00:00:45 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 00:03:31 Thanks to everyone who helped! 00:03:34 Bye for now! 00:04:07 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:04:31 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:05:06 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 00:09:10 -!- windows7_yow [i=d11f2105@gateway/web/freenode/x-e066ce2f00b613d0] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 00:09:44 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-174-191-229.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:32 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:11:37 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:45 -!- asksol [n=ask@249.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:13:32 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has joined #lisp 00:13:48 -!- blackened` 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(:default-initargs :bar *baz*)) would be difficult to spot :) 01:00:04 -!- cavelife^ [n=cavelife@211.201.172.38] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:02:08 hahaha 01:03:17 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 01:03:41 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:04:34 -!- konr [n=konrad@189.96.117.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:04:44 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Success] 01:05:58 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.246.90] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:06:30 konr [n=konrad@189.0.27.94] has joined #lisp 01:06:37 -!- kmels-cena is now known as kmels 01:07:24 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 01:08:27 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:10:15 -!- konr [n=konrad@189.0.27.94] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:11:45 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has 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Quit] 01:28:31 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-184-190.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:30:45 Adlai [n=user@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:25 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:33:12 -!- tessier__ [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:04 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-28-50.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:35:37 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p9035-ipngn101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:37:11 kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has joined #lisp 01:37:37 siewlsfasd [n=user@75.110.164.231] has joined #lisp 01:38:34 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-183-234.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:40:11 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:32 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 01:42:56 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:20 can someone quickly explain the semantics of barriers in doug lea's fork/join (java) library? 01:45:02 perhaps you want #java? 01:45:08 no. 01:45:32 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-29-72.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:47:38 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable239.238-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:48:04 pkhuong: are you trying to reimplement it for CL? 01:48:15 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:48:43 p_l: partly. 01:49:05 looks to me like a class map/reduce thingy, but I just started reading his paper on it 01:49:43 with join being a barrier for finishing of tasks 01:50:31 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 01:51:05 not quite no. At the heart it's much like futures (c.f. cilk). It's just the barrier part which isn't explained at all in the paper, and barriers don't make a lot of sense to me with nested parallelism. 01:54:35 I didn't mean that it's exactly a map/reduce thing, but it divides them similarly, i.e. fork-out into subtasks and then wait for completion of all of them, maybe doing something on data returned from them... 01:54:55 most complicated stuff is with regards to synchronisation of worker threads and scheduler 01:55:32 right, nested parallelism. Map/reduce is just a very restricted subset of that pattern. 01:56:51 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable239.238-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:59:12 gko [n=Keca@114-137-89-106.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:39 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 02:09:29 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:11:33 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:12:09 wakeup_vanuber [n=wakeup@koln-4db42968.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 02:12:11 -!- siewlsfasd [n=user@75.110.164.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:14:07 jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 02:15:47 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 02:17:17 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:17:45 davazp` [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:15 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:20:12 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:23:49 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 02:25:03 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d81711a.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:11 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:12 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@74-95-9-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:21 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@74-95-9-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:31:14 -!- ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:33:03 Adlai` [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 02:34:18 -!- Adlai [n=user@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:34:25 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 02:35:49 mqt [n=tran@c-71-63-182-235.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:01 -!- mqt [n=tran@c-71-63-182-235.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:44:46 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:46:59 -!- gko [n=Keca@114-137-89-106.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:47:35 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:47:42 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:35 i would like to use an integer as the seed for the random number generator so that i can get repeatable sequences. but make-random-state only seems to make states out of other states. 02:51:13 jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 02:51:30 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.29.199] has joined #lisp 02:53:14 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-d1aaf85b0d6d03f1] has joined #lisp 02:53:24 Is it true the SBCL natively supports unicode? 02:54:35 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.29.199] has quit [Success] 02:55:06 FSVO "native support". 02:56:01 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit ["leaving"] 02:57:11 dto: why does that not suffice? 02:57:27 seems like it doesn't matter what the seed is so long as it can be saved/restored 02:58:25 Anyone know a handy way to find the rgb value for a pixel in an image on OS X? 02:58:44 "an image"? 02:58:49 jpg 02:59:08 Sorry, I forgot "image" is overloaded in this channel. 02:59:10 probably a better (and more googlable) question would be if anyone knows a good jpg lib. 02:59:16 pkhuong: It seems that characters are at least 16 bits in sbcl, no? 02:59:52 wgl: if you build with :sb-unicode, all the code points can be natively represented as characters. 03:01:21 pkhuong: Will check my build for that. The reason that this comes up is I am passing stuff, largely strings, over sockets and have been thinking they are bytes. I need to add binary to that socket flow and am now checking if it works the way that it needs to. 03:01:54 likely not. Characters aren't byte. 03:02:36 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-127.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:03:16 Right. build is :sb-unicode, so there is a fortuitous translation happening, as this has been working for some time. Best if i pass bytes over socket and co (char-code ..) and (code-char ..) translations. 03:05:55 wgl: with :sb-unicode, standard-character is 21bit iirc 03:06:52 Ok, so now putting in the char/code stuff. 03:07:01 p_l,pkhuong: thanks. 03:08:13 wgl: won't that make you incapable of transmitting chars with codes >255? 03:08:31 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 03:09:47 railth: Yes, but I will be using byte packing/unpacking as the stream will be passing both binary data (eg, 32-bit quantities) and characters <255. I am using a fairly restricted set of characters, so 8 bits works for that. 03:11:01 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:11:27 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:11 btw, be careful with some characters in code. I just found out that certain kind of space can be thought as part of function name 03:14:08 *p_l* was rather surprised when he got "The function CHAR-NAME is undefined." <-- notice the error 03:14:21 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:14:22 That's fine, as what I want to pass is certainly restricted to ascii subset. 03:14:28 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:14:35 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:15:12 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:12 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:15:52 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:16:07 it would make for "nice" unreadable code if I used ideographic spaces in symbol names... 03:16:44 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:17:34 p_l: it would be even nicer if you used *only* ideographic spaces 03:17:41 and defined your own package for all your stuff :) 03:17:59 FWIW, the answer to my OT question is, on OS X /Applications/Utilities/DigitalColor Meter 03:18:17 wgl: I might be missing some context. But you can use byte vectors. And SBCL also has 8-bit chars, not sure if that helps. 03:21:43 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:23:55 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-194.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:24:28 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:50 gko [n=Keca@114-137-89-106.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:12 luis: How are 8-bit chars declared? 03:27:47 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:34:22 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 03:34:31 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:27 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 03:36:42 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:11 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 03:43:01 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:43:11 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:45:05 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 03:45:13 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:47:24 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:50:51 wgl: (make-string length :element-type 'base-char) 03:51:14 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has joined #lisp 03:52:41 the string type is base-string 03:52:51 Adlai: name the package as 'code #\ ) 03:53:02 damned x selection 03:53:09 p_l: ? 03:53:25 name the package "" 03:53:49 p_l: haha, yes. 03:53:57 gko` [n=Keca@114-137-89-106.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:57 (:weirdfunctionname arg) 03:53:59 also, you'd need readmacros for parens. 03:54:29 CL crossed with Whitespace :P 03:54:55 how about throwing in some LOLCODE in the mix? 03:55:04 #\( = HAI, #\) = BAI 03:56:10 -!- gko [n=Keca@114-137-89-106.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:58:05 nerdshark [n=dorkfish@74-131-32-72.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 04:03:55 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl834.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:07:10 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:14 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 04:08:21 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 04:10:07 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:10:07 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["GAME TIME"] 04:13:55 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 04:14:19 Adamant [n=Adamant@66.213.192.210] has joined #lisp 04:16:04 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:17:31 jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 04:18:19 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-127.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:19:48 -!- jao [n=jao@187.Red-83-50-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:23:32 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["GAME TIME, yet again."] 04:27:44 jan247_ [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 04:28:04 p_l: it would have to be (| :: foo| 'bar) or something, but a package name of " " is legal. 04:28:28 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has left #lisp 04:28:37 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:33:40 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:48 y hallo thar 04:33:51 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-d1aaf85b0d6d03f1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:34:20 fiveop [n=fiveop@e179125184.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 04:34:35 So, I pose a seemingly simple question: 04:34:53 Should I look into learning Common Lisp, or Scheme? 04:34:57 Yes. 04:35:11 -_- 04:35:25 No, I mean, between the two, which should I learn? 04:35:45 Why do you want to learn? 04:36:04 ooh. 04:36:53 Is that a trick question? 04:37:06 No. 04:37:35 -!- jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:38:10 seisatsu: why do you need to choose? Learn both 04:38:25 What is it that you want to get out of this learning? 04:39:01 Everyone says that once you "get" lisp, you will be forever "enlightened", and crazy stuff like that. .-. 04:39:23 As if it's a radically different approach to programming. 04:39:49 But, I have really never taken any look at it. 04:39:53 Ah. You want enlightenment. 04:40:16 Start with CL. Then move on to scheme. Then move back to CL. Then keep going. 04:40:42 o.o 04:40:52 alright. 04:40:55 CL will teach your macrology, metacircularity and syncreticism. Scheme will teach your hygeine, continuations and purity. 04:41:51 I didn't understand any of what you just said. ^_^ 04:42:07 seisatsu: if you really want to get enlightened, then add Haskell, Prolog and maybe Erlang to the list... 04:42:08 Well, buy a dictionary. 04:42:25 Ah, yes, I was looking at haskell. 04:42:48 Haskell will teach you laziness and simple static typing. 04:42:50 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 04:42:52 morning 04:43:00 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:43:05 But, the problem is that I've only ever worked with C-like languages, and want to expand to different mindsets. 04:43:36 seisatsu: then CL+Scheme+Haskell+Prolog will definitely change your mindset :D 04:43:45 Though, because I only know about imperative programming, everything else seems foreign and difficult to grasp. 04:43:48 seisatsu: CL and scheme are procedural, like C. 04:43:58 if you want them to be! 04:44:08 but they can be other things too. 04:44:10 seisatsu: I suggest looking at it like this. 04:44:22 I want to see programming from every angle. 04:44:29 Ralith: well, just like you can do most stuff inside IO Monad :P 04:44:32 seisatsu: C has one important idea -- all objects are in vectors -- everything is a linear sequence. 04:44:40 -!- konr [n=konrad@189.96.63.218] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:44:41 Right, I get that. 04:44:54 p_l: yeah, but in lisp it's not an ugly hack ^^ 04:45:13 and in lisp? 04:45:18 (not to say that monads are an ugly hack, necessarily, but I found them very annoying.) 04:45:26 seisatsu: Lisp has an important idea -- nested sequences. 04:45:51 define sequences. 04:46:02 seisatsu: Pointers vs. Pairs. 04:46:13 seisatsu: You really need that dictionary. :) 04:46:27 seisatsu: Lists as well... 04:46:36 I know about lists. 04:47:06 And as far as pointers, I have more backing in python and only a little in C, so I don't completely understand them. 04:47:26 seisatsu: think "references" 04:47:55 pointers are actually pretty simple. 04:48:12 A pointer is an index into a vector of objects. 04:48:14 they eponymously point somewhere else. 04:48:49 You can think of them as pairs of { vector, index }, if you like. 04:49:12 mm. 04:51:06 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-a529c38bbabfb475] has joined #lisp 04:53:28 hmmm... 52bit vector address and 12bit index? :D 04:53:54 eck 04:54:02 so many clisp interpreters 04:54:06 what should I use? 04:54:11 You'd need at least 16 bit index due to the minimum object maximum size. 04:54:24 clisp is one interpreter. 04:54:31 You should use CL to refer to Common Lisp. 04:54:40 It doesn't really matter which CL system you use to start with. 04:54:41 ah 04:54:54 I guess I'll stick with ANSI. 04:54:59 clisp is easy to install and has a nice beginner's interface. 04:55:18 Uh, ANSI? 04:55:27 seisatsu: also, they're not interpreters. 04:55:28 they're compilers. 04:55:29 I think you're confusing specification with implementation. 04:55:33 They're interpreters. 04:55:36 -.- 04:55:40 compilers! 04:55:41 They just include compilers. 04:55:51 If they weren't interpreters then they couldn't do anything. 04:56:07 you could call g++ an interpreter by that logic :P 04:56:08 yes, nevermind. The description in my package manager confused me. 04:56:10 So, think of them as interpreters which extend themselves via compilation in many cases. 04:56:24 Ralith: g++ interprets templates, sure. 04:56:38 the point to get across is that lisp is not an interpreted language in the popular sense. 04:56:40 It said that clisp is an ANSI common lisp interpreter, and I read that wrong. 04:57:09 Good morning. 04:57:10 hm, the tutorials I'm coming across all start with the interpreter. 04:57:19 it is typically compiled, even when using a REPL. 04:57:28 In interactive mode. 04:57:33 seisatsu: interactive != interpreted. 04:57:39 jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 04:57:45 really? 04:57:48 yes. 04:58:05 Ralith: So, what do you think an interpreter is? 04:58:14 seisatsu: incremental compilation. 04:58:16 It's evaluating one line at a time. 04:58:32 Zhivago: 52bit and 12bit index is how a pointer looks on x86-64 XD (obscure joke, I know...) 04:58:34 seisatsu: Ralith is confused about compilers and interpreters -- probably due to the belief that interpreters are somehow bad. 04:58:38 morning beach 04:58:41 ok 04:58:47 ... 04:58:51 >.< 04:58:56 I didn't think it would be sane to compile one line at a time. 04:59:05 that would be silly. 04:59:07 saisatsu: Nothing particularly insane about it. 04:59:20 it works quite well, in fact. 04:59:32 I just think an interpreter would be better in that case. 04:59:32 saisatsu: But, generally speaking, even implementations which use incremental compilation do interpret simple expressions directly. 04:59:56 saisatsu: Since compiling (* 4 5) is silly when you can just interpret that as an application. 04:59:57 ding, it's installed 05:00:16 Zhivago: that's a uselessly trivial case :P 05:00:25 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@e179127085.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:00:26 saisatsu: On the other hand, there's not much point in making an interpreter for interpreting functions like (lambda (x) (+ x 2)) if you have an incremental compiler. 05:00:38 Ralith: It's sufficient to point out why you are confused. 05:00:51 Ralith: Interpreter isn't a dirty word. 05:00:59 interesting... Putting a single plus sign at the beginning of a list of items to be added :D 05:01:01 you're being incredibly condescending. 05:01:07 It even saves space 05:01:18 Ralith: You're misusing the word 'condescending'. 05:01:42 *Ralith* goes back to his considerably more polite book. 05:01:47 But, can I add, subtract, and multiply terms on the same line? 05:02:04 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@e179125184.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:02:10 seisatsu: Try it. 05:03:24 I'm trying to derive the syntax on my own, having only seen the line (+ 2 2) 05:03:59 Why not get a book? 05:04:11 I have one but it's fun this way :P 05:05:05 Well, you might enjoy asking stupid questions ... 05:05:44 stress on the word you 05:06:13 aha 05:07:17 seisatsu: syntax is simple: ( arg....) 05:07:44 yes, I see 05:07:49 Generally it's best to ask intelligent questions. :) 05:07:52 where is kinda like header used to select what form is called 05:07:52 I'm reading my tutorial. 05:08:06 seisatsu: which one? So we might weed some weird stuff :D 05:08:15 wikibooks. 05:08:32 http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Common_Lisp/First_steps/Beginner_tutorial 05:09:13 You might also search for "Practical Common Lisp". 05:09:20 wikibooks one isn't so bad, but since you mentioned C, you might like PCL 05:09:28 minion: tell seisatsu about pcl 05:09:29 seisatsu: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 05:10:31 it has the advantage of being rather complete 05:10:50 okey dokey 05:12:48 wow 05:13:01 lisp looks nice 05:13:09 to read, I mean 05:14:13 I think of it as being similar to natural language with explicit clause markers. 05:15:03 If you rewrote what you write with all of the clauses explicitly marked, as in a topic-comment structure, then it should be pretty close to lisp. 05:15:39 s/as/and/ 05:16:20 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 05:18:58 oh wow 05:19:36 I hardly ever see the sed convention used to correct typos in chat. It's usually an asterisk. :D 05:19:59 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:20:03 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 05:20:46 guh. This tutorial moves so fast. I don't have time to sink things in. 05:21:31 It's like they're trying to make you "Learn Common Lisp in 10 Minutes!" 05:21:33 read more slowly 05:24:11 seisatsu: scared of relational database implemented in, iirc, chapter 2? :D 05:24:51 oh wow 05:24:59 sei: Just remember that lisp is a fundamentally simple language. 05:25:19 sei: It is much simpler than C, and somewhat simpler than python. 05:25:56 Does that make it less powerful at all? 05:26:41 No. 05:26:53 In many ways it makes it significantly more powerful. 05:26:55 concepts are simple but different 05:27:00 wow, the page for the practical CL book has a quote from this irc room. 05:27:11 The author also comes here. 05:27:12 -!- davazp` [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:27:28 oh neat 05:27:40 I think I'll get the book. 05:27:42 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:27:47 when you get to the more advanced features of lisp, you have to learn concepts you don't encounter elsewhere. that's the hardest part 05:27:58 hm 05:28:10 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest97238 05:28:43 What I really fear going into though is Haskell. It's like I have to throw out everything I know about coding and start from scratch. 05:28:45 separating read-time, compile-time and run-time when all you have is a repl isn't very easy :) 05:28:47 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 05:29:10 sei: Nonsense. 05:29:22 It certainly seems that way. 05:29:26 sei: All you need to learn for haskell is lazy evaluation and its type system. 05:29:46 The syntax looks so foreign. 05:29:54 Syntax is largely irrelevant. 05:30:04 Actually, haskell syntax is quite similar to lisp syntax. 05:30:27 Maybe the tutorial I was reading did a poor job. 05:30:30 The main difference is that they leave out the parentheses in the default case. 05:30:35 I got a bad impression. 05:31:20 Imagine that + defaulted to two arguments, so you could write + 1 2 instead of (+ 1 2), but could still write (+ 1 2 3) 05:31:26 Zhivago: haskell looks like perl to me... :\ 05:31:32 fancy symbols everywhere. 05:31:43 Then you'd end up with stuff like + 1 * 3 4 instead of (+ 1 (* 3 4)) 05:31:52 Nothing terribly exciting there. 05:32:03 is lisp a functional language then? 05:32:13 seisatsu: no. It's a multiparadigm language. 05:32:15 Zhivago: haskell syntax allows for automatic currying 05:32:24 sei: Lisp is a family of languages. Almost all are procedural with support for functional programming styles. 05:32:35 Zhivago: so if f is a function of two arguments, then f x is a function of one argument 05:33:13 slava: that's not haskell syntax per se 05:33:13 slava: All haskell functions take one argument. The syntax just hides the decomposition in the default case. 05:33:19 ^ 05:33:20 seisatsu: there exist lazy pure functional variants of Lisp. One I remember was actually a compiler to CL :) 05:33:35 Zhivago: hence, haskell syntax allows for automatic currying 05:33:57 it wouldn't work in lisp unless you ditched variadic functions, at which point the parens would just get in the way 05:33:59 p_l: Qi? 05:34:00 slava: Which is the same as using it for variable numbers of arguments. 05:34:27 right, the automatic currying is one interesting aspect of haskell. I'm not saying its better than lisp, or wose 05:34:34 worse* 05:34:40 It would work fine in lisp if you just specified which variables should be required to complete the curry -- e.g., (+ a _) -> (lambda (_) (+ a _)) 05:34:56 I believe clojure has something similar, except you prefix with % 05:35:02 so %(+ a _) or something. 05:35:15 It just comes down to lisp being explicit about clauses and haskell being implicit about them. 05:35:20 You could implement that as a macro, couldn't you? 05:35:23 clauses? 05:35:30 Ralith: yes, and people have, many times 05:35:36 heh, cool 05:35:44 any popular standard impl? 05:35:45 Ralith: usually its called 'cut'. so (cut + 3 _) 05:35:49 not that I'm aware of. 05:36:01 -!- kidd [n=kidd@119.Red-79-152-42.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:36:01 aw. 05:36:07 why's it called cut? 05:36:27 in schemeland there's a srfi for it: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-26/srfi-26.html 05:37:03 so... 05:38:08 sykopomp: No, much, much earlier one 05:38:37 For a purely functional language, should I look at Haskell, OCaml, or SML? 05:38:47 -!- rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:38:52 sykopomp: It was defined in some book about pure functional programming (it might not have laziness - I only skimmed it) 05:38:56 seisatsu: Haskell, IMHO 05:38:57 kidd [n=kidd@209.Red-88-11-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:57 rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 05:39:12 any concurrences? 05:39:38 OCaml is quite nice too, afaik - if you want to develop on .NET it might be useful to know, as F# is based on OCaml 05:39:46 rather, do you all agree that I should look into haskell? 05:39:58 seisatsu: of the three you list only Haskell is pure 05:40:09 oic. 05:40:21 seisatsu: You should look into as many languages as you have the energy for. 05:40:33 ML has refs which are mutable memory locations, as well as imperitive I/O 05:40:51 beach: that's the problem 05:40:57 ocaml is nowhere near pure. 05:41:00 I would love to learn all three, 05:41:12 But that won't work for me. 05:41:18 seisatsu: Sorry, what three? I missed the context. 05:41:28 Haskell, OCaml, SML 05:41:34 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 05:41:35 drewc: ocaml's compiler also isn't very good at optimizing idiomatic functional code 05:41:36 -!- tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [K-lined] 05:41:37 besides looking at just purity 05:41:41 We were beight taught Haskell at university. A very good language to learn. 05:41:44 seisatsu: I think you can skip SML. 05:41:51 hm 05:41:56 seisatsu: SML has some interesting compilers, like MLton 05:42:13 seisatsu: Start with Common Lisp, then Haskell, then perhaps OCaml. 05:42:39 ok 05:43:18 urk 05:43:40 practical common lisp is really expensive in "dead tree" format. 05:44:00 seisatsu: worth every penny, and then some. 05:44:14 Maybe I should just use the online version. 05:44:30 i've bought at least 5 copies in my day... gave them all away :) 05:44:45 (i still have a copy, but i didn't buy it) 05:45:33 hmm 05:45:46 seisatsu: start with online version, get dead tree one later if it helped you :) 05:45:46 absolute bottom line price I can find is $40 05:45:50 ok 05:46:16 Real World Haskell has an online version too. 05:46:19 $40 is cheap ... i payed twice that for PAIP IIRC :) 05:46:35 $40 isn't cheap when you can't find a job. :< 05:46:37 PCL is a fantastic deal. 05:46:46 seisatsu: then just read it on the website :D 05:47:01 seisatsu: consider it an investment... learn lisp, get a job lisping :P 05:47:16 seisatsu: What kind of training do you have? 05:47:20 drewc: no one gets paid for lisp! 05:47:24 <_< 05:47:26 I'm just starting college, so I'm basically mass-applying to large retail chains in my area. 05:47:41 sykopomp: hell ... i _pay_ people to lisp. 05:47:48 I have no /official/ training. 05:47:59 no certifications, no degrees. 05:48:11 sykopomp: lispers just don't get their work from monster.com ;) 05:48:24 drewc: ;D 05:48:42 Where does one search for a real job if not on the internet? 05:48:47 The newspaper? D: 05:49:01 seisatsu: I've been asking myself that for about a year. "Contacts" seems to be the answer. 05:49:05 -!- Guest97238 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 05:49:15 seisatsu: in my experience, the jobs search for you. 05:49:15 that's interesting... 05:49:22 it's not what you know. 05:49:32 drewc: nobody is going to search for me for a very long time. 05:50:12 seisatsu: the initial foot in the door is the hard part. 05:50:18 ^ 05:50:40 yeah 05:51:03 hey, look at it on the bright side. 05:51:10 at least your degree isn't in film! 05:51:10 :D 05:52:03 *drewc* has a masters of fine beer 05:52:28 drewc: a worthy cause, of course. 05:52:57 sykopomp: i studied very hard 05:53:10 :) 05:53:33 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:53:44 the phd in scotch is taking a lot longer... i should study more! :) 05:53:57 what're you doing on IRC? get to it! 05:54:33 Ralith: i take night courses in cider... i'm on it ;) 05:55:11 perhaps some sort of internship would be fitting? 05:55:39 drewc: getting piled higher and deeper in scotch bottles? :D 05:55:53 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 05:57:02 lol 05:57:16 "you spend less time convincing the compiler you should be allowed to run your code" 05:57:28 I know the feeling ._. 05:58:55 seisatsu: on the bright side, CL debugging with SLIME isn't that hard. I feel sorry for people that have to deal with crazier Haskell bugs 05:59:10 seisatsu: the counter argument being "you spend more time fixing bugs the type system would have caught". 05:59:27 true. 05:59:59 also "You don't discover those bugs until certain conditions are somehow met during runtime. Surprise!" 06:00:34 delicious condition system om nom nom. 06:00:54 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:05 i _really_ appreciate sbcl's compiler warnings... getting a nice red underline in slime when the type system knows i'm wrong is a good thing. 06:01:07 delicious indeed. 06:01:18 slime's underlines are great in general. 06:01:36 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:01:50 slime is great in general. 06:03:08 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 06:04:17 very true. 06:04:32 and GHC RTS debugging is hell, so be happy with CL :P 06:04:45 Isn't that why haskell has a static type system? :) 06:05:54 there's a part of me that really wants to believe in static type systems, and a part of me that's a hacker. ne'er the two shall meet. 06:08:00 Zhivago: let's say that FRP implementation turned out to kick safety out of runtime ;-) 06:08:27 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:08:36 at least as far as I understood my acquaintance :) 06:09:21 FRP? Fibreglass Reinforced Plastic? 06:09:36 minion: what does FRP stand for? 06:09:36 Farseeing Richling Protarsus 06:09:39 ahh ok 06:11:39 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:12:42 Functional Reactive Programming 06:13:34 oic 06:14:04 drewc: I dunnoit seems to me like a sufficiently general and implicit type system (like haskell's) does away with the disadvantages. 06:14:29 what does dynamic typing get you that that doesn't cover? 06:14:47 Ralith: the ability to run unsafe code. 06:15:33 And the ability to run safe code, but that the compiler cannot prove to be safe. 06:15:50 that too. 06:16:10 which translate to easier interactive development. 06:16:15 methinks 06:16:20 yep 06:16:23 indeed 06:17:04 (and rapid development, too, I guess.) 06:17:16 who needs provable stability, anyways, amirite? 06:17:41 Ralith: seems to me like a sufficiently high SAFETY level gets me nice type errors/warnings at compile time... does that do away with the disadvantages of dynamic typing? :) 06:18:15 drewc: well, for one thing that's simply because we happen to have a Sufficiently Smart Compiler. 06:18:27 drewc: do you usually turn up the safety level once you've got a solid base down? 06:18:40 Ralith: haskell _requires_ a SSC :) 06:18:43 Ralith: and ghc isn't clever? 06:18:48 drewc: that's my point. 06:18:52 that seems like a good thing. 06:19:14 I understand the basic idea that dynamic typing lets you get away with more cleverness, but can you give me any examples of something that a type system like Haskell's disallows which is still very useful? 06:19:22 'return nil from anything' doesn't count. 06:19:47 Ralith: rapid prototyping, fully interactive development. 06:19:58 sykopomp: those aren't specific examples :P 06:20:04 Ralith: they are. 06:20:16 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:20:17 though I think I followchanging types on the fly without having to adjust everything else to accommodate, right? 06:20:30 also, the whole modify-running-code-on-the-fly doesn't fly that well with haskell. 06:20:35 afaict, at least. 06:20:44 that may be an implementation issue rather than a design one. 06:20:48 so that whole thing we were doing with sykobot? That don't fly. 06:21:16 so is my interpretation above correct? 06:21:20 Ralith: something like that.... sometimes i want to see a type error at runtime to help me figure out why i'm getting a type error at run time. 06:21:43 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has quit ["leaving"] 06:21:45 Ralith: from what I'm told, haskell's compiled code isn't typed at all :) 06:21:48 drewc: I don't follow. Wouldn't you just get the type error at compiletime and be done with it, given static typing? 06:21:58 sykopomp: answer my question already >:| 06:22:21 Ralith: you want me to answer you what you want to hear, and I'm not going to. 06:22:38 what I want to hear is one of "yes" or "no" 06:22:49 Ralith: but i have no way to run the code and figure out _why_ i'm getting the type error.... so i have to read the source and try to appease the compiler when often it's obvious once i look at a stack trace. 06:22:51 these seem to cover the range of possibilities pretty thoroughly to me 06:22:55 (random-elt '(t nil)) 06:22:57 drewc: ahh. 06:22:58 good point. 06:23:28 *Ralith* recalls much time spent frustratedly staring at a few lines of haskell trying to work out why it ended up with a recursive type 06:23:31 Ralith: a 99% running system with 1% type errors is still 99% useful... i'd like to be able to compile it and run it :) 06:24:29 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:24:37 dryahetzeph [n=blank@208.97.42.75] has joined #lisp 06:24:53 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:25:09 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:25:12 Quadrescence [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #lisp 06:25:14 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 06:25:20 Ralith, Monomorphism restriction is one of the things that Haskell's type system has bothered me with. Of course, there are extensions to disable it, but the base type system disallows it. 06:25:20 Ralith: and i'm not advocating weak typing... just dynamic strong types. 06:25:20 dwh: monomorphism restriction? 06:25:21 Ralith, http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Monomorphism_restriction 06:25:21 *Ralith* reads 06:25:21 Ralith, I'm not clever enough to explain it properly, I just know I always end up butting heads with it. 06:25:21 make that 06:25:21 *Ralith* waits for firefox to catch up 06:25:21 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:25 -!- Bootvis_ [i=bob@baltar.lan.endoria.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:25:29 Not all errors are type errors. 06:25:31 Bootvis [i=bob@baltar.lan.endoria.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:49 And haskell's type system cannot express a whole bunch of stuff due to its design. 06:26:11 Something like Qi makes a good compromise between the two, and has a type system that's sufficiently flexible to handle inconsistent type systems. 06:26:40 dwh: I don't entirely follow why that issue exists, but that certainly does seem annoying. 06:26:41 Which means that you can shoot yourself in the foot, but at least you can do it. 06:26:54 imo the ability to shoot yourself in the foot is critical to a good gun. 06:27:00 Zhivago: Qi is very cool indeed... if i wanted static-ness i'd probably look there first. 06:27:27 drewc: Well, Qi doesn't restrict you to static typing. 06:28:06 Zhivago: no, that' true... but it offers it , and just about any other type system you can come up with really. 06:28:56 kljhfds 06:29:05 gah ... ferret on keyboard 06:31:01 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:32:34 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:36:50 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:38:30 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:42:12 -!- hydrapheetz [n=blank@208.97.42.75] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:42:16 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:42:26 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:42:35 drewc: at least i didn't let my furry on the kbd, http://www.flickr.com/photos/26671399@N02/3733749366/in/set-72157621655528096/ 06:43:07 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:43:12 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 06:50:45 metawilm [n=willem@e179146190.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:55:46 -!- gko` [n=Keca@114-137-89-106.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:57:00 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@76.122.37.30] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:57:57 ASau [n=user@host71-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:02:15 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-162-201.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:03:07 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:03:55 good morning 07:04:46 morning 07:05:10 prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:38 Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:07:50 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@76.122.37.30] has joined #lisp 07:09:29 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:14:29 "Why Haskell? Community: * Intelligent; * Enthusiastic; * Unemployed" 07:20:51 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has joined #lisp 07:23:15 Harag pasted "CAse ?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83988 07:24:17 I am having some strange behavior with the case statement...oe am I missing something? 07:25:34 is there supose to be an exit like in a switch statement? 07:27:29 no, case uses eql for comparison and two strings are rarely eql 07:27:30 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:28:42 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:13 Harag annotated #83988 "Case only for numbers/symbols?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83988#1 07:29:15 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:29:21 eish 07:29:24 Harag: try: switch("abc") case "def": return 1; case "abc": return 2; default: return 3;} in your favorite C implementation... 07:29:26 thanx ilitirit 07:30:14 Harag: you _could_ have the same string in the case instruction and in your variable... (case #1="abc" ("def" 1) (#1# 2) (otherwise 3)) 07:30:39 or: (let ((var #1="abc")) (case var ("def" 1) (#1# 2) (otherwise 3))) 07:30:45 Harag: ALEXANDRIA:SWITCH (which I consider to be badly named) works for strings 07:31:15 thanx I think I will just use cond and go on with my life 07:31:33 then at least I can specify the comparison 07:31:35 Yes, cond is good. 07:31:51 Harag: Yeah SWITCH expands to COND which is the reason why it's badly named 07:32:20 good morning 07:37:07 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:37:54 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:40:47 asksol [n=ask@47.247.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 07:40:51 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 07:47:56 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has quit ["leaving"] 07:49:12 I wrote down some ideas for requirements of an "OCR" system in Common Lisp. You will find my rants here: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Lisp-projects/ocr.html (feedback welcome). 07:49:36 hello beach 07:49:47 Hey mvilleneuve! How is married life? 07:49:58 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@88.88.65.49] has quit ["Verlassend"] 07:52:27 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:52:47 beach: it seems to me to be not so much of OCR as general document recovery tool 07:52:57 p_l: Sure, if you like. 07:53:32 beach: I still think reusing standard OCR mechanisms would be beneficial, if only to improve capabilities 07:53:49 this, plus some stuff from translation tools 07:53:57 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:54:13 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.134.86] has joined #lisp 07:54:21 beach: so far, just like before, apart from the ring :) 07:54:49 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit [Success] 07:54:57 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 07:56:21 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-205-34-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:58:14 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 07:58:43 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:59:11 beach: interesting. On a presentational note, it might be worth making it clearer that the second bulleted list is (more or less) ordered. 07:59:28 p_l: Still, I'll rename it so that there will be no misunderstandings. 07:59:51 splittist: OK, remind me what the HTML tag is for that. 08:00:39
    as in Ordered List 08:01:21 beach:
      with no domain knowledge, at what stage does the system 'learn' that a dot goes with a stroke, for example. 08:01:51 beach: You assume that words are produced by the concatenation of glyphs. 08:02:14 splittist: Typically, the user would manually select areas that contain diacritics as well as other stuff. 08:02:58 Harag, This allows you to specify the comparison somewhat for CASE, http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/a79ba3b04895a4d8 08:03:25 yoonkn_ [n=yoonkn@210.108.170.70] has joined #lisp 08:03:36 beach: Wouldn't it be better to avoid the idea of words, and just measure the fit of each glyph and its neighbours to an n-gram model? 08:03:46 Zhivago: When appropriate for a particular langauge. I realize this is not universal, but very useful for many scripts. 08:03:57 Zhivago: That might be possible 08:04:37 The problem with trying to divide unknown text into words is that you don't know how -- I suggest not trying. 08:04:57 Zhivago: Yes, I understood. 08:04:59 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has joined #lisp 08:06:10 I'd suggest going one step further, and presenting this as a form of lossy compression to ideal forms. 08:06:36 Since you don't know how to produce the forms in a linear output, you need to keep the geometry in any case. 08:06:37 Zhivago: There is an existing paper on that particular usage. 08:07:05 thanx dwh 08:07:09 Zhivago: Yes, keeping the position of each glyph instance is essential. 08:07:50 Zhivago: The paper I am talking about also (optionally) includes a residual bitmap which makes it possible to exactly reproduce the original, but I don't find that very useful. 08:08:23 Useful for debugging. 08:08:49 Also useful for where you have iconic and non-iconic images overlaid -- as in a map with symbols on it. 08:09:18 Sounds right. 08:09:19 -!- yoonkn__ [n=yoonkn@210.108.170.70] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:09:46 I'd avoid calling it OCR, then. 08:09:55 I will change the name. 08:10:19 Also note that you have no way to prevent it from recognising what you would consider a cluster of icons as a single icon. 08:10:46 Zhivago: Sure I do. 08:10:55 No, you don't. 08:10:59 Consider the word 'the'. 08:11:17 How many glyphs should 'th' take to represent it? 08:11:51 Zhivago: If the user manually creates each category, and only enters single letters in each category, then if the distance metric is picky, a cluster of icons would not be considered to be in a particular category. 08:12:12 'Semantic Recovery Workbench'? 08:12:30 Then you'll have an enormous amount of manual work. 08:12:41 Zhivago: On the other hand, if the user wants to recognize ligatures as separate glyph categories, then he or she would presumable enter those into a separate category. 08:12:43 Why not just allow an icon to represent an arbitrary amount of data? 08:13:05 Zhivago: no, not enormous for most languages. That's the very basis if the scenario. 08:13:10 That would also improve your recall. 08:13:32 It being easier to recognise 'ti' than 't' and 'i' separately, I suspect. 08:13:58 I suggest avoiding the ideas of 'character' and 'word' as being essentially political constructs. 08:14:19 Stick to icons, and allow your slaves to set up a translation from an icon to a symbol. 08:14:24 Zhivago: Then I would have to abandon the OCR part of it. 08:15:18 Yes. It would become a system for recognising icons on a sheet, and another system for translating icons on a sheet into a symbolic text. 08:15:26 Without recognising characters. 08:15:41 Zhivago: But yeah, it should be possible to associate any sequence of characters with a glyph category, sich as fi, ffi, ffl, etc. 08:16:10 Thanks for the input, I'll work on it. 08:16:12 Right -- which means that you can now forget about 'character' and 'word'. 08:16:42 'System To Recover All Wholly Meaningful Abstract Notions' 08:16:56 roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-162-109.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:02 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:17:05 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-162-109.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:17:19 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 08:18:36 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-a529c38bbabfb475] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:23:06 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:26:15 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:26:24 -!- rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:26:24 -!- PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:26:42 Do Lisp interprenters have to complie to the ANSI standard behaviour? Oddly no, in particular expanding macro's each time they are invoked violates the compiler standard. 08:27:09 paw` [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:27:48 So though tecnically a interprenter could stand in for the compiler, no such interprenter is actually in use. 08:28:10 (An exception is the one in SBCL.) 08:28:14 Ok. Firstly what you mean by 'compilation' and what CL means by 'compilation' are different. 08:28:24 Did I get that right? 08:29:17 When you compile code in CL it asserts a bunch of invariants about that code. 08:29:52 This is the semantic difference between 'interpreted' and 'compiled-file code', and the implementation is allowed to treat each somewhat differently. 08:30:09 If that code is interpreted or compiled in order to run it is a different issue. 08:31:27 tessier__ [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 08:31:33 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_b.htm 08:31:50 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm 08:35:47 -!- tessier__ is now known as tessier 08:35:48 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:38:50 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Operation timed out] 08:40:50 Numlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 08:41:21 -!- Numlock is now known as PissedNumlock 08:43:54 Ok, so the interpenters behaviour is also defined by the ANSI standard. It is however not required by the standard.. 08:45:09 jthing: do you mean "interpreter"? 08:45:35 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:46:00 Meaning SBCL's interprenter actually violates the behaviour of a inerprenter? 08:46:17 serichsen: ANCI CL spec 3.2.2.3 08:46:21 jthing: it is spelled "interpreter" 08:47:09 sorry 08:47:35 jthing: I think you're confused, again. 08:47:58 jthing: CL has a concept of 'compiled code' and 'uncompiled code'. 08:48:09 jthing: These have slightly different semantics. 08:48:28 jthing: You may run compiled code with an interpreter if you like -- it is irrelevant. 08:48:53 -!- paw` [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:48:54 jthing: You may run uncompiled code though a compiler first -- it is also irrelevant. 08:49:02 jthing: Do you understand? 08:49:05 I don't feel confused.. The difference is in the semantic rules, yes? 08:49:32 Ok. So which of these do you think sbcl violates with 'uncompiled code'? 08:50:03 ahh 08:50:36 Well it seems to me the interprenter is in fact a 'compiler' in CL terms. 08:51:03 g'day 08:51:03 interpreter 08:51:05 jao [n=jao@76.Red-88-18-100.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:13 hello schmx 08:51:42 (can't seem to loose that #\n) 08:52:06 jthing: define an Emacs abbrev to fix it. 08:52:07 I think that you rather want to lose it :) 08:52:36 Interpreting code in CL requires a degree of translation. 08:53:02 e.g., you need to do macro expansion to translate your code into the base CL language. 08:53:18 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 08:53:33 gko [n=Keca@59-120-154-133.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:02 right 08:55:19 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:55:43 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-67.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 09:01:15 -!- jan247_ [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [] 09:02:18 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 09:04:41 beach: btw, why not simply combine both document recovery techniques (basically what you talk about with icons etc.) with OCR (recognising base set of shapes and assigning semantic data, in this case code-points or sets of code-points for ligatures etc.) with translation workbench mechanisms (similar to what you said about comparing icons etc. except those work on text) and keep mappings between visual and textual data? 09:06:06 p_l: I think that's a good idea. 09:06:43 p_l: But if I call it OCR, then people get all kinds of strange associations in their heads that don't correspond to the scenario I am thinking of. 09:07:27 beach: some OCR systems already include parts of what you wanted, like recognising of document elements as "blocks" and perform OCR inside those blocks 09:07:52 p_l: I can imagine that. 09:09:09 beach: translation workbench tools offer automatic correction and translation based on previous work (so for example you can use them to enforce consistent wording of various data, important in technical works) 09:10:34 -!- gko [n=Keca@59-120-154-133.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:10:40 p_l: I don't see how translation workbench tools would require image processing, though. 09:11:11 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:11:38 beach: they could work on "textual" side and help correcting results of OCR, therefore helping you choose better sets of glyphs to replace worse data 09:12:34 I see. 09:13:08 you could say that the tools used in translation workbench could be reused as "AI" that works on the document to correct mistakes 09:14:22 p_l: Well, what I had in mind would be a customizable CLIM/McCLIM application that would allow the user to add different modules, so it would just have to be documented how to add such functionality. 09:24:08 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:24:41 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has quit ["leaving"] 09:26:06 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has joined #lisp 09:26:12 kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has joined #lisp 09:27:40 Remind me how well McCLIM displays images these days, what image types are supported, and what method we are using. 09:28:02 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 09:29:39 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:29:43 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:31:06 it can display indexed color and RGB images, in both cases backed by an X11 pixmap, via make-pattern and make-rgb-image-design, and if you load the right extensions, it can load XPM, GIF, and JPG files 09:31:34 or if you're like me, you decide those aren't quite right, and draw RGB images using CLX calls instead. 09:32:36 hefner: can you supply it an already-created X11 Pixmap object, like from imlib2? 09:32:54 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 09:32:57 hefner: Thanks. For things like displaying PNM images, it would seem more appropriate to use a client-side X11 image object. 09:32:59 no? 09:34:45 p_l: the complication is that we're using CLX, not the C xlib. You might be able to share the object anyway, but I don't know the specifics of how to do it. 09:35:50 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [] 09:36:10 hefner: what about supplying memory area containing pixmap data to CLX? (I'm not X11 specialist, so I don't know if it has any specific usable format) 09:36:30 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483AC2D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:31 If you have the XID, then you should be able to create a CLX object to talk to it -- might be difficult to work out the properties of the pixmap that you should know in order to work with it, though. 09:36:42 p_l: sure, that would work. 09:38:12 hefner: in theory it should be possible to pass memory directly to server through X-ShM or whatever it was called... 09:38:40 plenty of things are possible in theory. it isn't very interesting. 09:39:36 *hefner* is presently trying to figure out suitable icons to indicate save and restore 09:40:09 piggy-bank and putty knife! 09:40:38 Nice! Much better than floppy disks. 09:41:08 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-15-28.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:42:28 hail 09:43:23 this might be a bug: SBCL's class-prototype on (find-class 'string) or (find-class 'list) returns the integer 42 09:43:53 .... ROTFL 09:44:44 russell_ [n=russell_@bonneville.tdb.com] has joined #lisp 09:45:30 is there common lisp support for creating symbolic links on a unix fs? 09:46:13 Odin- [n=sbkhh@130.208.131.159] has joined #lisp 09:46:49 in standard, I don't think so. Osicat might have necessary calls, or your implementation might have one 09:46:53 None standard -- see a posix package, perhaps. 09:47:12 hefner: How does this sound: I define a subclass of displayed-output-record called (say) image-output-record. It contains an X11 image object and uses get-image and put-image to the underlying X11 window object when asked to redraw. 09:47:14 to some extent, portable common lisp can't even open a file or list a directory. 09:48:55 not that it doesn't try, just that it's inevitably broken and a portability minefield even if you figure it out 09:49:27 Using namestrings is pretty safe. 09:49:33 sure, but broken. 09:49:50 Hmm, looks like I already wrote something like that, back in 2001. 09:50:00 beach: I have one of those too, if you're interested 09:50:37 hefner: I might be. I am first checking what I wrote, and which is in Backends/CLX/clim-extensions.lisp 09:51:42 *pinterface* hugs the pathname system. Poor little guy doesn't get much love. 09:52:01 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-79-16.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:52:01 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@130.208.131.159] has quit [] 09:52:10 Namestrings aren't broken. 09:52:17 They're just not very portable. 09:52:20 they're not very useful, either. 09:52:26 They are extremely useful. 09:52:44 They allow you to use whatever the local system uses to name its files. 09:52:51 no, they don't. 09:53:15 they give that impression, but it doesn't actually work. 09:53:46 In which regard do they not work? 09:53:51 hefner, everybody hates on the pathname system but can you give an example where it fails? 09:55:09 http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/sec_19-1-1.html 09:57:04 -!- kami-`` [n=user@193.218.18.18] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:57:15 kami-`` [n=user@193.218.18.18] has joined #lisp 09:58:55 the spec doesn't guarantee that namestring syntax is the same as that of the operating system, so they can't be relied upon when talking to other programs, hence things like SBCL having extra native-namestring functions 10:00:32 hefner: can you paste the code that uses CLX image objects? 10:01:05 hi. i would like to use an integer as the seed for the random number generator so that i can get repeatable sequences based on using the same seed. but make-random-state only seems to make states out of other states. 10:01:22 one recent example of how I got screwed by namestrings was attempting to refer to a file named "*". On CCL, (make-pathname :name "*") creates a wild pathname, on SBCL it does what I expect. 10:01:46 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit ["leaving"] 10:02:17 That'd be a bug in CCL, I think. 10:02:42 er, that doesn't have anything to do with namestrings. oops. :) 10:03:36 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:03:55 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 10:04:10 ilitirit: you can start with cl:directory, which is completely useless, move on to the nonportable hoops you usually have to jump through to stop your CL from blowing up on files that don't conform to its ideas about character encodings, or the fairly basic manipulations that can't be done portably (see cl-fad) 10:05:23 *hefner* will have to do some experiments with pathological namestrings and see if he can break the implementations 10:05:45 yes, cl:directory is rather annoyingly vague and different between implementations 10:06:09 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 10:06:23 anyway, I'm pretty sure I got screwed by namestrings once, because I'm in the habit of using sb-ext:native-namestring, but I don't recall the incident that formed this habit. 10:07:29 even if some of these issues boil down to bugs in the implementations, it isn't much of an argument, because they're bugs you have to work around, and that shouldn't exist in the first place. 10:08:04 on ccl, indeed (pathname-name (make-pathname :name "*")) is :wild 10:09:30 i agree that the specification is too vague, and i suppose it is to be expected that there are some things that one cannot do with it on some implementations 10:10:02 hefner pasted "client-rgb-image-record" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83993 10:10:43 beach: note that this entirely punts on the issue of converting to the correct format of the display 10:11:09 fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 10:12:05 clisp can do it with (linux:symlink "destname" "linkname") 10:12:29 hefner, but i thought you were claiming that they forbade an implementation to allow you to use the local system's naming conventions for files? 10:12:55 ilitirit: I'm claiming they aren't guaranteed to be the same, which makes them not particularly useful 10:14:52 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:11 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-70de60ee649b770e] has joined #lisp 10:17:22 morning 10:18:10 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:19:17 of course, if namestrings were real file names, you couldn't put wildcards in them. 10:22:19 russell_: on sbcl you have sb-posix:link and sb-posix:symlink 10:26:25 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 10:27:30 levy_ [n=levy@apn-94-44-5-148.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:29:23 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.134.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:29:35 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.134.86] has joined #lisp 10:31:58 hefner: thanks! 10:32:53 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:39:33 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has quit [] 10:40:04 also, for reasons I've never investigated, it will display garbage if your image is too big (where "too big" might be about 1000x1000, I'm not really sure). 10:41:03 hefner: I'll keep that in mind. Thanks! 10:41:26 Maybe this is a bug in CLX, maybe not. On the other hand, in an app a while back that created a number of 256x256 pixmaps (created using make-pattern), the images would turn into garbage randomly after the program ran for a while. 10:41:49 So really, you're screwed either way. :) 10:42:07 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 10:42:38 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 10:44:02 not screwed! Highly-motivated to find and fix the bug 10:46:40 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 10:46:58 *attila_lendvai* likes that spirit much more... :) 10:47:23 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-15-28.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:53:55 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 10:56:35 hefner: do you also have a draw-pixels* function to use on a sheet and which creates an output record on a recording stream? 10:57:35 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 10:57:48 hefner: (medium-draw-pixels* seems to work) 11:00:07 ivan-kanis [n=user@if02t2-89-83-137-164.d4.club-internet.fr] has joined #lisp 11:00:55 hmm, trying to draw a picture that is 3k by 3k pixels seems to make it just grind to a halt without any error signaled. 11:03:01 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:04:28 -!- asksol [n=ask@47.247.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:07:43 how can I do (position 'sym (aref array 0)) where array is an array of rank 2? I want to find the position of an element within a subarray 11:08:47 CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.115.44] has joined #lisp 11:09:40 beach: the code that uses that just creates the output record instance and uses add-output-record then replay 11:10:06 hefner: OK. 11:11:29 Perhaps it won't grind to a halt if I replay only the exposed region. 11:13:50 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 11:17:27 jewel_: maybe row-major-aref might help 11:17:44 ok, not really 11:18:26 jewel_: the thing to note is that 2d array is not an array of arrays 11:19:00 moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 11:22:23 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 11:23:53 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:25:40 cracki [n=cracki@43-231.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:26:41 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:32:51 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:33:59 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:33:59 -!- FufieToo is now known as Fufie 11:35:05 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 11:39:21 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-44-66.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 11:39:35 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 11:44:07 Kickaha [n=user@bl5-16-107.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:44:08 jewel_: you can displace a one-dimensional array (which is a sequence) onto the original array 11:44:17 then you can use POSITION on that 11:44:20 clhs make-array 11:44:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm 11:44:36 (see :displaced-to) 11:46:08 X-Scale2 [i=email@89.180.227.106] has joined #lisp 11:50:14 antifuchs pasted "jewel: Like this" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83997 11:50:30 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1F0BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:55 -!- Kickaha [n=user@bl5-16-107.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:51:30 Kickaha [n=user@bl5-16-107.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:52:16 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:54:44 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:54:57 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-69-5.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:58:25 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 11:59:44 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:02:06 -!- bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:02:48 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1CB02.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:03:26 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:32 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.144.5] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:06:21 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:13 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:09:53 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:10:01 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 12:10:47 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-127.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:12:30 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:12:46 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:13:33 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-127.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:17:01 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:17:17 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:17:42 jewel_: You must define "subarray" and have an iterator to walk all the cells of such a subarray. Then you can trivially find the position of a given element. 12:19:56 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 12:20:24 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest63749 12:20:31 right 12:20:48 thanks guys 12:20:49 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-127.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:20:55 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-127.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:26:18 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 12:26:31 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-70de60ee649b770e] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:29:18 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:30:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:32:49 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-128-100.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:33:08 hello 12:33:14 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 12:33:43 pjb pasted "jewel -> subarray iterator" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83999 12:34:46 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 12:35:04 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 12:35:29 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-127.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:35:34 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-127.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:36:24 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@70.88.151.157] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:37:24 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:37:39 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 12:43:40 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-127.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:43:45 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-127.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:45:45 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-127.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 12:47:47 manuel_ [n=manuel@rzdu-ub-141-212.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 12:47:48 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-127.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:48:04 -!- cracki [n=cracki@43-231.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 12:48:34 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-127.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 12:53:39 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-40-86.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [".."] 12:53:54 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-40-86.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 12:54:03 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.222.130] has joined #lisp 12:55:37 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-128-100.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 12:57:35 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.183.111] has joined #lisp 13:01:15 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:08:43 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.222.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:08:44 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:13 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:09:53 -!- ivan-kanis [n=user@if02t2-89-83-137-164.d4.club-internet.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:10:55 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-107.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:12:27 Is there a way to create a deep copy of an object consisting only in {hashtable, list, string, symbol} ? 13:13:02 Yes, but you have to write the function yourself. 13:13:06 (write/read works, but it's not what i'm looking for, of course) 13:13:18 nyef: ok 13:13:22 nyef: thanks 13:14:58 kuwabara1: The reason for that is that the concept of a "deep copy" is not well defined. 13:15:59 beach: well, the concept of equality can also have several meanings, but there are solutions in CL for that. 13:16:22 kuwabara1: Yes, but you also have to write those yourself in general. 13:16:24 beach: but I understant very well your point 13:17:29 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:18:02 if CLOS were better integrated, maybe we'd have double-dispatched EQUAL/SXHASH/... instead of multiple functions. 13:20:24 kuwabara: It's relatively easy to implement a generic walker using a generic function. 13:20:44 It's like the visitor pattern, only without a visitor! 13:20:51 kuwabara: You could then recursively descent your structure and reassemble a copy on the return. 13:20:53 pkhuong`: That wouldn't help in the general case though, because two objects can be equal in some context (for instance two people with the same phone number) and different in a different context (they may not have the same social security number). 13:21:14 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-128-100.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:21:24 if context-oriented programming were integrated, maybe we'd have equal be a contextual function 13:22:26 beach: I didn't mean to dispatch on the compared objects, but on an equality-type object and the comparees. 13:22:26 *attila_lendvai* is badly missing an equal/copy library that defines a protocol based on layered methods... it's somewhere on the TODO... 13:22:58 pkhuong`: That would require triple dispatch, wouldn't it? 13:23:18 not if the second comparee is never dispatched on. 13:23:57 pkhuong`: wouldn't it typically be dispatched on, though? 13:24:57 But why would it need to be? If you compare a string to a number, the string only cares if the number is stringp or not. 13:24:58 The standard could have restricted the arguments it can be dispatched on to simplify implementation. 13:25:38 nyef: Yes, but there surely must be a method on string and string. 13:25:49 ... Why? 13:26:14 leo2007 pasted "fortran" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84001 13:26:20 nyef: Otherwise the "string and t" method would have to test the type explicitly. 13:26:31 (which can be done of course) 13:26:48 Oh, noes! (and (stringp arg2) ...) 13:28:10 Anyone here knows how to write an array to a file in fortran with elements separated by , 13:30:01 #fortran might know! 13:30:20 lichtblau: yes, i have asked there too. 13:30:23 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@rzdu-ub-141-212.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [] 13:31:01 Actually I need space separated format 13:31:15 *lichtblau* was only amused to see that _is_ a #fortran, and that they have a slogan that would also befit #lisp 13:31:31 #FORTRAN, surely? ;) 13:31:32 I am trying to write the output to a file ready to be read by lisp 13:33:57 rsynnott: that probably depends on whether a person is using Fortran 90 or FORTRAN 77. Kind of like all the LISP 1.5 users probably still type /join #LISP. 13:34:36 lichtblau: the difference being that there are no LISP 1.5 users left, but most fortran users are still basically using F77 if not earlier 13:34:57 lies 13:35:28 Oh, I don't think so. F90 was pretty popular ten years ago. 13:35:35 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.115.44] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:35:45 the majority of my PhD thesis used F90 13:36:56 Xof: but you're hip. 13:36:57 CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.115.44] has joined #lisp 13:37:12 maybe I was 8 years ago 13:37:19 there's very few people on #fortran, unfortunately 13:37:25 ... sheesh, 8 years? no, wait, 6 years 13:37:37 leo2007: that does not give you the right to ask here 13:37:44 leo2007: why not go where the most people are? a ruby channel probably has more than #lisp. 13:38:32 Xof and Xach: except that I discusssed this with a few people here about 10 days ago 13:38:33 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:39:04 leo2007: you could try comp.lang.fortran or something 13:39:06 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:39:20 or #algol, to complete the old language trifecta :) 13:40:17 rsynnott: algol60 or algol68? 13:40:51 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-128-100.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:40:56 ... there's also #cobol 13:40:58 lacedaemon [n=algidus@89-97-128-100.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:41:11 with zero users XD 13:41:20 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 13:43:06 is there an easy way to reuse DEFTYPE'd array declarations with MAKE-ARRAY? 13:43:27 p_l: cobol programmers are too busy to hang out on irc 13:43:52 mathrick: (shadow 'deftype) (defmacro deftype ...) and generate a constructor along. 13:44:09 okay, not what I hoped for I guess 13:44:31 mathrick: there's no standard accessors to types. 13:45:02 yeah, it's rather inconvenient if you do a lot of arrays 13:45:32 mathrick: then you probablyhave a higher level abstraction and written constructors such as make-matrix or make-bitmap, etc. 13:46:38 matimago: of course, but that's precisely when I need to look at my DEFTYPE's and translate them to the dissimilar form MAKE-ARRAY uses 13:46:57 You were told to keep your program in source files, didn't you? 13:47:26 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-184-190.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:47:51 serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-153-95.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:51:31 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 13:53:03 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:55:32 anton` [n=user@77.70.2.99] has joined #lisp 13:56:11 rsynnott: I just did. Thanks. 13:58:14 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-74-228.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:58:56 hmm, comp.lang.cobol is hilarious 14:01:29 ugh, I think there's a problem. I'm getting to the point when I want to write something in lisp I can do it without too much difficulty (overall, still some challenges) with references..but it feels....comfortable, I think I'm scared now, heh. 14:02:43 postamar [n=postamar@69-196-137-169.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:06 TDT`: go find some lisp code that takes you out of your comfort zone, then :) 14:03:58 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 14:05:14 *dlowe* suggests sbcl's compiler 14:05:27 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:34 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.115.44] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:06:10 dlowe: hah, I'm still not 100% comfortable, just it feels strangely nice now to code in lisp, where say a month or two ago it felt like more a pain, and a year ago almost a nightmare. 14:06:17 Or, if you really want to get scared, there's CMUCL, or perhaps MCL. 14:06:28 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-28-50.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:09:06 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:55 -!- postamar [n=postamar@69-196-137-169.dsl.teksavvy.com] has left #lisp 14:10:58 hah, yeah..well, I'm not quite super comfortable yet...macros still confuse me to a large degree, I need work on that, as well as considerable work on what's decent code and all. 14:12:15 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 14:12:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:12:52 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-194.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:10 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:13:14 deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has joined #lisp 14:15:34 -!- Kirklander [n=Kirkland@216.93.247.56] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:16:50 -!- jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:17:06 Quick question I hope: Using a tree structure, upon deleting a node with children, will lisp clean the children for me automatically as they are no longer referenced, or would it be better to delete them by hand? 14:17:35 It will clean up the children that can no-longer be reached if and when it feels like it. 14:17:46 You have no mechanism by which to delete them by hand. 14:17:46 don't think you really have the option of deleting them by hand 14:17:51 not in a standard way, anyway 14:17:57 deylen: What do you mean by "delete them by hand"? 14:18:03 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75.149.33.105] has joined #lisp 14:18:08 Zhivago: Hmm, can I not (setf node nil)? 14:18:20 Generally speaking, don't worry about it -- lisp gc technology is quite good. 14:18:41 deylen: That won't delete anything -- it will just remove a reference to the object that node used to refer to. 14:18:44 deylen: it should figure it out by itself 14:18:53 Ok thanks, i'll leave it to lisp then :) 14:19:10 Zhivago: Ah I see, so basically the same as destroying its parent then 14:19:12 thanks all 14:19:15 -!- deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has quit [] 14:19:16 deylen: Just make sure that you stop referring to stuff that you want to go away. 14:19:18 -!- Guest63749 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 14:19:30 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 14:19:32 if you happened to be using a lisp with plain reference counting GC you might want to break circular references, but I don't think such a lisp exists 14:21:36 Greetings. 14:22:08 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:22:28 rsynnott: how would you break those cycles, though? 14:22:36 o/ from stumpwm. 14:23:11 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:47 in language implementations (notably PHP; long-running PHP applications do exist) which have this problem I think it usually has to be done manuaally 14:27:04 jlf` [n=user@adsl-99-165-89-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:57 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 14:29:00 tmh: hi 14:30:45 -!- TDT` [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:31:22 -!- TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has quit [Success] 14:31:27 rsynnott: Python does it with mark/sweep running periodically to detect cycles and removing them 14:31:42 TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has joined #lisp 14:32:01 p_l: which would be an instance of not "plain reference counting" 14:32:51 reference counting has several problems -- it is slow, it wastes a lot of space, it leads to unpredictable delays, and it doesn't handle cycles. 14:33:27 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:34 *p_l* tries to imagine performance characteristics of unix filesystem using something other than reference counting 14:33:35 Zhivago: delays can be controller, and throughput improved. 14:34:02 and is there a magic fix for the concurrency issues? 14:34:04 cant you lose memory if the counter is kept with the object ? 14:34:21 p_l: That's why you can't have cycles of directories. 14:34:24 jsnell: yes. It's actually in that context that refcount seems most interesting. 14:34:27 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:34:27 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:34:44 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 14:35:48 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:36:14 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:36:15 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 14:36:24 -!- ASau [n=user@host71-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 14:37:06 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-187-178.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:37:17 hmmm... I can't do hardlinks for directories, so I can't really check. 14:37:21 Symlinks blow up fine 14:37:46 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:38:30 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-187-178.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 14:39:44 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:39:56 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:39:57 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 14:40:21 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest82793 14:42:09 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:44:37 metawilm_ [n=willem@e179147159.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:47:40 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-10946.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 14:47:40 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:50:48 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:51:00 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 14:52:09 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 14:52:55 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:57:45 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:59:10 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 14:59:15 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:09 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:00:38 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:02:05 milanj [n=milan@93.87.192.84] has joined #lisp 15:02:09 -!- metawilm [n=willem@e179146190.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:02:50 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:02:53 TauPan [n=taupan@dudelab.org] has joined #lisp 15:05:05 Hi. I still have problems connecting to the swank server running on sbcl 1.0.27 and 1.0.29 on a box running debian, but for some strange reason not on the other box. When I telnet to the tcp port the swank server runs on, I get no connection. 15:05:53 konr [n=konrad@189.96.105.182] has joined #lisp 15:07:00 HG` [n=wells@85.8.91.197] has joined #lisp 15:07:02 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 15:07:20 TauPan: firewall, perhaps? 15:07:37 http://paste.lisp.org/display/81698 15:07:48 no firewall on 127.0.0.1 15:08:04 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:38 I found it suspicious that sbcl deletes unreachable code containing "(SWANK-BACKEND:RECEIVE-IF #)" but someone assured me that this was no problem. 15:09:12 does the error message say that all the quoted code has been deleted? 15:09:17 s/say/mean/ 15:09:33 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:11:04 because then there would be no call to 'receive' left in the code, which would explain that swank doesn't accept connections. 15:13:07 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 15:13:08 I'm not sure I understand your problem. How would one replicate what you're doing? 15:13:12 specbot: handler-case 15:13:28 clhs handler-case 15:13:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_hand_1.htm 15:14:59 pkhuong`: M-x slime just hangs at "Connecting to Swank on port ...." for me. 15:15:43 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75.149.33.105] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:16:03 Hm, I just discovered that I use a little more recent emacs version on the host where it works. So I'll try updating emacs. 15:18:00 -!- Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:19:35 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:22:01 you should have pasted *inferior-lisp* buffer 15:22:23 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:22:42 Adlai` [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:22:59 that's in the first annotation 15:23:14 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:23:25 i see 15:23:58 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 15:25:48 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-4fe070d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:25:59 TauPan: have you slime file in /home/fdf/tmp/ after it's started? 15:26:09 yup 15:27:15 I see it only when I edebug the elisp function that connects to swank... the function reads the port from the file, then deletes it and tries to connect, then hangs. 15:27:28 as telnet hangs as well 15:27:46 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-74-228.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:29:04 hm, the emacs version wasn't relevant 15:29:41 ok, try to start server manually: sbcl --load swank-loader.lisp --eval "(swank-loader:init)" --eval "(swank:create-server)" 15:29:48 and then M-x slime-connect 15:31:42 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-128-100.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 15:32:40 now emacs hangs at "Connecting to Swank on port 4005.." 15:33:13 and sbcl repl is responsive... swank server runs in a thread, I guess? 15:33:39 yeah, I see the thread with pstree 15:33:57 telnet 127.0.0.1 4005 hangs as well 15:34:03 "Trying 127.0.0.1..." 15:34:56 now, that's strange 15:35:33 (I just checked "iptables -L" to make sure I *really* have no firewall on this box) 15:35:37 is your loopback network interface up? 15:35:53 *facepalm* 15:35:59 Xof: no it isn't *blush* 15:36:17 I wonder how that happened. 15:36:21 What would take down the loopback? 15:36:35 ravster [n=user@69.172.114.222] has joined #lisp 15:36:39 Hello all. 15:36:47 probably some configuration error in my /etc/network/interfaces 15:37:02 Is it possible to add or remove slots in a class during run-time? 15:37:08 Xof: kudos for thinking out of the box :-} 15:37:16 ravster: Yes. 15:37:28 sweet. 15:37:33 :) 15:38:36 ok, now I have to check why lo was down... which is completely unrelated to lisp/swank/emacs... thanks! 15:39:06 ah... I know why... 15:40:36 I have a script to switch between work (eth0) and home (wlan0) networks, which first takes down *all* interfaces and then just takes *one* interface up. but 'ifup -a' really is the right thing to do here, since I have appropriate mapping schemes for work and home. 15:40:36 *rsynnott* has never heard of the loopback being down on any vaguely modern OS 15:40:54 rsynnott: administration error on my part. 15:41:18 ah 15:41:28 TauPan: Being clever is hard work. :-) 15:41:42 (standard explanation #1: It's the user's fault. ;] ) 15:42:10 yeah, trying to be too clever is never good 15:42:21 I run RHEL on my laptop and it has some daemon that takes care of switching between the ethernet and wireless for me. 15:42:37 It works pretty well most of the time. 15:42:44 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-4fe070d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:42:56 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:00 and fails miserably sometimes? 15:43:04 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 15:43:23 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:43:26 -!- Guest82793 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 15:43:57 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-162-201.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:44:08 stassats: No, on rare occasions it doesn't make the switch, so I simply have to click on the little network applet on the tool bar and choose an interface and/or wireless network. 15:44:23 tmh: I used to use 'whereami' for that, but it's terribly hackish, so I abandoned it in favor of ifscheme and two very tiny shellscripts. 15:45:47 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:47:04 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 15:47:33 mikezor [n=mikael@c-4fe070d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:47:46 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:10 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable239.238-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:49:29 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:58 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:50:21 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:50:42 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 15:52:58 konr1 [n=konrad@189.0.21.229] has joined #lisp 15:53:22 -!- aircastle is now known as aircastle_away 15:56:31 -!- aircastle_away [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:59:26 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 15:59:36 -!- mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-4fe070d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:00:05 -!- konr [n=konrad@189.96.105.182] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:00:25 -!- jlf` [n=user@adsl-99-165-89-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:03:08 -!- ravster [n=user@69.172.114.222] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:03:38 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:04:28 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:04:58 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-167-196.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:12 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-41.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:08:05 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@59.92.161.237] has joined #lisp 16:11:14 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:13:15 -!- Samy is now known as sbahra 16:13:47 when specifying an element-type for an array, which one to choose (unsigned-byte 16) or fixnum, if both applies? 16:14:31 heh, i'm browsing asdf system definitions source files with syntax highlighting from WUI using reflection (not static content) 16:16:15 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:16:25 WUI? 16:16:32 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has left #lisp 16:17:39 leo2007: fixnum is usually larger than 16-bits. What do you mean "both aply"? 16:17:46 *apply 16:18:10 leo2007: Choose the most specific (in hopes that the implementation will optimize). 16:18:50 Hello, is there a way to have images on push-buttons in clim? 16:18:50 leo2007: Er, let me take that back. It might depend on whether you optimize for space or for time. 16:18:54 -!- a-s` [n=user@92.81.46.25] has left #lisp 16:19:22 leo2007: Also, you probably want to avoid FIXNUM, unless you're working with a specific compiler (although, if it's 16 bits, it's unlikely you'll find a compiler that'll break it) 16:20:09 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:20:10 notsonerdysunny: I think we made that possible in McCLIM, but I don't use it myself so I can't remember how. 16:20:41 luis, WUI is a web framework (eh, that's the problem with lisp everybody has one) we are using in production 16:20:42 But hopefully those same compilers would use fixnum operations on anything declared (unsigned-byte 16) 16:20:55 based on iolib, pure lisp 16:21:00 beach: is that part of the spec or an extension to clim in McClim 16:21:14 notsonerdysunny: I don't think it's part of the spec. 16:21:33 we are planning to make a web site soonish where it is going to run live (on SBCL) with reflexive documentation and samples 16:21:35 oh ... 16:21:47 levy_: sounds good. 16:22:06 how windows-compatible is hunchentoot? I'm looking for the .dll files that are needed by it (don't have acces to a windows box myself, so can't try and search 16:23:02 madnificent: what DLLs does it need? ssl? 16:23:11 notsonerdysunny: the CLIM spec contains something called a "design" however, that can be used to render images (among other things), but then it is skimpy on the kinds of subclasses of design you can have (other than regions). 16:23:36 luis: I remember it needing ssl and some dependency of ssl. Yet I assumed there would be more, se we headed on with the rest of the application 16:24:03 ausente [n=user7994@187.10.17.28] has joined #lisp 16:24:04 madnificent: Edi uses Lispworks on windows, so surely it works fine there. 16:24:29 (though it probably uses Lispworks' SSL stuff instead of CL+SSL) 16:25:04 how can I call function with this lambda list (&key a b c) when I have the arguments in a list like this (:a a :b b :c c) ? 16:25:10 luis: andare you fairly certain that it only needs ssl + dependencies? 16:25:14 without using eval obviously 16:25:23 rstandy: apply 16:25:23 rstandy: APPLY 16:25:47 thanks beach 16:25:56 madnificent, luis: oh, thanks :-) 16:26:01 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:26:06 notsonerdysunny: Sure. If you want details, you might be better off asking hefner. 16:26:30 madnificent: you can compile it without SSL support too thereby removing the libssl dependency. 16:27:09 luis: I thought that, but couldn't immediately find out how, perhaps that would be the easiest route, as I can do it from here on 16:27:24 madnificent: the other dependencies don't seem to use FFI. 16:27:38 madnificent: from the docs: "You can compile Hunchentoot without SSL support - and thus without the need to have CL+SSL - if you add :HUNCHENTOOT-NO-SSL to *FEATURES* before you compile it." 16:27:49 luis: thanks! 16:29:42 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:30:25 luis beach and sellout: thanks for that info 16:30:55 leo2007: no problem. 16:31:31 basically it is an array with the largest value 16537 and it is read-only. 16:31:41 should I also make it a constant? 16:32:13 leo2007: with defconst? You can't. 16:32:25 leo2007: Relax with the optimization a bit. 16:33:00 leo2007: You'll likely just clutter your code with stuff that doesn't make a difference. 16:33:19 ok, I will keep defparameter 16:33:45 Wait until your code is working, then if someone complains that it's too slow, figure out what the bottleneck is, and just work on that one spot. 16:33:46 leo2007: defconstant only protects the value of the variable; it does not protect from side effects to the object that is the value. 16:34:06 sb-ext:defglobal, or defvar, load-time-value and potentially a symbol-macro (: 16:34:13 leo2007: I agree with the others. Wait with optimizations until you find that it is a problem not to have them. 16:35:52 It'd be cool if sbcl allocated "it-is-undefined-to-mutate" objects in read-only memory, at least optionally. 16:36:16 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:36:34 pkhuong`: thanks, seems defvar is more suitable 16:38:48 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:38:54 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-6d1df738631a734e] has joined #lisp 16:39:38 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 16:39:58 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:40:55 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:41:56 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:42:25 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:43:56 I want to move a 1111x13 array from fortran to lisp. And in FORTRAN it is initialised by specifying each column. 16:44:24 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC."] 16:44:26 In this case, is there a way to avoid using some kind of transpose function? 16:45:03 -!- HG` [n=wells@85.8.91.197] has quit [Client Quit] 16:45:21 Sure, set the values where they're supposed to go. 16:45:31 leo2007: (defun ref (a i j) (aref a j i)) 16:46:51 nha [n=prefect@92.105.64.137] has joined #lisp 16:47:08 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:47:57 pjb: and (defun (setf ref) ...) :) 16:48:09 of course. 16:48:24 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 16:48:44 Hmm, 30°C in Bordeaux, only 24 in Sài Gòn. 16:49:49 *beach* goes to watch half an hour of Euronews. 16:51:42 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 16:52:14 -!- koollman [n=samson_t@sd-10510.dedibox.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:52:19 koollman [n=samson_t@sd-10510.dedibox.fr] has joined #lisp 16:52:20 pjb: isn't it better to use a macro for this kind of transformation, to avoid an extra function call? 16:52:29 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:52:44 stepnem: no. 16:52:55 stepnem: no, because a macro doesn't allow you to write (mapcar (function ref) (list a1 a2) (list i1 i2) (list j1 j2)). 16:53:12 ah, I see, thank you 16:53:17 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 16:53:28 stepnem: If you're worried about performance, inline or use compiler macros. 16:53:41 stepnem: beside, with a inline declaration, it would get opencoded all the same. 16:54:01 -!- meingbg_ [n=user@static-195.84.249.117.addr.tdcsong.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:54:05 meingbg_ [n=user@static-195.84.249.117.addr.tdcsong.se] has joined #lisp 16:54:37 yeah, thanks 16:56:17 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:57:24 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:57:57 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-70-109-137-208.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:45 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 16:59:48 hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.23.128] has joined #lisp 16:59:54 -!- mkfort [n=mkfort@68-189-164-209.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:00:16 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:01:14 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 17:02:21 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 17:02:44 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 17:03:40 -!- notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@59.92.161.237] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:08:10 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:09:50 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 17:13:16 konr [n=konrad@189.98.77.26] has joined #lisp 17:13:21 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 17:17:30 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:20 Ahrg, why is darcs over ssh so slow these days? 17:19:04 darcs is always slow 17:19:11 Nah. 17:19:12 you want speed use git 17:19:49 however it is a nightmare to use (200 options) 17:20:07 jthing: if you want ease of use use darcs. :-P 17:20:20 jthing: we do the version control discussion on Mondays. 17:20:27 -!- konr1 [n=konrad@189.0.21.229] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:38 what?! not everybody is using CVS? 17:22:05 <[df]> heh, we just (finally) migrated from cvs to git at work 17:22:17 unless you have something really big like all of linux.. darcs is more friendly and the speed should be adequate 17:24:09 except for push/pull over ssh, which is annoyingly slow. 17:25:39 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:26:06 Does anyone know how to make clisp realise that libsigsegv is around ? 17:26:14 (when ./configuring) 17:26:24 schmx: it can be a PITA 17:26:43 luis: No, sorry. You are to say "yes, you do... " :P 17:26:52 hold on. 17:27:06 <_3b> doesn't it tell you what to do when it complains it can't find it? (or was that some other lib it wanted) 17:27:15 I'm trying --with-libsigsegv-prefix=... 17:27:22 _3b: Yes. that it does. and it is not working. 17:27:32 <_3b> ah, dunno then :( 17:27:39 luis pasted "Compiling CLISP on Ubuntu" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84009 17:27:48 *schmx* looks 17:28:24 and that finds libsigsegv? :) 17:28:41 schmx: installing libsigsegv-dev worked for me. 17:28:53 schmx: I think I wasn't able to get --with-libsigsegv-prefix working either. 17:28:56 rite. I ain't got no such thing available. 17:29:02 I just have the libs and header. 17:29:14 luis: another ubuntu user :) 17:29:22 I guess maybe I'll just run stumpwm in sbcl. 17:29:32 I'm scared it'll eat up more memory. 17:29:37 -!- konr [n=konrad@189.98.77.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:29:51 schmx: install them in /usr, maybe that'll help. Don't forget to run ldconfig. 17:29:59 konr [n=konrad@189.98.77.26] has joined #lisp 17:30:16 nope 17:36:41 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:50 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-91039f1a7ec8a74b] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:37:00 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-242f3ff623c87705] has joined #lisp 17:37:32 is there anything for lisp available that does microprocesses/microthreads? 17:38:25 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["microbye"] 17:38:36 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:38:43 luis: solved it. rm src/config.cache && ./configure --with-libsigsegv-prefix= .... 17:38:44 what's that? 17:38:46 :) 17:39:11 erlang on lisp? 17:39:24 schmx: I believe that uses full-fledged native threads. 17:39:35 erlang does? 17:39:40 erlang-on-lisp 17:39:46 cmucl has green threads 17:39:48 oh! I had no idea there really was such a thing :) 17:40:15 I believe what erlang does is spawn a native thread for each core/processor, and manage a bunch of processes within that. 17:40:43 stassats`: aha. thanks. 17:40:59 hehe: The value # is not of type FUNCTION. 17:41:51 there's no FLET*, right? 17:42:03 labels ? 17:42:03 mathrick: LABELS might be what you want. 17:42:25 luis: can I refer in a later LABELS definition to an earlier one? 17:42:32 and vice versa 17:42:37 a critical difference from let/let* 17:42:50 ohh 17:42:56 right, I misread the docs 17:42:57 thanks 17:43:00 *spec 17:46:41 argh. clisp build failed anyway. 17:46:43 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:04 schmx: you can build without libsigsegv. 17:48:46 pkhuong`: No I got passed that. It is running make that results in gcc: /Feintparam: No such file or directory 17:52:09 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as TR2N 17:53:30 leo2007 pasted "destructuring-bind" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84010 17:53:49 well I'll just read the installation instructions 17:53:50 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:54:10 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.7.237] has joined #lisp 17:54:40 When one finds the need to use let and m-v-bind at the same time, is this a sign to use destructuring-bind? For example, do you find the code snippet in paste 84010 odd? 17:55:01 *_3b* would use let + m-v-b 17:55:10 i find it odd, yes 17:55:19 leo2007: Yeah, odd. 17:55:25 odd, I tell you. 17:55:26 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:55:27 Or *maybe* m-v-call. 17:55:38 leo2007: Although, you might be interested in gwking's BIND macro 17:56:47 leo2007: http://common-lisp.net/project/metabang-bind/ 17:58:24 metabang-bind scares the living daylights out of me. 17:59:46 francisco [n=fhc@bl4-88-179.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:00:05 _3b: which one would you put at the outer ()? 18:00:33 <_3b> leo2007: either way if they are independent 18:00:58 i'd throw a dice 18:03:16 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:05:00 Hi. I have a problem. I am trying to install :linedit through asdf-install. It tries to install :uffi, and that fails, since UFFI is a nickname for CFFI-COMPAT-UFFI. That way, I cannot install neither linedit nor clsql. Is there a workaround? 18:05:30 Thank you all. I have followed _3b's approach. 18:05:47 forget about linedit? 18:06:00 other options: 18:06:06 forget about the cffi-compat-uffi.asd symlink 18:06:10 forget about asdf-install 18:06:27 *tmh* never uses asdf-install. *never* 18:06:35 *schmx* goes and downloads himself a sbcl 18:06:42 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:06:56 introspection in SBCL is great, i can show the original definitions of all methods belonging to generic function with syntax highlighting on a web page 18:07:09 i don't know if swank could make this portable 18:07:49 lichtblau: forgetting about asdf-install? 18:07:50 what a pity that i can't edit them... ;-) 18:08:16 write js-emacs 18:08:35 I don't think I could live without asdf-install, heh. 18:08:38 I use it so much 18:08:49 francisco: use asdf-install if and when it works for you. (Removal of the symlink might be an easy workaround). 18:08:58 are the download links at sbcl.org broken? 18:09:02 francisco: But should asdf-install not work out for you in this case, keep in mind that it's only a glorified tarball downloader. It's nice, but not essential. 18:09:48 hmm. how strange. they work off of the one computer, but not off of the other one. 18:10:28 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 18:10:30 lichtblau: that it is only a tarball downloader is evident. Should I just drop the compat or is there a way to say UFFI is CFFI at .sbclrc time? 18:10:34 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Client Quit] 18:12:10 luis: I'm not certain, but it seems like the fashion lately is for the SSH server to sleep for a couple seconds before you can log in, just to piss you off. 18:12:30 francisco: I don't know for certain. Just try it perhaps. 18:14:04 lichtblau: I'll try it. Thanks a million. 18:15:45 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:16:18 hefner: really? 18:16:38 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-107.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:16:55 ok I give up. I click the sbcl netbsd x86 binary. and I get sent in circles. Is it impossible to download this thing? 18:17:28 schmx: try going through the sourceforge project page 18:17:46 22 18:18:10 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:18:18 luis: That is what I'm doing. I click the binary. it gives me a lil download will start soon or click here page. I click there and I get the projects file list again. 18:18:35 sourceforge's interface is becoming more awful each time 18:18:42 luis: dunno, I'm guessing. I starting complaining a couple years ago when every cvs diff I did against a repository on c-l.net seemed to take an extra second or two before it did anything, a situation I don't think has changed. 18:18:47 hurr web2.0 :specialed: 18:19:05 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:19:18 really? sf's interface is a lot better now than it was a few years ago! 18:19:51 it took half a minute for it to list all sbcl releases 18:20:12 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:03 huh, it changed again, it used to be orange, now it's blue. :) 18:21:44 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.7.237] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:21:49 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 18:22:01 pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:24:41 *rsynnott* hasn't seen the blue one yet 18:25:06 soon it will be changed, i'm sure 18:25:06 It's completely unusable regardless of colour. It won't let me download anything. 18:25:34 Sourceforge is one of these things, like PayPal or IBM, that knows it's crap, but has a decade or so before the trickling away of its chosen monopoly becomes a serious concern 18:25:59 ehhh, I think sf already went through that 18:26:08 they didn't change a damn thing about the site for a decade... 18:26:15 now, they're actually developing it again 18:26:25 they added app hosting, support for most VCSen 18:26:29 by making it worse, just like PayPal and IBM ;) 18:26:43 no way 18:26:49 it's much better now than it was when it was abandoned 18:26:52 (PayPal recently revamped their interface for merchants; they somehow managed to make it even worse) 18:26:53 rsynnott: Is there alternative to PayPal? 18:26:59 tmh: google checkout 18:27:05 tmh: Google Checkout and Amazon Thingy 18:27:29 Hmm, Google is starting to creep me out, a little. 18:27:32 Just out of interest, does anyone here have a story about going to or from one of the commercial lisps, who/what/where/when/why of it? Just interested in any tales of implementation switches. 18:27:35 and I think IBM is threatening to release a new version of notes again 18:28:05 Modius: I went between two open source ones, out of necessity 18:28:07 if notes actually worked with internet email...it might be pretty cool. 18:28:12 Man, can you imagine working on the Notes team? That's gotta be soul-crushing. 18:28:44 (OpenMCL to sbcl, though I had previously been using sbcl for deployment anyway 18:29:00 sellout: I know people on the Notes team 18:29:11 (a lot of the Lotus stuff is done in Dublin) 18:29:11 my favorite thing about notes is that when you change things in its calendar, it sends emails with an ics attachment containing the information 18:29:13 rsynnott: Are their souls crushed? 18:29:20 getting there 18:29:29 -!- Kickaha [n=user@bl5-16-107.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:29:39 So then if you use any program that can understand ics files (e.g. apple's iCal or evolution...) 18:29:51 you can add it to your local calendar, and send back an ics file with an "i accepted" response 18:30:05 (the current version of lotus notes is based on eclipse. _Eclipse_) 18:30:09 however, lotus notes can't read ics files in incoming emails. It totally ignores them 18:30:35 And *everything* about it is just like that: they're so close to being useful 18:30:40 From IBM's product page: "The more IBM Lotus Notes and Domino change, the more they stay the same." 18:30:52 but yet they somehow manage to screw it up in the stupidest possible way 18:30:52 so it's just me that can't download any of the sbcl stuff from sourceforge? 18:31:27 schmx: try a different mirror 18:31:35 rsynnott: I have tried all the mirrors it lists. 18:31:51 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:31:58 rsynnott: gag. 18:32:13 <_3b> schmx: yeah, looks broken from here too 18:32:20 phew 18:32:32 I guess it's another day without a sane wm then :P 18:32:53 schmx: you could grab the source and build it with clisp :) 18:33:02 rsynnott: I can't build clisp. 18:33:04 manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 18:33:16 I run make and it fails horribly. 18:33:27 after makemake has been spitting 3 screenfulls of nonsense 18:33:46 ./makemake[2053]: [: win32msvc: unexpected operator/operand <= that kind of nonsense 18:33:59 can't you just install a binary? 18:34:15 I guess. 18:34:24 either way I can't download the source off of sourceforge. 18:34:25 schmx: Debian should have SBCL tarballs. 18:34:46 schmx: and you can get the source through cvs or git. 18:34:49 luis: I guess I'll enable linux emulation :P 18:34:57 hmmm.. 18:35:03 I'll try that building with clisp 18:35:23 first I need to go buy a pizza. 18:35:29 thanks for the help :) 18:35:58 dismantr [n=jean-bap@ptr25-1-78-228-5-94.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:09 <_3b> you could also try xcl 18:36:14 xcl? 18:36:27 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has quit [Client Quit] 18:36:40 <_3b> http://armedbear.org/ 18:36:45 hmmm.. 18:37:11 and it will run stumpwm for me? 18:37:30 _3b: sorry. it is win and linux only it seems :) 18:37:33 <_3b> i meant for building sbcl, dunno about running stump 18:37:41 <_3b> ah, might not be as useful then :) 18:37:52 -!- dismantr [n=jean-bap@ptr25-1-78-228-5-94.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:37:54 aah for building 18:38:00 yeah well.. it'll all work out. 18:38:02 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:38:16 I'd just wait for SF to start behaving :-) 18:38:20 I'll just write one meself... *grumble* 18:38:31 luis: You don't understand. I'm using twm. 18:38:35 ;) 18:38:44 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:38:44 or install debian? aptitude -t unstable show sbcl ---> "Version: 1:1.0.29.11-1" 18:38:47 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:49 pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:38:49 *_3b* uses twm sometimes 18:39:02 I removed debian quite some time ago. Never felt better :) 18:39:09 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 18:39:27 aha 18:40:02 *tmh* is confused about xcl versus abcl. 18:40:06 schmx: which OS _are_ you using? 18:40:22 rsynnott: netbsd 18:40:23 I see that xcl is based on a C++ kernel and abcl is obviously on the JVM, 18:40:23 tmh: same author, not otherwise particularly related, I think 18:40:24 ah 18:40:35 rsynnott: well arch linux on the desktop, but that's not where I want me lisp. 18:40:48 (ok I want it there too, but I need a wm) 18:40:52 rsynnott: they seem to share some of the Lisp code. 18:41:16 darnit. sh make.sh 'clisp' died :( 18:41:24 <_3b> you could try to figure out how to cross compile sbcl from arch 18:41:37 ahah :) 18:41:37 rsynnott: That's interesting. The author should start a blog discussing these implementations. I'd be interested in motivation and rationale. 18:42:03 SBCL cross-compilation is fairly easy, but involves a shared filesystem or a few back-and-forth file copies. 18:42:30 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-187-178.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has left #lisp 18:42:32 I hadn't realised that sbcl was even available for netbsd 18:42:46 seems to be. 18:42:48 (actually, I wasn't aware that netbsd still really existed :) ) 18:43:06 *nyef* is giving half-serious consideration to setting up NFS so that he can cross-build a MIPS SBCL that can run on his Linux/MIPSel system. 18:43:18 I installed it just a day or two ago. Very much happy with it. 18:43:33 <_3b> schmx: might try make.sh 'clisp -ansi -on-error abort' 18:43:34 yeah doesn't linux support more platforms than netbsd these days? :) 18:43:54 well, I think linux supports more platforms than just about anything these days 18:44:05 probably does ,ya. 18:44:08 right but that was netbsd's claim to fame 18:44:29 But you know.. doesn't java run on more computers than lisp these days? 18:44:51 _3b: so far it be working better. 18:44:51 I doubt it, since lisp runs on java. :) 18:45:02 ehehe. 18:45:23 I just want something nice and simple for me laptop. so netbsd it is. 18:45:31 now I'll go buy me a pizza or two. 18:45:39 thanks fro the help :) 18:45:47 I'll be back when mcclim fails ;) 18:46:13 willb [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 18:46:39 dude, In netbsd's features page: " In the process of ARCnet support the ARP subsystem was reworked to remove Ethernet dependencies and to be more generally applicable. " 18:46:43 Actually, openbsd has pretty good laptop support these days. 18:47:17 But, not such good lisp support. 18:47:27 I mean, ARCnet support is fine and all, but is that really a feature you have to explicitly call out? :) 18:47:58 somewhere, there is one arcnet user who is very happy about that 18:48:16 (nit that he has anyone to connect to, obviously ;) ) 18:50:14 rsynnott: you don't know, perhaps there's some secret operation with thousand of arcnet hosts running openbsd? 18:50:35 if anyone has hardware, linux supports arcnet too. :) 18:50:51 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:51:04 tmh: problem is that openbsd is *really* slow. 18:51:06 Perhaps the NSA runs its hardened linux on arcnet? 18:51:23 security through obscurity? 18:51:56 -!- francisco [n=fhc@bl4-88-179.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:53:33 does someone know of Pascal Bourguignon's standard CL reader implementation? 18:53:44 pjb might. 18:53:45 pjb might know 18:54:44 sure, i already asked him, but got nothing for this question 18:54:49 so far 18:55:23 it was a few weeks ago... 18:56:20 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:56:45 does lisppaste support highlighting particular lines, like pastebins usually let you put @@ at the beginning of a line? 18:58:09 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@117.192.23.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:58:46 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:58:55 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:25 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-25-19.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:03:56 eh i was confusing preserve-whitespace-p with something else in that question 19:04:26 namely i need to read a form and return the whitespace too in the resulting structure 19:04:50 to be able to rebuild the original source but with syntax highlight, etc. 19:05:04 and clearly preserve whitespace is not for that 19:05:34 mathrick pasted "Why does it say REGISTER-VALUE is undefined?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84014 19:05:49 I don't get what the problem is 19:06:42 mathrick: you're using flet. 19:06:57 ah, right 19:07:00 thanks 19:07:24 no, wait 19:07:31 what do you think how difficult it is to extend pjb's reader to have that? 19:07:34 I don't get it after all 19:08:05 pkhuong`: why does flet not work here? 19:08:13 mathrick: flet functions cannot see each other. 19:08:32 mathrick: REGISTER-MOVE references REGISTER-VALUE 19:08:37 bah, I thought I changed it to LABELS 19:08:42 and then confused myself 19:08:51 that was stupid of me, thanks 19:11:35 ubuntu2 [n=ubuntu2@c83-251-39-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:12:08 sellout: Out of curiosity, why would working on a notes team be soul-crushing? 19:13:06 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:13:16 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:13:18 wgl: Because the product you're working on is archaic and pretty much universally reviled. 19:13:47 sellout: Are you talking about clozure again ! 19:13:59 I'd have guessed Linux. 19:14:05 bob_f: zing! 19:14:07 -!- ubuntu2 [n=ubuntu2@c83-251-39-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 19:14:21 Ah. I worked on it long time ago at an enterprise client and some features of it were new and innovative. I didn't find it too bad then. Been about 15 years. 19:15:08 slackaholic [i=1000@187-24-133-200.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 19:15:15 ubuntu2 [n=ubuntu2@c83-251-39-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:15:53 pjb hi! 19:16:16 -!- willb [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:16:40 wgl: Yeah, I can see that being the case 15 years ago :) I used it happily maybe 12 years ago. And unhappily more recently. 19:16:41 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:16:50 willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 19:18:35 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:47 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-187-178.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 19:21:06 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-24-133-200.3g.claro.net.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:22:09 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-67.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:22:42 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:24:44 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 19:25:24 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 19:26:59 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.183.111] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:31:01 -!- Demosthenex [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 19:32:10 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.7.237] has joined #lisp 19:34:02 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:36:23 levy_: the problem is that if you want to keep the spaces, that changes the structure of what is read. 19:36:53 pjb, ah, hello, thanks, i know and i can live with that 19:37:16 pjb, actually i created a source-whitespace class, modified read-token 19:37:17 levy_: you could read the space with a special reader macro, but like for comments (either #||# or ; comments), you would add tokens in the flow. This would pose problems with #+ and #-. 19:37:44 levy_: so you would have to change at least these two reader macros, to take into account comments and spaces. 19:37:45 Am I the only person that struggles with naming data structures? I always struggle with get the right mix of descriptive and concise. 19:38:06 pjb, maybe there's another way, actually what i want to do is correct syntax highlighting 19:38:30 levy_: but there is another solution: not to read spaces. After all why do you need them for? But you can always recover them by using the file positions that are noted with the tokens that are read, reading again the file for the spaces. 19:38:45 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:39:07 levy_: notice also that it wasn't a specification to read the spaces, because it's assumed that they can be reconstituted by the indentation algorithms. 19:39:07 i need to reproduce the original source with whitespaces while syntax highlighting 19:39:30 levy_: won't you do indentation at the same time? 19:39:34 if i were to read the file again then i don't know how syntax highlighting would work 19:39:45 no actually i don't (that might be optional) by default 19:39:57 there might be a good reason to indent code as it is 19:40:25 so i though traversing the source tree and putting how is file position of tokens tracked? 19:40:58 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 19:41:08 hmmm, maybe i could read file content between subsequent tokens and consider it whitespace 19:41:20 while traversing down 19:41:57 levy_: cf source-text.lisp. You can compute the end file position of a token by adding it's source-object-position to the length of its source-object-text. Then knowing the end file position of a token, and the source-object-position of the following, you can read-string-between-file-positions to get the spaces. 19:42:03 but for that i would need both begin and end positions 19:42:09 Tes. 19:42:11 Yes. 19:42:30 ah, sounds like a working idea 19:42:42 now i have to copy the stuff i did to a tmp folder 19:42:51 That was what I expected to do if ever I had to get the spaces. 19:43:05 I have sbc! 19:43:13 sbcl! too 19:44:45 Gah, I'm looking at code that I wrote in March and cringing. It's amazing how much one's coding style evolves in just 4 months. I've been studying lisp for 3 years now and am still learning enough to significantly affect my habits. 19:44:46 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A134A.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:44:47 pjb, BTW this is a very well written library, i just miss an ASDF system 19:45:08 levy_: for now, there's an asdf system loading the whole directory. 19:45:16 I think the main things that have changed are more in depth study of CLOS and learning loop. 19:45:21 benny [n=benny@i577A1F60.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:45:29 tmh: Just wait for a few years and onto other languages...the concepts remain through languages and old code just feels horribly ugly, heh. 19:45:30 The file is called system.asd 19:45:32 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:45:45 pjb, i know but that's just way too much for me 19:46:13 levy_: I've got it on by todo list to split it in several asdf systems. 19:46:37 pjb, i know that it's a headache 19:46:52 *Adlai* tries reading the scrollback but it's quite long... which system are you discussing? 19:46:53 It's not that, it's only that I don't have a lot of time. 19:46:54 *tmh* needs a synonym for homogeneous. 19:47:27 tmh: similar? 19:47:40 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:47:42 minion: logs 19:47:42 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 19:47:46 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:47:48 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:47:57 Xach: thx 19:48:22 tmh: if they're homogeneous in one characteristic X, "isoX". 19:48:37 tmh: clones 19:48:41 pjb: no, something to contrast with composite. Just looked at the thesaurus, uniform might work, iso has potential. 19:48:52 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 19:49:31 tmh: "mono-phase" 19:50:09 tmh: all-the-same 19:50:49 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:53:00 bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has joined #lisp 19:53:18 tmh: amorphous 19:53:20 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:54:27 pjb: You were closer with iso. :-) 19:55:05 "iso" literally means "same", or "equal" 19:55:05 ok. 19:55:37 Well you have to use it as a prefix to some characteristic. 19:55:57 What was composite? 19:56:06 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-67.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 19:56:31 This is related to a structure, so composite-layer as opposed to an anisotropic-layer, orthotropic-layer or isotropic-layer. 19:56:48 Yes, sounds good. 19:57:39 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-67.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:58:02 anisotropic, orthotropic and isotropic materials are homogeneous, so I was trying to lump them, but the iso suggestion made me think it would be useful to expand the data structures. 19:58:30 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.229.252] has joined #lisp 19:58:39 -!- moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:58:54 It's always a good thing to think about the terminology. Makes you analyze better the problems. 19:59:32 pjb: I agree. It also guides the data structures and helps with relationships. 20:01:46 -!- kmels is now known as kmels-away 20:04:14 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-85-112.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:05:05 http://www.boundvariable.org/task.shtml <-- is it only me, or is the endianness not specified anywhere? 20:06:27 mathrick: second paragraph, "Behavior." section. 20:06:32 mncharity [n=mncharit@c-98-216-110-149.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:16 (random note: the ubuntu and fedora packages for sbcl seem in need of some love. they are currently back at .18 and .26) 20:12:11 ubuntu2_ [n=ubuntu2@c83-251-39-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:12:44 -!- ubuntu2 [n=ubuntu2@c83-251-39-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:12:45 <_3b> mncharity: distros with releases tend not to upgrade packages until the next release, not much we can do about that 20:12:57 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.7.237] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:13:41 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:13:44 pkhuong`: right 20:13:50 mncharity: Do you have a specific reason to update? 20:16:33 _3b: could be for fedora. but .18 was july '08 http://sourceforge.net/projects/sbcl/files/ , suggesting something else for ubuntu 20:16:50 <_3b> ubuntu was probably just using whatever debian had at the time 20:17:09 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:17:10 tmh: fresh installs. noticed the versions didn't match, and we're latest. 20:17:23 /weren't/ 20:17:31 <_3b> most of us tend to just ignore distro packageing for lisp stuff, particularly the common-lisp-controller based ones 20:17:44 nod 20:18:32 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:19:23 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-25-19.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:21:27 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:13 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 20:24:24 I note in passing that having up-to-date packages gives potential users a warm fuzzy of "someone cares enough to keep this current, yay". Vs "hmm, no one has touched this in ages, I wonder just how dead it is". Minor issue. Just thought if anyone was already a pkg admin, they might attend. Actually... 20:24:56 debian will sometimes deal if one merely bugreports the latency. That I can do... 20:24:57 <_3b> debian/ubuntu next versions appear to have .29 20:25:33 ah, ok. :/ I should have checked that. my thanks. 20:25:54 _3b, with CLC still? 20:26:03 <_3b> tic: looks like it 20:26:22 <_3b> http://packages.ubuntu.com/karmic/sbcl <- is all i know 20:26:30 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-85-112.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:27:53 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-85-112.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:28:34 mncharity, aptitude -t unstable show sbcl in debian has .29 for those who want latest version (well, .30 is latest now .. but it has been out for a few days only , so) 20:29:38 thank you 20:31:11 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 20:31:54 In a .lisp file, how to read in a file in the same directory? 20:32:09 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 20:32:11 jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has joined #lisp 20:32:13 (with-open-file (stream "sobol-100x1111.dat") (read stream)) 20:32:26 That is what I have now. but it goes to HOME for that file 20:32:50 maybe you're looking for *load-truename* or *load-pathname* .. those won't work if you eval the buffer though 20:32:54 leo2007: it goes to *default-pathname-defaults* 20:33:32 didn't know about that one .. nice 20:33:48 pjb, figuring out the whitespaces seems to be more tricky than i thought 20:33:48 Try: (merge-pathnames "sobol-100x1111.dat" *load-pathname* nil) 20:33:52 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Yay! I'm a llama again. http://www.shlomifish.org/"] 20:34:24 -!- jchicas [n=jchicas@136smtph3wg.tigo.com.sv] has quit [Client Quit] 20:34:28 for example source-sequence has its opening and closing parentheses included in its position and text length 20:34:57 Indeed. Then you have to compute the difference between two starts (or to ends), and take into account the size of the opening (or closing) bracket. 20:35:00 there is also source-function 20:35:03 #2A( ... ) 20:36:07 pjb: thank you. 20:36:49 sobol-100x1111.dat actually contains an 2d array formatted as #2A((...) (...) ...) 20:37:22 leo2007: it was an example for levy_ actually. 20:37:37 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:37:42 leo2007: happily, there may not be spaces between # and 2, and 2 and A, but you may have "#2A ( ((a b) (c d)) )" 20:37:54 levy_: happily, there may not be spaces between # and 2, and 2 and A, but you may have "#2A ( ((a b) (c d)) )" 20:37:54 leo2007 pasted "read" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84021 20:38:01 leo2007: sorry. 20:38:19 Hmm, now if http://www.cliki.net/ had a cookbook (eg http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/ ), the one could say "thanks for the question! please now take a moment to add the answer to ..." :) 20:38:45 pjb, that is horrible... :-( 20:38:54 leo2007: usually, I prefer to pass the path of the files I load/read as a parameter. So it's easier to try other files. 20:39:17 pjb: I am using the file for unit testing 20:39:37 levy_: you will have to write specific reader macros to take notes of all the significant positions. 20:39:46 can you look at paste 84021? 20:40:21 leo2007: I have. Do you have a specific question? 20:40:26 pjb, for that example it is recorded in the source-lists down the tree 20:40:30 mncharity: I always build from source, never use the debian or whatever packages. This way, I have exact knowledge of the version I am running, and what features are in the build. If a version is announced that has a feature that I can use, e.g., 1.0.29, then I can propagate that one. 20:40:33 that code failed 20:40:54 it is just tricky to get the whitespaces back correctly and put them in place 20:41:14 the (with-open-file ... ) returns NIL, it seems. 20:43:02 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:43:25 levy_: good. But in general, see the macros building-source-object, building-reader-macro-source-object, and building-reader-dispatch-macro-source-object, they keep track only of the start position. You'll have to check that it is always possible to find all the positions you need, otherwise you will have to add recording the needed positions. 20:43:46 bah, I might be stupid, but is there no dimension that says "figure it out from initial contents" to be given to MAKE-ARRAY? 20:43:55 leo2007: what do you have in the file? 20:44:03 moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 20:44:37 mathrick: no, but you may try to compute it. However, what if the elements of the matrix are sequences? 20:44:41 Is that a tensor? 20:45:00 Or perhaps you wanted a vector of matrices? 20:45:02 fair enough 20:45:11 pjb: #2A(\n(...)...\n) 20:45:16 wgl: nod. modulo if I invite randoms "all you have to do to run my foo is apt-get sbcl", then... better I hit whatever pain lies therein then they do. 20:45:20 a 100 x 1111 array 20:45:25 pjb: I meant mostly the length, I can give the dimensionality 20:45:32 leo2007: you literally have \n? 20:45:40 leo2007: add a print to see what you get in from-fortran. 20:45:56 tmh: no 20:46:05 *load-pathname* is nil 20:46:10 that is the problem 20:46:18 mathrick: if you know the rank, then you can compute the dimensions. 20:46:20 wgl: but good point. thanks. 20:46:48 tmh: I eventually come back to test the big array ;) 20:46:54 leo2007: of course, *load-pathname* is non-nil only when you are actually loading a file containing that expression! 20:47:01 You cannot test it in the REPL. 20:47:12 leo2007: that's why I told you to use an explicite pathname argument. 20:47:16 that is rather inconvenient. 20:47:25 tmh annotated #84021 "Define the correct directory leo2007" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84021#1 20:47:34 yes, but the package might be moved around 20:47:44 Then define it relatively. 20:47:55 mncharity, it's almost easier to just dump a core dump and distribute that in that case; http://paste.lisp.org/display/83851 .. then you're 100% sure what they are running 20:48:01 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:26 leo2007: notice also that merge-pathnames is done automatically using *default-pathname-defaults* so you could just set that variable to a path to the directory where you're working in. 20:48:38 tmh: it should be relative to current directory where the .lisp file lies 20:48:59 but I don't know how to do that 20:49:07 pjb: noted. Thanks. 20:49:23 (setf *default-pathname-defaults* #P"/some/directory/where/you/put/your/dot-lisp/file/") 20:49:32 leo2007: What pjb said. 20:49:40 lnostdal: hmm... interesting idea 20:49:57 leo2007: You could even do that in a let form. 20:50:40 pjb: this hardcoded the pathname. It will break if I move the package to another machine, for example. 20:51:10 leo2007: indeed. 20:51:32 leo2007: the proposed solution is to deal with logical-pathnames and use load-logical-pathname-translations 20:51:52 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-56.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:52:01 *_3b* would just tack a DEFVAR form onto the data file and load it with asdf :p 20:52:23 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 20:52:44 leo2007: or you could use the unix way, and define your directories pathnames in defparameter and use them in merge-pathnames, or *default-pathname-defaults*, etc. 20:53:23 pjb, does source-reader-macro-left-parenthesis intentionally gives preserve whitespace as nil when calls source-read? 20:53:29 clhs *default-pathname-defaults* 20:53:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_defaul.htm 20:54:31 leo2007: Start there. Your lisp implementation will set that to some "implementation-dependent pathname, typically in the working directory that was current when Common Lisp was started up." 20:56:22 levy_: I think yes, because of the peek-char in the loop, it wouldn't be useful to preserve whitespaces there. 20:56:49 levy_: but I didn't consider the recursive effects of preserve-whitespace. It's possible that it'd be better to preserve them. 20:57:37 -!- metawilm_ [n=willem@e179147159.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 20:57:58 tmh: that seems to go down pjb's route 20:58:44 leo2007: That's because that's how lisp works. How is the system loaded, including the tests, asdf? 20:59:16 unfortunately i have very little knowledge about that. 20:59:42 leo2007: most implementations running on unix, or even on posix system provide a way to call unix chdir primitive. I defined my own functions cd, pwd, etc that keep synchronized *default-pathname-defaults* and the unix working directory. Have a look at: http://darcs.informatimago.com/public/lisp/common-lisp/browser.lisp 21:00:12 pjb, another thing is when reading " (foo (bar))" with a space before (foo and also before (bar 21:00:33 Sure you do, you are the one starting the lisp implementation and loading the lisp code, how does that work? 21:00:35 leo2007: while inside lisp, you may consider that *default-pathname-defaults* is your current working directory. Setting it is the same as cd on unix. 21:00:42 pjb, the first SOURCE-LIST includes the space in the position while the second does not 21:01:05 pjb, i'm not sure if this is correct 21:01:06 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:20 levy_: the first shouldn't. Its position should be that of the open parenthesis. 21:01:40 The position of the second space can be retrived from the position of foo, and it's text length. 21:01:54 francogrex [n=franco@91.177.17.12] has joined #lisp 21:01:59 The second source-list is correct. 21:02:35 A peek-char t is missing at the start of reading, I'd say. 21:03:08 tmh: I sym link the .asd to ~/.sbcl/systems 21:03:47 pjb, ah that was with preserve whitespace t 21:04:05 sbcl is started in pretty much arbitrary dir 21:05:59 pjb and tmh: I have used the hardcoded method to get the code running first. 21:06:02 -!- wakeup_vanuber [n=wakeup@koln-4db42968.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:06:16 leo2007: How about this, rename 'sobol-100x1111.dat' to 'sobol-100x1111.lisp', prepend a '(defvar *fortran-data*' and an extra ')' to your fortran output and add 'sobol-100x1111.lisp' to your asdf definition. 21:06:55 levy_: bbl; you may send me email if you have further questions or patches ;-) 21:07:14 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:08:02 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:47 tmh: Yes, I have thought about this too ;) 21:09:21 leo2007: I think that is the solution with the least pain. 21:09:51 leo2007: Most robust as well. Otherwise, you're going to be writing some sort of routine to walk directories and search for the file. 21:09:55 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:10:13 yes, I think I will make the unit testing a separate system 21:10:23 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:11:09 tmh: the file .dat is 1.2M and it takes about 1 seconds for the testing to run. so the performance seems reasonable. 21:11:27 I am using os x with 2.0G cpu. 21:11:50 Does anybody have experience writing a ~/.Xmodmap for switching CAPS and CTRL and <> and ()? 21:12:08 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-94-105.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:12:31 Adlai: no, I let xkeycaps generate that for me (not that I configure it exactly that way) 21:12:47 Adlai: use the gnome keyboard configurator dialog box to do that. :) 21:12:52 is that a program that'll generate xmodmaps? 21:13:11 foom: I just migrated away from GNOME to Arch + StumpWM :D 21:13:16 I think xmodmap is deprecated 21:13:24 you're supposed to use xkb variant magic stuff I don't understand 21:13:28 s/GNOME/Ubuntu + GNOME/ 21:13:29 which is what the gnome thing does 21:13:54 xkeycaps lets you visually create an xmodmap file. 21:14:18 yeah but xmodmap doesn't work right anymore I think 21:14:24 works fine for me. 21:14:33 *Adlai* is about to find that out for himself, foom. 21:14:38 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 21:15:07 If the Gnome / freedesktop cabal say something is deprecated, it's probably because it actually works, and they'd rather replace it with something 10x more complicated that solves the wrong problem. 21:16:11 hefner: don't knock Gnome, I think it does a good job of hiding the rough interior of configuring a Linux system 21:16:22 ie, it's great for people who don't want to do any real configuring 21:16:33 are there any new published books on common lisp? anyone knows? 21:16:37 I certainly agree in spirit, but even if xmodmap was just fine, I think it got sabotaged by the change to xkb 21:16:50 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 21:16:58 foom: what's xkb? I have no "man xkb" :( 21:17:10 francogrex: how new is new? 21:17:12 Adlai: yeah, I hate that. it's terrifying. they don't want to hide the interior, they want to replace it. they day I'm forced to install Gnome to do some menial administrative task, I'm going to start shooting. And I fear that this is pretty much inevitable. 21:17:37 http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Configuring_keyboard_layouts_in_X 21:17:40 *Adlai* ducks in advance. 21:17:50 foom: thx, I'll check it out 21:19:13 I don't know how you get a list of the possible things to put in XkbOptions, but the one you want is XkbOptions "ctrl:swapcaps" 21:19:26 Adlai, like in 2008 or 2009? 21:20:04 gnome and kde's keyboard dialog ask X for a list of the possibilities, via some API or another. :) 21:20:12 krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-55-65.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:20:18 -!- anton` [n=user@77.70.2.99] has left #lisp 21:20:31 it would really be a lot easier just to use xkeycaps. 21:20:56 foom: that's an interesting read but I'd rather learn a bit more about X internals 21:21:03 francogrex: hm, no clue. 21:22:44 -!- ubuntu2_ [n=ubuntu2@c83-251-39-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:25:05 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:26:02 also, swapping caps is dumb. fine, make it a control key, but I don't see any point in keeping it around as opposed to just gaining a third control key. 21:26:47 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-85-112.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:27:42 ctrl:nocaps then 21:28:30 how.. magical. 21:28:41 lispm [n=joswig@e177159125.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:28:44 seems it's defined here: /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/ctrl 21:28:48 -!- ausente [n=user7994@187.10.17.28] has quit ["eject"] 21:28:52 not magic at all. :) 21:29:23 ausente [n=user7994@187.10.17.28] has joined #lisp 21:31:11 oh, okay, just pointless then. 21:33:56 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 21:33:59 hi. 21:33:59 ehu`, memo from tcr: The SYNCHRONIZED-ON stuff looks good and it alleviates the need for Gates. I think my implementation of Gates can be dropped. 21:34:06 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:34:13 ah. thanks. 21:34:23 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:34:23 quick question re XMLS 21:34:29 does anybody use it? 21:34:31 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 21:34:41 I'm getting an error with it (on SBCL 1.0.30): 21:35:10 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-94-105.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:35:16 (XMLS::RESOLVE_ENTITY "lt;") --> "lt;" is not of type (SIMPLE-ARRAY BASE-CHAR (*)) 21:35:46 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:35:47 I didn't use to have these errors before; say with sbcl .19 21:36:12 however, I'm not aware of changes in sbcl in this respect. Did I miss an important change? 21:36:26 perhaps you were building sbcl without unicode at that time? 21:37:01 it's a bad declaration in xmls, which people have complained about for 5 years or so. I can't believe it's still there... 21:37:28 time for a forked release then, probably. 21:37:40 ok. maybe I removed a declaration before then. 21:37:46 I'll go check the sources 21:38:52 ehu`: i've tried to pass maintainership of xmls to others, and nobody seems interested, though a few accepted 21:39:10 heh. 21:39:11 ok. 21:39:21 ehu`: it's yours if you want it :) 21:39:33 so, obviously others use other libs? 21:40:02 drewc: if people complain about this declaration, but there are very few other bugs, why not? 21:40:08 i use xmls as part of tal, but it includes its own xmls.lisp.. for anything else i use cxml. 21:40:12 hefner: how do I figure out what kind of keyboard I have, at the start of xkeycaps? 21:40:14 I'll happily create a new release which fixes it. 21:40:41 ehu`: i'll add you to the clnet project right now 21:40:52 I remember having used cxml. no idea why I changed to xmls. 21:40:59 I think because of its size. 21:41:07 done 21:41:11 thanks. 21:41:41 ehu`: xmls is nice and small, i just usually have bigger needs these days. 21:41:48 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:41:57 anybody else know how to set up the keyboard type with XKeycaps? 21:42:09 np. my need is a small bot, so... I'm satisfied to keep a small lib. 21:42:15 I'll create a new release. 21:42:21 some time soon. 21:42:30 not now; it's 15 to mid-night. 21:42:54 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-167-196.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:44:49 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 21:46:39 awesome, I finally got tired with encoding UM instructions by hand, so I modified my code to define symbolic constructors as well. That took me about 10 lines of code, which is less than there are opcodes altogether 21:46:41 macros FTW 21:47:03 ehu`: a bot? 21:47:15 yup. 21:47:48 ehu`: a few of us have been working on an irc bot on top of your cl-irc stuff. 21:48:02 the thing is bloated by now, though :\ 21:48:33 I have a small bot based on the same library. it's not bloated (yet :-) 21:48:42 lemme check the link 21:49:20 http://hix.nu/svn-public/alexis/ 21:49:21 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:42 Adlai: I don't know, I just pick 105 key. I don't think it makes much difference, within reason. 21:51:09 sykopomp: it's in the works to have actually working DCC stuff in cl-irc too (because it claims to be there, which really isn't the case) 21:51:22 but that's the plan for about 3 years :-/ 21:51:38 anyway, once I get to it (and usocket supports all of it) 21:51:47 it should be quite trivially added. 21:51:48 hefner: thx 21:51:51 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8164060.stm 21:52:03 the only problem is that here are too many DCC protocols 21:52:22 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:52:25 (via https://twitter.com/sigaard/status/2784584686) 21:52:28 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.177.17.12] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:52:41 woops, wrong channel 21:52:42 sykopomp: the bot is only bloated if you count all the 30 bits of crap that people have tacked on... the bot itself is still fairly straightforward. 21:52:49 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:53:18 Adlai: time for modularization? 21:53:30 ehu`: that's what I've been working on, on-and-off, in the past week. 21:54:00 wow, before midnight (7 minutes :-) i got working the syntax highlight stuff 21:54:53 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:55:28 segoe [i=3e164621@gateway/web/freenode/x-b371d5311fe3e34f] has joined #lisp 21:56:24 twitter URLs could hold the whole message, heh. 21:56:37 hiç 21:57:11 benny99 [n=benny@p5486EE1C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:31 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:57:42 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 21:59:25 -!- krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-55-65.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:59:33 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:59:58 krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-29-204.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:01:31 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:02:34 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:04:32 yoonkn__ [n=yoonkn@210.108.170.70] has joined #lisp 22:06:15 aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:09:03 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:09:28 ehu`: sorry, I missed anything you said after 'check the link' :\ 22:09:45 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 22:09:55 hefner: how do I even use that program? I can't figure out how to map keys in it. 22:10:23 sykopomp: I pasted this link: http://hix.nu/svn-public/alexis/ 22:10:55 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 22:13:17 hefner: how do I switch keys? 22:13:54 Adlai: you right click a key, pick "Exchange Keys", then click the key you want to swap it with 22:14:29 hefner: I right click the key, and I have to hold down the mouse button for the menu to stay there. When I try clicking one of the menu items, the menu vanishes. 22:14:31 ehu`: http://github.com/sykopomp/sykobot is mine, fyi. 22:14:48 *Adlai* should probably try with a real mouse, rather than whatever thinkpad excuse for a mouse is on here 22:15:06 ehu`: Check out my fork for the latest code, sykopomp is lazy with pulling. 22:15:09 Adlai: hold the right button and release it over the item you want to select. 22:15:34 Adlai: the nipple, you mean? 22:15:37 note that speaking into the mouse doesn't work. 22:15:57 ? 22:15:58 lol 22:16:50 -!- mncharity [n=mncharit@c-98-216-110-149.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:16:55 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-56.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:17:33 hefner: it doesn't work... 22:18:15 stumpwm is probably breaking it >.< 22:18:42 I can't explain it, then. I know debian occasionally ships a broken version of it where the menu doesn't work, probably part of a large gnome/xorg/xkb conspiracy. 22:19:00 hefner: I got it from Arch's repos 22:19:29 -!- ausente [n=user7994@187.10.17.28] has quit ["Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de"] 22:21:00 -!- yoonkn_ [n=yoonkn@210.108.170.70] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:31 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.237] has joined #lisp 22:21:32 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 22:24:29 no wonder I mistake this channel for #stumpwm if you're talking about stump here ;) 22:24:36 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:27:36 *grumble* 22:27:43 why won't this damned thing work 22:30:57 -!- krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-29-204.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:31:13 krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-83-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:32:11 joswig [n=joswig@e177144227.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:32:23 hefner: I'm just writing this by hand >.< 22:35:15 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177159125.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:36:58 hello joswig 22:37:09 thanks for correcting my sloppyness ;) 22:37:16 plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.194.207] has joined #lisp 22:37:59 i'm trying to install slime, i placed the files in my elisp folder and now when M-x slime it starts compiling, but gets stuck because: debugger invoked on a SB-INT:SIMPLE-FILE-ERROR: 22:37:59 Couldn't load "/home/plutonas/elisp/slime-2.0/swank-loader.lisp": file does 22:37:59 not exist. <--- any idea why? 22:39:05 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483AC2D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:40:12 hello. I have seen emacs from porticus and aquamacs, etc., on mac os. whats (in your oppinion) the best thing to use slime with? 22:42:20 -!- nha [n=prefect@92.105.64.137] has quit ["Peace, Love, Linux"] 22:44:13 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:45:21 hm, ok problem fixed but how do i get the slime buffer with the CL-USER> prompt, instead of the sbcl prompt * 22:45:22 ? 22:45:51 arquebus [n=shintaro@201.139.148.92.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 22:45:56 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:46:21 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-79-16.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:47:37 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 22:49:28 -!- fiveop_ [n=fiveop@e179127085.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 22:49:57 where do I find the external format SBCL will use when opening files? 22:50:00 -!- levy_ [n=levy@apn-94-44-5-148.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 22:50:25 sb-impl::*default-external-format* 22:50:29 I thought sb-impl::*default-external-format*, however, it still seems to use :ascii on my files even though that value is :utf-8 22:50:31 plutonas: you need to actually set up the slime repl. :) 22:50:38 plutonas: load slime-fancy. 22:50:44 fe[nl]ix: hmm. then I must be doing something wrong. 22:51:03 what do I need to do to compile SBCL explicitly with unicode? 22:51:24 sykopomp: thanks it works, it didn't use to be like that, did it? is this a new "feature"? 22:51:29 ehu`: because unicode has more problems than 8-bit codes? 22:51:40 ehu`: AFAIK nothing, it should be enabled by default 22:51:44 plutonas: yes. "feature" 22:52:37 pjb: I know that, so when I read off the irc network, I try different encodings, latin1 being one of them. 22:52:52 after that, I expect everything to be "valid" utf-8 22:53:03 that's what I'm writing to a file. 22:53:05 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:53:19 yep. I skiped one "to do' in your sentence, sorry. 22:53:26 then, sbcl complains char-code 348 isn't valid ascii. 22:53:31 ok. 22:53:34 ehu`: see if :sb-unicode is in features 22:54:29 yup. 22:54:37 it's there. 22:54:50 so, that can't be it. 22:54:55 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:55:09 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Yay! I'm a llama again. http://www.shlomifish.org/"] 22:55:27 sb-impl::*default-external-format* --> :utf-8 22:55:33 so, that looks alright too. 22:55:38 ehu`: that's correct: 348 isn't a valid ASCII code point 22:56:02 true. however, I'm not doing anything special to the external format... 22:56:22 -!- arquebus [n=shintaro@201.139.148.92.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:56:26 meaning that I hoped to get the :utf-8 external format for the file I opened. 22:56:33 shouldn't I expect that? 22:56:42 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:57:09 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 22:57:34 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:59:15 ehu`: works here: (with-open-file (f "/tmp/f" :direction :output :if-exists :overwrite) (format f "~%")) 22:59:24 (with-open-file (f "/tmp/f" :direction :input) (read-line f)) => "" 22:59:25 hello serichsen 23:00:50 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:43 joswig: Hi, I just read your email 23:01:48 Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 23:01:58 aha 23:02:32 somehow I haven't seen my own email yet 23:02:58 spam filter? 23:03:14 no, I think the delivery is slow 23:03:39 half an hour? that's ages, relatively 23:03:55 yes, I have seen this before with this mailing list 23:03:56 fe[nl]ix: mine looks very much alike. difference is I used supersede instead of overwrite 23:06:53 serichsen: anyway, I'd be interested in coming, however it would be just for that day 23:06:57 um 23:07:04 joswig: s.o. 23:07:30 well, the meeting will be informal 23:07:49 Lispers meet on wednesday, evening at 19:00 23:07:58 in a restaurant in Altona 23:08:18 sometimes we meet at freiheit.com or some other places for presentations, though 23:08:19 even weirder. 23:08:35 I seem to be able to do what you do with the code-char function. 23:08:44 well, I guess that they won't just all set up their laptops and chat via IRC then ;) 23:08:45 serichsen, from where would you have to travel? 23:08:50 joswig: Bonn 23:09:07 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-67.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 23:09:21 I'm not sure it would be worth it this time, unless you would be in Hamburg anyway 23:09:48 joswig: yeah, that's the problem 23:09:59 u guys are lucky I have not found another person that even knows about lisp in 5 years....never mind having a meeting 23:10:20 harag, where are you from? 23:10:28 south africa 23:11:00 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 23:11:06 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-67.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:11:11 in never studied programming so maybe that is why i think they do some lisp at univarsities here 23:11:37 what are you doing with Lisp? 23:11:40 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-72.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:11:41 ausente [n=user7994@187.10.17.28] has joined #lisp 23:12:23 after 15 years of vb and some C# i finally got the chance to do lisp only code for clients 23:12:44 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:52 gah 23:12:58 it's damned impossible to find retail jobs. 23:13:21 working for my self so thats why I get to do lisp 23:13:54 and web apps so the clients dont mind what you use 23:13:54 I've considered becoming an independent consultant. 23:14:16 > Michael Ben-Yosef South Africa 23:14:26 But, I have no degrees or certifications, and I have no Idea how to handle myself. 23:14:26 -!- konr [n=konrad@189.98.77.26] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:14:31 > Darren Otgaar South Africa National Bioinformatics Network 23:14:40 Nobody is going to hire me for anything. 23:14:53 not tru 23:14:55 Can CLIM target curses? If it can't right now -- can a backend be written so that it can? 23:15:06 if you are good at it some one will eventually 23:15:11 curses or ncurses.. 23:15:26 How the hell do I PROVE that I'm good at something? 23:15:32 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.192.84] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:15:34 I have a degree in industrial psychology but got a lucky brek in programming 23:15:44 sykopomp: wasn't there some McCLIM code in that direction 23:15:54 So, it's all about getting lucky? 23:16:17 yes and compromise 23:16:21 konr [n=konrad@189.98.36.219] has joined #lisp 23:16:24 sykopomp: one could apply some parts of CLIM to such a backend 23:16:24 Harag: it's because of people like you that programmers can't get good programming jobs! :-) 23:16:24 grr 23:16:51 took me many years of making a name in vb and C# before i could convince a client theat lisp was the right choice 23:16:52 Harag, how do you manage your freelancing? 23:17:02 lol pjb 23:17:03 joswig: that's not very encouraging. 23:17:19 Ralith ? 23:17:24 16:20:28 < joswig> sykopomp: one could apply some parts of CLIM to such a backend 23:17:29 seisatsu: I started doing work on spec... 23:17:38 seisatsu: competition is harsh. But you must realize that you don't need a lot to live happy. Four walls, a roof, some electricity, some Internet, a computer, a couple of tomatoes and potatoes a day. 23:17:50 lol\ 23:17:51 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-10946.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:17:53 -!- ausente is now known as Mick_Jagger 23:17:56 i dont get paid upfront but I keep the ownsership of the software 23:18:24 then i charge a monthly fee ...small one and can resell the softwARE 23:18:28 Ralith: there is a bit of mismatch, CLIM was thought for a graphical GUI, it contains code to hook into windows, event handling, graphics, etc. 23:18:54 dreish_ [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:18:56 joswig: (n)curses can provide most of that. 23:19:39 yes, I but I have no idea how much work it would be 23:19:55 how much work what would be? 23:20:03 Ralith: to write a backend. 23:20:13 so one does *not* exist. 23:20:15 For an expert? 4 months? 23:20:15 seisatsu: it looks like the best way to earn a lot of money is to always do the same thing. Exactly not what programmers want to do. But if you can sell again and again always the same program to various customers, then you can easily fullfil the promized delays and features, get a good reputations and go on selling again the same thing. 23:20:15 okay. 23:20:50 pkhuong: are you around? 23:20:59 On the other hand, if you have a look at my resume, I never did twice the same thing, and I'm poor as Job. 23:21:11 has someone used trivial-ldap to make an authenticated connection to an LDAP server? 23:21:11 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:21:25 joswig: sounds like a massive piece of work for a backend D: 23:21:28 pjb: that is only tru if you dont have a family to support 23:21:52 Harag: up to what standard? 23:21:53 sykopomp, it is non-trivial 23:21:57 but opportunities wil come eventually 23:22:16 kids dont understand standards 23:22:21 Harag: make a happy familly, or make a familly stressed and oppressed by artificial "peer" chalanges? 23:22:24 and I imagine there's other areas of mcclim that it's more important to address first :\ 23:22:28 sykopomp: yeah, I think it'd be much more practical to just target curses directly 23:22:37 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:22:39 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:22:40 Harag: they understand perfectly well. They start internalizing social rules before learning to speak. 23:22:40 -!- Mick_Jagger is now known as Nick_Jeguer 23:22:56 the problem with consulting (as opposed to creating a product) is that your incoming cash flow is directly proportional to the amount you work. this sucks, and you are likely to burn out quickly, unless you are careful. 23:22:57 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:57 what is the difference between curses and ncurses? 23:23:06 pjb: happy is a relative term 23:23:13 Right! :-) 23:23:17 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 23:23:24 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 23:23:31 It can be relative to yourself, or it can be relative to your neighbor! 23:23:37 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:23:44 or your dependants 23:23:52 joswig: AFAIK, the n in ncurse, is for New. 23:23:53 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:23:59 joswig: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ncurses#History 23:24:11 me happy and my ex wife and kid happy are is world apart 23:24:18 :-) 23:24:21 but that is just life 23:24:24 ;) 23:24:45 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:26:26 all i am saying is do what pays the bills...and when you get a opportunity try the working on spec philosophy...the rest of the world sees it as cloud computing..paying for software as a service 23:26:48 what is the "spec philosophy"? 23:26:49 after many years and one or two failed companies that is the model that is working for me 23:28:29 would you want curses CLIM with mouse or without? 23:28:35 spe = look at a piece of software..if you can see that it will work for more thatn just your current client do write the software with no pay..only take monthly "rental" fees when it is complete ...but that way you can resell and the inicial client does not own the code 23:28:38 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:28:43 -!- benny99 [n=benny@p5486EE1C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:29:20 spe = spec 23:29:46 Harag: ah, i see. that seems fairly traditional, with perhaps the exception of remote (webb) applications. 23:30:04 unfortunately you need a steady day job untill you hae that first paying client 23:30:52 well in south africa you will not find anybody that is willing to take that kind of risk so hear it is not traditional in it but in other industries it is 23:33:10 once i got htat first application out on spec i was surprised at how many people came to me with ideas for applications...I evaluate..if it looks feasable i write it and the person that braught the idea sells it 23:33:25 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:33:33 so far so good 23:33:54 most Lisp users are in the US/Canada, Europe is second, Japan third, a few are in India - besides that I haven't heard much of Lisp usage 23:34:07 well, i ment that retaining the rights to your software and sell it for a fee (be it montly or one time) is (or certainly was) the typical way to run a software bizz. 23:34:24 but i'll agree with you on that one: running after consulting hours is generally exhausting. 23:35:03 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:35:11 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:35:20 in south africa the model is pay upfront and then after the delivery the software/code is your problem 23:36:48 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:37:01 yes if you write a word processor or that kind of thing then the monthly/resell model works else ware ..but i am talking about niche markets...software to enable government compliency or some thing like that ..companies usually would not write some thing generic unless they wher already inthe industry 23:37:10 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:37:24 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 23:37:47 the model i work on is that some one else brings the idea ..i write software...they sell and support i just get my monthly cut 23:38:09 ah, ok, i see. 23:39:31 the other thing about my model is that i do not try to build a life around a product...with in 2 years the market wil catch up to you so by then you should have the next product 23:39:42 -!- egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:39:57 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-48-160.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 23:39:57 egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has joined #lisp 23:40:34 hope fully after a year or two in a niche market one of the big players will buy you out and free you to go onto the next project 23:40:46 heh. 23:41:32 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:43:36 Hypno: all hype aside it took me many years to get it right with the right opportunity ..so yes luck and timeing plays a big role in my experience 23:43:42 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 23:44:22 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 23:45:18 well, i guess. i've managed to do a lot of money on just consulting and i still do but there really is a dead end in the sense that you'll never have the payout option. 23:45:39 -!- Nick_Jeguer is now known as HOH_HOH_HOH_HOH 23:46:37 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslhh233.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:46:40 as for running a lisp bizz, i think that CL would be highly complimentary in a more product centered operation. but i'm getting away from computers. my happiness is found elsewhere, i guess. ;) 23:46:52 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 23:47:36 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-67.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 23:48:04 lol like i said happyness is a relative term i was happy to code in a dark room with a pizza comming in under the door for many years...hehehe 23:49:43 that is precisly the sort of life i don't want anymore, but i can certainly sympathize with it. it's an occupational hazard i think when it comes to computing. 23:49:44 JimmySkull [n=Ozzy@189.74.90.177] has joined #lisp 23:50:05 I must also admit that going from a well paid day job microsoft world to a linux lisp world on my own took more than i thought i had in me 23:52:12 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:53:37 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:55:03 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:55:20 Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 23:55:38 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 23:57:09 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-44-66.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:57:16 -!- Adlai [n=user@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:59:51 just out of interest would some one ( a lisp guru ) be interested in reviewing lisp code for a relative newby ... at a price a off course ( i am saying at price because it is commercial applications)...?