00:00:22 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [] 00:00:25 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:02:17 I am reading from a server socket stream and it seems to stop at a space char, is this normal behaviour, I am using usocket. I never done the server part before but previous client connections never had this problem during reads 00:03:09 pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 00:03:40 -!- asksol_ [n=ask@062249179105.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:04:15 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:48 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:11:16 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:13:09 couloir [n=chatzill@96.49.120.130] has joined #lisp 00:14:31 -!- asksol [n=ask@062249179105.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:15:09 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-74.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:15:27 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 00:19:15 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:19:24 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:19:56 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:55 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:51 -!- dysinger__ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:26:42 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:48 anfairch [n=user@nat/microsoft/x-c890a8ef2c8e71ac] has joined #lisp 00:27:04 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-221-252-243.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:31:07 parodyoflanguage [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:34 rui [n=rui@bl8-249-69.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:36:53 Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:16 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-69-251.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:38:19 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:38:24 sykopomp` [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 00:38:29 vkumar [n=vkumar@adsl-210-172-154.sdf.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:54 dv___ [n=dv@85-127-104-22.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:39:57 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:15 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:41:47 arthurmaciel [n=user@189.100.112.2] has joined #lisp 00:41:52 hi there 00:41:55 -!- rui [n=rui@bl8-249-69.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["leaving"] 00:42:11 I'm new to lisp (altough I know a little about Scheme) and would like to know a great book about it. 00:42:26 minion: tell arthurmaciel about pcl 00:42:27 minion: tell arthurmaciel about pcl 00:42:28 arthurmaciel: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 00:42:32 :D 00:42:45 thanks fe[nl]ix 00:43:12 PAIP too 00:43:39 http://www.amazon.ca/Paradigms-Artificial-Intelligence-Programming-Studies/dp/1558601910 00:44:21 xristos: I'm also buying this, but the author recommends another book about CL :-) 00:44:49 / 00:46:42 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:48:13 On Lisp 00:48:21 (is nice) 00:48:33 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 00:49:47 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:52:13 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-69-251.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:53:06 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:53:14 arthurmaciel: I was/am in a similar situation as you. I bought pcl and ansi common lisp, and am working through them now. Don't have paip yet, though 00:54:41 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:55:24 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 00:58:04 inforichland [n=inforich@96-42-29-58.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:58:37 clim with-scaling 00:58:37 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/10-2.html#_534 00:58:44 any hunchentoot guys lurking around ? 00:59:20 clim draw-polygon 00:59:21 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/12-5.html#_626 01:01:03 -!- vkumar [n=vkumar@adsl-210-172-154.sdf.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 01:02:19 -!- rread [n=rread@192.18.41.196] has quit [] 01:03:29 Graham doesn't really like clos, does he? 01:04:33 It also seems that he doesn't like common lisp that much... (which is probably why he's writing a new one) 01:05:03 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 01:05:11 sikander: you would be correct 01:05:13 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:05:33 Was he student at Yale? Yet Another Lisp Experiment? 01:05:51 -!- Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:06:16 hmmm... Ansi common lisp is a good book, but from the style of the code and some aside remarks, you get a relatively clear picture of what he thinks of lisp 01:08:51 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:08:53 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:10:12 -!- lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:11:00 Sikander: thanks. 01:12:27 minion: graham crackers? 01:12:27 graham crackers: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html 01:14:51 stassats`: thanks 01:14:53 minion: thanks 01:14:54 np 01:15:04 :D 01:15:12 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:36 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-197-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:11 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:19:51 merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:06 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:20:29 minion: clim with-translation 01:20:29 you speak nonsense 01:20:33 doh 01:20:55 clim with-translation 01:20:55 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/10-2.html#_533 01:21:27 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-40-47.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 01:22:31 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:22:49 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:23:25 clhs gensym 01:23:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_gensym.htm 01:25:22 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 01:26:48 -!- inforichland [n=inforich@96-42-29-58.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [] 01:29:11 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:30:36 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:31:05 ubun00b [n=ubuntu@82-170-227-71.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 01:34:13 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:29 -!- arthurmaciel [n=user@189.100.112.2] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:35:03 in sbcl, sb-ext:muffle-conditions, is it possible to muffle a particular style-warning? 01:36:50 -!- saikat__ is now known as saikat_ 01:37:30 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-e6564d440128540b] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:39:49 -!- s0ber__ [n=s0ber@118-160-171-240.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:40:25 anyone here familiar with atomic and lock-free datastructures? 01:41:36 If you have an interesting question that can be related to Lisp, I'm sure someone will pipe up here, whether well-informed or otherwise. 01:43:03 well... I essentially need to implement a queue which uses lots of threads 01:43:39 and the lock overhead in the naive implementation is killing them 01:44:13 A queue which uses lots of threads? Or a queue used by lots of threads? 01:44:39 it's a work queue which multiple readers and writers 01:45:14 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-40-47.ucr.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:48:01 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-119-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:48:55 I guess Nikodemus didn't put his lock-free queue and mailbox implementation into SBCL after all 01:50:40 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:50:47 still, my no-frills mailbox implementation uses regular old locks and can handle millions of operations per second, but I'd think if you needed more than a tiny fraction of that, you're probably doing something wrong 01:51:05 it's deffinatly wrong 01:51:42 many thousands of variable sized work, about 140 threads on a single core 01:51:59 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:07 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:52:15 *hefner* won't ask 01:52:43 hah, thank you 01:53:16 I know the Right answer... but they won't do that 01:54:04 oh dear. 01:54:32 heh, welcome to corporate life 01:54:50 dto`` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:51 -!- dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:55:00 clhs #: 01:55:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhe.htm 01:56:16 *hefner* especially hopes you aren't broadcasting on a condition variable and waking up all 140 threads every time someone modifies the queue 01:56:33 no... they do that in another place 01:57:32 so... how do you go about getting a job coding lisp professionaly? 01:58:05 I think the standard answer is "by creating one" 01:59:06 *merimus* has grown to deeply deeply hate C++ 02:00:51 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:02:43 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:06:25 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:08:24 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-132-8-72.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 02:11:29 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:12:01 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:12:05 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p28062-ipngn601marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:13:23 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:17:54 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-37.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:27 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2E76B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:24:40 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-197-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:27:09 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:30 -!- ubun00b is now known as ubun00b^zzz 02:32:21 clim draw-lines* 02:32:22 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/12-5.html#_625 02:38:15 herbieB: Hey, don't know if you got this before, but when doing (require 'mcclim) in sbcl, Nekthuth gags (or something....) 02:39:42 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:41:56 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:42:43 lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has joined #lisp 02:44:48 Interesting. 02:49:38 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-1-15.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 02:56:46 -!- couloir [n=chatzill@96.49.120.130] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:57:34 herbieB: I don't know if you ever do mcclim stuff; it seems to be a parsing error. If it's no issue for you, I can have a look at it some time and maybe send you a patch? 02:57:46 Sikander: Sure. 02:57:58 I never do mcclim 02:58:14 GrayMagiker [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:32 is there any way to get loop to iterate backwards? 03:00:23 herbieB: ah, so I'm recently "into" clim... 03:00:31 I'll keep you posted 03:00:42 Cool :) 03:01:34 Sikander: Try the remote nekthuth. 03:01:50 jlf [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:02:09 couloir [n=chatzill@96.49.120.130] has joined #lisp 03:03:07 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 03:03:55 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:04 Ralith: if you do that it'll keep chanting "hail satan hail satan" 03:05:42 merimus: I just realized that 'do' will do the same job more concisely, actually. 03:07:14 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-233-205.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:07:45 Ralith: You mean like (loop for x from 10 downto 0 ...)? 03:07:49 herbieB: I start sbcl, (require 'nekthuth) (nekthuth:start-remote) and in vi run NekthuthRemote and evaluate (require 'mcclim). Gives me the same problems 03:08:05 rtoym: that sounds right. Seems kind of weird that one can't just use 'to' 03:08:16 hi, i'm seeing the error "The value #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X00102FC0) is not of type (SB-ALIEN:ALIEN (* (SB-ALIEN:UNSIGNED 8)))." when doing (elephant:get-from-root 'foo). i'm using sbcl 1.0.28.70 on osx/intel. has anyone seen this? 03:08:17 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:08:33 rtoym: yeah, that works nicely. Already wrote the 'do' solution though. 03:08:36 herbieB: A whole bunch of white-on-red with the message Error detected while processing CursorMoved Auto commands for "*" 03:08:42 Ralith: I think that's because in general loop won't know which way to adjust the index. 03:08:58 hm, I suppose that sort of makes sense. 03:09:10 Sikander: Wow. I ahve no idea. 03:09:42 herbieB: It's pretty awesome. Useless, but awesome :) I'll figure it out. thanks 03:10:11 Ralith: Plus, does (loop for x from 10 to 0 ...) mean count from 10 to 0, or an empty loop because the end is less than the beginning. 03:10:16 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:10:25 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:10:27 rtoym: good point. 03:13:30 clim draw-arrow 03:13:31 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/12-5.html#_639 03:14:37 -!- merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:15:48 -!- GrayMagiker [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:16:44 -!- lolsuper_ [n=super@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:18:25 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:22:54 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-140-190.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:29 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:23:42 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:29:01 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 03:31:55 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 03:33:06 clim with-scaling 03:33:06 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/10-2.html#_534 03:33:44 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:44 As far as I can tell, scaling does not affect line thicknesses. Is this correct in all cases? 03:35:27 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-163-26.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:53 correct. (I think it should. I fixed that in a copy of mcclim around here somewhere, but never got it quite right on the postscript backend, and never got around to fixing it) 03:36:33 hefner: you think it should be that it scales the thicknesses? In that case, it would be nice to also have a scaling that doesn't. (a-la tikz) 03:37:26 is there a rationale for that other than the default, magic, nicely sized (infinitely thin or whatever) line width? 03:38:03 (and I don't think "I'm using with-scaling and don't feel like inverting the transformation to get an appropriate line width" is a great reason) 03:38:13 the rationale is that you can "scale" a drawing (increasing "detail") without lines becoming gigantic in thickness 03:38:45 it's basically an environment you place around a drawing to just scale the coordinates, but not the widths 03:39:11 well, luckily, that's what you have, because there's little danger of me changing it any time soon. 03:39:39 it's not that that's the behaviour I want, more that I know what the behaviour is and that I can depend on that 03:40:09 hefner: I don't understand why you couldn't get the postscript to work. It's basically a transformation on the coordinates, so it should affect the linethickness in PS 03:40:40 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:42 it seems that the backend must do some calculations to do scaling as it is now in clim 03:41:08 drafael [n=tapio@130.216.92.183] has joined #lisp 03:41:16 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:41:27 moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 03:41:50 (scaling thicknesses also sucks when you have different x and y scalings) 03:42:08 I don't recall the specific issue, other than it not being perfect 03:42:50 Ok, but thickness scaling _really_ sucks if sx and sy are not equal 03:43:28 can't correct for that with inverse transforms unless you break apart the drawing into horizontal and vertical line segments 03:43:52 (maybe _that_'s the tikz rationale) 03:44:16 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:34 that's a valid point, and also an irritation when I was playing with the code. not that I was going to actually scale the lines, because line drawing interfaces tend not to support that anyway 03:45:25 (it'd be free if we rendered thick lines as polygons, but we don't) 03:45:36 and as you say, you might not want that anyway. 03:45:56 Anyway, I know what the situation is now (and that it won't change any time soon). It's weird that I couldn't find a specific YES or NO answer to this question in the spec. Maybe I'm blind, though... Thanks 03:46:11 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-197-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:32 I probably looked at it long enough to conclude this wasn't prohibited, but I don't recall the details. 03:47:11 ok, thanks 03:47:54 clim line-style-unit 03:47:54 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/10-3.html#_548 03:48:22 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 03:48:55 mcclim doesn't handle these units correctly at present, but that's the key to getting both behaviors you'd want (transformations with fixed line width in the :normal coordinate system, or line width scaling with the drawing in the :coordinate system) 03:49:10 aha, the answer is always hidden in the _other_ place! 03:49:27 current mcclim always behaves as :normal 03:49:39 :coordinate isn't implemented? 