00:02:51 oh crap 00:03:06 i think i solved my own problem just staring at a blank page 00:03:35 i think updates should happen within WITH-TRANSACTION :-) 00:03:39 brb 00:03:42 -!- fusss [i=738000be@gateway/web/freenode/x-38a4f0fe892ba7c4] has quit ["Page closed"] 00:04:47 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-139-234.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 00:05:21 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:05 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:06:17 -!- _bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit ["leaving"] 00:10:38 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 00:12:12 How can I check to see if a usocket socket has timed out? 00:12:27 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-182-115-160.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:00 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [] 00:16:05 you could check open-stream-p 00:18:12 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 00:21:09 though, it doesn't seem to work 00:21:12 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:21:43 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:22:32 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:35 Lycurgus [n=Ren@pool-71-186-174-244.bflony.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:12 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 00:27:23 -!- Blkt [n=wasdf@dynamic-adsl-94-37-247-217.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:29:24 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [] 00:35:55 is sbcl's info manual up to date? 00:37:47 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 00:38:59 more or less 00:39:00 leo2007: as far as i can tell, new things get documented. 00:39:05 and changed things too. 00:39:47 excellent 00:42:14 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:43:50 how do you quickly open a .lisp file known to sbcl? for example, sb-mop etc. 00:44:33 leo2007: i use M-. on a symbol 00:45:59 hmm, slime doesn't jump to sb-mop package definition. i wonder if it's a cross-compiling issue. 00:53:14 Xach: but what about when i see a new package but don't know which symbol it may have 00:53:32 usually i use the shell command 'locate' 00:53:41 leo2007: if you know the package name you can complete based on it in SLIME 00:54:01 in the SLIME REPL it would be: >> package-name: [TAB] 00:54:12 and if you're in a lisp file you can do C-c TAB I think? 00:54:26 unless you aren't using Emacs, then I have no idea wtf you and I are talking about. 00:55:06 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-208-82.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 00:55:25 optikalmouse: I'm using Emacs. 00:55:51 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-168-238-112.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:56:00 package-name:[TAB] complete all symbols including those from other packages 00:58:51 are you sure? I thought it would restrict it to a particular package... 00:59:31 optikalmouse: yes, I tried a few completions and it lead me to boot.lisp etc not sb-mop 01:00:11 hm, well you can do an apropos restricted to a package 01:00:42 all these are worse than `locate' 01:03:08 ...now I'm tempted to write some emacs-lisp to fix this problem 01:03:24 M-x locate ? 01:03:31 optikalmouse: ;) 01:03:58 or M-x rgrep, i don't like locate 01:04:41 optikalmouse: if you use external tool, it will be trivial to write that 01:04:51 i.e. `locate' 01:05:32 locate doesn't search contents, does it? 01:07:15 it search the whole system 01:07:30 rgrep is probably better for a project tree 01:08:14 how are you going to search for sb-mop? 01:08:47 no idea :( 01:09:31 so, you don't really need to look at sb-mop, otherwise you would know where to find it 01:12:39 so, it's defined at sbcl/package-data-list.lisp-expr 01:13:48 thanks 01:14:28 ugh, emacs didn't like that file 01:14:36 i blame fontification 01:14:42 it opens fine here 01:15:43 -!- pilot1123 [i=pilot@149.156.124.23] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:16:06 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:16:43 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-0032d1829e516adc] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:16:53 with slime loaded? 01:17:01 yes 01:17:16 i just C-x C-f the file 01:17:34 well, it opens, but it fails at fontification 01:18:41 -!- jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.165] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:18:45 stassats`: that happens very often 01:19:02 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 01:20:01 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:20:05 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [No route to host] 01:20:13 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p31046-ipngn101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:20:14 if you are annoyed, you can switch slime-fontifying-fu contrib off 01:21:10 inforichland [n=inforich@96-42-29-58.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:22:03 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-104-180.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:22:25 *jthing* is trying to gater a wake to commemorate Erik naggum for lispers in Oslo 01:23:12 At smuget 18.00 friday 01:24:18 gather 01:24:20 *leo2007* is not sure what slime-fontifying-fu does 01:25:05 fontification of #-sbcl(...) and some macros 01:26:06 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:27:06 like with-foo, do-foo, etc. 01:27:32 emacs becomes very slow in that file 01:27:54 it's pretty fast without slime loaded 01:28:22 i see 01:28:38 Is it to do with the fontification? 01:29:52 it's ok with slime-fontifying-fu not loaded 01:30:54 i ran (slime-fontifying-fu-unload) 01:31:00 does that disable it 01:31:27 i don't think so 01:31:38 not fully, anyway 01:32:39 any way to restart the remote lisp process from within slime? 01:33:52 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:34:35 M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp restarts the inferior lisp 01:34:39 not a remote connection, though. 01:34:59 Xach: yeah, i found that in the shortcuts too 01:35:09 -!- jackdaw [n=chris@cpe-098-122-166-119.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:36:17 technically, i guess something could be played with exec*(3) 01:39:09 right 01:39:15 salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has joined #lisp 01:39:31 it's an OS ssue 01:40:42 -!- ausente is now known as dalton 01:41:52 There's one typo in (info "(sbcl)Controlling Verbosity") should 'than' not 'then' 01:42:31 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 01:44:50 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-142-233.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:49:05 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:49:57 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:54:06 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:54:41 -!- dalton is now known as acrobat_reader 01:56:29 I am trying to gater a wake to commemorate Erik naggum for lispers in Oslo. 01:56:35 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 01:57:28 This being summer vacation and all it is proving a bit difficult 01:57:36 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 01:57:58 yes, i expect it would be 01:58:42 There are about 200 lispers who have worked under Naggun in Oslo! 01:58:49 -!- Guest8605 [n=user@72.14.228.129] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:59:15 But I'll settle for 20. 01:59:26 Naggum 01:59:28 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-183.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:00:14 well, good luck with that 02:00:29 thx 02:00:45 I didn't know about him until he died, but I read through a few of his posts when they were posted on planet lisp and he seemed to me to be pretty awesome 02:00:52 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:01:22 i learned a lot from his c.l.l posts when I was starting, certainly 02:04:45 what is vop? 02:04:55 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:06 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:05:32 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:16 virtual operation 02:06:39 it seems it is useful to write fast code, right? 02:06:54 well, you can generate assembly code through it 02:08:26 salex: do you think Andew Lloyd web's 'requiem' is appropriate 02:08:38 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:09:03 xach: How to restart a remote connection equivalent to slime-restart-inferior-lisp? 02:09:41 by hand 02:10:03 Thanks. 02:10:03 salex: I was thinking of 'Die Jesus' 02:10:19 xach: Thanks for the naggum bookmarks. Much good stuff there. 02:13:01 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:13:58 Die = god 02:14:21 in latin 02:14:54 really? 02:15:24 sunwukong [n=vukung@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 02:16:25 dei? 02:17:29 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.141.99] has joined #lisp 02:17:41 yes, Dei, sigh 02:18:06 *jthing* pounds his head for making such a stupid mistake 02:18:37 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 02:20:44 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:20:50 anyhow it is 'Pie Jesus' 02:21:13 Pie Jesu Domine? 02:22:21 haha 02:22:22 Andrew Lloyd Web 02:22:33 dlowe: you forgot "BANG" at the end :D 02:22:34 web? 02:22:44 Webbers? 02:22:57 er, Webber 02:22:58 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2F126.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:23:02 -!- manic12_ [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:23:36 p_l: That comes after "Dona Eis Requiem" 02:23:55 dlowe: Oh, I thought it was after each line 02:24:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGfjBhlFysM 02:25:23 wow. that's a seriously bad recording/encoding 02:25:41 make that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8iY24I1NWQ&feature=related 02:25:51 much better 02:26:24 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1C99A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:24 kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:55 segv [n=mb@p4FC1CBF2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:21 do you know if this indentation is correct http://imagebin.org/53481? 02:28:26 p_l: you may be right but I can't find a reference 02:28:27 nah, god wrote in lisp is much better 02:28:37 wgl: can i have the bookmark too? 02:28:57 I have slime-indentation loaded 02:29:07 leo2007: read http://planet.lisp.org 02:30:57 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:31:23 -!- stepnem_ [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:32:19 -!- Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:32:31 thank you for the bookmarks 02:32:42 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:32:49 any thoughts on slime-indentation? 02:32:56 stepnem [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 02:33:24 -!- stepnem is now known as Guest26201 02:37:42 fusss [n=chatzill@r125-63-184-176.cpe.unwired.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:37:49 -!- timchen119 is now known as nasloc__ 02:38:29 anybody know of an object persistence thing that doesn't have a "catch"? 02:38:41 no such thing 02:39:05 I think nyef has a tricky answer. did you find out if your question matches? :) 02:39:06 i just wanna be able to instantiate clos classes and have the objects persist transparently. sql is out of the question, unless it's hidden well. 02:39:24 buh. pasteback. sorry. 02:39:51 jlf` [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:40:13 i find it baffling that rucksack doesn't persist the database between sessions. what's the point of it then? I can always use global variables. 02:40:56 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 02:44:05 leo2007: Are you the person who was trying to implement cmwc4096? 02:44:16 rtoym: yes 02:44:33 it is now fast enough tho 02:47:30 hey rtoym :) 02:48:20 leo2007: Still interested in the others? 02:48:25 salex: Aloha! 02:48:36 how've you been? 02:48:40 salex: Where are you nowadays? 02:49:04 still in texas, but maybe not for long 02:49:10 interviewing next week... we'll see 02:49:11 rtoym: yes 02:49:42 leo2007: Ok. I'll probably send you a link to the rest instead of mailing them. Tomorrow. I don't have the code here at home. 02:50:13 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:50:21 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:50:22 salex: How long have you been in Houston now? Looking for a "real" job now? 02:50:50 I started here in 2009, so it's time 02:51:05 yeah, looking for a "real" job. market over here is terrible (40% down) though 02:51:14 erm 2006 02:51:16 started 02:51:24 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:58 but i decided a while ago not to stay here, so.... 02:52:13 (long term, i mean) 02:52:17 might stay another year 02:52:44 rtoym: I almost didn't recognise you. Did you change you irc id? 02:52:56 Now is not a great time to be looking for a new job. :-( 02:53:03 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-105.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:53:24 no it isn't. the 40% decline is from an AMS report we just got. REally cheered me up :) 02:53:39 leo2007: You mean my nick? No, I haven't change that in a long time. 02:54:26 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@r125-63-184-176.cpe.unwired.net.au] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 02:54:46 rtoym: my bad. 02:54:48 fusss [n=chatzill@r125-63-184-176.cpe.unwired.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:54:49 Tril [n=tril@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 02:56:38 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-37.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:36 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:59:27 rtoym: anyway, i'm not too stressed yet. Ask me again next year ;) 03:01:45 how's your research going? 03:02:37 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-199.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 03:03:20 ManateeL` [n=user@116.4.150.224] has joined #lisp 03:03:55 Research? I haven't done research in years. Starting doing some simulations though for wireless. Not that interesting right now, but could be. 03:04:22 should have aske how your summer was going ;) 03:05:05 is gsharp moving along? 03:05:14 Heh. Summer is nice. 03:05:50 I think you've confused me with someone else. :-) I've never even looked at gsharp. 03:07:02 wait, what? am i mixing peoples projects up? i am 03:07:13 damn. i've been away too long 03:07:20 why did i think you'd been looking at that? 03:07:25 weird 03:07:26 salex: look a bit .. franceward ;-) 03:07:32 yeah, i know 03:07:45 but rtoym and i have talked about wireless stuff etc. for ages 03:08:11 and for some reason i've now got him in the gsharp "bin" in my head 03:08:14 It's been a while since I've been on irc, so I don't recognize lots of people. But there are some old nicks still around. :-) 03:08:24 rtoym: you and i both 03:09:01 but i could have sworn we were talking reasearch-y things when ever ti was last. and s.w. ontario :) 03:09:48 but somehow i've got you mapped in with beach et. al somehow with thta project 03:09:51 weird weird 03:10:36 i think i am doing "ajax" without javascript 03:10:56 There is (was) some researchy stuff, but being the GSM site really limits the research. 03:11:03 rtoym: well, glad your summers been going well anyhow. 03:11:23 yeah, we talked about that (the limits) 03:11:24 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@r125-63-184-176.cpe.unwired.net.au] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:11:48 -!- inforichland [n=inforich@96-42-29-58.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [] 03:11:57 i, on the other hand, sometimes get too much. 03:12:04 if that makes sene 03:12:06 sens 03:12:07 e 03:12:17 Too much summer? Or too much research? 03:12:23 research 03:12:39 Wanna swap? :-) 03:12:42 and too much of this places summer, which kind of sucks 03:12:44 fusss [n=chatzill@r125-63-184-176.cpe.unwired.net.au] has joined #lisp 03:13:03 and my interview is well south of here ... so no change in that if i go 03:13:09 but at least less humidiy 03:13:33 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 03:13:45 I've been in NC for so long, I'm not sure I can handle anything much farther north. But Houston is way too far south for me. 03:14:03 yeah, me too. 03:14:10 Good luck on the interview, then! Lisp related? 03:14:22 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-52-51.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:32 (There, I'm on topic now.) 03:14:39 tenure-track. 03:14:49 but i can probably use more lisp than I have last two years, so there is that 03:15:30 Sounds cool. 03:15:55 yeah, could be good. sort of fell into my lap, so we'll see 03:16:22 get a nice vacation out of it anyway, even if it doesn't mesh 03:16:48 are you doing much lisping? 03:16:50 A vacation and an interview? How lucky is that? 03:17:24 yeah! well, they're paying the flights and it's palm trees and beaches there, so thought I'd take my wife and stay af few days 03:17:44 Officially, no lisping at work, but I have been playing with unicode. 03:18:20 understood. i've been in a matlab+python+c++ and a bit of tcl rut last 2 yearsish at work 03:18:44 haven't managed to convince them to use lisp 03:18:51 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.141.99] has quit [Success] 03:19:27 That sounds neat. I was in Geneva in Apr for business. Brought my wife and kid with me. At least they got the hotel room for free. And I convinced my boss he would save a lot of money on airfare if I stayed until Sunday. Unfortunately, I didn't really get much sightseeing in. My family did though. 03:20:00 Is lukego in Geneva now? If I had know, I would have tried to look him up. 03:20:07 Er, known. 03:20:33 i don't know. i really haven't been around here much since 2006ish, i guess. 03:20:35 lost track 03:21:03 i suspect my wife will get more sightseeing in that I, too. that's ok 03:22:21 going to germany too, septemberish 03:22:29 I do c++ now. The code is really gross, even for C++. Everything is an object, but nothing is abstracted. Just a random collection of junk, more or less. And nothing's commented and there are magic numbers everywhere. 03:22:45 don't think i'll have any time to poke around there much 03:22:49 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@r125-63-184-176.cpe.unwired.net.au] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 03:23:02 rtoym: that's a shame. I'm working with it in the context of a nice-ish project, at least 03:23:19 i really hate dealing with code bases like you describe 03:23:52 so you have my sympathy! 03:23:59 I think it was someone's new toy to play with. :-) 03:24:36 And we're afraid to refactor because if it ain't broke, don't fix it. 03:25:09 there's some sense in that i guess, but ... brittle, probably. 03:26:06 i've been having a bit of fun with a c++ system wrapped in tcl that has a pyton layer talking to the tcl rather than directly wrapping c++ 03:26:08 odd 03:26:20 but mostly works 03:27:14 Yes. Someone changed a bit of code to generate more random bits for the general case, but not otherwise used in particular cases. Changed performance by 1 dB. Weird. We eventually gave up trying to figure out why. 03:28:09 And the RNG doesn't match anything I can find anywhere. Looks kind of like a shift register, but the connections and shifting is all weird. 03:28:10 yeah, that's the problem with stuff like that. needles and haystacks 03:28:21 really?? now that's odd 03:28:32 i'd have expected something standard, there. 03:29:44 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-52-51.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:29:48 Yeah, me too. Don't know how that was chosen. We replaced it with mt19937, but nothing changed. So we put back the original. 03:29:55 heh 03:30:14 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-52-51.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:42 Anyway, I gotta run. Talk to you again soon I hope.... 03:30:56 likewise! 03:35:07 -!- acrobat_reader is now known as dalton 03:35:10 -!- bun_bun [i=dem@world.anarchy.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:35:10 -!- easyE [i=[lg39458@panix3.panix.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:35:10 -!- zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:35:10 -!- egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:35:10 -!- tcoppi [n=nuclear@57c3ed63-1294-45bd-a8e8-cdcc07cfa16f.static.grokthis.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:35:10 -!- vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:35:11 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-182-115-160.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:35:11 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@pool-71-186-174-244.bflony.east.verizon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:35:11 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit 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[i=sytse@speedy.student.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 03:36:45 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:36:45 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 03:36:45 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 03:36:45 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 03:36:47 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 03:36:48 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:48 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 03:36:48 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:48 frodef [n=ffj@24.80-203-67.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 03:36:48 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 03:36:48 cp2 [n=will@unaffiliated/cp2] has joined #lisp 03:36:48 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 03:36:48 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:44 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-37.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:16 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:49:17 ruepel0r [n=rue@203.97.49.162] has joined #lisp 03:49:51 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:52:30 Ralith_ [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 03:54:30 ... I'll die because of sleeping habits, I swear 03:54:41 hah 03:54:46 *araujo* thinks the same sometimes 03:54:54 why the hell day isn't 48h? 03:55:02 it would fit my sleep at least 03:55:04 agree 03:55:06 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:55:17 36/12 is killing me 03:55:34 it's the not sleeping habits that will do you in, really 03:55:35 *araujo* takes 2 days as 1 day 03:55:51 *hefner* was dozing off at the wheel this afternoon. 03:56:20 when you wake up at 9pm and say 'morning' , you know you have a problem 03:56:40 araujo: hahaha 03:56:42 pshaw. morning is when I get up. 03:56:47 salex: agreed 03:57:03 proq` [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 03:57:11 or when you go outside, and you think it is monday, when it is actually thursday ...you know there is a problem too 03:57:14 besides, try saying `good morning' here, and see how many disagree 03:57:36 araujo: not neccesarily. but yes, if you had a wednesday meeting 03:57:40 araujo: I just noticed it's wednesday here and said "oh crap" 03:57:44 hah 03:58:03 I should be packing, cleaning my room and finalising my work agreement 03:58:38 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has left #lisp 03:59:01 *stassats`* sometimes wakes up in the evening and for a long time tries to understand that it's not actually a morning and he hasn't have to go anywhere 03:59:20 haven't even started. Not to mention I wonder how the hell I'm going to pay for travel from Aberdeen to Coventry 04:00:19 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:32 p_l, selling some lisp code? 04:00:53 araujo: current codebase is RoR, but I'm going to slip CL into it 04:01:15 or more like "I'm gonna use whatever I fancy while redoing the whole thing from scratch" 04:01:28 *araujo* found RoR so messy 04:01:33 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 04:01:33 I don't understand the fuss about it 04:02:37 araujo: it's quite nice, IMHO, though not best solution, even in ruby-land 04:02:52 at least compared to, let's say, PHP 04:02:59 well, that's true 04:03:10 but it's php ... the ugliest thing on earth 04:03:44 ahaas [n=ahaas@neptune.pettomato.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:42 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Success] 04:07:16 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-153.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:50 I was thinking of countering that, but I decided that COBOL looked more appealing 04:07:51 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-139-234.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 04:07:56 icylisper [n=user@115.99.32.68] has joined #lisp 04:12:54 and TECOs perversity crosses the line twice, making it better in the end 04:13:52 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-182-115-160.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:14:01 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:14:37 *p_l* wonders if someone ported last, most extended variant of TECO to unix 04:14:45 *ITS TECO 04:18:21 you want to hack some lisp in it? 04:18:41 stassats`: ... that is... interesting thought 04:19:08 I'd have to remember to make sure that you can't run it with root privileges :D 04:19:14 maclisp, even 04:19:56 stassats`: maclisp is quite unusable outside of PDP-10 or Multics. I don't know if it was ported to other machines, and PDP-10 had best compiler support 04:20:21 reminds me that I once seen a httpd written in maclisp 04:22:29 http://up.update.uu.se/httpd <--- here it is. MIDAS + MACLISP 04:24:10 supports writing webapps in LISP! 04:26:44 ... MACLISP had interesting FFI, I have to say 04:30:07 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-48-50.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:31:17 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:31:23 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:43 I'd say this approach could be quite good for modern lisps as well 04:34:51 Python etc. after all profit from the same approach 04:35:33 plymouth [n=sdf@60.234.62.23] has joined #lisp 04:35:36 -!- plymouth [n=sdf@60.234.62.23] has left #lisp 04:40:52 Rothbardian [n=user@121-73-191-209.dsl.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:12 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-153.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:52:09 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 04:53:26 -!- Rothbardian [n=user@121-73-191-209.dsl.telstraclear.net] has quit ["later"] 04:53:48 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-37.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:10 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Client Quit] 04:54:38 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:00:25 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:03:08 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:06:35 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 05:07:19 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 05:10:09 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:10:16 -!- dalton [n=user7994@189-19-121-109.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit ["eject"] 05:10:40 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 05:10:43 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:10:56 dalton [n=user7994@189-19-121-109.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 05:13:26 -!- icylisper [n=user@115.99.32.68] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:14:31 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-238.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:58 -!- dalton [n=user7994@189-19-121-109.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Client Quit] 05:18:45 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-5-100.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:01 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:19:52 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-10-107.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:20:44 Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:21:31 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 05:22:25 sup sup guys! 05:22:34 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:23:03 what .el code can i add to emacs so that it can "autocomplete" brackets 05:24:22 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-125-22-195.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:00 seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 05:25:19 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-142-233.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:26:13 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-130-155.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:26:59 gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-140-182.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 05:27:28 -!- proq` [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:28:53 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-238.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:30:10 OMG! someone killed kenny! 05:30:13 Bigshot_: paredit 05:30:35 ya what should i add in emacs i already downloaded paredit :) 05:30:36 paredit killed kenny? 05:30:39 there are some others, but paredit is preferred, though it messes up what you might be used to 05:30:56 -!- ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has left #lisp 05:31:18 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:31:28 i did require 'paredit but no dice 05:31:49 -!- ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has left #lisp 05:31:54 actually it's require 'paredit-beta 05:32:04 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:32:10 have you tried to read it's documentation? 05:32:22 its 05:32:43 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has left #lisp 05:32:51 Bigshot_: M-x paredit-mode 05:32:59 Bigshot_: And read on keybindings 05:33:07 cause it remakes quite a lot 05:33:37 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:34:31 afaik for simple bracket closing there's a setting in Emacs, but paredit does oh so much more 05:34:38 ejs [n=eugen@192-241-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:20 p_l: should i put this paredit-beta in site-lisp is that fine? 05:35:52 Bigshot_: wherever you want, as long as .emacs loads it properly :-) 05:37:54 Symbol's function definition is void: paredit-mode 05:38:10 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-139-234.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:38:36 maybe since its beta it should be paredit-beta-mode? 05:38:48 it's* :D 05:39:25 this its/it's thing is clearly a nasty bug brought on by people's insistence on using syntax 05:39:48 (:possessive "it") should be the official english spelling. 05:40:38 http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/ParEdit#toc1 <<-- activate it automatically doesn't work 05:40:39 and "its" deprecated in favor of the more straightforward "it (:present-tense "be")" 05:40:46 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 05:40:52 "it's"*** 05:40:54 see? 05:40:55 horrible bug. 05:41:08 sykopomp: you ought to be a english professor man 05:41:24 an* 05:41:41 Bigshot_: it's like we're communicating in perl or something. 05:42:28 sykopomp: Perligata :> 05:42:30 sykopomp: why am i getting this message? Symbol's function definition is void: paredit-mode 05:42:55 Bigshot_: check paredit-beta-mode 05:43:00 k 05:43:37 nope same thin 05:43:38 g 05:44:32 Symbol's function definition is void: paredit-beta-mode 05:45:20 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:45:29 What's your binding on C-k? 05:45:44 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:46:02 end of buffer 05:46:12 -!- thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:47:41 why no sykobabble topic discourse is ongoing in this channel this faithful day :? 05:48:04 p_l: in what way was Maclisp's FFI interesting? 05:48:33 luis: you wrote FASLs in assembly 05:49:17 ugh 05:49:43 ah, so it's "interesting" 05:50:05 which is kind of how Python, Ruby and other C-based runtimes do their FFI - not in target language, but in language the lib is written in 05:50:43 hey Riastradh you alive man how do i activate your package? paredit 05:51:20 read it, it's pretty clear 05:51:36 i actually copy pasted the code in my .emacs but no dice 05:52:04 luis: also, it looks like said fasl-writing was quite simple, actually 05:52:21 luis: http://up.update.uu.se/hack/rlpdtm <--- example 05:52:58 i need a patch but from where 05:53:25 -!- ManateeL` [n=user@116.4.150.224] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:54:04 i guess i'll try the stable version :P 05:54:19 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 05:54:34 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:55:03 seejay_ [n=seejay@202.69.200.5] has joined #lisp 05:55:07 Bigshot_: Paredit might be challenging to use if you aren't very comfortable with emacs to begin with. 05:56:00 same thing with stable too what to do? 05:56:26 ahaas: who cares as long as it completes the brackets - gung ho 05:56:44 read emacs manual then 05:56:57 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-183-246.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:56:59 I care, because I don't want you to post 20 follow up questions about how you don't understand how it works. 05:57:08 Bigshot_: the ones shouting "gung ho" are the first to die :) 05:57:14 hehe 05:57:49 ahaas: don't worry man i won't ask - good that you mentioned 06:03:24 Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 06:04:27 ok got it 06:04:56 it works now :D 06:05:06 why don't you guys use paredit? 06:05:37 ahaas: our hopes foiled... 06:06:21 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-183-246.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:06:28 hehe sorry about that man i take that question back ;-) 06:08:28 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:09:17 -!- seejay_ is now known as seejay 06:11:59 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-183-246.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:39 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@203.97.49.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:13:51 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:14:40 -!- ejs [n=eugen@192-241-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:16:02 luis` [n=user@r42.eu] has joined #lisp 06:16:33 ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 06:16:40 -!- luis [n=user@r42.eu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:16:46 -!- luis` is now known as luis 06:17:10 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:18:34 there's no special copy- function for array, right? 06:18:34 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-52-51.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:18:58 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:19:31 no 06:19:56 so I shall use copy-seq to make a copy of an array? 06:20:10 hello lispers 06:20:23 leo2007: no, array is not a sequence 06:20:40 how to make a copy of an array? 06:20:50 you can ADJUST-ARRAY a displaced array 06:21:09 see alexandria:copy-array 06:22:07 papasi [n=papasi@adsl-70-231-143-244.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:32 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has joined #lisp 06:22:57 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 06:23:05 stassats: thanks 06:30:21 evening 06:31:31 -!- sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:32:01 sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 06:36:34 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-15081.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 06:37:14 morning 06:37:16 ejs [n=eugen@129-236-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:48 p_l: where are you located again? 06:39:52 tcr: Scotland, United Kingdom 06:40:13 and moving to England this week 06:40:52 i am trying to install this theme but get this : error: Required feature `color-theme-akk' was not provided (taken from here http://shallowsky.com/dotfiles/.emacs-lisp/color-theme-akk.el) 06:42:08 this is not #emacs 06:42:33 oh i get confused thanks 06:43:36 azanar [n=azanar@dsl231-050-107.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:00 Bigshot_: add a (provide 'color-theme-akk) at the end of that file 06:44:07 Bigshot_: or load it directly, rather than requiring 06:45:18 Bigshot_: If you just want to test it out, open the file in emacs, and press M-x eval-buffer 06:45:26 then M-x color-theme-akk 06:48:37 -!- ejs [n=eugen@129-236-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:49:20 vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 06:50:50 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:51:21 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:56:15 naunsins [i=charles_@120.138.100.168] has joined #lisp 06:57:25 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:58:34 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:59:04 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:59:07 -!- naunsins [i=charles_@120.138.100.168] has left #lisp 06:59:41 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-169-230.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:05 -!- vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:02:23 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-36-179.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:02:40 -!- optikalmouse [n=user@bas1-toronto10-1279555687.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:02:49 good morning 07:05:23 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:05:28 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has quit ["bye"] 07:06:12 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:06:14 plage [n=user@118.68.32.7] has joined #lisp 07:06:20 Good afternoon! 07:06:33 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:06:56 -!- Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060215]"] 07:06:56 Hi everyoneHow do I fix this: 07:07:39 minion: tell lat about lisppaste 07:07:40 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 07:07:43 ave plage 07:07:54 good (misty) morning 07:09:28 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:10:54 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:12:52 lat pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82395 07:13:41 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:13:48 mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 07:14:06 hello 07:14:36 That paste is an error message from clbuild. 07:15:07 vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 07:15:44 If I'm not mistaken, it's not possible to create optional dependencies in plain ASDF, right? 07:15:55 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-2-222.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:17:21 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 07:19:45 vy: use :weak-depends-on. weak deps will be loaded only if found locally 07:21:36 is there a link anywhere that explains how to set up a test-op for a particular system? 07:22:13 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 07:22:24 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:22:59 I'm trying to use clbuild to install McClim, but it fails with the error message listed in the above paste. 07:23:31 lat: the error isn't there... 07:23:32 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:23:40 morning 07:24:10 sykopomp: example: http://repo.or.cz/w/iolib.git?a=blob;f=src/iolib.asd;hb=HEAD 07:24:18 fe[nl]ix: thanks! 07:25:28 fe[nl]ix: is :iolib-tests defined in a separate asdf system?... 07:25:46 sykopomp, the error message is: "unhandled condition in --disable-debugger mode, quitting" 07:26:05 ASau [n=user@host81-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:26:15 sykopomp: there's a separate iolib-tests.asd, but it's not necessary 07:26:27 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 07:26:34 hi nikodemus 07:26:37 lat: that's not the error you're looking for. 07:26:55 the actual errors are elsewhere. 07:28:37 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:29:51 fe[nl]ix, can you answer to a simple question, please ? On hunchentoot site its written that the logger is slow because it opens and closes files and because it uses semaphores. So question is how to create an efficient logger ? Should I use the linux loger command ? 07:30:04 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:31:13 kiuma: you could try logging through syslog command, I guess 07:31:27 kiuma: that's what I would advise 07:31:30 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:32 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-74-211.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:31:57 is syslog aready ported to CL somewhere ? 07:32:03 kiuma: use syslog, then configure your logger to filter those messages to a separate file and to rotate the logs 07:32:17 kiuma: if you are using SBCL, it's in sb-posix:syslog 07:33:03 man 3 syslog for usage info 07:33:09 yes I'm using sbcl, but in the not very probable case that someone want to use it in something like LW ? 07:33:11 -!- neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has left #lisp 07:33:48 sykopomp, I'm just trying to get set up to learn lisp, so how do I get past that error? 07:33:52 I'm asking thins because I'm writing a framework, not an application 07:33:58 *this 07:34:15 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:34:19 kiuma: I'm sure any sensible cl impl. will have interface to syslog, at least on Unix. You can always use CFFI and write your own wrapper 07:35:15 ok thx 07:35:35 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:35:44 lat: paste the actual error. Look for something that says ERROR: in the output. 07:35:52 the part you pasted isn't actually where the error happened. 07:36:10 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 07:36:24 kiuma: on windows, of course, system log will have slightly different interface 07:36:59 though if you link with posix.dll, you should be able to call syslog, though that requires some extra work to pull, I think 07:37:32 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:37:39 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 07:37:48 p_l that's ok. Then I could wrap the hunchentoot logger to my logging interface and use sb-posix:syslog for my applications :) 07:39:19 I mean provide the hunchentoot wrapped logger for the framework. While creating a custom one (based on syslog) for my apps 07:39:29 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:39:32 morning 07:39:34 good 07:39:45 mega1 [n=mega@pool-024bb.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:41:28 ruepelOr [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 07:53:45 hello splittist 07:54:48 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-8-10.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:54:50 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:54:55 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:58:45 thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:49 drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:03:00 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-130-155.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:03:02 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 08:03:06 plage` [n=user@118.68.32.7] has joined #lisp 08:04:34 -!- papasi [n=papasi@adsl-70-231-143-244.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:06:46 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:15 lat pasted "clbuild of mcclim & gsharp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82396 08:11:18 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 08:12:02 sykopomp, I pasted the errors and a few warnings. 08:12:35 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-199.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 08:13:34 lat: one error seems to be that libgtk-x11-2.0 has not been found. 08:15:13 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 08:15:20 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-173-76-163-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:46 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:16:49 seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 08:18:33 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.32.7] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:19:24 -!- drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:20:07 itze [n=itze@77-22-106-191-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:20:31 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-111.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:20:47 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:23:56 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:25:24 QinGW [n=qingwuki@203.86.81.2] has joined #lisp 08:27:41 dys [n=andreas@p5B3146C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:52 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:32:26 younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 08:35:36 -!- plage` [n=user@118.68.32.7] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:35:49 rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 08:37:02 -!- mega1 [n=mega@pool-024bb.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:40:08 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-183-246.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:40:17 hi all 08:40:34 seejay_ [n=seejay@202.69.200.5] has joined #lisp 08:41:18 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 08:41:32 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:41:55 drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-144.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:42:32 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-111.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:43:19 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B3146C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:45:12 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:45:57 dys [n=andreas@p5B3146C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:46 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B3146C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:47:12 dys [n=andreas@p5B3146C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:08 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 08:49:26 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-7-97.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:49:33 sykopomp, apt-get couldn't find package libgtk-x11-2.0.so, so where do I find it? 08:50:23 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 08:51:13 <_3b> ubuntu seems to have it in libgtk2.0-dev 08:52:55 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:54:34 -!- easyE [i=[lg39458@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:56:08 plage [n=user@118.68.32.7] has joined #lisp 08:58:37 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:59:25 -!- QinGW [n=qingwuki@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:04:57 _3b, thanks. I'll try that. 09:05:00 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:07:23 qra [n=qra@221.134.21.34] has joined #lisp 09:08:04 why am i getting "Cannot find source for frame ..." in slime always 09:08:59 while pressing v in sldb? 09:09:29 yes 09:09:49 maybe because it really can't find it? 09:10:15 i have given (declaim (optimize (debug 3)) in the top of the file! 09:10:44 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:10:49 did you load it? 09:11:17 evaluating with C-x-e 09:11:39 well, here is your problem 09:11:47 well then, load the file so your lisp impl knows the source comes from a file :) 09:11:54 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-15081.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:11:58 not only load, but compile it 09:12:00 C-c C-k 09:12:51 sunwukong [n=vukung@210-20-93-83.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:13:45 sykopomp, you were right about that error. Thanks! 09:14:11 sykopomp, but this error remains: 09:15:04 ; compiling (DEFCFUN "pango_layout_set_spacing" ...)unhandled SIMPLE-ERROR in thread #: Error during processing of --eval option "(load \"/home/lat/clbuild/clbuild.lisp\")": error while parsing arguments to DEFMACRO SPACING: bogus sublist :INT to satisfy lambda-list (&REST CLIM-INTERNALS::OPTIONS) 09:17:39 mega1 [n=mega@pool-05aad.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:21:09 hello 09:22:01 Hi attila_lendvai. Nice to see you here. 09:22:35 hello 09:23:09 attila_lendvai: what is the current state of the wui refactoring? 09:24:06 dys` [n=andreas@p5B3164A9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:11 kami-: almost there... :) 09:24:22 is it safe to pull? 09:24:34 (or almost safe :) ? 09:24:49 kami-: but the good news is that it will feature a runnable demo which will be an extensive example 09:25:36 attila_lendvai: this is really good news! 09:25:47 kami-: we created an unstable repo, so pulling the head is safe. the unstable repo will be merged soon (i really hope, because we need to deliver stuff and it's kind of an obstacle currently) 09:25:49 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 09:26:09 *attila_lendvai* will leave soon 09:28:01 attila_lendvai: OK. Thank you. 09:28:49 lichtblau [n=user@77-22-106-191-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:29:19 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:27 Hi there. 09:29:40 I'd like to finally try cl-perec, but need help. 09:29:43 Hi lichtblau. 09:29:50 hello lichtblau indeed 09:29:54 we have questions for you 09:30:11 Is my understanding correct that the dependencies in clbuild are barely good enough to load cl-perec, but not good enough to run its backends? 09:30:18 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B3146C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:30:35 Which dependencies do I have to pull from forks instead of upstream? 09:31:29 Xof> we have questions for you 09:31:38 damn, sorry for copy&paste 09:31:52 Xof: I doubt that I have answers, but please go ahead 09:32:11 well, it was about sb-regpair 09:32:44 jmbr [n=jmbr@143.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 09:34:46 lichtblau: I have a working cl-perec env. I'll check which ones are from where. 09:35:26 I doubt that sb-regpair solves any problem that wouldn't be better solved by the purchase of an AMD64 system. 09:35:33 kami-: That would be cool. 09:35:36 lichtblau: the question from nikodemus was whether anything in regpair actually pessimizes anything (i.e. why a contrib?) 09:36:05 -!- dys` is now known as dys 09:36:41 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 09:37:46 well, it's either the changed pack.lisp from the contrib or the register renumbering, and neither is a convincing solution. 09:38:41 kami- pasted "cl-perec dependencies" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82404 09:38:56 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:39:26 lichtblau: these are the direct ones. I can look up the transitive ones if you get stuck somewhere. I use cl-perec with postgres, btw. 09:40:25 kami-: The backend would have been my next question. The issues I had were related to some postgres/local-time incompatibility, or at least that was my impression. (I'm trying to reproduce the exact error message right now.) 09:40:57 lichtblau: I store timestamps and have had no problems, up to now. 09:43:24 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-178-55.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:43:41 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:45:05 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 09:45:47 lichtblau: i need to leave not for a while but levy came online, ask him if you are stuck. things should work fine, the only non-official dependency for perec that comes to my mind now is metacopy, you need to use the cl-dwim branch... 09:45:53 s/not/now/ 09:47:30 thanks, will do 09:48:41 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 09:48:46 Did I mention that I'm completely in awe with Hemlock? 09:49:16 what is your favorite part? 09:50:08 Perhaps it's just that I started with low expectations. 09:50:10 It's the "written in Common Lisp" part that makes it more exciting for me that (GNU) Emacs. 09:50:32 How about Climacs? 09:51:27 All the time I'm discovering yet another feature that I didn't know was there and that "just works". 09:51:31 Still lots of stuff that used to work in CMUCL hemlock and doesn't yet work in portable hemlock, but nothing that would be hard to overcome. 09:54:07 http://www.lichteblau.com/tmp/qhemlock2.png 09:55:57 -!- seejay_ [n=seejay@202.69.200.5] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:58:20 so it's not actually a pile of decrepit bit-rotted junk? 09:59:32 liii [n=jens@c83-254-76-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:01:01 ooh, pretty 10:01:06 hefner: Not IMHO, no. Gilbert and other regulars of this channel did the hard work and made most of it portable. The underlying ideas might be old fashioned, but are basically sound. 10:02:51 And Clozure's Cocoa IDE is based on Hemlock, so I'm sure they'll be producing good code and ideas to steal, too. 10:04:04 -!- liii [n=jens@c83-254-76-227.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 10:05:22 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:05:56 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 10:06:53 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 10:07:08 lat annotated #82396 "./clbuild dumpcore mcclim" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82396#1 10:09:28 a friend of mine was having some terrible trouble making clbuild work the other day, but it turned out that his system's bash was insane (apparently in posix compatibility mode somehow) 10:09:48 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:10:44 I'm probably just missing context, but that stacktrace isn't showing the frames needed to determine what on earth in mcclim or gsharp could be using FFI code there. (freetype? gtkairo? ...?) 10:10:52 lat: how about loading stuff in slime rather than through dumpcore? 10:12:12 -!- aunwork [n=aunwork@mail.ionicsoft.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:12:25 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A219E.versanet.de] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.94.1"] 10:12:29 hefner, well, I hope this is an easy fix as I'm just learning lisp. 10:13:58 seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 10:14:16 aunwork [n=aunwork@mail.ionicsoft.com] has joined #lisp 10:14:23 lichtblau, was ./clbuild loading or compiling? 10:14:54 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 10:15:04 compiling mcclim, that is. 10:15:55 I wasn't referring to a compile/load distinction. 10:16:15 My recommendation is just to use "clbuild slime" rather than "clbuild dumpcore" to debug this problem, because then you'll get a real debugger. 10:17:15 lichtblau, ok. I'll try that. 10:18:15 boyscare1 [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:13 lat annotated #82396 "./clbuild slime" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82396#2 10:21:45 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 10:21:47 lichtblau, there it is. 10:22:22 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6DA86.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:49 I have no idea what you're doing there. But /home/lat/sbcl-1.0.15-x86-linux/slime/contrib/slime-fancy.el doesn't look like a file installed using clbuild. 10:23:36 bobf_ [n=bob@host86-146-210-30.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:24:51 you could try ./clbuild slime -q 10:24:58 "do not read my ~/.emacs at all" 10:26:51 lichtblau, I typed "./clbuild slime" from the bash shell, and that caused emacs to load with the contents of that paste. 10:27:29 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6DA86.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 10:29:06 Xof, that loaded emacs and slime with no error message. 10:31:20 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 10:32:27 *hefner* wonders what CCL users do for posix things. Use the FFI directly? 10:33:17 Xof, did that fix the problem? 10:33:55 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:33:55 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:40:11 When I try to run the demo, I get "The variable GCONNECTFLAGS is unbound." So, perhaps the error in mcclim is still there. 10:41:05 7: ((LAMBDA (SB-IMPL::E)) #)[:EXTERNAL] 10:41:38 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:09 hefner: CCL FFI seems quite simple 10:42:43 -!- bob_f [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:43:00 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@143.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:43:08 *hefner* runs the listener, wonders why the menus are sluggish, is reminded of old cmucl (but there, I assumed it was the fault of cmucl's farcical multiprocessing) 10:44:05 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:46 bob_f [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 10:46:50 _bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 10:48:27 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:50:19 "seems", 10:50:37 and then the enter key jumps under my pinky. 10:51:16 *hefner* is spoiled by sb-posix 10:51:34 jmbr [n=jmbr@143.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:51:51 even if it can be just inefficient enough to get on my nerves. 10:56:37 lat: you need to be proactive in giving us the information needed to debug your problem, otherwise we can't and won't help you. 10:56:57 Just quoting the same error line without more information doesn't add anything to what you're already told us. 10:59:56 lat annotated #82396 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82396#3 11:00:10 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:01:55 okay, so you're not running vanilla mcclim, you've actually changed clbuild.conf to enable gtkairo and forgot to mention that? 11:03:16 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-4-253.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:03:37 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:44 confounds [n=jackalop@99.226.232.111] has joined #lisp 11:04:49 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.123.72] has joined #lisp 11:05:41 seejay_ [n=seejay@202.69.200.5] has joined #lisp 11:05:44 lichtblau, I just tried to follow the directions on the installation page. Yes, I did enable gtkairo. 11:05:52 CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.100.237] has joined #lisp 11:10:48 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-82-202.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:12:33 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C792.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:07 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-36-179.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["leaving"] 11:13:31 okay. gtkairo isn't be maintained, which rules out new bugs in gtkairo. so it's an incompatibility with either the mcclim frontend's version, cffi's version, or GTK+'s version. You could try downgrading mcclim and cffi to a version from two years ago or so. 11:13:42 Alternatively, forget about gtkairo and use clim-clx. 11:15:43 lichtblau, if I disable gtkairo will automatically enable clim-clx? 11:16:20 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:16:37 will that 11:16:56 wbraun [n=wolfgang@vpn0560.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has joined #lisp 11:17:24 kami-: do I need the dwim fork of slime? 11:17:55 cracki [n=cracki@46-029.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:23:05 -!- _bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit ["leaving"] 11:24:49 lichtblau, never mind. I see I must enable clx in clbuild.conf. Many thanks for your help! 11:26:14 _bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 11:26:59 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-4-253.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:28:23 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:33:14 -!- seejay_ [n=seejay@202.69.200.5] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:34:38 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:40:36 lichteblau pasted "cl-perec and local-time" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82414 11:40:55 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:41:04 Which cl-perec expert can tell what I got wrong now? 11:42:41 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:45:42 okay, commenting out #+#.(local-time::package-with-symbol? "SB-UNIX" "UNIX-GETTIMEOFDAY") helps 11:46:38 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-147-172.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:46:40 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:50:15 Is cl-lambda-gtk still being mantained? Last modifications seem to come from about 4 years back. Or shall one use cl-gtk2 (which seems somewhat unfinished yet)? 11:51:01 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:51:07 Haven't touched either, just pondering which one to learn (assuming I want gtk2 for other reasons). 11:51:14 antoszka: clg appears to work. cells-gtk3 compiles but examples fail in hard-to-debug way 11:53:04 thx. 11:53:57 jonathon [n=user@208.89.21.37] has joined #lisp 11:55:42 I have a question about rebinding special variables in lexical context. Why does returning a lambda from inside such a form not produce a closure? 11:55:55 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:56:38 you mean, "why can't I use special variables like lexical variables?" ? 11:57:12 Ok, that sounds about right. 11:57:25 a lambda form always produces a closure, it's just that evaluating special variables doesn't look up their value in any lexical environment 11:57:47 that's what makes them "special" 11:58:24 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-178-55.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 11:58:37 But calling a function that uses them *does* use the rebound value, correct? 11:59:32 if you rebind a special variable and call any function, that function will see your value 11:59:39 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-82-202.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 11:59:44 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-153-133.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 12:00:19 -!- _bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:19 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:20 -!- Raiford_ [n=rai@234.157-62-69.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:20 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:20 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:20 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:20 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:20 -!- sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.utwente.nl] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:20 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:20 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:20 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.205.13] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:20 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:20 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-106.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:00:20 But if I rebind it and return a closure, the lambda code will still seee the dynamic environment, correct? 12:00:42 _bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 12:00:42 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 12:00:42 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.205.13] has joined #lisp 12:00:42 Raiford_ [n=rai@234.157-62-69.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:42 Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:00:42 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:42 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 12:00:42 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 12:00:42 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 12:00:42 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 12:00:42 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 12:00:57 So specials are not included in the environment returned around a closure, correct? 12:01:12 jonathon: if I understand your question correctly, yes - but you can just write some sample code and see if it fulfils your expectations 12:04:18 rudi: are you east or west at the moment? (yes, I know it's all relative) 12:04:26 I'm near gmt 12:04:34 Yes, I've been experimenting, but I don't like using those results to formulate my understanding of the language. :) Especially if it holds me back from advancing or truly understanding a concept. 12:04:39 But I'll try it, thanks. 12:04:39 im in ur timezone finishun my phd 12:04:44 heh 12:05:06 jonathon: then read the standard - it's readable, contrary to most people's expectations ;) 12:05:18 Good idea, thanks. :) 12:05:34 -!- jonathon [n=user@208.89.21.37] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:10:53 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 12:13:19 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:13:44 ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:13:53 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:13:53 -!- Raiford_ [n=rai@234.157-62-69.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:13:53 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:13:53 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:13:53 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:13:53 -!- sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.utwente.nl] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:13:53 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:13:53 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:13:53 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.205.13] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:13:53 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:13:53 -!- _bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:14:09 _bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 12:14:09 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 12:14:09 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.205.13] has joined #lisp 12:14:09 Raiford_ [n=rai@234.157-62-69.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:09 Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:14:09 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:09 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 12:14:09 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 12:14:09 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 12:14:09 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 12:14:09 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 12:14:52 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:24:11 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:26:45 Blkt [n=Blkt@160.80.124.34] has joined #lisp 12:30:18 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:32:05 kami-: success. LOAD-OP of cl-perec-test.postgresql works. How can I actually run the tests? 12:32:16 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:32:29 TEST-OP fails with "The function TEST is undefined", is that worth investigating or is TEST-OP the wrong approach anyway? 12:32:31 lichtblau: see README 12:32:55 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:34:14 lichtblau: err, the main thing is missing from it: (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :cl-perec-test.postgresql) 12:38:48 lichtblau: I was trying to install sb-regpair from http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/lichteblau.git the other day and it failed. Do you know if it can be installed separately? 12:47:37 how do you express the NUL character (0x00) ? 12:47:58 #\Nul 12:48:03 thanks :) 12:48:09 you're welcome 12:48:41 check the output of (code-char 0) 12:49:24 leo2007: don't know. http://www.lichteblau.com/git/?p=cloakbuild.git;a=tree;f=sb-regpair;h=c007fa01a24d712b5fe3c94805f196908dcfa243;hb=HEAD has another copy, but it's probably identical 12:51:08 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [] 12:51:12 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:52 *attila_lendvai* pushed a perec README change 12:51:55 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 12:54:28 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:54:51 okay, thanks. 12:54:54 Somehow the (setf *database* ...) thing from cl-perec-test.postgres.asd didn't get run for me. When evaluating it manually, it turns out that cl-postgres hasn't been loaded yet. 12:54:56 So I'm back to downloading for now. 12:55:51 seejay_ [n=seejay@202.69.200.5] has joined #lisp 12:56:14 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:56:28 -!- seejay_ [n=seejay@202.69.200.5] has quit [Client Quit] 12:56:55 lichtblau: sb-regpair.diff, should that file be used? 12:57:58 lichtblau: (asdf:operate 'asdf:test-op :cl-perec-test.postgresql) should load all that is needed and start the test suite that emits lots of dots to stdout 12:58:47 lichtblau: getting this error, SB-VM::SIGNED-BYTE-64 is not a defined primitive type. 13:01:46 -!- qra [n=qra@221.134.21.34] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:03:43 I'm profiling a program in SBCL and it points out that a function which just issues a simple (make-array size :element-type (array-element-type buffer) :displaced-to buffer :displaced-index-offset pos) call cons'es 742 (bytes?) per call, is that something expected? Shouldn't it be smaller? 13:03:47 leo2007: did you apply sb-regpair.diff? 13:04:06 not yet, let me do that 13:04:07 bob_f_ [n=bob@pangloss.vm.bytemark.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:04:11 -!- bob_f_ [n=bob@pangloss.vm.bytemark.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 13:04:14 -!- bob_f [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Client Quit] 13:04:17 bob_f [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 13:04:28 I had forgotten about it myself, but I see it in my build script. 13:04:35 nikodemus: I forgot to mention that your fix solved the profiling threads related problem. Thanks so much. 13:05:23 -!- _bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit ["leaving"] 13:06:13 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 13:06:39 lichtblau: I think the patch solves the problem 13:06:49 -!- ruepelOr [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:07:38 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:07:45 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 13:08:36 Is the indentation style provided by slime-indentation better than the default? 13:08:41 seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 13:08:49 I am seeing this: STYLE-WARNING: redefining SYMBOL-INDENTATION in DEFUN 13:09:10 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:10:21 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 13:13:52 Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 13:15:54 -!- wbraun [n=wolfgang@vpn0560.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:18:39 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 13:21:01 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@131.173.18.85] has joined #lisp 13:21:02 attila_lendvai: thanks, fantastic. Just had to add :initarg and :accessor to the example. 13:21:30 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:22:08 Looking at the table and column names, it shouldn't be too difficult to use an existing table and mung it into looking as if it was generated by perec, right? 13:22:38 elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:22:40 (or conversely, teach perec to use slightly different column names, specified explicitly) 13:22:54 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 13:23:24 elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:23:45 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 13:24:30 lichtblau: well, tailoring an existing table to what perec wants is not too hard, but perec was not trained to work with a different schema than it wants. it's not too hard to add support for it, but it's not on our TODO... 13:26:09 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:32 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 13:26:40 i'd define a class, export the schema, shut down perec, drop the table and rename/alter the existing table according to the one perec created. this is relatively painless, other options are more headache... 13:27:04 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:57 well, we'd be porting an entire codebase from mostly-handwritten stuff to perec, while also porting it from mysql to oracle, so severe headaches would be unavoidable in any case. 13:29:24 lichtblau: hrm, keep in mind that the oracle backend for perec was never fully used in production... if you have and option to use postgres over oracle then i strongly suggest it (not only because of perec, administrating postgres is much less pain) 13:29:47 hmm, can I ask you a couple of questions over direct privmsg? 13:30:17 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:04 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:33:14 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 13:33:30 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-173-76-163-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 13:34:01 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-7-97.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 13:35:42 -!- rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has quit ["Client exciting"] 13:36:33 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:36:44 kami- [n=user@193.218.18.18] has joined #lisp 13:40:16 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:34 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:41:43 kami- [n=user@193.218.18.18] has joined #lisp 13:42:11 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@99.226.232.111] has left #lisp 13:43:27 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.123.72] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:46:34 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:46:44 kami- [n=user@193.218.18.18] has joined #lisp 13:51:34 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:51:44 kami- [n=user@193.218.18.18] has joined #lisp 13:55:08 -!- Blkt [n=Blkt@160.80.124.34] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:56:10 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:56:35 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:56:42 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 13:56:45 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 13:57:58 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Client Quit] 13:58:04 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:58:14 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 13:59:49 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 14:00:27 morning 14:00:39 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has quit ["leaving"] 14:00:59 brown [n=user@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 14:01:27 -!- brown is now known as Guest74049 14:01:36 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:01:46 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 14:02:28 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:03:30 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:03:44 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 14:04:05 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:04:27 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:06:36 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:06:46 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 14:08:55 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:09:09 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 14:11:35 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:11:45 kami- [n=user@193.218.18.18] has joined #lisp 14:14:17 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@131.173.18.85] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:14:21 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:14:34 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 14:15:27 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:17:12 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Client Quit] 14:19:05 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 14:19:36 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:58 the argument hints in the echo area, should that have fontlock? I am watching the redshank screencast and it has that there. 14:20:09 lichtblau: I had a clbuild question for you... is there a(n easy) way to replace the usage of CVS with the appropriate git cvsimport commands? 14:20:56 Howdy, does anyone know of a "standard" library that helps in marking things obsolete (throws warnings of type obsolete at run and compile time for example)? Thanks in advance 14:21:36 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:21:46 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 14:21:56 denios [n=kessler@router1.itwm.fhg.de] has joined #lisp 14:23:18 UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:24 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 14:24:44 looks like Metabang.Utilities has a make-obsolete macro 14:29:44 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 14:30:20 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-180-164.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 14:30:46 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 14:31:39 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:31:49 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 14:32:05 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@210-20-93-83.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:35:25 slyrus: clever idea 14:36:01 My vague recollection is that cvsimport is extremely slow unless done on a local repository, but YMMV. 14:36:08 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 14:36:28 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 14:36:35 Most of the CVS stuff in clbuild is from c-l.net though, so it'd be easy to guess the directory name to fetch the entire repository using rsync. 14:36:40 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:36:43 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.123.72] has joined #lisp 14:36:51 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 14:37:07 merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has joined #lisp 14:37:12 Or you could ask antifuchs to set us his mirroring script for those projects. 14:37:33 speaking of which, is c-l.net cvs dead today, or just mind-bogglingly slow? 14:38:14 cmm: your internets are slow 14:38:15 dtulig [n=user@dyn-bway-129-215.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 14:38:30 it's public already: http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/vcs-gateway.git 14:39:23 slyrus: edit clbuild script 14:39:40 I did that to add proxy to CVS without playing with sed 14:40:35 -!- boyscare1 is now known as boyscared 14:40:47 antifuchs: I'm dumb. how do I pull a fresh slime from that shiny thing? 14:41:01 oh - you should use the slime repo, of course (: 14:41:09 http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/slime.git 14:41:32 gracias! 14:41:41 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:41:45 yw (: 14:41:51 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 14:44:22 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:44:26 antifuchs: git clone doesn't like that url at all, for some reason 14:44:31 many lisp files has a "Package: well-rng-1024" like in the first line, but my emacs does not recognise that 'package' variable? Any idea where it is from? 14:44:41 ah, that's the gitweb url 14:44:48 use git://sbcl.boinkor.net/slime.git to clone 14:44:54 leo2007: the distant past 14:45:09 oh. wow, Xach. good to see you back here (: 14:45:12 leo2007: i don't think it's very common to do that these days 14:45:16 antifuchs: cool, sorry about the idiotic questions... 14:45:21 leo2007: only old people use that now. 14:45:21 cmm: don't worry 14:45:40 and clim. Perhaps this is what luis meant. 14:45:49 s/clim/climacs/ 14:46:11 or incurable hemlock users 14:46:23 leo2007: really old people use Base: 10 too 14:46:42 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:46:52 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 14:46:57 lichtblau: does Hemlock have Tags Multiple Query Replace From File? 14:47:02 (e.g., Edi Weitz) 14:47:39 luis: oh yea? I used base 6 because they hadn't invented the number 7 yet 14:47:43 ELI users also get tripped up by that, because ELI doesn't _need_ that line, but if it's there, it uses it. All over the place people have Package: lines that are incorrect, and didn't notice themselves. 14:49:18 splittist: it has "Group Query Replace", but I'm not certain what a file group actually is 14:49:28 Climacs supports both Package and Base! 14:49:36 Killer features. 14:49:48 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:50:20 splittist: and, if I may ask, what exactly does "Tags Multiple Query Replace From File" do? 14:51:19 -!- cracki [n=cracki@46-029.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 14:51:22 my new hobby: grab 10 random words out of a dictionary, capitalize them, and claim that the lispm had them as a command. 14:51:41 lichtblau: and hit jackpot? ;P 14:51:42 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:51:51 lichtblau: I may have the name slightly wrong, but the Tags part is something like Group - a way to have the command run across a set of files or buffers. 14:51:52 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 14:52:21 I'm a huge fan of dired-do-query-replace-regexp in GNU emacs. 14:52:40 go note-output-record-child-changed 14:52:40 Next thing to port once hemlock's Dired has been freed from its CMUCL-specific prison. 14:52:54 lichtblau: the From File part allows you to set up the query and replace strings (or regexes) in a buffer rather than having to specify them on the command line. 14:53:36 dalton [n=user7994@189-19-121-109.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 14:53:54 lichtblau: Zmacs (and Climacs) allow you to swap 'foo' and 'bar' without having to do a temp renaming (or rotate 'foo', 'bar' and 'baz' etc) 14:54:04 lichtblau: which is I think the Multiple part. 14:54:13 splittist: sounds useful 14:54:25 SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@122.162.123.72] has joined #lisp 14:54:29 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:54:48 Athas: please excuse the annoying legal question, but is my understand correct that climacs and dependencies are LGPL without lisp preamble? And if so, is that intentional? 14:54:56 *understanding 14:55:03 lichtblau: there's an old KMP post on c.l.l. about how he used that alot when porting from Zlisp to CL. 14:55:37 lichtblau: don't know, ask Robert Strandh. As far as I'm concerned, my contributions can be relicensed under the most permissive license available. 14:56:01 (:file "black-scholes")) 14:56:18 sorry for that 14:56:18 *p_l* straps MIT license on his code to avoid legal headaches 14:56:20 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:56:22 I think the meaning of the GPL-derivatives is very unclear in the context of Lisp. 14:56:27 So I prefer not to use them. 14:56:29 thank you for the note 14:56:43 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:56:53 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 14:56:56 jroes [n=jroes@rube.serapio.org] has joined #lisp 14:57:54 well, GPL's meaning is clear enough and same as always, more or less 14:58:00 Athas: I guess not only in lisp. I suspect Erlang apps would have the same problem 14:58:01 bit lgpl is FAR more dubious 14:58:15 leo2007: black-scholes, eh? you looking at hedging strategies? 14:58:15 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@89-138-180-164.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 14:58:38 actually, LGPL is unpleasantly fuzzy for just about anything other than C and friends 14:58:47 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-180-164.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:59:46 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:59:54 well, wasn't it written partially for libc? 14:59:55 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-153-133.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:00:10 I'm reading the Wikipedia article on continuations. the "continuation sandwich" description is misleading me a little bit I think. if continuations don't save any program data, only the execution context, then why is the sandwich on the counter? is the sandwich object in global scope? 15:00:33 the primary problem with lgpl is that it's unclear how it interacts with generic functions, yeah? 15:00:38 Well, it's in the lexical scope of the continuation. 15:00:49 jroes: try asking #scheme. I believe they have more experience with bad continuations similes. 15:00:49 It has dynamic ("global") extent, though. 15:00:53 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.18] has joined #lisp 15:01:03 Fade: I'd say it's unclear how it interacts with "image" 15:01:26 hello 15:01:34 hey, fe[nl]ix 15:01:37 Yeah, a Lisp library/image is much more integrated than a C executable or shared object file. 15:01:43 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:01:46 hi Fade 15:01:53 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 15:02:05 For example, it's (but IANAL) possible to put LGPL code into ECL-compiled image without problems, but that's only because it uses partial images 15:02:50 so you can put LGPLed code into separate image file thus satisfying the "relink" etc. clauses of LGPL 15:02:51 <_3b> probably hard to meet the terms of lgpl for code that uses lgpl macros without providing source too 15:03:26 _3b: Actually it shouldn't be that hard, IMHO 15:03:28 <_3b> (or inline function for that matter i suppose) 15:03:58 <_3b> p_l: could be, might be misremembering, i avoid (l)gpl stuff when possible :) 15:03:59 output of macro isn't necessarily under the same copyright or license 15:04:14 just like output from GCC isn't under GPL 15:04:14 -!- bob_f [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has left #lisp 15:04:54 LGPL tends to center on dynamic linking, which doesn't necessarily make great sense from a lisp perspective 15:05:04 <_3b> right, but wouldn't that have to be specified explicitly? especially for stuff like 'with-foo' where all the user specifies is some symbol names 15:05:16 of course, interpretations vary, which doesn't help 15:05:48 (note that the clisp FAQ implies that if you use bits of clisp which are not in the standard, FFI and so on, you may have to license your code as GPL) 15:06:15 *kpreid* 's response to that is: "fine, I don't support clisp" 15:06:20 classpath-style exception + GPL seems like a sane alternative to LGPL 15:06:24 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 15:06:43 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:06:45 Athas: thanks. I'll ask beach when I see him online. 15:06:53 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 15:06:56 rtoym: there? 15:07:03 (declaim (ext:maybe-inline well-rng-512a)) 15:07:11 what is ext:maybe-inline ? 15:07:13 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:07:31 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 15:07:38 *rsynnott* wonders what the implications of using CFFI on clisp are 15:07:41 Blkt [n=Blkt@160.80.124.34] has joined #lisp 15:07:47 lichtblau: my understanding of the intent of the mcclim etc. licence is "something that looks like a change to our stuff, you give; something that's your stuff, you do what you like with" 15:07:50 equivalent to sb-ext:maybe-inline. Marks the function as available for inlining, but does not inline it by default. 15:08:15 Xof: that's probably their intent, but if they've used a standard LGPL license, that may not be what they're actually saying 15:08:24 (in this stuff, intent doesn't matter that much) 15:08:25 -!- jroes [n=jroes@rube.serapio.org] has left #lisp 15:08:42 and IIRC makes it inlined only once per callee, not once per call-site 15:08:44 actually, intent does matter 15:08:55 btw, is clisp under GPLv2 or "v2 or newer" ? 15:09:01 -!- merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has quit [] 15:09:08 pkhuong: is there a package to make ext:may-inline more portable 15:09:31 which of the fierce lawyers at McClim, Climacs & Co are going to send nasty letters? 15:09:34 as our resident lawyer will say, "what do you fear"? 15:09:46 (our resident lawyer will also say "in legal advice, you get what you pay for") 15:10:05 in practice, of course, yep, it's unlikely that you'd get in trouble for using mcclim in your code without releasing the code 15:10:06 hi splittist 15:10:35 lichtblau: that license sounds a little like CMU 15:10:36 (demacro declaim-maybe-inline (&rest names) `(declaim (#+cmu ext:maybe-inline #+sbcl sb-ext:maybe-inline #-(or sbcl cmu) inline ,@names)) ; or similar 15:10:41 Yo Xof. Are you on (grant writing, course composing, admin-heavy) hols? 15:10:45 if I use sb-ext:maybe-lisp it won't be compilable other than sbcl, right? 15:11:00 splittist: something like that 15:11:02 not unless there is a FAKE-SBCL library :) 15:11:19 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-27.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:11:21 grant writing and admin-heavy, definitely; I'm mostly done with course composing 15:11:22 leo2007: time to learn about #+ and #- 15:11:26 not quite entirely, but mostly 15:11:33 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:11:42 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:11:45 there might even be some time for Actual Research somewhere 15:11:52 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 15:11:54 How's the hotel lawyering business? 15:12:25 Xof: takes up far too much of my scant non-family time, I'm afraid. But it's certainly interesting. 15:13:17 thanks 15:13:20 (as is the family time, of course (: ) 15:13:22 I'll look at it 15:14:18 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:16:13 where to learn about those #- #+ 15:16:14 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@89-138-180-164.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:16:39 clhs #+ 15:16:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 15:16:56 Kirklander [n=Kirkland@216.93.247.56] has joined #lisp 15:20:08 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.18] has quit ["Valete!"] 15:20:15 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:20:55 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:21:43 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:21:53 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 15:23:14 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:25:00 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:26:11 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 15:26:18 emacs seems to mess up with those #+- 15:26:34 for example 15:26:37 #+cmu (declaim (ext:maybe-inline well-rng-44497)))) 15:26:37 #+sbcl (declaim (sb-ext:maybe-inline well-rng-44497)))) 15:26:37 #-(or sbcl cmu) (declaim (inline well-rng-44497))))) 15:26:57 let me paste a picture instead 15:27:15 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.18] has joined #lisp 15:27:23 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:27:32 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 15:27:43 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-180-164.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:27:53 http://imagebin.org/53546 15:28:19 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 15:28:23 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:28:26 leo2007: looks right to me. 15:28:38 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:28:54 ahh, how nice of slime to recognise that 15:28:57 hi luis :) 15:29:14 I was still thinking in the old emacs style font locking 15:29:40 hey fe[nl]ix 15:29:40 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:31:06 leo2007: you should use another image paste, this one doesn't display anything in w3m... 15:31:08 Now that I look at it, Maclisp looks really similar to CL... 15:31:52 matimago: is it the website or the image format? 15:32:13 The website. I see the image in Firefox, not in w3m. (I see other images in w3m). 15:32:36 feel free to recommend another one ;) 15:32:48 leo2007: good question! :-) 15:33:01 If I had time I'd add image pastes to lisp.paste.org... 15:33:21 paste.lisp.org I mean. 15:33:34 salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has joined #lisp 15:33:36 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.100.237] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:33:40 matimago: that would be really nice 15:33:44 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 15:33:44 -!- Blkt [n=Blkt@160.80.124.34] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:34:33 *splittist* was thinking of a url 'shortening' scheme that concatenated symbol names from the COMMON-LISP package. 15:34:36 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 15:35:17 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:35:19 http://lsp.lt/MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND_LEAST-SIGNIFICANT... give up 15:36:06 splittist: you may also (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :upcase) for the url... 15:36:22 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:32 slime's font locking is really superior 15:36:51 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:00 At first, slime wasn't too good with clisp. I believe nowadays it's ok, but last time I tried it it crashed on me. So I'm still using inferior-lisp with ad-hoc emacs commands. Should I try again? 15:38:35 *leo2007* has only used sbcl 15:38:52 i don't use it with clisp, but it's nice with sbcl and ccl 15:39:29 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 15:39:46 Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 15:40:13 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:40:34 -!- antoni [n=user@28.pool85-53-36.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:40:52 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 15:41:04 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-192-219.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:44 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 15:42:57 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslgg171.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:42:59 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 15:44:32 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:46:23 Blkt [n=Blkt@160.80.124.34] has joined #lisp 15:46:34 fe[nl]ix: lololol 15:47:24 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:47:43 cornucopic [n=r00t@115.184.141.243] has joined #lisp 15:47:51 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 15:48:53 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:49:23 prxq [n=mommer@78.52.127.72] has joined #lisp 15:49:32 Hi 15:50:02 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:50:44 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-180-164.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:51:45 TDT [i=dthole@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 15:54:21 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has left #lisp 15:57:20 I have a problem with bordeaux-threads 15:57:33 bt:make-lock is returning a lock, but bt:make-recursive-lock returns (nil) 15:57:50 would this have to do with me running ACL 8.1 on Linux? (ie no native threads) 15:59:01 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:00:24 elliotstern [n=chatzill@129.21.83.157] has joined #lisp 16:00:26 wow. CL:OR has a gotcha with multiple values I've never seen before 16:00:40 malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:00:46 Any ideas about this threading issue? 16:01:08 *dlowe* doesn't use Allegro. Sorry 16:01:33 do you think it could be caused by that? 16:01:50 Adlai: i'd suggest having a look at the implementation of make-recursive-lock... it's a M-. away after all. 16:02:11 asking your lisp will probably get you better results than asking #lisp :) 16:02:38 hm 16:02:44 the definition IS (list nil) 16:02:52 which makes me think 16:03:03 that maybe it's supposed to be that??? 16:03:19 doesn't make much sense though. 16:03:22 hi, does anyone know if using sb-sprof with a new(ish) version of SBCL is safe on OS X? I was looking up how to use shark-profile, which is supposedly necessary because there is a problem with profiling floating point code on os x. that was written in 2005 though, and a quick check with profiling a floating point version of factorial indicates it *seems* to work. 16:03:26 Adlai: it's an interface. As long as you can always acquire a recursive lock, what's the problem? 16:03:58 any advice on whether this is fixed now (i have a pretty urgent need to profile some floating point numerical computations) or whether there is a better way to profile sbcl on OS X? 16:04:04 what if another process has the lock at the moment? 16:04:09 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.18] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:04:21 it seems as though acquire-recursive-lock does nothing at all. 16:04:26 Adlai: another *process*? 16:04:28 Adlai: well ... at some point a developer has gone and written that code, so i'm willing to bet that's what the developer intended. Perhaps ACL doesn't implement recursive locks, or doesn't need them due to userspace threading, etc etc. 16:05:06 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:06:07 drewc: iiuc, ACL's green threading only ever has a single lisp thread. I'm not sure when it supports concurrency, but it might be only in a very restricted set of situations. 16:06:07 hm, well, I'll see how this turns out... 16:06:50 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-192-219.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:07:10 actually 16:07:11 wait 16:07:20 i found the right place to look... 16:07:27 M-. took me to default-implementation.lisp 16:07:39 the same directory also has allegro.lisp 16:08:05 the recursive lock is treated a bit differently than the normal one, which means that there is some concept of a recursive lock in ACL. 16:08:11 so I think this'll work. 16:08:22 thx for pointing out M-., though. 16:08:54 gcv [n=gcv@67.97.51.195] has joined #lisp 16:08:57 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 16:09:43 -!- gcv [n=gcv@67.97.51.195] has quit [Client Quit] 16:10:43 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:11:29 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:08 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:12:28 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 16:12:32 rread [n=rread@192.18.41.196] has joined #lisp 16:12:53 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:13:14 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:16 illumina` [n=user@164.106.249.254] has joined #lisp 16:18:45 -!- KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-5-100.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:18:49 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-1-111.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:46 rjack [n=rjack@93-42-25-237.ip84.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:21:00 -!- rjack [n=rjack@93-42-25-237.ip84.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 16:26:58 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@129.21.83.157] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:27:19 Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:27:59 does anyone here use "climacs"? 16:28:18 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslgg171.osnanet.de] has quit ["http://github.com/bakkdoor/rswing/"] 16:28:23 -!- thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:28:48 Bigshot_: I used to, sometimes. 16:28:56 is it good? 16:29:01 compared to emacs? 16:29:37 Bigshot_: unfortunately not near yet, at least taking my last try into account. It improves, though 16:31:19 it says: Ensure that asdf can find the .asd files for these projects.(what's the meaning of it?) also (i've got flexichain folder, clx and mcclim) but i don't see any climacs.asd where is it? 16:31:31 Athas: what do we need to do to persuade you to going back to regular climacs usage and hacking? :) 16:31:37 masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has joined #lisp 16:33:33 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-168-132-106.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:44 *p_l* would switch to climacs completely if it supported all his elisp stuff. Then it would be time to add multithreading and FSF Emacs would be dead :> 16:35:56 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 16:36:21 p_l: can i make use of syntax.lisp file in emacs? 16:36:45 Bigshot_: what syntax.lisp? 16:36:48 or does it have to be with extension .el? 16:37:01 http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/climacs/climacs-lisp-syntax.lisp?rev=1.17&root=climacs&view=markup 16:37:18 i want to make of this file in emacs is it possible? 16:37:43 use* of 16:37:59 nope. You'd have to rewrite it in Emacs Lisp 16:39:59 Lectus [n=Lectus@189.105.42.131] has joined #lisp 16:40:31 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:38 slyrus: add a baroque type system! I've developed an interest in the mathematics behind such things. 16:40:52 Oh, and literate programming, which I'm having a hard time combining with the things I like in Lisp. 16:41:20 -!- ASau [n=user@host81-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 16:42:10 ok what's the meaning of it again i found climacs.asd Ensure that asdf can find the .asd files for these projects. 16:42:17 Athas: You might want to look at axiom 16:42:23 -!- Blkt [n=Blkt@160.80.124.34] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:42:34 younder: I have, it seems to remove most of the things I like in Lisp. 16:42:44 how can i make this "asdf" find the ".asd" files? 16:42:54 oh? what exactly? 16:43:13 Bigshot_: consult asdf:*central-registry*. either symlink the asd files into one of those directories, or add the directories where the asd files *are* into that list variable 16:43:25 I was thinking mostly about the source. Litterate Lisp.. 16:44:04 I like the topological foundation of it's types. 16:44:41 -!- lichtblau [n=user@77-22-106-191-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 16:44:58 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-169-230.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:45:03 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:45:14 Athas: it would seem to be that climacs could be an interesting substrate for literate programming. I've been wanting an editor that can handle multiple modes within the same file for doing things like lisp, R, and written english all in the same file. 16:45:16 kpreid: where is this asdf central registry? 16:45:25 Bigshot_: that is the name of it 16:45:34 Athas: same here (fsvo baroque). It's a bit funny that, simultaneously, a phd student I know who's been into types and logic for a while is now developing an interest in the low level aspects of compilation. 16:45:38 (of course you have to have loaded asdf first) 16:45:44 try (require :asdf) 16:45:52 in emacs? 16:46:01 or in clisp compiler 16:46:04 no, in the lisp you want to run climacs in 16:47:48 joachifm [n=joachim@ti132110a340-3137.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 16:54:50 <_3b> slyrus: have you tried multi-mode.el? it seems more or less useable 16:56:09 _3b: ah, forgot about that. tbh, it's been a while since I needed this functionality, i just remember wanting it a while back and never really figuring out how to get things working to my liking. 16:59:11 Athas: i used to to literate programming in lisp using the leo editor + emacs + a few hacks. I no longer use literate programming with lisp, as lisp is pretty literate all by itself :) 16:59:18 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:59:29 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:01:16 kpreid: is there any easy way to install asdf on vista? 17:01:33 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 17:01:36 Bigshot_: asdf is one file to load in your lisp 17:01:50 I don't know whether clisp comes with asdf 17:01:56 and how to i specify other files? 17:01:59 s/to/do 17:02:13 like flexichain, climacs and mcclim 17:02:21 minion: tell Bigshot_ about ASDF 17:02:22 Bigshot_: please look at ASDF: asdf is Another System Definition Facility. http://www.cliki.net/ASDF 17:02:23 drewc: not by itself so much as lisp + some authors 17:02:27 -!- illumina` [n=user@164.106.249.254] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:02:32 Bigshot_: great manual there ^^^ 17:02:37 illumina` [n=user@164.106.249.254] has joined #lisp 17:03:47 i've been experimenting with org mode for lisp sources. I don't have much yet, but it's very cool. 17:03:51 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@115.184.141.243] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:04:14 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:34 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:04:39 interesting 17:05:41 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:05:51 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:06:01 i just started using org-mode a week or so ago and it's already changed the way i work considerably. 17:07:49 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:05 i've been meaning to chekc it out 17:08:40 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 17:08:52 how can i add the directories list into "asdf:*central-registry*" one by one using (setq asdf:*central-registry* ? 17:08:57 It's cool, but there's definitely a synchronization craziness aspect to it 17:09:56 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:10:15 milanj [n=milan@77.46.251.102] has joined #lisp 17:10:22 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:26 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit ["Be back later"] 17:10:38 dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.132.43] has joined #lisp 17:10:44 cornucopic [n=r00t@115.184.136.126] has joined #lisp 17:10:48 dlowe: git ! 17:10:49 -!- dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.132.43] has left #lisp 17:11:13 drewc: I mean with other devices. I have not yet ported git to my phone 17:11:24 though I hear someone did port emacs. Maybe I should try it. 17:11:24 dlowe: oh, yes of course. 17:11:44 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:47 -!- mega1 [n=mega@pool-05aad.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:11:50 dlowe: i'm working on a google calendar <-> org-mode sync actually 17:11:58 (i have a google phone) 17:12:12 oh, neat. 17:12:14 drewc: me too. I suspect you'll hit limitations with google calendar. 17:12:38 dlowe: indeed .. i don't need much though.. i just want to be able to add tasks from my phone really. 17:13:23 i could just use emacs through a terminal, but this is more fun. 17:13:52 (more fun meaning not accessed using chords that are difficult to do on the little keyboard) 17:14:02 drewc: org-mode and palmos are the only task managers I've found that support tasks which recur after the "done" time instead of the "due" time 17:14:06 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 17:14:50 dlowe, drewc: you might be interested in flashbake, it's like automated git for various normal documents 17:15:58 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 17:16:14 p_l: how does that compare with Dropbox? 17:16:26 Bigshot_: usually write it like this: (push #p"/my/directory/" asdf:*central-registry*) 17:16:35 Bigshot_: (note the trailing slash is important) 17:16:45 *dlowe* isn't trusting any data storage service for anything. 17:16:58 asksol_ [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 17:17:03 i did it using setf now it is saying component: FLEXICHAIN not found 17:17:33 kpreid: i've given correct path of flexichain folder 17:17:40 lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 17:17:41 and is there a "flexichain.asd" in it? 17:17:44 Bigshot_: did you give it a path, or a string? 17:17:44 luis: it's basically a small daemon that periodically commits a git tree, as well as automatically adds/removes files and writes changelog entries 17:18:04 luis: won't really fit source code, but for other types of documents, why not 17:18:08 drewc: #p"/my/directory/" 17:18:19 yes there is flexichain.asd in it kpreid 17:18:33 then, uh, something else is wrong 17:18:35 Bigshot_: _what_ did you do using setf? 17:20:01 drewc: http://common-lisp.net/~mmommer/asdf-howto.shtml#sec11 17:20:24 i wrote the path name in the #p"my/directory" 17:21:18 Bigshot_: did you omit both the leading and trailing slashes as you just did? 17:21:27 cause that ain't gona work! 17:21:54 Bigshot_: do the contents of your *central-registry* reflect what you expect? 17:22:08 c:\\climacs\\flexichain 17:22:50 i know little of windows ... but why the double backslashes? 17:22:58 drewc: inside quotes... 17:23:24 #p"c:\\..." is appropriate 17:23:35 #p"c:/..." works just as well 17:23:48 oh .. quotes of course 17:24:17 *drewc* has synapse firing issues this morning .. need more coffee 17:24:19 minion: chant! 17:24:20 MORE FUN 17:24:31 damn... more coffee ? 17:24:35 minion: chant! 17:24:35 MORE COFFEE 17:25:39 more more ;) 17:25:46 elliotstern [n=chatzill@129.21.83.157] has joined #lisp 17:25:51 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-168-132-106.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 17:27:04 nah, get more sleep instead. 17:29:12 luis: easy for you to say ... i left the hatch open and was woken up by the sweet sound of rain bouncing off my laptop. after the excitement of dealing with what had to be dealt with, going back to sleep was not an option :) 17:29:55 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:30:29 i make extra care to put my $500 phone away, but left my $1500 laptop on the companionway stairs.... priorities! 17:32:32 whups! 17:34:17 my phone is cheap, my laptop is an XO-1. No worries for me. :-) 17:34:34 xo-1? 17:34:41 ow 17:34:43 did it survive? 17:34:59 younder: a type of ancient proto-netbook 17:35:10 rsynnott: it did .. cover was closed thank $DEITY 17:35:16 I never used to worry about my laptop, but now i'm carrying around a mb-pro owned by work, so i have to be a bit paranoid 17:35:31 luis: i have 3 XO's :) 17:35:31 drewc: wow, lucky! glad to hear it 17:36:05 drewc: have you tried Chrome on them? Most usable browser so far. 17:36:25 luis: i didn't know Chrome was running on them! i'll give it a go for sure. 17:36:30 drewc: i did the same thing (left in a companionway witha hatch open) with a $5k camera once. not a happy camper (but it was ok) 17:36:40 Linux version is till not uou.. 17:36:46 out 17:37:08 wtf why is this asdf not detecting my files? 17:37:22 drewc: you have to download the deb and link some .so files. I can send you a tar.gz if you want. 17:37:28 lisppaste: url? 17:37:28 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 17:37:45 Bigshot_: go to that site, post a transcript of exactly what you did in your lisp session. don't change anything. 17:38:45 Bigshot_ pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82439 17:38:52 luis: i want! you can throw it in your $HOME on cl-net if you've got nowhere better for it :) 17:39:32 Bigshot_: as I said before, the trailing slash is important 17:39:49 c:/climacs/climacs is not the same path as c:/climacs/climacs/ 17:40:10 furthermore, it's not a good habit to overwrite *central-registry*; push additional items on instead 17:40:16 ah windows Bigshot_ 17:40:18 danlei [n=user@pD9E2EA49.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:24 Bigshot_: trailing slash, and have another look at the manual, cl:load doesn't work like that. 17:41:01 You need something that scans the directories into asdf:*central-registry* 17:42:03 no, that's a convenience, but not a requirement 17:42:29 true, but I will save you a lot of pain 17:42:34 it 17:42:36 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@ti132110a340-3137.bb.online.no] has quit [Client Quit] 17:44:01 In this case the directory actually containg the .asd files of all modules must be there 17:44:25 Bigshot_: and instead of "load", shouldn't it be "require"? 17:44:42 require is deprecated 17:44:46 jleija: i have not installed asdf 17:44:48 jleija: no .. it should be (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op ...) 17:45:03 ah ok 17:45:23 then start by installing asdf :) 17:45:31 jleija: REQUIRE is a nice shortcut on lisps that support integration with ASDF, but it's not going to work everywhere. 17:45:55 quidnunc [n=user@70.49.123.57] has joined #lisp 17:46:10 ok, nice to know 17:46:15 dismantr [n=jean-bap@ptr25-1-78-228-5-94.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:55 kpreid: same thing 17:46:58 doesn't load 17:47:32 Bigshot_: To help us help you, please do not ever say "doesn't": always quote the actual message it gave you 17:47:44 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 17:48:07 a file with name climacs.asd does not exists 17:48:20 well, you shouldn't be loading climacs.asd anyway 17:48:28 (most likely you're not in the right dir) 17:48:28 Bigshot_: your dangerously close to an RTFM or STFU ;) 17:48:31 you're 17:48:56 it says in installation to do load climacs.asd 17:49:03 Bigshot_: as is probably in the asdf manual, after you've set up *central-registry* you do this: (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :climacs) 17:49:17 that should be all that is necessary 17:49:22 http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/climacs/INSTALL?root=climacs&view=markup 17:49:39 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:43 TDT pasted "Dynamic error tossing" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82442 17:50:21 Bigshot_: well, that works too, if the asd file supports it. but that's only necessary if you haven't put climacs itself in the registry 17:50:39 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@143.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:50:45 but his *central-registry* is NOT set up right, that is EXACTLY the point 17:50:53 ok cool it worked but it now sayas "spatial-trees" not found 17:51:00 s/sayas/says 17:51:18 requred by clim-basic 17:51:40 For this paste, I was curious the first error works perfectly fine, the second one does not - what I'm trying to do is dynamically toss the error that's generated from a macro earlier in the app if it's not correct - is intern the right thing to use? Getting a type error when I try to run that. 17:51:48 jmbr [n=jmbr@230.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:51:50 drewc: I'll upload it when I get home, where the laptop is. 17:52:01 Bigshot_: that's another library to download 17:52:23 TDT: because of READTABLE-CASE, your symbol is not what you think it is. 17:52:54 oh .. wit 17:52:57 wait .. 17:53:02 TDT: never mind me 17:53:11 TDT: I bet *package* is not what you want it to be 17:53:15 drewc: hehe, yeah I had that error at first, actualy, and used upcase to make that part work 17:53:33 TDT: I recommend you always explicitly specify the package (second argument) when using INTERN 17:53:38 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@62-47-130-138.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:53:38 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-147-172.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:54:01 kpreid: Ok, I'll toss that in and give it a try 17:54:05 TDT: also, don't use strings... 17:54:06 also, your whole string expression can be condensed to (format nil "GIT-~A-ERROR" cmd) 17:54:16 kpreid: disagree! 17:54:37 what, the pprint issue? 17:54:38 (format nil "~A-~A-~A" 'git foo 'error) 17:54:59 eh 17:55:10 that will have the correct case for the current reader :) 17:55:19 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:55:27 The intern, that worked - interesting. I was in the test package when running some of this and surprised it'd work that way. So Intern, that goes off the package one's currently in? 17:55:31 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-82-202.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:55:39 clhs intern 17:55:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm 17:55:44 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 17:55:51 I've read the documentation, many times :) 17:55:55 As well as the CL cookbook 17:56:23 TDT: you can never read documentation too many times :) 17:56:25 TDT: intern is a function. just like eval, it does not, can not, and should not *know* what package the caller's code was read in 17:56:26 The test, though, since the intern is in a different package I just find it confusing that it is trying to look it up in the test package, when the code that calls the intern is in another package. 17:56:37 code is not "in" any package 17:57:16 I could (in-package :cl) and then write your code as (defun tdt::verify-git-cmd (tdt::stroutput tdt::cmd) ...) 17:57:27 this is *exactly* the same. there is no semantic difference 17:57:56 kpreid it compiled now i get this : DREI-LISP-SYNTAX> 17:58:01 Yeah, that's actually what I'm doing in the test package - but if the verify-git-cmd is in the tdt package and calls intern within there, it should look it up in the test package? 17:58:09 TDT: the spec for INTERN is very clear, as is the glossary entry for "current package" : current package n. (in a dynamic environment) the package that is the value of *package* in that environment, and that is the default package employed by the Lisp reader and Lisp printer, and their related functions. 17:58:18 Bigshot_: that's a prompt; what of it? 17:58:45 how can i start climacs now? i tried (climacs:climacs) but it didnt' start 17:59:03 Bigshot_: I don't think CLIM works under Windows 17:59:10 Bigshot_: as I said before, don't ever say "didn't". tell us what the error is. 17:59:14 "didn't start" .. that's quite useful to us. 17:59:26 sorry about that hold on 17:59:26 -!- ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:59:29 -!- dtulig [n=user@dyn-bway-129-215.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:59:35 is it plugged in? 18:00:29 Bigshot_ pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82445 18:01:04 drewc, kpreid: Thanks for the help. I'll reread the documentation a bit more..I can see this being helpful in a few days to use intern to look up stuff in the current package. It's kinda odd, I admit, at least through the idea of namespaces and modular code, but I can see this being kinda powerful. Thanks again. 18:01:36 Bigshot_: you tried to start climacs inside of an error during compilation of part of its code. of course it failed; climacs:climacs hasn't even been defined yet. 18:01:46 Pay attention to when the prompt contains "Break" 18:01:55 younder: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.mcclim.devel/1107 ... just cause you think it doesn't mean you should blurt it out as fact! 18:01:57 deal with the error, such as by using a restart, *then* proceed 18:02:00 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:02:15 TDT: I'd suggest reading PCL's chapter about packages and symbols. Did someone suggest that already? 18:02:40 drewc: I didn't 18:02:41 -!- asksol_ [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [Success] 18:02:42 luis: No, no one has. I still need to finish that book, heh. I will look at that as well. 18:02:58 (funcall (intern "CLIMACS" (find-package "CLIMACS"))) 18:02:58 darn the stupid thing closed due to error will i have to compile it again? 18:03:09 drewc: But I would expect trouble 18:03:47 TDT: definitely read that chapter then. Not really a problem if you haven't read the previous chapters I think. 18:04:54 luis: Yeah, read most of the book so far, I'm sure this will be fine..I think what hurt me with this book is that I've been reading it off and on for the last year or so now - not really dedicated reading through it. 18:04:57 younder: i'd be surprised if it was easy, that's for sure. 18:05:02 luis: I'll read this though, thanks :) 18:05:27 quick evaluation order question, if I do (setf ) then is evaluated first, right? 18:06:04 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:06:09 malcolm_reynolds: SETF is a macro, place is not neccesarily evaluated at all. 18:06:29 ausente2 [n=user7994@189-19-126-110.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 18:06:44 -!- quidnunc [n=user@70.49.123.57] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:06:53 one can speak of when the components of the setf expansion are evaluated though ... but I think it's unspecified 18:06:54 malcolm_reynolds: psetf 18:07:04 okay. so if I have (setf (aref array nid) (some-computation)) and some-computation changes the value of nid, will the (aref array nid) end up using the value of nid before the setf expansion? 18:07:07 oh wait, i misread 18:07:08 nm 18:08:19 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-890406b40a0dfc8f] has joined #lisp 18:09:22 kpreid: okay so if that is unspecified, then to guarantee that (aref array nid) is evaluated with nid's original value, I'm going to need to use a let or something to save that value, right? 18:09:28 malcolm_reynolds: i'm not sure that's specified ... but why would you want to do that? 18:09:41 more specifically, psetf will do left to right evaluation. 18:09:42 i knew that was possible, but i'm trying to eliminate as much consing as I can in a tree traversal computation 18:09:49 malcolm_reynolds: I suggest you ought to write it out explicitly just for the sake of clarity. 18:09:57 using a let will not cause additional consing. 18:10:08 malcolm_reynolds: as a reader of the code, i would want to see what's going on. 18:10:24 but binding in a let form is probably the best bet 18:10:45 malcolm_reynolds: i suggest writing a working implementation first, then profile. micro-optimisations from a position of ignorance aren't going to do much for you :D 18:11:02 drewc: fair point but this is my MSc thesis project, and it's got to scale up in a major way. no one else is working on it, so in this case making it all a bit of a pain to read in exchange for speed is a good call 18:11:16 malcolm_reynolds: *you are not going to get more speed by not using a let*. 18:11:19 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@129.21.83.157] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:11:32 malcolm_reynolds: but you don't seem to understand what's fast and what isn't ... so you could be making it slower for all you know. profile 18:11:35 drewc: i have a working implementation and I have profiled. these functions are consing a huge huge amount 18:11:50 then you should think about how to make them not cons 18:11:55 not how to make them short 18:12:01 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:12:13 ok... what's consing and where? I'm willing to bet it's not a LET form ;) 18:12:16 oh, jeebus, you're worrie dabout this from a performace p.o.v? YOu're looking in the wrong place 18:12:21 amost certainly 18:12:31 kpreid: No shorter code conses less in Lisp... in the reader! 18:12:40 tcr: ahahaha 18:12:40 snort 18:12:46 chuckle 18:12:59 I'll be willing to bet that shorter comments do too 18:13:00 *kpreid* saves that 18:13:02 okay i allocate a large vector at the start of each one but that's necessary, the function only exists in order to return a vector 18:13:08 and shorter variable names! 18:13:08 i presumed that let's cons 18:13:17 hence trying to get rid of them 18:13:48 malcolm_reynolds: presuming isn't such a great idea 18:13:57 is your problematic function short? 18:14:01 paste it, if so 18:14:09 okay, one sec 18:14:16 what compiler are you using? have you looked at the compiler warnings? 18:14:18 Bigshot_ pasted "look at the "end"" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82448 18:14:45 it automatically goes into Break syntax> 18:15:32 Bigshot_: google for "mcclim windows", read the first link, apply the patch, and then learn some lisp, then try some more, learn some more lisp, and come back when you know how to debug that error :) 18:16:09 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-82-202.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 18:16:15 http://paste.lisp.org/display/82449 18:16:28 in fairness, mcclim and windows is perhaps a tricky place to jump in 18:16:32 i'm using sbcl. no warnings yet, I guess that's because i haven't cranked up the optimisation flags 18:16:38 i wanted to see what I could do algorithmically first 18:16:50 *** - READ: input stream 18:16:57 that's your error 18:17:27 <_3b> not sure i'd call reducing consing 'algorithmically' 18:17:32 Blkt [n=wasdf@dynamic-adsl-94-37-247-217.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 18:17:49 well okay, but you know what i mean 18:17:52 <_3b> not sure i'd use generics in code that needs to be fast either :) 18:18:05 malcolm_reynolds: sbcl is very good about teaching you what needs to be done to make it fast 18:18:09 <_3b> no, i mean that lots of consing could be avoided by the compiler if you turned up optiimizations 18:18:12 listen ot your compiler 18:18:16 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-6cf19ece45ae85fd] has joined #lisp 18:18:25 <_3b> so you should start there (and what salex said) 18:18:25 and start with (optimize speed) 18:19:07 -!- SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@122.162.123.72] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:19:10 -!- rread [n=rread@192.18.41.196] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:19:44 fair enough about generics, I was just using them during development as a kind of weak type checking, so that if I didn't pass in a matrix or a tree or whatever I'd know about it pretty fast. I think it'd be pretty feasable to just replace the defgeneric with a defun (i don't have a complex class hierarchy at all), is that a good idea then?> 18:20:35 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:20:46 <_3b> i'd use a defun, maybe with a check-type or declaration to catch the type problems (depending on if i wanted to rely on sbcl, or check even with safety off, etc) 18:21:37 -!- ausente [n=user7994@189-19-121-109.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:21:45 okay. well my code seems fairly stable (and it's just number crunching, not a lot of different paths through it in honest) so I'm pretty sure any problems like that I would have already caught 18:22:14 _3b: method overhead isn't a bid deal here 18:22:14 *_3b* would leave safety on, but lots of people seem to disagree :) 18:22:34 malcolm_reynolds: the marray is a foriegn array? 18:22:42 GSLL array 18:23:09 i wonder about how well SBCL can optimise these things, but in at least 50% of my project it's necessary as I need to do an eigendecomposition or whatever on it 18:23:12 salex: Your blog posting says #''incf, first that's two quotes, second incf is not a function 18:23:31 probably some amount of them could be turned into native arrays though. maybe this one. 18:23:41 tcr: huh. that'll learn me for typing quick and not reerading 18:23:45 you're quite right 18:24:04 same for atomic-incf probably 18:24:09 mmmhmm 18:24:21 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-4337.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 18:24:28 malcolm_reynolds: i've gotten order-of-magnitude speedup just from the right (declare (speed ...)) incantations.. after that look at the compiler notes .. SBCL will tell you what's wrong. 18:24:30 i was avoiding typing html markup, but did it stupidly apparently 18:24:55 i'm getting lots of warnings about unable to optimise blah due to the first arg is a NUMBER, not a DOUBLE-FLOAT - do I just need a (declare (type (blah 'double-float))) everywhere it tells me? 18:25:23 tcr: thx for catching that 18:25:31 malcolm_reynolds: is that number always a double float? 18:25:35 malcolm_reynolds: if they are doubles, yes 18:25:42 otherwise, not so good :) 18:25:47 Too many too long posts on planet.lisp, too scarce time available :( 18:25:49 yeah i'm using them everywhere as that's what GSLL uses in the main 18:25:50 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:26:11 you're running into trouble with things like resistance-to-parent 18:26:13 right? 18:26:17 malcolm_reynolds: then that should help some. 18:26:22 Hello all ... 18:26:34 asksol [n=ask@062249178132.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 18:26:37 I'm getting a "WARNING: No sampling progress; possibly a profiler bug." 18:26:55 abeaumont_ [n=Alfredo@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 18:26:55 when I try to run the SBCL statistical profiler on a short bit of code 18:27:06 if I'm declaring something in a let with (let ((n (some-calculation))) ...) and I know some-calculation always returns a double-float, is there a way to put the type declaration in there? or should I just declare n in the let binding without an initial value, then put the (declare ..) just inside the let, then setf to it? 18:27:08 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:27:20 malcolm_reynolds: locally you can do things like (the double-float ...) for that but you might be better off looking at how your acessing thevalues if it is a really tight loop 18:27:25 the short bit. could you be more explicit 18:27:52 malcolm_reynolds: (declare (type double-float n)) 18:28:11 otherwise leave it alone 18:28:11 malcolm_reynolds: you can also declare function types (declare (ftype ...)) 18:28:19 and you can decalre functions 18:28:22 malcolm_reynolds: and (the double-float ..) 18:28:28 opps, drewc beat me to it 18:28:50 i have never declared an ftype ... but i don't do much optimising :) 18:28:54 so you have (let ((n (f ....))) (declare double-float n) ...) and the compiler will be happy 18:29:06 drewc: same here, but mostly because i can't remember the syntax on demand 18:29:07 drewc: usually in those same situations i'd end up inlining instead 18:29:50 Xach: !!! how long have you been back? 18:29:52 C-c C-d t shows a function type for me, that made me grok function type specifiers 18:29:59 Xach: you were missed! 18:30:40 hey xach 18:31:09 -!- illumina` [n=user@164.106.249.254] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:31:47 When there was only one set of footprints, I carried you, child. 18:32:04 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:06 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.123.72] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:32:18 malcolm_reynolds: generally speaking though, the typing etc. we've mentioned is going to be orders of magnitude more important that the sort of thigns you started off with.... 18:32:30 Xach: :D 18:32:51 salex: okay thanks :) 18:33:18 malcolm_reynolds are u a Firefly fan? 18:33:30 and worrying about it before even turning on (optimize (speed 3)) well, boggles a little bit ;) 18:34:01 Blkt: haha yeah. but i'm not going around with an internet persona from a sci fi show or anything, this genuinely is my real name ... 18:34:11 lol 18:34:29 that's wierd ahahah 18:35:49 okay so one of my initialisations is dividing two values where I've coerced them both to double-float but there is a warning on the division itself saying "; note: doing float to pointer coercion (cost 13), for: 18:35:49 ; the first result of inline float arithmetic" 18:35:56 any tips? 18:36:57 silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-112-150.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:10 which one? 18:37:28 the operation, i mean 18:37:52 you mean which specific line of code? it's not in what i pasted before. but all the tightest functions are in one file so i'm tackling them all at once 18:38:02 (r-total-over-n2 (/ (the double-float (sum-elements r-arr)) 18:38:03 (the double-float (* 2.0d0 n n)))) 18:38:13 that's the initialisation in question, the warning appears on the / 18:38:50 it's telling you it can't inline the computation, because it has to get the result of sum-elements 18:39:01 this is not terribly expensive 18:39:03 btw 18:39:25 okay. that's fair enough if it's unavoidable 18:40:04 well it's probably avoidable, but at what cost 18:40:17 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-27.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:40:24 get everything in resonable shape with non-generics and optimize declared 18:40:29 "If you have a problem with missing functionality in a programming environment, there is actually a name for the solution to your problem: It is called _programming_." ~ Erik Naggum 18:40:34 then profile it to see what's actually slow 18:41:06 That's just a random quote that I wanted to share, not apropos to anything being discussed. 18:41:08 -!- ausente2 is now known as ausente 18:41:21 It gave me a chuckle. 18:44:52 Hi Xach 18:44:58 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-243-56.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 18:45:15 Just back from Tuscany Italy myself 18:45:17 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:46:48 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:47:46 younder my homeland 18:47:56 younder where have u been? 18:48:02 For the record I am trying to organize a wake for Erik Naggum, among Oslo lispers, on friday 18:48:06 malcolm_reynolds: is calc-t the whole inner loop of your program, or something called repeatedly by other code? if the whole algorithm is inside calc-t, then there is no harm in it being a defgeneric since that's just a cost in calling it, not the body of it 18:48:44 calc-t is called ~220 000 times in the profiling run i did 18:48:47 Bltk: floreze, Sivenna, Cortona and other places 18:49:03 <_3b> how long do you keep the array it allocates after it is returned? 18:49:14 drewc: are you familiar with cl-walker? 18:49:15 lol, u circled around my hometown 18:49:29 younder: I had heard of him, but came to the CL community pretty much after he quit participating. I'm just now reading some of his posts. Even not knowing him, I feel a certain loss. 18:49:41 yeah, not long enough. i guess the next thing to look into is reusing the arrays t-array and s-sarray from one run to the next 18:49:56 malcolm_reynolds: also, I notice you're passing functions (#'helper, #'visit); to permit the compiler to optimize, make sure the HOFs sum-across-children and do-direct-children are declared inline 18:49:57 younder I live close to Chiusi, in San Casciano dei Bagni, is something like 30-40km far from Cortona, 90km from Siena 18:50:09 kpreid: will do, thanks 18:50:23 malcolm_reynolds: if the HOFs aren't inline, you pay the cost of closure allocation etc. 18:50:35 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-25-27.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:50:49 (but remember: benchmark! profile! quantitatively measure whether my advice is an improvement!) 18:51:16 well inlining can only ever increase speed right? and executable size is a minor concern here. 18:51:17 tcr: yea, or at least the arnesi version 18:51:27 inlining can decrease speed 18:51:30 -!- sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.utwente.nl] has quit ["restart"] 18:51:31 malcolm_reynolds: how big big are those arrays? 18:51:40 for example, if it causes code to not fit in processor caches 18:51:47 well on these runs they've been 20 in size 18:51:59 but this is the test run, i want to run this on graph sizes up to a million hopefully 18:52:01 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:52:16 or maybe not, I dunno, but certainly 5 figures seems feasable 18:52:24 so they'll be a lot bigger in future 18:52:43 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 18:52:54 and these are foriegn arrays becuase of some GSL code you are using? 18:53:21 yeah. I could possibly change some of them back to native 18:53:23 but not all of them 18:54:06 i just figured when i was starting out it could be more convenient for me just to use the same kind of array everywhere 18:54:11 it might be useful to do a standalone benchmark: do the same thing on an array and a marray and see which is faster 18:54:37 then you can see whether it might be worth converting without other distractions 18:55:38 yeah 18:55:54 yeah, i'm really not sure of the implications of marray, as I've never used them. 18:56:01 how long is this computation? 18:56:06 roughly? 18:56:35 depending on what you're doing, you might even win by just marshalling in and out of the ffi when needed 18:58:42 well potentially in the future i might want things to be running for hours 18:58:47 drewc: in cl-walker there's a walked-lexical-application-form and an unwalked-lexical-application-form, do you know about that? 18:59:26 drewc: lexical-application-form also contains a CODE slot, what's that about? 18:59:49 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:59:58 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-17.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 19:00:04 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:00:22 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:01:00 malcolm_reynolds: how much of that spent in gsl? 19:01:08 <_3b> maref looks like it might be expensive if i'm looking at the right code 19:01:28 drewc: Ah CODE seems to be the node object for the lexical function object; I thought that would be in OPERATOR but that only contains its name (probably because of consistency with free-application-form where you can't get at a node object for the free function's object) 19:01:46 kpreid is right too, generally little test cases to sanity check this sort of thing is going to get you there quicker than tweakin on your complete codebase 19:01:54 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 19:02:00 tcr: yes, that sounds about right 19:02:04 salex: not sure, too early to tell.. the profile results I have were a preliminary, and different parts of the program have different time complexities 19:02:19 so potentially when i increase the size of the dataset, a lot of these results change 19:02:30 the unwalk-forms are for the unwalker, which i don't know much about. 19:02:34 but at least making what is slow now faster means it will be less painful to get to that stage 19:02:52 tcr: the lisp-1 implementation uses the unwalker, if you're looking for an example. 19:03:03 unwalker? sounds like a joke.. 19:03:21 drewc: I'm going to add a free-macro-application-form and lexical-macro-application-form. I need those. 19:03:41 in general, is it a good idea to pretty much get rid of all generic functions? I mean I don't think there are any cases where I really need them (I don't think I have any classes inheriting from any other classes, at all), I just wasn't aware there was much of a performance hit. 19:04:02 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:04:04 <_3b> not all, just in inner loops 19:04:05 do or don't do. there is no try. Yoda :) 19:04:43 drewc: i downloaded 0.9.3 mcclim which should work on windows but now i again get error -- about Goatee not found 19:05:16 okay. what about the benefits of a class vs a struct? if I don't have any generics they are equivalently easy for me to use, but are classes slower? 19:05:28 *drewc* is going to lunch 19:05:35 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@115.184.136.126] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:05:38 malcolm_reynolds: yes 19:05:48 malcolm_reynolds: yes, but 19:06:01 They serve completely different purposes. 19:06:04 malcolm_reynolds: yes structs are faster and less powerful and automate more of the acessor bit 19:06:17 both methods vs. functions and classes vs. structs have some potential performance gains 19:06:18 I find that I mostly use structs for defining list-element accessors. 19:06:20 so USE classes 19:06:31 *but* you have to think about what you are gaining for that 19:06:43 *p_l* wonders if anyone commented on the nick 'malcolm_reynolds' :D 19:06:43 neither methods nor slot access is terribly expensive 19:06:49 p_l: yes, above 19:06:54 haha 19:06:56 for faster & less powerful, you can have (:meta-class standard-structure) or some such 19:07:05 without the automated accessor bit 19:07:12 and so if you are making your code harder to follow and extend, you really need to have a good reason 19:07:18 is it possible to specify the names of the accessors for a struct? 19:07:25 so really, structs are for when you like the struct syntax 19:07:25 so they aren't prefixed with the name of the struct? 19:07:29 salex: ah yes, /lastlog confirmed :D 19:07:39 the ost use I find for struct's is the (:type list) bit which can be quite useful when prototying 19:07:46 most 19:08:02 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-212.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:08:26 malcolm_reynolds: often i think moving struct->class for performacne on the access is not actually the right approach, fwiw 19:08:45 typically i end up hiding that stuff withint the methods 19:09:02 salex: struct->class? surely you mean class->struct? 19:09:07 erm, yes, sorry 19:09:10 ok 19:09:33 -!- drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-144.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:10:18 struct are more static-analysis friendly 19:10:39 I hate defclass it's so overly verbosing. And it's not just automatic accessor creation that DEFSTRUCT does, it does much more. With DEFCLASS I often need to write methods on initialize-instance, and print-object. I hate to do that bookkeeping cruft while prototyping, just distracts from my real problem. 19:10:48 and accessors are inlined 19:11:23 tcr: me too 19:11:25 is there a way to override the automatic accessor creation in a defstruct? and give it my own names (because otherwise it's codebase-wide change time) 19:11:41 but those are different reasons for prefering defstruct 19:11:44 malcolm_reynolds: yes 19:11:50 malcolm_reynolds: You can define a :CONC-NAME, that is the prefix used where the slotnames are appended 19:12:02 what i'm talking about is the case hwen you have a desing based on classes 19:12:16 and then thing, 'oh, i know, i'll go change everything to structs' 19:12:21 ah each attribute can be overidden too 19:12:38 salex: fair play but I think I have 4 different classes in my whole program now 19:12:41 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:12:50 salex: Yeah I was more arguing in favor of defclass*, oh noes! When I find the time, I'll blog about my thinking. 19:13:02 but almost every bit of the program touches data in those forms 19:13:14 malcolm_reynolds: it was really a more general comment 19:13:21 defclass is more powerful. default to that! 19:13:25 touching data is fine, but it depends how you're doing it 19:14:02 here's an example. You can't subclass an array, so maybe you have data arrays wrapped in a defclass (plus some other state) 19:14:30 now it's easy enough to provide a setf-able accessor to index your class 19:14:31 On lisp machines you could! 19:14:54 so what! 19:14:57 but you've got overhead on each array access now that can't be removed, because the slots aren't sealed 19:15:13 so compared to a declared simple-array type, you lose big 19:15:33 compared to.. defstruct 19:15:50 lol 19:15:55 compared to raw array access i'm saying, but bear with me 19:16:32 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-27-47.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:16:48 but usually on anything actuall expensive, you actually want to work on a lot of the array at once. with the right methods localizign assumptions about the array, etc, this is just fine 19:17:44 so it comes down to design really, but with a little care you aren't stuck with abstraction costs where you really need the speed 19:18:05 cadabra [n=cadabra@17.224.12.65] has joined #lisp 19:18:24 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@17.224.12.65] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:19:41 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-132.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:19:50 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance."] 19:20:04 no but caffeine helps 19:20:07 lol 19:20:09 -!- george__ [n=george@189.107.167.96] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:20:23 ??? 19:20:37 SIMD 19:20:52 hint 19:21:05 are there other people in this conversation of yours? ;) 19:21:34 I'm thinking CUDA 19:22:17 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 19:23:26 Sorry, just got off the phone from Cray 19:23:37 druel 19:23:40 i'm not really sure what your point was though 19:24:04 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 19:24:26 my point was you know nothing about his design 19:24:34 so? 19:24:38 it doesn't matter 19:24:45 (to my point) 19:24:52 salex: don't pay attention, this is normal for younder 19:24:58 so how do you know that it doesn't matter? 19:25:14 because it was a general point, and made that way 19:25:15 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:25:20 stassats`: ah. ic. 19:25:31 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:25:46 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 19:25:47 stassats`: It is eh? 19:26:11 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 19:26:13 mega1 [n=mega@3e70dc87.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 19:27:32 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:28:03 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:10 well sorry if my mind wanders.. 19:32:27 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-2-222.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:32:34 -!- drewc is now known as dns 19:32:44 tombom [i=tombom@86.29.159.26] has joined #lisp 19:34:14 laynor_ [n=laynor@93.107.1.23] has joined #lisp 19:36:16 -!- bobf_ [n=bob@host86-146-210-30.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:37:21 -!- younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:37:38 younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:39:26 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:41:42 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:44:27 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:31 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-74-74-202-180.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:45:23 -!- laynor [n=laynor@93.107.3.30] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:45:59 KoC [n=Jonny@69-196-186-43.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:46:08 so i hurd you like lisp cp2 19:46:25 -!- KoC [n=Jonny@69-196-186-43.dsl.teksavvy.com] has left #lisp 19:51:42 drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:51:55 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 19:53:05 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-212.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:57:12 -!- younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 19:57:33 younder [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:58:32 and yes. defconstant is in fact broken 19:58:48 use defparameter instead 19:59:10 ok, I said it 20:00:05 younder: Describe why in a single sentence. I've not had the patience to follow that thread. I've already had my own run-in with DEFCONSTANT. 20:01:08 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6BF3B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:23 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-251.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:01:32 ok. defconstant is ill defined and works diffrerently across implementations 20:01:39 what? 20:02:10 Try redefining a consstant 20:02:22 -!- drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:02:27 At least I have an excuse to lookup DEFCONSTANT in the CLHS using lispdoc on yubnub. 20:02:52 *tmh* is amazed by yubnub, command line searching, who'd a thunk it? 20:02:54 younder: did you read the spec? 20:03:04 malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:03:15 younder: "A constant defined by defconstant can be redefined with defconstant." 20:03:35 yes, it is too vague, an leaves too much up to the implementation 20:03:36 constant should be constant 20:03:51 in specspeak, "consequences undefined" means "don't do it" 20:04:09 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:04:10 but recompiling a ile with a constant should not give a error 20:04:15 file 20:04:24 DEFCONSTANT does exactly what the name implies, defines a symbol name for a constant. 20:04:29 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 20:04:49 *tmh* has admittedly had a problem keeping this straight in the past. 20:04:55 it is effectivly useless as it stands 20:05:30 constant is not a variable, news at 11 20:05:34 It conveys information to the compiler, this symbol is bound to a constant. 20:06:21 indeed, use defparameter even for constants 20:06:37 and save yourself some pain 20:06:37 -!- Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060215]"] 20:06:47 defconstant is not at all useless 20:07:06 Well, I'm off, have a nice evening 20:07:29 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #lisp 20:07:47 and defvar, not defparameter 20:08:19 defvar suffers the same deficciencies 20:08:50 On file recompile it doesn't change the value 20:09:02 -!- keithr [n=user@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:09:03 This is almot never what you want 20:09:12 almost 20:09:16 younder: that is the whole point of defvar. if you don't understand why it is useful, please hurl yourself off the nearest tall building. 20:09:18 actually, that's exactly what I want if I'm using defvar. 20:09:25 (actually, do that anyway) 20:09:40 I use defvar in that way to 20:09:43 *stassats`* uses defparameter rarely 20:09:51 -!- dns is now known as drewc 20:09:51 but I default to defparameteer 20:10:45 whatever 20:12:37 I am not going to hurl myself off the nearest tall building, but I am going to get a glass of wine and talk to my friends at the local bar. 20:12:41 antoni [n=user@143.pool85-53-26.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 20:13:09 eni4ever [n=admin@79.114.44.104] has joined #lisp 20:13:27 It is one of those rare tropical night's in Oslo. 25 degrees at 10 at night 20:13:33 younder: Then go already, we're trying to instigate a vicious debate about the merits or lack of DEFCONSTANT. 20:13:35 silly to waste it.. 20:13:42 chiao 20:13:50 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:01 Enjoy your wine. 20:14:08 will do 20:17:04 -!- dismantr [n=jean-bap@ptr25-1-78-228-5-94.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:21:16 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:21:20 Everyone hates defconstant. I don' think there is anything sane it can do short of disallowing redefinition entirely (or behaving as defvar), so everyone gets to do the boundp dance. 20:22:07 -!- silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-112-150.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:22:18 lispm [n=joswig@e177146178.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:22:53 *fe[nl]ix* loves DEFCONSTANT 20:23:09 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:23:41 that doesn't surprise me one bit. 20:24:26 hefner: thank you 20:25:08 in the ideal world, I would define defconstant as it is now except that redefinition is not undefined behavior but that it is unspecified which value you get, and undefined what happens if the value is not of the same type 20:25:20 I think this would produce the behavior people want 20:25:34 well, outside of "I want a singleton object" 20:25:38 Can't the compiler benefit from using DEFCONSTANT? 20:25:40 what about :test keyword? 20:25:54 tmh: it can, and sbcl does 20:25:58 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 20:27:10 yeah, alexandria's define-constant has a :test keyword 20:28:32 there is a discussion on DEFCONSTANT in c.l.l right now 20:28:38 malc_ [n=malc@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:29:55 drewc: Yeah, but I quickly lost patience in it because it seemed to be going into minutia that would rarely if ever factor into my use of CL. 20:32:27 drewc: is that why the troll dropped in? 20:32:28 -!- prxq [n=mommer@78.52.127.72] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:33:55 tmh: those minutia are a part of the whole of the defconstant issue... without them there's not much of an issue :D 20:34:23 drewc: minutiæ 20:34:54 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:35:14 fe[nl]ix: thank you :) 20:35:46 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:36:38 My uses of DEFCONSTANT, DEFPARAMETER and DEFVAR lack any sophistication. 20:37:27 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:37:28 tmh: excellent 20:40:14 rakista [n=rakista@c-71-59-128-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:43 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:41:00 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.123.72] has joined #lisp 20:41:12 -!- rakista [n=rakista@c-71-59-128-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:41:47 SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@122.162.123.72] has joined #lisp 20:43:15 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:43:46 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:30 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:45:10 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-251.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:45:33 benny [n=benny@i577A1855.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:46:06 -!- abeaumont_ [n=Alfredo@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:46:44 stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:25 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 20:48:44 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:49:39 cadabra [n=cadabra@17.224.12.65] has joined #lisp 20:50:13 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 20:50:26 that DEFCONSTANT discussion sure took an interesting turn 20:50:29 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:51:13 link to the cll discussion? 20:51:43 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/1c84b1c7593c9e03# 20:51:47 thanks 20:51:55 jlpeters [n=james@43.sub-75-209-5.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 20:52:35 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:48 *tmh* goes to read it, or at least scan for interesting things. 20:55:23 c.l.l. is full of 'interesting things' these days, afiacs 20:55:33 afaics, even 20:57:46 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177146178.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 20:59:09 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-25-27.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 21:00:10 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-27.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:01:28 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-74-74-202-180.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:01:32 elliotstern_ [n=chatzill@cpe-74-74-202-180.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:39 -!- elliotstern_ is now known as elliotstern 21:02:05 -!- stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:02:24 heh. it's fun to see enometh in non-#lisp discussions nowadays 21:02:31 i can't imagine checking infrequently and seeing the 903-message threads about VLAs 21:02:47 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-27.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:03:35 damn. i'm procrastinating pretty badly :) 21:03:39 that's why i check every 60 seconds and read them 2 at a time... 21:03:47 he 21:03:49 h 21:04:13 frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 21:04:21 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-27.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:04:44 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has left #lisp 21:04:55 -!- frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:06:04 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-27.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:07:12 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-27.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:07:56 wbraun [n=wolfgang@p5B202536.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:08:51 -!- joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [] 21:09:21 is it kosher to call shared-initialize by hand from initialize-instance :around to force some slot to be init'ed early? 21:09:31 mkfort [i=6jA25rou@68-189-164-209.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:10:24 joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 21:12:28 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:12:57 *lnostdal* uses call-next-method to do that 21:13:00 .. i think 21:13:03 postamar [n=postamar@76-10-172-93.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:09 mega1: sounds sketchy to me, but what do I know... 21:13:28 I have a tricky initialization problem. 21:13:43 there are three slots: layers, chunks, clouds 21:13:45 mega1: but then the main method would call shared-initialize again, possibly re-evaluating initforms(which might have side-effects) 21:13:54 -!- gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-140-182.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 21:14:02 HG` [n=wells@xdsley199.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:14:05 oh, side-effects 21:14:21 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.123.72] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:14:38 for the base class, the initialization of clouds depends on chunks 21:14:44 -!- SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@122.162.123.72] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:14:46 where's Krystof when you need him ? 21:15:02 the the subclass, the initialization of chunks depends on clouds and layers 21:15:13 it's circular if you consider both classes at the same time 21:15:48 and I find no good arrangement of initialize-instance, shared-initialize. 21:17:27 So I though I'd force initforms, default-initargs, initargs to be written to the slots early and call-next-method with computed chunks to the initialize-instance of the base class. 21:17:31 *thought 21:18:01 I hope you got a headache, too. 21:20:09 perhaps you could call S-I in the :around method, and if you override the main method to be a noop, you may get away with it 21:20:23 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 21:21:43 luis: you are my superhero. i love graphics like that. 21:22:04 i would faint if your next words are "and i drew it all automatically with vecto..." 21:22:08 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 21:22:51 dat [n=dthomp@206.212.231.117] has joined #lisp 21:22:56 nice indeed 21:23:01 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:23:14 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-74-74-202-180.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:23:34 fe[nl]ix: maybe, yes. I can actually solve this by providing a S-I after method for the subclass that computes chunks from clouds and layers and using a I-I for the base class. 21:23:53 Xach: sorry, no :) 21:23:58 mega1: but then you'd have to remember to noop-ize the main method for every eventual subclass 21:24:24 but one for circularity like this from a subclass and this trick won't work. 21:24:38 yeah 21:24:51 *but one more 21:25:01 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-74-74-202-180.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:26:06 why PCL is built separately? 21:26:42 *hefner* is impressed at the small difference in size between the cold and final cores. 21:27:57 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 21:28:45 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-82-202.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:29:31 elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:29:33 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:31:47 so, here's a question to the telepathic debuggers in this channel. If gc_assert(generations[gen].bytes_allocated == count_generation_bytes_allocated(gen)) fails, what might have gone wrong? 21:31:52 -!- jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:32:10 -!- ausente is now known as dalton 21:32:11 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:32:21 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 21:32:21 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 21:32:40 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:33:31 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:18 I'd bet on bit rot of the assert. 21:34:44 given that it's on a code path not used normally. 21:35:06 SharkBra1n [n=gerard@210.48.104.34] has joined #lisp 21:35:28 hmm, probably not. It passes 9 out of 10 builds. 21:35:52 (this is on a tree that I have mutilated, of course) 21:36:40 then all bets are off. 21:36:52 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:12 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:37:21 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-74-74-202-180.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:37:22 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 21:39:20 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:05 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:58 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:42:11 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:42:21 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 21:45:02 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:47:13 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:47:22 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 21:47:40 -!- asksol [n=ask@062249178132.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:48:01 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:52:13 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:52:23 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 21:54:46 -!- TDT [i=dthole@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit ["going home"] 21:55:20 any plans to release the cffi-using version of osicat? 21:57:13 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:57:21 hefner: would you like to take over osicat ? 21:57:23 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 21:58:19 dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 21:58:50 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70dc87.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:59:30 I've only just met it! 21:59:56 bobf_ [n=bob@host81-151-255-247.range81-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:01:07 -!- eni4ever [n=admin@79.114.44.104] has quit [Client Quit] 22:02:14 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:02:24 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 22:02:59 hefner: call it love at first sight :) 22:04:05 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:04:34 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 22:05:43 hefner: I think I could make a release tomorrow 22:05:53 sunny36 [n=somchok@203.159.92.21] has joined #lisp 22:06:02 hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.100] has joined #lisp 22:07:14 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:07:25 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 22:08:02 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 22:08:37 -!- Blkt [n=wasdf@dynamic-adsl-94-37-247-217.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )"] 22:09:55 BrianRice` [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:58 Blkt [n=Blkt@dynamic-adsl-94-37-247-217.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 22:10:04 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 22:11:10 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:11:39 elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:12:06 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:12:15 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:12:16 -!- bobf_ is now known as bobf 22:12:26 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 22:12:51 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:12:59 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 22:13:39 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["gbu"] 22:14:29 snowfarthing [n=alpheus@75-169-52-18.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:01 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:17:16 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:17:26 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 22:17:45 fe[nl]ix: should we (by which I mean you) my awesome release.sh? 22:18:03 *use 22:18:11 -!- postamar [n=postamar@76-10-172-93.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [] 22:18:49 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 22:18:52 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-82-202.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:19:08 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:19:23 probably 22:20:19 who ported osicat to cffi? 22:20:40 Was it me? 22:21:15 heh 22:21:34 luis: can't remember. either you or me :D 22:22:00 huh, we have a git repository. That should give us a hint. 22:22:17 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:22:27 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 22:22:55 -!- snowfarthing [n=alpheus@75-169-52-18.slkc.qwest.net] has left #lisp 22:23:22 Author: Luis Oliveira, Date: Mon Aug 6 08:00:34 2007 22:23:24 Port to CFFI, integrate CL-POSIX as OSICAT-POSIX, and more. 22:25:10 1 out of 87 total tests failed: OSICAT-TESTS::MAPDIR.1. Sounds good enough for a first release. 22:26:43 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@17.224.12.65] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:27:45 assuming i am deleting all the .fasl files in my project, and starting a new lisp, is there anything else that could lie around carrying state of previous versions of the project? I'm getting some really odd errors which aren't very reliable to reproduce, and i've been jumping around revisions in my version control and I think that might have something to do with it. 22:27:52 fe[nl]ix: hmm, I have to port the script to Git. I'll do that tomorrow. 22:27:57 previously "known good" revisions are no longer all working :/ 22:28:08 hmm that's not the smiley i wanted... 22:28:13 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:17 -!- malc_ is now known as malcolm_reynolds 22:28:31 malcolm_reynolds: what errors? 22:28:56 luis: osicat work happening? 22:29:09 stuff like variables being undeclared, which make me think that somewhere in the lisp there is an old version of the function 22:29:11 -!- sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [] 22:29:40 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:41 lispm [n=joswig@e177147004.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:29:47 if i'm right that apart from the lisp core and fasl files (i never use save-lisp-and-die, it's always fresh) there is nothing except the source, then i'm kind of confused. but at least i know it's my problem. 22:29:51 nikodemus: not since January, by Stelian. 22:29:56 rather than some quirk of lisp 22:30:11 nikodemus: but we're looking into releasing what's there. 22:30:12 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:30:20 luis: cool 22:31:01 luis: call it 1.0? 22:31:10 malcolm_reynolds: maybe they are really undeclared? like you aren't loading some prerequisite 22:31:14 it's old enough for sure :) 22:31:14 we were still waiting for you to come and scream "what have you done with osicat?!" I guess :) 22:31:22 fe[nl]ix: what do you think? 0.9? :) 22:31:32 last time i looked i was quite happy 22:31:42 the eternal 0.9 releases.. 22:31:53 basically most of the errors say variables are unbound, even when they are compiling the very place they appear.. like when the repl output is "compiling (defparameter *saved-state-array* ..)" I get an error that "the variable cngh-test::*saved-state-array* is unbound" 22:32:14 stassats`: I know, that should be the cause, but i'm racking my brains and I really don't think i've changed anything that would cause this 22:32:17 i think i (or someone) should look how the recentish sbcl map-directory maps to osicat stuff 22:32:18 you are not using CL package? 22:32:34 what, the cl-user package? 22:32:42 no, CL 22:32:51 (since it was the api that turned out to be mostly sufficiently to implemrnt CL:DIRECTORY) 22:33:00 like in (defpackage your-package (:use #:cl)) 22:33:01 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:33:10 ah right. let me check.. 22:33:11 hmm, I should also change release.sh not to clutter the changelog with changes to version numbers in .asd files. 22:33:28 but i'm all for osicat action by other people than me :) 22:33:39 yeah i definitely am in cngh-test package, and i think probably all my other ones 22:33:51 i don't think that's likely to have changed for a while 22:33:55 ruepel0r [n=rue@203.97.49.162] has joined #lisp 22:33:59 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:34:09 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 22:34:13 is cffi still the only dependency? 22:34:39 sea4ever [i=sea@216.110.106.24] has joined #lisp 22:35:02 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:35:03 malcolm_reynolds: maybe you have (defparameter *saved-state-array* *saved-state-array*) ? 22:35:09 nikodemus: basically yes 22:35:18 basically? 22:35:35 nikodemus: and stuff that cffi also depends on 22:35:41 like alexandria and trivial-features 22:35:51 luis: you fast typist 22:35:53 stassats`: no, i just triple checked 22:36:01 oh, right 22:36:08 fe[nl]ix: ~90 WPM, I've been practicing 22:36:09 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:36:21 cffi has babel and what else? 22:36:30 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:33 this is crazy, this stuff was all working fine but now completely random disparate parts of the code are erroring during compilation 22:36:33 nikodemus: babel, alexandria and trivial-features 22:36:42 that's not bad 22:36:51 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:37:01 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 22:37:02 particularly since everyone but nyef already has cffi 22:37:09 malcolm_reynolds: what have you changed recently? 22:37:46 nikodemus: and it depends on cffi-grovel which ships with cffi now. 22:37:51 oh crap, cpu fan stopped spinning 22:37:52 that's the point, i'm at revisions I committed a week ago 22:37:54 which now don't work 22:37:59 it=osicat 22:38:08 malcolm_reynolds: not in code, but in your setup 22:38:27 augh. 22:38:30 i'm pretty sure I've updated no libraries recently. haven't changed sbcl version. 22:38:35 okay 22:38:42 my app is dying on writing unicode to stdout 22:38:51 oh I see why lol 22:39:10 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 22:39:32 .. if i had to guess it seems that my .asd file is loading things in a dodgy order, if at all 22:39:47 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:36 but i don't know how that bugginess could be propagating back through time in my repository.. 22:40:43 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:40:51 is your ~/.sbclrc clear? 22:41:51 uh it's not got much in. require :asdf, require :asdf-install, require :cl-store, require :sb-sprof, push a custom location to *asdf-registry*. that's it 22:43:25 -!- jlpeters [n=james@43.sub-75-209-5.myvzw.com] has quit [] 22:43:30 regarding the "cngh-test::*saved-state-array* is unbound", are you sure your package isn't screwed up and not using CL? 22:44:19 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:44:57 don't trust the source, check (package-use-list :cngh-test) 22:45:15 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [] 22:45:47 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@230.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:46:27 I assume :cl and :cl-user are synonyms for each other? 22:46:37 no 22:46:48 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:47:05 okay. is common-lisp and cl the same? 22:47:09 yes 22:47:19 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:47:29 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 22:47:46 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 22:48:04 like right now (pacakge-use-list :cngh) says that :cngh uses package common-lisp. then i tried to load cngh-test again, and I get an error that "component :cl not found, required by :cngh, condition of type missing dependency" 22:48:09 that makes no sense to me at all.. 22:48:35 well, you have depends-on :cl in your asdf? 22:48:38 -!- lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:48:50 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 22:48:53 systems and packages are different. 22:49:23 in the asd for cngh, yes. 22:49:34 that's wrong 22:49:42 i didn't have it in cngh-test.asd but i assumed transitively it would bring it in.. 22:50:37 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"] 22:50:40 remove :cl from depends-on list 22:50:58 okay 22:51:21 right now i'm back to the original error that caused me to start messing with things. hold on a second and let me do a paste 22:52:20 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:52:30 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 22:52:38 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6BF3B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 22:54:51 http://paste.lisp.org/display/82466 okay so the macro at the top is part of my utility package, compiled first. no errors 22:55:24 then much muuuuch later i try to compile something that uses (dbg-indent) (second code snippet) and i get the error at the bottom 22:55:45 you don't have with-gensyms defined? 22:55:50 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdsley199.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:57:20 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:57:22 it's defined in the same package as dbg-indent 22:57:26 just checked. works fine. 22:57:30 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 22:57:32 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:52 with-gensyms in the same file can be a problem 22:59:38 try to use eval-when with :compile-toplevel etc. around it 22:59:52 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 22:59:57 it's in a different file, but one that is compiled just after the dbg-indent file according to my .asd 23:00:16 well, here's your problem 23:00:34 it should be compiled before 23:01:13 and loaded before 23:01:50 so just swap their order in the asd and it should be all good? 23:02:05 if dbg-indent uses the macro with-gensyms, then the compiler must know about it 23:02:11 if you use :serial t, then ye 23:02:15 s 23:02:19 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:02:27 otherwise it will think it is a function and compile it as a function call 23:02:28 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 23:03:21 the (with-gensyms ... is a real code part of the macro, not list data 23:05:11 okay this all makes sense 23:05:22 let me just restart everything and we'll see if that was it 23:06:39 assuming that was it, how could that problem have remained hidden so long? (both with-gensyms and dbg-indent used to do exactly the right thing). could I just have had some miraculously working stale .fasl files that never got detected as needing recompiling? 23:07:21 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:07:27 sellout [n=greg@pool-151-199-34-70.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:27 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:07:31 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 23:07:45 if you compile the file with the undefined with-gensyms you should see and undefined function warning of the compiler 23:07:52 see an 23:08:18 it's getting hot 23:09:05 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 23:09:09 hmm, no errors on the main project .asd, but the -test.asd is still saying *saved-state-array* is unbound 23:10:16 does its package really use :cl? haven't you misspelled defparameter? 23:10:26 -!- sunny36 [n=somchok@203.159.92.21] has quit [] 23:10:44 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:10:53 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:11:01 aw, lame. dirent.d_type isn't posix? I think using that (and not having to stat every file) contributed to making the osicat version of my directory walker 6x faster than my old sb-posix one, but I guess I'll kludge d_type into sb-posix to confirm that. 23:11:10 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:11:42 (I'm probably the only person who benchmarks posix wrappers and complains if they're too heavy) 23:11:45 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 23:11:50 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:12:23 hefner: my posix man page says that the only required slots are d_ino and d_name 23:13:16 hefner: try man dirent.h 23:13:28 -!- dat [n=dthomp@206.212.231.117] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:13:34 okay, i think i might have this nearly nailed down 23:13:42 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:13:44 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:13:55 amusingly, CCL fails horribly, by running the same code 120x slower than SBCL. 23:14:15 that's weird 23:14:17 not only is d_type not present at all on many systems, it's always DT_UNKNOWN for many systems where it is present 23:14:18 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 23:14:34 foom: yay for unix 23:14:43 well, it *is* a nonstandard extension. :) 23:15:04 turns out the defparameter that was causing the issue was the one after the one I thought it was 23:15:05 http://paste.lisp.org/display/82467 23:15:45 if i comment out the last defparameter near the bottom, then the whole shebang compiles fine except for a warning that *sbcl-1-0-23-saved-random-state* is undefined 23:15:47 right, it's not defined at read-time 23:16:16 hefner: ouch. 23:16:20 okay i remember having huge issues here when i wrote it. clearly whatever i did to get it "working" was completely transient but saved forever in a .fasl 23:16:57 sykopomp: I'd profile it, but CCL's procedure for profiling on linux seems to involve generating fake ELF files and sacrificing rodents 23:17:17 hefner: yeah :\ 23:17:23 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:17:25 having a profiler in CCL would be wonderful. 23:17:33 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 23:17:47 you mean statistical profiler? 23:17:49 can you point me in the right direction to get the random state object initialised at read time? or any other way to do what i want? In case it's not clear what i want to do, i want a known state for the random number generator so i can run code deterministically (my algorithms have lots of randomness), for debugging unit tests etc 23:17:51 and in the end, it's probably something completely retarded, like converting strings.. from C to iso-8859-1 =/ 23:18:03 stassats`: yes. 23:18:23 stassats`: even a theological profiler would be nice 23:18:40 fe[nl]ix: theological profiler? 23:19:07 malcolm_reynolds: make two files and put the second defparameter in the second file 23:19:08 madnificent: ask the gods 23:19:30 night, I was assuming it was actually something existant 23:19:31 malcolm_reynolds: fasldump it? 23:20:09 malcolm_reynolds: alternatively use EVAL-WHEN around the first defparameter and make sure it gets evaluated in the compiler environment, too 23:20:50 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 23:21:19 okay. can you point me to a good (ie, not just the hyperspec) tutorial about read/compile/runtime, as while i know I intuitively understand them, it seems the subtleties (especially when combined with reader macros) have been the cause of a pretty big headache here. 23:22:14 well, cltl2 would be a start 23:22:23 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:22:24 On Lisp maybe? 23:22:34 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 23:22:46 okay i was planning to grab on lisp at some point 23:23:12 i have Graham's ACL, but it seems to be all the stuff outside the scope of that book which has the potential to really ruin my day 23:23:40 ACL is pretty basic and not really very enthusiastic 23:23:52 yeah. but it got me going pretty well. 23:24:09 On Lisp is a quite bit better, explaining macros, etc 23:24:57 CLtL2 is also a useful read, it is easier to read than the ANSI CL spec - though in places it is outdated 23:25:13 ..and my unit tests pass. okay, I think this "week ago" revision is fixed, and hopefully i can remember what i need to do to fix HEAD 23:25:31 huge huge thanks to everyone who helped, i would be in a hell of a mess without you guys 23:25:33 have you read PCL? 23:26:11 clhs: 3.2.3.1 23:26:11 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bca.htm 23:26:18 no, i know i really should 23:26:39 when i sit down for lisp reading i'm kind of drawn to sicp (about half way through) but i guess that's not giving me anything to help me out of these practical situations 23:27:07 SICP is useful for other parts of Lisp 23:27:24 but PCL is really a good read to get the feeling of Common Lisp 23:27:24 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:27:34 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 23:27:50 yeah. like i did a fairly theoretical CS degree (they started us on ML) so i'm down with that kind of functional stuff 23:28:07 but this project is essentially a) I need to crunch lots of numbers in matrices and b) I HATE matlab 23:28:10 thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:35 if you know the functional stuff, then PCL will show you more the practical stuff with respect to CL 23:30:00 -!- sellout [n=greg@pool-151-199-34-70.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:31:47 malcolm_reynolds: if you just want to move forward without understanding replace the #S(RANDOM-STATE ...) with (sb-kernel::%make-random-state :state *saved-state-array*) 23:32:19 deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has joined #lisp 23:32:24 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:32:34 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 23:32:35 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:33:33 (and send email to sbcl-devel or sbcl-help and ask for this to be provided as a supported feature) 23:33:40 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:34:25 *stassats`* is trying again to understand VOPs 23:35:13 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.32.7] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:35:14 it's cool, I think i've got it.. basically am i right in saying the whole of that file i pasted is read first, and the #. forces the evaluation of something at read time.. but if i put the two defparameters in two separate files then the first defparameter is read and compiled, thus making it available for #. in the next file at read time? 23:35:27 plage [n=user@118.68.32.7] has joined #lisp 23:35:30 Good morning. 23:35:41 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 23:36:31 almost 23:36:51 read and compiled is fine, but it also must be loaded 23:36:59 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:37:00 oh, god. this is braindead. I can't recompile sb-posix to modify the groveled definitions because (I think) gensym-named padding slots cause alien to complain about incompatible alien record type redefinition 23:37:09 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 23:37:27 if you compile a file, the file compiler can forget the definitions after the file is compiled 23:37:29 -!- antoni [n=user@143.pool85-53-26.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:37:38 you then have to load the compiled file 23:37:49 antoni [n=user@143.pool85-53-26.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:38:11 ah.. so when i load something with asdf, it reads, compiles, writes a .fasl, then forgets all it has just read/compiled, THEN loads the fasl? 23:38:34 during compiling the file, the file compiler will recognize some definitions and be able to execute them: macros! 23:38:59 asdf doesn't forget compile-time side effects 23:39:03 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:06 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["gbu"] 23:39:18 stassats`: as in, if I put a print statement at the top level in a file? 23:39:23 COMPILE-FILE is used to compile a file 23:39:33 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:39:59 if during COMPILE-FILE a function is compiled, then after compiling the file, the function is still undefined 23:40:09 stassats`: unless you load a previously compiled system... (from eg. yesterday, that is) 23:41:24 if during COMPILE-FILE a macro is compiled, the compiler knows this macro during file compilation, when the file is compiled, then the file can forget the macro 23:42:02 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-36ed70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:42:08 malcolm_reynolds: as in state modification 23:42:10 so, if you want the compiler be able to use the compiled functions, you need to load the fasl file 23:42:31 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:42:40 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 23:43:09 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-208-211.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 23:43:21 man, this language is crazy as hell but i think i love it 23:43:22 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-36ed70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:44:00 it would be a bit simpler if not for its halfhearted attempt at separate compilation 23:46:01 i still can't get that right ... i often side-effect the compile-time environment and then puzzle as to why things are not happening when i reload from .fasls. 23:46:28 drewc: use cfals 23:47:23 cfasls, yeah.... that's a can of worms i'm not ready to open either :) 23:47:31 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:47:41 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 23:48:01 *hefner* expresses irritation at spooky groveling machinery he doesn't know how to operate 23:51:29 well, in former times one preferred to not compile and load every file 23:52:10 even in present times, with certain compilers. 23:52:31 the reason was that one could compile as many files as possible without causing to many compilations of other files 23:52:32 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:52:41 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 23:52:48 compilation then was slow, loading files sometimes even slower 23:53:18 the Symbolics compiler was famous for being slow and loading was slow too ;-) 23:53:21 cfasls? 23:53:38 CCL is much faster in these things nowadays 23:54:01 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:54:13 lispm: It would be interesting to redesign that entire thing in terms of an image-based rather than a file-based system. 23:54:22 speaking of which, xcvb is currently working and making strides forward. 23:54:22 antoni` [n=user@143.pool85-53-26.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:54:47 Fare: Congratulations! 23:54:54 Fare: When can we expect a release? 23:54:54 we still haven't migrated our ITA software to use it, but may actually happen next month 23:55:04 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 23:55:07 Fare: i'm thinking of using xcvb for a system that currently is dog slow to compile... is the time now? 23:55:12 there's already a usable release in git 23:55:34 there are many things to improve 23:55:38 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.251.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:55:51 and it's not usable as an in-image loader (yet) 23:56:10 but if you've got something big to compile, it will save you a lot of headaches. 23:56:47 Fare: will it use both my cores when compiling? 23:57:14 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@apn-89-223-230-139.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 23:57:19 plage: it is not image-based to allow parts of the compilation being done by external compilers/assemblers 23:57:32 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:57:42 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 23:57:49 drewc, it will! 23:58:02 drewc, if you invoke make with option -j 23:58:06 Fare: sold! :D 23:58:59 plage, redesign what in terms of an image-based system? 23:59:33 plage, compilation? Then you REALLY need pure image combination (through virtual images) 23:59:47 Fare: The entire idea an mechanism of separate compilation and generation of fasl files.