00:00:13 i hate using stuff like ^ in symbol names 00:00:19 even worse since it gets interned implicitly (!) 00:00:57 it's like DEFSTRUCT, only made way, way worse 00:01:23 I'd like to define a macro, let's call it (with-each-line), which I'd like to call as (with-each-line (line) (do-something-to line)) or (with-each-line (line *some-stream*) (do-something-to line)); how can I do that? 00:01:28 weirdo: "interned implicitly"? don't all symbols get interned? 00:02:04 there are uninterned symbols too. but i mean a different thing 00:02:07 Adlai: weirdo probably meant that naming scheme is somehow enforced by the library 00:02:12 (not the workings of the macro, but the argument list; can I do what I meant?) 00:02:24 foo:bar doesn't get interned 00:03:07 it's customary for macros to only use symbols passed to it, not do something like (intern (concatenate 'string (string symbol-passed-to-me) "-P") (symbol-package symbol-passed-to-me)) 00:03:07 Tordek: what do you want that macro to do exactly? 00:03:26 weirdo: ah, I see. 00:03:41 loop over each line of a stream, processing it as appropiate, Adlai 00:03:53 DEFSTRUCT, a standard CL macro, breaks this assumption. but it does it way less brutally 00:04:04 Tordek: well, what's the problem? (defmacro ((line &optional stream) &body body) ...) 00:04:09 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-177.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:04:10 in cells, i create a sot named foo and then it makes a macro called ^FOO by its own (!) 00:04:24 s/sot/slot 00:04:28 stassats: No problem, just wondering if what I wanted to do was possible/easy 00:04:32 thanks a lot :) 00:04:34 weirdo: well, you have to excuse kenny, he IS a weirdo 00:04:36 I was going to wonder how much FOO drank... 00:05:21 hmm but you can skip cells if you don't mind stuff computing every time 00:05:43 like, make functions instead of cells, only make sots what would be C-IN 00:05:52 slots 00:06:19 A guy I met on another channel is going crazy trying to implement FRP in Haskell :D 00:06:34 FRP? 00:06:35 functional reactive programming? 00:06:39 hmm 00:06:42 Fantasy Role Play? 00:06:45 :D 00:06:49 *hefner* kinda thought Haskellers invented FRP, or at least were the ones publishing about it lately 00:07:27 hefner: there's a lot of activity regarding FRP in Haskell 00:08:07 the problems are when with rather simple code you get thousand threads :D 00:08:51 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:06 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.211] has joined #lisp 00:09:24 hmm someone ever made a webapp library that makes web programming bearable? 00:10:17 no 00:10:18 a library which finds a web-programmer? 00:10:30 -!- seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 00:10:30 web programmers live miserable lives 00:11:18 yeah, miserable lives 00:11:44 With miserable technologies. 00:11:46 reactive programming and STM go nice together, p_l 00:12:00 And a clueless audience. 00:12:07 Could it be worse? 00:12:18 it's worse getting paid to do webapps 00:12:34 because you could make a spartan page for yourself, but morons expect flashy colors, flashy javascript, flashy everything 00:12:38 it's a disaster 00:12:45 why can't they separate data from presentation? 00:12:55 In essence it doesn't really matter; you're screwed either way :). 00:13:11 and for webapps, why can't make something that holds a persistent connection to a remote server with the ability to draw rectangles? 00:13:22 just like X11 00:13:25 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:13:45 instead people have to mess with something as retarded as incompatible javascript implementations 00:13:47 ... Not that X11 is that great either... 00:13:53 I'm not sure X protocol is something we should be proud of. 00:14:06 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:14:10 not just the protocol, but the architecture 00:14:12 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:12 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:12 -!- michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:12 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:12 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:12 -!- easyE [i=[XEYHAIZ@panix3.panix.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:12 -!- maxote [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:12 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:12 -!- housel [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:12 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:12 -!- luis [n=user@r42.eu] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:12 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:12 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:14:15 Still, it has stayed. For non-technical reasons, unfortunately. 00:14:16 luis [n=user@r42.eu] has joined #lisp 00:14:31 'night. 00:14:32 not just the protocol, the architecture too 00:14:44 like, doing it in userland with copyouts... 00:14:51 copyins i mean 00:14:55 p_l, http://pastebin.org/6566 .. just a single thread; and i force the rollback wrt. the transaction there 00:15:06 is there some function that does the translation of common lisp symbols to languages like JavaScript. In particular, I'm looking for something that will translate 'foo-bar to "fooBar". If there isn't something, I can build an ad-hoc implementation :) 00:15:12 i wonder how slow glx would be if it passed through the X daemon 00:15:19 X11 is damn slow over network 00:15:20 glx is just a hack 00:15:27 it is. even slower than vnc 00:15:29 stassats: nxserver is better 00:15:32 In CLX, GLX is certainly a hack. 00:15:44 p_l, ok, unicode and that site is no go .. *sigh* .. http://paste.lisp.org/display/84787 00:15:54 minion: parenscript? 00:15:57 parenscript: Parenscript is a translator from a small Lispy language to JavaScript. http://www.cliki.net/parenscript 00:16:11 hmm i once used clx with stumpwm 00:16:25 Of course, back when, GLX was acutally intended for networked devices, which had to have sucked. 00:16:26 stassats: I know parenscript (and am using it). I was hoping there'd be a separate library for the translation, as it is rather common 00:16:29 and it crashed upon running a specific windows application 00:17:02 javascript is nice as a language 00:17:09 weirdo: you could write your browser rectangle-drawer with javascript and HTTP push :) 00:17:12 it's just like scheme without ``define-syntax'' 00:18:16 weirdo: I've been toying with javascript firefox and XUL today :) 00:18:16 but why is it so hard to implement right? 00:18:52 rsynnott, what works with PUSH? fastcgi probably doesn't, how about hunchentoot? 00:18:54 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:54 easyE [i=[XEYHAIZ@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 00:18:54 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:18:54 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 00:18:54 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:54 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 00:18:54 housel [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 00:18:54 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:54 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:54 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:54 maxote [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 00:18:54 michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #lisp 00:18:55 lnostdal: looks just like what I wished for few days ago, looking at some "understandable" cells examples :D 00:18:55 -!- maxote [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 00:18:55 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 00:18:55 p_l, :) .. some more here; http://paste.lisp.org/display/82845#6 .. with an "observer" (ui-update) at #7 00:18:55 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 00:18:55 p_l: haskell FPR implementation tend to have deep philosophical issues lispers wouldn't even think about. 00:18:58 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:05 weirdo: no 00:19:13 (I'e 00:19:16 oops 00:19:21 maxote [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 00:19:23 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 00:19:26 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 00:19:32 pkhuong: heh, like what? 00:19:34 it would be nice if we had better API for drawing instead of HTML and consistent Javascript implementation... then just use it like more intelligent version of NeWS 00:19:39 and it will continue to get more miserable until the whole thing implodes! 00:19:54 I've found that the best solution is, if you must do HTTP push/Comet, use an existing implementation of comet (jetty cometd or the erlang one) as a proxy 00:19:56 and drop XML 00:20:23 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:20:25 what's FPR ? 00:20:41 fe[nl]ix: a typo for FRP. 00:21:25 luis: browse planet haskell's archives from a couple months ago? I think you want luke palmer's and conal's blogs. 00:21:42 lnostdal: is there API for explicit transactions? For example, I might want to put an "observer barrier", do all the changes etc. then let observers run, without disrupting code in other threads 00:23:15 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-45-49.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:23:36 p_l, not sure i understand .. there is when-commit (for side-effects; i/o, ui-updates ..etc.) 00:23:38 sometimes I forget how uncommonly on-topic Planet Lisp is. kudos to Xach. 00:24:43 lnostdal: for example I might have one thread working on network connectivity with remote server and another doing UI and other doing worker-stuff 00:25:09 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:25:28 I'd like to make updates to data en-masse then let them propagate (sorry for my bad description) 00:25:47 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:48 luis: it is on topic, just not directly applied... I wouldn't be surprised if their headaches pay off in yielding a simpler to use/understand system 2 years down the road. 00:26:23 Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:53 pkhuong: oh, I wasn't talking about FRP. 00:27:17 ah, right, the snr on planet haskell isn't always too hot. 00:27:26 -!- Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:28:35 p_l, i'm still not following .. with-sync has dynamic scope, so i just wrap an entire worker thread "session" in a transaction and let it make the changes it wants to .. propagations, side-effects and everything 00:28:56 so I get a CORRUPTION WARNING from SBCL. Nor gdb nor LDB give me backtraces. How can I debug such a situation? 00:29:16 lnostdal: I guess that solves my question. Where's the repo so I can make use of it? :D 00:29:24 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:49 luis: heap corruption warnings are after the fact, anyway. Look for unsafe/alien accesses to the heap. 00:29:53 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:31:00 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:31:11 p_l, i link to git repos from nostdal.org .. i have no idea if this works for anyone else than me though (i have probably forgotten to check in files etc. .. heh) and it's messy and experimental 00:31:18 how do i read FORMAT specs in clhs? 00:31:21 Also consider if you're doing anything involving asynchronous events such as signal handling / with-timeout, etc. 00:31:34 it doesn't tell me how to pass given options to directives 00:31:50 it /seems/ incomplete 00:31:53 I'm mutilating gencgc.c, I deserve what I'm getting. :) 00:32:22 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.75.244] has quit ["leaving"] 00:32:38 luis: ah, yeah... Have you tried enabling the gc sanity checks? 00:32:53 good idea 00:33:14 I fixed the RESCAN_CHECK that has been very helpful. 00:33:23 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 00:33:28 I'm sure you're aware some of them don't even work on the current code (: 00:33:52 I suspected as much. 00:34:31 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:35:03 -!- danlei`` [n=user@pD9E2C390.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:35:44 lnostdal: I'll be blunt: Couldn't you make that page *without* loading that text with JS? xD 00:37:25 Make those search engines work for their indexes. :) 00:37:26 p_l, sure, and "hello world" in lisp is 24MB .. (i.e., i don't care) :) 00:37:44 (my only goal is web-applications for people who already wants said web-application .. businesses etc.) 00:38:09 don't care about seo either .. if i did i'd add a back door (as one must mostly anyway..) 00:38:57 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-48-237.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:39:26 once it's loaded it's fast enough anyway; http://sw.nostdal.org/text-input .. i'm happy with it, and my few users are too .. (this is an adsl home line btw.) 00:40:54 lnostdal: I meant that this page definitely didn't need the whole treatment 00:41:12 wow, unicode in source code, ballsy 00:41:36 weirdo: I once experimented with kanji in sourcecode 00:41:48 as symbol names :D 00:41:57 more unicode... 00:42:09 wow, what keyboard are you using, lnostdal? 00:42:23 or did you just bind some sequences in emacs? 00:42:47 weirdo, dvorak with some customizations .. shift-capslock is  00:42:58 p_l, i once pasted "neko" in kanji and it worked well 00:43:59 lnostdal: pity that this code breaks portability, though 00:44:21 otoh, most CL implementations should have lambda char 00:44:24 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:44:55 lnostdal: I see you're running a version of SBCL that can print vigintillions :) 00:45:05 p_l: lambda ftw 00:45:08 i thought most supported unicode? .. if i where to release this i'd probably not use special unicode characters .. heh 00:45:32 p_l, symbol work fine, at worst it will be more characters, that's it 00:45:36 and uppercasing will break 00:45:40 lnostdal: some optionally do. So you may need to enable it (I think) 00:45:59 lnostdal: I think Corman doesn't have Unicode, but I'm not sure 00:46:04 lnostdal, wouldn't it be better for symbolicweb to have some default widget looks? 00:46:14 like gtk or qt have their "themes" 00:46:18 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:46:30 hmm, dunno if you're the developer 00:46:51 ecl doesn't support unicode, for instance 00:47:02 one of the commercial impls didn't 00:47:05 yeah, weirdo .. i've been working on other stuff; there are basically no widgets or themes now .. just thin wrappers around plain-old-html form type elements like and etc. 00:47:06 either lw or acl 00:47:58 -!- pkok [n=patrick@f102140.upc-f.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:48:05 i don't think there should be any need to write html, do everything with widgets 00:48:12 make stuff like vbox, hbox 00:48:16 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:48:16 but it looks promising :) 00:48:26 pkok [n=patrick@f102140.upc-f.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 00:48:27 i didn't get what your stuff does, though, and i have no repl to meta-point atm 00:48:39 like with-formula. look kenny-ish, though 00:48:43 looks* 00:49:17 yeah, haven't gotten to that yet .. i played with a dsl for simple layouts a while back though; http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/37f64b38d397f6c6? --> http://nostdal.org/lnostdal/temp/symbolicweb-local.org-layout-first-test.html .. (try resizing) 00:50:53 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:51:53 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:39 we all have web frameworks and mine is least ambitious :-( 00:52:49 with-formula is probably something i'll try to get rid of eventually, or at least hide .. i do not know where to "store" some of the connections between observers and observed objects .. i mean, for (let ((x ..) (square ..) it's easy .. square stores the "formula" directly, but wrt. model --> view i don't know where to store things always yet 00:52:55 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 00:53:53 the alternative is to create "dummy-slots" to store those formulas .. perhaps it really is what is a Controller in other frameworks (MVC) 00:54:02 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:54:03 *shrug* 00:54:05 make x a symbol-macro 00:55:51 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-167-157.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:55:59 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:56:00 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:56:35 My sbcl on Xen VPS doesn't work. What do these errors mean? http://paste.lisp.org/display/84790 00:56:35 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:44 weirdo, you're thinking of the ~ thingy? .. deref? .. yeah, i got a with-cells macro for that .. but often slots are stored in classes and deref is hidden by mop there .. . http://paste.lisp.org/display/84787#1 00:58:52 i don't know what your symbols stand for, actually 00:59:00 and i didn't even know it was STM 00:59:18 -!- demmel_ [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-204-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 00:59:43 weirdo, there are some very short explanations here; http://paste.lisp.org/display/82845#6 00:59:51 well, at least i know that STM is some fancy concurency library, decided to beat clojure with extreme prejudice 01:00:10 s/decided/destined 01:00:14 crap it's late 01:00:26 weirdo: hrmm? Clojure uses STM. 01:00:27 yes, 3:11 here .. i'm on a beer+coffee buzz :P 01:00:29 if you've got nowhere to store something, use a weak hash 01:00:52 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:00:57 weirdo, that's exactly what with-formula does .. it just creates a weak link .. heh .. but i still feel it is wrong somehow though 01:01:07 your clock is off by 11 minutes, use NTP 01:01:15 -!- masm [n=masm@a213-22-83-196.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:01:37 pkhuong: verify_gc() seems broken, yeah. 01:02:05 check this out on the game we're brainstorming on: Dodek: (:fishing (:requires (:items :rod :hook :worms) (:area :water-present)) (:effects (:items :fish) (:stat (:fatigue 1) (:boredom 10)))) 01:02:09 he got a really good idea :) 01:02:19 we could do a lot of stuff declaratively 01:03:56 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:58 then AI could make sense of it basing on a few primitives that actually require code 01:04:08 yah, declarative is nice .. it's like side-effects on stereoids; you never know what the hecks going on .. :} 01:04:46 but declarative code and that which generates its expansion combined are simpler than imperative code that does the same thing 01:04:47 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:01 weirdo: Go read PAIP for that. The whole symbolic AI with planners thingy backfired quite nicely :3 01:05:22 it's way easier to e.g. check out if toadstool's pattern matchers are correct and if the pattern is correct than writing cadars and consps tediously 01:05:36 i've read paip :) 01:05:46 yeah 01:07:10 p_l, oh my.. now i remember! 01:07:27 it was combinatorial explosion or what? 01:07:59 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:08:34 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-74-53.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 01:08:38 hey 01:08:57 nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:43 Couldn't load foreign library "libdb2". -- While loading clsql on sbcl, mac os x, any one knows why? 01:09:52 weirdo: something like that. Instead of this, I was planning on making bigger chunks of moves etc. and allow players to define new elements based on those - it's mainly for magic system, though (magic and skills) 01:10:15 nurv101: for some reason you are trying to load IBM DB2 library, I think 01:10:41 p_l: it's cool to continue since i'm only going to use mysql? 01:11:00 wow, i reinvented General Problem Solver 01:11:07 too bad i wasn't the first one to invent it 01:11:13 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:11:18 nurv101: I guess so 01:11:25 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 01:11:29 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-196.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:11:55 p_l: sometimes you can still simplify the problem into something tractable (e.g. path/cycle-finding), or even just dump that in an industrial-strength SAT solver. 01:12:10 stepnem_ [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:21 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:12:25 -!- stepnem_ [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:14:03 pkhuong: Oh, I know 01:14:48 stepnem_ [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:16 anyway, some time ago I worked out some principles for magic/skill system for MMORPG that was designed to avoid duplicity of skills and promote individual creation :) 01:15:27 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [No route to host] 01:16:48 based on programming, as well, so you could reuse it to make people learn how to properly use computers xD 01:18:28 ... IME, many people don't care about how to properly use computers, they care about getting a specific job done well enough to get paid for it. 01:18:30 oh no, math 01:18:44 and it's np-complete 01:19:12 nyef: what if it makes the job much shorter? 01:19:15 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:19:18 Therefore, the only way to "make" people learn how to properly use compuers is to provide useful incentive. 01:19:32 Doesn't help for people who bill by the hour. 01:19:52 -!- stepnem_ is now known as stepnem 01:20:24 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-196.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 01:20:26 you can't make everyone to be on the same level 01:20:38 wage system is completely broken 01:20:42 For them, you need to drive them under by marginalizing their core competency, which is rarely computer-related and when it is rarely involves the parts that they're doing atrociously badly. 01:21:04 system administrators have to underachieve 01:21:07 nyef: well, this was designed to make a game where instead of "grinding" for "levels", you could for example learn various elements (more like library functions) that they can use for example to craft their own spells :D 01:21:08 weirdo: Of course it is. "An honest days pay for an honest days work is slavery." 01:21:11 otherwise they /seem/ to be redundant to the management 01:21:29 weirdo: not always, I loved working for Stream 2 in Era GSM 01:21:57 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 01:22:04 and now we can't do anything about wage slavery since marx broke it with his concept of vanguardism 01:22:14 it's either one form of tyranny or other kind of tyranny 01:22:17 p_l: So... instead of trying to level you'd try to find a with-open-file macro? 01:22:28 weirdo: however, sysadmins in such a company practically keep a nuke near company's family jewels 01:22:55 p_l, plausible deniability is valued, though 01:23:16 nyef: No, but instead of "grinding" you could spend time creating more interesting "items" and "spells", with the only limit being game engine and players creativity 01:23:25 *nyef* knows at least one network admin who was told when he was hired, in effect, "You do not have a budget. You will never have a budget." 01:24:02 nyef: I was told "We prefer to buy a new server instead of spending several hours optimizing for 5% increase of performance" 01:24:16 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:24:34 p_l: So, you end up with the powergamers FAQ with instructions for making all the "best" items and spells? 01:24:41 typical price for "new server" => ~$20k 01:25:01 i was told "500 polish zlotys is enough for a system for managing users, their domains, email accounts, files, complete with configuration files for daemons and an anti-spam solution" 01:25:07 motherfucker, how i hate him 01:25:17 and i agreed. i was young and foolish 01:25:33 for some laugh at my expense, check exchange rates for the polish zloty 01:26:34 nyef: not really - even if you wrote down a spell that could level a city, if you didn't have enough experience (in using spell elements included + trained to have enough power to power it, or enough "power" stored in various special purpose "items") said spell would backfire 01:27:17 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:27:18 -!- fnord1231 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:27:42 weirdo: The worst thing is that if you disagree for such rates they will go to zlecenia.przez.net or other Rent-a-Coder lookalike place and get some worthless job done for small change 01:28:41 weirdo: And all places that might pay sensible rates look for people with several years of experience. Except, where the hell do you find such experience? 01:28:54 *p_l* was *very* lucky with his only official employment in Poland 01:30:15 lucky as in "probably top earner among his co-graduates from his hi-school" just out of High School 01:31:32 general problem solver seems good enough for my purpose 01:32:02 p_l, i hope it doesn't require the ability to send invoices 01:32:08 better yet, not declaring taxes 01:32:27 i hate the invoices thing. our market socialist govt loves to keep people from being successful 01:32:32 so they could come to it grovelling 01:33:33 why do i have to pay 800 zlotys a month to have the ability to make invoices?! 01:34:16 weirdo: I got job at PTC (aka "Era GSM", "Heyah" etc.) as junior sysadmin. 3500 brutto, and it was me who called the wage. it was around a month after graduation :3 01:34:33 wow, you're very lucky 01:34:49 i need to get math classes and then go to a university 01:35:14 being an academician sounds fun, like, working on hard problems 01:35:20 still no Lisp here... 01:35:21 not having managers 01:35:24 having tenure 01:35:27 why not? i could teach lisp 01:35:35 i could be very persuasive, i could talk to the dean or something 01:35:37 no, in this channel 01:35:38 :-) 01:35:48 oh. sorry for straying offtopic 01:36:09 it's kind of late, you know, 3:36am CET 01:36:48 5:36 am here 01:37:05 fnord123 [n=fnord123@78-105-27-133.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 01:37:07 0236. And I haven't done any serious coding, dammit 01:37:29 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:37:49 too much rss, too much open tabs, too many open windows, too many workspaces, too many im windows 01:37:55 *stassats* haven't done anything too, though he doesn't need to do anything 01:37:55 s/im/IM 01:38:16 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:40:08 by the way, any one knows how to setup where the libraries are in clsql? 01:40:20 I'm getting some - Couldn't load foreign libraries "libmysqlclient", "libmysql". 01:40:40 hmm, already two np-complete problems in the game without i started typing 01:40:49 travelling salesman and boolean satisfiability 01:40:57 Is there a sbcl package for CentOS? 01:41:33 there are plenty of rpms floating around 01:41:46 nurv101, libmysqlclient16 or so (debian) 01:41:55 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.211] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:42:10 tomoyuki28jp: why do you need one? 01:42:12 nurv101, (as in debian package; do an 'aptitude search' to confurm; i'm running a mixed system here) 01:42:33 lnostdal: sory i forget to day, i'm in MacOS x 01:42:36 yeah, just run a latest CVS build 01:43:00 weirdo, git! 01:43:09 point taken 01:43:21 you say git has newer stuff? how nice 01:43:22 get sbcl from sbcl.org, get clbuild, build sbcl, get rid of the first sbcl 01:43:35 yow 01:43:48 i thought clbuild was crap because i confused it with cl-run 01:44:04 but now i see it kicks butt 01:44:22 stassats: I just wanted to know if "yum install sbcl" works. I applied Xen VPS to use SBCL, but I couldn't install SBCL on it with Ubuntu 9.04. http://paste.lisp.org/display/84792 So I am thinking to change the OS. 01:45:32 git clone git://sbcl.boinkor.net/sbcl.git and git clone git://sbcl.boinkor.net/slime.git 01:45:45 tomoyuki28jp: you know that you can make annotations? 01:46:07 stassats: on the paste site? 01:46:12 yes 01:46:14 lnostdal: Are you saying that to me? 01:46:17 stassats: yes I do 01:46:30 lnostdal! 01:46:36 tomoyuki28jp, i guess .. i always have a hard time finding those links .. heh :) 01:46:37 why do you have 4 different pastes then? 01:46:37 i have a solution to your cell problem 01:46:48 use MOP and override SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS 01:46:56 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:47:02 if it's put in a class, use SLUC to grab it from a weah hash 01:47:13 SVUC, SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS 01:47:20 lnostdal: I will try the one from git, thanks for the info. 01:47:36 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 01:47:52 tomoyuki28jp, nah, he said it to me 01:48:10 gigamonkey: ping 01:48:15 weirdo: oh, ic 01:48:35 oh, he said it to both of us 01:48:41 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:49:19 so it's already noon in japan, eh? 01:50:05 weirdo: yeah 11:00 am here in japan. 01:50:30 generally use sbcl nightly builds. when it breaks horribly, you can do a good deed and report it 01:50:35 but it rarely breaks 01:50:55 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:51:04 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:51:05 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:19 how nice, using variables proclaimed special in lambda lists 01:51:45 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:51:47 nightly builds? where one can get those? 01:51:59 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 01:52:20 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Success] 01:53:18 fnord123_ [n=fnord123@host86-146-160-57.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 01:53:20 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:53:49 it's late, you know what i mean :) 01:53:55 my travelling salesman is even worse 01:54:06 at each step there are multiple choices to make 01:54:10 he got drunk? 01:54:16 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 01:54:39 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:54:52 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 01:55:16 other choices can be discarded 01:55:19 weirdo, hmm .. i can try setting up a simple example or test case; http://nostdal.org/lnostdal/programming/lisp/sw-mvc/temp/lifetime-of-formula-thingies.lisp .. 01:55:24 for instance, i can buy a fishing rod from multiple sources 01:55:30 then i can go to multiple places to catch fish 01:56:07 or forget about fish and go to a bar 01:56:15 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 01:57:11 weirdo, i suppose i could have a svuc for classes that are sub-types of some 'view-base' class or so? .. any formula touching it will be linked weakly to it(??) .. i'm tired .. heh :} 01:57:19 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:57:24 <_3b> weirdo: isn't that just shortest path unless you need to use every fishing pole to catch every fish? 01:57:25 lnostdal your problem is that the entry is still present in weak hash table because it hasn't been gc'd yet/ 01:58:08 _3b here it is, but in general case each step doesn't require the former 01:58:12 weirdo, no, i've solved that on a higher level .. i can change models @ run-time and old ones still not GCed do not cause updates etc. 01:58:24 like, to get high you need both a lighter, a bong, some water and pot 01:58:29 s/both// 01:58:48 -!- fnord123 [n=fnord123@78-105-27-133.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:58:50 you use finalizers? 01:59:13 but i dunno .. maybe the with-formula thingy really is fine for these things 01:59:47 the (setf model-of) method takes care of explicitly disconnecting the old model (the cells working as "forwarders"), weirdo 02:00:31 (..or let's say "a (setf model-of)" method .. since i haven't really shown this here.. it handles multiple connections in this manner..) 02:00:35 you could do "dependents" like in plt scheme 02:00:55 weirdo: add non-strict, non-symbolics elements to "find" goals 02:00:55 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:01:05 ...for composite or more complex models 02:01:43 weirdo: actually, insofar putting explicit randomness in various routines that use fuzzy logic to calculate outcome doesn't sound so bad for AI 02:01:47 p_l, how about doing travelling salesman when n is small and using a heuristic otherwise? 02:02:21 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-167-157.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:02:23 yeah, a heuristic 02:02:35 i need to read on fuzzy logic 02:02:47 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 02:03:32 crap. forgot i have, uh, "math issues" 02:03:35 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 02:04:00 well, i could always do it later, when basic stuff is fleshed out 02:05:35 weirdo: well, for my game AI ideas (got few that I want to try out one day) I'm going with ton of statistics (many of them hidden, none of that "stats" crap), fuzzy logic, some symbolic planners (for the stuff that is more rigid). Basically a big giant ball of mud, where different types of mud are different AI techniques :D 02:07:02 shenmin1 [n=Administ@114.231.50.210] has joined #lisp 02:07:22 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:07:37 not to mention that said game ideas require quite a bit of social simulation :) 02:08:01 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:12 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:11:26 saikat [n=saikat@67.180.9.222] has joined #lisp 02:12:56 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:18 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-74-53.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 02:16:05 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:16:15 shenmin11 [n=Administ@117.86.77.76] has joined #lisp 02:16:18 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jgxxdpntvgeufgca] has joined #lisp 02:16:58 nm [n=nm@82-37-109-215.cable.ubr02.sand.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:17:16 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:20:19 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 02:20:42 pizdets [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:26 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 02:24:54 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:34 -!- shenmin1 [n=Administ@114.231.50.210] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:29:12 -!- shenmin11 [n=Administ@117.86.77.76] has quit [Client Quit] 02:29:13 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-142-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:54 shenmin1 [n=Administ@117.86.77.76] has joined #lisp 02:31:09 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:33:28 -!- mdavid [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:34:22 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:34:33 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-142-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 02:36:08 girzel [n=user@61.51.238.144] has joined #lisp 02:36:22 -!- saikat [n=saikat@67.180.9.222] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:37:36 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:38:28 yes hello 02:38:49 chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-62-76.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:57 ... As opposed to "no hello"? 02:39:03 exactly! 02:39:33 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 02:39:56 So, like the ACK / NAQ thing where one means "I hear and understand you, but you can take that last request and..."? 02:40:48 shove it up your ass, yes (: 02:41:02 I wasn't going to say it... this time. 02:41:22 I'd wonder how it got to be 10:40 pm, but I'm fairly sure it involves angband somehow... 02:42:10 (Had a level 29 character killed not so long ago. New record for me.) 02:42:25 aaargh.. angband. I used to be on debian and it had zangband. Then I installed arch and it has... other angbands and for some reason I can't get zangband built. 02:42:34 congrats.. on the record, not the death :) 02:43:20 Mmm. I'm a little unimpressed with the disturbance options for angband 3.0.6, and the panel/map sector split took a bit of getting used to. 02:43:52 One problem I find is that the game, or at least my play style, gets tedious once I get past a certain point. 02:44:06 Yup. 02:44:13 My play style too. 02:44:26 I just.. need to.. beat the game so I can stop playing it. 02:44:34 roguelikes are hard, let's go shopping 02:44:48 Shopping is hard, let's play angband. 02:44:50 *weirdo* got killed by a soldier ant one time too many 02:45:00 shopping is harder. All that having money to waste etc. (: 02:45:26 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:45:34 kmels_ [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has joined #lisp 02:45:53 I've been killed by lagduf the snaga's escorts or mughash the kobold lord's escorts a few too many times. 02:46:08 But fortunately not recently. 02:47:03 weirdo: you want hard? Play DF. Especially when you remove certain patches to guarantee return of certain killer creatures 02:47:43 DF? 02:47:45 worst menace possible? Army of undead, skeleton carps 02:47:51 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 02:47:53 schme: Dwarf Fortress 02:47:58 oh I tried that. 02:48:04 It seemed... slow and dull :P 02:48:24 it has the most extensive world generation and enviromental system out there... just lacks the graphics 02:48:35 I had some graphics for it I think. 02:49:02 But it was so... nothing happening when I played. Just "oh dig in here." and then one had to wait for eeever. 02:49:21 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:21 and the generator is freaky. I lol'd hard when a DF developer described to me a "painting of Elven female sexually abusing a tentacled monster" 02:49:30 schme: old graphics code was *SLOW* 02:49:46 p_l: I think the game itself was slow. 02:49:58 as in, RIDICULOUSLY GODDAMMIT SLOW 02:50:10 The graphics didn't seem so slow though ? 02:50:34 I swear I played for 30 minutes and nothing of interest happened. 02:50:37 schme: another thing is that placement of your fortress causes differences between difficulty 02:50:43 and it was so boring to watch those guys dig around. 02:50:47 30 minutes, lol. It's a game for hours 02:50:50 if not weeks 02:50:59 Right.. and nothing happened, so I quit playing. 02:51:23 Demosthenes [n=demo@66.235.80.184] has joined #lisp 02:51:35 They shouldsa make it more attractive for me to play! (: 02:52:30 schme: read about hordes of enraged elephants slaughtering your dwarves, dwarven blood dripping from their husks. It makes the game suddenly more attractive 02:52:57 I read lots about it though. Still it seemed to be a game of much staring at the screen and just waiting :P 02:53:36 schme: someone once had crazy idea of implementing DF in DF 02:53:50 theoretically possible, but there would be problem with I/O 02:54:29 That sounds odd (: 02:54:31 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:54:36 the game world is afaik turing complete, and allows you to build a mechanical computer inside as well 02:55:00 that's great 02:55:13 except you would probably have scaling problems (you'd have to place the memory somewhere) 02:55:53 How about in the mountain? 02:56:35 you'll never release it. development hell. 02:56:40 too ambitious 02:57:09 or you'll get bored when it's *almost* ready 02:57:47 schme: still, it would be like trying to build core memory with crude tools 02:58:10 just control and data buses would take ton of space 02:58:17 -!- kmels_ [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:58:40 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has joined #lisp 02:59:10 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:59:47 wait, what 02:59:49 it has been done? 03:00:15 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:00:40 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has joined #lisp 03:00:46 weirdo: no, but that's based on what I know of DF (haven't played too much) 03:01:05 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:14 hmm is there a standard way to plug an (unsigned-byte 8) stream to a character one? 03:01:21 Script a program to create it for you? 03:01:39 phadthai: "plug"? 03:01:48 well, connect the two 03:01:52 bivalent streams or flexi-streams, maybe. 03:02:00 Neither of which are really standard. 03:02:58 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:03:29 man, heapsort is awful on large data sets. 03:03:32 I know about flexi-streams but not about bivalent, will check it out, thanks 03:03:48 it's still unfortunately that a streams re-implementation be necessary though 03:03:55 s/unfortunately/unfortunate/ 03:05:07 reading from files or from a socket has to convert from byte to character, but it'd be nice to be able to do the same on an arbitrary binary stream as-is 03:05:41 I'll try flexi-streams first as I already have it installed, thanks 03:06:02 SBCL streams are bivalent these days, aren't they? 03:06:31 they might be, but I get an error if trying read-byte on a character stream or read-char from a binary one 03:06:59 and the same errors when connecting two incompatible streams 03:10:00 -!- shenmin1 [n=Administ@117.86.77.76] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:10:16 in this scenario, sbcl reads utf-8 characters from a socket, where some invalid utf-8 sequences can be found, where an exception happens before the byte is consumed, and a restart needed to consume the invalid byte(s) 03:10:42 suggesting that perhaps I could read-byte and decide to interpret those as latin-1 and convert accordingly to char, but this fails 03:11:58 ... Presumably you have some method of determining the length of this run of characters? 03:12:12 Or is this protocol defined in terms of lines of text? 03:12:58 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.211] has joined #lisp 03:12:59 read-line could also be used but since I didn't want to skip too much data I went on with a custom-read-line around read-char 03:13:09 same exception happens at read-char internally called by read-line 03:13:16 Of course. 03:13:37 Which leads to questions of "how sure are you that this is supposed to be utf-8" and so on. 03:13:55 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jgxxdpntvgeufgca] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:14:58 This isn't the IRC protocol, is it? 03:15:42 in the case of irc both utf8 and iso8859 characters would be common, although one could also decide to just use ascii or a byte stream depending on what it needs to do with the input 03:16:16 my tests were indeed on irc actually, with a utf8 default configuration 03:17:33 For IRC, being a line-based protocol, I'd use a latin-1 stream, as it has a 1-1 mapping to octets and the actual protocol is defined in terms of sequences of characters (presumably ascii, but I don't recall them ruling out ebcdic), then playing encoding games in terms of the string-to-octets and octets-to-string functions in SBCL. 03:17:39 I'd treat IRC as a binary protocol and decode each message separately. 03:17:56 That's another approach, yes. 03:18:08 And not one I'd dismiss out-of-hand, either. 03:18:12 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jtmkatvyfyzawdvj] has joined #lisp 03:18:36 yes 03:21:15 hmm actually decoding the lines separately as necessary with babel doesn't sound bad, it's unlikely for a line to have both utf8 and latin-1 characters also 03:21:43 *nyef* points out that this line is comprised entirely of characters that are both utf-8 and latin-1. 03:22:10 I guess I meant non-ascii latin-1 extensions :) 03:22:38 phadthai: latin-1 is an extension to ASCII. 03:22:38 Statistically, around here, a line is very likely to have all of its characters be both utf-8 and latin-1, and occupy the same code points in both. 03:22:39 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:22:46 pkhuong: yes 03:23:19 nerdshark [n=dorkfish@74-131-37-143.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 03:23:37 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 03:23:38 Dwarf Fortress was probably fun before the Z-axis rewrite 03:24:20 saikat [n=saikat@67.180.9.222] has joined #lisp 03:26:57 Another intro SBCL project: write specialised sorts for common cases. 03:28:38 You could even say that that was a rather specialized sort of intro project. 03:29:12 mumble mumble intro-sort mumble *rimshot*. 03:31:11 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:21 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:14 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:34:32 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:56 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 03:37:39 jdijk [i=jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has joined #lisp 03:37:46 -!- jdijk [i=jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 03:41:15 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:41:16 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-152-50.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:10 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:44:54 Okay, I clearly need sleep. 03:44:58 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-222-164-136.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 03:47:12 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.211] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:48:24 Wombatzus [n=wombatzu@adsl-67-124-148-26.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:00 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:50:36 -!- peddie_ [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:54:49 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 04:02:48 -!- saikat [n=saikat@67.180.9.222] has quit [] 04:04:01 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-62-76.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:05:22 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-152-50.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:08:37 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.8.73] has joined #lisp 04:10:18 i have finally learned to embrace competence and ditch mysql for good 04:10:22 along with clsql 04:10:39 "server went away" is not an error i wanna see again 04:10:55 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.233.240] has joined #lisp 04:11:56 but it's mostly my fault; opening connection to the database on app startup and "refreshig" it every so minutes through a dummy thread is bad. I should have used WITH-DATABASE and opened the connection anew for every invokation 04:13:10 Adlai: you rang? 04:14:56 gigamonkey: yes. After cygwin finally downloaded & installed, I got the Lispbox source, but then couldn't find a copy of Emacs 21.3! 04:15:27 So, I'm wondering whether I should try and fix up Lispbox to use a more (most?) recent version of Emacs + Slime 04:16:20 the more recent slime, the more help it can get 04:17:14 there can be also some additions for compatibility with PCL 04:17:33 (couple of key-bindings was changed) 04:17:46 stassats: yes, and also, the easier the transition from Lispbox to "the real world". 04:18:15 I don't think any of the keybindings mentioned in PCL have changed, have they? 04:19:45 C-c C-q is no more 04:24:51 gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 04:25:34 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:56 monsier [n=monsier@p1021-ipbf1004hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:26:24 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-69-232-218-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:27:45 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.246.106] has joined #lisp 04:28:56 -!- Adlai is now known as Adlai-AWAY 04:29:31 minion: memo for Adlai: you can probably upgrade to a newer version of Emacs. 04:29:31 Remembered. I'll tell Adlai when he/she/it next speaks. 04:32:53 gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-226-147-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has joined #lisp 04:33:17 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-69-232-218-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:25 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-55.yok.fi] has quit ["100 days are gone..."] 04:36:06 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-22-219.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:36:14 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-191.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:37:15 -!- monsier [n=monsier@p1021-ipbf1004hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has left #lisp 04:37:41 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-55.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 04:37:49 -!- nm [n=nm@82-37-109-215.cable.ubr02.sand.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:38:53 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 04:39:51 fusss: what did you switch to from clsql? 04:40:11 postmodern, evaluating weblocks at once from now til friday 04:41:41 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-69-232-218-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:44:32 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-22-219.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:49 nm [n=nm@82-37-109-215.cable.ubr02.sand.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 04:47:26 symbolicweb looks like it is shaping towards something fun, though I woe lack of no-js variant 04:48:05 i know my way around hunchentoot and have enough crap using it already that i can't change easily 04:48:23 though ht-compat looks like something I should invest a few days in for insurance purposes 04:51:06 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-22-219.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:51:26 plage [n=user@81.82.210.57] has joined #lisp 04:51:30 Good morning. 04:52:10 morning plage 04:52:17 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@75.52.254.149] has joined #lisp 04:52:24 evening 04:53:27 Morning. 04:55:24 -!- gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:59:37 morning (not really, just another sleepless night... aaargh) 04:59:38 hefner, what did the Z-axis rewrite affect? 05:00:43 p_l: http://common-lisp.net/project/clsql-fluid/ 05:00:50 I can't fucking believe this 05:00:56 -!- pizdets [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:01:04 fusss, whatnow? 05:01:28 tic: Lisp being Perl-like in terms of librarries? 05:01:40 fusss, define Perl-like 05:02:06 abundance 05:02:31 Have you been reading c.l.l? 05:02:48 abundance. that's a good thing, right? 05:02:53 no time for cl 05:03:03 *tic* opens up cll in his browser 05:03:16 mmm spam 05:03:40 tic: yes, and embarrassingly so. CLers always told people to "write your own", now it's JFGoogleit ;-) 05:03:50 fusss, yay! :-) 05:04:40 Common Lisp directory is a good source, which should be promoted more. Plus there's this whole DVCS revolution... I mean, all those github, bitbucket and gitorious repos? 05:05:06 cl-user, clbuild, cltl3. oh my. 05:05:58 deepfire: as I understand it (bearing in mind I didn't play it back then), early DF was played on a 2d map with a mostly fixed set of features, and there was a standard sequence of challenges with an eventual endgame 05:06:32 even now, DF defines "fun" as "dying" 05:06:45 and the world generator is crazy 05:07:20 iirc the game includes now a damage model that goes down to individual organs 05:08:48 -!- enn [n=eli@codeanddata.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:08:49 I played it for a bit, and it seemed like you'd have to do something really dumb to die, once you got established. several times, I'd build a growing, thriving fortress, indestructible inside walls and trenches, and eventually get bored of concocting ways to trap and kill goblin siege armies 05:09:21 hefner: have you tried settling down in some really bad area 05:09:21 ? 05:10:15 (the only way my last major fortress could die is if some idiot let the caged bronze colossus - which some other idiot move inside near the front door of the fortress - out to run amok) 05:11:05 speaking of which, are cl-user accounts approved quickly? 05:11:16 I never tried a really terrible area. I did a mountainside with a goblin fortress, where I couldn't grow any food and had to trade for it, but even that seemed to work okay. 05:11:21 i mean c-l.net 05:11:32 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:12:10 enn [n=eli@codeanddata.com] has joined #lisp 05:12:50 I don't mind games that hve you build your own stuff, so DF is quite interesting (haven't played much for different reasons) 05:13:12 -!- gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-226-147-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:16:44 damned router. Freezes for no reason 05:22:38 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:09 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:24:43 -!- nerdshark [n=dorkfish@74-131-37-143.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit ["WeeChat 0.3.0-rc2"] 05:24:57 dorkfish [n=dorkfish@74-131-37-143.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 05:25:40 -!- dorkfish is now known as nerdshark 05:26:02 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.233.240] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:32:59 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:33:33 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:33:43 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:28 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:21 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:52:35 gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 05:54:34 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-191.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:54:46 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:58:04 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:00:23 p_l: supposedly they try to model crap like molarity and tension and things. 06:02:33 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 06:02:34 Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 06:02:44 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:02:50 hello 06:09:48 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:12:55 about the earlier mixed utf-8/latin-1 discussion, it turned out that indeed sbcl socket streams may be bivalent (it obviously wasn't with :element-type 'character :) and that read-byte was fine in the handler-bind handling invalid utf-8 sequence condition 06:18:04 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:18:56 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 06:20:50 mason [n=user@192.108.16.220] has joined #lisp 06:22:17 mcclim 06:22:21 -!- xan_ is now known as xan 06:23:43 clhs: mapcan 06:23:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm 06:23:55 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:25:15 mason: What about McCLIM? 06:26:08 i've never been able to get it to work 06:26:18 like, the demos or anything 06:26:32 What platform are you using? 06:26:43 SBCL on ubuntu 06:26:52 i typically try to asdf-install it 06:26:54 That ought to work. 06:27:12 mason: That might not be a good idea. Try clbuild instead. 06:27:25 hmmm... ok 06:27:58 do clbuild and asdf-install play well together? it seems like they are both trying to do the same thing 06:28:08 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@75.52.254.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:28:52 mason: asdf-install relies on distributions, whereas clbuild uses whatever is considered the best way to get the software, asdf-insstall, cvs, darcs, you name it. 06:30:00 ahh.. ok 06:30:02 <_3b> hmm, OpenGL 3.2 spec is out, i need to catch up on cl-opengl stuff :/ 06:30:39 _3b: yeah I saw that too, i've done a lot of OGL programming in C++, not much in cl-opengl yet 06:30:57 plage: I'll try clbuild, thanks 06:30:58 _3b: did they finally give the promised functional API? 06:31:17 or did they abandon it completely with release of 3.0? 06:31:20 <_3b> p_l: not that i know of, though 3.1 chopped out a bunch of the old stuff (at least theoretically) 06:31:32 mason: No problem. Good luck! 06:31:57 <_3b> there have been a few extensions that pushed it a bit closer to that idea, but as far as i know it still has a way to go 06:32:52 any of the weblocks people around? 06:32:52 _3b: some time before release of 3.0 there was talk of a complete new API based around functional programming, allowing for thread-safe calls 06:33:40 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 06:33:56 Hopefully they didn't ditch the idea, only shelved it until 4.0.. 06:34:10 <_3b> p_l: yeah, i think they are still to some extent trying to move in that direction, just in smaller steps now 06:34:22 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 06:34:32 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:35 <_3b> (and with full backwards compat as an alternative) 06:36:22 -!- plage [n=user@81.82.210.57] has left #lisp 06:39:08 -!- mason [n=user@192.108.16.220] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:44:04 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:15 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:47:17 benny` [n=benny@i577A1CE5.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:47:45 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has quit [] 06:47:50 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:49:31 mason [n=user@192.108.16.220] has joined #lisp 06:50:32 -!- mason [n=user@192.108.16.220] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:50:47 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:51:22 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:52:24 HG` [n=wells@xdslhk208.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:52:27 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1C02.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:53:28 -!- benny` is now known as benny 06:55:11 gko` [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 06:59:57 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:00:24 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:00:44 good morning 07:01:52 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:16 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.86.98] has joined #lisp 07:02:19 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:04:22 Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has joined #lisp 07:05:29 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-8-251.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:16 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:07:57 -!- gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:08:39 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/session] has joined #lisp 07:09:17 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/session] has left #lisp 07:09:51 morganb [n=user@ip24-136-41-126.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:11 prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:44 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:13:51 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["leaving"] 07:15:48 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-53-195.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:16:27 -!- morganb [n=user@ip24-136-41-126.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:20:17  07:20:32 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:22:16 english please 07:24:43 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590e83e2.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 07:24:48 -!- Wombatzus [n=wombatzu@adsl-67-124-148-26.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:25:04 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-182-124.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:25:57 -!- gko` [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:28:21 virl [n=virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 07:29:26 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:30:01 sorry, not that window 07:32:16 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 07:33:52 -!- galdor_ is now known as galdor 07:33:55 where does one set the CLSQL store options for weblocks? i am just trying to run the demos, fwiw 07:34:33 fusss: it's been a while since i've used weblocks, but if things haven't changed, it should be in conf/stores.lisp 07:35:09 where conf is in your root dir (same dir as the asd file), not your src dir 07:35:27 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:35:32 p_l, morning .. lol .. you still up? O_o 07:35:52 -!- saikat_ is now known as saikat 07:37:22 fusss you are better off with postgresql 07:37:55 and postmodern 07:38:27 saikat: cheers! the demo apps were interfering with each other because i wasn't careful 07:39:04 jthing: i decided that already, i just need to take a look at clsql+mysql one last time just in case it's my fault 07:39:29 fusss: what problem are you having with clsql+mysql? 07:40:04 moody mysql connections timing out and "running away" 07:41:01 I have my hunchentoot sessions set to expire in 1 hour, my mysql connection kept open for 1 hour, and still, I got several "server went away" messages during a 30 minute session today 07:41:14 hmm 07:41:22 using dev release of weblocks or stable? 07:41:51 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-53-195.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:42:04 also probably you already tried this, but Leslie on the google groups is very helpful 07:42:10 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-100-217.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:43:10 -!- nm [n=nm@82-37-109-215.cable.ubr02.sand.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 07:43:13 i know leslie is cool. trying stable at the moment. 07:43:52 i have already written something that does half of what weblocks does, but lost interest in maintaining both my project and a pet web framework 07:44:50 why are you reinventing the wheel? 07:45:43 because i want an ellipse? 07:46:15 jthing: why did you learn to walk? so many other people can do it already. 07:46:18 if you must try implementing phppgsql in lisp 07:46:27 lol 07:46:51 phppgadmin 07:47:37 michaelw: indeed why walk when you can fly 07:48:00 roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-130-145.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:12 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-90-175-82.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 07:50:15 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-140-200.w81-48.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:50:17 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-100-217.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:51:57 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:57:02 gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 07:57:17 weblocks is cute :-) 07:59:53 *pbusser3* is still figuring out how to load one of the examples in weblocks. 07:59:58 lnostdal: yeah, I'm still up 08:00:45 yep, store the sessions in a database. dump a lisp image with weblocks and your app built in. seat lighty or nginx before it and let them serve static data. and write a few scripts to monitor a weblocks farm :-) 08:01:07 pbusser3: a bit tricky, i just ran it on Windows XP with LispWorks 08:01:20 has to patch a few places where they were using symbolic links 08:02:12 fusss: You think lighty or nginx in front of hunchentoot is better than connecting directly to hunchentoot? 08:02:24 pbusser3: duh. yes. 08:02:46 fusss: What are the advantages? 08:02:47 http://xkcd.com/619/ <--- kinda like CL, isn't it? 08:03:27 lighty has a little nice load balancer that will send new traffick to the least busy server instance, and old connections to the instance that has their sessions (making csql-session-db obselete ;-) 08:03:45 pbusser3: lighty being fast enough to serve youtube maybe? 08:04:38 Heh, sad thing that the guy who did the cpumask work to make Linux work on machines with a stupid amount of CPUs is homeless and dying from diabetes. 08:05:14 fusss: Well, sure lighty is fast enough. But that doesn't speed up weblocks, does it? 08:05:55 pbusser3: yes it does; take static content away from poor hunchentoot and let the beasts handle them 08:05:55 Is it just me or is the 1.0 version of hunchentoot flawed? 08:06:08 deepfire: that's a mental problem, btw 08:06:09 fusss: Ok, that makes sense. 08:06:19 I reported 30 errors so far. 08:06:23 fusss, what do you mean? 08:06:43 It is not a stable product.. It needs more work. 08:07:00 deepfire: still sounds better than a certain dying ex-employee of microsoft. Dying because of patent system, actually (drugs from EU necessary for his therapy got destroyed because it's illegal to sell them in USA without owning license to USA-only patent) 08:07:57 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:08:03 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has left #lisp 08:08:05 deepfire: at some point one has to put down the editor and run seeking help offline 08:08:19 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 08:08:26 fusss, what makes you think he didn't seek help offline? 08:08:50 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has left #lisp 08:09:22 p_l: There are usually good alternatives to patented medicines. If you start working on things early enough, then most diseases can be cured using the correct food and/or food supplements. 08:09:44 deepfire: iffy issues there, good luck to him. (would you happen to know his name or where he is now?) 08:10:06 He was denied health insurance, got his funds wiped off, got the sick leave denied, and thrown out of his house while in hospital. 08:10:23 davelambert [n=djl@monoblock.open.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:10:23 is this in the U.S.? 08:10:34 pbusser3: this wasn't that kind of disease. More like, those would help not getting it (due to stronger body), but by missing said shipment to already started therapy he calculated that unless miracle happened he is dead in few years 08:10:36 fusss, William Lee Irwin III, yes U.S. 08:11:01 p_l: What disease did he have? 08:11:40 pbusser3: So he tried to campaign for changes in patent system. As for disease, some kind of cancer, I think (yeah, I know that "cancer" is a wide category. Read the news few years ago, can't be arsed to check archives) 08:12:33 deepfire: he worked for IBM, did *they* deny him the sick leave? 08:13:03 fusss, no, that was past IBM. Not sure where exactly. Might be Oracle. 08:13:14 haha oracle 08:13:30 p_l: There are known good food stuffs and food supplements that make getting cancer much less likely. 08:14:16 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590e83e2.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:14:20 pbusser3: Sure. Doesn't change the fact that if you're already ill and past certain mark, just changing your lifestyle won't help you 08:14:55 p_l: True. That is why I said "early enough". 08:15:12 it also really depends on what kind of cancer hits you, some have genetic predisposition causes, others from occupation exposure 08:15:15 hell, when you go with basic definition of what "cancer" is, then you could probably assign most "natural" deaths under the age of 120 as cancer-related 08:15:20 p_l: Even then, boosting the immune system won't hurt at all. 08:15:49 p_l: Except when they are related to heart diseases. 08:16:05 p_l: Another category of life style related deaths. 08:16:39 http://kerneltrap.org/node/80 08:16:44 pbusser3: I know, I rarely use any kind of drugs, so the only time when I use any kind of drugs is when I go down with something serious. I recall that once my main prescribed drug was maximum-strength codeine xD 08:16:51 a interwiew which explains it 08:17:36 interview 08:17:51 jthing: it doesn't really explain it. says nothing about his health. it's an old article. 08:18:07 Anyhow, food supplements won't cure the problems I have with weblocks. 08:18:15 Although getting a clue might. 08:18:31 fusss: I thought you were talking about his programming background 08:18:36 haha, so true 08:19:41 Hmm, I'd suggest that you'd probably want "most natural deaths" over an age of X, where X is probably 30 or something. 08:20:16 We seem to be pretty resilent to cancer until we're expected to have reproduced successfully. 08:20:29 we all die, let's focus on the living 08:20:33 and Lisp 08:20:45 Zhivago: kinda obvious part of design, don't you think? 08:21:24 Well, it's more that there's little feedback for dying horribly after that point, except for grandparenting/uncling/etc. 08:21:39 Zhivago: most people have cancer 7 times in their lives ad don't die from it. The immune system takes care of it. 08:22:02 jthing: That is irrelevant. 08:22:08 yes 08:22:37 Although it is interesting to note that body mass seems to have a large role in surviving cancer. 08:23:15 bigger isn't always better eh? 08:23:21 The larger you are, the more chance that you can survive the growth of the tumor to the point where the tumor dies of cancer, ironically enough. 08:23:27 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1CE5.versanet.de] has quit [No route to host] 08:23:43 Which is why whales and elephants don't have incredibly short lifespans. 08:24:28 masm [n=masm@a213-22-83-196.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 08:24:36 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 08:26:02 angerman [n=angerman@host230.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:26:28 Whales and elephants have a balanced diet that provides them with everything their body needs to be healthy. 08:26:35 Like with most wild animals. 08:26:36 interesting in a irellevan sort of way 08:26:47 Well, that's not true. They get plenty of cancer. 08:27:16 You can think of cancer as having an occurrence rate per tissue mass. 08:27:36 Humans have the best diet of all. This has caused the explosion of the elderly 08:27:39 Sure, it happens all the time. But it is killed before it becomes a tumor. 08:27:42 So they get a far higher frequency of tumor than humans do. 08:27:56 No, they become tumors. Whale autopsy discovers lots of tumors. 08:28:20 But, because the whales are large, they can survive tumors that grow quite large. 08:28:41 As a tumor grows larger it becomes more favourable to parasitical tumor cells. 08:28:55 Zhivago: where are you getting this from? (whale otopsy etc.) 08:28:56 I see. 08:28:58 Please, this is a chan about common lisp. 08:29:02 When you get a critical number of these, the tumor tends to die as the parasitical cancer cells drain its resources. 08:29:21 benny [n=benny@i577A1CE5.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:29:22 Let me find a reference. 08:29:50 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 08:29:52 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 08:30:55 http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/icm062v1 08:32:17 Zhivago: so, basically, cancer dies of cancer? 08:32:22 Not quite what I was looking for, but mostly. 08:32:52 Yeah. 08:33:02 And if you can survive the tumor until that happens, then you can repair the damage after it dies. 08:33:24 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:34:05 I didn't know that Zhivago, most interesting. But totally unrelated to Lisp! 08:34:14 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jtmkatvyfyzawdvj] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:34:26 Well, I fixed commas. 08:34:36 And backquotes. :) 08:34:41 lol 08:35:07 Zhivago, wouldn't metastasizification render that void, in most cases? 08:35:07 hehe 08:35:33 deepfire: You can see metastatization as an adaptation against that. 08:35:42 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 08:35:50 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-130-145.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 08:36:11 deepfire: However, cancers that kill their hosts before reproduction reduce their chance of formation in later generations. 08:37:40 If you see unquote as being the active operator, and backquote as a barrier against unquoting, then it works out nicely. 08:38:18 Zhivago: this is where you shut up! 08:38:32 e.g., there's no problem with something like (defun foo (x) '(a b ,x c d)) -- it can unquote to the nearest value context. 08:38:33 it is a after all a lisp group 08:38:34 oblige http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=743053 ;-) 08:38:57 Once you do this, then things like (defun ,foo (x) x) also make sense. 08:39:08 rotfl 08:39:38 jthing, nobody established you as #lisp police. Please, go away. 08:39:43 My favourite is (defrule (define ,name (,@parameters) ,@body) ...) 08:40:04 Zhivago: is that a LISA thing? 08:40:23 No, this is coming out of my implicit lisp and explicit lisp dialects. 08:40:24 deepfire: no, way I am having too much fun 08:40:27 LISA's defrule is an appropriate wrapper for defmethod, not that silly 08:41:03 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 08:41:06 LISA precedes CLOS 08:41:13 Well, defmethod can't handle things like (defrule (foo ,x) where (> x 10) "bar") 08:42:51 /clear 08:42:59 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:43:12 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:50 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229079111.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:47:45 As another benefit, it allow for constructs like #(1 2 ,x 3 4) :) 08:47:48 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 08:49:48 Ok, so it basically has algebraic inference. 08:50:02 What does? 08:50:10 LISA.. 08:52:16 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:52:27 Sorry I'm more in the math departement 08:54:08 Is there a significant advantage for lisa over prolog? 08:54:33 Prolog only handles Horn clauses 08:55:05 LISA handles first order logic which is more powerful, but slower 08:55:43 Zhivago: an interesting link about Peto's paradox you gave. And relevant to #lisp, since they did an in silico experiment (I hope in Lisp ;-)) 08:56:18 It has to do with the premices a,d -> d, e is first order vs. a -> b, c is a Horn clause 08:58:27 basically first order has a exponential developement wehereas Horn clauses (proog) has O(n^3) 08:58:35 prolog 08:59:20 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 08:59:34 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["decadence awaits"] 09:00:46 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:01:09 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.8.73] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:02:45 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-191.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:05:09 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:06:57 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:01 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has left #lisp 09:07:48 -!- mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-4fe070d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:07:52 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:58 *jthing* spesialized in matemtical logic.. 09:08:40 You might want to generalize out a bit and work on typing. 09:08:59 right, sorry 09:12:05 Anyhow these days it is mostly Baesian inference. 09:13:35 We don't know if anything is true or false anymore. We just pick the most likely senario based on past experience. 09:14:32 kinda like our internal cognitive processing 09:16:36 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 09:16:49 Any idea how serious this is? 09:16:50 fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 99022(tid 8459264): 09:16:50 sig_stop_for_gc_handler: wrong thread state on wakeup: 2 09:17:19 It drops me into the low level debugger 09:17:55 mikezor [n=mikael@c-4fe070d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:18:01 Sounds like a sbcl_dev mailgroup problem. 09:18:24 I'd classify anything that drops you into low-level debugger as "very serious" :-) 09:18:28 hmm, just wondering if I could progress on it. 09:18:49 p_l: oh, I didn't think it was that serious! Well, I'll remove all fasls and see if it still occurs. 09:19:02 rotfl 09:19:21 yup: all processes hung.. 09:19:37 ouch 09:19:50 rotfl? 09:19:59 ldb not serious rotfl? 09:20:11 p_l: oh, I didn't think it was that serious! 09:20:41 "fatal error" is a clue there 09:21:15 :-) 09:21:43 the slime prompt looked ok ... the shell window had the ldb> 09:21:47 UknowmyName2 [n=user7994@187.10.19.20] has joined #lisp 09:22:26 jthing: you mean about cognitive processing? 09:23:37 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 09:25:19 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@66.235.80.184] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:25:40 *p_l* loves making fun of the old AI notions in his thoughts 09:25:46 -!- virl [n=virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:29:10 btw, on a more lisp-related topic: Has anyone thought of making c.l.l a moderated newsgroup? 09:30:22 perhaps http://www.lispforum.com/viewforum.php?f=2 , p_l 09:30:22 and who would moderate it? (: 09:30:24 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 09:32:05 antifuchs: well, I think we could find few people interested enough to moderate such place 09:32:21 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.211] has joined #lisp 09:32:46 ... lol, first non-sticky thread on lnostdal's link => twin of a post I just opened in c.l.l 09:33:23 UknowmyName3 [n=user7994@189-19-115-60.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 09:33:23 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 09:34:17 interesting idea 09:34:41 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:34:47 From what I understand you are to ignorant to find and evaluate one LINE of C code. Mainly the server bit that set's the number of bans. 09:35:28 -!- UknowmyName [n=user7994@187.10.19.20] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:35:44 jthing: ? 09:36:57 Moderation ultimately means saying who is welcome. 09:37:05 Not who is not... 09:38:30 i find #lisp being moderated refreshing after a time of c.l.l. reading 09:38:46 me too 09:38:58 It has degenerated a lot lately 09:43:14 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:48:34 -!- UknowmyName2 [n=user7994@187.10.19.20] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:51:03 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:53:43 cpape [n=cpape@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 09:54:21 hmmm... cl-gtk2 looks nice 09:54:50 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:54:56 hello 09:56:01 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-083-015.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:13 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-1-77.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:56:49 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:57:29 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:59:17 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 09:59:23 ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-185-141.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 09:59:49 -!- girzel [n=user@61.51.238.144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:00:43 is the ECL author here on IRC? 10:02:49 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:03:56 -!- gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:04:20 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:06:44 lnostdal, never saw him here. 10:08:20 Try Jujo Snellman, he is rumored to be messing with it 10:09:12 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:12:59 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has left #lisp 10:13:17 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:16:42 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 10:19:06 shenmin1 [n=Administ@121.232.91.188] has joined #lisp 10:21:09 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:23:12 Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 10:24:47 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:24:54 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 10:25:53 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F029.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:25:54 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 10:25:58 -!- shenmin1 [n=Administ@121.232.91.188] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:29:47 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 10:32:24 -!- davelambert [n=djl@monoblock.open.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:35:00 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:36:45 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:37:48 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:43:35 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 10:44:22 davelambert [n=djl@monoblock.open.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:46:32 fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:49:47 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 10:49:54 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:50:37 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 10:51:14 matley [n=matley@83.224.198.93] has joined #lisp 10:55:18 -!- matley [n=matley@83.224.198.93] has quit [Client Quit] 10:59:47 -!- fnord123_ [n=fnord123@host86-146-160-57.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:03:42 cracki [n=cracki@44-116.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:07:29 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.86.98] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:09:10 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 11:10:46 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 11:19:54 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 11:22:35 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-24-191.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:24:50 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-24-191.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 11:26:14 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.211] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:29:51 -!- davelambert [n=djl@monoblock.open.ac.uk] has left #lisp 11:32:29 jan247_ [n=jan247@222.127.86.98] has joined #lisp 11:33:41 -!- jan247_ [n=jan247@222.127.86.98] has quit [Client Quit] 11:35:51 scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has joined #lisp 11:35:53 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:37:35 afternoon 11:38:35 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:38:47 logBot4123 [n=logBot@59.92.177.120] has joined #lisp 11:39:03 Ogedei [n=user@e178216091.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:42:10 Milo123 [n=Milo@202.152.85.136] has joined #lisp 11:42:40 -!- Milo123 [n=Milo@202.152.85.136] has left #lisp 11:45:46 Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:46:22 hello...has anybody attempted to use eclipse 3.5 with the cusp plugin? 11:46:46 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:46:47 Are there are masochist in here? 11:46:54 s/are/any/ 11:47:22 Milo123 [n=Milo@202.152.85.136] has joined #lisp 11:48:05 does tritchey use cusp? 11:48:30 he's not here now, but i _think_ he uses it 11:48:48 thanx 11:49:23 -!- Milo123 [n=Milo@202.152.85.136] has quit [Client Quit] 11:49:52 shenmin1 [n=Administ@121.232.44.223] has joined #lisp 11:51:41 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 11:52:28 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:52:37 plan9 [n=stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has joined #lisp 11:52:44 -!- shenmin1 [n=Administ@121.232.44.223] has quit [Client Quit] 11:55:10 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-1-77.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit ["..."] 11:56:46 CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.32.155] has joined #lisp 11:59:05 shenmin1 [n=Administ@121.232.44.223] has joined #lisp 12:01:35 -!- shenmin1 [n=Administ@121.232.44.223] has quit [Client Quit] 12:01:48 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 12:04:57 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 12:05:55 -!- Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 12:06:30 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:06:38 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-185-141.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:08:51 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:10:18 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:45 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:07 hawkbill [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has joined #lisp 12:17:49 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-22-219.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:37 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:19:20 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has joined #lisp 12:20:26 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 12:21:36 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:24:22 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-50-247.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:25:37 hawkbill [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has joined #lisp 12:26:52 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has quit [Client Quit] 12:29:09 hawkbill [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has joined #lisp 12:30:29 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 12:31:30 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@218.211.38.67] has quit [Client Quit] 12:32:15 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:32:54 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:33 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:35:20 acieroid [n=acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 12:36:22 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:30 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:46 blandest` [n=user@89.122.117.70] has joined #lisp 12:39:43 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 12:39:50 Greetings. 12:39:54 rvirding [n=chatzill@192.165.65.245] has joined #lisp 12:40:20 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-45-49.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:40:44 *p_l* wonders if he should look into different Map provider than Google. Api Key is killing me 12:41:07 they all have some sort of similar restriction, I think 12:41:37 rsynnott: yeah, but maybe one of them will validate their own Api Key 12:45:25 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 12:46:17 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:47:35 right now, I enjoy wonders of having constant API key failures so I can't really run the damned thing 12:47:58 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has quit [] 12:50:51 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.86.98] has joined #lisp 12:51:05 malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:53:20 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:54:04 -!- masm [n=masm@a213-22-83-196.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:55:30 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:55:34 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 12:56:07 yvdriess [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:56:49 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 12:57:18 girzel [n=user@221.223.31.46] has joined #lisp 12:58:19 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:00:20 -!- slava [n=slava@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:00:24 slava [n=slava@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 13:00:25 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:01:07 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:06 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 13:02:37 is there a way to specialize methods on multiple values? 13:03:02 it's not a type iirc 13:03:55 -!- blandest` [n=user@89.122.117.70] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:05:36 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 13:06:44 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:07:43 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:08:26 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 13:10:12 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 13:11:36 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:12:14 -!- UknowmyName3 is now known as ausente 13:16:56 weird, you cannot bind a multiple-values with defvar? 13:17:24 What would you bind them to? 13:17:54 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:47 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:20:09 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 13:20:40 (defvar *start-position* (values 2 3)) 13:20:45 something like that 13:21:01 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 13:21:15 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:21:21 capi uses multiple values for coordinates more often than not 13:21:51 yvdriess: But, you can't bind multiple values to one thing 13:22:04 i think you can do (defvar (*start-x* *start-y*) (values 2 3)) right? 13:22:40 Values aren't first class. 13:24:02 yvdriess: You could do (defvar *start-position* (multiple-value-list (something-that-returns-mv))) 13:24:52 multiple-values for coordinates seems wrong. 13:25:26 You could capture the values in a closure :) 13:25:53 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 13:26:07 (multiple-value-bind (a b) (foo) (lambda () (values a b))) :) 13:29:50 stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:05 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.210.45] has joined #lisp 13:31:35 -!- cYmen_ is now known as cYmen 13:32:10 Or in a list: (multiple-value-list (foo)) 13:34:00 billstclair: Hey, that was my suggestion ;) 13:34:19 Oops. My bad. 13:35:02 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:35:03 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:35:53 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 13:38:55 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:59 Taggnostr2 [n=x@dyn57-55.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 13:40:28 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-191.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:40:52 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 13:41:35 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:41:44 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:43:57 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 13:44:08 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:02 dabd [n=dabd@85.139.100.236] has joined #lisp 13:47:53 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-140-200.w81-48.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:49:47 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:50:27 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:50:40 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:09 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-55.yok.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:55:52 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:57:13 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:58:53 #ifdef AWFULLY_SLOW 14:02:46 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 14:03:51 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:26 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:04:41 'morning 14:04:54 evening 14:05:01 g'morning :) 14:05:23 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-223-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:12 Is there a common way to name a macro and the function that does the real work, like do-the-work and do-the-work-impl ? 14:09:19 Standards question...dunno, that's a good question, I haven't heard that much for standards. 14:09:48 cods: I'm noticing that make-string-path is flipping text on the x axis. what's going on there? (: 14:11:12 kuwabara1: WITH-FOO and INVOKE-WITH-FOO is common (in CLIM for example) 14:11:56 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.86.98] has quit [Client Quit] 14:12:23 kuwabara1: There are a couple of conventions depending on the type of macro. Like def/ensure with/call-with and maybe even do/map. 14:12:39 (or maybe with/invoke-with, as lichtblau says) 14:14:21 oh, I need to scale it by a negative number 14:14:21 *lichtblau* wonders whether there are more than these three common naming patterns 14:15:42 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@dyn57-55.yok.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 14:16:04 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-55.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 14:16:09 kuwabara1: when the macro has a non conventionnal name (eg it's part of a DSL), you can often see the underlying function named with a star appended. (defmacro XYZ (...) (XYZ* ...)) (defun XYZ (...) ...) 14:16:13 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.86.98] has joined #lisp 14:17:11 kuwabara1: I tend to call functions that generate code GENERATE- or GENERATE-, for a macro named . 14:18:28 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 14:18:33 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has quit [] 14:20:34 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:22 antifuchs: there is the :inverted keyword for that. But I do not remember exactly what I've done here. (I tend to forget anything.. Long time since my last use/dev of cl-vectors.) 14:21:40 milanj [n=milan@212.200.223.193] has joined #lisp 14:21:41 haha ok (: 14:21:50 well, scaling y by a negative number works for now (: 14:22:56 anyway, "inverted" depends whether the Y axis go upward or downward according to you :) 14:23:19 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:23:39 thanks matimago, sellout, lichtblau 14:24:45 ignotus` [n=ignotus@catv-80-98-252-94.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:25:39 hello, how can I get a finer resolution time in SBCL? I use get-universal-time right now, but I would like to have something with more precision 14:26:43 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-77.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:27:26 get-internal-{real|run}-time 14:27:37 lichtblau: superb, thanks 14:28:07 (not relative to 1900 though) 14:30:27 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:30:46 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:32:17 Excuse me for my igorance, but what exactly is homoiconism? 14:32:51 jthing: ignorance is so last century. We have Google now. 14:33:36 jthing: but, uh, where did that come from? 14:34:07 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoiconic 14:34:14 http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/rusty/rusty.html <- Maybe from here. 14:35:34 thanks 14:35:57 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:37:03 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.32.155] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:37:11 -!- stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:37:27 Hmm..this kinda goes as both an emacs as well as CL question - but kinda thinking, if I wanted to create a library that I would call through emacs, the only options I can think of is running it through slime or running it through cl-launch, which really both options aren't really integrated with emacs so well. 14:37:52 Are there any other options, besides just doing it in elisp? 14:37:52 swank? 14:38:54 Well, since slime goes through swank, that could work too - the "bootup" is pretty long at times, I wonder if there's a way to load swank but don't have it display at all on the buffer listing, so things are a bit faster. 14:39:10 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 14:39:11 hrm, i've finally been pressured into making a twitter account. anything lisp related I might want to follow? 14:39:13 Well, faster on command launches, slower on the emacs initial load, but I'm OK with that. 14:39:21 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-27-12.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:39:27 *Xof* is in ur sbcl, bloating ur unicode character database 14:39:27 well, swank stands alone in your lisp image. 14:39:32 -!- ignotus` [n=ignotus@catv-80-98-252-94.catv.broadband.hu] has left #lisp 14:39:37 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A676.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:40:01 you'd have to define a mode of some sort to interface /w emacs 14:40:28 Fade: Ah, yeah that's something I haven't done yet - I'll need to look into it, thanks. 14:40:54 Xof: still leaning towards disabling surrogates/noncharacters? 14:41:06 actually, no, I've swung back 14:41:12 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-241-91.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:25 Characters should be unicode composing-character-sequences, iirc. 14:43:58 Zhivago: composing character sequences? What do you mean? 14:44:19 right, I think that the Unicode "abstract character" concept is actually a sequence of Lisp characters 14:44:28 or most easily implemented as that, anyway 14:44:34 Well, a composing character sequence, if I remember the terminology properly is one which composes to produce an actual character that human beings would use. 14:44:36 Fade: When you were mentioning swank being in the lisp image, how does that work? google isn't really turning up a whole lot on that. I know you can "compile" a lisp program and it'll include the dependenceis including sbcl into your lisp image when it's done, and there's also the fasl which is the more byte-compiled version of your code. I'm not really seeing where swank fits into it. 14:44:39 of course, now I need to work out why lichtblau wants no surrogate characters 14:45:55 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:56 And it's the characters that human beings would use that CL talks about. 14:46:09 I think Lisp characters map better to code points, and then there are functions to get at some of the "abstract character" properties, if any. 14:46:13 So ideally one CL char should be a sequence of code-points. 14:46:28 Then your arrays would work properly. 14:46:53 Zhivago: so, cl:character should map to a grapheme cluster? 14:47:30 -!- cracki [n=cracki@44-116.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 14:47:43 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 14:47:51 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-109-91.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:47:52 Xof: I don't get it. "abstract characters" map to one codepoint only, don't they? 14:48:09 fnord123_ [n=fnord123@78-105-27-133.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:49:02 luis: Ah -- the correct unicode terminology is "combining character sequence". 14:49:28 luis: I mean that one CL character should map to one "combining character sequence", exactly as specified by unicode. 14:49:42 Zhivago: ah, gotcha. 14:50:14 luis: no; p191 of Unicode 5.19 says "canonical equivalences between precomposed characteres and combining character sequences that represent the same abstract characters" 14:50:41 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:51:02 Zhivago's plan may be The Right Thing, but it's not going to happen by tomorrow 14:51:12 It has certain costs. 14:51:26 in the meantime, better support for character-as-single-codepoint is what I'm working on 14:51:43 But, if you're not going to fix CL (e.g., by removing characters), then it's probably simpler. 14:52:58 I'm happy that newer languages seem to be discarding character as a type. 14:53:38 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:54:33 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 14:54:54 luis: okay, what is the correct way to iterate over an array in JavaScript. 14:54:56 Xof: hmm, could one implement Zhivago's proposal using your sb-sequence stuff and subclassing cl:string? 14:55:44 for (var index = 0; index < array.length; index++) 14:55:50 gigamonkey: AFAICT, either array.forEach() or the C-style for (i = 0; i < array.length; i++) 14:55:50 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:56:20 gigamonkey: for...in iterates over all of the array's object properties 14:57:09 And you don't want that because you'll get them back as strings, in any case. 14:58:16 TDT: swank is just a program that you load in your lisp image that implements a socket server. slime is a client that talks to that socket server. 14:58:21 Zhivago: I'm intrigued. Which languages discard characters as a type? 14:58:41 luis: okay. I misunderstood what you were saying in your tweet. (I was hoping there was something better than the C-style, which is what I use.) 14:58:43 Ogedei: python and javascript come to mind. 14:58:57 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:59:13 Gertm [n=Gertm@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 14:59:14 if you want emacs to talk to lisp in some way that is outside the semantics of a mode like slime, there's not really any way to get around the need to write some elisp to define the interaction you want. 14:59:33 Zhivago: well, they just use one-codepoint strings to represent characters, I don't think that's very revolutionaty 14:59:42 Gertm` [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 14:59:49 *revolutionary 14:59:56 -!- Gertm` [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:59:56 yeah, it doesn't solve the problem we're talking about 15:00:56 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 15:00:56 Ogedei: How do you know if it is one code-point or one combining-character-sequence? 15:01:25 Fade: Which would be fine, hmm...some elisp would be fine, I'm just thinking ti'd be nice for using libraries that elisp doesn't support. Have you done this a lot in the past? how difficlt is it to get all this working and is the speeed different than just in elisp noticable? 15:01:39 I haven't done it at all. 15:01:56 luis: no, because the elements of a cl:string must be cl:characters 15:02:19 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:02:20 you could implement Zhivago's idea and integrate it with cl:sequences, yes, but not cl:string 15:02:20 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Client Quit] 15:02:24 I think if you were trying to do a lot of heavy calculation, pushing that out to a common lisp image would probably make that calc faster. 15:02:49 Xof: why not? because of sb-sequences as is, or the standard? 15:02:51 but if you're talking about a lot of short lived stuff, you're probably better just staying in elisp. 15:03:12 Yes, replacing strings with lists rather than vectors would also work. 15:03:14 luis: because there's no way of extending cl:character 15:03:27 (except by hacking the implemnetation) 15:03:33 Fade: yeah, I can see optimizing it out there as well a bit easier. I'm just thinking if I wrote something that integrates with the ticket manager we use here, I'd want it to be a library that's available in CL, with elisp bindings of sorts - but not having to duplicate work is my main concern. 15:04:07 well, swank is the way to talk to your lisp from an external client. 15:04:21 the details are just details 15:04:28 Xof: I meant doing something like sb-sequences for strings, would the standard disallow that? 15:04:54 -!- fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:05:03 luis: no, probably not 15:05:11 The standard allows characters to be chunky objects. 15:05:14 also 15:05:39 TDT: slime itself should act as a good example of the actual semantics of writing a client for swank. 15:05:59 Hmm. "The types base-char and extended-char form an exhaustive partition of the type character." 15:06:03 dysinger [n=dysinger@200.25.197.105] has joined #lisp 15:06:06 Recent interview with the venerable Paul Graham -> http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2009/08/graham_on_start.html 15:06:20 Actually pretty annoying to listen to him. 15:06:38 I don't know if I can take an hour of him talking. I think he should stick to essays. 15:06:38 he says 'uhm' a lot in his public speaking. 15:07:05 Fade: Good point 15:07:14 Fade: Probably the best place I can check on first 15:07:58 Ah, but one could subclass extended-char. 15:08:23 gulagong [n=gulagong@dslb-088-072-048-054.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:40 There, problem solved. Now we just need to get funding for Xof to implement it. 15:09:07 that would be nice 15:09:19 funding for nikodemus to implement it might make more sense, though 15:10:16 Wombatzus [n=wombatzu@adsl-67-124-148-26.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:27 (I am always happy to discuss funding arrangements from people who might be interested in new SBCL functionality) 15:10:56 That would make a good t-shirt. 15:11:17 which unicode shortfall in sbcl are you discussing? 15:11:18 This is funny. He's being interviewed by an economist and there are these really awkward points where they don't understand each other. 15:12:05 fnord123 [n=fnord123@78-105-27-133.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:12:09 -!- fnord123_ [n=fnord123@78-105-27-133.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:13:42 fade: code-points vs. combining character sequences for mapping to CL characters. 15:13:46 Fade: ah wow I think this just kinda clicked on what this all means..I bet there's a way to call swank from elisp - I could start a swank server on bootup, listening on a certain port, and just call stuff from emacs to swank directly for what I want. 15:15:16 TDT: that's precisely what slime does. 15:15:24 Zhivago: ahh. ok 15:16:38 Fade: You'd be surprised how long it took for me to figure that out 15:18:55 I was under the impression that this arrangement was well understood by everybody here. :) 15:19:46 -!- Wombatzus [n=wombatzu@adsl-67-124-148-26.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:19:49 Fade: haha, sometimes it takes things to click for me :) 15:22:56 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 15:23:24 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest50023 15:24:10 -!- Guest50023 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 15:26:54 jan247_ [n=jan247@222.127.86.98] has joined #lisp 15:31:33 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-140-200.w81-48.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:32:02 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:32:56 -!- jan247_ [n=jan247@222.127.86.98] has quit [Operation timed out] 15:34:13 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:28 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:35:23 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.86.98] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:36:02 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.86.98] has joined #lisp 15:36:30 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 15:36:43 danlei [n=user@pD9E2C390.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:27 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-147-156.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:38:14 uhm, I cannot install trivial-backtrace with SBCL on my Xen VPS Debian 64bit. http://paste.lisp.org/display/84831 15:38:44 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:38:52 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:38:56 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:39:00 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-223-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:41:39 tomoyuki28jp: try picking the ACCEPT restart 15:42:33 tomoyuki28jp: you got a warning while compiling trivial-backtrace and ASDF is letting you know that. 15:43:19 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 15:48:29 luis: keep getting the error and it finally failed: compilation unit finished caught 1 fatal ERROR condition 15:49:06 I have tried the one from git repository, but the result is the same. 15:49:56 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:50:47 tomoyuki28jp: you can try to look at the warning that is triggering this and try to fix it. If you can't perhaps you should send a bug report to the author/maintainer. 15:55:09 luis: yeah, maybe I should do that. thanks for your advice. 15:55:09 *gigamonkey* wants a watch that can connect to a WiFi network and set itself via NTP. 15:55:41 luis: This is the log. http://paste.lisp.org/display/84833 I will send it to the author. 15:55:46 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:55:49 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:55:58 gigamonkey: Or, one that synchronizes with the radio transmissions of the atomic clocks. 15:56:13 nah, just from GPS 15:56:17 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:22 tmh: yeah, I had a clock that allegedly did that but it didn't seem to work very well. 15:56:32 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.86.98] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:56:48 gigamonkey: Interesting, I always wondered about that, but not enough to actually buy one. 15:56:59 GPS is probably the best time you'll ever get, considering it's adjusted for relativistic frame-shifting effects 15:57:41 dlowe: but NTP isn't far behind, as it also does adjustments for network latency. 15:57:44 Just as long as you carry it outdoors. :) 15:58:03 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.86.98] has joined #lisp 15:58:22 I wonder which would be cheaper to build into a watch, the GPS or the WiFi foo? 15:58:41 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 15:58:44 does GPS adjust for local idiocy? There are regions of extreme density around here 15:58:54 gigamonkey: I was reading your blog entry on division of parental duties. My wife and I are balancing that exact thing. She's an orthopaedic surgeon, I'm developing a home consulting business in aerospace engineering. My wife works 80% time for several reasons, but one of them is to get the health insurance. I noticed your wife works less than 80% time, does she still get company health insurance? 15:59:28 *stassats* can use n810 as a clock, it has both gps and wifi 15:59:41 tmh: yup. 15:59:49 She has a very cush job. 16:00:05 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:00:09 Does that health insurance extend to both of you as well? or just her? 16:00:25 Both of us. 16:00:27 -!- ausente is now known as Scorpion 16:00:37 gigamonkey: Nice, was that just part of the negotiations? We're considering relocation, so I'm wondering if she should try to negotiate that. 16:00:39 -!- Scorpion is now known as Scorpiaum 16:00:49 Of course we're still in the U.S. so we're basically screwed, vis a vis health care. 16:01:16 Nope, it was just part of the deal. 16:01:25 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:01:32 gigamonkey: Don't worry, they only cancel your policy if you get sick. 16:01:33 Well, I'd like to not get into the overarching health care discussion, I'm just interested in our specific situation. 16:01:48 tmh: fine by me. ;-) 16:02:02 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@192.165.65.245] has left #lisp 16:02:43 sellout: Yeah, that's depressing when one thinks of it..I'm in the U.S. too, and tha kinda thing bugs me. 16:03:02 Although I'd love to work half time at the university here, and work half time on another business - for the health care. 16:03:17 gigamonkey: Thanks for the response. I think I'll prod her to negotiate that in any new contract. By the way, I approved the delay on the book on Amazon, looking forward to getting it this fall. 16:03:38 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 16:03:45 tmh: excellent. 16:05:12 we could talk about gun control instead 16:06:19 -!- Adlai-AWAY is now known as Adlai 16:06:32 heh, I wish I could think of a good idea for a side job, something like consulting work or the equivalent. 16:07:07 *tmh* checks his list. Health Care(x) Gun Control(x) Abortion(x) Lighter Fluid(x) Match(x) 16:07:20 Ok, let's talk politics! 16:07:26 global warming! 16:07:38 *tmh* needs to update his list. 16:08:05 Emacs 23 vs Emacs 22! 16:08:22 .....i wonder how many of these new c.l.l cranks are actually just aliases of 'series expansion'... it's gotten quite odd there since that character made an appearance. 16:08:55 drewc: I've had the same thought. That character seems in desperate need of attention. 16:09:28 Reminds me of my children mis-behaving to get attention. *any* attention is good attention. Or my dog, for that matter. 16:10:31 Am I the only one who finds himself wishing that the C[AD]+R functions had the A's and D's in the reverse order? 16:10:47 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:10:56 gigamonkey: no, but that'd be a great office prank 16:11:22 gigamonkey: I still struggle with remember to use (car (last some-list)) 16:11:31 gigamonkey: nah, that'd be crazy 16:11:38 can't you just move the keycaps? 16:11:42 haha 16:12:32 gigamonkey: why? 16:12:32 Adlai, memo from gigamonkey: you can probably upgrade to a newer version of Emacs. 16:12:45 minion: <3 16:12:46 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``<3''. 16:12:47 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:32 Adlai: I think, "I want the CAR of the CAR of the CDR" so I'd like to write CAADR rather than CDAAR. 16:14:05 Probably best to just write it out, really. 16:14:15 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:14:25 gigamonkey: You probably think that (f o g)(x) ~= g(f(x)) too? 16:14:27 gigamonkey: oh, that's interesting. I thought you meant that you want to have CDR be #'first and CAR be #'rest. 16:14:28 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:39 _mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 16:14:57 gigamonkey: I agree with you -- having it so that (cadr x) represents (car (cdr x)) seems more natural. 16:15:01 -!- fnord123 [n=fnord123@78-105-27-133.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:15:18 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-147-156.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:15:20 well as pkhuong pointed out, there's a mathematical/theoretical reason why the order is as it is. 16:15:21 Sorry, I mean disagree. 16:15:49 kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:16:10 Adlai: both interpretations exist in math too. Americans tend to prefer (f o g) ~= f(g(...)), iirc. 16:16:35 and brits tend to prefer "maths" 16:16:53 gigamonkey: don't you really write caadr when you want "the CAR of the CAR of the CDR"? 16:17:00 but wait. Isn't... what stassats says 16:17:35 stassats: Yeah. I think I explained it wrong. :-O 16:17:37 caddr = third = (car (cdr (cdr x))) 16:17:42 *Xof* briefly got horribly confused. "Wait, what does CADR do?" 16:17:47 fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:17:51 cadr = second 16:17:51 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 16:17:54 (car (cdr x)) 16:17:57 thanks :-) 16:18:07 You're welcome. 16:18:14 Xof: you aren't old-school enough 16:18:17 gigamonkey is clearly trying to get us all to buy his next lisp book 16:18:24 :-) 16:18:25 Maybe it's that I think, "I'm going to take the CDR, then I'm going to take the CAR of that," so I want to write CDAR instead of CADR. 16:18:32 yeah, before we find out it's typeset in MS Word 16:18:44 My original explantion of my thought process was buggy. 16:19:04 Adlai: now, that's just mean. 16:19:09 *malcolm_reynolds* thinks the interpretation of composing functions makes is more intuitive 16:19:18 s/makes// 16:19:29 Xof pasted "penance: any other ways" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84836 16:20:05 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:09 gigamonkey: I'll make it up by -trying- to get this CCL on Windows Lispbox... 16:20:19 prompted by a question someone asked me over lunch, I came up with five ways to automate adding a consistency checking method to a generic function / accessor. Any others? 16:20:49 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C390.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:21:00 *stassats* remembers shuffling a and d between c and r until it does what he wanted 16:23:24 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:23:40 -!- kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:25:09 well ccl works under ubuntu 16:25:52 Xof: what were the five? 16:26:29 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:26:32 jthing: CCL works on Windows, but there's no Lispbox binary for it, yet. 16:30:12 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:35:23 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:36:45 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:36:51 hi, how do I use :use correctly with IN-PACKAGE? (in-package :cl-alsa :use :cl-user) and (in-package :cl-alsa (:use :cl-user)) don't work 16:37:01 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:37:12 you don't use :USE with IN-PACKAGE 16:37:15 why do you think you can use :use? 16:37:29 clhs: in-package 16:37:29 clhs use-package 16:37:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_in_pkg.htm 16:37:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_use_pk.htm 16:37:35 jinx 16:37:44 clhs: defpackage 16:37:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm 16:37:54 k, hm http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node118.html said I could 16:38:04 it's pre-ansi 16:38:11 k 16:38:13 thanks 16:38:18 egn: That's so 1989 16:38:42 Actually, it might be 1984 16:38:43 how to remove a compiler macro? (implementation specific way is ok too) 16:39:36 egn: that page is confusing, and as has been said, out of date. 16:40:06 It does mention though the difference between the in-package function (obsolete) and the macro, and you can see that the macro doesn't take a :use arg. 16:43:08 (setf (compiler-macro-function function) nil) seems to work in sbcl 16:45:30 seems to be portable as well 16:45:33 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@200.25.197.105] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:45:45 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.86.98] has quit [Client Quit] 16:45:58 stassats: Yeah, otherwise (setf (compiler-macro-function fn) #'values) 16:48:28 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:03 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:49:33 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:21 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/session] has joined #lisp 16:51:34 ok, then it should be in the slime inspector 16:52:44 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:53:03 fnord123_ [n=fnord123@78-105-27-133.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:54:24 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:54:48 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 16:57:44 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:58:07 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:58:28 Man, did lulu.com get bought by some big company? Their website is terrible now. Used to be quite straight forward. 16:59:20 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/session] has joined #lisp 16:59:55 Well, ignoring the terribleness, of lulu.com--suppose I was going to write a short book (~100-200) pages about some Lisp topic that would sell for $10-$20. What should it be about? 17:00:25 FORMAT, LOOP, PATHNAMEs and that-io-libwhatsitcalled 17:00:26 ;) 17:00:29 -!- logBot4123 [n=logBot@59.92.177.120] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:00:33 gigamonkey: if you have some ideas about it, what about convincing PHB they should hire lisp programmers? ;-) 17:00:40 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:00:46 matimago: not sure I can help there. 17:01:02 Just say that they are clever and will work for food. 17:01:15 tic: other than that-io-libwhatsitcalled, isn't that stuff mostly covered in PCL? 17:01:50 *tmh* is reminded to review the chapter on binary types. 17:01:53 fnord1231 [n=fnord123@78-105-27-133.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:02:12 binary files, rather 17:02:30 Okay, this is the worst progress bar ever. What is it counting up to? http://www.booksurge2.com/TDFSite/index.html 17:03:17 It's counting up to 'Total Design Freedom', that takes a while. 17:03:45 *tmh* uses LaTeX for 'Total Design Freedom' 17:04:10 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:05:24 -!- fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:05:29 -!- fnord1231 [n=fnord123@78-105-27-133.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 17:07:33 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-241-91.lns10.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:08:14 -!- cpape [n=cpape@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"] 17:11:47 -!- yvdriess [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:13:16 gigamonkey, not in enough depth, I think, but on the other hand, it doesn't merit a whole book either. :/ 17:13:35 gigamonkey, any ideas on your own? 17:13:36 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 17:13:39 s/no/of/ 17:15:08 -!- fnord123_ [n=fnord123@78-105-27-133.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:16:43 tic: well, I was sort of thinking of taking some Lisp library and writing about how it worked. Sort of turn it into a piece of literate code. 17:17:10 gigamonkey, that could be interesting. SBCL? ;) 17:17:32 (you could view the implementation ANSI Common Lisp as a library, or something.) 17:17:43 Seriously though, any particular library you had in mind? 17:17:45 Uh, I said 100-200 pages, not 1,000-2,000. 17:18:00 The main one I was thinking of was Hunchentoot. 17:18:14 Or maybe cl-ppcre 17:18:58 gigamonkey: Were you actually going to make it a literate code document a la Knuth? 17:19:25 cl-ppcre would be a good one; it does some interesting stuff 17:19:36 Both choices are good. 17:19:39 hunchentoot is not that dissimilar to every other webserver in the world 17:19:53 tmh: well, probably not literally literate code that you could compile. But that kind of presentation. 17:20:01 gigamonkey: I would guess that cl-ppcre would be a better choice because it mostly does one thing, rather than providing a whole range of behaviors as in hunchentoot. 17:20:29 gigamonkey: My impression of literate programming is that it works better when there's a nice narrative thread that you get more easily with a simpler thesis. 17:20:49 rsynott: which I think is a feature, for this purpose. 17:20:51 gigamonkey: I think cl-ppcre would also be good because it involves things that you don't really go into in PCL -- compiler macros 17:21:13 But that may come from the constraints of Knuth-style literate code that you compile, rather than a more loose idea of LP, which you seem to be proposing here. 17:21:33 gigamonkey: I have linear algebra library I've been working on, I also used it as a case for learning literate programming. My current draft document is 132 pages. Granted, I should be able to reduce that with some revision for content and formatting. 17:22:10 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:22:34 I use noweb. I like literate programming, but to use it on all my projects would require better tools, some sort of structured editor. 17:22:37 rpg: Yeah. I'm basially just saying, I'd write an explanation of how the code works with probably some asides about other possible ways of doing the same thing. Obviously I'd have to show a lot of the code to write such an explanation. 17:23:36 -!- girzel [n=user@221.223.31.46] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:23:42 Not sure structured is the correct term. An editor that does the code transformation on the fly and bi-directionally. 17:24:08 gigamonkey: I vote for cl-ppcre too 17:26:14 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:26:16 malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:26:54 is there much of a profit margin on lulu.com books? :) 17:27:04 Man. lulu.com doesn't make any sense any more. I used to understand how it works. 17:27:35 (if you're just after the fame and fortune, write a book on how to make webapps in cl) 17:27:44 rsynnott: well, there used to be. I think there still is but mostly if folks buy directly from the Lulu Marketplace rather than, say, Amazon. 17:28:41 gigamonkey: even if you want to do hunchentoot, starting with cl-ppcre might be a good way to figure out what works on a smaller canvas. Good luck! I can't wait to read it. 17:29:08 Are there a quality rating system on Lulu? I've browsed some of the technical books a while back and was not impressed. 17:29:14 *Is* 17:29:25 rpg: well, no guarantees that I'm actually going to do it. Just thinking out loud. 17:29:26 *tmh* pulls out his English reference. 17:29:53 tmh: that's more or less inevitable 17:30:06 even most books put out by proper publishers are very, very bad 17:30:10 juiceman5000 [n=justin@70-89-202-66-invergrove-mn.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:16 -!- juiceman5000 [n=justin@70-89-202-66-invergrove-mn.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 17:30:23 So a self-publisher will have a much lower standard 17:30:32 Sturgeon's Law 17:30:44 rsynnott: Agreed. Even if the content is good, I've noticed that figures and general formatting of recent books can be *very* shoddy. 17:30:48 tmh: the leo editor is such a structured editor for literate programming. I used to use it for everything. 17:31:07 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-083-015.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 17:31:26 (If you want really terrifyingly awful, try PublishAmerica, which says it is a real publisher but actually publishes all manuscripts sent in. They make most of their money off authors buying their own book to sell it themselves) 17:31:42 drewc: You recommended that before, but it's not quite what I'm looking for and didn't fit my work flow. I know what I want, it doesn't exist and I don't have the time at the moment to create it. :-) 17:32:09 A science fiction writers' organisation managed to have them publish a book with one chapter written in a made-up language and another repeated about eight times :) 17:32:13 *tmh* looks at the leo editor again, anyway. 17:32:13 tmh: I'm now using emacs + org-mode + my own hacks, fwiw :) 17:32:29 I don't suspect Lulu.com is any different in that regard. 17:33:10 Alright, let's get rich. Self-publishing+reddit :-) 17:33:15 gigamonkey: oh, but lulu doesn't claim to have standards for accepting books :) 17:33:34 rsynnott: ah. 17:33:37 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:33:42 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:52 rsynnott: I'm ok with that, accept anything and let the cream rise to the top. 17:34:15 Looks like BookSurge (which is part of/affiliated with Amazon) might be a better way to go these days. 17:34:15 (the fake real publishers who make money off authors buying own books tend to get the very bottom of the barrel, mostly very naive people who haven't investigated the publishing industry at all) 17:34:16 You get 35% royalties on books sold through Amazon. 17:34:45 I wonder do you do better for kindle books 17:34:46 ... and 10% on others. And 10% is about what you get from a "real" publisher. 17:34:52 you really SHOULD 17:36:36 Nice, booksurge has ratings. Although, the technical & engineering section has some weird items. 17:36:47 tmh: where? 17:36:53 gigamonkey: Is BookSurge the print-on-demand thing? 17:37:09 tmh: unfortunately, ratings are not always trustable 17:37:11 gigamonkey: I followed the bookstore link and then the technical and engineering link. 17:37:17 rsynnott: agreed 17:37:32 (there have been cases of authors using Amazon's own mechanical turk service to have random peoples give their books positive reviews) 17:37:40 sellout: yes, but it's part of Amazon. So apparently you also get better treatment from Amazon, in terms of on-Amazon promotion, if you publish with them, rather than, say, Lulu. 17:37:41 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:37:51 Right. 17:38:20 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 17:38:32 gigamonkey: did you not need to give the PCL publisher some sort of right of first refusal on other books, or something? 17:38:56 rsynnott: nah. I'm not an indentured servant. 17:39:09 They do have the right to do a 2nd ed. of PCL without me if I'm not interested. 17:39:15 I think the ratings are from Amazon. We can still get rich. Online publisher + reddit + "qualified" reviewers. I'm sure getting "qualified" reviewers is easy. 17:40:33 The booksurge categorization logic is seriously flawed. 17:41:17 *gigamonkey* is very tired of reading English that doesn't explain what it purports to explain. 17:42:47 I don't understand why Booksurge even has a bookstore. Why not just use Amazon? 17:44:44 to avoid paying a sales tax to amazon ? 17:44:58 they bought it; these big companies often take a while to properly integrate new aquisitions 17:45:53 They bought it in April 2005... 17:46:55 oh 17:48:35 How long did it take MS to migrate Hotmail from FreeBSD? 17:49:13 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-90-175-82.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:49:29 tmh: That's a little different, I think. 17:49:48 It says at the bottom of the page "Web business powered by Amazon WebStore" 17:51:13 google took a good three years or so to integrate feedburner into their auth system 17:51:24 -!- vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:49 (Feedburner is one of Google's less-loved properties; it even still have the '.do' fake extensions on URLs that people used to use for Java servlets) 17:52:01 Okay. lulu.com has lost any potential business I might do with with their terrible website. 17:52:19 (I always suspected that that was caused ultimately by a tutorial about a decade ago; it isn't part of the spec or anything) 17:52:29 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 17:53:05 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:55:01 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:56:29 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:01:05 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:01:34 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 18:02:18 benbelly [n=bholm1@cpe-74-67-149-169.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:08:28 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:42 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:10:54 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.233.240] has joined #lisp 18:13:09 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:17:44 -!- rstandy` 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#lisp 19:20:53 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Client Quit] 19:21:05 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 19:23:04 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@dyn57-55.yok.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 19:25:12 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 19:27:31 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:27:31 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-55.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 19:29:30 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 19:31:12 Wombatzu` [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:12 -!- Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:31:44 francogrex [n=franco@87.65.60.49] has joined #lisp 19:32:18 Today I was discussing an old facility called "Iterate" have you heard of it? 19:32:26 http://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/iterate-manual.pdf 19:32:46 everyone heard of it 19:33:18 not everyone, why would you say that? 19:33:29 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:33:29 anyway, do you like it? 19:34:30 -!- Wombatzu` [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:34:36 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@untangle.jay.k12.me.us] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:35:25 It doesn't matter whether or not I like, the only thing that matters is whether you like it. 19:35:38 I prefer series for my alternative looping 19:36:41 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:37:40 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:37:54 tmh: well I do because of this especially: loop’s lack of extensibility is a more serious problem... 19:38:20 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-083-015.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:38:21 iterate seems much more extensible 19:38:35 and more compatible with the rest of lisp 19:39:03 dlowe: yeah, i was reading about series, will try to explore them later as well 19:39:47 screw loops, true men do everything with tail-recursion 19:39:49 milanj [n=milan@212.200.223.193] has joined #lisp 19:40:11 francogrex: Where I work we use iterate extensively. 19:40:13 stassats: yeah right 19:40:25 :) 19:40:46 I swear, PHP has some stuff just totally wrong it feels. 19:41:05 rpg: may I ask (not where) but in which domain? 19:41:20 Two big advantages for us: (1) the use of nested conditionals isn't a horror as in LOOP (and emacs can indent it properly!); (2) multiple values fit into the syntax of iterate (because it's CL), but not into LOOP. 19:41:21 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host230.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 19:41:34 TDT: I keep hearing the same things from other Lisp/Scheme programmers. 19:41:37 francogrex: Different domains. AI planning; computer secutiry. 19:41:42 SECURITY 19:42:09 pbusser3: This is my frustration: http://paste.lisp.org/display/84848 19:42:35 francogrex: I desperately need coffee, and must meet a co-worker. So I am off to the coffee house. I should be back on w/in 30 minutes and could give more details. 19:42:36 TDT: Please don't show me any PHP code. I can make head nor tail of it. 19:42:38 hey, let's not talk about PHP here 19:42:47 rpg: good to know. Do you think if i load all iterate directly into the common-lisp-user it would cause clashes? 19:42:49 or python 19:42:54 -!- Deus-Imperator is now known as Elench 19:43:02 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 19:43:07 francogrex: I don't believe so, but that's implementation dependent. 19:43:24 stassats: Yeah, I know it's horribly off topic, just from a language standpoint it's to demo how insanely stupid something like this is handled. 19:43:27 e.g., I think ACL's Cl-user has a lot of EXCL loaded into it, but SBCL is a lot more vanilla. 19:43:34 back in a few... 19:43:36 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 19:44:18 (mapcar 'package-name (package-use-list :cl-user)) => ("COMMON-LISP" "SB-ALIEN" "SB-DEBUG" "SB-EXT" "SB-GRAY" "SB-PROFILE") 19:44:32 rpg: I ask because I was advised in the newgroup to dump all iterate by using use-package 19:44:48 why bother about cl-user, anyway? 19:45:23 stassats: what do you mean, it's the main package 19:45:34 -!- konr is now known as konr|away 19:45:42 main package? how come? 19:45:45 gonzojive [n=red@c-76-21-118-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:06 isn't common-lisp-user the default? 19:46:33 it's default, but you don't use it in your code 19:47:36 ok 19:48:18 how do you make a package or a loadable fas file automatically load when you start you Cl system? 19:48:31 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:48:47 The init file 19:48:54 implementation dependant 19:48:55 SBCL -> .sbclrc 19:49:11 CCL -> ccl-init.lisp 19:49:36 Generally, what stassats said. 19:49:51 ok; i see 19:50:02 .ccl-init.lisp too 19:50:04 The init file contains CL code? 19:50:21 pbusser3: Yep 19:50:27 Makes sense. 19:50:44 Is Let over Lambda a good book? 19:51:15 have you read PAIP, for example, already? 19:51:37 No. But I am going to order it tomorrow or so. 19:52:05 don't how good LoL is, but i'm PAIP is better 19:52:05 I'm also looking at Object Oriented Programming in Common Lisp and Art of Metaobject Programming. 19:52:20 s/i'm/i'm sure/ 19:52:23 pbusser3: I don't consider the code I've seen from it to be good style 19:52:33 Does PAIP cover roughly the same subjects? 19:52:48 PAIP is more AI tha common lisp 19:52:54 really? 19:53:02 uh, rubbish 19:53:20 francogrex: it's more Lisp than AI. 19:53:28 that's what said in the book itself; chapter 20 I guess 19:53:38 francogrex: you took the wrong lesson from it 19:53:51 sellout: not what peter norvig himself claims 19:54:31 Are Object Oriented Programming in Common Lisp and Art of Metaobject Programming any good? 19:54:32 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 19:54:42 Yes 19:54:56 stipet [n=user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:54:58 I really must get AMOP 19:55:01 pbusser3: I don't like the Slade book; it's pre-ANSI, doesn't acknowledge that, and is very superficial 19:55:04 AMOP is excellent 19:55:09 last time I tried Amazon was being difficult 19:55:26 (as it is all I know has been gleaned from reading over and modifying elephant) 19:55:27 who's Slade? 19:55:31 AMOP is excellent, but also rather specialized 19:55:34 Krystof: Slade book = OOPiCL? 19:55:51 I was referring to Keene. 19:56:13 Stephen Slade wrote a book called Object Oriented Common Lisp 19:56:15 don't get that one 19:56:18 francogrex: I don't have my copy in front of me, but I'm guessing he means that the techniques are not limited to Lisp. However, since he uses Lisp to illustrate them, it's very much about Lisp. 19:56:23 the book by Sonya Keene is fine, as is AMOP 19:57:02 Xach: I don't think so: read carefully especially page 20 here: http://www.hpc.unm.edu/~download/abqlispscheme/archives/Earl.Spillar-Paradigms_of_Artificial_Intelligence.pdf 19:57:10 Yes, Sonya Keene wrote the book I was referring to. 19:57:11 you can't learn AI from reading PAIP 19:58:44 -!- weirdo [i=foo123@c139-243.icpnet.pl] has quit [] 19:58:48 the best ref for me remains: Graham-ANSI Common Lisp 19:58:50 Well, it's my intention to learn CL better. If I also learn a little bit of AI, then that wouldn't hurt. 19:58:55 francogrex: who's Earl Spillar? 19:59:33 francogrex: awww, I was hoping that was a PDF of PAIP. Was going to make my Kindle very happy. 19:59:35 stassats: a very smart person 19:59:56 francogrex: i think that point is incorrect. at the end of reading the book, you will be able to write reasonably modern Common Lisp programs, but not reasonably modern AI programs. 20:00:16 sellout; PAIP is expensive but worth the money. It's too difficult for me but! 20:00:33 Xach: AFAIK PAIP is almost 20 years old, it would surprise me if it was still up-to-date on the AI part. 20:00:34 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:00:36 the AI projects are good ways to learn some AI history, some useful AI tools, and some good Lisp style. 20:00:41 Xach: probably but anyway, it's quite difficult 20:00:45 AI-ish 20:00:46 francogrex: I already own it ... but it is heavier than my Kindle ;) 20:01:03 pbusser3: even at the time it was much more of a historical review 20:01:07 sellout: it's heavier than my laptop FFS :_ 20:01:09 sellout: what's your "Kindle"? 20:01:10 pbusser3: if you want more modern AI, try AIMA :) 20:01:13 Xach: That's why I need to study PAIP, I think there is potential for applying rule-based AI techniques to product design. 20:01:13 -!- _mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:01:34 Even though rule-based AI doesn't appear to be state of the art. 20:01:37 the tools that fell out of the AI discussed in PAIP are still quite useful 20:01:45 michaelw: I'm having enough difficulty grocking CL at the moment. So thanks, but no thanks. :-) 20:01:51 maybe they've gone into the "if we understand it, it's not AI" bucket 20:02:12 there's been a general trend away from that whole approach to AI, hasn't there? 20:02:16 michaelw: that's heavy pure AI 20:02:20 Xach: Heh! 20:02:35 It's only AI if we don't understand it. 20:02:59 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 20:03:04 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-083-015.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:09 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:03:15 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 20:03:39 *pbusser3* first needs some more natural intelligence before I try to implement the artificial kind. 20:06:12 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:06:21 rpg [n=rpg@c-75-73-49-33.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:45 francogrex: back. 20:07:51 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:03 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A676.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:11:02 how expensive is multiple-value-bind if it's not actually needed? 20:11:36 Why use it if it's not needed? 20:11:46 macro? 20:11:56 tmh: what stassats said 20:12:04 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:12:16 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-66-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:41 michaelw: define not needed? What's the values-producing form too? 20:12:52 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-160-163-167.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:13:03 I don't follow what stassats was implying. 20:13:36 Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:45 weirdo [n=sthalik@c146-247.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:13:52 oh hi 20:13:53 tmh: you generate a form which may be not used 20:14:01 where's the slime git repo? can't find through google 20:14:10 like (let () ...) 20:14:24 weirdo: git://git.boinkor.net/slime.git 20:14:27 thx 20:15:00 s0ber [i=pie@118-168-232-133.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:12 *tmh* is feeling particularly dense at the moment, may need more coffee, or should simply focus on actual work and quit context switching between #lisp and work. 20:15:24 multiple-value-bind is pretty cheap at any rate 20:15:30 pkhuong: say, if a macro expands to (multiple-value-bind (x y z) (foo) ...) where (foo) will only produce one value 20:15:58 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:16:11 I was asking because there is let and mv-bind, and prog1 and mv-prog1, etc. 20:16:27 cheap 20:16:31 ok 20:16:38 if you're really concerned, benchmark 20:17:06 for most things it should be noise -- but there are always applications where every cycle matters 20:17:11 m-v-bind expands to a lambda with &optional 20:17:19 rpg: yeah, I was asking whether dumping the whole iterate directly into the common-lisp-user is ok and you said something like 20:17:41 michaelw: Except for m-v-b, the others are special operators. When I notice stuff like that, the first thing I do is macroexpand the macro. 20:18:00 rpg: it would depend. (I was afraid of clashes if used outside packages). How do you use it? 20:18:04 For my own benefit. 20:19:25 rpg: maybe we take this to a query between us not to bother people here or how do people here prefer two discuss something in public even if no general ineterest? 20:19:48 s/two/to 20:20:37 tmh: prog1 is a macro 20:20:57 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.233.240] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:21:09 Oh, so it is, I didn't bother to check that one. 20:21:39 michaelw: if foo is known to only produce one value (inline/local/type declared function), there shouldn't be any overhead. 20:22:53 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-a4482ddb1133ad50] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:23:27 francogrex: i don't think it's a good idea to develop application code in cl-user. 20:23:54 nikodemus pasted "m-v-b" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84857 20:24:43 on eg x86, if the number of values is at most 3 that is what you get 20:24:51 -!- Adlai is now known as Adlai-AWAY 20:24:55 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:24:58 Xach: so you would keep for example iterate as a separate package and use in-package? 20:25:00 actually 1 What's that register shuffling? 20:25:36 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [] 20:25:37 feah. 1< N <= 3 20:25:39 francogrex: no. 20:25:54 notice the argument order in the call to BAR 20:25:59 francogrex: i would make a package called MY-GREAT-APP that uses iterate, or imports all the iterate symbols i need. 20:26:08 nikodemus: Right 20:26:31 *Xach* has been using CL for a long time and only just recently learned that IMPORT does not care about export status of the symbols it imports 20:26:39 (plus some myopia on python's part) 20:28:18 Xach: you can even import homeless symbols :) 20:28:41 michaelw: mein gott! 20:28:50 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:28:56 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:29:06 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 20:29:38 calling me "Mister" is really good enough 20:31:37 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.211] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:31:56 Xach: i've always felt that was a wart -- given that there is no :use-from clause in defpackage that would be like :import-from, but woud refuse to import unexported things 20:32:38 -!- rpg [n=rpg@c-75-73-49-33.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:32:43 on can still do (:import-from :foo foo:bar), i suppose, and rely on the reader to complain, but that's a bit ugly 20:32:53 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-76-21-118-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:33:40 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.211] has joined #lisp 20:33:54 nikodemus: i suppose i'd go more with "omission" than "wart" 20:34:23 it seems like a decent way to re-export selected functionality from not-for-normal-consumption system-ish packages 20:34:53 but i've only just learned about it, not actually used it 20:34:59 sykopomp` [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:36:07 I find it useful that, e.g., :shadow-import-from will work with unexported symbols. 20:36:41 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:37:24 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:37:27 rpg [n=rpg@c-75-73-49-33.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:49 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:39:40 -!- Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:40:10 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:40:11 -!- benbelly [n=bholm1@cpe-74-67-149-169.rochester.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 20:40:14 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 20:41:53 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:43:58 *francogrex* is away 20:44:00 -!- francogrex [n=franco@87.65.60.49] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:46:28 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:47:18 -!- stipet [n=user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["sleepytime"] 20:47:45 luis: not portably 20:49:47 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:18 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:50:24 jthing: looks pretty portable to me. 20:50:52 guille_ [n=user@8.Red-79-153-137.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:58 hello 20:52:01 http://omploader.org/vMjNyaw "Parentheses? What are you talking about?" 20:54:28 sykopomp: hubris is nice and fine, but you would be seriously hampered in understanding CL code were they completely invisible 20:54:36 sykopomp: I use that too. It's surprisingly effective in getting rid of parenthesis prejudice. 20:55:31 michaelw: I can still see the parens fairly well. I tweaked the color to my screen's contrast, of course. 20:55:51 Can you convince a person that your brain does that after a while without tweaking the editor? 20:56:20 francogrex [n=franco@87.65.60.49] has joined #lisp 20:56:51 I looked at my implementation for init files and in the src I saw this: *lisp-init-file-list* '("~/.ecl" "~/.eclrc") 20:57:14 but I have nowhere anything like /.ecl or /.eclrc 20:57:46 You're on winders? 20:57:58 tmh: toning down, possibly; invisible, I doubt that actually happens 20:58:59 tmh: yes windows 21:01:16 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:01:29 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:03:02 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:03:52 francogrex: I don't see anything in the manual that describes how that behaves on winders. I would try to put .eclrc in "C:\Documents and Settings\User" and see if that works. 21:04:21 WhiteFlam [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:01 tmh: didn't work. I think i'll try to recompile ecl but add something to the list like "c:/~.ecl" maybe? 21:07:22 No, I don't think that will work. 21:07:37 would that mean any file with .ecl extension is loadable? why it douldn't work? 21:08:00 and if i add a sepcif file like "c:/initload.fas" 21:08:01 You need to figure out what directory ~ resolves to on Windows. 21:08:11 -!- konr|away [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit ["leaving"] 21:08:14 A specific file will work as well. 21:08:36 ah ok, how to find out where ~ is on my windows 21:08:37 But, I would make it a lisp file. 21:08:49 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:53 I'm not sure, I only use winders when required. 21:09:01 I'll add both lisp an fas 21:09:50 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 21:10:08 -!- konr is now known as konr|away 21:10:14 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:10:19 Xach: i don't object to importing as such -- just woe the lack of selective useing. omission may be indeed a better word 21:11:10 and if I add "c:/.ecl" does it mean that eny .ecl file extension in c will work? 21:12:26 francogrex: .ecl is a dotfile. 21:12:45 francogrex: it's a 'hidden' file called 'ecl' 21:12:54 No, it means that "C:/.ecl" will work. 21:13:12 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:44 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has joined #lisp 21:14:45 i see 21:15:38 gonzojive [n=red@c-76-21-118-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:56 does SBCL support threads on Solaris? 21:17:12 wchogg [n=wchogg@host-245-159.pubnet.pdx.edu] has joined #lisp 21:19:04 Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:04 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2C086.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:47 scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-70-51.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:33 mjf [n=mjf@r5ba205.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 21:26:17 -!- xenosoz1 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:27:33 sykopomp: is it like .emacs? because .emacs is not hidden on mys system. maybe a .file in linux means hidden but windows it's not really 21:29:03 It just like .emacs. Where is .emacs? 21:30:30 luis: http://jsnell.iki.fi/blog/archive/2006-04-26-sbcl-solaris-x86-threading.html 21:30:30 luis: on x86oids, I think so. 21:31:48 aiee sb-introspect contrib failed its tests 21:32:59 tmh, it's on my c:/ drive, but writing .eclrc and storing on my c:/ isn't doing anything 21:33:21 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:34:32 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["restarting emacs"] 21:34:48 tmh: ok now it works 21:35:15 i needed to add the dot that I forgot. It's indeed on my c 21:35:29 tmh: thanks 21:36:57 francogrex: use Emacs and type C-x C-f ~/.ecl 21:37:41 the correct placement is somewhere under your homedir, don't remember exact place. Is that a cygwin/msys-compiled ECL? 21:37:46 Or native windows ECL? 21:38:34 oh hi how do i run contrib's tests manually? 21:39:32 weirdo pasted "how to run contrib tests?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84861 21:40:58 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.211] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:40:59 -!- Scorpiaum is now known as ausente 21:41:03 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C390.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 21:41:58 hmm, and I see there's a x86-64-sunos-os.c, the platform table said solaris/x86-64 was not available 21:42:04 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:42:12 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:45:30 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [] 21:45:50 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:50:59 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-24-191.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:51:45 -!- guille_ [n=user@8.Red-79-153-137.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:52:41 luis: maybe it doesn't work yet 21:53:00 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 21:57:15 p_l: sorry i was away. it is an msys compiled ECL on windows XP 21:57:50 but it works now it is on my c:/ drive and loads automatically when i boot my ecl lisp 21:59:32 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:57 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 22:05:36 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:08:31 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit ["bye"] 22:08:59 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 22:09:28 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:10:02 skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 22:11:38 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:15:01 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:16:56 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-24-191.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:18:08 -!- francogrex [n=franco@87.65.60.49] has quit [] 22:18:25 hmmm... I haven't ever used msys ecl, only native 22:19:01 native as in "no posix elements included" 22:19:28 saikat [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:21 weirdo pasted "failed test" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84863 22:25:26 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:25 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:29:00 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:32:28 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:33:05 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:35:17 thedonvaughn [i=jvaughn@unaffiliated/printk] has joined #lisp 22:35:21 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 22:36:36 kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:47 -!- thedonvaughn [i=jvaughn@unaffiliated/printk] has left #lisp 22:44:02 -!- kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:46:23 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [] 22:49:15 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:49:18 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-142-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:44 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [] 22:52:16 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:55:24 rpg_ [n=rpg@c-75-73-49-33.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:40 weirdo: thanks 22:59:10 no, thank you! 22:59:53 my refactoring the tests missed the return value there 23:00:09 the test is broken -- sb-introspect is fine 23:00:50 nikodemus pasted "fix" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84865 23:01:15 nikodemus: good to know. I was bisecting to find the bug :D 23:01:44 if you replace the previous THREAD-TAI2 in contrib/sb-introspect/test-driver.lisp with that, does it work then? 23:02:06 (no need to rebuild everything -- just run "sh make-target-contrib.sh" 23:02:53 anyways, i'll commit a fix tomorrow morning -- now it's bedtime 23:02:54 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:04:42 pkhuong: you're right, global value numbering isn't really appropriate for unboxing floats... 23:05:14 pkhuong: if you have x = box_float(x'); ... y = box_float(y'); ... z = phi(x,y); ... z' = unbox_float(z); 23:05:32 pkhuong: I don't know of any GVN algorithm which will replace the definition of z with a new phi node z' = phi(x',y') 23:06:02 -!- rpg_ [n=rpg@c-75-73-49-33.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:06:28 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.223.193] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:07:18 -!- WhiteFlam [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:07:41 still might be patchable. An ad hoc analysis mught be enough for floats. You're already losing if you box. 23:08:17 I want to do untagged fixnums too 23:08:21 (on the phpne, so can't really chat though) 23:08:27 np 23:12:38 -!- rpg [n=rpg@c-75-73-49-33.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:14:07 is anyone else here going to lukefest '09 on friday? 23:16:43 -!- nerdshark [n=dorkfish@74-131-37-143.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:16:51 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:17:25 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.196.32] has joined #lisp 23:18:49 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:17 LuciusMare [n=tomas@187.110.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:19:25 hello 23:19:29 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:19:29 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:19:32 -!- jao [n=jao@21.Red-83-43-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:19:40 lame question,where did you learn lisp from? 23:19:44 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r5ba205.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:20:19 minion: tell LuciusMare about pcl 23:20:19 LuciusMare: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 23:20:20 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:28 Rubix [n=Rubix@pool-70-22-229-101.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:29 p_l: nope, it seems to work with a minor tweak to the Makefile. Though not with threads. 23:21:46 rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:47 mjf [n=mjf@r5ba205.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:22:02 -!- LuciusMare [n=tomas@187.110.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:22:10 -!- Rubix [n=Rubix@pool-70-22-229-101.bos.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 23:22:42 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r5ba205.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 23:24:14 looks like sbcl type inference has gotten better 23:24:30 i forgot to return a hash in a local function in a LOOP body and it reminded me 23:24:46 minion, memo? 23:24:47 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``memo''. 23:27:44 http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Probabilistic_Choice#Common_Lisp 23:27:50 anyone can shorten this code further? 23:28:30 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-76-21-118-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:28:57 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.210.45] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 23:34:47 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:35:20 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:36:33 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:37:20 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has joined #lisp 23:37:20 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 23:42:11 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-142-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:44:45 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-109-91.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:46:12 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:33 weirdo: I'd expect that to have worked since almost forever. Inferring local function types isn't new. 23:51:24 i wonder about deriving types for global functions 23:51:28 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:51:40 it could potentially help during development 23:51:59 weirdo: sb-ext:*derive-function-types*. 23:52:06 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-109-91.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:52:20 too bad types for CONS aren't derived, there are no recursive types and no type "list with all elts of type X" 23:52:27 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229079111.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 23:52:32 yeah. but did you ever use it during development? 23:52:40 weirdo: simple: don 23:52:43 t use lists. 23:52:56 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 23:53:09 i'm not talking about performance but correctness 23:53:16 hmm 23:53:20 i'll go with structs probably 23:53:32 pkhuong: I realized that my SSA coalescing algorithm still works if there are multiple defs of a vreg as long as they're all in the same basic block 23:53:50 pkhuong: this means I can move x86 two-operand conversion to before SSA destruction/coalescing, and get rid of the separate coalescing pass from the linear scan allocator :) 23:54:33 neat. I guess you want to do that only at the very end for the other analyses' sake. 23:54:50 yeah, after SSA is eliminated there are no more optimizations 23:55:04 just things like inserting GC checks, building the stack frame layout, etc 23:58:24 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:59:03 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:59:52 drakma is handing me a byte vector instead of a string response. how should I convert this into a string?