00:00:40 And you would think that floating point safety guidlines also was before computer guided missile systems... 00:02:11 clbuild slime-configuration 00:02:13 very handy 00:02:48 I have a list of car and cdr and want to apply them in order to an argument ....for example I have (car cdr car cdr) and I want to do (car (cdr (car (cdr foo)))).....is there an easy way to do this? 00:03:03 keithr: yes. 00:03:30 (reduce (lambda (r f) (funcall f r)) list-of-car-cdr tree) 00:03:43 rvirding [n=rvirding@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:03:48 (reduce (lambda (r f) (funcall f r)) list-of-car-cdr :initial-value tree) 00:05:18 Ah, if you want to start from the end: (reduce (lambda (r f) (funcall f r)) list-of-car-cdr :initial-value tree :from-end t) 00:06:15 Actually when :from-end t, the order of the arguments is reversed, so you can simplify to: (reduce (function funcall) list-of-car-cdr :initial-value tree :from-end t) 00:06:35 labeled args are awesome. 00:06:44 We call they keywords. 00:07:09 keywordsed args are awesome. 00:07:16 meingbg: I recall something like that too, except it was the Gulf War. 00:07:47 if they'd had proper weapons in WW2, the europeans would probably still be rebuilding 00:07:58 The funnier ever is the F16 who swapped above/below when it crossed the equator. (in a simulator, happily). 00:08:36 haha 00:08:46 above/below as in up/down? 00:08:55 hefner: more probable. I still don't understand why they used floating point, though. 00:08:56 Yes. 00:09:15 meingbg: The "time is continuous" illusion. 00:09:57 *amblerc* thinks time is continuous. measurments are discreet 00:10:27 *hefner* suspects time is discreet, wishes he had studied physics :) 00:10:30 *meingbg* thinks time is discrete. and matter. and space 00:10:32 All we know about picoscale tends to show neither time nor space are continuous. 00:10:33 "discrete" ;) 00:10:42 *Ralith* thinks time is an abstract concept that does not map accurately onto the real world 00:11:28 *hefner* thinks the real world is an abstract concept that does not map accurately onto reality 00:11:39 -!- Corun is now known as Corun|away 00:11:41 Watch this: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html 00:12:04 *Ralith* thinks reality is an abstract concept that does not map accurately onto perception 00:12:14 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087BCFE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:13:18 pjb: that must have had a huge effects budget 00:13:26 -!- Corun|away is now known as Corun 00:13:40 *meingbg* thinks we know a lot about things that build on concepts totally unknown to us, and that we have to redefine "knowf, 00:13:41 Ralith: CGI are cheap. 00:14:15 but is artist time? 00:14:42 *meingbg* thinks perception is an abstract concept that does not map accurately ontu truth 00:16:43 slackaholic [i=1000@189-92-176-73.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 00:17:05 hefner: it's easy to prove that time is discrete 00:17:16 pjb: thank you 00:17:17 *Ralith* thinks truth is undefined 00:17:29 *hefner* thinks this place should be nuked from orbit 00:17:57 *cp2* thinks we should start an emacs vs. vim war, just for kicks 00:17:59 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B446.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:18:20 vim's discreet, emacs's continuous? 00:20:14 *meingbg* thinks truth is to reality as opinion is to perception 00:20:23 In this channel, vim users better be discreet. 00:20:36 ^ 00:20:38 But I don't know about discrete, seems kinda weird. 00:20:54 well, there won't be nearly enough of them to be continuous 00:20:56 pjb: Kind of like 'The universe in a nutshell... The Series' 00:21:28 Ralith: Good point. 00:22:37 *pjb* is falling asleep. Good night! 00:22:57 meingbg: very uneven war, so why bother to even start it? 00:24:01 rvirding: Isn't asymmetrical warfare the norm now? 00:24:28 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:24:28 cp2: we should go over to #haskell and start a flamewar, the last time "CL vs. Haskell, no holds barred" got mentioned, people were ecstatic, saying there wasn't good CL/Haskell flamewar in ages ;-) 00:24:30 I say we apply the scorched earth strategy. 00:24:42 p_l: hehe 00:25:05 amblerc: true true 00:25:16 rvirding: What do you mean? If you cannot change my opinion, my perception is not going to change enough for me to lose the war. 00:25:19 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@209-161-236-91.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 00:25:37 amblerc: wasn't it always, between those who actually cared about something more than duking it out for some concessions? 00:25:42 What about a CL vs. ML (or more specific probably OCAML)? 00:26:08 but emacs will win so why bother even fighting :-) 00:26:10 "cl vs. visual basic" 00:26:13 thats a good fight 00:26:15 you have to debug in any language so they all suck 00:26:22 "cl vs. sh" 00:26:24 haha 00:26:30 cp2: Yeah, where is Curb Stomp Battle when you need one 00:26:34 CL vs. clojure on #java. 00:26:38 p_l: exactly :( 00:26:55 amblerc: on a serious note clojure is actually pretty neat 00:27:13 *p_l* writes some notes about USA getting "Curb Stomp Battle" treatment... for bad intelligence :> 00:27:34 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 00:27:49 :cp2 Not arguing technical merits, just caused a really long thread on c.l.l 00:27:59 I can't help myself, I'm not sure I could get anyone else fall into such nice, flame-inducing story :-) 00:28:16 amblerc: i'd think so, hah 00:28:27 c.l.l ... I think Lisp world would be better without it :P 00:28:45 i'd do CL vs sh ... i had that battle with myself and sh won for, well, things that sh is good at :D 00:29:17 Which sh is the qeustions :P 00:29:17 amblerc: got a link to the thread? 00:29:23 -!- jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:29:27 ... Lispers! Today! We Write! Malbolge! (compilers, of course) 00:29:40 jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has joined #lisp 00:30:04 :drewc Kind of hard to bootstrap your lisp environment without it. 00:32:13 someone should make a proper clsh 00:32:24 -!- parolang` [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:32:41 perhaps auto-define functions for binaries in PATH 00:33:24 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068081188.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:29 Ralith: look over scsh 00:33:52 amblerc: i think that ksh is a hell of a scripting language. I prefer it to perl for sysadmin tasks. 00:33:52 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:33:56 but that's scheme! 00:33:58 D: 00:34:01 nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:12 I tried scsh, and i tried writing a clsh, and found i much prefered using ksh. 00:34:14 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 00:34:35 what approach did you take? 00:36:03 outer-parenthesis-free-repl and a reader macro on #! for shell commands. 00:36:30 try harder! 00:36:41 heh .. indeed. 00:37:06 why not map shell commands onto function calls? 00:37:12 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:37:22 then what do you do for function calls? 00:37:27 -!- nowhere_man [i=pierre@213.41.245.51] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:37:32 use ones that don't conflict with shell commands? 00:37:45 how do you distinguish? 00:37:46 so, er, what did the #! macro do then? 00:37:51 why do you need to? 00:37:57 Perhaps the right approach is CLIM-SHELL on a terminal backend? 00:38:07 there's a clim-shell? 00:38:08 you can't distinguish between an alias/function/binary in sh, why should you need to in clsh? 00:38:26 (shell aliases are pure evil) 00:38:58 Ralith: because one thinks one might want to use lisp code as well, and not worry that adding something to $PATH might break all your scripts? 00:39:16 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:39:41 drewc: I really don't see how this is any different from any other case of avoiding naming conflicts when using a library. 00:40:08 Ralith: It's different because it's $PATH that's involved, and that's not directly under program control. 00:40:13 as I periodically mention, the clim listener used #! to convert shell commands to lambda functions years ago, with some hopeless dwim like (#!df :h), (#!rm :r :f "/"), (#!kill :9 "Ralith") 00:40:34 Ralith: what nyef said. 00:40:41 not exactly what you are talking about but related: http://www.informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html 00:40:47 i actually had a friend of mine setup a vps like that 00:40:52 was pretty interesting 00:41:00 nyef: okay, but I still don't see how that's a serious problem 00:41:09 anyway, making lisp rather than shell commands the default mode of interaction is a mistake 00:41:30 Ralith: So you have no problem with me installing this program called "cdr" in your path? 00:42:24 nyef: I'd imagine that shell functions would be overridden by lisp funcs; all that would happen would be cdr is inaccessible, and perhaps you get a warning. 00:42:36 hefner: my #! just basically preserved case on the name and arguments and ran the shell command delimited by a newline : #!rm -rf / 00:42:38 How then do you call the progrma? 00:42:42 Err... program? 00:43:20 hefner: i had a few different ideas i played with, but in the end decided to speak latin when in rome :) 00:43:46 nyef: I'm not sure what a *good* way would be, but you could always specify absolute path. 00:44:59 the real problem is, if you make program launch and lisp syntax two different modes, you lose one of the main conveniences of a shell. 00:45:10 I don't want to have to type an additional #! for every cd and ls. 00:45:42 doing it the other way around might bear consideration, though... 00:46:02 can you imagine a shell where you don't type 10,000 cd and ls commands per hour? 00:46:46 but at that point you might as well just symlink sbcl to /usr/bin/: or something and make like test. 00:47:00 hefner: hm? 00:48:23 are we talking a shell for interactive use or a shell for programming? i couldn't care about the former... i use bash and/or the CLIM listener and it works fine. 00:49:11 bobf_ [n=bob@host81-151-255-244.range81-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:49:16 the line is a little blurry. 00:49:41 I'm interested in a shell for interactive use 00:49:53 which includes some programming. 00:50:07 Ralith: use the clim listener then! 00:50:13 wassat? 00:50:17 *Ralith* googles 00:50:22 minion: mcclim? 00:50:23 mcclim: McCLIM is Mike McDonald's Free and portable implementation of CLIM, the Common Lisp ueber-Graphics Toolkit and a Common Lisp Library. http://www.cliki.net/mcclim 00:50:43 comes with mcclim... it's an interactive shell + lisp listener + goodies. 00:50:54 can I cd and ls without pain? 00:51:10 probably not, no. 00:51:20 then... why is it a valid candidate? 00:51:35 why would you use cd and ls? 00:51:49 to change directories and list their contents? 00:51:55 does it occur to you that there are better ways to do so? 00:51:59 Well there's the windows power shell.. (on windows) 00:52:08 it occurs to me that teh clim listener may have parallels 00:52:27 really, if you want unix you know where to find it.. /bin/sh lets you type raw shell commands all you want. 00:52:29 perpendiculars, too 00:52:30 but I meant to refer to 'cd' and 'ls' as operations rather than the programs themself 00:52:49 drewc: yeah but it's boring ^^ 00:53:07 So are drills. So what? 00:53:09 jthing: as drewc says, it's not that I need some decent shell. 00:53:09 nonsense, it gives you something to whine about, providing hours of entertainment 00:53:26 I have zsh. I like it. I'm just interested to see if lisp can be used that way.l 00:54:01 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 00:54:35 *nyef* is almost done converting the instances of once-only in SBCL that consist entirely of binding clauses that can be done using the simpler form to that simpler form. 00:54:37 I'm still unclear as to what exactly the clim listener is; working on installing mcclim now. 00:54:39 Lisp is a bit verbose for a shell. Ok for scripting. 00:56:00 If i say want to modify tonns of stuff I sometimes use Midnite commander (mc) 00:56:13 obviosly less typing.. 00:56:19 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:56:19 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:56:26 alexbobp: you might want to check out scsh too 00:56:39 xristos: what's it do? 00:56:41 eh ralith 00:58:45 -!- ssttss [n=sissy@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:00:01 xristos: doesn't look designed for interactive use. 01:01:30 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:01 why not ? there are ways to take care absence of readline 01:03:21 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:04:42 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 01:05:41 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Success] 01:06:04 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:52 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:06:59 xristos: "there are workarounds" doesn't resolve "it's not meant to be used interactively" 01:08:04 its a repl with useful extensions 01:08:17 thats interactive to me 01:10:17 if I want a repl with useful extensions, why not just run sbcl and write some useful extensions? 01:10:33 i don't know, why don't you 01:10:36 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:10:56 might take a while 01:11:16 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:23 xristos: *How* interactive is it? Can you tab to complete command? Or double-tab to get a list of files? 01:13:10 you can use rlwrap 01:16:25 rlwrap is not very good :) 01:16:39 xristos: mostly because I am happy enough with zsh 01:16:42 what's rlwrap? 01:16:50 there is also this thing called commander S 01:17:16 you might want to check out scsh faq, plenty of solutions there ;p 01:18:08 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 01:19:41 -!- tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [No route to host] 01:20:05 tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:27 parolang` [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:55 -!- cp2 [n=will@unaffiliated/cp2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:26:14 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-129-98.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:27:47 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 01:29:48 -!- bobf_ [n=bob@host81-151-255-244.range81-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:31:39 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 01:35:48 -!- parolang` [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:37:42 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:38:54 anyone free to help me out with a detail in CLHS 3.2.4.4? 01:39:36 What's the detail? 01:40:08 I'm wondering whether #3 on symbols makes (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (export 'some-symbol (symbol-package 'some-symbol))) undefined 01:40:34 This makes it so that SOME-SYMBOL is external at [the end of] compile-time, but *not* at [the beginning of] load-time, which would violate #3. 01:41:08 So I figure there must be some further subtlety in the definition of "compile time" and "load time" here that I don't understand. 01:41:11 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:39 There is a bound on the consequences of violation. 01:41:57 I see 01:42:07 but is the code really a violation? 01:42:44 I don't believe so, but it might be. 01:44:05 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-125-18.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:29 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E46749.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:12 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:48:32 -!- tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [No route to host] 01:50:05 unfortunately the text appears to have been copied right from the issue, where presumably other members would have been able to ask the author directly. 01:53:30 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-07bc85031721bfdb] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:53:57 I think the next question, regardless of of the codes legal status, is "does it work?" 01:55:03 -!- stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [No route to host] 01:55:26 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-100-68.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:33 stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:55 my answer is "maybe sometimes" 01:57:09 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:57:38 I was led here by the rather confusing error message when loading the compiled swank-asdf: The following symbols need to be imported to # before they can be exported from that package: (swank:list-all-systems-known-to-asdf): 01:59:58 which is repeatable in the sense that I've seen it many times over several updates to Clozure and SLIME 02:00:57 I have already reported one Clozure "bug" that was merely a misreading of CLHS, and would rather tell the right group this time 02:01:52 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46749.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:02:28 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:45 taivas [n=tobin@124-171-2-217.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:03:20 piy] 02:03:54 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E46749.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 02:03:58 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:04:28 sunwukong [n=vukung@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 02:04:43 tobin8782 [n=tobin@124-171-2-217.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:05:05 -!- tobin8782 [n=tobin@124-171-2-217.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Client Quit] 02:05:11 ;lh 02:05:25 -!- taivas [n=tobin@124-171-2-217.dyn.iinet.net.au] has left #lisp 02:11:09 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 02:11:50 fe[nl]ix: have you had a chance to look at my patch to cffi-grovel? 02:13:04 -!- memnon [n=user@e178207052.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 02:13:28 tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:48 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:20:36 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:20:55 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C34B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 02:24:42 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-9d0c0c15ee50746c] has joined #lisp 02:26:35 Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:04 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:21 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068081188.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:34:55 -!- amblerc [n=user@24-180-81-97.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com] has quit ["signing-off"] 02:36:21 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:36:53 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:40:05 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:23 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Client Quit] 02:40:52 cp2 [n=will@unaffiliated/cp2] has joined #lisp 02:40:54 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 02:41:25 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:41:57 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:46:25 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 02:49:36 nullman [n=nullman@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:09 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit ["brief restart, pardon"] 02:50:51 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:15 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:54:55 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-148-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:55:03 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-148-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:08 Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:03 pjb, hi my friend! 03:02:11 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-100-68.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:03:08 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 03:03:12 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:40 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:08:05 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:10:15 -!- Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:10:25 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@189-92-176-73.3g.claro.net.br] has quit ["good night everybody!"] 03:10:46 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:47 -!- antgreen [n=Anthony@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 03:11:56 tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:13:12 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:01 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:00 tttssstt` [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:03 -!- tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [No route to host] 03:19:17 -!- stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:20:30 stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:13 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 03:27:12 -!- nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 03:33:04 -!- mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:33:54 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:34:48 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 03:35:01 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:36:27 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:37:13 bobf_ [n=bob@host81-151-248-128.range81-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 03:37:19 saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 03:37:34 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:38:01 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 03:43:12 -!- projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:45:41 Good morning. 03:47:27 projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has joined #lisp 03:51:56 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 03:55:19 morning. 03:55:24 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 03:57:51 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:48 -!- bobf_ [n=bob@host81-151-248-128.range81-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:59:37 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:00:46 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 04:01:06 -!- stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [No route to host] 04:01:46 -!- tttssstt` [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [No route to host] 04:03:29 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:05 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:21 dulouz [n=ross@dsl254-119-219.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:29 saikat__ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 04:14:13 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 04:15:08 hello, i was wondering what the preferred method of running hunchentoot is. would it be behind apache, or standalone and have some firewall rule forwarding requests from port 80 to a port that doesn't require priveledges? any other options? 04:15:39 rakista [n=rakista@c-71-59-128-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:09 Sirisian [n=Sirisian@ppp-70-229-36-36.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:14 *ace4016* chuckles 04:17:19 ace4016, ... 04:18:02 Is it true that lisp has floating point enumerations. If so can someone show me an example quickly? I saw a normal enumeration as: (deftype cardsuit () '(member club diamond heart spade)) 04:21:34 (deftype approximation-of-important-mathematical-constant () '(member 3.14159265 2.718281828 0.0)) 04:21:54 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:59 too sleepy, bbl 04:22:04 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:22:20 -!- dulouz [n=ross@dsl254-119-219.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:22:23 Riastradh, So are they not named? 04:22:48 *Sirisian* is just looking over language features that some languages have 04:23:30 (defconstant approximation-of-pi 3.14159265) ... (deftype a-o-i-m-c () `(member ,a-o-pi ,a-o-e ,a-o-zero)) 04:23:40 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-30-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:23:45 -!- rakista [n=rakista@c-71-59-128-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Rakista has left the planet"] 04:23:54 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 04:28:48 thank you 04:28:55 -!- Sirisian [n=Sirisian@ppp-70-229-36-36.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 04:30:36 You cant compare floating pont values like that! always (< (- val pi) epsilon) 04:31:28 opps (< (abs (- val pi)) epsilon) 04:34:20 where (defparameter epsilon double-float-epsion) or short-float-epsilon.. Remeber the default is float type is short-float 04:36:42 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dbad558a99f6a7c2] has joined #lisp 04:36:54 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:38:14 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:38:54 I make no guarantee that the code I quoted would be useful. 04:39:15 Riastradh: I think you are safe. I suspect Sirisian is not going to use it. 04:41:56 Newbie question: under linux, what is the general way to run a lisp program? Do you just start your lisp, load and run the program, do you use a shellscript or dump a core? 04:43:35 Sikander: The former for most day to day programming. 04:44:38 I usually have a Lisp session open at all times in Emacs into which I load whatever code I'm working on/using/whatever. 04:44:43 when used like that, the repl becomes a sort of shell, and each function a sort of program, no? 04:44:50 Sikander: depends on application and implementation. for webserving with SBCL I use the first method (plus swank); for short-lived utilities with clisp I use a shellscript, or with ecl a compiled binary 04:44:52 Yup. 04:45:20 Obviously if you are going to deploy a Lisp program into a particular environment you'll need to package it up for that environment. 04:45:42 arbscht: mentioned some ways. 04:45:51 So when running from an open lisp session, do you just (in-package ...) when you need to run something else, or do you have everything imported, or... 04:46:03 ,change-package in SLIME usually. 04:46:11 aha 04:46:21 tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:37 dang, I was sort of hoping to avoid the whole emacs/slime thing... :( 04:46:53 Don't. It's awesome. 04:47:08 Though I see how it does seem like a big pile of stuff to learn. 04:47:29 Yeah, well, I don't hate emacs or so, but I'm already used to vim... 04:47:31 *Sikander* ducks 04:47:43 Anyway, I'll probably just have to learn emacs... 04:47:57 I understand the whole philosophy and devel cycle works really well 04:48:00 Try nekthuth! 04:48:01 in emacs 04:48:11 *shameless self promotion* 04:48:16 it's just a lot of new commands/shortcuts to learn again 04:48:24 herbieB: nekthuth works with slime? 04:48:32 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Success] 04:48:41 herbieB: I'm using limp 04:48:45 Sikander: It odesn't talk to swank, no. It replicates that to some...extent. 04:48:47 is nekthuth better? 04:48:54 Sikander: Oh, if happy with limp, stay with that :) 04:49:01 Sikander: I wrote nekthuth, so you know...I'm kinda partial to it :P 04:49:10 Sikander: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Generating-Executables.html 04:49:20 herbieB: No, actually I don't necessarily like limp. I'm looking for what works best for me 04:49:35 since I know vim and am comfortable in it, I'd like to continue using that 04:49:42 but if all else fails, I'll switch to emacs 04:49:49 (no holy war for me!) 04:50:00 (especially in this group...) 04:50:03 You may end up there. Most people do. I just couldn't personally. 04:50:15 Anyway, I'm probably going to do debugger/introspection/package management in 0.4 in july 04:50:37 Given my record, it means I'll get one of those done, but that's better than nothing. 04:50:51 Dammit, there should be a way to have vim speak through a socket with swank (that's how slime does it if I understand correctly) 04:51:00 Yes and no. 04:51:14 slime/swank make heavy use of the fact that you've got emacslisp handy. 04:51:25 Ah.. 04:51:33 What we need, is Vim re-implemented in lisp 04:51:35 :) 04:51:40 So I needed to either replicated emacslisp in vim (EW!), write a swank wrapper (meybe?) 04:51:42 with slime support 04:51:46 Viper mode? 04:51:53 People say it's good, I've never tried it personally. 04:52:05 Tried that a long time ago and didn't like it. But then again, maybe it's improved quite a lot 04:52:48 Indeed. 04:54:02 Anyway, give it a try. If you run into problems, let me know :) I have no idea how its feature set compares to limp 04:54:08 herbieB: does nekthuth do the parens matching and automatic filling like limp? 04:54:28 Nekthuth adds very very little to vim itself. 04:54:32 herbieB: does it use screen? I'll have a look, it might be interesting 04:54:45 It does not use screen. 04:54:51 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-125-18.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 04:55:03 You can either boot up an instance within the vim process, or you can connect using sockets to some other sbcl process that you've opened up a listened on. 04:56:17 herbieB: I think you should have a look at limp. It adds some rather fancy stuff on the vim side (folding of toplevel sexps etc), but I think the connection to sbcl seems cleaner. limp communicates through screen with sbcl 04:56:47 herbieB: so if you can add the vim-side stuff, but keep the sbcl-side stuff, it might just be brilliant! 04:56:57 Yeah, my philsophy has been that every person customizes their vim the way they want. 04:57:17 And so I'll worry about that later :) 04:58:05 Yeah, you may be right. I have to admit though, even though I used vim for many years already, I know just enough to get it working the way I want. I have no idea about fancier things... 04:58:40 Nodnod. I just make liberal use of things like cib, cab, [(, %, etc 04:59:03 :) 04:59:05 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@209-161-236-91.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 04:59:17 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dbad558a99f6a7c2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:03:04 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:03:14 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-12-183.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 05:03:45 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-30-16.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 05:06:14 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:37 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:07:49 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:33 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:09:37 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has left #lisp 05:14:27 what does it mean when an ffi call pops up 'Unhandled memory fault at #x0" (in sbcl)? 05:14:33 it got a null pointer? or what? 05:14:42 -!- X-Scale2 [i=email@89.180.227.11] has quit [Client Quit] 05:17:09 sykopomp: likely, yes. 05:18:53 -!- tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [No route to host] 05:19:19 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-4-31.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:27:49 *hefner* probes the depths of mcclim's input wait handler, where events go to die 05:28:26 stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:56 tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:13 ... "Events! Today! We Go! Into McCLIM!"? :) 05:33:12 I really hate this code. It's an affront to all that is good and decent. 05:34:25 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@166.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 05:34:40 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:31 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 05:35:51 CLIM provides a plethora of ways to extend the input behavior of a stream, all of them huge kludges. 05:35:51 Invalid index 0: must be between 0 and -1. 05:36:06 hello 05:36:40 are you the new, improved specbot? 05:38:20 herbieB: fyi, asdf-installing nekthuth replies 404 05:39:01 asdf-install, the grim reaper of newbies? ;-) 05:39:07 Sikander: that's weird. The link works from the cliki 05:39:20 p_l: surely that's debian lisp packages. 05:39:33 herbieB: Hmmm, did I do something wrong? probably... :( Lemme check again 05:39:38 hefner: by the time I started using lisp I have switched to Gentoo 05:40:42 herbieB: D'oh, I don't understand. It's working now... Sorry 05:40:55 Sikander: w00t 05:41:43 herbieB: I didn't type it wrong; I used the same asdf-install line from my history, and now it works?! My system is showing windows-like behaviour! 05:42:32 Sikander: Intartron problems? 05:43:07 herbieB: hmmm... maybe... :) 05:48:29 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:29 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:49:25 herbieB: Works like a charm! I'll probably hack some things from limp on the vim side into it, but the connection from vim to sbcl is better than in limp! 05:49:41 herbieB: So another satisfied customer 05:50:07 Sikander: Goody :) 05:50:18 Sikander: I'm probably going to go to bed now, but email me if you have any questions/problems :) 05:50:28 clim frame-input-context-button-press-handler 05:50:29 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/28-3.html#_1527 05:50:35 herbieB: Sure, thanks again and goodnight 05:55:02 rread [n=rread@98.234.219.222] has joined #lisp 05:55:02 -!- rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:55:25 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:56:34 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 05:57:51 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:51 -!- rread [n=rread@98.234.219.222] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:59:38 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-30-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:01:29 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:07:14 splittist [n=dmurray@225-11.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:07:16 morning 06:07:28 morning 06:12:40 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 06:14:05 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 06:15:11 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 06:15:40 -!- jmbr_ is now known as jmbr 06:15:56 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:16:28 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.100.126] has joined #lisp 06:16:44 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has joined #lisp 06:16:58 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:19:31 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:22:37 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@166.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:23:11 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-148-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:24:14 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Time to die... eh, sleep..."] 06:27:07 kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:31 kmcorbett2 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:56 drwhen [n=doctor@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:29 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:30:58 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:31:04 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:40 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 06:44:19 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 06:45:02 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:46:01 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:46:36 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:55 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:54:40 -!- tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Success] 06:54:56 tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:13 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-11-53.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:59:08 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:59:14 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:00:14 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:01:00 what's anyone's opinion on the best free monospaced programming font? 07:01:22 lispm 07:01:29 proggytinytt 07:01:41 something not antialiased 07:01:45 I meant ProggyTinySZ. 07:01:52 (precisely what, I cannot say) 07:04:05 i like the symbolics lispm bitstream fonts but those are not free 07:04:33 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 07:04:51 sz = slashed zero? 07:04:54 Yeah. 07:05:07 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:41 jmbr [n=jmbr@166.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 07:09:53 codewitch [n=thecodew@CPE-124-177-50-95.vic.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:12:09 Who maintains CFFI? 07:12:35 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-47-238.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:13:45 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:14:02 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:14:37 courier and arial are coming out better than the proggytinysz 07:14:39 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 07:15:21 unfortunately 07:15:55 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:00 ahhh 07:16:14 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-30-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:16:20 choo! 07:16:23 *hefner* is impressed at the low frequency of kludgy dipping into CLIMI:: from the DREI package, feels bad about gunking it up. 07:16:51 how a whole day flies by when you're "having fun" with CSS quirks 07:16:56 i was talking about this: http://www.eurogaran.com/downloads/lispmfont/ 07:17:35 *hefner* ponders exporting some non-backend internals from CLIMI, for use by other internals 07:17:44 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:17:45 looks quite nice, the font. 07:18:50 yeah it does look pretty nice 07:19:28 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-105-150.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 07:19:38 ProggySquareSZ looks better than the Tiny 07:20:05 manic12: Which platform? 07:20:09 ASau [n=user@host18-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:20:39 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 07:20:39 i find lispm to be "big enough" for this 85x86 dpi 07:20:44 manic12: If you have the Vista fonts, I suggest Consolas. Otherwise, I like using DejaVu. 07:20:45 windows, using wglUseFontBitmaps 07:20:45 but not too big 07:21:16 terminus otoh has 12 (way too small) and 14 (somehow bulky and looks too big) 07:21:32 proggytinys look ugly :( 07:21:48 i've used them too, but for some reason don't like them 07:21:52 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:22:04 default font of everything looks great to me (yeah, i'm average) 07:22:35 Apparently I'm using 11pt Consolas here. 07:22:44 consolas is pretty cool 07:23:00 a little funky 07:23:17 vy pasted "SBCL "note"" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81262 07:23:28 Heh, IRC loooks funny using ITC Garamond Std Book. 07:23:46 Looks, too. 07:23:47 Does anybody have an idea about the above SBCL compilation note in http://paste.lisp.org/display/81262 paste? 07:24:23 manic12: I use it because it's very clear, to my eyes anyway, without getting muddled or hurting my aesthetic sense, unlike Courier New or FixedSys. 07:24:26 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:24:36 mega1 [n=mega@pool-03b37.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:24:40 DejaVu, the other alternative I mentioned, is also very nice, just not quite as pleasing as Consolas. 07:24:56 regular "Courier" looks nice on this gl window 07:25:16 DejaVu must be proportional tho 07:25:26 dejavu sans mono 07:25:27 No, DejaVu is monospace. 07:25:32 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:25:39 There are separate Sans and Sans Serif proportional versions. 07:25:47 hrm, the "j" is far over to the left 07:25:52 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:01 And it's an open source font, if that's to your liking. :-) 07:26:06 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:26:08 Font family, rather. 07:26:52 *Maddas* likes Monaco 07:27:01 let me try explicitly setting it to fixed pitch 07:27:12 (On OS X, anyway -- I haven't gotten anything else to render it the way I like it) 07:27:21 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:28:24 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:30:13 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:32:06 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-135-228.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:36 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:34:25 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@225-11.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:34:41 people who sell prescription drugs and people who make fonts come up with interesting names 07:34:53 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 07:35:11 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:37:15 Davidbrcz [n=david@193.52.24.125] has joined #lisp 07:38:42 -!- coderdad 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joined #lisp 08:04:14 hefner pasted "fixing mcclim/drei text pasting for Xof" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81268 08:04:24 that's the input editor and the text gadget 08:04:36 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@166.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:04:40 climacs support left as an exercise to whoever. 08:05:33 blist 08:05:47 argh, wrong window sorry 08:05:54 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 08:07:52 -!- ASau [n=user@host18-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:08:45 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:08:56 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:11:40 ASau [n=user@host18-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 08:16:03 -!- ASau [n=user@host18-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:17:07 aaah wednesday 08:18:28 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@193.52.24.125] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:18:47 Is that good or bad? 08:18:50 vy: param-size->octet-vector is passed the length of something. Such a length is always <= 2^32, so integer-length will always return a value <= 32, so the error will never be triggered. 08:18:57 spiaggia: very good (: 08:19:09 Agreed. It's workout day. 08:19:36 tic: Quite the opposite, it's the one day that is *not* workout day (: It is, however, random eating day (: 08:19:49 and more lisp hacking! 08:19:59 oic! 08:21:09 hefner: hey, looks like my procrastination has paid off 08:21:23 and my insomnia 08:21:35 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 08:22:31 The twin mothers of invention. (Now there's an image...) 08:23:27 there's probably a market for that 08:24:02 hefner: I'd be interested in hearing any thoughts you have about mcclim project managment 08:24:08 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:24:10 splittist too, come to that 08:24:31 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:24:35 I don't want it to die 08:28:17 Xof: what would count as not being dead? 08:29:03 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.100.126] has quit ["Log this!"] 08:29:26 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.100.126] has joined #lisp 08:29:56 ignas [n=ignas@78.59.166.221] has joined #lisp 08:30:03 MrSpec_ [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 08:32:15 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:33:13 Joreji [n=user@43-050.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:34:32 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:35:51 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:19 it's not much closer to dead than it has been in the past, is it? 08:40:31 elderk [n=zk@122-57-254-205.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:40:54 (although the lack of the usual holiday season upswing in hacking isn't encouraging) 08:45:15 morning 08:45:16 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 08:45:53 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:45:56 morning 08:48:11 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:51:11 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:51:14 *hefner* doesn't know anything about project management, goes to sleep. 08:52:22 xan [n=xan@174.Red-79-150-43.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:50 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:54:59 leon` [n=leon@213.87.80.38] has joined #lisp 08:56:04 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:12 ASau [n=user@host18-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 09:01:27 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:10:44 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 09:13:08 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:13:18 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:13:57 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:16:45 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:18:07 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:18:18 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:18:21 asksol_ [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 09:19:27 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:20:02 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6ED2A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:18 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:28 a long, long time ago (months I think) there was an offtopic discussion in here mainly about literate programming (iirc, maybe it was another channel, though)... 09:22:54 I don't want to restart it, but someone mentioned using emacs to typeset source code for inclusion in a book... 09:22:59 Anyone remember this? 09:23:09 thijso: maybe it was gigamonkey? 09:23:19 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@86.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:23:20 no.. that I would have remembered... 09:23:23 ISTR he has very specialised elisp stuff for PCL 09:23:25 ok 09:23:43 I don't know any other authors who are around 09:24:15 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 09:24:33 yeah... I don't think it was an author author... more someone working as a coder and using literate programming to document his code, and using emacs to do that (which outputted it in tex iirc) 09:24:35 -!- saikat__ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 09:25:08 I'm basically looking for something that can typeset source code (including syntax highlighting etc) for code reviews... haven't really been able to find good stuff... 09:25:28 but this is not the channel for this... thought I'd ask is someone remembered the previous discussion though 09:25:35 s/is/if/ 09:25:43 a2ps? 09:25:46 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-76.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 09:26:07 frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 09:27:05 tic: yeah, started looking at that, but I couldn't find color output (though I didn't really look very hard)... is a2ps the recommended way? I'd like to be able to do it from emacs (as I'm in there already)... maybe just write an elisp helper to do that then... 09:27:21 lukego has/had pbook.el 09:29:49 splittist: that was it! 09:29:55 thanks 09:30:02 -!- leon` [n=leon@213.87.80.38] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:30:11 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 09:30:34 *splittist* feels the day hasn't been a complete waste (: 09:31:41 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-41-180.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:31:45 hello 09:31:56 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:33:02 leon`` [n=leon@213.87.87.39] has joined #lisp 09:33:11 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181130081.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:33:53 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:34:04 free_thinker [n=willijar@134.151.144.246] has joined #lisp 09:36:10 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:36:16 -!- codewitch [n=thecodew@CPE-124-177-50-95.vic.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 09:36:19 What a nice web application framework!! http://web4r.org/ (yes, I am the author. lol) 09:39:34 eek! 09:39:49 by setting the 'arc challenge', PG has encouraged people to reproduce arc! 09:43:36 rsynnott: so do you expect somebody to produce a better arc? (: 09:44:46 oh, that arc challenge. that kind of reproduction. 09:49:54 I google arc challenge, and I find something about writing the shortest piece of code for generating some webpages ? 09:49:58 that it? 09:52:48 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 09:57:27 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:59:13 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:00:51 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:01:15 yakman_ [n=bot@94-194-134-155.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:01:15 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-119-129.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 10:01:54 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:03:00 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:03:40 why square brackets? 10:04:18 X-Scale [i=email@89-180-166-7.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 10:04:37 nikodemus: Why do I use square brackets for sml? 10:04:48 yes 10:05:39 without looking at detail, they seem to be used where a regular macro would work as well. reader-macros are harder to debug and understand as macroexpand (aka M-RET) will not work on them 10:05:59 I used to define macros for each html tags like (html/ (body/ "hello world")), but I cannot do that to generate xml because xml tags are not only defined ones. 10:06:11 they do provide a syntactical clue of the fact that something else is happening 10:06:17 when i use (eval) to (defun) a function which already exists, it gives a style-warning, and i suspect there exists a restart i can call, how can i find out the name of the restart or more details ? 10:07:05 it gives a style warning to let you know of the re-definition 10:07:18 yes, but that style warning stops the redefintion of the function 10:07:25 i'm not saying you should not use reader macros, just interested in _why_ you need them -- or if you don't strictly need them, what is the advantage they provide against their general disadvantages 10:07:32 it only happens with (eval) and not with the REPL, i suspect the REPL triggers a restart 10:08:20 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit ["HULK ANGRY! HULK DISCONNECT!"] 10:08:22 -!- leon`` [n=leon@213.87.87.39] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:08:31 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:08:54 tomoyuki28jp: by walking the body you can generate arbitrary tags, though. but i realize that code walking as a solution to inline html/xml generation does not appeal to everyone 10:08:54 oh wait, i found the function compute-restarts 10:09:23 yakman_: this does not happen here 10:09:37 you don't need compute-restarts to muffle the warning if that's what you want 10:09:57 (handler-bind ((style-warning #'muffle-warning)) (eval ...)) 10:10:04 its more then a warning, the defun doesnt take effect 10:10:09 nikodemus: it also doesn't distinguish html from sexps. but this off course is a moot point as most lispers probably prefer seeing sexps instead of some other arbitrary format 10:10:13 ok ill try that 10:10:47 minion: tell yakman_ about lisppaste 10:10:47 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 10:10:56 you can paste the warning you get there 10:11:13 nikodemus: What kind of syntax are you imaging with a regular macro and without a reader macro? Can you give me an example? 10:12:51 tomoyuki28jp: eg. the kind used by CL-WHO 10:13:19 nikodemus: okay, I got it. Because it's gonna be a bit longer. 10:13:28 yakman pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81271 10:13:42 oh 10:13:44 nice bot 10:14:11 tomoyuki28jp: yes, there is an increased verbosity in terms of characters, true enough 10:15:02 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has quit ["bye"] 10:15:06 yakman_: HANDLER-CASE unwinds when it sees the style-warning, so the redefinition does not occur 10:15:15 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Operation timed out] 10:15:22 ok 10:15:33 yakman_: the warning doesn't prevent the redefinition, as you can see if you read your own paste! 10:15:36 nikodemus: For example, http://paste.lisp.org/display/81272. It's very short. 10:15:41 use handler-bind like i showed above 10:15:48 ok 10:15:54 matimago it only prevents it when handler-case is used 10:16:02 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:16:02 Yes. 10:16:06 tomoyuki28jp: right, fair enough 10:16:15 yakman_: do you need to handle warnings? 10:16:40 well thats just an example, in my app it catches all conditions 10:16:46 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 10:16:54 yakman_: you could just handle the ERROR conditions... 10:16:56 and style-warning is one of them, so thats why i noticed 10:17:03 hmm 10:17:04 ok then 10:17:11 yakman_: notice that some non-error conditions are used to manage eg. user interruptions (C-c). 10:17:21 s/are/may be/ 10:17:27 yakman_: having a HANDLER-CASE for arbitrary conditions is a very bad idea 10:17:37 ok 10:17:44 because of the user interactions i suppose ? 10:17:56 yakman_: a library you use may use non-error conditions for communication between layers 10:18:09 ok 10:18:22 codewitch [n=thecodew@CPE-124-177-50-95.vic.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:19:07 so suppose it wasnt style-warning but something else 10:19:13 how did you find out it was muffle-warning? 10:19:16 Why does lispbuilder no longer include opengl? 10:19:25 compute-restarts only says abort is there 10:19:45 (hander-case (handler-bind ((warning #'muffle-warning)) ...whatever...) (serious-condition (e) (note-problem e)) ; is the strongest i would recommend 10:21:08 and replacing SERIOUS-CONDITION with ERROR and WARNING with STYLE-WARNING would be better: generally speaking the way you want to handle full warnings and serious conditions that are not errors warrants careful consideration 10:21:42 so serious-condition is a superclass of error and warning 10:21:48 do you want to adopt fail-stop and just crash if it's something you're not sure of? or is it worth trying to soldier on? 10:22:02 superclass or error, but not warning 10:22:18 before today, it caught all conditions and printed them out 10:22:19 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:22:24 it was an irc bot that did !eval 10:22:29 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 10:22:51 a subclass of serious-condition should be used always when the condition is signalled using ERROR, and a subclass or WARNING (which includes STYLE-WARNING) should be used when the condition is signalled using WARN 10:22:57 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 10:23:31 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.15.250] has joined #lisp 10:24:26 if the signalling is done with just SIGNAL, then the condition should be neither a WARNING nor a SERIOUS-CONDITION 10:24:40 the only exception if when the call to SIGNAL is there explicitly to pass one of the aforementioned ones to a higher layer (a bad idea most of the time -- if you don't know what to do with it, you should not be handling it) 10:24:55 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-41-180.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:25:53 ok then 10:25:57 yakman_: if you want to add logging for any unhandled condition, you can do that: (handler-bind ((condition #'log-condition)) ...) right at the top 10:25:57 thanks for all your help :) 10:26:11 the difference between HANDLER-BIND and HANDLER-CASE is worth learning :) 10:26:34 no prob 10:26:37 i know it, but not very well it seems 10:26:58 do you have the pcl book? iirc it describes this fairly well 10:27:29 yes, thats where i read it 10:27:35 pcl = practical common lisp right? 10:27:47 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-164.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:27:54 yes 10:28:08 he does it with that file parsing example 10:28:11 was cool 10:29:12 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:29:42 -!- mega1 [n=mega@pool-03b37.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:29:45 -!- yakman_ [n=bot@94-194-134-155.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:30:41 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 10:37:35 benny` [n=benny@i577A2DD0.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:38:49 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A2DD0.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:41:44 thijso & splittist: thanks for bringing up pbook.el, looks awesome 10:47:07 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:48:18 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:48:27 -!- codewitch [n=thecodew@CPE-124-177-50-95.vic.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 10:48:41 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:17 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit ["KVIrc 3.2.6 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/"] 10:52:24 ocnzhao [n=hgsghrnj@122.159.58.197] has joined #lisp 10:52:31 -!- ocnzhao [n=hgsghrnj@122.159.58.197] has left #lisp 10:56:18 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-13534.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 10:57:52 I can turn a list into an array with (make-array (list (length my-list)) :initial-contents my-list), but how can I convert an array to a list? 10:58:36 (coerce array 'list) assuming that your array is one-dimensional 10:59:08 similarly you can turn a list into a vector with (coerce list 'vector) 10:59:09 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:59:23 ah, k. Thanks 10:59:33 I was looking in the conses/arrays/sequences sections of the clhs 11:08:35 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:09:34 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:09:55 cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 11:13:56 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:14:16 cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 11:16:57 -!- benny` is now known as benny 11:18:17 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:18:37 cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 11:18:51 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-164.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:20:26 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 11:20:55 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 11:21:33 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:22:54 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-9d0c0c15ee50746c] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:24:08 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f5430.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:27:43 slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-160-36.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 11:28:17 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 11:34:29 -!- elderk [n=zk@122-57-254-205.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 11:35:52 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-105-150.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:37:19 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:38:01 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:40:01 CL condition system style guide: http://random-state.net/log/3453016738.html 11:40:06 comments appreciated 11:40:19 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:41:19 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 11:42:14 inspired by the trouble yakman was having earlier 11:42:19 delqna [n=delqna@p54A36324.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:55 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:46:19 nikodemus: perhaps one sentence about the difference between H-BIND and H-CASE? (Or link them to the hyperspec, or KMP's paper, or...) 11:47:55 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:48:16 -!- ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:49:30 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 11:50:07 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:50:20 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 11:51:29 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.15.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:52:16 better? 11:52:33 -!- dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:52:55 yep. (Or 11:53:40 well, since you linked h-b and h-c, could as well link all other symbols/functions/classes 11:53:47 'Short version: HANDLER_CASE always unwinds; HANDLER-BIND lets you inspect the condition and then decide whether to unwind or not' 11:53:50 ) 11:54:52 jdz: too much work :) my blog system is not smart enough to make automagic CLHS links, and i don't have the time to add that now... 11:54:55 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:56:00 that should be a client-side function anyway, so you can link to the local version of the hyperspec (; 11:56:18 i want to keep the mention about logging there, though. added "always unwinds" to H-C, though. 11:56:30 though. i keep saying though 11:57:06 splittist: what are you working on these days? 11:57:38 nikodemus: little or nothing ): Too much Real Life (TM) 11:57:49 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has joined #lisp 11:57:59 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 11:59:15 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:01 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:06:27 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 12:08:01 BryanWB [n=BryanWB@113.199.165.90] has joined #lisp 12:08:13 -!- BryanWB [n=BryanWB@113.199.165.90] has left #lisp 12:09:24 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.4.23] has joined #lisp 12:09:29 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:09:33 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:11:16 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:25 nikodemus: the table in commercial support is in alphabetical order by last name? 12:11:48 leon` [n=leon@213.87.87.66] has joined #lisp 12:11:52 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:12:48 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 12:13:25 or first :) 12:13:50 Aaron Aardvark 12:13:52 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 12:13:59 wins 12:14:27 -!- leon` [n=leon@213.87.87.66] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:14:30 putting steel bank studio last was the easy self-effacing choise -- since any abc order would put xof first :) 12:15:32 -!- tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:15:53 splittist: Aaable Aaableman wins better. 12:17:09 True. AAAAA Acme Lisp Contracting - dial 1-800-CAR CADR 12:17:15 :D 12:23:57 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:24:59 -!- Joreji [n=user@43-050.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:28:57 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:29:54 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:55 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:30:09 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:30:51 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:43 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:31:50 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-23-131.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:32:56 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:34:21 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:34 carbocalm [n=user@64.40.185.82] has joined #lisp 12:35:36 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087FBC5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:42 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 12:44:43 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 12:45:52 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:48:08 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-3-163.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:49:06 good afternoon 12:49:07 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:49:56 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:46 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 12:50:58 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:52:05 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-160-36.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:52:38 -!- asksol_ [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has 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[n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 13:49:42 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@93-42-84-226.ip85.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:49:44 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:49:44 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-23-131.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:49:44 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 13:49:44 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has joined #lisp 13:49:44 rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:44 guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 13:49:44 glogic [n=glogic@5ess.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:44 nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 13:49:44 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 13:49:58 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:50:34 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.100.126] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:50:48 Can someone point in the direction of a good tutorial on using the (any) lisp debugger? 13:51:26 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.100.126] has joined #lisp 13:51:31 not tutorial, but http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Debugger.html 13:51:45 thanks, I'll check it out 13:52:06 anyway, you probably want to use slime's debugger, so check out slime docs too 13:53:09 I have slime and sbcl (1.0) set up currently 13:53:15 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.177] has joined #lisp 13:53:18 1.0? 13:53:30 -!- rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:53:30 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:53:30 -!- glogic [n=glogic@5ess.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:53:30 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:53:30 -!- guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:53:30 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:53:30 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-23-131.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:53:30 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:53:30 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:53:38 that's like 2 and a half years 13:53:41 older version for PowerPC (appple ibook) 13:54:39 if you haven't watched yet --- http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 13:54:50 Yes, the later binaries for PowerPC give bus errors for some reason 13:55:13 it covers debugger too, and great overall, though slightly outdated 13:55:34 I watched some of that video but a lot of it went over my head. I'm new to functional programming 13:55:35 rdad: you'd better report them 13:55:39 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:55:39 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-23-131.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:55:39 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 13:55:39 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has joined #lisp 13:55:39 rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:39 guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 13:55:39 glogic [n=glogic@5ess.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:39 nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 13:55:39 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 13:55:54 that's ok, lisp is not about functional programming 13:55:57 Davse_Ba1se [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has joined #lisp 13:56:00 I did, it is already documented on the mailing list 13:56:47 konr [n=konrad@143.106.73.150] has joined #lisp 13:56:47 nicktastique [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 13:57:06 you can also try Clozure CL 13:57:06 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:41 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 13:59:01 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-100.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:59:16 Hmm.. closure seems interesting 13:59:22 Clozure* 13:59:23 rdad: get the sources if you feel up to it -- you should be able to build a new one using 1.0 14:00:05 i'm making a new sbcl release today, and will also put up new PPC binaries, at least for darwin, possibly for linux as well 14:00:07 nikodemus: I did that also 14:00:17 rdad: didn't work? 14:00:19 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-173-246.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:00:22 *stassats* got some sbcl build failures, trying to reproduce 14:00:37 It compiled to completion but a few tests failed 14:00:38 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-164.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:01:25 rdad: that's probably nothing to worry about. i'm not overly surprised if the PPC backend has expected -- essentially harmless -- failures not marked as expected 14:02:05 especially backtrace and floating point exception related things 14:02:11 possibly dynamic-extent too 14:02:41 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-23-131.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:03:41 nikodemus: I emailed the results to developer-mailing lists: This was printed at the end => 14:03:41 WARNING! Some of the contrib modules did not build successfully or pass 14:03:41 their self-tests. Failed contribs:" sb-bsd-sockets, sb-introspect, sb-md5, sb-simple-streams 14:03:42 yep, build failure with sb-unicode disabled 14:03:45 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:03:59 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 14:04:17 nikodemus: do you get it or i'd write to sbcl-devel? 14:04:30 hello 14:04:30 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:35 stassats: i've got it, building now 14:04:47 rdad: just a sec 14:04:54 compiling (DEFUN OUTPUT-VECTOR ...) size mismatch: # is a :BYTE and # is a :QWORD. 14:04:59 on x86_64 14:06:01 rdad: when did you post that? can't find the email 14:07:19 Ah, you are right. I did not respond to the mailing list. Instead it was a reply to: "Gábor Melis" 14:07:25 I will re-mail now 14:08:52 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:09:01 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:09:07 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-119-129.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 14:09:12 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:11:29 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [Success] 14:11:44 Sorry, noob mistake on my part. 14:14:20 stassats: i see it 14:14:31 it's almost certainly my fault... 