00:00:20 heh? You want to read-sequence into a stream? 00:00:33 Correct. Actually, a lot of them. 00:01:08 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-131-126.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:01:27 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-131-126.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 00:01:43 .. you do realize that read-sequence is used to read from a stream into a sequence, right? 00:02:48 I have no idea how it works under the hood. I just want to get whole files as strings so I can regex them. 00:03:24 WarWeasle: read the spec for read-sequence. Your idea doesn't make any sense. 00:03:36 it *almost* makes sense. 00:03:48 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:03:50 of course, it will probably be faster to deal in bytes rather than characters. 00:05:33 So...can I create a buffer the size of the file and turn it into a string? 00:05:49 You can even create a string of the right size! 00:05:59 ah. I think he's missed that strings are vectors of characters. 00:06:15 I keep forgetting, lisp is not perl... 00:06:23 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-215.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:25 no, it is not 00:06:28 (Yay!) 00:06:52 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 00:07:09 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 00:07:28 I don't mean that badly, I just default into thinking like C or like Perl. Lisp is ..... not. 00:09:26 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:14:48 That is cool... 00:17:12 -!- asksol [n=ask@175.243.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:19:24 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:20:06 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 00:24:30 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:55 lolit1 [n=hotstuff@78.190.24.204] has joined #lisp 00:27:31 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 00:28:20 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.116.30.176] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:28:28 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.190.87] has joined #lisp 00:32:13 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Client Quit] 00:32:58 -!- lolit1 [n=hotstuff@78.190.24.204] has quit [Client Quit] 00:35:56 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:37:47 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 00:37:58 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:41:37 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-215.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:41:39 -!- jyujin [n=mdeining@82.113.121.143] has quit [] 00:44:09 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 00:46:00 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.95] has joined #lisp 00:47:28 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-133-190.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:55 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-196-77.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:44 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:50:56 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A62F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:51:03 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:19 xinming__ [n=hyy@125.109.252.15] has joined #lisp 00:53:50 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.95] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:55:20 jan247 [n=jvliwana@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 00:58:45 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:58:46 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 01:00:59 ausente2 [n=user7994@189-19-121-91.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 01:02:07 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.136.238] has joined #lisp 01:02:11 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:02:28 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C648.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:02:38 01:02:46 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.255.55] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:02:51 speechless? 01:03:35 Sorry. ssh escape sequence. 01:03:58 flaran [n=flaran@adsl-157-7-210.jan.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:20 -!- flaran [n=flaran@adsl-157-7-210.jan.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 01:07:28 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.253.186] has joined #lisp 01:07:58 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 01:09:10 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.136.238] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:10:48 -!- Pegazus_ [n=awefawe@host122.190-31-41.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:12:31 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.242.117] has joined #lisp 01:12:45 oh, naughty CCL (or naughty me). I try to create a file with the name "*", it thinks I'm making a wild pathname. 01:13:18 -!- ausente [n=user7994@187.34.42.81] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:13:41 and as much as it's probably my fault for not using pathnames correctly, I can't help but think my real mistake is using them at all. 01:14:38 -!- xinming__ [n=hyy@125.109.252.15] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:19:20 hefner: try "\\*" as name 01:20:28 that gives me a name component of "\\*" 01:20:52 xinming__ [n=hyy@218.73.140.11] has joined #lisp 01:21:23 apparently so, but (open (make-pathname :directory '(:absolute "tmp") :name "\\*" :type nil) :direction :output) creates a file named "/tmp/*" 01:22:11 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 01:22:15 that's.. interesting. 01:22:56 oh well, I should be encoding these strings before they hit the filesystem anyway. 01:23:25 (ccl:run-program "touch" '("/tmp/*")) is shorter 01:23:42 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:23:51 it's shorter, but that hardly seems relevant 01:23:53 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@70.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:25:25 *hefner* really hates pathnames. 01:25:56 -!- erk is now known as Bez 01:26:19 Has anyone used ppcre:regex-replace-all in a case-insensitive search? 01:26:38 -!- Bez is now known as Bezerker 01:26:44 i probably did, why do you asking? 01:26:58 hefner: clisp, last i checked, would return names from DIRECTORY that it couldn't process with OPEN due to wildcard characters 01:27:12 sbcl includes escapes 01:27:54 (regex-replace-all "brad" "brad Brad BRAD" "Joe" :preserve-case nil) doesn't seem to match other cases. 01:28:10 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.253.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:28:13 xinming_1 [n=hyy@218.73.141.77] has joined #lisp 01:28:36 oh, CCL and SBCL both give me "\\*" when I peek in the directory where these files live. 01:28:52 WarWeasle: (regex-replace-all (create-scanner "brad" :case-insensitive-mode t) "brad Brad BRAD" "Joe" :preserve-case nil) 01:29:04 Xach: fortunately, the odds of me ever running anything on clisp are probably zero. 01:30:14 WarWeasle: :preserve-case doesn't toggle the regular expression's case sensitivity, but only modifies how the replacement string adapts to each match's case. 01:30:34 Ohhhhhh.... 01:31:47 So it's more powerful than a regular search replace. 01:32:00 reading the documentation or reaching for one's dictionary (preserve is *not* the antonym of ignore) is often useful. 01:32:07 or (regex-replace-all "(?i)brad" "brad Brad BRAD" "Joe" :preserve-case nil) 01:33:11 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.142.4] has joined #lisp 01:33:34 and preserve-case is nil by default 01:34:07 Okies...that's what I get for assuming perl again. 01:34:21 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.242.117] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:33 kinnetica [n=kinnetic@208-58-64-106.c3-0.129-ubr4.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:34:38 Thanks, it's just frustrating getting over these little bumps sometimes. 01:35:38 well, man perlre largely applies to cl-ppcre 01:37:42 -!- cl-newb-aka-gent [n=richard@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:38:03 -!- xinming_1 [n=hyy@218.73.141.77] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:39:03 -!- fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:40:22 -!- xinming__ [n=hyy@218.73.140.11] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:41:12 Well, thanks for bearing with a newbie. Belive it or not, this saves me hours to days of mistakes. 01:41:37 And I promised I wouldn't puss out and write it in perl. :) 01:42:19 *stassats* made a transition from perl for scripting some time ago too 01:42:50 now, I forgot every bit about perl i knew 01:44:18 stassats: to lisp? 01:44:40 madnificent: sure 01:45:19 I would like to get there myself. Cons cells are far superior to perl's lists and I don't have to look up things like @{$array[8]} 01:45:32 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-185.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 01:45:46 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-185.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 01:46:51 (disclaimer: That was just one example of why lisp is better, it's not inclusive... I don't want to start a war) 01:47:13 -!- Orest^bnc is now known as Orest 01:47:45 don't worry, it's #lisp, you can easily bash perl 01:48:03 I'd rather bash Lisp. 01:48:24 *Xach* bashes bash 01:48:35 WarWeasle: if you want, #haskell sometimes yearns for Lisp-Haskell flamewar... ;-) 01:49:31 -!- ausente2 is now known as DrunkerEphaum 01:49:43 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:50:28 -!- DrunkerEphaum is now known as dalton 01:50:36 hello p_l...and I think I'll decline that war. haskell hackers are a breed apart. They're a small group, but they are dedicated to the cause. 01:51:53 p_l: and that's the sort of thing that makes me consider writing a transform for mandelbrot ;) 01:51:57 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.139.52] has joined #lisp 01:52:23 lol 01:52:40 WarWeasle: yeah, they managed to out-troll a troll not so long ago 01:53:12 but given the rather large cross-section of 4channers and haskellers.... 01:53:25 o rly? 01:53:26 bing! 01:54:09 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:54:22 hefner: at least the channel isn't filled with "have you read your SICP today?" 01:55:02 I wouldn't think haskell types could understand 4chan, it's so, procedural. 01:55:47 p_l: well, have you? 01:55:49 WarWeasle: it's all in FourChan monad 01:56:19 hehe 01:56:20 WarWeasle: a cleaned, vetted version available through Yotsuba ;-) 01:56:43 *TDT* remember now he still needs to read SICp 01:56:59 xinming__ [n=hyy@218.73.140.46] has joined #lisp 01:57:15 ramus`: I recovered my SICP copy yesterday. Today was the time to drop my stuff at my friends place, since I can't fit it into my suitcase given my need to pack food 01:57:44 fair enough 01:58:13 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:59:24 hefner: if you feel like living on the haemorrhaging edge again, should help with random float perf a bit, and may die on you randomly (although i haven't been able to make it do that yet) 01:59:30 I'll have to raid fusss' repo for his speed-oriented hunchentoot (if much is left from hunchentoot in it) 01:59:57 p_l: d :: h -> poop -> tentacles -> trannys 02:00:24 missing a couple => here. 02:00:57 (is it sad I can't even comprehend Haskell grammar?) 02:01:00 WarWeasle: I think I'd like a main dish of /u/ instead of /d/ 02:01:08 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Anyone can be smart; a genius is someone who does something amazing with their intelligence."] 02:01:19 pkhuong: sounds like fun, if I can ever finish up this idiotic mp3 player and move on to something that uses floats 02:01:23 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:28 (interesting curve to the development. the first 400 lines of code took 12 hours and implemented 80% of the features. the next thousand lines of code took a week. the last hundred lines of code are taking.. another week) 02:01:49 well, not 80% of the features, but 20% of the feature and 80% of the important functionality. 02:02:05 WarWeasle: with a side dish of /a/ and /jp/. And TvTropes for uberprocrastination for the rest of the day (I'll have to block it during work hours...) 02:02:05 p_l: question for you, if you know ppcre? 02:02:27 WarWeasle: I think there are people better versed in it here. I'm always stumbling around with regexes 02:03:15 *p_l* plans to slip CL into his new workplace 02:03:29 maybe more coffee will help me write a convincing unit test :\ 02:03:46 xinming_1 [n=hyy@125.109.250.118] has joined #lisp 02:03:49 Why doesn't ".*" match all previous lines in :multi-line-mode? 02:04:19 I'm trying to strip the ".*" off of html. 02:05:11 because that's not what multiline means. When multiline mode is on, the anchors ^$ match the beginning/end of line, instead of beginning/end of string. 02:05:30 Same as in perl and other perl-compatible engines. 02:05:56 (scan-to-strings "(?ms).*foo" " 02:05:56 02:05:56 fooo") 02:05:59 So :multi-line-mode != /blah/g 02:06:16 s will do the trick 02:06:17 You want DOTALL (?s). In perl-land, single-line mode isn't the opposite of multi-line mode. 02:06:40 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-196-77.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:07:08 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.142.4] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:07:53 man perlre 02:07:53 http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man1/perlre.1.html 02:08:53 DOH! I've been using regex for years and I didn't know that. I just always add /isg to the end of all my expressions. 02:10:58 -!- kinnetica [n=kinnetic@208-58-64-106.c3-0.129-ubr4.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 02:11:06 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.139.193] has joined #lisp 02:11:28 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.139.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:13:45 p_l: FYI, I'm playing around with that tvtropes.com idea. 02:17:31 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.136.75] has joined #lisp 02:18:45 -!- xinming__ [n=hyy@218.73.140.46] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:20:57 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:22:38 kinnetica [n=kinnetic@208-58-64-106.c3-0.129-ubr4.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:23:01 fusss [i=73802d4a@gateway/web/freenode/x-b580310ef2bc5910] has joined #lisp 02:23:10 greetings 02:23:37 -!- xinming_1 [n=hyy@125.109.250.118] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:23:50 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.136.75] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:24:34 http://paste.lisp.org/display/82635 .. i don't get why the method for TEST-CLASS yields T there .. (hope i got that paste right; it's late/early ... :P) 02:25:13 lnostdal: what are you using for a non-relational database? 02:25:15 salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has joined #lisp 02:25:31 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CD87.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:25:31 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-215.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:59 rucksack is amnesiac and elephant is impossible to build without a ton of warnings, some severe 02:26:00 troussan [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:22 lnostdal: you always pass the same lisp object to lex-var-info. 02:26:29 fusss: is rucksack's amnesia retrograde or anterograde? 02:26:29 (trace lex-var-info) 02:27:00 lnostdal: Well since it's a macro, rather trace the function its expansion calls. 02:27:10 (trace lex-info) 02:27:55 Well since that is a macro too, you should really stop writting useless macros... 02:28:14 segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1FE52.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:23 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1F11B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:28:52 fusss, i just use postmodern 02:29:11 lnostdal: Use: (defmacro show (var) `(format *trace-output* "~&~S = ~S~%" ',var ,var)) ... (show obj) ... 02:29:41 There's no need for all this implementation dependant stuff... 02:29:56 -!- kinnetica [n=kinnetic@208-58-64-106.c3-0.129-ubr4.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 02:30:21 lnostdal: you haven't lived yet. rucksack and elephant make storage look utterly sexy. "look", being the keyword. 02:31:11 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.139.193] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:32:21 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:35 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.144] has joined #lisp 02:33:05 pjb, hm, i'm using macros and returning a code that refers to a "literal" lexenv because stuff from sb-cltl2 doesn't have enough information about the lex-environment "yet" 02:33:16 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:33:17 sbcl does type induction or whatever the term is 02:34:01 ..i'm trying to get hold of that internal type information 02:34:03 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 02:34:19 ..as it propagates .. or, well, is done propagating 02:35:16 e.g., CL-USER> (let ((x 42)) (show (lex-var-info 'x)) x) ==> (LEX-VAR-INFO 'X) = (INTEGER 42 42) no (declare ..) etc. needed to get hold of type info 02:36:30 -!- fusss [i=73802d4a@gateway/web/freenode/x-b580310ef2bc5910] has quit ["Page closed"] 02:37:19 kinnetica [n=kinnetic@208-58-64-106.c3-0.129-ubr4.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:37:45 lnostdal: you really want a transform. 02:39:56 -!- troussan [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:40:32 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.144] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:41:28 ok, pkhuong .. i never did get to look at sb-c:deftransform .. maybe now's a good time .. . :) 02:41:44 lnostdal: what about: (defmacro show (var) `(format *trace-output* "~&~S (of type ~S) = ~S~%" ',var (type-of ,var) ,var)) ... (show obj) ... 02:45:31 it's too late by then, pjb .. (type-of ..) is @ run-time .. my head's spinning though 02:47:02 ok 02:47:12 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B31614E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Success] 02:47:37 -!- kinnetica [n=kinnetic@208-58-64-106.c3-0.129-ubr4.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 02:47:39 dys [n=andreas@p5B31614E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:29 the paste doesn't really show a real use-case .. hm, the test-bodies calling a function with a compiler-macro defined for it would though, i think 02:50:42 lnostdal: I think I have a static-type-case hack in lisp paste. 02:54:52 FASL question... 02:55:29 If I have some .lisp files that have been loaded by one implementation, and I load them in another, will the implementations step on eachother's fasls? 02:55:49 Adlai: if they have the same extension, probably. 02:56:36 minion: asdf-binary-locations? 02:56:37 asdf-binary-locations: asdf binary locations is an ASDF extension which organizes your FASLs based on machine type. http://www.cliki.net/asdf-binary-locations 02:56:44 When they have different lisp-implementation-type in general they have different extensions for the fasl files. 02:59:21 but that's be not so general with machine-type, while having both 32-bit and 64-bit versions is quite possible 02:59:32 s/be // 02:59:48 pjb, like this, http://paste.lisp.org/display/82635#1 , i think 03:01:06 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.254.248] has joined #lisp 03:03:25 well, everything is of type T, besides nothingness 03:05:58 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:12:40 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 03:14:56 class-declarations in make-method-lambda-internal (src/pcl/boot.lisp line 599 doesn't include a type decl. when the argument is a user-defined class for some reason 03:17:16 lnostdal: because it's not used for anything? 03:17:47 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:18:31 -!- TDT [n=TDT@126.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 03:19:03 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 03:19:12 what do you mean? .. it can be used to dispatch at compile-time 03:19:51 sbcl already use the information for "normal types" to speed things up in methods quite a bit 03:21:31 it's useful for things like fixnums, because they're routines optimized specifically for fixnum, but there isn't anything optimized for your class 03:21:46 there could be :) 03:21:57 (see the paste) 03:22:23 and you couldn't tell what methods are defined at run-time, to do dispatch at compile-time, as i understand at the moment 03:23:17 yeah, but this is "inside" the methods .. after "outside" dispatch, even 03:23:19 lnostdal: well, you are into implementation internals 03:23:31 yeah, i'll just try and see what i can break here .. heh 03:24:36 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 03:24:46 CL-USER> (test (make-instance 'test-class)) 03:24:46 (LEX-VAR-INFO TEST-CLASS): TEST-CLASS 03:24:46 FAST-TEST-CLASS: # 03:24:46 03:25:03 yay .. probably broke a million things though .. 03:26:15 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:30:54 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:32:33 classes are too dynamics too reason about them at compile-time 03:32:42 s/dynamics/dynamic/ 03:32:51 s/too/to/ 03:35:31 should I request a cl.net project for the bfft stuff? 03:35:49 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-215.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:36:30 hefner: smells a bit like overkill for a single-file project ;) 03:36:37 yeah 03:39:42 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:41:01 dkcl [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 03:41:01 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit [Client Quit] 03:43:21 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 03:43:58 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 03:44:06 -!- bobf_ [n=bob@host81-151-255-247.range81-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:45:14 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 03:46:31 seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:56:53 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:01:31 ick. never noticed beach's original code was GPL. 04:02:28 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-125-22-12.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:17 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E44306.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:33 lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:03 -!- switch [n=user@84.102.251.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:18:11 switch [n=user@32.251.102-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:24 fenris_ [n=fenris@ppp-70-254-42-109.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:45 -!- _stern_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E449A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 04:30:56 slyrus: Who is beach? I keep seeing reference to beach and vietnam. I used to live/work in Vietnam. Ended up marrying a hot Vietnamese chick. Now we are back in San Diego. Her mom and brother are visiting us from Vietnam now. 04:32:31 (= beach plage spiaggia |Robert Strandh|) 04:32:55 -!- seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:33:20 he uses multiple nicks to make an impression that's there is a lot of people using Lisp 04:40:28 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:50:43 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:54 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.135.16] has joined #lisp 04:56:45 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.123.115] has joined #lisp 04:59:24 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@static-122-103-239-152.ng-fam.svips.gol.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:05:45 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:06:18 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:18 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 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simple Common Lisp library for writing vectors and matrices into LaTeX tables. http://www.cliki.net/latex-table 05:44:09 If you only want a matrix, you're looking at a simple ~4-5 line function. 05:44:38 -!- Bezerker is now known as erk 05:44:57 pkhuong: thanks 05:55:51 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:10:05 Pegazus_ [n=awefawe@host122.190-31-41.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 06:10:57 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:13:59 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-210-19.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:18:44 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 06:23:19 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:26:22 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.66] has joined #lisp 06:32:33 xinming__ [n=hyy@125.109.243.137] has joined #lisp 06:34:57 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-74-49.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 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[n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:32:33 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-237-196.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:12 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-135-234.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 08:51:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@225-48-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:54:15 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:56:27 ejs [n=eugen@225-48-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:35 -!- switch [n=user@32.251.102-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:02:03 asksol [n=ask@223.218.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 09:03:43 Hmm. ECL doesn't like my hairy loop. 09:05:12 have you tried waxing? 09:06:50 CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.110.113] has joined #lisp 09:09:19 hefner pasted "awesome loop" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82639 09:09:39 D: 09:10:28 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 09:10:56 hefner: you cannot use a while clause before 'for' or 'as' clauses 09:11:15 I can in SBCL and CCL ;) 09:11:34 -!- asksol [n=ask@223.218.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 09:11:44 this is a good opportunity to read the spec and refine my understand of LOOP though, which thusfar has been defined as "whatever CMUCL and SBCL let me get away with" 09:11:58 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:18 if you're at it, make it style-warn in SBCL :-) 09:12:27 hefner: is there a reason to use cmucl in this day and age, considering the existence of SBCL? 09:12:49 harleqin [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-143-237.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:13:15 long floats? 09:14:19 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Client Quit] 09:14:33 sykopomp: I can't think of a great one. I learned on CMUCL first, though. Five years ago, SBCL still smelled a little funny. 09:15:00 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@70.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:15:35 I get the idea it's taken years of pain and suffering for the SBCL hackers to win back all the ancient magic that got discarded in the fork. 09:17:20 *hefner* doesn't want to rearrange his loop =( 09:18:06 hefner: clearly, the proper solution is to either: A. write your own looping macros a-la-graham-crackers, B. switch to iterate and make it a dependency for all your code, forever. 09:18:13 :) 09:18:17 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:18:32 I looked at iterate, it wasn't good enough. 09:18:40 oh? 09:21:30 I don't remember the specifics, just that I thought its extensibility wasn't sufficient for whatever funky iteration I was doing at the time. 09:21:56 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.116.231] has joined #lisp 09:21:59 o 09:22:23 by the way, hefner, what's a good starting place to learn how to use McClim, considering I've never done actual GUI stuff before? 09:24:22 dunno. what would constitute a good CLIM tutorial? 09:24:37 dys` [n=andreas@p5B316A3D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:57 something that can get someone started from ground 0, without having to look at sources or be familiar with the stream-based approach I keep hearing about :\ 09:25:17 i started from http://mcclim.cliki.net/Documentation 09:25:39 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:25:50 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:07 I'd probably take the three-pronged route of starting in the listener and playing with the various drawing and layout functions, then defining an application frame (maybe rip one off from an example) to play with layouts and various gadgets, then figure out how to define presentations and commands 09:27:29 (which I think that clim primer out there explains, or you could read the source to the address-book demo, or dev-commands.lisp in the listener) 09:27:45 Examples directory is useful 09:27:55 -!- harleqin_ [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-190-109.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:28:40 thanks :) 09:28:50 schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 09:29:32 (the listener, in particular, is almost entirely "leaf" code that can be read and digested in small pieces) 09:30:35 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B31614E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:32:15 there's some general weirdness with CFFI on ECL (on linux/x86_64, at least). it can't find "getenv" trying to load osicat, and the use-foreign-library forms in all my libraries fail. 09:38:10 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16AEF7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:38:41 eni4ever [n=admin@79.114.44.104] has joined #lisp 09:43:38 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 09:45:01 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 09:46:27 -!- dys` is now known as dys 09:46:48 -!- Foofie is now known as Fufie 09:49:43 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:50:14 danlei [n=user@pD9E2E754.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:16 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 09:52:45 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:56:35 mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 09:56:48 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Client Quit] 09:57:05 hefner: You'd have to check for the scope of loop-finish, but as quick hack, you could replace the first "while (< a b)" with "for yadda = (unless (< a b) (loop-finish)" 10:02:02 Wow, this contains quite an interesting bunch of CL libraries: http://wcp.sdf-eu.org/software/ 10:03:51 mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 10:04:05 great presentation, too. 10:04:20 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 10:05:42 love the pictures. They seem so random :) 10:11:09 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:11:30 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:14:31 tcr: that's a neat approach. I rewrote the loop in a different, uglier way, also involving loop finish. 10:15:01 -!- Pegazus_ [n=awefawe@host122.190-31-41.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:15:07 Pegazus_ [n=awefawe@host122.190-31-41.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 10:15:19 Blkt [n=Blkt@host-78-13-248-154.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 10:15:40 "neat"??? 10:16:01 okay then, that's a shitty approach, and you should be ashamed of yourself. 10:16:14 You're welcome. :) 10:16:31 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:10 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:19:38 schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-067-241-191.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:19 ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 10:23:28 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:23:30 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-2-8.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:24:00 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 10:24:45 -!- ejs [n=eugen@225-48-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:24:47 wobble``` [n=user@74.196.9.26] has joined #lisp 10:26:09 jyujin [n=mdeining@82.113.121.143] has joined #lisp 10:27:30 -!- wobble`` [n=user@74.196.9.26] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:28:30 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 10:31:23 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:31:57 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:32:55 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 10:33:40 ejs0 [n=eugen@225-48-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:28 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B316A3D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:35:48 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 10:43:55 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 10:45:16 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 10:47:53 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 11:01:15 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-85-141.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:02:30 -!- eni4ever [n=admin@79.114.44.104] has quit [Client Quit] 11:05:13 ausente [n=user7994@189-19-121-91.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 11:08:16 jao [n=jao@94.Red-88-6-161.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:32 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-66-250.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:09:05 -!- ausente is now known as dalton 11:09:36 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:16:23 ejs [n=eugen@225-48-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:49 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:20:33 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:22:11 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 11:25:51 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 11:29:16 herbieB: Nekthuth works much better now! I still have a Missing ']' error when requiring mcclim, though... 11:29:30 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:32:30 -!- jyujin [n=mdeining@82.113.121.143] has quit [] 11:32:48 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 11:34:43 -!- ejs0 [n=eugen@225-48-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:39:03 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:39:47 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:39:52 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 11:44:30 -!- ejs [n=eugen@225-48-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:45:05 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:52:56 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0CBE.versanet.de] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.94.1"] 11:55:46 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:57:22 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:57:36 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.128.86] has joined #lisp 11:59:19 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 11:59:35 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:01:59 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-85-141.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:02:00 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-27-219.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:04:13 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:12:10 -!- jao [n=jao@94.Red-88-6-161.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:15:50 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:16:03 -!- xinming__ [n=hyy@125.109.73.154] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:16:11 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:21:07 switch [n=user@32.251.102-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:09 hello 12:24:03 elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:25:05 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 12:27:18 -!- schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-067-241-191.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:31:42 elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:36:06 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-135-234.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:36:39 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 12:37:57 -!- sqweek [n=none@203-206-65-102.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:38:33 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-66-250.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 12:38:43 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:14 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 12:42:45 |Grub| [n=nyao@217.149.190.121] has joined #lisp 12:43:10 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:43:28 Sikander: Oh ew. I just got that too. And yet it didn't happen ebfore 12:45:18 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:54:43 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:59:26 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=nyao@217.149.190.221] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:59:45 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.110.113] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:10:21 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:11:17 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:13:40 artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has joined #lisp 13:16:58 -!- artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has left #lisp 13:21:02 herbieB: well, it seems like there's some terrible symbols around in some packages... But I think it only helps nekthuth's "completeness" :) 13:21:34 herbieB: Lemme know when there's a new version or repository; I'd be happy to test-drive that again! 13:23:24 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@70.162.187.21] has joined #lisp 13:23:32 Sikander: I just hate vim now :) 13:24:01 Usbfs is deprecated. Argh. 13:25:00 herbieB: lol I gather the escaping has to be done on the vim side... 13:25:45 Sikander: I don't know what you do to fix this. Not many lanugages have keywords that contain [] in them. 13:25:59 Sikander: Vim used that fact to use those symbols in another way. 13:27:33 herbieB: ah... makes sense in a way. I have to admit I don't understand why anyone would want to use ] as a keyword, though; it's probably drei in mcclim again 13:28:19 Sikander: Yeah, i don't think it happens very often in CL either just because [] is usually reserved as a reader macro for the user. 13:29:18 herbieB: well, I think for now I'll have a look at if it is at all possible to not use (i.e. load) this drei thing of mcclim. 13:30:42 jao [n=jao@88.6.161.94] has joined #lisp 13:31:08 -!- gz` is now known as gz 13:32:50 Sikander: Nah, i just fixed it and put up 0.3.2 in the CL side. 13:33:03 herbieB: woowoo! 13:33:05 Sikander: So no new vim plugin part needed, just a new asdf-insall 13:35:08 herbieB: Well, what can I say, it works! I'll give it a more thorough testdrive, though. Thanks! 13:35:14 Sikander: Awesome :) 13:37:08 herbieB: well, I can't imagine that there are any other packages with weirder keywords, so I guess there won't be any similar issues in the near future ;) 13:37:34 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:39:16 -!- younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 13:42:25 blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has joined #lisp 13:44:25 Dodek [n=user@wikipedia/Dodek] has joined #lisp 13:45:16 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:46:33 hey, when i try to profile some code using sbcl profiler (the sb-sprof one), i keep getting following error "WARNING: No sampling progress; possibly a profiler bug.". does anyone know the reason behind it? 13:46:44 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:47:54 Dodek: how long did you profile for? 13:48:27 1000 repetitions, i'm gonna try more 13:49:21 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:49:30 here you go, it works now. i was kinda confused by this error message though. 13:51:00 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-66-250.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:54:16 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:56:33 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:58:17 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:00:13 joast1 [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 14:01:35 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:01:46 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:06:30 lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 14:06:38 Dodek` [n=user@77-254-60-239.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 14:06:41 hi 14:07:01 -!- Dodek` [n=user@77-254-60-239.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:10:50 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 14:12:30 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 14:12:32 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:20:24 -!- Dodek [n=user@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:23:56 dys [n=andreas@p5B316A3D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:10 suonik [n=chatzill@ip-140-227.zax.pl] has joined #lisp 14:26:59 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:30:27 -!- wobble``` [n=user@74.196.9.26] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:36 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 14:34:52 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:45:14 -!- switch [n=user@32.251.102-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:47:00 switch [n=user@32.251.102-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:23 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-210-19.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:26 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 14:51:02 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 14:52:37 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-227.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:55:41 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:59:17 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:03:24 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16AEF7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:05:31 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-27-219.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:07:56 -!- frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:12:21 plutonas [n=plutonas@62.103.98.54] has joined #lisp 15:13:32 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.182.128] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:13:58 rlb3 [n=rlb@70-138-117-197.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:09 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F61A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:45 ryepup1 [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 15:20:59 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:37 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:26:01 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.182.128] has joined #lisp 15:31:33 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:36:04 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 15:36:55 -!- rlb3 [n=rlb@70-138-117-197.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"] 15:38:42 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-122-228.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:40:06 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:40:24 Greetings 15:42:03 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:45:51 loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.133] has joined #lisp 15:46:37 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-122-228.netcologne.de] has quit ["using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12"] 15:47:50 -!- suonik [n=chatzill@ip-140-227.zax.pl] has left #lisp 15:50:24 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:25 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:52:59 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:55:56 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 15:56:23 -!- jan247 [n=jvliwana@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 15:58:10 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:59:03 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2E754.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:00:54 danlei [n=user@pD9E2E754.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:12 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-122-228.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:03:57 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-122-228.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:05:12 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-122-228.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:06:28 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-122-228.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:07:08 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-122-228.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:07:36 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@62.103.98.54] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:08:21 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:09:10 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-122-228.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:10:49 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-210-19.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:12:36 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-210-19.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:57 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-122-228.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:15:47 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-94-2.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:22:01 -!- Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:23:30 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:38 Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:23:50 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.133] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:28:05 Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 16:28:48 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:29:58 asksol [n=ask@140.243.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:30:20 what's a recommended unit test framework? 16:30:38 (other than Ch9 of PCL) 16:31:17 Simple: Dick Waters' RT. 16:31:23 Adlai: fiveam, stefil, etc... 16:31:32 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6E5E5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:51 I've already seen the list on CLiki, I'm wondering if there's one that's most used 16:31:53 There are a number of more complex frameworks that fe[nl]ix just listed. My colleague John Maraist has just released the NST framework. 16:32:06 Adlai: regrettably, I think the answer is "no." 16:32:36 *Adlai* rolls his eyes... 16:32:52 "Embarrassment of riches." 16:33:43 what about 5am? I've heard good stuff about it earlier 16:36:01 Adlai: I believe the standard practice is to choose a random framework semi arbitrarily and customise it beyond recongnition. 16:36:47 hehe 16:37:47 hm, I think I'm gonna go with 5am just b/c of the quality of documentation... 16:38:03 -!- switch [n=user@32.251.102-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:38:37 -!- fenris_ is now known as cream_o_wheat 16:39:25 Once upon a time there was a survey page that reviewed all the known unit test frameworks (at that point in time). Very helpful for choosing. 16:39:33 -!- ryepup1 [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:39:48 this? http://aperiodic.net/phil/archives/Geekery/notes-on-lisp-testing-frameworks.html 16:40:02 DepthSort [n=Jonny@h-209-222-162-15.everus.ca] has joined #lisp 16:40:17 psf [n=user@32.251.102-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:07 Adlai: Yes, that looks like the one I recalled. MIght be worth updating it... 16:41:41 -!- Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:41:57 Wonder how that person's Stefil vs. 5AM tradeoff went 16:43:06 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-2-8.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:44:50 hm, after skimming that page, FiveAM seems to me like the best option for me. 16:45:23 jyujin [n=mdeining@vpn2770.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has joined #lisp 16:47:08 mjf [n=mjf@r11gz66.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 16:47:10 -!- |Grub| [n=nyao@217.149.190.121] has quit ["  ,     ."] 16:51:28 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:41 cl-newb-aka-gent [n=richard@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:15 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r11gz66.net.upc.cz] has quit ["GNU is *indeed* No UNIX!"] 17:00:29 -!- ausente [n=user7994@189-19-121-91.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:01:11 salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has joined #lisp 17:01:26 good afternoon 17:01:36 hallo 17:03:27 cl-newb-grovel-q [n=richard@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:42 -!- cl-newb-grovel-q [n=richard@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:03:45 -!- cl-newb-aka-gent [n=richard@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:03:59 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:04:11 cl-newb-aka-gent [n=richard@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:33 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:09:56 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:15 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E44306.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:18:51 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:19:22 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-122-228.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:21:19 Adlai: I use LISP-UNIT have am currently extending it to support numerical testing -> http://repo.or.cz/w/lisp-unit.git . It is a dirt simple and pretty un-sophisticated library, but it does what I need, basically. 17:22:46 what do you mean by "numerical"? 17:23:01 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:03 sequential tests? or math-related tests? 17:23:36 Adlai: Predicates and assertions to compare floating point numbers and arrays for "equality". 17:25:10 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-27-219.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:27:42 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:28:30 stuart71 [n=user@adsl-19-153-19.jan.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:14 does anyone know of a purely lisp-related fortune file and where I can download it? 17:30:43 tmh: bit of a can of worms, there. is building it in worthwhile? 17:32:06 salex: Not sure what you mean by building it in, but the routines handle the comparison in a pretty standard way. 17:32:26 -!- etate is now known as etate|away 17:33:05 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:33:26 there are some basic things you can do in a "standard" way, but a lot of times with numerical work your testing is going to be pretty problem dependant 17:33:30 is all i mean 17:34:58 salex: There are 2 basic comparisons in the library, compare significant figures and compare relative error. For arrays, it's relative error norm. For the relative error comparison, there are default values for epsilon, but you can optionally provide the epsilon that is appropriate for the numbers are comparing. 17:35:17 *you are comparing* 17:35:56 sounds reasonable 17:36:30 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-196-77.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:40 So, the key to using the comparisons is having an idea of the numerical accuracy of the routine or algorithm you're using and set epsilon accordingly. 17:36:51 yeah that helps for some things 17:37:01 ausente [n=user7994@189-19-121-91.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:37:26 i'm just thinking that a lot of the numerical tests i put in en up being kind of specialized, which made me question the benefit of abstracting it out 17:37:41 but a couple of routines wont' hurt , certainly 17:37:51 salex: Interesting, can you explain? 17:38:38 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:38:55 Rather, give an example. 17:39:00 nothing complicated. two cases i guess 17:40:48 -!- jewel_ is now known as jewel 17:41:17 one is really a different issue: once you've got tuned numerical code you may already be tracking accumulated deltas or something ans so there is a simple test in your loop which you do, rather than something that abstracts easily to a test case 17:41:30 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:41:31 -!- jao [n=jao@88.6.161.94] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:42:26 other one: maybe you don't care much about the relative error, rather the dominance or maybe tracking eigenvalues, somethign like that 17:42:28 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1DD3E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:43 so while I can see it could be nice to have a test comparison built in that doesnt' do stupid things like (= 1d0 x) or whatever, i think that typically you end up intertwining some of these tests. 17:44:02 otoh, i guess it could be a good regression 17:45:00 anyhoo, i'm off for lunch. bbiaw 17:45:12 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 17:46:05 salex: hmm, haven't thought about tracking eigenvalues. I presume you mean keeping the eigenvalue linked to the eigenvector and tracking how it changes. 17:46:20 salex: We need to continue this conversation. I'd like to get your input. 17:46:34 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-153-201.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:50 salex: But, good timing for a break, because I have a couple ankle-biters that need something to eat as well. 17:47:51 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:51:17 gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-95-53-161-22.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 17:54:01 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:40 artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has joined #lisp 17:55:50 I want to "clean up" the values in my hashtable, but (setf (gethash 'foo hash-table) (cleanup (gethash 'foo hash-table))) seems repetitive. How can I change that? 17:56:10 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:56:13 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:56:14 artagnon: what does "clean up" mean here? 17:56:37 pkhuong: See code: function cleanup for example 17:56:46 it operates on the value 17:57:15 You could write a wrapper around maphash. 17:57:37 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:57:38 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:58:12 pkhuong: oh, no. I meant that in the code pasted above, I'm writing (gethash 'foo hash-table) twice 17:58:28 I have different cleanup functions for each of the keys 17:58:34 s/keys/values 17:58:44 so I can't help that anyway 17:58:50 use a loop 17:59:00 don't use hash tables as objects. 17:59:22 pkhuong: why? I parsed it out into a hash table from json directly 17:59:30 very convininetly too using json-read-from-string 17:59:50 tcr: hm. Could you illustrate? 18:01:15 artagnon: (loop for (key function) on '(...) by #'cddr do (setf (gethash key table) (funcall function (gethash key table)))) [a macro with get-setf-expansion may be able to expand into more efficient code] 18:01:18 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-251-238.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:01:59 If the list is constant, SBCL -could- unroll the loop. :) 18:02:01 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-131-51.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:02:27 pkhuong: wow! the code looks awesome :) 18:03:05 pkhuong: I didn't understand your last comment in [] though... what expand into more efficient code? 18:03:40 tcr: pfah, magic unrolling. I was more referring to the fact that the setf expansion for gethash may be able to share some computations between the lookup and write. 18:04:22 pkhuong: oh, I got it now 18:04:23 I don't think it can in presence of threads, can it? 18:04:31 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 18:04:50 could compute the hash just once probably 18:05:14 -!- jyujin [n=mdeining@vpn2770.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has quit [] 18:05:52 jyujin [n=mdeining@vpn0517.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has joined #lisp 18:07:16 tcr: and some optimistic caching, even with concurrency. 18:08:29 ah, that brings me to the next question- I need help deciding which DB backend to use for caching these hashtables 18:08:32 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:09:03 The unfortunate part is that this is Emacs Lisp, so my choice is restricted. 18:10:10 Notice that emacs lisp is discussed in #emacs, not here. 18:10:36 they'll probably be able to point you to solutions 18:10:46 Right. Ok. 18:11:50 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 18:12:12 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:12:17 -!- denios [n=kessler@router1.itwm.fhg.de] has left #lisp 18:12:18 artagnon: but you could use emacs-cl 18:12:25 minion: tell artagnon about emacs-cl 18:12:25 artagnon: direct your attention towards emacs-cl: Emacs Common Lisp is an implementation of Common Lisp written in Emacs Lisp. http://www.lisp.se/emacs-cl/ 18:12:39 pjb: yeah, I know. But it's *really* heavy. 18:12:54 My program will bloat up unnecessarily, no? 18:13:00 Not really. 18:13:35 If you have to use emacs primitive you can call them as directly as from emacs lisp code, and otherwise, it's compiled to emacs bytecode like emacs lisp code. 18:14:19 pjb: that I know. I mean that my program will perform significantly worse, no? 18:14:27 I write Common Lisp otherwise anyway. 18:14:35 Not worse than an emacs lisp program. 18:14:35 It'll uglify your backtraces 18:15:06 tcr && pjb: Oh, is that all it'll do? 18:15:10 then I'm using it. 18:15:13 artagnon: The real question is whether you need emacs? 18:15:25 pjb: what do you mean? 18:15:33 it's my primary editor 18:15:53 Ok for an editor. But for anything else, write rather Common Lisp code. 18:16:22 And if you have an application needing a user inferface, you can still write the application in CL, and the user interface in emacs-lisp. 18:16:23 pjb: There are certain things that Emacs does really well. I'm chatting on rcirc for example 18:16:29 it's a very uniform interface 18:16:32 and very convininet 18:16:44 pjb: oh, can I do that? 18:16:59 pjb: could you elaborate/ recommmend some reading on that? 18:17:03 Of course. It's even very easy with slime/swank. http://paste.lisp.org/display/22414 18:18:06 oh yuck! It needs slime to bridge this communication :( 18:18:10 The classical way to integrate an application with emacs is thru comint or just an emacs process, and emacs process filters. But slime/swank offers an easier way to do it. 18:18:18 artagnon: Huh? 18:18:30 Which is good: you can now run the application on a different computer than the user interface! :-) 18:18:42 nikodemus pasted "cleaning up" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82648 18:18:53 hm, that's interesting 18:19:26 nikodemus: I assume that was for me? 18:20:37 tcr && pjb: My next project will be in Common Lisp then. I'll bridge it to Emacs Lisp using this Slime/Swank technique 18:21:21 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:21:37 artagnon: yep 18:22:13 nikodemus: it's very beautiful! I'll learn from it. Thanks! :D 18:22:27 nikodemus: that looks like callf ;) 18:22:50 hah, i'd quite forgotten callf 18:22:55 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:26 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:23:37 You see it's useful! 18:23:49 *artagnon* looks up the callf macro 18:24:22 artagnon: http://osdir.com/ml/lisp.alexandria.devel/2008-01/msg00001.html 18:24:34 artagnon: It comes with the cl lib in Emacs 18:25:41 *artagnon* nods 18:25:46 I can use it. 18:27:28 jmbr [n=jmbr@166.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:28:29 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:32:30 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:33:55 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:36:19 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:04 It's funny that you're not supposed to require emacs-cl, yet it seems like every extension and its brother uses it. 18:41:10 require is the wrong term. 18:41:17 tmh: not supposed to? 18:41:32 True. It's hard to write Emacs Lisp after Common Lisp. It feels restrictive. 18:41:33 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:41:36 -!- jyujin [n=mdeining@vpn0517.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has quit [] 18:41:57 stuart71: I'm trying to find the recommendation about using cl.el 18:42:43 For code supposed to be included in the GNU Emacs distribution, your code may not depend on the runtime of cl.el 18:42:55 it may, however, depend on macros defined in cl.el 18:42:56 I load it first thing in my .emacs file 18:42:57 tcr: thanks. 18:43:15 stuart71: heh, that's kind of my point. 18:43:37 There have been attempts to rewrite Emacs in Common Lisp 18:43:45 Well, in general it's better that when you're in Rome, you try to talk like Romans do. 18:43:46 tmh: I would guess that that will change eventually 18:43:47 but imho, that's a little pointless 18:44:01 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-11-118.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:28 stuart71: When RMS travels to the undiscovered country? 18:44:46 tmh: heh 18:46:31 what's the rationale behind not depending on cl.el for GNU Emacs distributed code? 18:46:46 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-27-219.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:47:07 I think tcr expressed it. 18:47:09 TekLok [n=TekLok@c-98-247-9-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:30 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-98-5.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:47:32 stuart71: RMS does not like it 18:47:37 My point is that maybe rome needs a renovation if everyone is putting the same facade on their buildings. 18:48:21 The macro part is the interesting part anyway 18:48:49 many of the runtime functions are there in Elisp itself, and are faster because many are implemented in C 18:48:54 oh, I guess I just assumed that cl.el was just some elisp code. I never before noticed anything about a runtime regarding cl.el 18:49:43 stuart71: runtime means anything that will be available after macroexpanding the code; it's the functions 18:50:25 I don't understand. RMS doesn't like Common Lisp? 18:50:46 artagnon: yeah, some people are irredeemably weird (: 18:51:04 artagnon: He's stated that repeated. There's not much to understand. He's known for have strong, uncompromising opinions. 18:51:28 But in very simplified terms, Emacs Lisp is just a subset of Common Lisp 18:52:13 tmh && antifuchs: It's probably just sour grapes. He feels he should have written Emacs in Common Lisp originally- now, nothing can be done about it :p 18:52:14 artagnon: No, not really. The scoping is different, namespaces handled differently, it's fundamentally as different as CL and Scheme. 18:52:26 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-2-8.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:52:29 artagnon: it's not at all a subset 18:52:35 the syntax is superficially similar 18:52:43 and some functions and macros do similar things 18:52:46 Yeah, no lexical scoping 18:52:50 hm. 18:52:51 cl and elisp are subsets of lisp 18:52:57 but in the end, there are huge differences that not even (require 'cl) can fix 18:53:09 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-89-145.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:53:16 antifuchs: ofcourse. CLOS for example. 18:53:28 No CLOS has been implemented in Elisp. 18:53:40 sequences. displaced arrays. characters that are not numbers. 18:53:40 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-98-5.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:54:11 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-122-228.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:55:47 artagnon: eieio implements CLOS doesn't it? 18:55:50 hm. I wouldn't really blame him for developing his own Lisp dialect (which looks like Common Lisp) to build an editor. It was the sensible decision at the time to optimize stuff like display (by writing those in C) 18:56:02 *artagnon* looks up eieio 18:56:15 I never appreciated displaced arrays until I actually needed/figured out how to use them. Now I use them frequently. 18:56:19 antifuchs: A few days ago, your boinkmarks were mentioned on the ecl list. Perfect time to chime in and ask juanjo whether he wants to see ecl participate, too! 18:56:27 tcr: oooh 18:56:41 another lisp mailing list to subscribe to (: 18:56:48 (will chime in tomorrow) 18:56:50 available through gmane, so no problem 18:56:53 cool 18:57:20 Have you read this? http://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.html -- RMS's Emacs development experience 18:57:31 antifuchs: the last message in "Ecl shootout", by marko kocic 18:57:37 -!- guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:57:40 he didn't use Common Lisp initially, and now nothing can be done about it. 18:57:40 thanks (: 18:57:51 artagnon: I'm pretty emacs lisp predated common lisp. 18:58:02 *pre-dated* 18:58:36 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-9-252.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:59:12 " GNU Emacs Lisp is largely inspired by Maclisp, and a little by Common Lisp." 18:59:21 From the elisp manual 18:59:32 Oh. 18:59:43 tmh: it definitely post dated lexical scoping, including efficient implementation tricks. 19:00:45 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.173.57] has joined #lisp 19:01:00 pkhuong: Ok, from that sentence, it seems more that emacs lisp and common lisp were developed contemporaneously. 19:01:20 Thanks for all the wonderful suggestions on this channel. I'll be off to write more code now. 19:01:23 -!- artagnon [n=artagnon@unaffiliated/artagnon] has left #lisp 19:01:34 jao [n=jao@94.Red-88-6-161.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:39 tmh: emacs definitely existed before 1994. 19:02:16 pkhuong: :-) I was thinking more in relation to CLtL. 19:02:57 guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 19:04:00 pkhuong: Is lexical scoping considered unequivocally better than dynamic scoping? 19:04:26 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-122-228.netcologne.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:04:34 last I read about that it was still debated :) 19:04:44 tmh: as a default, yes. Whether optional dynamic scoping is a feature or a bug is debatable. 19:07:39 nikodemus pasted "somewhat type-smart LOAD-TiME-VALUE" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82649 19:08:52 nikodemus: don't make load-time-value too smart... at the moment, I use it to defeat type inferences in some places 19:09:14 Krystof: in sbcl? 19:09:33 not least in sbcl itself 19:11:01 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-196-77.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:11:15 -!- TekLok [n=TekLok@c-98-247-9-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:11:25 for read-only-p ltv this gets the normal derived type, for non-read-only-p this only gets declared types and checks if there is THE or TRULY-THE around the value form 19:11:50 (for file-compiled code) 19:12:26 for COMPILE it gets the CTYPE-OF of the resulting value for the non-read-only-p case 19:12:45 does that sound problematic for you? 19:14:07 current sbcl gets the full type for read-only-p case under COMPILE, and nothing otherwise 19:15:23 is there a TRULY-TYPE declaration btw.? .. i've been trying to understand how the lexenv stuff and checkgen.lisp is connected .. perhaps tagging the types with some extra meta-data is possible? 19:16:18 Apropos of nothing, I've been scraping the net for lisp-related recordings and podcasts and find very little. Any suggestions? 19:17:09 lnostdal: (truly-the
) == (let ((tmp )) (locally (declare (optimize (sb-c::type-check 0)) (the tmp))) 19:17:28 stuart71: I think the sicp video lecturers are available 19:18:36 oh .. hm 19:18:54 have a look at M-. the 19:19:06 tcr: I do have those, thanks. They're great. I'm thinking more in terms of something that I could just listen to on the commute to/from work, so no source code to look at. 19:20:40 nikodemus: well, part of what I do is to have unportable-float structs (at xc time) which actually become floats at cold-init time 19:21:03 so I don't know whether struct constructors are declared or derived, but either way it would be wrong 19:21:42 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F61A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:22:07 Krystof: hm 19:22:18 anything non-FP? 19:22:32 oh wait 19:22:40 i don't think this is a problem 19:23:18 as long as the other value is not _used_ before it's been frobbed, everything should be fine 19:24:49 benny [n=benny@i577A0CBE.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:24:54 and since it's not a float yet, it cannot be used -- i would think, unless there is some (if *floats-cooked* x (cook-float x)) code there 19:25:34 no, wait. that's not right. will think about this 19:29:25 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:30:33 francogrex [n=franco@129.227-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:30:59 hi, anyone uses defstruct in their programming still? 19:31:06 yes 19:31:34 nikodemus: I ask because in Peter seibel's book he says it's sort of useless now 19:31:42 that there are CLOS 19:31:46 Sure, I use it all the time 19:32:18 these: (load-time-value (make-unportable-float .. ? 19:34:03 francogrex: slot accesses to structs are faster, atomic-incf can be sanely implemented on word-sized struct slots, and ditto for dynamic-extent structs 19:34:47 nikodemus: I see and in the hyperspcs I see that ch 8 is totally devoted to defstruct. so seibel saying it's worthless is just plain wrong then 19:34:57 not quite 19:35:23 What exactly is he saying in the book? 19:35:49 for _most_ use-cases you are better of with defclass. it should be your default unless you _need_ something defstruct provides that clos instances don't 19:35:52 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:36:44 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.116.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:37:04 -!- gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-95-53-161-22.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 19:38:01 tcr: yeah, he's saying that defclass is better and that it's not worthwile discussing defstruct in his book 19:38:09 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:38:09 he is right 19:38:34 most of the things defstruct are good for are somewhat implentation dependent 19:38:50 I think Franz implements defstruct with clos. At least, it seems I can modify my struct definitions just as I want :) 19:39:21 I do not know in how far existing instances get updated accordingly. But redefining a slot hasn't beaten me yet 19:39:52 tcr: i think they have two slot vectors -- raw and pointers 19:39:58 i'm using ecl. Can you give me a very simple example that defclass can do and that defstruct cannot? 19:40:09 multiple inheritance 19:40:21 mejja [n=chatzill@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:40:46 easier to express complex initialization 19:41:26 -!- cream_o_wheat [n=fenris@ppp-70-254-42-109.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:41:48 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-188-098-223-171.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:27 ok; but I still find it funny that the hyperspecs devote more to defstruct than almost anything else of macros in there 19:45:23 francogrex: it's just beastly complex with lots of silly stuff folded in 19:45:27 francogrex: if a spec uses a lot of prose on a given feature, it simply means that there's a lot to specify. 19:45:42 it doesn't mean it's more or less important -- just there 19:46:09 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:46:50 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [] 19:47:03 Xof: the unportable float stuff doesn't really look problematic wrt LTV. as far as i can see it just arranges for the appropriate constructor to be called at load time -- no structures masquerading as floats that i can find, and make-unportable-float doesn't have a declared type so the derived type of the LTV will be T in all cases 19:47:13 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-66-250.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:47:25 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 19:48:49 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-131-126.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:49:07 Paraselene [n=Not@79-67-131-126.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 19:49:35 postamar [n=postamar@69-165-139-54.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:50:13 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:51:15 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-131-126.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 19:52:42 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:53:16 -!- ausente is now known as Tesla 19:53:18 nikodemus: okey dokey 19:53:28 -!- Tesla is now known as NikolaTesla 19:53:53 What is Unreachable Code? 19:54:14 (if t :foo :bar) ; :bar is unreachable 19:54:24 bgs100: dead code 19:54:34 dead code is different 19:54:49 uh? 19:54:52 (progn (+ 1 2) x) ; (+ 1 2) is dead 19:55:30 Thanks 19:55:34 nicktastic: meaning it serves no purpose? 19:55:44 oops 19:55:51 I meant that for nikodemus 19:56:03 Ah, yeah, well unreachable code usually becomes dead code after appropriate compiler transformation :) 19:56:11 unreachable code: can be proven to never be executed 19:57:11 dead code: "pure" calls whose return value is unused, assignments from variables to unused variables, etc 19:57:33 both are distinct, both are common compiler terms -- not sbcl specific 19:57:50 nikodemus: I meant (+ 1 2) in your example above. It's not returned by progn and has no side effects, so it's dead code? 19:58:09 gotcha 19:58:09 (i'm not saying sbcl compiler notes use them consistently or correctly, though) 19:58:13 yes 19:59:01 -!- asksol [n=ask@140.243.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 19:59:23 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-131-126.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [""That's our secret... we kill you with kindness. What's your secret?""] 19:59:42 in general you first eliminate unreachable code, then dead code: (let* ((x 42) (y (- x)) (if x (foo x) (quux y)) 20:00:37 first you eliminate (QUUX Y), which causes the (- X) and its binding to Y become dead 20:01:06 (ignore the mismatches parens...) 20:02:08 i actually understood that :) 20:02:44 and sbcl doesn't say that Y is unused 20:04:14 stassats`: because it is used, only by unreachable code. 20:04:39 ejs [n=eugen@252-32-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:58 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-131-126.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:29 the same with dead code (let ((x 10) (y 20)) y x) 20:06:02 again, the variables are used. 20:07:24 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:07:26 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:07:39 -!- Paraselene [n=Not@79-67-131-126.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Success] 20:08:00 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:24 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-185.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 20:14:01 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060215]"] 20:14:01 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F61A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:45 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:19:41 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@155.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:20:42 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:20:56 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:22 mrSpec_ [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 20:21:37 -!- mrSpec_ [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Client Quit] 20:23:28 -!- ejs [n=eugen@252-32-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:24:04 Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 20:24:59 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:43 anyone know if there is a way to include or possibly process a clp file from inside the code executed to obtain a clp tag value? (Allegro Webactions) 20:28:02 clp? 20:28:07 I don't think many people here have ever used Allegro Webactions. 20:29:11 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:29:27 yes, am thinking that it's probably the case. 20:29:36 any common users of Hunchentoot? 20:30:00 that would be more common, yes 20:30:02 At least a dozen. 20:30:05 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:13 you guys use it in production environments? 20:30:36 -!- francogrex [n=franco@129.227-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:30:37 TekLok [n=TekLok@c-98-247-9-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:44 how does it handle heavy load? is it in the same league with Apache or not? 20:31:50 Moe111: i use hunchentoot for dynamic content and nginx for static content. works pretty well. 20:32:24 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B316A3D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.94.1"] 20:33:33 Xach: not to appear indiscrete, but how much load do you handle? 20:33:49 Xach: per month, say 20:34:20 Moe111: if twitter can successfully run on ruby, I don't think you have anything to worry about. 20:34:46 Moe111: i've been #1 on delicious a few times without much issue 20:35:09 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@166.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:35:14 great. that's reassuring. 20:35:28 pkhuong: I hear you. I just want to avoid hassles for my own sake. 20:35:31 Moe111: last i checked, hunchentoot was not very well tuned for absolute speed. it may be unsuitable for high loads. but it really depends on what "high" means to you. 20:35:55 I've worked with a system that handles 500k hits a month, and it gets tedious when you have to pump water out of the bilge as a matter of habit. 20:36:30 dys [n=andreas@p5B316A3D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:31 if it can handle 500k~1m hits a month without crawling past a 1s page generation speed, I think I'll be happy 20:36:46 my server made 105,000 dynamic graphics in the past 7 days 20:36:54 load average: 0.0 20:37:47 ok. So here's my first question revised for Hunch: is there a way in hunchentoot to dynamically determine which file gets loaded depending on the request? 20:38:30 ie. the URL part can be pretty non uniform. somedomain.com/asdf and anotherdomain.com/asdf might map to completely different dynamic content (i.e. different structurally) 20:38:30 Moe111: files are not by default associated with requests. 20:38:32 Hunchentoot's model isn't file-oriented. 20:38:36 great. 20:38:47 can you "process" a file "manually"? 20:39:02 I use the browser's specified language to choose localized versions of template files 20:39:19 e.g. you get a request, you decide that it is going to be a file type "double-column" or something, and you load that template file (which is ASP/JSP/CLP style html mixed with tags) ? 20:39:26 Moe111: you can do whatever you want, really. 20:39:45 Moe111: at the lowest level, a function is called when a request comes in. that function can do literally anything. 20:39:49 does hunchentoot have a template processing "framework"? 20:39:55 -!- schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:39:59 Hunchentoot just serves whatever is in its *dispatch-table* 20:40:11 No. But there are a couple you can plug in. I use HTML-TEMPLATE also from Edi Weitz. 20:40:21 I see. 20:40:28 you can use anything you want, e.g. CL-WHO, HTML-TEMPLATE, to generate your content 20:40:52 Hunchentoot does not have a lot of frameworky bits that are almost an application, just add some little bit. It's a toolbox for processing HTTP requests. 20:41:24 does it have sesssion management and link rewriting abilities? or is that something I have to handle as the app dev 20:41:24 ? 20:42:09 yes to both 20:42:14 Moe111: it has some session management things, but there's a separate library for link rewriting (called URL-REWRITE) 20:42:27 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:42:45 ok. So what I'm hearing is that it has most of what aserve/wa has, but in more disparate locations. 20:42:59 I will investigate. thanks 20:43:56 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:06 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:44:14 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 20:44:26 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:46:58 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-185.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:50:28 asksol [n=ask@140.243.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:51:28 -!- TekLok [n=TekLok@c-98-247-9-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:53:43 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["You are Debian Linux. People have difficulty getting to know you. Once you finally open your shell, they're apt to love you."] 21:00:57 krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-114-76.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:05:12 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-2-8.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:07:28 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:08:55 -!- cl-newb-aka-gent [n=richard@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:09:35 -!- jmbr_ is now known as jmbr 21:10:03 where's fusss? he could brag about the rocket he strapped on the back of his hunchentoot setup to serve ten jillion requests per second. 21:11:24 kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:12 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-89-145.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:16:48 you mean he could make a fuss about it? 21:17:01 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has quit [] 21:19:00 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:09 *tcr* messes with sbcl's open 21:19:29 argh. CVS collision! 21:19:43 -!- codefacekillah is now known as djkthx 21:21:28 pkhuong: my condolences 21:24:47 -!- Blkt [n=Blkt@host-78-13-248-154.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:25:10 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 21:26:22 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.173.57] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:26:32 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 21:27:14 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 21:28:46 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:30:53 dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.81.4.208] has joined #lisp 21:31:16 -!- dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.81.4.208] has left #lisp 21:35:47 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.173.57] has joined #lisp 21:37:39 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:37:51 -!- stuart71 [n=user@adsl-19-153-19.jan.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:39:13 schoppenhauer_ [n=christop@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 21:39:26 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-66-250.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:40:31 -!- schoppenhauer_ [n=christop@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:44:20 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:24 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:46:55 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:47:29 davazp` [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:28 schoppenhauer_ [n=christop@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 21:48:42 -!- davazp` [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:48:48 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:49:43 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:49:47 -!- schoppenhauer_ is now known as schoppenhauer 21:50:07 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-185.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 21:50:51 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:03 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:52:44 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 21:53:06 pkhuong: nice work! 21:53:42 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:53:58 nikodemus: productivity is inversely proportional to the amount of time left before meeting the prof ;) 21:54:27 hah 21:55:44 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:55:47 I'd like to see what mandelbench says w/ the naive version, compared to C, now. 22:02:55 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:04:54 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:05:36 harleqin_ [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-158-184.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:06:13 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:36 -!- harleqin_ is now known as svante 22:12:03 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-122-228.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:15:00 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-185.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 22:15:50 -!- asksol [n=ask@140.243.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:59 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:18:32 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:21:31 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:21:44 -!- harleqin [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-143-237.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:22:47 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:25:20 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:25:44 khumba [n=khumba@S0106000f664eede0.ok.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:06 cl-newb-aka-gent [n=richard@c-67-183-22-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:23 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.173.57] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:30:23 pkhuong: regarding "successfully" - I heard a lot about certain fail-whale... 22:31:35 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 22:31:41 btw, anyone here deploying production app on tech.coop? Especially lisp-related 22:32:36 p_l: successfully enough to live on it. 22:33:26 pkhuong: Did they found a business model yet? 22:34:14 Copyright their name and charge media companies each time they utter it? haven't got a clue 22:35:29 the startup I'm in has more chances for a sound business model, I think... 22:36:31 (like charging landlords etc. - student accommodation business) 22:39:07 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:42:28 also, yes, where is fusss and his hunchentoot-strapped-to-ICBM ;-) 22:44:47 pkhuong: x86: g++ 2.151s, sbcl 3.619s; x86-64 g++ 2.697s, sbcl 2.382s 22:45:12 so _very_ nice work! 22:45:35 (my previous timings were on x86-64) 22:46:07 nikodemus: What are those timings? 22:46:40 the naive mandelbench http://random-state.net/log/3452921796.html 22:46:55 thx 22:47:01 nikodemus: so comparable to the hand-rolled C++ version? Very cool. 22:47:10 (those were the double float times, doing complexes now) 22:47:25 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-66-250.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:52:23 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:16 afk - sleep time 22:57:42 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [] 22:58:24 nikodemus: would you mind pointing me to the C++ code involved, too? can't see it there. 22:58:56 antoszka: click on the first link. 22:59:13 right... 22:59:25 Hi time I learned the web, probably :) 22:59:34 suHiuHighu 23:00:23 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:00:36 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 23:00:37 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:02 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 23:03:29 0m6.010s g++; 0m7.537s sbcl, here. 23:03:40 antoszka: with 1.0.29.54? 23:03:46 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@35.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 23:04:48 pkhuong: gentoo packaged 1.0.29-something. 23:05:10 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.182.128] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:05:21 actually, g++ when optimised with -O4 goes down to 0m2.974s. 23:05:53 -!- lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:06:17 slash__ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A7B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:24 nikodemus is measuring the impact of a few recent patches. (gentoo-g++, I see. -O4 doesn't do anything more than -O3 on stock gcc) 23:06:40 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:54 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@155.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:07:09 nikodemus pasted "complete mandelbench numbers" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82655 23:07:12 Yeah. 23:07:19 Oh well, was just curious. 23:07:25 Good night! 23:07:46 In a situation where either MAP or LOOP will work, which should I use? 23:08:08 whichever is shorter. 23:08:49 MAP without LAMBDA looks better 23:09:33 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-188-098-223-171.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:10:31 MAP works on all sequences. 23:10:42 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0CBE.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:11:12 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-210-19.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:11:13 -!- slash__ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A7B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:12:36 -!- jmbr_ is now known as jmbr 23:14:37 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:16:37 -!- NikolaTesla [n=user7994@189-19-121-91.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:16:39 NikolaTesla2 [n=user7994@189-19-121-91.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:17:54 pkhuong: so, about sse instructions: do you think they could be moved to src/compiler/x86-common/sse-insts.lisp? 23:18:00 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-180-129-66.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:18:04 -!- mejja [n=chatzill@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:18:14 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-180-129-66.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:41 plage [n=user@58.186.146.118] has joined #lisp 23:19:44 Good morning 23:19:53 nikodemus: once the REX noise is factored out. 23:21:19 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1DD3E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:23:05 sbcl --- 3.975, g++-4.4 --- 2.999 23:23:21 does that seem like a forbidding task? 23:23:45 that is, would it be easier to just port the definitions to x86? 23:23:50 3,497 on 4.3, so gcc improved a bit 23:24:16 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 23:24:26 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:24:46 Shouldn't be too bad. There's only a couple emitting functions, which could probably be backend-specific. The REX-ful patterns for sb-disassem could just be conditionalised. 23:26:43 plage: I wrote a little manual for the FFT code. Perhaps you could sanity-check it: http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/software/bordeaux-fft/manual.html 23:28:18 -!- psf [n=user@32.251.102-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:29:20 hefner, I have no clue what your library does, but I understand the manual, so that's probably a good sign as far as the clarity of your documentation. 23:29:36 * had no clue before reading the manual 23:29:50 jan247 [n=jvliwana@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 23:30:17 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6E5E5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 23:30:38 WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:10 hi 23:34:39 hefner: links to fft and ifft in the "Multiprocessing Notes" section are wrong 23:36:37 plage: do you have any suggestions for mcclim performance benchmarks? one of the recent make-instance optimizations in sbcl seems to fire several times for mcclim, and i'd like to see how much a difference it really makes 23:36:59 -!- jan247 [n=jvliwana@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:37:18 Any idea where I can find the GPG key for the developers of lispbuilder-sdl? 23:37:24 eg. (make-instance record-type ...) calls should now be much faster 23:37:30 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 23:37:42 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F61A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:38:24 Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:52 nikodemus: ooh, neat. 23:43:17 -!- tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296bf1.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:48:46 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@c-24-35-95-148.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:29 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:51:12 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@35.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:51:15 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:24 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-251-238.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 23:54:52 this whole "p for predicate" thing can be pretty annoying sometimes. 23:55:07 can we have a community vote and just accept scheme's way of doing things in this case? 23:55:08 ;D 23:55:09 hefner: I am afraid that will have to wait. Could you remind me in a few days. 23:55:47 nikodemus: I am afraid that will have to wait. Could you remind me in a few days. :) 23:57:06 *Adlai* votes for ? and ! rather than /-p$/ and /^n/ 23:57:26 Adlai: or at least consistent usage of -p 23:57:40 Adlai: I'd be happy with just -p for single-word predicate names. 23:58:07 lol, is it cons-p or consp? and where did the p go in "atom-p"? 23:58:20 I'd rather have cons-p and atom-p 23:58:41 Are there any difference between (loop repeat N do A do B) and (loop repeat N do A B) 23:58:45 Actually, I think that this is John McCarthy going :P at us from the past. 23:58:48 it's not so much that 'p' is used, it's that the 'rule' is complex :< 23:59:06 leo2007, no. 23:59:18 WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp