04:01:18 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 04:01:18 04:01:18 -!- names: ccl-logbot sbahra Sikander mrsolo eno dalton jthing jlf milanj drforr hefner kmcorbett fusss TDT Lectus drafael Ginei_Morioka cp2 rybr_mint rybr` rme marcoecc aja sykopomp antoszka_ sepult xinming__ BrianRice HET2 dfox ia ace4016 nyef rread_ slash_ S11001001 manic12 birdsbite Jasko billstclair kleppari_ prip proq X-Scale Phoodus fe[nl]ix jao benny djinni` Dazhbog kidd Bootvis jeremiah A_anekos enn Samy tltstc @drewc legumbre bobf phytovor Modius 04:01:18 -!- names: tsuru stassats cracki plutonas Pavitra ASau caddar pitui rdd rstandy phadthai hjpark CrazyEddy jlf` kuwabara sohail willb abeaumont mornfall jkantz leo2007 kiuma Drakeson` Taggnostr kpreid daniel_ Fade Soulman__ grc``` madnificent pchrist bob_f antifuchs ``Erik qebab Ringo48 g06|in Ppjet6 Adrinael Borbus s0ber Tordek brown``` dto`` hypno ironChicken alexbobp xan erg ramus` cYmen bohanlon froydnj holycow Ralith hyperboreean pjb grouzen mtd Buganini 04:01:18 -!- names: borism bdowning dmiles_afk minion asdf1234 herbieB Jarvellis Gertm Khisanth mikezor johanbev authentic joast wlr araujo Aisling jsnell AntiSpamMeta fnordus REPLeffect Intensity joga kuhzoo kei matimago trebor_dki arbscht rumbleca erk guaqua glogic frontiers ecraven beach scode_ housel mgr nicktastic johs_ mathrick kefka spacebat_ lnostdal tttsssttt maxote tessier cavelife^ felipe Riastradh nasloc__ Orest djkthx clog stepnem slyrus lisppaste 04:01:18 -!- names: ianmcorvidae myrkraverk Axioplase Patzy meingbg spiaggia dcrawford bfein delYsid Quadrescence ski jrockway yahooooo rlonstein drhodes tarbo smithzv ilitirit specbot egn easyE zbigniew vcgomes bun_bun srcerer tcoppi thijso l_a_m galdor pragma_ azuk Zhivago Xof pok fgtech michaelw chii _3b koollman z0d Dave2 _dima krappie zilt foom Qsource PissedNumlock rey_ desu ineiros luis boyscared Maddas gz wasabi__ pon][ noptys tic Bucciarati rsynnott vsync 04:01:18 -!- names: piksi guenthr Draggor blast_hardcheese pkhuong p_l yango r0bby sjbach lemoinem keithr rotty peddie freethin` cods cmm sepisultrum wgl dostoyevsky 04:01:52 Good morning. 04:02:23 Hello beach. 04:02:28 morning beach 04:02:36 What did I miss? 04:02:44 OpenGL + McCLIM as a going concern? 04:03:22 Possibly a few other things. 04:03:51 Interesting! 04:04:32 beach: i want a month sabbatical in bx to hack on mcclim and my chemicl and cl-bio projects 04:04:46 of course I have actual work to do that gets in the way of that plan 04:04:53 Heh. 04:05:17 slyrus: Planning on using what we've just gotten working? 04:05:37 that might be very nice :) 04:05:38 slyrus: Yeah, work has a tendency to take up too much time from more interesting stuff. 04:05:49 -!- rybr` [n=user@91.79.36.254] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:05:51 nyef: of course I have to figure out how to get it working here, which is always a challenge 04:06:08 Oh? 04:06:56 -!- rybr_mint [n=rybr@91.79.36.254] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:08:05 Ah, I see the hook for making the multiple-connection thing work right. 04:08:33 make-current should check the display of the drawable provided against the display of the current context before issuing the request. 04:08:54 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-103-192.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:09:07 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-22-53.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:09:08 Probably doesn't help with threading issues, but that's another matter entirely anyway. 04:09:10 -!- beach` is now known as beach 04:10:36 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:10:40 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-197.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 04:11:25 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-48-192.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:11:29 -!- Samy [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:11:37 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-103-192.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:11:41 -!- beach` is now known as beach 04:13:35 I went online to look up how to run processes, and found an example that I utilized - but the output, well, there is none or I'm just doing something totally wrong here. Would definitely appreciate a second set of eyes on this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/81575 04:14:21 TDT: probably not finding it. add :search t 04:14:58 also, I know CL's directory function is an abomination, but that's terrible. 04:15:34 (with-smiley) 04:16:38 Hmm, the :search t worked, wow...that's interesting that was just the issue. Thanks for the help hefner 04:17:16 otherwise it doesn't take your PATH into account, and you'd have to use an absolute path to the program 04:19:14 rybr_mint [n=rybr@91.79.38.104] has joined #lisp 04:20:07 Okay, I need to try and get some sleep. 04:20:20 hefner: Thanks for the OpenGL/McCLIM code. 04:20:28 -!- nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 04:22:28 hefner: yeah, just looked up the documentation again..feel kinda stupid since I should have seen that. 04:25:26 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-116-145.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 04:29:30 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 17:48:50 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 17:48:50 17:48:50 -!- names: ccl-logbot Athas Odin- stassats` ruediger drforr_ merimus legumbre jajcloz araujo parolang MrSpec sad0ur krumholt__ pstickne mejja nvoorhies_ tcr pierre- Hun kleppari mrsolo slyrus_ asksol konr Samy Davidbrcz SandGorgon sohail dto demmeln salex Yuuhi nyef dmiles_afk cracki bombshelter13_ yango_ ZabaQ bzwahr tsuru dlowe jeremiah blackened` sellout The-Kenny Jasko xinming_ tritchey daniel jthing plutonas fiveop birdzbite marcoecc mikezor_ Edward_ 17:48:50 -!- names: benny HET2 billstclair S11001001 peddie kiuma jkantz madnificent mornfall Soulman__ matimago Nshag hefner free_thinker tombom hnr Soulman gemelen frodef Gertm Patzy [Head|Rest] freethin` beach` Ginei_Morioka rybr_mint eno ausente drforr kmcorbett cp2 sykopomp antoszka BrianRice dfox ia rread_ slash_ prip proq X-Scale fe[nl]ix djinni` Dazhbog kidd Bootvis anekos enn tltstc @drewc bobf phytovor Modius caddar pitui rdd phadthai CrazyEddy jlf` 17:48:50 -!- names: kuwabara leo2007 Drakeson Taggnostr kpreid Fade bob_f antifuchs ``Erik qebab Ringo48 g06|in Ppjet6 Adrinael Borbus s0ber Tordek brown``` hypno ironChicken alexbobp xan erg ramus` cYmen bohanlon froydnj holycow Ralith hyperboreean pjb grouzen mtd Buganini bdowning minion asdf1234 herbieB Khisanth johanbev authentic joast wlr Aisling jsnell AntiSpamMeta fnordus REPLeffect Intensity joga kuhzoo kei trebor_dki arbscht rumbleca erk guaqua glogic 17:48:50 -!- names: frontiers ecraven scode_ housel mgr nicktastic johs_ mathrick kefka spacebat_ lnostdal tttsssttt maxote tessier cavelife^ felipe Riastradh nasloc__ Orest djkthx clog stepnem slyrus lisppaste ianmcorvidae myrkraverk Axioplase_ meingbg dcrawford bfein Quadrescence ski jrockway yahooooo rlonstein drhodes tarbo smithzv ilitirit specbot egn easyE zbigniew vcgomes bun_bun srcerer tcoppi thijso l_a_m galdor dostoyevsky wgl sepisultrum cmm cods rotty 17:48:50 -!- names: keithr lemoinem sjbach r0bby p_l pkhuong blast_hardcheese Draggor guenthr piksi vsync rsynnott Bucciarati tic noptys pon][ wasabi__ gz Maddas boyscared luis ineiros desu rey_ PissedNumlock Qsource foom zilt krappie chii michaelw Xof fgtech pok Zhivago azuk pragma_ _3b koollman z0d Dave2 _dima 17:49:45 -!- drforr_ [n=jgoff@NAT121.TURNITIN.COM] has quit ["leaving"] 17:51:37 And building threaded version now... 17:51:48 -!- ZabaQ [n=johnc@playboxgames.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:52:12 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-138-193-165.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:52:55 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:54:40 khumba [n=khumba@206.87.16.104] has joined #lisp 17:55:10 Anyone around that understands clim event handling? When I want a pane to handle events like pointer-motion I need to derive from gadget, right? 17:55:11 yakman_ [n=bot@94-194-134-155.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:56:42 Something sounds wrong about that, but I'm not sure what. 17:57:42 I would have thought it should be enough to implement handle-event methods 17:57:48 but they don't seem to be called 17:58:00 unless i derive from gadget 18:01:03 28.34 is good 18:01:57 -!- pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:03:47 I seem to be able to build threaded HEAD from non-threaded HEAD. 18:03:48 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:04:03 x86-64/linux. 18:04:13 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:04:51 yeah, darwin works too. looks like it's fbsd specific. 18:05:21 and x86-64 specific, as i built x86 yesterday with no problems. 18:05:39 .43 is bad. 18:05:44 28.43 that is 18:09:27 Heh. Why do I get the feeling that this progression eventually ends up with a set VMs running build-bots in various configurations...? 18:10:19 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:11:00 .38 is bad... 18:11:06 between .34 and .38 18:11:12 And not even for the wierd architectures, just covering FreeBSD and Linux on x86 and x86-64, Win32 on x86, and perhaps a couple of others... 18:11:14 nyef: I like that idea 18:11:48 1.0.28.37 seems most likely. 18:12:28 yeah, that's what I was thinking 18:12:30 As it deals with thready signal stuff. 18:12:48 justin` [n=justin@ip24-250-39-58.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:39 back 18:14:45 back 18:14:55 forward? 18:16:47 qbg [n=qbg@65-73-86-56.dsl1.mnd.mn.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:12 .36 is good 18:19:53 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 18:21:02 ding ding ding 1.0.28.37 is the culprit 18:22:12 And no mega1 here to ask for a fix. 18:22:16 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 18:22:17 darn 18:22:32 benny` [n=benny@i577A2A89.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:22:41 Ah well, 'swhat sbcl-devel is for, right? 18:23:41 jamesstanley [n=james@82-33-61-156.cable.ubr06.stav.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:23:47 -!- benny [n=benny@87.122.26.250] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:23:50 -!- benny` is now known as benny 18:24:15 I'm trying to learn some lisp. The guy says (define (square x) (* x x)), and this works in DrScheme, but it doesn't work in Emacs. 18:24:22 Anyone know what I have failed to understand? 18:24:38 Emacs lisp is not Scheme 18:24:47 is emacs lisp lisp? 18:24:48 jamesstanley: DrScheme is a Scheme system, Emacs uses Emacs Lisp, and we use Common Lisp. They are all very different languages. 18:24:53 i see 18:24:55 wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 18:25:19 in common lisp, would what i posted above be acceptable? 18:25:25 jamesstanley: and no language is allowed to call itself just "lisp" to avoid misunderstandings ;-) 18:25:31 ok 18:25:35 No, we'd have (defun square (x) (* x x)). 18:25:43 ok 18:26:02 (Or (defun square (x) (expt x 2)) (or is it (expt 2 x)? I forget...)) 18:26:17 ah that works in emacs lisp too 18:26:26 putting the parentheses round (x) instead of (square x) 18:26:26 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has left #lisp 18:26:29 and using defun instead of define 18:26:33 What should a beginner do after finishing Practical Common Lisp? 18:26:38 Bootvis: Practice! 18:26:42 on what? 18:26:43 start writing code 18:26:53 Anything. Find a project or start your own. 18:27:01 Mess about, explore ideas. 18:27:01 Find idea, then start hacking code 18:27:02 irc bot 18:27:09 but I understand it's enough to start something decent 18:27:10 so if emacs lisp and scheme are not what i'm looking for, can anyone recommend an interactive common lisp interpreter? 18:27:13 for linux 18:27:23 jamesstanley sbcl 18:27:27 well 18:27:31 that compiles by default 18:27:36 A lot of us here use SBCL. 18:27:39 ok 18:27:40 CLISP is good too 18:27:41 yakman_: so? 18:27:43 so is CCL 18:27:43 thanks will think about it 18:27:44 yakman_: Doesn't make it not interactive. 18:27:48 this is a pretty pro-sbcl channel =P 18:27:56 i dont know, he said interpreter 18:28:02 i thought that might be important to him 18:28:05 SBCL has an interpreter now 18:28:05 i'm getting clisp and sbcl, and i'll see which i prefer 18:28:19 yakman_: It -never- is important. After all, all code is interpreted at some level. 18:28:20 yakman_: I don't think he knows compilers can be interactive 18:28:22 If you are doing this from the command line, get rlwrap too 18:28:26 qbg: ccl doesn't appear to be in pacman in arch 18:28:37 it's in aur though 18:28:47 You can check it out of SVN though 18:28:49 clisp and sbcl should be enough for me to be getting on with 18:28:50 Oh, and beware distro lisp packages. 18:29:12 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:29:13 If they go wrong (and they tend to), it can be hard to get help. 18:29:16 jamesstanley: step 1: download SBCL binary from sbcl.org. step 2: get clbuild. step 3: compile new sbcl. step 4) lisp! 18:29:27 i've nearly got sbcl out of pacman 18:29:28 tcr: hi. did you find time to rerun profiles? 18:29:32 minion: clbuild? 18:29:33 clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 18:29:39 sbcl pacman works for me 18:29:46 i didnt konw about the evilness until now 18:30:19 ok sbcl looks ok 18:30:42 jamesstanley: http://unya.wordpress.com/2009/06/07/linux-common-lisp-quickstart/ 18:30:42 jamesstanley: you're also going to want to investigate emacs+slime for your development environment. It's really the only way to go. 18:30:54 ok 18:30:59 to both of you 18:31:23 SBCL is nice for a new person (and everyone) because it will tell you what is wrong with your code 18:31:30 ctp [n=ctp@brsg-d9bee4e9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:33 (well, enforce some style) 18:31:39 clisp and sbcl both converted my lowercase square in to SQUARE 18:31:46 which as a c programmer i find disconcerting 18:31:49 The reader uppercases by default 18:31:54 its just a symbol 18:32:00 All of the symbols in CL are uppercased also 18:32:04 ok 18:32:09 You get use to it 18:32:16 jamesstanley: if you want to be a lisp programmer, you'd better stop thinking like a C programming quickly ;) 18:32:17 so square and Square are the same thing in common lisp? 18:32:20 left your C feelings, it's Lisp! 18:32:20 jamesstanley: i would consider bad style to have 'Symbol' and 'sYmbol' 18:32:24 yeah drewc that's why i'm trying to learn lisp 18:32:28 no, they're not. 18:32:35 consider it bad style* 18:32:42 s/left/leave/ 18:32:44 minion: tell jamesstanley about pcl 18:32:45 jamesstanley: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 18:32:51 ok 18:35:06 i just downloaded slime, and it says to put (setq inferior-lisp-program "/path/to/lisp-executable") in my .emacs 18:35:09 cirquitz [n=cirquitz@59.164.40.62] has joined #lisp 18:35:12 which lisp executable is it talking about? 18:35:21 SBCL in your case 18:35:25 ok 18:36:08 why is it considered inferior? 18:36:22 the s in slime mean superior 18:36:28 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:28 i suspect some in joke 18:36:33 ok 18:36:40 because emacs controls it 18:36:43 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:45 is it wise to learn how to use an ide and a new language at the same time? 18:36:47 jamesstanley: in Emacs, "inferior process" means process started by Emacs to do some job, controlled by it 18:36:49 lisp + slime ? 18:36:54 yakman_: yes 18:37:06 it's crucial 18:37:07 yakman_: Superior because it's better than ilisp. 18:37:49 inferior because the lisp runs as an "inferior" or child process, which is terminology that dates back to ITS or possibly earlier. 18:37:58 ok 18:38:07 i don't know a great deal about emacs internals 18:38:29 yakman_: you'll have to if you want to get anything out of it whilst learning... but I'd actually prefer if both could be learned separately 18:39:03 i learned them seperatedly sort of 18:39:06 learning* 18:39:17 im nearly finished pcl and only started emacs yesterday 18:39:41 You really don't need to know a lot of emacs to use SLIME, which is nice 18:40:02 There is also a slime cheat sheet online 18:40:11 Lectus [n=lectus@189.105.5.188] has joined #lisp 18:41:19 out of interest, has anyone here ever used a hardware lisp machine? 18:41:36 Does emulation count? 18:41:40 do they even still exist? 18:41:46 cp2: Yes, they do. 18:41:49 oh man 18:41:52 they sound cool 18:41:55 They're old, but... 18:41:56 "gotta get me one" 18:42:00 jamesstanley: I did many years ago. 18:42:03 nice 18:42:06 they didn't all get blown up, but they aren't *made*... 18:42:14 That's how I learned lisp. 18:42:19 depends on what you mean by "exist" there. :) 18:42:20 LiamH: how fast was it compared to interpreted lisp? 18:42:29 willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 18:42:47 jamesstanley: current lisp implementations aren't interpreted, they're compiled, just like C. 18:42:57 ok 18:43:00 Hi! I want to learn Lisp but I am unsure if I start with scheme or with common lisp. Which one is more practical? I need an implementation that's cross-platform (Windows and Linux) and compiles to native code. Any advice? 18:43:10 start with common lisp 18:43:23 I had nothing to compare it against, but overall one of the things Symbolics suffered from was designing/building their own hardware. So the hardware was always behind the leading SPARC etc. designs. 18:43:25 Lectus: Yeah, ask the Scheme people. :-P 18:43:29 Lectus: well, there's a book called Practical Common Lisp, so I think CL wins ;) 18:43:38 hehe 18:43:43 stassats`: what's the recommended implementation for Common Lisp that fits my criteria? 18:43:47 Hey guys, this is bugging me. I'm doing the excersizes in "The elements of artifical intelligence using common lisp". Anyway I'm on question 16 in chapter 2, which is reproduced online in this document: twig.lssu.edu/courses/fall05/cs490/assignment7.doc The thing is i'm pretty sure there's a typo in the diagram but I'm not positive and am very confused. Anyone wanna check it out for me? 18:43:54 Lectus: Compare such things as ECL (a Common Lisp) to the various Scheme->C compilers. 18:44:23 Lectus: Can you be more specific when you say "native code"? 18:44:34 LiamH: It seemed to me that their problems were mostly caused by other issues 18:44:41 Lectus: Do you just need an executable that can be run? 18:45:04 p_l: for sure, but the hardware design cycle didn't help 18:45:13 native code = compile to x86 executables on windows and linux... but even it's not native I'd be ok if it can bundle the interpreter in a stand-alone executable 18:45:16 SBCL runs on windows, but it has a kitten of death warning 18:45:36 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 18:46:04 Well, with Lisp you don't typcially produce executables like you do in C 18:46:15 qbg: I do. :) 18:46:39 Lectus: For Windows, you can use personal "learning" editions from Franz (AllegroCL) and Lispworks, as well as rather cheap Corman CL. From free implementations, you have ECL (kind of hard on newbies, IMHO), SBCL with its kitten-of-death, clisp (interpreted, no threading) and ClosureCL (isn't as nice as SBCL, but has less problems on windows, afaik) 18:47:04 clozure cl! 18:47:19 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 18:47:22 you could probably use GCL, but last time I checked, it was far behind when it came to standards (no threading, as well) 18:47:22 p_l: What makes Clozure less nice than SBCL? 18:47:44 no kitten of death? 18:47:46 sellout: I meant "less nice for newbie" 18:48:00 p_l: The question stands. 18:48:01 but much better in that than ECL, IMHO 18:48:17 sellout: I'd say debugger etc., at least when you run without slime 18:48:22 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 18:48:24 i think lisp could do with something more accessible than emacs, as a accepted dev environment 18:48:37 clozure is really nice, though i miss sbcl's profiler 18:48:45 cusp? :) 18:48:45 Guthur: If you're on OS X, Clozure has an IDE. 18:48:47 Guthur: Emacs is extensible in Lisp. It's nirvana. 18:48:58 what do you mean by kitten of death 18:49:00 sellout: SBCL's REPL was nicer, but I think SLIME evens out. And when you get hang of SLIME etc., there's no difference, I guess 18:49:02 sounds like a euthamism 18:49:10 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:49:40 luis but so is a lot of IDE's now a days, its just very cryptic, 18:49:59 Guthur: what other IDEs are extensible in Lisp? 18:50:06 yakman_: SBCL has (had?) certain issues with fitting its memory model into win32 (still better IMHO, than what happens on fascist grsec settings...) 18:50:18 luis: lispworks? ;) 18:50:22 well of course not, in lisp, if there was i would probably use it ;) 18:50:25 and thats called a kitten of death 18:50:30 yakman_: it awaits you on windows version of sbcl 18:50:31 Guthur: what do you have against emacs? 18:50:48 yakman_: due to various problems, some builds for windows had a big warning printed on startup that kittens of death await you 18:51:01 every builds? 18:51:08 jamesstanley i have just to yet find the advantage 18:51:14 i see 18:51:30 besides the fact that there is little alternative 18:52:10 its just a learning curve i suppose, but i would rather be learning lisp not an IDE 18:52:11 someone told me something about slime evaluating statements under the cursor or something like that 18:52:33 jamesstanley i used kate that comes with kde for a few months, i dont think it did me any harm 18:52:42 i used kate for years 18:52:46 i did finally get it working though :p need to edit the .emacs 18:52:47 its nice isnt it :) 18:52:50 i switched to emacs and it just felt a lot nicer 18:52:52 kate's fairly nice yeah 18:52:59 Guthur: there is ABLE, CUSP, clim-desktop, allegro IDE, lispworks IDE, CCL IDE and a couple of others around and you're free to use them. 18:53:00 can i iterate over the slots of a CLOS class? 18:53:23 demmeln: yes, using closer-mop:class-slots 18:53:45 drewc, i'll have a look, a lot of references were pointing to emacs, 18:53:58 Guthur: having said that, use emacs. 18:54:01 jao [n=jao@94.Red-88-6-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:04 jamesstanley: who's Kate? *rimshot* 18:54:14 drewc: ABLE doesn't exist anymore (or at least, it has gotten a different name and is not the able it used to be) 18:54:25 luis: yes that's what all my friends were like... 18:54:27 they found it hilarious 18:54:34 :P 18:54:50 Guthur: you'll probably dislike it at first, but emacs probably is the way to go. If you do find something else that worked good, feel free to notify me of it :) 18:55:05 actually can i use hex colour values, i had to look through and try a few named colours to try and get the background i like 18:55:06 madnificent: http://phil.nullable.eu/ ? 18:55:15 still not right though 18:55:20 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4720.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 18:55:40 which seem bizarre in something like emacs 18:55:44 drewc: ah, it must've been named back to ABLE then... at least for some time it had another name 18:56:04 Guthur: you can use hex 18:56:13 I like a background of #090909 18:56:25 there's nekthuth for ViM lovers, but I don't know how it compares to SLIME 18:56:36 Umm.. I just did (asdf-install:install :mcclim) I think bad things happened 18:56:40 S11001001 set-background-color #090909 ? 18:56:41 nothing compares to slime 18:56:42 of course this is only meaningful for emacs-x11, for terminal you need to change the terminal preferences 18:56:52 Guthur: M-x customize-face default 18:56:54 p_l: a plugin for eclipse that actually works, that'd be something many people like 18:57:08 madnificent: like cusp? 18:57:15 S11001001: you mean you like a background colour indistinguishable from black? 18:57:17 madnificent: wasn't Cusp about that? Done by company that uses CL internally? 18:57:21 drewc: if it would work nice, yes 18:57:31 madnificent: what's wrong with it? 18:57:37 jamesstanley: I could *easily* tell the difference, and it was much easier on my eyes 18:57:42 Guthur: (set-background-color "#090909") 18:57:45 you got a crt? 18:57:53 LCD 18:57:55 any use of Cusp I've seen resulted in "lost a day on it, I'll try to learn emacs" (three people) 18:57:56 and still 18:57:57 wow 18:58:10 i can't tell the difference between #0b0b0b and black on my lcd 18:58:18 so #090909 is out of the question :P 18:58:26 perhaps I should try it myself and see if I can get it to work... 18:58:40 madnificent: so you've not tried it, yet are claiming in public that it doesn't work because 2 noobs gave up? 18:58:49 I think my eyes were trying to focus on the background at 000 and couldn't, but can at #090909 (which my terminal is also set to now) 18:59:02 drewc: I've sat right next to them... all 3! 18:59:08 istassats the set-background-color didn't seem to work, did i need the () 18:59:14 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:17 drewc: I can't possible imagine that they'd be that bad... 18:59:20 Pavitra [n=benjamin@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:26 S11001001 that worked though thank you :) 18:59:30 madnificent: you're just not imaginative enough. 