00:00:37 gonzojive: ask for a string. 00:04:51 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:08:17 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 00:08:27 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 00:13:33 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 00:14:46 -!- Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:17:15 oh well, got a binary here: http://common-lisp.net/~loliveira/tmp/sbcl-1.0.30-x86-64-solaris-binary.tar.bz2 but the test suite seems to hang. 00:17:53 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 00:19:31 -!- lde [n=nuser@62.121.65.184] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:20:00 lde [n=nnuser@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 00:20:19 any of you managed to open the c.l.l archives file? 00:20:36 i tried at mutt but it only opened about 25 messages of the whole 600 mb archive 00:21:21 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:24:38 i just extracted the messages i wanted to read ;p 00:24:39 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-083-015.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 00:25:30 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-16-154.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:27:35 got some luck with mb2md 00:31:32 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-156dae53b2c20b15] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:32:40 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:40:53 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Operation timed out] 00:42:50 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 00:42:55 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-50-247.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:03 blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 00:44:30 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["restarting ERC"] 00:44:42 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:59 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 00:45:53 ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-178-196.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 00:46:15 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 00:47:42 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:47:58 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:48:05 dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 00:48:44 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-90-175-82.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:44 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:44 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:44 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:44 -!- enn [n=eli@codeanddata.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:44 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:44 -!- ilitirit_ [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:48:44 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-178-196.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 -!- konr|away [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-140-200.w81-48.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 -!- GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host185.190-137-186.telecom.net.ar] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 -!- rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 -!- ennen [n=nn@studio25.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 -!- hdurer [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-ujlslpqfblazwxzi] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 -!- Bucciarati [n=buccia@212.45.155.126] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 -!- sea-gull [i=seagull@server1.bshellz.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 -!- xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 -!- joshe [n=joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 -!- guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 -!- herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 -!- rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:49:17 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:41 Faed [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 00:49:50 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 00:49:58 enn [n=eli@codeanddata.com] has joined #lisp 00:50:00 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-178-196.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 konr|away [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-140-200.w81-48.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 hdurer [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-ujlslpqfblazwxzi] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 Tordek [n=tordek@host185.190-137-186.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 sea-gull [i=seagull@server1.bshellz.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 joshe [n=joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 ennen [n=nn@studio25.org] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 Bucciarati [n=buccia@212.45.155.126] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:35 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:52:40 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:01 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-90-175-82.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:53:31 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 00:54:28 ilitirit_ [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 00:58:42 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:49 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:00:17 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:00:32 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:01:08 -!- Faed is now known as Fade 01:04:20 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:49 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:16 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-178-196.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:08:22 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 01:08:57 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:46 saikat [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:17 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 01:13:54 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host185.190-137-186.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:15:53 jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 01:17:44 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F029.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:20:37 hmm the *SLIME Compilation* buffer has gotten considerably prettier 01:21:40 malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 01:22:13 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-66.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:22:43 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-141.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 01:23:29 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:23:50 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has joined #lisp 01:25:34 -!- bytbox [n=sclawren@silverchips.mbhs.edu] has left #lisp 01:32:00 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fxweazupioylbdzt] has joined #lisp 01:33:39 older Allegro builds before 8.1 are available with no memory limits right? 01:33:57 dmiles_afk: first time I heard of that 01:34:00 why would you think so? 01:35:21 i remember a year ago seeing something like that on their download page 01:35:29 I think the only commercial implementations without limits in evaluation versions are Corman and SCL 01:36:13 why bother with commercial impls? 01:36:19 sbcl is faster than any single one of them 01:36:26 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 01:36:39 maybe it was some other commercial impl 01:36:42 weirdo: speed is not everything, young padawan 01:36:44 weirdo: especially on HP-PA or IA-64? :D 01:36:55 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:37:18 (sorry, couldn't help it) 01:37:24 commercial? you mean proprietary? 01:37:29 CCL is commercial too 01:37:43 its for compatibilty with some code someone is about to give me.. i am thinking its Allegro based for whatever that could mean 01:39:26 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:39:58 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 01:40:14 hi sohail 01:40:45 slava hey . 01:40:59 lol, that's all the factor I can remember 01:41:25 bbiab 01:42:22 stassats, yeah, that's what i meant :) 01:42:30 sure, acl or lw has moar libraries 01:42:52 i guess maybe it was LispWorks that has "the old releases are free policy" 01:43:27 weirdo: commercial implementations also sometimes support threads on platforms that sbcl doesn't 01:43:41 weirdo: as well as app delivery 01:43:45 its just all about performance :) 01:44:09 i dont need performance.. it just uses lisp to generate the compilable sources 01:44:14 sbcl's compiler does seem more advanced than anything franz or lispworks have to offer, though 01:44:30 but they're commercial which makes them evil capitalist pigs! ;) 01:48:48 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:49:01 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 01:49:06 slava: how far has CMUCL and SBCL diverged? cause iirc CMUCL, SBCL and SCL are one slightly distant family :D 01:49:33 enough to prefer SBCL over CMUCL 01:50:12 SBCL has diverged enormously from CMUCL 01:50:42 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-142-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:32 not to be harsh to the folks at CMU, but is there any reason to even use CMUCL anymore? 01:51:33 so has SCL 01:52:59 i heard once that SCL still contributes some backported patches from time to time, but I didn't really check on that 01:53:21 it's 4am and my stupid cat is meowing 01:53:42 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-22-219.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:53:55 weirdo: meow back at him and see how it make a double-take 01:54:04 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:54:28 weirdo: bathe it. 01:54:48 Adlai: you...you... EVIL CAT HATER :P 01:56:37 old timers like CMUCL since it doesn't change 01:57:12 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:57:14 you made this up? 01:57:48 there may be some folks who like CMUCL's block compilation feature (or whatever it's called) 01:58:12 alexbobp_ [n=alex@75.42.225.23] has joined #lisp 01:58:47 p_l: I actually am a huge fan of cats... only one in my family :( 01:59:35 stassats, i didn't. some person on cll mentioned using an antique cmucl version and being happy that it doesn't change 01:59:40 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-22-219.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:51 since it doesn't change, it doesn't have regressions 02:00:06 cmucl doesn't have many bugs left since it doesn't implement new features 02:00:07 antique version of anything doesn't change 02:00:21 yeah, but you get my meaning 02:00:23 weirdo: that's not true. 02:00:44 cmucl has quite a few bugs, but its users have obviously found ways to work around them 02:01:33 oh 02:01:39 weirdo: it has a lot of new features, gencgc/ppc, unicode, sse and double-floats come to mind. 02:01:54 some still use pre-1.0 sbcl, just because it works for them 02:01:57 hmm, quad-floats 02:02:15 does cmucl work on windows now, or is that still a private thing? 02:02:21 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 02:03:00 luis: double-double-floats 02:03:27 (everybody's got plain ol' double-floats) 02:03:39 sbcl has gencgc on ppc too? 02:03:57 stassats: yes, it was ported over by cyrus 02:04:36 -!- rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:04:44 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 02:04:49 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Client Quit] 02:04:53 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:54 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@75.42.225.23] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:04:56 -!- alexbobp_ is now known as alexbobp 02:06:20 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:07:56 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-70-51.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:10:07 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fxweazupioylbdzt] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:10:21 who's cyrus? 02:10:50 weirdo: slyrus 02:11:07 oh :) 02:12:06 -!- ausente is now known as Tim_Maia 02:12:27 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@pool-96-241-62-146.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:44 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bihhktsfzzitrubm] has joined #lisp 02:12:55 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bihhktsfzzitrubm] has quit [Client Quit] 02:13:09 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ihqbhklxtxsibhxc] has joined #lisp 02:13:42 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:14:50 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@host-245-159.pubnet.pdx.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:15:54 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:16:07 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 02:16:30 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:18:57 -!- blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:25:18 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:27:45 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:12 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-141.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 02:31:59 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:33:12 saikat [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:53 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-141.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 02:34:41 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy 02:34:41 maybe hello 02:36:14 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Client Quit] 02:36:22 no more hello left 02:37:41 :( 02:38:25 nerdshark [n=dorkfish@74-131-35-150.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 02:38:42 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-142-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:38:42 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 02:39:26 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:41:42 What's the preferred portability library and call for setting the "current directory" portably? 02:42:49 What means "current directory" to lisp? 02:43:05 (load "blah.txt") <-- the directory blah.txt is loaded from 02:43:40 hoh. good luck there (: I have never found a way to do that. 02:43:59 Modius: *default-pathame-defaults* 02:44:25 I see lib CLOCC has a chdir in it with several implementations listed but wasn't sure if this was that kind of library 02:44:27 e.g. (setf *default-pathame-defaults* #p"/foo/bar/") <-- note trailing slash, as always 02:44:47 oh SETTING 02:44:51 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:57 sorry just woke up, I was reading GETTING current directory. 02:45:34 Modius: *d-p-d* is specified by the CL standard and has a standard effect on LOAD and friends. POSIX cwd has sufficiently different semantics that it has to be dealt with separately, hence OS calls and portability libs 02:46:15 Moe111 pasted "macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84879 02:46:32 anyone know what might be wrong with my macro over there? 02:47:19 (PS. the macro expansion is truncated... the multiple-value-bind is being repeated for each field) 02:48:06 Moe111: It is a bit hard to say when we don't know what you want it to do (: 02:48:06 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-96-241-62-146.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:48:17 I am annotating right now =) 02:48:44 hold on. I'll just simplify it . Sorry for the abrupt question, I was totally wrapped up in my programming. 02:50:33 good feelin' (: 02:50:34 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ihqbhklxtxsibhxc] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:51:01 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:51:13 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:30 -!- Adlai is now known as Adlai-AWAY 02:52:54 -!- Adlai-AWAY is now known as Adlai 02:53:45 __himself__ [n=wilbur@190.166.38.224] has joined #lisp 02:54:43 Moe111 annotated #84879 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84879#1 02:54:49 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:54:55 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:55:05 however, it doesn't 02:55:46 in fact, the simplified example doesn't even work =( 02:55:47 sigh. 02:56:06 I frustrate myself right now. Does anyone get what I'm trying to get at? 02:56:55 dysinger [n=dysinger@200.25.197.105] has joined #lisp 02:57:11 Oh. Never mind, everyone. 02:57:15 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 02:57:17 stuart71 [n=user@adsl-222-101-171.jan.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:17 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.175.159] has joined #lisp 02:57:36 was using macroexand instead of macroexpand-1 02:57:49 thanks, you've all been great. Remember to tip your waitress 02:58:05 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 02:58:45 heh :) 02:58:57 Andrew_M [n=chatzill@99.130.193.16] has joined #lisp 02:59:43 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dwlnxlgmufpecjpu] has joined #lisp 02:59:49 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dwlnxlgmufpecjpu] has left #lisp 03:00:04 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:00:41 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wpcavjjhiouqiibc] has joined #lisp 03:01:01 can someone explain to me why clue and clio both require #+cmucl, even though the package I'm using is clx-sbcl? 03:01:20 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:01:21 -!- Andrew_M is now known as soapstone 03:03:40 oops. Sorry, let me restate that question. Is there some reason why clue and clio can't work with clx-sbcl? 03:07:59 liebevil [n=lieb@110.49.147.124] has joined #lisp 03:09:21 -!- stuart71 [n=user@adsl-222-101-171.jan.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:10:13 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Success] 03:11:58 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:51 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:20:34 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:17 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:24:58 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:25:43 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 03:29:34 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:42 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has left #lisp 03:30:51 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 03:30:57 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:18 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@200.25.197.105] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:33:08 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 03:35:29 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 03:38:43 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:40:20 -!- liebevil [n=lieb@110.49.147.124] has left #lisp 03:44:55 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wpcavjjhiouqiibc] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:44:59 weirdo pasted "incorrect type assertion" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84883 03:45:25 phax [n=user@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 03:46:14 lisppaste: try using ECASE instead of CASE 03:46:18 er, weirdo 03:46:25 thank you 03:46:32 now it works 03:48:26 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:53:46 -!- __himself__ [n=wilbur@190.166.38.224] has left #lisp 03:54:19 girzel [n=user@61.51.238.174] has joined #lisp 04:01:10 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:03:52 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:45 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 04:10:10 -!- nerdshark [n=dorkfish@74-131-35-150.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit ["WeeChat 0.3.0-rc2"] 04:10:40 -!- dabd [n=dabd@85.139.100.236] has quit [Client Quit] 04:11:54 -!- phax [n=user@unaffiliated/phax] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:15:20 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-yybybcqjekdkngjt] has joined #lisp 04:21:18 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:23:01 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:29:44 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:32:05 weirdo: you don't sleep, do you? :D 04:32:10 i don't 04:32:20 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.37.161] has joined #lisp 04:32:29 weirdo: what TZ you in? 04:32:40 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-191.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:33:00 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:34:40 CET 04:34:47 p_l, Adlai: no response yet to my plea yesterday to at least tell me what fonts they are planning to use so I can send them a LaTeX typeset version of Coders at Work. 04:34:51 this is insane. cl-jpeg uses simple-vectors (!) 04:35:15 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:35:47 where "they" is my publisher, in case that was unclear. 04:36:17 gigamonkey: sounds like they want to do things their way -- one. last. time. 04:37:13 yep. 04:38:25 gigamonkey: you might consider self-publishing one day :-) 04:38:51 p_l: Oh, I'm already considering that. 04:39:45 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:39:48 I think I should do at least one experiment to see how it goes. Certainly on the book production side I don't feel like my publisher adds a lot of value. But I don't really know how much their distribution and marketing is worth. 04:40:04 gigamonkey: I know that programming and Origami aren't exactly alike, but John Montroll has a deal with some publishing company (Dover, iirc) where he publishes himself, but basically gets help from them when he needs, and uses their press. 04:40:50 Well, that's pretty much the deal I have now except without the help. ;-) 04:41:02 patmatch [n=wmbot@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:23 *gigamonkey* is a bit cranky tonight. 04:41:39 heh, you're allowed to be cranky if they're typesetting in Word... 04:42:15 gigamonkey: if you get good enough regarding PDF preparation, you might simply go for distributor and some CTP/press service 04:42:31 CTP? 04:42:54 Adlai: Dover is pretty laid back; they make their money selling obscure out of print books to a long-tail readership 04:43:07 I don't suppose anyone here knows when the next sbcl release is planned for 04:43:13 Computer-to-Plate (or Press/Print, don't remember exact name) 04:43:56 joshe: it's usually around the end of the month...or the beginning of the next...or... 04:44:03 gigamonkey: basically, PS/PDF goes in, plates for printing press go out :-) 04:44:07 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-223-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:29 Which you then send to an actual printer and pay to have X copies printed? 04:44:42 Or are they the printer? 04:44:57 By "printed" I mean printed, bound, etc. 04:45:02 -!- soapstone [n=chatzill@99.130.193.16] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.2/20090729225027]"] 04:45:15 tsuru: yea, this last one was kind of delayed so I was wondering if they were planning on just waiting until the end of august for the next one or what 04:45:19 gigamonkey: send to printer. Most publishers don't have their own press 04:45:55 But the printers don't actually accept the PS/PDF files themselves? That seems weird. 04:46:23 gigamonkey: if they accept PS/PDF, then it means they do CTP or the classic method for you 04:46:42 joshe: well delays to happen... historically they've aimed for the end of the month... testing and developer time can influence that for better or worse 04:46:51 gigamonkey: FWIW I thought PCL was awesome, good luck on this next book even though I probably won't read it :) 04:46:59 I see. So I hire one company to take a PDF and turn it into physical books. And another to take those books and distribute them to booksellers? 04:47:16 joshe: No need to read it; just buy it! ;-) 04:47:28 Thanks, BTW, re. PCL. 04:47:50 gigamonkey: have the cover blurbs already been decided? 04:48:07 gigamonkey: many DTP studios/publishers have either CTP or classical system ready, since they are better equipped to fight with all typesetting stuff 04:48:08 p_l: losing only whatever help I get from a publisher on the front end (small, in my experience) and the marketing on the back end? 04:48:32 I guess I'll just email nikodemus and ask if he thinks he'll get around to looking at my patch before the next release 04:48:39 tsuru: Nope. Though it turns out there isn't a lot of room on the book for blurbs. But I can always use more for the web site. 04:48:45 he seems really busy and I feel bad bugging him though 04:49:13 gigamonkey: I guess so. But I think you could get some publisher to accept a hands-off approach 04:49:47 gigamonkey: they are probably better prepared to deal with all the complexity regarding subcontractors and marketing 04:50:06 p_l: yeah. 04:50:55 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.175.159] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:52:10 joshe: if you submitted it a while ago then it would seem a polite reminder / clarification request to the list might be better than sending a private email... 04:54:12 gigamonkey: on the good news front, I'm taking a break from some busy work to try and figure out lispbox. 04:55:26 Adlai: excellent. I can add you to the Google code project if that makes your life easier in any way. 04:55:53 tsuru: good idea, thank you. I'll do that tomorrow I think 04:57:34 gigamonkey: it might, although I don't have any changes to the project yet. I'll let you know if/when I do. 05:00:31 Is it just me or does CCL's M-. in SLIME (On OS X/PPC, if that matters) majorly lose. 05:00:49 gigamonkey: worksforme, very well actually. 05:00:51 {uname -a} [Linux adlai-t400 2.6.30-ARCH #1 SMP PREEMPT Fri Jul 31 07:30:28 CEST 2009 x86_64 Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU P8600 @ 2.40GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux] 05:01:00 so not quite OS X, though. 05:01:50 Hmmm. It seems to have something to do with having re-compiled individual functions with C-c C-c 05:01:58 gigamonkey: things are much better with the recente ccl and slime 05:02:03 Ah. 05:05:42 Okay. Goodnight all. 05:06:02 BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:02 goodnight gigamonkey 05:06:05 sbcl devs, could you please make it so (debug 0) functions have lambda lists? 05:06:46 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 05:07:28 0? 05:07:52 gigamonkey: sleep well 05:07:53 weirdo: do you mean functions with (declare (optimize (debug 3) ...)) 05:08:06 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-yybybcqjekdkngjt] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:09:38 Why not turn them into a job? 05:09:44 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-lfimepvslmgkpdtg] has joined #lisp 05:17:06 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-191.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Success] 05:17:50 evening 05:18:26 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:09 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 05:19:27 Adlai, no, debug 0 05:20:29 weirdo: that doesn't make sense... for (debug 0), the compiler shouldn't care about how human-friendly the code is. I think that keeping lambda-lists around isn't something the compiler needs to do when you give (debug 0) 05:20:51 but people keep exporting symbols with debug 0 functions assigned to them 05:20:56 and i have to look every time 05:21:40 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:21:51 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:23:57 so complain to the people. There isn't anything under (documentation ' 'function)? 05:27:22 there is documentation 05:27:24 but no lambda list 05:27:41 and sbcl devs sit here 05:27:59 that's cracking me up. someone invented "permutation sort" 05:28:03 http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Permutation_Sort#Common_Lisp 05:28:23 it's the second worst sorting algorithm possible 05:30:23 (the worst possible one is randomly shuffling them until it's sorted) 05:31:26 random shuffling isn't an algorithm since it's not guaranteed to terminate 05:32:08 it is not a *deterministic* algorithm 05:32:44 -!- girzel [n=user@61.51.238.174] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:33:11 it is guaranteed to terminate, given a sane RNG 05:34:53 Um, I suggest that you try proving that. 05:35:17 well, a sane RNG will return any number within its range eventually 05:35:45 And how will that cause a random sorting algorithm to necessarily terminate? 05:35:47 well, given infinite power, no matter decay and no heat death of the universe 05:36:09 Then it's not random though, and it's only O(2^n) in the number of bits in the range, rather than O(n!) in the length of the sequence 05:36:35 To terminate, the random sorting algorithm has to believe that all of its predicates have been satisfied for all pairs. 05:36:56 The particular beliefs that it thinks it has depend on the previous operations it has done. 05:37:06 thank you 05:37:24 There seems to be ample scope for an RNG which generates every possible value not to terminate. 05:38:22 nice channel. every time i say something stupid i'm held accountable and corrected 05:38:23 :) 05:38:49 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 05:39:33 It's not stupid at all, in my opinion. It's probably just that me and Zhivago got called on something like that before :) 05:39:54 permutations are fun 05:40:14 Yeah, totally. 05:40:14 by the way, generic sequences have the potential to break a lot of things 05:40:31 i've written etypecase list/vector so many times... 05:40:46 i could write etypecase list/sequence, but still 05:41:23 gaulin [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 05:41:29 -!- gaulin is now known as CrazyEddy 05:41:30 it could be better if generic sequences were a subtype of a list or a vector 05:49:59 oh my, see this: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_simulation 05:50:06 switching wins. but it's a paradox 05:50:21 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-223-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 05:50:50 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-22-219.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:55:10 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 05:57:49 bytecolor [n=user@32.158.57.59] has joined #lisp 06:03:33 girzel [n=user@61.51.238.174] has joined #lisp 06:06:12 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has joined #lisp 06:06:40 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.246.106] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:07:13 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.139.89] has joined #lisp 06:11:21 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:11:42 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has quit [] 06:12:50 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:14:03 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 06:15:07 hello 06:17:26 alphaeus [n=user@c-76-23-35-28.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:24 alphaeus` [n=user@c-76-23-35-28.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:38 I'm trying to decide whether to read Godel Escher Bach. If you've read it, did you learn new ideas that were actually useful, or is it just entertaining? 06:23:56 Is there a difference? 06:25:46 I don't think everything entertaining is necessarily a useful for something other than entertainment. 06:26:13 ArtVandalae [i=768aa21d@gateway/web/freenode/x-thyyxcgsvbkmrxkg] has joined #lisp 06:26:27 if it were merely useful, i wouldn't have read it 06:26:56 if you detest thinking and abstract things - and you have no imagination, don't read it 06:27:32 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 06:27:40 good morning 06:28:12 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 06:28:38 does weblocks add any debug flags others than hunchentoot's *show-lisp-errors-p* and others? 06:29:11 -!- ArtVandalae [i=768aa21d@gateway/web/freenode/x-thyyxcgsvbkmrxkg] has quit [Client Quit] 06:29:13 can I get hold of the error message of a condition in handler-bind? 06:29:42 of a simple-error 06:29:56 GEB was my introduction, when I was 14 (in 1981), to logic, AI, computer science (and Godel, Escher, and Bach) 06:31:49 logBot3985 [n=logBot@59.92.177.173] has joined #lisp 06:34:08 why, oh why isn't there #'(setf logbitp)? :( 06:34:25 -!- bytecolor [n=user@32.158.57.59] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:34:28 and i can't make one without violating package locks. bummer. 06:35:30 guaqua, there are many things merely entertaining, too, like american television 06:36:06 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:36:43 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:21 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:37:40 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 06:38:16 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-223-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:30 -!- alphaeus [n=user@c-76-23-35-28.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:44:34 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:46:11 housel: GEB is a tome. 06:47:30 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1CE5.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:51:56 ultimately, the goal of intelligent 'life' is fun, anyway :-) 06:52:03 HG` [n=wells@xdslec197.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:54:18 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 06:54:31 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:54:38 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:40 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:54:50 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 06:55:40 good morning 06:55:43 -!- alphaeus` [n=user@c-76-23-35-28.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:56:07 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:56:14 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 06:58:09 benny [n=benny@i577A1724.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:58:52 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:02:01 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:04:00 kami-: princ it 07:04:03 or format ~a 07:10:01 uffff, postgres must be an order of magnitude more complex than mysql 07:17:23 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-lfimepvslmgkpdtg] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:19:27 fusss: why's that? 07:20:17 angerman [n=angerman@a248.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 07:22:47 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:23:48 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 07:25:21 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 07:25:26 the UI interface is just too complex; it exposes a lot of configuration options that just aren't used every luser writing a DB app 07:26:13 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-182-140.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 07:26:19 you can do a lot through the 'mysql' utility; add users, create databases, jump between databases, see tables, etc. 07:26:28 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:26:54 i just fired up the pgAdmin GUI utility and table listing for a database is 5 layers deep! 07:27:33 host->database->Schemas->public->Tables->[specific table] 07:28:17 fusss: that suggests bad GUI design, not anything about postgres. 07:28:32 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:28:40 for the lurking cretins who are the last CLSQL users, like myself, do yourselves a favor and wrap the Elephant API yourself, calling WITH-DATABASE from within each function, instead of opening a persistent connection to the db 07:29:13 Ralith: it's frustrating that I have to restart it after I edit the configuration file and each restart takes a good 5-10 seconds 07:30:01 if you're using postgres, why not use postmodern? 07:30:21 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 07:30:24 clsql-postgresql is broken on Win32, use clsql-postgresql-socket; SSLEAY32.dll is also broken, get an old version from the mingw repo 07:30:46 Ralith: because I am not using *just* postgres 07:31:06 ? 07:31:47 I have session variables stored in an in-memory SQLite for various hunchentoot threads to share 07:32:29 i am probably performing too many contortions here as I insist on developing on Windows 07:32:34 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:32:55 libs that work on Win32 and unix are probably less broken than those that don't. IMHO. 07:34:07 prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:40 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-77.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:34:55 fwiw, along with the website as a service, we have a standalone server for sale, and 50% of the people we spoke with don't know a world outside Windows exists. 07:35:03 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 07:37:34 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:37:57 Ralith: pgadmin3 simply tries to reflect actual structure 07:38:16 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:38:44 p_l: o. 07:38:48 Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has joined #lisp 07:38:49 fusss, yeah clsql sucks 07:39:14 fusss: package it into a VM and sell it like that 07:41:43 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:30 p_l: you kludgist! :-P 07:44:12 fusss: I worked for a company where "app" was bought in the form of few big-ass servers, I'm biased :P 07:44:57 newspapers, universities and hospitals; not exactly the greatest IT infrastructure out there 07:45:11 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:45:12 one paper wants it as a ColdFusion "component" 07:45:20 ouch 07:47:19 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:49:04 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:49:17 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Peace, Love, Linux"] 07:50:01 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:50:06 -!- mvillene1ve is now known as mvilleneuve 07:51:34 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit ["leaving"] 07:51:50 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has quit [] 07:55:13 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dprgybcwmdohqwos] has joined #lisp 07:56:26 ruepel0r [n=rue@77-22-58-33-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:57:01 Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 08:02:26 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:03:51 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:07 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 08:10:04 -!- qebab [i=finnrobi@caracal.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:11:11 Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has joined #lisp 08:12:49 zoldar [n=zoldar@kyh66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 08:14:22 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:21:31 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:22:14 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 08:23:13 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:26:26 qebab [i=finnrobi@caracal.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 08:30:25 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 08:32:37 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 08:40:35 someone said COMPILER-LET could be implemented with MACROLET. how? 08:41:11 oh, i see now 08:41:20 thanks for not laughing 08:41:37 -!- zoldar [n=zoldar@kyh66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:45:19 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-79-52.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 08:48:56 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:52:25 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 08:53:01 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:55:05 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:58:20 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 09:01:56 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:02:41 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:03:47 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.37.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:12:06 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:22:45 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483FBC5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:05 hey weirdo what are you planning? -- lispworks still uses compiler-let in expanding defmethod for example 09:27:22 it's much more convenient than transforming to use macrolets 09:28:18 ilitirit_: see osicat-devel 09:30:32 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:30:58 -!- Gertm [n=Gertm@mail.dzine.be] has quit ["Changing server"] 09:32:41 Gertm [n=Gertm@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 09:33:44 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-191.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:34:45 -!- Gertm [n=Gertm@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Client Quit] 09:35:41 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dprgybcwmdohqwos] has left #lisp 09:35:51 Gertm [n=Gertm@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 09:36:48 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:37:00 ilitirit_, i need compiler-let to communicate between macros 09:37:21 and i got hooked on writing snippets for rosetta code 09:42:53 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:44:23 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:45:35 hi fe[nl]ix thanks! 09:46:22 if i'm using the same arithmetic expression in many places, can sbcl optimize it like gcc does? 09:48:54 clhs disassemble 09:48:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_disass.htm 09:49:26 weirdo, in general gcc is much better at optimizing stuff as you will be able to see from disassembling it 09:49:41 sbcl is generally generates much better code than other lisps though 09:50:59 are you talking about global common subexpression elimination? 09:51:37 yes 09:51:56 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:52:44 i suspect not, but i have no idea whether sbcl does it . . . if you wait a bit someone knowledgeable will come along ;) 09:55:04 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 09:56:12 thatdavidmiller [n=david@87-194-167-91.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:59:24 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:59:30 i hate how so many things introduce nesting 09:59:43 it's very hard to keep it within 80 columns. or for that matter, any number of columns 10:00:19 weirdo: keep in mind that you can break lines when they get too long. 10:00:29 yes but that only takes me so far 10:00:30 weirdo: it's easy if you work with a limit of 400 columns 10:00:31 *Adlai* manages to wrap his stuff in 70 lines, almost always. 10:00:36 even when writing like: (foo 10:00:36 bar 10:00:36 baz) 10:01:19 well i can only pull off 240 10:01:57 buy a bigger monitor 10:02:58 21" is already big and relatively expensive 10:03:16 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:03:17 it's not that bad, i can have 3 windows of 80 columns 10:03:26 IRC, a repl and some code 10:03:55 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:04:03 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-79-52.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:04:10 ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-29-13.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 10:06:12 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229172141.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:06:41 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:09:54 -!- girzel [n=user@61.51.238.174] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:21:54 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 10:21:58 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:22:10 drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-224.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:27:31 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A52C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:34:08 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has joined #lisp 10:37:07 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:37:48 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 10:38:14 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-191.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:42:10 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:43:48 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:46:35 cracki [n=cracki@44-116.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:48:15 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:49:38 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 10:49:58 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [] 10:54:27 -!- meingbg_ [n=user@static-195.84.249.117.addr.tdcsong.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:57:29 -!- xan_ is now known as xan-afk 10:57:38 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:59:42 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 11:03:19 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 11:08:05 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-241-91.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:42 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1724.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:15:49 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:17:38 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:17:46 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:56 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:20:02 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:08 benny [n=benny@i577A1724.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:24:56 virl [n=virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 11:25:07 hi 11:26:55 any ideas when sbcl fails at self testing it's contributes(introspect, posix)? 11:28:36 nikodemus fixed introspect 11:29:02 lisppaste> nikodemus pasted "fix" at 11:29:03 http://paste.lisp.org/display/84865 11:29:03 11:29:06 delicious copypasta 11:29:40 scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has joined #lisp 11:30:43 malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:32:55 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has joined #lisp 11:33:57 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslec197.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 11:36:47 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 11:41:43 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:48:25 frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 11:50:46 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:22 coderdad_ [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:49 hello 11:57:21 -!- coderdad_ [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:58:41 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:59:17 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:00:52 aiee! in slime-repl-mode, pressing & does something weird instead of typing & 12:01:05 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:01:17 I can not remember how to define a global variable that is not special (i.e. dynamically scoped) 12:01:29 slackjaw [n=jolyonw@124-171-248-180.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:01:32 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 12:01:55 both defvar and defparameter define special variable isn't it? 12:02:00 CL does not support that. 12:02:10 how did you get a #channel instead of a ##channel? 12:02:21 frozsyn, if you're using SBCL there's sb-ext:defglobal 12:02:28 SBCL has non-thread globals 12:02:34 like lnostdal said 12:02:36 By not upgrading to ## before lilo died. 12:03:33 lnostdal, Zhivago: ok, so the only CL way is to use a big let-form ? 12:04:10 only way to do what? 12:04:36 have a variable that is somehow global and lexically bound 12:04:45 malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:06:54 global lexical variable? this is not scheme 12:06:59 but what do you need to accomplish? 12:07:05 it is highly possible that you are simply confused 12:07:06 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:09:21 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-250.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:23 frozsyn: do you mean a dynamic variable that's not global? 12:09:25 weirdo, in fact I was looking for special variable and don't need global lexical variable. But i'm surprised that the latter is simply impossible, so i'm interested in the reason and so on... 12:09:33 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [] 12:09:46 Adlai, no, I mean a global varialbe that is not dynamic 12:09:52 maybe a variable defined by a LET-form with (DECLARE SPECIAL)? 12:10:03 minion: logs 12:10:03 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 12:10:05 why is dynamicness such a problem? 12:10:39 oh, for that you'd just have to wrap all your code in a big 'let form. But it doesn't make much sense, because everything would be in the same lexical scope -- so what's the point of using a lexical variable? 12:10:41 weirdo, no sorry, I'm not clear enough, i'm just curious and don't need anything for any particular reason 12:11:32 you can assign it to variable's symbol-value 12:11:34 frozsyn: if you look in the comp.lang.lisp archives there have been discussions of the lack of global lexicals 12:11:40 gigamonkey: I've been working on Lispbox. Progress is slow but steady. 12:11:46 Cool. 12:11:48 or to symbol's propety list 12:11:50 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 12:11:51 *Adlai* has never used GNU make before... 12:12:03 make sucks. everything that's useful is non-portable 12:12:20 or make a symbol-macro 12:12:22 That's why you just bite the bullet and use GNU make. 12:12:45 gigamonkey, cool, I'll drop on eye on them. do you have any starting point you can advise me in the huge mailing list ? 12:12:48 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-40-136.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:12:54 Good afternoon. 12:12:57 frozsyn: google. ;-) 12:13:09 malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:13:11 Hello, beach. 12:13:33 gigamonkey, ok thanks ;) i had nothing to loose asking 12:14:55 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 12:15:33 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-90-175-82.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:15:58 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:17:50 Jasko [n=tjasko@98.235.105.148] has joined #lisp 12:17:53 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.175.159] has joined #lisp 12:18:44 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:24:35 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 12:24:55 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:27:36 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:14 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-16-154.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:31:55 -!- angerman [n=angerman@a248.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 12:32:13 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 12:34:58 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-53-170.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:38:10 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:38:40 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-29-13.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:41:09 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 12:41:28 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:41:48 wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo379064.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:43:55 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:53 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@98.235.105.148] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:47:01 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:52:09 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:52:21 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 12:52:52 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:32 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:54:01 ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-29-13.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:55:14 -!- wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo379064.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1+svn-34672M: SIGINT received; exit"] 12:55:28 wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo379064.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:56:20 -!- wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo379064.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 12:56:24 wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo379064.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:00:37 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-204-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 13:00:39 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 13:00:50 -!- plan9 [n=stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has left #lisp 13:00:56 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:01:48 nun` [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 13:02:17 nick nunb 13:02:20 -!- nun` is now known as nunb 13:02:49 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.41.21] has joined #lisp 13:04:26 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 13:04:55 -!- wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo379064.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1+svn-34672M: SIGINT received; exit"] 13:06:08 ineiros_ [n=ineiros@pc217.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 13:06:55 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:06:55 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 13:08:07 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:08:15 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:28 -!- tapas [n=tapas@affenbande.org] has left #lisp 13:09:30 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 13:13:22 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 13:13:41 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:14:37 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-223-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:16:03 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-223-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:26 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-241-91.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:18:35 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 13:18:51 Good morning all. 13:19:00 good morning TDT 13:20:57 tymmym [n=user@87-119-239-154.saransk.ru] has joined #lisp 13:21:06 angerman [n=angerman@c215.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 13:21:24 hey TDT 13:23:22 zoldar [n=zoldar@kyh66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:27:03 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:27:11 wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo379064.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:29:15 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 13:29:16 -!- zoldar [n=zoldar@kyh66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:29:17 *fusss* wishes to hear from more lispers working on their own startups 13:29:44 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 13:30:17 Own startup businesses, or new lispers working on new projects? 13:30:18 -!- cracki [n=cracki@44-116.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 13:30:25 people doing realtime booking, price comparison, international order fulfillment, etc. 13:30:32 startup businesses, TDT 13:30:40 I feel like we're the only ones 13:31:59 Ah, I see - I wouldn't mind hearing more about it as well. TBH I'd love to start my own business since I have a lot of drive, and would be nice to work from home on this sorta stuff than in a very politically charged environment. 13:32:38 first you get the business, then you write the code 13:32:57 i owned my first Minsk motorbike a while back as hobby 13:33:07 -!- wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo379064.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1+svn-34672M: SIGTERM received; exit"] 13:33:17 wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo379064.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:33:22 tonight i got a contract to sell these: deus.com.au 13:34:02 hand-crafted ad engine for hand-crafted products :-) 13:34:48 -!- wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo379064.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 13:35:08 Coming up with a good idea on what to do for the business is the harder part for myself. Some sort of service, no doubt, would be probably the best - but coming up with that idea is hard :) I wouldn't mind trying some minor web hosting for companies around here, and web development for their randomish web stuff. Don't need a lot of money, for sure, just enough to survive on is really all I would like. 13:35:16 Very pretty. :) 13:35:40 A lot of drive, but no ideas. :) 13:36:18 TDT: if you have the time, write an Asterisk management GUI 13:36:37 ast_gui_client is 8 years old and unmaintained for that long 13:36:43 TDT: my experience with hosting isn't good. /way/ to small margins. 13:36:49 I charged $300/hour just to install it 13:36:51 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-204-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 13:36:54 wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo379064.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:37:03 TDT: Find something that people need but generally don't know about, and then help them acquire it. 13:37:07 go into VOIP and go QUICK 13:37:44 TDT: and yes, i've (and still) use lisp for the web shit. :) 13:38:02 TDT: have you ever seen something that someone did and is making money off of and thought, "I could do better than that"? 13:38:05 clone this in CL and you're looking at 2k/license http://astguiclient.sourceforge.net/ 13:38:40 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:39:02 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has joined #lisp 13:39:04 dlowe: I should spend more time looking at what others are doing - I tend to have my head in the sand when it comes to a lot of stuff. 13:40:37 along with VOIP stuff, I can you clients for a mail server that can deliver 500k messages *per* day 13:40:55 hey, does anyone knows how to disable the mouse in emacs 23 running in X ? (the left-click button especially, it's pretty disturbind when you hit the touchpad by error) 13:40:55 solve SMTP at once 13:41:05 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [] 13:41:06 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:41:07 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-20-43.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:41:10 specially for corporate news letters 13:41:11 TDT: Just the other day I was thinking -- "I'd like to build a boat that I can fit into a backpack -- maybe a coracle would do ..." 13:41:37 VOIP would be interesting, that stuff isn't around here much at all. 13:41:58 TDT: Then I thought "maybe someone has gone and made decent boats that fit into a backpack and will sell me one for money," and amazingly enough someone had and will. 13:42:01 acieroid: I have thinkpads and I disable the touch-pad by default; only the little nipple. it's a desktop issue, not emacs'. 13:42:30 anyway, good nite 13:42:33 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.41.21] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.13/2009073022]"] 13:42:44 yeah, setting up a mass-mailer that doesn't act like spamming app is srs bsns 13:42:46 TDT: It's a small company serving a niche market, but they found a need and are getting paid for it. 13:43:29 TDT: What they're doing isn't very clever, and I could replicate it with a bit of effort, but on the other hand they've put in a lot of trial and error, and it's easier for me to pay them a thousand dollars than to stuff about. 13:43:32 yes fuss, but I need it to surf on the web 13:43:47 TDT: If you want to get into business, I think that you need to think like that. 13:43:52 too late :/ 13:44:12 and who won't tell me that pattern matching isn't write-only code? 13:44:12 http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Pattern_Matching#Tcl 13:44:14 Zhivago: *nod* so basically it sounds like it's helpful just to research - well this sounds a lot like research to a degree..which is kinda their own business as well, to a degree. 13:45:03 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:45:21 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 13:45:28 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 13:45:37 TDT: Another example I liked were these people who started building houses out of cardboard. 13:45:55 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest19993 13:45:59 TDT: Something that most people don't realize they need. 13:46:28 weirdo: wow, TCL changed a lot 13:46:51 it only does that at runtime 13:48:04 Zhivago: *nod* yeah, that's a good idea...a lot of the services on the net that serve really one purpose really well get by quite well..and there's not a lot of competition. 13:48:43 weirdo pasted "prepare to be appalled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84903 13:48:46 girzel [n=user@123.121.195.4] has joined #lisp 13:49:00 anyone has some firefox plugin for paste.lisp.org? 13:50:30 weirdo: needs more parens 13:50:40 or rather: are you implementing toad-case? 13:50:51 toad-case is already implemented 13:50:55 ok, it's bad then 13:50:56 i'm doing some stuff for rosetta code 13:51:05 each clause should have parens around it 13:51:07 but i won't tell you which so you won't beat me to it 13:51:07 weirdo: is that scheme? 13:51:11 no, CL 13:51:18 Ah, never seen the -> operator 13:51:22 voidpointer [i=bd6fd10d@gateway/web/freenode/x-zkotcjhmjtezhfor] has joined #lisp 13:51:26 it's an exported symbol 13:51:34 kpreid, i tried it like this and it looked badly 13:51:49 but this is only the api and it can be changed 13:52:11 why is that no one responded to my cll announcement about toadstool? not even toady himself 13:52:24 i named it in his honor, this bastard prick 13:53:24 hah, could be afk-ness going on ;) I don't know anything about toadstool...really reading this code I'm not sure how it works. 13:53:32 wasabi___ [n=wasabi@nttkyo379064.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:53:42 The -> stuff is tricking me up, after 2 books on lisp, I thought I'd have encountered this already. 13:53:59 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:54:04 anyone can tell me what E is? 13:54:05 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:54:05 case E -> { T R E $x E } 13:54:16 http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Pattern_Matching#Tcl 13:54:23 -!- tymmym [n=user@87-119-239-154.saransk.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:54:32 i don't have a slightest clue what " Tree = E | T " means, i think it's a ctor 13:54:35 but what's E? 13:54:54 typed nil? 13:54:55 a constructor with no data 13:55:06 just like the definition of Color 13:55:17 what does happen on such a ctor? 13:55:34 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:35 think "Boolean = False | True" 13:55:39 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:55:56 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:56:00 i don't know haskellish syntax. could you please tell me in cl means? 13:56:02 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:29 they're singletons, basically, like nil and t 13:57:03 or suppose I had (deftype color () '(member red black)) 13:57:27 -!- wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo379064.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:57:32 (in Haskell itself there is not any distinction between the constructor and the value) 13:57:45 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 13:57:52 thank you 13:57:59 -!- Guest19993 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 13:58:18 so yeah, 'typed nil' is not a bad description when you have one of them together with another 13:58:38 together with another constructor which DOES have data, I mean 13:59:56 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has quit [] 14:01:46 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:02:08 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:05:32 stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:39 TuxPurple_ [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 14:07:42 -!- cp2_ is now known as cp2 14:07:53 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Wasting time elsewhere."] 14:08:04 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:05 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:08:31 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:09:45 -!- TuxPurple_ is now known as TuxPurple 14:12:04 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:12:59 sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:27 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:13:44 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:13:49 http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Pattern_Matching#Common_Lisp 14:14:03 sorry, my browser keeps crashink 14:16:28 seems to have a lot of code, but little actual information on pattern matching 14:17:08 -!- voidpointer [i=bd6fd10d@gateway/web/freenode/x-zkotcjhmjtezhfor] has quit [] 14:17:08 -!- wasabi___ [n=wasabi@nttkyo379064.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1+svn-34672M: SIGTERM received; exit"] 14:17:18 Besides the CL version 'cheats' by using external libraries 14:20:27 -!- Adlai is now known as Adlai-AWAY 14:21:33 it's not cheating 14:21:40 lots of examples use external code 14:21:47 in that case, i guess most languages in that list do no qualify at all, lacking a proper ISO/ANSI standard, right? ;) 14:21:52 that's not alioth shootout with fascist rules 14:21:56 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:13 some laguages have buidt in algebraic pattern matchin and some don't 14:23:30 Lisp doesn't 14:25:01 Beeing the extensibe language you can make them appear to be there. And this in fact one of the great strength's of Lisp.. 14:26:08 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.233.240] has joined #lisp 14:26:15 tcl doesn't have as well 14:26:23 right 14:27:47 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 14:29:32 badkins [n=user@adsl-068-209-204-112.sip.rdu.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:37 if the needed functionality is available with a good extension, why not use it? 14:29:49 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:30:09 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:31:21 By all means use it, but don't expect the perforance to be the same 14:32:02 Athas` [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 14:34:12 wait, what? 14:34:19 why would performance be any different when using libraries? 14:34:34 for the most part, people bitch and whine about /missing/ extensions. now we're arguing that things aren't "built in", yet Common Lisp has way more /standardized/ functionality than most other currently hyped languages... but i guess this is going nowhere. 14:37:24 Depends what you mean by 'buildt in'. Is STL in C++, build't in? 14:38:39 Can you include 'boost' prehaps? 14:38:40 really there's a lot of duplicated effort as well if everything has to be built into the language that you want to use it in. 14:39:21 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:39:30 Don't expect the performance to be the same as what? 14:39:57 ocalm? 14:40:14 for algebraic pattern matching 14:40:14 What is this gibberish? 14:40:40 It is static determination done under compilation 14:40:49 what? 14:40:49 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.175.159] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:40:53 determination? 14:41:20 well meter it then.. 14:41:23 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:41:45 performance is the same 14:42:05 there are some features that aren't portably available, like deriving types in transforms 14:42:17 but that doesn't mean squat 14:42:17 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:42:19 The same as what? 14:42:29 as being the compiler author 14:42:35 -!- angerman [n=angerman@c215.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 14:42:45 Well, that doesn't follow in either direction. 14:42:59 The compiler writer may have some additional non-portable magic. 14:42:59 well, surely, a compiler author is more knowledgeable in the nooks and crannies of a given implementation 14:43:04 TCL is interpreted for example. I doubt very much it has the same performance. 14:43:18 On the other hand, the compiler writer is also more likely to not give a damn about your particular interest. 14:43:23 well, lisp is not only interpreted but also has lists and symbols as the only data types 14:43:48 Why are you idiots talking about the 'performance of languages'? 14:43:56 heh. 14:43:59 Or saying that a language is interpreted? 14:44:07 Stop confusing implementations with specifications. 14:44:28 Zhivago, well, certain languages are designed in such a way that inhibits known optimizations 14:44:52 for instance, scheme doesn't have type declarations and that made it slow until the emergence of whole-program compilers 14:44:59 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.233.240] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:45:01 CL is compiled. At least the spec requires a compiler but not a interpreter. 14:45:13 CL compilation does not mean what you think it means. 14:45:15 TCL behaves semantically as if it was a macro language, too 14:45:28 Zhivago: In all but clisp. 14:45:44 weirdo: So your point is that scheme isn't slowed down by the lack of type declarations. 14:45:53 Zhivago, it was, for a time 14:45:53 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:46:08 No, it bloody well wasn't. The scheme spec didn't change to allow that to happen. 14:46:16 You're confusing implementations with the language again. 14:46:29 it was slow until whole-program compilation was discovered 14:46:31 If you want to talk about implementations then do so. 14:46:39 If you want to talk about specifications, then do so. 14:46:43 Just don't confuse the two. 14:47:41 kmcorbett [n=Keith@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:12 Zhivago: who are you talking to? 14:48:56 Jthing and weirdo. 14:49:04 really? aim-8 lisp was implemented in such a way that referring to a bound variable caused it to be reevaluated, recursively 14:49:21 what is that if not a slow language? 14:49:26 CL is not slow.. 14:49:31 And what does that implementation of aim-8 lisp say about the language aim-8 lisp? 14:49:47 it was the specification that defined it so 14:49:48 Are there no other possible implementations of aim-8 lisp? 14:49:53 Of COURCE it depencds on the implementation. 14:49:59 -!- gulagong [n=gulagong@dslb-088-072-048-054.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:50:04 sorry for the confusion 14:50:05 *p_l* ponders how big of a speedup we could get by making profile-guided, whole-program compilation... 14:50:31 jthing: Then stop talking about it as though it were about the language. 14:50:45 well, that's how JMC specified its behavior in his paper 14:51:00 I wasn't aware that I did. 14:51:57 I did say the having algebraic datatypes buildt in allows opimations that a library don't neccesairly facillitate. 14:52:27 besides, i'm used to thinking of a language as its leading implementation from the times of C and perl programming 14:52:35 angerman [n=angerman@c208.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:52:43 Then fix your defective thinking. 14:52:57 you don't have to be so caustic. it's hard talking to you guys 14:53:05 How you can blame C with its vast number of implementations on that, I do not know. :p 14:53:13 -!- Athas` [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:53:17 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 14:54:01 Zhivago: You seem to be reading a lot of insinuations into my statements tat I never said. 14:54:25 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:29 -!- drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-224.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:54:39 jthing: Incoherence is often like that. 14:54:47 Dodek [n=user@wikipedia/Dodek] has joined #lisp 14:54:59 Yes, you should cool down. 14:56:20 jthing: I am referring to your incoherence, if that was unclear. 14:57:12 jao [n=jao@21.Red-83-43-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:15 and I to yours 14:57:22 no. you should stop making all sorts of more or less arbitrary claims or insinuations. 14:58:26 Befor this turns into a Naggum style debate I thing I will shut up.. Later.. 14:58:56 A wise decision. 14:59:04 erik used to do psychoanalises based upon a bunch of usenet posts 15:02:29 -!- angerman [n=angerman@c208.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 15:03:45 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.207.6] has joined #lisp 15:09:34 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:12:27 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@nttkyo379064.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:12:35 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-223-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:13:16 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:13:52 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:14:19 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:15:00 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:15:40 prxq [n=mommer@f051106101.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:15:48 hi 15:15:57 hello prxq 15:16:21 has anyone here ever used ECL from matlab? 15:16:25 hi beach 15:16:32 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:17:06 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:18:46 is there a way to list the global variable used by a function/lambda ? 15:19:06 frozsyn: no 15:19:38 oh, what a pity... thanks beach 15:20:02 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:20:20 not true, all symbols belong to a package, and you can list and discriminate those symbols 15:20:43 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-140-200.w81-48.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:21:09 jthing, what do you mean by "discriminate" ? 15:21:12 without looking at the code or printing the symbol within the function? not that i know of, but you can probably create macros that saves your code somewhere.. 15:21:18 (lambda (x) (1+ (symbol-value x))). 15:21:32 lukego [n=lukegorr@dhcp-49-76.media.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 15:21:34 jthing: True, you can list all the symbols of your program, and no other global variable can be used by a function, but if you want ONLY the symbols that are also used as global variables in a function, then there is no way to do that. 15:22:01 -!- carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:22:13 carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has joined #lisp 15:22:15 [actually, that's not true, because you could create new symbols on the fly as well] 15:23:59 ok, let me explain why I ask this question and get some feedback on my (maybe bad) way of thinking 15:24:00 Again, not true, global variables are very differnt from lexical variables (which you can't). for-as-package::= var [type-spec] being {each | the} 15:24:00 {symbol | symbols | 15:24:00 present-symbol | present-symbols | 15:24:00 external-symbol | external-symbols} 15:24:00 [{in | of} package] 15:24:14 from loop ANSI spec 15:24:17 jthing: stop that! 15:24:54 jthing: You know very well that frozsyn wanted the global variables of a FUNCTION and not of a package. 15:26:10 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:26:50 I thought he meant USED by a function, not (declare (special *whatever)) 15:26:57 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has joined #lisp 15:27:08 For the moment, each time I used global variable as dynamical variable in a way that I consider clean, it turns out that the purpose is meanly to avoid to put the same argument to many functions, with the same value every where 15:27:40 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:27:46 jthing: Yes, and how is listing all the symbols of a package going to do that? 15:28:08 well consider using defparameter and using packages to limit scope 15:28:25 frozsyn: You should stop worrying about what is "clean" and what isn't. 15:29:09 frozsyn: Essentially you have variables with dynamic scope and lexical scope. You also have cells which can be bound to things (symbols). 15:29:24 so global dynamic variables appear to be a kind of syntaxic sugar to avoid arguments in a set of related function... since we can list arguments, i came up with the question of listing global variable used by a function 15:29:47 frozsyn: Symbol names give you effectively linkage between independent lexical scopes, so that you can share those cells. 15:29:47 jthing: So you gave a solution to a different problem, and in order for it work, you suggest frozsyn uses a different method, so that your solution would work? You should probably take the reste of the day off. 15:30:01 frotzen: Some of those cells are also used by dynamically scoped variables. 15:30:10 frotzen: Does that make sense?' 15:30:39 why? It is probably the right thing to do. If you wan't to debug it. 15:30:54 Ah, incoherence. :) 15:31:36 Zhivago, I'm not sure to understand your point 15:31:54 frozen: Well, the first point is that you don't have global variables. 15:31:59 Me neither 15:32:17 HG` [n=wells@xdsler125.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:32:23 frotzen: You have dynamic variables and lexical variables. 15:32:42 Zhivago, ok, then I meant dynamic variable 15:32:45 frotzen: Dynamic variables are implemented using symbols as linkable memory cells. 15:32:59 he knows this.. 15:33:09 frotzen: You are capable of using symbols as linkable memory cells without using dynamic variables. 15:33:20 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:33:39 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:33:42 ? 15:33:49 I have to learn about linkable memory cells then... I don't know what it is... is it about implementation or semantic ? 15:34:09 frotzen: Symbols are objects with symbol-value and symbol-function slots. 15:34:42 frotzen: You can link to an existing symbol by using its name. Then you can use those slots to store and retrieve values. 15:35:02 ok 15:35:09 frotzen: You wanted to work out what dynamic variables a function uses? 15:35:23 yep 15:35:53 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.207.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:54 frozyn: If you can get people to use your versions of defvar and defparameter then it should be easier. 15:36:02 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:36:06 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.175.159] has joined #lisp 15:36:47 ok, I see, it answers my question then 15:37:04 frozyn: If you can get them to use your version of defun, then you might be able to do a cheap trick with symbol-macrolet. 15:37:08 -!- logBot3985 [n=logBot@59.92.177.173] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:37:12 frozsyn: (break)? 15:37:26 this is clearly compiler dependent 15:37:39 Why is it compiler dependent? 15:38:27 The debugger spec. is left open. 15:38:40 jthing: What are you talking about? 15:38:50 don't worry, my question was only to check a lil thing ;) again, I don't really need anything, I'm just trying to understand the spirit of some lil thing 15:39:58 Please ignore the unplesant personality clash between me and Zhivago 15:40:03 beach: I added a predicate namespace in this lisp to get rid of foo-p and foo? :) 15:40:28 Zhivago: Congratulations! 15:40:43 beach: I called it 'is' -- (is foo x) 15:40:50 TuxPurple_ [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 15:41:00 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:52 and defpredicate? 15:42:00 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:42:07 is there a read syntax for floating point infinity in CL? 15:42:27 Dodek: no 15:42:42 -!- TuxPurple_ is now known as TuxPurple 15:42:57 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-19.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:43:13 oh. are infinities supported at all then? 15:44:04 not in the standard. 15:44:58 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 15:45:03 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.175.159] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:46:50 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 15:47:16 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.175.159] has joined #lisp 15:47:25 It is IEEE 754 compiant 15:47:39 -!- frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:48:00 what is? 15:48:18 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:48:33 floating point arithmetric, I suggest you look it up there 15:48:36 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:49:29 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:49:39 is there a way to check if they're supported? (assuming the implementations support them in standard way) 15:49:57 Dodek: reading manual? 15:50:15 jthing: of CL? that's not true 15:50:29 manual to what, to implementation? 15:50:48 yes, to implementation. 15:50:48 Dodek: right 15:50:56 stassats: what are you talking about? 15:51:09 if so, i was rather asking if there is a standard way for implementation to support them, apart from ansi spec 15:51:35 thanks anyway 15:52:52 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:56 stassats: http://common-lisp.net/project/ieeefp-tests/ 15:54:02 jthing: what do you want to say with this link? 15:55:29 The ANSI standard for Common Lisp specifies that implementations purporting to conform to this IEEE standard should have the :ieee-floating-point keyword on the *features* variable. 15:55:30 have you read the first paragraph? 15:56:14 hi, what does "#+sb-thread" and #-sb-thread 15:56:14 do in this example: http://jsnell.iki.fi/tmp/echo-server.lisp 15:56:34 clhs #+ 15:56:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 15:57:50 dysinger [n=dysinger@200.25.197.105] has joined #lisp 15:58:21 beach: thanks 15:58:32 egn: No problem. 15:59:02 swaqw [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 15:59:26 In SBCL (member :ieee-floating-point *features*) returns t (or acually a list which by generalized boolean is true) 15:59:43 and so do all other lisps 15:59:46 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:00:08 CL's 16:00:36 minion: thwap to jthing 16:00:37 jthing: have a look at thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 16:00:41 CCL> (member :ieee-floating-point *features*) 16:00:45 => NIL 16:00:48 oh well... 16:02:01 well guess the f**ed up 16:04:08 CLISP => NIL 16:04:08 16:05:35 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.175.159] has quit [Success] 16:05:40 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:05:55 stassats: It uses a more generalized floating point provided by GNU multiprecition library 16:06:04 i don't care 16:07:14 of cource you don't. find a fledge in the armor and go for the juggular 16:07:28 that's what I like about you :) 16:10:03 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:12:14 Xach: is it intentional that zpb-ttf returns a zero bounding box from (string-bounding-box " " proportional-font-loader)? 16:12:22 Xach: and how do I query for the size of a space? (: 16:17:12 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:17:51 asksol [n=ask@122.242.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:18:55 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-159-222.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:19:05 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["leaving"] 16:20:47 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:21:18 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A52C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:22:09 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:23:06 -!- carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:23:19 carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has joined #lisp 16:28:45 jordyd [n=jordy@c-76-108-123-3.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:01 Fishy-Work [n=chatzill@l03784.gsfc.nasa.gov] has joined #lisp 16:29:59 a-s [n=user@92.81.62.159] has joined #lisp 16:30:41 milanj [n=milan@93.86.59.164] has joined #lisp 16:32:45 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:25 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:36:06 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-121-77.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:36:58 cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has joined #lisp 16:38:30 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 16:38:58 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest44390 16:41:58 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@200.25.197.105] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:43:36 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-29-13.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:43:44 angerman [n=angerman@host245.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:45:18 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:48:48 jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.165] has joined #lisp 16:49:18 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:51:11 -!- sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 16:51:42 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:56:11 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [] 17:02:17 hrk [n=hrk@acurwa004054.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:03:38 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 17:04:04 antifuchs: yes. and check the advance-width. 17:05:28 Is there a way in Bourdau threads to check wether the underlying Lisp uses green threads ws. OS therads? 17:05:44 (Can't find one.) 17:05:52 -!- hrk [n=hrk@acurwa004054.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 17:06:03 afaik, only CMUCL uses greenthreads still. 17:07:53 What about clisp. (the newest version has threads)? 17:08:21 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:41 i think they use pthreads, but i am not sure. 17:10:42 yes posix, or windows native 17:11:54 hypno: allegro uses non-native threads on unix until 8.2 (which is not out yet) 17:12:28 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:12:57 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:17:31 <``Erik> n/clear 17:18:22 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:24 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has left #lisp 17:19:48 carlocci [n=carlocci@93.37.220.116] has joined #lisp 17:23:17 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:10 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 17:30:22 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 17:31:04 malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:31:50 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 17:35:40 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-24-191.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:38:13 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host245.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 17:41:22 Ok, seems clozure CCl seems the best match for a Cray CX1 running Windows 2008 server HPC 17:41:33 angerman [n=angerman@host230.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:42:27 Though most of the multiprocessing will use Matlab 17:42:29 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:44:38 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:45:15 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:47:10 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:06 -!- karvus [n=thomas@ti511110a080-1456.bb.online.no] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:48:30 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:49:08 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@dhcp-49-76.media.mit.edu] has quit [] 17:49:18 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-20-43.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:49:20 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-hcqsagrmnprkiaxt] has joined #lisp 17:56:06 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:58:13 Good evening. 17:58:25 lukego [n=lukegorr@dhcp-49-76.media.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:59:08 -!- badkins is now known as badkins\away 18:02:34 Xach: it's what I'm using now... I whould also be using the ascent and descent, I guess (: 18:03:22 "should" heh 18:05:33 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 18:05:57 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:08:01 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:11 -!- carlocci [n=carlocci@93.37.220.116] has quit ["You probably offended me"] 18:12:11 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 18:14:12 -!- stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:15:36 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:15:48 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.207.6] has joined #lisp 18:17:03 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:19:58 yo antifuchs, are you going to come to eclm? 18:20:25 haven't decided yet 18:20:28 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:30 but signs point to yes 18:21:00 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:22:26 skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 18:23:46 *tic* would like to, but probably won't. 18:23:48 ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 18:24:51 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:04 antifuchs: I just registered! 18:27:09 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:27:40 -!- badkins\away is now known as badkins 18:28:28 tcr: are you paying for that insanely expensive dinner? 18:28:46 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:30:46 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A52C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:31:37 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 18:32:32 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:44 luis: I didn't want to, but nikodemus and Xof said yesterday it's worth it even though the good will probably suck because most people will stay there 18:32:52 s/good/food/ 18:34:12 -!- Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:34:29 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:59 but, 75 , come on... 18:35:15 I think that's for both dinners, on saturday and sunday 18:35:34 the website doesn't make that clear though 18:36:14 tcr: if it's for both dinners, then the web site doesn't make that clear at all 18:36:50 or.. is it 50 (meeting) + 25 (dinner)? 18:37:03 ah 18:37:05 that would make sense 18:37:11 that would be slightly less outrageous. 18:37:23 then that's an intriguing proposition 18:37:43 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:37:44 *luis* mails Edi 18:40:50 -!- Fishy-Work [n=chatzill@l03784.gsfc.nasa.gov] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.13/2009073022]"] 18:43:19 *luis* hopes it's not too late for getting cheap flights 18:43:27 tcr: where are you staying? 18:43:51 ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.90.175.82] has joined #lisp 18:44:44 -!- swaqw [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has left #lisp 18:46:16 I'm pretty sure it's an additional 75 for one dinner, 150 for both 18:46:34 -!- Guest44390 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 18:48:32 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 18:52:05 carlocci [n=carlocci@93.37.220.116] has joined #lisp 18:52:35 sellout [n=greg@63.118.141.77] has joined #lisp 18:52:43 must be quite a long dinner 18:53:03 whoppix_ [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:55:35 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 18:55:51 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:21 would it break ansi if symbols created weak references and automagically uninterned themselves? 18:56:54 i don't think it would - if a symbol loses all references, no one could compare its identity anymore 18:57:06 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 18:57:09 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:57:17 weirdo: I suspect you are right. 18:57:27 sbcl devs? 18:57:33 it would be a killer feature 18:57:43 really? 18:58:01 READ could be used securely 18:58:09 to read data from a malicious source 18:58:18 well, there's the problem of too much recursion, but still 18:58:30 weirdo: I don't see what difference it would make. 18:58:51 it would change a bit about how i program if i could intern arbitrary things 19:00:15 like, interning words from a dictionary or somesuch 19:00:16 sxhash would break. 19:00:22 Actually, it probably would break it if you use find-symbol etc 19:00:32 i see :| 19:03:52 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:05:47 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:08:43 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:09:39 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 19:10:26 -!- whoppix_ is now known as whoppix 19:13:37 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:14:31 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 19:19:29 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:40 swathanthran [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has joined #lisp 19:25:50 w00t! 19:26:37 swathanthran: new here? 19:26:51 heh 19:27:12 well yeah would be a fulltimer now onwards.. my home is #emacs.. 19:27:36 swathanthran: What brings you to #lisp? 19:27:36 this channel is pretty different from #emacs 19:27:40 for one, it's actually helpful. 19:27:46 hehe 19:28:46 -!- jordyd [n=jordy@c-76-108-123-3.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:28:50 The #emacs one isn't too bad, at least from my experience. 19:29:24 yeah lott better than having no response.. 19:29:57 So you are here to ask questions? 19:30:32 weirdo: why don't you just write a parser/cleaner for your arbitrary input? 19:30:59 weirdo: lisp isn't that hard to parse, and you can filter out any malicious forms, then pass them straight to READ 19:31:09 beach: well.. i am somewhat on the start of my career which i am trying to build entirely on free software.. and more over i dedicated this year for learning stuffs leaving aside the career plans...as i love emacs a lot, just about to take a serious look on lisp.. 19:31:32 i could if it was important for a given project. but if the feature was available, i would find applications for it everywhere 19:31:37 swathanthran: Sounds like a good plan. 19:31:41 yeah writing a reader is trivial 19:31:51 dispatch characters, terminals... 19:31:53 guille_ [n=user@8.Red-79-153-137.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:56 hi 19:32:32 swathanthran, your message was probably cut off at "serious look at lisp" 19:32:38 weirdo: a simple parser that cleans up input sounds like a write-once thing for me, tbh. 19:32:41 hello guille_ 19:32:44 provided you have a well-defined subset of CL that you're willing to read. 19:33:09 humm. strings, lists, symbols-as-strings 19:33:26 weirdo: thought i would add the rest on the next line!:) 19:33:47 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 19:34:37 weirdo: I'm working on an app right now where I'll need to have at least some level of security wrt code that programmers throw on the image, so I'm trying to figure out how to do this properly. 19:34:38 francogrex [n=franco@91.177.25.25] has joined #lisp 19:34:42 i am yet to dive deep into the saying that lisp is generally good for AI, On a similar note, can we say it is any better for speech recognition(which these days is kind of a HMM problem than Nural Networks and ofcourse a lott more multi disciplinary stuff is there)? 19:35:03 sykopomp, make a sandbox. restricting symbols is pretty easy, but limiting memory is harder 19:35:09 sykopomp: oh c'mon, #emacs is not bad 19:35:15 restricting execution time might be hard wrt unwinding 19:35:17 swathanthran: lisp is a useful language. Isn't most AI these days written in C++ anyways? :) 19:35:28 as long as consolers stays in line 19:35:29 Hi all, anyone using cl-pdf can help me with some setup of axis-options? 19:35:34 sykopomp: sorry i have no idea! 19:35:35 unless you will run a full gc after execution time is exceedd 19:35:46 or at least a reference manual for that? 19:35:46 oho consolers rule here too?! 19:35:47 either way, my experiences wrt to lisp + AI is that Lisp is a dirty word in a good chunk of academia after the AI winter. 19:35:55 swathanthran, lisp is good for everything 19:36:01 it might not have good support yet 19:36:04 but lisp is a ball of mud 19:36:05 and academia seems to be systematically trying to eliminate lisp from its curriculum :( 19:36:09 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:36:20 but why so? 19:36:25 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:36:32 swathanthran: the AI winter. A lot of the blame went to lisp, from what I'm told. 19:36:35 lisp can do lazy evaluation, pattern matching, any feature from another language 19:36:36 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.207.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:37:02 weirdo: last time there was a talk about READing in things, the answer was "man up and use the non-interning reader implementation" 19:37:02 because Lisp happened to be the big language AI used. 19:37:12 and since you have macros and EVAL, you can compile other languages to lisp without writing your own compiler 19:37:20 -!- sellout [n=greg@63.118.141.77] has quit [] 19:37:27 hmm.. 19:37:28 mathrick, right 19:37:28 -!- carlocci [n=carlocci@93.37.220.116] has quit ["You probably offended me"] 19:37:56 swathanthran: I think the 'big thing' with lisp is rapid prototyping and language development. 19:38:02 it seems to have those two things down pat. 19:38:03 i laughed my arse off when someone said "lisp can't do pattern matching since CLOS has no unification" 19:38:11 but yeah, sanboxing does come up occasionally, so it'd be good to have some kind of a reference implementation 19:38:20 weirdo: what does that even mean? Unification? 19:38:24 sykopomp: it seems to me that it's more like "Java is forced upon academia" 19:38:30 sykopomp: in the logical sense 19:38:33 unification of terms 19:38:37 see prolog 19:38:41 sykopomp, you have variable x in multiple places so it must mean the same thing 19:38:42 oic 19:38:46 and the groups that really like experimenting play around with their own languages (Haskell?) 19:38:51 for some value of "same" 19:39:03 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229172141.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 19:39:04 p_l: or CL, actually. 19:39:26 Java is the worst thing ever to happen to CS education 19:39:32 currently i am reading k&r on c programming.. should start serious lisp hacking after that.. though i have been doing random hack customizing emacs.. 19:39:35 mathrick: I think it would be very useful for someone with some unix skills to throw together an actual sandbox that a lisp could be run on top of :\ 19:39:37 the main application of a functional language is to write a compiler for itself 19:39:38 :) 19:39:46 *sykopomp* has neither C nor unix skills. 19:39:47 sykopomp: a different sandbox 19:39:54 swathanthran, drop C, you can't write real code in it 19:39:56 in-lisp sandbox, not lisp-in-sandbox 19:40:10 i mean, once you get used to HLLs, it's so tedious you can't stand it 19:40:24 mathrick: my AI professor fondly recalled Lisp, and he did a number on nearly all freshmen by having one of practicals in Prolog ;P 19:40:25 but i used to commit to c projects... had to run gdb, valgrind, etc 19:40:25 weirdo: doesn't mean you shouldn't know how stuff works 19:40:27 mathrick: I think lisp-in-sandbox is probably the easier route. Sandboxing within lisp seems like an epic task. 19:40:33 mathrick, right 19:40:34 and C is a fairly good portable assembly 19:40:50 c might be good for posix compatibility 19:40:55 p_l: prolog is awesome 19:40:59 it is? 19:41:00 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.177.25.25] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:41:02 weirdo: but you know to get your bread and butter from software these days well that too after avoiding serious shits like .NET and bullshits.. 19:41:06 yes 19:41:09 you have to have some stand right.. 19:41:10 i heard the only use for prolog is writing an append function 19:41:22 heh, yes and no 19:41:24 sykopomp: bah, not really. As long as you don't require extreme performance, your 'sandbox' need be only a simple interpreter 19:41:31 you don't use prolog to write actual apps 19:41:41 but you write query-like parts in it 19:41:45 swathanthran: I'd definitely prefer working on .NET than on Java 19:41:55 that's why there are so many prolog-in-lisp implementations around 19:41:58 but i saw paiprolog and it checked the results linearly 19:42:03 and it kept them all in memory 19:42:05 drewc: it could be a compiler, too >_> 19:42:21 weirdo: paiprolog is widely known to be suboptimal 19:42:23 and it was hard to create records programatically, as opposed to hardcoding names and figures 19:42:30 mathrick, what's good, then? 19:42:31 I believe someone maintained a better version at one point 19:42:44 mathrick, and which branches of science benefit from prolog? 19:42:52 weirdo: franz has a cleaned-up version, but their stuff is closed 19:43:00 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.220.116] has joined #lisp 19:43:01 weirdo: AllegroCache uses its own little prolog to make queries to the database. 19:43:04 hmm, wasn't it Xof who did the prolog thing? 19:43:11 weirdo: with inlinable lisp. 19:43:27 closed is... less then suboptimal 19:43:29 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdsler125.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:43:30 closed is pessimum 19:43:48 sykopomp: that's a little harder to do right, depending on the attributes you'd like the sandbox to possess, but yeah, not rocket science... just maybe some compsci :) 19:43:54 weirdo: all things where you have a database of assertions and need to answer questions like "for what X is the following true?" 19:43:55 imperian [i=imperian@41.174.64.65] has joined #lisp 19:43:59 if we had more hands we could redo all commercial apps on bsd license 19:44:05 let capitalism die 19:44:05 does anybody here get their bread and butter from lisp? what kind of stuffs they are working on? 19:44:14 drewc: I'll have to read a bit, then, seeing as my degree is in film :) 19:44:25 weirdo: I have nothing against commercial apps, but ACL licensing is scary 19:44:26 weirdo: nearlly impossible... its almost dead already.. 19:44:35 swathanthran: i do. 19:44:36 what's dead? 19:44:38 I've been planning out the kind of environment I want for that mud engine I'm working on. 19:44:45 swathanthran: I'm trying to, but I can't say I do 19:44:57 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:01 and it does seem like the right route is to give programmers basically a sandboxed lisp to script with. 19:45:08 drewc: w00t! whats the field that you are working on? 19:45:13 swathanthran: right now i've got three contracts on the go.. one is a trading engine, one is online learning software, and one is an insurance claims manager. 19:45:16 mathrick: and you too? 19:45:18 drewc: what do you do? Custom webapps? I seem to remember that from your LoL screencast 19:45:22 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-121-77.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 19:45:27 definitely don't want full lisp available for an environment shared with random volunteers... 19:45:33 swathanthran: webapps 19:46:05 aha! i didn't think it that way.. whats the output in? xml,html stuffs? 19:46:09 mathrick: i do some webapp work, database stuff, lisp-in-general... even had a chance to work with a quantum computer... basically whatever people will pay me for ;) 19:46:14 by the way, I was pointed to RTML last night. Certainly got some laughs out of it. 19:46:15 like cgi it would be? dynamic web pages? 19:46:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTML "Lisp without parens" 19:46:26 sykopomp: I was thinking about doing a sandbox for an IRC bot I'm playing with, and the right way seems to be the non-interning reader + a whitelist of packages allowed 19:46:31 quite literally, it seems. 19:46:43 and then of course defining said packages to import the right symbols 19:46:59 *swathanthran* is yet to open a dictionary on web related stuffs 19:47:00 sykopomp, serializing lambdas with non-null lexenv is kinda' fun 19:47:00 so sorry if i am making a lott of nonsense there.. 19:47:04 mathrick: is there an existing implementation of a non-interning reader? 19:47:24 weirdo: pkhuong wrote something for that. 19:47:29 oh man. Serialization. 19:47:31 common cold? 19:47:33 drewc: well, yes, that was my question. What do people pay you for, and how do you find 'em? :) 19:47:35 yeah. 19:48:18 mathrick: to be honest, they find me... i have not had to actively look for work in years. 19:48:48 mathrick: if you spend long enough doing nothing but lisp, eventually someone will see value in your work and want to pay you for it :) 19:48:51 drewc: can you feel the burn of my envy yet? 19:49:13 mathrick: i started out just doing my normal webapp contracts, but in lisp rather than php/perl/whatever 19:49:14 sure, but doing lisp in the first place is hard 19:49:21 aha 19:49:35 drewc: how did you get started? 19:49:41 mathrick: the simple way do end up working in lisp is this: refuse to do anything else. 19:49:59 I might go down that route when I have my technique down properly with the webapp I'm writing currently 19:50:03 mathrick: given your need to eat and pay rent, you'd be amazed how resourceful you can be :) 19:50:17 mathrick: I was working on an irc bot a while back. It's up and running in #lispgames. The code is pretty terrible and needs a serious rewrite, though. 19:50:31 drewc: yes, I'm currently moving boxes at a warehous for instance :) 19:50:42 mathrick: that's a good start! 19:50:55 and forklifting, though I never get enough of that 19:50:59 *drewc* has moved a lot of boxes in his day 19:51:07 I *love* forklifting 19:51:08 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:51:11 mathrick, I used to do that too. Then I whored out(?) and got a job doing C++. 19:51:13 it's as fun as coding 19:51:13 mathrick: I just do tech support work. Or used to. No job now. 19:51:18 *sykopomp* needs to fix that no-job thing. 19:51:21 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:38 tic: C++ is certainly whoring out, in my book! :) 19:51:53 mathrick: it helps if you can get a few (preferable rich, non-tech savvy) clients that hire you as a "problem solver", be it sysadminning or webwork or whatever. such people rarely put limits to how you solve things, but do expect them to be solved. i've been doing a lot of lispwork that way. :) 19:51:56 pay's OK though, and I absolutely love working at Opera. 19:52:15 hypno: aye, but I need to build a network first 19:52:22 drewc: am out of college..decided i won't do all in free software.. now committed to nothing else but studying. but here i am stranded a bit for the moment, on selecting the stuff i should be working on.. how did you manage when you started your career? 19:52:24 which is why I'm building a product now 19:52:37 s/won't/would only/ 19:52:48 tic: sellout 19:53:14 mathrick: well, creating products are most likely more fun anyway, and possible way more profitable. :) 19:53:17 mathrick, no, I'm Mikael. sellout's over there. *points to the table by the sofa in #lisp* 19:53:25 swathanthran: I want to have my apps open as well, but be aware it's a landmine in commercial activities 19:53:46 landmine in commercial activities? 19:53:48 swathanthran: i took a lot of shitty contracts for little pay, until i had a good resume and a network of contacts. the rest fell into place on its own 19:53:54 I heard that in some jurisdiction the customer having the source available means they get to bear responsibility for it 19:54:07 mathrick: I've figured out a couple of possibilities for being commercial while still keeping source open. 19:54:08 Chowder [n=anonymou@c-98-211-211-147.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:15 oh, that's tricky. Hm. 19:54:18 also, people don't understand how things could be free 19:54:30 so you won't get contracts because your stuff is too cheap 19:54:36 hehehe 19:54:38 support contracts 19:54:55 sykopomp, like what, support? hand-holding? 19:54:56 I think if I were to start a company, I'd have a ransomed source code setup, where once sales hit a certain amount the source code is freed. 19:55:02 sykopomp, crippleware? 19:55:07 sykopomp: my previous workplace (PHP, but an awesome company) was open source with their in-house app 19:55:20 support contracts are the inkjet ink of software 19:55:21 they lost exactly one customer over the years because of that 19:55:32 I'm just starting out with common lisp and I'm on Ubuntu. I'd like to learn but I'm unsure which package to get from the repos. I'm guessing that the GNU CLISP implementation would do. 19:55:43 Chowder: download clbuild and run that. 19:55:44 *TDT* hears the word "PHP" and starts to shake 19:55:44 dcrawford: except that we have to live off something 19:55:49 weirdo: depends on the app. For the most part, my plan is to treat programming as contract work, and get paid for my time writing the program (which is scarce), as opposed to the program itself. 19:55:53 Chowder: don't use the ubuntu packages 19:55:58 and shrinkwrapware is not viable for most people 19:55:58 Chowder, build it from git repos 19:55:59 slime and sbcl 19:56:09 mathrick, yeah, people buying inkjet ink keep the printer companies alive 19:56:11 don't do that, either 19:56:18 minion: tell chowder about clbuild 19:56:19 chowder: please look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 19:56:24 anyways, what dlowe suggested is also an idea I have. 19:56:29 get some code up to attract people 19:56:36 dcrawford: yeah, though they start being nasty. What with encrypted ink in the latest generation 19:56:39 promise the next version once enough people 'donate' 19:56:56 sykopomp: no, no. that's the street performer's protocol. it's a different thing 19:56:56 thanks all, I'll take a look 19:57:01 oic 19:57:10 clbuild doesn't know git? 19:57:17 weirdo: it does 19:57:23 `clbuild check' doesn't mention it 19:57:45 dlowe: this argentinian game developer does something like that, but he also offers extra treats for people who donate more. 19:57:51 is it a big deal to get my packages accepted? 19:57:54 sykopomp: heh. that works too. 19:57:56 dlowe: I dunno about the ransom thing, I'm planning something that'd lead to a consultancy/support thing more than that 19:57:56 i mean, like, for clbuild 19:58:06 dlowe: such as personalized versions of games with the person who donated as the main character. 19:58:11 -!- Tim_Maia is now known as Odim 19:58:13 mathrick: I'd rather not set myself up a reward for making crappy software 19:58:36 dlowe: crappy? It's customisation sir 19:58:41 sykopomp, like crippleware? 19:58:47 oh 19:58:51 weirdo: no. Customized. 19:58:56 I don't like crippleware. 19:58:56 it's not like car tuning companies are there because the stock mercedes cars are crap 19:59:03 A simple guidline to keep in mind is that every single company out there needs an application written for some process or another. 19:59:10 exactly 19:59:13 mathrick: it's not like car tuning companies are going to be making mercedes-like money :D 19:59:31 dlowe: but they do make a living, and sell their products for good money 19:59:39 I don't want to make MSFT-like money either 19:59:43 not interested in that 19:59:47 dlowe: by the way. I downloaded and messed around with the LambdaMOO server last night. That's some neat stuff. 19:59:52 hell, we should just abolish private property and just code what we need to and avoid manufacturing demand 19:59:53 I want a small-medium company that makes me a living 20:00:04 -!- Odim is now known as Energia_Racional 20:00:08 sykopomp: yeah, LambdaMOO has a cool way of doing stuff. 20:00:28 sykopomp: the way to really look at it is to log in and see what others have coded in it 20:00:34 mathrick: bonus question: do you want to work to make money, too? (: 20:00:39 *p_l* would like MSFT-like money. Though I have pretty good ideas what to spend it on :P 20:00:50 dlowe: yeah. I was still surprissed at how easy it was to just get it up and running, too. 20:00:52 on booze! 20:00:56 everything just worked 20:01:03 pot > booze 20:01:04 antifuchs: yes, but I'd like to get wealthy enough to be able to afford skipping that part sometimes :) 20:01:12 sykopomp: smaug is like that too 20:01:19 no consulting company, then (: 20:01:26 howso? 20:01:28 next step is come up with a product and make that excellent 20:01:34 antifuchs: ain't that the truth :) 20:01:43 dlowe: by the way, technical question: do you think having all object properties on a database like couchdb would be too slow for the kind of requirements a MUD has? 20:01:50 because consulting is work that pays only when you work (: 20:01:55 antifuchs: well, the idea is to make an excellent product that can be customised easily 20:01:55 sykopomp: almost nothing on a mud can be too slow 20:02:07 hehe 20:02:11 at first anyway, I'm open to other money-making ideas 20:02:31 shrinkwrap is hard and not the type of software I'm really interested in doing commercially 20:02:34 dlowe: I'm ready to start writing persistent-sheeple, by the way. The code's matured a lot. 20:02:51 sykopomp, what's that? 20:02:56 mathrick: Develop a product for a company that relies on that product to run their business... do it well and you've got a client for the life of that business. 20:03:05 dlowe: so programming this thing -should- be at least similar to programming LambdaMOO, except it'll be like having a bastard child of LambdaMOO and CLOS. 20:03:10 sykopomp: I've been procrastinating on adding combat/damage to my codebase. Everything else is pretty much done. 20:03:12 s/LambdaMOO/MOO 20:03:20 drewc: aye 20:03:22 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:03:27 mathrick: do it really well and that business will grow to the point where you're hiring other developers to work with you. 20:03:28 minion: please tell weirdo about sheeple 20:03:29 weirdo: direct your attention towards sheeple: Sheeple is a Dynamic, CLOS-like, Delegative Prototype-based Object-Oriented Programming Framework (or "POOP Framework") that strives to optimize application flexibility, minimize cost while increasing value, maximize programmer resources, and empower application implementers to better assist them in leveraging modern paradigms in order to proactively achieve next-generation synergy in tomorrow's web 3.0 world. h 20:03:34 drewc, mathrick: yeah, that is a great idea. such work often also generate a steady consulting revenue. 20:04:11 dlowe: that's exciting. When doyou want to get the code live? 20:04:12 sykopomp: i still get a chuckle out of "POOP Framework" :) 20:04:15 hmm lambdamoo is a mud? 20:04:21 mathrick: but be warned: in order to generate enough money "to get a head" with consulting, you'll have to put in extreme work weeks and it will not be worth it, ime. 20:04:29 i'd love to play a VtM mud... or any other game for that matter 20:04:30 weirdo: lambdamoo is a mud as well as a mud server. 20:04:42 drewc: <3 20:04:51 sykopomp: I'd prefer next year, but I'm having to deal with a bunch of rl stuff atm. So I don't know now 20:05:05 dlowe: heh :\ 20:05:18 weirdo: lambdamoo was the first iteration of the kind of mind that brought you second life 20:05:25 pcmoritz [n=pcmoritz@p54AA6A65.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:29 and it's about as entertaining 20:05:35 dlowe: I'm having issues figuring out where the meta level is wrt to programming one of these things live. I should mess around with MOO more to get a better idea... 20:05:36 and used for precisely the same sorts of things 20:06:06 dlowe: Creating games in Skotos is very very similar to the way it's done in MOO 20:06:32 dlowe: so if you take something with LambdaMOO's easy-to-program ability, and only grant that ability to 20:06:32 is lambdamoo even opensource? the page is totally inane, i can't find any content 20:06:38 it looks like it has been made by a five-year-old 20:06:39 a few wizards, then it's very easy to make full-fledged games. 20:06:51 weirdo: it is. It's on sourceforge. 20:06:56 sykopomp: *shrug* Most mud systems are like that. Only the Merc derivatives aren't 20:06:58 weirdo: and you can just download and compile it. 20:07:24 dlowe: afaict, LPC muds involve a lot of init scripts. Not quite the kind of thing MOO does. 20:07:43 oh noes it's not in lisp 20:07:46 not invented here! 20:08:00 hello, i've got a question: are negative numbers in a "by"-clause on a loop allowed (like this: "(loop for c from 55 by -10 do (print c))")? 20:08:04 sykopomp: it's almost precisely the same if you replace object #s with a file hierarchy 20:08:17 in sbcl I get a type error... 20:08:41 dlowe: I don't see how it is, as far as having the same kind of live-editing ease goes. 20:08:51 it's like the difference between coding in C++ and coding in Lisp. 20:09:05 sykopomp: er, no. You can code LPC from within the environment. 20:09:14 ah 20:09:22 it compiles the file when you save it 20:09:36 which modifies the running image 20:09:41 hm 20:09:50 *dlowe* doesn't think you've actually looked. 20:10:03 *sykopomp* hasn't worked with lpc itself. 20:10:05 I have another possible route to "do only Lisp". Which is to find a non-programming work and keep programming as a hobby only 20:10:10 -!- Dodek [n=user@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:10:17 I've only used stuff that wraps it heavily. And even then, I didn't do that much actual coding in skotos. 20:10:20 mathrick: you could program at work and then come home and program? 20:10:33 I wouldn't be sad if that were to happen, I would be happy doing some kind of translation work for example 20:10:41 dlowe: if your body can take it. mine seems to be not handling it very well :( 20:10:43 dlowe: that's actually very hard to do 20:13:21 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 20:16:44 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 20:16:50 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:17:13 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:18:04 -!- badkins [n=user@adsl-068-209-204-112.sip.rdu.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 20:20:14 antifuchs: the ascent and descent of a space? 20:20:21 antifuchs: i don't think that makes sense 20:21:32 -!- Kirklander [n=Kirkland@216.93.247.56] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:02 what's the best way to write a tokenizer? 20:22:19 i'd rather avoid regexes, unless it's a good choice 20:22:37 split-string? 20:23:56 well, for instance there's #\- which serves as both a designator for negative numbers or as a binary operator 20:24:40 weirdo: if recursive descent is not enough, i recommend Pratt Parsing ala Top Down Operator Precendence. 20:25:01 you could do it old school and parse it by character, with LALR and all that. 20:25:17 drewc, this is for simple arithmetic precedence, i use shunting yard algorithm but i need to tokenize first 20:26:35 hmm never thought rosetta code could be so difficult. never had the need to parse infix before... 20:27:18 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:30:18 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:30:34 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 20:31:52 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 20:32:52 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 20:35:06 hrk [n=hrk@acurwa004054.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:36:45 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@77-22-58-33-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:39:53 luis: have you got a reply yet? 20:45:27 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:45:35 -!- swathanthran [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:46:58 Warning: Cannot find a working installation of hg! 20:46:58 "clbuild check" gave back this response. What is hg? 20:47:06 mercurial 20:47:59 speaking of clbuild. My hatred for it is building. 20:48:58 Only packages that I could find that resemble it are: hg-buildpackage - Suite to help with Debian packages in Mercurial archives || hg-load-dirs - Import upstream archives into darcs || hgsvn - Scripts to work locally on Subversion checkouts using Mercurial 20:49:29 Chowder: searching for mercurial? 20:49:43 Chowder: I find it hard to believe that even debian's repos would not have hg somewhere. 20:49:53 Chowder: it's "mercurial" 20:50:17 apt-get install mercurial 20:51:03 has anyone here written any web services in lisp ? 20:51:15 drewc: can we add a release culture to CLtL3? There are some working implementations of it out there. 20:51:37 sykopomp: that is the plan. 20:51:45 drewc: clbuild has a problem installing ROFL :) 20:51:45 cltl3 - is that a joke? 20:51:51 Dawgmatix: no 20:51:57 sykopomp: gah .. what is the issue? 20:52:25 drewc: well, specifically, it has a problem installing md5. There seems to be a server-side problem with the repo: fatal: http://git.b9.com/md5.git/info/refs not found: did you run git update-server-info on the server? 20:52:59 b9.com has been intermittently down ... 20:53:00 sykopomp: that's not a problem with ROFL, it's a problem with md5! 20:53:17 drewc: well, the intent is to install rofl! >_> 20:53:21 sykopomp: is that a fresh clbuild checkout? like from say the last 15 minutes? 20:53:22 it's a related issue <_< 20:53:34 who added the http repos to clbuild ? git:// is a lot better 20:53:35 drewc: yeah, I tried it about 10 minutes ago. 20:53:47 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:53:53 so no web service writers in here ? 20:53:54 :) 20:53:54 fe[nl]ix: except taht KMR's git server is not working 20:54:10 Dawgmatix: define 'web services' 20:54:36 (yes, i've written quite a few applications that deliver their data over the web) 20:54:40 web service - a critter that barks when called via javascript from a browser 20:54:47 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:55:15 Dawgmatix: interesting definition... so then sure, of course, many people have written web services in lisp. 20:55:16 _deepfire pasted "some useful alignment-related tools" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84933 20:55:44 my experience with web services so far has been in the non lisp world - where initially a schema is written from which stubs are generated 20:55:53 and then you fill in your logic in the stubs 20:55:56 drewc: git clone git://git.b9.com/md5 works 20:56:21 fe[nl]ix: odd... then i don't know what's up. 20:56:55 -!- hrk [n=hrk@acurwa004054.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:56:58 so I wanted to know what packages / workflow i have to follow for a toy service that accepts a datetime object and an int and just logs it to a text file 20:57:07 Oh, the docstring is a little confusing.. 20:57:19 (this is just to get my feet wet with the workflow) 20:57:59 minion: tell Dawgmatix about hunchentoot 20:57:59 Dawgmatix: please look at hunchentoot: Hunchentoot is a web server written in Common Lisp and at the same time a toolkit for building dynamic websites. http://www.cliki.net/hunchentoot 20:58:11 okay :) 20:59:05 fe[nl]ix: thanks. changing get_b9_git to use git:// instead of http:// fixed it :) 20:59:19 http://www.cliki.net/web 20:59:48 odd ... i thought the fix was to go the other way... shows what i know. 21:00:14 thanks phad 21:02:41 -!- pcmoritz [n=pcmoritz@p54AA6A65.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:03:34 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:44 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:08:13 any open source projects using the new version of hunchentoot ? 21:11:24 rouslan_ [n=Rouslan@pool-64-222-181-252.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:36 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:15:49 drewc: you have a random 3 hanging out in db-access-object-sql.lisp, fyi. 21:15:53 it's just chillin' in there. 21:18:36 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:10 sykopomp: restrict them in what sense ? 21:19:46 xristos: What exactly are you referring to? Restricting programmers? 21:19:47 assuming there are no malicious intentions and you are trying to keep things from breaking, you could write a dsl 21:19:59 sykopomp: the project you are working on regarding security 21:20:05 xristos: well, the idea is that I would have random volunteers/staffers coding on this thing. 21:20:18 said staffers might not necessarily be malicious -- they might just make a mistake. 21:20:26 and I don't want everything to be going down in flames 21:20:26 yeah thats what i thought 21:20:35 it is for your mud aais it your mud engine ? 21:20:44 yup yup 21:20:50 the non-existent engine, of course :P 21:21:01 i would write a dsl on top of lisp, let them program in that 21:21:05 make it easy for them 21:21:33 that's the plan. The thing is I'll have to actually manually parse all the input and restrict the language to a relatively small subset of CL. 21:23:30 or trust them not to use CL at all, just use your macros and not restrict anything in that sense ;) 21:23:32 danlei`` [n=user@pD9E2F5DD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:42 thats why i mentioned malicious intentions 21:24:01 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:19 -!- kuhzoo is now known as kazoozoo 21:25:21 -!- Adlai-AWAY is now known as Adlai 21:26:23 -!- Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:27:13 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:55 scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-70-51.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:25 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:30:31 sykopomp` [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 21:31:05 xristos: sorry, internet cut off. I didn't get anything from you after "make it easy for them" 21:32:10 Hm. I just /might/ have found a way have Vim call my Lisp functions where it expects Vim! 21:32:36 tic: you were the one working on Limp, right? 21:32:45 how very convenient I start my vacation this weekend. 21:32:47 or maybe not <_< 21:32:48 sykopomp`, yup. 21:32:55 sykopomp: or trust them not to use CL at all, just use your macros and not restrict anything in that sense ;) 21:33:06 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [Client Quit] 21:33:07 sykopomp`, but indeed I'm not very active. Kind-of a dead-end. But with this I might be able to continue do some work on it. 21:33:18 (but I also want to write a Vim front-end to Climacs) 21:33:21 xristos: I don't think I would trust anyone with CL if it's running on my server :| 21:33:41 tic: that would be excellent. 21:33:41 Kirklander [n=Kirkland@174-143-212-242.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:59 I would like to see Climacs/clim listener start being more usable. 21:34:15 somehow, having all errors fall into the slime debugger doesn't seem all that great. 21:34:30 :P 21:34:32 I really haven't used it, so I can't say. 21:34:51 reminds me of linus's quote "back in the old days when real men wrote their own device drivers" :) 21:35:03 sykopomp`: you can use the CLIM Debugger instead! 21:35:47 Athas: and how do I make stuff pop into the CLIM debugger instead of fall all the way through? 21:35:56 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 21:36:03 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:36:29 sykopomp`: (setf *debug-hook* #'clim-debugger:debugger) 21:36:39 Maybe (setf sb-ext:*invoke-debugger-hook* #'clim-debugger:debugger) too. 21:36:44 Mind you, the CLIM debugger is awful. 21:36:50 :| 21:37:27 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has left #lisp 21:37:53 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-20-43.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:39:27 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:39:31 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:39:43 Actually, I thought the CLIM Listener handled errors. 21:39:52 In forms you evaluate, that is. 21:40:29 well, if I run the listener, then run climacs on top of that, things fall down to the emacs debugger... 21:40:43 you mean slime debugger ? 21:40:51 yes. 21:41:14 How do you start Climacs from the Listener? 21:41:39 (bt:make-thread (lambda () (climacs:climacs))) 21:41:41 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD9E2C086.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 21:41:52 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host230.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 21:42:01 Well, if you start a new thread, there's not much to do. 21:42:27 In SBCL, new threads don't inherit the dynamic bindings of their parent (at least they didn't last time I tested). 21:42:37 yeah 21:42:46 spawning it in the same place didn't help, iirc 21:43:06 and I can't actually use the CLIM repl if I don't spawn a thread.. 21:43:24 I'm actually a little unsure as to how one would get a slime-like setup using Climacs, with a repl and all that. 21:43:47 it seems the closest thing is to have the clim listener somewhere, and spawn climacs off that listener. 21:46:00 The best solution would be to not use a REPL (gasp!), but a scratch buffer instead. 21:46:28 does the c in clim stand for C ? ;) 21:46:30 It's not as bad as it sounds, as you can work with literal objects in an Emacs buffer (as long as you don't try to save it). 21:46:47 Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:55 Scratch buffers have nothing to do with C! 21:46:56 Athas: I don't think I like this whole use-scratch-buffer idea very much :\ 21:47:03 minion: what does CLIM stand for? 21:47:04 Cornerer Lyery Issue Monad 21:47:26 Some like it a lot. 21:47:31 minion: what does MINION stand for? 21:47:32 Mislocate Intelligential Neurosurgery Inrush Oxonic Nasoorbital 21:47:35 no wonnder clim is so elusive.It's a monad. 21:47:39 It's easier to edit your previous input too. 21:47:45 *sykopomp* hates his keyboard. 21:48:33 Athas: I am unconvinced at this scratch buffer approach... where's the output go? 21:48:37 the minibuffer? :| 21:49:00 Yes. Or the buffer, if you want to edit or reuse it. 21:49:12 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:17 C-u C-x C-e 21:49:42 Try doing that with the expression (list *standard-input*), then move the result around. 21:50:19 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:30 clim has its own threads abstraction 21:51:04 Yeah, but it's Just Another Portability Wrapper. 21:51:08 It doesn't really do much. 21:51:25 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:54 but you don't need to use BT 21:52:12 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:01 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 21:55:07 @athas - i was just cracking a wisecrack about compiling the buffer being like the compile - run - debug cycle from C 21:55:54 I take sykopomp's silence to be a sign that he's stunned by the magnificence of the Climacs scratch buffer! 21:56:29 *stassats* got frustrated by mcclim and climacs again and goes away 21:56:48 when I have an old clbuild installation and I want to take that and drop it onto another system with a different CL system, what are the steps I need to do, so that it works again? 21:57:05 Athas: I haven't even installed it again on this box yet :P 21:57:47 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:58:45 nuntius [n=nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:47 -!- Energia_Racional is now known as dalton 21:59:29 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:00:08 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@dhcp-49-76.media.mit.edu] has quit [] 22:01:16 lukego [n=lukegorr@dhcp-49-76.media.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 22:02:17 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@dhcp-49-76.media.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 22:04:38 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [No route to host] 22:08:07 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-24-191.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:08:16 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:12:21 -!- prip [n=_prip@host91-125-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:12:42 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:12:45 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:13:19 prip [n=_prip@host91-125-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:14:44 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit ["leaving"] 22:15:09 virl: clbuild installs a bunch of source code. Just make your lisp's asdf search in the new location of clbuild/systems. 22:16:03 I'm new to lisp, how do I do that? 22:17:47 if youre on unix - (pushnew "path to clbuild/systems directory" asdf:*central-registry* :test #'equal) 22:18:13 if youre on windows search for asdf:*central-registry* windows - i believe there are some howto's on google 22:21:13 virl: you can put what Dawgmatix_ said in your lisp's init file 22:21:33 ahh i forgot that important instruction :) 22:21:50 for sbcl - thats .sbclrc, for franz its .clinit.cl 22:22:03 (to be placed in your home directory) 22:22:14 virl: what lisp are you using now? Is the issue that you installed lisp through clbuild? 22:22:20 or did you install it through the OS? 22:22:52 I installed the lisp through clbuild and it's sbcl 22:23:09 on the OS is also sbcl, but an older one. 22:23:17 ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-188-19.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:23:44 and I want that it makes all the stuff new, so that it doesn't land in the debugger. 22:24:49 and I copied the clbuild directory from one machine onto another. 22:25:03 but sadly it doesn't work now. 22:25:08 you probably aren't centralizing fasls, so you might want to go through all the stuff in clbuild/source and delete all .fasl files, if you want to be doublesure 22:25:27 there is a way to centralize fasls ? 22:25:29 minion: pcl 22:25:31 pcl: An error was encountered in lookup: The index 0 is too large.. 22:25:31 yeah 22:25:39 eh? 22:25:43 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:44 is that all? 22:26:31 minion: pcl-book 22:26:31 pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 22:26:53 Dawgmatix_: asdf-binary-locations is what I use. 22:27:09 okay thanks 22:27:27 and after deleting the fasl files, what do I need to do? 22:27:42 while were at handy hacks is there a way to retrieve the previous commands on the sbcl shell (not in slime) 22:28:03 virl: I guess try reloading stuff. Knowing what the error you're given is might've been useful, too :) 22:28:06 virl - just load whatever you were loading 22:28:26 Dawgmatix_: no. 22:28:27 Dawgmatix_: no. Use slime, sb-aclrepl or rlwrap. 22:28:35 Dawgmatix_: give 'rlwrap sbcl'a try 22:28:44 okay :) 22:29:05 sweet, these minor things really slow me down otherwise 22:29:44 Dawgmatix_: you're using raw sbcl? :| 22:29:45 ok, that worked. phew.. 22:30:15 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:30:23 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-70-51.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:30:25 syko just for now for compiling cffi-clutter, if i try to load it in slime my slime connection dies 22:30:27 -!- dalton is now known as KernnelPanicc 22:30:38 ah 22:30:40 strange 22:30:51 fasl files, they seem to be a pain in the ass.. 22:30:54 its the part where compiling grovel.c fails ... 22:31:06 what exactly do they represent btw.? 22:31:17 theyre the compiled 'objects' 22:31:40 virl: foo.lisp can be compiled to foo.fasl for fast loading (that's what fasl stands for) 22:31:45 (i borrow object from the gcc world where the .o files are called objects) 22:32:01 objects in a high-level bullshit sense or in a program code sense? 22:32:21 Xach: not the ascent/descent of a space, but of a line as a whole 22:32:28 program code 22:32:29 virl: they're compiled files. 22:32:33 Xach: clim is strange in its expectations of an interface 22:32:38 is that somehow standardised ? 22:32:42 no 22:32:47 it's implementation-dependent. 22:33:09 thats one thing c got right :) 22:33:12 I don't know if the hyperspec even mentions compiling to .fasl, actually... 22:33:28 Dawgmatix_: and what is that? 22:33:33 -!- guille_ [n=user@8.Red-79-153-137.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:33:34 Dawgmatix_: considering lisp doesn't have to be a compiled language... 22:33:47 sykopomp: compilation is standardised. 22:34:01 just the convenience of having .o files which can be used across vendor implementations 22:34:05 what is actually real use now? what is real lisp at the moment, when the spec is from the times of lisp machines? 22:34:22 pkhuong: how standardised is it? I know there's a compilation step, but that doesn't always have to happen, right? 22:34:32 Dawgmatix_: I have yet to see .o files that you can really reuse between implementations :P 22:34:38 :) 22:34:45 I know implementations can be compiled-everything. Can they be interpreted-everything, too? 22:34:59 p_l - ive seen gcc and the sun compiler play with each other fairly well 22:35:05 sykopomp: they can be 22:35:12 sykopomp: they must still perform minimal compilation when asked to. 22:35:18 atleast on linux .o files are ELF object files. 22:35:21 Dawgmatix_: Sun invested a lot of time to make it work 22:35:23 pkhuong: I see. 22:35:30 i see :) 22:35:35 Dawgmatix_: that's not the language. 22:35:37 so there can't actually be a fully-interpreted lisp? 22:35:43 hm 22:35:46 and that's a documented format. something I don't see with fasl's 22:35:48 sykopomp: you can have a fully interpreted lisp but not a fully interpreted common lisp :) 22:35:49 yes its an environmental issue 22:35:55 virl: they just cache compiled code 22:36:00 so you don't have to recompile every time 22:36:02 virl: it might be ELF, but there are various things that might be loaded from compiler-specific libraries 22:36:16 slava: same thing! There is no Lisp other than Common Lisp, after all. 22:36:30 ;) 22:36:34 sykopomp: there's Arc. 22:36:36 *Adlai* ducks. 22:36:44 Adlai: Arc isn't lisp. Neither is scheme (of course) 22:37:09 is arc now at a useable level? 22:37:24 or still condensed hot air of paul graham? 22:37:29 virl: arc 2.0 has been released. Codename Clojure. 22:37:47 lots of new features, extra hot air, and they bumped up the hype to 11. 22:38:06 i didnt know arc and clojure were related 22:38:09 pkhuong: thanks. 22:38:16 Dawgmatix_: they're not. 22:38:21 they're not 22:38:21 Dawgmatix_: they are not 22:38:24 virl: depends on your definition of "usable", but for most definitions, no. Wait 100 years :) 22:38:24 I'm joking. 22:38:25 :\ 22:38:29 :) 22:38:29 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:38:42 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 22:38:48 *sykopomp* is implying that clojure is the next arc. 22:38:57 In a good way or a bad way? 22:39:10 it's a jab. 22:39:14 in 100 years the machines will be learning how to program us ;) 22:39:36 sykopomp: clojure is actually usable for -stuff-, unlike Arc 22:39:37 sykopomp: clojure is much more interesting and useful than arc. 22:39:38 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:39:57 Dawgmatix_, when lisp dies, that wont happen.... 22:40:20 pkhuong, Adlai: Arc is perfectly usable! Look at hackernews. Real Software :) 22:40:28 the ideas of lisp have already spread far and wide :P 22:40:33 does hacker news still have to be restarted every night because of a memory leak? 22:40:44 *sykopomp* titters. 22:41:00 I heard that the entire post/comment/user database is one big s-expression that the program loads from a file on startup, and writes out to disk every n minutes 22:41:17 I haven't botehred looking at news.arc to figure out of its true 22:41:26 Dawgmatix_, self modifieable code without that handy tree structure? 22:41:27 slava: sounds like lisppaste. 22:41:29 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:41:38 ive seen production systems where restarting every night is an acceptable feature :) 22:41:38 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.59.164] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:41:45 slava: clearly, it would be much better if they dumped an entire lisp image every n minutes. 22:41:52 pkhuong: both are roughly on the same level of sophistication, yes. the problem is that news.arc is arc's flagship program :-) 22:42:08 slava: what's clojure's flagship program?... 22:42:11 :| 22:42:25 slava: probably true. Arc converts hashtables to alists to write them to files. 22:42:39 Adlai: arc doesn't have a nice reader syntax for hashes? tsk tsk 22:42:47 memory leak I thought garbage collection makes no memory leaks... 22:42:50 slava: I thought it did... 22:42:51 slava: yes, but it's essentially alists. 22:42:56 what is arc compiling down to ? 22:43:00 PLT scheme 22:43:04 Dawgmatix_: Mzscheme 22:43:04 Dawgmatix_: arc runs on PLT 22:43:06 i see :) 22:43:24 PLT is an awesome system 22:43:24 *Adlai* was really excited, reading about Arc, until he noticed it ran on Scheme. 22:43:40 Adlai: don't knock PLT. PLT is a fine scheme. 22:43:50 *Adlai* isn't knocking PLT. 22:43:55 its kind of slow and overengineered 22:43:59 the gui toolkit is part of the vm 22:44:00 etc 22:44:07 slava: yikes. 22:44:09 yes, but they have awesome docs :) 22:44:20 yeah, they have good docs and a lot of libraries, can't fault them for that 22:44:24 scheme's don't have loops - the must be knocked 22:44:27 slava: hey, it seems like there's gonna be a factor talk at the next twin cities lisp meeting. 22:44:37 slava: it's unfortunate it's going to happen a week before I come back. :( 22:44:53 sykopomp: yeah, the guy who's giving the talk has been contributing for 4 years now 22:44:57 virl: actually, Schemes do have loops, they're just written in a less (or according to schemers, more) intuitive way. 22:44:58 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 22:45:03 Part of the VM? What do you mean by that, slava? 22:45:06 slava: darn. 22:45:20 Riastradh: isn't the executable linked with their weirdo wxWindows fork? 22:45:21 Riastradh: I assume he means that it's not a loadable module. 22:45:30 is slava the slava pestov ? 22:45:34 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:45:40 slava: looking back on your decision to use opengl for factor environment, would you say it was a mistake ? 22:45:42 slava, linked, sure -- in order to call it. 22:45:49 like did you have any major problems/issues 22:45:51 It doesn't run as a separate process or anything. 22:45:55 xristos: the major problem has been with x11 22:46:17 xristos: I certainly didn't anticipate that x11 had so many issues with opengl, from some distros not enabling gl by default (not even software rendering) to buggy drivers for ati cards etc 22:46:35 slava: would you still recommend FUEL, btw? 22:46:38 atis much better now than they used to be 22:46:54 xristos: but once you wrap all the low level bits its a decent way to output graphics on mac and windows 22:47:05 xristos: and linux, with nvidia drivers at least 22:47:20 ok thats good to hear 22:47:25 Dawgmatix_: at some point, if more than one window attempted to use glx, the texture unit state would get corrupted randomly 22:47:38 xristos: you were working on that ogl lisp environment, weren't you? 22:47:46 i still am 22:47:47 *sykopomp* needs to keep better track of names->projectts 22:47:51 wonderful :D 22:47:57 its not an environment really 22:48:01 more like a repl 22:48:04 xristos: I already use core graphics (on mac), and cairo on x11 for some things 22:48:09 xristos: over time I might move away from opengl 22:48:15 or only use it on platforms where it works well 22:48:22 for 2d graphics there are other choices 22:48:27 slava: just tried it, it works now 22:48:49 with ~700 fps on the two windows 22:49:17 glxgears? that doesnt use any fancy gl features 22:49:27 -!- ineiros_ [n=ineiros@pc217.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:49:28 fgl_glxgears 22:49:28 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:49:30 do the ati drivers support opengl 2.0 yet? 22:49:37 that uses the pbuffer extension 22:49:42 ineiros_ [n=ineiros@pc217.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 22:49:47 hehe slava - they support 3.1 :) 22:49:52 good 22:50:11 intels the opengl laggard now :) 22:50:16 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483FBC5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:50:22 yup 22:50:30 xristos: http://docs.factorcode.org/content/article-gpu-summary.html 22:51:24 Taggnostr2 [n=x@dyn57-55.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 22:51:30 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@dyn57-55.yok.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:54:36 coderdad [n=coderdad@wsip-70-184-159-102.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:05 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-250.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:55:29 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:21 slava: fuel. Good/bad? 22:57:07 i assume its good if you use emacs 22:57:38 don't think there is anything else for emacs<->factor 22:58:00 I keep taking baby steps towards learning factor. I need to motivate myself to just dive into it for a week. 23:00:15 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A52C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:01:25 -!- KernnelPanicc is now known as BoloFecal 23:02:46 anyone know how to get a list of a class's accessors? 23:03:20 It seems :accessor xxx does not create xxx readers and writers for a particular slot 23:03:42 -!- Chowder [n=anonymou@c-98-211-211-147.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:06:47 gonzojive1: Not sure why it wouldn't happen. You can try inspecting the generic function in emacs. 23:06:54 s/emacs/slime/ 23:07:11 gonzojive1: it's possible that you're overriding the method somewhere 23:07:27 gonzojive1: you might also want to post the code. 23:07:50 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-55.yok.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:08:38 sykopomp: you can ask such questions in #concatenative 23:09:07 slava: good plan :) 23:09:54 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 23:11:48 sellout [n=greg@64.206.165.231] has joined #lisp 23:14:43 -!- BoloFecal is now known as Fixedsys 23:15:32 how are the opengl bindings for common lisp? 23:16:04 are they "nice and cool" or are they in the guter? 23:18:46 somewhere in between 23:18:48 :) 23:19:02 the post 2.0 support is iffy 23:19:24 if youre not using vbo's etc and are just using display lists you should be fine 23:19:33 (this information is about 4-5 months old) 23:21:21 seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:23:14 I think _3b is working (or meaning to work) on 3.2 support. 23:23:26 !! 23:23:27 and my experience with cl-opengl is very good. 23:24:11 I don't know if _3b's patches to support ogl3/3.1 are merged into the main branch. It's been a while since I used cl-ogl, too. 23:25:41 virl: they work for me 23:26:00 latest darcs also supports glut framework on osx 23:26:16 so you don't have to use x11 23:26:54 i dont know about now, but when i tried glut didnt play well with the repl 23:27:04 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 23:27:13 and when you wanna write demos or games which bindings would you use? 23:27:16 on osx ? 23:27:21 on linux 23:27:25 or windows 23:27:35 if you redefined the display function while a window was updating (on an ati card on linux amd64) the program would crash 23:27:42 better something which works on both 23:27:57 virl: you can load swank and connect from the repl 23:28:07 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:28:19 nah... that's cheating. 23:28:50 either that or run the glut event loop on another thread 23:29:00 and I thought about writing a demo for a party. so something which can be compiled to a file and be fine. 23:29:05 this works on osx by default now 23:29:15 so slime works fine 23:29:54 -!- prip [n=_prip@host91-125-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:29:59 btw. 25 MB is big for save-out of a core image/exe, how do you get that files smaller? 23:30:16 prip [n=_prip@host91-125-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:30:19 it's insanely big. 23:30:27 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 23:30:29 virl: because it contains the whole compiler system 23:31:26 how small can those file get, without doing some weird magic? 23:31:36 virl - you can write a shell script to load your demo. this way you dont have to have the compiler built into all of your executables 23:31:47 (with two - five commands) 23:32:00 virl: one method is simply compressing them (they better be uncompressed for actual run, due to memory mapping) 23:32:30 that's the standard. 23:33:04 the rest, I guess, depends on implementation 23:33:13 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:34:05 so then, which implementation allows much more control over that low level behaviour? 23:35:13 if youre starting i would suggest you stick to sbcl :) 23:35:39 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:35:53 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:36:00 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:53 virl: unless you want to distribute really tiny executables, compressed (ie: upx) executables should be manageable 23:37:38 besides - in another world if a c library wasnt already installed on the machine, you would have to ship it along with every program you created :) 23:38:02 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 23:38:28 is there a time library in lisp that handles timezones ? 23:39:45 there is local-time 23:40:14 when in doubt, check cliki/cl-user.net 23:40:17 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:27 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Client Quit] 23:41:02 :) thanks 23:41:03 okay 23:41:17 on cliki its hard to tell which is the best version 23:41:41 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-19.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:41:49 eg ive never been able to tell which is the definitive cairo wrapper for lisp :) 23:42:08 'best' is subjective 23:42:14 try them all, see what suits you 23:42:25 good night, I'm lurking know. 23:42:42 hehe xristos :) 23:43:34 antifuchs: normally that would be independent of the contents of a line 23:48:18 virl: you can always try "manual" tree-shaking, like removing components you are pretty sure you don't call at all 23:48:36 I'm pretty sure virl is just a big troll 23:48:50 he's been looking for the 'perfect' language implementation in #lisp and #forth for years now without sucecss :) 23:53:12 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:54:28 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 23:54:57 upx --best gets the executable size to 8mb from 30 here 23:56:49 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 23:59:24 woot - localtime works seamlessly with postmodern