00:03:59 -!- Jabberwock [n=jens@port-11596.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:04:09 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:08:36 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:12:27 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 00:12:51 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 00:14:58 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:02 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:17:03 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:17:18 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:17:57 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:18:46 hefner: you twittered something about crashing utf-16 decoders. Is this related to Babel? 00:19:30 borken decoders fail 00:23:25 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:24:58 -!- jyujin [n=mdeining@82.113.121.141] has quit [] 00:25:21 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:27:22 lacedaemon [n=lacedaem@88-149-210-139.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 00:29:56 Hey luis 00:30:43 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["leaving"] 00:34:45 luis: no, mpg123. 00:35:10 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:39:57 -!- lacedaemon [n=lacedaem@88-149-210-139.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 00:39:57 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-44.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:41:14 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:41:16 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:43:49 clisp 2.44.1 apparently fails to build sbcl 1.0.29.54.rc3 on Linux x86 (or x86-64, for that matter) 00:47:40 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-10-125.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 00:51:32 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-246-174-143.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:50 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-065-242.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:54:11 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:54:49 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:17 WarWeasle [n=brad@98.220.168.14] has joined #lisp 01:03:10 are fiveam tests executed in the order in which they have been defined? 01:03:30 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-39-8.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:03:31 fe[nl]ix: that patch seems to work. 01:03:32 (as in: is that specified somewhere, or is it common sense to not mess around with that) 01:05:15 hefner: have you tried saving an image then running it on another machine ? 01:06:20 What's that reader macro that allows you to specify implementation-specific code? 01:06:26 #+? 01:06:31 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 01:07:15 fe[nl]ix: no, but I'm thinking about how to do that now 01:08:21 It let you do things like #+sbcl (code-here) #+clisp (code-here), I can't remember what the exact form was though. 01:08:45 Captain_Thunder: you guessed correctly. 01:08:56 Oh, Ok. 01:09:46 hefner, you wouldn't happen to be ahefner of http://ahefner.livejournal.com/15783.html would you? 01:09:58 I am. 01:10:10 Cool, found your site from a reddit link :) 01:10:28 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:10:37 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-246-75-236.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:53 BrianRice-mb_ [n=briantri@c-98-246-75-236.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:01 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.51.207] has joined #lisp 01:12:56 With #+, is there a way to specify a default block of code that only runs if none of the other choices were possible? 01:13:38 #- is the opposite of #+. It isn't pretty, but you'll end up with something like #+sbcl foo #+clisp bar #-(or sbcl clisp) default 01:14:06 Ok. 01:14:36 rlb3 [n=rlb@70-138-117-197.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:42 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 01:14:42 -!- rlb3 [n=rlb@70-138-117-197.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:16:22 jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 01:18:40 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-246-174-143.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:22:43 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:26:19 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:27:30 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-246-75-236.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:30:33 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 01:30:51 qbg [n=chatzill@65-73-93-20.dsl1.mnd.mn.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:20 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-238-188.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:31:26 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-a54afa2301e0c811] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:31:41 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:31:54 klepparii [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 01:35:24 -!- BrianRice-mb_ [n=briantri@c-98-246-75-236.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:36:03 -!- prip [n=_prip@host171-121-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:41:28 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-148-7-32.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:45:50 fe[nl]ix: this is cool, I have a working arrangement using this. 01:45:56 krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-95-64.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 01:46:23 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:34 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:46:50 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-10-125.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:46:51 hefner annotated #83132 "build script hack" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83132#1 01:47:00 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:07 I do that after compiling but before save-lisp-and-die 01:48:39 you have to unload and reload to straighten the pathnames out (the libs subdirectory is in the library path during the build, and reopening it from there gets you a nice relative path instead of an absolute one, so that the linker search path isn't bypassed later) 01:50:07 prip [n=_prip@host69-123-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 01:53:08 -!- krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-95-64.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:55:20 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:00:09 Demosthenes [n=demo@rrcs-24-103-208-12.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:01:24 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:04:24 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-149-88.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:04:31 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:06:13 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:06:51 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:07:19 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:07:33 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:56 konr [n=konrad@c953d0a5.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 02:10:08 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.232] has joined #lisp 02:13:51 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 02:15:12 -!- qbg [n=chatzill@65-73-93-20.dsl1.mnd.mn.frontiernet.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5/20090624025744]"] 02:15:16 dys`` [n=andreas@p5B3155CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:38 Is there a stable framework to develop a web application in lisp? 02:17:13 Does Brad Parker ever appear here? 02:17:14 some like weblocks, some UCW, some like to roll their own 02:19:11 caoliver: of MIT CADR emulator fame? 02:20:14 Among other things. 02:20:30 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-238-66.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:22:44 evening 02:24:01 22:23 here. 02:24:29 no, it's only 06:24 am 02:24:30 You're either californian or a vampire.' 02:24:57 Damn this rotating planet. 02:25:11 Make time so hard to tell. 02:25:45 could be both, I s'pose 02:26:04 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:27:07 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2F86D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:27:16 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:27:37 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:27:40 weblocks uses hunchentoot, right? Isn't hunchentoot unstable for a large amount of users operating on the system? 02:28:45 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 02:29:00 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:29:07 -!- dys` [n=andreas@p5B316CD3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:29:41 Are cffi:defcstructs objects that can have inheritance? 02:29:43 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:41 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:35:22 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:12 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:37:00 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:37:24 anyone using log5? 02:37:37 good choice for logging, or roll your own? 02:37:44 or better lib somewhere? 02:38:11 G'day. 02:39:57 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:29 How does UCW compare to weblocks? 02:44:47 konr: Rumored to have less documentation, but M-. is your friend. As for Hunchentoot, scout fusss down and pester him till he gives you his super-duper-rocket-strapped-onto version 02:45:23 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-137-202.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:48 is there something similar to the with clause in loop that is executed for every iteration? 02:46:06 leo2007: for 02:46:36 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:47:48 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:11 ahh 02:50:46 have your read your Loop chapters in PCL? 02:51:54 yeah, some time ago 02:55:26 ManateeL` [n=user@116.4.146.70] has joined #lisp 02:55:54 dialtone [n=dialtone@67.116.236.75] has joined #lisp 02:57:04 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:00:35 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 03:04:20 -!- ManateeL` [n=user@116.4.146.70] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:04:37 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:06:19 hi, can I make format return T? 03:06:41 why do you need to? 03:06:56 (prog1 t (format ...)) 03:07:37 stassats: that works. I was just doing ... (format t "foo") t) but I guess I was just wondering 03:08:06 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 03:08:25 egn: still, why do you need to? (just for curiosity) 03:09:54 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.51.207] has quit [Success] 03:10:27 p_l: (loop :while (react (prompt-read "> "))) it's a prompt, (when (not (string= command "quit)) ... ) so when I (format ...) the return, it needs to be T 03:11:02 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:11:14 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:11:35 (not (string= is string/= 03:11:42 k 03:11:50 thanks 03:13:07 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-233-205.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:13:10 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-215-139.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:42 -!- konr [n=konrad@c953d0a5.virtua.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:14:39 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 03:17:30 ltriant_ [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:18:22 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:18:28 -!- ltriant_ is now known as ltriant 03:18:52 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:19:21 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@98.220.168.14] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:21:11 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:21:24 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-124-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:51 saikat_ [n=saikat@pool-71-163-70-52.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:14 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 03:26:53 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 03:26:57 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:27:15 it's probably a dumb question but...does anyone know if there's a way to return the probe count of a gethash call? 03:27:49 short of modifying the sources in sbcl, of course. 03:28:17 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:31:29 egn: hmmm.... why not make it recursive (or play around with labels if needed... sometimes I wish for a funcall variant that was based on goto without stack usage of normal funcall...) 03:31:42 konr [n=konrad@c953d0a5.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 03:32:17 why make it recursive? 03:33:36 stassats: I had grown fond of REPL "loop" actually calling itself? 03:33:49 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-71-56-34-130.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:34:06 another form could be coroutines on streams, I recall that one from my (oold) scheme book 03:34:08 (loop (print (eval (read)))) 03:34:19 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.232] has quit ["leaving"] 03:34:32 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.232] has joined #lisp 03:35:35 lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:51 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [] 03:37:54 stassats: call that "effects of spending long time in presence of hardcore haskell coder" 03:38:10 jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 03:38:34 M-x doctor should help 03:38:49 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 03:38:55 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:39:55 -!- phearle [n=phearle@c-24-63-120-211.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:40:07 stassats: my mind is twisted beyond recognition 03:40:19 getting slightly bent towards FP is nothing 03:44:44 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-36-70.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:44:53 Good morning. 03:51:58 howdy! 03:54:43 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@pool-71-163-70-52.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:58:47 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:04:46 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:05:46 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 04:07:54 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:08:04 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:00 -!- maxote [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:15:30 Quadre` [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #lisp 04:20:35 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 04:21:32 -!- wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:21:45 wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:23 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 04:29:31 maxote [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 04:34:03 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-238-188.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 04:34:36 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@rrcs-24-103-208-12.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:37:08 saikat_ [n=saikat@pool-71-163-70-52.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:35 hey beach 04:41:06 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.146.70] has joined #lisp 04:41:38 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 04:45:58 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:47:18 napum [n=napum@c-76-113-43-248.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:53 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 04:48:21 -!- napum [n=napum@c-76-113-43-248.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:48:44 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-238-188.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:56:24 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:57:04 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 04:58:03 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.146.70] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:59:38 Demosthenes [n=demo@173.86.192.171] has joined #lisp 04:59:40 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:05:35 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:06:15 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 05:08:27 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:08:30 ok, so reality check. i'm having issues trying to use map to concatenate a list of strings together with linefeeds... so my options are to use format or a recursive function of concats... 05:08:58 am i missing something obvious, or is there a "lispy" way 05:09:22 (reduce (lambda (a b) (concatenate 'string a b)) list-of-strings) 05:10:29 perhaps reduce was the key imissed 05:13:17 Cools [n=Cools@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:13:21 -!- Cools [n=Cools@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:14:44 stassats: you so smart. *pat* 05:14:46 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:14:51 i totally missed that, thank you 05:15:01 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 05:15:09 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [] 05:15:26 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 05:20:56 -!- qebab [n=finnrobi@unicorn.nnordmark.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:56 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:22:47 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:23:57 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:24:37 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 05:25:40 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Operation timed out] 05:26:02 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:30:45 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:09 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 05:31:11 morning 05:31:19 morn splittist 05:33:08 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:33:48 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 05:36:51 -!- dialtone_ is now known as dialtone 05:38:10 -!- kkbasol [n=kerim@212.174.90.98] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:38:56 jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 05:42:19 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:42:39 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 05:42:56 -!- ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 05:42:56 -!- konr [n=konrad@c953d0a5.virtua.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:42:59 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 05:45:37 roidrage [n=roidrage@ip-80-226-15-220.vodafone-net.de] has joined #lisp 05:46:01 -!- jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit ["leaving"] 05:46:13 jrockway 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[n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-3f9625d8e5e147ce] has joined #lisp 06:07:08 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:10:38 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:10:38 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:11:02 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 06:11:25 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:12:20 jmbr [n=jmbr@41.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 06:16:52 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:19:28 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:19:33 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:20:10 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 06:20:12 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:20:13 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 06:22:08 mega1 [n=mega@53d82558.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:25:50 Sbidicuda [n=antani@host134-213-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 06:26:10 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:28:44 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:29:24 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 06:32:36 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:34:20 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@ip-80-226-15-220.vodafone-net.de] has quit [] 06:34:34 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:35:05 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:35:33 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest88795 06:36:50 borism [n=boris@195-50-204-57-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 06:37:55 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:38:35 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 06:41:41 ASau [n=user@host215-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:42:20 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-205-98-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:46:12 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-21-105.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:46:37 good morning 06:46:48 Adlai_ [n=user@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:06 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:47:26 good afternoon 06:47:46 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 06:50:32 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:25 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-144-159.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 06:52:35 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 06:56:33 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:56:57 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 06:57:16 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-139.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 07:00:39 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:02:33 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:04:45 hello mvilleneuve 07:04:56 *beach* takes off for work 07:12:47 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-101-133.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:13:32 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:13:39 roidrage [n=roidrage@ip-80-226-12-76.vodafone-net.de] has joined #lisp 07:15:28 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 07:15:46 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:19:28 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:24:39 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 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07:41:27 antoni [n=user@113.pool85-53-7.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 07:42:22 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:43:02 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 07:43:48 is anybody familiar with 'ATK' ? 07:43:52 unhandled ASDF:MISSING-COMPONENT: component "atk" not found 07:44:03 using clbuild 07:44:57 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 07:45:56 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 07:47:20 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:48:47 Only atk I know is http://www.gtk.org/api/2.6/atk/. 07:49:47 -!- antoni [n=user@113.pool85-53-7.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:49:47 ahhh 07:49:52 and it's part of clg 07:50:16 but for some reason the atk interface in clg doesn't get installed before the rest of the deps in that package 07:50:30 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:43 -!- commmmodo 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08:49:11 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:49:51 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 08:50:18 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:57:09 deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has joined #lisp 08:57:46 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 08:59:03 commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 08:59:28 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:59:50 jstrane [i=jstrane@125.133.37.80] has joined #lisp 09:05:17 does anyone know where I can get a list of actions such as "running", "jumping" etc? been looking but it's difficult to find 09:05:44 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.71.28] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:08:12 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:08:13 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 09:09:01 Are you in the right channel? 09:09:09 -!- commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:10:56 tcr: yeah - lisp is kind of linked to ai in my mind so I was hoping someone would incidentally know some resource or something 09:12:41 drafael: do you just mean the words, or what? 09:12:54 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [] 09:13:38 drafael: That linkage is not really accurate since a few decades. But still, you expect without providing any context? 09:14:03 drafael: do you mean in the IF context? Surely XYZZY-related resources would be your best bet. 09:14:19 yeah, I need a list of action words 09:15:13 I'm writing a trivial idea generator - it generates ideas for things that I can draw 09:15:25 I imagine it would be a useful thing to have around anyway 09:15:53 -!- mega1 [n=mega@53d82558.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:16:55 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:16:58 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-101-133.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 09:17:26 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 09:17:28 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17EFAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:31 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:05 "Mailman is written in the Python programming language, with a little bit of C code for security. " 09:20:13 ahah, priceless. 09:20:23 drafael: you may find that in ontologies. http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OpenOntologyRepository 09:20:53 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-101-133.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:20:55 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4793.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:20:57 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-a4e59e7f88e7b849] has joined #lisp 09:21:21 luis: Yeah ;) I think it's to access some syscalls to drop privileges, but still hilarious! 09:23:02 drafael: You can interogate the opencyc ontology at: http://sw.opencyc.org/ http://www.opencyc.org/ 09:23:11 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 09:24:16 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:24:58 drafael: try: human activity 09:25:51 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.146.70] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:25:52 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 09:26:31 matimago: cheers, I'll have a look at those now 09:26:38 commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 09:27:50 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:29:16 i am kinda waiting on the next realeae cycle of Opencyc.. the build from liek two weeks ago is a JavaLisp 09:29:57 matimago: this is perfect! thank you kindly 09:30:42 when its released fully.. there is a pretty easy way to plug it in with ABCL 09:32:23 ejs [n=eugen@9-196-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:42 -!- commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:35:48 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 09:39:41 -!- deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:41:01 jtxx000 [n=jtxx000@xfpan.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:41:43 simplechat [n=simplech@123-243-79-139.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:42:50 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-a4e59e7f88e7b849] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:44:59 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:45:00 commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 09:51:55 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17EFAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:53:42 does anybody use CGL package? 09:53:52 err CLG package? 09:54:10 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 09:55:05 -!- commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:55:41 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 09:57:55 clbuild doesn't dump any of the clg components into the system directory 09:58:42 when i go outside clbuild and add my path to clg system directory with all its components to asdf:*central-registry* list, asdf never finds the packages 09:59:35 when i ln -s /path/to/clg/blah.asd /system/directory/path/from/clbuild asdf finds it but barfs 10:00:18 using sbcl on a linux ppc machine 10:00:40 The regular approach used by both asdf-install and clbuild to find .asd files is to check all .asd files directly in the software's directory. 10:01:16 asdf-install wouldn't be able to install clg because it doesn't have its files in that directory. 10:01:33 ive grabbed the tarball for clg and used asdf to install from it, and it sets it up in ~/.sbcl/clg/systems the asd files 10:02:08 clbuild has a workaround for clg in place, and also tries to find the .asd files hidden in subdirectories. Not sure why that workaround wouldn't work for you, but in any case, you can fix it yourself by setting the appropriate symlinks. 10:02:28 but when i add path to that system directory ie /home/koft/.sbcl/clg/systems to asdf:*central-reegistry* it never finds it 10:02:42 Now, if it still doesn't work, you either missed some links or have an unrelated problem with clg. 10:03:00 yea, i'm going to try and individually simlink in all of parts with clbuild next 10:03:03 In the latter case, you'd have to provide more information about the specific problem that you have. 10:03:07 it's the only thing i havnt tried yet 10:03:10 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:03:21 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 10:04:02 thanks for the tips 10:04:26 i might just have to just rm -Rf ~/clbuild and start over heh 10:05:43 don't know whether you need to be that aggressive. After all, clbuild is mostly just there to download stuf for you. 10:06:19 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-218-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 10:06:27 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Success] 10:06:40 Beyond that, you might be better served by asking the clg maintainers via email. We like to help here, but we don't always have people here who know whe intricacies of each project. 10:10:35 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:33 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-206-102-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:11:51 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@91.89.172.94] has quit [] 10:12:13 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:12:45 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.232] has joined #lisp 10:13:33 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 10:15:25 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 10:16:25 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 10:16:32 i'll be damned, symlinked in all of the asdf crap by hand to ~/clbuild/systems and it works 10:17:29 don't get why i couldn't just append the directory path to that mess to asdf:*central-registry* 10:18:38 Did you try to push /foo/bar or /foo/bar/? 10:20:34 hmm, I wonder if ASDF should warn or just do what the user means when it finds pathnames that denote files instead of directories? 10:20:44 i used this: (push "/home/koft/.sbcl/site/clg-0.93/systems" asdf:*central-registry*) 10:21:03 koft: yeah you're missing a trailing / in that pathname 10:21:20 @%$& 10:21:41 dang 10:21:46 and thats what it says in the doc too 10:21:52 (push "/path/to/clg/systems/" asdf:*central-registry*) 10:21:57 missed that 10:22:19 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:22:43 koft: There may be filesystems where directories and files could have the same name (just like functions and variable can have the name in Lisp), with the trailing slash you tell that you want the directory 10:22:45 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 10:23:23 luis: I'll do the suggestion. 10:23:31 i don;t think i'll forget that again, considering the enormous ammount of time i wasted this evening 10:23:37 tcr: cool! 10:23:39 it's bitten me, too 10:23:48 I'm pretty sure it's bitten all of us. 10:25:15 tcr: I think there's a better argument though. Enforcing the distinction between files are directories seems essential for convenient pathname manipulation. 10:25:44 tcr: Do lisps running on such filesystems use slashes as directory separators in namestrings though? 10:26:54 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.232] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:26:59 kahmalo: I have no idea. I happily ignore CL's pathname fiasco 10:28:12 i'm pretty new to lisp, and i've found dealing with pathnames a total pain with lisp on windows, so i run my lisp on linux and host an xserver on windows 10:28:54 koft: why is it any worse on windows? 10:29:36 it seemed to me that some libs want you to use / and others will use \ in hierarchy 10:30:09 koft: most lisps are fine with either, IIRC. 10:30:09 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:30:26 also, being new to lisp, i don't want to deal with that issue 10:30:54 asdf on windows is a little annoying 10:31:14 plus, i'm right at home on a unix box anyway, but i don't like using emacs in a terminal 10:31:15 tcr: what are you using instead? 10:31:16 you could always just use slime to connect to remote instance, tho 10:31:23 (along with tramp) 10:31:49 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:31:56 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 10:31:59 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.232] has joined #lisp 10:32:18 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:32:29 i'm impressed with how incredibly well slime works 10:32:53 lichtblau: The last time I had to deal with filenames, I actually used Python. 10:34:06 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:34:14 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 10:34:45 tcr: ha :-). Well, I tend to use C and I'm also happy with that... My question was more regarding Common Lisp. 10:34:52 But I guess fe[nl]ix will solve this all for us. 10:35:02 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:35:45 lichtblau: cltl3? 10:36:15 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 10:36:51 sykopomp: I am referring to iolib. No idea what you are referring to. 10:37:40 lichtblau: I believe fe[nl]ix is working on cltl3 alongside drewc? 10:38:43 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:39:34 lichtblau: Btw. the "Lisp version" links on the commonqt website ain't working 10:39:49 -!- Guest88795 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 10:40:27 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:41:08 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 10:41:28 tcr: thanks for letting me know. (The links should point to the git branch "master", not the old branch name "smoke2".) 10:42:44 silenius [n=jl@yath1870.zar.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 10:43:06 lichtblau: there's also Nikodemus' osicat, though it seems fe[nl]ix is planning to absorb that into the iolib borg. 10:43:43 lichtblau: I also have it working so C-c C-d h on #_foo symbol will bring you to the right place in the QT documentation 10:43:55 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:43:55 tcr: wow, that's cool. 10:44:10 Yeah, I'll see to get that public 10:44:58 is the clhs available as info document? 10:45:12 not clhs, but the document where clhs was derived from 10:45:15 there's dpans2texinfo 10:45:19 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:46:00 Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@84.166.61.124] has joined #lisp 10:46:04 tcr: there's also the CLOS mapping stuff in cl-smoke, which doesn't use #_. But even cl-smoke and CommonQt end up merging, I'd still prefer #_ myself, I think. 10:47:17 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:47:31 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 10:48:03 -!- ejs [n=eugen@9-196-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:48:09 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 10:48:24 I should have integrated hyperdoc much earlier into Slime. Can't live without C-c C-d h working on pretty much anything; allegro symbols, cffi, etc. 10:48:50 hello 10:50:20 commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 10:50:31 stassats: thanks, I found it (it's called dpans2texi, by the way) 10:50:36 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:52:56 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@204.194.78.3] has joined #lisp 10:54:33 cracki [n=cracki@43-055.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:55:41 hefner: ping 10:56:23 tcr: how do I get hyperdoc working with slime? 10:56:45 You wait for my employer to give me the ok to publish the code 10:58:05 fe[nl]ix: hey, hmm, that cffi-grovel stuff looks useful but I think it'd be neater if it simply used define-foreign-library and that functionality were in CFFI instead. 10:58:07 who is your employer? 10:59:09 -!- commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:59:22 luis: both are necessary(at least the unique naming of wrapper files) 10:59:30 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 11:00:03 mega1: A business producing air engines for civil and military aviation. 11:00:21 hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-286ee186515df219] has joined #lisp 11:00:46 aha, that's big enough for a go-ahead to take ages 11:00:46 fe[nl]ix: not sure if unique naming is necessary but calling the files wrappers.so is definitely not a good idea. 11:01:36 mega1: Probably, they're very picky about espionage 11:01:56 luis: it's necessary because in order to do deployment, you need to copy the wrappers too(possibly putting them in the same directory), hence the unique naming 11:02:47 tcr: that cuts it down to one of about five companies, probably, then :) 11:02:53 fe[nl]ix: what I meant is that calling them libosicat, libiolib, etc, should be enough. 11:03:46 luis: it's not inconceivable to have several wrappers in the same project 11:03:48 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 11:03:48 tcr: does that mean you can't tell us whether you're using Lisp? 11:04:23 fe[nl]ix: I'm not saying cffi-grovel would pick those names. 11:04:51 -!- blandest1 is now known as blandest 11:05:28 hmmm 11:05:29 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-148-7-32.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:35 jleija [n=jleija@24.214.122.46] has joined #lisp 11:06:38 luis: It's a big company, and they have one guy who wrote some software in Common Lisp. Given he's the only one, his job is pretty secure now :) 11:08:01 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:08:07 I think they're looking for another Common Lisp programmer after me. So if anyone wants to move to Munich, he'd probably get a Lisp job. 11:08:29 tcr: you're leaving ? 11:08:39 valcaron [n=slowpoke@174.21.46.162] has joined #lisp 11:08:41 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 11:08:42 I'm writing my bachelor thesis there. 11:10:35 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 11:10:47 luis: excellent idea 11:10:48 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:12:30 -!- lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 11:13:29 -!- Adlai_ is now known as Adlai` 11:14:09 I wonder whether it's true that Jon Harrop was asked to write a book about Clojure. 11:14:21 The frogman? 11:15:39 the troll 11:17:53 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:17:54 commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 11:18:14 I don't think there's much correlation between being a good person and being a good author. Or between having a clue and being a commissioning editor. 11:18:24 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 11:20:05 well, trolls are probably somewhat less likely to write books which communicate well 11:20:13 (imagine a book by Xah Lee!) 11:22:20 -!- bobf_ [n=bob@host86-147-202-188.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:22:22 Since when have computer language books communicated well? Don't you just lightly repackage the javadoc, introduce some further errors, and stick a picture of an animal on the cover? 11:24:34 mega1: re your slot initialization thing, I suppose someone already suggested "simply" initializing slots lazily? this way you don't have to worry about instance initialization protocols at all 11:24:50 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 11:25:00 fe[nl]ix: the ASDF one? 11:25:10 splittist: ah, yes, but choice of animal is very important ;) 11:25:17 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest44878 11:25:41 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:25:55 rsynnott: does a Troll count as an animal? 11:26:07 (there is a particularly impressive annotated C++ standard where the author persistently, seemingly deliberately makes weird errors 11:26:07 Yuuhi [i=benni@84.131.183.34] has joined #lisp 11:26:07 cmm: yes, it was suggested. I should have provided more background/constraints. SUPER is in a library and does the traditional the init-instance :after dance. 11:26:16 especially of the void main variety 11:26:28 mega1: bah 11:27:10 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:27:10 luis: only if it's cuddly 11:28:19 cmm: but what you suggest may be doable with slot-value-using-class 11:28:46 (if not with a normal accessor, because the example code uses slot-value) 11:31:27 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 11:32:00 I wonder if there is a nice and systematic way to impart lazyness to a slot defined by library code 11:32:05 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:33:06 jan247 [n=jan247@120.28.131.253] has joined #lisp 11:33:37 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-286ee186515df219] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:33:48 s-v-u-c should be it, but there is some freedom for the implementation to bypass it in certain circumstances (?) 11:34:00 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:34:32 -!- commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:36:23 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 11:37:23 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:42:32 blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has joined #lisp 11:42:46 computed-class does this sort of thing, I think 11:43:36 (well, I'm not certain whether you can reasonably subclass someone else's standard class using the computed-class metaclass) 11:43:37 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 11:43:43 cells, too 11:43:44 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:43:57 but that seems like overkill 11:44:46 computed-class is neat. 11:44:51 (the "and we'll make sure the slot value changes when the dependencies change" part does, anyway) 11:44:55 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:45:13 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:45:34 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 11:45:42 daniel__ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:47:34 what should you do to ensure that sbcl doesn't take up all your ram under linux? 11:47:56 cons less? 11:48:56 cmm: it seems to take 8GB virt size, and for some reason that hogs up the system (even though the kernel shouldn't allocate it) 11:49:06 perhaps it's a kernel option that I missed, perhaps it is something else 11:49:15 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:49:31 madnificent: perhaps you have overcommit off? 11:49:39 what does "hogs up the system" system mean here, and how did you check that the 8GB are responsible for it? 11:49:46 cmm: how do I check and how do I change it :) 11:50:02 --dynamic-space-size changes this particular parameter 11:50:04 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:50:24 _mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 11:50:24 lichtblau: I used top to see the VIRT size. I noticed that killing the sbcl process makes the system responsive again (because I don't need to swap anymore) 11:50:36 madnificent: cat /proc/sys/vm/overcommit_memory 11:51:09 but when does the system become unresponsive? Just because SBCL starts? Or when SBCL starts actually *using* memory? 11:51:13 shouldn't matter if your VM size is larger than 8G, though 11:51:14 cmm: 0 :) How do I change that correctly (so it is set as system boot too) 11:51:25 lichtblau: when sbcl is running for some time 11:51:35 lichtblau: I guess it starts using the memory, yes 11:51:37 if so, cons less 11:51:51 it is *not* only in my code 11:52:16 madnificent: in that case cmm is right and the 8 GB aren't the problem. -- except that you could set a smaller limit to make SBCL crash instead of trash, of course. 11:52:23 madnificent: how much resident memory is it using? 11:52:36 is it the fact that overcommit_memory was 0 ? 11:52:42 because then it is solved 11:52:46 and how much memory does the machine actually have? 11:52:49 rsynnott: 4GB 11:52:52 0 is ok 11:52:58 madnificent: (ROOM) could also be somewhat enlightening 11:54:16 (I've killed the sbcl processes, so for a good room report, you'd have to wait a bit :)) 11:54:32 it is debatable whether 0 is okay. 0 is what almost everyone else uses, so your system isn't configured in a weird way. 11:54:46 commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 11:54:48 fe[nl]ix annotated #83132 "better" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83132#2 11:54:56 But if you want protection against crashing, the answer would be to deviate from that and disable overcommit. You'd also have to reconfigure or ever patch your SBCL to play nicely with that though. 11:55:01 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:55:11 fe[nl]ix annotated #83132 "patch to osicat.asd" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83132#3 11:55:29 lichtblau: I'm somewhat surprised that I'm the only one having this issue 11:55:32 erm, I mean s/crashing/trashing/, i.e. protection against the "hogs up the system" situation when too much memory is in use 11:55:40 luis: try 83132 #2 and #3 11:55:54 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:11 fe[nl]ix: hmm, how about just calling the file libosicat instead of wrappers? 11:57:47 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit ["KVIrc 3.2.6 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/"] 11:57:48 luis: it won't necessarily generate a .so, when I'm finished with the C translator 11:58:15 hmm, good point. 11:58:38 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 11:58:39 madnificent: anybody who uses up all their physical memory would have this issue 11:58:59 fe[nl]ix: still, defaulting the soname to the name of the file might be a sensible default. 11:59:01 cmm: yes, however I'm surprised that only sbcl uses that much memory :) 11:59:29 -!- Guest44878 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 11:59:34 madnificent: you mean other implementations don't, on the same code? 11:59:43 luis: ok, I suppose it's simpler that way 11:59:43 demmel [n=demmel@e080.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:00:29 cmm: I can't remember clisp doing it, yet I haven't played with clisp for some time... I assume not all stumpwm users need 4GB of memory for normal usage though 12:00:47 ow :) 12:00:53 Tordek [n=tordek@host26.190-137-245.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 12:01:11 your stumpwm config is screwed? 12:01:13 fe[nl]ix: hmm, we could provide some sort of cffi:copy-libraries-to-directory right? 12:01:54 stassats`: it isn't exotic... (and that still wouldn't explain why toying around with postmodern or any other library consumes that much memory) 12:01:54 luis: to copy all open libraries or only the wrappers ? 12:02:16 fe[nl]ix: either I guess. 12:02:25 you are using postmodern for stumpwm? 12:02:55 luis: generally you don't need to copy the former, only the latter(because autogenerated and probably not present on the delivery machine) 12:03:19 -!- demmel [n=demmel@e080.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:03:28 stassats`: no, that was a separate instance... this is rediculous 12:03:56 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 12:04:10 maybe you have broken sbcl version? 12:04:15 -!- commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:04:49 stassats`: could it be, that gentoo is packaged with a broken sbcl version (no pun intended) 12:04:56 yes, agreed. It could default to copying only wrappers but having the option to copy all of them might be interesting for some delivery scenarios. (Windoes comes to mind. Also, delivering on Linux without requiring manual installation of extra libraries would be cool, too.) 12:04:59 ** and pun isn't the right word 12:05:27 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@91.23.239.173] has joined #lisp 12:05:28 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:05:31 Perhaps I should try the lisp overlay 12:05:40 luis: right 12:06:36 madnificent: what arch are you using ? 12:06:42 amd64 12:06:48 bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.234.35] has joined #lisp 12:07:26 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:32 hi Fare 12:08:02 hi 12:10:29 madnificent: do profiling to find out where you're allocating memory 12:11:29 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-101-133.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 12:11:43 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:52 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:12:31 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 12:12:35 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:12:52 -!- bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.234.35] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:13:38 commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 12:13:58 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:16:10 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@91.23.239.173] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:16:31 -!- lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-16-75.dynamic.amis.net] has quit [No route to host] 12:16:54 which profiling tool should I be using for a single-threaded SBCL thing? 12:17:46 sb-sprof is neat. 12:17:55 ok 12:18:43 Fare: if it's single-threaded sb-profile too can be useful 12:20:02 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:20:06 luis: I'll add a new option to define-foreign-library, :TYPE. this way I'll easily be able to filter libraries with :TYPE :WRAPPER 12:20:51 fe[nl]ix: right. and it would default to :system or nil, or what? 12:21:32 luis: :system is a good description 12:22:19 __mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.87.164] has joined #lisp 12:22:27 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:48 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 12:22:54 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 12:23:30 -!- commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:25:01 LostMonarch [n=roby@host131-218-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:29:06 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:30:16 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17EFAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:59 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:32:00 commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 12:32:04 I wonder if/how we can hook this into cl-launch. 12:32:15 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 12:32:36 I suspect cl-launch is too targetted into creating a single executable? 12:33:17 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@x-132-204-255-9.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 12:34:11 Fare: ? 12:34:25 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17EFAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:34:54 quek [n=read_eva@210.253.202.182] has joined #lisp 12:35:24 -!- _mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:35:49 luis: sorry -- hook what into cl-launch? 12:36:20 cl-launch can create a single executable, or an image + wrapper script, or just a script that will compile+load fasls. 12:36:34 you mean -- profiling? 12:37:10 Fare: we're looking into how CFFI can be more delivery friendly. 12:37:17 oh 12:37:27 I'd think about xcvb, not cl-launch, for that 12:37:45 ok. 12:37:57 can you run the dlopen on the equivalent of something that's memory-mapped? 12:38:29 then you could just bundle the library as part of the executable. 12:39:19 *Xach* has had thoughts recently about providing an opaque binary blob that responds to normal lisp filesystem operations for application delivery 12:39:30 Fare: not that I know of. 12:39:31 Fare: no 12:40:12 Xach: hmm, responds to what? 12:40:30 -!- commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:40:39 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:40:49 luis: directory, open, close, etc 12:40:52 Xach, won't work if you can't export it to the C libraries 12:40:58 C libraries? 12:41:10 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 12:41:17 I have written Lisp libraries because I'm too stupid to figure out how FFI works. 12:41:20 though maybe you can short-circuit open(), read() and mmap() to achieve a similar purpose 12:41:30 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:41:37 Sorry, this isn't in the context of any existing topic. Just idle chatter. 12:41:41 but then we're getting into a whole lot of trouble 12:41:55 Xach: Hmm, sorry I didn't understand what this binary blob would do? 12:42:32 luis: i deliver an application that includes some fonts and graphics, it would be nice to bundle them up. right now i unpack into a filesystem tree. 12:42:50 sort of like a .wad file for doom... 12:42:59 Xach: gotcha. 12:43:20 Xach: once again, unless you convince the C libraries to play nice, you lose 12:43:30 Fare: what C libraries? 12:43:31 Fare: who cares about C? 12:43:34 (unless your thing is 100% lisp) 12:43:36 Fare: my application is pure Lisp. 12:43:39 :) 12:43:49 zpb-ttf, cl-png, cl-vectors, etc 12:44:08 well then, I'm sure you could convince iolib to let you hook your own virtual filesystem 12:44:21 -!- __mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.87.164] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:45:06 lichtblau: as said before: it happens in many many libraries... that doesn't make it easy... is isn't my code, and it is everywhere 12:45:08 hmm, how would iolib help? 12:45:27 whatever layer that reimplements streams could help 12:45:34 lichtblau: also: I find it quite hard to believe that all stumpwm users would have this issue 12:45:36 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 12:45:38 gray streams? 12:45:50 sure - they suck, but might make do 12:45:53 madnificent: that nevertheless will help to isolate the issue 12:46:22 Xach: why not just dump the interned version of the fonts, then? 12:46:49 Fare: that's a possibility. 12:47:04 stassats: but it is very hard to find it in that case, isn't it? if it were one library, it would be feasable 12:47:30 profile and see what conses too much 12:47:42 luis: cl-launch is not the right place to add advanced linking capabilities (though I suppose it's doable) 12:48:17 dysinger [n=tim@166.203.77.110] has joined #lisp 12:48:18 actually, just like cl-launch allows you to specify a path for a dumped image, it could allow for looking for .so's at the same (or different) place 12:48:25 as I said before, it being everywhere makes it hard to do that... it isn't fun to profile just about anything you do... you'd prefer to actually do something... I'm going to try to install sbcl from the overlay and see how that goes 12:48:50 and on implementations that allow it, it could allow you to link stuff directly into the executable (e.g. clisp, maybe sbcl with some modification sbcl-side) 12:49:20 1. enable profiler 2. do something 3. collect profiling result 4. ... 5. profit 12:49:41 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:49:44 Fare: it shouldn't not very advanced. Right now the ideas that are floating involve. a) providing hooks to close all libraries before dumping and then reopining when loading the core and b) possibly copying all or some libraries into some directory for delivery. 12:49:53 s/not/be 12:50:05 stassats: there is a step between 2 and 3: wait for hours to get anything done :) 12:50:21 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 12:50:28 Adamant [n=Adamant@76.29.188.60] has joined #lisp 12:50:31 also, I think it is an allocation-thing. sbcl not giving memory back, or the OS not taking into account that that memory isn't used 12:50:34 luis: if you can provide a CL-side interface and a proposed cl-launch-side command-line interface, I could implement it 12:50:42 madnificent: if you have another way to attack this issue, good then 12:50:47 instead of a lisp internal thing. If it was something about the code, everyone would have the issue 12:50:56 oh -- and a test case 12:51:22 -!- Quadre` is now known as Quadrescence 12:51:26 cl-launch is such a complex beast, the only way to add a feature to it is to 1- write the test case, 2- hack until the test passes 12:51:36 otherwise, you break things as you add features 12:51:57 cl-launch looks surprisingly dense, indeed. 12:52:06 madnificent: but through code you can find that particular internal thing 12:52:26 How comes? 12:52:28 Fare: anyway, we have to implement the respective CFFI features first. 12:53:11 jchen (intern at ITA) added support for "using cl-launch from a dumped image initially" -- it was surprisingly hard to get the correct 10 lines of code 12:53:26 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@173.86.192.171] has quit ["leaving"] 12:53:27 luis: oh that reminds me 12:53:39 is :little-endian part of the cffi documented functionality? 12:53:53 stassats: possibly, but not with my knowledge of the internals. As I'd like to do some code, I'm going to try to install sbcl from the overlay first (still can't believe I'm the only one) 12:53:55 (so we can create an image with xcvb, then add appropriate magic on top) 12:53:59 Xof: it's in trivial-features 12:54:19 Xof: badly documented in trivial-features 12:54:22 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:54:22 tcr: how comes what? 12:54:39 the beastiness 12:54:45 of cl-launch? 12:54:48 yea 12:54:56 well, each option doubles the number of test cases 12:55:16 plus you have to work with M implementations and N shells 12:55:45 luis: ok, does it have to be? 12:56:11 Xof: badly documented? or in *features*? 12:56:13 luis: what's :cconv ? 12:56:23 fe[nl]ix: calling convention 12:56:24 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:56:29 if you insert a feature at the wrong place, it will work for the one test case you chose, and break miserably otherwise 12:56:33 luis: in *features* 12:56:45 as that symbol precisely 12:57:07 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 12:57:07 (I ask because it breaks the clx build, because of a comedy of hilarity) 12:57:18 interesting. 12:57:26 remember that lisp evaluation happens in two conceptual stages (building, running) that may or may not be the same time, that may or may not be separated by a stage of having created and moved around a wrapper shell script. 12:57:38 (or a standalone executable) 12:58:15 Xof: well, I'm open to alternative suggestions. Why does it break CLX? 12:58:21 Xof: it's used in quite a lot of places(babel,cffi,iolib) 12:58:41 then again, there are weird bugs like ECL not working unless the fasl cache is clean -- maybe because there's bad punning of "foo.o" between foo.lisp and foo.asd 12:58:45 luis: because there is ancient code that dispatches off :little-endian 12:58:52 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:58:57 that only gets compiled in if some user has loaded trivial-features before 12:59:10 I would advocate putting your features in your own package 12:59:12 stassats: I'll be a pita if 1.0.29 doesn't solve the issue 12:59:32 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 12:59:51 (I'll also eventually get round to fixing clx, of course; key word: "eventually") 13:00:03 Xof: yeah. The grand plan is to convince implementors to export those and get rid of trivial-features altogether. 13:00:16 madnificent: you might want to try 1.0.30, it's almost there 13:00:17 some progress has been made in that direction. :-) 13:00:34 really? 13:01:31 SBCL doesn't export :unix on windows anymore. And ECL started exporting something new, I don't remember what. Baby steps! 13:05:52 -!- Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@84.166.61.124] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:06:50 fiveop [n=fiveop@g230013102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:08:03 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:08:43 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 13:08:56 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["A way a lone a last a loved a long the..."] 13:09:01 ahem -- has anyone tried XCVB? Has any feedback on it? 13:09:59 LiamH [n=none@208.72.159.207] has joined #lisp 13:10:16 stassats: any special new stuff? it isn't listed on the site yet :) 13:10:32 Fare: no. I do wonder how it will evolve now that mudballs is gone 13:11:45 mudballs is gone? 13:12:07 madnificent: http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/sbcl.git?a=blob;f=NEWS 13:12:10 sean ross (I think) was the main dev, and he is getting out of it 13:12:15 Xof: anyway, while I might agree that trivial-features' beahviour is iffy (I have read your *features* paper :-), I'm inclined to say blame all of it on CLX. :-) 13:12:47 -!- quek [n=read_eva@210.253.202.182] has left #lisp 13:14:09 I still don't understand why mudballs had to provide its one sysdef thingie... :-/ 13:14:39 is it much different from asdf? 13:14:57 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 13:14:57 Superficially it looks very much the same. 13:15:23 mudballs is gone? 13:15:31 stassats: same capabilities(more or less), but gratuitously different syntax 13:16:01 *Xach* blogs about it, since he thought everyone heard this news already 13:16:30 mudballs had one good thing: using compile-time rather than read-time conditionals for conditional systems 13:16:37 xcvb copied that from it 13:16:42 mudballs isn't necessarily gone... but it is likely to be gone. It hasn't reached enough momentum to easily find a new developer that's willing to devote his time on it 13:16:44 (with different syntax) 13:16:48 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 13:17:21 -!- jstrane [i=jstrane@125.133.37.80] has quit ["  ."] 13:17:24 XCVB will also standardize generated files and data dependencies -- I wish asdf would do as much 13:17:48 There are only a few things in the Lisp world that attracted more than one active developer 13:17:55 commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 13:18:10 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:19:20 "one active developer should be enough for every project." :-) 13:19:21 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:19:51 tcr: we're all too stubborn 13:20:04 well, that would simplify some things, but make others impossible 13:20:46 clearly we need MORE MINIONs 13:20:52 minion: shant 13:20:54 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``shant''. 13:20:57 minion: chant 13:20:58 MORE MINION 13:21:06 hehe 13:21:14 go minion :) 13:22:48 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-67.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:23:05 "CL, the language for rugged individualist programmers" 13:23:20 "CL, designed in the 80s" 13:24:07 (re http://xach.livejournal.com/155300.html) 13:24:28 "If you give someone Fortran, he has Fortran. If you give someone Lisp, he has any language he pleases." -- Guy L. Steele Jr. (But if it's Common Lisp, you cannot have your language please anyone else. -- Faré) 13:24:54 segv [n=mb@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:24:56 TDT [i=dthole@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 13:26:02 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 13:26:06 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:11 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:26:28 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:05 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 13:27:51 -!- commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:27:54 manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has joined #lisp 13:28:15 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:28:25 manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has joined #lisp 13:28:44 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:28:54 manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has joined #lisp 13:29:00 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 13:29:13 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:29:20 kpreid [n=kpreid@67.249.58.190] has joined #lisp 13:30:11 manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has joined #lisp 13:30:31 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:30:42 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.177.22] has quit [] 13:33:09 Is it possible for the CHAR-CODE of ASCII characters to change across implementations? 13:33:19 Jabberwock [n=jens@193.174.12.194] has joined #lisp 13:33:33 (I just realized that it doesn't really matter to me, but still curious...) 13:33:40 Captain_Thunder: unlikely 13:33:58 the spec makes some sort of guarantees on that, doesn't it? 13:34:17 It just says "An implementation using ASCII might return the following values: " 13:34:52 but implementation may use EBCDIC 13:35:09 We want to always code for maximum portability ;) 13:35:34 then go for cl-unicode :) 13:35:40 These days, you should check whether and how your implementation supports Unicode (as opposed to weird 8 bit stuff), not so much whether and how it supports ASCII (as opposed to EBCDIC). 13:35:56 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:36:05 it's pretty unlikely that you'll actually come across a non-ascii platform 13:36:16 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 13:36:17 I know. 13:36:18 (is any modern cl impl available for any non-ascii platform?) 13:36:43 one could be written any day! 13:36:46 i don't know about that, but i vaguely remember a MacRoman vs Latin1 issue... 13:36:58 rsynnott, I'm sure you can find an EBCDIC CL from IBM if you ask nicely. 13:37:18 I wish Edi would stop consistently invalidating all of my hard work with his cool libraries :( 13:37:25 *rsynnott* wonders how unicode works on an ebcdic system; do applications just use normal unicode, or some terrifying hybrid? :) 13:37:45 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:37:47 Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@84.166.61.124] has joined #lisp 13:37:51 Xach: yep, such things become a problem if you're not using unicode but are using >127 code points 13:38:07 (in Windows, you also get Fun With Codepages there :) ) 13:38:14 rsynnott, there's a 1-to-1 mapping from EBCDIC to latin1. Now consider all your bytes as latin1, use this mapping. Then do as if they were bytes encoding UTF-8... 13:38:40 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:39:29 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:39:49 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:39:51 *rsynnott* fondly remembers the brand new codepage that MS brought out to support the euro symbol in about 1999 13:40:04 willb [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 13:40:12 at that point you'd wonder why they didn't just tell developers to use unicode if they wanted euro symbols... 13:40:15 ejs [n=eugen@33-13-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:22 davazp [n=user@79.153.148.56] has joined #lisp 13:40:27 caused total chaos, of course 13:40:31 Fare: but isn't the NEL character often used in EBCDIC environments? And that is not encodable as a single UTF-8 byte. So UTF-EBCDIC takes a different approach. 13:41:24 *rsynnott* looks at UTF-EBCDOC, wishes he hadn't 13:41:38 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:43:53 rsynnott: did you mean UTF-EBCDIC?? 13:43:56 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:44:32 I did :) 13:44:39 (oops, doc) 13:44:47 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:44:55 Is there an opposite of CHAR-CODE, as in, takes an integer and gives a character? 13:44:57 chaos is good -- it's job safety for programmers 13:45:05 clhs code-char 13:45:05 code-char ? 13:45:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_code_c.htm 13:45:27 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 13:45:34 rsynnott: Babel supports EBCDIC, though not UTF-EBCDIC (yet!) 13:45:40 Thank you :) 13:45:54 SBCL has some support for EBCDIC too, streams-only IIRC. 13:45:55 luis: scandal! PoS software! 13:46:03 luis: doesn't look like there's that much call for UTF-EBCDIC, even on traditionally EBCDIC-y platforms 13:46:18 Fare: I pity the programmers who actually believe that chaos is safety 13:46:25 luis: does babel support dos/windows codepages? :) 13:46:58 *rsynnott* has only ever used it for utf-16 and -32 stuff for interacting with wxwidgets 13:47:25 rsynnott: one, I think. And there's a patch for a second in the mailing list. Are you questioning the developer's screwed priorities? :-) 13:47:35 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 13:47:49 no, no, I don't see any compelling need to support the horrible old codepages either :) 13:48:11 (I'm sure some people need them, but in practice probably few enough that they'd be better do it themselves) 13:48:44 I've tried to hook Babel into iconv or ICU but I'm stuck trying to figure out which one sucks less. 13:49:53 luis: as in use iconv via FFI? 13:50:00 Good afternoon. 13:50:44 ICU applies the awesome "let's attach the major and minor version numbers to every single function" idea. OTOH, iconv's error handling sucks pretty badly. 13:50:49 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:51:05 s/function/function name/ 13:51:08 as in the version numbers are in the function NAMES? 13:51:09 ah 13:51:10 rsynnott: yes. 13:51:11 yuk 13:51:14 never seen that before 13:51:50 this sounded like a great idea for all of 0.3 seconds. 13:51:56 strictly-from-hunger-ian-notation. 13:52:09 authors must have written ICU very quickly (: 13:52:28 presumably the idea is that you get one version and never ever even think of changing 13:52:34 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 13:52:44 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:52:54 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 13:53:09 *rsynnott* knows libraries like that, but it's usually because of unplanned broken compatibility, not because it was deliberately designed to make it impractical to change minor version number... 13:53:23 luis: what does it do for nightly builds? :) 13:53:24 jmbr [n=jmbr@41.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:53:34 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 13:53:53 is that unicode version number, maybe? 13:53:55 Anyway, it can be disabled through some build flag, but for some reason Debian doesn't take advantage of that. 13:54:00 because there it would make a bit of sense 13:54:11 oh no, it's the library's version. 13:54:38 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 13:54:45 redline6561 [n=redline@71.56.34.130] has joined #lisp 13:55:01 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:55:14 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 13:55:20 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.203.77.110] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:56:27 nm -D /usr/lib/libicuuc.so.38.1 | grep ucnv_open --> ucnv_open_3_8 13:56:46 isismelting1 [n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:14 if you replace all #\newline in a string with #\space & you end up with double-spaces there, what have you done wrong? 13:57:36 spaces before newlines? 13:57:47 unfortunately no 13:58:02 you know how there is often a \n as well as a \r in things? 13:58:08 is it something like that? 13:58:24 oh my lord it's a double-spaced document and i'm stupid. 13:58:24 sorry. 13:59:01 \r would be #\Return 13:59:02 heh 13:59:13 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-144-159.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 14:00:04 i've been up too late resisting starting my php wiki over in lisp 14:00:13 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 14:00:19 there are already wikis in lisp 14:00:26 why must people produce endless wikis? :S 14:00:49 rsynnott -- usually because they can't find them, i would guess, because i couldn't 14:00:54 link me to some? 14:01:25 ( i love how this channel constantly disapproves of whatever i'm doing -- makes me feel young ) 14:02:16 hah 14:02:17 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:02:28 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@120.28.131.253] has left #lisp 14:02:45 googling for "common lisp wiki engine" could help 14:02:51 minion: wiki? 14:02:52 wiki: “Wiki” is a class of collaborative hypertext authoring systems. http://www.cliki.net/wiki 14:03:20 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:03:49 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 14:04:28 a wiki is pretty much three things - a viewer, an editor & a file-creator/saver/backerupper 14:04:30 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 14:04:41 why can't i find a SUPER-simple one already made? 14:05:01 in which direction do you want simplicity? 14:05:39 i don't want user accounts or tight security at ALL 14:05:54 no features like "dicussion" pages -- those can be made manually 14:05:56 cliki then? 14:06:24 i like cliki, but i kind of have to use scripted lisp right now 14:06:30 i can't do that with cliki can i? 14:06:34 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-148-118.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:06:51 you will soon feel young again 14:07:01 jyujin [n=mdeining@82.113.121.139] has joined #lisp 14:07:15 xach - sounds wonderful 14:08:11 isismelting1: i can't make any sense from your question 14:08:17 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:09:40 ALIW looks nice 14:09:46 stassats - do i need a lisp webserver in order to install cliki on my webspace? is that question incorrect? 14:10:24 you need, yes 14:10:56 danlei [n=user@217.226.244.252] has joined #lisp 14:11:11 luis: wait -- that's version numbers for the function *interface* or the function itself? 14:11:21 stassats - is there a lisp webserver i can install on a server where i don't have root but do have a shell? 14:11:21 i.e. if they fix a bug, do they change the name? 14:11:33 or only if they change the documented semantics? 14:11:34 isismelting1: yes 14:11:50 pretty much all lisp webserver can do that 14:11:55 isismelting1, plenty of them, as long as you don't try to bind port 80 14:12:01 s/webserver/webservers/ 14:12:07 demmel [n=demmel@a155.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:12:13 s/ ? 14:12:13 port 80 is priviledged 14:12:20 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:12:26 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Success] 14:12:29 that said, if your sysadmin loves you, he'll setup a reverse proxy or something for you 14:12:58 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:12:59 he probably hates me - i keep having to break out of his jailshell 14:13:19 Rob Warnock has written about connecting cgi scripts to long-running lisp servers. 14:13:24 and add myself to the g++ group so i can compile stuff -- i always email him when i do it & tell him how 14:13:32 i just thought he'd be interested 14:14:00 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 14:15:26 anyway i would like to get a lisp webserver running on this server -- is there one i will be able to install and set up without five more years of study, or is this a difficult thing 14:15:27 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@cpe-75-81-202-25.we.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:40 minion: hunchentoot? 14:15:40 hunchentoot: Hunchentoot is a web server written in Common Lisp and at the same time a toolkit for building dynamic websites. http://www.cliki.net/hunchentoot 14:15:42 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 14:16:41 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:18:05 Fare: all functions in that .so have a _3_8 postfix. Does that answer your question? :) 14:21:24 stassats - i realize i may be being lazy - but is there an easy way to install hunchentoot? from what i can find, it looks like i have to deal with 10 or so libraries i've never heard of etc -- which is somewhat overwhelming 14:21:35 i did however get sbcl running on my server 14:21:47 minion: please tell isismelting1 about clbuild 14:21:48 so i think that means i have asdf-install...is that relevant? 14:21:48 isismelting1: look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 14:22:24 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-149-88.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:22:31 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:23:11 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 14:23:12 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 14:23:15 I understand that no-one wants to work on it -- but is anyone interested in *using* XCVB when it has reached some feature level? 14:23:27 (and if so, what feature level) 14:23:39 (mostly-drop-in-replacement for asdf?) 14:24:00 Fare: to be honest, ASDF suits my modest needs. 14:24:56 luis: ok -- but what would make you willing to consider switching? 14:25:04 last beginner question - how would one go about using asdf to install a package, say hunchentoot, if they're looking at a SBCL interpreter? 14:25:24 isismelting1: (require 'asdf) is the first step 14:25:49 isismelting1: well, asdf is not really about installing new software. it's about compiling and loading software you have downloaded already. 14:25:56 isismelting1, (require :asdf) (pushnew "/path/to/your/systems/" asdf:*central-registry* :test 'equal) (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :hunchentoot) 14:26:08 asdf-install downloads new software. so do things like clbuild. 14:26:33 are asdf-install & clbuild pretty equally-supported rivals? 14:26:43 clbuild is better imo 14:26:48 surely either does some things the other can't & versa vise but they seem to be similar. 14:26:59 their goals are entirely different 14:27:17 "welcome to a maze of twisty little pathways, all different" 14:27:25 asdf-install was meant to give you access to released cl software; turns out that people don't release cl software that often because it's hard 14:27:38 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-144-159.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 14:27:40 antifuchs, do you have any views on ADG, these days? 14:27:55 clbuild gives you the state of the lisp world the moment you check it out; so things may break, but you get the latest and greatest versions of everything 14:28:02 Fare: I still think it is a work of genius (-: 14:28:04 certainly the latest. 14:28:17 but haven't been able to work on it at all lately )-: 14:28:59 so if there are people using it, pls make somebody BFDL of the ADG project. 14:29:11 BDFL too? 14:29:54 erm. 14:30:17 a BDFL who's benevolent for as long as dictatorly alive. 14:30:19 -!- cracki [n=cracki@43-055.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:30:31 Big F*ing Deal Maker 14:30:37 msteele added some semi-portable defstruct support to it; he also finds that define-symbol-alias and associated machinery are unused 14:30:49 no argument about ADG being a work of genius 14:31:13 is it OK to junk define-symbol-alias, or did you have some great projects for it? 14:31:19 I think that's a fair point: I think I put in dsa before I realized that some stuff was better to do in the macroexpansion itself 14:31:22 minion: ADG? 14:31:22 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``ADG''. 14:31:23 Fare: I'm interested in using xcvb. 14:31:26 nope, don't think so 14:31:26 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@91.23.239.173] has joined #lisp 14:31:35 go ahead and murder it (: 14:31:35 luis: asdf-dependency-grovel 14:31:38 antifuchs, you may or may not want to merge the git for ADG under the xcvb project 14:31:42 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:31:55 once I find the time to review your changes, I will (: 14:32:20 poor innocent function that never did anything wrong to anyone! 14:32:22 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 14:32:31 xcvb seems to be required if a large company wants to use CL for development. 14:32:49 Guest49718, it's not the size of the company -- it's the size of the code base :) 14:32:51 Guest49718: empiric evidence shows otherwise. 14:33:52 redline6561 pasted "unbelievable errors" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83175 14:34:17 even a small consulting company like mine wouldn't have survived for long without ADG! 14:34:24 what does BFDL mean? 14:34:38 it's a typo for BDFL 14:34:45 benevolent dictator for life (: 14:34:47 So...regardless of the stupidity of starting to implement a naive open-addressed hash-table in lisp, i cannot fathom why the pasted code generates a mountain of errors. i'm sure i'm being foolish, any ideas? 14:35:15 for extra-quick help, paste the errors too. 14:35:16 "(Typecheck for int?)" is not likely to work 14:35:20 -!- ASau [n=user@host215-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 14:35:27 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:28 the errors are so unbelievable that lisppaste won't accept them 14:35:54 long time no see, jsnell 14:36:15 well, it exceeded the sb-kernel:maximum-error-depth and leaves a quite long trace...but as you wish. 14:37:00 redline6561: Xof's eagle eyes spied a problem. 14:37:29 quite. was on vacation first, and now lukego is visiting here, so not much time for pithy oneliners on #lisp 14:37:40 Guest49718, ITA has survived w/o XCVB so far, and would survive without it. I still think it's a good idea, though, that will simplify our life down the line. 14:37:41 redline6561: I get a nice error during macroexpansion, with or without SLIME. 14:38:36 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:43 redline6561: shouldn't data, key-count and delete-count be bracketed? 14:38:51 xof: you are correct but that is commented. i either mispasted or lisppaste ate it. 14:39:12 tell you what: why don't you paste _exactly_ what you're doing, rather than have us guess? 14:39:41 drafael: yes. xof: thank you. 14:39:42 redline6561: and the arguments to initialize-instance should be ((hash-open hash-open) &key) 14:39:46 hash-open doesn't look like the right specializer 14:39:53 Fare: What's the state of XCVB development? 14:40:17 stassats: drafael: really? oh. still an idiot. thank you. 14:40:20 drafael: check the syntax for defclass. 14:40:41 drafael is wrong about data, keycount and friends but right about the initialize-instance specializer 14:40:59 Guest49718, it's being actively developed. It's already working and we've converted semi-automatically all the dependencies of qres (42 popular opensource CL libraries) 14:41:00 xof: thank you. i did think you could avoid bracketing in that case. 14:41:07 luis: see /usr/include/unicode/urename.h 14:41:08 oh, really? is the bracketing optional in the class then? good to know 14:41:29 drafael: not all that common, from what i've read, but acceptable syntax 14:41:33 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has quit [] 14:41:34 commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 14:41:37 it includes a simple asdf-to-xcvb converter (doesn't handle any of the fancy stuff - also, uses ADG which might bork on some "clever" uses of defconstant) 14:41:37 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:41:48 ah, I see 14:42:03 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 14:42:18 Fare: I'll have to give it a try on my own projects. 14:42:50 synic [n=squish@pdpc/supporter/student/synic] has joined #lisp 14:42:57 I am also maintaining a list of TODO tasks, some easy, some hard, that are necessary before XCVB may fully replace ASDF. 14:43:02 (wink wink) 14:43:10 -!- isismelting1 [n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 14:43:21 blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has joined #lisp 14:43:28 Is there a popular gui toolkit available for common lisp? 14:43:52 ... mcclim? 14:43:54 synic, too many of them -- none of them perfectly debugged, ported and documented. 14:44:06 I see some prerelease gtk2 bindings and something called cello.. 14:44:06 commonqt looks promising. 14:44:14 synic: mcclim? there's cl-gtk if you feel like installing from git. there may be a cl-build...dunno. 14:44:26 synic: capi seems pretty nice to me, and has been used for real commercial applications. 14:44:31 Ltk also. 14:44:40 haha, ok, so there are some options 14:44:43 thanks :) 14:44:52 synic: excuse me. i meant cl-gtk2: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-gtk2/index.html 14:45:01 Guest49718, I'm eager for feedback. I reckon that documentation isn't extensive enough, and integration with Makefile still too painful (though examples are provided) 14:45:32 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:46:08 Fare: have you put up a public repo for xcvb? 14:46:20 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 14:46:27 Fade: see http://common-lisp.net/gitweb 14:46:28 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host131-218-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 14:46:30 Fade, yes -- a git repo you can pull 14:46:46 ahh. thanks 14:46:48 actually, you may have to pull the git repos from our dependencies, too 14:47:01 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@41.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Success] 14:47:09 we had to patch closer-mop, cl-launch and ADG 14:48:09 when did c-l.net get gitweb? :) 14:49:14 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@91.23.239.173] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:49:18 also, xcvb itself is much slower than I'd like -- I suspect (DIRECTORY ".../**/BUILD.lisp") is to blame, but would have to profile before I swear it is. 14:49:51 Fade, Fare: thanks for reminding me that I need new glasses. :-/ 14:49:57 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 14:50:01 Fade: remember me talking about it on #tech.coop with drewc ? even bragged about it 14:50:23 I thought that was a religious discussion, so I may not have actually been paying much attention. :) 14:50:44 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 14:50:57 nice feature, though. for sure. 14:51:01 :-O 14:51:07 -!- commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:51:14 Guest49718, the only backend at this point is the Makefile backend. An ASDF backend and/or an in-memory backend would be nice. 14:51:24 drafael: the specializer in initialize-instance seemed to fix the problems once I reloaded SLIME. why must I pass (hash-open hash-open) if you don't mind my asking? 14:51:26 damn it. I joked before I coffeed. :) 14:51:31 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 14:51:33 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 14:51:39 fe[nl]ix: you should brag more in this channel :P 14:51:45 clhs defmethod 14:51:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defmet.htm 14:52:06 redline6561: (variable-name specializer) 14:52:09 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Client Quit] 14:52:24 minion: tell redline6561 about keene 14:52:25 redline6561: look at keene: "Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS" by Sonya E Keene. http://www.cliki.net/keene 14:52:28 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:52:40 drafael: aha. thanks very much. 14:52:57 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17EFAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:08 Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 14:53:09 stassats: may just have to pick that up. thank you. 14:53:46 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@71.56.34.130] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:53:48 lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-31-160.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:13 *madnificent* starts to realize that top's stats are way off 15:01:06 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:02:56 saikat_ [n=saikat@71.163.70.52] has joined #lisp 15:03:07 luis: ping 15:05:35 Interesting. (make-array 1000 :element-type nil) will actually only occupy 2 words. 15:05:42 fe[nl]ix: pong 15:06:58 luis: is it ok to use strings to name foreign libraries ? 15:07:00 luis: getting or setting an element in such an array would really mess with the compiler, so we have to treat them as special cases anyway. 15:07:15 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:16 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 15:07:59 fe[nl]ix: I like symbols better. 15:09:01 luis: in order to completely handle re-loading of libraries ourselves, we need to deal with unnamed libraries 15:09:11 the ones loaded simply using cffi:load-foreign-library 15:09:15 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 15:09:27 so I need to add those too to *foreign-libraries* 15:09:48 what name do I give them ? the string passed to cffi:load-foreign-library seems a good idea 15:10:30 -!- ejs [n=eugen@33-13-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:11:05 manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has joined #lisp 15:11:27 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:11:37 manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has joined #lisp 15:11:56 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:12:57 manic12_ [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:57 fe[nl]ix: my first instinct is to not support that case. 15:13:33 fe[nl]ix: otherwise interning that string should work. 15:13:51 luis: but we must, otherwise we might as well unexport load-foreign-library 15:13:51 -!- manic12_ [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 15:13:54 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 15:14:46 any idea, why SB-CLTL2:AUGMENT-ENVIRONMENT is undefined? 15:14:49 just give them names like #:anonymous-library-X then 15:15:00 in a fairly recent sbcl 15:15:03 demmel: there was recent discussion on the sbcl mailing list 15:15:13 demmel: because it's not implemented? 15:15:17 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has joined #lisp 15:15:37 i'll have a look 15:15:59 pkhuong: then mabe the manual should say that 15:16:06 demmel: i've posted patches to the sbcl mailing list to define it 15:16:34 smoofra: are they likely to be included soon? 15:16:41 -!- fvw is now known as fvwm 15:16:43 i hope so :/ 15:16:57 ;) 15:17:10 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 15:17:19 nikodemus sounded positive on the last round, but i haven't heard from him about the latest version of the patch series 15:17:56 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:18:07 -!- fvwm is now known as fvw 15:18:18 dumb noob question. I've installed emacs and slime. How do I get to the CL-USER> prompt? 15:18:19 salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has joined #lisp 15:18:20 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:26 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 15:18:29 M-x slime 15:18:37 thanks 15:19:07 demmel: grep doesn't show any mention of augment-environment in the manual. 15:19:40 smoofra: after the release, probably. 15:19:41 phkuoung: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Extensions.html 15:19:46 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:20:00 demmel: no mention of augment-environment. 15:20:15 manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has joined #lisp 15:20:17 pkhuong: sb-cltl2 module provides compiler-let and environment access functionality described in Common Lisp The Language, 2nd Edition which were removed from the language during the ANSI standardization process. 15:20:37 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:20:47 manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has joined #lisp 15:21:14 demmel: right. the functionality, including specifically compiler-let, is in CLTL2 \ ANSI-CL. 15:22:01 pkhuong: I read it to include all environment access functionality described in CLTL2, but never mind. 15:22:08 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 15:22:16 xan [n=xan@51.Red-83-61-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:56 -!- lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-31-160.dynamic.amis.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:23:25 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:23:34 ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:35 manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has joined #lisp 15:23:54 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:24:04 demmel: http://elder-gods.org/~larry/repos/sbcl branch 'cltl2' if you want to play with it 15:24:04 manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has joined #lisp 15:24:23 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:24:33 manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has joined #lisp 15:24:50 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-134-194.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:24:52 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:25:01 cheers 15:25:02 manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has joined #lisp 15:25:21 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:25:31 manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has joined #lisp 15:25:50 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:26:00 manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has joined #lisp 15:26:19 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:26:29 manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has joined #lisp 15:26:48 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:27:06 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.249.72] has joined #lisp 15:27:32 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:27:38 commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 15:27:53 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:28:48 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-135-165.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Success] 15:28:53 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:29:53 -!- jleija [n=jleija@24.214.122.46] has quit ["leaving"] 15:31:40 ok, I'm on ubuntu. I've run "apt-get install emacs slime clisp", I run emacs, press M-x slime, and it says "searching for program: no such file or directory, lisp" 15:31:43 what am I missing? 15:31:54 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-114.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:31:58 synic: you haven't configured slime yet. 15:32:18 I see 15:32:29 the metaanswer is probably: "use clbuild" 15:32:33 minion: tell synic about clbuild 15:32:34 synic: please see clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 15:32:43 k 15:33:26 the metametaanswer is: "use Java" 15:34:21 Fare: now you're mean 15:34:56 s/mean/funny 15:34:58 ah, there it goes 15:35:07 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17EFAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:35:11 Drakeson [n=user@76-10-137-169.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:38 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-238-188.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 15:36:28 fe[nl]ix: pong 15:36:48 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 15:37:19 -!- commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:37:36 garg. the cl-yacc repo is offline. :P 15:37:37 hefner: you said that yesterday's patch was ok for you. why is that ? it doesn't work here :D 15:37:44 I'm working on a much better patch 15:37:49 anywsy 15:38:09 Fade: http://common-lisp.net/~sionescu/cl-yacc/ 15:38:20 fe[nl]ix: doesn't work how? I apply is, I call the function, I get the list of the single wrapper object. 15:38:30 thanks fe[nl]ix 15:39:02 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 15:39:51 hefner: I saved an image, then copied it with the .so somewhere else, deleted the fasls and tried to start the image but it didn't find the .so 15:41:10 fe[nl]ix: you probably have to close it and reopen it from somewhere in the linker search path, like I mentioned yesterday. if you look at sb-sys:*shared-objects* and see an absolute path in there, it isn't going to work. 15:41:32 hefner: exactly 15:41:52 the I did this, the place I copied them to was already in LD_LIBRARY_PATH before I started SBCL 15:42:14 xan_ [n=xan@94.Red-81-43-97.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:44 hefner: re BX-FFT, do you think you could suggest a couple typical use cases to build a performance test suite? 15:44:08 hefner: lol. I used LD_RUN_PATH 15:44:32 Muld [n=wr23@88-196-35-54-dsl.noe.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 15:44:33 anybody here compiled sbcl on linux mac ppc w/ (enable :alien-callbacks) and run into trouble with tzname stub? 15:44:38 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.78.222] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:45:28 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:45:59 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 15:46:15 fail at compile of runtime: relocation truncated to fit: R_PPC_REL24 against symbol `tzname@@GLIBC_2.0' defined 15:46:28 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 15:46:34 got around it by removing entry in ldso-stubs.lisp 15:47:37 -!- rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:47:59 pkhuong: discrete convolution by overlap-add. perhaps 15:47:59 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.232] has quit ["leaving"] 15:48:13 kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@76.119.215.57] has joined #lisp 15:48:24 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:50:02 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 15:51:11 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 15:51:29 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:51:58 xan__ [n=xan@68.Red-80-36-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:12 commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 15:55:19 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:57:03 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 15:58:57 pkhuong: lowpass filter? 15:59:40 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@71.163.70.52] has quit [] 16:00:11 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-238-188.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:00:18 Fare: I will give XCVB a try and will send you comments. 16:00:27 Fare: thanks for the update 16:00:27 that's really generic re the FFT/IFFT part, though. I was more trying to get an idea of interesting and useful sizes (1D for now, 2D later). Real VS complex would probably be fun to do later on. 16:00:41 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:00:54 Guest49718, if you can't make it past the limited docs, tell me what confuses you -- that's precious feedback, too 16:00:56 ah, ok. i didn't understand what you're looking for 16:01:20 salex: until BX-FFT is extended to implement higher level transforms that is (: 16:01:24 -!- xan_ [n=xan@94.Red-81-43-97.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:03:05 ah. i'm not familiar with it at all 16:04:23 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:05:21 *splittist* suspects this is not the XCVB video he was hoping for... 16:05:26 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04ceFZ4sPq8 16:06:25 joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 16:06:43 -!- demmel [n=demmel@a155.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 16:07:03 splittist: xcvb knocked asdf out? 16:07:27 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:08:24 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-123-234.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:09:11 Fare certainly looks different with gloves on... 16:09:21 -!- xan [n=xan@51.Red-83-61-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:09:52 splittist, you've touched me with gloves on? How are you, Dr Surgeon? 16:10:09 luis: wouldn't it be better to signal an error(not a warning) for unknown foreign-library options ? 16:11:53 Fare: that would be Mr Surgeon. But I don't think I was your corner-man... (More seriously, you might want to tweak the 'We hope to have a complete release with example and documentation ready for general use by the end of June 2009.' sentence in README.rest) 16:13:01 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:14:20 oops. 16:14:31 Well, we kind of have something usable now. 16:14:46 Though I probably wouldn't call it a release until we release it indeed 16:14:46 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17EFAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:48 thanks 16:15:06 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-86-153.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["leaving"] 16:15:15 demmel [n=demmel@a080.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 16:17:40 -!- xan__ [n=xan@68.Red-80-36-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:17:56 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:17:59 grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:18:03 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:18:13 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-238-188.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 16:18:49 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:19:37 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:19:41 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:19:55 jmbr [n=jmbr@41.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:23:28 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:03 abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@51.Red-83-61-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:01 -!- abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@51.Red-83-61-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:29:12 abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@204.Red-88-27-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:54 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:41:52 Is there a loop keyword that accepts cycling through both list and sequence? 16:42:17 a list is a sequence 16:42:19 -!- demmel [n=demmel@a080.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:42:49 leo2007: don't loop, iterate. 16:43:13 you meant both list and vector? then no 16:44:55 hum. Indeed, searching the search path takes almost 4 seconds. Doing the actual xcvb work takes under .1 second. Sigh. 16:46:28 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:46:30 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:46:41 Has iterate got the same functionality as loop with just a different syntax? Or are the some fundamentally different concepts? 16:46:48 Fare: is xcvb available somewhere? 16:46:49 is there an easy way to convert list to vector 16:46:58 leo2007: coerce is one way. 16:47:03 nice 16:47:05 guaqua: you can git clone it 16:47:28 i was under the impression it was vaporware 16:47:44 will osicat's or iolib's walk-directory make xcvb suck less? 16:47:46 xcvb? 16:47:54 or should I run-program a find ? 16:48:08 antoszka: it's extensible. also has some nice built it stuff like indirect max/min 16:48:08 Fare: I'd suggest find 16:48:40 deafmacro [n=user@59.92.192.160] has joined #lisp 16:49:05 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@198.Red-80-59-108.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:19 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:41 salex: thx 16:50:18 antoszka: with the ancillary side detriment that it's not part of CL 16:50:37 yet another dependency. 16:50:39 -!- abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@204.Red-88-27-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:41 time find /home/fare/fare/lisp /home/fare/cl /home/fare/.local/share/common-lisp/source -type f -name BUILD.lisp ==> 0.07s user 0.16s system 83% cpu 0.275 total 16:51:16 that's what I call room for improvement. 16:51:25 Fade: Right. But from what I'm learning I see there's so much that's not part of ANSI CL, that it stops being much of a problem really. 16:51:47 I suppose that DIRECTORY is spending all its time truenaming pathnames 50 times over. 16:51:58 antoszka/Fare: right. it's probably objectively better than loop, but has the cost of being non-standard. And it's not enough of an improvement to make that a non-issue 16:52:00 Fare: always benchmark FS stuff with a cold cache: echo 2 > /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches (as root) 16:52:29 also beware it may be more difficult for the compiler to generate really optimized code, as it may have some known tricks for loop. 16:52:45 but that usually doesn't matter 16:52:55 also note that drop_caches doesn't always work if programs have the files open. 16:53:10 fe[nl]ix, for a 20* perf degradation, we're well past that fine benchmarking issue 16:53:13 foom: no? good to know 16:53:20 probably doesn't matter here but that's a big PITA for a benchmark I run 16:53:30 I need to fill up all memory instead. :( 16:54:02 foom: how hard can that be ? 16:54:02 :D 16:55:57 *Fare* seriously considers run-program of find as an alternative to (directory ...**/BUILD.lisp...) 16:56:25 fe[nl]ix, the hard part is not filling up the memory, but surviving the event. 16:56:34 -!- Jabberwock [n=jens@193.174.12.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:57:07 lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:54 Fare: I'd suggest that xcvb used *no* external deps at all: copy closer and ADG and put them into your package 16:59:01 fe[nl]ix, I'm told git has some mechanism for externals, but I've never used it. 16:59:28 I suppose I could include targets in xcvb's Makefile to pull from relevant versions of dependencies 16:59:32 Fare: I mean you should "fork" them 16:59:40 I already forked them 17:00:38 ok, got to prepare for a meeting... 17:01:07 but yes, for a source code release, I'll pack all dependencies in a tarball 17:04:01 -!- silenius [n=jl@yath1870.zar.cronon.NET] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:05:37 how do you redirect say an output from (list-all-packages) to a file ? 17:05:37 sepult, memo from stassats: "On threaded platforms only a single thread may remain running after sb-ext:*save-hooks* have run. Applications using multiple threads can be save-lisp-and-die friendly by registering a save-hook that quits any additional threads, and an init-hook that restarts them." from http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Saving-a-Core-Image.html 17:06:15 minion: that's already solved, have a huge image now lol 17:06:16 yes, yes it is 17:06:22 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 17:06:27 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 17:06:52 sepult: list-all-package doesn't print anything. You get to output the return value as you wish. 17:07:19 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:08:14 sepult: (with-open-file (*standard-output* "test.out" :direction :output) (print (list-all-packages))) 17:08:22 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Success] 17:08:36 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@198.Red-80-59-108.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:08:39 serichsen: ok thank you 17:09:02 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@68.Red-80-36-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:26 xan [n=xan@29.Red-83-59-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:16 right it works 17:12:30 -!- davazp [n=user@79.153.148.56] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:12:48 ravster [n=user@69.172.110.86] has joined #lisp 17:12:50 Hello all 17:12:56 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:14:24 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:40 How do I tell my program to not give an end-of-file error? The function is reading from a csv file and placing objects onto an array. 17:15:32 ravster: you can give an optional parameter to read, read-line et al. 17:15:40 clhs read 17:15:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm 17:16:32 fe[nl]ix annotated #83132 "vesion 3" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83132#4 17:16:33 serichsen: thank you. I'll look that up. 17:17:06 luis: can you take a look at 83132#4 ? 17:18:28 *fe[nl]ix* heads home 17:18:29 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:20:50 ravster: you might want to take a look at http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/ 17:20:55 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@68.Red-80-36-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:22:18 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:24:46 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:25:17 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 17:28:51 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@198.Red-80-59-108.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:07 thank you salex, I'll definitely put that in my bookmarks. 17:35:53 -!- deafmacro [n=user@59.92.192.160] has left #lisp 17:36:46 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:52 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 17:38:24 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@198.Red-80-59-108.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:40:46 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 17:42:27 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-30.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:42:48 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@67.249.58.190] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:44:17 -!- commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has quit [] 17:49:11 commmmodo [n=commmmod@208.74.35.107] has joined #lisp 17:49:40 -!- jtxx000 [n=jtxx000@xfpan.gotadsl.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:53:16 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-07c9d63e3587cca6] has joined #lisp 17:56:07 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-07c9d63e3587cca6] has quit [Client Quit] 18:00:19 -!- tobetchi_ [n=tobetchi@p296b5e.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 18:00:51 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-c569055b570f849b] has joined #lisp 18:03:02 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-114.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:04:33 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-71-161-67-50.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:37 lacedaemon [i=lacedaem@151.80.69.120] has joined #lisp 18:05:31 -!- ravster [n=user@69.172.110.86] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:08:44 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@94.Red-81-43-97.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:20 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 18:13:54 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:17:29 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 18:18:56 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 18:19:26 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest54806 18:20:53 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-148-7-32.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:21:11 -!- segv [n=mb@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:22:15 Good evening. 18:23:42 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:43 hey, beach 18:24:03 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@94.Red-81-43-97.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:24:59 hi 18:30:37 the gcl (system::save-system ) examples here are causing a segfault... is there a better way to compile a .lisp into a binary? http://knol.google.com/k/tom-laudeman/hello-world-in-gcl-and-clisp/3kie54vqqsra3/4# 18:32:35 I was wondering: is it worth checking out cl-typesetting, or is it just better to generate TeX files? Anyone ever compare the output? 18:32:52 synic: GCL is not the best idea 18:33:14 The website of cl-typesetting says "output about on the level of TeX". Does that means it uses TeX's hyphenation and spacing algorithms? 18:33:18 stassats: should I just stick with clisp? 18:33:46 -!- Sbidicuda [n=antani@host134-213-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:33:57 minion: executables? 18:33:58 executables: creating executables: Newcomers to Lisp often ask how to "create an executable" from their Lisp program. http://www.cliki.net/creating%20executables 18:34:09 heh, ok 18:34:37 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 18:34:38 clisp is certainly better than gcl 18:34:52 but i like sbcl and ccl more 18:36:02 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A10DB.versanet.de] has quit [Success] 18:36:42 that article's author seems to be rather new to lisp, imho 18:37:56 dangling parenthesis! inexcusable. 18:41:16 francogrex [n=franco@91.179.245.223] has joined #lisp 18:42:44 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Success] 18:42:57 gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 18:43:04 gonzojive pasted "SLIME crash" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83183 18:43:14 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-078-226.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:26 stassats: what was the recent ccl-and-source-location bits about? 18:43:33 s/was/were/ 18:43:50 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.51.25] has joined #lisp 18:43:58 they changed format 18:44:23 dysinger [n=tim@32.178.128.222] has joined #lisp 18:44:24 Sikander: I haven't really looked at Common cl-typesetting, but I would be very surprised if it had an implementation of the TeX linebreaking algorithm. 18:44:34 stassats: does ccl provide form-paths, too? 18:45:02 tcr: i didn't look in depth what were the changes, so i don't know 18:45:02 gonzojive: Probably an encoding error. Consult the manual. (Not the one from the website, the one that's in the doc/ directory) 18:45:21 -!- lacedaemon [i=lacedaem@151.80.69.120] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:45:34 thanks tcr 18:45:50 Sikander: If you want to write a word processor using CLIM, a TeX-inspired linebreaking algorithm, and a Common Lisp-specific font generation system, let me know. I can give you some hints. 18:46:03 gonzojive: search for slime-net-coding-system 18:46:09 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:46:41 *beach* vanishes to spend time with his family. 18:47:08 beach: thanks 18:49:18 Hi, I've pasted a simple code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/83184 18:49:28 I'm using ECL on windows 18:50:16 what's the question? 18:50:37 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:39 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:52:36 I find your regular cross-asking between comp.lang.lisp and here annoying 18:52:55 I also think you should ask your question on the ECL mailing list. 18:53:12 Because there are the people who can give you an informed reply. 18:54:12 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 18:54:14 Has anyone ever successfully used :clipping-region in mcclim? 18:56:58 stassats, the first with declarations is supposed to run faster than the sum-elt2 below 18:57:07 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:17 but in my ecl, there is no difference at all 18:57:44 francogrex: what tcr said 18:58:23 Do declarations guarantee faster code? Isn't that dependent on how the compiler does "stuff"? I know it's expected to run faster... 18:58:25 tcr, you are annoying 18:58:38 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-238-188.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:58:42 if you don't like my posts ot don't care to help, don't answer 18:58:47 just ignore it 18:59:02 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["OK, I will"] 18:59:10 I'm the only one who gave you a helpful response, you fuckhead 18:59:31 and remain civil and polite 18:59:51 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-238-188.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 19:00:09 welcome to the internets 19:00:20 Sikander: No it's not guaranteed. In fact, declarations can make code run slower. 19:00:45 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:46 Well, then it seems clear. tcr is right, ask on the ECL mailing list! 19:00:51 Sikander: For example, SBCL and CMUCL (and ccl?) interpret declaration as assertions, so they insert explicit type checks if not compiled unsafely 19:01:06 -!- Guest54806 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 19:01:28 Sikander: So if you add an declaration in an inner loop, you actually make your code run slower 19:01:58 tcr: Ah, because it asserts each time. So the declaration should be before the loop? 19:01:58 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 19:02:18 tcr: Is there a way (in sbcl) to declare without adding asserts? 19:02:21 Sikander: Yes, SBCL type inference will hopefully be able to do the rest. 19:02:22 one must know great deal of implementations internals in order to know where and when to use declaration 19:02:32 Sikander: Sure, (optimize (safety 0)) 19:02:35 and for ur info, same behavior is also on sbcl 19:02:39 ah 19:02:50 so it's not ecl specific 19:04:29 francogrex: I'm no expert (far from it actually) but doesn't this mean that the specific declare there is a meaningless optimization in this case? Just guessing... 19:05:59 Sikander, maybe, i'm no expert either, saw this in Paul Graham's book 19:06:17 that's why I'm asking here hoping experts would teach 19:06:36 benny` [n=benny@i577A3184.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:06:45 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 19:06:49 and help. What we have unfortunately are "experts" denigrating and insulting! 19:07:30 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 19:07:47 francogrex: I don't think they were that insulting; they initially only pointed you elsewhere 19:08:48 Sikander, it's ok, no grudges 19:09:26 francogrex: I think that maybe since maybe everything is initialised as single floats, the incf is just efficient already? 19:09:35 after all, we're all here because we love lisp 19:09:36 (sorry for all the maybe's) 19:09:56 Well, I don't "love" it yet, I just find it highly interesting... 19:10:10 (at this point at least) 19:10:47 possibly; did u try it the code? 19:10:51 first function runs three times faster for me 19:10:58 francogrex: what is your question? 19:10:59 francogrex: not yet, lemme try 19:11:09 jajcloz [n=jaj@209.91.55.220] has joined #lisp 19:11:19 borism [n=boris@195-50-200-218-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 19:11:59 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.51.25] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:12:09 francogrex: yah, in sbcl, the first one is 3x as fast 19:12:22 It's probably an ecl specific thing 19:12:29 Xach, just wondring why the code with declaration doesn't run faster for me (both ecl and sbcl) 19:12:35 -!- benny` is now known as benny 19:12:46 francogrex: the code with declarations does not run faster for you in sbcl? 19:12:54 mine took i sbcl 1st one: 20.235 seconds of real time 19:13:08 2nd: 22.657 seconds of real time 19:13:12 francogrex: I get 2.8 vs 0.9 seconds (roughly) 19:13:30 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has joined #lisp 19:13:36 so 20.235 against 22.657 is really no improvement 19:13:48 hbock [n=hbock@198.7.232.249] has joined #lisp 19:13:51 francogrex: what kind of computer are you using? 19:13:54 heheh 19:14:11 hmm, well then, makes me wonder about my PC. It's AMD sepron 19:14:32 0.015 vs. 0.045 here 19:14:40 francogrex: how much memory does it have? 19:14:45 stassats: ?! What are you running?! 19:15:09 Sikander: i just reduced size 19:15:20 stassats: ok... :) 19:15:26 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:16:20 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-218-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:16:41 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-194.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:47 .004 vs .0036 with some optimize magic 19:16:51 500 mega, 1.6 GHZ 19:17:15 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 19:17:20 stassats: woowoo, master of optimisation! You changed the "algorithm"? 19:17:32 stassats: or just some compiler hints? 19:17:47 Sikander: no, just (optimize speed (safety 0)) 19:18:00 stassats: ah, ok. Just curious :) 19:18:27 That's actually quite a difference 19:18:58 francogrex: 100000000 single floats won't fit into 500 MB 19:19:17 It seems like you might be measuring your computer's swapping. 19:20:18 feel free to write a followup on comp.lang.lisp saying "never mind guys i already got an answer" without sharing the answer. 19:20:27 heheh 19:20:38 Good form 19:21:29 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-139.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:22:13 stassats, same if i reduce to 1000 . 1000 I got 0.125 versus 0.125 19:22:43 so is my PC that bad that even for... wait, anyone using windows here? 19:22:52 or are u all on linux? 19:23:03 *Sikander* is on linux. 19:23:50 ok i'm on windows XP and using SBCL 1.0.22 19:23:50 probably all on linux... 19:24:01 i think they're all on linux 19:24:08 also, 1.0.23 vs. 1.0.28 makes quite a difference 19:24:20 Ah, sbcl 1.0.29 19:24:41 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:28 i tried on 32-bit arch, 1.0.28.51: 0.011 vs .062, 1.0.23.13: 0.109 vs. 0.77 19:25:29 only diiference between the 2 runs I see is that elt takes 0 bytes consed whoile elt2 15,998,976 bytes consed 19:25:34 stassats: ECL does not even have a specialized array layout for floats. So all floats are possibly boxed. Unlike SBCL. 19:26:14 i will try updating my sbcl 19:26:19 yeah 19:26:49 I see in the changelogs that there were quite some optimisations between your version and the new ones 19:27:10 also, not specifying size in declaration helps in 1.0.23.13 19:27:21 (although, I don't claim to understand internals) 19:27:57 francogrex: ECL does not derive types much for arrays. Juanjo is working on that at the moment. 19:29:23 francogrex: you can look at e.g. the released notes on the sbcl website. I see there's some optimisation wrt array code for instance. Dunno if that's helping 19:29:24 tcr, ok thanks. That's 1 of my problems but I have slowness that is due to windows and my lisp versions 19:29:25 If you want actually helpful advise, I can still just recommend to heed my earlier suggestion. 19:29:53 tcr, the support for ecl on that mainling list is poor to say the least 19:29:58 example: 19:30:28 many times i've asked to write a better source code for ecl that can compile statically without need for ecl 19:30:28 crap! I was hoping for CSI, but all I get is Michael Jackson stuff. 19:30:44 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:30:52 yeah, Michael Jackson was God, didn't you know? 19:30:57 francogrex: did you provide a paycheck? 19:30:57 no answer; So I actually went and did it myself. and sent to the person taking care of ecl 19:30:58 (so I'm back) 19:30:58 My experience is exactly the opposite. Juanjo, like Gary Byers, or the SBCL crew, is incredibly helpful. 19:31:11 did they use it? No, just ignoed my improvements 19:31:46 Anyway, time for dinner for me 19:31:48 wb beach 19:31:56 anyway 19:32:21 *Xach* has had good luck getting a patch into ECL 19:32:24 what i meant is without need for ecl dll 19:32:29 madnificent: tx mdnfct 19:33:05 anyway, if anyone is interetsed in the source code for ecl to build without dll I can provide it 19:33:44 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["War isn't about who's right. It's about who's left."] 19:33:50 *stassats* goes back to debugging slime 19:33:58 what are you debugging? 19:34:06 type-ahead 19:34:22 talk to consolers in #emacs, I think he knows the reason 19:34:54 well, i know half a reason, first, it's caused by presentations 19:35:19 -!- xan [n=xan@29.Red-83-59-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:35:53 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:35:54 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-4-120.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:35:56 because it doesn't save excursion, but naively saving excursion doesn't help 19:36:06 francogrex: did you provide a paycheck? <<< as hard as it is for some to believe, more statisfaction comes from helping FREELY 19:36:32 wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:47 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:37:44 any one here knows how to compile a fortran file? like this one http://www.netlib.org/toms/659 19:37:45 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-61-58.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:38:02 but anyway, cannot blame the people for ignoring windows related improvement because a lot in the GNU-like communities can't care less about windows 19:38:22 for a good reason 19:38:23 I just wrote the lisp version of it, however, it is quite difficult to test its correctness, so I'd like to run the fortran code to see if they produce the same output 19:38:35 leo2007: with a fortran compiler? 19:38:42 dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:44 leo2007, f2cl? 19:38:45 leo2007: That a self-extracting shell script 19:40:22 smoofra: when I run g77 on it, it returns (.text+0x1e): undefined reference to `MAIN__' 19:40:34 minion: where is f2cl? 19:40:35 behind you! 19:41:04 where to find f2cl? 19:41:13 -!- dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:41:15 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:18 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:41:27 you don't really need to for this purpose 19:41:31 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:03 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209.91.55.220] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:42:14 My lisp is not a literaly translation of the fortran code, I read the original paper and implemented it 19:42:27 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:42:48 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:08 leo2007: so add a main, or compile it with -c 19:43:43 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:44:04 smoofra: with -c it outputs .o file, don't know how to use that either 19:44:11 hello lisp 19:44:41 leo2007: have you ever used a compiled language like C or fortran before? 19:45:09 yes, a long time ago 19:45:12 leo2007: the .o file has compiled versions of hte functions in the .f 19:45:47 leo2007: in order to use it you have to link it with something that has a main function so the OS knows where to start your program 19:45:57 leo2007, maxima has f2cl 19:46:09 or look for it in maxima's source code 19:46:33 pjb` [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 19:46:40 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 19:46:56 and the peer reviewed article here: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/16765/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0 19:47:03 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:49:26 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:49:29 leo2007 it's more rewarding to translate the algorithm directly from the math/stat or whatever article and check for correctness (like you want to do) 19:49:48 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-2-84.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 19:50:04 hail 19:50:17 francogrex: yes, it is much shorter than translation and usually better 19:51:17 replaca__ [n=tom@76-191-193-111.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:38 f2cl seems more troublesome to use 19:51:44 Sikander: if you suspect there is a bug in clipping regions, please mail a test case to the mcclim list, or paste it here 19:52:03 is it allowed to override a CLOS slot allocation in a subclass from :instance to :class? 19:52:28 leo2007, depends, maybe on what u want yes, but in general I like using it and have used it sucessfully several times before 19:52:34 Could you someone help me with a `main' function to call SUBROUTINE INSOBL(FLAG,DIMEN,ATMOST,TAUS) 19:52:46 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:52:56 francogrex: I got maxima installed, how to use it? 19:53:02 leo2007: I doubt it. You don't expose any problem. How could anybody help you? 19:53:32 -!- Muld [n=wr23@88-196-35-54-dsl.noe.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:54:05 pjb: a fortran code with two functions that I want to use to test my lisp implementation of the same algorithm 19:54:24 leo2007: you could use cffi 19:54:25 leo2007, i am trying to run f2cl on it but doesn't seem to be ok 19:54:26 but I have very very limited knowledge working with compiled languages 19:54:29 and just call the function from lisp 19:54:47 levy: my impression from the spec is that it is ok to do that. 19:55:05 f2cl is rather old. AFAIK, it implements Fortran IV. If your fortran code is more modern, it's bound to present difficulties to f2cl. 19:55:22 Xach, thanks, seems to work in SBCL, I just wasn't be sure 19:55:28 that code is from the author of the algorithm 19:55:29 BTW, how common is it to do that? 19:55:29 FORTRAN-TO-LISP>> 6 and NIL are illegal as :START and :END for the sequence "then". 19:56:00 i haven't seen any code doing it even though i've seen quite a bit 19:56:00 levy: i haven't seen class-allocated slots very often. 19:56:06 pjb, indeed; sorry leo2007 19:56:27 In that case, cffi might be the best route. 19:56:30 could someone help me write cffi for the two functions mentioned in it 19:56:40 levy: most of the context i see of class-allocated slots is something like: "i want to use class-allocated slots..." followed by "no you don't, use a global special." 19:57:03 if someone does i'm intrested as well 19:57:07 -!- hbock [n=hbock@198.7.232.249] has quit ["leaving"] 19:57:18 leo2007: can you determine the C API? 19:57:33 the lisp version behaves very nicely for dimention less than 12 but seems to exhibit some problems at dimention 14 and 15 19:57:42 -!- wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:57:44 Xach, actually i would like to use it to trade between memory/feature and CPU 19:57:48 pjb: the fortran api? 19:57:56 C. 19:58:11 pjb: no 19:58:17 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:58:28 When you compile that function with a fortran compiler, you should be able to determine from the documentation of that compiler how to call it from C. 19:58:46 levy: how will you do that? 19:58:47 pjb: it is g77 I used 19:58:48 wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:09 say in a web gui you have an inspector which has two slots called editable and edited 20:00:09 the first controls whether the inspector should allow the user to edit (set programatically) while the other one is switched by the user to actually edit or not 20:00:14 http://imagebin.org/54900 20:00:15 leo2007: what does the g77 manual say? 20:01:14 leo2007: what is "dimention"? 20:01:20 put it this way: I would like to have three different kinds of components, namely viewers, editors and inspectors 20:01:33 sorry, typo 20:01:39 dimension 20:01:42 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.51.25] has joined #lisp 20:01:45 what is the inheritance between those to reuse as much code as possible while keeping the memory layout as compact as possible 20:01:51 and still not burn the CPU 20:02:18 pjb: I have little idea what will be useful, http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-3.2.3/g77/. I am sorry to paste the whole manual 20:02:28 all three components build recursively on the actual value they get 20:02:51 the dots are supposed to evenly spread in the unit square 20:03:11 if you should be worrying about that, you probably shouldn't be using CLOS classes. 20:03:14 so, my idea was to implement the most generic behavior in the inspector with the two mentioned slots 20:03:32 leo2007: http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-3.4.6/g77/Interoperating-with-C-and-C_002b_002b.html#Interoperating-with-C-and-C_002b_002b 20:03:36 and let the viewers/editors be subclasses of inspectors and hide the slots by using :class allocation 20:03:43 leo2007: I told you to read the doc of g77... 20:03:52 plus some generic methods to burn some CPU 20:04:06 Xach, sounds weird? 20:04:11 levy: Sorry, I don't understand it. 20:04:12 at 1 - 12, it looks nice, http://imagebin.org/54902 20:05:05 eh, it's kind of hard to describe, because there's a lot of details involved 20:05:12 levy: what you are describing sounds a lot like the early versions of lisp-on-lines. 20:05:41 *hefner* braces himself for the inevitable contextl plug 20:06:00 we are already using this web gui library in a production system, it is just not yet released to the public 20:06:37 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 20:06:43 pjb: I run f2c on it, now what next 20:06:59 i later found that i wanted a lot more than the states i had hardcoded in.... and, yes, found contextl and built on that. 20:07:01 f2cl is rather old. AFAIK, it implements Fortran IV. If your fortran code is more modern, it's bound to present difficulties to f2cl. 20:07:07 Oh, you mean f2c. 20:07:10 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:07:13 It's even better than g77. 20:07:22 Then you just have to look at the generated code. 20:07:33 And write the corresopnding cffi defcfun form 20:07:48 *leo2007* has never used cffi 20:08:07 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:08:08 -!- wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:08:09 drewc, i don't know much about that, but from what i've learned about lol (i don't even remember when i was looking at it last time), it is quite different 20:08:12 leo2007: http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/index.html#Top 20:08:20 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:08:31 leo2007: any way you do this you're going to have to figure out what the API is for that function you want to call 20:08:52 once you do that, you can call it from C or CFFI or more fortran or whatever 20:09:06 leo2007, if you can make a C code from it I can try to help you compile it 20:09:18 Leo2007 pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83191 20:09:24 also ECL through ffi can embed C code very nicely 20:09:29 let me rephrase the issue a bit 20:10:02 francogrex: yes, I got a c version now, but it is too long for most pastebins 20:10:12 say you have a couple of mixins more or less orthogonal of each other 20:10:33 the number of combinations is quite high, so you don't want to do each combination by hand 20:10:39 yeah, it's one of those unreadable machine transalted codes 20:11:13 you know, without being offensive, can't you see with a fortran channel? 20:11:14 it's good that we have dynamic classes, but since mixins are not orthogonal they will just not work by randomly putting them into the direct superclasses 20:11:16 levy: you want traits 20:11:35 there is probably still fortran fans on freende IRC 20:11:49 levy: sounds like you want contextl's layered-classes. 20:11:50 levy: traits, the arch-enemies of mixins 20:12:04 leo2007: (defcfun (insobl "insobl_" :library :yourlib) :int (flag (:pointer logical)) (dimen (:pointer integer) (atmost (:pointer integer)) (taus (:pointer integer)))) 20:12:07 fe[nl]ix, i don't know what exactly you mean by that, but let me continue 20:12:16 drewc, we already use that 20:12:27 francogrex: http://pastebin.ca/1487285 20:12:36 drewc, but for this issue i don't see how it would help 20:12:48 levy: then i don't understand the issue. 20:13:23 so, my idea is to implement a class which mixes in all mixins into a single class resolving all problems arising from the combination 20:14:18 and if i want to have a specific combination, then a subclass can "pull out" that mixin by removing per instance slots (making them :class allocation) and providing default initargs 20:14:27 levy: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.12.9711 20:14:34 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:15:47 fe[nl]ix, from the abstract i don't see how they are different to CLOS mixins 20:17:02 fe[nl]ix, "Traits are essentially groups of methods ..." seems like a couple of generic methods would do? 20:17:39 fe[nl]ix, the question is that where do you keep the state, what is the memory layout, etc. and clearly it can be separated from generic methods 20:17:45 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:49 Leo2007 annotated #83191 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83191#1 20:18:15 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:18:27 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:18:58 pjb: could you help me get your cffi code to work? 20:19:28 Add the obviously missing parenthesis. 20:19:47 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-59e43a91d3dda6c9] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:19:55 Read cffi manual add the missing library and type definitions. 20:20:26 leo2007: did you check out the CFFI tutorial? 20:20:39 -!- Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@84.166.61.124] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5/20090624025744]"] 20:20:40 -!- dysinger [n=tim@32.178.128.222] has quit [Success] 20:21:31 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:54 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 20:23:30 I think I probably won't have time to fix the problem, I will try to avoid the high dimension case 20:25:10 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:26:16 Xach: could you add the fact that sean is willing to help anyone that's willing to continue mudballs development to your blog post? 20:26:46 madnificent: no. 20:26:53 madnificent: people who are interested can read his article. 20:27:24 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-195-178.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:03 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 20:30:28 fe[nl]ix, this paper has some weird assumptions, namely that there is no customizable meta object protocol 20:30:57 fe[nl]ix, it also seems to assume that all functions are "class" functions whether they are single or multiple dispatch based 20:32:32 milanj [n=milan@93.86.59.111] has joined #lisp 20:32:37 this is funny: actually i failed a couple of times to explain my fellow Java programmers that functions are good abstractions on their own (you don't need a class for them :) 20:33:19 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 20:33:35 Well, when you read C++ programmers, you get your share of funny ideas too. 20:34:06 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:38 luis: do you have any idea how, given a foreign library, I can find an address contained in code that belongs to that library ? 20:35:48 fe[nl]ix: you will have to use dl functions directly. 20:36:17 pjb: yes, that's the point: I need to use dladdr() 20:37:11 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:37:20 (decfun (dladdr "dladdr") :int (addr :pointer) (info (:pointer dl-info))) 20:37:38 pjb: gee, thanks 20:37:47 ;- 20:37:51 fe[nl]ix: (foreign-symbol-pointer "foo" :library bar) ? 20:37:53 :-) 20:38:37 fe[nl]ix: oh, but that is not implemented in every lisp. 20:38:42 hey, dladdr is pretty neat. I never knew about that one. 20:38:54 we might need to use dladdr in the other lisps. 20:39:00 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 20:39:28 bah, it is objects all the way down (to hell)... and you can't reuse code by implementing higher order functions... there's no late binding, not to mention dynamism which is the root of all evil left 20:40:00 luis: the point is that I want to dlopen("foo.so") and I want the absolute path of the shared object that the linker actually loaded 20:40:07 ok i stole the last few words, but that is really funny 20:40:45 if there's any evil left after so many root of all evils... 20:40:51 ACL comes with something based on dladdr, I believe 20:41:18 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.179.245.223] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:41:25 luis: and dladdr() does that, but first I need to find somehow a pointer within the address space where that library is mapped 20:41:25 fe[nl]ix: iirc there's no such api 20:41:43 p_l: I can see that :D 20:41:43 (for the absolute path, I mean) 20:41:48 but I need to come up with one 20:42:12 p_l: dladdr(2) says "const char *dli_fname The pathname of the shared object containing 20:42:12 the address. 20:42:12 " 20:42:17 fe[nl]ix: you can try searching through OS loader's searchpath (which is obviously nonportable) 20:42:20 fe[nl]ix: hmmm 20:42:33 -!- jao [n=jao@179.Red-83-57-4.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.95.1"] 20:42:50 does anyone know which implementations cl-walker currently supports? From the source it looks like only SBCL is supported. 20:43:08 fe[nl]ix: ah, it's a glibc extension 20:43:22 p_l: that's exactly what I want to avoid 20:43:27 p_l: freebsd has it too 20:43:46 fe[nl]ix: in BSD libc? 20:43:57 p_l: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=dladdr&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+8-current&format=html 20:44:15 demmel: ls cl-walker/src/lexenv-*.lisp 20:44:16 p_l: since 7.0, apparently 20:44:50 tcr: take a look in those files. they are all bogus 20:45:07 fe[nl]ix: right, seems like it's from Solaris, no wonder it got implemented in few places (and suggests that GLIBC manual lies) 20:45:17 only SBCL contains actual implementation 20:45:31 fe[nl]ix: oh, found mention of SunOS in glibc manual 20:46:30 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@204.194.78.3] has quit [] 20:46:42 netbsd, openbsd, osx have dladdr() too 20:46:43 good 20:46:55 demmel, cl-walker is tested only under SBCL 20:47:01 demmel: the walker in arnesi, on which cl-walker is based, contains implementations for most lisps. 20:47:03 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [] 20:47:11 demmel, but since it is a fork of arnesi 20:47:25 drewc: It seems they changed something and had to comment out all other implementations 20:47:33 Which comes as a surprise 20:48:21 they probably just don't care, and there are not enough users to put up a stink. 20:48:46 Sure 20:48:48 drewc: probably 20:50:50 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:51 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:51:54 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AD92.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:42 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17EFAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:54:22 I have got the .f file to work without cffi. Thank you all for your suggestions. I will look at cffi after finishing this. 20:56:12 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:56:45 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:01 wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:13 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@128.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:06:24 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:07:56 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g230013102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:07:58 lispm [n=joswig@e177121219.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:08:42 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:10:28 are there any projects that already used mudballs? 21:11:29 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 21:11:42 -!- rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:12:59 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-ea76ac5dc7868a2e] has joined #lisp 21:13:01 serichsen: mudballs? 21:13:07 cl-smoke? 21:16:04 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:16:42 minion: mudballs? 21:16:43 mudballs: Mudballs is a system management tool for Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/mudballs 21:16:59 minion: thanks 21:17:00 you're welcome 21:17:38 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@41.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:18:32 pjb` [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 21:20:24 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:32 http://groups.google.com/group/mudballs/browse_thread/thread/15755f04ff62629c 21:22:17 mudballs 21:22:32 i got rolled in the mud recompiling sbcl 21:22:49 2 hours on 400MHz ppc mac 21:22:55 what?! mudballs died?! 21:23:00 i thought it would never end 21:23:21 sykopomp: it seems that "comatose" is a better description right now 21:24:04 serichsen: mudballs was a glimmer of hope for a non-sucky method of distribution :( 21:26:09 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4793.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:30:11 -!- wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:30:29 sykopomp: so, are you going to pick up maintenance ? 21:31:03 salex: probably not. I don't really like the part where mudballs was trying to replace asdf altogether. 21:31:46 I would like to see something that can add external 'repositories' into a config file, and search all of those repos for projects that could be downloaded. 21:31:53 and use versioning, and the like. 21:32:11 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-123-234.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:32:22 so those repositories could actually be trusted, as opposed to just installing whatever tarball someone dropped into cliki. 21:32:38 it also means that if you just want to add your own projects and make them available, you make your own repo. 21:33:58 Pegazus [n=awefawe@host250.190-224-109.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:34:28 sykopomp: use github for that? 21:35:17 (or set up something similar for cl) 21:35:29 Sikander: ideally, it could. 21:35:42 I believe that's one thing that ruby gems do? 21:36:10 wubbster [n=wubb@doc-24-206-235-153.kw.tx.cebridge.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:10 this past week, I've been going through the process of getting a couple of people set up with lisp so they can work on one of my projects. 21:36:39 it was bad enough to help them set up slime -- but then they had to set up projects using three different methods :\ 21:36:39 sykopomp: nice 21:36:41 it wasn't pretty. 21:36:48 sykopomp: what is your opinion on eggs, the python way of doing things? 21:37:43 "okay, first do asdf-install:install blabla, okay now fetch that -one- library that doesn't have a public repo. Okay okay... now, let's install these other things with clbuild. install clbuild and configure it first, follow the instructions. Okay, now there's this project that isn't on asdf-install or on clbuild, so lets manually pull the project from github and link the .asd..." 21:37:55 Sikander: I don't know much about how eggs/gems/etc are set up. 21:37:57 heheh 21:37:58 sykopomp: it seems that all projects on CL and packaging try to have a centralised repository for some reason... Ruby does that with gems (and a gem-like thing for CL could be nice) 21:38:23 madnificent: centralization sucks. I don't want to have to ask for permission for someone to add my project. 21:38:36 sykopomp: what do you think of ctan and cpan then? 21:38:42 I want to be able to give someone a repo where I put my own project up, and I want them to be able to trust that repo, because I gave them the link. 21:38:51 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-2-84.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 21:38:58 sykopomp: isn't cliki comparable to ctan/cpan? 21:39:06 sykopomp: I think (but am not sure) that a vanilla gems could actually do what we currently need (with the help of clbuild (or some manual way) to resolve dependencies) 21:39:15 Sikander: I haven't used any of these. That's partly why I don't want to take over a project like this. I don't know what the Right Thing is, I just have an obvious problem, and I don't like the solutions I've tried so far. 21:39:22 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 21:39:32 (incf sykopomp) 21:39:55 sykopomp: maybe we should learn from linux dists. How about something like portage? 21:40:10 sykopomp: or apt for that matter 21:40:16 sykopomp: gems are slightly similar to asdf-install, except they support versioning and multiple repositories, plus they can be augmented in various ways (there's for example a special bridge that builds gems from github repos) 21:40:38 p_l: and the main repo isn't a wiki? :) 21:40:41 or is it? 21:40:47 p_l: gems sounds like portage for ruby! 21:40:57 sykopomp: it isn't 21:41:07 p_l: that's one problem with asdf-install, imo. 21:41:30 the original "repo" is the rubygems page, which is kind of sourceforge-type 21:41:37 I think the compromise between "let's have some semblance of trust" and "I don't want to have to always e-mail the repo maintainer" is "let's allow people to set up their own repos easily" 21:41:48 sykopomp: how would they trust you if you gave them just a link? you need a web of trust, that's what asdf-install was supposed to do 21:42:14 Sikander: less complicated than portage... they don't have use-flags for instance 21:42:22 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:42:22 stassats: I would like to see how many people actually bother setting up the GPG keys for asdf-install... 21:42:25 sykopomp: everyone already has their own repo :) 21:42:34 sykopomp: "supposed" 21:42:39 stassats: automating the whole mess with signatures would help 21:42:41 I agree that a "main" repo would be good for a "web of trust" but you could, on your own, decide to add other sources. Similar to apt, no? 21:42:49 stassats: anyways, I think it would be a good idea to keep the 'web of trust' part out of the actual distribution part. 21:42:58 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:02 stassats: in many linux distros, you just add a repo. It's that simple. 21:43:15 whether that repo is trustworthy or not shouldn't be part of the package manager's job. 21:43:28 madnificent: good point. I vote for an apt-like thing 21:43:28 Gems allows to make your own repos easily (including a self-contained server) as well as manages building on documentation and native extensions 21:43:30 *hefner* adds apt sources, finds they don't really work half the time 21:43:36 niche [n=haf@ool-18bd3ac7.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:44 a nice big warning that says "don't add repos you don't trust" is good enough, imo. 21:44:14 there is no reason why you can't have a web of trust with a distributed system. If you provide a separate way to fetch the keys of certain releases, you're safe too... besides that, the main problem is not security for now (I think), we should focus on usability 21:44:15 next question "whom to trust?" 21:44:29 http://github.com/mojombo/grit/blob/master/grit.gemspec?raw=true <--- example gemspec file. Notify certain similarities to ASDF's defsystem data 21:44:32 Could it be possible to map words and their meanings to distinct colors and paragraphs to positions? So that one could search with colors? 21:44:38 p_l: is there a reason why gems wouldn't work -out-of-the-box- for lisp projects? 21:44:39 okflo [n=user@91-115-84-117.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:44:47 That way, I could google general concepts and look for the correct color I need... 21:45:15 ...uh what? 21:45:20 Without knowing which words will hit the color, but knowing that if I find something worded differently than what I expect (different saturation) 21:45:20 Isn't this trust issue the same with other packaging? I mean, I have added some portage overlays and write my own ebuilds for some stuff. This means that I just have to trust those myself 21:45:23 madnificent: they are rather heavily ruby-oriented (the whole system includes hooks to require method) 21:45:28 I will still understand that it is the same hue as what I'm looking for 21:45:39 stassats: GPG key sharing and all that can be done, but it should be done outside of the distribution mechanism, which should be, first and foremost, easy to use. 21:46:03 "He is an avid reader" "That guy consumes books like water" "Literature is his entertainment" 21:46:08 sykopomp: is your problem with asdf-install the interface, or, say, the backend, or both? 21:46:19 -!- LiamH [n=none@208.72.159.207] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:46:29 All of these mean the same thing. What if nobody expressed the idea in the 1st or 3rd way, but in the 2nd way? 21:46:36 p_l: right, and every gem has his own directory (forgot that minor problem). But even with that, you can set asdf to search the complete directory tree, which would make it work... (gems support separate versions installed at the same time, right (that would be bad)) 21:46:37 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:46:44 How could I search for that? It would be too tedious to search for all those synonyms 21:47:11 i started to think about security, i wouldn't trust anyone 21:47:14 It makes sense to me but many people barely grasp it and taht frustrates me 21:47:15 Sikander: the interface (asking me every time -where- I want to install it, having to deal with GPG keys), and a relatively untrustworthy backend (GPG keys have to be dealt with because a wiki is particularly untrustworthy) 21:47:48 s/^/if / 21:47:56 sykopomp: But then I guess some things in the interface can be polished, and the backend to allow for real "repositories". 21:48:05 sykopomp: i patched that asking bit out. it's so annoying. 21:48:05 madnificent: I had some code started on augmenting ASDF to support RubyGems-style deployment, but nothing usable right now (and with possibly some controversial choices) 21:48:11 Think of a word in a thesaurus... like "hot"... map it as red and any synonym for it as a shade of red 21:48:21 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.177.22] has joined #lisp 21:48:22 So if you find any sentence with a synonym for hot, it will be some shade of red 21:48:33 I would love to use asdf if it had versions, multiple repos, and searching (can it already search?) 21:48:37 I guess I don't make any sense. 21:48:37 I wanted to suggest what p_l is apparently already working on 21:48:55 -!- okflo [n=user@91-115-84-117.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:48:58 I mean, those are the things I liked about mudballs. i didn't care so much about the whole system building part of it. 21:49:15 the problem with asdf-install is that it is A) centralised B) not used by all projects (binaries) C) about as secure as a 1mm thick layer of air at 1 atm trying to protect you from a bullet going straight to your head D) lacking support for repositories (tags etc) E) the potential lack of multiple versions being installed at the same time 21:49:22 sykopomp: it has versions specifier, but it doesn't do anything except complaining if you try loading incompatible systems 21:49:28 meh 21:49:44 the other thing is that I also, to an extent, like clbuild's approach. 21:49:44 sykopomp: mudballs was centralised too 21:49:57 sykopomp: clbuild is centralised too 21:49:59 madnificent: that's one thing I really hated about it, but it was apparently in the process of getting opened up somewhat. 21:50:00 sykopomp: my idea was to reuse parts of clbuild 21:50:10 p_l: that sounds neat. 21:50:41 sykopomp: so you could download versions by tags in repositories as well as branches/newest 21:50:56 JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:58 the thing is, I want it all: I want to be able to pull specific releases of stuff, but I also want to be able to pull the latest version from VC of a particular project. 21:51:04 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 21:51:09 *madnificent* would test and support any sufficiently newbie-friendly distributed deployment system that allows for the easy addition of external libraries (like clbuild does) 21:51:10 p_l: sounds great; when can we expect a working version :) 21:51:21 *stassats* has his own little file with lists of repositories and doesn't bother 21:51:35 p_l: what about people that don't want to maintain a public repo and just want to release tarballs? 21:51:40 Sikander: I doubt I'll finish it soon - I've got more pressing concerns, like this app that I should have a demo of already 21:51:42 *madnificent* bothers abouts stassats's list 21:51:58 p_l: ah, yes, I remember... 21:52:26 sykopomp: tarballs would be of course also supported (also, a set release tools would be included to make it easy with both methods of releasing ) 21:52:27 madnificent: http://github.com/stassats/lisp-config/blob/18de4c9396347ba730244d68328ca4bfe433e294/bin/data here it is 21:53:01 p_l: this sounds interesting 21:53:30 p_l: Maybe you should put some of this code and ideas on paper, and let others help? 21:53:35 I think improving the way we distribute libraries would be a huge step. It's easy to forget how important it is when you've grown used to doing things the way you already do. 21:53:35 sykopomp: I think release tools would be the most important thing, no matter what kind of system gets created 21:53:47 kind of a wake-up call when you almost lose 2 devs because it's so hard to get set up :< 21:53:58 p_l: yeah 21:55:03 some kind of "project template" would be also nice, as in "run this and get a directory prepared for development and future releases in standardised way" 21:55:23 madnificent pasted "unknown &key argument: :NAME" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83199 21:55:38 template could be used by people who are just starting, while other people could use their own style 21:55:44 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:55:50 (on the paste: what am I forgetting?) 21:55:52 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 21:55:57 mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #lisp 21:56:03 -!- grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 21:56:28 stassats: lispy form :) 21:57:44 for ease of parsing 21:58:02 p_l: have you specified an interface? If so, putting the code on github could get it running... (at least sykobot learned me that) 21:59:07 madnificent: it's ironic. I tried to find help with that MUD for about a year. I then worked on sykobot for a few hours to get a bot for my channel, and now there's 3 other people coding on it heavily. :\ 21:59:14 two of them non-lispers >_> 21:59:35 sykopomp: you have the power of motivating people :) (now look at my paste!) 21:59:48 madnificent: :P 21:59:52 sykopomp: it all depends on you having an interesting project. 22:00:00 a good IRC bot is very interesting to its users. 22:00:08 madnificent: what am I looking at in that paste? 22:00:20 sykopomp: an error I'm having... I can't find it 22:01:13 and I fear/hope it's going to be something blatantly obvious 22:01:39 is that all code? 22:02:15 madnificent: set-args doesn't have &aok is the first thing that comes to mind. 22:02:49 stassats`: yes (it fails at the last definition) 22:03:25 nah, i won't run, my repl is screwed 22:03:47 Ralith: it's so true :< 22:04:03 sykobot has gotten pretty huge in only a week, too :| 22:04:28 sykopomp: I thought that would be handled by &rest (yay, now I get a different error) 22:04:45 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["bye bye for now"] 22:05:15 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:05:53 madnificent: I don't know. That just seems to be the source of the error. 22:06:11 someone else can pull up the hyperspec for a proper answer :P 22:06:45 it wouldn't handled by the &rest 22:09:49 sigh, I'm suddenly getting a whole range of errors (coffee and squash the bastards) 22:10:33 -!- TDT [i=dthole@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has left #lisp 22:10:34 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@47.Red-213-97-139.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:56 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:13:50 somehow I'm not a fan of DEFMETHODs inside FLETs 22:14:37 lispm: where did you see that ? 22:14:53 http://paste.lisp.org/display/83199 22:14:55 fe[nl]ix: don't ask him! it was not in my paste! 22:15:01 haha 22:15:09 ;-) 22:15:11 lies lies, damned lies 22:15:21 we've seen it all! 22:15:39 madnificent: explain yourself. Why would you do such a thing? 22:15:55 sykopomp: I don't want to :( 22:15:59 how would you write it? 22:16:07 next thing you know, you'll be wrapping the entire toplevel of your program in a single LET, because you want a 'global' lexical space. 22:16:15 global DEFUN 22:16:30 you have nothing to hide ;-) 22:16:31 it's all a slippery slope -- we'll be marrying dogs before we know it. 22:16:35 well at least the DEFMETHOD isn't in the local function defined in the FLET 22:16:45 true 22:17:05 that would be worse ;-) 22:17:07 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 22:17:40 I also like this one: 22:17:59 slot slot-name , :documentation "The name of the slot in the class" 22:18:01 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 22:18:07 sorry ;-) 22:18:37 is there a way to determine if a symbol is bound to a symbol-macro in a certain lexical-environment? like macro-function for macros? 22:18:43 the context makes it clear that the documentation is useful 22:18:47 demmel: macroexpand it 22:18:58 Well, as a newbie, I'm sure to never share code when lispm is here ;) 22:19:05 lispm: yes, it makes sense if you add the other documentation :) 22:19:20 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 22:19:22 madnificent: I particularly like how I'm using sykobot as an insidious test platform for sheeple >:D 22:19:25 pkhuong: second return value should be t right? 22:19:25 bwahahahahaha 22:19:29 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:19:34 sykopomp: sheeple makes things fun 22:19:51 sheeple? 22:19:53 madnificent: specially when you can (property-summary *sheep*) 22:19:56 minion: sheeple? 22:19:57 sheeple: Sheeple is a Dynamic, CLOS-like, Delegative Prototype-based Object-Oriented Programming Framework (or "POOP Framework") that strives to optimize application flexibility, minimize cost while increasing value, maximize programmer resources, and empower application implementers to better assist them in leveraging modern paradigms in order to proactively achieve next-generation synergy in tomorrow's web 3.0 world. http://www.cliki.net/sheeple 22:20:03 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.177.22] has quit [] 22:20:11 good lord. 22:20:15 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.51.25] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:20:16 sick 22:20:17 *sykopomp* cackles madly. 22:20:21 demmel: macroexpand-1 even, to avoid recursive expansion. 22:20:22 bingo! 22:20:23 lispm: I don't see your name at http://eclm2009.agharta.de :) don't you intend to come ? 22:20:26 *stassats`* overwhelmed by buzzwords 22:20:34 pkhuong: thanks. 22:20:41 xan [n=xan@29.Red-83-59-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:45 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:21:00 fe[nl]ix, your name? 22:21:02 stassats`: sheeple's version of defgeneric used to be called defbuzzword :P 22:21:21 lispm: see /whois 22:21:50 Address-based locatives (pair of base + byte offset). Don't know whether to be happy it works or disgusted I wanted something like that. 22:21:53 aha, so you are already registered 22:22:11 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:24:05 sykopomp: ... I AM NOT WORTHY O_O 22:24:06 hrmn... I might actually be in europe around the time of the ECL meeting. 22:24:13 p_l: wut? 22:24:23 Fade: please come, then 22:24:24 can a (lambda (..) ..) appear in other places than (function (lambda ...)) or as the car of a form? (in macroexpanded code) 22:24:42 i won't know what my itinerary looks like until the end of july, but if I can manage it, I will. 22:24:55 ((lambda (foo) ..) 3) 22:24:57 (lambda ..) will be expanded into (function (lambda ..)) 22:25:12 lispm thats a macro 22:25:20 lispm: that's a car of a form 22:25:21 haha @ sheeple 22:25:36 lispm: err car of a form i mean 22:25:39 *sykopomp* points out that sheeple is actually useful. 22:25:44 sykopomp: I mean about sheeple's info in minion 22:25:59 p_l: hehe :P 22:26:02 stassats`: so the answer is "no" right? 22:26:12 (quote (lambda (foo) ...)) 22:26:19 p_l: I've cobbled it together with bits and pieces of some real-life examples of such project descriptions. 22:26:34 demmel: the question is wrong 22:26:39 the sad part is... some people would take that description seriously :P 22:26:43 lispm: good point. I meant evaluated code only though. 22:27:33 stassats`: how come? 22:27:53 demmel: any lambda form in a position that's normally evaluated would macroexpanded into (function (lambda ...)). 22:28:08 sykopomp: rotfl at sheeple dictionary 22:28:40 pkhuong: yeah. that doesnt make my question wrong. 22:29:28 well, the question loses its sense: "can a (function (lambda (..) ..)) appear in other places than (function (lambda..." 22:29:37 p_l: http://github.com/sykopomp/sheeple/tree/devel The readme in this branch has an actual quick example of what it's like. 22:29:41 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:29:50 demmel: I never said as much, but it is somewhat sloppily phrased. 22:30:07 -!- pjb` [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:30:10 stassats`: ((lambda ...) ...) does _not_ macroexpand 22:30:13 Blkt [n=Blkt@dynamic-adsl-94-37-247-157.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 22:30:44 demmel: it's not evaluated here either 22:31:50 stassats`: Which means my question lists the two situations where a (lambda ..) can appear (not as macro and not quoted) 22:32:27 stassats`: I was just not sure I didn't miss something. 22:32:59 these would be candidates: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/sec_3-1-2-1-2-1.html#clspecialops 22:33:07 and yeah the wording wasn't great I admit. 22:33:17 but I don't see anything other there 22:33:18 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:33:57 demmel: so you're asking whether any other form treats specifically lambda-expression? 22:34:04 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:34:40 stassats`: i guess 22:39:16 To summarize: (lambda ..) expands to (function (lambda..)) where it would be evaluated and can otherwise appear as the car of a form or the cadr of (function ...) or in quoted code. 22:39:17 demmel: yes, when you define a function that returns a lambda 22:39:17 X-Scale2 [i=email@89.180.203.189] has joined #lisp 22:39:37 umm 22:39:48 it'll return (function (lambda ...)) 22:39:56 serichsen: that would be a macro call to lambda and expand to (function (lam,bda ..)) 22:41:17 I'll have to add implementation specific special forms to that list. 22:41:40 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.232] has joined #lisp 22:43:18 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-66-159.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:43:30 And parameters to other macro-calls... But that goes away after macroexpansion. 22:44:57 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@128.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:45:23 -!- willb [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:45:32 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 22:45:55 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-30.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 22:46:20 demmel: what about (let ((lambda 3)) ...)? ;o) 22:46:31 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 22:46:38 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:46:49 it doesn't have any special meaning 22:47:31 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@x-132-204-255-9.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:47:33 of course not :) 22:48:04 serichsen: fair point in terms of my wording. But otherwise not the kind of thing I meant :) 22:48:30 demmel: I suspected that ;) 22:48:42 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.232] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:48:42 serichsen: ;) 22:49:01 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.232] has joined #lisp 22:49:12 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:51:26 demmel: (let (#'(lambda (x) (1+ x))) (funcall function 1)) 22:51:59 for extra fun 22:52:16 drewc: *lol* 22:54:24 drewc: there it is evaluated and macroexpanded... this might be useful for a code obfuscator though :) 22:54:59 so how does this go, again? is (lambda ..) expanded to #'(lambda ..), or is it the other way around? 22:55:26 (lambda ...) is a macro call 22:55:35 and expands to (function (lambda ...)) 22:56:00 lambda is a symbol that is evaluated in a special way in certain situations 22:56:06 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host26.190-137-245.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:56:26 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.220.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:56:26 lambda as a symbol isn't evaluated in any special way 22:56:38 #'(lambda ...) is a reader macro and also expands to (function (lambda ...)) 22:56:40 no, but its form 22:57:51 serichsen: that situations being the car of a form and the cadr of a function form... 22:58:38 ((lambda (function) (funcall function 1)) (coerce (list 'lambda '(x) '(1+ x)) 'function)) 22:59:06 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:59:07 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:59:43 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.232] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:00:17 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.216.232] has joined #lisp 23:00:49 drewc: quite creative 23:00:56 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:01:45 demmel_ [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-221-237.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:45 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.59.111] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:04:23 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:04:56 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:19 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-233-205.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:11 demmel: (funcall (compile nil (cons 'lambda (cons (cons 'x ()) (cons (cons '1+ (cons 'x ())) ())))) 1) :) 23:08:41 (flet ((x () 'x)) (prog ((lambda (x))) (print lambda))) 23:10:07 lispm: PROG has to be one of my favorite 'weird' CL constructs :) 23:11:22 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 23:12:29 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 23:15:10 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 23:16:33 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:16:44 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 23:16:48 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:35 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:17:52 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-078-226.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:20:19 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:20:57 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:28:31 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:26 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 23:32:58 NNshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-184.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:36:06 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:37:05 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:49 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:34 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has joined #lisp 23:46:39 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 23:47:42 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AD92.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:48:45 How come SLIME Apropos says that there's an external symbol *lexenv* in the package sb-c, but the REPL tells me that the variable sb-c:*lexenv* is unbound? 23:48:55 (I want to use some SBCL-specific extensions, obviously) 23:48:57 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:49:25 Furthermore, how come I see SBCL source code using the name sb!c instead of sb-c? 23:50:18 sb!c is a trick to support cross-compilation 23:51:01 Captain_Thunder: exported symbols are completely orthagonal to variables .. i can export any symbol i want from any package. 23:51:18 Captain_Thunder: furthermore, DEFVAR allows you to declare variables without binding them to a value. 23:52:11 Captain_Thunder: (defvar *lexenv*) will do just such a thing. This is extremely useful for specials, like say a lexical environment, that will be unbound at the toplevel, but LET-bound somewhere else. 23:52:33 I tried seeing if it became bound in a LET, but it didn't. 23:52:53 What I really want to know is if SBCL has some extensions for calling EVAL in a non-null lexical environment. 23:53:08 Like CLISP's the-environment function for getting the current environment. 23:54:34 Captain_Thunder: chances are, if you want to do that, you're doing something terribly wrong. 23:54:58 It's for a library I'm writing where the user supplies S-expressions embedded in strings. 23:55:14 I'd like those expressions to be evaluated with full access to the surrounding code. 23:55:27 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-67.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:56:05 Captain_Thunder: why?, and what do you mean by 'surrounding code' ? 23:56:30 you know, wherever. 23:56:46 Well, surrounding code meaning the lexical environment. 23:56:49 What I mean is like: 23:57:27 The strings sort of represent queries in a SQL-like language, and the user might want to change what the query is looking for based on the value of a lexical variable. 23:57:42 why are you using lexical variables for that? 23:57:46 Like, they just did a calculation, and now they want to see if their data contains that result. 23:57:52 I'm not, the user might though. 23:58:09 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 23:58:27 i'm very confused .. the user provides a lexical environment and then code to execute in that environment? 23:58:46 Possibly. 23:59:03 The code is in a string, remember. 23:59:19 this is nonsense to me. 23:59:26 That's nice. 23:59:50 what kind of code is in this string .. .why would it have to access the lexical environment of the host lisp, and what possible utility is there to that approach?