 perhaps "clbuild record-dependencies FOO" should update only FOO's line in the depedency file. 09:41:51 p_l: FWIW, our app is gonna be C-callable :-P 09:41:55 <_3b> yeah, that would probably solve my problem too 09:42:08 fusss: What application are you talking about? 09:42:13 fusss: which way? :-D 09:42:34 pbusser3: small server we're working on 09:43:05 though, seeing how you can have a binary that combines a shared library and executable... 09:43:14 p_l: we expose at least the configuration interface to allow embedding into IIS and coldfusion 09:43:18 dcorking: I love how your CLC question cuts right into the middle of a Debian/Lisp discussion 09:43:39 fusss: DCOM? 09:43:58 pbusser3: ubuntu 9.04 :) 09:44:24 dcorking: Are you using SBCL? 09:44:33 I thought of it but my COM is not up to par. Straight out C mate. that way people can use SWIG or write apache module or php-wrappings or whatever. there is also java. still, 12 months down the line. 09:45:04 He mentioned the J-word. Blasphemist! 09:45:34 pbusser3: yes sbcl - and the app is torta http://crazyrobot.net/torta/torta-0.3.tar.gz lichtblau: oops 09:45:53 *sykopomp* goes to bed. 09:45:57 gnite. 09:46:01 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:46:17 pbusser3: setup a VPN server using Apache+PHP with perl client, then start OpenVPN over that, then we can talk about blasphemies xD 09:46:23 sykopomp: night 09:47:53 pbusser3 - symptom is that torta stores data files (a font file) in ~/.sbcl/site/torta - but my image looks for them in the /var/cache/common-lisp-controller in the same directory as the torta binaries :( 09:48:07 p_l: That's not blasphemy, that's prostitution. :-P 09:48:09 *pbusser3* ducks 09:48:34 pbusser3: my ISP wanted extra money for UDP traffic, so I created that crazy setup xD 09:48:52 p_l: Heh! Stupid ISP. 09:49:09 what are the miscellaneous projects that you use? apart from alexandria, bind, cl-def, what should i look into? 09:49:23 pbusser3: tell me about that... thank god for ssh tunnelling, or I wouldn't even have working CVS 09:49:31 just to end things on a high note -- billy mays died from cocaine. Appropriate? I think so. 09:51:46 torta-0.3 works fine on a plain asdf system (sbcl on suse) but I don't have a suse box any more 09:51:50 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:54:10 dcorking: Unfortunately I don't know enough about CLC or ASDF to be of any help here. If I were you, I would e-mail the CLC package maintainer, whose mail address you can find in /usr/share/doc/common-lisp-controller/README.Debian. 09:54:32 <_3b> i'd have guessed that wasn't an asdf/clc problem, just need to change how it finds the files 09:54:41 dcorking: 1. one solution is not to use Debian's SBCL in the first place. 2. Alternatively, change torta to be CLC-compatible. 3. I'm sure there are other solutions that I'm just not aware of. 09:55:28 Is CLC still relevant with asdf-binary-locations? 09:55:46 <_3b> dcorking: actually, it looks like newer versions of torta fixed that 09:55:56 It is strange that some parts are installed in a system wide directory, and other parts in a user directory. 09:56:09 <_3b> dcorking: http://wiki.freaks-unidos.net/torta 09:56:39 CLC and asdf-binary-locations pretty much do the same thing is this respect, I think. Slap an :around method on IIRC asdf:output-files, and that's it. 09:56:47 <_3b> it was using *load-truename* to find extra files, so if .fasls get put somewhere odd it can't find them 09:56:58 <_3b> *load-pathname* rather 09:57:10 lichtblau: I was starting to think that - I thought debian lisp team had a good reputation! I hoped there was a simple off-switch for clc - but it looks like I have to fix torta or get another SBCL 09:57:44 It has been tested with Debian. 09:58:12 <_3b> new sbcl is a good idea either way, if you are doing lisp dev 09:58:50 _3b: that is the version of torta I used. 09:59:09 I created a package for SBCL 1.0.29 or .30 or whatever the latest version is. And it had problems with cl-swank or SLIME. 09:59:11 <_3b> dcorking: sorry, the svn version i meant 09:59:39 <_3b> pbusser3: did you use a recent slime as well? 09:59:54 _3b: No. I used the one supplied by Debian. 10:00:15 <_3b> you probably want am sbcl from around the same time for that then :/ 10:00:32 <_3b> 1.0.18 has an annoying bug though 10:00:42 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 10:00:45 _3b: The SBCL and the cl-swank/SLIME supplied by Debian work well together. 10:00:50 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:00:57 <_3b> yeah, just don't try to TIME anything :) 10:01:10 _3b: I'll try to upgrade later, when I get more used to CL, SBCL, SLIME, etc. 10:01:20 There was a change in SBCL that's incompatible to older version of sbcl's swank backend 10:01:41 _3b: I'm still a newbie as far as CL is concerned. :-) 10:01:59 i don't think I need a new SBCL - I used torta successfully 3 years ago - but it would be a handy way of ditching CLC if lichtblau's source hack doesn't work. Meanwhile I am installing subversion :) 10:02:25 <_3b> dcorking: uninstall/purge all lisp/slime packages? 10:02:44 <_3b> (to get rid of clc that is) 10:02:59 <_3b> even a new sbcl doesn't completely fix it, since clc infects emacs startup 10:03:00 That doesn't work because of the dependencies. 10:03:07 _3b: sure - that would be the plan if I get an upstream sbcl 10:03:28 <_3b> pbusser3: it works if you use some other way of installing the dependencies :) 10:03:32 _3b: How does CLC infect Emacs startup? 10:03:51 <_3b> pbusser3: it uses clc to load slime, even if slime has been uninstalled 10:03:58 <_3b> swank rather 10:04:32 _3b: I see. 10:04:34 aptitude uninstall common-lisp-controller - would do it if I go that far, as sbcl cl-swank and slime depend on it (in Ubuntu) 10:04:43 <_3b> one of the reasons clc is not popular here 10:04:53 dcorking: True. 10:05:03 _3b: You don't use SLIME? 10:05:17 <_3b> it would probably still leave the emacs stuff in the way, thereby preventing you from staing slime 10:05:20 not popular ? I guess the authors keep their heads down then 10:05:21 minion: numerical? 10:05:22 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``numerical''. 10:05:24 <_3b> pbusser3: i do, i install it locally 10:05:31 _3b: I see. 10:05:37 <_3b> you need to purge slime/swank packages to fix that 10:05:40 minion: float? 10:05:41 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``float''. 10:06:00 clhs float 10:06:11 <_3b> it would be more popular if anyone who had any idea how it works was here :p 10:06:18 Hehe! 10:06:31 Not Invented on #lisp Syndrome. :-P 10:06:35 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 10:06:39 <_3b> most of us don't use it (either due to running other OS or just not liking it), but we still get stuck supporting it 10:07:22 <_3b> so the best advice we can give is to get rid of it :) 10:07:31 _3b : Iichtblau knows how it works - it actually looks very slick - the trouble is it is not easy to do what I want. 10:07:33 can somebody prod the bots? 10:07:54 <_3b> and use something we know how to support, or else go ask debian people how to use it properly 10:08:10 The latter would be the best bet. 10:08:36 From what I know about CLC it is very useful when you use different CL implementations on the same system. 10:08:45 _3b: well it would be nice if there was a guide for package developers to make their ASDs compatible with CLC 10:08:57 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-15675.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 10:09:37 <_3b> do they need to do anything? 10:10:14 _3b: no lisp folks on OFTC#debian atm - but I have 3 possible fixes to try from you guys - before I go to the debian lisp mailing list :) 10:10:24 *_3b* wonders how hard that torta would be to port to my flash lib 10:10:38 Re; "do they need to do anything?" - they need to _not_ do whatever torta did :) 10:10:50 <_3b> that is in the .lisp though, not the .asd 10:11:05 _3b: did you write an equivalent of gordon? 10:11:34 <_3b> probably, i don't remember exactly what gordon does, didn't get much past it being gpl or lgpl or whatever :) 10:13:38 <_3b> i think mine is more complete/more recent .swf versions, but has some horrible code inside and not much of a useable API yet 10:15:13 _3b: have you found the bug in torta.lisp? if not 0 I have option 4 : hard code all the failing instances of make-pathname 10:15:14 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 10:15:39 -!- Coffee000 [n=coffee@gl17-045.gl17.cilas.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 10:15:54 <_3b> dcorking: as far as i could tell from skimming it, it was fixed in svn 10:16:39 I don't know if gordon has any users other than torta. ubuntu has finished installing svn - so i'll be back later 10:17:10 *_3b* wonders what made it take that long 10:17:54 _3b - apt-get always takes a long time on the Pentium 3 10:18:05 dcorking: i might know more than i care for about gordon 10:18:09 what's the problem? 10:18:37 <_3b> ah, that makes sense i guess :) 10:19:10 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.127] has quit ["so long.."] 10:19:10 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229132091.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:19:11 fusss: nothing the matter with gordon (so far) just with torta 10:19:20 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:19:27 <_3b> fusss: doing anything interesting with it? 10:19:56 _3b: 6+ months ago, now switched to raphael.js to generate our dashboard on client side 10:20:13 I did a basic flash captcha with gordon 10:21:38 gordon is pretty much a flash assembler, except your write in lisp macros which compile to byte code 10:21:46 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:22:20 is gordon even worth bothering to maintain? 10:22:43 *_3b* wouldn't bother, but that's just due to licensing 10:23:02 <_3b> probably would have started with that otherwise 10:23:05 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229132091.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:23:24 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 10:23:29 <_3b> hopefully my stuff will get to the point of being a replacement at some point 10:24:19 _3b: not to put you in the spot, but your stuff could replace actionscript. lisp on AVM3 ftw! 10:24:47 <_3b> that part is a separate project :) 10:24:57 <_3b> the part that replaces gordon was just to support it 10:25:12 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.139.89] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:26:45 <_3b> that's the main thing slowing it down from being releasable, in that it is a few levels down from my actual goals, and works well enough for now 10:26:47 -!- Adlai-AW` [n=adlai@93-172-60-194.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:26:59 Adlai-AW` [n=adlai@93-172-60-194.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 10:27:06 <_3b> (at least as long as i don't have to compile it from scratch too often) 10:27:37 <_3b> probably takes longer to compile than sbcl :p 10:28:45 *_3b* should try it on ccl and see if that likes it any better 10:29:11 <_3b> either that or spend some more time trying to figure out if the sbcl slowness can be fixed easily 10:29:14 *jthing* is also checking out ccl 10:29:29 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229179089.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:30:25 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 10:30:52 I like a precise garbage collector as opposed to a conservative noe. 10:30:59 one 10:32:38 SBCL is great on numeric processing, once you try to output the results it is slow as molassis.. 10:33:36 And yes I know *pretty-print* should be set to nil first. 10:38:50 Well, my web apps performed better under LispWorks. 10:40:20 jthing: I think it would be appropriate for you to use LispWorks again, then. 10:40:22 Coffee0000 [n=coffee@gl17-045.gl17.cilas.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:50 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 10:42:00 ruediger [n=ruediger@93-82-6-241.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 10:43:03 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178215038.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:43:14 Oh, I will for web.. For numerical stuff I can get better performance from SBCL. 10:43:21 masm [n=masm@bl10-255-131.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 10:58:09 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:59:43 -!- Coffee0000 [n=coffee@gl17-045.gl17.cilas.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:00:20 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-4fe070d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["..."] 11:01:21 Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 11:02:01 Coffee0000 [n=coffee@gl17-045.gl17.cilas.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:41 jthing: they're all interchangeable for web stuff, really 11:03:51 *jthing* loves CAPI which keeps drawing me back to LispWorks 11:04:10 you get better performance by an order of magnitude by just working on the database (or its elimination) 11:04:58 fusss: yes, they are. But LispWorks is faster. Indeed the database is still the critical issue. 11:05:51 Flat files or XML speeds things up more that changing compiler- 11:05:52 php is "good enough" for the web, and any lisp would absolutely destroy php on performance. ergo .. 11:06:17 actually it doesn't 11:06:36 -!- pkok [n=patrick@f102140.upc-f.chello.nl] has left #lisp 11:06:53 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.248] has joined #lisp 11:06:59 pkok [n=patrick@f102140.upc-f.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 11:07:15 what makes sbcl slow for web-serving? 11:07:20 IO 11:07:29 okay 11:07:42 jthing: not in the hand of someone who knows what they're doing it doesn't 11:08:52 if you want raw web performance, you will hunker down and arrive at the same 5 unix system calls that everyone uses when performance *really* matters 11:08:53 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:09:10 when you say "web" you probably mean a particular web *server* 11:09:42 Yes, hunchentoot. 11:09:49 I suspect that the major bottleneck for most lisp web applications is hunchentoot. 11:10:11 If you want speed rather than flexibility you might consider mod-lisp, perhaps. 11:10:12 clisp under fcgi is ok 11:10:19 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-108-120.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:11:16 and allegroServe under franz is ok 11:11:18 Zhivago: FUD. hunchentoot can be really fast (admittedly, where it's unnecessary, binary I/O) 11:11:51 jthing: bypass flexi-streams then 11:11:53 fusss: So, how many threads does it use to process 10 concurrent requests? 11:12:01 Zhivago: 1 11:12:18 subclass taskmaster and use epoll 11:12:23 fusss: Yes, I have heard that helps, but I have never tried it. 11:12:41 Tankado [n=woodruff@bzq-79-179-20-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:45 jthing: it helps to try things, you might be very surprised 11:13:02 fuss: Ah, I see they've finally gotten past the 'one thread per connection' design. 11:13:09 Yes, it does. I will give it a shot. 11:13:44 Zhivago: the default hunchentoot has two taskmasters; single-thread or one-thread-per-instance 11:13:48 But the 1.0 version I have is really buggy. 11:14:13 i run 1.0 release, not even touching Han's repo atm 11:14:39 what parser not requiring lexing can you recommend? 11:16:03 -!- Adlai-AW` [n=adlai@93-172-60-194.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:16:17 Adlai-AW` [n=adlai@93-172-60-194.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 11:16:27 of what? 11:16:30 weirdo: parser generator you mean? 11:17:09 weirdo: What do you mean by "not requiring lexing"? 11:17:21 beach, tokenization 11:17:53 I know what you mean by lexing, I don't know what you want instead. 11:18:00 PEG doesn't require lexing, but the only two implementations seem to be unmaintained 11:18:00 weirdo: franz released their parser-gen for free 11:18:07 fusss, thank you 11:18:27 weirdo: So you want the parser itself to do the lexing? 11:18:34 beach, yes 11:18:47 fusss, can't find links through google, can you elaborate? 11:19:00 hold on 11:19:11 weirdo: That is usually pretty strange, because then you have to explicitly account for whitespace between tokens in the grammar. 11:19:27 they used it internally to represent the network BNF notation used in RFCs. saw it the source code for their mail server 11:19:35 weirdo: unless you are using it for something different, say for a list of terminals. 11:19:50 beach, but lexing is cumbersome, e.g. having to know whether a minus means a negative number or substraction 11:20:17 i once wrote a lexer with a nice compiler macro, though 11:20:50 weirdo: What you put in the lexer and what you put in the parser is up to you. 11:21:06 beach, tic : I seem to have run into some problems with being in Malmo at said time. Seems I need to go to madrid for a month. 11:21:20 weirdo: In fact, you can take an ordinary parser generator and just have a lexer that returns characters (assuming you are parsing text, which you haven't told us). 11:22:09 schme, :( 11:22:28 schme, spending a month under a blanket? 11:22:30 weirdo: Are you considering a lexer to be what makes tokens from input data? 11:22:39 tic: a blanket? 11:22:43 chris2 [n=chris@p5B1695EE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:22:46 schme, under en filt i Madrid! 11:22:57 schme: There are worse things than having to be in Madrid for a month. 11:22:59 Zhivago, yes 11:23:07 tic: Have you been drinking this morning? 11:23:14 that's what was called a lexer in yacc context 11:23:22 schme, why yes, I have. Plenty of water. 11:23:40 beach, yes, i'm parsing text, i'm making up a programming language 11:23:46 beach: Oh yes, of course. and I will be doing nice things there. I was looking forward to the lil' gettogether! Meeting live lispers! 11:23:54 i need a sandboxable language with pythonish syntax 11:23:55 I have not seen any in real life 'cept meself. 11:24:07 tic: under.. en filt.. ok 11:24:19 schme: You could always register for ECLM in Hamburg. 11:24:52 schme, http://turderland.addespropaganda.com/material/himlaradio/radio2/underenfiltimadrid.html 11:25:19 weirdo: all i could find http://www.cliki.net/CL-EARLEY-PARSER 11:25:21 *schme* googles ECLM. 11:25:28 parsergen is a LW proprietary pacakge 11:25:38 beach: I would have mentionde this earlier, but I was made aware of it just 5 minutes ago. 11:25:44 thank you 11:25:48 i'll probably go with FUCC 11:25:52 which is great 11:26:00 schme: Not a problem. 11:26:03 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:26:58 -!- Tankado [n=woodruff@bzq-79-179-20-247.red.bezeqint.net] has left #lisp 11:28:00 tic: I'm going down there for some work related things. I think Lisa would be upset if I spent the time there "under en filt i Madrid" tocgether with a "flicka på glid" (: 11:28:01 benny` [n=benny@i577A019E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:28:16 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A019E.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:28:50 schme, :) 11:30:09 beach: This is a yearly event, eh? 11:30:16 schme: yes. 11:31:12 That'd be a lot of travelling that week. euroforth 4-6 then that eclm 12-13 (: 11:31:19 Looks much interesting. 11:32:36 -!- masm [n=masm@bl10-255-131.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:32:42 schme: There are at least three annual events in Europe that are great for meeting other Lispers, ECLM, ELS, and ELW. 11:33:00 ELS 2010 will be in Lisbon. 11:33:11 sometime in May. 11:34:41 Oh cool. 11:34:47 *schme* makes a note of this. 11:36:28 *tic* can't decide whether to try out slimv or take a book to the beach. 11:37:36 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl6-167-236.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:37:40 hey 11:38:44 anyone knows some bug with CLSQL, MYSQL, SBCL in MAC os X? I'm having a bug while creating tables. I have tracked it, but my fix seems kinda weird and wrong 11:38:49 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:39:01 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A019E.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:40:28 benny [n=benny@i577A019E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:40:30 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:41:10 envi_home2 [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:43:05 *dcorking* slaps his forehead 11:43:38 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.127] has joined #lisp 11:43:45 having finally understood 10% of what clc does, the torta's README finally made sense 11:43:52 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:44:08 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:25 all I had to do was copy ~/.sbcl/torta/freeserif.fo into the corresponding directory in /var/cache/common-lisp-controller/ 11:45:30 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:53 thanks all for your help 11:48:46 weirdo: about the sandboxable language, did you consider E? 11:49:09 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:51:47 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 11:53:52 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:53:56 -!- Coffee0000 [n=coffee@gl17-045.gl17.cilas.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 11:56:31 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl6-167-236.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 11:58:33 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:59:27 virl [n=virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 11:59:45 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:05 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:01:02 hi, why can't I load a package within a file, but from the repl I can? why does something like (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'hunchentoot) makes problems within a file? 12:02:03 <_3b> virl: probably you are confusing run-time and compile-time 12:02:40 <_3b> loading hunchentoot when you run the compiled file doesn't help with compiling calls to hunchentoot in that file 12:02:40 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:03:06 so.. what is your advice? 12:03:13 <_3b> correct solution would be to create an .asd for your project, and load hunchentoot from that as a dependency 12:04:44 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:06:41 virl: well how would you handle these nested packages? 12:06:42 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:35 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:07:59 scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-70-156.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:39 nowhere_man, no, i didn't, not invented here 12:08:51 The package system as defined by CL is flat. True there are extensions that allosw nesting but explicitly, like in parent-package.child-package. It is not meant to dynamically nest them. 12:08:57 besides, e doesn't seem to have macros 12:09:16 why is nesting so important? 12:09:27 flat package namespace ought to be enough for everyone 12:10:25 Then load the files one at a time. And not from withing other packages than CL-USER. 12:10:43 <_3b> virl: oh yeah, asdf loads 'systems' not 'packages' 12:10:55 Or if you have a lot of files use asdf. 12:11:19 3b_: ? 12:11:56 Oh, that's what you mean. Yes. 12:12:52 and what loads packages? 12:13:05 nothing. 12:13:07 <_3b> nothing, packages are created at runtime 12:13:53 If you know C++ it fills the same role as namespaces. 12:14:14 what do you use for including files? load? 12:14:22 Basically grouping symbols so their names don't clash. 12:14:39 *_3b* uses ASDF to load source files 12:14:55 virl: asdf, or load or require. 12:15:56 <_3b> since we have a persistant lisp image, we tend to just load files in order instead of using a preprocessor to combine a bunch of files into one file as C style #include would 12:16:23 ASFD serves roughly the same purpose as 'make' in C. 12:16:34 somehow that doesn't my initial question. how do I actually load systems/packages/modules/whatever-you-call-it from a source file? 12:16:46 <_3b> depends on your goal 12:16:50 or ANT in Java 12:17:13 <_3b> if you want to write a program that loads an asdf system at runtime, your original form should work 12:18:10 <_3b> if you want to load a system in preparation for compiling code that uses that system, you would write an asdf system for the project, and use ASDF to load that 12:18:19 virl, why do you need to load asdf systems from source files? 12:18:28 virl: Libraries are typically stored in systems and loaded in the manner you suggested. 12:19:32 <_3b> for a quick hack, you could use EVAL-WHEN or the reader to cause an ASDF system to be loaded during compilation of your file 12:19:49 deepfire, because I write a program which uses something except hot air? (I don't think that this is soo difficult to understand) 12:19:51 Althogh in slime repl you can write ",lhunvch" to load huncentoot. 12:20:04 hunch 12:20:14 <_3b> virl: but why /from a source file/ 12:20:19 virl, then your approach is wrong. 12:20:35 <_3b> virl: you wouldn't include a bunch of .c files into a single .c file and then compile it would you? 12:21:02 <_3b> minion: tell virl about xach-asdf 12:21:03 virl: look at xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 12:21:19 Coffee0000 [n=coffee@gl17-045.gl17.cilas.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:13 The question is, why ASDF misleads some people into virl's approach. 12:22:32 no, I would do #includes and from my point of view, you are telling me that something basic like just saying the compiler/interpreter that it should guarantee that this dependencies are loaded, isn't possible. 12:22:33 setting (:serial t) and loading the files in order is usually simpler if it is a small system though.. 12:22:35 I remember having the same misconception during my initial encounter of it. 12:22:36 <_3b> deepfire: i suspect it is c/python/perl/etc not asdf 12:23:03 <_3b> virl: we are saying use ASDF 12:23:48 virl, you are misunderstanding system coustruction in CL. 12:23:50 <_3b> virl: if you want, you can do the old-fasioned method of writing a program to load your app and all of its dependencies by hand 12:23:51 no, you are saying that asdf can't do something simple like that. and that was in the last 30 lines of this conversation. 12:24:12 <_3b> virl: no, we are saying it doesn't do it the way you are trying to do that 12:24:17 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 12:24:18 no, hi didn't 12:24:20 please.. I just want to code something. 12:24:21 virl: They are saying that's not what we do. 12:24:41 <_3b> virl: read that link, and start coding :) 12:24:54 virl: In that case, just write everything in one file. 12:25:02 Good afternoon, beach. 12:25:07 hey gigamonkey 12:25:07 Look, when you #include in C you still have to lint to the correct libray. 12:25:10 beach, that doesn't work. 12:25:17 link 12:25:17 virl: Sure it does. 12:25:24 (again: my initial question) 12:25:32 virl, read the goddamn link. 12:26:02 I do I do. but you are getting me headaches. 12:26:11 There is no include in Lisp. Only "link" sort of. Or rather compile if neccesary and then link. 12:26:50 Again it is more merge with the current Lisp image.. but that can wait 12:27:22 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:27:24 Basically virl wants imperative system construction, whereas we propose him declarative. 12:27:32 I don't get the point of this whole discussion 12:27:43 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-28-120.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:27:48 in my memory, just adding the ASDF call in a file works 12:28:19 -!- dcorking [n=dcorking@82.153.199.236] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:28:43 deepfire, I don't care about imperative system construction. just a way to say CL that I need that functionality. 12:28:46 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A5E5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:02 Althogh in slime repl you can write ",lhunvch" to load huncentoot. 12:29:09 virl, then the link should be completely satisfying. 12:29:16 hunch, not hunvch 12:29:36 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 12:29:36 virl, i.e. you need to write a system definition file. 12:29:39 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:16 (We could have avoided this fight altogether, btw, if virl were a little less aggressive about his preconceptions.) 12:31:28 frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@blm93-2-82-229-63-104.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:40 which preconceptions? 12:31:43 You don't to use a library. But if you have several files and/or liobries it is usually simpler. Just put the used libraries in the (:use ...) cause 12:31:46 clause 12:31:47 whatever.. 12:32:04 <_3b> deepfire: seemed more like just normal IRC miscommunication to me 12:32:51 virl: It's basically the same with every compiled lanuguage. Though the syntax etc. varies 12:34:16 virl: what is your exact code and error?! 12:34:29 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:43 if I just have a file with the ASDF loading form and then code that uses the loaded system, it works for me 12:35:02 <_3b> nowhere_man: without eval-when or reader tricks? 12:35:03 nowhere_man, don't jump at him, he's reading the goddamn documentation! 12:35:05 -!- envi_home2 [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:35:16 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 12:35:50 This is a sacred act among programmers, y'know.. 12:36:41 <_3b> nowhere_man: i get a reader error when i try that 12:37:11 dcorking [n=dcorking@82.153.199.236] has joined #lisp 12:37:34 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:38:04 what, I can load the file with SBCL 12:38:09 I can compile the file 12:38:15 r00t__ [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has joined #lisp 12:38:29 -!- r00t__ [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has quit [Client Quit] 12:38:57 wait, I did compile-file after having tested the system, so it's already loaded 12:39:15 OK, now I see the error 12:39:44 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.127] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:40:23 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 12:42:33 *deepfire* watches his ubuntu dist-upgrade installing mono assemblies and wishes updating CL software was as easy.. 12:42:48 Damn, the pain, the envy. 12:42:51 It kinda is, as long as you don't need fresh-from-CVS stuff. 12:43:00 But you do, so... 12:43:44 *deepfire* sheds a tear. 12:43:56 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:51 masm [n=masm@bl10-255-131.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 12:46:29 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-12-53.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:47:59 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has joined #lisp 12:51:37 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:51:55 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-224.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:53:19 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.91.95] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:55:05 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:07 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-217-217.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:57:31 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D668.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:38 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:58:42 good lord man 12:58:48 i avoid .NET on Windows 13:00:26 deepfire: what important linux apps use mono? 13:02:05 fusss, no idea, karmic update inflicted that upon me without my explicit approval. 13:02:13 I don't know about important ones, but tomboy is a popular one 13:03:01 tomboy, is that a gameboy emulator to a TomTom GPS accessing app? the former I would consider important 13:04:34 neither, a note taking application 13:07:11 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.107] has joined #lisp 13:07:21 ausente [n=user7994@189-19-112-172.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 13:07:22 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:09:28 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-241-91.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:10:44 ausente2 [n=user7994@189-19-112-172.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 13:10:53 phil3470 [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 13:12:18 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 13:13:45 _jaosn89074 [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 13:14:34 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 13:15:05 Wow, sdf.lonestar.org is a public access system running, among others, genera. 13:17:50 Whether they allow access to it, or only to their UNIX hosts is unclear, though. 13:20:07 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:20:21 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:43 You are kidding. 13:22:30 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:22:34 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 13:22:58 this server has been on, like, forever 13:23:26 -!- Adlai-AW` is now known as Adlai 13:26:16 -!- ausente [n=user7994@189-19-112-172.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:27:32 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 13:28:26 -!- Coffee0000 [n=coffee@gl17-045.gl17.cilas.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:28:49 Coffee0000 [n=coffee@gl17-045.gl17.cilas.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:55 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:32:54 Any cffi-clutter users here? 13:35:04 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.40.35] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:35:26 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.248] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:36:14 I have a macro which puts a BODY arg inside some defun with calculated name and arglist. Inside that body, I'd like to expand (call-method ...) into (some-name var1 var2 ...) where var1 and var2 are arguments of the defun. 13:36:27 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:36:38 I tried to use macrolet but it did not expand (call-method ...) to anything. Does macrolet actually work within a macro? 13:37:04 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.40.35] has joined #lisp 13:37:35 -!- Adlai is now known as Adlai-AWAY 13:38:09 delYsid, could you make a paste? 13:38:23 (Using paste.lisp.org) 13:38:41 the macrolet must be inside the expansion 13:39:16 iirc, macrolet macro functions have dynamic extent, so once the enclosing macro is expanded, the definition goes away 13:41:04 *delYsid* tries that 13:41:18 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-70-156.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:44:19 -!- Jobbesiktningen [n=Idebesik@94.191.140.253.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:44:27 Jobbesiktningen [i=HydraIRC@94.191.140.253.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 13:45:41 antifuchs, beefing up your telepathic debugging skills, eh? :-) 13:45:47 one of atleast common lisps things, which are heavily annoying is how macros now understand their arguments. if its just a simple a b c or (a b c) or ( (a b c) ) expression. do you see that on the first try which should fit into an argument? or do you also need like me to see examples what actually I should put there 13:45:48 indeed (: 13:46:20 -!- ausente2 is now known as dalton 13:46:46 coderdad_ [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:58 virl, this is not a well-formed english sentence. 13:47:27 then be it that way. 13:47:42 virl, you are asking for clarification, so please, try applying some respect to those whom you ask. 13:48:09 that doesn't have anything to do with respect. 13:48:27 virl, oh, it does. 13:49:00 I don't want to debate about bullshit. 13:49:02 virl, you are asking people to make a conscious effort and answer your query. 13:49:05 virl: I really recommend just rephrasing your question again, and dropping the debate thing. 13:51:04 salva_ [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:06 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:52:10 I don't see what a macro expects of the format of arguments. should that be a b c, (a b c), ( (a b c )) or anything similiar and that annoys me. 13:52:54 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:53:40 So you're asking which of the three above it's supposed to be for using defmacro? 13:54:00 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:54:07 no. 13:55:06 clhs 3.4.4 13:55:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dd.htm 13:55:16 I'm asking simply how you can see the specific format of a macro's arguments. 13:56:29 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 13:56:33 virl, accessing that information during runtime is implementation-dependent. 13:56:57 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest63030 13:57:16 -!- Guest63030 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 13:57:21 virl, slime uses these impl-dependent methods to provide you with a hint, if you want it. 13:58:00 magic 13:58:15 phantom macro works through mystery 13:59:24 *fusss* fixed a bug in a giant macro and he is not even sure *what* he did 14:00:02 virl, moreover, the interpretation of macro arguments is arbitrary, as macros themselves are arbitrary. 14:00:08 the fun fun fun interplay of compile-time evaluation and html generation 14:00:33 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:41 i wrote 3 megs worth of dirty lisp over the last 6 weeks; a CMS and server management thing. only today I discovered what the magic errors i have been getting were and their source 14:02:02 virl, i.e. you can (defmacro foo (x) (if (> (random 2) 0) (car x) x)), which would have a non-deterministic requirement about list-ness of its argument. 14:02:33 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 14:02:40 you see, i have code that compiles into CLSQL opcodes (clos object, really) and those too compile into SQL. i forgot to quote my sql identifiers and stuff like "GROUP" where causing magic down there. 14:02:48 -!- phil3470 [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has left #lisp 14:03:42 -!- salva_ [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 14:03:51 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:04:08 -!- _jaosn89074 [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has left #lisp 14:04:29 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:53 virl, but, as pointed out in the link I provided, you can embed these requirements into the macro definition, making them explicit and fixed. 14:05:08 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-31-27.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:05:25 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-31-27.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:06:04 _3b, I tried the subversion of torta - it fixed CLC just as the comment said - I don't know if there is a shortcut to installing it, but instead I did 'svn export' 'tar -cz ...' '(asdf-install:install ..)' :) - thanks for help 14:06:32 virl, does that answer your question? 14:08:27 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-28-120.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:11:03 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-135-193.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:12:09 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:45 Okay, I've got a patch to make cffi-clutter load on karmic (or any sane distribution, for that matter). 14:18:29 Not all examples are working for me, though. 14:18:40 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.206.126] has joined #lisp 14:21:19 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-135-193.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:21:27 Good afternoon. 14:22:13 Afternoon Robert. 14:22:15 hey beach 14:23:27 -!- dcorking [n=dcorking@82.153.199.236] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:24:42 meh, I really kinda hate preparing for user group meetings. 14:26:24 Wow, looking at the logs, virl was here 4 years ago, and it took only 10 minutes for Xof to kick him. 14:26:28 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-27.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:26:53 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:26:59 Damn, nobody told me I was addressing the void.. 14:27:32 rouslan_ [n=Rouslan@pool-64-222-181-252.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:11 carbocalm [n=user@69-196-188-88.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:29:25 I don't see virl being kicked, and my tab complete still works on him. 14:30:14 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-134.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:30:33 TDT: 05.08.09: 11:30:53 --- kick: virl was kicked by Xophe (you clearly are ignorant of basic rules of social intercourse. Learn those before you come back, please) 14:30:53 ahh, so a few months ago, k 14:31:01 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-27.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:31:06 I said four years ago 14:31:47 hah, Ok, so year first - I fail at reading datetimes :) 14:31:52 He was banned a few minutes later, then unbanned two months later. 14:32:50 Then he came back last January and asked how to replace () by {} and []. 14:33:59 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:40 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:02 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:02 TDT, that's US date format for you: month, day, year... irrational like the imperial system of measures. 14:37:37 Suitable for Jesustan. 14:38:11 -!- masm [n=masm@bl10-255-131.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:39:29 masm [n=masm@bl10-255-131.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:41:41 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:42:08 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest17543 14:42:13 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:54 -!- coderdad_ [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:45:43 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-27.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:50:57 xvx [n=user01@189.247.6.172] has joined #lisp 14:51:11 clhs rational 14:51:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_ration.htm 14:51:44 -!- Jobbesiktningen [i=HydraIRC@94.191.140.253.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:51:49 -!- Guest17543 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 14:52:03 Jobbesiktningen [i=HydraIRC@94.191.140.253.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 14:52:16 "That is, rationalizing a float by either method [rational or rationalize] and then converting it back to a float of the same format produces the original number." ... Rounding mode? 14:52:31 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-27.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:57:13 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-217-217.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:25 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-224.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:00:38 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 15:02:38 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:09:57 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:10:01 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:06 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:14:45 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 15:15:21 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:15:33 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:15:36 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:16:07 loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has joined #lisp 15:16:22 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:50 HG` [n=wells@85.8.91.76] has joined #lisp 15:17:23 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-27.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:18:52 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:06 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 15:20:43 -!- masm [n=masm@bl10-255-131.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:20:47 Eleanore [n=a@c-b82de555.035-34-73746f10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:21:06 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:21:17 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:37 masm [n=masm@bl10-255-131.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 15:24:16 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 15:24:27 When compiling files with macros in them, any functions which the macros depend on must be loaded before the macros can be expanded. 15:24:44 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest76358 15:24:49 or eval-when. 15:24:57 THanks. 15:26:37 -!- Guest76358 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 15:27:07 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 15:31:12 or separate compilation unit, which you prolly meant by "loaded before the macros" 15:31:36 separate compilation unit is less of a hassle, usually 15:31:42 weirdo: separate file 15:31:47 also, if you don't call the macros in the same compilation unit, you don't need this 15:31:53 michaelw, exactly 15:32:16 but many files can be combined into one compilation-unit :) 15:32:23 clhs with-compilation-unit 15:32:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_comp.htm 15:32:37 i'd rather have no separate compile time 15:32:38 just LOAD 15:32:40 weirdo: w-c-u just delays warnings 15:32:48 who cares about fasls when we can dump the image 15:32:56 i care 15:33:03 or make everything (eval-when (all-three-options) ...) implicitly 15:33:17 weirdo: if the system becomes big enough. ask ITA 15:33:26 weirdo: That's what I'm trying to get around. 15:33:38 hehe they probably don't even use :serial t in system defs 15:33:42 which is a must for me 15:34:02 illuminati1113, don't call teh macro in teh same file 15:34:06 problam solvad 15:34:34 michaelw, oh, i see. 15:34:40 that's a bummer 15:34:49 weirdo: I know. 15:35:03 but I didn't want to. 15:35:37 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-27.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:36:09 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.206.126] has quit [] 15:36:18 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:37:56 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:57 -!- Adlai-AWAY is now known as Adlai 15:39:12 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 15:40:59 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:41:44 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:43:14 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.219.245] has joined #lisp 15:44:00 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:44:22 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:45:27 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [No route to host] 15:48:03 "I didn't want to become good at *that*, I just wanted to use it once" -- Zippy 15:50:21 i really wish LW had a bigger undo buffer. it goes up to 11, and that's it; hope you used version control. 15:51:07 just use emacs 15:51:56 Ogedei [n=user@e178215038.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:52:17 easier; just use version control already, dammit 15:52:29 use git, don't settle for half-measures 15:52:37 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:52:53 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:54:06 weirdo: in that case, we should just get together, write a pure Lisp OS with an object-based, versioned filesystem, and forget about this ancient unix crap 15:54:22 just a simple matter of programming 15:54:31 The Right Thing is how we roll after all, isn't it? ;) 15:55:00 sykopomp, you serious, sarcastic or somewhere in between? 15:55:23 haha, only serious 15:55:29 ^^^ that 15:55:36 sykopomp: But I thought that worse was better? 15:55:42 by tilton's law of programming: lisp isn't a SMOP, there's always room for designing protocols 15:55:59 illuminati1113: Have you -seen- how many times he's bounced back and forth about that? :P 15:55:59 ask not what your aphorisms can do for you 15:56:04 illuminati1113, it's not, it's a lie invented by the reactionary forces to enslave the people 15:56:08 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:21 lead the lispniks in their liberationary struggle! lispniks of the world, unite! 15:56:40 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-101-171.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:56:46 something strange is happening here 15:56:59 sometimes i surprise myself 15:57:01 well, not really 15:57:07 sykopomp: I don't keep up. 15:57:19 illuminati1113: you haven't missed much. 15:57:27 didn't think so. 15:57:35 michaelw: Why not come to eclm? 15:58:03 the conclusion seems to be "Don't be stupid and overengineer stuff to the point where you won't get it done in reasonable man-years". At least that's what I get out of it :P 15:58:20 whether that is actually "worse is better" is left as an exercise to the reader. 15:58:31 sykopomp, but we can (probably) write Cells into the interrupt handler. how about that? 15:59:29 weirdo: I'm not sure how I feel about this. 15:59:29 sykopomp: I was joking when I said that. 15:59:59 illuminati1113: do not joke about serious business 15:59:59 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-186.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:00:07 lisp is serious business 16:00:11 unlike perl or java 16:00:26 weirdo: http://www.tilton-technology.com/cells_top.html The webpage is really impressive. 16:00:27 dammit 16:00:28 nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-222-164-136.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:39 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:00:45 Hello all. 16:00:48 sykopomp, typosquatters? 16:00:52 nyef: hi 16:00:52 hey nyef 16:00:55 hello nyef 16:00:59 fusss: hmm, I'm not aware of an undo limit in upstream hemlock. Is that a LispWorks addition? 16:01:04 weirdo: no, cells just happens to be -that- dead. 16:01:20 cells are dead, long live computed-class 16:01:25 (if you have the commercial version, it ships with hemlock sources, right? Have you checked what it does?) 16:01:26 "Hemlock: Poisoning the emacs market since... umm... whenever it was." 16:01:32 but that's attila's and suffers from too many dependencies problem 16:01:35 lichtblau: most likely 16:01:51 weirdo: we should all switch to sheeple right away. 16:01:55 hell. Scrap CLOS. 16:01:56 :) 16:02:06 that object protocol? 16:02:14 of course 16:02:19 clos is fine except for the lack of custom specializers 16:02:32 it's Next Gen! 16:02:34 gimme sheeple MOP protocol 16:02:39 ugh, RAS 16:02:41 it has one, actually. 16:02:47 gimme docs 16:02:53 it has those, too 16:02:56 as long as they're not tinaa-generated 16:03:03 weirdo: Sheeple Meta Object Protocol is probably a Small Matter Of Programming. 16:03:58 unification failed 16:04:20 btw, "sheeple" sounds countercultural and thus hip 16:04:38 weirdo: Lisp is hip. 16:04:51 It's a christian message. 16:05:00 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:05:14 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-186.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:05:15 like jesus of nazareth being a lamb of YHWH? 16:05:30 nyef: no kidding :\ 16:05:35 don't explain the joke, i get it 16:05:50 Well, he did divide the people into sheep and goats. 16:06:25 who were the goats? 16:06:45 -!- Coffee0000 [n=coffee@gl17-045.gl17.cilas.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:06:47 oh, I taking that back. I have no idea what upstream (CMUCL) Hemlock does -- the undo I'm using is from Portable Hemlock, written by Gilbert, and called "New Undo"... 16:06:54 Coffee0000 [n=coffee@gl17-045.gl17.cilas.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:58 *I'm 16:07:02 hmm wonder if i can do simple mop stuff in sheeple like passing mixins as keywords to the ctor and making a new class on the fly 16:07:25 weirdo: ctor? 16:07:39 constructor, MAKE-INSTANCE-USING-CLASS in CLOS 16:07:39 constructor? 16:07:53 it's sea plus plus terminology 16:07:56 weirdo: oh. Yeah, you can. 16:08:01 but don't take sheeple too seriously :) 16:08:05 :< 16:08:13 thought it was a viable replacement for CLOS 16:08:22 for flexible definitions of viable. 16:08:26 :< 16:08:32 what's wrong? 16:08:58 CLOS is an excellent object system that has had years to mature, and has several high-quality implementations, and it's closely integrated with lisp. 16:09:37 Sheeple is a library that pretends it's CLOS, but it's implemented by an incompetent wannabee, is only about 8 months old and still in flux, and is actually implemented on -top- of CLOS. 16:09:50 in fact, the Sheeple MOP itself is CLOS. 16:09:52 :P 16:10:23 Does this mean that the CLOS MOP is a Sheeple Meta-Meta-Object Protocol? 16:10:24 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:10:40 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-186.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:11:01 Sheeple is probably more useful wrt specific domains I wanted to use it for, or for people that want to play around with the concepts in a relatively familiar way (Since the CLOS and Sheeple APIs are very similar on the surface) 16:11:08 prototypes suck for self-documentation purposes 16:11:12 nyef: correct. Sometimes I'm tempted to see what that means. 16:11:19 weirdo: why? 16:11:24 people in JS usually do multiple inheritance by copying stuff between prototypes and objects 16:11:31 and that gets tricky with prototype redefinitions 16:11:50 i like how i can inspect an object and see what's what 16:11:50 I don't see what the problem is. 16:11:59 Who needs mulitple inheritance anyway? (: 16:12:00 and now have stuff from various prototypes stuffed in 16:12:27 sykopomp, you get a sheep with stuff put in it, now knowing where it came from 16:12:28 Sheeple does multiple inheritance by default, and it has ways to inspect the objects (it doesn't have a slime way built-in because I haven't written that yet :( ) 16:12:40 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:12:40 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-217-217.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:12:41 by "stuff" i mean methods and slots 16:12:48 ok 16:12:52 weirdo: you know exactly where it came from. sheep-direct-parents will tell you what the parents are. 16:12:57 but what's so great about prototypes, really? 16:13:03 -!- Coffee0000 [n=coffee@gl17-045.gl17.cilas.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 16:13:16 i once had a feeling when writing toadstool that i didn't need to instantiate 16:13:24 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:27 hmm 16:13:27 (property-summary sheep) will print out a full report of all available properties, and which objects the delegated ones are from. 16:13:34 sykopomp: For SBCL, you might have interesting results by defining an sb-impl::inspected-parts method. 16:13:35 The same thing that's great about closures -- it avoids a lot of boilerplate. 16:13:47 sykopomp, got some impressive code/inspection to show? 16:13:54 uhh 16:14:00 sykopomp, and you can find some slime-inspector examples in cl-perec sauce 16:14:11 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 16:14:19 yeah, I just haven't gotten around to writing any slime extensions. 16:14:20 speaking of implementing sheep on top of clos 16:14:38 just be careful when wielding asdf-system-connection or whatever it's called 16:14:39 it sucks 16:15:04 minion: Paste 32760? 16:15:05 Paste number 32760: "How to make the SBCL inspector suck less for ALIEN-VALUE objects" by nyef in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/32760 16:15:08 let me see if I can grab a good example of the summary stuff... 16:15:21 if you implemented it as, say, structs, it wouldn't get specializers for clos 16:15:39 it used to be implemented as structs. 16:15:40 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-196.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [No route to host] 16:15:42 is the mop the same as clos? 16:15:44 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-186.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:15:55 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-186.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:15:59 weirdo: it's -very- similar, but it can't be identical because of the way sheeple works. 16:16:07 if not, can you make methods specializing on sheep not having a global identifier (FIND-CLASS) assigned? 16:16:24 i know you can in clos. i just don't want to go through it 16:16:34 there's no protocol for messages/replies yet 16:16:37 it's like being raped by... let's stop this analogy 16:16:39 only for objects and properties 16:16:53 wanna base it upon clos or not? 16:17:05 multimethods, single-methods or both? 16:17:10 we can do pattern matching 16:17:14 like, unification in lambda lists 16:17:28 haskell style 16:18:16 salva_ [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 16:19:41 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:44 still with me? 16:21:00 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Success] 16:21:11 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-186.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:22:51 sykopomp pasted "property-summary" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85052 16:23:07 (had to fix a bug) 16:23:19 (so that won't actually work in sheeple 2.2...) 16:25:13 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:14 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C246.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:14 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:26:20 weirdo: sheeple does multiple inheritance, multiple dispatch on replies (methods (without retaining references, so defining replies doesn't mean they won't get GC'd)), reply combination, etc. A chunky subset of the whole shebang. 16:26:40 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-186.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:27:21 i wonder if it's possible to decide a pattern better than O(n) when using pattern matching with unification 16:27:27 basically, CLOS specializers with unification 16:27:48 weirdo: depends on what n is. 16:27:53 I'm not sure about defining arbitrary predicates to dispatch on. 16:27:59 the semantics are a little unclear :\ 16:28:01 pjb, number of patterns 16:28:13 weirdo: then yes, it's definitely possible. 16:28:23 Idebesiktningen [i=HydraIRC@79.138.192.132.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 16:28:24 pjb, hints, please? 16:28:31 haskell gets away with it because pattern matching is basically a macro for case statements, right? 16:28:34 With some pre-processing of the patterns. 16:28:50 hence macro :P 16:29:26 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:28 sykopomp, haskell can determine it at compile time 16:29:28 weirdo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rete_algorithm and http://lisa.sourceforge.net/ 16:29:37 anyway, when you're dispatching on arbitrary patterns for a method, how do you figure out which 'specializer' is most specific? 16:29:48 pjb, thank you 16:30:03 unless I guess you assume there's only one arbitrary predicate, at the very bottom of specificity. 16:30:15 pjb: that's only applicable if the datastore is updated dynamically. 16:30:24 sykopomp, we don't have arbitary specializers. or we do but new specializers must provide info for us to reason on them 16:30:30 like define-hash-table-predicate 16:30:31 hmm, last time I tried Lisa, it gave errors whenever trying to run the samples that used TMS 16:31:05 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 16:31:10 weirdo: Cecil has a notion of predicate objects. 16:31:14 and it can dispatch on those. 16:31:40 but I really found the whole thing a bit iffy. You might try reading up on Cecil and company, if you're interested, and tell me what you think. 16:31:46 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-186.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:31:58 at the very least, it would be interesting to see if enough of a MOP can be written to implement them as an extensioon. 16:32:01 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-186.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:32:07 i'd rather do it from scratch. now invented here! not invented here! 16:32:07 weirdo: specificity is equivalent to entailment for formulas. Entailment testing quickly becomes NP-hard and then undecidable. 16:32:16 dragon67 [n=dragon67@AStrasbourg-151-1-48-4.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:32:22 anyways, I'm heading out. Cheers. 16:32:27 cya 16:32:45 weirdo: wrt to NIH: 'stand on shoulders of giants' and all that. 16:32:56 no need to reinvent the wheel if someone else has done it already, really. 16:33:00 pjb: are you a Lisa user? 16:33:05 sykopomp, programmers don't have any giants to stand upon 16:33:29 weirdo: by which you mean that you don't know your history. 16:33:33 yes we do. 16:33:43 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:33:48 pkhuong, who, earlier than lisa lovelace and charles babbage? 16:33:52 ada lovelace 16:34:01 your statement is an insult to the likes of Curry, Djikstra, JMC, etc. 16:34:07 oh yeah, turing and church 16:34:16 turing, church, etc etc etc 16:34:18 it goes on 16:34:19 it's a matter of scale 16:34:23 look for example medicine 16:34:25 there's plenty of giants. 16:34:31 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.206.126] has joined #lisp 16:34:40 which is random, see psychiatry. people discover things by accident 16:34:47 there was medicine in ancient greece 16:34:54 there were mathematics in babylon 16:35:08 and programming starts with one miss lovelace 16:35:36 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:35:55 i stand on JMC's shoulders and don't hear you from here 16:36:07 what about the "robots" used on stage in some ancient plays? Where a rod with pegs and a rope slung around it would roll the wooden character in predetermined ways? 16:36:10 mathematics stagnated with discovery of calculus in the XIX century. programming undergoes constant revolutions 16:36:12 or looms? 16:36:17 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.59.236] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.13/2009073022]"] 16:36:25 Phoodus, analog computers :P 16:36:30 weirdo: more Lisp, please 16:36:46 weirdo: most of what was considered "medicine" in the ancient greece would now be considered poisoning, butchering and/or useless magical incantations 16:36:50 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:52 anyway, I jumped in late on the conversation, but have people here actually used Lisa? 16:37:00 Apple Lisa? 16:37:07 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-186.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:37:09 Lisa = the Rete implementation in lisp 16:37:17 so would be COBOL and FORTRAN :P 16:37:17 mentioned above via url 16:37:26 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-186.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:38:02 can't we agree that programming is a relatively new field of... knowledge, if not science? 16:38:08 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:38:12 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:38:21 weirdo, arguably there wasn't anything new in computing since Hindley-Milner. 16:39:48 -n 16:40:05 weirdo, what comes on your mind as revolution in computing in the last, say, 20 years? 16:41:19 well, there has been some AI progress, don't remember what 16:41:36 AI Winter 16:41:41 lenat maybe 16:41:46 moore's law :P 16:42:25 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 16:42:27 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:42:43 wikipedia states there has been significant progress in AI since 1990's 16:43:45 progress and revolution are different things 16:45:48 -!- dragon67 [n=dragon67@AStrasbourg-151-1-48-4.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:46:17 AI through fuzzy logic has made some progress apparently 16:47:00 iisjmii [n=iisjmii@dhcp-077-248-127-112.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 16:47:14 But... why would you -want- revolution? 16:47:16 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:47:24 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 16:47:41 (The problem with an AI revoultion is having to bow to our new robot overlords.) 16:47:43 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-186.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:47:49 because it broadens our horizons 16:47:57 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:02 because gaining knowledge is a goal in itself 16:48:15 deepfire: you could call quantum computing a revolution 16:48:21 revlution is necessary when the old ways of doing things become too inside-the-box, with critical assumptions constraining what the field allows 16:48:27 Hello can anybody tell me if it is possible to add a new slot to an existing class in common-lisp? 16:48:28 albeit one which has not yet produced significant practical results 16:48:35 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-101-171.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:48:38 quantum computing is apparently better done simulated on regular computers 16:48:46 of course, from a social point of view, the internet could be considered a revolution 16:48:52 i've read something on ars technica but it was full of physics jargon 16:49:04 internet is not computing, more engineering 16:49:06 iisjmii: Yes it is 16:49:12 iisjmii: yes, redefine the class. 16:49:14 iisjmii: re-evaluate the defclass form with the new slot 16:49:23 and you must mean broadband internet, since internet dates back to 1960 and DARPA 16:49:24 iisjmii: And all the already existing instances will be updated 16:50:09 but do it with ENSURE-CLASS and not #'(SETF FIND-CLASS) 16:51:00 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-101-171.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:51:15 Thanks, but is it possible without redefining the class? 16:51:25 Normally when we talk about something like the Industrial or Agricultural Revolution, it's really less about the technology per se and more about the social application of that technology 16:51:49 Guest14327 [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:39 -!- Jobbesiktningen [i=HydraIRC@94.191.140.253.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:52:44 -!- Idebesiktningen is now known as Jobbesiktningen 16:53:03 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:54:03 iisjmii: You could add an appropriate method on SLOT-MISSING and fake the existence of a slot that way. 16:54:16 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-186.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:54:30 iisjmii: why don't you want to subclass? 16:54:31 iisjmii, CHANGE-CLASS 16:54:44 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.206.126] has quit [] 16:54:53 see also (MAKE-INSTANCE 'STANDARD-CLASS ...) 16:54:57 iisjmii, wait a moment, let me dredge up the piece I used to /rename/ slots.. 16:55:33 or maybe you want contextl 16:55:43 iisjmii, hint: if you make an anonymous class inheriting a named one, you don't have to jump through hoops to get specializers right 16:55:58 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:58 michaelw, I want to add a small bit of functionality to hunchentoot, if I can just have a class there to have an extra slot, it saves me loads of code 16:56:18 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:56:27 thanks 16:56:30 don't overwrite other people's classes 16:56:36 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit ["HULK ANGRY! HULK DISCONNECT!"] 16:56:38 use has-a or is-a relationships 16:56:53 *rsynnott* was always slightly creeped out by change-class 16:56:54 ugh 16:57:16 _deepfire pasted "rename-class-slot (may have bitrotten since..)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85053 16:57:37 Is-a is subclassing, right? What's has-a? 16:57:43 iisjmii: an EQ-hashtable could probably do the same 16:57:52 iisjmii: *weak on keys 16:58:04 right 16:58:07 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:58:21 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:58:26 tcr: composition? 16:59:04 Thansk, but I think I'll do it the proper way by subclassing, it sounds like it's going to be a dirty hack else 17:00:02 pkhuong: Well, what kind of composition? 17:00:12 -!- iisjmii [n=iisjmii@dhcp-077-248-127-112.chello.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:00:50 tcr: juste composition. The word has seemingly acquired a very specific meaning in OO since the GoF. 17:01:10 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 17:02:44 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:50 Ah, I knew that as aggregation 17:02:54 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:03:13 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:03:26 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:03:37 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:04:00 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 17:04:16 Hm does not seem to be completely synonymous though 17:04:40 rsynnott, change-class fits nice when you are discovering things about the object, as you go, choosing a more specific subtype. 17:05:45 certainly cleaner than frobbing the vtable pointer. 17:06:18 *deepfire* giggles at the idea of employing change-class in a RPG :-) 17:06:21 deepfire: Thanks that was enlightening. 17:07:26 another use case for change-class is Naggum's "free" trick 17:08:11 nyef: I, for one, would welcome our robotic overlords. 17:08:18 tcr, warranties explicitly disclaimed: I used it once to mutate a production dataset, to save myself a lot of hassle, but I'm not sure how general it is or even if it still works.. 17:08:18 deepfire: Heh. Took me a while to figure out what you were trying to say with that RPG comment. 17:08:42 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:08:43 -!- Guest14327 [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 17:08:48 deepfire: No I meant your comment about change-class. 17:08:50 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:09:13 Guest14327 [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:46 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:10:42 deepfire: also, just for lulz... (let ((value (direct-property-value =proto= 'pname))) (remove-property =proto= 'pname) (add-property =proto= 'name value)) -> all children of =proto= updated. 17:10:44 >_> 17:10:45 <_< 17:10:52 (cons (find-class 'slot-renaming-mixin) (class-direct-superclasses class)) 17:11:03 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:05 nevermind 17:11:12 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:11:37 but something about adding AND before it, then checking for subtypep s-r-m 17:12:15 contextl is pretty sweet in these cases where you have a conditional override in some narrow condition. 17:12:32 ahh. iisjmii is gone. 17:12:42 I do wonder -- what's the difference between contextL and dispatching on a dynamic var? 17:13:15 pascal has a pretty good paper on contextl at it's c-l.net page. 17:13:29 contextl adds slots and methods on the fly 17:13:29 minion: thwap for Fade. 17:13:29 Fade: please look at thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 17:13:38 buh 17:14:39 so i herd contextl even has dynamic-wind and plays nicely with CPS-transformers WRT special variables and other DX 17:14:54 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:15:33 i've only recently started looking seriously at contextl in relation to Lisp on Lines, and ucw. 17:15:48 lol uses it extensively. 17:16:34 Is lisp on lines a real thing? 17:16:43 I thought it was just a ruby on rails joke :) 17:16:43 rsynnott: yeah. It's drewc's thing. 17:16:48 speaking of revolutions 17:16:51 it definitely is a real thing. :) 17:16:55 Isn't that ucw? 17:16:56 and it's older than RoR, although the name isn't. 17:17:03 going in the direction in netbooks marks another revolution 17:17:11 i think he took over ucw maintainership because lol is built on it. 17:17:14 ubiquitous computing 17:17:23 having a keyboard projected to a desk through IR 17:17:34 and marco disappeared. 17:17:40 or something 17:18:04 sitting on a bus stop, the same. "everywhere you go, everyone is connected" 17:18:14 I'm a bit unclear on how contextL gets rid of the need to write MVC code... 17:18:16 non-tactile interfaces suck 17:18:16 anyone knows where the quote is from? 17:18:25 probably because I've never actually written and MVC, so I'm a bit unclear about it. 17:19:05 Phoodus, it's an alternative to using 10-button cell phone keypad 17:19:22 this is a pretty good explanation of how lol is using contextl in that role: http://common-lisp.net/project/lisp-on-lines/repo/lisp-on-lines/doc/manual.html 17:19:30 sykopomp, MVC is only useful when you really need many protocols 17:19:43 like, IRC, IM and HTTP 17:20:01 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:20:02 but not when using it for frakking HTML templating 17:20:09 like php code monkeys commonly do 17:20:17 "it's a standard industry practice", they say 17:20:21 bumbaclot 17:20:22 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:20:42 Samy [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:02 it would be fun doing a MVC that can generate XMLRPC automatically from HTML-related stuff 17:22:02 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-137-75.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:05 speaking of lisp on lines and scaffoldings 17:22:17 weirdo: how would contextL help with that? 17:22:26 sykopomp, in no way would it help 17:23:14 scaffoldings need to have a way to provide default arguments and extend them on per-task (maybe here ctxl is actually useful) basis, it's asinine having a scaffold function and calling it every time with different arguments 17:23:29 that's why my scaffolding scheme sucks 17:23:48 http://p-cos.net/documents/contextl-overview.pdf 17:23:56 nigel__ [n=asdf@CPE00195b51a890-CM000f212fa654.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:25:14 Fade: I've read that before a while back. Did it explain this? My eyes sort of glazed over the first time around. 17:25:18 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:25:30 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:25:42 -!- Guest14327 [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:25:45 it touches on the MVC thing from a pretty great height. 17:26:25 mk 17:26:50 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@188-23-65-230.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:27:06 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:27:14 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@93-82-6-241.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:27:29 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:28:18 FrozSyn pasted "Label oriented programming" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85055 17:28:23 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:28:45 can you give me some feedback on this paste 17:29:12 frozsyn: what do you want feedback on? 17:29:41 it's too little macros I plan to use, in order to clarify some mathematical program 17:30:02 style? structure? 17:30:11 anything :) 17:30:32 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:30:42 in INSERT you probably meant SUBSEQ 17:30:45 frozsyn: Even if we ignore the obfuscation factor, the code compression return is probably negative. 17:30:48 What's wrong with functions? 17:31:14 for example, should I put a link between with-label and let-label to force let-label to be used in with-label ? 17:31:21 frozsyn: is this code entirely for the sake of providing :test arguments without a lot of noise? 17:31:27 "args" symbol leaks 17:31:33 also, messing with CL is not such a hot idea, perhaps you want to SHADOW? 17:31:34 weirdo, thanks 17:31:46 for subseq 17:32:13 weirdo pasted "let's do macros like this for once and not WITH-UNIQUE-SYMS" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85056 17:32:49 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:33:07 you probably means LABELS 17:33:13 sykopomp, :test is simply an understandable example, in my program, its to be able to say "in the following, we consider this to be this"... this being a set of function argument in a pure functionnal style 17:33:13 FLETs can't reference each other 17:33:25 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:33:40 APPLY and APPEND, ick 17:34:04 weirdo, flet is what I meant, since I don't want them to be recursive, but instead to redefine the older version of the same function 17:34:29 weirdo, can you suggest something to replace apply and append ? 17:34:44 a macro that declares specials like that indicates that you've probably got too any specials in your program. 17:34:47 /imo 17:34:49 local redefinitions of CL symbols are prohibited as per ANSI 17:35:40 so what does your label do? some kind of currying 17:35:47 unless I guess you don't actually use/need the macro that much, in which case, pkhuong's comment about negative code compression is likely spot on. 17:35:51 weirdo annotated #85055 "mexp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85055#1 17:35:52 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:36:41 your (list ;test ...) is known at compile time so you can (intersection ... ,@foo) 17:36:56 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 17:37:45 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["leaving"] 17:37:48 it does currying in a very roundabout way 17:37:54 read on about partial evaluation 17:37:56 and see this 17:38:05 *schme* was just thinking WITH-CURRY was a nice name (: 17:38:27 weirdo, I know partial evaluation, but not in Common Lisp... 17:38:51 weirdo annotated #85055 "partial evaluation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85055#2 17:39:16 schme: SimonPJ wrote a paper titled "Making a fast Curry" :) 17:39:49 and yes, i know about map-ast 17:39:57 weirdo, can you give example with your macro ? it would be easier to read for me 17:41:01 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:41:11 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:41:15 Fade, pkhuong: do you mean that the macros are so simple that i should consider avoiding them ? 17:41:33 weirdo annotated #85055 "partial example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85055#3 17:41:43 weirdo: The declare special vars looks wrong 17:42:00 uhm it's let* 17:42:02 tcr, leaky? 17:42:23 michaelw, I will look at SHADOW, thanks 17:42:34 frozsyn: well, I mean that the macro's explicit declaration of a special in every use might indicate a bad architecture and the simplicity doesn't look like it actually saves much typing. pkhuong may have had a more subtle meaning. 17:42:42 i can't bind a gensym dynamically since sbcl would exit after 4096 or so iterations 17:43:30 pkhuong, what did you mean by "what is wrong with functions?" ? 17:43:58 Fade: ContextL only layers accessors, so you can still use slot-value regardless of the layer?... 17:44:28 I believe so. 17:45:00 that isn't my impression, but i have not used it, only seen the presentation 17:45:16 that's a bummer 17:45:27 but well, i don't use SLOT-VALUE 17:45:30 well, it's layered on top of clos. I don't see why contextl precludes slot-value 17:45:38 but I haven't tried. 17:45:59 Structure your code sanely, as you would in any other language. You want a set data structure with a custom equality predicate? Go ahead. (defclass my-set () ((...) (test ...))) 17:46:12 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:46:27 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:46:39 Perhaps call it BAG to avoid problems with the CL package 17:47:18 tcr: bag sometimes means multiset. CL:SET is used to rarely that I'd just shadow. 17:48:14 *so rarely 17:48:22 weirdo, I've finally understand your 'once-only' paste... the double 'let'-ing, for names to gensyms, and then to gensyms to names, is to save the current environment ? 17:50:11 weirdo: I'd split the LET* into two lets. call VARS .VARS., and add a comment that it's modified implicitly in the macroexpand-all. 17:50:44 michaelw: I think I read that. 17:51:01 weirdo: I think using macroexpand-all like this is a kludge, mostly because cl-walker:map-ast is cumbersome to use. 17:51:29 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:52:41 tcr, point taken 17:52:57 pkhuong, in fact, here is my use-case: I have declared meany mathematical object using CLOS. And each method need to know wich object it has to work with. In an other file, I used these classes, but each chunk of the file consider a different metric space... and i don't want to indicated it 30 or 50 times 17:53:09 Snova [n=kitty@unaffiliated/snova] has joined #lisp 17:53:23 I'd like some curry actually. What a good idea. 17:56:49 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 17:57:21 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:58:26 icphotons [n=somebody@pool-173-73-113-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:36 people, we need libraries. i'm going to make a library wishlist web page with comments and voting, then i need one of you to blog about it to planet lisp 18:02:01 I think we need high-quality libraries. 18:02:09 You said "we need libraries", not "we need a web page with polls" 18:02:14 -!- icphotons [n=somebody@pool-173-73-113-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:02:19 weirdo: what libraries do you want? :) 18:02:26 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:02:29 There are already quite a few ;) 18:02:33 Xach, there better be some way to coordinate, methinks 18:02:37 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:02:41 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:02:49 How do I embed a newline in a string literal? 18:02:52 weirdo: coordinate who? 18:03:03 Snova: hit "enter" where you want the newline. 18:03:05 Snova: When you use format, by ~% 18:03:22 Xach, feedback from people needing libraries to people writing libraries. groups intersecting, that is 18:03:31 Snova: and cl-interpol completes the trifecta 18:04:03 weirdo: i write libraries because *i* need them, not because a library got 100 votes on a web page. 18:04:23 weirdo: people usually write libraries to scratch their own itches, I'm afraid. 18:04:43 Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has joined #lisp 18:04:50 well 18:04:54 or because Google gave them money, I guess. 18:04:58 *g* 18:05:03 if nothing else, there are libraries for many interesting things 18:05:24 weirdo, 'partial' is cool :) but I can not use it :( I don't want to have to check the number of argument of each function... and managed keys and so one etc... 18:05:26 a lot of the available space is things like SOAP, which only masochists would write libraries for, if they didn't have to 18:05:30 Hi, what common lisp compiler/implementation can you recommend a beginner (on linux)? 18:05:36 still, some key libraries may be missing and it's hard to get feedback on all of them 18:05:38 Do _you_ want to use a libarary written by a masochist? 18:05:39 and judge urgency 18:05:39 Geralt: SBCL! 18:05:48 luis: thanks 18:05:49 and slime 18:05:49 GreatPatham: get Emacs+SLIME too. 18:05:53 frozsyn, then use #L 18:05:56 (They'd probably use some terrible obscure source control system :) ) 18:06:03 hirvine [n=somebody@pool-173-73-113-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:06 s/GreatPatham/Geralt 18:06:16 rsynnott, hmm there's XMLRPC which is almost the same thing 18:06:21 and people say SOAP is bloated 18:06:22 luis: I'm already using Emacs, but thanks for the hint to slime :) 18:06:29 weirdo: you ever used SOAP? 18:06:33 rsynnott, no 18:06:43 SOAP is bloated, poorly specified and altogether horrible 18:06:56 weirdo, can you give me some searching keyword... "#L" is a not google-friendly 18:06:57 Geralt: SLIME is awesome, you'll like it. 18:07:05 frozsyn, cl-syntax-sugar on cliki 18:07:11 michaelw, cliki cl-syntax-sugar 18:07:13 weirdo, thanks a lot 18:07:13 ugh. 18:07:20 minion,, cliki cl-syntax-sugar 18:07:25 whatever. 18:07:42 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:07:47 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-syntax-sugar/ 18:07:49 Geralt: Make sure to get Slime from CVS, do not use the Debian package. 18:07:53 hell, we get newbies every day 18:07:56 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:07:57 register 18:08:06 hmm, I am being mistaken for the bot a tad bit too often... 18:08:10 hirvine: ? 18:08:12 *michaelw* peers at minion 18:08:15 tcr: I'm using Gentoo, but that was my next question: what version do I need for emacs-23? 18:08:17 oops 18:08:23 _stink_ [n=stink@c-71-238-27-187.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:30 i'd be happy is cl never grew a SOAP library. if ever a technology needed to die, it is SOAP. 18:08:42 michaelw: better change your name 18:08:51 hirvine: What are you trying to do? 18:08:51 Geralt: There's a very very old version 2.0 of slime, since then people are encouraged to check out from CVS 18:09:02 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 18:09:20 did they finally fix slow screen redraw with overlays on emacs 23? 18:09:28 e.g. erc with buttons, slime-presentations 18:09:30 for a value of encouraged meaning 'you must, or it will not work' :) 18:09:31 Geralt: I'm using cvs slime /w emacs23 without issue. 18:09:48 i don't know how fresh the gentoo port of slime is. 18:09:53 ok, I'll get it from CVS then, Gentoo has only the 2.0 version 18:10:16 it would be nice having a customizable rss feed with cvs logs from favorite projects 18:10:18 like slime 18:10:19 :-) 18:10:38 -!- rouslan_ is now known as rouslan 18:10:39 Geralt: a tool called clbuild can help you get the latest of everything 18:10:43 Geralt: Check out from CVS, place (add-to-list 'load-path "/path/to/slime/") (setq inferior-lisp-program "/path/to/sbcl") (require 'slime) (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) into your ~/.emacs 18:10:53 i'd be happy is clbuild was insulated from the vagaries of upstream repo management by a proxy at say common-lisp.net 18:11:27 Geralt: also, I hear Gentoo has a "lisp overlay" thingie with more up-to-date Lisp libraries. 18:11:31 i'd be happy if asdf-install died a slow, horrible death 18:11:42 -!- HG` [n=wells@85.8.91.76] has quit [Client Quit] 18:11:50 weirdo: s/slow/swift/ 18:11:50 asdf is here for the duration, I think. :) 18:11:55 -!- Jobbesiktningen is now known as Spritbesiktninge 18:12:05 Fade: asdf != asdf-install 18:12:12 -!- Spritbesiktninge is now known as Rusbesiktningen 18:12:14 tcr: ok, thanks 18:12:20 asdf-install is hopefully getting subsumed by xcvb 18:12:28 luis: I'll check it out, but I've already fetched slime into my .emacs.d folder 18:12:57 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Success] 18:13:08 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:13:13 Fade: where does XCVB talkl about downloading packages? 18:13:47 remember some lisp web programming screencast? i laughed every time the speaker had to reload his session because call/cc-based flow didn't reload when a function was updated 18:13:54 (and talk is pretty much what XCVB does atm) 18:14:16 Geralt: If it works (if not, tell), make sure to read the manual in the doc/ directory of your checkout. Also search for marco baringer's slime video. It's old, but it still brings across the general way on how to develop in Slime. 18:14:27 luis: well, I think fare is actually using it to build software at this point, so it's a bit more solid than vapour. 18:14:31 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-48-188.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:14:44 tcr: ok, I'll do that :) 18:14:48 sorry have to go 18:14:51 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:54 quack [n=fhc@81.193.86.64] has joined #lisp 18:15:06 thanks, again and till later (I'm sure I'll come back ;)) 18:15:13 Geralt: wait 18:15:28 Geralt: And after all that read through http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/slime-talk-2008.pdf and try out the commands mentioned there 18:15:48 after that you should be reasonably familiar with Slime 18:16:00 tcr, i love how mismatched commas get underlined in red, thanks! 18:16:24 It's difficult to spot, though 18:16:24 -!- quack [n=fhc@81.193.86.64] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:16:38 not for my cranked-up brightness :) 18:16:42 i mean contrast 18:17:22 I just use M-n, when ever there's Compilation failed in the minibuffer (which since recently will be displayed in red, too) 18:18:12 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:18:16 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.59.236] has joined #lisp 18:19:55 pressing q on compilation notes does nothing 18:20:01 C-x 0 is necessary 18:20:16 Wfm 18:22:13 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 18:22:48 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:23:05 argh, I still can not find how to use cl-syntax-sugar for my purpose... anyway thank you all for your feedbacks 18:24:11 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [No route to host] 18:24:40 stipet [n=user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:24:56 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Operation timed out] 18:25:19 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:25:42 I am wondering if the blackboard system of GBBopen couldn't be modeled to create dashboards, say, for industrial command and control and such 18:26:29 frozsyn: aww, i hope your purposes isn't "to catch cancer of the semi-colon" 18:27:13 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 18:27:48 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C246.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 18:30:03 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 18:30:31 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:30:42 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:31:37 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:32:47 Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has joined #lisp 18:33:02 I hadn't seen tcr's slime talk slides before. thanks. :) 18:34:13 tcr, WFM? 18:34:25 mikezor [n=mikael@c-4ae470d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:34:25 "works for me" 18:34:27 frozsyn, ... 18:34:55 oh, and frozsyn see how *readtable* is bound and where 18:35:17 weirdo, I don't understand :S 18:35:38 weirdo, what are you talking about ? 18:35:49 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:36:14 weirdo pasted "lambda with band for frozsyn" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85060 18:36:18 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:36:39 frozsyn, when you eval e-l-w-b-a-s 18:36:54 it doesn't necessarily happen in the same *readtable* you use elsewhere 18:36:58 i don't remember the correct semantics 18:37:04 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 18:37:11 that will persist until tcr finishes EDITOR-HINTS 18:37:13 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:37:38 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 18:38:03 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:43 tcr, make scratch buffer; type in (lambda (x y) (declare (optimize (speed 3))) (+ x y)); C-c C-c; move to compilation buffer; press q; i get switched back to scratch buffer and comp buffer doesn't close 18:38:46 tcr: will you give a lightning talk at ECLM? 18:39:01 do you make videos for talks? 18:39:16 frozsyn, you enlightened yet? 18:39:39 luis: Yes, probably. I'll demo the Slime changes I did for my employer. 18:40:02 weirdo, oh yeah, I saw this... it's just that I don't see how to use it to avoid (append args (list ...)) ... since I dont know the size of args 18:40:11 Cool. 18:40:20 weirdo: wfm, emacs 23 18:41:01 luis: It's 5 big ones, you'll all love, I hope I'll be allowed to present for 10minutes. 18:41:05 22.2.1 18:41:19 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:41:24 frozsyn, negative code compression 18:41:30 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:41:44 tcr: awesome. We can riot if you're not allowed 10 minutes. :-) 18:42:15 weirdo, again ?! maybe there is something I don't understand then... 18:42:40 frozsyn, macros compress code. yours doesn't provide any set purpose and takes space both in a file and in an image 18:42:49 s/set purpose/functionality 18:43:43 bummer, i'll have to install emacs by hand and i had an ubuntu package... 18:43:47 maybe later 18:45:42 frito [n=user@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 18:45:45 weirdo, in fact, I thought that my macros allowed me to make program readable, since it hides the dynamic variable hell into a clear semantic that can be read as an english sentence like "in the following, the considered metric space is the hexagonal one"... (let-label (~metric-space (make-space 'hexa)) ...big chunk of code) 18:46:35 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:46:48 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:47:17 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-137-75.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:47:22 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:47:44 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:23 frozsyn: what's wrong with (defun foo (... &key metric-space) (let ((metric-space (or metric-space *default-metric-space*))) ...)) ? 18:49:20 michaelw: or even &key (metric-space *default-metric-space*)! 18:49:25 no! 18:49:57 michaelw, nothing, that's exactly what the macro do... isn't it ? 18:50:00 -!- Snova [n=kitty@unaffiliated/snova] has left #lisp 18:50:01 pkhuong: that's a pain when passing on parameters 18:50:03 michaelw: bah at nil-as-implicit-default-value. 18:50:33 pkhuong: I beg to differ, I find it very convenient 18:50:58 the whole key-supplied-p is not helpful 18:51:54 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:51:55 frozsyn: except it doesn't need your flet trickery 18:52:08 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:52:29 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 18:52:53 oh ok, the flet was only for testing... a version with defun is what I really need in my particular use-case 18:53:13 frozsyn: (with-metric-space ((make-space 'hexa)) ... (foo) ...), where (defmacro with-metric-space ((ms) &body body) `(let ((*default-metric-space* ,ms)) ,@body)) 18:54:16 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B1695EE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:55:05 michaelw, but then, the programmer of the mathematical library has to think about all possible dynamic variable the user may need... it sounds like the choice should be left to the library users 18:56:38 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 18:57:01 big design up-front warning. 18:57:12 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:57:23 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:58:13 pkhuong, your comment is a point for me or for michaelw ? I would say me :) 18:58:57 -!- hirvine [n=somebody@pool-173-73-113-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 19:00:37 -!- asksol [n=ask@122.242.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:01:57 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 19:02:02 pkhuong, since I removed any global variable considerations from my design decisions list. It's delayed to the user 19:02:29 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:02:44 Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has joined #lisp 19:02:53 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:03:05 Guest17110 [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:27 tcr: Fade said something about slime talk slides from you, where can I get them? 19:03:51 http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/slime-talk-2008.pdf 19:03:56 http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/slime-talk-2008.pdf 19:03:57 thanks :) 19:06:28 asksol [n=ask@122.242.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:08:00 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:08:30 Rusbesiktningen: New here? Or just a new nick? 19:08:45 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:10:33 -!- Guest17110 [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 19:13:44 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:14:09 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:15:32 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-15675.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:16:03 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9802.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:19:03 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:19:14 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:21:38 Xach, how hard it is to get to planet lisp? i want to use it for library announcements, not random garbage, etc. 19:22:37 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:23:49 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@76.122.37.30] has joined #lisp 19:24:20 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:24:34 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:27:09 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:29:26 Guest82420 [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:39 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:29:53 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:34:55 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:35:06 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:36:04 weirdo: regular library annoucements is probably not an interesting thing to have on Planet Lisp 19:36:22 okay 19:36:24 *weirdo* back to hacking 19:37:07 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 19:37:12 might be handy as a separate aggregator for people who like such things tho 19:37:48 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:40:11 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:43:22 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:43:38 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-20-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:09 hirvine [n=hirvine@pool-173-73-113-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:21 -!- frito [n=user@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:48:03 -!- hirvine [n=hirvine@pool-173-73-113-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1"] 19:48:28 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:48:34 *luis* wishes Intel's thread profiling tools were available on Linux :-/ 19:48:48 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:49:35 hirvine [n=hirvine@pool-173-73-113-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:43 -!- hirvine [n=hirvine@pool-173-73-113-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:52:05 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-24-191.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:52:11 -!- ilitirit_ [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:53:43 ilitirit_ [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 19:53:56 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.6.172] has joined #lisp 19:54:04 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:54:04 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:54:32 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:56:05 -!- thom_ 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Guest82420 [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 20:05:34 what can they do? 20:05:41 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 20:07:03 http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/intel-parallel-amplifier-features/ has a nice overview. 20:09:45 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:10:00 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:15:06 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Success] 20:20:22 Guest64806 [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:34 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:21:43 -!- Guest64806 [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:23:26 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:23:55 nvoorhies 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[n=Rouslan@pool-64-222-181-252.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:35 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:54:49 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:56:11 scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-70-156.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:55 boscop [n=boscop@e181241025.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:57:59 francogrex [n=franco@91.179.255.180] has joined #lisp 20:59:11 hi people; I have a question about style. i wrote a function and put it in a package 20:59:17 here it is: http://paste.lisp.org/display/85066 20:59:27 do macros also work on macros? 20:59:45 (I assume that) 20:59:52 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:56 Yes, no, and maybe 21:00:03 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:00:15 What do you mean? 21:00:24 now it has a lot of setf(s) and the reason I put it in a package was to prevent the setfed variables from appearing in my envitonement (cl) is it an acceptable stuyle? 21:00:32 -!- Rusbesiktningen [i=HydraIRC@79.138.192.132.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:00:33 -!- Idebesiktningen is now known as Rusbesiktningen 21:00:40 sellout [n=greg@64.206.165.226] has joined #lisp 21:01:12 francogrex: You cannot assign to a variable you haven't established a binding for yet 21:01:17 environment that was (common-lisp-user) to avoid clashes with other names variables 21:01:28 tcr, does this clarify it to you? (macro (macro )) 21:01:32 Or perhaps "should not" rather than "cannot" 21:01:38 virl: No 21:01:56 tcr: you mean I must defvar the variables first 21:02:17 virl: The macroexpansion process is recursive. I.e. the result of a macro invocation is macro expanded again. 21:02:40 francogrex: Yes. What's the reason that you do not use local variables? 21:02:58 ok but as the function meta is in a package now; does it avoid clashing of its setfed vars? 21:03:10 then (macro (macro1 )) now clearer? 21:03:19 tcr: by useing let* u mean? 21:03:46 francogrex: Assigning to a variable that you haven't yet established a variable binding for (e.g via LET, or DEFVAR) is not allowed by the standard 21:03:53 francogrex: yes, use let or let*. 21:03:55 <_3b> virl: you also need to define what you mean by 'work' in that context... macros are always evaluated the same way, no way to tell if that way is the way you consider 'working' or not 21:03:59 virl: what does macro expand to? 21:04:03 tcr: well i could, but I was thining a packaged function would also avoid setfing in the cl environment 21:04:07 virl: its up to the macro to interpret its arguments in any way, and this may not involve macroexpanding them 21:04:17 but the result of a macro is a lisp form and further macro expansion will be performed on it 21:04:42 virl: even if the expansion contains or is a macro call of macro itself. 21:04:56 for example you might chain a bunch of macros, (with-open-file "foo.txt" (with-db-connection :host ... (with-foo... 21:05:13 where each one wraps its body in an unwind-protect form 21:05:21 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:05:40 pjb: are recursive macros allowed, as long as they terminate? 21:05:43 by the spec 21:05:45 pjb: what annoys me about the let/let* is that for that many in that function, the parensethis and the traccking will grow exponential 21:05:47 Yes. 21:06:02 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Operation timed out] 21:06:03 <_3b> don't think the spec cared about non-terminating recusion even :) 21:06:03 francogrex: not with let* 21:06:04 francogrex: clojure (and arc hah) have lighter let syntax 21:06:16 they both do away with let, and instead let is let* 21:06:24 and its (let (name value name value ...) ...) 21:06:45 -!- s0ber_ [i=pie@118-168-238-148.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:07:04 ok 21:07:30 In CL you could use (LOOP WITH FOO = BAR WITH QUUX = ZURP DO (whatever)) :P 21:07:33 francogrex: and if you have a lot of that "procedural" code, you could write your own macro (basic a = 3 b = (+ 2 a) a = (* a b) ...) --> (let ((a 3) (b (+ 2 a))) (setf a (* a b))) 21:07:48 Yes, LOOP would do too. 21:07:53 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:08:15 pjb: or just use f2cl :-P 21:09:09 there are scheme compilers that operate by converting each basic block into a let expression 21:09:25 you recursively break down nested forms by replacing the nested form with a temporary that's bound to the result of evaluating it 21:09:44 IF: (loop with a = 1 with b = 2 repeat 1 if (= a b) do (print 'equal) else do (print 'different)) 21:09:51 run a register allocator on the result of that, and you're done :) 21:09:51 LET: (loop with a = 1 with b = 2 repeat 1 do (print a) (print b) (return (+ a b))) 21:09:53 slava: Sure ANF, but I've thought most compilers for functional languages do that 21:10:04 You can do every thing with LOOP! :-) 21:10:14 tcr: most compilers for functional languages don't use ANF. 21:10:22 tcr: the only non-Lisp compiler I've looked at in detail is Ocaml, and they have a more primitive IR 21:10:27 bah, pkhuong beat me to it 21:10:28 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Success] 21:10:35 CPS is popular 21:10:39 ANF sort of sucks 21:10:40 not too many FPL compilesr use SSA for some reason 21:10:43 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:10:48 except for MLton 21:10:52 Then I got the wrong impression from the optimization lecture I took back a few semesers 21:11:06 tcr: in practice everyone invents their own IR that's a mix of all the others :) 21:11:22 read any paper describing an SSA optimization and they'll have a slightly different IR 21:11:46 yeah, the SSA bibliography is frightening 21:11:47 slava: culture clash, I think. Also, ISTM most FPL compilers declare victory when they get to a C-level IR ("look ma, no overhead!"). 21:12:06 pkhuong: well, llvm can help take things from there 21:12:28 with CPS, it's much simpler since Shivers and his students wrote nearly everything ;) 21:12:29 pkhuong: if MLton used LLVM for the low level codegen, it would be a lot faster, right now they hardly even do regsiter allocation iirc 21:13:12 pkhuong: so it seems that SBCL is better oveall at unboxing floats than ocaml 21:13:13 slava: do you know if there are special issues in optimising traces (i think that's the word, bblocks with jumps *out* at arbitrary places) in SSA form? 21:13:40 pkhuong: I've never thought about traces, but I guess as long as you're not moving instructions around past branch-out points, you'll be fine 21:13:42 IIUC, the best way to kill performance with ocaml is to write nested loops. 21:14:16 pkhuong: I believe interval analysis and such help when working on extended basic blocks, so maybe this helps for traces too 21:14:31 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-4-145.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 21:14:39 I don't understand interval analysis, really, except the part where you can test if a CFG is reducible by recursively building the abstract flow graph until fixed point :) 21:15:21 phromo [i=phromo@c-1ec2e455.015-359-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:15:33 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 21:15:46 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:15:52 Vutral [n=vutral@nathan.66h.42h.de] has joined #lisp 21:15:57 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:15:58 ah 21:16:03 what the fuck 21:16:10 pkhuong: so how does SBCL deal with the case where one value is used in two control flow paths, and a different representation is required in each one? 21:16:19 my home! 21:16:24 pkhuong: eg, fixnum float typecase 21:16:40 pkhuong: it seems that in this case, the only sound thing to do is to keep it tagged globally 21:16:45 s/tag/box 21:16:53 you can't unbox it at the definition site, because if its a fixnum, you'll crash 21:17:04 but this is suboptimal because you might end up unboxing the value a bunch of times in the float branch 21:17:20 live range splitting perhaps? 21:17:29 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:17:39 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:49 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:18:18 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 21:18:40 Yeah, ideally we'd be smart and insert a copy (that doesn't get copy-propagated away) after typecases. 21:18:56 mhm 21:19:11 pkhuong: another situation where SSI form might help 21:19:22 where walked the microdeveloper area 21:19:35 i am missing that chan 21:19:58 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:08 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:21:22 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:22:49 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:23:57 mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #lisp 21:24:58 pkhuong: You mean you can mostly translate down from shivers' et al papers? 21:25:48 pjb: "You can do every thing with LOOP! :-)" <- I am using iterate now more tha loop because it has extensibility features 21:26:00 tcr: I mean that they wrote a lot of the interesting analyses and transformations, so that gives you one unifying direction. 21:26:16 a nice summary for CPS is ; also shows downsides 21:26:31 +of ANF 21:27:41 michaelw: do CPS compilers consider a function + all of its local functions as a single unit, or do they consider each local function separately? 21:27:55 lambdas don't count since those cannot directly call other lambdas in the same function recursively 21:28:01 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:28:19 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-164-199.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:15 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:38:16 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:38:27 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:39:32 -!- masm [n=masm@bl10-255-131.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:39:51 Headcrab [n=ThomasH@d142-179-29-162.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:34 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:40:38 -!- danlei``` [n=user@pD9E2C8EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:42:26 masm [n=masm@bl10-255-131.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:43:00 -!- phromo [i=phromo@c-1ec2e455.015-359-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )"] 21:43:10 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-168-239-204.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:32 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:43:38 bah, c-l.net's cvs server is slow today 21:43:43 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:47:41 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-24-191.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:48:30 locciawawaw [n=nes@93.37.219.245] has joined #lisp 21:48:53 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:49:04 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:49:42 cool stuff to wear 21:49:46 i can code again 21:50:00 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:50:24 -!- Geralt 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[n=ati@adsl-89-132-2-49.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:03:12 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:03:26 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.179.255.180] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:05:03 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:05:14 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:06:42 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-164-199.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:07:31 -!- Vutral [n=vutral@nathan.66h.42h.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:08:48 <[df]_> dfox: 22:09:03 <[df]_> sorry, mischat 22:10:39 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:10:55 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-20-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:11:49 -!- masm [n=masm@bl10-255-131.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:12:48 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Operation timed out] 22:13:10 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:13:45 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-135-193.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:15:42 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:16:14 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:16:54 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:17:02 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-4-145.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:16 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:21:38 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:24:54 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-158-145.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:43 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:26:57 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:27:00 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@adsl-89-132-2-49.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:29:35 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-76-115-73-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:54 danlei [n=user@pD9E2C9A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:59 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:14 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:34:30 there should be created a site just for videos of computer science courses ! 22:36:01 this is maybe unrelated question, but are there any videos from math courses? (like partial differential equations 101?) 22:36:55 a-s: itunesU 22:37:06 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:37:15 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:37:33 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:37:55 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:38:51 ment: for math problems are lots of encylopedias very well documented 22:39:20 but if you want to look on the web for a video about lr/slr/lalr parsing , you do not find ! 22:39:54 xristos: itunesU is a program. 22:39:58 ha! mit opencourseware has a lot of math lectures, splendid 22:40:03 xristos: i need _videos_. 22:40:20 ment: not only. 22:40:45 ment: not only mit press you find 22:40:56 a-s: sorry for not finding exactly what you want 22:41:57 *Ralith* finds videos to be an awkward way to convey information 22:41:58 xristos: thanks 22:42:24 Ralith: what is your best way to understand lalr ? 22:42:34 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:42:45 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:43:46 a-s: thoroughly! 22:45:41 Ralith: right. it is very delicate subject 22:45:59 a-s: anyway, if you find anything on LALR that works for you, let me know 22:47:03 ment: ya, the book of dg. it is the best reference to the subject 22:47:05 http://www.cs.vu.nl/~dick/PTAPG.html 22:47:49 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [] 22:47:50 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:48:02 ment: print it, and spend lots of hours to debug it. :) 22:48:10 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:48:12 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:48:19 it is well explained, but the subject is delicate. 22:48:26 :)) 22:48:38 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Success] 22:49:02 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:25 anyone using regex in sbcl ? 22:52:52 can someone show an example maybe of code where it is used ? 22:52:59 snippets! 22:53:24 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:54:36 i use cl-ppcre 22:54:47 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:54:49 say i want to match a certain package in the *package-list* which i set using (list-all-packages) 22:55:40 or say i want to have something like grep for it on the output of (list-all-packages)! 22:56:17 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:56:27 minion: tell sepult about cl-ppcre 22:56:28 sepult: direct your attention towards cl-ppcre: CL-PPCRE is a portable, Perl-compatible regular expression library by Edi Weitz. http://www.cliki.net/cl-ppcre 22:57:04 sepult: On the cliki page, there'll probably be examples. If not, check the homepage of CL-PPCRE, that's linked to on the cliki page. 22:58:22 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-20-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:50 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:51 ok i found it 23:01:02 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 23:01:18 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:01:29 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:01:39 minion: logs 23:01:39 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 23:02:11 *gigamonkey* *finally* drags that stupid URL into his bookmarks toolbar. 23:02:52 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-135-193.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:03:03 Good evening. 23:03:27 Uh, "evening"? Isn't it like 1am there? 23:04:11 gigamonkey: Yeah, but "good night" sounds so final. 23:04:22 True. 23:04:49 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:05:45 beach: I was chatting with some folks here about an idea I have of taking some piece of Lisp code and writing a small book explaining how it works. What code, if any, would you be interested in having subjected to such treatment. 23:06:35 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:06:46 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:07:59 *Fade* peers at Adlai 23:08:15 gigamonkey: I have several candidates, depending on the size you are interested in: McCLIM, Gsharp, ESA, Climacs, etc. 23:08:23 Fade: hmm? 23:08:36 pinging the whole channel. 23:08:57 I thought my connection died. Could've checked a bit more gracefully, I guess. 23:09:02 :) 23:09:20 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:10:31 Fade: how could you tell I pinged the entire channel? 23:10:40 beach: which of those do you think would be the most interesting to someone, independent of whether they have any interested in using it? 23:10:50 Adlai: my client notified me. 23:11:07 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 23:11:37 Fade: it could tell that I pinged the channel and not just you? interesting. 23:11:46 ShadowChild [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 23:11:51 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:11:55 gigamonkey: mcclim's presentations are something that more people should be aware of. (That Microsoft shell reinvented them recently) 23:12:00 well, it was a server notification because the ping was a ctcp command. 23:12:10 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:12:26 tcr: are McClim presentations the same thing as Lisp Machine / SLIME presentations? 23:12:55 Fade: xcvb is not for library distribution. It's for building. 23:12:55 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:13:23 sykopomp: ? 23:14:06 Fade: xcvb is for system definition, not for distributing a library 23:14:16 the same goes for asdf 23:15:28 spage [n=shawnpag@cpe-066-057-107-034.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:40 tcr: have a link or keyword that i may search for regarding that shell ? 23:17:15 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:17:26 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:17:52 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:19:49 bytecolor [n=user@32.159.51.237] has joined #lisp 23:19:56 -!- bytecolor [n=user@32.159.51.237] has left #lisp 23:20:41 trying to do (asdf-install:install :hunchentoot). it doesn't have signature? 23:21:36 not unless you've gone to some measures to add the signatures. 23:22:36 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:22:44 Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has joined #lisp 23:23:32 Fade: what measures? 23:23:49 adding the archive maintainer's gpg key to your key ring. 23:23:56 I've never bothered with it. 23:24:09 *sykopomp* fixes that problem by not using asdf-install. 23:24:15 although I moved to using clbuild to manage that stuff quite awhile ago. 23:25:02 npoektop: if you use asdf-install, it's up to you to make sure you grab the GPG keys you need. You can choose to ignore the GPG error, but remember that asdf-install downloads from cliki, so anyone can replace the download link. 23:25:21 so what should i do? 23:26:16 minion: please tell npoektop about clbuild 23:26:17 npoektop: please look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 23:26:31 thanx 23:26:34 npoektop: well, if you're using asdf-install, you can select to continue w/out the key. 23:26:42 but I suggest you use clbuild. 23:27:28 Fade: won't risk with asdf-install 23:27:47 clbuild is the latest rage. I'm annoyed at it, but there's nothing better available. 23:28:06 clbuild frequently breaks down, but it is the best current option. 23:29:19 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:30:14 Fade: it's also a royal pita to get libraries up on itt. 23:30:27 and it certainly doesn't seem to deal very well with the volume it's handling now. 23:30:48 there's also the issue of being more than slightly annoyed at the "just grab the latest push" attitude. 23:30:59 why cliki and packages mainteiners don't protect those links for asdf-install? 23:31:10 cliki is a wiki 23:31:39 npoektop: thats why you have the whole public key/signature thing 23:32:39 asdf-install may have its problems but its not broken in that sense unless you choose to 23:32:56 i suspect not all of the packages are signed. hunchentoot seems to be unsigned 23:33:18 -!- tag [n=chatzill@p3m/member/tag] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.12/2009070818]"] 23:33:33 http://weitz.de/files/hunchentoot.tar.gz.asc 23:33:36 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 23:33:45 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:34:21 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:34:32 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:35:38 No key found for key id 0x#1=595FF045057958C6. Try some command like gpg --recv-keys 0x#1# 23:35:39 23:35:51 what should i do with this? 23:36:14 learn the fundamentals of public key cryptography ? 23:36:17 copy to shell and run? 23:36:52 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 23:36:53 you may also find this helpful: http://common-lisp.net/keyring.asc 23:38:55 ok. i'll read gpg manual now. but here: http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf-install/tutorial/index-save.html#security is written that such a message says that There was no signature corresponding to this package. 23:39:41 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:39:42 The library was signed but the signer's public key wasn't found in your public keyring. 23:39:42 23:39:42 23:39:44 lukjadOO7 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 23:39:51 i think thats what you're looking for 23:39:55 npoektop: have you seen http://twoguysarguing.wordpress.com/2009/08/05/asdf-install-and-gpg-signatures/ ? 23:39:55 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:39:58 it is pretty handy 23:40:35 gpg --import keyring.asc 23:40:35 23:40:48 a lot of keys in there 23:41:30 oh, i read it back to front ( it's really not found in keyring 23:41:32 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-76-115-73-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:37 thank you 23:42:46 -!- ShadowChild [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:01 Xach: thanx 23:44:37 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Operation timed out] 23:46:03 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:46:55 Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has joined #lisp 23:47:19 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:47:45 -!- frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@blm93-2-82-229-63-104.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:48:30 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:49:03 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:50:07 i don't understand why that blog post implies that asdf-install is at fault here, when people forget to sign things or don't upload the correct signatures etc 23:51:08 xristos: it's an annoying model. I figure it's just bound to end up that way. 23:51:29 I think it makes more sense to secure things from the uploader perspective. 23:51:34 works damn well for CPAN, it seems. 23:52:24 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:52:35 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:52:36 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:55:29 i assume cpan uses checksums only ? 23:55:48 if so, there have been issues with that model too 23:57:38 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:58:05 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-207.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:58:22 xristos: microsoft powershell 23:59:46 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."]