18:59:34 i'm a happier coder now 18:59:38 -!- Pavitra [n=benjamin@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has left #lisp 19:00:23 drewc: ok, I can imagine that... but it's very unlikely... therefore it seemed safe to claim that here, as it is for the newbies that eclipse would be handy 19:00:56 *stassats`* has background slightly darker than 090909 19:02:07 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:03:02 Hum. Using SBCL 1.0.28.70 I get some weird error when a compiler-macro expands to a defstruct 19:03:15 I mean, expands to a struct. 19:03:28 SBCL complains that there is no MAKE-LOAD-FORM method 19:03:45 *Fare* thinks about putting the defstruct into an eval-when ... 19:03:47 Is Eclipse for newbies? 19:03:54 Guthur: M-: (set-background-color "#...") 19:05:27 (thanks for your attention :) ) 19:06:17 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:06:29 istassats thats pretty much what i tried but with out parentheses, but i have edit default now, which is probably more what i wanted anyway, cheers though, i now have my nice light cream :p 19:06:30 Maybe it is for Lisp newbies already comfortable with Eclipse, but I can't imagine sitting a new programmer down in front of that...nightmare 19:06:47 clhs progv 19:06:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progv.htm 19:07:04 EEEEEC: my background on "InvEmacs" when the sun makes my glossy too hard to read white-on-black text 19:07:53 S11001001: in my university roughly everyone uses eclipse. Outside of that, most non-microsoft-centered programmers use it too 19:08:00 o_O 19:08:09 really? 19:08:18 are you claiming that the majority of programmers use either visual studio or eclipse? *cries* 19:08:19 how did it get so popular outside of java? 19:08:35 that's *TERRIBLE* 19:08:48 madnificent: outside of "wow advanced people", in my year everyone was hunting/pecking with mouse in BlueJ ;_; 19:08:59 S11001001: indeed. 19:09:23 Visual Studio isn't bad...if you use C# 19:09:42 but visual studio didnt spread to other languages like eclipse 19:09:43 but using C# is bad anyway 19:09:44 yakman_: many vendors build their "IDE" as Eclipse extensions. And frankly speaking, compared to Eclipse, I'd go with Visual Studio 19:10:03 Compared to VS or Eclipse, Emacs is pretty pathetic really. 19:10:17 *p_l* has only one eclipse plugin, that is, TOMOYO GUI configurator 19:10:25 from non-emacser perspective 19:10:29 i do not see the advantage of visual studio or eclipse over emacs 19:10:34 they don't do anything useful that emacs doesn't do 19:10:34 i only use eclipse for java, i dont konw why anyone would use it for any other language 19:10:47 drewc: just tried to install cusp, and here too, it fails. Cannot connect to lisp instance :) 19:10:47 C# isn't to bad, if your shooting for a windows platform you might as well use .Net 19:10:54 you're* 19:10:54 jamesstanley: useful debuggers, profilers, jumping to definitions that works, project management, etcetc. 19:11:07 drewc: so, at least it doesn't work out of the box (with sbcl etc installed up front) 19:11:14 jamesstanley: I mean, emacs has those things, but it's just not as good. :) 19:11:23 i see 19:11:40 p_l: your cry seems to be a fair reaction... 19:11:45 madnificent: try harder perhaps? contact the author? I use emacs personally, so i don't really care you see. 19:12:04 foom: debugger and profiler stuff isn't done by Emacs, but it's part of tools that you can hookup to Emacs. Though I admit, hooking up DDD to Emacs would be hard 19:12:09 madnificent: i probably couldn't make it work, i know nothing of eclipse or java. 19:12:26 -!- Lectus [n=lectus@189.105.5.188] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:12:30 drewc: I don't like it when people say that those that I know are probably utter failures ;) so I tested CUPS for myself now... I could try harder, I might even try that... think twice when defending it 19:12:41 I like GUD 19:12:50 foom: Can I argue with you that emacs is better than those things too? 19:12:54 p_l: they must be astonished when you code in lisp+emacs then? 19:13:02 in my year I was probably the only one who bothered with a stepping debugger instead of << 19:13:03 madnificent: ask Jasko he should know something 19:13:38 madnificent: their jaws hit the floor with NetBeans. Seeing SLIME would kill them 19:14:00 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 19:14:42 CL is to SLIME as C/java is to xrefactory ( http://www.xref-tech.com/xrefactory-java/main.html ) 19:15:00 p_l: LoL 19:15:11 stassats`: Jasko is a co-dev of it? 19:15:42 madnificent: you gave up after 5 minutes and you want me to what? think that eclipse is poor? cusp is poor? 19:16:22 madnificent: yes 19:16:24 Anyways, I use emacs full time, but I do sometimes look over at people doing java dev and I've gotta say Eclipse is pretty tempting. 19:16:36 jmbr [n=jmbr@27.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:16:39 foom: Look at xrefactory 19:17:30 drewc: I simply want you to not judge people in 10 seconds... I've spent more time on it than you, but still you must judge :) 19:17:52 stassats`: I'll remember the name then! 19:18:17 Quadrescence: pity it won't work on my JDK 19:18:30 foom: I *must* code java for school from time to time. I notice that my (acceptably fast) typing speed is still the only limitation in using it... therefore I dislike it :) 19:18:42 foom: that is java, not eclipse (clearly) 19:18:46 p_l: Aw. I haven't used it with Java. But I use it with C, and it is incredible. 19:19:29 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.118.116] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:19:51 *p_l* has Java 1.7 19:19:57 madnificent: i'm not judging people here, this is a technical channel and i'm judging technologies. In my experience those who use cusp have no trouble with it. My experience ranges a little further than the three people who sit beside you. 19:20:02 On rare occasion I feel the same, but that's why I keep an Eclipse install around. I start it up, do a little coding, get incredibly frustrated, and go back to Emacs. 19:20:19 p_l: It might not be able to interface with Java, but it might be beneficial for the code browsing 19:21:02 *drewc* sighs and apt-gets eclipse 19:21:11 ._. 19:22:19 drewc: in that case, you should've mentioned that :) 19:22:37 drewc: I'll look into it later. I don't have a windows to test it on, which is a bit sad 19:22:45 *madnificent* gets some food 19:24:41 ejs [n=eugen@113-36-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:14 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has joined #lisp 19:26:56 http://paste.lisp.org/display/81604#1 -- am I on the right road to writing C code easier? :-) 19:27:30 Corun [n=Corun@wavelan69.doc.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:27:31 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:50 scexp seems to be very cool 19:28:09 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:28:15 pierre-: i doubt it ... i wouldn't hire a C programming if he showed me that, and if you want lip you know where to find it :P 19:28:20 lisp_newbie [n=alan@pcd567174.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 19:28:23 want lisp* 19:29:35 -!- Corun [n=Corun@wavelan69.doc.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 19:30:10 so it generates C code from Lisp-style sexprs 19:30:12 then again, i use parenscript for javascript programming, so i might be a hypocrite here if i can't find the subtle distinction ... 19:30:13 ...like ECL. 19:30:39 issue with java is tho that you are pretty much forced into some of these heavy weight environments. keeping track of the java shit (be it ant or whatever else) from emacs was /way/ to much of a hassle for my last project at least. 19:30:51 drewc: JS is closer to Lisp than C 19:31:10 I don't get why you would want to write C with S-exps 19:31:25 writing Lisp with s-exps, however, I do get. 19:31:35 why not? isnt a lot of "core lisps" pretty much C with S-exps? 19:31:48 no. 19:31:49 ehu`: i was tired of c preprocessor 19:32:06 A lot of "core" lisps are more like conventional lisp than you'd think. 19:32:07 pierre-: now, that I *do* get :-p 19:32:36 hello, I am about to explore lisp. would anyone introduce the differences between the different implementations such as clisp, sbcl, etc... thanks. 19:32:50 lisp_newbie: sbcl, go! 19:32:57 lisp_newbie: it doesn't matter to you. pick one and go. 19:32:59 lisp_newbie: http://common-lisp.net/~dlw/LispSurvey.html 19:33:10 lisp_newbie: if you want free, get SBCL. if you want easy and quick and dirty, get lispworks. 19:33:10 lisp_newbie: http://lmgtfy/?q=lisp+implementation+comparison 19:33:19 lisp_newbie: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=lisp+implementation+comparison 19:33:28 thanks guys / gals. 19:33:51 lisp_newbie: What is your usual IRC nick? 19:34:20 I seldom use irc :) 19:34:28 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:29 okay, just checking 19:35:35 dlowe: that is nice, a more subtle jfgi, will have to remember 19:35:47 is binding, say, 10000 gensyms VIA progv a really bad idea? SBCL, for one, doesn't seem to be happy with me. 19:35:59 err.. via PROGV* 19:37:01 drewc: well, in ABCL you could. 19:37:04 no problem. 19:37:07 :-) 19:37:23 <_3b> doesn't sbcl only give you a few thousand specials? 19:37:25 Loading quux/request-id.fasl 19:37:25 CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 10166(tid 140737354069728): 19:37:25 Memory fault at 0 (pc=0x10010706b1, sp=0x7ffff6e1daf0) 19:38:00 something's wrong. I saw Leslie Polzer post things about SBCL doing bad things with type declarations and SAFETY < 3 ... 19:38:12 _3b: in total? 19:38:25 <_3b> ehu`: that was my understanding 19:38:27 clisp doesn't seem to care either ... i get a stack overflow at 1,000,000, which is probably understandable. SBCL just gives me "set_pseudo_atomic_atomic: pseudo atomic bits is -1246094944." 19:38:33 wow 19:38:33 _3b: that seems to be that case. 19:38:57 -!- ctp [n=ctp@brsg-d9bee4e9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:39:05 I'm not saying I think ABCL is efficiently doing it, but it wouldn't be an issue. 19:39:08 because specials are stored in thread local storage and it's limited? 19:39:13 Fare: see my response to that 19:39:14 drewc: sbcl version? 19:39:39 demmeln: that's correct (in case no one else answered). derive from (I think) basic-gadget 19:39:40 I think (speed 3) may have been implied 19:39:42 mega1: "1.0.28.70" 19:39:47 stassats`: but then you'd be able to store a pointer in threadlocals, no? 19:41:38 it's limited in generic/params.lisp: (def!constant tls-size 4096) 19:42:26 Looks like it's someone calling a FFI before the thing was even loaded. 19:42:37 I wonder how it even worked at all 19:44:24 Okay, I have a threading question. I need thread-local variables. Special-binding semantics would be nice, but not necessary. 19:45:06 I need to be able to know when the variable hasn't been set up for a given thread and to set it up at some point after thread creation. 19:45:11 drewc: this should have been "fixed" by "1.0.16.21: lose informatively when the tls is full" 19:45:21 nyef: SBCL? I've got that on lisppaste. 19:45:40 mega1: want a simple test case? :) 19:45:40 And I'd like it to be reasonably portable, if possible. 19:45:54 drewc: no, I have one. 19:46:10 it bitrotted 19:46:35 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.104] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:46:42 nyef: have a look at DEFDYNAMIC and DYNAMIC-WIND from ContextL.. you can use the 'rebinding' semantics to get what you want IIRC 19:46:49 various other implementations have a way to define bindings that should be established when a thread is created. bx-threads might have a wrapper/emulator. 19:47:03 drewc: safe with threads? 19:47:20 This is for CLX, so the least adventurous dependencies prefered. 19:47:21 bordeaux has a thing for default dynamic bindings when creating threads 19:47:23 nyef: otherwise a weak hash table of thread object -> environment? 19:47:43 kroger [n=user@adsl-76-204-17-162.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:43 has anyone tested scigraph on McCLIM? 19:47:49 aha, that piece of code always lived dangerously, but it was pushed over the edge by the EBP pseudo atomic trick 19:47:54 I know for SBCL I can just hammer the TLS block as needed. 19:48:11 I also have a portable fluid (doing what pkhuong said), whose implementation you can find in clsql-fluid 19:48:32 pkhuong: should be. 19:48:40 drewc: I'll fix it, but you'll only get a proper error message out of it. 19:48:43 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:49:12 (I suppose I could introduce an explicit SBCL dependency in my CLX tree. Dunno how popular that'd be.) 19:49:28 mega1: lets hope i can keep my dynamic environments small enough! 19:49:52 nyef: if you're bordeaux-friendly, you can use that 19:49:54 mega1: maintain your own instead of hacking it up with progv. 19:50:08 pkhuong: that was to me i assume :) 19:50:12 mega1 forwards to drewc 19:50:18 erh right (: 19:50:24 hey, got mcclim installed :) 19:50:39 congratulations 19:50:54 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:57 merimus: did you use clbuild? 19:51:07 drewc: asdf-install 19:51:25 drewc: or change tls-size in compiler/generic/parms.lisp 19:51:27 oh my! then you've achieved something, that's for sure. good job :) 19:51:41 and now I have to figure exactly what the heck it is :P 19:51:59 -!- lisp_newbie [n=alan@pcd567174.netvigator.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:52:17 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:52:30 merimus: can you run examples? 19:52:56 mega1: is there a physical/practical upper bound? 19:53:24 drewc: 1 word/TLS index/thread. 19:53:24 adding one to it uses one word per thread 19:54:05 ok, that's good to know. thanks! 19:54:14 merimus: Install climacs 19:54:20 :) 19:54:21 stack sizes dwarf the cost of tls 19:54:22 slower GC too, I guess. 19:54:37 stasats': indeed 19:54:40 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.15] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:55:54 stassats`, where did you reply to lpolzer? 19:55:56 gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:56:25 *stassats`* forwards to S11001001 19:56:38 Fare: twitter 19:56:48 -!- cirquitz [n=cirquitz@59.164.40.62] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:56:49 sorry, I assumed that's where you saw it 19:57:19 -!- ejs [n=eugen@113-36-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:57:25 http://twitter.com/S11001001/status/2087171206 19:57:36 in reply to http://twitter.com/lpolzer/status/2087134513 19:57:41 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:00 aight, climacs is theoretically built... how do I fire it up? 19:59:13 (climacs:climacs) 19:59:26 hey, woot! 19:59:28 or (climacs:climacs-rv) 19:59:53 now I've got all kinds of crazy stuff i don't know what is 20:00:15 S11001001, stassats` thanks 20:01:23 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 20:01:56 -!- merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has quit [] 20:02:47 -!- Intensity [i=[1ShoZMA@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:03:03 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:05:28 -!- demmeln [n=demmeln@atradig120.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:06:33 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:07:40 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 20:08:28 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:09:51 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:53 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:56 If someone actually cares about the TLS issue, it'd probably be possible to allocate an overflow-storage-area hash or something like that for symbols that don't fit in the fast linear vector. 20:13:21 GCing tls indices would be good then. 20:13:43 could do that on major GCs. 20:14:04 Being able to expand the TLS vector would be nice as well. 20:14:09 Intensity [i=[AOwW3yl@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 20:14:17 tombom_ [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 20:15:10 -!- tombom_ [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Client Quit] 20:15:31 hum. Is it OK for a gf to have methods with plain &rest arguments and others with &key arguments? Smells fishy to me... 20:15:57 Fare: I don't see why it wouldn't be OK. 20:16:18 Fare: Yeah, that's totally fine. 20:16:31 it looks like to me SBCL is complaining about it: The function has an odd number of arguments in the keyword portion. 20:16:44 it's a STYLE-WARNING only, but still. 20:17:07 pkhuong: yes, this is the perfect opportunity to motivate yourself to commit your tls gcing stuff 20:17:19 Err... you do need to take into account arglist congruency, of course. 20:17:25 Fare: if you have &rest &key, the rest part must be a key-value plist. 20:17:32 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 20:17:42 mega1: I think it'd be better to do it by compaction instead of a free list like I had. 20:18:17 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:22 The question is about (defmethod foo ((x Foo) &rest stuff)) (defmethod foo ((x Bar) &key whatever)), right? 20:18:36 Corun [n=Corun@94-194-27-43.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:19:19 the question is about an implicitly created generic with llist (x &rest y &key &allow-other-key), rather, no? 20:19:34 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 20:20:26 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:21:11 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:20 *stassats`* is trying to figure out how to use ABCL's debugger 20:24:21 does the debugger know about the binding stack? otherwise, why are we storing symbols instead of tls indices there? 20:24:42 oh, it printed "type :help" at start-up 20:25:17 *nyef* would be frightened of changing the contents of the binding stack given how overloaded it is already. 20:25:25 milanj [n=milan@77.46.210.198] has joined #lisp 20:25:36 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:25:39 nyef: but if you change it maybe you'll have to figure out how it works and document it. :) 20:26:23 It's not the "figure out how it works" bit that frightens me, it's the non-symbol-binding stuff that ends up there, such as frame unwind markers. 20:26:36 Or whatever they were. 20:26:42 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-53-104.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:26:42 For unwind-to-frame-and-call-vop. 20:26:50 -!- krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-69-147.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:26:53 I'm getting a "control-stack-exhausted" error in SBCL, doing heavy stdio processing. The stack trace doesn't show a giant recursion, either. Any ideas what else trips tha error? 20:27:19 Phoodus: Heavy stack-allocated dynamic-extent values? 20:28:31 hmm, I'll check 20:28:59 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:29:21 but shouldn't those get cleaned up if it's properly tail recursing? 20:29:44 I think hell is overated 20:30:14 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:30:17 instead they should try weblocks 20:30:19 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:30:59 manuel__ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 20:31:02 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 20:31:12 buggetty, buggety, bugety bug 20:31:21 argh!! 20:31:24 Phoodus: it's not tail recursive[D[D[D[D if you're doing dx allocation. 20:31:45 (interesting wifi snafu) 20:32:07 yo 20:32:08 yeah, thought you were doing one of those stupid^H^H^H^H^H^H fake word deletes or something 20:32:45 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.210.198] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:33:28 milanj [n=milan@77.46.210.198] has joined #lisp 20:34:16 -!- Intensity [i=[AOwW3yl@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:35:08 I'm not seeing any recursive dynamic closures either 20:35:37 -!- yakman_ [n=bot@94-194-134-155.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:35:56 well, you can stack allocate too much in one function 20:36:09 paste the code. 20:36:34 the backtrace has reading from stdio, then gc stuff, then mapc backtrace is where it dies on error reporting. It doesn't seem to be dying in our stuff 20:36:46 pkhuong: it's big 20:36:56 and commercial 20:37:29 extract minimal test-case 20:37:36 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.210.198] has quit [Client Quit] 20:37:51 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:37:55 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@193.52.24.125] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:38:28 We've just had problem after problem after problem trying to get lisp stdio programs working 20:39:17 what's lisp stdio anyway? 20:39:34 using stdin/stdout to communicate with it as a launched service 20:42:08 milanj [n=milan@77.46.210.198] has joined #lisp 20:44:44 Why can I both say (require 'foo) and (require :foo)? 20:44:48 This mystifies me. 20:44:57 they're both just symbols 20:45:05 antoszka: the first argument is a string designator 20:45:38 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:34 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:46:35 Well, the first is equivalent to (require (quote foo)), but I thought that :foo is just :foo. 20:46:50 Which would make foo and :foo somewhat equivalent. 20:46:57 There's something really basic I'm missing. 20:47:30 <_3b> :foo evaluates to :foo 20:47:37 Yeah. 20:48:00 (quote foo) evals to *package*::foo, while :foo evals to keyword:foo 20:48:04 both still just symbols 20:48:12 <_3b> or rather the form :foo evaluates to the symbol :foo, the form (quote foo) evaluates to teh symbol foo 20:48:33 <_3b> and both symbols have the symbol-name "FOO", which is what REQUIRE looks at 20:48:39 Aha. 20:49:17 That explains it. Thanks. 20:49:48 So they're different symbols, but with the same string value of (symbol-name ...), right? 20:50:00 <_3b> probably, yes 20:50:10 right, the same name just in 2 different packages 20:50:12 <_3b> (you could arrange for 'foo and :foo to evaluate to the same symbol) 20:50:18 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:50:42 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:14 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 20:51:32 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:52:21 (require '#:foo) and (require "FOO") would work to, 20:53:10 tihonov [n=kef@kefeer2.convex.ru] has joined #lisp 20:53:12 -!- MrSpec is now known as spec[away] 20:55:47 -!- bzwahr [n=user@bloc-bzwahr-lap.tamu.edu] has left #lisp 20:56:45 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:57:37 mega1: fbsd patch didn't work. recompiling with sb-show. 20:58:06 pkhuong: ok, define SHOW_SIGNALS too 20:58:16 -!- pierre- [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has left #lisp 21:00:13 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:02:27 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:06:37 admit it, it's boroke.. again 21:07:18 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:07:22 just go hrough the source and fix it! 21:08:31 I'tsnot like I am the best person 21:08:53 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:02 In fact I am a sorry ecuse for a human being 21:09:38 but at least I care, and at least i fight 21:10:52 what are we talking about? 21:11:25 and my source turns out alright, soly because i know wnought and care enough to get it right.. 21:11:50 know 21:12:23 manic12: jthing just entered younder-mode 21:13:07 lol 21:13:51 sorry all I think I will take a reat 21:13:57 rest 21:14:00 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 21:14:29 see you tomorrow 21:14:57 (too many beers) 21:15:44 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6FA09.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 21:15:48 mega1: i'm upgrading my ports so i can build a working but gdb, but building with QSHOW_SIGNALS shows that we die right after the first memory fault 21:16:19 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:16:20 slyrus_: the question is when does that happen? 21:16:50 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:30 -!- kroger [n=user@adsl-76-204-17-162.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:18:46 6308224 exiting dynbind tls alloc 21:18:47 6308224 Memory fault at: 0x625000, PC: 0x100256d108 21:19:20 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 21:19:22 WHEN! 21:19:30 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 21:20:18 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:20:57 mega1: oh, could the 4th arg to memory_fault_handler be bogus? 21:21:29 *stassats`* got no luck with abcl+gray-streams+slime 21:22:06 abcl generally loses 21:23:10 slyrus_: that would trigger a host of memory-fault conditions 21:23:28 well, we're dying on the first one 21:23:46 DUH 21:24:22 slyrus_: what happens before that? 21:24:58 I may be a drunk abnoxius motherfucker but: 21:25:25 don't drink and lisp 21:25:55 slyrus pasted "freebsd x86-64 error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81610 21:27:51 and my gdb's borked too 21:28:24 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:04 no wonder 21:29:41 utf what? 21:30:00 8, 16, 32 21:31:25 slyrus_: it's very late, I'll look at it later 21:31:33 good night folks 21:31:40 night mega1 21:31:40 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:31:45 good night 21:35:29 -!- ausente is now known as Aleister_Crowley 21:36:14 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-197.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 21:36:28 <_3b> guess emacs23 (at least the ubuntu snapshot) doesn't fix my swank-slime encoding problems :( 21:37:04 23? 21:37:12 my emacs will only run for so many days before it flakes out :\ 21:37:20 unicode with large code-points? (that's what emacs23 fixed for me) 21:37:23 Were all working with 22 21:37:31 <_3b> yeah, odd large code points 21:37:44 _3b: for example? 21:38:02 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4720.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:38:12 <_3b> not sure yet, i'm getting garbage chars somewheree, so no idea what they are since it kills emacs if i try to debug them :) 21:38:36 <_3b> wonder if DRIBBLE works with slime 21:39:00 -!- tihonov [n=kef@kefeer2.convex.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 21:39:01 (dribble) 21:39:05 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:39:15 How hard can it be ro test 21:39:38 jthing: you promised to take a rest 21:39:43 _3b: C-x C-s? 21:39:57 <_3b> tcr: ? 21:40:22 You have a point, later.. 21:40:22 _3b: DRIBBLE will not work for the slime repl, but there's C-x C-s 21:40:32 -!- jthing [n=jthing@254.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 21:40:40 argh... the irony of it all... i'm trying to upgrade my ports tree so that I can upgrade to a working gdb, but I get this problem: fetch: sbcl-1.0.29-source-r2.tar.bz2 appears to be truncated: 2325488/3275747 bytes 21:40:44 <_3b> tcr: C-x C-s doesn't help if the connection dies before the char i want to look at gets to emacs :) 21:41:40 _3b: I guess you already looked into *inferior-lisp*, and *slime-events*? 21:42:00 <_3b> or if emacs is wedged in a infinite recusive debug loop for that matter 21:42:33 <_3b> tcr: yeah, slime-events tends to look like it only read part of a message, but deleted the interesting bit already :/ 21:43:24 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-9.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:45:37 <_3b> tcr: if i'm diagnosing the problem right, the problem is sbcl and emacs disagreeing about the encoding of strangfe characters, so the cheracter count in the swank->slime messages doesn't match 21:46:05 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:30 _3b: you don't using :fd-handler communication style by any chance? 21:46:39 s/using/use/ 21:47:05 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-53-104.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:47:09 <_3b> should be :spawn 21:47:23 <_3b> yep, looks like it is 21:48:21 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:49:46 *stassats`* wonders whether java is really so unpleasant for my eyes or it's just abcl's code 21:53:38 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:27 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:55:27 stassats`: a little bit of both. 21:55:53 Actor-Based Concurrent Language ? 21:56:03 minion: what does ABCL stand for? 21:56:04 Apostematic Bionomic Common Lisp 21:56:46 "No definitions were found for apostematic." 21:56:58 Sometimes I really wonder about minion's word database. 21:57:06 Err... 21:57:17 Guthur Armed Bear Common Lisp 21:57:21 Actually: Armed Bear Common Lisp. Don't fiddle with it. 21:57:30 Too late :-( 21:57:49 stassats`: which part of the code are you looking at? 21:58:07 nyef ya i am more confused now 21:58:17 ehu`: SlimeOutputStream.java 21:58:25 heh! 21:58:32 ok. now I get why. 21:58:43 what are you trying to find out? 21:59:03 maybe I can help 21:59:21 why *standard-output* isn't bound to slime-output-stream 21:59:48 <_3b> ok, (string (code-char 56320)) seems to be a simple test case, breaks on emacs 22.2.1 and 23.0.91.1 22:00:06 stassats`: isn't that supposed to happen elsewhere? 22:00:10 like in swank? 22:00:24 -!- nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving the office."] 22:00:47 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:00:52 it is, i was just looking at what arguments accept make-slime-output-stream 22:01:45 how can i clear defined functions in slime 22:01:52 stassats`: I think a function? 22:01:53 ,restart 22:01:54 _3b: are you in an utf-8 locale? That codepoint is in the range of 16 bit codepoints that take 3 bytes to encode... 22:02:41 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.179.120] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:02:43 <_3b> pkhuong: yeah 22:02:49 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.61.194] has joined #lisp 22:02:49 stassats` thanks 22:03:01 ehu`: right 22:04:27 ehu`: and also, are gray streams working at all? 22:04:45 gray streams don't really work, no. 22:05:12 I tried to hack in a quick change, but it doesn't seem to help. 22:05:23 ok 22:05:33 I tried to make all old-streamp 22:05:46 checks also check for xp::xp-structure-p 22:06:16 but somehow stream-write-string ends up being called anyway. 22:06:25 through write-string. 22:07:11 however, it looks like the function binding on write-string does get replaced with gray-write-string. 22:07:29 so, that means old-streamp doesn't return T on xp::xp-structure-p 22:07:34 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 22:07:40 I think it should. 22:08:17 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:08:21 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:09:08 sellout [n=greg@24.128.50.176] has joined #lisp 22:12:35 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:18:34 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 22:18:44 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:20:38 stassats`: I think the problem has to do with the fact that there's a write-string in the pprint.lisp file and another one in the gray-streams.lisp file. 22:20:45 no idea how they interact yet. 22:21:17 me especially 22:23:04 i know it's a pretty lame question but...is there any noteworthy open source projects that make significant use of lisp 22:23:06 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.210.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:23:16 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:23:31 Guthur: Maxima; OpenAxiom; others. 22:23:52 ok. cu tomorrow 22:23:59 Emacs uses Emacs Lisp 22:24:18 thanks ehu' 22:24:40 stassats' i was complaining about emacs earlier remember ;) 22:24:41 many people are familiar with common lisp because of stumpwm, the window manager 22:25:05 oh i meant common-lisp sorry i should have qualified that better 22:25:35 Guthur: I suspect the most common application that people who don't know anything about CL use that is written in CL is Maxima 22:25:57 it's probably one of the very few apps that are regularly packaged by distros, too :D 22:26:20 and people who write Maxima don't know much about CL either 22:26:21 i'll check it out, i have to admit i have no clue what it is :) 22:26:41 stassats`: some of that code is for Maclisp, in fact 22:26:52 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:27:23 hhh i have an algebra sitting right beside on the desk 22:27:29 though I haven't tried compiling it under Maclisp - I suspect parts of it require newer Lisp, plus it would kill poor 4MW KS-10 22:27:30 algebra book* 22:27:32 that's ok, they'd rather be good mathematicians, than progammers 22:28:28 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:28:53 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has quit [] 22:29:07 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:56 p_l: I would say not Maxima so much as QPX 22:30:19 S11001001: I meant it "as they installed it themselves" 22:30:32 AFAIK QPX isn't installed by end users for personal use :D 22:31:35 webapp developers might say that's a pointless standard with regard to "use" 22:32:49 they seem rather aimed at academia, which is what i suspected would be the case 22:33:20 who? 22:33:53 people writing a compute algebra system? shocking! :) 22:34:13 ya i know thats what i meant 22:34:42 its not really shocking i realised it from the beginning was just looking so couldn't say so ;) 22:34:49 who else would a CAS be aimed at? 22:36:02 amateurs? 22:36:19 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 22:37:17 *stassats`* occasionally uses maxima 22:37:24 *Ralith* also 22:37:58 engineers could also use CAS, i guess 22:38:57 CAS? 22:39:13 .acr CAS 22:39:35 computed algebra system 22:39:51 or computer 22:39:51 mathlab? 22:40:09 maple 22:41:16 Yuuhi` [n=user@p5483E048.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:56 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:42:56 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E048.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:42:56 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:42:56 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:17 salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has joined #lisp 22:43:17 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:43:17 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 22:43:21 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:43:26 salex` [n=user@216.80.147.206] has joined #lisp 22:43:36 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:43:42 elias` [n=me@host217-42-207-213.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:43:46 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:45:32 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:48:17 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.255.212] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:48:32 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["leaving"] 22:51:58 -!- keithr [n=keithr@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:52:16 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:52:50 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 22:55:13 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:50 RamzaB [n=lobomonh@ip72-197-207-250.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:06 <_3b> does sbcl's DRIBBLE try to buffer the entire output of each form before writing it? 23:02:37 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has joined #lisp 23:02:37 <_3b> or does the output of TRACE not get dribbled? 23:03:51 _3b: trace goes to *trace-output*. 23:04:13 <_3b> guess i should redirect that by hand then? 23:05:50 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:17 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 23:06:52 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@27.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:09:27 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:09:58 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:11:26 <_3b> hmm, maybe it wasn't encoding, maybe i was just trying to print too much at once or something 23:11:56 that tends to kill slime rather badly on my end too. 23:12:03 S11001001: excuse my foul language, but webapp developers can ... no, I'm not gay, so I'm not going to put that here... 23:12:35 sir_mud [n=sir_mud@unaffiliated/sirmud/x-838753] has joined #lisp 23:12:44 eyo 23:12:53 -!- gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:12:53 <_3b> pkhuong: badly enough to render emacs unuseable? 23:13:05 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:52 Have to C-g a couple times and kill the debugger, while emacs keeps complaining about exhausting the specpdl stack. 23:14:02 <_3b> yeah, that sounds like it then 23:14:02 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit ["leaving"] 23:14:32 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:15:36 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:16:12 ugh, communication-style nil is terrible 23:16:33 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:16:38 p_l: okay then. 23:17:13 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:17:47 <_3b> wonder if i'm reading correctly that slime assumes nothing writes more than 999999 characters at once 23:17:59 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:18:36 -!- qbg [n=qbg@65-73-86-56.dsl1.mnd.mn.frontiernet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:19:14 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 23:19:37 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:20:20 bah, emacs is unusable with more than a couple MBs anyway. 23:20:28 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:21:03 <_3b> heh, dumping trace output to a file, the part i wanted was about 2.5M lines in :/ 23:21:45 <_3b> but yeah, i wouldn't object to trunctating it as an alternative to dying horribly 23:22:06 <_3b> given that succeeding in sending it might just break it in other ways :) 23:22:14 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:23:16 S11001001: Web Apps can be written in anything without impact on user, so I guess they are out of "end users running stuff written in language X" game :) 23:23:36 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 23:24:32 i'm just about to start a web app in lisp :) 23:24:52 Only if you believe that the effects of language semantics on software quality somehow disappear across HTTP. 23:24:53 not going to be live though, host doesn't offer it :| 23:24:56 -!- sir_mud [n=sir_mud@unaffiliated/sirmud/x-838753] has left #lisp 23:26:40 S11001001: If you mean "no matter what it's written in, if UI is served over HTTP, it evens out to `sucks`", then yes ;-) 23:27:13 <_3b> ah, looks like it is limited to #xffffff not 999999 23:27:15 yay for xcvb 0.306 compiling itself! :) 23:27:30 it's not perfect, but it works! 23:28:34 congratulations! 23:29:44 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:30:02 its some web browsers wheren't so sucky in the rendering of the HTML standard it wouldn't be so bad 23:30:37 *stassats`* still isn't able to hook himself to write some lisp code, including xcvb 23:30:38 not pointing any fingers....i don't even have to we all know who it is :) 23:31:11 lynx? 23:31:19 closure? 23:31:20 :P 23:31:28 hhh possibly but the people that use it don't count ;) 23:31:32 -!- guaqua [i=gua@212.226.140.97] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:31:35 guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 23:32:05 i sometimes use lynx to pull linux nvidia drivers when I have X shutdown 23:32:23 that's ok, we'll wait till netcraft will confirm that 90% of internet users use Closure 23:33:06 but it could be argued that if you are using those browsers you are not going to consume a web app 23:33:20 stassats`, if you want to hack xcvb, I propose to add some feature that's useful but not worked on right now, like the ASDF backend, or the in-memory loader. 23:35:06 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 23:35:54 probably later, now i'm quickly become bored when i start to write something, even my own code 23:36:04 though, debugging slime seems to be fun 23:36:05 happens. 23:36:18 Thanks for unsticking me with the Makefile backend, btw. 23:36:30 main thing is: have a goal 23:37:45 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:40:33 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:30 fare its hard to know what though, the world only needs so many revisions of Word and photoshop etc. 23:41:45 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:43:59 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:52:42 Guthur: I wonder about that sometimes: when is software finally "done" 23:53:07 never, obviously 23:53:25 stassats`: (La)TeX will stop developing. 23:55:33 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:55:43 its easier to sell new features than old software (in general cases), which probably has a lot to do with it 23:55:48 -!- khumba [n=khumba@206.87.16.104] has left #lisp 23:55:55 market departments will soon take over all development :p 23:56:01 marketing* 23:56:14 Guthur: Well, I guess I see the 'why' with commercial software. 23:56:27 chumsley [n=user@vpn36.cs.ubc.ca] has joined #lisp 23:57:49 my setup now seems as functional as ever, and it arguably has less 'features' than windows. i'm current running ubuntu 23:57:56 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 23:58:16 i tried KDE this morning and i was like, nah i don't need this crap 23:58:36 sorry for the little foulness there 23:58:36 Guthur: Amen. 23:58:52 its nice and all, just not very useful 23:59:00 everything seems further away 23:59:37 We should all just use 80x25 ttys, and a video port for occasional pornographic needs. 23:59:38 <_3b> guess i should enable some swap before i try to run multiple 1-2GB sbcls at once :p 23:59:51 looks a lot nice than aero actually, KDE