00:02:32 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:04:08 -!- daedra [n=simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:07:24 nyef: I had seen a webserver that hold preformatter TCP messages... 00:07:33 *held 00:08:58 *hefner* thought that was what the exokernel guys implemented 00:09:10 though that was because of being *really* constrained in memory 00:09:48 hefner: Well, that's possible, but if I got an exokernel and enough space for a real system, it wouldn't be that hard to implement proper stack 00:09:58 p_l: how constrained?! There's a TCP/IP stack + HTTP server in *scheme* on a PIC at the U. 00:10:08 p_l: The problem is getting the requests if they're sent perpetually out-of-order and fragmented. 00:10:36 pkhuong: I think it was a microcontroller, too. One that didn't have a proper network interface, too 00:10:37 You can't really do much with that if you have 128 octets of RAM or less. 00:11:21 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:11:44 i think a guy at my old job made a webserver on an 8-bit microcontroller in about 32k (he had to make the tcp/ip too) 00:14:06 btw, has anyone here worked with web crawling in CL? 00:14:42 i made an epoll webclient for a customer once 00:14:58 tpd2 has a simple http client in it 00:16:21 downloading data isn't a problem - parsing it is more of a one... it would be interesting if I could bring CL as part of my toolbox to help me get the job :) 00:16:50 amblerc [n=user@24-180-81-97.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:17:11 I think it would be much more optimized than going with Ruby... 00:17:58 p_l: I think the problem *is* downloading the data. You could use trained pigeons for the rest and it wouldn't matter much. 00:18:34 -!- frobar_ [n=ulf@h-60-171.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit ["leaving"] 00:20:40 Hi, I'm using Clozure-CL on a Mac OSX. Why won't "listener" evaluate this? > (+ 2 2) ; this is a comment 00:21:14 pkhuong: well, maxing out I/O on downloading won't be hard. Parsing all the data to get only what I want seems tougher (especially due to malformed HTML, or even well formed HTML that isn' XHTML) 00:21:25 it evaluates (+ 2 2), but when I add that comment line and press enter, it just creates a new line 00:21:57 p_l: in terms of complexity, sure, but not wrt runtime. 00:22:09 don't put a comment, clearly 00:22:47 but according the book I'm reading, it should compute 4, with or without the comment 00:22:57 pkhuong: well, there comes my educated guess (in flames ;-) ) 00:23:16 tseug: Is this in the CCL IDE? 00:23:48 No, I use Terminal or SLIME 00:23:52 p_l: run wget. How much user time is it taking? 00:24:17 this is in CCL version 0.1 00:24:21 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p2221-ipngn101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Instain to the do way"] 00:24:34 0.1? oh boy 00:24:39 tseug: How are you running CCL? 00:25:05 stassats: I think it's actually just misreporting the version number ... it's like svn trunk. 00:25:21 pkhuong: Well, then comes the argument from coding perspective - I'd prefer to do it in CL than Ruby :) 00:25:41 How? I'm not sure what you mean. Downloaded a program called Clozure CL-x8664. When I open it, a window called "Listener" comes up with a prompt 00:26:00 tseug: My guess is you're running the OS X ClozureCL.app ... sounds like an IDE bug ... the IDE is still very alpha. 00:26:04 Yeah, that's the IDE. 00:26:29 check #ccl for help, and maybe submit a bug at http://ccl.clozure.com/ 00:26:30 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:26:41 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 00:27:46 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has quit [] 00:28:12 p_l: closure-html works quite well for HTML parsing. 00:29:00 drewc: Yeah, I'm thinking of using it as the parser library (I'm thinking of making some wrapper to extracting data in nice way) 00:29:30 p_l: what's wrong with DOM or even better cxml-stp? 00:29:47 drewc: malformed input. 00:29:50 I see the same issue when I load the Cocoa app 00:29:55 pkhuong: soo closure-html 00:29:58 see* 00:30:30 *drewc* does this everyday with random poorly-formed html and has not ad any real problems 00:30:41 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:30:51 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 00:31:24 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:31:54 HTML is natural language :) 00:32:52 drewc: think of set of shorthands to cxml interfaces :) 00:33:22 though it might end not being necessary (though a point in claiming higher salary? :P) 00:36:29 p_l: the relevant utility functions to do all i need to do with cxml-dom were about 50 lines of code or so... hardly wha i'd call a wrapper. I'd suggest learning to use the wheel before attempting to better it :) 00:36:35 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-46-105.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:37:30 drewc: I guess I'm just not used to it yet :) 00:37:56 drewc: And itching to play with weird methods :-) 00:38:16 fair 'nuff 00:38:40 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-24-137.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:38:55 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 00:40:57 -!- ausente is now known as aleister_crowley 00:44:06 -!- dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:45:55 How do I run a lisp prompt like "Listener" on a terminal? 00:46:39 e.g., to open up a Python prompt in the terminal, I'd just type $ python 00:48:05 tseug: depends on your Lisp. But in SBCL, type 'sbcl' 00:48:23 CLISP is called 'clisp'. 00:48:37 Allegro Common Lisp is 'alisp' 00:48:42 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-62-164.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["« La POO c'est bien beau, mais en C au moins on va droit au but. »"] 00:48:46 (or 'mlisp' if you're a deviant. 00:48:47 ) 00:49:09 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-7-203.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:49:39 tseug: and, just for completeness, cmucl is called 'lisp' :) 00:49:46 for CCL, go to the ccl/scripts directory, then run ./ccl or ./ccl64 00:51:45 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 00:52:00 I tried typing ./ccl64 in the /ccl/scripts directory, but I get this error message: Can't find CCL directory. Please edit ./ccl64 or set the environment variable CCL_DEFAULT_DIRECTORY and try again. 00:52:26 (similarly for ./ccl) 00:53:04 you need to 'export CCL_DEFAULT_DIRECTORY=" Sorry, how do I do this? 00:54:30 where is your ccl directory? 00:54:37 In applications folder 00:55:09 I'm there now in the terminal 00:56:31 OK, the command would be 'export CCL_DEFAULT_DIRECTORY='/Applications/ccl/" 00:56:34 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-46-105.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:56:59 -!- faux` [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:57:25 There's a missing double quotation mark somewhere in there? 00:57:59 sorry, here is the line: 00:58:15 export CCL_DEFAULT_DIRECTORY="/Applications/ccl/" 00:58:23 my bad. 00:58:52 it works!! 00:58:56 thanks amblerc 00:59:08 What's the difference between ./ccl and ./ccl64? 00:59:22 Now, padawan put the export line in your .profile in your home directory. 00:59:46 ccl is 32 bit, and ccl64 is 64 bit 01:00:14 If you have it in your .profile Terminal will automaticallys set it when you start it up 01:01:43 "put the export line in my .profile in home directory?" I do this the same way I exported into /Applications/ccl/? 01:01:51 yessir 01:02:20 What's my .profile? 01:02:23 export sets an environment variable for the terminal session. CCL uses it to figure out where all the binaries and libraries are 01:02:29 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:02:45 it is a file in your home directory name '.profile' 01:03:39 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:04:31 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 01:04:32 how do I exit out of the lisp prompt in terminal? ctrl+c doesn't work 01:04:45 use (quit) 01:04:52 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 01:04:57 tseug: usually C-d (that means Control-D). Or (quit) 01:05:37 But C-d isn't very lispy, is it? :-D 01:06:07 Unless you are using emacs, then C- whatever is a way of life. 01:06:11 amblerc: Well, it's no LispM he is running on :-P 01:06:53 Hmm, I don't think C-d would work on a LispM :-) 01:07:02 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:07:02 it is VERY unixy 01:07:04 ok, so to put the export line in my .profile in home directory, I just type: export CCL_DEFAULT_DIRECTORY="/Jack" 01:08:03 The '.profile' file is in your home directory, but the VALUE of the CCL_DEFAULT_DIRECTORY is whatever the path to your ccl directory is. 01:08:07 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@84.131.173.253] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:08:31 So, you export line is correct if the CCL directory is in "/Jack" 01:08:43 but I think you said is was in "/Applications/ccl" 01:08:51 the ccl directory is in /applications 01:08:53 Yes 01:08:54 echo 'export CCL_DEFAULT_DIRECTORY="/Applications/ccl"' >>~/.profile 01:09:04 BINGO! 01:09:16 What? 01:09:30 amblerc: quick, go back to base, not much fuel remaining! 01:09:48 tseug: that was a ready-made line to paste into Terminal that will take care of your problems... probably 01:09:58 ahh, one moment. 01:10:17 p_l: is correct 01:10:41 OK, I've entered it. Nothing happened. 01:10:57 tseug: close terminal, open it again 01:11:06 *close*, not minimize 01:11:13 yes 01:11:20 did 01:11:26 command-Q and everything. 01:11:42 Yes, now? 01:11:43 now, type /Applications/ccl/scripts/ccl 01:11:51 or ccl64 01:11:57 *p_l* returns to reading a story where Pope excommunicates God, Hell gets overrun by humans and Jesus gets high on grass with Archangel Michael. A little craziness helps :3 01:12:15 *younder* notes that his cable modem is suddenly clocking 20 Mb/s! 01:12:18 :-) 01:12:19 ah, so I can just type that to open up the lisp prompt now? 01:12:28 yes 01:13:40 If you change p_l's echo line slightly to: 01:14:00 it works, the comment line and all! 01:14:11 echo 'export PATH=$PATH:/Applications/ccl/scripts' >> ~/.profile 01:14:32 the next time you start Terminal you should be able to just type 'ccl' to get it to execute. 01:14:46 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 01:14:49 amblerc: echo 'export PATH=$PATH:/Applications/ccl/scripts' >>~/.profile 01:14:59 space between redirection and filename sometimes gets tricky 01:15:19 good point. 01:15:42 it works!!!!!!!! 01:16:11 Excellent. Our Evil Plot for World Domination continues! 01:16:20 Merci beaucoup 01:16:44 hth. thanks p_l. 01:17:16 so now I don't need to mess with Listener anymore 01:17:17 I still recommend looking at emacs and SLIME (Aquamacs for OSX is pretty good) 01:17:31 SLIME comes with emacs? 01:17:34 yes 01:17:50 Why should I use SLIME? 01:18:18 and how do I use SLIME 01:19:12 but you can also get it directly from CVS. Look at http://trac.clozure.com/openmcl/wiki/InstallingSlime 01:19:23 -!- pjb` [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:19:36 I already have Aquamacs, so I wouldn't need to install SLIME, right? 01:19:38 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-30-105.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:20:09 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:20:25 Yes, but people frequently use the CVS version because it is updated frequently. 01:21:18 SLIME is included with Emacs? First time hearing that... 01:21:30 it is in Aquamacs emacs for OSX 01:21:38 oh righ 01:21:41 *right 01:21:42 but ordinarily, no. 01:22:55 tseug: you might want to familiarise yourself with clbuild, too. It makes it a little easier to get the libs, especially before you get better in it. Also get some better Unix skills, they are bare minimum for any real development work :) 01:23:03 (even hobbyist one) 01:23:07 I type this in the terminal but get a "command not found" error: cvs -d :pserver:anonymous:anonymous@common-lisp.net:/project/slime/cvsroot co slime 01:23:17 tseug: you don't have cvs installed 01:23:42 tseug: Google 'SLIME' and look at the docs on the SLIME project page. It basically is a complete Common Lisp IDE for emacs. 01:24:17 Syntax highlighting, function lookup, interactive debugging, CL Hyperspec access, etc. 01:25:21 tseug: I missed a lot of the conversation, but I agree that SLIME is the nicest way to develop code. 01:25:45 tseug: you can always grab a tarball snapshot until you get CVS working on your mac. 01:26:46 So do I need to install SLIME or CVS? 01:26:47 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:26:56 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 01:27:36 1) you can probably get away with the built-in SLIME in Aquamacs for now. 01:27:54 2) You have to download SLIME for the latest and greatest from the developers. 01:28:03 I'd say to just grab the latest SLIME release tarball, but it's probably old enough to vote in some juristictions. 01:28:18 3) CVS is the program you would use to automatically update your SLIME installation if you wanted to go that way 01:28:27 :-) 01:29:18 OK I'm at this site : http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/ . I download CVS by downloading the "CVS snapshot"? 01:29:27 tseug: are you using FINK or darwinports/ 01:29:49 I don't know. 01:29:56 I'd guess darwinports, sounds familiar.. 01:30:43 You can get the SLIME tarball from the link you listed 01:31:07 I just asked about Fink or darwinports because they can download and install cvs for you. 01:32:22 the .tgz file, right? 01:32:27 Yes 01:32:37 aka, CVS snapshot 01:33:11 You can also get CVS by installing the XCode tools from apple. 01:33:32 yeah, it is a gzipped tar file snapshot 01:35:00 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:35:46 I have the slime folder and just placed it into /Applications directory. Now what? 01:37:31 The installation instructions on the Clozure or SLIME sites pretty much walk you through it. 01:38:38 You basically add a few lines to your '.emacs' init file, then type M-x slime in emacs to start it 01:39:03 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:19 *fusss* is down with the flu :-S 01:39:52 that's what you get for licking pigs. 01:40:50 it wasn't my intention, it was my best friend's pig and i blame it on the rock, blame it on the henney, blame it on the a'a'a'alcohol 01:41:47 how do I find out what lisp system I'm using? 01:42:01 It is CCL 01:42:13 tseug: (lisp-implementation-type) 01:43:27 In the manual it says "With a Lisp implementation that can be started from the command-line, installation just 01:43:28 requires a few lines in your .emacs:" This means I have to use the command line in Aquamacs? Or can I just use the lisp prompt in the terminal? 01:44:53 You can always use ccl directly from Terminal, but if you want to use the SLIME IDE you need set up your emacs configuration file to tell it about ccl. 01:46:17 OK, reading the README, it says "Add this to your ~/.emacs file" How do I do this? : echo 'export PATH=$PATH:/Applications/slime-2009-05-25' >>~/.emacs 01:46:19 tseug: are you trying to install slime? 01:46:32 fusss, yes, I think. 01:46:56 .emacs is NOT a shell-script file, it expects emacs lisp forms 01:48:07 from emacs, use C-X C-F and open ~/.emacs 01:48:18 past in this: 01:48:24 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:48:44 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:59 (setq inferior-lisp-program "~/ccl/scripts/ccl") 01:49:05 i'm going to go over to #emacs and #unix and ask for common lisp support... i wonder how well it would go? :D 01:49:33 except, your path is "/Applications/ccl/scripts/ccl" 01:50:18 when I do C-X C-F, then enter ./emacs, I get a new empty buffer tab called .emacs 01:50:26 drewc: Let me know how that goes for you :-D 01:50:56 great. now put (setq inferior-lisp-program "Applications/ccl/scripts/ccl") 01:50:59 in it 01:51:04 and save it 01:51:57 Now? 01:52:05 also see if clozure takes an initialization file argument and put in a dummy init file. customization comes handy when you need to stuff things into asdf:*central-registry* without having to maintain a good package management policy ;-) 01:52:05 tseug: first, i'd suggest doing 'C-h t' .. 01:52:24 ? I already saved it 01:52:28 quit and re-open aquamacs, then type M-X slime 01:52:32 Oh, that's the tutorial, right? 01:52:32 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-237-248.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 01:52:42 yeah. 01:52:54 what is the M, again? 01:52:57 alt? 01:53:02 yes 01:53:02 fusss pasted "slime basic setup in .emacs" at http://paste.lisp.org/+1QCZ 01:53:23 tseug: indeed .. it's a lot easier to learn emacs from the tutorial then #lisp, and i'm not going to allow all that much basic emacs questions here. 01:53:43 s/much/many 01:53:55 -!- Axioplase_ [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit ["brb"] 01:54:02 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-237-248.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 01:54:14 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-237-248.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 01:54:21 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:54:24 I think the documentation on the SLIME and Clozure Common Lisp sites for setting up SLIME are pretty good, anyway. 01:54:28 amblerc, says [no match] 01:54:31 lisppaste is not here? 01:54:31 tseug: a more complete setup might be here as well http://paste.lisp.org/+1QCZ 01:54:40 lisppaste: url? 01:54:40 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 01:55:31 *fusss* started using LispIDE today, instead of emacs for those hours when i'm hacking on laptop battery 01:55:54 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 01:57:01 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:57:03 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 01:57:08 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 01:57:47 srcerer_ [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 02:00:44 *drewc* has been using clim-desktop, but still keeps an emacs attached to it. 02:02:39 tseug annotated #80819 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/+1QCZ#1 02:03:09 I have this in my .emacs file: http://paste.lisp.org/display/80819#1 02:03:10 -!- nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 02:03:25 yet aquamacs cannot find slime 02:04:18 Does it really matter whether I use ccl or ccl64? 02:04:33 not really. 02:04:38 -!- Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 02:04:54 tseug: i'm not a osx user, but using an absolute path there couldn't hurt. 02:06:16 True, my SLIME was not happy until I used an absolute path for my ccl. 02:06:28 drewc: duh. slime is not a binary in your $PATH; absolute paths would be, uh, kinda necessary. 02:07:05 Oh it workssss!!!!! 02:07:33 tseug: Happy Hacking. 02:07:40 fusss: OSX could have some magic i don't know about involving pathname resolution, what do i know :) 02:08:13 you're talking to a lisper here.. there is nothing portable about pathnames and nothing should ever be assumed :D 02:08:22 :drewc No magic here, just bsd under the covers. 02:08:26 in OS X slime greets you "take this repl brother, and shove it" 02:08:37 JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:54 :fuss Now, now, kids. Play nice. 02:09:13 so I always have to type M-x slime, to start slime in aquamacs? 02:09:16 s/fuss/fusss/ 02:09:22 yeah. 02:09:36 Otherwise, How would emacs know? :-) 02:09:40 drewc: i used it for roughly 48 hours before it died on me. I bought a G3 imac off of craigslist, the translucent one what has the cpu built into the monitor. 02:10:19 wow, OSX will run on hardware that old? 02:10:34 nothing surprising there, except the menu bar which is allot like emacs'; each new application adds its own menu, just like a major mode 02:10:37 10.3, 10.4 if you're patient. 02:10:42 tseug annotated #80819 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/+1QCZ#2 02:10:44 *drewc* saw one of those in the trash the other day.... 02:11:09 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-123.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:11:16 drewc: yes, i got Panther CDs with it and the apple store geeks gave me a few goodies 02:11:18 SLIME works nicely so far, when I try (+2 2), for example. But I get some kind of error in another buffer (see link) 02:11:29 Is that error important? 02:12:14 that error comes up in a partitioned buffer right after I type M-x slime 02:12:28 tseug: that's a restart, it's asking you what to read it and type the number you see works for you best 02:12:58 what is a partitioned buffer? I didn't know you could run fdisk on emacs buffers. 02:13:18 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:14:03 I don't know. two disjoint buffers in a larger buffer? 02:14:18 So, I can just ignore that buffer, than? 02:14:20 then* 02:14:36 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:14:38 C-x 2 is a partitioned buffer 02:14:53 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:37 beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-105-63.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:17:38 using a relative path in OSX doesn't work, for whatever reason. 02:17:51 tseug: You can just try (slime-setup) with no arguements to see if it is an option problem. 02:18:09 when I setup clozure on my laptop, I ran into that problem, and got around it by specifying the canon path. 02:19:31 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279632405.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:19:49 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@209-161-237-128.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 02:20:11 tseug: try setting your paths to "/Applications..." instead of "Applications..." 02:23:38 -!- amblerc [n=user@24-180-81-97.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com] has quit ["Going offline... Work tomorrow."] 02:23:54 Fade pasted "slime/clbuild setup /w clozure on OSX" at http://paste.lisp.org/+1QD4 02:23:59 amblerc, I did that. When I tried it without the slash emacs wouldn't recognize slime. 02:24:12 that's the .emacs fragment I use to start slime /w clozure on OSX 02:24:20 well, to load slime into my emacs 02:25:17 although I'm using a clbuild image, so you probably can't use that fragment without change. 02:25:26 but you do need to use absolute paths. 02:25:36 Right 02:26:08 tseug: get the emacs cheet-sheat from GNU's website; comes handy 02:26:17 beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-38-75.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:26:22 fusss, already got it, if you mean the manual 02:26:50 cheat-sheet is 4 pages only 02:27:04 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 02:27:09 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["DON'T PANIC"] 02:27:57 I found some cheat sheets on Google, but none form the GNU site... can I get a link? 02:29:23 What's the difference between lisp and 'inferior' lisp? 02:30:50 http://home.uchicago.edu/~gan/file/emacs.pdf It's called "reference card", it's officially from GNU but they only distribute it as texinfo, not PDF or another useful format 02:30:55 tseug: try /msg fsbot categoryreferencesheet 02:31:32 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 02:31:33 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:31:45 -!- beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-24-137.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:32:19 tseug: "inferior lisp" is not an actual lisp at all. Emacs runs external programs on your behalf and you can interact with them using the emacs interface. this includes programming languages, computer math packages and shells. it calls the external program "inferrior process", and when that program is a Lisp, well, it's "inferior lisp". 02:32:39 SLIME is a play on words, it's an acronym for Superior Lisp Interaction Mode :-) 02:33:09 Thanks. That reference sheet will be very useful 02:34:18 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-173-208.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:33 trivia: I bought the GNU Emacs manual second hand, the 1988 printing by hewlet packard, and in it I found a pristine Unix Barf Bag left as a bookmark, or perhaps a present. my second barf bag! ;-) 02:34:34 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-237-248.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:40:30 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@e244075.upc-e.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:41:29 -!- beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-105-63.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:42:31 TekLok [n=TekLok@c-98-247-9-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:27 panzer`kunzt [n=nonamme@cpe-74-64-125-220.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:47:37 w00t!!! 02:47:55 a be chillin 02:49:50 anybody read /. article about the fastest web server on earth lisp knitted? 02:51:47 the article only has 50 comments :( 02:52:39 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c121h014.wless.reed.edu] has joined #lisp 02:52:39 panzer`kunzt: link? 02:53:05 wow interesting, the comments aren't one-liners, they are freaking essays!! 02:53:32 yeah......looks pretty cool. I'll have to try it and see if it's easier to use than weblocks :-) 02:53:58 hey guys 02:54:00 it's my server 02:54:19 slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/25/1553220http://tech. 02:54:36 http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/25/1553220 02:55:07 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c121h014.wless.reed.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 02:55:29 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-76-122-37-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["I'm off!"] 02:56:36 *panzer`kunzt* shudders at the thought of attempting using apache bloat 02:56:59 ilitirit: wait, you wrote that app??!! 02:59:37 +1 john 03:02:03 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:02:46 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-100-68.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:06:03 -!- klausi [n=klausi@92.193.92.137] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:13:11 kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-66-68-183-235.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:13:13 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:13:18 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:21 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 03:13:24 what does it mean when a variable name is surrounded by question marks? like "?OPER?". any ideas? 03:14:11 is it an iterator? 03:16:08 it means time to grep for it 03:16:18 it's not defined any where 03:16:28 might be generated 03:16:34 what are you looking at? 03:16:42 old professor's code. :( uncommented. "elegant". 03:16:47 what would "generated" mean? 03:17:05 if it were, for example, a prolog compiler 03:17:16 (it has no value, that's why lisp is complaining about ?OPER? having no value) 03:17:17 it might define functions as part of the compiler 03:17:19 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-123.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:33 it's a variable that makes sense within the definition of the various data structures being used 03:17:41 so it's not some preprocessor stuff 03:18:55 interesting 03:19:02 unfortunate there are no comments 03:19:12 what am I to do? 03:19:23 run it and see what happens? 03:19:30 it fails because ?OPER? has no value 03:20:25 and it appears in the code or not? 03:20:39 yes, it does appear 03:20:44 mqt [n=tran@c-66-41-46-222.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:47 it may indicate that it is an operator 03:21:53 something to be substituted 03:22:04 (this is without knowing what the program itself is) 03:22:13 JAS415: http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/equer.lisp 03:22:19 the OPER variable represents a number or something 03:22:28 because later it is used as the first parameter to (nth) 03:22:39 kanzure: is this in a logic-programming library? say, a backward chaining inference engine? something crappy AI related? 03:22:51 yes, crappy AI related :) 03:23:10 it's an automated design program thingy 03:23:19 in particular for extracting symbolic equations of a mechanical design assembly 03:23:36 It's an old lisp convention to designate prolog-type variables in Lisp 03:23:51 oh 03:23:54 so it is prolog 03:23:55 do I have to go learn prolog too? 03:24:21 where prolog uses an uppercase first character to designate a variable that ranges over a matching type (my description is horrible here, btw) Lispers used ?foo, because Lisp is case insensitive 03:24:22 what does that mean? 03:24:39 what? 03:24:44 so does ?OPER match ?oper 03:24:56 is this like a regexp way of specifying possible variable names 03:24:57 hmm. trying to build teepeedee in sbcl, and it fails on not finding the 'backtrace-string symbol in the trivial-backtrace package 03:25:09 backwards compatility issue? 03:25:23 you don't have to learn anything, the source you pasted doesn't use an outside library from what I see, and you're free to tree ?foo? as just another lisp symbol; nothing unique 03:25:56 fusss: then why wasn't it defined in that first make-behavioral-equations2 function? 03:26:05 it also was not defined in the included file 03:27:19 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 03:27:56 hmmmm, the file is supposed to be loaded after another file 03:28:05 what Lisp are you using at school? 03:28:25 I'm running this in clisp, but I have no idea what ancient thingy the professor was using 03:28:28 ilitirit: you here still? 03:28:33 this is lab work, so it's not quite school related 03:28:40 er, lab-not-for-credit-work. 03:29:27 kanzure: if the code works with the lisp at the lab, they have a package loaded that you might not have at home 03:29:45 it doesn't work at the lab. 03:29:48 it hasn't worked in a decade. 03:29:54 this is my archaeological mission of sorts. 03:31:25 google the package specific symbols 03:31:31 huh? 03:31:37 [?oper?] isn't turning up much for me 03:31:38 google doesn't preserve special characters in the queries 03:31:49 does [] mean to keep special characters in the query? 03:31:53 looks like you're supposed to edit the file with your problem data 03:32:04 including the ?oper?, which you would replace with the right value. 03:32:13 that doesn't make sense. 03:32:22 elsewhere, you edit the problem data, sure 03:32:30 but here, it just recurses through the graph and looks at the operators 03:32:31 ?oper? is only used with extract-eq 03:32:57 fusss: no, it's used in a call to extract-eq, just above a comment that says " ; this is where you put your symbolic equation that you've created" 03:33:22 actually 03:33:26 oh, so /that/ is what comments are for. hmmm :-S 03:33:39 in the "eb" structure, 03:33:40 unless "you" means the program. 03:33:41 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:33:46 there is a variable called "opers" 03:35:32 hi aggieben back from eating, i'm going to fix a few of the worst bugs in tpd2 now i hope 03:36:07 http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/Embodiments.2009.05.13.lisp is this the file that goes with it? 03:36:28 there are many other files that go with it. there is a zip file in that directory. 03:36:41 http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/adesign-edited.zip 03:36:49 (4.4 MB, but it's a university connection, so it shouldn't take long) 03:37:12 initweigh.lisp is the included file, so that's the one to look at I guess 03:37:46 kanzure: that directory up there is the most hardcore personal science library i seen in a while. 03:38:07 fusss: that's not my personal directory. 03:38:28 try this: http://sata.serveftp.org/~bryan/papers/ 03:38:29 panzer`kunzt: That blog gizmo is nice 03:41:39 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:41:46 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:42:18 ssttss [n=sissy@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 03:43:07 Can someone tell a joke? 03:44:00 Sure 03:44:31 What did the mathematician say happened when his parrot died? 03:44:50 null existence failure? 03:44:54 "polynomial, polygon." 03:45:54 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has left #lisp 03:47:56 tseug: Hahaha, thank you sir. 03:48:17 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 03:51:28 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.36] has joined #lisp 03:58:40 dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-154-193.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:13 -!- beach```` is now known as beach 04:01:29 Good morning. 04:03:59 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-123.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:12:09 beach: re (mostly) in-place radix sqrt(n) FFT, wouldn't Gentleman & Sande's approach (reshape the vector in a rectangular matrix, FFT on rows, transpose & scale, FFT on rows again) work? 04:12:56 pkhuong: Sounds plausible yes. 04:13:20 pkhuong: Transposing is nontrivial though. 04:13:29 non-trivial, but well studied. 04:13:44 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:13:50 pkhuong: Yes, I have heard that this work has been published. 04:13:57 but I haven't read it. 04:14:43 I just grabbed a scan off the acm, . We'll see. 04:16:18 pkhuong: OK, I don't have time to read that right now, but I'll keep the reference. 04:20:58 Morning, Lispers. 04:21:09 hello tic 04:23:48 SBCL on OMAP3 (ARM, I suppose?), is it working? 04:24:06 -!- srcerer_ is now known as srcerer 04:24:26 doubtful, unless nyef recently had a day of maniacal productivity. 04:24:42 *nod* alright. drooling at the new Nokia tablet here... 04:24:54 (as it now has a decent amount of RAM) 04:31:45 aggieben, sorry for the delay here's some info on using tpd2 http://john.freml.in/teepeedee2-using 04:33:12 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:35:00 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-149-27.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:35:58 oconnore [n=oconnore@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:24 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-69-7.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:36:44 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-38-75.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:36:49 -!- beach` is now known as beach 04:41:51 well that's annoying, now that I fixed the comments so that they work properly the comment flood has stopped 04:41:52 doh 04:42:10 -!- newerspeak [n=newerspe@cpe-098-026-093-235.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 04:42:24 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:37 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.36] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:42:42 ilitirit: this sounds very interesting. i did wonder before, why hunchentoot allegedly had so bad performance 04:42:59 but i guess it's just a matter of preference and has nothing to do with the language itself 04:43:25 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-180-10-138.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:01 it's very difficult to get decent performance out of lisp if you have to keep converting strings to and from utf-8 04:45:31 that's the main culprit? 04:55:32 well there are other problems too 04:55:44 i think hunchentoot has one thread per request (not sure), which will surely kill performance 04:57:58 -!- tsuru` [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:00:35 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:03:08 so I don't know if there was any consensus on how to deal with ?OPER? in that script 05:03:11 :/ 05:05:58 FareWell [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:12 ilitirit: true 05:06:47 *FareWell* is approaching a new pre-release of XCVB -- hopefully before interns come to use it... 05:07:02 oh well. maybe i should just take my own stab at the alleged problem. or would you be willing to blog more about it so i don't have to? ;) 05:07:19 c|mell [n=cmell@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:08:03 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.53.19] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:08:11 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.193.200] has joined #lisp 05:08:17 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:45 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:49 guaqua, what alleged problem? hunchentoot performance? 05:09:43 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit ["Disconnecting from stoned server."] 05:10:15 -!- bdowning_ is now known as bdowning 05:10:21 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:37 ilitirit: generally serving web pages with lisp 05:11:54 drafael [n=tapio@130.216.92.191] has joined #lisp 05:13:43 guaqua, why is it a problem? there are lots and lots of webservers in lisp 05:14:23 nevermind 05:17:22 newerspeak [n=newerspe@cpe-098-026-093-235.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:17:39 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@209-161-237-128.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 05:19:58 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:24:37 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:25:40 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["Off"] 05:26:45 -!- jlf [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:28:23 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:28:46 -!- FareWell [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:30:21 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 05:31:41 anyone interested in helping me solve some design issues with a window stream for a repl? I need to hear a voice of reason. 05:32:07 -!- ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 05:33:43 manic12: It depends. Try us! 05:33:43 it works but it's so poorly constructed that I have to rewrite it 05:34:20 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:34:57 i have a couple of interrelated questions, the first is, gray streams or [not-so]simple-streams 05:36:18 -!- dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-154-193.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:36:19 portability is not super high on my agenda right now, so aside from that, I'm trying to figure out what type of stream to start with 05:36:22 manic12: Could you give a bit more context? Are you re-implementing something like CLIM stream panes? 05:37:26 ok, it's in ACL on Windows and it uses the Franz win package with no common graphics 05:37:29 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 05:38:16 -!- drafael [n=tapio@130.216.92.191] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:38:46 it uses opengl with a redisplay protocol, i.e. WM_PAINT message 05:39:54 do clim stream panes have a separate history buffer from input/output buffers? 05:40:30 or is it an extension of the output buffer? 05:40:58 manic12: It depends on what you mean by "history buffer". They have output records that are used to refresh after exposure events. 05:42:15 the output records, are they kept in the stream output buffer and does that just keep growing and growing? 05:43:23 They are kept in a separate data structure. They keep growing until you either explicitly remove them (there is a protocol for manipulating the output records), or clear the window. 05:43:23 i've been sidetracking myself for about a week now 05:45:21 Ogedei [n=user@ip54508552.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #lisp 05:45:59 fusss [n=chatzill@70.179.113.121] has joined #lisp 05:47:02 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA873.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 05:47:30 so if I print some text to the stream, at what point does it end up in the output record? is there an output buffer of the stream which takes chunks of characters or whatever and feeds them to the output record ? 05:48:53 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-b67a5a78016fd2a3] has joined #lisp 05:48:55 manic12: Yes, if you use Common Lisp output primitives, by default you get an output record per line (as I recall), but you can explicitly ask for new output records, and they nest if you want them to. 05:49:03 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@70.179.113.121] has quit [Client Quit] 05:49:33 so that you can nest selectable items? 05:50:18 manic12: Also for performance reasons, like if you have lots of scrollable output, you might want to move bigger chunks as opposed to individual lines. 05:50:45 i.c. 05:53:30 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-7-203.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:53:42 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["leaving"] 05:54:57 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A196F.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:55:24 right now the way I have it on mine, when the window gets a WM_CHAR message it sticks the character into the input buffer, where the device-read is waiting for return, if you hit return without finishing a lisp form it doesn't read it 05:55:46 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 05:57:41 beach: when will you arrive to Milan ? 05:58:12 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 05:59:50 it uses a franz function read-no-hang-p 06:02:55 who knew that writing a really good lisp listener is so damn hard 06:04:40 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:05:28 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:07:01 rakista [n=rakista@c-71-59-128-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:09:48 -!- Ogedei [n=user@ip54508552.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:10:07 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.18] has quit ["Valete!"] 06:10:55 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:12:49 dys` [n=andreas@p5B314D62.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:51 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 06:18:57 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B314FC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:19:05 hello 06:24:13 -!- aggieben [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:24:14 aggieben [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 06:24:14 gmlk [n=gmlk@alicia.demon.nl] has joined #lisp 06:24:45 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 06:28:40 minion: memo for fe[nl]ix: I will arrive tonight (tusday) at around 21:00 at the Linate airport. 06:28:41 Remembered. I'll tell fe[nl]ix when he/she/it next speaks. 06:29:20 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 06:30:02 ASau [n=user@host126-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:30:48 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:31:10 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 06:31:41 oudeis [n=oudeis@93-172-66-96.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 06:33:43 where else can I find sources to gui lisp listeners? 06:34:05 beach, have fun! 06:34:16 tic: Thanks! 06:34:38 manic12: I assume you know about hefner's listener, right? 06:36:14 no 06:36:27 mcclim? 06:36:48 yeah 06:37:18 *tic* hopes to get good reports from ELS.o 06:38:20 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:40:50 Anyone here used CUSP ? 06:41:08 what is it? 06:42:30 http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/library/os-eclipse-lispcusp/index.html 06:42:42 It is a plugin to allow dev in Eclipse 06:42:54 I am sick of Emacs 06:43:21 dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-154-193.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:20 rakista: Why is that? 06:44:58 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 06:45:18 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:45:47 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBA7CE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:45:51 I have carpal and the key presses are not friendly for long periods of text editing 06:46:33 I like using a mouse to mix it up, if I use emcacs it seems to kill my wrists after about 3-4 hours but I can program for 8-10 hours with a mouse and kb 06:46:40 rakista: I don't have a problem. I put my control key to the left of the A, and I never use the Meta key, and instead C-[ prefix. 06:47:22 I got overwhelmed with mcclim and went back to ordinary windows programming 06:47:36 better yet is control to left of space, liek on a SK keyboard. 06:47:46 I am going to install it and see how it works across multiple monitors 06:47:50 That is how I do C++ 06:48:22 I have Dvorak but it slows me down to 20 wpm 06:48:42 Dvorak gives me ~100wpm. :) 06:48:57 i had started a backend for mcclim/windows/opengl but didn't get very far 06:49:09 I think it'd be a good thing to start using if you have RSI. my wrists start hurting on qwerty. 06:49:19 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:49:20 I do 60 on qwerty enough for me 06:49:45 -!- H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBA7CE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 06:49:46 manic12 are you in uni ? 06:49:51 no 06:49:58 It is a lot easier to have people to bounce ideas off of 06:50:09 The lone programmer is a myth heh 06:51:19 even when i was in college though, i was the only lisp programmer 06:51:48 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:52:30 yeah, I only have two projects in LISP 06:52:38 rakista: you can easily customize emacs' bindings 06:53:07 spend all your time customizing all your computers 06:53:22 I know I still prefer highlighting with a mouse 06:53:39 i rather spend time customizing than change profession, manic12 06:53:42 It is simple and predictable 06:53:43 dunno about you 06:54:38 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:55:02 i'm still trying to track down H4ns to make me one of those interfaces for the symbolic keyboard to usb 06:55:05 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:22 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-76-122-37-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:44 i hate days when i get nothing done. 06:56:03 today has been one of those days 06:57:31 CUSP is slick I already like it 06:57:51 Death to the CLI 06:58:12 beach, let me ask this question, do you think it is easier to make a back end for mcclim to run hefner's listener or is it just simpler to write a more vertical listener directly on what i'm using? 06:58:35 in the long run 06:59:37 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:59:53 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 07:00:23 first I was mired in font issues, then it became an issue with windows messages vs. clim's event system 07:01:02 it was so much easier to just "fake-it", but obviously that has reached it's growth potential 07:02:48 i got to output records when hefner told me i was doing it wrong so i gave up 07:02:52 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA873.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:03:25 Damn CUSP plugin crashed lol 07:03:34 *rakista* shakes fist 07:05:27 beach must be on his way to the airport 07:06:18 pjb [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has joined #lisp 07:07:07 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 07:08:55 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 07:08:59 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 07:10:45 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:35 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:16:11 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:16:51 Is anyone awake in here? 07:17:06 I just had an interesting idea and need to bounce it off somebody. 07:17:13 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:22 I'm really trying to stay awake, but work is pretty uneventful at the moment... 07:18:24 Central Europe? 07:18:46 or are you just very dedicated? =) 07:18:51 tic: how long have you been using Dvorak ? Does it take much time to learn ? 07:19:06 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:19:24 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:34 manic12: not wrong, just the hard way. 07:19:38 I'm thinking of putting together some Mnemosyne cues for learning Common Lisp 07:19:55 understandable, though, jumping in the deep end. 07:20:07 mega1 [n=mega@3e44a372.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:20:12 MrSpec: I'm using Colemak and it took me 3-4 weeks to get comfortable with it ... if that helps 07:20:32 MrSpec, took me a few months to get up to speeed. been using it for 10 years now. 07:20:35 hefner, give me your $0.02 then 07:20:44 adityo [n=adityo@122.169.27.241] has joined #lisp 07:20:46 sorry, I'm flat broke. 07:20:46 http://www.mnemosyne-proj.org/ 07:20:56 Colemak? I havent heard about it 07:21:14 hmm ok, my holidays are coming, I'll try it :D 07:21:17 http://colemak.com/ 07:21:26 blandest: thx, I've found it ;d 07:21:48 it's important that you resist switching back to QWERTY :) 07:21:52 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:22:03 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.100.172] has joined #lisp 07:22:06 hehe, yeah 07:22:45 and I'm trying to compile a list of "either-or" situations in the language... 07:22:52 eh, g2g to Uni, bbl 07:22:55 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB"] 07:23:29 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-123.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:32 analogous to "differentiate between ++i and i++" in C-like languages. 07:23:33 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.36] has joined #lisp 07:23:59 does anyone have any idea if something like that already exists? 07:24:19 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:24:24 (am I even making sense?) 07:24:30 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 07:27:35 seriously hefner, what approach would you take? 07:28:03 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:28:25 newerspeak: you mean "confusing situations" ? :) 07:28:28 ++i is what, increment i then use it's value? 07:28:47 and i++ is use i then increment? 07:29:17 manic12: it would depend on the reason I was writing a new lisp listener. 07:29:18 the first would be (incf i) the second would be (prog1 i (incf i)) 07:29:18 benny [n=benny@i577A100D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:29:40 blandest: That or "obligatory exam questions" ;-) 07:29:48 morning 07:30:22 manic12: yes. isn't syntax grand? 07:31:00 there are two essential reasons hefner, the first is because it is fundamentally a graphics application and I don't want the user to alt-tab 07:31:48 the second is because with the repl operating in a thread with an opengl-context, you can test opengl much more easily 07:32:43 -!- blandest is now known as locust 07:33:15 I'm not sure how well I believe the second point, but the first is a good justification for rolling your own. 07:33:35 mcclim is a lot of baggage to haul around if you're only going to use a small piece of it. 07:33:45 right 07:35:11 manic12: what's the difficulty you're having? 07:35:35 the second point may not be of great utility to the end user when it's done, but it sure helps me now during development 07:36:31 the difficulty I'm having is that the technical foundation by which I have built this listener is revealing it's limitations 07:37:11 is there a macro equivalent for FUNCTION? 07:37:19 manic12: specifically? (unsurprisingly, I haven't read your code ;) 07:37:41 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:38:11 output-records/history/scrolling/clipboard/mouse selection 07:38:39 the code is becoming more and more unmanagable 07:39:14 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-25-84.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:40:24 ramus`: macro-function 07:40:41 ramus`: I'm puzzled by your question. What did you think? 07:41:04 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-108-129.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:41:06 oh, that worked. first time i tried it, it returned NIL. no clue why that happened 07:41:21 ramus`: depends on what you mean: a macro which works like function ? a function which returns a macro (what would that mean ?) ? 07:41:36 ramus`: notice that macro-function is an accessor, not a special operator. 07:41:45 -!- dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-154-193.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:42:08 ramus`: therefore: (macro-function (QUOTE my-macro)) 07:42:20 ( no other way to put ' in upper case ;-) ) 07:42:57 manic12: I can see how that could get tangled. 07:44:07 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-129-211.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:13 manic12: if I were trying to keep it simple, I have an input buffer (holding input from the start of the current form), output buffer (both adjustable vectors), a map from output buffer cells to screen coordinates (for text selection), and when repainting the end of the output buffer would be updated to hold the input buffer (just as if you'd printed it) 07:47:50 cycling through history replaces the input buffer contents, selection/clipboard operates entirely on the output buffer 07:47:55 sounds like fun, actually 07:48:15 dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:42 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA7CE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:49:09 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA7CE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 07:49:18 i have it almost like that 07:49:19 heard of double buffereing? 07:50:06 actually I basically have it pretty much like that 07:51:15 ah, well, you probably just need to rewrite it and clean it up then :) 07:51:44 *hefner* can't think any further ahead than that to see other problems without coding some of it 07:51:59 i tag text in the output buffer with gl-name and then when I do the glRenderMode GL_SELECT with the pick matrix, I write a rectangle out just for the purpose of making the text hot 07:53:02 then the "map" is just a hash table from gl-name to the output-record 07:53:14 what's an output record? 07:53:39 it's just an array of a plist and a string 07:54:33 plist has the color and the gl-name and in the future might have the font 07:55:28 but between the output records and the text-wrapping, there are bugs in the scrolling 07:56:43 dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-154-193.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:45 so i guess i need to stop looking for the silver bullet and just try to rewrite a cleaner version 07:57:00 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-69-7.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:57:04 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 07:58:26 for a while I was thinking I might use an interval tree to apply properties to the text in the output buffer, but that is probably unnecessary for something like a listener 07:59:19 or at least i'm hoping so because i'm finding that adding and deleting nodes to interval trees is not as simple as it seems 08:00:20 I wouldn't do anything like that. You'd do better to break the text itself out into a tree. 08:00:32 but if i did use an interval tree, i would only have to add nodes and rotate the tree, not delete 08:00:59 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-180-10-138.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:01:13 ah, that does complicate scrolling and wrapping tho 08:01:17 anyway, line wraping certainly complicates the mapping between characters and screen coordinates, unless you compute it up front and cache it. 08:01:17 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:01:28 manic12: those are complicated anyway :) 08:01:30 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.36] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:01:54 ok, glad i'm not just missing it 08:02:24 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-16-62.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:03:35 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-7-203.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:04:03 I do think my suggestion of an explicit mapping, basically a vector parallel to the text buffer, from characters to rectangles, can make things much simpler. You can fill that, then render from it, and use it for locating selected text / cursor repositioning (instead of the GL spooky GL selection mechanism) 08:04:13 not space efficient, but you can't have everything. 08:04:59 <_3b> its a text buffer, how much space efficiency do you need :p 08:05:08 yeah, exactly. 08:05:45 it wouldn't go in a real text editor, where editing at the top of the buffer would invalidate all the rectangles below it. 08:05:47 could that "parallel vector" do double duty and hold color and font information i suppose? 08:05:54 but you're doing all the editing at the end :) 08:05:59 (near the end, anyway) 08:06:15 hefner, what about line breaking? 08:06:38 It makes the situation look like a real text editor.. 08:07:30 deepfire: that's just a matter of where you display the characters. the function that filled the vector of rectangles determined that, and then you don't need to worry about it unless the window width grows (and you invalidate the whole thing and recompute it). 08:07:37 at this point I want to avoid making "text editor" generalizations for a Listener, since I think that it would add extra complications 08:08:10 maniac: for efficiency reasons, many windows systems throw all attributes in one big structure, the device context 08:08:26 so yes, that maight help 08:08:29 might 08:09:36 I can imagine still simpler ways to do this, but it might make text highlighting very difficult. 08:09:44 hefner, I'm trying to understand what "invalidate the rectangles below" in the real editor case means, then.. 08:10:14 why would i need to use the device context, I can tag the window with the lisp value of the window and use GetWindowLong on hwnd to get it 08:10:58 deepfire: meaning, all the text past the editor point can move, text before it can't move (backward deletion doesn't count). 08:11:24 of course, you can only fit so much on one screen, so you can recompute it lazily. 08:11:38 hefner, but, but, line editing + long, broken lines -> same issues in listener as in real editor, no? 08:12:20 what line editing? I'm not sure we're on the same page. 08:12:50 I'm not sure what the vector parallel to the output buffer is supposed to look like 08:13:36 put a screen coordinate in each position of the parallel vector? 08:13:57 sure 08:14:00 Let's suppose you don't do word line breaking, and delete a character. Then all the text must move one character to the left, except leftmost letters, which get teleported up and to the far right. 08:14:18 "all the text past the cursor" 08:14:23 I wouldn't use real screen coordinates, I'd put the origin at the first character and translate them for display (to accomodate scrolling) 08:15:00 how about put a zero wherever a new line starts 08:15:16 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 08:15:28 (a more space efficient thing would be a vector with an entry for each line of output, indicating the buffer offset where each line starts) 08:15:42 including line breaks, and invalidate all those when the window size changes 08:15:54 -!- mqt [n=tran@c-66-41-46-222.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:16:06 manic12: (0,0) ? 08:16:50 surely you'd want them all in the same coordinate system. 08:16:50 so a vector with size 1+ number-of-newlines 08:17:07 anyway, at this point I'm reinventing well known text editor stuff poorly, so I think I'll go to sleep. 08:17:19 thanks! 08:17:24 *deepfire* is still confused :-) 08:17:40 good night hefner! 08:17:52 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.100.172] has quit ["Log this!"] 08:18:13 deepfire: sorry. imagine you update the cached rectangles by pretending you're printing the buffer to the screen (taking its width into account for the wrapping). 08:18:48 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 08:19:05 hefner, the leftmost line letter teleportation -> cached rect invalidation, no? 08:19:07 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:19:15 (on deletion) 08:20:11 Ok, I see, you too say they need to be updated. 08:20:11 deepfire: I guess. When you recompute, they'll move that way because that's where they naturally fall now that the preceeding character is gone. 08:20:32 Right. 08:21:05 (and it occurs to me just now that you can shortcut the recomputing the first time you recompute a bounding rectangle past the edited region that's the same as what's already cached for that text) 08:21:08 -!- dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-154-193.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:21:53 for fixed fonts? 08:22:05 (surely, in the listener case) 08:22:10 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-78-239.w83-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:22:15 (which is both insuffient for a real text editor and unnecessary for manic12's use case) 08:22:22 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:22:35 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:22:37 no, for proportional fonts too. 08:22:58 good morning 08:23:32 I'm not sure if I'd really write it this way, though. 08:23:36 anyway, zzz. 08:23:48 dwave_ [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 08:25:40 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.100.172] has joined #lisp 08:29:26 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:30:30 elias` [n=me@resnet-pat-254.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:31:15 manic12, do you understand what hefner meant by cached rectangles? I'm thinking aggregate line textures, but that doesn't appear to make sense in this context.. 08:31:25 anyone worked on emergence ? 08:35:44 Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.163.100.172] has joined #lisp 08:36:02 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:36:28 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:44 -!- m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:36:46 -!- Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.163.100.172] has quit [Client Quit] 08:36:48 Except now it does. 08:37:04 m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 08:37:40 -!- bob_f_ is now known as bob_f 08:38:16 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:40:37 ignas [n=ignas@78.59.166.221] has joined #lisp 08:41:24 I have specialized #'print-object on my class (called 'task), but somethimes I just want the default (short output) behaviour when printing. Is it possible ? 08:44:28 -!- aggieben [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:44:52 aggieben_ [n=aggieben@63.246.56.57] has joined #lisp 08:45:00 locust, you choose between the two different styles depending on e.g. *print-pretty* or *print-length* 08:45:05 Should I check if *print-pretty* is not null ? 08:45:21 ilitirit: thanks 08:46:26 *print-pretty* is a generalised boolean, so if i understand your meaning, then yes 08:47:21 _5pitphir3 [n=Spitfire@cpe-71-74-84-48.insight.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:47:58 locust: s/is not null// 08:49:45 Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.163.100.172] has joined #lisp 08:50:30 -!- dwave_ is now known as asksol 08:51:10 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-60.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:51:11 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Success] 08:51:21 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.100.172] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:51:23 -!- Grilinctus is now known as Aankhen`` 08:51:44 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 08:56:26 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-123.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:59:30 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 08:59:32 Phoodus [n=foo@wsip-24-234-246-213.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:54 -!- g06|in [n=Spitfire@cpe-71-74-84-48.insight.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:00:21 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181142102.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:00:57 sbcl hackers aroundp 09:10:03 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:12:15 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:21:44 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 09:22:06 -!- newerspeak [n=newerspe@cpe-098-026-093-235.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 09:29:38 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 09:30:22 nikodemus: yes 09:30:49 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181142102.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:31:10 -!- ken [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:31:48 -!- rakista [n=rakista@c-71-59-128-255.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Rakista has left the planet"] 09:32:41 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-197-143-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:40:01 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 09:40:11 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181142102.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:41:35 jophish [n=jophish@80-47-44-71.lond-hex.dynamic.dial.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 09:44:02 psheldr [n=user@217.13.173.123] has joined #lisp 09:44:27 -!- psheldr [n=user@217.13.173.123] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:48:06 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:48:33 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 09:48:56 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:50:02 thehcdreamer_ [n=thehcdre@81-174-51-17.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 09:51:31 thehcdreamer__ [n=thehcdre@88-149-231-6.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 09:52:14 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 09:54:02 thehcdreamer___ [n=thehcdre@81-174-50-10.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 09:54:12 -!- thehcdreamer___ [n=thehcdre@81-174-50-10.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:57:36 -!- thehcdreamer__ [n=thehcdre@88-149-231-6.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:04:36 HG` [n=wells@xdslgl013.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:04:54 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:07:02 -!- aleister_crowley is now known as dalton 10:07:15 -!- thehcdreamer_ [n=thehcdre@81-174-51-17.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:09:41 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit ["Instain to the do way"] 10:13:42 semyon421 [n=semyon@wifi-1b.itep.ru] has joined #lisp 10:17:40 nikodemus: yes 10:17:46 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:18:29 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:19:21 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 10:20:00 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 10:21:37 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 10:21:50 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1EE96.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:19 oh damn. now i forgot my question 10:22:25 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1EE96.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:22:36 it was about BUGS, the manual, the website. it'll come back :) 10:23:56 What makes you believe it was about bugs?) 10:24:20 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 10:27:30 -!- segv_ is now known as segv 10:28:50 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:28:59 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:29:20 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:29:28 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 10:30:04 I get a _ not bound error with (funcall (f_ (format "foo ~A" _)) "bar") -- what am I doing wrong? 10:30:12 this is with f_underscore .. 10:32:03 <_3b> using the wrong _ maybe? 10:32:36 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-173-208.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [] 10:32:50 HG`` [n=wells@89.166.174.24] has joined #lisp 10:33:01 <_3b> did you :use :f-underscore? 10:35:09 hmm. for a new project of mine i'm considering standard sexps as a network protocol (both server and client are in lisp). now, i would like to reuse the reader for this, but how do i ensure a) that different line endings remain understood by the server across different platforms, and b) is there some way to tell the reader to put an upper bound on the data recv.? 10:35:29 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 10:36:56 _3b: no, but I did have import-from 10:37:07 (:import-from :f-underscore #:f_% #:f_) 10:37:42 <_3b> import _ also 10:37:59 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 10:39:34 _3b: works, thanks. 10:40:14 mega1: oh yes. i was thinking of moving the stuff from SUPPORT to the manual, adding a whole "Getting Support and Reporting Bugs" section to the head of the manual, and also doing something like that on the website 10:41:24 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslgl013.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:41:38 90% of this is pretty uncontroversial, i think, but since it will also make Steel Bank Studio quite a bit more prominent in materials provided by SBCL project i want to make sure it doesn't seem inappropriate, etc 10:42:35 Sounds ok to me. It's not much different from individuals in SUPPORT. 10:42:45 ... to which I wanted to add myself. 10:43:10 does dan_b offer support anymore? 10:43:17 dunno 10:43:18 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1EE96.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:48:01 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 10:49:01 -!- beach` is now known as beach 10:49:06 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:50:14 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:53:40 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-106-138.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:57:58 considering that metacircles seems to be domain-parked, i doubt it 10:58:20 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 10:58:45 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:58:58 segv [n=mb@p4FC1E4AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:23 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 10:59:27 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:59:49 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:00:09 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 11:02:14 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-240.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:03:50 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 11:05:07 c|mell [n=cmell@x250035.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:05:47 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:06:04 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:06:33 manic12: I am not sure which one is easier, but it would be a great service to lots of people if you would take up the work on the backend. 11:07:06 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:09:50 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-108-129.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 11:14:32 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has joined #lisp 11:16:58 foo1 [n=prabu@221.134.21.34] has joined #lisp 11:17:28 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:18:08 what is cl equivalent function for range function of python? 11:21:44 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 11:24:26 there is none, but you can use (loop for i from 0 to 9 collect i), but I'd do the operation inside the loop. 11:27:00 what does the python range function do? 11:27:12 returns a list, range(10) #=> [0, 1, 2, ..., 9] 11:27:26 range(start, [end, [step]]) 11:27:28 alexandria:iota 11:28:01 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 11:28:29 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@93-172-66-96.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:28:29 hypno: you would have to implement your own reader. That's not too hard. Have a look at Rivest's sexps too: http://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/sexp.html 11:29:27 hypno: also, for a Q&D hack, one way to easily limit the size of input is to first read a buffer (read-char, read-line, read-sequence), and then apply READ on that buffer. 11:33:34 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-b67a5a78016fd2a3] has left #lisp 11:39:43 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-12-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:15 -!- dys` is now known as dys 11:40:16 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 11:40:20 The-Kenny [n=moritz@80.135.244.94] has joined #lisp 11:45:59 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-12-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:46:54 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:46:56 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 11:47:13 Modius__ [n=Modius@70.240.12.151] has joined #lisp 11:49:36 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-50-54.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:24 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-64-40.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:52:57 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 11:53:41 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:55:38 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-149-27.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:42 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:17 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:26 -!- Krystof_ is now known as Krystof 11:59:32 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181142102.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:59:38 antoni [n=user@107.pool85-53-17.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 12:02:43 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-230-44.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 12:02:54 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-230-44.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:03:01 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-129-211.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:03:59 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.36] has joined #lisp 12:04:21 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-12-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:05:14 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181142102.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:07:40 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:09:58 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:56 Modius [n=Modius@69.150.58.132] has joined #lisp 12:11:05 matimago: ah. pretty figured i would have to roll my own stuff. ok, thanks. 12:15:54 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:16:12 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-2-120.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:21:25 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@70.240.12.151] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:21:34 -!- semyon421 [n=semyon@wifi-1b.itep.ru] has quit ["leaving"] 12:24:54 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:26:36 novaburst [i=nova@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has joined #lisp 12:27:22 -!- tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:28:46 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 12:29:57 Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:32:10 newerspeak [n=newerspe@cpe-098-026-093-235.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:35:12 sunwukong [n=vukung@125-14-81-177.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:37:10 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279632405.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 12:37:31 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.36] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:40:30 dlowe [n=dlowe@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 12:41:52 mega1: are you coming to ELS? 12:41:58 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:12 nikodemus: unfortunately, no 12:42:41 too bad 12:42:49 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-152-25.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:42:50 If Xof really organizes something this autumn, I'll try to come. 12:43:06 great 12:43:53 oops, gotto run and make up some business cards for ELS :) 12:44:16 I'm looking forward to the reports from the design sessions of the various committees. 12:45:34 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B314D62.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:46:25 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-143.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:46:32 argh 12:46:34 MUST WRITE TALK 12:46:49 oh, I didn't realise nikodemus was coming 12:49:16 why did I wait until today to start writing? Now I'm going to have to steal and repackage everyone else's work 12:51:00 Krystof: since it's an oral thing, shouldn't you rather use a magnetophone and start _recording_ and listening your talk? 12:51:35 Technically I am not writing my talk 12:51:39 because I always extemporise 12:51:48 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 12:51:52 however, the talk needs some technical materials to back it up; it is those that I am, erm, assembling 12:53:22 Ok. 12:53:35 but thanks for the thought! 12:54:20 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 12:55:56 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:59:19 Ogedei [n=user@ip54508552.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #lisp 13:00:21 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:00:28 tsuru` [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:52 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:11 benny99 [n=benny@p5486EB15.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:53 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.169.27.241] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:11:52 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:13:33 Hi Krystof. 13:13:44 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 13:15:28 Procol Harum - A whiter shade of pale 1967.. set's you in a special moode. 13:15:35 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:18:04 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250035.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit ["Instain to the do way"] 13:18:07 ahh pride .. 13:18:45 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-26-27.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:20:38 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has left #lisp 13:22:46 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:26:40 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 13:29:13 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.140.244] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:29:16 Modius_ [n=Modius@69.150.58.132] has joined #lisp 13:35:33 willb2 [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:48 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcb072.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:35:56 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:46 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@69.150.58.132] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:37:21 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D952.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:38:57 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-12-212.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:41 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-28-143.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:27 Modius__ [n=Modius@99.179.98.206] has joined #lisp 13:43:52 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-12-212.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:50:16 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 13:52:16 -!- Modius [n=Modius@69.150.58.132] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:52:59 plutonas [n=plutonas@83.233.152.13] has joined #lisp 13:53:56 -!- projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has left #lisp 13:53:59 frozsyn_ [n=luidnel@blm93-2-82-229-63-104.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:08 cracki [n=cracki@134.130.183.101] has joined #lisp 13:57:12 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 13:57:19 X-Scale2 [i=email@89.180.181.250] has joined #lisp 13:57:46 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-26-27.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:58:08 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:01:12 -!- willb2 [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:03:07 linuxerson [n=linuxers@121.184.10.93] has joined #lisp 14:03:15 -!- linuxerson [n=linuxers@121.184.10.93] has left #lisp 14:03:28 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-130-205.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:04:05 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-2-120.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit ["..."] 14:07:53 -!- antoni [n=user@107.pool85-53-17.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:09:24 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:11:07 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:12:16 Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.98.206] has joined #lisp 14:13:15 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:13:53 jophish_ [n=jophish@80-47-44-71.lond-hex.dynamic.dial.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 14:14:40 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@99.179.98.206] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:16:31 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.201.248] has quit [Success] 14:20:09 -!- jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:23:59 anyone else getting compile errors with the latest cl-irc ? 14:26:00 -!- CrazyEddy [n=amyrol@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:28:17 jlf [n=user@adsl-99-137-140-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:20 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 14:31:21 I'm getting the same error as this guy: http://paste.lisp.org/display/76753 14:31:34 alas, google doesn't provide much more 14:32:05 sounds like cl-irc needs to be updated for the new flexi-streams release 14:32:11 ivank [i=ivan@93-97-51-193.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:32:19 yeah, I had to fix that to use it 14:32:19 bah 14:32:22 what does the f in setf stand for? 14:32:27 ivank: field 14:32:32 in the olden days it was new sbcl releases that broke everything 14:33:14 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.125.107] has joined #lisp 14:33:19 flexi-streams has given me headaches before too 14:33:28 -!- aggieben_ is now known as aggiben 14:33:33 -!- aggiben is now known as aggieben 14:33:35 anyone knows if the cl-irc authors are still alive or if I have to do some manual labor. Got exams now so don't have much time to look into it 14:33:40 sbcl has become too stable to be useful for lining consultants' pockets (: 14:33:45 just wanted to write a fun irc-bot 14:33:57 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:34:05 dlowe: so, you fixed cl-irc? do you have a patch? 14:34:19 PissedNumlock: ehu is the author and he hangs around here 14:34:23 antifuchs: yeah, I'm checking now 14:34:31 *dlowe* may have sent a patch already 14:34:38 would be great :) 14:34:45 last update in their svn is 2 month's old 14:34:53 but nothing about flexistreams in the commit msg's 14:35:00 months* 14:35:17 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:17 my flexi-streams version does not export 'flexi-stream-encoding-error, maybe cl-irc works with an older version of flexi-streams 14:36:37 use cl-irc from svn 14:37:42 PissedNumlock: in protocol.lisp, change external-format-encoding-error to flexi-stream-encoding-error 14:37:56 PissedNumlock: that's the only change I had to make 14:38:22 oh lovely :) 14:38:25 thx 14:38:34 I have a patch here to use cl+ssl too 14:38:45 which worked surprisingly well 14:38:49 don't need ssl 14:38:56 but thx anyway 14:41:41 dlowe: you mean the other way around? 14:41:56 flexi-stream-encoding-error to external-format-encoding-error 14:41:57 PissedNumlock: oops. yeah. 14:42:05 *dlowe* diff'd backwards 14:44:42 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@125-14-81-177.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit ["bye"] 14:44:46 'morning 14:45:44 ericklc [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:46:31 jeej dlowe 14:46:34 -!- ericklc is now known as ikki 14:46:35 works like a charm :) 14:46:43 *hugs* 14:46:45 PissedNumlock: excellent 14:46:46 in a manly way 14:48:30 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:48:43 Krystof: i didn't make make the final decision to go to ELS till yesterday :) 14:51:15 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:51:35 well, good; see you there 14:52:36 willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:53:24 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.98.206] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:53:47 Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.98.206] has joined #lisp 14:54:45 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit ["Be back later"] 14:57:51 klausi [n=klausi@port-92-193-79-167.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:58:17 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:00:03 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 15:00:08 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:00:47 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 15:01:15 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:01:46 Modius__ [n=Modius@99.179.98.206] has joined #lisp 15:04:22 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.98.206] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:07:45 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:09:02 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 15:09:17 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:10:26 Has anyone been using lisp to analysis Formal Languages ? I have to write program which check if 2 langages generate the same words. Could you tell me where should I start searching ? 15:10:36 c|mell [n=cmell@p3023-ipngn101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:12:22 -!- ASau [n=user@host126-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:13:53 nikodemus: "SBCL use>d< Launchpad to track bugs" 15:15:35 also, "lauchpad" 15:15:36 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as X-Scale 15:17:09 danlei [n=user@pD9E2EA21.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:09 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:18:01 MrSpec: which type of languages? Also, I don't see how lisp would give you an edge. You'd probably want to look into tools like AMoRE. 15:18:02 whoopie 15:18:13 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-71-184-170-197.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:35 -!- benny99 [n=benny@p5486EB15.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:20:39 Modius [n=Modius@66.143.167.85] has joined #lisp 15:20:47 mega1: how does it look to you otherwise? 15:20:49 michaelw: it is simply context-free language build on 2 letters only {a, b} 15:21:04 AMoRe, I'll read what it is ;) 15:21:49 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-156-160.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:08 nikodemus: content is fine. One question, who moderates sbcl-bugs and proxies to launchpad? 15:25:42 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:26:25 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 15:26:55 -!- locust [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:27:13 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-149-27.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:27:43 pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has joined #lisp 15:27:54 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-208-88.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:28:47 MrSpec: if your languages are infinite, you will have to do implement a theorem proving algorithm to do that. 15:29:08 MrSpec: if your language are finite, and hopefully not too big, then you can generate them, and just do a set comparison. 15:29:25 it is infinite :/ 15:29:32 I cant generate words 15:29:45 or, it is not the *right* solution 15:30:17 MrSpec: you could develop a ACL2 theory to demonstrate the equivalence of the two grammars. 15:30:47 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 15:30:49 This is pure theorem proving, I don't see any shortcut. 15:31:02 dwave [n=ask@062249178225.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 15:31:09 hmm It can be hard 15:31:24 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-149-203.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:31:26 Do you have a couple of grammar for an example? 15:31:34 yes sec 15:33:01 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@99.179.98.206] has quit [Success] 15:33:33 dan` [n=user@c-68-46-6-17.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:37 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:33:41 input: 1) (a*.b*)* 2) (a+b)* output: equal, input:1) (a+b)*.a 2) a.(a+b)* output: not equal 15:34:27 the input is written in this way 15:34:53 Perhaps there may be a way to prove it more simply than a full fleshed theorem prover. 15:35:11 MrSpec: while you were not wrong, these are also regular languages, and that simplifies the problem quite a bit 15:35:28 MrSpec: yes, if it's regular expressions it's much simplier. 15:35:32 ah 15:35:40 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:35:41 sorry, my mistake 15:35:47 You said context free first. 15:36:09 yeah, I'm reading the problem one more time, and I see it now. 15:36:10 can't take that back! nananana, I can't hear you 15:36:15 so it is a bit easier ? ;) 15:36:29 -!- frozsyn_ [n=luidnel@blm93-2-82-229-63-104.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:36:36 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:36:43 yeah, it goes from undecidable to efficiently decidable (in the general case) :) 15:37:02 but still I can make infinite number of words ... 15:37:04 Anyways, my idea could work in both cases. First you would have to normalize the grammar, using the most basic forms of productions. alternatives would be written as separate productions, repeatitions would be rewritten as couples of productions, etc. So basically you would have only productions of the form nt -> sequence of terminals or non terminals. 15:38:13 so both languages should be write in the same way ? 15:38:52 Then the idea is to take in turn one grammar, starting from the start symbol, and enumerating all the applicable productions, check that the terminal produced may be parsed by the other grammar. If you can eat all the non-terminal while still proving the possible parse, I think we could conclude that they're equivalent. (This must be verified formally, it's just an idea). 15:38:56 Yes. 15:40:04 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 15:40:11 hehe I think can do it on paper, but writing it in lisp will be new experience 15:40:12 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:40:29 do you have some examples, can I find it in any book ? 15:40:33 The idea behind this normalization is to have a minimum number of possible forms, so the checking is simplified. Here we basically have only four forms for all the rules: nt -> . nt -> t. nt -> nt' t nt". and nt -> t nt'. 15:40:38 matimago: you read the "CFG equivalence is undecidable in the general case" part, right? 15:40:38 or problem similar to this ? 15:40:52 I was trained in verification 15:41:12 I understand that isn't donr much anymore 15:41:16 michaelw: in general, yes. But we may always try on specific cases. 15:41:41 You want a book on the subject? 15:41:52 MrSpec: usually compiler books cover grammars. 15:42:13 yeah, but it is very theoretical 15:42:17 they are* 15:42:24 minion: tell us about the dragon book 15:42:25 us: watch out, you'll make krystof angry 15:42:29 But you want "verifiable programming?" 15:42:33 matimago: sure, but it seemed you wanted to give a general decision procedure. I see now you want something based on luck :) 15:42:36 minion: dragon book? 15:42:37 dragon book: is the Dragon Book "Compiler Principles Techniques and Tools", Aho et al. http://dragonbook.stanford.edu/ 15:42:54 younder: verifiable programming ? 15:42:55 MrSpec: well, grammar stuff is quite "theorical". 15:43:11 MrSpec: http://amore.sourceforge.net/ 15:43:34 Proved by mathemaical logic MrSpec 15:43:57 no, it may base on luck ;) 15:44:00 Interesting this AMoRE... 15:44:12 lol 15:44:53 Yes, it is one of the things I won't let go. 15:45:04 Peter. 15:45:38 so this program will use rule based translator ? did I understand it correctly ? 15:46:57 I used Isabelle.. 15:47:32 Isabelle ? 15:47:35 mega1: i'm currently the only moderator, but volunteers are welcome 15:47:37 Are you talking to mathimagio? 15:48:26 younder: what/who is Isabelle ;) 15:49:24 -!- dalton is now known as off-topic 15:49:27 MrSpec: a program written in ML that does manual program verification 15:49:34 -!- off-topic is now known as off_topic 15:49:52 jdz [n=jdz@87.110.12.247] has joined #lisp 15:49:56 -!- off_topic is now known as offtopic 15:49:59 MrSpec: if you can simplify the input, then it'll be easier to process it, yes. 15:49:59 ah, ok 15:50:06 KingThomasV [n=KingThom@c-76-122-37-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:30 mega1: care to join? :) 15:50:57 *mega1* looks around cautiously 15:51:42 ok. so i'll try to start :D on paper first 15:52:40 Well, need I mention "the dragon book" 15:52:42 -!- jlf [n=user@adsl-99-137-140-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:52:51 younder: done by minion above ;-) 15:52:52 nikodemus: I can't promise to be a reliable/timely moderator but adding more to the mix should improve things and with perfection in the limit. 15:53:48 mega1: nikodemus: we'd need at least 3, in timezones shifted by 8 hours ;-) 15:54:33 -!- offtopic is now known as dalton 15:55:12 milanj [n=milan@79.101.169.65] has joined #lisp 15:55:24 TDT [n=TDT@dhcp80ff869b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 15:56:23 Has anyone ever compiled something in lisp and call the method compiled from another language? I heard there are ways of say calling something in C from Python, but I haven't heard anythinga bout calling something in Lisp from Python. 15:56:50 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F20A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:51 that's what pipes are for. 15:57:26 TDT: You could embed Python in Lisp through FFI and give it a callback 15:57:32 TDT: I'm calling Lisp functions from C with callbacks. 15:57:49 TDT: or load ECL into Python and call it's functions 15:58:55 ah ok, sounds like I have a few options. I'll google each of the options mentioned, thanks p_l and aerique 15:59:30 yep, ECL and the proprietary ones will let you create libraries usable from other languages 15:59:35 and there are less direct approaches 15:59:46 TDT: The problem is that Python is written in C, so it doesn't really have FFI - it's like calling C from C, you just need to write apriopriate interface for Python side (in C, of course) 16:00:15 p_l: doesn't it have some form of vaguely CFFI-esque thing these days 16:00:25 (possibly it's an addon that autogenerates the C or something) 16:00:26 rsynnott: nope 16:00:36 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:02 There's an addon called PyRex which lets you write somehow intermingled Python and C code (quite nice thing) and autogenerates apriopriate C and python code 16:01:11 you can also use direct access to dlopen() 16:02:02 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:02:03 TDT: there's an implementation of Python written in Common Lisp (cl-python). It must be easy to call lisp from python or python from lisp with that. 16:02:28 matimago: it supports pretty ancient version of python, afaik 16:02:45 might be a good reference at least though 16:02:57 cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 16:03:03 p_l: what do you mean? isn't there a python standard? 16:03:07 This isn't something I've done in any language, that is, calling something written in one language to another. 16:03:19 wow, common-lisp.net needs googlejuice 16:03:30 p_l: no 16:03:34 sorry, matimago: no 16:03:44 matimago: Then call it similar to making a Java 1.0 VM while everything needs at least 1.4 ;-) 16:03:48 rsynnott: ? 16:03:48 first hit for "common lisp open source" is opensource.franz.com 16:03:50 but cl-python is around cpython 2.2, or something, which is very old 16:03:59 jlf [n=user@209.204.171.109] has joined #lisp 16:04:00 rsynnott: I thought it was still in 1.x line 16:04:06 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 16:04:12 (mind you, jython was cpython 2.3-equiv until fairly recently and people used that) 16:04:20 oh, is it? thought it was a bit newer than that 16:04:48 So your python programs written last year don't work anymore? 16:04:52 also there were quite important changes in 2.1~2.4 line 16:05:03 Go on holiday, and rewrite all your software? 16:05:08 matimago: last year the most important differences were already stable 16:05:13 -!- klausi [n=klausi@port-92-193-79-167.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:05:22 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:18 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.23.153] has joined #lisp 16:06:18 tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:06:46 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-76-122-37-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:07:01 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:07:11 hah, just found http://www.pps.jussieu.fr/~jch/software/XinC.html - argh. 16:07:27 Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:09:11 hah 16:09:30 planet lisp needs to see that :) 16:13:00 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 16:13:40 hum .. is it possible to dispatch based on user-defined types, at compile time, using define-compiler-macro ..? 16:13:50 i haven't looked at that thing in quite a while 16:13:59 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:16:39 ..maybe this makes no sense .. :} 16:19:29 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 16:19:48 lnostdal: you can dispatch on basically anything, as long as your environment can represent it 16:19:56 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 16:19:57 you don't get hold of any kind of inferred type 16:20:31 ok, i'm ok with SBCL specific methods (i recall some type-info stuff in sb-cltl2, i think(?)) 16:21:28 looks like that's just info about how a name or symbol is bound though .. lexical, etc. 16:22:30 erm 16:22:44 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:22:46 not according to the docstring (for variable-information) that I'm reading 16:23:17 also sb-cltl2 gives you compiler-let, with which you can really hang yourself 16:23:20 -!- foo1 [n=prabu@221.134.21.34] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:23:27 oh .. yeah .. you're right .. awesome .. heh :) 16:24:29 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 16:25:57 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 16:25:58 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:19 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-149-203.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:28:08 i like rope .. lisp needs more of it :) 16:28:08 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 16:28:11 this is cool 16:28:12 heh 16:29:24 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78.59.166.221] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:32:32 nikodemus pasted "sb-cltl2 should do the trick" at http://paste.lisp.org/+1QDS 16:32:59 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 16:35:01 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-78-239.w83-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:37:28 lnostdal annotated #80848 "yeah" at http://paste.lisp.org/+1QDS#1 16:37:49 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:38:03 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.23.153] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:38:15 this only includes declared types .. not the stuff sbcl does behind the scene while optimizing? 16:38:23 yes 16:38:26 righto 16:39:17 if you need those, you need to write a deftransform, which means really dipping into internals 16:39:43 ok 16:39:43 though not in very brittle way, just very undocumented and unsupported 16:40:13 -!- delYsid [n=user@debian/developer/mlang] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:41:31 arg-types, return-type etc. .. can build some interesting stuff using this 16:41:56 something for sb-cltl3 ...? x) 16:42:19 just give everyone guns 16:42:28 "here; fix it" 16:43:37 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:44:52 How do I reset a function? e.g., I did a > (setf name '(John Q. Doe)). But now I don't want the variable 'name' to be anything anymore 16:45:06 (unintern 'name) 16:45:50 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:45:56 ah thanks 16:46:07 why do we use the ' at the beginning of name, though? 16:46:18 just cause it's a string? 16:46:31 to make you want to read a book. 16:47:38 unintern is a function, tseug .. so (unintern name) would try to unintern the value stored "in" the symbol name 16:48:30 ken` [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 16:49:16 Oh, I see. 16:50:18 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-66-143-167-85.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:45 minion: tell tseug about pcl-book 16:51:46 tseug: direct your attention towards pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 16:52:05 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181142102.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:53:59 thanks nikodemus, I already have that book bookmarked. I'm currently reading "Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming" 16:55:30 i'm having some trouble getting a macro to work. could anyone lend a hand? code is at http://paste.lisp.org/+1QDT 16:55:49 Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-66-143-167-85.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:13 what's with the new lisppaste urls? 16:56:35 i think they are meant to be more twitter-compatible, michaelw 16:56:39 michaelw: getting too long for twitter, I guess. 16:57:06 oh dear 16:58:52 michaelw: PROGRESS! 16:59:45 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:00:12 "140 characters ought to be enough for anybody" 17:01:04 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:02:53 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-18-231.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:00 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 17:03:44 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:05:20 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:07:42 -!- Modius [n=Modius@66.143.167.85] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:08:12 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-71-138-130-18.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:00 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F20A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:09:39 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:13:40 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-66-143-167-85.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:14:58 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-66-143-167-85.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:15:27 -!- dan` [n=user@c-68-46-6-17.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:17:25 jmbr [n=jmbr@120.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:17:39 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-e230d03c693c8a2f] has joined #lisp 17:17:41 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-143.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:18:29 slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-139-74.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:18:33 hey guy! 17:18:54 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 17:19:07 is there any macro which return the class name of a object? 17:19:08 projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has joined #lisp 17:19:15 What benefit does twitter have with lisp paste? 17:19:25 then again..I really don't understand twitter a whole lot 17:19:39 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:19:39 TDT: Are there *any* benefits to twitter? 17:20:14 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:20:15 slackaholic: Look up class-name and find-class for both directions on that. 17:20:20 slackaholic: there are two functions, and unimaginatively, they are named CLASS-NAME and CLASS-OF 17:21:34 *TDT* cheers for the first question he likely ever answered in this channel 17:22:04 loxs [n=loxs@77.85.234.205] has joined #lisp 17:22:42 slackaholic: in conclusion, the answer to your question is: No. 17:22:53 :-) 17:23:01 damn... =( 17:23:13 Hmm, openbinder appears to be impressive: http://www.osnews.com/story/13674/Introduction_to_OpenBinder_and_Interview_with_Dianne_Hackborn/ 17:23:19 so.. i will explain for eveybody... 17:23:38 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:03 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:26:09 Now, it floated to my mind because Android uses it, capitalising on past research done by Be. 17:26:11 i have to write some sentences and i want to write them depending the class of a object 17:26:23 how can i do it? 17:27:08 class-of? 17:27:59 rsynnott: no! 17:28:13 slackaholic: defining different methods for the different classes. 17:28:45 (defmethod write-sentence ((self class-1)) (write-line "sentence 1")) (defmethod write-sentence ((self class-2)) (write-line "sentence 2")) 17:28:49 at first glance, openbinder seems like "just another VM". Is there anything more to it? 17:29:25 i'm having some trouble getting a macro to work. could anyone lend a hand? code is at http://paste.lisp.org/+1QDT 17:29:35 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:52 jlf`: making a flying spaghetti monster macro? 17:30:02 dlowe: finite state machine :) 17:30:27 dlowe: I was just about to say the same thing ... 17:30:44 -!- aggieben [n=aggieben@63.246.56.57] has quit ["~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~"] 17:30:45 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-48.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:30:52 pjb, i tried to use it... but i want to do it using :after 17:30:56 jlf`: ,@ -> , 17:31:07 aggieben, it appears to be a novel way of doing IPC -- something beyond the dumbness of pipes, shared memory and sockets. 17:31:08 slackaholic: then add :after in the right place. 17:31:35 jlf`: if you want the above to expand into that, you have to return that form... 17:31:41 pjb, and inside :after method i want to put the sentence depending the class 17:31:54 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:32:11 aggieben, that is, not a VM at all. 17:32:21 slackaholic: so inside the after method, you call (write-sentence self). 17:32:32 jlf`: oh, I see what you're saying. What pjb said. 17:33:44 jlf`: but you could also use :initarg and `(make-instance 'fsm :name ,name :states ',(...)) 17:34:20 pjb, ooohhhh... now i understand! 17:34:30 pjb hahahaha... thanks man! 17:35:18 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 17:35:43 slackaholic: good! 17:36:12 pjb: that results in (PUSH (STATE #:G1942) STATES) 17:36:53 jlf`: why are you using a macro? 17:37:10 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-173-208.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:29 drewc: the model will eventually get more complex, with input signals, default outputs, per-state outputs, etc. and i thought that the specification of fsms would be cleaner this way 17:38:39 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:39:11 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:11 jlf`: I suggest actually having a nice working functionial interface first... you might find out that your don't need that macro, and it's a lot easier to work with and debug functions. 17:41:06 hmm maybe so. i was using rainer joswig's post on dsl's as an example but maybe i was getting ahead of myself. 17:41:43 antoni [n=user@99.pool85-53-20.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 17:41:54 jlf`: i think so... macros are a great tool, but really should be avoided unless you really need to add syntax. 17:42:16 and adding syntax is something that you should avoid until you have the semantics right anyway :) 17:42:17 what file extension do lisp files use? 17:42:28 panzer`kunzt: .lisp 17:42:31 panzer`kunzt: .lisp is very common 17:42:35 ok 17:42:42 some software uses .cl, so don't let that fool you (: 17:42:44 panzer`kunzt: though older code might use .cl 17:43:36 or in extreme cases .lsp :) 17:44:02 ok 17:44:32 ausentv [n=lhugbj@187.34.44.18] has joined #lisp 17:45:00 jlf`: i've learned not to fear QUOTE and LAMBDA, but to embrace them! use higher order functions and explicitly quoted names and you'll find that, when you do write the macro, it's usually a simple layer over what you've already done. 17:45:25 drewc: fair enough, i'll try implementing it functionally instead. but just to satisfy my curiosity, any idea how to make the macro i pasted expand as i wish? pjb's suggestion resulted in (PUSH (STATE #:G1942) STATES), when i'm trying to get (PUSH (STATE SOME-STATE NIL NIL) STATES) 17:46:04 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-2b727478311619b3] has joined #lisp 17:47:12 jlf`: you're missing a , before the gensym. 17:47:30 -!- projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:47:45 projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has joined #lisp 17:48:05 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:19 jlf`: the problem is that you are trying to process the states subform at run-time instead of at macroexpansion time. 17:49:49 (defmacro fsm (name states) `(make-instance 'fsm :name ',name :states ',(mapcar (lambda (s) `(state ,s)) states))) and here, you notice that you almost don't need the macro, it could as easily be a function. 17:50:58 (defun fsm* (name states) (make-instance 'fsm :name name :states (mapcar (lambda (s) `(state ,s)) states))) (defmacro fsm (name states) (fsm* name states)) 17:51:00 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-66-68-183-235.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["leaving"] 17:53:40 i need to think about this more and experiment. thanks to you both for your help. 17:55:01 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-79-78.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:57:23 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:57:33 lnostdal: have you permanently abandoned symbolicweb? 17:57:41 -!- cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:58:03 yes, i'm doing a complete rewrite of it 17:58:14 ok 17:58:50 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 17:59:14 STM and dataflow support from the ground up .. locking and "babysitting" state was hopeless 18:01:45 -!- ausente [n=lhugbj@189-19-118-44.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:02:33 is it going to be in an alpha state anytime soon? 18:03:34 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:44 lnostdal: i too am excited about your STM stuff! :) 18:06:59 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:07:39 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@d54C28BA4.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 18:08:35 Any councel when trying to choose between weblocks and ht-ajax? 18:09:04 meingbg: ucw :) 18:09:09 er, i don't know about time .. i'm trying to find a sane way api for containers now .. simple stuff or "tests" does work, but it's not possible to build web-apps. on it yet 18:09:22 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c023h065.dorm.reed.edu] has joined #lisp 18:09:23 -way 18:09:28 lnostdal: *nod* 18:10:41 bit` [n=bit@c-67-171-211-187.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:23 is there some type of command that'll return a random lisp deffinition? 18:11:29 in sbcl or the buffer scratch 18:11:41 huh? 18:11:45 panzer`kunzt: wha? 18:11:53 panzer`kunzt, who? 18:12:09 there's a random code generator in paul dietz's ansi-tests 18:12:09 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:13:19 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-82-162.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:15:26 oudeis [n=oudeis@89.138.245.197] has joined #lisp 18:17:53 Fade: is ucw more actively maintained that ht-ajax and weblocks? Or wait, are they really comparable at all? 18:18:20 -!- bit` [n=bit@c-67-171-211-187.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:18:58 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:19:16 meingbg: UCW is very actively maintained, and is not comparable, it's significantly more flexible and mature. 18:20:41 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcb072.osnanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:20:44 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@89.139.75.20] has joined #lisp 18:20:45 meingbg: try #ucw if you're interested 18:21:18 drewc: I was about to put together a framework, building my way up from hunchentoot and trying to add ht-ajax and other libraries in, trying to make them work together... Is UCW this very work already done? 18:21:41 drewc: ok, #ucw. 18:22:00 ucw is the best current choice frameworkwise, imo 18:22:12 'course it's the nature of opinions that everybody has one. :) 18:22:33 meingbg: no, UCW has nothing to do with hunchentoot or ht-ajax, so that work is not done. Depending on what your needs are, UCW either already has it or can be made to do it quite easily. 18:22:51 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 18:23:20 Fade: Of course. Asking for opinions is just in order to roll your own, right? 18:23:33 shore'nuff 18:25:04 -!- Guest51399 [n=user@72.14.228.89] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:25:49 drewc: Sorry, what I meant was: Does UCW already have a way to serve web pages that works well with a way to communicate with the browser in ajax style? 18:27:19 see parenscript 18:27:42 meingbg: ajax is not usually about web pages, but yes, UCW offers such things. There is/was the ucw_ajax tree which has a lot of ajax-y magic, so that's a good starting point. 18:28:07 however, i'm not sure that anybody has ported it all over to the new ucw core.... 18:28:30 regardless, ucw offers a very simple 'action and callback' model which plays very well with ajax-y stuff. 18:29:35 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:29:59 (FSVO simple i guess) 18:30:08 hi, drewc! 18:30:24 greetings tic! 18:30:49 drewc, just glad to see you. hope you're doing fine! 18:31:21 tic: i'm doing well... busy as i've ever been, but busy is a good thing :) 18:32:53 drewc: ok. 18:36:50 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89.138.245.197] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:39:52 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 18:41:01 -!- MrSpec is now known as spec[away] 18:43:00 milanj- [n=milan@93.87.192.227] has joined #lisp 18:43:28 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:16 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.100.172] has quit ["Log this!"] 18:44:26 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@d54C28BA4.access.telenet.be] has left #lisp 18:47:29 milan [n=milan@77.46.250.97] has joined #lisp 18:47:55 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:48:19 -!- HG`` [n=wells@89.166.174.24] has quit [Client Quit] 18:51:12 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@d54C28BA4.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 18:53:31 -!- milanj- [n=milan@93.87.192.227] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:54:03 whats the right way to say about what happen when i use _make-instance_ macro??? "instance a object"? "instance a variable"?? "make a instance"? none of them??? 18:54:25 "make a instance of a class"? 18:54:44 "make an instance of a class" 18:54:51 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 18:54:53 slackaholic: make-instance is a function 18:55:27 and all your terminological woes can be solved here: 18:55:31 clhs make-instance 18:55:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ins.htm 18:55:52 "The generic function make-instance creates and returns a new instance of the given class." 18:56:15 what's the difference between macro and function? ok ...function return something... and macro? 18:56:40 minion: tell slackaholic about that-dead-sexy-book 18:56:41 slackaholic: direct your attention towards that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 18:57:29 i have them 18:58:33 minion: tell slackaholic about gentle 18:58:34 slackaholic: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 18:59:10 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.169.65] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:01:20 UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:01 damnit ... that 'load fasl anyway' restart should come after 'try recompiling' ... i just loaded an old .fasl into a large system near the end of a 10 minute compilation :/ ... 19:02:15 _not_ what i intended. 19:02:38 letexpx [n=letexpx@LPuteaux-156-16-28-243.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:02:54 slackaholic: a macro is a layer between your reader and evaluator: it takes the unevaled arguments and returns a valid s-expression that is given to the evaluator 19:03:06 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c023h065.dorm.reed.edu] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:03:35 slackaholic: Basically, a macro is a function run at compilation time which takes an s-expr, and returns an s-expr that is supposed to be evaluated instead of the input sexpr 19:05:50 dysinger [n=tim@32.177.19.88] has joined #lisp 19:07:12 -!- Gertm [n=user@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:07:54 Gertm [n=user@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 19:08:05 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:40 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-123-142.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:01 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@LPuteaux-156-16-28-243.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:11:25 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.125.107] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:11:39 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@89.139.75.20] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:13:56 -!- Gertm [n=user@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:14:07 Gertm [n=user@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 19:14:23 i forgot about the touretzky book. it's a nice tutorial. 19:16:24 slackaholic: Not sure if it's been recommended yet, but I'm currently reading "Object Oriented Programming in Common Lisp", by Keene, and it's been fantastic so far to explain the whole CLOS thing. 19:17:19 TDT, i have this one too 19:17:40 slackaholic: make-instance is really well covered in there...um, sec, I have the book right here. 19:17:42 TDT, i read a little bit from each book... :P 19:17:58 page 156 describes make-instane 19:18:02 instance 19:18:09 and how to build on top of it with after methods 19:18:30 I really recommend concentrating on one book at a time, and reading it totally. There's so much good information in this book you won't know to look up otherwise 19:18:41 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-18-231.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:41 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:18:52 CLOS is a very fast read, been at it for less than 2 weeks and about 2/3rd the way through, and I'm a slow reader in tech books. 19:18:59 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:19:05 Not as fun as developing maybe, but definitely more worthwhile IMHO. 19:19:18 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-a1e370d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:19:40 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 19:21:08 TDT, wow!! really... it has a very good approach 19:21:34 Seriously worth reading, one of the best books I've ever seen. 19:22:13 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:23:05 slackaholic: Oh that question you asked earlier today, about the class/symbol name, page 135 ;) 19:25:19 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-75-20.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 19:25:50 TDT, ok i will see 19:26:38 TDT, i found a good quick reference about lisp.. don't know if somebody here have this one... but here it go! http://clqr.berlios.de/clqr-a4-consec.pdf 19:26:53 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@d54C28BA4.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 19:27:02 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:27:49 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 19:29:16 elurin [n=user@85.99.65.127] has joined #lisp 19:29:21 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:29:24 I never seen that before, but is pretty helpful - thanks for sharing the link. 19:29:34 hm, prompt.franz.com is down? 19:29:52 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [] 19:31:28 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:29 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:31:55 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:33:23 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 19:35:30 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:35:34 stipet [n=user@c83-253-25-49.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:36:24 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-a1e370d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:37:21 ejs [n=eugen@156-225-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:22 legumbre_ [n=user@190.135.25.114] has joined #lisp 19:42:04 fe[nl]ix_ [i=3ed29af2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-aff798f36345ea7c] has joined #lisp 19:42:12 hello 19:42:13 fe[nl]ix_, memo from beach: I will arrive tonight (tusday) at around 21:00 at the Linate airport. 19:42:14 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@228.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:43:42 kpreid: for a while, I hear. 19:43:44 -!- dysinger [n=tim@32.177.19.88] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:43:47 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:09 -!- fe[nl]ix_ [i=3ed29af2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-aff798f36345ea7c] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 19:48:22 fe[nl]ix_: what's the rune, rod stuff about? unicode processing on non-unicode aware lisps? 19:49:32 -!- ausentv is now known as ausente 19:51:14 -!- ejs [n=eugen@156-225-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:54:25 birdsbite [n=user@74.196.9.26] has joined #lisp 19:54:58 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-48.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:57:56 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-25-84.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:58:28 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@120.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:59:14 -!- stipet [n=user@c83-253-25-49.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:00:10 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e44a372.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:01:39 elurin` [n=user@88.224.45.192] has joined #lisp 20:04:58 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-139-74.3g.claro.net.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:05:34 HG` [n=wells@89.166.181.129] has joined #lisp 20:11:47 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@83.233.152.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:12:32 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:14:53 Hmm...kinda half brainstorming here. I'm thinking, just for a mental exercise to create a "script" of sorts that can read from a file, that has commands in English sentences, and execute them as commands. Basically for a MailDir directory, use melbase to load each file, then go through the rules (yeah yeah, I know maybe kinda pointless but kinda fun) 20:15:13 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 20:15:17 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:15:37 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@228.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:15:38 I'm thinking of maybe using a macro to generate functions for each of the parts of the action, then while parsing the file using regexps string the functions together. 20:16:11 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.65.127] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:16:32 Not sure how much sense that makes, but I wonder if it's a good approach to the problem to try something this way. 20:17:47 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:19:34 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:23:45 ejs [n=eugen@156-225-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:42 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 20:26:37 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-75-20.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:28:21 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:30:04 -!- Pricey [i=pricechi@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.pricechild] has left #lisp 20:33:57 slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-139-74.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 20:38:48 -!- Gertm [n=user@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:39:04 Gertm [n=user@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:42:07 TDT: this makes a lot of sense. 20:42:24 TDT: but instead of a script, think of it as an intelligent "shell". 20:43:21 TDT: start with some NLP analysis, then hook a GPS with plan maker, and have daemons run commands to reach the goals. 20:43:45 That's what I'd hope would be a GUI-killer :-) 20:44:59 -!- legumbre_ is 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[n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 22:46:56 *drewc* <3's AMOP 22:47:25 paip 22:49:34 -!- jophish_ [n=jophish@80-47-44-71.lond-hex.dynamic.dial.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:50:26 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:53:34 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:55:29 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 22:57:45 btw, a big win for free windows cl implementations would be COM interface :D 22:57:46 -!- jophish [n=jophish@80-47-44-71.lond-hex.dynamic.dial.as9105.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:58:55 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:59:31 kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-72-43-19-216.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:57 jophish [n=jophish@80-47-44-71.lond-hex.dynamic.dial.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 23:02:34 iceknight [n=iceknigh@nas-12-041.dialup.farlep.net] has joined #lisp 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