00:00:45 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-3-195.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 00:02:46 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:10:43 feret_ya [i=d01415be@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e26868c92205c9d2] has joined #lisp 00:11:02 hello 00:11:17 how does one write lisp programs to utilize multiple cpus? 00:11:22 say 8 core box? 00:11:45 using threads 00:12:35 <_3b> or run 8 lisps 00:12:56 *stassats* has a little deja vu 00:12:59 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 00:13:34 <_3b> minion: bordeaux-threads 00:13:34 bordeaux-threads: Portable shared-state concurrency for Common Lisp Bordeaux-Threads is a library to write multi-threaded applications in a portable way. http://www.cliki.net/bordeaux-threads 00:13:45 what about this event driven thing tcl people go on about 00:13:52 does lisp do anything like that 00:14:21 feret_ya: are you gavino, by any chance? 00:15:14 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:17 -!- feret_ya is now known as gavino 00:15:34 Im having a great year, not causing trouble, less drinking and typing 00:15:46 congratulations 00:17:24 so how does one learn to program with threads? 00:17:51 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:15 damn learning lisp is so hard for me :( 00:18:45 been trying for weeks, i feel like by the second or third chapter of each book i try, I can't do any of the non-trivial example problems 00:19:08 anyone else run into such frustrations? 00:19:17 wrong books? 00:19:18 It's like this stuff just isn't sticking 00:19:31 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:19:36 minion: tell justin` about gentle 00:19:37 justin`: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 00:19:51 tried all the best, ansi Common lisp, pratical common lisp, elements of AI w/common lisp 00:19:56 k thanks 00:20:18 what is your background? 00:20:28 i mean, do you know other languages? 00:21:08 first year CS student, decent with java/python 00:21:33 I was just starting to get really comfortable with java when I switched 00:22:29 I feel like I'm understanding things when I read them, but when I sit down and try to code something I just draw blanks 00:23:06 sorry i asked this the other day but forgot the command, how do i restart slime and remove all the symbolic definitions i have made 00:23:19 ,restart 00:23:20 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:24:06 ah the , was the key, thanks again stassats 00:24:53 justin`: then probably PCL is right for you... just try writing something practical that doesn't need any FFI (or even better, something that doesn't need any external libraries) to get some footing 00:26:01 justin`: Were you skipping examples when reading PCL? 00:26:12 no I was doing them all 00:26:57 gentle introduction is really gentle, so if it can't help, nothing can 00:27:53 yeah I'll try that. I wasn't really liking the order PCL was explaining things, and how it would frequently mention things briefly then saying "we'll cover this fully later" 00:28:19 still 00:28:35 mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-076-182-103-085.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:28:35 still, you'd better read PCL after gentle 00:28:54 yeah 00:29:47 it takes a while before the fiddling with parens and what-comes-next-again? etc. goes away 00:30:16 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:30:23 does lisp handle file and directory manipulation easily? 00:30:23 ..keep the hyperspec close; create a shortcut key so you can look stuff up in it instantly 00:30:44 hyperspec is h u g e 00:30:48 Yeah, PCL puts some stuff off, but mainly because you can do so much 00:30:56 "the inclusion of non-euclidean technology in car engines made the repair liable to damage your sanity worse than the engine." <--- I suspect that's kinda like Lisp... 00:31:30 "non-euclidean technology" what's that? 00:31:32 gavino, directory handling in lisp is kinda poor .. file i/o is fine imho 00:31:33 brothers [n=brothers@66-234-33-22.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:03 gavino, cl-fad makes simple directory stuff a bit more easy to handle 00:32:16 cl-fad.. 00:32:20 lnostdal: note who are you talking to 00:32:33 hehe, yeah, stassats 00:33:27 I just ooked it up 00:33:49 p_l: that one word combination is trying my sanity 00:34:40 I had an interesting file and dir removal problem at work 00:34:45 are to be bored by it? 00:34:47 care? 00:34:56 stassats: think of Cthulhu-verse :D 00:37:10 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit ["[BX] Oral sex makes your day"] 00:41:18 hypno++ 00:42:12 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslhd138.osnanet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 00:43:21 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:26 *rtoym* wonders if Unicode collation is worth doing. It would help if he understood how it works. 00:46:38 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:49:47 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:51:39 rtoym: unicode collation is basically a locale-specific ordering of strings 00:51:54 -!- qbg [n=qbg@65-73-86-56.dsl1.mnd.mn.frontiernet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:52:08 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:35 Yes, but there's a default collation algorithm. CMUCL doesn't support locales. 00:54:12 -!- gavino [i=d01415be@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e26868c92205c9d2] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 00:56:44 -!- brothers [n=brothers@66-234-33-22.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [] 00:57:46 how do I make a directory in lisp as if by a call to "mkdir" from the shell? 00:57:58 clhs ensure-directories-exist 00:57:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ensu_1.htm 00:58:10 (that's like mkdir -p) 00:58:14 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:00:08 -!- justin` [n=justin@ip24-250-39-58.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:01:06 rtoym: it's described at http://www.unicode.org/unicode/reports/tr10/ 01:02:47 -!- merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:02:49 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:03:13 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 01:03:55 rtoym: as far as I understand it, collation is by definition locale-specific 01:04:25 if a unicode impl. doesn't do collation, it can only resort to char-by-char code-point-based ordering 01:04:45 i just thought about something wrt. using processes for concurrency instead of threads .. using processes means concurrent GCing .. i do lot of stuff with weak hash-tables, so maybe that'd be a good thing .. 01:06:32 kpreid: thanks 01:07:04 <_3b> lnostdal: probably depends on how much the processes need to have the same data 01:07:31 yeah 01:09:27 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:40 Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:12:49 are there any good IDE for lisp? 01:12:54 which one is good 01:12:56 slime 01:13:00 i am trying eclipse 01:13:01 http://paste.lisp.org/display/81679#5 .. translator and validator (i guess this is Control stuff; it doesn't seem to "fit" in either the Model or View end) and the connections between Model --> View (dataflow) is all handled by or stored in weak hash-tables .. sub-classing Models to add slots and stuff to them just feels wrong .. .. i babble; less coffee :P 01:13:02 but it sucks 01:13:15 minion: tell Bigshot_ about slime 01:13:16 Bigshot_: look at slime: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/slime 01:13:38 stassats: i don't know how to use emacs 01:13:46 learn 01:13:55 any simpler? 01:14:02 to get things done :-) 01:14:15 like eclipse? 01:14:35 emacs is the simplest 01:14:37 Bigshot_: if you're on a Mac, you can try ccl's Cocoa-based IDE. 01:14:38 i will learn it in my spare time right now is production time ;-) 01:14:52 vista 01:15:19 production? then lispworks ide, or allegro ide 01:15:43 anything like eclipse stassats ? 01:16:04 you said eclipse sucks 01:16:16 you can check if eclipse has any lisp related modules but I doubt it's as good as emacs+slime can be 01:16:35 how many commands do i have to learn to run slime? 01:16:35 eclipse has CUSP 01:16:40 one 01:17:01 i don't want that :q and :w etc 01:17:35 no one offered you vi 01:17:48 just one command? which one? 01:17:56 M-x slime 01:17:57 Bigshot_: that is no vi. M-x and ',' plus tab completion will be enough 01:18:36 saikat [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 01:20:34 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@23.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 01:23:29 how is jabberwocky? 01:24:14 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:33 jabberwocky is not maintained, and i don't think anyone uses it 01:25:34 ..i might be wrong .. but i think the majority by far uses emacs+slime anyway 01:25:44 lispIDE? 01:29:45 anyways, i'll settle with lispide for now hehe 01:32:20 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:33:43 nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:56 *nyef* looks around. 01:34:04 Is it quieter in here than it was when I left? 01:34:18 yeah 01:34:27 Bigshot_ found a IDE :) 01:34:39 hahaha 01:34:57 but it doesn't have code compeletion :( 01:35:32 you'd already learn emacs and hack code, while you are trying to find another IDE 01:35:34 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@38.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:36:15 but there's no executable of slime for vista i'll have to read the whole installation procedure :| 01:36:39 reading is a terrible thing, yes 01:36:41 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-123.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:37:14 hehe i'll try slime now 01:37:31 ... executable of slime... I think I'll go back to reading about non-euclidean eldritch abominations mixed with depressing universe of Evangelion 01:38:25 -!- The-Kenn1 [n=moritz@p5087A4D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:38:27 nice philospher 01:38:28 p_l: You had me right up until Evangelion. 01:38:53 p_l: you stole minion's dictionary? 01:39:33 p_l: No, minion almost invariably comes up with at least one word that I don't know. I know all those words, I just don't like Evangelion. 01:40:08 Err... 01:40:13 stassats, not p_l. 01:40:30 Hrm. 01:40:59 Okay, I have an amd64 multilib gentoo, and I want to install some stuff that's only keyworded for x86 and ppc. 01:41:01 nyef: for this one, liking isn't necessary. It's a crossover that reworks NGE a lot, though I wonder if it will be similar to Shinji&WH40K (which keeps closer to original setting but reworks it a lot) 01:41:14 Ah, okay. 01:41:33 stassats: are you using slime? 01:41:36 nyef: for one, it happens in London-2 :D 01:41:45 Bigshot_: yep 01:42:06 on windows? do i need to install cvs on windows to get slime? 01:42:17 sorry man gotta ask silly questions 01:42:24 you can get a snapshot 01:42:25 Bigshot_: what edition of vista do you have? 01:42:31 I liked EPU's NXE, actually. Mostly happens in western Massachusetts. 01:42:32 32 bit home premium 01:42:42 http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/snapshots/slime-current.tgz 01:44:07 nyef: which packages ? 01:44:26 fe[nl]ix: games-emulation/pcsx and its dependencies. 01:44:53 nyef: you can add them to /etc/portage/package.keywords 01:44:59 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ca92131ec4e6c498] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:45:04 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-123.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:14 Bigshot_: get cvs, darcs, git etc. and install clbuild... I think I might have to write down a howto for that, except that I have working symlinks on my windows machine ^^; 01:45:37 <_3b> does clbuild work on the newer windows? 01:46:02 p_l: wouldn't it be easier to install some Linux? 01:46:06 Yeah, I just did an ACCEPT_KEYWORDS=x86 emerge -a ..., but it blew up on the last package with some header mismatches, so I figured to try with something that would actually use -m32 in CLFAGS. 01:47:28 stassats: I happen to have posix-compatible windows installed. It's kinda unsettling to have "file `which sh`" work and return "64bit PE executable" ;D 01:48:43 what people can do just to not use linux... 01:48:49 brothers [n=brothers@66-234-33-22.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:17 *hefner* wouldn't wish linux on anyone 01:49:25 stassats: I'm running it on router 01:50:06 Hrm... I wonder if this 32-bit chroot thing would work? 01:50:28 Since I have a 32-bit userland filesystem just -lying around-... 01:50:40 hefner: right, windows is a better curse 01:50:54 stassats: and when you get around the fact that certain stuff is *supposed* to be torn down by "format C:" (which, in retrospect, was logical thing to do) and that mucking with settings without knowing anything, even RTFM, is a bad idea... windows isn't so bad 01:51:23 stassats: I'm beginning to think that is true. 01:52:54 stassats: some of the stuff done in "modern, userfriendly" distributions makes me cry 01:53:31 Especially since I remember Mandrake having reached similar level of userfriendliness years ago without introducing such crazy shit 01:54:19 stassats: i installed xemacs and downloaded slime snapshot now what? 01:54:34 xemacs was a bad choice 01:54:42 damn 01:55:00 Bigshot_: try Emacs-W32 build, it should come up on google... 01:55:39 Bigshot_: what lisp are you using? 01:56:03 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@70.237.122.129] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:56:03 clisp 01:56:49 should i donwload patched or unpatched? 01:56:55 patched, IMHO 01:57:17 Hrm... default-linux/x86/2006.1 doesn't sound like a recent profile... 01:58:09 nyef: if you kept rebuilding world at least once every few weeks, it won't matter 01:58:29 I don't even rebuild world every few -months-. 01:58:39 p_l: that would be madness 01:58:48 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-220-231-222.bhm.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 01:58:50 And besides, this is a copy of my old colinux filesystem. 01:59:23 fe[nl]ix: I had experience that showed this to be the only way to keep a rolling distro stable 02:00:17 at least usually. flameeyes(a gentoo dev) has a tinderbox where he continuously rebuilds the world over and over(with gcc snapshots, experimental linkers, etc...) 02:01:19 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2F987.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:02:14 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:02:18 p_l: an odd experience you have there 02:02:30 -!- brothers [n=brothers@66-234-33-22.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [] 02:02:36 p_l: i downloaded emacsw32 now what do i do with the slime snapshot? 02:03:04 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:24 fe[nl]ix: I had dialup. at some point it stopped being fun to go through the hoops of hand-editing ebuilds to make stuff click whenever I wanted to update/install some new package 02:03:26 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:04:35 Bigshot_: unpack the slime snapshot and edit .emacs so that it will load (to open .emacs: C-x C-f ~/.emacs) 02:06:27 Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:59 tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:07:51 "dDepgraph creation failed." 02:08:01 file: C:\Users\Big shot\Desktop/ <--- i get like this when i type ctrl-x ctrl-f 02:08:13 forward slash 02:08:32 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:38 delete everything and just type ~/.emacs 02:09:05 if that doesn't show you your .emacs, then we will start looking :D 02:09:07 is deleting everything necessary? 02:09:51 stassats: might be. I don't know how Emacs-W32 handles pathnames, haven't used it in long time, and even then, without such problems 02:10:31 i opens up "new file" 02:11:07 it 02:12:18 ok i found emacs file 02:12:27 in EmacsW32 folder 02:12:59 damn it's not .emacs just emacs 02:13:47 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:13:54 p_l: you there man? 02:14:32 Bigshot_: .emacs doesn't exist by default with a new install. 02:14:50 where should i put .emacs? 02:15:28 <_3b> ~/.emacs should work 02:15:40 Wherever emacs puts it when you tell it to open ~/.emacs unless you're planning something clever. 02:16:09 nyef: Emacs-W32 afaik included one 02:16:16 Really? 02:16:21 Hrm. 02:16:26 *nyef* wonders what he's running, then. 02:17:16 *_3b* usually uses the fsf win32 emacs binaries 02:17:18 -!- Odin-MAC [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 02:18:23 fe[nl]ix: I've looked at the technical report. There's a default collation scheme there which isn't locale dependent. I think. But, yes, to be really useful, it should be locale dependent. 02:18:43 rtoym: ping 02:18:50 ocnzhao [n=hgsghrnj@122.159.58.247] has joined #lisp 02:19:28 Bigshot_: now look over slime docs on how to load it in emacs, and subsitute paths for the place you unpacked SLIME to. And remember to use (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) instead of just (slime-setup) 02:19:39 pkhuong: Aloha! 02:20:10 p_l: it doesn't tell where .emacs file is in slime.pdf 02:20:40 rtoym: pong, rather, I suppose. I blame the latency on the train ;) 02:20:41 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:20:55 pkhuong: I was wondering if you took care of all the situations where packed complex singles could generate spurious signals. 02:21:07 Bigshot_: it will take me some time to download 27MBs of Emacs. It doesn't state that because it depends on your Emacs 02:21:34 wow p_l you are really helpful person ;-) 02:21:42 <_3b> Bigshot_: it is in ~/ which is a unix abbreviation for the user's home dir, we aren't sure what that translates to on the version of emacs/windows/etc you have, but opening ~/.emacs from emacs should work 02:21:55 pkhuong: (On a side note, I looked at the code for complex/single. I vaguely remember making for copies of the single float because I think I had the same issue with spurious signals that you have.) 02:22:06 Er, 4, not for. 02:22:12 I believe so. My invariant that unused slots are nulled out helps reduce the number of cases. 02:22:14 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:37 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:22:53 Bigshot_: Well, I kinda need it for my CCL anyway, and I was putting off installation for some time. Except that mine install might be "slightly" crazier 02:23:19 Ah, ok. I didn't take care of that. Probably because I was only planning on complex doubles, but then singles were so easy to add. 02:23:29 e.g. not clearing the top half after a division might result in something weird like Inf * 0, or Inf - Inf. 02:23:53 anyways, p_l i'll be back later thanks for your efforts 02:23:53 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:23:57 -!- Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 02:24:15 always using full register moves (as opposed to reg-reg movs[sd]) also helps, in addition to improving perf. 02:25:58 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 02:27:58 I think I do full moves, but I'll have to check. Definitely needs improvement. I guess I never noticed these because I rarely ever do single floats. 02:28:01 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:08 *p_l* wonders if he should install emacs as root... 02:28:12 -!- birdzbite [n=user@74.196.9.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:28:47 I only noticed these things because I wrote a rather large test case (takes ~10 seconds to compile). 02:31:01 *nyef* ponders blowing out all the system bits on the filesystem he's trying to use as a chroot and doing a clean install. 02:33:42 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:34:14 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:29 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 02:34:46 rtoym: you could get bugs involving double floats and complex double floats if you kept the movsd around. 02:35:48 nyef: sometimes it's really the best option :D 02:36:36 Yeah, it's just that getting a new system properly settled in is always such a pain. 02:37:31 pkhuong: Yes, you're right. I do have some movsd's around. And the loads from memory don't clear out the high part. 02:37:35 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-220-231-222.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:56 nyef: maybe keeping some automated config maker around would help? 02:38:00 pkhuong: Can I try out the large test case? 02:38:28 Well, in this case, I suspect that I'm going to keep the config -files- around... 02:39:06 pkhuong pasted "Complex float test case" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81744 02:39:52 rtoym: loads do clear, it's only reg-reg movs[sd] that are an issue. 02:42:59 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:43:21 Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:25 Oh, right. I was looking at the wrong part of the description. 02:44:33 chpln [n=chpln@ppp121-45-68-208.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:51 pemryan [n=pemryan@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 02:48:47 -!- pemryan [n=pemryan@159.226.35.246] has quit [Client Quit] 02:49:07 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-220-231-222.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Going To Kill The Cat -- LOL No I'm Not Just Sleep"] 02:49:19 pemryan [n=pemryan@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 02:49:21 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-220-231-222.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:45 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-138-193-165.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 02:54:14 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 02:54:35 -!- pemryan [n=pemryan@159.226.35.246] has quit [Client Quit] 02:55:19 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:10 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:56:27 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:01 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 03:02:04 -!- pem is now known as pemryan 03:09:01 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 03:09:55 evening 03:10:05 *early* morning 03:10:10 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:11:49 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:12:22 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 03:12:41 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:12:46 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:13:25 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:20:30 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:21:00 -!- nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 03:24:53 -!- saikat [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 03:25:12 -!- ocnzhao [n=hgsghrnj@122.159.58.247] has left #lisp 03:32:42 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:34:43 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 03:40:42 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.138.145] has joined #lisp 03:42:23 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:42:31 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:46:45 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-220-231-222.bhm.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 03:49:42 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:58 -!- pemryan is now known as pem 03:55:28 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:13 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-4f1692856407f2a6] has quit [] 04:02:26 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:36 domiel [n=dnj@58.172.210.231] has joined #lisp 04:04:57 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-157-31.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 04:06:35 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:54 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:21:52 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:22:58 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:55 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:31:47 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@71.236.25.127] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:33:46 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:00 oh hey 04:34:04 clisp *does* have nicer debug stuff. 04:44:38 nicer than? 04:45:22 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.133.76] has joined #lisp 04:48:25 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:50:08 sbcl 04:50:17 at least, more resumes. 04:50:27 Ralith: how is it with stepping? 04:50:54 *Ralith* shrugs 04:51:02 I'm just learning 04:51:58 johncl [n=memet@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:33 how would "eval" a string "(1 2 3)" into (1 2 3) ? 04:52:42 how would I "eval" a string "(1 2 3)" into (1 2 3) ? 04:52:45 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-144.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:53:09 you READ a string into a form. 04:53:18 clhs read-from-string 04:53:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_fro.htm 04:53:45 danke schon! 04:53:56 -!- johncl [n=memet@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:54:00 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:55:08 danke schön 04:55:37 schon is a different word. :) 04:58:36 Ah, those Germans, they have a different word for _everything_! 05:02:07 I think it's still better than having free form syntax ;-) 05:04:05 anyone here want to give iterate->loop translation a shot? 05:04:15 hell yeah, I loves some loop 05:04:18 trying to clean up dependencies on a lib 05:04:24 and I hate dependencies ;) 05:04:29 jmbr__ [n=jmbr@119.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 05:05:13 sykopomp pasted "translation pls" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81749 05:05:25 it's from cl-couch, btw 05:05:42 how can I test it? 05:05:48 hell if I know 05:05:50 heh 05:05:56 hehe 05:06:03 no guarantee me translation will work, then/ 05:06:52 sykopomp annotated #81749 "entire defdoc" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81749#1 05:06:56 <_3b> using d-s-b with &key makes it a bit uglier 05:06:58 there's the whole thing 05:07:03 yeah, that's what got me 05:07:07 iterate actually looks really good 05:07:08 *hefner* eyes alexandria:shuffle suspiciously. it seems to have a real fondness for putting music from kings quest 5 at the top of my queue.. 05:07:15 I'd just rather not have it in something that low-level 05:08:11 <_3b> for (k . keys) = pseudo-slot for validator = (getf keys :validator) ... maybe? 05:08:27 *sykopomp* has no idea 05:08:37 I don't even know loop that well 05:08:37 <_3b> or just build the list by hand instead of using collect 05:11:16 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:12:50 -!- jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 05:13:26 divz [n=divz@117.98.136.52] has joined #lisp 05:14:21 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:18:15 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-9-231.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 05:18:40 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 05:19:12 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@23.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:19:23 *hefner* loses interest, wanders off :) 05:21:26 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 05:21:35 bah :P 05:23:56 rullie_ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:24:11 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-19-141.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:28:02 there, done. 05:28:04 feh 05:29:02 so... why do we use spawn instead of popen for communicating with external processes? seems like for :wait t, at least, popen would be a reasonable (and simpler) approach 05:33:42 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:38:27 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:50:04 pierre- [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:39 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:59:41 Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 06:00:03 saikat [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 06:00:24 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has joined #lisp 06:01:22 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:04:27 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:07:23 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-223.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:12:32 -!- KingNato [n=patno@84-217-6-4.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [] 06:13:36 hello I need help with xmlrpc authorization 06:20:18 *p_l* *FACEPALMS* 06:20:58 divz: what problems you exactly have, and are they really related to lisp? 06:23:19 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:25:29 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-9-231.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:27:23 so uh, if I'm defining methods on a generic function from a different package, and I want to write a setf method 06:27:28 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 06:27:35 is the syntax (defmethod (setf foopkg:method) ...)? 06:28:04 hello 06:28:43 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-9-231.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:31:06 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 06:31:39 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-9-231.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:32:30 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-9-231.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:33:03 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-111.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 06:33:26 Arbitrarily large integers are supported, right? 06:34:57 arbitrarily within reason, yes 06:35:16 so why not floats? 06:35:25 why not a pony? 06:35:37 Ralith: why not use rational? 06:35:46 p_l: good point. 06:36:57 -!- jmbr__ is now known as jmbr 06:38:15 CLISP implements such a thing. 06:39:14 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:23 hefner: it was more curiosity wrt: the reasoning behind the standard, not actually needing to use it. 06:40:25 splittist [n=dmurray@78-4.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:40:27 morning 06:40:46 Ralith: the standard was written by a bunch of crazy drunks. 06:40:49 also, cultists 06:41:02 and one pony. 06:41:06 only one? 06:41:12 yes. Only one. 06:41:25 I guess they were on a tight budget. 06:41:37 we hadn't invented affirmative action yet. 06:43:08 I hear the CLISP developers have an open offer of a cash bounty for the first person to find a useful application of their long-float type 06:43:37 hefner: how long is long? 06:46:08 this long | | 06:46:21 (on some scale) 06:46:35 http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes/num-concepts.html#float-comp 06:47:23 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 06:48:49 hm 06:48:54 longcat is long 06:49:09 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 06:53:37 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 06:53:40 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@119.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:55:26 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-30-209.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:55:57 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:57:26 mega1 [n=mega@pool-0106c.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:57:43 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 06:59:22 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 07:01:14 -!- rullie_ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 07:01:16 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-223.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:02:26 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-143-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:08:43 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 07:10:28 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:09 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:12:33 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 07:16:46 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:17:00 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:20:58 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 07:21:09 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.133.76] has quit [Success] 07:21:21 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 07:22:43 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.129.142] has joined #lisp 07:23:11 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:23:17 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:23:25 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:43 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 07:26:42 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:27:23 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-116-145.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:32:43 hey, I'm trying to get swank working with stumpwm; how do I set things up such that (require 'swank) works? I'm using sbcl and the file /usr/share/common-lisp/systems/swank.asd does exist, if that's relevant. 07:34:07 WhiteFlame [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:11 good morning 07:36:05 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.168.12] has joined #lisp 07:36:13 oh, dear. debian packages? 07:36:37 normally, you symlink it to wherever asdf looks for systems, like ~/.sbcl/systems 07:36:57 is it just me, or does LOOP occasionally change its mind about what it compiles to?... 07:37:01 if you're using debian stuff, god knows. the laws of physics cease to hold. 07:37:53 hefner: this isn't debian. Judging by my ability to build stumpwm at all, I think asdf is looking there; do I need to do something special to use asdf when requiring, or something? 07:37:57 forgive my naivete. 07:39:15 I don't know, my universe doesn't involve the directory /usr/share/common-lisp at all, and any one which does confuses and scares me a little. 07:39:41 unless, of course, require doesn't work at all, because you haven't required asdf first. 07:39:57 that would be a start. 07:40:02 that's the great thing about saying "it doesn't work", everyone gets to guess why :) 07:40:16 hefner: isn't that half the fun?... 07:40:23 well, I don't know what else you expect me to do. 07:40:34 how can I tell you I haven't done something I don't know to do? 07:41:11 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:41:13 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.138.145] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:41:15 irc_user [n=alan@pcd567174.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 07:41:15 after (require 'asdf), (require 'cl-ppcre) works when it didn't before, but (require 'swank) is still broken. 07:41:26 any other things I should be doing? 07:41:28 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 07:41:45 <_3b> that is a symlink, not the actual .asd right? 07:41:47 Ralith: what does it -say- 07:41:49 ? 07:41:49 correct. 07:41:55 Don't know how to REQUIRE SWANK. 07:41:58 sykopomp: clsql redefines cl:loop (in clisp, at least). Maybe that sort of thing is happening to you? 07:42:00 ah 07:42:14 Ralith: look at asdf:*central-registry* to see where it looks for system definitions 07:42:22 which is the same error it gives for cl-ppcre before I load asdf, so I assume that means it's not found. 07:42:23 pinterface: nah. I found the problem. I'd apparently forgotten to actually evaluate something else. 07:42:30 serves me right, for having complex loops, anyways. 07:43:11 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:43:48 hefner: hm, I'm not sure I can meaningfully decipher that, beyond that it *does* include the ~/.sbcl/systems/ path--but that doesn't exist, so clearly it's getting cl-ppcre from elsewhere. Want a paste? 07:44:10 sure, why not. 07:44:15 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:44:28 http://paste.lisp.org/display/81755 07:45:11 hm 07:45:16 what is this?... 07:45:26 the value of asdf:*central-registry* 07:45:47 intrsting 07:46:00 my advice is to create ~/.sbcl/systems, and begin a lifelong habit of symlinking system definitions there 07:46:24 hefner: that doesn't really solve the problem, or explain why cl-ppcre can be found. 07:46:36 ...wait 07:46:42 /usr/lib/sbcl/site-systems/cl-ppcre.asd exists. 07:46:45 that is probably why. 07:46:51 probably, yeah. 07:47:00 ~/.sbcl/systems it is 07:47:00 thanks 07:47:30 plage [n=user@118.71.57.230] has joined #lisp 07:47:31 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:47:35 Good afternoon! 07:47:41 Ralith: reload that page 07:47:49 Ralith: try putting (pushnew "/usr/share/common-lisp" asdf:*central-registry*) in your .sbclrc? 07:47:59 lisppaste: where are your annotation announcements? 07:47:59 hello plage 07:48:01 sykopomp: that sounds even better! 07:48:19 Ralith: you'll have to put (require 'asdf) before that, btw. 07:48:22 sykopomp: should -- 07:48:22 yeah 07:48:59 hm 07:49:03 worx? 07:49:08 I think it's trying to create /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/slime/swank-loader.fasl 07:49:12 which doesn't work because I'm not root 07:49:25 should I just run as root once? 07:49:28 no 07:49:38 huh wut 07:49:40 gah 07:49:48 this debian packaging thing sounds like a mess. 07:49:54 it's not debian :P 07:49:58 oh 07:50:00 what is it? 07:50:03 arch 07:50:08 wut 07:50:11 arch linux 07:50:15 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 07:50:16 yes. Which package. 07:50:22 that's my platform 07:50:51 slime-cvs from community 07:50:55 for the record -- I stopped using the slime in arch because it's horribly outdated. 07:51:02 I load it up with clbuild now. 07:51:06 20090106 is horribly outdated? 07:51:11 yes. It is. 07:51:18 okay, I guess I'll update then. 07:51:27 that one, in fact, has the evil bug where typing ~ anywhere in a lisp-mode buffer gives you package errors. 07:51:33 I encountered that. 07:51:35 it was annoying. 07:51:41 indeed. 07:51:50 hence why I load slime through clbuild now. 07:51:55 :P 07:52:01 *Ralith* grabs clbuild 07:52:38 remember to put (pushnew "/path/to/clbuild/systems/" asdf:*central-registry*) in .sbclrc :) 07:52:48 Ralith: http://unya.wordpress.com/2009/06/07/linux-common-lisp-quickstart/ <--- do it like that, less questions to ask before you learn enough to work around problems :P 07:53:24 speaking of arch packaging 07:53:35 I read through the pkgbuild for Arch's SBCL 07:53:50 I have -no idea- how the hell they managed to get it to quit the sbcl session whenever there's an error. 07:54:12 I would be quite miffed, if I ever used slime through cli. 07:54:17 sykopomp: disable-debugger 07:54:29 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:54:54 OTOH, they are the first distro I had seen to actually use SBCL for packaging lisp apps 07:55:20 p_l: I have no idea where they put that. 07:55:22 hm. 07:55:31 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-37.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:36 oh, nevermind. Found it. 07:55:38 *sykopomp* mutters. 07:56:11 -!- dys` [n=andreas@p5B3158C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:56:17 actually, no, that doesn't make sense. 07:56:25 dys` [n=andreas@p5B3158C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:34 <_3b> they use it when they save the core, and it gets saved with it 07:56:39 -!- WhiteFlame [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 07:56:45 <_3b> (or maybe it was --script or something that disables it) 07:57:03 as much as pain as these lisp packages seem to cause for people for people getting started with development, it is probably the only way CL apps are going to get pushed out to broader audience (of linux users, anyway) 07:57:04 _3b: I don't see it in the package's build script. That's the problem. 07:57:23 WhiteFlame [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:33 hefner: well, Arch seems to build images and drop them into packages together with executable 07:58:47 <_3b> ./src/runtime/sbcl --core output/sbcl.core --script \ ${startdir}/sbcl-fix-source-path.lisp 07:58:58 p_l: that sounds like a fine approach. 07:59:32 _3b: building the image with --script disables it?... 07:59:32 otoh, maxima already has a configure script supporting that, it seems 07:59:45 sykopomp: do you recommend usibg sbcl through arch's packages or through clbuild? 07:59:48 <_3b> sykopomp: if i remember right, i think that was it 07:59:54 Ralith: clbuild 07:59:58 'kay 08:00:02 Ralith: I'm perfectly happy with Arch's sbcl, actually. 08:00:06 Ralith: just install sbcl from pacman 08:00:14 I never use it through the command line, so it's never bothered me. 08:00:14 ...that would be arch's packages 08:00:17 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 08:00:43 Ralith: that guide i gave you url for uses arch-packaged sbcl for bootstrap 08:00:59 it's simply easier to have distro-managed sbcl as backup 08:01:13 p_l: so why bother building another? 08:01:17 Arch usually stays pretty up-to-date, too. 08:01:39 z4v [n=tmh@18987146231.nit.megazon.com.br] has joined #lisp 08:01:42 I also use the ccl from yaourt, atlhough it needs some tweaking before it works. 08:01:52 s/yaourt/AUR/ 08:02:29 Ralith: Because updating to prebuild version once fixed my problems with a certain package :D 08:02:41 -!- z4v is now known as sav_ 08:02:53 *Ralith* recalls being advised to keep separate development and system lisps anyway 08:03:02 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:03:45 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Success] 08:04:19 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 08:06:31 *Ralith* observes that sbcl takes a while. 08:06:37 -!- WhiteFlame [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [] 08:07:53 Ralith: AI attempts have it going for them, but don't worry, we might get to levels allowing to bruteforce a human brain soon 08:08:16 sounds like fun 08:08:41 wouldn't we need a sounder biological understanding first, though? 08:10:02 Ralith: If we had sounder understanding on cognition, we wouldn't have to bruteforce it 08:10:17 I wonder which one's harder. 08:10:27 afaik they are in process of making a BG/L into a cat 08:11:09 cracki [n=cracki@0-017.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:11:20 that would be impressive 08:11:36 what sort of sensory inputs are they planning on supplying? 08:11:43 I don't know 08:11:50 will be one deranged kitty 08:13:04 *Ralith* imagines a day when pets segfault 08:13:06 anyway, I'm personally thinking that it's the wrong way to go about AGI, though it will help with developing nanotech replacement for brain 08:13:27 You don't segfault on fixed storage, dummy 08:16:24 okay, sbcl and swank build from clbuild. 08:17:59 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:18:04 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:24:03 hefner: I think your curmudgeonry has rubbed off on me. 08:24:05 :\ 08:25:29 victory! at last, I can rest. 08:26:13 hefner: why do you think lispers often end up being grumpy party-poopers? 08:26:54 -!- irc_user [n=alan@pcd567174.netvigator.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:26:55 sykopomp: because they must do C++ all day long to bring the bread? 08:27:19 matimago: I don't think most of them do C++ for a living. 08:27:19 sykopomp: because we just *have to* point out that CL is not dead in middle of "new enterprises" party? :P 08:27:23 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:27:40 p_l: that seems to be closer to my gut feeling 08:27:45 sykopomp: try to make some statistics. 08:27:52 *p_l* actually did that, together with Haskell and general touting of looking "outside of Java/C++ mindset" 08:28:17 "new enterprises" party? 08:28:21 I think part of it for me is that I keep having to defend lisp against an army of people that feel they have to tell me 'what the problem with lisp really is... " 08:28:39 sykopomp, did you read the latest comment on dan weinreb's blog? 08:28:51 sykopomp, by the guy talking about lisp's flaws? 08:28:51 tic: no. I bet it's depressing. 08:28:56 Ralith: networking stuff 08:29:14 sykopomp, mostly uninformed. http://danweinreb.org/blog/the-worse-is-better-idea-and-the-future-of-lisp/comment-page-1#comment-28550 08:29:36 why do people feel so inclined to complain about lisp's problems when they don't really know anything about it? 08:30:26 tic: dan weinreb is a pretty cool guy, too, and very insightful. 08:30:42 sykopomp, yup. but the Tom guy isn''t 08:30:50 extensive community support is the reason why C++ has earned an extensive community? 08:30:54 *Ralith* facepalms 08:30:57 tic: which tom guy? 08:31:02 sykopomp: linked comment 08:31:16 oh 08:31:27 oh good god, he can't even type 08:31:37 it sounds like his complaint amounts to 08:31:45 "lisp sucks because I am incapable of understanding it" 08:31:54 also lispers smell and they have nasty beards 08:31:57 -!- saikat [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 08:31:58 he has a point 08:31:59 it sounds like he should prioritize understanding english. 08:32:04 heh 08:32:14 I'm allowed to say that. I'm not a native speaker. 08:32:20 *sykopomp* flashes his race card. 08:32:29 but the mindset comes from "how to get more programmers to the language" 08:33:01 is it, maybe, for some reason, possible that lisp isn't popular because it's not popular? :) 08:33:05 just a hunch. 08:33:14 that's as circular as tom's reasoning. 08:33:44 hefner: please, RMS is no longer a real lisper ;-) 08:34:03 RMS lost his lisper license the moment he chose that abortion of a lisp over common lisp. 08:34:19 it's a lisp only a mother could love. 08:34:51 also, I lol'd at comparison with natural languages, given that I'm used to one, which maybe officially follows some pattern, but seems to really follow one called "WTF" 08:34:55 you guys must descend from your high and mighty CL tower and learn to respect RMS's uncanny pragmatism. 08:34:59 liren [n=jyq@58.207.153.84] has joined #lisp 08:35:12 hefner: I'll give you that. 08:35:13 hefner: like eating whatever grows on his feet? 08:35:28 hey, if it's got nutrients! 08:35:29 plus, my fiancee has a crush on rms. My displeasure with him only goes so far. 08:35:33 *sykopomp* has a crush, too. 08:35:51 [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.177] has joined #lisp 08:36:12 *p_l* got over RMS-fanboying. ESR seems more agreeable... 08:37:06 *sykopomp* finds ESR quite disagreeable, but likes that essay. 08:38:25 RMS choosed emacs lisp at a time Common Lisp didn't exist yet. 08:38:39 vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 08:38:55 yes, but he kept it. 08:39:12 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 08:39:44 sykopomp: yes :-( 08:40:12 well, on the bright side 08:40:15 cltl3 is exciting :) 08:40:24 if it starts becoming a regular thing, that would be fantastic. 08:40:30 I hope it goes well. 08:40:53 cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 08:40:55 sykopomp: TAoUP was rather nice read and so far, nothing managed to disprove it in my eyes. Also, he managed as a "big community figure" to tell FSF "we don't need GPL anymore" :P 08:40:55 RMS: ...After this we will add a portable 08:40:56 Common Lisp, an Empire game, a spreadsheet, and hundreds of other 08:40:56 things, plus on-line documentation. We hope to supply, eventually, 08:40:56 everything useful that normally comes with a Unix system, and more. 08:41:19 check the GNU file in emacs' distribution etc directory 08:41:33 p_l: I happen to like the GPL 08:42:11 "Software programming rock stars test-drive their code, refactor mercilessly and deftly apply design patterns." Umm. Ok. 08:42:22 hm 08:42:33 sykopomp: nothing wrong with liking it. But I feel attacked way too much when I tell people that I prefer to release my open-source stuff under BSD/MIT or eventually LGPL 08:42:37 I guess that disqualifies just about every lisp programmer out there ;D 08:42:44 say, where is my empire game? 08:42:47 sykopomp: I hope so! 08:43:03 p_l: no kiddding. Actually, I also license everything under MIT. 08:43:05 splittist: at least it was about rockstars. I found an advert for a *badass* 08:43:43 mostly because I intend the stuff I write to be useful to the lisp 'community' as a whole, which is more valuable to me. 08:43:49 I love you guys. ;_; 08:43:52 I love CL so much ;_; 08:43:56 don't make it go away ;_: 08:44:04 to love something, you must destroy it 08:44:13 sykopomp: when I say that I don't have trouble with commercial usage of my code, *especially* if they say who is the author of that bit, I sometimes feel like I should have powered armor ^^; 08:44:15 I do. I regularly blow my stack/heap. 08:44:21 and emoLisp was born... 08:44:26 ... LOL 08:44:52 -!- cracki [n=cracki@0-017.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:44:55 p_l: there's a bunch of freetards in the college I graduated from. 08:45:00 elias` [n=c@host217-42-207-213.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:45:11 there was one quite convincing freevangelist going around getting cultists to follow him around, during my senior year. 08:45:28 of course, the man had never written a piece of code in his life, and had no interest in doing so. 08:45:41 >:| 08:47:10 The reason Common Lispers are curmudgeons is that we're pragmatists with a sense of history, so we /know/ everything sucks. 08:47:25 including common lisp! 08:47:26 -!- jdz_ is now known as jdz 08:47:35 sykopomp: exactly! 08:47:45 sykopomp, splittist: that's why i'm learning lisp :) 08:47:58 we're not pessimists. we're just informed optimists. 08:48:01 I hear that new C# is pretty spiffy. 08:48:19 got fed up with everything else. common lisp at least knows it sucks and isn't trying to claim anything else 08:48:26 jdz: what about all those lispers that have a falling out and become horribly depressed about the state of lisp? 08:48:28 all the kids are talking about it as I chase them off my lawn. 08:48:39 splittist: I thought that short crash course on OS design and general programming, using older books (one before advent of "everything is java") gave that attitude anyway 08:48:47 hefner: I hear Ruby is much more hip. 08:49:00 -!- sav_ [n=tmh@18987146231.nit.megazon.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:49:12 sykopomp: shit comes and goes, we stay. 08:49:32 sometimes I feel guilty about stereotyping, but it was pretty hilarious walking into a room full of programmers. Two hipsters were sitting near the back looking hip. They were rubyists. Everyone else was either middle-aged, had a neckboard, or both. 08:49:33 sykopomp: sure, but those C# guys run away lot faster 08:49:42 hefner: C# is quite nice. It certainly felt nicer than Java, and MS is careful with modifying the language (especially as they can't simply give an uber powerful uber tool and tell people to write their own) 08:49:44 i'm doing my work stuff in Clojure nowadays because i have to interoperate with stuff people around here write in Java 08:49:57 ZabaQ [n=johnc@88.211.46.93] has joined #lisp 08:50:23 jdz: gasp. A clojure user that doesn't come off as a troll?! 08:50:27 jdz: I love you. 08:50:52 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A08DA.versanet.de] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.93.1"] 08:50:54 p_l: C# is still Java++ :\ 08:50:56 I'm also clojuring because we want a cheap, simple GUI. 08:51:19 "cheap" 08:51:29 "simple" 08:51:50 but "portable" 08:51:59 "GUI"? :) 08:51:59 "portable"! 08:52:03 "want" 08:52:38 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:52:55 "\"\"" 08:52:56 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@194.11.28.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:52:58 sykopomp: yes, but at least MS was faster with letting more languages and mixing them 08:53:02 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 08:53:21 and their experiment with F# show that it works greatly not to constraint yourself into Java :> 08:53:21 grouzen [n=grouzen@194.11.28.1] has joined #lisp 08:54:40 I wonder how many people think "Ruby on Rails" is the name of a programming language 08:54:53 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:55:41 S11001001: not "Ruby on Rails" but "Rails" for that big percentile 08:58:06 -!- psheldr [n=user@217.13.173.118] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:58:16 the funny thing is that I learned Ruby before RoR even came about, and never did anything after with it, but I would thus be conflated with a RoR developer 09:00:27 haha 09:00:58 *p_l* considers taking up a job with a RoR startup 09:02:00 doing RoR definitely beats doing PHP (if the PHP is written by average joes) 09:02:47 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 09:02:48 that's what pushed me to RoR - winning an unofficial speedcoding competition in the form of a project that had its deadline backdated 09:03:56 otoh, PHP now has goto, but Ruby doesn't (afaik) 09:04:26 iirc, we had to have it running on friday, and it was on monday or tuesday that we learned just what we were supposed to use, rebelled and decided to write our own solution 09:04:27 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-31-5.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:04:28 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:04:37 the total mass of spaghetti in the world is gonna increase dramatically 09:05:34 all hail Flying Spaghetti Monster 09:06:35 cracki [n=cracki@0-060.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:11:10 fvw [n=sdfpme@119.128.75.213] has joined #lisp 09:11:56 -!- freethin` [n=user@adsl-190-240-156.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:12:07 freethin` [n=user@adsl-190-240-156.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:45 Numlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 09:17:22 -!- Numlock is now known as PissedNumlock 09:18:03 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 09:20:46 jdz: which gui toolkit are you going to use? swing? 09:21:21 antifuchs: forward to frodef 09:21:57 ah (: 09:22:13 i personally am not using any GUI toolkit at the moment, but swing would be my first choice because it preinstalled everywhere 09:22:35 does windows come with java these days ? 09:22:52 no, why would it? O.o 09:23:00 how is swing preinstalled everywhere then 09:23:01 thought so... well, it beats tkinter (-: 09:23:09 anybody know if clsql is still alive? 09:23:32 -!- plage [n=user@118.71.57.230] has left #lisp 09:23:33 I want to work with sqlite; that looks like the most powerfil interface 09:23:42 xristos: your feat of logic is appreciated. 09:25:37 good to know 09:26:02 xristos: if your [Java] program is running, it means swing is available. logical, no? 09:26:44 anybody said otherwise? 09:27:08 i smell trolls 09:27:18 where would they be hiding? 09:27:29 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 09:27:54 -!- jthing [n=jthing@254.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 09:29:37 antifuchs: I'd say tk beats swing, at least for me. Virtue of not-borked X11 implementation :D 09:30:15 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:37 p_l: yeah, I'm using a tk app on other platforms (: 09:31:23 *p_l* has a field day every time he has to run Swing apps 09:31:30 hm, cl-rdbms looks shinier 09:31:34 anyone have any thoughts? 09:31:46 I looked at using clojure to get QT gui stuff working... 09:31:57 then I found commonqt and forgot about that... 09:32:23 and then noticed that not everything works under commonqt yet... 09:32:31 thijso: don't forget that Jambi is deprecated 09:32:32 and then that whole gui thing stalled... 09:33:49 p_l: yeah... I'm just waiting for someone to make commonqt work fully with SBCL and also support poppler and some other stuff... ;) 09:35:29 oh, and a CL interface to sphinx (the database search thingy) would be great too! ;) 09:36:11 *thijso* has been noticing lately that working full-time on a perl project is poisoning his brain... 09:36:24 thijso: cl-smoke seems to have more broad support, but has this pesky dependency on mudballs :P 09:36:31 had a bit of trouble getting into a lisp mindset yesterday evening 09:37:07 p_l: hmm... haven't really looked at cl-smoke... probably because commonqt seemed to work more or less out of the box... 09:37:15 I'll have a look at that though.. 09:39:02 *Ralith* feels invisible 09:40:35 thijso: blame it on mudballs. getting commonqt after the bile of fighting kdebindings was nice and easy, I didn't have the patience for setting up mudballs ;) 09:44:21 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:44:37 which is the fashion of the today? clbuild, mudballs or xcvb? 09:45:14 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-143-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:45:28 I use clbuild at the moment... is mudballs compatible? i.e. can I use them both... guess I need to go read some docs... 09:46:22 drafael [n=tapio@118.90.128.20] has joined #lisp 09:49:21 -!- liren [n=jyq@58.207.153.84] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:51:08 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-12-148.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:54:27 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.133.76] has joined #lisp 09:55:34 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:08:51 dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:50 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 10:10:33 reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:17:05 Is it possible to collect values in 2 lists?(using loop) I have to read few numbers, and I'd like to put the 1st,3rd,5th.. to one list and 2nd 4th... to the other 10:20:19 clhs 6.1.6 10:20:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_af.htm 10:21:09 collect a into as collect b into bs return (values as bs) or similar 10:21:42 thx :D 10:22:13 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:23:59 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 10:24:32 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:33:29 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 10:40:36 timor [n=martin@w5012.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 10:42:16 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 10:42:37 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 10:47:50 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-12-148.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:50:17 kei_ [n=gueorgui@gmt.su] has joined #lisp 11:00:18 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:00:36 -!- kei [n=gueorgui@gmt.su] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:01:02 although, p_l, I see on the cl-smoke website that it's a choice between mudballs or asdf... 11:01:29 -!- drafael [n=tapio@118.90.128.20] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:01:40 mfk [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 11:02:30 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.133.76] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:05:40 thijso: there's some mention of asdf, but let me check... 11:06:10 yup, no asdf definition files 11:07:20 danlei [n=user@pD9E2F73B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:44 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:08:18 -!- domiel [n=dnj@58.172.210.231] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:11:53 The .asd files are generated from the mudballs files. Get the .asd files and place them in the corresponding source directories. 11:12:07 the 'Get the .asd files' part is a link to a tar 11:12:25 s/a/the/ tar.gz file with the asd files in it... 11:12:39 it's more work than for mudballs, but not excessively so it seems... 11:12:58 (that first sentence is a copy-paste from the docs, btw) 11:13:20 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 11:13:34 but I'm not at my own machine right now, so not really able to check if it works 11:14:33 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 11:14:35 -!- vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:16:57 thijso: ah, last time I checked, they weren't 11:20:27 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:31 any good document in info format for common lisp? I want to have something in Emacs that I can refer to easily. Thank you. 11:22:42 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 11:24:31 -!- ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has quit [Success] 11:24:36 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 11:26:52 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-138-193-165.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:27:31 frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@195.83.212.223] has joined #lisp 11:27:53 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 11:29:47 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:29:51 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 11:30:33 -!- divz [n=divz@117.98.136.52] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:30:52 leo2007: ftp://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/gcl/gcl.info.tgz 11:31:43 is there a list of format parameters, i can't seem to find even a semi definitive list 11:31:46 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483CC37.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:55 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:31:57 blandest: thanks 11:32:02 is there one for cltl? 11:32:22 I'm not sure, that's the only one that I could find 11:33:04 leo2007: hyperspec is nicely accessible from emacs 11:33:16 IMHO as well or better than INFO 11:33:33 p_l: using w3m ? 11:33:33 p_l: yes, with a browser. but info is the best for me 11:34:04 INFO is a curious beast, though. It's rare to find such old tool still used. 11:34:37 that gcl is still quite incomplete 11:34:48 sorry i found it, i must have been tired when i looked last night 11:34:50 blandest: and yes, I'm using w3m 11:34:56 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-128-20.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:35:00 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:35:40 funnily enough, info took transition to *nix-land much better than some recent grafts from winnt world 11:35:48 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 11:36:09 leo2007: http://www.phys.au.dk/~harder/dpans.html 11:37:23 the draft doesn't include additions featured in HyperSpec, right? 11:37:48 no idea, it's good enough for most things 11:38:31 leo2007: there's also a patch by kreuter for dpans2texi, which cleans up a few things: http://foldr.org/~michaelw/tmp/dpans2texi.diff 11:38:39 michaelw: thanks. Do you have a ready-to-use one? I don't have c compiler in my machine. 11:39:23 leo2007: ... wait, you have lisp, but no C? What's that, Genera? 11:40:02 I am on mac and the development kit has not been installed 11:40:22 leo2007: then use the one given by p_l above (from gcl) 11:40:34 michaelw: that was blandest 11:40:41 err, sorry 11:40:43 p_l: for common lisp, is it necessary to have c compiler around? 11:41:11 depends on the implementation 11:41:13 leo2007: no, but it's useful for many other things, not to mention it might contain some generic stuff that you might *really want* 11:41:14 but not usually 11:41:25 leo2007: you should probably install the dev tools 11:41:27 like, let's say, low-level native debugger 11:41:29 they're useful 11:41:31 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:41:42 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-128-20.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:41:59 ok, I will do that when I need it. 11:41:59 (and a mere 2gb download; how did people manage before ADSL2+?) 11:42:32 rsynnott: half insane cthuloid sorcery pulled over GPRS 11:42:48 yes, that's why I didn't install it in the first place. Lots of extra stuff and seems no way to pick and install 11:43:04 i think it was something called CDs not sure my history might be weak :p 11:44:22 Guthur: I recall something called "LAN" and "shell accounts on school network" 11:44:38 (and no quota + torrent client = RULZ) 11:45:08 how long has torrent been around, was it around longer than its been popular 11:45:18 it been* 11:45:30 Guthur: I remember when it appeared for the first time 11:45:39 and the original client was the only thing 11:46:09 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-19-8.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:46:12 I'm not sure, but it seems to have displaced newsgroups since then 11:46:38 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-128-20.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:47:12 well wiki has the first bittorrent client as 2001, its probably wrong though ;) 11:47:53 KaZaA&co remain in use by clueless masses, IRC is still alive, actually seems better than it was back during my first tries 11:48:17 i nearly forgot about those precursor 11:48:34 public netnews servers that are not commercial somehow disappeared 11:48:53 dunno about how DirectConnect keeps it nowaday 11:49:08 and yes, 2001~2002 would be around the time BT appears 11:49:10 probably got caught up in the litigation nightmare 11:49:37 to dangerous to stay active for fear or being sued for some infringement, possibly 11:49:41 Guthur: DC got out of control by company, they can't put the lid back 11:49:43 michaelw: dpANS is basically hyperspec but in info format, right? 11:50:12 leo2007: except it contains only the draft standard, without any notes etc. from clhs 11:50:55 as for BT, I remember that it really got operational and started getting popular where I could encounter it somewhere around 2003, afaik 11:51:23 p_l: thanks. I got the html version on my disk already 11:52:18 p_l ya sounds about right, apparently the pirate party won some gains in the European elections, on a slightly related note :p 11:52:28 not 100# 11:52:40 not 100%, i did follow the process 11:52:41 given how far onto the bleeding edge fansubbing community is, I suspect 2003 was the time BT took off :P 11:52:43 didn't* 11:52:46 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:52:47 Guthur: they've got one seat 11:52:50 darn fingers :) 11:52:52 from Sweden 11:52:55 sadly, the proper usage of newsgroups has been mostly replaced with distribution of large files 11:53:11 yay us 11:53:30 rsynnott: but now even getting unpaid access to groups outside alt.bin* is hard! 11:53:48 unfortunately britain elected some fascists, to compensate 11:53:52 the uk managed to vote in some pseudo facists as well 11:54:10 but anyway a little OT 11:54:33 *p_l* is confined to accessing news through Google Groups thanks to lack of accesible servers... 11:54:36 p0a [n=lisp@athedsl-382011.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:55:22 Hello I wrote this function and I have trouble naming it 11:55:22 I think there are still a few free servers with the comp.* hierarchy 11:55:23 http://paste.lisp.org/display/81760 11:56:02 rsynnott ya though one comment i would make is, thats democracy, and is people don't like it they should blame the system :), the most famous one was voted in democraticly after all 11:56:03 Is there a standard or de facto way to do this, instead of having every project implementing this? 11:56:08 -!- freethin` [n=user@adsl-190-240-156.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:56:13 is/if 11:56:26 freethin` [n=user@adsl-190-240-156.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:05 Guthur: Democracy assumes that the most will know best for all. How often is that true? 11:57:23 Abhishek` [n=Abhishek@115.184.164.246] has joined #lisp 11:57:37 p0a: are you trying to write #'compose ? 11:57:39 rsynnott: comp.* doesn't include alt.sysadmin.recovery 11:57:45 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:57:51 I'd be inclined to blame the British political status quo, where the only two big parties have both let the people down badly in the last couple of decades 11:57:55 p0a 'mob rule', Plato himself said it would happen, and that was quite some time ago :) 11:58:08 unfortunately, this makes people more likely to vote for crazy racists 11:58:12 p0a: assumption that was practically proven to be false if you give voting rights to everyone 11:58:15 Guthur: I read plato 11:58:23 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-128-20.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:58:34 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-128-20.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:58:54 The societies are too big to properly vote the way we are now, IMHO 11:59:25 p_l: in my opinion it is a mix of improper leadership and growth 11:59:27 I think people are a bit idealistic about democracy; it is simply the least-worst approach 11:59:29 i need to find the time to read some Plato, i just know some references to his republic, which rated democracy as only 3 out of 5 11:59:36 IOW, cltl3 should eschew democracy 11:59:44 rsynnott: you /think/. Do you have evidence it is? 12:00:12 the elected representatives protect the country from the idiot electorate, and the civil servants protect the country from the idiot politicians :) 12:00:21 splittist: I concur. I should get to decide all. 12:00:25 p0a: well, everything else that has been tried so far has failed miserably 12:00:32 p0a: we are the "ruling" species on Earth only because we are the most badass murderous bastards who excel at "dealing" with everything "alien" to us 12:00:40 don't most languages take the benevolent dictator approach these days? :) 12:00:52 Guthur: http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/p#a93 12:01:05 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@119.128.75.213] has quit ["leaving"] 12:01:10 rsynnott: 1) Not everything that has been proposed has been tried. 2) something can fail if the correct preperations are not taken 12:01:12 democracy in a group that has knowledge and understanding is not bad, but when you include people who are not welling to try for either it's pointless imho 12:01:19 rsynnott: Because if you can get competent long-term ruler + court, it's more stable and efficient than democracy 12:01:36 p_l: in principle 12:01:46 in practice, it hasn't generally worked out that way 12:01:51 stable democracy in a group that has knowledge and understanding of the matter at hand is basically the same 12:02:07 the problem with a benevolent dictator is that even if they exist in the first place they have a nasty habit of eventually dying 12:02:12 p0a cheers :) 12:02:17 bookmarked 12:02:19 rsynnott: we suck at the "choosing competent people" part, which is I guess also the bane of democracy 12:02:22 Guthur: np ;-) gutenburg is awesome. 12:02:27 gutenberg* 12:02:41 so as I say, "I, for one, welcome our new AGI overlords" 12:02:54 p0a ya seems to be 12:03:12 i wonder if they have that herman kane book i wanted to check out 12:03:17 its been out of print 12:03:32 Guthur: There's a law that says everything written 70 or so years after an authors death belongs to public use... they've been collecting such books, you can contribute to the project yourself I think like anyone else 12:03:50 -!- Abhishek` [n=Abhishek@115.184.164.246] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.91.1"] 12:04:08 I had asked a lisp question a while ago and we're caught in off-topic discussions so I'll repeat it, here's the code http://paste.lisp.org/display/81760 is there a standard or de facto way to do this? 12:05:48 *p_l* is trying to understand what exactly is it doing, and if it's doing what he suspects it is doing, why? 12:05:55 Someone annotated, thanks :-) 12:06:06 me, hope it helps 12:06:08 p_l: The purpose is to write it as such: (let ((y 'someval)) (find-if (lambda (x) (member y x)) list)). Instead of using the lambda function, one could write (f #'member thing) 12:06:26 right 12:06:49 *p_l* should stop his two-day awake, one long sleep cycle 12:07:32 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcb041.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:07:33 blandest: Hmm... Your function does something different. If F is mine and G yours, (f #'fun arg) returns a function that when it is called, say with arguments 1 and 2, will call (fun arg 1 2) 12:08:10 Yours combines functions, (compose #'f #'g) -> returns a function that is equivalent to (f (g args)) 12:09:08 p_l: you should certainly stop doing that, it harms your memory. it's best to sleep few hours periodically 12:09:16 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:09:29 If you've got a busy schedule or otherwise want to be active many hours... 12:10:17 -!- TauPan [n=taupan@dudelab.org] has quit ["Changing server"] 12:10:30 blandest: nevermind, you helped. thanks 12:10:31 -!- p0a [n=lisp@athedsl-382011.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 12:10:44 did I scare him ? :) 12:11:20 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:11:33 heh. I know about memory effects of sleep deprivation, had them on exams... 12:11:45 p_l: two day awake?! as in 48 hours? 12:12:01 -!- timor [n=martin@w5012.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:12:25 rsynnott: no, not that bad. but make that into ~36h/12h cycle 12:13:15 I srsly need an online defragmenter/tree shaker -_-; 12:13:47 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:13:53 ugh 12:14:18 I've stayed up that long once or twice; it nearly killed me 12:14:42 (quite literally in once case; I nearly walked out in front of a car on my way home from work) 12:14:52 TauPan [n=taupan@dudelab.org] has joined #lisp 12:15:29 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:07 rsynnott: I only lost my plane back home for christmas, when two missed nigths knocked me out cold 12:16:13 timor [n=martin@w4598.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 12:17:20 I think I might need to investigate some of the weirder sleep cycles 12:17:59 rsynnott: 36/12 is about my normal day cycle when hacking... 12:19:12 Once upon a time I kept that rythm for weeks. 12:19:57 matimago: that's what is happening to me (one long sleep, sleepless night, start again), minus any real hacking/work done 12:21:17 dalkvist [n=cairdaza@213.226.77.211] has joined #lisp 12:22:23 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:23:51 -!- cracki [n=cracki@0-060.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 12:24:49 p_l: without hacking, it's a shame and lost time. 12:25:38 matimago: yeah. That's actually what worries me 12:26:04 Does Slime currently work with Emacs 22.3 on Windows or do I need a newer emacsen? 12:26:24 ... and once again, I love vagueness of internet tests. "Your sleep pattern: 53% optimised" ;_; 12:26:26 works on linux 12:27:19 -!- tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:27:47 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 12:28:44 matimago: otoh, I noticed it makes wonders for designing psychopatic characters and Uncanny Valley ones. 12:28:49 p_l: http://www.scribd.com/doc/3932344/40-Sleep-Hacks-The-Geeks-Guide-to-Optimizing-Sleep?autodown=pdf 12:29:05 p_l: for that, you'd need 72/0 12:29:10 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 12:29:33 matimago: 72/0 brings me to automatic shutdown of higher-order facilities 12:29:36 -!- freethin` [n=user@adsl-190-240-156.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:29:50 freethin` [n=user@74.190.240.156] has joined #lisp 12:30:41 "Sleep is a symptom of caffeine deprivation." :-) 12:31:24 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:32:02 matimago: Actually, I designed a sleep pattern for one of my s-f stories based entirely on possible AI and cybernetics advances... would be interesting to use :) 12:32:29 whatever happened to russian sleep machines? 12:33:04 (old pop-science magazines often mentioned an alleged sleep inducing machine developed in the soviet union; never heard anything about it since) 12:33:30 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 12:34:05 they found they liked pistol-whipping better 12:34:11 never heard of it. I did hear about certain 23.75/0.25 regime used by special forces on missions. 12:34:14 ZabaQ: It should work 12:34:29 dlowe: you don't waste pistols like that :3 12:35:18 p_l: solo skipers do have interesting sleep patterns too. Something like 5.75/0.25 12:35:23 Say a project's .asd file depends on :uffi; can I get it easily to use cffi-uffi-compat? 12:35:48 tcr: in theory it should work. Not sure about how well cffi emulates uffi 12:35:54 Basically: get a nap when compiling. Oops doesn't work with Lisp, it's good with C++ though.... 12:36:09 matimago: I had seen that one used in normal life as well 12:36:24 tcr: in theory; in practice some systems are bitches vs. cffi-uffi-compat. Some hacking needed. 12:36:35 p_l: I mean I have to modify the project's .asd? or can I create an uffi.asd link to cffi-uffi-compat.asd? 12:36:58 tcr: I guess that simply loading cffi beforehand should deal with it 12:38:48 unfortunately, whoever designed humans chose a stop-and-copy GC approach :) 12:39:26 phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 12:39:39 hmm, not sure that cffi always makes :uffi a nickname for :cffi-uffi-compat 12:39:51 rsynnott: it's not really stop-and-copy, it's more like we don't have proper resources to do full-speed GC without swapping off consciousness 12:42:01 it also includes compacting and crossreferencing data in crazy ways, not to mention semantic analysis to create two completely different variants of long-term memory 12:42:11 tcr: there is uffi.asd inside ufff-compat directory 12:42:14 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 12:44:06 ffx` [n=ittakest@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:45:09 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:46:13 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:53 cracki [n=cracki@0-068.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:48:01 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-128-20.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:48:06 slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-175-173.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 12:48:52 pjb hi pascal! 12:49:02 matimago: btw, I'm the only person I've heard of to exhibit severe jetlag-like effects from 1h difference. With the main part of the flight spent sleeping as soon as I was sure the pilots didn't forget to set flaps for takeoff. 12:49:48 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:08 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-12-148.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:51:03 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:51:11 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:53:07 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:53:16 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 12:54:17 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 12:55:06 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["."] 12:56:12 p_l: :-) Usually people sleep in trains. In short plane legs, I spend my time trying to look out of the porthole. 12:57:01 Hi slackaholic! 12:57:14 matimago hi! 12:57:20 matimago what's up? 12:57:34 Nothing new. (matimago = pjb) 12:57:55 matimago: I sleep even during ~1h car trips 12:58:12 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:58:17 p_l: not when you're behind the wheel hopefully 12:59:27 matimago where are you from? 12:59:46 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 12:59:49 jdz: I don't have a driver's license, and no, if I have control, I don't sleep. It's kind of conditioned to "someone else is in control of vehicle and I don't have any task" situation 13:00:16 *stassats* sometimes sleeps on a metro escalators 13:00:25 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 13:00:38 wow 13:02:00 btw, the element-type of stream works properly for file I/O in current free lisps, right? Asking cause outside of VMS, CL is the only place where I've met with record-based file access 13:02:00 the crucial thing is to wake up before it ends 13:02:34 looks to me like a "tricky part" 13:02:59 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B373.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:05 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:18 yeah 13:05:34 slackaholic: that question is somewhat meaningless. My current location is at work, quite near Paris, France, Europe, Earth, Solar system, Milkyway Galaxy, Local amas, near the great attractor, Universe, within God. 13:05:36 brb 13:05:56 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:06:12 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:06:17 matimago hahahahahahahaahahahahaha 13:06:31 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 13:06:32 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:07:00 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcb041.osnanet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 13:09:04 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 13:10:14 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:13:48 elias` [n=c@host86-159-170-69.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:13:48 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:57 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-168-132-106.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:31 -!- phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 13:19:45 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 13:25:09 merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has joined #lisp 13:25:49 seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 13:25:58 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-31-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:28:39 brothers [n=brothers@66-234-33-22.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:05 matimago: I wouldn't be sure about the last part of your physical-path-spec ;-) 13:31:19 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-100-82.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:31:36 And he probably is on a chair in an office. 13:35:04 azuk` [i=azure@s2.org] has joined #lisp 13:35:51 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:35:51 -!- dys` [n=andreas@p5B3158C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:35:51 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:35:51 -!- lujz [n=lujz@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:35:51 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:35:51 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:35:51 -!- azuk [i=azure@s2.org] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:35:51 -!- Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:35:51 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:35:51 -!- pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:35:51 -!- Qsource [i=dima@torch.blackened.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:36:11 antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:12 -!- chpln [n=chpln@ppp121-45-68-208.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:37:31 Ah - but the question was 'where are you from'. So perhaps he has first-hand knowledge of that last part... 13:37:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 13:38:10 pragma_ [n=pragma@blackshell.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:12 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:31 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:35 Indeed, that last part is also the origin, so... 13:38:38 -!- pragma_ is now known as Guest45007 13:39:08 ... ok, something is wrong. I'm calling (read-byte) on file stream... ok, solved, just weird data in file 13:40:33 benbelly [n=bholm1@cpe-74-67-149-169.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:13 I forgot that pagemap might have weird contents 13:41:33 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:33 matimago & p_l: 'in God' is certainly a perspective i don't hear very often 13:41:37 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:42:34 it reminds me of Minbari religion, though they would stop at "Universe" 13:43:52 poor god! He had a universe lodged in his abdominal cavity, and was being pulled into the great attractor! 13:43:53 I was thinking neoplatonism. But perhaps I have the relationship backwards 13:44:03 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-175-173.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:44:03 (I'm sure that paranoid people HATE the great attractor) 13:44:15 Guthur: Indeed, often it's thought that the universe, being a creation, is "outside" of God. But I find it more logically consistent to consider the creation inside God. God at the same time "creates itself" in a way, and "sustain" the creation it holds inside Himself. 13:44:40 rsynnott: :-) Don't tell the "ecologists" about it! 13:44:44 mm..do I want to use SBCL on win32 or ccl, I wonder.. 13:45:12 do you want to use win32, should be a question, hhh only joking :) 13:45:47 obviously I want Linux on a Cray, but.. 13:45:53 ZabaQ: ccl seems less explodey these days 13:46:05 is cray win32 :o 13:46:08 (and it has win32 threads! Yay!) 13:46:10 Guthur: no 13:46:35 oh for a minute there i thought the world had gone mad :p 13:46:40 (you could probably run the Itanium version of windows on the Itanium crays, in principle) 13:46:52 cray has lots of x86 machines, though... 13:47:20 so maybe you could get it to run VMWare or WINE ;) 13:47:24 rsynnott: if you are crayzy 13:47:41 *ZabaQ* will try CCL. 13:47:56 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 13:48:03 ZabaQ: keep us updated with your experiences, if you can (: 13:48:07 but IMO, SiCortex > Cray :) 13:48:29 (There's a story that back in the day Steve Jobs told Seymour Cray that they were using a Cray to design Macs, and Cray replied that that was funny because they were using a mac to design Crays) 13:49:33 low-end Cray's run Windows 2008 HPC 13:49:39 *Crays 13:49:44 or a linux variant 13:51:05 higher-end is all various versions of UNICOS, with the most prominent one being actually a variant of Linux 13:51:50 oh, they're using xeons now 13:52:09 only on the deskside crays 13:53:00 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:06 big units are AMD64 or their own architecture, with one of the models being a mixture of AMD64, Cray's vector cpus and FPGAs 13:53:15 well i'm not likely to have access, or actually a need, for such fancy toys, unfortunately. 13:53:38 p_l: I thought they discontinued the FPGA one a few years back... 13:54:04 but FPGAs are all the rage! 13:54:07 Phoodus: FPGAs are available as modules in the tri-arch one 13:54:12 they have smaller/rackable units now. 13:54:13 ah 13:54:31 the older one that had two AMD64 + FPGA on each module got discontinued, afaik 13:54:41 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has quit ["leaving"] 13:54:44 anyway, I'm saving up for a deskside from these guys: http://www.sicortex.com/ 13:54:54 they're dead jim. 13:54:58 Phoodus: be quick, they're dead 13:55:02 really? 13:55:11 Phoodus: yeah, and not their fault actually 13:55:18 Phoodus: what would you do on it? 13:55:30 got a distributed AI infrastructure going, needs more iron 13:55:34 stassats: PDS was a formidable workstation :) 13:55:39 p_l: bankrupt? 13:55:51 rsynnott: all VCs pulled their money basically overnight 13:55:56 ah 13:56:01 ooh, that sucks 13:56:10 and the global recession claims another victim 13:56:11 their sales are supposedly quite strong 13:56:13 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-48-50.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:21 phoodus i was just thinking of distributed computing actually :) 13:56:24 they are running breakdown and bankrupcy proceedings with skeleton crew 13:57:04 that really sucks 13:57:27 Phoodus: they were fastest grower in HPC market, apparently. And just few weeks before going bankrupt, they had acquired another sale of the bigger systems for research 13:57:44 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:57:54 It's always depressing to see a company with a good product stuffed by moneymen. 13:58:04 we were planning on getting a PDS once we went over a few dozen instances on EC2 13:58:08 wonder why the VCs freaked out 13:58:12 since it'd end up a lot cheaper 13:58:24 dlowe: HPC market losing sales 13:58:40 BTW, to any open-sauce Lisp implementations have any provisions for automatically parallelizing independent code on multiprocessor systems? 13:59:00 antoszka: automatically... not really 13:59:25 independent code? you mean beyond loop iteration? 13:59:36 Even loop iteration (without side effects). 13:59:52 autopar is a pipe dream. 14:00:03 yep 14:00:14 I'm not sure if there is *any* runtime that does that kind of stuff automatically. Some languages give you access to intrinsics for parallel computation, and there are tools that parallelize code written by human 14:00:28 go to fortran if you want autopar, or erlang if you want coarse-grained parallelism 14:00:45 Phoodus: even then it's not automatic. 14:00:50 clojure has pmap 14:00:54 -!- free_thinker [n=willijar@134.151.144.246] has left #lisp 14:00:56 Fortran reminds me of OpenMP, Erlang is more like MPPs 14:01:07 nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:10 G'morning all. 14:01:12 joachifm [n=joachim@ti132110a340-3137.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 14:01:14 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 14:01:49 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-128-20.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 14:01:49 *p_l* feels weird seeing the same person greet everyone with G'morning without him catching any sleep in between.... 14:02:05 Heh. 14:03:26 *Phoodus* reads some googled sicortex articles 14:03:28 Phoodus: Mhm. Yeah. Thought that someone has started building this kind of stuff into recent lisp compilers (most current systems being multicore/multicpu). 14:03:44 man, I hope there are investors viewing this as a great opportunity to snatch up a growing company 14:03:47 Phoodus: Perhaps it's more complicated than I imagine. 14:04:10 like jdz said, you can do things like parallel map easily enough 14:04:27 map states that the operations are applied in order doesn't it? 14:04:31 but that's very fine-grained. Unless your program spends the majority of its time in a single map, it's not going to help that much 14:04:38 Right. 14:04:46 merimus: if your language is functional, it does not matter 14:05:04 true, but general purpose code can't always count on that 14:05:08 You know, someone ought to update the README file in Slime's CVS. You probably want (slime-setup '(slime-repl)) and not (slime-setup) when you try Slime first time out of the box. Just saying. 14:05:10 I bet pmap doesn't guarantee execution ordering 14:05:15 Is there any canonical multiprocessing reading for common lisp you'd recommend? 14:05:22 and if the language is not, you're supposed to know whether you should or should not rely on the order 14:05:31 Or for any particular implementations specifically? 14:05:36 ZabaQ: send a patch 14:05:36 parallelizing some of these operations would actually be very simple now... assuming no sideeffects 14:05:39 antoszka: at this point, it's threading and IPC just like everything else 14:05:50 antoszka: If you're into auotmatic parallelization I'd rather look into Haskell 14:06:00 tcr: yep 14:06:09 Intel's TBB would be very useful to pull it off 14:06:27 I've gotten very good results with it so far 14:06:33 tcr: The problem is I'm currently interested in CL :). 14:06:39 merimus: Common Lisp is not a functional programming language, contrary to common belief. 14:06:40 antoszka: I guess reading up on Lisp* (or what was the name) might be useful 14:07:02 p_l: thx. 14:07:05 with qlet? 14:07:11 tcr: yea, I'm aware... we could have the compiler test for sideeffects in the applied kernel though 14:07:28 antoszka: you might also be interested in reading up on how Erlang does its parallelism 14:07:36 antoszka: Nice! For SBCL there's http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Threading.html#Threading 14:07:46 Thanks, all. 14:08:02 merimus: We could write a parallel-optimized, pure functional subset for heavily parallel operations 14:08:52 p_l: I was actually playing with that idea fairly recently 14:08:58 ZaBaQ: ccl has been good for me on win32 (with good being: threading, talking to three C++ libraries through wrappers and keyboard and mouse input and output in a graphics window) 14:09:00 willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:09:40 merimus: I had seen a complete pure functional dialect implemented in some "normal" lisp some time ago 14:09:51 with, afaik, compiler 14:10:14 it was in some FP textbook, circa '92 14:11:13 aerique: Sounds good enough for me. 14:11:14 p_l: problem is most programmers whine like crazy if you make them do pure func. 14:11:29 p_l: googles map_reduce is actually pretty close to that however 14:11:42 *ZabaQ* has CCL & slime going on Win32. Unexpectedly easy. 14:12:00 merimus: that's why I was thinking of making a small interface between the pure functional dialect and CL environment, so you could switch between them to manage various parts 14:12:29 p_l: assuming it wasn't clumsy that would actually be a very good idea. 14:12:46 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E46F2D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:01 ZabaQ: cool! Next step X and Clim? (; 14:13:23 merimus: it might however require an implementation that extended CL quite a lot, to make sure that the boundaries between code layers are separated 14:14:08 or rather, that gave you apriopriate control over various parts of environment. I like Erlang's "shared-nothing" model more than STM, for example 14:14:33 p_l: my first thought on how to do it would be to pass a 'kernel' to the autopar routing which was written in a PF dialect of lisp. 14:14:44 p_l: that would make it pretty tranparent 14:15:16 splittist: asdf is probably the next thing :-) 14:15:26 it's easy to test to see if a piece of lisp has sideeffects isn't it? 14:15:46 ZaBaQ: first time on win32? 14:16:05 ZabaQ: I'm working on modifying ASDF in a way that should fix win32 problems 14:16:33 (as in, permanently) 14:16:53 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-12-148.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:16:59 I just throw all directories with Lisp software into ASDFs central registry and am planning to do the same on Unix. I'm starting to dislike the symlinks solution. 14:17:11 aerique: first time in a few years, yes. 14:17:16 dat [n=dthomp@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:36 aerique: I was going to add search over directories with support for multiple versions 14:17:36 p_l: what problems? 14:17:49 Phoodus: reliance on symlinks 14:17:53 ZaBaQ: see above in that case :) it's the least hassle for me at least 14:19:23 p_l: that sounds good 14:19:28 Phoodus: Plus, I wanted versioned deps 14:20:02 And I don't know how windows implementations react to symlinks, given that I have seen only one compile with MS runtime 14:20:31 there are no symlinks in windows (though I think ntfs might support them) 14:21:28 because setting symlinks on windows isn't hard for me, it's just "ln -s " and screw explorer.exe not understanding the listing, but I'm not sure about non-MS libc reacting to it 14:21:31 Explorer understands *.lnk files, but that's not a feature of the filesystem 14:21:55 Phoodus: Vista has something resembling symlinks, but XP doesn't 14:22:22 blandest: afaik XP does, but the necessary userspace tools aren't well fleshed out 14:22:34 I think sysinternals have some kind of symlink creation tool thinggy available for download, works only on newer versions of ntfs, though. 14:22:37 while NT6.x line makes excessive use of both symlinks and hardlinks 14:22:42 Isn't that a feature of NTFS? 14:22:59 That's been there since whenever? 14:23:08 it's been there since ~2000 14:23:12 Yeah. 14:23:25 it's just that windows world didn't use it (though NT6 exploits them fully) 14:23:30 there are junctions (for folders) and hardlinks (for files) but there are some limitations that prevent XP from having real symlinks 14:23:46 blandest: they were userspace-related 14:24:07 for example, explorer.exe still freaks out with symlinks and hardlinks 14:24:14 NTFS has a lot of cool stuff that Windows doesn't properly utilize 14:24:20 -!- mfk [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:24:43 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-182-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 14:25:00 Phoodus: because it's actually at least two different filesystems, but rarely anyone bothers to properly utilize *any* NT feature... 14:25:27 lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-13-47.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:27 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:26:40 for example, symlinks, junctions etc. are just "reparse points", being there since forever, which tell the system to delegate further pathfinding to another module for implementing a feature outside of standard driver 14:26:44 mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:27:24 -!- timor [n=martin@w4598.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:27:55 there are also some layers that work over NTFS to provide additional tools, like transactional IO or log-structured fs 14:28:07 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:28:32 It's not just symlinks. Windows has multiple desktop support. The Sysinternals desktop switcher helps a lot in making me feel less claustrophobic on a win box. 14:28:35 also, reading NTFS with hexeditor was much saner experience than trying that against ext2/3 >_< 14:29:00 mfk [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 14:29:12 something about modern design instead of 80's legacy, you could say ;> 14:29:34 malcolmreynolds [n=malc@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:30:16 there are warts, but you can modify them without breaking structure of the filesystem, as they can be considered "implementation dependant decisions on how space allocation and GC should be done" 14:30:58 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 14:31:13 timor [n=martin@w4568.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 14:31:30 btw, XP has the same NTFS version as Vista, which is a minor release from 2k driver 14:32:18 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:34:15 *p_l* is astonished at how he turned from heavy microsoft-basher to actually defending their products... 14:34:56 -!- frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@195.83.212.223] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:35:10 It's not the real p_l... GET HIM! 14:35:48 MS dumped Win-FS for vista, it was in the initial list of features for longhorn 14:35:52 merimus: I turned that few years ago 14:36:16 Guthur: maybe because it's really hard to fit in? Especially given the inertia of traditional API? 14:36:26 *ZabaQ* sympathises with p_l. I used to be an MS hater, but they are quite good, technically with many products. Business ethics, on the other hand.. 14:36:42 and while they don't actually market WinFS, most of it is there... 14:37:05 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 14:37:05 ZabaQ: Let's say that they are not known for having the best manglement in all positions 14:37:18 if anyone is able to spare a bit of time to help me, please take a look at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81766 14:37:30 I recently heard that someone from marketing wormed himself/herself to MS Research 14:37:52 it consists of a first version of 3 macros, and a second version which changes the behaviour in a minor way but for some reason doesn't work like i want 14:38:51 i get the error that "the function nil is undefined" which I'm guessing means one of the calls to (funcall *nid-counter*) is doing something wrong but I really don't see the problem 14:39:15 p_l i'm not sure on the implementation details of win-fs to be fair, but they maybe should have made a cleaner start with vista and left XP for legacy, which they seemed to do half heartily 14:39:31 ZabaQ: They're sometimes good underneath (kernel, fs, active directory and such), but the userland is on the extreme end of the useless/terrible scale. 14:39:46 ZabaQ: And the business {non}ethics... 14:39:47 Yeah. 14:39:48 are slot type declarations used at all in sbcl ? 14:39:57 xristos: at high safety settings 14:40:15 Can't use them for optimisations because of inheritance (until sealing, anyway) 14:40:25 ok 14:40:27 if anyone can advise me a better way to do this that would also be great - basically i need to build a tree via repeated expansion of these macros, and I want each 'tree-node to be initialised with a unique integer. what order they are in doesn't really matter, they just want to be unique and sequential for some ordering of the nodes, if that makes sense 14:41:02 why when i give just sbcl on the command line, i'm in disable-debuger mode? 14:41:03 malcolmreynolds: why a macro? 14:41:18 plutonas: ask your distribution's packager. 14:41:18 Does clisp still exist? The home page is 404? 14:41:31 can i force it to be in debugger mode? 14:41:52 I wanted to be able to represent trees in the DSL-type thing you see right at the bottom of the paste. I appreciate there is a reasonable chance that that can be accomplished without a macro, but I'm still very much learning cl so I wanted to see if I could do it 14:41:57 ZabaQ: the page still existed a few weeks ago 14:42:04 and the macro part of the thing works, it's just this closure I am adding now which is messing things up somehow 14:42:17 ZabaQ this one or another one http://clisp.cons.org/ 14:42:19 Ah, its still on sourceforge, but not gnu.org 14:42:32 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.131.185] has joined #lisp 14:42:50 malcolmreynolds: macros are expanded before running the code. 14:43:23 Guthur: there are real cutthroats in MS for keeping backward compatibility. If they weren't forced to keep such direct compatibility and haven't had to support what amounts to software version of military "lowest bidder product" euphemism, windows would have dealt with legacy code long ago 14:43:31 sure, but since the calls to *nid-counter* are backquoted, surely they should be executed at runtime? 14:43:31 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:43:43 Seems that gnu.org is using weblocks ? 14:43:47 ZabaQ: http://savannah.gnu.org/search/?type_of_search=soft&words=*&offset=1&max_rows=1000#results does not list CLISP anymore 14:43:54 why? why are you doing things this way? 14:44:42 pkhuong: to me it didn't seem all that ridiculous. is it? 14:45:41 pem: it certainly isn't 14:47:44 *p_l* should install zsh on his windows server, *ancient* ksh builds are not his kink 14:47:56 o. My guess is simply from "Happy hacking!". I've just tried weblocks. the demo page also shows this :-) 14:49:44 malcolmreynolds: fwiw, you're using make-tree-rec outside the dynamic scope of any binding to *nid-counter* 14:50:24 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-100-82.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 14:50:58 pkhuong: ah I see.. I thought doing a (let ...) around everything would ensure it could always see the function 14:51:17 thanks for your help. I think removing the closure and just making it a general function is probably going to be simpler for me to figure out. 14:52:13 btw, will iterating over results of (find-all-symbols ...) in all packages give me a good way to access at least *most* of lisp objects? 14:52:43 maybe it is... Your code is pretty much the lisp equivalent of spaghetti. 14:54:06 p_l: Yeah, but you need MOP for object introspection and implementation-dependent code to look into structs 14:54:18 pkhuong: i know. like I said, still learning, and often i run up against some funny scope / other kind of issue which means i end up with macros expanding into heaps of other macros, etc etc, so i end up with kind of a mess. i appreciate you taking the time. 14:55:06 tcr: I don't need introspection more than getting addresses (and possibly, sizes) of all lisp objects 14:55:42 p_l: Otherwise you'd only get the root objects 14:56:03 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 14:56:10 right 14:56:31 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-157-31.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:57:19 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:58:11 p_l: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/381954 14:59:19 On afterthough, the request for deep size was wrong in light of possibly circular object graphes 14:59:27 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 15:00:39 seems to work here, fwiw, but you're only using macros to avoid quoting the one argument to make-tree. If you really cared about the quoting, you should still use a function and a helper macro to insert the quote. 15:00:43 tcr: well, I don't need precise data on which object references which, I just need addresses of every allocated object 15:00:43 p_l: there's also sb-vm::map-allocated-objects 15:00:59 tcr: oh, nice 15:01:04 be careful with m-a-o, though, it's easy to kill an image by consing there. 15:01:16 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:01:39 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-142-165.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 15:01:44 hmm... 15:02:22 pkhuong: I'm trying to write a tool to investigate sharing between forked sbcl images 15:02:42 down to physical memory 15:02:58 is this described as pathspec #P"/home/michael/cl/systems/littleserver.lisp" 15:03:19 Guthur: (type-of #P"/home/michael/cl/systems/littleserver.lisp") 15:03:32 tenure everything to an old generation, make sure that generation never gets GCed, fork away. 15:03:58 Otherwise cheney will kill your sharing at the first major GC. 15:04:22 sharing means copy-on-write in this context? 15:04:27 right. 15:04:33 tcr: yes 15:04:40 morning 15:04:51 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:05:28 anyway, I might start with generic API to access Linux VM data 15:06:17 tcr thanks, not sure why cl-fad isn't returning just the filename :| 15:06:37 Guthur: What do you understand as "filename"? 15:06:42 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-128-20.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:06:57 a string? 15:07:44 ya in this case littleserver.lisp, but i think i may have misunderstood the functions purpose, pathname-as-file 15:09:04 i think i know now, i need to use name component 15:10:07 Guthur: There may be filesystems which allow files and subdirectories with the same name. 15:10:19 cl-fad is just to ensure platform-compatibility and i was thinking it was more functional. 15:10:25 Guthur: pathname-as-file says to interpret the pathname as a file 15:11:09 tcr: thanks, i get it now :) 15:12:09 Personally, I haven't bothered learning about the pathname system in CL, too much hassle for too little gain. (what's the past form of forego, btw?) 15:12:56 forewent. 15:13:16 forego, forewent, forgone 15:13:17 funny 15:13:42 wengo, wenwent, wengone 15:13:43 milanj [n=milan@79.101.230.134] has joined #lisp 15:13:59 But not nearly as funny as German where it'd be "he went fore" 15:14:16 -!- mfk [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has quit ["sleep"] 15:14:19 tcr filesystem transversal isn't exciting but a necessary evil unfortunately, i'm not too worried about platform independence though 15:15:24 p_l: If you need it, I have some linux ptrace stuff. 15:16:51 qbg [n=qbg@65.73.86.56] has joined #lisp 15:17:51 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:18:22 nyef: in this case it won't be needed, but it might be useful for later stuff - right now I'm implementing access to API that appeared in 2.6.25 15:18:33 Ah, okay. 15:18:46 I'm not sure if I have my ptrace stuff packaged yet. 15:18:57 nyef: it's a new thing added because even ptrace didn't give you information about real memory usage 15:19:29 ... come to think of it, I might use this tool on my firefox later 15:19:29 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:20:12 tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:20:50 -!- peddie [n=matthew@DARWINAWARD.MIT.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:22:22 Samy [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:03 Why is this the case (that it seems so difficult to get hands on real memory usage)? 15:28:33 tcr: that would depend on what you mean by "real" memory usage. most modern systems make that a very fuzzy concept 15:29:09 hmm why do my file slime tramp translations work if i paste them in a M-: buffer but not when i have them in my .emacs.el 15:29:14 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 15:29:24 in how far? Can that be summarized, or should I really read that drepper's paper about memory that I once printed to dead tree but haven't touched since? 15:29:44 HET2: somebody override them after in your ~/.emacs file. 15:30:00 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:30:11 HET2: Put them after your (slime-setup '(... slime-tramp ....)) 15:30:12 matimago: they are at the bottom of my .emacs file... 15:30:28 HET2: Did you byte-compile your ~/.emacs? 15:30:37 tcr: umm, IIRC the drepper paper doesn't actually go into that. You'd need to read up on virtual memory systems 15:31:24 merimus: But virtual memory systems are quite old, aren't they? 15:31:46 tcr: ie: the amount of memory that a process has (malloced) isn't necessarily the amount of RAM it is using. First because parts of that could be swapped to disk but also becuase some modern VM's "fake" allocations 15:31:51 tcr: not intentionally... 15:32:05 merimus: Yes that's about as much as I know 15:32:14 tcr: they have been around a long time but they keep advancing and getting more complicated 15:32:43 apparently apple got a lot of complaints when leopard came out about 64bit apps allocating 8gb VM :) ) 15:33:05 tcr: IIRC linux for example. If you malloc 100MB it assumes you won't actually use all that... so doesn't actually allocate it to the process until it writes to it. 15:33:07 alantsang [n=alantsan@pcd567174.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 15:33:36 tcr: so the amount of memory you have allocated, the RAM you are using, and the virtual memory size can all be radically different. 15:33:51 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:34:12 tcr: so the first question is ... what are you really trying to figure out? 15:34:57 jmbr [n=jmbr@guest245.gti.ssr.upm.es] has joined #lisp 15:35:23 michael__ [n=michael@wsip-70-166-141-212.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:20 what's the difference between virtual memory size and what you have allocated? 15:36:43 Overcommit? 15:36:54 tcr: depends on the system 15:37:52 tcr: it is probably 1. the same, or 2. as nyef said, the overcommit amount 15:37:53 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:41:27 Ragnaroek [i=54a6606f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7ec3baac19237b78] has joined #lisp 15:41:53 ok 15:42:07 tcr: let's say that the API on memory usage exposed by Linux is fucked up and the data you normally get is far from correct 15:42:34 is it allowed to return a function-object from a macro 15:42:34 with mm being a big black box you pray to ;-) 15:43:26 p_l: more like a big black box that will try really hard to give you what you want... but might not... and you'll never really know if it did or not 15:44:55 merimus: and that will never say what is going on :P 15:45:03 Ragnaroek: Yes, and No, sounds fishy. What are you trying to do? 15:45:05 hello, I am a lisp newbie, I have got a problem of recursive function, the following code posted on http://www.tempcode.com/gk stack overflow when n > 3300, would anyone take a look and help? Thanks. 15:45:20 p_l: no... it says "trust me... I know what I'm doing" :) 15:45:35 Ragnaroek: Yes: a macro is just a function run, basically, at compilation time. So it can return anything. 15:45:38 merimus: and then OOMs kill your work :P 15:45:52 p_l: or someone elses... ramdomly 15:46:00 how do I compile something like that 15:46:02 Ragnaroek: No: You must be caution not to have literal function objects laying in the source code that the compiler will see. It'll choke on those. 15:46:33 merimus: well, it killed my work because FF wanted more than 1.6G of "RSS" on system that had 2.5G of total virtual memory 15:46:35 so I assume there is no standard-behaviour for that 15:46:46 clhs 3.4.2 15:46:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_db.htm 15:47:10 Many objects can be used as literals, functions not (closures are difficult to serialize) 15:47:17 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit ["Politics is the entertainment branch of industry."] 15:48:28 Ragnaroek: You have to expand to code which will create the functions at load-time. 15:48:43 that's easy for named functions 15:48:57 but how to handle (function (lambda (...)) 15:49:37 your macro should expand to that form 15:49:56 `(lambda (,@args) ,@(body)) 15:51:15 so the macro-writer is responsible for that 15:51:31 for what? 15:51:52 what if someone writes: (defmacro bad () (function (lambda (...))) 15:51:55 is that allowed 15:52:16 Yes, and No. I just explained it. 15:53:27 -!- qbg [n=qbg@65.73.86.56] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:53:46 *p_l* decides to sprinkle some of the code with type and safety declarations 15:56:29 tcr: my problem was that my .emacs.el was not being interpreted completely due to a typo further above 15:56:35 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:57:20 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-168-132-106.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 15:57:54 asdf1234 [i=812131fb@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c162d69eb10fff1c] has joined #lisp 15:59:06 this is not lisp related, but meaby someone knows 15:59:18 how to similate 1000+ http request per sec 15:59:34 for stress test 15:59:44 *stassats* used ab 15:59:55 ab will do that rate quite happily 15:59:56 hmm, but 1k+ paraller connections ? 15:59:58 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-138-193-165.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:00:03 if you want massive concurrency, something else may be better 16:02:02 yes - botnet for example ;) 16:02:17 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 16:03:28 there are several stress test programs available in an average linux system for webservers. 16:03:55 effective parallelism is largely dependent on how good your network connection is. 16:04:08 milanj: perhaps use LodeRunner or LoadStorm 16:04:15 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-30-209.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:04:17 or similar 16:04:53 hmm, thanks everyone, i will test couple of sugested solution 16:05:09 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:55 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:07:02 Fade, hrm? I disagree ("how good your network connection is"). 16:07:16 Fade, there are more important factors. 16:08:00 why? network latency even on very fast netowrks is going to be a much higher overhead than process scheduler latency. 16:08:15 -!- merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has quit [] 16:08:18 assuming some nominal baseline of processor/memory. 16:09:40 on a commodore 64 network would be largely irrelevant. :) 16:09:54 -!- cracki [n=cracki@0-068.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 16:09:56 ... I just spent 10 minutes looking for a bug that turned out to be one level of parentheses too much... ^^; 16:10:49 -!- alantsang [n=alantsan@pcd567174.netvigator.com] has left #lisp 16:10:54 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 16:11:48 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-100-82.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:15:25 unga_bunga [i=42ec78fd@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7fac84187229ba36] has joined #lisp 16:16:40 SandGorgon_ [n=user@122.162.129.62] has joined #lisp 16:17:26 -!- ffx` [n=ittakest@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] 16:17:30 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.131.185] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:17:38 -!- SandGorgon_ is now known as SandGorgon 16:19:06 -!- dat [n=dthomp@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:19:41 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 16:20:14 demmeln [n=demmeln@atradig120.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 16:20:28 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@78-4.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Off to Plato's cave"] 16:22:44 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:19 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@guest245.gti.ssr.upm.es] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:24:43 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit ["Be back later"] 16:24:54 chupish [i=182ed347@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c792f6f50a6b7e88] has joined #lisp 16:25:29 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-301a7839c0d3854a] has joined #lisp 16:27:22 rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 16:32:42 saikat [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 16:33:20 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:34:32 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 16:34:43 benny99 [n=benny@p5486D9E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:57 I'm reading this: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Special-Variables.html#Special-Variables 16:37:17 and wondering: I thought that (let ...) creates a *lexical* binding. 16:37:36 But the manual say's it's dynamic, and that make-thread does not care about that. 16:37:39 you was wrong 16:38:37 I thought there was no dynamic scope in CL. Or am I mixing things completely? 16:38:53 you are mixing things 16:39:02 ok 16:39:04 dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 16:39:07 will learn up on that. 16:39:33 antoszka: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node43.html 16:41:26 This contains some seriously cool stuff: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/ftpdir/ 16:41:39 Including Thomas which seems to be an implementation of the prefix-version of Dylan 16:42:04 heh and ITS 16:42:07 There is Marlais too, which is available on SF 16:42:36 I'm not sure if Idyl supports the non-macro'd syntax, but there is that too :) 16:42:38 huh, its is under gpl, nice 16:43:00 still Goo is much better, since it's actually maintained 16:44:58 stassats: thx 16:47:07 tcr: ITS? afaik there are better sources for it :) 16:47:31 ... ITS under GPL? FUCK NO 16:47:53 still, WAITS ftw :) 16:48:10 chupish: Is there any WAITS set available anywhere? 16:48:18 I've never seen one 16:48:28 I successfully got ITS to run, so WAITS would be nice 16:48:55 i think docs about ITS are more important then being able to run ITS itself 16:49:01 Prefix dylan seems so nice 16:49:13 s/then/than/ 16:49:18 yeah, which is why I would recommend goo... 16:49:25 or RScheme, or OakLisp... 16:49:27 tcr, i.e. Lisp Dylan? 16:50:00 WAITS *would* be nice, but I don't think there is much interest in it... 16:50:30 HET3 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 16:50:35 stassats: afaik there's a much nicer archive of its stuff, without GPL tag on it 16:51:05 -!- malcolmreynolds [n=malc@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 16:51:19 do you really want to use its code? 16:51:45 chupish: Dunno it seems those have departed from Common Lisp too much to be immediately attracting 16:51:57 -!- timor [n=martin@w4568.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:52:09 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:15 well, Dylan was pretty Scheme-y to begin with 16:52:28 I still have a copy of DRM too :) 16:52:44 stassats: No, but I find that GPL tag worrisome on source that was really free :P 16:53:07 as in bear? 16:53:26 chupish: I don't know much about that chapter of Lisp history, but from glancing, it seems more like T was a predominant influence 16:53:28 stassats: as in everything for free ;-) 16:53:55 sure, T being a Scheme dialect 16:54:13 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:54:23 dylan was lisp1, right? 16:54:38 bear :)? 16:54:51 yep 16:54:57 CLOS on Scheme somewhat 16:55:12 Most bears I see are in ZOO's. Definitely non-free. 16:55:29 why do you use the past tense to refer to dylan? 16:55:32 :) 16:55:57 it's dead jim 16:56:17 don't tell the folks in #dylan. ;) 16:56:17 the only major app I can think of is NNV... 16:56:23 heh 16:56:39 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:47 chupish: what's NNV? 16:57:01 "Norwegian Society for the Conservation of Nature" ? 16:57:15 :) 16:57:16 Network Nightvision 16:57:32 http://nnv.dylan-user.org/ 16:57:50 That's the only "major app" I can think of that's written in Dylan 16:58:01 is dylan considered a lisp? 16:58:02 well, recently :) 16:58:15 Not, that there are tons in CL :) 16:58:20 *antoszka* prepares to take flak. 16:58:27 does tell that to ITA... 16:58:35 hmm, x/does/ c/don't/ 16:59:17 does ITA do tons of "major apps"? 16:59:24 The original Dylan was all reader macros... 16:59:34 well, if you work in the travel industry, yess 16:59:57 QPX, what else? 17:00:14 merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:14 well, Orbitz & the like are all based off of ITA software 17:00:33 on the QPX, as i understand 17:00:39 stassats: RES 17:00:50 Looks like a wireshark work-alike, this NNV stuff. 17:00:59 it is 17:01:06 sellout: is that for reservations? 17:01:09 stassats: and it depends how you measure "tons" ... number of apps, or weight of printed source. 17:01:19 stassats: Good guess :) 17:01:25 well, I meant volume of transactions really.. 17:01:38 stassats: http://itasoftware.com/solutions/res.html 17:01:39 still, Fare would be able to answer that better than I 17:01:52 antoszka: There's a smiliar one written in CL: http://www.dist-systems.bbn.com/tech/spyglass/ 17:02:20 well, NNV has a binary description macro language that makes it reasonable cool, but it's somewhat dead in the water too 17:02:23 Webpage somewhat deadish. 17:02:35 Or laggish. It did open finally. 17:03:03 tcr: But that is not open-sauce stuff (from what I've looked a while ago). 17:03:12 unfortunately not 17:03:32 Yeah. 17:03:46 well, it is BBN... 17:03:52 What's the GUI toolkit they use? Can you tell by the screenshots? 17:04:16 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit ["time to go home"] 17:04:19 CLIM is what the page says 17:04:28 Widgets look like {mo,less}tif. 17:04:37 but that page looks Motif-y 17:04:46 probably OpenWindows or CDE 17:04:49 Does CLIM use motif underneath? 17:05:02 on Sun Servers, especially old ones, sounds reasonable 17:05:08 it has different tk backends. 17:05:11 Aha. 17:05:15 no, clim doesn't use anything 17:05:34 "need not" 17:05:44 certain CLIM implementations used Motfi 17:05:47 *Motif 17:05:48 right 17:05:59 like LispWorks, and I'm pretty sure ACL too 17:06:08 -!- benny99 [n=benny@p5486D9E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:06:15 and I would presume one that is described to work on "Sun Servers" would use Motif :) 17:06:35 well, LispWorks uses CAPI to give a native look & feel iirc... 17:06:59 chupish: on unix side, LW CLIM uses Motif, at least that's what I got from their docs 17:07:02 and capi uses motif on linux 17:07:09 and quite possibly capi uses motif as well ;P 17:07:10 I hate motif. every time I see a motif application I feel like i've been sent back to 1989. 17:07:16 p_l: Do the others just talk the X-protocol directly? 17:07:38 (on the X platform, anyway) 17:07:59 mcclim by default uses X 17:08:06 Are there any other important implementation of CLIM other than MCL, LW, ACL and McCLIM? 17:08:17 I actually picked up a book on 3d programming from 1988 the other day; the CL apps in there were talking about adding colour soon... ^_^ 17:08:29 of those four, McCLIM has direct X11 support through CLX 17:08:30 p_l: genera? 17:09:17 right. It didn't use X11, though :P 17:09:26 mmm, shading triangles by hand :) 17:09:43 interesting book though, none-the-less 17:09:52 chupish: that's probably because texturing unit was expensive addon to 3d workstations :P 17:09:53 http://www.cliki.net/features says Symbolics Genera 8.3 (:POSTSCRIPT-CLIM :CLX-CLIM 17:10:25 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-183.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:28 stassats: interesting. I know that Genera talked X11, but I was under impression that it implemented a window as a display device.... 17:10:31 hey, those dozen or so people still using Genera should be included! 17:10:54 p_l: i guess it has different backends 17:11:34 asksol [n=ask@114.242.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:11:35 ... someone got graphical representation of (byte x y) syntax? 17:11:39 slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-177-6.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:12:29 hmm, I wonder if Genera would run on a PWS... 17:12:39 not that I have a copy, though Symbolics still sells it iirc 17:12:48 man, you guys love that pws 17:12:59 What was that thing about a genera image floating around the net for x64 linux machines? 17:13:04 p_l: what do you mean? 17:13:10 Remember reading some vague mention, but could never find it. 17:13:12 I have two, plus an alphaserver 2100 17:13:22 Genera does run on x86_64 linux 17:13:28 I've got an alpha downstairs 17:13:37 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 17:13:56 have a copy of vms for it somewhere also 17:14:05 antoszka: there's iso image of Genera 8.5 for DEC OSF/1 on TPB (apparently symbolics-sanctioned in a sarcastic way :P) and you can find snap4 microcode that runs on x86-64 17:14:20 p_l: Aha. 17:14:22 chupish: unfortunately it's a little crash-y 17:14:29 I'm sure 17:14:56 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-12-148.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:15:01 chupish: kill -9 is my friend in shutting it down, and I have yet to see properly working save world 17:15:16 well, one PWS runs 7.3, but I'm still waiting for my 8.3 discs from the Hobbyist system... 17:15:36 chupish: there's 8.3 iso on TPB, quite complete 17:15:41 i remember it working a year ago, but when i tried it later, it didn't work 17:15:46 well, 8.2, unless 8.3 goes hobbyist by the time I get it.. 17:15:48 8.3 VMS 17:15:59 chupish: and since you have hobbyist license, it will work (tested) 17:16:16 yes, VMS 8.3 for Alpha :) 17:16:17 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-9-231.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:16:36 I have 7.3 for VAX as well 17:16:39 ``Erik_ [n=erik@ftp.brlcad.org] has joined #lisp 17:16:46 I dropped my vaxen long ago 17:16:53 as well as a microPDP 17:17:06 chupish: I run it on emulator, as my alpha is too far away from me and memory starved 17:17:10 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:17:17 unfortunately, alpha emulators are quite picky :P 17:17:24 I want to do some big hpc work someday 17:17:51 I don't think Alphas are the arch for that anymore... 17:18:06 no, deff not 17:18:26 HPC seems tricky now 17:18:32 look at how SiCortex ended 17:18:39 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-12-13.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:18:50 ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:53 I just want to write the code 17:19:12 yeah, it is interesting 17:19:16 -!- ``Erik_ [n=erik@ftp.brlcad.org] has quit [Client Quit] 17:19:37 I was thinking about wire-wrapping a bit slice arch out of Z80a's... 17:19:37 -!- reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:19:42 jmbr [n=jmbr@20.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:19:45 I've got a bit of code with does a 10k particle nbody in realtime 17:19:48 but I've not the time to design in, unfortunately... 17:20:01 *p_l* tries to learn CPU design and make one in FPGA 17:20:24 yeah, but I've something like 40+ Z80a's lying around... 17:20:44 z80 for hpc? 17:20:47 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:20:55 well, there was ZMOB back in the day 17:21:02 chupish: make a microcoded LispM cpu with multiple pipelines made of Z80s :P 17:21:11 but I was thinking of using bit-slicing for implementing a large-ish arch 17:21:27 1 MHZ LISP! 17:21:55 chupish: or implement PDP-10 :D 17:22:08 yeah, so we could get our Lisp 1.5 back! 17:22:38 last time I checked, there was even a httpd written in Maclisp... 17:22:43 adding some lisp efficient codes to the openalpha project at opencores would be nice. ;) 17:23:00 or implement a time machine, so we could get Lisp 1.5 back 17:23:10 Fade: just please put them as hw-accelerated PALcalls 17:23:33 i want to run VMS on it :D 17:23:34 why, you should be able to run it now atop simh 17:23:48 heh 17:24:07 I let vms go in ancient times; now I just mourn the alpha. 17:24:38 afk - some shopping 17:24:39 yeah, I'm getting there; I used to use one PWS as a server for all my code, but I've moved on 17:25:01 now I use only top of the line SGI O2s for my main desktop :) 17:25:20 I have an r12k O2, but it's useless now. 17:25:34 I hate irix and you can't even get netbsd booted on the damn things, let alone linux. 17:25:43 I have to R5k O2s, one that I actually do use for a desktop 17:25:50 OpenBSD now has X fwiw 17:26:07 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:26:15 there are dma issues with mips > r10k 17:26:21 HET4 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 17:26:25 yep 17:26:28 I loved working on the Onyx2's 17:26:34 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:26:37 incredible what they could do 17:26:55 I have an original 6' tall Onyx box, but no DC rail to power it. 17:27:21 how do I slow all symbols in a package? 17:27:31 my SGI collection is just the two O2s, an indy & an iris 17:28:21 i have an O2, an OctaneII and an Onyx. 17:28:27 clhs d-a-s 17:29:00 clhs do-symbols 17:29:00 DO-ALL-SYMBOLS: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_sym.htm 17:29:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_sym.htm 17:29:21 I'd like to get a Tezro or a Fuel, but I've not the USDs for it really 17:29:27 they still run irix fine, but irix is ass. 17:29:52 dunno, never really had a problem with it, other than when I wanted to write some C using standard POSIX :) 17:30:10 or bring over software directly from SF or elsewhere 17:30:59 Lectus [n=Lectus@189.105.50.149] has joined #lisp 17:32:40 I worked with a lot of fuel and tezro stuff when I was working in the visual fx industry. 17:32:46 nice hardware. 17:33:13 yeah, which is why I wouldn't mind one or the other 17:33:15 :) 17:33:25 what I want is an Origin 2000 17:33:38 There are some for short sale on Craig's List, but they are usually either too far or want too much USD for them 17:33:54 but above all, I want a DEC/HP wildfire box, but the people who have them aren't letting them go. 17:34:13 I wonder why :) 17:34:23 heh 17:34:42 mostly because they were sold to three letter agencies in the united states. lol 17:34:42 huh, a rack mounted SGI origin is a mere 317 kg... 17:34:56 I'd say; isn't that how it normally works 17:35:10 although I will say that I found some testing coldfires from the army on ebay once 17:35:58 not that a embedded CPU running at 40 mHz is anything, but still :) 17:36:15 MORE LISP 17:36:30 I wanted to port Lisp to coldfire? :) 17:37:04 a wildfire would make a great host for a lispOS with connection machine lisp extentions. 17:37:20 StarLisp a top that would be interesting... 17:37:38 xappings all around. 17:38:43 have you ever used a CM? 17:38:50 I've only seen on at the Crypto Musem 17:38:54 Museum even 17:39:06 There is StarLisp for other platforms iirc 17:39:34 well, CM ported to the supersparc which had support for tagged memory, iirc. 17:39:50 ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@87.115.20.62.plusnet.pcl-ag01.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:05 the only living CM I've ever seen was in the movie Jurassaic Park. 17:40:29 heh 17:40:35 -!- HET3 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:40:35 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:40:37 i dunno which one it was 17:40:48 the one at the crypto museum is Frostburg, which was an NSA box. 17:41:04 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 17:41:06 hello 17:41:33 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:57 yep, Frostburg was the one I saw, and the only one really 17:42:19 I just updated sbcl from the git repo and build on an ubuntu jaunty machine. But, I get errors when loading unicode files. 17:42:28 Is this a known problem of jaunty? 17:42:40 what is your locale set to? 17:42:50 de_DE.UTF-8 17:43:24 not sure. i thought sbcl builds unicode support by default. 17:43:41 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 17:43:46 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:43:57 Fade: yes, that's what worked for me all the time. And it worked some days ago on ubuntu hardy 17:44:17 I suspect jaunty to be somehow different 17:44:46 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:48 i'm on an intrepid box, and utf works for me. 17:45:07 the last image I built was 1.0.29 a few days ago. 17:45:13 Right... Anyone gotten cl-smoke to work on Ubuntu 9.04 x86_64 in combination with sbcl through clbuild? 17:45:40 kami-: what is sb-impl::*default-external-format* ? 17:45:44 I get errors about symbols not found, like: "Symbol "UI-LOADER" not found in the QT.UITOOLS package" 17:46:12 thijso: you're trying to work with commonqt? 17:46:13 Is this because I have ubuntu dev packages for qt and smoke? Should I get the sources for those? 17:46:22 Fade: nope, looking cl-smoke now 17:46:35 Fade: cl-smoke and commonqt are different projects 17:46:35 stassats: wait 17:46:39 the *other* qt4 lisp thingy 17:46:42 i believe the build instructions for commonqt indicate that you should load the support libs from source. 17:46:51 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 17:46:55 commonqt depends on smoke, no? 17:47:03 it does 17:47:06 so does cl-smoke 17:47:21 Right, so I'll try that when I'm back from dinner... 17:47:29 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-41c076a510f878c1] has joined #lisp 17:48:08 stassats: build is still running. Will try afterwards. 17:48:45 pitui` [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has joined #lisp 17:50:30 asksol_ [n=ask@114.242.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:50:45 although for commonqt it isn't true by the way... I have that working with the dev packages for qt and smoke on ubuntu 17:51:28 and now dinner... 17:53:36 Fade: http://examples.franz.com/index.html has a StarLisp sim btw 17:53:58 nice. I wasn't aware of that. 17:54:22 how does it perform without a CM? 17:54:26 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:55:17 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-199-182-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 17:56:39 stassats: better than a CM, most likely. 17:56:57 it's a "Simulator" for one... 17:57:21 pkhuong: on a modern hardware? 17:57:41 well, I'm going to try it out now... 17:58:02 warning Zipbomb there 17:58:05 stassats: right. 17:59:02 it's public domain too... 18:00:10 did *Lisp have qlet? or it was some other lisp? 18:00:14 borism__ [n=boris@195-50-197-51-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 18:00:20 HG` [n=wells@xdslez035.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:00:30 milanj- [n=milan@93.86.57.115] has joined #lisp 18:00:46 qlet sounds like a lisp with futures. 18:00:58 that was qlisp 18:01:08 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-182-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:52 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-12-148.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:02:48 RamzaB [n=lobomonh@ip72-197-207-250.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:58 what book is good for learning Lisp? 18:03:08 minion: tell RamzaB about pcl 18:03:10 RamzaB: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 18:03:35 Nalia [n=nalia@ip-83-134-142-52.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #lisp 18:04:37 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-199-182-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:05:08 -!- Nalia [n=nalia@ip-83-134-142-52.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:05:14 borism [n=boris@195-50-197-51-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 18:05:35 minion: fetch me a drink 18:05:40 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 18:06:09 minion: sudo fetch me a drink 18:06:16 minion: sudo fetch me a drink 18:06:16 Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 37 seconds is too many. 18:06:22 :o 18:06:29 dcrawford: you must not be in sudoers 18:06:46 Do you put helper functions below or above the function it's used? I tend to put them below because you typically read top-to-bottom. 18:07:06 tcr: i put them below. i find them less obscuring that way 18:07:22 wow Lisp is weird, you dont have to explicitly tell what type the variable is and there's no return statement in a function? 18:07:32 RamzaB: nope 18:07:33 yes 18:07:41 values have types... variables don't :) 18:07:41 I put them above for (declaim inline) ;) 18:08:05 a rose by any other variable is still a rose 18:08:07 RamzaB: functions return the value of the last form 18:08:17 oh ok thanks 18:08:26 I tend to fall into definition-use pattern both because it works for macros and defvars and so on and on the principle of "introduce your terms, then use tnem" 18:08:27 merimus: Actually, you could argue that DECLARE TYPE declares the type of the variable to be "holds X", for whatever type X. 18:08:28 pkhuong: Right that would be my next questions if there was anything SBCL would figure out when putting them below. 18:08:43 pkhuong: Luckily it seems to do arg-count checking just fine even when put below 18:08:58 nyef: yea but that's just not lispish :P 18:09:03 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.230.134] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:09:07 The file/block compiler isn't particularly smart. 18:09:07 -!- saikat [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 18:09:09 what's the syntax to create an array in Lisp? 18:09:14 merimus: I fail to see how not. 18:09:16 clhs make-array 18:09:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm 18:09:19 thanks 18:09:21 RamzaB: read a book. 18:09:23 RamzaB: really, read that book 18:09:26 -!- borism__ [n=boris@195-50-197-51-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:09:35 minion tell RamzaB about that-dead-sexy-book 18:09:52 minion: tell RamzaB about that-dead-sexy-book 18:09:52 RamzaB: please see that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 18:09:53 minion already did 18:10:36 *dcrawford* top of scroll page was under other windows (xchat on below-all-windows) >_> <_< 18:10:57 pkhuong: I think I once read that the block compiler was dumbed down on the departure from cmucl for simplicity reasons. Do you know specifics? 18:11:28 dys [n=andreas@p5B3158C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:49 stassats: my *default-external-format* is ANSI_X3.4-1968 18:11:59 kami-: here is your problem 18:12:11 kpreid: I tend to see it like Interface first, then implementation. Variables, macros, and exported functions belong to the interface part, helper functions to the implementation part 18:12:32 stassats: what do I have to specify ? 18:12:33 kami-: your LANG or LC_CTYPE should be some utf-8 locale 18:12:54 Every time the block compiler does anything that compiling each TLF separately doesn't, I'm surprised ;) There seems to be a a couple static analyses, but nothing that takes advantage of type inference for example. 18:13:10 stassats: aaah. the build I just made was with LANG=C _because_ of the problem I had, before. 18:13:16 does anyone have sbcl binary that works on tiger? 18:13:37 kami-: the build doesn't matter 18:13:46 pkhuong: Yeah iirc the arg count checking is explicitly deferred to the end of the compilation unit and has nothing to do with block compiling 18:13:46 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-206-141.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:57 stassats: OK. I'll try with de_DE.UTF-8 18:14:29 xristos: that's 10.3? 18:14:35 10.4 18:14:43 10.4 should just work. 18:14:53 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 18:15:28 stassats: *d-e-f* is now UTF-8 (with LANG=de_DE.UTF-8) 18:15:28 ok 18:17:15 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:18:10 saikat [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 18:18:37 -!- saikat [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Client Quit] 18:18:50 -!- ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@87.115.20.62.plusnet.pcl-ag01.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:19:05 can a list in Lisp have elements of different types? like int, string and a bool? 18:19:16 yes 18:19:19 ok cool 18:20:00 (list 'a "b" 32) 18:20:09 stassats: thank you. I think I might have had a similar effect when I tried to load the utf-8 file, previously. 18:20:22 dynamic languages are really weird 18:20:23 now, it seems to work 18:20:34 RamzaB: you think they are 18:20:38 but they aren't 18:20:46 bye 18:20:50 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:23:32 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:23:37 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:30:27 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.129.62] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:31:02 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-146-220.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:31:18 phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 18:34:33 -!- mega1 [n=mega@pool-0106c.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:37:25 saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 18:40:23 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-111.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:40:57 -!- dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:40:59 astalla [n=astalla@93-36-226-154.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 18:43:56 -!- demmeln [n=demmeln@atradig120.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:45:11 -!- merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:49:21 how can i convince princ to print a newline 18:49:42 don't use princ. 18:49:46 (progn (princ 10) (terpri)) 18:49:48 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:50:32 pkhuong: what else should i use 18:50:44 (format t "~a~%" 10) 18:50:45 format 18:50:48 or print. 18:51:34 format is slow 18:52:01 compared to what? At doing what? 18:52:05 -!- chupish [i=182ed347@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c792f6f50a6b7e88] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 18:52:12 sorry i need to leave :/ 18:52:16 -!- HET4 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:53:21 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:23 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:42 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 18:56:50 hi Fare 18:56:57 -!- RamzaB [n=lobomonh@ip72-197-207-250.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 19:05:32 Can anyone give me a recommendation for a lib for doing SQL db access? 19:06:10 Ralith: postmodern if you're using postgres, otherwise clsql 19:06:23 not cl-rdbms? 19:08:04 that too 19:08:07 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-99-29.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 19:08:16 that's not a recommendation, that's an exhaustive list -_- 19:09:26 -!- Guest45007 is now known as pragma_ 19:11:10 Ralith: I'd rather use postmodern than anything else 19:11:20 but I was already fond of postgresql 19:13:39 I kind of like the idea of not depending upon a full size system-installed database 19:13:47 i.e. I'd like to use sqlite, so postmodern won't work. 19:15:12 so unless there's some other libs I missed, it's clsql versus cl-rdbms 19:15:56 Ralith: Well, there's this big difference in capabilities between sqlite and postgres... 19:16:50 p_l: all I really want is full text searching for IRC logs. I'm open to suggestions. 19:17:00 tokyo dystopia? 19:17:01 squite's fts has served me reasonably well in the past. 19:17:04 huh? 19:17:20 haven't really finished that library, but it's directly made for full text search 19:17:31 oo! 19:17:38 is it usable despite being unfinished? 19:18:04 Ralith: You might have to learn a bit about FFI. I know that the tokyocabinet part works, haven't yet tested dystopia 19:18:43 not to mention that there's no lisp api yet, ony binding to C functions... 19:18:48 ...ah. 19:19:19 how much work might a FFI wrapper be, taking into account my inexperience? 19:19:31 Ralith: I welcome you to try. FFI is an important skill to learn and it's not that hard of a library (no C++ etc.) 19:19:58 alright, I'll give it a go. One question, though: 19:20:17 ? 19:20:47 http://github.com/unya/cl-tc/tree/master <--- git repo 19:20:50 *stassats* haven't learned FFI yet, because he forgot everything about C 19:21:11 my biggest problem with sqlite was returning a random row from the set of matching rows; this could be very slow because I had more than a million rows. How well could a system using this lib handle that? 19:21:25 *p_l* notices that he should have chosen a less spicy sandwich to buy 19:22:08 Ralith: well, it's used to power a big social network in japan 19:22:30 lots of SQL dbs do big things, too. Selecting a random result from a large set isn't a common need. 19:22:41 (they use Perl for implementation, though) 19:22:47 but I find it's very popular in an IRC bot, which is what I'm working towards. 19:23:03 hmmm 19:23:32 Ralith: what exactly are you trying to do? 19:24:18 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1DF97.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:24 return a randomly selected IRC log line from those matching a given query 19:24:57 it works okay when queries are complex, but every now and then in my current impl I've had people query things like 'and' and the database gets locked up for a minute or so. 19:25:05 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.129.62] has joined #lisp 19:25:25 -!- phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:25:35 hmm... I think I'd go with postmodern + stored procedures, actually 19:25:43 and blacklist of common words :D 19:25:46 -!- pragma_ is now known as zxcbert 19:26:00 seems like the blacklist would make nearly any solution technically functional. 19:26:51 well, with large enough db, such blacklists are necessary. Imagine googling for "and" 19:27:09 fair, google does strip those I guess 19:27:20 ...except 19:27:23 you can google for and >_> 19:27:24 -!- zxcbert is now known as pragma_ 19:28:02 Ralith: afaik it strips "and" unless it's the only part of query 19:28:10 yeah, iirc it does. 19:28:28 or more like it does some more advanced wizardry 19:28:30 but in my case, if the query is multiword it's already complex enough 19:28:54 I guess I could just require at least two words, but that would be kind of annoying. 19:29:03 a blacklist is a pretty inelegant solution. 19:29:49 -!- piksi [i=piksi@pi-xi.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:30:03 well, I'm feeling like near my physical limits... 19:31:45 antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:32:10 it doesn't seem like it should be a serious challenge 19:32:18 I mean, with sqlite, the big slowdown wasn't the full text search 19:32:23 it was the selecting a random line 19:32:43 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:32:46 'cuz did it by assigning a random number to each line then sorting by that number 19:33:09 I *know* there's faster ways to do it than that, sqlite was just kind of limiting--and I suspect another SQL db would be the same. 19:33:13 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:34:24 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@ti132110a340-3137.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:34:33 *p_l* is simply too tired to think logically enough 19:35:14 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:01 I mean, if tokyo dystopia is reasonably fast at searching, might it not be practical to just assemble the results into a list and select a random list entry? 19:36:47 you mean a vector, surely. 19:36:58 a set datatype. 19:37:16 cl lists are linked lists, right? I guess that wouldn't be appropriate. 19:37:34 chupish [i=182ed347@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ffa51ef1e1b89e49] has joined #lisp 19:38:17 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 19:38:51 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 19:39:10 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:42:03 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:06 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:43:07 Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:30 p_l: you there man? 19:44:12 hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.100] has joined #lisp 19:44:31 stassats: you there bud? 19:45:25 hmm, yes.. 19:46:20 http://195.43.248.109/~hypno/httpd.lisp, that was surprisingly quick and fast hack.. 35 LOC. 5000 req/s, weee. ;) 19:46:46 p_l: was talking about .emacs yesterday did he set it up properly? 19:47:13 hypno: out of curiosity, how do you measure that? 19:47:20 -!- antoszka_ is now known as antoszka 19:47:27 ab? 19:47:52 ab 19:47:54 ? 19:48:13 apache benchmarking tool 19:48:19 -!- unga_bunga [i=42ec78fd@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7fac84187229ba36] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 19:48:39 hefner: just a stupid ab, so i guess it doesn't say much. what /is/ cool though is that it just sits there in it's own thread, /rock-solid/ 12mb of ram or so, and just spits out requests without much of a decrease from using ffi. :D 19:48:57 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.129.62] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:49:10 i got around 6500req/sec with -c 240 -n 100000 :) 19:50:36 that's not full HTTP, right? 19:51:14 With all due respect to the slime/emacs bunch, I have the impression that vim does a better job on syntax coloring of lisp source files. 19:51:19 Bigshot_: Unfortunately I doubt I'll be of much help today. I really need to finally go to sleep 19:51:34 stassats: well, it is, but the dynamic part is just a few bytes (the request string). 19:51:37 have a good sleep man you work hard ;-) 19:51:44 Are there any alternative syntax colouring definitions for emacs, that do a better job then the default? 19:51:55 s/then/than/ 19:52:00 antoszka: how do you define 'better'? 19:52:07 what more do you want? 19:52:19 more flashy and fancy? 19:52:27 more colorful? 19:52:34 I'll show you. 19:52:36 with unicorns and rainbows 19:52:38 perhaps ? 19:52:46 *stassats* is ok even without colouring, indentation is the key 19:52:53 ^ 19:52:59 hefner: what no pixie dust? :) 19:53:04 string coloring is nice 19:53:31 beyond that, things like highlighting matched parens is much mor eimportant 19:54:02 color comments is nice. I wouldn't mind if it colored every symbol in the function position too, except that it's too stupid to figure that out. 19:54:02 I like colouring of function at beginnings of forms. 19:54:09 Which vim seems to do better. 19:54:15 http://dom.grzymala.info/vim.png 19:54:17 http://dom.grzymala.info/emacs.png 19:54:37 hefner: unicorns and rainbows? where's my non-euclidean geometry... 19:55:02 antoszka: what's the difference? 19:55:06 antoszka: that looks to me like it just randomly chose to color a few more things yellow 19:55:19 lol 19:55:26 Mmmmm, yellow 19:55:42 does anyone taste blue? 19:55:54 antoszka: There are many color themes available for emacs 19:56:05 I like blue for non:cl functions: http://nekthuth.com/hilite2.png 19:56:58 mmm, fruit salad. 19:58:07 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:27 http://stassats.dyndns.org/img/climacs.png 19:59:19 are we competing to show off the ugliest color scheme? 20:00:00 hefner: Yes? 20:00:05 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.168.12] has quit ["Log this!"] 20:00:16 Here, let me get the full scope of my ugliness, one moment. 20:01:11 stassats: what WM is that? 20:01:17 ion3 20:01:54 stassats: Ever try wmii? 20:02:08 stumpwm is the true wm of the lisper 20:02:08 no, i'm too lazy 20:02:16 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 20:02:25 or i3, or aewm, or evilwm, or stumpwm, or ratpoison, or awesome, or, or, or... -_- 20:02:30 *stassats* has an uncofigured stumpwm on the desktop 20:02:41 it's funny that you all are talking about color schemes. I just spent a day and a half getting the color to be correct for fonts in my opengl window. :\ 20:02:44 chupish: dwm 20:02:45 too lazy to configure 20:03:11 antoszka: covered in or, or, or... 20:03:23 YATWM 20:03:27 heh 20:03:40 seejay_ [n=seejay@202.69.200.5] has joined #lisp 20:03:50 dwm really took it too far for me. 20:04:00 xmonad! 20:04:06 A dwm clone. 20:04:07 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:04:16 what, you don't want to recompile every time you need a keybinding change? 20:04:21 scwm! 20:04:23 windows! 20:04:25 chupish: Believe it or not! 20:04:26 OSX! 20:04:27 -!- seejay_ is now known as seejay 20:04:32 herbieB: Actually, it's the first one that truly does not get in my way. 20:04:34 RiscOS! 20:04:42 haiku! 20:04:46 Workbench! 20:04:53 PWB 20:04:59 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:06:18 so I'm kindasorta interested in climacs but it seems like a single-purpose lisp editor 20:06:37 it has C and Java colouring 20:06:50 no LaTeX or D. 20:07:04 you can be the one to make it 20:07:04 although the latter is probably a trival tweak to java 20:07:11 ... if wer are pimping WMs, why not just say Dynamic Windows and be done? 20:07:14 hmm. 20:07:16 p_l: wat 20:07:29 stassats: hell, I'll give it a try. 20:07:29 dynamic windows! 20:07:32 done. 20:07:39 stassats: does it support slime or similar? 20:07:51 manic12: thank you :) 20:08:01 -!- pierre- [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has left #lisp 20:08:20 Ralith: climacs is running inside a lisp already, but it uses swank for some introspection and the like 20:08:26 afaik 20:08:37 what, no hemlock? 20:08:45 good point there. 20:09:01 and there is also clim listener 20:09:09 it's the stuff slime does like argument help in the minibuffer that I really like though 20:09:17 so combined it ultimately should be like slime 20:10:39 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Listener.png 20:10:59 ooh, fancy! 20:12:33 looks a helluva lot better than mine 20:13:19 wow, that was a quick cvs checkout 20:14:05 lispm [n=joswig@e177151133.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:15:10 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177151133.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:15:35 lispm [n=joswig@e177151133.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:17:00 terrible font. ouch. 20:17:50 i had some trouble with fonts back then, now it's different, but still terrible 20:18:01 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 20:18:06 tried mcclim-freetype? 20:18:19 -!- saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:39 it really should Just Work, provided you have vera or dejavu fonts somewhere it can find them. 20:18:50 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a6606f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7ec3baac19237b78] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 20:19:01 tried, but i'm not really using it a lot to care 20:19:45 it's actually faster than using the old x11 fonts now, too. 20:20:01 manic12: dont you use glBlendColor ? 20:20:04 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.177] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:20:11 no 20:20:18 glBlendFunc 20:21:18 vedm [n=vedm@80-219-241-144.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:21:34 it works now, and I'm fairly confident i've done the textures & blending correctly 20:21:36 climacs takes a surprisingly long time to compile 20:22:19 manic12: so did you figure out how to do caching for output? 20:22:28 it's mcclim+clx+climacs, and sbcl's compiler is not very fast 20:22:47 I'm using npot textures as lines 20:23:08 separate texture for each line ? 20:23:09 gragh. 20:23:19 *tcr* wishes for some tool to help comparing disassemble outputs 20:23:20 it doesn't even have autocompletion for Find File 20:23:29 you should check out the packing idea that the guy in that link i have you implemented 20:23:34 it does, but it's not great 20:23:35 yeah, but I'm recycling them (the texture names) 20:23:37 you use as few textures as possible 20:23:50 xristos: i did code that all into lisp 20:23:53 by packing your pixmaps/fonts inside them and using tex coordinates to blit them 20:24:22 turned out that rendering a quad for each char was about as slow as just rendering a bitmap 20:24:23 stassats: if it does, it's not working *at all* 20:24:30 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:32 no man 20:24:46 oh wait, there's some 20:24:51 it only autocompletes filenames? 20:24:55 so I use his for user input and then for history, I just make the whole line a texture 20:24:56 i can render 40k glyphs at 60fps 20:25:13 if i cache lines, i get into hundreds of thousands 20:25:53 it depends on the hardware too 20:26:09 i'm using a quadro fx 4600 20:26:09 Am I just stupid or is it not straightforward how to find the source repository/website/tarball for installing libsmokeqt? 20:26:31 i work on a gma950 and geforce8600 20:26:39 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-144.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:26:49 so i pretty much have to do every trick possible 20:26:58 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:27:40 It seems to be a particularly bad idea to break into DISASSEMBLE-SEGMENT 20:27:41 it was significantly faster at rendering when I render 80 quads as lines instead of 8000 little quads 20:27:42 makes my sbcl hang 20:28:22 manic12: of course 20:29:07 but i did implement that texture packing program 20:29:08 all these glvertex/gltexcoord calls add up 20:29:28 its going to be faster yet if instead of 80 textures you have 2 20:29:31 how is lispworks different from slime (very complex thing to install) :( 20:30:24 Bigshot_: for one thing lispworks works 20:30:25 dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 20:30:37 yeah, i should have two textures the size of the window and render into those 20:30:43 i dont really like it, but it works 20:30:51 xristos: what do you use? 20:31:04 don't tell me slime :P 20:31:06 i'm trying to get away from slime 20:31:14 by doing my own thing 20:31:15 good to hear that 20:31:34 what would you like me to use xristos? 20:31:44 i want code completion too 20:31:47 i don't have the basis on this program yet for maximum extensibility 20:31:50 whatever you feel like using 20:31:56 Bigshot_: you are probably easiest of with lw or acl if you just want to learn cl 20:32:00 On Macs you can use Clozure CL 20:32:30 LispWorks is commercial, SLIME is free 20:32:30 lw -> lispworks? 20:32:40 Bigshot_: yes. 20:32:40 apples and oranges 20:32:51 LispWorks IDE works with LispWorks, the CL implementation 20:32:51 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:05 SLIME works with different Lisps 20:33:14 slime works with lw 20:33:29 let me guess xristos uses CLimacs/McCLIM ? 20:33:46 haha 20:34:02 i'm not in the madhouse yet 20:34:02 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 20:34:16 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:29 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:34:32 drewc was using climacs for awhile. 20:34:36 i use slime/emacs, ccl ide and my own thing on opengl 20:34:42 I guess he ran intoa problem with the listener, though. 20:35:05 xristos: you are /also/ working on a CL/GL GUI?! 20:35:08 Bigshot_: What's your problem with slime? 20:35:20 well, i can't find .emacs file tcr 20:35:28 hypno: correct 20:35:50 hypno: are you? 20:35:59 xristos: any screenshots? 20:36:02 Bigshot_: http://phil.nullable.eu/ 20:36:16 hefner: officially, no. ;) 20:36:17 manic has some old videos 20:36:31 i dunno where they are right now 20:36:39 i will release my current stuff when i feel its ready 20:36:41 tcr: does it have code completion? 20:36:45 xristos: oh, darn. so you bet me to it. even with movies. :((( 20:37:30 isn't this wrong!!? Is ABLE compatible with any other compilers? (shouldn't it be "interpreter" instead?) 20:37:33 hypno: the more the merrier 20:37:58 Bigshot_: Why? 20:38:14 it says compiler instead of interpreter 20:38:15 hypno, so what is the purpose of your cl/gl hacking? 20:38:19 Bigshot_: There have been compilers for Lisp since the 60s 20:38:27 no point in racing, it isn't like people haven't done this before. 20:38:33 (whatever "this" might be, heh) 20:38:39 Bigshot_: And regarding code completion, read the page 20:38:42 tcr: lately slime keeps deadlocking emacs when i use multiple connections to multiple lisp processes 20:38:52 even with 2 different connections 20:38:56 Bigshot: both CCL and SBCL compile everything by default 20:39:02 any hints on how i can pinpoint whats wrong 20:39:04 Bigshot: to native code 20:39:05 manic12: i wanted to create an interactive graphical environment for lisp and sysadmin tasks etc. remote unix/cl support, and filesystems, etc. 20:39:06 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:39:12 xristos: on sbcl? 20:39:15 yes 20:39:19 hypno: cool 20:39:30 xristos: what's "deadlocking" emacs? 20:39:31 manic12: i think i'm pretty much walking the path the Smalltalkers has laid out. 20:39:40 tcr: non-responsive emacs i have to kill it 20:39:49 xristos: but the lisp processes run fine? 20:39:50 *stassats* is using multiply lisp processes most of the time 20:40:13 i can interrupt the lisp procss 20:40:18 but emacs stays frozen 20:40:25 interrupt from the terminal 20:40:33 C-g doesn't help? 20:40:46 no emacs is completely unresponsive 20:40:46 hypno: that sounds fun 20:41:04 i'm used to hacking algorithms from textbooks into code, the "inventing a gui" thing I'm finding difficult 20:41:05 i will make a test case 20:41:07 many C-g's? 20:41:09 xristos: What's your changelog date? 20:41:17 i cvs updated today 20:41:40 thats on osx 10.5/sbcl .28/threads 20:42:06 Ralith: it is. with CCL and it's excellent FFI stuff it's even /addictive/. consider thyself warned. :) 20:42:10 You're on OSX and you're using SBCL threads? Isn't that already dangerous? 20:42:24 nyef: experimental != dangerous 20:42:33 hypno: addictive? I thought you were just planning. 20:42:41 xristos: you can set swank:*log-events* to T which should output swank debugging stuff to your terminal 20:42:41 ABLE looks quite nice. 20:42:46 xristos: True, but known-broken-threading == dangerous. 20:43:00 *hefner* has gotten in the bad habit of relying heavily on threading lately 20:43:03 but why should broken threading make emacs hang? 20:43:19 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:43:27 xristos: You may then be able to see what was the last event before the hanging 20:43:41 ok i'll let you know 20:44:06 I should attempt to boot my xl and see if i can get the dynamic windows listener sources off of it, even though that would be a huge can of worms 20:44:08 Ralith: nah, i've been busy writing keyboard and mouse handlers, gl examples and whatnot the last week. 20:44:12 nyef: I'm not convinced that ccl's threads don't suffer from similar problems, but I think their test suite isn't as pathological 20:44:44 slyrus_: i've hit threading bugs on ccl 20:45:00 so its not infallible 20:45:20 gbyers being quick to act helps 20:45:42 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:03 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [] 20:49:47 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 20:50:08 question for web people: would you recommend cl-json or YASON? 20:50:13 or something else? 20:50:36 -!- cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:52:08 dys` [n=andreas@p5B3163DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:10 cl-json, only because I have used it more 20:53:45 I did once get a patch ignored for months but eventually they accepted one that fixed the problem in a non-Lisp-portable way 20:55:44 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:43 phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 20:58:06 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B3158C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:58:14 paw [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:09 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:01:18 ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 21:02:15 jdijk [i=jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has joined #lisp 21:02:39 -!- jdijk [i=jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:07:08 sebell [n=sctb@mail.arcurve.com] has joined #lisp 21:07:36 S11001001: they accepted the less general patch? 21:07:44 which implementation are they biased toward? 21:07:54 I somewhere read, I'm not sure where, perhaps in some comment, about the ansi-violation for typechecking initialization values for slots in DEFSTRUCT 21:08:06 Does that happen to ring a bell for anyone? 21:08:38 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-138-193-165.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:09:02 the text said to use something like sb-int:missing-arg instead (a function that's declared to not return) 21:09:18 -!- chupish [i=182ed347@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ffa51ef1e1b89e49] has left #lisp 21:10:16 I think it's generally recommended to use error instead 21:10:25 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:10:38 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:10:54 Hi folks, I'm trying to use the statistical profiler in SBCL to get the call-counts, percent total and percent self for of all of the functions in a particular package. What I'm seeing in the report is call counts for the functions in the package I specified, 100% for all functions (both self and total), and other functions outside of the package I specified. This is on x86 OSX and SBCL 1.0.29. Anyone have any ideas? 21:11:11 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:28 There only seems to be one sample, which is likely the issue 21:12:44 I guess your code didn't run long enough 21:12:53 Fade: SBCL and SBCL 21:14:06 foom: 26 seconds? :) 21:14:18 I like sbcl as much as the next hacker, but that's kind of a drag 21:14:54 Fade: they relied on a "should signal"; see http://trac.clozure.com/openmcl/ticket/328 21:15:06 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:15:59 notme [n=notme@p5DDD2DE5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:58 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:17:24 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:18:17 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:18:19 the interns impress me. jchen just added some functionality to cl-launch! 21:18:27 sebell: what OS? 21:18:34 26 seconds should be long enough for more than one sample. :) 21:18:46 foom: OSX 21:19:06 Hm, well. It's entirely possible it doesn't work on OSX. 21:19:16 all the signal stuff on OSX is a bit sketchy 21:19:23 Yeah, that was my first though. I'll have a chance to try it on Linux soon 21:19:26 *thought 21:21:38 -!- notme [n=notme@p5DDD2DE5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 21:23:49 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:11 ugh 21:26:18 sometime during my recent flurry of updating things 21:26:28 slime somehow got less featureful 21:26:48 and whoever responsible should be beaten and stabbed, right? 21:26:48 Ralith: may be stuff moved into contrib? 21:26:57 it used to give me a nice syntax-hilighted current-element-hilighted function arguments help in the minibuffer 21:27:06 now it gives me an ugly thing that dissapears unpredictably 21:27:16 and has the args in all caps 21:27:40 Ralith: That's actually an improvement for clisp. 21:27:52 it used to be so much nicer for sbcl ;_; 21:27:53 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-220-231-222.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:54 how do I get it back 21:28:02 But, yeah, there's some specific option for it... 21:28:56 i using clisp and have that minibuffer thing as default with slime 21:29:19 very helpful indeed i must say :) 21:29:31 no 21:29:32 it's there 21:29:35 it's just much uglier and less useful 21:29:39 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslez035.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:29:52 MUCH less useful, since it doesn't tell me what arg I'm currently in and that was its most helpful bit 21:30:16 I suppose you've tried reading the manual? 21:31:12 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:31:18 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 21:31:22 I wouldn't know where to begin 21:31:23 slime reorg, bringing repl confusion for several months now! 21:31:37 I had hoped this was some recent change that everyone new about or something 21:31:40 Ralith: firstly, install LaTeX... 21:31:47 I've got LaTeX 21:31:59 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:45 -!- benbelly [n=bholm1@cpe-74-67-149-169.rochester.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 21:33:06 ...were you going somewhere with that? 21:33:06 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@181.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:33:08 *hefner* remembers why he always regrets mixing strings and streams in parsing code 21:33:12 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@20.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:33:54 -!- asksol_ [n=ask@114.242.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Client Quit] 21:33:55 -!- asksol [n=ask@114.242.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 21:34:31 -!- phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 21:34:37 Ralith: are you using clbuild? 21:34:42 yes 21:35:06 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:35:16 *hefner* is not sure how ralith could have been using a slime so old that the great contrib exodus hadn't already occurred 21:35:38 clbuild disables normal arglists 21:35:48 clbuild is the devil. 21:35:52 anybody here using CUSP? 21:35:58 stassats: ah, that sounds relevant. How do I reenable? 21:36:03 I haven't updated SLIME since May of 2007... 21:36:09 Ralith: wait a bit 21:36:28 Ralith: (setq slime-use-autodoc-mode t) 21:36:30 Riastradh: and you're wise not to, but Ralith presumably hasn't been using CL for nearly so long. 21:36:42 indeed. 21:37:07 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:37:42 i wonder why it's disabled by clbuild, good thing i don't use it 21:37:50 stassats: didn't do anything. 21:38:08 you should put it into your .emacs 21:38:11 I did. 21:38:15 and restarted emacs, just to be sure. 21:38:30 M-: slime-use-autodoc-mode 21:38:33 the thing is just as ugly and broken as before 21:38:38 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:38:43 nil 21:38:46 ...that's weird 21:38:54 *hefner* makes a note not to update his slime any time soon 21:39:14 .... 21:39:15 *Ralith* facepalms 21:39:17 i don't really use clbuild, so i don't know how it interacts with slime 21:39:44 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:01 stassats: so I go to doublecheck that I didn't typo 21:40:06 and two lines down from it I see: 21:40:07 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:11 (setq slime-use-autodoc-mode nil) 21:40:19 which I'd copypasted in from ./clbuild slime-configuration 21:40:26 on the advice of p_l 21:40:30 right, that's what clbuild does 21:40:39 well, clbuild didn't do it so much as suggest it 21:40:50 mine is pretty much the latest slime, and is fine, ralith what OS are you on 21:40:57 Guthur: it's working now 21:41:06 happy days :) 21:41:11 indeed! 21:41:15 stassats: thanks for the help. 21:41:23 *stassats* goes back to sleep 21:41:42 *hefner* wonders what the intended purpose of clbuild was, and how that might compare with how people around here suggest using it lately 21:41:48 stassats we'll poke you when we need something again :p 21:44:46 hm, weird 21:45:05 still don't have any of the slime keybinds--but I could've sworn I did before I fixed the autodoc 21:45:53 what keybinds? in slime mode? 21:46:36 like C-c C-c. Good call, I forgot that I'd lost that when I restarted emacs. 21:46:41 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:46:52 for some reason (add-hook 'lisp-mode-hook 'slime-mode) 21:46:55 doesn't work as desired 21:47:35 should be slime-lisp-mode-hook 21:47:46 ...huh? 21:47:46 and it should be set automatically 21:48:01 (add-hook 'lisp-mode-hook 'slime-lisp-mode-hook) 21:48:04 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 21:48:04 ahh. 21:48:33 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:49:22 i guess your add-hook just switched toggled it off 21:49:26 okay, got it. 21:49:28 yeah, looks like 21:49:31 s/switched// 21:49:43 I don't remember it working when I first installed my system slime, guess it does now. 21:51:30 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:03 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 21:58:37 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:00:06 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:00:44 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:03:02 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:05:07 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-177-6.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:06:03 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-199-18-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 22:06:57 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:11:14 borism__ [n=boris@195-50-199-7-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 22:12:13 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-197-51-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:14:28 CalJohn [n=pg99@78-86-93-35.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:14:38 -!- CalJohn [n=pg99@78-86-93-35.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 22:14:48 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-199-18-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:15:35 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:15 -!- paw [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:18:19 stassats: what time is it where you at? 22:20:20 nil? 22:22:37 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:23:06 arghh. How do I get a dir temporarily into asdf's path e.g. for loading a project into slime? 22:23:09 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:23:23 just load the .asd file 22:23:32 how? 22:23:33 (load "/path/to/whatever.asd") 22:23:33 You can C-c C-k (or LOAD) the asd file. 22:23:37 ah. 22:23:47 (let ((asdf:*central-registry* (cons #P"/temp/dir/" asdf:*central-registry*))) (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :temp-sys)) 22:24:11 the registry is only used for a DWIMy search. 22:24:38 okay that didn't really do anything 22:24:50 waait. 22:25:22 yeah 22:25:42 trying to work out asd/defpackage 22:25:45 this is amazingly painful 22:25:50 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177151133.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 22:25:56 is (:use :cl :cl-irc) somehow invalid? 22:26:10 <_3b> depends on context 22:26:13 if the package CL-IRC hasn't been defined yet. 22:26:24 second arg to defpackage 22:26:29 how do I know if it's been defined? 22:26:42 (require 'cl-irc) works in the repl 22:26:48 (find-package "CL-IRC") 22:26:57 nil 22:27:02 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:02 REQUIRE with only one argument is implementation dependant. 22:27:03 doesn't mean that's the name of the package. 22:27:13 Packages and systems are independent. 22:27:26 oh, but it is the name of the package. 22:27:55 http://weitz.de/packages.html 22:28:03 <_3b> try (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'cl-irc) 22:28:21 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:28:22 okay soworks 22:28:24 er 22:28:24 works 22:28:56 so why doesn't the :use work? 22:29:10 because you're doing it wrong, presumably. 22:29:18 <_3b> have you tried the :use since you did the require or asdf:oos ? 22:29:23 that is, we do not have enough context to say. 22:29:48 _3b: er... I was hoping to be able to arrange things such that I don't have to manually load the packages in the repl before compiling my project. 22:29:58 <_3b> Ralith: that is what asdf is for 22:30:01 it does indeed compile cleanly, though. 22:30:06 no, you guys got it all wrong, it's defpackage and asdf that are painful. 22:30:07 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:30:09 <_3b> you tell asdf that your system depends on teh cl-irc system 22:30:19 I did that 22:30:40 loading the .asd didn't seem to do anything 22:30:45 <_3b> then something is wrong, paste your .asd into lisppaste 22:30:55 loading the .asd only tells asdf the system definition, it doesn't operate on it 22:31:10 Hence: (let ((asdf:*central-registry* (cons #P"/temp/dir/" asdf:*central-registry*))) (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :temp-sys)) 22:31:27 oookay, so how do I operate on it? 22:31:43 By calling asdf:oos as in (let ((asdf:*central-registry* (cons #P"/temp/dir/" asdf:*central-registry*))) (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :temp-sys)) 22:31:51 <_3b> (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'name-of-system) 22:31:54 you could probably use require, or (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op foo) 22:32:14 that gets us back in having to manually do things to compile the project land 22:32:17 is that unavoidable? 22:32:39 Yes: <_3b> you tell asdf that your system depends on teh cl-irc system 22:32:47 what? 22:32:49 -!- sebell [n=sctb@mail.arcurve.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:58 <_3b> Ralith: what is your end goal? 22:33:08 Set up a dependency between your asd system and the one it relies upon. 22:33:16 pjb: again, I did that. 22:33:26 Ralith: how many manual things? two instead of one? If you don't want to load the .asd manually, link it where asdf will find it, and then you can just do (require 'my-awesome-kludgebot) when you start lisp 22:33:28 <_3b> Ralith: presumably you want to have to do /something/ to cause your code to be run, so what steps are you trying to avoid? 22:33:30 Then just asdf:load-op your system. 22:33:31 _3b: I was hoping for being able to just open the .lisp and compile 22:33:39 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:04 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:08 Ralith: do you plan to never release your system or split it into multiple lisp files then? 22:34:11 Ralith: you can make that work, but it just isn't done. 22:34:17 hefner: okay then. 22:34:34 S11001001: no, I had hoped that slime was smart enough to work the rest out. 22:34:44 KingNato [n=patno@84-217-6-4.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:56 I think that would be the halting problem 22:35:01 Ralith: for simple unreleased project, I just define a loader.lisp filel that contains the asdf:oos forms needed to load the dependencies, and then load (and possibly compile-file) my own sources. 22:35:08 Ralith: then I just need to (load"loader") 22:35:13 like stick a (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (require :cl-irc)) at the top of the file before the defpackage, and you can bundle things together in one file. I've only done this for shebang scripts, and don't recommend it for normal things. 22:35:18 pjb: good idea 22:36:01 aughhh 22:36:02 wtf 22:36:12 slime screwed up the minibuffer doc thing again >.< 22:36:19 and this time the relevant variable's set right. 22:36:20 I load hfsbo.com with an sv runscript that passes a heredoc to SBCL that loads the ASDF system hfsbocdb, starts weblocks, and sleeps forever 22:36:55 dear god why is this so fragile 22:36:56 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-48-50.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:37:04 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-48-50.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:07 Ralith: fragile? 22:37:14 <_3b> not enugh lisp coders with nothing better to do than fix it :( 22:37:20 pkhuong: yes. 22:37:23 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:37:31 how? 22:37:36 <_3b> Ralith: did you start emacs by hand or through clbuild? 22:37:39 it just broke at little to no provokation. 22:37:46 _3b: by hand. 22:37:50 I'm not sure why one would do it any other way. 22:38:11 <_3b> no reason if you normally use emacs 22:38:12 and I doublechecked the value of slime-use-autodoc-mode 22:38:37 ah slime magic. Common problem with magic. 22:38:59 <_3b> the lisp buffer is in slime mode? 22:39:14 I tried it in the slime repl itself. 22:39:28 okay, emacs restart made it work. 22:39:31 this is just weird 22:40:33 It can only be attributable to human error. 22:40:43 This kind of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error. 22:41:05 hopefully it won't recur, whatever the cause. 22:41:34 okay, working! 22:42:41 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:01 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-27-144.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:45:18 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:45:49 jmbr__ [n=jmbr@19.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 22:46:14 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 22:48:28 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 22:49:13 -!- astalla [n=astalla@93-36-226-154.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 22:51:34 Ralith: What OS are you on? 22:52:20 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 22:52:26 tcr: arch linux 22:52:50 Ok 22:53:08 Unrelated to that question; can you paste your .emacs? 22:53:56 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 22:56:12 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:46 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:56:48 ;;hardcore .emacs\n(eval (read-minibuffer "Your customizations: ")) 22:57:20 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:59:42 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@181.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:02:56 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-100-82.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 23:03:25 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:08:08 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:09:34 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 23:09:53 mjf [n=mjf@r6y126.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:10:12 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y126.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 23:11:13 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:11:23 mjf [n=mjf@r6y126.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:11:46 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:11 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:49 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:18:20 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-146-220.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:21:22 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-220-231-222.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Going To Kill The Cat -- LOL No I'm Not Just Sleep"] 23:23:02 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:24:12 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 23:26:21 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:29:28 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 23:30:40 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:27 ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 23:33:38 hello 23:34:09 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483CC37.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:34:11 how can i find out about the performance of the list operations, in particular the asymptotic time for operations like nth 23:36:04 By reading the source. 23:38:33 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcb041.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:38:53 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:44 but that's implementation dependent, I'd like to have something more general 23:40:02 Then by reading the standard, and applying logic and common sense. 23:41:18 where can i find that? 23:41:39 the ansi standard? 23:41:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/ 23:43:39 elias`_ [n=c@host86-159-170-69.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:46:42 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:47:56 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:47:59 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:53:00 -!- nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Finally leaving the office."] 23:53:21 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:53:56 *S11001001* pastes #81784 "nth in O(1)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81784 23:54:14 Using remove-if can I check how many numbers have I deleted ? 23:55:57 (let ((ol (length list)) (res (remove-if pred list))) (values res (- ol (length res)))) 23:56:20 S11001001: it says invalid paste? 23:57:45 Indeed. Something to muse on 23:57:53 how can i get the first cons cell of a list? 23:58:01 pjb: I hoped there is easier way, but thanks ;) 23:58:01 not just the element with "first" 23:58:10 pjb: only necessary with delete-if 23:58:18 ruepel0r: when's your homework due? 23:58:25 ruepel0r: the list is the first cons cell of the list. 23:58:33 MrSpec: you can also wrap your predicate with a counter 23:58:35 ruepel0r: you may use (identity list) 23:58:37 hefner, what homework are you talking about? 23:58:50 bobf_ [n=bob@host81-158-232-146.range81-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:59:00 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:59:01 -!- elias`_ is now known as elias` 23:59:33 damnit 23:59:35 S11001001: ol, indeed. 23:59:37 loop won't iterate backwards :/ 23:59:37 (defun find-object (obj) "Scans the running image for an object EQ to OBJ and returns it if found." ...) 23:59:41 hefner, not everyone that is interested in inernals is doing homework... 23:59:42 wrap ? 23:59:45 Anyone know how to load/access java classes in a jar file using ABCL? 23:59:56 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp