00:02:10 elephant wouldn't be a million miles away form it 00:02:12 *from it 00:02:55 rsynnott: reading about it now. Thanks. Is it reliable anecdotally? 00:04:10 I've used it 00:04:28 it's probably as reliable as the data store it's using 00:04:36 generally bdb or postgres 00:05:27 ... reminds me to finish work on tc 00:06:15 oh, are you adding a tc backend? 00:06:22 tyrant, or plain tc? 00:06:25 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:33 *rsynnott* considered doing that at one point, and even started... 00:06:42 what's TC? 00:08:25 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:09:26 rsynnott: first finishing bindings to cabinet/tyrant and dystopia 00:09:41 I'm planning of getting a backend for elephant as well 00:09:50 actually, elephant might be interesting use case 00:10:15 as humbling as it is, lately I had done more thinking on notes/ideas for a novel :D 00:10:23 at least for cabinet/tyrant, ep 00:10:26 *yep 00:10:46 dystopia wouldn't fit in, though you could certainly use it WITH a elephant app 00:11:03 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:58 well, it might make elephant deployment easier, at least on POSIX 00:12:18 it might need some low-level work for windows 00:12:38 you could just implement the tyrant wire-protocol; it's documented 00:13:00 rsynnott: yes, but I wanted something to run inside process 00:13:14 also, it still won't clear the case of win32/win64 deployment 00:13:34 yep, windows deployment is always a problem :) 00:14:16 shove it in a VM :) 00:14:50 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:25 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:15:55 rsynnott: Well, one of my weirder clbuild modification ideas where actually related to building appliances, in a way 00:16:53 -!- merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:16:54 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:14 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:18:22 johncl i think its tokyo cabinet 00:18:36 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:51 -!- jmbr___ is now known as jmbr 00:18:55 Guthur: yeah, I figured that from goog, but I guess they weren't addressing that to me 00:19:12 oh, sorry, missed the question :) 00:19:26 johncl: sorry, derailed ^^; 00:19:28 no problem 00:19:32 =) 00:19:42 johncl i actually thought you might, just making sure, and yeah they were too got up in the excitement :p 00:19:56 s/got/caught 00:20:21 so what is TC anyways? in brief strokes? 00:20:28 I ignore that I ignore it. 00:21:04 never mind, everyone =) I just searched "Tokyo Cabinet" and got the answer 00:21:13 my previous searches were more vague (TC) 00:21:51 sourceforge one seems the best on first look 00:21:58 http://tokyocabinet.sourceforge.net/ 00:22:04 for a description 00:22:37 still vague'ish 00:22:39 it would potentially make a very nice backend for elephant 00:22:49 (lacks the license problems BDB has) 00:23:38 rsynnott what are you doing, wrapping it in Common Lisp 00:23:48 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@227.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:24:22 I'd been implementing the tyrant (its remote component) wire protocol in cl 00:25:21 Alright, time for my sunday evening cinema. =) Thanks everyone, you've been helpful. 00:25:26 -!- johncl [n=memet@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 00:25:37 don't think i would need remote, but out of curiosity how far along ? 00:25:51 johncl enjoy :) 00:25:54 not very 00:26:01 got quite distracted with real-work 00:26:08 but it's not a terribly complex protocol 00:26:13 ah real work, a distant memory :p 00:26:16 there's a description on that website somewhere 00:26:59 will have a look, might actually come in handy, 00:29:23 i think i may have to look into that work malarky soon as well :p, civil service for me most likely 00:29:33 civil service?! 00:30:34 a bureaucrat the great unelected :p 00:30:48 its the only jobs we have left in the UK 00:31:06 Guthur: ... please, don't make my jobsearch even more depressing 00:31:15 we pay taxes to employ civil servants to collect and pay taxes 00:31:24 Guthur: ah, Yes Minister, then? :) 00:31:31 indeed :) 00:32:01 *p_l* hopes his talk with a web startup tomorrow.. no, today.. will go well 00:32:02 p_l you will probably be ok, i am old'ish and cynical, not a good employee 00:32:46 Guthur: heh, I'm young and cynical and tainted by working in much better conditions than offerred now :P 00:32:46 they all want fresh graduates who are bright eyed and don't question to much 00:33:01 p_l ah you're buggered then :p 00:33:30 you might be too expensive 00:34:06 that's what I heard. poor startup couldn't afford £100/day (a complete ass pull, but you need to negotiate hard...) 00:34:19 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:34:35 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:34:48 p_l you probably should be getting well rested 00:35:23 but I am sure you will do a great talk 00:35:46 Guthur: yeah, just finishing my drink and hitting bed. I hope I'll get them interested (or bluff enough to get them interested...) 00:36:10 don't tell to convert all their software dev to LISP....not yet anyway :p 00:36:38 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:10 Guthur: I mentioned CL already as possible future path :> 00:37:20 they didn't groan :D 00:37:39 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-1-178.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:39 hhh that'ss something 00:37:51 well it is their lose if they don't take you on ;) 00:38:20 that's what i say, but i'm slowly thinking the world is now full of losers :p 00:39:04 must get ready for bed myself actually 00:39:19 all the best for the talk 00:40:18 thx 00:40:58 also, goodnight/dobranoc/ for now. AFK 00:41:30 ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 00:42:45 evening 00:42:49 couloir [n=chatzill@96.49.120.130] has joined #lisp 00:51:00 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:51:11 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:51:12 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F2D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:59:00 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:02:02 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:04:38 how many of you have tried emacs psychotherapist? 01:04:51 yes 01:04:57 he's helped me through many tough times 01:04:58 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:04:58 I found it didn't help me. 01:05:07 i don't need a psychotherapist. 01:05:07 hahaha 01:05:08 hefner: you're just too resistant. 01:06:51 sykopomp: do you know where can i find brief snippets of lisp code? 01:07:10 Bigshot_: cliki.net 01:07:13 *hefner* recommends a book on lisp and a pair of scissors 01:08:04 yay for hefnerian humor 01:09:01 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 01:09:03 heh 01:09:05 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 01:13:32 WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:01 he mad me angry which i suppose helped :p 01:14:19 s/mad/made 01:15:15 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:18:28 Bigshot_ have you seen the practical lisp book/website yet 01:18:39 its ok 01:18:52 yeah' 01:26:14 -!- ZabaQ [n=johnc@88.211.46.93] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:26:39 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:35 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 01:33:52 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-138-193-165.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 01:39:30 -!- couloir [n=chatzill@96.49.120.130] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:43:36 birdsbite [n=user@74.196.9.26] has joined #lisp 01:47:10 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 01:50:12 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:16 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:07:13 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:07:33 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:11:26 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 02:11:44 djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 02:12:02 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.73.229] has joined #lisp 02:14:09 fullets [n=user@robotines.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:15:23 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 02:15:35 djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 02:16:53 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 02:17:06 djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 02:18:43 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-1-16.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 02:22:25 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 02:22:37 djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 02:23:29 p_l: you still here? 02:24:12 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:24:50 -!- birdsbite [n=user@74.196.9.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:25:38 Adlai [n=Adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 02:26:08 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-1-16.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:26:26 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:26:29 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-1-16.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 02:26:42 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.31.208] has joined #lisp 02:27:53 -!- ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:37:42 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:39:41 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 02:42:39 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:50 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-1-16.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:52:01 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:53:19 -!- nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 02:54:34 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has left #lisp 03:00:05 plage [n=user@118.71.57.230] has joined #lisp 03:00:09 Good morning. 03:01:13 Looks pretty quiet here today. 03:02:36 morning, plage 03:03:47 what the heck. Why do people use cvs still? 03:03:59 How do I make a patch with this thing? :< 03:05:59 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:09:29 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-0-9.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:10:45 cvs diff? 03:14:54 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.31.208] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:15:18 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:39 sykopomp: My guess would be that people are not terribly held back by their version-control system, and spend more time doing development work instead, so changing to something else just represents more work for essentially the same functionalities. 03:23:07 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-1-16.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 03:24:20 hjpark [n=user@116.40.135.22] has joined #lisp 03:29:11 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-140-190.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:10 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:30:24 plage: the difference between cvs/svn and darcs/git for bazaar-style development is pretty significant, in my eyes. Then again, I -started- with git :) 03:30:24 re cvs -- my guess is that most people (including lispers) generally use whatever they're familiar with, regardless of whether its the best tool available. 03:31:13 s0ber_ [i=pie@118-168-239-86.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:38 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:31:57 sykopomp: True. I would be in favor of going for git, but I can't see why people prefer svn over cvs. Or, rather, why one would go to the trouble of switching. 03:32:17 *nod* 03:32:40 plage: svn's advantages over cvs are more in the area of project management. Things like branching, etc. work better. 03:32:55 plage: For most developer's they'd see no difference. 03:33:00 I think people who switched to SVN were very excited about an upgraded CVS, but cashed out too soon as all those distributed VC's got popular shortly thereafter. 03:33:11 Anyway, time to hit the streets. Talk to you later. 03:33:15 -!- plage [n=user@118.71.57.230] has left #lisp 03:33:39 ahaas: Possibly. I like git, but only know of a couple of projects that are actually big enough with enough developers to need it. 03:34:41 aja: The distributed nature has been the biggest appeal for me, but other than that and a few small issues, I could've stayed with CVS. 03:35:11 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.143.51] has joined #lisp 03:36:21 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:36:57 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 03:41:22 making a commit at 36000ft is one good reason for git... 03:41:40 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 03:41:51 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:41:57 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.73.229] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:42:09 SVN was around for years before the DVCS party started. That and TortoiseSVN made it an excellent choice for a few years. 03:42:33 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:42:33 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-165-192.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:43:13 BrianRice` [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:13 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 03:43:23 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 03:44:01 svn smells. 03:45:03 SVN was "CVS done right". Is there anything more to say? 03:45:44 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:46:03 probably, but at this point I've forgotten what the problem was. 03:46:17 I had lunch with a dvcs-hacker recently. he said the future is everybody using their own favourite dvcs at home and using e.g. git-svn to convert towards upstream repositories. that maybe svn isn't so bad as a central repo if everyone else is using git/hg/etc. sounds messy to me :) 03:46:50 lukego: I was thinking about this the other day because I want clbuild to use git-svn instead of svn :) 03:47:13 <_3b> that would be annoying on initial checkout for large projects 03:47:16 I wish clbuild were more understandable. I've failed to use it on each attempt lately. I just want "install the most common stuff and give me a working slime" 03:47:40 lukego: weren't you the original author? 03:47:58 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.250.242] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:48:05 SVN is not a good upstream; insufficient metadata. 03:51:31 slyrus: yes but it's grown much more ambitious since my version. mine only had 2-3 permuations of command-line arguments I think 03:51:42 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:51:50 ah, ok. the fact that you fund it not understandable enough is discouraging. 03:52:23 one day, we'll all use mudballs -- and it shall be good. 03:52:26 >_> 03:52:44 what's the result of Y combinator of atom? 03:56:06 *hefner* never did learn the correct way to public code you were developing in git 03:59:42 -!- Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:03:48 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:06:56 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:18 hefner: is public a verb in that sentence? 04:11:29 Schaefer [n=rileygoo@38.117.250.220] has joined #lisp 04:13:44 _stern_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45CB4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:21 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:18 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:21:35 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 04:21:43 lukego: it's easy enough to install sbcl, emacs and slime manually 04:21:44 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 04:24:02 -!- Schaefer [n=rileygoo@38.117.250.220] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:24:07 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:24:14 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 04:24:47 Schaefer [n=rileygoo@38.117.250.220] has joined #lisp 04:26:26 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:26:46 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:03 Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:46 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E444D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 04:32:42 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:32:57 -!- BrianRice` [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:33:05 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:36:33 what's wrong with using git at the center? 04:36:51 slyrus: publish, sorry. 04:36:59 ..or is it that "people at the center" already use svn perhaps :) 04:39:23 Ralith: maybe so. but in practice every time I decide to spend "a day playing with Lisp" I end up getting stuck on basic installation and setup issues. seems like a pity 04:39:48 but not the end of the world for people who are doing a lot of lisp since it pays off to do the setup 04:43:03 aptitude -> emacs .. the rest, all lisp stuff, .emacs-file etc. -- i rsync & go 04:43:22 not very clever, but it works 04:44:20 -!- nuntius [n=nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:44:23 BrianRice` [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:18 asdf-binary-locations is needed for that to not drive you nuts btw. 04:45:31 don't want to rsync a bunch of .fasl files 04:51:09 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:51:15 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:51:15 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 04:51:21 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:10 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-1-178.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:58:48 lnostdal: -f'- *.fasl' 04:59:03 oh, rsync option, S11001001 ? 04:59:05 yes 04:59:08 nice 04:59:22 there is a whole filter language with recursive rulelist loads in fact 04:59:36 rejoice; i can be even lazier then :) 04:59:57 (asdf-binary-locations can be somewhat of a hassle sometimes) 05:00:28 I use ABL but mainly because I use the same physical tree for 3 platforms 05:10:04 -!- fullets [n=user@robotines.co.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:10:09 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:12 rread__ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:04 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1C8A4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:22:26 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-0-99.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 05:26:54 -!- rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-41c076a510f878c1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:28:55 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:32:00 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-63-99.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:32:12 fusss_au [n=chatzill@chohyu.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:24 greetings 05:32:55 hey fusss_au 05:33:17 ahaas: just made the long 22hr journey from DC to Sydney 05:33:31 permanently expated here :-) 05:33:34 I was wondering about your nick. Have you relocated? 05:33:40 yeah 05:33:58 Are you happy about that? 05:33:59 fusss_au: why all the way to australia? geez. 05:34:00 i don't wanna use my real nick, i am at a dodgy internet cafe, god knows what's getting logged 05:34:03 I mean. Oi! 05:34:18 sykopomp: gf is back from touring 05:34:27 fusss_au: yes, because grep won't match fusss_au, amirite? 05:35:12 sykopomp: heh, my nick is registered with nickserv. i don't mind checking my Wachovia account online, but i don't want anybody stealing my IRC handle. 05:35:23 ah, right 05:36:27 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:36:56 anybody using custom tags with cl-who? 05:37:13 i might have hacked something together :-) 05:38:04 (:contact "foo" "bar") ==>

Foo

bar

I could bastardize it further 05:39:12 -!- rread__ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:41:28 ejs0 [n=eugen@253-213-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:26 mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 05:46:30 hello 05:47:25 hei-ho 05:47:39 -!- jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060215]"] 05:50:22 -!- saikat__ is now known as saikat_ 05:51:16 lukego: well, most linux distros have emacs, slime, and at least one popular lisp in their repositories 05:51:20 that should do fine 05:51:43 Ralith: up to date slime? 05:52:07 up to date enough for "a day playing with lisp," certainly 05:52:27 you probably don't want an up to date slime; the older the better ;-) 05:52:48 fusss_au: yeah, except the slime currently in the Arch repos is the same version with the obnoxious tilde bug. 05:53:04 ugh 05:53:26 you know the one. 05:53:30 ;) 05:56:34 Ralith: Did you know that lukego co-wrote slime? 05:57:08 ahaas: if that's the case, then I'm impressed that it's not a trivial task for him to set it up. 05:57:22 I don't think that's the point he was making. 05:57:26 it certainly was easy for me, and I'd never touched it before. 05:58:44 couloir [n=chatzill@96.49.120.130] has joined #lisp 06:00:00 it's more work than getting to an openfirmware prompt =p 06:04:09 -!- couloir [n=chatzill@96.49.120.130] has quit ["beep"] 06:06:13 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:06:56 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 06:08:00 -!- xyz [n=divz@117.98.176.42] has quit ["leaving"] 06:08:15 i use custom cl-who tags, fusss_au .. it's very handy 06:08:33 lnostdal: +1 :-) yep 06:10:09 i.e., (:sw some-widget) --> (str (shtml-of some-widget)) ;; something like that .. SHTML i the "static" html of a widget; the element-type and the ID attribute 06:10:14 is the 06:10:24 i sleep now must .. bye 06:15:24 i can't get cl-clg to compile 06:15:45 it complains about redefining 'byte' 06:19:44 splittist [n=dmurray@122-158.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:19:48 morning 06:22:37 -!- fusss_au [n=chatzill@chohyu.lnk.telstra.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 06:24:11 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 06:26:48 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:30:39 -!- hjpark [n=user@116.40.135.22] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:32:12 Richard [n=Rich@95.132.252.194] has joined #lisp 06:32:38 -!- Richard is now known as Guest76199 06:33:42 please if anyone has been working with xplus 3.04 , i need help. Why is it impossible to create a class, sending :new method to the class "class"? Has standarts changed or it is a problem of the interpreter i use? 06:34:10 what i do is i write (setq myclass (send class :new)) 06:34:30 and get the answer "error: no method for this message - :NEW" 06:34:37 -!- Guest76199 is now known as Richard_ 06:34:43 -!- Richard_ is now known as _Richard_ 06:34:45 benny [n=benny@i577A1E28.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:34:53 <_Richard_> thanks for any help 06:35:37 elias` [n=c@host86-159-170-69.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 06:36:23 What is xplus? 06:37:48 prabuinet [n=prabu@221.134.21.34] has joined #lisp 06:38:02 <_Richard_> its an implementation of xlisp 3.0 for linux 06:38:48 <_Richard_> actually it is called XLISP-XPLUS 06:38:48 <_3b> that seems to be a scheme variant, so might want to try #scheme as well 06:39:04 This channel is for Common Lisp. 06:40:11 :-o 06:40:24 this sounds ancient. Is it alien technology? 06:40:55 <_Richard_> i've no idea, that what i have found about xlisp for linux in the internet 06:41:16 <_3b> why are you using xlisp/xplus? 06:41:27 _3b: apparently, it's a precursor to common lisp. 06:42:00 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XLISP 06:42:03 <_Richard_> _3b: can u advice something different that is object oriented and for Linux? 06:42:12 _3b: Common Lisp. 06:42:13 <_3b> common lisp? 06:42:17 *_3b* is too slow 06:43:17 <_Richard_> ok thanks, i'll try it.. 06:43:58 minion: please tell _Richard_ about that-dead-sexy-book 06:43:59 _Richard_: please look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 06:44:14 _Richard_: why are you so set on 'something' object-oriented for linux? 06:44:38 considering the sheer number of so-called OO languages out there. 06:45:30 <_Richard_> 'cause i study lisp at university, so have no choice. Althought personally me i think lisp is better for procedural rathen then for OO programming 06:46:11 <_3b> you should probably use whatever your university uses, at least for coursework 06:46:49 _Richard_: why would that be? 06:47:02 <_Richard_> guys are you using it for writing some serious applications? 06:47:05 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has joined #lisp 06:47:14 _Richard_: french? are you in bordeaux by any chance? :P 06:47:15 <_Richard_> just new to functional programming 06:47:34 <_3b> common lisp doesn't really focus on functional any more than OO :) 06:47:57 common lisp is a full-fledged 'production' language. Some people here write it for a living. 06:48:00 <_Richard_> sykopomp no dsl, are you? 06:48:03 the rest of us covet the lucky shmucks. 06:48:25 _Richard_: nah, just wondering because there's a prof from bordeaux that hangs out around here :) 06:48:40 and I caught a shibboleth of french. 06:48:59 (french shibboleth?) 06:50:43 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@122-158.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:51:27 splittist [n=dmurray@122-158.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:51:56 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:52:18 I just noticed that when I start sbcl, require mcclim-freetype and clim-listener, and run the listener, it reports (in the bottom) that already 107M of memory is used. Isn't that extreme? 06:52:37 NO 06:52:40 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:52:43 all your rams are belong to lisp. 06:52:49 D'oh! ;) 06:52:57 how dare you question its wise and all-powerful knowledge of ram? 06:53:20 trust lisp. It knows what it's doing better than your puny human brain ever can. Do you want to go back to the days of memory management? 06:53:24 So it'll reuse/collect that efficiently? It just seems to allocate a lot for actually not having done that much... 06:53:24 I DON'T THINK SO 06:53:32 nonono 06:53:34 don't question it. 06:53:36 Sikander: Compiled Lisp code typically contains lots of debugging information. 06:54:01 <_3b> sbcl probably favors speed over size as well 06:54:10 Well, coming from the world of C with the mighty malloc and the fearsome free, it's extremely unsettling... 06:54:31 In a world where even notebooks are sold with 4gb of ram? 06:54:47 *Sikander* has 4GB of RAM as well. 06:54:57 I'm just surprised, that's all 06:55:19 my sbcl uses over 40 MB as soon as I've started it 06:55:24 ditto 06:55:41 Sikander: you could try switching to ECL :) 06:55:45 So... when running multiple programs in lisp that do insane calculations on huge arrays, won't my memory, you know, fill up? 06:55:45 which is absurd, but.. whatever. I have no idea where it goes. 06:55:46 -!- asdf1234 [i=812131fb@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c162d69eb10fff1c] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:56:09 Sikander: won't the huge arrays determine the memory usage at that point? 06:56:34 my ECL is also using 55M+ right now 06:56:47 59M* 06:57:10 hefner: sure... but it's also shocking to see that when I do one silly thing in the listener, memory usage goes from 107M to 122M. After one thing... 06:57:20 which is not "a huge array" 06:57:34 How do you measure that memory usage? 06:57:40 that's because CLIM is not a big array. 06:57:44 you can't just dump stuff on it 06:57:47 it's a series of streams. 06:57:49 haha 06:58:03 I'm not "measuring" it, I'm just looking at what the clim listener reports. 06:58:32 when I start the clim listener, it states that 107M is used. When I just clear the history (mind you, I didn't run anything), it jumps to 132M 06:58:34 (of course, of that 40 mb at startup, I guess it's almost entirely the sbcl.core, and shared between processes. I hope?) 06:58:57 -!- _stern_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45CB4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:58:57 it isn't like it's going to keep growing and growing 06:58:59 What's the extra 25M then? 06:59:00 it just oscillates a bit 06:59:04 Sikander: Garbage perhaps? 06:59:21 Sikander: Run the garbage-collector and see whether it goes down 06:59:32 god knows, all the garbage it accumulated between the last time it updated that. I bet the editor burns through crazy garbage. 06:59:45 eni4ever [n=admin@79.114.44.73] has joined #lisp 06:59:47 Sikander: garbage collectors aren't really very predictable. They usually just collect stuff when they feel like it, or have to. 07:00:14 Sikander: so even if you start racking up some garbage, it'll trigger a full GC at some point, maybe, once you pass some threshold (possibly) 07:00:16 hefner: the core gets GCed normally on magjor collections. So one major GC and nearly everything's copied and not shared anymore. 07:00:37 huh. 07:00:49 but I didn't _do_ anything, there shouldn't be any garbage (or at least, not that much)! (or should there? Only time... will tell...) 07:00:53 well, that's good and bad, I guess. 07:01:05 it makes sense that clim would suck up some ramz, though, I guess. 07:01:26 Well, as long as what hefner said, that it won't keep growing but just oscillates a bit, I'm fine with that. 07:02:06 You know, this is all psychological; if that number wouldn't be reported, I wouldn't have cared! 07:02:12 *Sikander* is slightly paranoid. 07:02:19 Sikander: sbcl uses a generational GC, too. 07:02:34 pkhuong: In the disassembly of my post to sbcl-devel there are lots of CMP REG, magic-number. The magic numbers are tagging related? Where can I look them up? 07:02:40 if you want to get a better sense of it, you could read the documentation for it. Might give you a better idea of what to expect. 07:02:52 remember, if that grows 20 MB, that isn't a consequence of just your form. that's all the interaction with the program since the last form (floats and things consed during repainting, garbage from the editing the form, reading, etc) 07:03:01 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:03:04 plus, doesn't SBCL still compile that form you typed by default? 07:03:13 so, nyaaah. 07:03:21 This is of course because of the damn malloc/free stuff in C; I just am not used to "trusting" a GC 07:03:25 depends on how complex the form was 07:03:32 tcr: sb-vm::foo-bar-lowtag 07:03:51 and sb-vm::*-widetag 07:03:58 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 07:04:09 Sikander: Run (sb-ext:gc :full t), does it go down? You can use (room) to get additional information. 07:04:13 pkhuong: Thanks 07:04:51 You can also read src/compiler/generic/early-objdef.lisp 07:05:23 tcr: yeah, it goes down. Darn, have to get used to GC... In principle, I never have to call the gc manually, right? 07:05:47 Sikander: How much is it now? 07:05:54 tcr: 102M 07:06:01 Highest was 132M 07:06:05 Did you try ROOM? you get some nice statistics on which objects consume how much 07:06:41 fwiw, free rarely relinquishes memory directly to the OS. 07:07:10 Sikander: correct - you just trust the GC to do its job in the background. 07:07:38 I see about a million cons objects and thousands of code, simple-vector, instance and other objects 07:07:58 pkhuong: Yeah, that's true. 07:08:19 -!- _Richard_ [n=Rich@95.132.252.194] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:08:33 Actually, make that 1.6 million cons objects... That's a lot. 07:08:36 I believe unused space can still sometimes be misreported as conses. 07:08:47 ok 07:08:48 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:09:27 Anyway, I'll play around a bit and read up on memory usage in sbcl, what "normal" numbers are, so that I know not to worry :) 07:09:29 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:09:30 Sikander: the lesson to take away is don't be afraid of creating lots of short-lived data structures if that's going to be the best way to arrange your algo/program - the GC can handle it. 07:10:15 So I shouldn't worry too much and reuse memory (like you often do in complicated ways in C)? 07:10:38 no, not very often. 07:11:07 Ok, thank you gentlemen, and excuse my sudden panic. 07:12:42 asksol [n=ask@062249179164.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 07:17:13 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 07:18:23 mega1 [n=mega@pool-0607d.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:21:21 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:21:32 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:21:40 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 07:21:50 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 07:22:51 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:22:55 splittist` [n=dmurray@122-158.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:28:42 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@122-158.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:31:08 pkhuong: is there a way to dump a purified, permanent core? 07:31:33 -!- asksol [n=ask@062249179164.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:34:25 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:03 asksol [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 07:40:42 segv [n=mb@p4FC1C8A4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:10 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:42:43 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-141-106.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:43:01 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:43:12 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-30-209.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:43:53 -!- splittist` [n=dmurray@122-158.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:44:22 good morning 07:45:02 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 07:45:19 -!- eni4ever [n=admin@79.114.44.73] has quit [Client Quit] 07:47:09 jmbr [n=jmbr@227.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 07:47:14 -!- Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.71.10] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 07:51:22 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:53:17 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:54:30 -!- blandest1 is now known as blandest 07:56:18 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.230.219] has joined #lisp 07:58:47 while using clisp to compile clg i get this error: BYTE is a built-in type and may not be redefined" 07:59:02 wazzup wid dat shiznazzle ? 07:59:37 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-138-193-165.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:01:02 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:02:10 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:44 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:04:57 aunwork [n=aunwork@mail.ionicsoft.com] has joined #lisp 08:07:46 clg probably forgets to :shadow BYTE 08:08:30 asksol_ [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 08:10:10 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:12:10 couloir [n=chatzill@96.49.120.130] has joined #lisp 08:12:37 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:17:10 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:17:58 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:19:46 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:20:22 elias` [n=c@host86-159-170-69.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:21:28 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 08:21:45 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:21:56 -!- asksol [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:23:22 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 08:24:08 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:24:16 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 08:37:43 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 08:37:57 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:37:59 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:39:25 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 08:44:17 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:44:20 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 08:44:24 what's missing from ECL that's preventing it from being fully compliant? 08:45:00 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:45:05 also, any thoughts about overall ECL performance? (how does it compare to clisp/ccl/sbcl/etc?) 08:46:15 it is reputed to be impressively.. slow. deservedly? I couldn't say. 08:46:23 sykopomp: I haven't run any benchmarks, but afaik ECL is very close regarding ANSI compliance. 08:46:39 well, it depends if you are using bytecompiled code or native compiled 08:46:50 it's really really tiny 08:46:52 I'm impressed. 08:47:21 it's smaller than python on startup(!!!) 08:48:02 hefner: I think it got better meanwhile, its compiler even does some type inference now 08:48:22 sykopomp: have you played already with compilation options? :) 08:48:30 eni4ever [n=admin@79.114.44.73] has joined #lisp 08:48:32 *stassats* wouldn't measure anything realtive to python 08:48:46 my ecl dabblings ended when it couldn't compile clx without segfaulting. =/ 08:48:48 p_l: nah, I'm just peeking at it. It never caught my eye before. 08:48:55 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:48:55 it has threads and shiz. 08:49:06 hefner: didn't it include it's own copy of CLX? 08:49:15 I don't recall. 08:49:19 it does, yes. 08:49:31 sykopomp: well, it's images are native shared libraries 08:49:55 ECL sounds nice for simple apps that you don't want to load up 50megs over 08:49:56 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-141-106.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:50:13 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-141-199.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:50:39 although you probably may as well use clisp, I guess (unless you want threads?...) 08:50:54 ZabaQ [n=johnc@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 08:51:19 sykopomp: an ASDF-defined system can be easily compiled into shared lib in ECL. Plus, ECL has threads and unicode, even on win32 (and compiles on MS stack) 08:51:34 ooo 08:51:35 shiny 08:52:08 why are there languages other than lisp, again? 08:52:10 I missed the memo. 08:52:16 :) 08:52:20 haha 08:52:59 *sykopomp* likes being cheerful about lisp. None of this curmudgeonry. 08:52:59 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:53:00 Because of the great parenthensis shortage of 1961 08:53:07 sykopomp: it's functional and interpreted 08:53:18 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 08:53:20 stassats: oh right 08:53:29 ZabaQ: there -is- that whole AI-winter thing. 08:53:35 but we don't talk about that anymore. 08:53:36 >_> 08:58:26 'good-morning 08:58:30 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:58:33 ooooh 08:58:38 gcl is in AUR 09:01:41 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 09:02:12 -!- jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:02:56 KingNato_ [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 09:03:56 I've got this nice mapc loop, but now I want an early exit from it 09:04:10 Phoodus: return-from? :) 09:04:26 *Phoodus* looks it up 09:05:42 cool, that looks like the trick 09:06:01 easier to migrate than breaking out the map into a recursive function 09:06:04 Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 09:06:50 scode_ [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 09:06:53 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 09:07:04 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:07:23 (block mapc-loop (mapc (lambda ... (return-from mapc-loop 'something)) ,@body)) 09:07:35 yep 09:08:01 the return-from will be the common case. Is that a performance issue or no? 09:08:14 *shrug* 09:09:11 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-0-9.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:09:22 i'd use DOLIST 09:09:56 (dolist (i list) (print i) (when i (return i))) 09:10:41 hmm, that'd take some reshuffling 09:11:02 I've been punished by the OS-maintenance deities 09:11:20 waited too long for an update, now I have 1gb to download. :\ 09:11:40 man. Every single large package updated. 09:11:47 goodnight, #lisp 09:11:56 better than upgrading gentoo... 09:12:13 p_l: I spent a couple of years on gentoo. Totally agree :) 09:12:48 don't update at all 09:13:14 :( 09:13:28 I can't have bleeding edge that way. 09:13:38 <_3b> well, get a faster connection then :p 09:13:49 like you can tell the difference 09:13:52 (I could go back to my original plan of getting some sleep) 09:14:02 (only if by more crashes) 09:14:27 stassats: Pretty stable here. I'd just rather not have packages that have 3-month-old bugs :) 09:14:34 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@227.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:15:01 unlike my old gentoo system, this one's pretty reliable. Rolling release hasn't been a problem. 09:15:02 gentoo has the positive of an extremely easy way of rolling your own packages when you *do* need a newer version 09:15:20 and having a number of versions simultaneusly in the tree. 09:15:28 (know I spelt it wrong) 09:15:43 multiple versions is okay. 09:15:57 less of a point to it when you can just change a number in a script and rebuild it, though. 09:16:17 but I guess you gotta make up an excuse to use all that server space when you don't pack binaries, I guess :) 09:16:29 *sykopomp* guesses. 09:16:29 Yeah. That's probably the main reason why I stick with gentoo. 09:16:46 alright, I'm out. 09:16:48 sykopomp: note, it not only fixes old bugs, but introduces twice as more new bugs 09:17:25 stassats: not my experience. Stable system. Pretty happy :) 09:17:28 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:17:42 same here. 09:17:45 cya 09:17:46 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 09:18:26 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:35 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 09:18:35 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 09:19:03 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-227.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:19:38 -!- tic_ [n=tic@c83-249-195-183.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:22:26 -!- scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:24:35 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-50-31.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:27:01 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:28:27 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.248.250] has joined #lisp 09:28:38 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-66-23.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:29:34 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 09:31:19 fasta [n=a@217.109.160.5] has joined #lisp 09:31:24 -!- ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:31:27 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-50-31.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:35:12 -!- blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:39:16 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 09:40:16 where does linedit set the characters for the prompt ? 09:42:10 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:42:11 udzinari [n=udzinari@94.43.70.11] has joined #lisp 09:42:26 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 09:42:28 [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.177] has joined #lisp 09:42:48 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 09:43:51 -!- udzinari [n=udzinari@94.43.70.11] has left #lisp 09:45:42 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 09:46:41 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.143.51] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:48:18 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-99.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:48:42 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-211.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 09:51:01 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.177] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 09:52:02 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:52:16 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:54:23 udzinari [n=udzinari@94-43-70-11.dsl.utg.ge] has joined #lisp 09:55:39 ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:57:44 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-1216.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 09:58:18 -!- couloir [n=chatzill@96.49.120.130] has quit ["beep"] 10:02:36 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:38 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-66-23.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:02:59 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-66-23.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:03:47 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:04:53 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:06:06 I though (ps:ps (create :foo "bar")) would give {"foo":"bar"}. But it does not do that in my repl. What am I missing? 10:06:46 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-101-138.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:07:54 (ps:ps (ps:create :foo "bar")) ... Why do I ask, and find the answer my self? 10:08:24 Because the answer lies in the question. 10:08:43 Now go sweep the patio! 10:08:58 jmbr [n=jmbr@227.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:09:09 (scnr ;-) ) 10:09:36 I'll open an irc channel for me only, then I can ask and answer everything myself :) 10:09:52 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 10:10:09 And it should be lisp only, and I'll kick out everyone talking about anything else 10:11:49 why (string-trim '(#\Space #\Tab #\Newline) nil) return "NIL" ; does it make seense 10:12:41 more importantly, is nil a string? 10:13:56 it's a string designator 10:14:59 indeed. 10:16:13 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:20:52 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:21:49 prabuinet: Why is the argument to string-trim nil at that point? 10:33:38 dys [n=andreas@p5B31441C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:05 merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has joined #lisp 10:36:08 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:38:27 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-211.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 10:42:55 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:07 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 10:50:37 danlei [n=user@pD9E2EB22.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:46 li 10:52:53 ho 10:54:38 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:55:03 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:55:55 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483C031.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:42 Blkt [n=blkt@net-93-146-152-69.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 10:59:57 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:49 *Phoodus* needs more monitors... 11:01:08 reference, internal specs, xemacs, eclipse... need to see all at once :-P 11:03:42 more monitors? or just bigger? 11:04:15 well, either or 11:04:27 more monitors is actually pretty handy in that you can fullscreen windows easily 11:04:31 pair of 24's works pretty well for me :P 11:04:32 -!- dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:04:40 yeah, I've got a 24 and a 17 11:04:47 I miss my CRT ;-( 11:04:48 Phoodus: Try a tiling window manager? ;-) 11:04:53 dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:00 Maddas: get behind me satan! 11:05:05 ;) 11:05:46 yea, I can't do the tiling thingy 11:06:47 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 11:10:49 phoodus why would you miss the monstrosities that were CRTs 11:11:46 if i was to use a CRT the same size as my current monitor i'd probably need a big desk, and then maybe a bigger room :p 11:12:27 sentences you don't often come across 11:12:32 "Both CLisp and SBCL do the Right Thing with a simple defconstant." 11:13:45 Guthur: CRTs can show black? ;D 11:13:47 -!- merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has quit [] 11:13:55 and they had IMHO nicer resolutions... :P 11:14:02 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6E9F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:02 Guthur: because CRTs have much higher pixel density, and much higher pixel count than LCDs 11:15:02 my eyesight an colour differentiation probably isn't that good, but flatscreens have got alot better at blacks over time 11:15:10 an/and 11:15:33 (well, without spending thousands on LCDs, for only the pixel count qualification) 11:16:35 CRTs were monsters though, for any decent size, i can now fit twice the amount of rubbish on my desk, means longer periods between tidying :p 11:17:15 tic [n=tic@c83-249-193-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:17:21 meh, they'd just hang off the back of the desk anyway 11:17:51 but now you need 3 LCDs just to best the resolution of 1 CRT, so that point's moot 11:20:24 i have little need for ultra high res though, would love a second monitor though, more room for windows would be nice, high res might allow that but then i would need a magnifying glass to see it :p 11:21:14 Why do you need 3 LCDs to best the resolution of 1 CRT? 11:21:29 -!- a-s [n=user@92.81.139.185] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:22:10 The biggest problem I've found with using multiple large monitors is having to turn your head to see everything 11:22:22 Phoodus: well, i got a 2560x1600 screen right here on my desk, and i really cannot imagine it being a CRT 11:22:36 nvoorhies: a 15yo, 17" CRT had pixel density good for 1600x1200 at full color, without any interlacing etc. And it had real black :D 11:22:40 or it would make my collegues walk past my desk around the other end of the room 11:23:18 jdz: you can make CRTs that are sized like LCD, though they might lose some of the pixel density... 11:23:24 <_3b> my last CRT did 2048x1536 or something like that, without taking up nearly as much horizontal space i suspect :) 11:23:49 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-152-5.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:23:53 well, i still get the 100dpi or so i think 11:24:14 <_3b> yeah, the problem is they don't make high DPI LCDs except for portable stuff :( 11:24:58 and OSes/desktops environments/GUIs are very bad at using higher dpi 11:25:20 but anyway, LCDs beat CRTs at perfect square geometry 11:26:05 Yeah, but it also had nasty signalling issues if the cable wasn't shielded as much as you'd like or if the video system manufacturer had gone cheap on components, etc. Plus all the distortion and problems like the picture getting wonky if you didn't degauss it properly, etc. 11:26:52 I was always under the impression dot pitch stabilized once they started assuming everyone had the same size desk and ran with it. 11:28:23 I'm looking forward to getting more than 8 bits per channel myself. 11:28:24 jdz: What's the inch size of that display of yours? 11:28:31 30" 11:28:36 jdz: And perhaps the model if you care to share the details? 11:28:44 well, the apple cinema one 11:28:47 ah, thx 11:28:52 I've got one of those too. 11:28:54 and no, i did not buy it myself 11:29:08 the Dells are 2x cheaper i think 11:29:22 I'mnot sure if it's still the case, but there used to be only one factory making 30" 2560x1600 panels 11:29:27 don't know about the quality though 11:30:33 They used to be the same panels, but Dell would futz with the driving electronics to get faster color transition times, and apple backed off in the interest of color correctness if I remember right. 11:30:42 i think i would rather have two smaller ones than one large, have my coding in one and then reference material in the other 11:30:49 That's as of 3 years ago or so though 11:30:55 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:31:25 cracki [n=cracki@40-244.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:33:53 lol my cat thinks the printer is something to play with, not good 11:34:07 Isn't it? :) 11:34:17 merimus [n=wroth@63.94.127.49] has joined #lisp 11:34:18 <_3b> you should teach it where the button to feed paper is :p 11:35:13 hhh if it could add the paper it would be nice 11:35:31 Guthur: At least it isn't programming in perl 11:35:37 paper? like hardcopy? 11:36:06 <_3b> merimus: dunno, just something i saw in a youtube video once :) 11:36:23 merimus, indeed i don't usually do it, but RFC documents are two long to be reading on the monitor, and i want to read over it a couple of time 11:36:24 _eb: damn kids 11:36:34 s/two/too 11:36:57 Guthur: oh god...rfc's are bad... not as bad as thesis or patents... but bad nonetheless 11:37:05 *_3b* actually has a box of wide format dot matrix paper laying around somewhere, not had an actual printer set up in years though 11:37:06 actually RFCs are to long to reading fullstop 11:37:09 :p 11:37:25 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 11:37:31 Guthur: actually that depends on the rfc 11:37:46 LDAP 11:37:53 I got one of those sony reader things and it's lovely for reading text, even if the screen's a bit small for normal A4/letter size pages 11:38:11 Paper's still king because you can write the margins though. 11:38:29 dys` [n=andreas@p5B317B9F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:05 and not likely to have a bad react to the bath, well actually both don't survive to well, but paper is more...well disposable 11:39:35 You have to be able to search easily, and write notes... then the ereaders will rock 11:40:12 The fancier sony thing supports notes... I think kindle lets you search. It's just about there now. 11:40:41 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:41:18 iLiad supports notes, as well as it's bigger version DR1000 (which has it optional) 11:41:22 having the oreily zoo in one would rock 11:41:34 however, they have shorter battery range than most 11:41:43 otoh, you could run lisp on them 11:41:44 they are very costly pieces of kit 11:41:54 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:41:58 the kindles that is 11:42:26 but then so is printer ink :| 11:42:33 I think illiad/dr were more expensive than Kindle 11:42:39 But they IMHO have much more power 11:42:51 I had an SD card with 4 gigs or so of computer books on my older sony thingie 11:43:21 It's pretty handy if you feel like reading in bed or on some kind of transot 11:43:23 transit 11:43:39 *p_l* would like to see McCLIM running on iLliad 11:43:43 And the battery would last a few weeks without recharging 11:44:22 though McCLIM would require reworking input support, probably... 11:44:36 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:43 both iLliad and DR1000 are essentially Linux-powered PDAs with e-ink display 11:46:03 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 11:46:09 well that's the RFC printed, now to start sleeping, i mean reading :p 11:47:05 mib_ttw2yvcf [i=51e52219@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3f262fcf494258ca] has joined #lisp 11:47:46 You should take one of the big nasty words they like to sprinkle through those and replace it with "strippers"... makes them more entertaining to read 11:49:46 the LDAP one isn't so bad, just a lot of attributes to the protocol, and what not, so i will be referencing it a lot, i think i might take a highlighter pen to it 11:49:53 -!- caddar [n=adam@c-76-123-153-35.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:50:18 reading the mpls rfc's requires strippers 11:50:23 -!- mib_ttw2yvcf [i=51e52219@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3f262fcf494258ca] has left #lisp 11:50:50 hahaha 11:50:58 is the protocol at least sane? 11:51:22 it is sane... but there are somethink like 60 rfc which define extensions and whatnot 11:52:38 could be worse 11:52:48 always can be worse :P 11:53:03 *p_l* wonders when he will see XML at L2 11:53:54 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:54:34 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:55:01 -!- eni4ever [n=admin@79.114.44.73] has quit [Client Quit] 11:55:34 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B31441C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:55:41 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 11:59:02 Damn.. a discussion about the iliad in #lisp, and I missed it... 12:00:44 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:01:00 I have an iliad.. best mucho bucks I spent in years.. but I'd like to get a LISP running on it, should look into that 12:06:37 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:08:36 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:10:58 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:12:48 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:14:00 ECL and clisp should work without problems 12:14:07 I wonder what is the display system 12:14:37 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:35 -!- fasta [n=a@217.109.160.5] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:15:52 You should look for a ARM gcc cross compiler, and then indeed, clisp or ecl will probably work. Some work will probably be needed about the REPL, since I guess the Iliad doesn't have a "console"... 12:16:28 matimago: You could run ssh on it, I guess 12:18:00 there is some ultra portable computers coming out now, probably be a better option, even smaller than EeePC 12:18:40 but then its not really a page reader, but for mobile lisping it would be super :p 12:19:19 just bought my wife a eeepc... nice little machine 12:19:48 Yeah, I already have ssh running which I use to run mc for file managing work on it 12:19:49 Well, I guess if you can attach a keyboard of some sort, anything can be used to program. But the point is probably to develop smart applications not needing conventionnal peripherals. 12:19:56 i nearly bought one last year, but these look pretty good to and ultra cheap, around £60 12:20:26 p_l: it's just linux, someone already had gtk stuff running on it 12:20:26 well according to the Sunday Times last week anyway, though i didn't like the biased nature of the article 12:20:47 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:20:49 although the screen updating works a bit differently, because it's epaper 12:21:17 (and someone actually had debian arm running on it.. apt-get and all) 12:27:38 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:28:10 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:29:31 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:35:06 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:35:12 mrSpec_ [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 12:36:28 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:37:20 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 12:40:14 phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 12:42:16 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 12:43:06 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:45:01 thijso: I know it is just linux, I'm wondering about display system in use - i.e. does it have X11 implementation, or some framebuffer or something else 12:45:11 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.216.195] has joined #lisp 12:45:13 morning 12:47:02 mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 12:48:59 -!- mrSpec_ is now known as mrSpec 12:52:55 tombom_ [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 12:53:14 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:53:43 p_l how did they meeting go, or is it later 12:54:08 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:55:31 Guthur: Going to talk over the phone, too far away to meet in person today 12:56:23 If I get them to answer the phone ... 12:56:38 (it will second talk and few emails already) 12:58:44 never like telephone meetings much myself, it was a lovely day here a moment ago, not its hailstones :s 12:58:54 s/not/now 12:59:36 now big rain, probably snow in a minute 13:01:24 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 13:01:26 Guthur: where are you located? 13:01:52 Northern Ireland 13:01:57 /#join #debian 13:02:10 Guthur: but snow at this time of the year?? 13:02:10 -!- merimus [n=wroth@63.94.127.49] has quit [] 13:02:14 isn't that strange? 13:02:26 Adamant [n=Adamant@24-231-157-130.static.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:02:37 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:02:53 snow at midsummer - wouldn't be the first time 13:02:57 ya that would be strange, nah i was just joking, but it really was lovely and sunny until about 5 mins ago 13:03:23 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:03:28 there were briefly hailstones in Dublin last month :) 13:04:31 ok .-) 13:05:56 -!- prabuinet [n=prabu@221.134.21.34] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:06:43 Davse_Bamse: better than school closing due to cold in April. In Europe (well, heating system failed, but it was still cold enough to stop years 1~3 from coming) 13:07:59 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:08:04 what, younger children are more likely to freeze? 13:08:26 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:43 rsynnott: and lose less from not attending lessons for one day 13:08:56 rsynnott: yes. Basic surface-area to volume consideration 13:09:54 also, often lower defences 13:10:31 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.18] has joined #lisp 13:10:46 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:11:13 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:11:29 hello 13:11:37 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:11:50 -!- tombom_ [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:18:18 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-1216.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:20:25 ok, it took a while but i've gotten cl-clg working 13:20:37 zophy: how ? 13:21:45 i used the newest versions of everything and put them together 13:22:20 ended up using sbcl too 13:27:27 Davse_Ba1se [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has joined #lisp 13:29:24 Ha!, my example / test file now runs with my auto-generated Ogre bindings as well. 13:29:26 *aerique* does a little dance 13:31:31 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:09 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:33:20 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 13:34:57 dat [n=dthomp@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:15 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.216.195] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:35:29 -!- michael__ [n=michael@wsip-70-166-141-212.fv.ks.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:36:52 brothers [n=brothers@rrcs-24-103-64-162.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:39:15 aerique: cool! 13:39:21 mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 13:39:22 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:41:50 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:42:59 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:45:09 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:47:02 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:48:55 -!- Davse_Ba1se [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:49:00 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has joined #lisp 13:49:38 seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 13:50:41 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit [Client Quit] 13:54:34 aerique: what did you use to generate the bindings? 13:56:46 H3MLOCK [n=ZaQ@119.152.86.191] has joined #lisp 13:56:56 hi 13:57:11 can anyone tell me any good resource for learning lisp? 13:57:27 [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.177] has joined #lisp 13:58:07 p_l: bit late, but it's more or less just X11 with a specialty display driver (and some tweaks to minimise screen updates I think it was) 13:58:23 -!- H3MLOCK [n=ZaQ@119.152.86.191] has quit [Client Quit] 13:58:41 H3MLOCK this isn't bad for starters - http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 13:59:13 then just start getting your hands dirty with the language would be good idea, experiment :) 13:59:18 Guthur: too late 13:59:22 -!- TauPan [n=taupan@dudelab.org] has left #lisp 13:59:34 huh? that was fast 14:00:07 hhh, i actually was reading the book at the time :p 14:00:14 PCL is great 14:00:33 oh he left 14:00:45 i was wondering what you meant kuwabara 14:01:44 ZabaQ: it probably says more about me than the tools I tried but after trying out different approaching including SWIG and Verrazzano / Fetter I finally decided to write my own using Doxygen XML output 14:02:45 aerique: what about gccxml? 14:04:41 merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:58 -!- cracki [n=cracki@40-244.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 14:05:17 matimago: that was an option as well, I preferred Doxygen's output 14:05:27 prxq [n=mommer@78.50.207.49] has joined #lisp 14:05:36 hi 14:05:45 hi there 14:09:26 elias` [n=c@host86-159-170-69.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:09:46 -!- pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:10:29 willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:13:48 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:15:00 aerique: did you try it on templates? 14:15:33 not that gccxml claims to be complete either... 14:18:27 -!- ZabaQ [n=johnc@playboxgames.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:18:42 matimago: i get usable information for templates but support for that is still very much on my to-do list :) (like overloaded members) 14:19:09 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:17 I'll have to have a look at Doxygen xml output, but for now, I'm doing my FFI by hand. Actually, the API of C libraries is usually so bad that I'm even considering rewritting some of these libraries in Lisp... 14:20:18 wg1024 [n=wg1024@ip-80-226-14-77.vodafone-net.de] has joined #lisp 14:20:29 -!- wg1024 [n=wg1024@ip-80-226-14-77.vodafone-net.de] has left #lisp 14:20:48 Should be less work than doing the FFI + the thick wrapper needed to be able to use it... 14:21:48 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 14:22:28 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-41-17.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:07 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-141-199.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:23:10 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:23:33 -!- merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has quit [] 14:26:05 -!- mega1 [n=mega@pool-0607d.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:26:39 I prefer handwritten, "make the bindings as you need 'm" FFIs but Ogre's just too big for that. My hand-written bindings were getting too big. 14:28:56 nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:13 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:29:13 merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has joined #lisp 14:29:21 G'morning all. 14:29:31 mornin 14:29:46 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.248.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:29:54 hi nyef 14:29:55 aerique: well, if you have veleities of distributing the FFI, it's better if it's complete. 14:29:58 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.248.250] has joined #lisp 14:30:12 matimago: there's also a lot of duplication an inheritance in Ogre.. basically the same input and output parameters with different function names, lots of getters and setters, so it seemed like an ideal candidate :) 14:30:31 Well, in lisp we'd write a couple of macros... 14:31:10 i briefly toyed with the idea of porting it.. very briefly 14:32:56 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:34:12 ZabaQ [n=johnc@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 14:34:29 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-0-9.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:34:37 thijso: standard X11... sounds good. I need to get one :) 14:36:14 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.241.138] has joined #lisp 14:36:29 pity they are so expensive 14:42:49 Hunh. Yet another use-case for SBCL/ARM? 14:43:47 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-11-151.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:44:21 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.248.250] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:48:49 -!- merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has quit [] 14:50:37 merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has joined #lisp 14:51:00 -!- merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:51:27 merimus [n=wroth@63.94.127.49] has joined #lisp 14:52:08 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-2.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:53:03 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-2.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:55:12 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-101-138.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:56:12 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-176.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:56:13 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-2.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:58:25 pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 14:58:33 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 14:58:39 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:59:47 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 14:59:54 anyone been using the same GUI bindings / package on both Unix and Windows and would call said package stable? 15:00:14 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 15:00:20 Davidbrcz [n=david@193.52.24.125] has joined #lisp 15:00:30 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:01:26 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:03:09 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:05:48 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@227.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:05:48 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 15:06:15 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:07:50 billstclai [n=billstcl@dsl-205-231-150-35.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:42 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:08:50 -!- billstclai is now known as billstclair 15:09:21 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.144.196] has joined #lisp 15:11:22 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has joined #lisp 15:12:16 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@193.52.24.125] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:12:45 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:12:48 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:58 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 15:14:24 -!- dat [n=dthomp@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:15:51 rolly1975 [n=rory@193.108.73.27] has joined #lisp 15:15:59 pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has joined #lisp 15:17:00 milanj [n=milan@91.150.101.6] has joined #lisp 15:17:35 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:19:45 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has quit ["leaving"] 15:21:57 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:22:52 -!- brothers [n=brothers@rrcs-24-103-64-162.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:23:14 cemerick [n=la_mer@75-147-38-122-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:23 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:23:38 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:24:06 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 15:24:35 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.150.101.6] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:24:45 brothers [n=brothers@rrcs-24-103-64-162.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:25:36 -!- dys` is now known as dys 15:27:51 -!- pemryan is now known as pem 15:28:44 eni4ever [n=admin@79.114.44.73] has joined #lisp 15:32:55 lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 15:33:06 milanj [n=milan@91.150.101.6] has joined #lisp 15:33:44 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:34:09 It 15:34:29 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:34:44 It's kind of eery seeing the compiler be invoked due to clos machinery in slime-autodoc 15:34:59 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:35:22 I have some format calls sprinkled around in sbcls compiler code, and out of nothing stuff will get printed to the repl 15:35:37 that's pretty normal 15:36:16 tcr: *evaluator-mode* :interpret. 15:36:20 clos dispatch takes a while to settle down, so to speak, since a lot of things are done lazily 15:36:46 And slime often sends forms for evaluation. 15:36:54 hi pkhuong! 15:36:55 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75-147-38-122-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 15:37:13 hello 15:37:19 sure it's just eery 15:38:08 When I think there are good odds my changes will hose compilation, I introduce a new special variable to toggle the modifications on only around specific calls to COMPILE. 15:40:22 i ,restart-inferior-lisp a LOT since i'm too lazy to do that always when i should... 15:40:33 dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 15:41:35 -!- asksol_ [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:45:58 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-193-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["leaving"] 15:48:03 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:49:21 you people and your modifications 15:49:27 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:49:49 -!- eni4ever [n=admin@79.114.44.73] has quit [Client Quit] 15:50:13 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 15:53:36 -!- jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:54:02 jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 15:54:08 milanj- [n=milan@91.150.101.6] has joined #lisp 15:56:26 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:58:37 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-61-51.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:58:56 what's broken? 15:59:00 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:00:28 nyef: A very nice use case for SBCL/ARM :P 16:00:39 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:02:40 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.150.101.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:05:26 -!- prxq [n=mommer@78.50.207.49] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:05:38 rread [n=rread@192.18.41.196] has joined #lisp 16:09:36 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-710d1ad15f3302be] has joined #lisp 16:11:05 -!- ironChicken [n=richard@mx.lurk.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:12:14 tic [n=tic@c83-249-193-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:12:36 -!- Schaefer [n=rileygoo@38.117.250.220] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:12:51 Schaefer [n=rileygoo@38.117.250.220] has joined #lisp 16:13:30 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:14:12 -!- Blkt [n=blkt@net-93-146-152-69.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has left #lisp 16:14:43 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:14:43 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-11-151.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:49 -!- s0ber_ [i=pie@118-168-239-86.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:15:29 Blkt [n=blkt@net-93-146-152-69.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 16:17:48 (setf foo (lambda (x) (* x x))) 16:17:49 asksol [n=ask@062249179105.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 16:17:50 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-61-51.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:17:58 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-30-209.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:18:17 -!- rread [n=rread@192.18.41.196] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:18:31 (defun foo (x) (* x x))) 16:18:46 what are the differences between the too foo's? 16:19:11 the former assigns to symbol-value, the letter to symbol-function 16:19:17 clhs symbol-value 16:19:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_5.htm 16:20:33 (defun does a little more) 16:22:13 mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:23:58 leo2007: the difference is that it's not scheme? ;) 16:24:06 jmbr [n=jmbr@72.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:25:01 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 16:26:25 -!- Blkt [n=blkt@net-93-146-152-69.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:26:39 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:15 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 16:28:23 how to make the first assign symbol-function without using defun 16:28:53 (setf (symbol-function 'foo) (lambda (x) (* x x))) 16:29:34 -!- ZabaQ [n=johnc@playboxgames.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:30:24 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:30:41 how to get the plist of a symbol? 16:30:55 I am trying to see foo's plist 16:31:21 clhs symbol-plist 16:31:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_4.htm 16:31:30 Blkt_ [n=blkt@net-93-146-152-69.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 16:31:30 that returns nil 16:31:50 that means that there's nothing in its plist 16:32:16 -!- Blkt_ [n=blkt@net-93-146-152-69.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Client Quit] 16:32:20 Blkt [n=blkt@net-93-146-152-69.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 16:33:01 ok 16:33:16 I am reading a book that says 16:33:26 A lambda expression is not a form, so it can not be evaluates. 16:33:32 is that statement true? 16:34:44 i think it's out of context 16:34:49 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:34:50 It is true, for some values of true. 16:36:04 stassats`: there's no context for that statement 16:36:53 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483C031.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:37:53 -!- Blkt [n=blkt@net-93-146-152-69.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:38:55 Blkt [n=blkt@net-93-146-152-69.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 16:38:55 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 16:39:53 -!- brothers [n=brothers@rrcs-24-103-64-162.nyc.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 16:40:21 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:40:39 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:54 -!- Blkt [n=blkt@net-93-146-152-69.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Client Quit] 16:43:41 -!- cp2 [n=will@unaffiliated/cp2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:43:45 Blkt [n=blkt@net-93-146-152-69.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 16:43:53 cp2 [n=will@67.202.101.40] has joined #lisp 16:44:42 -!- Blkt [n=blkt@net-93-146-152-69.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Client Quit] 16:44:57 flet and labels is like let and let*, is this understanding correct? If yes, why not use flet* instead of labels 16:45:37 leo2007: backward compatibility was prioritized over consistency. You'll see that a lot in CL 16:46:45 the analogy with let/let* doesn't quite hold anyway 16:46:48 leo2007: flet* would be different to labels 16:47:03 leo2007: Labels allows for recursive definition, while LET* does not 16:48:21 Blkt [n=blkt@net-93-146-152-69.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 16:48:29 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:49:39 list and list* don't relate to let/let* at all, so flet* would be ok 16:50:15 leo2007: the actual convention is that * denotes doing something "a little differently" 16:50:22 but hs just says 'labels is equivalent to flet except that the scope of the defined function names for labels encompasses the function definitions themselves as well as the body.' 16:50:40 leo2007: that's right 16:51:13 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 16:51:24 -!- Orest is now known as Orest^bnc 16:51:28 leo meaning with labels a and b, a can call b and b can call a 16:51:39 -!- Orest^bnc is now known as Orest 16:52:05 but tcr's point is that a recursive local function can not be defined using flet while it can with labels 16:52:13 leo2007: it also means that if you have a global function foo, and you use labels foo, then calling foo will be recursive 16:52:29 leo2007: but if you use flet, using foo inside will call the global function 16:52:32 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 16:52:56 or signal an error if there is none 16:53:16 ok, how can I make the following statement closer to truth while remain easy to understand 16:53:34 'flet and labels is like let and let*' 16:53:51 remove it 16:54:46 leo2007: if you don't understand, don't use flet and labels 16:54:55 it's no great loss, in my humble opinion 16:55:07 or at least don't try to make analogies about them 16:55:17 yes, but other people use it and I need to read their code 16:55:23 I always end up moving them to a global scope anyway 16:55:26 Ragnaroek [i=54a67184@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c636764e38aff264] has joined #lisp 16:55:47 let/let* pair is for variables and flet/labels is for functions 16:55:48 leo2007: consider labels as a signifier that the function is going to be recursive 16:55:56 that are analog 16:56:05 and leave it at that. 16:56:34 leo2007: you mean let/let*/progv? 16:56:49 and prog/prog*? 16:57:34 dlowe: so in really labels is more like a combination of let* and letrec? 16:57:39 -in 16:57:52 I mean let/let* is for binding local variables and flet/labels local functions 16:57:57 r5rs letrec 16:57:57 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_idx_132 16:58:30 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:59:46 if there is going to be a revision on the cl standard, do you think case sensitive will be in it? 16:59:49 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:00 leo2007: I hope not 17:00:07 -!- Blkt [n=blkt@net-93-146-152-69.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:00:22 some apostates have made a cl "modern mode" that does that 17:00:25 why not? 17:00:31 Blkt [n=blkt@net-93-146-152-69.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 17:01:00 leo2007: why would you need thisVariable and thisvariable to mean different things? 17:01:02 well, why? 17:01:03 -!- Blkt [n=blkt@net-93-146-152-69.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Client Quit] 17:01:05 what good would it do? 17:01:08 because if you include a feature like case sensitivity in a language, people will use it 17:01:19 and there is already 'modern mode', which apparently no-one uses 17:01:22 and it is great 17:01:27 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:32 i think the casing is very clear cut as it is, everything get capitalised and that's it, but I'm only new to lisp 17:01:37 well, cl is case sensitive 17:01:50 I think I'd prefer "modern mode" were the default. I think. Except you'd have to beat anyone who started using camelcase. 17:01:51 case insensitive is ridiculous. See windows oses 17:02:01 you can use |thisVariable| and |thisvariable| 17:02:15 I would have preferred that the CL symbols defaulted to lowercase, but that's a nitpick 17:02:21 that's cumbersome 17:02:22 stassats`: that 17:02:23 well, this conversation is clearly going places fast 17:02:29 stassats`: that's an annoyingly verbose syntax though 17:02:45 xof certainly jumped :p 17:03:03 leo2007: perhaps you should not worry too much about revisions to the standard until you've learnt the existing language thoroughly 17:03:08 i was very interested in the flet etc discussion, must read up on that 17:03:12 lacedaemon [n=algidus@net-93-146-152-69.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 17:03:15 HET2: (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve) 17:03:45 (gentemp "GOO") and (gentemp "goo") use different prefixes 17:03:51 that's annoying 17:04:08 There's the door. 17:04:34 I prefer case-insensitivity in this case. Unless someone wants to type all standard names in uppercase by himself 17:04:54 leo2007: so you're so lazy you cannot write (gentemp (string-upcase prefix)) ? 17:05:10 since it case-insensitive, I'd expect it to be case-insensitive too 17:05:10 Blkt [n=Blkt@net-93-146-152-69.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 17:05:24 like I said: why not learn the language before saying wrong things about it? 17:05:26 leo2007: symbols are not case insensitive in lisp. 17:05:27 pjb: that's not my point. 17:05:37 pjb: you mean strings? 17:05:39 What Xof says. 17:05:40 your point is displaying your ignorance for all to see? 17:05:53 -!- lacedaemon [n=algidus@net-93-146-152-69.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Client Quit] 17:06:22 leo2007: well, you used two different strings and asked for symbol based on that... no problem in difference 17:07:21 sometimes I woe the introduction of case sensitivity into roman alphabet 17:07:34 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:07:37 in any case, there will never be a revision to the standard, so it's hardly worth worrying about :) 17:07:54 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:36 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.18] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:08:39 well, maybe not revision, but we might make an appendix out of cltl3 ;-) 17:08:49 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 17:08:53 for strings, case is significant 17:09:02 For symbols too! 17:09:13 how so? 17:09:18 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:09:31 (SETF (READTABLE-CASE *READTABLE*) :PRESERVE) 17:10:27 Then: '(abc ABC Abc) 17:11:04 (EQ 'a 'A) => NIL 17:11:59 :preserve is broken though; it renders all existing code useless .. so just don't bother IMHO 17:12:22 (eq 'a 'A) returns T in sbcl 17:12:49 poor Cambridge graduate students 17:13:00 leo2007: that's because you didn't do (setf ...) 17:13:02 jesus christ 17:13:24 lnostdal: ok for someone with NIH-syndrome 17:13:32 lnostdal: just use my emacs upcase-lisp command :-) 17:14:48 i-like-this .. it makes stuff like m-v-b --> multiple-value-bind possible .. so no matter :) 17:15:08 -!- rolly1975 [n=rory@193.108.73.27] has quit ["The computer fell asleep"] 17:16:30 no matter what you think of case insensitivity, maxima, the cas built on CL, has plan to change to case sensitive after 6.0 17:16:49 This is sensible. 17:17:02 case insensitivity is a very stupid thing that is there because of historical reasons, not merit 17:17:34 Did you just say there's no merit in source compatability with an existing code-base? 17:18:08 Well, you can always do (SETF (READTABLE-CASE *READTABLE*) :UPCASE) to read legacy code. 17:18:09 qbg [n=quickbas@65-73-86-56.dsl1.mnd.mn.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:22 nyef: I didn't mean that. I bet both can be done 17:18:38 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-11650.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 17:19:04 -!- sepisultrum [n=enigma@hcl-club.lu] has left #lisp 17:19:16 i could be misinterpreting, but what exactly is the merit of allowing symbols to represented by arbitrarily cased string values 17:19:37 Guthur: Pascal is not the same as pascal. 17:19:55 Pascal is a first name (or familly name, depending), while pascal is a unit name. 17:20:35 but if all symbols get upper cased it is, and why differentiate between two symbols by one cased letter, seems like it could be asking for trouble 17:20:37 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-0-99.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:20:43 especially with dynamic typing 17:21:03 Guthur: it is no problem in languages that are case sensitive. 17:21:21 Guthur: on the other hand, languages that ignore some information in identifier are problematic. 17:21:28 oh of course the language wont have a problem, its programmers i'm thinking of ;) 17:22:05 Guthur: then teach programmers a case sensitive language first, and they'll get their brain wired for case sensitive (as I am). 17:22:23 -!- Intensity [i=[1quCYO1@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:22:39 Guthur: also, there are other circumstances in real life where case is significant. Eg mHz vs MHz 17:22:59 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-66-88.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:24:23 just trying to work out what is to be achieved by changing something that doesn't on first look seem all that broken. I can deal with either setup quite well 17:24:40 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-e5ecf9c5c24a5be1] has joined #lisp 17:24:41 Xof: can you fix the old-sk00l eval-when conditions in clx/depdefs.lisp? 17:25:12 any of you ever uses the windows os? 17:25:20 s0ber [i=pie@118-168-238-3.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:52 leo2007 yep, it took about one casing mistake when i moved to linux to realise things had changed ;) 17:25:57 I think I've seen all extensions in upper case (maybe it is fixed lately) 17:26:17 Guthur: ;) 17:26:44 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@62-47-155-114.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:27:40 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:28:01 not too worried either way to be completely honest though, I don't think I would use case as the only differentiator between symbols no matter what the setup 17:29:30 too open to error, and humans are renown for their fallibility :) 17:30:41 No, I'm not worrying. Just curious whether there's consensus to move towards case sensitive 17:30:55 i think adding a "modern mode" to SBCL would be possible .. i don't think there is enough interest though 17:31:12 I'm actively opposed to it 17:31:29 ..there's so much other cool stuff 17:31:57 lnostdal agreed :) 17:32:13 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:32:48 are you worried it might create a split? .. where "modern mode" is not compatible with "normal mode"? .. that might be a problem 17:33:07 referring to dlowe btw. .. heh :) 17:33:18 I think if I had to make choice it would be to not have to worry about case 17:34:36 lnostdal: No, I'm just opposed to differentiating symbols via case-only. 17:35:02 yeah, but if some code is written in modern mode (by others; libraries etc.) you might be forced to have deal with it, Guthur .. i think - i haven't thought about this 17:35:29 dlowe, "adding" != replacing what's there 17:36:12 lnostdal, I should endeavour to be adaptable, not always the case, I can be opinionated :p 17:36:43 something the lisp newbies don't seem to realize is that there's two types of case insensitivity to talk about here. There's the reader case, and the casing of symbol names. 17:36:54 leo2007: case insensitive file system make you lose data. Eg when copying to such a file system files named README and ReadMe... (or more important files such as sources). So I'd push toward case sensitivity. 17:37:28 there's likely a pretty strong preference for case sensitivity among programmers weened on case sensitive systems like unix. 17:37:31 i'm just thinking it might create unresolvable conflicts and problems, Guthur .. (defparameter aThing) (defparameter athing) --> fail for others that want to use that code 17:37:47 leo2007: however, the need for luser to ignore case may be recognized, and I don't see any problem in providing user interfaces to search all the matching items case insensitively. But not in the fundamental mechanism, only at the user interface level. 17:37:52 pjb: yes, I used windows for 9 months and it is just unbearable 17:37:54 lnostdal: I will maintain that you probably don't want to use that code anyway 17:37:54 leo2007: Common Lisp got it right. 17:38:00 leo2007: indeed. 17:38:06 dlowe, yeah :) 17:38:17 i'm often annoyed by the interning reader; typos at the repl aren't rare. 17:38:33 Fade: there were DWIM readers... 17:38:37 lnostdal i try not to mix the case even though it is capitalised by the read, i'm lowercasing nearly everything 17:38:44 dinner time though :D 17:38:46 Fade: I have some difficulty imagining a non-interning reader 17:38:51 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-152-5.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:38:57 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 17:39:07 Fade: unless you mean that it simply shouldn't automatically intern anything 17:39:07 Fade: we should write a CDR for lisp reader hooks so we could implement such a think and hook it in existing REPL portably. 17:39:25 that's what I mean. 17:39:37 some explicit latch to trigger the reader. 17:39:51 leo2007: BTW, Windows is case-sensitive. It's turned off because apps written for windows aren't 17:40:20 Fade: perhaps you have a problem with something else. After all, the reader only interns in the read-time package. These symbols are not necessary found at compilation time, or at run time. 17:40:21 p_l: you mean the latest system, like vista or something? 17:40:40 leo2007: No, it was like that afaik in all versions of NT 17:41:06 well, the case I'm thinking of is trivial. mostly symbol polution caused by the reader interning a typo and getting autocompleted by slime forever after. 17:41:17 leo2007: Chuck out backward compatibility, and windows would suddenly suck less than Ubuntu ;-) 17:41:17 p_l: well, maybe that's legacy of win98 17:41:43 leo2007: it's legacy of programmers who can't be bothered to read manuals properly or write correct paths 17:42:43 I'd like a non-interning reader too, but only because it's a pain to read lisp programs for static analysis without mucking up the image 17:42:44 slyrus pasted "i figured out why tab-completion isn't working anymore" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81882 17:43:00 dlowe: *nod* 17:43:03 that's a good example. 17:43:05 dlowe: yup 17:43:31 p_l: anyway I only suffered windows for 9 months, not too bad 17:44:54 (directory "fo*.*") finds foo if foo is a file, but not if foo is a directory 17:45:11 -!- qbg [n=quickbas@65-73-86-56.dsl1.mnd.mn.frontiernet.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060215]"] 17:45:40 nikodemus: is that expected? 17:46:17 -!- froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:47:07 One good thing to come from this mess is that we have to be building a good list of what people rely on in the behavior of DIRECTORY... 17:47:11 Victory! Got it finally to work! Now the actual variable names instead of the containing form is highlighted for Undefined-variables, and unused variable warnings on SBCL 17:48:06 slyrus_: it is so in some other lisps also 17:50:34 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:53:28 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:54:50 -!- asksol [n=ask@062249179105.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 17:54:50 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.144.196] has quit [] 17:55:21 Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.121.200] has joined #lisp 17:55:45 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 17:57:47 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:58:28 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:00:36 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:03:02 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:59 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.254.103] has joined #lisp 18:07:55 -!- gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has left #lisp 18:08:04 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has quit [] 18:10:04 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:14:18 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 18:17:11 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 18:19:29 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.241.138] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:20:56 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:21:21 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:21:39 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 18:24:32 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1E28.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:24:38 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:25:01 benny [n=benny@i577A3329.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:27:55 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:29:13 ironChicken [n=nrichard@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 18:30:01 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:25 -!- dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:35:39 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:36:04 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:39:33 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.125.180] has joined #lisp 18:45:00 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 18:47:12 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.230.219] has quit ["Log this!"] 18:52:52 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:52:58 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:26 matimago- [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:26 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:56:03 didn't mean to kill the conversation... 18:58:52 you better have a good reason for interrupting. 18:59:13 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:00:00 -!- merimus [n=wroth@63.94.127.49] has quit [] 19:00:41 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:02:17 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 19:03:15 hsaliak: it's not LISP, it's Lisp. 19:05:12 postamar [n=postamar@69-196-138-13.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:06:20 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:49 jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:50 -!- lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:12:16 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:06 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-66-23.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 19:18:45 it's confusing when someone tells you that it's not LISP, then you type 'Lisp in REPL and you get LISP 19:18:54 lol 19:18:57 hehehe 19:19:08 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:19:12 also, in SIXBIT, it's still LISP ;-) 19:20:01 otoh, using unicode in symbols makes it much more interesting ^_^ 19:20:36 can anyone explain why SLIME has started opening up new buffers with source files for systems I've loaded? 19:20:46 sykopomp: using SBCL? 19:20:51 yes 19:21:04 p_l: then it would be: L\I\S\P since CL specifies 95 base characters. 19:21:06 sykopomp: it shows you files that had emitted notes/warnings etc. :) 19:21:08 sykopomp: for highlighting notes 19:21:13 do not want 19:21:33 every single thing I'm loading that decided to put (the foo bar) somewhere in their source seems to have given me a new buffer :( 19:22:03 sykopomp: no wai :P You can load them through (require ...) 19:22:09 is there something like jnil for cobol? (any useful parts for that kind of project would also be appreciated) 19:22:18 sykopomp: it doesn't trigger that 19:22:31 phf: you mean FFI to COBOL? 19:22:40 p_l: I was happy with ,load-system :( 19:23:22 phf: ah, COBOL -> Lisp? 19:23:26 p_l: no, jnil translates java code to near-runnable lisp 19:23:27 yes 19:23:55 -!- jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:23:56 well cobol to lisp would be a godsend, but some parts of that project (maybe a parser for starters) would be awesome 19:23:59 afaik no. There were ones for FORTRAN, but I don't know about COBOL 19:24:16 jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:58 that's what google says also 19:25:25 phf, i pity you if you have maintain cobol software 19:25:36 s/have/have to 19:26:21 Guthur: You know, for all its drudgery, COBOL knowledge means you have 100% job protection, iirc 19:26:25 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:26:29 Some lisp programmers earned a lot of money maintaining Cobol programs for Y2K... 19:26:41 p_l i had that job 19:26:43 hated it 19:26:45 mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 19:27:05 *p_l* was recommended it. By a guy IBM :P 19:27:21 lol of course they would, its all running on their kit 19:27:42 i had to do IBM assembler as well, slightly more exciting 19:27:51 but still soul destroying 19:28:15 *Guthur* hated his past career as a mainframe software maintainer 19:28:18 Guthur: Well, he was mostly an AIX/pSeries guy 19:28:46 frankly I'm happier unemployed :p 19:29:07 best i stop now or i could go into rant mode 19:29:26 Guthur: we have a tandem machine here with a whole lot of legacy code on it 19:29:55 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.177] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:30:11 -!- Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.121.200] has quit [No route to host] 19:30:32 ya the software we were maintaining was older than me 19:30:58 Good. Don't trust software younger than yourself! 19:31:24 ohh, tandem. Remember to keep some important routine outside of startup files so that it will require operator support :> (one of the worst WTFs I heard was when company kicked out their last Tandem admin... without migrating mission-critical stuff out of them) 19:31:31 i did get my first taste of C# and .net though, made so nice wee production tools 19:31:39 s/so/some 19:32:06 but because it wasn't my job the experience is effectively useless 19:32:27 i really feel rant mode coming, need to go back to reading 19:36:25 cobol is one of those languages you're supposed to complain about, but i feel like lisp gave me proper mental tools for handling any kind of insanity, so it's not that bad 19:36:45 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:37:09 Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.121.200] has joined #lisp 19:37:24 phf: I felt the same about C++: this is one of the downsides of lisp. 19:38:14 phf: Lisp *is*, imho, insanity. You just need to separate good, bad, and neutral kind of it :D 19:40:40 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:42:43 strangely cobol was the first language i learnt, at technical college, it was 1996 and because of the year 2000 bug the schools decide cobol was a good idea 19:42:48 p_l: my sentence was ambiguous. i don't mean that lisp is insane, i mean that it gives you framework for handling insanity. 19:43:19 i liked it then ok, but that was because i was, 'whao this programming stuff is cool' 19:45:18 the motorola 6502 was cooler though, i should get myself a bbc micro, if at all possible now 19:45:49 i wonder if it ever was able to run lisp 19:45:53 There are emulators. 19:46:02 Yes, plisp. 19:48:07 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 19:48:11 my lecturer was awesome though, this larger German hacker who loved anything as long as it wasn't a x86 19:50:57 phf: I understood it as such. It was me who called lisp insane ;D 19:51:04 haha 19:51:12 it's a good kind of insanity, though 19:51:41 what is sanity? 19:52:13 stassats`: I don't know, I never got a sane answer. 19:52:25 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm177.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:52:38 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-245-43.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 19:53:08 how can you know what is insanity without know what sanity is? 19:53:32 stassats`: I mean that I don't have proper definition. 19:54:25 motorola didn't make the 6502. 19:54:36 p_l: but you have examples? 19:55:28 stassats`: can't recall now 19:56:03 hefner: well, "MOS" makes many people mistake it for Motorola :-) 19:56:27 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:56:46 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:58:29 jlf [n=user@209.204.171.101] has joined #lisp 19:59:54 i thought they did, still a nice chip :) 20:00:23 are you sure they didn't fabricate it, maybe not designed but at least made a load of them 20:01:11 umm nope apparently not 20:01:38 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-40-47.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 20:02:17 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 20:02:44 anyone have any tips for writing FSMs in common lisp? 20:03:26 flying spaghetti monster? 20:03:59 free speech movements? 20:05:11 DeusExPikachu: Yes, use PROG. 20:05:12 finite state machines 20:06:06 No tool kits, packages or anything I guess? 20:06:07 DeusExPikachu: You can also search through comp.lang.lisp for some macro sugars. 20:06:16 k 20:06:17 Tool kit? 20:06:33 macro sugar is probably a better word 20:06:36 -!- michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:06:40 You can also look at the "Perl before Swine" presentation by the plt guys 20:06:42 happycodemonkey [n=raskolni@147.226.165.127] has joined #lisp 20:07:00 michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #lisp 20:08:06 Very nice presentation about the expression power that macro give you. It's not directly applicable to CL because it of different macro system, and no guarantee on tail call optimization 20:08:15 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:08:33 Most implementation support optimizing tail recursion, I do not know how it looks for general tail call elimination 20:09:02 tcr: but for an FSM, converting to tagbody/go isn't that bad. 20:09:22 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.253.180] has joined #lisp 20:10:04 Sure, PROG makes it very nice. 20:10:30 If it's a big FSM, perhaps from some paper, the extra sugar may be worth 20:10:39 i mean, in the macro. 20:12:03 Ah, yeah, but the implementation is not as straightforward if you want defgeneric<->defmethod-like definition (not every defining form wrapped in some upper sexp) 20:13:23 okaygo [n=scott@unaffiliated/okaygo] has joined #lisp 20:13:40 dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 20:13:45 Can someone help me with a function? 20:14:07 okaygo: someone can. Who? 20:14:15 What would be the best way to write a recursive function that repeats each element in a list n times. 20:14:25 Using a lambda function? 20:14:39 using loop. 20:14:51 okaygo: by calling the function on a list repeating n-1 times the element, then prepending one element more. 20:15:08 Yeah you're constraints about a recursive function makes it look like it's homework 20:15:17 s/you're/your/ 20:15:35 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-11650.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:15:48 It is. But I was wondering, typically speaking, should I use an anonymous function, or just write a helper function. Or is there a better way. 20:15:50 just skimmed over the PLT presentation, now I wish I had that code in CL 20:16:07 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:16:16 DeusExPikachu: Look in comp.lang.lisp 20:16:19 okaygo: well, if you insist on it, you could use the Y-combinator, yes. 20:16:37 okaygo: but a normal lisp function will do. We're not limited to lambda-calculus. 20:17:00 I kinda like lisp compared to other functional languages. 20:17:04 I might try Clojure. 20:17:17 happycod1monkey [n=raskolni@147.226.160.50] has joined #lisp 20:17:27 Uh, well, Common Lisp is hardly a functional programming language 20:17:43 well, it still falls under the category. 20:17:54 Anyways, can't talk, homeworks due. ;] 20:17:54 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 20:17:55 s/hardly a/a hardly/ 20:18:08 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 20:18:52 dcrawford: You mean it's a language which does hardly function? 20:19:00 :) 20:19:58 -!- happycod1monkey [n=raskolni@147.226.160.50] has quit [Client Quit] 20:19:58 DeusExPikachu: (defgeneric state-transition (state)) (defun run-fsm (state) (loop (multiple-value-bind (next-state continuep) (state-transition state) (if continuep (setf state next-state) (return next-state))) 20:21:17 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1C8A4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:21:39 segv [n=mb@p4FC1B271.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:24 elias` [n=c@host86-159-170-69.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:27 -!- postamar [n=postamar@69-196-138-13.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [] 20:23:30 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-205-48.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:55 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:27:08 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:27:35 tcr, Swine before Perl 20:28:29 they allude to python being the swine, and scheme (mzscheme) being the perl 20:28:46 -!- happycodemonkey [n=raskolni@147.226.165.127] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:29:47 perl? not pearl? 20:29:55 stassats`: it's a pun 20:30:21 Always make me think of s1m0ne... 20:30:35 pjb: same reaction here 20:30:36 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-3387.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 20:30:39 froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 20:32:13 asksol [n=ask@062249179105.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 20:33:24 Riastrad1 [n=rias@pool-141-154-208-150.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:00 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:35 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [] 20:37:36 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@pD9E6DA0C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:57 -!- ejs0 [n=eugen@253-213-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:38:34 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:50 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:39:13 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-205-48.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:39:57 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:40:59 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:26 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:46 DeusExPikachu: You might be interested in writing a CL version of Ragel :) 20:42:03 looking it up 20:42:18 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.125.180] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:42:28 one of optimization options still cracks me up :D 20:42:31 "N-Way Split really fast goto-driven FSM" 20:42:48 Patzy_ [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:14 well loop has tagbody/go inside :P 20:43:22 -!- Patzy_ [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:43:22 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:43:51 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:20 Silliness: Cars with nitrous oxide whatevers usually have an "NOS" sticker on them. The same design "NOS" logo appears on a brand of energy drink. Said energy drink does not include nitrous oxide. There are, however, beverages which -do- include nitrous oxide, but they don't have the "NOS" logo on the bottle. 20:47:09 heh. I'd like a car with O3. Assuming it wouldn't blow up 20:50:31 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-69-254.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:50:54 I can't seem to find this in the hyperspec... how do I get just the name of a function? (I have a list of compiled function objects, and I want to print just their names) 20:51:56 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 20:52:12 clhs function-lambda-expression 20:52:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fn_lam.htm 20:52:29 Read the specification carefully though 20:53:07 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 20:54:25 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6E9F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:54:48 ah, I didn't come across function-lambda-expression, thanks 20:56:00 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:56:16 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:34 -!- phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 20:56:49 except that you can't call that on a compiled function :( 20:58:22 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:59:16 when I inspect the compiled function, it has its name bound to what I want to print, but I don't know what method to call to get at the name... 20:59:38 isn't function-lambda-expression working for you? 21:01:31 no... it says that my compiled function isn't of type function 21:02:00 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-10-242.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:02:09 what implementation? how do you use it? 21:02:12 lisppaste: url? 21:02:12 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 21:02:24 I'm using CCL 21:02:43 Nevermind, this is for a one-off thing, and there are only 20 or so. I'll just extract them by hand 21:02:47 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:05 well, it should work in CCL 21:03:19 perhaps, you are just using it wrong 21:03:34 and 20 is too many to do by hand 21:03:51 basically I'm looping through some classes, collecting one of their slot values (which is bound to a function), and then I want to print all the collected functions 21:04:16 well, paste your code 21:04:25 I can't--its copywrited 21:04:32 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C031.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:45 I'm basically doing 21:04:49 well, I'll paste what I can 21:04:51 -!- mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:04:51 not all code, just a part 21:06:29 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:25 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a67184@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c636764e38aff264] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:07:30 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:07:39 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:08:26 willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 21:09:30 bfein pasted "function name" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81894 21:10:57 bfein annotated #81894 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81894#1 21:11:19 right, it's a list 21:12:22 what is? The compiled function object? Its not... calling any listy functions on it result in 21:12:42 value # is not of the expected type LIST. 21:13:08 anyway, I've wasted way too much time on this, I'm just going to extract by hand :) 21:13:14 and that's a function 21:13:24 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:13:49 aha 21:14:02 good call after all--I forgot some of them are lists with what the function is called with 21:14:05 thanks :) 21:14:35 and there is NTH-VALUE for extracting nth value 21:15:44 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.210.64] has joined #lisp 21:16:31 I know--I had forgotten the slot could store either a function or a list with the function and some of the arguments it is called with 21:16:38 thanks for the help 21:16:49 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-211.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:18:27 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-227.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 21:20:12 milanj [n=milan@91.150.101.6] has joined #lisp 21:22:02 slyrus: re. directory -- unless i'm terribly mistaken, sbcl has been doing it that way for quite a while 21:22:31 slyrus: oh, wait 21:22:38 it's different in 1.0.23 21:22:57 hm 21:23:01 yeah 21:23:11 hm 21:23:23 it's even different in 1.0.28.51 21:24:13 damned patterns 21:24:31 we didn't really have proper regression tests for them 21:24:51 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:27:08 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:27:23 -!- milanj- [n=milan@91.150.101.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:32:32 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6BCB2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:43 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.150.101.6] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:36:58 geekles [n=user@CPE-65-27-74-112.new.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:09 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-211.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 21:41:44 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:42:09 fiveop__ [n=fiveop@pD9E6CBE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:56 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-211.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:44:09 slyson [n=joe@92-234-146-79.cable.ubr19.live.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:44:41 -!- geekles [n=user@CPE-65-27-74-112.new.res.rr.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:47:42 gn everyone 21:47:58 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 21:48:58 slyrus_: i have a fix coming up 21:49:16 thanks nikodemus 21:49:26 benny99 [n=benny@p5486DC91.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:36 presumably "x.*" should also match "x/" and "*x.*" "yx/" 21:49:47 -!- fiveop_ [n=fiveop@pD9E6DA0C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 21:50:35 mcclim could use map-directory, though -- it's not exported yet, but i'm prefectly willing to export it 21:51:16 it's not like DIRECTORY is that portable either... 21:52:57 keithr [n=user@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:19 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6BCB2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:54:19 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 21:59:53 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:00:03 nikodemus: how hard would it be to mess with large array allocation to align data on cache lines (say 64 or 128 bytes), but misalign them modulo 4K to help avoid aliasing issues? 22:01:27 -!- nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving the office."] 22:03:24 the current situation is somewhat undesirable: data is consistenly misaligned re cache lines, but identical indices on two large vectors will consistently fall in the same bucket on most L1s. 22:04:15 -!- Blkt [n=Blkt@net-93-146-152-69.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit ["(cons 'java 'sucks)"] 22:05:29 pkhuong: large as in page.large_object = 1? 22:05:39 right. 22:06:05 that's the case where aliasing hurts, and I figure the space wastage wouldn't be too bad. 22:06:12 getting cache alignment should not be too hard 22:06:16 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 22:06:33 how exactly should the misalignment be done? 22:06:52 just somewhere not on page boundary? 22:06:54 Add a variable offset * cache line size (ish). 22:07:37 langzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@p5B17F1BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:42 would consistent line-size misalignment from page start work? 22:08:09 it'd help with alignment of indices to cache lines, but not with aliasing. 22:08:39 for aliasing it needs to be randomish, right? 22:08:49 Right. 22:09:29 i think it should not be too hard 22:09:48 Or just not too consistent. Even if we only increment a counter for each large allocation, the pattern is easy enough to control if one really cares. 22:10:16 And it's never worse than the current situation. 22:10:41 right. how much variability would be enough? 22:11:06 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:11:13 if the variable offset is 0-N, what would be a good value for N? 4? 16? 22:12:37 How many vectors do you expect code to use in a single pass? ;) I really don't know. ISTR *some* memory allocator using [0, 8)*128, for a nice round overhead of at most 1K. 22:13:43 well, that could probably be a tuning parameter 22:14:11 slyrus_: in 1.0.29.10 22:14:46 I've got an xemacs/slime display problem that's been really bugging me 22:14:54 I upgraded both slime and xemacs, and it's still there 22:15:12 -!- asksol [n=ask@062249179105.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 22:15:20 Phoodus: slime is mostly targetted to emacs. 22:15:24 When the repl buffer should scroll down to follow the bottom of the printed text, sometimes the cursor just jumps to the middle of the buffer and stays there 22:16:06 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:16:36 pkhuong: how's the sse2 stuff? 22:17:41 works, ready for a commit I think. I'd like some additional eyeballing though. 22:18:19 Also, it includes some algorithmic changes which should probably be discussed. 22:19:33 pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 22:19:50 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-41-55.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:19:54 amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@charanda.shochu.sandino.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:56 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-10-242.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:20:21 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:21:04 pkhuong: do you follow cmucl-commits? 22:21:18 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.253.180] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:21:22 i just noticed rtoy has also been working on sse2 stuff there 22:21:34 nope. I only stumbled on rtoy's stuff by accident. 22:21:44 right 22:21:58 and the VOPs probably port almost verbatim 22:22:24 ok, bedtime -- talk to you more tomorrow 22:22:28 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:22:29 good night 22:23:29 -!- teilzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@p5B17C728.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 22:24:07 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:24:14 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@72.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:25:00 asksol [n=ask@062249179105.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 22:28:54 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:31:56 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:32:32 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:34:50 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 22:34:54 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-40-47.ucr.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:37:47 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 22:39:47 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-3387.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:42:59 p0a [n=emacs@athedsl-383911.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:43:48 Hello does anyone have a copy of PAIP to help me? http://paste.lisp.org/display/81899 in page 184 22:44:43 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit ["leaving"] 22:45:04 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 22:45:13 'pred is not bound to anything. It is not listed in the errata. http://norvig.com/paip-errata.html 22:45:30 p0a: typo in the second binding of LET* 22:45:53 fe[nl]ix: you're right! ;-) 22:46:14 thanks... I couldn't find it myself! 22:47:00 -!- p0a [n=emacs@athedsl-383911.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 22:47:36 git's interactive rebase is awesome. 22:49:33 this a much more effective anti-piracy film than we have now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xfqkdh5Js4 22:50:20 -!- benny99 [n=benny@p5486DC91.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:50:21 -!- asksol [n=ask@062249179105.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:51:11 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:51:12 pkhuong: yepp 22:53:30 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:01:48 cp2: best drm ever. 23:02:30 merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:23 attention cpu architecture lovers, rumour has it that Rock is dead. 23:03:48 pkhuong: together with Sparc, I guess? 23:04:32 SPARC actually is open, and I believe Fujitsu's business there is as important as SUN's. 23:09:33 pkhuong: yes, fortunately SPARC is open, and there's investment in space market for it as well 23:09:39 ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 23:09:54 -!- Riastrad1 is now known as Riastradh 23:10:03 -!- rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-710d1ad15f3302be] has quit [] 23:10:07 but main manufacturer of Sparc systems was Sun 23:11:24 man. Couchdb is awesome. 23:11:32 p0a [n=emacs@athedsl-383911.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:11:43 and clouchdb has a pretty great API. Best of the three lisp libraries I've tried. 23:11:54 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:12:20 Hello, how different is it to do (get 'foo 'bar) from (let ((foo (make-hash-table))) (gethash 'bar foo)) 23:12:38 The first might return something other than NIL, p0a... 23:13:01 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:08 Riastradh: is GET something like getenv(2)? 23:13:15 clhs get 23:13:15 p0a: the former will grow slower as more properties are added and uses a global resource, while the latter is properly scoped and will scale better as more entries are used. 23:13:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get.htm 23:13:38 sykopomp: what are you using cdb for 23:13:51 pkhuong: fair enough, thanks 23:13:54 No, p0a. Associated with each symbol is a collection of properties, which are associations of another symbol to some value. (GET ) returns the value for the property of . 23:14:21 xristos: writing my own persistent object store right now, actually. 23:14:22 xristos: I dare hope that cdb still means cdb (as in djb's design) in that domain. 23:14:32 pkhuong: couchdb 23:15:46 xristos: with the end goal of using said persistent store for a MUD. 23:17:03 tvaal [n=tvaal@unaffiliated/tvaal] has joined #lisp 23:17:37 Riastradh: Well, getenv returns the value of some variable in the environment. You could say each symbol is an environment and that its properties are the variables in it 23:17:42 :-P 23:19:16 sykopomp: the mud you were working on before ? 23:19:23 p0a, yes, you could treat it like that, except that the keys in a symbol's property list are more general than the key's in the POSIX process environment. 23:20:01 xristos: I sort of stopped working on it for several months, started doing other projects. 23:20:16 in the process, the prototype-based library I was working on (for that mud) started to mature. 23:20:50 this is a slightly weird question but is there a preferred license with lispers, I see BSD quite a bit, but I'm thinking of using Berkeley db in a project and it seems to be effectively GPL 23:20:52 and I was reading about couchdb, and figured it would be a pretty good mapping to just make the objects persist to couchdb, so I copied a lot of CLOS MOP stuff over and used that :) 23:21:31 Guthur: which is part of the reason some people here are keenly interested in tokyo cabinet. 23:22:01 sykopomp: cool i'll take a look 23:22:25 i pulled some new branches into the old sykosomatic code i had 23:22:27 xristos: I'm just getting started with the object store, so it's not useful yet :) 23:23:12 I don't even know what's up with all those branches. I'm planning on just making a new one and tearing everything apart. There's a lot of crud that accumulated. Understandably, I guess? It was my first lisp project. 23:23:22 pkhuong actually i had that on a note from last night to remind me to look into it, but I kind of forgot :|, thought CLisp build BDB interface was probably part of the reason 23:23:23 so basically you are dropping cl-store, and bknr.datastore 23:23:28 yup 23:23:47 pkhuong sorry meant to say thanks for reminding me as well :) 23:23:48 the datastore was awesome for prototyping, actually. I wish I could've just used that. Then again, coding this has been fun too :) 23:24:00 *sykopomp* still recommends the bknr datastore to everyone. 23:24:11 i haven't used it 23:24:16 anyways, gotta head to the mall for a while. o7 23:25:34 http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/files.html 23:26:05 Under "Testing whether a file exists", there's a mistake, (probe-file "foo") is shown to evaluate to #p"/etc/passwd" 23:26:54 What's wrong with returning #P"/etc/passwd", p0a? 23:28:25 p0a: maybe you missed the `ln` at the top. 23:28:44 correct, thanks 23:31:51 sykopomp: i agree 23:32:05 milanj [n=milan@91.150.101.6] has joined #lisp 23:37:27 -!- merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:38:10 Moe111 [n=memet@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:27 Does list->string exist in SBCL? 23:39:37 (list->string '(a b c)) ; throws an error. 23:40:30 Moe111: there are prin1-to-string and princ-to-string 23:40:39 If you are referring to the Scheme procedure by that name, then you can use (COERCE ) instead of (LIST->STRING ). 23:40:49 ...sorry, (COERCE 'STRING). 23:40:50 gotcha, thanks! 23:41:05 (PRIN1-TO-STRING and PRINC-TO-STRING are very different.) 23:41:35 Note that must be a list of characters in order either for (LIST->STRING ) to make sense in Scheme or for (COERCE 'STRING) to make sense in Common Lisp. 23:42:33 great. that works. thanks 23:42:34 -!- Moe111 [n=memet@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:43:17 fawxtin [n=user@200-138-201-32.fnsce704.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:43:53 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.150.101.6] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:44:15 -!- dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:45:51 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:46:15 pkhuong: is your sse work available from git somewhere? 23:49:33 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C031.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:50:16 is there a lisp interface for tokyo cabinet 23:50:44 somebody around here had something preliminary. I can't recall who. 23:51:39 -!- p0a [n=emacs@athedsl-383911.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 23:54:05 fade, i think that might have been conversation from last night, can't remember who it was either, i suppose i could just go with berkeley for the time being, I only need a simple database so migration shouldn't be difficult 23:54:18 hefner: it's on repo, but there are bugs 23:54:32 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:10 -!- udzinari [n=udzinari@94-43-70-11.dsl.utg.ge] has left #lisp 23:57:04 for the complexes. Eyeballing appreciated if you have the time (: 23:58:28 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-41-55.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection]