00:01:16 -!- Ppjet6 [n=ppjet@ivr94-11-88-187-39-7.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:01:51 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB"] 00:01:58 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCF862.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:40 Ppjet6 [n=ppjet@ivr94-11-88-187-39-7.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:20 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:06:33 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:57 it looks like a fairly simple format, but does anyone know of a .fig parser for lisp? 00:10:14 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 00:10:15 -!- df12 [n=user@24-180-44-180.dhcp.reno.nv.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:11:48 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-145-86.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:13:05 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:13:52 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:01 -!- The-Kenn1 [n=moritz@p5087B68B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:20:10 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 00:21:42 ohmighod [n=user@91.79.41.140] has joined #lisp 00:24:03 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:28:50 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:33:09 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:35:09 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1D308.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:36:48 who's in charge of clim-desktop these days? 00:37:54 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has left #lisp 00:38:13 the null set 00:38:20 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCF862.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 00:40:30 -!- speps [n=speps@151.66.67.231] has left #lisp 00:41:15 Just tried out weblocks today 00:41:43 Same old problem with huncentoot refusing to close a connection. 00:41:54 (not a weblocks issue) 00:42:57 -!- Ppjet6 [n=ppjet@ivr94-11-88-187-39-7.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:42:58 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:59 fe[nl]ix: bummer 00:43:46 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6F3E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 00:43:50 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 00:43:55 Who's in need of common lisp DE? There's always StumpWM. 00:44:12 The same problem haunting my blog SW. 00:44:14 Ppjet6 [n=ppjet@ivr94-11-88-187-39-7.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:55 Just I've just to fix huncentoot. Though I dread it. 00:45:22 hunchentoot 00:46:28 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:47:28 Enlighten me, why the package name in clim-desktop.asd is defined as a keyword, with leading colon? I don't know asdf yet, I'm working my way through Shapiro's textbook. 00:48:15 <_3b> probably to avoid interning it into some arbitrary package 00:48:20 ohmighod: so it dosen't clutter up the name space of whatever package imports it 00:48:22 ohmighod: the first argument to CL:DEFPACKAGE is a string designator 00:48:34 Maybe all I need as a long hard dive into some established lisp codebase. Suggestions are welcome. 00:48:50 better still is #: which is uninterned in any package 00:49:00 s/as/is/ 00:49:29 ohmighod: try cl-ppcre 00:50:02 you can't go wrong with that one 00:50:14 it has a bit of everything 00:51:22 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-177.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:52:36 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:52:51 kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 00:52:51 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:56:12 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 00:56:30 Thank you, that looks promising. Even though it haven't been updated in just under a year, it's well documented and as practically useful as it gets. 00:58:00 Oh, I get that keyword package-naming convention now. 01:05:43 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-73-30.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:06:47 how do i tell clisp which function to run when i load a script with clisp from the commandline ? 01:07:17 <_3b> doesn't it just evaluate the file? 01:07:53 Yes, how are command line arguments handled? 01:08:36 I bet this is all mentioned in the clisp documentation. 01:09:00 <_3b> ohmighod: implementation specific, usually there are arguments to specify files to load, etc, and some variables lisp code can look at to see what arguments were passed when the lisp was started 01:09:01 Docs say there's ext:*environment-list* 01:09:27 and *posix-argv* 01:09:59 and plenty more. And some of these special variables are, indeed, implementation-specific. What a bummer. 01:10:30 <_3b> well, where would command line args come from on a lisp machine? :) 01:11:18 From twenty-first century. 01:12:23 <_3b> most lisps running on posix-like systems probably have something similar though, sb-ext:*posix-argv* on sbcl for example 01:12:38 <_3b> (assuming that isn't what you meant by ext: ) 01:13:19 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-28-252.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:14:44 illegal terminating character after a colon: #\ :-) 01:16:50 -!- Drakeson` is now known as Drakeson 01:17:46 clisp -x '(progn (load "hello.lsp") (hello) (quit))' 01:17:53 doesn't work 01:17:58 clisp -x '(load "hello.lsp") (hello) (quit)' 01:18:30 that works, but i get all the clisp noise printed out of course 01:19:19 <_3b> maybe clisp -q -l hello.lsp -x "(hello)" ? 01:20:21 <_3b> putting it in the progn makes it read the whole form before loading the file, so HELLO isn't the HELLO from the file 01:20:45 -!- rswarbrick [n=user@cpc1-cove3-0-0-cust907.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:21:09 <_3b> i'm guessing without it, it evaluates each form before READing the next 01:22:48 _3b: progn preserves toplevelness. 01:23:20 <_3b> pkhuong: does that apply here? 01:23:29 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:04 Unless there are package issues, the order in which tokens are read into the same symbol doesn't matter. 01:26:40 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:27:21 <_3b> ah, right 01:27:52 g06|in [n=Spitfire@cpe-71-74-84-48.insight.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:28:54 -!- Corun [n=Corun@94.194.31.231] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:30:07 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-4-124.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:30:44 does progn suppres printing to stdout ? 01:30:53 <_3b> it shouldn't 01:34:03 erig [n=erig@hobbes.space.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 01:34:58 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:27 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:42:52 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.151.89] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:44:20 clisp -q -q -x '(progn (load "hello.lsp") (main))' 01:44:33 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:41 that works, i omitted the (quit) 01:47:57 -!- mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:48:32 <_3b> you could probably just put the (main) at the end of hello.lsp 01:49:17 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:51:55 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-1dd34545d9d0cbad] has joined #lisp 01:52:36 -!- saikat__ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:02:08 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:33 -!- nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:03:37 nyef_ [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:59 Hunh. The story behind the Worse is Better story. Neat. 02:06:22 does that make the story worse, or better? 02:07:28 It improves the story in a manner consistent with the worse-is-better approach. 02:08:10 hefner: I committed an initial version of tex-image-2d support to my CLX tree earlier today. 02:09:13 so, hefner, no large complex floatsy code base? 02:10:21 -!- ohmighod [n=user@91.79.41.140] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:10:36 nyef_: interesting. I loaded up clim gl-pane test, and it did draw a pretty square on the screen (don't recall if it even did that before), then froze waiting to read a reply like it always did, and I again found myself thinking I'd really prefer a single process SBCL to debug things :) 02:11:26 I have a threaded SBCL, but only use one thread, which probably makes it easier. 02:12:01 looks like we could lift some packed complex stuff directly from cmucl, verbatim. Naming conventions++ 02:12:18 pkhuong: not large or sophisticated, but maybe small, hacky, and bitrotted. 02:12:24 At least, I think it's a threaded SBCL. Might not be... 02:13:38 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:15:57 Umm... How many threads do you have doing GL operations? 02:17:17 hefner, nyef: is there a nice way to handle linear transformations of images with clx? or do we need to transform them and then send to clx? 02:17:43 nyef_: just the one, but on a threaded lisp mcclim has a separate thread reading events in a loop and doling them out to event queues, and that event thread got hung up. 02:18:08 saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 02:18:31 so I figured either there's a locking issue, or the state of the clx connection got screwed up. 02:18:55 Yeah, I'm looking at obvious thread-unsafe things in glx.lisp now. 02:19:38 After that, my next step is to look at the procedures being used for low-level hackish things and see if they're appropriately thread-safe. 02:21:16 ohmighod [n=user@91.79.41.140] has joined #lisp 02:21:52 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C3C7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:22:06 slyrus: pure X11 provides no help at all. xrender can supposedly do linear transformations, but like anything in xrender other than text rendering, it's probably a fantastically slow software fallback on most machines. 02:22:47 (sounds fun to try, though) 02:23:15 I'd say "you can always just use OpenGL texture mapping", but that doesn't seem quite likely yet. 02:24:08 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:24:49 *hefner* cried when he got his first test of xrender compositing going on his laptop with crappy radeon driver, and it drew so slowlt that you could see it scan from top to bottom. 02:26:11 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:39 -!- frobar [n=ulf@h-88-48.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit ["leaving"] 02:29:15 Hrm. All the low-level hacking I see is safely within WITH-DISPLAY. 02:31:05 How do you know it's the event thread that's locked up and not another thread? 02:31:06 -!- tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:32:45 *hefner* wonders if he looked into this closely enough. 02:33:11 anyway, my impression is that it was just sitting there not doing anything. 02:33:34 Might have been. 02:33:59 I had lockups related to desynched request sequence numbers at one point. 02:34:42 *hefner* revives his mp3 player, which had been out of commision for want of 20 minutes hacking to finish fixing an unlikely race in the mixer. 02:35:07 Basically, the client did a with-buffer-request-and-reply, but the server had seen more requests than the client knew about, so the reply had a different sequence number than the client expected, thus didn't get matched up, thus hung. 02:37:46 What do people around here use mostly for plotting data directly from lisp (say, for quick visualisation of data)? 02:38:08 I like html :) 02:38:08 Sikander: gnuplot or dotty, although I will probably use ubigraph in the future. 02:38:32 pkhuong: you use gnuplot directly from lisp? 02:38:53 as opposed to? 02:39:23 pkhuong: Ok, up to now, in lisp, I'm printing to a file, and plotting that file from gnuplot cmdline 02:39:58 just tried cl-plplot, but I get some instabilities (memory problems) 02:40:00 run-program or whatever the equivalent is on your favourite lisp. 02:41:30 hmm... 02:41:39 Sikander: mcclim, or dump it to a text file and plot it in octave/matlab 02:41:54 Pavitra [n=benjamin@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:58 hefner: mcclim has plotting abilities? 02:42:05 neat 02:42:12 not as such, but it has line drawing abilities ;) 02:42:18 d'oh 02:42:37 hmmm, someone should make a mcclim graph widget 02:43:22 maybe a good way for me to become more familiar with mcclim... 02:43:24 If you want something that's in-process, there's tamas papp's cl-2d. 02:44:04 just tried it, but I had some problems compiling, with respect to asserted and derived types in axis.lisp 02:44:29 also just tried cl-plplot but there's the instability when plotting to either X or xcairo 02:44:50 that's where you either try another revision, or use the source to fix the problem. That's likely to be much less work than diving into clim. 02:45:34 I tried several revisions... :( 02:45:46 cairo is haunted. 02:45:47 maybe I should try even older ones 02:46:13 potentially the one from may 19th. 02:46:18 I vowed to myself to start using lisp more, but these things get in the way 02:46:33 I'll try that one 02:47:10 -!- ohmighod [n=user@91.79.41.140] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:48:24 *Sikander* is not that familiar with git... 02:48:29 you can also try pasting the error you got. 02:48:45 git log/git checkout [sha1 hash] 02:49:20 pkhuong: thanks 02:51:08 well, there's only the one initial commit. 02:51:21 pkhuong: I saw... 02:51:34 and I see that it's on asdf as well 02:51:43 on asdf? 02:53:54 sorry I meant cliki (I guess); asdf-install can find it 02:56:53 Sikander pasted "error when compiling axis.lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81523 02:58:21 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:32 looks like you might have a different (older?) version of metabang-bind than tkpapp. 02:59:10 pkhuong: ah... I'll update it 02:59:31 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 03:00:08 (bind ((values ...) ...) ...) seems to be expected to expand into a multiple-value-bind. 03:01:15 dalton [n=ebsjux@187.35.194.80] has joined #lisp 03:01:20 holy cr*p! it worked! 03:01:31 thanks pkhuong 03:03:00 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:03:50 I'm still a bit overwhelmed by the debugger output of sbcl, and find it difficult to read. 03:04:11 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:05:38 that's not the debugger. You could have run the code (modulo asdf) to get a runtime error and land in the debugger. 03:06:32 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:07:07 ok 03:07:13 -!- Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:07:34 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:36 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-9bd54c95ee81715f] has joined #lisp 03:07:40 Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:17 is there a job market for lisp programmers ? 03:08:46 Yes, but you might find it easier to expand it than to find a place in it. 03:09:46 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:32 on second thought, it didn't completely work; still some errors. I'll look into it a bit better.... 03:10:52 this is why I stick to plotting with external tools.. 03:11:07 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:21 hefner: ok, well i guess the good news is that if I otherwise implement that nobody will say that I should be doing this in CLX or in hardware then 03:12:11 slyrus: You should be doing it with OpenGL. :-P 03:12:12 hefner: yeah, but it is somewhat nice to work in lisp and, while writing functions or something, verify the effect by quickly plotting 03:12:30 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:02 just what I need, screwy forign code crashing my lisp when I'm trying to get something done. ;) 03:13:45 dang, it seemed to work because of stale fasls. But when trying something specific, it still doesn't work properly 03:14:04 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:14:09 *sigh* 03:14:30 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-220-250-44.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:51 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-220-250-44.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:16:49 I think it is disappointing where python has matplotlib, lisp has... well... nothing 03:17:10 cl-2d seems to be nice, if I can get it to work 03:17:51 nothing indeed. writing a function to dump some data out for plotting takes about 60 seconds. anything more is just to show off. 03:18:03 :) 03:18:23 or, you know, communicate with gnuplot over a pipe or so 03:18:42 ah, wait, there's something there... 03:18:59 I'm sure there's a library to do that already. 03:19:08 (or several) 03:19:54 hefner: I think I'm going to give up for now, and then perhaps later in the week ask you to help me get set up with McCLIM and your test code so that I can try and debug it. 03:20:01 that's what i meant with the overly vague "there's something there", on Cliki there's a whole thing about it 03:21:16 nyef_: cool. 03:21:44 Though I think the first step would be to get it to hang and then interrupt all the threads to obtain backtraces. 03:24:06 Hey, can someone make a lisp joke? I'm very in the mood. :) 03:25:32 jlf` [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:26:00 Well, no one with stand-up comedy aspirations here 03:26:18 nyef_: tbh, i'm all for making opengl a requirement for the X11 backend, but I doubt others would agree with that 03:27:48 Sikander: I know hefner has aspirations. 03:28:35 Quadrescence: in that case, I'm very interested to hear some cutting-edge material 03:29:57 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.130.148] has joined #lisp 03:34:35 Lisp joke? Well, there's always the bumper sticker "My other car is a cdr" 03:35:16 How about 'my other lisp is gay'? 03:36:11 -!- z4v [n=tmh@18987146231.nit.megazon.com.br] has quit [Client Quit] 03:37:35 anfairch [n=user@c-24-16-32-126.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:11 One of these days I fully expect to see a motorcycle with a license plate of "RPLACA". 03:38:22 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.255.200] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:38:41 heh. 03:38:46 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:38:51 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 03:39:01 hexa [n=hexa@modemcable058.106-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:39:31 Hi, is it possible to init a slot value with the value from another slot? like this: 03:39:38 (defclass fifteen-puzzle () 03:39:39 ((size :initarg :size :initform 4) 03:39:39 (board :initform (make-array (list size size))))) 03:39:59 obviously that doesnt work 03:40:01 anfairch: No, for this situation you use either an initialize-instance method or a constructor. 03:40:02 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:02 hi all , i'm quite new to lisp and I need to parse some xml.. I tryed using s-xml but lol it fails if I get a "&" in a tag. any suggestions of a good xml parsing lib that works with sbcl ? 03:40:36 thanks nyef_, I thought that would be the case 03:41:05 Okay, time I got some sleep. 03:41:07 -!- nyef_ [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 03:41:34 minion: tell hexa about cxml 03:41:35 cxml: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/cxml 03:42:20 saikat__ [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-173-208.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:44 pkhuong, :) thx seems much better 03:43:13 I've never used cxml myself, but it seems to be well-respected 03:44:48 saikat___ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 03:48:35 tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:48:45 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:49:54 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 03:51:07 saikat____ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 03:58:06 btw you guys know if it's possible to have arrow support in the sbcl interpreter ? the number of typos I can do while typing an asdf-install string is suprising .. not beeing able to use the left arrow to correct something is somewhat of a pain ... ? 03:58:27 I believe there is a readline interface library. 03:58:40 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:59:22 hexa: don't use the raw REPL. You can wrap it with rlwrap (and similar tools), use the sb-aclrepl contrib, or, the better option, use SLIME. 03:59:51 pkhuong, yeah not sure on how to do that in slime.. since it's just an emacs buffer... 04:00:20 not sure on how to use the left arrow in an emacs buffer? 04:00:30 :) 04:00:42 Phoodus, I mean it will edit the buffer .. lol but like using the up arrow won't show the history... 04:00:48 M-p and M-n are slightly less obvious. 04:00:51 alt-p 04:01:05 C-h b 04:01:10 can you also cursor up and press enter to bring a prior line onto the current line? 04:02:01 -!- couloir [n=chatzill@96.49.120.130] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:02:03 -!- saikat__ [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-173-208.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:02:53 haaa nice :) hehe thx 04:03:15 -!- saikat___ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:03:19 -!- Pavitra [n=benjamin@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:04:15 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-96-84.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:28 note to self: never ever ever again start a 'web app' by programming. take the time to flesh all the html in *.html files, you will have plenty of time "refactor" that later into an app. 04:05:49 8th time has been the charm for me 04:05:59 I keep it simpler than that 04:06:06 "never ever ever write a 'web app'" :) 04:06:21 fusss: html, javascript and goog-ajaxslt? ;) 04:06:25 clean, semantic html with divs and nothing else. a few

foo

's to fill in for stuff that will come from ajax later 04:07:15 pkhuong: i don't even know what "xslt" stands for. honest. 04:07:29 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 04:08:16 I wonder what the real development load difference is nowadays between writing a custom client/server app, than having to write a web app 04:08:23 web app development is just like GUI development, if you were inventing the GUI toolkit, usability and L&F conventions, and had no idea what OS it would run on. 04:09:00 fusss: And assumed mouse is the only input device :> 04:09:25 and the client retains no state other than cookies 04:09:41 -!- TDT [n=TDT@126.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:09:50 It'd be a fairly embarassing state of affairs if writing desktop apps is at all harder than writing web apps, given the inherent difficulties with the latter. 04:09:53 *hefner* wonders 04:09:58 Phoodus: The difference is that client-server might have a working client. 04:10:06 heh 04:10:17 p_l: ayeeffinmen! 04:11:32 kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 04:11:32 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:12:14 jeez, i am addicted to lisp after only a few faltering attempts at using it 04:12:23 Phoodus: Also, HTTP isn't good protocol to work over... 04:12:40 fawxtin [n=user@189.11.191.205] has joined #lisp 04:12:51 zophy: it only gets more addictive over time, especially after macros start to click in 04:13:00 zophy: that's quite common for people who waded through first hurdles (which usually means prefix notation and Sexps) 04:13:27 hefner, if you use qt, you'll find that it is more difficult to do things that would b eeasy to do in a web app 04:14:10 sohail: any examples? 04:14:11 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:14:50 that's why stuff like Tk exists 04:15:00 sohail: I've used Qt on several occasions, and although I've never written anything but the most trivial toy web apps, I suspect your statement only holds true for extremely simple applications. 04:15:00 p_l, i'm still trying to print out a list with style 04:16:23 And Qt is one of the easiest to use GUI toolkits around, so it seems an unwise target to pick on. ;) 04:16:30 Pavitra [n=benjamin@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:56 *p_l* shudders when he remembers his first encounter with Swing 04:17:21 How does Qt stack up to Tk in terms of ease of making straightforward GUI apps? (non-canvas plain widgets & layout) 04:19:19 *hefner* has never used Tk 04:20:01 hefner, p_l try putting a link in a view 04:20:18 oh I didn't mean to say it is generally easier in web apps 04:20:20 I meant to say *some* things 04:20:23 oops :-) 04:20:38 a what in a what? 04:20:57 as far as GUIs go, I'm very interested in Windows Presentation Foundation. 04:21:00 try having rich text in a table view 04:21:07 p_l, you might like qt's kinetic 04:21:10 it's pretty nice 04:21:27 hefner, interactive rich text, that is 04:21:56 not impossible, but not as easy as whatever 04:22:06 -!- erig [n=erig@hobbes.space.umn.edu] has quit [] 04:22:33 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 04:22:52 I'm going to try and make an app using webkit for the UI to see what I can complain about there 04:23:27 sohail: you could use Qt's fantastic webkit widget, although I'll admit to not knowing offhand how to wire that into an application to do something useful 04:23:35 (aside from showing web pages) 04:23:49 hefner, there's a dude on #qt who showed me a desktop app with the gui in 100% webkit 04:23:53 looked awesome 04:24:01 personally, I think the future might lie somewhere in between 04:24:21 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:24:27 hefner: you can create js-callable native entry points in WebKit (that's how iTunes work) 04:24:35 iTunes doesn't use webkit afaik 04:24:36 probably, although I'm holding my hopes for nuclear holocaust instead. 04:24:45 lol 04:25:00 hefner: Gray Goo, man, Gray Goo 04:25:15 why put off until tomorrow what we could do today? 04:25:38 I'm leaving this planet as soon as we get finished nanofabs. I was thinking of going somewhere beyond Mars orbit 04:25:53 the future is bright! 04:26:02 but yeah, I figured you could hook into WebKit. 04:26:04 but space is dark! and space is the future! 04:27:09 Phoodus: it's not dark when your power level goes over 9000 (couldn't help it, srsly) 04:28:00 though I guess that if you adapt your sensory data to include all kinds of radiation, not only light, space is bright already 04:29:07 Good morning. 04:29:23 *beach* doesn't believe there can be an "awesome" GUI application. 04:30:14 that's just because you've been using mcclim for too long. ;) 04:30:23 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:30:30 hmm... 04:30:50 Well, for my needs, GUIs required would be quite simple... problem - there are no toolkits oriented around that, and while hacking something in HTML wouldn't be hard, browser support is too heavy 04:31:17 what are your needs, exactly? 04:32:36 hefner: lightweight, something similar to presentations already available... I'd have to write it down exactly 04:32:37 *hefner* can't fathom why emacs uses the width of the frame instead of the particular buffer window (or whatever they call it) when deciding wheether to wrap or scroll in a split screen configuration 04:33:04 GUIs as graphical beings make it hard for me to explain, as I've got the mental image, but not necessarily written form 04:33:19 I just wish people would stop inventing new things. It's getting really annoying. 04:33:29 haha 04:33:45 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.190.69] has joined #lisp 04:33:48 also, GUIs designed for usability without mouse :3 04:35:01 tiled UI organisation is also quite nice 04:35:12 RenJuan [n=juan@pool-71-186-211-60.bflony.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:14 Octopus might be close, now that I think of it 04:36:19 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:36:46 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:18 To some extent, I'd go in the opposite direction of tiling, and often have a number of transparent layers of objects mixed together, with some visual indicator of which you were operating on/in. 04:38:46 hefner: that's good too. As long as I can navigate it efficiently without mouse 04:38:57 depends on the application, of course. I *hate* MDI-style subwindows. 04:39:15 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.190.69] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:39:22 also, anything that pops up on my screen then makes me scroll within a tiny box. (hate hate hate) 04:39:23 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.190.69] has joined #lisp 04:40:29 basically, I have two targets. Desktop and mobile. Mobile includes possibly stuff that might display info on HUD and have chording keyboard as only input. 04:42:07 *hefner* would love to get paid to sit around and prototype funky UIs :) 04:42:20 hefner: I'd love to be paid for anything 04:42:28 well, maybe not *anything* 04:42:39 oh, right. darned economic downturn. 04:42:52 jlf` [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 04:43:39 fawxtin` [n=user@189.75.32.229] has joined #lisp 04:44:03 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 04:45:50 -!- RenJuan [n=juan@pool-71-186-211-60.bflony.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:47:10 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:48:20 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Client Quit] 04:52:33 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:57:33 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-157.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:59:44 -!- fawxtin` [n=user@189.75.32.229] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:02:44 -!- fawxtin [n=user@189.11.191.205] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:11:34 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-9-170.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 05:12:21 eh... time to relearn RoR and Merb 05:14:29 hefner: if it was new things it would be ok. No, the problem is people re-inventing old things. 05:17:04 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:51 animalmachine [n=timothy@ip68-101-217-50.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:58 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:19:07 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:12 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-23-159.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:24:04 -!- Stanton is now known as Jarvellis 05:24:49 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-251-238.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 05:27:23 splittist [n=dmurray@76-145.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 05:27:25 morning 05:27:35 -!- nuntius [n=nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:28:30 splittist: morning 05:29:15 -!- duende_inside [n=muggli@68.166.118.234] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:29:39 hello splittist 05:29:59 pjb: perhaps, yet progress seems to be measured by the ability to trade an old set of problems for new ones 05:30:27 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 05:31:54 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:32:48 If we hadn't done that we might be really, really good at living in caves by now ... 05:33:07 nah, we'd have ran out of caves pretty quickly. 05:33:34 Unlikely, if we hadn't traded up our problems. 05:35:01 Trading up implies we solved our old problems before moving on. :) 05:35:17 Not in English, it doesn't. 05:36:17 Okay, maybe it does. 05:36:43 (doesn't) 05:37:11 Hmm. If I trade up from a Datsun to a Mercedes, I don't still have the Datsun. 05:37:32 But not having a problem isn't the same as solving it. 05:37:59 (necessarily) 05:38:00 *hefner* hates this place. 05:42:23 -!- ausente is now known as dalton 05:44:00 herbieB: Hey, with the little free time I have, I've been playing with Nekthuth, but can't seem to get the help to work 05:44:13 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:44:18 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 05:44:51 Sikander: You downloaded the hyperspec? 05:45:02 Sikander: And set up all the variables? 05:45:19 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 05:45:30 herbieB: Yep, I also checked that files can be found as per the docs, but when using Clhelp, it, well... doesn't work somehow 05:45:40 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 05:46:45 Sikander: And this works: (probe-file (merge-pathnames #p"HyperSpec/Front/X_AllSym.htm" (pathname nekthuth::*hyperspec-location*))) 05:46:51 saikat__ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 05:47:01 -!- saikat____ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:47:16 Sikander: If you just open up lisp randomly and do (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'nekthuth)? 05:48:49 herbieB: yes 05:48:53 herbieB: that works 05:49:00 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 05:49:12 Sikander: Ok, pop over into #nekthuth :) 05:51:11 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 05:51:36 ejs [n=eugen@218-38-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:36 aquateen [n=chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:38 -!- hexa [n=hexa@modemcable058.106-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:04:13 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 06:04:19 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:04:23 hello 06:08:21 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-76-122-37-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:50 splittist: where does your clim directory listing stuff live these days? 06:11:02 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 06:12:09 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-135-152.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:24 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087EBEE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:43 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:14:18 slyrus: good point. 06:14:21 *splittist* searches 06:15:03 splittist: i suddenly find myself motivated to start using clim again after a few-months hiatus 06:15:28 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-96-84.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 06:15:28 slyrus: I don't think there's anything post http://common-lisp.net/projects/ftd/ that is public. Lichtblau (?) once threatened a hostile fork to bring it up to date... 06:17:08 The clim stuff needs updating for the newer tab implementation (I think there's an old paste with that code somewhere). And the cffi stuff needs updating for the new cffi. So, other than the model and view, all is hunky dory (: 06:20:17 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087EBEE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:23:16 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:28:20 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["g'night"] 06:28:24 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 06:28:36 -!- saikat__ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:28:49 saikat__ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 06:28:51 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:28:53 jmbr [n=jmbr@154.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 06:33:10 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:33:27 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@154.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:34:38 bobf_ [n=bob@host86-147-205-177.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 06:35:49 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 06:40:01 slyrus: on a more positive note, I think ftd does show how easy it is to write something with CLIM+ESA, and how if you work with (rather than against) the paradigm you can concentrate on the functionality while the magical gui stuff Just Happens. 06:40:37 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:43:34 ruepel0r [n=rue@203.97.49.162] has joined #lisp 06:44:29 qebab [n=finnrobi@unicorn.nnordmark.com] has joined #lisp 06:44:49 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:45:02 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.130.148] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:46:02 mega1 [n=mega@53d82961.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:46:23 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:47:04 -!- Pavitra [n=benjamin@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:47:53 I keep waffling between lisp and haskell as a language to study in depth 06:47:54 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:48:35 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.129.97] has joined #lisp 06:48:48 ASau [n=user@host168-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:52:37 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:43 Ralith: Why not both? :) 06:53:19 Phoodus: because I have a million other things I want to do too :P 06:53:30 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-155-234.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 06:53:58 *Jarvellis* gets lisp and haskell drunk 06:54:02 *Jarvellis* lowers the lights 06:54:07 *Jarvellis* hopes for the best 06:54:24 *Ralith* would like to see that happen 06:54:33 Ralith: do you enjoy history? Lisp has more of it. 06:54:37 Ralith, I learned Haskell first, at school. Then Lisp. How about briefly looking into both? 06:54:43 splittist: no, but I enjoy maturity. 06:54:56 Write a haskell REPL in lisp 06:54:58 tic: I've done that; written myself a decent IRC bot in haskell, and gotten a little way into PCL. 06:55:21 Well, what's funniest? 06:55:25 funniest? 06:55:41 Which of the Haskell IRC bot experiment and the PCL reading gives you the most pleasure? 06:56:09 honestly, probably the PCL, but that's unfair because I don't know monads and they were largely responsible for the pain in the bot. 06:56:54 Ah, yes. The computation boxes. It's a threshold, like macros I guess. 06:57:05 well, macros made perfect sense to me right away 06:57:47 perhaps I don't know them very deeply, but I have a basic working knowledge; enough to get by, I feel. 06:58:20 but as hostile as haskell seems I can't help but love the elegance of how it does partial application, and the implicit type system. 06:59:02 the nice thing about Lisp is that you can implement Haskell in it 06:59:10 can you not implement lisp in haskell? 06:59:17 in fact.... the first implementation of Haskell /was/ in Lisp. 06:59:32 Lisp is a very good playground for language ideas. 06:59:40 that's attractive. 07:00:25 but it doesn't go the other way around? 07:00:36 *hefner* wonders an appropriate update of the "pyramids versus organisms" analogy would be to update it to Haskell (rather than Pascal) versus Lisp. 07:00:59 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:01:08 hefner: it's probably along the lines of maths vs. biology (: 07:01:28 hefner, is that a title? google didn't give me much on "pyramids versus organisms" 07:01:31 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:02:28 tic: AFAIK it was an expression in some paper 07:03:25 I see. Happen to remember which one? 07:04:15 it's from the forward to SICP 07:04:27 Thanks. 07:04:39 (funny enough, the typesetting is slightly mangled on mit's web copy of sicp) 07:04:42 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:05:24 hefner: that wouldn't have happened at stanford (: 07:05:24 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:05:25 I started watching the movies a while ago, found them a bit slow though. Think one should read the book instead? 07:05:50 tic: yeah, the special effects just came off as tacky 07:05:57 haha 07:06:09 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-76-122-37-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:06:13 antifuchs, meh. :-) 07:06:41 I've only read the book, and that was really good 07:06:47 coolness. 07:06:54 *p_l* needs to get his copy of SICP back from his friend 07:07:02 so would recommend getting that (: 07:07:03 I never got to read it, with him keeping it 07:07:17 and I paid only £1 for it ^_^ 07:07:19 something tells me sicp is expensive. 07:07:30 *hefner* is waiting for the Ron Moore remake 07:07:41 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:08:04 tic: new copy out of amazon is. Used copy in your local charity-oriented college bookstore might be cheap :D 07:08:38 even brand new isn't /that/ expensive, ~60E. 07:08:45 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.158.254] has joined #lisp 07:08:48 (or well, 593 in moon currency) 07:09:17 tic: so you've looked at both languages; what's your impression of their relative practicality and level of expressiveness? 07:09:19 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:22 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-140-88.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:09:36 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:09:53 good mornign 07:09:59 C-t 07:10:52 Ralith, I haven't looked /that/ much at Haskell, not more than you, I guess. What I like about Lisp is the programmability. Code is data is code is pretty cool/useful, even though you can do similar things with Haskell's thunks. 07:11:05 tic: moon currency? In moon currency it's somewhere over 6k 07:11:10 ;-) 07:11:30 that still depends on which moon you want to buy it :) 07:11:31 most of it goes to shipping? 07:11:38 tic: that's one of my primary attractions to lisp, too--but I've heard that template haskell offers something similar. 07:11:45 p_l, my australian friend always says SEK is moon currency. 07:11:55 Ralith, but it can never be as clean. 07:12:00 why not? 07:12:03 tcr, probably. amazon us. 07:12:22 Ralith: Haskell is just plain different to Lisp 07:12:33 but... why can't it be as clean? 07:12:34 Ralith: It's hardly an either-or question 07:12:48 tic: well, I'm an anime fan, and we've got quite solid definition of all moon- terms :P 07:13:01 SICP is freely available on the web, isn't it? 07:13:01 p_l, oh. 07:13:10 yeah, but this is something of a crux. My main attraction to haskell at the moment, after all, is how cleanly it handles partial appication and function composition and such. 07:13:12 tic: prolly started with "moonspeak" ;-) 07:13:20 Zhivago, key here is "web"; I don't have an eInk display. 07:13:28 Ralith: How does it cleanly handle partial application? 07:13:39 You could print it :) 07:13:51 tcr: is that a serious question or a "I'm about to tell you how it doesn't" question? 07:14:38 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 07:15:04 Ralith: It's a serious question, I only know it handles a specific case by having all functions be curried 07:15:32 cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 07:15:41 haskell is quite fast according to the benchmark game, w/ the new tagging from ghc6.something. 07:16:11 the haskell benchmark programs are usually frightening, aren't they? 07:16:23 tic: done thanks to static form of code and some interesting stuff in optimizer related to it. 07:16:25 hello mvilleneuve 07:16:38 tcr: I'm just talking about how nice it is to be able to take a function foo that takes two args and then do things like "bar = foo 1" and then "bar 2" without needing to muck about with specialized currying syntax and such. 07:16:39 I think they now do forced strictness, hefner. 07:17:42 Ralith: But it doesn't work very well if your function has optional arguments. 07:18:03 beach: there isn't really such a thing as an optional argument, as far as I know. 07:18:26 tic: there's strictness operator 07:18:28 Ralith: That's what I mean. If you want automatic currying, you can't have optional arguments. 07:18:33 Ralith: if the deciding factor is just the ability to write certain very cute short definitions, compromise and learn Factor instead. 07:18:35 beach: ahh, good point. 07:19:15 hefner: fair, but it came in handy frequently during my IRC bot project, which I think is reasonable enough demonstration that it's not just a gimmick. 07:19:38 *hefner* loves writing successions of beautiful factor one-liners and using spread/cleave combinators, hates debugging them initially. :) 07:19:39 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:20:00 p_l, yeah, I meant in the benchmarks. 07:20:21 hefner: and now? 07:21:41 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.212.197] has left #lisp 07:21:45 beach: that's actually much more of a selling point than I'd realized, especially with lisp's keyword args. 07:22:31 tcr: sorry, I don't mean "I hated debugging them initially", I mean "I continue to hate debugging them when I (initially) write them", but I haven't written any factor code since last fall. 07:22:46 ah ok 07:23:01 ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:13 tic: I still don't follow why it's impossible for template haskell to be as clean as macros. 07:23:16 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:23:31 unless you're making the case that macros are the as clean as it's possible to get 07:23:46 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 07:24:07 Ralith: I think the "clean" argument was bogus; macros in Common Lisp are not clean at all. They're just very easily accessible 07:24:11 tcr: actually, the nice pretty defintions usually work. it's the big hairy definitions that kill you. anything you'd write with LOOP in CL is absolute murder in factor, and I was trying to write a game and being really fussy about making certain things go fast(er). 07:24:26 Ralith: I think using the word `clean' in programming is a bad idea, because it reflects subjective opinions about constructs. 07:24:36 okay. 07:24:51 easily accessible indeed. 07:25:06 they certainly are refreshingly accessible. 07:25:14 for all their power, I was surprised how intuitive they are. 07:25:39 hefner: Yes, makes sense. 07:25:52 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:27:01 Ralith: Lisp is like oil-painting, beauty comes with mess. Haskell is just rigorously different to that. 07:27:33 hm. 07:27:52 I think I may continue to toy with lisp on the basis of how awesome slime is. 07:28:35 Ralith: I don't know where you picked up all those opinions about programming and programming langauges, but to me, programming is about solving difficult problems using pragmatic tools to obtain compact and maintainable code. It is not about cleanliness, intuition, or anything else. 07:29:24 "Compact" and "maintainable" also lay in the eye of the beholder :) 07:29:35 beach: I dunno about you, but I like having fun programming, and aesthetic principles that don't have much bearing on practicality apply there. 07:30:41 Ralith: Obtaining compact and maintainable code is aethetically pleasing in itself. 07:30:46 indeed it is! 07:31:09 and doing so can be made much easier by intuitive design. 07:31:30 Ralith: Look, there is nothing intuitive about programming. Everything is learned. 07:31:51 programming is a lot about solving simpe problems as well though 07:32:10 suction is intuitive, I think everything else is learned. 07:32:15 some things are learned in two minutes through simple experimentation, and some through a week in a textbook. 07:32:30 and this isn't always related to how complex or powerful the things in question are. 07:32:39 Ralith: People who use "clean" and "intuitive" together with programming and programming languages usually have some kind of agenda. I am always very suspicious when I see such arguments. 07:33:08 tic: Actually, while suction is intuitive, it requires practice :D 07:33:09 beach: rest assured, my goal here is as simple as "have a good time writing code that can do useful things" 07:33:24 Ralith: I wouldn't call Haskell intuitive. We live in a world with side-effects, our brain is adapted to that world. 07:33:35 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:33:37 p_l, heh. :) 07:33:49 Ralith: I am sorry, but the ease with which you learn something depends a lot on your background, i.e. what you already know. Plus, ease of learning is not something to strive for in itself, ease of use is. 07:34:08 Lisp was about making 'non-intuitive' things possible 07:34:22 Ralith: Then have fun and program, and don't worry about intuition and cleanliness. 07:34:24 beach: yeah, which is why I didn't described intuitiveness as a major selling point, or lack thereof as a serious problem. 07:34:38 "misusing the computer" by doing stuff that didn't fit FORTRAN :P 07:34:40 optimize for learning often tends to give you something worse in the long run. (case in point, BASIC) 07:34:43 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-73-30.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 07:34:49 I was just commenting that the ease with which I picked up the basics of macros surprised me. 07:35:06 Ralith: Good for you. 07:35:18 tic: BASIC was more about "user friendliness" I guess. You can optimize for learning and get something awesome, like Logo 07:35:19 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:35:20 tic: I quite agree. I mean, there's a erason I use emacs and no notepad. 07:35:33 er. 07:35:40 reason*, not* 07:36:24 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:37:03 beach: I guess I'm just a bit hesitant to ask something as subjective as "Is lisp more fun?" 07:38:09 milanj [n=milan@93.86.58.24] has joined #lisp 07:38:31 Lisp is more fun! 07:38:38 Ralith: So far, it's the only programming language I know that makes me laugh. 07:38:59 'good-morning 07:39:06 hello trebor_dki 07:39:06 well, that's that cleared up then! 07:39:14 *trebor_dki* seconding "lisp is more fun" 07:39:29 hello beach 07:40:37 I think that one often overlooked issue is the cost of regularity in text. 07:40:55 minion: chant 07:40:56 MORE FUN 07:41:19 minion is written in Lisp! That should tell you something! 07:43:16 an IRC bot! in Lisp! Truly, the language of my dreams. 07:46:42 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:59 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has left #lisp 07:48:07 antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:08 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:48:32 beach: what is it that makes it funny for you? 07:49:41 beach: Have you seen this? http://www.dist-systems.bbn.com/tech/spyglass/ 07:50:12 jdz: It is hard to say. It just happens when I come up with some especially nice solution to a problem. 07:50:41 beach: It would be awesome if that was open sourced and made running on mcclim. 07:51:01 tcr: Oh, nice! 07:51:26 tcr: that looks cool! 07:51:57 beach: Perhaps you can write them a mail and ask about its current status? You've got more credentials than me. 07:53:55 tcr: I suppose I could do that. But I don't know much about networking, so I couldn't be the one doing the port. 07:54:06 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 07:54:28 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:10 -!- saikat__ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [] 07:58:22 tcr: mail sent. 07:59:34 adityo [n=adityo@122.169.52.91] has joined #lisp 08:03:15 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:04:16 asksol_ [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 08:04:21 blitz_ [n=blitz@2002:8d4c:3001:48:216:d3ff:feb0:58e0] has joined #lisp 08:07:35 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 08:08:10 hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 08:09:20 saikat__ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 08:09:40 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:09:42 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:00 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:14:06 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:18:42 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 08:23:06 -!- bobf_ [n=bob@host86-147-205-177.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:27:19 -!- cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:31:11 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:31:20 -!- saikat__ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [] 08:32:38 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["brb"] 08:34:51 reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:35:19 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 08:35:59 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:38:45 bob_f [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 08:39:48 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 08:39:49 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:44:49 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177120047.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:45:04 lispm [n=joswig@e177150108.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:46:30 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:51:20 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 08:56:06 cool 08:56:19 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-73-30.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:01:50 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 09:07:38 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-182.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 09:07:58 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:34 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-4-124.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:14:32 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 09:22:35 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:24:14 frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 09:25:15 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 09:25:34 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 09:27:57 cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 09:32:07 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 09:34:04 anyone here knows something about streamtech? 09:34:29 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:35:33 p_l: IIRC it's a NL company that posted a couple of lisp job offers. 09:35:52 matimago: yeah, I found their internship offer 09:35:53 -!- cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:36:17 p_l: have you browsed their web site? 09:36:35 yup. I was just wondering if anyone here has anything closer 09:36:53 Closer to where? 09:37:25 argh, damn me and my "haven't slept so incomprehensible" writing. 09:38:05 matimago: I meant more information that available on website, like from grapevine etc. (after all, it doesn't look like lisp companies are common, does it) 09:38:27 matimago: Maybe even finding someone who worked with them or in the company itself 09:38:27 m4dnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 09:38:55 p_l: why not call them? 09:39:25 aerique: gonna do that too, today 09:39:31 At least, they seem to have been operating for a few years... 09:39:53 aerique: it's 10:39 and I don't want to interrupt someone's morning coffee :) 09:40:07 It's 11:40 in this zone. 09:40:16 p_l: it's 11:40 here in the Netherlands.. 10:39 is a good time to call as well 09:40:46 p_l: between 12:00 and 13:00 you might be interrupting someone's lunch 09:41:56 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 09:43:05 Let's give this some more google-juice: http://www.pchristensen.com/blog/lisp-companies/ 09:43:09 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:37 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6C192.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:44 splittist: thanks for the link, great list 09:48:02 Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has joined #lisp 09:48:50 dys`` [n=andreas@p5B3150F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:28 grc``` [n=user@217.33.170.226] has joined #lisp 09:49:47 nothing in France, despite the high concentration of french among the most regular users of this channel 09:50:14 if they're hanging out here they're not starting companies! 09:50:35 mostly academic work I get the impression 09:50:43 It could just be that the francoshere in general has a small overlap with the places/terms Peter searched... 09:51:05 *francosphere 09:52:33 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:54:18 streamtech has nice page with example problems to be solved by applicant 09:54:29 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:54:39 -!- dys` [n=andreas@p5B315156.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:55:33 p_l: their company's 5km from where I'm working, so if you need anything thrown in their mailbox... :) 09:56:22 aerique: I probably won't have to, but thanks :) 09:57:47 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:58:59 It has been mentionned that there was some startups near Bordeaux using lisp. 10:02:31 -!- ejs [n=eugen@218-38-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:02:43 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 10:02:54 *p_l* just found that he has some possibility of getting direct contacts with two people at streamtech. Yay for social networks :D 10:02:59 matimago: at least two, now :) 10:03:35 yo luis! 10:03:38 Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:04:05 mvilleneuve: give the names to Peter, so he can update his list ? 10:04:25 luis: Have you patched anything to use hyperdoc? 10:05:13 tcr: is that a rhetorical question? :) 10:05:35 Uhm, no, why do you think so? 10:05:50 -!- Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 10:06:24 sounded like one to me. 10:06:27 I changed its API, and while it's backward-compatible to a high degree, not totally. So I'm looking for whether it has actually seen use. 10:06:36 Ah, I see. 10:06:59 No, I've not used it yet. 10:07:11 Ok, I thought you did it for some ediware 10:08:15 afk 10:09:45 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:18:05 -!- jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has left #lisp 10:18:33 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:32 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:24:40 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 10:30:18 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:54 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:31:55 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 10:33:21 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:34:09 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 10:34:57 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 10:43:17 jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has joined #lisp 10:44:34 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:45:07 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:45:30 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.169.52.91] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:45:38 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 10:47:08 Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 10:51:31 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:52:25 -!- pem is now known as pemryan 10:54:22 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:38 -!- pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has left #lisp 10:56:55 -!- asksol_ [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:58:09 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.58.24] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:59:04 asksol_ [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 11:00:10 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 11:00:16 -!- CrazyEddy [n=adaptati@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:00:18 cracki [n=cracki@47-223.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:02:21 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Client Quit] 11:02:22 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 11:02:46 pemryan [n=pemryan@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 11:03:23 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:03:36 -!- pemryan [n=pemryan@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:07:20 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:07:22 Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 11:07:35 -!- dys`` is now known as dys 11:08:19 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@203.97.49.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:09:19 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:10:17 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:15:17 Faed [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 11:17:07 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:20:39 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:22:07 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:24:33 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-1dd34545d9d0cbad] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:25:28 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:25:39 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:32 frobar [n=ulf@h-88-48.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 11:31:30 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:30 is using return-from to return from a function safe and portable, i.e. (defun foo (return-from foo))? 11:32:41 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:32:47 yes 11:32:53 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:05 only (defun foo () (return-from foo)) 11:33:05 are there any reasons to avoid it? 11:33:17 ah, yeah, sorry 11:33:19 style? 11:34:06 frobar, usually you won't need it 11:34:09 it seems pretty clear in this case though. i guess i could wrap it in a tagbody instead, but meh.. 11:35:06 lispm: yeah, i could do without it, but it saves me some ugly obfuscating conds in this case 11:35:17 (and yeah, i've thought about splitting it up :) 11:35:40 RETURN-FROM is less evil then some of the alternatives 11:35:42 IMHO 11:37:10 which are those? 11:37:26 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-9bd54c95ee81715f] has left #lisp 11:37:30 GO for example 11:38:07 i guess one advantage of GO would be that you can rename the function later without having to change a bunch of return-froms 11:38:09 CATCH and THROW 11:38:20 if it's GO in the tagbody sense (i don't know of any other senses) 11:38:35 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:38:36 frobar: well, you can have another block too 11:38:47 hmm, yeah, didn't think of that 11:39:21 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:40:29 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:42:10 milanj [n=milan@93.86.58.24] has joined #lisp 11:43:29 note also that there are some forms that create an implicit block named NIL, where RETURN works 11:44:54 DO, LOOP, DOTIMES, ... 11:45:13 ok, didn't know that :) 11:45:45 but not function bodies (: 11:46:02 all do* macros 11:46:19 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 11:49:20 PROG and PROG* also 11:49:42 antifuchs, why's that? 11:50:09 named functions have a block named with the function name already 11:50:10 defun establishes implicit block named after the function 11:50:20 Ah, yes. 11:50:25 cl's RETURN is more like C's break than its return 11:51:31 then there is also the condition system for non-local exits 11:51:46 *stassats* didn't know that do* also have an implicit tagbody 11:52:02 and creative uses of the condition system for non-local non-exits (-: 11:52:20 stassats: sure, it's how you can skip an iteration 11:52:38 tcr: now i know 11:52:43 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 11:54:18 *stassats* never needed to do that 11:55:24 -!- jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:55:39 jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has joined #lisp 11:56:27 In former times PROG was used a lot 11:56:40 PROG introduces local variables, similar to LET 11:56:51 allows tags and GO 11:57:00 and allows RETURN from it 11:58:50 It is tagbody that allows go. It is used internally in nearly all looping predicates. So in that sense it is very much still in use. 11:58:51 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:12 looping predicates? 11:59:17 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [] 11:59:37 Now cond is usually a macro that reduces to nested if's. And thus internally needs progn. 11:59:42 stassats: like loo-p (; 11:59:52 splittist: i see... 11:59:57 stassats: I mean dotimes, dolist, loop etc 12:00:26 how come they are predicates? 12:00:30 it's not specified that cond must expand to IF 12:01:39 ye, IF can expand to COND also 12:02:28 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-157.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:02:53 -!- ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:02:54 Uhm, it's not as easy as that. IF is the special operator, COND is the macro. So an implementation must provide a macro-function for COND which expands to IF. 12:02:56 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:06:04 clhs cond 12:06:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_cond.htm 12:07:04 (catch 'exit (dotimes (i 100) (when (= i 50) (throw 'exit 50)))) 12:07:23 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:07:30 tcr: thanks for correction. 12:08:11 i seem to be misremembering or imagining things 12:09:11 jdz: You were not that wrong. Iirc, on symbolics, COND was the primitive operator. 12:09:23 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 12:10:33 -!- frobar [n=ulf@h-88-48.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit ["leaving"] 12:10:54 couloir [n=chatzill@96.49.120.130] has joined #lisp 12:12:41 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:12:56 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:14:25 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:15:02 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:15:17 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:15:33 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:15:45 Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 12:15:46 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:18:07 envi_home2 [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:18:11 couloir_ [n=chatzill@96.49.120.130] has joined #lisp 12:18:19 tcr: however, an implementation could provide COND as a special operator. It's true that it would have to also provide a macro, expanding to CL special operators for the benefit of code walkers. But it could still be a primitive. 12:18:58 well that's true fol all special forms, isn't it? 12:19:08 Drakeson` [n=user@69-196-139-205.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 12:20:17 -!- cracki [n=cracki@47-223.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:20:36 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:20:54 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:20:54 -!- couloir [n=chatzill@96.49.120.130] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:20:54 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:20:54 -!- ASau [n=user@host168-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:20:54 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@76-145.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:20:54 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-251-238.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit 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12:33:52 Dazhbog [n=sampo@geek.fi] has joined #lisp 12:33:52 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:52 -!- irc.freenode.net has set mode +o drewc 12:33:59 jlf [n=user@209.204.171.101] has joined #lisp 12:33:59 -!- couloir [n=chatzill@96.49.120.130] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 12:33:59 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 12:34:00 minion: tell HET2 about asdf 12:34:04 HET2: direct your attention towards asdf: asdf is Another System Definition Facility. http://www.cliki.net/asdf 12:34:11 thanks 12:35:26 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:31 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:35:36 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:36:14 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:47 -!- JohnnyL [i=crashcar@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 12:38:05 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 12:38:30 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:38:35 hello 12:38:46 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:42:12 Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:43:35 jdz: yes, true for any special form. 12:45:52 wroth [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has joined #lisp 12:46:10 cracki [n=cracki@47-223.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:46:53 -!- jlf [n=user@209.204.171.101] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:46:53 -!- enn [n=eli@codeanddata.com] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:46:53 -!- rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:46:53 -!- Bootvis [i=bob@baltar.lan.endoria.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net 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[i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:11 Dazhbog [n=sampo@geek.fi] has joined #lisp 12:47:11 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:11 -!- irc.freenode.net has set mode +o drewc 12:48:14 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:49:19 elias` [n=me@host217-42-207-213.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:50:29 -!- ASau [n=user@host168-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:50:29 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@76-145.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:50:41 dlowe: thanks, seems quite elegant 12:51:02 HET2: it has it's strong and weak points :) 12:51:08 er, its 12:51:14 *dlowe* reaches for the coffee. 12:51:39 HET2: for large projects you end up in serious manual dependency hell 12:51:49 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@2002:8d4c:3001:48:216:d3ff:feb0:58e0] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:51:58 The-Kenny 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has joined #lisp 13:36:49 what's the smartest way to replace equal and subsequent elements in a list with only one occurance of the element 13:37:48 free_thinker [n=willijar@134.151.144.246] has joined #lisp 13:38:28 clhs substitute 13:38:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sbs_s.htm 13:38:43 (subseq sequence 0 (position element sequence :test #'equal)) ? 13:38:53 dlowe: is there some palce where i can read up on useful list related functions? 13:39:15 HET2: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/14_.htm 13:39:29 ah 13:39:30 thanks 13:39:31 HET2: and this http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/17_.htm 13:39:38 i was looking for a "lists" chapter 13:40:32 clhs 17 13:40:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/17_.htm 13:40:36 spiff. 13:41:30 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:19 LiamH: ping 13:42:33 ASau [n=user@host168-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 13:42:37 fe[nl]ix: hi 13:44:25 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:43 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:15 how can I read from a sb-sys:fd-stream ? 13:47:47 clhs read-line 13:47:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_lin.htm 13:48:09 doesn't work 13:48:27 oh nvm 13:48:39 maybe it's not an input stream? 13:48:55 fe[nl]ix pasted "CFFI-grovel doubles" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81533 13:48:57 yes, tiny little mistake and me being too lazy to check error message 13:49:06 HET2, for example SUBSTITUTE the first one (using :COUNT) and the REMOVE the rest 13:49:09 fe[nl]ix annotated #81533 "test" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81533#1 13:49:21 LiamH: please try that patch 13:49:47 -!- couloir_ is now known as couloir 13:50:13 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 13:50:54 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 13:52:02 anyone aware of neat image or signal processing work done in lisp? i'd be interested to see examples 13:53:34 minion: tell couloir about ch-image 13:53:35 couloir: look at ch-image: ch-image is a lisp package for dealing with images, including image I/O, some simple drawing primitives, text rendering via FFI to freetype, and image manipulation such as discrete convolution and affine transformation. http://www.cliki.net/ch-image 13:53:46 http://www.ai.sri.com/~connolly/freedius/basics.html 13:53:46 -!- free_thinker [n=willijar@134.151.144.246] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:54:01 Don't know if it counts as "neat". 13:54:15 minion, fantastic, thank you 13:54:16 you speak nonsense 13:54:27 hahaha 13:54:52 lispm, thanks as well 13:55:03 http://www.lispworks.com/success-stories/raytheon-siglab.html 13:55:15 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-150-160.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:55:37 willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 13:56:06 if it's good enough to simulate an exo-atmospheric kill vehicle, it's good enough for me 13:56:15 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit ["Quitting"] 13:56:30 oh yeah, that was demoed at ECLM in Hamburg, wasn't it 13:56:45 if that is your application domain?!? 13:56:50 yes 13:57:16 the developer used it to tune his hearing aid so he can enjoy music again or something? it was pretty awesome 13:58:04 he was also giving access to the source 13:58:10 wow 13:58:12 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 14:01:03 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:01:39 -!- cracki [n=cracki@47-223.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 14:01:47 fe[nl]ix: works perfectly, thanks. Will this patch be added to the darcs repo? 14:02:18 in 15 minutes. I need to tweak it a little 14:03:23 no rush, just wanted to know what to tell the GSLL users when include these constants. 14:04:10 why can i not do (with-open-file (stream "/etc/passwd") (print "foo" stream)) 14:04:23 *LiamH* finds out that +mksa-nuclear-magneton+ is 5.050783d-27 14:04:25 LiamH: is %.20e enough ? 14:04:37 HET2: you need to specify :direction :output 14:05:00 and :if-exists :append, for example 14:05:07 fe[nl]ix: for my purposes, absolutely. I would think for any purpose as well. 14:05:50 fe[nl]ix: I believe %.18 is supposed to be enough to reconstruct an IEEE double mantissa. 14:06:04 excellent 14:07:21 thanks, i had my parens wrong 14:07:28 fe[nl]ix: what you had seems to have truncated some digits, #define GSL_CONST_MKSA_NUCLEAR_MAGNETON (5.05078317e-27) /* A m^2 */ 14:07:59 LiamH: yes. %e defaults to 6 digits of precision 14:08:21 OK, I didn't know that. 14:09:15 Although if you want to support nans correctly, it might be better to print the float's components and reconstruct it from them? 14:09:18 %a 14:10:43 ...Especially with signaling VS quiet nans, nevermind applications putting data in the mantissa. 14:10:47 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 14:11:12 couloir: What is it that you are working on? 14:11:56 tcr: dying on there being both :test and :test-not in a call is actually not a bug per se ;) 14:11:59 I can convert a raw word into a double-float if C can print it out (hex or whatever) 14:13:20 I think that %.20E will suffice for the moment. smarter things can be done later 14:13:26 pkhuong: Of course not, but the error message is ugly :P 14:15:00 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:15:37 C99 specifies %a for printing doubles losslessly 14:15:59 kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 14:16:38 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:17:18 Xof: good call 14:17:50 described in http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/printf.html 14:19:16 I'm not sure it's necessary here, but it might be nice to have the option. 14:21:28 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:10 ok, %a 14:22:43 I'm not sure how to grovel a NaN. printf will print it as "NAN", which reads as a symbol 14:22:58 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:23:01 morning 14:23:07 hi slyrus 14:23:13 hello slyrus 14:23:17 there's always fpclassify. 14:23:37 slyrus: Why did you put the copyright you did? 14:24:02 umm... I thought I just copied the one from the jpeg/gif files. 14:24:17 slyrus: but they are not the authors. 14:25:21 d'oh! 14:25:57 the one in the asd file is correct, right? 14:26:00 fe[nl]ix: yes, it seems that it won't print the hex of a nan, so maybe that isn't so good. 14:26:25 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:27:49 slyrus: yes. 14:28:28 revised patch sent. 14:28:34 kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.fr] has joined #lisp 14:28:39 slyrus: Thanks. 14:29:23 lol, %a can't be used because it prints double in hex: 0X1.1DE784AP+28 14:31:28 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 14:31:45 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483EDD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:45 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 14:32:55 -!- marcoecc is now known as marcoe 14:33:01 -!- splittist` [n=dmurray@76-145.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:33:29 -!- marcoe is now known as marcoecc_ 14:34:00 jlf [n=user@209.204.171.101] has joined #lisp 14:34:02 -!- couloir [n=chatzill@96.49.120.130] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:34:10 jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 14:34:40 nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:51 G'morning all. 14:35:36 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 14:36:15 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:36:27 jmbr [n=jmbr@14.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:37:13 -!- marcoecc_ [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit ["Quitting"] 14:38:07 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 14:38:49 cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 14:40:29 hello nyef 14:40:34 slyrus: committed. Thanks! 14:40:53 is there a default find function for n-ary trees? 14:41:17 PissedNumlock: No, because there is no standard representation for such trees. 14:43:31 LiamH: done 14:43:34 Athas: How about fixing that bug that Nikodemus reported! I think it is in your display code. 14:44:21 Oh noooo, I have to finish my undergraduate project! 14:44:32 bzwahr [n=user@bloc-bzwahr-lap.tamu.edu] has joined #lisp 14:44:40 Which bug? 14:44:41 OK, once you finished the undergraduate project. 14:44:55 Athas: Hold on... 14:45:33 Athas: You don't get mail on climacs-devel? 14:45:38 if I have a alist where the CAR is the name of a variable and the CDR is a new value, how can I set the new value? (setq (car param) (cdr param)) doesn't work because (car param) is not a symbol 14:45:48 when you deal with macros, is it preferable to quote the arguments or do you pass them unquoted? 14:45:50 Oh, the one about indentation? 14:45:57 bzwahr: use setf, not setq. 14:46:02 Athas: He reported two bugs, its the second one. 14:46:23 ie, (with-foo '((a b c) (d e f)) ...) vs (with-foo ((a b c) (d e f)) ...) 14:46:34 Athas: awesome. exactly what I was looking for. 14:47:19 -!- animalmachine [n=timothy@ip68-101-217-50.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:47:32 hypno: they already aren't evaluated 14:47:37 McCLIM is still compiling, what's the stack trace? 14:48:37 Athas: Both bugs manifested themselves as a result of doing a M-q. I fixed the first one. It was due to the fact that no undo information was pushed as a result of modifying a buffer object (as opposed to inserting or deleting). 14:48:52 Athas: Let's see if I can reconstruct the stack trace... 14:49:30 stassats: i'm sorry, i do not quite understand what you are saying. the arguments will just be stupid numbers calling a function many times over. 14:50:02 I don't get a traceback... 14:50:07 wait, maybe not. that seems to want to set the CAR of param. in my case, the CAR of param is the name of a symbol, and I want to set the value of that symbol. so: (defvar *some-var*), then param is an alist with (*some-var* . "some new value"), and I basically want to be able to (setq *some-var* "some new value") but using the alist, like (setq (car param) (cdr param)) 14:51:07 I want (car param) to return the symbol name to setq I guess 14:51:23 bzwahr: oh, you can do that with plain SET or with (SETF (SYMBOL-VALUE ...)). 14:52:50 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@24.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:53:12 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@14.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:53:23 beach pasted "stacktrace for Athas" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81539 14:53:41 jdz [n=jdz@87.110.12.247] has joined #lisp 14:53:54 beach: thank you 14:53:57 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 14:54:12 hypno: quote prevents evaluation, with macros you also can control evaluation, so you don't need quote for forms which won't be evaluated by your macros 14:54:31 slyrus: No problem. On the contrary. It is nice to see some McCLIM activity. 14:55:26 -!- frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has left #lisp 14:55:27 phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 14:55:29 danlei [n=user@pD9E2F117.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:30 frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 14:56:30 frozsyn: do I know you? 14:57:06 beach: I don't know... 14:57:16 stassats: ok, thanks. 14:57:28 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:46 frozsyn: What brings you to #lisp? 14:59:17 I don't think this happened prior to your recent changes, beach. 14:59:22 It worked before I CVS updated McCLIM. 14:59:49 Athas: What recent changes? 15:00:10 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-173-76-163-72.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:00:12 Athas: The only recent change I made was as a result of Nikodemus' report. 15:00:17 That would be everything in the last 3-4 months. 15:00:18 Weird. 15:00:19 beach: I try to know more about Common Lisp 15:00:42 Athas: Let me see if I have done anything else lately... 15:00:45 md1 [n=user@195.146.143.131] has joined #lisp 15:00:49 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-140-88.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:01:05 Who messed with the fonts? It's very disconcerting to read code in a variable-width font. 15:01:21 Is there a recommended reading about Common Lisp type declaration and optimization ? 15:01:54 it's very implementation dependant 15:02:01 frozsyn: It's very implementation-specific. What exactly are you looking for? 15:02:15 dat [n=dthomp@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:37 Athas: I don't get variable fonts in Climacs for Lisp code! 15:03:19 Parenmatching makes it all very jumpy. 15:03:59 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:04:57 tcr: I'm looking for nothing particularly for the moment. I use SBCL and the user manual is not quite explicite 15:05:13 -!- Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:05:50 frozsyn: if you increase speed optimization in sbcl, it will give you a lot of hints 15:06:00 (declaim (optimize speed)) 15:06:03 frozsyn: On SBCL, with Slime, I insert (declare (optimize (speed 3))) into the function I want to optimize, than look at all the notes, and change my code accordingly. 15:06:22 Man, it's been too long since I looked at this stuff. 15:06:23 frozsyn: I do a change, recompile, then look at the disassembly 15:06:24 -!- ASau [n=user@host168-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 15:07:02 At least redisplay bugs don't irrecoverably crash Climacs anymore. 15:07:16 Athas: hefner changed the mcclim default font, I think 15:07:28 What the hell: Unhandled memory fault at #x7FCFAADD1F50. 15:07:49 That's one ex-SBCL. 15:08:24 tcr: yep, but I don't understand every notes. I also use Slime btw. For example, the following thread has no real answer to the problem of typing the array, and I don't succeed to find the answer by myself: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/534cdcb5f7af91a0/e732c836fe13bc98?#e732c836fe13bc98 15:09:45 CrazyEddy [n=adaptati@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 15:10:09 frozsyn: Sure it has answers. Is the OP you? 15:10:25 hjpark [n=user@116.40.135.22] has joined #lisp 15:10:27 frozsyn: Or do you have a different function? 15:10:40 tcr: No, i just found the thread was a good exercice 15:10:50 Corun [n=Corun@94-194-27-43.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:11:01 minion: paste 15:11:20 lisppaste: url 15:11:20 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 15:11:20 paste: lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations 15:11:40 frozsyn: Paste your function there, and try to provide some context. 15:12:05 tcr: the following function give my a note about an unknow array rank: (defun test (N) (declare (optimize (speed 3))) (aref (the (simple-array fixnum 10) N) 1)) 15:12:33 (simple-array fixnum (10)) would be better 15:12:43 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:14:18 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 15:14:23 stassats: It works, thank you 15:14:33 clhs simple-array 15:14:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_smp_ar.htm 15:16:20 frozsyn: Use (declare (type (simple-array fixnum (10)) N)) rather than THE 15:16:29 stassats, I've read the doc, but get confused between things I've tried and those that I have not 15:16:45 -!- dalton is now known as allznt 15:16:47 stassats, the original function is bigger 15:16:59 Xof: I recall seeing that, but I still get a fixed font. I wonder why. 15:17:52 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@93.144.76.212] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:18:36 tcr, stassats: ok, know lets say I want to multiply the result by 2... adding just (* (aref ....) 2) give me a note: doing signed word to integer coercion (cost 20) to "" 15:18:37 Athas: As I thought, I haven't done anything at all prior to the report by Nikodemus, and what I did was back in February, and it was minor stuff, like add a patch from hefner to get a :text-style keyword argument to the main entry point of Climacs. 15:20:49 frozsyn: When you ask for a high value of optimization for speed, SBCL will indicate all kinds of situations that it is unable to optimize. 15:21:26 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:27 I cannot see what is wrong, probably some code that is too conservative in invalidating strokes. 15:21:28 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 15:22:01 frozsyn: In this case, I am guessing that when you multiply a fixnum by 2, it has to test whether it is still a fixnum, and if not allocate memory to store a bignum. 15:22:45 beach: is there a way to tell the compiler to optimise the case you just described? 15:23:07 madnificent: I don't know enough about it. But what would you want it to do? 15:23:25 madnificent: SBCL will do register-width integer arithmetic if you use LDB to restrict the result to a sub-register size 15:23:46 beach: say you want to say the compiler that a number is guaranteed to be smaller than a certain number 15:24:06 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:24:14 madnificent: use THE I suppose. 15:24:14 antifuchs: and how would you go around doing that? 15:24:21 might even do it for (min some-limit (* foo 2)) 15:24:23 and also arrays can contain some unboxed values, but to pass those values around you need to box them 15:24:24 well 15:24:25 clhs ldb 15:24:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ldb.htm 15:24:40 -!- envi_home2 [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:24:49 (ldb (byte 32 0) (* 2 foo)) 15:25:11 see the sb-md5 contrib for details 15:25:28 interesting :) 15:25:52 see Xof's paper about modular arithmetic 15:25:58 Of course, if you merely mask down to register width and the value still gets returned or stored in the heap it will still need boxing. Having it masked down to where it is guaranteed to fit in a fixnum will eliminate the bignum consing in that case. 15:26:29 or inlining 15:26:44 Right, but you still have the optimization note in the out-of-line version. 15:27:07 (As I discovered with nevermore. There are a few places where that happens.) 15:27:10 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:27:18 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-123.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:29:54 since there is no "sbcl optimization guide", you need to acquire all that knowledge with experience 15:31:00 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:13 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:35 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:09 HG` [n=wells@xdslhj021.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:37:15 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.58.24] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:39:25 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087EBEE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:35 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 15:40:56 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087EBEE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:41:05 hmmm.. is there a channel for OCR/document recognition stuff somewhere? #ocr doesn't exist.. ;) 15:41:25 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:41:58 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087EBEE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:59 instead of using ldb, using (the (values fixnum &optional) (* 2 (aref ...))) works fine 15:42:01 thijso: Don't know, but if you are planning to write some in Lisp, let me know. I have some ideas and I can probably find some code as well. 15:43:10 just (the fixnum ...) 15:43:44 frozsyn: For some use-cases, yes. But you can more easily lie to the compiler using THE than by using LDB (or LOGAND), and lying to the compiler is bad, as the compiler will tend to take revenge later on. 15:44:09 especially with safety 0 15:44:25 there was a lightning talk, i think, on how mit scheme does continuations on clr. does anyone have link for that? i can't quite google it up 15:44:53 if a variable contains another variables name as a string, how can I use that set set the second variable? example: (setq var1 "var2") then (setq "new value for var2") 15:45:47 bzwahr: You can't in general because variable names are symbols and many symbols can have the same name, depending on their packages. 15:45:48 -!- wroth [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has quit [] 15:45:55 nyef, stassats: ok for (the fixnum) I misinterpreted an SBCL issue. For the lying, ok, but is there a way to specify an ldb that is not processor-dependent ? 15:46:03 -!- allznt is now known as dalton 15:46:07 (set (find-symbol var1 :package) 10) 15:46:10 bzwahr: But if you want to do something like that, you are very likely doing something very wrong. 15:46:50 demanotto [n=daisuke@KD210230163150.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:46:57 -!- demanotto [n=daisuke@KD210230163150.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 15:47:03 beach: right... will do 15:47:11 frozsyn: (logand most-positive-fixnum x) ; doesn't work for negative numbers, though 15:47:12 nikodemus, memo from antifuchs: http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/sbcl-page.git 15:47:29 antifuchs: thanks! 15:48:05 manic12_ [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:18 beach: ok. well, its setting some web application parameters dynamically via a web form. I even tried building a setq statement like (let ((eval-string (concatenate 'string "(setq " posted-parameter-name " \"" posted-parameter-value "\")"))) (eval eval-string)) but that's setting a different variable with the same name it appears 15:48:42 uh-oh, wrong-wrong, don't do this 15:48:51 bzwahr: would you accept that var1 contains symbol 'var2 instead of name "var2" ? This way, it would works. 15:48:56 bzwahr: What's wrong with using a hash table instead? 15:49:03 beach: I was actually looking at using ocropus (currently google), but it only has lua or plain c api's... 15:49:13 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:49:16 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-32-123.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:22 and the docs on ocropus aren't really very good 15:49:26 nikodemus and all: ok thanks, I will practice from those information 15:49:42 bzwahr: sorry. I was answering to you first message. 15:49:46 thijso: I find most open-source OCR software quite bad. At least this was the case in the past. 15:50:05 kuwabara: you can easily obtain 'var2 from "var2" 15:50:12 thijso: What is your use case? 15:50:20 stassats: no, you don't know the package 15:50:26 but evaluating input from a web page is a bad thing 15:50:55 beach: heh... I want to be able to scan all my paperwork at home into searchable PDF (or whatever)... that's part 1 15:51:11 kuwabara: well, the one where you want to find it 15:51:41 thijso: I find there are several cases possible, at least: 1. Automatic OCR, possibly slow, but no human intervention, very low error rate; 2. Low volume (1 page), human intervention possible, error rate doesn't matter. 15:51:46 funny, the spirit seems to be: "if you want the assembly restrictions, program it!" 15:52:02 but I also want to have an auto-tagging system, so that I can just chuck everything in my scanner and have the system recognize *what* each scan is and add tags accordingly... 15:52:09 kuwabara: tha'ts ok, and the cl-who function post-parameters* returns an alist of (post-paramter-name . post-parameter-value). that's what I have to work with, so I'm trying to (dolist (param (post-parameters*)) (setq (car param) (cdr param)) but its not working. I've tried using set, setf, etc. just can't seem to get the value to set. 15:52:28 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-209-133.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 15:52:40 also important: the car and cdr are both strings 15:52:44 thijso: very ambitious, but a nice idea. 15:52:55 bzwahr: either filter your input, or don't do this 15:52:59 which is why (car param) gives me *var1* as a string 15:53:04 frozsyn: Yeah, but it makes sense, doesn't it? :) 15:53:10 stassats: Well, I was following beach's "You can't in general because variable names are symbols and many symbols can have the same name, depending on their packages.", trying to find a solution anyway. Indeed, saying that you already know the package solves it, too. 15:53:19 stassats: what do you mean filter my input? hwo does that have any bearing on this? 15:53:24 yeah... I've more or less decided to go with ABBY for the searchable PDF's (was included with the scanner and works very well actually) 15:53:47 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:53:53 bzwahr: you are receiving arbitrary input, and it can be malicious 15:54:04 but then I want the system to recognize what each scan is... I'm actually thinking about using a reverse-spam-recognition system based on bayes for that... 15:54:26 so instead of using it to recognize spam I use it to tag it with the correct tags... 15:54:28 thijso: cool idea 15:54:52 and then off course I want to do it with lisp.. for as much parts as possible... 15:54:59 s/off/of/ 15:55:01 stassats: 1.) this is on my local machine for testing/learnign purposes only. 2.) if I were to ever put this live, I would hide and password protect the crap out of this page, 3.) this is more a personal proof of concept (and ability) to create a dynamic administration page for a web application written in LISP 15:55:12 thijso: But then, do you need tags if you have it searchable (which can be made fast by indexing)? 15:55:38 stassats: I fully understand the security implications, and they are besides the point at this time 15:55:42 tcr: yeah... was thinking that myself too... possibly not, if the searching system if good enough... 15:56:22 neil127 [n=neil127@85.119.199.1] has joined #lisp 15:56:24 hi 15:56:29 hello neil127 15:56:51 tcr: yep it does, everything is "mathematically" explicit :) 15:56:59 neil127: New here? Or just a new nick? 15:57:29 does make-symbol always return a new symbol, or if you have a symbol for "var1" then call make-symbol "var1" will it return the one that already exists? 15:57:43 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:57:56 bzwahr: (setf (symbol-value (intern "MYVAR")) 42) 15:57:56 bzwahr: So tell me again why you are not just using a hash table? 15:58:11 beach: new here, wanna learn lisp :) 15:58:15 bzwahr: using eval is bad even for a proof-of-concept 15:58:19 neil127: welcome! 15:58:33 kuwabara: I think I've tried that, but I'll try again. 15:58:56 bzwahr: beware the case 15:58:58 stassats: I've gotten rid of teh eval as soon as it didn't work. that was sort of a worst-case-scenario attempt that failed 16:00:05 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Going home."] 16:00:08 beach: how would a hash table help me in terms of using a variable returned in a string? the post-paramters* function (part of cl-who) returns posted variables in the form (name . value), both as strings. 16:00:46 bzwahr: Why is it necessary to map them to Common Lisp variables? Can't you just store the variable-value relation as a hash table? 16:01:04 that's an alist, you can even use it as is 16:01:23 bzwahr: What you are about to do (interning symbols and such) is just a very awkward interface to a particular case of a hash table, namely a package. 16:01:30 kuwabara: still doesn't work. this seems to be a scope issue, methinks. 16:02:21 -!- dat [n=dthomp@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:02:31 here is a rule of thumb: never use intern without specifying a package 16:02:46 -!- phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 16:03:12 tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:03:25 abhi` [n=user@59.92.160.241] has joined #lisp 16:03:52 beach: well, I like being able to defparameter with some default values and set a docstring for each application parameter. can you give each relation in a hash table its own docstring? I wouldn't think so 16:04:15 bzwahr: are the names all uppercase, and the package unique, and the variables special ? 16:04:22 kuwabara: yeah 16:04:37 bzwahr: right, you would have to make that part of the hash-table entry, like a structure or a class instance, or a parallel hash table. 16:04:41 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:05:28 beach: speaking of things breaking, filename completion seems broken since I reloaded mcclim 16:05:32 not sure why 16:05:39 well, reloaded everything... 16:05:44 and rebuilt sbcl 16:06:12 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.85.187] has joined #lisp 16:06:15 pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has joined #lisp 16:06:22 sbcl's directory was changed recently, maybe that's why? 16:06:23 i'm sure this will never make the repo, but i rigged up image loading via ch-image. would be pretty trivial to use that for the image transformation in the drawing stuff, which would be a nice POC. 16:06:34 stassats: ah, good point 16:06:37 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:48 slyrus: Works in Gsharp. 16:08:07 we need a non-automated (unfortunately) standard mcclim user interaction test specification that folks could walk through to convince themselves that mcclim actually works. every time I try it it seems that different things are subtly broken. 16:09:12 An automated one would be even better. 16:11:08 filename completion seems to be working for me with everything latest 16:11:21 well, fsvo "working" 16:11:53 dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 16:12:24 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-26-215.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 16:13:09 beeps like a beeping idiot here under most (but not all) circumstances 16:13:31 for one of the six directories on the path, it gets it right. weird. 16:14:04 well, time to go to work. enough clim hacking for the morning. 16:14:20 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:14:39 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-1ead3ce1dad7bf00] has joined #lisp 16:14:41 sgs [n=sgs@e179144042.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:20:49 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:21:13 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:22:18 finarfin [n=finarfin@fw.resman.pl] has joined #lisp 16:24:08 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:26:06 -!- jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has left #lisp 16:26:26 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@charanda.shochu.sandino.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:08 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 16:29:10 hello 16:29:23 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 16:29:39 dav192 [n=dav@69.pool85-53-37.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 16:29:59 HI 16:30:20 jthing [n=jthing@254.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:30:35 i have a stupid question about floating point numbers :) 16:31:11 as4k i 16:31:12 a 16:31:16 damn 16:31:20 finarfin: ask it 16:31:28 SBCL question: Is there something to get at the type of a generic-function, of a method? I.e. the pendant to sb-kernrel:%simple-fun-type. I can go over generic-function-name for generic functions, but perhaps there's something else, and also to get at a method's type 16:31:42 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:31:52 is it possible to change default floating point numbers type in sbcl? 16:32:19 i mean (format t "~f" 23423432432.32432434) 16:32:26 prints double float 16:32:30 insetead of single float 16:32:37 clhs *read-default-float-format* 16:32:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_rd_def.htm 16:33:38 8-) 16:33:39 thx! 16:33:45 -!- asksol_ [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:34:14 but it's only for reading floats, some operations are still using double floats 16:34:44 -!- sgs [n=sgs@e179144042.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 16:34:46 hm, i've read that common lisp treats numberas as "real" 16:34:56 as large as they are 16:35:00 finarfin: where did you read that? 16:35:19 hmm 16:35:27 there are real and complex types 16:35:27 probably err...in practical common lisp ? 16:35:29 <_3b> integers and rational numbers can be arbitrarily large 16:35:29 tcr: method-function, %method-function-fast-function and then simple-fun-type (the first two arguments are PCL noise) 16:35:48 <_3b> floating point numbers usually use the same FP hardware as other languages, and have the same limitations 16:36:15 reals are uncountable. Even if you want to extract "just enough" digits, that's usually provided by fairly complex libraries. 16:36:54 caddar [n=adam@c-76-123-153-35.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:57 _3b: integers are rational 16:37:03 seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 16:37:34 yeah i see now 16:37:48 but why then there is no parse-float in sbcl for instance? :) 16:38:12 huh? 16:38:27 minion: parse-number? 16:38:27 parse-number: parse-number is a Library of functions which accept an arbitrary string and attempt to parse it into one of the standard Common Lisp number types, if possible, or else it signals an error of type invalid-number. http://www.cliki.net/parse-number 16:38:39 library? 16:39:08 great :d 16:39:10 common lisp standard doesn't specify any parse-float 16:39:23 right 16:39:42 though you can (read-from-string "2.71822") 16:39:49 -!- frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:40:19 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:47 -!- dalton is now known as Jerusalem 16:40:55 -!- Jerusalem is now known as dalton 16:42:24 thanks for help :) 16:42:25 Morbid curiousity (as one who uses read-from-string ALL the time for parsing things). Is something like parse-number going to be significantly more effecient? 16:42:46 well, test it 16:43:15 Well, test #1 was to see if someone else had done the test :P 16:43:46 read-from-string reads not only numbers, so parse-number could be potentially faster 16:43:47 herbieB: more safety and better error detection are reason enough for me. I doubt it's the number parsing that makes IO slow. 16:44:42 -!- amnesiac is now known as pr3d4t0r 16:45:24 -!- pr3d4t0r is now known as amnesiac 16:45:45 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 16:48:03 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 16:48:10 with my simple test, parse-number is faster 16:49:16 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 16:49:39 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-4bf7c331f1f6cbf1] has joined #lisp 16:50:01 -!- anfairch [n=user@c-24-16-32-126.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:50:08 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 16:50:18 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:56 -!- tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:53:37 Pavitra [n=benjamin@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:08 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:55:10 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:28 -!- dav192 [n=dav@69.pool85-53-37.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:55:40 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB"] 16:56:17 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:58:11 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:59:41 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 17:01:22 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 17:04:47 -!- neil127 [n=neil127@85.119.199.1] has quit [] 17:11:12 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-1ead3ce1dad7bf00] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:11:37 -!- abhi` [n=user@59.92.160.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:11:55 asksol [n=ask@73.217.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:14:03 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:14:24 -!- mega1 [n=mega@53d82961.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:16:11 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:16:11 is there some elegant idiom to manage multiple database connections in lisp (cl-sql)? 17:16:26 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:17 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@62-47-133-157.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:23:31 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:23:38 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 17:26:09 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:28:31 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [] 17:28:34 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-9-170.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:30:41 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:33:55 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-150-160.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:34:10 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 17:36:08 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:36:31 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:40:43 milanj [n=milan@77.46.202.129] has joined #lisp 17:41:42 seejay_ [n=seejay@202.69.200.5] has joined #lisp 17:41:50 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:43:05 -!- seejay_ [n=seejay@202.69.200.5] has quit [Client Quit] 17:43:30 drewc [n=user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:13 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:59 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:46:24 -!- jmbr_ is now known as jmbr 17:51:29 -!- drforr [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:52:54 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:26 fvw [n=sdfpme@119.128.75.219] has joined #lisp 17:53:53 ausente_tmp [n=ebsjux@189-19-118-199.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:54:40 milanj- [n=milan@77.46.250.165] has joined #lisp 17:55:25 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:09 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.202.129] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:56:16 -!- milanj- is now known as milanj 17:56:36 hexa [n=hexa@69.90.176.100] has joined #lisp 17:57:36 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 18:00:12 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:23 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:03:04 -!- dalton [n=ebsjux@187.35.194.80] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:03:15 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 18:04:15 couloir [n=chatzill@96.49.120.130] has joined #lisp 18:05:05 -!- ssf [n=sf@66-17-110-245-swiftelNET.brookings.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:05:32 pkhuong: sb-kernel:%simple-fun-type seems to return the function name on generic functions 18:05:50 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:06:06 pkhuong: Oh I misunderstood you 18:06:17 Hunh. The McCLIM listener seems to be ludicrously easy to crash. 18:06:50 -!- ausente_tmp is now known as dalton 18:07:19 nyef: yeah, it is rather brittle 18:07:28 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:07:50 As in, throw an unbound symbol name at it and it scrolls a pile of error junk and then disappears. 18:09:36 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181145063.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:09:37 Sound like it need's a *debug-handler*.. 18:10:23 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@119.128.75.219] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:10:28 -!- Faed is now known as Fade 18:10:29 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has quit [] 18:10:33 -!- dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:10:50 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 18:11:44 Umm... How do I start a listener window from climacs? 18:11:55 Or even just eval something? 18:12:05 (Ah, M-: does something. Nevermind.) 18:13:58 nyef: Recently we were discussing the possibility of having a global set of commands that all applications would support, like starting a listener, starting Climacs, etc. 18:14:12 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-1-238.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:50 climacs feels... unpolished. 18:15:09 beach: is there an ESA-global command table? that is something that is available to all ESA apps, but not to all clim apps? 18:15:18 nyef: Is this the first time you try it? 18:15:29 It's the first time in probably more than a year. 18:15:44 It's a -lot- better than it was when last I tried it. 18:16:07 slyrus_: I think there are several, sort of like mixins where you get I/O, macros, quit, etc. 18:16:23 nyef: I don't think it needs that much polish to be quite usable. 18:17:25 It feels somewhat usable now, just... not quite, you know? 18:17:29 beach: I think it still needs a lot of polish, but that a lot of that polish isn't climacs specific. it's mcclim polish and the interaction with the missing functionality to make a useful editing/debugging environment 18:17:41 nyef: I agree. it's usable for _editing_, but not for much else 18:17:44 nyef: Yes, I think I know exactly what you mean. 18:17:52 also, perhaps they're there, but I miss the paredit-y features 18:18:11 slyrus_: Indeed, quite a few of the problems are with McCLIM. 18:18:15 I was very impressed that I was able to C-c C-k a source file, for example. 18:18:25 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 18:18:31 How do I turn on emacs-style line-wrapping? 18:18:57 I forget 18:19:21 Why are there two "Describe Bindings" entries in the Help menu? 18:20:20 ... It just crashed. 18:20:39 paw [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:21:07 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0EE6.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:21:08 Did an M-x revert, and it died with "The function CLIMACS-COMMANDS::ERASE-BUFFER is undefined." 18:23:04 sounds bad. 18:23:04 A hard crash like that is clearly non-optimal, too. 18:23:33 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:23:38 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 18:24:00 nyef: yeah, it doesn't take much real work to trigger a catastrophic failure, IME 18:25:23 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslhj021.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:25:30 *tcr* keeps on finding bugs :) 18:26:03 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 18:26:25 couloir_ [n=chatzill@96.49.120.130] has joined #lisp 18:26:49 You are being too negative! 18:26:54 Non-catastrophic failure, fine, we can keep going. But it doesn't take too many catastrophic failures before it's just not usable. 18:26:56 Consider it low-hanging fruit to work on! 18:27:17 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-23-175.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:27:40 *beach* is with Athas on this one. 18:27:46 -!- couloir [n=chatzill@96.49.120.130] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:27:47 *nyef* considers it junk that's in the way between him and the low-hanging fruit he -wants- to work on. 18:27:48 -!- drewc [n=user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Killed by sagan.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 18:27:50 -!- paw [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Killed by sagan.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 18:27:52 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 18:27:52 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:27:52 Samy [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:52 enn [n=eli@codeanddata.com] has joined #lisp 18:27:52 anekos [n=anekos@pl410.nas925.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:27:52 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:52 Bootvis [i=bob@baltar.lan.endoria.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:52 kidd [n=kidd@82.Red-79-150-114.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:52 Dazhbog [n=sampo@geek.fi] has joined #lisp 18:27:52 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:52 -!- irc.freenode.net has set mode +o drewc 18:27:52 -!- couloir_ is now known as couloir 18:28:18 benny` [n=benny@i577A1AFA.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:28:36 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 18:29:31 how do i say in lisp "if the result of this function is not nil, then call this other function passing the result of the first function as an argument. otherwise do nothing" 18:29:36 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:13 i am sure there's a more elegant way than nested lets 18:30:21 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:30:28 (let ((result (foo x y))) (when result (bar result)) 18:31:04 you can anaphoric macros but then folks like me will steadfastly avoid your code 18:31:06 tcr: isn't there a less verbose way 18:31:19 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:31:22 Anything else ends up being an anaphoric macro, and anaphoric macros are icky. 18:31:33 what's an anaphoric macro then 18:31:33 HET2: Alexandria comes with WHEN-LET, so you can write (when-let (result (foo x y)) (bar result)) 18:31:45 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:50 tcr: alexandria being a lisp implementation? 18:31:56 minion: alexandria 18:31:57 alexandria: Alexandria is a collection of portable public domain utilities. http://www.cliki.net/alexandria 18:33:00 tcr: would you use alexandria in production code? (i'm not implying that i am writing production code ;) 18:33:29 blitz_ [n=blitz@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:35 Yes, it comes with a test suite, and test coverage is about 70-80% 18:34:29 If production code means a library you want to release as open source, I'd say it depends. If the library is really small, I wouldn't drag alexandria in. 18:34:30 thanks, i'll look into that 18:34:46 nah i am not writing a library 18:35:04 and i've already dragged in stuff like cl-ppcre and clsql so... 18:35:19 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:35:51 jao [n=jao@94.Red-88-6-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:06 I'd definitively use it in an application. 18:36:30 thanks 18:36:35 nevertheless, it's time for me to call it a day 18:37:48 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:39:27 is there a LISP function/command equivalent to in emacs putting the point after a function definition and C-x C-e to re-evaluate it? 18:40:01 In Slime? 18:40:29 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-125-127.