00:00:42 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-122-228.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:00:52 -!- plage [n=user@58.186.146.118] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:01:01 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-131-126.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:01:12 sykopomp: rule is simple: consp, but digit-char-p 00:01:20 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-131-126.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 00:01:30 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-49-32.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 00:01:50 stassats`: except (defstruct foo ..) -> foo-p; atom (no p) 00:02:02 -!- krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-114-76.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:02:09 leo2007: (macroexpand '(loop repeat n do a do b)) (macroexpand '(loop repeat n do a b)) 00:02:13 atom has no p for historical reasons 00:02:27 yeah 00:02:35 it's still annoying, and the defstruct thing particularly so 00:02:37 every rule has exceptions 00:03:00 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-122-228.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:03:12 you'd figure one like this could do a better job at being consistent, though :\ 00:03:15 anothergit [n=anotherg@pool-96-253-165-201.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:37 in common lisp what is the function that is used to trace what another function does? 00:03:46 clhs trace 00:03:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_tracec.htm 00:03:51 it's a macro, though 00:03:56 thanks 00:04:34 -!- khumba [n=khumba@S0106000f664eede0.ok.shawcable.net] has quit ["Oyasumi."] 00:04:50 deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has joined #lisp 00:05:35 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:05:59 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-49-32.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:06:29 -!- anothergit [n=anotherg@pool-96-253-165-201.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:08:13 rokstar [n=rokstar@d221-88-81.commercial.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:26 dunno, if you guys'll answer an elisp question here or not but i'm looking for a macro like (save-excursion), cept for directories. Anyone know of something? 00:09:26 -!- jao [n=jao@94.Red-88-6-161.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:09:57 rokstar: #emacs 00:09:58 rokstar: this is not #emacs 00:10:50 yeah, i'm in there now 00:10:55 er already there 00:11:00 sorry to bug ya 00:12:00 -!- rokstar [n=rokstar@d221-88-81.commercial.cgocable.net] has left #lisp 00:12:02 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:37 -!- deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has quit [] 00:23:42 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:25:35 -!- szergling [n=tyc20@125-236-176-26.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:30:23 when I append to custom:*load-paths* in clisp, how do I prevent my path string from being upcased? 00:31:21 is it really a string? 00:31:44 I'm adding a unix path which is case sensitive 00:32:05 how do you do it? 00:32:10 "is/it/quoted"? 00:32:33 'this/is/a/symbol -- not a string 00:32:46 example: (setf custom:*load-paths* (append custom:*load-paths* '("somepath/string/here"))) 00:33:07 cl-newb-aka-gent: you might be missing the "" 00:33:27 so, why do you think it is upcased? 00:33:29 *cl-newb-aka-gent* notes that newb is a substring of his nick 00:33:47 what is (last custom:*load-paths*) after that? 00:33:48 also, that's what push/pushnew/pushend are for... 00:33:49 because that's what CLISP does to it 00:34:13 cl-newb-aka-gent: doesn't look like that's what clisp is doing... 00:34:25 sykopomp: pushend? 00:34:27 '("foo") -> ("foo") 00:34:41 clisp is occasionally wierd, but not wierd enough to silently upcase strings... 00:35:07 weird, even 00:35:40 stassats`: non-standard, of course :) `(setf ,place (nconc ,place (list ,obj))) 00:35:48 hmmm.....the directory is actually a symlink, maybe that's why 00:36:27 try the symlink case pls 00:36:29 ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 00:36:33 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 00:36:47 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:37:17 paste what are you doing exactly 00:37:21 cl-newb-aka-gent: I think you're messing something else up. Paste the specific code. 00:37:21 lisppaste: url? 00:37:21 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 00:37:35 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-122-228.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:37:54 i'll repro it for you in a sec 00:37:59 brb 00:42:04 Swordsman [n=kohii@pool-71-112-25-59.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:01 NikolaTesla [n=user7994@189-19-121-91.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 00:43:33 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 00:45:10 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 00:47:35 the suspense is killing me 00:48:21 lol 00:48:25 sorry, i'm having a hard time repro-ing it....i'll try to isolate why it's happening.... 00:48:43 Can you just copy the code which gave you an error? 00:48:53 sorry 00:48:54 paste it into a new Lisppaste, and make sure to select #lisp as th echannel 00:51:08 the channel is logged, i want to keep *some* dignity ;) 00:51:50 Don't worry about your dignity. If you read some of my posts from the past weeks in the logs, you'll realize that noobs can't afford to worry about dignity. 00:52:19 *Adlai* has asked some pretty stupid questions here. 00:54:56 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:17 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:55:45 stupid questions are fine 00:55:58 -!- NikolaTesla2 [n=user7994@189-19-121-91.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:56:37 ill-formed and confused questions are much harder -- but fine too, assuming willingness to spend some mental effort in reforming them 00:58:46 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:59:21 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:52 Adlai pasted "sykopomp's buggy worm game" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82656 01:00:34 Modius_ [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 01:00:49 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:03:57 how do I get format to emit a double quote? 01:04:14 "\"" 01:05:08 clisp won't do it anymore, so i have no idea how to repro it now, even if i pasted my code....sorry guys :) 01:05:43 TekLok [n=TekLok@c-98-247-9-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:50 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 01:07:08 cl-newb-aka-gent, does that mean the problem is gone? 01:07:48 pjb: the expansion is differnt 01:08:09 -!- DepthSort [n=Jonny@h-209-222-162-15.everus.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:10:04 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:10:54 -!- bdowning_ is now known as bdowning 01:11:03 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 01:11:12 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:11:37 adlai: apparrently......depends on your POV 01:11:50 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 01:12:37 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 01:14:10 it's quite probable that you were entering the path as a symbol rather than a string. 01:14:18 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:14:50 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["gbu"] 01:15:18 Is there an agreed upon equivalency method for classes? Like equalp or something but for classes? 01:15:39 I think you'd have to define your own generic function. 01:15:45 WarWeasle: no. 01:16:06 there's an article about it that sheds some light. 01:16:24 http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html is it 01:16:36 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:17:07 Oh, I was thinking http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html :) 01:18:11 perhaps there is more than one article... 01:18:36 Yours is probably more directly relevant. 01:18:59 -!- cl-newb-aka-gent [n=richard@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:21:49 Is there a method name most people use, like EQUIVALENT? 01:22:27 WarWeasle: i sometimes use EQV 01:23:22 michaelw uses (MW-)EQUIV (: 01:23:52 true 01:23:54 Ok, so any of those are good *style*. 01:25:27 That depends, is *style* a special? 01:26:49 *style* is not defined. I guess I must define my own... 01:28:43 i tend to use equals as the api and objects-equal as the implementation layer 01:31:37 http://www.jucs.org/jucs_14_20/binary_methods_programming_the # if you want to enforce sane semantics for things like foo-equal, this is a good read 01:32:10 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 01:32:17 Thanks nik. 01:39:20 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:39:54 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:07 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:44:38 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Client Quit] 01:45:16 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 01:45:25 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 01:46:19 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:47:10 phearle [n=phearle@c-24-63-120-211.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:28 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 01:47:58 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 01:48:32 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-165-44.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:41 Ian1 [n=IStuart@FL-ESR1-216-196-162-96.fuse.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:32 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:54:39 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:54:43 slackaholic [i=1000@187-24-212-47.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 01:55:32 pjb have you received my email? 01:58:00 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 01:58:58 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 02:03:35 -!- NikolaTesla is now known as Umbabarauma 02:04:02 -!- Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:04:15 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:06:06 Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:09 benny [n=benny@i577A0C1D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:06:24 -!- Ian1 [n=IStuart@FL-ESR1-216-196-162-96.fuse.net] has left #lisp 02:06:41 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-24-212-47.3g.claro.net.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:07:41 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:10:00 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2F360.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:24 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 02:14:43 -!- joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:15:30 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 02:16:04 a-s` [n=user@92.81.146.45] has joined #lisp 02:17:37 joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 02:19:03 -!- a-s [n=user@92.81.151.172] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:25:39 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2E754.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:35 inforichland [n=inforich@96-42-29-58.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:27:15 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 02:27:27 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 02:27:53 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1C212.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:38 -!- segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1FE52.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:31:19 anybody know of a package that provides set semantics? 02:31:20 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:31:42 do you mean set operations like union, intersection, etc? 02:31:51 yeah 02:32:04 well, some of that you have in :CL already 02:32:17 but beyond that, 02:32:21 minion, tell fade about fset 02:32:22 fade: please see fset: FSet is a functional set-theoretic collections library. http://www.cliki.net/fset 02:32:33 thanks Adlai 02:32:44 no problem :) 02:37:57 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:41:36 -!- joast1 [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:43:46 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 02:44:17 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:45:14 Weird, when drawing something in clim with a :clipping-region that is smaller than the object, the object is just not drawn at all... Is that the correct behaviour? 02:45:53 chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:04 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 02:46:30 Wait, even if the clipping region is _larger_, the object isn't drawn?! 02:47:53 ... Hmmm, does clipping-region even work in mcclim? 02:48:54 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:56:40 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 03:00:11 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-51-241.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:06:36 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 03:08:53 -!- Umbabarauma is now known as dalton 03:09:44 fusss [i=73802ba9@gateway/web/freenode/x-bda0b107a0f1cfc5] has joined #lisp 03:10:08 CLSQL is the name of the game! 03:10:25 a fine piece of engineering, it is 03:11:09 (setf *db-auto-sync*) == as good as a fucking object store, imo 03:12:37 all I wanted was to be able to make-instance and have it persist in a db; it does that, and it actually stores it (unlike rucksack, which owes me 3 happy days) 03:15:32 nikodemus around? 03:15:41 dtulig [n=user@cpe-24-28-77-89.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:17:30 -!- jrockway_ is now known as jrockway 03:17:54 how would you implement something like the emacs (interactive) macro in CL? 03:18:05 koft [n=kvirc@adsl-144-190-99.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:19 is interactive a macro? 03:18:29 i thoguht it was a feature of defun 03:19:58 it may be, but the obvious answer ("write a macro that expands to defun") is becoming problematic 03:21:52 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:26:25 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:26:44 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 03:27:16 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:28:52 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-15-81.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:40 hmm if I understand, a valid class must be supplied for defmethod for type specialization, meaning that fixnum, despite working with SBCL would be unportable... But how about type-specifier for defclass? 03:33:58 -!- inforichland [n=inforich@96-42-29-58.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [] 03:34:37 after checking the defclass and type-specifier entries in the hyperspec I'm still unsure if using fixnum for type-specifier would be portable 03:35:00 wouldn't you need a subclass of standard-class? 03:35:09 fixnum is a type-specifier 03:35:12 -!- KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-11-118.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:35:43 joshe: for defmethod specialization, it seems so at least 03:35:47 if you are talking about :type slot option 03:36:00 stassats`: ah, thanks 03:36:12 Qsource: why can't you just make a mydefun macro? 03:38:50 smoofra: several reasons. i want to chain them, and i want them to be aware of the defun's lexical environment (which a mydefun macro can do by walking looking for myinteractive). i'm doing something similar right now, and i'm looking for something better. 03:39:18 phadthai: but you can use INTEGER as a specializer 03:39:31 does it need to walk? i think the rule in emacs is that (interactive) has to be the frist form 03:40:03 Qsource: if nikodemus likes my cltl2 patches you can use define-declaration 03:40:05 smoofra: well, see above about chaining and combining them. mine would have to walk (not that walking is hard) 03:40:06 :_D 03:40:13 chaining and combining? 03:40:15 smoofra: link? 03:41:01 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@76.122.37.30] has quit [] 03:41:26 http://elder-gods.org/~larry/repos/sbcl, branch "temp" 03:41:27 Qsource: why do you need something like interactive? 03:41:43 [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.72] has joined #lisp 03:42:08 stassats`: i just used it as an example, but s'pose i want to write a few sets of interactive functions 03:42:25 Qsource: how do you want to chain and combine them? 03:42:32 defuns within defuns? 03:42:39 as obbposed to flet? 03:43:46 smoofra: something like that. i want to take a defun, analyze it, possibly transform it or replace it, possibly add it to some other internal structures, etc. right now I also do (pushnew 'my-fun-or-class *some-list*), which would be better spelled in the style of (interactive) 03:43:46 03:44:22 do you need to do a full code-walk on it? 03:44:43 i would prefer to operate on a function object, not the code itself 03:45:00 enter closures .. 03:45:14 it sounds like you could do what you want witth define-declaration 03:45:18 for interactive you only need two things: parse arguments list and distinguish between interactive call and non-interactive call 03:45:55 fusss: this is more about syntax than functionality right now, and "closures" does not provide the appropriate syntax 03:45:57 actually you don't even need define-declaration, you can just use symbol macros 03:46:10 just have mydefun put in a magic symbol macro 03:46:22 and have myinteractive do a test-macroexpand on it 03:46:34 smoofra: interesting 03:48:50 smoofra: that would allow mydefun to collect those and eval them after the defun, just like having pushnew after it. it's actually similar to having (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel) ...) in the function body, except it could operate on the already-compiled function 03:50:15 stassats`: yes indeed, that's what I had to do when porting some code to another CL implementation (only SBCL seems to have fixnum also defined as a subclass). Thanks 03:50:33 well what i meanis this (mydefun fooo () ....) would expand to (defun foo () (symbol-macrolet ((magicsymbol value)) ...)) 03:50:46 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:56 and then the macro expander for (interactive) can call (macroexpand 'magicsymbol) 03:50:58 smoofra: why not (symbol-macrolet ((magicsymbol value)) (defun ... 03:51:12 i'd maybe go with (defmacro defun- (name args &body body) `(defun ,name ,args (call-with-interactive args (lambda ,args ,@body)))) where call-with-interactive parses arguments, and call the main functions 03:52:08 stassats`: that is not the problem i'm trying to solve. say i already have another function that does all of that, and takes a table (list) of supported functions. now, when i define those functions and write (interactive *table2* :otherargs) in them, i want it to appear in *table2* appropriately 03:52:43 well, using &whole also 03:53:57 Qsource: I don't understand 03:54:09 actually qsource i'm not really sure what you're trying to do... 03:54:46 *Qsource* is clearly looking for a tool that does too many things at once 03:56:49 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@76.122.37.30] has joined #lisp 04:00:04 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 04:09:02 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 04:10:39 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:11:25 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:54 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:15:25 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 04:15:36 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 04:22:39 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:27:36 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:28:21 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:31:47 bubble [n=mikef@pool-72-69-79-93.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:06 mngbd [n=user@081-003-214-196.yesss.at] has joined #lisp 04:33:21 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 04:34:34 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:35:52 -!- fusss [i=73802ba9@gateway/web/freenode/x-bda0b107a0f1cfc5] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 04:38:38 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:38:54 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 04:40:32 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:41:21 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.224.232] has left #lisp 04:43:22 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:45:48 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 04:46:12 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:55:40 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-210-19.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:27 cadabra [n=cadabra@adsl-69-107-143-137.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:35 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.244.149] has joined #lisp 04:59:52 evening 05:00:31 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@adsl-69-107-143-137.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:04:10 -!- Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060215]"] 05:05:12 xinming__ [n=hyy@125.109.74.233] has joined #lisp 05:06:53 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:30 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.128.86] has quit [Success] 05:13:33 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.75.61] has joined #lisp 05:17:40 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:17:41 -!- xinming__ [n=hyy@125.109.74.233] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:19:48 anybody familiar with Allegro CL know of any tutorial regarding cg-user, something for lisp newbies? 05:21:08 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.244.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:32 ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 05:25:15 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.255.190] has joined #lisp 05:29:42 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 05:30:16 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.255.190] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:30:17 xinming__ [n=hyy@125.109.253.172] has joined #lisp 05:31:16 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:33:35 koft, still there? 05:33:42 yup 05:33:56 slogging through the examples 05:34:00 cg-user is an ACL package? 05:34:29 as far as i know it's written by Franz 05:34:37 I haven't used ACL in at least 5 years. 05:34:53 I started playing with lisp a few months ago 05:35:00 using sbcl/emacs and slime 05:35:08 I was curious how you chose ACL or if it was chosen for you. 05:35:21 i'm not sure I understand the question 05:35:51 since it's a priced product, I thought maybe your got it for your job. 05:35:53 I installed it this evening 05:36:04 no, i'm just interested in learning lisp 05:36:10 they used to have trials, prolly still do 05:36:12 They have a trial version 05:36:22 but it's limits wont impede my progress 05:36:42 they used to have expiry on the current but you could use the old base system free 05:37:03 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.75.61] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:37:06 so you just want to use Common Graphics? 05:37:11 it's expensive isn't it 05:37:53 yup, id like to have the ability to do some simple graphics and use gui controls with lisp 05:37:54 it's main strong point is if you need a commercially supported lisp 05:38:16 I guess it's the biggest but not the only one of those 05:38:17 i had a hell of a time getting sdl working with sbcl 05:39:01 lisp is interesting enough that I find myself coming back to it 05:39:02 but, there is CLIM, Qt, Tk also 05:39:31 there'll prolly be more people with ACL knowledge on starting in about 3-4 hours from now 05:40:15 ACL isn't popular here, since it's _free_node 05:40:21 ahh, i see 05:40:24 that makes sense 05:41:52 one thing that seems nice about ACL is it has a drag and drop form editor 05:42:46 *stassats* doesn't like such things 05:43:40 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:39 it's not much fun laying out objects with a text editor 05:44:42 there's a lot of nice stuff. If you can afford it no reason you shouldn't use it. 05:44:45 szerglin1 [n=tyc20@125-236-176-26.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 05:46:07 and although there is a sbcl and other free implementation bias here, this is more or less The lisp channel, so you know hang-out 05:47:25 i like sbcl 05:47:41 i've had more luck with sbcl than some of the other free lisps 05:47:56 at least as far as getting libraries working 05:48:18 -!- mngbd [n=user@081-003-214-196.yesss.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:48:29 mngbd [n=user@081-003-214-196.yesss.at] has joined #lisp 05:54:06 schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-034-061.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:34 -!- schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-034-061.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:59:20 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-196-77.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:31 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:03:45 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:25 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has joined #lisp 06:07:08 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:07:16 what would be the lisp equivalent of perl's File::Find? ie: obtain lists of files and directories? 06:07:34 clhs directory 06:07:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dir.htm 06:07:43 minion: cl-fad? 06:07:44 cl-fad: CL-FAD is a portable pathname library based on code from Peter Seibel's book Practical Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/cl-fad 06:08:32 sweet, google wasn't helping much on that one ;] 06:09:31 morning 06:09:38 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has quit [Client Quit] 06:11:31 jmbr [n=jmbr@35.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 06:11:39 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.242.30] has joined #lisp 06:12:38 minion: osicat? 06:12:39 osicat: Operating system interface library mainly for Unix. http://www.cliki.net/osicat 06:12:47 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:13:03 -!- dalton [n=user7994@189-19-121-91.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:13:15 dalton [n=user7994@189-19-121-91.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 06:13:23 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:13:55 bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.32] has joined #lisp 06:14:46 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:16:09 ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 06:16:31 namestrings are unfortunate. 06:17:43 anyone hanging on clisp lists here? 06:17:46 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:19:36 hefner: excert from the last blog post "In the current version of Bordeaux-FFT, that translates into a 110% speed-up for 1024-point FFTs." ;) 06:19:39 *stassats* is subscribed to clisp-devel@, but rarely reads it 06:20:37 pkhuong: impressive. say, perhaps you can skim over the manual, to make sure I didn't say anything too stupid. :) 06:20:48 but you've read on-and-off for a while? 06:20:56 I did, looked fine (: 06:21:32 nikodemus: only subjects 06:21:42 oh, nevermind then 06:22:41 I feel like I should hack a filter for doing realtime convolution into my mixalot framework, if only to brag that SBCL is fast enough to do realtime convolution. 06:24:23 -!- postamar [n=postamar@69-165-139-54.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:24:27 postamar [n=postamar@69-165-139-54.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 06:26:21 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:27:47 -!- xinming__ [n=hyy@125.109.253.172] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:29:10 qamikaz [n=qamikaz@79.123.145.8] has joined #lisp 06:30:45 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-196-77.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:31:24 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-217-97.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:52 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 06:32:22 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-210-19.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:32:34 -!- slyrus__ is now known as slyrus_ 06:37:11 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.242.30] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:37:43 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:38:12 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:38:18 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:38:58 beratalp [n=beratalp@78.161.196.182] has joined #lisp 06:40:03 -!- beratalp [n=beratalp@78.161.196.182] has left #lisp 06:40:30 ASau [n=user@host193-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:40:36 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.141.132] has joined #lisp 06:40:49 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 06:41:23 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:45:06 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@35.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:45:35 mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 06:45:38 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:46 hello 06:47:16 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 06:50:16 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:50:23 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 06:51:42 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-40-3.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:52:39 good morning 06:54:08 -!- bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.32] has quit [Success] 06:54:15 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-60-98.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:32 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-48-150.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:57:55 Quetzalcoatl_ [n=godless@cpe-71-72-235-91.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:58:56 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.78.60] has joined #lisp 07:03:08 hello 07:04:08 xinming__ [n=hyy@218.73.141.148] has joined #lisp 07:04:57 heh. "Another thing is that those benchmarks have been reversed optimized for SBCL. Let me explain this ... Nowadays, due to SBCL's good type inference engine, everybody gives that for granted and declarations have disappeared." 07:05:49 Optimising for SBCL is less about declarations and more about a certain style that exploits type inference. 07:07:33 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.78.60] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:07:48 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-51-20.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:08:05 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:44 naunsins [i=charles_@120.138.100.118] has joined #lisp 07:10:35 -!- naunsins [i=charles_@120.138.100.118] has left #lisp 07:11:24 -!- Quetzalcoatl_ [n=godless@cpe-71-72-235-91.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:11:27 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.141.132] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:14:13 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:14:59 -!- ruepel0r 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(Connection timed out)] 08:56:31 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 08:56:59 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest17027 08:58:33 plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.194.229] has joined #lisp 09:01:45 Can someone help me understand the difference between (loop repeat 20 do 'a 'b) and (loop repeat 20 do 'a do 'b) in its macroexpansion 09:01:46 http://paste.lisp.org/display/82673 09:02:57 leo2007: the only difference seem to be the ('a 'b) vs. (progn 'a 'b) arguments to the sb-loop::loop-body special operator of sbcl. 09:04:21 one would need to expand it further to see what the final code looks like 09:04:36 lispm: it's a special operator. There's no further expansion. 09:04:54 LOOP-BODY is a special operator? 09:04:56 At least it's my bet it's a special operator. 09:05:04 lispm: yes, an implementation is free to add special operators. 09:05:07 leo2007: you have to expand further 09:05:09 I hope not 09:05:17 ok, let me try that 09:05:20 leo2007: Use macroexpand-all to your loop invocation 09:05:25 leo2007: C-c M-m in Slime 09:05:48 leo2007: http://paste.lisp.org/display/82673#1 09:05:54 clisp gives a nicer expansion. 09:06:17 So now can you tell the difference between (progn (progn 'a 'b)) and (progn (progn 'a) (progn 'b)) ? 09:06:56 matimago: I have got this http://paste.lisp.org/display/82673#2 09:07:02 matimago: He just have to macroexpand all the loop-macros and he'd get to see the TAGBODY, too 09:07:04 in sbcl 09:07:24 tcr: yes that's what I did 09:07:30 in #2 09:07:34 What's your question? 09:08:11 Ok, sb-loop::loop-body is a macro, not a special operator. 09:08:16 tcr: the expansion is different 09:08:26 so are the two loop forms different 09:08:40 leo2007: in your annotation you showed only one expansion. 09:08:49 matimago: the other didn't change 09:08:58 leo2007: Different expansion can be semantically equivalent 09:09:01 So if they expand to the same form they're the same. 09:09:12 Happy? 09:09:33 sorry, it did, http://paste.lisp.org/display/82673#3 09:09:34 Of course they expand to different things, why do you expect otherwise? 09:09:41 Notice that in the case of clisp, (progn (progn 'a 'b)) and (progn (progn 'a) (progn 'b)) have exactly the same meaning. 09:10:06 In the end it probably doesn't matter after sbcl's compiler run over it. You must compare the disassembly to see differences, if you really want to 09:10:09 Compare in clisp: (disassemble (compile nil (lambda () (progn (progn 'a 'b))))) vs. (disassemble (compile nil (lambda () (progn (progn 'a) (progn 'b))))) 09:10:11 matimago: yes, that seems easier to understand 09:10:24 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 09:10:42 (progn a b) is basically the same as (progn (progn a) (progn b)) 09:11:17 progn allows just a sequence of forms and returns the result(s) of the last 09:11:28 For data, you would do: (list d1 d2 d3 ...) ; for code you would do: (list 'progn e1 e2 e3 ...) 09:11:31 what about the expansion in sbcl 09:11:50 what about it? 09:12:26 i got it now, thanks 09:12:43 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:12:49 remember, macros are expanded only at the toplevel with macroexpand 09:13:18 if you have a top-level form that is not a macro, but contains subforms with macros, you need to 'walk' it 09:13:24 to see the full expansion 09:13:48 SLIME should provide this ? Does it? TCR? 09:14:08 Blkt [n=Blkt@host-78-13-248-154.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 09:14:27 At least macroexpand-all is not know of bare sbcl. 09:14:39 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 09:14:39 So it makes sense to compare the forms that are 'walked', that is expanded on all levels. 09:15:19 lispm: (11:05:25) tcr: leo2007: C-c M-m in Slime 09:15:54 clhs macroexpand 09:15:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mexp_.htm 09:16:29 is there a bot interface to query slime commands? 09:17:30 lispm: thanks for that 09:18:18 lispm: C-h a slime RET 09:19:45 that's emacs, it would be useful to have something like that in #lisp, for the case that TCR is sleeping ;-) 09:20:12 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:21:26 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 09:21:52 m-sh-M in Genera, btw (Macro Expand Expression All) 09:28:50 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 09:30:43 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 09:39:11 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:42:57 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-7ac6e505fbf61165] has left #lisp 09:44:00 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-55432078aeeb82c1] has joined #lisp 09:48:40 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-100-216.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:49:34 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:50:06 -!- jewel_ is now known as jewel 09:51:59 -!- spradnyesh is now known as hawkbill 09:52:24 joswig [n=joswig@e177154116.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:58:57 hah. not to be deterred, I can link cffi-grovel's "wrappers.c" into the SBCL runtime, rebuild SBCL, hack cffi-grovel not to load the 'wrappers.so' that it compiles, and this seems to give me a binary. 09:59:19 artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has joined #lisp 09:59:34 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:00:49 Sorry if this question seems stupid, but I'm coming from the C world. Why doesn't (progn (setf foo (gethash 'moo hash-table)) (setf foo "bar")) work? Because the data is copied to foo, right? so I'm only modifying the copy 10:01:07 How do I create the equivalent of a C pointer symbol then? 10:01:10 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177152065.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:01:34 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 10:01:41 what would you expect it to do? 10:01:41 artagnon: What is not working with it? 10:02:01 schme && joswig: It's not modifying the entry in the hash-table 10:02:16 artagnon: you're pretty much doing foo = gethash(...); foo = "bar"; 10:02:23 in C terms. 10:02:28 if you translated that to C, there'd be something pretty obvious missing :) 10:02:28 schme: right. I got that. 10:02:42 turn around foo and (gethash.. ? 10:02:44 do you know how to change entries in the hashtable? 10:02:55 artagnon: Data is not copied. The binding of FOO is assigned to the string "BAR" 10:03:17 (setf (gethash 'foo hashtable) 'bar) 10:03:21 artagnon: Maybe you want (setf (gethash ...) ..) 10:03:24 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:24 yes. 10:03:34 object* foo=getHash("moo",hash_table); foo=cstring_to_object("bar"); what doesn't work here? 10:03:37 schme && tcr: I know, I undestand that 10:03:48 matimago: right, I want the equivalent of that in Lisp 10:04:02 artagnon: what you wrote is the equivalent of that C. 10:04:41 matimago: ah 10:04:47 artagnon: most lisp objects are held as references. Those that are not, are immutable, so you could still think of them as references. 10:04:52 wbraun [n=wolfgang@hueckel.itc.uni-tuebingen.de] has joined #lisp 10:04:54 artagnon: there's no direct equivalent, in the sense that there's no first class object that behaves as a pointer into the middle of a hash table. 10:05:44 -!- Guest17027 is now known as lexa_ 10:05:47 You can have a pointer to the object in the hash-table, though 10:05:49 hefner && matimago: Ah, I see. 10:06:14 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest63093 10:06:20 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:06:30 hefner && matimago: Which means that my first statement doesn't allocate any memory while my second statement does, right? 10:06:30 the closes equivalent is defining a symbol macro that expands to the gethash form, but you can't pass that around. 10:06:53 artagnon: not really. "bar" is not allocated at runtime. 10:07:09 Neither of these setf allocate any memory. 10:07:13 someone may already have covered this artagnon, but the reason (setf (gethash ...) ...) works is because there is actually a function/macro called (SETF GETHASH) 10:07:35 look up SETF expanders 10:07:57 vsync: Right, I'll do that. 10:08:06 Perhaps you want to create and pass around a closure. 10:08:19 matimago: oh, I see. So the second statement makes foo point to a different memory location, then? 10:08:24 Yes. 10:08:37 matimago: excellent! Thanks for clearing that up :) 10:08:54 if you want something you can pass around to modify that place in the hash table, usually you'd use a lambda function, (lambda (new-value) (setf (gethash 'moo hash-table) new-value)), rather than passing a pointer around 10:09:14 hefner: got it. 10:09:24 artagnon: It's what I told you above; you said you'd understood that 10:09:24 hefner: thanks :) 10:10:08 tcr: hehe, I got confused back then. 10:10:10 tcr: :-) repeatition is the fundamental operation of pedagogy 10:10:30 -!- Guest63093 is now known as lexa_ 10:10:54 Right. I'm slow. Still trying to break out of the imperative chains. 10:11:00 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest24601 10:11:22 Hash-tables are as imperative as you can get 10:11:32 I love the way tcr has discovered the write-only format/pretty-printer thing 10:12:40 Yeah slowly I get a grasp of the pretty-printer :) 10:13:07 "here is a one-character modification of something else, that does something noticeably different" 10:13:37 fun exercise: define enough pretty-printing directives that sbcl sources come through the pprinter unmodified in indentation :-) 10:13:54 It's a pity that they didn't include many examples in the clhs pages about the pretty-printer 10:14:26 yeah. For example, the practice in sbcl of surrounding error messages with ~@< ~@:> is very cool 10:14:44 clhs 22.3.5.2 10:14:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ceb.htm 10:15:04 Xof: Could it be that the last paragraph is totally out-of-place, and you have been in 22.3.6.2 instead? 10:15:06 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:15:13 s/you/should/ 10:15:25 plage [n=user@58.186.146.131] has joined #lisp 10:15:30 Good afternoon. 10:16:09 tcr: it certainly refers to the ordinary form of ~< ~> 10:16:13 I have another doubt: I never really understood the difference between functions and macros, except for the fact that arguments in functions are evaluated, while those in macros aren't. So I can convert any function to a macro and viceversa, just by changing the way I pass arguments? Incidentally, I tried that and it worked. 10:16:26 it was probably put there because ~< ~> was old and already known to old-timers, whereas ~< ~:> was shiny and new 10:16:44 (my guess: I wasn't born then :-) 10:17:36 I guess that makes sense, love retrospective reasoning! You can rationalize everything in evolutionary psychology 10:17:46 It looks like I just have to be more careful in quoting my arguments properly in a function argument list, so nothing gets evaluated undesirably. 10:19:00 artagnon: Your mind adapts after a while. If you want it quoted you qoute it, if not - well you don't. :) 10:19:27 artagnon: macros are functions that are called at compile time, think of them as plugins for the compiler 10:20:00 attila_lendvai: ok, what difference does it make to me? I can macroexpand and see the code generated before I run it? and this is convinient? 10:20:07 artagnon: There is a big difference in WHEN things happen. A function works at runtime, whereas a macro works at (let's say) compile time. So, you want to use a macro when you would have to use eval in the corresponding function. 10:20:10 schme: right, I got that. 10:20:17 artagnon: A bit like & and * in C I guess. Weird and lotsa thinking at first, but after a while you kinda know what yer doing and it all just.. tends to work out :) 10:20:37 artagnon: Performance would be one good reason. 10:20:54 schme: hehe, it did take me a LONG time to understand pointers in C :p 10:20:55 artagnon: Evaluating things in the right lexical context would be another. 10:21:51 artagnon: Mind you, I'm not saying ' is anything like pointers.. just that after a while you know when you need it and not. At first maybe a bit odd :) 10:21:52 plage: performance- could you elaborate on that? 10:22:23 schme: Right, ofcourse. 10:22:25 artagnon: You should be happy that CL does away with the whole pointer madness then ;) Also no need for malloc() and free() (: 10:22:26 artagnon: If you can make the macro work for you at compile time, then that work doesn't have to be done at runtime. 10:22:31 kiuma [n=kiuma@proxy.emea.fedex.com] has joined #lisp 10:23:00 schme: Thank God we have nice GCs in these languages 10:23:39 darn. no slam.sh'ing for me. 10:23:46 -!- mngbd [n=user@081-003-214-196.yesss.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:24:44 plage: ah, so I should use it to do "expansion" work more than evaluative work, right? 10:25:09 plage: i.e opening out lots of sexps 10:25:48 plage: also, evaluating things in the right lexical context- how does it make a difference whether it's a function or macro there? 10:26:26 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:27:01 macros are for those places where function obviously doesn't work 10:27:32 guaqua: What!? where doesn't a function work? 10:27:49 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:28:19 when it feels very uncomfortable, when its clearly getting more complicated than it shouldn't 10:28:29 you should read some code 10:28:48 guaqua: ok. I'll try. 10:29:10 I guess it just comes with experience. I'm probably asking too many unnecessary questions. I'll get back to coding. 10:29:13 that's one approach: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html 10:29:37 guaqua: I am reading JUST that. In fact, I'm ON that page :D 10:29:54 good :) 10:30:36 Thanks for everything, everyone. I'll get back to writing code. 10:30:43 -!- artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has left #lisp 10:31:17 That sounds so much more fun than trying to draw grass tiles. (: 10:31:33 I have no idea how people can draw stuff that actually looks even remotely like anything. 10:31:46 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:31:47 years of practice 10:31:59 *sigh* 10:32:12 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 10:32:17 the same thing with anything. you have an illusion that you are better than average at something and it makes you try harder 10:32:32 guaqua: Hey. I like that illusion idea. 10:32:59 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 10:33:17 I think that is delusion 10:33:31 I'd think a tickled inferiority complex would work better 10:33:37 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 10:33:39 illusion is a good word. i also like to talk about the illusion of control when it comes to graphical interfaces 10:33:53 hello 10:33:59 hello, kami- 10:33:59 well illusion is external, delusion implies it being more mind-internal 10:34:42 delusion implies its wrong 10:34:50 there's nothing to back that hypothesis up 10:35:15 as does illusion 10:35:28 hi attila_lendvai, I seem to have a problem with reviving instances of persistent-process in combination with yield-from-process 10:35:36 believing that you're better than average seems to be, more precisely, a cognitive bias 10:35:39 oh well, S11001001 :) 10:35:50 attila_lendvai: I probably shouldn't be using y-f-p 10:35:57 /t #lisp taxonomy of thought itc 10:36:49 kami-: at the moment that sounds like woodoo to me :) 10:36:56 :) 10:37:04 attila_lendvai: whom should I ask? 10:37:15 probably i'd use the word illusion since the word delusion doesn't translate as easily to my native tongue 10:37:35 delusion comes off as a lot harsher than i'd like it to sound 10:37:40 kami-: levy is not working on mondays, tomorrow he'll be online. or if it's feasible then drop a small letter with the problem including code and output 10:38:43 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:38:45 attila_lendvai: will do. But I think I should do my homeworks first and experiment a bit and look at your code. 10:38:54 anyone here ever use lisp to control things like servos? 10:39:22 uh, my pre blocks are ugly on planet.lisp 10:39:24 attila_lendvai: is he also around, here? 10:39:30 attila_lendvai: tomorrow, I mean. 10:39:44 attila_lendvai: what's his nick? 10:39:48 *nikodemus* wants balanced padding/margins on top and bottom 10:40:38 kami-: levy 10:41:14 nikodemus: Do you mind the subscription of the bug tracker to planet.sbcl? Dunno about you, but I do value the services provided by planet.sbcl 10:41:20 svante_ [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-158-148.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:41:44 tcr: the bug-feed seems pretty useless currently 10:42:08 no real information about what's changed 10:42:34 hear, hear 10:42:36 -!- svante [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-158-184.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:43:03 an launchpad email -> rss gateway would make a much better feed 10:43:08 a, even 10:43:12 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-100-216.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:43:19 True 10:44:14 logging a bug against launchpad for a better feed would not hurt either -- but it may be that an gateway could happen faster... 10:45:43 "a" :-) 10:46:08 -!- plage [n=user@58.186.146.131] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:46:20 plage [n=user@58.186.146.71] has joined #lisp 10:46:55 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:47:10 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 10:49:11 having established that no one is actually interested in using my little program, perhaps some linux victim can try one of the binaries at http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/software/shuffletron/ out of academic interest in delivering executables with sbcl. 10:49:45 (I've already embarrassed myself once today with binaries that die with "Error opening shared object "/home/hefner/clbuild/source/osicat/posix/wrappers.so": /home/hefner/clbuild/source/osicat/posix/wrappers.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory" at startup) 10:49:48 lol 10:50:01 didn't you like let us know it exists like 2 days ago? 10:50:14 you need to put more marketing *oomph* into it! 10:50:15 :) 10:50:27 sure, and clearly no one tried it, or I'd have known it wasn't going to work two days ago. 10:50:45 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 10:51:15 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:21 pasting links to executables on an IRC channel for programmers doesn't sound like a potentially successful marketing campaign... :) 10:51:28 besides, if you want marketing, now it has a fancy web page. 10:52:09 indeed! 10:52:26 useless gits 10:52:40 a web page that mentions magic! 10:53:25 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:55:17 -!- etate|away is now known as etate 10:55:22 I'm very proud of the magic. I always wanted to try that. 10:55:46 (compiling random C code into SBCL's runtime so that I don't have to haul a .so around with me, that is) 10:56:16 hefner: it seems to start (had to install libmpg123 by hand), now running scanid3 10:56:24 some day we're going to start appending .so's to the core as well... 10:57:09 beh the pprint-loop that I wrote for sbcl sucks for simple loops :( 10:57:17 gotta fix that 10:57:48 Xof: are the sbcl 10th anniversary plans still on? 10:58:15 guaqua: hooray! now I can rest. 10:58:19 artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has joined #lisp 10:59:07 nikodemus: yes, I think so. Week of 14th December. Some time after I finish marking exams, I'll be on it 10:59:16 http://paste.lisp.org/display/82676 << I think I screwed up badly in my attempt to stuff in lots of unnecessary macros 10:59:53 hefner: thats actually a pretty cool app 10:59:55 hefner: now if i only knew how to play things 10:59:58 why do you use abckquote in sanitize-all-hashtables? 11:00:03 i've really started to hate all the gui music players my self 11:00:11 a billion features and not a single usefull one 11:00:27 tic: so that the list doesn't get evaluated? 11:00:35 they all assume all i do all day is want to shuffle through the queues and look at covers and reads lyrics 11:00:36 It's an alist 11:00:43 artagnon, well, if you don't need to evaluate some of the elements, use ' instead. 11:01:10 tic: ok, will do 11:01:13 oooh 11:01:15 artagnon, but also, you're passing it to a macro, so it won't be eevaluated anyway. you don't want a macro there. 11:01:30 it also plays songs 11:01:33 (or is it evaluated? hrm, I don't want to say too much. but I see no use for a macro, anyawy) 11:01:47 guaqua: I'd hoped the help would make it clear. there's a column of numbers in the search results. I guess you figured it out. 11:01:59 tic: oh right. Which means I can remove the quote 11:02:14 (sorry, I'm just not clever/insane enough to try making xterm's mouse support work for clicking on songs) 11:02:14 artagnon, but do you want this to run when you compile the program, or when you run the program? 11:02:56 tic: I don't know actually. I've just put in some macros because I "thought" it was necessary there 11:03:01 so why do lisp programs sometimes use make / makeinstall? 11:03:01 bbiab after lunch 11:03:05 nah, i was just trying to type in play 1 etc at first. it was more straightforward 11:03:09 *artagnon* goes off to get some food 11:03:21 artagnon, you should know. Do the hash tables exist at compile- or runtime? 11:03:21 huh .. you've placed .so inside a sbcl core dump, hefner ? .. how'd you do that? that would be useful when distributing cores depending on iolib also 11:03:23 i thought one could just load up the file and run it via sbcl as an interpreted file like python, no? 11:03:42 tic: runtime 11:03:51 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:03:52 -!- rsynnott_ is now known as rsynnott 11:03:58 artagnon, then you should not use a macro. 11:04:19 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:04:22 Xof: goodgood 11:05:27 I have a room booked, I think 11:06:20 holycow: you can, yes 11:06:21 lnostdal: rather than that, I took the C file that the .so was compiled from, put it in sbcl/src/runtime and hacked the makefile to compile it into sbcl, rebuilt sbcl, then hacked the thing in question (here osicat, really cffi-grovel) to not bother loading the .so file, because the symbols it wants are now already compiled into sbcl 11:06:59 cracki [n=cracki@45-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:07:28 hefner: if you originally loaded it via a relative path it should be looked up using a relative path on startup 11:08:25 of course if cffi-grovel wants to use absolute paths... 11:08:28 that's useful to know. I'd still have to hack cffi-grovel though, and I'm not eager to ship its silly .so file around. 11:08:44 -!- Guest24601 is now known as lexa_ 11:08:58 hefner, ah, nice :) people like "portable .exe's" 11:09:04 hefner: that's really neat. for some reason, though, my library sounds better with xine's decoder. might be corrupted files, might be something else. also, i'd like to have lastfm support. the ui is very much hackable, though. nice. 11:09:14 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest19412 11:09:23 hefner: also, if you load files using sb-alien:load-shared-object you can specify :dont-save, in which case the .so is not automatically reloaded on startup 11:11:55 hmm. I thought about something similar to that, unloading the .so before dumping the executable. 11:18:37 guaqua: maybe xine is louder. 11:20:25 dys [n=andreas@p5B31655E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:05 holycow: Some lisp programs have a makefile that pretty much loads up the lisp source and saves an image as an executable binary. Might look nicer in your .xinitrc for example :) 11:21:15 tcr: what do you think of the function-definition-form node in the AST cl-walker creates? feels fishy to me, but on the other hand a macroexpanded defun is quite useless... it's used the js stuff in cl-quasi-quote currently 11:21:41 nikodemus: I still like the idea of writing an elf loader in lisp and linking/loading the binaries into the core instead of using the system's dynamic loader 11:22:16 this is probably insane for lots of reasons I haven't considered. 11:22:43 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:24:38 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 11:24:48 aha neat 11:26:15 attila_lendvai: where does it create it? 11:26:59 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-66-250.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:27:16 tcr: cl-walker creates those nodes when it sees a cl:defun instead of processing its macroexpansion 11:27:38 hefner: xine does some kind of "blurring" 11:27:51 ...which is implementation dependent 11:28:02 -!- artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has left #lisp 11:29:21 attila_lendvai: which file is that? 11:29:35 -!- plage [n=user@58.186.146.71] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:29:49 tcr: you may need to pull... functions.lisp 11:29:59 it's a relatively recent change 11:30:12 -!- hawkbill [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-55432078aeeb82c1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:32:42 I don't think I want that because it may result in conflicts 11:32:45 guaqua: oh, maybe dmix's resampling is as bad as it's reputed to be. I never noticed. If you want to hear some really awful, hack the source to open alsa at 48 KHz and let libmpg123 do the resampling. terrible. 11:33:13 attila_lendvai: It sounds fishy though. The expansion of DEFUN should not be implementation-dependent. If so, it's a bug in the implementation. 11:33:43 huh? 11:33:48 tcr: it is specified to be implementation dependant. 11:34:15 I mean it may not expand to special-forms that have no equivalent macro definition 11:34:41 This is right, but quite different from your first formulation. 11:34:43 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:34:55 tcr: well, it may not do so, but still it screws up the data that specifies the defun... 11:34:58 (and only excluding the standard special forms). 11:35:15 For example SBCL's defun expands to #'(named-lambda ....), but cl-walker knows about that specially 11:35:51 attila_lendvai: how do you mean? 11:36:02 manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 11:36:26 (funny thing, dmix will use 40-50% CPU sometimes for no good reason, still not resample worth crap, and then your app gets the blame for the high cpu use) 11:37:39 it's almost enough to make me buy a mac. 11:38:20 that, and consistently accessible ui elements? (: 11:39:01 I don't know about that, my first task on a mac would be getting all that garbage out of the way, and maybe figuring out how to make the terminal usable. 11:39:17 hefner: before you give up, you might give freebsd a try. there, mixed sound worked without any problems right out of the box for me 11:39:28 hefner: don't bothe rwith Terminal.app. Install X11.app and ratpoison and be happy. 11:39:42 tcr: most of the time you walk a piece of code to process it. if there's no special AST node for cl:defun then cl-walker macroexpands it and processes the expansion, effectively making it impossible the extract the function name, body, arg list in an implementation independent way 11:39:44 you people are weird 11:40:57 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 11:41:21 attila_lendvai: That's why I extended cl-walker's AST with macro-application-forms. So you can look at the original source, and can decide yourself whether you want to expand macros or not. Also to make the unwalker expand only certain macros, not necessarily all. 11:42:26 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 11:42:28 morning 11:42:35 tcr: ok sounds interesting. i didn't put much effort in thinking it through, just mimic'd what was there... but it sounds like something the js compiler could use, too 11:43:10 attila_lendvai: I just wonder how best to hook into unwalk-form. :AROUND methods do not compose 11:44:43 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has left #lisp 11:44:48 user-defined method combinations rule OK 11:45:18 merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has joined #lisp 11:45:39 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:45:40 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:47:26 pity you can't use the destructuring-sugar of define-method-combination for multiple :around methods for the same specializer :) 11:48:54 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:52:31 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6B45E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:44 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:56:09 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 11:56:25 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:34 blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has joined #lisp 11:59:10 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:59:12 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 12:00:55 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:07:56 -!- Guest19412 is now known as lexa_ 12:08:00 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:08:04 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:26 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest37841 12:08:42 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-41-17.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:42 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@76.14.85.162] has joined #lisp 12:11:51 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:12:43 ndk [n=andr@91.201.207.172] has joined #lisp 12:13:33 -!- Guest37841 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 12:15:33 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 12:16:01 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest47751 12:16:44 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:04 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit ["omghaahhahaohwow"] 12:26:58 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 12:27:07 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:27:38 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-66-250.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 12:28:15 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:28:33 -!- blandest1 is now known as blandest 12:33:11 -!- merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has quit [] 12:35:15 -!- frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:37:47 frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 12:38:21 -!- Guest47751 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 12:38:36 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 12:39:34 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:40:16 So what's the UML notation for a user-defined method combination; and where do I get the Eclipse plugin? I mean, if it was a real software engineering practice... 12:41:39 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 12:41:53 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:42:07 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest17922 12:42:34 interesting... my test case of doom uses too much RAM on leslie polzer's machine. 12:43:39 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:43:52 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:44:12 -!- postamar_ [n=postamar@69-165-139-54.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [] 12:44:31 pkhuong: would your sse work make it easier for someone to write fast (I)DCT routines? 12:44:55 *Xach* is specifically interested in really fast jpeg processing, doesn't care about portability 12:46:17 -!- ndk [n=andr@91.201.207.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:47:21 splittist: does UML even support object systems that are not Java-like? ;D 12:47:23 Xach: probably. Using a foreign library wouldn't be too hard though. 12:48:27 mcspiff [n=user@wifi-c102.EE.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 12:49:14 pkhuong: i think it wouldn't be too hard to do better than libjpeg, but maybe there are faster/better free jpeg libraries 12:50:16 is there a way to do timmer interrupts in sbcl? 12:50:51 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:51:01 FFTW, which usually always has very good performance, offers DCTs and IDCTs. 12:51:22 I'll check it out, thanks 12:52:27 mcspiff: i think sb-sprof works that way. 12:52:53 mcspiff: it uses itimer functions to trigger sampling 12:53:03 Xach: sounds about right, thanks 12:54:06 case` [n=user@32.251.102-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:13 /server/irc.epiknet.org 12:54:28 -!- Blkt [n=Blkt@host-78-13-248-154.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:54:35 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:58:24 Which reminds me - the idea of abolishing pathname-types on unixoid filesystems seems right-ish. But I wonder if that then bolsters the argument that corner-cases in the mapping between directory concepts means we should get rid of those too - so that we end up with pathnames as strings only... 12:58:30 Xach: you can try just padding your input into something suitable for an FFT, but that's probably not that hot. 12:58:54 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:58:59 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:58:59 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-100-216.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:59:57 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 13:05:56 -!- qamikaz [n=qamikaz@79.123.145.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:07:33 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:09:19 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:36 Quadre` [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #lisp 13:11:40 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit ["omghaahhahaohwow"] 13:11:53 -!- Quadre` [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:12:32 spradnyesh [n=spradnye@117.192.18.87] has joined #lisp 13:12:42 splittist: For "non standard" notions in UML, you can use stereotype and taggedValues. Basically, a Stereotype is a user defined metaclass, and taggedValues are the slots of the stereotypes. 13:13:30 The graphical notation to display the stereotype is <> and for taggedValue, it's a note with the key = value pairs following the <> title. 13:14:15 matimago: this is part of the MOF stuff? 13:14:29 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 13:14:51 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:15:24 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:15:26 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:15:45 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 13:18:02 splittist: no, that doesn't seem to be at the level of the MOF. Stereotypes and TaggedValues seems to be mere UML 2.0 stuff. 13:18:30 matimago: you had uml aficionados as clients? 13:18:44 Yes :-) 13:18:57 I've got them described in "The Unified Modeling Language User Guide" 2nd ed. Covering UML 2.0 (by Booch, Jacobson, Rumbaugh) and they're of course implemented in case tools such as Softeam's Objecteering. 13:19:15 *rsynnott* shudders 13:20:06 lichtblau [n=user@77-22-106-191-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:20:27 matimago: thanks! 13:20:35 Hi there. Does cl-perec support transient slots in persistent classes, and if so, how do specify that? 13:22:18 lichtblau: :persistent nil as a slot argument 13:22:20 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 13:23:36 ah, thank you. 13:23:37 Now I also see the corresponding tests. Should have grepped for "persistent" rather than "transient". 13:24:00 -!- Pegazus_ [n=awefawe@host122.190-31-41.telecom.net.ar] has left #lisp 13:24:05 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@76.14.85.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:24:15 Quadrescence [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #lisp 13:24:30 pjb pasted "method-qualifier in uml" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82681 13:24:58 Perhaps http://paste.lisp.org/display/82681/raw if you don't use w3m in emacs to watch it... 13:26:08 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:26:09 matimago: looks fine cooked 13:26:55 antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:24 joachifm [n=joachim@ti132110a340-3137.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:29:11 splittist: see, before thinking of method qualifiers, we have the problem of generic functions / methods in UML :-} 13:29:44 That is, if we want to represent lisp code. 13:31:01 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:04 In fact, UML should be used in its own rights, and the code generated from UML case tools could as well be directly binary code... Not very funny. 13:31:05 -!- spradnyesh [n=spradnye@117.192.18.87] has left #lisp 13:31:22 TDT [i=dthole@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 13:31:27 Ok enough pretty-printer hacking! Back to python 13:31:47 matimago: not so easy to code up a general ASDF->UML, then (; 13:32:36 tcr: just in time for the freeze, unfortunately. 13:33:34 antifuchs: sbcl.boinkor.org/bench/atom/ is failing for me 13:33:59 -!- mcspiff [n=user@wifi-c102.EE.Dal.Ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:34:00 splittist: the result wouldn't be too readable. Or you would have to check whether the lisp code is actually a subset of expressions corresponding to the default UML semantics so you could "decompile" it. 13:34:42 eg. UML makes a distinction between base types such as int and string and classes. (defmethod x ((a integer)) ...) ! 13:34:43 power failure at the data center. restarting the web server now. 13:35:06 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-185.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 13:35:20 antifuchs: glad i could help! 13:35:25 or worse, (defmethod x ((a (eql 42)) ...) :-) 13:35:28 Xach: thanks (: 13:35:51 antifuchs: my tiny company does business with a multibillion-dollar incumbent telephone company. i am often the first one to report system-wide problems :~( 13:36:11 antifuchs: (You wanted to write to the ecl list.) 13:36:28 Xach: I think luke hinted at the five-nines availability thing being a myth in telecoms (: 13:36:35 tcr: thanks for the reminder! composing now (: 13:37:03 matimago: I guess you'd need some sort of prologue/glossary to define common CL terms/idioms... But, no, it wouldn't be readable. I was idly thinking in terms of a check-the-box deliverable, rather than anything of any utility. 13:37:12 (gnn, araneida crashes.) 13:37:38 Xach: err, what am I doing? I just remembered that the /bench/atom feed is defunct for now. 13:37:54 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:08 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-185.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 13:38:12 /bench/ uses an older db schema, and can't deal with the stuff that is in the current boinkmarks db now 13:38:22 sooooo... it'll fail for a while, I'm afraid 13:38:34 antifuchs: oh, ok 13:38:45 *Xach* defers checking 13:39:02 a sort of 'five twitters' availability 13:39:03 splittist: it would be similar to trying to recover the source s-exp complete with macro calls, from the disassembly. 13:39:15 *Xof* examines his sparklines, deduces that he has a few months to spare before he needs to blog again 13:40:10 splittist: So you may modelize your disassembly, you may write a semantically equivalent lisp source, and you may even write a lisp source generating the same binary, but it will be assembler written in lisp, not high level lisp source. 13:41:08 ejs0 [n=eugen@89-14-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:38 nikodemus pasted "how does this read (freeze annoucement for sbcl-annouce/help)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82682 13:41:44 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 13:41:53 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@static-122-103-239-152.ng-fam.svips.gol.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:42:21 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-217-97.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:43:23 does that make you want to download and test? should there be hype about features? is it too, dunno, something? 13:43:26 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@204.194.78.3] has joined #lisp 13:43:45 nikodemus: first para: put in the dates of that week; should be "in preparation for" 13:44:17 Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:44:28 benbelly [n=bholm1@cpe-74-67-149-169.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:44:32 nikodemus: in the last paragraph, first line "it" should be removed, and in the third line "using" 13:44:50 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:44:54 nikodemus: I'd list some features 13:44:58 nikodemus: second para: "we now advertise them on" (means you won't have to change this sentence next time) 13:45:12 nikodemus: or instead of removing "using", remove "to" 13:45:23 nikodemus: hmm, the "please test" part is relatively hidden between the descriptions of the old policy and the new policy. 13:45:48 nikodemus: remove the bracketed part in the last para (again - don't have to change next month) 13:46:35 nikodemus: it seems like the important part isn't the old policy or the new policy, but what the users can do to help today. 13:47:13 nikodemus: reverse the links for launchpad and the bugs list (so it matches the listing in the sentence. 13:47:19 and what Xach is saying (: 13:47:49 nikodemus: I agree too. the policy change is pretty much irrelevant for testers 13:48:09 splittist: re RC, i think the point is that subsequent RC, as in RC-2, not 1.0.30....rc should be tested, but I think that's clear. 13:50:49 ignas_ [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 13:51:49 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:54:05 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 13:54:54 nikodemus annotated #82682 "take two" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82682#1 13:55:10 -!- cracki [n=cracki@45-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 13:55:54 excellent 13:56:18 nikodemus: Oh I meant to pick the biggest difference between 1.1 and 1.0 13:56:24 nikodemus: i like it 13:57:01 tcr: everything is important! 13:58:03 ok, thanks all! 13:58:11 tcr: I think it lets folks run their eyes down the list and say 'I think I use that!' and be motivated to test. (s/think/imagine fondly/ 13:58:12 ( 13:58:14 )) 14:00:04 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:23 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 14:00:41 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:00:45 nikodemus: there's a typo in NEWS: "obias Rautenkranz" 14:01:22 -!- ASau [n=user@host193-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 14:01:22 14:01:25 support for destructive schema changes (see the confirmation example) 14:01:26 time machine (tesites) to be able to sepcify slot values in terms of timestamps and time intervalls 14:01:28 You can take a look at a very simple showcase or a somewhat less abstract and easier to understand web shop. But we suggest to check out the tests in the darcs repo for more details. You can run a huge number of test cases with (asdf:operate 'asdf:test-op :cl-perec-test.postgresql) and most of them should usually pass. You can also check out the code coverage report generated by Juho Snellman's experimental tool. 14:01:35 Platforms 14:01:37 The current version is heavily tested under SBCL 1.0+ on Linux x86_64 using PostgreSQL 8.3. In principle it should be pretty easy to support other RDBMS systems because the mapping uses standard SQL features, although it requires reflection support (which is missing from e.g. Sqlite). 14:01:42 The RDBMS access is implemented using cl-rdbms. Look there for an updated list of the supported backends. As for MOP compatibility: it was only tested on SBCL, but it was designed to be portable, so we are only expecting minor issues when porting. 14:01:46 Documentation 14:01:49 There's not much at the moment other than the source code and the test suite. Here is a generated documentation. 14:01:52 argh 14:01:55 sorry about that 14:01:58 jleija [n=jleija@24.214.122.46] has joined #lisp 14:02:12 ahh, the magic of randomly middle clicking on X... :) 14:02:53 i was trying to hit an url 14:03:21 you seem to have missed ;) 14:03:51 somebody just wrote something 14:05:12 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:07:52 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 14:08:18 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 14:09:38 heh 14:12:07 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.194.229] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:13:21 -!- scode_ is now known as scode 14:14:04 -!- wbraun [n=wolfgang@hueckel.itc.uni-tuebingen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:16:09 c|mell [n=cmell@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 14:20:42 plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.193.23] has joined #lisp 14:21:00 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:22:06 -!- ejs0 [n=eugen@89-14-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:22:09 willb [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:25:05 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 14:25:43 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:02 luis: ping 14:31:09 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 14:32:42 asksol_ [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 14:34:02 fe[nl]ix: should iolib head compile with cffi head? i get a PRINT-NOT-READABLE error 14:34:02 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@ti132110a340-3137.bb.online.no] has quit [Client Quit] 14:34:33 fe[nl]ix: ping 14:34:40 attila_lendvai: can you post the error ? 14:34:58 *attila_lendvai* rmfasl's and does some sanity checks first 14:35:18 -!- asksol_ [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [Client Quit] 14:35:42 asksol_ [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 14:36:38 luis: how can we fix hefner's problem ? 14:36:45 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:36:54 wrt. cffi-grovel and absolute .so paths ? 14:36:58 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 14:38:14 this has to do with saving cores, right? 14:38:16 deafmacro [n=user@59.92.141.125] has joined #lisp 14:38:20 yes 14:39:13 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:39:19 Well, he should unload the library before saving the core, and reload it in his toplevel function or through hooks. (I think.) 14:39:28 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:39 cffi-grovel might make this easier by defining a named library 14:40:08 luis: yes, but that's a bit cumbersome 14:40:12 and I suppose it'd be nice if CFFI provided this functionality (semi-)automatically 14:40:17 indeed 14:41:22 opened named libraries are already save in cffi:*foreign-libraries* IIRC 14:42:19 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:43:17 the "right" fix would be to avoid using wrappers and write a minimal C translator in order to parse headers and translate macros(usually only bit-twiddling) to CL 14:43:18 :D 14:44:23 except that then you pretty much close the path for automatic C for C++ wrapper generation -- unless you extend that "minimal" translator... :) 14:45:18 *attila_lendvai* has a deep TODO entry for updating verrazzano to emit cffi-grovel files instead of plain cffi... 14:45:37 well, parsing C headers is one thing(not that difficult). parsing C++ headers is a whole different can of worms 14:47:14 Ralith_ [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 14:49:34 ejs [n=eugen@252-29-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:39 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:50:53 ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:51:02 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 14:51:22 hmmm... what about writing a small library of functions and CPP macros that you can then use to write a C "wrapper" which can be easily parsed by cffi and loaded? :-) 14:52:59 Adlai [n=adlai@93.173.254.22] has joined #lisp 14:53:04 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:53:45 fe[nl]ix: and about to get much harder, courtesy of c++0x! 14:55:49 p_l: verrazzano is a cl lib to parse the xml output of gcc-xml and emit a cffi file (or after my TODO is done, a cffi-grovel file) 14:56:30 works pretty well for libs where FFI was kept in mind, like oracle's OCI, but fails badly with libs fooling around with #defines and/or c++ 14:56:56 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 14:57:24 fusss [i=7380018e@gateway/web/freenode/x-f5c74fa3439a38c5] has joined #lisp 14:57:31 greetings 14:58:07 attila_lendvai: that's basically what I was going after - libs that don't have FFI in mind, so we write an "extern C" wrapper that *is* FFI oriented 14:59:04 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:59:07 attila_lendvai: so simply a set of preprocessor macros and functions to make it easy to write such a lib (with those helpers as a static library) 14:59:42 fusss: hi. Any chances of seeing that hunchentoot-strapped-to-rocket of yours? ;D 14:59:50 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:59:57 Blkt [n=Blkt@host-78-13-248-154.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 15:00:20 p_l: ILTWYS "simply" 15:00:34 p_l: if you are not afraid of foreign codebases then you can do the refactor of verrazzano... everything is set up, only the walking of the parsed AST needs to be modified to emit cffi-grovel stuff 15:00:58 p_l: i'm in big troubles mate 15:01:04 fusss: what happened? 15:01:28 attila_lendvai: for your .gov project, do i remember correctly that you were using cl-prevalence? if so, why not clsql? 15:01:45 p_l: i moved to Australia and I lost my groove man 15:01:50 cmm: ILTWYS? 15:01:55 the flow, the mojo, cojones, etc. gone! 15:02:10 fusss: we use cl-rdbms and cl-perec, we rolled both of them on our own after experimenting with other options (except allegro) 15:02:20 fusss: heh. I just moved to Coventry for my job :) 15:02:27 *splittist* resists the ocker jokes 15:02:29 p_l: "I love the way you say" :) 15:02:45 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:10 p_l: thanks, I was afraid to ask ;) 15:03:21 clsql is mixing up the concept of database/connection/transaction badly, and is pretty dead. it became too annoying, so first came cl-rdbms, then cl-perec... 15:03:23 fusss: and everything hurts from sprinting with maxi-size suitcase, backpack (with two laptops inside) and three hand-held bags 15:03:24 attila_lendvai: i didn't know you guys wrote cl-rdbms; tried to play with it the last few days; get us docs when you have time please :-) 15:04:20 cmm: well, I was thinking just of some very simple, small macros that I could use to mark important points, to be used for example for autogenerating CLOS classes 15:04:22 failing that, give use EVEN MORE TESTS to read 15:04:32 attila_lendvai: what do you mean by "pretty dead"? 15:04:32 fusss: we get you unit tests... docs for an rdbms lib? waste of time... besides easy to start unit tests we only write bird's view docs (when we do), but for an rdbms lib that's pretty pointless 15:05:19 svante_: no maintainer, no public repo (this may have changed since then), sent fixes lost in black holes... 15:05:49 attila_lendvai: my big question was; does this thing run sqlite? the TODO said "implement sqlite3" even though the source was present. 15:06:14 fusss: you see, even TODO's get out of sync.. now imagine docs! :D 15:06:18 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-209-248.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 15:06:28 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-185.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:06:36 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 15:06:40 attila_lendvai: so is sqlite3 there or not? :-P 15:07:00 no idea, i need to check... levy fooled around with it for a day or two 15:07:31 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:07:32 fusss: should be there, there's a sqlite3 cffi binding file 15:07:52 clsql is stable though; it's good enough for my uses, it def-view-class + *db-auto-sync* is almsot like an object store 15:07:55 i mean there IS sqlite support, and judging from the filename it's for sqlite 3 15:08:03 attila_lendvai: unfortunately, verrazzano doesn't do what I need 15:08:30 fe[nl]ix: patches are welcome :) 15:09:42 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:09:52 attila_lendvai: I mean that it doesn't do what I need because gccxml doesn't have that capability 15:10:22 fe[nl]ix: ouch, that patching leads a bit farther then... :| 15:10:57 gccxml runs the preprocessor on the headers, then exports the declarations in XML 15:11:28 what I need is a preprocessor that keeps the macros around, so that I be able to convert macros to CL code 15:11:53 rlb3 [n=rlb@166.205.5.39] has joined #lisp 15:12:12 attila_lendvai: our group keeps a few forks of clsql with patched here: http://wiki.github.com/UnwashedMeme/clsql 15:12:24 fe[nl]ix: i seem to remember having the macros around somewhere in one of the output files... 15:13:42 *p_l* rebuilds his clbuild install 15:13:51 ryepup: thanks, will keep that in mind. although i think cl-rdbms now is much better than clsql for the backends it supports... 15:13:57 -!- fusss [i=7380018e@gateway/web/freenode/x-f5c74fa3439a38c5] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 15:13:59 attila_lendvai: Would a MySQL port of perec be possible with reasonable effort, or does it use PostgreSQL-isms like inheritance between tables or that sort of thing? 15:14:03 -!- ignas_ [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:14:35 milanj [n=milan@93.86.187.101] has joined #lisp 15:14:39 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 15:14:49 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-139-224.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:14:53 fe[nl]ix: time to write a cl-cpp... 15:15:04 lichtblau: should be reasonable. although, i think there are some postgresql specific things in the SQL queries the query compiler currently emits... 15:15:09 attila_lendvai: can you run verrazano on sys/select.h and send me all a tarball with all the output ? 15:15:12 nikodemus: right 15:15:28 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:15:38 zeta-c may be a starting point 15:16:23 *lichtblau* is currently trying Perec on Allegro with Oracle 15:16:37 walter pelissero already has one, but it's GPL. damn 15:16:53 Oracle-Allegro-Perec: the Lisp database system for ancient people 15:17:47 Xof: that's life when you have silly customers sticking to "industry standards"... 15:18:23 -!- rlb3 [n=rlb@166.205.5.39] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"] 15:19:03 hmm, I wonder if ./make.sh "./run-sbcl.sh --no-userinit" will work. 15:19:11 fe[nl]ix: can it generate lisp code that would not be under gpl? 15:19:20 nikodemus: yes 15:20:44 Nah. How do you guys test if SBCL can compile itself? 15:20:49 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:21:07 install it somewhere and then build 15:21:18 -!- blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:21:48 cp src/runtime/sbcl output/sbcl.core /tmp 15:21:57 ./make.sh '/tmp/sbcl --core /tmp/sbcl.core' 15:22:30 fe[nl]ix: sent. although the bindings file itself is pretty much rubbish, needs more care... (properly filtering which definitions are needed, etc) 15:22:37 fe[nl]ix: Ask him to reconsider the license 15:23:02 Thanks. 15:23:09 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:23:18 -!- ejs [n=eugen@252-29-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:23:56 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:25:42 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 15:27:06 *attila_lendvai* builds gccxml head 15:32:53 *attila_lendvai* 's build was successful 15:34:12 nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:45 G'morning all. 15:34:53 zeta-c incorporates the preprocessing with the parsing 15:35:32 jmbr [n=jmbr@117.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:36:39 hi nyef 15:38:12 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:40:17 where is the reader macro #L defined? 15:40:21 stuart71 [n=user@75.145.221.229] has joined #lisp 15:42:17 -!- stuart71 [n=user@75.145.221.229] has left #lisp 15:43:02 cl-syntactic-sugar 15:44:22 thanks 15:45:53 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:46:04 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:19 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.250.67] has joined #lisp 15:54:03 what can I use in Slime-repl instead of C-/C-? Is there any other binding like C-p instead of ? 15:54:30 M-p 15:54:32 M-n 15:54:56 thanks 15:55:58 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:56:04 hrm, using directory, how can one query whether a name returned is a file or a sub directory? 15:56:25 Demosthenes: cl-fad makes it easier to do in a ported way. 15:56:58 *ponder* yeah... that whole asdf thing :P 15:57:37 I don't get the connection. 15:58:39 vd 15:59:02 (wrong screen, sorry) 16:01:05 ineiros_ [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 16:01:11 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.187.101] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:02:15 lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 16:02:31 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:36 good news is apt has a ton of cl packages, including cl-fad 16:03:40 |Grub| [n=win7@217.149.190.58] has joined #lisp 16:04:05 (+ apt lisp) => fail 16:04:56 Demosthenes: if you're having trouble downloading packages, I highly recommend cl-build: http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/ 16:06:01 you can use the sbcl supplied by debian to bootstrap a clbuild image. 16:06:37 Xach: cl-fad doesn't do that: both directory-exists-p and file-exists-p return non-NIL for "/tmp" 16:06:49 fe[nl]ix: oh, ok. Demosthenes: cl-fad won't help. 16:07:30 dlowe: it only fails because we're not doing well at providing a stable base that doesn't need to be hacked in order to do work with it 16:07:45 although, it seems that(at least on sbcl), if directory-exists-p returns NIL and file-exists-p returns non-NIL, it's a "file" 16:08:19 -!- Guest17922 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 16:08:40 does cl-fad come with a test suite? 16:09:08 yes 16:09:14 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 16:09:42 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest67800 16:10:49 Demosthenes: try osicat. its FILE-KIND is probably what you want 16:11:18 Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:11:34 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:36 why does doing this does not work? (t (+ (sort (butlast x) '<))) )) 16:11:38 fe[nl]ix: what's wrapper.so for in osicat? 16:11:58 Bigshot_: sort returns a list 16:12:00 Bigshot_: lists aren't numbers. 16:12:03 tcr: I don't understand the question 16:12:15 Bigshot_: You may want EXTREMUM in cl-utilities 16:12:31 fe[nl]ix: hmm, I would have expected (osicat:directory-exists-p "/tmp") to return NIL. 16:12:34 it 16:12:42 fe[nl]ix: Dunno, hefner reported some wrappers.so run-time dependency with osicat 16:12:53 it'd be smarter to reverse the sort order and take all but the first elements. 16:13:33 tcr: yes, right. I'm working on that :) 16:14:09 luis: fortunately osicat avoids that traling-slash silliness 16:15:47 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-d03becaba5a97541] has joined #lisp 16:17:14 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@93.173.254.22] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:18:01 fe[nl]ix: what if I expect something like (loop for dir in some-dirs when (osicat:directory-exists-p dir) do (push dir asdf:*central-registry*)) to work? 16:18:53 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has quit [] 16:20:15 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 16:20:36 luis: you do (loop for dir in some-dirs for truename = (osicat:directory-exists-p dir) when truename do (push dir asdf:*central-registry*)) 16:21:05 one might argue that d-e-p should only return a canonical pathname but not the truename, though 16:21:19 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.72] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:21:37 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:47 digit-char-p precedent... 16:22:27 nikodemus: yes 16:22:37 huangjs` [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 16:22:45 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:23:29 Bigshot_: I think you want to (reduce #'+ (sort...)) 16:23:51 k 16:23:57 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-40-3.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:24:10 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 16:24:12 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:25:47 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 16:27:55 Greetings 16:29:40 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:29:43 -!- lichtblau [n=user@77-22-106-191-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:30:49 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:14 [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.195] has joined #lisp 16:31:30 fe[nl]ix: my point is that while I might agree that the trailing slash thing is silly, having it work in some places but not others is even sillier. 16:32:18 merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has joined #lisp 16:32:22 And so, (osicat:directory-exists-p dir :ignore-trailing-slash-silliness t) would be a better a solution? 16:32:36 luis: no it's not. it's required by code that uses CL pathnames(like ASDF) but not by code that uses native namestrings only(like osicat) 16:34:31 (osicat:directory-exists-p #p"/tmp") => #p"/tmp/" 16:34:38 those look like pathnames to me 16:35:10 Yes, but the former looks like a file and the latter looks like a directory. 16:35:11 luis: yes, but internally it only deals with namestrings 16:35:50 nyef: osicat is suppose to behave like the host system, not like CL 16:36:03 fe[nl]ix: I don't understand that argument. 16:36:05 Then why use the #p, which screams "CL"? 16:36:06 therefore, for osicat #p"/tmp" and #p"/tmp/" are equivalent 16:36:13 nyef: for convenience 16:36:23 DWIM 16:37:07 I can follow that argument but I don't think the functions should accept pathnames 16:37:09 -!- |Grub| [n=win7@217.149.190.58] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:37:17 fe[nl]ix: I'm inclined to say that (osicat:directory-exists-p ) should signal an error. 16:38:33 (osicat:directory-pathname-p #p"/tmp") => NIL 16:38:40 (which sounds right) 16:38:45 luis: that's not how stat() works 16:38:54 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 16:43:03 Would (d-e-p "/tmp") => t but (d-e-p #p"/tmp") => NIL or error be a sane compromise? 16:43:47 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:44:11 luis: there's no point in replicating the broken semantics of CL pathnames 16:45:37 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:45:49 It'd be more fun to export said broken semantics to the host system. >:-) 16:45:56 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 16:46:20 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:38 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:46:55 nyef: you mean kernel hacking on the VFS ? 16:47:06 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@proxy.emea.fedex.com] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:47:08 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:47:34 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:47:50 fe[nl]ix: I'll have to think about this some more. I'll send an email to osicat-devel if I reach some sort of conclusion. 16:48:04 Yeah. Or if you're building a LispOs... 16:50:06 commmmodo [n=commmmod@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:51:48 how can i tell if a certain number is in a list of numbers in lisp? i found the member function, but that really do what i want... 16:52:49 well, member is a way to go, yes 16:54:15 commmmodo: what do you want? It does what you said in the first sentence 16:55:37 tcr, stassats` i just want a true or false reply, member returns a list of stuff. does that always guarantee that the thing im looking for is in the list? 16:55:40 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:56:14 commmmodo: NIL is boolean false, everything else counts as true 16:56:29 commmmodo: If you do not want a generalized truth value, use (and (member ...) t) 16:56:48 ok 16:57:15 tcr: or the classical (not (not ...)) (: 16:57:31 frontiers [n=jackb@158.36.150.23] has joined #lisp 16:57:48 thanks tcr and stassats` 16:58:41 *tcr* distastes (not (not ...)) 16:59:20 *tcr* cannot work with double-negation in real-life, much less in code! 16:59:55 sobersabre [n=bilbo@85.64.34.22.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:06 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:00:15 (not (null ...)) then 17:00:24 everytime I see that, I have to look very closure if it's not a typo 17:00:33 very closely! 17:00:38 (not (not (not (not ...)))) 17:01:18 hi. I am on ubuntu 9.04. i got this book "LISP 3rd Edition" (Winston & Horn) 17:01:21 Gives me the same feeling that escaping a \ in a regex does. 17:01:25 tcr: heh, I was just starting to form an image of someone looking closure -- glasses, perhaps? 17:01:36 which package of lisp shall i install ? 17:01:49 minion: sbcl? 17:01:51 sbcl: Steel Bank Common Lisp is an open source / free software Common Lisp implementation. http://www.cliki.net/sbcl 17:02:32 minion: did you mean me ? 17:02:33 no, i didn't mean you 17:02:35 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 17:02:39 :) 17:03:41 minion: tell sobersabre about pcl 17:03:42 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 17:03:42 sobersabre: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 17:03:48 is probably more important. 17:04:09 sobersabre: minion is electronically composed helper ;-) 17:04:37 p_l: oh, am I again speaking to a bot ? 17:04:42 If you have little programming experience, touretzky's book is probably preferable though. 17:04:51 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 17:05:02 i just read PCL and the first half was excellent 17:05:25 minion: are you a bot? 17:05:25 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 17:05:25 pkhuong: I'm already spoiled with C 17:05:26 i'd also recommend "Successful Lisp", it was great and online 17:05:49 sobersabre: then try PCL. Successful Lisp iirc was also an interesting read 17:06:09 (for some reason I lost my ebook library, I'll have to get it again...) 17:06:35 pcl was worth the hardback cost 17:06:59 I second that 17:07:19 minion: are you electronically composed? 17:07:20 maybe 17:07:30 minion: are you? 17:07:31 no 17:07:49 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 17:07:57 minion: are you electronically? 17:07:58 Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 39 seconds is too many. 17:08:13 sobersabre: give minion a rest 17:08:15 ;-) 17:08:16 heh 17:08:36 p_l: minion can take care of its self. 17:09:28 sobersabre: but not everyone likes cleaning bloodstains ;-) 17:09:29 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:09:40 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:16 p_l: I will clean, don't worry :) 17:10:41 -!- abeaumont_ [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:10:54 I think he wanted to insinuate that you would _be_ cleaned 17:11:42 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:12:05 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:11 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 17:14:38 -!- svante_ is now known as svante 17:16:55 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:16:58 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-30-53.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:18:01 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Client Quit] 17:19:36 S11001001: is your weblocks-dev on bitbucket still the proper repository to get weblocks-dev? 17:20:01 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:20:41 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 17:20:42 ok. I've started reading. 17:22:21 if basic arithmetic operators, comparisons, conditionals, and bounded loops are all primitive recursive functions, what are iterative functions? 17:22:41 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:23:43 less primitive ? 17:23:51 rouslan: the word recursive in that context has nothing to do with iteration VS recursion. 17:25:17 pkhuong: So it's primitive recursive - partial recursive - ...? 17:25:32 I want to be able not only to complete the book examples, but also to write some code with lisp - tests, preferrably with some binding to guI libraries. 17:25:40 is sbcl or cmucl my choice ? 17:25:59 sobersabre: get sbcl, then get clbuild 17:26:07 minion: tell sobersabre about clbuild 17:26:07 sobersabre: have a look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 17:26:48 sobersabre: http://unya.wordpress.com/2009/06/07/linux-common-lisp-quickstart/ <--- short step-by-step howto 17:27:06 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 17:28:15 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:06 ok, sbcl is installed. 17:30:32 installing emacs now... I understand emacs extension is done with lisp-like language. right ? 17:31:36 -!- frontiers [n=jackb@158.36.150.23] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:32:55 emacs lisp, yes 17:33:21 you also will want to install Slime, using clbuild 17:37:53 minion: lisp cheat sheet 17:37:54 lisp is the glue that binds the variables together 17:38:02 Grrr 17:38:58 minion: clqr? 17:38:59 clqr: The Common Lisp Quick Reference is a booklet with short descriptions of the symbols defined in the ANSI standard: http://clqr.berlios.de/ 17:39:09 That's the one, thanks stassats` 17:39:42 milanj [n=milan@93.86.22.163] has joined #lisp 17:39:48 minion: lisp cheat sheet? 17:39:49 lisp cheat sheet: The Common Lisp Quick Reference is a booklet with short descriptions of the symbols defined in the ANSI standard: http://clqr.berlios.de/ 17:40:11 La voix de son maître... 17:40:38 Well, who'd a thunked that minion would expect a question mark? 17:40:51 pjb: that's cheating! 17:42:17 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-4ddc580d4ec4f90b] has joined #lisp 17:42:17 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:42:36 tmh: ugh, I hope you know how that is spelled right :) 17:44:26 svante: Bah, spelling is optional. 17:44:54 like M-x fly-spell 17:45:45 Is the Ackermann Function total recursive? 17:45:56 what's total recursive? 17:47:01 rouslan: it's total and it's recursive. However, it's not *primitive* recursive. 17:47:06 rouslan: yes 17:47:43 -!- milanj- [n=milan@79.101.250.67] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:54 pkhuong: So it's total and partially recursive? 17:47:57 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:12 Obviously, Ackermann function is NOT total. What would Ackermann("Hello") be? 17:48:31 http://mathworld.wolfram.com/TotalFunction.html 17:48:33 pjb: first, encode that string as an integer, then we'll be able to tell. 17:48:38 pjb: no, that's entirely wrong 17:48:53 What's wrong is the terminology defined here. 17:49:05 "f is total" total doesn't mean that f(cow) is defined 17:49:23 pjb: nope. Not in the context of (mathematical) recursivity. 17:49:25 In Lisp, T 17:49:42 (typep "hello" 'T) 17:49:59 "f is total" means that f(x) is defined for all x, where "for all x" depends on the contex, and in this context it means fo "for all pairs of integers" 17:51:24 hmm.. debian way... 17:51:33 rouslan: it's recursive (computable). 17:51:35 The link between computers and mathematics is exaggerated, IMH(and underinformed) opinion. 17:51:35 I've chosen emacs extra package... 17:51:54 pkhuong: Ok, thanks. 17:52:02 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:52:42 -!- asksol_ [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [Client Quit] 17:53:33 -!- case` [n=user@32.251.102-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:53:43 case` [n=user@84.102.251.32] has joined #lisp 17:55:16 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:55:42 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 17:55:52 The CLQR is very nice, never bothered to look at it before. I was tired of flipping through Appendix D in ANSI Common Lisp. The notation is very concise, it'll take a little bit to train brain to read it fluently. 17:56:03 sobersabre: except for sbcl, don't install any debian lisp package 17:56:47 p_l: ? 17:56:56 what's wrong with them? 17:57:36 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [] 17:58:13 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:58:25 smoofra: they're often outdated for starters. 17:59:03 and then there's that common-lisp-controller 17:59:16 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["There are 10 types of people in this world - those who understand binary and those who don't."] 17:59:27 i was never quite clear on what common-lisp-controller actually does 17:59:32 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 18:00:21 smoofra: it was debian's attempt at making something like clbuild, except with packages and working across multiple implementations at the same time 18:00:35 smoofra: It builds, with suitable privs, a given package on all lisp implementations provided by the host, and installs it in a systemwide place rather than a per-user place... I think... 18:00:52 s/package/distro-package/. 18:00:53 -!- Guest67800 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:02:29 Q: clbuild... shall I install it as user or system wide ? 18:02:29 the practical issue in respect of #lisp is that no-one here seems to use clc (or care to understand it) so that every file-related newbie support question from a clc user has a layer of uncertainty added to it 18:02:58 sobersabre: user 18:03:04 thanks! 18:04:28 splittist: I had tried working with clc-like system. When I met clbuild, I kicked it out 18:04:30 Is this statement correct?: all functions are partial functions and are also total functions if every element of the domain is defined by the function. 18:04:33 -!- huangjs` [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:06:43 -!- frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:07:19 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 18:07:25 rouslan: it's kind of up to you what terminology you use 18:07:42 rouslan: but i think the most standard approach would be this 18:07:52 a "function" with no qualifiers is always total 18:08:06 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-87-6.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:08:17 a "partial function" is allowed to be total, but is also allowed not to be 18:08:34 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:10:50 hm.. I have the sources of practical common lisp book. 18:11:10 sources? 18:11:26 can I simply copy its top-level directory under ~/clbuild/systems ? 18:11:30 is there any documentation on making weblocks datastores? I'm thinking of separating data storage into separate application instead of directly talking to database. 18:12:02 I got a function that constructs a 2d array with its dimention dependent on arguments passing to the function, how to store the array in a global variable? 18:12:23 leo2007: like any other object? 18:12:41 clhs defvar 18:12:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm 18:12:42 stassats`: the book's sources are available, and they contain asd files. 18:12:52 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:13:29 -!- rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-d03becaba5a97541] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:13:49 leo2007: I think you'd be better off having the function return the array and set it to a global variable outside of the function. 18:14:25 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:14:43 does clbuild clean the sources for things that don't need sources to run ? 18:14:57 sobersabre: where does clbuild store its central registry? link *.asd files into it 18:15:09 stassats`: ok, thanks. 18:15:12 stassats`: it is actually a matrix with numbers 18:15:47 leo2007: what are you trying to do? 18:15:58 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:37 sobersabre: it doesn't remove sources, because it's directed more at development and sources are important for example when you use M-. in Emacs 18:16:39 leo2007: matrix is an ordinary object you can do with it whatever you can do with other objects 18:17:04 sobersabre: or just put them under ~/pcl-book/ and push the directories where the .asd's are onto *central-registry* 18:17:20 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-148.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:17:23 p_l: I somehow skipped emacs in favour to vim, since I needed only an editor initially. 18:17:28 I'll now compensate. 18:17:32 what does M-. do ? 18:17:41 jumps to the sources 18:17:41 (printed out quick ref card :) ) 18:17:42 look up a function 18:18:08 "find a tag" 18:18:09 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 18:18:17 cool 18:18:26 nikodemus: thanks, doing this! 18:18:37 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest62917 18:18:38 well, that's a part of slime, so it's not about tags, but idea is similar 18:18:42 (but I put the book in ~/Documents/Books/Programming) 18:18:58 i thought slime is a "modded" emacs. 18:19:11 no, slime is a mode for emacs 18:19:17 no, Slime is an application written in Emacs lisp 18:19:23 ok :) 18:19:23 svante: I am doing a monte carlo simulation, where that matrix is later being used by other function to calculate the correct value 18:19:26 here it comes. 18:19:38 sobersabre: slime is a Lisp "IDE" ;) 18:20:41 leo2007: so what's the problem? you get a matrix, assign to a variable and use it 18:21:33 sobersabre: and in SLIME, M-. will open sourcefile referenced by the code at the point. Very useful. 18:21:35 like (defvar *matrix* (make-matrix 10 42)) (calculate-values *matrix*) 18:22:21 leo2007: or (let ((matrix (foo rows columns))) (monte-carlo matrix)) 18:22:31 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:22:32 sobersabre, and often M-, will "pop" up the stack of M-. so you can drill down and then back out 18:22:58 leo2007: Or even (monte-carlo (foo rows columns)) 18:23:25 dcrawford: whatever "pop" up the "stack" and drill down means. 18:23:42 I'm not ready, I've just got the CL-USER> prompt. 18:23:46 so ... let me be :) 18:23:47 jump back to where you were when you jumped forward 18:24:00 stassats`: terminology is a tricky thing... 18:24:06 stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:19 sobersabre, if you do M-. multiple times through your source code to look at inner function calls, you can go back to the source file you came from 18:24:36 wow! it colors things :) 18:24:56 CL-USER> is blue... not impressive. I just tried "hello, CL", and it's red. 18:24:59 nice. 18:25:11 I like. 18:25:16 minion: i like. 18:25:17 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 18:25:24 has anyone here read Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming by Peter Norvig? 18:25:33 stuart71: I guess most 18:25:36 ah, hello world in cl: "Hello World" 18:25:45 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:45 stuart71: I know somebody who did. 18:26:00 sobersabre: when you are at a point where #'foo is called, you use M-. to jump to the definition of #'foo. If that definition contains a call to #'bar, you can use M-. again to jump to the definition of #'bar. When you press M-, afterwards, you return to the definition of #'foo, and when you press M-, again, you return to where you were originally. 18:26:09 stuart71: i read it. 18:26:34 PN mentions a "define-setf-method" in the book, but I can't find it in the spec 18:26:36 somewhere I've seen a nice graphic of default method combination, has anyone the link handy? (missing google-foo I guess) 18:26:44 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:16 Is he referring to define-setf-expander? 18:28:23 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-14.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 18:28:41 stuart71: yes. see http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss308_w.htm 18:30:01 Xach: I see, thanks. It was just a rename. 18:30:17 stassats and tmh: I mis-understood array, problem solved 18:30:18 Did you tell sobersabre the appropriate slime-setup line for his .emacs? 18:30:36 tcr: he's using clbuild, apparently 18:31:08 oh that messes with some defaults, though 18:31:34 and without fancy arglists (still?) 18:31:52 you asked heller for commit access? 18:32:09 tcr: no, he proposed 18:32:30 nice anyway, now you can apply your slime-fuzzy patches yourself :) 18:32:36 uhm... why is weblocks webpage in development mode? (I mean, I've got reset-session button there...) 18:32:47 tcr: first thing i did, almost 18:32:49 p_l: that's debug mode 18:33:22 saikat_: then debug mode 18:33:42 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-7-99.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:48 p_l: heh, i just saw that too, i'll let leslie know 18:35:47 Xach: if you haven't tried it, you might squeeze 20% or so out of libjpeg by disabling "fancy upsampling" and selecting the JDCT_FASTEST mode 18:36:14 There's some truly terrible typography in the HyperSpec Issues section. 18:36:34 Those paragraphs are unreadable. 18:36:38 saikat_: I'm considering weblocks for production use right now (and possibly tech.coop or linode for deployment). Is there some data on making my own "store"? 18:36:42 Perhaps supposed to be machine parsed. 18:36:49 minion: What do you think about that? 18:36:49 i know nothing about that - what do you think about that 18:36:58 (also, if you're input image is large and you're scaling it down by a power of two, letting libjpeg do the scaling for you will slash the decoding time to a fraction) 18:37:08 p_l: sure, you can use any store you want with weblocks. i've been using clsql, or do you mean something else? there is a weblocks-clsql and weblocks-elephant demo i think 18:37:09 antoszka: They're also available on some ftp server at xerox parc 18:37:34 p_l: unfortunately documentation is a bit lacking beyond that, but the google groups is VERY helpful 18:37:50 antoszka: hyperspec was machine generated, and Issues section iirc was based on various discussions not included in standard text 18:38:01 -!- stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:38:20 saikat_: I'm thinking of separating data model and application, so it's possible that weblocks won't be accessing db directly 18:38:22 ceevee [n=ceevee@plexyplanet.org] has joined #lisp 18:38:28 jao [n=jao@94.Red-88-6-161.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:11 -!- Blkt [n=Blkt@host-78-13-248-154.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:39:13 p_l: ah you want to create your own store then to interface with weblocks? or rather, have your data run in a completely separate application? 18:39:19 -!- deafmacro [n=user@59.92.141.125] has left #lisp 18:39:42 you can do that, but documentation for that seems beyond the realm of weblocks (i assume you'd have to create some sort of protocol to interface with your application, and then you can just program you weblocks app to talk to that protocol) 18:39:44 -!- ceevee [n=ceevee@plexyplanet.org] has left #lisp 18:39:52 p_l: Yeah, it's just that there's a

at the end of each line of text (even word breaks in middle of sentences) which makes it pretty unusable for both screen reading and semantic parsing (screen readers?)... 18:40:32 saikat_: my own datastorage, possibly in separate app. That, or carefully written database access, possibly with stored procs :) 18:40:39 p_l: Hyperspec is otherwise wonderful (as much as I can appreciate it, which isn't much yet). 18:40:58 antoszka: I suspect it was trying to emulate

 without using it
18:41:12  p_l: Somethink like that, probably.
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18:41:26  tcr: Thx.
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18:42:33  p_l: sure - the second part (carefully written database access), unless you really want to make your access layer in a separate process, can be done through just some abstraction layer in your app making calls to CLSQL (which in turn can interface with a lot of database stores)
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18:43:50  but if you actually want process separation, i know less about making different lisp processes talk to each other, though i'm sure that is possible =)
18:44:09  saikat_: basically, we want to make several apps using the same data store, and those apps might have different roles
18:44:13 -!- ausente is now known as amorpho
18:44:25  (as for talking to each other, I can always drop AMQP into it xD)
18:44:40  p_l: well, the thing is, data stores are themselves already separate processes
18:44:43  usually
18:44:50  unless you are doing file storage, then they aren't processes
18:45:09  but if you are using some kind of database
18:45:13  like postgresql or mysql
18:45:33  you can have different apps talk to the same data store via just some data access layer
18:45:41  and your data access layer doesn't need to be a separate application
18:45:48  it can just be shared code
18:47:18  saikat_: I know, I'm just trying to find a way to nicely separate certain parts of business logic
18:47:27 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
18:47:40  I'll probably go with PostgreSQL, ACLs on tables and each app having separate accounts
18:47:43  p_l: yeah of course, just saying you can separate the logic without separating the process =)
18:47:50  but there are of course good reasons to separate the process
18:48:19 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
18:48:55  saikat_: We are going to have at least two completely different apps, possibly several more. One working as "main website", another for facebook app, another for external APIs, scrapers etc...
18:49:28  p_l: yeah, i guess the way i would design that
18:49:34  would be to have a central data store
18:49:41  where by data store
18:49:44  i mean your actual database
18:49:49  postgresql, mysql, etc.
18:50:05  and then a single database access layer not as a separate app, but a code layer
18:50:08  and have your separate apps
18:50:14  use that database access layer
18:50:20  to access the central database
18:50:27  does that make sense?
18:50:42  looks to me like good, old Delphi-style middleware? :P
18:50:47  CLSQL is already an abstraction on top of database calls
18:51:11 -!- benbelly [n=bholm1@cpe-74-67-149-169.rochester.res.rr.com] has left #lisp
18:51:11  but if you need additional abstraction on top of that, you would just make that layer
18:52:19  p_l: well not exactly, but you could do that too =)
18:53:53  saikat_: I suspect I got tainted by the way ActiveRecord "magic" worked, and I'm slightly scared of having db logic forced on me by ORM layer ;-)
18:54:15  as for db access, I was thinking of using cl-perec
18:54:26  p_l: ah well, you probably need some layer =)
18:54:39  i don't have any experience with cl-perec unfortunately
18:54:48  all right i'm off, good luck with weblocks p_l, it's a great community and definitely don't hesitate to post on the google groups, the maintainer is extremely nice and helpful =)
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19:05:07  pkhuong: can you actually uuse vops in sbcl in regular user-code like you would intrinsics on a DSP compiler?
19:06:37 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp
19:07:23  smoofra: VOPs are templates that match regular function call (of specially marked functions).
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19:11:08  pkhuong: so if i wanted to use a particular sse instruction, (without specifying what registers to use) there's not really a way of doing it without modifying sb-c?
19:11:34  sure.
19:12:01  As i said, what you're asking to do is the very thing VOPs do.
19:12:07 Jabberwockey [n=jens@82.113.106.145] has joined #lisp
19:13:01  You'll have to pun complex double float as arbitrary SSE packets, though.
19:18:26 stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp
19:18:59  so what lisp type would you use for a variable that you wanted to be representd as a SSE vector?
19:19:38 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit []
19:20:02  clhs deftype
19:20:02  http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_deftp.htm
19:20:05  smoofra: 2 sec, I'm hacking something really quick for you that only depends on 29.44
19:20:30 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-87-6.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp
19:20:42  hefner: Is shuffletron recent or did it just get noticed on reddit?
19:20:55 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-87-6.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit]
19:20:56  It looks really great, btw. I can't wait to try it.
19:21:22 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@89-139-187-228.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp
19:21:39  ahaas: it's recent in that the code is a few weeks old and has trickled onto the web over the last few days.
19:21:51 jyujin [n=mdeining@82.113.121.113] has joined #lisp
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19:23:25  I currently use MOC. I thought this looked cool at first glance, then saw it was written in Lisp, then saw it was written by you.
19:23:46 astalla [n=astalla@93-36-229-130.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp
19:24:04  planet lisp checks hefner's blog hourly, just in case...
19:24:15  help me out, #lisp: where is the passage in clhs that warns against cosmic rays (or similar non-predictable events) in combination with (I think) unwind-protect?
19:24:16  heh.
19:25:03  I'm quite sure it must be somewhere in the condition system, but my memory fails right now
19:25:10  antifuchs: "cosmic" doesn't show up anywhere in dpans3
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19:25:30  antifuchs: that sounds more like cltl2 style humor
19:25:34  Hrmf....university surplus has pentium 4 2.X-based machines, full machines (case, memory, PSU, etc) for a little over 100 bucks.  4 of those machines, or buy the processors/mobo/etc and build a mini beowulf that way...
19:25:38  yeah, but I'm sure there's a passage that warns about random bit-flips that don't comply to the standard
19:25:48  Does clhs even specify the behavior of cosmic rays or asynchronous interrupts?
19:26:32  exactly. the paragraph I'm thinking about warns against this and cautions the reader to not rely on the standard's word.
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19:28:44  But the jargon file says cosmic rays don't cause bitflips. Perhaps alpha particles?
19:29:27  ah.
19:29:31  clhs error
19:29:31  http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_error.htm
19:29:35  the note at the bottom has it
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19:33:19  I believe the cosmic ray bitflip thing eventually turned out to be caused by radioactive decay in trace elements in the actual silicon
19:33:52  (supposedly, Intel had a series of experiments burying microchips under tonnes of earth, with lead shielding; didn't make any difference
19:33:57  it doesn't really mention cosmic rays.
19:34:02  "computers to have signal glitches"
19:34:10  rsynnott: 25 tonnes of lead?
19:34:27  radiation is a problem for computers in space,though
19:35:14  That's why rad-hard ICs cost $$$.
19:35:37  "... things that should seriously be considered when writing code that could have the kinds of sweeping effects hinted at by this example." Like, I don't know, autonomous combat vehicles?
19:35:45  rouslan: or even real money (:
19:36:01  you mean, there are ICs made out of isotope-pure silicon?
19:36:28  nope, I think they just made them more tolerant
19:36:45  that would be ridiculously expensive
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19:38:43  Once we've eliminated user error, sysadmin error, application programmer error, systems programmer error and manufacturing error, then we'll use isotope pure Si...
19:38:48  svante: bigger pathsand circuits are less prone to bitflipping from radiation
19:39:04  Heh. (with-simple-restart (push-the-button-anyway ...) (error "Pushing the button would be stupid")) ...
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19:41:16  anyway. reason I asked becomes clear once you read  (somewhat spiritual speculative fiction story by a lisper)
19:42:44  nyef: we use that often for things that must get some programmer attention. if the code runs in live mode without a debugger attached then it crashes the server (or just the worker) and writes an error log...
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19:43:39  attila_lendvai: Yeah, but this was a thought in the context of wargames:no-win-scenario, where you are horribly unlikely to want to push the button.
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19:44:28  pkhuong pasted "Hacked up SSE intrinsics based on 1.0.29.54" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82712
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19:47:01  pkhuong: wow that's really cool :-D
19:47:04  What is the function for converting to hex?
19:47:33  bgs100: (format nil "~X" number)
19:47:47  Thanks
19:49:01  Nice. And unboxed literals is nice as well.
19:49:04 gcv [n=gcv@67.97.51.195] has joined #lisp
19:49:43  bgs100: (write-to-string number :base 16)
19:49:44  Though... I'm a little concerned about the restrictions on ARM instruction encoding with respect to such things...
19:50:24  pkhuong: If you added some (lots!) of explanation to that and blogged it many would be happy!
19:50:52  bgs100: (let ((*print-base* 16)) (print number))
19:51:03 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
19:51:21  (although I'm pretty sure 'many' when enumerated would fit in an (unsigned-byte 64))
19:51:57  Thatnks pkhuong dlowe drewc
19:51:58  splittist: I'll resume from the old blog post with a real SSE packet primitive type. Seems much cleaner than punning it with complexes
19:52:51  ... One of these days I need to sit down and fix subtypep on alien-values.
19:53:19 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre
19:53:21  bgs100: (write number :base 16)
19:53:29  drewc: tech.coop can accept international clients without problems, right?
19:53:35 Jacob_H_ [n=jacob@92.3.163.90] has joined #lisp
19:54:12  (doh - dlowe has the right [write-to-string] of it)
19:54:18  p_l: you bet, we've got members on almost every continent :)
19:54:51  drewc: cause I started working for a startup and I'm looking over server providers :D
19:55:03  smoofra: and specialised vectors of complex double floats will use aligned (float, not integer) loads/stores.
19:55:08  (with possible CL usage)
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19:55:28  p_l: /join #tech.coop if you want details
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19:55:49  right
19:58:06 -!- khisanth__ is now known as Khisanth
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20:06:08 alessio [n=astalla@93-36-229-130.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp
20:07:28  any London lispers up for a pint and/or a bite tomorrow or Wednesday evening?
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20:09:52  how to input a 2d array directly?
20:10:02  type in repl, I mean
20:10:45  #2A... something?
20:10:47  clhs #a
20:10:48  http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhl.htm
20:11:05  splittist: anything special or just a normal social call?
20:11:20  (special as in lisp meeting or something)
20:11:33  call it London Lisp SummerParty 2009, see who shows up.
20:11:33  nyef: thanks
20:12:40  heh. I'd like to show up to something like that, but I wouldn't have money after shelling out £106.50 for travel to coventry :D
20:13:13  p_l: nothing special - just a normal social call
20:13:26  xach's idea is sound
20:13:30  you never know who might turn up
20:13:41 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@28.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp
20:13:44  and next year, it's an organized meeting with invited speakers
20:13:57  and coffee breaks
20:14:12  haha
20:14:33  don't laugh - I'm half convinced this is how eclm started
20:15:05  in that case, LondonLisp International SummerParty 2009
20:15:10  antifuchs: you're an honorary london lad - what venue do you suggest for FlashLisp London IX ?
20:15:28  I haven't seen much of london, I'm afrai
20:15:29  d
20:15:34 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit []
20:15:40  especially the insides of venues (:
20:16:19 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp
20:16:24  but there was the huge hall that DrinkTank takes place in... probably oversized
20:16:43  I'm thinking phone-box, really...
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20:17:17  splittist: phonebox are tricky, I don't want Daleks raining on the party ;-)
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20:20:29  I would suggest here: http://www.mandarinoriental.com/london/dining/mandarin_bar/ ... but I'm not sure it's the right ambiance
20:21:45  Is there anything that exists for doing more distributed-computing with lisp in any way?
20:22:18  More than what?
20:22:31  TDT: random message queue + nfs is very often Good Enough.
20:22:36  TDT: define 'distributed-computing
20:25:10  p_l: Something like MPI...this isn't something I know about much though, I'm building a small cluster just to learn about it.
20:27:31  TDT: well, then you can interface MPI and write some code that makes it nicer to use, I guess
20:27:57  or you can write something from scratch. I recall GCL having some PVM or MPI bindings
20:28:16 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit []
20:28:26  minion: tell TDT about Philip-Jose
20:28:27  TDT: direct your attention towards Philip-Jose: philip-jose is a farmer, it manages a farm of computers that cooperate in a distributed computation. http://www.cliki.net/Philip-Jose
20:29:00  oo, nice. Didn't know about that one
20:29:02  is there ever a freenode staffer online?
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20:29:36  drewc: Hmm, k thanks.  I'll have to read up on a few of these..apparently there's also cl-mpi as well
20:29:54  http://code.google.com/p/cl-mpi/
20:31:04  There's very very little I know about this whole stuff though
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20:55:54  Did anyone ever get :clip-region to work properly in clim drawing functions?
20:56:14  (and if so, how)
20:56:50  smoofra: so, what are you up to with the intrinsics?
20:57:23  how to add up a list "recursively"? e.g. '(1 2 3 4 5) answer should be 15
20:57:38  clhs reduce
20:57:38  http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_reduce.htm
20:57:48  Why recursively?
20:57:54  just for fun :)
20:58:05 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCC325.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp
20:58:06  (I'd just APPLY #'+ '(1 2 3 4 5).)
20:58:27  no no using car and cdr is it possible?
20:58:35  (loop for item in list sum item) :)
20:58:40  of course it is possible
20:58:42  More generally, you can use (reduce #'+ '(1 2 3 4 5))
20:58:48  Is this for a homework assignment?
20:58:53  nope
20:58:59 Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp
20:59:06  Well then, any of the solutions presented will work fine.
20:59:10 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20:59:23  pkhuong: i just read your blog post and it got me thinking.  we use a C compiler where i work that has a bunch of instriniscs for the ALU ops of this DSP chip.  basiclly you write a DAG of assembly-levle values and let the compiler figure out how to schedule the chip to compute it.  i didn't know sbcl coould do that sort of thing :)
20:59:27  i want to learn recursion and i want to do that using car and cdr
20:59:44  Bigshot_: OK, so do you know what car and cdr are?
20:59:46  Bigshot_: How far have you gotten with doing it with recursion?
20:59:46  You might be interested in reading SICP.
20:59:50  (flet ((sum (fun total list) (if list (funcall sum (+ total (car list)) (cdr list)) total))) (sum #'sum 0 '(1 2 3 4 5))) ?
20:59:52  ...and all i want it now! :)
20:59:57  smoofra: SBCL doesn't really do any scheduling, and only minimal reg alloc.
21:00:29 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
21:00:55  pkhuong: yea, x86 is nothing like TI-DSP.  you absoulutely *have* to do scheduling on the DSP to get any sort of performance
21:01:22 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
21:01:28  Wait, wait... Don't we -have- a scheduler, at least?
21:01:36  minion: tell Bigshot_ about SICP
21:01:37  Bigshot_: direct your attention towards SICP: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available gratis from  (HTML),  (texinfo) and  (XHTML, PDF). Accompanying video lectures are available gratis at 
21:01:43  the thing can do i think 4 alu ops per cycle, but you have to wait several cylels before you can get the result
21:02:05  it's practically impossible to program in assembly, but you can get great performace using intrinsics
21:02:21  ISTR that MIPS systems have some delay on value availability, for example.
21:02:33 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp
21:02:44  nyef: yeah, and it's ugly. I'm not sure the goal is performance as much as just avoiding inserting NOPs.
21:02:54  That's performance, sometimes.
21:03:04  right.
21:03:10  Is minion a bot?
21:03:16  minion: Are you a bot?
21:03:17  i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''.
21:03:21  doesn't an x86 actually do it's own instruction-reordering / scheduling thing invisibly on hte chip
21:03:21  Captain_Thunder: Apparently not.
21:03:26  pkhuong: well, if you can stuff useful performance into the same slot and nearly every instruction takes the same amount of cycles...
21:03:38  minion, will you be my best friend?
21:03:39  watch out, you'll make krystof angry
21:03:47  heh
21:04:04 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp
21:04:15  This is a clear lead-in to an sbcl-based cross-compiler toolkit, though.
21:04:17  smoofra: some, and not on all instructions (loads/stores very little, and IIRC, more on integer operations than SSE)
21:04:46  nyef: the scheduler?!
21:04:55  Hitting up an embedded DSP?
21:05:36  I think I'd rather have DSL -> specialised compiler -> asm.
21:05:49 *nyef* points to Python as a specialized compiler.
21:06:35 alessio_ [n=astalla@93-36-229-130.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp
21:06:51  how about something like this : (defun func6 (x)
21:06:53    (cond ((null x) 0) ((numberp (car x)) (car x)) (t (+ (func6 (cdr x)) (func6(cdr (cdr x)))))))
21:06:58  it's heavy enough that expressing the sort of optimisations DSP people are probably interested in would require "some" rewriting.
21:07:22  Would said optimizations benefit the general user?
21:07:33 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"]
21:07:38  Or even the high-performance-interested user?
21:07:53  Bigshot_: you're on the right way, I think, but that second condition doesn't seem right
21:08:01  the latter, yes. The former would be left with even longer compile times ;)
21:08:08 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
21:08:19  Bigshot_, what exactly are you trying to do?
21:08:31  Sum a list with recursion as a learning exercise.
21:08:32  Adlai: He wants to learn recursion
21:08:40  Adlai: on the example of summing a list
21:09:08  Bigshot_, the key with recursion is to think of one base case that works at the bottom of your recursion chain (in this case, what is the sum of an empty list?)
21:09:13  (I know! I'll hack a version of Python that will take a lispish input file and spit out a PECOFF object that conforms to C calling conventions...)
21:09:22  Bigshot_, I think factorial is better as a first recursive exercise
21:09:36  Adlai: I think neither really require recursion.
21:09:39  And then you write the remainder of the function while keeping in mind that you can assume that your function will already work magically, and call it as such.
21:09:53  pkhuong, of course they don't, but they're canonical exercises.
21:10:19  pkuong, true but factorial specifically is a good introduction because the various conditions are well defined
21:10:31  Captain_Thunder: no, they're stupid waste of time that make people think recursion is just useless academic wankage.
21:10:50  with summing a list (or iterating on a tree, etc), you have to deal with various conditions that complicate the basic concept of recursion itself
21:11:00  Introductions to *anything* are academic.  A practical introduction is too difficult for most subjects.
21:11:14  minion, tell Captain_Thunder about PCL
21:11:15  Captain_Thunder: please see PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
21:11:19  :P
21:11:27  Adlai: you beat me to it
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21:11:35  Adlai, the MP3 database at the beginning of the book is pretty academic ;)
21:11:39  Captain_Thunder: no. I went with a forward dynamic programming (*real* recursion + memoisation) example for first year CS students.
21:12:08  has anyone here used PostGIS with CL?
21:12:18  Before they had ever heard the words recursion or memoization?
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21:12:22  There's no obvious iterative solution, and the classical backward algorithm doesn't use less space.
21:12:40  Captain_Thunder: sure. What's hard about memoisation?
21:12:54 *nyef* forgets what's hard about memoization.
21:13:03  Recursion too?
21:13:18  The point was to learn recursion.
21:13:24 *p_l* considers the term "memoization" to be one that if not taught by primary school, should be immediately grasped by anyone who graduated from one
21:13:27  I think that it is didactically sound to introduce one thing at a time
21:13:29  They also had never heard the words hapenny and six-pence.
21:13:43  You weren't teaching about happeny or six-pences :)
21:13:48 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp
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21:14:20  I expect most of them had never had to give change in (old-school) pounds either.
21:14:27  I agree that exercises don't have to stay academic for long, but it's best to start off simple.  Most people won't get it otherwise.
21:14:28  Memoization rocks except for when it exceeds the heap limit on your ACL trial and breaks your Lisp image...
21:14:48  Captain_Thunder: (defun func6(x)
21:14:50    (cond ((= (length x) 1) (car x)) ((numberp (car x)) (car x)) (t (+ (func6(cdr x)) (func6(cdr (cdr x))))))
21:15:12 *Captain_Thunder* dreams of building a commercial-quality CL with no restrictions on the free version
21:15:27  Captain_Thunder: no, people don't "get it" when they're only shown obviously broken implementations.
21:15:41  Bigshot_: if you have a list of numbers, each car will be a number
21:15:44  Bigshot_, you only need two conditions for this function.
21:15:45 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."]
21:15:52  When the list is empty, and when it's not.
21:16:00  Forget about types/error handling for simplicity.
21:16:26  Bigshot_: A list consists of so called "cons cells", which have two places: a CAR and a CDR
21:16:28  Bigshot_, assume that it's all numbers for now
21:16:39  Captain_Thunder: there's Corman, but it's windows-only
21:16:41 ice_four [n=ice_four@host81-152-115-7.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp
21:16:47  Bigshot_: In a list, the CAR holds a value, and the CDR holds a pointer to the next cons cell
21:17:04 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp
21:17:09  p_l, you can't generate and distribute executables with the trial version, IIRC.
21:17:16  But it was a while ago that I used it.
21:17:24  Bigshot_: the last cons cell also has a value in the CAR, but the CDR has a special null value, called NIL
21:17:34 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
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21:18:11  Bigshot_, just think of the CAR as the first element of the list, and the CDR as a list of the remaining elements.
21:18:28  (car '(1 2 3)) => 1, (cdr '(1 2 3)) => '(2 3)
21:18:54  Captain_Thunder: You can, it's just that license forbids you from using it for commercial work unless you pay for (quite cheap) license
21:19:06  Oh, Ok.
21:20:10  svante: since there is length x = 1 it handles the nil condition of cdr
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21:20:19  Captain_Thunder: but with full license going for $250, only lack of good unicode support is stopping me from buying :D
21:20:31  Bigshot_ it's just baggage
21:20:40  you can have a clearer program withuot that extra check
21:20:40  Bigshot_, (cdr '(1)) => NIL
21:20:43 -!- commmmodo_ [n=commmmod@dhcp-11-166.ucsc.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
21:20:44  (and I need to write a windows backend for McCLIM as well...)
21:20:54  And your function should have a conditioning for handling NIL.
21:20:54  Bigshot_: the problem is the ((numberp (car x))...
21:21:03  So you don't have to explicitly handle length = 1.
21:21:41 -!- Captain_Thunder is now known as Captain_Thunder|
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21:23:41  ((null x) 0)
21:23:43      (t (car x))
21:23:45      (t (+ (func6(cdr x)) (func6(cdr (cdr x)))))
21:24:26  ok, the first line is right
21:24:45  now, it is not sensible to have to cond clauses that begin with t
21:25:01  svante: ?????
21:25:16  oh oops
21:25:21  I just noticed that 2 clauses have T
21:25:31  the second one will never be executed
21:26:13  but anyway, you just need one
21:26:30 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Success]
21:26:31  so, when you enter this function, and x is not null, then what?
21:26:45  svante:  it returns 0
21:26:51  oh wait
21:27:09 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@204.194.78.3] has quit []
21:27:16  svante: it returns first character of the list
21:27:26  I define a function, now I want to use a package that also defines that function, how can I define my function without name conflct
21:27:31  but that is not the sum of the list, is it?
21:27:40  nope
21:27:42  is something like fbound the way to go
21:27:59  leo2007, look at the :shadow option of defpackage.
21:28:02  clhs defpackage
21:28:03  http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm
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21:28:47  Bigshot_: so, you have the first element of the list, and the rest of the list, what is the sum of the whole list?
21:29:10  leo2007, the idea is that you use the unqualified symbol foo to refer to the function "foo" in your package, and you use the qualified otherlib:foo to refer to the function "foo" in the other package
21:29:48  this is how people can make substitutes for functions in the :CL package -- by shadowing those functions in their own project's package.
21:29:49  Adlai: thanks
21:29:58 *Adlai* is glad to be of service.
21:30:20  leo2007: the easiest way is to name you functions differently.  Otherwise, it may be prudent not to USE a package, just REQUIRE it and then prefix its functions with their package name
21:30:34  svante: umm. REQUIRE has nothing to do with packages
21:30:42  svante, shadowing works just fine...
21:31:15  kpreid: sorry, i guess i was imprecise
21:32:25  Adlai: I thought he wanted to use both functions
21:32:27  svante: thanks, it is just a simple function called square
21:32:39  I thought REQUIRE was deprecated anyway?
21:33:09  svante, you can use both if you shadow, you just have to qualify the names in the other packages.
21:33:42  hmyeah
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21:34:30  isn't require for modules provided by your Lisp? i.e. ASDF in most nowadays
21:34:38  another conflict from different packages: RANDOM-DISTRIBUTIONS::RANGE, CL-MATHSTATS:RANGE
21:34:40 -!- Captain_Thunder| [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit []
21:34:44  how to resolve this one?
21:35:01  shadowing-import
21:35:19  you pick which symbol takes precedence, and fully qualify the others.
21:35:55  why is an internal symbol causing a conflict, though? they shouldn't be imported...
21:36:59  Adlai: do you mean this  (:shadowing-import-from package-name {symbol-name}*)* |  ?
21:37:09  yeah
21:37:29  Adlai: i see, i import it myself ;)
21:38:19  ok, so you probably need to use it a lot, thus you should use a (:shadowing-import-from :random-distributions :range) and just qualify cl-mathstats:range whenever you need it
21:39:38  or shadowing-import the other one if you use it more often
21:39:43  do the two range versions really do different things?
21:40:37 -!- TDT [i=dthole@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit ["Leaving."]
21:42:29  so read-line is bombing because it hit a binary file... i'm trying to find where i can tell read-line to just EOF if it hits a nonascii char
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21:44:28  hi. I'm trying the tutorial: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-simple-database.html
21:44:40  I have called the variable cddb, instead of db,
21:44:55  and I've created the function named dump-cddb as follows:
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21:45:25 *tmh* struggles translating his meshing logic into a program.
21:45:39  svante: now what this doesn't compile :( (defun func6(x sum)
21:45:41    (cond ((null x) 0)  ((numberp (car x))(+ sum (car x))) (t (+ (func6((cdr x) sum)) (func6((cdr (cdr x)) sum)))
21:45:43  )))
21:45:57  Bigshot_, maybe use lisppaste?
21:46:08  http://pastebin.com/d197a5fd9
21:46:09  that way you can indent your code better
21:46:10  i can atleast paste 3 lines?
21:46:21  I see it as all on one line
21:46:22  anyway, I am trying to call it:
21:46:26 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."]
21:46:39  (dump-cddb *cddb*)
21:46:51  sobersabre, you might also want to use lisppaste, b/c it has a bot that alerts this channel when somebody pastes there
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21:47:05  Bigshot_: insert space between func6 and the arglist
21:47:06  Bigshot_: Why do you check that (car x) is a number?
21:47:22  svante because i cannot make it just "t"
21:47:45  clhs cond
21:47:45  http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_cond.htm
21:47:56  please look there for the syntax of cond
21:48:23  sobersabre pasted "dump-cddb" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82719
21:48:23  it is always (cond (condition1 then1) (condition2 then2) ...)
21:48:51  Bigshot_: as soon as a condition is true, the corresponding "then" is executed, and its value returned
21:49:05  Adlai: I thought of variating on the subj. but it doesn't work.
21:49:17  Bigshot_: the rest of (conditionn thenn) is then never seen
21:49:22  sobersabre, it should be enough to just send *cddb* to that format statement
21:49:40  the problem is not there...
21:49:54  also, you're using two different db variables
21:49:59  look at your dolist form
21:50:00  Bigshot_: "t" just means "true", so when such a condition is reached, the corresponding "then" will always be executed
21:50:01  I thought I'm supposed to pass that functions a "db" variable
21:50:06  it uses *db*
21:50:16  svante i know all that
21:50:20  yes, and I thought I'm supposed to be passing it to the funciton.
21:50:51  prompt got back, and I thought I can call it too.
21:50:53  but not.
21:50:55  Adlai annotated #82719 "problem " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82719#1
21:51:05  Bigshot_: but you don't act on it, if I may say so
21:51:32  if I'm calling:
21:51:35  yeah, so the numberp statement will get returned and the next statement will never execute d'oh!
21:51:44  (dump-cddb cddb), it fails with:
21:52:03  "the variable CDDB is unbound"
21:52:13  if I'm trying:
21:52:22  (dump-cddb *cddb*)
21:52:27  svante: then what modifications can be made now?
21:52:46  Bigshot_: first, I would throw out that second line altogether
21:52:49  then I'm getting "the variable DB is unbound."
21:52:53  what a ... bummer.
21:53:13  sobersabre, did you see my annotation?
21:53:17  Bigshot_: there are only two cases to consider here
21:53:28  apparently not :) watching.
21:53:35  when it is zero and when it is not correct?
21:53:38  Bigshot_: either your function gets NIL, which is the same as an empty list
21:53:49  Bigshot_, several of us have said this already: assume it's all numbers and NIL-terminated
21:54:06  Bigshot_: or it gets a list, resp. a cons cell with a value in the CAR and the rest of the list in CDR
21:54:24  Bigshot_, work on the simple version and then add cond clauses to deal with non-numbers.
21:54:29  Adlai: thanks.
21:54:36  sobersabre, does it work now?+
21:54:45 *Adlai* loves the dvorak typo
21:55:02  now, how can I rewrite a function ? is it ok to just defun another same fun, so it overwrites the previous fun ?
21:55:07  Yup.
21:55:11  coolz
21:55:15  Adlai, dvorak for great justice!
21:55:18  sobersabre, at the REPL, yes.
21:55:41  in a file containing source code, you should probably just change the defun where it appears in the code.
21:56:43  ok, WORK'ed!
21:56:56  Adlai: I'm still REPLing...
21:57:08  svante: i need to return "car x" right? but what should i right in the "condition clause"?
21:57:14  sobersabre, that's a good way to start. (and so is PCL)
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21:57:29  Bigshot_: is (car x) the sum of the whole list?
21:57:33  PCL is a non-sense to me still, will get to it later on...
21:57:41  svante:  nope
21:57:51 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCC325.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."]
21:57:52  ahh ok let me think
21:58:21  sobersabre, what do you mean? PCL = the book you're working from
21:58:25 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
21:58:34  well, it's non-sense :)
21:58:38  still.
21:58:40 Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp
21:58:50  I'm only at chapter 3.
21:59:25  well, it's a start... it's a very good book.
22:00:08 -!- nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving the office."]
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22:01:56 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy
22:02:47  svante: how to return the sum of whole list?
22:04:45  _3b: aroundp
22:04:54 -!- amorpho [n=user7994@187.35.194.60] has quit [Client Quit]
22:05:12  is there an easy way to set a row of a 2D array directly?
22:06:00  Adlai pasted "sum-numbers" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82720
22:06:35  yay, eclm
22:08:31 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
22:09:17  any thought on that?
22:10:03 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-251-238.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit []
22:10:32  set based a row based on what?
22:10:36 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit]
22:10:56  leo2007, the most straightforward is probably using a dotimes
22:11:05  ok
22:11:19  there was a pretty in-depth discussion of this same exact issue on c.l.l
22:11:22 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp
22:11:35  I was thinking maybe there's way to for example set the second row of a 3x3 array to #(1 2 3) etc.
22:11:56  Implement APL as a DSL ;)
22:11:57  apparently there are some libraries/code-bases that add setf-expansions and allow you to use "slices" of an array
22:12:02  you can displace a vector on the row, and then operate on that vector (for example with replace)
22:12:08 *Adlai* thinks that sounds interesting
22:12:20  jsnell, what about a column... not so easy.
22:12:24  Adlai: xarray seems trying to do that
22:12:34  well, good thing that he didn't ask for columns then
22:13:10  :D
22:14:30  Bigshot_, do you understand how my paste works?
22:14:32 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp
22:16:12  Three times while writing this program, I implemented function that CL-PPCRE already had :(
22:16:22  I should read documentation more closely.
22:16:27  *functions
22:16:31 tobetchi_ [n=tobetchi@p296be5.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp
22:16:48  Captain_Thunder, use apropos or do-external-symbols when you use a new library to get a general idea of what it provides
22:17:00  Thanks for the tip.
22:17:07  :)
22:18:39  or just package: in the slime repl
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22:22:45 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei
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22:26:30  does (loop for k below 100 ... ) goes down to 0?
22:26:54  (loop for k downfrom 100)
22:26:59  yes
22:27:02  actually
22:27:05 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-182-115-160.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp
22:27:06  it'll go below zero...
22:27:20  you might want (loop for k downfrom 100 to 0)
22:27:22  100 -> 0 would be (loop for k from 100 downto 0 ...)
22:27:29  or that.
22:27:29  Or that.
22:27:31 -!- Jacob_H_ [n=jacob@92.3.163.90] has quit [Client Quit]
22:27:32  heh
22:27:35  :))
22:27:35  yes, thanks
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22:34:53  Adlai: yeah - if only someone had told me that my last line was wrong
22:35:22  most people (me included) don't like to read inindented Lisp code...
22:35:37  s/in/un/
22:35:43  hm
22:35:44 markand [n=markand@unaffiliated/markand] has joined #lisp
22:35:48 *Adlai* regexp-fails.
22:37:39  Possibly interesting to Lisp programmers:  http://developers.slashdot.org/story/09/06/29/1816226/Does-the-Hacker-Ethic-Harm-Todays-Developers?art_pos=3
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22:38:39 -!- Captain_Thunder is now known as Captain_Thunder|
22:38:39 francogre [n=franco@152.233-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp
22:38:48 -!- Captain_Thunder| is now known as Captain_Away
22:38:50  why does this work ok: (APPLY '+ 1 2 3 nil)
22:38:59  but not this: (APPLY '+ 1 2 3)
22:39:53  francogre: APPLY's arguments must end with a list.
22:40:25  ok so nil is the list there
22:40:30  Captain_Thunder, I don't see why a "cowboy coder" can't write good code... also, the Lisp REPL makes writing secure bug-free code much easier.
22:40:45  francogre: it has to be a "spreadable argument list designator"
22:40:47  francogre, you probably want #'funcall in this case.
22:40:54  (APPLY '+ 1 2 3 ()) this works
22:41:16 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-87-6.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
22:41:37  francogre: () and NIL read as the same object
22:41:40  yes, because it's a list at the end.
22:41:58  Adlai: yes i know; i was just wondering about the args of apply/
22:42:07  ok thanks guys
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22:52:21 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
22:53:05  is there any way to read from a string line-by-line?
22:54:11 mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp
22:54:48  Adlai: (with-input-from-string (s ) (read-line s))
22:55:25   /facepalm
22:55:32  thanks, fe[nl]ix,
22:56:33  Adlai, http://paste.lisp.org/display/82723
22:57:01  lnostdal, thanks, I remember how to do that for files from examples in PCL.
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22:57:40  lnostdal, why do you use :keywords in your loop form?
22:57:58  0 chance of confusion
22:58:30  I didn't know you could do that.
22:58:35  and it just looks better IMHO .. keywords stand out colorwize
22:58:55 Snova [n=kitty@unaffiliated/snova] has joined #lisp
22:59:17 *Adlai* likes this.
22:59:20 -!- Snova [n=kitty@unaffiliated/snova] has left #lisp
22:59:48 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp
22:59:49  it makes LOOP a bit more Lispy...
23:00:29  how to return a sum from the inner loop like for example
23:01:12  http://paste.lisp.org/display/82724
23:01:33  lnostdal, you can leave out the last NIL in read-line
23:01:41 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith
23:01:50  leo2007: (loop :named :outer :do (loop :named :inner :do (return-from :outer 3)))
23:01:58 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
23:02:14  Adlai, ah, yeah
23:02:56  fe[nl]ix: where to insert the sum clause?
23:03:27  leo2007, check the annotations
23:03:35  I don't want to exit the loop, basically I am trying to sum all elements in a 2D array
23:03:38  (why isn't lisppaste announcing that I annotated the paste?)
23:03:41  leo2007: (loop for r below N sum (loop for c below N sum ...))
23:03:54 *Adlai* suggested something similar in his annotation, using collect.
23:04:02 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp
23:04:08 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp
23:04:13 *Quetzalcoatl_* didn't see the annotation.
23:04:30  thank you all ;)
23:04:30  lisppaste didn't seem to notice it.
23:04:34 *Quetzalcoatl_* sees it now.
23:04:48  leo2007, when you paste, make sure to select #lisp as the channel.
23:05:08  (just use the link in the #lisp channel description)
23:08:02 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp
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23:12:05  Good morning
23:12:32  Good evening.
23:12:46  Good night.
23:13:08  Adlai: alright
23:13:13 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@62-47-139-220.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp
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23:21:25  WTF is (declare (values ))  CLHS says nothing about it
23:21:49  smoofra: declares the return value type of the current function
23:21:56 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
23:22:01  assuming the declare is directly inside a function
23:23:57  is this a cltl thing that didn't make it into the standard?
23:24:30  no idea.
23:24:56  http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_values.htm has VALUES as a type specifier
23:25:18 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp
23:25:22  antifuchs: right, but not a declaration.
23:25:26 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Success]
23:25:35  true
23:26:24 svante_ [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-152-221.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp
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23:29:33  If there is Common Lisp, is there uncommon lisp, or nonstandard lisp?
23:29:54  lukjad007: there are dozens of lisps.
23:30:10  pkhuong Oh. Are they all functionally the same?
23:30:16  lukjad007: no
23:30:37  lujad007, Common Lisp was an attempt at standardizing several dialects coexisting in the 70s and early 80s
23:31:06 -!- svante_ is now known as serichsen
23:31:29  xb
23:31:34  It drew on concepts from many different Lisps available at the time, and was intended to simply be a core subset with identical API which each Lisp implementation would provide. Thus, "common".
23:33:55  Adlai I see. Besides lispworks.com and and http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ are there any other resources that are recommended to look at for someone just starting out in lisp?
23:34:05 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
23:34:13  minion: tell lukjad007 about PCL
23:34:14  lukjad007: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
23:34:14  minion, tell lukjad007 about successful-lisp
23:34:15  lukjad007: please see successful-lisp: Successful Lisp is a book providing an all-around summary of Common Lisp, available online at http://www.psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/
23:34:31  serichsen, he already has PCL...
23:34:32  Thank you :)
23:34:36  oh sorry
23:34:41 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6B45E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"]
23:34:46  Lispbot?
23:34:47  PAIP is also good, but not free.
23:34:54  minion: are you a bot?
23:34:55  i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''.
23:35:04  minion, tell lukjad007 about PAIP
23:35:05  Oh, I see. Excuse me.
23:35:05  lukjad007: look at PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/PAIP
23:35:16 -!- jleija [n=jleija@24.214.122.46] has quit ["leaving"]
23:35:39  Thank you minion, Adlai and serichsen
23:35:40  lukjad, are you using Lispworks trial?
23:35:50  no problem :)
23:35:53  Adlai I am not.
23:36:04  PCL's lispbox?
23:36:13  Adlai I was just following links and tips on lisp learning
23:36:49  I just heard about this channel and thought that it would be a good place to idle and learn :)
23:37:04  how to enable paredit when in the eval (like for example the buffer your enter when type e in sldb)
23:37:47  Anyway, thank you. I'll be around
23:37:55  it really helps to have a REPL handy. try the Lispbox link at PCL's site
23:37:58 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp
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23:38:08  Adamant will do.
23:38:14  Pardon, Adlai
23:38:21  lol
23:38:25  no I won't
23:38:27 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp
23:38:32  Adamant lazy today
23:38:49  hehe
23:38:49  Adamant, it would have been lazier to type "/me lazy today"
23:38:51  :P
23:38:56  lukjad007: are you on windows or linux or Mac?
23:39:01 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Client Quit]
23:39:19  p_l Linux!
23:39:30  Adlai: it would be too much work to figure how to be maximally lazy
23:39:32 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp
23:40:10  But if you do that, you get Haskell... Truly lazy people seek CL and its macros.
23:40:11  :D
23:40:22  lukjad007: http://unya.wordpress.com/2009/06/07/linux-common-lisp-quickstart/ <--- preempting any questions on "how do I install sbcl/SLIME/clbuild"
23:40:47  p_l Thank you :) I appreciate it. :)
23:41:18  lukjad007, welcome to Lisp.
23:42:01  Adlai Are there any words I shouldn't say here, like snake or D- or the like?
23:42:26 -!- svante [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-158-148.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
23:42:55 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-24-18-248-252.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit []
23:42:58  Adlai As in, is this like mentioning vim on #emacs?
23:43:23  snake? D-?
23:43:44  I don't think so...
23:43:45  lukjad007: not really. you can even get away with praising Perl
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23:44:15  "Libraries" is probably not a good word to mention, though ;)
23:44:15  lukjad007: I think that if you avoid flaming, it will be fine :)
23:44:20  ROTFL
23:44:33  Adlai *cough*Python*cough* *cough*C++*cough*
23:44:54  Inferior languages for inferior people, I suppose...
23:45:06  Sorry Adamant Sorry, tabfail
23:45:56  lukjad007: Python is also the name of the compiler used by CMUCL? and SBCL internally, so...
23:46:00  :P
23:46:16  I'd hesitate to use the "J" word around here.
23:46:18  Are there any plans to add thread support to SBCL on Windows?
23:46:28  Quetzalcoatl_, no, the world needs more J.
23:46:33  Quetzalcoatl_: Javajavajavajavajava ;-)
23:46:40  To teach them how to efficiently handle array operations ;)
23:46:42  Jahova
23:46:43 *Quetzalcoatl_* retches.
23:46:45  Oh.
23:46:47  The J word.
23:46:52  Jeepers.
23:46:54  Jeep!
23:47:05  My friend's dad drives an old JEEEEEP
23:47:17  uh oh, I just thought of another J word.
23:47:30  Adlai Jacob?
23:48:20  hm, no. It's a NC17 word...
23:49:06 -!- plage [n=user@58.186.146.148] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
23:51:34  Night all :)
23:51:39  Thanks for all the help.
23:51:42  Goodnight good sir.
23:51:44  goodnight
23:51:47  Have fun with Lisp :D
23:52:04  Thanks You guys don't mind if I lurk here?
23:52:12  Nope.
23:52:29  hehe, we're lonely here.
23:52:37 -!- lukjad007 is now known as ShadowChild
23:52:39  (I'm a newcomer too btw)
23:52:44  Hello, ShadowChild.
23:52:50  My sleep nick
23:52:55 *ShadowChild* is lukjad007
23:52:55  haha lol.
23:53:10  I guess I'm kinda-sorta a newcomer, even though I discovered Lisp nearly 4 years ago.
23:53:10  sleepnik. hehe. never heard that one before.
23:53:20  I keep coming and going.  As I do with all languages.
23:53:27  I first heard of Lisp 3 years ago in Metamagical Themas
23:54:02  I copied out the example programs into a CLISP repl (didn't find SLIME back then), and it didn't work because Hofstadter used some Lisp 1.5 or something...
23:54:04  :)
23:54:06  zzzzzzz
23:54:11  lol
23:54:14  gave up then, and only came back to Lisp recently.
23:54:50 -!- Captain_Thunder is now known as Captain_Away
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23:59:02  antifuchs: do you think there's a reason repo.or.cz stopped updating its mirror of your mirror of SBCL's cvs?