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[n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 01:26:45 hefner [n=hefner@scatterbrain.cbp.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 01:26:45 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:47 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 01:26:55 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 01:26:59 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:59 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:59 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:59 gmlk [n=gmlk@alicia.demon.nl] has joined #lisp 01:27:14 -!- zen_balrog [n=johnnyc@adsl-71-157-163-55.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 01:29:53 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 01:31:26 -!- Joreji [n=user@42-104.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:32:23 dysinger [n=dysinger@32.159.116.212] has joined #lisp 01:33:34 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@32.159.116.212] has quit [Client Quit] 01:35:22 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:19 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-148-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:42:09 KingThomasV [n=KingThom@c-76-122-37-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:34 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:44:15 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-112-192.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:25 greetings! 01:45:05 hello fusss 01:45:14 hey manic12 01:45:26 fusss: yo! 01:46:10 fusss: is streamtech in any way related to what you're doing? cause their main product seems to be advertising, and they apparently use a lot of CL... 01:46:12 if I asked Freud how I was feeling right now, he would say, in an Austrian accent: "you are shitting bricks", then go on to say something about my mother. 01:46:50 p_l: no idea, but from what I gather they're a small dutch company 01:47:30 "We mostly use Lisp, though here and there you will also find Javascript, Scheme, Python, PHP, Java and Perl." <--- nice offer, though PHP is like putting dung in a cake 01:47:48 what I am doing is way way bigger: for one, i'm running my conglomerate out of a beefy $19.95/mo VPS. We moved out of dreamhost. 01:48:27 I'm sure you're already missing the exciting monthly Dreamhost Newsletter. 01:49:15 I get them still, but subject has changed. Now it reads: "Reminder: Payment declined" 01:49:22 heh 01:49:29 haha 01:49:58 *p_l* currently only has account on weird cluster of machines. 40 EUR/year, yay! 01:50:31 unfortunately some config changes stopped Lisp from working 01:50:38 maybe clisp will work, but I doubt it 01:51:35 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:51:43 cluster is good. 40EU/yr is good. have any ideas on good vps hosts located in the mediterranean or some other .eu region closer to middle-east than Kentucky? 01:52:32 p_l: was this the funky grsec problem? 01:52:33 unfortunately no. Though somewhere near Amsterdam might be a good idea - there's a big exchange there so network is really fast 01:52:45 hefner: yeah, grsec duked it out with SBCL, SBCL lost 01:52:46 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:53:16 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E51C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:53:19 now even CCL refuses to work in 64bit 01:53:45 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:59 What changed to cause this? 01:54:12 p_l: disabling pax on that library (chpax -spmr /path/to/binary) might help, although I don't actually use grsec and have no idea if an unprivileged user can do it. 01:54:25 nyef: I'm not sure, but the result is that mmap() calls return ENOMEM 01:54:35 ... Interesting. 01:54:54 Mind you, I had to use lichthblau's patched SBCL 01:55:00 Probably either due to overcommit, fixed mappings, or both... 01:55:02 that is, relocation-aware 01:55:06 A_anekos [n=anekos@pl069.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:55:22 "normal" SBCL won't work at all 01:55:34 Oh, that sounds fun. 01:55:44 as disabling ASR is impossible without additional privileges 01:56:07 and since it's not "normal" hosting, I can't really demand them to disable ASR :D 01:56:24 well, I still got Erlang to play with 01:56:34 and all "normal" langs like Python and Ruby etc. 01:57:17 New Clojure book is apparently shipping ... 01:57:29 hmmm... time to update my pirated pdf, then 01:57:33 anyone seen one yet? 01:57:56 fusss: leaseweb.comis pretty good 01:58:16 *p_l* haven't been out except for shopping or exams lately, so the last books he had seen was some introduction to haskell paired with introduction to Java... 01:59:06 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-76-122-37-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:59:25 it was a funny sight :-) 01:59:26 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:59:34 -!- KingThomasV [n=KingThom@c-76-122-37-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:59:41 p_l: where is that service (40e/yr) ? 01:59:42 hefner: Hopefully soon clnet will have a gitweb of my CLX tree, with GLX fixes. 02:00:20 parodyoflanguage [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:48 xristos: amsterdam, and I would recommend *NOT* setting it for production use. For experiments, personal stuff or maybe "very early startup work before there's money to buy a VPS", yes 02:01:20 also, don't expect "user-friendy" support :D 02:01:21 i have dedicated server for me 02:01:26 friend of mine would be interested 02:01:35 do you know url? 02:01:44 xristos: nice. it's kinda hard to google these stuff. i almost signed up for a few until i read the fine print and it said the data centers where in the U.S. 02:02:01 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-7024f3f82e34a749] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:02:17 xristos: the problem is, the page isn't currently available in english 02:02:33 p_l: admit it, you don't want neighbors on your box ;-) 02:02:35 what language is the page in ? ;p 02:02:42 xristos: polish? :P 02:02:47 ok 02:03:03 the thing started when few devs wanted to share costs of a beefed up dedicated server in amsterdam :D 02:03:49 back when VPSes were new and scarce, and dedicated servers costed all your wealth and then some 02:05:33 now they changed from society into commercial operation, and there are two shell servers, a www cluster (which includes your typical PHP+MySQL/Postgres stuff), torrent cluster (setup for fast speed, no quotas and easy destruction of evidence) and special server for "heavy" apps, like stuff running on Tomcat 02:05:58 it's ... interesting 02:06:19 is it hosted at leaseweb? 02:06:41 afaik not 02:06:43 let's see 02:06:44 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:06:52 they had a promotion during christmas, really cheap dedicated 02:06:57 lots of ppl signed up 02:08:01 i think p_l's "host" is a powerful beast hidden behind a fast-flux cloak and requires 3 different crypto certificates and a rigged blackberry just to login. 02:08:12 heh 02:08:28 xristos: nope, it's directly bought colocation in some datacenter 02:09:10 there was a trial run of putting some stuff in OVH, but OVH showed that they are less stable than rootnode 02:09:37 fusss: that will be when I get my own datacenter. And no blackberries, it will require a special kind of terminal :P 02:10:43 dowhatyouwantcauseapirateisfree 02:10:56 hah, pasted badly 02:11:23 that was example of configuration interface on my provider - this one registered you for torrent servers :D 02:11:48 i actually have an account on the freebsd box on .onion 02:12:09 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954FFC7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:12:13 hmm... they added oracle. I wonder how many people are crazy enough to use it... 02:12:54 sunwukong [n=vukung@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 02:13:14 *p_l* once thought of a worm that would setup Tor servers on unprotected systems 02:13:24 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 02:13:28 now, that would be an interesting thing :3 02:13:56 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:00 wow, $6.95 vps;128MB RAM, 128MB swap, 5GB HD,100GB transfer, 1 IP :-) 02:18:19 ... there has to be some hook in this 02:18:34 check if that IP isn't v6 ;-) 02:19:12 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 02:19:30 drafael [n=tapio@130.216.90.78] has joined #lisp 02:19:43 that gets you a bare remote "console" (i.e. root prompt) you pay for plesk/cPanel. I would pay NOT to use those, actually :-P 02:20:24 don't remind me of cpanel 02:20:28 worst mess I had ever seen 02:20:30 period 02:22:43 i wrote code on cPanel. no other way to access the client's servers; bluehost demanded I fax them an ID and I must reside in the U.S. to get shell access. had to type php into cpanel's editor, save, go back a few links, reload server and see if it work. I was on a dialup, in Thailand .. gaah! 02:23:30 come for the ladyboys, stay for the dialup internet.. 02:24:15 heh, more like "my cousins stuck there because they got deported from Japan" :-P 02:24:24 haha 02:24:29 what did they do? 02:25:01 snuck into a vessel trying to go somewhere that isn't somalia; ended up in Japan. 02:25:17 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:24 good job :D 02:25:50 sounds like a happy ending. 02:26:05 hefner: ewww 02:26:51 p_l: one of those guys actually paid a smuggler to take him to europe. he is in Ukraine now, stupid git. 02:26:52 fusss: I hope they haven't enjoyed "hospitality" of japanese prison/arrest ? 02:27:41 heh. Ukraine isn't bad 02:28:12 he could have ended in Belarussia :D 02:28:17 p_l: old trick. there is always a "watcher" who calls the UNHCR. refugees get treated fairly well (at least better than they would have treated each other back home) 02:28:31 p_l: +1, and I say that as a Minsk owner 02:30:19 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-148-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:34 yet another person getting bit by type method non-specializer. which part of class-name | EQL don't they understand? 02:31:14 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:34:22 well, there's two failure modes. "what, I can't put a type there?" and "isn't a type the same thing as a class?" 02:35:08 "type != class, but your implementation might provider classes for your CL types" 02:35:43 Class is a subtype of type? 02:35:53 specializers are basically the first place you run into the type/class distinction 02:36:48 there isn't anything else that cares and doesn't also have a finite list of known types (eg COERCE, MAP) 02:37:40 (I wonder if there are CL implementations that let you (make-instance 'cons)) 02:37:55 interesting. I'll keep that in mind, though it would be nice to have type specializers.. 02:39:09 p_l: I encourage you to polish Krystof's custom-specializers-in-sbcl extension 02:39:27 classes should be extensible; how would you extend the primitive types? i think there is room for distinction, at least for performance/ease of implementation. 02:40:08 p_l: there's a lot that could be done to make it nicer (more practical) to use (without writing gobs of reimplement-the-defaults-with-my-variation code) 02:40:34 fusss: not extend the types themselves - extend the type system 02:40:57 (defclass cons () ((car) (cdr))) and away you go :-) 02:41:05 Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:14 purity of type could be had for very little effort, in one's very own package ;-) 02:41:36 Getting said purity of type to be fast is another matter. 02:42:27 I like how it was done in Haskell, with typeclasses (i.e. you could operate on things of "class" and had several different types that supported/derived apriopriate methods) 02:44:06 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 02:44:32 So today I received my dead-tree copy of practical common lisp. Time to really start learning! 02:44:50 here is an example of software specification vs implementation: the world, according to a programmer cartographer of yore. http://blog.bountybayonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/diagrammatic_t-o_world_map_-_12th_c.jpg 02:44:56 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:41 fusss: Complete with east at the top, because we all descend from adam and eve, and the garden of eden was in the east? 02:47:25 tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:49:01 btw, that badly inaccurate map has no excuse. better maps were available long before. just look at the details on this one, from 405BCE (vs that 12th century stupidity from the Java era of mapping) http://www.armenian-history.com/images/maps/Dionysius%20Map%20c405BC.jpg 02:49:06 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:49:35 -!- drafael [n=tapio@130.216.90.78] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:49:55 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:32 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:55:13 fusss: I couldn't help but smile at "thule" in the north of that map :-) 02:55:52 There is no reason that classes should be extensible. 02:56:03 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-7-76.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 02:56:12 Think of a class as being an object that describes the implementation of other objects (its instances). 02:56:29 Zhivago: prototype object systems are that -->self way ;-) 02:56:40 No. Not really. 02:57:05 Prototype systems have objects which are derived from other objects, which has nothing to do with describing implementation. 02:57:08 fusss: prototype object systesms don't have classes per se. 02:57:28 Zhivago: if you mean singletons, then yeah 02:57:38 No. I do not mean singletons. 02:57:55 illuminati1113: heya :-) 02:58:02 hey. 02:58:27 illuminati1113: i briefly forgot your handle. nice meeting you last night :-) 02:58:39 Yeah, was fun. 02:58:39 fusss: I guess that the basic point is this -- if you understand classes as being _descriptive_ then the instance does not depend on the class. 02:59:01 fusss: Imagine making a class that describes 'int' objects in C. 02:59:43 -!- ausente is now known as dalton 03:00:01 Zhivago: it would describe storage class, type name, areas where it's allocated (for big-bag-of-bytes type GC), serialization, tag bits, etc etc. but this is not how it's in CL. 03:00:17 fuss: Actually, this is exactly how it is in CL. 03:00:26 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:47 alright, go on 03:01:05 fuss: Well, that's pretty much all there is to say. 03:01:17 fuss: Consider (class-of 10) 03:01:38 fuss: That's going and finding an object which describes how that 10 is implemented. 03:01:44 sorry if i'm in resistance mode; i'm writing brochures and editing images. can't be bothered to be an object system pedant atm. 03:02:25 fuss: Well, you're welcome to your confusion. 03:03:28 temporary confusion til I get some work done. enlightenment can wait ;-) cheers! 03:04:17 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.11.145] has joined #lisp 03:05:05 Zhivago: Is there a reason that classes shouldn't be extensible? 03:05:22 What should be (char-upcase #\micro_sign)? 03:05:23 Sometimes. 03:05:47 rtoym: Whatever unicode says, or itself. :) 03:06:06 illuminati: Extensibility has a certain overhead. 03:06:18 Right. 03:06:32 illuminati: For example, it's probably not reasonable to require a long-float class to be extensible. 03:06:55 Sure 03:06:59 illuminati: Secondly, it is not always reasonable to expect all classes to be extensible in portable or well defined ways. 03:07:04 Zhivago: That's what I'm trying to figure out. Unicode says greek_capital_letter_mu. But (char-downcase #\greek_capital_letter_mu) is #\greek_small_letter_mu, which is not #\micro_sign. 03:07:15 Though I think I can think of a few cases where it would be better for it to be so. 03:07:24 (Where char-upcase/downcase is what cmucl unicode currently does) 03:07:26 rtoym: Yeah, they're not always reversible. 03:08:01 illuminati: But, in any case you come back to the difference between class and type. 03:08:24 illuminati: By extending a class you are saying 'these implementations are compatible with those implementations for these operations.' 03:08:40 illuminati: It's likely that you are more concerned with being able to extend types. 03:09:07 I guess. 03:09:12 illuminati: e.g., to be able to say instances of my-double are of type real. 03:10:44 Zhivago: Yeah. But CLHS says upcase/downcase are supposed to be one-to-one. I'm trying to decide which is better to follow: CLHS or unicode. 03:11:03 *rtoym* is leaning towards Unicode. 03:11:22 I would, also. CLHS is subtly broken in many ways with respect to text, imho. 03:11:53 I'd also say that CLHS characters do not correspond to code-points, but to composing character sequences. 03:13:01 Not having characters was one of the best moves python made :) 03:13:21 You mean like a character followed by some composing characters? 03:13:52 rtoym: Well, a composing character sequence constructs a complete glyph, which is what CLHS talks about. 03:14:11 toym: So one character might be a sequence of three code points. 03:14:29 At least CLHS permits that by only requiring eql'ness of chars. 03:14:40 Ok. 03:14:40 broken is an awfully strong word.. 03:15:02 hefner: Well, it is. 03:15:17 It's not really a criticism -- they did well for that era. 03:15:25 In cmucl, characters are utf-16 code units, for better or worse. 03:15:34 Such is life. 03:16:20 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-28-169.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:16:51 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.128.34] has joined #lisp 03:16:54 Zhivago: Another question. What do you think of intern and friends converting the string to NFC form before interning the symbol into a package? Cmucl currently does this, but then the (symbol-name (intern "some string")) is not equal to "some string". 03:17:32 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:18:44 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 03:18:54 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-66.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:20:19 rtoym: I think that is likely to cause problems for interfaces which use both strings and symbols for names. 03:20:27 um, like defpackage. 03:21:20 Hmm. It already causes some failures with the ansi-tests. 03:22:00 You could do that at the character stream level, perhaps. 03:22:24 What is the character stream level? 03:23:28 Some more random questions: What should both-case-p return for a character that comes only in Unicode Lt category (titlecase)? 03:24:08 rtoym: following the convention established by upcase, itself twice? 03:24:47 Ralith: What? 03:25:17 oh wait, Zhivago said that. 03:25:44 well, itself twice still seems like the logical thing. 03:26:42 I still don't follow. 03:27:23 what does both-case-p return for a normal character? 03:27:47 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 03:27:50 rtoym: Well, um, character streams could normalize the incoming text, perhaps. 03:28:08 Ralith: Umm. Depends on the character? 03:28:43 rtoym: the character is 'a' 03:28:59 Zhivago: Ok. We don't currently do that. Or maybe we do, at least in the reader. I need to check where exactly the conversion is done. 03:29:31 Ralith: Ok. upcase is A, and upcase again is A. How does that relate to both-case-p? 03:29:44 wat 03:29:47 I was asking about both-case-p 03:30:35 Oops. You were talking about upcase twice. But both-case-p is T for a. 03:30:46 rtoym: Well, if it only exists as titlecase, then surely it would be neither uppercase nor lowercase, in which case both-case-p should be nil. 03:31:25 rtoym: okay, I'm clearly confused, don't mind me 03:32:35 Zhivago: That's what I was thinking. Paul suggests it has case (being titlecase). If looking at the category is not enough, then both-case-p is a bit more complicated. 03:34:13 *rtoym* thinks there are only for code points with titlecase where the upper case and lower case versions are not the same code point. 03:34:23 Er, s/for/four/ 03:36:14 I will always suggest keeping the primitives semantically clean. 03:36:36 If people want to conflate titlecase and uppercase, then given the proper primitives they can write their own operator to do so. 03:38:00 air` [n=user@68.51.172.137] has joined #lisp 03:39:41 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:39:47 That sounds reasonable. Cmucl already provides char-titlecase to convert to titlecase. I guess a title-case-p would be appropriate too. 03:40:07 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-112-192.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:41:37 Actually, here's another case where CLHS gets it wrong. 03:42:45 string-upcase should use titlecase, and string-capitalize should use uppercase. 03:43:14 But that's likely to confuse everyone, so ... :) 03:45:00 Why would that confuse everyone? 03:45:01 Zhivago: if you capitalize a word, then the first letter is uppercase. This is how CLHS defines it, no? 03:45:21 Zhivago: This is also how it is used in normal, written languages 03:46:06 Sikander: I'm used to capitalisation switching all words to uppercase font and making first letter bigger... 03:46:14 Sikander: Yes, and that's where upcasing is appropriate. 03:46:35 Sikander: string-upcase, on the other hand, upcases all of the letters, and that's where titlecase would be more appropriate. 03:46:37 slacks21 [n=ckuttruf@ip68-101-220-87.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:46 As I remember (but a quick google confirms this), it is common to say, eg. "You should capitalize the first word in a sentence". 03:46:55 FWIW, Paul sent me some weird example of ancient Greek where Unicode's casing is bizarre. But since I don't know ancient Greek, I had to take his word for it. 03:47:04 what's the easiest way to execute unix commands from a cl implementation (more specifically sbcl)? 03:47:22 surprisingly I didn't find much when searching 03:47:27 rtoym: That's where upcasing and titlecasing should produce different results -- titlecasing removes the accents. 03:47:56 rtoym: e.g., string-capitalize should preserve the first accent, but string-titlecase should remove the accents. 03:49:20 anyone?... seems like a common thing to do 03:49:34 slacks21: run-program 03:49:40 thanks 03:49:41 I guess what I'm saying is, that the hyperspec defines it correctly. (string-upcase ...) should convert letters in a string to uppercase, while (string-capitalize ...) should capitalize the words 03:49:58 slacks: (apropos "RUN-") may be useful for future reference. 03:50:45 got it; appreciate the help 03:50:46 sikander: Well, it gets it wrong for the example given. 03:51:11 Sikander: But the spec says string-capitalize the first character is uppercase, not titlecase. 03:51:25 sikander: Unicode's basic point is that titlecase is appropriate for where you put all characters like that. 03:51:57 sikander: But, I don't have a big argument with string-upcase, and I'd rather not change it because that would confuse everyone, whereas string-titlecase wouldn't. 03:51:57 *rtoym* will think about making string-capitalize use titlecase and string-upcase use uppercase. 03:52:11 rtoym: That's exactly backward, I think. :) 03:52:28 rtoym: string-capitalize should certainly use uppercase. 03:52:45 rtoym: I'd leave string-upcase be, and just add string-titlecase. 03:53:42 Zhivago: Wait, I think I'm losing track of this conversation. Where does the spec get it wrong? 03:54:07 Zhivago: Yeah, I got that backward. But string-titlecase is probably good. Then you can use Unicode word break algorithm to find the word boundaries. 03:54:10 -!- slacks21 [n=ckuttruf@ip68-101-220-87.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:54:34 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.11.145] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:54:35 Good morning. 03:54:41 sikander: Well, the example is polytonic orthography. 03:55:15 sikander: Capitalization in polytonic orthography (first character majescule) preserves accent. 03:55:29 Zhivago: That's correct 03:55:32 sikander: However, writing all of the characters of the word in majescule removes accent. 03:55:38 you guys are very brave to care about all this stuff. what a mess. 03:55:49 sikander: Since string-upcase puts all of the characters in majescule ... 03:56:02 Zhivago: Ah, I see your point. Sorry about that 03:56:23 Anyhow, I think it's best to tell those greek bastards to bugger off and just require people to use string-titlecase for that kind of thing. 03:56:47 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-71-138-130-18.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:56 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.15.144] has joined #lisp 03:58:09 Hmmm.... 03:59:17 Zhivago: from a backward compatibility point of view, I agree with you 04:02:14 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 04:03:38 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:08:00 -!- nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 04:09:46 -!- dalton is now known as altense 04:13:25 Anyone know what city Edi Weitz lives in? 04:14:47 hey, beach. 04:15:27 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 04:16:46 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-83-52.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 04:17:09 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.15.144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:17:56 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:18:44 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-2b25536b46e63ba6] has joined #lisp 04:18:50 gigamonkey: Hamburg I think. 04:19:11 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:19:51 Oh, thanks. That's what was in the back of my mind too. 04:20:02 How are things? 04:20:15 gigamonkey: busy! And you? 04:21:00 Pretty good. I'm working on my chapter introductions. Then the main introduction, some acknowledgements, a fight about the proper tool with which to typeset a book, and I'm done! 04:21:14 LaTeX! 04:21:20 Ralith: that's my plan. 04:21:22 :D 04:21:24 Apress, not so much. 04:21:31 smack them around a bit 04:21:37 computer modern is appropriate for *every* occasion 04:21:40 That's the other part of my plan. 04:21:45 :D 04:21:59 Well, I was thinking of letting them pick the fonts. 04:22:13 Which means I need to be ready to suck in some TrueType or OpenType or whatever fonts and use them. 04:23:19 beach: you were at ELS? 04:23:24 yep 04:23:27 Fun? 04:23:38 maybe you can find some way to do OpenType -> whatever it is LaTeX uses? 04:23:52 then again, from what I've read that might involve lots of work adding additional information 04:23:54 gigamonkey: Yeah, it was good. I enjoyed the panel debate about the future of Lisp. 04:24:05 Ralith: I believe there is a way to do that. I just need to figure out all the steps. 04:24:14 beach: So what's the future of Lisp? 04:24:35 gigamonkey: It was a debate, so there was no conclusion. 04:24:53 xeTeX afaik could load OpenType fonts natively, but it would probably mean dropping down to TeX for direct font manipulation/definition... though probably there's some module for that already 04:25:41 jrockway_ [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 04:26:45 p_l: There's even a XeLaTeX. 04:26:58 -!- air` [n=user@68.51.172.137] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:27:01 The only problem with that is I can't use pdfLaTeX's fancy microtypographical features. 04:27:28 The future of lisp is probably much like the past of lisp. 04:29:02 Entrenched reactionism followed by fragmentation and re-integration. 04:29:04 gigamonkey: There are many tools (shell scripts and such) floating around that do the truetype installation for LaTeX for you. But you're right, no microtypographical stuff, unless you "add them by hand" 04:29:23 I was guessing death, resurrection, death again, then thousands of years of worship by confused followers. 04:29:35 If you're willing to forgo those features, then it shouldn't take you more than 5 minutes to install a font 04:29:47 Sikander: you mean "add by hand" to the installed fonts? 04:30:23 You mean the information that something like the microtype package needs isn't going to be extracted from the font when you install it into LaTeX? 04:30:31 hefner: sounds a lot like the book religions. 04:30:39 hush 04:31:11 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E47DAB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:19 gigamonkey: What I mean is that it does use the info from the ttf but metafont is more powerful 04:31:31 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:31 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:31 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:31 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:31 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-165-227.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:31 -!- antgree1 [n=Anthony@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:31 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:31 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:31 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:31 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:31 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47DAB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:31 -!- rlonstein [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:31 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:31 -!- meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:31 -!- tsuru` [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:31 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:31 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:31 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:31 -!- bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:31 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:31 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:31 -!- drhodes [n=none@209-20-72-61.slicehost.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:31 -!- Dazhbog [n=sampo@geek.fi] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:31 -!- hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.100] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:31:44 -!- jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [Success] 04:31:45 Some typographical stuff that CM has defined, for instance, is not automatically done with ttf 04:32:03 I think ligatures are one, but I don't remember. It's a long time ago I converted ttfs for use in LaTeX 04:32:08 I wonder why metafont wasn't ever adopted elsewhere. 04:32:10 kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:12 can't OpenType do ligatures? 04:32:24 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 04:32:25 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:40 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 04:32:50 Ralith: It kind of was, because I use a subset of it for the Gsharp fonts. 04:33:03 Gsharp? 04:33:13 Ralith: Sorry, I was talking about truetype. I haven't worked with opentype and LaTeX 04:33:14 minion: tell Ralith about Gsharp 04:33:14 Ralith: look at Gsharp: Gsharp is a graphical, interactive score editing application for standard Music notation. http://www.cliki.net/Gsharp 04:33:21 oo, cool! 04:33:54 AFAIK Metafont simply had better control over generation of final effect due to certain important differences :) 04:34:01 gigamonkey: What I meant with "add by hand" is that you might have to fiddle around with the mf, vf or whatever was generated. It's a long time ago, I don't remember that much. 04:34:08 Ralith: But I think the real answer to your question is that Metafont is a batch program that produces bitmap files, and we need in-memory representations of various steps, just the way I did for Gsharp. 04:34:29 gigamonkey: But the generated fonts look ok, except in, you know, math equations :) Also, ligatures are faked 04:34:54 at least with the font set I was working with 04:35:04 beach: metafont produces bitmaps? I always thought the type that you end up with in LaTeX output was vector. 04:35:16 *p_l* didn't have problems with TTF/OTF/PS fonts, but he mostly used ones that were generated based on metafont ones :D 04:35:27 Dazhbog [n=sampo@geek.fi] has joined #lisp 04:35:34 tsuru` [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:34 Ralith: DVI files specify "boxes" were font is going 04:35:46 meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:47 drhodes [n=none@209-20-72-61.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:51 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 04:35:52 Ralith: No, it produces bitmap files using various compressed formats such as gf, pk, etc. 04:35:59 hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.100] has joined #lisp 04:35:59 rlonstein [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:03 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 04:36:08 hm. They must be pretty high resolution, then. 04:36:29 Ralith: You can choose your resolution when you run Metafont. 04:36:34 Ralith: driver programs then use bitmap fonts generated by metafont based on the target characteristics and generate a device-specific file 04:36:42 Ralith: when you use dvips or dvipdf or so, you can instruct it to replace the bitmaps with PS (vectorized) fonts 04:36:54 oh, really? 04:36:59 so it doesn't *just* do bitmaps 04:37:14 Ralith: When you substitute like that, you are no longer using Metafont. 04:37:20 Ralith: It's more like there exist vectorised versions of those fonts 04:37:32 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 04:37:32 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:32 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-165-227.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:32 antgree1 [n=Anthony@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:37:32 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 04:37:32 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47DAB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:32 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 04:37:32 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 04:37:32 ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:32 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 04:37:32 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 04:37:32 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:36 well, the important bit is that the PDF you get out at the end is all shiny and vectory. 04:37:38 aja_ [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:40 Unfortunately, it would be quite hard to make MF -> TTF translator 04:38:08 antgreen [n=Anthony@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:38:14 Wait, MetaFont itself is vectorised, right? It just _generates_ high-res bitmaps, to calculate "bounding boxes" for the letters 04:38:22 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 04:38:26 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 04:38:55 Ah, is this vectored fonts vs. bitmaps issue related to why someone was warning me to use something like pdfTex that generates PDFs directly rather than something that goes through DVI if I'm trying to generate a PDF that they book printer is actually going to print directly (on some presumably very high resolution printer)? 04:38:59 Sikander: It also generates those bitmaps for final rendering, but yeah, it uses Bezier curves. 04:39:08 Exactly 04:39:12 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:16 gigamonkey: exactly 04:39:16 Sikander: was that to me or beach? 04:39:19 gigamonkey: Yes, that's correct. 04:39:23 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 04:39:37 gigamonkey: Ooh, to beach, sorry 04:39:44 -!- aja is now known as Guest81813 04:39:51 dvipdf doesn't get the fonts vectory? 04:39:58 gigamonkey: but you are correct too 04:39:58 odamn, my toolchain is bad. 04:40:02 gigamonkey: pdftex and xetex can directly generate files with vector fonts 04:40:12 *Ralith* shall switch to pdflatex. 04:40:18 p_l: yeah, that was my understanding. 04:40:19 Ralith: No, it doesn't. It might get lucky with substitution, but I don't use that. 04:40:33 gigamonkey: because of that they avoid the mess of dvips 04:40:35 just have to work out how to get gnuplot output to cooperate with it 04:40:40 As a general rule, use pdflatex if you want good fonts. And use TikZ if you want nice line drawings! 04:40:43 *hefner* uses rubber, but treats it as a black box 04:41:22 -!- aja_ is now known as aja 04:41:25 Sikander: what if I actually want nice graphs :P 04:41:33 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 04:41:39 from data and functions and such 04:41:41 Ralith: Some time ago, I wrote a small shell script that converted a gnuplot file 04:41:45 Sikander: Metafont is vectorised, but is also way too advanced to fit into TTF or OTF. It "might" fit into a full PS font, but I'm not sure how it would work in practice :D 04:41:53 Ralith: Yeah, it's a pain 04:42:04 what's a nice way to parse/unpack binary structures, such as a "struct tcphdr"? 04:42:06 Ralith: But I still do it 04:42:25 Sikander: I bet you could extend gnuplot to write TikZ code 04:42:29 Ralith: Setting up axes etc sucks, but the output fits perfectly (font size and all) with the rest of the text 04:42:31 Qsource: you might look at PCL's chapter on parsing binary files. 04:42:41 since it's been done for so many other outputs 04:42:42 it can't be hard 04:43:03 Ralith: Most likely 04:43:12 p_l: I agree. 04:43:19 *p_l* is always found relearning how to inject XFig files with pdflatex 04:43:20 _stern_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46749.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:26 So to produce usable output with Metafont you have to know what resolution it's going to print at? 04:43:28 p_l: MetaFont's way of "fitting" a MetaFont into PS is to embed bitmaps 04:43:43 and that's the simples type of the image you can put in TeX... 04:43:46 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-112-192.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:00 So if I knew the book printer was using whatever an Xgazillion dpi printer then I could tell Metafont that and have it generate appropriate bitmaps? 04:44:11 Sikander: That doesn't mean it's not impossible to generate vector format. That's how MetaPost got started :) 04:44:12 -!- jrockway_ [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:44:13 jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 04:44:15 p_l: The bitmaps are no problem if you generate a resolution good enough for your printer. But it's definately not printer-independent any more 04:44:19 gigamonkey: in theory. 04:44:25 gigamonkey: the printer will run in 300dpi or 600dpi 04:45:00 p_l: really. My stupid desktop printer claims to do 1200dpi. I'd hope a big commercial book printer does better than that. 04:45:26 Don't they usually print at 1200 or 2400? 04:45:31 gigamonkey: big commercial printer had done away with stupid epeen enlargement through bigger values in DPI :P 04:45:52 gigamonkey: commercial printers need speed, not quality, I think. 04:46:04 since, after all, it only has to be readable. 04:46:09 for printing, it depends on the material 04:46:14 gigamonkey: i've actually seen that before, and i was hoping for something that requires less work. like (binary-destructuring-bind *tcphdr-format* ...) or python's struct.unpack 04:46:18 gigamonkey: You can always write the text and generate the correct resolution once they give you the specs 04:46:39 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 04:46:56 high-res in consumer stuff is oriented at printing graphics, with hi-res photos in mind 04:47:11 text looks really sharp already with 300dpi 04:47:26 p_l: But one would assume that a printer also can print good line art. Is 300dpi enough then? 04:47:26 Sikander: the problem is I don't want to depend on too much cooperation and/or detail-orientation from the publisher. 04:47:49 Sikander: 300~600 dpi is probably good enough for most work 04:47:55 gigamonkey: So not even just before submitting? 04:47:57 I'm not sure if they don't actually print it lower 04:48:30 p_l: I would agree that 600 is probably ok, but 300...? 04:48:38 Sikander: possibly. Basically the problem is they have their workflow and I'm proposing another one. 04:48:58 Sikander: I'm not sure if I haven't had to use 150 dpi for graphics 04:49:09 (Theirs involves--as far as I can tell--typesetting the book in Microsoft Word which is why I'm proposing mine.) 04:49:18 gigamonkey: just use pdflatex to get vectory fonts then convert the pdf to ps or whatever they want 04:49:34 -!- antgree1 [n=Anthony@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Success] 04:49:43 I hate that printers nowadays ask for Word format! 04:49:46 *fusss* follows the discussion attentively as he has to architecture a "knowledge base" for a portal RSN 04:49:46 Even scientific journals! 04:49:48 Ralith: I think that's what I'm going to do. I'm just still trying to wrap my brain around the implications of these various choices. 04:49:50 Sikander: what! 04:49:51 What is the world coming to! 04:49:54 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E47DAB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:50:01 Sikander: its doom, evidently 04:50:04 -!- Guest81813 [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:50:15 if a scientific journal asks for word it should lose all credibility 04:50:18 Sikander: #$!#@ it's the *printer* who's asking for Word. Crap, crap, crap. 04:50:21 I mean, for God's sake, even Nature! 04:50:34 gigamonkey: I can assure you that unless they really suck, they are not typesetting it in Word. *Properly* formatted (i.e. correct styles etc, not "pick and peck styling") word documents can be treated like quite good markup 04:50:37 Nature?! 04:50:44 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47DAB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:51:10 Ralith: They have a class file, sure, but _many_ groups submit in Word! 04:51:21 I don't believe you can do good science when you publish using Word! 04:51:28 p_l: You may be right. 04:51:33 p_l raises an interesting point. 04:51:34 Sikander: Again, they are not *publishing* with Word 04:52:02 p_l: Ok, you're right, I meant _submitting_ 04:52:05 hefner: I'm not raising, I had seen it work as well as help in that environment. 04:52:21 .. what? 04:52:21 They mentioned a "6x9 Word template". I have an outstanding query what that actually means. 04:52:41 gigamonkey: So they don't accept PS or PDF? 04:53:04 p_l: that was in response to a question I had about possibly having someone use InDesign to do the compositing because it uses Knuth's line breaking algorithm and he's one of my subjects. 04:53:25 hefner: sorry, have some errors in my thought process early in morning :D 04:53:33 gigamonkey: they probably are going to use inDesign 04:53:34 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-165-227.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 04:53:44 gigamonkey: are they a mac-oriented shop, or working on Windows? 04:53:45 InDesign uses Knuth's linebreak algo? cool! 04:53:54 Sikander: I don't know. For my last book we did the copy editing phase in Word and then I got PDFs of the "galley proofs" that were done in Quark or something. 04:54:10 Ok, Quark-based studio it is 04:54:12 Quark sounds about right 04:54:16 Probably Mac-based 04:54:19 they probably ask for word because they assume everyone else uses word 04:54:20 So I assumed those PDFs were what were ultimately sent to the printer. 04:54:35 Ralith: well, their copyediting workflow is based on Word. 04:54:38 Ralith: They ask because it works better with DTP workflow 04:55:20 p_l: I think they hire freelance compositors and those people use whatever tool (used to be Quark or Pagemaker I think) they choose. 04:55:29 Thus my request that they find someone who uses InDesign. 04:55:37 lol 04:55:50 And then they came back and said, "Interesting idea but no, we can't because we're going to use this Word template." 04:56:03 >.< 04:56:16 So it doesn't *sound* like they're actually going to use InDesign or Quark because then they should have just said so, no? 04:56:42 AFAIK, wasn't Knuth's algorithm considered quite basic, with DTP packages taking it as "basic level" and then trying to improve? 04:57:11 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@76.122.37.30] has joined #lisp 04:57:21 p_l: I think the InDesign folks claim they have a few tweaks to it. But I think it's still pretty much state of the art. 04:57:53 gigamonkey: I would advise not trying to force your publisher's workflow unless they start fucking up important parts of the book. 04:57:56 -!- enn [n=eli@codeanddata.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:57:59 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:59:02 by using LaTeX you're basically becoming your own publisher - I hope they find some good people wrt tuning PDFs generated by it to be properly processed by printer/CTP system 04:59:28 *hefner* (as usual) can't figure out how to use clbuild 04:59:48 p_l: true. But if all they're going to do (and I may be misunderstanding what they plan to do) is generate ome kind of output directly from Word and ship it off to the printer I'd count that as fucking it up. 05:00:05 I have to send a copy of this thing to Donald Knuth, after all. 05:00:36 Oh, you'll lose face if you use Word there... 05:00:45 Uh, yeah. 05:01:06 Part of the reason I think they may be skipping the normal compositing step is because it's very simple typographically. 05:01:08 gigamonkey: I'm pretty sure they won't use Word for typesetting. They would lose face themselves among DTP :) 05:01:14 Usually they import the Word in Quark and then have someone fiddle around with it 05:01:42 with the layout etc that is 05:01:43 But then the answer to my query about InDesign shoud have been, "Sorry, no can do -- we use Quark." 05:01:57 Not, "No can do -- we're going to use Word." 05:02:10 *gigamonkey* badly needs requested clarification from his publisher. 05:02:24 Basically, Word is used as editor (or sometimes a special editor tightly integrated with DTP package, like inScribe), then it's loaded into DTP software and typesetter fiddles with 05:02:26 Did you talk to a rep or the actual typesetters? 05:02:44 My "coordinating editor". 05:02:58 rep, basically. 05:03:00 Probably, the guy you spoke to only has a piece of paper which says what the typesetters can do. 05:03:02 gigamonkey: they probably meant that they have this Word template for which they have settings/scripts to load it into DTP software with correct structure definitions 05:03:24 properly used Word isn't bad 05:03:32 And they probably have a good Word import filter for that template 05:03:38 p_l: That would make sense. 05:03:41 eh import filter for that Word template 05:04:02 So perhaps my editor just explained it in the maximially confusing way. 05:04:19 Most likely 05:04:29 It's the f*cking typewriter-minded morons that fill the world with "hunt-and-peck" shi^Wtypography because Word (or other WYSIWYG editor) shows them a page 05:04:55 What's wrong with typewriters? I like them! 05:05:05 They had this awesome feel to it! 05:05:10 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 05:05:18 On my last book I got back some comment about how cleanly styled my submitted Word docs were. Of course they were, my Word docs were all programatically generated from my own sane markup. ;-) 05:05:27 Sikander: I'm not against typewriters. I'm against morons who think "word processor" EQL typewriter 05:05:45 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-250.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:05:50 p_l: Yeah, I got that, I was sort of joking :) 05:05:54 *hefner* can't quite figure out why "sh ./clbuild recompile sbcl" retrieves a copy of cl-ppcre, compiles it, then quits. 05:06:09 gigamonkey: how do you programatically generate a word doc O.o 05:06:11 gigamonkey: that's because Word offers a sane markup... if someone uses it. However, it's userfriendliness made it way to easy to fuckup 05:06:44 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:06:46 So, us poor people in publishing, have to deal with similar kind of morons as software industry. 05:07:18 p_l: Yes. 05:07:20 oh the joy of receiving a presentation as series of JPEG files attached to mail 05:07:27 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-2b25536b46e63ba6] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:07:34 Back when I used to use Word I was religious about using styles. 05:07:57 Even if I had written my Word docs by hand they would have been done right because I get it. 05:07:57 and here I thought I was being progressive by doing presentations with a directory full of jpegs adn a fullscreened image viewer. =/ 05:08:08 -!- A_anekos [n=anekos@pl069.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1: SIGTERM received; exit"] 05:08:15 gigamonkey: then you just got marked into my personal hall of fame wrt word processors :D 05:08:47 hefner: mind you, that presentation was to be *printed*. As well as put in "original" form on the CD 05:08:59 Ralith: I generate RTF; open in Word; Save as ... 05:09:26 ah. :P 05:09:44 that's somewhat limiting, as you can specify only very little 05:09:49 gigamonkey: now you can try to us one of the XML formats supplied by Office 05:10:03 good luck with that. 05:10:13 Ralith: thank you, I did fine :D 05:10:20 actually, doesn't the latest support ODF? 05:10:27 Are they more sane than RTF? 05:10:42 gigamonkey: depends on your definition of sanity. I'm not sure 05:10:55 gigamonkey: I've heard microsoft's aren't, but I would expect ODF to be at least ostensibly comprehensible. 05:10:57 Ralith: Didn't they completely screw up their implementation of ODF? (if you're talking about MS Office that is) 05:11:05 Sikander: likely. 05:11:13 actually not likely, to my knowledge 05:11:27 jmbr [n=jmbr@57.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 05:11:52 didn't they simply fund an opensource project for that? :P 05:12:40 I read that at least Office 2007 achieved almost no interoperability with ODF 1.1 05:12:54 Sikander: default install doesn't have ODF support 05:13:15 ODF is downloadable extension, also included in SP1 afaik 05:13:27 p_l: I meant SP2 05:13:41 also, they were targeting 1.0, afaik 05:14:06 even OpenOffice spews files that are not completely compliant, because they added some extensions, afaik 05:14:09 p_l: Here is a link, but whether you trust it is a different story: http://www.robweir.com/blog/2009/05/update-on-odf-spreadsheet.html 05:15:01 p_l: Ok, that's spreadsheets... 05:15:09 p_l: Maybe I was remembering wrong 05:15:16 hmmm.... I think I was using Sun's plugin 05:15:37 I think it was actually the one I got sent to when checking out ODF in Word, so... 05:15:51 but it was long time ago. I rarely ever get ODF stuff 05:16:09 I also never send them to anyone 05:17:17 so for me it's kind of moot point :D 05:18:22 Ralith: Maybe I should see if I can hack together a tikz terminal for gnuplot... 05:18:53 Sikander: if you do, please do punt it upstream 05:19:09 that'd be pretty cool 05:19:09 What field of science are you in? 05:19:39 actually, my uses have mostly been for schoolwork (in pure math and in biology) >_> 05:19:47 Ah... 05:20:55 Well, I'm in physics, and use gnuplot and LaTeX. I know people using Excel and Word to write articles though. Terrible-looking equations! 05:21:13 terrible looking everything, I imagine. 05:21:41 awesome wordart! 05:21:50 path of least resistace... 05:22:01 Although, Excel did have the flight simulator at one point... 05:22:18 incidentally, have you ever found a way to linebreak long expressions w/ correct indentation when you're already inside a split? 05:22:40 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:22:51 in math, that is 05:23:08 Erm, I think I usually hack it. But doesn't amsmath contain some good way of doing that? 05:23:15 not that I've found 05:23:22 there's the split environment 05:23:26 but it doesn't seem to nest properly 05:23:35 Wait, let me have a look at some old stuff 05:24:37 Nah, I usually use things like quads after the & 05:24:43 Not pretty 05:25:10 You could always revert to eqnarray and the awful \nonumber 05:25:20 But there you have more fields 05:25:30 that sounds even worse than a force-linebreak and some hard space 05:26:27 It is 05:26:37 But have a look at the amsmath doc, table 3.1 05:26:42 They suggest using quads as well 05:27:24 I don't know if multiline works with split, probably not 05:27:58 looks like 05:28:32 While amsmath is really nice, it's still not perfect :) 05:28:50 indeed. 05:29:12 still, it let me duplicate textbook notation, which is always lots of fun. 05:29:42 :) 05:29:51 Anyway, time for me to go... 05:29:58 especially fun when I did a better job than was done on the final. 05:30:03 seeya 05:30:26 \quit 05:30:29 doh 05:30:30 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:30:42 lol 05:30:44 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 05:32:44 splittist [n=dmurray@70-92.0-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 05:32:48 morning 05:32:55 nothing crushes the soul and makes me amateurish like those "X Beautiful CSS/Javascript/gfx Y design" articles. fuckers have spent a lot of time tweaking CSS it's hard to learn everything they write about. 05:35:47 look at the stuff here and feel irrelevant :-D http://dzineblog.com/ 05:35:47 what about a hydraulic press 05:38:59 cotton press 05:39:34 hydraulic cotton 05:41:01 pave the way: http://www.dd.chalmers.se/~joherik/photos/2008/road.jpg 05:42:46 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:45:34 Cools [n=Cools@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:48:05 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 05:48:20 nice .. he's probably a lisper 05:48:30 leon [n=leon@213.87.87.48] has joined #lisp 05:48:48 -!- Cools [n=Cools@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 05:49:17 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:28 heh :-) 05:50:49 transition between the tarp and road surface isn't very subtle. 05:51:56 lnostdal: i wasted 2 weeks on a dashboard and none of the other guys offer it :-/ 05:52:16 rtra [n=user@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 05:54:29 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["bedtime"] 05:56:37 a what? .. an admin interface? 05:56:41 heh :) 05:56:48 analytics dashboard 05:56:53 ok 05:57:15 it's actually not a good idea; trains people to be metrics nuts, which is not good :-) 05:57:44 it does keep them occupied though 05:58:12 heh, and so does a tetris applet :-P 05:58:23 hm, too obvious 05:58:34 :) 06:00:52 improve your ROI by fitting blocks of your monthly traffic into place 06:01:28 brb 06:02:52 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:04:13 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:06:06 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-66.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:06:59 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-66.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:08:09 -!- altense is now known as dalton 06:09:59 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:10:51 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 06:12:23 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 06:12:40 hello 06:13:45 dys` [n=andreas@p5B317115.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:42 -!- leon [n=leon@213.87.87.48] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:19:38 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B3175F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:19:40 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.128.34] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:26:44 are the ELS talk downloadable from somewhere? I couldn't find them on the site 06:27:14 *talks, stupid keyboard 06:27:41 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:28:39 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-7-100.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:28:48 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-148-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:34:58 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 06:35:08 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.39.21] has joined #lisp 06:41:19 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:41:19 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-144-136.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:27 -!- a-s [n=user@92.85.204.10] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:45:40 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has quit ["bye"] 06:47:46 HG` [n=wells@xdslff202.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:49:25 Sikander [n=soemraws@98.185.236.17] has joined #lisp 06:50:20 Ralith: hey, I was just getting ready on a TikZ terminal for gnuplot... and I found this: http://peter.affenbande.org/gnuplot/ 06:50:31 Ralith: Apparently, it's in the devel version already 06:50:42 cool! 06:51:20 Haven't tried it yet though 06:51:38 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:51:54 And if you know lua, then you can apparently do some pretty fancy stuff 06:53:09 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:53:26 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:17 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:55:01 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 06:56:57 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-148-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:23 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:30 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@98.185.236.17] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:02:18 heh, i might have learned my hunchentoot a little too well :-) 07:02:29 oh? 07:03:12 tic: yeah, wrote a signup/login/forgot-pass form in 15 minutes :-) 07:03:20 fusss, coolio. 07:03:27 ASau [n=user@host223-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:03:33 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:03:51 yyyyeah, i can use the next 3 weeks to tidy up the CSS rounded-corners and drop-shadows 07:04:06 fusss: sounds like good screencast fodder (: 07:04:18 heh 07:04:30 fusss, that is the most important part of a reg/login form! 07:04:36 screw screencasts, i wanna get you guys another "lisp shop" online RSN 07:04:37 schmx [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:04:46 wassat? 07:04:58 mine, advertising network 07:05:21 LispSense? 07:05:22 launching 3 hours ago, but had to take longer 07:05:40 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-239.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:06:06 tic: :-) no mention of alien technology anywhere. i can do the barnski alien in the "careers" page, but that would be a lie as i can't hire anyone yet 07:06:25 fusss, we wants the alien! 07:06:30 fusss, URL? 07:06:35 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.100.126] has joined #lisp 07:06:52 sent you privately 07:06:58 thanks! 07:08:29 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:09:39 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:48 yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@95.37.230.36] has joined #lisp 07:11:14 haha, alien :D 07:13:30 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:14:22 yeah, who needs alien bindings when you can it in 100% lisp :-P 07:14:28 ^do 07:15:58 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-250.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 07:19:03 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:20:41 is there some option in emacs that'll remove trailing whitespace? 07:20:49 ..when saving? 07:21:11 lnostdal: look for whitespace-cleanup and similar stuff 07:21:23 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:23:50 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@57.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:24:03 thanks .. :) .. (add-hook 'before-save-hook 'whitespace-cleanup) ;; seems to work 07:24:16 lnostdal: or delete-trailing-whitespace 07:24:42 gigamonkey: re flying -- :-). To be honest, the effective destruction is only half of the the "no flying" rule; the other half is the reluctance to pay to be treated like cattle (most airlines) or vermin (Ryanair) 07:25:07 I am also not sanguine about e.g. Eurostar's claims to make all my trips on that "carbon-neutral" 07:25:32 *shiver* RyanAir. 07:25:39 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-148-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:26:23 in case anyone cares, read "Sustainable Energy: without the hot air", D.J.C. MacKay 07:26:32 Krystof: I made myself a rule that I'm not going to fly with low-costs 07:27:32 also, I am realistic enough to accept that some flying is necessary and even some discretionary flying is sustainable. But... well, get informed 07:28:07 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:29:12 Krystof: Some time ago (quite recently) we had an incursion of "anti-flying" group into Aberdeen Airport. They should be happy I'm not going to be head of security in such place - they wouldn't live to see the next day... 07:30:55 planes have this going after them, that you can't reliably replace them with other type of transport - I'll gladly use electric trains, but it's not always the case 07:31:32 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-250.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:33:18 reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:37:44 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@70-92.0-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["outlook is not."] 07:38:50 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:39:52 'good-morning 07:40:09 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:41:29 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:41:56 p_l: flight, you're doing it wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armen_Firman 07:42:52 fusss: nice! 07:44:27 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:47:24 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:48:09 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Client Quit] 07:51:18 me thinks it's a very very bad idea to have my server load fasls; better dump custom cores for faster startup 07:51:18 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:51:19 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:17 -!- bdowning_ is now known as bdowning 07:52:19 there are a lot of kinks that need to be ironed out. hunchentoot:stop doesn't fully stop the server until one more request comes out, and calling start after that doesn't start it as the socket is in use (i.e. port-reuse enabled) 07:52:20 hm, you could perhaps start a 2nd instance, then load the .fasls and have that session dump a core, fusss 07:53:04 all runtime state is maintained in rucksack; which is pretty cool and 100% transactional. i don't mind restarting the processes as needed, but i want the app code dumped in the core file 07:53:25 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:53:42 that might even allow me to maintain identical sbcl envorinments and i can scp a .core file instead of asdf-installing the sources across 07:57:49 -!- dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:58:13 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:58:38 ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 07:59:08 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.39.21] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:02:50 -!- ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 08:04:37 -!- reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:13:27 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 08:13:37 mae_tae [i=7960f2e2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e4233fb33b3f7c98] has joined #lisp 08:13:51 hello people 08:17:55 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 08:20:51 fusss_ [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-107-174.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:41 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 08:26:57 frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 08:27:41 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-164-129.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:49 -!- yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@95.37.230.36] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:28:04 -!- tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:28:39 -!- frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has left #lisp 08:30:01 morning 08:34:24 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:50 A_anekos [n=anekos@pl771.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:34:55 frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 08:36:29 tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:54 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-112-192.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:39:03 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 08:39:34 -!- housel [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit ["Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5"] 08:40:43 ski [n=slj@c-e113e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:40:58 -!- mae_tae [i=7960f2e2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e4233fb33b3f7c98] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 08:41:02 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:42:07 reaver___ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 08:43:04 leon [n=leon@213.87.88.128] has joined #lisp 08:47:27 hey manic12 08:47:43 hey 08:48:20 I'm looking for links on text windows, since I seem to be doing a bad job on mine 08:53:25 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:25 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-164-129.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:25 -!- fusss_ [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-107-174.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:25 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:25 -!- rtra [n=user@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:25 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:25 -!- bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:25 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:25 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:25 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:25 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:53:25 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:53:55 -!- leon [n=leon@213.87.88.128] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 08:54:21 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:21 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-164-129.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:21 fusss_ [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-107-174.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:21 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:54:21 rtra [n=user@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 08:54:21 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 08:54:21 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 08:54:21 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 08:54:21 ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:21 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 08:54:21 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 08:56:49 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl771.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1: SIGTERM received; exit"] 08:57:38 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 09:06:08 I'm not sure what to google for 09:07:31 words like "text" and "window" bring up such a broad range of stuff 09:08:06 What are text windows? 09:09:42 i'm not sure whether to interpret that as a serious question or not 09:10:11 try 09:10:22 do you want me to give examples of thing that I'm trying to accomplish? 09:10:26 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:10:29 manic12: I was going to ask the same thing, your question is confusing 09:11:06 xterms, editor buffers, things like that 09:11:35 -!- fusss_ [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-107-174.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:11:41 in this case i'm working on a lisp listener 09:11:53 manic12: My question was along the lines of "text windows? as a window with text in some X toolkit? ncurses? clim?" 09:12:10 oh 09:12:49 it's kind of home made, I'm using microsoft windows, opengl and lisp 09:13:15 the last version I did didn't do any caching of a view 09:13:16 Right, ok. I suppose you must look up how to code opengl, and put text in those opengl windows. 09:13:27 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:14:17 it was fast enough just to have a mark into an array and make rows from lines at render time, but it wasn't super quick 09:14:18 manic12: Maybe "opengl tutorial" is a good google search. 09:15:52 schmx: thanks for the suggestion, but I can already render text of various fonts and colors to the window 09:16:01 oh ok. 09:16:10 housel [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 09:16:11 You seem to know much more opengl than me then (: 09:16:50 i'm trying to make it very responsive, very dynamic, functional and *most of all* free of bugs 09:17:12 Excellent idea. Then you can write the opengl backend for mcclim (: 09:17:22 Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 09:17:33 i started one but it got too overwhelming 09:18:33 i am kind of slow at figuring out new algorithms 09:19:25 hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 09:19:29 If I can remember things correctly then the factor UI uses opengl, and it seems quite responsive. So it all must be doable somehow (: 09:19:31 right now I'm doing the text wrapping at render time 09:19:48 well, you should probably start by reading a bunch of literature about making text editors fast 09:20:16 yeah, that was my original question, if anyone had any good links or anything 09:20:42 you can probably start with Troels Henriksen's discussion about Drei 09:20:44 http://sigkill.dk/blog/archives/297-I-can-put-what-in-my-buffer.html 09:20:45 i was reading about and half-implementing interval trees last week 09:20:45 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:21:28 manic12: I remember someone suggesting lists (or arrays etc, as long as it worked) of lines for buffer storage and implementing fast line-writing ops 09:21:32 *line-rendering 09:21:50 hefner? 09:21:54 I'm trying to remember if he's written anything more formal. 09:22:43 basically keeping a "view" and a source makes it so that you have to update both things, which more than doubles the effort 09:23:06 because you have to synchronize and coordinate them 09:24:12 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-188-164.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:24:15 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:39 Xof: the first paragraph on that link says it all! 09:27:56 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:28:35 um, I'm not sure that it does. Or if it does, maybe you should explain it 09:29:39 he's talking about the "exotic cases and conditions gnu emacs handles" 09:30:20 yes, and? 09:30:39 manic12: You shouldn't need so many exotic cases for just a lil' repl window. 09:31:04 the cases in editing functions handled by emacs doesn't have anything much to do with your question about display 09:31:09 manic12: Also I seem to remember Patzy implementing a lil' drop down listener thing in his opengl based game. 09:31:12 Patzy: wake up! 09:31:16 the old version had mouse sensitve text, but it slowed things down 09:31:25 oh 09:31:28 you want fancy stuff. 09:31:42 schmx: ? 09:31:55 Patzy: you made a lil' lisp listener drop down thingie in shmup didn't ya? 09:32:10 -!- schmx is now known as schme 09:32:27 mouse sensitive debugger restarts, collapsable/expandable interactions, all kinds of niceities 09:32:34 not a real "listener" 09:32:36 I see. 09:32:52 manic12: That's much more advanced than I read what you wanted :) 09:33:15 manic12: But I guess the idea is to only redraw the parts that need to be redrawn ;) 09:33:30 I got to a certain point and the bloat started showing 09:33:38 lovely. 09:33:47 I'll go eat some food then (: 09:34:22 is there something on the intarwebs about the shmup thing? 09:34:29 i think I have solved some important issues with this version, specifically with window message handling, redisplay and user input 09:34:49 jdz: Patzy has it in some git archive. 09:35:15 Patzy: You need to write a blog post! 09:35:17 well, not the source. mybe some screenies and stuff? :) 09:35:30 jdz: there used to be videos of the action even! 09:36:26 that would be cool. searching for shmup gets me too many non-related shmups, though. 09:36:43 *Patzy* searches the videos 09:36:47 what is a shmup? 09:37:12 shoot-em-up 09:37:42 ah, you learn something new everyday 09:38:06 http://appart.kicks-ass.net/patzy/files/shmup-videos/ 09:38:17 I think video5.avi show the input console thing 09:38:41 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [] 09:38:49 http://appart.kicks-ass.net/git/shmup.git for the ugly code 09:39:31 i was trying to tell my mother what a pain in the ass this project is and she said that the computer does that for her 09:41:30 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:42:47 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 09:44:05 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:07 computer tells her what a pain in the ass the work is she has it do? brilliant (: 09:47:59 Patzy: looks pretty nice 09:48:02 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f5430.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:49:06 jdz: :) 09:49:19 especially changing the weapon ammo texture :) 09:49:50 hehe 09:50:09 the idea was to bnuild some kind of editor with this 09:51:13 but I got distracted by other parts of the code and now project is almost stopped :) 09:52:47 well, at least code is out there 09:55:51 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:55:56 Patzy: haha, a shrimp'm'up 09:56:00 excellent 09:59:42 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:01:57 asksol_ [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 10:02:14 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-7-100.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 10:04:14 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 10:06:27 -!- antgreen [n=Anthony@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:06:39 Does anyone have a little example of sending a udp packet with sb-bsd-sockets? 10:06:53 antgreen [n=Anthony@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 10:07:56 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:10:39 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 10:11:07 mrSpec [n=Win@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 10:11:54 -!- mrSpec [n=Win@82.177.125.6] has left #lisp 10:12:49 ocnzhao [n=hgsghrnj@122.159.58.31] has joined #lisp 10:13:03 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:15:08 -!- ocnzhao [n=hgsghrnj@122.159.58.31] has left #lisp 10:19:09 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 10:19:12 G'day! 10:19:20 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:17 howdy 10:26:59 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 10:27:47 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 10:29:14 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:30:13 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 10:30:21 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit ["KVIrc 3.2.6 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/"] 10:32:58 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:36:14 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:39:23 *bob_f* waves at Gertm 10:40:25 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181130081.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:40:37 good afternoon 10:41:09 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:41:12 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:24 Gertm: there's a test that does just that, in the sb-bsd-sockets directory 10:41:30 Gertm: (in case you're still looking) 10:41:53 slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-128-83.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 10:42:31 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-250.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 10:43:24 -!- jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has left #lisp 10:43:38 antifuchs: hi! how's life? 10:43:50 pretty good, preparing for a big project (: 10:44:09 anything you can talk about? 10:44:14 not yet, but soon (: 10:44:27 also, setting up to print a huge 3d model on our 3d printer now. this is going to get very interesting (: 10:44:41 you have a 3d printer? 10:44:44 cool, but why? 10:44:57 to contribute to the reprap and makerbot projects (: 10:45:21 it's sweet but not very good yet... but hopefully good enough to print this architecture student's model (: 10:45:38 hee :) i have two unrelated questions: boinmarks mk2 -- when? ...and the gimme-chocolate-and-no-one-needs-to-get-hurt t-shirt, have you seen any? 10:47:04 oooh, yes. boinkmarks mk2. it's basically done, except for the rss feeds; I'll setup the redirects in the next couple of days 10:47:30 and argh, I forgot to look for the tshirt in september. I'll ask them today or tomorrow 10:47:42 coolios, and thanks! 10:47:55 hanna just reminded about the t the other day :) 10:48:02 hah (: 10:48:07 antifuchs: yes thanks I found it. That was what I needed! 10:48:16 Gertm: great (: 10:48:34 nikodemus: re. boinkmarks v2, you're asking mainly about the feeds, right? (: 10:49:02 is there a permanent url already? 10:49:29 i saw something in the logs a couple of weeks ago, but i thought that was a temporary thing 10:49:36 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 10:50:29 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:50:42 found it: http://sbcl.boinkor.net/boinkmarks/index 10:50:53 right 10:51:03 /boinkmarks should work now, too 10:52:30 are you ok publishing the url on sbcl.org? 10:52:58 no problem at all 10:54:09 is there a way to link to a particular zoomed-in benchmark? 10:54:16 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-7-76.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:54:30 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:36 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:54:45 *Xof* wishes for a logarithmic scale 10:54:48 not yet. will build that in right away 10:54:51 argh (: 10:55:05 oh, look, deflate-file came down nicely 10:55:20 log scale is hard with flot right now. will look into it, though 10:55:35 wow, boehm-gc sbcl/x86 is interesting 10:55:45 steady decrease since mid-2008 10:56:49 zooming did not do anything noticeable for me 10:56:51 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 10:57:25 oh, maybe it did, just insanely slowly 10:57:33 lower is better? 10:57:39 yeah, it's runtime 10:57:49 yeah, there's often way more data in the zoomed view than in the release one 11:00:45 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 11:02:45 is the zoom intentionally there only for the last two data points? 11:03:48 blitz_ [n=blitz@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:45 -!- _stern_ is now known as seelenquell 11:07:18 How do I move the cursor n-spaces to the right in format supplying n as a control argument? 11:07:56 ignas [n=ignas@78.59.166.221] has joined #lisp 11:08:52 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:10:03 ~v* 11:10:07 thx 11:11:11 wow, 1.0.27.17 was good 11:11:15 (format NIL "~v*BLAH" 4)? 11:11:39 doesn't work.. :( 11:12:49 possibly nikodemus meant ~vt 11:13:43 i thought the question was re. the "argument cursor" 11:14:17 I just want to move BLAH n spaces to the right. 11:14:24 As in the example above. 11:14:59 nikodemus: nope, it's activated for every release where it has sub-release results 11:15:16 ~,vt is it, then 11:15:42 since the upgrade I didn't manage to benchmark all releases, so if you want values for an older release, I can fire that up. 11:15:46 nikodemus: thx 11:16:33 antifuchs: no need right now at least 11:16:39 cool 11:16:55 how hard is it for you to add new benchmarks? 11:17:34 not really hard; historical values may take a while, but even that isn't too terrible 11:17:48 adding the permalinks-to-zoomedness thing now. should be done in a bit (: 11:18:39 is there a form that is easiest for you? just a single file with the code, or with defbenchmark etc? a patch? 11:18:45 coolness 11:19:36 patch is coolest (check out github/antifuchs/autobench/, branch "modernize" for source), followed by defbenchmark and then code (-: 11:21:00 ok, i'll probably send a few next week 11:21:05 great 11:21:38 (I'll have to tune the run times against my machine, but I think they should be able to run for about 3 seconds without running out of memory) 11:21:49 right 11:23:42 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042315]"] 11:25:20 hrm is there somewhere a general guide on how to debug with slime + common lisp? 11:27:13 not a good one that i know of, unfortunately 11:27:47 what are you trying to figure out? 11:28:30 are you familiar with the debugger and inspector in slime yet? 11:28:31 nikodemus: how to set a break point, step etc. 11:29:00 i've found the debugger section in the slime docs 11:29:09 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:29:11 but it doesn't say how i get into the debugger in the first place :/ 11:29:24 HET2: (break "here i am") 11:29:25 currently you set a breakpoint manually, type (break ...optional control string and args...) whereever you want to break 11:29:36 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 11:29:36 okay, thanks 11:29:38 ah. either you get an uncaught error, or you use (break) 11:29:45 if you are on sbcl, you can also do (trace your-function :break t) 11:29:48 (right, nikodemus got it) 11:30:25 HET2: in order to compile you defun with (optimize debug) you can use C-u C-c C-c (prefix-arg) 11:30:30 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:51 nikodemus: one more question (or two). whether I supply 0 or 1 the effect is the same, I get one space. Second question, the ~v seems to be missing from clqr, is this a non-ansi addition? 11:33:41 -!- Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:34:24 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [Client Quit] 11:34:24 nikodemus pasted "a little piece of evil i like to use for debugging" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81208 11:35:11 clhs: 22.3 11:35:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 11:35:28 9th paragraph down 11:35:41 (for antoszka) 11:36:44 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:36:47 antoszka: use ~,vt instead of ~vt -- the documentation for that is under ~t 11:36:59 ah, ok 11:37:03 cracki [n=cracki@46-203.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:37:08 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:37:43 hrm - my code crashes the debugger 11:37:53 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:39:18 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 11:43:08 nikodemus: http://paste.lisp.org/display/81209  still doesn't work 11:43:22 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:44:23 nikodemus: This code moves the caret to the first differing character in the strings. 11:44:37 nikodemus: just still doesn't work for the 0th (1st) char. 11:45:49 or, with the comma doesn't work anymore at all 11:48:36 nikodemus: ~v,0t  this turned out to be correct 11:49:25 ~0,vt works too, but i think ~,vt not working may be a bug 11:49:41 need to read the ~t more carefully to be sure, though 11:50:55 no, it's not a bug -- just bad advice on my part: both colnum and colinc default to 1, not zero 11:51:35 HET2: what do you mean? which implementation are you using? 11:52:14 nikodemus: yeah, just dug that out from the cryptc clqr description :) 11:53:02 Gertm [n=user@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 11:53:03 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 11:53:46 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:57:50 nikodemus: so does the magic v move the given parameter out of the format string? 11:58:05 ah, ok 11:58:12 it's at the end of the clqr section 11:58:26 V or #, it says. 11:58:40 nikodemus: sbcl 11:58:49 nikodemus: it says "debugger entered: nil" 12:01:09 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has joined #lisp 12:02:04 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-188-164.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:02:35 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 12:04:42 dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:34 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 12:07:02 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-188-164.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:08:32 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-160.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:09:30 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 12:09:37 hello 12:11:30 adityo [n=adityo@122.169.52.91] has joined #lisp 12:13:19 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:15:18 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:59 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:19:41 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:19:48 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [] 12:20:35 oconnore [n=oconnore@umass-947-243.wireless.umass.edu] has joined #lisp 12:21:44 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-190-50.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:22:24 rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-190-50.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 12:24:44 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:46 -!- tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:27:15 Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:29:44 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 12:30:35 minion: lisppaste 12:30:35 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 12:31:01 -!- Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 12:31:04 HET2: that sounds strange -- can you paste whatever you see in slime there? 12:32:34 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 12:33:13 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-188-164.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 12:34:40 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 12:34:44 Edward_ [i=Ed@90.3.238.241] has joined #lisp 12:35:16 novaburst [i=nova@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has joined #lisp 12:35:40 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-4-34-230.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:27 -!- rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-190-50.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:36:46 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 12:40:53 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-128-83.3g.claro.net.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:41:33 slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-128-83.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 12:42:11 Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:42:35 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:21 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:50 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:59:28 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 13:01:24 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 13:01:28 Good afternoon. 13:01:52 hi plage 13:02:35 jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has joined #lisp 13:03:21 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:03:39 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:04:21 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-66.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:09:51 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-66.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:10:25 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-66.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 13:14:30 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:14:47 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-47.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:19:29 -!- alpheus_ [n=user@98.215.226.98] has left #lisp 13:19:39 -!- asksol_ [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:20:50 i'm trying to add some shortcuts to slime, and slime-symbol-at-point returns a string without the "package prefix" in it .. is there a function that returns the full name of a symbol? 13:22:05 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:22:26 cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 13:22:36 or perhaps there is a better way .. or slime-symbol-at-point might not be the common way of doing this at all 13:24:03 ..the idea is to use slime-eval to call stuff like (swank:inspect-in-emacs #'princ) 13:24:30 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:02 anyone here using git (or darcs, or...) to work transparently on top of cvs? 13:26:26 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 13:27:45 what do you mean by "transparently"? 13:28:10 if yes, I'm wondering what exactly does it buy you, specifically does it buy you anything apart from being able to work in a proper private branch? like, does it ease merges between existing cvs branches, that is does it somehow infer change history? 13:28:47 git does 13:28:59 aha 13:29:34 jdz: any nice tutorials you could point me at? 13:30:21 there was a quite lengthy blog post on planet-lisp by somebody who imported a project which was started in cvs, then switched to svn, into git with the full history and stuff (which is impossible by cvs and svn separately). 13:30:59 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 13:31:04 jdz: must have been nikodemus, I think I remember now. thanks! 13:31:23 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:31:28 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:32:53 *cmm* is spoiled by 10 years of using clearcase, and cvs _so_ blows by comparison... 13:32:56 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:34:05 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:22 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:37:53 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:06 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:38:27 cmm: here it is - http://www.newartisans.com/2008/04/diving-into-git.html 13:39:05 the long story short: it's not easy/trivial, but it's doable. 13:39:20 I used tailor 13:41:07 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:41:29 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-128-83.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:41:48 -!- meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:42:18 meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:44 jdz, dlowe: thanks for the pointers 13:44:52 (and sorry about the offtopic) 13:45:05 You need someone to give you pointers? You've never done C? 13:45:26 everything is a pointer 13:46:48 dandersen: we C monkeys have weak google fu 13:51:19 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 13:52:30 Is there a way to let asdf download a package and put it in place without compiling it? 13:53:57 meingbg: asdf does not know anything about downloading 13:54:04 meingbg: maybe you mean asdf-install? 13:54:11 -!- reaver___ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:54:39 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:54:45 reaver___ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 13:54:53 there is an op load-source-op for asdf, but i don't know about asdf-install 13:54:59 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 13:56:05 yes, I meant asdf-install. 13:56:40 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-188-164.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:59:07 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:00:28 DarkRavin_ [n=thedarkr@adsl-4-34-230.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:41 -!- DarkRavin_ [n=thedarkr@adsl-4-34-230.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:01:06 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:21 Is it possible to let asdf-install download a package without compiling it? 14:02:24 -!- hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:02:25 slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-128-83.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 14:02:40 hnr_ [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:19 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:06:50 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:07:31 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["leaving"] 14:08:45 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:09:38 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.169.52.91] has quit ["leaving"] 14:11:25 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-128-83.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:13:23 Jasko [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:15 meingbg: i don't think so. you know where asdf-installable packages live, though, so you can always download manually 14:15:28 hacking asdf-install not to compile should not be too hard either 14:15:33 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.21.104] has joined #lisp 14:15:46 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.21.104] has left #lisp 14:15:58 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.21.104] has joined #lisp 14:16:07 nikodemus: ok. 14:16:07 chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-094-216-074-232.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:05 -!- chris2_ is now known as chris2 14:20:59 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:22:04 -!- hnr_ [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [] 14:24:05 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslff202.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:24:52 milanj [n=milan@79.101.169.99] has joined #lisp 14:27:13 nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:16 G'morning all. 14:28:00 hello nyef 14:28:05 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:28:51 -!- dys` is now known as dys 14:29:56 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-119-129.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 14:30:10 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:34 -!- ASau [n=user@host223-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 14:33:54 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@82.Red-79-150-114.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:34 c|mell [n=john@x250047.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 14:34:40 kidd2 [n=kidd@82.Red-79-150-114.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:52 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 14:35:52 btw, it looks like Clang might solve C++ FFI woes in the future... 14:36:53 at least the one concerning groveling of C++ code, generating C glue and Lisp side 14:37:08 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:38:25 mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:38:38 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 14:40:04 lambda1000 [n=lambda@cpe-071-065-237-135.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:40:09 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-4-34-230.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Going To Kill The Cat -- LOL No I'm Not Just Sleep"] 14:41:07 -!- frozsyn [n=FrozSyn@wafer.futurs.inria.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:42:46 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:42:46 -!- lambda1000 [n=lambda@cpe-071-065-237-135.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["leaving"] 14:43:02 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:44:02 JikanBae [n=marui@static-222-229-220-18.b-base.svips.gol.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:45:24 fiveop 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[n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:09 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:29:16 Greetings. 15:29:20 Hello tmh. 15:31:50 -!- c|mell [n=john@x250047.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:54 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.21.104] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:32:22 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.7.21] has joined #lisp 15:33:20 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-71-184-170-197.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:46 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:29 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-63-241.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:46:35 -!- Orest is now known as Orest^bnc 15:46:42 yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@95-37-112-245.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 15:47:05 -!- Orest^bnc is now known as Orest 15:48:50 projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has joined #lisp 15:49:42 Yuuhi 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[n=pradyus@117.192.7.39] has joined #lisp 15:59:28 xan [n=xan@174.Red-79-150-43.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:42 -!- maxote [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:01:27 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@90.3.238.241] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:02:24 maxote [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 16:03:40 paxcoder [n=paxcoder@unaffiliated/paxcoder] has joined #lisp 16:05:33 is there a channel for gnu clisp or does this serve the purpose as well? 16:06:38 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:41 I'm not aware of any other channel for gnu clisp. 16:07:12 k. so how did you guys get to start using lisp? and how come not scheme? 16:07:22 though you'll not get much gnu clisp love from here 16:07:34 dlowe: how come? 16:07:56 This channel was originally started by SBCL maintainers, and maintains a good amount of that bias. 16:08:10 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:21 oh. 16:08:22 paxcoder: I started with Scheme. 16:08:31 sellout: and you sold out then? 16:08:39 heh 16:08:40 Well before then! 16:09:10 sellout: what made you go to the lisp side? i mean the function names are uglier. ;-) 16:10:05 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:11 (i'm new to this functional things, so i'm asking around) 16:11:17 paxcoder: I was working on a language, trying to fix things in Java, Perl, Eiffel, whatever, and merge all the parts I wanted. Tried to add features that I later discovered were called metaprogramming and type inference. Came across things like Lisp and Haskell in my reading, and I passed through the singularity. 16:11:46 -!- dys` is now known as dys 16:11:53 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-63-241.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:11:57 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:12:14 sellout: are you saying there isn't such strange words in scheme? 16:12:21 *aren't 16:12:23 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:13:03 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@82.Red-79-150-114.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:13:09 paxcoder: Oh you mean to CL from Scheme? I thought you meant to Lisp (including Scheme) from other stuff. 16:13:48 paxcoder: I just got frustrated with the level of incompatibility between implementations. It was much less of a problem with CL. 16:13:51 X-Scale2 [i=email@89.180.227.11] has joined #lisp 16:14:00 kidd2 [n=kidd@82.Red-79-150-114.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:17 CL implementations are a bit more performant than scheme implementations, as well. 16:14:22 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 16:14:28 they are? what about Stalin? 16:15:10 tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:15:13 anyone else have different reasons why not scheme? 16:15:29 Lisp is practical. 16:15:30 tic: stalin only does whole-program compilation, no repl 16:15:34 fe[nl]ix, true. 16:15:35 sellout: what things are incompatible for example? 16:15:55 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:58 removing repl allows for quite fast code... 16:16:33 paxcoder: Why don't you try things for yourself? I recommend getting PLT Scheme and Emacs+SLIME+[SBCL|CLISP|CCL|] and playing around with them. 16:16:44 and why do Berkley and MIT prefer scheme (judging by their YouTube videos)? 16:16:44 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@84.42.251.245] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:16:49 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:16:56 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 16:16:56 paxcoder: SICP was written with Scheme in mind 16:17:01 http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/ 16:17:01 paxcoder: mit created scheme 16:17:11 paxcoder: Actually, MIT prefers python. 16:17:13 I suggest you will get the answers you seek more quickly and definitively by actually trying it 16:17:18 cp2: they created lisp 1.5 as well 16:18:08 dlowe: i don't think i would, to be frank. i'm only starting to learn functional programming, it'd just take more time... you know. 16:18:08 sbcl shows v.well in that shootout. 16:18:20 the schemes are also good, but not as good. 16:18:53 paxcoder: functional and lisp are two different ideas that aren't very connected 16:18:54 now, the semantics of benchmarking are obviously contentious, but I think the approach taken there is pretty reasonable. 16:18:57 p_l: yes, but that doesn't make it any better for development, only for deployment - hoping that it has no bugs because then debugging would be a nightmare 16:19:15 but here's what I don't like (defun functionp (arg) ...), this is much nicer: (define (function arg) ..) 16:19:46 paxcoder: write a macro. 16:20:01 paxcoder: OMG that's *so* nonsensical 16:20:03 the difference is so small it's a red herring. 16:20:09 paxcoder: (defmacro define ((name &rest arg) &body body) `(defun ,name ,arg ,body)) 16:20:16 paxcoder: You won't get the answers you seek, period, if you don't invest your own time. If you already prefer the scheme vocabulary, use scheme. 16:20:24 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:20:28 even assuming typing is a metric by which you determine the implementation language to use for a given system. 16:20:51 paxcoder: MIT also created Maclisp. 16:20:54 Fade: PG suggested so ;) 16:21:10 scheme's real advantage, imho, is it's integrated call/cc 16:21:36 dlowe: he did indeed. 16:21:45 tmh: :-( 16:22:03 perhaps that was the deciding factor in building arc in scheme and not CL. ;) 16:22:35 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 16:22:53 minion: thwap to Fade 16:22:54 Fade: please look at thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 16:23:11 meh 16:24:27 s/it\'s/its 16:24:51 -!- hnr [n=henry@62.49.66.13] has quit [] 16:25:35 mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 16:26:00 -!- tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:26:11 paxcoder: All I'm saying is that in the beginning, it makes no difference whether you choose Scheme or Common Lisp. So, just pick one and learn it. If the one you picked is not working out for you some time down the road, it's not that big of a deal to switch. Picking Scheme over Common Lisp because you prefer the vocabulary is as good a reason as any at the stage you're at. 16:27:15 it's easier to start out with scheme than CL if only because of the drscheme IDE. 16:27:18 Once you get a little further, you might choose based on language semantics, deployment options, available libraries, etc. 16:27:27 -!- rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-2abe6a8e5e7eeddb] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:27:32 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:28:15 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:28:28 especially if you're working on a non-unixoid platform. 16:28:35 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:28:52 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89-180-227-11.net.novis.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:29:10 Fade: i don't use IDE's actually. 16:29:25 parodyoflanguage [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:40 paxcoder: emacs, then, I hope? 16:29:47 in good lisp systems the editor and the compiler and the repl are deeply integrated. 16:30:03 nyef: basically an ide ;-) 16:30:12 if you're an emacs-phile, CL will prolly make you happier. 16:30:24 -!- cracki [n=cracki@46-203.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 16:30:36 if not, look at scheme, especially if you're using windows. 16:30:50 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:30:51 So, is there such a concept as a "dde", or "disintegrated develoment environment"? 16:31:02 -!- rtra [n=user@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:31:14 HG` [n=wells@xdslgg101.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:31:17 nyef: that's practically the adjectival description of unix. ;) 16:31:26 Heh. 16:31:42 Fade: nyef: I use GNU+Linux, and edit with nano or le. 16:31:43 Fade: that would be an "emactophile" 16:32:12 *Fade* gives fe[nl]ix the gold star :) 16:32:51 although id love to work on integrating slime with "Emacs code browser" 16:33:20 basically i'm still searching for my editor (or will do my own). As I said I'm just starting with this, and for C, PHP and others I also used gedit. I tried emacs once, I'll have to think about it again. 16:33:22 I thought ECB was a nice idea, but it really didn't work for me in practice. 16:33:29 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-63-241.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:34:13 well, currently i have it bound so i can get a quick tree view of my files on the left hand side of the screen 16:34:17 paxcoder: if you haven't developed an editor bias, emacs will make your life easier. 16:34:24 works a little nicer for me than dired mode 16:34:26 paxcoder: You can set emacs to use CUA-style keybindings if you want. 16:34:38 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:56 particularly if you're interested in lisp. 16:35:27 parodyoflanguage: but what's the point of using emacs if i'm going to cripple it down to nano? 16:35:35 Yeah, that's the thing. With lisp, emacs is dominant. Other programming languages aren't like that. 16:35:45 parodyoflanguage: scratch that... umm. gedit? 16:35:53 paxcoder: You can use slime, etc. 16:36:03 gedit uses CUA doesn't it? 16:36:15 it's largely an artifact of the reality that emacs is a lisp that happens to manifest an editor. 16:36:24 id just like to have a "live inspector" so i can see things like classes defined in current package, functions defined in current package...i can do all these things manually, id just like to have a nice little window i can look at and only interact with when needed 16:36:30 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-63-241.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:36:31 -!- bernd_ [n=berndj@196.7.137.175] has left #lisp 16:36:40 parodyoflanguage: yes, that's why i said gedit not nano. nano has its own stuff. 16:36:45 right? 16:37:10 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:37:36 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit ["later"] 16:37:58 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:37 how do you start emacs in command line mode again? 16:38:51 -nx maybe? 16:39:12 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:39:12 to display on a terminal? emacs -nw 16:39:19 Or there's some sort of script option... 16:39:33 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 16:39:38 mcspiff: nx is nice tho ;-) 16:39:43 Fade: thx 16:39:52 ok, thx for the chat guys. cya 16:39:55 -!- paxcoder [n=paxcoder@unaffiliated/paxcoder] has left #lisp 16:40:21 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-188-164.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:42:28 emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:43:09 ug embedded c coding at school has killed my desire to work on anything lisp (or programming related in general) when i do get free time. depressing. 16:44:05 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:44:20 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@82.Red-79-150-114.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:44:23 mcspiff: So... Acknowledge that the situation is temporary, and then take up knitting or something. 16:44:46 *tmh* could use some mittens. 16:44:59 *nyef* was thinking fingerless gloves. 16:45:30 A klein bottle wolly cap? 16:45:31 mcspiff: extra points if you knit a lambda on the top of the mittens over the fingers. 16:45:45 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:09 Jarvellis: I'm hoping to do a mobius strip scarf. Does that count? 16:46:15 aha i was about to complain about #lisp wanting free stuff, and then I remembered about the whole "sbcl is free software thing" 16:46:24 nyef: it's a good start, go for the set 16:46:25 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:46:42 *Jarvellis* wonders what four/five dimensional items nyef could knitt 16:47:23 Well, I'm currently practicing with two and three dimensional items, so it might be a while. 16:48:36 (Started trying to switch to continental style knitting from english style last weekend, and while I like it I still haven't quite got the hang of it.) 16:49:05 I did manage to start using the long-tail cast-on, though. I'm hoping to get to practice it again soon. 16:50:06 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087BCFE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:05 -!- Corun is now known as Corun|away 16:51:08 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:51:15 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:34 hmmm a break from personal coding might not be a horrible idea. Knitting.. well, we'll see ;-) 16:51:53 Hmm, is knitting fun? 16:52:01 -!- prip [n=_prip@host230-122-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:52:06 cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 16:52:32 Jarvellis: I find that it can be, provided that you can hold a conversation or listen to music or an audiobook while you knit. 16:52:38 i need a break 16:52:50 I could get an ebook reader thingie 16:52:55 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:52:57 With a foot pedal to change pages 16:53:29 The problem with that is going to be propping it up at a convenient height. 16:53:34 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Success] 16:53:42 knitting + complex geometry: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/margaret_wertheim_crochets_the_coral_reef.html 16:53:47 ah, sorry, crochet. 16:53:55 I find that I can almost always free a hand for some short task partway through a row. 16:53:56 cl/scheme... same shit. 16:54:16 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:54:27 ssdl ? 16:54:36 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 16:54:39 I'll nail it to a wall 16:54:43 Apparently, some knitting needles have hooks on the tips similar to crochet hooks. 16:54:51 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslgg101.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:54:59 #knitting 16:56:33 prip [n=_prip@host230-122-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:56:33 -!- emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:57:06 I can just imagine at some point in the future, some lisp conference where half the attendees are wearing hand-knit clothing of some sort with obvious lisp theme to them. 16:57:16 hah 16:57:22 emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:57:35 Call/cc socks, fingerless gloves with lambdas on the backs, SLAD caps, etc. 16:57:51 The Y-combinator scarf. 16:58:04 hmm about time for lisp to act its age and take up knitting 16:58:22 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:58:48 i'd have to look at the pattern, but the traditional irish cable sweater might already be many mobius strips. 16:59:40 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:59:50 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:02:03 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-4-31.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:02:30 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 17:03:17 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:23 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-07bc85031721bfdb] has joined #lisp 17:09:31 -!- Corun|away is now known as Corun 17:11:03 -!- reaver___ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"] 17:11:40 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:12:39 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 17:14:01 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:27 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 17:14:45 -!- novaburst [i=nova@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:15:19 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:15:57 chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-094-216-086-187.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:33 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-5-232.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:19:17 -!- jao [n=jao@202.Red-83-42-111.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:20:37 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:20:51 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 17:21:59 jao [n=jao@100.Red-81-32-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:00 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [] 17:23:18 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 17:23:26 ok, that's all 1.0.28.x regressions i can find take care of 17:23:32 taken, even 17:23:59 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78.59.166.221] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:24:01 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-074-232.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:24:03 now, the question is, why was i not running ansi tests earlier this month? 17:24:13 MrPat [n=MrPat@dhcp-pa-67-20-227-48.consolidated.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:17 'cos it's really a pretty good suite 17:24:54 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:25:16 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:55 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:27:01 ceineke_ [n=chris@dhcp-0-24-1-2b-fc-77.cpe.cabletv.on.ca] has joined #lisp 17:29:30 -!- MrPat [n=MrPat@dhcp-pa-67-20-227-48.consolidated.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:31:22 hyperboreean [n=none@89.18.3.66] has joined #lisp 17:33:26 legumbre: got your paste last night, thanks 17:34:41 -!- nullwork [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:38:18 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:55 -!- jao [n=jao@100.Red-81-32-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 17:41:47 -!- emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:43:14 hrm how do i do letrec in common lisp 17:43:29 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:43:30 What was letrec again? 17:43:36 is that the same as let* ? 17:43:38 Might it be LABELS? 17:44:02 http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/Lisp/comp.lang.lisp/2005-02/0590.html 17:44:05 nyef: labels or let* except in a Lisp-1 17:44:06 nyef: allows (let ((narf (lambda (x) (funcall narf x))))) 17:44:16 Sounds like LABELS. 17:44:19 answer, /w labels 17:44:24 thanks 17:44:41 looks quite elegant 17:46:21 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:33 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Client Quit] 17:48:38 Hun` [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:48:44 parolang` [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:13 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:50:45 Actually, I take that back. LETREC is not like LET*, even accounting for Lisp-1/Lisp-2 differences. 17:50:45 danlei [n=user@pD9E2C34B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:14 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:52:17 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:52:20 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:54:39 nyef: letrec was the thing you killed from sbcl :P 17:54:53 that's why it sounds so familiar... 17:54:59 Ah, right, named-let-must-die. 17:55:02 hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 17:55:27 I'm still thinking we should do something about SBCLs ONCE-ONLY. 17:58:36 gigamonkey pasted "Guy Steele's list of languages he's used "seriously"" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81228 17:58:54 nyef: depend on alexandria? :) 17:58:54 copy the one from alexandria? (it allows both the extended form from sbcl's, and the "normal" one) 17:59:19 No, no... Why the heck does SBCLs ONCE-ONLY behave like LET* ? 17:59:29 it does? 17:59:34 Yup. 17:59:50 example? 17:59:50 gigamonkey: do you know if that is in any particular order? 17:59:53 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:00:19 manic12: Stream of consciousness. I took out everything but the names of the languages. 18:00:20 I'm not sure if it's used, but... You can refer to earlier bindings when creating later ones. 18:00:27 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:00:38 what, how? 18:01:00 you can't mean i should just go and look, do you? :P 18:01:16 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 18:01:17 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:29 minion: paste 50355? 18:01:29 Paste number 50355: "A tale of two once-onlies" by nyef in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/50355 18:01:55 That's the actual code, along with a rewrite and something that doesn't do remotely the same thing... 18:03:03 Essentially, a later once-only spec can refer to an earlier one to grab the value through the gensym. 18:04:05 (once-only ((nx x) (ny nx)) ...)? 18:04:19 Basically, yeah. 18:04:21 that's... sick 18:04:28 I think it's -used- somewhere, though. 18:04:50 intentionally? 18:04:55 mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 18:05:02 enn [n=eli@codeanddata.com] has joined #lisp 18:05:03 This is why the wierd expansion scheme, too. 18:06:16 actually wouldn't x and y be an approp case for this -- do an init function once, and set initial state for a grid/gfx 18:07:23 nyef: how many times does X get evaluated in nikodemus's example? 18:07:36 gigamonkey: Once. 18:07:39 -!- parolang` [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:07:44 That's the point of once-only, after all. 18:08:14 Right. 18:08:23 But then what's the point of the (ny nx) binding? 18:08:45 There'd be a point if it were (ny `(something ,nx)). 18:08:59 Ah. 18:09:26 nikodemus pasted "ohmigod, you're right" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81231 18:10:04 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 18:10:17 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:10:47 i claim that's a bug in sbcl's version 18:11:04 why not a bug in alexandria? 18:11:04 mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 18:11:04 And I claim that it might actually be used in SBCL. 18:11:06 maybe we use it, but we should not 18:11:29 dcrawford: because i wrote it and intended it to work like that :) 18:11:49 alexandria or sbcl :P 18:12:39 alexandria's once-only... 18:12:58 Heh. do-physenv-ir2-blocks -could- use this. 18:13:05 (compiler/meta-vmdef) 18:13:22 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:22 nyef: can you think of a hack that would expose any ambiguous uses in our code? 18:13:35 well, environment hackery works... 18:13:44 rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:52 I'm looking at uses of once-only now, thanks to grep. 18:14:10 ok. i can't think of a use-case for the sbcl's behaviour at all 18:14:17 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 18:14:29 *nyef* points to do-physenv-ir2-blocks again as a use-case. 18:15:08 hm, maybe we do need once-only* :) 18:15:44 nyef: check out `ack' which is a much better alternative to grep 18:16:24 Aha! Found it. Second instance in compiler/array-tran.lisp. 18:17:05 Using grep from an M-x eshell buffer is also nice 18:17:34 Can anyone tell me if this indicates a mistake on my part? I have an SBCL stream on a socket that was closed (the server process was killed). When I call close on that stream, it seems to hang forever. Is that expected, or did I do something bad? 18:18:11 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:18:59 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 18:19:34 So, which way do we want to spin this? Fix any uses that assume LET* and change the implementation of ONCE-ONLY, change do-physenv-ir2-blocks to assume LET*, or add ONCE-ONLY* and effectively do -both-? 18:19:39 Good evening. 18:19:42 Evening. 18:19:42 Hello beach. 18:19:46 rpg: I always had bad luck mucking with sbcl streams and sockets 18:19:58 heya, beach 18:20:26 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0DC8.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:20:37 code/debug-var-io.lisp, read-var-string is another use-case. 18:20:53 Same file, read-packed-bit-vector. 18:21:12 benny [n=benny@i577A2DD0.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:21:12 dlowe: I have an application that wants to restart, and it wants to close its streams. So I need an idiom for robustly closing a stream on a socket. 18:21:19 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.7.39] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:21:39 I'll happily do the cleanup on these, provided we have agreement on what to do. 18:21:42 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:21:54 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 18:22:10 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Client Quit] 18:22:11 rpg: You could try closing the socket fd directly and letting the stream be gc'd? 18:22:12 yerg... cl-yacc repo is currently broken. :P 18:22:23 dlowe: Mind finalizers. 18:22:23 *dlowe* isn't sure it would be gc'd, but it's possible. 18:22:46 Just wondering if this is a known issue or not... 18:23:47 And again, code/pprint.lisp, enqueue. 18:24:15 Hm. The socket responds t to socket-open-p, so it clearly doesn't "know" the connection has been lost. 18:24:24 And again, code/type-class.lisp, !invoke-type-method. 18:25:01 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 18:28:20 say, does anybody know of a way to evaluate an s-expression in the current lexical environment? 18:28:38 so that, for instance, you could do something like this: 18:28:48 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:48 nzodd: with standard Common Lisp, no. 18:28:48 (setf code '(setq x 5) ) 18:28:57 oh... 18:29:01 damn 18:29:35 Now, you can export a "similar" lexenv to code you wish to eval, but that's kindof nasty. 18:29:47 nzodd: If you are using EVAL, you are very likely doing something wrong anyway. 18:30:22 Where was it I saw an eval recently that would have been too much effort to get rid of...? 18:30:26 likewise when you're using SETF at toplevel 18:30:31 SBCL backend, I think. 18:30:35 nyef: if you have the energy, ONCE-ONLY* probably leads to the cleanest tree and nicest macro-expansions 18:31:09 What's with the once-only that takes values? I thought once-only worked like (once-only (n1 n2 n3) ...) 18:31:25 probably... I'm kind of new to common lisp... I'm trying to write a pseudo-finite state machine that also optionally modifies a few variables on transitions 18:31:28 I.e. just names (which would normally be the names of parameters from the enclosing macro. 18:31:36 gigamonkey: the value-taking is an extension of the classic one 18:31:57 nikodemus: I'll put it on my list for early .29, then. 18:32:15 but I don't want the vars to leak out into the dynamic environment 18:32:28 more compact code for some hairy cases, and (once-only ((nx x)) ...) is sometimes easier to keep track of (since you can rename the variables) 18:32:29 nzodd: you can pass closures *into* arbitrary code that they can use to set local variables. 18:33:06 There are a few cases where we have (once-only ((foo foo)) ...) for various values of foo. 18:33:20 Should we include support for the simpler case for these? 18:33:25 nzodd: which may or may not be relevant to what you're trying to do. 18:33:56 gigamonkey: how would you go about doing that? I tried that tact earlier, but it seemed like it was just begging the question... 18:34:04 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:34:05 nyef: i'd vote yes 18:34:06 nzodd: you can also write your states with labels within a let to hold your "private" state between the labels functions 18:34:08 nyef: what kinds of things do you use the value binding form for. I would have expected mostly the simpler form. 18:35:16 i do think the simpler form is almost always preferable, with explicit lets for any hair you need 18:35:22 ejs0 [n=eugen@99-92-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:26 nyef annotated #81231 "An example from src/code/pprint.lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81231#1 18:35:33 hmm... i see... thanks jleija 18:35:47 nikodemus annotated #81231 "here's the case nyef mentioned" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81231#2 18:35:50 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 18:35:51 nzodd: sorry, hard to say without more detail about what you're really trying to do. 18:36:51 yeah I know... i'm finding it a bit hard to explain myself... i'll try to pare down the code to the critical elements and maybe come back later 18:36:57 thanks for your help though 18:37:58 bwahahaha, asdf cannot still be refactored properly, as even if clisp now supports method combinations properly, abcl doesn't! 18:38:01 hilarious 18:38:16 nikodemus: heh. 18:38:39 obviously more method combination users in the wild are needed, so that we can start actually assuming it is impemented... 18:39:01 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46749.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 18:40:27 This'll make a nice break from sorting out CLX GL/GLX bugs. 18:40:45 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:01 -!- ausente [n=lhugbj@187.35.194.80] has quit ["ejct"] 18:41:21 prune abcl out of the supported implementations list for asdf. 18:42:16 abcl seems to be getting more users... 18:42:57 in particular the run-on-JVM users especially with JSR 223 ('scripting' language plugins) support 18:43:31 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46749.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:35 *Fade* wonders what happened /w Fare's work on a replacement for asdf 18:43:58 an intern just started this week that's working on it 18:45:20 -!- yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@95-37-112-245.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [No route to host] 18:45:58 if abcl doesn't do method combination correctly, that's a pretty serious bug in abcl. 18:46:25 yakman_ [n=bot@94-194-134-155.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:47:00 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 18:47:07 does sbcl compile its statements in (eval) before running them? 18:47:36 depends on sb-ext:*evaluator-mode* 18:47:44 kk 18:47:47 ty :) 18:47:49 ill check that 18:47:50 though sufficiently trivial expressions are never compiled 18:48:11 eg. (some-functions ..arguments...) 18:48:25 my one is set to :compile so yes 18:48:29 kidd2 [n=kidd@82.Red-79-150-114.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:36 that's the default 18:49:00 :interpret is useful if you need to really just evaluate some stuff once 18:49:10 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:57 but cases where that matters are few and far between in terms of efficiency 18:50:10 ok 18:50:36 some people also like :interpret for flexibility: macro redefinitions take effect immediately in interpreted functions without needing to recompile them 18:50:50 im just wondering cause i got this function running in eval doing a lot of maths 18:51:06 its taking very long, perhaps because of float issues it will never end 18:51:13 ok, so that rules out slowless because of interpretation 18:51:18 if you are calling EVAL repeatedly, it's always going to be slow 18:51:45 no, just called it once 18:51:47 interrupt it and see what it is doing (unless you're on windows, where interrupts don't work...) 18:51:53 ah 18:51:55 good idea 18:51:56 -!- gmlk [n=gmlk@alicia.demon.nl] has quit [] 18:52:02 Fade: Fare was looking for alpha testers and/or collaborators the other day. 18:54:28 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:56:44 Which datastore for elephant has best performance? 18:57:08 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:57:20 time to go home -- good night 18:57:23 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181130081.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:58:20 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-211-128.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 18:59:01 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:00:06 meingbg: the in memory store is going to be a lot faster than the on-disk stores, so it depends on your data. 19:00:09 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 19:00:39 i've only used elephant with postgresql. 19:00:48 Fade: ok. 19:02:17 nzodd pasted "fsm-plus.lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81235 19:02:26 i've used it with bdb, never had to benchmark the performance, never was an issue. so id agree with Fade ... depends on the data? 19:03:05 apparently rucksack is quite nice, as well. 19:04:10 gigamonkey: ok, I pasted the relevant code in... basically, I'm trying to define and run what is essentially a finite state machine, but with effects as well as preconditions at each transition 19:04:27 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:54 I'm going to run an application with a normal-sized database on a low-RAM machine. 19:05:05 ooooooooh that paste area has color-coded parentheses... fancy :D 19:06:07 nzodd: Not really, since the parentheses are the last thing you want to think about. 19:06:37 meingbg: then standard database selection criteria apply. if you're doing a lot of reads, the bdb backend will probably be faster, but if you're writing a lot, look at an actual rdbms. 19:06:40 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:06:41 mcspiff: Fade: If both of you have used disk-based stores without any issues, then I might as well try it. 19:07:35 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:07:47 beach: well... I suppose... but as a beginner it seems... potentially useful 19:08:00 maybe i'm just easily impressed / entertained 19:08:37 meingbg: a heads up that almost drove me to drink: cffi has a uffi compatibility layer. by default clbuild uses this. It does not work for elephant. you must use actual uffi. 19:08:42 Fade: I'm concerned about read performance. 19:09:49 mcspiff: ok, thanks for that one. 19:10:28 Fade: And licensing issues. I understand bdb isn't really free? 19:10:43 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:11:29 sleepycat isn't free. i dunno about other bdbs, though. 19:11:39 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:43 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-148-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:11:48 the gnu version is free enough. 19:11:52 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 19:12:33 Wait, have I missed something? I thought Sleepycat *was* Berkeley? 19:12:43 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.100.126] has quit ["Log this!"] 19:13:03 BDB is GPL. 19:13:13 Sleepycat == BDB 19:13:17 nzodd, I noticed you used . in your defstruct concs ( foo.bar- 19:13:40 haha yeah... bad form right? 19:13:41 It's free if you can use GPL, if not, you can get a commercial license from them. 19:13:52 Sleepycat is now owned by Oracle. 19:13:57 it's syntactically correct though, right? 19:14:49 technically, but using . in names is often asking for trouble b/c of dotted-pair notation 19:15:08 ohh right 19:15:49 nzodd: You are new here right? 19:15:49 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:54 How does elephant/clsql/sqlite perform against el/bdb? 19:15:54 hadn't thought of that; but doesn't dotted pair require whitespace on both sides? 19:15:58 beach: yeah 19:16:15 nzodd: what made you come here? 19:16:15 and get- is kindof not right b/c it's a to way setf place accessor rather than just a reader 19:16:37 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 19:16:51 meingbg: i'd think not so well 19:16:57 beach: I'm trying to pick up common lisp... and I had a question about eval-ing in the lexical environment 19:17:06 s/a to way/a two way/ 19:17:12 sqlite and performance don't quite go together 19:17:17 nzodd: What made you want to pick up Common Lisp? 19:17:39 work :D 19:17:56 Oh, interesting! Where do you work? 19:18:02 xristos: Really? *They* are boasting about performance, at least... 19:18:16 a pretty small company in northern va. 19:18:17 who is boasting about performance ? 19:18:53 as in a name w/ only 3 letters :P ? 19:19:13 meingbg: http://www.sqlite.org/whentouse.html 19:19:24 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-148-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:27 rpg: ping 19:19:42 fe[nl]ix 19:19:45 hi 19:19:47 http://www.activecomputing.org/ 19:19:53 meingbg: i really lke rucksack personally. 19:20:04 nzodd: Ouch. 19:20:11 -!- ejs0 [n=eugen@99-92-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:20:13 pretty cool place to work... but small 19:20:18 nzodd: wrong person 19:20:25 haha i was wondering 19:20:30 xristos: Should have read that. 19:20:44 I noticed the line: "and we have a history of doing this faster than most people think is possible" 19:20:44 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:20:53 nzodd: Thanks! Very interesting! 19:20:56 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 19:20:57 screams we use lisp nanana nana 19:21:00 :D 19:21:25 bmp [n=bmp@66.237.165.254.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:35 rpg: SB-BSD-SOCKETS:SOCKET-OPEN-P only checks whether the socket was explicitly closed or not, it doesn't check for the TCP status of the connection 19:21:49 drewc: What backend do you use with rucksackfh 19:21:54 nzodd: cl-meta might be of interest to you. I enjoyed and learned a lot reading its ps documentation. 19:22:00 meingbg: rucksack is pure-lisp. 19:22:01 s/fh/\?/ 19:22:02 Is there an easy way in Lisp to do a .NET-style AppDomain? Whereby I mean: I want to execute a sexp with limited rights; certain functions, such as working files, not accessible, but the general language (CLOS, etc.) unaffected. 19:22:11 drewc: Really? 19:22:16 meingbg: yes. 19:22:24 ah, cool, I'll take a look; thanks 19:22:29 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:22:36 drewc: it could use some advertising 19:22:48 it integrates very well with CLOS (support class redefintion on the fly), and is quite performant. 19:23:01 -!- Corun is now known as Corun|away 19:23:12 fe[nl]ix: Is there some way to check that and just crush the stream if the status is bad? Or should I hit it with a big hammer and simply use with-timeout? 19:23:15 drewc: That makes me ask two questions: Can you iterate over a given class's instances, and can you gc the db? 19:23:39 xristos: it could indeed. My new cliki engine uses it for user data, i'll mention that when it's finally deployed to wiki.alu.org. 19:23:43 meingbg: yes, and yes 19:23:44 jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 19:23:58 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:24:04 meingbg: in fact, GC is an essential part of how rucksack stores data. 19:24:09 -!- Corun|away is now known as Corun 19:24:19 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:24:25 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:24:37 it never overwrites instances, rather updates the pointer to a new instance an, when no references exist, gc's the old instance. 19:24:54 drewc: Sounds good. But will persistent objects get gc'd automatically? With elephant you have to delete them manually as I understand it. 19:25:35 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 19:25:52 meingbg: depends what you mean 'automatically' ... GC of persistent objects only makes sense if you've explicitly asked for them to be removed ... otherwise they're not really persitent are they? 19:25:53 meingbg: it has a gc 19:27:03 you should read this: http://weitz.de/eclm2006/rucksack-eclm2006.txt 19:28:53 bmp: no. 19:29:01 rpg: use getsockname() on the socket FD. if it returns no error, the TCP connection is certainly valid; if it returns ECONNRESET it is certainly closed; if it returns any other error you should close it anyway 19:29:35 fe[nl]ix: OK, I close the socket. But then is there anything I can do about the stream? 19:29:38 drewc: That's how people think of it? I think of persistency merely as the correspondance between object in memory and on disk. 19:29:53 bmp: And I hope you won't find any other language like that either, because you couldn't write a debugger then. 19:29:58 IIUC the manual, when you try to close a socket, the method diverts to closing the attached stream. 19:30:12 And that seems to be what caused the function to hang. 19:30:39 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:30:58 beach: Both Java and .NET allow restrictions like that, but they're implemented at the virtual machine level, not the language level. Adding it to CL I anticipated would be difficult, but I thought there might be some way of achieving it by altering the eval environment or something similar. 19:31:00 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [] 19:31:39 jao [n=jao@240.Red-83-38-59.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:56 bmp: how do these environments decide whether you are a developer or a user? 19:32:34 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:42 meingbg: i'm not sure how that relates, or what you're asking. 19:33:03 beach: It doesn't quite work like that. Say my application wants to load an untrusted plug-in that has a function string-to-image, which rasterizes an image. 19:33:26 beach: When I load the library, I remove permissions to access the file system, etc., from the code. Then I call the function. 19:33:49 beach: Although it can still go crazy within limits, hogging the CPU or whatnot, it can't scribble around the file system, write over my application's memory, or similar. 19:34:28 Similar functions are available in most modern operating systems at the process level--e.g., OS X provides the sandbox APIs. 19:34:45 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:34:56 drewc: You said that persistent objects need to be deleted explicitly, or they're not persistent. I said oh, then I must have misunderstood the word. 19:35:08 bmp: I am not following you, but that's probably because I am not used to the kind of environment you are describing. 19:35:17 beach: one thing we didn't get to talk about at els was what we should try to do next, academiawise. (Except that it should be in swedish) 19:35:23 bmp, but that way lies the locked out phone oses 19:35:29 bmp: We've dealt with that before, having had to write our own scripting engine :-P 19:35:48 Krystof: I don't have a current project. Do you? 19:35:52 Phoodus: That's what I figured you'd end up doing if you really wanted to implement this--basically writing your own Lisp in CL that only had safe operations. 19:36:15 dcrawford: There are legitimate reasons that don't involve being kafka-esque. 19:36:28 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 19:36:30 I'm very curious to see ANY other language that supports memory quotas, CPU quotas, thread quotas, selected sandbox accesses, etc. Java has _some_ of that, but it's easily worked around 19:36:48 For example, that's how Chrome works (though they have to serialize everything over IPC) 19:37:00 beach: I have too many. Not many of them are interesting or lisp-related. 19:37:43 Krystof: Send me a description of the remaining ones and I'm sure we can reach an agreement? 19:38:03 Porting sbcl to llvm? Surely there's a paper hiding in there. :) 19:38:03 Krystof: But perhaps you are not talking about articles? 19:38:11 meingbg: I see .. what do you call 'persistence' then? and what do you mean by 'deleted', etc? 19:38:16 I'll go with work towards an article 19:38:28 Phoodus: .NET AppDomains provide selected sandbox access, but not (AFAIK) CPU and memory quotas. They do, however, allow you to block reflection and debugging, which blocks the workarounds that I know of in Java. 19:38:40 -!- yakman_ [n=bot@94-194-134-155.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 19:38:51 I'm only asking because I had a discussion with a coworker over how something similar could be achieved in CL; I'm not looking to do this soon. 19:39:01 java's sandbox API also blocks (the dangerous parts of) reflection and debugging. 19:39:02 bmp: yeah, I presumed as much, since .Net is a java spinoff 19:39:11 foom: you will be glad to hear that Scott McKay was suitably controversial in Milan 19:39:21 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:39:22 Krystof: oh, I didn't even know he went 19:39:31 doubtless ITA will see a huge jump in clojure hackers applying to work on the big project of fun 19:39:34 Krystof, oh really? anything I should ask him? (he's down the hall) 19:39:39 Krystof: Let's move this to email. I would like to know some more specifics about what you are saying. 19:39:43 incidentally, the MUD/MUCK/MU* systems do have shared servers running untrusted user code in sandboxes 19:39:43 beach: Ok 19:40:07 again, custom scripting languages with preemptive user-space scheduling 19:40:10 Krystof: "the big project of fun"? Is that what ITA is writing? 19:40:35 something like that 19:40:57 *dcrawford* wait, we're doing something with clojure? ... 19:41:14 dcrawford: oh, nothing to ask him; he was there to say that CL was really bad and we should all be working on the next lisp with a better concurrency model and webapp deployment out of the box 19:41:22 Phoodus: .NET's actually more a DCOM spin-off than a Java spin-off, especially in the security department. That has pluses and minuses, depending on what you're trying to do. Either way, though, I'd rather just stay the fuck away from both technologies. :) 19:41:36 heh 19:42:23 I think .Net is a very good system IF you're a Win32-only programmer, since it's a big step up from C/VB/etc. Other than that, yeah I agree. (and I'm not a Win32 programmer) 19:42:32 rpg: close the FD directly, but also (setf (sb-sys:fd-stream-fd ) -1) 19:42:51 fe[nl]ix: Thank you very much for the help! 19:43:08 Krystof: did he give a talk about that? 19:43:57 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:12 Laurens` [n=Laurens@s55911afa.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #lisp 19:44:12 foom: Scott was one of the keynote speakers, but that talk was more a reflection of his life with Lisp. 19:44:13 foom: yes. Intermixed with reminiscences from symbolics 19:44:25 -!- Laurens` [n=Laurens@s55911afa.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit ["Ik ga weg"] 19:44:29 foom: he was also on a panel about the "future of lisp" 19:44:49 oh dear. that was repeated because it went so well at ILC? 19:45:14 to be fair, he was invited at short notice because Kent had to pull out 19:45:34 and actually he didn't get brickbats thrown, mostly. I expressed my disagreement mostly politely 19:46:29 You can disagree with his opinions, but not with the facts, nor with his experiences. 19:47:08 that's true, but I had disagreements with things that he presented as facts 19:47:13 "you can't have generic sequences in CL" 19:47:19 Sure. 19:47:32 Joreji [n=user@42-104.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:48:40 Having said that, I think Scott is one of the few people who know how to write a specification, so people who haven't tried that should have some humility still. 19:50:35 Anyway, it's way past my bedtime. Good night! 19:50:41 drewc: Persistence to me is that an instance in memory is stored on disk as well, and won't be deleted as long as the in-memory instance is alive or it's reachable through the store root. In my view, having to delete instances explicitly makes you think RDB. 19:51:22 drewc: But rucksack doesn't look too bad, I'm reading up on it right now. 19:51:29 it's almost certain that CL can be extended to have all the missing features. I mean, look at C! 19:54:36 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:55:28 rubendv [n=rubendv@dD5774DAF.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 19:55:39 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-119-129.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 19:58:40 *nyef* sighs. 19:58:45 I clearly fail at once-only. 20:01:07 drewc: Ah, it seems persistent objects may be removed implicitly from rucksack the way I want, when defclass is provided the (:indexed nil) option. 20:04:08 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:08 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:04:44 -!- jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:06:28 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit ["leaving"] 20:06:33 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:01 -!- jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:07:19 jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has joined #lisp 20:07:59 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-188-164.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:11:44 drewc: is your new wiki.alu.org going to preserve the old wiki content? 20:13:24 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:13:34 hoy 20:14:17 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:46 Bed time! Good night! 20:14:47 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068081188.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:50 nyef pasted "A tale of two more once-onlies" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81239 20:15:09 nikodemus: Do these look more-or-less right? 20:16:20 gigamonkey`: yup .. we crawled google cache and archive.org 20:16:43 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:17:07 *nyef* tweaks a couple things to do with gensymming in once-only. 20:17:07 gigamonkey`: http://cliki.tech.coop:8888/ is the current version, and is close to what will become wiki.alu.org 20:17:52 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 20:18:33 Hrm... Something isn't quite right... 20:18:37 nyef: aside from (GENSYM "ONCE-ONLY") -- i at least would prefer (gensym (symbol-name name)) 20:18:51 Yeah, just did that. 20:19:09 Something's wrong with the body form, though. 20:19:26 And I think I'd like parallel expansions for the degenerate case of no specs. 20:19:26 isn't there a quote in some lisp book somewhere about once-only and how hard it is to get right? 20:19:46 PAIP, probably. The SBCL source quotes chapter and verse. 20:20:49 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:22:03 segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1AC90.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:04 i would not say hard, but "unobvious", definitely 20:22:17 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1F3C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:47 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 20:22:50 Okay, I'm going to go with ,(progn ,@body). 20:22:53 i thought it was PAIP, but i can't seem to find my copy (or any of my books since i took the bookshelf of and have yet to rebuild it). 20:23:28 nyef: the first one is missing the innermost let 20:23:47 check out (eval `(let ((x :good)) (once-only ((x :bad) (y x)) y))) 20:24:07 -!- ivank [i=ivan@93-97-51-193.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:24:18 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:24:59 you need ,(let ...bindings for names->gensyms... ,@body) 20:25:27 nyef annotated #81239 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81239#1 20:25:50 Hey guys, how can I change TAB to use spaces instead of tabs for indentation in lisp-mode (or if possible: in every mode)? 20:25:55 Are you sure? 20:26:54 Joreji: set indent-tabs-mode to nil 20:26:58 Joreji: I bet that's an #emacs question. Or an emacs-wiki question. Or an apropos "indent-tabs-mode" question. 20:27:04 nyef: using the first definition in that paste, yes 20:27:30 Ah, nyef you're right. Sorry wrong channel :/ 20:27:36 it's really quite obnoxious that emacs uses tabs by default though. :) 20:27:38 fe[nl]ix: Thanks :) 20:27:46 nyef annotated #81239 "current version" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81239#2 20:27:54 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 20:28:25 I -think- these are correct now. 20:30:03 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-188-164.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:31:05 Hrm... No, I'm confused again. 20:31:09 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 20:32:06 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 20:32:42 I'm going to take a break and come back to this. 20:32:45 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:33:04 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:38:28 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:40:45 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [""I learned to code the hard way. The way the man who learnt the vibrator was infact an electric pencil sharpener." -- Manic"] 20:41:29 -!- rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 20:42:09 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:54 nyef: replace the (GENSYM "ONCE-ONLY") with (gensym ,(string name)) and (GENSYM (SYMBOL-NAME NAME)) with (GENSYM "ONCE-ONLY"), maybe? 20:43:00 just for clarity, that is 20:43:15 That might be what I did wrong. 20:43:42 I'll think it through later. 20:43:51 and the PROGN with LOCALLY, so declarations can be used 20:45:07 Would making someone else's package asdf-installable be considered inpolite? 20:48:01 People still use asdf-install? 20:48:01 email is free, so you can always ask 20:48:37 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.32.160] has joined #lisp 20:49:27 nyef: I recently switched from wget to asdf-install. What do you use? 20:49:34 Have we found our buzzwords? "Metamodel Oriented Programming" http://www.infoq.com/articles/mop 20:50:16 meingbg: Few enough packages that pulling from source control by hand isn't a bother. 20:50:29 (Specifically, SBCL, CLX and SLIME.) 20:50:36 meingbg: i use clbuild 20:50:46 ah, now i se how it goes -- why you have just two lets, my inner and outer are rolled both into your outer 20:51:05 clbuild 20:52:51 Right, my once-only is a bit of a hybrid of my once-only* and the more typical once-only that was an annotation on paste 50355. 20:57:28 tombom_ [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 20:57:52 adu [n=ajr@pool-173-79-52-2.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:21 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:58:21 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:08 -!- jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:00:25 jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has joined #lisp 21:01:06 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [Success] 21:02:31 I'm looking at a elephant-devel messge from 2006 comparing rucksack to elephant. What has happened with rucksack since then? 21:05:35 nikodemus: http://sbcl.boinkor.net/boinkmarks/index#PUZZLE;SBCL,(:ARCH%20:X86_64%20:FEATURES%20NIL),baker/1.0.28 <- permalinks (-: 21:08:41 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:46 huzzah! 21:09:45 i had to hit reload to get the {this may take a while} note, and loading of the graphs. dunno if i had an old session that was confusing the issue, though 21:11:07 http://sbcl.boinkor.net/boinkmarks/index#DEFLATE-FILE;SBCL,(:ARCH%20:EMULATED-X86%20:FEATURES%20(:SB-THREAD)),baker/1.0.28 21:11:12 -!- bmp [n=bmp@66.237.165.254.ptr.us.xo.net] has left #lisp 21:11:16 coolness indeed. thanks! 21:11:45 -!- adu [n=ajr@pool-173-79-52-2.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 21:12:08 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-88.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:12:48 cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 21:13:10 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:13:21 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-88.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 21:14:13 Xbvhd 21:14:20 sorry 21:14:25 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:14:26 -!- tombom_ is now known as tombom 21:15:24 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 21:15:27 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 21:15:43 vieq [n=vieq@metabug/vieq] has joined #lisp 21:17:22 meingbg: quite a bit, but the basics haven't changed much. 21:18:45 drewc: Is it stable enough for actually using, not just playing with? 21:19:10 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:00 adu [n=ajr@pool-173-79-52-2.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:01 -!- vieq [n=vieq@metabug/vieq] has left #lisp 21:21:28 meingbg: i've found it to be quite stable, and have not had issues. I suggest you test _any_ solution before using it to make sure it meets your needs, but rucksack has met mine. 21:22:18 drewc: ok 21:23:29 -!- chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-094-216-086-187.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:23:46 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:23:46 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:26:20 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:20 -!- rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:28:00 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:00 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:28:10 -!- rubendv [n=rubendv@dD5774DAF.access.telenet.be] has left #lisp 21:29:41 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-47.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 21:30:04 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-4-34-230.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:21 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-4-34-230.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:31:24 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:32:13 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:01 nyef annotated #81239 "latest versions (building now)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81239#3 21:34:44 Is there some way of getting additional information on an error than just the error string when using handler-bind? Or is there a different facility that provides a means? I'm particularly interested in a call stack. 21:35:09 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 21:36:14 Backtraces are implementation-specific, but you might find SBCLs backtrace-as-list to be of use. 21:36:57 Hmm, wasn't there some syntax to only execute a command on a particular system? 21:37:06 *Joreji* forgot 21:37:11 Note that you'd be SOL if you'd used handler-case, as it unwinds before running the handler. 21:37:18 You looking for #+sbcl ? 21:37:24 nyef: Yes, thanks! 21:37:29 What is SOL? 21:37:44 Something Outta Luck. 21:37:49 Ah ok. 21:37:56 I'll let your imagination fill in the Something. 21:38:02 structured? 21:38:03 :) 21:38:04 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f5430.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:38:41 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:39:32 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:35 hefner: http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=users/abridgewater/clx.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/glx-fixes if you're interested. 21:41:11 ah, cool. writing quake 5? 21:41:24 amop: compute-applicable-methods-using-classes 21:41:32 hmph 21:41:39 Not likely, but I'd like to get -some- sort of gaming thing going. 21:41:46 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 21:41:58 *hefner* lears the hard way how many goofy things cffi depends on 21:42:25 (3? 4? =p) 21:42:34 Heh. And some people say I should use cffi. 21:44:08 *hefner* succeeds in hacking clbuild to install his unreleased rubbish for someone else 21:44:43 mkdir ~/.sbcl; ln -s ~/clbuilds/systems ~/.sbcl/ # is a cute thing way to do things. 21:44:47 I would have thought that lisp, at least under contemporary implementations, isn't high performance enough for serious realtime 3D 21:45:23 Contemporary 1970s, maybe. 21:45:29 "serious realtime 3D" is all handled by video card drivers nowadays anyway 21:45:58 Ralith: sbcl comes close to gcc, and since you can do symbolic computations easier than in C, you have the potential to write much more efficient algorithms. 21:46:00 hefner: why not deliver it as an executable? 21:46:54 well, I won't pretend I'm experienced enough to form an informed opinion on this 21:47:14 so I'll leave it at that I'd be really excited to see someone do "some sort of gaming thing" 21:47:34 If you want "some sort of gaming thing", check out dto's roguelike stuff. 21:47:57 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-4-34-230.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:04 well, some sort of realtime 3D gaming thing that doesn't look like it's from the 90s 21:48:13 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-4-34-230.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:48:17 What's the matter with the 90s? 21:48:22 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@166.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:48:24 still, roguelike is cool too; got a link or a google term? 21:48:28 -!- adu [n=ajr@pool-173-79-52-2.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 21:48:33 the 90s didn't have nearly enough eyecandy. 21:48:40 parolang` [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:01 the 90s had great eye candy until this 3D nonsense caught on. 21:49:02 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:49:09 this is interesting: http://xach.livejournal.com/217567.html 21:49:23 i wish we were still in the 90s so i could have my 3d unix filesystem 21:49:53 nikodemus: mostly I'm too foolish/stubborn to back down from having written the thing as a 500 line shebang script, and also because I imagine a couple rounds of iteration with updated copies of the source 21:50:00 interesting, but only server-side. 21:50:25 and only part of it, at that. 21:50:32 (a shebang script which in practice I run with a shell script wrapper anyway, because I'm a moron) 21:50:55 the reasons I do things seldom make much sense, it seems. 21:50:58 hefner: deliver everything _but_ the script as an executable? 21:51:12 cp2: that program's still around 21:51:18 it's kinda fun but not very practical 21:51:29 you do know that #!/path/to/sbcl --script is now supported, I assume? 21:51:32 oh, i didnt even know it existed 21:51:43 it does 21:51:44 i was referring to hackers/jurassic park 21:51:44 heh 21:51:47 that was a real program 21:51:51 hot damn 21:51:54 can't quite remember the name but it should be easy to google up 21:51:57 erig [n=erig@gw0.brightech.com] has joined #lisp 21:52:06 xcruiser perhaps? 21:52:10 no 21:52:19 FSN 21:52:23 yeah 21:52:25 found tha ttoo 21:52:58 http://fsv.sourceforge.net/ 21:53:57 ^ contemporary linux-compatible one 21:55:04 amoc [n=amoc@124.49.51.183] has joined #lisp 21:55:28 jao` [n=jao@161.Red-79-155-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:55 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:58:00 -!- jao [n=jao@240.Red-83-38-59.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:58:56 oh man 21:58:59 this is awesome 21:59:53 nikodemus: I thought about too, but there's an asdf system aside from the script, and it's easier just to get a proper lisp environment if clbuild will do all the work (and it almost does, except for sbcl and asdf needing to be set up properly for #!/usr/local/bin/sbcl to be useful) 21:59:57 nyef: so what's this roguelike stuff? 22:01:39 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-129-98.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:01:41 you referring to langband? That seems dead... 22:01:50 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6CE96.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 22:02:18 nyef probably ment this: http://dto.github.com/notebook/rlx.html 22:03:23 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@206.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:04:18 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:07:00 Yeah, that's the one. 22:07:55 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:08:43 aww, it's not text based 22:08:48 not a proper roguelike. 22:11:42 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 22:13:27 Feel free to write your own. 22:13:36 actually, his work looks pretty cool 22:13:55 The space battle thing is fun 22:14:07 but not as impressive as something comparable to recent popular titles 22:14:14 Jarvellis: hm? 22:14:19 -!- jao` [n=jao@161.Red-79-155-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:14:28 Ralith: one of the games for rlx 22:14:32 ah. 22:15:12 jao [n=jao@227.Red-83-37-137.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:13 Actually all the ones i've tried are fun, but that's my favourite *pow* *splat* 22:15:20 *Jarvellis* may be excesively violent 22:15:33 nothing wrong with some good, healthy violence 22:15:51 Well, it's all directed towards non-existant people 22:16:04 And they don't get to vote, so morally it's fine 22:17:06 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:17:12 -!- xan [n=xan@174.Red-79-150-43.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:17:21 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 22:19:26 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:19:32 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-4-43-23.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:45 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-4-43-23.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:19:55 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read 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#lisp 23:43:32 memnon [n=user@e178207052.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:44:39 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.169.99] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:44:46 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-212-195-3.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:48 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 23:45:00 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-212-195-3.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:46:00 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:49:45 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:53:19 kidd [n=kidd@82.Red-79-150-114.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:31 hah. to rotate, it increments the angle by two degrees every frame. after a few minutes, the floating point angle grows so large that the two degrees get rounded away and it stops spinning. 23:56:37 -!- amoc [n=amoc@124.49.51.183] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:57:10 hefner: There is a rumor around that some missile system during WW2 stopped working because of a floating point timer that didn't last the war. 23:57:53 *meingbg* wonders why anybody would ever use a floating point timer... 23:58:21 hefner: haha! 23:58:34 meingbg: er, wasn't WW2 before floating point timers? 23:59:04 ww2 was before computers that guided missile systems (: 23:59:14 Ralith: As I said, just a rumor. 23:59:26 not a very good one. 23:59:30 I'm very sceptic. 23:59:37 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-65-55.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Connection timed out]