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:40:37 not completely sure. maybe you want C-M-x 18:41:13 in general. I haev a web application. if I change the parameter I'm using to hold the , I have to re-evaluate all page functions for the change to show up. I was hoping to add an internal function to my application to re-evaluate all pages. 18:41:17 <bzwahr> *have 18:42:09 <bzwahr> and apparently both my grammar and spelling suck today :-P 18:42:14 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:30 <beach> I for one could not understand a thing, but that might just be me. 18:42:43 <Hun> errh... C-c C-k? 18:42:50 <bzwahr> again, I'm not looking for emacs commands here 18:43:25 Ficthe [n=roee@unaffiliated/ficthe] has joined #lisp 18:43:26 <bzwahr> I'm looking for something I can put inside (defun reevaluate-all-pages () ...) that will re-run the defun's for certain functions so that changes will show up. 18:43:27 <hypno> i understand as you want to be able to recompile/re-evaluate all stuff that uses that parameter easily? 18:43:35 <beach> bzwahr: If you are looking for predefined Common Lisp functions for manipulating contents of web pages, I think you might be out of luck. 18:43:49 <bzwahr> hypno: no necessarily just that parameter, but that would be a start 18:44:21 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:26 <pjb> beach: but how can this be possible? How can a "programming language" miss such a fundamental feature as manipulating web pages? Incredible! 18:44:29 <Ficthe> what's the benefit of having the book sicp in a physical form, instead of downloading it freely in a digital form? 18:44:35 <hypno> bzwahr: well, is this a global variable or what precisly? 18:44:48 <Hun> Ficthe: being able to beat people with it 18:44:48 <beach> pjb: Yes, we should throw it away and start over. 18:45:01 <pjb> Ficthe: you can still read it after an EMP event. 18:45:05 <bzwahr> ok, forget the web stuff. let's say I add a line to a function. that function is different now. if I run the function in sbcl, the change will not be there. if I reevaluate (redefine?) the function with the change then run the function again, then the "updated" version of the function will run. 18:45:25 <bzwahr> I want to be able to do that from another function. 18:45:39 <bzwahr> hypno: (defparamter *app-title* "title goes here") 18:45:43 <Hun> that's (one of) the purpose(s) of defun 18:45:45 <pjb> bzwahr: yes, you can redefine functions at run-time. 18:45:49 <tcr> Ficthe: It's nicer to read books in dead-tree format; also to support the authors 18:45:58 <Ficthe> I'm asking because I'm a few dollars off in my amazon order to get free shipping.. so I've to get another book. I'm deciding if it ought to be sicp :( 18:46:02 <bzwahr> pjb: how? 18:46:06 <beach> bzwahr: Common Lisp doesn't have the concept of "adding a line to a function". 18:46:10 <pjb> bzwahr: as long as calls to that function are not inlined, changes take effects immediately. 18:46:12 <lnostdal> bzwahr, instead of referring to your functions by #' .. use ' instead 18:46:13 <hypno> bzwahr: sounds like basic hotswapping of code. that works without doing much. just recompiled the changed function. 18:46:51 <Ficthe> fair enough, I hate threes anyway. I'll order SICP then :) thanks fellas. 18:47:08 <beach> threes? 18:47:09 <nyef> lnostdal: Not always necessary. There are a number of cases where the #' will be re-evaluated at run-time. 18:47:15 <bzwahr> must the the way cl-who handles thigns then, because it isn't working. its like the *app-title* parameter value gets hard-coded into the function until I re-evalute (C-x C-e) the function for the web page. 18:47:29 <pjb> (setf (symbol-function 'f) (lambda (...) ...)) or (setf (symbol-function 'f) (compile 'f `(lambda (,...) ,...)) or (eval `(defun f (,...) ,...)) 18:49:07 <lnostdal> http://paste.lisp.org/display/81546 18:49:09 <hypno> bzwahr: the story is a bit less defined for macros tho. if macros are compiled down, dependent code will need updating. (this is usually not the case with a CL that has an interpreter.) 18:50:06 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.85.187] has left #lisp 18:50:17 <bzwahr> hypno: I think that might be what's happening then, because the actually usage of *app-title* is in a macro 18:50:17 <lnostdal> but yeah, nyef is right .. i'm not sure what the exact rules are atm. 18:50:43 <drewc> bzwahr: is it a macro you wrote? 18:51:09 <bzwahr> yes 18:51:10 <hypno> bzwahr: well, you can try the stuff in, say, lispworks and see if it works as intended there. (do not compile it if so). it sucks when you have no interpreter. :( 18:51:42 <bzwahr> I am running this in emacs in slime with sbcl, so that might make a difference. I've never really run lisp code any other way. 18:51:51 <drewc> bzwahr: why is it a macro? 18:52:26 <bzwahr> because it needs to be to work with the rest of the program. its part of setting up the "layout" for a web page. (i.e. basic structure: head tag, title tage, css, javascript, etc) 18:52:30 <ehu> some time ago there was talk of people going to implement download counters on c-l.net. 18:52:40 <ehu> did that materialize? 18:53:00 <ehu> if not, can I access the logs for the web traffic of a specific project? 18:55:12 <drewc> bzwahr: that sounds like nonsense, and my suspicion here is that you don't quite understand when/how to use macros, and hence are asking all the wrong questions ;) 18:55:35 <slyrus_> ehu: gonna start placing adds on cl-net pages? :) 18:56:00 <sykopomp> so uhh... is there a nice way to handle errors popping up from foreign libraries in ccl? 18:56:15 <beach> drewc: Thanks! I was beginning to have that feeling again that I am the only one who didn't understand what the problem is. 18:56:46 <bzwahr> hm,I think its more I'm trying to do some web-based stuff thats probably more suited to being in a database rather than LISP variables, and I'm trying to do things LISP was never meant for. 18:56:53 <drewc> bzwahr: why do you want to include the literal value of *app-title* at compile time and then force a re-compilation of your functions when you change it rather than looking up the value of the variable at run-time and saving the effort? 18:57:02 <drewc> bzwahr: that's nonsense too! 18:57:10 <drewc> and it's 'Lisp' :) 18:58:31 <bzwahr> drewc: for experimentation/learning puroses, I was tyring to keep everything in the LISP file and see just how dynamic I could make it, and if I could make it administratable from the web site itself. 18:58:51 <bzwahr> drewc: but I'm really not sure why changing the value requires a reevaluation 18:58:57 <drewc> bzwahr: if you don't use macros where you shouldn't, you can make it extremely dynamic 18:58:59 <bzwahr> I wouldn't have thought it should, from all the books I've read 18:59:11 <drewc> bzwahr: don't use macros until you understand them! 18:59:22 <tic> and even then, don't, right drewc? ;) 18:59:25 <bzwahr> well, I got them working with the help of #lisp 18:59:31 <drewc> tic: exactly! 18:59:58 <drewc> bzwahr: they obviously don't work as expected, and don't do what you want .. so why are you fighting the suggestion that your code is wrong? 19:00:01 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:00:02 <bzwahr> nto sure how to do what they do without using macros. you can't send multiple functions as one argument to a function like you can using &body for a macro 19:00:04 <beach> bzwahr: Oh, and please write it "Lisp" rather than "LISP"! 19:00:22 <drewc> bzwahr: nonsense again. 19:00:35 <beach> bzwahr: We need to work on your terminology. 19:00:41 <slyrus_> yeah, just because the reader is usually case-insensitive, doesn't mean we are! 19:01:22 <drewc> bzwahr: i think you're missing LAMBDA and higher-order-functions, and don't understand what macros are and what they do. 19:01:36 <bzwahr> they do waht I want. they do exactly what I want. This whole "dynamic title" thing is just an experiment to see if I can modify variables in a running web instance of a web application on the fly. I guess its possibly, but obviously not the way I'm doing things, hence why I'm looking for help learning. 19:01:50 <sykopomp> bzwahr: you're not sending multiple functions as one argument. You're sending a bunch of code. 19:02:10 <sykopomp> if you want to send functions, wrap them with (lambda () ..), and pass your function a list of lambdas. 19:02:16 <bzwahr> sykopomp: ok, true. I stated that incorrectly. Thank you. 19:02:46 <beach> sykopomp: I fear that you have a long and tedious task in front of you. 19:02:56 <sykopomp> beach: I'll stop now. 19:02:57 <drewc> ok, i'm not going to help those that don't want to be helped, so i'm done. 19:03:08 <sykopomp> beach: I should probably read what's been going on before jumping in :) 19:03:38 <beach> sykopomp: Nah! :) 19:04:14 <bzwahr> No no, that made perfect sense, sykopomp. That's what I meant to say. That's what's in my head. It's just not how I articulate my thoughts (which is a part of my barrier working on IRC). When I've got a friend/co-worker over my shoulder, its much easier to explain myself (what with the code in front of both of us and all). 19:04:20 [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.104] has joined #lisp 19:04:21 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-167.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:05:43 <ehu> slyrus_: no, not really: I want to move the downloads for ABCL from SF to cl. 19:05:50 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 19:06:02 <ehu> that'll result in more predictable download urls. 19:07:25 <drewc> ehu: the easy way would be to just redirect through a cgi of some sort that does your download counting. I'm not sure there's an easy way to split the logs by project. 19:08:01 <drewc> ehu: in the case of the former, if you can find/code such a thing, i'll make sure cl-net can run it. 19:08:11 <ehu> drewc: I think you can only split the logs "after the fact" when they get rotated. 19:08:49 <bzwahr> ok, then. I'll concede that I may not understand when to use macros properly, and that by some chance and trial-and-error, I was able to flush out some macros that I thought did what I wanted. I'm new enough to LISP to not warrant any pride in code. If that is the case, could I lisppaste my code and possibly someone could show me the proper way to do it with functions? I don't mean to be a bother, and I'm definitely not here to argue or 19:08:49 <bzwahr> cause any such ruckuss. I really just want to learn. 19:08:57 <nyef> Okay, using clim-desktop / clim-launcher seems to do wonders for basic stability. 19:09:08 <hypno> is there someway to force a variable to SHORT-FLOAT? (the ffi function that sets it, returns a double) 19:09:15 <slyrus_> nyef: and basic usability 19:09:16 <ehu> drewc: I can even code one which doesn't redirect, but sends the output in chunks into Apache. That way, you can see if it runs to completion. 19:09:17 <nyef> hypno: COERCE. 19:09:28 <beach> bzwahr: Yes, please paste some code. 19:09:47 <nyef> slyrus_: Yeah. Now if I could just close the launcher window... Or maybe minimize it to the notification area. 19:10:04 <drewc> you can close the launcher .. non? 19:10:10 Corun_ [n=Corun@dyn1240-63.vpn.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:10:19 <nyef> drewc: Sure. If I want everything to go away. 19:10:43 <drewc> nyef: it doesn't work like that here... i wonder what i've done differently. 19:10:53 <nyef> Probably not kicked it off through clbuild. 19:11:06 <nyef> I've also found two separate failure modes for closure, and no success modes. 19:11:49 <drewc> ah yes ... that's it exactly .. i started the launcher from within slime. 19:12:08 -!- benny` is now known as benny 19:12:12 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-182.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:13:19 <beach> hello fe[nl]ix 19:13:31 <fe[nl]ix> hello beach 19:13:38 <pkhuong> hypno: float. 19:13:49 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:14:02 <beach> fe[nl]ix: how is cltl3 going? 19:14:15 <slyrus_> I should submit my clim-launcher:new-process t for the clim-desktop repo maintainer to commit... 19:14:27 <lisppaste> bzwahr pasted "web application" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81549 19:14:43 <beach> slyrus_: There might not be such a maintainer. Would you like the job? 19:14:49 alantsang [n=alantsan@pcd567174.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 19:15:06 <slyrus_> heh 19:15:15 <fe[nl]ix> beach: I'm working on the pathname proposal 19:15:20 <slyrus_> or I can just keep typing sb-thread:make-thread .. that's less work :) 19:15:30 <beach> fe[nl]ix: excellent! 19:15:37 <hypno> nyef: that one was flat out great. thanks. 19:16:34 <beach> bzwahr: OK, let's start with the basics. First, you use three or four `;' for comments on the top level. Two for a comment on a line by itself indented with the code, and a single one for a comment on the same line as code. 19:17:28 <drewc> beach: i'm currently working on a proposal for portable lexical environments and writing a draft charter for the cltl3 group. 19:17:32 <bzwahr> ok, the comments at the top I just threw in for the lisppaste and just put ; for highlighting purposes 19:17:53 <beach> bzwahr: (if (not stuff) thing) is better expressed as (unless stuff thing) 19:18:16 <nyef> It is sometimes better expressed as (when (not stuff) thing). 19:18:19 <bzwahr> beach: yeah, I never went back and refactored that, though I meant to. 19:18:20 <beach> drewc: That's great! It's too bad you weren't in Milan. 19:18:25 <drewc> now i remember why i don't like clsql ... the bloody reader stuff is nasty looking. 19:18:33 <drewc> beach: i really wish i could have made it. 19:18:46 <beach> drewc: plan for Lisbon next year. 19:19:11 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.245.206] has joined #lisp 19:19:14 <beach> bzwahr: The indentation of the body of select-all-from-test is wrong. 19:19:28 <bzwahr> beach: blame emacs :-P 19:19:39 <ehu> drewc: I seem to remember clsql works without the reader stuff too. 19:20:09 <bzwahr> beach: I must have had some minor-mode on that screwed it up. thanks for pointint it out. 19:20:12 <drewc> ehu: it does, but it's even worse :) 19:20:48 <nyef> Oof. GC invariant lost. 19:20:49 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:27 <drewc> bzwahr: in your LAYOUT-HEADER macro you insert the value of *app-title* at compile time, into the source code. Is that really what you want to do? 19:21:50 <drewc> same for in MAIN-LAYOUT 19:22:30 <bzwahr> drewc: ok <ignorance>why/how is it at compile time?</ignorance> 19:22:38 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-13-184.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:23:13 <drewc> bzwahr: because it' 19:23:21 <drewc> s a macro?!?! 19:23:37 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.129.97] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:23:49 <drewc> that's what macros do, run at compile time to create source which is fed back to the compiler :D 19:24:47 <bzwahr> so everything in a macro is handled at compile time but the generated code isn't inserted until the macro is called from a function during run-time? (I hope I got my terms right there) 19:25:29 <Phoodus> a macro basically rewrites your source code 19:25:31 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@24.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:25:33 <beach> bzwahr: Luckily, no macro stuff happens at runtime, or Common Lisp would have horrible performance. 19:26:09 <drewc> no .. the generated code is expanded at compile time and inserted in place of the macro call. 19:27:13 <hypno> beach: um, why? i was very much dissapointed when i started using scl from lw for this very reason alone. forcing a recompile is no better than C and really makes CL less dynamic. :/ 19:27:17 <sykopomp> cltl3 sounds exciting 19:27:22 -!- Corun [n=Corun@94-194-27-43.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:27:22 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:27:27 <sykopomp> I thought it was a joke when I first read it mentioned :\ 19:27:43 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:47 <hypno> sykopomp: CLTL3?! 19:27:50 <bzwahr> Ok, that's basically what was in my head, I just didn't articulate very well again. So the variable *app-title*'s value is compiled into the generated code at compile time. Then, during run time when I have the macro in a function, the generated code is put in place. 19:27:59 <p_l> hypno: drewc et al ;-) 19:28:05 <sykopomp> or maybe it's still just a big troll and I totally fell for it. 19:28:14 <sykopomp> specially since drewc's involved. I bet he's just messing with me :P 19:28:16 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:21 <drewc> sykopomp: :P 19:28:25 <sykopomp> :)