00:01:29 dys` [n=andreas@p5B317735.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:33 hefner: well, if you want to get the data from the stream, no 00:01:53 or I guess that is to say that :wait t isn't what i want here 00:02:04 and then i still need to close the process 00:02:51 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-61-152-30.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:05 when I use :wait nil, I mean "fire and forget". 00:04:21 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:04:23 i guess there's 1) :wait t, which means don't do anything until the process is done, 2) :wait nil where the process will live on (in infamy) and 3) :wait nil as I'm using it where I want to get some data from the process and then have it go away. 00:05:40 hefner: that's always a bad idea 00:05:46 -!- dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:06:36 *hefner* reads the FM 00:06:47 it's not much help 00:07:23 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B31662B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:07:39 -!- dys` is now known as dys 00:09:04 what if I've said :wait nil :input nil :output nil? I just want the program to run, not read/write to it. My usual application is calling sox or timidity, and I have no reason to freeze up lisp until they finish playing. 00:09:42 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:10:03 and you don't need a whole bunch of them either. fire and forget seems appropriate here 00:10:05 there 00:11:09 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-74-132.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:11:20 b 00:11:54 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:12:23 hefner: just fire&forget is a bad idea because you should always check that the process actually started, i.e. that it didn't crash(segfault) or that execve() didn't return 00:13:17 should I? what does that buy me here? 00:14:30 what is the fastest Lisp implementation? 00:14:34 (and how do I do that?) 00:14:51 RamzaB: depends on what you're doing. 00:14:55 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c023h065.dorm.reed.edu] has joined #lisp 00:14:57 RamzaB: Anything that runs on a Cray2 :) 00:15:22 skyopomp, what is usually fastest? 00:15:30 RamzaB: it depends on what you're doing. 00:15:43 idk, like a simple GUI? 00:15:50 it depends on how you're doing it. 00:16:14 ... 00:16:14 if you're writing a simple GUI, I'd be inclined to guess that implementation performance in most aspects won't really affect it. 00:16:30 RamzaB: usually SBCL, for the sake of argument, if you're talking about the speed of compiled code. 00:16:43 thank you hefner 00:16:52 RamzaB: some implementations compile very fast, but generate slower code (like clisp), some implementations take forever and a day to do compilation, but generate very efficient code (like sbcl) 00:17:07 and some live somewhere in the middle, like CCL 00:17:14 oh sorry, I meant fast compiled code 00:17:22 then SBCL or CCL 00:17:28 well, SBCL doesn't really generate very efficient code, unless you ask it nicely, but that's probably true of every CL. 00:17:47 CCL? 00:17:51 Clozure CL 00:17:55 oh ok 00:18:48 hefner: if right after you start a process which is suppose to be long-lived, its process-status is :exited and process-exit-code > 0, then it (probably) crashed 00:21:13 fe[nl]ix: noted, although I still don't think it applies to my use case (and I'm not sure what it has to do with calling process-wait, either). 00:26:00 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:26:18 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"] 00:28:33 hefner: just that given that sbcl's run-program seems to be a bit unstable(even on Linux Fare has problems with it), manually GCing processes seems to be useful 00:28:35 does sbcl have, for example, a parallel map operator? 00:29:09 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:30:17 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:31:31 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:32:35 merimus: no, it has threads. write your own. 00:33:46 hefner: good enough 00:34:01 *hefner* is amazed, expected an argument. 00:34:14 hah 00:34:40 I'd just hate to write one if there was a perfectly good one sitting there 00:35:22 s0ber_ [i=pie@118-160-170-87.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:03 I don't like the notion of parallel-map as such. If you care enough about performance to want to use your extra cores, you probably want to deal in chunks bigger than a single array element (unless, of course, individual array elements happen to be quite expensive to process) 00:36:45 unfortunately, I can't think of a similarly catchy name that makes it clear you're mapping over ranges instead of elements 00:37:26 MapReduce ? 00:38:04 *hefner* never bothered implementing the "reduce" bit, so no. 00:38:42 nothing says map couldn't block the range 00:40:02 hefner: chunky:map ;) 00:40:50 each array element can be something "big" 00:40:53 merimus, I think I saw something on clojure about doing just that for some of the sequence work currently/in the near future 00:41:03 pkhuong: is that a fat american joke? 00:41:23 lnostdal: even worse each element can be a random size 00:41:32 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:41:39 just pointers, merimus 00:42:16 "pointers" 00:42:28 merimus: no, but I do have a chunked sequence library in the queue, and chunky sounds like a cute name. 00:43:08 what's a chunked sequence library? 00:43:58 -!- s0ber_ [i=pie@118-160-170-87.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:44:23 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-165-124.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:24 (my interpretation of parallel-map has the uncatchy name "exec-parallel-range") 00:47:08 after this stimulating conversation, I shall rename it to "parallel-chunks" 00:47:24 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-172-70.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:16 CHOP-THEN-GRIND 00:48:29 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068135036.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:49:42 -!- twick [n=user@john-marshall.sflc.info] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:51:36 chunk-and-munch? 00:52:23 saikat [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 00:53:09 saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 00:54:31 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:32 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-61-152-30.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Going To Kill The Cat -- LOL No I'm Not Just Sleep"] 01:00:11 -!- saikat [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:00:56 hefner: non-strict sequences implemented as a stream of strict chunks. 01:04:21 -!- ruediger_ [n=ruediger@62-47-149-232.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:04:31 jmbr [n=jmbr@46.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 01:11:40 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@46.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:12:30 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-68-209.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 01:13:31 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-68-209.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:13:53 saikat [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 01:14:20 drafael 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[n=Michael@host86-138-193-165.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 02:29:10 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:29:39 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:29:56 brianski [n=ski@pool-74-96-2-232.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:36 what is the easiest way to play around with lisp/scheme on an ubuntu linux machine? 02:31:08 BrianRice, scheme is #scheme I think 02:31:25 but if you want to try common lisp, apt-get install sbcl will get you somewhere though it'll likely be outdated 02:31:27 right, i meant common lisp or scheme, i don't much care which 02:31:54 sohail: how outdated? 02:31:56 that's like saying you want C or Java, and don't care which. 02:32:29 sykopomp: i know 02:32:52 so let's say i want common lisp :-) 02:32:55 sbcl should do it then. 02:33:03 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:25 brianski, doesn't look to be too outdated 02:33:44 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 02:33:58 pinterface1 [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:05 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:35:10 -!- pinterface1 is now known as pinterface 02:37:03 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:37:24 -!- kuatto [n=kuatto@174.124.209.116] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:37:52 what book would you recommend for learning Lisp? 02:39:48 minion: please tell RamzaB about that-dead-sexy-book 02:39:49 RamzaB: have a look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 02:41:55 -!- RamzaB [n=lobomonh@ip72-197-207-250.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [] 02:43:30 nuntius [n=nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:29 is there an evalbot here? 02:50:31 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-104-22.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 02:51:03 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:06 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:46 Any minion minders here? 02:52:04 brianski: I'm pretty sure the answer is, no. 02:53:24 gigamonkey: bummer 02:53:55 brianski: well, if you're doing any Lisp at all, you should have a Lisp REPL running anyway. 02:54:04 REPL ? 02:54:04 you need full CL, or just something like http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~rona/tlisp/ 02:54:12 Read Eval Print Loop 02:54:20 http://l1sp.org/pcl/repl 02:54:28 Doh, ignore that link. 02:55:08 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:55:41 map is not defined? 02:56:01 it's got mapcar, but not map. It's just a tiny lisp, not common lisp 02:56:21 just the first google hit (hint hint) 02:56:33 gotcha 02:59:24 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.142.201] has joined #lisp 03:01:49 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:00 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.244.7] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:08:31 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:11:21 -!- capitano [i=averagec@95.95.210.110] has quit [Client Quit] 03:13:52 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:21:07 evening 03:21:59 gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 03:22:34 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-74-132.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:22:39 Can I get SLIME to enter the debugger when a STYLE-WARNING is signaled? 03:22:51 dear god :) 03:25:40 hmm... 03:25:58 (handler-bind ((style-warning #'invoke-debugger)) ...) 03:30:28 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B317735.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:30:47 *break-on-signals*? 03:31:06 Tordek [n=tordek@host132.190-227-45.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 03:31:12 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@cpe-75-81-202-25.we.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:32:29 Sikander [n=soemraws@pool-71-102-233-253.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:45 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-220-231-222.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:42 ah... so that's how I was getting those crazy file descriptor numbers. If I don't process-close I get the infamous: The value 1026 is not of type (MOD 1025) message (at least when I pound on the server with ab). 03:37:12 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c023h065.dorm.reed.edu] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:39:32 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 03:39:53 pkhuong: duh, that's a better idea. I'm out of practice. 03:40:04 kpreid: how's E going then? 03:40:49 eh, it feels too much like a one-man job sometimes. everyone else is busy. and I find that we need language design work, but also applications to drive it 03:41:03 *kpreid* is currently working on the related project of http://code.google.com/p/caja-captp/ 03:41:24 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.221.135] has joined #lisp 03:43:14 and I'm starting to get a feel for the performance issues in a dual simplex... Problem is, I really should be working on my thesis instead ;) 03:45:34 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-144-26.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 03:48:07 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@cpe-75-81-202-25.we.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:49:12 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 03:54:23 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 03:56:06 rtoym: re SSE complexes on cmucl, are your stack frames correctly aligned on x86-64? 03:56:48 You mean aligned on 16 word boundaries? No. 03:57:00 (At least I don't think so.) 03:57:01 -!- brianski [n=ski@pool-74-96-2-232.washdc.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 03:57:53 I was hoping you'd found a nice place to cut and insert alignment logic. 03:58:37 None of the sse2 stuff is aligned. I just use the unaligned instructions to move things to/from memory. 04:02:05 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.221.135] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:08:41 pkhuong: Are you adding sse complexes? 04:09:08 Alestan [n=Logan_Pe@208.81.152.74] has joined #lisp 04:09:44 Hmm. I think there are a couple of bugs in cl ansi-tests. 04:10:19 yes. They should be fine (at last), but I'm on a bad connection, and it's about the third time I'm almost certain the patch is ok, so I'll wait a couple days to re-review and commit. 04:10:22 Hey, I just installed common Lisp on a ubuntu linux box. I just grabbed the synaptic package, I'm somewhat lost what to try now. Anyone familiar with CLisp on ubuntu linux? 04:11:47 Alestan: try setting up emacs and SLIME 04:12:59 pkhuong: How are sse complexes currently implemented? Not using packed sse2 representation? 04:14:03 yes, packed SSE2. I just have to do some more juggling since I don't have addsub. 04:14:14 oh currently. Pairs of SSE regs 04:15:31 What do you use addsub for? Complex multiply? 04:15:52 And conjugate. 04:16:33 also, I was wondering how you implemented division of complex single float by single float to avoid spurious arithmetic exceptions. 04:16:38 Oh. CMUCL decided to support just sse2, not ssse3. 04:17:55 I think that's wise, maybe with a post-bootstrap variable for additional extensions later. If it matters, you're likely not calling into the runtime much anyway. 04:19:02 I did add a vop for ssse3 so the user could add the ssse3 feature and get a nice speed up for multiplies. 04:19:15 *rtoym* wonders how to use addsub to implement conjugate.... 04:19:39 Complex division is handled by a deftransform. 04:19:51 sure, but division of a complex by a real? 04:20:35 (and even then, a "block"-oriented formulation could take advantage of a faster complex-real div) 04:21:26 Taggnostr2 [n=x@130.232.126.213] has joined #lisp 04:21:27 What spurious exceptions would you get from a complex/real? 04:22:07 I just used a divpd instruction. Maybe I missed a case. 04:22:29 But for floats? 04:22:35 erh, single floats. 04:23:15 Ah, divps does 4 single divisions. Good point. 04:23:38 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@130.232.126.213] has quit [Client Quit] 04:24:05 Depending on the OS machine combo, a 0.0/0.0 could results in a signaling NaN. 04:24:35 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:24:50 -!- nuntius [n=nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12"] 04:25:18 *rtoym* goes to test that.... 04:26:12 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 04:27:32 I had that on linux/amd64. Or if the user fiddles with the exception mask... 04:28:31 Hmm. A simple test doesn't trigger that. Maybe the easy thing is to duplicate the complex to the other half so the division is fine. 04:28:53 After quadruplicating the real number. 04:30:07 Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 04:30:16 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:30:17 That's what I did. 04:30:32 -!- Alestan [n=Logan_Pe@208.81.152.74] has left #lisp 04:30:56 Ok. I guess I'll have to fix that on cmucl. 04:31:34 How do you conjugate with addsub? CMUCL uses a simple deftransform to handle conjugate. 04:32:12 mm... wait. Might be confused. Currently, I load a constant in, permute it into the high half if needed and xor. 04:33:20 right, never mind. addsub would subtract the real part. 04:33:59 Ok. I was trying to figure out how to order stuff to make addsub work. 04:34:02 also, do you guarantee that the unused top bits are 0 to simplify comparisons (eql or =)? 04:34:54 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:36:52 Why did the ansi committee decide not to have global lexical vars? 04:37:05 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:37:56 not supported by maclisp, most likely (: 04:38:02 :( 04:38:19 is that also why EVAL is dumb? 04:38:29 pkhuong: Not sure. There doesn't appear to be vops for that. 04:39:33 no, there aren't. They're deftransformed by default, and the transform for eql of complex is particularly heinous. It compares all 4 32 bit components of a complex double float separately. 04:39:55 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E4532F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:09 Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 04:41:36 pkhuong: Ah. I guess separate vops could be useful, but I almost never use eql or = on floats, complex or otherwise. 04:42:45 *rtoym* notes that cmucl implements conjugate as (complex (realpart z) (- 0 (imagpart z))). I don't remember why. 04:42:50 eql I could see, to check for infs or qnan. 04:43:32 I don't check for infs or nans either. :-) 04:43:54 (- 0 x) could be implemented as (inst xorpd r r) (inst subsd r x). OTOH, it doesn't handle the sign of 0s correctly. 04:44:30 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:11 I think that would be a mistake, as you say, with signed zeroes. 04:45:54 well, -0 *is* an entirely different number... 04:46:05 But the clhs says conjugate just does (- y), so I don't know why we do (- 0 y). 04:46:32 Oh, wait. I was looking at the wrong deftransform. Stupid me. 04:48:03 dys [n=andreas@p5B317735.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:41 Time for bed. 04:50:05 pkhuong: Thanks for the discussion. I'll have to fix the complex/single issue. 04:50:28 thanks to you too. Good to know I'm not doing anything obviously bone headed 04:51:01 btw, using full register moves greatly improved scalar perf (as a side effect of my invariant to simplify comparisons). 04:52:59 Yes, packed complexes made things quite a bit faster. 04:53:34 Good night! 04:53:42 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042315]"] 04:57:37 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47B57.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 04:58:55 dizpater [n=dizpater@99-203-151-152.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:56 hm 04:59:10 someone managed to write a cl-store extension that 'serializes' functions. 04:59:16 including closures, etc. 04:59:36 right. read the documentation. 05:00:19 implying that it's all fudged and not-quite-what-it-says? 05:00:57 last time I looked, yes. 05:01:11 yeah, it is 05:01:29 but it certainly seems like a nice shot at doing it. 05:01:49 probably too leaky to use extensively, but something's something :) 05:07:25 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@pool-71-102-233-253.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:11:31 -!- eno [n=eno@adsl-70-137-135-152.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:14:52 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-127-196.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:16:11 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 05:16:28 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-22-207.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 05:17:09 so, is Israel a Democracy or not? This seems to, at this point, be a relevant topic. 05:17:11 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-144-26.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 05:18:10 but not for this channel 05:18:23 slyrus: :P 05:18:53 *sykopomp* is commenting on how common that particular title is in all those mailing-list spams. 05:19:08 it seems like every other cl.net project gets spammed with it ;\ 05:21:17 hopefully that's a distant, painful memory 05:21:47 slyrus: doesn't look like it. It's annoying. 05:22:20 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 05:23:42 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-123.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:28:11 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-61.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:29:34 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-200.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:31:10 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:32:38 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-57-65.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:33:43 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:35:18 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 05:35:58 Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:16 -!- jlf [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:41:58 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:44 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:43:10 drwhen [n=doctor@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:49 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:55:02 -!- drwhen [n=doctor@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:55:56 -!- dizpater [n=dizpater@99-203-151-152.pools.spcsdns.net] has left #lisp 06:05:28 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:05:33 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has left #lisp 06:09:04 lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-13-47.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:35 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:30 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 06:12:02 -!- pjb is now known as hsync 06:12:56   06:13:01 -!- hsync is now known as pjb 06:15:48 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:16:16 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 06:21:09 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has joined #lisp 06:24:51 dizpater [n=dizpater@99-203-151-152.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:16 -!- dizpater [n=dizpater@99-203-151-152.pools.spcsdns.net] has left #lisp 06:26:26 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.143.59] has joined #lisp 06:27:39 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 06:28:07 hello 06:28:25 hi 06:35:28 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:35:48 luism [n=dizpater@99-203-151-152.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:39 wtf: "Let's make MEMQ fast" (Fateman on c.l.l)? Why use MEMQ at all then? 06:39:20 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.142.201] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:46:15 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:46:18 splittist [n=dmurray@92-6.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:46:20 morning 06:46:26 morn' 06:46:51 Why didn't I know about the cltl3 project? 06:47:20 clearly, you are out of the loop 06:47:25 :) 06:48:18 SOML (; 06:52:46 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.225.248] has joined #lisp 06:55:15 asksol [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 06:57:14 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:59:30 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 07:02:12 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:02:30 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:02:58 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:05:26 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-39.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 07:06:01 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-30-209.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:06:34 good morning 07:08:39 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:09:53 Good morning mvilleneuve. I was intrigued by your mention of two Bx-based lisp-using companies/startups. What are they doing? 07:10:17 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:11:24 -!- luism [n=dizpater@99-203-151-152.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:11:44 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.168.12] has joined #lisp 07:12:14 good morning splittist 07:12:14 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:16:41 asksol_ [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 07:17:58 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:20:36 cltl3? where, what? 07:21:17 tic: there's work starting on a cltl3 07:21:22 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit ["leaving"] 07:21:40 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 07:21:45 http://ilc2009.scheming.org/node/48 07:21:46 sykopomp, url? 07:21:48 thanks 07:22:06 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:22:32 -!- domiel [n=dnj@58.172.210.231] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:23:59 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:29:50 frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 07:32:56 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:14 mega1 [n=mega@pool-04fa6.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:33:34 splittist: they both develop mobile applications 07:33:43 -!- asksol [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:34:04 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:34:58 mvilleneuve: thanks! 07:35:59 splittist: one develops a kind of widget engine based on a lisp interpreter, to be downloaded on java-capable phones 07:36:12 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-79-19.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 07:36:37 splittist: the other (mine) uses lisp for tools to produce mobile applications 07:36:51 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:38:29 mvilleneuve: there seem to be a lot of French mobile-app companies. Is that just a false impression of mine, or is there a reason for this, do you think? (The effects of a random distribution of companies could count as a reason.) 07:41:52 splittist: regarding the Bordeaux area, there was a company here ("in-fusio") employing over 100 people and making games for mobile phones, most developers were laid off a couple years ago, and some of them started companies in (more or less) the same business 07:43:57 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-25-57.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:49:30 jmbr [n=jmbr@212.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 07:54:03 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-191-51.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:58:08 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Time to die.... eh, sleep..."] 07:58:11 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 08:02:13 [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.177] has joined #lisp 08:02:22 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 08:10:34 pierre- [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:18 -!- rorywinston [n=rory@5ac03a65.bb.sky.com] has quit [Success] 08:19:47 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.225.248] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:21:12 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 08:23:20 frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 08:24:04 hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 08:26:21 hi all 08:26:32 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 08:27:16 mvilleneuve: thats normal 08:29:14 mobile compaines come and go 08:29:19 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE00236916024d-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 08:29:27 lisp remains ;) 08:30:53 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE00236916024d-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:31:04 anyhow has that huncentoot stop problem been fixed? 08:31:29 (I think I will ask that every day until it has) 08:32:19 stop problem? 08:32:31 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-200.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:32:45 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-149.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:33:07 yes huncentoot will not terminate 08:33:35 couloir [n=chatzill@S0106001a706b09fb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:37:24 -!- frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:37:49 elias` [n=c@host217-42-207-213.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:39:32 I've recently converted to satanism.. 08:39:35 lol 08:40:38 <[Head|Rest]> >_< 08:41:24 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:43:52 [Head|Rest]: (car . cdr) ! 08:45:15 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:52:16 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 08:54:24 jthing: you just need to solve the halting problem, that's all 09:02:09 divz [n=divz@158.144.44.212] has joined #lisp 09:09:06 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:12:29 Grilinctus 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[n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:17:29 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-188-098-192-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:53 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 11:21:12 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 11:23:07 -!- frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:23:48 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 11:25:40 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:27:54 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:07 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.143.59] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:29:15 Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 11:35:05 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:35:14 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:50 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:38:11 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087A4D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:53 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:43:17 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:43:25 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:46:53 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:48:20 TauPan [n=taupan@dudelab.org] has joined #lisp 11:48:26 hi 11:48:33 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:48:33 -!- couloir [n=chatzill@S0106001a706b09fb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:48:45 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:48:54 hi 11:49:28 I'm suddenly having problems connecting to swank. Running test.sh emacs sbcl hangs with "Connecting to Swank on port 50919.." indefinitely. 11:50:00 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:50:19 that's with SBCL 1.0.27.debian, cvs emacs from 2009-04-23 and a freshly updated slime from cvs 11:51:19 i don't use slime personally, but you could try updating sbcl to 1.0.29 11:51:21 what's test.sh? 11:51:28 it used to work a few days ago 11:51:54 stassats: a script in the slime source directory that opens an emacs and runs slime with the lisp implementation given at the command line 11:51:56 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:52:12 ah, I have an elisp backtrace now 11:52:13 lisppaste: url 11:52:13 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 11:52:20 paste it 11:52:35 don't you just open emacs and type M-x slime ? 11:52:38 well, the connection just timed out, it's not really weird 11:52:50 manic12: that gives the same result... I just wanted to test if it's my setup. 11:53:21 switch to *inferior-lisp* buffer and look for errors 11:53:22 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:32 TauPan pasted "elisp backtrace from failed slime connect" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81698 11:55:07 hm... it deletes unreachable code that contains SWANK-BACKEND-RECEIVE-IF... I'll paste the log 11:55:29 also, try to delete ~/.slime 11:55:31 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:56:42 deleting slime does not help, same error log 11:57:25 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:57:37 so, annotate your paste with *inferior-lisp* contents 11:57:37 TauPan annotated #81698 "suspicious "unreachable code" in *inferior-lisp* buffer" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81698#1 11:58:06 that's the full content, but you can search for 'SWANK-BACKEND-RECEIVE-IF' to find the line that I find suspicous 11:58:32 err 11:58:33 slime is from 2009-01-17, try to update it 11:58:42 I just cvs updated it 11:59:06 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:07 did you have slime or cl-swank installed from debian? 11:59:25 not on this box, I think 11:59:48 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:01 and I just moved my complete ~/.slime away 12:00:18 try do dpkg --purge slime 12:00:23 and cl-swank too 12:00:24 afk for a few minutes... will do 12:01:12 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 12:03:56 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:05:00 -!- divz [n=divz@158.144.44.212] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:05:01 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:07:54 Has there been any speculation or study on which existing processors are naturally better/more efficient with lisp? 12:08:21 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-173-126.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:08:55 Quadrescence: what counts as 'existing processors'? 12:09:25 splittist: That's hard to say, I guess. Maybe "modern" processors, or processors being manufactured. 12:12:09 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-188-098-192-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:13:18 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-188-098-192-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:18 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:15:49 elias` [n=c@host217-42-207-213.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:19:06 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:21:51 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:12 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:31 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:26:36 danlei [n=user@pD9E2F987.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:14 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-69-71.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 12:28:23 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-69-71.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:29:08 Quadrescence: supposedly, sparc processors have instructions that would be helpful in processing tagged words. 12:29:41 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-64.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:31:08 Quadrescence: one way to measure the goodness-for-lisp of processors, is to measure the size and complexity of the compilers for the various targets. It seems to me that a compiler like ccl targetting initially 680x0 or power-pc is simplier than a compiler such as sbcl targetting initially 80x86... I would tend to conclude that 680x0 or power-pc are better for lisp than 80x86. But then, 80x86 are bad at anything... 12:32:01 one way to measure the goodness-for-lisp of a processor is to roll a die 12:32:15 timor [n=martin@w4263.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 12:33:00 -!- timor [n=martin@w4263.dip.tu-dresden.de] has left #lisp 12:34:24 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-173-126.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has left #lisp 12:36:20 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:26 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:36:35 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-223.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:38:02 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-132-77.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:38:04 matimago: I suppose those are good speculations. 12:39:53 Quadrescence: of course, you would have to "normalize" modulo each intrinsic implementation complexity. Hapilly we have several implementations, and several implementations targetting several processors. 12:40:26 matimago: Yeah. Also, I was speaking about lisp in general, perhaps not Common Lisp. 12:40:59 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@150.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:41:21 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:05 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:16 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-173-126.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:44:19 Quadrescence: well, nowdays it will be easier to compare CL implementations (or you could do that with scheme). Anyways, with other lisps, there was never a lot of different ports: they tended to be mono-target, in general. 12:45:12 Maybe I'm better off studying processor instruction sets. I've read a good amount about lisp VMs 12:45:38 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-138-147.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:46:15 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:46:44 How can I make my hunchentoot server to not add a get parameter denotates cookie like "?hunchentoot-session=xxx" to a link? 12:47:43 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:48:02 Drakeson [n=user@206-248-177-70.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 12:48:09 Jasko [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:21 couloir [n=chatzill@S0106001a706b09fb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:56 tomoyuki28jp: disable session processing? 12:52:07 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:52:40 matimago: uhm, I don't wanna do that. Thanks for the info though. 12:53:04 seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 12:53:22 http://www.weitz.de/hunchentoot/#session-cookie-name 12:54:19 Also: http://www.weitz.de/hunchentoot/#*rewrite-for-session-urls* 12:56:03 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:56:14 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 12:56:21 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@212.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:56:36 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:44 prabuinet [n=prabu@221.134.21.34] has joined #lisp 12:58:54 matimago: oh, *rewrite-for-session-urls* is the one! thanks a lot!! 12:59:00 -!- reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Success] 12:59:16 i'm going to write a language converter (4gl to c#). can i know which libraries will be useful for it.. 13:01:26 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 13:02:28 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-173-126.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:02:44 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 13:03:11 Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 13:03:20 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-188-098-192-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:05:52 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-111.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 13:07:02 prabuinet: depending on 4GL's syntax cl-yacc or nikodemus' packrat parser might be useful. 13:08:44 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:58 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit ["leaving"] 13:09:59 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:10:25 prabuinet: also you may have a look a parenscript to see how to generate alien source code. 13:11:22 i hope that part of parenscript has been rewritten :] 13:13:39 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 13:15:14 Well, I've got other examples, but they're not released :-( 13:15:21 sepult_ [n=buggarag@87.78.122.228] has joined #lisp 13:15:29 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 13:15:46 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:15:55 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:18:32 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-127-196.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:15 benbelly [n=bholm1@cpe-74-67-149-169.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:21:43 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:23:34 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:27:02 how do i make sure a package is available for import, i call (in-package :usocket) and get no package error; with Slime, i have installed the debian usocket package 13:27:38 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-79-19.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 13:27:57 buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-122-228.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:28:06 Do you want (use-package :usocket) ? 13:28:39 very possible :) 13:29:10 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:30:11 It errors if the package isn't available. Not really sure what you want to do / can do in that case. 13:30:34 ya but it should be the name of the package 13:30:44 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-25-57.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:31:38 seejay_ [n=seejay@202.69.200.5] has joined #lisp 13:32:14 Guthur: You have to load usocket first. 13:32:19 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:32:29 -!- seejay_ is now known as seejay 13:32:29 Guthur: E.g. by (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :usocket) 13:32:42 Guthur: On SBCL, you can also, more simply, do (require :usocket) 13:32:44 ah ya i was just reading something now :) 13:33:37 merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has joined #lisp 13:33:41 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:34:48 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:17 tcr the load-op did it alright, thanks 13:35:20 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:05 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-132-77.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:36:44 -!- buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-122-228.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:38:56 sellout [n=greg@18.190.3.195] has joined #lisp 13:42:14 -!- prabuinet [n=prabu@221.134.21.34] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:45:16 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:07 Guthur: http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 13:46:10 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [] 13:48:25 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 13:49:26 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-69-71.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 13:49:35 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 13:49:37 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:52:37 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:57:51 ok, slime and cl-swank were never installed on my system 13:58:19 *TauPan* is talking about slime connection timeouts, see http://paste.lisp.org/display/81698 13:59:33 manic12: I don't know if a newer sbcl is available for debian, let's see. 13:59:52 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:09 nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:34 G'morning all. 14:00:57 morning 14:02:12 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-141-125.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 14:02:17 tcr cheers for the link 14:03:02 So, what's on for today? 14:03:09 ugh 14:03:50 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-79-19.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 14:05:12 matley [n=matley@91.80.235.195] has joined #lisp 14:05:16 dat [n=dthomp@98.98.142.230] has joined #lisp 14:06:50 nyef: waking up at 1500 despite your best efforts isn't a good start for a day -_- 14:07:13 Wow. No, it wouldn't be. 14:07:14 p_l: on the contrary! 14:07:44 -!- sellout [n=greg@18.190.3.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:03 nyef: doing the same for over a week is even worse :> 14:08:04 You'd get to go down to the beach at the best time of the day, when the water is hotter, then come back home at the best time of the day (start of the evening) to eat, then have a full 16 hours of fresh night behind you to hack lisp code... 14:08:40 matimago: If I had my schedule completely free to act like that, then sure :D 14:08:43 p_l: Yeah, I've had similar results. Not quite to that extent recently, but it still sucks. 14:08:49 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:08:57 p_l: yes, freedom of schedule is essential for good productivity. 14:13:01 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 14:13:57 doh, wrong version of slime 14:14:55 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:15:04 but same error as before with the new version 14:17:22 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has quit ["leaving"] 14:18:08 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:18:12 it looks like in swank-sbcl.lisp, in line 1351, the second parameter of the (sb-ext:with-timout 0.1 ...) call (I assume it's a macro) is optimized away as unreachable, so the connection is never accepted. 14:18:20 manic12: btw, if you get more interested in using shaders in listener, there's ShaderConfig, apparently free app to write and test. http://sol-online.org/index.php?content=info&project=shaderconfig 14:18:23 willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:18:27 (still SBCL 1.0.27.debian 14:18:28 ) 14:19:09 joachifm [n=joachim@ti132110a340-3137.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 14:19:36 buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-122-228.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:21:48 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:22:12 hm, looks like it could be https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/310102 which is fixed in sbcl 1.0.29 14:22:37 but the bug only talks about "annoying warnings" not about actually breaking code 14:23:21 the unreashable code note does not mean that the body is completely optimised away. 14:23:56 -!- buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-122-228.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:24:12 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-251-238.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 14:25:12 oh, I thought it would... and that would explain why swank never accepts a connection 14:25:26 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@87.78.122.228] has quit [Client Quit] 14:25:27 -!- hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [] 14:27:59 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:01 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-78-19.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:30:19 sepult [n=buggarag@87.78.122.228] has joined #lisp 14:30:51 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:31:01 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@82.Red-79-150-114.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:33:40 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-111.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 14:36:21 rtra [n=user@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 14:43:02 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:47:55 divz [n=divz@158.144.44.212] has joined #lisp 14:49:03 hello can anyone guide me with xmlrpc authentication? 14:51:39 What seems to be the problem? 14:52:08 heya, this might be something that i should just try out myself (i'm not sure how to measure or test this though), but maybe someone know this already .. say i have sbcl with "--dynamic-space-size 512", and i do a couple of sb-posix:fork calls .. i understand linux does copy-on-write when forking in a C context and will share/save as much memory as possible because of this(?), but how does this work with stuff like SBCL? .. wi 14:52:08 ll it "just work"? .. (that would be great ...) .. 14:52:53 lnostdal: it should. c-o-w is independent of runtime 14:53:33 hm, ok .. so if i fork and just change "tiny bits of memory" it won't take up 512 + 512 = 1gb memory .. .. heh :} 14:53:35 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@150.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:53:43 SBCL frobs the page tables a lot, so COW is still fairly slow (order of 1 second, iirc). GC will also affect the amount of sharing you can expect. 14:54:20 Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:54:28 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E4532F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:55:08 well, in theory, all pagemappings are copied, changed to copy-on-write. But you won't share much if you start manipulating space after that :D 14:55:12 ok, pkhuong 14:56:12 p_l: simply copying the mapping takes a long time. A linux kernel patch that made the mappings COW too greatly sped fork up for SBCL (didn't make it to mainline) 14:56:48 jmbr [n=jmbr@150.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:57:56 i'm surprised how solid, fast and how little memory Chromium uses .. i can really go nuts on one "page" (window/tab) and have it crash and burn while the other pages run smoothly still .. maybe it is a good idea for other things also 14:58:53 referring to the one process pr. tab/window idea they use .. wouldn't make sense for a server i guess, but for some things perhaps 14:59:09 that's the only way to run php 14:59:59 yeah, tiny thing .. so it's a bit different 15:01:29 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:29 perhaps not very lisp specific this, but anyone know of a tool that allows one to see or measure how much memory is shared between processes? 15:01:33 ..on linux.. 15:01:51 i'd like to try this .. 15:02:08 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:02:16 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 15:02:22 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:02:22 top? SHR and RES. 15:03:36 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-141-125.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:03:46 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C236.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:02 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 15:06:54 ZabaQ [n=johnc@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 15:07:00 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-157-31.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 15:07:24 morning 15:08:12 lnostdal: pmap will show you mappings 15:08:37 also play around in /proc, you might find more data 15:08:47 cool .. i'll try 15:09:11 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@ti132110a340-3137.bb.online.no] has quit [Client Quit] 15:10:58 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:12:18 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:14:28 ask [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 15:14:30 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-123.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:35 has anybody used hunchentoot-vhost or know of or have examples that are a bit more expansive than the readme 15:15:01 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-127-196.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:17:01 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 15:17:25 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:15 perhaps pre-forking .. and using a non-blocking front-end server (iolib-based) for all IO would be a good idea .. that way there is no way for things to get "stuck", and there is no 1-process-spawned pr. client stuff going on -- like in php .. but still the same benefit of total isolation 15:19:01 ..the ability to redefine stuff at run-time and see the effect at once gets way harder though 15:19:06 i think :) 15:22:28 reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 15:23:30 Shouldn't get way-way harder if you have an interface to tell all of the backends to interpret some sexpr. 15:25:22 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:25:27 I played with something like that once. 15:26:05 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:27:35 Might not be as straightforward as using SLIME, but not exactly difficult. 15:27:49 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:27:55 just kill the children on upgrades. 15:28:14 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:28:25 "Won't somebody think of the children?" 15:28:38 kill the children.. like the sound of that. (I'm satanist) 15:28:44 bah, the kids are alright. 15:28:47 nyef: they won't feel a thing when SIGKILL hits them 15:28:55 kill -9 15:28:55 milanj [n=milan@77.46.219.35] has joined #lisp 15:28:57 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:29:15 all unix guys are satanists. they fork children and kill their parents. 15:29:19 sigterm 15:29:27 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-245-18.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:29:27 indeed 15:31:56 -!- divz [n=divz@158.144.44.212] has quit ["leaving"] 15:32:08 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:32:18 jdz: And that's not even mentioning the daemons. 15:32:39 oh, yeah, forgot about those. 15:32:43 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:03 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-157-31.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:33:13 fvw [n=sdfpme@119.128.75.213] has joined #lisp 15:34:51 yeah, this might be an interesting way to do testing/development while something is running also; only upgrade a single process and lock that to handle requests from a single user only (me) .. cool 15:35:00 idunno :) 15:35:55 why prefork if you use non-blocking front-end 15:36:03 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 15:36:05 just use 1 process 15:36:48 lnostdal: or use few running daemons and distribute work among them (the way it had been done with Rails/Merb) 15:37:06 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@119.128.75.213] has quit [Client Quit] 15:37:15 coderdad_ [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:28 xristos: Multiple processes allows you to handle more load. 15:37:34 yeah, simpler that of course, xristos .. it is a shame not to use the extra cores i got here though 15:37:58 nyef: sure, sometimes you don't have that kind of load though 15:38:00 lnostdal: non blocking and threads. 15:38:02 pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has joined #lisp 15:38:09 sometimes tends to be most times for me 15:38:11 that's what i do now, pkhuong 15:38:18 parolang` [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:25 so what's the problem with using multiple cores? 15:39:20 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:40:18 jlf [n=user@adsl-66-121-24-153.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:56 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:41:38 nothing i guess; processes is one way to do it, and threads is another 15:42:03 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:37 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:46:31 10 000 GPU SIMD 15:46:45 now that's CUDA 15:47:18 fractals on steroids 15:48:59 -!- parolang` [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:49:01 of cource these days a CRAY cost's 76 000$ and fits under my desk (druel) 15:49:33 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:49:43 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 15:49:56 Thats roghly the same as a high end car (in Norway) 15:50:20 it's still a low-end cray ;-) 15:50:37 unfortunately SiCortex is dead. Their hi-end systems looked nice 15:50:38 who do I kill to get one of those.. 15:50:57 jthing: and it'll keep you warm during the Norwegian winters! 15:51:09 and eat your power bill 15:51:27 hm, with sbcl-1.0.29 I don't get those warnings about unreachable code, however slime still hangs on connecting. 15:51:35 Norway's all hydroelectric.. very clean 15:51:39 though it will be still better than the same with a cluster of PCs 15:51:44 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 15:51:49 if I press ctrl-g then, I get a very plain lisp interaction, without any slime features. 15:52:26 you are aware that there as 2 lisp interaction buffers? 15:52:27 -!- dat [n=dthomp@98.98.142.230] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:52:41 TauPan: and do you have slime-repl or slime-fancy enabled? 15:53:02 yes 15:53:13 sicortex.com still exists. 15:53:31 matimago: they are selling off all assets and breaking down the company now 15:53:59 unless someone manages to pull enough money to buy them/fund them 15:54:10 Perhaps I could get a SC5832 for $100 then ? 15:54:33 (eval-after-load "slime" 15:54:33 '(slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf slime-tramp slime-sbcl-exts))) 15:55:09 TauPan: Do you still get that note for RECEIVE-IF? 15:55:24 nope, not any more with sbcl 1.0.29 15:55:28 TauPan: In fact, remove ~/.slime, run slime again, and paste the result of *inferior-lisü* 15:55:42 I did remove slime and retried... 15:55:43 But I'm afraid I couldn't pay the transport and neither the electricity bill... :-( 15:55:48 ok, will annotate 15:55:54 TauPan: Yes, but I want to look at it with .29 15:56:17 matimago: the electricity bill wouldn't be that hard, I think, given it takes what, 6~7 kW? 15:56:32 that's like four servers 15:56:33 for the sc5832, it's <20 kWatt. 15:56:42 that's surely peak power, rather than normal operating? 15:56:42 TauPan annotated #81698 "*inferior-lisp* buffer with sbcl 1.0.29" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81698#2 15:56:50 ah right, I calculated from per-cpu power 15:57:06 (one core had power usage of circa 1W) 15:57:44 still, 20 kW is lower than a rack with 10 servers can take 15:57:49 and its mass is 680 kg. 15:58:24 TauPan: Weird. What platform? What's the content of *slime-events*? 15:58:37 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-30-209.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:58:40 that buffer doesn't exit 15:58:42 exist 15:58:56 TauPan: Put (setf swank:*log-events* t) into ~/.swank.lisp 15:58:58 linux 2.6.29-2-amd64 15:59:32 ok 15:59:44 (debian testing) 16:00:05 tcr: ok, did that... and now? 16:00:55 matimago: And it reminds me of E25K, which is a plus for me :D 16:01:41 TauPan: This should write lots of information into your *inferior-lisp* 16:01:54 hm, do I need to reload slime or something? 16:01:55 p_l: as in the >$1m sun? 16:02:21 TauPan: You have to restart swank 16:02:38 TauPan: (quit) in *inferior-lisp* and then M-x slime 16:02:46 did that, not a lot of information 16:02:46 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:02:47 HG` [n=wells@xdslgc133.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:02:52 Anything new? 16:02:52 rsynnott: yes, as in the giant, tornado-making (really) SunFire E25k :D 16:03:58 TauPan annotated #81698 "info with swank:*log-events* t" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81698#3 16:04:15 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 16:04:35 matemagio: 16 amps 16:04:42 220 V 16:04:43 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.242.57] has joined #lisp 16:04:58 TauPan: M-: (slime-changelog-date) 16:05:24 "2009-06-1" 16:05:42 about like a electrical heater 16:06:23 TauPan: I'm afraid you must debug this down yourself. Look at slime-attempt-connection in slime.el 16:06:42 jthing: and powerful, 300W workstations :D 16:06:45 TauPan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/79366 16:06:59 TauPan: put that in *scratch* and evaluate it, C-M-x 16:07:26 then you can insert (tcr:debugmsg "file=%S" file) after the (let ((file ...)) ...) in slime-attempt-connection 16:07:39 TauPan: The output will be appended into the buffer *TCR* 16:07:57 (you have to reevaluate slime-attempt-connection via C-M-x, then try again running slime) 16:08:09 and debug this down 16:08:42 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:48 ok... thanks for your hints... I think I'm not going to do this today. 16:09:07 TauPan: Manually running the server, and manually connecting to it via slime-connect may work 16:09:15 rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:28 -!- rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:09:55 rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:28 yeah, that might help me debug this... it's 1810 here now, so maybe later today or this weekend... I can also test this on a different debian desktop with almost the same installation. 16:11:37 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-188-098-192-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:43 manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 16:12:23 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:13:25 *tcr* discovers a new CL function he hasn't known of: PHASE 16:14:29 For tracking lunar influences? 16:15:05 Umm... Wow. 16:18:32 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:18:46 -!- couloir [n=chatzill@S0106001a706b09fb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit ["beep"] 16:20:54 perhaps lisp should've been built modular. Allowing for smaller binaries (somewhat like the SQL standard has modules) 16:21:47 what for? 16:22:08 foom: part of my sentence was *Allowing for smaller binaries* 16:23:19 ehh...what'd really be nicer is if the implementations supported shared libraries. 16:24:12 foom: to elaborate a bit: lisp is good for roughly everything. Yet if you use it for scripting-like purposes, you need to launch/load it each time. If you want to easily have multiple micro-services running, it will actually use quite a lot of memory... I *think* it could be better with a modular approach 16:24:12 possibly a tree shaker. ;) 16:24:21 foom: that wil lmost likely be the result of it, yes... 16:24:43 madnificent: I imagine much of the math stuff is a thinish layer over calls to the C lib. (Of course, I should check rather than imagine - but, hey!, this is the internet!) 16:24:59 madnificent: right, as Fade says, people have written tree shakers 16:25:05 -!- matley [n=matley@91.80.235.195] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:25:06 Fade: not really, a tree shaker would remove everything. Say you want to keep a REPL with some capabilities, but not with -say- CLOS, then that would be nice 16:25:17 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@87.78.122.228] has quit ["leaving"] 16:25:26 CL is already quite small as language runtimes go 16:25:31 well, it'd allow explicit inclusion of such features. 16:25:38 (in terms of functionality) 16:25:58 splittist: true, however I saw it in a broader perspective 16:25:58 sbcl needs a code walker if it is to produce samller binaries 16:26:06 samller 16:26:10 how big is the c runtime? 16:26:28 jthing: SB-WALKER not good enough? 16:26:35 irrelevant, it has a linker 16:26:36 jsnell: Are you here? 16:26:42 byef: yes 16:26:48 nyef: yes 16:27:00 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-127-196.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:00 madnificent: fair enough. I just remember being amazed at how deep the math stuff is (perhaps because I hardly use it, whereas I DO tend to use CA*D*R...) 16:27:09 Not yet at any rate 16:27:32 as for shared libs, ECL implements it's fasls this way 16:27:33 *gigamonkey* feels all tingly, having just got off the phone with Donald Knuth. 16:27:34 compared to LispWorks and ACL code walkers 16:27:49 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 16:28:37 part of an image being big, is that it has support for a lot of functions, functions that will probably never be called in the life of that single application. Static languages (which means no repl) can remove that with tree-shaking-like things. A Lisp environment however needs to group the services it will offer to the user. You could remove packages (and shake from there on) or you could say that a lisp needs to support modules. 16:28:38 Modules could allow for an easier evolution of the language too. 16:28:46 as for "remove certain elements", that's how chicken does its "smaller" binaries 16:28:47 ^ I am not entitled to speak about these things 16:28:49 gigamonkey: congrats! 16:28:52 It needs to take a sentral base follow all used functions and exclude everything that isn't used 16:28:54 gigamonkey um, heh, that is pretty darn cool. :) 16:29:13 *splittist* vicariously bathes in gigamonkey's tingle 16:29:20 Better yet, he liked his chapter! (And said it was "very well TeX'ed") 16:29:20 Not sure that came out right... 16:29:34 in chicken, I can tell the compiler to not include REPL, compiler etc. 16:29:37 gigamonkey: epic win lol ;) 16:29:46 madnificent: nobody bothers with tree shakers for languages like C (even though of course ld has one!), because you just use shared libs. 16:30:00 Hmmmm. Why is ERC printing every message twice? 16:30:13 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-50-127-196.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:30:14 madnificent: especially if it's really in rtf... 16:30:17 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:30:19 foom: yes, I'd prefer standardised modules, as it fits the general lisp standard idea (which I like) 16:30:36 minion: logs 16:30:38 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 16:30:44 foom: actually, they do bother, and cause a lot of difference for some programs 16:30:46 Ah, I think I was logged in twice. Weird. 16:31:00 splittist: heh? 16:31:36 gigamonkey: you're really shaken up :) 16:31:45 foom: with properly written static libraries, you basically don't need one, as you only include needed stuff into final image. There's still some shaking in compiler for every code unit 16:33:28 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has quit [] 16:33:38 p_l: I haven't seen anyone recommend the use of static libraries in a long time now. 16:34:11 Static libraries are good for many classes of embedded environments. 16:35:07 All the embedded environments I've ever worked on have either been too small for ANY libraries or big enough they're just standard computers in a small form factor. :) 16:35:10 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:17 but sure, good point. 16:35:25 The problem with many Lisp systems is that they have an amorphous blob of garbage-collected unsharability. 16:36:03 nyef: what if we could dump partial images as kind of "library"? 16:36:43 that's iirc partially what ECL does - you can instruct it to combine its fasls into shared libs (usable by ECL, but not really by others) 16:36:45 It'd be a start, but you'd still need to worry about GC effects. 16:36:56 sbcl doesn't GC stuff in the core file 16:37:11 It doesn't? 16:37:23 nope, that lives in the higest, "permanent" generation 16:37:36 at least on gencgc archs 16:37:45 nyef: afaik when generating core file you do all GC stuff, then dump it and possibly load it by mmap() of core file, AFAIK 16:37:49 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcz124.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:37:52 mcspiff [n=irchon@DC3F2.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 16:37:56 Including, of course, the stuff that really should be discarded after cold-init? 16:38:38 /msg nameserver help 16:38:46 It's counterproductive to move stuff around in the core's mmaped area, unless you're really tossing a *lot* out. 16:38:54 nyef: it doesn't really matter in case of mmap 16:39:06 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-188-098-192-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:39:13 Right, right... 16:39:53 thoug making sure that stuff not needed after coldinit is in neatly-marked area could allow you to unmap or madvise(DONT_NEED) it 16:40:23 Right, it's a pervasive memory management problem. 16:40:29 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:34 Just sorting the memory allocation by usage would help. 16:40:38 And also at runtime. :) 16:41:13 wouldn't shared libraries be a huge help if you'd use a lisp to build an operating system with too? 16:41:18 -!- mcspiff [n=irchon@DC3F2.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:41:48 madnificent: I was thinking of OS-level GC not long ago :P 16:42:02 put heavily used things together, separate from required but not often touched stuff. Apparently being careful in code memory layout can really help some workloads. 16:42:22 p_l: there has been some talk about a lisp-based OS... I'm rather interested in that (I lack the knowledge though) 16:42:43 madnificent: this one wasn't really Lisp-OS, but rather a weird mix 16:43:05 p_l: care to elaborate? 16:43:11 foom: given how anything bigger moved to ccNUMA, locality of memory references became quite important 16:43:41 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:44:20 madnificent: General, systemwide GC support (with hooks for language-specific parts), supporting 4 different runtimes: Haskell, Lisp, Erlang, with Forth runtime thrown into mix at low level :) 16:45:01 p_l: sounds very cool (but hard) work 16:45:04 no shared libraries by themselves, but systemwide GC allowing to share code objects 16:45:30 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:45:59 madnificent: I'm not touching that for now, unless I finish at least software emulator to run it on ;-( 16:46:02 *;-) 16:46:18 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:46:30 p_l: What hardware platform? 16:47:02 nyef: whatever horror my adventures in MMIX-land end up with 16:47:11 Ah. 16:47:49 nyef: Kinda started from the fact that I'd need some firmware if I want to make it into hw 16:48:48 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:17 though I guess I could drop in OpenFirmware 16:49:44 Guest79318 [n=greg@18.164.1.158] has joined #lisp 16:49:49 -!- reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has left #lisp 16:50:24 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:56 nyef: Anyway, the idea was basically "Let's see what OS we could make on top of L4 memory model if GC'ed langauges where to be main languages in use" 16:52:29 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:53:05 Hrm... Garbage-collected, tagged Forth... 16:53:49 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:17 I have it! I'll let the University of Edinburg pay for my Cray. They have always been drueling for my work on integrate and fire pulse coupled oscillators (as a mens of simpilifying reasoning over clusters of neurons) anyways 16:55:01 jthing: You're in Edinburgh? 16:55:09 No Oslo 16:55:25 but that can easilly change 16:56:09 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:56:13 jthing: "drooling" (unless you mean 'duelling' or 'drilling'). Because you've used it twice in the last little while. HTH! 16:56:52 indeed splittist: my spelling sucks 16:57:21 -!- jlf [n=user@adsl-66-121-24-153.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:57:27 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C236.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:57:39 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:57:58 Evidently the expense claims of a successful academic far outstrip those of a mere MP :-) 16:58:01 luckely my math is somewat better 16:58:29 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-79-19.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 16:58:40 ZabaQ: Except of what academics spend it on :P 16:59:29 at least the ones in science. I don't know where the funding might go for liberal arts... 16:59:52 (literature etc., I can see at least the reason behind some of the more "artsy" ;-)) 17:02:41 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:03:28 oops. They just discovered that the millitary does illegal surveilance (at Jørstadmoen) 17:04:03 I was one of the people who set that up.. 17:04:10 lol 17:05:40 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:06:12 ZabaQ` [n=johnc@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 17:07:51 -!- okflo [n=user@91-115-80-193.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:08:53 -!- mega1 [n=mega@pool-04fa6.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:09:10 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:09:22 -!- ZabaQ` [n=johnc@playboxgames.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:09:22 The-Kenn1 [n=moritz@p5087A4D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:33 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-26-144-229.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:35 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.242.57] has quit [] 17:09:48 you americains have the 'patriot act' 17:10:05 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-26-144-229.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:10:13 jthing: on topic if you please. 17:10:52 sigh, very well 17:10:58 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:11:08 *gigamonkey* wonders how much Lisp is still running deep in the bowels of NSA or CIA systems. 17:11:34 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-26-144-229.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:25 Hunh. Beirc fails to run in almost the exact same way that Closure does. 17:12:30 gigamonkey: that sound you can't hear are the stealth helicopters coming to answer your question... 17:12:48 well the ANSI CL developement was funded by DARPA (defence advanced research..) 17:13:01 md1 [n=user@stip-srk131.195-146-143.telecom.sk] has joined #lisp 17:14:03 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@92-6.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [""Wait! You can't come in here....""] 17:14:33 jthing: DARPA afaik funds anything that might be of use (minus certain bureaucracy limits, of course) 17:14:54 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/session] has joined #lisp 17:15:26 including the WWW, initial desigh by the RAND cooperation 17:15:47 gigamonkey "... is /still/ running..."? 17:15:52 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:55 man you are naive :) 17:16:14 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:16:22 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087A4D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:16:52 WWW was CERN thing, ARPANET was created both as study of networks that can withstand losing nodes as well as work in improving communication... 17:17:34 sorry WWW was CERN, inet infrastructure was RAND initially 17:17:55 the old DARPANET 17:18:12 initial design was RAND, infrastructure was BBN. And ARPANET, not DARPANET. Military part is MILNET 17:18:48 MILNET is separate from INTERNET 17:19:20 and you are not supposed to know about it 17:19:22 yeah, moved in circa 3 years after switch to IPv4. Your point being? 17:19:32 -!- Guest79318 is now known as sellout 17:20:49 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-22-207.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:21:00 -!- ZabaQ [n=johnc@playboxgames.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:21:18 also, I'm not sure but I wouldn't be surprised if MILNET is closest to v6 switch 17:21:51 Nor would I ;) 17:22:24 So, it just occurred to me. 1D textures are for gradients, aren't they? 17:22:32 But there is probably less need 17:22:43 jthing: It's mandated for all new equipment 17:24:37 KingNato [n=patno@84-217-6-4.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:06 hey KingNato, ltns 17:25:09 -!- merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has quit [] 17:25:18 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@proxy.emea.fedex.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:25:47 saikat [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 17:26:49 p_i: now will you please stop mentioning MILNET 17:28:07 national security, that wrap 17:29:19 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [] 17:30:13 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:30:23 antoni` [n=user@137.pool85-53-37.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 17:31:02 jthing: not my national security. ^_^ 17:32:54 "< jthing> p_l: now will you please stop mentioning MILNET" ahahahaha 17:33:02 need to put that into fortunes :D 17:33:12 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 17:35:10 if one tries to censor you, shout as loud as you can :) 17:36:01 madnificent: I have more worries about speaking than about being censored ;-) 17:36:31 good thing no-one in family ended with actual security clearance :) 17:36:32 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslgc133.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:37:36 (and I don't have anything to do with national security or anything...) 17:37:48 hey madnificent, how is your lisp game going? 17:37:56 p_l: ah, but part of this irc network is in the place whose national secuirity it is 17:38:30 rsynnott: you think I really care? All that stuff I talked about was public domain knowledge anyway :P 17:38:30 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.219.35] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:38:46 well, yep, I did wonder why anyone would care that much... 17:39:56 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:06 milanj [n=milan@79.101.251.174] has joined #lisp 17:40:12 I'd be more concerned about that 70G torrent of army manuals, warfare guides, IED plans etc. 17:40:29 oh, dear, did they leak one? 17:40:42 p_i: just my new satanistic self 17:41:06 rsynnott: It's probably assembled from stuff you can get anyway, but it includes all training manuals that aren't utterly device-specific, I think 17:41:07 p_i: do he oposite, be the human 17:41:14 rotfl 17:41:26 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:41:47 I'll have to go over the contents one day 17:43:25 RAND's collection of original internet papers is in fact worth going over 17:43:42 all public now 17:43:49 CalJohn [n=pg99@78-86-93-35.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:43:54 -!- CalJohn [n=pg99@78-86-93-35.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 17:43:55 I think I've seen them in library 17:43:57 sellout- [n=greg@dhcp-18-111-19-18.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:44:07 psheldr [n=user@217.13.173.118] has joined #lisp 17:44:29 though a lot of that stuff is public domain anyway, isn't it? Army manuals and such 17:44:31 from the RAND web cite 17:44:54 rsynnott: yeah, just not as easy to get as "public doman" might imply 17:45:51 and people get freaked out when they hear you're reading that kind of stuff :D 17:46:22 did they ever acknoledge Echelon in the end? :) 17:47:02 rsynnott: yes 17:47:19 rsynnott: isn't knowledge about Echelon widely spread? 17:47:37 after the australian prime minister acknoleged it 17:47:40 I remember computer newspapers discussing how they expect it to work 17:47:51 during the initial period that the EU was investigating it, there was apparently some sort of gag order on the US press 17:47:58 as in "how the hell do they think they will actually work" 17:48:16 -!- jyujin [n=mdeining@82.113.121.166] has quit [] 17:48:38 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 17:48:45 the commonwealth and the USA were al part of project Echelon 17:49:03 well, Britain, Australia, Canada and New Zealand 17:49:09 hardly the commonwealth :) 17:49:22 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 17:49:23 the gemans and the french (krauts and froggies) have their own system 17:49:54 to make it funnier, as telco employee I did have to sign off that from company POV, the data I could get my hands on is Top Secret and unless requested from me by law, I can't give it to anyone or use it at all... 17:50:38 the Swiss have one for FAXES, which is very retro of them 17:51:03 maybe they are admitting such schemes don't work in practice? 17:51:15 Anyway, here in UK they are making another pass at echelon, it seems 17:51:22 GOD is such a lod concept 17:51:32 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 17:51:33 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-78-19.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:51:39 Today Big Brother is the State! 17:51:51 and that is the truth 17:52:23 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 17:52:31 yes drew: I will try to stay on topic 17:53:37 -!- sellout [n=greg@18.164.1.158] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:54:25 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.168.12] has joined #lisp 17:54:26 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:55:51 *jthing* can practically hear NSA computer's trickeling off this irc stream 17:56:38 jthing: it's cackling with amusement 17:57:45 does common-lisp have an easy means of sending an OS command 17:57:46 I'll just listen to kraftwerk 17:57:54 finarfin [n=finarfin@fw.resman.pl] has joined #lisp 17:58:08 Guthur: It's implementation-dependent. 17:58:08 hello 17:58:11 Guthur yes, but it's implementation dependant. 17:58:18 Guthur: no, but almost all implementations do 17:59:00 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:59:01 Aha! Finally got an event notification. 17:59:15 implementation? as in OS platform 17:59:27 So, what is your implementation Guthur 17:59:29 Guthur: As in SBCL/CMUCL/LW/ACL/ECL/SCL etc. 17:59:31 as in lisp implementation. sbcl, ecl, etc. 17:59:32 -!- mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-076-182-103-085.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [No route to host] 18:00:03 -!- antoni` [n=user@137.pool85-53-37.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:00:08 Hrm... And I can get "dock" notifications... I wonder why I'm not getting hotkey notifications? 18:00:43 what would be the implementation for emacs + slime + debian, i don't remember actually chosing anything else 18:01:01 SBCL probably 18:01:29 -!- saikat [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 18:01:45 SBCL is a favorite around here 18:01:50 Guther: eval (lisp-implementation-type) 18:01:59 er, Guthur 18:02:09 gigamonkey you read my mind, i was about to ask :) 18:02:39 Guthur: Slime tells you, it's *slime-repl * 18:03:12 Or in a .lisp buffer, you'll see Slime[sbcl] or Slime[clisp] in the modeline 18:03:25 jdz [n=jdz@84.237.142.223] has joined #lisp 18:03:30 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-74-132.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:03:49 CLISP sucks 18:04:03 too bytecoded too slow 18:04:03 when should i use an alist and when should i use a hash table? 18:04:20 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:28 if the size is > 100 use a hash table 18:04:34 thanks 18:04:45 HET2: I always use hash-tables because their interface is nicer 18:04:47 otherwise a alist is more efficent 18:05:06 tcr: yes but i also need to process the contents of the table sequentially after i've finished building it 18:05:17 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:20 HE2: alists are also nice if you want to easily save them to a file. 18:05:28 I thought the threshhold was six, not one hundred? 18:05:39 #$@!#$ I can't type. HET2 18:05:48 gigamonkey: it's ok ;) 18:05:52 nop, about 100 on a modern processor 18:06:00 nyef: a couple of dozens I think. I recall pascal costanza saying 64 18:06:09 cumputing hash values is expensive 18:06:21 on a cumputer everything is expensive 18:06:38 ... especially cleanup? 18:06:43 ... 18:06:46 nyef wins! 18:06:51 nyef: yeah dude, ever looked inside your keyboard? 18:07:08 computing hash values might be expensive, but traversing a pointer chain is going to be pretty damn bad too! 18:07:35 HET2: The attempt would destroy it, given that it's a laptop keyboard and thus held together by plastic welds. 18:07:38 It is! hence the 100 limit 18:07:51 nyef: hence expensive ;) 18:08:20 you are free to clock it for yourselves 18:08:42 It also, obviously depends how you're using the data. If you're associating values with keys what you already know are unique and then you're going to do something with all of them, then an alist is probably cheaper. 18:09:05 You might also find it cheaper to build a custom hash-table implementation. 18:09:15 following a pointer in Lisp is cheap 18:09:29 Cheap, modulo cache effects. 18:09:33 jthing: no it's not 18:09:50 cons cells usualy reside in a special place in memory 18:09:52 following a pointer is expensive in modern hardware. 18:09:57 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:09:58 gigamonkey: Why? the vector underneath a hash-table will be placed sequentially in memory, and will probably fit in cache, too. 18:10:02 -!- sellout- [n=greg@dhcp-18-111-19-18.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:10:10 non-cached location, sure 18:10:10 foom: it will all fit into cache 18:10:30 tcr jthing it was clisp, sorry had to go afk there for a bit 18:10:33 jthing: you can assert that all you want. :p 18:10:50 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:11:00 I assert nothing, I will check your claim foom 18:12:19 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:46 -!- Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.162.168.12] has quit [Success] 18:12:59 At least on my processor it all get's swapped into cache after the third read 18:16:59 other results? 18:17:26 tcr: well, you have to do the hash computations on insert, was what I was thinking about. 18:17:31 Do you need SW? 18:18:24 it seems to be POSIX but i can't find out how to make a system call, nothing obvious from the clisp docs 18:19:12 Guthur, do you mean http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes/shell.html ? 18:19:14 I parsed "1/2 to 1/3 of C" as "one half to one third of the speed of light" 18:19:37 instead of relative to the performance of another programming language 18:20:02 lnostdal ya that would be it, thankyou very much :) 18:20:25 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:20:37 http://www.cnet.com/topic/cpu/monitor.html 18:21:24 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:21:34 my favorite: http://download.cnet.com/CPU-Monitor/3000-12565_4-10762833.html?tag=lia;rcol 18:21:47 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:21:59 YMMV 18:23:04 -!- rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 18:23:31 benny` [n=benny@i577A08DA.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:23:31 http://souptonuts.sourceforge.net/performance_tutorial.html 18:23:55 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A2CE5.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:25:01 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:25:22 *jthing* gloats 18:25:36 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B317735.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.94.1"] 18:25:41 It's a C thing 18:25:56 dys [n=andreas@p5B317735.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:58 -!- ask [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:26:10 does mapcar guarantee sequential processing? 18:26:18 yes 18:26:19 no 18:26:31 -!- prip [n=_prip@host82-194-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:26:34 go figure 18:26:46 well yes, but not on the processor. That is up to the impleentation 18:27:10 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 18:27:17 jthing: if i have (mapcar 'print '(1 2)) will 1 always come before 2? 18:27:23 yes 18:27:26 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:27:27 :) 18:27:49 then when should i use loop for x in list and when should i use mapcar 18:28:07 it's a matter of style 18:28:10 use taste 18:28:11 when appropriate 18:28:27 stassats: what is appropriate when though 18:28:27 vage enough for you 18:28:29 and also depends on what you are trying to do :) 18:28:32 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:28:34 welcome tolisp! 18:28:39 lol 18:29:21 i guess the loop syntax is more convenient with an anonymouse code block 18:29:56 loop is good 18:30:12 i have (setq list-1 (list 1 2 3 4 5 6)), then (setq a (nth 3 list-1)) anddd iwant do (setf (nth 3 list-1) 10) so that "a" is changed too...can i? 18:30:28 many of the functional folks will shunn it like the plague 18:30:39 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.177] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:31:09 HET2: i use mapcar when passing already existing function with one argument 18:31:11 finarfin: that looks like a questionablle modification 18:31:45 finarfin: normally I would return a new list for that 18:31:53 when doing something more complicated, then loop, if doing only side-effects, then dolist 18:32:02 -!- rtra [n=user@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:32:09 finarfin: You can't because there aren't enough layers of indirection. 18:32:34 nyef? 18:32:37 i want some shared structure like pointers in C 18:33:05 you could do that with nthcdr 18:33:19 list of vertices and list of faces 18:33:22 you can use conses as pointers 18:33:25 but you probably shouldn't.. 18:33:36 then connect vertices from faces list to vertices list 18:33:39 [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.177] has joined #lisp 18:34:17 hey should I mention classes here 18:34:19 finarfin: So you want to be able to alter your geometry by changing the vertexes? 18:34:23 yes 18:34:59 So long as you destructively modify your vertexes instead of wholesale replace them, you should be more-or-less okay. 18:35:03 cause list's seem like the totally wrong abstaction 18:35:20 jthing: They aren't. 18:36:22 sorry for stupid question...how do i destrucively modify vertexes? without changin list structure ? 18:36:25 The heart of my model renderer is a DOLIST over faces, then a DOLIST over each vertex in the face, then some APPLYs for each vertex (one for the texture-space coordinates and one for the 3d-space coordinates). 18:36:36 aw what the fuck use a XML processing lib like cxml and process into classes 18:37:11 ok I said it 18:37:21 yes nyef...something like that :) 18:37:32 minion: paste? 18:37:32 paste: lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations 18:37:33 mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:37:34 (Yes, because an XML processing lib is really helpful when you're not dealing with XML.) 18:38:12 you only need an XML producing lib 18:38:31 You can define data dependencies in anything you want yes 18:38:47 *nyef* shakes his head. 18:39:04 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-74-132.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:39:27 YMMV 18:39:33 apperently 18:40:54 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:41:42 prip [n=_prip@host212-129-dynamic.52-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:41:59 *p_l* should have known that cp /proc//pagemap //some-file wasn't a good idea 18:42:08 |Grub| [n=win7@217.149.190.177] has joined #lisp 18:42:41 p_i: systems crash! again.. 18:42:47 jthing: nope, it didn't 18:43:03 but I quickly filled my /tmp/ with SBCLs pagemap 18:43:11 lol' 18:43:25 core can do that 18:45:55 -!- Orest is now known as Orest^bnc 18:46:34 -!- Orest^bnc is now known as Orest 18:46:45 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 18:47:13 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 18:47:14 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Client Quit] 18:47:54 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 18:48:08 fundamental [n=fundamen@24-148-122-247.ip.mhcable.com] has joined #lisp 18:49:31 -!- fundamental [n=fundamen@24-148-122-247.ip.mhcable.com] has left #lisp 18:49:42 lnostdal: I think I might get something to analyze memory sharing between forked sbcls 18:49:44 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:49:47 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 18:49:50 -!- coderdad_ is now known as coderdad 18:52:08 saikat__ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 18:52:10 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:52:19 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:52:34 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [] 18:52:48 how can i convince format to print a cons pair like this: (format nil "~A" ("asdf" . "bsdf")) 18:52:54 I saw some discussion on the ECL list regarding floating point arithmetic in relation to NaN/Inf/-Inf. 18:53:15 HET2: you need to quote the cons 18:53:18 There was a claim SBCL implements that without breaking or being non-standards compliant. 18:53:34 the documentation of (/ 0.0 0) says 18:53:43 "might signal DIVISION-BY-ZERO" 18:53:47 and it also says 18:53:48 frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:53:50 dlowe: i am receiving the cons as output from alexandria:hash-table-alist 18:53:55 "might signal ARITHMETIC-ERROR" 18:54:04 dlowe: is there a better way to format print the contents of a hash table? 18:54:05 that doesn't imply it returns either. 18:54:23 ah, the mighty might 18:54:49 so, anything is acceptable there? 18:55:11 Is that how SBCL implements IEEE float operations conformingly? 18:55:20 HET2: that works fine on my bo 18:55:24 HET2: box 18:55:25 Or did I misunderstand the discussion? 18:55:55 dlowe: I get The value "bsdf" is not of type LIST. 18:55:55 : 18:55:57 :/ 18:56:17 HET2: I'm on sbcl 18:56:32 me too 18:56:54 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:56:58 (format nil "~A" '("asdf" . "bsdf")) works 18:57:03 strange, I get the same error when I type just ("asdf"."bsdf") on the repl 18:57:31 quote it 18:57:37 that's what I said. :p 18:57:44 oh 18:58:01 sorry 18:58:51 -!- saikat__ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 18:59:28 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.177] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:59:56 that should not work 19:00:41 anyhow it is crappy programming if I may be so bold 19:01:55 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaE6r9JhvQU 19:02:14 in the mean time let me amuse you with some satanism 19:02:29 jthing: crappy programming? 19:02:43 jthing: which part 19:02:46 yes 19:03:02 (format nil "~A" '("asdf" . "bsdf")) 19:03:09 HET2: pay no attention 19:03:41 merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has joined #lisp 19:03:41 seriously bad 19:03:51 uh no 19:04:01 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:04:34 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.168.12] has quit ["Log this!"] 19:04:53 Is there some general API for getting memory addresses of lisp objects? 19:05:34 "why would you need this?" 19:06:30 stassats: tracing memory usage and sharing of memory between forked processes 19:07:14 not for programming in CL, but rather for monitoring what happens :D 19:07:28 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-19-141.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:07:36 there's certainly implementation-specific APIs for that 19:08:24 foom: yeah, I was just thinking aloud before plunging into sbcl-specific code 19:08:32 like sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address 19:10:10 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:11:05 stassats: thx 19:11:27 i was looking in wrong place (going over sb-vm, heh) 19:11:48 *stassats* looked at the sources of print-unreadable-object 19:12:44 -!- CrazyEddy [n=adaptati@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:13:00 hrm how do i print the cdr of a pair when the cdr is not a list 19:13:04 stassats: get's the point 19:13:08 do you use lisp as youre daily job or is it only a hobby? 19:13:27 (print (cdr pair)) 19:13:46 *stassats* uses lisp as his daily hobby 19:14:06 ~A and assoc RAW I don't think so 19:14:10 you mean you can actually get a job doing lisp!?! 19:14:18 So does/me 19:14:20 finarfin: I'm just now writing something that might help me land internship, other than that a hobby for now, hoping to use it in next job and certainly going to use it if I go with a startup 19:14:23 So does /me 19:14:38 jthing: assoc RAW? 19:15:09 stassats: i'd like to do something along the lines of (format nil "~{~A ~A~}" '((a . b))) 19:15:15 ("thing" . ""other thing") is raw 19:15:31 jthing: yes but this formatting is not the one i want 19:15:38 do the car, ddr bit 19:15:48 cdr 19:15:48 huh 19:16:24 how can i cdr in the format mini language though 19:16:30 wrap it in a a let and do a car cdr on it 19:16:37 oh man 19:16:42 simlple 19:16:53 (format t "~/your-cdring-format-directive/" cons) 19:17:07 no no 19:17:18 nothing that comple 19:17:21 you only need to write your-cdring-format-directive 19:17:23 complex 19:17:55 you have heard of functions yes 19:18:02 so use them! 19:18:28 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-78-19.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:18:55 stassats: what's ~/ 19:18:56 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-92-48.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:19:12 clhs ~/ 19:19:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ced.htm 19:19:31 ah now blaiming this on me is all to simple.. 19:19:36 lol 19:20:35 hmm 19:20:37 (defun format-cdr (stream cons a b) (declare (ignore a b)) (princ (cdr cons) stream)) 19:20:42 (format t "~/format-cdr/" '(a . b)) 19:20:45 better 19:20:52 stassats: yeah, clutter up my name space with pretty printing crap :) 19:21:42 at least that works 19:22:01 portably 19:23:08 heh, found that someone already implemented what I was trying to do 19:23:25 URL? 19:23:40 A friend of mine is allergic to emacs and desperately wants something slime-like in vim. Can you guys recommend something (different that visiting an allergologist)? 19:24:10 viper-mode? 19:24:12 Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.5.188] has joined #lisp 19:24:15 jthing: http://selenic.com/repo/pagemap/ <--- it's general purpose, not only for lisp, to monitor sharing of pages in linux 19:24:19 antoszka: Nekthuth? 19:24:25 antoszka: visit M-x doctor 19:24:33 And allergologist might be good solution 19:24:38 foom: Says it doesn't work with slime for some reason. 19:24:46 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:24:46 schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:24:53 antoszka: vim does not really support interpreter interaction very well 19:24:56 antoszka: oh well. :) 19:24:58 stassats: That's one suggestion I explicitely said I don't want :) 19:24:59 antoszka: my special forces friends would be glad to place a bullet in your head 19:25:05 sorry 19:25:20 get a bit agressive here 19:25:23 jthing: Why mine? 19:25:23 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f53b0.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 19:25:28 antoszka: it's not an allergologist! 19:25:29 jthing: I'm not the one. 19:25:38 it's a psychiatrist 19:25:38 ulgen4a [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:25:41 but emacs is really the best choice 19:25:42 stassats: Right :). 19:25:50 jthing: I'm using it. 19:26:12 M-x psychoanalyze-pinhead 19:26:30 dcrawford: it's no fun anymore 19:26:31 been there done that 19:26:41 p_l: Thanks, will pass that onto him. 19:27:10 the problem with satanist's is that they are serious.. 19:27:17 damn us 19:27:17 -!- ulgen4a is now known as mfk 19:27:45 jthing: Apart from that I think that you special forces friends' bullet would go right through my head rather than stay there. 19:27:46 ... hah. Existing scripts are really demo quality ;_; 19:27:50 s/you/your/ 19:28:09 antoszka: I got out of the practice of vim and Lisp a while ago, but you have looked at Limp and Slim-vim, right? (they were after my time) 19:28:26 antoszka: In your case probably, YES 19:28:34 antoszka: Bullets *should* stay in the head, dissipating more energy in the target... 19:29:03 antoszka: I also new a guy that embedded ECL in vim a while back... don't know if that went into these projects though 19:29:03 you have nowhere near pissed me off enough 19:29:06 jthing: What's that I said that makes you aggressive towards me? 19:29:14 Yeah well my satellite-based laser will destroy the bullet before it goes in your head. 19:29:20 antoszka: don't pay attention 19:29:37 drforr: That's a discussion for #ballistics, but you're probably right. 19:29:56 jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 19:30:03 stassats: Will try. 19:30:23 antoszka: I'm pretty much pissed off at the world. You are a part of that world. Abait not a particcularly important one. 19:30:32 drforr: I prefer bullets whith a diameter larger then the head I'm shooting at 19:30:38 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-111.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 19:31:30 jthing: Still, don't see the reason for ad hominem crap, especially that I was talking on behalf of an entirely different hominem. 19:31:39 If you could change common lisps hash syntax what would you change it to? 19:31:49 merimus: like Tsar Bomba? 19:31:57 antoszka: what adhominem crap? 19:31:57 ... can't we just move to high-power energy beams? 19:32:06 rotfl 19:32:30 jbjohns: *what* hash syntax? 19:32:37 foom: exactly 19:32:39 p_l: for making popcorn? 19:32:44 *sykopomp* likes the idea of shooting busses through railguns. 19:32:44 stassats: mmm moab 19:33:12 jthing: Just read back. Or better  forget it, and get to grips with more important parts of whatever pisses you off. 19:33:18 I never insulted you as a person antoszka. 19:33:24 stassats: thanks for your help 19:33:27 sykopomp: but yes... I was thinking more like the naval railgun 19:33:30 jbjohns something like #{(foo bar) (foo bar) (foo bar)} seems the obvious candidate 19:33:31 Would you like me to start? 19:33:32 antoszka: leave it now. 19:34:14 stassats: I think my idea of "energy beam" would be rather bad for popcorn ;P 19:34:35 p_l: worked in real genius 19:34:38 merimus: yeah. 19:34:49 antoszka: I never said that. and the backlog confirms it. 19:35:31 merimus: they probably used microwave beam. I'm thinking of "neutronium", aka beam of pure neutrons. in big quantity. at high speed. BOOM 19:35:52 they used a laser beam 19:35:54 if you are pissed off. And I DO that top people. At least let it be for the RIGHT reason. 19:36:28 foom: yea, that part is pretty easy. Now how to access elements? How to set them? 19:36:31 Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:36:57 stassats: lasers are meh. they have so many problems with atmosphere 19:37:19 what's the address to add clisp interprter in eclipse? 19:37:29 p_l: it works in the movies! it must be good! 19:37:37 p_l: I'm kinda old fashioned... high speed projectiles work good enough for me 19:37:50 Bigshot_: http://bitfauna.com/projects/cusp/ 19:37:56 but, enough off-topic 19:38:05 minion: movitz 19:38:06 asksol [n=ask@114.242.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:38:07 movitz: Movitz is a Common Lisp implementation that targets the x86 PC architecture "on-the-metal". http://www.cliki.net/movitz 19:38:10 merimus: Well, this *is* a high speed projectile.. it just looks like a beam ;-) 19:38:29 p_l: hah! ok, I have to concede that point. 19:39:00 p_l: the "highest" speed projectile even 19:39:02 smithzv: He has looked both at limp and slimv, which seem to be buggy beyond any usability. Maybe that nekthuth stuff will be better. 19:39:03 what are you guys trying to kill? A single person, or a war? 19:39:05 elias` [n=c@host217-42-207-213.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:39:26 *sykopomp* likes the idea of shooting busses through railguns... at watermelons. 19:39:36 p_l: is this cusp "same" as http://clisp.cons.org/ this? 19:39:56 You certainly don't have as much of a problem with aiming... 19:40:04 if it's a war than projectiles aren't efficient enough. Lasers would only be good if you can have the ones from Babylon 5 19:40:05 Bigshot_: CUSP is a plugin for eclipse that lets you plug into common lisp. 19:40:20 jbjohns: to kill all lisp competitors 19:40:26 if's big enough and moving fast enough... it'll get the job done 19:40:28 k 19:40:37 it uses SBCL, as the website says. 19:41:29 it uses swank, isn't it? 19:41:38 stassats: why kill off lisp competitors? Lisp just needs a bit more help to firm up the libraries and implementation. I wouldn't want it to go mainstream. At least not until I've used it to get my F U money 19:41:41 Bigshot_: it can use clisp, or anything that supports swank 19:42:09 jbjohns: they didn't use lasers in babylon 5 19:42:21 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-111.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:42:35 X-Scale2 [i=email@89-180-130-239.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 19:42:43 Laser defense grid, I thought. 19:42:59 Though I prefer the orbital anvil deployment system. 19:43:07 p_l: What was it then? Those people with the bone heads, their ship could just make a laser that cut through space, cutting the other ships in half. Those spider people had it too, and probably the big ET things 19:43:19 jbjohns: particle beams 19:43:43 yeah, also known as free electron lasers :) 19:43:48 lasers are invisible in space ;-) 19:44:19 crowbar launching satelites :) 19:44:26 and afaik the show even referenced it as beam weapons, with some goon from EA drooling over the concept of getting ones that are at least as good as Minbari 19:44:37 so i'll have to download cygwin to run clisp? 19:44:42 on vista 19:45:09 Bigshot_: Maybe you want to look at Lisp-in-a-box? 19:45:10 p_l: it became visible with a movie camera 19:45:25 Bigshot_: clisp and Common Lisp are not really the same thing. 19:45:33 Bigshot_: clisp is an implementation of Common Lisp 19:45:36 (not that I know they have Vista installs at all...) 19:45:39 Bigshot_: I recommend getting a different system than clisp. Clozure works fine (you just need to be careful about running 32bit or 64bit) 19:45:39 -!- yrzzbe [i=7cd95d1c@gateway/web/freenode/x-f2e600f8fcbb32d2] has quit ["qwebirc exception: Buffer overflow."] 19:45:39 there are many implementations of Common Lisp 19:45:42 SBCL is one of them. 19:46:28 stassats: Babylon 5's author was too picky for that - there's even explanation behind the "sound in space" thing that fits real life 19:46:50 I run SBCL+emacs+slime on windows XP. Works ok, just a single network problem. Oh and the error messages for networking are also problematic 19:47:00 -!- |Grub| [n=win7@217.149.190.177] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:47:10 phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 19:47:20 the single network problem is that read-char-nohang doesn't work as expected. It hangs 19:47:24 *p_l* runs Clozure 64bit on NT6.1. Haven't tested it too much, but didn't look like it's going to crash 19:48:06 In a few weeks I get my mac though. Hopefully all will be better then 19:48:32 you can also get corman cl, which allows you to use runtime easily (the IDE has 30 day trial), and full license is cheap, without any strings attached 19:48:36 I run 64 bit sbcl on ubuntu 19:49:03 on the whole 64 bit seems more stable 19:49:07 *sykopomp* should probably switch to 64bit at some point. 19:49:07 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.116.224] has joined #lisp 19:49:31 the new mac is more 64 bit.... friendly 19:49:41 on a clean install of 64-bit ubuntu, I get this in sbcl - "invalid magic number in core: 0xf145342434c should have been 0x5342434c" any ideas why ? 19:49:55 64-bit linux version is elder 19:50:04 rather, older 19:50:10 you have the 32 bit core 19:50:31 okflo [n=user@91-115-82-84.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:50:43 hmm.. that's strange... i did a fresh install... maybe i need to reinstall 19:50:56 get the lot trough clbuild 19:51:06 and recomile it 19:51:55 So does anyone have ideas how they would like hash access/setting to look like? I really really like how clojure does it, but that's a lisp-1. I can't think of any improvement for what CL has besides maybe a better name than "gethash" 19:52:18 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@150.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:52:22 leave gethash alone! 19:52:25 guys i came across this binary http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=1355&package_id=1340&release_id=635476 which one should i download so that i can start programming in lisp :-) 19:52:27 you don't know what it's been through. 19:52:28 ;_; 19:52:38 i am using vista 19:52:41 jbjohns: no clue anmd don't go there 19:52:56 everyone keeps saying bad things about gethash, but they don't understand. Gethash works hard for you, and all you can do is crap all over it! 19:53:00 ;_; 19:53:00 jbjohns: get-hash? 19:53:06 This is not about premature optimations 19:53:08 jmbr [n=jmbr@38.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:53:14 this is LISP 19:53:26 is there a good lisp library that will process a template file and turn it into a lisp function that outputs a string? just like how ruby on rails has these template files with mostly html and some ruby mixed in, and a program that will process that file to generate HTML 19:53:29 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 19:53:56 gonzojive, cl-who 19:54:03 minion: html-template? 19:54:04 html-template: HTML-TEMPLATE is a Library to use templates much like Perl's HTML::Template. http://www.cliki.net/html-template 19:54:09 Bigshot_: one would guess that you want the one for your platform :) 19:54:14 gethash works well, the name just seems inconsistant 19:54:18 gonzojive: cxml 19:54:43 jbjohns: the name is fine. Changing it sounds gratuitous. 19:54:45 *stassats* always mistypes it as "get-hash", so i'd change it to that name 19:54:55 sykopomp: but what's the meaning of "small" and "jitc" i have i386 platform 19:55:03 and big 19:55:10 I've been wondering for a while about a "batteries included" for common lisp. But this is almost certainly the wrong crowd for such a conversation 19:55:13 ... An -actual- i386? 19:55:14 Bigshot_: I guess one is small, one is big, and one has a JIT compiler :) 19:55:32 big has more libraries? 19:55:40 jbjohns: batteries included is fine. What's wrong with batteries included? 19:55:43 Bigshot_: something like that, yes 19:55:44 gonzojive: cl-emb 19:56:02 there's a difference between 'batteries included' and 'let's s/gethash/somethingelse/ for the hell of it' 19:56:03 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068084215.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:39 awesome, thanks for all the suggestions. cl-emb looks perfect 19:56:45 s/gethash/href/ ? 19:56:56 'batteries included' would be something like lisp-in-a-box, and a bunch of 'standard' libraries included in the package (such as cl-ppcre, bthreads, trivial-garbage, etc) 19:57:02 sykopomp: Well, I've used python and I was amazed at how quick I could get up and running with it. The reason was because everything was so consistently named. So what I had in mind was taking as much of the existing libraries as I could and changing the name to follow closer to a python type name. Using lisp conventions of course 19:57:25 jbjohns: take a look at the horrible abortion that is YTools. 19:57:35 like instead of searching for "hunchentoot" you would just import "net-httpd" or something like that 19:57:50 jbjohns: i think lisp has some other problems, besides names 19:58:07 stassats: I think you underestimate it. The names are really all over the place 19:58:30 hi, is this built in? (defun cut-last (lst) (reverse (cdr (reverse lst)))) 19:58:33 I don't know how you can say that! progv makes perfect sense, it's just like prog1, prog2, and progn! 19:58:41 jbjohns: How would I know that I want to import net-httpd, and not 'http', 'httpd', 'webserver', 'web-server', etc etc? 19:58:52 -!- Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.5.188] has left #lisp 19:58:55 jbjohns: are you also going to fix the implementations so that improper names don't leak through macroexpand? 19:58:58 and people should have names like in Zamyatin's "We"? 19:58:58 it returns the return value of the vth element, right? :) 19:59:12 I think CL has the most powerful facilities. With it's condition system, CLOS, etc. I mean, scheme has continuations, but if I think of what I would use them for, it would only be the things CL has already 19:59:23 (butlast (list 1 2 3)) => (1 2) 19:59:24 that? 19:59:25 p_l, cool! 19:59:54 phf: I don't know. I figured I'd just start out and see how it went 19:59:57 -!- schoppen1auer is now known as schoppenhauer 20:00:05 lnostdal: on linux, there's /proc//pagemap and /dev/kpagemap 20:00:08 egn 20:00:22 hi Inosdal 20:00:26 sykopomp: You would know to look for net-http (if that's what it ended up being called) because you used net-telnet for telnet, net-smtp for mail, and so on 20:00:28 sykopomp: yep, thanks 20:00:32 lnostdal: /proc//pagemap has pagemap entries for all of process'es address space 20:00:44 gonzojive: i am using cl-emb for some web-projects as templating engine, I am very satisfied with it... 20:00:44 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89-180-194-236.net.novis.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:01:01 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.116.224] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:01:02 jbjohns: how do I know I want net-http and not net-httpd, or net-webserver? 20:01:24 sykopomp: once you find the first one you have the info to find the rest. 20:01:33 jbjohns: oh really? 20:01:44 my god where has cl-emb been all my life... 20:01:50 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-64.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:02:02 Granted, you could argue that you have that now by just doing a search, but the problem is, when I do a search for "web server" on the common lisp sites I don't get just one 20:02:07 right threre 20:02:22 jbjohns: you can include hunchentoot and say "you should load hunchentoot for a webserver" 20:02:22 dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 20:02:41 there's a difference between packaging a common lisp that has a bunch of stuff included, and renaming everything because you think it's easier to find that way. 20:02:44 And I understand that this is a good thing overall, because different situations need different kinds of things, but it's a bit overwhelming at first 20:03:04 p_l, hm, http://www.mjmwired.net/kernel/Documentation/vm/pagemap.txt 20:03:17 lnostdal: yeah, I have it opened from kernel sources :) 20:03:20 jbjohns: I would recommend you avoid making incompatible name changes. 20:03:21 sykopomp: Well when I read a big system right now I would have to look up every single imported package to figure out what on earth it does. It's rare that the name just says what it is 20:03:35 jbjohns: you imply that there can be only one web server to rule them all? 20:03:38 s/gethash/get-hash/, for example, is incompatible. Gratuitously so. 20:04:01 stassats: no, one default one that is useful in the most situations, just probably not the best in any of them 20:04:26 jbjohns: how is this any different from knowing that, say, pyglet is a games library? 20:04:46 sykopomp: I wouldn't change it to get-anything. Maybe hashref to look more like array access 20:05:05 jbjohns: how about not gratuitously changing core lisp functions? 20:05:06 well, python has names that don't say what they do, but only once you get past the batteries included. Which is my point 20:05:12 there's a reason the standard exists. 20:05:32 there's also a reason standards change over time. At least normally they do 20:05:33 <_3b> out of curiosity, what do they do when net-foo turns out to have a horribly broken API or something? 20:05:36 wait, what to do with CHAR and BIT? 20:05:56 _3b: fix it. :) 20:06:07 <_3b> jbjohns: and break old code? 20:06:09 jbjohns: gratuitous renaming is useless, and it'll cause more problems than it fixes. 20:06:50 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 20:06:58 _3b: I'm not talking about changing the lisp standard. I was thinking of a new package for people writing new code, so old code is less relevant 20:07:10 it's like changing the syntax for hash access in python from hashtable['foo'] to hashtable{FOO} 20:07:14 just because you like curly braces better 20:07:30 and the -real- difference here is that the second won't ever run on a standard python distribution 20:07:33 "name on a bullet" by "sly and robbie" could you give me a link? 20:07:50 sykopomp: if jbjohns just wants to make a package with some new nicknames and shadowed systems im really not sure i see what the problem is 20:07:57 sykopomp: no it's not. Python has syntax is consistent with the language. It's what you'd expect if you first learned about hashes. You can't possibly say that about gethash, having known lists and arrays before that 20:08:00 sykopomp: if anything this is where lisp shines 20:08:14 mcspiff: a bunch of newbies writing code with (href hash key) 20:08:39 and then scratching their heads as to why everyone is angry about having to import some massive, gratuitous s/foo/bar/ library 20:08:51 sykopomp: then it should die quickly? 20:08:57 yes 20:09:02 jbjohns: how's nth consistent with aref? 20:09:03 it should be aborted right now 20:09:12 like a deformed fetus that won't see the light of day anyway. 20:09:20 well, honestly, I figured if I made such a project it would probably be ignored by old time lispers. But since there's so few of those.... ;) 20:09:42 ugh 20:09:47 I'm not an old time lisper. 20:09:59 sykopomp: how many times has someone came in here propsing a bunch of new "standard" reader macros that quickly die out? I think I might have.... ;-) 20:10:11 mcspiff: more times than I care to care about. 20:10:19 I think there's more useful things to be spending times on 20:10:24 batteries included is a GREAT idea 20:10:36 gratuitously changing CL into a different language, on the other hand... is downright retarded. 20:10:42 sykopomp: I agree, but if jbjohns does it, doesn't waste any of my time 20:10:45 so it is 20:10:58 I don't know about batteries included, but I'd prefer not having to deal with battery acid all over the place... 20:11:00 mcspiff: I'd rather he spend his time figuring out a way to package an easy lisp editor with some standard libraires. 20:11:04 gtatiously mentioning clbuild 20:11:13 and writing some easy documentation so people -can- get started. 20:11:18 and get THE LOT 20:11:33 sykopomp: agreed, but in free software you dont get to dictate how people waste their time ;-) 20:11:47 mcspiff: I'm not his boss. I can tell him what would be much more productive. 20:11:57 and I can tell him why I think his idea is stupid :P 20:12:02 sykopomp: totally agreed 20:12:07 and why he should concentrate on something that -everyone- would appreciate. 20:12:22 Well, I appreciate your feedback anyway. 20:12:26 which is lowering the barrier of entry to CL by making things available quicker and easier. 20:12:33 I'm into AI 20:12:42 Your into whatewver 20:12:49 I don't care 20:12:57 you are a bad AI 20:13:12 "Bad AI! No cookie!" 20:13:19 im into reinventing function in the spec, and having nyef point them out to me 20:13:28 whatever, good enough dor the university of ediburg 20:13:45 at least I am a phd 20:14:05 what about you stassats 20:14:18 didn't think so 20:14:30 i have a Nobel prize 20:14:39 I'm a dog, but nobody knows. 20:14:51 do we need to through these status bits 20:14:53 jbjohns: I would be -very- interested if you decided to package something like ABLE (http://phil.nullable.eu/) with a few extra libraries. 20:15:00 I just don't personally subscribe to: if someone once named something a name that isn't consistent anymore, it's still stuck in stone forever. How you ever used Java? I had to do Java on a project recently. What a nightmare. Every function that has ever worked is still there. Trying to figure out what is the modern way of opening a file took far too long for a language that is supposed... 20:15:01 stassats: liar 20:15:02 ...to be the most popular 20:15:25 sykopomp: clojure killer? 20:15:35 mcspiff: clojure is already dead. 20:15:37 vithorn [i=keep@95.160.156.230] has joined #lisp 20:15:40 no need to kill it 20:15:52 there's a whole of cl-dwim projects by lendvai &c. that introduce crazy syntactic changes to lisp, that they used to break ucw 20:15:54 I wish 20:16:02 no way. Clojure dead? If they would just get conditions they would have something I would be interested in 20:16:14 sykopomp: Im too stuck in my CL ways to give clojure a second look 20:16:22 i think get-hash would be a /great/ idea. bonus points for pushing into some high profile lisp project 20:16:37 well, I don't want to use a Lisp-1, but clojure is the strongest argument I ever saw for it 20:18:01 CLOS is keeping me in CL land for now, havent looked at conditions yet 20:18:05 jbjohns: like I said. Check out YTools. It's already done a lot of the things you're talking about. 20:18:34 well, YTools turned me off immediately by bashing format 20:18:36 sykopomp, why do you say that clojure is dead? I don't get it. 20:19:01 loop isn't so bad either. I would like iterate but if you import it it puts stuff all over the package space 20:19:09 tic: I killed it. It is outside of my realm of reality. I have no interest in it, in talking about it, in thinking of it, or in taking it more seriously than I take Arc. 20:19:39 jbjohns: also, OUT is a macro. 20:19:42 well, arc you have a point. Arc looks totally pointless to me. Looks like the closest perl ever got to lisp. But clojure looks nice 20:20:14 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as X-Scale 20:20:15 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 20:20:17 Clojure is the same old thing as far as I'm concerned. 20:20:25 and I want to talk about Lisp, not Clojure. 20:20:34 clojure is a lisp. 20:20:56 dlowe: but it's not Lisp (by convention) 20:21:14 not #lisp anyways ;-) 20:21:14 Nothing is Lisp by convention and request of John McCarthy 20:21:44 Why? It's not common lisp and it's not scheme. But it's got some nice things. For example, the hash syntax is wonderful. I never paid attention to it until I saw that 20:23:19 jbjohns: not interested. tx. 20:23:53 lisp2 is there mre beautiful language. 20:24:11 study and see 20:24:14 you don't have to be interested. Just don't be inaccurate. :) I mean, I don't use it myself. It doesn't have conditions. 20:24:34 -!- mfk [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has quit ["sleeping"] 20:24:36 it does 20:24:47 it has exceptions, not conditions 20:24:53 I mean, resumable 20:24:58 same difference 20:25:04 not at all the same difference 20:25:20 resumable is remarcable, yes 20:25:25 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:59 last I heard, you can't do this: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/beyond-exception-handling-conditions-and-restarts.html in clojure 20:27:13 *sykopomp* wonders what the big deal is between (gethash key table) and (get table key) 20:27:57 I fail to see your point jbjohns 20:28:16 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has left #lisp 20:28:31 sykopomp: it's not just gethash. It's lots of things. Programming is managing complexity. When the naming standard is literally all over the board it's extra cognitive load. And for what? So 30 year old lisp code can still be compiled? Is any of that stuff still used in modern projects? 20:28:41 the condition system in CL is far more powerfull than in any other language 20:29:21 jthing: 100% agree. The biggest reason I've never looked seriously into any lisp besides CL 20:29:42 lolwut 20:30:15 jbjohns: gethash is in the CL standard. Thus, you need to use it to access tables :) 20:30:35 before naming we need to do a study, with wires into the brain and all 20:30:44 I agree. 20:30:45 Ok, now I need to access an array. So... getarray. Ops. Not that. How about nthArray. Nope. svref? wtf? 20:30:53 jbjohns++ 20:30:57 and we need to do at-length studies of how relevant your silly naming scheme is in the long run. 20:31:03 aref 20:31:09 aref 20:31:12 jbjohns: whats the big deal 20:31:18 not everyone is bothered by this 20:31:19 *sykopomp* doesn't get it. 20:31:29 There is always a way.. (a functional way) 20:31:32 i use this shit so often, i dont even have to think about it 20:31:39 jbjohns: "So... i'd go browse the standard" 20:31:45 it seems the people who dont use CL are the ones who do most of the bitching and moaning 20:31:47 I realize you don't. I said in the beginning this wasn't a conversation for here! I warned. :) 20:31:54 -!- pon][ [n=pon][@c-e132e253.516-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:32:04 I think lisp has much more serious problems than having key/collection flipped for one function. 20:32:05 xristos: the people that don't use CL might be bithcing and moaning because...they chose not to use CL 20:32:28 You memorize the standard, Or you are too stupic to. 20:32:31 stassats: right. But after having to look up the 15th thing that was obvious in every other language you used... it starts to make one wonder. Is *everything* just going to have it's own naming convention? 20:32:37 rotfl 20:32:46 you weak MF 20:32:56 jbjohns: I think your suggestion that these 'inconsistencies' somehow create a tangible barrier of entry for lisp that cannot be reconciled is downright absurd. 20:32:58 now you see 20:33:02 jthing: ad homien attacks are for simple minded people. Just fyi 20:33:04 It does help to keep the rifraf out 20:33:24 jbjohns: nothing is obvious to me, i'm browsing python docs every time after not writing in it for two years 20:33:27 it's just a ritual fight 20:33:46 especially list comprehensions aren't obvious to me 20:33:53 you are supposed to be pissed 20:33:54 and, like stassats said, the very idea that these other languages somehow have magically consistent naming that makes everything instantly obvious is even more ridiculous. 20:33:56 sykopomp: it's not absurd, but he's not saying it's the killer argument. He's just making a point which, so far, hasn't been asnwered. 20:34:10 stassats: for the core library stuff? So what trips you up? You expect every data type to have some completely inconsistent way of accessing it? 20:34:20 mtd: it has. "it doesn't matter that much, and there's better things to try to fix" 20:34:32 mtd: Thank you. I knew it would go down like this. I should not have started it here 20:34:54 jbjohns: clearly, you shouldn't have started it here, because the people here know what they're talking about. 20:34:57 *mcspiff* doubts anyone can use the long form of define-method-combination without hitting clhs 20:35:02 I guess you should talk about it over in a forum of non-lispers. 20:35:04 or even better 20:35:04 jbjohns: if i was designing a language for scratch, i'd choose a better name, but now i don't want to change it 20:35:05 start a blog 20:35:09 s/for/from/ 20:35:16 that seems to be the standard practice these days. 20:35:19 sykopomp: Obviously. Your vast success shows what you say is.... wait a minute 20:35:32 -!- merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has quit [] 20:35:41 for extra points, completely misinform people about the implications of your claims. 20:35:45 because they don't know better 20:35:50 they don't use lisp, and they probably never will 20:35:55 Look, it's usable as it is. But it's more messy than it has to be 20:36:04 sykopomp: saying it doesn't matter is quite a poor response, but I'm glad you're satisfied with it. 20:36:09 anyhow list comprehentions 20:36:13 they universe isn't perfect, news at eleven 20:36:20 s/they/the/ 20:36:28 *_3b* votes #lisp needs less talk, more code. 20:36:36 jthing: Lisp comprehention syntax is kind of it's own thing in python. I think it's overused myself 20:36:41 mtd: I'd rather have portable concurrency than go through the CL standard and break all my old code because someone thought it wasn't elegant enough. 20:36:42 stassats: so the guy that wants to improve it gets told "eh, we don't care that much". 20:37:14 List comprehention* Darn muscle memory 20:37:16 mtd: I'm saying there's better priorities than some dinky s/foo/bar/ library. 20:37:17 sykopomp: fair point. Thanks, that's much better. jbjohns, what say you to that? 20:37:26 mtd: that's what I said before. 20:37:33 http://subpic.blogspot.com/2007/02/more-then-list-comprehensions-lisp-loop.html 20:37:44 sykopomp: yeah, but hash table accessors are hardly dinky libraries. You'd have us back in scheme where everyone implements their own. 20:37:52 ok, let's stop, we are going circles 20:37:54 -!- nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has left #lisp 20:38:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_comprehension 20:38:20 mtd: What I talk about is just for newer code. Yes portable concurrency would be nice, but not my expertise. I've avoid concurrency as much as I can, I think it's handled totally wrong by most engineers atm 20:38:26 sykopomp: I don't want to overblow my position in this all (I haven't one), but I'm just annoyed perfectly reasonable arguments get dismissed by saying "you're right but it's not important enough". Well then just ignore it. 20:38:39 sorrty stassats, but it is quite obvious 20:38:53 jthing: i don't have a phd, you forgot 20:38:53 stassats: ok 20:38:59 mtd: (defun get-hash (table key) (gethash key table)) is what I consider "dinky" 20:39:03 and gratuitous. 20:39:21 stassats: try mathematics 20:39:21 mtd: Exactly. I don't want to break anyone's stuff. My idea would be it would be a totally different import. Probably some kind of alias scheme so you don't get it if you don't want it 20:39:30 lol 20:39:46 if lisp were getting designed all over again, and no code in thelanguage was ever written, I'd go with (defmethod get ((table hash-table) key) ...) 20:40:04 sykopomp: his point was that more things were consistent...let's just forget it, I think we could know where we stand. 20:40:09 hell. I'm totally up for a redesign of sequences, in general. 20:40:12 sykopomp: but then you inflict CLOS lookup time everywhere, no? 20:40:15 *_3b* agrees with nyef 20:40:15 but gratuitous, silly stuff like that? PFFFF 20:40:16 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.116.224] has joined #lisp 20:40:25 jbjohns: PCL is really fast. It's really really fast. 20:40:28 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 20:40:59 -PCL is a book 20:41:08 I mean, I agree with you that it's elegant. But that looks like a major redesign to me 20:41:09 PCL is also the implementation of CLOS that SBCL uses. 20:41:16 Portable Common Loops. 20:41:21 I don't know who else uses PCL. I hear it's pretty widespread. 20:41:29 -!- jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:41:37 jbjohns: if it's going to be redesigned, it should be major, and community-based. 20:41:55 Common loops is inefficient compared to other 20:41:57 like, I would totally be up for a generic-function-based sequence redesign in cltl3 20:41:59 that was never my intention. I prefer small steps in a direction, never a major all at once anything 20:42:07 class implementations? 20:42:18 and I would still prefer that gethash/aref/nth stick around, even if deprecated. 20:42:35 SBCL takes ut the rear! 20:42:35 jbjohns: your step is gratuitous. And it doesn't get us anywhere. 20:42:46 it's the kind of change that belongs in your utils.lisp 20:42:49 -!- finarfin [n=finarfin@fw.resman.pl] has quit ["BitchX: no additives or preservatives"] 20:43:06 So WTF are you talking about? 20:43:20 not making gratuitous changes 20:43:24 yes, let's stop 20:43:39 specially when said gratuitous changes are targeted at a bunch of newbies, who would then be expected to somehow learn 'real' cl to do anything useful. 20:43:43 sykopomp: it doesn't get *you* anywhere. :) 20:43:43 *sykopomp* agrees. 20:44:00 *sykopomp* is done with this. 20:44:05 fair enough 20:44:28 OK, common lisp CLOS is OK in SBCL. 20:44:50 is there a 'first-n' like function? i've been looking but cant find anything 20:44:56 but it is better in ListWorks and Alllegro Common Lisp 20:45:09 first-n? What do you want it to do? 20:45:12 and I refuse to shut up about it 20:45:13 sykopomp: have you seen rhodes's user extensible sequences? 20:45:30 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:45:34 phf: I have read about them. I have not looked at them yet. I'm excited about them. 20:45:49 let old jsnell fix it 20:45:56 or not 20:46:12 *jthing* is steaming 20:46:14 cp2: you mean (find n list)? 20:46:33 jbjohns: i am using iolib sockets to read data from a telnet server. i want to coerce that data to a string (i was using babel:octets-to-string with :encoding as :ascii, but it still yells at me), i am tring to use (map 'string #'code-char the-buffer), but i dont want the extra garbage 0s to be in the string 20:46:42 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:44 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-26-144-229.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:46:46 cp2: find/find-if/find-if-not return the first item that match 20:47:10 cp2: so you want the equivalent to haskells: takeUntil ? 20:47:27 maybe filter? 20:47:36 jbjohns: i guess that would work 20:47:37 filter perhaps 20:47:45 cp2: find-if is filter. 20:47:46 clhs remove-if 20:47:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 20:47:53 err, remove-if (durr) 20:47:53 find-if isn't a filter 20:48:02 *sykopomp* nods. 20:48:08 i see 20:48:12 that will work fine 20:48:14 thanks guys 20:48:53 should we rename it to "filter"? 20:49:03 ideally though, i would like to just disregard the last x bytes from the buffer returned by sockets:receive-from, and just use the first n bytes 20:49:13 *jbjohns* tries not to say anything about someone who "knows what they're talking about" forgetting the function name 20:49:16 :) 20:49:20 because sockets:receive-from returns the number of bytes read 20:49:45 clhs subseq 20:49:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subseq.htm 20:49:57 ah 20:50:00 thats perfect 20:50:09 cp2: please paste the code you're using 20:50:12 ah yes, subseq. I've just been using that in a telnet library 20:50:22 was about to look it up 20:51:30 I'm converting some of my old C++ networking libraries to CL 20:51:36 dys` [n=andreas@p5B3158C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:55 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 20:52:07 I gave up on C++ before I ever actually released them. But from my testing they seemed to be fast implementations. 20:52:12 fe[nl]ix: hold up 20:52:15 lisppaste: url 20:52:16 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 20:53:11 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:53:14 cp2 pasted "." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81719 20:53:27 -!- md1 [n=user@stip-srk131.195-146-143.telecom.sk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:54:24 cp2: paste also the code you use to create the socket 20:54:58 fe[nl]ix: atm im just testing with (sockets:with-open-socket (sock :remote-host ...) ...) 20:55:15 cp2: yes, paste that 20:55:51 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:56:09 *jthing* wanna CRAY 20:56:10 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:56:17 cp2 annotated #81719 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81719#1 20:56:28 oh yeah, forgot to mention the garbage output 20:57:19 beautiful code 20:57:27 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B317735.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Success] 20:57:39 jbjohns: are you being facetious? :) 20:57:40 of courxce you are relying on babel 20:57:54 not a good idea 20:57:55 cp2: ? 20:57:55 how can i split up quoted expression so that i can make use of individual tokens eg. '(*var* #p"path1" #p"path2") I want to be able to make use of path 1 and 2 else where, but can't seemed to figure it out :| 20:57:57 jthing: that was the first thing i tried 20:58:00 'buggy 20:58:04 jbjohns: ? 20:58:13 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f53b0.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:58:25 cp2: What are you talking about being facetious? 20:58:38 oh, im sorry, i meant to say that to jthing 20:58:39 oh, did you mean jthing? 20:58:41 aha 20:58:46 blame tab completion heh 20:59:01 CrEddy [n=adaptati@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 20:59:02 lol 20:59:07 tab completion! I never tried that. So that's how you people never mispell anyone's name 20:59:09 *blush* 20:59:24 manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 20:59:24 gotcha, what am I talikg about. 20:59:44 I think I'll use a link. 21:00:37 http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/sockets.html 21:01:03 from the cookbook I am in charge of 21:01:17 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:01:18 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcz124.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:01:19 jthing: so you are saying i should use PORT instead of iolib sockets? 21:01:41 no 21:01:58 Guthur: (first list), (second list) ? 21:02:11 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslhd138.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:02:12 socket-accept 21:02:12 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:02:40 WTF is PORT 21:02:59 "In this chapter, we will use the socket library contained in PORT, that in turn is part of the Common Lisp Open Code Collection (CLOCC)." 21:03:10 ahh 21:03:21 from what you just linked me to.. 21:03:24 Clocc is ancient 21:03:47 sorry if I linked you to that 21:04:07 stassats i think i tried that but it just pick up 'first' and 'second' because it was quoted, i might be wrong though, very new to lisp :) 21:04:44 i don't quite understand you 21:04:53 Hm, my problems with slime go away if I delete the *.elc files in the slime directory. However then I get an error that the versions of slime and swank don't agree with each other. 21:05:08 -!- zilt [n=zilt@67.23.13.119] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:05:41 TauPan: did you remove cl-swank? 21:06:02 it was never installed 21:06:07 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/General-Sockets.html 21:06:13 for sbcl 21:06:19 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:27 but I just discovered my checkout was botched... I just cleared it up 21:06:28 there is NO CL sockets 21:06:35 ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 21:06:41 jthing: i know that 21:06:53 the code i pasted is using the sockets portion of iolib 21:06:54 I get 'Versions differ: 2009-06-1 (slime) vs. 2009-01-17 (swank). Continue? (y or n) ' 21:06:58 fe[nl]ix annotated #81719 "perhaps enough ?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81719#2 21:07:10 TauPan: restart emacs? remove ~/.slime? 21:07:33 forget about sbcl from debian? 21:07:39 I already did all that. 21:07:45 and I upgrade sbcl to 1.0.29 21:07:52 cp2: buggy 21:08:02 as I said, it helps if I *don't* compile the *.el files. 21:08:07 cp2: but good luck 21:08:18 but still emacs asks me about the versions 21:08:31 jthing: why is it buggy? 21:08:48 justin` [n=justin@ip24-250-39-58.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:02 cp2: It's late at nite here and I am trying to whatch this horror movie... later... 21:09:03 TauPan: paste *inferior-lisp* again? 21:09:06 fe[nl]ix: thanks, i got it now. i forgot about telnet needing terminal info and such, thats what the gibberish i'm getting is 21:09:11 jthing: ok 21:09:20 is about* 21:09:24 it's getting old swank from somewhere 21:09:43 stassats: there's nothing to paste... I just get that y/n question, but slime works now 21:10:06 i.e. there's no *inferior-lisp* buffer 21:10:28 -!- vithorn [i=keep@95.160.156.230] has quit ["( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )"] 21:10:33 it should exist 21:10:37 cp2: there is a telnet library on... cliki or wherever the cl libraries are. It's an (imo) ugly python inspired thing, but I didn't see anything else 21:10:50 jbjohns: yeah i saw it 21:11:02 it doesn't 21:11:11 -!- phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:11:11 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:21 no it does! i will eat my hat if it doesn't 21:11:24 merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:33 No buffer matching `*inferor-lisp*', create one? (y or n) 21:11:36 I like mine better, but I haven't put it anywhere and I haven't finalized how I'm going to handle option negotiation. Most people wont ever use it, but I want the library to be capable of making Putty or clients like that 21:11:42 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:11:49 stassats: you want some salt and pepper with your hat? 21:11:50 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:51 well, *inferor-lisp*<1> or something 21:11:51 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:02 nope 21:12:21 M-x slime-selector RET i 21:12:31 I just have a buffer called *slime-repl sbcl* 21:12:32 if *inferior-lisp* isn't there then something crashed pretty early. I installed SLIME on windows emacs the other day and had all kinds of issues, but all of my own making. Almost all 21:12:33 <_3b> TauPan: you are doing M-x slime, not connecting to a running lisp, right? 21:12:41 slimw orks great 21:12:41 jbjohns: if you decide to publish it i would be glad to use it 21:12:55 oh, I am connecting to a running lisp 21:13:05 you didn't ask about that 21:13:07 <_3b> you need to load swank from the same checkout 21:13:24 Ah, M-x slime recompiles stuff. 21:13:36 i have no hat anyway 21:13:38 probably the fasl files for swank were outdated or something? 21:13:54 cp2: I will for sure, I just don't know when. I'm adding a project module to emacs at the moment. I didn't like any of the ones I saw and I want something to manage the asdf files for me 21:14:01 that can be 21:14:01 M-x slime puts me in *slime-repl sbcl<2>*, CL-USER> ;-} 21:14:11 jbjohns: aye, whenever you get around to it 21:14:22 cp2: I'm the main developer of iolib. if you have any questions, there's #iolib 21:14:31 fe[nl]ix: oh, ok 21:14:34 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:14:35 ill remember that 21:14:41 *TauPan* restarts the lisp process (stumpwm) to get a new swank there as well. 21:14:44 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:58 ok, no warning any more 21:15:24 I have a script that compiles the *.el files in batch mode on the command line. Apparently that broke things. 21:15:55 because deleting the *.elc files gives me a working slime + swank 21:16:12 *stassats* ate his imaginary hat, he should've thought about remote slime right away 21:16:42 I didn't tell you about remote slime, but that was the original intent. I only tried M-x slime for testing purposes. 21:16:44 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:16:49 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:08 HET3 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 21:17:35 there should be a flow-chart "what to do when your slime isn't working" 21:17:54 when i start a thread in sbcl using swank and slime and then disconnect from swank and reconnect, how can i inspect the state of the process which is presumably still running 21:18:12 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:55 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:19:03 stassats: well, I deleted *.elc files because I got a backtrace with byte code in it, and I wanted to be able to read it 21:19:11 *TauPan* retries compiling those files 21:19:40 HET3: C-c C-x t gives you a list of the running threads. then you can C-h m 21:19:44 -!- pierre- [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has left #lisp 21:19:48 nice 21:19:51 thanks 21:20:58 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 21:22:37 yeah, my compile script definitely breaks things... :-\ 21:22:55 at least now I know it's my fault 21:22:56 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-116-145.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:11 -!- rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:24:11 -!- PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:26:43 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:27:46 fe[nl]ix: What's the point of a different channel? 21:29:02 *TauPan* searches emacswiki for a working "compile all my elisp files" script. 21:31:21 blbrown [n=Berlin@71.236.25.127] has joined #lisp 21:32:54 -!- Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 21:33:44 fe[nl]ix: what is C-h m? 21:33:49 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:10 describe mode 21:34:23 it will show you which keys are available 21:36:25 hrm that only works with a local inferior lisp process aparently 21:36:42 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:37:55 also once i slime-disconnect my thread is killed :/ 21:38:09 hmm, xemacs + slime + sbcl in windows never returns from the debugger back to the toplevel 21:38:37 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:39:34 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Client Quit] 21:39:37 *Phoodus* tries fetching a newer version of slime 21:40:14 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:40:21 HET3: you have to start the swank server with :dont-close t 21:41:51 tcr: no need to discuss iolib internals and such on #lisp 21:42:28 yeah, don't want to let out the secret sauce. :) 21:42:30 <_3b> is there any way to inspect 2 different objects at once in slime? 21:42:38 fe[nl]ix: iolib internals perhaps, but I'm interested in user experience 21:43:06 _3b: I did some work on making it possible to have multiple inspectors open simultaneously. I haven't finished that. 21:43:07 _3b: C-c I (list first-object second-object) 21:43:13 -!- benbelly [n=bholm1@cpe-74-67-149-169.rochester.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 21:43:21 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:29 he presumably wants to look at simultaneously 21:43:40 <_3b> right, goal is to compare them 21:43:43 _3b: You can do M-x clone-buffer, but you cannot use the clone 21:44:13 say you wrote an eliza-like chatbot in clisp, and you wanted it to be available on the web for use by anyone -- what would be the best way to go about doing this? 21:44:30 minion: hunchentoot? 21:44:31 hunchentoot: Hunchentoot is a web server written in Common Lisp and at the same time a toolkit for building dynamic websites. http://www.cliki.net/hunchentoot 21:44:51 _3b: (Technically you can use the clone, but on the Lisp side there's just one inspector state which will be used by all clones) 21:45:08 isismelting announce it on cliki or somesuch, preferably with a hyped up scalability claims matching erlang or whatever else to gain traction. :) 21:45:10 HET4 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 21:45:41 everyone know how php has the "system" command 21:46:09 oh, i thought about web interface for a chat-bot 21:46:16 jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:17 right now i have it going ' system (path-to-clisp path-to-eliza user-input) ' 21:46:19 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:46:24 with a php/html form 21:46:33 but i feel like the php system command is a security problem? 21:46:51 screw php, write everything in lisp 21:47:27 stassats -- i absolutely want to, i just don't know exactly how to go about doing it yet. 21:47:44 my php code looks like this - "start php, run the lisp file, end php" 21:47:58 well, use hunchentoot 21:48:35 ok -- i'll try to figure it out right now. thank you for the tip. i REALLY want to be able to use just lisp for my web-based things 21:48:50 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:49:01 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 21:49:18 it's really simple to make a simple interface for a chat-bot with hunchentoot 21:49:27 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:50:01 stassats - i'm not using lispworks, i'm on a linux server (redhat i think) using gnu clisp which i had to install in my own home directory because it's not on the system 21:50:15 use sbcl 21:50:22 i mean, i don't have root access to the system i'm using -- can i still do this? 21:50:25 minion: sbcl 21:50:27 sbcl: Steel Bank Common Lisp is an open source / free software Common Lisp implementation. http://www.cliki.net/sbcl 21:50:29 -!- HET4 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:50:32 yes 21:50:33 well, there shouldnt be any problems using either sbcl with hunchentoot or clisp for the web. 21:50:34 qbg [n=qbg@65-73-86-56.dsl1.mnd.mn.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:50 using clisp is a problem 21:51:03 Even upgrading slime to the latest CVS snapshot still hangs on the sbcl debugger 21:51:04 (it has no normal threads yet) 21:51:06 Any ideas? 21:51:10 it is? i had no idea. 21:51:26 i mean, with hunchentoot 21:51:48 ah, right. that might be bitchy. i use cgi or fastcgi. 21:51:54 <_3b> Phoodus: on windows? patch slime or patch sbcl 21:52:19 so i can install SBCL & hunchentoot on a redhat machine that is not my own, assuming i have access to the gcc compiler & can make stuff etc? 21:52:23 _3b: yeah. Patch from hwere? 21:52:34 isismelting: right 21:52:35 isismelting yes, unless you have really annoying admins. 21:52:47 <_3b> Phoodus: look at the end of http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/article-drafts/sbcl-win32-slime-and-cygwin-emacs.txt for info on sbcl patch 21:52:55 _3b: sbcl is the latest 1.0.29 binary release, slime is a CVS checkout from just now 21:52:57 <_3b> Phoodus (skip the cygwin stuff unless you use cygwin) 21:53:00 I'm on xemacs, not cygwin 21:53:01 hypno: i do now, kind of -- they just started this "jailshell" which is apparently part of cpanel 21:53:14 cygwin and xemacs are orthogonal 21:53:23 i can't find hardly any info on what the hell jailshell really is, and i haven't broken out of it yet (except via a stupid php script i wrote) 21:53:27 <_3b> Phoodus: or see slime list for info on patching slime 21:53:48 <_3b> stassats: not quite, since that link is also about cygwin emacs 21:54:21 oh, i thought about cygwin sbcl 21:54:24 sorry 21:54:28 isismelting well, it should be fairly obvious if you can execute your own binaries or not. if you can, i see no reason why no lisp shouldnt work. 21:55:43 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:57:27 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has quit [] 22:01:52 -!- mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:02:03 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:57 _3b: found the mailing list patch, thanks 22:06:55 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:06:55 -!- HET3 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:07:01 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 22:08:07 -!- jdz [n=jdz@84.237.142.223] has quit [] 22:11:39 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:51 hmm, I just did an asdf-install of binary-types 22:12:02 should I now be able to (require 'binary-types) 22:12:38 (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'binary-types) 22:12:43 (require 'binary-types) 22:12:47 you never know with asdf-install 22:12:51 merimus: alternatively you should check out clbuild 22:14:30 hmm, deff not happy with that 22:14:34 -!- rumbleca is now known as rbancroft 22:15:28 stassats if you are interested i think i know what my quote issue was before, i was using scoped variables, which were not defined at the level they were being used (by an import package), so they were always empty 22:16:03 i used a defvar and they worked, glorious global :p 22:16:41 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:09 your terminology is a bit strange, i don't know what "scoped variables" are 22:17:56 ya its wrong most likely, i was using a let before 22:18:11 probably a more correct term for it 22:18:30 let creates bindings 22:18:33 hmm... need a small push here I think.. I want to use mapcar with a function that expects 2 arguments, and the second is always the same... how would I do this? 22:18:43 mjf [n=mjf@r6y126.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 22:18:48 I'm thinking something with flet? 22:18:50 i think you meant special vs. lexical variables 22:19:07 <_3b> thijso: (lambda (x) (binary-fn x constant)) ? 22:19:10 (mapcar (lambda (x) (list x 10)) list) 22:19:25 -!- rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-69ef1b79cc82cbb6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:19:27 <_3b> flet works too though 22:19:33 ah, ok... 22:19:41 stassats its probably because it feels like a scoped variable in other languages 22:19:43 <_3b> (just remember to use #' instead of ' for flets) 22:20:02 right, _3b, stassats, thanks 22:20:06 Guthur: maybe, i don't know other languages 22:20:34 stassats what a nice position to be in :) 22:20:42 Guthur i dont even recognize that from C. you mean scoped as in a "local" variable? 22:21:31 or a variable that belongs to a "block" or some other such local entity? 22:21:35 ya, though javascript might be a more closely related comparison, believe it or not :) 22:22:22 its ok i'm still getting to grips with lisp 22:22:35 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-251-238.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 22:22:42 javascript has dynamic scoping 22:23:09 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:18 ugh, it has closures, so it has lexical scope, no? 22:23:32 it depends on where it is called from, but its by no means a direct correlation, i just thinking of how you can rebind a symbol with let at various levels 22:23:46 ya closures, thats a better term again :) 22:24:42 well, closure is a different term 22:25:14 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 22:27:16 hypno: sometimes "ability to execute your own binaries" is not enough to run modern lisp 22:27:36 execute binaries of your friend? 22:27:57 stassats: not having fascist grsec policies on the kernel helps ;P 22:28:36 hey, godwin's law! 22:28:54 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:28:58 basically, if you can disable address space randomisation, forget about running normal SBCL. I had been running for some time with modified SBCL or CCL, but now even that doesn't work 22:28:59 Hitler hasn't ben mentioned yet. 22:29:25 stassats: that would if they were nazi policies, or hitlerpolicy ;-) 22:29:29 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.251.174] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:29:42 p_l well, i am aware of that, and i guess you are aslr, pax, acls, kernel checksums and wahtever else, but i thought that was beeing anal. :) 22:30:04 hypno: No, that's what I have on my host :/ 22:30:47 p_l: fascist are enough for me 22:30:57 fascists 22:31:18 32bit CCL still works, but I'm not sure I want 32bit lisp on nearly pure 64bit host 22:31:30 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.116.224] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:31:59 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:33:26 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:36:42 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 22:37:27 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslhd138.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:37:50 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:41:38 ya lexical scoped was the term, need to brush up on my theory :p 22:44:09 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:44:32 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:48:36 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 22:50:12 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 22:50:17 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [] 22:50:24 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:51:20 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:08 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:55:32 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:58:45 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:01:18 hmm... nice being able to access IRC from company... I had to do crazy proxying to get SSH out... 23:01:23 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y126.net.upc.cz] has quit ["GNU is *indeed* No UNIX!"] 23:04:55 how does sbcl know where to look for packages? 23:05:02 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:05:32 you mean, for an asdf system? 23:05:46 asdf:*central-registry* 23:05:48 gah... grr.. I don't know 23:05:58 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:06:25 (defpackage #:binary-types 23:08:32 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslhd138.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:09:30 merimus: (push "/this/is/my/binary/types/directory/" asdf:*central-registry*) ? 23:09:52 is there a .sbclrc file? 23:09:52 clhs require 23:09:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_provid.htm 23:10:14 merimus: plus asdf adds its own handler in sbcl 23:10:46 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:39 md1 [n=user@stip-srk131.195-146-143.telecom.sk] has joined #lisp 23:12:15 merimus: yes, sbcl will load ~/.sbclrc if present 23:13:06 p_l: but require loads modules, not packages 23:13:38 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:14:54 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:29 pkhuong: Around? 23:19:26 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068084215.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:21:14 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-92-48.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:22:23 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:22:48 -!- benny` is now known as benny 23:23:24 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:23:33 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 23:25:11 stassats: blame it on the whole thing being unclear :P 23:25:47 p_l: http://weitz.de/bart.gif 23:26:06 stassats: beautiful :D 23:26:23 (part of http://weitz.de/packages.html ) 23:28:50 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:34 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:31:37 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:35:19 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:36:41 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-4f1692856407f2a6] has joined #lisp 23:37:15 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-251-238.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 23:39:52 rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:28 -!- okflo [n=user@91-115-82-84.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:43:23 -!- asksol [n=ask@114.242.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:43:35 -!- md1 [n=user@stip-srk131.195-146-143.telecom.sk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:44:52 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:45:14 ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 23:45:29 p_l: 32-bit lisp on pure 64-bit is nice, it means you can have four billion lisp processes running at once. 23:46:50 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 23:46:54 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:39 stassats that packages link was very helpful, :) 23:48:07 thanks to Edi Weitz 23:48:09 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:15 -!- Bigshot_ [n=BIG_SHOT@CPE002129abc864-CM001ac35cd4d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 23:50:02 pjb: and no access to any FFI stuff 23:50:20 pjb: not to mention possibility of breaking down at any moment 23:50:25 pure lisp on pure 64-bit 23:50:32 (because of what caused the situation) 23:52:14 how random is the standrd 'random' function? 23:52:29 as random as you implement it 23:52:35 interestingly, I've got ENOMEM on PROT_NONE, which is... weird 23:52:41 i.e., it's not specified by the standard 23:52:58 oh, so shouldn't be relied on for things needing high entropy 23:53:05 yes 23:55:19 Ralith: I suspect it would be better idea to read from /dev/urandom or whatever your OS supports 23:55:34 /dev/random 23:55:36 eventually modifying the output for your needs 23:55:55 was just wondering how entropic the standard one was 23:57:07 also 23:57:13 what's the difference between &rest and &body? 23:57:27 no semantic difference 23:57:31 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:57:38 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-3-195.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 23:57:42 just body tells you that it's a body 23:57:54 Ralith: editors will typically indent a &body differently 23:57:57 so, purely aesthetic? 23:57:59 'kay 23:58:02 yes 23:58:43 you could it's the same reason why function arguments aren't called i1, i2, i3, ... in 23:58:44 -!- dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:59:10 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit []