00:01:48 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C3BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:02:55 minion: memo for fusss: You might find http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/article-drafts/sbcl-win32-slime-and-cygwin-emacs.txt to be of some interest. 00:02:55 Remembered. I'll tell fusss when he/she/it next speaks. 00:06:27 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:09:54 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 00:13:40 lagenar [n=lucas@190.178.194.142] has joined #lisp 00:15:06 dulouz [n=ross@dsl254-119-219.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:10 tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:16:27 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@cimbernheim.mhn.de] has joined #lisp 00:23:48 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F3F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:24:26 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:23 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.133.213] has joined #lisp 00:32:33 -!- ausente is now known as dalton 00:49:57 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-5-152.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:50:26 -!- lagenar [n=lucas@190.178.194.142] has quit ["Saliendo"] 00:53:50 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01:21:22 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-88.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:21:33 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 01:22:37 -!- Corun_ is now known as Corun 01:22:40 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-75-192.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["« La POO c'est bien beau, mais en C au moins on va droit au but. »"] 01:32:30 -!- dulouz [n=ross@dsl254-119-219.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:36:48 -!- Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:38:04 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:46:52 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:28 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:37 In an "I wish I had a better camera" moment, there are four deer (at least I presume they are deer) visible from my hotel room window. 01:50:15 tsuru` [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:39 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.232.183] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:56:26 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:58:46 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-46-58.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:00:31 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:04:59 TDT [n=user@126.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:12 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:20:35 -!- ausente [n=lhugbj@189-19-118-44.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit ["EJECT"] 02:25:37 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-162-42.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:50 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-81-1.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 02:28:17 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:28:59 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:31:27 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joined #lisp 02:51:30 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has left #lisp 02:52:02 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:52:29 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:35 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:52:53 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:49 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:02:31 -!- m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:02:51 m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 03:06:36 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:09:47 saikat__ [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-162-42.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:47 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-162-42.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:11:51 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:16:28 -!- nuntius [i=Daniel@118.37.165.172] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:20:25 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-215-133.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:21:17 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:16 i think i'm entering a world of pain, mixing system call bindings spread across a vast cliki page conspiracy not to mention sb-unix and sb-posix 03:22:16 fusss, memo from nyef: You might find http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/article-drafts/sbcl-win32-slime-and-cygwin-emacs.txt to be of some interest. 03:22:58 what is the customary way to allocate a buffer for unix system calls to fill? 03:23:24 make-alien + alien-sap is really error prone and C'ish 03:24:28 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:24:49 let me just speak aloud to clear my head and let others chime in to debug my thoughts .. 03:25:35 sb-alien:make-alien allocates a buffer with malloc which C code in a dso can work on; either C can call free to release it, or we call free-alien ourselves. 03:27:18 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:28:43 i could feed that to a C function that expects a point foo (void *buf) == (let ((buf (make-alien (array char 80))) (%foo (alien-sap buf))) assuming %foo is an FFI and 80 is an arbitrary buffer-size. is it really that awkward? 03:29:31 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-81-1.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:29:40 fusss: with-alien. 03:30:29 Good morning. 03:31:58 pkhuong: (with-alien ((buf (array char 80)) (sb-posix:read STDOUT (alien-sap buf) 80)) or some such? i'm guessing with-alien just wraps make-alien and free-alien in an unwind-protect? 03:32:11 err +stdin+ ;-) 03:32:29 hey beach 03:33:05 freethin1-home [n=berdote@adsl-88-1-174.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:18 -!- saikat__ is now known as saikat_ 03:36:49 nyef: there are 10 thousand middle-aged people on Harley Davidsons outside my window. I would need a wide lense to capture any pair of them in a photo ;-) 03:37:29 10 thousand? I bet that's loud. 03:38:27 Memorial Day, when upper-middle class white-collar jerks on bikes bully gangsters out of the hood :-( 03:41:57 haha 03:42:14 Dalborga [n=lhugbj@189-19-118-44.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 03:42:29 fusss: if only 03:42:51 anyone know a good way to make alists in C? I only know how to manage it in lisp :P 03:43:44 -!- freethink-home [n=berdote@adsl-190-234-31.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:43:58 typedef struct alist { void * key, value; struct alist * next; } alist_t; 03:44:03 fisxoj: C doesn't have a good EQUAL; you either compare values or pointers. 03:45:26 alright, I'll go ahead and try something 03:45:28 thanks 03:46:03 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-182-131-168.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:46:11 trick is traversing the list where key could by anything; you might need to make that into a union and dispatch on type in a switch 03:46:20 it's always a good idea to have a "union value" thing in C; see how Appel did it in the green tiger book. 03:47:53 struct alist { void *key, union type key_type, struct alist *next alist_t; union type { INT, FLOAT, CHAR, STRING, ...}; 03:48:15 err, that looks more like an enum 03:48:47 brb, beer o'clock :-) 03:48:49 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 03:49:40 -!- Dalborga [n=lhugbj@189-19-118-44.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit ["lost terminal lol"] 03:52:56 ... ALIEN-SAP?!? Whatever happened to ADDR? 03:54:29 minion: memo for fusss: You might be interested in using ADDR instead of ALIEN-SAP for passing pointers around. ADDR is actually reasonably typesafe, whereas ALIEN-SAP discards all type information on the pointer. 03:54:29 Remembered. I'll tell fusss when he/she/it next speaks. 03:56:09 Clearly, the SB-ALIEN-COOKBOOK has more of a need to exist than I thought. 03:58:02 Meanwhile, I think it might be closer to bedtime than beer o'clock. 03:58:06 G'night all. 03:58:25 -!- TDT [n=user@126.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:59:43 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-219-152-214.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:53 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.133.213] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:05:23 -!- s0ber_ [i=pie@114-45-225-58.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:05:36 hi everyone 04:05:42 it's towel day! 04:06:13 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-251.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 04:11:03 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-128-242.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:13:21 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-178-116-152.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:12 hello nowhere_man 04:15:26 "towel day"? 04:16:44 -!- JohnnyL [i=crashcar@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 04:17:26 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-128-242.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:18:16 anyone used Etiquette before? 04:22:15 beach: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Towel_Day 04:22:44 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:23:24 a day lots of people mention but nobody actually honours with an actual towel 04:24:13 (which is actually appropriate, I think) 04:25:56 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 04:26:11 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:27:56 Hi. Random question, completely not related to lisp. But what is the meaning of the phrase "bucked the tide?" 04:31:47 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-114-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:32:35 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:32:46 tseug: when the tide opposes the direction one wishes to travel (by boat), especially if there are opposing winds, the swells created and the motion of the water causes a boat to 'buck', as if it were a horse trying to throw its rider. 04:35:14 ahh, thank you. 04:36:58 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:37:32 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 04:41:55 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-123.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:04 Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.9.122] has joined #lisp 04:43:39 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:43:49 -!- jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 04:45:24 newerspeak [n=newerspe@cpe-098-026-093-235.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:52:30 -!- CrazyEddy [n=substrat@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:54:39 CrazyEddy [n=demotion@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 04:55:35 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-219-152-214.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:55:39 -!- xuanwu [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:55:51 I own a towel for h2g2 reasons, I will have to wash it today 05:03:36 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-128-242.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:15:07 abdullah [i=cbc4bea2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-b6fcd309382a6277] has joined #lisp 05:15:49 hello everyone 05:15:50 -!- CrazyEddy [n=demotion@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:17:30 hello abdullah 05:17:39 Anyone here knows of any irc for discussing theoretical computer science? 05:19:29 CrazyEddy [n=superter@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 05:21:09 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 05:22:40 milanj [n=milan@93.87.141.9] has joined #lisp 05:23:59 do cs theory types even use computers? 05:24:08 not to mention irc... 05:24:18 ausente [n=lhugbj@189-19-118-44.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 05:25:46 For some value of "use", yes. 05:26:22 (computers. IRC, I don't know) 05:27:08 nice answer ... I suspected as much ... 05:27:56 But i guess there are guys out there who might be good with programming and the like? 05:30:18 i mean theoretical comp sci guys ... 05:31:17 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.125.107] has joined #lisp 05:31:24 are you the one? 05:32:16 s/the// 05:34:46 perhaps one ... but not the one ... 05:35:26 I am neither completely theoretical and neither completely practical .... 05:35:43 I like walking somewhere in between ... 05:35:54 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@71.236.25.127] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:36:42 Do people who work in lisp not like algorithms, theory of computation, logic and the like? 05:37:49 well those topics are theoretical computer science stuff ... 05:39:14 some may like, some may not 05:40:36 ok .. :( ... 05:40:43 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:06 *fusss* is wondering why sb-alien:c-string-to-string isn't exported 05:41:08 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:41:09 willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 05:41:14 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["Off!"] 05:41:33 i'm using it as a work-horse, don't know if there is anything more idiomatic atm 05:41:34 fusss, memo from nyef: You might be interested in using ADDR instead of ALIEN-SAP for passing pointers around. ADDR is actually reasonably typesafe, whereas ALIEN-SAP discards all type information on the pointer. 05:42:18 nyef: cheers! yes, I found addr in the cmucl-user's guide. along with DEREF. 05:43:23 just reading the logs 05:43:50 -!- abdullah [i=cbc4bea2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-b6fcd309382a6277] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 05:44:26 Ogedei [n=user@ip54508552.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #lisp 05:44:29 jmbr [n=jmbr@140.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 05:44:36 oudeis [n=oudeis@192.117.29.131.static.012.net.il] has joined #lisp 05:45:04 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:45:09 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 05:45:34 abdullah: lisp is unlike anything you have heard about it. 05:46:33 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 05:46:34 lisp is just the most efficient interface to an adversarial computer; it helps you get in a few punches 05:46:54 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.141.9] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:46:54 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@140.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:47:30 i really appreciate it how iolib is like a portable sb-(posix|unix|ext|sys) 05:47:58 *hefner* is rocking the sb-posix 05:49:40 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-205.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 05:50:07 the sb-posix is spineless without teh sb-unix 05:50:44 yodog, how come your open(2) flags are in sb-unix? (sb-posix "/tmp/foo" sb-unix:o-rdonly) ;-) 05:50:55 along with every useful thing ;-) 05:51:14 -!- ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:52:53 -!- Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.9.122] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:53:22 you are mistaken. 05:53:29 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1149.versanet.de] has quit [Success] 05:53:57 -!- tsuru` [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:00:06 beach: Towel Day is the day when we celebrate the work of Douglas Adams 06:00:24 author of the Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy 06:01:04 where the reader is instructed that the single object that one should always carry is a towel 06:01:37 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 06:01:37 -!- Ogedei [n=user@ip54508552.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:01:41 always useful, to protect oneself from toxic fumes, stupid space beast or even, in some cases, to dry oneself 06:02:12 Hello 06:03:21 hefner: if it's not my slime autocompletion it doesn't exist. give iolib a chance, it's the tasteful union of every one-off ffi you ever wanted written. (though the multiplexing stuff is utterly hot) 06:04:46 aaaite, back to throwing punches 06:04:47 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 06:12:54 dys` [n=andreas@p5B314FC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:57 <_3b> hefner: i can more or less load .svg files from inkscape now, aside from arcs and filters 06:14:56 <_3b> (at least the few i tried, the css 'parsing' isn't particularly robust :) 06:16:25 _3b: cool. 06:16:44 still going the vecto route? 06:17:16 <_3b> so far, starting to run into the limitations of it though 06:17:43 <_3b> don't see much hope of doing filters for example without some sort of layers 06:18:02 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.162.22] has joined #lisp 06:18:59 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B316E1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:19:54 <_3b> not sure if i want to try to extend vecto more, or just write directly to swf stuff 06:24:37 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:25:32 mogunus [n=marco@wsip-70-184-14-138.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:10 Does anyone know of a diagram notation for depicting finite state machines operating on other finite state machines? 06:26:20 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 06:29:59 -!- piyush [n=piyush@122.169.80.222] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:30:38 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-76-122-37-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:35:13 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has left #lisp 06:42:42 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:44:45 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-6-39.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 06:49:07 is there something in lisp that resembles the pack() function of python? 06:50:29 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-78-239.w83-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:51:08 good morning 06:52:41 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 06:52:49 hello 06:55:35 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:55:56 just remembered PCL has a good example of what I need 06:56:28 foo1 [n=prabu@221.134.21.34] has joined #lisp 06:56:38 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:57:04 is it possible to get errors in sbcl with line numbers? 06:57:43 Yes, but if you want that, you're doing it wrong. :-) 06:58:41 why? 06:59:22 my stack trace show above 20 frames, how can i locate the correct one in my source code? 06:59:33 foo1: You use `v' on the frame in Slime 06:59:54 and the corresponding _expr_ not line will be highlighted 07:01:46 ok 07:03:36 foo1: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.devel/13246 07:04:14 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:15 foo1: This contains an explanation why line numbers are inferior to what's used, and also a link to how you can customize the debugger to print line numbers. 07:04:48 ASau [n=user@host86-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:06:15 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-205.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 07:09:22 sorry, i forgot how to declaim to compile with debug information 07:09:45 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 07:14:05 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:19:34 piyush [n=piyush@122.170.2.185] has joined #lisp 07:22:26 mega1 [n=mega@53d83920.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:23:25 tcr: why clim gadgets are not focusable when tab key is pressed? 07:24:09 foo1: I do not know sorry. Wait for beach, or hefner. 07:29:57 Ogedei [n=user@ip54508552.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #lisp 07:30:18 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 07:30:25 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:32:49 xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-157-76.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:13 -!- xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-157-76.tukw.qwest.net] has left #lisp 07:37:45 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:37:58 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-26-85.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:39:27 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 07:43:31 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:44:02 Krystof [n=csr21@AMontsouris-153-1-34-132.w90-2.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:44:55 ricree [n=rareed@c-67-184-13-36.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:20 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-5-152.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:52:16 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.36] has joined #lisp 07:52:41 benny [n=benny@i577A196F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:53:29 -!- Ogedei [n=user@ip54508552.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:53:33 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:54:02 -!- ricree [n=rareed@c-67-184-13-36.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:54:14 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-42-115.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:55:52 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 07:56:31 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:58:35 fvw_ [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.36] has joined #lisp 08:01:02 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@80.250.159.240] has joined #lisp 08:02:07 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-12-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:50 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 08:09:46 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 08:10:00 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:12:14 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.36] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:13:25 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@192.117.29.131.static.012.net.il] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:24:25 -!- fvw_ [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.36] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:26:14 jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 08:28:32 ignas [n=ignas@78.59.166.221] has joined #lisp 08:29:29 -!- jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has left #lisp 08:33:00 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-5-185.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:35:41 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:37:16 -!- piyush [n=piyush@122.170.2.185] has quit [Client Quit] 08:37:21 piyush [n=piyush@122.170.2.185] has joined #lisp 08:39:00 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:42:48 elias` [n=me@resnet-pat-254.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:43:58 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 08:44:31 -!- blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:44:37 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-12-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:39 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 08:49:07 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-12-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:50:09 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-120-123.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:50:34 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-46-58.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:34 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 08:55:32 delqna [n=delqna@p54A36722.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:33 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:06 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 09:03:48 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181149007.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:04:01 good afternoon 09:06:52 hello nikodemus 09:08:28 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.247.53] has joined #lisp 09:10:47 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.36] has joined #lisp 09:14:02 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-5-152.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit ["..."] 09:14:47 nikodemus: afternoon? 09:16:28 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-202-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:17:13 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-173-246.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:00 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@80.250.159.240] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:19:37 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 09:20:22 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-51.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:21:23 -!- PrMoriarty [n=vasco@APuteaux-754-1-32-63.w90-44.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:23:58 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.77.123] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:28:07 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 09:28:49 Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.162.162.22] has joined #lisp 09:35:47 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:36:23 onlisp page 37 says, (defun exclaim (expression) (append expression (list 'oh 'my))) is better than (defun exclaim (expression) (append expression '(oh my))). can someone please explain me why? as in isn't '(1 2 3) the same as (list 1 2 3)? 09:37:00 <_3b> '(1 2 3) is a literal, and so should not be modified 09:37:29 _3b: they're not interchangeable? 09:37:50 <_3b> no, LIST makes a new list every time 09:38:01 <_3b> QUOTE might reuse the same list, or even part of the source code 09:38:01 spradnyesh: if you later change the list, it will change the definition of your exclaim function. 09:38:19 const char *foo = "bar" vs strdup("bar"), if you speak C. 09:39:33 thanks guys 09:39:54 things are a little clearer now 09:41:27 dull question, but does `(1 2 3) make a new list each time? 09:41:52 <_3b> maybe, but i wouldn't count on it 09:42:07 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-12-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:42:22 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-12-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:25 <_3b> (though without any #\, it might be specified to be the same as '(1 2 3), not sure without reading the spec) 09:42:54 What ` does exactly is very implementation dependant. It may probably even do something different depending on what's inside the `. 09:43:41 s/may probably/certainly/ :-) 09:44:15 CL is a hack 09:44:24 what makes you say that? 09:44:25 clhs backquote 09:44:25 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for backquote. 09:44:51 tic: I just see it as the C++ of lispy langs 09:45:06 Quadrescence, what specifically makes it a hack? 09:45:15 clhs ` 09:45:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 09:46:02 tic: My opinion of it. But more specifically, it's big. I know it was designed to be big. But, it is very big, and ... it just seems like it could be cleaned up a lot. This is a very poor explanation for my reasons. 09:46:33 Quadrescence, so it's not as much of a "hack" as it has a large vocabulary, perhaps? 09:47:03 tic: could be a different meaning of hack btw 09:47:16 tic: I guess "hack" isn't the right word exactly. It doesn't describe CL entirely well. But I think some parts are just very messy. 09:47:33 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.162.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:47:58 I obligatorily have to mention LOOP 09:48:07 so what would you consider to not be a hack in the lispy langs? 09:48:09 i love loop 09:48:26 and your opinion is not new and isn't interesting 09:48:41 stassats`: I am very well aware. 09:48:52 Gertm: In my opinion, maybe an earlier Scheme. 09:49:03 *m4dnificent* thought hack must've meanth clever hack, as many things seem like that (bending the rules a bit) 09:49:05 so the recent PLT releases don't qualify? 09:49:26 I don't think "modern" Schemes are very unified. 09:49:46 stassats`: dosen't say anything about (not) reusing the results. So it may indeed reuse it. 09:49:48 1/2 the implementations do one thing, another half do another. r6rs is incompatible with previous ones. 09:49:57 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 09:50:16 Quadrescence: that's the whole idea of a spec! that's part of the briliance! if you want one implementation, just use *one* 09:50:29 m4dnificent: I agree completely. 09:50:31 Quadrescence: sorry, that seems to have agitated me :( :P 09:50:33 That's what I like about CL. 09:50:59 (among other things, like the readtable, and stuff like that) 09:54:58 Maybe later this week or something I'll write a little essay on what I've been working on, and kindly ask #lisp to critique. 09:56:39 Quadrescence: the standard specifically allows the definition of subsets of Common Lisp. You could take an implementation and remove all you want to remove, and you could still call it a "subset of Common Lisp as specified by ANSI X3J13". 09:57:25 matimago: I think I'd venture too far away, like going back to a "lisp-1" and such. 09:57:35 <_3b> hmm, looks like i probably can't get .svg opacity right with vecto either :( 09:57:37 ie. the authors of Common Lisp knew perfectly well it was too big for you, and they allowed you to define a package "QUADRESCENCE-CL" from which you may export only what you want. 09:57:51 Quadrescence: ah, lisp-1 is this way -> #scheme 09:58:04 matimago: ;) Scheme isn't very... ... 09:58:27 clojure? arc? 09:58:41 I like a lot of arc's ideas 09:58:42 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:47 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 09:58:54 Or general...way of doing things. 09:59:00 Clojure has a cool logo. :> 09:59:25 <_3b> me likes the idea of trying to reduce token count in arc, but not shortening names (not that i've actually looked at it) 10:00:45 _3b: One thing I stole from arc is a shorthand for lambdas: (lambda (x1 ... xN) xxx) ==> {xxx} (where x1...xN are represented via $1, $2, etc) 10:01:41 ... perl? 10:01:58 Well, arc actually uses the underscore. 10:02:13 stassats`: Maybe. 10:02:28 <_3b> yeah, stuff like that, though i probably wouldn't use that sort of thing in CL unless it was a huge project 10:02:32 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:02:35 bob_f_ [n=bob@mail.phgroup.com] has joined #lisp 10:03:16 you could take common lisp, and build a complete OO version on top of what we have now... You'd still have all the flexbility and speed of the current CL, as you're just providing some other package (say we name it oolisp (because yes, any name would be bad)) 10:03:40 It's just to make things like (map {+ $ 2} '(1 2 3 4)) succinct. 10:03:43 it would be cool if there were some reader that would be case-sensitive 10:03:48 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:04 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 10:04:06 m4dnificent: I actually have written a bytecode compiler/interpreter in C for my stuff. 10:04:12 isn't one of the commercial lisps case sensitive if you want it to? 10:04:19 <_3b> aren't all of them? 10:04:47 Gertm: you can write |foo| to get it to be case sensitive... and you can probably make a new reader that handles it 10:04:48 <_3b> typing all the imported symbols in upper case would be annoying though :) 10:05:24 _3b: if we're going to write a complete OO layer on top of CL, then every function should be rewritten (probably trivially) in any case, so that could be fair 10:06:07 <_3b> m4dnificent: (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve) ? 10:06:21 yay \o/ 10:07:02 _3b: mind you, I'm not intending to actually write that layer. I'm quite happy learning CL :) It could simply be more newbie-friendly 10:07:56 <_3b> don't forget all the keywords 10:08:16 having some functions as generic functions (like +) would be nice... (and is alright with ANSI, afaik) 10:09:09 clisp has modern mode: clisp -modern 10:09:21 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.162.22] has joined #lisp 10:09:27 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:11:51 *_3b* seems to be gerring radial gradient radii wrong somewhere 10:12:38 -!- yoonkn [n=yoonkn@210.108.170.71] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 10:13:25 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-6.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:14:40 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:15:41 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.162.22] has quit ["Log this!"] 10:17:45 -!- bob_f [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:23:11 -!- Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.162.162.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:26:55 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 10:27:11 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:27:16 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181149007.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:28:37 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.133.213] has joined #lisp 10:31:50 -!- CrazyEddy [n=superter@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:32:44 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181149007.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:34:54 CrazyEddy [n=gunl@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 10:35:11 -!- dys` is now known as dys 10:39:09 frobar [n=ulf@h-60-171.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 10:39:45 is there some neater way to wrap up the format function than something like (defun myformat (msg &rest vals) (apply #'format `(t ,msg ,@vals)))? 10:40:29 (apply #'format t msg vals) 10:40:47 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1D644.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:41:28 doesn't apply expect a list of the arguments? 10:41:37 clhs apply 10:41:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 10:42:42 frobar: (apply #'+ 1 2 (list 3 4)) 10:44:17 (apply #'format t "test") gets me '*** - APPLY: dotted argument list given to # : "test"' 10:44:33 frobar: the last argument to apply must be a list 10:44:38 read the above link more carefully 10:44:39 ok 10:45:48 thanks for the help :) 10:53:11 segv [n=mb@p4FC1EE96.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:58:06 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 10:58:10 Good afternoon! 10:59:02 heya, spiaggia! 11:00:34 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 11:02:32 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 11:05:09 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:10:52 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:36 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:14:27 c|mell [n=cmell@y192028.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:15:33 I have a hunchentoot problem. 11:16:27 When I try to display my front page I get a lisp error "0 is not a string" 11:16:43 I put a break in the code. Then continue. 11:16:52 Now the code works. 11:17:15 Obviously a race condition. 11:17:57 Anyone experience the same? Do you have a explanation? 11:18:36 I am not that familiar with hunchecntoot internals. 11:19:09 <_3b> what does the code look like? 11:19:18 s/hunchecntoot/hunchentoot/ 11:21:02 _3b: http://paste.lisp.org/+1QBY. 11:21:39 -!- CrazyEddy [n=gunl@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:26:08 is there a computer vision library for cl? 11:26:46 CrazyEddy [n=amyrol@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 11:27:53 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-2d39c1769377d10a] has left #lisp 11:28:19 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:28:26 <_3b> younder: anything useful in the backtrace from the error? 11:28:28 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:28:32 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:29:55 _3b: No backtrace. Huncentoot reports the error on either the web page or in the blog. 11:31:00 I've set it to just use the web page at the moment. (faster than looking up the entry in the log) 11:32:17 younder: http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/tbnl-devel/2009-April/004688.html - use these forms and debuggable-acceptor to get a real debugger 11:33:31 antifuchs: thanks! I've aske before, but didn't get an answer. 11:33:57 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.36] has quit ["leaving"] 11:34:48 -!- xan_ is now known as xan 11:35:18 yeah, it's not immediately obvious how to do it. the code in the message will give you debuggers on terminated connections, as well. you can just leave out process-connection and it'll show debuggers only for real lisp errors 11:41:11 foo1: not that I know of. You may want to double-check in cliki. If you're going to build one, good luck! 11:41:26 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 11:41:56 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-46-58.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:44:14 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:48:53 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6B551.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:21 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-6-39.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 11:52:58 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 11:55:09 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-205.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:55:23 hey antifuchs any way of configuring hunchentoot for high performance mode 11:55:36 as far as i can see it starts one thread per connexion by default 11:55:56 caching proxy? 11:56:46 no, i want to compare it against http://github.com/vii/teepeedee2/tree/master to prove how great tpd2 is 11:57:06 hunchentoot wasn't written with performance in mind 11:57:08 (it is faster than any other dynamic webserver i benched against) 11:57:35 well fair enough, if you want to try the world's fastest dynamic webserver 11:57:40 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087F8E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:53 which happens to also be totally written in common lisp, let me present tpd2 11:59:29 *stassats`* is usually suspicious to claims like "world fastest/betst/etc." 12:00:29 well give me a counter example, varnish is faster but not really a webserver 12:00:42 -!- mogunus [n=marco@wsip-70-184-14-138.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:00:58 depends on your definition of dynamic, I'd say. 12:01:48 How many qps do you get? :) 12:03:59 c|mell: how does it perform compared to Yaws? 12:05:53 ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 12:07:00 c|mell: you should ask H4ns. he's the hunchentoot performance guru around here : 12:07:32 i haven't seen him for a while 12:08:58 c|mell: tpd2? 12:09:01 -!- younder [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has left #lisp 12:09:09 younder [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has joined #lisp 12:09:49 Ragnaroek [i=8f5df9f7@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fd477a5670bc46b7] has joined #lisp 12:10:22 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:11:04 c|mell: does it have features like sessions? 12:11:56 i see it uses epoll, so it's for linux only? 12:13:08 stassats`: the slides linked to on github point out that it's linux only (which is not necessarily a bad thing) 12:14:12 *stassats`* doesn't see a point in writing world's fastest web server 12:14:20 only if for the hell of it 12:14:32 doesn't really matter, I guess. It could be nice 12:14:42 having a quick response time can be a number one priority 12:15:06 well, anyway you need a caching proxy 12:15:35 dynamic stuff isn't always cachable (and yes, it may give a speedup too) 12:16:08 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.133.213] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:17:36 i don't know, how much time will be spent on generating content itself for a website where you do care about performance? i guess this would be a bottleneck 12:17:48 cashing has brought me into grief before. I always put a (no-cache) in front of dynamically generated content. 12:18:19 (hunchentoot) 12:18:31 -!- piyush [n=piyush@122.170.2.185] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:19:39 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:21:50 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:21:54 s/cashing/caching/ 12:22:47 sigh 12:26:59 -!- tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:27:52 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-81-1.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:33:03 leon [n=leon@213.87.81.148] has joined #lisp 12:36:35 is there something like 'continue' for immediately going to the next iteration inside a 'loop'? 12:37:01 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-128-242.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:40:25 blbrown [n=Berlin@71.236.25.127] has joined #lisp 12:40:49 frobar: what kind of loop? 12:41:00 a simple (loop 12:41:48 frobar: (loop (tagbody ... your body .. (when foop (go :continue)) ... :continue)) 12:42:25 i usually don't need more than IF 12:44:06 It's sometimes nicer. (when foop (go :continue)) (when barp (go :continue)) ... actually body... means that foop and barp are preconditions for the body 12:44:54 stassats`: it can be done with an if, but it gets kinda ugly 12:45:37 then split it! 12:45:50 frobar: Also consider COND 12:49:06 tcr: doesn't really help in this case 12:56:33 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A196F.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:57:20 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-123.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:01:07 benny [n=benny@i577A196F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:02:13 tsuru` [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:02 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-149-27.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:54 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279632405.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 13:15:21 frobar: (loop :named :outside :do (block :inside ... (return-from :inside) ...)) 13:25:40 which is the effiecient way to add an item to the end of a list ? 13:25:46 don't 13:25:53 foo: Why do you want to do that? 13:26:09 or if you REALLY REALLY MUST, keep a reference to the last cons of the list 13:26:28 I'd suggest adding it to the head of another list. :) 13:26:52 \quit 13:27:01 Then you can reverse it when the first list runs out, for an O(2*N) cost. 13:27:09 -!- leon [n=leon@213.87.81.148] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 13:27:14 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 13:28:59 periodically i'm getting data i want to store it in a list 13:29:14 And when do you use that list and for whate? 13:29:39 Corun [n=Corun@94-194-31-231.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:29:43 i want to see list after each append 13:29:53 By 'see', what do you mean? 13:29:53 is it better to switch to vector? 13:30:04 i want to plot the chart! 13:30:04 cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 13:30:18 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-30-105.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:30:24 Does the chart plotter care about the direction it plots in? 13:30:49 generating the chart will take more time than reversing appending the list. 13:31:22 chart plotter is also my code, i prefer the list to be like (10 20 30) rather than in reverse order (30 20 10) 13:32:32 you can always reverse it 13:32:44 why not vector? 13:33:06 it might be messier. depends on your implemention.. 13:33:19 vector adjustment is more expensive 13:34:00 oh! 13:34:43 carbocalm [n=user@64.40.185.82] has joined #lisp 13:35:10 ok. how to hold the reference of the last element of list 13:35:26 last might be useful 13:36:31 is this good : (setf (cdr (last x)) '(5)) 13:37:17 it will still traverse the whole list til the last cell whenever you do that 13:37:22 *till 13:38:20 foo1: the first element you insert will be your first 'last' cell. you will need to keep a reference to it that you update whenever you insert an element. 13:38:22 It is somewhat expensive, but the goodness depends on your metric. 13:38:38 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 13:38:38 Also, be sure not to do that twice, since '(5) produces an immutable list. 13:38:42 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2FB64.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:38:44 if you try to reach it via a reference to the beginning of the list, you'll have to traverse the entire list, which is what you're trying to avoid 13:38:48 (let ((last (last list)) (new-elemant (list 5))) (setf (cdr last) new-elemant last new-elemant)) 13:40:02 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:40:29 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181149007.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:46:45 bombshelter13_ [n=greg@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:27 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:51:14 -!- ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:52:20 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:54:44 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@y192028.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:58:02 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-202-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:59:01 foo1: notice that keeping an reference to the last cons cell of a list to append it in O(1), is exactly as expensive as building the list from the head, and reversing it at the end. There's only a little difference for very big lists, where the push+reverse option needs to scan the memory twice when we overflow the L1/L2-caches. 13:59:57 foo1: you can also expect LOOP :COLLECT / :APPEND / :NCONC to do the right thing (or else complain to your vendor or patch your free implementation ;-) ) 13:59:57 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.15.35] has joined #lisp 14:00:02 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-202-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:00:07 matimago: Well, um, if by 'exactly' you mean 'uses half as many cons operations', then certainly. 14:00:50 Zhivago: no I mean exactly, to the memory access. 14:00:58 Well, Nreverse! 14:01:54 confused more. at last should i go to (setf (cdr (last lst)) '(5)) ; will it be better than reverse 14:02:21 foo1: it won't be better than nreverse, and you MUST NOT use '(5) here, but (list 5). 14:02:33 gnarly [i=43b9b222@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-23f0c51e7619f4d2] has joined #lisp 14:02:46 matimago: yes i mean (list 5) 14:02:55 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:03:00 -!- jlf [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:03:34 <_3b> calling LAST every time you add something would probably be bad 14:03:41 (loop for i below 10 collect i into list do (print list) finally (return list)) 14:04:29 -!- gnarly [i=43b9b222@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-23f0c51e7619f4d2] has left #lisp 14:04:35 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:13 foo1: if you macroexpand the above loop, notice how a temp variable is used to refer the last cons cell and thus implement collect in O(1). 14:05:39 matimago: my requirement is; data comes in every two second; i want to append to the list and plot the chart! 14:06:03 matimago: i'm not going to process after collecting complete data. 14:06:08 Well, then as long as your list can be scanned in less than two seconds, it doesn't really matter how you do it, does it? 14:06:37 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D952.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:50 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:07:05 premature optimisation, don't let it fool you 14:07:16 The rule of thumb is that processor sizes and memory size grow in such a way that it always take about 1 second to scan the memory. There's also a rule of thumb vs. hard disk and I/O speed, so it always take about one hour to scan a hard disk. 14:07:53 ok 14:09:59 minion: memo for fusss: sb-alien:c-string-to-string isn't exported because it's an internal function and there are a couple of documented interfaces to do similar damage, one of which is octets-to-string and the other of which is to delcare alien string types with :external-format arguments and then arranging for them to be "naturalized". (What are your use-cases here, btw? I'm a little curious.) 14:10:00 Remembered. I'll tell fusss when he/she/it next speaks. 14:11:08 minion: memo for fusss: read the manual. 14:11:09 Remembered. I'll tell fusss when he/she/it next speaks. 14:13:05 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:22 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:14:41 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 14:14:43 Heh. 14:15:02 I still think we might need an sb-alien-cookbook. 14:15:53 Anyway, I'm going to go find breakfast. Back in a bit. 14:21:06 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181149007.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:23:01 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-215-133.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:03 klausi [n=klausi@port-92-193-92-137.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:24:26 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 14:24:45 milanj [n=milan@91.150.119.16] has joined #lisp 14:25:12 EasyScript350404 [n=EasyScri@200.129.136.46] has joined #lisp 14:25:19 hi everybody! 14:25:53 What was the last major non-trivial addition to the Lisp language? Was it CLOS? 14:26:06 jlf [n=user@adsl-99-137-140-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:21 does somebody here can explain to me the concept of generic function? 14:26:53 the cltl explanation is so confusing to me 14:26:56 EasyScript350404: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html 14:27:19 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 14:27:23 EasyScript350404: What programming language are you "coming" from? 14:27:35 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:28:07 stassats`: what the name of this book? 14:28:27 practical common lisp 14:28:43 meingbg i know C, and a little bit of java 14:31:17 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:31:25 deylen [n=deylen@93-97-208-39.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:33:06 EasyScript350404: ok. The link stassats` gave you should be good, it has an example from a java perspective. Just ask again if you don't understand. 14:33:18 EasyScript350404: In java, when you call obj.toString(), you could see it as a call to toString(obj), where the language would be able to dispatch on the dynamic type of obj (java only dispatches on the static types of arguments). Generic functions dispatch on the dynamic type of all arguments. 14:34:14 s/type/class/ 14:37:12 Yuuhi [i=benni@84.131.173.253] has joined #lisp 14:37:19 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:37:26 Krystof_ [n=csr21@AMontsouris-153-1-87-192.w90-2.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:37:28 meingbg: is "obj" a object or a class name? 14:38:15 object 14:38:21 wait what 14:41:02 so.. if a want to call a generic function called "FUNCTION-A" to the object "XXX" i will have to call linke this??? FUNCTION-A(XXX) ? 14:41:29 *like this 14:41:48 EasyScript350404: yes, except that lisp syntax places () in a different way: (FUNCTION-A XXX) 14:42:15 kuwabara: ok 14:42:31 now is getting more clear! =D 14:50:07 -!- deylen [n=deylen@93-97-208-39.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 14:50:31 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-143-130.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:35 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:53:12 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@AMontsouris-153-1-34-132.w90-2.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:01:34 -!- ASau [n=user@host86-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:03:54 mqt [n=tran@c-66-41-46-222.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:52 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 15:05:19 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:09:02 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.125.107] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:10:36 -!- EasyScript350404 [n=EasyScri@200.129.136.46] has quit ["EasyScript: Chamar atenção não é mais coisa só do msn! Chame atenção no mIRC use EasyScript! [www.Ea"] 15:12:35 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:13:13 -!- Corun is now known as Corun|away 15:13:39 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:14:08 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 15:16:14 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:16:21 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:17:46 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:17:58 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 15:18:09 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA873.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:18:27 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA873.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 15:18:27 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 15:19:02 Ogedei [n=user@ip54508552.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #lisp 15:19:08 elias` [n=me@resnet-pat-254.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:20:49 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:21:30 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 15:24:54 jmbr [n=jmbr@140.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:26:35 -!- Ragnaroek [i=8f5df9f7@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fd477a5670bc46b7] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 15:26:59 -!- Corun|away is now known as Corun 15:27:51 ferada [n=user@f054014077.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:28:06 *matimago* ordered AMOP :-) 15:29:26 hi, has anyone a working example of text rendering with opengl? i tried opengl-text but can't get it working :( 15:29:57 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:28 maybe http://repo.or.cz/w/cl-ftgl.git ? 15:31:14 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 15:31:38 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-173-246.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:32:37 -!- ausente [n=lhugbj@189-19-118-44.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit ["escape to island"] 15:33:15 stassats`: sounds good, thank you 15:34:08 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:34:26 rumbleca_ [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:39 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-7-203.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:49 -!- rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:35:29 Is there any reason to expect trouble if I upgrade from SBCL 1.0.19 to 1.0.28 on my web site running a bunch of other software (e.g. Hunchentoot, SLIME) of the 1.0.19 era? 15:35:58 i'd expect problems with slime 15:36:06 ejs [n=eugen@175-115-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:35 hunchentoot changed quite a bit around the time it rev'd a major number. 15:36:41 iirc 15:37:13 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 15:38:14 deylen [n=deylen@93-97-208-39.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:38:43 stassats`: Yeah. Me too, in general. Blech. 15:38:50 -!- foo1 [n=prabu@221.134.21.34] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:38:51 *gigamonkey* prepares to bite the bullet. 15:39:46 gigamonkey: one potential source of trouble is a library using one of the since-then deprecated SB-C:STACK-ALLOCATE* declarations 15:40:59 I feel like an experienced SBCL user now; first time I remembered to enable threads before building once without them. 15:40:59 grepping for "stack-allocate" should find them 15:41:38 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181149007.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:44:37 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:44:44 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:44:46 s0ber [i=pie@118-168-236-120.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:50 tombom_ [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 15:48:14 gigamonkey: I think an SBCL version in that version range "broke" Slime. 15:49:27 Yeah. I just came to my senses and realized I can upgrade on my personal machine before I do my live server. 15:49:34 *gigamonkey* is the world's worst sysadmin. 15:50:06 and you could wait a few days and 1.0.29 will be released 15:50:50 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.15.35] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:50:54 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-168-236-120.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:51:04 tcr: are there any major problems with 1.0.28 that .29 fixes? 15:51:26 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.23.128] has joined #lisp 15:51:27 I'd actually have something that folks have been pounding on for nearly a month, assuming the pounding has shown any horrible problems. 15:51:35 Revert an sb-unix patch,no? 15:52:11 I'm only doing this now because my Hunchentoot server falls over a bit more often than I'd like and someone mentioned that things got a lot more stable around 1.0.23 or .24 15:52:35 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:54:54 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:55:18 gigamonkey: how old is the hunchentoot itself? 15:55:37 jdz [n=jdz@87.110.12.247] has joined #lisp 15:56:05 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 15:57:09 minon: memo for nikodemus: On the Win32 double-UWP thing, what if we changed the UWP blocks to be allocated as dynamic-extent structures instead of being packed into the stack SB? 15:57:19 minion: memo for nikodemus: On the Win32 double-UWP thing, what if we changed the UWP blocks to be allocated as dynamic-extent structures instead of being packed into the stack SB? 15:57:19 Remembered. I'll tell nikodemus when he/she/it next speaks. 15:57:24 sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:31 Amazing. I -still- forget that #\i periodically. 15:58:04 well, it's not hard to patch this with bruteforce. 15:58:05 rsynnott: if the CHANGELOG file is to be believed quite old, 0.11.1 from 2007-05-25 15:59:06 I'd really rather not upgrade hunchentoot since it looks like the APIs changed in the beg revision and I don't really want to spend the day messing about with my own code just to make it run again. 15:59:25 you can update to 0.15.7 15:59:28 stassats`: here? 15:59:38 looks like 15:59:59 oh, you'd get a nice speed boosy by updating to 0.15.7 16:00:00 stassats`: in slime-disconnect, I don't think the (when connection is needed as slime-connection should signal an error in that case 16:01:24 right 16:01:47 -!- jlf [n=user@adsl-99-137-140-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:01:48 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:02:29 stassats`: was that to me, about Hunchentoot? 16:02:42 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-175-130.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:43 gigamonkey: yes 16:03:03 Hmmm. I can't seem to find anywhere to download old version of Hunchentoot. 16:03:16 though if you do that you'll also need recent flexistreams etc 16:03:21 I actually don't care about speed--it's a very low-volume web site. 16:03:40 I just want it to stop falling over when Lisp unexpectedly quits. 16:04:13 ah, new sbcl might be helpful then? 16:04:19 any idea why it is falling over? 16:04:28 you can get it from darcs http://common-lisp.net/~loliveira/ediware/hunchentoot/ 16:04:55 (as well as other older dependencies http://common-lisp.net/~loliveira/ediware/ ) 16:05:01 *rsynnott* had such a problem for a while; embarassingly, it was caused by a poorly-implemented bbcode parser running away and allocating memory forever 16:05:14 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:05:18 rsynnott: no idea. 16:05:42 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:05:52 -!- tombom_ [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:06:39 (also had a problem with the weak hash used by elephant's caching thingy being apparently not as weak as all that :) ) 16:07:50 -!- deylen [n=deylen@93-97-208-39.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 16:07:54 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:08:21 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 16:08:45 bhyde [n=Adium@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:52 -!- bhyde [n=Adium@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 16:09:10 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-78-239.w83-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:11:10 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:13:47 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-29-184.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:19 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-7-203.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:18:07 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 16:19:08 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 16:19:25 Could it be that port 0 means "select a free port for me" for a socket bind? 16:19:40 tcr: yes 16:19:41 konr1 [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 16:20:10 good to know, i was seeking for that 16:20:24 Right your test case is broken 16:20:55 Is there a way to replace the standard function lookup machinery? 16:21:01 In sbcl, that is. 16:21:06 tcr: it should work for any of the two ports of a socket 16:21:13 meingbg: What do you mean? 16:21:15 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.23.128] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:21:24 although one seldom needs to connect to a random port 16:21:39 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-7-203.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:43 minion: babel 16:21:44 babel: Babel is a charset encoding/decoding library, not unlike GNU libiconv, but completely written in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/babel 16:22:43 tcr: When executing, the first item in a list is supposed to designate the function or macro to be called. I suppose there is some kind of expression-to-function translator somewhere. If so, can I modify it? 16:23:02 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:23:07 sure you can, source code of sbcl is open 16:23:09 stassats`: Also after each asynchronous command you have to use `slime-sync-to-top-level' 16:23:10 -!- qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:23:16 minion: alexandria 16:23:16 alexandria: Alexandria is a collection of portable public domain utilities. http://www.cliki.net/alexandria 16:24:08 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 16:24:36 stassats`: I know it's open source:) I was more going for how... I'm looking at the def-ir1-translator function, but I don't really understand it. 16:24:51 minion: trivial-features 16:24:51 trivial-features: trivial-features ensures consistent *FEATURES* across multiple Common Lisp implementations. http://www.cliki.net/trivial-features 16:25:02 meingbg: but why would you want to do this? 16:27:12 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 16:27:43 def-ir1-translator? 16:28:15 nyef: depends. For a lisp-1-alike, you'd have to dig deeper. 16:28:19 stassats`: Mainly as a computer-linguistic experiment, to get the feel for really how programmable lisp really is. For example, I could want to enable macros (which would be expanded to lambda forms) as a function designator, or just the unicode  as a synonym for lambda. 16:29:26 lambda as a synonym for lambda would be better done in the reader. 16:29:28 meingbg: For the latter, make it a non-terminating reader-macro. 16:29:46 nikodemus: Busy? 16:31:09 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Success] 16:31:48 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:04 nyef: Do you mean a reader macro installed on '('? 16:33:31 No, on whatever character it is that didn't show up in my IRC client. 16:34:37 xml-mixed-mode had something similarly cute with a reader for #\< that parsed out < and <= as symbols and almost anything else as an XML tag. 16:34:38 greek lambda 16:34:45 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78.59.166.221] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:34:52 -!- rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:34:54 Well, I figured that's what it was, but since I can't -see- it. 16:35:28 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 16:35:33 it's 2009, get unicode support and good fonts! 16:35:34 meingbg: I once hacked lambda macros into sbcl but the implementation was only proof-of-concept. 16:35:50 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@140.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:36:08 stassats`: keyword being unicode. 16:37:50 tcr: Did you publish your conceptual proof? 16:40:04 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:41:08 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:46:32 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 16:47:12 meingbg: No, it's not that difficult to add. Perhaps I'll try myself at it again on occasion. 16:47:20 -!- delqna [n=delqna@p54A36722.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:47:41 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:49:56 someone a long while back gave me some links on the structure of contents of emacs buffers, i.e. how emacs represents attributes such as font and color applied to text 16:51:20 is there anyone here who knows about stuff like that? 16:51:30 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-48.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:52:03 it was a vector of plist start end string 16:52:13 something like that 16:52:29 -!- Corun is now known as Corun|away 16:53:15 http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Text-Properties.html#Text-Properties ? 16:53:25 and it's off-topic 16:54:19 sorry, I could remember if it was actually emacs or some other editor, but it's a lisp program I'm working on of course 16:54:25 stassats`: unless manic12 is going to reimplement Emacs on CL. ;-) 16:54:45 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@76.111.12.116] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:54:54 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:55:26 I'm actually working on a window stream for a REPL, but it does have some things in common with editors 16:55:35 gigamonkey: we already have climacs 16:55:43 and hemlock 16:55:49 stassats`: so what's one more? 16:56:15 tcr: Would you do it with reader macros or more low-level sbcl hacking? 16:56:22 gigamonkey: I may get there at some point! that would be cool. 16:56:57 tseug [n=tseug3@cpe-70-112-21-137.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:57:08 jho [n=jh@unaffiliated/cene] has joined #lisp 16:59:10 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:59:17 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:01:34 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:01:51 So that wasn't too bad. Upgraded SBCL, SLIME, and CFFI and I seem to be back in business. 17:01:55 Thanks guys. 17:02:26 Oh, and of course had to install three new libraries to satisfy CFFI's dependencies. 17:02:40 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-106-138.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:03:15 manic12: http://www.finseth.com/craft/ might be of interest to you, then. 17:03:45 ok, ELS 2009 registration and travel arrangements made 17:03:45 nikodemus, memo from nyef: On the Win32 double-UWP thing, what if we changed the UWP blocks to be allocated as dynamic-extent structures instead of being packed into the stack SB? 17:03:53 i'm always so timely with this stuff 17:04:11 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [] 17:04:34 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 17:04:44 jlf [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 17:04:47 nyef: i think that would good, but last time i tried to look at it i got a headache 17:06:44 nothing insurmountable, i think, just the way IR1 & IR2 both have special knowledge of UWP makes it a bit harder to sort out 17:09:11 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-215-133.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:30 Yeah, I took a look and couldn't make any real headway either. 17:09:38 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:40 thanks stassats, that's probably what I was looking for 17:10:32 i feel iffy about using sb-alien::c-string-to-string, as it's an internal symbol and could get deprecated; is there something sanctioned or a better way to do this? 17:10:32 fusss, memo from nyef: sb-alien:c-string-to-string isn't exported because it's an internal function and there are a couple of documented interfaces to do similar damage, one of which is octets-to-string and the other of which is to delcare alien string types with :external-format arguments and then arranging for them to be "naturalized". (What are your use-cases here, btw? I'm a little curious.) 17:10:32 fusss, memo from pkhuong: read the manual. 17:10:44 -!- Corun|away is now known as Corun 17:10:58 *fusss* feels stupid. should have said "hi" first. 17:11:16 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-89-214.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:18 fusss: Hello. 17:11:31 hey nyef, cheers for all the help mate! 17:11:39 look, a real AI 17:11:40 No problem. 17:11:50 stassats`: Heh. 17:11:57 jmbr [n=jmbr@140.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:12:00 ruediger [n=ruediger@62.47.139.7] has joined #lisp 17:12:14 alright, i gotta get off again to start working 17:12:20 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:37 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:13:09 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:15:20 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 17:16:50 Zenton`` [n=user@77.210.55.221] has joined #lisp 17:19:12 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-123.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:01 hefner: Ping? 17:23:08 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:23:19 -!- carbocalm [n=user@64.40.185.82] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:25:02 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:28:08 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:28:25 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:30:33 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-12-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:36 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:32:16 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-12-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:32:39 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-12-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:27 is anyone planning to put ths sbcl release hat on? 17:35:33 it's not me this month 17:36:14 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:36:36 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 17:37:29 -!- ak70` [n=user@195.158.89.203] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:37:46 -!- klausi [n=klausi@port-92-193-92-137.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:38:07 Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-12-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:36 saikat__ [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-158-16.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:15 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-30-105.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 17:41:45 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-162-42.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:43:41 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-12-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:46:29 -!- birdsbite [n=user@74.196.9.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:47:58 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-12-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:59 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-30-105.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:52:46 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:54:42 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:54:46 birdsbite [n=user@74.196.9.26] has joined #lisp 17:55:50 sehku [n=sehku@h149.190.22.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:03 -!- willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:56:45 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-89-214.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:57:49 I'm sorry to be a bother, but I came here looking for some help 17:58:13 can anyone point me to some documentation on the topics of multithreading and ncurses? 17:58:15 lagenar [n=lucas@190.178.193.21] has joined #lisp 17:58:21 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-100-68.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:36 on unix /w sbcl, how do i encode a literal carriage-return + newline in a string? 17:58:56 (from the stupid things to get hung up on archive) 17:59:02 hm... 17:59:23 (setq (concatenate 'string (string (code-char 10)))) 17:59:37 what's the char for carriage return? 17:59:41 10 is for newline 18:00:00 Fade: sigh, I've done it once... but #\Linefeed exists, I think... CR, I forgot (this was easy) 18:00:08 #\Return 18:00:19 ah, yes 18:00:27 thanks nyef 18:00:31 Or just use flexi-streams. 18:00:43 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-81-1.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:00:55 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-173-208.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:02 (Yes, line-ending style in external-formats is one of the problems with SBCL/Win32.) 18:01:39 this is one of those things that makes me curse every time I have to deal with it, and then after i've dealt with it, i promptly forget everything I had to learn to deal with the problem. 18:02:01 psheldr [n=user@217.13.173.18] has joined #lisp 18:02:06 frobar_ [n=ulf@h-60-171.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 18:02:35 Oh, like darcs or CVS or SVN? 18:03:08 I do sort of envy the trasparent xlation between line ends on python. 18:03:37 The problem with anything transparent is getting a good look at it when it goes wrong. 18:03:47 true 18:04:01 but in 99% of the cases, it's in that 'just works' category. 18:04:15 maybe more. 18:04:55 also, if you tend to forget it in any case, it might as well work in the beginning 18:05:09 -!- lagenar [n=lucas@190.178.193.21] has left #lisp 18:05:34 I almost never deal with windows; this particular case is for manually building a header in a drane bammaged web API. :P 18:05:41 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1EE96.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["quit"] 18:05:56 segv [n=mb@p4FC1EE96.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:10 drane bammaged!? 18:06:28 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:24 psheldr: Thank the Reverend Spooner for that. 18:09:16 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-81-1.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:09:47 ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:31 -!- saikat__ [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-158-16.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:10:31 How can I unload a package? 18:10:57 clhs delete-package 18:10:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_del_pk.htm 18:11:31 thx 18:12:11 meingbg: what do you mean with "unload"? 18:12:58 -!- frobar [n=ulf@h-60-171.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:14:22 -!- UnwashedMeme1 [n=nathan@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:14:55 tcr: I have a package that probably have things defined in the wrong order, so it compiles just fine if it's already loaded, otherwise not. I don't want to restart the image for every re-compile to make sure the package can be loaded. 18:15:59 Yeah, delete-package should be a good start for that. 18:16:31 You'll probably leak memory abominably on SBCL, but whatever. 18:16:54 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 18:17:03 the objects wouldn't get GC'd? 18:17:07 meingbg: (do-symbols (s :pkg) (cond ((boundp s) (makunbound s)) ((fboundp s) (fmakunbound s))), and then delete-package may be better 18:17:18 Is there something like MEMBER that works on sequences in general? 18:17:23 Fade: no, symbols are not deleted 18:17:31 tcr: Wouldn't help the compiler infodb. 18:17:36 may not work on constants, also you may want to add a clause for classes 18:18:24 you may want to request sb-ext:scratch-package on sbcl's bug tracker as a wishlist item 18:18:37 tcr: ok, so delete-package basically deletes only the package itself, but nothing inside it? 18:20:15 Hrm... Actually, fmakunbound does a lot of clearing out of stuff from the infodb. 18:20:23 (Well, globaldb.) 18:20:51 Not complete, but... 18:21:22 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-208-88.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:22:44 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-183-122-143.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:58 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-208-88.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:43 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 18:27:00 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 18:27:10 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:27:48 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsldf191.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:28:47 FIND, bgs100 ? 18:29:10 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-178-116-152.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:29:19 Didn't we discuss this recently? It's a combination of POSITION and SUBSEQ. 18:29:20 no, position 18:30:22 beats me .. i don't see talk about it .. yeah, position is probably closer though 18:31:01 Recently as in "this month", perhaps. 18:31:07 Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:31:18 several days ago, even 18:34:15 klausi [n=klausi@92.193.92.137] has joined #lisp 18:36:51 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.125.107] has joined #lisp 18:38:45 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-81-1.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:40:10 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:43:05 r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 18:43:08 SBCL is still single-threaded only on OS X/PPC, right? 18:43:41 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Client Quit] 18:44:18 -!- r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Client Quit] 18:44:33 nyef: pong 18:44:41 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 18:45:10 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 18:45:53 ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 18:47:18 silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-070-071.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:07 jao [n=jao@240.Red-83-46-43.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:13 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Success] 18:50:19 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:50:21 -!- beach` is now known as beach 18:50:39 Good evening. 18:51:56 beach: read the ./ article? 18:53:03 oh, LISP PR 18:53:45 there seem to be some lispers around there to handle misconceptions about the language. I thought beach had somewhat more experience in solving them :) 18:54:31 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 18:54:34 like how to spell Lisp? 18:55:13 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:55:55 m4dnificent: Nope! Didn't read it. I guess you are saying I should? 18:55:59 actually, isn't lisp the oldest high-level programming language? is fortran concidered to be high-level (or do I have history mixed-up?) 18:56:17 fortran is high-level enough 18:56:54 Being high-level is of course relative to some lower-level stuff, so I gues Fortran is/was high level. 18:56:58 gigamonkey: yeah 18:57:06 beach: nothing special there, just comments that probably want good answers (if not now, then tomorrow) :) The comments made me think of your lang.java frustrations 18:57:40 *stassats`* wouldn't seriously care about /. commentators 18:57:43 m4dnificent: Sure, and I didn't have the energy to answer those either. 18:58:16 /. has more readers. But I could've thought of that 18:58:27 *about 18:59:11 m4dnificent: I am preparing to spend almost a week in Milan, surrounded by nice Lispers, good food and good wine. I think I'll have to pass on this one. 18:59:28 m4dnificent: which article are you talking about? 18:59:37 Fade: http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/25/1553220 19:00:29 beach: well, have fun there! I'm jealous whatsoever, no reason to be, right? no I'm not. Can't be, it's simple the perfect world that I'm missing... who would want that? 19:00:39 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.125.107] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:00:39 s/jealous/not jealous/ 19:00:47 m4dnificent: :) 19:01:07 *stassats`* isn't really glad to see such post about Lisp 19:01:18 stassats`: why not? 19:01:36 the followup story will be "Do all LISP programmers have delusions of grandeur?" 19:01:38 because this speed is very subjective 19:01:40 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:01:44 ah, i read this article the other day. didn't bother to look at the comments. 19:01:59 i can't imagine it being studded with gems. :) 19:02:29 hefner: short answers: no, there is no delusion, only grandeur 19:02:32 oh dear, spelling it LISP and considering it a functional programming language. 19:02:41 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:18 I guess all lisp stories would be good, as any story that comes round drives some minor attension to it... having people hear about it is a good thing 19:04:39 m4dnificent: Yeah, one would hope that nutjobs like "Series Expansion" would be such obvious frauds on c.l.j.p that people would convert just because of him, but I'm afraid not. 19:04:49 every time I see an article about lisp on a site like /., all the commentary seems to bring lunatics from the C/Java/whatever camps out of the woodwork. 19:04:58 you'd think we were a threat or something. 19:05:11 we are! 19:05:40 we need some killer-story, like "Obama chooses Lisp", or something 19:06:00 i miss the old days when part of whitehouse.gov ran on a symbolics machine. 19:06:19 *Fade* snaps his suspenders and combs his beard 19:07:47 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-142-31.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:22 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:10:31 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-183-122-143.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:11:08 Evening, beach. 19:11:35 comp lang j.p, what's jp? 19:12:00 It's too bad human beings typically implement a case-insensitive reader. Otherwise we could avoid this confusion between LISP and Lisp. 19:12:03 something with java? 19:12:05 tic: java.programming. 19:12:07 Oh. 19:12:14 as opossed to java.brewing, heh? 19:12:17 As apposed to c.l.j.w 19:12:27 whining? 19:12:28 -!- birdsbite [n=user@74.196.9.26] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:12:40 -!- cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:12:42 stassats`: I was thinking of something ruder but that's probably good too. 19:14:29 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@140.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:14:40 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:14:56 rwiker [n=rwiker@120.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:14:59 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-251.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:16:10 mogunus [n=marco@wsip-70-184-14-138.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:35 -!- rwiker [n=rwiker@120.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:18:59 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:20:12 Ppjet6_ [n=ppjet@ivr94-11-88-187-39-7.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:31 -!- Ppjet6 [n=ppjet@ivr94-11-88-187-39-7.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:20:49 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-123.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:21:28 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 19:21:42 I assume that most java-devs really don't have a clue about lisp... it is a scary language to look at when all you've seen is C/Java/C++ I assume they are not simply nutcases, they might as well be somewhat respected devs in their own zoo 19:22:22 -!- ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 19:22:37 you can assume that almost no devs in any language have any clue about lisp. 19:22:38 ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 19:23:06 when scheme isn't even a teaching language any more, the world will become a sea of java programmers. ;) 19:23:07 Lisp is our secret weapon! don't reveal it 19:23:32 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 19:23:39 -!- mega1 [n=mega@53d83920.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:23:51 *Fade* mumbles something about a more elegant weapon from a more civilised age. 19:23:58 :-) 19:24:00 xkcd ftw 19:24:09 *Davse_Bamse* hands Fade a paranthes 19:24:18 =) 19:24:22 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:35 Why cl-ppcre fail? (do-matches-as-strings (match "\u" "aaaAaaablahBLAH") (format t "~a" match)) 19:26:43 \\u? 19:27:01 I tried that as well :P 19:27:10 but what's u, anyway? 19:27:50 It should represent an uppercase character 19:27:53 Davse_Bamse: I need more ammo too! 19:28:12 So I'm wanting it to end up printing ABLAH 19:28:22 bgs100: [A-Z] may work 19:28:51 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-251.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 19:28:57 *Davse_Bamse* hands some parantheses to m4dnificent also 19:28:59 :-) 19:29:01 m4dnificent, yay 19:29:04 m4dnificent, Thanks 19:29:34 wohoooow, I'm ready for the front now! I'm going to grow bloodcrazy on java programmers one day 19:31:26 bgs100: you may like scan-to-strings too 19:32:23 -!- jao [n=jao@240.Red-83-46-43.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:32:42 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:33:13 \u is not a part of reg-exp, it just uppcarcases the next character 19:36:51 faux` [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 19:38:34 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-16-62.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:40:16 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-251.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:41:47 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-26-85.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:43:41 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsldf191.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:43:57 (do-matches-as-strings (match "\\p{UppercaseLetter}" "aaaAalahBLA") (print match)) 19:44:06 unicode-aware version 19:44:15 (and you need cl-ppcre-unicode) 19:45:22 -!- mogunus [n=marco@wsip-70-184-14-138.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:45:57 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62.47.139.7] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:45:58 JeffFromOhio [n=chatzill@WS-ESR2-72-49-235-52.fuse.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:14 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:47:37 Would someone be willing to take a quick look at a very small block of lisp code, and answer some questions for me? I'm trying to learn LISP, and in the introduction I'm reading, there's 19:47:43 something I don't quite understand 19:48:06 lisppaste: url? 19:48:06 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 19:49:22 JeffFromOhio pasted "PLT-Scheme Quick Intro" at http://paste.lisp.org/+1QCF 19:49:40 oh well, you need #scheme channel 19:49:56 I thought the basics of scheme and lisp are the same? 19:50:07 I guess if there's a seperate channel, I can switch 19:50:33 they both have parenthesis 19:50:39 I'm trying to learn Lisp, and when I was searching around for learning lisp, a couple sites suggested Scheme as a simplified subset of Lisp 19:50:49 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:50:55 Is Scheme *not* Lisp? 19:51:00 JeffFromOhio: java vs javascript... yes they say it, no it's not that simple 19:51:20 JeffFromOhio: some consider it Lisp, some not 19:51:21 JeffFromOhio: It's a lisp, but here we mostly talk *Common* Lisp. There's a #scheme 19:51:27 scheme is a lisp, but not Common Lisp 19:51:35 JeffFromOhio: To some extent. Depends a lot on context. 19:51:44 but it certainly is quite different from Common Lisp, which we are discussing here 19:51:54 JeffFromOhio: IIRC McCarthy forbidden any language for taking the name "Lisp" as its sole name 19:52:01 Oh, well then, any suggestion on a good intro to common lisp? 19:52:14 minion: pcl? 19:52:15 here comes pcl.. :) 19:52:15 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 19:52:45 Gertm: well, it's a very sexy book :D 19:52:51 Err, ok - anything that's not a book, but just covers the basics and gives a taste of it? I'm trying to decide if I even want to get a book yet lol 19:53:02 it's true, I still read parts of it every day 19:53:09 JeffFromOhio: this book is available online 19:53:22 JeffFromOhio: the first chapter is called "Why Lisp?" 19:53:27 JeffFromOhio: You can access PCL online, and if you already know other programming language, it's a very good intro 19:53:31 Ok 19:53:42 JeffFromOhio: Not to mention it shows some astonishing examples *very* fast 19:53:43 Alright, I'll check that out, thanks 19:53:54 JeffFromOhio: sykopomp had a tutorial 19:53:56 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:54:19 JeffFromOhio: but the PCL is basically the book to read as an introductory book these days 19:54:42 So, uhh, are Common Lisp and Scheme both forks from the original Lisp? 19:54:52 after reading you can start hacking right away 19:54:54 Does anyone still use original Lisp? 19:55:22 JeffFromOhio: The first Scheme implementation was implemented in MacLisp, one of the major influences of Common Lisp 19:55:38 JeffFromOhio: they are descendants of old Lisp 19:55:48 JeffFromOhio: Do people still use BCPL? 19:56:00 uhh. . . whats bcpl? 19:56:13 C predecessor 19:56:22 oh, lol 19:56:38 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-173-208.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:56:57 alright, well, I guess I'll go read the first chapter and leave you guys alone 19:57:04 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-173-208.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:41 you absolutely must learn lisp, there is no turning back 19:58:00 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:59:14 lol 20:00:41 ausente [n=lhugbj@189-19-118-44.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 20:01:40 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:02:19 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 20:03:02 Yeah, now that you have tasted both Lisp and #lisp, there is no turning back. You will forever regret this move, because you will wish that you were as ignorant as before, but alas... 20:03:55 big journey awaits 20:04:05 beach is our cult leader. 20:04:29 *Davse_Bamse* send some paratheses as a tribute to beach 20:05:02 *meingbg* put the parens on the keyboard home row, to be able to send them faster. 20:05:13 hefner: I still haven't figured out a way to make money out of it though, so it wouldn't qualify as a "secte" in France. 20:05:46 Davse_Bamse: have you won the CL-ottery? << needs a humour-injection, it's lacking fun! 20:06:23 m4dnificent: indeed i have.. and i have like a million of ) but only a few ( 20:06:37 beach: Have you made any commercial lisp projects? 20:06:57 *beach* tries to think of a way to make the catholic church being considered as a "secte". 20:07:01 *m4dnificent* trades 5 ( to 15 ) with Davse_Bamse 20:07:12 beach is lucky inasmuch as he's ensconsed in the ivory tower. 20:07:18 meingbg: No, that's not what I am about. I am a CS professor. 20:07:39 beach: CS? 20:07:44 Fade: I wouldn't put it quite that way... 20:07:45 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:07:50 meingbg: Computer Science 20:08:02 beach: that should be a good disguise for a sect leader 20:08:46 beach: So You're not an accountant, then? :) 20:08:54 hefner: Was it you who not so long ago said that they had tried and failed to get CLX GLX working with McCLIM? 20:09:12 stassats: Never thought about that. You are giving me excellent ideas for complementing my feeble retirement in the new Thatcher-inspired dismantling of the French university system. 20:09:33 nyef: yeah, I screwed around with it for a while, I hit some difficulty where I thought a single-threaded SBCL would make things easier, and never felt like building one. 20:09:43 meingbg: I used to be, when I ran a small company. 20:09:47 Ah. 20:09:59 i am thinking of a game.. a game where you have to collect ( ) to win.. and then you can make function like (improved-harvester) and stuff :-) 20:10:26 It turns out that the GL support likes to silently do unknown stuff when passed incorrect numbers or types of arguments. 20:10:30 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:38 plus I think darcs ate my CLX tree 20:10:52 beach: Did you "upgrade" or "go back" to being professor? 20:11:33 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:12:00 meingbg: Definitely "upgrade". I used to work in the software industry and realized the pitiful state it was in, so I did a PhD, and then the natural thing was to continue as a professor. 20:12:24 meingbg: But I am simplifying a lot. 20:14:31 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 20:14:48 beach: Hmm... and just about yesterday I was thinking of going _into_ the software industry... should I think again? 20:15:33 meingbg: Think about what you really want to do, for yourself, not merely to please other people. Then decide. 20:16:24 meingbg: No, I am thinking of taking a year off from the university to go back to industry. It's a great learning experience. It is pretty much always pitiful, but you might get lucky, but at least you will know what you are talking about. 20:17:03 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:17:27 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 20:17:29 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-142-31.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:18:50 nyef: In progress. Many pros/cons to take into account. 20:18:58 meingbg: I would like to either be proven wrong and be able to teach something new to my students, or be able to tell them that what is being done in industry today is pitiful compared to what we have known to do in Lisp for many years, and we do it better. 20:19:46 beach: and you will keep us informed? 20:19:56 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:19:57 "Better", of course, being subjective. After all, which methods are making more money these days? 20:20:02 m4dnificent: Of course! 20:20:06 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-173-208.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:21:50 nyef: If you ask me, no "method" would have as great an impact as teaching French kids to touch type. But I must see this for myself before actually suggesting it. 20:22:24 -!- sehku [n=sehku@h149.190.22.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:33 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 20:22:37 -Teaching- to touch type? How painful sounding. 20:22:55 beach: What really caught my attention with lisp was, that it was used by professors, and the like. I was willing to believe that the mainstream tools was designed for the average programmer, and that I could do better. 20:23:09 s/was/were/ 20:23:30 meingbg: I am flatterred by the confidence. 20:26:05 beach: have you ever run across Kent Beck's account of reteaching himself to type? 20:26:26 *nyef* hasn't, and it sounds like it could be an interesting read. 20:26:32 After years as a professional programmer, hunting and pecking, he decided it was stupid to be so bad at something he had to do all the time. 20:26:50 So he sat down and practiced touch typing until he was completely fluent at it. 20:26:56 gigamonkey: don't think so. But then I have been touch typing for 40 years or so. 20:27:03 -!- ejs [n=eugen@175-115-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:27:51 Yeah. I'm astounded at people who program with two fingers. I'm not entierly sure but I think I saw some of my interviewees typing and they were hunt and peckers. Maybe Guy Steele and Ken Thompson. 20:27:51 I never could get past about a quarter of the keys with typing tutor programs, but hanging out on IRC and such really led me to optimize for being able to type english text fairly quickly. 20:27:58 gigamonkey: That's very impressive, and also very disturbing that it would be exceptional. 20:29:03 herr fremlin appears to be slashdotted 20:29:53 You referring to the article /. ran today about the Lisp-based webserver? 20:30:06 lispm [n=joswig@e177145223.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:30:29 yeah, and his website is Temporarily Unavailable 20:31:06 *beach* vanishes to prepare for another admin (and travel) day. 20:31:13 he's using apache as a front-end proxy .. figures 20:31:21 have a nice trip beach 20:31:36 uh oh. 20:31:46 it's never good when something written in lisp gets popular 20:31:50 this can only end in tears. 20:31:58 m4dnificent: Thanks! I take it you won't be there? 20:32:02 robsynnot [n=irchon@mobileinternet2.o2.ie] has joined #lisp 20:32:18 -!- robsynnot [n=irchon@mobileinternet2.o2.ie] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:32:45 beach: no, you're safe there 20:32:54 :) 20:33:37 Have a nice week, beach. 20:35:08 -!- Ogedei [n=user@ip54508552.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:35:22 The thing that made me youch type wad the keyboard my friends presented me with. It didn't have cyrillic letters on it, so I was forced into touch-typing russian first. 20:35:38 erm, touch 20:35:44 -!- Corun is now known as Corun|away 20:36:46 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 20:36:48 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 20:36:58 English sort of just followed, without apparent conscious effort. 20:37:08 -!- Corun|away is now known as Corun 20:37:37 heh. I learned touch-typing english from playing infocom games on a machine with too little memory to fit both the game and the german keyboard driver (: 20:38:03 -!- Zenton`` [n=user@77.210.55.221] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:40:12 I learned programming on a machine that couldn't save the programs at all. Still I didn't learn to touch type at first. 20:41:03 Mmm... My first machine took audio tapes. I didn't learn to touch type until I had a PC, though. 20:41:06 I learned careful typing with a printer terminal. 20:41:23 no screen, but a printer connected to the keyboard 20:41:37 Try hacking with the lights off ;) 20:42:17 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-6.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:42:18 there is a keyboard without characters on the keys, though 20:42:43 pkhuong: Heh. I suspect that's what led me to touch typing. Not wanting to get up to turn the lights on in the evening. 20:42:44 lispm: das keyboard 20:43:20 hte 'ultimate' version ;-) 20:43:35 lispm: fujitsu's happy hacking keyboard. 20:43:49 lispm: the ultimate version is the one with OLED an display on each key (: 20:43:56 (erm. "an OLED display") 20:45:04 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 20:45:58 the happy hacking keyboard was new to me... 20:47:06 HHK is quite nice :) 20:49:48 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:50:16 with the oled keyboard I could imagine a buffer syntax sensitive mode 20:51:08 only the keys for valid characters are displayed at any one time, and if only an open parentheses is valid, every key shows an open parenthesis 20:52:48 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-62-164.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:53:20 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:54:27 fatelang [n=user@68-184-214-75.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:54:36 -!- fatelang [n=user@68-184-214-75.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:55:12 cautiousfool [n=user@68-184-214-75.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:55:40 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:55:49 lispm: so you can type without looking at the screen? 20:57:47 if I had an expensive/innovative keyboard like an OLED keyboard, I'd be looking at the keyboard ;-) 20:58:45 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-149-27.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:00:05 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Since idle lawyers tend to become politicians, there is a certain social value in keeping them busy."] 21:00:53 I'd look further into the future 21:01:08 if only a ( is possible, the nanobots would reform they keyboard to be one big key 21:01:31 Look further to the future, the mind-reading user interface. 21:01:47 I think that comes before nanobots 21:01:51 look further, no interface, everything works by itself 21:02:15 Why would you want one of those kbd w/ oleds? You can implement context-bound input interfaces without it. 21:02:43 of course you can, but you can't change what the keys say on the fly without OLED in 2009 :-P 21:02:45 -!- silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-070-071.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:03:52 they have a design study with a keyboard without keys, but a large touch sensitive OLED 21:03:59 benny: That's right. And if you treat your keyboard with a spray-can from 2009, you won't care either. 21:04:10 lispm: that's hell! 21:04:10 which can display any kind of touch sensitive ui 21:04:33 star trek 21:05:04 I made my keyboard programmable. So every key can act as both a key and a modifier at the same time. 21:05:56 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-202-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:06:00 For example, pressing c gives a 'c', but holding it down turns my right-hand to a numpad. g give greek, d gives navigation keys etc. 21:06:02 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:06:40 that's... slow? 21:07:01 the keyboard? 21:07:38 I can't see why that would be slow... the only thing that I don't think works from that description is key-repeat so ccc-combobreaker take several clicks :-P 21:07:40 meingbg: So, when navigation keys are enabled, it's one keypress for "GO NORTH"? 21:07:52 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-149-27.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:18 benny: key-repeat works fine. 21:08:35 how can c be a key repeat and a modifier? 21:08:50 How can I put a slime repl into utf-8 mode? 21:08:51 nyef: yes. When I hold down d, ijkl are arrow keys until I release d. 21:09:59 Umm... No, no... I meant literally, one key to enter "GO NORTH" followed by a line terminator. 21:10:10 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 21:10:12 benny: If I press c, at release, it would be the last key that was pressed down. That throws a key_press event. 21:10:19 -!- psheldr [n=user@217.13.173.18] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:10:33 nyef: Yes, macros work too. 21:10:33 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 21:11:34 nyef: I have Enter+0 to print an email signature, d+8 sends 10 UP keys in a row. 21:11:57 -!- Gertm [n=user@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:12:13 meingbg: I get that part... what I don't get is if you hold down 'c' and don't do anything, how does it determine when if it should act as a modifier and potentially other keys such as hjkl will be pressed or when to repeat itself? one can't have both => cccccnumpad0 21:12:52 benny: Time determines that. 21:13:09 benny: the same as with a regular keyboard? 21:13:38 wait, I'm 20 minutes in the past, nvm 21:13:50 benny: Yes, of the system you're at. This also works over the web, so I can log in to my computer from anywhere and have this keyboard setup. 21:14:29 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-123.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:40 is that setup anywhere available? and for what OS is it? 21:14:47 over the web? 21:15:01 benny: For now it only works on sbcl. 21:15:23 benny: afaik. 21:16:06 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:41 Quadre` [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #lisp 21:16:46 benny: And, I should say, it only works as a VNC proxy. That's how it works over the web. 21:17:05 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:17:58 okay, not as interesting to me then after all 21:18:21 benny: Because it's VNC? 21:18:45 yeah 21:20:02 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:20:17 benny: What's your OS? 21:20:26 linux 21:20:39 -!- Quadre` is now known as Quadrescence 21:22:08 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:22:13 I've looked into getting it to work on linux. That's a different story, though. 21:23:30 How much of a different story, given the xvnc stuff? 21:25:45 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:27:22 Gertm [n=user@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 21:29:36 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:50 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 21:30:20 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:32:05 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:33:48 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:35:15 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:35:28 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-139-7.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:35:56 lacedaemon [n=algidus@89.202.147.18] has joined #lisp 21:36:26 -!- jdz [n=jdz@87.110.12.247] has quit [] 21:36:51 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:37:11 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-251.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:37:12 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177145223.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:37:12 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 21:37:30 nyef: Well, half of my program is about tapping into the vnc protocol, the other half is about throwing around keypressing values. The one half about the protocol would have to be extended to cover a linux protocol. 21:39:33 a what protocol? Just plug your program between the VNC server and the client. 21:39:49 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 21:40:09 That's what I'm doing. I have it running right now as I type. 21:41:07 But most users, like benny, would want to use it w/o a vnc server. 21:42:10 nyef: Which probably isn't going to be that much of a headache, but I could use a link to something describing how to catch/send key events under X. 21:42:32 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 21:42:34 hello 21:43:43 I have seen multiple 'for var = ...' clauses in a loop 21:44:17 is it possible to bind to multiple values in such a clause? 21:44:53 no, only destructuring of conses. You can use that with multiple-value-list, but it's a bit ugly. 21:46:52 pkhuong: thank you. I'll try m-v-l. 21:46:53 21:46:53 21:49:10 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:52:06 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:52:49 meingbg: Might be easier to insert at the input device layer using a uinput device or three. 21:53:34 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:53:54 *nyef* is already running something like that. It presents a wacom tablet via a uinput device, and watches for dynamic attachment/detachment of a -real- wacom tablet and forwards the events. 21:54:37 hey, nifty. 21:54:49 *hefner* is reminded to kludge up an interface to xinput 21:54:54 Yeah, hotplug, after a fashion. But it actually works. 21:55:37 Now, if I downgrade to the previous X server version, the one without "real" hotplug, I could even get all my input devices working. 21:55:37 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-0-192.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:44 *nyef* glares at the touchscreen driver. 21:56:10 *hefner* wonders if his X server still crashes when he plugs in a tablet. 21:56:16 that sounds like a much better solution to hotplugging than the current hal-dbus abomination that is required 21:56:49 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=greg@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:57:01 my definition, since hal and dbus are newfangled abominations by the forces seeking to destroy linux 21:58:11 ken [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 21:59:09 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:59:19 benny: The problem is that the device has to be configured in X and the daemon running when X starts. 21:59:20 -!- ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has quit [] 21:59:28 So it's not true hotplug, it only works for one device. 21:59:52 But yeah, I'm not quite impressed with hal. 21:59:56 but conceptually it's much cleaner 22:00:39 setting corepointer to a pseudo-device that handles inputs separately is much nicer than whatever is used at the moment 22:00:46 nyef: Maybe uinput is the way to go, but sending keyboard events isn't enough. I'll have to be able to both receive and suppress them as well. 22:00:56 hugod_ [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:01:07 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsldf191.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:01:22 meingbg: Right. you install a daemon that provides a uinput device and listens on a real input device. Forward the events you don't want to mess with and mess with the events that you do. 22:03:01 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-30-105.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 22:03:01 -!- Gertm [n=user@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:03:24 Gertm [n=user@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 22:03:41 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:04:03 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 22:04:06 -!- cautiousfool [n=user@68-184-214-75.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:04:09 I'm just now getting around to reading the first chapter of that book - got busy with some other things. Anyhow, I came across the following line: 22:04:13 "The 1980s were also the era of the Lisp Machines, with several companies, most famously Symbolics, producing computers that ran Lisp natively from the chips up." 22:04:29 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:04:49 How would that work? Does that just mean that the machines had a version of Lisp built into the ROM that the CPU read when it first booted up? 22:05:09 And that the software in that ROM would then translate the Lisp into a more traditional machine language? 22:05:13 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-30-105.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:05:53 Sort of like how the TRS-80 has Microsoft Basic in a ROM? 22:06:29 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:06:33 Well, I'm not that familiar with Symbolics Ivory hardware, but the CADR and TI Explorer series were microcoded CPUs with some special hardware support for instruction dispatch and garbage collection. 22:06:49 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:08 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:07:09 nyef: that's rediculously cool 22:07:11 i am not quite sure, but from what i've understood the lispmachines had lisp essentially down the cpu. even the cpu themselves was designed for lisp. afaik, joe marshall has some code out for the LMI if you really want to dig into the details. :) 22:07:41 minion, how do you spell ridiculous? 22:07:42 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 22:07:50 at least it has an excuse. 22:08:09 ridiculous << sorry 22:08:19 There was hardware for easy dispatch on tag bits via a jump table, some sort of instruction stream fetch thing, and the ALU had a fixnum operation mode. 22:08:54 nyef: ok, so uinput works by piping events through rather than just merging them? 22:08:56 There are CADR and Explorer emulators out ther (one of the former, two of the latter, and one of the latter in Lisp). 22:09:21 meingbg: uinput is a "fake" input device. You could use it for pulling events from a network stream, for example. 22:09:41 Essentially, a uinput device is the input equivalent of a pty. 22:10:33 daedra [n=simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has joined #lisp 22:10:39 nyef: Ok, but that isn't going to keep the real keyboard input from reaching the X server, right? 22:11:03 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:03 It is if you tell the X server to look at the uinput device instead of the real keyboard device. 22:11:05 -!- rumbleca_ [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:11:22 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6B551.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 22:11:24 nyef: Ah. Of course. 22:11:52 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:12:04 I'm very into the idea :-P 22:12:38 I'd suggest a permanent X keyboard lock, but I don't know that it would work very well, particularly given that some clients might want a temporary lock. 22:12:52 Thus, the input device layer seems more reasonable. 22:13:35 benny: heh:) 22:14:30 benny: The only problem being, that you need to be root to get a uinput device going. Right, nyef? 22:14:53 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Success] 22:15:03 rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:59 Ok, so someone needs to rething their product names. . . an IDE named SLIME. . . :grin: 22:17:23 JeffFromOhio: It's following the great tradition of making marketroids and manglement heads explode :) 22:17:54 english is a foreign language for me, so i associate slime only with lisp Slime 22:17:58 Umm... Where'd you get that idea? You just need rw access to /dev/uinput (or wherever it is). 22:18:16 *nyef* thought it was "Eddie From Ohio", not "Jeff From Ohio"... 22:18:46 Ohio must be big 22:18:46 p_l: Ah. Like "Unix" and "Plan 9 From Bell Labs"? 22:18:51 I still think Bell Labs unix group takes the cake, with "Plan9 from Bell Labs" (with at least one version of Inferno having rather... inspired graphics) 22:19:02 Actually, Ohio is pretty big 22:19:20 It's not the largest state in the Union, but. . . It's larger than some nations 22:19:22 nyef: Yes, but you need root to set it up, right? To create it. 22:19:23 Indeed. I've driven through Ohio, what, three times now? 22:19:33 meingbg: X runs as root anyway 22:19:41 meingbg: Again, no. You just need rw access to /dev/uinput. 22:19:46 Art07 [n=user@84.23.62.56] has joined #lisp 22:20:13 meingbg: It's controlled by the permissions on -one device file-. Not being root. 22:20:22 (unless you have weird things like SELinux or TOMOYO, X needs root) 22:21:21 p_l: It does? I guess it might, but the KMS stuff is likely to break that over time... 22:21:28 nyef: So if I'm at a system I don't control, I can't set the permissions on -one- device file? 22:21:46 nyef: KMS is so nice at breaking system stability right now... 22:22:48 nyef: also Linux devs seem to be very thourough and making the system a mess 22:23:35 *p_l* found a way to control access to ports 0-1023 with chmod... by chance. It was feature built-in to kernel for over ten years now 22:24:08 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-205.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 22:24:21 p_l: Yeah, KMS might not be stable -now-, but give them a few revs. 22:24:41 *nyef* is so looking forward to nVidia KMS. 22:24:52 nyef: and find it requires half a ton of XML files and badly written python daemon running :P 22:25:15 Meh. We can replace the python daemon with something that runs python instead. :-P 22:25:34 nyef: I replaced it with /dev/null. Works nice 22:25:42 I bet. 22:25:56 *p_l* is still amazed at automounter 22:26:52 -!- hugod_ [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:27:04 in the coming war between kernel mode and userland, it's good to know you'll be on the right side. 22:27:35 I'm pretty sure that most people using linux, including those who might use/need automounter, don't know about it till they try compiling a kernel... 22:29:02 *stassats* doesn't trust an automounter 22:29:19 Automounters tend to screw things up for me. 22:29:21 hefner: I have nothing against having stuff in usermode doing important system work. I'm against stuff that is badly designed and obviously doesn't fit 22:29:55 nyef: sure, but for me it removed the problem of "stale CIFS mount" that ended in reboot :D 22:29:59 Last time I interacted with one I had to re-do everything I tried from plugging the disk in to realizing that something had gone wrong. 22:30:19 nyef: what kind of automounter was that? 22:30:27 "That was an awful short copy for 40 gigs over USB 2..." 22:30:54 nyef: Ah, let me guess, gnome-volume-manager or other weird HAL contraption? 22:30:55 The sort that automatically mounted an ext3 filesystem that I wanted to get rid of, without telling me. 22:31:00 Dunno. 22:31:02 what in userland is doing important system work? I look at it rather like the mozilla situation, where you have bright people doing network and rendering code, just to end up in the hands of people who think putting your bookmarks in SQLite is a really neat idea. 22:31:23 nyef: You just reinforced my point about automounter being unknown :) 22:31:39 I'm sure. 22:31:49 nyef: automounter is mainly for networked filesystems, mounts the filesystem only when it's used 22:32:00 As I said, any time an automounter makes itself known to me, it's because it fucked something up. 22:32:11 You know, I'm amused at /. sometimes. You get an article about LISP, and inevitably one of the threads in the /. discussion becomes about whether C or Lisp is faster, but. . . if I picked up nothing else 22:32:12 old thing, since it's rare to see a unix-based office anymore 22:32:24 from my university Algorithms and Data Structures classes 22:32:50 It's that, most of the time, the biggest impact on the performance of a program is the algorithms you are using 22:33:19 use a good algorithm in any language, and it should be pretty fast, use a bad algorithm in any language, and it will bog down your computer 22:33:35 JeffFromOhio: True. It's just that sometimes O(n^2) might be faster than O(nlog n) :-) 22:33:38 JeffFromOhio: true, but serving web pages is not an algorithmically interesting problem, and in the real world you care about the constant factors. 22:34:49 hefner: the way you produce you webpage is also an algorithm 22:35:12 Yeah, I suppose. I guess for something like a web-server, it comes down to who uses the fewest O/S calls, and blasts the most bytes to the network card per milisecond 22:35:48 For something like a web-server, it comes down to who has their HTTP server running on the dedicated microprocessor on the network card. 22:36:21 (Don't think that hasn't been done. ISTR hearing that the Exo-kernel people did it.) 22:36:43 nyef: linux was damned close for some time, with "no context-switch HTTPd" aka Tux webserver :) 22:39:51 I had this idea a few years back (and I'm pretty sure some web app development environments probably do this) - the fastest way to speed up a dynamic website, seems like, is to make it as static as possible 22:39:56 What I mean by that is 22:40:36 A few years back I was developing a simple web app in PHP. I remember thinking to myself at the time, that the only time a page would change, is if a user logged in, and used one of the forms I developed to submit 22:40:42 a change to the database behind the website 22:41:11 But, my site was making a call to mysql every time anyone viewed the page. I didn't chase this, because it wasn't a priority at the time, ,but 22:41:37 I remember thinking to myself that a great way to optimize the performance of the site would be to generate the 'dynamic' page, then save it until the data changed 22:41:39 JeffFromOhio: It works :3 22:41:43 Yeah, it's a question of using the filesystem (or something else) to cache database information. 22:41:46 and just serve the basically static page 22:41:50 JeffFromOhio: http://plasmasturm.org/log/542/ ;-) 22:42:24 Tux had it nailed due to zero context switches and being capable of nearly zero-copy sending if data was already in page cache 22:42:48 -!- tcoppi [n=nuclear@57c3ed63-1294-45bd-a8e8-cdcc07cfa16f.static.grokthis.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:43:12 while the dynamic part could be executed in userland 22:43:21 tcoppi [n=nuclear@57c3ed63-1294-45bd-a8e8-cdcc07cfa16f.static.grokthis.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:43 How would tux know if it needed to run the userland part of the app? 22:44:02 lakedenma [n=irchon@32.161.116.98] has joined #lisp 22:44:38 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 22:44:46 I mean, that does sound like it would be tremendously fast -a caching httpd as a kernel module, but how did it know if the source page or data changed? 22:45:09 JeffFromOhio: You would have separate URLs for static and dynamic parts. So if dynamic code was never pointed to as static... 22:45:50 JeffFromOhio: you could also bind changes to keywords, undefine the caches for pages that 'use' any of those keywords 22:46:08 dynamic part doing updating of data, Tux serving only static stuff 22:46:25 possibly with apriopriate "Moved Permanently" responses from dynamic part 22:46:46 -!- lakedenma [n=irchon@32.161.116.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:46:57 Err, but what if someone changed the 'static' content that tux was serving, like modified index.html or uploaded a new version of a .png or something? Would tux know that the version in the cache was out of date? 22:47:21 -!- ferada [n=user@f054014077.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["good night"] 22:47:51 JeffFromOhio: Tux didn't use it's own cache. I meant that it had direct access to page cache, meaning where filesystem caches things ;) 22:47:59 oh 22:48:04 that's a cool idea 22:48:16 if you saved a new version of the file, it would be in the page cache, wouldn't it? 22:48:17 lol 22:48:28 yup. Even before it hit the disk 22:48:29 that's pretty brilliant 22:48:52 and there would be no context switches or copying of data from cache to server 22:49:22 so then, serving the data became basically a memcpy() from the page cache to the network card? 22:49:34 mjf [n=mjf@r2t133.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 22:51:32 -!- mqt [n=tran@c-66-41-46-222.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:52:10 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:52:38 JeffFromOhio: Not that good (Linux network stack can't do zero-copy *that* well), but close 22:53:13 In theory there's sendfile() call for userspace, but 1) I don't know how well it works 2) it's still a context switch 22:53:25 -!- Art07 [n=user@84.23.62.56] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:53:41 unfortunately, static file serving has fallen out of interest, except for caches for already busy websites... 22:54:01 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.150.119.16] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:54:43 p_l: Don't most large sites offload images, audio files, etc to a 'static content' server? Seems like a pretty important 'problem space' to me 22:55:50 I mean, if I need to send a logo image to 10,000+ users per minute, there's a pretty good argument for punting that off to a server running something like Tux 22:56:16 JeffFromOhio: Yeah, but my grudge was about old systems like those nice, turnkey MIPS webservers :D 22:57:02 they were designed to easily add http servers, but they were killed by onslaught of "easy" dynamic sites 22:58:48 I'm not familiar with them? Were they like very low-cost rack servers which didn't have a lot of cpu horsepower (I've always heard of MIPS processors as being quite a bit slower, but very cheap and very lower electric power usage), but could serve a lot of static content real fast? 23:00:50 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 23:02:02 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:03:50 c|mell [n=cmell@p2221-ipngn101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:04:07 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r2t133.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 23:04:21 Cobalt was the name, I think 23:04:43 Well, MIPS can be very fast. It's just that the kind of fell out of use 23:04:58 JeffFromOhio: content delivery networks are used for that AFAIK 23:05:53 JeffFromOhio: And MIPS can be made *very* small, so of course it often ends up in many embedded devices (it can be smaller in gate count than modern ARM, I think) 23:06:49 I just had an insight - something that I'm sure is old hat to all you guys - as I was reading this Lisp book. I've been reading slow, and doing other things, so I haven't made it far - just chapter 2 23:07:24 hmmm... was chapter 2 the one with a database implementation in <2k LOC? :) 23:07:29 I was reading how addition is done, with the example being given of (+ 2 3) 23:07:50 At first, my reaction was, why bother doing it differently? Why put the + first 23:07:53 then I realized 23:08:34 It's so you can apply addition to many values without having to type plus over and over again, and I'm guessing, it also allows you to apply addition to an in-memory list of values at runtime? 23:08:45 so, like (+ 2 3 4 5 6 7) 23:09:02 JeffFromOhio: by making addition a function, you can get quite a lot of nice perks 23:09:19 or (+ my-list) maybe? To add up all the elements of the list? 23:09:47 JeffFromOhio: Not this way, but it can be done by applying + to a list (or was that map?) 23:10:19 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-123.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:41 p_l: (apply '+ '(1 2 3 4)) should work 23:10:57 -!- Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:10:57 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:11:18 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-139-7.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:11:33 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-123.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:12:09 (reduce #'+ my-list) works 23:12:28 as well as apply 23:13:01 JeffFromOhio: This approach has the advantage of working for all functions that take proper arguments/types :) 23:14:52 By that, I assume you mean that instead of the + function, I could use the apply or reduce functions to process any list of values with any function that takes two arguments? 23:17:47 JeffFromOhio: apply results in one function-call. Reduce will do (+ a b) multiple times (each time taking one new element from the list) 23:20:03 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:24:09 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:26:18 Is my understanding correct, that the reason Lisp is called a 'functional' programming language, is that in Lisp, *everything* is a function? There are no keywords, operators, etc, just built-in functions? 23:26:28 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:26:38 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 23:26:47 No, it's not. 23:27:14 Lisp isn't even a particularly "functional" language, in the terms by which it's usually called such. 23:28:36 Scheme is more functional-oriented, but any Lisp worth it's salt has first-order functions (and not only that). It allows for all kinds of tricks, even without being strictly FP-oriented 23:29:09 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:29:19 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 23:29:51 oh, ok 23:30:17 in short, no one agrees what "functional programming language" means 23:30:20 JeffFromOhio: most of what people say about lisp has got little to do with it :) 23:30:37 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087F8E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:30:40 if you want very FP-oriented language, Haskell is quite nice (Clojure, too, but it's not as strict wrt FP) 23:31:00 hefner: one would agree with himself, maybe (yes, you're right) 23:32:37 where did I have that article about CPP being a *pure* functional programming language 23:32:41 I still say that "functional" means "working". 23:33:07 p_l: A *purile* functional programming language, maybe. :-P 23:33:22 I'll settle for ternary IF and not having to type "return" everywhere. 23:35:13 nyef: Well, it did fit... translate purely function language CPP into code running inside 'C' Monad, which then caused transformation into final code running on CPU... 23:35:28 excuse me, running in terms of things like CPU Monad, Disk Monad etc. :P 23:35:52 *nyef* sighs. 23:35:57 Give me operational semantics any day. 23:36:55 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 23:36:57 a language should make any programming paradigm possible... lisp comes the closest of any language I know 23:38:37 Wait CPP. . . as in the C Pre Processor? 23:38:41 yes 23:38:48 ahh, macro abuse 23:39:00 an honored tradition in C programming lol 23:39:08 JeffFromOhio: Not really, even without abuse above description still holds... 23:39:35 I think I remember reading somewhere that the first implementation of C++ was done as cpp macros. . . 23:40:04 JeffFromOhio: Not C++ macros, but Cfront did generate C code 23:40:09 *CPP 23:40:27 it would parse C++ code and spit back C 23:42:13 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:42:37 Objective-C I heard is still often done this way 23:42:53 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:43:40 Quadre` [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #lisp 23:44:51 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:45:11 -!- Quadre` is now known as quadrescence 23:45:28 -!- quadrescence is now known as Quadrescence 23:45:49 well, gotta go 23:45:56 thanks for putting up with a newb for a little while 23:46:22 -!- JeffFromOhio [n=chatzill@WS-ESR2-72-49-235-52.fuse.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 23:46:35 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 23:48:25 hi m4dnificent, still around? i just got slashdotted for tpd2 23:48:37 c|mell: yes 23:48:47 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:48:52 c|mell: congrats on the post, a friend of me notified me about it :) 23:49:19 c|mell: ##lispweb is probably better btw 23:51:25 dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 23:52:39 g06|in [n=Spitfire@cpe-71-74-84-48.insight.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:53:49 tpd2? 23:54:41 p_l: teepeedee2 from the /. post, located at github.com/vii/teepeedee2 23:55:05 p_l: basically, a (very) fast webframework 23:55:51 just looked it up 23:55:58 nyef: I've heard of tiny HTTP servers on FPGAs (just for fun) 23:55:58 i should make the pet shop demo now to see how much bullshit i am talking 23:57:09 c|mell: ? 23:57:59 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsldf191.osnanet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 23:58:14 pkhuong: Yeah, but how well do they handle IP fragmentation?