00:00:20 Just got the 3 volumes of "the postgre reference manual" and Donlad Knuth's Volume 4 first transcript today.. 00:00:43 On the whole not much programming got done.. 00:01:05 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@93-42-84-226.ip85.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["leaving"] 00:02:07 I'm preparing for seting of my bugtrack database with some 30 tables. 00:03:16 Hunchentoot, cl-who, postmodern etc. 00:03:51 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:04:09 Should keep me busy for a while. 00:04:49 this lisp thing ...... i like it. 00:05:45 slackaholic [i=1000@187-24-129-71.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 00:12:26 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:15:18 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:47 dysinger [n=tim@67.97.90.194] has joined #lisp 00:17:01 pjb,hi! 00:17:22 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:21:21 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:25:24 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:26:37 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:04 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:31:44 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-164.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:32:05 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-132-211.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:35:12 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-103-137.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:36:23 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-24-129-71.3g.claro.net.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:40:06 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB"] 00:43:29 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:43:30 -!- dalton [n=ebsjux@187.35.194.80] has quit ["-=[Cyber]=- - reloading server"] 00:43:50 aleister_crowley [n=ebsjux@187.35.194.80] has joined #lisp 00:45:07 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:18 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:45 hermanChess [n=yo@ip13-43-15-186.ct.co.cr] has joined #lisp 00:48:31 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:33 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-47-238.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:49:35 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:15 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-132-211.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:54:15 -!- cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:54:22 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-164.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:54:40 cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has joined #lisp 00:54:47 drewc: what lisp thing? 00:55:30 -!- erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:55:33 erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 00:55:34 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-141-33.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:55:39 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 00:59:42 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-81c6757c9564af0c] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:01:50 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:02:12 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:04:28 -!- Joreji [n=user@42-104.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [No route to host] 01:05:15 is there anyway to have the lisp reader treat backslashes as actual backslashes, not escapes? 01:07:03 ramus`: Do you mean as part of symbol names? 01:07:32 strings in my case. problem is, said strings can be inside lisp objects 01:07:44 objects as in sexps 01:09:18 I guess you could define your own reader macro. You could, in order to make the usual cl strings act like they should, use another character than ". 01:09:56 yeah, should be simple enough to define your own string macro 01:10:15 you could even call it #" 01:10:29 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c023h065.dorm.reed.edu] has joined #lisp 01:10:30 alright, thanks 01:10:33 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c023h065.dorm.reed.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:10:38 np 01:10:58 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c023h065.dorm.reed.edu] has joined #lisp 01:11:04 note that you can't redefine \ by itself, you have to write the whole parser including closing quote. but -- should be reasonably simple. 01:11:05 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:12:14 You might be able to find a reader macro for python-style """ quoted strings. I think someone who used to study at nyu had such a thing in an "inline" c package. 01:12:41 CL-INTERPOL might be something to study? 01:12:45 minion: cl-interpol? 01:12:46 cl-interpol: CL-INTERPOL modifies the reader so that you can have interpolation of strings similar to Perl or Unix Shell scripts. http://www.cliki.net/cl-interpol 01:13:18 that's good to know 01:17:42 -!- aleister_crowley is now known as dalton 01:17:58 -!- Nshag [i=user@193.248.203.58] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:21:56 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-71-197-180-162.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:23:42 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-78-111.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["« La POO c'est bien beau, mais en C au moins on va droit au but. »"] 01:23:43 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:23:46 *hefner* always thought """ (and the insistence on using it in docstrings) is fantastically ugly 01:25:40 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:37 mib_p07p793z [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-473e459828a5869c] has joined #lisp 01:29:15 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:45 dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.83.2.93] has joined #lisp 01:29:51 -!- gqs [n=gqs@208.20.21.190] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 01:30:08 -!- dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.83.2.93] has left #lisp 01:31:05 hi all, spent the last 3hr trying get slime to work on emacs .. I am able to get slime-connect to remote lisp but can't get open remote file to compile 01:32:01 i am getting error file not found 01:32:04 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:33:35 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:22 btw i am following marco's slime movie anyway just wondering anyone available to help 01:34:24 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:34:49 mib_p07p793z: is TRAMP working? 01:35:08 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:04 i think so .. in my .emacs i have (require 'tramp) 01:36:05 Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:20 mib_p07p793z: next question is going to be 'did you use google?', and after that 'how hard did you google?' 01:36:22 i could also within eshell do remote copying 01:37:02 hey drew this is gtasso 01:37:16 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:37:49 i have been googling maybe not hard enough 01:37:51 amblerc [n=user@24-180-81-97.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:37:52 :) 01:38:16 hey gtasso..... questions still stand. google for 'remote slime' :) 01:38:32 ok 01:42:32 slime-connect works .. I could type at the remote repel .. no problem 01:42:52 slime-connect is the easy part .. 01:43:07 ramus`: I have a quote reader macro that behaves reasonably if you want it 01:43:10 C-c C-c requires some thought/work. 01:43:17 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-22-139.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:00 and C-c C-k i guess :) 01:44:19 slyrus: that'd be good to look at, if you don't mind 01:45:15 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:51 ramus`: it's rather simple, but it can be found here: http://git.cyrusharmon.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=smarkup.git;a=blob;f=quote-reader-macro.lisp;h=fc488d6bd3d4e6a14efde0df02eaf4e7ad09408b;hb=HEAD 01:46:01 p_l: .. this lisp thing ... it's a programming language from 50 years ago ... pretty cool... you should check it out! :) 01:46:02 or linked from here: http://git.cyrusharmon.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=smarkup.git;a=summary 01:46:19 *p_l* FACEPALMS REALLY HARD 01:46:34 saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 01:46:49 ramus`: to use it, do things like: #q{this uses "curly braces" instead of double-quotes to quote this string} 01:46:58 alright 01:47:07 slyrus: doesn't do nesting or am i missng something? 01:47:43 slackaholic [i=1000@187-24-129-71.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 01:48:30 no, no nesting. 01:49:05 ramus`: what do you _really_ want do achieve? 01:49:38 drewc: but it generally allows me to cut and paste blocks of code that I want represented as strings for documentation (and, originally, my thesis) 01:49:40 slyrus: does it handle escaped closing delimiters? 01:50:08 drewc: my original goal was to have strings treak backslashes as backslashes, not escape characters 01:50:11 ie: q{\}} = "}" 01:50:20 #q rather 01:50:23 s/treak/treat/ 01:50:54 ramus`: what do you mean be 'strings' ? literal string input? 01:50:55 drewc: no, I guess that would be nice though, but then you have the problem of escaping the escape character :) 01:51:23 the whole idea was a simple quote where I could use different delimiters. If I want to say "}" I can say #q[}] 01:51:44 drewc: reading lisp objects from file, so a string in that kind of situation 01:51:49 s/objects/sexps/ 01:51:52 slyrus: indeed... that's why i can't advocate the solution you gave, and why i'm going ot bug ramus` here until i fnd out what the real requirements are :) 01:52:00 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:52:33 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-24-129-71.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Client Quit] 01:52:41 my requirements were a quick and dirty way to allow me to put lots of #\" all over the place :) works well enough for that... 01:53:06 ramus`: 'lisp objects from a file' ... in lisp string are read and printed in a very specific way ... so i can't imagine that 'lisp objects' would not use lisp syntax for strings. 01:53:10 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:53:17 yeah, that's what i figured 01:53:17 slyrus: indeed... i have the same hack somewhare FWIW :) 01:53:40 came up with a hack to replace backslashes with double backslashes, so i guess that'll work well enough in this case 01:53:53 (before reading in the file, that is) 01:53:58 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:53:58 ramus`: what is it you _really_ want to do? 01:54:30 now you're confusing me :) 01:54:40 ramus`: good! :) 01:55:06 sometimes requirements require actual thought about _what_ that problem is more than the solution. 01:55:36 *drewc* is being obtuse on purpose, and you're free to ignore him 01:55:36 say, a file contains '(a "a\nb")'. reading it gives me '(a "anb") while i want to preserve the backslash 01:55:44 ramus`: why? 01:55:56 becuase i need to preserve the backslashes? 01:56:46 so, you don't want to read lisp source. 01:57:10 clhs \ 01:57:10 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for \. 01:57:36 well .. specbot sucks, but the meaning of #\\ is specified... non? 01:57:52 yes 01:58:15 ramus`: Where does your file come from? Is it printed from a lisp application? 01:58:20 so READ and friends won't help me here 01:58:33 so what is it you _really_ want to do .. it's not 'read lisp source' . so what is it ? 01:58:43 i can scroll up if i missed something. 01:59:16 meingbg: it's output from a parser 01:59:25 which needs to print \n for newlines, etc. 01:59:36 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 01:59:42 which doesn't work so well once i need to process it again, obviously 02:00:11 ramus`: But it's output from an application you've written? 02:00:25 yes 02:00:29 in lisp? 02:00:31 yes 02:00:36 Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:00:49 ramus`: I think the point is that (equal "a\nb" "anb") yields T in lisp 02:01:04 ramus`: So if you need the backslash, you should insert the character 02:01:29 Which is #\\ if I'm right? 02:01:42 ramus`: if what you *actually* want eventually is a newline, the proper answer is to ... put a literal newline in the string. 02:01:43 alright, that's what i'm doing now, inserting backslahses when a backslash comes up 02:01:50 which works fine as far as i can tell 02:02:14 well, consider what happens if your input contains a double quote 02:02:29 If you have a string that includes a backslash, then print that string to a file, then read it, you end up with the same string. 02:03:31 kpreid: actually, 1 backslash replaced with 3, not 2 02:04:12 so "\n" should be "\\\n" which prints as "\n"... looks good to me 02:05:04 *drewc* yells about writing a parser because it's not lisp we're reading... 02:05:14 get off my lawn! 02:05:20 drewc: sorry :) 02:05:36 now that's solved (i think), in conclusion, screw backslashes 02:06:21 ramus`: If you use the lisp printer to write to the file, the strings are going to be written in a way that the reader can read them. Is that not enough? 02:06:27 *drewc* also notices that we're talking about \n .. which in C is #\Newline 02:06:45 *drewc* suspects dirty unix-isms 02:07:14 meingbg: actually, good point. the parser by defaults uses PRINC or something, i should use PRINT or FORMAT in this case 02:09:20 ramus`: exactly. read and friends work fine, but princ is not a friend of read. 02:09:39 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:09:41 silly me, why didn't i think of that earlier 02:10:04 it did "somehow" print a \n in the first place... 02:10:08 ramus`: because it's too late at night? Or where are you? 02:10:25 too much work, maybe i should take a break 02:11:19 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:26 ramus`: take a break, have a beer, laugh at yourself :D 02:11:30 i was having trouble earlier with a regular expression too-- turns out i was substituing a string with a regular expression 02:11:57 ramus`: don't use regexps! where is jwz's quote when it's needed ... 02:12:28 two problems? 02:12:53 that's the one 02:12:58 indeed 02:13:02 i was a perl programmer for 10 years 02:13:15 i used hash tables and regexps and thought the world of them 02:13:45 i've been a full time lisper for 5 years, and you will not see a regexp in anything i've written. 02:14:05 hash-tables yes, but rarely. 02:14:26 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:14:45 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:15:34 i've found that writing a parser is actually quite simple... understanding a regexp .. not so much. 02:15:47 *drewc* has to read the code he writes 02:16:22 it's like a foreign language 02:16:25 drewc: I find myself using has-tables pretty often. How would you for example implement a memoized function? 02:16:54 meingbg: i'd use a hash table, or a btree. 02:17:37 meingbg: in the (probably millions of) lines of lisp, i've used memoization once. 02:18:06 that might not have parsed in english, but we get the idea.. yeah? 02:18:39 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:02 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:19:08 alexgman123 [n=alexgman@cpe-66-75-244-254.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:19:14 meingbg: hash tables are useful, but in perl they are used for everything... i'm just saying that's wrong and evil.... 02:19:15 drewc: So what kind of applications are you writing? 02:19:56 hello! does anyone have experience with axspreadsheet for .net 02:20:03 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-141-33.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:20:15 alexgman123: ... you're asking this in #lisp? 02:20:19 meingbg: data driven web apps mostly ... though i've also been a part of, say, airline reservation systems, and quite a few unrelated apps 02:20:45 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has been kicked from #lisp 02:21:45 drewc: What do you mean with "data driven"? 02:21:52 meingbg: i'm not saying i don't use hash tables.. that would be stupid. i'm saying that i don't use hash tables 1/1000th as much as a use them in perl. 02:22:21 meingbg: i mean that there is a database behind them that the clients would really like to access and CRUD records in. 02:22:24 drewc: I understand. 02:22:48 *drewc* has to go meet his wife 02:22:50 drewc: ok, so db apps. 02:23:12 meingbg: if you say so, sure. 02:24:05 *drewc* thinks QRES, for example, is a lot more than a DB app .. as are most 'data-driven' apps 02:24:19 but what do i know. 02:24:34 *drewc* is going to find his wife now :) 02:27:32 drewc: Well, I was asking since *I* didn't know. 02:29:46 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-2-150.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:30:27 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-141-33.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:30:44 meingbg: ok :) 02:30:58 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:30 -!- amblerc [n=user@24-180-81-97.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:31:44 meingbg: most of the stuff i do is 'super fancy DB frontends' 02:33:28 drewc: frontends that kind of do a lot... 02:33:48 meingbg: yeah ... the DB just, well, stores the data. 02:34:22 it's like a home base for data ... let's just call it a data base ..... :D 02:35:25 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:36:10 drewc: When I think of a "db app", half of it is just letting the user manage the data itself. I guess what you're doing is a little more than that. 02:37:09 meingbg: slightly more .. but not much.. if my users could use SQL, they probably wouldn't need me ;). 02:37:26 drewc: heh:) 02:38:10 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 02:38:12 meingbg: if my users knew SQL and Lisp, well they wouldn't need me at all. 02:38:44 that's why they pay me the big bucks, lol. 02:38:46 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-135-228.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:40:11 drewc: I heard that you're doing CLtL3! :D 02:40:27 drewc: Well, why not? Lisp is a heavy language to learn. Lisp and sql share the treat that they are very high-level, so you can't really tell from the code why it's so slow, or why it's so fast when you just changed that little thing.... 02:40:54 meingbg: have you seen PgAdmin3 interface to EXPLAIN? 02:41:42 meingbg: no, there's much more magic behind SQL. The point of relational algebra is to be declarative and let the underlying engine macrooptimise things for you. That's definitely not how efficient CL is typically written. 02:42:17 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:42:28 meingbg: i'd argue that point for SQL more than lisp... a lisper + a good implementation can know what code puts out what ASM ... and even for SQL if you know what's going on it's the same. 02:42:53 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:42:57 well, actually that not true. 02:43:37 pkhuong: drewc: right. But both lisp and sql is much more high-level than C, that's where I was going. 02:43:48 _I_ know what my query planner on my favorite DB will do for a given query, same as i know what my favorite lisp considers 'fast' code. 02:44:11 meingbg: modern (esp. portably) efficient C is heavily dependent on compiler magic. 02:44:29 meingbg: bullshit. Lisp is a low-level language on machines that implement the lambda-calculus ;) 02:44:59 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:45:19 p_l: really, no. I've used both psql and pgadmin, but never seen the pgadmin interface to explain. I guess it's somewhat better than the console one? I just think it's a shame the table editor is so worthless. 02:45:42 lambda-the-ultimate-goto 'proves' that, even on a VN machine, LAMBDA is, well, low level. 02:46:08 meingbg: it's something that rocked me out of my seat (srsly). It nicely visualised the flow of data generated by query planner along with profiling info. I started optimizing my query for *fun* 02:46:19 (someone smarter than me, please step in now and explain this :)) 02:46:50 drewc: Common Lisp is not a low-level language anywhere, not even in -world! 02:46:59 p_l: EXPLAIN is teh roxors! 02:47:30 p_l: sounds good. 02:47:32 drewc: how do you prevent method-combination complexity from creeping up on you over time? 02:47:41 meingbg: then neither is C .. have you seem Zeta-C ? 02:47:54 sykopomp: wha? 02:47:55 I'm filling my source with :befores, :arounds, and :afters, and I'm starting to wonder if I'll regret it :P 02:48:01 Explain is the second reason (other than user management/database management) I use PgAdmin3 :) 02:48:05 drewc: I haven't. 02:48:39 meingbg: it's a C compiler for a lisp machine ... C is a high-level language as well you know. 02:48:55 sykopomp: maybe the code is simpler if you keep them at a minimum 02:48:58 p_l: i just use EXPLAIN at the psql repl. 02:49:08 drewc: In my world, the effects on a sql query of adding an index that doesn't change the query code at all, is high-level. Perhaps C is high-level too, then. 02:49:11 sykopomp: don't worry avout it. 02:49:13 about 02:49:22 xristos: that's probably true, but they're so nice to use :) 02:49:26 drewc: I haven't met Explain (due to not having any formal education on SQL) before using PgAdmin3 02:49:37 sykopomp: well if its probably true, i'd skip them 02:49:46 p_l: postgres is a lot more than just SQL 02:49:51 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:49:59 xristos: I'll s/probably/possibly/ 02:50:03 drewc: I know. But even keeping with SQL, it's much more than MySQL :D 02:50:04 they are nice but they can also complicate understanding the code 02:50:06 little known fact: POSTGRES was initially written in lisp. 02:50:12 *p_l* is a MySQL hater, basically 02:50:19 if you have to jump around and figure out what is getting called and in what order 02:50:31 things tend to become spaghetti like pretty quick 02:50:33 p_l: mysql is shite, and hardly qualifies as an SQL engine. 02:51:02 xristos: bullshit ... M-. even knows about method combination. 02:51:16 they're saving me a lot of LOC (and potential buggyness) so far when subclassing, though... 02:51:27 drewc: you can only keep so many thingsin your mind at the same time you know 02:51:52 drewc: was it you who showed me that link to mysql 3.23 docs about why they recommend not using constraints? 02:51:55 xristos: i know.. but my compiler can keep it all in mind, and i ask it when i'm confused. 02:52:18 p_l: hells no .. never read them. mysql is a 4 letter word in my shop. 02:52:20 drewc: sometimes you want to have a general idea in your mind and M-. wont give you that 02:52:42 xristos: your mind .. don't speak for me ;) 02:52:43 it depends on the size/complexity of the code though 02:53:23 I think I'm having less of hard time because ogl code is so stateful and procedural, so combining methods to define default behavior that happens at different times seems to make sense.. >_> 02:53:33 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-135-228.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:36 sykopomp: method combination is there to be used, and usoing a :before, for example, is a lot clearer than using a primary method that call-next-method's after what you want to do. 02:54:39 drewc: What packages are you using? I'm trying right now to set up all the layers for my first lisp application, from database (or lisp object cache), through model definition, abstract gui, application logic, and AJAX frontend. Any suggestions for good packages? 02:55:00 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:55:33 meingbg: well, i use ROFL for DB, and LOL for abstract gui and AJAX, and lisp for logic 02:55:38 drewc: heh. I only ever use CNM when defining :arounds, for the most part :) 02:55:44 sykopomp: good! 02:56:27 drewc: almost makes me want to ask what funny acronym LISP would stand for. 02:56:44 sykopomp: do you know what LoL and ROFL stand for? :D 02:56:50 joachifm [n=joachim@193.157.244.15] has joined #lisp 02:57:00 I know what -your- LoL and ROFL stand for, yes :) 02:57:11 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:57:13 it's more that Lisp seems to be the odd one out ;D 02:57:16 drewc: Lisp On Lines, right? 