00:00:37 -!- merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:01:22 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:01:45 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:06:00 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B316D20.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:06:06 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 00:08:57 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@123.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:10:21 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 00:11:09 dys [n=andreas@p5B316D20.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:08 nyef: BTW, you mentioned using mplayer as music player - I recommend combination of mplayer and ZSH, with few changes in WORDCHARS from standard 00:14:35 probably one can make it even better with some aliases, but so far I haven't used them :) 00:17:08 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:19 i remember making some zsh thingy way back that let me write "% play somesong" with tab completion on 'somesong', and that recursively searched my entire music library :) 00:18:16 I found that when you don't have any normalized structure in your media files, like me, modded WORDCHARS is necessary :-) 00:18:36 Having C-w go cut text in proper way makes for much nicer navigation 00:19:08 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.244.206] has joined #lisp 00:19:11 i've pretty much forgotten all i ever knew about zsh/bash programming :/ 00:20:24 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-173-76-163-72.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:22:23 there is even scsh, but I've not looked much into it yet :) 00:22:42 scsh is still not updated, so it doesn't work on 64bit machines 00:22:56 it's designed for scripting, not interactive usage, though 00:23:03 no proper 64-32 mode on your OS? 00:23:05 and for scripting, it's very nice 00:23:13 phadthai: I prefer to avoid 32bit apps 00:23:53 also, compiling stuff for 32bits on amd64 linux is PITA 00:24:11 p_l: WFM. 00:24:17 pkhuong: WFM? 00:24:43 works for me. 00:24:47 haha 00:25:46 well, my Arch64 is rather 64bit-pure when it comes to design. Multilib still wasn't really cracked by distros, last time I checked (Solaris somehow got it right) 00:27:13 Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.143.101.170] has joined #lisp 00:30:36 -!- Corun is now known as Corun|away 00:30:48 -!- Corun|away is now known as Corun 00:31:54 FWIW, I compile 32-bit SBCL on 64-bit linux on a semi-irregular basis. I just add a -m32 in a couple places and set SBCL_ARCH=x86 and it Just Works. 00:33:05 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["leaving"] 00:33:16 nyef: SBCL has it a little easier by virtue of being rather dissociated from the rest of the world ;-) 00:33:23 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 00:33:26 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit [Client Quit] 00:34:17 amblerc [n=user@24-180-81-97.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:36:55 Still have to build the runtime, plus use the groveller. 00:37:26 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:38:49 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:39:11 saikat_ [n=saikat@72-254-108-171.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:57 -!- amblerc [n=user@24-180-81-97.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 00:44:38 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:08 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:18 -!- Corun is now known as Corun|away 00:48:27 amblerc [n=user@24-180-81-97.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:50:48 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 00:50:57 -!- Corun|away is now known as Corun 00:52:49 -!- Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.143.101.170] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:52:56 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:58:00 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 01:07:49 If I have two classes A and B, where B inherits from A and both A and B define a shared slot which only has an accessor defined in A. If I call the accessor, which value will I get? The one of A or the one of B? 01:08:25 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:10:45 lnostdal pasted "accessors, slots and inheritance" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81060 01:11:55 dagnachew_ [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:13:41 lnostdal: Ah, okey thanks! 01:19:22 Joreji: there is only one slot! 01:21:23 -!- dagnachew_ [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:21:23 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:22:16 There is only one slot. 01:22:20 (Should there be two slots, the answer is A.) 01:22:23 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:22:24 ... I think. 01:22:28 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:22:30 Damned hotel internet session timeouts. :-/ 01:22:30 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@72-254-108-171.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:23:17 saikat_ [n=saikat@72-254-108-171.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:31 nyef: Sometimes I just use my aircard if the wifi is repeatedly flakyl 01:24:22 Don't have one. 01:24:44 On the upside, if I did have one, it'd be on one of the two networks that actually -work- around here. 01:26:46 pjb, nyef: Yeah I know. I got doubts though as the SBCL inspector showed me two exact same slot names with different values. Turned out my macro didn't intern the slot names upon definition though. 01:27:20 Ah, in that case the answer is A, as they are different slot names. 01:28:20 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-c9053bef3f75da90] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:28:28 I'm getting a strange error "A possible binding of #:LOOP-LIST-15 is a (VALUES VECTOR &OPTIONAL), not a LIST." in this line: "loop for location in (sort entity-list #'< :key #'health)" - anyone knows whats up? 01:28:58 entity-list could be a ctor. 01:29:05 ve+ 01:29:13 Joreji: is that an *error*? 01:29:29 are you sure entity-list is a list? 01:29:35 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 01:29:41 pkhuong: I'm not sure, at least sbcl doesn't compile with it. 01:29:42 Yeah, that feels like it'd be more a warning of some stripe, as the error would occur at runtime. 01:30:13 entity-list should be a list, yeah. 01:30:14 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@72-254-108-171.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:30:17 why do you mean by "doesn't compile with it"? 01:30:38 "Compilation failed: 0 errors 1 warning 0 notes [0.18 secs]" 01:31:16 so, what does "it" refer to in your previous sentence? 01:31:22 saikat_ [n=saikat@72-254-108-171.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:46 The line which contains the (sort ...) statement. 01:32:05 Could that be becauso of (declaim (optimize (speed 0) (space 0) (debug 3) (safety 3))) ? 01:32:11 because* 01:32:37 You declaimed debug to -three-? 01:32:59 put: (declaim (optimize (speed 0) (space 0) (debug 3) (safety 3))) in 01:33:00 your ~/.sbclrc 01:33:00 01:33:16 nyef: Yeah. 01:33:17 Ah. 01:33:25 It could be because you used some vector-specific operation on entity-list, I'd guess. 01:33:34 *nyef* shudders at the thought of debug higher than 2. 01:34:08 Why? 01:34:28 envi_home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 01:35:31 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:36:01 entity-list is a for keyword which is bound to elements of entities-lists. entities-lists is the result of loop "collect"'ing some elements. 01:36:42 Does the loop collect keyword use vector operations? 01:36:48 can you paste the code and the exact warning message? 01:37:29 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-69-148-18-246.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:30 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@72-254-108-171.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:37:41 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.4.193] has joined #lisp 01:39:41 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:40:23 -!- peterc [n=pcaffin@emu.autons.net.au] has left #lisp 01:40:25 rtra [n=user@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 01:41:02 i have a class in which i need to initialize one of the slots depending upon the values of the other slots. i guess i can do it using a function in the initform of the required slot. is that correct? 01:41:06 also, how does this function get the values of the other slots? i tried (defun some-init-fun (s1) (do-something)) (defclass c ((slot-1 :initarg :s1) (slot-2 :initform (some-init-fun :s1)))). but this does not work. can someone please tell me what might i be doing wrong here? 01:41:16 pkhuong: http://paste.lisp.org/display/81062 01:41:55 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:41:56 is there any programming problems online judge (like http://acm.uva.es) accepting CL or Scheme submissions? 01:44:00 spradnyesh: you cannot do it with :initform. You must do it in INITIALIZE-INSTANCE. 01:44:14 -!- aleister_crowley [n=lhugbj@189-19-118-119.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit ["eject"] 01:44:37 pjb: i thought i could put in arbitrary functions in :initform, no? 01:44:53 They 01:44:54 in that case where can i see some tutorial/example for initialize-instance? 01:45:09 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-122-85.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:11 They're evaluated in the environment of the defclass, not that of the new instance. 01:45:35 hmm 01:46:36 looks like a weird interaction with high safety and low speed. 01:46:40 spradnyesh: Have you looked at either cells or computed-class? (They allow you to specify that a certain slot's value depends on another' 01:46:43 s.) 01:47:03 nopes. i'm using classes for the first time 01:47:18 Ah. 01:47:36 and i ran across this issue 01:48:42 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:48:58 spradnyesh: you know about INITIALIZE-INSTANCE right? write an augmenting method for it 01:49:28 (i'm guessing "augmenting method" is a name for :before, after and around methods; my AMOP-lingo is weak) 01:49:29 fusss: i don't know about initialize-instance. can you suggest some tutorial where i can learn it? 01:50:18 fusss: I'd expect auxiliary, as opposed to primary (method). 01:50:52 (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((obj class-name) &rest initargs &key &allow-other-keys) ..) that's the signature for writing :after methods for class CLASS-NAME. 01:51:05 i found it mentioned in practical-lisp. reading it now 01:51:11 spradnyesh: have a look at: http://paste.lisp.org/display/80612 01:51:13 thanks for the pointers, you guys 01:51:18 pkhuong: Oh well, I'll go for safety=0 then. Thanks there! 01:51:49 erh, no. (safety 1) is the default. 01:51:50 spradnyesh: I mean http://paste.lisp.org/display/69586 01:52:11 pjb: that snippet showcases lnostdal's unicode-fu, not so much clos! 01:52:12 or just speed > 0 should be enough 01:52:42 fusss: it also showcases self-ref, implemented in the second paste. 01:53:47 soemraws [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:09 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:54:31 spradnyesh: do you know the difference between the three auxiliary methods? 01:55:02 pjb: those pastes helped. although i have a question here. in the 1st paste, there are some symbols that i could not fathom. could you be so kind enough to point me to places where i could read more about them? 01:55:22 fusss: i've read about them. but never used it. so, basically, not in enough detail 01:55:49 i can annotate those pastes .. just a sec. 01:55:54 spradnyesh: you may ignore the first paste, it was just an example. 69586 is what you want. 01:56:02 pkhuong: Okey. speed it is then. 01:56:18 :before methods are called before the primary applicable method, :after methods are called after, and :around methods are called INSTEAD OF the primary applicable method. 01:56:50 fusss: i've read that much. but have never used them. so don't know if there's more (intricacies) to it ;) 01:57:22 pjb: i understand that. but i'm curious to know what those symbols are 01:57:37 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:57:55 What symbols? 01:58:46 few, not many: CALL-NEXT-METHOD is what you need to call in an auxiliary method when you need to *augment* the generic function. You don't need to call CALL-NEXT-METHOD if you need to *replace* a method in the GF. You can only call CALL-NEXT-METHOD if there is one, test with NEXT-METHOD-P. (all this is just for the standard method combination; operator method combination have only :before... 01:58:47 ...and :after, not around) 01:59:16 in the paste, lambda is shown by it's symbol (which i understood). but there's a symbol just before first-name and last-name in the lambda call. what are they? 02:00:03 They're not symbols, just characters. 02:00:27 -!- Corun is now known as Corun|away 02:00:33 i did not mean lisp symbols. i mean symbols as in graphemes. sorry for the confusion 02:00:51 How can I use &key with defgeneric & defmethod? 02:01:21 you don't specialise on non-required arguments. 02:01:33 -!- Corun|away is now known as Corun 02:01:48 spradnyesh: it's the character named CURRENCY_SIGN 02:01:53 #\CURRENCY_SIGN 02:01:56 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:01:58 http://paste.lisp.org/display/80612#3 here spradnyesh 02:02:06 pkhuong: So it's not possible? 02:02:21 fusss: that did not really help much. lemme go through the documentation. thanks for the help though :) 02:02:47 Joreji: you just do... it's very possible, and trivial. 02:03:12 Joreji: your lisp text should cover &key in function lambda lists. 02:03:18 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-251.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:03:47 oh, not sum .. that should have been "product" of course .. 4 in the morning again 02:04:13 drewc: What lisp text :?o 02:04:21 lnostdal: thanks. and i realised that that should've been product and not sum ;) thanks again 02:04:28 Joreji: the one you are using to learn lisp with. 02:04:37 minion: tell Joreji about pcl 02:04:38 Joreji: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 02:05:15 Yeah, I know how keyword arguments work with normal functions, but not how I can get there with methods. 02:05:17 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 02:05:55 ok. based on pjb's and lnostdal's pastes, i have a doubt. earlier someone said that i couuld not use arbitrary functions in initform, but should use initialize-instance instead. whereas the pastes do use arbitrary (unless i miss the pattern here) functions. am i overlooking something? 02:06:02 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@208-45-247-237.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:14 spradnyesh: Yes, you're overlooking the use of INITIALIZE-INSTANCE by the class SELF-REF. 02:08:03 EdSolo [n=ed@65.50.0.4] has joined #lisp 02:08:11 pjb: yes. that's it 02:08:15 thanks! 02:09:02 fusss pasted "initialize-instance specialization" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81063 02:09:20 pjb: but that initialize-instance just adds the current object to the list. it has nothing to do with the initialization of the 'sum slot 02:09:37 It has a lot to do with it. 02:09:51 Notice how the initform calls (self) What's the definition of the function named SELF? 02:11:05 also note how the INITIALIZE-INSTANCE method is an :AROUND method 02:11:47 yes, you can't redefine the primary initialize-instance .. at least not if you're sane and not too determined 02:11:51 ..and how it controls _when_ stuff (the :INITFORM code) is to be called by calling CALL-NEXT-METHOD .. it calls it after assigning something to the special variable *self-refs* 02:12:10 s/assigning/binding/ 02:12:16 yes, pjb 02:12:30 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:09 pjb, lnostdal: i think he is better off with the rote, usual way of hand-computing slot values from other slots. boring is good when you're learning. 02:13:22 i've forgotten why i do the (cons self-ref *self-refs*) thing in the first place .. i think i constructed some stuff in a recursive fashion and needed access to previous stuff still being constructed or something 02:13:29 ok guys, all this stuff is going a lot over my head 02:13:46 fusss: i second that ;) 02:14:06 spradnyesh: that last paste of mine, 81063 has all you will need 02:14:10 for now i'll just go with the plain initialize-instance. and try to improve as i go ahead 02:14:14 spradnyesh: so the best for now is to initialize your dependant slots in your own INITIALIZE-INSTANCE method. You can have one such method for each of your classes. 02:14:18 Yes. 02:14:22 fusss: yes. thanks 02:14:29 thanks pjb and lnostdal too! 02:15:00 :) 02:16:27 oh gosh, lisppaste integrates twitter 02:18:12 :fusss Isn't that one of the four horsemen of the Apocalypse? 02:18:57 maybe not, but you know what is? 02:18:59 fusss: Yeah, I was surprised at that, too. 02:19:23 And the short URLs for pastes was also unexpected. 02:19:37 "Granting the efficacy of our endeavor in abstraction, why study LISP? LISP is at least fifteen years old" -- John Allen, preface to Anatomy 02:19:56 Anatomy is not so old, is it? 02:20:04 I almost fell off my toilet seat when i read that 02:20:18 it IS, apparently 02:20:37 fusss: source? 02:20:38 I don't like these short urls, for #lisp. Numbers are easier to remember than meaningless strings of characters. 02:20:51 John Allen, preface to Anatomy of Lisp. 02:20:52 fusss: as in URL? :D 02:20:56 p_l: preface to Anatomy of LISP; where can I mail you my copy? 02:20:59 cadabra [n=cadabra@17.224.12.65] has joined #lisp 02:21:10 Ah, Anatomy of Lisp. I thought for a while it was about normal anatomy :D 02:21:19 pjb: The pastes are announced with numbers. It looks like the handler for the numbers just returns a redirect (probably permanent) to the normal URL. 02:21:24 p_l: hey! This is #lisp! 02:22:12 pjb: sure it is, but I'm doing psychology as part of CS degree ;-) 02:22:14 nyef: I think it's when you make the paste, in the web page returned, there's only the tweeter URI. It'd be nicer if both URI were provided. 02:22:50 pjb: the non-twitter url is in your address bar :-) 02:23:09 fusss: It isn't, you know. 02:23:30 http://paste.lisp.org/display/81063 vs http://paste.lisp.org/+1QJR 02:23:32 fusss: good to know. (I don't notice it in w3m) 02:23:56 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-21-15.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:24:19 p_l: interesting. Do you apply psychology to programming, as in "The psychology of computer programming"? 02:24:29 pjb: no, it's required for the AI part 02:24:56 Heh. #36r1QJR => 81063. 02:25:11 pjb: To be exact, my degree (assuming I won't fail) will be "BSci Computing Science and Artificial Intelligence" 02:25:12 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-21-15.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 02:25:42 p_l: what kind of project do you have to do? Implement an automatic troll or a flamer? (following Eliza and what was the name of the patient again?) 02:25:57 Yeah, I was surprised when I started reading piles of recentish AI/cogsci papers how much they seemed like psychology papers. 02:26:13 pjb: haha. Not yet, but I was thinking of making AI-powered personal assistant 02:26:27 nyef: It's because at cognitive level, it's nearly the same thing :) 02:26:45 p_l: have a look at http://www.amazon.com/Consciousness-Explained-Daniel-C-Dennett/dp/0316180661/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1243650391&sr=8-1 02:26:58 pjb: Had him on exam today 02:27:07 Great! 02:27:46 Dennet is the one behind multiple drafts theory 02:27:49 anfairch` [n=user@c-24-16-32-126.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:31 nyef: nice trick there! will use higher bases for random strings now! good bye md5! :-P 02:28:41 orrrr, maybe not 02:29:11 Also means that the URL component was likely generated with ~36R. 02:29:13 pjb: So while we haven't gone in depth into that (yet, I'm still on "Introductory Psychology 2"), his works will certainly appear later 02:29:29 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:15 kmcorbett [n=Keith@12.232.60.2] has joined #lisp 02:34:46 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@12.232.60.2] has left #lisp 02:37:33 rich_holygoat [n=rnewman@76-220-42-147.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:08 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E463DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:39:36 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:39:41 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:16 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:40:34 -!- soemraws [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:41:59 -!- amblerc [n=user@24-180-81-97.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 02:42:05 -!- Joreji [n=user@42-104.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:42:53 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:29 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@60-250-32-181.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 02:49:02 fusss: BTW, will your hi-performance hunchentoot be available anywhere? :) 02:50:04 it's not "my"; write a custom taskmaster that does the incoming request dispatching with something other than loop polling or forking a thread 02:50:24 lukego [n=lukegorr@60-250-32-181.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:28 i will be giving a presentation on Sunday in washington d.c. to the local hacker-types 02:51:06 and it's not exactly a general web server; it's optimized for serving banner ads; hardly anything standard 02:51:11 -!- rich_holygoat [n=rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [] 02:51:23 but yeah, when i'm going less crazy and i have a clue, a write up is in order :-) 02:52:12 fusss: yeah, but it might be useful for others, at least in terms of "what can we do to optimize our app" :) 02:52:29 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:53:07 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:18 yeah. there are many things actually. bypass the gray streams; don't fork threads unnecessarily; a uni-process thread dispatcher is faster than one-thread-per-request. 02:54:07 choose an upper-limit for how many requests you wanna handle per second and write object pools for the major hunchentoot objects; REQUEST, REPLY, SESSION, etc. 02:54:38 if you're handling large data, remove any regexes from the *dispatch-table* and try to do it straightfowardly, say, with a hash-table 02:54:50 hunchentoot stops being hunchentoot after a few of those changes, btw 02:55:12 -!- Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:55:22 you will end up using it just for the server response constants, mime-types and other trivialities :-P but I didn't go that far, or stay there 02:56:31 had to stop the performance tweaks after i realized I could serve 50% of my entire potential market, over 2 hours, on a $19.95/mo VPS :-) 02:58:38 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:59:36 :D 03:00:08 I wonder how it might work with threadpool 03:01:31 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:02:04 if you're planning for a high-traffic website with limited visitors per day; count your days as 12 hours, not 24, as funny things will happen. 03:06:21 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:09:26 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:09:54 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 03:14:17 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 03:14:53 fusss: where is this presentation? 03:15:32 Ireland's Four Courts, in Clarendon 03:15:39 right where Dr. Dremo's used to be 03:15:49 I was planning on showing up. 03:15:58 you better! :-) 03:16:38 8PM, 7:30 gets you a free hand-made name tag 03:16:45 do you guys know of a project that uses closure-html? It's pretty complex to grasp, and I'd love to see it in work and get started quickly 03:16:46 Nice. 03:17:07 konr: parsing html? 03:17:15 fusss: yes 03:17:42 konr: a published project? or would a personal hack do? 03:17:58 fusss: haha, surely it would do! 03:18:18 illuminati1113: it's gonna be a bunch of RoR and Python people I reckon; represent! 03:18:53 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:19:05 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-226-31-221.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:25 I'll try. 03:19:28 konr: as a bonus, it has unicode stuff that processes input from Windows-1256 arab to utf-8 03:20:48 fusss pasted "this from a file named "foo.lisp"" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81068 03:21:46 fusss: Thanks a lot! I'm writing a bot, and got a little stuck with chtml's complexity! 03:21:54 html parsing, don't want >_> 03:23:39 lhtml-builder thing is the most straightforward; it gives you html in sexp. phtml-builder was fast and funky. haven't tried sax or anything more sophisticated than that 03:23:44 milanj- [n=milan@93.87.193.246] has joined #lisp 03:26:10 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-34-14.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["« La POO c'est bien beau, mais en C au moins on va droit au but. »"] 03:27:04 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 03:28:07 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@17.224.12.65] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:29:31 Orest_ [n=orest@p4FC4512C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:44 http://paste.lisp.org/+1QJX .. i keep forgetting where closures "come from" .. maybe this is a dumb solution .. heh 03:30:26 oh, and i forget to lock the 2nd hash-table 03:34:09 fusss: but closure-html will parse broken html. 03:35:53 pkhuong: see above: html-parsing, not for me. I had a golf-ball sized "drop" of tear roll down my cheek, leap off my chin and bounce off of my lap just trying to parse one Frontpage generated page 03:36:51 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@60-250-32-181.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:37:29 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has joined #lisp 03:37:42 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.202.174] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:39:59 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has quit [Client Quit] 03:40:05 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:40:28 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has joined #lisp 03:41:03 anyone know of a good FOSS chat-widget thingy I could use? ajax or flash or whatever 03:41:10 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-226-31-221.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:41:16 schwinn434_ [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has joined #lisp 03:41:21 fusss: is there a significance to using :use ::foo-pkg? 03:41:21 sorta "contact sales" button you see on LivePerson enabled websites 03:41:39 -!- schwinn434_ [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:41:39 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:41:51 sykopomp: it's a bug, of course 03:42:07 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has joined #lisp 03:42:35 i find types in my code the first time i try to LOAD it. usually i just evaluate things in a buffer until they work, and I use them once. 03:42:35 mk 03:42:46 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:42:51 typos, you mean? ;) 03:42:54 that paste also has calls to cl-html-parse function 03:43:13 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:43:47 oh my, yes of course: one hopes to have /some/ types in his code (void where prohibited, not available in Hawai, Puerto Rico, Alaska or the untyped lambda calculus) 03:44:42 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:45:14 fusss: only ONE of those 4 is 80% white. Guess which one. 03:45:49 Kansas? 03:46:01 Puerto Rico 03:46:23 heh 03:46:37 with alaska at a close second, at 75% white 03:46:53 *sykopomp* thinks that's the most hilarious demographic fact ever. 03:47:27 thanks sykopomp, I didn't know you were a closet census fan. I'm more into labor statistics. 03:49:06 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:29 -!- Orest- [n=orest@p4FC44A59.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 03:50:04 Clearly the untyped lambda calculus isn't 80% white. White in this instance is a type. 03:51:13 nyef: so untyped lambda calc would be the fairest of them all, providing equal treatment to all types of people? 03:51:15 the untyped lambda calculus: the sexy mulatto child of formalisms 03:52:28 And, with that flamebait out of the way, I think it's time I sign off for the evening. 03:52:33 -!- nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 03:52:44 *fusss* was pissed off to see Allen reconstruct Lisp starting with the natural numbers and succ operator in "Anatomy"; was hopping for Quinnec-like treated beef and single-malk code goodness. 03:53:10 s/malk/malt/ 03:53:25 and I too should take my typo-prone self home. cheers! 03:53:28 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-122-85.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 03:54:01 -!- tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@unaffiliated/tc-rucho] has left #lisp 04:03:07 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit ["Yow! Legally-imposed CULTURE-reduction is CABBAGE-BRAINED!"] 04:04:18 A C++ programmer is arguing that C++ templates are far superior to lisp macros 04:04:48 -!- frobar [n=ulf@h-85-24-219-170.NA.cust.bahnhof.se] has quit ["leaving"] 04:04:53 Quadrescence: lobotomy is acceptabe SOP 04:05:37 CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.110.199] has joined #lisp 04:07:00 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-226-31-221.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:59 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-226-31-221.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:09:39 minion: memo for Xach: silly planet lisp idea: have the authors' sparklines show non-lisp (category filtered out) posts, distinctly, so as to distinguish no-activity from nonlisp-activity 04:09:40 Remembered. I'll tell Xach when he/she/it next speaks. 04:11:39 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:13:34 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:58 -!- mgr [n=mgr@213.239.218.99] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:19:09 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-a672ca9cf05242ad] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:19:55 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.4.193] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:20:52 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-226-29-122.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:55 DarkRavin_ [n=thedarkr@adsl-226-29-122.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:37 -!- DarkRavin_ [n=thedarkr@adsl-226-29-122.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:32:47 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-226-29-122.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:33:05 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-226-29-122.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:48 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-226-29-122.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:41:21 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:43:12 sorry, i just started CL with PCL and i'm having a little problem with slime. I was editing on the *inferior-lisp* buffer and lost the possibility of eval'ing with RET. I've already erased everything up to the prompt, but it still doesn't work 04:44:17 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 04:46:19 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-226-19-156.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:29 ok, working now. seems like i had a debugger buffer forgotten 04:46:42 :O) 04:47:08 boo! my kmp search routine doesn't seem to work anymore. my magic always fades if left neglected for a couple years. 04:53:50 rich_holygoat [n=rnewman@76-220-42-147.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:58 don't negelect it for years then.. 05:03:08 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:03:14 thanks for that advice. 05:03:27 -!- jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:03:45 jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has joined #lisp 05:04:27 soemraws [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:43 -!- EdSolo [n=ed@65.50.0.4] has quit [] 05:04:56 -!- rich_holygoat [n=rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [] 05:05:11 -!- soemraws [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 05:07:26 coderdad [n=coderdad@72.200.214.240] has joined #lisp 05:10:48 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@208-45-247-237.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [] 05:20:43 rich_holygoat [n=rnewman@76-220-42-147.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:58 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@72.200.214.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:29:17 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:32:15 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:33:07 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-226-19-156.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:33:42 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.38.189] has joined #lisp 05:38:01 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@123.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 05:38:28 -!- jmbr_ is now known as jmbr 05:38:38 -!- rtra [n=user@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:41:58 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-4-43-193.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:49 -!- rich_holygoat [n=rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [] 05:45:38 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 05:49:03 saikat_ [n=saikat@72-254-108-171.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:43 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@70-100-231-82.dr04.glvv.ny.frontiernet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:58:21 Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:01 Hey guys 06:00:20 I'm relatively new to lisp and doing some tutorials... 06:00:45 I'm trying the clim primer using mcclim and sbcl 06:01:17 and one of the excercises is to change some of the code while the application is running 06:01:21 How can I do that? 06:01:38 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:01:55 change the code, recompile 06:02:10 if your sbcl is compiled with threads, that should work as if by magic. you'll be able to recompile definitions even if the repl is seemingly tied up running the app. 06:02:26 Right, but the SBCL repl waits for the window to close... 06:02:48 well, why are you modifying code from the repl instead of an editor buffer? =p 06:02:58 Only after I close the window, does it execute the newly written code. but sbcl is compiled with threads 06:03:06 Eh.. I'm using limp (vim) 06:03:10 *Sikander* ducks 06:03:13 oh, dear. 06:03:21 okay, I have a solution for that too. 06:03:46 run the app in its own thread, using (clim-sys:make-thread (lambda () (run-frame-top-level ...))) 06:04:03 thanks hefner 06:04:27 is that the standard way to do these things? i've been reading quite a lot on how you can change the code while the app is running... 06:05:13 or do i need to use emacs with slime to do it properly? 06:05:39 I think it's a standard approach. I usually hack a :new-process keyword into the function I use to run my app to do it for me, though. 06:06:13 although not every time, because slime still mostly works when the repl is tied up. 06:08:22 probably not the best place to ask, but how would that work then? doesn't slime just send stuff to the repl? 06:08:36 ocnzhao [n=hgsghrnj@122.159.58.76] has joined #lisp 06:08:55 no, it talks connects to lisp over a socket services from its own thread. 06:09:07 ah... 06:09:21 (or using serve-event magic if you don't have threads, I guess) 06:09:28 so... it's worth using emacs/slime instead of vim/limp then... 06:09:39 dunno, never used limp. 06:09:50 you use slime, I guess? 06:10:29 yep 06:11:03 okay, thanks for the help 06:11:42 bob_f_ [n=bob@mail.phgroup.com] has joined #lisp 06:12:08 i don't know how people restart their programs all the time to make changes, I'm slow enough as it is with lisp 06:12:29 Sikander: also, my standard advice is to load mcclim-freetype and, perhaps, do (climi::use-pixie), to make things look a little nicer 06:13:28 dys` [n=andreas@p5B3144E6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:02 I already have mcclim-freetype; (climi::use-pixie) or (clim::use-pixie)? Neither works... 06:16:59 xomas [n=onlyou@unaffiliated/xomas] has joined #lisp 06:18:37 climi. I guess you're using the last released version. That's probably only in the CVS version. It's just a shortcut for something like (setf *default-frame-manager* (make-instance 'climi::pixie-clx-look :port (find-port))) 06:19:17 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B316D20.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:20:08 ah, I just did asdf-install; I'll get the cvs version 06:20:22 thanks for the tips 06:20:43 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-4-43-193.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:23:47 -!- loxs [n=loxs@77.85.234.205] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:24:39 loxs [n=loxs@77.85.234.205] has joined #lisp 06:24:43 -!- loxs [n=loxs@77.85.234.205] has quit [Client Quit] 06:25:22 -!- ocnzhao [n=hgsghrnj@122.159.58.76] has left #lisp 06:25:38 -!- bob_f [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:28:05 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 06:28:18 hello 06:30:20 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-122-85.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:29 ahhh 06:31:41 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:32:50 why is the top level printing 318483 spaces to my stream to pretty print the debug options? 06:33:03 Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:59 Orest- [n=orest@p4FC47B7C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:24 hefner: hmm... interesting, (climi::use-pixie) runs fine, but when I run-frame-top-level, I briefly see something and then X crashes... 06:34:41 Sikander: the whole of X? 06:35:02 wow 06:35:02 hefner: back to the console 06:35:16 hefner: so yes, the whole of X 06:35:28 sbcl kept running though, 100% CPU time 06:37:52 dunno, my xorg log dumps a backtrace, followed by a fatal server error: caught signal 11 06:38:26 it might just be the crappy intel exa drivers 06:41:16 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-192-99.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:20 all rewriting old code does is introduce new bugs 06:47:24 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-32.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:54:56 -!- Orest_ [n=orest@p4FC4512C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:55:54 jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:57:26 Sikander: that.. sucks. mcclim has been crashing my X server lately too (particularly when enabling pixie..), but I figured it was a bug in the nvidia binary drivers. 06:57:52 Anni [n=Anni@97-125-130-117.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:11 -!- Anni [n=Anni@97-125-130-117.desm.qwest.net] has left #lisp 06:58:23 hefner: interesting, I'll switch to my nvidia card later to try, but it definately doesn't work on intel 06:58:39 does it work with nv or nouveau? 06:58:54 I haven't tried. 06:59:05 it works with the new binary drivers? 06:59:31 I only noticed this a week or so ago, and haven't been in a real hurry to look for solutions (figuring that these things usually fix themselves, when new versions of software come along) 07:00:11 yeah, you're right... for now I just won't use pixie, but will keep the option in mind. If I saw correctly before the crash, it uses GTK, right? 07:00:12 no, I started noticing this with the latest binary drivers (latest as of a few weeks ago, anyway - Linux-x86_64-180.51) 07:00:31 d'oh! So much for new drivers... 07:01:18 hefner: nice, the (clim-sys:make-process ...) works, thanks 07:02:03 Pixie is just a different skin on the basic CLX backend. The only reason I can think it behaves differently is because it uses a little pixmap for the arrow on the scroll bar instead of drawing it as a polygon, and I loosely associate pixmaps with X crashing. 07:02:22 (another pixmap-heavy app of mine crashes X even without using pixie, although not immediately) 07:02:44 ah... 07:03:11 good to know, that when I get random X crashes (it's back to the good old days), it might have something to do with that 07:03:25 anyway, X sucks, keith packard is the antichrist, and everything old is new again. 07:03:34 i wrote an airplane game in the cmucl clx thing. drew that sprite in the X builtin pixmap editor and fun times were had by all. 07:03:51 i still don't know why it was monochrome though 07:04:10 hefner: done any Motif? 07:04:34 no, I've managed to avoid that. 07:05:21 it was .. pain 07:06:11 I'm taking my time learning mcclim now, but skipping ahead, is it possible to use a pane that uses opengl? 07:06:17 it was inviting at first, having come from Windows and seeing a whole OS that wasn't tied together with the GUI. but Xt, Xlib, Xm, and the huge structures, the partial, ill-defined types and other BS makes it hell 07:06:26 I don't need to know NOW how to do it, but I'd like to know if it is possible 07:06:53 Sikander: *theoretically*, but in practice there's a bunch of issues and no one has really done it. 07:06:56 cl-opengl gives you the whole full-screen as a pane; zero configuration required ;-) 07:07:05 ah 07:07:27 really, cl-opengl doesn't give you anything except the opportunity to supply your own pane. 07:07:38 I sort of hoped to eventually write some thing where I have a 3d view representing some data, while having some other widgets on the side 07:07:55 stick to lispbuilder and you will win. lispbuilder-sdl is well done; 2d graphics, audio, mouse, keyboard, joystick, and it can draw to cl-opengl graphic contexts. 07:08:06 bleh 07:08:35 wait, will lispbuilder also give me normal widgets for a gui? 07:08:47 no, have fun drawing them yourself. 07:08:52 the bleh tells me you know something i don't. i'm intrigued: have you encountered any lispbuilder suckage, hefner ? 07:08:52 D'oh! 07:09:10 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:09:37 Sikander: how resistent are you to FFI? you can, technically, get a GUI with a few pages of C. 07:09:56 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-96.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 07:10:07 lambda-gtk gives you the whole of gtk in lisp, but i'm not sure about its opengl gc 07:10:12 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:10:40 there is also the tasteful and refined new CommonQt 07:10:46 fusss: are you suggesting writing the gui in C (e.g. gtk, with the opengl widget)? 07:11:15 Ok, maybe I should ask the following question. When you guys need to get some gui on a lisp program, what do you use? 07:11:16 hefner, you don't do windows at all do you? 07:11:43 Sikander: lambda-gtk, but lately, mootools ;-) 07:11:46 manic12: sort of, but i haven't done a windows GUI since 1999 or so. 07:11:54 I'm using CreateWindowEx and wglCreateContext 07:12:11 manic12: well, through what win32 FFI wrapper? 07:12:45 i'm using Franz winapi, but I could swig it myself if necessary 07:12:48 lispbuilder-win32 has that much builtin in and you can create opengl along with win32 GUI controls, but it's not complete. 07:13:36 fusss: does mootools exist for lisp? I thought it was javascript? 07:13:39 it's pretty easy to open a window and draw opengl graphics to it from lisp on any os 07:13:53 HAH! I would love to see you try swiging the win32 API :-) you're enteringa world of pain, as Walter Sobchak would say 07:14:33 i'm not going to as long as I'm on ACL 07:14:56 I don't like doing work that is unnecessary 07:15:04 manic12: you will need to write the event-loop/callbacks for those GUI widgets/controls. the win32 WndProc doesn't really lend itself to portable wrapping does it? it has the structure of poll and function of signals. 07:15:51 So is hefner the only guy here that actively uses mcclim for gui's? Is it worth learning? 07:15:57 ff:register-foreign-callable? 07:16:14 Sikander: yes 07:16:43 Sikander: LispWorks' CAPI is utterly gorgeous. 07:16:46 it's the shallow end of the pool for app developers on X 07:17:01 *hefner* dove in, hit his head 07:17:48 common graphics is probably just as good as CAPI 07:17:48 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@72-254-108-171.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:17:55 anyway, it can be fun. there aren't many alternatives that can claim to be 100% lisp down to X protocol. 07:18:28 ..great for idealistic lispers with more free time than common sense 07:18:55 shit, i might know a GUI toolkit for opengl 07:19:03 *manic12* needs some common sense 07:19:09 saikat_ [n=saikat@72-254-108-171.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:12 mirai? 07:20:06 hefner: So... you don't advise mcclim for anything but pet projects? 07:20:32 I don't think that's the right dimension to partition along. 07:20:36 Sikander: congratulations! you have been preselected to write the FFI for Clutter: http://clutter-project.org/. You might be eligible for a vacation for two to Hawaii, when you finish (and submit code + docs + MIT license to c-l.net) 07:21:46 bleh. write your own clutter. 07:21:50 ocnzhao [n=hgsghrnj@122.159.58.76] has joined #lisp 07:21:54 -!- ocnzhao [n=hgsghrnj@122.159.58.76] has left #lisp 07:21:54 ocnzhao [n=hgsghrnj@122.159.58.76] has joined #lisp 07:21:56 -!- ocnzhao [n=hgsghrnj@122.159.58.76] has left #lisp 07:22:02 ocnzhao [n=hgsghrnj@122.159.58.76] has joined #lisp 07:22:09 -!- ocnzhao [n=hgsghrnj@122.159.58.76] has left #lisp 07:22:18 fusss: Well, I've never written ffi for more than a handful of functions... 07:22:33 it's mindless tedium 07:22:43 fusss: But if you can guarantee the trip to Hawaii though... 07:22:49 heh 07:23:21 hefner: what _do_ you suggest or typically use for writing GUIs of lisp apps? 07:23:50 *Sikander* is out of Coca Cola 07:23:57 *Sikander* cries 07:24:06 I don't, I think GUIs are usually a waste of time, and assuming they aren't here, the precise answer depends on what I want to do, who I expect to use it, and how much I value my time. 07:24:34 that makes sens 07:24:36 sens 07:24:37 sense 07:24:38 there is no magic bullet or whatever 07:24:53 somewhere on the that continuum I cross over to "don't use lisp" 07:25:42 so you generally just stick to writing text-only apps in lisp and interacting with them through slime? 07:26:01 easy GUI can be had if you drop the opengl requirement, imo 07:26:01 if I (very hypothetically) wanted to write the next popular linux app, I'll use Gtk and C or something. If I were a mac user, I'd use ObjC and Cocoa. If I wanted to write a commercial windows app, I'd kill myself, or buy Lispworks. 07:26:42 sure, but who's talking about popular apps 07:26:48 *manic12* wonders why no one mentions CG 07:26:54 I want to write something that I find useful 07:27:06 I don't know what you're talking about. I all my stuff is what you'd call pet projects. 07:27:08 rich_holygoat [n=rnewman@76-220-42-147.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:18 So, McCLIM usually rules the day. 07:27:49 heheh 07:28:08 I'll probably stick to learning mcclim for now 07:28:26 opengl isn't necessary, just thought it would be cool and awesome to show off to friends 07:28:32 (I say this on the verge of likely trying to build a custom OpenGL UI, but that's just because I want it to be pretty, animated, and more difficult than necessary) 07:28:57 Sikander, what are you trying to do in opengl? 07:29:22 (and because I already prototyped bits of it in mcclim a couple years ago) 07:29:23 The opengl thing was just a question. It's not something I'm interested in now, but down the line 07:29:27 the trick to writing GUIs as FFI is have the GUI creation routine in C, but have the handlers/callbacks in Lisp 07:29:33 I would have a lisp app that visualises some data in 3d 07:29:58 and I would like to interact with the data through widgets and if possible through manipulation of the 3d object 07:30:00 Sikander, it's pretty easy 07:30:20 manic12: how, using lambda-gtk or so? 07:30:21 alright, i'm officially off 07:30:31 yes, lambda-gtk is trivial 07:30:46 same here. I'm trying to resynchronize with the daylight dwellers. 07:30:46 i'm on the windows platform but I'm sure it's not hard with a few GLX calls 07:31:11 you guys forgot LTK, HAHAHAHAHA 07:31:15 Sikander: there is LTK 07:31:20 heh 07:31:37 D'oh! 07:31:42 my sense of architectural purity makes anything that talks down a pipe unmentionable. 07:31:59 yeah hefner 07:32:03 I remember using tk when playing with tcl; I didn't like tcl... 07:33:05 hey, the website *does* say "The easy way to do Lisp GUI programming" 07:33:36 instead of "The easy way to do Lisp GUI programming, if you are willing to forego architectural purity" 07:33:46 Sikander: even though McCLIM is probably the 'correct' way to go... LTK was trivial to use 07:34:37 Ok, so as I understand, people think McCLIM to be the lispy thing to do, but when in a rush, something else is ok :) 07:34:54 Sikander: depends who "people" are 07:35:14 I would have to wash myself 7 times should you touch me with CLIM 07:35:39 I don't know what people(?) *think* here... but I don't grasp the complication of CLIM, thus I like LTk... there is probably a lot to say for using a CLIM though 07:35:40 So you can have lisper status without touching CLIM then? 07:35:41 fusss prefers theoretical non-solutions 07:35:42 :) 07:35:54 hefner: Real World (TM) 07:36:08 yes, using SDL is a very practical, real world choice. 07:36:23 drawing buttons, yay 07:36:37 we need to write an opengl backend for mcclim, then start warping the clim spec from there 07:36:44 Sikander: if you need work done, i don't mind showing you how to wrap Gtk+OpenGL and do so with 5 or some functions. not a whole lot. 07:37:13 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-71-138-130-18.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:14 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@72-254-108-171.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:37:18 hefner: when I need a GUI I reach to ui.jquery.org; nothing theoretical about it :-P 07:38:25 fusss: thanks, I'll play around with it first, though. I've used GTK and OpenGL in C several times before. I assume (since lambda-gtk is complete) that it should be possible to do the same there, so I'll just try first 07:38:43 lately I have only been half as productive as normal, dunno what is up, sux 07:39:24 write the GUI *constructing* part of your app in C; stuff the pointers to the big structs in global variables (i.e. GtkBuilder, GtkWindow, etc.) but leave the signal hadlers as externs. On the Lisp side, write FFI for the GUI constructur routine and signal-registering routine, the global variables, and write your handlers in Lisp then export them. 07:39:55 *hefner* does not trust callbacks into lisp at all 07:40:12 thanks for the tips, fusss 07:40:35 maybe not on sbcl 07:40:42 they work fine on acl 07:41:14 fusss pasted "a weekend with lambda-gtk" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81072 07:41:29 i dug through it for a few days and here is what I came up with 07:41:42 Take my opinion with a grain of salt anyway. My tendency is to hear something is broken once and continue not to trust it for the next three years. 07:42:00 seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 07:42:40 fusss: thanks 07:42:45 heh, hefner 07:43:19 Sikander: some of the text might not be english, but it should be self-explanatory 07:43:20 hefner: you seem to be a hardcore oldschool lisper 07:43:21 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-21-15.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:44:14 I hope not, I picked it up in 2002 or so. There are some very old lispers. =p 07:44:45 i started in 1997, of course I had to learn how to program too 07:44:49 i think he meant to say you're hardcore, period 07:44:52 hefner: do you have a beard? 07:45:10 stassats: I do! But it is trimmed very short. 07:45:23 that changes my whole image of you 07:45:25 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-30-191.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:45:32 well, then you are not hardcore enough indeed 07:45:40 any tats? 07:46:13 hefner: with oldschool I didn't mean age-wise, but mentality-wise 07:46:50 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-192-99.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:47:00 If I'm oldschool, the new school must suck. 07:47:19 yeah, look at newlisp 07:47:28 new school usually sucks 07:48:28 "introducing LBUG: lisp beard users groups" 07:48:36 moin all 07:48:38 I used "oldschool" because of your comment about GUI's, that you usually don't write them 07:49:06 beard users? 07:49:12 <_3b> as opposed to the new school, which doesn't write GUIs either, but just goes straigfht to web app? :) 07:49:16 heh 07:49:21 web2.0? 07:49:30 Sikander: that is sooo 2008 07:49:32 web1 is sooo yesterday 07:49:36 oh 07:49:43 dang, I'm already behind 07:49:52 watch out, you might get a beard! 07:50:03 Dammit, I shaved a week ago! 07:50:38 once you have it you'll never want to get rid of it 07:50:39 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.110.199] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:50:51 d'oh! 07:50:54 Sikander: it's usually a good idea to look at Perl APIs for common things and see how they have done it. I am just skimming through the Perl implementations of NeHe's opengl tutorials, and they're spot on wrt to design. 07:51:09 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@123.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:51:20 <_3b> fusss: take notes and send 'em to the cl-opengl list :)\ 07:51:56 _3b: heh 07:52:10 i killed three bugs but i'm stuck on these next two 07:52:58 hefner: what do you do for a living? 07:53:56 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.100.126] has joined #lisp 07:54:16 fusss: thanks, I'll have a look 07:54:23 manic12: private message him please 07:54:59 did i break a rule? 07:55:09 yes, imo 07:55:23 the rule of getting a roooooooooom, you two :-D 07:55:33 heh 07:56:29 fusss: maybe with a lot of effort I can get mcclim and opengl working as I was thinking about later down the line 07:56:35 fusss: go smoke something 07:56:48 but first to understand mcclim... 07:56:59 -!- hefner [n=hefner@scatterbrain.cbp.pitt.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:57:04 i was about to actually; all this GUI talk has me worn out like a $10 thai ladyboy 07:57:21 brb, failure smoke! 07:57:46 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp011.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 07:57:53 well, time for me to turn in 07:57:56 goodnight 07:58:28 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:59:07 kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@12.232.60.2] has joined #lisp 08:00:21 what's up _3b 08:01:29 <_3b> manic12: keep getting stuck on silly svg stuff :/ 08:01:47 web graphics? 08:01:48 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:08 <_3b> sort of, trying to convert it to flash 08:03:51 djkthx_ [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 08:04:17 i know some people who might find that stuff useful 08:04:21 er 08:04:26 a people 08:05:22 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:05:28 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-5.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:05:48 Davidbrcz [n=david@193.52.24.125] has joined #lisp 08:07:19 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-5.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 08:07:50 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-5.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:12:28 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 08:13:28 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:14:49 -!- rich_holygoat [n=rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [] 08:15:28 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:15:46 -!- bdowning_ is now known as bdowning 08:15:52 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:18:58 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-5.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:20:35 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-5.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:21:44 -!- milanj- [n=milan@93.87.193.246] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:27:58 leon [n=leon@153.25.32.95.c10008-a53.dsl-dynamic.vsi.ru] has joined #lisp 08:28:48 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp011.studby.uio.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:32:36 -!- jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 08:42:02 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:51:59 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-122-85.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 08:53:53 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 08:53:58 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-96.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:59:48 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host29.190-138-170.telecom.net.ar] has quit ["leaving"] 09:00:01 Tordek [n=tordek@host29.190-138-170.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 09:00:47 elias` [n=me@resnet-pat-254.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:05:38 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:27 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 09:12:26 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 09:14:43 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-144-6.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 09:15:29 -!- leon [n=leon@153.25.32.95.c10008-a53.dsl-dynamic.vsi.ru] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 09:19:46 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 09:26:11 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:26:31 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-96.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 09:31:02 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 09:32:09 leon [n=leon@177.10.32.95.c10008-a53.dsl-dynamic.vsi.ru] has joined #lisp 09:32:49 -!- leon [n=leon@177.10.32.95.c10008-a53.dsl-dynamic.vsi.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 09:37:02 cornucopic [n=r00t@192.18.192.21] has joined #lisp 09:40:18 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-207-60.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 09:40:32 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:45:11 Joreji [n=user@42-104.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:49:07 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 09:50:04 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E4452E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:47 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1E05.versanet.de] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.93.1"] 10:02:06 scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 10:12:32 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp011.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 10:13:23 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:14:59 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 10:16:57 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:17:19 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 10:18:57 seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 10:22:44 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 10:26:24 slacks21 [n=ckuttruf@ip68-101-220-87.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:45 -!- slacks21 [n=ckuttruf@ip68-101-220-87.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:31:12 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 10:34:03 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087EE0D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:10 mikezor [n=mikael@c-a1e370d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:38:19 Anyone knows what the SBCL equivalent of keenes sys:%pointer is? 10:39:23 rtra [n=user@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 10:39:46 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:08 Joreji: The portable way is to use print-unreadable-object if applicable 10:41:36 tcr: Ah cool, thanks. 10:44:33 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1E467.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:47:20 -!- mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-a1e370d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:48:10 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:49:20 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:36 -!- Joreji [n=user@42-104.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:51:55 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 10:52:43 schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 10:55:52 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.38.189] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:56:14 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1D645.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:50 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:59:10 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 11:08:03 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.13.243] has joined #lisp 11:09:03 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087EE0D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:10:52 -!- dys` is now known as dys 11:12:23 -!- envi_home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:16:06 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 11:16:28 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:17:11 jcw [n=jcw@madder.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 11:19:54 -!- jcw [n=jcw@madder.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 11:22:30 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-5.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:22:37 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-5.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:28:23 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:29:18 jmbr [n=jmbr@123.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 11:30:08 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:37:08 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:38:10 antoni [n=user@94.pool85-53-23.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 11:41:08 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.207] has joined #lisp 11:43:11 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:44:25 -!- antoni [n=user@94.pool85-53-23.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:44:47 antoni [n=user@94.pool85-53-23.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 11:45:54 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:46:35 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.13.243] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:47:18 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.15.250] has joined #lisp 11:50:23 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:51:51 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:53:23 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:54:44 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:59:19 -!- projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:59:34 projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has joined #lisp 12:01:02 -!- projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has left #lisp 12:01:14 projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has joined #lisp 12:01:24 -!- projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has left #lisp 12:01:44 Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:01:47 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp011.studby.uio.no] has quit [Client Quit] 12:01:49 projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has joined #lisp 12:01:55 projections goes thru #lisp but cannot project himself in it? 12:02:19 ? 12:06:04 how can I change "5670" to 5670? I cant find this function :/ 12:06:43 <_3b> clhs parse-integer 12:06:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_parse_.htm 12:07:04 ah thanks 12:07:53 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-144-6.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:10:08 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:11:40 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 12:11:54 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.244.206] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:11:59 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:15:41 -!- antgreen1 [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:15:46 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.15.250] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:17:18 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:18:05 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:56 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@89.166.200.192] has joined #lisp 12:23:26 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@192.18.192.21] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:24:23 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:25:35 asksol [n=ask@212.251.242.143] has joined #lisp 12:27:25 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"] 12:32:24 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.244.206] has joined #lisp 12:40:06 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:07 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-43-214.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:41:35 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.38.189] has joined #lisp 12:42:06 -!- asksol [n=ask@212.251.242.143] has quit [Client Quit] 12:42:49 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:44:44 -!- antoni [n=user@94.pool85-53-23.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:51:18 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-30-191.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:53:43 sellout [n=greg@c-24-61-10-196.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:23 Krystof [n=csr21@90.2.138.133] has joined #lisp 13:05:51 asksol [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 13:07:57 CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.119.9] has joined #lisp 13:09:14 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-21-65.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:10:16 klausi [n=klausi@port-92-193-59-240.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:12:12 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:12:37 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 13:14:59 cornucopic [n=r00t@192.18.192.21] has joined #lisp 13:17:08 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 13:17:43 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:19:54 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:22:36 iceknight [n=iceknigh@nas-12-177.dialup.farlep.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:09 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-207-60.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 13:24:37 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 13:25:14 AllNight^ [n=nobody@ai-core.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:25:22 hello all 13:25:27 'elo 13:25:40 hi tic :) 13:27:33 galdor_ [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:46 hi guys, i have a simple question 13:27:55 let's say I have a vector 13:28:07 Simple answer: yes. 13:28:10 I'd like to fill it with an structure instance per case 13:28:36 :initial-elements seems to be used to fill each case with the same item 13:28:48 'slot' 13:28:59 And it's :INITIAL-ELEMENT <<< 13:29:19 is there a cleaner way than using :initial-element nil then iterating to create a structure per case ? 13:29:24 yep typo, sorry 13:29:37 basically it's a game board 13:29:47 I dont suppose anyone here knows of a way of calling haskell code from lisp / lisp code from haskell? :) 13:29:59 galdor_: you could use :initial-contents but that would mean building a list first, which would take twice the vector space (temporarily). 13:30:44 galdor_: but you see, it's a type that has a semantical importance. It's singular because only ONE object is involved. :initial-contentS is plural because several objects are involved. 13:31:09 -!- iceknight [n=iceknigh@nas-12-177.dialup.farlep.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:31:33 mhh ok 13:32:26 galdor pasted "array" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81074 13:32:35 I just have that for the moment 13:33:00 but obviously, it runs make-zone one time and copy it in each array slot 13:33:13 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [] 13:33:15 -!- galdor_ is now known as galdor 13:33:30 I'm kind of a lisp beginner, just trying to learn 13:33:40 galdor: it does NOT copy the structure. 13:33:44 hi galdor :) 13:34:35 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:35:00 galdor: try: (setf *print-circle* t) (defstruct s (x 42)) (make-array 3 :initial-element (make-s)) 13:35:05 I mean it copies the reference 13:35:13 AllNight^: hi 13:35:18 galdor: ok. 13:35:29 sorry, to much time with C, I still think with pointers 13:36:03 ok I see it's the same structure referenced 3 times 13:36:04 galdor: pointers is pretty much exactly what's going on. 13:36:09 galdor: (let ((a (make-array (* w h)))) (loop for i below (length a) do (setf (aref a i) (make-zone))) a) 13:36:25 galdor: that's why you should assign a new structure to each slot, or use :INITIAL-CONTENTS 13:36:41 galdor: also, sure you don't want a two-dimensional array? 13:37:00 (make-array (* w h) :initial-contents (loop :repeat (* w h) :collect (make-zone))) 13:37:31 But kpreid's solution is better since it won't allocate (* w h) cons cells to be thrown away immediately. 13:37:35 two-dimensional ? it's far more slower 13:37:35 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CC0F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:37:44 at least in C it's not a good idea 13:37:45 galdor: how did you conclude that? 13:37:45 galdor: do you mind? 13:37:50 galdor: not necessarily. 13:37:59 galdor: you may always use row-major-aref 13:38:40 kpreid: in C, allocating a 2d array of side size n means allocating n times an n-sized arary 13:38:54 it decreases cache locality 13:38:55 galdor: there's no 2D arrays in C, so obviously, no C compiler may optimize 2D array access. 13:39:10 galdor: you may choose the order of the indices. 13:39:12 galdor: uh, that's not true in general. besides, 2d arrays in CL don't work that way. 13:39:32 -!- MrSpec is now known as spec[away] 13:39:41 kpreid: from my experience in signal processing, it is, but I don't know how it works in lisp :) 13:39:53 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-207-60.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 13:40:06 slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-170-244.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 13:40:09 there's still only one contiguous storage, but you get automatic handling of the multiple indexes and bounds checks, and you can use row-major-aref any time you want to consider it one-dimensional 13:40:22 pjb: your line with :initial-contents builds a list, isn't it faster to use the loop with aref ? 13:40:38 galdor: why does this need to be fast now? 13:40:41 galdor: who cares? 13:40:42 kpreid: oh the lisp compiler will take care of taht 13:40:43 galdor: yes, that's what I mentioned just one line below. 13:41:04 galdor: actually, probably not. but why are you trying to optimize *now* rather than later? 13:41:17 pkhuong: I know that early optimization isn't that good, but I'm kind of a C junky, bad reflexes I guess 13:41:25 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-170-244.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Client Quit] 13:41:30 if I can avoid something unnecessary 13:41:30 galdor: given that you don't know CL that well, I think your time would be better spent on writing your program than trying to guess at what's fast and slow in CL. 13:41:41 slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-170-244.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 13:41:44 kpreid: guess you're write 13:41:47 when in doubt, use something *simpler*, is a good rule 13:41:49 gonna use it 13:42:06 galdor: you don't know compiler-macros yet, do you? 13:42:07 what signal-processing stuff have you done galdor? (just curious) :) 13:42:09 kpreid: map-into, not loop ;) 13:42:32 -!- antgreen [n=Anthony@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 13:42:36 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-170-244.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Client Quit] 13:42:42 -!- Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving..."] 13:42:52 slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-170-244.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 13:43:05 pjb: nope 13:43:15 galdor: with a compiler macro on make-array we can transform automatically all occurences of make-instance :initial-contents with a list built in-line into a make-array with a loop assigning the slots. So with one compiler-macro function, we can optimize out all these occurences at once. 13:43:27 AllNight^: image processing such as filtering 13:43:36 pkhuong: I considered that but figured I don't have any input sequences. I forgot that it can be limited by just the result-sequence 13:43:43 galdor: that's why you shouldn't preoccupy yourself with these questions now. We've got powerful tools to deal with optimization if we need to. 13:43:44 so (map-into a #'make-zone), how nice 13:44:12 now we just need a little anaphor...*ducks* 13:44:16 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-170-244.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Client Quit] 13:44:44 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@208-45-247-237.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:46 it's so bad my dayjob is in C, I have so many things to learn in lisp :/ 13:45:03 slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-170-244.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 13:45:20 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-207-60.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 13:45:56 thank you for your help 13:45:57 galdor: be happy, at least your day job is not in C++. 13:46:13 pjb: it was on of my requirement, no C++, no java :) 13:46:21 I'm no masochist 13:46:58 if one is free to write as he wants, I guess C++ could be made usable. But when you have to respect the company style guidelines and other restrictions, C++ becomes unbearable. 13:47:26 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@192.18.192.21] has quit ["so long.."] 13:48:17 parodyoflanguage [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:49 just in case anyone's interested, I've put my slides and example code from my ELS tutorial up at http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/talks/ 13:54:14 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-43-214.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:57:41 dreish [n=dreish@207.138.47.173] has joined #lisp 14:03:18 kpreid: Cool I didn't know that about map-into; thought it'd require equal-length sequences. 14:03:53 well, in this case, there's only one sequence, so of course it is equal-length 14:04:18 it's not so much "unequal length" that is relevant as "the result sequence is sufficient" 14:05:26 kpreid: nice, your previous talks are available too 14:06:15 madnificent: I am not Krystof 14:06:35 *madnificent* is not awake 14:06:39 *madnificent* gets a coffee 14:06:41 he's published more than I have :) 14:06:54 s/kpreid/Krystof/ (my apologies) 14:08:42 Krystof: I like your slide layout; what did you make it with? 14:08:49 beamer 14:08:58 a slightly modified Hannover theme 14:13:39 coderdad [n=coderdad@72.200.214.240] has joined #lisp 14:13:46 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-61-10-196.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:13:58 sellout [n=greg@c-24-61-10-196.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:30 -!- asksol [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [Client Quit] 14:15:09 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:16 hello chessguy 14:16:47 'mornin 14:17:44 -!- klausi [n=klausi@port-92-193-59-240.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:22:26 *AllNight^* thinks he will join madnificent in getting a coffee :) 14:23:49 Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:28:55 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:30:33 dnm_ [n=dnm@70-100-224-246.dr04.glvv.ny.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:36 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 14:32:43 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.174.28] has joined #lisp 14:36:20 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:36:24 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-61-10-196.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:37:21 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E4434B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:22 sellout [n=greg@c-24-61-10-196.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:32 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:40:34 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-5.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:40:52 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E4452E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:46:01 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-170-244.3g.claro.net.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:46:29 mops [n=marcus@h59ec2263.c46-04-13.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:10 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@72.200.214.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:52:15 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 14:54:33 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.119.9] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:54:37 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-96.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:55:26 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:56:54 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-45-59.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:57:20 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:00 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@123.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:58:43 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["leaving"] 15:01:54 Can it be that abcl compiles rather slowly? 15:02:25 blackwolf [n=blackwol@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:43 benny [n=benny@24.106.113.82.net.de.o2.com] has joined #lisp 15:02:53 tcr: yes. clisp is a faster compiler. 15:03:41 fortunately, the speed of the COMPILER almost never matters these days 15:04:01 in my experience, ccl has the remarkably fast compiler 15:05:08 X-Scale2 [i=email@89.180.94.243] has joined #lisp 15:05:26 rsynnott: but abcl seems to be really slow, so slow that sbcl appears blazingly fast in comparasion 15:05:55 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-21-65.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:02 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:07:39 tcr: doing lots of clos stuff? 15:07:49 I seem to remember that being REALLY slow on abcl 15:08:18 No compiling swank 15:10:39 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@89.166.200.192] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:11:48 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@123.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:12:22 -!- benny [n=benny@24.106.113.82.net.de.o2.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.93.1"] 15:12:37 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.38.189] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:12:37 Vutral [n=vutral@nathan.66h.42h.de] has joined #lisp 15:12:41 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:18:20 monra [n=monra@147.52.195.210] has joined #lisp 15:19:48 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 15:20:06 -!- mops [n=marcus@h59ec2263.c46-04-13.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:20:11 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 15:20:30 trouffle [n=irc@c-13e3e055.31-4-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:20:58 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:21:15 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 15:22:17 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.49.17] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:23:32 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-96.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 15:23:36 parodyoflanguage [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:28 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-140-127.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 15:25:44 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.207] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:25:56 -!- monra [n=monra@147.52.195.210] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:27:45 you can add arguments to defclass (besides :metaclass :documentation etc) and they will be sent to ensure-class. However, when I add new arguments, I can't see them in initialize (or reinitialize)-instance as an initarg-error is signaled. I can't find anything about this in the mop dictionary 15:29:33 Orest_ [n=orest@p4FC463F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:56 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:35:34 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:35:54 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:50 -!- trouffle [n=irc@c-13e3e055.31-4-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:41:58 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 15:42:29 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:46:34 parodyoflanguage [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:53 cirquitz [n=cirquitz@59.164.40.222] has joined #lisp 15:47:14 lakedenma [n=irchon@cpe-075-181-164-010.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:48:18 -!- lakedenma [n=irchon@cpe-075-181-164-010.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:48:56 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-61-10-196.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:52:18 -!- Orest- [n=orest@p4FC47B7C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 15:54:19 xan [n=xan@14.Red-88-15-104.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:42 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-26-201.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:59:39 -!- cirquitz [n=cirquitz@59.164.40.222] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:01:48 Gamarok__ [n=sony@117.98.8.200] has joined #lisp 16:02:09 -!- Gamarok__ [n=sony@117.98.8.200] has left #lisp 16:02:33 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@12.232.60.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:08:31 so java's new garbage collector is only available if you buy a support contract. 16:09:35 what?! 16:09:37 really? 16:09:46 so it is. 16:10:06 clever Sun/Oracle! 16:10:18 I assume it's faster/more efficient than the existing one? 16:10:23 http://java.sun.com/javase/6/webnotes/6u14.html 16:10:41 a move away from the current concurrent mark/sweep collector. i don't have details. 16:10:44 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 16:10:57 (sssh; you'll give the sbcl people ideas :) ) 16:11:03 *Fade* chuckles 16:11:51 it sounds like they're using a generational collector, but they don't say so. 16:13:32 *p_l* wonders if he doesn't have that G1 already 16:14:01 apparently it's in the sdk and can be enabled at start time, but you need the support contract to use it 'in production'. 16:14:16 *rsynnott* wonders how they propose to enforce this 16:14:36 snitches, I imagine. 16:15:16 Fade: I think it's like "unless you have support contract for htis, we will drop any problems you tell us if you're using new GC" 16:15:16 what I'm wondering is how this interacts with the rest of the runtime licensed under the GPL. 16:15:51 -!- jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:16:07 jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has joined #lisp 16:16:37 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:16:55 the java runtime isn't licensed under the GPL, is it? 16:17:12 1.7.x is 16:17:14 i believe it is. the wikipedia article on java backs this up. 16:17:28 1.6.x *isn't* 16:18:02 at least as far as I know, the first really GPLed runtime is the 1.7 16:18:06 daedra [n=Simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has joined #lisp 16:18:23 well, the wiki article says that the latest release (1.6.0_14) is mixed GPL/Java community process 16:18:39 it all sounds a horrible mess to me. 16:19:00 and just as clojure was warming me up to java. 16:19:05 Fade: Yeah, but the GPL stuff that is in 1.6.x is probably what got backported from 1.7 16:19:11 *p_l* is using 1.7 16:19:26 *drewc* does not have java installed 16:19:26 I have no java projects, thanks yaweh. 16:19:32 is 1.7 just GPL, or multi-licensed 16:19:44 ? 16:19:49 *madnificent* is forced to code java from time to time. 1.6 installed 16:20:20 rsynnott: Mostly GPL, afaik. There possibly exist some commercial license, and few components are licensed with prioprietary licenses (they were licensed to Sun) 16:20:59 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:21:41 Sun could be dodgy enough, but Oracle have allways been practitioners of felonious cock sucking. 16:21:54 =P 16:22:12 Oracle particularly enjoy the dual-GPL commercial licensing scheme 16:22:26 -l 16:24:46 -!- daedra [n=Simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has left #lisp 16:25:27 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@90.2.138.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:27:15 saikat_ [n=saikat@72-254-105-175.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:57 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:38:08 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:40 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.174.28] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:44:43 vy [n=user@88.231.234.194] has joined #lisp 16:47:34 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-205-47.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:54 Does Hunchentoot run on ClozureCL? 16:48:38 Oh. Crud. Do I have to upgrade Hunchentoot now? Blech. 16:50:50 It does 16:50:54 and has for years 16:52:22 loxs [n=loxs@77.85.234.205] has joined #lisp 16:52:45 around the time of the major rev. hunchentoot wasn't too happy with clozure, but it works now. 16:55:50 JAS415 [n=jon@c-24-34-16-25.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:42 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@72-254-105-175.client.stsn.net] has quit [] 17:05:51 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 17:09:31 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@70-100-224-246.dr04.glvv.ny.frontiernet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:16:07 ejs [n=eugen@242-29-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:27 dalton [n=lhugbj@189-19-118-119.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:20:11 iceknight [n=iceknigh@nas-12-177.dialup.farlep.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:49 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 17:27:09 hi. Was there anybody here who attended the ABCL lightning talk on ELS? 17:30:47 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:34:50 hi, can anoyone suggest a way to speed this up? I feel like I'm doing something wrong with 45 seconds of real time and 96 billion cycles: (defparameter *out* (map-into (make-list 176400) (lambda () 0))) 17:35:16 kmcorbett [n=Keith@tvwna-ip-b-174.princeton.org] has joined #lisp 17:35:25 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:35:54 <_3b> (make-list 176400 0) ? 17:36:09 <_3b> vector would probably be better though 17:36:39 -!- AllNight^ is now known as AllNight^afk 17:37:23 _3b: thanks 17:37:29 <_3b> (make-list 176400 :initial-elemebnt 0) rather 17:37:56 yea, looked that up, thanks. it's a bit faster :) 17:39:00 what do you want with this enormous list? 17:39:04 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@tvwna-ip-b-174.princeton.org] has left #lisp 17:39:05 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@123.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:39:19 <_3b> stress the GC? :p 17:39:41 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:39:50 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:39:54 rsynnott: it's a list of PCM samples I'm sending to my soundcard eventually 17:40:14 <_3b> yeah, that sounds like it should be a vector 17:40:19 alright 17:41:03 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:31 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:47:33 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:49:14 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 17:49:28 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-146-93.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:44 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:52:13 antoni [n=user@198.pool85-53-33.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 17:52:43 hi all 17:53:13 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:54:17 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 17:54:41 asksol [n=ask@212.251.218.200] has joined #lisp 17:54:51 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@209-161-237-104.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 17:55:47 kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@tvwna-ip-b-174.princeton.org] has joined #lisp 17:59:47 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:00:17 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@209-161-237-104.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 18:00:26 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:50 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:57 kmcorbett2 [n=Keith@tvwna-ip-b-174.princeton.org] has joined #lisp 18:03:12 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:03:18 -!- kmcorbett2 [n=Keith@tvwna-ip-b-174.princeton.org] has left #lisp 18:05:23 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@tvwna-ip-b-174.princeton.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:07:23 hi 18:07:29 Was there anybody here who attended the ABCL lightning talk on ELS? 18:10:00 dvl_ [n=didier@93-35-149-206.ip55.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 18:12:42 -!- dvl_ [n=didier@93-35-149-206.ip55.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:13:48 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 18:15:09 ol 18:15:36 the global circuit ? 18:16:04 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:16:05 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:23 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 18:17:59 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 18:18:11 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 18:19:52 benny` [n=benny@i577A2846.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:21:06 -!- benny` is now known as benny 18:23:04 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:26:47 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 18:31:23 -!- AllNight^afk [n=nobody@ai-core.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:32:07 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 18:34:12 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 18:36:38 `dvl` [n=didier@93-35-149-206.ip55.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 18:36:47 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:22 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:37:58 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:05 -!- Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 18:41:28 Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:41:42 -!- `dvl` is now known as |dvl| 18:42:58 -!- |dvl| [n=didier@93-35-149-206.ip55.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:43:11 |dvl| [n=didier@93-35-149-206.ip55.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 18:43:26 So it seems that DEFINE-METHOD-COMBINATION is used for run-time code generation, didn't know that. 18:45:18 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:45:57 tcr: who does that? where does it do that? 18:46:12 cadabra [n=cadabra@adsl-69-107-100-31.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:58 -!- cadabra is now known as mirza 18:47:09 ehu`: a method combination is applied to the set of applicable method objects to produce the form which represents the effective method 18:48:33 to be precise, it's applied to the sorted list of applicable methods 18:50:18 ah. ok. there's more like that in CLOS: if I look at CLOS.lisp in ABCL, it does a lot of code generation. 18:51:05 I think it's what makes shaking out the run-time compiler non-trivial 18:51:32 btw. abcl seems rather slow, takes minutes here to compile swank 18:51:56 perhaps not literally "minutes", just perception 18:52:21 -!- |dvl| [n=didier@93-35-149-206.ip55.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:52:29 -!- asksol [n=ask@212.251.218.200] has quit [Client Quit] 18:53:44 that could be. It needs tuning. The problem with that is data. Someone needs to do the profiling. 18:54:01 I've been working on correctness so far. 18:54:14 speed would be a nice next step. 18:54:35 would you be able to tell me where it spends its time? (when compiling/loading swank, that is) 18:56:07 Well, that depends how easy profiling is. Do I need java knowledge for that? 18:57:21 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:57:31 very little. 18:58:19 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.100.126] has quit ["Log this!"] 18:58:21 I have the NetBeans IDE; I load abcl in it, start the profiler (tell it to look at the org.armedbear.lisp.* packages and classes) and run whatever commands I need. 18:59:16 Is there nothing self-contained? 18:59:49 well, there's a profiler inside ABCL, but that's a call-counter, not time spent. 19:00:37 so I think that's not a real option: call counting doesn't tell you about bottle necks, usually. 19:01:25 is there any way to have multiple :around methods on the same class? 19:01:26 Well, if you're interested in people reporting profiling data, I think you should make it available from Lisp. So it can be used from Slime. 19:02:30 ramus`: No, and yes. Incidentally that's what I'm pondering about right now. 19:02:45 or have been 19:02:53 did you come up with anything? 19:03:01 tcr: I see that *maybe* there's an option to create it. 19:03:20 tcr: incidentally: when a function gets recompiled, what do you expect to happen to the profiling data? 19:04:00 ramus`: Why do you think you need it? 19:04:12 where recompile may mean "new code" or "same code, now compiled" 19:04:31 seperate modules wanting to do something when the value of some slot is changed 19:04:55 ehu`: Interesting question. I have to pass, though. You should probably talk to the sbcl crew about it. 19:06:08 ramus`: What's "module"? 19:06:31 in this case, packages 19:07:50 ramus`: You could create an internal method which takes *package* as first argument, you can that specialize on that in your different packages 19:08:05 s/that/then/ 19:09:37 ehu`: judging from the docstring of sb-profile:profile, sbcl seems to unprofile, and reprofile on redefinition 19:10:34 -!- projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has quit [] 19:10:39 since it's a new function sitting on that symbol, I guess that's the sane thing to do. 19:10:41 thanks. 19:10:43 parodyoflanguage [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:51 -!- antoni [n=user@198.pool85-53-33.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:11:17 ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 19:13:52 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:51 ehu`: I'm happy to hack in the necessary support in swank-abcl.lisp, and profile various stuff. 19:17:56 that's great! I'll have to come up with a way to profile ABCL from inside ABCL. I see that the high-res timer requirement is there, at least. 19:18:21 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 19:19:30 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:21:08 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:22:33 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:28 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:14 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068082222.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:32 ehu`: Does abcl have threads? 19:36:37 ys. 19:36:39 yes. 19:36:55 and it has threading precautions on things like hash-access. 19:39:41 no 19:39:48 it has suprathreads 19:40:08 Vutral: and you are? 19:40:53 i am analytics and artificial intelligence engineer 19:41:37 and you're using abcl? 19:41:40 -!- Corun is now known as Corun|away 19:44:03 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:44:04 sthalik [n=sthalik@c157-21.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:44:09 -!- sthalik is now known as weirdo 19:44:12 hey 19:44:39 thought so. 19:44:51 hey 19:45:08 there's an interesting point on cll, such that constant literals can't feasibly be stored into ROM 19:45:21 Prove it. 19:45:58 (defvar *foo* (list 1 2 3)) (defun foo () '#.*foo*) (eq *foo* (foo)) 19:46:41 -!- Corun|away is now known as Corun 19:47:06 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:07 weirdo: That does not need to be true. 19:47:24 ehu`: Is there something like condition-wait? 19:47:42 apropos for "WAIT" is not successfull 19:47:45 i see 19:47:50 tcr: how's editor-hints? 19:48:25 named-readtables? 19:48:31 yep 19:48:39 any luck on that impl i sent ya? 19:49:11 I think I rolled my own. 19:49:19 glad to hear 19:49:25 bye! :) 19:49:29 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c157-21.icpnet.pl] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:50:00 Can ClozureCL grok utf-8 source files? 19:50:23 tcr: I found thread-locks and mutexes. 19:50:30 but condition-wait, not yet. 19:51:05 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@208-45-247-237.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [] 19:53:54 -!- iceknight [n=iceknigh@nas-12-177.dialup.farlep.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:54:07 so I just installed that netbeans ide 19:54:31 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as X-Scale 19:57:13 ok. then you have an abcl checkout/download? 19:57:26 with the ide, use File -> Open project 19:57:30 and go to that directory. 19:57:35 yes it's compiling 19:57:35 danlei [n=user@pD9E2F826.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:41 where's the profiler? 19:58:05 right next to the Debug menu I have a Profile menu. 19:58:09 That's where it is. 19:58:45 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-69-148-18-246.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:58:46 if you open the ABCL project, you should be able to run "Profile Main Project" 19:58:57 Modius [n=Modius@69.149.25.157] has joined #lisp 19:59:26 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 20:00:00 Still compiling. 20:00:11 np. I'll be here. 20:00:13 Is the abcl mailinglist available through gmane? 20:00:26 I think it is, yes. 20:00:35 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:55 -!- xan [n=xan@14.Red-88-15-104.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:01:25 can't find "armed", not "abcl", anything else I should look for? 20:01:47 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-205-47.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:02:08 *ehu`* searches 20:03:09 http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.editors.j.devel 20:04:45 Thanks. 20:05:04 Is there a way to find the source location for stuff that is implemented directly in java? 20:07:05 yes. right-click then Navigate -> Go to source 20:07:09 (or something like it) 20:07:56 Nah I mean from Lisp :) 20:08:22 -!- loxs [n=loxs@77.85.234.205] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:08:37 other than GREP, I'm not aware of it, unfortunately. 20:08:57 loxs [n=loxs@77.85.234.205] has joined #lisp 20:09:12 but most functions available to the lisp world are in Primitives.java and SpecialOperators.java 20:10:44 ok I had to install a plugin for the profiler 20:12:16 tcr: what kind of data and representation were you thinking of re memory consumption? 20:13:17 structures and standard-objects 20:14:18 Modius_ [n=Modius@69.149.25.157] has joined #lisp 20:14:56 iceknight [n=iceknigh@nas-12-197.dialup.farlep.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:20 -!- iceknight [n=iceknigh@nas-12-197.dialup.farlep.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 20:17:22 Modius__ [n=Modius@69.149.25.157] has joined #lisp 20:18:21 iceknight [n=iceknigh@nas-12-197.dialup.farlep.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:39 ehu`: Target "profile" does not exist in the project "abcl-master". 20:18:55 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:19:08 It said I had to change the build.xml file manually, but I clicked away that dialog window already 20:19:26 -!- iceknight [n=iceknigh@nas-12-197.dialup.farlep.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 20:20:18 iceknight [n=iceknigh@nas-12-197.dialup.farlep.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:13 -!- iceknight [n=iceknigh@nas-12-197.dialup.farlep.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 20:21:18 huh? ok. Well, I'll change the build.xml file then. 20:21:36 sorry about that, but it'll be there by the end of the weekend. 20:22:01 I'm using ABCL in another application, but I can run my commands inside ABCL, so that's how I was able to profile. 20:22:02 -!- Modius [n=Modius@69.149.25.157] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:22:14 Modius [n=Modius@69.149.25.157] has joined #lisp 20:23:35 iceknight [n=iceknigh@nas-12-197.dialup.farlep.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:50 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-205-47.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:27 -!- iceknight [n=iceknigh@nas-12-197.dialup.farlep.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 20:24:48 -!- Modius [n=Modius@69.149.25.157] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:25:04 iceknight [n=iceknigh@nas-12-197.dialup.farlep.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:04 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@69.149.25.157] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:25:10 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@69.149.25.157] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:26:10 -!- iceknight [n=iceknigh@nas-12-197.dialup.farlep.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 20:27:10 iceknight [n=iceknigh@nas-12-197.dialup.farlep.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:01 I removed the abcl project, but now I cannot seem to open it anew 20:29:19 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:30:00 weird 20:30:29 and now I can't even run the abcl executable anymore :) 20:30:32 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["leaving"] 20:30:55 gotta love the obivously superior state of the java world 20:31:39 tcr: but didn't you know? Lisp libraries are harder to install than anthing else 20:31:58 we know this because people complain ablut it, generally people who have not used them 20:32:04 also, they don't exist 20:32:30 -!- loxs [n=loxs@77.85.234.205] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:32:33 believing anything else marks you out as a smug lisp user to be made fun of on Reddit 20:33:43 asksol [n=ask@212.251.218.200] has joined #lisp 20:34:31 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@193.52.24.125] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:35:20 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 20:36:21 rvirding [n=rvirding@h59n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:36:45 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1D7F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:46 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 20:39:24 I'm getting this from ClozureCCL Stream # is private to #. 20:39:35 Any idea what I should do about it? 20:39:40 loxs [n=loxs@77.85.234.205] has joined #lisp 20:40:45 This is with a moderately old Hunchentoot and a brand-spanking new CCL. 20:42:07 -!- iceknight [n=iceknigh@nas-12-197.dialup.farlep.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:42:26 when is it doing that? 20:44:41 well there goes 2.5 hours of satanist rock.. 20:45:32 Joreji [n=user@42-104.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:46:57 -!- mirza [n=cadabra@adsl-69-107-100-31.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:50:21 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-129.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:50:21 gigamonkey: I take it it is < 1.0 version with start-server rather than start (accessor ... 20:51:51 ? 20:52:56 cadabra [n=cadabra@adsl-69-107-100-31.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:11 -!- cadabra is now known as mirza 20:55:02 -!- loxs [n=loxs@77.85.234.205] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:58:35 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:59:12 Anyone knows how I can obtain a "class metaobject" using MOP for a given user defined class (i.e. defined per defclass)? 21:00:35 hi, if I have an array of :element-type '(unsigned-byte 16) can I map a function over it returning an array of :element-type '(unsigned-byte 16) ? 21:02:03 egn: (map '(vector (unsigned-byte 16)) fn vec). 21:02:11 vy: thanks 21:08:40 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068082222.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:09:16 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-24-17-191-2.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:39 cadabra [n=cadabra@adsl-69-107-116-60.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:28 Joreji, what is your question exactly? are you looking for (find-class 'foo) ? 21:10:53 -!- cadabra is now known as mirza` 21:11:03 -!- mirza [n=cadabra@adsl-69-107-100-31.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:11:12 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-96.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:11:58 manic12: Yes, thank you :!) 21:12:24 that's not technically mop, that's just clos 21:13:10 Yeah, but the mop requires whatever find-class returns. I didn't think of that (all I could think of was the symbol naming the class). 21:17:28 jthing: sorry, I was away. 21:17:37 You mean < 1.0 of hunchentoot? 21:18:15 If so, yeah. 0.11.1. 21:18:41 -!- Corun is now known as Corun|away 21:18:52 jook [n=jook@adsl-85-217-1-254.kotinet.com] has joined #lisp 21:19:37 are u all green fingers like me 21:20:09 what is a green finger? is that like a green thumb? 21:20:15 rsynnott: and to your question: when I try to browse a web page. 21:20:18 noone wants to talk right now and is sad 21:21:07 don't you have a pet? 21:21:11 -!- Corun|away is now known as Corun 21:21:20 a cat 21:21:33 my cat always listens to me 21:21:49 manic12: maybe his cat got bored... 21:22:03 ill teach mine democracy' 21:22:45 jook: cats believe in autocracy, that is, they are on top, humans lower, then is the rest ;-) 21:22:47 everone i s bored and feels noone now 21:22:58 p_l is right 21:23:12 it just is 21:23:16 also, bringing democracy somewhere should be considered an act of utter evilness 21:23:28 theres now reason for it 21:24:18 how did your psychology test go p_l? 21:24:26 manic12: I hope I'll pass 21:24:45 I had fallen asleep near the end, but it was after I wrote down all answers... 21:25:16 humans are great? if ya see documentary about amazonian tribes killing eatch other and then thi, whats wrong with em 21:25:42 and someone just shot ur neighbour 21:26:01 it ain't so different everywhere else 21:26:05 More lisp, less noise. 21:26:09 jook: One of the things I never understood is how people try to rewrite humanity as somehow nice and moral species... 21:26:14 im not even talking about wars 21:26:22 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 21:27:11 never been seems like javachat before 21:27:12 we still exist because we were worst, most ruthless badasses all around. We invented morals to keep that only to others (that is, other societies, groups, species etc.) 21:28:08 its all gone soon 21:28:13 even hopoe 21:29:04 *p_l* has hope. Quite a lot of it. However, it might rub religious/conservatist people (and the second group includes quite a lot of non-religious people, believe me) rather wrong :) 21:29:37 dmitry_vk [n=dmitry_v@89.232.126.96] has joined #lisp 21:29:39 everything is wrong 21:29:56 jook, perhaps you should check yourself into the hospital 21:30:34 -!- Joreji [n=user@42-104.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:30:48 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:30:50 i agree lol 21:30:58 ok then go 21:30:59 if you avoid the crooks that want to play with "repressed memories", you can get professional psychologic help... I'm personally rather content being insane 21:31:36 im just paranoid schizo 21:31:55 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:32:13 i dont trust anyone and never will 21:32:36 -!- ausente is now known as dalton 21:32:49 jook, please, this is not a forum for mental issues 21:33:27 ok,whata re we talking about? 21:33:36 if you're depressed then check yourself into the hospital, they can help you 21:34:07 so what arre u people talking anbout? 21:34:30 computer language, specifically LISP 21:34:45 ok 21:35:07 i used to program 64 machine language 21:35:24 comodore 21:35:29 d 21:35:56 6502 was nice chip 21:36:00 LISP sounds beautiful but whats the point 21:36:11 to have fun with it 21:36:14 i can't deal with existential crisis in coders. 21:36:27 Vicfred [n=Vicfred@201.102.57.186] has joined #lisp 21:36:30 163#6 21:36:37 sta 1024 21:36:38 go away 21:36:40 -!- dmitry_vk [n=dmitry_v@89.232.126.96] has left #lisp 21:36:42 lol 21:36:58 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:10 -!- gigamonkey` [n=user@adsl-99-17-205-47.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:37:25 gigamonkey` [n=user@adsl-76-254-16-215.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:25 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-16-215.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:25 im stoned so sorry lol 21:37:33 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-205-47.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:37:35 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 21:37:41 go away then 21:38:13 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:38:14 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-175-96.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:24 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:25 being stoned isnt bad 21:38:37 it obviously isn't helping you! 21:38:55 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 21:39:01 -!- asksol [n=ask@212.251.218.200] has quit [Client Quit] 21:39:02 i dont need no help 21:39:10 -!- anfairch [n=user@nat/microsoft/x-36eae216a78aeb49] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:39:24 once you get that through your head and quit you will feel good 21:40:31 should i hugh u , or what? thanks dr phillious 21:41:36 -!- vy [n=user@88.231.234.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:41:42 i'm sure you won't remember this conversation but once you get your shit together you will agree 21:42:23 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:29 im sure but ,i cant remeber this so how could i change 21:43:04 agree on what? 21:43:07 who wants to talk shop for 20 minutes? 21:43:59 people are mean so i bet a lot does 21:44:00 manic12: depends on how shoppy 21:44:38 Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 21:45:45 i dunno, i am stuck in a [technical] rut trying to debug 21:45:57 what does Rsp mean manic? 21:46:34 -!- mirza` [n=cadabra@adsl-69-107-116-60.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:46:53 i can't get this window to refresh even when i give it a force refresh 21:47:30 im looking for rhythm 21:47:43 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-129.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:47:51 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:47:59 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:49:26 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 21:49:42 -!- jook [n=jook@adsl-85-217-1-254.kotinet.com] has quit ["http://www.chatmosphere.org: Chat & Dating community ..."] 21:50:21 can we block that whole server? 21:53:10 manic12: what display system/library? 21:53:53 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-140-127.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:54:15 Hmmmm. I've done something that causes both Allegro and SBCL to write out files in, it seems, UTF-8 by default. 21:54:23 Which is cool but I don't know what it is. 21:54:29 Now ClozureCL isn't doing it. 21:54:47 p_l: I'm using windows 21:54:48 Is it possible SBCL would heed LANG=en_US.UTF-8 21:55:13 manic12: talking to GDI directly or through something different? 21:55:39 no, I'm using win32, no GDI calls really 21:56:01 once I get the window open I paint with opengl 21:57:08 windows ignores one of two paint messages in a row 21:57:16 Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:38 and you supposedly can force it to repaint anyway, but that doesn't seem to be working 21:58:51 AllNight^ [n=nobody@ai-core.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:59:00 hmmm... ignoring OpenGL paint or Win32 paint messages? 21:59:15 opengl doesn't have paint messages 21:59:31 ejs1 [n=eugen@242-29-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:39 i have to go now 21:59:44 see you later 21:59:55 manic12: see you 21:59:59 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h59n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 22:00:13 (and I meant whatever calls you were using ;) ) 22:01:12 sexybaaron [n=sexybaar@c-68-42-43-61.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:56 is the topic of discussion still opengl? 22:02:50 Sikander: it can be... 22:03:14 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 22:03:22 You're working under linux or windows? 22:04:24 I'm on linux (and I'm not sure if trying to run gl code will not crash stupid intel driver) 22:05:34 well, yesterday evening, I was advised to use (climi:use-pixie) in mcclim. Crashed X... Same stupid intel EXA driver 22:06:05 -!- sexybaaron [n=sexybaar@c-68-42-43-61.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:06:10 and use-pixie is only pixmaps... 22:06:31 Sikander: Whine on how bad it is on x.org. Intel driver (and a lot of other stuff that is happening now with X) makes me sick 22:07:40 p_l: yeah... but I can't contribute anything but the whining on x.org, and I don't feel like digging into the code... 22:07:50 p_l: so do not use intel products ? 22:08:31 the nature of X is such that it will always be plagued by these issues 22:08:37 What's the easiest way to find out what SBCL is using as the default external-format? 22:10:01 Well, apparently, the new binary nvidia drivers aren't great either 22:11:00 they're better than software 3D. 22:11:29 Apparently, (climi:use-pixie) also crashes X when using nvidia 22:11:41 I wonder if it has something to do with use-pixie.... 22:14:01 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 22:14:09 xristos: sometimes you don't get to choose 22:14:32 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:15:25 I think that the intel driver was fine maybe a year ago. Pretty stable etc, with working 3d accel 22:16:18 Dunno exactly which version any more, though 22:16:39 I think that was before X3100 ;-) 22:19:36 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@242-29-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:22:24 p_l: I admit, I'm only using the mobile GM965. Drivers worked fine, though. I'm just too lazy to downgrade and I don't really need the 3D performance at this moment 22:22:46 Sikander: GM965 is X3100 22:22:55 Really? 22:22:59 See how much I care... 22:23:03 :) 22:23:23 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Mobile GM965/GL960 Integrated Graphics Controller 22:23:37 Yep 22:23:38 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-13-73.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:41 That's the one 22:24:11 Still, I have some memories of it working fine a year ago... 22:24:31 Sikander: Well, before I tried to get 3D really working it was working kind of fine 22:24:41 then 2.7.0 brought a set of bugs in everything 22:25:29 So I have one of these vaio laptops where I can switch to an nvidia card. 3D performance there is much better and stable, but it takes a lot of battery life and I don't need 3D per se 22:25:55 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["restart"] 22:25:56 -!- AllNight^ is now known as AllNight^afk 22:27:11 Is it because of the whole EXA/UXA and GEM thing that they became so unreliable? 22:27:38 Sikander: possibly 22:28:16 p_l: do you ever write gui's in lisp? If so, what do you use? 22:28:22 X.Org and rest of the linux-on-desktop bunch is happily destroying X11 22:29:12 Sikander: I haven't written much in Lisp, and certainly not GUIs - I've been playing with CommonQt and LTK, though (and lately had a little taste of CLIM) 22:29:39 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:47 I'm personally planning on using Qt, either CommonQt or cl-smoke 22:29:58 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 22:30:44 While I've played with lisp a long time ago, I recently rediscovered it. It's not such a problem making my programs work, but for some stuff a GUI would be nice. So I started to dive into mcclim yesterday 22:32:31 p_l: What is your impression of CLIM? 22:32:38 Is it worth learning? 22:33:13 Sikander: In my case, my first impression was "McCLIM keeps crashing on me". Given that every Java/Swing app crashes too, it wasn't that bad 22:33:15 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.246.50] has joined #lisp 22:34:20 it's certainly the only CL-oriented API that is around, but at least now I'm not sure if writing a widget library operating on top of Qt wouldn't support what I want better 22:35:22 p_l: I just tried a few examples of McCLIM yesterday and for that it was pretty stable and nice with freetype. The pixie thing kept crashing X though, so I don't use it 22:38:08 I'm still not far enough with CLIM to really decide whether it's good or bad for me 22:39:13 I read some things about the design and so on. It definately seems a nice way to visualise lisp data structures and to get input from the user in a lispy way 22:39:37 I'll have a look at cl_smoke, though, it's qt-based? 22:40:09 cl-smoke is another take on SMOKE2, gives FFI interface to Qt, QtWebkit and few others, including KDE libs 22:40:16 requires mudballs though 22:41:44 bruceb3 [n=user@136.187.233.220.exetel.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:41:46 hmmm maybe I'll just stick with either McCLIM or lambda-gtk 22:41:46 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB"] 22:42:02 Sikander: lambda-gtk works for you? 22:43:11 Eh, haven't tried it yet. I just thought it would be a good candidate since I have experience with GTK and C 22:44:32 back when I tried, the only stable toolkit was Tk... I tried running many of those gtk bindings, to no success 22:45:15 really? Isn't lambda-gtk supposed to be automatically generated ffi? Should work, no? 22:45:26 Sikander: FFI is tricky... 22:45:45 Joreji [n=user@42-104.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:47:12 Hey guys, what would be the easiest way to subsequently call a function and collect all its values into a list until the function returns nil? 22:47:23 p_l: I know, I wrote a few bindings to some of my older C code. That worked fine, though. 22:48:57 -!- dalton is now known as Grigory_Rasputin 22:48:59 Joreji: (loop for x = (f) while x collect x) 22:49:30 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:50:11 Well, gotta go 22:50:14 dnm_ [n=dnm@250.sub-75-222-67.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 22:50:45 kpreid: Cool, thanks. 22:50:48 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@ip98-185-236-17.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:53:43 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@208-45-247-237.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:00 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:15 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1D7F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:59:16 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 23:01:40 -!- Vicfred [n=Vicfred@201.102.57.186] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:02:00 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-13-73.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:02:44 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.244.206] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:08:12 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-81-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:48 tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:12:28 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 23:15:50 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-16-215.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:17:57 Vicfred [n=Vicfred@201.102.57.186] has joined #lisp 23:18:32 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-24-17-191-2.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:19:38 -!- Grigory_Rasputin [n=lhugbj@189-19-118-119.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit ["EJECT"] 23:20:52 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-32.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:22:19 kpreid "loop, for, while, collect"? wouldn't it be just easier to say 'loop'? 23:22:45 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:23:42 uh, ... that wouldn't do the same thing? 23:25:02 for x in range(0,100,1): print x # this is how python does it. 23:25:19 you don't need four keywords, just one to produce a loop. 23:25:29 JohnnyL: that doesn't do the same thing. 23:25:32 JohnnyL: again, this doesn't do the same as the lisp expression! 23:25:48 kpreid if you have been listening thats not my point. 23:26:57 JohnnyL: then what IS your point? 23:27:09 kpreid read what I wrote. 23:27:28 each of FOR, WHILE, COLLECT specifies a specific behavior in the loop construct 23:27:45 you do not use all of them all the time 23:27:51 minion: logs? 23:27:52 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 23:27:53 for this particular application, that works. 23:28:45 hum, if you don't like CL:LOOP, then you could have implemented a FOR macro yourself that worked like this: (for x in range (0 100 1) do (print x)) ..or whatever 23:29:03 JohnnyL: sorry, but I don't see anything from you in this erc window or in the logs before " kpreid "loop, for, while, collect"? wouldn't it be just easier to say 'loop'?". 23:29:05 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-81-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:29:20 JohnnyL: what's your point? 23:29:42 "you don't need four keywords, just one to produce a loop." 23:30:12 loop doesn't require four keywords (loop (write-line "hello")) you just need "loop" 23:30:13 JohnnyL: this isn't "a generic loop". this is a SPECIFIC loop accomplishing a specific task. 23:30:48 JohnnyL: indeed. But LOOP produces not just one kind of loops, but a great number of differnet loops. It generates families of loops. Hence the need for a number of optional keyword arguments to be used in combination. 23:31:03 if you ask me, it's not a very well thought out part of Common Lisp. 23:31:14 lol 23:31:29 JohnnyL: you may prefer ITERATE. 23:31:34 how would you have expressed it then, JohnnyL ? 23:31:40 a_loop; is_a_loop jmp a_loop; 23:31:49 ok, i don't have time for this .. bye 23:33:06 antoni [n=user@162.pool85-53-19.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:34:37 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["leaving"] 23:35:05 -!- antoni [n=user@162.pool85-53-19.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:37:38 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:40:33 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:48:37 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has left #lisp 23:50:12 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-16-215.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:17 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:51:21 alpheus [n=user@98.215.226.98] has joined #lisp 23:53:08 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:20 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:59:42 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-26-201.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"]