03:49:59 oh, right, sorry 03:50:49 (they should've referred to line-style-unit in the make-scaling-transformation section) 03:54:11 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:40 -!- Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.121.200] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:04:07 -!- knobo [n=user@216-55-7.100710.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:07:42 drforr_ [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:55 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068210006.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:46 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 04:11:51 good morning 04:12:12 Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 04:12:15 hi 04:13:07 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:17:38 -!- ubun00b^zzz [n=ubuntu@82-170-227-71.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:17:54 deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has joined #lisp 04:18:21 -!- deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has quit [Client Quit] 04:18:54 -!- drforr [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:23:55 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068210006.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has left #lisp 04:26:57 [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.177] has joined #lisp 04:28:19 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:31:52 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 04:34:02 Yay! My first non-trivial macro works! And it draws graphs in clim! 04:34:26 now to figure out how to provide keyword options when there's also a body involved.... 04:34:42 Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 04:36:04 the usual pattern for macros is to have the first arg a list including whatever required bits and random keywords (as in with-open-file) 04:36:15 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.129.96] has joined #lisp 04:36:58 this is such a fine idea that I usually write macros with bodies that way even if they don't need any other args at all (just in case.. plus then it looks consistent) 04:37:10 with-open-file pops off the first item and then uses get with the rest? 04:37:50 I mean, it treats the rest as if it was a plist? 04:38:07 (or is that an alist, I am confused now) 04:38:45 thanks for the tip btw 04:40:11 thom__ [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:32 what is the name of the nondestructive version of replace? 04:41:44 Sikander: macros destructure their arguments, as if by magic: (defmacro with-frobsicle ((stream &key lemon lime) &body body) ...) 04:42:25 hefner: wow! Great, thanks! 04:44:55 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 04:44:59 clim draw-text 04:44:59 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/12-5.html#_636 04:47:40 clim with-rotation 04:47:41 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/10-2.html#_535 04:50:49 gmlk [n=gmlk@alicia.demon.nl] has joined #lisp 04:51:21 hefner: sorry to bother you again; the clx backend of clim cannot rotate text? 04:53:06 no vertical y-labels for my graphs? :( 04:53:18 sorry, no. X11 doesn't do that. 04:53:47 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:53:49 yeah, that's where I stalled on my plotting code the other night too. "This looks really good. There's the x-label, now how about that y-label? Darn." 04:53:53 wait, that's an X11 problem?! Damn 04:54:07 yeah, got a nice x-label... 04:54:15 X11 sucks 04:54:39 well.. a classic X11 bitmap font would look especially awful rotated. 04:54:58 not if it's exactly 90 degrees... 04:55:02 (nevermind that I'm using freetype and xrender, but xrender is kind of a piece of crap too. but maybe it can rotate text. hmm.) 04:55:07 well, unless you don't have square pixels 04:55:07 ah, true. 04:55:33 I was tempted to draw the label into a pixmap, grab the pixels, flip them around, and draw it back. 04:55:51 Sick... I'm using freetype as well. What's the added value of xrender? And is that require mcclim-xrender? 04:56:12 (isn't xrender for alpha?) 04:56:39 xrender is doing all the work. to do AA text without xrender would really suck, no alpha, yeah. 04:57:15 does mcclim-freetype automatically load the xrender extension? I guess so, because I have aa text 04:57:19 the design is that we render individual character glyphs, upload them through xrender, and then use its text drawing call to quickly draw strings of glyphs 04:58:11 *hefner* wonders why he's never bookmarked the xrender specification, with all the trouble he has had finding the current version 05:00:07 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-135-51.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 05:02:27 milanj [n=milan@77.46.249.109] has joined #lisp 05:09:34 the cheesy thing you could do is draw the characters vertically in a row (without rotating them) 05:12:20 hefner: Yeah, I'll probably do that. For now, I'll do the cheezier thing and write the y-label at the top of the y-axis 05:17:47 Is it possible to "combine" presentations? I.e. I have two data sets, and each has a "line-view" presentation, which are both plotted in the same graphic (and still have gestures for each separately)? 05:22:11 not sure what you're looking for. you have presentations of the same type coming from two sets, and you want a different gesture to apply to each set? 05:22:19 (what does the gesture do?) 05:24:12 is the problem that they overlap sometimes? 05:25:34 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-3-142.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 05:27:40 What I was thinking about (but this might be insanely stupid, impossible, slow, retarded or any combination of those) is the ability to present two datatypes. The presentation is basically a line plot. The thing is, they plot in the same graph (same graphic on-screen) 05:28:21 Then I want to add a gesture that gives the coordinates of the data point of the dataset to which you are pointing to. Something stupid like that... 05:28:34 (to which you are pointing.) 05:32:00 if you plot a dot at point inside your data point presentation, that should just work (redundant in that you draw the lines and then have to go and draw the points again, but I don't see a real problem with that) 05:35:42 Ok, but overlapping graphical presentations (e.g. two lines crossing, where each line is a presentation of another object) is not a problem? 05:36:27 don't put the lines inside presentations is what I'm saying. they're just for decoration. it's the data points you're actually interested in, right? 05:37:03 I guess what you're thinking is you can wrap the whole polyline in one presentation representing the dataset, and then query the points out of it? 05:37:05 Ah... 05:37:16 Yes, last thing you said 05:37:41 well, that's more work that it's worth for most purposes, I think. 05:37:51 (than) 05:38:08 I have a textual-view (just a table), a "dot" view (plotted points) and a "line" view (polyline). I don't know if this is what I want to stick with (having plot style as a different view), but it's what I was playing around with. 05:38:44 -!- couloir [n=chatzill@96.49.120.130] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:38:48 So you are suggesting not having a graphical presentation at all, or just the dot view? 05:39:01 oh, actually, having the presentation for the dataset is good, if you want to refer to the dataset as a whole. 05:39:29 but inside of that you should have presentations for the points, and that's what your command should accept, if I underestand you right. 05:39:30 Ah... now I see... you meant just one data entry having its own presentation... 05:39:53 I need to sort a list passed as an argument, I add (setf items (sort #'> (copy-list items))) as the first line in my func but the sorted results don't appear to take. Isn't this the rightway to do it? 05:39:53 wait, you are on to something there. Seems "cleaner" (or at least, more modular) 05:40:02 joachifm [n=joachim@ti132110a340-3137.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 05:40:46 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 05:41:20 thom__: I think (setf items (sort #'> items)) should work, why do you use an extra copy-list? 05:41:23 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-14-177.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:42:09 sort can destructively modify the input 05:42:21 so you don't even need the setf 05:42:24 can I assume my argument is a fresh cons? this is sbcl, I thought it safer since I wasn't sure. just trying to get something working 05:43:00 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.129.96] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:43:00 *hefner* has never known has to explain variable scope and why setf'ing an argument to modify it in the caller doesn't work 05:43:19 (never known how to explain, that is) 05:43:50 setf'ing an argument is bad then? 05:44:11 Sikander: the necessity of the copy-list depends on where the original list came from and whether someone else still has a pointer to it. 05:44:17 i.e. known to not work 05:44:18 Wait, if I try it without the copy-list in sbcl, it works fine 05:44:27 oh, right... 05:44:39 *Sikander* still has much to learn... 05:45:28 ah... and sort is destructive so... 05:45:29 right 05:46:20 but then... (setf items (sort (copy-list items) #'>)) should work fine 05:46:42 thom__: your argument is a variable containing a pointer to the list (or rather the first cons cell in the list). its caller may have a variable pointing to the list as well, as you seem to suggest. they're separate variables, even if they have the same name. 05:46:50 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.249.109] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:47:20 ah... 05:47:34 scary stuff... 05:48:53 right... so isn't copy-list going to make a copy of that list, sort destructively sorts it, and the setf set the cel for the argument to point to the sorted copy?? 05:49:47 <_3b> it assigns to the binding created by the argument, which has no relation to anything in the caller 05:50:07 <_3b> (aside from something in the caller having been used to initialize that binding when the function was called) 05:50:24 right which is what I want. I just want the callee's version to be sorted 05:50:36 <_3b> so within the function, items should be sorted, and the caller should be unaffected 05:50:53 lisppaste 05:50:55 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has joined #lisp 05:51:03 <_3b> lisppaste: url 05:51:03 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 05:52:19 thom__ pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81965 05:52:33 that is the code as it stands 05:53:18 <_3b> clhs sort 05:53:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sort_.htm 05:54:03 <_3b> you should use a better lisp if the one you have lets you try to sort #'> :) 05:54:17 god bless sbcl :P 05:54:23 oops 05:54:42 <_3b> (or if you turned off safety, don't do that) 05:54:56 why are you printing itemsfoo? 05:55:09 (I guess it doesn't matter, unless you meant to print items) 05:55:25 *_3b* assumed it was for debugging 05:55:44 was just for debugging 05:56:44 fusss [n=chatzill@121.216.162.132] has joined #lisp 05:57:06 yous guys, i have been logged off for two days and viola, web browsers are serving pages 05:57:23 the rich-client hype is at an all time high! 05:57:39 argh, PCL skipped over listing dir contents. 05:58:07 oh wait, I just skipped the para. 05:58:15 Ralith: (directory "*/*") does it in clisp, (directory "/*") in sbcl 05:58:30 er, that seems like a portability problem. 05:58:54 no one sane uses directory 05:59:00 what do sane people use? 05:59:16 dunno, ask one 05:59:36 let me rephrase that 05:59:39 what would you recommend 06:00:01 Ralith: cl-fad is much touted but seldom used 06:00:08 seldom used? why's that? 06:00:09 probably using directory and cursing 06:00:16 maybe ripping off code from cl-fad 06:00:19 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 06:00:30 cl-fad:list-directory 06:00:57 depends on the application. if I'm out and about on the filesystem, like scanning my music library, I skip all that and use sb-posix calls. 06:00:57 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-197-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:01:10 Ralith: cl-fad occupies that sweet spot between "kludge it in 2 lines of unportable code" and "just copy it from cl-fad" 06:01:26 heh 06:01:30 *Ralith* grabs it. 06:02:50 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.132.61] has joined #lisp 06:04:16 hsaliak_ [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 06:05:13 *hefner* attempts to list his home directory in clisp, control-Ds through several dozen stupid character encoding errors, finally smashes it on a rock and throws it in the sea 06:06:37 okay, list-directory pulls in so much stuff that I might as well depend explicitly. 06:07:50 all that shouldn't be necessary. I'm looking at list-directory in the clim listener, and it's just a half dozen two or three line definitions for different lisps. 06:07:51 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.130.57] has joined #lisp 06:08:20 oh, but I'm neglecting all the pathname pain. 06:08:21 xinming__ [n=hyy@125.109.243.153] has joined #lisp 06:08:28 *hefner* doesn't want to think about it 06:08:53 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:09:40 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:09:47 i wonder if there are people capable of programming in the face of such adversities as friends, loved ones, live music, barbeque and beer 06:09:56 my productivity is suffering 06:11:30 fad does the job nicely. 06:12:02 :-) 06:12:26 arg... does such a function exist and, if so, what is it named (find/search/arg 3 '(1 2 3)) ==> boolean 06:13:10 clhs find 06:13:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_.htm 06:13:12 clhs member 06:13:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_member.htm 06:13:22 clhs position 06:13:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pos_p.htm 06:14:26 later 06:14:28 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@121.216.162.132] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 06:15:36 d'oh. misread spec 06:16:17 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.247.131] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:17:13 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:17:27 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:18:20 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 06:22:23 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:25:15 mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 06:25:39 hello 06:25:53 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:26:42 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.253.67] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.132.61] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:29:20 -!- xinming__ [n=hyy@125.109.243.153] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:29:23 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.230.219] has joined #lisp 06:40:36 Is there a convenient way to iterate over a list and while doing so replace an element? 06:40:37 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.253.67] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:41:09 basically, something like dolist except where setf'ing the variable will apply to the list being iterated over? 06:42:41 wait, nevermind 06:43:40 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 06:45:27 -!- drafael [n=tapio@130.216.92.183] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:45:39 Ralith: Just cons up a new list and use MAPCAR 06:50:21 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:50:48 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 06:51:19 couloir [n=chatzill@S0106001a706b09fb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:51 Adlai [n=Adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 06:51:57 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@82.125.228.135] has joined #lisp 06:52:23 Can anybody help me? I'm having huge problems with SLIME 06:52:33 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:52:34 what's the problem? 06:52:42 rather, what are they? 06:52:50 I wrote a post about it on comp.lang.lisp; can I link to that? 06:53:06 sure 06:53:07 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/d433ccc4023ca949# 06:54:44 hm 06:54:57 weird 06:55:03 I have absolutely no idea why this happened. 06:56:00 I had used slime a few times since setting it up on this computer, but only when I was reading some source code. 06:56:12 I started working on a project today, and it blew up like that. 06:56:25 good morning 06:58:24 Adlai: Do not check out fairly_stable 06:58:27 Adlai: just cvs head 06:58:39 ok. Let me see if that works. 06:58:42 then place (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) into your ~/.emacs 06:58:58 the manual at the website is dated 06:59:07 read the manual in the doc/ directory in your checkout 07:00:48 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:02:12 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:02:38 ejs [n=eugen@95.135.94.254] has joined #lisp 07:10:49 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:11:49 -!- ejs [n=eugen@95.135.94.254] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:11:54 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-208.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:12:08 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-2-11.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:31 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-2-11.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:13:18 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:13:23 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:13:30 -!- thom__ [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:13:54 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:14:39 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-2-11.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:56 How do I build the manual in the /doc info of Slime? 07:21:07 -!- blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:21:55 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:06 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:23:30 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 07:24:54 takehiko [i=d114539f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-24111a74c66077a1] has joined #lisp 07:25:10 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:27:13 Hello? 07:27:25 Can somebody please help me with slime? 07:27:46 cd slime/doc 07:27:48 make 07:27:50 BozoClown [n=Extra@S0106001cf0b93f82.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:02 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 07:28:15 -!- KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-1-241.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:29:11 Does anyone track clozure cl with git-svn? 07:30:22 my local repo become huge in size -- 1.3 G 07:30:41 And wonder if there's a way to cut it down 07:30:53 did you try the gc thingie? 07:31:05 yes. 07:32:21 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:33:11 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:33:14 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:37:06 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:37:41 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has left #lisp 07:38:08 roidrage [n=roidrage@p54BE9671.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:40:56 Adlai [n=Adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 07:41:22 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:46:16 plage [n=user@118.68.34.65] has joined #lisp 07:46:19 Good afternoon 07:47:50 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 07:48:07 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has left #lisp 07:48:19 -!- takehiko [i=d114539f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-24111a74c66077a1] has left #lisp 07:49:18 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:50:05 aja [n=aja@68.151.58.116] has joined #lisp 07:50:59 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:51:41 Adlai [n=Adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 07:53:15 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-208.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:57:15 Thank you tcr and hefner for helping me earlier. 07:57:24 My slime is working once again. 07:59:34 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@75.36.204.63] has joined #lisp 08:04:44 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-208.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:06:37 info 2 27250964: 08:06:46 gah! 08:07:03 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:07:05 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:08:11 blandest [n=blandest@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 08:10:10 ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 08:12:03 -!- _bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit ["off to work"] 08:14:17 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 08:15:25 kiuma [n=kiuma@proxy.emea.fedex.com] has joined #lisp 08:15:45 'moin 08:15:47 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:17:10 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.220.32.16] has joined #lisp 08:17:38 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["leaving"] 08:21:58 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:27:35 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:27:41 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-197-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:00 -!- BozoClown [n=Extra@S0106001cf0b93f82.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:29:55 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:30:03 BozoClown [n=Extra@206.75.128.211] has joined #lisp 08:31:32 Taggnostr2 [n=x@130.232.126.213] has joined #lisp 08:33:32 galiley [n=user@77.70.2.99] has joined #lisp 08:33:52 -!- galiley [n=user@77.70.2.99] has quit [Client Quit] 08:39:08 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:39:58 Adlai [n=Adlai@93.173.254.22] has joined #lisp 08:41:02 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 08:41:52 -!- aja [n=aja@68.151.58.116] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 08:43:55 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 08:45:09 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.130.57] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:47:13 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:48:05 Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 08:52:05 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-6450.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 08:54:37 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@218.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 08:54:51 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6CCBB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:50 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@121.1.221.62] has joined #lisp 08:56:38 How do you guys comment out a region in emacs? 08:57:09 M-; 08:57:13 #-(and) 08:57:50 tomoyuki28jp: paredit and M-; 08:57:54 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@75.36.204.63] has quit [] 08:57:58 blandest: Yours works nice! thanks! 08:58:01 fe[nl]ix: thanks! 08:58:18 rectangle selection of the region and ';' :) 08:58:18 ASau [n=user@host31-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 08:58:19 tomoyuki28jp: same shortcut to uncomment 08:58:22 sykopomp: It's bit a long to type :( 08:58:32 tomoyuki28jp: it comments out s-exps 08:58:39 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:58:44 aerique: yeah, I have been doing that, but I thought there would be better way. 08:58:50 put it in front of the sexp you want to comment out, and voila. 08:59:06 blandest: oh yeah, it works for uncomment too! thanks :) 08:59:07 i was just adding to the list 08:59:21 mega1 [n=mega@pool-05a89.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:59:52 Emacs: better at "there's more than one way to do it" than Perl 09:00:15 sounds like it's more applicable to lisp. 09:00:37 which theoretically has infinite ways to do the same thing :P 09:02:05 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@93.173.254.22] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:03:47 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@130.232.126.213] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:04:13 what, no #+nil fans around? 09:04:27 hefner: I sometimes still use #+nil 09:05:04 hefner: but I kept seeing #-(and) everywhere. I'm not sure what the advantage/disadvantage is. 09:05:11 I played around with #+test so that I can write tests after function definitions, but that didn't work out too well 09:05:17 besides being able to push :nil into *features* and breaking everything. 09:05:20 the - tells you that the code is taken _out_ 09:07:33 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.253.67] has joined #lisp 09:07:33 #-(and) is too hard to type compared to #+nil, anyway 09:07:38 Adlai [n=Adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 09:07:41 yeah 09:07:50 sort of 09:08:11 -!- ASau [n=user@host31-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:08:14 <_3b> #+_ is easy to type :) 09:08:19 not on querty keyboard :) 09:08:27 ASau [n=user@host31-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 09:08:32 qwerty even 09:09:12 <_3b> actually, i guess #++ is even easier, and more confusing too :) 09:09:23 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["b"] 09:09:32 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 09:09:38 #+() looks good, if you haven't remapped your parens 09:10:06 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.220.32.16] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:10:44 srsly, #+(or) is the only way to go 09:11:55 #+this-makes-everything-crash!? <-- maybe treat it as documentation? 09:13:30 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 09:13:33 or: #+(and this makes everything crash) 09:13:45 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 09:13:55 *Maddas* grins 09:14:19 I think I'm gonna have to start using this... 09:14:25 jdz: I remapped most of the special characters ([^0-9a-zA-Z]) in Emacs anyway :-) 09:14:37 (Not that I use qwerty, but the remapping is unrelated to that) 09:14:52 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 09:15:06 *sykopomp* finds that a remapped dvorak is particularly smooth for lisping. 09:15:31 dvorak is quite smooth enough for me even unremapped 09:15:37 what have you remapped? I'm using standard dvorak 09:15:51 I swapped () and <> 09:16:07 isn't that a pain for typing normal sentences? 09:16:14 ., 09:16:17 why would it be? 09:16:25 it's just () and <> 09:16:29 ,. are still where they were. 09:16:30 oh, I see 09:16:36 okay, fair enough then 09:16:43 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-211.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 09:16:49 dvorak also has - right by the pinky, which is great :) 09:16:51 pretty good idea actually 09:17:26 KingNato_ [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 09:17:32 couloir_ [n=chatzill@S0106001a706b09fb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:51 -!- ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has quit [Success] 09:18:15 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:19:03 sykopomp: #+(and) and #-(and) is the consensus super portable way to do #if 1 / #if 0 ; The problem with #+nil is that there is a New Implementation of Lisp whose name was NIL and for which :NIL would supposedly be pushed on *FEATURES*. 09:19:34 and same for :this, :makes :everything and :crash... 09:19:45 matimago: yup. 09:20:07 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 09:20:09 the likelihood of having (and :this :makes :everything :crash) in *features* is pretty low, though :) 09:20:21 Not once you already have these keywords in the image. 09:20:33 hm 09:20:59 (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :the-hyper-interactive-spec) --> :this on *features* ! etc. 09:21:00 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 09:21:06 :-) 09:21:07 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Client Quit] 09:22:32 well, sykopomp forgot to put the !? in there somewhere too 09:22:37 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:22:52 like (and this makes everything crash !!!) 09:23:19 (defun !!! (x) (fact (fact (fact x)))) (pushnew :!!! *features*) 09:23:35 With even a #-!!! before 09:23:46 matimago: then you deserve what you get 09:24:06 My maso day. 09:26:39 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:26:41 -!- jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:26:58 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 09:27:05 -!- BozoClown [n=Extra@206.75.128.211] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:28:45 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@218.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:29:30 -!- couloir [n=chatzill@S0106001a706b09fb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:33:19 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:36:38 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-105-39.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:40:05 I've just started reading about macros, and I've got question. There is no way to change the value of function's argument? I have to write macro to do it? 09:40:45 mrSpec: Neither. Ifyou want to change the value of a variable, use SETF : (let ((a 10)) (setf a (fact a)) a) 09:41:30 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-197-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:41:38 mrSpec: now, you really may have a metalinguistic abstraction where modifying the value of a variable is meaningfull. In this case, you may write a macro, like PUSH, INCF, etc. 09:41:39 but I think about something like: (defun foo (var) (setq var )) 09:41:46 No. 09:41:47 <_3b> you can't change a binding used to provide a value for an argument from within that function 09:41:54 ah ok 09:41:58 var is its own variable. 09:42:01 I always work on copy ? 09:42:05 <_3b> you can change the binding within the function, or change the contents of the variable 09:42:29 mrSpec: not necessarily. This is something else. 09:42:29 mrSpec: you're changing the binding of the parameter var, not the var that var was passed in as. 09:42:30 <_3b> sorry, contents of the object, not contents of the variable 09:42:41 ah 09:42:46 mrSpec: if you pass a vector to the function, the vector is not copied. So you can mutate the vector. But you cannot change the binding between the variable in the calling scope and that vector. 09:43:10 complitated :D but I think I got it. 09:43:27 If you pass a list, for example, you could do "list surgery" on the insides. 09:43:29 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-193-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["leaving"] 09:43:39 (flet ((f1 (v) (setf v (vector 0 0 0)) #|useless|#) (f2 (v) (setf (aref v 0) 0))) (let ((a (vector 1 2 3))) (f1 a) (print a) (f2 a) (print a) (values))) 09:44:06 tic [n=tic@c83-249-193-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:44:17 sec, I'll try it :) 09:46:21 ok, so I can change every element on vector or list, but I will be still the same list? am I right? 09:46:34 it will be* 09:46:40 What do you mean by "same list"? 09:46:59 What is passed as an arg to the function, is a binding to the initial cons of a list. 09:47:07 In the case of a vector, it would be just a binding to the vector. 09:47:34 ahh ok :D 09:47:39 f1 just changes a binding, while f2 changes a value behind the binding. 09:48:09 oki. Thanks. 09:48:35 mrSpec: indeed, mutating an object doesn't change its identity. It's the same object before and after its change of state (changing the value of one of its slots). 09:48:37 now I see why macros are really needed 09:49:10 Macros make it possible to change the variable binding, although if you needed to, you could do "list surgery" within a function. 09:49:13 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 09:49:47 mrSpec: but stylistically, it may be better to avoid macros such as INCF, PUSH. These macros work for procedural programming. Functional programming, or declarative programming is often a better style. 09:50:14 ok, could you give me an example (as simply as possible) where macro is needed ? 09:50:28 and good style ? ;) 09:50:36 mrSpec: it's needed when you want to encapsulate a syntactic abstraction. 09:51:35 ok, I will read what is syntactic abstractiion first. 09:51:42 mrSpec, the first example I can think of, of a macro which behaves in this way, is setf 09:51:50 mrSpec: Let's take the example of IF. You could (defun if* (bool then else) (cond ((bool (funcall then)) (t (funcall else))))) and write (if* (= a 0) (lambda () (print 'zero)) (lambda () (print 'non-zero))) 09:52:11 setf isn't a simple example, but it's a macro for modifying variables in the context where it's called. 09:52:42 but writing macros like setf is bad style, yeah ? 09:52:51 mrSpec: then it would be worthwhile to hide the boiler plate lambda: (defmacro if+ (test then else) `(if* ,test (lambda () ,then) (lambda () ,else))) 09:53:00 mrSpec, setf is already written for you. 09:53:03 (if+ (= a 0) (print 'zero) (print 'not-zero)) 09:53:06 (defmacro nil! (var) (list `setq var nil)) 09:53:14 Adlai: yeah, I know ;) 09:53:32 matimago: ok, I'll copy it to emacs and take a look. 09:53:34 minion: tell mrSpec about sicp 09:53:34 mrSpec: direct your attention towards sicp: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available gratis from (HTML), (texinfo) and (XHTML, PDF). Accompanying video lectures are available gratis at 09:53:49 mrSpec: You could clean up your macro to (defmacro nil! (var) `(setq ,var nil)) 09:53:57 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit ["leaving"] 09:54:16 mrSpec: and beyond syntactic abstraction, you may use macros for metalinguistic abstractions, that is, when you invent new language elements. 09:54:21 couloir [n=chatzill@S0106001a706b09fb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:54:28 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:54:59 Is minion a bot? 09:55:10 minion: are you a bot? 09:55:11 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 09:55:38 minion: Sorry for the confusion. Nice to meet you. 09:55:39 i enjoy to meet me too 09:55:43 mrSpec: (macroexpand '(infix a*x^2+b*x+c)) --> (+ (* a (expt x 2)) (* b x) c) INFIX would be a macro. 09:55:43 HAH 09:57:38 matimago: we cant do it using function ? 09:58:04 changing infix to prefix notation? 09:58:09 mrSpec: in this case you don't want to evaluate the symbol a*x^2+b*x+c 09:58:22 mrSpec: you want to take its name, and parse it to produce the expression. 09:58:44 mrSpec: when you don't want to have some arguments evaluated, you may either use quote, or write a macro. 09:58:46 mrSpec: notice that matimago's example was using a symbol, not a string. 09:58:57 yeah, so quote isnt simplier ? :D 09:59:04 sorry for this newbie questions 09:59:16 ah, symbols 09:59:24 mrSpec: notice also that it wouldn't always be a symbol: (infix (a+b)*(c+d)) would be read as (infix (a+b) * (c+d)) 09:59:34 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:38 mrSpec: quote is sometimes just a nuisance, but there are also advantages sometimes to using macros. 10:00:14 you could write a function: (infix* '(a+b) '* '(c+d)) and (defmacro infix (&rest exprs) `(infix* ,@(mapcar (lambda (x) `',x) exprs))) 10:00:16 i am sure there are advantages, as macros are so popular. 10:01:21 mrSpec: Here is a great example of a macro, which would be very awkward to imitate with a function. 10:01:33 mrSpec: but notice also that the arguments passed to INFIX are entirely processed at macroexpansion time (eg. at compilation time). There's no a+b symbol relevant at run-time. So it's smarter to avoid (infix* 'a+b). 10:01:47 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@ti132110a340-3137.bb.online.no] has quit [Client Quit] 10:01:57 ah ok 10:02:07 mrSpec: (this is copied from Practical Common Lisp, chapter 9, by Peter Seibel) 10:02:11 mrSpec: (defmacro check (form) `(report-result ,form ',form)) 10:02:25 I've been writing my infix-to-prefix translator, so I have a lot of problems with this. 10:02:57 no I see I should have read about macros earlier ;) 10:03:09 now* 10:03:30 mrSpec: I recommend PCL, it's available for free online, and it's very well written. 10:03:40 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 10:03:49 minion: tell mrSpec about onlisp 10:03:50 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``onlisp''. 10:04:01 minion: tell mrSpec about pcl 10:04:02 mrSpec: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 10:04:07 I have on lisp, i've read first chapter about macros 10:04:10 minion: add onlisp as: An advanced textbook on Common Lisp, with special focus on macros. at http://www.cliki.net/On%20Lisp 10:04:11 OK, done. 10:04:14 minion: tell mrSpec about onlisp 10:04:15 mrSpec: look at onlisp: An advanced textbook on Common Lisp, with special focus on macros. at http://www.cliki.net/On%20Lisp 10:04:32 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:32 ok. so PCL of On Lisp ? :D 10:04:44 as first book about macros ;) 10:04:44 all 10:04:54 PCL has an introductory-level treatment of macros in chapters 7 and 8 10:05:07 and then deals with them in greater depth in practical studies, in later chapters. 10:05:09 while we are at the book topic. apart from those two anymore books on lisp that are freely available online 10:05:27 minion: tell krumholt about successfulllisp 10:05:28 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``successfulllisp''. 10:05:30 hm 10:05:52 got it thanks 10:05:53 minion: tell mrSpec about casting 10:05:54 mrSpec: direct your attention towards casting: Casting Spells in Lisp is a tutorial about macros, at http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 10:06:33 matimago: Can I tell minion about Successful Lisp as "successful-lisp"? 10:06:34 I will have many books to read during my holidays :D 10:06:51 aquateen [n=chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:01 mrSpec: the Casting Spells tutorial is quite quick. It's not a full book. 10:07:22 Adlai: yes. /msg minion help /msg minion help adding terms 10:09:03 -!- couloir_ [n=chatzill@S0106001a706b09fb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:09:48 minion: add successful-lisp as: Successful Lisp is a book providing an all-around summary of Common Lisp, available online at http://www.psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/ 10:09:49 OK, done. 10:10:06 minion: tell krumholt about successful-lisp 10:10:07 krumholt: please see successful-lisp: Successful Lisp is a book providing an all-around summary of Common Lisp, available online at http://www.psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/ 10:10:25 Adlai, thx 10:10:51 krumholt: np, sorry to use you as a guinea pig with minion :) 10:10:57 np 10:11:14 lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 10:11:51 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 10:12:37 ah and one more question, not about macros. in solving what kinds of problems lisp is faster than other languages, like Icon/python/ruby? have you made any comparisons ? 10:13:00 mrSpec: it's faster when it can avoid doing computations. 10:13:21 mrSpec: eg. you may have a physics engine where you must test for collision between a lot of objects. 10:13:30 n-bodies problem ? 10:13:33 matimago: In general, wouldn't Lisp be faster than Python or Ruby, because it can be compiled? 10:13:35 Yes. 10:13:48 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:02 mrSpec: but then, if you extract symbol equations of movements of the objects, you can demonstrate that some subsets of objects just cannot interact, and then avoid testing their collision. 10:14:29 symbolic computation may represent a lot of numerical computation. 10:14:41 so lisp will be faster in solving this problem ? 10:15:01 It's a kind of problem where a lisp solution may prove more efficient, yes. 10:15:50 Adlai: python and ruby can be compiled, too. 10:16:00 Adlai: well, compilation is a low level optimization, it is not more worth mentionning that (declare (optimize (speed 3)))... 10:16:00 hmm and any other problems? my lecturer is going to make a test, I have to think about some good problem to solve :D 10:16:13 and I believe one of the python compilers actually incrementally compiles to native code? (is that what psyco does?) 10:16:27 and it's not that lisp will be faster at solving the problem, it's that it might be relatively a lot easier to code in lisp 10:16:43 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.121.172] has joined #lisp 10:17:16 easier to code to lisp programmer ;) 10:17:22 matimago: True, although in a question about speed, I'd think optimizations would be relevant (the only place where they would be) 10:17:37 mrSpec: Coding Lisp is like riding a bike 10:17:50 no it's not 10:17:58 sykopomp: I wasn't aware of those. 10:18:04 mrSpec: have a look at http://franz.com/success/ to get an idea of the range of applications where lisp shines. 10:18:31 thanks matimago, I will. 10:18:42 I mean in the sense that once you get past a certain point, it feels a lot more natural. 10:19:06 Adlai: well, not until you specify what is the "bike" 10:19:53 certain point ? 10:19:57 i can imagine 3 different kinds of bikes and they all would invoke massively different associations to me 10:20:05 mrSpec: Also: what is lisp good for: http://www.ai.sri.com/~delacaze/alu-site/alu/table/good.htm 10:20:06 how many years is needed? ;) 10:20:14 jdz: What do you mean? Forget my confused simile. When you start out, coding in Lisp seems more difficult than it really is, because of the strangeness of the syntax. 10:20:36 mrSpec: I think a few weeks is all it takes to get used to the syntax. 10:20:48 syntax is strange only for people who think that all programming languages should look like C 10:20:55 mrSpec: as for anything: ten years. 10:20:59 but syntas is one, but thinking in language is the other problem. 10:21:21 syntax* 10:21:39 jdz: "1936 - Alonzo Church also invents every language that will ever be but does it better. His lambda calculus is ignored because it is insufficiently C-like. This criticism occurs in spite of the fact that C has not yet been invented." quoted from http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html 10:21:40 mrSpec: once you've read the books already mentionned, be sure to study sicp and paip. 10:22:30 Yeah, I was talking about getting over the syntax, not thinking in the language. 10:22:31 matimago: 10 years ? It means that it will be hard to find lisp job after studies :S 10:23:08 mrSpec: not necessarily. There are some illuminated companies who hires even beginner lispers. 10:23:30 O, It sounds great ;) 10:23:31 mrSpec: It's a metaphor... if you want to program well in Lisp, start programming in Lisp. That's what I've been doing for the past few months. 10:23:31  was ^` originally... http://www.wisdomandwonder.com/link/3022/why-church-chose-lambda 10:24:04 (defmacro ^` (args &body body) `(lambda ,args ,@body)) (mapcar (^` (x) (+ (* 2 x) 1)) '(1 2 3)) 10:24:06 :-) 10:24:49 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:24:50 matimago: As far as abbreviations for lambda go, the one that I think is best is actually from Qi: 10:25:10 (.\ args &body body) 10:25:27 Maybe it could be even better with a comma: ,\ 10:26:11 The comma version wouldn't work in CL though, because of the unquote readmacro. 10:26:54 *Xof* votes for  10:27:26 yes, this is year 2009 10:27:48 Are you using a Unicode escape for the lambda glyph? 10:28:07 Hmm Is it this macro OK ? 10:28:17 erm, not an "escape", no 10:28:54 in some sense, I'm typing the lambda character, and all my software cooperates to treat that in the same way as it would treat, say, the £ character or the  character 10:29:07 I see. 10:29:22 hmm, i have added  to my keyboard layout, but not the capital of it... 10:29:24 lazy me 10:29:29 silenius [n=jl@192.166.201.90] has joined #lisp 10:29:39 jdz: Which key did you vote off the island? 10:29:47 alt-l 10:29:51 oh 10:30:04 well, it might be opt-l for some people ; 10:31:21 jdz: I just turn on the greek layout, and it's easy to switch between that and US with S-Cmd-Space. 10:31:47 meh. compose keys are the way forward 10:32:19 So I can do . then  or , or . 10:32:26 sellout: that's a good idea. except that  is the only greek letter i have added, along with some other things, like  and  10:32:34 The last also works well for Playstation things ;) 10:32:41 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-31-229.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:32:42 cracki [n=cracki@47-146.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:32:54 jdz: What do you use the logic symbols for? 10:33:24 writing solutions to exercises 10:35:12 I've created my own layout, so I can type combining-line-through then subset to get . 10:35:33 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-6450.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:36:06 well, my purpose was not that ambitious :) i just needed dvorak for Latvian :) 10:37:06 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:37:58 http://github.com/kragen/xcompose/tree/master 10:39:40 Xof: what is the Compose key? 10:40:14 it's a key in X11, which lets you type sequences such as Compose ' e to get é 10:40:53 Ah. 10:41:33 Can you set any key as the compose key, or do you have to have a special keyboard? 10:42:02 with X11, approximately everything is customizeable 10:42:32 for instance, my left "windows" key is super and my right windows key is compose 10:42:56 I guess I could use the "Menu" key for compose... it's just sitting there. 10:43:02 SandGorgon_ [n=user@122.162.121.172] has joined #lisp 10:43:14 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181146241.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:44:59 elias` [n=c@81.155.251.189] has joined #lisp 10:46:34 -!- SandGorgon_ [n=user@122.162.121.172] has quit [Client Quit] 10:57:09 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:57:42 and xmodmap is really quite friendly, I wonder what all the fuss is about............. :) 11:04:10 O hai 11:06:44 jmbr [n=jmbr@218.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 11:07:38 *lukego* is grumpy, has nothing to show for a ~ 2 hours xmodmap session trying to make Apple 'command' key reliably be a Meta in a vmware-linux. too many layers ganging up on me :) 11:08:30 surely it "just works" 11:09:06 I once saw a vocal Apple user crash his own Macbook... it was quite amusing. 11:09:37 mine crashes regularly - every time I forget to close minicom before pulling a usb-serial adapter. 11:09:38 (That was in my dark days of WinXP) 11:12:33 joachifm [n=joachim@ti132110a340-3137.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 11:15:28 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.177] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 11:18:11 ruediger [n=ruediger@62.47.153.118] has joined #lisp 11:25:16 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:27:37 plage` [n=user@118.68.34.65] has joined #lisp 11:27:46 Xof: Aloha! 11:27:56 yo 11:28:15 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-41-17.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:28:20 some day I will be able to contribute more to the discussion than different ways to type the lambda character :-/ 11:28:47 Xof: Gotta go soon, but I grabbed your version of portable-clx and imported it into cmucl. It seems to work. There are a few minor tweaks that I had to make. Can I send you the patches? 11:28:54 yes please 11:29:09 I may or may not merge them, but it'll be good to see anyway 11:29:42 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-132-8-72.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:29:51 One is really simple: It's lisp::with-array-data, not kernel::with-array-data. 11:30:16 The other is a cmucl version of open-x-stream. 11:30:31 I can probably cope with those 11:31:13 The last, I think, is to make provide.lisp not croak for cmu, by #+nil'ing out most of it for cmucl. 11:31:40 Anyway, after I do the actual import, I'll send you a patch. 11:31:44 thanks 11:33:05 I don't know how to actually test any of it, but hemlock seems to work, and so does feebs. So it's not totally broken. :-) 11:33:26 -!- hsaliak_ [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:34:14 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.34.65] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:34:27 Gotta run now. Aloha. 11:34:53 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060214]"] 11:35:19 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 11:37:06 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@121.1.221.62] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:38:21 dys` [n=andreas@p5B31709D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:29 -!- Quadrescence is now known as X86-64 11:39:00 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-105-39.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:39:21 -!- X86-64 is now known as Quadrescence 11:39:57 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 11:41:07 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:44:01 -!- plage` is now known as plage 11:44:22 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B3141B7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:44:24 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:45:42 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:46:35 dalton [n=ebsjux@189-19-127-108.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 11:50:07 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-163-26.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:54:17 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 11:55:02 hello 11:55:22 Hi 11:57:11 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:03:26 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:03:34 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:45 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:13:22 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@ti132110a340-3137.bb.online.no] has quit [Client Quit] 12:15:29 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:16:15 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:16:31 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:28 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@218.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:20:42 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:21:55 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-208.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:23:15 drafael [n=tapio@118.90.135.34] has joined #lisp 12:27:40 wormilwork [n=Miranda@adsl-070-155-056-058.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:37 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-27-121.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 12:37:48 -!- silenius [n=jl@192.166.201.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:40:10 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:43:05 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-48-50.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:36 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B146.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:32 whr [i=whr@91.203.134.77] has joined #lisp 12:51:35 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A32C7.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:53:07 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:57 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@p54BE9671.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:04:51 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:05:01 blakkino [n=BLaCk@82.84.115.218] has joined #lisp 13:05:44 Jasko [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:16 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B458.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:02 s0ber [i=pie@114-45-230-77.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:18 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:11:24 dlowe [n=dlowe@24.91.154.83] has joined #lisp 13:12:29 Blkt [n=Blkt@160.80.124.202] has joined #lisp 13:18:15 -!- Blkt [n=Blkt@160.80.124.202] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:19:19 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-41-17.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:43 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 13:23:40 xuanwu [n=xuanwu@hri.cogs.indiana.edu] has joined #lisp 13:23:55 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:27:24 benny [n=benny@24.121.113.82.net.de.o2.com] has joined #lisp 13:30:53 Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.10.45] has joined #lisp 13:33:09 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 13:33:18 okflo [n=user@91-115-81-95.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:34:31 matley [n=matley@host101-135-dynamic.20-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:35:16 Can a #'format string contain reference to the same parameter multiple times ? 13:35:25 Yes 13:35:31 I need to print a parameter only if its not null 13:35:40 I don't remember exactly how, but check out the relevant chapter of PCL. 13:35:50 minion: tell blandest about PCL 13:35:51 blandest: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 13:35:55 clhs ~[ 13:35:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgb.htm 13:36:15 -!- jlf [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:36:16 Adlai: ~@[ is it (: 13:36:30 What? 13:36:52 I don't remember the exact tag, I just know it's possible, and that it's in chapter 19 of PCL. 13:37:18 Rather than RTFM, I'm suggesting an RTPCL, which I think is a nicer read :) 13:38:39 I found the answer in PCL, thanks 13:38:53 np 13:39:06 read that before, but never used format for advanced stuff :) 13:39:40 It's incredibly useful, but just not very memorable because it's so obfuscated. 13:39:49 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 13:40:27 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["Off to see the terminator"] 13:42:12 blandest: using ~* notably ~:* 13:42:50 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-27-121.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:42:56 (format t "~{~:[~; there is something: ~:*~A ~%~]~}" '(nil nil nil a nil nil nil b nil)) 13:43:04 clhs ~* 13:43:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cga.htm 13:44:01 (format t "~{~:[~; there is something: ~:*~A (this is really ~:*~A) ~%~]~}" '(nil nil nil a nil nil nil b nil)) 13:44:04 matimago: it worked with ~@[ 13:44:11 Yes, if you don't need to repeat it :-) 13:44:23 I was just looking at the side effects :) 13:44:32 guess I'll have to learn format these days 13:44:49 ~n@* can be used for absolute addressing of the arguments. 13:45:19 (format t "third: ~2@*~A first: ~0@*~A second: ~1@*~A~%" 'a 'b 'c) 13:46:22 nice 13:46:52 silenius [n=jl@192.166.201.90] has joined #lisp 13:48:16 The same with relative operators: 13:48:31 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:48:37 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:48:40 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:49:01 (format t "third: ~2*~A first: ~3:*~A second: ~A~%" 'a 'b 'c) 13:49:07 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-135-51.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 13:49:59 -!- dalton is now known as Dau 13:50:15 -!- Dau is now known as dau 13:50:52 I've got something like this: (format t "~:[~;~0@*~A~]~%" (documentation sym 'function)) 13:54:39 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 13:55:37 how bad is it to define functions with keyword names ? I like typing something like (:install :my-projects) as a shortcut to asdf:oos from any package 13:55:51 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:56:15 of course, the function :install will be defined in the :keyword package and that may be a little strange 13:56:21 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 13:56:46 -!- silenius [n=jl@192.166.201.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:58:22 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 13:59:00 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:59:30 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 14:01:52 fe[nl]ix: Hello. The application of our friend is being processed according to normal procedure. If somethis is not satisfactory, let me know. 14:02:14 good :) 14:03:30 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:03:48 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:07 fe[nl]ix: I am sure Italian administration is worse than the French equivalent, but at least there are enough foreighners at our university trying their best to be better than the default, that there is hope. 14:05:16 fe[nl]ix: my person in charge of the Master program has already informed our mutual friend of the procedure to follow. 14:05:34 ok 14:05:53 fe[nl]ix: In any case, thanks for suggesting Bordeaux as one of the possibilities. 14:07:40 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@82.125.228.135] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:07:44 merimus [n=wroth@63.94.127.49] has joined #lisp 14:07:57 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:08:27 -!- cracki [n=cracki@47-146.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:28 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-19-97.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:09:41 truthair [n=truthair@arazoid.nl] has joined #lisp 14:10:58 blandest: if you're alone doing it, it's not bad. But what if I (defun :install () (print '(doing my own stuff))) too? 14:11:37 blandest: it's as bad as defining your functions in CL-USER. 14:11:38 I would only use it in my init.lisp, but not in any public package 14:11:48 matimago: I agree with that 14:12:07 but at least I can access my :install from any package 14:12:14 blandest: What I do is to define my own package com.informatimago.interactive, and put there my interactive functions, that I import in cl-user. 14:12:19 actually, that was the problem I was trying to solve 14:12:36 You can always use a small nickname and write (my:install ...) 14:13:11 I nicknamed mine PJB, so I can write (pjb:asdf-install :example) and (pjb:asdf-load :example) 14:13:24 I used to have a package with the nickname "vu" but that had to be registered in init.lisp and things got a little more complicated 14:13:50 giwik [n=chatzill@cray1.vwl.uni-mannheim.de] has joined #lisp 14:13:58 for example, my vu:install function had to be defined before I tried to load any other package 14:14:06 a chicken and egg problem :) 14:15:23 -!- giwik [n=chatzill@cray1.vwl.uni-mannheim.de] has left #lisp 14:16:07 matimago: thanks for your help 14:16:10 actually, the good thing about using keywords for personal interactive tools is that it is far more likely that there is another package witht the nickname VU then someone using keywords functions in published code 14:17:35 ejs2 [n=eugen@63.251.108.100] has joined #lisp 14:17:36 nikodemus: I liked the ideea of using keywords for functions names and was very surprised to see that it works 14:18:14 rui [n=rui@bl8-249-69.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:18:15 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:18:59 Code escapes. 14:19:17 That said, it's easy to rename a function. 14:22:18 -!- Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:24:43 knobo [n=user@216-55-7.100710.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 14:24:49 nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:58 G'morning all. 14:25:22 g.m. 14:25:42 hi nyef 14:26:54 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:30:28 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-241.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:31:14 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 14:31:14 antoni [n=user@165.pool85-53-31.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 14:31:20 Greetings. 14:31:52 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-19-97.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:32:37 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:32:54 dat [n=dthomp@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:04 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-31-229.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:33:55 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-12-190.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:35:08 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:35:19 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.34.65] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:35:47 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-23-253.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:36:53 jlf [n=user@adsl-76-200-131-171.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:58 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 14:40:15 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:40:50 dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 14:41:13 prxq [n=mommer@f051174150.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:41:27 are colons treat special in a stream, i thought they would be a standard character but i am getting an error saying too many colons in token from a read 14:41:53 Colons aren't treated as special in a -stream-, they are special in tokenization for READing. 14:42:14 -!- antoni [n=user@165.pool85-53-31.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:42:14 Guthur: read invokes the reader, where colons is the package separator. 14:42:15 If you READ-CHAR a colon, it's still #\:. 14:42:33 oh, you can't comment on advogato? 14:42:43 *stassats* wanted to comment on ingvar's post on planet lisp 14:42:50 stassats: I wanted to common on ingvar's post too 14:42:57 *comment 14:43:14 ok cheers guys, i had a feeling it was invoking the reader :| 14:43:48 stassats: doing such a bad thing and finding the result strange is nonsens. 14:43:50 AIUI, the method used to comment advogato is to make your own post in reference. 14:44:08 i'll experiment a bit more :) 14:45:34 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:45:49 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 14:46:13 -!- blandest [n=blandest@85.204.33.242] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:47:09 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-216.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:47:35 As far as ingvar's post, per 3.1.2.1.2.3, it's explcititly undefined. 14:48:09 yeah, that's what i wanted to say 14:48:25 *stassats* even registered there 14:49:11 joachifm [n=joachim@ti132110a340-3137.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 14:49:27 So it's not that the standard doesn't have an opinion, it's that the opinion is an explicit disclaimer of standardization for that case. 14:49:36 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:53 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:33 On another topic entirely, it looks like I -might- be able to make the next boston lisp meeting. 14:50:36 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:51:25 ignas [n=ignas@78.60.73.85] has joined #lisp 14:51:39 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:51:47 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@ti132110a340-3137.bb.online.no] has quit [Client Quit] 14:52:46 dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 14:53:24 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 14:54:42 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 14:54:54 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@63.251.108.100] has left #lisp 14:55:07 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 14:55:16 dysinger__ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 14:59:49 roidrage_ [n=roidrage@p54BE9671.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:03:36 -!- roidrage_ [n=roidrage@p54BE9671.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:04:49 i'm reading in a stream using a do loop but i can't seem to find a way to get it to end when the end of stream is reach, i'm sure there is an easy method, any ideas? 15:05:37 (loop for line = (read-line stream nil) while line collect line) 15:05:55 Your first mistake is in using DO. 15:06:18 Rubbish. DO works perfectly fine. 15:06:28 or (loop while (listen stream) collect (read-char stream)) 15:06:34 hhh nyef tell me about it, if you only you knew how many mistakes i made with it over the last few days ;) 15:06:55 stassats i'll give them ago 15:06:58 Guthur: And this didn't suggest to you "find a different iteration construct"? 15:06:59 *bob_f* ODs 15:07:06 i do know do i bit better now though :p 15:07:12 do a bit* 15:07:54 nyef well i put it down to lisp newb'ness 15:10:28 errm, LISTEN may behave 'strangely' on non-file streams. 15:10:42 It's not because you don't have data to read that you've reach the end of a socket stream. 15:10:43 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 15:11:22 dysinger___ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 15:11:27 Guthur: also: (handle-case (loop for line = (read-line stream) do (process line)) (end-of-file (err) :done)) 15:11:30 ya just tried listen, its not going to cut it 15:11:42 still reads on past the end 15:11:44 matimago: what do you mean "data to read" ? 15:11:58 Socket stream open, no data received. 15:12:09 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 15:12:26 it is a socket stream 15:12:41 So read would hang. LISTEN tells you that read will hang. 15:13:18 i'm using read-char now 15:13:37 Guthur: yes, I typed read instead of READ to cover all the read functions. 15:14:04 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:14:09 Guthur: what protocol to you process? 15:14:13 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:15:21 2 secs on phone 15:16:28 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Success] 15:18:52 The-Kenn1 [n=moritz@p5087BD98.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:16 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Success] 15:19:23 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:19:30 morning 15:20:10 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:20:19 -!- blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:21:37 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:22:04 -!- truthair [n=truthair@arazoid.nl] has left #lisp 15:23:52 The-Kenn2 [n=moritz@p5087D2CC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:04 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has quit [Success] 15:24:43 Do any of you regulars frequent www.lispforum.com? I'm trying to figure out the best place to post a question and I can't imagine it's still c.l.l. 15:24:50 jmbr [n=jmbr@218.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:25:03 ask it here 15:25:12 I usually get my best answers here 15:25:18 *nyef* doesn't actually frequent any web-based lisp fora... Or usenet-based lisp fora... 15:25:47 aerique: I read both lispforum and c.l.l. Although, the signal to noise ratio on c.l.l. has been pretty low lately. 15:27:25 I don't think it's a very good irc question. I'm writing wrappers to Ogre (www.ogre3d.com) which is a c++ library. I've got basic functionality working (see common-lisp.net/project/okra/ but now also auto-generated wrappers) and I've been thinking of how to handle overloading functions best. 15:27:39 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:27:45 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62.47.153.118] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:27:50 overloading => overloaded 15:27:54 aerique: what does smoke do? 15:28:14 aerique: I ask because it's a highly visible public C++ wrapper project 15:28:16 hmm, maybe this was the proper channel :) 15:28:32 dlowe: i'll go check that out tonight when I'm home, thanks 15:28:33 *nyef* points out that C++ function-overloading is essentially adding the declared parameter types for the function as a "hidden" part of the function name. 15:28:47 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@30.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:29:04 -!- ASau [n=user@host31-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 15:29:22 Heh. I can see it now... Having a C++ FFI that automatically generates DEFTRANSFORMs for overloaded functions... 15:29:26 The-Kenn3 [n=moritz@p5087FFA1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:52 -!- rui [n=rui@bl8-249-69.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["leaving"] 15:30:05 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B458.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:34 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit ["Be back later"] 15:31:35 nyef: that was one of the possibilities i have been thinking off (the function names) but hadn't tried it out yet (I did have some other failed experiments :) 15:31:41 how to change the display format of double floats? For example, I want pi to display 100 digits 15:31:42 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@218.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:32:00 -!- s0ber [i=pie@114-45-230-77.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:32:02 aerique: It's a direction in which lies madness, hence my amusement. 15:32:17 -!- dysinger__ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Success] 15:32:57 leo2007: There are explicit constraints on the display format of numbers in a READable context. If you wish more explicit control, have a look at the format directives for numeric output. 15:32:57 (format t "~,100f" pi) 15:33:28 And, really, s/to/can I/, please. 15:33:28 enjoy your trailing zeros 15:33:34 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-174.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:34:07 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:03 stassats: that is not what I want 15:35:33 -!- The-Kenn1 [n=moritz@p5087BD98.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:44 what do you want? magic? 15:35:47 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:37:20 ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@87.115.20.62.plusnet.pcl-ag01.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:30 if you want more then double-precision in your pi, you get to compute your own approximation 15:37:40 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-10-125.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:53 if a more accurate value of pi is stored in cl's memory, I want to make it show it. 15:38:00 it's not 15:38:37 well, if the lisp in question supports long-floats, you might have more precision 15:38:54 The restrictions on printing double-floats are sufficient to re-create the exact same double-float again, as accurate and precise as it was originally, when fed through the reader. 15:39:24 CLISP has variable precision floats 15:40:00 it computes Pi each time you change its precision 15:40:09 Umm... Why do we have separate double-float-low-bits and double-float-high-bits on 64-bit platforms? 15:40:48 okflo` [n=user@91-115-93-132.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:41:05 -!- benny [n=benny@24.121.113.82.net.de.o2.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:41:15 nyef: we don't, but the only such platform should get a VOP for EQL of floats soon anyway 15:41:34 Alpha? 15:42:01 (Yeah, technically not a 64-bit platform as we use it, but still...) 15:42:03 oh right, that's 64ish bit. 15:42:10 Yeah, it's the hybrid. 15:43:20 Is this the definition in sbcl (defconstant pi 3.141592653589793d0) 15:43:44 sorry I am running sbcl 1.0.27 without the source 15:44:05 (defconstant pi #!-long-float 3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937511d0) 15:44:14 Certainly looks like the *value*, but I'm not certain about the definition... 15:44:39 asksol_ [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 15:44:43 Umm... Right, and floaty values lose wrt the xcompiler anyway. 15:44:43 -!- The-Kenn2 [n=moritz@p5087D2CC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:44:59 Wouldn't surprise me to find a special hack for fp-constants in genesis. 15:45:03 -!- asksol_ [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [Client Quit] 15:45:47 Hrm... Or not. 15:45:53 looks like sbcl stores more digits of pi 15:45:53 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-2-11.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:46:15 ISTR that x86oids use hardware FPU constants in a few places. 15:46:39 but according to nyef, there is a limit on the display format 15:47:00 leo2007: the definition simply has more precision than can be represented. 15:47:07 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:47:47 minion: tell leo2007 about floating-point. 15:47:47 leo2007: look at floating-point: What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic http://docs-pdf.sun.com/800-7895/800-7895.pdf http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=103163 http://focus.hut.fi/docs/WorkShop/common/ug/goldberg1.doc.html 15:48:26 *nyef* frowns at the result of (describe 'sb-kernel::double-from-bits) on his system. 15:49:04 I'm fairly sure that the combined lengths of the argument types (BIT (UNSIGNED-BYTE 11) (UNSIGNED-BYTE 53)) is just a... bit... too long. 15:49:38 (Sign, exponent, and "SIG", presumably the mantissa, respectively.) 15:50:02 pkhuong: thanks 15:50:39 Even taking this at face value, however, you have 53 bits of mantissa and the top two are 11 for the three, leaving 51 bits to work with... 15:51:57 -!- jlf [n=user@adsl-76-200-131-171.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:52:12 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.121.172] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:52:29 Gives you about 16 characters after the decimal, roughly. 15:52:53 And that's going on my very minimal knowledge of floaty number representation. 15:53:44 -!- drafael [n=tapio@118.90.135.34] has quit [Success] 15:53:44 isn't even single float pi sufficient for most purposes? 15:54:12 rakista [n=rakista@c-71-59-128-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:13 -!- rakista [n=rakista@c-71-59-128-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:54:24 Isn't a 16-bit-component integer ratio pi sufficient for most purposes? 15:54:25 stassats: sure, the universe being discrete. 15:54:40 milanj [n=milan@77.46.249.109] has joined #lisp 15:55:09 -!- okflo [n=user@91-115-81-95.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:55:12 (Hence FORTH */MOD, which in the classical model takes 16-bit components and uses a 32-bit intermediate form.) 15:55:29 pi = 3 is good enough, otherwise just pull the cord a little more. 15:56:10 I prefer 22/7 15:56:14 pi = 1... in base pi. 15:56:37 not 10? 15:56:45 Oh, it might be. 15:56:57 -!- dat [n=dthomp@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:57:12 *tmh* needs to find his history of PI book. 15:57:35 There's a "PI Alley" in Boston... which has nothing to do with the number PI. 15:58:09 It is an interesting book, except the author throws in a few religious and political comments that seem unwarranted. 15:59:50 matimago sorry that was a long phone call, i am using TCP 16:00:17 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:00:24 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:00:40 for a pizza with radius z and thickness a, its volume is pi*z*z*a 16:02:30 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 16:02:36 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:07 dlowe: i'm using that :) 16:03:26 mtd: It's been around a few times. 16:03:42 nyef: ah, more google research. Thanks. 16:03:44 this is pretty funny: http://www.microsoft.com/australia/ie8/competition/ 16:04:03 tmh: are you referring to the book by Beckman (just wondering) 16:04:45 REPLeffect: Yeah, that's the one. 16:04:54 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 16:04:58 ok 16:05:19 Fade: Very clever. 16:05:49 Davse_Bamse_ [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 16:05:55 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 16:06:01 tmh: a Chinese mathematician comes up with something much better using 11 33 55, 355/113 16:07:21 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [Client Quit] 16:08:04 leo2007: I'd have to grab that book, but I think the Japanese came up with a better approximation as well. It's very interesting the way different civilizations have approached the topic. It speaks to the fundamental nature of the number. 16:08:22 314159/100000 is better 16:08:47 stassats: no 16:09:21 31415926x/100000 will be 16:09:41 phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 16:10:00 tmh: quite likely. The predated the person who broke his record by 1000 years 16:10:08 unlikely* 16:10:36 -!- Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.10.45] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:11:16 leo2007: this may be overkill for what you are trying to do but maxima (and maybe other libraries/packages) can do what you need. I don't know if it works but it seems that you can use maxima as a lisp library. 16:11:47 leo2007: I meant better than 22/7. 16:12:12 jleija: I have configured lisp to load with a maxima image. but seems calling maxima functions from lisp is not very straightforward 16:12:57 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:13:08 dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 16:13:13 ok 16:13:45 finally got the DO loop to end at the end-of-stream, simple peek for the loop end condition. Well it was a good DO loop learning exercise if nothing else 16:17:42 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 16:17:58 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 16:18:25 is there a list of mathematical functions in common lisp? 16:18:45 leo2007: check the numbers dictionary in the clhs 16:18:49 leo2007: In the appendix of PG ANSI Common Lips 16:18:54 s/Lips/Lisp/ 16:19:05 clhs 12.2 16:19:05 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 12.2. 16:19:39 thanks 16:19:51 anyway. section 12.2 has the dictionary for numerical stuff. also, Common Lisp, the Language has a nice visualization of trig functions, iirc. 16:20:31 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:21:21 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78.60.73.85] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:22:53 antifuchs: it is also in chapter 12, is that conincidence? 16:23:09 what is? 16:23:24 -!- couloir [n=chatzill@S0106001a706b09fb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit ["beep"] 16:23:54 cltl 16:24:25 rread [n=rread@192.18.41.196] has joined #lisp 16:28:40 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 16:32:26 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 16:34:54 leo2007: The chapter numbering of CLHS and CLtL coinciding is not coincidence. 16:35:45 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:36:34 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-174.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 16:36:45 danlei [n=user@pD954EF86.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:01 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:40:31 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-135-51.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 16:40:55 -!- willb [n=wibenton@128.105.48.174] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:41:27 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:43:32 -!- jmbr_ is now known as jmbr 16:44:41 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:06 omnomnom [n=thecrand@static-70-109-255-97.wma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:21 -!- omnomnom [n=thecrand@static-70-109-255-97.wma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:47:05 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:16 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:50:31 nyef: thanks 16:51:50 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:51:57 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:51:59 I got a simple function that computes pi with monte-carlo method and the compiler gives me 4 notes, could you help me get rid of them? 16:52:50 http://paste.lisp.org/display/82003 16:54:08 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:58:16 safety 1 should be enough 16:59:14 stassats: that makes it quicker but still 4 notes 17:00:12 now declare types 17:01:00 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:13 for all variables or just n? 17:03:05 for all 17:03:11 and why count is float? 17:03:39 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 17:05:00 stassats: for the return value 17:05:33 well, why not coerce your return value? 17:05:48 stassats: could you annotate my paste so that i can learn how to speed it up? I am new to common lisp. 17:06:02 even 4d0 instead of 4 would be enough 17:06:09 leo2007: what's random-uniform? 17:06:27 that is from package cl-randist 17:06:51 which is equivalent to (random 1d0) 17:07:36 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 17:09:25 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 17:10:24 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@proxy.emea.fedex.com] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:11:50 annotated 17:12:39 willb [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 17:13:00 i guess, random-uniform would be a bottleneck 17:14:17 and also (declaim (inline random-uniform)) 17:16:05 stassats: thanks 17:17:38 well, random-uniform is a macro 17:17:45 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 17:17:47 for random-mt 17:17:49 declaim or declare? 17:18:03 forget about it 17:18:08 ok 17:18:45 benny [n=benny@i577A32C7.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:19:22 random-mt already declaimed inline 17:19:33 -!- sepult_ is now known as sepult 17:19:44 Blkt [n=Blkt@host-78-13-251-27.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 17:19:56 yes, I have just checked that 17:20:04 hi guys 17:20:10 mind if I make a silly question? 17:20:13 well, it's really uses (random 1d0) 17:20:18 how to profile a function to see where it spends most of its time 17:20:31 -!- pitui` [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:20:34 i'd use (random 1d0) directly, because it's more clear 17:20:42 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087D1DF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:50 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:55 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-16-137.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:21:16 leo2007: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Statistical-Profiler.html#Statistical-Profiler 17:21:55 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [] 17:22:21 and also, (safety 0) can shave some time, if you are sure everything is right 17:22:30 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-153-118.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:22:55 -!- mega1 [n=mega@pool-05a89.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:23:00 When I use this macro http://paste.lisp.org/display/82005, and if the body form returns multiple values, but don't know how many, is there a way to return all the multiple values from the macro? 17:23:44 clhs m-v-l 17:23:45 Matches: MULTIPLE-VALUES-LIMIT MULTIPLE-VALUE-LIST 17:23:54 clhs multiple-value-list 17:23:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_mult_1.htm 17:23:59 stassats: thanks. I think the fundamental limit is the algorithm (the slow convergence of the mc). 17:24:32 stassats: thanks a lot! 17:24:34 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:25:35 so you save a list of values, and then just `(values ,@list-of-values) 17:25:50 stassats: yeah, that makes sense. thansk! 17:25:54 thanks* 17:26:18 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-163-112.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:01 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-41-32.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:27:03 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-a8c68645a2dbcd12] has joined #lisp 17:30:17 oh , it's in the run-time, then (values-list list-of-values) 17:30:55 Or (apply #'values list-of-values). 17:33:27 -!- The-Kenn3 [n=moritz@p5087FFA1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:34:02 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.65.80] has joined #lisp 17:34:46 or in this particular case, (multiple-value-prog1 (progn ,@body) (setf hunchentoot ...)) 17:36:16 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 17:36:55 i wonder why prog1 doesn't return all values 17:37:14 and why there isn't multiple-value-prog2 17:39:20 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.139.201] has joined #lisp 17:39:23 multiple-value-prog2, like prog2 itself, is unneccessary. 17:39:27 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:39:42 -!- blakkino [n=BLaCk@82.84.115.218] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 17:40:02 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 17:40:05 prog1 doesn't return all values because that would add storage overhead to the general case. 17:40:47 <[df]> what is the point of prog2? 17:41:21 well, if you need it... 17:41:27 It's a shortcut for (prog1 (progn (...) (...)) (progn ...)) 17:42:01 <[df]> ah, it returns the value from the second form? 17:42:14 It does in all known implementations, but... 17:42:15 clhs prog2 17:42:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog1c.htm 17:42:24 <[df]> nyef: yeah, was just reading that and wondering 17:42:29 Read what the actual specification is closely... 17:42:42 (A standing known issue and occasional joke.) 17:43:08 wait wat 17:43:08 <[df]> ah :) 17:43:23 so it's a typo? :P 17:44:32 sykopomp: That's one explanation, yes. 17:44:35 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-3-142.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:45:55 that way it can be used in some intellectual television shows, "what value should return prog2?" 17:45:57 The syntax is inconsistent with the description. That seems like a typo 17:46:16 vithorn` [i=keep@095160156230.rudaslaska.vectranet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:46:28 the example is also inconsistent :p 17:46:45 Georges` [n=Georges@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:56 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@30.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:01 wait, no it isn't. never mind. 17:47:20 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.249.109] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:23 Examples are not normative, and there's a precedence rule for conflicting statements in the spec. 17:47:25 examples aren't part of the standard anyway 17:47:42 The glossary, however, -is- normative. 17:48:26 how can i flush the stdout buffer after a print statement? 17:48:41 HET2: (force-output) 17:48:42 clhs finish-output 17:48:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm 17:48:52 thx 17:49:09 force doesn't wait 17:49:22 he didn't specify that it should wait 17:50:03 didn't, but it's good to know 17:50:08 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:50:28 anyway, force-output is more vengeful. (don't print my string, will you... we'll see about that...) 17:50:38 You could also (terpri), which would flush stdout since it's line-bufferred... 17:52:14 nyef: i had that, it was not sufficient 17:52:32 Fair enough. 17:52:32 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:52:37 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-16-137.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:53:06 nyef: per standard? 17:53:38 Possibly not per standard, but when you're dealing with the real system the standard can easily be irrelevant. 17:55:11 ignoring standards is generally not a wise idea 17:55:57 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:56:00 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-12-190.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 17:57:54 patric [n=patric@90-230-89-60-no148.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:43 Standards are wonderful, there are so many of them to choose from. 17:59:22 standards on standards? 17:59:54 nyef: s/standards/established standards/g 18:00:54 HET2: Same problem. I can point to an established standard for text file encoding that is ASCII with a CR line ending. 18:01:24 nyef: seriously, i am all for ascii 18:01:31 But CR line endings? 18:01:38 unfortunately the powers that be have decided we should use utf8 18:01:47 posix is LF, windows is CRLF. 18:02:40 *stassats* is not for ASCII 18:03:18 gah, my calculations take 25 seconds. 5 seconds are initialization which does not matter considering the big calculation will take weeks. 14 of the remaining 20 seconds are spent storing the results in a database 18:03:37 something is terribly wrong and it is not the appolo program 18:03:59 or is it apollo 18:04:18 -!- okflo` [n=user@91-115-93-132.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:05:04 -!- Georges` [n=Georges@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.94.1"] 18:06:55 rakista [n=rakista@c-71-59-128-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:58 antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/session] has joined #lisp 18:07:12 -!- rakista [n=rakista@c-71-59-128-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:08:05 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 18:08:07 klapaucjusz [n=jch@lanthane.pps.jussieu.fr] has joined #lisp 18:08:13 hello 18:13:42 TDT [n=TDT@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 18:15:45 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-c0c1e9457c31be76] has joined #lisp 18:15:49 asksol [n=ask@062249179105.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 18:21:09 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:20 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:22:52 -!- antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-6d8465be6884ee56] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:22:55 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 18:25:25 -!- vithorn` is now known as vithorn 18:25:30 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A32C7.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:25:50 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:26:11 -!- Davse_Bamse_ [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [] 18:27:43 is there an easy way to insert an element into a list? 18:27:57 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:28:43 -!- matley [n=matley@host101-135-dynamic.20-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:29:13 benny [n=benny@i577A2C50.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:29:45 clhs push 18:29:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_push.htm 18:29:56 is that whta you want? 18:30:41 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:30:46 HET2: sorry... is push what you want? 18:30:56 merimus: no 18:31:20 How about CONS? 18:31:22 HET2: well, it does do what you asked 18:31:24 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.230.219] has quit ["Log this!"] 18:31:27 -!- rread [n=rread@192.18.41.196] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:36 HET2: you'll have to be more specific then :) 18:31:51 dlowe: actually now. my requirement was more generic than push 18:31:54 -!- tvaal [n=tvaal@unaffiliated/tvaal] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:32:00 merimus: i would like to keep a list sorted as i add new elements 18:32:16 HET2: umm... don't do that 18:32:38 HET2: (setf list (sort (cons element list) predicate)) 18:32:44 HET2: do you really need a list? 18:33:36 HET2: or (setf (cdr prev) (cons element (cdr prev))) 18:34:03 dlowe: erm you realize that sorting a sorted list is actually the worst case scenario for quicksort? 18:34:11 -!- phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:34:23 HET2: that's why you shouldn't do that 18:34:27 HET2: you realize that CL:SORT isn't qsort()? 18:34:43 *HET2* goes read the hyperspec 18:34:59 HET2: in general inserting random elements into a sorted list and keeping is sorted is a bad idea... performance wise 18:35:25 merimus: not random 18:35:45 merimus: i'd do a binary search on the list in log n time and insert the element where the search terminates 18:35:49 HET2: you realise that's only true for amateur sorts in any case? 18:36:01 HET2: binary search on a list. interesting theory. 18:36:06 oh wait... 18:36:11 *sigh* 18:36:22 *dlowe* grins. 18:36:31 HET2: like a said... are you sure a list is what you want :P 18:36:58 i guess it doesn't have to be a list 18:39:18 clhs apply 18:39:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 18:39:45 Right, list. Thought so. 18:43:14 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-94-2.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:31 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-62-58.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:45:33 Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.10.45] has joined #lisp 18:46:32 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 18:47:08 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:47:13 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:48:40 Adlai [n=Adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:50:18 Davse_Bamse_ [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 18:50:25 -!- dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:52:01 -!- asksol [n=ask@062249179105.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 18:54:43 asksol [n=ask@062249179105.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 18:56:51 -!- asksol [n=ask@062249179105.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Client Quit] 18:58:00 -!- Blkt [n=Blkt@host-78-13-251-27.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:58:04 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.129.94] has joined #lisp 19:00:27 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181146241.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:01:23 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:02:41 -!- TDT [n=TDT@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:06:55 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:10:16 is there a standard way to make a temporary file? 19:10:48 What do you mean by temporary? 19:11:00 The standard way to open a file is the macro with-open-file 19:11:50 Adlai: I think he means an analog to mktmp 19:11:56 something like http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/io/File.html#createTempFile(java.lang.String,%20java.lang.String,%20java.io.File) 19:12:32 Hm, I actually have a question too... 19:12:48 ejs [n=eugen@88-117-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:48 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-211.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:13:00 What library/ies would you recommend for interacting with a server that needs to receive data from my program as POST requests? 19:13:13 I'm running ACL 8.1 Express on Linux 19:13:33 Adlai: drakma. 19:13:35 Right now I'm looking at DRAKMA 19:13:49 ah, ok. Good to know that I found a recommended library :) 19:14:15 pkhuong: thx 19:14:27 -!- dau is now known as Liszt 19:14:34 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:16:39 Adlai: I've been pretty happy with Drakma 19:16:41 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 19:16:45 -!- anfairch [n=user@nat/microsoft/x-c890a8ef2c8e71ac] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:16:56 anfairch [n=user@nat/microsoft/x-321029493328268a] has joined #lisp 19:17:50 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:18:21 milan [n=milan@77.46.174.192] has joined #lisp 19:18:35 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 19:18:49 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-183.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:54 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has left #lisp 19:21:59 phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 19:23:33 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:24:39 "Make the work harder for the men so that they keep working and pay no attention to lies." 19:24:40 -- Pharaoh of Egypt 19:24:40 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.129.94] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:28:16 -!- milanj- [n=milan@79.101.139.201] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:31:14 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:31:45 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-153-118.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:32:32 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-144-186.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:33:34 -!- Davse_Bamse_ [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [] 19:33:47 -!- ejs [n=eugen@88-117-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:33:51 ejs0 [n=eugen@76-86-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:40 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:36:44 antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:38:54 -!- antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Client Quit] 19:39:16 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 19:41:48 liszt well if the theory ain't broke why fix it ;) 19:43:00 X-Scale2 [i=email@89-180-161-149.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 19:49:38 -!- vithorn [i=keep@095160156230.rudaslaska.vectranet.pl] has quit ["( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )"] 19:51:07 damnit why do i keep forgetting the difference between eq and equal 19:56:37 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068210006.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:57 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-46-172.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:57:32 In my package I want to use another package installed in ~/.sbcl/ using asdf 19:58:00 The simple 5-line code is here http://paste2.org/p/269432 19:58:15 -!- merimus [n=wroth@63.94.127.49] has quit [] 19:58:27 but I am getting the error when use C-c C-k on a fresh slime session 19:58:51 (require 'cl-randist) runs perfectly fine in REPL 19:59:10 use a dependency form in your defsystem. 19:59:22 The error is The name "CL-RANDIST" does not designate any package. 19:59:52 Fade: I have used defsystem yet because I haven't even started writing code 19:59:57 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:00:03 Do I need to do that in the beginning? 20:00:17 the require line won't expose the symbols you want inside your system definition. 20:00:28 you want a line like: 20:00:44 :depends-on (:cl-randist)) 20:01:08 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.196.113] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:01:11 see also edi weitz' tutorial on packages. 20:01:17 Fade: nope, that's a defpackage not defsystem 20:01:26 dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 20:01:30 meurgh 20:01:31 the problem there is a missing eval-when around REQUIRE 20:01:50 listen to fe[nl]ix 20:03:10 birdsbite [n=user@74.196.9.26] has joined #lisp 20:04:07 (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) 20:04:07 (require 'cl-randist)) 20:04:19 I did that and the problem seems to go away 20:04:34 why (require 'cl-randist) failed? 20:05:57 because require is executed at load-time, while defpackage needs the package cl-randist to be available at compile-time 20:06:28 -!- willb [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:06:57 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 20:07:25 require is different in cl compared to elisp 20:07:27 right? 20:08:14 do all common lisps support require? 20:08:23 leo2007: AFAIK emacs doesn't have the separation of compile/load/execute phases like CL 20:08:23 i thought it was sbcl sugar. 20:08:36 Fade: for some value of support 20:08:50 Fade: it's left up to the implementation on how it works 20:08:58 *nod* 20:09:09 -!- bobf_ is now known as bobf 20:09:37 Fade: every impl. has it, but not all hook into ASDF 20:09:37 fe[nl]ix: thanks 20:10:06 dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 20:10:22 i only ever really use it at the repl. 20:11:33 Fade: I never do. ,l is much nicer :) 20:12:07 well, yes, that's what I use in slime. :) 20:12:31 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as X-Scale 20:12:32 every once in awhile, I find myself at a raw repl, tho. :) 20:12:35 dysinger__ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 20:12:53 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-62-58.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:13:16 tombom_ [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 20:15:16 antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 20:15:33 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:15:42 -!- antoszka_ is now known as antoszka 20:17:01 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 20:17:02 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:28 frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:19:30 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 20:20:41 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 20:21:15 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Operation timed out] 20:22:11 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1FA9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:18 -!- dysinger___ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:22:45 segv [n=mb@p4FC1B6D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:56 -!- Liszt is now known as dalton 20:26:02 -!- ejs0 [n=eugen@76-86-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:28:20 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:28:21 -!- tombom_ is now known as tombom 20:30:19 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-94-2.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:31:12 truthair [n=truthair@arazoid.nl] has joined #lisp 20:32:22 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:34:02 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:34:41 -!- frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:35:36 Ok, I want to play around with getting a high level language running on bare metal. I'm torn between lisp and python. Lisp sounds promising, but I'm not convinced it'll help me accomplish things I couldn't in python and I'm more experienced in the latter. Feel free to convince me why lisp would be better suited for this. 20:36:08 easy. python programmers pick their nose in public. 20:36:08 Lisp is easier to setup on bare metal than Python. See e.g. Movitz. 20:36:09 truthair: please, continue using python. 20:36:33 *aerique* grabs a bag of chips 20:37:08 *sykopomp* is amused. 20:37:48 tic: Really? Can't you "just" compile cpython statically, then write some OS stub which loads it? 20:37:56 truthair: why not just write your bare-metal stuff in python? :) 20:38:01 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:17 tcr, sure. I guess I read too much into truthair's question. 20:38:30 *nyef* is amused, frightened, and getting ready to leave the office. 20:38:33 tic: Well but that wouldn't allow you to do actually lowlevel programming in python itself 20:38:38 -!- nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Bye all, I'll be back later... or tomorrow."] 20:38:59 hyphens are easier to type than underscores 20:39:01 tcr, yeah. you'd end up doing most of your coding in a C extension module anyway. 20:39:17 unless you remap your keyboard but who does that? 20:40:12 tcr: That's what I thought too, but yeah. I figure I'll end up doing a lot in C extensions then. I'm not experienced enough with lisp to know how I'd handle it in lisp 20:40:19 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:44 Not much differently than how you'd do it in C 20:40:46 *hefner* does not see the point of taking a big blob of C code and making it run "on bare metal" 20:41:05 truthair: Of course this begs the question why you came here in the first place 20:41:32 maybe that C code controls a train. running trains on asphalt is not as wonderful as on bare metal rails. 20:41:41 truthair: But at least take a look at Movitz, so you see that it can be done using Lisp 20:41:46 antifuchs +1 20:42:48 tcr: Learning lisp is somewhere on my todo list, I don't know if I should just up that in priority and try doing it in lisp vs doing it in python and learning lisp when I get bored playing around with python 20:43:08 truthair: Truth is you'd probably need to spend a couple (or a dozen depending on how much time you can put into it regularly) months into learning Lisp itself 20:43:38 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:44:08 tcr: That's never stopped me from learning something before 20:44:29 antifuchs, are we running Lisp on Rails now? I thought the train was ran on lines 20:44:32 truthair: Did you know that there is an implementation of python written in Lisp? 20:45:11 Heard about it, haven't look at it beyond making tiresome jokes about snakes and lisping 20:45:15 better yet, the name of the Lisp compiler. ;) 20:45:27 tic: I thought you wanted bare metal. I'm sure furnitureporn.com can accomodate those with similar tastes (: 20:45:29 truthair: So writing your OS in Lisp can easily mean that you'll be able to use Python, too 20:45:45 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["tedium"] 20:46:12 hey, who uglified CLPython's web page? :-( 20:46:38 antifuchs, *snicker* 20:46:40 hefner: The point of making it run on bare metal is not so much the running on bare metal. But doing systems programming in something that is not C :p 20:46:45 (need to dig to get to the really hot glossy-metallic finish seats) 20:46:46 That said, running anything on bare metal indeed is of little interest. Better would be to have it run on a virtualizing kernel, like KVM or Xen. Best of both: you get to write your OS, and you still have all the linux devices under. 20:46:48 He put the code into git for me. I don't know why he replaced the entirely website for that 20:46:54 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-135-51.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 20:47:21 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:23 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:49:47 phf_ [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 20:50:07 rread [n=rread@192.18.41.196] has joined #lisp 20:50:21 -!- rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-c0c1e9457c31be76] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:50:40 if i do (loop ... (return)) is it going to return only from the innermost loop? 20:50:42 pjb: From a practicality standpoint perhaps, but I actually like doing assembly work and low level messing about 20:50:42 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-d6c7f4834e56ffbb] has joined #lisp 20:50:55 dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 20:50:56 HET2: Yes 20:50:58 thanks 20:51:19 HET2: You can name a LOOP explicitly by (loop named foo ... (loop ... (return-from foo ...)) ...) 20:51:43 tcr: is there also something like c's continue? 20:51:55 HET2: return is actually a BLOCK operator, and loop is defined to wrap itself in a BLOCK named as tcr explains 20:52:18 hmm 20:52:31 _bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 20:52:32 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 20:52:32 i just realized it does not solve my problem 20:52:35 HET2: You can use TAGBODY and GO. Not LOOP, but the DO-FOO iteration macros establish a TAGBODY implcitily 20:53:03 (dotimes (i 100) (when (oddp i) (go :next-loop)) (print i) :next-loop) 20:53:57 thanks 20:54:58 icky 20:55:05 yuck 20:55:06 why? 20:55:34 It's why you should make sure your DO-FOO macros expand to TAGBODY, too. 20:55:50 (loop for i from 0 below 100 unless (oddp i) do (print i)) 20:56:06 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-183.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:14 (dotimes (i 100) (unless (oddp i) (print i))) 20:56:32 It seems someone missed the context 20:56:43 ? 20:56:50 I'm protesting against your use of GO. 20:56:57 benny` [n=benny@i577A2C50.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:57:01 You shouldn't be teaching that to HET2. 20:57:16 klapaucjusz: right, context, you lack it. 20:57:33 Eleanore [n=a@79-71-177-91.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:40 klapaucjusz: How about performing protest-by-silence? 20:57:51 i actually think that my problem is not escaping out of a loop (which is bad style in any context) - i think that it is about time i call it a day and deal with this tomorrow 20:57:54 -!- Eleanore [n=a@79-71-177-91.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:58:00 Klapaucjuszu, ale masz liczny nick. 20:58:10 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:58:23 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A2C50.versanet.de] has quit [No route to host] 20:58:26 Dzieki. 20:58:35 I protest against your use of dotimes: (map-fn 'print (choose-if 'evenp (scan-range :upto 100))) 20:59:22 You spent too much time with rahul! Where's he got, btw= 20:59:23 dlowe: did you have to look it up? Or do you know series syntax offhand? 20:59:43 scan-range is not in teh hyperspec... 20:59:54 klapaucjusz: I should have looked it up. I got the map-fn form wrong :D 21:00:06 HET2: It's in the series package. 21:00:15 oh 21:00:30 HET2: Rahul and I are the only real fans of series, I think 21:01:03 *HET2* is not very fond of lazy evaluation for sequences 21:01:06 michaelw, too 21:01:37 dlowe: perhaps you should troll in #haskell then ;) 21:02:05 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:02:06 dlowe: me too ^_^ 21:02:25 HET2: Uh, bite me. I wasn't trolling. 21:02:38 dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 21:02:56 -!- phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:03:01 dlowe: i know 21:03:27 (loop do (block continue ... (return-from continue) ...)#|jumps here|#) 21:04:29 dlowe: how widespread is series nowadays, anyways? I haven't heard of it before. 21:04:36 *HET2* returns-from office #|jumps home|# 21:05:09 sykopomp: It's described in Cltl. There's an official version that does horrific things to your package setup. 21:05:35 Lots of shadowing of CL special forms so it can optimize a data-flow graph into a control-flow graph 21:05:49 hm 21:05:49 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:06:29 I'd love to work on a version that integrated with sbcl's compiler backend, but I already have too many projects atm. 21:07:11 dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 21:07:22 -!- rread [n=rread@192.18.41.196] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:08:10 whoa. Series looks pretty awesome. 21:08:19 why don't we use this, again? :P 21:08:33 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:09:00 Try programming in Haskell, you'll find out. 21:09:33 okay? I fail to see the issue. 21:10:28 It's extremely seductive once you get the hang of it. As your code becomes more complicated, you start suffering from data retention, and your program starts using massive amounts of memory. 21:10:41 You also end up deadlocking with yourself. 21:11:57 klapaucjusz: I understand that you got traumatized by Haskel, but please go complain elsewhere 21:12:21 I've never had a problem with deadlocking. Maybe my iteration needs are simpler. 21:12:23 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-5916.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 21:12:38 Using massive amounts of memory sounds like an implementation problem 21:12:48 klapaucjusz: I'm not sure it's comparable. I think the point of Series is mainly to write LOOPs differently, not your whole computation 21:13:32 -!- dysinger__ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:14:38 dlowe: I'm thinking of a programmer error -- mistakenly retaining a pointer to the head of your series, which causes you to work in linear instead of constant space. It happens surprisingly often. 21:15:00 tcr: fair enough; I've only cursorily looked at series, while I have a fair amount of Haskell experience. 21:15:07 -!- patric [n=patric@90-230-89-60-no148.tbcn.telia.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:16:20 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:04 -!- phf_ [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 21:19:01 klapaucjusz: It's only based on impression, not actually usage experience. I never used series, and Haskell only sparingly 21:19:24 dysinger__ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 21:19:34 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:22:25 -!- benny` is now known as benny 21:26:00 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:27:53 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-241.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 21:28:38 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:30:47 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:31:21 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-48-50.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:31:24 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:57 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-48-50.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:31 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-46-172.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:35:10 Is (multiple-value-call ...) analogous to scheme's (call-with-values ...) or is there some substantial difference I don't notice? 21:35:32 -!- dv___ [n=dv@85-127-104-22.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:35:36 r5rs call-with-values 21:35:36 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_574 21:36:59 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 21:37:04 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 21:37:14 antoszka: multiple-value-call is rarely used directly in Common Lisp. You most often use multiple-value-bind 21:37:59 antoszka: looks alike to me 21:38:05 tcr: Yeah, I was thinking about a question asked a while ago in #scheme, whether it's possible to do that without binding the values to symbols (like in m-v-b from what I understand). 21:38:11 Blkt [n=wasdf@host-78-13-251-27.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 21:38:25 tcr: And started looking for the answer in CL. 21:38:38 fe[nl]ix lololol 21:38:56 dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 21:44:38 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@24.91.154.83] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:45:30 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:46:50 -!- dys` is now known as dys 21:46:54 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:47:35 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-48-50.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 21:50:12 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:50:27 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:50:56 HG` [n=wells@xdslgl159.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:51:34 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:53:16 Is in Lisp any function to make a new list of n elements, with elements from 0 to n? or should I write my own function? 21:53:28 mrSpec: why do you need such a list? 21:53:47 I have to make permutation of n elements 21:54:13 so I have to fill list from 0 to n 21:54:19 permuting a list will be gratuitously slow. 21:54:35 hmm should I use table ? 21:54:39 array* 21:54:59 Is it much faster? 21:55:09 right, a vector is usually better suited to the permutation algorithms you'll find. 21:55:39 ok thanks 21:55:43 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.20.200] has joined #lisp 21:56:18 and can I make table with numbers from 0 to n ? or from 1 to n ? 21:56:22 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-216.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:56:47 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 21:56:48 I like (map-into (make-array n) (let ((i 0)) (lambda() (incf i)))). There's nothing built-in. 21:57:11 ah, ok 21:58:10 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:58:43 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 21:59:16 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:59:41 jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:04 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:33 pkhuong: know anything comparably nice for multidim arrays? 22:02:04 -!- truthair [n=truthair@arazoid.nl] has left #lisp 22:02:51 kpreid: you could map on a displaced vector and truncate to decode the row major index into indices. 22:02:53 I frapsed a demo of Okra for those wanting to waste a minute: http://www.xs4all.nl/~euqirea/tmp/okra.avi The movement is a little jerky because I'm not interpolating the cube positions between physics steps. 22:03:04 *aerique* goes off to bed 22:03:07 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 22:03:24 pkhuong: and for pretty code would you consider that better or worse than a couple of dotimes? 22:03:45 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:45 Anyone who loves CL, listen to the first 3 or 5 minutes of this: http://techzinglive.com/?p=63 22:03:59 (in this case we're initializing to random values) 22:04:03 -!- dysinger__ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:04:32 oh, I'd probably go with a displaced vector (or with-array-data ;) then. 22:05:38 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:07:54 langzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@p5B17F980.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:18 sampointon [n=sampoint@79-78-75-122.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 22:09:06 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:12 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslgl159.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:10:39 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:10:56 elias` [n=c@host81-155-251-189.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:11:01 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087D1DF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["I am Locutus of Borg! You will assist us!"] 22:13:12 p0a [n=emacs@athedsl-386957.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:13:25 antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-5a6e5695630d3538] has joined #lisp 22:15:31 -!- ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@87.115.20.62.plusnet.pcl-ag01.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:15:43 -!- herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:15:46 herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 22:16:00 merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:11 Is there code to read except what's on grahams book and PCL? For instance, a well written project? 22:16:15 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-5916.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:16:29 there's lots 22:16:33 minion: cl-ppcre 22:16:35 cl-ppcre: CL-PPCRE is a portable, Perl-compatible regular expression library by Edi Weitz. http://www.cliki.net/cl-ppcre 22:16:36 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-5916.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 22:16:37 is a really good one 22:16:42 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:49 as are all of edi weitz's libraries 22:17:29 i like the contextL code if you're looking for CLOS and MOP magic. 22:18:25 I'm looking at the weitz libraries and there's lots. I'll also keep in mind (logs) the one you mentioned drewc 22:20:06 (incf *ediware*) 22:20:21 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:21:36 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:22:11 -!- knobo [n=user@216-55-7.100710.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:22:37 knobo [n=user@216-55-7.100710.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 22:22:38 -!- p0a [n=emacs@athedsl-386957.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 22:22:59 Is it safe to assume that a place's setf expansion returns as many values as it writes? 22:23:48 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087D1DF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:49 pkhuong: what do you mean ? 22:24:31 -!- teilzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@p5B17FFBB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 22:24:52 if the writer form takes k store variables, does the reader-form also return k variables? 22:25:22 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:26:02 Is there a way to tell slime/swank not to truncate lists in the debugger (I am assuming it is setting *print-length* to 10...) 22:26:34 smithzv: you can inspect that list instead. It's probably much safer than potentially sending the debugger in the debugger. 22:26:44 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit ["leaving"] 22:26:52 pkhuong: gethash maybe 22:26:57 change *print-length* in swank:*sldb-printer-bindings* 22:28:04 pkhuong: How can I do that, It is some data that is generated by a macro (cl-yacc), not my data. 22:28:07 fe[nl]ix: that case would still be ok for me. I don't think I care about weird places. 22:29:50 -!- antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-5a6e5695630d3538] has left #lisp 22:33:09 stassats: btw, thanks 22:33:16 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:38:32 -!- merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:39:56 dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 22:40:50 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 22:47:57 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:50:24 I am reading in a stream and end up with what looks like control characters, 0^L^B^A^A' ^G^B^A^C^D^@, is it an encoding issue, or was the stream likely binary, it shouldn't be binary and I want to rule out emacs and clisp before digging into the source of the stream 22:50:57 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:51:07 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 22:51:58 if your interested or maybe its relevant; the source of the stream was Evolutions LDAP connection message 22:52:18 s/your/you're 22:53:35 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:55:09 hum, isn't ldap supposed to be x500-encoded non-text stuff? 22:55:23 (long time since I worked with that) 22:55:32 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:56:00 i'm thought from the RFC it said it was text, i am probably wrong :p 22:56:18 they are hard to decipher 22:56:29 i'll have another look 22:56:40 as are all x500-based protocols 22:56:49 pains in collective backsides 22:57:18 i was under the assumption LDAP was a simpler abstraction, but you know what they say about assumptions ;) 22:58:45 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-5916.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:01:28 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 23:01:40 ah it may be that it is only the data elements are strings, doh 23:04:25 yep the protocol messages use BER, more stuff to read 23:04:56 good luck (: 23:04:59 antifuchs thanks for highlighting my error 23:05:00 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.20.200] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:05:13 i think i will near more than luck :| 23:05:27 patience in the face of grave overengineering (: 23:06:23 indeed :) 23:06:42 good night now (: 23:06:57 goodnight thanks again 23:08:01 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:08:07 raig [n=user@32.Red-79-150-112.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:40 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6CCBB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 23:19:02 -!- _bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit ["leaving"] 23:20:06 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:56 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [No route to host] 23:22:46 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:24:19 *Guthur* finds a lisp package for decoding ASN 1, and is considerably happier about the possibility of not having to make one :) 23:26:13 -!- Blkt [n=wasdf@host-78-13-251-27.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit ["( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )"] 23:26:21 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-40-47.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 23:26:56 Guthur: what package ? 23:27:19 the ASN.1 one :) http://www.cliki.net/ASN.1 23:27:55 only just started looking, so i'm prepared for it not to work at this stage ;) 23:27:56 is it better to have a file loaded each time during startup in the config of sbcl or in the config of slime? 23:29:05 depends on what you want 23:34:42 fe[nl]ix to say documentation was scarce would have to be the greatest understatement ever 23:34:55 kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:06 moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 23:35:08 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-144-186.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:39:33 Where is the documentation for adding to a list of lisp files that should be loaded during slime startup? I can't find it in the slime user manual v3.0 23:40:08 why not just load them from ~/.swank.lisp ? 23:40:55 hmm, ok 23:41:44 this made me chuckle - In short, marrying XML and ASN.1/PER is like tying two stones together and hoping they will float. 23:45:17 merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:24 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@76.119.215.57] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:51:23 kidd [n=kidd@32.Red-79-150-112.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:46 does anyone know of a lisp binding to the OSG library? 23:57:24 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:59:31 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec`away