00:00:54 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:15 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-214-225.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:01:32 Paraselene [n=Not@79-67-214-225.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:09 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has quit [] 00:08:46 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:06 coffeemug [n=coffeemu@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:23 leif [n=leif@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:07 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-96-255-111-135.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:14:44 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-53-236.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:19 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:17:39 syamajal1 [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:48 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:18:50 -!- demmel_ [n=demmel@p5B0C0292.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 00:19:08 -!- syamajal1 is now known as syamajala 00:19:17 -!- leif [n=leif@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:19:22 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:20:08 Quadrescence [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #lisp 00:24:37 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.174.160] has joined #lisp 00:24:44 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:25:22 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 00:26:00 -!- coffeemug [n=coffeemu@c-69-181-142-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"] 00:30:14 Okay, I hate this. Is /usr/local/lib not in the default library search path or something? This is insane. 00:30:32 hefner, I had problems with this earlier myself, when trying to set up ECL... 00:31:55 it isn't, it totally isn't. I have to add /usr/local/lib to LD_LIBRARY_PATH to load my library. This is surreal. 00:32:14 yep, I had to do the same. 00:32:25 which distro are you running? 00:32:32 debian lenny 00:33:02 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@84.131.205.180] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:33:18 I guess this is a problem in the debian/ubuntu family, then. 00:33:31 It's still around in Ubuntu 9.04... 00:34:39 hefner: change loader settings 00:34:51 /etc/ld.so.conf 00:35:12 for some reason some distros stopped placing /usr/local/lib in it 00:35:48 my current policy is not to change anything on my linux machines, except the entire x11 setup 00:37:11 and if /etc/ld.so.conf.d/libc.conf is to be believed, /usr/local/lib actually is in the search path, and I'm not sure I want to learn enough about ld.so to understand why this doesn't work, given that I've already kludged around it. 00:38:22 hefner: run ldconfig 00:38:33 I did. 00:38:37 serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-187-156.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:39:13 hefner: grep yourlibrary /etc/ld.so.cache 00:39:17 ah, I bet it doesn't like me. 00:39:56 Don't anthopomorphize computers. They hate that. 00:40:39 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:42:35 lol, compuserve shut down. they were still running PDP-10s 00:43:36 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:44:21 I think ldconfig can sense that my library smells different than the others, and won't touch it. 00:45:26 hefner: in what sense is it different ? 00:45:40 I couldn't say. 00:45:56 but I'll flail around a little longer and maybe figure it out. 00:46:09 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1DF40.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:46:28 try ldd on that library 00:48:00 hefner: did you compile that library on the same machine where you're trying to use it now ? 00:48:24 I did. The only shady thing is that I renamed the .so file. 00:48:50 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.174.160] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:48:52 how did you compile it ? 00:50:27 ah, there's some magic going on here. it knows the library name, regardless of the file name. 00:51:40 I don't understand why this linker is such a kludge, anyway. 00:51:43 hefner: --soname perhaps ? 00:52:00 hefner: see man ld wrt. --soname 00:52:21 yeah. this is just my own copy of libmpg123. Now I guess I get to take its makefile apart and figure out how to change this. 00:53:11 hefner: why not go with libmad instead ? 00:53:37 because that would require rewriting swaths of perfectly working code, whereas my immediate priority is to make this stupid binary and move on to something else. 00:53:46 pjb, what do you need from libusb? 00:54:23 ..and for all I know, libmad will just turn out to be braindead too. 00:54:23 pjb, and if its Lisp you're using it from, are you aware of lh-usb? 00:55:33 Ok, sleep I go. 00:56:01 deepfire: no I don't know about lh-usb. 00:56:48 From it's home page it seems to be sbcl-specific. I'm writting a cffi layer on libusb. 00:57:29 Ultimately, the pupose is to deal with Thrustmaster HOTAS cougar on linux and macosx, and as side effect to contribute a nice usb CFFI library ;-) 00:58:09 shared libraries can also have rpaths in them, if they are specified at linking time 00:58:29 then ld.so.conf or LD_LIBRARY_PATH don't need to include the path to them 00:58:30 commmmodo [n=commmmod@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 00:58:49 I never understood rpaths. 00:59:14 of course that won't help if using dlopen(2) however, possibly cffi uses such a feature 00:59:30 then the paths that matter would be controled from lisp 01:00:45 -!- ausente is now known as Eu_falo_AreBB\ti 01:00:55 rather, rpath is in the executables linked against the shared library, not in the shared library, my first sentence wasn't totally correct 01:00:55 -!- Eu_falo_AreBB\ti is now known as Eu_falo_AreBB\tk 01:00:55 fe[nl]ix: they weren't actually running PDP-10, they've got some mutated variant produced just for them, iirc with some addressing extensions 01:01:51 hefner: it's simple: instead of putting in the ELF header just the name of the deps and letting the linker resolve them at load-time, you hardcode the absolute paths(rpath) to those libraries 01:02:53 any idea if (randam 1d0) includes 0 and 1? 01:03:25 leo2007: includes 0, not 1. 01:03:53 Adlai pasted "SBCL problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83033 01:04:02 leo2007: Returns a pseudo-random number that is a non-negative number less than limit and of the same type as limit. 01:04:15 This cannot be clearer. 01:04:25 I'm having a problem with SBCL's macroexpansion of a setf-expansion which includes compiled functions. 01:05:07 pjb: thanks 01:05:27 That paste has 4 parts -- two files, a bit of SBCL's compiler output, and a SLIME macroexpansion of the form which generated the bugs. 01:06:03 leo2007: now, a good exercise would be to build a RNG that would produce [0.0,1.0] with equiprobability... 01:06:32 (It's rather easy, thank to floating points). 01:06:48 based on random? 01:06:53 Adlai annotated #83033 "How CCL deals with this setf expansion" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83033#1 01:07:03 leo2007: yes. 01:07:23 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-34-164.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:08:09 (random 1.0) will miss 1.0 01:08:40 Can somebody please take a look at the two setf expansions? It seems to me as though this is a bug with SBCL. 01:08:58 leo2007: yes, so you have to find another limit. 01:09:04 (although I'm probably wrong...) 01:09:04 pjb: -1 01:09:13 No. 01:10:13 pjb: i mean generate (-1, 0] + 1 to get (0, 1.0] 01:10:30 then average with (random 1.0) 01:10:54 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-188-098-221-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:11:02 leo2007: the solution is easier. 01:11:23 Adlai: # is a notation for printing big sexps. See *print-length* and *print-depth*. 01:12:03 Is that affecting the errors from SBCL? The entire thing doesn't make sense, and those setf-expansions just confuse things further. 01:12:24 *Adlai* tries the macroexpansion with *print-length* and *print-depth* both at NIL 01:12:27 Those setf-expansions are identical AFAISI 01:13:00 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has quit ["'Lenny' -> 'testing'"] 01:13:04 then why is SBCL generating errors, while CCL compiles it? 01:13:20 maybe it uses something i don't know 01:13:42 (random (+ 1.0d0 double-float-epsilon)) 01:14:20 pjb: I actually suspected that 01:14:32 Adlai: The error message is clear: Objects of type FUNCTION can't be dumped into fasl files. 01:14:55 Adlai: avoid to insert in the expansion a (function ...). 01:16:04 Adlai: when you write it directly, you don't do that. You write: :test (function equal), not :test #.(function equal); generate the same. (list ':test '(function equal)) or simply: `(:test (function equal)), not (list :test (function equal) or `(,:test ,(function equal)). 01:17:05 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:15 Adlai: when you write a macro (or a setf expander, you must always know when the things are evaluated. 01:17:31 I think I see. Let me try and fix it. 01:18:12 leo2007: have you an idea of the number of double-floats between 0.0d0 and 1.0d0? 01:18:46 pjb: 1d0 / double-float-epsilon 01:19:25 Close. 01:19:28 (expt 2 53) 01:20:23 pjb: why 53? 01:20:24 So you should get 1.0d0 with a probability of 1/9007199254740993 01:21:17 IEEE-754 double floats have 53 bits of mantissa. 01:21:29 For single-floats that'd be 23 bits. 01:22:04 minion: tell leo2007 about floating-point 01:22:04 leo2007: have a look at floating-point: What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic http://docs-pdf.sun.com/800-7895/800-7895.pdf http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=103163 http://focus.hut.fi/docs/WorkShop/common/ug/goldberg1.doc.html 01:22:29 pjb, thank you very much, for two things -- 01:22:55 *not* telling me where to fix, but giving me a pointer at the general idea of what was wrong, 01:23:06 and having the patience to look at that disorganized lisppaste 01:23:13 :-) 01:23:31 I was too lazy to debug it :-) 01:23:49 well, either way, the problem is solved and you helped :) 01:24:11 I tried at first to change the expansion code, but the real solution was much simpler; 01:24:19 (in fact, very similar to what you said in your comment) 01:24:30 I just added quoting to the default values in the lambda-list. 01:24:49 jmbr___ [n=jmbr@118.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 01:24:56 Right. 01:25:21 But what would happen if the user callde the macro with (function equal)? 01:26:15 whichever arg would get bound to that value would have the *literal* value (function equal) 01:26:33 and that's the value which would get unquoted into various parts of the expansion. 01:27:23 I think that the problem was with the default values, not supplied values 01:27:27 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-208-213.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 01:27:51 Yes, it's a setf expander, not a macro. I was thinking "macro". 01:28:11 chessguy_ [n=chessguy@pool-96-255-111-135.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:28 What would be the difference, though? 01:28:32 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-136.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:28:37 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 01:28:38 -!- cyb3r3li0g [n=eguzman@63.100.62.66] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:28:41 (other than the pita form of defining setf expansions...) 01:29:20 But it's the same for setf-expanders, they receive their argument unevaluated. 01:29:22 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:30:16 So it's ok, since as you said, the argument won't be evaluated, so we get the list (function equal), not the evaluated #. So it's all good. 01:31:04 I think that a setf-expander is a macro -- define-setf-expansion is just an elaborate macro-defining macro. 01:31:10 Yes. 01:31:15 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:32 maybe macro-extending macro is the technically right term, because the macro itself is already *defined*. 01:31:40 anyways, thank you for the help. 01:33:03 moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 01:33:03 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:33:26 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:34:57 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-28-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:38:08 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-48-44-143.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:39:59 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-48-44-143.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:40:16 -!- Nshag 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-!- fvw_ [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.77] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:41:11 domiel [n=dnj@58.172.210.231] has joined #lisp 04:43:55 -!- domiel [n=dnj@58.172.210.231] has quit [Client Quit] 04:48:00 lake [n=irchon@166.137.5.138] has joined #lisp 04:50:10 -!- lake [n=irchon@166.137.5.138] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:54:33 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:55:36 is it possible to write a CLX application that uses the system tray? 04:55:38 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:56:10 probably. I'm not aware of anyone having done it. 04:56:11 icylisper [n=user@115.99.32.68] has joined #lisp 04:57:33 dto: certainly, though I'm not sure on the protocol 04:57:59 it involved creating a window with certain attributes, iirc 04:58:35 i wrote some CLX code that could be used for fancy graphical menus and even some other stuff like plugging things together, might have been an interesting shell. anyway i thought it might be fun to put that in the tray. 04:58:48 want to see? i think i still have a screenshot 04:59:18 screenshot plz 04:59:24 http://dto.github.com/notebook/clframe.html 04:59:39 as you can tell i have not touched it since 2006 04:59:46 it was my first experiment in CL 05:00:10 nifty. 05:00:31 dto: looks cool 05:00:43 i've been using the Awesome window manager for a few days now. i thought of adding this menu 05:00:58 people who've seen Pure Data will know where my dataflow widget look is stolen from :) 05:01:10 p_l: yeah i've been looking for an excuse to work on it again 05:01:29 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-148-7-32.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:01:47 yours looks a little less baffling than pd 05:02:11 a worthy goal. 05:02:18 i love pd tho. 05:03:40 hmm. the code link is not working. hold on. anyone want to look? 05:03:43 i can put it up on github 05:06:05 fusss [i=73801a65@gateway/web/freenode/x-6125bb691baf12d9] has joined #lisp 05:06:59 hmm for the icon tray gadget you might want to check the freedesktop.org site, I think they're defining/maintaining the compatibility APIs for various window managers and applications to interoperate 05:07:36 phadthai: fortunately they are not really the ones who wrote it 05:08:19 if clsql:def-view-class accepted the allegedly supported :db-constraint :key :auto-increment, I would have had to write (defun next-table-id (table &optional (id 'id)) (1+ (or (car (sort (mapcar #'car (select id :from table)) #'>) 0)) 05:08:32 wouldN'T 05:08:49 fusss: I'd prefer it to simply have the type "serial" 05:09:10 clsql is almost perfect 05:09:23 if you can fuck with SELECT sufficiently to have it return the right thing 05:10:11 *p_l* has still little problems with d-v-c syntax 05:10:34 (select 'table :where :id=1) returns the first table as an # while (select 'table :where 'id=1) returns it as a '((row, of, records)) 05:11:34 p_l: see clsql/sql/ooddl.lisp; d-v-c is a thin wrapper around defclass 05:12:39 hefner, p_l : http://github.com/dto/cl-frame/tree/master 05:13:05 i am still figuring how the join slots work; so far I am just returning objects from the database and doing my own filtering in CL (which is bad, becuase standard-db-objects aren't GC'ed) 05:13:31 fusss: I notices that. Though I'm still pondering writing my own macro to make it more friendly towards what I'm used to (and I'll have to add new types, it seems) 05:13:54 fusss: that's my problems as well - the docs on joins are sketchy 05:14:30 you still have every imaginable SQL function under SQL-FOO; do your own stuff in SQL 05:15:14 fusss: yeah, but having primary keys as sequences instead of integers would be nice 05:15:48 helpful debuggin tools: START-SQL-RECORDING, SQL-EXPRESSION , etc. 05:16:16 p_l: *any* key can be a primary key, fwiw 05:17:19 *phadthai* looks for the "any" key 05:17:56 -!- sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:17:58 fusss: yes, but sequences are nice 05:19:01 p_l: i don't even understand what that means. how are sequences better than T (the union of all types)? 05:21:28 fusss: I mean that they are nicer than integer with auto-increment :P 05:22:46 so you want a generalized generator :-) 05:23:09 cdwillis [n=dwm@c-98-223-195-59.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:15 saikat_ [n=saikat@pool-71-163-70-52.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:04 i am trying to use --eval in attachtty to attach(swank) to a running image. (ref http://boinkor.net/lisp/startup/start-stop-lisp-image) . I try to: attachtty /var/run/lisp/httpserver.socket --eval '(let ((*debug-io* (make-broadcast-stream))) (require :swank) (funcall (intern "CREATE-SERVER" :swank) :dont-close t :port '"4006))", but swank does not start up. Any ideas how to attach(swank) to a running image ? 05:28:14 fusss: also, I got pampered by DataMapper :P 05:37:43 vng [n=demen@123.20.5.92] has joined #lisp 05:37:50 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 05:41:34 oh well, I'll make a testbed with something like cl-prevalence and add database later 05:47:53 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host26.190-137-245.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:49:36 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:51:26 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@pool-71-163-70-52.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:54:40 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-53-236.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:59:31 raboof_ [n=nospam@adsl-216-103-89-198.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:45 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:59:53 commmmodo [n=commmmod@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 06:04:19 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 06:04:59 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 06:07:57 -!- fusss [i=73801a65@gateway/web/freenode/x-6125bb691baf12d9] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 06:09:30 elderK [n=elderK@222-152-95-210.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:09:51 hey guys, 06:10:01 I was wondering if anyone has some links to some good articles 06:10:06 Trying to relax, do a little reading :) 06:10:35 like, say, advantages of lisp, scheme. 06:10:43 techniques or such like. 06:10:46 oh yeah 06:10:49 I'm just about done with PCL 06:10:55 what's a good next thing to read? 06:11:01 No idea. 06:11:14 I've been working mostly with Scheme which has prompted me to investigate CL. 06:11:24 *Ralith* was asking the channel at large 06:11:27 But, a lot of people consider CL as bloated. Which raises the question - bloated in comparison to what? 06:11:37 You could try PAIP, Ralith. 06:11:37 elderK: in comparison to assembly, probably. 06:11:58 Well, I'd be curious to see how bloated CL is in comparison to other modern langauges, say, C++ or even C#. 06:12:00 CL is lightweight compared to java, and even C++ probably; let alone python and friends. 06:12:06 Aye. 06:12:09 that's what I figured. 06:12:11 CL's reputation as 'bloated' is a holdover from days long past 06:12:17 Pretty much everything is bloated compared to C. 06:12:20 So, that is to be expected. 06:12:32 CL is plagued by numerous completely false myths. 06:12:43 -!- Eu_falo_AreBB\tk is now known as ausente 06:12:44 Aye - I'd be interested on reading about them, too. 06:12:44 :) 06:12:57 *Ralith* can't remember offhand any great pages 06:13:01 The major draw for me, at least for CL from Scheme, is the standardization. 06:13:18 the general philosophy of how to do things in CL-land is the very definition of bloat, but these days it's irrelevant 06:13:21 http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhyWeLoveLisp perhaps? 06:13:33 Cheers 06:13:36 hefner: how so? 06:13:42 (re: bloat, not irrelevancy) 06:13:44 how do you mean, hefner? Surely you can write highly efficient code in CL. 06:14:11 elderK: sure, but a few tight loops has nothing to do with bloat 06:14:13 elderK: imo CL's real advantage over Scheme (and countless other languages) is that you can use it however you like; you're not forced into any particular paradigm. 06:14:33 having an ANSI standard is just a neat aside. 06:14:37 Well aye, but with Lisps Ra, that's a given. :) 06:14:51 elderK: not necessarily. Scheme strongly encourages functional programming, for example. 06:14:59 (though I don't know if that's technical or cultural) 06:15:06 it's cultural. 06:15:13 'kay 06:15:15 What's the culture here?:) 06:15:21 in the strict Lisp world, not Scheme. 06:15:22 varied. 06:15:22 :) 06:15:37 bloat is wrapping everything in nice first class wrappers, converting back and forth to no productive end, and not enforcing the compile/runtime distinction well enough not to generally end up with the whole compilation environment inside your application, regardless of whether you plan to use it again or not 06:15:39 I'm no authority but I'd say you can find whatever culture you want in the CL world. 06:15:44 and hey, hef, would you mind elaborating more? 06:15:57 hefner: ah. Those all sound like fun things to do to me anyway. 06:16:02 on the other hand, these things are also features, depending on your perspective. 06:16:08 exactly. 06:16:19 first class wrappers? You mean, like, closures and what not? 06:16:30 *Ralith* has in fact gone through two or three languages before finding lisp in his quest to integrate the whole compilation environment conveniently with an app 06:16:52 Also, surely it would be possible to build a standing binary without the CE? 06:17:00 elderK: depends what you mean. 06:17:24 elderK: you can make executable standalone binaries, yes, but they tend to include the lisp compiler. 06:17:28 elderK: no, closures are actually useful. 06:17:34 (although I don't think it's always strictly necessary to do so) 06:17:36 well, if you are concerned with size and speed, could you not compile the program to have only what it strictly requires? Turn off all the bound checks and suchlike, when you know the program is sane? 06:17:48 (so optimizing it out may not be theoretically impossible) 06:18:25 Well guys, compared to both of you, I'm a newcomer :) 06:18:34 on every other day I'll argue instead that small standalone binaries are lifeless shells of software betraying the very spirit of personal computing, but I don't think there's any harm in arguing both sides 06:18:36 Hefner, what first class objects do you refer? :) 06:18:36 elderK: afaik, all features like that are implementation-defined; the standard does not require support for any such optimizations. 06:18:51 that said, such optimizations are proposed in the standard and are implemented widely with varying success. 06:19:11 I've worked mostly in the 'small', for embedded devices and such. Drivers..... 06:19:27 but, I find it hard to see Lisp as "fat and slow" compared to the likes of C#, Python, Ruby... 06:19:31 elderK: any time you convert something to a more "lispy" representation, generally. 06:19:32 you may have a hard time fitting a modern CL into very small embedded hardware. 06:19:45 elderK: lisp can approach C in performance in some cases. 06:19:49 hefner: it reminds me a little of Chicken Scheme delivery system - it doesn't do tree shaking, it simply kicks compiler/interpreter out if you tell it to 06:19:52 when optimizations are explicitly enabled of course 06:20:31 elderK: the shootout will show you, for example, that lisp can be hundreds of times faster than python. 06:20:48 as meaningful as that may or may not be 06:21:07 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-224-119.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:21:15 well, it depends onc ontext. 06:21:21 obviously, I wouldn't use lisp for embedded stuff. 06:21:24 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 06:21:37 I'm simply looking for a language to use when /serious/ performance isn't necessary. 06:21:41 like, say, for fun projects. 06:21:45 imo lisp is perfect for that. 06:21:56 it's just, there is a different between 'slower than C' and 'really, really slow' 06:22:04 it's far from the latter. 06:22:09 where CL lays on that, is what I'm curious about :) 06:22:11 Say, Java. 06:22:16 I wouldn't consider Java "fast" 06:22:23 java's actually pretty fast these days, I hear 06:22:23 even on modern systems, Java is and can be a PITA. 06:22:29 same with .NET 06:22:29 it's just really really hard on your memory 06:22:34 if java is slow, it's probably more about programming style. 06:22:38 Aye. 06:22:42 I agree with you, hefner. 06:22:46 you know, bloat :) 06:22:47 Java /can/ be fast. 06:22:51 i haven't had any pleasent experiences with java 06:22:55 but most times, java code is written by idiots. 06:22:55 P 06:23:01 elderK: lisp is fast enough that you don't need to worry about speed unless you really need to worry about speed; that's all you really need to know. 06:23:20 How to put it. 06:23:24 I've read tons online about hte pros of Lisp. 06:23:25 and even when you do really need to worry about speed, enabling some optimizations may well take care of that. 06:23:31 and I know them reasonably well :) from my use of Scheme. 06:23:36 But, I'd like ot know the /practical downsides/ 06:23:37 of Lisp 06:23:40 Does that make sense? 06:23:40 :) 06:23:44 Like, I'm already sold on why lisp rules 06:23:45 :) 06:23:46 yeah 06:23:50 I follow 06:23:58 elderK: also, java -server is much different from -client :) 06:23:58 okay, disadvantages 06:24:07 :) 06:24:11 (btw, thanks guys) 06:24:18 there aren't as many libs as you might find for other languages; you may have to reinvent the wheel somewhat. 06:24:27 people will look at you funny. 06:24:36 :P That's fine. I'm a low-level programmer - I reinvent the wheel (better :P) all the time. 06:24:53 you'll probably have to learn emacs. 06:24:59 funny thing - people who don't know about programming might be easier to talk into using CL 06:25:06 *p_l* did that 06:25:08 quite possibly true. 06:25:12 I'd agree with that. 06:25:19 there's an awful stigma. 06:25:33 well, not always awful, but ultimately detrimental. 06:25:41 It feels embarrassing to admit, as an experienced coder, that the most difficult part of understanding (even approaching) Scheme/Lisp was unlearning what I already knew. 06:25:57 Years of using conventional languages kind of bends your mind into seeing in a certain way. 06:26:01 Not that you are 'dumbed' down or anything, 06:26:05 elderK: as for small, lightweight CL, you might be interested in ECL 06:26:09 it's just, Lisp /is/ different. 06:26:25 *Ralith* found the most difficult part to be realizing that lisp isn't buried in inches of dust. 06:26:47 -!- carbocal` [n=user@75-119-234-173.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:26:52 -!- Drakeson [n=user@69-165-133-213.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:26:53 and, for the most part, Lisp (especially scheme) is /vastly/ different in approach than pretty much everything out there - kind of in the boat with Haskell and what not (Not meaning FP like, but, different) 06:26:58 dust? 06:27:15 as in, of only historical interest 06:27:32 :) Lately when I was explaining Scheme to a friend (selling a friend :P lol), I came across a statement (that to myself) was really, really true. 06:27:34 And that is, 06:27:40 *Ralith* came to lisp by way of haskell, so was already open to the idea of things being very different 06:28:01 Lisp/Scheme, is by far the simplest language around. But it's so simple, that you don't really see it until you walk RIGHT into it. 06:28:03 You know? :) 06:28:14 yeah, that sounds just about right 06:28:16 At least, that's how it worked for me. 06:28:19 I came from Assembly and C :) 06:28:27 My mind is /very much/ geared to that kind of... world. 06:28:35 Especially with the machine-level stuff. 06:28:38 Since you know, you can't really escape it. 06:28:43 So, Lisp was very, very... hard on me. 06:28:47 elderK: have you played with (disassemble ...) yet? :) 06:28:52 coming from haskell, I was very happy to find that it didn't feel like studying high-level math so much as just writing out what I wanted the computer to do. 06:29:10 But, the more I ... stopped... the usual reaction, I think, 06:29:44 the "this isn't right, this is just, it has to be wrong! I mean, it's going against the machine!?" type crap (which really, I decided was just my own fear of having to learn something REALLY new, which, you don't get when you are new to programming or, when you are young :P) 06:29:51 and hte more I started using it, 06:29:53 well, 06:29:56 I've warmed up to it a lot. 06:29:56 :) 06:29:59 a /lot/ 06:30:10 to the point where I don't really want to work in C, if I can avoid it. 06:30:10 :) 06:30:48 p_l, no, I haven't. I haven't really messed with CL yet, just Scheme. :) 06:31:08 elderK: Well, I don't have anything against working in C, but god save me from university lectures with BlueJ... and Java in XMonad is a PITA 06:31:16 I'm approaching CL, regardless of the myths, in the hopes of a more standardized environment and well, better ways to interact with legacy (ie: the world :P) 06:31:22 hah. BlueJ. 06:31:32 p_l: java in xmonad? wtf? 06:31:36 :P The sad thing, at least, that I think, 06:31:45 elderK: I hear cffi is nice; haven't used it myself. 06:31:47 yet. 06:31:51 I'm sure I will eventually, though. 06:32:01 linking to C is one of those things you always have to do at some point. 06:32:07 is that with Scheme (and If igure Lisp, too), is that to interact with "outside libraries"(C, etc) really... hurts :P because, the world is os much less elegant... 06:32:17 cl-newb [n=John@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:30 I wonder if coming to Lisp, and having this kind of weird transformation is like what people experience when they become devout XXXXians/ics/whatever. 06:32:30 I can't speak from my own experience, but I've heard nothing but good things about CFFI. 06:32:39 :) 06:32:53 the few examples I've skimmed have seemed very intuitive and simple. 06:32:53 What I've read of SBCL's manual so far seems pretty encouraging. 06:32:54 :) 06:33:06 Ralith: running Swing GUIs under XMonad 06:33:16 Hopefully there aren't any Schemers in here, otherwise I'm going to get badly slammed :; 06:33:18 But, so far :P 06:33:22 p_l: ah, yeah, I noticed that java GUIs fail hard in there. 06:33:30 You #lisp folks seem a LOT less stuffy than the #scheme group. 06:33:35 which I have to say, is jsut, well, a relief. 06:33:36 :) 06:33:39 hehe 06:33:40 elderK: for interfacing with C, SWIG is very nice. C++ fails, though 06:33:46 I have dualhead and all mouse clicks were interpreted as relative to the middle of the screen 06:34:02 so to use any of the GUI I had to float the app and position it perfectly centered 06:34:14 I thought it was just the tiling throwing it off, but stumpwm handles the same app nicely. 06:34:42 p_l: there's no C++->lisp swig? 06:34:46 See, I'm largely self taught, practical guy. It's weird - I can understand the principles and practicalities of many things that the high-university folk talk about, or allude to, just, the big words beat me over the head sometimes. Mostly because I discovered stuff myself, tinkering. Trial and error, you know? :) 06:34:55 *elderK* grabs a coffee, points to jug 06:35:00 Anyone want some coffee? :) 06:35:05 *elderK* meanders to jug 06:35:06 ^_^ 06:35:17 Ralith: there is, but for CFFI it's rather flaky. ACL FFI backend has much better support 06:35:27 elderK: I know what you mean; one of the things I like about lisp, having came from haskell, is that things are treated in a nice straightforward fasion. 06:35:34 Aye. 06:35:41 p_l: ACL is commercial and thus doesn't count. 06:35:55 I freaking hate people who use like, 40 giant words to explain something that could be said simply... it just, bugs me. 06:35:57 or perhaps I should say nonfree 06:35:58 *p_l* would like a coffee, but has only instant stuff (because dumb packaging led to broken press) 06:36:26 And, the weird thing is, it bugs me even MORE when they are using giant words that I understand perfectly. 06:36:36 elderK: yeah. I can't really object too much, as I use plenty of jargon myself, but people can really make terminology get in the way. 06:36:42 Ralith: "commercial". Period. And it does count, at least from my perspective (I was considering deploying on ACL some apps in the future) 06:36:53 Well, using jargon and 'talking up' are different things. 06:36:58 You can use jargon to /help/. 06:37:04 and in a lot of places, jargon is needed. 06:37:21 or, you can use terminology and jargon, just to try and show you are smart, which just @!#$s me off hardcore 06:37:21 true. 06:37:21 :) 06:37:40 perhaps it's that haskell is a realm of academics, and maybe lisp got over that thirty years ago? 06:37:41 Whether someone is intelligent or not, will show in the code they produce - not in the words they use. 06:37:41 :) 06:37:43 imho. 06:38:01 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.140.108] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:38:18 :) Talent and determination, to me at least, are more valuable than big words and stuffy attitudes :) 06:38:20 which is why, so far, 06:38:26 you guys by far, rule over #scheme 06:38:26 :P 06:38:31 < end rant > 06:38:31 :) 06:38:57 and Ralith man, I hope you're right :) 06:39:02 about what>? 06:39:03 and emacs doesn't scare me :) 06:39:12 that's good, because it's an awesome tool if you're willing to learn it. 06:39:13 Lisp having grown past that all. 06:39:16 ah. 06:39:24 it's certainly had plenty of time 06:39:36 I feel kidn of bad saying what I have here, but, I don't know. It just had to be said, you know? :) 06:39:46 hah, totally. I mean, Lisp is what? 50 years old! 06:39:57 Really must read about Lambda calculus at some point, like, in detail. 06:40:26 the thing I like about lisp, though, is I don't feel like I need to do that if I want to write anything substantial. 06:40:28 My concern now isn't to learn the basics of Lisp or Scheme, but, how to put what I've learnt to use :) 06:40:46 elderK: throw yourself at some task with CL in hand :P 06:41:00 Understand the whys of the idioms and techniques in wide use. Use lisp, like lisp was meant to be used :D 06:41:14 :P Like C. C is hard and fast :P A language tailored for the hacker at heart! :P 06:41:26 (hard being, you give it, you get it :P) 06:41:39 (garage hacker style! :P) 06:41:43 and occasionally you segfault. 06:41:49 ;) which is all part of the fun. 06:42:02 that's my pet peeve in on-the-metal langs 06:42:05 you write some elaborate bit of code 06:42:06 run it 06:42:11 Now that i've been working in C for ... well, ages, segfaulting and bugs are probably the most fun I have with C these days... 06:42:14 Its easy to get code doing what you want. 06:42:15 and it segfaults with no immediately obvious reason. 06:42:19 Makign it perfect is the fun part. 06:42:19 :) 06:42:44 heh :) I hear you man. 06:42:58 :P Ever spend literally days, just searching for that one elusive bug? 06:43:03 yeah 06:43:08 :P Weird as it is, I've had some of the most ever doing that! 06:43:19 *most fun ever 06:43:20 :) 06:43:20 I think CL has improved my C programming tremendously. I no longer feel guilty about doing things in the "neatest" or "cleanest" way, secure in the knowledge that if I wanted to optimize in that dimension, I could do it 10x better in CL. 06:43:52 er, about *not* doing things in the ... way 06:44:07 That is the beauty of C though. 06:44:14 In C, you are expected to flow hard. 06:44:21 Take it to the machine. 06:44:27 You /are/ the machine in C :) 06:44:27 ^_^ 06:44:41 and when it all goes well, man, it goes /well/ 06:44:43 and even with debugging, 06:44:57 you tend to learn a great deal - which means that the bugs tend not to happena gain. 06:45:24 the difference though with Scheme, is that, well, you have more freedom to just, play with ideas. 06:45:30 It's WAY better for testing ideas out. 06:45:30 :) 06:45:46 far less boring crap has to be done to try crazy things :) 06:46:01 of course 06:46:07 :P thats what sold me. 06:46:08 :P 06:46:09 elderK: the problem is when you find that what causes the segfault is not in code you wrote, but because of some intricate business in linker... 06:46:24 p_l, that's when it gets interesting :P 06:46:25 there is a certain rare beauty in a piece of clean, efficient, bug-free C code 06:46:31 the part that SUCKS, without a doubt, 06:46:41 grr [n=phal@93-138-46-248.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 06:46:47 is when the bug is in the system, libraries you can't really effect or, yeah, in the compiler or linker itself. 06:46:54 elderK: I gave up at some point, pointing out that it's over the budget 06:47:00 :P that just leaves you seething in anger. 06:47:00 :P 06:47:29 :) 06:47:33 tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p923e6b.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:47:48 I spose I should read "On Lisp" 06:47:53 I wish people wouldn't say nonsense about C :) 06:47:57 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:47:59 Anyone else here have trouble kind of, reading comfortably via PDF? 06:48:02 nonsense? 06:48:05 Once they get into that, it's so much easier to start saying nonsense about CL. 06:48:14 Hey Zhivago :) 06:48:56 Relax ;) I'm one of the folks that sees languages as tools :P everything has its pros and cons. 06:49:00 is paip online anywhere, or does it have to be deadtree'd? 06:49:10 I can send you a pirated PDF, Ralith . 06:49:11 :P 06:49:13 but shh... 06:49:16 *elderK* eyes dart upwards 06:49:19 *elderK* puts on tinfoil hat 06:49:19 :) 06:49:23 :P 06:49:30 Well, then less of "You /are/ the machine in C" :p 06:49:34 just hit a library ;-) 06:49:36 I think you have to be open to languages in general to like lisp 06:49:40 How do I create a string literal that contains both " and '? 06:49:46 In C, you operate in the C Abstract Machine. 06:49:48 otherwise you'd still be caught up on C++ or C# or python or something 06:49:58 ahaas: escape them. 06:50:00 ahaas: escape them 06:50:04 haha 06:50:06 awesome. 06:50:19 In that regard, it is no different to CL. 06:50:21 aw, you got there first and with a period to boot. 06:50:30 How? I thought it was just \", but that is printing the entire \" 06:50:37 Just a primitive and nastier machine. 06:50:41 ahaas: what is 'that'? 06:51:09 Zhivago: I don't know how to express it, but to me, the highpoints in any language - that time when you are totally "in the zone", you are the machine. It's like, you punch out the code (in whatever language) and it's all clicking, it's all just, jiving in line. You are in the zone, you are in the hack. You know? 06:51:13 But that isn't specific to a single language :) 06:51:28 *Chris* vomits. 06:51:29 Just for me personally, because Im far more proficient in C, it's easier for me to get into that zone in that language. 06:51:58 But man, I'm totally keen to get to that point in Lisp. 06:51:59 elder: int a[3]; what is the type of a? 06:52:10 a pointer to integer? 06:52:16 yep 06:52:17 Ralith: The printer. 06:52:18 pointer. 06:52:23 Heh. 06:52:24 -!- cl-newb [n=John@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:52:28 ahaas: what is the printer? 06:52:34 :P the printer :P 06:52:34 You both fail. Stop talking about C in #lisp, and go and learn the language if you want to. 06:52:35 It's an int[3]. 06:52:59 Zhivago: I don't fail. It depends on how you want to look at it. 06:53:07 -!- jmbr___ is now known as jmbr 06:53:12 No, it doesn't. Come to ##c and I'll show you why. 06:53:18 cl-newb [n=John@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:53:37 fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.77] has joined #lisp 06:53:55 Ralith: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_aa.htm 06:54:38 ahaas: that is expected behavior. 06:54:51 iow, the function isn't meant for what you think it's meant for 06:55:29 Ralith: I'm just asking how you escape a character. 06:55:31 hi, elderK. First time on this list, but I'm a Lisp 'old-timer' of sorts, and a schemer too. You should definitely read "On Lisp". Macros are where it's at in Lisp, and are at the core of what is truly distinctive about Lisp, at least in the "modern" (post 1975 or so) style. 06:55:40 ahaas: with a backslash. 06:55:49 ahaas: that isn't the question you asked earlier, though. 06:56:05 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:56:33 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest9502 06:57:53 Zhivago: iirc anything with arrays is a pointer (I remember something about how [n] was just a shortcut) 06:58:16 p_l: A common misconception -- arrays evaluate to pointer to their first element. 06:58:38 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 06:59:15 Zhivago: Well, I was just trying to remember what my copy of ANSI C said 06:59:45 ahaas: the answer to the question that you should be asking is (format t "~a" your-string-here) 06:59:51 kunday [n=kunday@117.193.137.92] has joined #lisp 07:04:59 [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.93] has joined #lisp 07:05:40 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@216-228-28-218-static.dsl.redshift.com] has joined #lisp 07:06:05 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-95-210.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 07:06:36 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-71-56-34-130.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:06:44 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:07:56 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 07:09:14 p_l: if that were true, sizeof(array) wouldn't do what you wanted 07:11:58 -!- dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:12:15 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:12:49 -!- Guest9502 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 07:12:50 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:15:13 Jabberwockey [n=jens@ip54517590.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 07:15:22 hefner: IIRC C is slightly irregular in its treatment of arrays 07:16:12 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@216-228-28-218-static.dsl.redshift.com] has quit [] 07:19:35 The only thing about C arrays is that they don't have values, so they instead evaluate to pointers to their first element. Otherwise they behave pretty much regularly. 07:20:17 The shortcut you are referring to is that a[n] is *((a) + (n)) 07:20:46 And this "works" because of the above property of array evaluation. 07:21:02 ooh, that's interesting. 07:21:11 so the arrays actually *are* their own type. 07:21:22 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:22 they're just kind of screwy. 07:21:34 right. I didn't remember the exact wording (plus I would have to retranslate from polish). 07:21:38 Ralith: Otherwise how would multidimensional array access work? 07:21:52 -!- kunday [n=kunday@117.193.137.92] has quit [] 07:21:56 Zhivago: I dunno, I've never had much need for multidimensional arrays :P 07:22:01 -!- deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:22:03 -!- cl-newb [n=John@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:22:22 always sort of assumed you'd just have an array of pointers to first elements 07:22:42 C gives you arrays of arrays. 07:22:50 real ones? I didn't know that. 07:22:51 neat. 07:22:56 ams [n=ams@94.246.125.250] has joined #lisp 07:23:05 elisp is nicer than common lisp! 07:23:10 what 07:23:19 Is today troll day? 07:23:23 schme: yes. 07:23:26 have there been other trolls? 07:23:36 Ralith: I have no idea. I just woke up. 07:23:52 ah. So, probably no then. 07:23:56 first thing I see on the screen is that though :) 07:24:09 although I guess technically it's a new day here just half an hour ago 07:24:12 schme: that is cause i am so fond of you. 07:24:21 schme: and needed to lighten your day a bit 07:24:34 ams: That's very nice of you. 07:27:17 *p_l* wonders if he will see the kind of absurd he had once seen on #haskell... 07:27:30 ams: How about this one. F# is nicer than elisp. 07:27:54 -!- ams [n=ams@94.246.125.250] has left #lisp 07:29:12 schme: you scared him off! 07:29:29 artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has joined #lisp 07:29:52 Ralith: nah, not really scared. 07:30:12 I remember a "WTF!?" moment when #haskell out-trolled a troll 07:30:36 hehe 07:31:11 elderK [n=elderK@222-152-95-210.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:31:27 Zhivago: I just wanted to say man, that was really, really low. 07:34:01 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-28-92.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:35:00 so in order, lisp resources i have found useful (other than #lisp ;]) are Practical Common Lisp, Successful Lisp, and On Lisp. There's also a cookbook with samples 07:35:52 Demosthenes: I'd put the hyperspec at the top of that list. 07:36:28 Thanks! 07:36:55 -!- artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has left #lisp 07:37:07 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:37:14 the hyperspec is good, but just a "spec sheet" wasn't nearly as helpful as some of hte examples i found in those books 07:37:27 elderK: i'm about 3 weeks of part-time learning of lisp 07:37:52 thank you, Demosthenes. 07:37:55 i think someone mentioned java apps in xmonad earlier, yep. sucks eh? ;] 07:37:58 I'm just going off to read some Successful Lisp now. 07:38:09 I've got PAIP, I'm going to give that a whirl soon, too. 07:38:19 and yet, for all of the stability of CL, StumpWM crashed on me twice during the six hours i tested it, so i run xmonad 07:38:19 Demosthenes: What about java apps in xmonad? 07:38:32 issues with scaling and funny window management issues 07:38:33 Later! 07:38:40 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-95-210.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 07:38:47 Hmm.. I can't run java apps at all. I just get a big grey window. 07:39:02 So java sucks anyway :) 07:39:06 we knew that 07:39:14 but how else can i play Go on linux ;] 07:39:33 schme: you need to run them in Xephyr or Xnest 07:39:37 Right.. I have much the same issue with backgammon. 07:39:39 p_l: ? 07:39:40 schme: unless they use SWT 07:39:55 how strange. 07:40:02 Xephyr and Xnest are Xservers that use another X server as their display device 07:40:12 Yes. and it makes a difference? 07:40:37 schme: I run twm in them and Swing works with it ;P 07:40:59 stump only crashes occasionally for me, and that's when I'm not using it, and it restarts cleanly, so I still use it 07:41:07 hey, i just had one of the xmonad devs knockup an AWESOME way to spatially manage windows 07:41:16 p_l: That's horrible that one must do all that work. 07:41:33 I think I'll just finish the mcclim-backgammon client instead. seems easier. 07:41:41 Ralith: i'd be keen on using a WM i can hack, but i'm already settled into xmonad at this point 07:41:57 *Ralith* was settled into xmonad, but finds stump a bit nicer in a few important ways 07:42:06 schme: alternatives were worse 07:42:17 i was a 10 year user of enlightenment, and emulating tiling via static window placementand scripting 07:42:26 that and my keyboard macros made it nearly mouseless 07:42:34 i've got a working xmonad config that emulates all that now 07:42:43 java not working so well is a minor issue 07:42:45 sounds like a lot of work to replicate 07:42:56 still, gotta love xmonad's support for chained key chords. 07:42:57 yeah, its taken a few months to get settled in 07:42:58 er 07:42:59 stump's 07:43:07 nono... 07:43:41 control-arrows change workspace/screen, shift-arrows navigate apps on screen, control-shift-arrows change virtual desktop 07:43:43 p_l: You could just stop running the java apps :) 07:44:02 schme: that isn't an option when it's part of your coursework :P 07:44:25 I like the massive additional expressiveness and minimal conflicts offered by chaining chords 07:44:36 That's a bit interesting with java + xmonad. I had no idea that was what was causing it. Also factor's GUI does not work so nice with xmonad. Perhaps xmonad is seriously broken. 07:45:09 p_l: Sure it is! Just eeeh.. let's talk about something else. 07:45:19 schme: it actually relates to errors in X11 handling 07:45:27 in Java 07:45:34 Oh. 07:45:37 everything's broken. 07:46:02 schme: basically they assume certain behaviours, which are not required by spec 07:46:28 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:46:44 That's horrible. 07:46:53 I'm glad mono is here to replace it then :) 07:46:57 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@118.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:48:59 iirc, mono doesn't even pretend to have a complete GUI implementation. 07:51:25 Well time to write some code :) 07:51:55 Ralith: the problem with Windows.Forms is that way too often applications use P/Invoke to implements parts of the gui 07:52:04 what's that? 07:52:09 Ralith: think FFI 07:52:24 so, they manually call the win32 backend for parts of the GUI? 07:52:35 Ralith: yup 07:52:40 that's messy. 07:52:49 probably dangerous, too 07:52:55 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:07 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-30-63.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:53:17 Ralith: that's why even when Mono gets a finished WinForms implementation, you can't be sure everything will work 07:54:20 well, it'd be naive to expect that anyway 07:54:38 java code tends to be unportable for similar reasons; people write platform specific code then say "hey it's in java, no porting needed!" 07:55:25 ... don't remind me 07:55:30 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:10 *p_l* is VERY happy that he didn't have to deal with a certain set of apps because he was employed only for two months in his old job 07:56:56 I decided to write my own apps for my job. Seemed nicer than using other crap ;) 07:57:16 schme: this stuff was in-house 07:57:30 we didn't have choice 07:57:32 Bah! :) 07:57:45 it wasn't portable outside a certain *build* of Java 07:58:04 ahaha 07:58:21 I thought portability was one of its selling points. 07:58:21 right, question! cl-ppcre seems to want to recompile between execution on the command line vs in slime. i suspect it is the LANG variable and something called pretty-print, any suggestions 08:00:22 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:01:38 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-125-21-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:46 nowhereman [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:38 Demosthenes: start by working out whether what seems to happen is in fact actually happening 08:04:39 fusss [i=73803e36@gateway/web/freenode/x-3cc20acabc9fbe66] has joined #lisp 08:04:46 -!- nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:04:52 secondly, test whether your hypotheses about why it's happening are true or not 08:05:01 the solution should at that point become obvious 08:05:16 schme: one of its *marketing* points. 08:05:20 important difference. 08:05:37 Ralith: I see. 08:06:05 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-94.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:06:38 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:07:10 hmmpf 08:07:18 hunchentoot + unicode is tripping me 08:07:32 + LW, actually 08:08:21 kunday [n=kunday@117.193.137.92] has joined #lisp 08:10:52 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:27:35 -!- raboof_ [n=nospam@adsl-216-103-89-198.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 08:29:42 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:31:02 -!- fusss [i=73803e36@gateway/web/freenode/x-3cc20acabc9fbe66] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 08:33:04 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-116-111.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:36:39 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:37:37 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 08:39:52 serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-187-156.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:39:59 hello 08:44:31 heretoo [n=tristan@80-219-0-164.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:44:40 -!- heretoo is now known as heretoo__ 08:44:42 -!- heretoo__ is now known as heretoo 08:45:09 -!- kunday [n=kunday@117.193.137.92] has quit [] 08:49:14 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 08:54:23 -!- cdwillis [n=dwm@c-98-223-195-59.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:56:30 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@ip54517590.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:56:51 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@imaxeson.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:37 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:00:04 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 09:03:11 demmel [n=demmel@p5B0C0292.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:05:39 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 09:05:48 dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 09:09:23 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:14:58 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-94.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:15:49 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:16:31 -!- icylisper [n=user@115.99.32.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:17:04 -!- demmel [n=demmel@p5B0C0292.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 09:18:02 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:22:24 Is there a trick/pattern to inject a macroexpansion context into an eval? 09:23:18 don't do this 09:23:25 (Without macroexpand-all) 09:23:39 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177144179.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:23:44 I know it's generally not a valid thing to do - I'm experimenting wiht something kinda twisted 09:24:30 what is "macroexpansion context", anyway? 09:24:57 lexical environment, i guess 09:25:01 (macrolet ((something (&environment env) (eval `(somecrapherethat needs the enclosing env 09:26:15 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:26:30 eval always uses the top-level environment. 09:26:45 no way to pass it any lexical env, so cmm's recommendation stands (: 09:29:28 oh, looks like I gave a recommendation! :) 09:29:32 vng1 [n=demen@222.253.92.37] has joined #lisp 09:29:39 oh, wait 09:29:48 that was stassats`. sorry 09:30:01 (there's still too much blood in my caffeine) 09:30:04 hey, you never know :) 09:30:18 -!- vng1 [n=demen@222.253.92.37] has left #lisp 09:32:28 Modius: what you could do, though, is to macroexpand your EVAL-containing form in the needed lexical environment and eval the resulting expansion. 09:32:29 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:33:09 cmm: Wouldn't that require macroexpand-all if the expansion itself expands to some form whose sub-forms need expansion in the outer context? 09:33:22 except that the expansion still won't be able to refer to lexical variables in the containing form. 09:33:25 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 09:34:11 Modius: don't think so. but since lexical environments don't have indefinite extent, your options are still not exactly plentiful. plus what antifuchs said 09:35:02 ISTR pkhuong's serialized continuation library re-establishes the lexical environment by re-binding everything 09:35:08 this is an option, but not a very pretty one 09:35:22 it might be the only thing you can do, but you're still in "land war in asia" territory 09:39:11 -!- vng [n=demen@123.20.5.92] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:41:55 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.77] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:43:19 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 09:43:21 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest41726 09:45:45 Modius: Run MACROEXPAND-ALL over it before passing it to EVAL. 09:46:10 tcr: Wouldn't be portable to where I'm using it. Macroexpand-all is not an option. 09:46:27 macroexpand-all is fairly portable 09:47:44 Muld [i=wr23@88-196-42-177-dsl.noe.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 09:49:12 xan [n=xan@198.Red-80-59-108.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:28 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-036.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:52:01 -!- xan [n=xan@198.Red-80-59-108.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 09:55:27 xan [n=xan@198.Red-80-59-108.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:32 -!- xan [n=xan@198.Red-80-59-108.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:00:54 xan [n=xan@204.Red-88-27-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:04 -!- dys` [n=andreas@p5B31756B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:05:52 antifuchs: You still didn't post about boinkmarks 10:06:01 xan_ [n=xan@52.Red-80-36-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:34 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:06:45 -!- xan_ [n=xan@52.Red-80-36-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:07:01 -!- Guest41726 is now known as lexa_ 10:07:31 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest22937 10:08:29 fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.77] has joined #lisp 10:15:14 -!- Guest22937 is now known as lexa_ 10:15:44 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest22592 10:18:38 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 10:19:27 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:21:06 -!- xan [n=xan@204.Red-88-27-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Success] 10:24:44 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@198.Red-80-59-108.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:24 xan [n=xan@29.Red-83-59-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:39 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:31:47 how do I get the name of the current lisp impl? 10:32:25 clhs lisp-implementation-type 10:32:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_lisp_i.htm 10:33:10 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@198.Red-80-59-108.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:34:53 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:56 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:35:56 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 10:36:48 thanks 10:37:37 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:53 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Success] 10:42:21 milanj [n=milan@93.87.168.135] has joined #lisp 10:50:41 abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@176.Red-88-2-179.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:16 -!- grr [n=phal@93-138-46-248.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:53:30 -!- abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@176.Red-88-2-179.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:53:38 blandest [n=blandest@79.112.99.160] has joined #lisp 11:00:04 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E746.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:37 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-216-195.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:23 hello 11:06:08 *trebor_home* reading stassats` annotation http://paste.lisp.org/display/82954 11:06:55 morning 11:08:39 abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@94.Red-81-43-97.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:15 -!- blandest [n=blandest@79.112.99.160] has left #lisp 11:11:00 EnglishGent [n=EnglishG@ai-core.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:16:50 -!- xan [n=xan@29.Red-83-59-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:19:51 -!- Guest22592 is now known as lexa_ 11:20:21 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest34587 11:20:26 dlowe [n=dlowe@24.91.154.83] has joined #lisp 11:21:11 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-216-195.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:21:59 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:22:08 -!- Guest34587 is now known as lexa_ 11:22:37 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest88371 11:24:57 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:25:24 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:29:02 -!- Guest88371 is now known as lexa_ 11:29:21 -!- abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@94.Red-81-43-97.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:29:32 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest1272 11:29:53 abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@198.Red-80-59-108.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:41 when something says it is 32-bit accuracy, does that mean the significand is upto e-10? 11:33:26 depends on format, i guess 11:34:00 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 11:34:32 -!- Muld [i=wr23@88-196-42-177-dsl.noe.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:34:42 float 11:36:48 zk [n=bunny@S01060013465e373c.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:51 -!- zk [n=bunny@S01060013465e373c.vf.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 11:39:09 jyujin [n=mdeining@82.113.121.138] has joined #lisp 11:41:02 -!- Guest1272 is now known as lexa_ 11:41:26 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:41:32 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest5403 11:42:54 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@204.Red-88-27-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:25 fusss [i=738003e2@gateway/web/freenode/x-c27377101b3e44f3] has joined #lisp 11:43:35 leo2007: float isn't a format, it's a concept. 11:43:45 alright, so somethings are working now 11:43:55 leo2007: what is important is how many bits are assigned to various *parts* of a float 11:43:55 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@204.Red-88-27-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:44:08 montezuma: too fucking elaborate for its own good, or just under-documented? 11:44:25 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@68.Red-80-36-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:51 me thinks I should automatically index all the content pages in my web page; the page are already defined with defpage, might as well let defpage do a little more work 11:44:57 *fusss* just thinking aloud here, sorry 11:45:06 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:45:59 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:46:00 -!- Guest5403 is now known as lexa_ 11:46:22 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:46:29 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest49250 11:47:32 -!- abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@198.Red-80-59-108.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:49:01 -!- Guest49250 is now known as lexa_ 11:49:31 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest53419 11:50:02 xan [n=xan@51.Red-83-61-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:07 -!- fusss [i=738003e2@gateway/web/freenode/x-c27377101b3e44f3] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 11:53:44 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:56:21 xan_ [n=xan@52.Red-80-36-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:42 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 11:58:12 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:02 -!- Guest53419 is now known as lexa_ 12:01:06 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:01:26 -!- xan_ [n=xan@52.Red-80-36-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:01:32 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest5052 12:01:36 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-34-164.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:03:46 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.168.135] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:03:48 lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:41 milanj [n=milan@93.87.168.135] has joined #lisp 12:08:30 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-036.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 12:09:04 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.168.135] has quit [Client Quit] 12:09:38 eaumontab [n=abeaumon@176.Red-88-2-179.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:34 -!- xan [n=xan@51.Red-83-61-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:14:38 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:15:01 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@68.Red-80-36-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:16:00 -!- Guest5052 is now known as lexa_ 12:16:30 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest23311 12:16:59 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:19:01 -!- Guest23311 is now known as lexa_ 12:19:31 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest66160 12:19:35 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:22:05 -!- lujz [n=lujz@89-212-239-155.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:22:21 blandest [n=blandest@79.112.96.226] has joined #lisp 12:23:59 -!- Guest66160 is now known as lexa_ 12:24:29 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest23452 12:27:08 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-036.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 12:27:17 Ralith: thanks 12:27:40 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:29:52 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 12:37:05 -!- eaumontab [n=abeaumon@176.Red-88-2-179.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:40:24 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 12:49:25 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-212-200.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 12:50:01 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-213.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:50:03 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 12:53:08 -!- heretoo [n=tristan@80-219-0-164.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:56:32 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.243.17] has joined #lisp 12:57:36 -!- Guest23452 is now known as lexa_ 12:58:06 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest6949 12:58:24 who's responsible for the planet-lisp twitter account? 12:58:52 is that xach? 12:59:05 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-236-244.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:00:29 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-216-195.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:03 -!- Guest6949 is now known as lexa_ 13:02:33 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest85148 13:02:49 no, some german guy 13:03:11 of the hübnerian persuasion 13:03:16 hah 13:05:37 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 13:05:52 -!- lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:06:10 oh it's hans himself 13:10:33 binarycodes [n=Sujoy@59.93.240.120] has joined #lisp 13:11:16 -!- binarycodes [n=Sujoy@59.93.240.120] has left #lisp 13:11:29 heh. 6 months of uptime, nice 13:13:20 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-187-156.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:14:05 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.137.201] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:16:18 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-94.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:16:44 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-244.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:17:05 sepult [n=user@87.78.102.2] has joined #lisp 13:18:44 deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 13:26:10 antifuchs: where ? 13:29:52 fe[nl]ix: Looking for me yesterday? 13:32:08 rtoym: my build of the last unicode snapshot fails in build-2 with "Error in function STREAM::FIND-EXTERNAL-FORMAT: STREAM::EXTFMT is not a valid external format name." 13:32:12 am I doing something wrong ? 13:32:54 You got that from simple-streams, right? Simple streams are currently broken. 13:33:41 -!- Guest85148 is now known as lexa_ 13:34:10 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest30782 13:34:58 trebor annotated #82954 "seems to work(!) novice macro for checking keyword-arguments-non-nil" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82954#4 13:36:40 stassats & Phoodus thanks for your hints, this seems to do what i need. 13:37:08 i hope it does not have further errors. 13:37:09 you have peculiar needs 13:40:49 -!- blandest [n=blandest@79.112.96.226] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:41:14 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 13:41:29 -!- Guest30782 is now known as lexa_ 13:41:57 michaelw: one main-func and their sub-funcs do have lots of key-word-parameters (&rest arg-list &key ...) and some of them have default-values (some at the sub-func-parameter-list some at the main-func-parameter-list). i do call the sub-funcs via (apply #'sub-func arg-list), but that does not include keyword-value lists of defaults of the main-func. 13:41:59 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest62452 13:42:06 Xach: what is the hübnerian persuasion? 13:44:21 trebor_home: if NIL is passed as a keyword argument, it will append twice 13:44:31 trebor_home: instead of passing lots of parameters you could wrap them into a configuration plist/class/... 13:45:58 -!- rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:46:01 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:46:13 davazp [n=user@79.153.148.56] has joined #lisp 13:46:17 stassats: in this functions nil is not a valid parameter-value. (if i understand you right) 13:47:45 serichsen: it's a wrongly-encoded persuasion 13:48:37 michaelw: yes, it is not really good design, but it happened to envolve this way .... 13:49:48 trebor_home: you will have :x 1 :x nil, so you need to append to the beginning, because left-most :x will be used 13:50:13 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:50:15 rtoym: how do I avoid building simple-streams ? 13:51:22 Hmm. You'd have to comment that out from the build tools, I think. Does your build automatically stop on errors? Mine just continues. 13:52:04 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-036.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 13:52:40 rtoym: yes, I get "Failed: src/tools/build-world.sh" 13:54:31 Ok. I think you have to go to pcl/defsys.lisp and in compile-pcl, maybe comment out the line(s) that include 'simpel-streams. 13:54:34 Untested, though. 13:54:46 -!- sepult [n=user@87.78.102.2] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:57:11 trebor_home: does your main function check for NIL? to greatly simplify matters you can just do (append rest '(:x :default :y :default-value)) 14:01:59 stassats: in this case NIL means do-not-use-this-paramter, explicitely. most parameters are like :do-initialize-foo or :do-gnuplot-num-objects, so if they are nil no action should be performed. some paramters like :gnuplot-script-file are always set, either a default value at the main-func or like :monte-carlo-tolerance at the sub-func parameter list. they all can be overridden at the main-func call. 14:03:00 serichsen: a quality exhibited quite strongly by Hans Hübner 14:03:07 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 14:03:10 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:03:35 i have to admit, that things are not designed properly. this is my second CL application. i try to learn CL by doing ;) 14:05:25 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:44 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.219.49] has joined #lisp 14:07:10 stassats: ah, i see the problem. this way a parameter with no-nil-default value can not be set to nil. ok.i have to check, if this can be a problem (does not seem so, but i didn't check carefully). 14:10:41 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:25 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229170099.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:12:23 *trebor_home* is forced to go to the sea with his daughters ... will be back in a few hours 14:12:39 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-216-195.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 14:14:57 eaumontab [n=abeaumon@222.Red-79-157-82.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:47 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CD5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:16:15 sepult [n=user@87.78.102.2] has joined #lisp 14:16:17 prxq [n=mommer@pD9549FEB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:16:48 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 14:20:58 manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 14:22:54 -!- sepult [n=user@87.78.102.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:24:15 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 14:24:58 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-2.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:25:31 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-2.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:26:35 danlei [n=user@pD9E2CD5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:00 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-2.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:27:50 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.220.98] has joined #lisp 14:28:09 I'm still having trouble building SBCL with threads. 14:28:25 What is the trouble? 14:28:40 (also why on earth skip the threads?) :) 14:28:59 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:19 morning 14:29:22 Well, the binary that I downloaded didn't have threading support, so I've tried compiling the source, but it says that there still isn't thread support. 14:29:30 good morning slyrus_ 14:29:43 Adlai: did you turn threads on before building? 14:29:52 *Adlai* 's ears perk up. 14:30:41 you do have a customize-target-features.lisp file, right? 14:31:02 hm no... 14:31:17 oh WITH threads. I read it wrong. 14:31:19 it doesn't appear to be in the tarball. 14:31:21 you did read INSTALL? 14:31:28 Yes, what stassats said. 14:31:44 ok, I feel really stupid. 14:31:54 *Adlai* customizes target features [.lisp] 14:33:14 Adlai pasted "customize-target-features.lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83051 14:33:26 can you tell me whether that'll work? 14:33:42 saikat_ [n=saikat@71.163.70.52] has joined #lisp 14:33:46 I don't want to build SBCL again and not do it right :| 14:34:23 that will, but why do you need sb-show? 14:34:36 isn't that for detailed error checking? 14:34:57 you are hacking on SBCL? 14:35:06 *Adlai* removes sb-show 14:35:07 Adlai: it'll only be useful if you're hacking on SBCL itself, since it'll print a lot debugging messages 14:35:57 ok, well, here goes... I hope this will build threads... 14:36:05 I just sudo sh make.sh ? 14:36:33 (ie, it'll pick up on the config file) 14:36:34 ? 14:36:34 just sh make.sh 14:36:43 ok 14:38:26 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:38:56 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E476FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 14:41:20 redline6561 [n=redline@c-71-56-34-130.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:33 macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:43:06 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@71.163.70.52] has quit [] 14:45:25 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:45:34 hm, problem 14:45:47 Finished building, ran install.sh, ran sbcl 14:45:56 checked and :sb-thread is indeed in *features* 14:46:08 started compiling my project in SBCL, and got this error 14:46:16 clear you fasls 14:46:47 find -name *.fasl -exec rm {} \; 14:46:52 I'll just assume that is the error ;) 14:47:10 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-083-182.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:54 Adlai annotated #83051 "error in compilation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83051#1 14:49:12 ah ok 14:49:15 lol, i'll do that first... 14:49:20 oh wait 14:49:27 I'm using asdf-binary-locations 14:49:32 would that make a difference? 14:49:37 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-2.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:49:48 and also, I'm using (asdf:oos ... :force T) 14:49:58 -!- eaumontab [n=abeaumon@222.Red-79-157-82.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:52:36 here is your problem 14:53:24 yes? 14:53:43 don't use :force T 14:54:17 why? I'm loading this for the first time with thread support, so shouldn't I recompile my files? 14:54:35 first, what slyrus_ said, second, your fasls are not writeable 14:55:02 ooooh I get it, the problem is with SBCL's included libraries 14:55:06 :force t doesn't work as you might expect. just remove the fasls by hand. 14:55:21 no, the problem is with asdf, but, yeah 14:58:37 -!- Guest62452 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 15:00:55 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:00:58 dang, i keep getting weird cl-ppcre behavior :P 15:02:11 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 15:02:39 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest10573 15:02:45 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:05:35 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:05:37 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:06:01 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:06:14 *Adlai* has a love/hate relationship with ERC 15:06:45 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-120-156.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:06:51 Good afternoon! 15:07:13 Adlai: it hates you and you love it? :) 15:07:21 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-127-60.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:17 Okay, the morning coffee hasn't kicked in. How do I get FORMAT to print a double float with no trailing "D0"? 15:08:33 (And with as many places of precision as possible.) 15:09:58 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.77] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:10:58 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:43 clhs ~f 15:11:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cca.htm 15:12:19 stassats: yeah, I looked at that. But I can't find anything about supressing the D0 15:12:24 Maybe I'm just dumb this morning. 15:12:52 it doesn't print d0 for me, but another way (let ((*read-default-float-format* 'double-float)) (format t "~a" pi)) 15:14:03 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-200.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 15:15:20 michaelw, basically that's the case :D 15:16:22 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:16:46 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:21:59 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.220.98] has left #lisp 15:23:26 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-231.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 15:23:58 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.220.98] has joined #lisp 15:26:23 stassats: yup. That does the trick. 15:26:39 Though it seems like there ought to be a way within FORMAT to control that. 15:27:52 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229170099.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 15:28:10 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229170099.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:34:00 -!- jimi_hendrix [n=jimi_hen@unaffiliated/jimihendrix] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:22 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:35:29 Greetings! 15:36:19 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:01 -!- Guest10573 is now known as lexa_ 15:37:31 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest78970 15:38:48 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:39:04 -!- sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:40:09 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.220.98] has quit [] 15:41:13 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:42:40 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:43:37 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@ppp-70-253-66-27.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:44:34 -!- Guest78970 is now known as lexa_ 15:45:04 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest76510 15:45:24 lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-16-75.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:49 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-64-42.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:48:33 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:50:22 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-120-156.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:50:26 -!- beach` is now known as beach 15:53:16 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:54:01 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:03:38 wow, i'm stunned. the regexp \\s+ works, but \\s{4} and " {4}" and " " all die with an eval error 16:05:37 perhaps you could say (a) in what regexp library and (b) what the error exactly is 16:07:04 sellout [n=greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:29 tsuru` [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:43 cl-ppcre, and *ponder* says simple error, it may be from the wrapper, not the regexp function 16:07:46 -!- tsuru [n=user@69.245.36.64] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:07:48 its returning nil on a valid expression 16:08:03 od -a on the file clearly shows 4 spaces on that line. 16:08:05 how do you use it? 16:08:31 i'm using a big honking multiline regexp in extended mode 16:08:55 trying to wholesale match a record so i can let the regexp library handle parsing, vs me making a line by line handler 16:09:00 if you want us to help you, you need to provide a way we can reproduce your error 16:09:12 yep, looking at it 16:09:20 lisppaste: url? 16:09:21 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 16:10:48 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:11:15 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@216-228-28-218-static.dsl.redshift.com] has joined #lisp 16:12:37 Demosthenes pasted "regexp thingie" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83055 16:13:28 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:13:31 paste the error 16:14:07 jimi_hendrix [n=jimi_hen@unaffiliated/jimihendrix] has joined #lisp 16:14:22 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-116-111.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 16:14:23 http://paste.lisp.org/display/83056 16:14:31 ...as an annotation, preferably 16:14:48 that error i understand, its just saying that regexp2alist is missing a value returned from the regexp parsing 16:15:09 from cl-ppcre:scan-to-strings 16:15:54 but again the regexp with \\s+ works, when none of the similar items do, ie: ' ', \\ {4}, etc... 16:15:58 even \\s\\s\\s\\s 16:16:14 why do you need nth-value 0? 16:16:54 create-regexp returns two values, the first is the regexp ref, the second is extra stuff (i forgot?) 16:17:09 the first regexp is the issue, not the second 16:17:23 both return NIL for me 16:17:36 lemme doublecheck the data sample :P 16:17:52 and you don't need nth-value 0 16:18:19 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:19:44 Demosthenes annotated #83055 "fixed data sample" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83055#1 16:19:45 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:20:38 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 16:20:53 eaumontab [n=abeaumon@163.Red-79-150-220.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:10 now both work for me 16:21:20 update your cl-ppcre? 16:22:12 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 16:22:26 you know what, they both work for me too! wtf. i pasted one item out of a file of hundreds... maybe i've got a weird error in the data file 16:22:32 ... yay 16:22:52 i appreciate the extra eyes though, but i would have expected to get some records back, instead of it just dying :P 16:23:24 -!- eaumontab is now known as abeaumont 16:23:25 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:24:02 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:44 crud, another issue i had was fixed using that short sample too. there really must be something inconsistent in the input data 16:25:36 -!- krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-119-163.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:25:37 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-12-147.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:26:02 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.93] has quit ["  ,     ."] 16:26:19 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:26:38 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@216-228-28-218-static.dsl.redshift.com] has quit [] 16:29:21 -!- davazp [n=user@79.153.148.56] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:30:39 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [] 16:33:17 blandest [n=blandest@79.112.100.24] has joined #lisp 16:34:38 I'm having more trouble with SBCL... 16:34:57 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@163.Red-79-150-220.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:16 I tried installing it in my home directory, and it works fine. 16:35:39 However, when I try to run it with slime (M-- M-x slime sbcl ), I get the following error: 16:36:04 can't find core file at /usr/local/lib/sbcl//sbcl.core 16:36:05 16:36:39 I don't understand why it's looking for files there; sbcl works fine when I run it from the command line. 16:37:25 you specify wrong --core? you didn't specify --core? have you set SBCL_HOME? 16:37:39 do you have a separate installation of sbcl that is in your $PATH? 16:38:00 echo $SBCL_HOME => ~/sbcl/lib/sbcl 16:38:39 Krystof, there's no specific mention of SBCL in my $PATH, although I previously had a "system-wide" install of SBCL 16:38:59 what's in your slime-lisp-implementations 16:39:29 stassats, the relevant line is (sbcl ("~/bin/sbcl") :coding-system utf-8-unix) 16:39:36 oh wait 16:39:39 *Adlai* tests an idea. 16:40:33 saikat_ [n=saikat@pool-71-163-70-52.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:33 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@163.Red-79-150-220.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:52 nope, didn't help... ("~/bin/sbcl" is actually a symlink to the real sbcl executable, but slime still fails when I put that in) 16:40:59 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:41:03 hiteki` [n=user@224.251.102-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:04 does your emacs see SBCL_HOME? 16:41:19 stassats, how can I check? 16:41:28 M-: (getenv "SBCL_HOME") 16:41:54 Quetzalcoatl_ [n=godless@cpe-71-72-235-91.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:42:03 aha. 16:42:25 I set that variable in my .bashrc, so does that mean that next time I log in, Emacs will see it? 16:42:49 perhaps 16:42:56 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:43:16 you could also set :env in slime-lisp-implementations 16:43:54 *Adlai* looks at SLIME manul 16:43:56 *manual 16:44:26 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@rogue.hut.fi] has quit ["leaving"] 16:44:34 -!- ineiros_ is now known as ineiros 16:45:19 C-h v slime-lisp-implementations 16:47:01 -!- hiteki [n=user@121.251.102-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:53:23 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@216-228-28-218-static.dsl.redshift.com] has joined #lisp 16:55:00 whew. 16:55:29 I never thought I'd be happier to see the words: 16:55:36 "Connected -- Take this REPL, brother, may it serve you well." 16:55:41 Blkt [n=Blkt@dynamic-adsl-94-37-236-153.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 16:57:10 *rsynnott* wonders who came up with the little catchphrases 16:57:49 That particular one is from a Beatles album. 16:58:10 [slightly altered] 16:58:20 rswarbrick [n=rswarbri@user-514c0d17.l1.c5.dsl.pol.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:58:56 girzel [n=user@63.226.249.211] has joined #lisp 16:59:49 Actually, setting :env wasn't the end of the battle... 17:00:34 I also had to delete .fasls in .slime/fasls/ 17:00:40 anyways, it's working now. 17:00:48 The REPL serves me well :D 17:01:52 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@163.Red-79-150-220.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:01:57 slime-words-of-encouragement is defined in slime.el 17:02:14 they really are quite encouraging words :-) 17:03:26 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@230.Red-83-57-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:29 cl-newb [n=john@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:11 eaumontab [n=abeaumon@222.Red-79-157-82.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:56 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@216-228-28-218-static.dsl.redshift.com] has quit [] 17:08:29 -!- Guest76510 is now known as lexa_ 17:08:59 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest95871 17:08:59 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:09:14 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:53 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:14:02 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:02 -!- 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-!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.219.49] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:33:24 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@pool-71-163-70-52.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 17:34:11 Muld [i=wr23@88-196-32-108-dsl.noe.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 17:34:17 -!- demmel [n=demmel@p5B0C0292.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 17:34:18 eaumontab [n=abeaumon@141.Red-79-150-222.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:39 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:36:01 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:38:17 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:38:48 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-53-236.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:31 I'm getting the following problem from the "tilde.lisp" SBCL hack... 17:41:20 Adlai pasted "SBCL Debugger" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83058 17:42:02 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:42:28 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 17:42:36 *Adlai* hates loving ERC 17:42:40 for some reason it's trying to recompile a contrib it shouldn't recompile 17:42:44 did you use :force t or something? 17:43:15 I'm not doing anything except for (load "path/to/tilde.lisp") 17:43:34 *Adlai* checks within tilde.lisp for :force t 17:43:42 hmm 17:44:07 aumontabe [n=abeaumon@163.Red-79-150-220.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:09 ah, ok. it does (require 'sb-posix) 17:44:38 does that make SBCL try and recompile that file? 17:44:49 no 17:44:51 it shouldn't 17:45:17 someone recently posted a patch to fix that bogus grovel behavior, but you may simply be able to quit and restart and it will work 17:45:31 *Adlai* has quit and restarted several times... 17:45:36 is that patch on sourceforge? 17:46:05 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@dsl-207-112-87-223.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:46:06 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has quit [] 17:47:14 it's on the mailing list archive, wherever that is. 17:49:24 Xach, is this it? 17:49:24 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.194.101] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:49:25 http://osdir.com/ml/lisp.steel-bank.devel/2003-06/msg00055.html 17:49:59 2003-06... i seriously doubt that 17:50:01 krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-29-4.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:50:10 hm, didn't check the date. lol. 17:52:36 The error still happens when I restart sbcl 17:52:37 galiley [n=user@77.70.2.99] has joined #lisp 17:53:27 no wonder, sbcl can't heal itself 17:54:09 any idea how I can heal it? 17:57:26 or, where can I find that patch? I've been trying to Google for it with no success 17:58:50 saikat_ [n=saikat@pool-71-163-70-52.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:04 -!- eaumontab [n=abeaumon@141.Red-79-150-222.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:17 Xach, any suggestions on how to find that bug? 18:01:22 *that patch 18:02:06 has there been anything known about an unhandled memory fault in sbcl in the last few months? I have one (but can't easily paste the source) when creating an instance of a closs-class (which has a different metaclass than the normal one). Strange thing is, that it did work a few minutes ago... scary 18:02:32 you don't use safety 0? 18:02:44 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:02:57 stassats: not explicitly (but I'm going to explicit that :) 18:03:01 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:03:05 well, the opposite 18:03:29 any ideas how I can fix this?? 18:03:49 http://paste.lisp.org/display/83058 18:04:06 stassats: already had safety 3 speed 0 and debug 3... 18:04:58 madnificent: can you reproduce after restarting sbcl? 18:05:27 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:05:47 stassats: yes 18:06:03 and with normal safety settings? 18:06:13 stassats: control stack guard page temporary disabled << isn't that normally when you have something recursive? (would make it easier to search) 18:06:21 alexbobp [n=alex@ppp-70-253-66-27.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:23 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-12-147.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:06:44 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:06:56 debug 3 defies tail recursion 18:07:02 optimization 18:07:07 commmmodo [n=commmmod@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 18:07:20 stassats: strangely, that gives me comments *and* it is something recursive in my code 18:07:22 thanks 18:07:36 didn't know that about debug 3... somewhat strange 18:09:19 *Adlai* resorts to rebuilding SBCL. 18:09:21 In loop, can `collect' collect things in to a vector? 18:09:26 no 18:09:26 leo2007: nope. 18:09:29 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:09:47 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:11:45 I want to use loop to generate a large sequence (could be 1000000 long), is list an efficient way to store it? 18:11:46 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:12:26 leo2007: no. Lists takes twice the storage a vector does. 18:12:55 krl [i=krille@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:13:41 A list of N elements has N cons cells which take two slots, total 2N slots. A vector of N elements has N slots, plus some header overhead. 18:13:44 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 18:14:13 and there can be specialized vectors 18:14:23 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["* Isengard has quit IRC (Excess Flood)"] 18:14:35 all elements are floats between 0 and 1.0 18:15:21 single floats? on 32-bit machine? they will fit into 32 bits 18:17:03 Well, in a list the would have to be boxed. So they'd take 64 bits for the cons, and 32 bits for the float, total 96 bits per float, while in a specialised vector they'd take only 32 bits. 18:18:07 what is a specialised vector? 18:18:22 is this sufficient? (make-array length :element-type 'single-float) 18:18:30 (make-array 5 :element-type 'single-float :initial-element 0.0f0) 18:18:31 yes 18:18:51 Then check that it's really specialized in your implementation with (array-element-type array). 18:18:59 If you don't get T here, you've got a specialized array. 18:19:24 thanks 18:19:25 clhs u-a-e-t 18:19:26 UPGRADED-ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_upgr_1.htm 18:19:29 it is specialised 18:19:59 leo2007: One of the FIXME's for MAP-MATRIX and MAP-INTO-MATRIX. 18:20:13 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:21:00 tmh: yes, unfortunately I need to finish a report today. Then I'll spend more time working on the matrix side. 18:21:12 -!- krl [i=krille@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has left #lisp 18:22:43 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:23:50 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-96-255-111-135.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:26:23 -!- aumontabe [n=abeaumon@163.Red-79-150-220.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:30:25 Is it worth going to European Common Lisp Meeting for a newbie like me? 18:30:55 leo2007: certainly 18:31:02 leo2007: For sure. 18:31:11 I plan to go there 18:32:03 OK, I'll register at the end of this month 18:34:07 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 18:35:30 -!- Muld [i=wr23@88-196-32-108-dsl.noe.estpak.ee] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:36:48 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:37:42 http://lispm.dyndns.org/news?ID=NEWS-2006-05-28-1 18:37:47 this looks interesting 18:39:48 *rsynnott* was vaguely considering going 18:39:57 if nothing else it'd be an excuse to visit Germany 18:43:15 leo2007, I asked the same question, and I was told that part of the point was meeting people, and that's mainly for us n00bs :) 18:43:21 *madnificent* is interested too :) 18:44:55 it is somewhat far away, but at least I can make the date 18:45:37 Jabberwockey [n=jens@ip54517590.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 18:47:35 madnificent: See you there ! 18:49:10 bob_f: ah, that might be cool :D 18:49:18 madnificent: Oh. I'm not really going. 18:49:19 bob_f: how are you traveling? 18:49:23 bob_f: :( 18:49:48 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 18:53:31 demmel [n=demmel@p5B0C0292.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:54:40 Adlai: ;) 18:55:03 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:55:56 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@pool-71-163-70-52.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:56:46 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:58:35 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-116-111.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:00:13 -!- cl-newb [n=john@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:02:36 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 19:06:32 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has quit [] 19:06:49 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 19:07:28 -!- Guest17914 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 19:10:02 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 19:11:46 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 19:12:17 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.219.49] has joined #lisp 19:13:26 saikat_ [n=saikat@pool-71-163-70-52.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:17 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:17:19 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 19:20:44 xan [n=xan@29.Red-83-59-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:40 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@ip54517590.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:31:19 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:32:07 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:34:38 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-68-208.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:36:16 not exactly a lisp question but i have a list and i want a list containing all permutations of that list how can i do that? 19:36:55 google for lisp all-permutations? 19:36:58 by writing a function which will compute all permutations 19:37:10 "recursively" 19:37:52 -!- galiley [n=user@77.70.2.99] has left #lisp 19:38:12 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:38:28 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 19:38:41 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:39:23 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:39:39 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@pool-71-163-70-52.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 19:43:26 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:44:42 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:44:46 wbraun [n=Blinder@p5B2007C3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:46:32 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 19:47:23 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:48:28 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-28-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:49:15 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:50:37 -!- Paraselene is now known as Paraselene_ 19:51:11 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [] 19:51:34 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:54 Hello. I have a problem with the condition system. I want to write a function, which calls another function. This function can sometimes throw an error. Then the error occurs the first function should do some work and restart the second function, as if nothing happens. I don't know how to implement this ... anybody an idea? 19:52:12 cl-newb [n=john@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:41 (defun f () (loop (handler-case (return-from f (g)) (error (err) (do-something err))))) 19:52:46 for example. 19:53:16 When I do a: (sb-ext:disable-package-locks :user) sbcl says disable-package-locks is undefined 19:53:22 Jabberwockey [n=jens@ip54517590.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 19:53:29 wbraun: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/beyond-exception-handling-conditions-and-restarts.html 19:53:34 cl-newb: perhaps it's singular? 19:53:45 ? 19:54:02 No, it's plural. 19:54:14 pjb: this is a good idea... to simple 19:54:14 xristos: i looked at practical common lisp already ;) 19:54:23 cl-newb: But it doesn't seem to be a function. 19:54:24 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Package-Lock-Dictionary.html#Package-Lock-Dictionary 19:54:54 pjb: ah not too simple :D it was too simple for me to get on it alone :( 19:55:17 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-28-92.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:55:19 oic I'll RTM 19:57:28 It's (sb-ext:unlock-package _) that I wanted 19:57:54 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 20:05:18 dys [n=andreas@p5B31756B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:32 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 20:12:41 -!- blandest [n=blandest@79.112.100.24] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:15:17 ravster [n=user@67.204.25.27] has joined #lisp 20:15:45 Hello all 20:16:25 Hello ravster 20:19:09 Is there a was to make sbcl more quiet (stop printing all its compile steps)? 20:19:14 -!- xan [n=xan@29.Red-83-59-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:19:17 s/was/way/ 20:19:19 I'm new to lisp. I was wondering if someone could help me with getting an array of objects created from data in a csv-file. The code that I have so far is at http://paste.lisp.org/+1S3F . 20:20:33 sbcl goes fine till the end of the file, when it returns an error. Then when I have a look at the array itself, it returns what look like memory addresses, not the actual numbers themselves. 20:21:28 Is there a way to keep sbcl from polling the cpu forever (thus putting it at 100%) after exiting SLIME before calling (quit)? 20:21:44 (other than calling quit) 20:22:05 ravster: It looks to me like you are filling the array up with objects there. 20:22:24 ravster: Have you inspected one of these? 20:22:26 -!- rswarbrick [n=rswarbri@user-514c0d17.l1.c5.dsl.pol.co.uk] has left #lisp 20:22:51 schme: the files themselves? They are in normal text csv format. 20:23:02 ravster: No I mean the objects in the array. 20:23:13 ravster: What do you expect to find in the array? 20:23:46 schme: how do I do that? I did a (elt *array* 0) but that returned some hex code, not the string. 20:23:48 ravster: You say that when you look at the array it returns what looks like memory addresses. 20:24:09 ravster: Right. What you have in the array is objects. 20:24:14 ...and I just realized that I should do a parse-integer on those things before letting them into the objects. 20:24:45 ravster: Well either way you will still just get the object when you look at the array. 20:25:17 schme: Right, okay. and this is because the array is of the objects, and don't see the slots of the objects directly 20:25:26 ravster: Exactly. 20:25:38 ravster: You might enjoy (inspect (elt *array* 0)) 20:25:52 ravster: Or I guess using the accessor methods you defined. 20:26:01 Alright, so if I want to see the slots, I should use the reader function. 20:26:10 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:26:12 Preferably :) 20:26:20 schme: alright, I'll have a look at the inspect function. 20:26:25 thank you, schme 20:26:50 np. I hope it makes sense (: 20:27:01 ravster: you may also write a print-object method for your classes. 20:27:04 clhs print-object 20:27:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pr_obj.htm 20:27:39 Oh, there we go. The inspect function is marvellous. Thanks :D 20:28:49 pjb: Thank you for the link. I'll have a look at that too. It sounds like something I might be able to put to good use. 20:29:41 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:34:06 revermind, i got it.... 20:34:42 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Controlling-Verbosity.html 20:35:16 ajsquared [n=ajsquare@cpe-65-29-210-95.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:36:20 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:38:13 -!- ajsquared [n=ajsquare@cpe-65-29-210-95.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:38:15 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-172-094.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 20:42:28 saikat_ [n=saikat@pool-71-163-70-52.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:21 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-216-195.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:43 -!- peddie_ is now known as peddie 20:47:57 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@pool-71-163-70-52.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:49:05 bgs101 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:49:21 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:49:22 timor [n=martin@p54B65866.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:31 -!- bgs101 is now known as bgs100 20:51:21 altious [n=alt@87.252.227.77] has joined #lisp 20:53:22 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:53:32 altious pasted "shuffle" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83070 20:54:32 i expect this code shuffle list 20:54:37 xan [n=xan@29.Red-83-59-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:52 like in perl with rand as cmp function 20:54:56 altious: no, this is very bad. 20:55:03 however i get reverse of list each time 20:55:08 what the problem? 20:55:32 altious: there's no guarantee on the number of times the comparison function is called by sort. There's no guarantee on the behavior of sort, if that function is not a total order. 20:55:39 pjb, this is not production code. i only study different aspects of lisp 20:55:52 Of your implementation. 20:56:03 pjb, sort guarantee that each element will be compared at least one 20:56:04 time 20:56:08 that is enough 20:56:13 Any result would be highly implementation dependant with such a comparison. 20:56:22 it doesn't matter ) 20:56:40 Then don't call it "shuffle" and don't expect anything from it. 20:56:43 actually i wonder why this don't work 20:56:53 Because it is not specified to work. 20:56:59 it is 20:57:57 It is specified in that case that the elements are scrambled in an unpredicatble way. 20:58:04 yes 20:58:07 Which is not what a shuffle would do. 20:58:24 you see any difference? 20:58:25 reverse of the list is an unpredictable scramble: you didn't predict it would occur! 20:59:03 reverse is likely to occur with probability of any other variant 20:59:14 WarWeasle [n=brad@98.220.168.14] has joined #lisp 20:59:33 unpredicable scramble is not the same as equiprobable shuffle. 20:59:48 IN any case if you don't believe me, just ask your implementation! 21:01:02 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:01:13 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:01:32 pjb, there IS a problem in implementation 21:01:43 and i asked about it, not about fundamental problems 21:01:49 (if there is any) 21:01:50 No, there is a problem with you. You don't understand the specification. 21:02:26 you make focus on irrelevant 21:02:30 things 21:03:21 btw the same works flawlessly in perl 21:03:33 btw, hmm... i need closures? 21:04:03 altious: that's because perl works in a different way 21:04:13 (or rather, it isn't ACTUALLY the same thing you're doing ;) ) 21:04:18 actually there is a typo. strange that nodoby noted it 21:04:29 /(defun r () (- (random 3) 1))/(defun r (x y) (- (random 3) 1))/ 21:04:52 btw, the whole issue of shuffling was gone over in horrible detail in the blogs recently) 21:09:24 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:18 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-53-236.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:10:40 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229170099.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:12:07 altious, It appears this works (sort '(1 2 3 4 5) #'(lambda (x y) (if (eql (random 2) 1) t nil))) 21:12:29 -!- prxq [n=mommer@pD9549FEB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:13:42 altious: read up on fisher-yates/knuth shuffle 21:15:09 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:15:35 altious: by the way, sorting with a randomized comparison is not correct, because you need to specify an order of items for sorting 21:15:55 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:16:03 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-90-202.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 21:16:09 altious: anything may happen, but it is not random. It may even fall into an infinite loop 21:16:34 altious, But the reason yours just reversed it is because it always returns non-nil values. 21:16:38 *reading specification 21:16:51 altious: and your code doesn't work because comparison doesn't work that way in lisp 21:17:15 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-64-83-63.hvc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:20 -1, 0, and +1 all are true 21:17:20 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:17:37 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-64-83-63.hvc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:17:56 +1 21:20:54 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 21:21:00 Hrm. 21:21:39 yes, i'm wrong 21:23:14 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 21:26:13 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:27:26 saikat_ [n=saikat@pool-71-163-70-52.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:35 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@pool-71-163-70-52.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:28:44 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:31:00 How do I add a directory to the list of paths asdf searches in for asd files? 21:31:52 (push directory asdf:*central-registry*) 21:33:51 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C5DF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:14 thx 21:34:30 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:36:10 was that a joke? the eval looks wrong 21:36:44 cl-newb: How does it look? 21:36:53 Why don't you read the manual? 21:37:00 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:37:15 * (push "~/clx" asdf:*central-registry*) 21:37:15 ("~/clx" (MERGE-PATHNAMES ".sbcl/systems/" (USER-HOMEDIR-PATHNAME)) 21:37:15 (LET ((ASDF::HOME (POSIX-GETENV "SBCL_HOME"))) 21:37:15 (WHEN (AND ASDF::HOME (NOT (STRING= ASDF::HOME ""))) 21:37:15 (MERGE-PATHNAMES "site-systems/" (TRUENAME ASDF::HOME)))) 21:37:15 *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS*) 21:37:39 cl-newb: "~/clx" is not a pathname: (typeof "~/clx") 21:38:42 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 21:39:35 pjb, you should RTM....prefixing #P to it still makes you wrong 21:39:53 cl-newb: And you think I don't know? 21:40:06 to your first question, the point of this channel is not to say RTM to ppl, get a life 21:40:16 afk 21:40:32 cl-newb: you get a life. The point of this channel is not for newbies to tell oldtimers they don't know what they talk about! 21:41:25 happy fourth old timers, cya later 21:41:28 -!- cl-newb [n=john@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:41:39 I thought the point of this channel was to make jokes about java. 21:41:50 all the same 21:41:52 But that sure was interesting. 21:44:17 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 21:48:14 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.219.49] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:49:45 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:05 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:51:59 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:52:25 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:54:31 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:54:51 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:56:32 how to typeset a vector such as [1 2 3 4] 21:57:36 leo2007: you mean #(1 2 3 4) ? 21:57:40 sorry, wrong channel 21:57:57 i thought it was #latex 22:02:15 -!- timor [n=martin@p54B65866.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:02:32 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:03:01 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:03:03 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:03:48 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-96-255-111-135.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:22 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:05:17 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:06:18 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CD5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:06:48 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:07:28 -!- altious [n=alt@87.252.227.77] has quit ["q"] 22:08:30 salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has joined #lisp 22:13:26 is there a one line function to extract odd/even #s from a list? 22:14:46 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:15:50 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-083-182.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:16:02 Bigshot_: (remove-if-not #'evenp '(1 2 3 4 5)) ? 22:16:25 ahh good one 22:16:56 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@ip54517590.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:44 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-90-202.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:18:52 Is there a parse-float function like parse-integer? 22:19:06 clhs read-from-string 22:19:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_fro.htm 22:19:18 ravster: otherwise there's a parse-number in some library. 22:20:01 danlei [n=user@pD9E2CD5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:30 thanks 22:21:31 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-215-139.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:46 -!- Blkt [n=Blkt@dynamic-adsl-94-37-236-153.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:22:58 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-215-139.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:34 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:38 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 22:25:47 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:26:08 saikat_ [n=saikat@pool-71-163-70-52.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:25 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:27:35 -!- wbraun [n=Blinder@p5B2007C3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:27:55 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:33:00 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:33:06 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 22:36:54 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:37:10 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:39:38 jyujin_ [n=mdeining@82.113.121.123] has joined #lisp 22:40:43 is setting *break-on-signals* to T known to be broken? .. i'm using 1.0.29.54.rc2 and a fairly recent slime .. 22:40:47 oudeis [n=oudeis@192.117.29.141.static.012.net.il] has joined #lisp 22:41:21 the lisp connection is closed almost immediately when doing that 22:41:46 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:42:32 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:44:05 lnostdal: obviously, slime/swank doesn't install a virtual machine complete enough. 22:44:46 I got some help from someone in here a week or so ago about OpenGL VBO's in cl-opengl. Just letting you know I finally got an example to work. Thanks, whoever you are. 22:46:12 younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 22:46:43 commmmodo [n=commmmod@166.205.131.91] has joined #lisp 22:47:52 fullets1 [n=hg@robotines.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:48:06 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:02 -!- xan [n=xan@29.Red-83-59-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:52:38 -!- macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["sweet dreams"] 22:53:49 -!- demmel [n=demmel@p5B0C0292.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 22:58:42 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@98.220.168.14] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:58:53 benny` [n=benny@i577A0812.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:59:09 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A073D.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:00:23 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:00:55 -!- proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:01:40 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:13 -!- jyujin [n=mdeining@82.113.121.138] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:02:22 i'm starting to like lisp ;] 23:02:27 teh shock! 23:03:13 :) 23:03:26 rswarbrick [n=rswarbri@user-514c0d17.l1.c5.dsl.pol.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:03:27 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 23:04:04 what's the difference between (null l) and (atom l)? 23:04:38 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:04:44 (values (null 'x) (atom 'x)) 23:04:46 NIL 23:04:48 T 23:05:38 An object is an atom iff it is not a cons, I believe. 23:06:00 Is there any way to save the data I have from a csv file into another file in such a way as to have the nature of the data preserved? I have the data re-organised into a vector of objects of a user-defined class. Secondly, is there any reason why one would do this when the csv file is already available (Like efficiency or something)? 23:06:04 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:06:46 can someone elaborate a bit on "atom" and "null"? 23:07:03 Or should I just parse the csv-file every time I want to use that vector? 23:07:46 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 23:08:08 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:12 null indicates whether the argument is NIL. atom indicates whether it's not a CONS. 23:08:57 *Ralith* observes that a quick call to 'documentation' would have answered that easily 23:11:07 -!- jao [n=jao@0.Red-83-43-34.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:11:17 Bigshot_: when testing for the end of a list, (NULL list) becomes true only when the list is a proper list ; (ATOM list) becomes true when we reach the the last cdr of a dotted-list, which is not NIL, but another ATOM. ENDP could be used to get a clear error message upon reaching the end of a dotted-list. 23:11:46 When processing a proper list, use FIRST, REST and ENDP. 23:13:13 /quit 23:13:26 Erm, forgot I was using gui stuff. 23:13:30 -!- rswarbrick [n=rswarbri@user-514c0d17.l1.c5.dsl.pol.co.uk] has left #lisp 23:13:44 his gui stuff doesn't respect /quit? 23:13:45 weird. 23:14:03 Also use CAR AND CDR on CONS structures that are not a proper list.. At least I feels that helps avoid confusion. 23:15:24 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@pool-71-163-70-52.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:16:07 ravster: you can WRITE it to a file, then READ it back in as needed. 23:16:14 clhs read 23:16:14 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm 23:16:25 clhs write 23:16:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm 23:16:47 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@166.205.131.91] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:17:23 what's the meaning of this: a proper list is a cons in which the car points to a datum (which may be another cons structure, such as a list), and the cdr points to another proper list. 23:17:47 Bigshot_: is NIL a proper list? 23:18:09 hold on 23:18:49 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:01 yes it is a proper list - a empty list? 23:19:04 -!- ravster [n=user@67.204.25.27] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:19:08 Yes. 23:19:11 a empty proper list? 23:19:17 Yes. 23:19:17 Is FOO a proper list? 23:19:55 it depends on what `FOO' contains 23:20:08 ravster [n=user@67.204.25.27] has joined #lisp 23:20:13 heh 23:20:16 >.< 23:20:17 I would have asked whether the value of FOO is a proper list. 23:20:32 is 'FOO a proper list? 23:20:45 FOO is a symbol which is not NIL, so it's not an empty list, and as a symbol, it's not a CONS cell, so it's not a list. 23:20:49 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-96-255-111-135.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:20:50 Yes, 'FOO is a proper list. 23:21:04 'FOO is the proper list containing the symbols QUOTE and FOO. 23:21:28 but nil is not a cons, so the above sentence is self-contradictory 23:21:31 whats the grammar of a proper list? 23:21:33 lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:53 stepnem: no, because there are two clauses to the definition of a proper list. 23:22:07 proper-list ::= NIL | (Cons x proper-list) 23:22:16 koft [n=kvirc@adsl-221-79-167.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:18 pjb: I know, I was speaking about the sentence Bigshot_ quoted above 23:22:51 Anyways, FOO is not a proper list. So now is (A . NIL) a proper list? 23:23:17 gimme a sec :) 23:23:53 yes it is 23:24:03 Ok. Is (A . FOO) a proper list? 23:24:25 pjb: alist 23:24:38 Demosthenes: we're expecting a yes or no answer ;-) 23:25:04 if foo is not a proper list then how come it's in a list? 23:25:39 Bigshot_: Well, (A . FOO) is obtained by (cons 'a 'foo) ; it's a cons cell. Who is interpreting it as a list? 23:26:06 Bigshot_: you could consider it as a dotted-list. But it's not a proper list, since its cdr is FOO, which is not a proper list. 23:26:23 Is (B . (A . NIL)) a proper list? 23:26:30 yes 23:26:45 And so on: (C . (B . (A . NIL))) is a proper list too, etc. 23:26:56 We write properlists with this shortcut: (C B A) 23:26:59 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C5DF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:27:12 We write dotted lists with this shortcut: (C B A . FOO) 23:27:42 Bigshot_: can you write a proper-list-p predicate? 23:28:02 using the grammar yes 23:28:12 Go ahead, write it. 23:28:22 i need to consume what you wrote first :) 23:29:29 ok. Later, try to write a function (kind x) which returns :atom on atoms, :proper-list on proper lists, :dotted-list on dotted lists, and :circular-list on circular lists. 23:29:55 #1=(a b . #1#) is a circular list (a b a b a b ...) 23:30:19 (kind '#1=(a b . #1#)) --> :circular-list 23:30:32 (kind '(a b c)) --> :proper-list 23:30:38 (kind '(a b . c)) --> :dotted-list 23:30:47 (kind 'a) --> :atom 23:30:54 pjb: sounds a lot like something you'd want someone to write in prolog 23:31:14 It's easy enough to write in lisp too. 23:31:33 I'm going to bed now. Good night. 23:31:38 yeah sure, it's just some standard exercise stuff there :) 23:31:41 good night pjb 23:32:33 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:34:13 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:34:43 proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 23:39:16 -!- hiteki` [n=user@224.251.102-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:41:19 -!- tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p923e6b.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:42:34 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:22 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:46:57 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:47:05 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 23:48:30 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:49:29 -!- benny` is now known as benny