02:57:19 ok, cause i think i'm funny :D 02:57:36 drewc: can't wait for LOL/ROFL/LMAO/WTF get packaged and shipped to unprepared users of other languages ;-) 02:57:44 meingbg: right, and relational-objects-for-lisp 02:57:48 perhaps Leaping Into S-exPressions? 02:58:20 sykopomp: I immediately got the urge to change that into "Leaping Into Sex Perversions" 02:58:34 p_l: hah 02:58:36 p_l: packaging it all for lispers should come first.. it's on my list of things to do 02:58:48 drewc: so it actually runs now? ;D 02:59:04 Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:08 that's pretty exciting 02:59:39 sykopomp: FSVO 'runs' .. it's worked in production for 5 years... made a living off it i did. works for me. 03:00:27 (not (equalp wfm "actually runs")) 03:00:34 equalp used for emphasis. 03:00:39 ;D 03:00:47 what's fsvo stand for, anyway? 03:01:00 minion: what does FSVO stand for? 03:01:00 Falsism Superbrave Vicarate Oligotokous 03:01:01 drewc: I meant packaging it for lispers and "shipping" as in "lispers troll others by advertising it" :P 03:01:30 p_l: never a design goal.... patches welcome ;) 03:01:58 *sykopomp* prefers silly acronyms to ActiveShite 03:02:19 it's hard to believe, but one can make a very good living without having to be a famous internet wanker with a wanky framework 03:02:45 or just a famous internet wanker with a wanky language 03:02:52 (yes, rails, i'm calling you wankers) 03:03:22 sykopomp: exactly. fame != success, save maybe for in the 03:03:26 ... 03:03:27 UDA 03:03:29 USA 03:03:52 *drewc* says that and runs away 03:03:55 yoonkn [n=yoonkn@210.108.170.71] has joined #lisp 03:04:04 amerika, fork year? 03:04:11 -!- Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:04:34 sorry to hit and run there, but i've got other things to do... i'll argue with youse all later :) 03:04:46 drewc: many of them are not so bad, and Ruby itself isn't that wanky... but god save us from certain group of Rails activists, including DHH 03:04:51 drewc: don't make me take this to c.l.l.! 03:05:19 p_l: bullshit ... i learned ruby .. it's wanky. 03:05:36 ruby seems pretty wanky to me. The users I've run into moreso, though. 03:05:48 and with wanky language, I meant Arc. 03:06:06 but I guess it's an old, dead joke at this point (like arc?) 03:06:24 *drewc* points and sykopomp and nods enthusiastically 03:06:50 drewc: Well, I found it quite nice (compared to some stuff that goes around), but certainly nowhere near CL or Haskell 03:07:40 p_l: well, to use a bad analogy.... 03:08:12 Molson Canadian is a good beer compared to Budwieser. 03:08:27 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:31 i think both are shite, and feel the same about ruby compared to, say, python. 03:08:52 'better than terrible' does not mean 'good'. 03:09:31 hell, i think arc is better than ruby .. and don't get me started on arc. 03:09:32 drewc: I moved from PHP 03:09:35 drewc: Where can I take a look at ROFL? The thing with these kind of acronyms, is that google won't help! 03:09:58 meingbg: ./clbuild install relational-objects-for-lisp 03:10:12 meingbg: and ask Fade for some demo code 03:10:12 drewc: oh. 03:10:18 ok. 03:10:36 meingbg: i don't document or promote my code... but please feel free to ask me about it. 03:10:59 meingbg: i'll make sure it works for you as long as you are willing to try :) 03:10:59 drewc: Good attitude. 03:11:02 drewc: you don't document it -at all- 03:11:08 >:| 03:11:12 *p_l* thinks clbuild needs a self-update shortcut 03:11:15 sykopomp: i document some.... 03:11:32 sykopomp: Lisp *is* documenting. 03:11:33 sykopomp: but i don't write code for you .. i write it for my clients..... 03:11:42 drewc: last time I looked, the only comments were along the lines of: ;; BEGIN HACK HERE (.... ) ;; HACK ENDS 03:11:49 :P 03:12:03 if i were to document, you'd have no cliki, no common-lisp.net, no alu-wiki (latter comming back soon). 03:12:06 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:12:08 i'm just the one man 03:12:45 drewc: You're behind all those sites? 03:12:52 sykopomp: 'hack' from me is better than 90% of non-hacks you'll find.. i'm just honest about it :P 03:13:13 :D 03:13:44 meingbg: i keep them running.... i'm not the founder, but i've taken the resposability. 03:14:01 *drewc* doesn't know how to spell either 03:14:24 drewc: That'd still be a lot of work. 03:14:52 meingbg: it's enough that i don't spend my time documenting my work :) 03:15:37 i could spend less time on #lisp and more time documenting... 03:15:55 but what fun would that be? :D 03:15:59 drewc: I don't document either. The only comments I have, are ;;fixme's and code commented-out. 03:16:08 -!- dysinger [n=tim@67.97.90.194] has quit [] 03:16:54 ok .. i'm going visiting on the boatyard .. cheers #lisp 03:17:16 drewc: cheers. 03:18:28 o7 03:18:37 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:54 *p_l* wonders if updating clbuild managed to get darcs into infinite loop 03:21:26 i had my CPU maxed out for 3 days because i didn't see some runaway darcs --help (...?) processes 03:22:01 sykopomp: i see you use ftgl 03:22:17 xristos: I do. It's pretty fantastic so far. 03:22:29 does it support kerning/lcd filtering ? 03:22:40 I believe it supports kerning, yes. 03:23:08 i'll have to take a look 03:23:45 the cl-ftgl bindings are pretty rough right now, but what I need is basic enough that it hasn't bothered me :) 03:24:10 speaking of graphics libraries 03:24:20 apparently, devIL supports loading of mp3s (as images) 03:24:25 the more you know 03:24:44 that's just retarded 03:24:57 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:25:10 hmmm... I can see why, though 03:25:19 hefner: http://openil.sourceforge.net/features.php I think they just ran out of image formats to load, so they loaded mp3s for lulz or something. 03:25:50 sykopomp: yeah :-) But graphic ops on audio stream are also nice 03:25:53 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 03:26:01 p_l: oh? 03:26:01 equally retarded 03:26:10 "let's make ear-bleeding noise and blog about how clever we are!" 03:26:46 I think loading mp3s is to image-loading libraries as having an email client is to text editors... 03:27:18 hefner: I was thinking of that scheme-based audio livecoding thingy 03:27:39 *sykopomp* hopes something like it is available for CL some day. 03:27:53 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c023h065.dorm.reed.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:27:55 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/session] has joined #lisp 03:28:47 impromptu ? 03:28:52 yeah 03:28:52 03:29:03 its nice 03:29:11 it also seems to be OSX-only 03:29:32 so even if I were to clench my teeth and use scheme, it wouldn't fly on my dinky foss machine :( 03:29:40 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 03:29:44 fluxus works on linux 03:29:52 if you can stomach drscheme 03:31:30 its a bit unstable though, given that all the crucial bits are written in c++ 03:31:44 heh 03:32:04 neah 03:32:08 a cl equivalent seems like the preferred solution, here. 03:32:12 (clearly) 03:34:13 not very easy to do it though 03:34:24 if you dont want to tie it to a platform 03:34:38 it's unfortunate :( 03:34:40 X-Scale2 [n=email@89.180.166.100] has joined #lisp 03:35:03 c= 03:35:13 (oops, wrong window) 03:35:33 you'll never get anything done wasting time trying to write portable code 03:35:43 except maybe writing some nice portability libraries 03:35:55 I haven't found it -that- hard to write portable code. 03:36:20 hefner: portable code is not the issue 03:36:53 windows support is 03:36:55 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-71-138-130-18.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:16 (a matter of implementation support mostly) 03:37:23 maybe ecl does the trick 03:37:36 *hefner* slams his head against the wall, attempts to decipher this newspeak 03:37:45 I thought ccl and clisp both had fairly decent windows support 03:37:58 <_< 03:38:08 clisp has no thread support and is slow 03:38:10 that there's no ideal free CL implementation for windows is easily solved by not caring about it 03:38:27 well i do care about windows as i want my stuff to be used 03:38:30 given that your futuristic CL livecoding environment is likely to have a userbase of 1 anyway 03:38:34 xristos: but it doesn't have thread support on anything, so it's perfectly cross-platform! :P 03:39:04 hefner: actually there is quite a market there 03:39:13 plenty of ppl willing to pay good money for substandard tools 03:39:14 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:39:21 and yes -- it's good to have windows support. Just like there are unfortunate souls out there that still use IE6, there's certainly a userbase to be supported in windows-land. 03:40:14 I guess I'll never understand. If you want to make money off people fine, but supporting windows for the sake of charity is braindead. 03:40:28 of course i want to make money 03:40:42 its not guaranteed, but its nice to have the option 03:40:52 hefner: also for the sake of actually having a userbase larger than 3 basement-dwelling neckbeards. 03:41:11 sykopomp: which accomplishes what? 03:41:34 hefner: people actually using something I release. 03:41:47 which accomplishes what? strokes your ego? 03:41:59 -!- beach`` is now known as beach 03:42:04 it also fattens my bank account. 03:42:11 both of these seem to be worthy goals. 03:42:16 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:18 Good morning. 03:42:26 *hefner* throws a rock at sykopomp 03:42:28 mornin' beach. 03:42:43 if you're going to argue the "I want to sell stuff!" angle, please state so, as xristos has. 03:43:03 I care more about the getting-people-to-use-my-thing part. 03:43:05 unless you have elaborate schemes for profiting from free software that I'm unaware of. 03:43:18 I do have elaborate schemes for profiting from free software, actually. 03:43:36 but I patented them, so I don't really want to discuss them. 03:45:33 sykopomp: if you patented them, then they are out in the wild, even if other's can't use them :D 03:45:37 xristos, in your GL Listener, do you keep all the history, do you wrap text, and do you cache the wrapped text views? 03:45:50 p_l: they are, but I don't have to tell you where!!!1 03:45:53 i cache everything 03:46:09 and i keep all history yes 03:46:47 did you link this gl listener at some point? I don't remember if it was you that was writing one of those GL dev environments... 03:47:33 the window is resizable, right? 03:47:48 yes 03:48:16 if i resize then usually layout code runs again 03:48:23 and textures are updated 03:48:47 sykopomp: i did one a year ago 03:49:02 hrm 03:49:05 interesting 03:49:11 exploratory experiment 03:49:19 i scrapped it and did it again 03:49:19 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-134-169.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 03:49:44 manic12: basically i render everything to textures 03:50:04 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.141.183] has joined #lisp 03:50:13 yeah, I was "hrm interesting"-ing that 03:50:38 I'm using bitmaps for the chars and glCallLists 03:50:53 bitmap fonts ? 03:51:01 they're abysmally slow 03:51:07 the glyphs are bitmaps 03:51:08 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89-180-166-7.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:51:28 -!- xinming is now known as Guest55490 03:51:48 in your case it probably does not matter 03:52:11 but if you do a lot of text rendering, it can add up 03:53:46 so are you saying that for yours you have a texture of the font and grab a chunk of the texture out to render each character or are you saying you texturify your listener history? 03:53:47 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 03:54:09 i remember your scrolling being very smooth 03:54:19 from reading ftgl stuff, I thought texture fonts were faster for general text rendering, and buffered faster for repeatedly writing the same thing... 03:54:34 manic12: i use core text to do the rasterization of fonts 03:54:52 i get rasterized bitmaps and stick em in textures 03:54:59 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-6-66.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:55:02 yeah 03:55:08 man, am I glad I found ftgl. I just call ftgl:render-font :\ This sounds like a huge mess just to get text on-screen. 03:55:16 http://dmedia.dprogramming.com/?n=Tutorials.TextRendering1 03:55:16 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-103-137.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:55:19 -!- beach` is now known as beach 03:55:20 check this out 03:55:24 ok 03:55:30 i do pretty much the same thing 03:55:56 I do have some code to render text to textures and then use parts of the texture to render to primitives 03:56:07 but I decided against that 03:56:39 manic12, xristos, sykopomp: will your listener/textediting etc. stuff be published somewhere (I mean outside of, potentially closed, apps you're writing them for?) 03:56:42 sykopomp: it is a mess but its also the right way 03:56:53 ftgl does not expose full functionality 03:57:03 unless they added things recently 03:57:03 because I render text right over the top of other primitives which i want to see 03:57:18 -!- timchen119 is now known as nasloc__ 03:57:28 xristos: I guess. I don't know much about this. Today was the first time I ever rendered fonts to ogl :\ 03:57:40 p_l: my current code is online, as is pretty much anything I'm working on. 03:57:49 manic12: slava had some blog posts where he explained how he did it for factor 03:58:11 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 03:58:13 very similar 03:58:27 the text rendering is really not the issue I having problem with actually 03:58:58 but this artitcle looks like good info 03:59:17 ar"tit"cle ? 03:59:39 anyway, I'm keeping around too much junk in the form of strings 03:59:50 and the problem is ? 04:01:03 i keep the regular history and then I keep a cache of "rows" which gets invalidated and recomputed when the window width changes 04:01:37 the old version i wasn't keeping the cache and it worked ok, but a bit slow 04:02:00 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-90-12.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:02:05 you said to me that you only render when things change 04:02:24 i do 04:02:24 right ? 04:02:26 yes 04:02:50 when does it slow down then ? 04:03:00 the render itself is slow 04:03:18 so if you try to do too many of them the screen will white-out for a sec 04:03:22 what are you rendering 04:03:42 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-112-198.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:03:42 basically a vector of strings 04:03:57 each pos in the vector is a row 04:04:23 manic12: profile the code 04:04:28 yeah 04:04:38 although i suspect your use of bitmaps does not help 04:06:14 so in yours when you scroll back is it recomputing the cache from the history? 04:06:26 i hope you are not creating the bitmaps per glyph 04:06:45 normally you should create them once and cache and reuse them 04:06:57 beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-115-222.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:07:11 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as X-Scale 04:07:23 I create the bitmaps, each char is a display list 04:07:38 i am recompuing 04:07:41 -!- Guest55490 [n=hyy@125.109.252.77] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:08:03 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:18 scrolling was smooth because i wrote it with that intention 04:08:26 so i set the list-base and and then do (glCallLists length GL_UNSIGNED_BYTE native-string) 04:09:12 i guess I'm being so particular because I really want to be able to beat on this listener once I'm done with it 04:09:28 definitely something of utility 04:09:44 manic12: this is the slowest way to render text with opengl 04:09:58 if you want performance, you should look into textures 04:10:03 ok 04:10:13 do you keep strings around for your rows? 04:10:28 i dont keep strings per se 04:10:30 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:10:36 i keep objects that i have in the listener 04:10:44 when they are visible and they need to be laid out/rendered 04:10:57 I'm doing something similar 04:10:58 they can be rendered as strings if their representation is a string 04:10:59 i also have images 04:11:06 and animations 04:11:08 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 04:11:11 oh maybe not 04:12:22 I have history objects with strings in them 04:12:34 and each history object has a view 04:12:47 and a view may have a continuation on it 04:13:00 which is for computing more rows if you want to scroll 04:14:19 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:15:26 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-6-66.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:16:13 sounds complicated 04:16:50 yeah :( 04:17:12 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-141-33.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:17:20 you should find where the bottleneck is 04:19:21 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-90-12.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:19:26 don't you need to render a primitive to render texture on to it and doesn't that cause a problem, or at least make things complicated if you have other objects behind your glyphs? 04:19:42 rendering text with glCallLists sends a lot of geometry to the card everytime you do it 04:20:07 compare that to packing a texture with glyphs and sending it to the card 04:20:39 *manic12* is in the dark ages 04:20:46 sounds like a loss to me, except that it's a lot easier to get high quality if freetype does the positioning 04:21:12 (not that i'm advocating glCallLists) 04:21:29 freetype/coretext 04:21:39 why a loss ? 04:22:00 you aren't going to have more than several thousand characters on the screen at any given time 04:22:07 there is a problem if you need a lot of different sized glyphs 04:22:25 sure 04:22:36 thats exactly why the texture approach is faster 04:22:54 a few thousand textured quads is a drop in the bucket compared to the stuff that games render in real time 04:23:31 also graphics cards are optimized for fast texture uploads 04:23:41 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 04:23:52 i can't say the same about how they treat display lists and bitmap operations these days 04:23:53 good thing, too, because you'll be doing a lot of them 04:24:28 -!- beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-112-198.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:24:35 hefner: i don't do a lot of texture uploads 04:24:57 i pack a large texture full of glyphs upload that to the card 04:24:58 xristos, how do you set the alpha on the primitive so that you see just the char and can see through to whatever is behind the primitve? 04:25:09 then i can use parts of it to render single glyphs 04:25:25 i dont have to upload a texture per glyph 04:25:28 that would be stupid 04:25:36 who said anything about that? 04:25:52 -!- beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-115-222.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:25:56 a moment ago, you were talking about rendering whole strings as textures (or portions of textures) 04:26:55 manic12: texture alpha blending ? 04:30:58 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:41:14 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 04:41:20 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:41:43 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 04:41:45 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E476C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:34 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:45:19 sunwukong [n=vukung@125-14-81-177.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:47:17 -!- hermanChess [n=yo@ip13-43-15-186.ct.co.cr] has left #lisp 04:48:44 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:49:39 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 04:49:42 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-218.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:51:56 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 04:55:27 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 04:59:03 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47105.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:04:55 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-18-236.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 05:06:13 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-134-169.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 05:11:39 this freetype stuff is going to have to be a project for another night :\ 05:13:22 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:16:44 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 05:17:25 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-57-140.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:17:29 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 05:17:33 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 05:18:29 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:25:57 jmbr [n=jmbr@169.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 05:26:46 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has left #lisp 05:29:19 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:30:44 |Wolf| [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 05:30:58 -!- |Wolf| [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:31:51 ... darcs is still applying patches 05:32:58 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 05:34:30 I think I'll make it stop and redownload clbuild... 05:39:15 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:40:55 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:44:49 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 05:45:45 hello 05:47:55 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:49:02 Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:56:41 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:56:57 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:57:13 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:37 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 05:58:40 profiling rendering functions is a pain 05:58:48 tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.145] has joined #lisp 05:59:21 speeding up all the complex float arith except for complex single float division which suffers a sizable slowdown (and element-wise extraction, which is slightly slower)... Is that acceptable? 05:59:57 -!- mib_p07p793z [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-473e459828a5869c] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 06:00:46 pkhuong: did you have any more (portable) changes to the fft code after the version you lisppasted? 06:01:17 splittist [n=dmurray@196-111.0-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:01:21 morning 06:01:46 not yet. There's a kernel generator in the queue, along with a transposition-based version. 06:02:13 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 06:02:15 does anyone even use complex division in (performance-sensitive) real life? 06:02:42 tessier [n=treed@unused-105-40-113.ixpres.com] has joined #lisp 06:04:33 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:04:45 pkhuong: if you want to compute möbius transformations, then you need complex division 06:08:32 my sample is crappy, but indeed glCallLists took 2/3 of the time 06:13:00 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:13:01 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:06 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:15:28 dysinger [n=tim@12.35.79.2] has joined #lisp 06:16:48 ASau [n=user@host60-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:17:38 -!- dysinger [n=tim@12.35.79.2] has quit [Client Quit] 06:21:30 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:23:40 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 06:31:27 aerique [i=euqirea@194.109.21.3] has joined #lisp 06:34:06 something for the webapp people around us: http://thejit.org/home/ 06:35:14 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:02 rdad [n=rdad@cpe-67-247-62-86.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:40:18 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:41:16 -!- tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.145] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:46:44 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:47:54 mega1 [n=mega@pool-02149.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:48:17 jajcloz_ [n=jaj@pool-173-76-163-72.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:27 i wonder if any universities offer degrees in fonts 06:48:54 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:40 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:53:11 -!- rdad_afk [n=rdad@67.247.62.86] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:53:47 manic12: they do 06:54:27 ironic 06:55:06 here I am with a degree in mech. eng writing cad software and my time is being chewed up by text rendering 06:56:54 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:57:17 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:57:31 frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 06:57:36 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-3-163.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:57:42 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:06 good morning 06:58:29 morning 06:58:45 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:03:45 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:03:59 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:04:29 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-173-76-163-72.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:05:24 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [] 07:09:18 yes g'day 07:16:39 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.100.126] has joined #lisp 07:17:08 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.100.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:17:29 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.100.126] has joined #lisp 07:23:25 bobf_ [n=bob@host86-154-148-76.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 07:24:56 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 07:34:18 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:35:16 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:39:53 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:41:03 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:43:48 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 07:45:46 hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 07:47:33 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:49:47 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.32] has joined #lisp 07:57:14 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:59:57 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 08:08:49 HG` [n=wells@85.8.89.88] has joined #lisp 08:11:15 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:13:32 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:14:10 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:14:52 jewel_ [n=jewel@41.242.134.212] has joined #lisp 08:15:12 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-168-22.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 08:23:23 -!- retupmoca` [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-214-2-208.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:26:09 retupmoca` [n=retupmoc@70.237.122.129] has joined #lisp 08:30:49 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 08:37:56 -!- cavesnow__ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:43:53 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-128-160.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:58 good morning 08:48:08 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 08:49:59 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:44 does these remind anyone of Scheme? http://weburbanist.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/spokeless-bicycle-1.jpg 08:53:03 s/these/this/ 08:53:31 Hmm, that is nice. I wonder how robust it is ... 08:53:55 looks like something i could destroy in a second 08:54:05 And how strong the gyro effect is on that (stronger  better riding stability). 08:54:12 it reminds me a can opener 08:54:19 simplicity, beauty, elegance, magic, and pain in the ass. Yep, Scheme it is. 08:55:52 morning 08:56:12 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:31 freetype doesn't seem to be compilable on x64 windows that i can tell 08:58:51 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@169.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:59:33 maxote [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 09:01:22 the whole post looks good, actually http://weburbanist.com/2009/03/03/futuristic-strange-concept-bicycles-designs/ 09:01:31 can anyone suggest a new career I might like? 09:03:48 manic12: vaguely related to programming; lead generation and sales might be good, specially if you're into going crazy. 09:04:21 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 09:04:55 just because I'm manic doesn't mean i'm "into" going crazy, but thanks for the suggestion. what do you think about arborist? 09:04:56 you cold call large corporate entities going by nothing more than a press release, and you find the person responsible for puraches for that particular project; social engineering your way past all sorts of hell. 09:05:43 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:05:52 plants are good, not much social engineering needed there. 09:06:45 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 09:08:26 lumberjack, definitely 09:08:34 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 09:09:49 i would need to start slowly, this sitting at the computer stuff has made chainsaws heavy 09:13:16 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181130081.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:13:25 hoy 09:15:39 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:15:39 -!- rdad [n=rdad@cpe-67-247-62-86.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:17:17 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@125-14-81-177.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit ["bye"] 09:19:20 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:20:02 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 09:21:14 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has left #lisp 09:22:46 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:22:57 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 09:23:04 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:23:29 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has left #lisp 09:28:10 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:07 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:33:25 reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:34:48 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:36:14 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@41.242.134.212] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:37:28 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:41:58 benny [n=benny@i577A2576.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:43:00 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:45:43 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 09:45:57 AllNight^ [n=nobody@ai-core.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:47:09 -!- Zenton` [n=user@212.166.192.129] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:51:51 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 09:53:03 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:54:20 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:55:14 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@c80-216-56-247.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:57:30 kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has joined #lisp 09:59:45 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-2-150.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 10:05:43 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:06:22 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 10:07:31 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:07:58 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 10:09:21 rtra [n=user@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 10:11:56 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:13:26 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-128-160.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 10:16:53 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 10:22:06 Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.163.100.126] has joined #lisp 10:24:55 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@89.180.52.137] has joined #lisp 10:28:15 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 10:30:47 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.100.126] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:34:39 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:35:29 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-56.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:37:30 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:45 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 10:40:46 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@c-76-21-5-11.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:13 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:46:27 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs181130081.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:46:45 -!- |stern| is now known as seelenquell 10:47:06 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@c80-216-56-247.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:48:02 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181130081.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:49:12 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:51:15 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:53:18 -!- hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [] 11:01:02 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-67-143.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:03:40 tihonov [n=kef@kefeer2.convex.ru] has joined #lisp 11:05:31 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:06:07 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:07:36 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:53 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:18:45 -!- frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:19:13 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 11:25:01 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 11:29:48 -!- ausente is now known as dalton 11:30:13 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E392.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:41 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 11:39:10 azanar [n=azanar@dsl231-050-107.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:45 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:40:37 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-8289e1649f24f032] has left #lisp 11:42:18 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-134-169.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:42:32 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has joined #lisp 11:43:40 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:45:09 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:51 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:45:51 -!- dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:47:37 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:48:43 Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:49:46 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:11 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 11:52:50 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:55:23 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:55:46 -!- projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has left #lisp 11:56:44 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 11:57:05 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:57:07 -!- AllNight^ [n=nobody@ai-core.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:57:35 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 12:00:36 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:00:50 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:00:56 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:00:58 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:02:09 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:02:18 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:04:59 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 12:05:20 Damn it. 12:05:23 whoops, wrong channel. 12:05:26 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has left #lisp 12:06:37 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 12:08:31 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:11:30 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-22-139.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:59 -!- tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:12:25 tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:53 stepnem` [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:20 -!- Corun is now known as Corun|away 12:13:44 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:24 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:19:08 dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:19 -!- Corun|away is now known as Corun 12:24:27 -!- stepnem` [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:24:27 -!- tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:24:38 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-148-10-154.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 12:24:44 tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:40 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 12:28:52 -!- tihonov [n=kef@kefeer2.convex.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 12:31:18 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 12:35:38 -!- heanol_ [n=heanol@83.140.32.143.dyn.rp80.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:36:23 ThomasIl [n=thomas@91-64-175-160-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:36:58 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs181130081.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:38:15 leyyer_su [n=user@222.210.196.178] has joined #lisp 12:38:40 -!- HG` [n=wells@85.8.89.88] has quit [Client Quit] 12:40:09 -!- leyyer_su [n=user@222.210.196.178] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:41:26 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 12:41:47 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:41:54 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs181130081.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:42:41 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:42:46 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 12:43:15 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:43:26 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.100.126] has joined #lisp 12:51:11 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 12:52:31 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:54:01 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:04 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 12:58:58 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:04 saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 12:59:59 -!- Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.163.100.126] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:00:07 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:00:21 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:41 hnr [n=henry@62.49.66.13] has joined #lisp 13:06:42 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 13:13:13 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has quit [Client Quit] 13:16:08 huh, is http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html an empty page for others too? 13:16:21 nope, works here 13:16:23 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-168-22.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 13:17:58 Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 13:19:43 yeah, here too. Have you read the latest "how I hacked 'Hacker news'"? It contains an attack just like that 13:20:20 *nikodemus`* reads 13:22:43 jmbr [n=jmbr@191.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:22:47 i don't see how that's applicable here 13:24:01 no sessions or accounts to grab: the page is static, and observably there -- even i can see it in safari, but not in firefox 13:24:20 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087A2F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:45 something wrong with the cache? 13:25:18 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:46 apparently. refreshing didn't help, but clearing the cache explicitly did 13:25:58 bafflement 13:26:46 nikodemus`: sorry, I meant some random bod going onto an IRC channel and saying 'can you see http://foo/bar.html -- it's down for me' 13:26:49 that forms a part of the attack 13:32:19 asksol_ [n=ask@084202248064.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 13:33:09 ah 13:34:03 hey, i even managed to remember my gpg passphrase -- victory! 13:34:19 -!- Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving..."] 13:37:37 Apple's pretty good at keeping that info secret/back 13:41:15 Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:42:10 nikodemus`: firefox's cache uses some lossy url hashing scheme, iirc, so sometimes it, well, loses 13:42:16 is there a built in lisp function that can check whether a string is made up out of numbers? 13:42:37 Gertm: or digits, you mean? 13:42:44 (every #'digit-char-p string) 13:43:00 stassats`: I'd have used a regexp, this is sweet 13:43:08 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:43 -!- Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 13:44:11 Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:44:36 cracki [n=cracki@46-203.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:45:23 -!- Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 13:46:36 i had to add an internal config key pointing to my current firefox cache directory (IOW, redefining the default to the default), otherwise caching stopped working randomly - tells it all about the quality of the codebase... 13:49:08 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:51:22 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:33 /j #stumpwm 13:55:13 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 13:55:17 you're already here! :) 13:56:43 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6EB7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:16 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-218.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:58:30 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-129-37.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:00:33 -!- jajcloz_ [n=jaj@pool-173-76-163-72.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 14:05:15 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 14:07:54 'morning 14:07:55 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@43.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:08:39 nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:50 G'morning all. 14:09:01 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [" MS forgot to close port 80 "] 14:10:32 danlei [n=user@pD9E2EB51.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:47 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087A2F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["I am Locutus of Borg! You will assist us!"] 14:11:23 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@c-76-21-5-11.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:13:17 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-88-17.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:14:53 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:15:12 hey 14:15:20 I have a problem with sbcl 14:15:32 witch is kinda wierd 14:15:36 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 14:15:36 describe it 14:15:36 nurv101 pasted "sbcl deleting unreachable code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81351 14:15:50 there's the paste 14:16:22 it's not a problem :) 14:16:23 the (mod number 26) inside the push in decode is deleted while compiling 14:16:31 but in alisp it does work 14:16:36 in sbcl doesn't 14:16:54 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:16:58 nikodemus`: how is not a problem? I don't seem to find what is the problem 14:17:03 it's not the (MOD NUMBER 26) that is being deleted 14:17:27 nikodemus`: then what is? 14:17:30 Peaker [n=Peaker@87.69.176.150] has joined #lisp 14:17:47 Hey, do you consider dynamic scoping, Lisp-2, and multi-return values to be mistakes in various Lisp designs? 14:18:00 the compiler open codes the call to MOD, notices that one leg is dead (because NUMBER is always greater than 26), and deletes that leg 14:18:03 and not related to the problem note: write (floor number 26) instead of (floor (/ number 26)) 14:18:13 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:18:27 Peaker: No to the contrary, I value all three very much, and wouldn't want to live without 14:18:55 this; --> BLOCK LET IF AND IF AND IF PLUSP > 14:19:07 refers to the open coded stuff 14:19:08 tcr: Do you think dynamic scoping should be default or just explicitly used? 14:19:32 where as this: ==> NUMBER 14:19:35 Peaker: Not by default. 14:19:40 tells what is actually being deleted 14:19:47 it's a bogus note, though 14:19:52 tcr: how should dynamic scoping be used? An explicit namespace being passed as an argument? 14:20:04 just being printed due to the broken code deletion detection heuristic 14:20:04 that it is 14:20:10 Peaker: look how CL does that 14:20:20 ... Why (floor (/ number 26))? 14:20:29 stassats`: how do you access a caller's variable name? 14:20:32 (in CL) 14:20:33 Peaker: Overusing special variables can easily lead to pretty unreadable code. But then overusing, or misusing, pretty much anything leads to unreadability. 14:20:35 FLOOR itself is a division operator. 14:20:58 Peaker: I'd favor an explicit namespace. ISLISP does that. 14:21:04 nyef: too late 14:21:05 no disagreement there -- preferably it should not appear, but it's appearance does not mean SBCL is doing anything strange, just being it's own verbose self 14:21:14 paper_cc [n=paper_cc@217.10.38.198] has joined #lisp 14:21:17 is there a search engine for clhs somewhere? or a custom google search? 14:21:17 its, even 14:21:25 nyef: because i didn't know that floor was division operator 14:21:48 tcr: Does Lisp have function composition easily accessible in its prelude? If so, why is multi-values useful? Why not compose the result with car? 14:22:03 Peaker: You come from Haskell, right? 14:22:07 tcr: yeah 14:22:18 Peaker: you access them just like lexical bindings 14:22:20 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:29 Peaker: No ANSI Common Lisp does not define a composition function, though pretty much anyone got in their utils. 14:22:36 nikodemus`: So, he is deleting NUMBER, correct? but if he deletes NUMBER the mod doesn't work 14:22:46 stassats`: Ah, so I see. 14:22:47 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@191.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:22:59 stassats`: oh -- so there's no way to know if a variable access is coming from a surrounding lexical scope or a caller's frame? 14:23:00 *nyef* clearly isn't fully awake this morning. 14:23:00 Peaker: The great advantage of multiple return values is that you can add an additional return value without having to modify any caller. 14:23:11 -!- azanar [n=azanar@dsl231-050-107.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:23:14 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:23:31 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:23:39 tcr: but why not just create a new function and keep one for compatibility? There are tons of changes you might want to make to a function's semantics which require doing this anyway? 14:23:40 Peaker: syntactically, no, but there's a convention to put ** around dynamic variables 14:23:42 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 14:23:49 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:09 A really fun trick for multiple return values is returning a plist, then destructring-bind the multiple-value-list of the result. Almost never gets used, though. 14:24:16 tcr: e.g: (defun compatibilityFunc () (. car old-func)) 14:24:24 oops, (. car new-func) 14:24:58 stassats`: How often are these variables used? what advantage does this have over explicitly passing a namespace as an argument? 14:25:11 Peaker: How would you name the new function? 14:25:17 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-191-51.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:56 Peaker: as often as you need, i haven't considered different namespaces, so i don't know 14:26:07 tcr: I might have to put it in a new namespace, e.g: a bumped version number on the package's name 14:26:28 stassats`: strictly speaking, you never "need" them, you can always explicitly pass them as arguments 14:26:51 strictly speaking, you don't need anything but a turing machine 14:27:13 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087A2F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:44 jajcloz [n=jaj@173-9-20-27-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:17 stassats`: sure you do, turing machines are very slow, and have lower reliability, et al :) 14:28:55 also, don't exist 14:29:18 (and even if you could get over the infinite tape business, lightspeed would be an issue :) 14:29:20 Peaker: as far as i know turing machines are more reliable than any real machines. 14:29:22 not taking memory into account, my core 2 duo is fast enough for me 14:29:37 Peaker: That would require lots of bookkeeping code, and changes all over the place. CL allows what you really want to do: Add another return value. Simply as that. 14:30:22 stassats`: well, memory is cheap; add memory :) 14:30:32 jdz: I meant to say Turing Machines make it harder to create reliable programs, by having no type system, etc 14:30:55 Peaker: Common Lisp allows you to grow everything interactively. To grow you datastructures, your algorithms, your program. And your API. 14:31:03 nurv101: it works. test it if you don't believe me -- the message is stupid, but nothing to worry about 14:31:08 rsynnott: but i've no money for infinite memory 14:31:18 tcr: Do users of multi-return functions take the "first N" return values? 14:31:37 they take as much as they need 14:31:38 Peaker: They decide. By default only the first return value, the primary return value, is consumed. 14:31:51 oh, infinite memory is a problem, yes 14:32:00 Peaker: very few machines have type systems as such 14:32:20 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-19-46.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:32:24 nikodemus`: the problem is that, it doesn't. In fact in SBCL doesn't and in alisp does. It can be from another thing, but since this was the only message i get while compiling the code 14:32:53 rsynnott: yeah, I think stassats` was referring to using the Turing machine directly as a language 14:33:23 Peaker: turing machines are universal, so you can have any type system you want in it 14:33:29 nurv101: it's essentially replacing the MOD with (IF (< -1 NUMBER 26) NUMBER (REALLY-MOD NUMBER 26)) 14:33:40 the first leg of IF is the thing deleted 14:34:00 nurv101: What constitutes "works" and "doesn't work"? 14:34:38 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:49 mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:35:25 jdz: well, if you use the turing machine itself as a language directly, and not implement one in it, then you don't get to have much of a type system or any other language feature :) 14:35:34 Peaker: and remember that common lisp is not lazy, so you cannot talk about "not consuming" return values (all return values are consumed, but only some of them might be used in tre program) 14:35:40 if you replace NUMBER with N, the note disappears: SBCL happens to internally use the same variable name -- CL:NUMBER -- for the variable it rebinds for the open coding, which confuses its heuristics about if it was user code that got deleted or not 14:35:41 Peaker: Does it happen in the Haskell world often that a new function is introduced and the old function is retained as such? Sure there are cases, but don't people just break their API if it's not a wide-used library? 14:36:01 tcr: the solution in the Haskell world is package versioning and explicit versions in dependencies 14:36:04 Peaker: and if you create a typed turing machine in another turing machine, does that count? 14:36:05 nurv101 pasted "sbcl running error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81352 14:36:13 kefka [n=user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 14:36:16 Oh. 14:36:18 nyef: there it is 14:36:30 Yeah, just saw it. 14:36:39 DEFUN WHILE instead of DEFMACRO WHILE? 14:36:49 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-a1e370d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:37:11 nyef: I had the loop in the function and it didn't work 14:37:22 Peaker: Sure, but you did not answer my question. 14:38:04 tcr: ah, yeah, there are functions that are kept in place for backwards compatibility. There's also a deprecation pragma that warns users of those functions about it 14:38:54 Peaker: Control.OldException :( 14:38:54 Peaker: I know that. But how often is it done in practise? :) This particular case does not come up in Common Lisp which I regard as an advantage. 14:39:14 Peaker: And you asked about the advantages! 14:39:28 -!- MrSpec is now known as spec[away] 14:40:10 nikodemus`: You are right, after changing the name, it stop giving warnings 14:40:14 tcr: I don't think it happens a lot 14:40:18 yet, it still doesn't work 14:40:19 nurv101: the DEFUN there is definitely wrong, like nyef says. but look at the backtrace from your error: it comes from DECRYPT-ELGAMAL, not DECODE 14:40:37 jdz: Through code inlining, not-used multiple values may be arranged not to be evaluated at all by the compiler. 14:40:38 nurv101: Compare the result of (decode 0), (decode 25) and (decode 26). 14:40:44 -!- paper_cc [n=paper_cc@217.10.38.198] has left #lisp 14:40:45 Enlightenment should descend at that point. 14:41:14 tcr: Surely Lisp needs deprecated functions as well. Multi-return values cannot adapt all semantic changes to API's to be compatible with previous API's, but probably only a really tiny subset 14:41:19 tcr: implementation details :) 14:42:05 Peaker: how do you came to the conclusion to the "really tiny subset"? 14:42:08 Peaker: Of course! But it often happens that a function returns something, and to compute this something it has to manage additional ressource which later are considered worth to be returned as well. 14:42:20 jdz: because there are so many other possible semantic changes that don't involve returning new data 14:42:42 Peaker: You're not likely to change a function completely except for early development. 14:42:51 But you are likely to change it slightly 14:42:56 nikodemus`: That concatenate is after decode is called so it might be from that 14:42:59 tcr: slightly might mean removing a return value, too 14:43:04 tcr: or changing the type of returned values 14:43:12 tcr: or changing the types of args, or requiring a new arg, and so on 14:43:12 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:43:21 Your point? 14:43:28 does haskell have functions with optional parameters? 14:43:33 look at what static typing does to people. 14:43:47 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:43:51 You asked for advantages, I gave you one which I regard to be very valuable in practise. 14:43:54 tcr: That multi-return values only cover a small set of semantic changes to functions out of all possible ones 14:44:13 In my experience it is very handy, and I miss it in Haskell. 14:44:14 nurv101: It's because (digit-char 36 36) => nil. 14:44:37 But then perhaps not as much because programming in Haskell is different to programming in Lisp. 14:44:55 i'm not set up for x86/linux build right now: can someone else take care of that? 14:44:59 i have */darwin, x86-64/linux, and x86/windows covered 14:45:05 (or i suppose i could figure out what i need to install to be able to do the x86 build...) 14:45:16 jdz: what does it do to people? 14:45:24 nikodemus`: This is just a smoke test and not for release packaging, right? 14:45:35 damage? 14:45:41 nyef: I Hate that function! 14:45:44 Peaker: it damages their brain 14:45:58 Why in god's green earth there's not a int->char function!!! 14:46:07 nyef: release, release! 14:46:07 You mean code-char? 14:46:09 clhs code-char 14:46:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_code_c.htm 14:46:31 i do assume that we would have a report if x86 had been broken... 14:46:40 jdz: in what way? 14:46:41 Peaker: Multiple return values make perfect sense and are very handy in Lisp. My experience with Haskell is unfortunately not as much as to argue strongly, or in an educated way, about their lack in Haskell. 14:46:47 Peaker: in Haskell ther is no need for multiple return values. In common lisp it is a very nice and useful feature. is it so hard to understand? 14:47:11 and i did build it earlier this week, but my vhost cannot deal with it right now 14:47:45 jdz: I was wondering what the opinions about those 3 Lisp features were. I understood that multi-return-values has utility as a backwards-compatibility thing. Useful, but I think probably covers a small part of the problem 14:47:51 nyef: code-char == Segmentation Fault 14:47:51 in any case, it does no harm to anyone 14:47:52 I'm not really set up for a "true" x86 build, but I can do a smoke test easily enough. 14:47:55 jdz: not sure what the problem with that is, either 14:48:06 Peaker: you read what you want to read from what other people write. 14:48:19 (except PG probably gets upset about multiple-value-bind; I assume it's called 'm' or something in arc) 14:48:29 Peaker: the main utility for me is when you may not need all returned values 14:48:30 -!- johanbev [n=johanbev@230.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 14:48:32 Peaker: what you quoted is not what the original answer about multiple values said. 14:48:42 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:59 nevermind, i have it now 14:49:01 Peaker: consider function gethash, for instance. 14:49:04 stassats`: Sure but that's conveniently done in Haskell, and othe functional programming languages, by tuples and pattern matching 14:49:04 clhs gethash 14:49:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_gethas.htm 14:49:06 found a host that should be able to handle it 14:49:08 for example, TRUNCATE returns quotient and remainder, sometimes i need the first, sometimes the second 14:49:35 The nice thing about multiple values in Lisp is that you do _not_ need explicit destructuring 14:49:37 stassats`: yeah, but for that wouldn't it make more sense to be able to extract any values from a list that you want, easily? 14:49:55 Peaker: in most cases i would not need the second value from gethash. but if i expect my table to have nil values, i will want it. 14:50:07 Peaker: You can extract values from a list very conveniently in Lisp. Much more convenient than the pattern matching in Haskell allows. 14:50:09 stassats`: well, return both in a list and use car explicitly? 14:50:16 tcr: how so? 14:50:34 Peaker: that's my point, i don't want an explicit car 14:51:02 i use first value of truncate most of the time 14:51:03 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@43.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:51:11 Peaker: For example, you can destructure indenpendent on the position of the element in the list 14:51:18 <_3b> also, extracting values from a list implies a list had to be created somewhere 14:51:39 Peaker: multiple values are not difficult to use in CL. (defun f (x) (values (1+ x) (1- x) (unless (zerop x) (/ x)))) (assert (= 4 (f 3))) (multiple-value-bind (q d) (f 3) (assert (and (= q 4) (= d 2)))) (let (q d i) (multiple-value-setq (q d i) (f 3)) (assert (and (= q 4) (= d 2) (= 1/3 i)))) 14:51:40 stassats`: so why not have separate functions for the different semantics? divide and truncate=(. car divide) 14:51:46 Peaker: I.e. destructure by key 14:52:00 Peaker: because both resuts are produced by the same algorithm, implemented in silicium. 14:52:00 Peaker: because semantics is not different 14:52:17 Peaker: on a microprocessor, you cannot compute the division without computing the remainder and vice versa. 14:52:25 matimago: (mlutiple-value-bind ..) seems inconvenient to use, relatively to pattern-matching, though 14:52:38 stassats`: sure they are, one is a list, and one is a value 14:53:00 matimago: right, that's why you define truncate as (. car divide) (function composition) 14:53:07 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:53:12 Peaker: No, it's convenient. If a function returns four values, you can do (multiple-value-bind (a b) (foo ..) ...) and only the first two are used. 14:53:24 Peaker: I.e. you can add additional return values later on without having to modify this call site. 14:53:37 Peaker: no, i mean producing quotient and remainder don't have different semantics enough to separate them 14:53:49 tcr: in pattern-matching, you can also do: (a:b:xs) = someFunc -- to pattern match the first 2 and ignore the rest 14:53:59 And if you want only the nth value: (assert (= 1/3 (nth-value 2 (f 3))) 14:54:09 tcr: this is not common-place though because it means you get no compile-time verification of the call's validity 14:54:17 Peaker: I don't think lists are used as a substitute for multiple return values, but tuples. 14:54:35 tcr: right -- because you want to get a compile-time error if less values are returned than expected, not a run-time error 14:54:37 Peaker: And lists are polymorph to one type only 14:54:56 tcr: good point, you can instead use something like HLists and get all the advantages 14:54:57 So "you can do" is inaccurate 14:55:43 Now I do not know what HLists are, but I very well believe that there are many possibilities. Another question is actual practise, and convenience. 14:55:45 Peaker: note that nothing prevents you to use (compose car divide). CL is designed to allow implementers to provide easily good performance. Eg. multiple-values may be returned in registers instead of on the heap where a list would have to be allocated. 14:55:57 tcr: define a new tuple-like data type that is recursively defined, e.g: a :*: b :*: c == a :*: (b :*: c) and then you can use: (a :*: b :*: rest) = f x 14:56:09 What's your point? 14:56:25 tcr: pattern-matching does allow for the benefits 14:56:40 matimago: I'd hope an optimizer does this in a more general sense 14:56:43 nurv101` [n=nurv101@bl14-65-18.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:57:10 -!- nurv101` [n=nurv101@bl14-65-18.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 14:57:17 Peaker: well, I'm yet to meet a 'sufficiently smart compiler'... 14:57:34 Peaker: You can do a lot of things, that does not change the ease with which something can be done. 14:57:43 And people actually doing it 14:57:55 -!- free_thinker [n=willijar@134.151.144.246] has left #lisp 14:57:58 and the Language actually provide for it 14:58:12 *stassats`* imagines a SSC refusing to compile code "because it's too ugly" 14:58:20 -!- cracki [n=cracki@46-203.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 14:58:33 In addition to all the advantage Common Lisp and lisp in general have, one thing that is often unnoticed is that they offer all these advantages with a very good economy of means. 14:58:42 stassats`: perhaps that's a smartass compiler 14:58:48 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:58:51 Peaker: It seems to me you came here not to be enlighted on advantages but just to reassure your view of the world. 14:58:53 Sufficiently Smartass Compiler 14:58:55 i'd rather have a badass compiler :) 14:59:08 matimago: it doesn't require a "sufficiently smart compiler", it just requires a bit of inlining. It happens in ghc, I believe 14:59:09 *tcr* pulls out 14:59:16 Yep, one who literally throws nasal daemons! :-) 14:59:36 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:59:43 tcr: I think if someone changes the signature of a function that I use, I'd probably want to know and fix my code too. If I want to use the specific semantics of some version, then I depend on that specific version 14:59:49 Peaker: Haskell was invented thirty years after lisp. Ask yourself why? 15:00:10 matimago: because it requires significantly more knowledge of language design theory to design it? 15:00:15 Peaker: Changing the signature of a function does often not mean changing its semantics. 15:00:15 thirty years after lisp was discovered 15:00:17 Exactly. 15:00:28 Peaker: and if the semantics of a function does not change? but the additional return value provides some value (heh, pun) to some, but not all callers? 15:00:53 Peaker: And if you go down the line of "You can define that, or do that", well with enough macrology in Lisp, you can go a long way. 15:00:57 matimago: Yeah, that's why I asked if these old Lisp features are recognized as mistakes or still seen as positive features. I think the concensus in the Haskell world, for example, is that they are mistakes 15:01:05 stassats`: the INTERCAL compiler refuses to compile code if it is not polite enough; does that count? 15:01:22 *jdz* rolling on the floor laughing 15:01:25 jdz: then it can be provided as a new function, that only some should use 15:01:26 rsynnott: that's a step in the right direction 15:01:34 stassats`: DISCOVERED? Did he just find it somewhewrE? :) 15:01:49 rsynnott: in the air 15:01:59 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 15:02:01 Peaker: and then you end up with something like windows, which has functions like DoSomething, DoSomethingA, DoSomethingB, DoSomethingAEx 15:02:08 or, in the ether 15:02:20 Peaker: I don't think many have an accurate view. The modern functional programming language grew out of a subset of Lisp. 15:02:59 jdz: each of them with 15 parameters which must be produced by XORING together random constants 15:03:07 jdz: If you added a value that can be described as X, then your function which was called whatever, can be called whateverWithX, and not whateverEx32 15:03:15 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 15:03:16 -!- ASau [n=user@host60-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 15:03:24 Peaker: And sure they're improved immensely on that subset 15:03:37 i guess, dynamic typing is considered a mistake in the haskell world, but what does that mean 15:03:39 jdz: No, no... It's DoSomethingA, DoSomethingW, DoSomethingExA, and #ifdef UNICODE #define DoSomething DoSomethingA #else #define DoSometihng DoSomethingW #endif. 15:04:02 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:19 nyef: oh, I see the light. Static tying implemented by #ifdef 15:04:37 *typing even 15:04:39 Peaker: well, we could consider these features as low level tools. Notice that CL also includes eg. TAGBODY/GO. We don't consider it a mistake. Only a low level tool that may be used to implement some abstraction. 15:04:48 <_3b> isn't that more compilee-time dynamic typing? 15:05:08 And, in a few cases, #define DoSomething(a, b, c, d) DoSomethingEx(0, a, b, c, d). 15:05:18 tcr: anyhow, what about Lisp-2, don't you find "funcall", "flet" and various extra functions needed to deal with the multiple namespaces unnecessary complexity? Don't you find it confusing that relatively unnoticable differences in the position/surroundings of names makes them be interpreted completely differently? 15:05:26 (CreateWindow comes to mind here.) 15:05:27 Peaker: So if you need to speak of tuples in your program, you have a great range of ways to implement them, lists, vectors, multiple-values, whatever. 15:05:40 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:05:42 <_3b> Peaker: we like being able to call lists LIST 15:05:51 Peaker: Not at all. To the contrary. 15:05:56 Peaker: i hate calling my variables lst all the time in lisp-1 15:06:10 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:06:14 Peaker: usually, funcall makes those expressions more readable. If we really need to write expressions in Lisp-1, we have various macros to let us do so. 15:06:15 Peaker: I don't know about anyone else, but the rules for what's a variable and what's a function are simple, regular, and easily internalized. 15:06:24 HG` [n=wells@85.8.89.88] has joined #lisp 15:07:06 actually, multiply values, Lisp-2, and dynamic variables are some of the reasons i like CL 15:07:23 add conditions to it 15:07:42 "If you want Scheme, you know where to find it." 15:07:42 well, i like CLOS too 15:08:09 let's now talk with Peaker about condition system available in Haskell 15:08:26 Multiple namespaces works for me. For example, when I write a function that operates on a list, I can actually name the argument to the function... list. 15:08:30 Peaker: I even like the syntactic differentiation (a reason why I also use #'(lambda ...) rather than just (lambda ...)), because passing functions means passing control flow, rather than data flow 15:09:13 tcr: sometimes I even write (character "a") instead of #@ 15:09:15 #\a 15:09:17 tcr: Heretic! I like (lambda () ...) 15:09:31 there can't be reasonable arguments on (lambda ..) vs #'(lambda ..) 15:09:39 matimago: You, Sir, are weird! :) 15:09:44 Aaah! The roundness and smoothness of those parentheses! :-) 15:09:56 besides, i like to type less 15:10:31 My eyes are trained at recognizing #'... as passing control flow down another function. That's the reason why I prefer it. 15:10:57 Peaker: the culture and values behind CL and among the people who use it are vastly different from those behind haskell which are also different from those behind ocaml. 15:11:16 *meingbg* wants lisp-1 when dealing with lisp-2, but probably couldn't stand lisp-1c if he got it. 15:11:33 s/1c/1/ 15:11:41 in a new lisp, I would like: A) standard case-sensitivity (or a package key that makes the package case-sensitive), B) finalizing of CLOS worlds, as to disable the looking up of which function needs to be called when. C) decent stepping through functions (like eclipse does in java). D) standardized networking and threading support E) simpler way to communicate with shells and unix-like filesystems. F) An easy-to-understand spec like the 15:11:41 java API. G) A distributed package system. As all these things can be written in the current lisp, I see little reason for a new one 15:12:01 I like Lisp2: (code-char char-code) ftw! 15:12:18 madnificent: Item C is an environmental issue, not a language standardization issue. 15:12:42 oh, i also like having "-" in the names 15:12:45 nyef: all of them are :) 15:12:58 mikezor [n=mikael@c-a1e370d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:13:05 madnificent: Not if you want actual standardization. 15:13:23 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-88-17.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:14:12 i had an issue with case-sensitive only once, when translating some algorithm, which used both p and P 15:14:21 nyef: most of it shouldn't be officially standardised, I guess 15:14:48 stassats`: otoh, you could have used e^2pik/n without any issue. 15:15:03 having case-sensitivity could make the translation to other systems easier. IMHO parenscript can be a mess for instance... having case sensitivity could make it easier to understand (and keep it just as easy to integrate) 15:15:35 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:15:39 um, I will just point out that packages are already case sensitive, and the reader is programmable to do Mostly the Right Thing 15:15:44 I'm baffled by the case sensitivity issue. We don't use camelcase in lisp, I don't type with the caps lock on, everything is in lowercase. What's the issue? 15:15:49 :invert is there... 15:15:55 Xof: yes it is 15:15:57 Peaker: lisp is for hackers. It is a hackable language. "Duality of Syntax" is intentionally designed in it so that we can hack it. Haskell is for correctness and purity, "duality of syntax" is regarded as a bug. 15:17:07 Okay, so everything gets upcased internally, that doesn't effect me. I still don't see the issue. 15:17:10 tmh: AFAICT, it's for easier interfacing to stuff written in other languages. 15:17:31 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 15:17:32 right, what is actually wanted is a lisp system in which standard symbol names are lowercase 15:17:35 pkhuong: i translated without understanding what it actually does, so not to make a mistake preserving same variable names was a good thing 15:17:38 #'(lambda ... ) vs. (lambda ... ) has always been somewhat opaque to me. 15:18:01 But as soon as you :use the other package, you now have case sensitivity as a wierd -symbol- property. 15:18:02 tmh: backwards compatibility 15:18:10 tmh: connecting to other languages is... for instance parenscript and postmodern have functions to translate foo-bar to fooBar... it just isn't as nice in each case. Allso, if we have a way to talk about it correctly (everything lowercase), then I don't see why we shouldn't use it. code containing both FOO and foo is a mess anyways 15:18:41 that you want is a hook into the package system, so that (intern x :foocl) becomes (intern (string-upcase x) :cl), maybe? 15:19:01 (It's not a package property at that point, as it's been interned in a package that mixes case-sensitive symbols and case-insensitive symbols.) 15:19:12 not that i particularly advocate that :) 15:19:13 Well, I can see those points. I didn't realize them because I've not had to deal with those issues. 15:19:38 in sbcl, can *muffled-warnings* take more than one value (i can't figure out how, if so) 15:19:40 *nyef* mostly doesn't have a problem with |fooBar|. 15:19:54 jleija: so "hacking" is writing code in a way that is difficult to verify the correctness of? 15:20:01 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:13 harf 15:20:23 -!- jho [n=jh@unaffiliated/cene] has quit [No route to host] 15:20:45 Peaker: It is difficult to verify the correctness of any non-trivial body of code. 15:20:46 you can't verify the correctness of all code anyway, i prefer all or nothing 15:21:04 roconnor [n=roconnor@69-196-141-93.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:08 now that's a statement i don't agree with either 15:21:13 Peaker: Static type system smugness alarm! But yeah I actually agree with this if you add "in a most fun way" 15:21:22 tmh: some aspects of correctness are easily verifiable 15:21:25 verification is good, obviously 15:21:46 Peaker: If you want correctness, check out http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~moore/acl2/ . By the way, it is implemented in... Common Lisp. 15:21:55 Peaker: i don't know. What I meant is that you can modify the language itself to make it look/use the way you want it. Like creating dsls, for example. But it goes beyond that. I think it is more pragmatic in nature. Now correctness might be more difficult to check with all the extra flexibility. 15:22:02 stassats`: You can verify all correctness w.r.t some spec, with dependent types. Of course the spec may be wrong 15:22:12 but as long as there are correct program that cannot be verified _requiring_ verification for a program to compile is just wrong 15:22:16 Peaker: i was semi-joking 15:22:45 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-71-197-180-162.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:18 and verification is not really usefull when you are working with an incomplete program: you _know_ it isn't complete or correct, but you if you want to work on part X you should not be forced for other parts to be right at the point 15:23:56 can we actually have a discussion that is somehow related to lisp? 15:23:56 nikodemus`: you can use explicit bottoms for those cases in a static-type language 15:24:00 nikodemus`: sort of equivalent to casts 15:24:03 Peaker: Haskell kind of invite you to write things in an easy-verifyable, correct way. Lisp steps back, and let's you do your thing your way, if that's not good when it comes to the end of the road, then blame yourself. The other extreme would be Java... 15:24:07 nikodemus`: Epigram, which is a mix of a programming language and a theorem prover, basically, using dependent types, can type check incrementally. 15:24:18 ok, that's cool 15:24:36 meingbg: I'd say Java is not at the other extreme at all -- Dependently-typed languages are at the extreme. Java has less type safety than Haskell, not more 15:24:47 meingbg: and indeed, I'd love to see dependently-typed languages flourish 15:24:53 Peaker: also check the Qi programming language. It has an excellent type system and you don't loose lisp macros. 15:24:54 you can put stuff in [ ... ] to say, "skip that", though I do not know the details, and what "skip that" really means 15:24:54 but still, if you're writing a lisp with a fancy type system, i can see how this is on topic -- if not... 15:25:16 Peaker: A dependent-type language is very akin to Lisp again. 15:25:34 Okay, for a question relevant to lisp, is it normal to see "Unhandled error: swap-lispobjs.impure.lisp" in the test suite output for SBCL? 15:25:46 nope 15:25:53 jleija: I think the syntactic-level is the wrong level to implement most features -- I asked for many examples of interesting things to do with macros, and all of them have simpler non-macro solutions in all languages I know about 15:25:53 where is that? 15:26:03 jleija: s/know about/like :) 15:26:12 Peaker: Basically you're trying to have restrained, but arbitrary computation done at compile-time. In Lisp you have that, though totally unrestricted. 15:26:17 lisp is a strongly typed language... can't you extend clos to enforce static typing? 15:26:19 tcr: Lisp is pretty much untyped, how is a dependent-type lisp again? 15:26:21 I'll have a paste once I finish running the test suite for another build (collecting baselines). 15:26:24 ok, /ignore time 15:26:53 tcr: Dependent-types is not about arbitrary computation at compile-time, its about proving more properties of the runtime in the types of the program. The compile-time type checker does not necessarily have to be turing complete at all 15:27:48 nyef: with 1.0.29? 15:27:53 Yeah. 15:27:59 Peaker: we are not against proving things about our programs. We're just against linking those proofs with compilation time. 15:28:21 nyef pasted "SBCL 1.0.29 Test Failues" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81357 15:28:22 matimago: Don't you see the appeal of proof-carrying-code? 15:28:26 Peaker: I'm not good at articulating it, but "programming" dependent types means programming in a very weird restrained language at compile-time 15:28:32 matimago: especially when you can, whenever you want, "escape" the mechanism 15:28:52 Peaker: if you would provide an independent tool doing static analysis, proving lisp programs or detecting bugs without (or even with) running the programs, we'd be happy and thankful. 15:28:52 tcr: What dependent type languages did you try programming in? 15:28:58 Peaker: Right, I was more hinting that Java doesn't let you do things "your" way, unless you happen to think in java. Easy-verifyable-ness kind of is a product of modularity. Haskell strongly invites modularity in the form of small functions. Lisp, with the macro system, enables (not necessarily invites) you to use modularity in many different dimensions, there is no problem getting aspect-orientation in Lisp, for example. 15:29:14 meingbg: Haskell is far more multi-paradigm than Java 15:29:19 Peaker: I read the Epigram paper. 15:29:26 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@194.109.21.3] has quit ["..."] 15:29:43 Well, I'd see proof-carrying-code as an end-product, really. 15:29:47 Peaker: arguably incorrect, as haskell doesn't do everything java does (and vice-versa) 15:29:48 meingbg: Haskell invites modularity in the form of monads, monad transformers, laziness, etc, too 15:29:52 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:30:09 Peaker: Yes, I cherish Haskell far above Java. 15:30:12 nyef: threads or no? 15:30:22 No c-t-f. 15:30:33 madnificent: Haskell can probably do everything Java does. Java can probably be implemented as a Haskell DSL (modulu syntactic trivial differences) 15:30:37 naunsins [i=charles_@120.138.100.36] has joined #lisp 15:30:41 Peaker: do you have a practical example of a type-safe, verifiable program? say, a network protocol implementation? 15:31:00 madnificent: C and BASIC were implemented as Haskell DSL's by Augustusson, to prove the concept 15:31:01 Umm... Actually, I'm going to need to re-build and re-try. There's some obvious CFLAGS lossage involved. 15:31:17 First you'd need a formal network protocol specification. 15:31:18 hypno: basically all Haskell programs -- or do you mean more aspects of correctness being verified? 15:31:35 Formal specifications are even harder to find than proved programs... 15:31:41 dys` [n=andreas@p5B315853.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:43 Oh, for the love of... 15:32:10 matimago: I don't claim dependent types are commonplace and practical just yet, and I hope that they are in the future 15:32:19 Okay, swap-lispobjs is failing because it calls out to the compiler, and there's no easy way to add extra CLFAGS without hacking the source. 15:32:29 Peaker: for instance haskell doesn't easily allow you to put variables in n object (and mutate them with all the horrible consequences). I am *not* going to discuss this with a fanboy (just as I wouldn't defend Haskell to a Java fanboy). Both languages can do anything a Turing machine can, so they can both tackle the same problems -end- 15:32:42 Peaker: I also hoped for, twenty years ago. It probably won't happen before strong AI. 15:33:12 madnificent: Haskell discovered the monad abstraction that does make all those things easy 15:33:14 I imagine that this test would fail on win32 as well, due to symlink issues. 15:33:51 ok, so ugliness but false alarm 15:33:57 Yeah, false alarm. 15:33:58 matimago: I am more optimistic, especially after seeing some proven code in Agda 15:34:22 ...and what language discovered Haskell? Lisp, the topic of this channel. 15:34:22 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068087168.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:45 drewc: Lisp discovered Haskell? :-) 15:34:56 has anyone tried out lispbuilder-sdl under mac? 15:35:26 why does #lisp get this all the time? why don't these people go pester smalltalkers, or better yet, C folks 15:35:33 Peaker: sure, why not... lets talk about lisp. 15:35:33 nikodemus`: Looks like a bug with the transform for FILL of complex single floats: single-float-bits is negative when the float is negative. I can't seem to find the part that transforms FILLs into UB64-BASH-FILL. 15:36:00 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit ["leaving"] 15:36:03 it's in the FILL transform 15:36:03 nikodemus`: because we can understand these arguments. Cers wouldn't. 15:36:11 pkhuong: do you have a test case i can try? 15:36:40 fill transform for vectors, that is 15:36:46 Peaker: maybe. It might be just an intrinsic kind of thing. Where I "like" this and you "like" that. But I do see many advantages in the combined flexibility of macros and a live vm/compiler that takes metaprogramming to the next level. Basically if your problem is big enough to deserve its own DSL, Lisp is the way to go. You give the user your own language in their own dsl and it gets compiled on the fly within their apps. This I haven't seen 15:37:10 nikodemus`: (lambda () (make-array 2 :element-type '(complex single-float) :initial-element #c(-2.0 -2.0))) 15:37:22 jleija: Haskell has DSL's too, in the form of combinators 15:37:22 thanks 15:37:38 jleija: http://augustss.blogspot.com/ -- implementation of BASIC as a DSL on top of Haskell 15:37:49 Peaker: ok, I'll bite. Yes, you can do those things with monads. No, it isn't the same thing. The syntax is radically different and the total effect ends up to be 'different' than java. Harder? Maybe, maybe not... just not the same. Having a purely functional language can become a pain from time to time (ending up in monads and never getting out) and it can be fun. I don't like to discuss this with a fanboy, as fanboys tend to 15:37:49 know the language of their choice better than I do (with java it is not always the case) and thus will 'know' they are right only because of the knowledge they have. Feel free to implement whatever you want in lisp to make it as good as your uber-haskell 15:37:56 (I was hit by the same bug with packed complexes... and then an endian-ness bug ;) 15:37:57 i get #(#C(-2.0 -2.0) #C(-2.0 -2.0)) 15:38:00 Parker: but not a live vm AFAIK 15:38:10 what are you running on? 15:39:19 madnificent: Claiming that creating and mutating a reference in Haskell is difficult is simply wrong, though -- its just marked as non-pure code. Haskell has the motto of being "The world's best imperative language" :-) 15:39:26 Peaker: allso: any language has DSL's... it is simply how you need to write time. I created DSL's in Java too... creating the same DSL will be way easier/shorter/more flexible in lisp, but it is possible. 15:39:32 jleija: what does a live VM give you? 15:39:47 *drewc* gets out his topic enforcement stick 15:39:49 madnificent: well, Java's syntax is too rigid for DSL's to be useful. 15:39:52 Peaker: sadly, the motto doesn't save the day... it is still a pita :) (with all do respect) 15:39:55 1.0.28.70 15:40:03 madnificent: Why do you think it is a PITA? 15:40:19 drewc: meta programming is on topic. Anything DSL. 15:40:22 ah, i see it on 64 bits... 15:40:37 Tweaker... oops, I meant Peaker, why are you here? We're here because we like and use lisp. I'm interested in other languages too, but at the moment I'm spending my time with lisp. What are you doing? 15:40:39 madnificent: In Java you cannot add continuations to the language as a library, as you can with Haskell, for example 15:40:40 right, that'd only be for 64 bit fills. 15:40:59 I seem to recall that a nick of Peaker has previously been banned here 15:41:01 Peaker: sure you can add continuations as a library if you restrict the continuations to a monads DSL. 15:41:08 tmh: I got sucked into a discussion, after I just wanted to know if some Lisp design choices are now considered a mistake or not, as I believe they are mistakes 15:41:10 I'm just saying 15:41:27 Xof: I was never banned here, and I think I owned the nick since forever, but feel free 15:41:32 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.116.176] has joined #lisp 15:41:38 Peaker: because I remember trying to use it, and ended up throwing all code away... Could be that I'm simply more familiar with lisp/java/ruby/... could be anything... in the end, I remember not liking it... again: you are free to like it, but let others like other things (and if you are going to be a pita in #lisp, please just implement the features you want in lisp and be done with it) 15:42:05 pkhuong: You get the continuations not only in its "own" monad, but you can add these continuations to any other monad, combining monads to form whatever language you want 15:42:20 Peaker: and WOW... calm down, I'm not defending Java as a good language! I'd pick haskell over java :P ;) 15:42:27 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-71-197-180-162.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:42:54 madnificent: I know, but I'm trying to explain that the DSL difference between Haskell and Java is a qualitative one, and not a quantitative one 15:42:59 Peaker: I'm fairly certain I have a decent grasp of how monads and monad transformers work. 15:43:03 are there logs I can read? 15:43:09 Peaker: user code/configuration/dsl can be compiled to machine code (I mean fast code) and if it represents a bunch of computations, you got something flexible and fast at the same time. For example. Also, on-the-fly hot-patching. For example. 15:43:11 Peaker: I chose Java, as you too should know that it has many many limitations... but you should realize too, that each way of working has its good and bad sides... 15:43:12 minion: tell roconnor about logs 15:43:12 roconnor: please see logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 15:43:24 thx 15:43:33 yrwlcm 15:43:50 jleija: that's indeed cool - I wonder how it compares to DSL's as a library compiling, with pragma rewrite rules 15:44:05 Peaker: we basically translated basic structures to objects which could be combined in Java. Yes it was a pain to write, no it wasn't complicated to use (in fact, it was really really handy due to the flexible (and different) syntaxes we could provide) 15:44:18 -!- naunsins [i=charles_@120.138.100.36] has left #lisp 15:44:37 madnificent: how do you provide multiple synaxes in Java? 15:44:38 Peaker: We all have different ideas about design mistakes in lisp. But the more I've used lisp, I've discovered that (1) I thought it was a design mistake because I didn't understand all of the constraints or (2) yeah, it's not the best, but given the constraints it'll do. 15:45:05 Peaker: lisp is -for everything I tried- by far the easiest language to create DSLs in (now don't go asking me to redo them in haskell and figure out the problems, as I couldn't care less). That is only the experience of one man in #lisp, but it's better than none 15:45:44 Peaker: Furthermore, you're free to fork any open source lisp implementation and fix the design mistakes or even just write your language on top of CL instead of griping about what exisits. 15:46:03 Peaker: as I said, you combine objects. You create objects which have functions and just throw their names around. That way you can represent everything that has a . form, and anything that needs to accept arguments (just accept a variable length list of objects if you can't enforce anything better) 15:46:05 madnificent: Its probably a learning curve thing, in both sides. I had a hard time trying to learn to use CL macros, with the kinky syntax. I suppose you had a hard time learning how to create monad transformers 15:46:23 no, I found monads to be quite cool... 15:46:32 but I'm a lisper... it is clearer for me 15:46:42 man ... no wonder they troll us... we feed them well. 15:46:47 the idea of a monad is a good onoe :) 15:47:11 nikodemus`: yup. (logior (ash (single-float-bits (imagpart item)) 32) (ldb (byte 32 0) (s-f-bits (realpart item))) (: 15:47:21 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 15:47:31 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [No route to host] 15:48:02 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:48:27 well, anyway, sorry for dragging the discussion away from Lisp proper. Its hard to resist discussion when offered dissenting opinions :) 15:48:27 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:49:27 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B31759B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:50:56 Peaker: you should be a aware, that when you enter a channel named #some-language, and you start defending some-other-language, that there will be many many points which you would want to defend. You should allso be aware that if you'd really want to know which is best, you'd have to find those people that are in #some-language and #some-other-language as you'll probably be able to defend #some-other-language in the #your-language 15:50:56 channel (due to lack of experience). I can only advise you to dive deep (very deep) into lisp, as it really is a gem... I'm glad haskell exists and I'm glad to have been exposed to it in the past 15:51:08 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 15:51:11 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:22 Peaker: now create your own lisp and show us how much better it is :D 15:51:31 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:52:06 also: vim vs emacs, marvel vs dc ;-) 15:52:14 capcom vs street fighter? 15:52:17 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslq091.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:52:17 madnificent: I've been exposed to Lisp but I never really got around to using it for anything real (besides Elisp which is horrible) 15:53:32 Sharapova -vs- Kournikova 15:53:41 red vs blue? 15:53:43 tmh: ouch! 15:54:09 madnificent: Does CL have a free interactive shell implementation, with stack trace errors and other newbie-friendly features (ala Python)? 15:54:34 Peaker: you're talking about something like bpython? 15:54:40 clisp?... but i'd go sbcl+slime any time 15:54:52 or ccl+slime 15:54:59 madnificent: what's bpython? 15:55:10 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068087168.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:55:23 madnificent: I think one of the best things about Python is its newbie accessibility. Type "python" and start toying around. The error messages are great for newbies, stack traces and all 15:55:25 Peaker: sbcl + slime gives you a fairly nice experience... it is emacs style so it newbie-friendly depends greatly on what you're used to... 15:55:31 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs181130081.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:55:31 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181130081.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:55:35 madnificent: I am wondering if CL has something like that as well 15:55:43 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068087168.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:59 Peaker: the repl allows you to enter whatever you want... restarts help you around on strange cases... sbcl gives hints about what you've done wrong... 15:56:01 stack traces lol .. i'd much rather be dropped into the interactive debugger. 15:56:12 of course I manage to crash emacs after defending. its a fickle lover. 15:56:18 any respectable lisp newbie knows about slime 15:56:31 pkhuong: feh 15:56:42 don't know if that is newbie-friendly enough, as you might get overwelmed... but in essence, the debugger shows you the live stack upon an error, and you can inspect/modify it 15:56:48 doesn't gigamonkey mention slime in pcl? 15:56:51 so, what shall we do? i've already tagged the release... 15:56:58 drewc: he did 15:57:14 drewc: Python lets you drop into the interactive debugger too, if you want, retro-actively even 15:57:16 minion: tell Peaker about that-dead-sexy-book 15:57:17 Peaker: look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 15:57:25 Peaker: problem is, I don't have the faintest idea what modern newbies tend to like... with you knowing elisp, I guess you use emacs... so I guess you could fall in love with slime 15:57:30 nikodemus: Celebrate it as the buggiest release since 1.0? 15:57:53 one thing I wish was plastered all over the newbie areas is (declare (optimize (debug 3))) It took me a long time to find this, and it totally changed debugging in lisp for me 15:58:18 debug 2 should be enough 15:58:30 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:58:52 "it's not like anyone used specialized arrays of complex single floats on 64 bit platforms anyways..." ? 15:59:03 stassats`: did not know that. But I think the point still stands. The debugger in lisp becomes much more useful after you kick up the debug level 15:59:12 Peaker: almost every lisp implementation i've ever used provides a REPL, which is an interactive shell to the live lisp system. I suggest you try one, and then install SLIME, which is more powerful that a text based console by far. 15:59:14 nikodemus: complex floats will be bugged up next week anyway ;) 15:59:15 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@173-9-20-27-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 15:59:32 dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 15:59:41 mcspiff: with debug 3 you can encounter some other consequences, like not doing TCO, etc. 16:00:03 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:00:07 stassats`: ha you know i think i hit that last night? where were you then ;-) (the tco case) 16:00:17 drewc: SLIME is basically an emacs mode for lisp editing, right? 16:00:59 minion: tell Peaker about slime 16:00:59 Peaker: direct your attention towards slime: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/slime 16:01:05 Peaker: there's a lot more icing on the cake... 16:01:09 elias` [n=me@host86-141-109-194.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:01:10 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:01:16 Peaker: http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov gives a great over view of what makes slime different (in my opinion) 16:01:22 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:31 oh well, i'll just finish things and update the webpage 16:01:53 mcspiff: thanks 16:02:13 i'm currently building .29 .. you guys talking about a problem on 64-bit machines? 16:02:27 (..i'm running 32-bit here, so ..) 16:02:33 Peaker: its a little on the long side, but he starts out explaining how to use slime on a remote machine. useful, but probably not overly relevant for you 16:02:56 Peaker: so its probably safe to skip, unless that interests you (great for doing web work for example) 16:03:11 lnostdal: 64 bit only, right. 16:03:15 Peaker: Long time no see. :) 16:03:21 Peaker: whatever mcspiff tells you, as you're interested in comparing a bit... seeing what is possible, it shows you some of the sweet stuff... you'll be happy to see this (for you, it should be time well-spent) 16:03:22 ok, pkhuong 16:03:22 bob_f: hey 16:03:46 Peaker: bpython's the fancy curses Python repl I wrote. 16:03:55 Peaker: How come you don't hang out with us in #python anymore ? 16:04:25 bob_f: We're sexier 16:04:40 dysinger [n=tim@12.35.79.2] has joined #lisp 16:04:43 bob_f: I've pretty much abandoned Python for Haskell now 16:04:43 Sorry, I meant sexpr 16:05:05 bob_f: I still use the REPL a bit, because I'm still more comfortable with it than with ghci 16:05:15 madnificent: on #lisp, I just like to get the point across that I really have no idea what im talking about ;-). The remote workflow is what really sold me on slime being special, that and the crossrefs. 16:05:21 Peaker: Heh, fair enough. Well feel free to pop back and lecture us on capabilities and cyclic reference detection. :) 16:05:38 bob_f: heh, thanks 16:06:06 mcspiff: problem with #lisp seems to be, that there is always someone that knows more :D (good to link to that video btw) 16:06:23 madnificent: This is a -problem-? 16:06:52 madnificent: thats my favourite part 16:06:58 nyef: if you don't want to feel stupid every time you whish to say something... it can be :) (no, it really is good) 16:07:46 minion: memo for antifuchs: would it be easy for you to have a git mirror for sbcl-page cvs module as well? 16:07:46 Remembered. I'll tell antifuchs when he/she/it next speaks. 16:09:16 I figure theres a fair trade off. I ask a question, nyef looks at me like im crazy, and then saves me about 3 hours of work linking me to the clhs page for a function that does exactly what I want. Its a good system. 16:09:49 milanj [n=milan@77.46.250.84] has joined #lisp 16:10:36 mcspiff: yeah, it's fun to be/read/lurk here 16:10:46 -!- reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:12:04 great. News at 11: performance of intel uarchs still uncomprehensible. 16:13:18 pkhuong: are you referring to the latest greatest? 16:13:34 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:13:35 core 2. Haven't had the chance to play with nehalems yet. 16:14:11 Hrm... Maybe discovering the performance rules could be treated as a machine-learning problem? 16:14:17 somebody claimed that the nehalems are saner in this regard 16:14:33 nyef: some french researchers are doing that for GCC ;) 16:14:38 Cool! 16:15:01 pkhuong: core 2 in 64bit? 16:15:04 madnificent: problem is, more you learn, more you want to learn. Im trying to make time now for PAIP but who knows when ill get to that 16:15:11 p_l: yes 16:15:23 which reminds me: linus wins for sanity again! 16:15:45 pkhuong: Could it be related to C2 microcoding around lack of certain functional units and instructions from amd64? 16:16:18 p_l: it's probably the slow shift/rolls and GPR->XMM conversion. 16:16:26 *madnificent* wants time/energy to finish his object<->database connection 16:16:38 pkhuong: I recall something being mentioned on something like that happening in C2, slowing down various stuff that works much faster on amd 16:16:38 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:39 which will be taken care of with inline constants. 16:17:55 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:12 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:18:27 MrPat [n=MrPat@dhcp-pa-67-20-227-48.consolidated.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:07 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:19:49 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:23:19 are there any lisp libraries to create barcodes? 16:27:30 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:27:44 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 16:29:36 mrscheme [n=user@67.110.140.180.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:05 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-2f1d9a1a6d9cd2dd] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:33:46 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@193.157.244.15] has quit [Client Quit] 16:38:17 phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 16:38:30 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 16:38:35 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-3-163.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:38:51 -!- ceineke_ [n=chris@dhcp-0-24-1-2b-fc-77.cpe.cabletv.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:03 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:43:52 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [] 16:45:14 madnificent: Even if there aren't, I can't imagine that it's a hard problem. 16:45:27 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 16:46:00 madnificent: There's some code about barcode format in RWH, remaking it into barcode generation code in CL shouldn't be hard... :P 16:46:31 nyef: no, I was just hoping on some hints (don't know if there are standard libraries (even outside of lisp) for this) 16:46:34 p_l: RWH? 16:46:36 "RWH"? 16:46:50 Real World Haskell 16:46:59 Ah. 16:47:00 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:03 nyef: the big bad book haskellers use to take new acolytes 16:47:05 -!- mega1 [n=mega@pool-02149.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:47:48 p_1: I vaguely recall they do a bar code reader in RWH. 16:47:53 saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 16:47:59 which is a bit more difficult than a bar code writer I imagine 16:48:50 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:49:35 saikat__ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 16:50:08 roconnor: yes, but it also means that there's ready explanation on how barcode is encoded graphically 16:50:22 if there isn't a lisp library or some decent external library (but I think ruby has one), then I might as well read the spec and draw it myself with vecto 16:50:26 true 16:51:57 obviously i still suck at release engineering 16:52:28 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.116.176] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:52:36 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:53:04 willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:53:14 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:58 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:54:18 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 16:54:26 Have we ever had a good release after extending the freeze period? 16:54:33 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 16:54:43 I seem to recall the last time we had a long freeze was 1.0. 16:54:46 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:55:28 -!- phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 16:55:42 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 17:01:13 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:04:18 jmbr [n=jmbr@43.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:04:30 -!- Peaker [n=Peaker@87.69.176.150] has left #lisp 17:04:36 I'm wondering: I'm making a simple game to experiment with some AI and my playfield is basicly a 2dim array 17:05:07 how do you create a simple structure for it 17:05:14 With make-array? 17:05:17 make-array 17:05:18 Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.163.100.126] has joined #lisp 17:05:20 natch 17:05:37 but I want to have a "playfield-type" 17:05:43 so I want to make it with defstruct 17:05:50 use a class definition 17:06:02 get the accessors for free. 17:06:04 can you overwrite the defstruct constructor? 17:06:04 :) 17:06:12 and the accounting. 17:06:18 colton [n=colton@ip72-220-44-155.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:20 as I want to create it with (make-playfield width height) 17:06:27 PissedNumlock: yeah, :constructor option, i believe 17:06:27 and with defstruct I'd have to pass an array 17:06:31 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-53-146.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:06:55 a CLOSS class is the way to go. 17:06:58 -S 17:07:08 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:07:27 k though so, just wanted to know if there was another way :) 17:07:29 thought* 17:07:57 you could use defstruct, but you're going to have to recreate a lot of the book keeping that clos does for you, so you may as well save yourself the time. 17:08:19 and do you make a constructor for it or do you actually use make-instance 'playfield through the rest of your code? 17:08:39 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-173-76-163-72.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:44 well, if that bothers you, you could define a macro that wrapped up the make-instance form. 17:08:45 -!- m4thias` [n=user@75.84-48-87.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:05 I'm just wondering what the common lisp-style is 17:09:07 also override initialize-instance 17:09:34 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:10:05 Fade: a macro? 17:10:38 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 17:10:49 stassats`: as illustrated by gigamonkey in PCL for its id3 reader. 17:10:58 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:11:32 -!- Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.163.100.126] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:11:53 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Client Quit] 17:13:00 i don't see a make-instance wrapped inside a macro there 17:13:08 bzwahr [n=user@bloc-bzwahr-lap.tamu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:13:31 I'd expect to see a make-instance wrapped inside a function more often than inside a macro. 17:14:09 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:35 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-4b2e7c737e633106] has joined #lisp 17:19:33 eurgh. misremembered. the macro encapsulates a defclass and a couple of generic funcs. 17:19:41 Isn't the stack nothing more than a contiguous array of data which the esp register keeps track of? In this case, couldn't you, instead of 'pushing' and 'popping' data, coulnd't you just create any array of data, and reference the data you place on it and the effect would be the same? 17:20:08 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.100.126] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:21:25 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:28 (defclass playfield () ((array :reader array-of))) (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((playfield playfield) &key width height) (setf (slot-value playfield 'array) (make-array (list width height)))) 17:22:18 error checking left as an excercise. though if you have nothing else in the playfied but the array, i'd not encapsulate it in anything 17:22:45 to paraphrase freud, "sometimes an array is just an array" 17:22:48 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-18-236.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:22:49 colton: Your hidden premises include that you are discussing an x86 system, that there is only one stack, and that the stack is being maintained via the dedicated stack instructions provided by the architecture. As for your question, what do you think stack frames are? 17:27:09 well, that's the release mostly fixed 17:27:38 i hope 17:28:45 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:31:46 jho [n=jh@unaffiliated/cene] has joined #lisp 17:32:35 nyef: there might also be a blindness to recursion. 17:33:23 Could be a restricted domain, or there not being any variable allocations involved. 17:33:38 (Which would allow frame pointer elision.) 17:34:04 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:34:11 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:34:16 -!- jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:34:20 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:36 jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has joined #lisp 17:35:38 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:43 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:39:27 i included a hotpatch for the fill bug in release files 17:40:15 time for KNOWN_ISSUES file 17:41:03 stassats`: Wouldn't help, we'd keep it in source control, after all... 17:43:16 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-76.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 17:43:35 hello 17:45:22 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 17:46:02 If we're to support (expt -1 integer) specially, wouldn't (if (evenp integer) 1 -1) be better as (1- (* 2 (logand integer 1)))? 17:46:49 pkhuong: better as in less operations? 17:47:29 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 17:48:06 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:48:07 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Argueing online is like going to the special olympics; even if you win, you're still a retard."] 17:48:24 tmh: better as in preferable. 17:48:55 pkhuong: I get the reverse sign when I use the latter form. 17:49:11 pkhuong: if it generates better code, why not 17:49:15 where can i download the hyperspec 17:50:06 from lispworks.com 17:50:33 nikodemus: since this release might be the buggiest since 1.0, perhaps we should extend the freeze, fix the bugs and release it as 1.1! 17:50:33 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:50:51 I'm having problems getting &rest and &key to play nicely. Is there a trick to it? I can lisppaste if need be 17:51:08 slyrus_: too late, sent mail to sbcl-announce already :) 17:51:10 bzwahr: &rest before &key. 17:51:15 pkhuong: I prefer the former form because its purpose is more explicit to me. 17:51:23 nyef: I know that much 17:51:33 bzwahr: And the key args show up in the rest list. 17:51:51 hm 17:51:52 stassats`: i cannot reach lispworks atm :/ 17:52:05 stassats`: nevermind 17:52:31 well, I'm not even calling the key argument, I'm trying to let it set default 17:52:31 And unless you have allow-other-keys, all the values passed must be valid when interpreted as key args. 17:52:41 Hmm, lispworks website is down. 17:52:47 nikodemus: ok. so we could still do a longer freeze before the next release and call that 1.1. just a thought. it seems that a lot has changed and it would be nice to recognize those changes in such a way that folks are motivated to upgrade. 17:52:51 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:54 well, except that it was stuck in the moderation queue 17:52:57 maybe I need allow-other-keys then 17:52:59 And I think the even-number-of-key-args restriction might still apply. Not sure about that. 17:53:26 slyrus_: not impossible. there are a couple of things i'd like to see in 1.1, though -- but in all honesty they can equally well be the signposts for 1.2 17:53:38 Really, though, if you're having trouble with this then you probably shouldn't be doing it. There's a specific use-case for combining &rest and &key. 17:53:47 (exporting the callback api, and doing external formats properly being those two) 17:54:00 Oh, -please- do the external formats properly. Please. 17:54:03 nyef: what I really think is happening is that in my macro expansion, some statements are getting evaulated/looked at differently when using key than when not using key 17:54:09 properly meaning support for newline poslicies and byte-order marks 17:54:24 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.116.176] has joined #lisp 17:54:27 nikodemus: those do sound nice, but, as you said, might be nice for 1.2... 17:54:33 nikodemus: Newline policies alone would make my day. 17:54:58 bzwahr: Wait, is this in a macro parameter list? 17:55:11 Newline policy: Newlines have been banned by the Geneva Convention. All data will now be stored in fixed-size record formats encoded in EBCDIC. Please update your programs. 17:55:41 nyef: yes, though it seems that allow-other-keys may have fixed my issue. 17:55:50 i have maybe 80% of the infrastructure done. need 1-3 days to finish that, then maybe a week to port the external format definitions to the new world and test them, plus merge into sbcl proper 17:56:03 *p_l* looks to where his manual regarding RMS is 17:56:33 bzwahr: Take advantage of destructuring, similar to what happens with with-open-file, so that keywords and &rest / &body can't get mixed up. 17:56:39 *nikodemus* grabs the commit dongle 17:56:42 tmh: fix the order of the subtractends then. We're talking about support for a special case in a compiler. Nobody will read that code. 17:57:25 nyef: well I'm using cl-who, which uses a lot of colon keywords like :br :p :span etc, so I think that was causing issues 17:57:34 i think our release policy could use a bit of polish 17:58:19 i'd like to tag the cvs as x.y.z.rc1 at the start of the freeze, and make binaries for most platforms, and send email to sbcl-announce 17:58:32 bzwahr: semantically, there's no link between keyword arguments and keyword symbols. 17:58:49 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:58:53 nyef: it works when I use the default value for the &key-ed variable but if I try to set the key, I get an error 17:59:12 then, if problems appear, repeat the same with .rc2 -- repeat till something seems good enough to call a release 17:59:26 get more users to actually test during the freeze period, etc 17:59:41 astalla [n=astalla@host91-76-dynamic.58-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:00:32 Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 18:01:15 nm, I don't get an error, just the &key-ed value doesn't actually take the value I'm sending if I send it directly (it stays at the default I've set) 18:02:02 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:55 yeah, I believe this is not the correct way to do this. back to the drawing board. 18:03:13 bzwahr: do you understand what is going on? 18:03:18 bzwahr: I suspect that you're confused as to what is a keyword argument and what isn't a keyword argument, but I'm completely unfamiliar with cl-who, so I can't say for certain. 18:03:21 mostly 18:03:54 unless you do, you're easily going to end up with the wrong mental model that will bite you some day down the road 18:04:28 *nikodemus* always recommends taking 15min extra to actually understand what is going on -- granted, sometimes it may take longer... 18:04:40 *nikodemus* releases the commit dongle 18:04:59 nikodemus: I agree that I should understand. I plan on it. 18:06:18 The remainder from CEILING is always non-positive, isn't it? 18:06:42 (That is, it is less than or equal to zero, right?) 18:06:50 pierre- [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:51 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:06:56 hello 18:07:36 (ceiling -5 -2) => 3, 1 18:07:39 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 18:07:54 I want to use lisp as a replacement for C preprocessor. Is there a s-expr -> C code library? 18:07:57 Okay, but with a positive dividend? 18:08:02 pkhuong: Then I prefer (- 1 (* 2 (logand integer 1))) ; -1^integer <- note comment. 18:08:09 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:08:37 (Or is that divisor? Whichever. Both will be positive for my use-case.) 18:09:22 are &key-ed parameters the only parameters than can be given default values? 18:09:54 no, &optional too 18:11:10 (and &aux, though it's not a parameter) 18:12:37 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-49-252.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:12:42 Good evening. 18:13:08 hi beach 18:13:20 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:18 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068087168.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:17:05 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:18:24 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 18:18:43 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:19:43 benny` [n=benny@i577A2156.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:20:12 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:20:36 pierre-: brian mastenbrook had one at least, dunno where it is. there may be others 18:20:59 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:22:49 nikodemus: thanks 18:23:07 *nikodemus* heads home 18:24:30 ok, still confused. can someone take a look at it for me and tell me what I'm diong wrong? I'm certain I'm just completely doing the in a non-lispy way which is why its wrong 18:24:32 *bzwahr* is trying to learn 18:24:36 actually, not just yet 18:24:59 slyrus_: about 1.1, can you send something about that to the mailing list? 18:27:46 -!- pierre- [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has left #lisp 18:28:14 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:28:17 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181130081.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:28:43 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 18:29:31 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit ["100 days are gone..."] 18:32:52 KingThomasV [n=KingThom@c-76-122-37-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:43 bzwahr, what are you trying to do? sorry but I lost the start of the conversation 18:34:36 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:04 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A2576.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:36:22 well, in plain words, I'm trying to send a bunch of functions to a macro as &rest and send a &key argument "apptitle", but somethign it not working in the mix 18:37:04 i'm starting to confuse myself, so I may not give the best explanations 18:38:49 bzwahr pasted "rest and key" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81374 18:39:12 there we go, that way I don't have to explain over. I tried to be as succinct and clear as possible 18:39:25 -!- hnr [n=henry@62.49.66.13] has quit [] 18:39:40 TDT [n=TDT@128.255.134.155] has joined #lisp 18:40:20 in the context of that code, I'm simply trying to be able to optionally pass an "apptitle" argument to the macro. 18:42:45 hmm, I believe the problem is that, in the 2nd version, the default value *app-title* is evaluated at macro-expansion time and not at runtime, as you probably want. 18:43:11 Try quoting *app-title*: &key (apptitle '*app-title*) 18:43:17 -!- benny` is now known as benny 18:43:44 -!- dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:19 no, that doesn't change anything really. its *app-title* as a variable works just fine. 18:44:41 bzwahr: Try putting the keys before the rest in the lambda list. 18:44:55 the main problem is part of "content" (i.e. (:br), etc) gets seen as keywords and the program complains 18:45:17 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 18:45:24 tmh: rest has to come before keys in an argument list. what do you mean by lambda list? 18:45:45 bzwahr: oops, yeah. 18:45:50 <_3b> rest and keyword args operate on the same set of arguments 18:46:04 I've noticed :-P 18:46:21 yeah, sure, you can't do that bzwahr: if you combine &rest and &key, you must pass key-value pairs 18:46:58 <_3b> maybe you want (defmacro my-layout ((heading &key (apptitle...)) &body content) ...) ? 18:47:16 <_3b> then (my-layout ("Main Page") ...) 18:47:27 bzwahr: I get confused mixing &rest and &key, obviously, so I generally don't do it. 18:47:28 I just wnat to pass something like "(:h2 "hi") (:br) (:br)" as a &rest variable that can be expanded with ,@ and be able to optionally pass and "apptitle" argument with a non-default title 18:47:57 tmh: I've heard that a couple times now, I'm starting to see why 18:48:24 _3b: didn't think about &body... maybe that will work, I'm not sure how &body is handled 18:48:37 &body is just like &rest 18:48:41 bzwahr: take a look at yaclml 18:49:02 <_3b> yeah, i suggested &body mainly to get it to indent more nicely in the editor :) 18:49:17 bzwahr: no no no. The key is the extra set of parenthesis around the "heading" part that _3b sent 18:49:18 <_3b> important part was putting the other args in a sublist and destructuring 18:49:26 Fade: I will, though I want to fix my problem first for learning purposes before I disregard it 18:49:31 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:49:53 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@76.122.37.30] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:53:43 jleija: oh! I missed that! that seems to work! (so far) I *think* I understand how.. not completely sure on how ((var &key (key default)) &body body) works, but I sort of understand it 18:54:07 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:56 bzwahr: it's a destructuring lambda list; it only works in macros and when using the destructuring-bind macro 18:55:14 basically it's a lambda list which is not flat but allows sub-lists 18:55:57 astalla: ok. and the destructuring-bind macro is the ,@ right? 18:56:03 no 18:56:12 oh 18:56:22 ,@ is read-time syntax, it's not a macro 18:56:31 -!- dysinger [n=tim@12.35.79.2] has quit [] 18:56:38 clhs destructuring-bind 18:56:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_destru.htm 18:58:08 astalla: you said it only works when using the destructuring-bind macro, but I"m not using that. is it an automatic thing? 18:58:50 no, I meant: it works only in macros, or by using destructuring-bind 18:59:00 oh, ok 18:59:16 well awesome. I never would have figured all that out myself. 18:59:25 (in fact probably macros use it internally) 18:59:37 I'd seen &body coupled with ,@ before but never really understood what it was doing/how it worked 18:59:56 , and ,@ exist independently of macros. 19:00:14 I know what , does, but what does ,@ do again? 19:00:40 splices the elements of a list into another one. 19:01:06 that's right 19:01:09 *bzwahr* headdesk 19:01:21 `(a ,(list 1 2) ,@(list 1 2)) ==> (a (1 2) 1 2) 19:03:29 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:05:15 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@89.180.52.137] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 19:05:28 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:48 Chile` [n=nobody@cardinal4.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:05:58 ok, another more simple straight forward question: can I evaulate, say, and if statement in the arguments for a macro, like (call-macro (if (something) (use-this-arg) (use-other-arg)))? or does it have to be (if (something) (call-macro (use-this-arg)) (call-macro (use-other-arg))) 19:06:24 <_3b> depends on the macro 19:06:30 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E392.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:06:39 fair enough 19:06:52 <_3b> though when it works, you'd probably end up with the IF in teh expansion, which may or may not be what you want 19:07:04 oh, good point 19:07:20 <_3b> in the other case though, you get both expansions of the macro in the final code 19:07:42 <_3b> (assuming the compiler can't tell at compile time which branch will be taken) 19:08:10 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 19:08:10 makes sense 19:09:26 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:12:00 LiamH: I just pushed a new branch, 'expanded-interface', to the repository for LISP-UNIT. It is better organized to support my unit testing as well as GSLL. Take a look at your convenience. 19:12:46 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:13:08 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@196-111.0-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:13:11 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:16:02 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.116.176] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:18:10 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 19:18:12 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 19:18:18 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:17 drafael [n=tapio@130.216.92.199] has joined #lisp 19:23:44 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-2-150.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:24:11 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 19:24:19 mjf [n=mjf@r6y126.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 19:27:09 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:31:44 dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 19:31:56 -!- drafael [n=tapio@130.216.92.199] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:32:08 johs_ [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 19:32:22 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:32:57 drafael [n=tapio@130.216.92.199] has joined #lisp 19:33:14 Pavitra [n=benjamin@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:22 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslq091.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:33:52 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:44 Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 19:35:11 hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 19:35:31 -!- hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:38:18 #!/usr/bin/sbcl --noinform --noprint --disable-debugger doesn't work for me :( 19:38:42 tmh: OK, will do. 19:38:46 it ignores the rest of the file *and* the command line arguments 19:38:52 <_3b> --script maybe? 19:38:56 hrm 19:39:26 --script isn't in my copy of the manpage 19:39:29 <_3b> maybe add in a /usr/bin/env or whatever it is too, depending on shell? 19:39:46 oh, that's probably it 19:39:53 <_3b> might need a newer sbcl too then 19:41:06 I got mine from the repos 19:41:18 1.0.18.debian 19:41:20 this is a known bug. AFAIK the kernel ignores all but the first argument in a #! expression 19:41:40 By first argument, do you mean $0 or $1 19:41:40 i thought that's a feature 19:41:56 $1 19:41:59 because my arg 1 is --noinform, which is also ignored 19:42:23 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:42:29 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 19:42:54 -!- HG` [n=wells@85.8.89.88] has quit [Client Quit] 19:43:20 the standard workaround is to use #!/usr/local/bin/my_sbcl_wrapper, and in the wrapper: exec /usr/bin/sbcl --noinform --noprint --disable-debugger "$@" 19:43:50 There's also a non-standard workaround. 19:44:26 (let ((heading "some string")) ... (call-macro (heading))) that should call the macro sending the string "some string" as an argument, right? 19:44:27 http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/crtc-lcd-test.lisp is what I ended up doing. 19:44:56 Of course, it trashes all script args, but that should be fixable. 19:45:00 <_3b> bzwahr: no, it sends a list containing the symbol heading 19:45:33 <_3b> bzwahr: usually you would expand to something that would interpret HEADING as a variable, which would expand to "some string" when evaluated 19:46:23 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:24 ok, so if I want to pass the value of heading instead, how would I achieve that? 19:46:42 use functions 19:46:52 <_3b> you don't... heading doesn't have a value when the macro is expanded 19:47:47 ok, so I have to call (call-macro ("some string") ... ) 19:48:05 <_3b> that, or do what i said in the first response 19:48:14 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-5-216.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:49:52 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068087168.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:20 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [] 19:50:21 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:50:45 kpierre [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:52 <_3b> if you are having problems with that though, it might be a sign you should be writing a function instead of a macro 19:50:58 The only thing I've had partly work so far is the wrapper strategy, and that still ignores all the actual commands in the file 19:51:22 At no point does it appear to be actually executing the Lisp code on the lines following the initial shebang. 19:53:05 Pavitra: note that "sbcl foo.lisp" does *not* execute anything 19:53:17 Pavitra: Try the version in http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/crtc-lcd-test.lisp (but don't run that script verbatim, for obvious reasons). 19:53:41 ok 19:54:05 sbcl --load foo.lisp does. but the --script option is designed for shebang use 19:54:14 #!/whatever/sbcl --script 19:54:18 That worked 19:54:39 the crtc-lcd workaround 19:54:55 --script is just like --load except it skips the shebang line too 19:55:05 *nyef* swiped it from somewhere else... Possibly sb-executable. 19:56:29 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:56:36 pierre- [n=pierre@89.223.30.171] has joined #lisp 19:58:07 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 19:58:30 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:59:09 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:59:16 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:29 -!- drafael [n=tapio@130.216.92.199] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:59:49 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-13213.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 20:01:24 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:04:54 -!- jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has quit ["leaving"] 20:05:11 jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 20:06:22 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 20:06:27 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 20:08:03 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068087168.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:08:26 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:08:29 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:09:27 jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 20:11:31 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:34 -!- Chile` [n=nobody@cardinal4.Stanford.EDU] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:12:39 hi, i'm seeing the error "The function BORDEAUX-THREADS:MAKE-THREAD is undefined." in a system with :BORDEAUX-THREADS and :SB-THREAD in *features*. other bordeaux-threads functions such as make-recursive-lock are defined. Any idea what could be going on? 20:13:24 this is sbcl 1.0.28.70 on osx 10.5 (intel) if it matters 20:15:51 jlf`: can you wipe out the fasls and recompile ? 20:15:59 i see that bordeaux-threads::%make-thread is defined fwiw 20:16:14 fe[nl]ix: sure 20:20:24 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1BE66.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:48 hmm, after deleting fasls slime fails to load, with the message `debugger invoked on a SB-INT:EXTENSION-FAILURE in thread #: Don't know how to REQUIRE ASDF.' 20:21:05 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:21:15 -!- segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1C27F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:21:21 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:46 dysinger [n=tim@32.177.13.29] has joined #lisp 20:27:48 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:27:48 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:29:03 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Broken pipe] 20:29:38 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 20:30:18 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:19 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:48 antoszka [n=antoszka@2001:6a0:14a:0:0:0:0:dada] has joined #lisp 20:33:51 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:34:24 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 20:34:36 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:34:36 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:43 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:39:43 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 20:41:17 fe[nl]ix: after rebuilding sbcl the error regarding asdf disappeared, and evidently removing the fasls solved the original issue. thanks for your help. 20:44:22 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.73.241] has joined #lisp 20:47:14 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 20:47:21 -!- nullman [n=nullman@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:47:40 jlf`: nice 20:49:10 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:49:18 how do i get the generic-function-object of a setf method? 20:49:44 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:50:29 what's generic-function-object? 20:50:39 It's still a function, isn't it? 20:50:59 Shouldn't #' do the trick? 20:51:27 hmm an object of type generic function= 20:51:47 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:55 yeah #' works actually... 20:51:57 thanks 20:52:00 silly me 20:52:52 I have a really dumb question... is there a built-in function for the equivalent of: (first (last lst)) ? 20:53:21 hmm.. paul graham wrote last1 for that, i dont think there is one 20:53:35 ah, ok... thanks 20:54:37 timor: programatically, by FDEFINITION 20:54:50 nzodd: Alexandria got one called LASTCAR 20:55:14 alexandria? 20:55:22 minion: alexandria 20:55:23 alexandria: Alexandria is a collection of portable public domain utilities. http://www.cliki.net/alexandria 20:55:38 ah, awesome, I'll check it out 20:55:54 nzodd: contains a bunch of useful stuff, like curry and compose 20:56:04 :) 20:56:28 -!- MrPat [n=MrPat@dhcp-pa-67-20-227-48.consolidated.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:56:53 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:58:07 and, you know that using last is slow? 20:58:19 hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 21:00:30 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:01:47 -!- mrscheme [n=user@67.110.140.180.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:03:01 how can you call two macros from a third and have the result be the expansion of both? something like (defmacro macro1 () `(macro2 args) `(macro3 args)) 21:03:10 nuntius [n=nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:39 <_3b> `(progn (macro2 ...) (macro3 ...)) 21:03:43 first thing, you don't call macros, you expand them 21:03:43 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:47 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:03:56 bzwahr: depending on the functionality: `(progn ,(macro2 args) ,(macro3 args)) or as _3b said 21:05:46 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:06:01 _3b: that results in the same as `(macro1...) `(macro2...) 21:06:31 <_3b> depends on how you define 'results in' 21:06:33 it most certainly does not. 21:06:35 bzwahr: which will expand to... (solution to be found here) 21:07:46 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:09:02 <_3b> also i suppose depends on how you code was intended to be interpreted 21:09:39 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:11:41 <_3b> bzwahr: try using MACROEXPAND or MACROEXPAND-1 to see what your macros are doing (in slime, hit C-c Ret on the opening paren of the macro form) 21:12:36 got it. it was an issue with the library I'm using. the calls were right, I was mistaking the expected output. 21:13:43 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:14:49 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:20 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:18:29 ejs [n=eugen@239-23-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:14 gegloe [n=direct@unaffiliated/pina] has joined #lisp 21:20:55 linguini [n=user@c-67-171-211-155.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:01 -!- gegloe [n=direct@unaffiliated/pina] has left #lisp 21:25:11 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:15 -!- housel [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit ["Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5"] 21:25:49 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-134-169.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 21:30:21 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 21:30:30 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:30:48 kanmahotell [n=Athlon@144-211-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:45 -!- astalla [n=astalla@host91-76-dynamic.58-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 21:35:14 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:35:16 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:26 -!- hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [] 21:37:43 -!- kanmahotell [n=Athlon@144-211-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:39:10 -!- dysinger [n=tim@32.177.13.29] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:39:58 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:40:07 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 21:41:08 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:41:18 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:43:11 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 21:44:09 -!- bzwahr [n=user@bloc-bzwahr-lap.tamu.edu] has left #lisp 21:47:55 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:51:17 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:20 -!- TDT [n=TDT@128.255.134.155] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:53:27 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:55:01 hrm why are my slime-translate-to/from-lisp-filename-functions failing 21:55:35 to do what? 21:56:14 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:58 stassats`: i don't think they're called at all 21:57:08 stassats`: it says failed to find TRUENAME 21:57:52 that could mean that file doesn't exists 21:57:59 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 21:58:10 stassats`: the tramping back and forth works though 21:58:44 and i can see the file on the remote machine 22:00:06 HET2 pasted "slime translate" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81381 22:00:29 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.250.84] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:01:15 where did you get these slime-translate-to-lisp-filename-function variables? 22:01:59 here for example: http://www.pchristensen.com/blog/articles/reference-for-the-slimelispemacs-screencast/ 22:01:59 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 22:02:12 "February 8th, 2008" 22:02:37 you've got a point 22:02:44 milanj [n=milan@77.46.174.143] has joined #lisp 22:02:47 i just found the part in the slime docs 22:03:00 read docstrings contrib/slime-tramp.el 22:03:29 -!- ejs [n=eugen@239-23-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:03:54 "in" 22:04:09 chessguy_ [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:14 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-13213.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 22:04:16 Jabberwock [n=jens@port-10532.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 22:05:07 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:05:37 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:38 well, and make sure you are loading slime-tramp, because it's not even in slime-fancy 22:06:49 load means (require 'sime-tramp) ? 22:07:14 (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-whatever ... slime-tramp)) 22:07:18 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:25 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:08:03 ah thx 22:10:18 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:10:32 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 22:10:40 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068087168.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:56 hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:18 HET2: Is there a way you can actually download that screencast? I don't have usable flash in my browsers. 22:13:45 antoszka: http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 22:13:52 thx. 22:16:31 Is there a particular lightweight markup language, like textile and asciidoc, that has lisp libraries for it and is somewhat of a standard? 22:17:09 konr: no standards here 22:17:22 <_3b> there are lisp implementations of a few of them 22:17:30 what are textile and asciidoc? 22:17:53 <_3b> manic12: 'lightweight markup languages' 22:17:54 konr: but perhaps cl-markdown will meet your fancy 22:18:03 _3b: take a look at asciidoc: http://www.methods.co.nz/asciidoc/images/highlighter.png 22:18:04 besides lightweight markup langauges 22:18:09 <_3b> manic12: stuff like _foo_ to underline, ### for headers, etc 22:18:29 ops, I meant maniac12 22:18:40 *_3b* uses modified cl-markdown 22:19:18 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6EB7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 22:20:39 -!- kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:21:00 What CL library would I need to work with unixtime? 22:21:04 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:21:08 -!- nicktastique [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:21:18 kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has joined #lisp 22:21:19 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 22:21:20 nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 22:22:08 kanmahotell [i=kanmahot@144-211-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:11 perhaps, local-time? 22:22:35 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:22:53 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 22:23:23 -!- kanmahotell [i=kanmahot@144-211-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:23:24 I was looking at freetype yesterday and noticed that it doesn't seem to have many 64 bit compiles, specifically not a windows x64 22:23:27 kanmahotell [i=kanmahot@144-211-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:45 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:54 Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:23:55 can anyone confirm that before I work on a system to do texture fonts from wgl functions? 22:24:04 Ïðèâåò 22:24:48 Êàê gui ê ëèñïó ïðèêðóòèòü? 22:25:17 ß þçàþ clisp 22:25:17 well, you are using the wrong encoding and the wrong language 22:25:18 how many do you need? 22:25:52 -!- kpierre [n=kpierre@jabber.hsdnetwork.net] has left #lisp 22:26:00 How to connect gui to clisp? Library? 22:26:08 manic12: there appear to be 64-bit binaries of freetype for 64-bit windows on gtk.org 22:26:10 common question 22:26:18 thanks hefner 22:26:35 -!- pierre- [n=pierre@89.223.30.171] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:27:16 gui questions are so boring 22:27:35 thats because we have bad answers 22:28:28 stassats`: ill take my lispbuilder-sdl elsewhere ;-) 22:28:29 every question is boring once you've seen the answers and resulting conversation repeated a few dozen times. 22:28:53 *lispbuilder-sdl question 22:30:23 minion: graphics toolkit 22:30:24 graphics toolkit: CLiki pages about X11 graphics toolkits. http://www.cliki.net/graphics%20toolkit 22:30:30 there is no clear answer on guis for lisp 22:30:40 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 22:31:03 "don't gui" is a clear answer 22:31:04 -!- nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving the office."] 22:31:29 don't gui means don't lisp for some 22:31:31 there's no clear answer for GUIs anywhere :) 22:31:33 i visit lispbuilder website 22:31:37 ture 22:31:39 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 22:31:45 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Client Quit] 22:31:46 true 22:32:01 Gtk! No, Qt! No, Cocoa! No, ... 22:32:07 stassats`: works now, thanks for the help 22:32:23 windows 22:32:30 at least I've never heard anyone ask for "MFC bindings for lisp" ;) 22:32:31 doors 22:32:36 I've used LTk, since it's pretty easy. However, it lags due to strigifying everything when you've got complex highly interative displays 22:32:42 hefner: yes, motif! 22:32:42 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:32:45 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:49 hefner: doesnt clozure have cocoa bindings? 22:33:03 stassats`: but motif is really cocoa isn't it 22:33:16 mcspiff: probably, yeah. 22:33:31 HET2: in disguise 22:33:43 konr: look for cl-markdown 22:33:52 speaking of GUI, does anyone have lispbuilder-sdl under os x working? 22:33:54 since opengl seems to be the only serious cross-platform graphics api, i think we should hack a next generation clim type thing using that 22:34:18 manic12: you use "we" too much 22:34:22 no, thanks, i don't have a good opengl on my laptop 22:34:22 heh 22:35:23 by time "we" will write "a next generation clim" opengl will die for sure 22:35:42 -!- saikat__ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:35:51 fe[nl]ix: it's not like I'm going to do it by myself, and it's not like I'm going to recruit C programmers 22:36:05 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-19-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:11 thanks hefner, that dll loads into my lisp, that's a good sign 22:37:21 *_3b* would work on GL clim, but probably nobody would like my choice of hardware requirements :p 22:37:40 woo i got a blank white window... Not exactly the bmp i wanted to load, but hey! 22:37:44 _3b: hardware vendors would 22:37:45 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-49-252.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:37:46 _3b: i'm not sure I'd like your choice of OS requirements ;) 22:37:56 I've not used Clim, but I have read the docs 22:38:07 <_3b> hefner: nah, my GL code shouldn't depend on OS 22:38:28 Now, everybody talks about how "different" it is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to be relatively close to the dynamic HTML model. 22:38:40 ? 22:39:00 clim is 15 years older than dhtml 22:39:02 You append stuff to the current page, it pops up, you can still change & interact with it 22:39:03 In this brave new world of linuxes (which continue to have spotty 3D acceleration) and crappy underpowered mobile machines everywhere, I'm not enthusiastic about building on OpenGL 22:39:06 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB"] 22:39:29 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:39:38 manic12: right, I'm not making claims of age, I'm just saying that their model is somewhat related 22:39:43 hefner: by the time "we" get it done...:P 22:39:48 I would, because it solves some problems conveniently, I just don't think anything is going to be both shiny and robust unless it is capable of doing all the rendering to memory in software (with some reduced shiny, for the least common denominator hardware) 22:39:52 <_3b> yeah, i wouldn't expect a GL clim to be general purpose 22:40:16 <_3b> at least not one that i wrote :p 22:40:18 and doesn't OS X still do a surprising amount of rendering in software? ;) 22:40:36 <_3b> osx has good GL support, so i'd expect not unless it had to 22:40:56 <_3b> and from what i hear, it does a reasonably good job in software when it has to as well :) 22:41:05 *Phoodus* wishes everything would just use the system-default widget library and not try to do everything themselves 22:41:22 well, system-default on linux? 22:41:24 <_3b> Phoodus: so Xt on X? 22:41:27 hence, I tend to just stick with Tcl and such 22:41:30 I don't follow closely, but what I read a couple years ago was that quartz extreme didn't get used by default, because its performance characteristics were sufficiently different from the original software rendering that it was a regression for a lot of applications unless they coded specifically for it 22:41:32 yeah, X11 is a real nuisance 22:41:41 *mcspiff* would love to use his system default widget library from sbcl. Cocoa 22:41:42 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:48 we (meaning fe[nl]ix and I ) should be forging the way not trying to determine what will die on us 22:42:08 Phoodus: the best thing about X11 is that they haven't managed to replace it yet. 22:42:29 X11 is simply entirely too low level for everything to be interacting with directly 22:42:30 -!- Jabberwock [n=jens@port-10532.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:42:53 just imagine what a disaster they'd make if those desktop environment people were really allowed to run amok build new terrible things 22:43:08 talk to you all later! 22:43:22 do i need to download lispwork and Edi Weitz's Lisp Starter Pack to make lispbuilder-sdl work? 22:43:31 -!- birdsbite [n=user@74.196.9.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:43:44 <_3b> kanmahotell: you shouldn't need those 22:43:58 why 22:44:14 How to install lispbuilder-sdl to clisp 22:44:20 *stassats`* didn't notice how it all turned down to the good old discussion about guis 22:44:39 <_3b> clbuild is an easy way to install things if you aren't using windows 22:44:42 In conclusion, I think people who would do away with X11 don't realize the terrible bargain they'd be making with the devil ;) 22:44:57 i am on windows 22:45:21 -!- bobf_ is now known as bobf 22:45:21 hefner: why? 22:45:22 housel [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 22:47:56 If I were writing something like X11 today, I'd make it such that if the server were running on a Windows box, the app would show using Windows widgets. Same on Mac. On Linux, you'd have your preference selected for which widget lib you want 22:48:06 basically, networked wxWidgets most likely 22:49:24 manic12: you figure out the issue 22:49:32 *did 22:49:37 <_3b> kanmahotell: in that case the starter pack might be the easiest way 22:50:42 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y126.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 22:51:44 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1BE66.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["quit"] 22:52:33 xristos: the performance issue? 22:52:44 yes 22:53:26 xristos: in fact when I did manage to get some profile statistics, which was difficult it was spending a lot of time in glCallLists and glRasterPos 22:53:56 sounds about right 22:54:28 emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:54:31 i could speed that up a bit by limiting myself to monospaced fonts, but I am going to do the texture thing, and since I have to write a bunch of code I am going to try using freetype instead of wgl 22:54:57 thanks for the link on that webpage though 22:55:10 it's much better than the nehe stuff on fonts 22:55:11 <_3b> lists are bad for you anyway :p 22:55:11 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:55:14 parolang` [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:19 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:55:47 check this out too 22:55:49 http://factor-language.blogspot.com/2009/01/unicode-font-rendering-in-factor-ui-on.html 22:56:06 i have to go now, I'll see you all later (I'll bookmark that...thanks!) 22:56:10 slava wanted to drop freetype dependency on windows 22:56:18 i don't know if he did it and what native api he uses 22:56:22 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:57:33 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.73.241] has quit [Success] 22:58:08 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:58:31 -!- parolang` [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:58:38 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:59:56 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit ["leaving"] 23:10:03 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:10:31 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 23:12:04 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:35 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087A2F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:16:27 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:16:56 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:00 -!- emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:20:51 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:21:33 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-141-33.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:21:55 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 23:22:02 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:22:26 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 23:23:03 meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:10 Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp 23:23:18 Phoodus: okay, but then you wouldn't have a window system, you'd have a UI toolkit 23:23:31 mcspiff: lispbuilder-sdl works just fine in osx 23:23:49 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:03 hefner: The Window system would be part of the server, had I made it 23:24:13 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@43.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:24:45 the window system is part of the server, you're just attempting to redefine what "window system" means 23:24:53 There's nothing wrong with the X11 abstraction per se for building a windowing system, but I think a widget-level abstraction is what should be exposed to windowing clients 23:25:03 over the network 23:25:34 <_3b> nah, then you'd have to maintain it in the server even after everyone stopped using it :p 23:25:43 yeah, we'd be much better off using a widget system designed in the 80s 23:25:50 :) 23:26:16 you're still using a windowing system designed in the 80s, cobbled together with extensions 23:26:17 same problem 23:26:25 for a while, people made separate X windows for each widget. 23:26:36 well, that's how X was intended to be used 23:26:43 Phoodus: yeah, but it's sufficiently low level that you can usually ignore it. 23:27:03 anyway, just think who'd be doing the work if you made it more sophisticated 23:27:17 Phoodus: check out Y, you may find it interesting (there are others too, I think) 23:27:19 I simply find X to be too slow over the net compared to VNC, and especially compared to RDP 23:27:20 you'd have a damned Gnome desktop hardwired into window server 23:27:32 eek 23:27:33 there'd be nowhere safe to run 23:27:50 Phoodus: programs that aren't openoffice/mozilla/firefox are pretty reasonable 23:27:52 Phoodus: and you may want to look at nxserver (I think that was the name, it is an X extension that makes it faster over the network) 23:28:10 *parolang* hugs his tiling window manager. 23:28:22 *madnificent* hugs stumpwm 23:28:23 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-2-221.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 23:28:23 some apps are just hella slow even over a fairly fast network, they must be doing a ton of round trips for something 23:28:46 it's kind of like socialism. sound good in theory, works okay if the state really is smarter than me and I don't mind being told what to do.. 23:28:48 right, and lots of bitmap sends instead of high-level protocols 23:28:51 *_3b* remembers trying to use motif apps over a modem connection 23:29:18 foom: uncompressed data is sent over the network, that makes scrolling etc surreal. X forwarding is rather dumb (in the sense that it doesn't care that it's going over a slow line. The net effect is fair) 23:29:43 madnificent: eh, X over ssh (does anyone use it any other way?) gets compressed. 23:30:35 Phoodus: if things were implemented correctly in user space, I don't see how there'd be much difference. It's unavoidable that bitmaps get sent to the graphics card by someone, eventually. 23:31:03 right, but don't most modern widget libraries render on the client, and push bitmaps to the server for nearly everything? 23:31:12 foom: but the compression is not good. It only compresses the commands. I can't tell you the inner working, but that is the main thing that nxserver solves. 23:31:35 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:31:44 Phoodus: in fact, I think you're not really so concerned with the technical side of the architecture, I think you're just sick of hearing about window systems, and would like some benevolent dictator to simplify things by eliminating all the alternatives. 23:31:47 I mean, the client shouldn't care how things are displayed, imo 23:31:48 madnificent: The last news item on the Y windows home page is from 2004. 23:32:13 Phoodus: you care about how things are displayed if you don't want them to look like crap. 23:32:14 hefner: I'm looking at which abstraction layer the networking is placed at. I think it's too low 23:32:42 parolang: and still it brings it closer to what you were talking about (and even then, how old is X exactly? ;)) 23:33:01 heh :) 23:33:41 Phoodus: modern text rendering on x11 is done via xrender extensions where you upload font glyphs once, then use a set of text drawing functions not unlike the original x11 text drawing functions 23:33:56 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:34:19 Phoodus: ..which is a far cry from rendering everything into bitmaps and uploading it, and I think real toolkits (Gtk, Qt?) coordinate this so that you don't have each app with separate copies of the font. 23:34:21 I think this is an age-old discussion, been hearing it for years :) 23:34:35 yeah, sorry. 23:34:46 parolang: No, it's only as old as computers are ;) 23:34:56 I remember when Mac OS X came out and everyone is running around thinking X is obsolete :) 23:35:01 just that I fear who my new masters will be the day the New Desktop Order is upon me 23:35:17 anyway, I've been doing declarative UIs for a while, so that definitely changes my thinking with how client<->window comms should go 23:35:28 hefner: Nothing to apologize for. I just wanted to make comment :) 23:36:01 Phoodus: now build us a new X-descendant :) 23:36:19 Phoodus: Then it seems what you want is a new abstraction at the widget level, not necessarily the x server level. 23:36:39 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-67-143.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["« La POO c'est bien beau, mais en C au moins on va droit au but. »"] 23:37:04 (in fact, I strongly dislike X11, and if I were trying to build something cool from scratch, I would stay as far away from it as possible, but that's not relevant to getting things done on a vanilla unix box) 23:37:24 milanj- [n=milan@93.86.230.113] has joined #lisp 23:37:33 also, after all these years of using X, I donon't really see the point in it anymore (besides images in pictures). Everything I do is text (besides seeing web pages, but they might be better without all the imagery from time to time) 23:37:37 hefner: If you wanted to follow the NDO, you'd be using OS X or Windows :) 23:38:43 hefner: well, seeing as I am making a new windowing abstraction layer, I guess we're in agreement ;) 23:39:04 i dont see any future in X at all, it is just more of the same 23:39:19 they have all these incompatible extensions, they keep reinventing the wheel every 2-3 years 23:39:19 parolang: that sounds like being forced to choose between brainwashing in a new age cult, or joining some private corporate army 23:39:31 then you have vendors who go and do their own thing on top 23:39:32 what a mess 23:39:54 that is democracy, xristos! 23:40:08 and multiple x servers which may or may not be full featured or compatible 23:40:13 dga,dga2,exa,xvideo,glx,aiglx,xrender,glitz,dri 23:40:17 my god 23:40:23 madnificent: Yeah, could be a use case thing. But I'd hate to be restricted by my use case. e.g., why should a CAS be restricted to console character cells? That's something that bugs me about the console, honestly, the restriction character cells. 23:40:32 That's not democracy, that's lack of leadership & design 23:40:43 exactly! 23:40:47 hefner: I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that about Apple users :) 23:40:52 Phoodus: that's the definition of democracy 23:41:11 Isn't democracy = majority decides what the whole does? 23:41:18 lack of decision != democracy 23:41:22 <_3b> bah, character cells aren't a restriction, just use really small characters and you have pixel addressable graphics :) 23:41:33 froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:42 Phoodus: There is no leadership in a democracy :) 23:41:50 yes there is, the majority rule 23:41:52 _3b: lol 23:42:06 parolang: it bugs me that some apps are not... if everything were in character cells, my screen would be used far better... now there can be gaps 23:42:09 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.174.143] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:42:13 Phoodus: Then you have least common denominator leadership 23:42:40 parolang: a big problem is that people want graphics and stuff... the only thing those fancy new things do, is make them less productive 23:42:44 but in something like X11, it's a bunch of independent states that may or may not have any relations with each other, not a unified democracy 23:42:46 <_3b> parolang: fun part is that i'm actually serious :) that was actually the gfx mode with the most colors on CGA 23:43:31 <_3b> lose a bit of resolution that way though 23:43:32 _3b: Wow, I didn't know that. 23:43:43 good ol' ascii art 23:43:44 I was a kid when I last used CGA :) 23:44:05 I was on a Commodore 64 at the time, and most of the PCs sucked in comparison, even though they had bigger specs 23:44:06 characters aren't so bad if you have sprites too :) 23:44:19 -!- dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:35 <_3b> yeah, you could also do graphics in text mode by redefining the characters, that was fun too :p 23:44:51 madnificent: Some of this is just sounding like bitterness. :) There's nothing in itself or counterproductive about graphics. 23:44:52 yep, the mouse cursor for some DOS applications did just that 23:45:06 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:45:09 madnificent: Though, I honestly can't stand graphical emoticons in emails and such. 23:45:10 *hefner* was thinking more of NES, NES, SMS, etc. 23:45:31 parolang: no, but they tend to be used only for that (and no, not really... For instance, I like games... but in essense, people use computers to slack, even when at work) 23:45:55 hefner: and then there's the Amiga, around the same time, did only bitmaps & sprites. 23:46:09 madnificent: But, it's about expression for me. You can have a CLI, but you shouldn't have to restricted to character cells. For instance, mathematics is probably the most expressive and concise language we've developed thus far, and the console can't come close to replicating it. 23:46:13 <_3b> yeah, amiga gave you lots of fun tricks with the nice interrupts for things :) 23:46:29 parolang: take the mouse for instance. The time people need to click on things is really a big big pita from time to time. The first time I realised this was seeing my dad work on lotus-1-2-3. He *didn't* use the mouse and I was astonished 23:46:32 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:46:40 madnificent: Bondage and Discipline Interface (BDI) :) 23:46:42 minion: memo for nikodemus: packed complexes get me a 16% speed-up compared to double floats mandelbench on .28.34... But double floats with the same patch get a 35% speed-up (: 23:46:43 Remembered. I'll tell nikodemus when he/she/it next speaks. 23:47:05 madnificent: GUI is great for "I want _that_ one". CLI is great for "Let me describe it to you" 23:47:27 Phoodus: sure, the Amiga had a lot more hardware to throw around. An NES only had a fraction of the ram you'd need for a framebuffer at its apparent resolution and color depth. :) 23:47:40 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 23:47:48 parolang: think so. In any case, it is not that I dislike that there can be graphics. I do think that we would've been a lot more productive if we would've tried to do about everything in simple text (take emacs org mode for instance) 23:48:20 coderdad [n=coderdad@wsip-70-184-159-102.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:37 Phoodus: and if everything were text, then there wouldn't be too much "I want it to look like that", because the one who reads it would choose that (that was the way html was constructed in the beginning too). 23:48:46 I sound like a 50 year old :( 23:49:04 amblerc [n=user@24-180-81-97.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:49:14 madnificent: That's been my experience too, I don't care what the UI expeters or Apple fanboys think. Look at programs like AutoCAD, you get to the point where you use the keyboard for all of your work. Same with PhotoShop. And I'm intentionally referring to software unavailable on *nix platforms. 23:50:11 parolang: AutoCAD is a briliant example. It needs graphics and it needs them quickly. Unline most GUI applications, it actually needs to get something across. And it works perfectly 23:50:16 *_3b* likes a good combination of keyboard and mouse for that sort of thing 23:50:23 madnificent: that really doesn't have anything to do with user productivity, though 23:50:54 <_3b> old Softimage UI where you could use half of the keyboard as modifiers to whatever you were doing withthe mouse for example 23:51:15 Phoodus: You have to make distinctions though, for instance, between character cell interface and graphical interfaces; which is orthogonal to command-line interface and WIMP interface. You can have a character cell WIMP interface; as well as a graphical command line interface, the latter is what I'm interested in. 23:51:18 Phoodus: it does! When you actually have a message to bring across, the keyboard seems to win with a correct interface... 23:51:46 madnificent: I think it's because at a certain point the keyboard is more expressive than the mouse. 23:51:48 parolang: I seem to follow your interest 23:52:07 madnificent: fine, organize a bunch of files into directories 23:52:11 MUCH easier with a tree browser 23:52:19 Phoodus: where does text say no tree browser? 23:52:25 than with re-typing and tab-completing each tree 23:52:33 in fact, a good emacs mode could probably help you with that 23:52:37 wait, you're not just meaning CLI then 23:52:55 you're talking about positional widgets on a text grid? 23:52:56 Phoodus: no, I'm mostly interested in text-based systems in general... Not just CLI 23:53:06 for instance 23:53:45 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:52 Phoodus: basically: whatever you can do in text: do it in text. If you really must show an image: show the image (in most useful cases, the image wouldn't be a bitmap, thus the user can move it around and do with it what he wants to inspect the data) 23:54:05 most UIs are in text 23:54:07 Phoodus: even just a shell with intelligent history (e.g. zsh and alt-up) makes that easy 23:54:08 Well, now that I think, emacs isn't really WIMP, more like Windows Buffers Mouse Pointer, WBMP :) 23:54:10 even graphical ones 23:54:21 Yes, you _can_ draw lines in text, but better to do it in bitmap 23:54:31 But emacs is its own interface model that other applications can adopt (I don't know why they don't) 23:54:51 Phoodus: edible text 23:55:02 Because emacs keybindings are physically painful? 23:55:31 Jarvellis: Not speaking specifically about the keybindings :) 23:55:46 Oh, other than the keybindings emacs i lovely 23:56:02 But, yeah, emacs and ergonometry aren't two words I'd often see in the same sentence. 23:56:07 I find org mode to be a beautiful example of how easy text can be 23:56:08 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:11 It's just a lisp with text editing(and everything else) available 23:56:28 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:56:32 parolang: even with "none" involved? 23:57:12 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 23:57:14 Jarvellis: Well, there are sentences like "Emacs has poor ergonometry" (okay, I'm butchering that word, sorry) 23:57:35 But perhaps most of it has to do with your keyboard. 23:57:54 <_3b> you could also just make more firendly bindings 23:58:01 <_3b> see emacs versors for example 23:58:09 Yeah, because i should molest my key leayout for one app 23:58:09 Emacs is an exercise in rote memorization, not in intuitiveness 23:58:20 Aww shit, i just can't spell 23:58:31 Phoodus: and in efficiency... 23:58:34 Jarvellis: M-x flyspell-mode 23:58:36 :) 23:58:47 madnificent: that's predicated on the rote memorization 23:58:59 parolang: does it have an english-gb mode? 23:59:16 Jarvellis: I think that's an ispell setting. 23:59:24 Fairy nuff 23:59:56 I think it would be neat to experiment with a chorded keyboard with blank keys.