14:15:51 -!- z` [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:16:59 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:17:40 hm. maybe not 14:18:32 nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:41 G'morning all. 14:19:35 morning nyef 14:20:13 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 14:20:33 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit ["bye"] 14:21:03 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:23:42 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-13534.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:24:36 dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:29 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:31:26 -!- konr [n=konrad@143.106.73.150] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:33:23 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 14:33:30 Greetings. 14:34:49 tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:34:55 greetings tmh 14:35:48 -!- tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:36:07 ugh, some another build failure 14:36:37 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.177] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:39:05 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:07 konr [n=konrad@143.106.73.150] has joined #lisp 14:42:04 stassats: i think i have the other one -- if i'm right the bug has been there since 1.0.24.35, but possibly masked until recently 14:43:20 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:45:57 shortly after make-genesis-2.sh i get The name "SB!EVAL" does not designate any package. 14:46:03 with sb-eval disabled 14:47:42 or i just had different customize-target-features through different stages, could this cause the problem? 14:48:01 -!- nzodd [n=nzodd@wsip-70-183-4-66.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:48:50 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@192.167.204.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:48:57 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:49:10 cavesnow [n=cavesnow@192.167.204.8] has joined #lisp 14:49:18 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:15 -!- Davse_Ba1se [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has quit [Client Quit] 14:52:23 quite possibly -- i know i've never tried to build like that, and i'm not sure offhand if we process that file once or multiple times 14:52:29 nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:10 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@192.167.204.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:53:15 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 14:53:15 ok, we'll see if this fixes the first one... 14:53:30 cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 14:54:28 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 14:56:25 *stassats* is awaiting for builds to end, 10 minutes is too long 14:56:27 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-148-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:43 hey, what happened to my coffee? it's gone 14:57:12 stassats: wimp 14:57:21 in my day, builds took 90-120 minutes 14:57:27 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:57:43 and we had to think before building, not just do random walks through code space :-) 14:57:49 Is there a way to muffle SB-INT:SIMPLE-COMPILER-NOTEs? 14:57:55 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:58:27 *michaelw* preemptively gets off Xof's lawn 14:58:36 young whippersnappers indeed 14:58:47 *stassats* is doing two builds at a time 14:58:47 I am about to arrive at the channel average age 14:58:48 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:59:22 multicore and all those modern fancy things 14:59:31 -!- ASau [n=user@host18-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 15:00:02 feh, right analysis, wrong fix 15:00:05 stassats: was that you volunteering to parallelize the build? 15:00:46 splittist: nah, i'm testing different set of features 15:01:07 rjack: (handler-bind ((sb-ext:compiler-note #'muffle-condition)) ...) or lexically (declare (sb-ext:muffle-condition sb-ext:compiler-note)) 15:01:10 rjack pasted "muffle-conditions doesn't muffle sb-int:simple-compiler-note" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81287 15:01:22 -!- kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 15:01:29 ok, sb-eval isn't reproduced 15:01:48 but disabling :sb-source-locations lands me into ldb 15:02:33 nikodemus: sb-ext:compiler-note does not work either 15:03:07 rjack: what sbcl version is that? 15:03:26 SBCL 1.0.19-gentoo 15:03:35 i'm 90% sure they come from make-instance, and 50% sure this is fixed in newer versions 15:04:25 ok, upgrading 15:04:28 because they come from make-instance, the lexical muffling doesn't work, since it's not in scope 15:05:49 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:06:49 mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:06:49 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:07:43 LiamH: Do you have a moment to look at some pastes for NUMBER-EQUAL? 15:07:55 OK 15:08:32 actually, the notes bother me because they confuse lisp-unit assertions 15:08:48 LiamH: Good. Sorry I haven't resolved it. I got sidetracked, but have time to get it finished today. 15:09:14 pkhuong: aroundp 15:10:09 Drakeson [n=user@206-248-174-113.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:10:20 tmh pasted "NUMBER-EQUAL for LiamH" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81290 15:10:47 Hmm, I should have annotated that more. 15:11:17 how would you assign a common lisp function to a key in emacs using slime? 15:12:08 Xof: do you expect trouble if character-reg becomes a dword on non-unicode builds (x86/x86-64) 15:12:33 Drakeson: something like (slime-eval `(cl:+ 1 2)) 15:12:39 pkhuong's move-if stuff breaks without unicode because we can't cmov into a byte register 15:13:11 ...and i'm looking for a minimal fix for the release 15:13:29 LiamH: The main difference between the 2 is how the default epsilon is determined. I ran into a problem with version A because when I coerced single-float to double floats, they weren't within the 2*DOUBLE-FLOAT-EPSILON. 15:14:29 tmh: I see. How does default-epsilon relate to epsilon? 15:14:30 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@59.92.159.86] has joined #lisp 15:14:30 stassats: cool. thanks. 15:14:45 LiamH: With Version B, I run into a problem because DEFAULT-EPSILON is a generic function that has no specializations for integers. 15:15:16 tmh: so define such a method? 15:15:54 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:17:01 nikodemus: not sure 15:17:04 nikodemus: what about sb-source-locations? would it be better for me to report this to launchpad? 15:17:11 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 15:17:16 LiamH: And return zero or 2*DOUBLE-FLOAT-EPSILON? 15:17:50 stassats: at least it makes sure i won't forget it... 15:17:59 tmh: zero I suppose; you're only supplying a default, right? so the user can change it if necessary 15:18:03 ok then 15:18:35 i'm semi-willing to release an sbcl that cannot be built without sb-eval, though i'd prefer not to, but breaking non-unicode builds is more serious 15:19:10 no, sb-eval is ok 15:19:19 LiamH: OK, that's what I was thinking, just needed a sanity check. I've made a fairly large revision to the internals and am making sure it doesn't effect the use. 15:19:44 i retested without touching c-t-f, and it's ok 15:20:02 oops, misunderstood. same thing applies, though 15:20:09 tmh: I'm still not clear on the relation (if any) between 'epsilon the argument and #'default-epsilon being called in the body 15:20:39 ok, changing the register size is not the solution 15:21:03 too many #!+/-sb-unicodes in the backend 15:21:11 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.22.70] has joined #lisp 15:22:15 LiamH: 'epsilon the argument defaults to *epsilon* which is default NIL. So, if the user doesn't supply 'epsilon or set *epsilon*, #'default-epsilon returns a value based on the number1 and number2 arguments. I'll paste. 15:22:53 tmh pasted "DEFAULT-EPSILON for LiamH" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81291 15:24:10 tmh: shouldn't default-epsilon depend somehow on epsilon? It seems confusing. I got to go, BBIAB. 15:24:29 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 15:24:34 LiamH: OK, see you later and I'll try to make it clear. 15:25:11 notsonerdysunny pasted "calculator with lex and yacc" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81292 15:25:51 notsonerdysunny annotated #81292 "system definition file" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81292#1 15:26:10 _REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 15:26:41 -!- _REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Client Quit] 15:26:56 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 15:27:52 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:49 *stassats* only wanted to get unithreaded build and got distracted 15:30:21 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:32:55 ok, this should work -- disabling whole MOVE-IF/CHAR on non-unicode builds 15:33:39 hey, workingness! 15:34:43 r1nu- [n=debian@ppp-94-67-142-250.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:35:49 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@87.196.6.12] has joined #lisp 15:35:50 -!- Corun is now known as Corun|away 15:37:41 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:38:11 djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 15:39:50 unable to do inline float truncate (cost 5) because: The result is a (VALUES (INTEGER 2 18446744073709551615) &OPTIONAL), not a (SIGNED-BYTE 64) why can't (unsigned-byte 64) be inlined too? 15:39:51 15:39:53 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 15:39:56 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:40:53 oh (unsigned-byte 63), is enough for me, nevermind 15:41:15 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.22.70] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:41:39 -!- asksol_ [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:43:25 mrscheme [n=user@209.120.179.205] has joined #lisp 15:44:11 jmbr [n=jmbr@237.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:44:28 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:44:51 -!- notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@59.92.159.86] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:44:56 Joreji [n=user@42-104.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:47:15 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:47:21 -!- Orest is now known as Orest^bnc 15:47:43 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 15:48:04 -!- Orest^bnc is now known as Orest 15:48:13 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.121.121] has joined #lisp 15:48:20 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:52:46 dys` [n=andreas@p5B31759B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:10 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 15:55:32 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 15:56:08 -!- Joreji [n=user@42-104.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:56:58 stassats: non-unicode builds fixed in 1.0.28.76 -- thanks for the heads up! 15:57:25 milanj [n=milan@93.87.142.252] has joined #lisp 15:58:07 Joreji [n=user@42-104.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:58:45 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B316B7E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:58:47 looking at sb-source-locations now 15:58:52 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:58:54 (and PPC) 15:59:26 erig [n=erig@gw0.brightech.com] has joined #lisp 16:00:24 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 16:01:24 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 16:03:55 -!- r1nu- [n=debian@ppp-94-67-142-250.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["Quit *.*"] 16:04:49 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:05:54 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@87.196.6.12] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:06:55 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-13534.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 16:08:27 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:30 rvirding [n=chatzill@192.165.65.245] has joined #lisp 16:13:59 -!- Corun|away is now known as Corun 16:14:01 -!- jawn- [n=dicks@daemon.Stanford.EDU] has left #lisp 16:14:24 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:14:37 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:15:26 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:16:46 cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 16:16:56 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:17:18 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:17:50 nyef pasted "Possibly for early 1.0.29." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81295 16:18:21 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@192.165.65.245] has left #lisp 16:21:06 -!- cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Success] 16:21:08 cavesnow__ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 16:22:56 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-3-163.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:23:14 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483C59E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:17 nikodemus: Does paste 81295 look okay to you? 16:24:54 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-211-128.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:27:25 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:28:12 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47105.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:26 -!- cavesnow__ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:28:46 cavesnow__ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 16:34:32 -!- cavesnow__ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:34:35 cavesnow__ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 16:35:08 -!- dys` is now known as dys 16:37:24 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78.59.166.221] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:38:27 looks good to me 16:39:02 willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:40:47 source-locationless builds seems to have been broken for a while, so i'm not going to fix them today 16:41:01 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:41:18 slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-132-140.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 16:42:21 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-132-140.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:43:46 slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-132-140.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 16:45:01 HG` [n=wells@xdslgm121.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:45:43 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 16:47:03 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-132-140.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Client Quit] 16:51:05 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 16:51:35 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 16:51:36 saikat__ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 16:51:45 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:53:18 -!- frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:54:04 saikat___ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 16:55:35 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:55:41 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:55:59 I have a macro that expands into a form that contains a call to defvar. I have functions in the same file that refer to the var declared by defvar. Is there a way to get around the whole undeclared free variable thing? Am I supposed to be wrapping something with eval-when? 16:56:37 you can proclaim it special 16:56:42 -!- rdad is now known as rdad_afk 16:56:54 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-2f1d9a1a6d9cd2dd] has joined #lisp 16:57:15 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.154.72] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:57:16 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:57:22 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.187.177] has joined #lisp 16:57:31 Sounds like some sort of ordering lossage, at least. 16:57:32 stassats: within the macro? 16:57:46 Is the macro supposedly invoked before the variable is used? 16:57:56 possibly the easiest thing is to make sure the use of that macro that expands into the DEFVAR is compiled before forms what use the variable 16:58:08 nyef: yeah. 16:58:22 Then check the toplevelness of the resulting defvar. 16:58:56 sykopomp: if you can't make it toplevel 16:59:35 nyef: I'm not sure what you mean. 16:59:43 hmph, i need to touch source to build on my ppc/darwin, since it's 10.3, and we have the 10.4 version thing in Config.*-darwin for tiger compatibility 16:59:49 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@225-11.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["hot hot hot"] 17:00:04 is there even such a thing as a ppc leopard? 17:00:19 -!- cavesnow__ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:00:24 sykopomp: do you know what top level is? defvar is treated specially by compiler if it's in toplevel 17:00:36 cavesnow__ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 17:00:53 Hey, speaking of having to tweak source to build, I need to add -m32 to compiler and linker flags in a few places to build an x86 version on my x86-64 box. 17:01:06 stassats: I guess I don't. The defvar is within a let, so I assume that means it's not toplevel. 17:01:10 sykopomp: (let (...) (defvar ...)) ; the defvar is not at toplevel 17:01:17 sykopomp: right, it isn't 17:01:26 conversely, eg. macrolet and progn preserve toplevelness 17:02:35 you can do (defmacro foo () (proclaim '(special *foo*)) `(defvar *foo* 10)) 17:02:45 easy way around is to make it `(progn (declaim (special ,var)) (let ...)) instead of `(let ...) -- but having a DEFVAR inside a let sounds a bit odd 17:02:53 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.187.177] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:03:01 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.187.177] has joined #lisp 17:03:27 stassats: better expand into a declaim -- explicit side-effects on the compiler environment like that are a bit icky 17:03:57 *nikodemus* is with the style police 17:03:59 nikodemus: if macro would be expanded at the top level, yes 17:04:57 its doubly icky if the expansion isn't at the toplevel :) 17:04:59 got it! Thanks :) 17:05:23 I rearranged where the defvar was placed, and replaced it with a setf 17:05:40 -!- rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:06:14 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-12-183.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:06:40 does anyone have a ppc/tiger or ppc/leopard? 17:07:16 nikodemus: I have a ppc/leopard which I would have to find space for and boot up 17:07:28 how interesting is what you want to do with it? 17:07:32 -!- MrSpec_ is now known as mrspec 17:10:15 kpreid: build an sbcl binary, eventually 17:10:41 or alternatively, test that the one i've build on panther works 17:11:55 -!- saikat__ [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:13:25 nikodemus: considering, ...let me know if you don't get other volunteers 17:13:28 (busy) 17:14:31 Prod me in another couple of hours; I may have a PowerPC running (a slightly old) Leopard handy. 17:14:48 It's lunchtime now, though. 17:14:50 *Riastradh* vanishes. 17:14:59 *foosh* 17:15:34 nzodd [n=nzodd@wsip-70-183-4-66.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:23 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:16:44 -!- mrspec is now known as spec[away] 17:18:25 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:04 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-183-3.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 17:25:38 -!- drwhen [n=doctor@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:26:09 cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 17:26:32 -!- cavesnow__ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:28:55 -!- Joreji [n=user@42-104.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has left #lisp 17:30:21 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:30:29 cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 17:30:52 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 17:30:53 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:31:45 Joreji [n=user@42-104.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:34:46 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:34:49 cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 17:35:46 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:36:28 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:37 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-81c6757c9564af0c] has joined #lisp 17:44:42 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslgm121.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:45:13 is there a way to coerce a fixnum into a bit-vector, without writing a loop yourself? 17:46:01 what for? 17:46:10 yvdriess: no 17:46:29 oh my: http://crap.fi/archive/6108.png 17:46:36 for maintaining a piece of code of somone that never heard of logand etc 17:46:52 abstract it? 17:47:18 no. I don't have time to clean up his spaghetti code 17:47:21 :P 17:47:23 also, ldb and friends 17:47:35 cp2: Looks reasonable to me, given the historical context. 17:48:13 -!- gigamonkey` [n=user@adsl-99-2-148-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:48:19 that's a punch card, right? 17:48:35 no, it's a paper form 17:48:39 stassats`: No, it's a form for directing someone to create some number of punch cards. 17:48:45 read the bottom 17:48:47 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-148-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:48:50 you write in that and a punch operator produces one card per line of that form 17:48:58 md` [n=user@stip-srk131.195-146-143.telecom.sk] has joined #lisp 17:49:00 ah no they mean another form 17:49:07 i see 17:49:12 Programmer time is far too valuable to be spent typing. 17:49:44 nyef: no no, that's not it. punch card machine time is far too valuable to waste on programmers. 17:49:44 SYNTAX ERROR 17:50:03 and punch card per every line of that form, right? 17:50:14 every line there is one punch card 17:50:14 foom: Oh, right. That's the other plausible interpretation. 17:50:20 twitch 17:50:25 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 17:50:45 Riastradh: when you come back, it would be good to hear if current SBCL HEAD builds on PPC/Leopard. I can build it on Panther, but there is a report of failed contribs on Tiger. 17:51:14 Of course, the next logical step is to throw a handwritten character recognizer against that form to automatically create the punch cards... 17:51:32 *stassats`* is too young for punch cards 17:52:00 nyef: you could output the punch cards as a png, then write a punch card recognition program to interpret the punch cards as binary data 17:52:13 nyef: then you write a LISP implementation in FORTRAN, and write a program to automatically print out that pdf with the program laid on top. 17:52:14 *pinches the bridge of his nose* why was it a good idea at the time to put a pdp-10 instruction into common lisp 17:52:34 yvdriess: What, CAR? 17:52:35 "a" pdp-10 instruction? 17:52:40 ldb 17:52:41 because they cdr 17:52:52 What's the matter with LDB? 17:52:55 pdb 17:53:01 *kpreid* directs your attention to BOOLE 17:53:03 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:53:05 nyef: the byte spec is lame 17:53:22 dlowe: This many bits, this far from the right? What's lame about it? 17:53:25 weren't car and cdr on ibm-7094 or something 17:53:33 stassats`: They might have been. 17:53:34 nyef: that it's a separate form 17:53:46 ibm-704 17:53:56 (ldb value offset length) would have worked just fine, but noooo.... 17:53:57 dlowe: I fail to see how this is lame. 17:54:31 nyef: I fail to see how it isn't lame. To each his own... 17:54:33 dlowe: (defparameter +some-byte-spec+ (byte offset length)), (ldb +some-byte-spec+ ...) 17:55:18 CL newbie says "why can't I specialize a method on BYTE-SPECIFIER?" 17:55:47 And, yes, that is -the- main scenario for it. I've seen tons of code with a huge list of bitfields defined that way and then passed around like... things that are passed around a lot. 17:56:05 not many clean examples there :D 17:56:31 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-119-129.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 17:57:39 so, we're maybe slightly broken on ppc/tiger. extend the freeze till tomorrow at least? 17:57:43 A hat at a sidewalk concert? 17:59:25 i could run a build on ppc/leopard. 17:59:28 Anyway, if byte-specs aren't singluar entities, you can't do that, and named byte-specs are too useful to give up. 17:59:58 I tend to use macros instead of named byte-specs. :) 18:00:55 You need to write a macro to define your bytespecs anyways, since otherwise you need to manually add up the bits for each one to not overlap. 18:01:01 might as well have it output macros instead of constants 18:01:07 oh joy, I found the bug in his code, his loop to convert an integer to a bit-vector puts it in big little endian 18:01:17 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:01:36 foom: When dealing with hardware specs? And some of the fields are -supposed- to overlap... 18:01:42 (aref (make-binary 8) 0) -> 1 18:01:50 a macro wouldn't work either in the (ldb value offset length) case 18:01:52 *big endian 18:02:25 I'm not writing a LispOS, so I probably have a slightly different perspective. 18:02:32 no hardware involved 18:04:01 how does one represent the tab character in common lisp? anyone know? 18:04:09 #\Tab 18:04:11 supposedly #\Tab is nonstandard 18:04:25 it's semi-standard 18:04:25 and (character "\t") just gives me back #\t 18:04:37 nzodd: stick a tab into a string :) 18:04:45 which means non-standard 18:04:54 no, it'll be standard 18:04:55 ah, but I want the char, not the string 18:04:57 *meingbg* has found use for a macro that always evaluates to some form of itself. 18:05:08 well, screw such implementations which have no #\Tab 18:05:14 nzodd: semi-standard is #\tab 18:05:16 nzodd: (character "") 18:05:28 dlowe: ohh i see... i'll try that 18:05:48 nzodd: dlowe way might work better. At least the TAB would get translated to what it needs to be to on systems without a TAB character. 18:06:01 nzodd: but the very best solution is NOT to use TABs at all. 18:06:13 (code-char 9) is non-standard, but will work in sane implementations 18:06:17 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:06:25 nzodd: if what you really mean is a byte containing 0x09, you should use that instead 18:06:35 Eg. in EBCDIC, (code-char 9) = #\9 18:06:37 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 18:06:59 The CL folks did a great thing in separating the character type from the code 18:07:06 Err, not EBCDIC, some other encodings. 18:07:30 Indeed, :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) and (write-byte 9). 18:07:42 This is what you'd do to drive a TTY. 18:07:52 pjb: I'm writing a parser so I can't just discard it 18:08:29 ok, inserting the tab directly into the code seems to work, thanks everyone 18:08:58 what hideous grammar are you parsing in which a tab is a significant character? 18:09:12 nzodd: #\tab works, we're just being pointlessly and overly pedantic. 18:09:25 dlowe: Two that spring immediately to mind are makefiles and that-other-python. 18:09:32 yeah, it's just this whole "semi-standard" thing seems... lame 18:09:49 it's not a significant character, thankfully 18:10:20 dlowe: People seem to like tab delimited files in scientific computing. I wrote a parser last week with #\tab as the delimiter. 18:10:45 ah yes, TSVs 18:11:31 -!- nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:12:06 *nyef* notes that some people consider tab-separated values to be a CSV for values of Comma equal to Tab. 18:12:49 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-187-180.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:23 My favorite part of parsing the file was that it was , except the separator was specified by a tag. The file specification suggested searching for the SEPARATOR tag to determine the separator before parsing the file. 18:14:50 tmh: very good :-) 18:14:59 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 18:15:23 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:15:41 tmh: Even if that means there had to be a line of the form "SEPARATOR", it could still be ambigious. 18:17:04 pjb: Yeah, they thought it out real well. meingbg: exactly. I simply made the assumption that the first character after the separator tag was the separator. The wrinkle was that the specification then proceeded to be even ambiguous and suggest that the separator could be multiple characters. I'll burn that bridge when I get to it. 18:17:22 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 18:17:32 I've not seen a file with more than a single character for the delimiter. 18:19:01 tmh: You're lucky. It could have had """" for delimiter... 18:19:26 benny [n=benny@i577A2576.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:19:29 nikodemus, I'm downloading Apple's developer tools now; once that's done I'll check SBCL out of CVS and build it. 18:20:28 So: sourceforge supports git these days...maybe SBCL should move to git as the official repository. Heck, even glibc did it! :) 18:21:19 we just managed to make launchpad official -- or rather are in the process of doing that -- one thing at a time... :) 18:21:32 foom: So, invest in time in effort to change something that works perfectly well, just because others do? Did you turn a sheep? 18:21:36 MIT Scheme moved to Git last month. Then the repository got screwed up, and someone accidentally scribbled all over it, and then Savannah crashed and lost the repository anyway. 18:21:44 maybe better move from sourceforge? 18:22:10 pjb: baah 18:22:50 Riastradh: and they were able to recover because everyone had a full clone? 18:23:11 nikodemus: you don't actually have to pull a full clone 18:23:31 Maybe. There was some guessing about who had the most up-to-date version. 18:24:03 dlowe: no, but since it's the default and doesn't cost all that much absent _massive_ histories i bet 99% of the peope do pull the full clone 18:24:26 nikodemus: I'd expect MIT scheme to have a massive history, but perhaps I'm mistaken 18:24:28 I don't know whether it's recovered now, but while the latter two problems have been resolved (someone accidentally scribbled all over it, and Savannah crashed), the first problem still persists (the repository is screwed up -- the history on most of the files is confused). 18:24:39 wow 18:24:50 that must've happened during the conversion process 18:24:59 sounds most likely 18:25:08 No, that's different. I didn't mention the problems that arose from corrupt RCS files dating back to the mid-eighties. 18:25:48 It'd be essentially impossible to screw up an existing repository; everyone who already had a clone wouldn't be able to push back into it, and that'd be a pretty big tipoff that something got screwed 18:26:11 Some commits (a few dozen, I think) were just lost from that, and nobody cared enough to fix them. 18:26:42 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-187-180.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [""That's our secret... we kill you with kindness. What's your secret?""] 18:26:46 -!- qebab [n=finnrobi@unicorn.nnordmark.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:26:57 But anyway, the problem with the history in the Git repository is that it doesn't remember history on actual files, but does remember history on the pathnames from which they were moved, which no longer name actual files. 18:27:27 oh, that reminds me: i found ancient cmucl RCS files somewhere way back when 18:27:46 So, for example, if I type `C-x v l' in Emacs, I get no useful history -- only by guessing what the file was named before, and incanting `git log' and `git diff' manually, can I recover the actual history. 18:27:52 Riastradh: that's an incredible error! And they'd want us to switch to git??? 18:28:18 I don't know what happened to the Git repository, and this probably isn't a general problem with Git, but it's still pretty frustrating. 18:28:27 it'd be highly neat to stich up an sbcl repo that reaches into CMUCL history -- especially history beyond the CMUCL CVS 18:28:50 nikodemus: I've had good luck doing that sort of thing with git rebasing 18:28:55 to know whom to blame for ancient bugs? 18:29:06 to figure out why something is the way it is 18:29:19 (Not to mention that I still don't know how to think about Git, so I'm basically petrified of making any changes to the repository now. Fortunately I didn't have many changes in progress...) 18:29:33 i already occasionally have to resort to cmucl cvs histories to figure out stuff in sbcl 18:29:34 pjb: git doesn't track renames at all. It infers them by comparing the contents of two trees 18:30:43 thanks to the same mechanism you can ask it to identify segments of code that were moved from one file to another, etc. highly nice 18:31:08 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@169.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:31:15 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@237.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:31:20 I appreciate that Git may provide fancy features like that, but I don't appreciate that more basic features seem to fail as a consequence of the implementation of the fancier features. 18:31:57 i very much don't agree, but then i'm a rabid convert 18:32:18 the basic features are content tracking, and immutable history as a graph 18:33:00 I watched one of the git presentations at Google and the developer talked about how git enabled him to delete mistaken ideas from the history of the project because he didn't like people seeing his mistakes. I'm not fond of that attitude. I think you should commit when you think it is correct. If it turns out not to be, commit the fix and leave the error for other's benefit. 18:33:30 tmh: you do that on private branches, not published ones 18:33:35 tmh: it's a nicer behavior when you work on a private branch setup. 18:33:45 Well, let me clarify a little: In CVS, renaming is just a non-concept. In Git, it seems to be possible to rename, which encourages people to do that, with the apparent consequence that Git ceases to track the history on the file that was renamed. 18:33:46 tmh: when you normally would just not commit at all while working on something 18:34:17 Riastradh: git doesn't track the history on any file 18:34:19 tmh: you can instead commit, safe in the knowledge that you can uncommit and rewrite history without anyone knowing. :) 18:34:34 Riastradh: you cannot do a rename in git. what you can do is ask git to identify renames in history 18:34:40 dlowe, well, I guess that's my more basic problem with Git: it doesn't match my mental model of what I'm doing to the repository. 18:35:10 It does indeed seem like recording renames would be a useful feature. 18:35:29 nikodemus, I don't know what the difference between those two actions is. Can you clarify? 18:36:02 Riastradh: git can infers renames based on similarity of file contents, during the history-retrieval. 18:36:11 Riastradh: instead of recording them at the time they happen. 18:36:36 recording renames is problematic because even if the tree ends up in identical state after "my-vcs rename foo.c bar.c" and "mv foo.c bar.c; my-vcs commit-all" the repository ends up different 18:36:46 it will also track moved and copied content within the files 18:36:53 s/track/detect/ 18:37:06 toni_ [n=toni@108.Red-83-43-26.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:09 -!- toni_ [n=toni@108.Red-83-43-26.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 18:37:10 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:37:13 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-2-105.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 18:37:24 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:38 Riastradh: on most any git manual page, search for "rename" -- the options are there to turn it off, look for copies as well, etc 18:38:09 man git-annotate is a useful resource 18:38:10 gqs [n=gqs@208.20.21.190] has joined #lisp 18:38:44 bbl 18:38:47 nikodemus: it's only problematic if your UI makes it so. In svn you need to explicitly add files, so it's pretty hard to mistakenly do "mv; svn add" instead of "svn mv". bzr has a "bzr mv --auto" which detects renames you did manually 18:38:55 (By the way, I fear I may come off as attempting to attack Git, which is not my intent. To be fair, I am being extremely curmudgeonly about it, but I mean only to explain my experience with Git as a tool for managing a changing repository of data -- and a very intentionally naive approach at that, because if I don't really thoroughly understand what I'm asking Git to do, I feel very likely to screw something up.) 18:38:58 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.100.126] has quit ["Log this!"] 18:39:37 foom: a fair point 18:40:44 astalla [n=astalla@host94-57-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:41:31 Riastradh: (1) if you feel worried, clone your repo and practise on it (2) don't feel worried: aside from "git branch -D/d " there are very very few destructive commands, and even their effects can be recovered as long as the repository hasn't run gc 18:42:00 now i need to run -> 18:42:07 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181130081.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:42:44 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:42:46 cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 18:44:13 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-57-140.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:44:24 one-line git description: git tracks commits, trees, and files using their sha-1 hash values as references to content, so commits refer to parent commits and a tree, trees contain path to file mappings, and files contain just the binary data, making branch and history tracking much like traversing a list. 18:46:31 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 18:46:50 -!- cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:47:07 cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 18:47:28 Does Git view a `file' as having an identity independent of time and a particular tree in which it is found, or is it merely an element of the codomain of a tree (as a map from pathnames to files)? 18:49:05 git views things as wholes 18:49:08 I heard 18:49:13 nice youtube of linus 18:49:20 and if you don't liek you are stupid and ugly 18:49:24 :) 18:50:07 <_3b> git identifies things by the (sha1 hash of) the contents 18:50:26 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:51:33 tcr: here? 18:51:47 tcr: did you - in your first profile - exclude ABCL startup? 18:52:03 Let me be a little more specific. Does a Git repository have a notion of a set of files, into which there is a map from the cartesian product of trees and pathnames, and from which there is a map into the set of all changes affecting that file? I suspect not; in fact, I suspect that the noun `change' as I used it there is not a concept native to Git. 18:52:39 Right, there is no change. There is what it was then and what it is now. 18:52:53 -!- cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:53:11 cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 18:53:20 Maybe I ought to substitute `the set of all states of that file' for `the set of all changes affecting that file'. 18:54:09 (Okay, technically there are things that are "changes", but they're mostly higher-level things. 18:54:24 Riastradh: right, git is essentially a compressed filesystem store with snapshots. Changes are derived from that. 18:54:32 ...and I ought to be more precise: `the set of all *distinct* states of that file and commits associated with them'. 18:55:45 But that's also how svn works, at least. And I expect many of the other systems although I don't know for sure. 18:56:23 minion: tell tmh about parser 18:56:23 parser: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/parser 18:57:10 Also...by `commit' here, I actually mean `equivalence class of commits under the transitive closure of the equivalence relation relating two commits iff they are contiguous and the file's state is identical in those two commits'. 18:57:11 CLiki search results respond "60 results found, showing results 1 to 10.", but the page is blank. 18:57:12 -!- cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:57:32 cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 18:58:17 cliki doesn't seem to be maintained 18:59:49 cliki is... lightly maintained at best at this point, though there is apparently a full rewrite in the works. 18:59:50 is there a version system in common lisp? 18:59:59 thats an interesting question 19:00:15 foom, I don't claim to understand Subversion (or Mercurial or B[a]z[aa]r) very well, but this is not how either CVS or Darcs works (which, of course, are two extremely different systems). 19:00:18 gqs: There's cl-darcs, but I had sufficiently insufficient luck with it that I gave up and moved to git instead. 19:00:41 -!- ceineke_ [n=chris@dhcp-0-24-1-2b-fc-77.cpe.cabletv.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:00:42 is git extremely hard to use? 19:00:48 no 19:01:27 ceineke_ [n=chris@dhcp-0-24-1-2b-fc-77.cpe.cabletv.on.ca] has joined #lisp 19:01:48 gqs, I have tried several times to learn to use Git, so far without success. 19:02:33 rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-229-0.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 19:02:59 *Riastradh* vanishes. 19:03:00 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:02 darcs is the philosophical opposite of git. Instead of recording only states, it records only transitions 19:03:12 jao [n=jao@172.Red-83-33-181.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:29 -!- Corun is now known as Corun|away 19:04:54 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 19:05:08 I heard darcs has trouble with large scale use, unlike git... 19:05:14 haskell seems sexy tho 19:06:03 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-183-3.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:06:03 sayyestolife [i=hejhejhe@81-224-219-56-no48.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:06:35 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 19:06:55 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:07:04 Hmm, I'm looking for a resource which can explain how lists work and relates to other constructs in lisp such as dotted pairs etc, is there some? (Especially for Common Lisp) 19:07:53 practically any lisp tutorial explains that 19:08:11 really? 19:08:15 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:08:22 any *old-style* lisp tutorial does :-) 19:08:23 give it to me :) 19:08:27 -!- jao [n=jao@172.Red-83-33-181.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:08:30 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:08:50 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.121.121] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:09:00 sayyestolife, say yes to google 19:09:06 sayyestolife: ever heard of a linked list? 19:09:12 dlowe sure 19:09:14 sayyestolife: The following is not a complete tutorial, but it may be useful: lists are NOT a data type in common lisp. they are a *convention of usage* of the more basic type known as conses. 19:09:25 If you keep that in mind, it will help quite a bit. 19:09:31 sayyestolife: that's all it is. 19:09:49 dlowe kpreid seems to disagree? 19:10:26 kpreid is too old school 19:10:30 that's all 19:10:43 ..does he have a beard? =p 19:10:44 (: 19:10:49 sayyestolife: a cons is a data structure with two values, either of which may be a cons. You can make a linked list pretty easily with conses 19:10:59 okay 19:11:14 I think I have a pretty good picture now, thanks! 19:11:33 hefner: why yes, I do. 19:11:41 sayyestolife: what kpreid is pointing out is that a "list" isn't treated as a single piece of data 19:11:42 Is a cons only as strong as its weakest car or cdr? 19:11:47 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:11:49 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 19:12:14 kpreid: A useful lie, perhaps. ISTR that the list type is defined as (OR CONS NULL)... 19:13:29 TDT [n=TDT@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 19:13:40 -!- cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:14:00 cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 19:14:43 eh. poor phrasing. I meant 'not a distinct implementation that is only used for lists'. but care to explain that? 19:16:19 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 19:16:22 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-76.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:17:00 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cons seems to be a nice resource :) 19:17:46 This seems totally wrong: "It is loosely related to the object-oriented notion of a constructor, which creates a new object given arguments" 19:18:12 jao [n=jao@153.Red-83-37-139.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:29 hehe 19:19:49 Seems right to me, if a bit high-flown. 19:20:01 :) 19:20:01 LiamH: I'm going to update my clone of the GSLL repository to test modifications to lisp-unit. It's asking me for a branch, I still have the spin-off-lisp-unit branch, should I test the physical-constants or master branch? 19:20:23 tmh: master 19:20:26 (As in, if it goes any higher then it runs a serious risk of running out of oxygen.) 19:20:35 -!- cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:20:36 LiamH: Thanks. 19:20:47 "I just wanna get high, bara bara bamb bamb" 19:20:48 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:20:54 cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 19:21:34 it may be seen as constructor for cons cells, but that sentences is too ambiguous for unprepared 19:21:49 I'm prepared so! :) 19:22:09 -!- Corun|away is now known as Corun 19:22:28 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:22:59 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 19:23:05 Riastradh: did you have a chance to try the build yet? 19:23:14 *stassats`* can't think of any better wording 19:26:44 -!- cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:27:01 cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 19:28:35 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:10 -!- cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:32:20 -!- jao [n=jao@153.Red-83-37-139.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:32:29 cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 19:33:12 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:35:25 flet over macrolet reports function undefined. Am I missing something obvious here? 19:36:14 flet is lexical and macroexpansions goes before run-time? 19:36:19 likely a thinko on your side, but it's hard to tell without code 19:36:21 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:22 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-76.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 19:37:59 ok, so wait... macros defined in a macrolet cannot use functions in a surrounding flet? 19:38:21 -!- cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:38:30 LiamH: I had to load CFFI-GROVEL by hand. 19:38:35 cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 19:38:35 macrolet _expanders_ cannot use them, but _expansions_ can 19:39:31 "hey folks, let's add compiler-flet!" 19:39:54 nikodemus: ok. Is there any common workaround? 19:40:01 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 19:40:02 (seriously, if you need compile-time local functions you can actually use macrolet to define them and macroexpand-1 to call them. bit of an abuse of the system, but it works fine) 19:40:11 flet inside macrolet? 19:41:38 -!- Corun is now known as Corun|away 19:42:08 stassats`: That could work, I guess.. 19:43:26 -!- cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:43:31 if you don't need to use these functions outside macrolet, it should work for you 19:43:47 cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 19:46:47 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:47:46 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:51:18 LiamH: I just pushed your modification to the repo. Are you already using it locally? 19:52:24 -!- sayyestolife [i=hejhejhe@81-224-219-56-no48.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [] 19:53:35 -!- jmbr_ is now known as jmbr 19:54:43 my lisp listener is using almost as much memory as internet explorer and that is sad 19:54:51 -!- CrazyEddy [n=cyclist@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:55:03 nikodemus, no, sorry, I have not yet had a chance to try the build because I had a problem with installing the developer tools. 19:55:13 the lisp way is 100% bloat. 19:55:16 -!- Corun|away is now known as Corun 19:55:32 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 19:55:34 manic12: What's memory? 19:55:38 manic12: are you sure that's real memory? 19:55:59 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:57:53 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:58:05 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:58:14 what do you mean kpreid? 19:58:39 (pop obama (inner-city 'dresden)) 19:58:42 manic12: programs can allocate address space without any actual RAM backing it up until later. perhaps you're looking at that number 19:58:49 ..and my X server crashes as a consequence of running the clim listener yet again. Thanks, X.org. 19:59:57 room says it's using 150 mb so far of just strings 20:00:02 bzwahr [n=user@bloc-bzwahr-lap.tamu.edu] has joined #lisp 20:00:05 OK, that's actual memory 20:00:32 ...er, wait, does ROOM in your implementation count stuff in the image? (does any?) 20:00:46 CrazyEddy [n=odontoge@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 20:02:06 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 20:02:43 i'm definitely going to have to stop caching the view for anything more than one window off screen, and maybe just go back to creating the view at render time 20:02:48 is is possible to send a function as an argument inside mapcar? 20:03:03 yes 20:03:57 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:23 for some reason when I try to send a concatenate function to make a string (the function evaluates correctly individually) my overall function doesn't work, but if I send the concatenated string statically it works. 20:05:11 lisppaste: url? 20:05:11 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 20:05:16 paste some code and we'll look at it 20:05:29 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:05:53 how does lisppaste get notified of a paste, anyway? 20:06:24 dlowe: when you paste on that site you can tell it to notify the channel with a link 20:06:25 it lives in the same image as paste.lisp.org? 20:06:51 stassats`: hm. I guess so. 20:07:20 bzwahr pasted "concatenate issues" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81310 20:08:05 bzwahr: forms after a ' are not evaluated 20:08:08 dlowe: It's in the same image. There's a function in the new-paste path that schedules the announcement on IRC. 20:08:14 oconnore [n=oconnore@128.119.40.196] has joined #lisp 20:08:26 dlowe: I need to add a comma right? 20:08:36 bzwahr: sure, if you use a backquote instead of a quote 20:08:51 nyef: yeah, got it 20:09:08 ok, got it. makes sense. I'd forgotten about that. 20:09:11 *bzwahr* is still very new to lisp 20:09:22 dlowe: I could go into more detail if you want? 20:10:23 nyef: thanks, looking at source now :) 20:10:52 Should be in persistent-pastes.lisp towards the bottom if memory serves. 20:11:26 nyef: we've got a paste server and an irc bot that don't currently talk to each other, and I was hoping for some fabulously clever way to get them to communicate 20:11:45 -!- Corun is now known as Corun|away 20:19:47 -!- segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1AC90.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:20:19 segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1C27F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:52 In slime, how do you connect to the *inferior-lisp* buffer? 20:20:55 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:04 M-x slime-connect 20:21:14 ok 20:21:40 and you connect to the swank server, started in the lisp, which probably is open in your *inferior-lisp* buffer 20:21:48 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:53 no, it isn't working 20:22:04 "connection failed: connection refused" 20:22:13 it is, you are using it wrong 20:22:20 ... 20:22:22 you need to start a server first 20:22:30 -!- konr [n=konrad@143.106.73.150] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:22:33 how do I do that? 20:23:01 but you wouldn't want to do this, just use (slime-setup '(slime-repl)) and it will connect and open a repl automatically 20:23:01 Wait, wait... Back up. 20:23:11 What's the actual usage scenario here? 20:24:02 (slime-setup bit goes into .emacs) 20:25:39 tmh: why did you have load cffi-grovel by hand? 20:25:59 stassats : "cannot open load file "slime-repl"" 20:26:11 tmh: what modification did you push to repo? 20:26:23 -!- cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:26:26 cavesnow__ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 20:26:44 oconnore: either your slime is too old, or you have an incomplete source tree 20:26:59 LiamH: I don't know why I had to load cffi-grovel by hand. When I typed (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :gsll-tests) it couldn't find cffi-grovel. 20:27:00 do you have a contrib directory inside the slime source tree? 20:27:21 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:40 tmh: maybe cffi-grovel is not loaded automatically with cffi? 20:27:57 *nyef* realizes that he's in a maze of twisty little png-reading libraries, all with more dependencies than he wants to deal with. 20:28:01 elurin [n=testuser@85.99.71.26] has joined #lisp 20:28:23 tmh pasted "NUMBER-EQUAL update for LiamH" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81314 20:28:30 stassats: yes I do 20:28:57 *meingbg* thinks a png-reading library should have one and only one dependency: the png definition document 20:29:06 LiamH: I pushed your suggested change onto the repository after I tested it with gsll. 20:29:13 meingbg: Tell that to the compression scheme. 20:29:43 levooe [n=rastic@unaffiliated/pina] has joined #lisp 20:29:53 nyef: Why not write one? 20:29:56 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:29:57 LiamH: I've also created a branch for the revision I've made. I already tested it with GSLL and it works. I'm going to have to modify some of my unit testing, though, for the revision. The branch should be available soon for you to review. 20:29:58 oconnore: and is there slime-repl.el file inside? 20:30:19 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:25 tmh: OK but you don't need the default-epsilon function anymore? 20:30:34 -!- cavesnow__ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:30:42 meingbg: It doesn't seem like an especially useful thing for me to do. 20:30:46 cavesnow__ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 20:31:21 LiamH: Not for your change. I use it in the revision/rewrite branch. When I get that pushed, you should be able to review it and hopefully it will make sense then. 20:31:27 -!- levooe is now known as erool 20:31:33 tmh: OK 20:31:37 -!- erool is now known as slve 20:31:48 stassats: I don't have that. When I type "M-x slime", clozure starts up with the warning: "No external symbol "CALCULATE-FASL-ROOT" in COMMON-LiSP-USER" 20:31:55 Especially as I can plausibly use ImageMagick to convert the .pngs I have into something that I can trivially load with READ-SEQUENCE. 20:32:02 I go straight to the debugger 20:32:20 oconnore: your slime is old 20:32:42 ok 20:32:47 LiamH: I should have just pushed your change and branched earlier. Your change isn't compatible with my unit testing, so I was trying to update everything at once. I should have just branched. Anyway, it's there now. 20:32:56 update from cvs 20:33:34 tmh: you know git allows you to retroactively branch 20:33:58 stassats, it is the latest on the ubuntu repository 20:34:11 wouldn't everyone have this problem then? 20:34:15 at least, all ubuntu users... 20:34:22 LiamH: Not really, I don't know git that well. I only use it for lisp-unit. I need to start making more frequent changes of lisp-unit so I can get practice with git. 20:34:54 I guess I can update from cvs though... 20:35:07 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 20:35:12 <_3b> nyef: does chipz add too many dependencies? 20:35:15 oconnore: everyone knows not to use lisp packages from ubuntu or debian repositories 20:35:38 i see 20:35:40 _3b: I don't know. But iterate is an unwanted dependency, and I'm not even sure what babel is. 20:35:51 -!- slve [n=rastic@unaffiliated/pina] has left #lisp 20:35:54 yes, i had problems with their sbcl install too,,,, 20:35:54 tmh: In any case, I notice your changes, I will try it out. Also I will tell the colleague who discovered the problem so he can give it a try. 20:36:20 stassats, how do i cvs slime? I use svn at work... it is similar? 20:36:20 Riastradh: fair enough -- and thanks 20:36:34 LiamH: Good. I've already tested it with GSLL, sorry about the delay. 20:36:42 bedtime for me, good night 20:36:43 oconnore: cvs -d :pserver:anonymous:anonymous@common-lisp.net:/project/slime/cvsroot co slime 20:36:46 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:36:49 nikodemus, I can also have access to a PowerPC running Tiger, but not until next week. 20:36:52 Oops. 20:36:53 -!- erig [n=erig@gw0.brightech.com] has quit [] 20:37:11 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-100.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 20:37:17 ok, thanks 20:38:12 and don't forget to do "apt-get --purge remove slime", otherwise they will interfere 20:39:48 oconnore: and here is how you configure it: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Installation.html#Installation 20:40:04 just replace (slime-setup) with (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) 20:41:52 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f5430.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:42:31 Was it the intentional programming people who made an IDE with several "views" of the code? 20:44:11 what does that mean? 20:44:16 cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 20:44:21 stassats, it is still failing to connect 20:44:41 -!- cavesnow__ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:44:50 slime-connect? you don't need it know 20:44:54 now 20:45:13 So I type M-x slime right? 20:45:19 yep 20:45:22 and then C-c C-c should just work? 20:45:28 yep 20:45:30 stassats`: Well, being able to edit the abstract syntax tree in different modes, as in C mode, python mode etc. Just playing with syntax, really. 20:45:36 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:46:16 stassats: when I hit C-c C-c it says "not connected" 20:46:22 meingbg: That sounds like a recipe for coding to the lowest common denominator amongst all those languages. 20:46:23 it doesn't do anything useful 20:46:42 did repl show up after M-x slime 20:47:06 -!- cp2 [n=will@unaffiliated/cp2] has quit ["brb lol"] 20:47:47 stassats`: It had nothing to do with languages as I understood it, just editor modes. They also had a "cell" view, with a GU tree control or similar. 20:48:23 nyef: well, you can have just different syntaxes and one semantics 20:48:34 stassats`: Just seems lisp would be a good language for doing this kind of thing. I find myself kind of doing it now with a macro in infinite recursion and slime-macroexpand-1-inplace. 20:48:43 s/GU/GUI/ 20:48:52 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-76.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:49:20 stassats: yes, the repl comes up, but C-c C-c doesn't send anything to it 20:49:29 ehu`: I would not know how 20:49:58 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:08 oconnore: is there "Slime" in the mode-line of the buffer with your file? 20:50:17 tcr: that's fine. Just something to know. 20:50:48 ehu`: I just clicked on that profile icon, and selected profile whole application. after a while, it presented abcl's prompt 20:50:51 rvirding [n=rvirding@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:02 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:51:04 cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 20:51:14 ehu`: I did the same the second time except that I explictly said to profile all classes 20:51:24 stassats`: it says " (Lisp Slime[..., {not connected}] ElDoc) " 20:51:33 ok. thanks. that's all I needed to know 20:52:07 ehu`: What happened with my "java introspection" ticket? 20:52:08 oconnore: that's strange, can you evaluate anything in the repl? 20:52:34 yes, but when the repl starts, it immediately has an error 20:52:39 but after i type :pop 20:52:42 i can evaluate anything 20:53:02 oconnore: what's in your ~/.swank.lisp ? 20:53:32 that file doesn't exist 20:54:08 tcr: I'm thinking about that ticket. it's in the queue and filed. 20:54:28 ehu`: Oh ok I couldn't find it anymore the other day. I thought it may have been deleted. 20:54:49 no. it's still there #58 20:55:01 -!- delqna [n=delqna@p54A36324.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:55:13 oconnore: about calculate fasl root? that error seems to be caused by debian packages 20:55:29 did you purge slime, cl-swank, and restarted emacs after that? 20:55:43 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:55:46 -!- Corun|away is now known as Corun 20:56:23 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:03 is there a proper way to set a value with let, then use it outside of the let? 20:57:36 bindings exists only during let 20:57:48 that's what I thought 20:57:50 bzwahr: LET does not set a value, it creates new bindings 20:58:28 -!- cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:58:34 cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 20:58:47 -!- mrscheme [n=user@209.120.179.205] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:03 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 20:59:12 you need a special variable, if you want to do that, and set it not with LET, but with SETF 20:59:22 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 20:59:28 no you can do it with closures 20:59:28 ah, stassats`, i didn't purge cl-swank 20:59:31 that was the problem 20:59:33 now it works 20:59:35 thank you very much~ 20:59:39 er... !!!! 21:00:04 s/you need/one way is/ 21:00:28 I wonder why ubuntu repositories suck so bad at lisp... 21:00:29 interesting 21:00:30 -!- deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 21:00:37 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:01:01 ubuntu = debain = bleh, try archlinux or netbsd 21:01:07 :) 21:01:51 oconnore: the current Common Lisp open source world is not so distribution-friendly; although gentoo's dev-lisp may do better 21:02:16 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:24 I compile it. 21:02:35 -!- cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:02:36 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:02:37 oconnore: Don't use distro repos 21:02:54 It's like with Haskell or Ruby 21:02:55 cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 21:02:57 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:03:46 p_l: it's not. ruby gems totally suck 21:04:08 some directory manipulation today is really messing with my mind 21:04:14 on redhat 21:04:16 bleh 21:04:31 fe[nl]ix: they work, though 21:04:42 and similarly, ruby doesn't get packaged much 21:04:51 Perl got head start to distros package it :P 21:05:14 for some value of "work", and a small subset of the total number of ruby gems, yes 21:05:44 -!- md` [n=user@stip-srk131.195-146-143.telecom.sk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:05:56 fe[nl]ix: Well, for my purposes it worked well enough 21:06:43 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 21:07:10 -!- cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:07:16 cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 21:08:01 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-35-243-81.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 21:08:09 cp2 [n=will@unaffiliated/cp2] has joined #lisp 21:08:25 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:08:36 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:09:02 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 21:09:37 -!- oconnore [n=oconnore@128.119.40.196] has left #lisp 21:10:03 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:10:07 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-173-76-163-72.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:10:43 -!- elurin [n=testuser@85.99.71.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:11:20 ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 21:14:48 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:12 -!- cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:15:28 cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 21:17:03 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:08 fe[nl]ix: have you had a chance to look at my cffi-grovel patch? 21:18:33 could you please send it again in unified format ? 21:19:02 slve [n=rastic@unaffiliated/pina] has joined #lisp 21:19:05 -!- slve [n=rastic@unaffiliated/pina] has left #lisp 21:19:38 -!- cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:19:39 fe[nl]ix: OK, I did a darcs diff; that isn't correct? 21:19:49 cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 21:19:51 darcs diff -u 21:19:57 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:19:59 ah, OK 21:20:00 that's much more readable 21:20:14 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-35-243-81.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 21:20:15 I thought it would default to that. 21:20:42 I'll send it tonight when I get home, it's on my home computer. 21:25:54 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:28:24 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:28:47 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 21:29:34 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:29:35 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6ED2A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 21:31:25 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:32:21 -!- saikat___ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:32:28 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:44 Hrm. Given that pmai's decompressor is named "Deflate", if he writes a compressor would it be named "Inflate"? 21:34:13 yes 21:34:36 Seems a little backwards, doesn't it? 21:35:07 too late now huh? 21:36:53 nyef: consistency can be so boring 21:36:55 I wonder if I should dump history of the listener out to a file and discard it from memory 21:37:44 it should be called undeflate 21:38:04 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:38:10 -!- astalla [n=astalla@host94-57-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 21:38:41 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-173-76-163-72.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:01 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:13 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 21:40:41 amblerc [n=user@24-180-81-97.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:46 maybe have each history item be an anonymous function which takes the stream as an argument and compile it and tack it on to a fasl 21:41:54 -!- bzwahr [n=user@bloc-bzwahr-lap.tamu.edu] has left #lisp 21:42:15 sounds overcomplicated 21:43:07 i have already acheived overcomplication 21:43:31 if that's a goal, then go ahead 21:43:59 -!- cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:44:20 cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 21:44:47 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:44 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:46:32 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:46:52 nyef: are you sure it's the name? Usually "deflate" is the name of a compressor, not a decompressor. 21:47:20 pjb: Look for yourself. It's on planet lisp. 21:47:49 Right. He didn't understand the pun :-) 21:48:23 stassats: I much prefer simplicity, but for some reason, I can't get that right 21:50:27 cavesnow__ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 21:50:32 <_3b> would help if it actually had comparisons with other decompression libs 21:50:33 -!- cavesnow_ [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Success] 21:50:37 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:51:16 -!- TDT [n=TDT@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:53:20 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:53:39 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-76.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 21:54:04 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:55:00 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.144.179] has joined #lisp 21:55:37 milanj- [n=milan@93.86.186.165] has joined #lisp 21:56:38 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 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error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:33:26 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:33:27 -!- CrazyEddy [n=untriump@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:33:52 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:13 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:24 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 23:45:26 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483C59E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:46:45 I have a function which returns a list of car and cdr on some tree...example (car (cdr (car (cdr tree)) -- I want to use this in a setf to modify tree (I think). It seems setf won't take just any function as it's first argument. What is a good way of doing this tree modification? 23:47:15 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@189-92-187-124.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:48:41 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 23:48:56 -!- metasyntax [n=user@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Switching client..."] 23:50:00 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:51:37 -!- ausente is now known as dalton 23:53:21 clhs defsetf 23:53:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defset.htm 23:53:30 keithr: ^ 23:53:54 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:55:10 sellout: thanks 23:55:53 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:13 keithr: You can also (defun (setf my-function) (value my-function-arg ...) ...), which is what I usually do. 23:56:17 birdsbite [n=user@74.196.9.26] has joined #lisp 23:56:51 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 23:58:37 -!- mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:58:40 sellout: OK I'll look at both...thanks again. 23:58:54 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp