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joined #lisp 01:18:14 azathoth99 [n=g@cpe-76-174-28-249.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:18:18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqaPSX2kr7Y&feature=related 01:18:47 _JFT__ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:18:57 -!- _JFT__ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:20:37 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:22:14 buggarag` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-30-100.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:27:20 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:28:26 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:31:04 -!- Zenton`` [n=user@80.29.234.169] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:31:37 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6B33C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 01:32:22 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o antifuchs 01:34:03 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] 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auclairb [n=auclairb@dhcp180-43.residence.usherb.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 02:38:48 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:02 -!- xuanwu [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:47:29 jlf [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:51:34 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:53:36 cads [n=max@c-24-30-105-155.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:00 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:54:23 I hate you, sb-pcl::%defmethod-expander. There's probably a completely stupid error in my code, but "`(THE ,TYPE ,SB-WALKER::VAL) ... These variables are undefined: TYPE SB-WALKER::VAL" doesn't shed much light on it 02:56:58 *stassats* notices that every time he starts doing projecteuler he finds some bug in sbcl 02:57:56 stassats: project euler programs tend to not have any input. That'll easily expose issues in the static analysis passes 02:59:54 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:01:15 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 03:01:19 Greetings. 03:02:48 minion: logs 03:02:48 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 03:07:03 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:53 Good morning. 03:09:39 beach: good morning 03:11:20 *beach* is sorry they didn't write Firefox in Lisp so that he would get a restart instead of a segmentation violation. 03:12:32 firefox is slow enough without an extra dozen helpings of wishful thinking 03:13:05 an amazing piece of software, really. 03:13:24 how so? 03:13:24 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:14:18 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 03:16:40 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:17:30 what's a reasonable thing to put in a lambda-list if you don't want that value bound? like "_" in ML-like language. 03:17:56 well, it won't be ignored and you can use it only once 03:18:11 A reasonable thing to put there is a name for what you intend to ignore. 03:18:26 Then you declare to Common Lisp that you intend to ignore it by writing (DECLARE (IGNORE )). 03:18:27 I'd prefer to avoid the naming and binding entirely. 03:18:41 write your own lambda* macro then 03:18:44 Furthermore, the next person to read your code will have a rough idea of what it is that you are intentionally ignoring, in case, for example, he needs to modify your code to use it. 03:19:07 Riastradh: then he gets to spend the time figuring out wtf it is instead of me :-) 03:19:20 This also gives the next person to read your code an idea of what to he is supposed to pass there, even if it is to be ignored. 03:19:34 beach: I'm always astonished that it works so well. All the odds are against it, really (C++, web technologies, cross platform, crazy braindead UI substrate, carved from smoldering pile of Netscape Navigator remains that barely ran when they were open sourced) 03:19:38 Since you added it as a parameter, it presumably has *some* meaning; otherwise you wouldn't have added it at all. 03:19:52 Qsource: what if he is a maniac which knows where you live? 03:19:55 So give it a meaningful name. 03:19:55 when i said lambda-list, i didn't have any actual functions in mind 03:20:18 hefner: I see, yes. 03:20:19 every year, firefox does something even more insanely stupid, but through sheer force of will, it keeps moving forward. 03:20:29 Riastradh: not necessarily. it's *possible* to have an argument you know is not-worth-considering junk. though unlikely. 03:20:55 That doesn't tell the next person to read your code *why* it's such junk, kpreid. 03:21:35 Riastradh: For example, if you abuse (something more complicated to justify this, which has the effect of) REDUCE to have the use of MAP NIL, then the first argument to the reduction function is whatever you happen to return last time. so it really is not worth thinking about. 03:21:59 Riastradh: I suggest that the improbability of this scenario indicates that your advice is more relevant 03:22:05 i've encountered this "problem" several times before. the case I have right now is applying destructuring-bind to the groups of a regexp. the regexp is right there, and the to-be-ignored groups are only there for regexp syntatic reasons. all the arguments about naming it don't apply. 03:22:23 Qsource: Have a look at (?:...) 03:22:32 (that's regexp, not lisp) 03:22:32 Well, why are you using a broken regexp notation that conflates submatches with grouping, then? 03:23:29 kpreid: that may be useful, thanks 03:23:59 i've never used "perl-compatible" regular expressions like cl-ppcre before 03:24:57 -!- cads [n=max@c-24-30-105-155.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:25:36 *Qsource* wonders where to find an authoritative doc about (?:...) 03:25:49 to borrow more from perl, it appears we had an XY problem 03:26:00 Is there a standard for regexp? 03:26:09 posix 03:26:09 Qsource: since everyone imitates perl ... $ perldoc perlre 03:26:10 There are lots, aja! 03:26:11 aja: yes, posix 03:26:25 Qsource : http://oreilly.com/catalog/regex/chapter/ch04.html 03:26:28 Wonderful thing about standards, &c. 03:26:43 Riastradh: Heh. Yeah. Was wondering if one was more 'standard' than others. 03:26:54 kpreid: not to be sarcastic or anything, but "perldoc: Command not found" (i.e. i have no perl). i'll go find a box that does. 03:27:09 Qsource: http://perldoc.perl.org/5.8.8/perlre.html 03:27:21 Qsource: (I just found that as a link in the cl-ppcre manual) 03:27:26 (thanks, kpreid and jthing. i'm reading those now.) 03:27:28 Forgot that posix had bothered, though. 03:27:30 No. There is a standard definition of the concept of regular expressions (independent of their notation) among computer scientists, but that is largely ignored by programmers who couldn't tell a push-down automaton if they were beaten over the head with one. 03:27:46 Riastradh: Thanks. 03:27:52 And in the case of Perl, if I recall correctly you get even more than a push-down automaton. 03:28:17 In the case of Perl, when in doubt, assume a turing tarpit. 03:28:21 Riastradh: Luckily, you don't need a push-down automaton for regular expressions. Only a finite-state automaton. 03:28:37 Riastradh: much worse than a PDA. 03:28:45 beach, yep. But disturbingly many programmers thrust a PDA upon you when all you wanted was a flying spaghetti monster. 03:28:57 As a consequence, your programs run in exponentially more time than you hoped... 03:29:06 PDA? Monsters? Are we getting into Charles Stross's territory? 03:29:38 Riastradh: exponentially? What sort of string processing are you doing that requires only polylog time? 03:30:16 I refer of course to the exponential time taken by alternations in certain naive regular expression engines (such as, if I again recall correctly, Perl's). 03:30:50 -!- mqt [n=tran@caledonia.rh.rit.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:31:02 beach: is the latest version? 03:31:41 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 03:32:32 pkhuong: Very likely, yes. 03:33:13 pkhuong: it works, but it isn't great. I am again starting to think about implementing the FFT. 03:34:06 I changed some things since that version, but nothing that would interest you two. 03:36:05 cads [n=max@c-24-30-105-155.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:16 In addition to generic complex arithmetic improvements, I have some simple stuff to try (pre-blit the coefficients to avoid strided accesses, switch to iterative code earlier). After that, adapting the code for non-power-of-two sizes would be fun. 03:37:15 pkhuong: I am looking for an efficient way of doing radix sqrt(n) without having to allocate temporary space. 03:38:07 pkhuong: what's the problem with strided access? Cache misses? 03:38:55 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:39:56 well not misses as much as wasted bandwidth. The strides are regular enough that we can probably expect prefetching magic to do well, but it's still loading one cache line's worth of data (~64 B) to only use 16B. 03:40:35 I see. 03:42:20 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:46 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:49:20 Specialized versions for sizes 2, 4, 8, and 16 could be a big win too. 03:49:23 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:45 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:50:24 ken-p` [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 03:50:43 *hefner* learns the hard, frustrating way not to use (declare (type ...)) on symbol macros. 04:03:43 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E43DBD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:47 -!- ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:05:13 beach: it would be nice to rig up some demos with ch-image and bordeaux-fft 04:05:28 -!- Corun [n=Corun@93-97-222-75.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:05:28 and, while we're at it, compare it to my existing fftw-ffi stuff 04:07:43 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.14.31] has joined #lisp 04:08:09 hefner: just the generic changes to complex arithmetic shave 32% off. 04:08:35 (1K complex double float samples) 04:09:09 that is impressive. 04:09:47 -!- cads [n=max@c-24-30-105-155.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:10:06 slyrus: Sure. I haven't really used the FFT for image stuff, mostly for sound. 04:21:13 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E43E3E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 04:26:38 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-149-27.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:26:41 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-127-33.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:23 another 6% off from pre-blitting the strided accesses. 04:32:02 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.14.31] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:33:33 Fare: herep 04:33:33 gigamonkey, memo from hefner: I wrote an example of generating code in memory and running it, at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80633 04:35:57 -!- TekLok_ [n=TekLok@c-98-247-9-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:40:41 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.150.119.209] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:40:52 sexybaaron [n=sexybaar@c-68-42-43-61.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:44 *hefner* does not like the indentation of unwind-protect 04:52:09 51% (: 04:52:49 *hefner* is hacking up neat audio stream code 04:53:35 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.217.120] has joined #lisp 04:55:20 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.217.120] has quit [Client Quit] 05:00:12 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.95.27] has joined #lisp 05:00:36 -!- sexybaaron [n=sexybaar@c-68-42-43-61.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:00:55 hefner: thanks for that paste 05:01:57 oh, I'd been meaning to try that (and to sling some assembly code on this machine, however trivial). 05:08:09 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-129-121.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:22 pkhuong pasted "Modified FFT code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80694 05:13:01 cool, no multithreading complications. in my more recent version, I moved the fft instance into a special and initialize it lazily so I can bind a different one in each thread using my thread pool code without having to call fft-common directly. 05:13:24 pkhuong: that depends on your SSE modifications, right? 05:14:02 stassats: only inside SBCL's complex float support code. 05:14:07 on the old code, I got about 3.5x speedup on 4 cores. 05:15:54 did you create task unit on the topmost recursive calls only? 05:16:36 yeah, they were totally separate. I tended to have thousands of them piled up to do. 05:19:08 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:19:13 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 05:21:08 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:46 tritchey__ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:20 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:28:18 43% (fuse the two loops) 05:31:54 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-251.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 05:35:02 -!- tritchey__ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:36:50 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.217.120] has joined #lisp 05:36:55 neat. 05:37:57 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:46:33 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.217.120] has quit ["leaving"] 05:49:20 when mixing audio, what's the best thing to do in a bad situation - clamp to minimum/maximum when the signal clips, or just let it wrap? 05:49:21 grat! thanks a million guys. i got my stump loading with swank.. is brillaint.. 05:49:29 great! 05:50:00 -!- chuckler [n=fa@117.192.141.16] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:52:26 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.95.27] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:58:18 fawxtin [n=user@189.4.116.34] has joined #lisp 05:59:38 frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 06:00:35 chuckler [n=fa@117.192.132.193] has joined #lisp 06:01:14 *_3b* would pick clamp over wrap 06:01:59 me too, but I'm extra stringy with the cycles when hacking lisp, at least when I have the luxury of thinking about it. 06:03:18 <_3b> well, find some SSE instruction or something to clamp it for you :) 06:06:07 any ucw user/developer around? drewc? 06:06:24 <_3b> thuogh i guess you could go with wrap, so it is obvious when you need to adjust levels or something :) 06:08:37 *hefner* wonders why his mostly idle audio mixer thread seems to use more CPU once it runs for a while 06:08:38 -!- frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:08:57 frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 06:11:44 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:11:51 <_3b> overflowing a counter into bignums somewhere? (probably have to be a pretty long while for audio resolution stuff though) 06:12:43 hello 06:12:55 it'll do that by design, but only after a long time (particularly on this 64-bit machine), and not in a way that will be expensive. 06:14:04 I'll assume libasound2 is up to no good, but it's hard to tell, since running sb-sprof causes things to explode. 06:14:20 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-127-33.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:14:31 <_3b> even with the recent patches? 06:14:41 <_3b> (or patch i guess) 06:15:02 how recent is most recent? I'm using 1.0.28.27. 06:15:13 <_3b> looks like 1.0.28.56 06:16:30 _3b, be proud of me, i figured out how to draw a square with shaders and a vbo 06:16:40 <_3b> manic12: :) 06:18:34 See, now it's back down to idling at a reasonable 2-3%. Before it was at 35%, and still at 15% even when I restarted it. Spooky. 06:18:34 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:18:59 <_3b> sure it wasn't the processor slowing down or something? 06:20:07 -!- X-Scale2 [n=email@89.180.198.110] has left #lisp 06:21:11 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-0.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 06:21:11 <_3b> though i guess that probably wouldn't account for that much 06:25:34 -!- frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:26:31 jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:32:05 any particular idiomatic way to process e.g. a flat list as pairs? 06:32:31 <_3b> (loop for (a b) on list by #'cddr ...)? 06:33:09 ubunoob33 [n=ubuntu@89-180-167-254.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 06:33:21 hello 06:35:23 <_3b> or maybe (alexandria:doplist (a b list) ...) 06:35:23 -!- frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:35:27 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joined #lisp 07:38:34 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 07:38:34 vsync [n=vsync@174-24.202-68.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:38:34 piksi [i=piksi@pi-xi.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:34 rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:34 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 07:38:34 guenthr [n=unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has joined #lisp 07:38:34 herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 07:38:34 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 07:38:34 ChopperDave [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 07:39:46 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:40:11 hah, this is so awesome. playing an mp3 from lisp while hacking on the routine filling the audio buffer in real time. 07:40:11 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:40:18 I love these lisp moments. 07:41:24 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-55-73.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:45:43 (fixing the off by one error causing clicking in the audio because I used the wrong loop form, and loop was incrementing my buffer pointer an extra sample) 07:46:16 ..and hearing the clicking stop as soon as I hit C-c C-c :) 07:49:17 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-63-41.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:51:28 ThomasI [n=thomas@91-64-196-100-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:51:57 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:53:13 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:37 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-6-201.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:56:34 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 07:59:58 *spacebat* wakes up 08:00:56 in this circumstance, it would be logical to have a safe version of slime-compile-defun that didn't replace the definition if it compiled with warnings or errors, so it didn't bust the running code. 08:00:57 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.162.22] has joined #lisp 08:01:14 what's the mp3 lib hefner? 08:01:21 *_3b* just uses lots of continue restarts to handle that problem 08:01:24 tessier [n=treed@unused-105-40-113.ixpres.com] has joined #lisp 08:01:33 <_3b> though i guess that is probably harder in multithreaded stuff :) 08:02:07 my only restart right now volunteers to kill the offending audio stream, and anyway it freezes up the mixer 08:03:03 spacebat: just some cffi bindings to libmpg123 08:03:24 tessier__ [n=treed@unused-105-40-113.ixpres.com] has joined #lisp 08:03:26 -!- tessier__ [n=treed@unused-105-40-113.ixpres.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:03:29 before my nap, I was wondering about the lisp tao a bit 08:04:04 say I'm reading a list and depending on some condition, pushing the cars onto other lists 08:05:26 I can't (setq target-list (choose-the-right-list element)) (push element target-list) 08:05:54 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 08:06:58 because that just updates target-list, which is a temporary variable 08:07:52 perhaps this is clearer (let ((target-list (choose-the-right-list element))) (push element target-list)) 08:09:10 I could ((let ((target-list (choose-the-right-list-name element))) (eval `(push element ,target-list))) 08:09:27 but eval is evil, or close enough 08:09:35 that won't work either, and don't use eval. 08:11:30 I thought of using a struct that held onto the head and tail cons cells of a list, so I could 'unshift' onto the end of the tail 08:11:32 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 08:11:51 but that feels like I'm kludging around too 08:12:38 I think if not BASIC, then perl/python have mutilated my mind beyond recognition 08:12:47 err, recovery 08:13:59 that's a useful approach in some circumstances, but do you really this separation of deciding what to do versus doing it? 08:14:43 I don't know your exact situation, but normally I'd write something like (if (some-condition) (push element here) (push element there)) 08:14:58 there are a few target lists, and I'm doing some other processing based on the element each time 08:15:31 so I thought I'd keep the processing and pushing in one spot, and choose which list beforehand 08:15:52 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 08:16:11 if there's a few target lists, it might be better to store them in an array or a hash table, rather than separate variables. 08:16:32 a data structure that gives you a place you can refer to by a name or index 08:16:34 that's a good idea 08:16:46 I guess this leads to a deeper question I've been meaning to ask 08:16:55 (using random variables, you have to create that mapping yourself, which is where you're stuck) 08:17:41 in more recent languages like perl/python/ruby where most everything is a reference to a structure of some kind, those references are kindof 'first class' 08:18:03 so I wonder why places aren't first class in the case of CL 08:18:33 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-162-42.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [] 08:18:34 semyon421 [n=semyon@217.67.122.44] has joined #lisp 08:18:45 Those things really arent comparable. 08:19:33 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:53 Most languages are like Common Lisp with places removed (though I admit I know neither Perl, Python, nor Ruby. 08:20:46 ah, then I'm interested to know what other languags you're used to 08:21:23 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.148.222] has joined #lisp 08:21:25 I'm confused. What doesn't (let target-list (choose-list) (push element target-list)) work? 08:21:28 spacebat: Me? Right there I was thinking of Java, Caml, etc. 08:21:58 jbjohns: Because that's not the syntax that is allowed for LET. 08:21:59 I guess because CL allows implementations to store values directly into cons cells, not every atom is going to be a reference to an object 08:22:13 spacebat: Do you really mean first class places in the sense of something like a pointer to a variable in C, or are you really thinking of the fact that you're dealing with pointers to cons cells rather some self contained "List" structure? 08:22:16 ok, paren errors asside, why doesn't it work 08:22:17 spacebat: Wow! You are confused. 08:22:33 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-81-1.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:22:40 (because if it's the latter.. well, screw that) 08:22:42 spacebat: Semantically, every Common Lisp value is a pointer. 08:22:55 (or a reference if you prefer) 08:23:04 ok 08:23:20 oh wait, push is doing a: (setq list (cons val list)) ? 08:23:25 in that case, I see why. :) 08:23:34 spacebat: An atom in Common Lisp is defined to be any object that is not a cons cell. 08:23:54 poor choice of words 08:24:05 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:25:15 spacebat: So are you still wondering why places aren't first-class? 08:25:29 well, so it sounds like the problem is, when you make a let binding to some existing list you've made a new "reference" to the list. When you do the push you reassign your temporary variable (target-list) to point to a cons of your new element and the tail being the other list 08:25:30 right? 08:25:39 hefner: the former I think, I know that you can't pass places to functions, you have to use macros to operate on the symbols that refer to those places 08:25:50 jbjohns: sounds right 08:26:00 that being the case, could a macro-symbol do the trick? 08:26:14 jbjohns: depends on what trick you want it to do. 08:26:14 yes jbjohns, hefner suggested using an array or hash, which is good 08:26:28 ah I've not learned macro symbols yet 08:26:36 spacebat: you sound very confused, but I'm having trouble decoding precisely how. you should read some real common lisp code. 08:26:37 temporarily set the symbol "target-list" to expand to whicever list name he wants 08:27:09 and it will do that at run time? 08:27:14 yea 08:27:16 er 08:27:26 hrm, maybe not. 08:27:29 hehe 08:27:47 yes I've lots more real code to read 08:27:48 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-78-34-96-231.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:28:10 basically he wants (at least this is how I parse it): (1) do some calculation to determine which list should be worked with (2) push a value onto the selected list 08:28:31 the simplest way is to do what (I think) hefner said and just use a hash of lists 08:28:44 spacebat: I now of only C and C++ that have first-class places such as pointers to variables and to fields of a structure. I would be interested in knowing the syntax in Perl, Python, and Ruby to do that. 08:29:10 but if you couldn't do that for some reason, what else could you do? I'm thinking symbol-let or macro symbol but not sure how that plays with runtime vs compile time 08:29:11 right. if they're so similar that you're operating on them with mostly the same code, why are they stored in disparate places? 08:29:33 (and if there's a good reason, just write a cond or case and be done with it :) 08:29:57 jbjohns: Typically you would return a new list (with something new as the first element) and have your caller use the return value. 08:30:01 well the problem with case/cond is that the code is all exactly the same. Only the list name would be different 08:30:14 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 08:30:21 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:30:25 jbjohns: right. and if you put yourself in that situation, it's your own fault. which is why I said not to do it, unless you had a good reason to. 08:30:27 that's a good point. This problem is coming from the fact of doing mutation. If you go more functional it's no problem 08:30:35 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 08:30:47 it would be things like this have have this thread alive in my mind: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.sources.code/17 08:32:06 spacebat: I am still interested in how to do that in (say) Python. I know a bit of Python, but I don't know how to pass (say) the third element of a list as a place to a function, and have that function modify that element. 08:32:42 beach: it's easier to do in Python, Perl, Ruby, etc. because they don't have cons lists 08:32:58 they can act like it but they really have arrays 08:32:58 jbjohns: ? 08:33:20 yeah, that's the source of the whole confusion. 08:33:22 like in Perl you would make some arrays: @a, @b, @c 08:33:40 then you have some function that chooses one: @target = choose(); 08:33:44 wait, that wouldn't work actually 08:33:46 ! 08:33:50 jbjohns: Er, spacebat was "surprised" that Lisp doesn't have first-class places and hinted that Perl, Python and Ruby all do, so I would just like to see how it is done. 08:33:53 you would have to use references 08:34:11 beach: you're right then, those languages don't have first class places 08:34:14 Ok, after writing it out, I'm not sure what he's talking about 08:34:27 i'm guessing you'd pass list[2] as a parameter in python 08:34:33 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 08:34:41 -!- chuckler [n=fa@117.192.139.228] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:34:49 in perl if you did: @target = choose-list(); push('a', @target); the original wouldn't be modified 08:34:49 guaqua: that's not quite the same thing. You an do that in Common Lisp as well. 08:35:11 it would work in python though 08:35:27 would it? that's awful. 08:35:51 it wouldn't 08:35:58 listA = [] listB = [] listC = [] list_target = choose_list() list_target.push('a') 08:35:59 pass by value there 08:36:09 no, it's all references in python 08:36:20 oh, to pick a list 08:36:23 list_target == listA if chose_list returned listA 08:36:24 sorry, missed that part 08:36:37 they're literally pointers to an array 08:37:10 in CL both variables are pointers to the same list, but the problem is what push expands to: (setq list (cons element list)) 08:37:27 funny how this never actually comes up when I'm writing CL. 08:37:31 I guess the relation between the two notions, pick-a-list and first-class-place is, I'd like to have a variable that refers to another variable... like an alias for it 08:37:50 I bump the alias and the other variable is updated 08:37:53 that would be like it doing: list_target = list_target[:] list_target.push('a') in pyhton 08:38:33 yes hefner, that's why I was thinking I don't know the lisp tao 08:38:40 well, that's not exactly the same thing, but python doesn't have cons lists so you can't do it at all without making them 08:38:44 Krystof [n=csr21@host86-146-135-91.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:39:32 making an alias? Can you do that with a 0 element array? 08:39:52 but that's still not going to work I think 08:39:53 in perl: @a=(1,2); $ref=\@a; $ref->[0]++; print "@a"; => 2 2 08:40:15 but do you see what you're doing there? You're taking a pointer like in C doing a &array 08:40:36 yes... and as beach mentioned pointers are first class places 08:40:55 but even in that case, it isn't the same thing. Perl has an *array* 08:41:10 doing push @array is modifying that array 08:42:10 in lisp it never does. Push creates a new list that consists of the old as the tail and the new element as the head and assigns this to the variable 08:43:33 a lisp list is like this in perl: @cons = (undef, undef); 08:43:51 yes, so if I have (setq t '(1 2)) and then, at runtime I want y to be an alias for t, I'm stuck (unless I use eval) 08:44:39 but one doesn't use eval in polite code, so I must rethink the approach and use an array or hash of lists 08:44:58 using eval does not work in any useful sense. 08:45:05 but I wonder why the symbol table machinery can't be used for it 08:45:11 (list 1 2 3) -> (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil))) == [1, [2, [3]]] 08:45:36 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-63-41.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:45:41 the left side of the == is lisp, the right side is the perl equivalent 08:46:00 so if you want to push something on, like an 'a', you end up with: 08:46:08 If I designed a lisp, I think I'd remove eval (and hide it under a big scary name) 08:46:14 ['a', [1, [2, [3]]]] 08:46:22 it seems to rot people's brains. 08:46:30 does that help you see the problem? 08:46:51 hefner: implementation-wise you'd need to work quite a bit to get around it 08:47:00 if you don't just compile everything 08:47:26 if you had a ref in perl, $a that pointed to: [1, [2, [3]]] 08:47:27 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:47:36 minion, can you spare some ammo? 08:47:36 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 08:47:42 fair enough. 08:48:01 that's your listA in lisp. Now your call your choose function that returns $a and assign it to $target_list 08:48:25 I know how lisp lists work 08:48:34 they both point to the same place but when you do a lisp push: $target_list = ['a', $target_list] 08:48:41 $a doesn't point to the same thing anymore 08:48:52 er, it points to the exact same thing it did 08:48:57 but your code didn't touch it 08:49:21 (defvar *t* '(1 2)) (defvar *y* '*t*) (eval `(push 0 ,*y*)) *t* = 08:49:25 => (0 1 2) 08:49:35 my god. 08:49:46 Is this a bad dream? (: 08:49:51 probably schme 08:50:06 maybe I should go back to bed.. or read the scrollback. 08:50:08 -!- Gertm [n=Gertm@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit ["C-x C-c"] 08:50:35 so, eval in that case let me treat *y* as an alias for *t* 08:50:47 Is it worth it? 08:50:49 I know its bad form, and I know the workaround 08:50:58 hmm, why are you comparing lisp lists with perl/pythons arrays ? 08:51:04 Gertm [n=gertm@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 08:51:17 you can do (push 0 (symbol-value (if (zerop (random 2)) '*x* '*y*)), as I implied earlier 08:51:27 milanj: Spacebat wants to do something he thinks he can do in Perl/Python. But the reason it works in those languages is because it isn't the same structure 08:51:37 mogunus [n=marco@wsip-70-184-14-138.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:49 but I wonder if there isn't a nice way for one symbol to be an alias for another symbol 08:52:06 spacebat: there *is*. You're not listening 08:52:08 -!- Gertm [n=gertm@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:52:37 thanks hefner that looks like it 08:52:46 if Perl/Python had the same structure as what lisp has and push worked the same you would get exactly the same results in those languages and there would be no non-eval way to make it work. Full stop 08:53:11 jbjohns: sorry that's not what I didn't get 08:53:18 spacebat: maybe, but now you need to learn how variable scope works in lisp, and the limitations of eval with respect to that 08:53:40 I know how python/perl arrays differ from lisp lists 08:53:45 How do I get the current frame manager for my CLIM app, outside of a define-application-frame? I need to dynamically add listbox widgets to one of my sheets. 08:53:47 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-6-39.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 08:53:58 eval operates in the null lexical environment 08:54:01 if you know these things why are you expecting lisp to do something these other languages don't? 08:54:06 clim with-look-and-feel-realization 08:54:06 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/29-2.html#_1590 08:54:21 jbjohns: I was asking about places 08:54:27 hmm, that's half of it 08:54:33 Gertm [n=gertm@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 08:54:38 Lisp has places but that has nothing to do with what's going on here 08:54:55 jbjohns: but arrays will act as he wants 08:54:58 first class places are not a feature of lisp, and I thought that they would allow the use of symbol aliases 08:55:23 if you said: (let ((target-list (choose-list))) (setf (car target-list) 7)) it will change it in both lists 08:55:41 mogunus: (frame-manager *application-frame*) 08:55:51 I mean, not both lists, it's the same list with two references to it 08:55:57 mogunus: Examples/method-browser.lisp does a lot of dynamic gadget creation. 08:55:59 he can (let ((array (choose-array))) (vector-push-extecd ... 08:56:05 hefner: thanks very much. just figuring out CLIM... I like it :-) 08:56:15 true. hefner's solution of using symbol-value works as well 08:56:31 change your "choose-list" function to return the symbol of the list instead of the list itself 08:56:44 no, don't. baby jesus will cry. 08:56:48 and change your push calls to be: (push element (symbol-value target-list)) 08:56:56 its not lispy though 08:57:09 getting in this situation at all isn't lispy 08:57:25 you can't have a lispy solution to an unlispy problem. 08:57:32 iterating through a list, building up other lists isn't lispy? 08:57:46 (okay, you probably can) 08:58:37 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@host86-146-135-91.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:58:38 I have no idea what you're doing sufficient to know how I'd write it. 08:58:40 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 08:58:41 spacebat: you mean iterating through one list and building up other lists that live outside of your function, right? 08:58:57 no they're in the same function 08:59:41 hello 08:59:41 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-143-82.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 08:59:44 I'm stepping through a lambda list, and if I see :var, then the next element goes into the var list 08:59:59 if I see :func, the next element goes into the func list 09:00:22 but the next element is allowed to be a list, in which case it is appended instead of consed 09:01:44 I'd LOOP it. ;) 09:01:55 yea, I was thinking that as well 09:02:00 loop gets around the symbol problem right? 09:02:34 spacebat: are you sure you are stepping through a lambda list, or is it just the value of the &rest parameter? 09:03:52 well, I want both &key and &body, so rather than using &key I've used &optional symbol-list, and then I step through that 09:03:59 mogunus pasted "confusion: press not undefined?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80703 09:04:24 spacebat: So you are stepping through the value of the symbol-list parameter. 09:04:29 yes 09:04:36 spacebat: Then that is probably not a lambda list. 09:04:47 definitions again 09:04:52 spacebat: You need to be much more careful with your teminology. 09:04:56 its not quite, no 09:05:00 when I try to run my application frame, it claims that my toy callback function is undefined. I got this code from the clim primer, so I don't see why it doesn't work. 09:05:24 but :var x :func blah is an example 09:05:24 mogunus: Paste it? 09:05:45 http://paste.lisp.org/display/80703 09:06:07 spacebat: A lamda list is what you type to describe the parameters to a function, a macro, or a method. 09:06:14 ah 09:06:17 :) 09:06:35 well, I seem to have come away with some answers 09:06:56 *tic* feels some inspiration heading this way. 09:07:00 sorry to have dropped my messed up notions in the channel! 09:07:32 elias` [n=me@resnet-pat-254.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:07:43 everyone can't know everything 09:08:05 everyone has to learn. I consider myself very much a lisp newbie, but I have experience in a wide variety of languages 09:08:41 mogunus: are you sure you really defined press? I don't think there's anything spooky going on here. Does #'press find it? :) 09:08:52 this just makes me believe i shouldn't program today. any suggestions on what code to read? some specific library, perhaps? 09:08:54 mogunus: The press function looks suspect. Are you sure you defined it? 09:10:37 guaqua: What is your level of Common Lisp knowledge? 09:10:39 beach: fairly sure? it is from here http://kantz.com/jason/clim-primer/panes.htm, I'm just compiling with c-c c-k in slime and then trying the run-frame-top-level call I have in the paste. 09:10:43 mogunus: also, use make-pane, not make-instance 09:11:22 beach: quite a beginner i am, i've gone through practical common lisp and come up with a few libraries of my own, mainly trivial ones. 09:11:36 don't trust slime to actually compile everything you paste into it, either 09:11:39 beach: oh, arg is totally undefined... sorry, my stupid mistake. 09:13:18 hefner: slime-compile-and-load-file is untrustworthy? ugh. I should read the code I guess. 09:13:49 mogunus: If I replace make-instance by make-pane, and arg by button this example works. 09:13:51 no, that certainly should be reliable. 09:14:00 for some value of "work". 09:14:01 -!- Gertm [n=gertm@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:14:35 guaqua: I suggest you read some code from PAIP then. 09:15:01 *hefner* has the odd impression that in some environment, at some point, pasting multiple definitions caused only some of them to be evaluated, but can no longer recall specifically 09:15:48 beach: that i'll do. got it from mail just last week. :) 09:16:25 quaqua: Read the http server 09:16:28 Gertm [n=gertm@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 09:16:31 forgot the name, sec 09:16:38 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:16:56 hunchentoot 09:17:34 -!- Gertm [n=gertm@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:17:36 if you make an array with: (make-array 0) how do you set it? Or is that readonly? 09:17:48 Gertm [n=gertm@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 09:18:40 -!- Gertm [n=gertm@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:18:53 Gertm [n=gertm@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 09:19:13 Is there anything to set in it? 09:19:39 -!- Gertm [n=gertm@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:20:43 well, I was going to try an experiment with it, but (setf (aref my-array 0) value) didn't work so I don't know how to read or set the value 09:21:45 jbjohns: er, it's a one-dimensional array with zero elements in it. 09:22:12 but I heard that this can be very useful for.... something. I forgot the last (important) part. :) 09:22:37 jbjohns: Only index values from 0 to N-1 are allowed for vectors of length N. 09:22:55 In this case, N is 0, so there are not valid index values in the range from 0 to -1. 09:23:09 s/not/no/ 09:23:28 so what is it used for? To give a nil with a type or something? 09:24:07 Gertm [n=Gertm@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 09:24:10 jbjohns: I don't know what it might be useful for. If you make it adjustable, then I guess it would be. 09:24:31 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@82.Red-79-150-113.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:25:34 googling for "(make-array 0" returns a lot of answers. None seem to be adjustable. Here is one example: http://tuxee.net/um.lisp 09:25:48 but in this case he seems to just use it as a default value that he later drops 09:26:30 aha, it doesn't get tossed 09:29:28 I tend to create adjustable arrays that way (with length 0 initially) 09:29:43 (not that I use them very often..) 09:37:07 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp123.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 09:37:25 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp123.studby.uio.no] has quit [Client Quit] 09:37:44 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:41:46 -!- ubunoob33 [n=ubuntu@89-180-167-254.net.novis.pt] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:44:11 jobf [n=jbf@c80-216-238-151.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:45:27 c|mell [n=cmell@p15160-ipngn601marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:47:07 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 09:58:40 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:59:14 -!- Tordek__ [n=tordek@host29.190-138-170.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:03:13 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:03:21 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:03:29 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 10:05:11 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.148.222] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:05:54 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087CD21.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:48 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:08:51 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:11:57 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 10:12:29 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6BC8A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:33 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.14.68] has joined #lisp 10:19:10 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-63-41.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:19:28 mogunus pasted "stuck on dynamically adding gadgets" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80704 10:20:22 can someone take a look at that? I keep getting a SHEET-ALREADY-HAS-PARENT error 10:21:08 why are you making a new listbox pane? 10:21:15 on adding an item, I mean 10:21:44 actually, what? I have no idea what add-list is supposed to do (: 10:22:22 I'm trying to dynamically add listbox gadgets 10:22:27 hm. 10:22:28 ok 10:22:32 that makes more sense 10:22:49 have you tried just sheet-adopt-child'ing the list pane to the hbox-pane? 10:23:12 to the existing one 10:23:42 I think that also gives me a sheet-already-has-parent error, but I will check and make sure 10:24:01 if you get that error, be sure to check which sheet has the parent, and what the parent is 10:24:06 oh woah it doesn't 10:24:09 thanks so much 10:24:13 cool (: 10:24:18 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-ede270d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["bbl"] 10:24:23 yay! 10:28:05 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-12-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:28:24 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-12-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:16 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 10:35:40 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:36:07 chris2 [n=chris@p5B1680D7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:37:24 Does anyone know of the name of the debian package that contains the DTD files for XHTML? 10:38:03 "apt-file search *.dtd | grep xhtml" might be helpful. 10:38:04 Why does sbcl whine about redefining a constant each time I recompile a file.. It is seriously annoying. 10:39:00 jthing: What's the assigned value of the constant? 10:39:07 Maby I should thunk the *debug-handler* and set the restart-case to continue. 10:39:27 vy: a list of month abbreviations 10:40:00 jthing: A list doesn't EQL to a list. So there is nothing wrong with that. 10:40:10 jbjohns: I've used make-array 0 because I wanted the `program' variable to be of the declared type (from what I remember.) Don't take um.lisp as an example of how to write lisp code. 10:40:39 that was just the first place I saw with some meat to it that used that construct 10:41:08 is there a way to use a list-pane to keep track of two "selections": one of which is the actual selection, and one of which is just a place marker for "where you are in the list with your keyboard?" (say using the up/down arrows to scroll) 10:41:31 tcr: I think it's w3c-dtd-xhtml 10:42:00 fe[nl]ix: Hope so, found it. thanks 10:42:16 vy: so quote instead of list shoud work? 10:43:22 tcr: /usr/share/xml/xhtml/schema/dtd/1.1/xhtml11.dtd should be what you're looking for 10:45:26 vy: ok, thanks fount it 10:47:43 delqna [n=delqna@p54A3667C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:57 mogunus: what graphical toolkit does your pasted code relate to? (out of curiosity) 10:49:19 mogunus: nvm, didn't notice the bottom messages which say it's clim 10:49:58 mogunus: there's no built in way to do that. you could subclass the generic list pane and implement it yourself, of course, although the implementation of that gadget is a little hairy 10:51:25 I don't think there's any keyboard control at all in the existing gadget, so there's room for improvement there 10:51:59 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:52:36 antoni [n=user@19.pool85-53-26.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 10:54:25 *hefner* wishes the pathname completion in the slime repl didn't break when the pathname has a space in it 10:56:51 hefner: hmm. okay. is it easy to arbitrarily draw a border or something around an item? (looking at list-pane implementation now) 10:56:57 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-143-82.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:56:58 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-6-39.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 10:57:11 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-64-40.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:00:41 heh, I that repaint method could be factored more cleanly 11:00:47 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.14.68] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:01:15 minion: memo for lichtblau: That the :DTD keyword for CXML:PARSE does not in fact expect a DTD object is a bit counter intuitive. Also in the error reporting missing dtd files, you could perhaps mention the w3c-dtd-xhtml debian package, and also CXML:MAKE-CATALOG. 11:01:15 Remembered. I'll tell lichtblau when he/she/it next speaks. 11:01:27 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.12.187] has joined #lisp 11:04:20 The-Kenn1 [n=moritz@p5087CD21.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:24 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-64-40.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 11:05:12 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 11:06:07 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 11:07:04 ah, this sucks. I had some old file searching hack that customized the list pane to make the items three lines high and show various id3 tags, and I must've broken that repaint method up into a couple pieces so I didn't have to duplicate code, but I never committed that version 11:07:07 question for all your experienced lisp users: is clim a good standard for GUI interfaces? Is it the best you could imagine lisp having? 11:08:35 *schme* gets popcorn for this one. 11:08:53 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-30-100.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:09:38 *p_l* curses his lack of good snacks to watch this discussion 11:09:53 I'm just curious. I don't know much about clim, but I do know that in Squeak smalltalk they use a graphic library called Morphic which is not a good fit at all. Morphic was made for Self, a prototyped based OO language and bolted onto Squeak when Self (more or less) went away 11:10:05 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 11:10:44 jbjohns: I like CLIM. It also seems to work nice with the CLOS model, so no problem there. But I'm sure one can imagine up something nicer :) 11:10:50 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-30-100.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:11:08 one can, and mcclim needs more user-developers 11:11:17 (or more developer-users) 11:11:25 milan [n=milan@79.101.196.11] has joined #lisp 11:11:39 a lot of the people in the Squeak community seem to be hung up on keeping Morphic for some reason, despite it's poor fit. I guess because of the history of it and not wanting to lose something from self. About CLIM, I don't know much. The interface was made by a comity, is that right? 11:12:08 I even seem to remember someone (beach, me thinks) working on clim v3 specs. 11:12:29 hefner: do you mean more clients of the mcclim library, or more devs to make mcclim? 11:12:39 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 11:12:49 jbjohns: McCLIM is "made by the community". 11:12:51 hm. I installed mcclim from clbuild, how do I try the gtk backend? 11:12:58 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:13:02 more developers. any semi-serious mcclim user is necessarily sucked into its development. 11:13:05 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has left #lisp 11:13:14 milanj [n=milan@79.101.230.73] has joined #lisp 11:13:52 hefner: On what account does that happen? 11:14:38 to make it do what you want. 11:15:03 anyway, these sorts of discussions are not a good idea. 11:15:53 in a more active channel, or if anyone felt really strongly, you'd just bring out two sides that would start screaming at each other 11:16:18 'tis good we're not in that sort of channel, then? 11:16:37 Odin-: depends on the time and day of the week. 11:16:41 I tried pushing :gtkcairo onto *features*, and using (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :clim-gtkairo). neither works. 11:16:47 if you want someone to tell you what to use, I'll recommend you buy a mac and learn Objective C. 11:16:55 pkhuong: Goody. 11:17:20 schme: I know McCLIM is made by the community, but I'm talking about the spec 11:17:28 -!- antoni [n=user@19.pool85-53-26.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 11:17:37 McCLIM is based on some version of the clim standard I would imagine 11:17:43 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p15160-ipngn601marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:17:43 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-63-41.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:17:54 -!- milan [n=milan@79.101.196.11] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:18:00 irrelevant trivia 11:18:05 chuckler [n=fa@117.192.129.193] has joined #lisp 11:18:13 anyone using stumpwm here? 11:18:22 well... except that I can't know how to actually use it unless I know what it is 11:18:26 I use stump. 11:18:34 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087CD21.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:18:36 i a**identally redefined my "see" key. now i **annot type "see" :) 11:18:37 jbjohns: Oh ok. That's a good one. who makes the specs. I don't know :) 11:18:41 c|mell [n=cmell@p31208-ipngn501marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:18:43 *schme* useD stump 11:18:45 define-key *root-map* (kbd "c") "aterm")' 11:18:49 I mean, it can be a collection of classes/methods/functions of it's creation, but then why call it "CLIM"? 11:19:01 chuckler: I am 11:19:03 the ommand does not work neither does the "see" as in *hi*ken 11:19:15 r1nu- [n=r1nu-@ppp-94-68-54-180.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:19:19 morning 11:19:22 chuckler: I'd suggest #stumpwm 11:19:29 an anyone tell me how i *an get "see" to fun*tion as normal 11:19:31 jbjohns: it is a collection of functions... but it's a tiling window manager too 11:19:37 ah nobody seems to be abswering there 11:19:50 chuckler: kill X, edit config, start X 11:20:16 madnificent: right, but CLIM is a standard. If someone names a library xCLIMy then I would expect it to have something to do with CLIM 11:20:19 ah i *annot kill x in a webex meeting 11:20:31 not possible to redefine? 11:20:53 ok, don't kill X. switch wm ;) 11:21:01 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-63-41.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:21:13 -!- r1nu- [n=r1nu-@ppp-94-68-54-180.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 11:21:14 jbjohns: I was talking about stumpwm, my bad 11:21:16 -!- jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has left #lisp 11:21:18 chuckler: I am guessing somewhere is a list or some such of all those keybindings. Just rip it out of there :) 11:21:24 oh sorry 11:21:33 yeah it is there somewher.. no idea where.. 11:21:55 ah i know this is the wrong plae to ask stump questions..but well i did not know waht else to do. 11:22:05 chuckler: Maybe look up where DEFINE-KEY puts it? 11:22:06 jbjohns: normally I'd be suggesting you drown yourself right about now, but to your credit, the mcclim page doesn't actually say anywhere in 24-point bold blinking text that McCLIM is an implementation of the CLIM 2.0 Specification. 11:22:28 hefner: My intention is not to start some kind of religious/flame war. I just wanted to get a feel for how well CLIM works within Lisp. For example, Dolphin Smalltalk has their own graphic library based on MVC, and after using that I was blown away. It fits perfectly for their environment 11:22:55 how do i tell lips to interpret the ommand c as the character c 11:22:59 jbjohns: It works well for me, and seems to fit right in there. 11:23:10 chuckler: edit your config file to remove that binding and then execute the command "loadrc" 11:23:17 jbjohns: In that case, CLIM is an excellent example of "modern" CL design 11:23:33 ok, that's the kind of feedback I was looking for 11:23:51 (where modern probably means conservative) 11:24:06 jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has joined #lisp 11:24:13 Corun [n=Corun@82.132.136.222] has joined #lisp 11:24:16 it is, at least, an example of how to correctly apply CLOS. 11:24:23 I'm just trying to figure out whether CLIM fits in the Morphic+Squeak category or the Dolphin+MVP catagory 11:24:31 or somewhere in between 11:25:04 I was not aware there were problems with Morphic, but I don't really follow Squeak 11:25:04 mogunus: it's not in my onfig 11:25:09 only in this instane 11:25:11 The guys in the squeak community will vigorously defend Morphic and claim it needs to stay, but no one would say it's an excellent example of modern smalltalk 11:25:20 hefner: do you know somewhat much about clos? 11:25:28 io'm running a slime wiht stumpwm loaded 11:25:33 and that's where i did this 11:25:33 as a mop, that is 11:25:47 I mean, I'd expect there to be problems just because Smalltalk's whole object model looks completely goofy to me, but then I also don't know enough about Smalltalk to hold to that as anymore than a vague impression from a distance. 11:25:49 chuckler: look what DEFINE-KEY does, and you should be able to follow to where keybindings are stored. and just rip it out. 11:26:00 -!- The-Kenn1 [n=moritz@p5087CD21.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:26:42 -!- milanj- [n=milan@93.86.57.65] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:26:49 hefner: Just for your own trivia; the problem with Morphic is it was designed for a language that doesn't have classes, and is bolted onto a language that does. So if you do anything in Morphic you start seeing classes like "WidgetPlayer1","WidgetPlayer2" show up in your class browser as the system tries to generate them on the fly 11:27:19 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.12.187] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:27:22 madnificent: I don't know, I use a certain subset of it comfortably and in a particular way, and there are definitely people here with two orders of magnitude more depth of knowledge in it 11:28:06 jophish [n=jophish@80-47-236-51.lond-th.dynamic.dial.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 11:28:09 schme: i got a reply in #stumpwm thanks anyway guys 11:28:29 it has to generate classes because in a pure class based OO language (like smalltalk) there is no other way to add behaviors to new objects like a proto language can 11:28:34 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.1.75] has joined #lisp 11:29:13 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-30-100.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:29:22 jbjohns: interesting. thanks. 11:29:28 np. :) 11:29:40 hefner: do you have any idea how I could dynamically add slots/accessors to a class when it is defined? I have built a new metaclass, but can't see how I can extend it. I assumed I could overwrite ensure-class-using-class, but apparantly that doesn't work (I can't specify an around method on it for some reason and it isn't called the first time (which is correct, but still). Any ideas on how to add them? 11:29:45 and thank you for the info about mcClim. I'll look into it 11:31:57 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D157.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:30 buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-30-100.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:32:33 CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.101.127] has joined #lisp 11:32:35 madnificent: sorry, no. my inner luddite has so far succeeded in steering me far away from any such use of CLOS. 11:33:24 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:33:25 hefner: the classes being defined elsewhere (in the database), it feels correct to me... but there are nays to it in any such useage 11:37:45 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p31208-ipngn501marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:37:47 I still can't figure out how to get the gtk backend from sbcl/slime, but it works fine with the demos using ./clbuild run. 11:37:49 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-30-100.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 11:38:32 I thought all you had to do was load the gtkairo system, although if you've loaded clx also, I don't know which is chosen by default 11:39:07 clim *default-server-path* 11:39:07 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/9-2.html#_457 11:39:10 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 11:40:05 -!- Corun [n=Corun@82.132.136.222] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:40:14 so did I. this: (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :clim-gtkairo) doesn't work, and I can't find the .asd for it anywhere. 11:41:05 c|mell [n=cmell@p3026-ipngn401marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:41:34 it's in mcclim.asd. if you tried to load that from scratch, asdf wouldn't have found it. 11:42:12 (the standard asdf setup kinda sucks for software that describes more than one system) 11:42:36 Zenton`` [n=user@80.29.227.66] has joined #lisp 11:42:39 Corun [n=Corun@82.132.136.210] has joined #lisp 11:42:44 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 11:43:07 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-124-83.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:20 ah, there we go. thanks 11:43:31 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has left #lisp 11:46:59 madnificent: sorry, I don't have any useful suggestions except perhaps to define the classes using ensure-class instead of trying to inject the extra information 11:47:20 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 11:47:31 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has left #lisp 11:47:47 huh. the gtk backend seems to really dislike my application. 11:47:56 "application" 11:48:41 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.1.75] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:49:28 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:49:41 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 11:52:48 oh, it doesn't like me to specify an initial height and width 11:52:56 now it looks quite nice. 11:53:53 layout is one of the really frustrating things in mcclim, which the gtkairo backend might even do a better job of 11:54:31 every clim app seems to involve some random twiddling of width/height and min-width/min-height parameters 11:55:53 Yuuhi [i=benni@84.131.173.214] has joined #lisp 11:56:00 dumb question: when I subclass list-pane, do I need to tie it to a specific backend? 11:56:25 -!- Corun [n=Corun@82.132.136.210] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:56:53 ..it's kind of a tarpit in the sense that the layout panes will piss me off, and rather than fix them, I'll realize I could write simpler custom ten layout panes in the time it would take me to understand the existing implementation, and then I go back to twiddling keywords 11:57:23 -!- |stern| is now known as seelenquell 11:57:35 (that logic applies to a lot of things I put up with and don't fix in mcclim, although my work estimates are highly suspect) 11:57:50 mogunus: actually, that's a good question. 11:59:41 hefner: would it be a design choice, or are there hard constraints on that? 12:00:15 the short answer is that you should subclass generic-list-pane if you want to extend the existing implementation 12:00:22 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-180-17-203.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:00:45 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 12:01:40 the slightly longer answer is that when you say list-pane, make-pane asks the frame-manager and whoever else to translate it to something concrete it can instantiate according to the current backend, likely generic-list-pane (which is backend-agnostic) 12:01:53 (for gtkairo, it will map to some other class) 12:03:28 hmm. okay. I'll just need to figure out the clim drawing functions, then. 12:05:00 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:05:03 I need to provide a visual cue for "if you press the space bar right now, this item will be added to your nonexclusive selection" 12:05:33 sohum [n=sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has joined #lisp 12:05:57 maybe the easiest way would be to add a custom presentation for that item? with a stippled border or something? I don't know how bad of an idea that is. 12:06:28 also, I'd suggest hacking it right into the existing code, instead of subclassing, if it at all makes sense for this to be rolled into the standard behavior of the object 12:06:37 so I'm trying to use cl-id3 with a moderately sized dataset (5000 values) and I get multiple memory corruption errors and the control stack guard gets disabled 12:07:25 it may. I just want nice keyboard controls, and the addition of the cue. 12:07:37 I'd be willing to try and hack that into the code 12:08:16 mogunus: that gadget is implemented using event handlers and simple drawing without output recording, so no presentations. (there's some bizarre notion of a presentation hacked into those gadgets, but it doesn't affect the appearance). 12:08:44 ah. oh, well. 12:09:07 -!- jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has left #lisp 12:10:00 one way or another I'll get that behavior. 12:10:39 but now, sleep. 12:10:44 hefner: thanks for all the help 12:11:12 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:11:18 -!- mogunus [n=marco@wsip-70-184-14-138.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:11:46 no problem. good to apply my accumulated mcclim trivia. 12:12:05 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Client Quit] 12:12:59 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p3026-ipngn401marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:15:45 oh, he left. here I was about to keep talking, too. 12:16:35 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-102-226.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:16:48 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-126-254.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:16:51 -!- beach` is now known as beach 12:16:51 pekka_ [n=patric@90-230-89-60-no148.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:17:17 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 12:17:49 -!- semyon421 [n=semyon@217.67.122.44] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:19:24 jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has joined #lisp 12:21:25 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-140-111.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:21:38 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-140-111.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 12:21:46 hefner: You can keep talking. 12:23:16 beach: hi. you got my email? 12:23:44 delqna: Recently? Hold on... 12:24:51 beach: it's from an xmail account, cause our university webmail doesn't work since they announced they're goint to migrate to ms exchange 12:24:54 bew [n=chatzill@94-170-121-117.cable.ubr16.dals.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:29:21 -!- jobf [n=jbf@c80-216-238-151.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:29:52 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-89-251.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:30:11 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-102-226.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:30:14 -!- beach` is now known as beach 12:32:19 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9849.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 12:36:05 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:41 Zenton``` [n=user@77.210.190.191] has joined #lisp 12:38:44 -!- Zenton`` [n=user@80.29.227.66] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:40:28 -!- buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-30-100.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:41:58 buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-30-100.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:44:41 delqna: let me guess, Live@Edu? 12:44:58 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 12:47:47 -!- buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-30-100.netcologne.de] has quit ["none"] 12:49:40 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-30-100.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:50:09 nh_ [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 12:51:30 prip_ [n=_prip@host13-135-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:51:33 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:51:36 -!- prip [n=_prip@host13-135-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:51:40 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:05:41 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.101.127] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:05:49 klausi [n=klausi@port-92-193-69-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:07:46 frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:08:15 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:08:43 -!- frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:09:02 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:09:19 -!- bew [n=chatzill@94-170-121-117.cable.ubr16.dals.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 13:09:52 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:10:25 p_l: you mean if i'm a student? 13:11:04 -!- pekka_ [n=patric@90-230-89-60-no148.tbcn.telia.com] has quit ["leaving"] 13:11:15 yeah 13:11:25 I have seen many places moving to that 13:11:30 p_l: well, i'm trying ;-) 13:12:23 on our uni I think we've got internal Exchange server for staff and external Exchange server in Exchangelabs through that Live@Edu 13:12:23 p_l: well, they announced to do it 30.5/1.6, but since the announcement the webmail interface isn't working anymore 13:12:42 btw, interesting nick :) 13:13:04 p_l: it's just my first name ;-) 13:13:19 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:13:24 delqna: I first noticed similarity to DEQNA :) 13:14:26 which, to make it funnier, was replaced afaik by DELQA :) 13:16:01 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-113-11.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:16:06 p_l: i wasn't aware of that until now as i just googled for deqna and delqa ;-) 13:16:10 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-89-251.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:16:13 -!- beach` is now known as beach 13:17:23 p_l: so in my version, 'q' stands for 'ya' in the cyrillic alphabet 13:20:56 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2D39A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:42 jmbr [n=jmbr@78.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:33:44 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 13:33:50 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-251.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 13:37:55 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:38:43 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D157.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 13:38:53 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Client Quit] 13:39:13 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 13:40:02 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 13:40:51 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:46:14 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-63-0-19.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:57:08 -!- jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has left #lisp 14:00:18 -!- sohum [n=sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has left #lisp 14:01:25 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.201.248] has joined #lisp 14:02:57 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.133.213] has joined #lisp 14:03:00 ericklc [n=ikki@189.228.133.213] has joined #lisp 14:03:13 -!- ericklc [n=ikki@189.228.133.213] has quit [Client Quit] 14:03:19 jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has joined #lisp 14:03:32 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 14:03:56 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:07 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:04:24 wg1024 [n=wg1024@ip-80-226-17-17.vodafone-net.de] has joined #lisp 14:05:30 -!- cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit ["upgrade"] 14:05:52 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:07:50 -!- wg1024 [n=wg1024@ip-80-226-17-17.vodafone-net.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:08:19 demmeln [n=demmeln@atradig121.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:09:39 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-100-30.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:11:16 has any here done (or know of) work with pdf's in lisp? I want to (1) be able to display (without much extras) a pdf and (2) extract the text from a pdf... probably in combination with a gui made with commonqt (qt4)... 14:11:32 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:11:45 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 14:12:09 I've been looking into poppler, but that seems more involved than I thought (somehow I thought that this was already available through smoke and through that through commonqt, but alas) 14:12:34 I've now also found pdfedit, but there also it looks like I'm gonna have to build my own cffi bindings to it... 14:13:00 so I'm kinda rethinking, and hoping maybe someone else has already done this work (or thought about it..) 14:13:06 thijso: does poppler itself have C++ or C bindings? 14:13:32 uhm.. poppler itself is C++ 14:13:53 I tried swig, but I'm not yet fully grasping that it seems 14:14:15 _sohail_ [n=Sohail@d207-81-121-15.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:42 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-124-83.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["leaving"] 14:14:43 no extern "C" bindings? 14:15:18 hmm.. not sure... I'm seeing mailing list posts about ruby and python bindings to poppler... 14:17:01 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087CD21.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:39 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:20:13 and no extern "C" bindings, no... 14:21:55 Python and Ruby have it easier due to not having FFI... 14:24:52 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-30-100.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:25:28 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.169.246] has joined #lisp 14:26:03 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:26:54 Signal 13 masked, fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 30885(tid 140419141302608):, some blockable signals blocked, some unblocked. Whats up ? 14:28:24 cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 14:30:40 lhz: read the bit in BUGS about debugging signal-related errors 14:30:42 konr [n=konrad@c953c6dd.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 14:33:12 -!- ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:33:45 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.230.73] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:45 -!- derekv [n=derekv@76.112.240.178] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:35:35 -!- konr [n=konrad@c953c6dd.virtua.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:35:52 konr [n=konrad@c953c6dd.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 14:37:48 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9849.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:38:37 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:41:20 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:44:03 derekv [n=derekv@c-76-112-240-178.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:38 Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:57:04 hello 14:57:30 anybody ever use swank-daemon? 14:58:23 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 14:58:50 slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-154-248.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 14:59:14 Harag: The usual protocol here is to state your problem or ask your question. You will find out whether anyone feels like answering or knows the answer. 14:59:15 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 14:59:38 how can i set a value in a _:allocation_ slot of a class? 15:00:14 slackaholic: What do you mean? 15:02:49 beach: if only I knew what the problem was...it just does not work as far as I can see ...no errors nothing...sfter /etc/init.d/swank.sh start I do a netstat -plunt and the the port I specidfied does not appear in the list 15:03:10 beach, i want to make a class with one shared slot to count the number of instances in this class 15:03:15 slackaholic: (setf (slot-value (make-instance ') ') ) 15:03:23 slackaholic: you must go thru an instance. 15:03:31 slackaholic: otherwise use a global dynamic variable. 15:04:05 i was thinking in a increment function... something like i++ 15:04:26 slackaholic: (incf (slot-value (make-instance ') ')) 15:04:39 slackaholic: that's what encapsulation is for; (defun make-foo (...) (make-instance 'foo ...)) 15:04:57 slackaholic: of course, if you already have an instance at hand, you don't need to make one. 15:05:07 i see 15:05:41 -!- birdsbite [n=user@74.196.9.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:06:17 and if i want to put this increment in my make-instance function? i just have to put (setf (slot-value (make-instance ') ') ) in it? 15:06:17 slackaholic: also, to count instances, there's no standard way to have finalizers. 15:06:54 slackaholic: usually we override the initialize-instance method, not the make-instance one. 15:07:04 In initialize-instance, we already have an instance. 15:07:21 slackaholic: You could create an :after method on initialize-instance that does the incrementation of the slot. 15:08:10 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 15:08:19 pjb`: why shouldn't you use (incf (objects (find-class 'name))), given objects being an accessor in that class 15:09:12 'morning 15:09:12 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:09:25 hello Fade 15:09:49 madnificent: try to implement OBJECTS. 15:10:04 birdsbite [n=user@74.196.9.26] has joined #lisp 15:10:58 pjb`: ? 15:11:33 madnificent: how do you imlpement OBJECTS ? 15:12:53 pjb`: just an integer... you create a metaclass that has an accessor named objects... perhaps objects-count would've been better 15:13:10 So you need a special meta-class. 15:13:23 which is not that special :) 15:13:56 Perhaps it's simplier to restrict your access to the shared counter when you are in an instance method... 15:14:46 it does have some downsides btw. It gets boring to use metaclasses when you want to combine several ones. Not because it is hard, just because you have to write it 15:15:47 -!- klausi [n=klausi@port-92-193-69-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:16:45 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:09 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:17:23 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 15:19:02 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:19:15 -!- moocow [n=new@64.151.208.1] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:20:20 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:20:40 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-140-111.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 15:20:54 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [" MS forgot to close port 80 "] 15:21:13 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:43 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:35:54 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 15:36:16 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:37:34 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:52 why is the function call-next-method undefined when trying to call it from within (defmethod ensure-class-using-class :around ((dbc db-class) name &rest args) *here*). I can specify a :before (this is going to be something really dumb, I hope) 15:39:07 let me change that, for it seems te be incorrect. I can't apply call-next-method to some variables 15:40:29 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 15:41:07 -!- nh_ [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Where satan goes, I follow. But only for the free T-shirts."] 15:44:48 madnificent: er, could you show us the actual code that fails? 15:45:39 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 15:47:58 It's *amazing* how ignorant those people from comp.lang.java.programmer are, and they seem willing to fight to preserve their ignorance too! 15:48:19 (catching up (sort of) on c.l.l) 15:48:28 beach: in what thread ? 15:49:28 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:50:11 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-149-27.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:25 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:52:52 so.. i think i've finished it... does somebody here can evaluate it? 15:52:53 http://paste.lisp.org/display/80712 15:53:20 p0a [n=user@athedsl-374673.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:53:28 Hello I was reading clhs and I'm wondering this: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Issues/iss308.html 15:53:50 should it be named Issue SETF-METHOD-VS-SETF-METHOD or SETF-METHOD-VS-SETF-EXPANSION? 15:53:56 It seems to me the latter was intented. 15:54:11 is it working like a make & increment function??? 15:54:16 madnificent pasted "unhappy ensure-class-using-class" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80713 15:54:24 kpreid: there you go :) 15:55:06 madnificent: apply 'call-next-method -- there's your problem 15:55:17 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 15:55:30 hmmm... wtf is with c.l.l? someone disabled threading? :D 15:55:32 p0a: no, read the problem description. 15:55:35 kpreid: care to elaborate? 15:55:37 notice that call-next-method is specified to be a "local function" -- "Whether or not call-next-method is fbound in the global environment is implementation-dependent" 15:55:54 So you need to take the local definition, not indirect through the symbol and get the global definition 15:56:08 pkhuong: you're right 15:56:29 kpreid: can you either tell me what the difference exactly is, or point me to some page describing it? I don't know this 15:56:48 madnificent: think about call-next-method as if DEFMETHOD expands to a FLET defining it 15:56:59 p_l: what are you talking about? c.l.l is fine 15:57:31 pkhuong, is "quant" slot working like a shared slot??? http://paste.lisp.org/display/80713 15:57:31 madnificent: there is no global definition on the symbol c-n-m. so apply 'c-n-m looks up (fdefinition 'c-n-m) and fails 15:57:46 madnificent: what you want is apply #'call-next-method 15:57:47 pkhuong: thanks 15:57:48 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-374673.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 15:57:55 kpreid: are there any other things that check the definition that way? 15:57:59 kpreid: #' is at runtime? 15:58:07 madnificent: what do you mean "that way"? 15:58:09 #' is lexical. 15:58:25 p0I guess it's Google Groups :D 15:58:49 ah, now I'm with you... I always looked at it as symbols. This is neat 15:58:55 thanks kpreid ! :D 16:00:00 fe[nl]ix: Doesn't seem to matter. I was thinking about the one about jobs that became one about macros. 16:01:03 slackaholic: The body of the defclass is not indented correctly. What editor are you using? 16:01:08 kpreid: I'm starting to wonder about the background of this. 'foo gives my the symbol FOO, #'foo gives me the function, bound to foo in the current lexical environment (correct?) 16:01:18 yes 16:01:35 beach, i'm using kate to edit it 16:01:46 slackaholic: Also, when you write a comment by itself on a line inside a top-level definition, use two semicolons. 16:02:10 and when you give a symbol to apply, it searches for the fdefinition of that symbol (I assume funcall does the same thing?) 16:02:13 slackaholic: That seems to be a bad idea, because now you require all of the people reading your code to count parentheses. 16:02:41 slackaholic: The body of your defun is also badly indented. 16:03:00 madnificent: yes, look up the concept 'function designator' 16:03:04 slackaholic: and instead of (+ whatever 1) we use (1+ whatever) 16:03:05 and there is no 'search' 16:03:26 outside of lexical references to functions, there is only one place any given function name can be defined, and for symbols that is the symbol-function slot 16:03:46 slackaholic: Though I think using an :after method on initialize-instance would be a better solution. 16:03:53 kpreid: no search, that's right. I grasp the concept now... Strangely this is the first time I hear about it 16:04:20 beach, i will try to implement it 16:04:40 slackaholic: Another thing, you are not allowed to use setq on variables that haven't been previously defined. 16:04:51 slackaholic: use something like defparameter instead. 16:05:21 beach, (defvar p1 nil) is a good solution? 16:05:56 beach, before setq of course... 16:05:58 slackaholic: try (defparameter *p1* (cria-pessoa ..)) 16:06:18 beach, global variable? 16:06:23 slackaholic: by convention, we try to use "earmuffs" on global variables. 16:07:02 beach: by c.l.j.p people you meant that java guy in "macros" thread? 16:07:07 beach, ok 16:07:08 (or, more correctly, special variables) 16:07:11 beach, thanks man 16:07:27 p_l: yeah, like "series expansion" and a few more. 16:07:32 beach, i will have lunch now... after i implement it! thanks again! 16:07:39 slackaholic: No problem.. 16:08:34 beach: I lost hope trying to find a readable form of that thread to read it from the start... 16:09:23 p_l: They are stereotypical cases of "performance oriented" people that refuse to accept facts (and keep repeating obvious verifiable falsehoods) because of cognitive dissonance. 16:10:03 p_l: Oh, I just sampled it, and every time I looked at an article, they repeated the most gross false statements. 16:10:20 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 16:10:21 beach: There's also that cognitive dissonance on what is OOP... 16:10:42 I think we need an equivalent of "C is pure functional language" but for OOP 16:11:10 p_l: That's different because it has to do with terminology. These people keep repeating that Emacs can only display text, that Lisp macros have the same limitations as those in C, etc. 16:11:30 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Client Quit] 16:11:39 In other words, obvious facts that can be checked. 16:11:49 what are symbols with bars around it called? 16:11:58 ramus`: symbols 16:12:09 beach: compare it with religion :) 16:12:15 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-140-111.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:12:24 well, what dictates that they have bars around then when printed? 16:12:24 madnificent: I am an atheist so it is tempting, yes. 16:12:29 ramus`: if you do that, they are case-sensitive 16:12:56 ramus`: A symbol is an internal data structure. The printer displays them that way, when it thinks that READ needs them to recreate the same symbol. 16:13:28 alright 16:13:39 ramus`: It can be because they have lower-case characters or spaces in int, or because it would otherwise be interpreted differently, like as a number. 16:13:48 beach: the new range of religions is science. You should try to claim that chemics is incorrect to those that 'practition' it. A lovely sight! 16:14:45 madnificent: Well, the thing is that these people are having opinions about Common Lisp, a thing which is outside their domain. 16:15:33 madnificent: But it is clear that their world would crumble if they were to accept facts, so they deny them. It is standard psychology, but pathetic to watch. 16:16:11 beach: perhaps only there where it is needed to believe their own superiority or otherwise to make their world fit... I find the latter one understandable, but given that fact that everyone wants to have made the right choice, it results in the first one (which I don't like) 16:20:33 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:21:08 beach: can you think of a better way to canonicalize and simplify typical index computations than ? 16:23:41 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 16:29:04 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-78-34-96-231.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:29:54 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-78-34-235-132.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:30:11 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 16:32:29 milaz [n=user@77.106.223.233] has joined #lisp 16:39:05 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-63-41.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:39:24 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 16:40:32 dysinger [n=tim@32.177.61.51] has joined #lisp 16:40:35 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:42:07 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-158-127.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:45:56 guille_ [n=user@106.Red-83-39-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:01 hi there 16:46:07 hi 16:46:24 -!- demmeln [n=demmeln@atradig121.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:47:55 i've upgraded from sbcl 1.0.25, to .28; and a lot of libraries installed with clbuild, says that i need to recompile fasl compiled files, can i recompile all of them with a command from the root of the libraries directory or something like this? 16:48:46 guille_: remove 'em all and they'll be compiled as needed :) 16:48:47 -!- sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-100-30.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:48:51 you could do something like 'find . -name \*.fasl -exec rm {} \;' 16:49:32 nemagem [n=hmoser@dslb-084-056-092-249.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:32 -!- nemagem [n=hmoser@dslb-084-056-092-249.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 16:54:33 guille_, there's also a snippet for your .sbclrc, in the SBCL's documentation, which facilitates automatic stale fasl recompilation 16:55:00 thanks 16:55:15 section 2.4.4.1 17:00:18 -!- milaz [n=user@77.106.223.233] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:06:14 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:06:48 -!- guille_ [n=user@106.Red-83-39-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:16:29 is there a way to temporarily disable the GC in CCL? 17:22:52 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@245.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:23:20 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-251.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:23:21 found it, nevermind. 17:29:02 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-154-248.3g.claro.net.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:29:40 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:32:28 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-100-30.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:33:27 willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:22 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-100-30.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:40:45 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@78.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:42:57 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:43:27 willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 17:48:18 willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 17:49:02 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:49:10 good evening 17:50:11 -!- willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:26 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:51:48 what do you call a web-thing where you have a thing like
with only the terms visible, and clicking on the term opens up the definition? 17:52:05 -!- jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has left #lisp 17:52:33 (i'm sure there's a name for it, but i can't think of it) 17:53:17 anyone understand MVC here? .. perhaps CLIM is doing something smart wrt. this? .. i wonder if i got it right; http://paste.lisp.org/display/80720 (annotation #1 contains a bit less custom syntax) .. i _think_ manipulation of the model via a controller from the repl is a good sign, but i seem to be doing this wrong in some way or another over and over and over again .. heh it's not tested much, but it'll run here f 17:53:17 or a while; http://sw.nostdal.ath.cx:6002/simple-event-flow-2 17:53:49 nikodemus: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html#edef-DL 17:53:54 dl is definition list. 17:54:15 jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has joined #lisp 17:54:51 Now, a presentation in the browser where the definition is hidden might be due to things such as javascript. 17:54:59 So, "script"? 17:56:27 nikodemus: probably some horrible combination of CSS and javascript :) 17:56:36 yeah, i do not think there exist something in pure HTML for doing or expressing that 17:56:42 HG` [n=wells@85.8.89.104] has joined #lisp 17:56:56 buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-100-30.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:57:13 with the actual display probably being done by a div, for divs are much-beloved by web designers 17:57:34 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-71-138-130-18.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:42 pjb`: i know what a dl is, but i'm thinking there's a term for the construct where definitions are initially hidden 17:57:52 (for bonus points, maybe a div which is being commanded to act like a totally different element which already exists, by CSS) 17:57:58 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-100-30.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:58:16 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:58:32 (which is afaik always a javacript thingie) 17:58:49 oh, well 17:58:53 nikodemus: perhaps in some framework such as dojo. But otherwise, it's hacks written in javascript (and using css too). 17:59:04 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:18 There's DOM tree manipulations, or css visible attribute set, etc. 17:59:27 hm, maybe there is no common name for the thingie 17:59:54 dynamically toggled definition lists (: 17:59:55 elias` [n=me@resnet-pat-254.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:59:58 doesn't plain CSS allow some sort of rudimentary mouseover thing? 18:00:11 *rsynnott* had forgotten that
existed 18:00:41 rsynnott, you can change the css attributes of some objects on mouseover 18:01:23 nikodemus: perhaps you may find it there: http://dojocampus.org/explorer/#Dojo_Data 18:02:38 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:03:02 How can I open all folds in the current function? 18:03:45 folds? 18:04:10 *sigh* I so wanted that to go to #vim. :) 18:04:21 Sorry, guys. 18:04:47 You can have that in Emacs, too. 18:04:49 i'd better not tell that it was for vim 18:04:54 s/i/you/ 18:05:35 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:06:01 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 18:07:03 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-66-138.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:56 willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:07 -!- willb [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:37 willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:39 nikodemus: actually, the HTML is not initially hidden usually. Either it's absent, or visible. Now the CSS may specify a hidden visibility, but the CSS is not always downloaded first (it is refered from the HTML to beginning with), so when you download such pages, sometimes you may see a glimpse of the data before it's formated. That's why such a web page may actually be made less portable, the data being absent, and added on demand 18:09:40 by the javascript. 18:11:02 -!- HG` [n=wells@85.8.89.104] has quit [Client Quit] 18:11:12 nikodemus, http://nostdal.ath.cx/lnostdal/expandable-lists.html 18:11:19 like that? 18:12:24 yeah, "display" tends to need special treatment to avoid flicker also .. it's nasty 18:13:44 oh, you said that .. ugh.. 18:16:03 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:17:38 HG` [n=wells@85.8.89.104] has joined #lisp 18:22:19 prabuinet [n=prabu@117.193.196.153] has joined #lisp 18:23:44 -!- HG` [n=wells@85.8.89.104] has quit [Client Quit] 18:23:58 ?: how to refresh window in xlib 18:24:11 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-84-187.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:26:22 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Success] 18:28:19 prabuinet: you will have to redraw it! 18:29:03 prabuinet: if you don't want the application to do it, then you must record either all the commands, or make a copy of the bitmap to be able to refresh it under the application. 18:29:17 pjb: yes, how to trigger repaint event programmatically 18:29:23 This is what is called a "backed" window, eg in GNUstep aka OpenStep. 18:29:58 prabuinet: well, it's your application. You do it however you want. From X, you may get EXPOSE events and you can use them to redraw the exposed parts (or everything). 18:30:56 pjb: if i want to make some animation; i want to refresh window every few secs; 18:31:00 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:31:21 prabuinet: if you want to make animation, you don't want to refresh the window. You just write the new frame every free seconds or faster. 18:31:53 So again, it depends on your application, you're the master here. You know when your application has a new frame available. 18:32:43 It's :EXPOSURE, the event you may want to process, when the animation is on hold. 18:32:46 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:32:52 lnostdal: something line that,yes 18:33:01 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:35:55 prabuinet: be sure to use XLIB:DISPLAY-FORCE-OUTPUT when you're done drawing a frame. 18:36:58 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:37:06 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 18:37:31 Good evening. 18:37:47 Bonsoir! 18:37:55 evening 18:38:30 letexpx [n=letexpx@LPuteaux-156-16-28-243.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:40:28 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-78-34-235-132.netcologne.de] has quit [] 18:40:33 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:38 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:40:39 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:40:39 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:40:59 So what did I miss? 18:41:20 Nothing. 18:41:33 Sorry to hear that! 18:42:04 Yeah, with the trolls on cll things are pretty uninteresting these weeks... 18:42:49 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:43:08 I am looking forward to going to ELS. I can't stand the admin work anymore. 18:43:31 -!- bdowning_ is now known as bdowning 18:43:57 beach: couldn't you hire an administrative assistant? Good professors or researchers should be allowed to do that... 18:44:29 deylen [n=deylen@93-97-208-39.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:44:33 pjb`: perhaps this is a sign I am neither a good professor nor a good researcher. 18:44:58 Better ask your student, but if they forked lisp startups, I'd tend to think you are a good teacher ;-) 18:45:04 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-78-34-235-132.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:45:09 studentS... 18:45:17 Has to be systemic then... 18:45:29 which uni do you teach in 18:45:31 -!- willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:45:43 rullie: University of Bordeaux 18:48:08 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:48:35 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:39 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:48:53 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 18:49:22 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:49:32 -!- deylen [n=deylen@93-97-208-39.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 18:49:36 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC."] 18:49:50 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest59514 18:50:09 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:15 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:14 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 18:51:43 -!- Guest59514 is now known as pkhuong 18:52:12 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:52:20 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:55:03 pjb`: It is hard to see who is going to write a report on the promotion of a colleague in my place, or who is going to read the research record of a Parisian colleague who wants to obtain a "habilitation à diriger la recherche", or who is going to write the report on external candiates applying for positions here. It is admin stuff, but no secretary could do the job. 18:55:51 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-123.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:04 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-84-187.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:57:14 beach: you know we can "read the mind", that is, with electrodes, sample the various brain parts activity. Then you could just do that while writting different kind of documents, encode the resulting data in a neural network, and obtain an assistant that would react the same as you. You'd essentially have cloned your mind. 18:57:45 pjb`: Ah, yes, I would like someone like that. 18:59:53 pjb`: The budget doesn't allow for that kind of assistant at the moment. I'll start suggesting that to the president, though. 19:00:27 -!- Zenton``` [n=user@77.210.190.191] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:01:03 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-78-34-235-132.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:01:29 Zenton``` [n=user@77.210.190.191] has joined #lisp 19:02:07 willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 19:02:36 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 19:04:29 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@LPuteaux-156-16-28-243.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:06:59 http://jandmworks.com/slime.html#Launching%20an%20SBCL%20core%20dump%20as%20a%20daemon 19:08:17 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 19:08:32 I tried that puppy and I get a couldn't read from # http://www.hydrairc.com <-"] 19:15:16 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:52 there is no one good graphics toolkit for cl? 19:16:14 mcclim! 19:16:31 when i slime-eval-buffer and get an error, it doesn't put the source buffers line at the error, like I expect (based on using emacs to compiler and being able to click on compiler errors) 19:16:36 does firefox/chromium + hunchentoot count? 19:16:51 stassats: i mean good! 19:16:59 prabuinet: it is good. 19:17:02 prabuinet: good enough for me 19:17:07 -!- Zenton``` [n=user@77.210.190.191] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:17:44 oudeis [n=oudeis@80.250.159.240] has joined #lisp 19:17:46 Zenton``` [n=user@77.210.190.191] has joined #lisp 19:19:16 derekv: why not C-c C-k ? 19:19:46 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:19:59 stassats, no reason 19:20:23 hmm weird 19:21:13 oh, i was looking at the slime REPL 19:21:19 cool thanks 19:24:37 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has quit [] 19:24:54 nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:00 Hello all. 19:25:08 Hey nyef 19:25:50 Anything interesting happening, or is it just a lazy memorial day weekend? 19:26:04 blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.208.138] has joined #lisp 19:26:22 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-115-93.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:26:25 oh, it's a holiday in the US? 19:26:32 was wondering why things were so quiet 19:26:42 Yeah, monday is memorial day. 19:26:50 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:28:13 nyef: In France, last Thursday was a holiday, and then of course most people took Friday off. Some people (like me) had to work not only Thursday and Friday, but Saturday and Sunday as well, because we are going to ELS on Tuesday, and me and my wife are staying in Milan for some leisure activities until Monday. 19:28:28 Ahh. 19:28:55 -!- prabuinet [n=prabu@117.193.196.153] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:29:08 Well, enjoy your leisure activities, and I hope ELS goes well. 19:29:46 nyef: I'm sure it will be great, at least if I count on it duplicating the success of ELS2008 in Bordeaux. 19:30:26 lisppaste: url? 19:30:26 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 19:30:37 One of these days I should attend a lisp conference/symposium/whatever instead of just showing up at BLM whenever I can. 19:31:01 ASau pasted "SBCL bootstrap failure on FreeBSD" at http://paste.lisp.org/+1QAE 19:31:11 nyef: Yes, that would be fun. How about ELW? 19:31:21 That's... a new URL scheme. 19:31:32 ELW? 19:31:33 Something's bad with mmap or malloc assumptions. 19:31:51 At first glance. 19:31:54 ASau`: mmap assumptions. I can think of three possibilities. 19:32:01 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:32:25 ASau`: One is that it's an already-allocated space, one is that you have address space randomization enabled, and one is that you have a low ulimit. 19:32:33 Umm... And the fourth has to do with overcommit. 19:32:37 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:32:55 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:33:01 I don't use ASLR. 19:33:16 ulimit doesn't help, I've checked. 19:33:23 nyef: There are three major annual Lisp events in Europe these days. ELS is the European Lisp Symposium, ECLM is the European Common Lisp Meeting, and ELW is the European Lisp Workshop in association with ECOOP. 19:33:31 Or... what is the required? 19:33:54 beach: Ahh. Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be leaving the USA any time soon. :-/ 19:34:13 nyef: Aww! This would be the opportunity! 19:34:55 nyef: To what places outside the US have you been already? 19:34:59 Maybe after I get my passport and such renewed. 19:35:09 With concious memory? The UK. 19:35:30 nyef: You need to get out some more! 19:35:46 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-28-30.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:35:47 I'm told that prior to the dawn of memory I was taken to spain and germany. 19:36:21 nyef: I don't know much about ELW, but I can tell you ELS and ECLM are great places to be. 19:36:31 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:36:54 nyef: what's preventing you? Budget constraints? 19:37:02 Budget constraints largely, yes. 19:37:17 Haven't had the money to keep my travel paperwork in order. 19:37:30 My passport, for example, expired a while ago. 19:37:42 Isn't it quite cheap to travel nowadays, if you're from the US? (at least if you travel to Sweden. ;) 19:38:20 (somewhat strong USD) 19:38:41 A strong dollar doesn't help if you don't have any to spare. 19:38:42 hmm... not that the apple bug reporter doesn't have it's own problems, but it occurs to me that maybe some automagically generated post-mortem diagnostics saved to a text file somewhere might be a useful thing for tracking down problems occurring in the wild... 19:39:07 my reference to the apple bug reporter was inspired by the fact that it just popped up as safari crashed, again. 19:42:07 tic: I don't know about nyef but most Americans get their priorities wrong in my opinion, because they own a vehicle. Granted, most places in the US are hard to live in if you don't own one. Then again, I am wondering, just like I am wondering about the Scandinavians, why there are still people living there. 19:42:29 tic: Strong USD? It's 1.13 to the swiss franc, which is very low 19:42:47 Mmm... It's a pain to get around without a car in most places in the US. :-/ 19:42:49 lowest I've ever seen was like 1.09 and I don't think that was more then a day or two 19:43:09 beach, at least we don't have cars, right? 19:43:14 It's stronger than it should be, I'll give you that. :) 19:43:34 nyef: Just like I said. I prefer not to drive andhave my taxi driver "Emile" pick me up wherever I happen to be. 19:43:51 *stassats`* prefers bicycle 19:44:18 Bicycle or train is nice. But it just isn't an option in the majority of the US 19:44:38 tic: To me owning a car is submitting to social pressure. I prefer having a private driver. 19:44:58 beach, a private driver, aka taxi, or like a butler? 19:45:13 Oh, just read. 19:45:36 tic: The USD is weak compared to the EURO. You are still thinking the SEK is one of the main internationally important currencies in the world! Forget it! 19:46:05 beach: Indeed, the only worthwhile car is the Bentley with chauffeur, I agree. 19:46:14 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:46:18 beach, haha, of course I don't! :-) However, it has gotten slightly stronger compared to a few months ago. 19:46:24 pjb`: Sounds good! 19:46:35 *tic* throws gruyère blocks at beach. 19:46:55 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:47:14 tic: Well, yes, Emile is not there waiting for me any time of the day, but very close, because he is within 10min after a phone call most of the time. 19:47:32 I got me an Air Car. 19:47:40 It flies. 19:47:46 Weee 19:47:51 sledge: Sounds good! 19:48:11 "Is it anything like an Air Guitar"? 19:48:17 heh 19:49:24 If it rocked, it wouldn't fly. 19:49:36 Rather, I'd be Vogon battleship. 19:49:41 *it 19:50:22 I'd prefer a phone booth. 19:50:40 tic: Owning a car in Bordeaux, you get to walk to the restaurant and pay for the parking, and then you can't drink any wine. With Emile, you sit in your cozy restaurant and sip your "digestif" until Emile steps in the door and announces that he is there to pick you up. And this is *much* cheaper than owning a car yourself. 19:50:44 ... Hey, why don't we stack-allocate UWPs as if they were dynamic-extent data structures? 19:50:44 -!- jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has left #lisp 19:50:47 jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has joined #lisp 19:51:29 beach, *nod* I didn't think you'd be the one who spends money just for the heck of it. Besides, isn't most things within walking-distance anyway? 19:51:50 (Or do d-x allocations end up in the normal stack frame packing junk as well?) 19:51:57 tic: Not really. Bordeaux is the most spread-out city in France. 19:52:14 But still, you can easily find a flat near the center... 19:52:53 alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-34-99-125.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:01 mikezor [n=mikael@c-a1e370d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:53:02 pjb, I'd probably move to Germany/Austria/Switzerland or the US before I move to Bx, but good to know. :-) 19:53:05 pjb`: true, but we have a paid-for air-conditioned 160-m² house in Mérignac for two people. 19:53:18 Great! 19:54:31 pjb`: The thing I like about France is that luxury is cheap! 19:55:32 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-5-213.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:55:47 pjb`: I just found an agancy called "Agence Mieux Vivre" that suggests all kinds of tax-deductible services like cooking, gardening etc for 7.5 EUR/hour. 19:55:56 beach: Did you see the documentary about Bhutan and Gross National Happiness index? 19:56:16 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:19 pjb`: No, but I have heard about it before. Excellent idea! 19:56:46 A "happiness index"? 19:56:51 Yes. 19:57:04 How on earth do they compute -that- in a meaningful way? 19:57:13 In the "Middle Age", they had about four month of holidays a year, only for religious holidays. 19:57:25 nyef, 0 to 100, of course! 19:57:28 nyef: Bhutan developed a model to compute that index. 19:57:32 pjb`: Among other things, this agency offers "massage à domicile" for 15 EUR/h, which is not *that* much more expensive than Ho Chi Minh City. 19:57:48 pjb`, is that documented somewhere? it must be very complex, and not really say much on an individual level. 19:57:55 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-162-42.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_national_happiness 19:58:34 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1D204.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:52 nyef: Are you suggesting that GDP is "meaningful"? I disagree! 19:59:06 -!- Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 19:59:08 GDP is silly. 19:59:18 it measures waste! 19:59:22 GDP is at least quantitative and measurable. 19:59:54 aggieben: like the guy who searched his keys below the lamp, because that was the only place where he could see... 20:00:13 aggieben: Yeah, excactly the problem we have with the software industry! Measure what we are able to measure except what is important! 20:00:33 pjb`: not really 20:00:38 pjb`: Well said! 20:00:46 aggieben: Yes, really! 20:00:47 And what's more, government react to changes in indicators of 1/10 of percent, but any medium sized corporation may report its data in such a way as to change indicators by this 1/10 of percent... 20:01:33 pjb`: name me one medium sized corporation whose entire revenues make 1/10% of GDP 20:02:06 I don't think that's what pjb` meant to say. 20:03:05 A lot of those figures are meaningless. If you look at that stuff you would think the US is the biggest producer in the world. They are: of credit 20:03:35 aggieben: well, indeed, not a single one, but there are group movements. Eg. a lot of people may react the same to a news, and react in such a way that the "error" of an index measurement is greater than a few percent. 20:04:12 But some are good like the "best city to live in". It's funny, most of my friends back home in the US always say the US is the best country in the world (I guess I did too before I discovered Europe) but the US never gets a city in the top 25 20:04:41 jbjohns, you're from the US living in .ch? 20:04:45 jbjohns: How did you discover Europe? 20:04:53 married a Europien 20:04:59 tic: yes 20:05:30 *stassats`* thought Europeans discovered America 20:05:32 honestly I don't ever plan to go back. Never is a long time, so I can't say for sure, but at this point in time I can't imagine too many things that would cause it 20:05:43 jbjohns: Yes, some Swiss cities are usually cited as the best places to live. 20:06:10 Swiss and Canada are at the top. I don't know how France places but people I talk with speak highly of it 20:06:15 *nha* though Asians discovered America 20:06:21 kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:32 Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:06:39 Seems like they have a pretty good system. I mean, I'm sure there are things that suck but countries are like radio stations: They all suck. Some just suck less 20:06:41 jbjohns: I won't ever live in Sweden or the US again if I have a choice. 20:07:17 You didn't like Sweden? What was wrong with it? From what I've heard I thought it was a shining example of socialism working 20:07:25 it's always good to live somewhere where you are not right now 20:07:26 or was it just the sun thing 20:07:26 nha: The first Americans came from close to Bordeaux. 20:08:30 beach: you mean modern Americans then of course... 20:08:46 jbjohns: That's a wide-spread lie that the Swedish government has successfully imposed on the world. Except that everything is better in France! 20:08:48 (although applying 'modern' to Americans is a bit weird..) 20:08:59 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 20:09:14 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-81-1.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:09:21 beach: I think it's fairly certain that the first Americans came via the Bering strait, i.e. from Asia 20:09:24 stassats': I disagree. I lived in the US, but for some reason the patritism stuff never really took with me. Objectively I can't see anything the US has over... most anywhere in western Europe. I do see how Switzerland has a lot of advantages, though I'm not yet sure if their system is optimal or not 20:09:39 thijso: No, I meant that American Indians are Europeans as well as Asians. 20:10:04 nha: That is old thinking these days. 20:10:27 beach: on the other hand, I'm not sure that there is full consensus on that yet 20:10:36 *aggieben* agrees with nha about the Bering strait. 20:10:45 thijso: eh, United States of North America is quite a young country... :P 20:10:51 but I'm not in that field and haven't really followed it, so I might have missed something 20:11:04 thijso: Sure, I'll grant you that. But I saw a fairly convincing documentary hinting that. 20:11:41 p_l: uhm, yeah... but which of my blurts were you answering to? The 'modern' one? 20:11:44 beach: seriously? You mean to say there were humans which crossed the Atlantic many thousand years ago? I'd like to see something to back that up... 20:11:51 thijso: "modern" 20:11:54 because 'young' does not equal 'modern'... 20:11:59 look at the Americans! 20:12:06 thijso: It seems, native Americans are pretty upset about the gentic results, because they have always resented the Europeans for invading them. 20:12:25 heh... 20:12:48 beach: I'm not impartial to their feelings in that, actually... ;) 20:13:58 thijso: I can understand the emotions, but I also can't see anoyone denying the facts, if that should turn out to be the case. 20:14:08 no, I agree 20:14:37 aw. I'd cooked up a silly comparison between Europeans and Pythonistas, but you've all since moved on from crapping on the US. 20:14:51 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.162.22] has quit ["Log this!"] 20:15:27 Someone needs to make a real study and see how to make the best possible country 20:15:44 jbjohns: I believe someone did. His name was Marx. 20:15:46 white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@c-69-143-160-4.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:50 one-man-country 20:16:01 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@80.250.159.240] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:16:01 jbjohns: ruled by Friendly Superintelligent AGI ? 20:16:01 that was just theorizing, I want to see some actual scientific method applied to it 20:16:29 We seem to have some good examples of socialism working ok (and some examples of it working poorly), I'd like to see some good Libertarian examples 20:17:02 jbjohns: I know of know examples of socialism that I would describe as "working ok" 20:17:04 coming from the US I have a fundamental distrust in government and strong expectation that they are incapable of doing anything useful for very long 20:17:09 jbjohns: there are several problems with that goal, most importantly that there is probably only a best possible country if you use a very simplistic definition of "best" 20:17:14 uh...."know of no" 20:17:27 jbjohns: Well, you can make a pretty decent graph-theoretic argument that it should be the size of France, because then you get to be the largest food exporter and the country that receives the most tourists per year. 20:17:46 nha: agreed - defining "best" seems to be one of the fundamental problems 20:17:54 aggieben: I don't mean pure socialism, I'm using the word the way people use the word "functional" to describe a programming language. I.e. far enough to that side of the scale 20:18:16 i.e. the way "socialism" is used in the US ;) 20:18:21 jbjohns: I know what you mean. I suspect that you and I have different definitions of "working ok". 20:18:46 well, my definition is people that aren't shackled by the system. Happy and free people 20:19:23 it's boring to be always happy 20:19:40 The US wouldn't score highly on such a system because the social part is so poor that one lives in fear that some idiot high up in the company makes a bad decision and suddenly you're jobless with 0 income 20:20:10 -!- milanj- [n=milan@79.101.169.246] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:20:19 I remember getting "made redundant" at my first company here in Switzerland. I thought "Oh my God! And I was going to go on vacation in 2 weeks! Oh wait.... maybe I'll just go anyway" 20:20:30 Never could have done that in the US 20:20:38 jbjohns: but think about it, is it really good to have so big corporations? Wouldn't it better if everybody was free-lance and aggregation were only of the needed size without oversizing? 20:21:15 pjb: I hate big corporations. I'm hopeful that technology will give smaller firms the agility to overcome the advantages big firms have and make them obsolete 20:21:15 pjb`: this discussion was never about big corporations as far as I can tell 20:21:16 jao [n=jao@27.Red-79-155-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:54 milanj [n=milan@79.101.169.246] has joined #lisp 20:21:54 nha: well as long as we're OT... 20:22:11 jbjohns: big corporations have their merits. it's not all about how much money or paid time off its employees can milk out of it. 20:22:15 pjb`: yeah, I just stumbled across the "but ..." 20:22:47 as it happens, I don't like working for big corps either, but some people do. 20:22:49 -!- delqna [n=delqna@p54A3667C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:23:13 aggieben: What merits? The main argument I hear is "economy of scale" but no one scales as big as Walmart. If economy of scale works so well, why do they nickle and dime their vendors literally out of business? 20:23:43 why does one have to scale as big as Wal-Mart to achieve economy of scale? 20:23:45 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-251.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:24:17 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-251.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Client Quit] 20:24:17 no, I'm using that as an example. If economy of scale is good then let's look at the biggest example of it and see how well it's working 20:25:15 And you use Wal-Mart as an example of it not working? 20:25:28 and I'd say not very well. Just because Walmart buys things by the millions (as opposed to 10's or 100's) doesn't magically squeeze prices down. The lower prices are achieved by decreasing labor costs. 20:25:33 seriously off topic here. 20:25:36 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:25:47 You would use it as an example of working? Seriously? 20:25:50 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-251.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:26:09 I mean, sure, the most dollars pass through their fingers, that's true. But that's a rather shallow definition of good in my view 20:26:37 jbjohns: it's a spectacularly good example - the living standard of any town that gets a Wal-Mart goes up immediately the day the doors open 20:26:37 #social_studies and #social_economy are over there --> 20:26:47 Fade: agree. I'm out of this discussion 20:26:52 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.169.246] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:26:57 that OT became boring 20:27:49 Fade: I agree it is off-topic. Having said that, I think #lisp is populated with smart people who can understand that there are political goals and individual ones, and that those are different. 20:28:05 sure, but it's irrelevant. 20:28:17 aggieben: I disagree that the quality of life goes up, but I wont say anymore here as requested 20:28:18 MORE CODE 20:28:27 discussion of such goals should be convened in another channel. 20:28:34 -!- p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-647abc8a2fb35013] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:28:38 Indeed, we should be writting AIs to do thinks kind of thinking. 20:28:45 Fade: Not quite irrelevant, but we shold keep that discussion to a minimun, yes. 20:28:45 s/thinks/this/ 20:29:10 p_l [n=plasek@89.248.166.201] has joined #lisp 20:29:16 "the best city to Lisp"? 20:29:19 Fade: That's true, but honestly I'm more interested in the opinions of people who are drawn to lisp than from the kind of folks that will likely be in those channels. :) 20:29:20 oh... this isn't Lads Interested in Social Problems? 20:29:32 Tordek [n=tordek@host29.190-138-170.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:29:39 the lisp gods finally smiled apon me...after 10 hours i finally got swank-deamon to work correctly...now i can finally deploy mi hunchentoot sites...yeaha 20:29:58 *aggieben* thinks someone should rename IRC to CFPWCSA: "Chat for People Who Can't Stop Arguing" 20:30:18 who was arguing? I thought it was an interesting discussion 20:30:21 anyway.. food... 20:30:26 this channel is useful because we generally maintain topic discipline. 20:30:37 although it has been drifting since xach disappeared. 20:30:56 thijso: I finally got it, but it might have been largely wasted :) 20:30:58 "Irate Reprobates Conversing" 20:30:58 in Trillian Astra it looks like everyone disappeared 20:31:59 Fade: I don't find the drifts here annoying, even though technically OT. 20:32:09 jbjohns: that wasn't intended toward you specifically. I've had a number of unenjoyable "discussions" on IRC with people who weren't worth the time. The above wasn't one of them. 20:33:10 ah ok good. I've also had such discussions. Though I think most of them were on topic. :) 20:33:24 Fade: People here are generally so much smarter than "Series Expansion" on c.l.l that I don't mind a (serious) OT discussion from tim to time. 20:33:27 most of the IRC suckage I experienced was on EFnet, a.k.a. hell 20:33:54 *stassats`* uses irc only for #lisp 20:34:07 me too! 20:34:17 it isn't that the odd interesting OT discussion is a problem. it's when the channel's signal to noise ratio falls down the slippery slope. 20:34:29 #c++ is a good channel, as is #linpeople 20:34:35 anyhow, i'm not an operator. i'll leave such policing to xof and drew. 20:34:39 Fade: sure! 20:35:09 I use it for all the programming languages I'm interested in. At the moment I can't lisp much. I'm in unix admin mode.... Releasing a php store that I will be rewritting in Lisp the moment I get a spare hand 20:35:28 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@245.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:36:29 jbjohns: Fine, but you need to spell "rewriting" like most of us do. 20:36:55 Odd, wonder why spell check didn't catch that.... 20:37:07 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:16 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-162-42.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:38:25 jbjohns: A better spell checker is one of the Lisp projects I suggest. 20:38:55 with a grammar check? 20:39:01 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 20:39:19 I suggest that too, yes! 20:39:31 I would like to see a better way of dealing with multiple languages 20:40:08 jbjohns: natural ones or programming ones?" 20:40:10 *stassats`* needs only two languages most of the time and they use different scripts, so no problem 20:40:15 natural. For web sites 20:40:55 jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 20:41:01 my idea was to make a "translated string" object that was just a hash with an entry for each supported language. Then when the web request comes the preferred lang is just passed all the way down. Every string with a translation would translate 20:41:03 *beach* hates the web 20:41:32 I can see that point of view. I hate the giant ball of mud it is today 20:42:15 but, we haven't got anything else 20:42:26 agreed 20:42:47 jbjohns: Whenever I have to interacte with the web, I ask my wife to do it for me because it is a place that is too frustrating place for me. 20:42:49 Lisp needs to make a platform to compete with Silverlight 20:43:19 what is silverlight? 20:43:30 jbjohns: It does? 20:44:00 Silverlight is C#'s answer to Java applets, but better (mostly) 20:44:27 beach: I would say so. Lots of businesses run on the web and this mass of HTML+CSS+Javascript is just a mess 20:44:34 no, silverlight is Microsoft's answer to Flash. 20:44:51 yes sort of, but flash isn't a complete language right? 20:45:02 Flash is a runtime 20:45:13 I mean, Java applets are all but dead, but I meant that Silverlight has the power that an applet could 20:46:03 I've heard bad things about Flash programming. There was a guy who was making Lisp+Smalltalk on top of flash. When Silverlight came out he seemed to drop Flash in favor of it. But now he seems to have died or something 20:46:09 Yes, I suppose so, roughly - but Java applets aren't the target competitor. 20:46:25 true, from an end user point of view you're absolutely right 20:47:54 Flash from a graphical standpoint has its bugs and issues, but the language is nice and the VM is very fast. 20:48:39 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:48:40 The language is nice? Ok. Not sure what the complaints were against it then. Maybe it was just Adobe hate 20:49:38 Adobe has earned a lot of hate from developers & power graphical users from what I've seen 20:49:45 this guy: http://vistasmalltalk.wordpress.com/ had some kind of compiler that would do Lisp on top of Flash 20:50:14 and the .swf file format and VM bytecode are all openly documented now 20:50:16 blbrown [n=Berlin@71.236.25.127] has joined #lisp 20:50:17 he used it to make a Smalltalk system but the lisp was still accessible (even from inside smalltalk) 20:51:45 the problem with flash is obviously that it's the proprietary personal property of a single entity and it has become a defacto standard that ultimately decreases the utility of the web. 20:52:11 meh 20:52:48 but this would be true of Silverlight as well. One could argue it isn't the case with Java, but that leaves one stuck with Java 20:52:49 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 20:53:03 well, I guess Clojure is a good comprimise 20:53:11 and java applets are deader than dead 20:53:41 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-123.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:54:06 and good riddance. There are two times surfing the web I actually grown: When I realize a PDF is going to try and open in my brower and when that java cup shows up in my task bar (and 2 minutes later some stupid applet) 20:54:08 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-123.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:55 *p_l* doesn't have any support for java applets... 20:55:01 jbjohns: they are homonyms, but you're looking for 'groan' 20:55:30 ugh, two in less than an hour. Time to go to bed 20:55:37 ironically, I had to run a java applet recently, and the only way I could run it was by finding a windows machine and using IE 20:55:46 haha 20:57:31 Does anyone know if I can make huchentoot break into lisp on error instead of printing a message (to log or browser)? 20:57:37 curious how java applets could've done everything people got started doing with flash, had it had a suitable graphics library and whizzy authoring tool 20:57:57 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-251.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 20:57:59 -!- _sohail_ [n=Sohail@d207-81-121-15.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:58:47 i don't think that was the only reason 20:58:58 -!- jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:02 java was very heavyweight back then 20:59:10 you waited minutes for the vm to load 20:59:20 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:24 minutes? I seem to remember a few seconds. 20:59:27 flash was a snap compared to that 20:59:41 good point, though. 20:59:47 it's still pretty heavy. The hotspot VM is pretty advanced but it's best at longer running scenarios. Not fast startups 20:59:53 flash also had no scripting language back then either, so it wasn't a direct competitor anyway 20:59:54 flash, another triumph of "worse is better" ! 21:00:02 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 21:00:08 a few seconds 10 yeara ago ? 21:00:12 i dont thinkso 21:00:27 I think so. 21:00:46 *Phoodus* concurs about the "few seconds" as well 21:00:58 that was when it worked 21:01:11 still, long enough to make me furious whenever I chanced upon a java applet ;) 21:01:13 more often than not the browser would crash and burn 21:02:24 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Life is all about ass; you're either covering it, laughing it off, kicking it, kissing it, busting it, trying to get a piece ] 21:04:23 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-251.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:05:57 semanage port -l|grep http 21:06:01 ack, wrong channel. sorry 21:09:26 -!- jao [n=jao@27.Red-79-155-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:10:36 rswarbrick [n=user@cpc1-cove3-0-0-cust907.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:44 jao [n=jao@189.Red-79-155-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:07 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 21:18:49 ejs [n=eugen@101-198-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:40 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 21:20:08 yakman_ [n=bot@94-194-134-155.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:21:47 what does the # notation mean, for example #(127 0 0 1) 21:21:48 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-124-69.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 21:21:58 It's a array 21:22:05 ah, ty 21:23:41 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-127-33.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:31 # is a dispatch macro character 21:30:41 beach: herep 21:35:40 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:08 -!- jao [n=jao@189.Red-79-155-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 21:39:14 is there a macroexpand-1 for reader macros btw.? 21:39:33 ..or something similar that lets one examine the sexpr result from a reader macro? 21:40:49 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:41:17 lnostdal: READ. There's no fixpointing for reader macros, and the recursion is done explicitly by the macros, so macroexpand-1 (or macroexpand) -like functionality doesn't make sense. 21:41:33 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:44:09 -!- white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@c-69-143-160-4.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:45:11 ok .. maybe it'd be possible to add a variable or a flag .. and have reader macros return something quoted 21:45:14 ..for debugging 21:48:05 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:50:12 heh, or just quoting a form that uses reader-macros shows the result ofc. 21:51:04 -!- ejs [n=eugen@101-198-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:52:13 http://rafb.net/p/Ty65pH22.html 21:55:49 doesn't seem to apply to "built in"(?) reader macros though 21:58:03 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:58:17 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 21:59:10 lnostdal: use READ[-FROM-STRING], not the REPL. 22:00:21 I'm not sure I see the point of that reader macro, btw. A wrapper macro around symbol-macrolet would probably be less error-prone. 22:00:43 -!- dysinger [n=tim@32.177.61.51] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:01:18 you're thinking clashes? 22:01:30 pkhuong: if the application uses it a lot it's got as much justification as FUNCTION 22:02:36 yeah, when i'm not going via slots as an indirection layer i got to use "cells" and deref them, as indirection .. but ~ is maybe not the best idea as it might be a character used in other's code and all (?) 22:02:50 kpreid: having to declare the cell only once, at the definition site, instead of both the definition and *every* use, seems much more useful. 22:03:20 pkhuong: true: consider my statement to be the advice given no assumptions about usage pattern 22:03:57 pkhuong: I think lnostdal could use some further explanation of your proposal though 22:03:58 i do use a macro too; (with-cells (cell-1 cell-2) .. then the user refer to them directly as cell-1 without ~ here ..) 22:04:10 (let-cell ((x ...)) ...) => (let ((#:TMP ...)) (symbol-macrolet ((x ...)) ...)). One could even implement a FUNCTION-like macro to introduce cells back in the value world, using lexenvs and macroexpand-1. 22:04:17 ..but that's a hassle for small contexts 22:04:40 well, if you're *making* the cell at the same time then you can combine that with the with-cells 22:04:46 and it would be overall shorter 22:05:03 yeah, i do that too pkhuong .. or i do (let () (with-cells () ..)) as i might do (defun .. (a-cell) (with-cells (a-cell) ..)) and i don't want to add let-cells defun-cells etc. etc.etc. 22:05:12 i agree 22:05:27 -!- rswarbrick [n=user@cpc1-cove3-0-0-cust907.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 22:05:29 willb1 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 22:05:48 mostly i go via a metaclass anyway though 22:06:01 ..so no deref (or ~) or with-cells then 22:06:18 ..and ofc. no let-cells either 22:07:03 benny99 [n=benny@p5486C1CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:01 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:08:56 im trying to make a function where you pass a format string and args, it passes them to (format) but you get a list of the args with &rest, and (format) cant accept that list, how would i get around that? 22:09:04 clhs apply 22:09:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 22:09:06 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:09:57 Gertm` [n=user@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 22:10:02 yakman_: Or get a book and read (more). Just about every introduction to lisp covers APPLY. 22:10:39 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-124-69.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:11:44 even though I've been on Dvorak for many months, I still try to type "asdf" on the left side of the home row. 22:13:25 aoeu 22:13:31 ..didn't work 22:13:31 :) 22:13:55 ASDF should be renamed for that reason .. it used to be easier to type 22:14:42 I've been playing with xcvb lately ... it's still qwerty-biased, but at least I don't have the muscle memory. 22:14:42 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-34-99-125.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:14:57 thank you pkhuong, i got it working 22:15:10 -!- Gertm [n=Gertm@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit ["C-x C-c"] 22:15:16 -!- Gertm` is now known as Gertm 22:15:18 iv been reading practical common lisp, it does cover apply, but i forgot about it.. 22:15:52 heh .. someone just added a "Tweet this!" to paste.lisp.org? :) 22:16:29 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-0.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 22:17:42 -!- Gertm [n=user@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:17:57 Gertm [n=user@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 22:18:32 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.204.207] has joined #lisp 22:19:29 how can I intern a symbol in a package that is the same as that of a given symbol? 22:19:34 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-182-131-168.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:05 -!- willb2 [n=wibenton@173-18-243-255.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:23:55 madnificent: (intern (symbol-package )) 22:24:13 alexbobp [n=alex@ppp-70-253-78-64.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:14 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:25:16 ah, symbol-package :) 22:25:35 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 22:26:12 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:26:33 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 22:27:08 milanj [n=milan@93.87.167.30] has joined #lisp 22:31:40 give pappa some syntactic sugar, baby 22:33:43 (progn (give *papa* (make-instance 'syntactic-sugar :really-p nil)) (laugh *madnificent* :at *derekv*) (apologize *madnificent* :at *derekv*)) 22:34:30 how sweet it is 22:34:34 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1085.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:35:26 derekv: so, what have you built? :) 22:35:49 nothing, i keep playing klotski 22:36:24 -!- Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-3-95.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:38:40 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.196.132] has joined #lisp 22:41:46 dys [n=andreas@p5B316625.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:09 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 22:44:56 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.204.207] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:50:48 -!- benny99 [n=benny@p5486C1CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:54:38 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.167.30] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:09 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-123.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:01:40 -!- milanj- [n=milan@79.101.196.132] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:02:52 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:15:06 -!- mqt [n=tran@129.21.149.12] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:20:59 jroes [n=jroes@rube.serapio.org] has joined #lisp 23:23:06 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:55 -!- yakman_ [n=bot@94-194-134-155.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:27:05 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:27:37 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 23:27:46 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 23:30:23 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:34:47 SBCL again. Is it possible that DYNAMIC_SPACE_START is too high or too low? 23:35:05 "too high" for what platform? 23:35:41 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-215-133.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:09 ASau pasted "SBCL bootstrap failure on FreeBSD" at http://paste.lisp.org/+1QAE 23:37:40 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:03 Possible. Might be something else. ulimit? lack of overcommit? 23:38:08 milaz [n=user@85.175.32.101] has joined #lisp 23:38:12 -!- jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:38:19 What is "overcommit"? 23:38:29 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:38:32 ulimit isn't the reason. 23:38:41 hefner [n=hefner@scatterbrain.cbp.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 23:38:49 I don't think SBCL needs 580 MB of memory. 23:38:54 allocate more memory than you physically have 23:40:00 ASau: no, it needs address space. If you read the error message, you'll see that a mmap for 1GB of address space failed. 23:40:52 3312 sbcl CALL mmap(0x58000000,0x40000000,0x7,0x1012,0xffffffff,0,0,0) 23:40:52 3312 sbcl RET mmap -1 errno 12 Cannot allocate memory 23:41:02 ASau: Overcommit means that the OS is willing to allocate more address space than it has physical memory. Which works perfectly fine when programs don't actually use all of it for data. 23:41:04 1 GB? 23:42:48 Hm. 23:43:05 Does it really need 1 GB? 23:43:31 What is common way to lower that? 23:43:44 -!- milaz [n=user@85.175.32.101] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:44:00 --dynamic-space-size 23:44:16 Thanks. 23:44:16 milaz [n=user@85.175.32.101] has joined #lisp 23:44:22 Checking... 23:45:04 SBCL can work just fine without overcommit by default, if mmap honors all arguments ;-) 23:46:40 p_l: oh? what's this fine point? 23:47:04 -!- ausente is now known as dalton 23:47:04 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:47:11 How much space does it really need. 23:47:24 It's running now... 23:47:30 Well, that rather depends on what you want to do with it. 23:47:37 ; SYS:SRC;PCL;DESCRIBE.FASL.NEWEST written 23:47:37 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6BC8A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 23:47:37 ; compilation finished in 0:00:00.895 23:47:52 For bootstrapping at first. 23:48:11 kpreid: I mean the nice way of Linux not honoring requests concerning whether pages should be strictly allocated (i.e. do not wait for access, allocate now) or not allocated at all (even lazily), just signal segfault (which AFAIK is what SBCL and CCL want) 23:51:22 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:51:33 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:51:44 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:52:58 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp