00:03:16 hellp 00:04:37 Has someone written up a comparison between ASDF, Mudballs, XCVB (I am aware that they have different scope)? 00:05:21 can someone give me a hand setting up a nice environment to play around with LISP on an ubuntu machine? 00:05:59 lacrymology: http://unya.wordpress.com/2009/06/07/linux-common-lisp-quickstart/ 00:07:17 it might not necessarily be the "best", but it would setup a working environment 00:08:05 lacrymology: you can start by installing emacs, slime, and sbcl from synaptic. You might want to use clbuild when you get more serious, as described in p_l's link (it's not hard). 00:09:03 also, my instructions cover getting current slime. I'm not sure if I'd trust debian-related repository for lisp packages. Emacs & SBCL, yes, but not SLIME or libraries 00:10:02 p_l: nice 00:10:38 thanks a lot 00:10:56 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:11:36 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-44-171.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:12:46 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:13:04 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-28-22.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:13:19 myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-188-130.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 00:15:23 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 00:17:42 luis: thaks :) 00:18:24 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 00:19:31 p_l: it'd be nice if clbuild could download a SBCL binary for the initial bootstrappping 00:20:07 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Success] 00:20:33 luis: I was thinking of making an equivalent of clbuild (that could share clbuild's project lists) for windows. Now, that would help a lot :) 00:20:45 gh7d395pi69wd [n=asdf@unaffiliated/gh7d395pi69wd] has joined #lisp 00:20:52 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:56 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:22:15 p_l: doesn't clbuild work on msys? 00:22:21 or cygwin 00:22:36 luis: I meant *native* solution. No msys, no cygwin 00:22:41 -!- Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:23:04 <_3b> make one that does dependencies for unknown projects better, instead of an exact copy :) 00:23:16 maybe some usage of links, because XP should die 00:23:29 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:59 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:25:18 _3b: heh. I was thinking of simple, prepackaged set of version control tools, installer for Emacs-W32 and CLI&GUI for managing repository of projects on your computer 00:30:29 p_l: how about packaging msys? ;-) 00:30:42 luis: NO WAI 00:32:14 it'd be pretty useful for packages that need gcc you know 00:32:17 maybe as "optional dependency", but definitely not a required part 00:32:39 luis: I'd prefer to compile them with cl.exe, you know :D 00:33:10 Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:39 p_l: can you compile SBCL with cl.exe? 00:34:27 luis: SBCL, not, but I was planning on packaging CCL 00:34:53 CCL's runtime is compilable with cl.exe? 00:35:14 luis: Haven't really checked, but it works nicely with threads on win64 ;-0 00:35:16 *;-) 00:35:47 I wonder if there's some project that has FFI definitions for windows libs 00:37:12 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-119.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:06 p_l: hmm. h-to-ffi.sh doesn't work on Windows? 00:39:56 hypno: haven't really checked. But it would be nice to have more "lispy" bindings :-) 00:39:56 p_l: ccl too depends on a C compiler for complete bootstrap. the fact that they distribute a core through svn hides this 00:40:21 fe[nl]ix: I know, but I really abhor including msys or cygwin :/ 00:41:44 p_l: ccl uses mingw for bootstrap. I can't see what you have against it 00:42:36 p_l: well, true, but h-to-ffi.sh has been nothing short of impressive (let alone the ffi itself). i think it's about as close to "automatic" C header conversion to lisp ffi there is. 00:42:59 hypno: dunno, I used SWIG for my work on TokyoCabinet&co 00:43:15 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 00:43:49 though I was aiming for CFFI bindings 00:44:54 well, in any case, for a CCL-shipped packaged thing for newbies, i think it would be helpful to have that included. (if that is your goal) 00:45:57 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 00:47:56 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:48:01 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:49:01 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:49:13 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 00:52:23 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-be65bb782d9fc6c7] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:54:40 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 00:55:44 jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 00:59:21 ok I understand asdf does this, but could someone go into some detail on how to "include" or load files? other times I tried lisp I found myself opening each file and compiling them into SLIME, and it's quite embarrasing 01:00:24 lacrymology: you do: (push "/my/package/" asdf:*central-registry*) and then (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :package), provided there's a .asd file for the package. 01:01:59 lacrymology: don't forget last '/' in directory path 01:03:08 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-119.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:04:09 hypno: so it'd be a (push.. per package and then one ..asdf:load-op :package) right? 01:04:48 lacrymology: i find that scheme easiest, yes. 01:04:48 -!- kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:05:12 lacrymology: basically, you add paths to where your *.asd files are located (mind you, you can put symlinks of all of them in one dir and push only that dir - it will follow symlinks to find proper directory) 01:05:12 and I an do any extra pushes in each directory's .asd file? 01:05:41 Having one directory with symlinks to the asdfs is a lot simpler, if you have symlinks. 01:05:58 lacrymology: and you also generally either set up the asdf-stuff in your lisps startup/init file. 01:06:30 (or you load all the stuff you need and dump a new image and use that image with all stuff included) 01:12:18 minion: memo for Krystof: re your syncing use case, it sounds like a useful function would be that changes are transferred between machine as possible, not manually, to reduce the chance of not having the data when you're disconnected. (i.e. sync now, merge later) 01:12:19 Remembered. I'll tell Krystof when he/she/it next speaks. 01:12:32 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:13:06 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:29 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:18:23 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:18:37 timchen1` [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 01:20:20 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:20:45 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 01:20:51 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:21:56 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:22:03 hypno: got hung at the phone. I'm kind of lost at "your lisps startup/init file" 01:22:43 lacrymology: most lisps have a startup file they load when you start the lisp. just like ".bashrc" or ".emacs" or what have you. 01:23:46 by my lisp I'm guessing we're talking about sbcl 01:23:49 lacrymology: if you put the asdf-stuff in that file, the lisp implementation will load all that at boot time, meaning you do not have to do an extra LOAD or type it all in again. 01:24:16 great 01:25:13 I think I might add a hook to just load $PWD/init.asd, though.. that'd work if I run emacs at my project's root, right? 01:25:18 -!- Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:25:26 i mostly use other implementations, so you will have to look up what the file is named in the documentation. 01:25:50 yeah, I'm man-ing already 01:26:35 -!- synic [n=squish@pdpc/supporter/student/synic] has quit ["leaving"] 01:26:45 it's ~/.sbclrc 01:26:54 well, there you go. 01:33:44 <``Erik> echo "(require 'asdf)" >> ~/.sbclrc 01:34:51 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:38:45 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:06 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:41:50 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-160-33-122.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:32 lacrymology: FWIW, clbuild handles all that mess for you, and also downloads and installs libraries and their dependencies. 01:47:37 minion: clbuild? 01:47:38 clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 01:48:36 "fluent in functional programming and continuation-passing style." "Fluent in ... CPS"? 01:50:06 somebody's resume? 01:50:40 I take it you're questioning the reasonableness of that claim? 01:51:47 It's a job requirement. I'm having trouble grasping what that's supposed to mean, and how any interpretation could be important. 01:52:46 well, there are contexts where you write what is essentially CPS 01:53:02 think "callbacks" 01:53:12 "invoke this function when you have my answer" 01:53:29 I think AJAX stuff has some of that flavor 01:53:59 Definitely. But, "fluency"? What's that supposed to mean? The transformation from direct style can be purely mechanical. 01:54:23 no, I'm talking about writing directly in partial CPS. 01:55:46 right... But that's not hard to understand at all. 01:56:34 I say it can be hard to think about. And that may be the skill they're looking for. 01:57:56 (now, I/we would argue that in the end thinking about that is *easier* than certain other things (shared memory threads/full continuations), but *any* of these is something to be learned) 01:58:16 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 02:02:47 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:03:31 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:48 pkhuong: lol .. i just came here to comment on that. 02:08:14 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:54 "Experience with search algorithms is also desirable. Advanced applicants should also have expert-level JavaScript, not just Prototype/jQuery." 02:09:43 pkhuong, drewc: link please? 02:09:53 p_l: planet.lisp.org 02:10:44 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:11:31 .... weird 02:15:02 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:17:10 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 02:17:25 so.. is format turing-complete? ... 02:18:36 Given ~\, probably. 02:18:50 I mean ~/ 02:18:58 Zhivago: what does it do? 02:19:20 Calls the named function. 02:19:30 that doesn't count 02:19:44 piso_ [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:52 but ~* makes it pretty much a turing machine =) 02:20:40 ShadowChild [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 02:20:49 <_3b> hard to save/restore any state though 02:21:43 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:08 wakeup_vanuber [n=wakeup@koln-5d816a51.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 02:23:09 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:25:13 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 02:28:20 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p9035-ipngn101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:28:25 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:05 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:31:39 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-160-33-122.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:32:48 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:35:20 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:38:58 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d817ca1.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:40:27 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:41:13 -!- lacrymology [n=lacrymol@6-64-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit ["leaving"] 02:42:40 -!- piso_ is now known as piso 02:44:59 Demosthenes [n=demo@host-66-235-80-184.warpspeed1.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:54 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@c-76-124-142-226.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:15 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy 02:52:14 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-02021992409aac99] has joined #lisp 02:53:47 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit ["leaving"] 02:54:25 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 02:58:53 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 02:58:53 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:00:03 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:17 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:02:56 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:56 gko [n=Keca@114-137-11-86.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:12 is there some utility function in alexandria perhaps which "consumes" &key parameters so they do not show up in &rest? it seems like something one might do often 03:07:34 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@c-76-124-142-226.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:08:33 hm, or well i can perhaps just add an extra set of parens and have two &rests for this macro i think 03:10:07 yes, trying to mix up keyword args with other rest-args is not a good idea. and in a macro using extra parens instead is a good idea. 03:15:55 ilitirit_ [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 03:16:25 Hmm. Is there a reason to have ' and ` separate, except to avoid needing to search for contained ,s without a `? 03:17:05 -!- ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:18:02 ' more clearly indicates the intent not to unquote. 03:18:02 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:18:15 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@c-76-124-142-226.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:30 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy 03:18:48 Also: ((lambda (x) `(,x ',x)) '(lambda (x) `(,x ',x))) 03:19:11 Yes, that's true. 03:19:40 ` delimits where the unquoting should acquire its values from. 03:23:36 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-44.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:26:13 girzel [n=user@61.51.238.208] has joined #lisp 03:27:59 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-119.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:31 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-44.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:29:34 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:38 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-44.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:31:40 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:48:39 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:49:12 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:05 -!- lujz` [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-20-92.dynamic.amis.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:58:10 -!- azuk` [i=azure@s2.org] has left #lisp 04:00:11 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@c-76-124-142-226.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:00:34 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:06:28 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 04:09:08 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:09:52 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit ["leaving"] 04:10:11 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 04:16:49 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:17:04 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 04:17:04 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-119.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:17:50 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:19:55 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:07 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:26 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 04:24:44 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 04:32:28 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:35:23 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:56 drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-208.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:38:20 drafael2 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-213.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:42:47 minimal example: if ' did not exist you could not write `',x 04:43:38 without ' you cannot express outer-evaluate-but-not-inner-evaluate 04:44:19 (where by 'inner' I mean 'evaluation of the form you're constructing' as opposed to evaluation of the quasiquote under discussion) 04:46:41 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-112.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:36 pkhuong: I noticed that if I disassemble, say, (dotimes (i 10000)), then the block placement is pretty clever in that it avoids an unconditional back jump. where is the code that determines block order? 04:48:42 as far as I can tell dfo.lisp is just a straight-up DFO 04:51:19 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-44.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:53:06 Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:52 -!- drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-208.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:57:22 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068081123.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:00:08 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-232.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:02:24 evening 05:03:21 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:04:30 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:06:32 is there a 'good' way to convert binary to trinary while still preserving the bit pattern? e.g 0010 binary (= 2) -> 0010 trinary (= 3) 05:08:19 is that another way of saying how do I convert 2 into 3? 05:10:54 something like that :P 05:11:59 pkhuong: found it; control.lisp 05:12:14 I'm very tempted to just format and then read it back 05:12:32 oh, I see, you want: (let ((q (format nil "~b" 2))) (nth-value 0 (parse-integer q :radix 3))) 05:14:11 ah, yep. thanks 05:14:13 hi drafael, it's called ternary fwiw; slyrus: (nth-value 0 x) is just (values x) 05:14:42 ternary? I'll remember that 05:16:41 -!- drafael2 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-213.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:19:16 Elly [n=elly@unaffiliated/elly] has joined #lisp 05:20:14 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)"] 05:20:41 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:21:05 -!- gko [n=Keca@114-137-11-86.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:25:17 i wonder if russians ever think that lisp coders need to calm down 05:25:35 -!- Puppster [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:28:41 drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-13.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:29:42 gh7d395pi69wd, linux.org.ru seems to have a complex relationship with lisp . . . what are you referring to exactly? 05:30:57 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:34:52 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:05 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:39:29 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 05:40:00 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:40:09 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-232.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:42:54 |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has joined #lisp 05:43:27 -!- |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has quit [Client Quit] 05:44:13 |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has joined #lisp 05:45:19 -!- |Trickster| is now known as Dead 05:45:23 -!- Dead is now known as DeadTrickster 05:47:42 ilitirit_ ) are used as exclamation marks in romanized cyrillic 05:47:44 at least i think they are 05:49:00 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:49:18 alexsuraci 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[n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:43:04 daniel__ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:46:12 cp2_ [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 06:46:55 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:49:01 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 06:51:08 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:51:10 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 06:52:11 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:53:42 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 06:53:58 -!- cp2_ [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 06:54:03 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:55:13 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:56:32 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:02:01 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.5.173] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:03:05 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:03:48 angerman [n=angerman@e161.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 07:05:53 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-183-63.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:06:18 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:33 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:06:44 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:26 hi 07:07:40 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-134.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:08:40 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:11:48 good morning 07:12:16 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit ["leaving"] 07:12:46 how to setup HUNCHENTOOT on windows 07:13:07 i have troubles with usocket 07:13:38 USOCKET::%SETUP-WAIT-LIST is undefined 07:13:44 on sbcl 07:13:46 why don't people give up on windows finally? 07:14:06 couse games 07:14:20 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 07:14:30 DeadTrickster: you mean you are writing one? 07:14:36 in lisp? 07:14:43 nono 07:14:51 i m gaming 07:15:02 so, then i don't see the connection... especially in the age of virtual machines. 07:15:05 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:15:12 me too, still i only boot that crap when i'm playing 07:16:21 in addition i need to write .net programs for work 07:16:43 anyway how about my problem 07:18:21 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:18:25 prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:10 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-143-219.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:23:28 -!- drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-13.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:23:32 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:26:08 DeadTrickster: Preferably, you'd investigate yourself and fix it. Otherwise try ccl instead of sbcl. 07:32:19 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:33:00 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 07:35:06 Good morning. 07:40:55 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:44:02 morning 07:46:42 -!- DeadTrickster [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:48:41 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 07:50:31 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 07:50:42 good morning 07:50:43 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:51:55 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:54:41 matley [n=matley@83.225.34.57] has joined #lisp 07:55:22 ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 07:59:07 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:00:22 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 08:02:00 Taggnostr2 [n=x@dyn57-372.yok.fi] has joined 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http://chaitanyagupta.com/lisp/chronicity/ 09:10:02 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-152.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 09:10:08 I am trying to do date-time arithmetic with http://common-lisp.net/project/local-time/ 09:10:53 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-152.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 09:12:23 -!- girzel [n=user@61.51.238.208] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:12:32 chronicity seems more like a date parser 09:12:49 while local-time is mostly for date/time arithmetic, aiui 09:13:19 ah, but it uses local-time. nice. (I'm still not entirely awake, sry) 09:13:39 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 09:13:53 yes, it's good, and seems to do all calculations in UTC (using local-time) 09:17:38 nunb: fyi, a patch just came to the local-time list which advertises fixing various arithmetic issues... i didn't check it yet, but if you have actual problems at hand, then it's worth retrying them with that patch applied 09:18:49 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@81-174-51-14.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 09:18:51 attila_lendvai: thanks, yes, I've been having some issues, was not sure if they were timezone related or other. 09:20:57 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229111086.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:21:11 -!- eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has left #lisp 09:25:04 g'day #lisp 09:25:16 Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A648A0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:18 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:25:56 pkok [n=patrick@f102140.upc-f.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 09:26:43 -!- Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:29:58 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-152.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:30:41 -!- ShadowChild is now known as lukjad007 09:30:41 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:32:52 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483FD80.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:12 -!- keithr [n=user@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:37:05 aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host249-98-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:39:41 I work in a lisp semi-hostile environment. Because of me, lisp in now required as a step in the build chain for a DSL. I try to lessen the burden about lisp for the other developpers. I have a Makefile variable similar to "DSL=/usr/bin/sbcl --load $(TOOLS)/dsl.lisp" used to compile the DSL. 09:39:51 Do you have any suggestion to improve this situation, while keeping it extra simple ? 09:40:10 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:40:38 One problem I have now, is that the DSL is required to fit in a single file, but I would like to split it a bit in a few very indep 09:40:41 endant parts. 09:42:47 mas01cr [n=user@ma772.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:45:43 Why does it have to fit in a single file? 09:45:45 girzel [n=user@123.121.249.148] has joined #lisp 09:46:12 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:46:34 schmx: I can't LOAD another part, as I don't know the full path to the other part. 09:47:00 hoh. 09:47:29 Can't you just put it with the other file? 09:47:31 (merge-pathnames "relative path" *load-truename*) might help 09:47:32 schmx: it would be in the same dir as the main one, but I don't know that path either. 09:47:38 rite.. 09:47:49 But the makefile knows? 09:47:57 schmx: yes. 09:48:14 hey kuwabara1 -- (merge-pathnames "relative path" *load-truename*) 09:48:19 oh, I could export the TOOL variable to get it back 09:48:32 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:48:41 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 09:48:41 ilitirit_: yes, I'm going to check this very promizing solution 09:48:41 kuwabara1: If shit don't move around you could just use asdf. 09:49:30 you could anyway I guess. Just have the makefile setup the .asd symlink. 09:49:37 then REQUIRE that bayb. 09:49:39 baby too. 09:50:10 kuwabara1: Good work on forcing the heathens to be using lisp :) 09:51:32 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:51:39 or for god's sake, simply don't use symlinks with asdf! write a scanner that scans for .asd files and pushes them in the appropriate asdf:*gloabl-var* 09:51:56 hey that's even easier. 09:52:09 example available at: http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi/darcsweb.cgi?r=cl-dwim-environment;a=headblob;f=/environment.lisp 09:52:33 -!- aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host249-98-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 09:55:01 attila_lendvai, how many lisps did you test that on? i gave up and started using cl-fad 09:58:52 I've found scanning directories for filename matches to be very slow or IO consuming using sbcl+pathnames 09:59:36 aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host249-98-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:01:25 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590e80b5.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 10:01:45 for a much simpler but related task using cl-fad http://github.com/vii/teepeedee2/blob/50f02a0d871a434ac12846422853c076c50505ae/teepeedee2.asd 10:02:21 -!- mas01cr [n=user@ma772.gold.ac.uk] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:03:40 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:07:29 hmm, I like the rudybot URL shortening feature... 10:09:09 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@dyn57-372.yok.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:09:45 attila_lendvai: what about making it part of ASDF (i.e. make it recursively search paths that are in registry?) 10:11:07 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 10:11:23 TuxPurple [n=ItsME@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 10:11:39 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-112.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:12:26 Content-Type 10:12:38 *Content-Type: text/perl <--- nice webpage 10:13:14 hmm, how would that work with cffi/uffi and clsql (which IIRC contain incompatible .asd files) 10:13:32 *michaelw* hmms a lot today 10:13:40 hmmm. 10:13:42 feels good. 10:14:59 ilitirit_: i usually don't care about many lisps... but it works on ccl, sbcl and clisp 10:16:03 p_l: did you ever try making anything part of asdf? i'd (and probably will) work on xcvb then... 10:16:39 attila_lendvai: I had at one point dabbled with adding recursive search using parts of cl-fad, but haven't finished it (the hooks are quite simple, actually) 10:16:48 it already starts with "which ASDF?" :) 10:16:55 attila_lendvai, then good use of wildcards ;) -- are you helping push xcvb? 10:17:55 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:18:29 masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has joined #lisp 10:19:14 ilitirit_: we are planning to be early adapters with all our opensource projects 10:19:23 not yet, though 10:21:06 -!- aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host249-98-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:21:23 aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host249-98-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:22:21 what are the current issues holding it back? 10:22:35 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@81-174-51-14.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [] 10:22:48 summer, deadlines, ... the usual suspects... 10:24:14 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 10:26:33 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:28:24 Demosthenes [n=demo@66.235.80.184] has joined #lisp 10:29:23 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 10:33:08 What's nice about xcvb? 10:34:28 a smart author who needs to deal with a huge codebase, its repo that is alive and regularly receives patches 10:34:57 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-372.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 10:35:05 iow, "patches are welcome" phase, as opposed to dead-end backward compatibility with asdf 10:38:44 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:38:52 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 10:40:20 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:42:21 HG` [n=wells@xdslew004.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:44:18 benny [n=benny@i577A25E3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:45:10 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068081123.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:54 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 10:52:54 -!- aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host249-98-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:53:17 aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host249-98-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:54:09 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:57 Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 11:06:56 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:10:23 cools 11:13:29 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [] 11:13:43 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:13:54 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:13:54 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 11:15:17 CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.6.75] has joined #lisp 11:19:16 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068081123.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:21:46 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 11:25:46 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@66.235.80.184] has quit ["leaving"] 11:26:21 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:29:21 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:31:00 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:35:03 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:32 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:35:45 -!- angerman [n=angerman@e161.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 11:39:52 lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-17-30.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:55 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:40:49 kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-74-104-152-177.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:57 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:46:27 -!- gh7d395pi69wd [n=asdf@unaffiliated/gh7d395pi69wd] has quit ["( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )"] 11:47:54 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.127.189.192] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:49:56 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:49:58 -!- rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:49:58 -!- PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:50:14 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 11:51:28 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1B8DF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:39 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 11:55:13 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:55:36 Puppster [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:57 -!- Lucia [n=Lucia@148.Red-79-148-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:56:16 Lucia [n=Lucia@148.Red-79-148-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:51 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:59:45 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:00:18 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1B4BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:01:56 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-119-133.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:03:10 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:11 Numlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:05:38 dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 12:07:29 gh7d395pi69wd [n=asdf@unaffiliated/gh7d395pi69wd] has joined #lisp 12:08:28 -!- Numlock is now known as PissedNumlock 12:09:56 angerman [n=angerman@e041.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:10:26 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:13:18 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-12-60.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:13:36 kenjin [n=kenjin@221.162.108.236] has joined #lisp 12:14:01 -!- kenjin is now known as Guest76550 12:14:30 are you saying that ASDF contributors aren't smart? :-) 12:15:19 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-74-103.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:15:23 -!- beach`` is now known as beach 12:16:01 why is it that (1- (1+ 0.2)) makes 0.2000005 instead of just 0.2? and how do I avoid it? 12:17:02 Try 1/5 instead of 0.2 12:17:07 p_l: hmm, might be what you want 12:17:26 Guest76550: http://docs.sun.com/source/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html 12:18:00 luis: now to have that in mainline ASDF... 12:18:35 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 12:18:50 Thanks Zhivago but what if I want to do something like (1- (1+ 0.237)) 12:19:10 (1- (1+ 0.237)) 12:19:14 Guest76550: 237/1000 shall work 12:19:40 that is, if you want exact arithmetic 12:19:51 Guest76550: 0.2 has no exact binary representation 12:19:52 I mean...what if I have no idea of the exact number..I have a huge dataset. 12:20:55 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-116-225.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:21:08 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-12-60.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:21:11 -!- beach`` is now known as beach 12:21:16 Guest76550: floating-point arithmethic is approximated and with quote a lot of possible errors hidden. Rational numbers (said 1/5 etc.) don't have this problem 12:21:53 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:22:41 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 12:22:42 Guest76550: I guess you could multiplicate the number up to an integer and work with that. 12:22:44 Thank you p_l, is it also the same in C or Fortran? 12:22:59 you can process you dataset to convert every number into a rational (move the decimal point 6 times to the right and enter (/ result 1000000) into lisp ? 12:23:18 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:26 Guest76550: Yes. 12:23:29 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-28-22.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:23:30 http://docs.sun.com/source/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html 12:23:40 (What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic) 12:23:41 Guest76550: in everything that uses floating-point 12:24:06 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:24:43 (there was a shorter gentler version somewhere, but I can't seem to find it) 12:24:46 Thanks kuwabara...but I'm only a finance student 12:25:12 lol 12:25:19 If you are doing financial computations, I advice you not to use floating point. 12:25:20 oh dear. 12:25:23 Guest76550: ... don't. use. floating-point. for monetary balues. EVER 12:25:25 finance students should be the ones never using floating point numbers 12:25:30 *values 12:25:44 hmm... 12:25:55 What Every Finance Student Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic: DON'T TOUCH IT. 12:26:11 -!- a-s [n=user@92.81.46.25] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:26:17 *p_l* will now have bad nightmares of his account getting chopped down due to inexact arithmetic 12:27:06 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-119-133.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:27:51 Why wouldn't floats suffice for an application in the finance domain ? 12:28:03 *pkhuong* watches p_l run simulations with rationals 12:28:09 larry: 'because' 12:28:15 larry: roundings 12:28:27 larry: 10 isn't a power of 2. 12:28:31 larry: money amounts aren't floating points values 12:28:31 pkhuong: simulations, maybe... but nothing that touches my money... my precioussss 12:28:33 depends on how precise you want your results to be 12:28:57 and 'approximations' are a bad thing when you are manipulating someone's money :) 12:29:03 why do you assume the finance application is sensitive about rounding errors ? 12:29:07 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:07 illegal in many contexts, actually. 12:29:20 larry: errors propagate 12:29:21 larry: the floating point algebra is. 12:29:30 wether it's in finance or elsewhere 12:29:59 larry: and, why would you want rounding errors when you can avoid them ? In particular in finance? 12:31:07 koollman: In a trading application you wouldn't notice if the graph was made up from rounded floats instead of the precise value. 12:31:23 (- 10000000.01 10000000.00) where is my penny ? 12:31:23 In financial applications having the numbers add up again afterward is generally considered to be a 'good' thing. 12:31:24 especially since said roundin error might creep into someplace where you have (* *big-money* factor) ;-) 12:31:36 People who disagree often go to gaol. 12:31:54 larry: unless there is an accumulation of rounding errors 12:32:07 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 12:35:14 koollman: In my example, the eye would be the judge. Say an financial simulation, you could ofcourse build one with floats and one without and having them producing the same result. 12:35:32 larry: simulation doesn't manipulate financial data 12:35:37 at least not directly 12:35:43 (as in, actual money) 12:36:27 larry: you could. But you would have to triple-check the floating-point values one to make sure no rounding error can accumulate or have unusually large effects 12:36:39 -!- Puppster [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:36:43 I don't have anything against usage of floats in some crazy AI running simulation, as long as it doesn't try to apply those values directly to money. 12:36:54 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:36:59 -!- philipp [n=philipp@154-123.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:37:20 larry: as for financial work, various CPUs include special instructions for handling decimal data 12:37:56 larry: I usually prefer the correct result, rather than a 'perhaps faster' approximation. Using floating points at first is often a case of premature optimisation 12:39:03 koollman: is floating-point arithmetic faster than integer arithmetic? 12:39:14 luis: sometimes yes, sometimes no. :) 12:39:46 and in that case it would be compared to 'fixed-point' arithmetic, or perhaps 'arbitrary long decimal' arithmetic. 12:40:32 well, I would have assumed, financial apps just represent money using integers for cents or whatever. 12:41:43 they do store money like that, not necessarily perform calculations like that (there's a lot of fractions in financial world...) 12:41:43 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:46:16 vsync_ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 12:46:16 -!- vsync [n=vsync@174-24.202-68.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:47:01 -!- Guest76550 [n=kenjin@221.162.108.236] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:47:17 -!- angerman [n=angerman@e041.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 12:48:10 we used ratios in CL and it worked pretty well expect small glitches like ROUND rounding .5 up/down for even/odd as opposed to always up that was written in the law 12:48:53 ...but most financial apps are not written in lisp i guess... :) 12:51:00 attila_lendvai: In the US, I believe that you're supposed to round to even ... it's called "bankers' rounding". 12:51:44 Hunh ... I could be wrong. It's called that, but apparently it's a misnomer. 12:52:21 I wonder why it's _not_ used in banking. 12:54:30 because the emphasis isn't on unbiased statistical analyses, I'm guessing 12:55:49 heh, "bankers" and "unbiased" in the same sentence... :) 12:56:00 hahahahahahaha 12:56:13 C|N>K 12:57:11 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [] 12:57:48 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.86.98] has joined #lisp 12:58:11 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:15 -!- Elly [n=elly@unaffiliated/elly] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:02:26 Elly [n=elly@198-144-37-142.static.vdsl.nidhog.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:07 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:07:40 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslew004.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:09:44 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 13:10:12 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest58875 13:16:03 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:17:06 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:17:08 -!- vsync_ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:17:37 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 13:17:47 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:17:48 hello 13:19:31 question: is there anything that'd prevent the compiler from inlining FLET/LABELS definitions, assuming they aren't passed anywhere? 13:19:48 recursion? :) 13:20:06 mathrick: high debug settings 13:20:09 michaelw: right, but outside of that? 13:20:21 fe[nl]ix: aha, but not anything written in the standard? 13:20:27 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 13:20:29 then again, you might get lucky with simple recursion being transformed to a loop 13:20:39 I got a bit confused by the spec's example of declaring local funs as INLINE 13:21:46 ah, okay, it's not an example, but a simple definition of scope 13:23:24 a good compiler should integrate flets and labels into the parent function's CFG 13:23:31 I'm pretty sure SBCL does this in simple cases at least 13:24:40 right 13:25:47 hmm, which one's better: char-peek for EOF, or read-char and check if I got a valid value? 13:25:59 ie. is checking with char-peek expensive? 13:26:11 -!- Guest58875 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 13:26:11 (you can assume SBCL) 13:26:14 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 13:26:18 implement it and find out 13:26:32 slava: cop out 13:27:11 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:27:43 I usually go with read-char for code simplicity reasons, YMMV 13:28:02 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:28:48 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:59 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:29:32 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-134.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:30:20 masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has joined #lisp 13:30:34 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:58 -!- xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has quit ["Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.2.0"] 13:33:09 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.183.111] has joined #lisp 13:33:24 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 13:33:45 vsync_ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 13:35:51 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-201-124.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:45 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-36-140.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:39:12 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:39:54 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181148156.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:40:00 hoy 13:40:10 hi nikodemus 13:40:19 arfternoon 13:40:20 Krystof, memo from kpreid: re your syncing use case, it sounds like a useful function would be that changes are transferred between machine as possible, not manually, to reduce the chance of not having the data when you're disconnected. (i.e. sync now, merge later) 13:40:39 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:51 -!- nikodemus changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.30, Osicat 0.6.0, CFFI 0.10.5, trivial-features 0.5, ABCL 0.15.0, Hunchentoot & Drakma 1.0.0, usocket 0.4.1, cl-net-snmp 5.19, yason-0.1, series 2.2.10, CMUCL 19f. 13:40:53 mm, food for thought 13:40:56 (finally) 13:41:07 nikodemus: bad luck :-) 13:42:07 i'm adding deftransforms for /: (/ 1-or-1.0) --> , (/ 1.0d0) --> (%double-float ), etc 13:42:21 nikodemus: netbsd/x86 is available at . 13:42:48 is there something i'm missing, because i would have thought this should have been there, well, forever 13:42:51 ? 13:42:58 pkhuong: thanks 13:43:22 SNaN? 13:43:25 HG` [n=wells@xdsleo113.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:43:29 in other news, in my books the new sourceforge webinterface is even worse than the old 13:44:34 oh, right 13:45:22 at some point in my copious retirement planning I will resurrect my ieee-floating-point test suite 13:45:25 (declare (sb-ext:math-safety 0)) ;) 13:45:50 we already have float-accuracy 13:46:15 well, transforming into * should be safe, and allows dealing with -1 as well 13:46:35 and is at least faster then DIVSS/DIVDS/FDIV 13:46:44 Puppster [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:48 how often do people divide by 1?! 13:46:55 Is there a CL operator to determine how precise a floating point number is, i.e. how far the nearest representable other floats are? 13:47:23 kpreid: integer-decode-float will get you most of the way there 13:47:23 other transforms and macros can easily lead to that 13:47:38 kpreid: you'll need some special cases around powers of 2 and 0 13:47:44 Krystof: and denorms. 13:47:58 eg currently (truncate ) generates (/ 1), which in turns leads to GENERIC-/ 13:48:01 :| 13:48:36 nikodemus: ok, fair enough 13:48:42 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-17-83.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 13:48:51 ivan-kanis [n=user@if02t2-89-83-137-164.d4.club-internet.fr] has joined #lisp 13:51:17 nikodemus: There's a transform to turn those into %unary-truncate. 13:51:49 I am idly attempting to write an exact square root function 13:51:51 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-112.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:19 kpreid: how exact 13:53:46 kpreid: float-precision? 13:54:10 given a rational number whose square root is rational, it should return a rational number 13:54:41 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.6.75] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:57:44 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 13:59:10 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:59:17 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:50 kpreid: isqrt on the numerator and denominator. 14:01:25 doh! 14:01:43 I was using cl:sqrt and looking at the nearest integers. 14:04:46 matley [n=matley@host233-165-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:05:28 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 14:05:49 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:05:53 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:45 boo: (constantp '(denominator (the integer x))) => NIL 14:09:06 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.249.148] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:09:21 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:09:33 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:10:10 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 14:11:00 kpreid pasted "exact sqrt" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84313 14:11:24 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 14:12:48 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:23 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:14:54 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:15:09 prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:50 pdelgallego [n=pedro@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:39 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:54 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:58 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:21:47 quack [n=fhc@bl4-82-131.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:22:28 Strange local-time error: There is no applicable method for the generic function 14:22:29 # 14:22:29 when called with arguments 14:22:29 (999999999 T). 14:22:48 But there is no caller like that! 14:22:59 angerman [n=angerman@e242.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:23:11 jlf [n=user@adsl-76-253-93-71.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:29 pkhuong: it's just that transform that introduces the division... 14:24:28 nunb: what does the backtrace say? 14:25:49 ah: It seems I was misusing :into -- I thought :into t meant yes, write into the struct, but it appears I have to pass it the timestamp object. :into tp-obj 14:26:11 *nunb* is doubtful 14:26:44 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 14:26:56 nunb: the :into parameter is to provide a local-time for mutation. If one isn't provided, one will be created 14:27:29 Lacrymology [n=Tomas@200.69.219.97] has joined #lisp 14:27:34 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:28:19 dlowe: thanks, I was trying to use it as a simple boolean flag. 14:29:07 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:29:22 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 14:29:52 angerman_ [n=angerman@e167.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:29:55 Hi, I've got two SLIME lisps open at once, CLISP and CCL 14:30:16 -!- quack [n=fhc@bl4-82-131.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:30:32 I was doing some work a few hours ago on the project in the CCL lisp, and I just got back and want to work on my project that's in the CLISP image 14:30:36 -!- aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host249-98-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:30:57 how do I tell SLIME to send commands like C-c C-c, C-c C-k, etc, to the inferior-lisp of CLISP? 14:31:19 *Adlai* also checks the SLIME manual... 14:31:47 aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host249-98-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:32:00 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:33 C-c C-x c 14:34:34 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:53 and d on the desired lisp 14:36:02 -!- angerman [n=angerman@e242.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:36:11 -!- angerman_ is now known as angerman 14:36:34 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:38:27 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:42:21 stassats: thanks 14:43:08 did you find that in the manual? 14:43:33 yes, but about 2 minutes after you pointed it out... it's not very easy to find 14:44:51 actually 14:44:52 wait 14:44:54 I found it through the slime-selector A-/ on my machine, trying out the various options. 14:44:57 maybe I didn't find that in the manual! 14:45:03 It's pretty cool. 14:45:26 I found slime-selector, and assumed that's what stassats was talking about... but I just tried slime-selector, and it doesn't do exactly the same thing. 14:45:35 so stassats: no, I didn't find that in the manual :| 14:45:36 -!- Lacrymology [n=Tomas@200.69.219.97] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:45:54 Adlai: i did, i thought maybe it weren't there 14:46:02 Lacrymology [n=Tomas@200.69.219.97] has joined #lisp 14:46:32 http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Multiple-connections.html#Multiple-connections here it is 14:47:10 stassats: M-x slime-selector gives me a thingy waiting for input at the minibuffer, while C-c C-x c gives me a separate buffer listing my lisps, where I can control the connectiosn. 14:47:38 M-x slime-selector RET c gives you it too 14:47:59 *stassats* has slime-selector bound to C-z 14:48:21 schoppenhauer_ [n=css@138.246.23.210] has joined #lisp 14:51:01 stassats: 'c' in slime-selector isn't in the manual -- *hint hint* to any SLIME maintainers in here right now? 14:51:13 i'm here, indeed 14:51:44 hehe 14:52:17 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:52:32 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 14:52:47 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:52:53 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:53:29 I think the manual might be clearer if there was one section collecting all the information about multiple lisps. 14:53:38 s/was/were/ 14:53:52 Adlai: patches are welcome 14:54:21 going 3 months back from "2009-12-31" gives me a timestamp like so: 14:54:41 stassats: links to tutorials of whatever typesetting language the slime manual is written in, or just the name of that typesetting language because I don't quite remember, are welcome. 14:54:50 is it texinfo? 14:55:14 if anyone's familiar with the local-time lib.. 14:55:28 Adlai: it is 14:55:35 nunb: dlowe should be familiar 14:56:09 stassats: alright, I'll see what I can do. 14:57:31 nunb: the problem is that a timestamp is a point in time, not a date designation 14:59:20 nunb: so the encoding/decoding stuff is all timezone dependent. local-time currently does the worst possible job of guessing what timezone to use 14:59:35 What would be a good general strategy to count backwards in calendar time? So far I can think of 2-3: a) use timestamp- with :month specifiers, b) specify :offset explicitly 14:59:37 if you always specify an offset/timezone, it pretty much always works right 14:59:57 :offset 0 tends to work ok 14:59:58 unfortunately b) hasn't worked so far. 15:00:09 you also have to specify +utc-zone+ for a timezone 15:00:34 I have a patch sitting in the queue that allegedly fixes many of these issues 15:00:36 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:01:04 which I haven't had time to look at thoroughly 15:01:10 oh, let me try utc-zone I thought it was picking up the default TZ (ie, that's where it was getting offsets from..) 15:01:13 15:03:04 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:03:47 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 15:04:24 nunb: an offset is an integer used for encoding timestamps. A timezone is used for decoding a timestamp 15:06:09 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 15:07:09 -!- [sbahra] is now known as sbahra 15:07:18 these timezone things are surprisingly complex compared to how simply people (well, non-programmers :) think about them 15:07:48 rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 15:09:20 schoppenhauer__ [n=css@138.246.23.210] has joined #lisp 15:10:28 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)"] 15:12:18 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:12:53 -!- schoppenhauer__ [n=css@138.246.23.210] has quit [Client Quit] 15:13:53 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has quit ["leaving"] 15:16:41 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:18:13 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A25E3.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:18:23 attila_lendvai: I'm thinking I should just find someone else to maintain local-time. Like you. Or those other people. 15:18:28 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:19:28 benny [n=benny@i577A25E3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:19:36 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit ["Valete!"] 15:19:39 willb [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:20:21 I'm just too busy 15:21:15 It seems the answer is with-decoded-timestamp, but although it encodes using a default timezone, it doesn't decode using one :-) 15:21:51 Keyframe2 [n=Keyframe@78-1-143-74.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:22:14 nunb: hm? It uses *default-timezone* 15:22:18 attila_lendvai: yes, I just got bawled out for not producing a "simple" sequence of dates and times (local-time was correctly taking care of DST changes :-) 15:22:32 dlowe: I'll check again. 15:22:46 nunb: there's a timezone argument 15:22:51 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:22:52 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:24:32 dlowe: yup, I used it and I could have sworn it gave me diff results with and without. 15:24:49 *nunb* must be tired 15:25:08 nunb: the problem is the encoding of new timestamps, not decoding 15:27:52 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:28:35 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 15:28:46 -!- schoppenhauer_ [n=css@138.246.23.210] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:29:26 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:29:38 dlowe: does local-time have a concept of arbitrary time intervals, like say "2 years, 3 months and 5 days"? 15:29:42 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:29:58 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-17-7.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:30:06 and morning folks 15:30:23 slyrus_: no. it's very bare bones. I did have a model designed for that sort of thing, though 15:30:53 ah, ok. I was trying to remember what my motivation for my time-interval package was. I think it was the lack of those kind of intervals. 15:30:57 hello slyrus_ 15:31:10 howdy beach 15:31:24 slyrus_: the one time I needed that, I asked google calendar (: 15:31:35 ivan-kan` [n=user@if02t2-89-83-137-164.d4.club-internet.fr] has joined #lisp 15:32:42 -!- ivan-kanis [n=user@if02t2-89-83-137-164.d4.club-internet.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:33:14 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:33:38 dlowe: not to be obtuse, but it considers the *default-timezone* while encoding and decoding, so I take it the TZ is not the problem you mention? For my purposes, I can get the arithmetical results I need by using an offset equal to my current TZ; I'm still trying out various things at the repl for past/future calculations. 15:36:55 -!- vsync_ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:37:31 vsync_ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 15:38:47 dlowe: i don't have much time either, but i did star that mail and will try that patch... having a commit bit does not really imply that i'm capable of deciding about whether some change is correct. having a glance on that patch my impression is that if that patch is correct then those guys are good candidates for the commit bit also 15:39:08 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 15:39:41 nunb: right now, it encodes using the utc offset from the default timezone, using the current time 15:39:59 nunb: it's the wrong thing to do 15:41:40 froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 15:42:52 I see, that would explain why I get better results explicitly setting the offset. I'll know more after I finish the naggum paper which I'm some way through. 15:43:06 Thanks. 15:43:21 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:44:37 bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has joined #lisp 15:45:33 jlf`` [n=user@209.204.171.101] has joined #lisp 15:45:38 pkhuong: apropos, do you know any handy tricks for zeroing out the high word of an XMM register? 15:47:04 -!- jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:48:14 nikodemus: MOVQ probably. 15:50:27 -!- pdelgallego [n=pedro@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:51:16 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:52:03 -!- Foofie is now known as Fufie 15:52:50 -!- proq` is now known as proq 15:56:33 is there a SLIME cross-reference function that'd find users of a class? 15:56:48 in SBCL that is 15:57:13 <[df]> http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Cross_002dreference.html 15:57:21 <[df]> oh, a class 15:57:35 what's a user of a class? 15:57:42 methods which directly specialize on it? 15:58:01 slime-who-specializes? 15:58:04 or places where it's instantiated 15:58:15 <[df]> just search for the constructor then 15:58:45 a lot of places call MAKE-INSTANCE... 15:58:57 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-201-124.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:59:30 the short answer seems to be "no" 15:59:44 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:59:46 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@89.180.0.200] has joined #lisp 16:01:12 indeed 16:01:19 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-147-161.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:24 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:03:36 -!- jlf`` is now known as jlf` 16:04:19 -!- jlf [n=user@adsl-76-253-93-71.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:04:54 pkhuong: high 32 bits, not the whole high half :/ 16:05:14 (at least it's not obvious to me how to do the first with MOVQ) 16:05:17 oh well 16:07:14 what's the most mature lisp implementation for x64 windows? 16:07:24 -!- Puppster [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:35 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:07:56 nikodemus: erh, what? Shift and shift back I guess. 16:08:29 -!- Lacrymology [n=Tomas@200.69.219.97] has left #lisp 16:09:04 boyscared: that would be Allegro or LispWorks. Or did you mean most mature _free_ lisp implementation? 16:09:13 yes, free 16:09:22 CCL 16:09:23 oh, hmm 16:09:23 CCL, I guess? 16:09:35 clisp? 16:09:43 i use sbcl, but it doesn't run on my windows box 16:09:53 ok, will try ccl, thanks :P 16:10:19 boyscared: CLisp is also good on Windows. No threads, though. 16:12:03 boyscared: what's the symptom you see with sbcl? 16:12:03 (just for the record) 16:12:03 "cannot mmap " at startup? 16:12:14 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:05 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:14:10 i have win2k8 x64 and it's nonfunctional. i sometimes connect to a remote sbcl instance via swank, which works. 16:14:22 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:14:36 milanj [n=milan@93.87.151.22] has joined #lisp 16:14:42 oh, _64_ 16:15:01 yeah, that's not really expected to work even a bit, i think 16:15:12 yeah, x64 isn't yet supported by sbcl 16:15:31 windows x64 doesn't support 32-bit apps? 16:17:29 but still, that is the symptom you see when you try to run it? presumably it says _something_ before dying a painful death 16:19:24 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 16:19:33 bad_alloc [n=marvin@HSI-KBW-078-042-137-089.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 16:19:40 hi 16:20:12 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:20:22 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has left #lisp 16:20:44 nikodemus: i've already uninstalled and deleted sbcl, so i cannot answer that 16:21:08 fair enough 16:21:26 i've just tried to generate some random numbers but (random) can only generate them between 0 and n. i've solved this temporarily by looping random until it returns a value bigger than the desired minimum. is there any way to do this more elegantly? 16:22:10 add some constant to the return value? 16:22:20 (loop (if (< 3 tmp) (setf tmp(random 18)) (return))) <- my solution 16:22:37 bad_alloc: (+ (random 15) 3) 16:23:15 thanks sellout 16:24:54 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:52 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:28:30 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:29:05 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:18 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 16:30:23 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:32:07 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 16:32:54 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:35 philipp__ [n=philipp@vpn-global-dhcp3-082.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 16:34:50 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 16:35:02 truthair [n=truthair@inconsistent.nl] has joined #lisp 16:35:03 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 16:35:12 nunb` [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 16:35:48 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [Client Quit] 16:36:14 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:48 Ok, I've by now read about 5 different explanations of macro's and I still don't grok the difference between macro's and functions. All the example macro's I've seen seem like they could just be functions. 16:37:37 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:37:38 Anyone here that can perhaps shed some light on this for me? In which situations would I use a macro and when a function or what or an example macro use that does something which functions can't? 16:37:44 truthair: Sometimes a macro is used just because it is more convenient not to have to quote some arguments. Other times, there is more processing going on. 16:37:57 truthair: go write an IF function 16:38:06 well after six chapters of practical common lisp i've understood it as something that generates its own code 16:38:26 truthair: For instance, if some context needs to be set up before the processing of some code has to be done, then you cannot use a function. 16:38:37 cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has joined #lisp 16:39:41 truthair: functions abstract behaviour, right? -- instead of writing something complex all over the place you put the code in function 16:40:26 truthair: When I teach a course about macros, I use an example called Prescript, which is a prefix verison of PostScript, where you can do (ps (lineto 0 1) (gsave (moveto 0 1) (arcto 1 3 5 3)) (stroke)) 16:41:29 -!- acieroid [n=quentin@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:42:16 except sometimes you can't easily do that, because the behaviour you are after needs access to its context: eg. INCF cannot be implemented as function 16:43:40 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:44:00 so, instead of writing (SETF X (+ X 1)) all over the place, someone has writting the INCF macro that does it for you: (INCF X) expands into something like (SETF X (+ X 1)) -- details about avoiding multiple evaluation of X aside 16:45:07 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:45:14 nikodemus: How exactly is INCF different from a function that takes X as argument and returns (+ x 1)? 16:45:19 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-147-161.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:45:29 it modifies the local variable 16:45:35 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:51 truthair: the SETF part is different .. non? 16:46:00 err 16:46:16 truthair: for another example, consider a complex class object with behaviors (in my case a time-out/cron like object) that needs to be created with make-instance and have its methods defined with defmethod). I could write a macro that turns this: 16:46:17 (defun fun-incf (x) (+ x 1)) (let ((x 0)) (fun-incf x) x) => 0 16:46:37 stassats, easy, (if (expr) (lambda () ...) (lambda () ...)) 16:46:52 er, stick funcalls there 16:46:54 macros abstract syntactic patterns like that, and things like "open file, do stuff with it, make sure it gets closed" -- another faily common pattern 16:46:57 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-9c851912d7995b16] has joined #lisp 16:47:00 Returning (+ x 1) makes no sense, I was thinking of something like (defun fun-incf (x) (SETF X (+ X 1)) I think 16:47:01 and the macro for it is WITH-OPEN-FILE 16:47:31 truthair: same result -- that modifies the X local to the function, not the X at the call site 16:47:33 truthair: that's not going to work like INCF does at all, so maybe you are starting to see the point? 16:47:42 Unwieldy, but doable. 16:48:00 truthair, it's pass-by-value, you cant modify place in function 16:48:12 nikodemus: Ah, right. 16:48:59 granted, if you were willing to box the value, then it would work: (defun fun-incf (x) (setf (car x) (+ (car x) 1))) (let ((x (list 0))) (fun-incf x) (car x)) => 1 16:49:13 converts something like (defexpire "2009-11-01" :action (:email :to "to" :body "Missed alarm!") :action (defexpire "+3 days" :action (:email ... :body "2nd alarm!"))) into the appropriate defmethods and classes required to implement the behavior. 16:49:21 Something's starting to dawn on me 16:50:47 Still a bit fuzzy, but it's a start. Back to the books I go 16:50:49 truthair: implementing IF, as people have mentioned, can be a big eye-opener. 16:51:12 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-10-103.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:35 right, or a looping construct 16:52:32 deepfire: your if function won't work. do you see why? 16:52:48 (do-non-whitespace-characters (x "foo bar quux") ...) where X would take values #\f #\o #\o #\b #\a #\r #\q #\u #\u #\x 16:52:49 -!- vandemar [i=cohen@2001:470:1f10:56b:0:0:0:4] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:52:49 -!- sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:52:50 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:52:52 vandemar [i=holy@2001:470:1f10:56b:0:0:0:4] has joined #lisp 16:52:52 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 16:52:53 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 16:52:55 http://weitz.de/macros.lisp <- nice txt about macros 16:53:20 (other than the fact that it calls itself like that. ignoring that, there's still a problem) 16:54:58 moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 16:55:51 -!- bad_alloc [n=marvin@HSI-KBW-078-042-137-089.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit ["You shoot yourself in somebody else's foot."] 16:58:27 -!- nunb` [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:00:07 clhs restarts 17:00:07 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for restarts. 17:00:08 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:00:24 any way to get a list of available restarts? 17:00:27 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:00:41 clhs: compute-restarts 17:00:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_comp_1.htm 17:00:48 nikodemus: thanks 17:00:55 specbot: thank you too :D 17:02:43 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:55 -!- philipp__ [n=philipp@vpn-global-dhcp3-082.ethz.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:04:08 typo in the hyperspec! 17:04:26 "... consequences are undefined if the list is everY modified." 17:05:02 clhs is flawed, what do we do now? 17:05:38 -!- Keyframe2 [n=Keyframe@78-1-143-74.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- *I* use it, so it must be good!"] 17:06:03 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:06:12 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-112.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:06:48 Let's write a sequel! 17:10:17 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 17:12:02 philipp__ [n=philipp@154-123.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:12:28 -!- matley [n=matley@host233-165-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:12:32 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [] 17:14:21 *p_l* setups a lookout for flying pigs 17:14:22 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:14:56 ia__ [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 17:15:08 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:16:28 -!- Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A648A0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:18:14 p_l: http://www.flying-pig.co.uk/pagesv/pig.htm (I'm not in any way related to the site, I'm not advertising for them, just pointing out a funny link) 17:19:46 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:20 Adlai: does it fly? 17:20:23 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:20:26 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:20:34 if not, I'm strapping a jet engine to the next pig I find :PO 17:20:36 *:P 17:21:19 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:21:39 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 17:22:07 nikodemus: eek! + doesn't preserve signed 0s, but / and * do. 17:24:22 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.183.111] has quit ["Leaving..."] 17:26:10 p_l: that depends on how you define "does"... 17:26:26 pkhuong: more verbosely, please 17:26:32 did i do something bad? 17:26:43 I'll reply on the mailing list for posterity (: 17:27:15 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 17:27:32 i _thought_ i thought about signed zeroes :/ 17:28:06 newb question... where are signed zeros useful? 17:28:43 Adlai: sustained, non-ballistic flight 17:31:09 I think we want a float-inaccuracy setting. With 1 as the default and 0 as the minimum value, we can't expose a fine enough control on algebraic optimisations. 17:32:00 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:32:01 Adlai: http://docs.sun.com/source/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html 17:32:04 Adlai: signed zeros are useful when the allow to make symetric ranges for positive and negative integers, on a BINARY computer where words always have an even number of codes. 17:32:47 -!- angerman [n=angerman@e167.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 17:33:02 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:33:03 saikat_ [n=saikat@67.180.8.39] has joined #lisp 17:34:06 (i should reread that, actually) 17:35:05 nikodemus: was your site down for a while? 17:35:16 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:35:35 yes, and sb-studio.net is still not restored :/ 17:35:39 doing that tomorrow 17:35:55 (actually, i neglected to pay the bill...) 17:36:14 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:36:16 pjb: makes sense 17:36:31 nikodemus: that's very interesting, especially the bit about discontinuous functions. 17:37:01 Adlai: otherwise, p_l is right. A bug in the F16 flight software (happily caught in virtual tests), made it flip over when crossing equator. 17:37:59 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 17:38:39 pjb: I think p_l was talking about the pig flying, not signed zero ;) 17:38:47 How is it useful for flight calculations? 17:38:54 hm, sellout may be right :) 17:39:31 so, it's ok for a pig to flip over? 17:39:51 Oh! I need to read the logs... :-) 17:40:12 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:13 pkhuong: looks like linear scan becomes decent if there's a separate coalescing pass beforehand 17:41:06 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdsleo113.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:41:24 stassats: only if it's flying below the equator, ofcourse. 17:42:06 Honestly, ISTM that pigs could flight better on their back. 17:42:23 still better than declaring a float as integer and seeing beautiful rocket crash ;-) 17:42:57 pjb: was a signed zero error really responsible for such a bug? 17:43:31 Adlai: I don't think so, It must involve a multiplication, and signed 0 * something = signed 0. 17:44:29 http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/3.44.html << F16 bug. 17:44:31 *Adlai* can't imagine how signed zero would play in ballistic equations. Maybe he just doesn't know anything about ballistics... 17:45:41 Adlai: maybe because none of those calculations included ballistics 17:45:56 Suttonian [n=Suttonia@5ac8249b.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 17:46:05 and it looks to me like two bugs, not one 17:47:47 one in autopilot/flight director, which ordered the maneouvre, second, in G-limit code 17:48:54 also, that thing mentioned for F-16C/D never entered service, though I heard NASA built a F-16 variant after their F-4 one 17:49:49 slava: it'd be nice if you could log your experiments somewhere (: 17:50:44 deafmacro [n=user@59.92.197.101] has joined #lisp 17:51:29 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 17:52:20 pkhuong: I'll post a blog entry today or tomorrow 17:52:57 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:56:43 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@host150.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:59:43 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:00:09 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 18:05:04 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:36 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:06:00 nikodemus: sent. 18:06:09 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:06:53 mjf [n=mjf@r2r126.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 18:07:21 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r2r126.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 18:07:25 mjf [n=mjf@r2r126.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 18:09:14 Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A67516.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:07 thanks! 18:11:22 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:11:36 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 18:12:46 ah, i see 18:13:39 %NEGATE doesn't necessarily signal, hence the second op 18:13:45 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:13:46 Ah, right. 18:13:58 A VOP to signal and otherwise no-op? 18:14:40 %CHECK-SNAN, maybe? 18:15:16 -!- truthair [n=truthair@inconsistent.nl] has left #lisp 18:15:33 what would be a SNaN catching check that didn't require an additional constant? 18:16:44 I want to study sbcl source; should i start with the internals wiki or cmucl design manual. or should i follow the make.sh and follow files from there? I'd one attempt which was using the last method but i got overwhelmed? any advice? suggestion? 18:16:56 i'll fix those to use * and add your exact reciprocals tomorrow 18:16:59 does sbcl convert division by constant into a multiplication also for modular arithmetic? that'd seem like a worthwhile target to me. 18:17:54 for powers of two we convert to shift 18:18:14 but the more complex cases aren't implemented 18:18:28 an excellent case study for you, cmo-0 :) 18:18:52 cmo-0: it's imo best understood piecewise 18:19:03 M-. is helpful 18:19:26 cmo-0: imo, M-. and a project that doesn't require you to grok the whole thing is best. 18:19:30 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-87.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 18:19:36 anyone interested feel free to ask sensible questions on sbcl-devel 18:19:37 nikodemus: why do we care about additional constants? 18:20:04 cmo-0: did you notice doc/internals and doc/internals-notes? 18:20:16 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 18:20:16 pkhuong: code size 18:20:49 worst case, 8+8 bytes, unless speed > space. 18:21:13 + padding for the inline constant area 18:21:27 i've printed sbcl manual (for the pdf version ) 2 months ago and went through it quickly its good as a ref. 18:21:30 right, 8 bytes for alignment. There's no padding unless speed > space. 18:21:36 oh, i see 18:21:55 i've been running too much under speed 3 lately, it seems :) 18:22:28 I wonder what the effect of similar padding for the constant vector when speed = 3 > space would be. 18:22:39 -!- willb [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:22:58 nikodemus: thanks i found it, i'll compile and print it. 18:23:15 cmo-0: what interests you? 18:23:16 cmo-0: this hint is great for exploring any CL source -- open the files in Emacs with SLIME running, and use M-. (go to source) and M-, ('pop' to previous file location) to navigate your way around the sources. 18:23:36 that won't work beyond a certain point, when you get to internals, of course. 18:24:30 compilers? gcs? signal handling? threads? general lisp library stuff? clos? 18:24:44 cmo-0: what for do you want to study sbcl sources? to modify them? 18:25:06 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:25:16 Adlai: sure it works on internals in SBCL. 18:26:13 pkhuong: by internals I meant C sources of the core... do you mean those as well? Although now that I -think- about it, there's actually no reason that M-[.,] only has to work on CL source 18:26:14 nikodemus: i'm trying to use CL as my main programming language. I love the standard, but common-lisp technology does not stop there. what gives you advantage over others is the extensions. where i'd like to be able to add and support with both adhering and extending CL. 18:27:21 you also can try fixing bugs from the bug-tracker, fixing bugs is a good way to make yourself acquainted with the code-base 18:27:23 cmo-0: if you're interested in finding libraries for extending CL functionality, there are many libraries that work on [almost] all implementations, and that provide things like threads, web server infrastructure, etc. Look on cliki. 18:27:58 Adlai: there really isn't much logic implemented in C in SBCL and CMUCL (I expect CCL is similar). 18:28:30 *stassats* doesn't like code-formatting in CCL 18:28:35 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:38 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:28:38 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:28:44 pkhuong: hm, I'm curious myself now... 18:28:46 Adlai: using CL to bring you bucks will be more effeint when you have added value, more extensions, at that time you can compete. 18:28:48 stassats: what do you mean? 18:29:10 Adlai: blank lines, trailing white-spaces 18:29:10 competing with ideas is good, but also having more power will help you better. 18:29:31 stassats: ah, I call that "lack of formatting" :) 18:29:32 michaelw: no need for modular arithmetic for reciprocal mult, only a known range. A modular inverse isn't what we're looking for anyway. 18:29:58 Adlai: the code itself is formatted ok 18:30:33 stassats: Feel free to clean that up :) 18:30:56 cmo-0: CL has a lot of power with libraries too. Here are some examples of libraries -- you might want to look at those before you try writing your own improvements to CL: 18:31:06 minion: tell cmo-0 about bordeaux-threads 18:31:07 cmo-0: please look at bordeaux-threads: Portable shared-state concurrency for Common Lisp Bordeaux-Threads is a library to write multi-threaded applications in a portable way. http://www.cliki.net/bordeaux-threads 18:31:07 I'm not rejecting portable code in any way. just saying that all implementation should adher to the standard in both following what is clear in the standard and using what was left by the standard explictly to experiment and further the technology 18:31:43 I know bordeaux-threads, which is good at providing a protable interface for threading 18:31:57 ok. Sorry if I came off as rude. 18:32:36 cmo-0: a couple of the talks here might be of interest to you as well: http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/talks/ 18:32:58 -!- deafmacro [n=user@59.92.197.101] has left #lisp 18:33:09 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 18:33:14 the sbcl ones, of course, not the musicology stuff :) 18:33:28 pkhuong`: chances are high that I am interested in fast code for ub32/fixnum type ints, no? 18:34:11 interesting! thanks. 18:34:35 *nikodemus* goes home 18:34:36 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181148156.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:34:39 Sure, but that doesn't imply modular arithmetic at all, only a restricted input range. 18:34:52 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:30 ah 18:37:16 We're reducing the number of bits. I don't really care if you tell me that you only want the first 32 bits of a result that'll always fit in fewer bits. 18:38:28 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 18:38:30 cmo-0: What kinds of extensions do you have in mind? 18:39:25 blandest [n=blandest@79.112.98.149] has joined #lisp 18:39:48 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@67.180.8.39] has quit [] 18:41:18 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:41:38 things to help in development/production/maintenance/integrate-with-os 18:42:02 a-s [n=user@92.81.46.25] has joined #lisp 18:42:19 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:36 going for portable code is a good thing, but shooting on that target from the begining is not good. (it seems to me like permeture optimization but with a twist). 18:43:48 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:44:27 hm, one of the things in the first link on the page that nikodemus posted is something that I thought about recently. 18:45:23 imho portable in a sense also looks for Lowest common denominator among implementations! 18:45:27 Does Slime have problems collecting output from external program (via sb-ext:run-program). Even when I set :output t I don't get output in Slime (but I do on the command line) 18:45:28 hehe, I feel stupid now that I didn't look to see if anybody had tackled the problem... 18:45:35 (I'm talking about string-case) 18:46:31 cmo-0: yes, compatibility libs depend on implementation-specific code. 18:46:32 smithzv: something on the lines of global-io-redirect 18:47:36 http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Global-IO-Redirection.html 18:47:37 -!- nerdshark [n=dorkfish@74-131-32-72.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit ["WeeChat 0.3.0-rc2"] 18:47:45 sorry, smithzv: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Global-IO-Redirection.html 18:48:04 cmo-0: looking at that now, thanks 18:50:19 that applies for lisp-side threads .. i do not think that it applies for output wrt. sb-ext:run-program .. what actually works is to supply the :OUTPUT arg with :STREAM then fetch it using (sb-ext:process-output proc) ..proc being the return-value from sb-ext:run-program, and use normal lisp stream functions to read from that stream 18:50:47 .. this might have changed recently though .. it's been a while since i've used run-program 18:51:28 Adlai: a reasonably fast string= should make string-case obsolete. 18:51:32 smithzv: you can also do something like (with-output-to-string (os) 18:51:33 (sb-ext:run-program "/bin/ls" '() :output os)) 18:52:18 pkhuong: yes, I realized that from those slides. 18:52:22 (let* ((proc (sb-ext:run-program "/bin/ls" '() :output :stream)) (os (sb-ext:process-output proc))) (read-line os)) ;; works here 18:52:41 (you mean the specializer, right?) 18:53:57 cmo-0: Thank you, that works well 18:55:02 lnostdal: I tried doing this but I got turned around, I guess. I thought I could access the output slot in that object but I just get strange errors if I try. I guess I need to use PROCESS-OUTPUT. 18:55:44 lnostdal: Oh, it's a structure... 18:55:45 Adlai: no, I mean string-case. 18:55:51 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:56:11 smithzv: lnostdal code works also 18:56:26 pkhuong: let me rephrase... by "string=", you mean "method specializer string=", not #'string=, right? 18:57:00 yes, thank you to both of you. 18:57:25 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:57:45 willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 18:57:53 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 18:58:01 smithzv, yeah, it's not very clear perhaps, but when the docs for sb-ext:run-program talks about PROCESS-OUTPUT they mean the "accessor function" (sb-ext:process-output process) 18:58:38 Adlai: no, I mean string=. 18:59:15 oh to have time to do stuff that is on my todo list 19:00:32 mdavid [n=mdavid@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:18 pkhuong: I'm confused now... if the function #'string= were were fast enough, then a string-case macro would be obsolete? 19:01:27 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 19:01:51 indeed. 19:02:24 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 19:02:32 don't you mean that if a (string-arg (string= )) method specializer was fast enough, the string-case hypothetical macro would be obsolete? 19:02:38 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:28 no. 19:04:07 nikodemus: darn, forgot to link to . 19:05:32 How does having a fast string comparison function affect higher-level concepts like the macro or the method specializer? 19:07:58 You can just generate a cond form instead of the current complex logic. 19:09:31 pkhuong: are you assuming no insanely large string-case? (the COND is necessarily O(N) in the number of clauses, whereas string-case can be sublinear, right?) 19:09:48 or assuming or having measured that the sublinearity is dominated by something else 19:10:12 on an insanely large string-case, Python would likely barf ;) 19:10:38 pkhuong: is CASE also obsolete, because we can use a cond form? 19:10:51 yeah, well. 19:10:57 some people use non-sucky compilers 19:10:59 Adlai: I wrote that macro. I'm talking about the implementation. 19:11:06 not that I'm saying we should cater for them 19:11:40 With string-case, the code size is linearly proportional to the sum of the strings' lengths. 19:12:20 pkhuong: oh, you mean that a string-case macro could, given an efficient #'string=, just expand into a cond? 19:12:45 yes. 19:13:08 okflo [n=user@93-82-150-59.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:13:35 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@89.180.0.200] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 19:14:11 Krystof: if the test forms in the cond are without side effect, cond could be smarter, and discriminate the cases in O(1) or at least better than O(n). 19:15:25 that's quite a hypothetical optimization for a COND 19:15:38 I mean, yes, but 19:15:42 Yes. 19:16:10 No compiler-macro for macros. We'd have to shadow it, or use COND* 19:16:34 angerman [n=angerman@host230.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:16:56 or accept that this fictional cond isn't going to exist, and use dedicated constructs like string-case where we really really need the O(1)ish performance 19:17:09 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 19:18:07 didn't Clinger have a paper on how to optimize cond/if-cascades? 19:18:09 Krystof: perhaps no. I mean, we could consider COND as declarative programming, and add needed "optimization" unconspisciously. 19:18:19 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:18:34 michaelw: for case. 19:18:49 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-17-7.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 19:21:36 pjb: what optimization are you thinking of? testing concurrently? 19:21:58 Yes. Or implementing a discriminating tree, etc. 19:22:43 quack [n=fhc@81.193.82.131] has joined #lisp 19:22:45 When you are comparing with constants strings, you can compute a perfect hash + one string= 19:22:47 wouldn't a discriminating tree only work with specific kinds of conditions (ones that can be grouped into such a tree)? I'm not sure how often the conditions are that nice 19:22:54 Indeed. 19:22:59 But it's often the case. 19:23:32 I believe you... I haven't written enough cond clauses yet to make that judgement :D 19:24:26 Well, I don't know if it's often the case, we would have to do some statistics. I assume expert lispers use something else than a cond when they have to discriminate on strings... 19:24:43 asksol [n=ask@249.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:24:52 But I have already written macros to generate discriminating trees in some specific cases. 19:25:11 what about a macro that would let the hacker generate the tree? 19:25:29 ie, it takes as input two trees: a condition tree, and a tree of result clauses. 19:25:55 is that overkill? 19:26:00 My point is that if we could add this kind of optimizations easily, we could let people write appearantly ineficient code, in a "declarative" way, but the system would really choose the most optimized algorithm. 19:26:49 Like compiler-macro for functions. For macros we could do something with *macroexpansion-hook*, or else we'd have to shadow the symbols. 19:29:04 -!- asksol [n=ask@249.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 19:29:11 pjb: I really dislike magic. 19:29:30 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-152.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:29:34 pkhuong: consider it "declarative" programming. 19:29:54 then use a declarative DSL 19:29:58 I like magic in its place 19:30:03 For algorithms? 19:30:08 CL is a nice DSL for algorithms. 19:30:20 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 19:30:36 e.g. magic in user-hidden discriminating functions: OK; magic in standardized macros with a clear execution model: not OK 19:30:54 Krystof: right. Explicitly magic magic is fine (: 19:31:17 asksol [n=ask@249.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:31:27 So perhaps shadowing is the right option, since you would have clearly (defpackage :mine (:use "MAGIC-CL")) 19:32:09 or (declare (magic 3½)) 19:32:09 The compiler would issue notes indicating how good a code it would have generated... 19:32:39 Krystof: one man's standardized macros are another's IR 19:32:57 I think that's my point 19:33:09 If I'm using standard CL as my IR, I don't want magic 19:33:30 So we agree. 19:33:37 violently :) 19:34:07 -!- asksol [n=ask@249.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 19:34:16 excellent 19:34:21 now all we need to do is conquer the world 19:34:26 and bake a nice cake for everybody 19:34:39 -!- quack [n=fhc@81.193.82.131] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:35:52 "Any sufficiently advanced compiler macro is indistinguishable from magic." 19:36:02 asksol [n=ask@249.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:37:31 IIRC, one of the scheme compilers (orbit?) would output which optimizations caused code transformations. I can see that being selectively useful when optimizing hot spots 19:41:32 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:41:46 -!- aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host249-98-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:43:19 %PRIMITIVE HALT called; the party is over. 19:43:25 O elder gods, why do you mock me? 19:44:43 aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host249-98-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:46:51 you taste better in despair sauce 19:47:20 nothing personal, just cthonic culinary engineering 19:49:53 I'm too old for %PRIMITIVE HALT 19:53:25 frito [n=user@62-50-199-254.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:16 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:33 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:36 -!- peddie [n=matthew@67.169.49.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:56:45 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:56:54 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:58:18 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:58:19 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.76.66] has joined #lisp 19:58:32 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 19:59:44 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-182-240.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:59:49 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has quit [No route to host] 20:00:45 -!- Suttonian [n=Suttonia@5ac8249b.bb.sky.com] has left #lisp 20:01:59 -!- moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:05:15 clhs restart-case 20:05:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_rst_ca.htm 20:07:43 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.151.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:07:54 -!- ivan-kan` [n=user@if02t2-89-83-137-164.d4.club-internet.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:12:47 hoookay, how do I debug SB-SPROF? I get this lovely message when I try to profile my horrifically slow code: 20:13:01 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:13:44 mathrick pasted "SB-SPROF wonkiness" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84345 20:13:56 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-183-63.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:14:29 jleija_ [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:33 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:14:33 mathrick: how much time does it take for that form to execute? 20:15:59 good question, the non-prof version takes about 70ms, but I changed it a bit to be able to run it outside of a request, so it might've changed 20:16:25 ugh.. is it normal for clbuild to nuke all of the systems dir when you do ./clbuild uninstall foo ? 20:16:42 -!- Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A67516.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:16:51 pkhuong: 0.02s sez TIME. So * 100 should really give some samples 20:17:15 um, which bit of your form says "* 100"? 20:17:34 :max-samples, no? 20:17:38 *mathrick* consults docs again 20:17:51 |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has joined #lisp 20:18:28 "Repeat evaluating body until samples are taken. Default is *max-samples*." 20:18:31 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 20:18:44 so unless my English comprehension has evaporated recently, that's what I' 20:18:48 d expect it to do 20:20:25 mathrick: there isn't much point if each iteration gives you 0 sample. 20:21:10 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 20:22:09 right, my understanding was off apparently 20:23:04 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:39 so, ugh, apparently 75% of time is spent inside SB-KERNEL:%FIND-POSITION 20:25:31 are cross-references in SBCL supposed to work for functions inside the CL package? 20:25:40 I get no references for CL:POSITION 20:26:23 no 20:27:00 pity 20:27:19 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 20:28:24 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:28:30 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:28:45 -!- okflo 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[n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:50:44 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:51:09 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:21 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 21:52:50 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:52:53 quack [n=fhc@bl4-82-131.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:53:32 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:30 -!- xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has quit ["Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.2.0"] 21:57:03 *Krystof* wonders what has happened to cliini 21:57:09 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 21:57:13 nikodemus: are you still in contact with him? 21:57:28 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:57:33 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:57:38 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:57:44 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 21:57:57 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:33 schmx: no! that's a bug. 22:02:11 There is "clbuild rebuild-links", but that may be only a small consolation. 22:02:21 lichtblau: Hmm. I don't know if I have broken it somehow, but it seems to do it every time I uninstall. 22:02:42 lichtblau: but maybe it's because I added stuff to dependencies and wnpp-projects I'm thinking. 22:02:54 lichtblau: Thanks, I have already had it pointed out to me :) 22:04:00 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-22-212.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:01 hmm, "clbuild uinstall" calls "clean-links". And apparently "clean-links" thinks every symlink is broken, and deletes it. 22:04:22 oh. 22:04:30 could have been worse. could'ave been a rm -rf * :) 22:04:38 I suppose that function broke when clbuild-created symlinks became relative. They used to be absolute. 22:05:01 aha 22:08:57 Patch pushed. Thanks for the report. 22:10:29 lichtblau: how do I update my clbuild? 22:10:52 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-70-254.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 22:11:06 lichtblau: no problem :) thanks for the quick fix! 22:11:19 I got it through darcs... what command will update it? 22:11:27 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:11:43 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 22:11:55 darcs pull? 22:12:15 or, darcs pull -a for no confirmations 22:12:27 stassats: thanks. 22:12:43 *Adlai* probably deserved an RTFM there... heh. 22:13:02 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:13:53 Krystof: not really, i'm sorry to say 22:15:30 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:51 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:16:16 nikodemus: ok. There is a lot in ucd.lisp that I don't understand, and some of it turns out to be magic numbers reimplemented in target-char.lisp 22:16:32 skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 22:16:34 I have an update to Unicode 5.1 22:16:46 no real extra functionality, just extra characters & names 22:17:17 ixmatus [n=ixm@wsip-24-234-73-31.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:26 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-145-48.w81-48.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:20:23 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:20:30 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:20:36 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:27 -!- prip [n=_prip@host175-122-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:39 prip [n=_prip@host91-125-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:22:10 i know what you mean -- it could use a comment block or three... 22:23:56 maybe you'd best email cliini and ask if he has notes stashed somewhere, or a spare cycle or two to look it over and comment on what he can remember? 22:27:03 -!- frito [n=user@62-50-199-254.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:27:32 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-128-166.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:14 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:30:01 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.76.66] has joined #lisp 22:30:06 jao [n=jao@21.Red-83-43-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:46 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:33:00 -!- kmels is now known as kmels-away 22:34:19 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:35:00 fvw [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.228] has joined #lisp 22:35:27 -!- fvw 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[n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:14:05 -!- lukjad007 is now known as Commander_lukjad 23:14:14 -!- bgs100 is now known as Pilot_bgs100 23:15:44 -!- Nietecht [n=chatzill@78-21-244-98.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:15:50 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:16:00 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r2r126.net.upc.cz] has quit [""GNU is (indeed) NO UNIX!""] 23:16:12 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has left #lisp 23:16:35 -!- Pilot_bgs100 is now known as bgs100 23:17:26 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:43 -!- Commander_lukjad is now known as Cmdlukjad007 23:17:59 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:18:29 koning_r1bot [n=aap@88.159.107.70] has joined #lisp 23:19:14 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:19:20 -!- koning_robot 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[n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:31 -!- Cmdlukjad007 is now known as Cptlukjad007 23:33:01 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:40 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:35:16 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [] 23:35:50 Is this the shortest non-trivial CL quine? 23:36:02 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-139-72.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:16 (#1=(LAMBDA (QUINE) `(,QUINE ',QUINE)) '#1#) 23:36:18 (if you want, replace 'quine with 'x or something "short") 23:37:03 does 42 => 42 count? .. maybe not .. :) 23:37:12 lnostdal: I'd call that trivial... 23:37:21 Demosthenes [n=demo@66.235.80.184] has joined #lisp 23:37:26 ohright .. i missed the non-trivial part 23:37:30 along with (print -), which only works at the REPL 23:38:08 that's certainly a nice short one 23:38:25 it's implementation-dependant though, because of the backquote expansion... 23:38:33 CLISP handles it "correctly", though. 23:39:02 Here's one that works from a non-REPL context: 23:39:02 #1=(write '#1# :readably t :circle t) 23:39:04 What's implementation-dependent about that, Adlai? 23:39:13 <[df]> what does - mean in that context? 23:39:21 Riastradh: it is implementation-dependent whether ` prints as `. 23:39:32 -!- |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:39:39 [df]: the form input at the repl 23:39:47 <[df]> ah, thanks :) 23:39:48 Riastradh: try that in CCL... 23:40:08 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:11 kpreid: nice! I was playing around with the traditional "lisp quine", so I didn't think of that 23:40:13 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:40:15 kpreid, well, Adlai didn't specify what `quine' meant exactly. If you read in that form to obtain an S-expression X, and then evaluate X, you get back an S-expression equal to X. 23:40:35 True. 23:40:50 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:41:12 usually a quine has to output it's source code, not an object (not in the OO sense) equivalent to the program's internal representation of its source. 23:41:48 Riastradh: Note that #1='#1# meets that definition! 23:41:59 kpreid, so does 0. 23:42:16 one must define some boundary of boringness 23:42:32 I think those count as trivial... 23:42:56 although #1='#1# is tricky, because it does get evaluated. 23:43:17 so does 0 23:43:32 both are forms which evaluate to themselves 23:43:36 true 23:44:01 I guess we have to include a statement to print circular structures as such... 23:44:04 One could argue though that the kind of form which 0 is is *defined* to return itself, whereas #1='#1# is a form which returns itself for a different reason than the type of form it is. 23:44:29 Khisanth_ [n=khisanth@pool-68-237-101-179.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:38 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-139-72.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:44:49 -!- Khisanth_ [n=khisanth@pool-68-237-101-179.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:45:12 so it's between #1=(write '#1# :readably t :circle t) and (#1=(lambda (quine) (setf *print-readably* t) `(,quine ',quine)) '#1#) 23:45:56 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:46:02 I dislike the second one for using #= notation without having circularity... 23:46:18 hm? it's circular, isn't it? 23:46:25 oh, I see. it's not circular. 23:46:44 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-124-58.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:47:12 I guess yours wins, then. 23:48:10 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229111086.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 23:50:02 kpreid: why do you even need :readably? 23:50:23 just #1=(write '#1# :circle t) seems to work fine 23:50:53 try #1=(write '#1# :readably nil :circle t) 23:51:37 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-16-233.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:58 for me it looped 23:52:11 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:52:12 anyway, :readably is just good practice for printing source code 23:52:19 comes out just fine... 23:52:20 there's gobs of ways you can get non-readable results 23:52:34 do you have *print-pretty* t? 23:53:00 CLISP - yes, CCL - no 23:53:06 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:53:09 both work fine with :readably nil 23:53:28 *shrug* I found it necessary 23:53:34 -!- quack [n=fhc@bl4-82-131.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:53:37 what does it print like otherwise? 23:54:06 a whole lot of whitespace witmixed in with the occasional '(WRITE 23:54:13 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 23:54:14 s/wit// 23:54:29 ah, of course. 23:54:30 heh. 23:54:45 Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 23:54:50 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has left #lisp 23:54:52 Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 23:55:51 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:57:58 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-119.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]