00:00:14 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:00:18 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [] 00:01:15 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-214-225.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:01:34 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-214-225.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 00:02:23 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:03:20 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:03:25 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:03:32 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:11 -!- lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:13:07 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:20 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 00:15:56 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-151-55.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:18:46 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:18:59 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:55 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:22:22 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 00:26:07 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:27:34 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:11 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-145-188.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:47 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:33:33 -!- jyujin [n=mdeining@82.113.106.164] has quit [] 00:34:20 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-208-194.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 00:34:50 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-194.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:34:56 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 00:36:15 -!- momerath42 [n=momerath@rrcs-70-60-90-159.central.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:38:27 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B316BAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:38:42 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has quit [] 00:38:45 dys [n=andreas@p5B316BAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:17 WarWeasle [n=brad@98.220.168.14] has joined #lisp 00:43:13 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-180-104-215.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:35 -!- lukjadOO7 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Client Quit] 00:44:44 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:45:46 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:46:30 schwinn434_ [n=schwinn4@cpe-75-81-202-25.we.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:48:06 cdwillis [n=dwm@c-98-223-195-59.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:23 -!- asksol [n=ask@062016247173.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Operation timed out] 00:49:02 -!- schwinn434_ [n=schwinn4@cpe-75-81-202-25.we.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:49:55 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@cpe-75-81-202-25.we.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:50:11 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 00:51:49 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has joined #lisp 00:54:06 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 00:56:33 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 00:56:55 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 00:58:48 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 01:02:35 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:02:47 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:04:43 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:05:16 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:31 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-dcf2329c87f44816] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:09:57 -!- ivank [i=ivan@93-97-51-193.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:13:11 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:46 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-125-21-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:29 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:26:30 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:32 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 01:27:44 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 01:30:53 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:02 elderK [n=elderK@222-152-95-210.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:31:23 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-95-210.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 01:34:29 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 01:39:45 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:45:25 Hello, does anyone have an example of using VBO's or bind-buffer in cl-opengl? 01:46:59 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["common lisp is a trainwreck"] 01:47:55 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:49:28 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:21 schwinn434_ [n=schwinn4@cpe-75-81-202-25.we.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:00:28 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:07:12 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:07:34 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:08:42 -!- cdwillis [n=dwm@c-98-223-195-59.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:10:22 kei__ [n=gueorgui@gmt.su] has joined #lisp 02:12:09 cdwillis [n=dwm@c-98-223-195-59.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:13 zzz 02:12:56 -!- kei_ [n=gueorgui@gmt.su] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:17:57 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:20 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:18:25 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 02:19:10 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:21:25 commmmodo [n=commmmod@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 02:22:50 How to make something for someone (who knows nothing about lisp) so that he can click and open up Emacs in slime rightaway? 02:23:12 lispbox 02:23:18 minion, tell leo2007 about lispbox 02:23:20 leo2007: direct your attention towards lispbox: Lispbox is a version of Lisp in a Box, which was originally created by Matthew Danish and Mikel Evins, customized for use with Practical Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/lispbox 02:25:02 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 02:25:50 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2EF1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 02:27:08 Strav [n=user@9-76.162.dsl.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 02:27:13 though, slime in it is slightly outdated, but it corresponds to what is described in PCL 02:27:33 some key-bindings were changed since then 02:28:09 -!- Strav [n=user@9-76.162.dsl.aei.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 02:29:23 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:29:25 -!- tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296b3d.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:30:20 repeat: Hello, does anyone have an example of using VBO's or bind-buffer in cl-opengl? 02:33:27 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:19 sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 02:36:10 -!- meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:36:16 meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:45 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:40:16 na [n=na@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 02:40:19 -!- na [n=na@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has left #lisp 02:40:23 na [n=na@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 02:42:14 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has quit [Client Quit] 02:42:20 -!- schwinn434_ [n=schwinn4@cpe-75-81-202-25.we.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:42:26 evening 02:42:36 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@cpe-75-81-202-25.we.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:42:39 morning 02:43:51 hey guys 02:43:59 hey whats up slyrus 02:44:33 that's a lot of m's 02:44:53 schwinn434_ [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has joined #lisp 02:45:24 lol 02:45:38 ladies say mmmmm when they see me 02:45:48 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:45:50 hahhaa 02:46:07 hmmm 02:48:52 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-d3d02c00fb8af693] has joined #lisp 02:48:56 I'm having trouble converting an array of cffi floats into a pointer for opengl's bind-buffer. 02:49:28 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 02:49:32 The error is: is not of type (UNSIGNED-BYTE 32). 02:50:51 well, make it to be of that type? 02:52:26 How, I've tried (make-pointer and I've tried making the array an :uint32 02:52:30 Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 02:52:56 <_3b> WarWeasle: you might get more useful answers if you provide more information about the problem 02:54:56 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:54:59 <_3b> WarWeasle: also, bind-buffer doesn't take any arrays as parameters 02:55:50 _3b: Sure, it's only two lines. (setf fbuf (cffi:foreign-alloc :float :count 20)) 02:55:50 (gl:bind-buffer :array-buffer-arb fbuf) 02:56:09 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 02:56:28 How can I coerce a cffi type? 02:56:39 <_3b> http://www.opengl.org/sdk/docs/man/xhtml/glBindBuffer.xml 02:56:53 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:57:14 <_3b> use gen-buffers to make a buffer name you can pass to that parameter 02:57:58 <_3b> then bind it and use buffer-data to copy the array to gl 02:58:15 _3b: Ok, I've been mistaken about what goes where. 02:58:23 :S 02:58:42 <_3b> (not sure what the actual exported api in cl-opengl is for that stuff, since i don't use it) 03:00:06 _3b: When I do (gl:gen-buffers 10) I get several zeros. 03:00:11 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:00:18 _3b: Do you know anything about that? 03:00:27 <_3b> are tyou calling it from a thread with a valid active gl context? 03:01:17 _3b: No, just the REPL. 03:03:08 _3b: Ok, I guess I need a window for this to work. 03:03:32 _3b: Sorry about the stupid questions. 03:05:05 -!- cdwillis is now known as logout 03:05:09 -!- logout [n=dwm@c-98-223-195-59.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:07:04 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-189-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:07 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:18 ramus`_ [n=ramus@adsl-69-209-193-174.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:31 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-76-223-66-85.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:20:50 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.122.36] has joined #lisp 03:22:56 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 03:25:10 -!- schwinn434_ [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has quit [Client Quit] 03:28:00 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@vpn-scm.mscsoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:28:04 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@98.220.168.14] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:30:26 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-d3d02c00fb8af693] has left #lisp 03:30:36 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:09 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 03:31:43 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.194.22] has quit [No route to host] 03:32:21 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:32:30 jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:32:36 -!- Python [n=mikef@pool-72-69-77-35.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 03:32:55 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:33:06 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0EDE.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:34:22 -!- na [n=na@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has quit [] 03:35:31 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:38:34 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:38:45 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:48 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p28230-ipngn101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:38:55 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:41:32 -!- ramus`_ is now known as ramus` 03:44:10 happypony [n=happypon@c-98-223-195-59.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:06 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-263d54c0b01b03a9] has joined #lisp 03:50:18 -!- spradnyesh is now known as hawkbill 03:50:33 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@cpe-75-81-202-25.we.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:51:17 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:33 benny [n=benny@i577A0EDE.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:56:25 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:31 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:22 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:07:06 cl-newb-aka-gent [n=richard@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:19 cdwillis [n=dwm@c-98-223-195-59.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:29 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:19:43 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.122.36] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:26:25 The mpg123 authors did a bad, bad thing. Now I get to think for a bit about how to fix my ffi binding to work when compile-time options cause its symbols to be renamed and binary compatibility to break. 04:30:01 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 04:44:46 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.122.36] has joined #lisp 04:47:38 na [n=na@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 04:47:58 -!- na [n=na@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 04:48:09 na [n=na@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 04:50:28 yo guys which script runs with gvim using clisp? 04:51:51 somebody killed kenny! X| 04:53:01 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has quit [] 04:57:56 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 05:01:38 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:05:24 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.122.36] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:05:47 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.122.36] has joined #lisp 05:07:54 -!- lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-3-247.dynamic.amis.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:16:51 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:31 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-263d54c0b01b03a9] has left #lisp 05:20:20 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 05:20:23 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-a9709ac43aac607d] has joined #lisp 05:21:25 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-41-17.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:32:06 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:33:03 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-6-68.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:48 -!- KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-7-109.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:33:53 -!- Quetzalcoatl_ [n=godless@cpe-71-72-235-91.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:37:39 -!- X-Scale is now known as TR2N 05:41:37 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-189-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:45:59 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-189-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:47:57 dalton2 [n=user7994@189-19-112-5.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 05:48:58 gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:52:42 dalton3 [n=user7994@189-19-114-37.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 05:56:08 -!- dalton3 [n=user7994@189-19-114-37.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Client Quit] 05:58:25 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:59:35 commmmodo [n=commmmod@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 06:02:37 -!- dalton [n=user7994@187.35.194.60] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:07:03 -!- dalton2 [n=user7994@189-19-112-5.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:10:29 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:12:58 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:15:00 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:15:06 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:17:49 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:17:51 commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 06:18:05 -!- commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 06:18:17 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:18:17 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest86922 06:19:32 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 06:21:02 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:22:07 -!- Guest86922 is now known as lexa_ 06:22:37 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest21667 06:24:06 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:24:16 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 06:25:34 schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-034-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:53 -!- cl-newb-aka-gent [n=richard@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:30:13 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6B75F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:33 -!- maxote [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:32:35 maxote [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 06:32:59 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-251-238.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 06:36:36 abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 06:38:03 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:42:11 -!- Guest21667 is now known as lexa_ 06:42:29 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 06:42:40 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest18041 06:47:23 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-40-3.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:49:24 -!- na [n=na@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 06:51:08 good morning 06:51:27 na [n=na@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 06:51:31 -!- na [n=na@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 06:51:44 commmmodo [n=commmmod@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 06:52:13 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 06:55:43 -!- free_thinker [n=willijar@134.151.144.246] has left #lisp 06:57:42 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 06:59:36 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:00:02 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:03 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:05:01 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@24.21.76.57] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:07:38 -!- Guest18041 is now known as lexa_ 07:08:08 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest67233 07:10:37 Blkt [n=Blkt@dynamic-adsl-94-37-225-156.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 07:11:18 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 07:12:34 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6B75F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:14:14 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:17:49 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:46 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:22:21 Numlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 07:23:43 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 07:25:24 -!- Guest67233 is now known as lexa_ 07:25:54 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest31528 07:27:53 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-12-96.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:28:15 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4c2a.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:30:23 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:32:03 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:32:52 plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.194.252] has joined #lisp 07:33:10 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 07:37:30 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:38:44 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:39:02 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:40:14 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 07:40:58 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:43:43 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-49-126.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:46:10 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 07:46:12 _8david [n=user@77-22-106-191-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:53:12 -!- Guest31528 is now known as lexa_ 07:53:42 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest86972 07:55:11 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-170-160.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 07:56:29 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-121-202.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 07:56:55 hello 07:57:05 hello 07:57:32 does anyone know a pretty printer for CL which can do customizable syntax highlighting? 07:57:47 You're asking two different things there. 07:57:51 and preferable works on the original syntax (for reader macros) 07:58:05 SLIME does syntax highlighting within source files. 07:58:25 pretty-printing is part of the CL standard, but it doesn't have anything to do with syntax highlighting. 07:58:29 SLIME uses regexps and it is kind of broken in various ways 07:58:39 it also cannot be easily used from a CL program 07:59:26 CL has a pretty-printer. 07:59:29 IMO pretty printing and syntax highlighting can live together 08:00:05 well, what are you trying to do? 08:00:05 another issue with the pretty printer is that it does not pretty print the original source but the result of read 08:00:10 -!- Guest86972 is now known as lexa_ 08:00:14 formatting source code in HTML 08:00:26 not manually, but automatically 08:00:37 source code can contain reader macros, etc. 08:00:39 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest95465 08:00:42 -!- jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:00:56 I think you're gonna have to roll-your-own here. 08:01:16 that's what I also thought I just wanted to double check 08:01:25 climacs should already contain one 08:01:54 reader macros are sort of tricky to get right... 08:02:45 michaelw, I have a simple working example for that 08:03:49 unfortunately most of the reader has to be reimplemented for that 08:04:11 that's what I meant with "tricky" :) 08:04:48 BTW, that would solve the issues with the current SLIME regexp based indentation 08:04:58 levy: have you taken a look at climacs' syntax highlighting? 08:05:30 nowhere_man, I am looking at the source right now, but haven't find anything interesting yet 08:06:03 I guess it's climacs-lisp-syntax.lisp 08:06:26 levy: you might want to read http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/climacssyntax.pdf 08:07:03 not sure how much accurate it still is, but it should provide you with a good high-level view of this part of climacs' code 08:08:26 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:08:38 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 08:12:43 nowhere_man, it looks promising and i also found cl-syntax.lisp, unfortunately it looks pretty much hooked into climacs, so it might be a headache to factor it out 08:13:16 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-84-151.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:13:51 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:15:33 i wish there would be a standalone project to portably parse cl source files into a parse tree with source locations 08:15:50 and with handling reader macros (clearly it would need minimal work in the reader macro provider libs too) 08:15:56 isn't cl source basically a parse tree anyway, bar reader macr-- 08:15:57 ah. 08:16:57 Ralith, even without reader macros it is not, at least not in the sense knowing where the forms are in the input 08:17:29 well, one way or another it seems pretty easy to parse 08:18:18 with indentation, for example, isn't it just a matter of counting the number of (s before point and subtracting the number of )s, then accomidating for anything determined to be a macro? 08:19:11 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 08:19:39 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 08:20:09 Ralith, i think no, it's better to leave formatting to individual forms recursively 08:20:10 what's the general opinion of reader macros, by the way? Should they be avoided as much as possible? Should really commonly-used forms be popped into basic reader macros, or what? 08:21:23 levy: my point is that it seems like a pretty simple problem, however you want to go about it, at least up until you start wanting to do things like determine what is and isn't a function (at which point I imagine you basically have to compile the code) 08:21:26 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 08:21:30 sykopomp: don't use unless you need them 08:22:03 stassats: what would you consider something necessary? 08:22:27 I'm working on something where I have a global hash table that stores a bunch of very commonly-used objects. 08:23:02 so I made a #@ reader macro that turns #@foo into (find-object 'foo). (this seems to be in line with the #'function approach) 08:23:35 i'm fine with (find-object 'foo) 08:23:38 sykopomp: and some people use #@ for time objects, as far as i know 08:23:40 Ralith, i guess if it would be pretty simple then we would already have it, instead of fighting with SLIME's regexp based indentation 08:24:01 stassats: even when you'd be constantly writing (find-object 'foo) (find-object 'bar) (find-object 'baz)? 08:24:04 maybe the lib is simple-time or something like that 08:24:14 levy: never assume that someone didn't just do something incredibly stupid. 08:24:20 jdz: yeah, #@ doesn't seem like the best choice, either. 08:25:08 typing f-o and completing that does not seem very tedious, really 08:25:24 sykopomp: i'd just not write that constantly 08:25:49 stassats: what if you had to write (find-class 'foo) in every single defclass and make-instance? 08:25:59 would that be fine, too? 08:27:04 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:27:05 i don't like "what if" 08:27:13 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:30:05 and it's different, since you don't write (make-instance #@foo) maybe your functions, which are intended to work with objects should do the same? 08:30:43 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:31:26 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:31:52 -!- schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-034-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:33:16 stassats: well, what I'm doing is that I keep a certain group of objects meant to act as prototypes in their own namespace (so they can easily be redefined, and so they can't simply be shadowed by dynamic bindings, and such). The prototypes are the same kind of object as regular clones, so when they're actually used to do stuff, I can't just assume that any symbol is going to refer to a proto name. 08:35:33 lynx` [i=lynx@freeshell.org] has joined #lisp 08:35:50 ah, nevermind, maybe it's the separate-namespace I should be getting rid of :\ 08:36:28 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 08:36:38 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:37:04 -!- lynx` [i=lynx@freeshell.org] has left #lisp 08:37:46 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has quit [] 08:38:41 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-19-120.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:38:57 -!- Guest95465 is now known as lexa_ 08:39:27 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest83664 08:41:37 lispm [n=joswig@e177126033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:43:43 -!- Guest83664 is now known as lexa_ 08:44:13 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest1288 08:44:44 cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 08:45:24 -!- sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:48:45 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 08:50:57 free_thinker [n=willijar@134.151.144.246] has joined #lisp 08:52:47 -!- jao [n=jao@94.Red-88-6-161.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:52:51 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:53:37 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:54:05 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-205-98-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 jmbr [n=jmbr@guest245.gti.ssr.upm.es] has joined #lisp 08:56:55 -!- cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:57:53 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 08:59:51 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-95-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:04:03 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:09:35 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@guest245.gti.ssr.upm.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:09:35 sykopomp: indeed, #\ could be a better character for a reader-macro expanding to find-object. 09:12:56 lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 09:13:10 i guess i almost found what i was looking for at http://darcs.informatimago.com/local/darcs/public/lisp/common-lisp/summary.html 09:13:33 look at COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.SOURCE-FORM, COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.READER and COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.SOURCE-TEXT 09:13:50 it implements a generic CL reader keeping source locations and all that 09:14:02 i said almost because if i load it the tests just don't work 09:14:08 -!- Guest1288 is now known as lexa_ 09:14:38 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest6445 09:15:26 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D97D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:17 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 09:24:17 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 09:24:29 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 09:25:14 dys` [n=andreas@p5B316B6F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:34 -!- jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [] 09:31:02 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B316BAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:31:45 -!- Guest6445 is now known as lexa_ 09:32:15 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest82182 09:33:06 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:35:00 ah, i managed to make it work 09:35:23 thanks to Pascal Bourguignon for this stuff 09:36:32 actually it can read its own 1200 LOC source into a structure with locations and print it (with preserving whitespaces) 09:37:55 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 09:39:05 asksol_ [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 09:43:44 -!- Guest82182 is now known as lexa_ 09:43:57 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 09:44:14 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest84417 09:45:08 -!- lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:46:49 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 09:52:25 joswig [n=joswig@e177121045.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:53:34 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:53:35 timchen119 [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 09:55:14 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177126033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:56:40 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit ["leaving"] 10:00:21 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:49 ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 10:01:06 i want to start learning lisp, can someone give me some guidance as to which version i should install (clisp sbcl cmu lisp)? 10:01:25 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-3-90.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:02:30 cdwillis: they are all fine, I think 10:03:48 i installed clisp, emacs, and slime, but i wasn't sure if there was a preferred dialect of lisp 10:04:12 cdwillis: I am using SBCL mostly, but I have heard that if you're using Windows, clisp may be a better choice 10:04:18 i just started looking at the practical common lisp book online 10:04:44 that is good 10:05:06 i just have to get over using emacs, i've never really messed with it 10:05:14 i've been using vim for a while 10:05:33 if you can spare half an hour, take the builtin tutorial 10:06:20 also change the keybindings to what you prefer in an editor 10:06:54 you can get the tutorial with C-h t 10:07:03 cool 10:08:18 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:08:44 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:09:23 join the ECLM dinners or not.. choices, choices. 10:09:36 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-194.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 10:09:52 on saturday or sunday? 10:09:56 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-194.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 10:10:42 i'm not sure about sunday yet, got a pregnant woman at home :) 10:11:51 commmmodo [n=commmmod@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 10:12:04 have you been at an eclm or another Lisp meeting before? 10:13:04 Reav___ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:14:18 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:15:27 -!- Orest^bnc is now known as Orest 10:16:15 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:28 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-19-120.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:17:33 joswig: no, i wanted to go to one in amsterdam a few years back, even registered but couldn't 10:18:34 the interesting experience for some Lisp users is to meet lots of other Lisp users in real life 10:18:47 this is kind of interesting and unusual 10:18:52 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-3-90.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:19:12 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 10:19:24 if you are comfortable with meeting other humans and especially Lisp users, then I would recommend to take the time 10:19:36 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-29-124.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:19:45 fasta [n=a@217.109.160.5] has joined #lisp 10:19:59 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 10:20:27 if the pregnant wife allows it 10:20:34 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:30 I'm definitely doing it to meet people. Boat tour sounds like fun as well :) 10:21:52 it is, where are you from? 10:22:20 Netherlands 10:22:30 so it's quite doable all in all 10:22:43 that's not too far 10:22:57 but you may have seen a city with an harbour ;-) 10:23:03 I'll probably drive back home Sunday night 10:23:41 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:24:03 Arthur and Edi seem to have invested a lot effort in touristic activities 10:24:14 the hotel is also impressive 10:24:21 Hamburg is quite nice. especially with good weather :) 10:24:48 there is no such thing as bad weather, only wrong clothing ;-) 10:25:27 the boat tour is also impressive during bad weather 10:25:29 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 10:25:56 Arthur and Edi also have a great line-up of speakers 10:26:46 very international 10:27:03 joswig: btw, you are digging up quite some good links on the lisp sub-reddit. Hard to keep up with reading :) 10:27:15 I'd guess that they might enjoy the boat trip, too 10:27:28 michealw, what did you like most? 10:28:27 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:29:08 seems also that there is lots of activity in implementations 10:29:16 some interesting stuff for SBCL 10:29:23 CMUCL got Unicode 10:29:23 joswig: did you work on Neuroarena as well? 10:29:27 no 10:29:36 CLISP gets threads 10:29:56 CCL gets IDE improvements 10:30:07 Lots of ECL activity 10:30:17 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D97D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:30:27 Yuuhi [i=benni@84.131.217.125] has joined #lisp 10:31:14 joswig: just the general mix, the CCL posts, the verification stuff I didn't know about, I learned about shuffletron from there, etc. 10:32:18 jmbr [n=jmbr@guest245.gti.ssr.upm.es] has joined #lisp 10:32:44 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:33:21 I need a small rover, I have a mac mini at home, use Lisp for the 'autonomy', ;-), it could hunt for snails in the garden 10:33:40 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 10:35:00 i'd like it for finding mushrooms in the forest 10:39:32 lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 10:42:33 -!- kei__ is now known as kei 10:43:00 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:43:16 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:55 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 10:47:15 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@imaxeson.net] has joined #lisp 10:49:03 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 10:49:13 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit ["KVIrc 3.2.6 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/"] 10:50:11 hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.100] has joined #lisp 10:51:24 Any progress on the SBCL LLVM backend ? ;-) 10:51:50 Sikander [n=soemraws@wirenat-eld.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has joined #lisp 10:51:59 was there any at all? 10:52:33 I thought it was an ongoing #lisp in-joke 10:53:18 LLVM would be a nightmare to target with SBCL. 10:53:48 <_8david> s/nightmare/dream/ ? 10:56:56 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@guest245.gti.ssr.upm.es] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:57:28 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-29-124.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:00:23 _8david: There would be a lot of work. A compiler that emits llvm bytecode is one thing. But what happens to sbcl.exe and the runtime? Where do you bootstrap from? Also you need to plug your own GC into LLVM. If it worked, it would be a dream. Actually implementing it would be another thing. 11:00:29 roidrage [n=roidrage@p54BE8DBC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:00:48 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@p54BE8DBC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 11:01:58 cracki [n=cracki@45-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:02:13 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 11:02:18 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 11:02:28 <_8david> certainly, but arguably "a lot of work" != nightmare 11:03:19 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:05:44 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:06:43 depends on the work 11:07:26 *cmm* is doing merges all week. *not* fun 11:07:29 plage [n=user@58.186.146.148] has joined #lisp 11:07:33 Good evening! 11:08:38 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 11:10:12 hello plage! 11:10:13 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-170-160.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:10:21 hey mvilleneuve What's up? 11:14:41 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 11:17:24 joswig: that's definitely a gap in the market. I see a million eb business opportunity! ;) 11:18:33 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 11:18:43 -!- happypony [n=happypon@c-98-223-195-59.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:19:06 serichsen: eb? 11:19:24 hypno: eurobucks ;) 11:19:37 oh, heh. 11:20:30 merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has joined #lisp 11:20:34 Wow! This thunderstorm is worse than most of the ones in Bordeaux, which is pretty hard. 11:22:16 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-a9709ac43aac607d] has left #lisp 11:22:44 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:12 I gave a 2x2h CL seminar here (last Friday and last Monday) which attracted some 12 students. I *hope* to have convinced them that #lisp is a friendly place, so a subset of them might show up. 11:23:56 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:24:53 ECL aims to go the LLVM route, once Juan lands the compiler rewrite. 11:25:00 happypony [n=happypon@c-98-223-195-59.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:26:11 -!- happypony [n=happypon@c-98-223-195-59.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:28:57 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:30:56 happypony [n=happypon@c-98-223-195-59.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:06 -!- cdwillis [n=dwm@c-98-223-195-59.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 11:31:46 deepfire: it makes a lot more sense for ECL 11:31:58 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:05 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:32:14 deepfire: Parrot seems a lot more lisp-friendly, though. 11:32:30 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:32:45 -!- Orest is now known as Orest^bnc 11:33:24 ZabaQ: can we generate bytecode from perl? 11:35:04 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:25 matimago: Probably, but the whole point of Parrot is you don't need to AFAIK. 11:37:16 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:27 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:38:51 ZabaQ: the point would be to write a lisp compiler bootstrapper in perl, so we can write "perl" programs in Lisp... 11:38:57 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:39:10 Something like ABCL but for Perl. 11:39:49 We could call it: WOCL for Weaponized Oyster CL... 11:40:13 matimago: I was just thinking about ways to get Oyster in there :) 11:40:54 CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.112.157] has joined #lisp 11:41:06 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["brb"] 11:42:47 Probably ABCL comes from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_Bean_Bears 11:43:10 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:11 -!- Guest84417 is now known as lexa_ 11:43:41 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest29546 11:44:29 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:45:38 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 11:46:23 hmm, yeah, that looks plausible. 11:47:24 Wasn't there a CL for Parrot already? 11:47:31 Wikipedia is great for cross culture. Its exploitation could lead to the first really good translation software... 11:47:32 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:48:05 luis: there are some lisps in the source tree 11:48:56 Indeed: http://groups.google.com/group/perl.perl6.internals/browse_thread/thread/bd016ece7efbf6dc 11:50:20 A whole new CL? Isn't that a tad ambitious? 11:50:28 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:38 ZabaQ: we don't really need a whole new CL. 11:51:06 just good old ANSI CL? 11:51:06 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-121-202.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:51:13 We'd only need a subset of CL allowing us to implement a whole CL in CL. Then only this subset would have to be ported to get a full CL anywhere. 11:51:27 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-251-238.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 11:52:04 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-140.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:52:42 matimago: You say "we": does this mean you are working on Parrot CL, too? 11:52:47 -!- Guest29546 is now known as lexa_ 11:53:12 No. But I played with the idea of implementing a subset of CL in strange languages such as bash, perl, etc. 11:53:17 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest42203 11:53:57 Ah. 11:54:46 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-140.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 11:54:55 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 11:55:49 -!- blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:56:16 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-21-234.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 11:56:35 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:56:59 matimago: There's BBN Common Lisp, implemented on top of Scheme... 11:57:20 There's Sacla too. But it uses a full CL. 11:57:43 BBN could be interesting, it's easier to write a scheme VM... 11:58:12 matimago: Perhaps we should collaborate. My SICL (or whatever I called it that day) depends on a similar idea. 11:58:30 matimago: The dialect is BBN Scheme though. Closest to MIT Scheme as far as I can tell. 11:58:46 plage: if you could help me free myself from my C++ chains ;-) 11:59:05 matimago: I tried to be careful extracting stuff that could be implemented with lower level stuff. 11:59:18 matimago: I am not sure I can be of any help there. 11:59:37 plage: I could send you this evening what I've worked on. 12:00:11 matimago: sure, but don't expect a quick reply. I am still swamped. Just taking a short break and then I go to dinner. 12:00:50 matimago: hell, I can't even remember what I implemented, other than format. Someone remind me? 12:00:51 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:01:13 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:01:52 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.122.36] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:01:53 is there a good place on the web to learn about lisp for CGI 12:02:21 plage: erm, I don't see any AI or robotics master at labri ?! 12:02:28 ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:03:01 plage: loop? 12:03:16 isismelting: rob warnock has written about it a little, check google groups 12:03:28 isismelting: he presents a practical way to do it with cmucl which would work with other lisps. 12:03:50 isismelting: it is also pretty common to run a lisp webserver instead 12:03:50 isismelting: well, it's about as easy as to use any other language really, and it works the same (retarded) way too. :) 12:04:03 stassats: right, thanks! 12:04:09 *plage* has a horrible memory. 12:04:24 maybe CGI, the computer-generated imagery? 12:04:24 matimago: true, were you expecting one? 12:04:45 iisjmii [n=iisjmii@dhcp-077-248-127-112.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 12:05:43 Well, I'm fancying the idea of going back to university to do a master in AI or robotics (or automatic programming, but that'd be part of AI). 12:06:04 Hello, does any body know if there is an object serialisation package for lisp, like Pickle in Python? 12:06:08 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:06:13 matimago: I am afraid I couldn't justify creating one just for you. 12:06:14 iisjmii: PRINT and READ 12:06:15 isismelting: i use lisp-cgi-utils with CLISP and apache. but ontop of that, you either have to write your own "framework", or use somebody elses. 12:06:25 iisjmii: cl-serializer? 12:06:29 plage: :-) Wouldn't more Bordeaux students be interested? 12:06:48 jmbr [n=jmbr@guest245.gti.ssr.upm.es] has joined #lisp 12:06:48 Robotics seems to be developing more in France. 12:07:00 p_l: thanls 12:07:18 *ks 12:07:29 matimago: There are not enough students to go around these days, and the more programs we have, the fewer students per program, so they are not "profitable". 12:08:13 Not enough students!? Do we need to make babies, or do we need to motivate people to go into computer stuff? 12:08:20 yes and yes 12:08:38 :-) 12:09:20 matimago: Just the latter, actually. More babies would contribute to the chain-letter economy we know have, which is going to kill us all one day. 12:09:43 Jasko [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:04 We should invite Madoff's judge as French Justice Minister... 12:10:19 matimago: In Bordeaux, we are not suffering too much, but world-wide, it's apparently dramatic, to Xof indicated that the trend has been reversed with the financial crisis. 12:10:40 matimago: Not sure how that would make more students apply to robotics. 12:11:00 He would hopefully help breaking the chain-letter economy. 12:11:13 matimago: Ah, yes, I see. 12:12:37 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 12:13:10 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:16:04 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-239-87.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:16:04 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-151-55.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:17:10 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.132.244] has joined #lisp 12:18:21 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.112.157] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:18:23 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:18:50 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:18:52 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-180-104-215.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:21:58 -!- iisjmii [n=iisjmii@dhcp-077-248-127-112.chello.nl] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 12:21:59 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:11 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:23:33 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 12:26:38 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:26:45 -!- lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:27:58 lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 12:28:04 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 12:28:36 -!- plage [n=user@58.186.146.148] has left #lisp 12:28:59 *wgl* wakes up 12:29:10 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:31:42 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:32:42 artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has joined #lisp 12:33:14 Something's very obviously wrong with my code. I still haven't got the hang of quoting and macroexpander :( 12:33:19 artagnon pasted "expander macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82832 12:33:47 I wasn't sure it should even be a macro, so I made it a function instead 12:34:18 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-17-83.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:17 artagnon: it's not clear what you want to do. You've got a lot of procedures. Couldn't you convert that into functions? 12:35:35 artagnon: what does hashtable-parser-expander do? 12:35:40 blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has joined #lisp 12:35:46 matimago: Ok, I'll explain. 12:35:52 Notice that MAPHASH returns NIL. Nothing useful. 12:36:33 I'm trying to perform the set of in-place destructive operations (described in the progn) on response-hashtable 12:36:54 Why do you want them to be in-place destructive? 12:37:01 Couldn't you do that with pure functions? 12:37:11 dlowe [n=dlowe@pool-72-72-99-62.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:13 hm. I could. 12:37:22 matimago: wait, I'll try and post an annotation 12:37:23 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Operation timed out] 12:37:26 Ok. 12:38:44 sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has joined #lisp 12:38:56 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:39:02 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:39:27 artagnon annotated #82832 "not in-place destructive anymore" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82832#1 12:39:48 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:40:20 Looks better isn't it? 12:40:31 matimago: much! Thanks :) 12:40:39 You could easily switch to LET instead of SETF. 12:40:59 It may seem like it would duplicate storage, but on the contary, the compiler can better optimize out a LET than a SETF. 12:41:02 CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.112.157] has joined #lisp 12:41:27 (let ((a ...)) (setf a (f a)) ... a) --> (let ((a ...)) (let ((a (f a))) ... a) 12:41:31 ) 12:41:38 matimago: I see. Then I have to nest two let statements and keep the final response-hashtable statement inside them 12:41:44 Yes. 12:42:04 ok, got it. Will annotate momentarily 12:42:59 artagnon annotated #82832 "setf -> let" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82832#2 12:43:00 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 12:43:12 matimago: it looks messy 12:43:20 can I do something to make it look nicer? 12:43:37 Indent better: let emacs do the indentation. 12:44:02 In the case of gethash, you cannot use let, you have to use setf. 12:44:12 matimago: right, I understand. 12:44:21 I AM using Emacs to do the indentation! 12:44:23 *artagnon* checks 12:44:41 oh, the let statement is flawe 12:44:44 flawed 12:45:06 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229088073.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:46:26 artagnon annotated #82832 "Corrected let syntax" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82832#3 12:46:32 matimago: now? 12:46:48 pjb annotated #82832 "my way" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82832#4 12:47:05 LiamH [n=none@208.72.159.207] has joined #lisp 12:47:08 Yes, it's good. 12:47:12 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:47:30 matimago: thanks! I have an idea to make it look even nicer. Wait, I'll annotate and show you 12:47:51 artagnon: err, check my paste, since yours didn't correct the (let (((gethash ... which is wrong. 12:48:44 Also, mine has left the selected-hash-table inside the when you want to put it after. 12:48:54 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-140.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:49:32 matimago: ah yes. Thanks. 12:50:31 and sorry about the (let (gethash ... -- I wasn't paying attention while changing it 12:51:31 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:52:13 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-132-156.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:54:21 matimago: thanks again, it looks perfect now. I'll remember to use let and non-destructive operations wherever I can. 12:55:05 artagnon: there's a big advantage in non destructive operations: when testing them the result only depends on the arguments. So you can more easily test and debug them, and once they're good, they stay good. 12:55:25 *artagnon* nods 12:55:42 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:55:57 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.112.157] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:56:29 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-181-244.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 12:56:32 serichsen annotated #82832 "reduce duplication" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82832#5 12:58:26 serichse1: OMG! Awesome :D 12:58:28 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@imaxeson.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:58:43 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@imaxeson.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:52 artagnon: nah, just a detail :) 12:59:01 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 12:59:33 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 12:59:51 -!- Guest42203 is now known as lexa_ 13:00:08 serichsen: it's *much* cleaner now. And it's the easier and more direct approach. 13:00:20 My convoluted thinking split it up into two functions in the first place. 13:00:20 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest39553 13:00:31 artagnon: um, i think you misunderstood 13:00:39 artagnon: i only changed the first function a bit 13:01:02 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-39-152.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:01:05 serichsen: no, no. I understand. 13:01:13 The second function obviously remains 13:01:45 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:01:52 lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-3-247.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:58 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 13:01:59 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-39-152.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:02:11 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-39-152.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:03:20 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-41-17.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:38 -!- artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:05:47 rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-181-244.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 13:05:49 -!- rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-181-244.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:05:53 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-181-244.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:06:04 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-181-244.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 13:06:43 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 13:06:51 -!- Guest39553 is now known as lexa_ 13:07:21 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest89104 13:12:26 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["gbu"] 13:14:12 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@131.173.18.85] has joined #lisp 13:15:30 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@131.173.18.85] has quit [Client Quit] 13:15:47 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@131.173.18.85] has joined #lisp 13:16:23 HET2 [i=diman@128.131.95.22] has joined #lisp 13:17:17 roidrage [n=roidrage@p54BE8DBC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:17:44 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:18:37 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 13:19:13 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:46 jdijk [i=jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has joined #lisp 13:23:58 -!- jdijk [i=jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 13:24:11 -!- HET2 [i=diman@128.131.95.22] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:24:25 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@guest245.gti.ssr.upm.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:27:27 davazp [n=user@79.153.148.56] has joined #lisp 13:28:35 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:30:09 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 13:30:39 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-242.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:31:31 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@p54BE8DBC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 13:33:04 -!- Guest89104 is now known as lexa_ 13:33:34 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest75018 13:36:53 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:38:20 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:16 vng [n=demen@222.253.102.207] has joined #lisp 13:42:01 hessiess [n=a@91.111.27.80] has joined #lisp 13:42:04 -!- merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has quit [] 13:42:23 Package question of the day: how do you make (let ((*package* (find-package :foo))) (defvar *bar*)) put *bar* in :foo? 13:42:56 no easy way 13:43:15 Does slime do it? 13:43:17 just (defvar foo:*bar*) 13:43:18 herbieB: (defvar foo:*bar*) 13:43:28 but i suspect that isn't your real question... 13:44:05 herbieB: no, slime doesn't do it 13:44:08 Xach: That would be correct, but it is the distilled version of it. You would be correct in that I do not know :foo at runtime, nor do I even know if defvar is the form being used. 13:44:24 stassats: So that means if you ahve multiple connections to one swank, they must share *package*? 13:45:03 no, that doesn't mean that 13:45:04 -!- Guest75018 is now known as lexa_ 13:45:24 that means that slime sets package before reading, not after 13:45:34 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest56242 13:45:35 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 13:45:38 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:45:43 Ooooohhh, this is a reader issue, not an eval one. 13:45:46 OOOOOOHhhhhh 13:46:00 *herbieB* is enlightened. 13:46:42 *serichsen* averts his eyes, not to be blinded 13:46:44 *dlowe* applauds politely. 13:47:12 herbieB: reminds me a little of the (progn (load "foo.lisp") (foo:bar 42)) issue 13:47:23 dlowe: with one hand? 13:47:41 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 13:48:01 stassats: no, that would be "applauding zennically" 13:48:15 Xach: I have never heard of that issue. 13:48:28 (funcall (read-from-string "foo:bar") 42) 13:48:31 right. 13:48:53 huh? 13:49:00 herbieB: it's a real headscratcher until you have a good mental model of the read phase 13:49:10 we need a lazy reader 13:49:13 and maybe everything else, too... 13:49:25 can I read something about that somewhere? 13:49:26 -!- lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:49:31 Xach: Yeah, I unedrstand that. I was just lookign for my problem in the wrong place. My reader exists in a different thread than my evaluator. 13:49:44 I am synchornozing those two threads poorly. 13:50:28 serichsen: i can explain it, if you like. 13:50:43 that would be nice :) 13:50:50 i don't know of a specific page that covers the problem and solution 13:51:02 clhs 23 13:51:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/23_.htm 13:51:43 serichsen: imagine foo.lisp defines a package FOO and a function FOO:BAR that takes one argument and returns it. in a freshly started lisp, what will (progn (load "foo.lisp") (foo:bar 42)) do? 13:52:32 that was the question... I would naively expect 42, but it seems that I am missing something 13:52:44 ah 13:52:45 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 13:52:50 or (progn #.(load "foo.lisp") (foo:bar 42)) 13:53:06 serichsen: it will give an error that there's no such package FOO, because the reader has to read the whole form before evaluating any of its parts. 13:53:18 but if resolving the package is a reader thing 13:53:28 serichsen: so there are ways to get around that; don't use a single form, or do more things at read-time, etc. 13:53:40 use the funcall read-from-string trick... 13:53:54 (hack the reader to create a temporary package) 13:53:57 most people just make more files and use a defsystem 13:53:58 danlei [n=user@217.226.237.40] has joined #lisp 13:54:18 yeah, i think the last time i ran into this was in my ~/.sbclrc but i can't remember the exact context 13:54:24 yeah, i don't expect this to come up in practice too often, but still 13:54:27 has anyone tryied the latest IDE stuff in CCL? is it still using hemlock? 13:54:41 is that right? resolving the package is done by the reader? 13:54:53 hypno: I haven't (no mac to hand), but it does 13:55:04 swank-loader has lots of funcalls of r-f-s 13:55:18 cmm: ah, roger that, thanks. 13:55:25 serichsen: at read-time, yes 13:55:40 hypno: If you try it out, you can give feedback and ask questions in #ccl. 13:56:40 When did comon-lisp.net go en Espanol? 13:57:24 sellout: i've been reluctant to upgrade my CCL (RC1) because i run tiger and have a really slow connection. but maybe i will. i'm no fan of hemlock tho. 13:57:51 -!- danlei [n=user@217.226.237.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:58:20 serichsen: a symbol (interned one, anyway) is an object identified by its name and package. the reader returns such objects, thus the package has to be known when a symbol is read. and that package is either the value of *package* or whatever is written before the semicolon 13:58:42 serichsen: it all is really much simpler than it looks at first :) 13:58:46 hypno: Well, the IDE is in pretty active development at the moment, you might like what you see. 13:58:50 *p_l* wonders if using weblocks-dev was good idea 13:59:30 p_l: why? 13:59:48 sellout: alright, i'll give it a try then. :) 13:59:54 hypno: It's funded and the changes are based on user requests (so hopefully they are things that will be quite appreciated) 14:00:40 ...and presumably changing the editor substrate for no reason is not one of those things 14:00:50 rstandy: I've got problems with it looking for clsql-fluid, and for some reason my tries to install it didn't really work 14:01:01 sellout: i was sort of hoping it would take on a more machish twist and break away from the unix/emacs-design. has it progressed in that direction? 14:01:03 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-39-152.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:01:03 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-39-152.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:01:41 hypno: In some ways it has. Maybe not as much as you hope, though. 14:01:47 p_l: uhm I could help if you'll be more specific 14:02:15 A minor way that has been sorted out recently: text selection works like Macs now. 14:02:16 p_l: and a bit tolerant about my bad english ;-) 14:02:17 cmm: thanks, i think i got it now 14:02:21 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@131.173.18.85] has quit ["Verlassend"] 14:02:27 are there any Clozure IDE screenshots? 14:02:28 sthalik [n=sthalik@c142-216.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:02:31 hey 14:02:45 i once saw a function on c.l.l that computed a random iq 14:02:49 but now i can't find that function 14:02:52 -!- sthalik is now known as weirdo 14:02:59 could someone give me a hint, please? 14:03:20 um 14:03:33 p_l: I uses weblocks-dev with sbcl 1.0.27 installed through clbuild 14:03:42 weirdo: you mean a random number inside a certain range? 14:03:48 rstandy: I installed clsql through clbuild as well as all weblocks deps, except that weblocks was pulled from weblocks-dev, not weblocks-stable. Despite following instructions on clsql-fluid page, it complains about :clsql-fluid not found 14:03:59 weirdo: intelligence quotient? 14:04:03 yes 14:04:12 serichsen: except that 100 is most probable and 200, well, isn't 14:04:19 42 14:04:38 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-194.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:04:49 p_l: let me see what version of clsql-fluid I have 14:05:07 stassats: Hrmm, can't find any quickly. We'll need to remedy that. 14:05:16 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [No route to host] 14:05:51 (+ 60 (random 150)) 14:06:09 sellout: indeed. actually, given the quality of the implementation, it really deserves more hype and marketing. :) 14:06:10 nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:23 G'morning all. 14:06:55 lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 14:07:07 moin nyef 14:07:47 Anything interesting happening today? 14:08:20 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/ecd6ff667935b1e7/34082a4778e97eb8?#34082a4778e97eb8 14:08:25 found it m'self 14:08:30 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:08:35 hey, nyef 14:10:02 Google groups is blocked here. :-/ 14:10:18 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:47 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 14:11:11 p_l: Do you have the fluid-pools branch from s11 git repository? 14:12:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box-Muller_transform 14:12:49 p_l: you can check that by moving to the clsql directory and execute: git branch 14:12:50 rstandy: in theory, yes 14:13:03 this is not homework. could someone please tell me what it says in english? it's full of scary math symbols 14:13:16 -!- abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:13:24 i think it's that function but it says "ln" which isn't fbound for me 14:13:33 clhs log 14:13:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_log.htm 14:14:44 p_l: does `git branch' gives you "fluid-pools" as output? 14:15:51 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 14:15:57 rstandy: yup 14:16:12 *p_l* is cleaning out fasls and recompiling everything to make sure 14:16:13 jmbr [n=jmbr@223.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:16:28 p_l: ok. Have you symlinked clsql-fluid.asd in you systems directory? 14:17:17 http://compbio.uchsc.edu/Hunter_lab/Hunter/cl-statistics.lisp - wow, this is so sweet 14:17:20 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@77.125.76.116] has joined #lisp 14:17:34 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 14:18:15 rstandy: now I have - it was somehow missed before 14:19:18 brb, somethings wrong with connection 14:20:33 levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-242-198.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:20:37 p_l: so it now loads clsql-fluid? What connection it complains about? 14:21:47 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:22:20 pjb annotated #82832 "or even with symbol-macrolet" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82832#6 14:22:39 rstandy: the connection thing was with my internet connection 14:22:57 <_8david> stassats: http://www.spezify.com/#/openmcl ide 14:23:02 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 14:23:03 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229085245.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:23:06 -!- fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229085245.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:23:07 p_l: doh :-) 14:23:16 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229085245.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:23:22 this time it compiled correctly, but I think I'm gonna need ethernet cable soon 14:23:49 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181145219.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:25:34 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:26:05 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:27:51 nyef: do you think there's a particular reason we have alloc-bignum-in-foo instead of a single alloc routine reg-reg XCHG around? 14:28:41 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:29:01 I understood that sentence up to "routine" 14:29:19 On systems where I-cache behavior isn't as important to performance, I'd expect the reduced instruction counts to be important. 14:29:30 ... not. 14:30:00 * "... routine and use reg-reg XCHG around" 14:30:05 Xof: Yeah, it's a little incoherent at the end. I presume it means... yeah. That. 14:30:22 ah, I see 14:32:05 i just cvs updated SLIME and when typing (find _) there's no color on the message bar 14:32:50 fiveop__ [n=fiveop@g230018213.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:32:57 does it work for you? 14:33:05 works for me 14:33:13 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-166.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:33:16 i'll try building new sbcl 14:33:31 i don't think sbcl might be a problem 14:34:12 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:36:15 Probably something with your slime configuration. 14:37:31 weirdo: what's the value of slime-use-autodoc-mode? 14:37:53 stassats: 't 14:38:31 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229088073.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:39:08 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-21-234.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:39:56 hoy 14:42:30 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-140.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:42:37 -!- lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit ["ERC Version 5.1.4 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:42:49 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-181-244.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:45:28 -!- fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229085245.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:48:26 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 14:48:56 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 14:50:29 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:51:15 -!- fiveop__ [n=fiveop@g230018213.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:52:05 fiveop [n=fiveop@g230026232.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:52:27 -!- joswig [n=joswig@e177121045.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 14:53:11 demanotto [n=demanott@KD210230163150.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:55:12 lclark` [n=user@cpe-98-148-69-2.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:55:49 -!- lclark [n=user@cpe-98-148-69-2.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:56:15 -!- grummund [n=grummund@unaffiliated/grummund] has left #lisp 14:58:17 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 15:00:17 nikodemus: ahoy 15:00:50 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-181-244.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 15:06:10 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-118-37.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:06:12 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-39-152.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:08:28 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:09:41 artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has joined #lisp 15:10:04 Just like the :size parameter of make-hash-table has to be determinate at compile time, does the alist passed to assoc have to be a compile time list? 15:10:16 what? 15:10:20 :size can be variable 15:10:20 artagnon, no. 15:10:44 nikodemus: oh? Like (+ *var1* *var2*) ? 15:11:04 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:11:12 assoc is a completely "dynamic" function in the sense that its behavior depends on the current state of its arguments. 15:11:14 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:17 clhs m-h-t 15:11:17 MAKE-HASH-TABLE: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_has.htm 15:11:27 i don't think i have yet used :size 15:11:38 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 15:11:46 it's a function 15:11:50 I see. 15:11:52 Ok, got it 15:12:06 Must be some other error I mis-interpreted 15:12:13 Thanks 15:12:14 -!- artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has left #lisp 15:12:32 hm, is that an IRC client in Emacs?? 15:12:51 :size is useful when you copy the hashtable, and know how many items you will fill it. 15:12:54 *stassats* uses ERC 15:12:58 Adlai: ERC, IIRC (IRC) 15:12:58 Adlai: there are multiple. 15:13:00 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:13:03 *matimago* too 15:13:14 There is not a single one with decent proxy support, though. 15:13:19 minion, tell me about ERC 15:13:20 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``ERC''. 15:13:23 *fasta* waits for the outraged reaction :) 15:13:24 matimago: i can imagine the situations where you might use it, but it has never been a bottleneck i care about yet... 15:13:25 meh. 15:13:27 *Adlai* googles. 15:13:45 fasta: use normal internet connection! 15:14:02 Xach: well, with gigahertz multi-core processors and multi giga byte memories, it's hard to find a bottleneck... 15:14:05 At the point when you're wanting to use :size you're most of the way to needing a custom hash-table implementation anyway. 15:14:24 matimago: my bottleneck today is 1GB of memory in my workstation, but $50 will turn that into 4GB by friday... 15:14:35 Indeed. 15:15:10 matimago, whenever I need a bottleneck, I just make sure to use bignums and cons up a storm :D 15:15:22 * need to find a bottleneck 15:15:28 (if there is any) 15:15:49 nyef: if you know you're going to stuff 12842 items into the table, you might just as well give it as :size in the first place 15:16:04 not that that's a typical use case :) 15:16:05 -!- cracki [n=cracki@45-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:16:08 True enough, but that's about the only use-case. 15:16:09 there is also :size for defpackage 15:16:25 yeah 15:16:49 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-221-169.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 15:17:05 -!- Blkt [n=Blkt@dynamic-adsl-94-37-225-156.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:17:17 lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 15:17:29 Blkt [n=Blkt@dynamic-adsl-94-37-236-153.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 15:19:09 CLX uses :size for defpackage 15:19:30 CLX is 73 years old 15:19:46 go CLX 15:21:16 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 15:21:51 does someone else have trouble updating cl+ssl via clbuild? can't seem to be able to do it 15:22:18 -!- levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-242-198.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:25:08 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:27:12 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:27:18 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-23.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 15:29:11 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 15:33:30 lde` [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 15:34:04 -!- lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit ["ERC Version 5.1.4 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:34:25 -!- lde` [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 15:34:55 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-166.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:38:06 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:40:47 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-25-166.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:42:09 mdwyer [n=mdwyer@mdwyer-mac.tamu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:43:39 -!- Guest56242 is now known as lexa_ 15:43:42 lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 15:43:54 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@77.125.76.116] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:44:09 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest58938 15:45:16 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:45:20 http://kreelman.livejournal.com/7015.html 15:45:37 wlr [n=walt@65.96.92.150] has joined #lisp 15:45:40 random system related question... 15:46:04 if I have some systems asdf-installed, and clbuild grabs them as well when it gets some new library, should I delete the old copies? 15:46:39 Do clbuild and asdf-install even talk to each other? 15:46:54 I thought clbuild set up its own registry and whatnot? 15:47:12 they don't talk to each other afaik 15:47:23 they're separate. 15:47:24 nyef, exactly. several of the libraries in my clbuild registry are also in my asdf-install registry... 15:47:37 -!- demanotto [n=demanott@KD210230163150.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-17-83.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- asksol_ [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- hessiess [n=a@91.111.27.80] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- Qsource [i=dima@torch.blackened.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-dd39e1fab7327996] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-24-18-248-252.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- Bucciarati [n=buccia@212.45.155.126] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- keithr [n=user@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- Guest74049 [n=user@72.14.228.129] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- ironChicken [n=nrichard@mx.lurk.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- kefka [n=user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@195.49.138.42] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:37 i think clbuild mainly provides a systems-dir 15:47:53 should I delete the duplicates? 15:47:54 clbuild keeps its own directory of installed files as well, so I wouldn't worry. 15:48:03 demanotto [n=demanott@KD210230163150.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 hessiess [n=a@91.111.27.80] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-17-83.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 asksol_ [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 Qsource [i=dima@torch.blackened.com] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-dd39e1fab7327996] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 BrianRice [n=water@c-24-18-248-252.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 Bucciarati [n=buccia@212.45.155.126] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 keithr [n=user@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 Guest74049 [n=user@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 ironChicken [n=nrichard@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 kefka [n=user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 dostoyevsky [i=sck@195.49.138.42] has joined #lisp 15:48:55 So I should just have duplicate copies of libraries?? :-/ 15:49:50 if you link some custom asd's into your clbuild hierarchy, you're in charge of keeping them up to date, or out of date etc. 15:50:16 better keep non-clbuild things elsewhere, imo 15:50:18 Adlai: if you then additionally use your OS package system (portage, apt ...), you can have triplicates :) 15:50:32 *Adlai* knows enough to NOT use apt-get for Lisp... 15:50:55 *_3b* just tells clbuild about the extra packages instead of installing them separately 15:51:10 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 15:51:17 nikodemus, I am keeping the registries separate, mainly because cl-build uses vcs so it gets up-to-date libraries 15:51:52 so once clbuild has started tracking some package, should I delete it from the asdf-install dir, b/c it won't be updated? 15:52:13 i would do that if i used asdf-install :) 15:52:20 what is the current opinion about the gentoo portage lisp overlay? 15:52:24 <_3b> i'd delete extra copies just so you can be sure which you are using 15:52:35 ok, thanks everybody. 15:52:51 *ZabaQ* wishes he was still using gentoo - just for that overlay 15:53:48 serichsen: I think fe[nl]ix is involved with the gentoo packages; if any of them are going to be okay, that one is likely. 15:55:05 plage [n=user@58.186.146.148] has joined #lisp 15:55:11 Good evening 15:55:29 greetings 15:56:40 Is asdf-install slowly being deprecated? 15:57:00 by whom? 15:57:05 there are projects to replace it, but I doubt it's going anywhere soon. 15:57:16 isn't fare working on a system called xcvb? 15:57:30 The fact there are projects to replace it seems to suggest a general desire to move on.. 15:58:24 clbuild can replace asdf-install, but asdf is another thing 15:59:07 and i ask again, anyone else having trouble updating cl+ssl via clbuild? 15:59:48 it worked for me yesterday. i guess it's possible their rcs has become borked. 16:00:13 <_3b> guaqua: seems to work here 16:00:14 guaqua, it worked fine for me just now... 16:00:32 (the new libraries that I just deleted from asdf-install were pulled in by clbuild as dependencies for cl+ssl) 16:00:58 interesting. my cvs might be broken then... 16:01:10 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 16:03:14 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:07:41 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:10:12 -!- Guest58938 is now known as lexa_ 16:10:30 guaqua: what is the error? 16:10:30 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:10:41 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest99655 16:10:46 "error: update was interrupted" 16:11:23 can you update it manually? 16:11:46 -!- fasta [n=a@217.109.160.5] has left #lisp 16:11:50 yes 16:12:21 morning 16:12:32 and after that manual update it crashes like it did before 16:12:48 -!- Adlai is now known as adlai2 16:13:06 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:13:12 perhaps disk full? 16:13:20 in all fairness, i don' think any of the proposed asdf-install replacements have succeeded so far: i'm not aware of any other architectures which do what it does and which would take care of the issues with it without introducing worse ones 16:13:44 serichsen: it works manually. and the disk is not full 16:13:48 but maybe i just haven't been reading the right press 16:15:27 given that there are not so many regularly releasable lisp libraries, clbuild is quite successful 16:15:41 elderK [n=elderK@222-152-95-210.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 16:15:46 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-40-3.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:15:50 what about mudballs? has that shown any promise? 16:16:29 <_8david> guaqua: "clbuild trash $foo; clbuild install $foo" <-- might help 16:16:39 already did that 16:16:42 -!- Guest99655 is now known as lexa_ 16:17:14 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest10599 16:17:20 and for some reason it worked this time... 16:17:26 is there a .clbuild-resume in the directory? 16:18:09 there is 16:18:22 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@pool-72-72-99-62.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:19:21 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-95-210.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 16:20:27 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:20:57 I guess this is solved 16:21:18 it isn't. it still crashes when i try to update... 16:21:39 nikodemus: well, clbuild works quite well, though it's far from perfect (but gives me less problems than I had with asdf-install) 16:22:08 p_l: but it doesn't try to do what asdf-install was supposed to 16:22:40 that is, clbuild is all about being up to date with the upstream -- which is good 16:22:54 only trash && install works. in every other way checking out cl+ssl fails 16:22:55 whereas asdf-install is more about released versions 16:23:07 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:23:36 i once saw some code that enabled mixins through make-instance keyword arguments 16:23:44 anyone knows where it is? i can't find it :| 16:24:15 nikodemus: well, there was some talk about plugging that hole, but we would need also a nice method for releasing stuff. I recalls someone's release.sh? 16:24:17 enabled mixins? 16:24:27 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 16:24:44 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:26:05 stassats: like you had (make-instance :passable t) and it... yeah, it created a class on the fly 16:26:10 i figured that out myself :) 16:26:35 i'm all for someone plugging the whole 16:27:32 we just need to find that someone 16:27:53 oudeis [n=oudeis@93-172-197-237.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:28:49 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:29:04 <_8david> guaqua: Add "set -x" somewhere early in the clbuild script and past the output for the second "clbuild update $foo" attempt. 16:29:49 i'll have to debug it more later 16:29:56 guaqua: or do sh -x clbuild 16:29:59 -!- davazp [n=user@79.153.148.56] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:30:35 -!- adlai2 [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:31:01 *Adlai* likes ERC! Thanks for the pointer. :) 16:32:06 -!- vng [n=demen@222.253.102.207] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:33:16 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:27 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has quit [] 16:33:58 vng [n=demen@222.253.102.207] has joined #lisp 16:34:59 -!- hessiess [n=a@91.111.27.80] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:35:18 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-189-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:36:40 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 16:36:53 I have a question regarding places 16:37:02 when you bind a place in a let to a variable 16:37:05 and setf that variable 16:37:13 do you set the var or the place in the var? 16:38:01 if so, is there a way to setf the place instead of having to repeat the 3-star programming expression to access the place 16:39:18 yvdriess, setf always binds to the place. However, because you're in a let, the place is newly created. 16:40:56 (let ((var (access (some (deeply (nested (ugly (place x)))))))) (setf var new)) 16:41:26 is there a way to keep this style? or how is this usually solved 16:41:52 clhs symbol-macrolet 16:41:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_symbol.htm 16:42:12 oh dear 16:42:13 okay 16:42:23 what's wrong? 16:42:56 doesn't seem very right to use a syntactic abstraction for that 16:43:08 but that's exactly what you asked for 16:43:27 lucydogen [n=Y@83.240.197.202] has joined #lisp 16:43:37 true, I was just hoping for a better way I guess :) 16:43:39 dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 16:43:39 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Dead socket] 16:43:47 like (setf (the-place-of var) new) 16:43:58 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:40 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:44:52 yvdriess: you could defsetf yourself a shorter way of writing the place 16:45:16 ahah! defsetf :) 16:45:53 girzel [n=user@206.124.137.75] has joined #lisp 16:45:53 that's a syntactic abstraction! 16:45:53 nicer abstraction, thanks :) 16:46:13 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:46:17 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-24-18-248-252.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:46:18 *stassats* still doesn't get why yvdriess like defsetf, but not symbol-macrolet 16:46:22 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 16:46:37 defsetf, defun (setf ...), define-setf-expander, etc. 16:46:52 yvdriess, symbol-macrolet is **waaay** easier to use than defsetf & co. 16:46:53 use the most specific general abstraction 16:46:56 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-24-18-248-252.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:08 i was going to say that you coudl write a new macro setf-let, that calles get-setf-expansion 16:47:10 The fun (flet (((setf ...) ...)) ...) 16:47:32 "most specific" and "general" don't combine for me 16:47:38 but i don't see how that would be much better than just using symbol-macrolet 16:48:05 abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:48:24 smoofra, stassats: imo it's the same reason you inline functions instead of making them a macro 16:48:53 carbocalm [n=user@75-119-234-173.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:49:03 and with a set of defsetf I can do away with the 3-star programming 16:49:15 3-star programming? 16:49:18 yvdriess: symbol-macrolet is pretty much made to pretend variables are places or other arbitrary forms. 16:49:21 and defsetf isn't local 16:49:38 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:50:38 commmmodo [n=commmmod@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:50:50 stassats: that's fine, I want to call (foo x) everywhere in my code instead of (bar (baz x)) macro definitions 16:51:06 http://c2.com/cgi-bin/wiki?ThreeStarProgramming 16:51:35 -!- Reav___ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:44 yvdriess: then that's not what you originally asked 16:52:18 true, symbol macro answers that question as intended 16:52:40 but given that abstraction and defsetf, I prefer defsetf because it is more specific for my purpose 16:53:25 that's why I prefer on to the other :) 16:53:30 -!- lucydogen [n=Y@83.240.197.202] has left #lisp 16:54:17 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:54:24 I'm an academic, it's my job to be this pedantic 16:55:35 yvdriess: are you sue you need defsetf and not just defmacro? 16:55:43 setf will expand macros you know 16:55:48 yes 16:55:51 well, defsetf and symbol-macrolet solve different problems, so you can't prefer one to another 16:56:02 SBCL's test suite doesn't have many GC-specific tests does it? Should I conclude that target-2 is good enough a test? 16:56:03 say you have 3 nested structs 16:56:20 and you constantly seem to set a s lot in the innermost struct 16:56:37 isn't it generally a good idea to define a top level setf for that slot 16:57:05 sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 16:57:08 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:57:09 -!- sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:57:34 if this is a slot in a struct, you can use a function then 16:58:02 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["restarting erc"] 16:58:34 isn't defsetf just the way to do this? 16:58:43 ok it's not technically a function, but you get the idea 16:58:45 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:59:07 bobf_ [n=bob@host86-146-215-63.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:59:51 jlpeters [n=james@c-24-19-32-179.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:54 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Client Quit] 17:01:07 -!- Elench is now known as JHVH 17:01:15 luis: there are some, but not a huge amount 17:01:26 yvdriess: it's not "just the way", you can use macros, defsetf, define-setf-expander, function or method 17:01:27 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 17:01:28 mostly about gc interacting with threads and/or signals 17:01:38 depends on particular case 17:01:52 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Client Quit] 17:02:02 in terms of "gc works" make-target.sh is indeed a good test, and self-build is even better 17:02:25 nikodemus: yes. Do you think something like the bohem-gc bench using varied datastructures (instead of just structs) would be a good test? 17:02:52 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:54 i can't remember what boehm-gc bench does 17:03:13 nikodemus: I was thinking it'd be nice to have such a test so it could be run with the extra gencgc checks enabled. 17:03:30 ah 17:05:18 I have developped a monte carlo model for my degree thesis, now I have difficulty sending a CDrom for the examiner to check my thesis 17:05:20 doesn't sound like a bad idea at all 17:05:20 nikodemus: it generates a bunch of trees of various sizes. 17:05:21 any suggestions? 17:06:25 envelope + postage stamp? 17:06:32 what's the difficulty? 17:06:37 be sure to enclose it in a firm case to avoid scratches 17:06:38 -!- _8david [n=user@77-22-106-191-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:06:48 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-25-166.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 17:06:56 leo2007: will #lisp be a coauthor of your thesis? 17:07:04 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 17:07:34 nikodemus: and keeps pointers to some of them in long-lived objects. 17:08:37 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:08:50 and there might be something more to it that I've missed 17:14:40 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:16:52 i want to make small function that makes use of 'mapping function' any ideas where can i use them? 17:16:54 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@93-172-197-237.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:17:20 the function should do something of practical value 17:17:53 astalla [n=astalla@93-36-226-46.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:17:57 Bigshot_: makes use of what? 17:18:08 mapcar, mapc, maplist etc 17:18:23 Bigshot_: is this homework? 17:18:49 apparently yes but i am not asking anything just any ideas 17:19:42 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 17:19:57 -!- jlpeters [n=james@c-24-19-32-179.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:20:19 jlpeters [n=james@c-24-19-32-179.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:29 Bigshot_: well, with mapcar for instance you're usually applying a simple transformation to each element of a list. 17:20:52 one use could be to get all the odd numbers from the list but what else 17:21:09 Bigshot_: you might be extracting some data from each object, etc. 17:21:36 some morphism, i'll never remember which 17:21:46 rot13 encoding/decoding, maybe? 17:21:49 Bigshot_: Almost anything that involves iterating over a bunch of objects. Pick an algorithm. Any algorithm. 17:22:04 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [Client Quit] 17:22:34 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:23:15 stassats: ;) 17:23:22 will be acknowledged 17:23:50 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-66-250.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:24:11 lucydogen [n=Y@83.240.197.202] has joined #lisp 17:24:40 nikodemus: but those people knows nothing about lisp. I need to give them a program, where they can click and type in a few expressions or function and they can see the results 17:25:20 -!- lucydogen [n=Y@83.240.197.202] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:25:51 minion: executeables? 17:25:53 leo2007: Um, isn't that what vivas are for? To make YOU do that...they just give you the cdrom you submitted, and say, "show us." 17:25:55 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``executeables''. 17:26:24 minion: executables? 17:26:28 executables: creating executables: Newcomers to Lisp often ask how to "create an executable" from their Lisp program. http://www.cliki.net/creating%20executables 17:28:52 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 17:30:27 danlei [n=user@pD9E2ED28.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:18 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:26 -!- girzel [n=user@206.124.137.75] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:32:32 girzel [n=user@206.124.137.75] has joined #lisp 17:32:53 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:33:13 deafmacro [n=user@59.92.165.241] has joined #lisp 17:33:45 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-166.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:34:30 ZabaQ: there's no viva on this one, it is more like report basically 17:35:01 but they need to know that I am not talking rubbish, so I want to attach the CD 17:35:09 schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 17:35:58 lispm [n=joswig@e177121045.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:36:27 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 17:37:20 leo2007: you can usually save a core. what implementation do you have? 17:37:31 sbcl 17:37:52 ok, look in the manual for save-lisp-and-die 17:38:28 serichsen: how to lauch it? the default sbcl command line is too difficult to use 17:38:34 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Saving-a-Core-Image.html#Saving-a-Core-Image 17:38:37 leo2007: cl-launch did a very nice job of creating a working core from a sbcl program. 17:38:38 for typing 17:38:49 leo2007: it's very self-explanatory 17:39:02 leo2007: you give save-lisp-and-die a top-level function to execute when the core is started 17:39:09 leo2007: http://www.cliki.net/cl-launch 17:39:45 does it work on os x or windows 17:39:54 -!- demanotto [n=demanott@KD210230163150.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:40:03 os x, yes (assuming you save the core on os x) 17:40:04 leo2007: I've no idea... 17:40:14 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 17:40:27 leo2007: that top-level function usually should loop indefinitely, until the user activates some exit 17:40:45 windows, yes-hopefully (assuming you save the core on windows and you're not unlucky) 17:40:50 leo2007: you need to save the core from an image running on the target architecture 17:41:01 serichsen: ok, I'll look into it 17:41:21 windows support is a bit so-so, but some people are (incredibly enough) running production code with win32 sbcl... 17:41:27 thank you for all the suggestions, I will investigate those options 17:43:08 piso_ [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:23 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:48 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181145219.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:48:49 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:49:10 milanj [n=milan@93.86.114.155] has joined #lisp 17:55:58 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:00 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:04 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-181-244.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:58:37 leo2007: ECL is probably one of the few lisps that have something other than "save-lisp-and-die" for executables 17:59:57 p_l: is e for embedded? 18:00:09 Embeddable 18:01:06 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ed04382c04f68996] has joined #lisp 18:02:36 n00b question... what does a core mean in the context of Lisps? (I'm pretty sure it's not referring to my Inter Core Duo...) 18:03:30 a memory image 18:03:52 -!- Guest10599 is now known as lexa_ 18:03:52 -!- asksol_ [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:04:22 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest8279 18:05:03 so "core" and "lisp image" mean the same thing? 18:05:06 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:05:52 yes 18:05:58 also "world" 18:06:50 -!- Guest8279 is now known as lexa_ 18:07:20 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest31482 18:07:30 Adlai: traditionally "core" refers to memory, in this case "dumped core" is file with contents of memory image 18:08:02 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 18:10:02 Adlai: 'Image' is usually used to refer to a running lisp. 'Core' is a dump of an image that can be reloaded. 'World' is both, though i've also used it to refer to the collection of source files from which i might run an image or build a core. 18:10:24 ok. thanks :) 18:10:45 someone else might use those terms slightly differently, as they are really interchangable :) 18:10:45 I'd say an image is usually the thing on disk 18:11:02 it is an image of the live thing 18:11:25 see ^^ :) 18:12:04 hm 18:12:24 -!- ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:12:28 I like to see myself as THE authority on all things; and I say image is the live thing. 18:14:00 ;-) 18:14:38 "Interlisp-D sysouts are byte-coded image files" 18:14:38 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-181-244.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 18:14:58 Adlai: so, use any of those words in the correct context and a lisper will get what you're saying. Trying to pin down a definition is going to be like asking how to pronounce 'CLOS' or 'CMUCL' :) 18:15:12 lispm: we can add 'sysout' to the list now? :) 18:15:40 heh 18:16:13 Adlai: quite "universal" (i.e. used also outside Lisp) is that "image" is an object containing executable code (either on file or in memory) plus all necessary linkages/definitions etc. 18:16:41 " So now we start a Lisp world. Genera comes up." 18:16:43 I say "kloss" and "seemuckl" 18:17:33 serichsen: you are from the east coast right? 18:17:35 serichsen: semoocle! 18:17:47 drewc: germany ;) 18:17:54 drewc: I say "klos" and "CMUCL". I love the fact that polish uses phonetic writing :D 18:18:00 I always say out c-m-u-c-l. 18:18:09 And CLOS is "klos". 18:18:11 Hmmm, I always think C-L-O-S and C-M-U-C-L. Never tried to pronounce them as acronyms. 18:18:22 tmh: west coast? 18:18:22 *luis* says klosh 18:18:26 ok, so how do you pronounce CDR? 18:18:35 drewc: Nope, the Middle West. 18:18:38 serichsen: CDR? 18:18:47 serichsen, I pronounce it like it rhymes with "udder" 18:18:50 eventually see-DR 18:18:53 *stassats* klos and kmookl' 18:18:55 CDR is easy, but CDADDADDR ? 18:19:01 well I don't really pronounce it... I don't often dictate lisp code :) 18:19:04 lispm: lol 18:19:08 tmh: damn ... i know nothing of pronounciation outside north america it seems :) 18:19:09 lispm: stuttering fathers? 18:19:31 drewc: That is North America -> Missouri 18:19:34 clos = "kloss", cmucl = "smukle" 18:19:40 hehe 18:19:42 doesn't use sussman has this in some video? 18:20:12 i say see-los, see-eem-you-see-ell, and cudder. 18:20:31 unless i'm in boston... 18:20:46 drewc, ? 18:20:47 Is the Middle West distinct from the Midwest? 18:20:51 clos is easy enough to pronounce klos, cmucl i just spell :) 18:21:03 in which case i try to use the local dialect, as they _did_ probably invent half the terms there :) 18:21:24 tmh: i read 'middle east' and got confused from there :) 18:21:25 yeah, but what would the "boston dialect" be? 18:21:50 drewc: in hungarian CLOS is "tzlosh" :D 18:22:05 fe[nl]ix: i think i'm going to use that from now on :) 18:22:20 in France CLOS is a wine 18:22:23 oh my god. someone should try to unite the lisp pronounciations. perhaps we could make an ANSI Common Common Lisp Pronounciation standard 18:22:25 drewc: Ah, *chuckle* 18:22:25 obviously the the c in cmucl should be silent, something like "muckle" 18:22:25 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:22:35 kind of funny to see bootles of CLOS in the supermarket 18:22:40 bottles 18:22:56 hahaha 18:23:09 lispm: I think I saw a photograph of that somewhere 18:23:11 probably drinking CLOS would help, too 18:23:28 i've seen CLOS wine in a german supermarket 18:23:31 it should be the official ECLM drink ;) 18:23:41 good idea 18:23:45 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:23:49 send email to Edi 18:23:58 *Adlai* experienced severe emacs-fail 18:24:00 Adlai: the 'boston/cambridge dialect' otherwise know as 'the MIT drawl'.. Kloss, smuclke.. i even heard SBCL as 'sbuckle' 18:24:08 haha 18:24:17 lol 18:24:22 haha 18:24:28 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clos_Fourtet 18:24:33 Château Clos Fourtet :D 18:24:35 -!- Guest31482 is now known as lexa_ 18:24:55 from Bordeaux 18:24:57 in germany I heard somebody say zehmuckel 18:24:58 that is hilarious...sbuckle :) 18:25:05 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest92475 18:25:14 dalton3 [n=user7994@187.34.47.48] has joined #lisp 18:25:22 haha, a CLOS chateau in Bordeaux 18:25:27 i did not understand what he was talking about 18:25:30 -!- dalton3 [n=user7994@187.34.47.48] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:25:35 all we need is a steel factory next to it :) 18:25:42 lispm: german #\z? 18:25:42 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-216.icpnet.pl] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:25:51 yes 18:25:55 a Clos network is a kind of multistage switching network, first formalized by Charles Clos in 1953 18:26:07 Charles Clos! 18:26:08 lispm: so "tsehmoockle" (with a short oo) 18:26:55 A bit less politically correct: "shuckle"? 18:26:58 *shmuckle 18:26:59 dalton3 [n=user7994@187.34.47.48] has joined #lisp 18:27:21 -!- dalton3 is now known as dalton 18:27:49 Adlai: Hmm, I've been thinking of starting a podcast, "The Culturally Insensitive Minute with TMH", you could be my first guest. :-) 18:28:37 I'm be honored! :D 18:28:39 I guess that you just shouldn't expect all people to pronounce _any_ acronym of more than three letters as three separate letters 18:29:13 my favorite acronym is WWW, which as the late and great Douglas Adams pointed out, 18:29:26 takes three times as long to say the acronym as it does the full words. 18:29:38 Adlai: Only in english 18:29:50 Adlai: in german it's short :) 18:29:53 true, it would be shorter as "ve-ve-ve" 18:29:54 in finnish the w's are pronounced as v's :) 18:29:55 yeah 18:29:55 haha 18:30:16 "I'm gonna go surf the V, brb..." 18:30:17 lol 18:30:25 Adlai: VuVuVu ;-) 18:30:30 dub-dub-dub 18:30:33 question on reddit: complexity of CL vs. Perl vs. C++? Any informed opinion? 18:30:54 CL << Perl < C++ 18:30:54 complexity of syntax, standard, ... 18:31:04 the sum of all 18:31:26 12 18:31:34 heh 18:31:36 is Perl really more complex than CL? 18:32:22 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-166.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:32:38 CL might have mind-boggling abstractions, but it's still legible. 18:32:41 *_3b* is more interested in 'useful' than 'complex' :) 18:33:24 lispm: Perl wins on parse complexity alone! ;-) 18:33:31 lispm: sorry, that was just a spontaneous reaction. I guess I need to meditate on the meaning of "complex" 18:33:48 -!- Guest92475 is now known as lexa_ 18:34:03 Several years ago I browsed through the source to perl. It's strewn through with dire Lord of the Rings quotations. 18:34:18 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest56106 18:34:20 <_3b> like macros vs templates i'd pick templates for more complex, conditions vs exceptions i'd pick conditions, but in both cases, i'd pick CL for 'more useful' 18:34:21 it was, anyway. i haven't looked in a while. 18:35:04 _3b, true CL's condition system (and CLOS) are the most complex concepts I've encountered in programming... 18:35:23 the draft C++ standard is at 1200 pages now and includes lots of things 18:36:04 I would guess that CL is 'less' complex since it has a smaller core and things like error handling reuse a lot of other stuff 18:37:09 I'd say cl is less complex because it has less of "accidental" complexity and even though it is big, it is more uniform in its concepts 18:37:15 lispm, exceptions to conditions are like a plastic picnic spork to a butcher knife 18:37:55 whereas the other languages seem patched together, lisp just relied on itself (macros and what not) to evolve 18:37:58 *_3b* wouldn't want to eat a picnic with a butcher knife 18:38:13 *Adlai* wouldn't want to cut a steak with a spork. 18:38:15 a cup of water compared to a fire extinguisher 18:38:53 Adlai: I think it's rather like hedge shears compared to a scalpel 18:38:58 *_3b* wouldn't want to drink from a fire extinguisher either :p 18:39:09 i think it's mostly about bad metaphors 18:39:18 heh, yeah 18:39:28 <_3b> that's it, exceptions are a bad metaphor :) 18:39:39 _3b: compared to? ;o) 18:39:44 <_3b> umm, a good one? 18:40:14 serichsen: compared to conditions 18:40:51 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-221-169.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 18:40:52 exception handling is only ten pages in the C++ standard 18:40:57 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:41:15 templates is 120 pages 18:41:45 imagine Lisp had 120 pages for the macro mechanism in the standard 18:42:19 <_3b> lispm: arguably, it does, since the entire spec applies :) 18:42:41 that's only macros in use, not the mechanism 18:42:57 <_3b> no, i mean the mechanism for macros is the entire language 18:43:07 hm, to quote one of the authors of some CL book (not sure which), the Lisp spec is just the core and the rest is all libraries... 18:43:11 I would say that 18:43:11 <_3b> as oppsed to c+_+ which adds a separate language instead of reusing the base 18:43:11 how many pages does the CL standard have in total? 18:43:19 compare that to a listing of all C++ or Perl libraries! 18:43:21 luis: ping 18:43:26 fe[nl]ix: pong 18:43:45 serichsen, over one thousand 18:44:21 luis: how about merging fsbv into cffi proper ? 18:46:46 -!- vng [n=demen@222.253.102.207] has left #lisp 18:46:48 my Draft ANSI CL PDF has 1360 pages 18:47:56 fe[nl]ix: maybe, but doing that with our own assembler would be much more fun! :) 18:48:13 -!- Guest56106 is now known as lexa_ 18:48:43 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest59793 18:48:44 Excellent, now we compare languages by number of pages in the standard. Is more or less better? 18:48:56 tmh, better than LOC... 18:49:07 What if there is no standard? 18:49:15 LOC 18:49:16 luis: sure. we'd only need someone to actually write the code(with a lot of time available too) 18:49:35 -!- piso_ [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:49:46 well, it boils down to that we need some sort of measurement for "complexity" 18:49:59 people used to joke that RxRS was small than the index of ANSI CL 18:50:08 which is no longer true for R6RS 18:50:42 by the way, is there any activity at cltl3? 18:51:00 serichsen: not at the moment 18:51:19 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 18:51:46 that's too bad IMO... I think that some incorporation of "modern" stuff into the standard would be very beneficial... 18:52:01 let's remove some stuff, too 18:52:36 What is stopping you from making the revision yourself? 18:52:37 lispm: such as ? 18:52:42 lispm: what do you have in mind? 18:53:09 hbock [n=user@198.7.232.249] has joined #lisp 18:53:10 lispm: *-IF-NOT functions ? 18:53:31 How hard is it to (common-lisp:defpackage #:cltl3) <- Note the explicit absence of (:use #:common-lisp) 18:53:31 -!- hbock [n=user@198.7.232.249] has quit [Client Quit] 18:53:35 structures 18:53:50 remove anything mentioning structures 18:53:58 streams are classes, conditions are classes 18:54:55 Build your language on top of Common Lisp. When it reaches sufficient maturity, start removing common lisp from behind the scenes. 18:55:06 in that direction would be to make all functions methods 18:55:10 lispm: Go. Do. It. 18:55:17 lispm: good idea, but it requires a lot of coding in order to bring classes(with sealing, etc...) on par with structures wrt. efficiency 18:55:42 We would all like a Metaobject Lisp, but if it was easy, it would be done. 18:56:03 lispm: You take structures out over my dead body! 18:56:28 version a: remove DEFSTRUCT and do (defclass ... :meta-class structure-class) 18:56:35 something like that 18:56:37 lispm: Here is your first line of code, for free -> (common-lisp:defpackage #:metaobject-lisp), run with it. 18:56:44 haha 18:56:46 ;-) 18:56:50 I'm not joking 18:56:56 think like steve jobs 18:57:04 This conversation gets old. Talk is cheap. 18:57:22 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:59 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@wirenat-eld.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:58:07 tmh: yep, that's why we do it 18:58:49 i think it would be interesting to combine MOP with a continuation-based lisp-2 (not lisp-n) 19:00:03 Don't get me wrong, I have aspirations of doing it myself. I even started a repository and have the skeleton of a design document. But I also have real projects to get done and quite honestly, Common Lisp is "Good Enough"(c). 19:00:33 tmh: yeah, CL is so good that everyone thinks like that 19:00:59 I have started that, I'm in the good enough department myself 19:01:29 I think it should be a community effort though... even though organizing Lispers is like herding cats. 19:02:00 tmh: Umm... Per the specification of defpackage, said first line may well :use :common-lisp, along with a pile of other packages as well. Always use an explicit :use clause. 19:02:23 nyef: Ah, thanks. 19:02:36 (Feel free to fix that in your versions, though.) 19:02:40 or none, like in SBCL 19:02:53 what about (defpackage #:cltl3 (:use)) ? 19:03:17 fe[nl]ix: you'll have to pry *-IF-NOT from my cold dead hands! :) 19:03:20 JosefAssad [n=josef@1385158256.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:03:21 Adlai: I don't think it will be a community effort until someone announces, "Hey, I have a draft version of Metaobject Lisp with a corresponding design document. Use, abuse and send me comments." 19:03:22 I would propose to use CLOS more in the language, though that could be controversial 19:03:42 What happened to Arc, anyway? 19:03:43 some people seem to prefer to not use CLOS 19:03:50 moin 19:04:01 ZabaQ, the Arc community is very small, but persistant 19:04:02 arc had a new version lately 19:04:19 lispm: I agree... MORE CLOS! 19:04:23 if I am going to try out lisp, what is the recommended interpreter? aptitude install clisp ? 19:04:29 drewc: really? 19:04:32 minion: chant 19:04:33 drewc: Metaobject top-to-bottom. 19:04:33 MORE CLOS 19:04:35 lispm: I completely agree. just that it would need a very advanced CLOS implementation 19:04:38 -!- Guest59793 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 19:04:39 there's not much organization, though... basically each Arc hacker writes their own hacks and they all try to overcome the conflicts. 19:04:41 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:04:46 The bots agree! 19:04:51 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:54 -!- bobf_ [n=bob@host86-146-215-63.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:04:56 fe[nl]ix, yes, true 19:05:07 <_3b> JosefAssad: sbcl and ccl are popular, though they usually compile not interpret 19:05:12 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:05:17 JosefAssad: that's a possibility, though cl-build is generally recommended for managing common lisp packages 19:05:22 JosefAssad: clisp is supposed to be the most newbie-friendly. 19:05:23 lispm: indeed. I'm working on a meta-reader-protocol myself, i think the condition system should be specified to use CLOS, things like :metaclass structured-class etc. 19:05:37 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 19:05:42 JosefAssad: you'd probably prefer a compiler, there are not many pure interpreters out there. 19:05:43 another thought: would it be possible to simplify the use of CLOS? 19:05:53 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@84.131.217.125] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:05:55 _3b: ah, my terminology is at fault. OK, I'll read up on those two and choose one 19:05:57 lispm: simplify the use? how so? 19:06:00 lispm: how ? 19:06:12 *drewc* finds CLOS very simple to use. 19:06:14 ZabaQ: newbie --> me. 19:06:14 ok, thanks folks 19:06:19 lispm, do you mean simplify the implementation? 19:06:38 like shorter accessors, chained accessors, multiple value slots, simpler defclass with more defaults? 19:06:42 ZabaQ: what makes clisp so newbie-friendly? this is the first time i've heard anyone make that assertion, 19:06:43 <_3b> JosefAssad: common mistake, so we try to correct it early :) even the compiled CLs are generally interactive though, particularly with a well integradted editor (like emacs with slime) 19:06:44 . 19:06:59 drewc: with proper compiler-macros, there's no need for *-IF-NOT functions and :TEST-NOT args 19:07:06 -!- deafmacro [n=user@59.92.165.241] has left #lisp 19:07:27 in CLOS we have: (bordered-window-border-width window) 19:07:33 lispm: multiple-value-slots...? Can't you get the same effect with define-setf-expander? 19:07:35 drewc: Mostly the embedded documentation support, and nicer error messages. 19:07:37 fe[nl]ix: I think it's also just a matter of having orthogonality 19:07:41 fe[nl]ix: i care not about your compiler .. REMOVE-IF-NOT is much clearer to me than REMOVE-IF (complement #'test) etc. 19:07:56 what about (remove-if ~#'test) 19:07:58 lispm: i don't think i would have the bordered-window- prefix. 19:08:08 Adlai: no, that's fucking horrid! 19:08:11 drewc: At least that was my impression when I was a newbie. 19:08:24 Xach: yes, how would you write it? without prefix? 19:08:25 jyujin [n=mdeining@82.113.106.164] has joined #lisp 19:08:31 lispm: I would 19:08:45 lispm: i think i would use a gf name like border-width 19:08:47 (border-width window) 19:08:58 *Adlai* cringes 19:09:02 Adlai: At the same time as it being rather unpleasant to some people's eyes, it should be simple enough to add to your own system as a reader-macro. 19:09:04 why not WIDTH? 19:09:05 <_3b> how about a clean core without -if-not and a standard convenience library that adds it back? 19:09:06 those class-name prefixes are indeed a plague upon the Weblocks export list 19:09:14 drewc: What have you got against clisp? Perfectly usable implementation. 19:09:22 lispm: that would be (width window-border) 19:09:23 lispm: width would be the width of the window. 19:09:27 right 19:09:42 ZabaQ: Perfectly usable? I beg to differ. The arglists on standard functions alone are a deal-breaker. 19:09:45 get the border object and take its width ;-) 19:09:56 _3b: ah, interactive will do just fine. I am not an interpreted language partisan :) 19:10:06 drewc: a compiler macro can easily recognize the special case of (remove-if (complement #'foo) ...) and optimize it 19:10:10 ZabaQ: nothing against it, just don't see it as being the most newbie friendly, given the simple fact that 80% of people here are using SBCL, it might be a good idea for a newbie to use what other people use. Also, threads. 19:10:12 (width (border window)) 19:10:15 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:10:27 ZabaQ: i can agree with that. at least i approached clisp more like i would approach perl.. like a scripting language. besides, both sbcl and cmucl would crash more or less arbitrary doing the simplest of backend io stuff, making me depressed. :) 19:10:34 Xach: I would propose that the standard has a convention for naming accessors and composing them 19:10:44 fe[nl]ix: yes, it could... also FIRST and CAR don't both have to be there... 19:10:57 ZabaQ: just as long as you don't go about refusing to make ANSI-compatibility changes in libs shared with the community because "but it works on SBCL" 19:11:01 drewc: Yes, I guess. However, my experience as a newbie with SBCL was quite negative. 19:11:03 in KEE I could write something like window.border.width 19:11:04 fe[nl]ix: i don't care about complier effeciency .. i like REMOVE-IF-NOT :) 19:11:10 clisp has the plus of readline magic if you are not using slime etc. I guess that could count as friendly 19:11:20 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:11:32 lispm: i find that quite slot-obsessed. i try as much as i can to think about sensible generic function names for a protocol, and then use classes to implement it. 19:11:33 or window.border-width 19:11:35 ZabaQ: that does not mirror the experiences of the 5 or so newbies we turn on to SBCL weekly around here ;) 19:11:48 drewc: Well, it was a long time ago... 19:11:51 Xach: that makes a lot of sense 19:11:52 lispm: I think that it's an education thing to think of accessors as methods of generic functions 19:11:53 *S11001001* hates that. 19:11:55 lispm: i agree with Xach here. 19:12:02 drewc: Unicode support was going in.. 19:12:14 ZabaQ: what do you use now? 19:12:18 lispm: i could use more practice and experience to refine what i think about it, though 19:12:34 drewc: Well, I'm windows - bound now, so I'm using CCL and CLISP. 19:12:46 lispm: that's just postfix notation, lisp uses prefix notation, so (width (border (window))) is window.border.width 19:12:55 ZabaQ: that's fair, windows is a whole other beast. 19:13:02 serichsen: no, it's not 19:13:10 these days sbcl seems to rock & roll, but i think it's unfortunate not more of the stuff out there is included with it. that if anything would make it a lot easier for newbies. 19:13:19 there is unfortunately a convention to use classname-accessor and classname and accessor could be class-name and slot-accessor, which gives class-name-slot-accessor 19:13:32 Jabberwockey [n=jens@82.113.121.155] has joined #lisp 19:13:33 composing is done with - 19:13:33 drewc: what? 19:13:49 I would either follow Xach, or use another character 19:13:58 serichsen: the dot notation for accessing slots and generic function invocation are _very_ different things. 19:13:59 class-name.slot-accessor 19:14:06 hypno: Which things do you think should be included in a "sbcl distro" ? 19:14:07 lispm: i like that actually, and use it myself 19:14:09 What are we talking about? 19:14:33 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:14:36 but, usually only internally.. i export a proper GF based protocol. 19:14:47 drewc: yes, of course. dot notation implies that methods are "inside" an object 19:15:18 protocol-name.accessor-name 19:15:33 drewc: but that is also an inferior way to handle methods, imho 19:15:41 lispm: nah .. protocol-name:accessor-name 19:15:51 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 19:15:58 schmx: a shitload of things. since sbcl more or less is /the/ implementation, why not include webservers and whatever else that is generally needed anyway? that way functionality can "standardize" and newbies will essentially get a "batteries" included lisp, without having to fuck around with arbitray depencies, etc. 19:16:07 serichsen: which.. single dispatch? 19:16:19 hypno: I think it sounds like a very good idea. 19:16:22 drewc: yes, that is one implication of that 19:16:23 drewc: then we are at the Xach variant, which, again, makes sense to me 19:16:40 hypno: SBCL is not _the_ implementaiton at all. 19:17:08 I use the xach variant as much as possible. 19:17:11 drewc: I encountered someone who didn't want to define a new method for arrays in ruby today, he said that he didn't want to modify the built-in class 19:17:13 Well, there's CMUCL and CLISP aside from that. 19:17:18 the diversity of implementations is quite interesting, especially if you read the lispworks mailing list and the clozure cl mailing list 19:17:21 I don't know if anything else is really as popular. 19:17:39 i haven't really kept up with others, but those alone show very distinct user communities, and distinct from sbcl too 19:17:48 serichsen: and? makes sense to me... monkey-patching in ruby is a bad idea IMO. 19:17:49 Xach: are they different to each other or to the other mailing lists? 19:17:49 And out of those, SBCL probably runs on the most platforms/has the most features and libraries, etc. 19:17:54 drewc: you do not think sbcl is what is mainly used, and what newbies in general are recommended to use? 19:17:58 -!- girzel [n=user@206.124.137.75] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:18:12 A lot of newbies go for CLISP. 19:18:22 lispm: the user groups seem quite independent and non-overlapping to a large degree 19:18:28 Probably because the PCL Lispbox page has it listed as its only download for Windows. 19:18:32 ejs [n=eugen@221-100-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:32 hypno: clisp, ccl, allegro, lispworks, abcl. 19:18:39 Xach: on the LispWorks mailing list are former MCL users, which now may switch to CCL 19:18:54 lispm: and if you were to judge by the commercial presentations at ILC2009, you might think that Franz is 90% of the Lisp user community... 19:18:57 I think a lot of newbies go for clisp because they look around their distro packages and the think that "clisp" == Common Lisp ;) 19:19:07 heh 19:19:12 hypno: common lisp has many implementations, and that is a good thing. we should play to ur strengths rather than to the strenghts of a single implementation. 19:19:20 "I use gnu cc already, why not gnu lisp?" 19:19:36 drewc: i disagree. i think we should /differ/ from the moronic unix-way of doing things. the lisp world is already catering w 19:19:37 Xach: so they have still users 19:19:48 the ACL mailing list is kind of dead 19:19:54 Nobody would complain about the multiple implementations if there was one that just worked. 19:19:54 hypno: unix way? you speak nonsense. 19:20:01 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:20:11 their users are probably using the support mailing list 19:20:11 drewc: way to much to that apporach already. why not ship complete /systems/ rely on API-specifications and let it up for implementors to add the stuff their users need? 19:20:17 If I want a multithreaded Lisp that runs on Windows, OS X, and *nix, I'm out of luck. 19:20:38 hypno: that is orthagonal to the problems lisp implementors face. 19:20:45 Captain: CCL 19:21:07 I'll have to check that out. 19:21:45 LispWorks 19:21:45 hypno: if you want a 'distribution', you are free to put one together. Me, i'd rather my implementors focus on implemention, my distributors focus on distributions, and my programmers focus on programming. 19:21:49 hypno: I like your idea. Can't wait for the website :) 19:22:00 drewc: well, we differ there too. i want common lisp /systems/ with all the stuff that is needed. i do /not/ want just a CL implementation. 19:22:02 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:22:07 my users focus on using 19:22:14 But yes, of course.. not to replace the "pure" sbcl. but as a distro thing. 19:22:21 schmx, Xach: When I started, I went straight for GCL for that reason. 19:22:21 lispm, I'm only talking about free implementations, so LispWorks is out. 19:22:26 hypno: no, we don't differ there.. we just differ on who we think should distribute and maintain it. 19:22:28 Quite the mistake. 19:22:51 sellout: I am glad you survived to tell about it :) 19:22:59 *ZabaQ* has to go. Daily C++ pennance is over, time for some lisp hacking. 19:23:01 -!- ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has quit [] 19:23:12 hypno: if you want such a thing, i think you should make the effort. the SBCL team doesn't want such a thing as part of SBCL, and i agree. 19:23:36 Captain_Thunder: are there other non-Lisp programming environments that fit that bill? 19:23:38 hypno: and there are those making an effort. 19:23:41 Captain_Thunder: if so, which did you have in mind? 19:23:50 hypno: What about Lisp-in-a-box? 19:24:05 Xach, Python, Ruby, and Java probably fit that bill. 19:24:13 Python? 19:24:27 if you want green threads just use allegro or LW .. both fit the bill. 19:24:32 sellout: i have yet to try that. 19:24:39 schmx: heh. 19:24:46 drewc, they're commercial. 19:24:59 And quite expensive to boot. 19:25:04 Captain_Thunder: oh ... you're one of those. 19:25:12 One of what? 19:25:24 "I want it all, for free, now!" 19:25:25 haha 19:25:26 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:40 Hey, when other languages give it to me free, I come to expect it. 19:25:41 Is it bad form to use an ERROR form for the :INITFORM of a slot? 19:25:47 Captain_Thunder: then use those! 19:25:48 If no one else gave it away, I wouldn't care. 19:26:03 CCL gives you native threads without GIL 19:26:18 I was going to say earlier, I'll probably switch to CCL. 19:26:19 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-12-96.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:26:24 It looks quite nice. 19:26:24 CCL gives you native code without bytecode 19:26:38 tmh: no, i think it's one way to express 'this slot must be bound via an initarg' 19:26:54 drewc, so basically we shouldn't work on improving the language to match programmer's expectations, you should either use it as-is or get out? 19:27:11 Captain_Thunder: if you say so. 19:27:27 we should improve programmer's expectations 19:27:47 we do an object-reorientation 19:27:52 Er, no, their expectations surpass what Lisp provides. 19:27:58 It's Lisp that needs to be improved. 19:28:10 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-0-129.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:23 Not as a language, I agree it's the best language in the universe. 19:28:27 so, the one Python implementation has a native code compiler, no GIL? 19:28:45 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-23-143.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:28:50 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:29:32 Captain_Thunder: i highly doubt it's the best language in the universe. 19:29:40 Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 19:29:57 it is a local optimum 19:30:08 that it is 19:30:10 drewc: Stop pushing buttons :P 19:30:10 Well, of course I was exaggerating a bit, but I do believe it's the optimal language possible right now, with our current definitions of "programming language". 19:30:17 -!- KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-0-129.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:30:22 To surpass it would require a major paradigm shift. 19:30:27 sellout: haven't had my coffee yet :) 19:30:38 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has quit [] 19:30:42 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-0-242.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:47 Captain_Thunder: Then do it, package an implementation with an interface to a set of libraries that meets your needs. Why are you whining to others for not doing it? 19:30:57 Captain_Thunder: depends on what you plan to do with your language :) 19:31:15 stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:28 tmh, because the communities of other languages do it for me. 19:31:30 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@82.113.121.155] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:31:53 Captain_Thunder: then use those languages.... 19:32:05 Captain_Thunder: Welcome to the lisp community. You're now part of the 'team' that does these things :) 19:32:12 Captain_Thunder: Then you either want to contribute to this one to advance its use, or you want to use those other languages. Again, why are you whining to me about it? 19:32:18 Oh dear. 19:32:33 welcome 19:32:35 tmh, I never addressed you. 19:32:46 Feel free to ignore me. 19:32:57 Captain_Thunder: you addressed the channel, tmh is here. 19:33:01 -!- ejs [n=eugen@221-100-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:33:09 drewc: do you have some example site written with LOL that I could use for reference? I'm starting to think that ORMs would get in my way... 19:33:12 actually, I have to say I'm very impressed by the current activity of the various implementors 19:33:17 you all need some coffee 19:33:20 Captain_Thunder: It's hard to ignore "CAAAAPTAIN THUNNNDERRRRR!" 19:33:26 True. 19:33:28 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-150-84.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 19:33:29 p_l: yeah, kind of. 19:33:49 p_l: ask Fade for the link to the ROFLCOPTER source. 19:34:05 only GCL is a bit behind ;-) 19:34:12 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-166.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:34:13 I guess my basic observation is that the image Lisp presents to the rest of the world is shit right now. 19:34:18 Anyone know if CCL has anything like sb-ext:*init-hooks* and/or sb-ext:*save-hooks*? 19:34:20 p_l: but it does use ORM ... my own relational-objects-for-lisp. 19:34:21 Captain_Thunder: I very much like lisp. But I do not find it the best language available at this time... for some work. For other stuff it's great though :) 19:34:43 schmx, what work isn't it suited for? 19:34:49 If you're liable to disclose :) 19:35:06 Captain_Thunder: hard real time, why not? I don't find it suitable for embedded work 19:35:09 drewc: as long as it won't require specific behaviour and I can generate my own weirdo queries easily :) 19:35:13 Captain_Thunder: So? If it works for you, use it. If not, don't. The rest of the world's opinion can crawl up . 19:35:15 Captain_Thunder: i can understand your frustration in this regard, but the fact is that there is not enough resources (or even consensus) on what is wrong and what is needed, hence people will be offended. 19:35:19 Captain_Thunder: or how about that distribution thing the erlangers are doing? :) 19:35:30 p_l: it's very much designed to allow for such madness :) 19:35:46 Captain_Thunder: for me the issue is more around embedded and RT. It's not.. very good for me there :) 19:35:48 hypno, it's silly to be offended over a language. 19:35:57 schmx, yeah. 19:36:09 hypno: there are those of us trying to do something about it.. we get offended when people expect us to do it for them, for free. 19:36:21 drewc: I'm trying to integrate PostGIS :) 19:36:22 drewc, what are you trying to do? 19:36:30 Adlai` [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 19:37:10 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:37:47 Captain_Thunder: improve the description of 'common lisp' by augmenting it with community standard APIs in order to enable the creation of distributions and easily portable code bases. 19:37:51 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:37:59 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 19:38:01 Great goal. 19:38:07 What I feel most important here is that when you DO get around to making your sbcl distro with nice stuff included. please do NOT call it something with "batteries included". I hate that phrase :) 19:38:30 indeed.... a lot better use of time then whining on IRC. ;) 19:38:32 goose [n=goose@a88-112-252-193.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 19:38:40 WHAT! 19:38:42 drewc: HEATHEN 19:38:49 *Xach* has big plans, insufficient time 19:38:59 *tmh* seconds Xach 19:39:00 -!- goose is now known as Guest82816 19:39:06 I was thinking about creating my own SBCL distro with a Java FFI. 19:39:14 the Littlest Hacker just turned 1 today, he has a ways to go before i can get him to do some of this for me. 19:39:17 Xach: I'd really like to have your input on our CLtL3 endeavors. 19:39:21 And over time, the raw FFI could be augmented with Lispy libraries for GUI, sockets, etc. 19:39:25 Captain_Thunder: That's what I'm talking about. Just. Do. It. 19:39:34 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [] 19:39:43 tmh, I'm working on my own project right now (in Lisp, coincidentally). 19:39:49 drewc: what's the url again? 19:39:51 Maybe I'll get around to it some day. 19:39:53 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-214-225.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [""That's our secret... we kill you with kindness. What's your secret?""] 19:39:58 <_3b> for a methods-belog-to-classes object system, would it be better to have a (:constructor (lamba list) ...) option to defclass, or a (defconstructor class-name () ...) ? 19:40:03 -!- schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:40:05 In the mean time, is it so offensive to have a conversation about these problems? 19:40:10 Captain_Thunder: sounds like you're years behind what is actually available... why not use the existing java FFI'sm existing CFFI, existing sockets library, etc? 19:40:20 -!- Guest82816 [n=goose@a88-112-252-193.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 19:40:25 drewc, most of them haven't been updated in years. 19:40:30 Captain_Thunder: bullshit. 19:40:38 Um, not bullshit? 19:40:46 <_3b> Captain_Thunder: some conversations get old after the first few times :) 19:40:47 Captain_Thunder: It's tedious, this conversation gets had every week. It's interesting the first 256 times, then it just gets annoying. 19:41:01 tmh, then don't listen anymore. 19:41:10 that reminds me of the deep thought: "Laurie got offended when I used the word 'puke', but to me, that's what her dinner tasted like." 19:41:32 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.39.191] has joined #lisp 19:41:37 Jack Handy was a wise man. 19:42:42 Captain_Thunder: Or, you could go back and read the logs, comp.lang.lisp archives, and spare use the tedium. You've said nothing new. 19:42:43 Captain_Thunder: you do realize that you're the one who's new here, and that we do try to maintain a certain level of signal/noise ratio here... yes? Making a bunch of noise about how the lisp community doesn't cater to your every whim is not a good way to achieve anything, let alone make friends. 19:43:13 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-6-68.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:43:29 Look man, I just wanted to talk about how to make Lisp better. 19:43:43 <_3b> 'how to make lisp better == 19:43:49 <_3b> 'how to make lisp better' == 'improve lisp' 19:43:49 There's something wrong if you find that offensive. 19:43:55 Captain_Thunder: how long have you been writing software in CL? 19:43:57 <_3b> 'how to make lisp better' /= 'talk about improving lisp' 19:44:15 drewc, I dunno, on and off for about four years. 19:44:19 How is that relevant? 19:44:33 <_3b> Captain_Thunder: the offensive part is signal gets lost, but lisp doesn't get improved 19:44:42 let's make it more like Python 19:44:56 <_3b> the conversation itself is fine, as long as it takes place somewhere else 19:45:06 Captain_Thunder: Making lisp better is not offensive, not doing the proper review of the topic is. 19:45:06 Language-wise, no, community and image wise, yeah, let's make it more like Python. 19:45:18 Captain_Thunder: because i don't think you know enough common lisp to know what should be made 'better'.... if you think CFFI and iolib have not been updated in years, then you're so far off the state-of-the-art as to make your opinions worse-than-usless. 19:45:19 or java that's pretty popular 19:45:33 tmh, you think I haven't read the 500 post threads on c.l.l about this? 19:45:37 And still nothing gets done. 19:45:45 Captain_Thunder: there is no lisp community. 19:45:56 <_3b> Captain_Thunder: 'and still nothing gets done' is our point :/ 19:46:06 drewc, CFFI isn't completely supported on all platforms. 19:46:11 Captain_Thunder: Nothing you've posted here indicates that. If you had, you wouldn't have posted it. You'd be putting together the solution. 19:46:13 Captain_Thunder: so do it, quit complaining about how it doesn't get done and do it. 19:46:22 Captain_Thunder: what do you mean by that ? 19:46:28 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 19:46:35 Captain-Thunder, nobody uses all platforms 19:46:35 What *is* completely supported on all platforms? 19:46:38 choose one 19:46:42 be happy 19:46:48 pretend there are no others 19:46:52 fe[nl]ix, the docs say that callbacks aren't supported on all platforms, for one. 19:46:53 be even more happy 19:47:07 <_3b> Captain_Thunder: so complain to the makers of those platforms 19:47:14 Captain_Thunder: do you actually need callback, and you need them everywhere ? 19:47:20 Captain_Thunder, if you will never use that platform, who cares? 19:47:32 use one of the popular platforms 19:47:35 SBCL, CCL 19:47:39 I personally won't use that platform, but I'd like to distribute my software to people who will. 19:47:50 <_3b> tell them to complain then :) 19:48:07 let them switch 19:48:07 That's not a solution (although I know it's in jest :) ) 19:48:10 deliver an app 19:48:30 Captain_Thunder: Then focus development on your platform. Get it to a distributable state. Then abstract out implementation components and port as demand on other implementations develop. 19:48:33 Captain_Thunder: if you add ffi/callback to some standard all you'll be able to do is complain that implementation X doesn't implement said standard. 19:48:34 Ok, i'm going to get coffee, and when we come back Captain_Thunder will either be writing lisp or looking for a new language... no more whining k? :) 19:48:39 <_3b> it isn't really... if the platform can't support your app, and people want to run your app, they need to get the platform fixed 19:48:48 drewc, I'm already writing Lisp. 19:48:50 or organize better CFFI support for that platform 19:48:59 -!- JosefAssad [n=josef@1385158256.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:49:00 (A C compiler, actually) 19:49:05 feature support is usually user driven 19:49:17 JosefAssad [n=josef@1385158256.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:49:24 you are writing a C compiler in Lisp? 19:49:37 It adds Lisp macros to C. 19:49:42 *_3b* wonders if noone had opinions on the class/constructor stuff, or if just noone saw the question 19:49:45 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:49:49 Captain_Thunder: you need sockets, threads and a java FFI for a c-compiler? 19:50:00 drewc, I don't need any of that. 19:50:09 that's my point. 19:50:15 I'm speaking hypothetically. I like to write games too, and maybe some day I'd like to do that in Lisp. 19:50:39 -!- TekLok [n=TekLok@c-98-247-9-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:50:47 And, oh look it's #lisp, let's open a dialogue about how Lisp just doesn't appear very friendly for this type of work. 19:50:47 you have a wonderful opportunity to be a pioneer and make things easier for those who come after you. 19:51:00 I like that way of looking at it. 19:51:09 Captain_Thunder: CCL has excellent FFI capabilites. you can very easily interface to frameworks and gl. it's a blast really. 19:51:21 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g230033178.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:51:30 -!- abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:51:31 Yeah, I'll probably switch from SBCL to CCL. 19:51:34 hypno: but CCL doesn't run on my toaster! :D 19:51:54 i might want to write a bread-toasting software someday lol 19:52:03 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:52:07 drewc: Get a new toaster then, whiner. 19:52:22 I tried to run SBCL on my toaster, but there was an address space collision. 19:52:26 I WANT MY TOASTER TO RUN CCL 19:52:27 Funny, I thought CCL was -for- toasters? 19:52:33 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:37 drewc's got some revolutionary ideas about metatoaster protocols 19:52:47 ferada [n=user@e179235054.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:52:57 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:01 (deftoast white-bread ...) 19:53:33 drewc: you have a cylon^Wtoaster on your boat ? 19:54:01 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:54:02 I'm starting to understand how Talkie Toaster could come into being. didn't realize it ran lisp, though. 19:54:45 really .. most languages focus on the colour of the toast... but i want to focus on the moisture content.. i was told lisp was the best language, and it can't do toast? I'm pretty sure there is a toaster that runs java! 19:55:00 fe[nl]ix: you got me there.. we use the grill for toast. 19:55:20 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.132.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:55:37 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 19:55:55 well, Sun has always said that Java was really meant for toasters, not browsers 19:56:04 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.251.206] has joined #lisp 19:56:28 The temperatures coming off of current CPU's surely qualify them as toasters. 19:56:53 I have a quad-cpu, does this mean I can toast 4 slices at once? 19:57:01 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 19:57:08 drewc: http://www.embeddedarm.com/software/arm-netbsd-toaster.php and ECL and we'll have your toast toasted in notime! 19:57:17 S11001001: toasters usually toast four sides at a time. 19:57:34 S11001001: four CPUs could toast two slices at a time, i think. 19:57:47 iRobot is using a CL variant on robots 19:58:12 maybe we are not that far from seeing some Lisp on toasters 19:58:41 can someone explain to me the reason for using (symbol-value)? 19:58:42 lispm: Really? I've been considering getting a roomba. 19:58:44 don't know if the cleaning robots have CL on board, though 19:59:05 stuart71: you want the special/dynamic value of a symbol not the lexical, or you are using it for a convenient layer of indirection 19:59:09 lisp-powered robotic death toasters 19:59:11 lispm: Good point. They do suck. 19:59:12 bad trend 19:59:21 stuart71: to get the dynamic value currently bound to a symbol. 19:59:37 even when it's lexically bound? 19:59:45 Peter Seibel says: 'and the Roomba, the autonomous robotic vacuum cleaner, whose software is written in L, a downwardly compatible subset of Common Lisp' 20:00:05 Ah, L, I think I've seen a paper on that. 20:00:08 I can't get that to work in sbcl. I'm doig something wrong, or I don't understand how it workd. 20:00:11 works 20:00:12 is this L discribed somewhere? 20:00:30 luis: I'm looking, I'm pretty sure I've seen the paper. 20:00:30 stuart71: no, lexical values are not available to symbol-value, only special/dynamic variable. 20:01:02 hey now (defmacro progn-once (&body body) (let ((place `',(gensym))) `(if (boundp ,place) (symbol-value ,place) (setf (symbol-value ,place) (progn . ,body))))) 20:01:16 luis: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~chuck/pubpg/luv95.pdf 20:01:17 so if I understand correctly, 20:01:18 stuart71: if you want the symbol-value of a lexically bound non-special symbol, you're doing something very wrong :) 20:01:20 rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 20:01:54 (defvar *a* 10) (let ((*a* 0)) (symbol-value '*a*)) => 10 ? 20:01:59 it seems like a common naïve desire. i know i wanted to do it early on. 20:02:05 oui 20:02:26 stuart71: do you have a repl handy? 20:02:27 that should be 0 20:02:38 drewc: yes 20:02:47 stuart71: and what answer do you get? 20:02:51 I let me try it again 20:03:00 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:03:40 stuart71: if that's what your CL implementation returns, you have a nice bug report to file 20:03:45 stuart71: and then compare with (funcall (let ((*a* 0)) (lambda () (symbol-value '*a*)))) 20:03:49 I get 0 20:04:03 that's definitely a good sign 20:04:17 Slom [n=a@pD9EB6A13.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:30 only 32MB RAM on that toaster, what CLs will fit? 20:05:13 S11001001: ECL? 20:05:15 ECL? CLISP? 20:05:18 sure 20:05:22 stuart71: the DEFVAR form globally declares *A* as a 'special variable', which means it's a dynamic value. LET is (unfortunately) used to bind both lexical and special variables. 20:05:35 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:05:37 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 20:06:08 'Brooks, ra 1993 , L: A Subset of Common Lisp,. Technical report, MIT' 20:06:25 Taggnostr [n=x@86.50.69.116] has joined #lisp 20:06:28 pstickne [n=pstickne@24.21.76.57] has joined #lisp 20:06:51 lispm: That looks like a more comprehensive reference than the one I gave. 20:07:05 I don't have that, though 20:07:07 stuart71: if none of that makes sense to you, see http://www.flownet.com/ron/specials.pdf 20:07:22 drewc: (funcall (let ((*a* 10)) (lambda () *a*))) also returns 10. I'm confused. 20:07:30 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g230026232.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:07:44 stuart71: the *s don't make it special 20:07:47 lispm: It may be accessible, MIT is good about making reports accessible. 20:07:58 stuart71: try (funcall (let ((*a* 1)) ... )) 20:08:10 should also return 10, assuming the defvar happened first. 20:08:20 Muld [i=wr23@88-196-35-26-dsl.noe.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 20:08:20 -!- Muld [i=wr23@88-196-35-26-dsl.noe.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:08:40 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-150-84.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 20:08:58 Muld [n=wr23@88-196-35-26-dsl.noe.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 20:09:04 in drewc's statement, the defvar makes it special. There is no standard way to un-special a symbol; you can unintern it and reintern the name, because the specialness is attached to the object not the name, but that will invalidate existing references 20:09:17 drewc: that's right. it's still 10, but shouldn't *a* be shadowed? 20:09:38 stuart71: only in the dynamic scope of the LET. 20:10:00 stuart71: think about the order in which things happen. First, *a* is special-bound to 1, then, the closure is created... 20:10:10 tmh: I can't find it 20:10:10 Oh, and the lambda gets executed *outside* of let. 20:10:20 stuart71: when you return a function from that dynamic scope, and funcall it outside, you will only get the value bound in the current dynamic environment. 20:10:26 stuart71: exactly! 20:11:02 stuart71: now, grab a reference to the function, wrap a new LET form around the funcall, and be amazed :) 20:11:39 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 20:11:46 I believe I understand that, so why use (symbol-value) again? 20:11:46 stuart71: personally, i think the special variables in CL are a broken and outdated idea, but i would not give up dynamic scoping for the world. 20:11:50 lispm: I haven't had any luck either. 20:12:29 I'm being thick, I know. Sorry :) 20:12:44 stuart71: if you have a list of symbols that you want to get the dynamic value of, the symbol-value makes some sense. Otherwise, it's not terribly useful for variables. 20:13:33 stuart71: however, symbols are a first class data type in CL, so you might have other reasons to throw something in the VALUE slot of a random symbol and retrieve it. 20:13:33 This is one of the references Brooks cites in the paper I do have. -> http://hdl.handle.net/1721.1/6551 20:14:16 stuart71: for the most part, you shouldn't need symbol value, and you'll know where it is when/if you do need it :) 20:14:48 stuart71: you might want to search c.l.l for 'DEFLEX', which is an implementation of non-special global variables. 20:14:57 Jacob_H_ [n=jacob@92.0.147.111] has joined #lisp 20:15:25 stuart71: playing with that and the various ways to implement it should give you a firm grasp on symbols. 20:15:50 drewc: Thank you. I'll have to meditate on that. I think I thought I knew something that I don't think I know. 20:16:06 stuart71: and if at one point you think 'this is stupid, lexical variables and dynamic variables are completely different things and should be separated in the language core', then you're not alone, i agree ;) 20:16:20 *tmh* gets back to work. 20:16:42 (most common lispers agree to a certain extent as well, hence the *earmuffs* convention) 20:17:16 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:17:20 -!- Blkt [n=Blkt@dynamic-adsl-94-37-236-153.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:18:14 I've seen where they're useful in, for instance, lispbuilder-sdl, and have used that idea in some code of my own, but I guess I misunderstood the usage of symbol-value. 20:18:28 I think I'd like to see a more extended LET... Not quite LETF, perhaps, but something that can accept (symbol-value FOO) as a place to indicate dynamic binding and alien-type values to get local-alien behavior, and... 20:18:49 BB to the rescue? 20:18:54 nyef: disagree! 20:19:15 nyef: i want DYNAMIC-LET and ALIEN-LET, for example. 20:19:18 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:19:20 Ugh. 20:19:42 (you can call them alet and dlet if you prefer) 20:19:52 Wrong. I can see the argument for DYNAMIC-LET, but ALIEN-LET is just wrong. 20:20:16 hmm. perhaps the earmuffs should just be a reader macro to indicate dynamic behaviour 20:20:23 JeLuF [i=jf@mormo.org] has joined #lisp 20:20:26 well, i'm not going to argue with you on that... my ALIEN knowledge is approximately knowing it exists and has something to do with C :) 20:20:47 serichsen: that's the compromise solution yeah. 20:21:11 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.39.191] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:21:14 that would also remove the (declare (special x)) 20:21:16 serichsen: personally, i see nothing wrong with (DYNAMIC SYMBOL) ... i think it's very clear what's going on when that form is encountered. 20:21:29 -!- Jacob_H_ is now known as Jacob_H 20:21:41 WITH-ALIEN establishes lexical bindings, and about the only extra information associated (at a user level) is an alien type. 20:21:43 drewc: ok, if *symbol* can be syntactic sugar for that ;) 20:21:47 serichsen: see ContextL for a nice implementation of dynamic variables and first class dynamic environments. 20:21:58 serichsen: yeah, thats the compromise :) 20:22:04 I'd rather (let ((foo (...))) (declare (type (alien bar) foo)) ...) 20:22:21 rpg [n=rpg@c-75-73-49-33.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:30 nyef: i'd accept that, looks good to me. 20:22:34 mjf [n=mjf@r11gz66.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 20:22:47 -!- stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:23:40 Hi, is there any Lisp interpreter written in PHP? I've tried to find something with google, but all I got were articles about Lisp with some links to "You might be interested in the following articles..... something about PHP" 20:24:27 I am shocked and appalled... 20:24:27 JeLuF: The only web based lisp interpreters I'm aware of are in javasript and they are very basic. 20:24:29 dynamic-let sounds horrible 20:24:30 TekLok [n=TekLok@c-98-247-9-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:39 jsnell: why ? 20:24:58 jsnell: indeed, why? 20:25:04 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-84-151.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:25:17 dynamic-let could be implemented as a macro, no? 20:25:17 it's pushing the distinction into too low a level 20:25:20 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:23 JeLuF: i don't know about straight PHP, but there's one for Drupal called Dript. (it wasn't very good last i checked) 20:25:25 will you then have dynamic-dotimes? 20:25:28 Of course, I've got more involved stuff to deal with in SB-ALIEN when next I settle in to trying to hack on it. I have a use-case that is ending up boxing alien values in order to run a typep on their boxed representation before unboxing them to call out again. 20:26:07 or will somebody wanting to use dotimes (or as a more realistic example, a flet or a defun) then have to manually establish a dynamic binding in the body? 20:26:08 ah wait, that misses the point, I guess 20:26:21 I hope that there is no Lisp in PHP ;-) 20:26:24 tmh: Javascript is not really what I'm looking for. It should run server-side, as macro language for a PHP application 20:26:29 stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:50 jsnell: yes, if you want a dynamic binding you have to explicitly establish a binding for it. 20:26:51 wasn't there OTOH a PHP compiler written in Lisp? 20:26:57 lispm: yes 20:27:07 what woudl dynamic-let do? 20:27:09 lispm: Yes. timjr had something to do with it. 20:27:11 JeLuF: I think you would be better of with full-featured CL system 20:27:14 JeLuF: why not just use lisp directly, when you're on the server anyway? 20:27:18 right 20:27:19 the roadsend php compiler 20:27:21 there are better ways to explicitly establish a dynamic binding. for example LET 20:27:23 JeLuF: CL or Scheme/Clojure/etc. 20:27:25 JeLuF: Server-side? Well, then, you're in luck. Install lisp and use hunchentoot! 20:27:48 Written in Scheme, along with a lot of the runtime library. 20:27:57 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-166.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:27:57 http://www.roadsend.com/home/index.php?pageID=compiler 20:27:57 serichsen: some users of the PHP app might not be able to install additional programs or use exec() or similar 20:28:02 someone summon fusss and make him give a pep talk about his rocket-powered hunchentoot 20:28:06 (let ((a 1) ((dynamic a) 2)) (values a (dynamic a)) ;; I could be talked into this, if you want to make it explicit 20:28:21 jsnell: i don't like not knowing the semantics of (funcall (let ((foo 1)) (lambda () foo))) 20:28:33 jsnell: i could be talking into that as well 20:28:43 artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has joined #lisp 20:28:53 -!- Slom [n=a@pD9EB6A13.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 20:28:55 I think I understand symbol-value now. I just had it backwards! 20:29:19 jsnell: but then the argument can lean towards (let (((values (a b c)) (values 1 2 3))) ...) 20:29:29 In a LOOP, can I collect more than one thing? It's tempting to write my LOOP like a C-style while using setfs to increment, but I would like to try using LOOP. 20:29:30 stuart71: eulav-lobmys? 20:29:40 I think it might make specials too annoying in practice, but at least it won't suffer from the horrible combinatorial explosion problem that a separate dynamic binding form would have 20:29:42 jsnell: see metabang.bind, or even worse, BB. 20:29:43 serichsen: lol 20:29:45 artagnon: yes 20:29:51 serichsen: could you illustrate? 20:29:53 artagnon: yes. you can collect many things into one list, or into separate lists. 20:30:00 drewc: what's BB ? 20:30:02 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:30:08 artagnon: do you want to collect into many into many or many into one? 20:30:12 Xach: how will the two lists be returned? 20:30:13 jsnell: i've been using DEFDYNAMIC and DLET for a while now, and i actually prefer it. 20:30:15 I don't think it'd go there. this is a namespacing question, not a destructuring question 20:30:17 Xach: two lists 20:30:20 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 20:30:29 roadsend php is open source and written in Bigloo Scheme... 20:30:34 cool 20:30:50 (let (((function foo) (lambda (x) (1+ x)))) (foo 2)) 20:30:50 I'll attempt and paste some code otherwise, one sec. 20:30:51 artagnon: if you want two lists, use "into" to specify where you collect them and 20:30:56 jsnell: and right, exactly .. this is about namespaces... we have FUNCTION and FLET, why not DYNAMIC and DLET ? 20:31:04 rpg: into. Ok, got it 20:31:07 *artagnon* tries 20:31:08 artagnon: you could return them as 2 values, or a list of lists, or whatever. 20:31:10 then use finally (return (values list1 list2)) to return two values... 20:31:14 artagnon: one way is finally (return (values ...)) 20:31:17 jsnell: heh .. i actually like that too. 20:31:31 fe[nl]ix: BB .. hold on i'll find a link 20:31:37 *rpg* was dashing to see if he could beat Xach to the punch... 20:31:48 rpg && Xach: after the two collect intos? Ok, I'll try 20:31:57 rpg: i was busy actually testing the syntax...i don't think i've ever used that yet 20:32:06 fe[nl]ix: be afraid, be very afraid : http://www.flownet.com/ron/lisp/rg-utils.lisp 20:32:20 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh 20:32:32 Xach: I've used it all the time. I used to be a big LOOPhead. But now I've pretty much given it up in favor of ITERATE. 20:32:38 *Xach* watches a lightbulb shine 20:32:44 I also need a hint with arbitrary stepping- how do I do it in this LOOP: (loop for moo never nil ...) 20:32:45 drewc: because the combinatorial issues become worse and worse as we add more namespaces 20:33:02 Largely because I'm a big fan of multiple values. 20:33:02 dflet* (aaargh) 20:33:03 rpg: i like loop, but i tend to give up on it instead of looking up (even slightly) complex constructs 20:33:22 drewc: how would you access a dynamic variable if they had their own namespace? (dynamic varname)? 20:33:24 can I setf in the do or is there a better way? 20:33:32 jsnell: that's fair, and i could be convinced to overload LET if, and only if, we can also overload lambda-lists in the same manner. 20:33:34 smoofra: yes 20:33:35 Hunh. We have had an athos for a while. Now there's an artagnon who looks to be in need of a d', where's aramis and porthos? 20:33:46 -!- stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:33:54 ;) 20:34:04 artagnon: if your talking about lists, push then nreverse in do. 20:34:06 nyef: it's d'artagnan, not d'artagnon :p 20:34:15 drewc: sure, the point would be that it'd be implemented at such a level that it works automatically for all binding constructs 20:34:15 Meh. Works for the joke, though. 20:34:20 smoofra: see the implementation in ContextL 20:34:28 commmmodo [n=commmmod@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:34:29 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:38 since the number of primitive binding constructs is limited, and everyone else just builds on top of those 20:34:47 wouldn't be CL though, so I'll shut up :-) 20:34:51 artagnon: You don't need to push and nreverse in a loop --- just COLLECT. 20:35:06 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:35:09 artagnon: why do you want to setf in DO? 20:35:11 tmh: ok, got it. I'll (loop for moo never nil do (setf moo (blah moo))) 20:35:15 jsnell: it might be cltl4 :) 20:35:18 rpg: arbitrary stepping 20:35:27 artagnon: define please 20:35:40 artagnon: oops, I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about (do ...) not (loop ... do). Ignore what I said. 20:35:42 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 20:35:56 tmh: ok 20:36:05 artagnon: (loop for moo = (blah moo) while moo ...) 20:36:18 rpg: oh 20:36:39 rpg: loop for moo = (blah moo) while moo never nil is alright? 20:36:51 artagnon: actually (loop for moo = then (blah moo) while moo...) 20:37:19 drewc: BB. impressive. 20:37:27 fe[nl]ix: 20:37:39 rpg: Equals-Then Iteration from http://gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html, right? 20:37:39 fe[nl]ix: you can thank Xach for pointing me to that gem. 20:37:48 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:37:50 rpg: ok, got it. I'll try now. 20:38:11 *artagnon* goes off to convert his stupid C-style while-setf loop into the LOOP 20:38:37 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:38:47 Xach: thanks. I now have more examples of what to *never* try to replicate :D 20:39:01 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@86.50.69.116] has quit [No route to host] 20:40:44 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:42:09 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B1BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:15 -!- Muld [n=wr23@88-196-35-26-dsl.noe.estpak.ee] has quit [Success] 20:44:46 -!- JHVH is now known as Jarvellis 20:44:57 -!- sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has quit [] 20:45:20 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:26 artagnon: I'm not sure I know what "never nil" does. 20:46:03 rpg: Termination Tests in http://gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html -- never is a keyword 20:46:08 You can't do (loop for moo = (blah moo) ... ) the first time, right? 20:46:40 Taggnostr [n=x@86.50.69.116] has joined #lisp 20:46:49 *artagnon* shrugs 20:46:50 fe[nl]ix: after seeing BB, i can't take him seriously anymore. That's a bit of a shame, as i liked his 'lexicons' quite a bit. 20:46:54 LOOP is confusing 20:47:03 wait, I'll post some code I wrote so we can discuss that. 20:47:18 dlowe [n=dlowe@pool-72-72-99-62.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:19 artagnon: Eeek! Now I see why I never use "never" or any of its ilk --- it skips the loop epilog, which I pretty much never want to do. 20:47:35 drewc: you got a link for BB? 20:47:50 rpg: oh, it says that O_O *re-reads* 20:48:14 smoofra: see the link i gave to fe[nl]ix 'bout 30 lines back 20:48:15 skipping not only any subsequent loop clauses but also the epilogue 20:48:16 damn 20:48:20 it's useless 20:48:24 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.251.206] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:49:29 heh i wrote a macro like bb once 20:49:29 artagnon: what did you want 'while moo never nil' to do that 'while moo' wont? 20:49:43 smoofra: hopefully before you knew better .. right? 20:49:55 drewc: yea lets call it a learning experience 20:50:16 smoofra: BB is so worrying because rg should know better! :D 20:50:30 how can i insert elements into a list? e.g. cons x '() only inserts 1 element i want to insert more than 1 element 20:51:01 Bigshot_: PUSH, APPEND, etc. 20:51:02 drewc: oh ok, I'll remove the never nil then. 20:51:06 Bigshot_: LIST* 20:51:08 -!- LiamH [n=none@208.72.159.207] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:51:29 k 20:51:29 drewc: I didn't know while moo was sufficient 20:51:49 Bigshot_: (list* 1 2 3 '(1 3 4)) => (1 2 3 1 3 4) 20:52:05 artagnon: Sorry - O_O? 20:52:29 artagnon: indeed... anyting that tests for 'truth' will fail when given NIL, which is the false value and the empty list '() 20:52:50 drewc: right. I was worried more about the construct of the loop macro 20:52:57 wait wait wait. I'm pasting. 20:53:32 artagnon: if one really wanted to be clear, one could use :unless (null moo) or :until (null foo) or some variant of that. 20:54:07 drewc: LOOP has all *that* too? Is LOOP documented somewhere nicely? Better than PCL? 20:54:24 (also, some lispers prefer using :keyword symbols as loop keywords ... since you are just starting i recommend doing so as well) 20:54:32 artagnon: Ha. 20:54:54 artagnon: there is the CLHS ... but it's not exactly clear documentation. 20:54:56 Oh, wow. BB is... demented. And WTF is up with the example use-case for :with being so trivially crippled when it comes to any advanced use of the underlying macro? 20:55:20 clhs LOOP 20:55:20 nyef: BB? 20:55:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 20:55:21 artagnon pasted "The LOOP conversion" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82876 20:55:46 p_l: drewc, fe[nl]ix and smoofra just had this discussion. 20:55:59 stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:18 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:38 ugh wrong lexicon.lisp http://norvig.com/paip/lexicon.lisp. where is it? 20:56:45 nyef: you can't get #lisp to agree on much, but it think we can all agree that BB is scary. 20:56:56 I've abstracted and simplified out certain things- don't be worried if my functions are missing some arguments 20:57:10 smoofra: i can't find rg's lexicon.lisp anywhere anymore. There was a paper somewhere at one point too. 20:57:41 drewc: Ah, I should use the Hyperspec more often for reference than the PCL page 20:58:26 artagnon: With loop, my experience has been that you need to do a lot of Try It and See(TIAS) with subsets of what you want to do. 20:58:34 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4c2a.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:58:36 Coupled with the hyperspec. 20:58:45 tmh: Right, understood. 20:58:45 artagnon: indeed... learning how to use and understand the hyperspec is a very important part of becoming a lisper. Having said that, the CLHS is almost useless for learning LOOP 20:58:55 LOOP has never worked right for me. 20:59:00 Without quite a bit of prodding, that is. 20:59:01 *artagnon* smiles 20:59:30 I think I made a big mess in my big complex example. I'll try some more simpler stuff before this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/82876 20:59:41 *Captain_Thunder* should write a LOOP macro for Arc that uses extremely verbose keywords 20:59:49 does the form look alright atleast? 20:59:57 artagnon: i find in my older code my LOOP use was very basic. Now, i tend towards slightly less basic use, but never what i'd call advanced. 21:00:17 artagnon: that LET form can't be right. 21:00:17 nyef: good thing I have /lastlog :) 21:00:20 what's wrong with this? (push one-element '()) 21:00:23 drewc: what's the alternative? using simpler loops? 21:00:45 drewc: er 21:00:46 right 21:00:50 artagnon: more for-equals, and-equals 21:00:50 Bigshot_: Attempting to modify a literal constant. 21:00:53 some name confusion :p 21:00:57 artagnon: indeed.. doing a lot of what LOOP does manually can, in some cases, make for clearer code. 21:01:17 dlowe pasted "complex loop example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82878 21:01:26 Bigshot_: PUSH takes a place as its second argument, and a QUOTE form is not a valid place. 21:01:28 artagnon: but i almost always still use cl:loop, just not a lot of its advanced features. 21:01:32 *artagnon* looks at dlowe's example 21:01:39 tmh: hm..? 21:02:03 dlowe: that's about as complex a loop as i'd ever write :) 21:02:09 ok, wtf was that!? nested looping! 21:02:12 dlowe: but i've seen much worse :) 21:02:30 drewc: yeah, but that one is fun cause it's a self-contained game 21:02:42 dlowe: i'm all for it! 21:02:43 -!- stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:02:58 OMG. A complete game? 21:03:04 artagnon: run it :) 21:03:06 artagnon: Well, the let form looks incorrect. 21:03:09 *drewc* actually likes LOOP, lispy or not. 21:03:33 *artagnon* tries running it 21:03:39 tmh: yeah, I'll correct that. 21:03:46 wow lexicon.lisp really does seem to have been utterly erased from the internet 21:03:50 Can I do anything to get rid of the setfs in the let? 21:04:07 I don't like setf. I've been abused time and again here for using it 21:04:31 artagnon: screen-name and uri could be for screen-name = (matched-string ...) and uri = (matched-string ...) 21:04:40 artagnon: setf is good... using it incorrectly is not-so-good :) 21:05:18 artagnon: you never introduce SCREEN-NAME and URI as variables... so what is it you are setf'ing? 21:05:44 tmh: excellent suggestion! :D 21:06:08 drewc: because I'm collecting them later 21:06:12 tmh annotated #82876 "No SETF" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82876#1 21:06:31 artagnon: collecting what? (this is a trick question) 21:06:49 artagnon: That is untested, but the general idea is there. 21:06:53 artagnon: what is SETF defined to do when given a symbol that is not a variable? 21:06:54 'and'? that's a surprise 21:07:23 tmh: that's alright. The idea is what I'm looking for anyway. Thanks :) 21:07:47 drewc: er, I don't know. What? 21:07:54 drewc: make it a variable? 21:07:58 drewc: I used to like loop, but iterate crushes it because multiple-values work in iterate, emacs knows how to indent it reliably, and nested conditionals aren't godawful. 21:07:59 artagnon: _nothing_ 21:08:25 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:08:25 drewc: what!? I can (setf moo bar) now, where bar is a list and moo hasn't been defined earlier. 21:08:26 rpg: i don't like iterate simply because its code-walker does not interact well with my code-walker. 21:08:31 drewc: and it should work, no? 21:08:36 artagnon: no, you can't 21:08:50 krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-63-195.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:08:51 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-118-37.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:08:52 *artagnon* stares blankly 21:08:58 artagnon: it's undefined... demons could fly out of your nose. 21:09:16 artagnon: each implementation is free to do whatever it wants with that form. 21:09:33 abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 21:09:38 many of them will create a global special... that is _not_ what you want as you've now broken closures ;) 21:09:40 drewc: Damn, damn, damn. 21:09:49 I need to get my fundamentals right. 21:10:01 drewc: right. 21:10:21 drewc: so it should only be setf'ed inside a let form? 21:10:34 how can i insert elements inside a "nil" list one-by-one? 21:10:38 ie. (let ((moo nil)) (setf moo bar)) --? 21:11:15 Bigshot_: add-to-list after make-list should work I think 21:11:18 artagnon: yes.. in that case you've introduced MOO as a lexical variable... and since SETF is defined to work on variables (among other things) .. you're good. 21:11:29 Bigshot_: (let ((var '())) (push 3 var)) 21:11:38 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:54 Bigshot_: a 'NIL' list is the symbol 'NIL' ... how would you insert items into a symbol? :) 21:12:28 drewc: I see. That was wonderfully eye-opening. 21:12:33 i am using mapcar and lambda(x) and i want to push x inside an empty list 21:12:34 drewc: You're always trying to teach, I just throw them the fish. 21:12:48 tmh: i'm short on fish :) 21:12:51 I've said it before, I'll say it again. PCL is overrated. I haven't managed to learn anything from it :( 21:13:19 artagnon: have you tried touretzky> ? maybe PCL is to advanced for you. 21:13:22 tmh: These are fundamentals! I can't believe I didn't get this! 21:13:23 minion: gentle? 21:13:23 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 21:13:59 drewc: what!? too advanced? I understood *everything* in the book. 21:14:11 symbolic computing 21:14:12 ah 21:14:13 thanks 21:14:15 I'll read this 21:14:16 artagnon: you didn't understand variables and setf. 21:14:38 artagnon: i'm sure there are other things. I didn't understand the condition system until i had used it for a few years :) 21:15:15 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 21:15:16 no, I didn't understand variables and symbols from PCL :( 21:15:25 I'm forgetting and relearning the condition system, on demand 21:15:29 I have no idea what condition system you're talking about :p 21:15:45 lispm: that makes me feel better :D 21:16:18 artagnon: then you most certainly didn't understand *everything* in the book :P 21:16:26 heh. I still haven't got a clue with lexical/dynamic scoping, I somehow go around it ;-) 21:16:45 LOL. Ok, I'm the dumb one then- no point blaming the book ;) 21:16:59 (read: I always forget every time I relearn it) 21:17:17 p_l: have a read of http://www.flownet.com/ron/specials.pdf 21:17:36 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:17:44 drewc: I like iterate because of all those do (multiple-value-setq ...) and do (cond ...) bletcherousnesses I've seen in LOOP code. 21:18:05 p_l: or just remember : dynamic = run-time , lexical = compile-time ... if you can sort that out you're good to go :) 21:18:07 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:18:08 Anyway, I should be off. Thanks for everything, everyone. I'll come back later with the good LOOP code, but it looks like learning symbols/ variables is priority now :p 21:18:14 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:19 -!- artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has left #lisp 21:18:33 drewc: Touretzky? Isn't that the book about common lisp with all the swearing? ;-) 21:18:43 rpg: i can't disagree with you there. 21:18:49 hahaha :) 21:19:07 if _i_ wrote an intro to CL it would include a lot of swearing. 21:19:19 drewc: I somehow had this concept that lexical will according to position, while dynamic scope will go through nesting like knife through butter ;-) 21:19:32 "The Pirate's Guide to Common Lisp" ? 21:19:38 p_l: that's accurate enough :) 21:19:47 drewc: Common Lisp the Language, as told by Quentin Tarantino? 21:19:49 drewc: to bring it full circle, the swearing would start with LOOP where I've forgotten to put the finally (return ...) and the bloody thing returned nothing... 21:19:53 Common Lisp, the dirty secrets 21:20:14 CLtL in LOLCAT? 21:20:41 rpg: i still get confused when DOLIST doesn't return a value, though the value i'm expecting it to return seems to differ each time i get confused. 21:21:21 tmh is there any other way? your approach is giving me ( (2) (4) (8)) but i want (2 4 8) 21:21:24 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:39 Bigshot_: is this homework? 21:21:59 Bigshot_: An example paste my help. drewc: good question. 21:22:03 *might* 21:22:16 *tmh* apparently is typing phonetically. 21:22:28 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.114.155] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:22:29 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:23:06 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:23:24 Common Lisp : It's fucking good enough for now. 21:23:37 (c) 21:23:42 chapter 1 : you suck though... 21:24:03 chapter 1145: not as sucky 21:24:33 chapter 1,000,001 : ok, lisp sucks too, but at least your know why. 21:24:41 you know* 21:24:54 heh 21:25:05 *dlowe* thinks lispers need to give it a little more public affection instead of hating on it. 21:25:24 dlowe: it's abusive relationship? ;D 21:25:29 lispers hate all languages, they just hate lisp less 21:25:32 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:34 dlowe: we tried that ... they called us smug and weenies! 21:25:43 smoofra: I don't think that's a superior position 21:25:52 drewc: I'm ok with that :D 21:26:06 dlowe: i agree actually :D 21:26:34 smoofra: amen 21:26:40 dlowe: it takes 1,000,001 chapters to figure out that lisp sucks ... took me only one of python :P 21:26:49 *p_l* finally acted on his goal of learning CL due to a certain "smug lisp weenie" blog ;-) 21:26:54 that's a endorsement! 21:26:57 an* 21:27:20 -!- fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g230033178.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:27:23 http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LispHippie 21:27:41 i thought it was the haskell people that were h ippies 21:27:49 you need to get an Symbolics 3600, it displays on its LED "Yes, master" on pressing the boot switch 21:28:15 "Some LispHippies even think that DynamicScoping is a good idea.." LOL! 21:28:30 Though I have just recently seen "Yes, master" being the Lisp prompt of some guy's Lisp 21:28:32 lispm: you're joking, right? 21:28:33 could add a bunch of folk to the smugweenie list 21:28:41 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-242.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:28:43 p_l, no 21:28:45 (about pressing the boot switch) 21:28:49 no 21:28:54 lisp: that's only because he was in the |Yes, master| package, right? 21:28:56 ... DO WANT 21:29:51 dlowe: it looked like a prompt 21:30:00 dlowe: the prompt is easily customizable 21:30:07 *dlowe* was joking :p 21:30:11 slime or native 21:30:13 the 'master' package 21:30:19 one package to rule them all 21:30:31 muahahha 21:31:54 -!- JosefAssad [n=josef@1385158256.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:32:03 JosefAssad [n=josef@1385158256.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:33:36 I think I have met a few LispHippies 21:34:04 the crazy ones 21:34:14 lispm: RMS? 21:34:30 yes 21:34:52 he definitely is a Lisp Hippie 21:35:22 down to unhealthy and unhygienic behaviour? 21:35:30 haha 21:35:38 then there are the LispCowboys 21:35:44 sussman 21:35:53 kenny tilton ? 21:36:04 tilton 21:36:19 tilton is a self-defined smug lisp weenie ;-) 21:36:50 see his youtube video and you can see the crazy flicker in his eyes 21:36:53 ;-) 21:39:11 I always liked the "It sucks less" tagline. "Common Lisp, It Sucks Less." 21:40:07 I recently began to like "not dead, just smells funny" 21:40:12 for CL 21:40:46 lispm: that is too close to unix's "it's dead and starts to smell bad" for my liking :/ 21:41:00 I did not know this 21:41:05 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 21:41:28 it has been around since time of UNIX V10, I think 21:41:35 that would ca. 1990 21:42:30 -!- jlpeters [n=james@c-24-19-32-179.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:43:24 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:43:47 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:45:13 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:41 -!- mdwyer [n=mdwyer@mdwyer-mac.tamu.edu] has quit [] 21:46:16 -!- Guest74049 [n=user@72.14.228.129] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:47:02 brown [n=user@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 21:47:25 lispm: are there LispZenMasters ? 21:47:26 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@139.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:47:30 -!- brown is now known as Guest49718 21:48:00 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 21:48:06 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:48:50 fe[nl]ix: Moon and Minsky, surely 21:48:51 i'd forgotten about tilton's youtube video. 21:49:20 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:54 is there a function to remove occurences of NIL from a list? 21:50:10 oh nvm 21:50:21 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:50:23 Bigshot_: remove-if-not #'identity? 21:50:29 remove-if #'null 21:50:36 (remove nil .. 21:50:45 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 21:50:45 or just (remove nil ...) 21:51:03 hey, (remove nil ...) is another approach. 21:52:06 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 21:53:01 jao [n=jao@0.Red-83-43-34.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:48 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:31 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:59:14 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:00:28 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.147.111] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:00:48 forgive my format ignorance, but is it possible to something like: (format nil "~{~a~^~a~}" '(1 2 3) #\,) where the separator isn't part of the format string per se? 22:01:35 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:02:01 (format t "~{~A~^~A~}" '(1 - 2 - 3 -)) 22:02:22 (format t "~{~A~^~A~}" (zip list (make-circular-list separator))) 22:02:58 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@223.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:03:00 (format t (format nil "~~{~~A~~^~A~~}" separator) list) 22:03:02 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has quit [] 22:03:17 slyrus: what pjb is trying to say is "no" 22:03:36 lol 22:03:48 -!- rpg [n=rpg@c-75-73-49-33.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:04:01 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:04:34 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:04:40 circular lists are #1=(fun . #1#) 22:04:52 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:05:31 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 22:05:40 thanks pjb, Krystof 22:06:18 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:07:22 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:07:33 -!- nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving the office."] 22:07:56 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:08:02 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 22:08:31 -!- astalla [n=astalla@93-36-226-46.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 22:08:34 slyrus_: if you really want it, I'd recommend (format nil "~v/join/" #\, '(1 2 3)) over any of pjb's 22:08:41 Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 22:08:49 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 22:08:51 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:09:12 (I am only here being cross because _yet again_ I got careless playing a roguelike too late at night) 22:09:31 You could easily implement join with one of my expressions ... :-) 22:10:03 your third breaks in the case of a tilde as separator 22:10:08 I've told you that before 22:10:17 Arg! Yes, indeed. 22:10:51 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:11:02 how do you shove sbcl into interpreted repl? 22:11:09 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 22:11:22 sbcl 22:11:42 -- not the compiled repl that it defaults to 22:11:56 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Interpreter.html 22:12:15 thanks 22:12:57 fe[nl]ix: yes, minsky, mccarthy 22:13:40 fahlman, winston 22:14:11 knight 22:14:21 tried the evil circular code example in http://bc.tech.coop/blog/051228.html -- works in sbcl interpreted, crashes the function compile in compiled mode (control stack exaustion) 22:19:22 actually why can't the compiler handle that with just a jmp command? does it get tripped up in trying to optimize? 22:19:24 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:19:34 <_3b> it probably doesn't bother to detect it 22:19:47 <_3b> since as noted, it isn't valid code 22:20:05 well, yeah :P still fun that it works at all though 22:20:58 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:21:06 _ace4016_ [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:22:18 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:22:21 -!- jyujin [n=mdeining@82.113.106.164] has quit [] 22:25:27 drewc: i came across a message from rg in 2002 that seemed particularly odd in light of BB and related stuff. it makes me wonder if my sanity-ometer is just heavily calibrated to PCL-ish, Norvig-ish style... 22:26:12 basically something like "until i went to google, i thought people who didn't see CL's greatness were just stupid" 22:26:42 *Xach* wonders what rgcode circa 1995-2002 looked like 22:27:16 Xach: that statement seems to allow several different continuations 22:28:47 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:24 *Xach* tries to find the original again 22:29:36 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:31:46 /join #smuglispweenies 22:31:51 oops 22:31:53 Xach: for those whose sanity-ometer tilts towards the graham-ish, i could imagine BB might seem sane. I'm of the opinion that if you are spending your time solving minor perceived language-level issues, you're doing it wrong. 22:32:40 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:46 Verbosity is a positive attribute as long as it doesn't distract from the text. 22:33:04 what's wrong with this? (lambda (x) (not (equal (if (evenp x) x) nil)) 22:33:07 BB? 22:33:23 Bigshot_, how is it not working as expected? 22:33:28 (lambda (x) 22:33:30 (not (equal (if (evenp x) x) nil)) x) 22:33:39 how do you do like a "one-liner" with clisp from unix -- i mean can you do something like "clisp -x (+ 5 3)" 22:33:44 i only want even numbers to be printed Captain_Thunder 22:33:52 & have it feed you "8" 22:34:11 And you want that function to return the number if it's even, nil otherwise? 22:34:21 isismelting: not sure, check the manual for clisp. sbcl have --eval and --script, and i'm sure there is similar for clisp. 22:34:28 Captain_Thunder: i don't want nil to appear in my list 22:34:51 We need more context, how do you wanna use that function? 22:35:15 input is a list '(1 2 3 4 5 6) and mapcar is used to traverse thought it using lambda 22:35:21 <_3b> isismelting: you example works here (aside from shell issues with #\( ) 22:35:27 s/thought/through 22:35:30 Oh, so you want to remove the odd numbers? 22:35:34 Bigshot_: that's a very verbose way to write (oddp x) 22:35:35 yeah 22:35:41 (remove-if #'oddp '(1 2 3 4 5 6)) 22:36:03 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 22:36:26 Captain_Thunder: how to correct my verbose way so that it works? 22:36:50 _3b -- maybe it's shell issues that i don't understand -- do i need to type things differently, put a quote somewhere or something? 22:37:05 -!- JosefAssad [n=josef@1385158256.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:37:08 Bigshot_: by substituting simplier equivalent expressions. 22:37:10 <_3b> isismelting : clisp -q -x "(+ 5 3)" 22:37:13 wait, what's "BB" ? 22:37:16 JosefAssad [n=josef@1385158256.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:37:17 You just want to write your own version of oddp? 22:37:20 Bigshot_: (if (evenp x) x) <=> (evenp x) 22:37:34 (equal P nil) <=> (not P) 22:37:40 (not (not P)) <=> P 22:37:47 thank you _3b! i don't know why i had such a hard time figuring out how to do something to simple. 22:37:49 (lambda (x) (P x)) <=> (function P) 22:38:02 hefner: some weird macro 22:38:03 Therefore your lambda is (function evenp). 22:38:14 <_3b> clhs evenp 22:38:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_evenpc.htm 22:38:23 -!- ferada [n=user@e179235054.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:39:46 hefner: http://www.flownet.com/ron/lisp/rg-utils.lisp <--- search in this file 22:39:54 that line could make it into the obfuscated lisp contest 22:39:55 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:40:16 Xach: BB? 22:40:44 ah 22:40:47 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:41:02 oh, funny, I can think of at least three lispers to abbreviate as "rg" 22:41:03 minion: BB? 22:41:03 BB: search for macro "BB" in http://www.flownet.com/ron/lisp/rg-utils.lisp 22:41:21 richard greenblatt 22:41:56 binding block, looked at that 22:41:56 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:41:58 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:42:03 I think richard gabriel is commonly abbreviated rpg 22:42:04 richard greenblatt! no, richard gabriel! no? oh, ron garret! 22:42:11 richard P gabriel 22:42:38 yeah, yeah. 22:42:49 there is some paper from RG about his NASA stuff 22:42:56 although googling for that might turn up several role playing games or rocket propelled grenades 22:43:12 I found his language comparison a bit 'dubious', though 22:43:45 the rg-utils is on Lisp on LSD 22:44:09 sounds high 22:44:25 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:06 sounds like something that gives interesting withdrawal effects 22:45:32 *p_l* was told once of rather interesting long-term withdrawal effects of LSD 22:45:46 isn't the arc source code actually looking all like this? 22:45:59 P_l: I suspect you were lied to. 22:46:50 lispm, looking like what? 22:47:07 like the code in rg-utils.lis 22:47:09 p 22:47:40 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:47:42 from time to time I have to grab my copy of AMOP to get back on track 22:48:10 hefner: by the amounts of drugs that person has in her bloodstream, it's possible that she simply got interesting case of mixing them up 22:48:45 well, actually I the lispm sources have more shocking stuff than rg-utils.lisp 22:48:51 hefner: basically, she got high during exam just like on LSD, despite not taking it for some time :P 22:49:00 like whoppers over three screens long 22:49:50 pjb: can you write your version of it so that it removes "nil" from list? 22:50:26 Bigshot_, why do you wanna remove nil from a list? 22:50:37 just for fun and for practice 22:50:44 remove-if and remove-if-not don't leave any extra nils left over, if that's what you're worried about. 22:51:08 I'd recommend reading SICP, it teaches you how to think about problems like that. 22:52:37 Bigshot_: (remove nil list) 22:52:42 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:55 Bigshot_: (remove-if-not (function evenp) list) 22:53:09 If you want to remove things, why would you call mapcar? 22:53:29 pjb, he wants to learn recursion, he doesn't actually have a need for accomplishing the tasks. 22:53:34 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:53:51 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:24 bavardage [n=bavardag@87.115.40.112.plusnet.pcl-ag01.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:27 with cl-irc 22:56:33 how do I do a /me does something 22:56:34 message 22:57:26 bavardage: look at beirc and see what it does. 22:57:28 /me does something 22:57:30 *pjb* does something 22:57:33 beirc? 22:57:51 minion: tell bavardage about beirc 22:57:52 bavardage: please see beirc: beirc is a CLIM IRC client Application using the cl-irc library as a backend, initially written by Gilbert Baumann, now maintained by Dave Murray and others. http://www.cliki.net/beirc 22:58:04 oh kk 22:58:05 ty 22:58:11 ywlcm 22:58:53 tmbg? 22:59:34 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:01:49 fellow hunchentoot users, how do you organize your static files with your source code files? 23:02:39 I've been keeping the static files under /var/www/[website] and the source in my home dir, but now I'm maintaining two separate repos and I don't have a simple way to rollback versions. 23:03:08 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:04:25 i've only used it very little, but how is your setup? do you have apache or somesuch in front? 23:06:13 lighttpd 23:08:39 does anyone use lisp with php? 23:09:18 well, i've generally have a development directory and a production directory. everything that is running is going in the production directory. i develop and make changes in the dev-dir. once changes are made and are working i just backup my production dir, and copy my dev-dir and off we go. 23:10:05 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:10:34 isismelting: that sounds odd. i pretty much had no chooice but to either go with lisp and/or php. i explicitly choose lisp so i didnt have to bother with php. ;) 23:10:39 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r11gz66.net.upc.cz] has quit ["GNU is *indeed* No UNIX!"] 23:10:58 hypno: I guess one concern is that the lisp source files are not at all accessed by the webserver, so it doesn't make sense for me to put them in with the static files under /var/www/ 23:11:59 isismelting: I guess that if some of the code refers through some RPC to other, you can meet such combinations... 23:12:02 and I don't think it makes sense to distinguish between static files that are currently used by hunchentoot and ones that are used by lighttpd. 23:12:21 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0EDE.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:12:31 by "used" I mean embedded in the html or linked from it. 23:12:34 well really i just want web servers to run .lisp files 23:12:51 anfairch` [n=user@nat/microsoft/x-f1558f0c8e5ba4cc] has joined #lisp 23:13:03 isismelting: CGI will work. 23:13:59 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.228.29] has joined #lisp 23:14:07 my php file is a function called "lisp-it" with variable "$lispcode" then i do * system ('clisp -q -x "' . $lispcode . '"'); * 23:14:33 OMG 23:14:34 it feels dirty and wrong for some reason 23:14:51 Heh, I've done stuff like that in the past too. :-) 23:14:52 <_3b> the PHP part should be ebnough to cause that :p 23:14:58 well, is $lispcode not checked, we all know what happends. :D 23:15:17 it's only me giving the $lispcode 23:15:35 isismelting: why not put the lisp code in a lisp file and execute that file instead? 23:15:35 not that i'm not dumb enough to break something anyways - i am 23:15:44 <_3b> can't you just run a lisp web server or something? 23:15:59 hypno: i don't remember but give me a second and i will (long programming bender) 23:16:24 what's the meaning of code contains a dotted list, ending with X 23:17:04 Bigshot_: please paste an example 23:17:42 <_3b> destructuring of some sort maybe? depends on where in the code 23:17:47 hypno - i did that here ( http://www.meerkat.cc/eliza ) and that feels dirty too 23:18:18 is there some way i can do my web applications in lisp without ending up feeling like some kind of whore 23:18:45 isismelting: well, why not just use CGI then? either that, or run your own lisp webserver. 23:19:31 hypno: i guess my next project is figuring how to install a lisp webserver on my host from jailshell 23:20:15 isismelting: well, it is arguably easier to get CGI going, but it is also way more primitive. it has the added benefit of beeing very stable though. 23:20:26 Bigshot_ pasted "what's wrong with this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82881 23:20:40 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:21:41 benny [n=benny@i577A0B36.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:21:43 Bigshot_: first one, the whole lambda can be replaced by #'evenp 23:22:05 hypno - what i'm ultimately trying to do is cross a simple texty wikiweb-like interface with an interactive chatbot like eliza -- do you think that will end up too messy with CGI? 23:22:17 piso_ [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:17 Bigshot_: second one, remove-if takes a test as second argument, i.e. a function of one argument which returns t or nil 23:22:29 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:22:29 Bigshot_: you likely want (remove nil list) 23:22:33 Bigshot: check-even-list(y) 23:22:39 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 23:22:41 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@pool-72-72-99-62.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:22:43 is this Lisp or what? 23:22:52 isismelting: this "interactive chatbot" is written in? 23:23:06 cl 23:24:27 isismelting: oh, it depends on how complicated this thing is i guess, and if you need fancy and new stuff. otherwise i think it should be doable and rather "nice". it's also highly educational. :) 23:24:37 check-even-list is also a name that says nothing 23:24:48 i see like the small texty-wiki on the left and to its right is an eliza-like thing i'll adapt so you can say "are there a lot of pages that mention fishing" or "how many times does the word sex appear in the same article with the word monkey" 23:25:16 it is more like REPLACE-ODD-NUMBERS-WITH-NIL 23:25:46 isismelting: if you have already done this eliza program in clisp, etc, i would say you will end up with a nicer program in clisp/cgi than with php and clisp at least. 23:25:50 serichsen: how can i make a list out of "check-even-list"? 23:26:11 (check-even-list y) 23:26:30 serichsen annotated #82881 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82881#1 23:27:04 remove-if-odd 23:27:06 -!- piso_ is now known as gnoo 23:27:09 hypno - thanks for the chat, i think it'll be best done in clisp/cgi after 'saying' it all 'out loud' etc 23:27:17 isismelting: a trick i use is to make a dump, and then in my cgi-script i have something like, #!/usr/local/bin/clisp -q -E ISO-8859-1 -M site.mem, and (start-site) and off it goes. :) 23:27:27 keep-even 23:27:46 hehe funny 23:28:00 wonderful 23:28:07 isismelting: that way you can (compile) all your source code, and push in whatever else data you might have in just one .mem and have one cgi-script rendering the entire thing, heh. 23:28:36 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 23:28:39 serichsen: i want to do that using mapcar is it possibel? 23:29:07 that's what i was trying to do with my index.php -- i gave it a "mode" environmental variable rather than have an "edit.php" and "save.php" and etc -- everything in one neatly-packaged file 23:29:08 Bigshot_: mapcar returns a list of the same length as the input list 23:29:18 oh did i mention i already wrote the wiki in php? 23:29:29 -!- bavardage [n=bavardag@87.115.40.112.plusnet.pcl-ag01.dyn.plus.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:30:17 isismelting: and if it is slow for some reason, you can compile in fastcgi support and increase speed many orders of magnitude (and that generally works without modifications to the script) :) 23:30:22 twice today actually. ok clisp & cgi is the answer. i closed my php reference and i already feel less dirty 23:30:51 Bigshot_: so, the sensible answer is "no", even though you can certainly come up with a convoluted way 23:31:00 -!- Adlai [n=user@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["out"] 23:31:16 (defun foo (l) (mapcar (lambda (e) (when (evenp e) e)) l)) 23:31:26 isismelting: try weblocks with cl-prevalence. Though clisp not having threads rules out either clisp, or anything like hunchentoot :P 23:31:38 (defun bar (l) (remove nil (foo l))) 23:32:17 excellent. hypno -- you understand what the project is now -- do you forsee any other problems i am going to run into where it might save me some time/misery if you filled me in now 23:32:28 Bigshot_: a bad example would be (remove nil (mapcar (lambda (x) (if (evenp x) x)) list)) 23:32:53 I can't believe that I actually wrote that out 23:33:00 p_l - thank you, i was considering hunchentoot, and i will check out those other options. 23:33:31 serichsen: lol 23:33:38 <_3b> (mapcon (lambda (a) (when (evenp (car a)) (list (car a)))) list) ? 23:34:03 isismelting: i wrote the ALU cliki using UCW and rucksack, both are worth checking out. 23:34:28 drewc: could publish source of it? 23:34:43 isismelting: this approach gives you stability mainly. it works on odd obscure platforms, like netbsd. however, i think you will have an easier time with hunchentoot or allegroserve if you just want the application going. i'll suggest you try to kill the server with ab/etc before you put it in production tho. 23:34:44 (loop for e in l when (evenp e) collect e) 23:35:12 -!- _ace4016_ is now known as ace4016 23:35:31 p_l: yeah, for sure. 23:35:42 ace4016, are you in #gamedev too? 23:35:50 hypno - i don't feel any rush to get something running -- then i'd have nothing to do or whine about. 23:36:10 Captain_Thunder, on afternet 23:36:18 :D 23:36:20 p_l: if you remind me next week, i'll clean up the code and throw in on cl-net :) 23:36:34 hypno - has anybody done this already somewhere - combined a simple wiki with an eliza-ish tour guide? 23:37:01 it seems like a good idea that i won't be able to do because i'm an idiot 23:37:12 <_3b> #gamedev+#lisp types feel free to join #lispgames :) 23:37:53 isismelting: well, i /was/ in a rush when i come up with that solution. it was highly commercial enterprise so i played it safe and used what i knew would work and never crash. if you have the time and this isn't all that important, you are better of with hunchentoot or portable allegroserve or some other framework. 23:38:16 isismelting: AI-assisted programs are not a new idea, but you have to design it well. We don't want another MS Paperclip 23:38:35 ^ 23:38:57 I'd prefer a well-written search engine over a tour guide. 23:39:07 isismelting: i essentially wrote my own very little framework ontop of this cgi thing. that's where the "educational" part comes in. you have many options. :) 23:39:35 lol, paperclip 23:39:39 p_l: or, god-forbid, another ALICE. 23:39:58 ALICE? 23:40:13 name rings a bell, but I can't recall exactly what 23:40:20 richard wallace's AIML thing 23:40:29 the "AI" that looks like html 23:41:19 and that bitch ALICE won't say "I love you" because wallace knows if you're talking to her you're lonely and a loser 23:41:21 -!- plage [n=user@58.186.146.148] has left #lisp 23:42:07 isismelting: looks like sensible thing to do ;-) 23:42:12 really though, the reason learner-elizas or alice bots are not interesting is that their databases don't have enough fuzzy connections 23:42:48 if eliza's "brain" can link ideas together based on the contents of a wiki, she might be intuitive, even creative. 23:50:19 serichsen pasted "Entry for Convoluted Lisp Contest" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82883 23:52:59 commmmodo [n=commmmod@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 23:53:56 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 23:56:15 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 23:58:37 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Success] 23:59:04 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit []