00:00:38 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-132-156.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:54 pkhuong: maybe they decreased the update interval 00:01:12 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-131-126.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:01:27 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:01:31 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-131-126.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:22 is there an easy way to M (1 N) 2d arrays into a (M N) 2d array? 00:04:39 to put* 00:05:18 fe[nl]ix: 2 days 00:05:52 -!- Captain_Away [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 00:06:40 leo2007: create a displaced vector for each of the input arrays, then supply them as the :initial-contents for the new array 00:07:39 kpreid, you can't just specify the M 2d arrays as the :initial-contents? 00:08:44 no, because :initial-contents is sequences 00:09:28 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 00:10:59 M is very large > 10000 00:11:48 leo2007: all the more reason not to cons an initial contents list. 00:12:15 fe[nl]ix: also, ITYM increased ;) 00:12:31 pkhuong: indeed :) 00:12:58 kpreid: do you mean create just one displaced vector for all of the 1 by N arrays? 00:13:09 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-60-98.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:13:14 I have not used this :displace... in make-array 00:15:51 leo2007: no, displacement is 1:1 00:16:01 for each (1 N) array create a (1) array displaced to it 00:16:14 er, not (1) but (N) 00:16:19 place all of those displaced-arrays in a sequence 00:16:26 that still creates a new object for each array, doesn't it? 00:16:33 yes, but it doesn't copy the contents 00:16:53 oh, very large M 00:17:25 M represents the path in my Monte Carlo simulation, and it can go extremely large 00:17:38 10000 is probably the smallest 00:18:02 how large is N? 00:18:03 N is quite small only < 1000 00:18:05 is N fixed? 00:18:21 Inside the function both are fixed 00:18:27 M by N 00:19:14 I would then try two methods 00:19:21 1. just write your own copy loop 00:20:05 2. create just *two* displaced arrays, one to the target and one to each source in succession (use ADJUST-ARRAY to redisplace) and use REPLACE to do a copy 00:20:52 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:53 how are the input arrays stored, in a list? 00:21:11 #2 will be faster if the implementation has some block-copy magic in REPLACE 00:22:18 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-188-098-206-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:22:20 dalton [n=user7994@187.35.194.60] has joined #lisp 00:22:33 serichsen: there's no input array, input only gives dimensions 00:23:40 then how does the function creating the new array get access to the (1 N) arrays? 00:23:56 if your function doesn't get any data, then you can just (make-array (M N)), no? 00:24:08 Adlai: that is inside a loop 00:24:33 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:24:37 minion: paste 00:24:38 paste: lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations 00:24:55 hm, a code paste is probably a good idea... 00:25:04 leo2007: maybe you could avoid producing a (1 N) array to start with. 00:25:16 yes 00:25:30 leo2007 pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82729 00:25:41 that's what I am working on 00:25:46 if you create the (M N) array ahead of time, you could then send a displaced array to the (1 N) array-generating code 00:25:55 yes, what Adlai said. 00:26:14 and you can use adjust-array to change the displacement offset 00:26:15 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 00:26:35 ok, you should change the form that 'nu gets 'let to 00:26:42 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 00:27:02 you want to make-array displaced-to cov 00:27:34 no 00:28:05 why? 00:28:05 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 00:28:06 'result' 00:28:30 oh is result the final (M N) matrix? 00:28:31 at the moment result is 1 by N 00:28:59 but actually I want to put all the 1 by N together, that is the real result I am after 00:29:07 yes 00:30:12 sorry result is N x 1 00:30:22 ok, so in the initial let (line 9), you should define the array which will hold the eventual result 00:30:32 i.e., have it defined before anything else in your code 00:30:35 then transpose to 1 by N 00:31:14 why can't they just be vectors of length N? why 1xN? 00:31:43 Adlai: that's from the matrix operations 00:31:51 they return matrix 00:31:54 2d arrays 00:33:23 hm 00:34:15 so I guess for each "row", make a displaced vector, and then loop over the generated 1xN and move each value into the vector. 00:34:21 b/c it's displaced, it'll go into the final array. 00:34:47 although, at this point, it might be easier to just set references in the final array directly 00:36:33 Adlai: could you help put that into an annotation? 00:36:53 I am entirely new to this displace-to thingie 00:37:08 I'll try, I've only ever used it once. 00:37:22 clhs make-array 00:37:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm 00:37:40 yeah, I am reading that too 00:38:00 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:49 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 00:39:14 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:40:50 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 00:41:14 I am using the cl-mathstats package and there is this function list-2d-array to convert 2d into list 00:42:18 hm 00:42:28 Adlai: any success? 00:42:32 for a (1 N) array, what list structure would it produce? 00:42:49 (working on it...) 00:43:03 This is very strange 00:43:09 (1 N) can be transposed to (N 1) 00:43:33 the comments on that function says ;;; Convert a 2d array into a list of lists of the elements 00:44:58 for (1 N) it will be '((....)) 00:45:58 (N 1) '((..) (..) ...) 00:47:28 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 00:48:05 spradnyesh [n=spradnye@117.192.8.113] has joined #lisp 00:48:14 -!- spradnyesh [n=spradnye@117.192.8.113] has left #lisp 00:51:07 what are those inputs? M seems to be the number of samples, SO, r, sigma are never used in the function, N seems to be the size of the samples, T1 is perhaps some sort of time 00:52:41 the only way I see for actual data to enter the function is #'cholesky 00:53:26 but that is just decomposition 00:53:29 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-131-126.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:53:48 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-214-225.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 00:54:20 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:55:44 I also have no idea how the formula presented in the docstring correlates to anything in the function 00:55:59 serichsen, I don't think the function is complete. 00:56:08 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483FA3C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:56:45 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 00:57:17 serichsen: not yet, cause I haven't finished the function 00:59:10 if after the last loop, result is an m by n matrix, the rest is quite trivial to do 01:00:47 serichsen: the doc-string is not quite complete just like the function, bascially I am create M paths of Wiener process 01:01:27 with each path falls into one of the M strata (area) of the p.d.f 01:01:57 N is time step 01:05:34 dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 01:10:56 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:41 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has quit [] 01:12:10 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 01:15:43 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-4ddc580d4ec4f90b] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:19:06 BrianRice [n=water@c-24-18-248-252.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:00 WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:41 Adlai annotated #82729 "displaced arrays" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82729#1 01:20:52 argh, incomplete 01:21:08 Hello, CFFI question tonight: If I use (with-foreign-object ..) to create a closure, will it ever be garbage collected? 01:21:13 finishing up, will annotate the complete version momentarily 01:22:42 Adlai annotated #82729 "displaced arrays" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82729#2 01:23:00 leo2007, that should be complete 01:23:15 Adlai: many thanks 01:23:51 after the dotimes form, mxn has all the values in it 01:25:06 leo2007 annotated #82729 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82729#3 01:25:45 Adlai: I was working on my own version, but do you known why it is not mapped to result in #3? 01:26:08 *Adlai* checks 01:26:17 is there a lisp standardization process? (are people working on improving CL) 01:26:36 -!- Wombat2 [n=willy@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:26:37 minion: tell etate about cltl3 01:26:38 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``cltl3''. 01:26:40 hm 01:26:57 http://ilc2009.scheming.org/node/48 01:27:16 etate, check out that link. 01:27:25 Adlai: thanks 01:28:15 Adlai: do you want me to paste the whole thing? 01:28:49 I hope they work some more libraries into cltl3. 01:29:06 probably. however, one thing that strikes me as fishy already is that you are using both displacement and initial-contents in a make-array. 01:29:07 Just a standardized FFI would be nice, but we could also use threads, sockets, etc... 01:29:27 Captain_Thunder, I think they want to standardize library APIs 01:29:41 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:29:48 _ace4016_ [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:29:52 Which APIs? 01:29:59 ie, any library for X must have functions and macros P Q R and S that take arguments etc etc 01:30:01 Adlai: i see 01:30:07 clhs says no on this 01:30:08 mm I don't know, I'm not part of the effort :) 01:30:10 -!- _ace4016_ is now known as ace4016 01:30:44 Well, that doesn't seem all that useful to be honest, since you can't force library writers to adhere to those standards. 01:30:46 My guess would be stuff like streams, sockets, threads, FFI 01:31:01 (You can't force implementation writers to adhere either, but there's a greater expectation...) 01:31:16 well many implementations include their own libraries for FFI, sockets, etc 01:31:26 if an implementation's libraries were conforming 01:31:27 ie, 01:31:35 Ok, that makes sense. 01:32:05 (sockets:connect "http://foo.com" 8080) worked on any implementation 01:32:20 actually that would probably be just "foo.com" 01:32:26 *Adlai* is not a networking wizard 01:32:29 I suppose it's not really the existence of current libraries, but the completeness. 01:32:37 well and consistency... 01:32:48 eg, no SBCL threads on Windows, CFFI doesn't support callbacks on various platforms, etc. 01:33:05 leo2007: where do you get the matrix operations from? 01:33:30 right. But even the stuff that virtually every implementation provides, is all in different packages and with idiosyncratic APIS 01:33:34 *APIs 01:33:41 Yeah. 01:34:07 this is the kind of standardization which I think is good. 01:34:22 Everyone loves to standardize! 01:34:24 oh, and also MOP 01:34:35 I'm pretty sure that any standardization would include MOP 01:35:09 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:37:13 is there vendor support for this process? 01:37:21 no clue. 01:37:23 there doesn't seem to be much info on the page you linked :> 01:37:29 and its all i can find 01:37:35 there's a mailing list... 01:37:46 etate: what do you mean by "vendor support" ? 01:38:05 fe[nl]ix: monetary goodness 01:38:32 very unlikely 01:38:42 etate: if you mean whether vendors like LispWorks or Franz help that project or are actively working towards possible future conformance with cltl3, then afaik no 01:39:03 serichsen: cl-mathstats 01:39:52 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:40:06 Wombat1 [n=willy@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:30 -!- joswig [n=joswig@e177154116.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 01:40:34 p_l: it doesn't look developed enough for that yet, I just mean support from people who can I guess 01:40:48 I should say "people who can (TM)" 01:42:30 maybe we should get PG involved :> 01:42:54 etate: funny 01:43:00 the destiny of allegro and lispworks is obsolescence and irrelevance 01:43:07 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:23 an opinion I will hold until they give me a copy for free 01:43:54 Adlai: problem resolved 01:44:09 nice! :) 01:44:23 fe[nl]ix: what, it might take 6 years but at least we'll have shiny new macros to play with! 01:44:46 *etate* is excited 01:45:08 *Adlai* wishes PG was a bigger CL fan. 01:46:38 hefner: they give you free copies, they just have some strange limitations 01:46:42 funny how it was PG that made me finally go for CL 01:46:53 well, PG and Kenny 01:47:07 p_l: instead of what? 01:47:10 oh dear. 01:47:18 Kenny tries his hardest to drive people away from Lisp, IMHO. 01:47:33 PG didn't make me go to Lisp, since I knew about it beforehand. 01:47:39 But he made me think about it more. 01:48:14 Wombat2 [n=willy@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:21 Captain_Thunder: why do you hold this precarious opinion of king kenny? 01:48:42 I dunno, some of his posts are just... weird. 01:48:43 -!- Wombat1 [n=willy@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:48:57 weird == scary 01:49:01 yawn 01:49:10 Captain_Thunder: some of them? I thought it was his intention to be weird 01:49:20 He succeeds :) 01:49:22 etate, anybody whose used Lisp at work would probably want deep down inside to be the only company using Lisp... 01:49:37 heh 01:49:52 exceptions are people like PG, who don't need to work :D 01:50:10 Well, he didn't tell anyone he was using Lisp while he worked at Viaweb. 01:50:32 In fact, he let users code their sites using Lisp macros, but went out of his way to call them something else. 01:51:09 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@28.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:51:22 serichsen annotated #82729 "refactor" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82729#4 01:51:51 Adlai: I used CL at work, my ex company didn't like that very much 01:52:18 leo2007: that's untested, and I made some assumption on what you want to do 01:52:39 Adlai: even though the code was shorter and more efficient, oh well 01:53:06 serichsen: thanks a lot 01:53:30 etate, I had/have the same problem. However, I can use a dynamic language so I'm happy... could be worse (with-shudder 'java) 01:54:01 Adlai: what language are you being forced to use? 01:54:40 Adlai: my ex-company let me use scheme in the end, because it had a cool open source implementation (plt-scheme) 01:54:42 I want to form another list B based on A, but the function I am using also requires the position of the element 01:54:58 I think that too many people believe that there are too few developers available proficient in CL 01:55:08 that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy 01:55:17 I basically had a choice of any language that my boss will have an easy time finding another hacker to fix my code when I'm gone. 01:55:40 there's no risk of me being fired here, there's just a risk of me not being available when there's a bug and they need immediate results. 01:55:48 (mapcar (lambda (w) (* w i)) '(1 2 3 4)) 01:56:00 Adlai: so you're programming in python? 01:56:03 where i is the index of the item 01:56:14 leo2007: ah 01:56:32 etate, Ruby, which imco is better than Python. 01:56:35 i.e. if function is applied on 2 it should return (* 2 1) 01:56:50 leo2007: you can loop a variable and a sequence at the same time 01:57:24 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:57:48 ? 01:57:51 leo2007: (loop for i from 0 and w in '(1 2 3 4) collect (* w i)) 01:58:10 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:58:11 ok 01:58:15 ^H^H... what he said 01:58:23 but mapcar won't do in this case, right? 01:58:33 you can use that too. 01:59:01 no, the mapcar concept is rather that the subcalculations are independent 01:59:14 luis: no iterate love? 01:59:24 leo2007: (mapcar (let ((i -1)) (lambda (w) (* w (incf i)))) '(1 2 3 4)) 01:59:31 mapcar is defined to run in order IIRC 01:59:54 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 01:59:55 like scheme for-each and map-in-order, and unlike scheme map 02:00:00 oh, ok 02:00:23 then it's just my perception 02:02:40 (map-fn 'list '* (scan '(1 2 3 4)) (scan-range :start 0)) 02:02:44 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:04:14 dlowe: :from not :start 02:04:52 hmm. that's not in clhs 02:04:53 fe[nl]ix: I thought just the same, but... http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node350.html 02:05:28 hm. on the other hand, the example uses :from 02:05:29 boo 02:05:30 spradnyesh1 [n=spradnye@117.192.10.25] has joined #lisp 02:05:44 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-125-21-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:48 dlowe: well, the actual implementation of series uses :from 02:06:31 fe[nl]ix: I pretty much always check documentation before posting example code in here, lest I be flayed alive :p 02:06:49 heh 02:07:52 -!- spradnyesh1 [n=spradnye@117.192.10.25] has left #lisp 02:09:19 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:10:22 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:11:15 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:13:13 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:14:07 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 02:14:41 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 02:16:46 Swords2 [n=kohii@pool-71-112-25-59.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:50 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:17:51 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:19 Hello, why does nconc add one item to the end of a list (variable) and not a second? 02:18:41 Code example? 02:18:49 hi all. Is there a reason why mop:class-slots returns "There is no applicable method for the generic function" 02:18:54 (in sbcl) 02:19:09 (setf l1 nil) (nconc l1 '(0)) (nconc l1 '(1)) 02:19:10 related: calling sb-mop:finalize-inheritance also chunks 02:19:29 (with the same message) 02:19:32 WarWeasle, nconc fails when the first arg is nil 02:19:38 clhs nconc 02:19:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nconc.htm 02:19:46 (sb-mop:class-slots (find-class 'integer)) as opposed to (sb-mop:class-slots 'integer) ? 02:19:47 Moe111: depends what you're calling it with. 02:20:22 WarWeasle, to be precise, it doesn't modify the list supplied as the first argument, when that list is NIL. 02:20:27 this chokes: 02:20:28 (defclass test () 02:20:28 ((some-slot 02:20:28 :accessor some-slot))) 02:20:29 (sb-mop:class-slots 'test) 02:20:37 Moe111: see my message 02:20:50 Ah! 02:20:52 thanks. 02:20:57 I am checking it out 02:21:07 GACK! I even read the CLHS... Thanks. Is there a function I can use to always add an item to the end? 02:21:14 gotcha, it works. 02:21:29 how come I can't refer to the class name as a symbol? 02:21:41 Well, in all implementations, nconc does that for every value but NIL 02:21:44 WarWeasle: no, there are no lists, only CONSes and NIL. 02:22:12 If you want to deal with a nil case as well, use a macro. 02:22:13 You can wrap that in a struct or class. 02:22:54 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 02:23:34 Can I do a local-recursive call to get the end item and (SETF the (CDR ... ? 02:24:20 That's what nconc does, but it won't work when the list you want to nconc onto is NIL. 02:24:33 So the answer is Yes, if you feel like rewriting nconc... 02:24:41 Adlai: Oh, I get it. I just make a special case for nil. 02:24:47 * nconc doesn't setf the cdr, though. 02:24:56 Well, depends what you mean. 02:25:06 You can't make a special case for nil within another function. 02:25:10 WarWeasle: note that you will need a macro in that case 02:25:11 (if (null l1) (setf l1 ... 02:25:19 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit ["bye"] 02:25:34 The function would return your new list, but the list (actually null) passed to the function would remain null. 02:25:43 WarWeasle: how about using append instead of nconc? 02:25:50 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 02:25:52 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:25:52 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2F360.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:25:54 luis, he's trying to destructively modify the list. 02:26:15 WarWeasle, the best thing to do is probably to just use (setf x (nconc x y)) 02:26:21 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:26:44 If you want, write a macro around that.... you could even shadow nconc, and call the macro that. 02:26:56 luis: That would work. Perhaps I doing preemptive optimizition? 02:27:06 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 02:27:18 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 02:27:35 I think that using nconc to add items to a list isn't premature optimization... 02:27:43 Adlai: Using (SETF should do the trick without slowing me down. 02:28:04 yep, and you could do that everywhere you used nconc originally. 02:28:13 (unless you ever RELIED on nconc's behaviour wrt nil) 02:28:27 Adlai: right, because if you want speed, you don't append to the end of a list 02:28:32 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:56 lol true -- you keep a pointer to the last cdr :D 02:29:18 (a trick I learned by macroexpanding LOOP) 02:29:24 or append to the beginning 02:29:36 I'm making a vertex array... I really should just add the last cons cell as a slot. 02:29:57 array? what lists are doing here? 02:30:12 An openGL vertex-array. 02:30:21 shielding WarWeasle from the root of all evil. 02:30:39 But I'm keeping the data in lisp until I render it. 02:30:48 clhs make-array 02:30:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm 02:31:01 Lisp has arrays too 02:31:27 if what you're doing really involves arrays, you should probably use them from the start. 02:31:50 (unless you're doing a lot of pushing and popping to the array) 02:32:12 I hadn't thought of that. 02:32:18 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:32:29 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:43 Adlai: Why shouldn't you use arrays if you're doing a lot of pushing and popping? 02:32:45 But my vertexes are separate objects from the array. 02:33:08 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:33:20 I'm using the blender python API as a guide. 02:33:24 -!- Swordsman [n=kohii@pool-71-112-25-59.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:34:06 Quetzalcoatl_, I always got the impression that exuberant use of vector-push and vector-push-extend was an indicator that you should be using truly dynamic data structures 02:34:34 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:34:40 I take it as an indicator that I'm accumulating into an array 02:34:45 A vertex could be shared across multiple meshes which can't really be reused...unless I add all the points to a giant array. 02:34:53 WarWeasle, an array element can be anything... 02:34:59 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-217-97.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:52 WarWeasle: you don't have any issues putting them in an array that don't exist when putting them in a list 02:36:51 (maybe you do, but they're independent of the fact that you're dealing with vertexes) 02:37:06 hefner: You are right. I'm not using the right data structure to hold them. 02:37:50 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:03 I just care about their position when I get around to making a packed array. 02:39:03 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:39:11 If I need everyone letter of the alphabet linked to a value, should I use an alist, a plist, or a hash table? 02:39:21 every* 02:39:46 not a plist 02:39:47 bgs100: I'd use either a hash table or a 26-element vector. 02:40:10 I have an unknown number of vertexes so that just leaves a hash. 02:40:15 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-200-65.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:18 Thanks hefner Adlai 02:40:39 bgs100, if you care about speed, using a hash table will probably be best because you could use symbols as keys. 02:40:47 (thus test using #'eq) 02:40:50 bgs100, what about char-code? .. (list (char-code #\a) (char-code #\b)) => (97 98) 02:41:09 spradnyesh [n=spradnye@nat/yahoo/x-f0f2d64259678ec4] has joined #lisp 02:41:25 that'll work for unicode also (char-code #\) => 955 02:41:25 lnostdal, true, that way you don't have symbol interning overhead. 02:41:25 While we are on the topic of arrays: If I use (cffi:with-foreign-object ..) to create a closure, will it ever be garbage collected? 02:41:30 -!- ausente [n=user7994@187.35.194.60] has quit ["eject - brb"] 02:41:52 WarWeasle: that probably didn't get answered the last time you asked because, as phrased, it doesn't make sense. 02:42:36 bgs100, and code-char goes the other way around .. from value to char; (code-char (char-code #\a)) => #\a 02:42:59 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 02:43:00 WarWeasle: cffi will free the memory it allocated for the foreign object when you exit the with-foreign-object form, regardless of whether you happened to close over a pointer to it or not. 02:43:03 lnostdal, So you're saying I should use their code values as the keys? 02:43:31 Ahhhh... Ok. Is there a way to know when a closure goes out of scope? 02:43:50 wouldn't using a vector be faster for indexing with char-code than a hash table? 02:43:59 bgs100, i don't know the context .. you could use the characters themselves as keys if that's what you really want 02:44:25 bgs100, you could also write a few macros to "create" a new data structure 02:44:37 it would be a 26-element vector 02:44:41 hefner: so building closures over foreign objects doesn't really work? 02:44:47 ausente [n=user7994@187.35.194.60] has joined #lisp 02:45:03 lnostdal, I'm linking the letters of the alphabet to strings. 02:45:34 or rather, building closures with with-foreign-object doesn't 02:45:37 (lookup char) would expand to (elt (- (char-code char) (char-code #\A)) *letter-lookup-chart*) 02:45:58 bgs100, what sort of strings? .. note btw.; (string #\a) => "a" 02:46:28 serichsen: right, it's like trying to close over a special variable. you have the foreign pointer, but the memory may have already been freed. foreign objects aren't subject to lisp's GC. 02:46:36 -!- spradnyesh is now known as hawkbill 02:47:04 lnostdal, short strings, probably no longer than 2 characters at most. 02:47:54 ok, alist or hash then .. but no need to do char <-> value stuff .. characters can work as identifiers or keys themselves 02:48:12 Okay, thanks. 02:48:13 -!- ausente [n=user7994@187.35.194.60] has quit [Client Quit] 02:49:13 WarWeasle: you're storing a mesh in a hash table? *confused* 02:49:56 No, I'm considering it. But I need each object to know what number it is. 02:50:24 that could just be a slot within the object 02:50:34 WarWeasle: err, opengl should keep track of that for you? 02:50:46 But each vertex could be part of multiple meshes. 02:50:49 are you loading these meshes from somewhere (say, a 3ds file)? if you are, the file format can make a lot of these decisions for you. 02:51:02 ausente [n=user7994@187.35.194.60] has joined #lisp 02:51:15 WarWeasle: eh? you are sticking meshes together? 02:51:23 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:51:31 Nope. This is homebrew. I'm trying to keep from making copies so I can move multiple objects with fewer vertex changes. 02:51:35 bgs100, http://paste.lisp.org/display/82734 02:52:22 No, I'm just trying to create meshes programaticly. I have this sick need to see a common-lisp text/graphics/media editor. 02:52:44 WarWeasle: okay, so you're not using blender? 02:53:05 I'm using the API as a guide as to how to develop it. 02:53:31 WarWeasle: the python API? 02:53:42 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["b"] 02:53:52 -!- ausente [n=user7994@187.35.194.60] has quit [Client Quit] 02:54:09 Oh, and also, is there a function to get a key via a value? 02:54:23 WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:49 etate: Yes, I'm using the PYTHON API to guide me. 02:55:06 WarWeasle: have you considered embedding CL into blender? it would save you a lot of work :P 02:55:08 bgs100, (car (find "first letter" *storage* :key #'cdr :test #'string=)) => #\a 02:55:29 I call it qix after the old arcade game. But one person described it as 3dmacs 02:55:42 bgs100, or rassoc 02:56:17 lnostdal, okay, thanks. Just curious, is there something like that for hash? 02:56:28 If I wanted to create a 3d modeling program, that would work great. But I need lisp's ability to create data formats on the fly to create new applications without needing a file format for every new usage. 02:56:48 bgs100, nope, roll your own 02:57:02 bgs100, no, the standard solution when you want a two way hash is two hashes. 02:57:19 Okay, thanks. 02:57:42 WarWeasle: okay... i'm a bit perplexed, you need to share vertices between meshes why? 02:57:43 dalton [n=user7994@187.35.194.60] has joined #lisp 02:57:57 WarWeasle: and by "create data formats on the fly", you mean lists? 02:58:18 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:58:44 WarWeasle: the way i do it is to use a scene graph for separation / interaction between objects... 02:59:19 etate: Can you reuse vertex-arrays in opengl without resending them? 03:00:14 WarWeasle: yeah as long as you don't change the vertex count, see the nehe morph tutorial 03:00:29 (if thats what you mean) 03:00:53 etate: cool, so I can just send it once and then fire off everything else with just the indicies? 03:00:58 WarWeasle: if you want to create n vertices on the fly you'll need geometry shading 03:01:36 etate: I'm not familiar with geometry shading. 03:01:39 WarWeasle: err, you can draw any indexed vertices how you like, if thats what you mean 03:02:51 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-128-194.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:27 So I only need 1 (%gl:vertex-pointer for as many (gl:draw-elements as I want, as long as they share the vertexes. 03:03:49 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:03:54 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 03:04:00 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:04:15 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:40 Hi all. Back again. How can I determine the name of the accessor of a slot in sb-mop? 03:05:02 when I inspect the slot, I find that READER-FUNCTION is probably what I'm looking for 03:05:10 WarWeasle: as long as you point vertex-pointer to the right place in the vertex array, yeah... but i'm confused as to why you're trying to do this 03:05:15 but sb-mop:reader-method-class chokes 03:05:39 WarWeasle: if you're looking for efficiency, see VBO 03:06:06 WarWeasle: which loads your vertex data into the graphics card mem 03:06:07 etate: Oh, I thought those were going away. 03:06:11 I'm using ftype, what should be the type of function that returns nil 03:06:21 Or am I thinking display lists... 03:06:27 nil 03:06:30 WarWeasle: no, VBOs are recommended by gl3 spec... its vertex arrays and display lists which are going away 03:06:51 WarWeasle: oh and also immediate mode 03:07:17 ?? 03:07:28 ?????????????????????????????????? 03:08:19 etate: Just when I think I know how to do something, there is a better way. Are VBOs in the Red OGL book? 03:08:35 WarWeasle: I doubt it, its quite a new extension 03:08:37 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:09:03 WarWeasle: I should have the code for vbos somewhere if you're interested 03:09:13 etate: That's why... I feel dumb. I'm actually a professional programmer. 03:09:37 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 03:09:59 WarWeasle: no need to feel dumb, people rarely know much :) 03:10:10 etate: Lisp is just like driving down a road waiting for all the powerline poles to line up. 03:10:53 leo2007: (ftype (function (*) null) some-function) 03:11:06 WarWeasle: usually the problems aren't with lisp, but how you understand the problem you're trying to solve 03:11:25 etate: Yes, but I'm an elitist. That's why I'm using Lisp. 03:11:31 WarWeasle: LOL 03:11:46 WarWeasle: have you been reading paul graham? 03:11:55 I have a while ago. 03:12:12 WarWeasle: theres nothing elite about lisp, its easy 03:12:35 WarWeasle: its the problems you try to solve with it that are hard 03:12:46 (sometimes) 03:12:59 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 03:14:22 WarWeasle: in your case i recommend you check out opengl material (shaders, vertex buffer objects ...) 03:14:38 Then maybe you can help me understand my problem. I want to use the power of lisp to create a work enviroment like emacs, but where I can edit any type of data, including pictures, 3d sculptures, music, email, databases, etc, all using text as the root of all data and code and using 3d + time to display it. 03:15:09 WarWeasle: Whats wrong with emacs? :> 03:15:19 hey, neat. I redefined a structure, and slime only nagged me once for a change. I guess there are perks to riding the upgrade train after all. 03:15:31 emacs doesn't chant and dance yet :) 03:15:33 etate: I want to watch my text being chiseled out of marble. 03:16:01 etate: Or scroll across a hypersphere. 03:16:43 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:48 WarWeasle: novel goals, to be sure. but you probably should start by understanding a 3d graphics api 03:17:07 WarWeasle: otherwise it will be very difficult, and you will give up 03:17:08 speaking of emacs, I've been considering trying one of its clones written fully in CL eventually, anyone have some experience with one? 03:17:19 climacs? 03:17:24 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["gbu"] 03:17:39 that, and there at least was another one if I remember 03:17:47 hemlock? 03:17:48 etate: (soapbox "This is the *twenty-first century* I want a better interface!") 03:17:49 I thought there was a CL mode for emacs? 03:18:20 there is a CL module for elisp which makes it a bit closer to CL, but that still doesn't replace all the elisp underneath :) 03:18:46 this is the 21st century, i want less interface 03:19:01 WarWeasle: well, i can only recommend that you check out FTGL, cl-opengl, lispbuilder-sdl, vertex buffer objects, shaders, blender object exporting to begin with :> 03:19:24 moar apps plz 03:19:30 and in ten years you will have your fancy emacs 03:20:02 KDE is pretty fancy nowadays 03:20:32 stassats: No, you just want it to add value to your usage. 03:20:51 but emacs + antialiasing + envy code r font is good enough looking for me :> 03:21:24 ew. I spend too much time looking at emacs to inflict antialiasing on it. 03:21:25 etate: Yes, but I want the interface Hollywood promised me! 03:22:13 *WarWeasle* flies though a data structure that looks like a city block looking for a few bit....AND SHOOTS THEM!!!! 03:23:27 WarWeasle: if you want better graphics, trust me, check out cl-opengl and try to do some basic shaders 03:24:10 etate: I'm using cl-opengl now. I've finally gotten vertex arrays working. And I thought that was the bee's knees. 03:24:48 WarWeasle: well, they are good enough providing you use them correctly (and by that i mean that you don't confuse shared vertices with shared vertices between meshes ;)) 03:28:57 I think it's to late to learn anymore. I'm staring at the VBO page and it's looking back at me. That and Pandora is grinding NIN. 03:29:26 Pandora? 03:30:00 evening 03:30:29 Adlai: genomic music project 03:30:33 Adlai: Pandora.com. A radio station that picks what you might like based on what you have liked. 03:33:22 ah 03:34:29 Adlai: Or a secret govenment project to gain psychological profiles on large swaths of the population. Like Polybius, only fun. 03:34:49 lol 03:40:33 lvyi [n=lvs@114.255.44.132] has joined #lisp 03:47:11 WarWeasle: that's why Myspace and Facebook are for 03:47:22 :P 03:47:26 or not? 03:47:32 and the internet in general. 03:47:41 naw. 03:47:51 Internet is a pain in the ass for most governments 03:48:36 Imagine everyone communicating with encrypted data. 03:48:44 Adamant: well, they created it... 03:48:52 That would be a pain. 03:49:21 WarWeasle: isn't that already so? ssh? 03:49:24 etate: I'm looking at VBO's. This is so much better. 03:49:25 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-200-65.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:49:40 etate: them and the US computer science faculty of the 60's and 70's 03:49:40 Yes, but most people don't use it by default. 03:49:45 hefner: antialiasing might not be the best idea, but sub-pixel rendering is great 03:49:55 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-200-65.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:58 Adamant: yeah, MIT in conjunction with Hull in the UK set up a fibre optic cable 03:50:08 Adamant: and DARPA 03:50:13 What'sup p_l? 03:50:17 etate: owes more to the University of Utah 03:50:19 and DARPA 03:50:45 of course DARPA in the 60's wasn't like current DARPA 03:50:46 WarWeasle: what is up is that it's 4:50 and I should have gone to sleep 5hrs ago :D 03:51:03 amen! 03:51:09 p_l: tell me about it, my gf is going to be pissed 03:51:26 sleep is for the weak 03:51:56 but the flesh is weak 03:52:03 and the vodka is strong 03:52:07 You are on the wrong side of the ocean. It's 11:51 in beautiful Indianapolis. 03:52:26 araujo: you'll change your mind when you get Dissociative Identity/Personality Disorder from prolonged lack of sleep 03:52:38 p_l: that's an even worse hack. breaks all kind of assumptions about what you can do with things on the screen.. like scale them, or view them on someone else's monitor 03:52:41 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.193.23] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:52:47 p_l: Fight Club FTW! 03:53:01 also The Machinist?/ 03:53:11 Adamant: I was speaking from personal experience :D 03:53:14 ow 03:53:20 p_l: if we just had 200 dpi displays, things would be much simpler. 03:53:32 p_l: You have to have a personality to start with. I'm just a chinese box. 03:53:57 as much as I love sleeping... it's such a waste of time. 03:53:59 hefner: I find it quite good thing, except of course X11 did the wrong way 03:54:02 p_l, you have to drink more caffeine 03:54:15 p_l: how so? 03:54:21 Imagine if everything we did had 33%-50% more productivity... 03:54:54 Adlai: if I didn't have to sleep, I'm sure as hell not wasting my newfound free time on work 03:55:08 Try *Fukital* the new hyper-productivity pill. Now you can do more stupid in the same amount of time. 03:55:10 productivity doesn't require a bass 03:55:12 *boss 03:55:15 Python [n=mikef@pool-72-69-77-35.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:35 -!- bubble [n=mikef@pool-72-69-79-93.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Operation timed out] 03:55:35 p_l: i've had that before, dissociated from reality disorder 03:55:38 productivity could be making music, writing stories, going for a jog, etc. 03:55:57 or coding 03:56:02 that's not productivity that's screwing around 03:56:06 which I endorse 03:56:13 etate: I meant dissociative as in moments where you have completely different identity, with made-up memories that fit to the world you see 03:56:14 unfortunately, our wonderful amazing blahblah minds have been designed on top of other simpler minds and require several hours of garbage collecting each day. 03:56:23 now try marketing a Lisp that ran like that! 03:56:34 :D 03:56:38 It's called C# 03:56:39 p_l: oh, the matrix? 03:56:48 p_l: are you an agent? 03:56:55 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:56:57 hefner: As in Xft sending prerendered glyphs to X11, instead of letting "low-level driver" aka display system figure such stuff 03:57:07 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 03:57:15 anyway 03:57:22 lol 03:57:22 there is no spoon 03:57:49 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.139.173] has joined #lisp 03:57:52 you have to admit that our minds are much more like a Lisp than a C program 03:58:01 etate: I don't recall agents doing such nice things as commanding giant space task forces composed of impeller-propulsion warships with mobile suits for support 03:58:02 p_l: what difference would that make, in practice? 03:58:03 with a good dose of multithreading thrown in 03:58:15 go do your 5RM squat or deadlift max for 10 times, take as much time as you want... then try to get away with not sleeping 03:58:21 p_l: ketamine? 03:58:23 your body will lock up, literally 03:58:56 Adamant, my point is that it's unfortunate that our minds require sleep. 03:59:05 Adlai: our bodies do too 03:59:09 I really like sleeping after I'm physically worn out. 03:59:13 me too 03:59:25 hefner: application not having to fiddle with low-level data like display DPI or other stuff 04:00:21 lukjadOO7 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 04:00:26 3 days without sleep, 3 days sleeping 04:00:31 that's what real men do 04:00:36 but I don't like how after at most ~24 hours of mental activity, our minds start grinding to a halt and we have to flush them out for a few hours. 04:01:22 I'm really curious about the idea of taking a few long naps each day, but that's just too impractical in terms of the rest of the world today. 04:01:27 hefner: for example, iirc WPF "Document" widget can be printed without any additional changes on paper - WPF simply takes "specification" of what should be displayed/printed and takes care of details 04:01:40 Adlai: We don't have proper online defragmenter 04:01:44 p_l: our displays are sufficiently low-dpi that ignoring pixels tends to make things look like crap. 04:01:50 or garbage collector... 04:02:12 p_l: if a "Document" is typically a page of text, that's a bit of a special case. 04:02:31 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["Off to refactor original substrate garbage collection."] 04:03:20 hefner: however, "Document" afaik simply creates a bounding boxes for pages + restricts allowed widgets (try printing a 3D animation) 04:03:29 also we have dangling pointers... thinking of an idea, and then being unable to remember it... 04:04:07 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:04:27 Adlai: because we have RT system that has to permit dropping references in order to sustain throughput 04:04:50 "throughput"? 04:04:58 coupled with certainly not perfect long-term store retrieval 04:05:38 Adlai: working memory of humans is quite limited (famous 7±2) 04:06:03 I'd say that we have very good long-term memory because we've developed some rather nifty external hard drives... 04:06:34 xinming__ [n=hyy@125.109.72.240] has joined #lisp 04:06:35 anything from books to scraps of paper to computers 04:06:47 p_l: I'm not sure now this is relevant. Unless your computer happens to be a Vectrex, you still need a bitmapped interface to the display. 04:06:47 although yeah, we have pretty crappy RAM. 04:06:54 Adlai: we have bad memory retrieval. And I would consider it more of multi-tiered storage with small harddrive and big tape library infested with moles 04:07:10 haha 04:07:26 heh 04:07:29 i'm amazed how many unnecessary things i remember 04:07:32 Adlai: *paper* tape. shreds easily :D 04:08:02 we have a 16-byte RAM, just enough space for a handful of pointers. 04:08:19 Anything not pointed to has to be lookup up in the mole mine. 04:08:26 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 04:08:30 -!- smoofra [n=user@cthulhu.elder-gods.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:08:40 smoofra [n=user@cthulhu.elder-gods.org] has joined #lisp 04:08:56 ack what happened 04:08:58 meat computers 04:08:59 hefner: it allows for you not to care about pixels (with system taking care of it) till you really want to (there's full access to bitmap ops). 04:09:29 *hefner* has trouble with these debates because he never knows at what level of abstraction he's supposed to be arguing at. 04:09:38 -!- ShadowChild [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:09:47 Adlai: not 16byte, quite larger (I'd say on order of few gigabytes, maybe). It's just that it's quite limited with *how* it stores 04:10:00 hefner: at this point, neither do I, so call it even :D 04:10:23 (somewhere on a continuum from "theoretical best case, in a perfect world", to "we're stuck with X11, please try not to make it any worse, thx") 04:10:31 p_l, I mean the "short-term" memory... we just have a few quick references to the ideas that we've been thinking about recently. Other than those, we need to "recall" ideas. 04:11:16 and when sufficiently drunk only short-term memory works 04:11:28 storing 04:11:59 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:12:12 Practical question for a moment... 04:13:07 I'm trying to set up a system that will allow my program to respond to keystrokes in a way that's configurable at runtime. 04:13:42 (I'm trying to make a quick game using lispbuilder-sdl, but I'm trying to use good bottom-up design) 04:13:55 macros won't work for this, right? 04:14:15 xinming_1 [n=hyy@125.109.240.218] has joined #lisp 04:14:24 I think I need to use closures... or is there any way that I can make runtime-configurable macros? 04:14:45 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.250.180] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:15:04 (closures beyond (funcall (make-adder 2) 3) => 5 make my head spin) 04:15:13 you have an alist/hashtable with key->action, then you retrieve what key was pressed and do action? 04:15:25 hmm I guess that a macro could help to easily define the bindings, but the internals would still use a mapping hash table or vector most probably 04:15:27 "do action" using what, eval? 04:15:39 I don't like using eval because of the null env. 04:15:39 or funcall 04:15:47 funcall = closure 04:15:48 if it's a function, then it's FUNCTION 04:15:55 FUNCALL, i meant 04:16:43 so the basic plan is... 04:17:15 to configure a key binding, I make a closure and store it under that key in a hash/alist 04:17:59 let's not make confusion and call closure a function 04:18:22 in the sdl:with-events form, I just lookup the key pressed in the hash/alist, and apply (or funcall? any preference?) the closure 04:18:47 and I wrap both of those in macros so it's nice and lisy. 04:18:49 *lispy 04:18:49 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 04:19:06 funcall and apply are different, use what's appropriate, if functions are of no arguments, then i'd use funcall 04:19:16 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.139.173] has quit [Success] 04:19:24 stassats, what's the difference? 04:19:29 (other than the obvious) 04:19:37 obvious difference 04:23:08 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 04:25:23 -!- etate [n=etate@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has quit ["Get out of that boring IRC client! It's no good for you. Bersirc 2.2 is your answer! [ http://www.bersirc.org/ - Open Source"] 04:29:45 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:30:47 -!- xinming__ [n=hyy@125.109.72.240] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:34:40 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 04:35:08 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest19935 04:35:47 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:08 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:37:23 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.203] has joined #lisp 04:38:26 -!- Quetzalcoatl_ [n=godless@cpe-71-72-235-91.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:39:47 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 04:42:35 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:42:59 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:58 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Success] 04:46:28 I got a list, very long, how to save it to a file? 04:46:39 it is my simulation results 04:46:48 you could just print 04:47:00 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 04:47:06 but more experienced people here probably know more efficient methods. 04:47:15 (reading is slow) 04:47:57 (w-o-f (stream file :direction :output :if-exists :supersede) (w-s-i-s (print list stream))) 04:48:49 thanks 04:53:27 right! i'm really happy with the whole regexp function everyone contributed to recently. 04:53:46 -!- xinming_1 [n=hyy@125.109.240.218] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:54:18 i had a question if anyone here knew about advanced regexps, specifically the multiline support in ppcre. i wouldn't mind reading in a whole file to apply regexps in multiline fashion (sounds terrible, but its quicker than writing an event driven parser) 04:54:31 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.134.67] has joined #lisp 04:56:22 Demosthenes: you had? or you still have? 04:56:55 stassats: nope, i refined it a bit more, and i'm writing a file read in routine. 04:57:01 i got that down earlier... 04:57:14 then i noticed the multiline capability on the ppcre:scan 04:57:55 i've frequently (in perl *gasp!*) done a file dump to an array or humungoid string, and run multiline regexps in order to extract records 04:58:26 i've done that mostly with awk 04:58:32 in lisp it's just PRINT and READ 04:59:02 well, again, there's the multiline match, but i assume it works against a variable in memory 04:59:27 given read-line removes cr/lf, either i have to iterate over the file to build a giant string, or it takes a list 04:59:45 again, theres no examples... i'm still noobish enough that reading the spec doesn't help as much 05:00:12 xinming__ [n=hyy@218.73.130.211] has joined #lisp 05:00:26 wait, if you trust your input, then just use READ 05:01:05 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.203] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:01:24 *blink* i'm currently using read-line... 05:02:25 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-41-17.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:02:36 oh no, READ wants to read in lisp code. this is mainframe text 05:02:39 i'm parsing it 05:02:45 just was hoping to glob it instead of line by line 05:03:37 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.134.67] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:03:49 -!- Guest19935 is now known as lexa_ 05:04:19 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest79377 05:04:40 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 05:05:40 clhs read-sequence 05:05:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_seq.htm 05:07:42 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:08:46 hrm 05:09:35 something like (with-open-file (stream "/home/stas/foo.lisp" :element-type 'character) (read-sequence (make-array (file-length stream) :element-type 'character) stream)) 05:09:48 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 05:10:14 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.143.26] has joined #lisp 05:11:06 stassats: i like that, working in slime now ;] 05:11:29 benny [n=benny@i577A00D3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:13:02 though, file-length doesn't seem to like unicode 05:14:23 anyway, it will just create a bigger vector than needed 05:15:22 ooo! right out the box 05:15:33 -!- Guest79377 is now known as lexa_ 05:15:54 damn, tea on the laptop again 05:16:03 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest65505 05:16:12 no tea! bad tea! 05:16:25 -!- ice_four [n=ice_four@host81-152-115-7.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 05:18:40 -!- xinming__ [n=hyy@218.73.130.211] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:18:46 -!- Guest65505 is now known as lexa_ 05:19:16 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest41582 05:20:07 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMyiY08HE0U&feature=related 05:21:52 xinming__ [n=hyy@218.73.143.192] has joined #lisp 05:22:52 well, not on the keyboard, but from the side 05:22:54 -!- ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:23:17 -!- Maddas [n=Maddas@tardis-b23.ee.ethz.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:23:21 last time i had to completely disassemble it and dry with a hair-drier 05:23:25 ick 05:23:51 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:26:22 -!- drforr_ is now known as DrForr 05:26:48 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.143.26] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:34:43 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:38:10 its a shame that xmonad isn't lisp :P 05:38:46 there's stumpwm though :) 05:38:48 stumpwm is 05:39:56 i tried it an in 6 hours it crashed twice on me 05:40:15 xmonad, though written in haskell, it quite good. just a pita to configure and i can't write extensions for it 05:43:09 XMonad is the gateway drug to haskell ;-) 05:44:44 yeah, well no thanks :P 05:45:43 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:46:49 -!- Guest41582 is now known as lexa_ 05:47:19 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest60411 05:51:18 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@ppp-70-253-78-64.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:51:47 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 05:53:38 -!- Guest60411 is now known as lexa_ 05:54:07 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest68891 05:54:38 alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-34-98-104.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:16 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:12 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.248.24] has joined #lisp 06:04:55 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:02 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:39 -!- Guest68891 is now known as lexa_ 06:06:09 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest39167 06:07:00 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:07:16 can loop collect things into an array? 06:07:23 no 06:08:19 ok, thanks 06:09:36 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-84-151.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:10:29 what's the best way to negate a bit array 06:10:36 -!- Guest39167 is now known as lexa_ 06:10:42 000110 -> 111001 06:11:02 xor w/ 111111 ? 06:11:05 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest86905 06:11:14 just don't ask how to do it in lisp. 06:11:15 -!- xinming__ [n=hyy@218.73.143.192] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:11:15 ;] 06:11:18 clhs bit-not 06:11:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_bt_and.htm 06:11:31 clhs lognot 06:11:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_logand.htm 06:12:14 bit-not is awesome 06:13:15 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 06:13:38 -!- Guest86905 is now known as lexa_ 06:13:58 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:14:07 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest55248 06:18:54 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 06:19:41 -!- Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 06:20:35 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 06:21:40 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 06:21:57 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.163.205.30] has joined #lisp 06:25:38 -!- Guest55248 is now known as lexa_ 06:26:08 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest11058 06:27:24 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 06:29:17 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:31:56 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 06:36:23 hrm, is there a good comparison between mapcar/maplist/map ? i dont' get the difference ;] 06:36:44 clhs mapcara 06:36:44 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for mapcara. 06:36:50 clhs mapcar 06:36:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm 06:36:52 clhs map 06:36:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_map.htm 06:36:56 read it! 06:37:19 ouch, can you say RTFM? 06:37:42 RTFHS 06:37:46 RTFHS 06:37:47 eh 06:37:59 Well my work here is done then. 06:38:09 lol, I my fav is rtfpcl 06:38:57 *laugh* i had my nose in "Successful Lisp", and again, those spec sheets are still greek. 06:39:00 i think i need mapcar. 06:39:09 what are you doing? 06:39:22 mapcar is almost always what you need for list stuff 06:39:28 trying to apply a function to each string in a list of strings. 06:39:35 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-182-115-160.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:39:39 MAPCAR FTW 06:39:39 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-207.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:42 Demosthenes: do you need the original list? 06:40:11 true, if you're not worried about optimizing early, you could use a destructive version. 06:40:22 mapcar if you do (or want to program in a more functional fashion), dolist if you want to destructively modify the list in place 06:40:29 clhs mapcar 06:40:36 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 06:40:37 -!- Guest11058 is now known as lexa_ 06:40:37 clhs mapcar 06:40:46 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-182-115-160.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm 06:41:01 guaqua: nope, once done i need it no longer, so i could potentially use mapcan, right? 06:41:01 guaqua: really? 06:41:06 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest96655 06:41:28 stassats: please correct me if i'm wrong 06:42:06 Demosthenes, yes, if you like introducing the root of all evil. 06:42:31 guaqua: how are you modifying list in place with dolist? 06:43:11 stassats, I think he means just SETFing the return values into the list, rather than consing new structure 06:43:35 dolist is for iterating over a list, not for mapping 06:43:37 -!- Guest96655 is now known as lexa_ 06:43:41 yeah 06:43:56 what would you suggest, stassats? 06:43:59 guaqua, mapcan 06:44:07 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest4534 06:44:11 suggest to do what? 06:44:26 his descructive mapping 06:44:29 i think mapcar was the "proper" here. 06:44:39 Just use mapcar. 06:44:40 don't mind a copy... 06:44:40 clhs map-into 06:44:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_map_in.htm 06:44:47 minimizing side effects is good 06:44:58 mapcar is the standard, and won't kill kittens by reusing conses. 06:45:07 map-into sounds better 06:45:53 abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 06:46:15 Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:46:33 morning 06:46:42 right, need to save those kittens 06:47:59 I have a bit of a different question this morning...I am looking for a new linux distro...but from a lisp point of view...which distros plays nice with lisp preferably sbcl out of the box?? 06:48:09 Harag: None. 06:48:19 lol 06:48:33 Harag: Basically they all play nice with lisp as long as you avoid using the distro packages. 06:48:36 use anything you like 06:48:36 debian is "good enough" 06:48:38 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:48:47 as long as you don't use the debian lisp packages ;) 06:48:56 i've mainly used debian's sbcl, but my own packages 06:49:43 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.242] has joined #lisp 06:49:46 Doesn't that .. get a bit old and give you the horrid CLC ? :) 06:49:55 well its nice if the distro has version of sbcl in its repositories becaus ethen I can use clbuild to get the latest sbcl going 06:50:08 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-40-3.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:50:20 Harag: I think most distros do. And if not there is binary available of sbcl :) 06:50:21 CLC? 06:50:26 common lisp controller. 06:50:34 ah 06:51:01 "A very nice system for installing Common Lisp libraries and source on Debian" 06:51:06 good morning 06:53:34 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-217-97.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:54:50 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-2-68.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:29 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:55:38 -!- Guest4534 is now known as lexa_ 06:56:08 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest29880 06:56:40 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-200-65.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:59:37 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 07:00:20 mega1 [n=mega@pool-02626.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:00:36 schme: "very nice" indeed ;-) 07:02:14 hrm, an &rest list of params i should be passing to the backend function, but it is complaining i'm sending a list. 07:02:59 Demosthenes: Maybe it is expecting foo bar baz and you are giving it '(foo bar baz) ? 07:03:13 Just guessing here :) 07:03:27 Demosthenes, lisppaste? 07:03:38 no, there are flags to a backend function i'm "wrapping", and i was trying to use &rest flags and just pass them on. 07:03:49 schme: exactly 07:03:58 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-34-98-104.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:04:05 thoughin a symbol, not quoted 07:06:32 alexbobp [n=alex@ppp-70-253-66-27.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:15 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:07:51 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:08:20 Well.. don't do that :) 07:08:32 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:52 Blkt [n=Blkt@host-78-13-248-154.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 07:09:14 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 07:09:20 schme: ... i'm sure its a common problem i've stumlbed into 07:09:35 is there a fix, or shall i list every potential flag in my own code? 07:09:42 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-7-99.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:09:53 where's your code? 07:13:13 http://pastebin.com/d149a6ebf 07:13:47 clhs apply 07:13:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 07:13:57 ruediger__ [n=ruediger@62-47-147-99.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 07:13:59 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:14:00 Demosthenes: you're missing a &key &allow-other-keys argument to your wrapper. 07:14:04 and next time use lisppaste 07:14:18 -!- sobersabre [n=bilbo@85.64.34.22.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit ["leaving"] 07:16:00 *ponder* 07:16:10 pjb: what for? 07:16:29 For better error checking. 07:16:38 at the wrapper call site. 07:16:56 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:46 simple fix to use apply... check the corrections. 07:18:44 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:36 -!- Guest29880 is now known as lexa_ 07:20:41 pjb: then why not list all keys, for even better error checking 07:21:06 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest2078 07:21:27 Yes, it would be better, but it is much more work, with presence and default values, etc... 07:22:39 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:22:42 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:23:37 -!- Guest2078 is now known as lexa_ 07:24:07 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest74452 07:24:33 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:24:50 apply worked immediately 07:25:30 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:25:55 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-23-20.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:27:44 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:28:51 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:29:07 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 07:29:33 _8david [n=user@77-22-106-191-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:29:43 -!- ruediger_ [n=ruediger@62-47-139-220.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:31:42 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:49 artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has joined #lisp 07:34:21 How do I remove all hashes except a select list of keys? ie. I want to crop a hashtable. My approach so far: Using a let binding around maphash, I get access to the hashtable object within the function maphash is calling- and I can therefore (if (in-list key selected-list) nil (remhash key hashtable-object)) 07:34:28 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:34:51 but it looks like I'll also have to write an in-list function here. Anyone with better suggestions? 07:35:08 artagnon: why not copy selected keys to new hashtable and replace the reference? 07:35:29 p_l: ah. 07:35:38 *artagnon* is still thinking like a C guy 07:35:39 -!- Guest74452 is now known as lexa_ 07:35:39 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-10-213.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:47 artagnon: even in C it would be faster :) 07:35:54 reallly? 07:36:08 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest48022 07:36:10 It depends on the size of the keep list relative to the throw list. 07:36:17 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:36:38 yeah, I'm not looking for THE most optimal solution. Just an elegant one. 07:36:48 which isn't too inefficient. 07:36:50 tic: sure, but scanning the whole hash to remove all keys except few is O(n), while lookup is smaller (I don't remember how much) 07:37:17 wasn't hashtable lookup close to O(1)? 07:37:28 should be. 07:37:29 p_l, yes. 07:37:42 i.e. O(c). 07:37:55 -!- Guest48022 is now known as lexa_ 07:38:11 p_l: What do you mean by "replace the reference" here? that's the part I didn't understand. 07:38:25 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest80803 07:38:27 p_l: setf the initial hashtable symbol to the new hashtable object? 07:38:37 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:38:48 artagnon: yup 07:39:06 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-182-115-160.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:39:19 let GC take care of removing unused hashtable 07:39:26 *artagnon* nods 07:40:24 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:40:55 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:00 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 07:41:41 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-49-224.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:42:21 p_l: Wait, could you illustrate how to implement your copying solution elegantly? I'm still stuck reading http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/collections.html and all I can figure is maphash. 07:43:21 aja_ [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:01 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:44:19 -!- aja_ [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:44:43 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:44:52 The Practical Common Lisp book is just ok. Are there any better books on Lisp? 07:45:12 minion, tell artagnon about on-lisp 07:45:13 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``on-lisp''. 07:45:21 minion: tell artagnon about onlisp 07:45:22 artagnon: please look at onlisp: An advanced textbook on Common Lisp, with special focus on macros. at http://www.cliki.net/On%20Lisp 07:46:03 *artagnon* looks 07:46:54 -!- Guest80803 is now known as lexa_ 07:47:22 any idea why this warning ; The definition lacks the REFINE key present in proclamation. 07:47:24 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest73847 07:47:26 Adlai: oh On Lisp. I already read this. 07:47:42 it's pretty crazy. I didn't understand most of the stuff. 07:47:46 (defun tilley1993 (M N K Q T1 r &key refine) ... ) 07:47:51 *artagnon* considers re-reading it 07:47:59 it's very good... 07:48:05 -!- KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-2-68.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:48:06 also, what don't you like about PCL? 07:48:54 Adlai: I didn't 'get' Lisp after reading it. I felt that this article offered more insight into it: http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/lisp.html 07:50:14 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:50:46 Adlai: PCL is more like a 'feature showcase' that's meant to blow the reader's mind away. It's a good inspirational read. But I felt it was very superficial. 07:50:57 how far have you gotten? 07:50:59 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:51:13 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:51:15 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.128.178] has quit [Client Quit] 07:51:26 Adlai: in what? PCL? I finished the book 8 months ago, and I've been re-reading it in binges ever since. 07:51:41 can someone help me make sense of the style warning? Thank you. 07:52:10 artagnon, I found the practical examples very enlightening in that book... 07:53:58 Adlai: hm. Well, I feel that teaching by example only works when fundamentals are in place. I'm coming from an imperative background, and the design of the programs in the examples made little sense to me 8 months ago (first read) 07:54:25 hm well maybe rereads will help. 07:54:30 other than that, a few more books: 07:54:31 *artagnon* nods 07:54:39 minion, tell artagnon about successful-lisp 07:54:40 artagnon: direct your attention towards successful-lisp: Successful Lisp is a book providing an all-around summary of Common Lisp, available online at http://www.psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/ 07:54:46 minion, tell artagnon about PAIP 07:54:47 artagnon: direct your attention towards PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 07:55:02 PAIP is very good but non free... you can see most of it at google books though. 07:55:17 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 07:55:24 oh nice. I haven't read both of them. 07:58:07 leo2007: What is the warning and the code? 07:58:41 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-200-65.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:21 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:00:25 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A00D3.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:00:56 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:01:12 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:01:12 Ok, again: Can someone briefly tell me how I should copy out selected hashes (select by keys) from one hashtable to another? 08:01:19 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 08:01:24 -!- pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:01:29 minion: ,paste 08:01:29 pragma_ [n=pragma@blackshell.com] has joined #lisp 08:01:30 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``,paste''. 08:01:38 minion: paste 08:01:39 paste: lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations 08:01:41 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-32-113.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:01:43 |koft| [n=kvirc@adsl-144-190-99.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:57 -!- pragma_ is now known as Guest34419 08:01:59 -!- frodef [n=ffj@24.80-203-67.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:02:17 -!- qebab_ [n=finnrobi@unicorn.nnordmark.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:02:20 qebab [n=finnrobi@unicorn.nnordmark.com] has joined #lisp 08:03:28 leo2007 pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82743 08:03:45 schme: 82743 08:03:53 -!- Guest73847 is now known as lexa_ 08:03:57 schme: i didn't paste the whole function 08:03:59 artagnon: I'd loop over the keys and extract + put in the other one. 08:04:23 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest93699 08:04:31 schme: got it. LOOP. 08:04:40 schme: Thanks :) 08:04:49 artagnon: there are maphash and what heck though. Maybe it suits your needs better :) 08:05:23 schme: maphash? hm, that was my original solution 08:05:38 leo2007: i guess (:refine boolean) 08:05:55 schme: how do I check if the key is desired? check if it's present in a list? (I have to write another function for that, right?) 08:07:01 artagnon: I guess... you could map over the hash with a function that checks "do we want this key? WELL DO WE? oh yeah. let's copy it". otherwise just leave it. 08:07:44 -!- koft [n=kvirc@adsl-144-190-99.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:08:00 artagnon: My first thought was to loop over the actual keys you want though :) 08:08:35 stassats: excellent!! 08:08:41 schme: Oh. I think I'll use the first then. 08:09:00 artagnon: Maybe http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/hashes.html has something of interest. 08:09:02 benny [n=benny@i577A00D3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:09:11 *artagnon* looks 08:10:41 schme: nice examples. Thanks :) 08:11:09 OH! 08:11:21 You want to do it in reverse of I was thinking. 08:11:39 oh no. 08:11:41 well nevermind. 08:11:49 carry on :) 08:12:47 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:14:25 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:18:52 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:22:12 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:22:32 schme: ok, I wrote a solution. Have a look if you like. 08:22:34 *schme* is waiting for the news that some company bought TPB to hit reddit and/or slashdot. 08:22:34 artagnon pasted "crop hashtable" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82745 08:22:59 !test 08:23:03 oops 08:23:33 Adlai: The minion can run code too? 08:23:47 nope. wrong bot, wrong channel. :) 08:23:47 artagnon: yay. 08:23:50 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 08:24:03 I remember there was a bot that could run code for 30-40 minutes sometime. 08:24:07 well, minion runs code, but through various commands... 08:24:07 schme: Thanks again :) 08:24:22 I guess someone made it execute some madness. 08:24:23 minion: memo for adlai: see? 08:24:24 Remembered. I'll tell adlai when he/she/it next speaks. 08:24:24 Adlai, memo from Adlai: see? 08:24:38 minion: eval http://paste.lisp.org/display/82745 08:24:38 i like lisp... i'm written in it 08:24:41 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-200-65.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:24:44 er 08:24:51 minion: test http://paste.lisp.org/display/82745 08:24:52 lisp is the glue that binds the variables together 08:24:52 minion: tell artagnon about minion 08:24:53 artagnon: have a look at minion: minion is an IRC robot (who prefers the term "electronically composed.") For online help, try /msg minion help Minion is hosted at common-lisp.net and is usually connected to the #lisp IRC channel. http://www.cliki.net/minion 08:25:14 :D 08:25:43 schme: no, the bot worked well. People were trying to abuse it on the chan, and it was easier to boot the bot, than to boot people. 08:26:04 kuwabara: ah :) yeah. makes sense. 08:27:37 ignas_ [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 08:31:21 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:33:22 schme: ok, I want to extend that loop for picking matching hashes from multiple hashes. Can I get a hint for this? 08:33:42 s/multiple hashes/multiple hashtables 08:35:58 -!- markand [n=markand@unaffiliated/markand] has left #lisp 08:36:16 Not quite following you there :) 08:36:56 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 08:37:00 You want to use a list of keys and use 'em to check 4 hash-tables? 08:37:14 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@81-174-50-211.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 08:38:37 schme: The LOOP that I wrote here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/82745 -- I want to check if the keys in crop-list is present in response-hashtable-1 and response-hashtable-2 and then create a cropped-hashtable that contains crop-keys (and corresponding values) from both tables 08:38:40 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:39:40 (format t "~A ?? ~A" x y) 08:39:43 ok.. lemme just rephrase that in terms I understand. You want to see if FOO BAR and BAZ is present in table-1 and table-2 and if they're in there you put 'em in crop-table ? 08:40:12 what to use in place of ?? so that X Y is aligned and separated at least by 20 spaces? 08:40:52 schme: yes, that is correct, except it's logically (table-1 OR table-2) 08:41:40 danlei [n=user@pD9E2EF1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:30 artagnon: Right ok. See I'd still LOOP over the actual keys and look each up in the tables :) some (loop for key in '(foo bar baz) doing ....) 08:42:53 artagnon: but it gets ugly with so many hash tables. so maybe it's dumb :) 08:43:20 schme: hm, actually it's alright. I'll try that and post a solution. 08:43:21 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 08:44:21 leo2007: mebbe ~10,20T 08:44:29 hmm. nope. 08:45:52 leo2007: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/22_c.htm < is here somewhere :) good luck! 08:48:01 -!- ruediger__ [n=ruediger@62-47-147-99.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:49:50 -!- ignas_ is now known as ignas 08:50:41 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:50:46 schme: thanks. 08:51:58 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:52:21 New version coming up. I made serious mistakes in the first version. 08:52:24 artagnon annotated #82745 "Cropping multiple hashtables" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82745#1 08:52:54 Why the progn? 08:53:21 schme: it doesn't need a progn? ok, I'll remove it 08:53:32 I can't imagine it does :) 08:53:33 I thought do takes only one statement 08:53:56 Well even if it does... (if (...) (....) (...)) <- that is just one statement :) 08:54:04 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.248.181] has joined #lisp 08:54:06 ah yes 08:54:20 plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.194.22] has joined #lisp 08:54:48 artagnon annotated #82745 "Removed progn" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82745#2 08:55:13 artagnon: What happens if the hash value in response-hashtable is NIL? 08:55:41 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 08:55:56 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit ["zzz"] 08:56:03 well time to eat :) 08:56:04 schme: Hm, I should use a multipe-value-bind then 08:56:11 I guess. 08:56:16 schme: ok 08:57:20 kihot3 [n=aefefuul@118.69.152.108] has joined #lisp 08:57:22 -!- kihot3 [n=aefefuul@118.69.152.108] has left #lisp 08:57:25 kihot3 [n=aefefuul@118.69.152.108] has joined #lisp 08:57:31 -!- kihot3 [n=aefefuul@118.69.152.108] has left #lisp 08:57:36 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:58:31 artagnon: Also I'm thinking what if the key is not in any table? and maybe this whole LOOP idea was not so good and some other way would have been better/cleaner :) 08:58:58 schme: I'll use a cond for multiple hashtables then 08:59:07 schme: what's the better idea? 08:59:16 I don't want to manually iterate over the list 08:59:38 Well I dunno. I'm cooking food here. It just occured to me that it gets not so pretty with all the conditional stuff. But it works, sure :) 09:00:14 hm. Thanks for the heads up. Probably someone else on the channel can help me out from here. 09:01:26 asksol_ [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 09:01:42 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:02:48 oudeis [n=oudeis@93-173-122-198.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 09:05:28 asksol- [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 09:06:01 artagnon annotated #82745 "cond crop-multiple-hashtables" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82745#3 09:06:28 hm. It looks a little ugly 09:06:46 but if the number of hashtables increase, I can abstract that cond out into my own macro 09:07:21 indeed :) 09:07:25 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-151-28.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 09:07:37 schme: so it's alright otherwise? 09:07:47 well I didn't actually read the last one :P 09:08:06 ya that looks good though. 09:08:30 schme: ok, thanks. I'll work on abstracting out that cond into my own macro 09:08:43 I'm sure some of the people in here can think of much nicer solutions. But eeeh.. whatever works, eh? :) 09:09:16 artagnon: you've got the COND form wrong, I think. yours only has one clause 09:09:22 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.248.24] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:09:31 fe[nl]ix: oh, I'll check that 09:09:46 oh yes. missing ) 09:09:46 fe[nl]ix: right, thanks for pointing that out 09:10:02 *artagnon* can never get everything right in the first attempt :( 09:10:08 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:10:15 artagnon: the indentation leaves a big sign something is whack I guess :) 09:10:27 getting () 09:10:29 eeh 09:10:35 getting ()'s right is an art form ;) 09:11:03 schme: I use paredit, but I typed out the test() part because this code is actually part of a much larger function 09:11:24 schme: it's not art, but habit 09:13:33 artagnon annotated #82745 "Silly mistakes corrected" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82745#4 09:13:39 There. 09:13:44 I think it should be perfect now. 09:14:02 (: 09:14:12 artagnon: also, h-p-p can be better written as (nth-value 1 (gethash crop-key response-hashtable)) 09:15:16 fe[nl]ix: got it, changing that. I don't need a multiple-value-bind for two values when I'm reading one 09:15:59 artagnon: and split those SETFs in two lines 09:16:58 artagnon annotated #82745 "Eliminated need for h-p-p" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82745#5 09:17:15 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:17:15 fe[nl]ix: There. 09:18:21 The next step is to convert this into a more generalized function that handles a list of hashtables. 09:18:24 *artagnon* gets to work 09:18:58 bobf_ [n=bob@host86-146-215-63.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:19:30 This is a good learning experience! Beginners should be taught to do work in steps like this; extending simpler functions to make more generalized ones :) 09:19:40 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-248.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 09:19:57 yay 09:20:39 -!- |koft| [n=kvirc@adsl-144-190-99.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:20:52 artagnon: Maybe you should document it all in a blog post for others to enjoy :) 09:21:21 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:21:25 schme: yeah, I'll do that! With annotations and logs from this channel :D 09:21:31 should make a really interesting read 09:21:33 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:22:34 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:40 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:25:14 dys` [n=andreas@p5B316BAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:32 minion: chant 09:28:33 MORE GENERALIZED 09:28:47 :) 09:30:57 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B31655E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:31:29 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:31:29 *larts himself* So much for the macro. I think I totally messed it up with a C-style nested looping :'( 09:31:32 artagnon annotated #82745 "C-style nested for loop for generalization" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82745#6 09:31:50 minion: chant 09:31:51 MORE GENERALIZED 09:32:36 mmm 09:32:40 can someone please look at that and help me break out of this stupid C-style nested loop? 09:32:44 artagnon: what are you doing?... 09:32:57 that doesn't look like common lisp 09:33:12 sykopomp: Look at the previous annotations. I was trying to crop a hashtable first 09:33:16 and then two hashtables 09:33:23 now I generalized it to a list of hashtables 09:33:30 and messed up badly 09:33:38 why are they nested? 09:33:47 you can have parallel for keywords in LOOP 09:34:15 also, where the heck is tweet-keys? 09:34:27 -!- lukjadOO7 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:34:31 sykopomp: er, I want it to iterate over EACH hashtable in every iteration step of crop-key in tweet-keys 09:34:31 -!- jao [n=jao@94.Red-88-6-161.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:34:42 sykopomp: don't worry about that. It's defined globally 09:34:53 artagnon: that's what earmuffs are for. 09:35:07 ? 09:35:19 -!- hawkbill [n=spradnye@nat/yahoo/x-f0f2d64259678ec4] has left #lisp 09:35:30 artagnon: global variables should be wrapped with *foo* 09:35:41 s/global/special/ 09:35:41 oh, right. I forgot 09:35:44 *artagnon* changes that 09:35:51 spradnyesh [n=spradnye@nat/yahoo/x-13be0be63079bcc9] has joined #lisp 09:36:02 what about the nesting? how can I help it? 09:36:15 artagnon: use mapc/mapcar/maphash 09:36:33 also, that LET has the wrong syntax 09:37:34 er, right. Corrected. 09:37:51 there is no function called make-hashtable 09:38:27 *artagnon* checks 09:38:30 oh 09:38:33 it's make-hash-table 09:38:34 and you don't seem to be using final-hashtable at all 09:38:34 damn 09:38:44 that whole function is just completely and utterly messed up 09:38:59 :'( 09:39:18 I'm still a beginner. Don't be so harsh. I'll post annotations immediately. 09:40:01 hahah. 09:40:22 "that whole function is just completely and utterly messed up" sorry. made me laugh :) 09:40:45 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 09:41:12 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:41:13 artagnon: what do you want to do? 09:41:15 artagnon annotated #82745 "Total refactor" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82745#7 09:41:49 what is this "crops, sanitizes, and enriches"? Is this some sort of hash table spa? 09:41:52 if so, where do I sign up? 09:42:19 sykopomp: I want to select hashes from multiple hashtables (using a key list) and put them in a new hashtable 09:42:22 sykopomp: He wants to hand his function a list of hash tables, and then look up keys in those hash tables. if there is a match it goes into the final hash table. 09:42:25 yeah. 09:42:44 artagnon: you're not touching final-hashtable at all. 09:42:59 *artagnon* looks hard 09:43:06 also, you're missing a paren after (make-hash-table) 09:43:25 -!- mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 09:43:33 you make a hash table, put it into final-hashtable, and you just leave it there :\ 09:43:50 (: 09:44:23 sykopomp: What about (setf (gethash crop-key final-hashtable) 09:44:24 (gethash crop-key hashtable)) --? 09:44:30 -!- Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 09:44:33 artagnon: final-hashtable isn't visible from hashtable-key-cond 09:44:44 *artagnon* slaps himself 09:44:45 shit 09:44:54 sykopomp: could you explain why not? 09:45:06 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 09:45:07 because the binding is local to hashtable-parser. 09:45:28 artagnon annotated #82745 "Corrected more silly mistakes and let indentation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82745#8 09:45:46 you have a couple of options 09:45:55 sykopomp: hm. What are my options? 09:46:01 the better one (imo) is to pass the final-hashtable into hashtable-key-cond 09:46:40 but I thought lexical binding meant that it would be visible inside other functions also...? 09:46:43 another option is to declare final-hashtable special, in which case hashtable-key-cond will see it. 09:46:58 ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:46:58 special then. 09:47:06 How do I make it special again? earmuffs? 09:47:18 another option is to simply inline hashtable-key-cond (replace the #'hashtable-key-cond with (lambda (table) body-of-ht-k-c) ) 09:47:30 earmuffs are only stylistic, but they're still important. 09:47:45 sykopomp: then how do I make it special? 09:47:48 you can declare a variable special by doing (declare (special var)) 09:47:55 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:48:00 oh, ok. 09:48:04 *artagnon* hasn't seen that before 09:48:19 but keep in mind that hashtable-key-cond will fail spectacularly if you call it in a context where there is no final-hashtable binding. 09:48:30 so I would recommend you use either the 1st or the 3rd option :) 09:48:34 sykopomp: yes, I understand. 09:48:37 ok, 3rd 09:48:42 but the inline thing is hard. 09:48:48 shall I make it a macro instead? 09:48:56 wil it be visible to it in that case? 09:49:17 sorry, I meant that the inline thing is messy 09:50:26 then just modify hashtable-key-cond to accept two hash tables. 09:50:30 that's easy enough 09:50:39 ok 09:51:12 schme: wow. This has been going on for a while, hasn't it? 09:51:22 smanek [n=abc@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:22 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-182-115-160.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:29 Is there a standard/idiomatic way to parse a string into a rational? I'm about to write something that uses parse-integer (and deals with decimals), but that seems unnecessarily ugly ... 09:52:34 sykopomp: er, then I can't use mapcar, can I? 09:52:47 sykopomp: I dunno.. hour maybe? Seems like a wonderful learning experience :) 09:53:21 artagnon: you can. replace #'hashtable-key-cond with (lambda (table) (hashtable-key-cond table final-table)) 09:53:25 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@93-173-122-198.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [No route to host] 09:53:38 sykopomp: oh, ok 09:54:36 artagnon annotated #82745 "Corrected visibility of final-hashtable" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82745#9 09:54:42 There. 09:54:46 I hope it's alright now 09:54:50 smanek: (read-from-string "1/2") 09:55:05 smanek: first value returned is the rational 09:55:21 artagnon: you shoulds write yerself some tests to make sure it works :D 09:56:00 antoszka: Thanks, but I'm planning to use this on untrusted input so I don't feel comfortable using 'read' ... 09:56:03 schme: ok, I'll also take this opportunity to learn unit testing properly :D 09:56:23 kiuma [n=kiuma@proxy.emea.fedex.com] has joined #lisp 09:56:24 smanek: right :) 09:56:37 rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 09:57:06 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:57:09 I probably should have mentioned that up front, sorry. I guess I'll just right one then. Thanks 09:57:15 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-81-95.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:58:09 how wonderful to see a piece of code slowly evolve :P 09:58:14 ...into something runnable. 09:58:28 it just needs more synergy I think 09:58:28 -!- spradnyesh [n=spradnye@nat/yahoo/x-13be0be63079bcc9] has left #lisp 09:58:30 minion: chant 09:58:30 MORE SYNERGY 09:58:59 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-151-28.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 10:00:02 sykopomp: Annotations are wonderful, no? :) 10:00:13 smanek: Probably you could run over the string twice with parse-integer with junk-allowed, to fish out the bits of the rational. 10:00:20 sykopomp: yeah well, synergy will come with more experience. 10:00:49 free_thinker [n=willijar@134.151.144.246] has joined #lisp 10:00:51 sykopomp: it looks like something pieced together. Not something that's 'meant' to be the way it is. That's the problem. 10:00:58 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:01:00 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:01:30 -!- asksol- [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:01:37 antoszka: Thanks for the pointer 10:01:44 sykopomp && schme: Thank you both very much for your patience. I know I'm stupid and it's hard to teach me :p -- I'll definitely write a blog entry or similar to teach others. 10:02:17 -!- asksol_ [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:04:24 artagnon: you're not stupid, you're a newbie :) 10:05:39 oh well, I expected to learn *much* faster. I haven't needed to use a book for any other language. Python- I can write good working code in two hours flat. 10:05:44 C- maybe a week. 10:06:08 Common Lisp- It's been 8 months now and I still don't understand basic scoping :'( 10:06:19 that's bizarre. 10:06:23 maybe you should read a book 10:06:25 :\ 10:06:30 lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-3-247.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:32 I did. PCL. 10:06:33 artagnon: No man. You're making good progress. And unlike a *lot* of people you don't come here asking for the complete solution, and then head off.. to return next week with requests for a new solution. You're actually trying to learn. 10:06:34 Didn't like it. 10:06:34 or write something useful? 10:06:43 artagnon: Also I think you'd enjoy PAIP :) 10:07:03 artagnon: alternately, you can work on existing newbie-friendly code :) 10:07:37 schme: :) I hang out here almost everyday, asking only for suggestions to annotate. The complete solution would be boring (!) 10:07:47 schme: ok, I'll buy PAIP. 10:08:20 artagnon: you probably wanna get a better idea of what you're doing before jumping into PAIP, imnsho 10:08:26 sykopomp: Right :) btw, to keep myself motivated, I'm actually working on a small project. It's a Twitter client, Twitel. http://github.com/artagnon/twitel 10:08:48 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:08:56 twitcl! 10:09:03 twitel makes it sound so elisp :P 10:09:09 schme: it IS elisp. 10:09:10 hahaha 10:09:13 Oh. 10:09:14 schme: it IS elisp 10:09:22 simpler to start out with :p 10:09:26 I see. 10:09:30 artagnon: if you're trying to learn elisp, you should seek help in #emacs :) 10:09:44 Not really simpler. Just different. But yeah. not quite the right channel. We have #lisp, #scheme and #emacs :) 10:09:53 I guess maybe #clojure and #arc too. 10:10:04 specially since some of the advice I gave you is actually irrelevant, as far as I know :\ 10:10:08 sykopomp: I've heard that BILLION times. I don't asking elisp-specific questions here. 10:10:18 sykopomp: that's alright. I write CL-style code. 10:10:29 it's not the same 10:10:32 not at all 10:10:49 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6CE73.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:50 sykopomp: I know. Superficially, they behave similiarly though. 10:10:58 the :cl module for elisp might smell a bit like CL, but it's still not CL, and the rules of engagement are not the same :) 10:11:25 for example, if I recall correctly, the stuff I told you about scoping doesn't apply to elisp, because every damn variable is a dynamic variable :\ 10:11:36 sykopomp: I know :) 10:11:38 *artagnon* smiles 10:11:40 I think that is right. no lexical scoping. 10:11:44 no lexical scoping 10:11:48 It's like.. the opposite of scheme. 10:11:58 schme: it's old-school lisp. 10:12:02 best of all worlds is CL then ;) 10:12:07 sykopomp: It's madness :) 10:12:11 (wasn't scheme the one that introduced lexical scoping in the first place?) 10:12:16 what do old-school know about programming anyway! 10:12:41 artagnon: Quite a few things behave differently in elisp. You might be much better of in #emacs. 10:12:47 yeah 10:13:11 in fact, you'll be worse off if you try to learn elisp from here, since you'll constantly be running into those tiny little differences that bite you in the ass. 10:13:34 schme && sykopomp: like what? tell me what was different in the hashtable example. 10:14:01 variable scoping: I know it's dynamic, but I assume it's lexical. 10:14:43 artagnon: My elisp is quite rusty to be honest. But it might very well be that this example works just the same. or not. 10:14:48 artagnon: you're trying to get C++ advice from a Java channel. This seems like a losing approach 10:15:06 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 10:15:10 rudi: hm. 10:15:12 artagnon: also I think half the functions are named slighltly different in elisp. and it will confuse you and us trying to help ya :) 10:15:15 rudi: considering c++ vs java, wouldn't that be the other way around? 10:15:19 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:15:27 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-130.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:15:34 sykopomp: pretend I used your favorite example languages as example, then ;) 10:15:34 haha 10:15:42 *artagnon* hates java too 10:15:50 c++ being the gigantic, bloated, native-code-compiling beast that takes years to master, java being the very common, on-a-vm language? :) 10:16:31 c++ not having a community and instead relying on a standard, hoping that different implementations are compatible, java being the one with a single canonical implementation that runs on a single canonical vm... 10:16:39 *sykopomp* senses a conspiracy. 10:17:03 schme: I'll keep that in mind. I keep popping back to the #emacs channel anyway when such a situation arises. Besides, I test my little functions on Slime (CL). 10:17:25 At #emacs, they don't give style tips :( 10:18:04 And #emacs is bad for core Lisp stuff like hashtable splicing etc. 10:18:10 this channel is better for that sort of stuff. 10:18:15 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-142-48.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:18:48 artagnon: if you want CL advice, ask here, but it's a bit annoying to have to figure out what valid el is when helping you :) 10:19:08 sykopomp: Right, I understand. 10:19:19 Like I said, I test the small functions on Slime (CL) 10:19:32 so I don't blame #lisp people if it doesn't work in El. 10:20:32 *sykopomp* thinks you're better off just sticking with CL, if you're already mostly using it. 10:22:06 also IIRC elisp likes to indent itself a bit odd. 10:22:20 and things like IF does not work quite the same way. 10:22:23 or maybe they do. 10:22:37 I think if works as expected -- it's just indented funny. 10:22:41 the second part of elisp if is a progn, and the indentation rule makes sense because of that 10:22:53 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:22:58 *artagnon* checks the indentation rules 10:23:18 s/second part/"else" branch/ 10:23:30 Oh, I use common-lisp-indent-function :P 10:24:05 oh yeah. 10:24:08 rudi: that was it. 10:24:09 I use that for cl buffers, and standard elisp indent for elisp buffers - they're different languages with different indentation 10:24:23 yes. exactly. 10:24:34 rudi: you can ask Emacs to use whatever indentation function you like. 10:24:44 artagnon: that's what I do, yes 10:25:36 Simple enough then. I'm writing Elisp code that looks, behaves, and indents like CL code. Why bother porting back to Elisp... you have a point 10:26:23 But I like the networking parts in Elisp. They're damn simple to use. 10:26:47 like (url-retrieve) 10:26:56 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@204.194.78.3] has joined #lisp 10:27:33 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@81-174-50-211.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [] 10:27:34 artagnon: Then one day you try something heavy on the different scopes, and heavy on the closures. 10:27:39 artagnon: and elisp breaks ;) 10:27:53 schme: ofcourse. I'm not planning to stick with it anyway. 10:28:02 It's just a good learning ground I feel. 10:28:16 because I *can* write something substantial 10:29:10 artagnon: drakma:http-request :) 10:29:16 oh right, and *modules* 10:29:18 handy, those. 10:29:26 and files smaller than 100000 lOC 10:29:35 *artagnon* looks at drakma:http-request 10:29:47 minion: please tell artagnon about drakma 10:29:49 artagnon: direct your attention towards drakma: Drakma is a fully-featured Common Lisp web client library that knows how to handle HTTP/1.1 chunking, persistent connections, re-usable sockets, SSL, continuable uploads, cookies, and other things. http://www.cliki.net/drakma 10:31:23 spradnyesh [n=spradnye@nat/yahoo/x-ecbb070eed335586] has joined #lisp 10:31:52 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:32:34 Hm. It's too much pain to port, but don't worry- the project is almost complete except for the UI, which I want in Emacs (and hence El) anyway. I'll make sure that my next project is in CL. 10:33:08 -!- johs_ is now known as johs 10:33:16 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 10:33:16 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-182-115-160.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:33:24 goodnight, #lisp 10:33:32 nighty night, sykopomp 10:33:42 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-177-100-198.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:52 goodnight sykopomp 10:33:57 and thanks for everything :D 10:34:27 I'll go off to write more code too. I'll come back again when I need to improve my code :) 10:34:36 Thanks for everything, everyone. Again. 10:34:39 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 10:35:21 -!- artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has left #lisp 10:37:05 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-130.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:41:41 beach [n=user@58.186.146.148] has joined #lisp 10:41:47 Good evening 10:42:26 hi, beach 10:44:07 Hmm, the temperatures in Sài Gòn and Bordeaux are currently the same. 10:44:21 -!- smanek [n=abc@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:44:50 It's very warm around here. I hope the weather stays the same the entire week in Denmark, too. 10:45:21 tic: Where are you planning to go? 10:45:48 beach, Roskilde festival. Leaving tonight. Apparently, I'm missed there. :) 10:46:25 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 10:46:29 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D499.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:38 *tic* prepares by listening to Danish hiphop and stand-up shows. 10:48:52 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 10:49:03 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-81-95.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:49:33 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-60-183.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:50:28 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:52:24 leaving tonight? a bit late innit? 10:52:34 well maybe not.. I read the ticket sales were not going so well. 10:52:50 My fondest memories is sitting around on monday watching people looking for places to camp. 10:52:53 HAH 10:52:59 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:55:03 meh. don't just leave like that. 10:55:31 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.163.205.30] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:56:37 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.163.209.58] has joined #lisp 10:57:22 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-60-183.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:59:59 oudeis__ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-180-104-215.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:25 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-130.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:01:44 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@host148.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:07:20 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 11:08:44 -!- mega1 [n=mega@pool-02626.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:09:37 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-84-151.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:10:53 lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 11:16:55 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-177-100-198.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:22:11 -!- blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:25:22 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 11:25:39 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.242] has quit ["off"] 11:26:17 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:27:42 -!- spradnyesh [n=spradnye@nat/yahoo/x-ecbb070eed335586] has left #lisp 11:32:33 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 11:39:14 -!- beach [n=user@58.186.146.148] has left #lisp 11:44:26 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:44:39 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:44:54 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:48:21 -!- _dima_ [i=dima@torch.blackened.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:48:27 -!- Qsource [i=dima@torch.blackened.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:48:45 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:48:46 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 11:49:06 3 11:49:55 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:49:56 ice_four [n=ice_four@81.152.115.7] has joined #lisp 11:50:25 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:04 serichse1 [n=harleqin@81.173.145.188] has joined #lisp 11:54:01 mega1 [n=mega@pool-03e9c.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:55:43 blandest [n=blandest@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 11:55:43 -!- blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:57:18 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:59:15 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit ["leaving"] 12:00:30 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:02:29 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:20 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-130.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:07:55 -!- blandest [n=blandest@85.204.33.242] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:08:53 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-152-221.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:09:00 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 12:09:11 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:41 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 12:12:51 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 12:14:19 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:14:37 Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 12:17:38 andyL [n=andy@204.188.174.189] has joined #lisp 12:19:06 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 12:20:14 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-48.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:22:18 spradnyesh [n=spradnye@117.192.14.163] has joined #lisp 12:24:07 blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has joined #lisp 12:24:29 -!- Guest93699 is now known as lexa_ 12:24:59 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest60352 12:25:54 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:30:51 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:31:03 where should I go to direct my questions about sbcl? I can't compile the cvs version 12:31:28 backtrace.c 12:31:28 hmm, is there an easy way on the lisp side to see the value of --dynamic-space-size? 12:31:49 yvdriess: many sbcl hackers are here, but it's also good to contact sbcl-devel@lists.sourceforge.net 12:31:59 there are also other ways to report bugs, www.sbcl.org has details 12:32:50 it seems there's a bug database 12:35:10 rlb3 [n=rlb@70-138-117-197.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:56 -!- rlb3 [n=rlb@70-138-117-197.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:38:42 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:39:03 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-173-109.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 12:40:10 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 12:40:19 Xach: (define-alien-variable dynamic-space-size unsigned-long) (: 12:42:46 hmm 12:42:58 -!- dys` is now known as dys 12:43:13 i wonder why it says 8.5 billion 12:43:32 quek [n=read_eva@210.253.202.182] has joined #lisp 12:43:37 -!- spradnyesh [n=spradnye@117.192.14.163] has left #lisp 12:43:37 8G is the default value on x86_64, I believe 12:44:33 ok, thanks. 12:45:53 i am trying to get slime to start with a specific dynamic-space-size, but failing. 12:46:43 adityo [n=adityo@122.169.3.190] has joined #lisp 12:47:23 <_8david> what did you try so far? 12:47:43 first try was C-u M-x slime sbcl --dynamic-space-size 600 RET 12:47:49 LiamH [n=none@208.72.159.207] has joined #lisp 12:48:01 next try was updating the arguments to /usr/local/bin/sbcl in emacs's slime-lisp-implementations 12:48:11 https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/393845 12:48:13 with both ways the dynamic space size is 8GB 12:48:14 yay first bug report 12:48:48 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D499.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:49:13 -!- xristos [n=x@216.254.67.211] has quit ["Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.2.0"] 12:49:24 well, my *real* problem is that my application is loading a big data file and my computer is thrashing. the real fix is to install the 4GB memory i'm getting in a few days. for now i'm playing with --dynamic-space-size naively to see if it stops my computer from becoming unresponsive for minutes at a time. 12:49:56 yvdriess: does gcc now produce 64 bit executables by default? 12:50:06 I have no clue actually 12:50:22 the gcc was installed by the latest latest latest XCode 12:50:51 cd /tmp; echo 'int main () { return 0; }' > foo.c; gcc foo.c -o foo; file foo 12:50:54 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 12:51:07 Target: i686-apple-darwin10 12:51:07 Configured with: /var/tmp/gcc/gcc-5646~6/src/configure --disable-checking --enable-werror --prefix=/usr --mandir=/share/man --enable-languages=c,objc,c++,obj-c++ --program-transform-name=/^[cg][^.-]*$/s/$/-4.2/ --with-slibdir=/usr/lib --build=i686-apple-darwin10 --with-gxx-include-dir=/include/c++/4.2.1 --program-prefix=i686-apple-darwin10- --host=x86_64-apple-darwin10 --target=i686-apple-darwin10 12:51:11 sorry for the spam :P 12:51:22 should have added this to the report 12:52:37 <_8david> Xach: the C-u M-x method works for me 12:53:05 I guess this means lispworks for a while longer 12:53:49 append uname -a too. Maybe OS X started responding with x86-64 instead of i386. 12:53:59 I did 12:54:12 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@75.36.204.63] has joined #lisp 12:54:38 yvdriess: uname? I don't see it. 12:54:40 _8david: hmm, ok 12:54:51 should be clearer now 12:55:34 ah crap I'de better obfuscate my host name :) 12:56:22 oh wait. It was complaining about functions, not the macros. ucontext is deprecated?! 12:56:22 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:57:03 ah crap yes, it's not backtrace 12:57:10 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:57:12 it's darwin-os.c 12:57:17 that generates the error 12:57:36 backtrace probably uses it 12:57:56 sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has joined #lisp 12:58:15 mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 12:58:45 append -D_XOPEN_SOURCE to the CFLAGS in src/runtime/Config.x86-darwin 12:58:48 is it possible to set a breakpoint on variable access in sbcl? I want to know where a certain list is being modified 12:58:53 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:59:31 mcspiff: a list? No. If you were accessing an object, you could wrap an :around method which broke 12:59:38 -!- sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:59:59 mcspiff: if you're talking about a special variable, WHO-SETS will give you a list of functions that may set it (or grep). 13:00:03 sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has joined #lisp 13:00:27 Otherwise, you're only looking at local modifications or a bit of thinking. 13:00:33 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 13:00:46 pkhuong: it is a special. Do you know what package who-sets is in? 13:00:51 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 13:00:55 mcspiff: apropos knows. 13:00:57 or slime. 13:01:07 C-c C-w C-s 13:01:07 Are you sure your problem is a binding being modified behind your back, and not that the list is destructively modified? 13:01:07 hello 13:01:30 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 13:01:32 pkhuong: im not to be honest 13:02:12 ill see what i can poke around with... 13:02:34 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:03:49 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:05:03 -!- rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has quit ["Client exciting"] 13:05:07 -!- andyL [n=andy@204.188.174.189] has quit [] 13:05:40 artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has joined #lisp 13:07:22 With help from several people from this channel, I built this earlier today: http://paste.lisp.org/display/82745#9 -- It picks out selected hashes from a hashtable (selected from a list of keys) and copies it to one final hashtable. But I want to improve upon it: What if two hashtables have the same key? 13:07:38 your choice. 13:07:48 pkhuong: same error 13:07:53 darn, my wife is flying to canada the same weekend as ECLM. 13:08:12 gcc -g -Wall -O2 -fdollars-in-identifiers -mmacosx-version-min=10.4 -D_XOPEN_SOURCE -I. -no-cpp-precomp -c -o alloc.o alloc.c 13:08:24 adityo_ [n=adityo@122.169.10.250] has joined #lisp 13:08:37 Xach: Time to call in the grandparents! 13:08:50 tic: Right, I know. So can I have some hints on how I should pass this hashtable <-> list of keys correspondence? As another hashtable? 13:08:55 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 13:09:02 *Xach* scratches chin 13:10:02 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:11:38 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.169.3.190] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:12:17 yvdriess: what error? 13:12:17 Any ideas why slime that had been working for years will now not start up? "Symbol's function definition is void: slime-output-buffer" 13:12:41 and you haven't told me whether gcc produces 64 bit executables by default 13:13:26 I really don't know 13:13:36 adityo [n=adityo@122.169.14.95] has joined #lisp 13:13:36 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 13:13:43 pkhuong: /usr/include/ucontext.h:42:2: error: #error ucontext routines are deprecated, and require _XOPEN_SOURCE to be defined 13:13:44 yvdriess: that's why I suggested cd /tmp; echo 'int main () { return 0; }' > foo.c; gcc foo.c -o foo; file foo 13:13:55 ok I must have missed that 13:14:22 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:14:52 foo: Mach-O 64-bit executable x86_64 13:14:54 it does 13:15:47 -!- adityo_ [n=adityo@122.169.10.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:18:04 -!- rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:18:04 -!- PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:18:37 adityo_ [n=adityo@122.169.15.57] has joined #lisp 13:19:32 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:19:57 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:48 -D_XOPEN_SOURCE=600 might work, or might kill something else in the build. If it works, you're lucky; I don't have access to a 10.6 box yet. 13:21:29 are the ucontext routines deprecated in favour of anything? 13:21:38 TDT [i=dthole@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 13:21:48 Ogedei [n=user@85.178.220.113] has joined #lisp 13:22:06 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-41-17.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:03 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 13:24:22 I don't know. really doesn't inspire confidence. Note the email address of the poster (: 13:24:57 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:25:01 haha 13:25:20 *Xof* cries 13:25:40 <_8david> rs6000? 13:26:19 _8david: C-u M-x works ok for me now too. I wonder how I mistyped it before... 13:26:23 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:55 yvdriess: so, -D_... and -m32 on CFLAGS. 13:27:02 maybe you spelt it the american way: --dynamic-space-sise 13:27:27 -D_XOPEN_SOURCE=600 correct? 13:27:40 --deep-sighs 13:27:45 yvdriess: as much as using that flag can ever be correct. 13:27:46 yep 13:27:52 I blame it on the boogie 13:28:25 so m32 forces a 32 bit target? 13:28:28 yes. 13:28:41 I was hoping to take advantage of the new 64-bit complex floats :) 13:28:59 my quantum simulator is nothing else but 2x complex float operations 13:29:07 <_8david> you wouldn't be the first one bitten by SBCL's approach of silently doing the wrong thing when faced with unknown command line arguments 13:29:09 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-142-48.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:29:51 yvdriess: you're building a 32 bit SBCL. SBCL_ARCH=x86-64 will force a 64 bit build. 13:30:30 assuming you're on bash, that's ./clean.sh; SBCL_ARCH=x86-64 ./make.sh. 13:30:39 okay 13:30:53 and remove the -m32 in CFLAGS. 13:31:29 a 32-bit sbcl can't produce 64-bit code? 13:31:32 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-173-109.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:31:38 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.169.14.95] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:31:41 the build also fails without -m32 13:31:51 and now I see also with -m32 13:32:17 -!- ice_four [n=ice_four@81.152.115.7] has quit [] 13:32:25 NSIG undeclared in interrupt.h 13:32:28 alloc.o 13:32:42 there were two issues in your report: Darwin's latext ucontext weirdness, and building 32 bit sources for a 64 bit target. 13:32:43 sigh, better use a binary build I guess? 13:33:02 only if you never ever plan to make any changes at all 13:33:16 doesn't macos gcc default to 32bit, even on a 64bit machine? 13:33:17 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:33:23 rsynnott: not on 10.6, it seems. 13:33:31 oh, right, have not used 10.6 13:33:42 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-130.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:33:53 -m32 forces a 32 bit target for gcc, and SBCL_ARCH=x86-64 a 64 bit build of SBCL. 13:33:57 I had the vague idea they were sticking to the sun approach of not 64bit unless you make a song and dance about it 13:34:32 for ucontext, _XOPEN_SOURCE is a known bad band-aid that might work. 13:34:39 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-130.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:35:00 rsynnott: but snow leopard is the first truly 64 bit operating system!1! 13:35:23 sigh, should I just change the bugreport name to 'build fails on snow leopard' 13:35:24 :) 13:35:26 pkhuong: Is that really part of their marketing? 13:35:31 pkhuong: yes. apple has shown true innovation once again! 13:35:32 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 13:35:33 as always, it depends on definition :) 13:35:43 sellout: the kernel is now 64 bit 13:35:53 almost as innovative as their $80 power brick that has a magnet in it 13:36:08 (in Leopard, it seems, the kernel was 32bit but 64bit apps were allowed) 13:36:35 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:36:42 oh, well, I suppose it helps with their continuing persecution of Adobe :) 13:36:48 rsynnott: much more important, imo, is whether they've scaled past 3 (or was it 5?) locks of doom in the kernel ;) 13:37:02 hehe 13:37:49 (MacOS is a BIG platform for Adobe; it makes up at least half of the people who actually pay for Photoshop. Photoshop et al have consistently been using just about obsolete APIs/methods for the last decade on MacOS) 13:38:04 -!- sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-85.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:38:13 the current one uses Carbon, which apple is de-emphasising (there will never be a 64bit carbon) 13:38:26 and more's the pity. 13:38:43 before that, they had trouble with the intel transition, before that trouble with the macosX transition, and before THAT, trouble with the Toolbox->Carbon transition 13:38:43 -!- artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has left #lisp 13:38:55 but that doesn't excuse Adobe from delivering a crappy product for the Mac 13:39:00 rsynnott: poor apple ;< 13:39:08 68k -> PPC, no? 13:39:10 especially when the product started there 13:39:45 cp2: if you paid attention, that was trouble that adobe had 13:39:54 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:40:00 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@75.36.204.63] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:40:01 pkhuong: oh, probably, but Apple took their time about transition there themselves 13:40:10 wow, that discussion surely went off on a tangent 13:40:10 *Xach* spies cmm on ru_lisp 13:40:13 antifuchs: i should probably go back to idling, i havent slept in a really log time =P 13:40:17 -!- lvyi [n=lvs@114.255.44.132] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:40:18 (bits of the actual operating system were running under some sort of emulation for YEARS afterwards) 13:40:36 yvdriess: I'll put up a 64 bit build in a couple minutes. 13:40:49 awesome :) 13:40:53 mutli-threaded? 13:40:57 rsynnott: now I really see the similarity with palm os 13:41:04 sure. 13:41:10 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.163.209.58] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:41:19 Adamant: arguably, it indicates that Apple hasn't been giving them enough advance warning; it's unlikely that they're deliberately trying to break photoshop on their big platform 13:41:22 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:54 rsynnott: we recently learned that apple is breaking OS X for apple. 13:41:55 There were more minor transitions than 68k -> PPC. There was the switch from 24-bit addressing to 32-bit addressing. Then there were the four models of 68k that caused a little wobbliness 13:42:06 willb [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 13:42:32 24-bit to 32-bit was fun. A lot of app developers were storing metadata in the upper octet :/ 13:42:39 oh, dear 13:43:06 ice_four [n=ice_four@81.152.115.7] has joined #lisp 13:43:09 rsynnott: I think Adobe had a shift toward Windows products in general in the late 90's, and has generally devalued Mac products since and only valued Linux enough to deliver Flash 13:43:30 davazp [n=user@79.153.148.56] has joined #lisp 13:43:34 despite the piracy differential 13:43:42 Adamant: as far as I know, though, a big part of their revenue for the creative products plus flash comes from Apple 13:43:53 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-173-109.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 13:43:55 (Macs dominate design and media shops anyway) 13:44:01 right 13:44:37 dlowe: I think some people do that on x86-64. 13:44:43 but rationality, sometimes, has nothing to do with it 13:44:56 ejs0 [n=eugen@186-38-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:44 pkhuong: I'd expect that to break without deliberate masking. The beauty of the mac addressing scheme was that the upper eight bits of a pointer were totally ignored. Until they weren't. 13:46:24 dlowe: right, the address must be correctly sign extended 13:46:56 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 13:47:20 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:47:27 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:39 yvdriess: if you mentionned things you try, can you also paste the error you then encountered? 13:47:46 *mention 13:47:54 willdo 13:48:00 dlowe: hopefully, nothing similar is possible with current 64bit machines which actually have 40-48bit address buses? 13:48:10 Tordek [n=tordek@190.137.240.139] has joined #lisp 13:48:52 rsynnott: I don't think it's possible until you have access to the actual physical ram 13:49:55 rsynnott: I think all current chips will signal an exception if the unused bits (we're talking address space here) aren't all 1 or all 0. 13:50:06 ah, good 13:50:33 I think current chips actually differ in their address space, anyway 13:50:53 (AMDs are 48bit, most Intels seem to be 40bit, I tihnk) 13:51:14 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-10-213.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:52:08 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-9-66.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:14 pkhuong: updated 13:53:53 ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 13:54:10 unrelated question: how can I make sbcl start up with *print-circle* set to t 13:54:19 add a setq to .sbcl ? 13:55:01 yes, 13:55:05 .sbclrc 13:55:46 Sikander [n=soemraws@wirenat-eld.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has joined #lisp 13:56:01 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 13:58:09 lakedenma [n=irchon@166.137.5.134] has joined #lisp 13:58:12 -!- lakedenma is now known as lake 13:58:37 -!- lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:58:37 -!- lake [n=irchon@166.137.5.134] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:58:53 lake [n=irchon@166.137.5.134] has joined #lisp 14:00:12 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host175.201-253-14.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:00:14 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:00:15 yvdriess: 14:00:28 Does sbcl still compile with a clisp host? 14:00:47 awesome, many thanks 14:00:48 -!- quek [n=read_eva@210.253.202.182] has left #lisp 14:01:09 -!- blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:01:34 ZabaQ: I believe it's still a goal. Xof made it work last month. 14:02:05 ZabaQ: http://advogato.org/person/crhodes/diary/129.html has some info about Xof's recent work 14:02:53 I used to really like advogato until I discovered they stored their passwords in plaintext :/ 14:04:16 oh, hey, did I write that up? 14:04:17 go me 14:04:24 :D 14:04:28 hmm, that's slightly silly 14:04:40 though in fairness, it is VERY old as web applications go 14:04:54 it dates back to the time when writing a website in _C_ didn't seem totally absurd 14:05:02 no, even then it seemed absurd. 14:05:20 but raph levien is an expert at C, so who can blame him? 14:05:35 rsynnott: Amazon was still doing that until like 2006 or so. 14:05:40 Amazon used to consist of a very large C++ executable, apparently 14:05:42 ah, yep :) 14:06:02 (and Dell and various others used to use Obj-C for their websites) 14:06:15 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 14:06:17 Dell stopped the day that Apple bought NeXT, seemingly 14:06:22 Xof: is #!+foo #!+foo supposed to work everywhere, or should I remove the 4-5 occurrences of that pattern? 14:07:18 -!- lake [n=irchon@166.137.5.134] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:08:12 merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has joined #lisp 14:08:41 pkhuong: I think that's our reader macro, so it should work 14:08:44 but I can't remember 14:08:50 maybe I'll try building with clisp and xcl soon 14:09:09 herbieB: Hey. In Nekthuth, if I evaluate an (in-package ...) and then a defun, defconstant or whatever, it's still defined in common-lisp-user... Is that supposed to happen? 14:09:36 Sikander: That surprises me. 14:09:42 Apparently, C is the new ruby -> http://ediblepet.net/2009/05/23/web-applications-should-be-compile/ 14:09:53 herbieB: Basically, evaluating an (in-package) doesn't change the package :( 14:10:01 Sikander: did your in-package work? 14:10:26 sellout: It works when I just load the file in sbcl. It doesn't work when evaluating it in Nekthuth :) 14:10:34 So, writing web applications in C is going to be the next big old new thing. 14:10:58 wow, tmh 14:11:05 Xof: or #+? Most (all?) of them should be read by ours, but it might be good to avoid problems with that. 14:11:23 herbieB: could the problem be that I first evaluate the defpackage and then the in-package via Nekthuth (instead of, say, loading it from a file)? 14:11:25 Worked for me sikander. 14:11:27 Oh, Nekthuth, yeah, I'll let herbieB sort that out for you :) 14:11:29 D'oh 14:11:29 -!- Blkt [n=Blkt@host-78-13-248-154.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:11:31 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 14:11:39 -!- mega1 [n=mega@pool-03e9c.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:11:50 Sikander: If you are loading the in-package from a file...then it won't be evaluated in the top level. 14:11:51 #+ #+ is a bit more difficult, because it gets processed by the host's reader 14:11:57 #+ #!+ doesn't work at all, I think 14:11:58 antifuchs: I think he will end up learning what everyone else did when they moved on from using C and CGI for the web. 14:12:28 herbieB: I'm evaluating everything, not loading anything 14:12:35 tmh: or he'll end up with C web framework rockstardom and several book deals 14:12:37 tmh: that blog post is hilarious. 14:12:52 luis: It is definitely entertaining. 14:12:58 C on Colloquialisms 14:13:02 or something 14:13:22 Sikander: So when you do (in-package :foo), and then (print *package*) it prints out what? 14:13:24 "Web Applications Should Be Compiled" - erm, like they are in just about everything except php and ruby < 1.9? 14:13:33 they don't specify compiled what for :) 14:13:53 antifuchs: re repo.or.cz, any clue why it's 3 days late? 14:14:13 "because we need more common vulnerabilities in web applications" 14:14:14 maybe it's pregnant? *rimshot* 14:14:17 rsynnott: compiled for speed-unroll-all-loops++ 14:14:27 luis: or not enough iron. 14:14:31 pkhuong: sorry, no idea. 14:14:32 ah, gentoo syndrome 14:14:34 will investigate 14:14:35 that compiled webapp link is annoying... 14:14:45 luis: I don't get it. Maybe his premise, about server load, is wrong -- is it? 14:15:12 there's something to be said for not buying twice the hardware for the purposes of interpreting your script over and over again 14:15:20 herbieB: it prints out foo. But when I proceed to (defconstant +test+ '(1 2 3 4)) it gives me COMMON-LISP-USER::+TEST+ 14:15:21 as an example where the approach suggested in that blog post is a clear win for me: ikiwiki 14:15:31 apart from the "in C" bit 14:15:57 Xof: excluded middle lets us conclude C isn't the solution ;) 14:16:05 the cost of running the actual webapp is rarely the problem in webapps 14:16:09 the database often is 14:16:17 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-151-28.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 14:16:34 (though if you ARE using ruby on rails, webapp execution can become a problem, because ruby 1.8 is really impressively terribly slow) 14:16:37 he is shooting fish in a barrel by picking ruby 14:16:50 ... says the ruby startup programmer 14:17:02 herbieB: The annoying thing is that when in the defpackage, I e.g. (use #:parse-number), I still need to do (documentation 'parse-number:parse-number 'function) because the parse-number symbol isn't interned 14:17:13 nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:26 antifuchs: yeah, is ruby's load a problem for soup.io? 14:17:27 many RoR web applications (including one I'm very familiar with) spend /lots/ of time doing stuff to the data that the db delivers in sub-10ms times 14:17:30 herbieB: It does work, however, if I just fire up sbcl and load the file I was using in Nekthuth 14:17:44 luis: not anymore... if you tune the GC a bit, things speed up quite nicely 14:18:02 this is also why there are such great caching solutions available for RoR (-: 14:18:18 you /really/ don't want to generate semi-static content twice 14:18:46 herbieB: (sorry to be so annoying every time...) 14:19:21 ruby makes you really APPRECIATE iterating over an array :) 14:19:21 even some of the dynamic stuff. but caching is no solution, just an extension of the deadline (: 14:19:38 (if the array has 10,000 elements, there may even be a noticable pause) 14:19:49 rsynnott: also, being able to cons hundreds of megabytes in sub-700ms times 14:19:51 and the default GC is just spectacularly terrible :) 14:20:09 right on 14:21:29 oh fuck. I think I know why I had some inexplicable slowdown compared to GCC for an old compiler of mine. MOVS[SD] there too (: 14:21:47 (I'm currently involved with a largish ruby on rails project; on occasion I have resorted to using python to pull data from the db and process it for analytics purposes, because ruby was simply TOO SLOW) 14:22:03 I wonder what he would say if today's mainstream computer were a lisp machine at its core, running a C runtime on top 14:22:13 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:22:50 rsynnott: haha 14:23:01 the pain 14:23:32 it wouldn't actually be a bad development platform if ruby was even python-ish speed... 14:23:44 pkhuong: so, the project on repo.or.cz seems to be in mirror mode, and should be getting pulled 14:23:48 Sikander: Sorry, work people are othering me :P 14:23:49 but apparently it isn't 14:23:50 hm. 14:24:19 nikodemus registered it; maybe he can check if the clone URL is correct? 14:24:24 <_3b> luis: were you looking for me? also, what glut do you use that makes GL3 contexts? 14:24:33 antifuchs: it is. 14:24:51 Repository URL: git://sbcl.boinkor.net/sbcl.git 14:24:53 right, just tested 14:24:57 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:25:07 then I have no idea what could be wrong, sorry /-: 14:25:24 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 14:25:24 maybe the repo.or.cz admins could say what's going on 14:25:56 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Success] 14:26:02 herbieB: Ok, I won't bother you with this today then. Whenever you have time, could you see if you can reproduce what I have (the defconstant, defun, and specifying use in defpackage)? If you want, I can pastebin a snippet that should demonstrate my problems. 14:26:07 Sikander: I will :) 14:27:00 thanks 14:28:04 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:28:08 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 14:28:23 Numlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:29:59 -!- Numlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Client Quit] 14:30:00 _3b: interesting, I hadn't noticed that. 14:30:26 Numlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:30:28 _3b: 2.4.0-6.1ubuntu1, AFAICT 14:32:03 -!- Numlock is now known as PissedNumlock 14:33:34 <_3b> hmm, freeglut seems to be active last few months 14:33:36 _3b: yeah, I was having trouble getting cl-opengl to talk OSMesa (figure that out as you can see that email) but then I was wondering how we can support multiple contexts (e.g. using NVIDIA's libGL.so and libOSMesa.so simultaneously) 14:34:17 Sikander pasted "in-package and nekthuth" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82760 14:34:41 herbieB: ^^^ Thanks 14:35:05 -!- ausente is now known as dalton 14:37:14 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4c2a.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 14:38:19 antifuchs: problem on repo's end. Petr fixed it immediately. 14:38:23 -!- adityo_ [n=adityo@122.169.15.57] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:38:25 awesome 14:38:26 <_3b> luis: that could be messy (though we'll probably need some of that messiness to be completely correct on win32 anyway) 14:38:44 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 14:39:11 -!- joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:39:32 joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 14:40:24 <_3b> luis: would need to have extension function pointers (and get-proc-address in the osmesa case) per context, then either switch function sets when switching context, or check context before calls or something 14:41:24 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-251-238.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 14:41:25 <_3b> guess i'll have to update the cl-glut in my repo for gl3 stuff at some point too, wonder what sort of API they added for it 14:41:26 Sikander: Bad news, that paste worked just fine for me :P 14:41:26 with-opengl-context ? 14:41:57 herbieB: ?! 14:42:06 <_3b> nyef: possibly, would have to think about use cases a bit more 14:42:25 herbieB: for me in Nekthuth, common-lisp-user::*doc* and ...::+test+ are defined 14:42:27 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:42:47 herbieB: moreover, the *doc* is nil because 'parse-number isn't interned in common-lisp-user 14:42:52 Sikander: (symbol-package '*doc*) 14:43:12 Sikander: # 14:43:32 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:43:40 _3b: I was thinking that it'd be a great help with respect to threading semantics on CLX. 14:43:45 herbieB: # 14:43:45 -!- joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has left #lisp 14:43:57 _3b: something like (foreign-funcall-pointer ...)? Would that work? Would it be slow? 14:44:03 herbieB: are you evaluating each sexp in order in Nekthuth? 14:44:05 Sikander: Ah HA! 14:44:11 *Sikander* shudders 14:44:17 Sikander: When using nekthuthremote it works, when using nekthuth local it doesn't. 14:44:24 <_3b> luis: right, that would probably work, but i'd expect slow as well 14:44:27 ah... 14:44:29 Sikander: I'll fix it :) 14:44:32 herbieB: yes, I use local... 14:44:34 Sikander: I never use nekthuthlocal anymore ;P 14:44:38 <_3b> nyef: yeah, some of the same threading stuff applies for us too i think 14:44:47 herbieB: you just have a permanent lisp running somewhere, eh? 14:44:52 _3b`: what's the alternative? 14:45:02 Sikander: I have about 8 :P 14:45:23 Sikander: Go look at the source of http://katherine-anne.com sometime P 14:45:28 Sikander: Erm, test.katherine-anne.com 14:45:34 <_3b> luis: having context change be very slow, on the assumption it doesn't happen often, and change a bunch of function bindings... doesn't help with the trheading issue though 14:45:48 herbieB: wow... Hey, I'm a lisp n00b, I only open and close lisp when mucking around with it 14:47:38 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:47:51 _3b: if we maintain some sort of *context* and do some sort of memoization per function maybe it wouldn't be too slow? 14:48:43 jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 14:48:58 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 14:49:12 <_3b> luis: not sure it would need memoization, and might not actually be too bad now that i think about it more 14:49:45 Sikander: Ok, I'm gonna have to look at this package thing tonight. It is non-obiuos. 14:49:48 _3b: are you suggesting it should call getProcAddress on every call? 14:49:53 Sikander: WIll let you know :) Thanks for eltting me know :) 14:49:54 <_3b> luis: would add a special var lookup and an array lookup per call if we don't mind wasting some ram 14:50:35 herbieB: No problem. Thanks for helping me out :) 14:50:51 Meanwhile, I'll use a remote 14:50:58 so the *context* would keep an array of function pointers, right? That's what I meant by memoization. 14:51:06 <_3b> luis: ah, ok then :) 14:51:32 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@proxy.emea.fedex.com] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 14:52:13 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-193-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:52:36 So, I have a GL 3.0 setup. Who knew? Gotta try your stuff then. 14:52:46 _3b: where's the cl-opengl3 branch? 14:52:55 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:53:04 hbock [n=hbock@pool-96-253-33-184.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:35 <_3b> http://3bb.cc/tmp/darcs/cl-opengl/ i think is current (or at least close to current) 14:53:36 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has left #lisp 14:54:46 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:54:51 is there a way to force LOGNOT to use unsigned integer notation rather than two's complement? 14:55:15 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 14:55:43 hbock: LOGXOR, or LOGNOT then LOGAND? 14:56:06 egregor [n=yyyyyyyy@unaffiliated/lombard] has joined #lisp 14:56:09 jlf`` [n=user@nmd.sbx05975.petalca.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:13 hbock: what's the difference? 14:56:16 (Was it LOGXOR? Could have been something else... I use it often, but there are so many names for the fundamental operation...) 14:56:21 <_3b> luis: oops, maybe not quite current, i think that is still the slow version 14:56:27 pkhuong: One would have to mask down to a given bitwidth, surely. 14:56:44 nyef: thanks, LOGXOR with one argument works. 14:56:46 hbock: notice that lisp doesn't represent the integers in normal two's complement. 14:56:52 <_3b> wish i could remember if there was a reason for implementing it the slow way or not :/ 14:57:04 hbock: in CL, integers have an infinite number of digits. 14:57:19 "You can never be too rich, too thin, or have too many bits." 14:57:26 matimago: indeed, but these are explicitly declared to be (UNSIGNED-BYTE 32) 14:57:36 hbock: ... So? 14:57:43 *Xach* tries to figure out if this is a situation for logandc2 14:57:50 Xach: masking. 14:57:52 lognot will returnan INTEGER, so to get back an (unsigned-byte 32), use logand. 14:58:07 ahh, okay. that makes sense then. 14:58:12 And indeed, one of the log??? may do the two operations at once. 14:58:30 nyef: I think realising that what hbock wants isn't to work in something else than 2's complement is essential. 14:58:41 Bah, I really miss gitk when using darcs. 14:58:45 (logandc1 a b) == (logand (lognot a) b) 14:59:11 pkhuong: yeah. calculating broadcast addrs and the like 14:59:20 <_3b> heh, i'll be switching to git before i make any more major changes to cl-opengl :) 14:59:21 hbock: do you have an example? 14:59:22 everything needs to stay fixed-width unsigned 14:59:41 serichsen: i figured it out and it works 15:00:02 *Xach* tries to figure out if he wins or not :( 15:00:36 hbock: note that you're still working in two's complement. What you did was truncate the result to the right number of bits. 15:01:26 <_3b> luis: let me know if you need to do anything performance sensitive with my branch, too lazy to try to remember how to get this patch uploaded :) 15:01:36 wait no 15:01:39 nevermind. 15:01:42 i'm stupid. 15:01:43 <_3b> luis: (or compile without automatic error checking) 15:01:51 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 15:02:25 _3b: I still haven't learned OpenGL nor do I have a project to use it anymore. I guess I'll wait for the git tree. :-) 15:02:43 <_3b> luis: heh, ok :) 15:03:15 rlb3 [n=rlb@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:54 okay, this is essentially what I need to do 15:04:59 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-85.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:05:00 (ip & netmask) | ~netmask 15:05:28 mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 15:05:32 (logior (logand ip netmask) (lognot netmask)) does it in two's complement, which gives a garbage answer 15:05:47 hbock: wouldn't that give all ones? 15:05:56 dlowe: nope 15:05:58 hbock: really? 15:06:34 Why don't you look at the bits you're interested in? 15:07:03 Blkt [n=Blkt@host-78-13-248-154.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 15:07:16 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-dd39e1fab7327996] has joined #lisp 15:07:18 I really really need to write up modular arithmetic so that I can point people to it saying "look. this." 15:07:33 Does anyone load contrib/slime-indentation.el and if so, how well does it handle loop forms? 15:07:42 pkhuong: i get -4127194881, expecting 167772415 15:07:43 Xof: Didn't you do that already, or was that the compiler-side parts? 15:08:02 dlowe: (the C code) produces all 1s except where netmask is 1 and ip is 0, in which case 0 15:08:06 tmh: it tries to be too too smart for my taste. Why? 15:08:14 hbock: use a (logand #xFFFFFFFF) 15:08:15 I wrote something with Alexey years ago; it's kind of unfinished and not up to date 15:08:21 er, logand that and your value 15:08:26 hbock: and which bits are you interested in? Right, bits 0 to 31. Again, why don't you print those bits? (ldb (byte 32 0) ...). 15:08:33 -!- jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Success] 15:08:55 kpreid: YES 15:09:08 damn, i should've thought of that... 15:09:12 luis: I have a loop form with a few when and if conditionals that I'd like indented. 15:09:20 hbock: and as an extra bonus, the compiler can avoid bignums if you do that. 15:10:00 and, as an exercise, figure out how to represent the "unsigned" complement of 0 on a computer. 15:10:11 pkhuong: that works too 15:10:30 tmh: slime-identation will indent those for you then. 15:10:53 pkhuong: hooray for 1's complement and negative zero. 15:10:56 so, by garbage, you really mean a value that hasn't randomly dropped an infinity of bits. 15:11:04 thanks all for your help, that's much appreciated 15:11:06 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 15:11:39 by garbage, I mean an incorrect result, even if it was my own fault 15:12:03 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-251-238.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 15:12:18 -!- rlb3 [n=rlb@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"] 15:12:18 it's garbage from my perspective, whether or not that is the intent of the language design 15:12:54 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:13:27 The result was at least as correct as what you'd get in C. 15:13:45 right 15:13:59 but i had the false assumption it would truncate to 32 bits :) 15:14:19 I'd be unhappy if my 64-bit machine did that 15:14:34 For a uint32_t? I'd expect truncation in C. 15:14:35 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp154.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 15:14:42 nyef: for an integer ;) 15:14:44 nyef: exactly 15:14:55 this was explicitly defined to be (unsigned-byte 32) 15:15:11 i didn't know SBCL would 'promote' it to fixnum/bignum 15:15:13 hbock: type declarations don't affect semantics. 15:15:27 Type declarations only affect semantics when you lie to the compiler. 15:15:32 1 is also a bit. Would you expect a result truncated to 1 bit for (lognot 1) then? 15:15:45 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:16:01 yes, if I had a bit-field in C that was one bit, ~somestruct.bit1 should only flip one bit 15:16:19 it shouldn't flip all 64 bits in the aligned word 15:16:20 Does PAREDIT customize indentation or just rely on the behavior already defined? 15:16:59 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-151-28.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 15:17:15 tmh: i'm fairly certain it doesn't modify indentation 15:17:41 hbock: that's not my question. The value 1 is of type (unsigned-byte 1) in CL. SBCL will easily deduce that. Would you then expect (lognot 1) to evaluate to 0? 15:17:46 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:18:32 well, i guess that depends on whether SBCL infers the type as a bit or as an actual integer 15:18:47 i guess i'm incorrectly assuming that (unsigned-byte 1) as a type is exactly one bit 15:18:55 No, it's exactly one bit. 15:19:26 hbock: in C when you define the type of a value you define the semantics of operations on it ('operations are truncated to this many bits' etc etc). In CL, that is not true. 15:19:40 the semantics are entirely dependent on the *value* 15:19:44 kpreid: okay, that was my assumption 15:19:46 a type just specifies a subset of all possible values 15:19:57 ahhhh. that makes a LOT more sense 15:19:59 so declaring types has no effect on the behavior of the program 15:20:20 speaking of sizes, does cl have a portable way of getting the maximum range of an unboxed float? 15:20:20 okay. i guess I was assuming it would be permanently boxed to the uint32_t type 15:20:20 (unless the declarations are false, in which case it's up to the compiler and/or the current safety level to determine what happens) 15:20:41 ZabaQ: what 15:20:43 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp154.studby.uio.no] has quit [Client Quit] 15:20:52 ZabaQ: what's an unboxed float? 15:21:10 pkhuong: float that fits in a register along with it's tag? 15:21:14 Perhaps ZabaQ means 'the biggest float that fits in a word with tag) 15:21:31 Unless you have a 64-bit machine, there are probably no such floats 15:21:38 but the standard doesn't even mention tags. 15:21:56 ah 15:22:18 Once you have a guess as to which type of float you're interested in, there are constants to help you. 15:22:31 -!- abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:22:41 <_3b> you could have unboxed short-floats on 32bit, they'd probably still be slower than boxing though :) 15:23:26 kpreid: I believe some implementations have short floats by stealing a couple bits from single floats' significand. 15:23:38 _3b: I'd have thought they would be faster. Is this one of those conter-initutive gc wins? 15:23:39 abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 15:23:59 ivan-kanis [n=user@if02t2-89-83-137-164.d4.club-internet.fr] has joined #lisp 15:24:14 here are the constants to inspect: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_most_1.htm 15:24:17 _3b: depends on how well unboxed operations can be compiled. 15:24:35 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:25:18 can't you just tag by page instead of by value? 15:25:43 that implies boxedness 15:25:46 <_3b> ZabaQ: actually, thinking about it more, i'm not sure... depends on how they were implemented i guess :) 15:25:53 that's one way. You still have to figure out what to with in-register/on-stack values. 15:26:54 is the doc available as info file? 15:27:16 pkhuong: wouldn't floats always be in floating-pointer registers? 15:27:23 *point 15:27:47 milanj [n=milan@77.46.225.107] has joined #lisp 15:27:53 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@cpe-24-59-253-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:29:11 luis: not enough for polymorphism. How is the global function + to know whether its first argument is in a FP register, an integer register, or boxed in a GPR? 15:29:58 ivan-kanis: which doc? clhs? 15:30:24 -!- ejs0 [n=eugen@186-38-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:12 pkhuong: gotcha. 15:31:27 slime-indentation makes the loop form pretty, but doesn't seem to handle the keywords nicely, but doesn't handle the following lisp forms well. 15:31:48 *handles the keywords nicely, but not the following lisp forms* 15:31:49 tmh: can you paste an example? 15:32:29 tmh pasted "slime-indentation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82766 15:33:00 kpreid: the hyperpec 15:34:29 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:34:42 luis: It also has the else indented incorrectly, unless I'm abusing the if keyword after the when. 15:35:19 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:35:20 tmh: yeah, it fails pretty badly. 15:36:05 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 15:40:11 luis: I don't know that I'd be that harsh, the loop DSL is sufficiently different from sexpr's that mixing the 2 is not trivial. Anyway, this loop is convoluted because I'm having difficulty trying to describe my meshing logic to my program. 15:40:23 dlowe: so... did i remember right, is xcl your work? any news on it? 15:40:53 attila_lendvai: actually, it wasn't a serious project of mine. Feel free to take it and run with it 15:41:10 which xcl? 15:41:21 there should be an accumulate macro, inside of which a form "(collect ...)" accumulates a list 15:41:37 I renamed it to snarc a while back 15:41:45 Xof: you don't want to know... :) it's basically an alternative cl package declaration, nothing to do with X 15:41:54 although iterate presumably has something like that 15:41:58 nothing to do with the xcl implementation, either 15:42:00 with piso's x? good 15:42:07 just checking 15:42:30 attila_lendvai: rename it to snarc :) 15:42:44 dlowe: could you drop me a link for the latest you have? 15:42:54 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-40-3.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:42:55 attila_lendvai: sure. let me put it up somewhere 15:42:56 serichsen: Have a look for the definition of COLLECT in SBCL. 15:43:03 dlowe: or a reply with an attachment... 15:43:16 *dlowe* nods. 15:43:33 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:12 commmmodo [n=commmmod@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:44:24 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:44:46 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:45:31 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 15:45:32 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:45:46 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:35 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 15:47:09 grummund [n=grummund@unaffiliated/grummund] has joined #lisp 15:49:26 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 15:49:31 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@190.137.240.139] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:49:50 nyef: I can't find such a thing in the sbcl manual 15:50:03 It wouldn't be there. It's used internally. 15:50:28 -!- abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:50:29 <_8david> attila_lendvai: please help me understand object identity questions in prece 15:50:39 <_8david> Is the following a correct summary: Object identity in perec is preserved only within each transaction, and objects shouldn't usually be used across transactions, except where explicitly passed from one transaction to the other using revive-instance. 15:50:59 Looks like it's sb-int:collect, defined in src/code/early-extensions. 15:51:12 nyef: thanks, I'm looking :) 15:51:16 _8david: or load-instance. yes, that sounds like it. 15:51:20 abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 15:52:50 _8david: although i would go more explicit: Lisp VM object identity in perec is... and revive-instance is only useful when there are objects from an old, closed transaction. to cross live transaction boundaries you need to use load-instance 15:53:07 ... destructuring-bind wasn't in CLtL, was it? 15:53:30 _8david: and there is p-eq for persistent identity checking 15:54:00 -!- PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:54:11 -!- jlf`` [n=user@nmd.sbx05975.petalca.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:54:57 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 15:55:56 -!- Blkt [n=Blkt@host-78-13-248-154.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:56:01 Blkt [n=Blkt@dynamic-adsl-94-37-225-156.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 15:56:25 elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 15:56:27 deafmacro [n=user@59.92.177.119] has joined #lisp 15:56:28 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:56:31 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:09 Tordek [n=tordek@host137.190-138-149.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:57:12 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-168.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:59:42 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B269.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:52 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:04:25 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 16:05:19 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 16:06:03 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:07 demanotto [n=demanott@KD210230163150.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:08:13 -!- abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:09:00 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 16:09:22 KingThomasV [n=KingThom@76.122.37.30] has joined #lisp 16:09:28 Xach: I don't think I'm there! 16:09:51 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@kresge-37-24.resnet.ucsc.edu] has quit [] 16:11:03 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-60-183.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:12:23 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:08 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2EF1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 16:13:29 Xach: oh, I see, sorry (mixed contexts etc) 16:14:06 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:30 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:07 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:18:38 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:19:27 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 16:24:09 -!- oudeis__ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-180-104-215.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:25:53 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@76.122.37.30] has quit [No route to host] 16:26:09 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:27:07 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 16:27:52 commmmodo [n=commmmod@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:28:10 The Pirate Bay got sold: http://torrentfreak.com/the-pirate-bay-sold-to-software-company-goes-legal-090630/ 16:28:57 <_8david> Captain_Thunder: wrong channel 16:28:59 *Xach* doesn't care much about that 16:29:06 <_8david> attila_lendvai: thanks, makes sense 16:29:36 _8david, nope, I just have an image of the typical Lisp programmer as someone who's rabid about filesharing rights ;) 16:29:42 -!- Captain_Thunder is now known as Captain_Away 16:30:03 Captain_Away: i don't think that's the case 16:30:19 <_8david> attila_lendvai: Have you ever done a comparison to other ORM software? 16:31:17 <_8david> Is my understanding correct that, say, Hibernate is basically like Perec in this regard, except that Hibernate also has the concept of a session, where an object (although not its slots) would stay cached not "within a transaction", but "within a session", where a session can span multiple transactions. (Does Perec have something like that?) 16:34:50 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 16:37:06 Captain_Away: probably not atypically 16:37:18 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 16:37:48 _8david: you could probably add something like that onto cl-perec relatively easily 16:38:41 luis: It just occurred to me that I may be using an older version of SLIME and slime-indentation. 16:39:18 -!- Captain_Away is now known as Captain_Thunder 16:40:00 _8david: the pieces are there inside cl-perec, but we don't use that pattern. when we need speed then we usually just copy certain subgraphs of objects into a new transaction from a vm cache (like the persistent authenticated-session and some nodes reachable from it, to avoid an unconditional +1 on the number of sql queries for each http request) 16:41:54 <_8david> okay, I don't fully understand this "vm cache" model, but I think I'll just start doing everything without fancy cross-transaction caching and then review performance anyway. 16:42:13 *p_l* wonders why he didn't thought of using CouchDB instead of playing with Postgres ... 16:42:38 Is the FAIRLY-STABLE version of slime "fairly usable"? 16:42:48 Or should I go with HEAD? 16:43:16 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:43:28 tmh, don't go with fairly-stable. 16:43:40 hasn't been updated in a looong time. 16:43:46 (I had this same question a while back...) 16:43:53 <_8david> attila_lendvai: dumb question: How can I delete an object/row? 16:44:15 Ah, good to know. I think I have HEAD anyway. There don't appear to be any tags on my copy. 16:44:16 <_8david> I've found functions to DELETE entire table contents, but not DELETE ... WHERE specific rows. 16:46:01 _8david: see purge-instance 16:46:44 i'm not sure about the query compiler... we don't delete anything from the db. but if it's there then there are unit tests for it 16:47:48 vm cache = a bunch of dead objects kept in a global from a previous transaction 16:52:24 <_8david> Hmm. Can't use empty strings in slots typed STRING with the Oracle backend. 16:52:28 <_8david> I see what you meant when you mentioned that the Oracle backend isn't as well tested as the Postmodern backend. It basically works, but has little issues at various places. 16:52:55 <_8david> I guess I'll have to start reading up on OCI and all those ORA-NNNNNN codes. (Please tell me there's a secret Oracle option to make it distinguish '' from NULL!) 16:53:10 _8david: fixes are very welcome! :) 16:53:13 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 16:53:39 _8david: and even only failing tests if the fix itself seems to be too hard 16:54:24 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:54:31 _8david: no, there isn't. i think it's an sql standard thing that '' === null 16:54:44 ew 16:55:08 <_8david> Well, no other database does that, so who cares what the ansi standard says or doesn't say? :-) 16:55:43 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@cpe-24-59-253-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:55:50 another problem i remember with oracle is that it has no boolean type. so we need to use a char[1] column for booleans, which means that you can't have char[1] user columns (i think it's not done yet though) 16:55:51 <_8david> attila_lendvai: I can usually come up with test cases and fixes that "work for me", but of those fixes so far aren't good enough for upstream cl-perec, that much I know. 16:55:56 I would rather question the standard in this case 16:55:59 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@cpe-24-59-253-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:57:13 This is not true for all database implementations. In an Oracle RDBMS for example NULL and the empty string are considered the same thing and therefore 'Fish ' || NULL || 'Chips' results in 'Fish Chips' 16:58:25 can you not love oracle...? :) it goes straight against the standard according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Null_(SQL) 16:58:31 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit ["Be back later"] 16:58:37 but then a string field should also be able to hold a null value 16:59:26 I shouldn't be surprised that people still use Oracle, given that I have the oracle client software installed for work purposes, but... People still use Oracle?!? 16:59:49 <_8david> nyef: it's an industry standard! 16:59:51 i think you can force oracle to store a null in a string field using bindings and a special null marker... but i'm so happy with postgresql that i don't really care about that mammoth corporation... 16:59:57 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 17:00:17 Every once in a while, I come across the Common Lisp Cookbook. It's not been updated since 2007. Maybe we could migrate it to CLiki or some other wiki and maintain it more often? The only motivation for not using CLiki would be to have more editorial control over changes. 17:00:31 _8david: Yes. "industry". As in "keeping busy". 17:00:33 _8david: talking about industry standards while using a lisp ORM?! 17:00:38 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.23.22] has joined #lisp 17:00:39 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:01:10 "Besides, isn't the industry standard Lisp ORM from Franz?" 17:01:13 <_8david> yes, the other part of "industry standard" is "Enterprise Java Beans", and we're already having enough trouble because we've had to explain that Lisp != EJB. 17:01:14 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 17:01:30 (locally (declare (special x)) (let ((x 12)) (eval 'x))) 17:01:34 what is the correct result of that 17:01:37 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 17:01:56 smoofra: The programmer getting hit? 17:02:21 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 17:02:21 *attila_lendvai* will leave soon 17:02:31 I'm going to go with an unbound variable on X, though. 17:02:39 *luis* stares at the letters 'EJB' and throws up little in his mouth 17:02:46 But I'm not entirely certain. 17:02:47 hm, well, x *is* bound 17:02:59 the question is whether (eval 'x) is a special lookup 17:03:08 oh oops 17:03:18 yea, it's not a special lookup 17:03:28 Of course it's a special lookup. 17:04:03 (locally (declare (special x)) (let ((x 12)) (list x (eval '(locally (declare (special x)) x))))) 17:04:04 nope, actually, it seems 17:04:06 still unbound 17:04:09 clhs 3.1.2.1.1.2 17:04:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_abaab.htm 17:04:31 smoofra: maybe you wanted (let ((x 12)) (declare (special x)) (eval 'x)) instead? 17:04:50 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:05:01 luis: no i know how that one is supposed to work 17:05:21 kpreid: I'd think that contradicted by the definitions of null lexical environment and EVAL. 17:05:47 smoofra: what's the goal then? 17:05:56 nyef: the spec for (declare special) explicitly says that new bindings aren't affected. 17:06:02 got to go 17:06:02 it looks like homework exercises 17:06:10 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 17:06:11 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:17 serichsen: does it? 17:06:57 aaah i see what's going on i think 17:06:59 hi 17:07:00 pkhuong: The LET? Yeah, I figured that would shadow the specialness. And the only way for it not to is if the declare is immediately within the LET. 17:07:16 let can shadow a special binding that was introduced by a locally 17:07:31 but not a global special binding introduced by defvar 17:07:37 ... Umm... LOCALLY can't introduce a binding. 17:07:38 is that how it works? 17:07:52 smoofra: what nyef said. 17:07:59 nyef: (locally (declare (special x)) ....) you wouldn't call that a binding 17:08:01 ? 17:08:07 smoofra: no. 17:08:07 No, it's a local declaration. 17:08:19 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B269.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:08:45 A binding is introduced by an arglist, m-v-b, destructuring-bind, progv, let, flet, let*, labels, macrolet, symbol-macrolet, etc. 17:09:30 hrm i suppose you're right 17:09:30 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:09:49 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 17:09:54 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:14 so LET can shadow a variable that's declared special, but only if it's a lexical declaration? 17:11:32 Exactly. 17:13:14 http://www.franz.com/support/documentation/8.0/doc/operators/system/augment-environment.htm 17:13:58 OK, so do you suppose will be "visible as bound variables in the new environment" implies a lexical binding? 17:14:33 or should augment-environment do the same thing let does: refuse to shadow a defvar 17:14:40 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@wirenat-eld.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:17:18 gnu common lisp implementation is the ansi common lisp? 17:17:48 Edico, GNU CLisp conforms to ANSI CL standards, yes. 17:18:08 thanks, that I wanted to know 17:18:14 Edico: Do you mean CLisp, or GCL? 17:18:21 clisp 17:18:39 yeah, the other one is not very compliant. 17:18:51 minion, tell Edico about common lisp implementation 17:18:53 Edico: please look at common lisp implementation: Free Common Lisp implementations and their *features*. http://www.cliki.net/common%20lisp%20implementation 17:20:04 smoofra: I would expect, given the lack of an "unspecial" declaration, that variables not globally proclaimed as special would be lexical. 17:20:11 -!- ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has left #lisp 17:20:25 (Unless overridden by the DECLARE parameter, of course.) 17:20:39 Err... Wait, -what-? 17:20:55 -special operator- names?!? 17:21:07 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:02 You realize that this document is crap, right? 17:22:20 *p_l* found an interesting use for DataMapper which might be interesting to reuse in CL... as DB design tool 17:22:22 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:22:34 p_l: nice one. 17:23:21 p_l: what is datamapper? 17:23:36 pkhuong: basicallly, I have a file in Emacs where I write some simple Ruby class definitions with DM, rerun it and observe changes in postgres :D 17:23:45 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-99.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:47 rsynnott: Ruby ORM, much nicer than famous ActiveRecord 17:23:51 nyef: yea franz added their own weird extension to it 17:23:59 -!- phearle [n=phearle@c-24-63-120-211.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:24:04 Ok, sbcl threads and *package* is confusing me :) 17:24:22 My complaint is that a list of special -operators- is supposed to indicate which variables are declared special. 17:25:00 And it's been that way for a while, given the "unchanged since whenever" notice in the top right corner. 17:25:07 *Xach* is sad to find that :|Foo| :|Bar| C-M-t isn't working properly for him 17:25:12 p_l: wouldn't be that hard ;) 17:25:24 ah, found it, yep 17:25:46 -!- _8david [n=user@77-22-106-191-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:25:49 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:26:05 *gigamonk`* is happy to see Xach back on #lisp!!! 17:26:11 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey` 17:26:19 phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 17:26:35 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-dcf2329c87f44816] has joined #lisp 17:26:39 So if I define some function b as follows: (defun b () (print *package*) (in-package :nekthuth)) 17:26:47 And I run it, and I print *package*, I get nekthuth, which is right 17:26:48 -!- gigamonkey` is now known as gigamonkey 17:26:54 hi gigamonkey 17:27:07 Yo. Back from fishing? 17:27:09 If, however, I run it via a thread: (sb-thread:make-thread #'b), my global *package* variable remains unchanged. 17:27:22 Which confuses me, but we'll go with it. 17:27:52 But, the second time i do (sb-thread:make-thread #'b), the (print *package*) call within #'b says :nekthuth, not :cl-user 17:27:53 I don't know which implementation to choose 17:27:54 herbieB: dynamic bindings arne't inherited by new threads. 17:28:05 pkhuong: Which is why I'm confused. 17:28:08 rsynnott: it's quite nice, though it's a pity it doesn't directly support PostgreSQL enums 17:28:09 what drawbacks has clisp 17:28:10 Xach: I'm probabably going to be using one of those subtitles you sent me, long ago. 17:28:15 pkhuong: The global *package* should have been modified? 17:28:17 So yet again you'll be on the cover of my book. 17:28:31 herbieB: depends on whether *package* has been rebound before or not. 17:28:46 Edico: no threads, rather slow compared to sbcl et al for most purposes, and possible license issues 17:28:51 if you modify *package* in a fresh thread, then you'll modify the global binding. 17:28:52 pkhuong: It has not. 17:28:57 how do you know? 17:29:02 p_l: is it postgres only? 17:29:12 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:29:21 gigamonkey: oh, i'm happy to hear it. 17:29:22 pkhuong: I may not know, let me be more vanilla. 17:30:03 I put sbcl 17:30:10 rsynnott: no, it's generic and rather modular 17:31:14 rsynnott: but unlike ActiveRecord it doesn't suffer from "MySQL is King" worldview 17:33:02 herbieB pasted "packageconfusion" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82777 17:33:21 pkhuong: That output cnofuses me. 17:33:40 p_l: As opposed to the "MySQL is Court Jester" worldview? 17:34:33 *luis* curses at gencgc's scavenging of regions that are still open :-/ 17:34:39 nyef: as opposed to "if you're using RDBMS, it can at least check validity of relations and data" :P 17:34:44 Heh. My book Coders at Work is following a tradition started by the Paris Review when the interviewed novelist E.M. Forster in 1953. 17:34:55 One of the guys who did that interview was a friend of Alan Turing. 17:35:05 herbieB, what is confusing? It seems as though the new threads go into package :foo while your main thread stays in CL-USER 17:35:20 would you want the new threads to alter the package for the main thread? 17:35:24 Adlai: Yes, but why the second time I boot the thread is the print returning foo 17:35:46 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-146-225.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:35:47 And the other interviewer's name was Haskell. Weird. 17:35:48 ah, hm. That *is* confusing. 17:36:03 Adlai: And yes, I would like it to modify the global *package* variable as that's how it works with other global variables. 17:36:38 Adlai: Even if you have a different lexical scope when you boot the thread, the global instances of the variables get modified by new threads unelss you establish a local scope within them. 17:36:46 Adlai: Whcih is how I would like this to work for consistency's sake. 17:36:47 herbieB, maybe look at the expansion of (in-package :pak) and modify the global variable yourself... in looks as though maybe there are some "thread safety" layers in (in-package) 17:37:00 -!- phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 17:37:35 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-60-183.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:37:47 herbieB: notice that in-package does setq *package*. If there's a (let ((*package* ...)) ...) surrounding, then it's this variable that will be set, not the global one. And for a thread, there's such a binding. 17:38:03 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.120.101] has joined #lisp 17:38:11 When you create the thread, you can specify what special variable must be bound specifically for the thread. 17:38:11 well ACL lets you shadow a defvar with augment-environment 17:38:22 pjb, would it work to setf symbol-value? 17:38:26 Yes. 17:38:31 does anyone know of any other lisps that implement augment-environment, variable-information, etc 17:38:32 ?? 17:38:35 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-110-242.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:38:38 pjb: Threads have an implicit local binding for *package*? 17:38:46 smoofra: sbcl has a sb-cltl2 contrib 17:38:47 evidently... 17:38:52 herbieB: I think so, yes. 17:39:03 pjb: Is there any other variables that this is true for? I can work around this one, it was just surprising. 17:39:03 herbieB, I think they do in Bordeaux-threads, at least. 17:39:26 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:40:27 luis: i guess i should have said my reason for asking: i'm working on some patches for sb-cltl2 17:40:35 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Special-Variables.html#Special-Variables 17:41:07 pjb: If that were true, then the global *package* would be changed when I called #'b from within the thread. 17:41:25 pjb: Unless the actual main thread has a different *package* than the global world? 17:41:32 -!- Ogedei [n=user@85.178.220.113] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:41:43 herbieB: actually, it seems it depends on the calling thread. By default, there's no LET, so you should go to the global variable. But if you use slime, there could be a specific thread, so the *package* in that thread won't be the global variable. 17:41:46 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 17:42:18 pjb: OOOoo, I bet that's it, I bet the initial thread has it's own lexically bound version of *package* 17:42:29 mudballs development is gone? 17:42:31 pjb: So the make-thread is affecting the global one, which doesn't get carried down to the intiial-thread 17:42:53 tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296b3d.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:42:54 yep 17:43:19 herbieB, that would also explain why (print *package*) in the "main" thread printed a thread-local value rather than the global one. 17:43:20 So the question remains, are there any other variables that get shadowed when booting up the main thread? 17:43:26 Adlai: RRight. 17:44:05 I guess I'll find out that answer through trial and error :P 17:44:11 herbieB: Are you using slime? 17:44:21 pjb: This is for nekthuth, so...no :P 17:44:53 -!- davazp [n=user@79.153.148.56] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:45:03 I can't help cringing every time I see the "word" nekthuth 17:45:12 Well, is it using swank. It would be swank that would create the threads. 17:45:28 Xach: It's a fun play on words :) Nexus is a synonm for "Connection" so, Nekthuth: Connection with a lisp :P 17:45:37 pjb: It is not using swank. I rewrote swank :P 17:45:50 What was wrong with swank? 17:46:01 pjb: It relies too much on having elisp handy. 17:46:09 ok. 17:46:17 pjb: As well as no good documentation on how to build an alternative frontend. 17:46:23 herbieB: oh, i get it, and hate it. 17:46:24 minion: tell me about nekthuth 17:46:25 Xach: you weren't here the other day for my suggestion of a name for a fork of Pascal Costanza's Closer project: Clother--same idea, more Lispy. 17:46:25 Adlai: please look at nekthuth: Nekthuth: Connection with a Lisp Nekthuth is the combination of a vim plugin and a common lisp library which enables vim users to start up or connect to a CL interpreter inside vim, and do interesting things with it. http://www.cliki.net/nekthuth 17:46:32 *Xach* shudders 17:46:40 sorry Xach :) 17:46:41 herbieB: Well, then your CL side of Nekthuth should know what thread it creates and in what dynamic environment. You control it. 17:46:53 pjb: True, but how I play with those threads was confusing me. 17:47:08 pjb: When I boot up the CL side from inside the vim process, I don't create a subthread for it, whcih means it's living in the main-thread 17:47:15 Heh, that name is terrible. 17:47:38 luis, which one, Nekthuth... or Lisp? :D 17:47:58 pjb: And thus this all started. When I use the remote part of nekthuth, it all works because I'm not doing any shadowing of *package* like main0-thread does. 17:48:13 pjb: But this means that all conncetions to nekthuth from multiple vims will share the same *package* which I'm not sure I want anyway. 17:48:19 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:37 herbieB: indeed, you may not want that: each buffer has its own current package. 17:48:49 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:55 pjb: Right. I was going to deal with buffer package management in .4, but I may dealw ith some of it now. 17:49:04 -!- bombshelter13_ is now known as bombshelter13_lu 17:49:07 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has quit [] 17:49:16 -!- bombshelter13_lu is now known as bombshelter13afk 17:49:43 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-147-197.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 17:50:02 Say it's an acronym: N.E.K.T.H.U.T.H = Network Evolved Konnection To Highly Useful Trendy Hoftware :-) 17:50:19 Nah, I prefer the current pun :P 17:50:40 *Xach* thinks back on the original name of the boston lisp mailing list, "bothton" 17:50:55 Though I was thinking of renaming it to JUE, Juse Use Emacs 17:51:00 :-) 17:51:10 haha 17:51:11 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:51:17 Or: NINE Is Not Emacs 17:51:23 Ha. 17:51:34 NINS? 17:51:43 Perhaps, yes. 17:51:48 NINSLIME, just fully expand it? 17:51:55 heheh 17:51:55 TEN = Ten Extends Nine 17:51:58 next? 17:52:08 The best part of nekthuth is putting it on my resume, and hearing people try to pronounce it in interviews. 17:52:32 ELEVEN Left Eins Very Elated Now 17:53:27 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.23.22] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:54:00 TWELVE wins -- ELEVEN's lossage virtually eliminated 17:55:12 THIRTEEN Helps Implement Relevant Thoughts Except Emulating NINE 17:56:19 Anyway, thanks for the help guys. I know what has to be done now :) 17:56:39 But after you come up with a new name what are you going to do? 17:57:46 -!- merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has quit [] 17:59:24 -!- tobetchi_ [n=tobetchi@p296be5.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:02:42 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:02:56 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 18:03:28 Hmm, is there some way to set a breakpoint in the sbcl runtime using gdb? 18:03:31 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-66-250.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:05:52 commmmodo [n=commmmod@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 18:06:26 argh 18:06:33 nekthuth 18:06:39 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:06:50 argh? 18:07:10 argh is german for "ugh" 18:07:18 i am slow today 18:07:30 I understood the meaning :P 18:07:39 BUt I cannot understand why anyone would say ugh about nekthuth :P 18:07:46 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:07:51 I just "got" the name 18:07:59 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 18:08:06 herbieB, you're right, they'd just saw "ew, grothth" 18:08:39 Adlai: That's the idea! 18:10:13 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-7-109.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:55 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-9-66.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:14:36 jao [n=jao@94.Red-88-6-161.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:19 semyon421 [n=semyon@195.54.6.106] has joined #lisp 18:15:32 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:17:35 luis: gencgc has the invariant that all the regions are closed when a GC is entered. 18:17:35 hmm. stackoverflow.com could be used for a little cl pr campaign 18:17:57 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:18:36 pkhuong: yes but it opens its own regions. 18:18:41 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 18:18:45 serichsen, in what sense? 18:19:04 pkhuong: and AFAICT sometimes scavenges them while they're still open. 18:19:07 luis: and that messes with your stuff? That's sort of how cheney works ;) 18:20:00 I think it does. But I'm not sure. 18:20:24 wbraun [n=Blinder@p5B203C6D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:21:17 -!- Guest60352 is now known as lexa_ 18:21:34 btw, another fun GC project would be to modify it to allow consistent EQ hashing. 18:21:46 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest73527 18:22:14 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-110-242.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:22:57 I've got one interesting approach that shouldn't have too bad space overhead so far. 18:23:27 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 18:23:48 -!- deafmacro [n=user@59.92.177.119] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:24:16 Adlai: ask questions there, about common lisp, about specific libraries etc. 18:24:28 Adlai: and not just beginner questions 18:24:44 -!- bobf_ [n=bob@host86-146-215-63.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:24:51 serichsen, there's already places like #lisp and c.l.l ... 18:24:55 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 18:25:01 serichsen: so basically organised adding of hi-quality questions and answers? :D 18:25:10 p_l: yes 18:25:15 Adlai: I'm not sure if I would recommend c.l.l to anyone 18:25:16 serichsen: although I guess that this is more "hip" than IRC and Usenet :D 18:25:39 the point is, I think that it has a higher profile in the corporate world 18:25:46 Adlai: and #lisp won't be visited by someone who haven't already done some research 18:25:50 c.l.l has some informative threads (although usually the really informative threads are at a high level), and it has some really funny trolls. 18:26:08 so, more people would just see that common lisp is in serious use 18:26:19 stackoverflow otoh is rather high profile, it seems, and would allow to target groups that might not even heard of lisp 18:26:39 hm. So basically, we should encourage people to post their questions to stackoverflow rather than here? 18:26:43 * or both 18:26:46 You coudl start by having a CL "hidden features" page that a lot of other languages have. 18:26:49 or both ;) 18:26:59 I saw some metablogs show up on the 'sphere a week ago or so. 18:27:06 yeah, i saw that too 18:27:09 ? 18:27:32 Adlai: like this: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/61088/hidden-features-of-javascript 18:27:33 i am just not very convinced of the concept of "hidden features" 18:27:47 ah ok. 18:27:51 Whatever you want to call it. 18:28:10 To be sure, all features in CL are hidden :P 18:28:18 Well, CL probably wouldn't have a hidden-features... I think more appropriate for a Lisp would be facepalmingly obvious utilities. 18:28:32 (that weren't included in CLtL) 18:28:57 I guess that calling it "hidden features" is just a marketing gag, to make reading more interesting 18:29:00 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:29:28 feel like a bit of brainstorming? 18:29:57 (for "features" / utilities that would look professional, hip, and sexy on that site) 18:30:55 actually, here's a "hidden" feature in CL which I don't think many n00bs know about... 18:31:07 it's twofold 18:31:29 the whole with-foo set of macros, such as w-o-t-s 18:31:41 and the ability to define your own 18:31:50 It's hidden in its transparency. 18:31:51 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-6.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:32:03 splittist [n=dmurray@80.169.130.126] has joined #lisp 18:32:08 jmbr [n=jmbr@222.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:32:13 I'll take my memos now, thank you, minion 18:32:22 doh! 18:32:31 splittist: ? 18:32:55 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:32:56 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:37 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 18:33:42 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:00 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-168.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 18:34:02 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-147-197.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:34:30 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@cpe-24-59-253-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:34:35 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:34:51 minion: memo for Adlai: it is possible to leave memos for people. Of course, no one ever leaves any for me. 18:34:51 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 18:34:52 Remembered. I'll tell Adlai when he/she/it next speaks. 18:35:26 -!- semyon421 [n=semyon@195.54.6.106] has quit ["leaving"] 18:35:37 lol 18:35:39 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 18:35:39 Leave one for yourself. 18:35:57 minion: memo for me: Remember to leave yourself a memo! 18:35:57 Remembered. I'll tell me when he/she/it next speaks. 18:35:58 Adlai, memo from Adlai: Remember to leave yourself a memo! 18:36:08 meh... That wasn't too successful. 18:36:48 on the other hand... 18:37:17 nope, private messages don't work better. 18:38:23 So, there apparently were traces of CL bindings for Clutter. 18:38:25 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:38:49 Alas, all I'm seeing is a lonely paste.. 18:41:57 jyujin [n=mdeining@82.113.121.112] has joined #lisp 18:42:44 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:26 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:44:01 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:20 -!- Guest73527 is now known as lexa_ 18:44:35 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 18:44:50 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest34404 18:44:59 Unfortunately turbo24prg didn't publish it.. 18:45:25 If I'm not mistaken about him being the author, even.. 18:45:49 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:46:55 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [] 18:47:09 -!- Guest34404 is now known as lexa_ 18:47:14 schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-067-229-204.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:22 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:47:39 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest54275 18:47:44 -!- schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-067-229-204.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 18:48:01 asksol [n=ask@062016247173.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 18:48:15 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:49:26 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-99.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:49:34 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-99.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:33 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:16 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit ["installing firefox 3.5"] 18:51:35 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4c2a.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:53:49 younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:54:09 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:47 -!- Guest54275 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 18:57:00 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:13 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:29 rlb3 [n=rlb@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:44 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4c2a.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 19:04:30 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@222.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:07:43 astalla [n=astalla@93-36-227-147.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:07:55 c|mell [n=cmell@p28230-ipngn101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:08:37 francogre [n=franco@11.60-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:08:39 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 19:10:51 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-85.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:12:12 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:13:39 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:56 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:28 mjf [n=mjf@r11gz66.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 19:16:35 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:17:59 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:18:26 -!- rlb3 [n=rlb@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"] 19:18:42 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:54 -!- Guest34419 is now known as pragma_ 19:21:25 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@i016104.gprs.dnafinland.fi] has joined #lisp 19:22:04 good evening 19:23:09 good evening, nikodemus :) 19:25:31 hi nikodemus 19:26:44 we started a series of hate threads in a newsgroup when I asked whther axiom was better than maxima as a common lisp based computer algebra system. 19:27:05 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-49-126.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:29:04 any volunteers for debugging sbcl snow leopard build failures? 19:30:03 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 19:30:18 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 19:30:20 simard [n=user@pcms05.grm.polymtl.ca] has joined #lisp 19:30:24 nikodemus: at least we have some idea what's going on. 19:30:32 Only a toolchain issue 19:30:52 schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-067-229-204.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:30 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-23-20.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:33:13 *nyef* kicks off a win32 build. 19:33:27 Jabberwockey [n=jens@82.113.121.86] has joined #lisp 19:34:06 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:34:16 clhs typep 19:34:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_typep.htm 19:34:37 -!- simard [n=user@pcms05.grm.polymtl.ca] has left #lisp 19:34:53 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:59 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:36:10 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 19:36:13 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has quit [] 19:36:14 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:36:28 -!- ice_four [n=ice_four@81.152.115.7] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:36:41 Hunh. 19:37:04 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-145-188.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:38:14 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:56 momerath42 [n=momerath@rrcs-70-60-90-159.central.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:39:57 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:40:34 lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 19:40:45 pkhuong: sure, but without the toolchain it's a bit hard to fix 19:41:13 *Xach* tries to find cheap flights to amsterdam, fails 19:41:29 ryanair? 19:41:49 Cheap flights are to be bought 9 months in advance... 19:42:03 Or go to the airport and wait for an empty plane. 19:42:07 DrForr: heh, ryanair does transatlantic filghts now? 19:42:20 *Xach* is on the correct side of the atlantic 19:42:28 pjb: depends on what you mean by "cheap" 19:42:32 Not that I'm aware of, I took it from Luton to Schipol... 19:42:49 -!- bombshelter13afk is now known as bombshelter13_ 19:43:03 Xach: oh, are you in Europe? 19:43:10 would ECLM be accessible to complete Lisp noobs like me+ 19:43:10 ? 19:43:45 Yes, the point is more to put faces on names or nicknames. 19:44:32 hm 19:44:40 luis: nice try! 19:44:43 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 19:45:02 *Adlai* has plenty of time to register until August 15th... we'll see. 19:45:37 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-207.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:46:51 Xach: well, the correct side of the atlantic for the ECLM is definitely Europe. :-) 19:46:59 having driven into London from Luton this morning, I can't believe it is much further away than Maine... 19:47:35 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:47:39 Hrmm, maybe I can extend my vacation for two weeks, and just ditch the Frankfurt->Boston leg of my return flight. 19:47:40 splittist: we cross continents by car over here ;) 19:49:42 Xach: I've had some luck with skyscanner.net in the past. 19:49:56 Are there any other languages that exhibit Lisp-2 or Lisp-N properties? 19:49:57 In Europe* we have to use high-speed trains... [* obviously Britain is excepted] 19:49:58 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-85.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:50:21 splittist: what about the EuroStar? 19:51:40 serichse1: It's faster than it was on the western side of the ditch, but... 19:51:45 fly fly fly 19:52:02 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 19:52:09 *splittist* is still recovering from the tube at 30C+ this evening... 19:52:25 Modius: many other languages use context to similar effect 19:52:27 splittist: 'the tube' ? 19:52:45 splittist: metro? 19:53:04 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@81.173.145.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:53:09 in fact, I think in most major languages, you can have a variable and a function with the same name 19:53:09 I think that "the tube" is a name for the london underground 19:53:14 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 19:53:17 Jasko3: I'd like some examples - I was discussing where there was a lot of lisp-1 in languages, couldn't think of any lisp-n (other than keywords like "class" which are just reserved words everywhere else that conceals the distinction) 19:53:43 Xach: the key is to add on lots of vital Erpeen meetings to the Hamburg-fest. Surely there are telcos in Erp you could pretend to visit? 19:53:45 serichsen: yes, but not at the same time. 19:54:05 Modius: class versus function name is common, I believe. 19:54:07 in C#, I can have a function named Thingy of type Thingy, and then assign it the value of the variable Thingy 19:54:20 s/function/property 19:54:21 does anyone know what font MCL ide used? I'm looking for the genera-lookalike one :) 19:54:25 pjb: huh? 19:54:34 madnificent: Yes - tube in LON; metro in PAR; MTR in HKG; MRT in SGP (?) 19:54:38 (although naming a variable Thingy rather than thingy would break convention) 19:54:55 Jasko3: I always thought that was a bit grey though, as you can also pass in the function directly as an R-value. 19:55:20 serichsen: Try to compile in C: int f(int x){return x;} void g(){ int f=42; f(f); } 19:55:38 non-lisps tend not to have the whole concept of symbols, so the issues don't come up in quite the same manner 19:55:54 pjb: sorry, you seem to confuse my nickname :) 19:55:56 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:56:45 serichsen: oops. It was Jasko3. Sorry. 19:57:41 splittist: shouldn't have taken that long, it goes fairly quick in london (if I remember it correctly) 19:57:59 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:20 -!- demanotto [n=demanott@KD210230163150.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:59:11 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has quit [] 19:59:31 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 19:59:32 pjb: what's that code do? Make the compiler cry? 19:59:44 Yes. 20:00:04 adlai_ [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 20:00:06 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.120.101] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:00:09 Jasko3: even: int f(int x){return x;} int g(){ int f=42; return f; } will issue warning. 20:00:20 ejs0 [n=eugen@183-46-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:33 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:00:38 -!- Adlai is now known as adlai 20:00:44 -!- adlai is now known as adlai- 20:00:51 -!- adlai_ is now known as Adlai 20:00:55 pjb, so are we calling C a lisp-1, then? 20:01:04 or in C++: struct foo {}; void bar () { foo bar; foo bar(); } 20:01:07 Right. 20:02:27 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:02:27 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-99.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:02:31 well, I'd mark C# down as a lisp-2+, then. I've certainly done things like: public Node Node { get; set; } 20:02:39 That's funny, I'm working on a C compiler that will add Lisp-style macros to C. 20:02:45 not sure about Java, but I imagine it's the same 20:03:23 You'd never know just how useful a homoiconic syntax is until you try to port macros to a language without it... 20:04:16 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:28 -!- adlai- [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["switching clients"] 20:05:40 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@204.194.78.3] has quit [] 20:05:55 shanmu [n=chatzill@client-86-27-63-173.brhm.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:58 Captain_Thunder: Why not just use a sexpr->C translator? There's at least one out there. 20:06:25 Well, the idea is that the C programmer doesn't have to write any Lisp, only C. 20:06:29 nyef, I think the point is to give C the power of macros. 20:06:31 -!- wbraun [n=Blinder@p5B203C6D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:06:32 Ah. 20:06:37 Right. 20:07:14 By the power of Greyskull, you now have macros! 20:07:18 That's actually one of the reasons I started using Lisp. I started getting really bad with my cpp abuse. 20:07:36 Captain_Thunder: Dave Moon gave a talk about adding real macros to languages with syntax. Don't know if anything is published, though. 20:07:39 -!- hbock [n=hbock@pool-96-253-33-184.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:08:20 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:08:31 Well, it's not like it's really hard to grasp, it's just the code that you write for macros will necessarily be more cumbersome than in a sexpr language. 20:08:51 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-173-109.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:10:22 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.119.21] has joined #lisp 20:12:43 nikodemus: For what it's worth, I just built 1.0.29.54.rc1 on win32. Only thing reported as wrong is that sb-simple-streams failed to build, and that strikes me as normal. 20:13:27 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["leaving"] 20:14:08 danlei [n=user@pD9E2EF1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:16 adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 20:14:52 -!- adlai is now known as Adlai 20:16:23 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [] 20:16:29 -!- sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has quit [] 20:16:32 nikodemus: do you think that define-declaration should attach to names, or to bindings 20:16:38 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node102.html 20:16:50 cltl2 seems to say it attaches to names 20:17:17 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:17:21 is sbcl cvs down? 20:17:23 -!- ivan-kanis [n=user@if02t2-89-83-137-164.d4.club-internet.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:17:44 but it seems like in (let (x) (declare (mydecl x)) (let (x) ...)) the second let should shadow (declare (mydecl x)) 20:17:52 shanmu: Unless you're hoping to commit, you may as well just use the git mirror. 20:18:12 nyef: thanks, what is the git mirror? 20:18:13 (Even if the CVS isn't down.) 20:18:34 -!- astalla [n=astalla@93-36-227-147.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:36 nyef: I am using clbuild 20:18:45 Oh. 20:19:03 I'm not certain about clbuild customization. 20:19:10 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:19:12 I think I can change that to point to git 20:19:37 I use git://sbcl.boinkor.net/sbcl.git for my remote. 20:19:47 nyef: its usually one line change in the projects file 20:19:58 *nyef* sighs. 20:20:10 That, or which is now mirroring boinkor correctly again. 20:20:10 Where's the argument type checking stuff in alien-funcall hiding? 20:21:41 commmmodo [n=commmmod@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:21:56 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:19 -!- francogre [n=franco@11.60-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has left #lisp 20:22:51 pstickne [n=pstickne@24.21.76.57] has joined #lisp 20:23:03 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@80.169.130.126] has quit ["spooky"] 20:24:36 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:25:22 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["Changing server"] 20:25:33 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:56 lombard_ [n=yyyyyyyy@unaffiliated/lombard] has joined #lisp 20:28:58 -!- schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-067-229-204.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:31:02 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 20:31:41 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-147-197.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 20:32:43 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:33:08 lombard__ [n=yyyyyyyy@189.107.34.17] has joined #lisp 20:34:37 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-85.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:35:42 smoofra: "If the first value is :variable or :function then the second value must be a list, the elements of which are lists of the form (binding-name key value). If the corresponding information function (either variable-information or function-information) is applied to the binding-name and the augmented environment, the a-list returned by the information function as its third value will contain the value under the specified key. " 20:35:51 sounds like shadowing to me 20:35:57 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:36:10 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:24 i think shadowing is clearly the more correct and usefull thing to 20:36:26 thing to do 20:37:23 yes. i don't see how to read cltl2 in a way that implies that :variable and :function declarations weren't shadowed normally 20:38:22 lombard_1 [n=yyyyyyyy@189.107.87.139] has joined #lisp 20:38:36 ok i'm going to fix define-declaration to shadow then 20:40:39 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 20:43:19 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 20:43:58 astalla [n=astalla@93-36-226-118.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 20:43:59 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 20:44:02 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r11gz66.net.upc.cz] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:44:20 -!- lombard_1 [n=yyyyyyyy@189.107.87.139] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:44:26 lombard_1 [n=yyyyyyyy@189.107.40.47] has joined #lisp 20:44:34 -!- egregor [n=yyyyyyyy@unaffiliated/lombard] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:44:53 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["leaving"] 20:45:12 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-147-197.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:45:34 Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 20:47:13 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:35 -!- lombard_ [n=yyyyyyyy@unaffiliated/lombard] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:47:56 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-84-151.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:48:35 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-110-242.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:49:18 Hunh. It looks like my hgdiobj stuff actually might not do anything egregiously wrong, semantically, but the generated code is horrendous. 20:49:39 An especially nice touch is boxing a value in order to check its boxed type. 20:50:09 heheheh 20:50:16 (Which, don't get me wrong, does involve an alien-funcall to determine the type, but still...) 20:50:25 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-146-225.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:52:37 -!- lombard__ [n=yyyyyyyy@189.107.34.17] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:54:40 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-25-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:56:30 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:41 Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:58:27 does anyone here has problems with metacopy-with-contextl while compiling cl-perec? 20:58:55 bob_f [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 21:00:31 -!- ejs0 [n=eugen@183-46-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:04:12 jyujin_ [n=mdeining@82.113.106.143] has joined #lisp 21:05:17 -!- astalla [n=astalla@93-36-226-118.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:06:45 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:09:32 billstclai [n=billstcl@dsl-67-158-178-78.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:04 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 21:10:18 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:10:24 -!- billstclai is now known as billstclair 21:10:25 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:12:37 -!- ausente is now known as dalton 21:13:44 nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:55 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:15:01 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:16:06 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:16:07 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:17:01 Is it possible to take slices from arrays, such as taking an entire row? 21:17:16 (or sub-arrays or whatever) 21:17:51 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6CE73.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 21:18:09 Maybe the question is not very well formed. What I mean is, is there a function to do that, or do I have to roll my own? 21:19:29 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 21:19:59 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-25-85.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 21:20:16 Sikander: you can displace arrays into others 21:20:41 which gives you something like a window into that array 21:21:08 aha! Thanks, I was looking for this type of functionality 21:21:16 clhs make-array 21:21:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm 21:21:28 it's the displace-to and displaced-index-offset keywords 21:21:33 I also found array-operations in cliki but don't know if that's only math operations. I'll have a look, thanks 21:22:07 afaik, you can even displace lower-dimensional arrays into higher-dimensional ones... no idea what you'd use that for, though, apart from cutting out a row or something (-: 21:22:20 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:23:43 well, I was interested in cutting out rows. Probably cutting out columns is then not possible without some tricks (but I don't care about that) 21:24:31 it's row-major addressing, so columns is hard 21:24:36 (or impossible, probably) 21:24:59 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.225.107] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:26:15 well, it's probably only impossible if you don't allow copying :) I only care about the data inside, so I don't mind copying 21:28:14 displacing to a column could be possible through a special array header that lets you specify a skip amount between elements 21:28:34 but that would involve some deep surgery in the implementation 21:28:41 -!- jyujin [n=mdeining@82.113.121.112] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:29:42 Is it possible to blit? 21:29:49 -!- Blkt [n=Blkt@dynamic-adsl-94-37-225-156.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:30:02 blit? 21:30:25 because then you can fake it by hiding the blitting and be allowed to setf 21:30:42 blit a small subarray to a larger array, basically a "fast copy" 21:30:46 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@114-45-226-78.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:31:13 or fast copy a smaller (rectangular) part of a larger array to a new array 21:31:51 I think blit is the nomenclature in graphics stuff (opengl framebuffers etc) 21:31:55 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:32:19 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-163-175.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:35 Sikander: I'm just reading on it, and I think that it's rather a fast copy method inside the memory, without involving the cpu 21:32:39 is that possible with arrays, or do I need another type forr that 21:32:52 serichsen: yeah, exactly 21:33:09 does blit exist for arrays? 21:33:11 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:33:59 I am not aware of such a thing, but my experience is limited 21:34:09 ok, thanks 21:34:47 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.119.21] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:35:04 It's been a long time since I last hacked in CL, and even though I didn't change it, my setup seems to be completely screwed up... 21:35:25 SLIME doesn't want to use anything else than SBCL, and my current SBCL is broken 21:35:48 if I do (setq inferior-lisp-program "ecl"), shouldn't SLIME use ECL? 21:35:57 Sikander: copying a "rectangular" part of an array seems strange to me, since multidimensional arrays are represented linearly in memory 21:36:14 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:36:23 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:33 -!- LiamH [n=none@208.72.159.207] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:36:56 serichsen: Yeah, but still, I seem to remember that you can do that with blitting, since this is usually how you compose foreground bitmaps (say, sprites) and background bitmaps together in a fast way 21:37:30 serichsen: I was only interested in it because you could fake column access by blitting columns and blitting modifications back 21:37:55 (or so I think) 21:38:11 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@i016104.gprs.dnafinland.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:38:26 does s-sql have a syntax in which you feed it a variable that contains the s-sql query it needs to execute? 21:38:39 I can't find it in the docs (but it seems strange to me) 21:39:45 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:40:03 Sikander: I see 21:40:14 -!- lombard_1 [n=yyyyyyyy@189.107.40.47] has quit ["leaving"] 21:40:16 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 21:40:22 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4c2a.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:40:40 madnificent: (:raw "select * from ...") 21:40:52 I /think/ the part following :raw is evaluated 21:41:00 ah, yes, it is, according to the example 21:41:22 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 21:41:32 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:41:35 serichsen: probably I'm halucinating with the blitting in multi-dimensional arrays... Thanks anyway 21:42:22 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.95.15] has joined #lisp 21:43:24 antifuchs: no, something like: (query (:select '* :from :users :where variable-that-holds-a-list-with-a-condition)) 21:43:27 p_l pasted "for nowhere_man - example parts from slime config" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82796 21:43:50 in which that far too long variable would contain something like (list := :name "example-user") 21:43:55 though I haven't really tested it with ecl 21:44:38 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-85.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:44:39 -!- commmmodo [n=commmmod@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has quit [] 21:44:48 madnificent: you use :where (:raw (sql the-variable)) for that, afaik. 21:45:39 antifuchs: thing is, that there are a variable number of conditions in that list, so I don't think sql works for it either 21:45:40 *madnificent* checks 21:45:41 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:46:06 (:and cond1 cond2 cond3) 21:46:12 arbitrarity ahoi (: 21:46:53 commmmodo [n=commmmod@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 21:47:02 antifuchs: and how do you put a variable number of conditions in that? 21:47:10 antifuchs: as in: not known at compile time 21:48:12 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:48:41 madnificent: ah. right. 21:48:42 lukjadOO7 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 21:48:48 you might have to use sql-compile there 21:49:39 heh? /me checks 21:50:36 or perhaps something like (:where (:raw (join "and" conditions))) ? 21:50:38 oh, didn't read that one correctly (brain mixed it with with sql-template) 21:51:21 serichsen: the syntax puts the variable in there, instead of splicing the result of the variable 21:51:54 serichsen: so there is no way to splice the condition in there (at least not to my limited understanding of it) 21:52:28 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:52:45 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-251-238.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 21:53:06 madnificent: ROFL:SELECT is based on a more dynamic syntax (using S-SQL:SQL-COMPILE). 21:53:14 madnificent: I meant `conditions` to contain a list of string expressions that would be joined by " and " -- `join` then returns a string 21:53:22 Quetzalcoatl_ [n=godless@cpe-71-72-235-91.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:07 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-6.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:56:49 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:56:51 `join` would just be a helper function (nothing to do with SQL-join) 21:56:57 -!- glogic [n=glogic@5ess.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:58:56 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:59:33 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-48.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:59:57 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:01:07 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 22:01:11 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.95.15] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:01:14 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@82.113.121.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:01:36 glogic [n=glogic@5ess.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:49 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.69.236] has joined #lisp 22:04:21 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-194.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 22:06:09 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-66-250.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:06:23 -!- nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving the office."] 22:08:19 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:08:58 p_l: thanks, I updated my SBCL and, as I'm lazy, I will check that later 22:09:20 I'm happy to discover that I can hack with clojure, though 22:09:25 in SLIME, that is 22:09:55 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-85.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:10:23 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:10:33 nowhere_man: It somehow works, I'm not sure how updated it got, haven't had time to play with it too much (and I prefered netbeans due to better Java integration - I still haven't got good emacs config for JDEE) 22:11:04 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-4-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:11 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:11:58 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-85.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:12:38 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:14:42 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:17:34 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:19:31 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.195.206] has joined #lisp 22:23:07 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:33 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:23:38 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-85.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:23:41 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:25:35 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:38 -!- Orest is now known as Orest^bnc 22:26:09 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:27:12 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 22:28:39 -!- willb [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:34:13 Qsource [i=dima@torch.blackened.com] has joined #lisp 22:34:34 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.69.236] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:35:32 -!- TDT [i=dthole@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:37:51 tmh, paredit does not customize indentation. It uses whatever indentation `lisp-indent-line', `newline-and-indent', and `indent-sexp' effect. 22:38:12 thor [n=thor@74-95-181-166-Philadelphia.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:51 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:41:26 -!- lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:41:29 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:42:50 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:44:32 has anyone tried adding custom types to cl-perec/rdbms/etc ? 22:44:38 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 22:46:25 hm, I'm having some pretty serious problems with bordeaux threads all of a sudden. 22:46:36 the library is installed, the package is there, 22:46:50 but I get errors that bordeaux-threads:make-thread is undefined 22:47:03 I get these errors with code as simple as #'bt:make-thread 22:47:08 Adlai: what implementation? 22:47:18 CCL on 64-bit Linux 22:47:27 this was working earlier today... 22:47:51 Adlai: try (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :bordeaux-threads :force t) 22:48:18 great, it works. 22:48:20 thanks. 22:48:26 why did I need to force it? 22:48:34 fe[nl]ix: wish I had knew that one :D 22:48:43 Adlai: to force recompilation 22:48:57 well, I had tried recompiling and loading separately. 22:49:15 ooooh but maybe the loading didn't load the newly-compiled version until I forced it. 22:49:17 ok, well, thx. 22:50:28 Adlai: just to be sure, try starting a fresh image and see if B-T works there too 22:51:52 fe[nl]ix, so far, so good... :) 22:56:29 benny` [n=benny@i577A0EDE.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:59:54 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:11 -!- shanmu [n=chatzill@client-86-27-63-173.brhm.adsl.virgin.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060309]"] 23:07:24 lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 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23:16:26 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:17:38 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:11 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:11 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:23:53 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 23:23:53 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:24:39 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:35 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 23:28:44 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 23:29:10 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:32:45 *p_l* has a bad feeling that big part of his application will turn out to be written in Pl/PgSQL 23:32:45 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:33:55 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:10 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:35:17 you could always generate that code with macros 23:36:10 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:49 CalJohn [n=pg99@78-86-93-35.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:36:56 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:56 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:38:10 -!- CalJohn [n=pg99@78-86-93-35.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 23:38:59 BrianRice: Sure, but I think I'd prefer having a separate lisp image working as middleware 23:39:08 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:39:12 to avoid duplicating efforts 23:39:25 we'd all prefer something better 23:40:42 -!- smoofra [n=user@cthulhu.elder-gods.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:40:52 smoofra [n=user@cthulhu.elder-gods.org] has joined #lisp 23:40:53 phearle [n=phearle@c-24-63-120-211.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:05 -!- thor [n=thor@74-95-181-166-Philadelphia.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:41:36 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-110-242.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:43:09 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:43:47 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:09 maybe I'll try putting in a messaging system... ;P 23:44:48 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:45:08 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] 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