00:00:27 Lectus_ [n=Frederic@189.105.25.169] has joined #lisp 00:00:38 -!- Lectus_ [n=Frederic@189.105.25.169] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:01:00 Guthur: which one ? 00:01:12 nevermind 00:02:55 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 00:03:40 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:07:34 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:08:35 -!- rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-d6c7f4834e56ffbb] has quit [] 00:08:35 -!- dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:11:03 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:54 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE00236916024d-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:15:21 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:17:14 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:20:16 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 00:21:19 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 00:22:31 -!- Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.10.45] has quit [No route to host] 00:23:49 -!- milan [n=milan@77.46.174.192] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:25:05 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:25:51 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:26:20 -!- merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:27:14 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:27:54 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:28:23 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-132-8-72.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 00:34:37 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087D1DF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:37:08 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:38:12 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:38:12 plage [n=user@118.68.34.65] has joined #lisp 00:38:15 Good morning. 00:40:51 -!- sampointon [n=sampoint@79-78-75-122.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [] 00:46:29 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:51:10 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:51:26 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 00:52:11 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 00:52:39 rdad [n=rdad@cpe-67-247-62-86.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:54:13 nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:28 ppc clrrwi 00:54:29 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for clrrwi. 00:54:38 ppc clrrw 00:54:38 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for clrrw. 00:54:41 Hrm. 00:54:54 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:11 Ah, it's an rlwinm variant. 00:55:12 rlwinm 00:55:15 ppc rlwinm 00:55:15 Rotate Left Word Immediate Then AND with Mask: http://www.nersc.gov/vendor_docs/ibm/asm/rlwinm.htm#idx759 00:56:03 moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 00:56:10 and they called PPC RISC ;) 00:57:21 PPC is the one with the MSB at index 0, isn't it? 00:57:39 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B146.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:57:41 no idea. 00:57:52 I know -one- of the architectures is stupid that way, and I think it was PPC. 00:58:15 It's clearly not alpha, and I think I'd remember if it were MIPS given that I've written a CPU core for that... 00:59:31 -!- lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:59:50 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 01:00:39 Aha! BIC is ANDC2, with arg2 being the shifter operand. A quick (inst bic res res ...) should fix this. 01:01:55 OK, who was it that asked me to send mail to BBN about SpyGlass? 01:02:03 is PowerPC big endian? 01:02:12 fixnum-tag-mask. That's the value I need... 01:02:22 rdad: It's configurable in hardware, if memory serves. 01:02:29 ah, it was tcr. 01:02:31 Failing that, yes, big-endian. 01:03:14 nyef: crap! Is that possible? For a cpu to be either or? 01:03:27 Sure! alpha was, MIPS is, etc. 01:03:38 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-40-47.ucr.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:03:39 ARM is, too. 01:03:39 crap as in "holy smokes" 01:03:45 minion: memo for tcr, I got an answer from John Zinky at BBN who seems to think that BBN might be willing to make SpyGlass open source. He is asking who is going to help out with the port to McCLIM. What should I tell him? 01:03:46 Remembered. I'll tell tcr when he/she/it next speaks. 01:03:59 interesting 01:04:52 Actually, it's largely a case of if you set the CPU mode wrong then you need to do a lot more in software to talk to stuff in the outside world. 01:05:27 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:05:30 is it possible to ffi-embed c++-code into common lisp? 01:06:03 Yay! Down to 68 ERROR conditions from 74 when I started this hacking run. 01:06:20 schoppenhauer: sure, start with extern "C" and you then only have to FFI to C. 01:06:59 pkhuong: is there some possibility without having to write a glue-library? 01:07:20 <_3b> well, first write a c++ abi, and convince everyone to use it... :) 01:07:30 Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.25.169] has joined #lisp 01:07:36 If you think very hard, are willing to be somewhat unportable and hack out a lot of code. 01:07:43 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:07:55 Oh, and don't care about unwinds/exceptions. 01:07:59 _3b: That bit has been done for most platforms. 01:08:29 <_3b> nyef: ah, that makes it easier then, can just move on to step 2, rewrite the lisp implementations to use it too :) 01:08:36 Heh. 01:08:51 Arguably, many of them do, at least partially. 01:11:46 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Client Quit] 01:12:10 -!- xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has quit ["Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.2.0"] 01:12:57 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:14:54 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@194.11.28.1] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:16:04 -!- Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.25.169] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:16:10 Lectus_ [n=Frederic@189.105.25.169] has joined #lisp 01:17:51 *rtoym* updates portable-clx to work with cmucl. Now what? 01:18:27 How do you mean "now what"? 01:18:32 rtoym: email patch to Xof? 01:18:42 grouzen [n=grouzen@194.11.28.1] has joined #lisp 01:18:54 inforichland [n=inforich@96-42-29-58.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:18:54 Ooh. More changes to upstream! Fun. ^_^ 01:19:02 Yeah, I'm looking up Xof's email address... 01:19:18 Ah, found it. 01:19:39 -!- Lectus_ [n=Frederic@189.105.25.169] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:20:23 how come xlib:event-case only returns when it receives an event? 01:20:47 impulse32: Because that's what it's supposed to do? 01:20:55 You want to poll instead? 01:21:04 yea 01:21:08 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-37.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:11 is there a function for that? 01:21:23 There's a :timeout parameter for event-case. 01:21:26 aquateen [n=chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:30 Set it to 0, and it should poll. 01:21:37 ahh ok 01:21:39 thanks a lot 01:22:33 couloir [n=chatzill@96.49.120.130] has joined #lisp 01:22:37 If you start getting more involved with event handling, you may want to explore the other options, including just having a straight-up event-handling function that you pass to whatever the main event receiver is. 01:23:00 I occasionally know what function is involved, but the knowledge comes and goes. 01:23:21 What are you hacking on, btw? 01:23:53 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:24:06 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 01:24:28 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.34.65] has left #lisp 01:25:03 just revisiting some code i wrote a while back 01:25:28 it's just a bunch of circles in a flock 01:26:03 Ah, okay. 01:26:39 i was trying to figure out how to add more circles during the main loop when i gave up on the code 01:29:39 Hmm. Hemlock doesn't work with unicode. Too bad for the hemlock users. (All zero of them?) 01:30:24 Umm... You're updating cmucl stuff? 01:31:12 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 01:31:46 Yeah. 01:32:05 Then you might find http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=users/abridgewater/clx.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/glx-fixes to be of interest. It's downstream of Xophe's CLX. 01:33:52 I suspect that at some point I'll end up making it horribly SBCL-dependent, but some of what I have in mind is more python-specific than sbcl-specific. Meanwhile, I don't believe I've broken anything portability-wise yet. 01:34:22 -!- couloir [n=chatzill@96.49.120.130] has quit ["beep"] 01:34:46 I don't know anything about X, so I'm not really the right person. I only updated to get clx to work with Darwin's funky default display variable names. 01:34:49 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["later"] 01:35:31 Yeah, this is all OpenGL fixes. If you're packaging, though, you might want them. 01:37:21 Ah, the beauty of distributed version control! You never know which distributed version you want. :-) 01:37:38 Heh. 01:38:04 It's worse when what you want is spread out over multiple peoples trees. 01:38:53 I don't even know if any system I have has opengl. Presumably my linux and mac box do. But I wouldn't know how to test that the gl stuff works. 01:40:27 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-a8c68645a2dbcd12] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:42:03 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE00236916024d-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:42:14 impulse32 [n=impulse@99.226.7.145] has joined #lisp 01:47:11 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.244.48] has joined #lisp 01:47:54 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.253.67] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:48:08 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:53:48 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@194.11.28.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:55:21 Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:20 grouzen [n=grouzen@194.11.28.1] has joined #lisp 01:59:21 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:00:04 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:54 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:01:51 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@194.11.28.1] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:01:59 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 02:05:41 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 02:08:58 -!- inforichland [n=inforich@96-42-29-58.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [] 02:08:59 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-56.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:09:22 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954EF86.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:13:44 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:19:11 qbg [n=quickbas@74-33-17-137.dsl1.mond.mn.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:58 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:28:59 ... It's wednesday? How'd it get to be wednesday? 02:30:55 yep 02:30:59 it was wednesday all day 02:31:15 Yeah, but I sortof thought it was tuesday for some reason. 02:32:11 grouzen [n=grouzen@194.11.28.1] has joined #lisp 02:32:59 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 02:33:15 qbg_ [n=quickbas@74-33-17-137.dsl1.mond.mn.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:00 -!- qbg_ [n=quickbas@74-33-17-137.dsl1.mond.mn.frontiernet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:41:28 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-140-190.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:23 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:43:13 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:43:40 hsuh [n=user@187.36.13.33] has joined #lisp 02:43:41 -!- hsuh [n=user@187.36.13.33] has left #lisp 02:44:54 Lectus_ [n=Frederic@189.105.25.169] has joined #lisp 02:45:51 -!- ausente is now known as dalton 02:47:04 jlf [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:47:27 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:48:52 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:48:53 timchen1` [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 02:49:12 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:35 -!- qbg [n=quickbas@74-33-17-137.dsl1.mond.mn.frontiernet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:53:10 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:53:45 *rtoym* hacks on hemlock and makes it work a little better. It doesn't just flash the window any more. 02:53:54 herbieB: Hey, I'm looking into the problems I have with mcclim in nekthuth. The problem occurs in addSyntax when doing the eval(msg). After the error occurs, Nekthuth proceeds to dump a list of symbols. is mcclim not a recognized symbol or such? 02:55:22 Okay, kill out the three closure hacking VOPs with %translate clauses and try again... 02:57:03 -!- timchen1` [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:57:10 timchen1` [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 02:59:18 prxq_ [n=mommer@e179202104.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 02:59:47 hi, if I want to (concatenate 'list '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3)) 03:00:04 is there a way to (concatenate 'list '(1 2 3) [two times]) 03:00:33 (let ((foo '(1 2 3))) (concatenate 'list foo foo)) ? 03:00:59 Yay. Back to ir2tran and down to 61 errors. ^_^ 03:01:01 nyef: sorry, concatenate x times, I have to do that but 12 times and I'd rather not type the var name 12 times 03:01:22 (loop for i below 12 appending '(1 2 3)) 03:01:37 thanks 03:01:56 loop rules 03:02:01 Umm... Unless appending is destructive, in which case find some other loop keyword or use copy-list. 03:02:23 nconc[ing] is destructive. 03:02:39 Is loop appending defined to use nconc? 03:02:39 (loop repeat 12 ...), also. 03:02:57 nyef: fairly certain appending uses APPEND. 03:03:10 Right. I so rarely need to loop for some number of times without also needing the iteration variable... 03:03:48 loop seems so powerful, but to know all the possibilities seems insane! 03:04:50 <_3b> Sikander: don't worry, eventually you'll learn it and realize it actually is much too limiting :p 03:05:00 dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 03:05:21 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:05:28 _3b: limiting?! !! Hmm, coming from C with for and while as only looping constructs, that seems, well, impossible 03:05:43 *nyef* hasn't found loop to be too limiting very often, and the cases when it has been he's gone with a hand-built state-machine in a TAGBODY. 03:06:23 adu [n=ajr@pool-173-66-14-108.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:26 <_3b> mostly little things like not being to append in finally (in O(1)) 03:07:05 <_3b> no generic sequence iteration is a big one though 03:07:30 <_3b> (admittedly some of the problems have implementation specific fixes) 03:07:34 *adu* <3 CL 03:07:48 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 03:07:51 Hrm. I'm coming closer to actually having to nail down calling conventions and whatnot. 03:07:58 _3b: isn't it possible to write a macro that determines what type the sequence is and then "Does the right thing"? 03:08:22 Sikander: combinatorial code explosion on the # of sequences. 03:08:40 Sikander: Hmmmm. 03:08:44 hum 03:09:01 pkhuong: ok, that seems no good. 03:09:11 <_3b> right, i mean run-time checks, so macro doesn't help 03:09:14 Especially if the sequence type can't be determined at compile-time, or if you're restricted to portable macros... 03:09:44 herbieB: any ideas? 03:09:49 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 03:09:56 Sikander: Yeah. 03:09:56 there's alexandria's with-sequence-iterator. 03:10:21 Sikander: DOes mcclim have any dependencies? 03:10:21 herbieB: Would you by any chance be using Python < 2.6? 03:10:27 pkhuong: How well does it work with Xof's extensible sequences? 03:10:48 herbieB: yes 03:11:07 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051174150.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:11:08 nyef: I believe it does. 03:11:14 Sikander: I am usign 2.6. I think the problem will lie int he symbol list for mcclim. 03:11:18 herbieB: asdf dependencies are flexichain, clx 03:11:35 herbieB: I was asking because of the os.popen4. I replaced it with subprocess 03:11:50 herbieB: so the python version number was a different issue 03:12:44 Sikander: Ah, yeah, I was trying to support earlier versions of python :) 03:13:03 Sikander: And the popen part was so small. 03:13:03 ah... Darn, I thought the error message was annoying 03:13:11 makes sensse 03:13:13 sense 03:13:53 herbieB: so, regarding dependencies. There are a few, yes 03:14:01 Sikander: Yeah, I got them :) 03:14:12 does #nekthuth exist? 03:14:23 Yep :) 03:15:37 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-23-253.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 03:19:47 -!- klapaucjusz [n=jch@lanthane.pps.jussieu.fr] has quit ["leaving"] 03:22:54 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 03:26:01 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:26:04 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:39 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:27:41 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:32:21 There we go, arm port log updated and git tree pushed. I feel productive again. 03:32:47 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:26 I also feel like I should be abed. 03:33:29 -!- nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 03:33:35 importantshock [n=importan@c-24-6-159-81.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:51 Ok, weird question of thed ay. 03:33:56 How would someone define the symbol " 03:34:28 Just drop that from the read table before defining it? 03:34:34 You'd quote it as \" or |"| 03:36:26 herbieB: why do you want to do that O.o 03:38:03 Ralith: Good question, why does mcclim or some package mcclim depends on do that? 03:38:47 Ralith: keyword:\" 03:38:52 O.o 03:40:08 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 03:41:20 joshtegart [n=joshtega@cpe-70-95-242-60.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:41:30 anybody care to answer a slime question? 03:42:35 -!- joshtegart [n=joshtega@cpe-70-95-242-60.san.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 03:42:41 Best way to find out is to just ask the question. 03:43:01 I want to execute CL forms from an elisp script. I've tried SLIME-EVAL and SLIME-EVAL-PRINT but both cause errors when I execute them. IS there another way? 03:43:29 so something like (slime-eval '(list-all-packages)) 03:44:13 the thing I'm actually trying to do is make script to start emacs and then (slime) and then asdf load my server app 03:44:38 I want to launch this script inside of screen on linux startup 03:44:44 anfairch: you send strings to swank, not elisp forms. 03:44:57 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:26 so (slime-eval "(print 'hello)") 03:45:41 ? 03:45:53 let me try that 03:47:19 ok, thanks, works now! 03:50:27 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.129.94] has joined #lisp 03:50:54 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:54:57 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 03:55:01 if I have (1 2 3) and (nil t nil) what's a nice way to overlay the nil/t list onto (1 2 3) to obtain (nil 2 nil) keep the val if t in the 2nd list, nil if nil 03:57:07 (mapcar #'(lambda (x y) (if x y)) '(nil t nil) '(1 2 3)) -> (nil 2 nil) 03:57:12 There are probably other ways. 03:57:13 (mapcar (lambda (a b) (when b a)) '(1 2 3) '(() t ())) 03:57:13 (NIL 2 NIL) 03:57:20 rtoym: Phoodus: thanks 03:58:54 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:01 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:01:50 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 04:04:56 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:30 Actually, it's not the symbol \", it's the one: \\ 04:08:39 Fun times. 04:09:26 one reason one might end up with such a symbol is if it's being generated for other purposes 04:09:58 for example, using symbols where you could otherwise use strings so as to have the benefit of interning (cheap comparisons, value/plist fields) 04:10:43 deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has joined #lisp 04:11:18 I'm sure there are very good reasons :) But python doesn't care for evalling it and I didn't think it would actually be done :) 04:11:25 Simple enough fix though. 04:12:42 Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:12:51 anyone tried lisp on gvim? 04:13:03 on windows that is 04:13:36 I have not tried to boot up nekthuth on windows, but given that windows gvim does not come with python support unless you compile it through cygwin, I'm guessing it wouldn't go so hot. 04:13:56 Or do you just mean editing a lisp file? I assume that would work fine. 04:14:54 it says slimv would autodetect clisp.exe and python 04:15:25 don't know how to start it! is there any command like M-x slime or something? 04:15:29 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-211.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 04:19:05 you with me herbieB? 04:19:40 http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2531 04:19:50 -!- deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has quit [] 04:20:24 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 04:20:41 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:20:42 No clue :) 04:20:44 Never used slimv :) 04:21:22 slimv?! wow... 04:21:29 try it man you might like it :-D 04:22:01 Interesting. 04:23:27 well, I have to admit, slimv looks interesting 04:25:13 Sikander: can you tell me bud how to start this slimv? 04:25:17 dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-198-84.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:44 -!- dto`` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:25:55 Bigshot_: I don't know, I just saw it when you pointed it out! Lemme have a look... 04:26:19 ya 04:28:19 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 04:30:43 Bigshot_: did you install it? 04:30:47 yeah 04:30:56 gvim + slimv 04:30:59 + python 04:32:08 are you willing to hack it Sikander? 04:32:27 Bigshot_: you should start editing a file with a lisp extension. Then slimv will automatically load 04:32:56 i already opened a file with lisp extension and it does get highlighted but no compiling 04:32:58 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:06 then, type some sexp like (+ 1 2) and in vim command mode, type ,e 04:33:18 -!- importantshock [n=importan@c-24-6-159-81.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:33:19 This will evaluate the last sexp 04:34:13 If you want to know more, you should read the documentation 04:35:00 ok it started 04:35:49 Bigshot_: what you have to do is in command mode type :helptag .vim/doc where .vim is your runtime config directory 04:35:54 Bigshot_: then you can do :help slimv 04:36:34 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068210006.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:36:52 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.129.94] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:38:25 -!- ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:39:07 Sikander: when i type "shift-:" nothing happens 04:39:26 it just prints the char ":" 04:39:47 what to do so that i accepts the shift-":" 04:40:24 Bigshot_: Are you new to vim? 04:40:56 yeah ;-) nvm i'll just dig the docs but just to get started 04:41:03 Bigshot_: btw maybe we should take this discussion elsewhere... 04:41:12 ok 04:41:43 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:25 -!- dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-198-84.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:47:47 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:48:15 evening 04:56:03 hello slyrus 04:56:24 dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-198-84.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:58 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:59:54 herbieB: do you know how to change the syntax highlighting in lisp on emacs in slime? 05:00:17 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:01:09 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 05:02:31 Bigshot_: herbieB is also a vim junkie 05:02:54 Bigshot_: aside from the fact that he's already asleep, I doubt he could help you 05:03:17 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:03:33 Bigshot_: you should try #emacs or so 05:03:41 yeah i am there 05:04:17 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:06 good luck 05:11:49 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:17:30 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-197-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:28 Axioplas1 [n=Axioplas@130.34.188.206] has joined #lisp 05:24:36 i came across this color theme http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=color-theme+slime&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&oq= does anyone know where to put it? 05:24:51 first link 05:25:11 http://edward.oconnor.cx/config/elisp/color-theme-hober2.el 05:25:15 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:21 (load ...) it from init.el? 05:25:55 how to do that Phoodus? 05:26:25 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off for a while"] 05:26:33 open up init.el and put a (load ...) command in it? 05:26:41 then save 05:26:46 then restart emacs 05:27:04 I'm not 100% sure, but that seems to be the first thing to try 05:27:10 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-5-102.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 05:28:02 hmm, slime loads with a push to load-path, then calls require instead of load 05:28:25 at least the way it's set up in my init.el 05:28:30 -!- dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-198-84.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:28:58 Axioplas2 [n=Axioplas@130.34.188.206] has joined #lisp 05:28:58 -!- Axioplas1 [n=Axioplas@130.34.188.206] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:29:25 Any clim experts? If I have some data (say a list) and make a presentation for it, does the presentation automatically update when I modify the data (destructively)? Or do I need *shudder* cells for something like that? 05:30:23 Phoodus: how to open init.el :| 05:30:29 I'm trying to run this in sbcl but instead of allowing me to step throught the steps, it only spits on the answer: (step (+ (* 3 4) (/ 5 2))) 05:30:37 it should be in your home directory 05:30:45 Anyone knows how to get the debugger to step through? 05:30:48 Buffers -> Edit Init File from xemacs 05:31:14 *Sikander* suspects that he needs to use the accept method to do the magic, but doesn't understand that method yet. 05:32:11 rdad: sbcl compiles repl statements before executing them; it probably optimizes the math out to just a constant 05:32:37 I see. I will try to undo the optimize 05:32:44 Phoodus: i am using GNUEmacsClient can't find my init.el 05:33:01 Bigshot_: You probably need to do some rtfm then to see what it wants 05:33:15 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-41-32.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:33:23 -!- mrsolo_ is now known as mrsolo 05:34:34 willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 05:34:36 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:40:16 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:40:26 -!- Axioplas2 [n=Axioplas@130.34.188.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:40:37 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 05:40:53 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 05:52:04 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:52:17 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 05:52:36 ok, announcing Boston Lisp meeting on every lisp mailing list in existance -- that I can understand. but why BostonHaskell? 05:56:05 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:56:37 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:57:20 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:57:32 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:42 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 05:58:03 -!- KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-10-125.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [] 05:58:13 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-10-125.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:18 -!- gzip4 [n=xxx@78.108.73.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:01:47 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 06:01:52 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 06:02:31 dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 06:06:00 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Client Quit] 06:06:59 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:09:21 cmm: I'd say that there's a certain amount of sharing between Haskell and Lisp communities, including apparently sharing of events. 06:09:42 now, if someone announced a Java meeting on haskell maillist... 06:09:48 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.241.93] has joined #lisp 06:10:04 no, a visual basic meeting on the haskell list ;) 06:12:33 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:13:00 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:13:14 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 06:13:42 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:14:00 splittist [n=dmurray@241-35.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:14:03 morning 06:14:49 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 06:15:00 morning mr split. are you in geneva nowadays? I'm heading over to visit jsnell in a couple of weeks, would be fun to grab a beer if you're at leisure to do so :) 06:18:12 lukego: I am. It would. I will make time.* [* Restrictions apply.] 06:19:25 lukego: what are you putting on your immigration forms as 'profession' these days? 06:19:50 lukego@laptop.org, apprentice Forth firmware programmer 06:20:18 how's your french? 06:20:37 OLPC is still going? I thought it was all twitter revolutions this week? 06:21:51 OLPC's hype is well past its peak but they're doing quite well in actual units shipped. I'm helping with the "XO 1.5" - same design but replacing a bunch of components based on changes in cpu / ram / flash / etc technology since the first one 06:22:19 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 06:22:22 lukego: French not bad, except for the speaking part. 06:22:49 lukego: Interesting. And you're enjoying life further down the stack? 06:23:07 yes. I'm trying to work my way further down to Verilog etc, but one step at a time. 06:23:11 plage [n=user@118.68.34.65] has joined #lisp 06:23:16 Good afternoon! 06:24:07 lukego: you ARE Chuck Moore reborn! 06:24:38 but he would consider Verilog heinously over-engineered and far from the real gates :) 06:25:14 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:25:25 my Forth role model is Mitch Bradley who's doing the OLPC firmware, who was an early guy at Sun and wrote their Openboot (direct ancestor of the olpc firmware) 06:25:27 lukego: well I naturally assumed you'd be writing OKAD 1.5 06:25:51 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@130.34.188.206] has joined #lisp 06:25:53 you probably know more about Moore stuff that I do - I am scared of that guy and his ideas :) 06:26:06 I wish I had my OLPC here, so that I could do some work outside. 06:26:21 Does any other laptop have a monitor that you can read outside? 06:26:29 ahaas: macbook LED backlit displays are visible pretty much anywhere I find 06:26:52 Great! I actually have one of those (if that's what the 13" macbooks are) 06:27:08 just crank the brightness to max :) 06:27:21 Tomorrow I work outside! 06:27:22 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.244.48] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:27:36 *slyrus* wants a new laptop 06:27:45 I don't think the black or white 13" macbooks have it, only the silver ones 06:28:22 splittist: do you know hackers in geneva btw or living for eclm etc? 06:28:38 drats. I will gank my wife's pro then (i mean -- it's silver) 06:28:41 switzerland is meant to be a bit of a smalltalk outpost but I don't know how sociable those guys are 06:28:55 only silver things released in the past year or two at that. :) 06:29:05 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 06:29:09 it's 2 months old 06:29:23 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 06:29:25 lukego: I haven't really looked into that, yet. I hear rumours that a bunch of folks up at CERN use lisp. 06:29:35 *lukego* <- extremely happy to have bought an Air the moment it was released. more than a year later and still no other machine I want instead :) 06:30:44 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:13 I did look briefly at some Open Source group that had a program of events, but they seemed to take themselves very seriously. 06:31:20 splittist: their website contains some stale "how to use Lisp at our lab" wiki 06:31:42 not long 'til eclm anyway. hoping to make that this year 06:31:43 tcr, memo from plage: I got an answer from John Zinky at BBN who seems to think that BBN might be willing to make SpyGlass open source. He is asking who is going to help out with the port to McCLIM. What should I tell him? 06:32:15 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:32:53 plage: Huh, how cool! 06:33:02 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@130.34.188.206] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:33:12 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 06:33:16 plage: At the time you wrote that memo, did you discuss this already? 06:33:31 tcr: With others? No? 06:33:37 No! I mean 06:35:23 asksol [n=ask@195.242.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 06:35:55 -!- spec`away is now known as mrSpec 06:36:06 ayrnieu [n=julian@174-149-4-17.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:07 morning 06:36:12 hello mrSpec 06:36:21 plage: Ah ok, well I find it that intriguing that it would make me want to learn Clim. Do you think you could get your department to hire a student for this? 06:36:38 tcr: unlikely 06:36:54 -!- Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060215]"] 06:37:36 tcr: I am not so worried about the McCLIM part of the port, because I know a little about McCLIM. But I know next to nothing about the application domain. 06:38:22 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.65.80] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:38:30 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.64.170] has joined #lisp 06:38:59 Well then the only possible answer is the "contemporary Lisp open source world", isn't it? 06:39:17 I don't either but I want to learn! 06:41:28 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 06:42:59 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 06:43:10 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.64.170] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:43:16 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:43:28 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Time to die... eh, sleep..."] 06:44:17 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.133.188] has joined #lisp 06:45:15 plage: Gotta go to the university. See you later. 06:45:18 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:45:23 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:46:40 ahaas: on 13" macbooks... don't get one of those newest that have capped SATA :> 06:47:24 p_l: I'm not sure what we have. We got the cheapest one from two years ago. It was never intended to be used for much more than video ichat. 06:47:40 But now it's my primary workstation! 06:48:40 ahaas: oh, then you won't have this. It's in the newest models - they apparently wanted to get some premium on SSDs - you didn't buy your macbook with SSD from Apple, you got SATA capped so any SSD you put in won't beat a normal drive 06:48:48 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:48:58 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 06:50:11 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:51:12 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 06:51:36 ejs [n=eugen@176-106-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:19 plage: speaking of clim, filename completion is still busted in mcclim/sbcl 06:53:06 that is, even given nikodemus' recent changes, which make things better, doing completion on foo.l won't find foo.lisp 06:53:08 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:53:21 -!- asksol [n=ask@195.242.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:53:56 the problem is that in foo.l*.* the *.* is interpreted differently than in foo*.* 06:54:55 incidentally some years ago I wrote some lisp code related to packet traces and mcclim - http://lukego.livejournal.com/4993.html - in case anybody has a use 06:55:34 ASau [n=user@host81-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:55:54 nothing really useful or fancy like spyglass 06:56:51 -!- adu [n=ajr@pool-173-66-14-108.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:56:54 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:10 sreeram_ [n=sreeram@122.174.71.67] has joined #lisp 06:57:21 lukego: what's spyglass ? 06:57:22 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:57:25 What's the use-case for a Spyglass type app? 06:57:34 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 06:57:52 I only know spyglass by screenshot - http://www.dist-systems.bbn.com/tech/spyglass/ 06:58:00 splittist: network debugging and possibly reverse engineering not to mention various *hat-related stuff :) 06:58:27 my usecase was http://lukego.livejournal.com/1612.html 06:59:20 dv___ [n=dv@85-127-104-22.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:59:48 -!- dv___ is now known as dv_ 07:01:27 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 07:03:43 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-99-29.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:04:18 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 07:04:28 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.133.188] has quit [Success] 07:04:53 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-5-102.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:04:56 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:05:06 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.230.219] has joined #lisp 07:05:24 i thought spyglass was the precursor to mosaic 07:06:23 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:06:47 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-15-16.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:08:45 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:12:08 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:14:18 -!- sreeram_ [n=sreeram@122.174.71.67] has quit [] 07:14:26 sebaseba [n=carnieri@201.21.179.211] has joined #lisp 07:15:21 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:16:27 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:16:54 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:19:01 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:23:11 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has left #lisp 07:23:27 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:26:55 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 07:27:47 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:28:26 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:29:23 -!- ejs [n=eugen@176-106-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:30:17 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 07:32:03 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:36:49 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-9-120.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:20 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 07:39:24 tombom [i=tombom@82.12.17.99] has joined #lisp 07:39:28 mega1 [n=mega@pool-05229.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:40:20 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-56.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Success] 07:40:34 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 07:41:39 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-148.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:42:12 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 07:42:39 ayrnieu_ [n=julian@70-2-153-174.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:37 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:44:06 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@174-149-4-17.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:44:32 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 07:45:12 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-10-125.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:45:15 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:46:05 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:46:19 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:53:04 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:53:12 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:56:15 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:57:40 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 07:57:48 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:00:07 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:02:21 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.134.232] has joined #lisp 08:05:29 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-132-8-72.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:11:52 kiuma [n=kiuma@proxy.emea.fedex.com] has joined #lisp 08:12:10 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:12:22 hoy 08:13:46 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:14:01 ayrnieu [n=julian@68-240-49-49.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:05 -!- ayrnieu_ [n=julian@70-2-153-174.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:14:06 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:14:14 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.241.93] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:16:24 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@68-240-49-49.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:17:42 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 08:21:30 sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:30 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:21:45 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 08:23:36 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq 08:28:35 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-148.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:29:25 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-187.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:29:38 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:30:03 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:32:32 wedgeV_ [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 08:36:02 rstandy [n=rastandy@host89-142-static.5-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:39:56 aquateen [n=chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:36 loxs [n=loxs@79-100-160-18.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 08:40:53 frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 08:41:43 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [] 08:41:49 -!- loxs [n=loxs@79-100-160-18.btc-net.bg] has quit [Client Quit] 08:44:01 -!- rdad [n=rdad@cpe-67-247-62-86.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 08:47:25 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Success] 08:49:45 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 08:51:45 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 08:52:03 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-5916.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 08:53:32 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:32 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 08:58:15 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:00:38 Reav_ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 09:00:50 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:04:36 -!- sebaseba [n=carnieri@201.21.179.211] has quit [] 09:10:18 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:10:18 Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:10:27 morning 09:10:31 -!- bdowning_ is now known as bdowning 09:12:21 has any body gotten hunchentoot to run on port 80 i got a ubuntu server with nothing runnning on port 80 currently and i get permission denied in socket bind...running as root...the ubuntu forum guys asre stumped aswell...maybe some one here has runn into the problem aswell 09:14:07 if you try to listen on port 80 (using netcat, etc.) do you get the same error ? 09:14:59 well netstat does not show anything om port 80 but let me try netcat ...sorry not linux fundy 09:15:49 Harag: OTOH, can you also issue "nc -l -p 80"? 09:17:20 normally ordinary people cannot listet to ports with numbers below 1024 or so 09:17:27 only superusers can 09:17:36 Harag: Perhaps it drops privileges before binding to a port. 09:17:49 Harag: Non-root users cannot bind to ports <=1024. 09:17:50 Harag: see what missing a dot, space and a capital do? 09:18:21 vy what is nc suppose to output? 09:18:25 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 09:18:35 Nothing. 09:18:42 Try netstat -ntulp. 09:18:47 And look for :80 09:18:52 If it issues "Can't grab 0.0.0.0:80 with bind : Permission denied" then somebody already has the port. 09:19:09 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 09:19:24 telnet localhost 80 RET GET / RET RET 09:19:30 antoszka: 80 not to be found 09:20:05 Are you sure you're root. Sometimes we do su and type a wrong password, so we're still user. 09:20:14 dys` [n=andreas@p5B313ED4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:16 heh 09:20:36 in as root but running script to start screen session that runs sbcl... 09:20:49 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-5-135.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:21:21 good morning 09:21:22 Harag: In this case I suppose it's dropping privileges somewhere. 09:21:27 hello mvilleneuve 09:21:28 Harag: To a non-root user. 09:21:30 darn 09:22:19 only got 2 users...root and a sudo user so to what user is it dropping privilages ...some system user? 09:22:20 Harag: You could consider setting a reverse proxy anyway on port 80. Say apache. You get all the access controls, ipv6 and such. 09:22:54 Harag: This proxy would forward requests to your app listening on whatever port in the backround. 09:22:59 Or pound 09:22:59 yeah did not want to load apache its a vps server and memory is already at a premium 09:23:14 pound or lighttpd are small 09:23:32 plage: how is your stay in Vietnam going? 09:23:42 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@host89-142-static.5-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:23:59 on that subject...when I run SBCL on my desktop box it takes 55m of memory but on the vps server 500meg...anybody know what that is about ...is it becaus eht vps has no swop memmory? 09:23:59 lightpd isn't much smaller than apache in my experience. 09:24:17 But yeah, any lightweight proxying webserver should do. 09:24:30 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-1-250.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:25:03 Harag: how do you measure the memory consumption? 09:25:28 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:25:30 erm some linux command line 09:25:52 just thought the 2 would report the same ...same linux same sbcl 09:26:04 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B31709D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:27:10 that's disappointing if hunchentoot is not a viable http server by itself : 09:28:15 hrm my piece of code looks ugly 09:29:23 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:29:28 HET2 pasted "ugly code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82048 09:30:02 any comments on stupid things i've done are welcome 09:30:31 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 09:30:44 until (eq line nil) == while line 09:31:39 <_3b> loop keywords at end of previous line seem harder to read to me, too easy to miss 09:32:10 _3b: what do you mean 09:32:29 <_3b> put DO before the block, instead of at the end of the FOR clause for example 09:32:52 <_3b> so all of the loop control logic is nicely aligned at the left side of the LOOP 09:33:05 HET2: (sort word-vector (function string-greater-p) :key (function car)) 09:33:17 matimago: ah, interesting 09:34:04 <_3b> i'd also put UNTIL on a separate line from FOR for the same reason 09:34:28 dunno the for syntax is a c habit - for(bla blah) { 09:35:19 <_3b> (i'd also use more LOOP features instead of nesting complex forms like LET where possible too, but i don't misread that like i do the DO at end of line) 09:35:23 HET2: sometimes it's string-greaterp, sometimes it's string=; make up your mind! Is it case insensitive or sensitive? 09:36:18 plage: Fine so far, thanks! 09:36:24 er, mvilleneuve 09:36:35 matimago: yeah i guess you're right :) 09:36:47 Not good, talking to oneself. 09:36:53 plage, talking to yourself, first sign of madness 09:37:06 plage: at least you could try to talk to beach or spiagga... 09:37:14 heh :) 09:37:20 beach: hello! 09:37:23 plage: but then its a fine line been madness and genius, so it might not be all bad 09:37:23 no answer. 09:37:35 Guthur: That's what I was trying to tell myself. 09:37:36 Leave a message, he'll answer later :-) 09:37:51 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:37:53 clhs vector-pop 09:37:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_vec_po.htm 09:38:00 matimago: Nah, I'll give him a call. 09:38:24 beach [i=59ca9316@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2e482ddfb340c549] has joined #lisp 09:38:29 hello 09:38:32 hi plage 09:38:48 :-) 09:38:53 either of you guys seen spiaggia recently? 09:39:03 very funny! 09:39:34 -!- Reav_ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:39:44 is there something like repeat - until in the loop macro family? 09:39:51 spiaggia [i=59ca9316@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d7bd2a18c0fcd695] has joined #lisp 09:39:52 HET2: yes. 09:40:05 splittist: what's up ? 09:40:06 HET2: (eq x nil) is better written (null x) 09:40:12 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-5-135.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 09:40:20 spiaggia: too much work, too little motivation 09:40:23 (loop repeat 100 for i from 0 until (zerop (mod i 5)) finally (return i)) 09:40:46 plage: event more: until (eq x nil) is better written while x 09:40:53 Reav_ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 09:41:04 matimago: that evaluates the for clause before the until clause though 09:41:05 HET2: is there a reason you refer to the fill-pointer rather than length? 09:41:33 splittist: uhm no 09:41:42 HET2: yes, since until refers to a variable defined in for. But you could write an until before for. 09:41:51 ah, interesting 09:42:41 kuwabara: that is not necessarily true. It is considered bad style to use x as a boolean if it also contains other values that are useful. 09:43:00 HET2: (> x 0) is written (plusp x) and (eql x 0) is written (zerop x) 09:43:08 <_3b> matimago: can you? i though all the for had to be at the beginning? 09:43:23 plage: thanks 09:43:30 No problem. 09:43:39 Arr! Well, I'm using a lenient implementation of LOOP, so it's possible you're right. 09:43:51 hmm, this discussion looks very familiar 09:44:08 HET2: indeed, why are you using a vector instead of a list? Testing for an empty list is often cleaner than testing for an empty vector. 09:44:12 Rigth: WARNING: LOOP: FOR clauses should occur before the loop's main body ; but it still work... 09:44:21 matimago: FOR is a variable clause, all of which must appear before the main clauses. 09:44:49 Indeed. 09:45:05 splittist: isn't sorting of a vector more efficient than sorting a list 09:45:43 plage: (zerop x) is more like (progn (check-type x number) (equalp x 0)) 09:45:56 HET2: the implementation may use a temporary vector internally, if it hasn't an efficient list sort. 09:46:34 matimago: you mean it'd copy the list into a vector, sort and copy back? 09:46:41 spiaggia: or just (= x 0)? 09:46:57 i suppose using a vector to begin with when i don't really need a list is easier then 09:47:01 HET2: and not only is WORD-LIST shorter than WORD-VECTOR (although WORDS is even shorter) but POP is shorter than VECTOR-POP (: 09:47:26 splittist: how is pop shorter than vector-pop 09:47:41 HET2: in characters typed 09:47:44 oh 09:48:13 aquateen [n=chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:48:15 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:48:29 HET2: yes. 09:48:52 -!- beach [i=59ca9316@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2e482ddfb340c549] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 09:49:19 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 09:49:30 splittist: but if it mattered, word-list would be bigger, would take more storage than word-vector... 09:49:58 HET2: Your implementation is likely to have all manner of mind-bending code to make sorting efficient. And if you're reading and writing to disk, then almost anything you do in memory is irrelevant. (waves hands) 09:50:54 -!- spiaggia [i=59ca9316@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d7bd2a18c0fcd695] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 09:51:18 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:52:12 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Client Quit] 09:52:37 splittist: erm i am expecting this function to be called about 2700000 times 09:53:18 Adlai [n=Adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 09:53:22 You're opening 2,700,000 * 2 files? 09:53:51 splittist: i know... before it was a database 09:55:26 depending on the profile of the function i'll try accumulating more results before writing back 09:55:35 HET2: All I'm saying is that for me, iterating forward through a list is clearer than iterating backward down a vector. The final loop becomes (LOOP for new-entry in words do (format stream-tmp "..." new-entry)), for example. 09:56:22 all i'm saying that 0.001 more running time in the function translates to 3/4 of an hour longer runtime 09:56:32 i'd use (dolist (new-entry words) (format stream "..")) 09:56:40 but i guess when considering that the whole thign will run for a week or so it's ok 09:57:32 the other thing is that i am producing the vector from a hash 09:57:32 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.220.33.218] has joined #lisp 09:57:46 and with alexandria i can have a list automagically 09:57:55 instead of maphashing stuff 09:57:57 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-5916.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:58:09 but think of all the conses 09:58:20 every time you cons god kills a kitten - or so it goes 09:58:28 HET2: think of the GC (: 09:58:37 the gc? 09:58:45 HET2: don't let lukego let you say that 09:58:46 garbage collector 09:59:01 antoszka: i know but think what of the garbage collector? :) 09:59:11 Think of it ;) 09:59:37 don't think of the conses, think of the gc handling it all for you 09:59:53 handling what for me? 10:00:24 protecting kittens from god. 10:00:39 the only thing i can think of is that collecting a couple of tens of thousand dead conses takes a lot longer than collecting one vector 10:02:56 cleaning the slaughterhouse 10:05:00 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-85.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:05:12 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-5916.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 10:05:42 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@99.226.7.145] has quit ["leaving"] 10:06:38 HET2: well, if it's short-lived a copying GC won't touch those conses at all. 10:06:48 s/it's/they're 10:08:14 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-197-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:08:20 dto [n=user@98.118.1.212] has joined #lisp 10:09:12 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:13 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@82.125.228.135] has joined #lisp 10:10:49 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-5916.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:11:02 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:11:14 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:12:34 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-28-26.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:16:32 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 10:17:40 ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 10:20:47 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-21-190.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:22:22 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [] 10:24:04 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:24:39 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 10:27:49 VityokOr` [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 10:29:40 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:30:26 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:31:52 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:00 ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 10:33:16 tvaalen [n=tvaal@unaffiliated/tvaal] has joined #lisp 10:35:28 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-89-178.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:41:23 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:41:58 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:44:47 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 10:47:57 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-104-22.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:52:03 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 10:52:37 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-21-190.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:58:46 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [] 11:00:15 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-1-250.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 11:03:52 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:04:08 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 11:04:27 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 11:07:19 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-97.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:09:14 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.230.219] has quit ["Log this!"] 11:09:41 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.230.219] has joined #lisp 11:14:36 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:14:54 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 11:15:39 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit [Client Quit] 11:15:43 http://github.com/unya/linux-vm-analizer/tree/master <--- Some utility functions for dealing with linux memory usage data 11:15:53 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 11:17:25 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit [Client Quit] 11:18:55 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.230.219] has quit ["Actually, I think I'll Do The Reboot after all"] 11:19:11 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 11:21:04 come to think of it, that data might help with GC tuning 11:23:24 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:24:28 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:30:11 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 11:30:37 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.155.26] has joined #lisp 11:33:56 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-89-178.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:35:36 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 11:36:51 -!- sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:38:40 I'm confused about installing ASDF-install 11:39:02 The tutorial says to download it, and put the .lisp and .asd file into a new directory. 11:39:27 The download has a lot of files though and I'm not sure which ones the tutorial is referring to. 11:41:20 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:41:38 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 11:42:22 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 11:43:20 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit [Client Quit] 11:44:26 timor [n=martin@w4873.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 11:44:32 -!- timor [n=martin@w4873.dip.tu-dresden.de] has left #lisp 11:46:07 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 11:46:28 Fixed my own n00b question. nvm. 11:48:03 Adlai: You might be interested in clbuild... IMHO less of a hassle than asdf-install 11:48:31 minion: tell me about clbuild 11:48:31 Adlai: please see clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 11:49:02 p_l: thx, I'll check it out, but I also want to have ASDF-install around. 11:49:20 plage` [n=user@118.68.34.65] has joined #lisp 11:50:46 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.34.65] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:50:49 -!- plage` is now known as plage 11:53:25 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:57:19 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:00:22 pjb pasted "first steps with asdf and asdf-install" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82051 12:00:30 Adlai: have a look at this paste. 12:01:03 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:01:48 matimago: thx, although I just finished configuring it, restarted slime, and #+:asdf-install (print 'yay) works. 12:03:32 matimago: your paste has a walkthrough of getting a library. that'll be useful. thx 12:05:43 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:06:55 i'm just wrestling with this myself 12:07:27 asdf-install is quite a hassle :| 12:08:07 Guthur: it looks to me like a hassle to set up, but quite convenient once you've finished. 12:08:55 oh ya it looks very handy, its getting the darn thing to work is the trick like you say 12:09:06 Well, here's what I did: 12:09:19 I downloaded the tarball 12:09:28 check 12:09:54 Just extracted the directory containing all the .lisp files and the asdf-install.asd file, extracted that directory into ~/.asdf-install-dir/asdf-install/ 12:10:11 *p_l* dropped asdf-install despite having it installed without "trouble" 12:10:12 Maybe not the best place to put it, but it's out of the way in there. 12:10:26 i have it in /home 12:10:29 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-43.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 12:10:33 ok, doesn't make a difference. 12:10:46 Made a symlink to the .asd file in my registry 12:10:50 in other words: 12:11:09 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:11:14 cd .asdf-install-dir/systems/ 12:11:31 ln -s /home/adlai/.asdf-install-dir/asdf-install/asdf-install.asd 12:12:13 btw, I'm using Allegro, so I didn't have to worry about installing ASDF 12:12:34 ya done that, but when i went to compile it said - OPEN: file #1=#P"/usr/share/common-lisp/systems/defpackage.lisp" does not exist 12:12:50 ah wait 12:13:02 i think i made the wrong type of link 12:13:02 what command did you use to compile it? 12:13:05 ah 12:13:29 what do you mean? 12:13:35 that would explain loads of issues, i'm assuming the -s is important 12:13:51 lol probably... i'm guessing it's the "symbolic" part of a "symbolic link" 12:14:11 ya i was just doing ln 12:14:21 which may just be a shortcut 12:14:25 try with -s, let's see if it worked. 12:14:28 *works 12:14:39 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 12:16:43 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@241-35.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["on the move"] 12:18:51 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 12:20:12 well i just got it too compile, but i cheated 12:20:33 cheating is allowed when there are no rules :) 12:20:42 still couldn't get the system link to work, it kept looking in the systems folder for the lisp file 12:20:45 what did you do to get it to work 12:20:45 ? 12:21:00 i went to the asdf install directory and then opened emacs 12:21:20 ah wait, did you add the path to your "registry" to asdf:*central-registry*? 12:21:22 its going to fall to pieces i think 12:22:02 the systems folder should already be the central-registry 12:22:06 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@82.125.228.135] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 12:22:08 i thought 12:22:27 what's this "systems folder"? 12:22:42 usr/share/common-lisp/systems 12:22:43 i created a new one, so it couldn't have already been there 12:22:46 ah 12:22:53 lol, different lisp systems... 12:23:03 hhh isn't that always the way :p 12:23:25 my asdf:*central-registry* is currently set to ("~/.asdf-install-dir/systems/" *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS*) 12:23:29 i'll run with this for a bit and see what happens 12:23:58 i might try adding that as well 12:24:00 well just try adding the path to your systems folder, to your asdf:*central-registry* 12:24:02 yep. 12:24:16 do it in your lisp's init file, so it gets loaded every time. 12:24:22 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:24:37 sounds like a plan :) 12:25:15 *Adlai* is glad that one n00b can help another... :P 12:25:34 i have been lucky so far and got must of my packages through apt-get, but thats not going to get my the ones i want now :| 12:26:10 you've gotten lisp packages through apt-get? 12:26:18 indeed :) 12:26:30 is there a repository you need to add? 12:26:55 well actually they may have been through synaptic to be fair, can't remember if they were all that way 12:27:01 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:27:15 hm. I just searched "lisp" in synaptic... neato. 12:27:34 ya a lot of the major packages are there 12:28:14 but i need a few obscure ones now, thought i would have thought IEEE-Floats would be available :| 12:28:27 s/thought/though 12:29:36 Jasko [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:53 i'm not sure i want to use synaptic to get lisp packages, though. 12:30:14 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:30:30 I hope you have browsed http://cliki.net/ASDF and http://cliki.net/ASDF-Install, and read the tutorials, howtos and manuals! 12:30:44 I've been looking through them. 12:30:48 ok. 12:30:49 (and your paste) 12:32:40 adlai, i have had no problems what so ever with synaptic, but different implementations might not cope so well 12:33:16 well, for one, it doesn't seem to have Drakma, which i'm gonna need for my current project 12:35:35 borism [n=boris@195-50-200-5-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 12:37:15 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:38:04 does clbuild have Drakma? 12:38:28 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 12:38:53 plage: yes 12:39:27 Then, clbuild might be the way to go. 12:42:37 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:43:34 ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@87.115.20.62.plusnet.pcl-ag01.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:29 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 12:44:32 -!- Lectus_ [n=Frederic@189.105.25.169] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:45:01 -!- Reav_ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:48:56 Is it a good idea to gpg --import all the keys from common-lisp.net/keyring.asc? 12:49:14 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 12:49:18 well the package i tried through asdf-install just gave me a 404 error :| 12:52:51 Adlai: it's not too bad and idea. The best would be to go to some conference and make a big key signing party. 12:53:04 some _lisp_ conference... 12:53:09 Reav_ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 12:53:42 I actually was on the verge of going to ELS '09 -- I "discovered" lisp about a month before 12:54:18 but it was too much of a new thing to be worth the trip. I kinda regret not going now, though :| 12:54:27 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181146241.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:55:44 Next year in Lisboa! :-) 12:56:23 when will it be? 12:58:18 I assume it'll be posted as soon as known on: http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/ 12:58:43 Adlai: roughly the same time as this one. 13:03:51 argh, yes 13:03:55 must start organizing 13:04:38 c|mell [n=cmell@p28062-ipngn601marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:04:41 Xof: how unfrench of you. We only start thinking about those things a few weeks in advance. 13:05:07 mm 13:05:24 Though, I guess the program committee must be a bit more organized than that. 13:05:32 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 13:05:48 Xof: So how are you doing these days? 13:06:09 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:19 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068210006.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:26 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:06:36 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-43.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 13:07:07 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 13:09:33 plage: OK. We finished off the undergrads yesterday 13:10:57 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:37 asdf-install is sticking a .asc on the end of the package url, is this normal, it of course can't find it when it does it 13:12:42 still no time for Actual Research, though; too busy trying to find money to keep current researchers on 13:12:52 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:54 Guthur: that's for the package signature 13:13:58 dlowe so it should work, its just i get a 404, but i know the file is there i can see it 13:14:33 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6CFF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:59 Guthur: the .asc file? 13:17:40 dlowe no the tar.gz 13:18:21 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 13:18:27 I am thinking I don't like asdf-install much :| 13:18:31 Xof: is the crisis impacting research budgets already? 13:18:39 mrdodge [n=user@cm110.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:18:51 nikodemus: +mechanism form inter-thread communication." 13:18:53 you mean "for" 13:19:00 Guthur: asdf-install tries to retrieve two files. The tarball and the cryptographic signature 13:19:12 matimago: to an extent -- it's making e.g. commercial/industry partners extremely cautious 13:19:12 Guthur: which package are you trying to install? I got that problem with one package, so I just got it manually... 13:19:19 it hasn't hit public funding yet, but there's no doubt that it will 13:19:21 Guthur: all the others work beautifully. 13:19:33 matimago, i know i asked my local university about funding for study not so long ago and the guy said they were having trouble finding funding for anything 13:20:07 adlai asn.1 13:20:26 it is part of a larger package 13:20:48 cl-net-smtp, i should maybe try getting the full package 13:20:50 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:22:18 ok that got further but now i am getting - MAKE-STRING-INPUT-STREAM: argument NIL is not a string 13:22:35 anyone seen that before, sorry for horribly mundane questions :| 13:22:51 Guthur: read further. 13:23:26 matimago : into the trace? 13:23:49 below, it should give you some choices. "restarts" they're called. 13:23:55 or have a look again at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82051 13:24:03 ah there is an install anyway 13:24:09 doh 13:24:29 Yes, the error message is not too meaningful... 13:25:10 great, i think that sorted it, its just a unix permission error now, need to run as root presumably, cheers 13:25:32 note to self read the options they might be useful :p 13:26:08 alinp1 [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 13:26:55 -!- alinp1 [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit [Client Quit] 13:27:08 hi - is there anyone who has any experience with CL-PDF. I am trying to instll it and have a character conversion error 13:27:09 alinp1 [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 13:27:37 -!- alinp1 [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit [Client Quit] 13:28:10 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087D1DF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:16 mrdodge: disable compression. 13:28:34 (I don't have any experience with cl-pdf) 13:28:51 alinp1 [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 13:28:55 -!- alinp1 [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:29:39 how do i disable compression? New to IRC 13:29:48 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-187.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:29:57 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [] 13:30:07 mrdodge: new to cl-pdf you mean :-) 13:30:24 Xof: thanks 13:30:45 and yes 13:30:51 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:30:58 ah - I see what you mean 13:30:59 ok I'll try that 13:31:16 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:31:36 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 13:31:37 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 13:32:13 mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 13:32:14 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068210006.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:32:24 merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has joined #lisp 13:35:13 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:37:25 -!- birdsbite [n=user@74.196.9.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:38:20 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:39:37 -!- mrdodge [n=user@cm110.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:44:51 -!- wormilwork [n=Miranda@adsl-070-155-056-058.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org"] 13:46:11 minion: memo for mrdodge: you must control your encodings. The way to do it depend on the implementation. Apart from special variables to define default encodings, you should be able to specify it per file, giving a specific :external-format option to open / with-open-file. 13:46:11 Remembered. I'll tell mrdodge when he/she/it next speaks. 13:47:53 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:48:39 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:20 nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:37 mrdodge [n=user@cm110.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:51:27 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:33 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-128-146.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:52:03 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 13:52:44 G'morning all. 13:53:45 -!- Reav_ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Success] 13:53:52 gmorning 13:54:56 m4dnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 13:55:06 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:56:01 -!- gmlk [n=gmlk@alicia.demon.nl] has quit [] 13:56:24 -!- jlf [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:56:38 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["So far so good wrt Drakma"] 13:56:58 nikodemus: here? 13:58:52 nikodemus: 1.0.29.14 (allocation-information) touches early-source-locations.lisp and source-locations.lisp inserting a BREAK into some function definitions. Is that stale debugging code, too? 14:03:47 yes 14:03:50 grr 14:03:59 thanks for the heads-up 14:04:02 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-5-135.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:05:03 nikodemus: what's the third FIXME in stack-allocation about? 14:05:22 nikodemus: Or put differently, does ALLOCATION-INFORMATION does what its docstring says, or is the docstring too optimistic in some way? 14:07:40 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:08:51 objects allocated on the alien stack using WITH-ALIEN get :FOREIGN allocation currently 14:09:28 which is close enough to truth, since you definitely cannot reason about the lifetimes of :FOREIGN objects 14:09:43 -!- mrdodge [n=user@cm110.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:10:40 ditto for SB-VM::BINDING objects, if you somehow manage to get a hold of one 14:11:42 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 14:11:45 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:12:11 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:13 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:14:33 -!- willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:15:04 willb [n=wibenton@173.18.243.255] has joined #lisp 14:17:21 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-128-146.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:18:08 ruediger [n=ruediger@62.47.128.146] has joined #lisp 14:18:36 -!- raig [n=user@32.Red-79-150-112.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:19:45 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087D1DF.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 14:20:22 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:11 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 14:26:52 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:27:05 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-73-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:27:31 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:27:34 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-28-26.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:27:46 -!- sepult_ is now known as sepult 14:28:52 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:29:03 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:39 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.34.65] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:39:02 -!- jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:39:52 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.129.94] has joined #lisp 14:41:53 milanj [n=milan@91.150.101.55] has joined #lisp 14:43:22 -!- mega1 [n=mega@pool-05229.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:43:49 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.22] has joined #lisp 14:44:01 Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.10.45] has joined #lisp 14:45:07 -!- ausente [n=ebsjux@189-19-127-108.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit ["War doesn't determine who's right. War determines who's left. (www.cyberscript.org)"] 14:47:33 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:53 morning 14:48:43 Hello slyrus. 14:52:34 jlf [n=user@adsl-76-200-131-171.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:44 qbg [n=quickbas@74-33-17-137.dsl1.mond.mn.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:59 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:53:02 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:15 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 14:54:23 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:54:41 does storing compiler macro docstring in the compiler-macro-function object seem reasonable? 14:55:05 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@218.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:55:15 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.220.33.218] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:55:42 -!- jmbr_ is now known as jmbr 14:55:49 ... Why would a compiler-macro have a docstring, given that it is constrained to expand to a form with the same effect as the function the compiler-macro is named for? 14:56:16 *Fade* wonders if there are lisp options for S390 deployment 14:56:20 to eg. document the cases in which it can make a huge difference 14:56:33 I guess... 14:56:42 at any rate, there _is_ (documentation x 'compiler-macro), so... 14:56:47 nyef: So you don't have to look up the function for the docstring? 14:58:25 Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.162.158.150] has joined #lisp 14:58:40 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:59:14 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:00:39 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has quit ["leaving"] 15:01:10 dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 15:01:42 -!- Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:02:00 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:02:14 Fade: Install Linux on S390, and then compile ecl or clisp on it. 15:02:54 Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:03:23 jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:50 gcl also runs on GNU/Linux on s390. 15:04:29 yeah, I figured one of the C based lisps might be the only option. 15:04:30 *nyef* notes the horrible thought "I wonder what the s390 instruction set is like" running through his head. 15:04:55 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 15:05:08 (C'mon, you know you want to do a new SBCL port!) 15:05:26 =) 15:05:33 if it's anything like IBM360, you may not want to go there 15:05:35 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:05:49 or perhaps you may 15:05:57 What linux distribution runs on an S390? 15:06:17 360 is nice. looks like 680x0. 15:06:18 debian 15:06:19 Debian probably does. It's the kind of thing they'd do. 15:06:23 red hat 15:06:40 via yellow dof 15:06:45 *dog 15:07:06 I thought YDL was PPC? 15:07:13 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:28 Or is s390 POWER? 15:07:33 i think ibm used yellowdog as the basis for an s390 port. 15:07:46 -!- jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:07:48 it's power based iirc 15:08:12 If s390 is POWER, then porting SBCL might be a lot more feasable, given the PPC backend. 15:08:48 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:09:20 Guest95976 [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 15:09:32 -!- Guest95976 is now known as xristos 15:10:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_S390 15:10:56 hercules might even make the port tractable w/out any s390 frames. 15:13:08 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:13:59 -!- willb [n=wibenton@173.18.243.255] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:14:12 the wiki articles don't have much info on the z series processors. 15:14:31 Who uses mainframes? 15:15:22 there are plenty of companies who buy them but don't really need them 15:15:36 airline companies! 15:15:47 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.155.26] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:15:50 -!- Dave2 [i=Dave2@freenode/staff/dave2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:15:59 Dave2 [i=Dave2@freenode/staff/dave2] has joined #lisp 15:16:03 "surely we cannot run our payroll or inventory on a normal pc!" 15:16:31 airlines, banks, stock firms, web hosting 15:16:44 they have excellent aggregation characteristics wrt power/cooling 15:16:59 though it guess they can be forgiven since they are also living on top of terrible stacks of legacy software written for those mainframes 15:18:10 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@ip227.fa1-0-1.occ.iinet.com] has joined #lisp 15:18:40 Heh, speaking of legacy, the other day at the bank, the person was looking at my account through a character terminal on a Dell PC. It wouldn't surprise me if that was a mainframe. 15:19:07 I notice that in a lot of situations, the PC is basically just a dumb terminal. 15:19:43 But at least it lets the employee play Solitaire or browse the web when they're not busy. 15:19:54 The latter is dangerous, though. 15:21:11 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 15:21:18 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62.47.128.146] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:21:20 I have to deal with a credit union that still uses OS/2 as its teller terminal interface. 15:21:44 OS/2 Warp was kindof cool. 15:22:08 I didn't actually move from amigas to PCs until OS/2 hit v 2.1 15:22:30 before that, PCs just felt like toys. 15:22:42 programming on DOS was a joke. ;) 15:23:37 Yeah, I was a big Mac fan for a while, largely for the same reason. 15:23:56 At the same time, I did end up with a PC over that time period... 15:24:46 once X was bootstrapped on a PC running linux, I shifted to that and have stayed there since. 15:24:46 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:59 Mmm... Linux 0.99pl45. 15:25:07 :D 15:25:57 Virtually useless with a hercmono display, though. 15:26:07 although if commodore didn't implode I may have stayed there... my very fist personal unix machine was an amiga3000 running a commodore port of SysV. 15:26:08 p0a [n=emacs@athedsl-386957.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:26:15 Slackware 1.0 from infomagic here. 15:26:21 it shipped on a tape. 15:26:26 Ha! 15:26:39 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.247.79] has joined #lisp 15:26:41 I miss the 68k. 15:26:53 Yeah, the 68k was amazing. 15:27:01 my first linux box had to be assembled from sources by hand. lol 15:27:23 I was delighted when other people started doing that work for me. 15:27:49 When I had my a500-stuffed-in-a-minitower, I hacked a fair bit of 68k assy along with Aztec C. 15:28:03 I remember Aztec C! 15:28:09 ahhh. ancient history. ;) 15:28:51 Back in the paleozoic when giant mainframes roams the earth. 15:29:03 s/roams/roamed/ 15:29:23 *Fade* hearkens back to the day he first saw a lisp machine 15:29:34 they had a symbolics XL1200 at the UofT bookstore 15:29:36 In my case that was 1999. 15:29:52 saw my first NeXT slab the same day. 15:29:58 Same box, but it started having hard mem errors. What a waste of dosh. 15:30:12 xl1200 that is. 15:30:37 Does anyone know who owns OpenGenera now? 15:30:43 Symbolics 15:30:47 I thought the lisp machine was the wildest stuff ever, but my friends were unimpressed with the primarily textual interface. 15:30:53 "My mac is better than that!" 15:30:54 At least part of what made these systems amazing was the software, though... 15:31:05 I mean who is Symbolics now that Topper topped out. 15:31:17 or was that Topping? 15:31:29 At least it's not Giggles the Magical Clown. 15:31:30 well, symbolics.com still resolves. 15:31:40 probably david schmidt 15:31:44 (How Interlisp has fallen.) 15:31:48 but the page looks like "Bob's Bait and Tackle!" from 1994 15:32:09 Yep. I think that David and Reti were just employees. 15:32:48 My favorite thing about the symbolics website is the scanned adverts. 15:32:55 http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=http://www.symbolics.com 15:33:00 they run linux. ;) 15:33:49 Hmm... Maybe they have Parker's snap4 running OG underneath. ;-) 15:34:10 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 15:34:20 maybe it's just a proxy, and cl-http on genera is behind it 15:34:40 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Client Quit] 15:34:46 That'd be one way. 15:35:17 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.129.94] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:35:26 15:35:28 does anyone here perchance have the Canon Cat manual as a pdf? 15:35:41 Actually, the Medley (Interlisp) looks like Bob's car wash too. 15:35:58 s/looks/web page looks/ 15:37:01 caoliver: No, no... It looks like the page of Giggles the Magical Clown. 15:37:28 -!- xuanwu [n=xuanwu@hri.cogs.indiana.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:37:29 You mean the square dance stuff? 15:38:24 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:38:50 Actually I have a perhaps vain hope that most of the classic lisp worlds will be open source one of these days. We have many nice quick lisps for bare metal, and the main interest is historical. I don't know how many will pay multi-thousands for a history lesson though. 15:39:12 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-136-193.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:32 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:39:39 I still want a "hobby os"... something that you can actually tinker with 15:39:58 A lisp os has many of those qualities 15:40:00 a movitz based implementation of *lisp would be wicked. 15:40:00 I have a gen 8.3 cd around here somewhere from my old dead 1200. A, perhaps childish, fun thing is to grep oscenities in the source code. 15:40:03 merimus: And we've pointed you to two different bare-metal lisp systems in various states of completion. 15:40:10 Fade: Agree! 15:40:29 there's a *lisp emulator in the wild 15:40:29 What aside from Movitz? 15:40:33 nyef: yup, I'm reading thorugh movitz currently 15:40:35 caoliver: sbcl-os. 15:40:38 caoliver: My suspicion is that there are just enough people still willing to pay for opengenera to keep it closed. 15:40:55 Yuuhi [i=benni@84.131.208.221] has joined #lisp 15:41:07 so catch-22? to get the source we need to boycott it? 15:41:12 *tmh* has a strong feeling of deja vu. 15:41:13 Why do I think I can count those sponsors on my fingers and toes and not in binary. 15:41:15 ? 15:41:35 caoliver: You expect to need toes for that? 15:41:36 I think the NSA and NASA both license OG. 15:41:42 I was generous. 15:42:09 I think he meant hands and feet, not fingers and toes 15:42:24 As I recall Ron Garage (ne erran gat) was saying they are not much of a lisp sho0p these days. 15:42:53 Err. Ron Garret 15:43:17 I like Ron Garage though. Rather like Ford Prefect. 15:43:40 SBCL on bare metal would be wicked. 15:43:45 msaraujo [n=marcelo@189-015-233-185.xd-dynamic.ctbcnetsuper.com.br] has joined #lisp 15:43:47 hi 15:43:54 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.134.232] has quit [Success] 15:44:09 caoliver: The proof-of-concept is out there, take it and run with it if you want. 15:44:12 caoliver, it is :) ... does that make nyef evil? 15:44:14 what are the best lisp beginners book? 15:44:20 minion: pcl? 15:44:22 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 15:44:22 is sbcl-os anything more than a cultural mcguffin? 15:44:22 nikodemus: should I assume that the wildcard behavior we discussed the other day is going to stay as is for a while? I'd like to fix mcclim's filename completion to my liking but don't want to chase a moving target 15:44:33 minion: tell msaraujo about that-dead-sexy-book 15:44:33 or has work actually been done on it? 15:44:33 msaraujo: look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 15:44:36 Fade: I have screenshots! 15:44:52 thanks buddies 15:44:57 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [] 15:45:08 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:45:14 mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 15:45:15 nyef: share 15:45:36 speaking of mcclim's completion... one problem now is that it resolves symlinks, checks to see if the truename (or what comes back from directory anyway) matches the partial name, which it might not anymore, and then punts. not ideal, imo. 15:45:36 minion: gentle 15:45:36 I'd add PG's ACL though I don't care for his coding style. 15:45:41 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 15:45:50 msaraujo: this is more gentle, in case you have no previous programming experience 15:46:02 caoliver: what about his coding style? 15:46:09 stassats: I have a background, actually 15:46:20 minion: tell p0a about graham crackers 15:46:21 p0a: direct your attention towards graham crackers: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html 15:46:22 p0a: t fw vwls 15:46:24 Fade: http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-os/wip-screenshots/ 15:46:40 but no previous lisp skilss or even functional (sort of a newbie) 15:46:50 although I have played with haskell a long time ago 15:47:07 -!- blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:47:43 minion: picky 15:47:44 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``picky''. 15:47:50 is the code in an open repository? 15:47:56 I mean, stassats. TAke a look at http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/chap2-notes.html 15:48:18 p0a: I think he uses not the nicest var names and such. His prune in On Lisp runs about a dead heat with a straight forward recursive form, and his isn't as easy to write an inductive proof for. 15:48:24 what are the pros/cons of sbcl-os vs movitz? 15:48:25 Fade: Does http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/lispos/ count? 15:48:51 caoliver: I've never wrote a proof for a function 15:49:04 caoliver: though I've read about others doing it, for example norvig does this in his book PAIP 15:49:12 Sort of. :) 15:49:23 p0a: then you doyou know your functions terminate? 15:49:41 matimago: I can imagine -- I don't write a formal proof 15:49:47 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:49:56 p0a: what if you imagine wrong? 15:50:16 Programmers imagine wrong all the time. That's the difficulty. 15:50:18 I think you misunderstood. I didn't say that it is wrong to do so, I said that I *don't* do it, therefore I wouldn't know about it 15:50:28 :-) 15:50:38 matimago: That's ok, people write formal proofs wrong all the time, too. 15:50:48 that's easy, just write a program which proofs it for you 15:51:02 sellout: in fact, if people are wrong all the time then how do you know your sense of "wrong" is not wrong? 15:51:13 If people /can/ be wrong at any time 15:51:18 formal proofs? how much life critical code are we writing around here anyhow? 15:51:21 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 15:51:23 I'm getting a metacircular headache. 15:51:29 p0a: you need to feel you're right some times. 15:51:46 matimago: because? :-) 15:51:49 Even if everybody else seem to be wrong. 15:52:03 occam, people. 15:52:03 mega1 [n=mega@3e44a7c1.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 15:52:06 jebus. 15:52:15 Yay! We can slice people now! 15:52:31 What about those that do not value truthness more than falsehood? These people wouldn't need the reassurance of others because they wouldn't care for truth any more than falsity 15:52:39 Little known fact: Occam never shaved. 15:52:47 Heh! 15:52:51 Heh. I was just about to make a shaving joke, too. 15:53:08 Sure, how could he after having cut the knot with his razor? Totally destroyed it. 15:53:18 nikodemus: another semi-ridiculous use case. given /tmp/foo, /tmp/foo. and /tmp/foo.bar can I construct an arg to directory such that it finds /tmp/foo. and /tmp/foo.bar? 15:53:34 slyrus: not in a portable way. 15:54:13 You could get all files from /tmp/ and then filter them 15:54:25 nyef: you should put a sbcl-os tree up in git or darcs somewhere. 15:54:33 Git please. 15:54:40 (let ((files (get-files "/tmp/"))) (map nil #'filter files) files) 15:54:46 Je ne parle pas Darcs. 15:54:49 nikodemus: what was the motivation for the symbol-value-in-thread change? 15:54:54 If I ever feel the urge to hack sbcl-os again, I'll throw it into git. 15:54:57 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:00 Tnx. 15:55:05 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@ip227.fa1-0-1.occ.iinet.com] has quit [] 15:55:18 As unlikely as it seems to me at the present time. 15:55:34 Must be the end of the month again. Patches are flying into the SBCL repos. 15:56:07 Odd, isn't it? I'd have thought we'd be more likely to get many patches at the -beginning- of the month... 15:57:13 I thought 1.0.29 was going to break the 100commits/month barrier. 15:58:04 so how can I specify a pathname-name with wilds in it (in an unportable, sbcl-specific manner, if need be)? 15:58:23 slyrus: Go read PCL, there's chapters on it that build a pathname library 15:58:35 p0a: SBCL's behavior changed recently, so it might not work. 15:58:47 nyef: which might not work? 15:58:50 or just look at cl-fad 15:59:31 -!- jlf [n=user@adsl-76-200-131-171.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:59:35 -!- ASau [n=user@host81-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 15:59:36 p0a: Any specific suggestions from the book. 15:59:59 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:20 p0a: I'm not sure that helps. Yes, I can specify :wild as the name, but I'm not sure how I can get something like: # as the name 16:00:27 which is what I want... 16:00:41 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:01:43 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.42.247] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:01:51 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.214.238] has joined #lisp 16:02:07 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@ip227.fa1-0-1.occ.iinet.com] has joined #lisp 16:03:09 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:03:15 dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 16:04:10 slyrus pasted "better mcclim pathname completion for sbcl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82067 16:04:51 slyrus: you need to parse the namestring unless you want to user internals 16:05:32 -!- dys` is now known as dys 16:06:28 (make-pathname :name (pathname-name (parse-namestring "foo*")) ...) 16:06:29 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.170.16] has joined #lisp 16:06:46 ah, ok 16:06:56 i would not be averse to documenting and exporting pattern construction functions, though 16:07:12 rread [n=rread@192.18.41.196] has joined #lisp 16:07:13 if someone else does it, that is! :P 16:08:59 alan`` [n=alan@pcd335056.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:55 -!- alan`` [n=alan@pcd335056.netvigator.com] has left #lisp 16:10:40 nyef: the book is fairly standard and when it's not it is mentioned 16:11:02 if SBCL changed, presumably it was not broken, so everything that is supposed to be relevant in that book is still relevant 16:11:18 If it's not broken, why fix it? 16:11:21 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:11:41 nyef: I doubt the patches applied to SBCL are conformance patches. 16:12:20 Anyway, there's an official answer from the maintainer who made the changes already, so... 16:12:46 Does that official answer warn people to avoid reading PCL, because what is there might not work in the new SBCL as documented? 16:13:27 No, but my baseline assumption is that slyrus is competent. 16:13:31 i even enjoy reading cltl2 16:13:54 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:10 nyef: because he is competent, he'll run code that is implementation-dependant and will expect SBCL to behave as expected? 16:14:15 Does that make any sense to you? 16:14:25 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:14:27 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.150.101.55] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:48 Thus, slyrus knows about PCL, thus the acutal question is either more in-depth than the book supports or the book is outdated with respect to what he's trying to do. 16:15:36 Not your original claim but fine, if you put it that way then I've got nothing more to add 16:15:36 -!- frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:16:23 Yeah, it looks like I was expecting you to already know the context I was working with, which was a bad assumption on my part. 16:16:58 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 16:18:03 current DIRECTORY behaviour is expected to be identical to the old one -- so PCL notes about it should still hold 16:18:13 Fair enough. 16:18:19 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-73-4.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 16:18:48 ...that is, I consider any changes to be regressions 16:19:11 (since none were intended) 16:19:21 -!- rread [n=rread@192.18.41.196] has quit [] 16:20:02 (quit 16:20:22 In loop, do you prefer, for example, count or counting? 16:20:30 *stassats* prefers count 16:20:30 -!- p0a [n=emacs@athedsl-386957.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:20:58 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-64-26.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:21:38 i don't try to make it look like English 16:22:44 mega1: why not just use unbound-widetag instead of some random value into the heap for TL-VAL? 16:22:48 I'm still trying to get a feel for loop. Trying to figure out when it better expresses something than DO. 16:22:48 I prefer count, too and read it as imperative. 16:23:02 always? 16:23:09 stassats: Nope 16:23:30 ok, try some more 16:23:33 mega1: oops, missed you 16:23:35 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.67.160] has joined #lisp 16:23:53 jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:56 mega1: it's been on my todo for ages -- i consider it a valid debugging tool 16:24:09 froydnj: hm?? tl-val is the value of the symbol in the other thread 16:24:29 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:25:14 nikodemus: would there be something wrong with the interrupt-thread based implementation? 16:25:31 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:25:45 mega1: debugging threads hanging in uninterruptible state 16:26:28 ok 16:26:53 oh, and I missed you too ;-) 16:27:45 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@218.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:27:48 HG` [n=wells@xdslfw187.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:28:09 drdo [n=psykon@62.169.113.101.rev.optimus.pt] has joined #lisp 16:28:12 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:28:48 jmbr [n=jmbr@8.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:28:53 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:29:48 nikodemus: Nice coincidence, btw. I need symbol-value-in-thread for the inspecting-once-stack-allocated-but-now-gone-values thing in Slime 16:30:26 My "portable", default implementation is based on interrupt-thread 16:30:37 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:30:54 -!- Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.162.158.150] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:31:32 nikodemus pasted "%s-v-i-t rehashed" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82068 16:32:51 truthair [n=truthair@arazoid.nl] has joined #lisp 16:33:56 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 16:34:27 lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 16:34:57 cirquitz [n=cirquitz@203.199.114.33] has joined #lisp 16:35:09 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 16:35:15 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.160.44] has joined #lisp 16:36:15 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:36 I'm reading through Practical Common Lisp, and I 'm kinda lost on the use of/need for quoting expressions. I have this idea it should be a simple "Aha!" feeling, but I can't seem to actually grasp it. 16:37:58 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@ip227.fa1-0-1.occ.iinet.com] has quit [] 16:38:09 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 16:38:38 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-59166837432855ca] has joined #lisp 16:39:09 truthair: quoting prevents an expression from being evaluated. in '(a b c) nothing is evaluated, you just have a list of the symbols a, b, and c. in (a b c) Lisp is going to look for a function "a" and values "b" "c" 16:39:54 because that is what happens when evaluating a list of the form (foo bar baz). 16:40:00 nikodemus: if you are going to rely on conservativeness is this whole thing necessary? 16:40:03 if you don't want it evaluated, then quote it. 16:40:11 truthair: let me know if that helps 16:40:30 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 16:40:40 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:40:53 syamajal1 [n=syamajal@140.232.182.22] has joined #lisp 16:41:03 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.22] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:41:10 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:27 dto: I got that much, but I can't seem to come up with a solid example when/why I'd want that to move it from simply knowing to actually understanding 16:41:38 truthair: like "for i in foo: print i" is not evaluated in Python. The difference is that this produces a string whereas '(a (b c) d) produces (nested) lists of symbols. 16:41:53 truthair: When you want list literals 16:41:58 I mean the value is always on the stack or in a register so gencgc would not collect or move it. 16:42:24 I usually try not to rely on conservativeness or make an explicit comment about it. 16:42:58 truthair: (At this point, you should be told that modifying literals in Lisp is prohibited. So '(1 2 3) is similiar, but not totally equal to [1,2,3]) 16:43:25 that was my initial thought 16:45:08 but i was thinking that reasoning about TL-VAL being the pointer and hence pinning the object is trickier than just reasoning about the constructed object 16:45:12 tcr: Probably widely inaccurate use of terminology, but it could be seen as making the expression lazy (or rather, lazier then evaluating it immediately away)? 16:45:18 -!- merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has quit [] 16:45:38 -!- Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 16:46:43 that's probably pointless, though 16:47:08 yeah, so it seems. 16:47:54 though it would be nasty if SAP-REF-WORD somehow consed up a bignum 16:47:59 Hunh. Over four ports I've seen three different signatures for pseudo-atomic. 16:48:09 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:04 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 16:49:27 nikodemus: I'm sorry for being vague on the context. I approach this from the implemantability point of view: what would it look like on a precise gc. 16:49:53 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:50:09 truthair: Actually comparing to [] in python is totally bogus, sorry for comming up with that. QUOTE does not evaluate. so '(a b) is a list consisting of the symbols A, and B, and not values of variables named such 16:50:22 it's fine if we see that it can be implemented without much trouble and leave a note that the current impl relies on conservativeness. 16:50:43 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:49 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-5-135.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:51:04 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:51:19 it's a shame that #!+gencgc doesn't in fact mean "conservative", otherwise we could write #!-gencgc #.(bug "fix this") 16:51:20 can it be a bignum? 16:51:42 I think it's starting dawn on me. PCL uses a do-primes macro that expands to some do loop and then explain macroexpand-1, where they pass the macro to quoted [ (macroexpand-1 '(do-primes (p 0 19) (format t "~d " p))) ], the reason to quote it there is that otherwise macroexpand-1 would expand the do macro contained in do-primes rather then the do-primes macro, no? 16:52:13 truthair: Yeah, right. 16:52:40 mega1: in practical terms the call to MAKE-LISP-OBJ can get its argument on the heap if it doesn't fit into a fixnum -- which is perfectly possible 16:52:50 truthair: No, it's worse than that. If you leave the quote off then the do-primes macro expansion is evaluated and the result is macroexpanded. 16:53:13 in which case it's anyone's guess if TL-VAL is still around somewhere 16:53:16 So you'd get a list of primes on standard output before macroexpand-1 is called. 16:53:19 shit, the wind changes again 16:53:36 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@proxy.emea.fedex.com] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:53:46 I have had to change my opinion too many times, already. 16:53:53 i think i prefer to do the *GC-EPOCH* check for that reason -- more robust in the face of compiler changes 16:54:08 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:50 we could have a (without-heap-allocation () ...) form which asserts that the compiler doesn't generate any allocations 16:54:58 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:55:28 so it creates a lisp obj that may point to a random heap address 16:55:34 t3eblinder [n=wolfgang@p5B202AB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:55:41 nyef: Right, because all the macro's are recursively expanded and resulting expression evaluated before it reaches macroexpand-1 16:56:00 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:56:01 that's still okay on gencgc, but would lose big time on precise gc 16:56:17 pseudo-atomic has to be in-register on load-store architectures without an atomic exchange instruction, doesn't it? 16:56:20 truthair: Right. 16:57:24 -!- t3eblinder [n=wolfgang@p5B202AB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 16:57:25 Well, that's at least a more useful example then a bunch of hypothetical lists of symbols which are not evaluated. Back to the books I go, thanks 16:57:30 nyef: why? 16:57:50 mega1: does your hypothetical precise gc support explicit pinning? 16:58:02 mega1: In order to test pseudo-atomic-interrupted? 16:58:09 (i assume not) 16:58:14 wbraun [n=wolfgang@p5B202AB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:58:15 Oh, wait, they can be separate symbols. 16:58:33 nikodemus: sure, we rely on that in a number of places already (even if it's only without-gcing under the hood) 16:58:41 Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:59:50 nyef: p-a-i can be tested in as many instructions as you see fit, there is no dangerous race there 17:00:04 Right, that just occurred to me, 17:00:46 The critical thing is that it is tested after we leave p-a. 17:01:54 yes 17:02:14 and that deferrables are blocked if it had been interrupted. 17:02:41 willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 17:02:51 Not so worried about that bit just yet. 17:03:09 Error encoding error on stream # (:EXTERNAL-FORMAT :ASCII): the character with code 174 cannot be encoded. 17:03:09 how would i go about finding out how much cpu time is spent in a part of a function accumulated over subsequent calls 17:03:23 nikodemus annotated #82068 "with comments" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82068#1 17:03:33 Hrm. SWP only allows for register-indirect addressing with no offset, which means burning a register. 17:03:51 that's burried in a few levels of ucw. Anybody know enough to tell me if that's probably happening in my (format "~a" ..) ? 17:03:51 HET2: you'd use a profiler ... probably one that comes with your implementation, or M-x slime-profile. 17:04:19 I assume ucw's not to blame, since it spit out the same data via a different path 17:04:28 drewc: erm that only tells me how much time is spent for the whole function 17:04:36 drewc: i'd like to know which part of the function is the bottleneck 17:04:41 Jasko2: Depends. Do you have a backtrace from that? 17:04:51 sadly, no 17:04:53 HET2: use DEFUN to break your function up? 17:05:08 drewc: that does nasty things to my lexical scope 17:05:08 (Alternately, add a handler-case around your format to see if that's the source?) 17:05:20 nikodemus: looks right. 17:05:21 "conservative on both on GENCGC" 17:05:22 Jasko2: start UCW in a locale that supports the character set you are trying to print. 17:05:46 nikodemus: also "good loking". Lion king? 17:05:50 I like the handler-case idea. I'll see if that gets me anything 17:06:09 A utf-8 locale is good for allowing just about anything that SBCL might try to spit out. 17:07:03 HET2: SBCL's statistical profiler may help you, though your function probably calls for refactoring 17:07:14 Oh. I have no direct compare-to-memory operation. I'm going to have to burn a temp reg -anyway-. 17:08:14 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 17:08:33 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:18 HET2: So ... you can always put it back together once you've discovered where the bottleneck is... obviously the function is already too complex, otherwise it would be obvious where things slow down. 17:10:05 well, handler-case didn't help. Guess I have to do it the hard way 17:10:32 how comes you got no backtrace? 17:10:32 which is a pity, because unicode is pretty high on the list of things I don't understand 17:11:22 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 17:11:50 it's a live server. Such things are hidden for the sake of user experience 17:12:18 (normally they're emailed straight to me, but in this case, it's a server belonging to someone else without all that stuff set up) 17:12:30 Can't you log it to a file? 17:12:42 mega1: oops, thanks! 17:13:02 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:23 Jasko2: paragent is written using ucw? 17:13:25 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-17-167-126.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:42 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-17-167-126.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:14:18 yup 17:15:08 tcr: probably. It's largely a question of how much development I want to do on somebody else's live server 17:15:25 especially for a relatively minor problem 17:15:27 Jasko2: is the get-backtrace-for-emacs restart available when that error is caught? 17:17:19 Jasko2: do you have print-object methods on any of your components that might try to print a unicode string as part of the print-unreadable-object bit? My first instinct here is to look at the logging. 17:17:53 logging is pretty much all I'm going off of. it's handled before things get to the debugger 17:18:08 the context: exporting to csv 17:18:13 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:18:24 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-5-213.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:18:48 jesus christ it's a call to vector-push that eats 80% of the time in this function 17:19:10 Jasko2: ok.. so what/where/when is printing to the terminal when you export to .csv ? 17:19:35 minion: lisppaste 17:19:35 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 17:19:43 -!- willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:20:14 Jasko pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82069 17:20:40 I probably just need to dig around some more myself. Was hoping somebody here would say "ah, I know what that is" 17:20:53 but it doesn't look like it 17:21:22 Jasko annotated #82069 "csv exporting" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82069#1 17:21:43 alan`` [n=alan@pcd335056.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 17:23:01 HG`` [n=wells@xdslhl127.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:23:19 Jasko2: i'm assuming that in the defaction, the :data data is what contains non-ascii chars... is that a correct assumption? 17:23:56 Hi. I have a problem with a macro or a function (don't know what I need really...). It's a little bit complicated to describe... i realized this function with (eval ...) but I thought call eval within a function isn't very good. Can I paste it so anyone get what I mean? 17:24:13 minion: Tell wbraun about lisppaste 17:24:13 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 17:24:14 yes 17:26:07 HET2 i'm not sure of lisp's implementation, but pre allocating a vector in c++, by setting the size was always a good idea, because resizes were expensive 17:26:16 Jasko2: silly question... you have tried this with ucw:*debug-on-error* set to T ... yeah? 17:27:19 i suspect the error you see logged is the second error that occurs when trying to log the first error. 17:27:21 drewc, I have not. I think I'll give that a try 17:27:38 Heh. How's this scheme for p-a? The VOP allocates a temp register and passes it to p-a. p-a turns around and stores the tn-offset of the temp register in *pseudo-atomic*. That temp register is then p-a-i. 17:27:43 Jasko2: that's usually my first tack ... get a real backtrace. 17:27:45 well not expensive but they only ever increased by double so that if you started with an initial size of 4 and need 1000 it would have reallocate more than if you set it at 1000 to begin with 17:27:53 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 17:27:58 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:28:28 http://paste.lisp.org/+1RBQ 17:29:31 yeah, my special error catching stuff really gets in the way in this case. I'll see how that goes 17:29:35 wbraun: What's this meant to do? 17:30:01 wbraun: And how important is the short-circuit evaluation of the OR? 17:30:05 nyef: is that only for cool hack points? 17:30:18 -!- alan`` [n=alan@pcd335056.netvigator.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:30:20 mega1: I don't know. 17:30:51 alan`` [n=alan@pcd335056.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 17:30:55 mega1: I suspect that it would break down on allocation region overflow, but it otherwise looks like it'd save a couple memory references in the uninterupted case. 17:31:41 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslfw187.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:31:57 nyef: it should be a function which represents a clause which contains variables and evaluates when called to t or false (it's only a small piece of a macro/function, what i want to write, and will be called very often. thats the reason for the short-circuit evaluation) 17:31:58 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 17:32:08 I can't see how. You need to touch *pseudo-atomic* when entering and also when exiting because the temp register will be reused for something else. 17:32:27 drewc, well, (setf ucw:*debug-on-error* t) changed nothing. Wouldn't be surprised if our custom error handling component ignores it 17:32:51 mega1: Yeah, but I would then have to load *psuedo-atomic-interrupted*. 17:33:01 Jasko2: damn. 17:33:03 or do i need to restart things for that to take effect? 17:33:10 no, it should be instant 17:33:17 nyef: I see, that could be saved. 17:33:34 wbraun: Okay, so it returns a function... 17:33:35 you can try (setf (debug-on-error *your-ucw-application*) t) 17:33:44 but i doubt that will work either. 17:33:59 Jasko2: oh ... you're all the way back on ucw_dev too are you not? 17:34:09 yeah, this is not a fresh ucw 17:34:11 -!- qbg [n=quickbas@74-33-17-137.dsl1.mond.mn.frontiernet.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060215]"] 17:34:36 wbraun: I'd go for something recursive on CLAUSE, as it's clearly a list. 17:35:15 SBCL threading questino of the day: Why does any new thread get the frametable of the toplevel thread instead of the frame of the thread that spawned it? 17:35:36 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 17:35:59 -!- alan`` [n=alan@pcd335056.netvigator.com] has left #lisp 17:36:33 herbieB: Probably due to the behavior of the initial per-thread bindings. Whatever a "frametable" is... 17:36:44 would (concatenate 'string ...) do funny encoding things? (funny in this case probably means assuming ascii) 17:36:51 nyef: I mean the frame of variables. 17:36:58 nyef: This has to do with dynamic scoping. 17:37:07 although I guess my handler-case should have ruled out it being in there 17:37:30 willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 17:37:44 herbieB: bindings of dynamic vars are not inherited by new threads 17:37:56 neither from the parent nor from the initial thread 17:38:12 A new thread will see the global binding when started. 17:38:36 No, they are inherited from the initial thread... 17:38:45 Yeah, global I mean. 17:38:52 WHy do global bindings? 17:39:23 -!- syamajal1 [n=syamajal@140.232.182.22] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:39:23 so threads can invoke global functions? 17:39:52 herbieB: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Special-Variables.html#Special-Variables 17:40:05 -!- willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:41:08 wbraun: http://paste.lisp.org/+1RBQ#1 might do what you need. 17:41:29 mega1: I understand what it's doing. The question I'm asking is why? 17:42:20 wbraun: Consed up in a hurry and without deep thought, so there are some things with it that look off in retrospect. 17:42:49 herbieB: Implementation simplicity, for starters... 17:43:09 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:43:18 Jasko2: it could actually ... what is the value of sb-impl::*default-external-format*? 17:43:34 If you want the new thread to establish some set of bindings when it starts, have it invoke a closure at startup that does the damage. 17:43:38 Alestan [n=Logan_Pe@147.222.227.23] has joined #lisp 17:43:48 :ANSI_X3.4-1968 17:44:11 nyef: I also udnerstand how to fix it. 17:44:17 Jasko2: so, unless your data has it's strings encoded in the same format, you've got problems. 17:44:19 Fair enough, then. 17:44:20 its 17:44:26 minion: thwap to drewc 17:44:27 drewc: direct your attention towards thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 17:45:02 drewc, so would replacing that with a format potentially resolve it via magic? 17:45:17 wtf? deadlocks? 17:45:20 grrr 17:45:29 Jasko2: no... if you want to use strings you must use the correct encoding... otherwise they're not strings. 17:45:48 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:45:48 herbieB: http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/sbcl.git?a=commit;h=d724066ca963f974b47f1a51af13ff9d680392db 17:46:32 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:05 Jasko2: where does the data itself come from? 17:47:12 herbieB: the executive summary is that it's saner and you can explicitely bind the specials you are interested in in a closure passed to make-thread 17:47:53 Hey all, I'm having a bit of a problem with *standard-input*. I am using a program that accepts external scripts, it sends input to the scripts via its stdout, and takes scripts output to its stdin. The standard-output from clisp is getting to the programs stdin, but the stdout from the program is not getting to *standard-input*. It works with every other scripting language I've tried. I think that *standard-input* is pointed at the console, but I'm no 17:48:13 herbieB: also see https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/310204/ 17:48:26 *mega1* has to go now 17:48:51 nyef: I wanted the function to have this structure (a little bit practice and because such compiled function will be computed 60%-90% of runtime and i wanted to save the call to (if (plusp var) ...)). I was a little bit confused because the version with eval was the only way I get it worked, neither as macro nor as function without eval. eval in a function looks a bit strange for me ;-) 17:49:04 mega1: Ooh. I could do with something like that... 17:49:34 wbraun: Right, eval anywhere is usually bad. 17:49:35 If anyone can explain easily how to specify what stream to use for standard-input, I would appreciate it. 17:49:39 -!- cirquitz [n=cirquitz@203.199.114.33] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:50:40 drewc, most immediately, from our mysql database through clsql 17:51:27 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.160.44] has quit ["Log this!"] 17:51:38 Jasko2: what encoding does the database use? something other than ascii? 17:51:39 wbraun: Feel free to do as much calculation as you want before building the closure and just close over the results. 17:52:19 Jasko2: the quick solution is to setup a proper utf8 locale on the server before starting up the lisp image... assuming utf-8 is what's in the db 17:52:21 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e44a7c1.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:52:43 drewc, my guess would be utf-8. I'm sure we haven't changed the defaults there 17:53:12 nyef: Okay I try it once again ;) Thanks for your tipps to my problem 17:53:22 Jasko2: ok, so what i said... SBCL needs to be utf-8 as well, and the best way to do that is to start it in a utf-8 locale. 17:53:37 wbraun: Best of luck. 17:53:58 drewc, k. guess I'll hunt down those startup scripts 17:55:40 Hrm. CPU does unaligned access, so I can't hide bits there... 17:55:58 Thus, I definately need to burn at least one temporary register. 17:57:07 willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 17:59:04 -!- langzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@p5B17F980.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:00:00 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 18:00:07 nyef: http://github.com/unya/linux-vm-analizer/tree/master <--- maybe it will be of interest to you. Barely started, I was too busy with exams and doing creative-writing thinking lately :) 18:30:02 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 18:30:02 18:30:02 -!- names: ccl-logbot konr dysinger kejsaren_ wol_ kidd1 ejs0 billstclair rread milanj- slyrus_ BrianRice-mb Athas nha willb kejsaren Odin- ignas HG`` Edward_ ASau Adlai wbraun timor cracki pstickne dialtone Davse_Bamse mrsolo p8m lde truthair amnesiac jmbr drdo jao sreeram krumholt dysinger_ Ginei_Morioka mrSpec msaraujo Yuuhi eno xinming_ Dave2 jewel xristos sohail jleija Fufie athos Lectus tsuru Jasko2 fisxoj madnificent bombshelter13_ nyef tcr stassats 18:30:02 -!- names: Gertm fiveop LiamH matimago pem c|mell nikodemus ziarkaen borism dlowe sellout daniel Nshag yango tvaalen VityokOr` xan_ rindolf dto gemelen dys HET2 bdowning wedgeV_ Guthur trebor_dki asksol tombom KingNatoG5_ Hun hkBst legumbre Axioplase_ ilitirit bobf ia tarbo joast Phoodus araujo prxq nasloc__ Draggor grouzen marcoecc rtoym kleppari moocow kami- kpreid knobo herbieB elias` benny ahaas segv frontier1 antoszka X-Scale anfairch puchacz s0ber 18:30:02 -!- names: plutonas manic12 tmh existentialmonk whr tic KingNato_ fnordus ecraven Taggnostr tltstc drforr_ wlr ace4016 lukego sykopomp pjb stepnem ivank mkfort rdd Riastradh dalkvist galdor maxote CrazyEddy r0bby REPLeffect lujz aunwork meingbg spacebat pkhuong antifuchs Adrinael vy cods keithr Patzy froydnj michaelw phadthai ironChicken Holcxjo cp2 jlf` mgr pitui scode_ Soulman BrianRice Quadrescence djkthx bohanlon jrockway desu Zhivago Wombat1 alexbobp 18:30:02 -!- names: ``Erik Khisanth fgtech koollman p_l Orest Drakeson lisppaste dfox blast_hardcheese delYsid prip dmiles abeaumont felipe rey_ foom pragma_ azuk` kei_ PissedNumlock slyrus _3b Bootvis arbscht hyperboreean l_a_m lnostdal minion Fade leo2007 [df] ineiros mathrick brown``` jkantz guaqua proq mikezor mornfall frodef djinni` Dazhbog anekos enn @drewc kuwabara bob_f qebab Borbus erg ramus` cYmen Ralith mtd johanbev authentic Aisling jsnell AntiSpamMeta 18:30:02 -!- names: joga kuhzoo rbancroft erk glogic housel nicktastic johs kefka tessier cavelife^ clog ianmcorvidae myrkraverk dcrawford bfein ski yahooooo rlonstein smithzv specbot egn easyE zbigniew vcgomes bun_bun srcerer tcoppi thijso dostoyevsky wgl cmm rotty lemoinem sjbach guenthr vsync rsynnott Bucciarati noptys gz Maddas boyscared luis krappie chii Xof pok z0d _dima 18:30:20 Adlai: symlinks might be useful here. 18:30:55 well, right now asdf-install handles everything... If I do use clbuild, I'd like it to be this streamlined too. 18:32:13 'asdf-install handles everything'? ... you must not have much to handle. 18:32:30 so far it has, except for two hiccups. 18:32:34 :-/ 18:33:06 I used to use asdf-install, but it's been such a pain that I ended up using it for CLX only... And now I maintain a local CLX tree so I don't even do that anymore. 18:33:23 those hiccups were odd though... it was getting 404s when it appended ".asd" to the URL of a .tar.gz file 18:34:02 which is a bit odd, because it should be able to get the .asd from within the archive. 18:35:15 actually, it's .asc 18:35:20 no idea what those are... 18:35:37 public keys? 18:35:45 No, gpg signatures. 18:36:11 yeah, signing data 18:37:04 does that mean that the library has no gpg signature? 18:37:24 -!- willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:37:31 it seems to me like a bug with common-lisp.net though... 18:37:36 because it works with most libraries. 18:37:51 (that also get DLed from common-lisp.net) 18:38:09 so for the few that don't work, I'm guessing that they're maybe not stored properly on c-l.net 18:38:13 It's a problem with the library not really being set up for asdf-install. 18:38:23 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:39:50 _death [i=death@host-90-233-200-247.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:39:59 nikodemus pasted "suspicious!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82072 18:40:16 -!- wol_ [n=wol@c-24-6-239-111.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:40:35 wol_ [n=wol@c-24-6-239-111.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:33 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A2C50.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:17 konr1 [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 18:44:17 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:44:17 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:44:56 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:45:26 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:46:54 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-232.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:48:31 milan [n=milan@212.200.217.68] has joined #lisp 18:49:21 nyef pasted "Possible ARM pseudo-atomic" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82073 18:51:01 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:51:11 benny [n=benny@i577A25EB.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:54:38 willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 18:56:12 -!- milanj- [n=milan@212.200.217.68] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:56:26 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17F980.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:08 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:58:17 I have a bordeaux-threads problem; I can tell that my new thread runs for 10 seconds (as it's supposed to), but it's not printing the output that it should. 18:58:25 (it should print "I'm alive" every 2 seconds) 18:58:31 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-128-146.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:58:46 SBCL+SLIME? Check the *inferior-lisp* buffer. 18:58:53 Adlai: post the code 18:58:56 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:58:57 ACL+Slime 18:59:08 nyef: or maybe a missing finish-output 18:59:09 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:18 Or that, yeah. 18:59:30 wait 18:59:38 let me read about finish-output and try using that 18:59:42 that's probably the mistake 19:00:07 Adlai: Place (setf swank:*globally-redirect-io* t) into your ~/.swank.lisp 19:00:16 Checking the buffer has a lower opportunity cost. 19:00:53 Not in the long run 19:01:19 It's a diagnostic step. There is no long run. 19:01:48 Either the output is there now or it isn't. 19:03:06 ah, it was in the *inferior-lisp* buffer 19:03:15 Okay, go with what tcr said. 19:04:17 ok, lemme restart slime... 19:04:48 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@ip227.fa1-0-1.occ.iinet.com] has quit [] 19:05:24 you only have to restart swank 19:05:26 hm, it's still going to the inferior buffer 19:05:27 ,restart at the repl 19:06:16 Ok that's a bug that's there since several months 19:06:47 hm, no differenc. 19:06:53 will an emacs restart help? 19:06:57 or is this a permanent bug? 19:06:58 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-57-80.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:07:23 -!- milan [n=milan@212.200.217.68] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:07:24 this isn't a problem for my app, but it's a nuisance. 19:07:48 It's a bug that does not affect every implementation 19:07:55 ok. 19:08:03 I'll live :) 19:08:40 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:09:06 I could also just run my app outside of swank, when I need to *run* (as opposed to develop) 19:09:27 running that function from the command line works fine 19:09:39 i mean, while running lisp from the command line 19:10:31 Adlai: (let ((stdout *standard-output*)) (make-thread (lamnda () (let ((*standard-output* stdout)) ...))) 19:10:56 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:02 Alestan [n=Logan_Pe@147.222.227.23] has joined #lisp 19:11:49 Yes, or altenatively: (define-symbol-macro .repl-stream. (swank::connection.user-output (swank::default-connection))) 19:11:54 Does anyone have a link to someplace I can learn how to either pipe output from one lisp script to another? Or, failing that, a way to fork lisp processes? 19:11:55 then print to .repl-stream. 19:12:11 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.214.238] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:12:18 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.116.25.191] has joined #lisp 19:12:26 Alestan: what implementation? 19:12:49 clisp in andLinux, running kubuntu 19:13:01 deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has joined #lisp 19:13:03 I don't know how to check what implementation that is though. 19:13:26 clisp is an implementation 19:13:35 cl is abbreviation of common lisp 19:13:39 which do you mean? 19:13:44 nikodemus: thanks, that works. 19:13:44 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:14:20 found it, GNU Clisp 2.42 19:14:28 milan [n=milan@212.200.217.68] has joined #lisp 19:14:48 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-15-16.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:15:18 tcr: gnu clisp 2.42 19:15:19 Alestan: That comes with thorough documentation, did you look at it? 19:15:40 tcr, your method works as well 19:16:28 is there a means to list whats available in a package, in terms of functions et al 19:16:53 I installed clisp-doc, but I don't know how to actually access the documentation. 19:16:56 re pseudo-atomic, would rolling IP back to the beginning of the PA section when interrupted be interesting (or doable)? 19:17:32 Gunthur: (do-external-symbols 19:17:36 pkhuong: Might be interesting, but it backs right onto the whole "smarter unwind" thing. 19:17:50 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.116.25.191] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:17:57 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.116.25.191] has joined #lisp 19:18:03 It's essentially the pclsring problem again. 19:18:07 Adlai quality thanks :) 19:18:07 nyef: right. 19:18:13 Guthur: Yes, inspect the package 19:18:30 anfairch` [n=user@nat/microsoft/x-eca0af1f4d0f263c] has joined #lisp 19:18:36 The Slime Inspector will nicely group functions, macros, variables etc 19:18:43 minion: tell gunthur about packages 19:18:44 gunthur: have a look at packages: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html 19:18:58 *Adlai* likes the minion. 19:19:39 minion is a great wee gimp, i seen earlier that he can take memos as well 19:19:48 yep. I gave him one. 19:20:07 minion: tell us about successful-lisp 19:20:07 us: have a look at successful-lisp: Successful Lisp is a book providing an all-around summary of Common Lisp, available online at http://www.psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/ 19:20:20 hm, tell "us" wasn't too successful... 19:20:46 who wrote minion? 19:20:47 minion: tell everyone about successful-lisp 19:20:47 everyone: please see successful-lisp: Successful Lisp is a book providing an all-around summary of Common Lisp, available online at http://www.psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/ 19:20:51 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181146241.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:20:53 there :) 19:21:00 minion: describe successful-lisp 19:21:00 lisp is the glue that binds the variables together 19:21:04 -!- konr1 [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:21:12 minion: tell about successful-lisp 19:21:13 about: please look at successful-lisp: Successful Lisp is a book providing an all-around summary of Common Lisp, available online at http://www.psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/ 19:21:37 hm. looks like minion needs a more flexible parser... 19:23:16 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:15 -!- anfairch [n=user@nat/microsoft/x-321029493328268a] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:25:54 Heh. Alpha doesn't have an ALLOCATION macro. 19:26:44 tcr thanks looking into the inspector now, sounds promising 19:27:52 -!- Alestan [n=Logan_Pe@147.222.227.23] has left #lisp 19:28:28 *tmh* hates fence-post errors. 19:29:51 a-s [n=user@92.81.133.212] has joined #lisp 19:30:44 -!- truthair [n=truthair@arazoid.nl] has left #lisp 19:31:38 -!- deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has quit [] 19:32:52 -!- Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.10.45] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 19:33:30 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:34:51 minion: successful-lisp? 19:34:52 successful-lisp: Successful Lisp is a book providing an all-around summary of Common Lisp, available online at http://www.psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/ 19:35:12 (you were trying too hard :P)) 19:36:15 *Adlai* must do penance for violating the Sloth commandment... 19:37:54 george_ [n=george@189.107.167.96] has joined #lisp 19:38:01 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:38:15 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:39:32 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:40:33 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:12 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:41:40 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:44:11 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 19:49:37 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:50:22 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:16 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:34 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 19:57:57 is there any lisp dialect designed for concurrency ? 19:58:18 -!- milan [n=milan@212.200.217.68] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:58:30 besides clojure * 19:58:33 More than one. 19:58:36 -!- willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:58:56 any one that you can remember ? 19:59:09 willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:14 The one for the connection machine? 19:59:51 george_: Plenty. A recent one is Termite 20:00:03 george_, what do you mean by "designed for concurrency"? 20:00:23 An agreeable lisp? 20:00:53 well , erlang is desingned for concurrency for example 20:01:27 you can distribute processes 20:01:58 the focus is in the speed of machines that has a lot of cores 20:04:29 milan [n=milan@212.200.217.68] has joined #lisp 20:04:50 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:05:51 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-202-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:17 george_: I got the feeling that Erlang is less about speed but more about concurrency and reliability :D 20:07:19 george_: the *lisp system designed for the Connection Machine was designed for massive concurrency using a data type called the xapping. 20:07:50 Fade: what is conection machine ? 20:08:15 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087E701.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connection_machine 20:08:42 george_: an early Massively Parallel Processing supercomputer 20:11:01 wol__ [n=wol@c-24-6-239-111.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:12 -!- wol_ [n=wol@c-24-6-239-111.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:12:54 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A25EB.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:14:03 benny [n=benny@i577A25EB.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:14:16 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:14:26 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 20:15:31 -!- wbraun [n=wolfgang@p5B202AB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:16:32 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:37 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:16:43 what's up, #lisp? 20:18:19 -!- xan_ is now known as xan 20:20:00 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:20:10 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 20:22:04 -!- ejs0 [n=eugen@89-48-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:05 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1EF19.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:05 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1B6D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:15 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@ip227.fa1-0-1.occ.iinet.com] has joined #lisp 20:24:08 tmh pasted "Ignore DESTRUCTURING-BIND value" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82081 20:24:38 rread_ [n=rread@192.18.41.196] has joined #lisp 20:25:20 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit ["Be back later"] 20:25:31 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 20:25:37 tmh: Not easily 20:25:41 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:25:51 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 20:26:33 tcr: I don't understand what you mean by not easily. 20:26:44 You have to write your own destructuring-bind 20:27:18 I didn't and it behaves as I expected, at least in SBCL. 20:27:20 of course you can base it on CL:DESTRUCTURING-BIND but you still need to parse the arglist 20:27:58 oh sorry I totally misinterpreted what you wanted 20:28:50 that's an interesting kludge 20:29:00 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:50 tcr: Indeed. It seems like a very nasty abuse of the * variable. 20:30:08 I would rather use _ as variable name 20:30:24 but you still need to ignore it 20:30:29 and you can use it only once 20:31:00 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:31:14 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:31:23 stassats: As you typed that, I was thinking the same thing, it can only be used once. But, it doesn't need to be ignored. 20:31:33 tmh: One problem is that it would make all your end-positioned calls in such a destructuring-bind form non-tail-calls anymore :) 20:31:35 -!- VityokOr` [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:31:38 i was talking about _ 20:32:08 you could "just" proclaim _ special and have it behave like * in this instance, fwiw 20:33:30 *hefner* ponders hacking the reader to create specials with gensymed names in place of _ 20:33:38 Bah, I was initially thinking I could supply a * in a lambda list where ever I wanted to ignore something. Probably the better idiom is to define all of the ignored values ignore1, etc. and declare them ignored. More explicit and better for the poor sucker modifying the code 1 year down the road. 20:34:06 That poor sucker most likely being me. 20:34:53 I did not read the whole history here, it looks to me that it would be easy to write a macro to deal with this 20:35:12 "easy" 20:35:13 so that you can use _ more than once, and ignore them 20:35:13 knobo: probably, but where's the fun in that? :-) 20:35:23 (multiple-value-bind (* ** *** date month year - + ++ +++) (decode-universal-time (get-universal-time))) for more fun 20:35:27 tmh: macros ar fun 20:35:42 Lisp: Bringing you the Fun in DEFUN. 20:35:55 stassats: That's what I'm talkin' about. 20:36:13 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 20:36:34 sbcl complains when binding / // /// to not lists 20:36:51 stassats: Yes, because they're -supposed- to be lists. 20:37:02 i know 20:37:35 What are / ? 20:37:40 clhs // 20:37:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_sl_sls.htm 20:37:45 list of values 20:38:51 When you thought you knew lisp :p 20:39:04 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-178-50.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 20:39:07 levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-178-50.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 20:39:12 knobo: No one knows lisp, that's why we have the HyperSpec. 20:39:31 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-178-50.vodafone.hu] has left #lisp 20:39:40 Common Lisp is a friggin' rabbit hole 20:39:40 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-72e5c2a3f3c9581a] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:40:00 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:40:04 lol 20:41:33 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:41:42 tmh: So, how deep does the rabbit hole go? 20:41:48 aren't * ** and *** system symbols too though? 20:42:21 nyef: You tell me, you're much farther along than I am. 20:42:46 It means buckle your seatbelt, Dorothy, 'cause Kansas is going bye-bye. 20:42:52 -!- msaraujo [n=marcelo@189-015-233-185.xd-dynamic.ctbcnetsuper.com.br] has left #lisp 20:43:08 Hunh. Looks like the x86oids are the only ones with alloc junk in target-assem.S, and x86-64 only has one alloc_tramp... 20:43:14 (defun foo (z) (multiple-value-bind (x y) z (floor x y))) 20:43:39 dcrawford: Yes. And +, ++, +++ and -. 20:43:49 sorry for the noise, found my thinko 20:45:04 noone [n=no@adsl227-136.kln.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:45:29 is there anyone here who knows about clips? or is there a channel where i can ask for help about it? 20:45:35 clips not clisp 20:45:57 clisp, the common lisp implementation? 20:46:00 knobo: Kansas? I'm recommending plucking your brain, cause eldritch horrors lurk in dark passages ;-) 20:46:05 stassats: no 20:46:09 clips 20:46:18 that expert system building tool 20:46:27 which uses a lisp-like syntax 20:46:30 but it is not lisp 20:46:31 no, wrong channel 20:46:43 noone: that lisplike-expert-system written in java? Not here 20:46:51 yeah, i was wondering if anybody here knew about it 20:46:54 not in java 20:46:54 C 20:47:13 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:47:18 clipsrules.sourceforge.net 20:47:21 noone: I recall something about implementation in Java, and it seems that there are many smaller dialects 20:47:23 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 20:47:26 does anyone know a partial evaluator for CL? 20:48:07 BrianRice-mb_ [n=briantri@ip227.fa1-0-1.occ.iinet.com] has joined #lisp 20:49:59 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 20:51:02 levy_: szia :) 20:51:10 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@ip227.fa1-0-1.occ.iinet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:51:20 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-5-213.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 20:52:14 fe[nl]ix, hello Stelian 20:52:49 i'm playing with a partial evaluator based on cl-walker and was just wondering if there is already something out there 20:53:00 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:53:06 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:53:10 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 20:53:52 kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:01 levy pasted "partial eval" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82089 20:55:18 levy_: how about http://code.google.com/p/cl-op ? 20:55:22 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 20:55:29 -!- willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:55:54 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-85.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 20:56:09 willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 20:59:43 hmm, checking cl-op 21:00:00 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:00:18 -!- BrianRice-mb_ is now known as BrianRice-mb 21:00:27 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@101.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:02:33 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:02:50 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 21:03:00 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:03:04 -!- _death [i=death@host-90-233-200-247.mobileonline.telia.com] has left #lisp 21:03:10 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 21:03:32 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [] 21:03:46 On cheneygc ports we discover allocation overflow by hitting a guard page and then GCing? 21:03:48 hmm, for the first sight cl-op seems to a bit too simple to me 21:04:01 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:08 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:04:42 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:05:23 kvproject [n=user@126.Red-88-2-1.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:22 i don't see in what sense it is a partial evaluator 21:06:27 milanj [n=milan@212.200.217.68] has joined #lisp 21:06:47 it leaves most of the work to the CL compiler to optimize the function with implicitly bound arguments 21:09:24 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@8.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:09:32 I would expect a partial evaluator to transform let's say a regexp interpreter with a constant regexp argument into a "compiled" regexp matcher program (still in CL) that can only match the given regexp 21:09:45 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:02 doesn't cl-ppcre do that? 21:10:36 -!- milan [n=milan@212.200.217.68] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:10:37 willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:10:46 stassats, that's not the point, but you are right, it does even though it does it manually 21:11:03 cl-ppcre is a regexp compiler 21:11:17 not a regexp interpreter + a generic purpose partial evaluator 21:11:35 psheldr [n=user@217.13.173.12] has joined #lisp 21:12:03 why do you want it? 21:12:50 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:13:24 for two reasons: because it's fun, and we could use it in our libraries 21:13:39 actually we already use a partial evaluator in cl-perec's query compiler 21:13:48 ejs0 [n=eugen@89-48-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:14 but that is not factored out, not general purpose enough, only handles side effect free programs, etc. 21:14:47 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-77.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:06 and we would need it for the authorization library in our meta gui 21:15:08 *gigamonk`* hates Microsoft Word and everything it stands for. 21:15:22 p_l: herep 21:15:42 levy_: maybe this will be interesting for you http://library.readscheme.org/page10.html 21:15:45 minion: what does word mean? 21:15:46 Windowwise Ovipositor Rerob Dolous 21:16:01 gigamonk`: Amen. I've delivered very nice looking PDF's using pdflatex only to have the client ask for a word document. 21:16:31 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-9d38b065529350b6] has joined #lisp 21:16:34 ObLisp: I spent the morning brushing off my code that translates RTF back into my own text-based markup scheme. 21:17:03 Maybe by the time I write my next book I'll be able to roundtrip RTF preserving change tracking and never have to actually use Word again. 21:17:13 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey` 21:17:31 -!- ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@87.115.20.62.plusnet.pcl-ag01.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:18:10 stassats, thanks, that's an awful lot of papers to read ;-) 21:18:43 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:18:53 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 21:18:53 gigamonkey`: Have you looked at htlatex? 21:19:44 I mean tex4ht 21:19:49 htlatex is the command 21:23:01 tmh: I have not. But based on a quick google it seems it doesn't solve the problem of publishers use Word in the workflow. 21:23:42 Cheneygc doesn't do conservative scav of the register set, does it? 21:23:58 I can already generate RTF docs from my own markup which is good for turning things in to the publisher. 21:24:08 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@ip227.fa1-0-1.occ.iinet.com] has quit [] 21:24:18 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:24:34 Now I need to close the loop so I can get back Word docs, convert them back to my markup, muck with them, and regen RTF without losing the change tracking foo they use. 21:25:02 using msoffice for change tracking? 21:25:05 good lord. 21:25:33 willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:26:00 -!- Athas` is now known as Athas 21:26:05 Well, it's actually not quite as crazy as it sounds (though it is making me crazy at the moment), when you're talking about a document that is mostly in one person's hands at a time. 21:26:22 The person currently workin on it can make their changes and they are tracked in the document and people can put in comments, etc. 21:26:29 -!- willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:27:00 gigamonkey' is there no alternatives that over change tracking 21:27:08 s/over/offer* 21:27:40 Guthur: there may be, but my publisher has their workflow and I pretty much have to work within it. 21:28:22 ya i can imagine, was just curious more than anything 21:29:00 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:29:10 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 21:29:59 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 21:31:02 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:38 just had a thought, if you lined up all the major word processor version since the word perfect days, would an unbiased person notice much difference, and the the really money shot, which would they choose 21:32:01 s/the the really/ the real 21:32:22 After how much investigation, and what about the bias of their intended use-cases? 21:32:45 In CFFI is there a way to control the endianness of the integer slots? Or at least to know with what endianness cstruct slots are stored and retrieved? 21:32:57 general word processing I suppose, in a shared document office environment 21:33:05 -!- rread_ [n=rread@192.18.41.196] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:33:34 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@62-47-140-91.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:33:35 pjb: you only get native endianness, whatever that is 21:33:58 C libraries are bitches. 21:34:13 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:34:14 nyef, in truth I would have to think long and hard to think of much else you would really use one for ;) 21:34:23 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 21:34:25 pjb, why might CFFI provide that information differently from C? 21:34:41 pjb, in other words, why is this a question for CFFI, rather than a question for the C library that you're using? 21:34:53 just talking to my friend earlier and he was complaining about how he couldn't find anything in word 2007 21:35:05 Well right, I can test the byte sex myself and do whatever I need to do. 21:35:05 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@101.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:35:20 pjb: patches are welcome, though 21:35:20 pjb, but why does CFFI enter into the question? 21:35:37 Riastradh: I expect more from lisp libraries :-) 21:35:39 what is the best algorithm for generating uniform random numbers? 21:36:12 there is no "best". A good, commonly used one is the Mersenne Twister 21:36:17 gigamonkey`: t 21:36:47 lea2007, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mersenne_Twister 21:37:00 Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 21:37:12 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Client Quit] 21:37:17 The Mersenne Twister as a sexy name in any case. 21:37:26 -!- willb2 is now known as willb 21:37:28 Guthur: Let's see, known use-cases: Writing business letters, writing personal letters, writing design documentation for software, writing design documentation for other things, writing project plans, writing short memos, putting together a newsletter, putting together a pamphlet... 21:37:34 Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 21:37:42 leo2007: or, you can get yourself a source of radiation, a few physics books and build a random number sensor 21:37:45 Guthur: And that's just off the top of my head, and without really trying hard. 21:37:54 nyef you have mixed in desktop publishing there 21:38:12 Yes. That's part of what you use a word processor for. 21:38:14 -!- cp2 [n=will@unaffiliated/cp2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:38:23 It's a low-to-mid-range DTP package. 21:38:33 nyef use to have specialised software for that 21:38:37 Word 2007 has a very nice interface, I have to say. Emacs experience definitely helped 21:38:43 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:38:53 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 21:38:56 My old school used to do all of their DTP work in word perfect. 21:39:02 and alot of that is the same just with different business functions 21:39:06 Guthur: Properly used word processor has big power 21:39:23 -!- prxq [n=mommer@e179202104.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:40:03 willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:07 There is a -lot- of DTP power in MS Word. And I always see documents so tortured that the instant you try to do -anything- right with them their formatting becomes completely corrupt. 21:40:12 i'm not saying it doesn't I just think a lot of that was achieved along time ago 21:40:44 the software industry seems to keep reinventing wheels 21:40:56 Because most people just aren't trained for it and they just skate by on what they can figure out by poking at it. 21:40:59 Guthur: The big error of word processors is WYSIWYG 21:41:00 just a little rounder 21:41:01 fe[nl]ix: I don't need a physical generator ;) 21:41:16 Yeah, well, they sold both adding and removing the stupid paperclip (tm) as upgrades to Word. 21:41:17 MT is already the default in sbcl 21:41:17 -!- psheldr [n=user@217.13.173.12] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:41:20 I have an asdf:load-op related question. 21:41:43 When should I evaluate those forms at the top of a file? 21:41:52 (i.e. in which eval-when context) 21:42:18 Meanwhile, I'm gone. 21:42:21 -!- nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving the office."] 21:42:22 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:42:41 or should I leave the "manual" dependencies out, and make an ASDF definition for my project right now? 21:42:55 Adlai: the latter. 21:43:13 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:43:14 i would love to try the older word perfects and compare, i wonder is it available 21:43:23 sorry for thinking out loud 21:43:24 drewc: If I do that, how should I load/compile my code? 21:43:45 (in Slime 21:43:46 ) 21:44:02 Adlai: ,l RET my-system RET 21:44:51 What about compiling? asdf:compile-op? 21:45:00 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:45:10 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 21:45:12 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:45:56 does anyone see what the purpose is in the (when ,var ...) in SBCL's definition of WITH-OPEN-STREAM? 21:46:20 Adlai: loading a system does implicitly compile it 21:46:23 Adlai: loading will compile, but yes, if you wish to compile, use compile-op. 21:46:38 Adlai: the ASDF manual is well written and quite informative. 21:46:57 minion: tell me about ASDF 21:46:58 Adlai: look at ASDF: asdf is Another System Definition Facility. http://www.cliki.net/ASDF 21:47:08 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 21:47:24 asksol [n=ask@58.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:48:23 tcr: because open can return NIL: (open "/tmp/foo" :if-does-not-exist nil) 21:48:46 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17F980.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:48:46 drewc: I'm at the manual, thx for the pointer. 21:49:01 _bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 21:49:17 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:49:23 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-128-146.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:50:51 What about Getting Started with ASDF, by Mario S Mommer? 21:51:03 it's much shorter than the manual... 21:51:16 (manual's in my bookmark stack, though) 21:51:25 fe[nl]ix: Uh, well 21:51:38 -!- asksol [n=ask@58.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Client Quit] 21:52:09 asksol [n=ask@58.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:52:15 (bookmark queue would be more correct, given the mechanics of entry and exit of my bookmarks...) 21:52:22 tcr: w-o-s does that check to allow writing w-o-f in terms of w-o-s 21:52:32 adlai, you can make you on system definition an set your dependencies in there, they will be all loaded with that one object, i was considering using it like a solution file (a'la visual studio) 21:52:45 -!- willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:52:55 you can make your own* 21:52:58 willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:53:22 *Guthur* guthur must read offer his words more :| 21:53:33 fe[nl]ix: yeah but w-o-s is specified to take a stream 21:53:34 over* 21:53:39 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 21:53:40 oh i give up 21:54:24 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:54:28 I, like any good Ubuntu n00b, am using Pidgin, which spell-checks my messages :) 21:54:42 Palomides [n=palomide@cpe-75-185-73-2.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:54 ya but they are all spelt correct, just the wrong words :p 21:55:06 heh 21:55:13 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:55:23 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 21:55:32 I guess some clever Lisper needs to write The Context-Aware Spell Checker 21:55:35 i'm using xchat which does the correcting, you should have seen me before i started using that, even i didn't know what i was saying ;) 21:56:03 which parses your correctly-spelled comments using a grammar definition based upon your locale, 21:56:14 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:56:15 and flags any correctly-spelled lunacy. 21:56:20 -!- willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:56:54 yeah, xach does that 21:57:25 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:57:27 adlai did you understand my original message? 21:57:30 -!- ejs0 [n=eugen@89-48-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:57:39 tcr: then I suppose that sbcl's w-o-f and w-o-s are non-conforming. (with-open-file (v path)) expands to (with-open-stream (v (open path))) 21:57:44 Which one? just re-send it and i'll tell you. 21:58:29 fe[nl]ix: No it's conforming. It's an user's error if he does not pass the right values to what operators are specified for 21:58:33 -!- _bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit ["leaving"] 21:58:59 adlai about using the .asd files like a solution file to hold all your project dependences, i was toying with it but never got enough mileage to form a decent opinion 21:59:12 they are not that hard to make either 21:59:47 I'm 3 lines into my first .asd right now... 22:00:13 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:00:18 levy pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82095 22:00:21 tcr: no. the spec says, for w-o-f, that "It is possible by the use of :if-exists nil or :if-does-not-exist nil for stream to be bound to nil. Users of :if-does-not-exist nil should check for a valid stream." 22:00:23 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 22:00:25 righteo :) it seems to work ok for libraries out there, so it must have merit 22:01:10 a few more examples of my simple partial evaluator if anybody would like to see, this is really fun 22:01:17 ok 22:01:50 marks [n=user@74.196.9.26] has joined #lisp 22:02:06 fe[nl]ix: Sure 22:02:31 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:02:36 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:03:16 -!- marks [n=user@74.196.9.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:03:35 levy_, What does this mean that this does a "partial" evaluation? 22:04:06 tcr: so, that means that simply expanding (with-open-file (v path :if-exists nil)) to (with-open-stream (v (open path :if-exists nil))) it incorrect, because the former is legal, but the latter isn't 22:04:08 Adlai: constant propagation 22:04:50 fe[nl]ix: The latter is perfectly fine for SBCL because it defines with-open-stream itself 22:04:56 I see... it replaces constant arguments in the initial code, with their value 22:05:04 not constraint propagation? 22:05:13 and in the case of loops etc, does unrolling 22:05:21 tcr: what do you mean by that ? 22:05:24 "loops" including recursion 22:05:35 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 22:05:43 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:05:53 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 22:06:17 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-47-52.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:06:19 this implementation is actually a kind of interpreter 22:06:21 In CFFI, we can declare struct fields as array, but how can we index them? 22:06:54 that is interpreting forms which might result in values or other forms, that is it transforms the input program with respect to statically known information 22:07:13 it is not constant propagation 22:07:41 more than that, for example the environment may contain the assumption that variable x is even 22:07:50 that is clearly not a constant :) 22:08:06 yo, p_l 22:08:16 Were you the guy who works in the publishing industry? 22:08:16 fe[nl]ix: The implementation decides how it handles such a situation. It does not have to rely on portable constraints because it defines the macros 22:08:36 levy_, if the env implies that x is even, would your partial evaluator properly interpret (if (integerp x) (do-this) (do-that)) ? 22:08:39 DepthSort [n=Jonny@69-165-129-226.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:08:49 levy_: constraint then? 22:08:52 gigamonkey`: More like my path crosses it from time to time. I'm not a spec, but I have seen work from the side of publisher 22:08:55 * I meant (integerp (/ x 2)) 22:09:09 -!- drdo [n=psykon@62.169.113.101.rev.optimus.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:35 pjb: (mem-aref (foreign-slot-pointer ) :int 3) 22:09:35 Adlai, it's now 400 LOC, so the answer is no, but on the other hand that is pretty easily doable 22:09:39 yakman [n=bot@94.194.134.155] has joined #lisp 22:09:45 fe[nl]ix: thanks. 22:10:00 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:22 the partial evaluator has to have some public api where you can define new transformation rules, the one you are asking is not difficult 22:10:27 p_l: so do you have any idea, assuming for the moment that my publisher is just going to shove my book into some Word template and hand it over to some printer, how the printer is then likely to actually typeset it? 22:10:48 levy_: It seems neat so far, though, and the loop unrolling stuff could be very handy in places where compilation time didn't matter, but performance of the compiled code did. 22:10:48 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:10:54 levy_: compiler macros? 22:10:59 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 22:11:11 gigamonkey`: You're sending a word document, right? 22:11:15 (If I'm remembering correctly, you were the guy, the other evening who half convinced me that my publisher couldn't possibly be actually planning to use Word for typesetting.) 22:11:15 or TeX? 22:11:17 stassats, certainly it does constraint propagation, but there are also side effects, non local exits, etc. CL is quite complicated in terms of special forms 22:11:21 p_l: well, it depends. 22:11:30 But the normal thing is I send them a Word document. 22:11:36 -!- yakman [n=bot@94.194.134.155] has left #lisp 22:11:47 yakman [n=bot@94.194.134.155] has joined #lisp 22:11:50 for PCL they then did compositing in Quark or PageMaker. 22:12:19 stassats, compiler macro is a plugin mechanism in the compiler, clearly you can invoke a partial evaluator there 22:12:21 But it sounds like for this book, that's not going to happen and my "coordinating editor" has made confusing references to a "Word 6x9 template" 22:12:41 -!- yakman [n=bot@94.194.134.155] has left #lisp 22:12:48 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-97.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:12:49 gigamonkey`: Well, the way I had seen it done, the word document would be looked over by correctors/editor/etc, cleaning up, fixing it into preset template, then it would be imported into DTP program, where a DTP operator would go over it and make sure their book template fits 22:12:58 willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:19 gigamonkey pasted "What my editor told me" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82097 22:13:43 p0a [n=emacs@athedsl-386957.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:13:48 Where a DTP program is, these days, something like InDesign or Quark or Frame Maker? 22:13:50 gigamonkey`, what's the problem with using Word, as long as they're competent at using it? 22:14:07 Adlai: well, if they're using it for the actual typesetting, because it's not for that. 22:14:09 gigamonkey`: I'd guess that they have a DTP template for InDesign/QuarkXpress with corresponding Word template and scripts 22:14:30 Hello if I want to print the cars of a list in format 'x, y, z.' with FORMAT, what directives do I have to use? {~A,} inserts a comma where a fullstop should've been inserted in the last car. 22:14:38 I mean ~{~A,~} 22:14:48 so that if you use said template, the lengthy part of the book will be done "automagically", with typesetter having less work 22:14:52 ~{~A~^,~} 22:15:03 levy_: apart from fun, is performance increase noticeable for your domain? 22:15:14 p0a: ~{~A~^,~}. with the fullstop 22:15:20 -!- Palomides [n=palomide@cpe-75-185-73-2.columbus.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 22:15:28 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:16:11 Adlai: thanks 22:16:42 for the query compiler it might actually make possible to compile down the object queries to SQL 22:16:54 p0a: Thank gigamonkey... I just put a stop at the end of what he said :P 22:16:55 -!- kvproject [n=user@126.Red-88-2-1.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:16:56 p_l: If that's what it is, they should have just said so. If you recall, my angst about this all stared when I asked if they could use InDesign and they said, "No, we're using a Word template." 22:17:35 the authorization injects a form into the query clicked together on the gui, and that form is quite general, practically making it impossible to compile the query down to SQL 22:17:39 But what you say makes a lot of sense. 22:17:42 gigamonkey`: Depending on the internals, they might actually typeset parts of the book with Word (it's not that bad when properly setup, it's just that people forgot to hit "F1"), though I doubt it 22:18:01 What does F1 do? 22:18:08 It's just that if you do it through InDesign/Quark etc. you get all the preflight tools integrated 22:18:11 gigamonkey`: open help 22:18:22 aka, RTFM 22:18:24 gigamonkey`: it drives 22:18:40 All I really want are good line breaks and ligatures. My impression is that Word will probably fall down on the job for both of those. 22:18:46 so partial evaluation kicks in, and by knowing the types of query variables and other model specific stuff (such as types in an association) it helps to still have efficient queries 22:18:49 (Though maybe they've added ligature support lately?) 22:18:52 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:19:00 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:19:13 What are ligatures (in the context of typesetting)? 22:19:42 ff, fi, ffi, get replaced by single characters that look better than the separate characters smooshed together. 22:19:55 willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:55 gigamonkey`: you'd be surprised how I sometimes had to spend 30 minutes with someone's *Masters* thesis, to reshape it from mumbo-jumbo into something that looked like it was coherently typeset... all without leaving Word and not using any special stuff 22:19:55 on the other hand I'm not sure what could we get by partial evaluating a call to make-instance with constant type and keyword arguments, plus free initargs 22:20:05 How can I use ~nT where n is not a constant in FORMAT? 22:20:19 p0a: ~vT 22:20:31 currently the CLOS implementations are doing this kind of optimization by hand, at least AFAICT 22:20:31 Adlai: on very old gravestones close by my house, you can see that "st" was once ligatured (the "s" was in a different form, sometimes it looked like an f" 22:20:56 iirc, Word can detect characters that look bad in that sense, and does something, although I think it's just spacing them further apart. 22:21:15 it's an option called "character kerning" or something, under format->font 22:21:23 note that optimizing generic methods is somewhat tricky (especially make-instance, because that involves an awful lot of them) because you need to fight with method combinations, and applicable methods, and all that 22:21:27 I guess it depends on the font - if the font contains proper data, it can use it 22:21:28 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:31 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:21:37 *Adlai* shudders to recall that he was on WinXP only three weeks ago... 22:21:43 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:21:53 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 22:22:00 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 22:22:15 psheldr [n=user@217.13.173.12] has joined #lisp 22:22:19 p_l: was the 30 minutes in Word just consistently applying styles? 22:22:50 gigamonkey`: it was mostly spent replacing all local mumbo-jumbo with styles then adding automatic indexes etc. 22:23:03 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:23:55 now I think I'm gonna put that pizza in the oven, eat it and then pass out 22:23:56 srcerer_ [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:11 enjoy 22:24:29 p_l: thanks. If I ever find how how they plan to produce this book, I'll let you know. 22:25:04 no problem 22:25:45 alan`` [n=alan@pcd335056.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 22:26:06 gigamonkey`, is this a successor to PCL? 22:26:10 in case anybody wants to look at this quite young stuff, check it out under http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-dwim/darcs/partial-eval/ 22:26:34 -!- wol__ [n=wol@c-24-6-239-111.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:26:39 -!- levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-178-50.vodafone.hu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:26:54 *Adlai* loves PCL, and recommended it to a friend who wants to enter the programming world. 22:26:55 wol__ [n=wol@c-24-6-239-111.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:00 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:27:10 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 22:27:45 *p_l* hopes to get good enough to write a chapter for possible sequel to PCL :P 22:28:04 cp2 [n=will@unaffiliated/cp2] has joined #lisp 22:29:02 -!- willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:05 gigamonkey`: thanks 22:29:06 -!- p0a [n=emacs@athedsl-386957.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 22:29:08 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.67.160] has quit [] 22:29:32 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-178-50.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 22:29:36 levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-178-50.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 22:30:19 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:25 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-178-50.vodafone.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 22:30:25 -!- levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-178-50.vodafone.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 22:32:13 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:32:24 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 22:32:29 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:32:44 saba_ [n=saba@212.112.40.42] has joined #lisp 22:32:46 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:34:40 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@84.131.208.221] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:35:37 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:37:13 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:37:23 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 22:39:56 minion: tell me about xml 22:39:57 Adlai: please look at xml: The eXtensible Markup Language is ``an equivalent of S-expressions for people who are afraid of parentheses''. http://www.cliki.net/xml 22:41:15 What's a recommended library for parsing XML? 22:41:21 minion: cxml 22:41:22 cxml: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/cxml 22:42:24 thanks. 22:42:54 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-64-26.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:43:00 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-86-240.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:43:31 minion: add cxml as: An XML-parsing library for Common Lisp. See http://www.cliki.net/xml. 22:43:32 OK, done. 22:43:54 Adlai: how about pointing to the cliki page for cxml instead? 22:44:01 good paint 22:44:23 minion: add cxml as: An XML-parsing library for Common Lisp. See http://www.cliki.net/cxml. 22:44:24 OK, done. 22:44:29 was a typo. 22:44:50 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:44:57 no, minion looks at cliki for definitions, fix definition on cliki 22:45:12 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:45:43 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:45:50 minion: forget cxml 22:45:51 What's cxml? Never heard of it. 22:46:00 -!- alan`` [n=alan@pcd335056.netvigator.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:46:38 Ppjet6 [n=ppjet@delroth.doesntexist.org] has joined #lisp 22:48:00 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:48:10 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 22:49:11 Can I use CXML to parse an XML that trips me up as a string? 22:49:23 -!- asksol [n=ask@58.241.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:50:14 Adlai: "trips you up"? 22:50:40 Well, I'm not a big fan of XML, and I was trying to think of a stringy metaphor. 22:51:12 You want to know if CXML can parse a string into XML? 22:51:14 I get my XML fix as a string, returned by a drakma:http-request 22:51:21 I'm quite sure it can; I want to know how. 22:51:35 The examples on the site use files 22:51:51 Sure, with cxml:parse. 22:52:03 ok 22:52:21 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:36 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:53:14 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:53:24 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 22:54:24 A CXML workflow is something like: take an input, push parsing data to handlers on the fly, frob the data [either on the fly or once handlers have build an intermediate data structure], generate events, push them into handlers, and usually transform the events into XML. 22:58:19 -!- psheldr [n=user@217.13.173.12] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:58:39 minion: frob? 22:58:41 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``frob''. 22:58:43 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:58:53 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 22:59:04 frob == 'do something with it' 22:59:08 *Adlai* thinks minion should know some hacker lingo as well, to help out the newbies. 22:59:27 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-187.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:59:41 Maybe minion should access the Jargon file in a similar way to how he searches CLiki? 23:01:35 Adlai: the one I'm working on now is http://www.codersatwork.com/ 23:02:22 Adlai: minion isn't supposed to make much noise 23:02:27 *p_l* can't wait for minion explaining "fandango on core" or "here's a nickel kid, buy yourself a real computer" 23:02:50 *Fade* laughs 23:04:00 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:04:02 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:04:03 *Adlai* made a funny... hehe. 23:04:10 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 23:04:13 *p_l* recalls someone gettin a 4-way alpha, maybe he should try haggling it 23:04:46 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:05:23 Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 23:05:28 p_l: do you have a pressing need for noisy space heaters? :p 23:05:46 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:08 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-79.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 23:07:04 pkhuong: If I can make it howl like jet engine, I'll actually sleep better ;-) 23:07:09 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:07:57 there's something in those multi-megawatt engines that makes my soul at ease :D 23:09:00 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:09:10 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 23:09:24 Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.10.45] has joined #lisp 23:12:10 rakista [n=rakista@c-71-59-128-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:30 -!- rakista [n=rakista@c-71-59-128-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:12:53 p_l: http://www.asciimation.co.nz/beer/ 23:12:56 rakista [n=rakista@c-71-59-128-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:00 -!- rakista [n=rakista@c-71-59-128-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:13:16 rakista [n=rakista@c-71-59-128-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:54 -!- rakista [n=rakista@c-71-59-128-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:14:14 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:14:39 ... I like the point where he explains why Guiness :D 23:16:48 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 23:16:53 pjb: summary - COOL 23:17:56 cool beer. 23:18:39 heh 23:19:14 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 23:19:33 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-8e275a456cae6470] has joined #lisp 23:19:46 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-9d38b065529350b6] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:21:55 -!- anfairch` [n=user@nat/microsoft/x-eca0af1f4d0f263c] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:24:28 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [] 23:24:43 MixMix [n=mixmix55@86-41-211-54-dynamic.b-ras1.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:52 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:35 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:31:29 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:34:39 Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:34 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:39:44 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:39:54 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 23:43:30 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:45:45 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:46:00 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:46:10 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 23:46:20 -!- HG`` [n=wells@xdslhl127.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:47:08 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:49:18 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:14 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:51:24 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 23:52:40 ... I think it's time to pass out. AFK 23:53:06 must've been a good pizza. 23:54:15 Adlai: more like sleep deprivation.... zZzZzzzz..... 23:54:44 happy sleeping :) 23:55:59 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp