00:01:47 drafael [n=tapio@130.216.93.139] has joined #lisp 00:02:05 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 00:02:06 jfactor [n=jfactor@c-71-230-33-184.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:31 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:17:48 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:19:06 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@dsl092-045-116.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [] 00:19:28 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:22 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:24:56 adeht` [n=death@bzq-84-110-250-121.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:00 -!- adeht` is now known as adeht 00:26:25 well... turns out most of the scheduler noise is useless for a peephole pass. Yay. 00:27:05 Hey, know anything about type-vops? 00:27:10 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:25 nope. I cargo-culted for SSE-PACK. 00:27:32 Fair enough, then. 00:28:54 And it's sufficiently late in the day that I don't want to try and figure this out. 00:31:41 minion: arm port log? 00:31:41 arm port log: http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-arm/port-log.txt 00:32:48 There we go, all up to date. 00:38:44 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:38:52 nyef: what's x86-specific about the generic nil array vop? 00:39:36 froydnj: The invocations of error-call. 00:40:03 Specifically, error-call is a macro on all sane platforms, and a function on the x86oids. 00:40:10 oh, yes. that would be my fault, I suppose. 00:40:13 Or maybe it's the other way around. 00:40:25 Are the x86oids the sane ones here? 00:40:40 well, I did that because making it a macro just generates a bunch of bloat 00:40:47 Seems fair enough. 00:41:03 ~1% of the core size on x86, IIRC. 00:41:19 The problem is that it's inconsistent. 00:41:37 yes. this is a Partial Transition 00:43:07 I should put that on my list of things to do, since I have access to a ppc and sparc machine now, and maybe even a mips one. 00:43:53 That just leaves alpha and hppa, right? 00:44:03 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:44:18 right. the gcc compile farm could take care of both of those...maybe? 00:44:24 *p_l* has a mips32el, Alpha and ARM 00:44:49 Even if it doesn't, I'd rather have two ports on the old scheme than only two ports on the new. 00:44:55 mips32el is considerably easy to get 00:45:11 And if p_l is willing to take the alpha side of it, I'll happily do the arm version. 00:45:39 well, the arm port can Do It Right from the beginning, right? :) 00:46:01 nyef: If I get a stable paying job, I could go after it :) 00:46:31 It did. Then I decided that it would be eaiser to make it go with the ppc version than the x86 version. 00:47:04 Obviously, it's not cast in stone yet. 00:47:07 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@166.129.93.222] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:47:07 I'll need to transport it somewhere I have access (and so I can boot NetBSD or linux over network. I don't feel confident enough to try a VMS port) 00:47:45 Someone else probably has an alpha as well. 00:47:46 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:05 And it's not like it's critical, just annoying. 00:49:27 Well, If I had ~£800 at hand at one point, I'd have an IA64 to try :P 00:49:52 but the chance passed, I guess ;) 00:51:34 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:51:38 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:55:25 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:56:23 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 00:56:27 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@113.77.206.50] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:00:48 -!- Corun [n=Corun@94-194-29-31.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 01:03:23 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:10:24 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 01:12:52 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-24-169.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:35 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:57 froydnj: I have a ridiculous number of SGI boxes if you need one to work on mips. I could put one of them online. 01:16:59 blargh. Hidden logic "bug" in append-segment: it only forces scheduling of one of the segments. 01:17:35 I also have an old alpha, but it's a ram challenged first generation multia. 01:17:38 Fade: thanks for the offer. I suspect a qemu VM will work just as well. 01:17:44 and if GCC's compile farm is too inconvenient, I should be able to get my friendly sysadmin to put the alpha back online. 01:17:52 I have an alpha in my office, too, but I've never tried building sbcl on it. 01:18:21 i've been trying to get my hands on a modern alpha for some time, but the people who have them, aren't letting them go. 01:18:51 Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 01:19:02 Clearly, we need more alpha emulation, then. 01:19:29 i'm all for it. I had hopes for the opencores.org alpha reimplementation project, but it's dead jim. 01:19:57 somebody was posting patches to qemu-devel to make alpha system emulation go 01:20:15 nyef: how's your emulator going? 01:20:36 Fade: I threw it into a public git repo, but beyond that haven't done much with it recently. 01:20:45 *nod* 01:20:52 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:04 http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=users/abridgewater/perry.git;a=summary 01:21:32 well, I have some IBM Power boxes, a bunch of sparc64 hosts, and a lot of mips64 machines in the >10k range; if any of it would be of use, I wouldn't mind making it available. 01:21:50 Hrm... So, who wants to do a mips64 port? 01:22:02 I was considering it :) 01:22:36 it's nice hardware, but the later mips64 procs are kind of weird. 01:22:46 gcc is bjorked. not even netbsd boots on the damn things. 01:22:51 all mine still run irix. 01:23:21 gcc doesn't work for mips64? 01:23:30 surely you jest 01:23:35 there's a problem with the way they handle cache lines. 01:24:26 and this is somehow something that causes problems for gcc? 01:24:27 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B19B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:49 sgi worked around the issue in their compiler, but the workarounds are undocumented. 01:25:01 i'm just trying to find the relevant documentation. 01:25:04 hah. lovely. 01:25:42 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:26:55 http://www.total-knowledge.com/progs/mips/R10K-issue.html' 01:27:05 er, drop the quote at the end. 01:27:49 BTW, the peephole stuff (IR2 and asm) is in fairly good shape for someone who'd like to jump in the sbcl-hacking game. I'll clean my tree up and push it on repo later this week. 01:28:27 ooo, you have peephole bits? 01:29:23 lisppaste: 80511 01:29:32 minion: paste 80511 01:29:33 Paste number 80511: "peephole... only needs to be usable" by pkhuong in None. http://paste.lisp.org/display/80511 01:29:43 the sublinked article to the netbsd mips port list is more detailed 01:29:45 http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-sgimips/2000/06/29/0006.html 01:30:23 Vegan [n=sdfpme@113.77.206.50] has joined #lisp 01:30:27 pkhuong: ha! excellent 01:30:51 and sb-assem now buffers instructions in a queue for "scheduling", so similar code as the IR2 peephole pass should be simple to write. 01:31:54 dl [n=user@c-76-113-113-75.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:01 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:32:45 -!- dl [n=user@c-76-113-113-75.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:32:50 what do the peephole definitions look like? 01:34:22 ugly and unusable right now. The framework expects a skeleton (a sequence of VOP names), and a function that may rewrite the sequence or decline. OTOH, writing a pattern language isn't hard and doesn't require one to rebuild after each change. 01:35:17 -!- drafael [n=tapio@130.216.93.139] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:35:26 annotated with the definition for box/add/unbox. 01:36:06 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-94c6eaf89e267a7b] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:36:35 so the associated function needs to do operand matching? 01:36:43 yes. 01:37:34 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@82.Red-79-150-113.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:37:36 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-24-169.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:37:50 kidd2 [n=kidd@82.Red-79-150-113.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:15 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:01 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:58 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 01:40:19 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-75-222.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:40:20 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 01:42:14 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-219-87.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:37 dulouz [n=ross@dsl254-119-219.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:26 bhyde [n=Adium@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:40 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:57:43 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-19-62.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:49 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 01:58:07 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:59:35 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:45 joha1 [n=johan@p72023-ipbffx02marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:02:26 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-ede270d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 02:03:40 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:03:56 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:07:22 -!- joha1 [n=johan@p72023-ipbffx02marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has left #lisp 02:14:31 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:17:41 -!- Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:18:26 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-ede270d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:22:44 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:28:10 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 02:29:17 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:29 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:38:24 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:20 existentialmonk good nick 02:40:49 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-211-251.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 02:42:44 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:42:47 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-166.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:43:32 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 02:44:28 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634405.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:51:15 -!- dulouz [n=ross@dsl254-119-219.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:54:29 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:15 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:58:22 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:06:13 C-c C-w w gives me "SWANK-BACKEND:CALLS-WHO not implementated". ignoring the typo, what am i missing here? 03:06:23 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-17-207-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:54 ramus`: the necessary support for your implementation in slime or the support in your implementation, period 03:08:21 i'm using SBCL 03:09:36 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:24 probably the latter, although somebody may have not yet got round to implementing the necessary support in slime 03:11:35 holycow [n=new@64.151.208.1] has joined #lisp 03:12:20 *p_l* tries to work through MMIX spec in order to get a better grasp for CL emulator and decides that subroutine linkage must been written on crack 03:12:28 oh, i wanted to use WHO-CALLS, not CALLS-WHO 03:13:06 i don't understand the latter, anyway-- i can't seem to define 'callee' 03:13:56 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:14:09 callee, n.: One who is called. 03:14:09 *hefner* read that as a meaning a CL emulator for MMIX, was briefly confused. 03:14:35 hefner: I'm right now pretty confused by MMIX calling sequence 03:15:09 Knuth must have been on crack 03:16:21 there are important differences between calls that might involve future calls and ones that are certain not to call anything else 03:16:36 nyef: so, the functions that it calls? 03:16:38 at least it doesn't need self-modifying code. 03:16:49 hefner: yeah 03:17:46 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:38 caller-saved stack and callee-saved return address... 03:19:33 -!- bhyde [n=Adium@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:19:48 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-9f1468572b831bb6] has joined #lisp 03:20:00 maybe nuth was involved in designing sbcl's calling conventions... 03:20:37 ... and return opcode has base offset for return address as second argument -_-; 03:21:09 I can see that it might be used for some crazy/evil tricks... 03:21:20 My god, a base offset for a return address? 03:21:27 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-219-87.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:21:43 This really -is- the SBCL calling convention, isn't it? 03:22:13 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:22:26 yeah, POP X, YZ returns to address YZ+rJ, shifting register stack by X... 03:23:55 You just can't make this stuff up, can you? 03:24:36 nyef: just go download mmixware and generate the docs... 03:24:58 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:54 Oh hell no. I've lost enough of my sanity as it is. 03:27:12 (Besides, I have a hardcopy of the book at home.) 03:28:08 anyway, it's still, IMHO, nice architecture 03:28:19 it's just that they really went for "RISC" there :D 03:29:08 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:19 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit ["brb"] 03:31:31 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-209-44.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:22 hmmm... why does arm port log state something about killing all floating-point operands? 03:34:40 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 03:37:13 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@113.77.206.50] has quit ["leaving"] 03:42:18 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:43:55 jlf` [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:44:44 Vegan [n=sdfpme@113.77.206.50] has joined #lisp 03:45:00 -!- MasochisticLibra [n=Masochis@c-24-2-191-235.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:46:34 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@82.Red-79-150-113.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:46:44 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:52 phf [n=phf@c-98-231-211-226.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:38 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:51:38 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:52:10 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:19 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-76-122-25-195.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:20 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-76-122-25-195.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:58:35 p_l: Because they were x86 fp instructions? 03:59:08 nyef: yeah, now I see, I thought in the beginning that you were removing all FP support :P 03:59:17 Oh, that'd be nice. 03:59:38 *p_l* had been fooled to assume that nearly no ARM core on market has FPU 04:00:04 *nyef* wouldn't be surprised if his ARM system doesn't have an FPU. 04:00:20 nyef: what machine? 04:00:37 An NSLU2. 04:00:56 this one probably doesn't have... but I know that Beagle Board has FPU and VPU 04:01:05 You can see why this isn't really a high priority port for me, right? 04:01:38 :) 04:01:38 benny [n=benny@i577A032F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:02:23 well, next academic year I've got a robotic course, and it would be fun to use Lisp :) 04:03:15 I don't know how long the arm port will hold my interest this time, but I'm expecting it to hold for at least a little while. 04:03:34 oh, wee. At the cost of additional conditionalisation, it should be possible tweak mega's trampolines to generate a local function "prologue" with POPW [RBP+8]. 04:04:09 pkhuong: Ooh. And the equivalent for x86? 04:04:22 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-209-44.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:22 I don't see why not, if it works on x86-64. 04:05:13 Extra IR2 passes for that and jump tensioning, then. 04:06:46 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-1-172.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:08:12 *p_l* sometimes gets the weird idea that as part of work on mmix emulator, he should port some form of SBCL to work on the emulator itself... 04:13:48 *p_l* wonders why MMIX spec defines interrupt slot for "power failure" 04:14:13 Why not? ISTR seeing one on the Explorer as well. 04:14:47 to sync fs? 04:15:21 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-71-138-130-18.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:43 It's no good if you can't save your volatile state, but if you've got enough warning through the interrupt to sync your disk or at least save your process state to non-volatile memory... 04:15:49 interrupt number 1 = "power failure", 2 = "memory error", 3 = "nonexistant memory", 4 = reboot, rest seems not defined 04:16:26 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:39 kmcorbett2 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:45 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-209-44.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:16:48 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-167-159.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:05 well, if you have UPS hardwired into CPU, it might work... 04:17:29 *nyef* points out that laptops have exactly that. 04:17:52 can't interrupt come from power supply? 04:18:14 nyef: afaik they don't have it hardwired into cpu, they normally raise an ACPI interrupt 04:18:16 The other possible interpretation of "power failure" as an interrupt vector is that it's the first thing run when the power comes -back-... 04:18:29 nyef: that might work, I guess 04:19:06 p_l: And an x86oid has a power failure interrupt vector? Still, even just some large enough caps could keep the system running for long enough to do -some- damage, even if it's write a crash log to non-volatile storage. 04:20:39 If a power failure interrupt guarantees you at least 400 CPU cycles, and possibly as many as 550 if your luck holds, that could be sufficient for some purposes. Even if those purposes are to set the battery-powered dram refresh timer and save out your register state. 04:20:47 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.141.41] has joined #lisp 04:20:47 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:21:15 nyef: I'm not sure I could save >512 64bit registers in 400 cycles 04:21:56 well, maybe with some special, dma transfer based fxsave... 04:22:08 detonate the bomb? 04:22:22 Perhaps not. Can you at least set the dram refresh timer and then put the CPU to a low-power state to hold its register contents but do no processing? 04:22:37 (or in this case, SAVE/UNSAVE) 04:22:47 nyef: interesting idea :) 04:23:21 MRAM cache would be more interesting way to do it (it doesn't require power except during read/write) 04:24:00 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-75-222.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:24:40 Another option would be to arrange the coding standards so that the register state can be completely reconstructed from RAM at all times. 04:24:49 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:24:58 ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.168.248.118] has joined #lisp 04:25:08 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:10 Essentially running it as a transactional system with retries on power failure/restore. 04:26:11 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-162-42.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:27:09 *p_l* feels he will need to make some additional instructions to MMIX 04:27:34 uhhh... so what's the deal with ISLisp?... 04:29:13 It is an international standard with a devoted community of users and implementors (namely, jcowan) 04:29:25 all i hear about it is someone asking "what's the deal with it?" 04:29:51 -!- beach`` is now known as beach 04:30:01 haha 04:30:04 Good morning. 04:30:04 beach, memo from matimago: A funny quotation for a FFT program: In fact, S. M. Simpson, eventually devised an efficient 24-point Fourier transform, which was a precursor to the Cooley-Tukey fast Fourier transform in 1965. The FFT made all of Simpson's efficient autocorrelation and spectrum programs instantly obsolete, on which he had worked half a lifetime. -- Proc. IEEE, Sept. 1982, p.900 04:30:33 Ouch! 04:30:41 nnngh 04:31:18 ... that had to hurt? 04:31:26 D: 04:33:19 the lesson, children? don't work. 04:33:28 hahaha 04:34:05 I was going to say that the purpose of research should be to publish papers rather than to to save the world. 04:34:16 that's awful. 04:34:28 i'd like to see code with those papers 04:34:36 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:35:46 beach: Erds beat everyone, so it's not worth trying 04:36:32 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:36:47 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:20 stassats: Oh, I am just attempting to publish enough that my teaching service doesn't get increased by the president of the university. 04:39:03 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.74.165] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:39:44 http://christian.jullien.free.fr/linuxutf8.jpg <-- can't help but smile at OpenLisp's message :D 04:40:21 *hefner* wonders if a higher radix is a win for 4-way or higher vectorization 04:41:20 p_l: that's better than kittens of death 04:41:35 haha 04:41:58 stassats: I prefer kittens 04:42:31 with them, I might have a chance of negotiations :D 04:43:12 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:03 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:49:26 Ugh. It's almost midnight. 04:49:33 -!- nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 04:50:57 hefner: for the FFT? The optimal radix is sqrt(N) as I recall, but I don't know with respect to vectorization. 04:53:02 ndt [n=Antoine@123.20.6.190] has joined #lisp 04:53:51 -!- ndt [n=Antoine@123.20.6.190] has quit [Client Quit] 04:53:56 JohnnyL [i=IHadToWr@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:10 ndt_Anthony [n=Antoine@123.20.6.190] has joined #lisp 04:55:19 Hello, i'm the beginner with mcclim. And now i'm having some problems, can i raise my questions here? 04:55:37 with any luck 04:55:38 yes, you can 04:55:48 heh 04:57:17 i configured and can see examples in mcclim packages. But i load some others, it does not display anything 04:57:49 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-207-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:56 ndt_Anthony: loading an application will not be enough. You would have to figure out how to start it. 05:00:08 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:00:18 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:00:34 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:05 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:09 beach: Would you please give me some advise about books of GUI in Lisp? 05:03:27 *hefner* can only think of "Lisp Lore". It's a little dated. 05:03:33 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.168.248.118] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:03:42 ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.168.248.118] has joined #lisp 05:03:47 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:22 ndt_Anthony: I don't know of any such books. Did you read the McCLIM manual? 05:05:05 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 05:08:07 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:09:04 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 05:09:17 beach: ah, thank you very much. This is the one i really need, but i was missing it when i go to McCLIM.Thank you alot! 05:09:33 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:13:32 ndt_Anthony: No problem. 05:14:56 beach: have you done worth with sound/music synth in cl? 05:15:15 -!- rtra [n=user@unaffiliated/rtra] has left #lisp 05:15:47 sykopomp: I use Common Lisp for experiments, but I haven't written any particular application. 05:16:17 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 05:16:50 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.247.71] has joined #lisp 05:19:05 -!- ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 05:19:27 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:20:33 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:02 sykopomp: Last time, I was very pleased because I just fired up the listener, opened a window for plotting, wrote perhaps 100 lines of code allowing me to plot any function and to generate some sound to a file. The rest was just typing expressions to the listener. 05:22:32 sykopomp: have you looked at clm? 05:23:01 phf: I have not. 05:23:18 I don't know anything about music synthesis, but I would like to learn. 05:23:21 can anyone recommend me a IPC/RPC system without bad license (no GPL :P) that I could exploit to connect Lisp and apps in other languages? 05:24:53 -!- ndt_Anthony [n=Antoine@123.20.6.190] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:25:05 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:26:41 drakej [n=Fred@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:09 sykopomp: that's why i started poking at clm also http://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/clm 05:27:20 hefner pasted "my low tech approach to audio from lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80536 05:27:54 I admit, I can't get those live-coding videos out of my head >_> 05:28:00 synthesizing something interesting is left as an exercise to the reader 05:28:06 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 05:28:22 sykopomp: ah, well, clm is non-real time, although there's some legacy rt code there, that i want to figure out eventually 05:28:54 ejs [n=eugen@10-224-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:38 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:20 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:31:04 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-167-159.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:32:02 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:12 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:12 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 05:33:31 it also uses some insane old school tricks. instruments definition (that are written in a subset of common lisp) are code-walked, converted to C, compiled and dynamically loaded using ffi 05:33:36 -!- drakej [n=Fred@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:33:46 awful. 05:34:03 I suspect those tricks are no longer necessary. 05:34:04 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:34:27 They were used essentially because Lisp systems were slow and the GC interrupted things for too long. 05:34:41 and C-slinging philistines can hardly resist the temptation to run off with the generated code and abandon the lisp half. 05:35:22 ugh 05:35:43 well, now we can do better - we can generate code directly to GPU memory and run it there :P 05:36:05 I'm sick of GPUs. 05:36:56 Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:37:10 hefner: at least we still get those instead of some braindamaged, crippled thing like the case with audio support in PCs today 05:37:50 *sykopomp* would settle for "good enough to make some dinky instruments in" 05:37:50 i think there's some value to the code-- i used in a presentation on interesting ways of evolving complexity. i mean the underlying code is still common lisp, but it's hidden behind an insane macro. the optimization was justified at the time 05:37:50 what's wrong with audio support in PCs today, other than abysmal noise floor on your typical motherboard audio? 05:38:44 hefner: AC97 is crud 05:38:45 (probably a poor choice of adjective, given the context..) 05:38:55 and I'm not even an audio enthusiast. 05:40:14 hefner: the fact that basically all you get is a two port (one input, one output), poor quality 24bit DAC sold to you as "soundcard"? 05:40:45 You get at least two outputs and a wide variety of useless inputs. 05:41:00 If you're missing FM synthesis chips or something, I don't sympathize. 05:41:09 I'm missing hw mixer 05:41:09 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:29 bah, we can do those in software 05:41:34 yeah, srsly. 05:41:37 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:41:44 I had hardware mixing once. I was limited to 4 channels. 05:42:02 *p_l* never managed to run out of channels 05:42:04 (this was in the brave days of Windows 3.1) 05:42:17 beach: that's what they said when they invented Winmodems as well 05:43:07 granted, after using ALSA for a while, I rather wish the software wasn't doing the mixing. 05:43:07 also abysmal quality of said chips. And yes, I'd like to have hw MIDI as well :-D 05:43:31 people started recommending USB soundcards to me 05:43:42 at least they have less noise 05:44:03 awful. 05:44:29 *p_l* wonders if making software based on OSF DCE is evil enough 05:46:12 I wonder how many idiots on the internet you could get excited if you put a credible presentation forward of an operating system that runs on a GPU. 05:46:34 millions 05:46:45 hefner: If I made it look like mac-only product, I'd get fanatical followers 05:48:36 anyway, at home we have one machine with modern GPU, with possible route of expansion being a full-blown stream processing card. But at least we had a reason for that :D 05:48:55 anybody had any problems with the lates clbuild version of SBCL (asdf not compiling correctly) and hunchentoot (cant get the server started) ...? 05:52:42 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 05:56:37 kidd2 [n=kidd@82.Red-79-150-113.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:53 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.24.169] has joined #lisp 06:07:14 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:10:38 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.234.94] has joined #lisp 06:14:18 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181129202.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:18:12 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 06:21:16 ASau [n=user@host189-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:23:06 -!- phf [n=phf@c-98-231-211-226.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 06:25:46 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:34:28 dwave [n=ask@084202072223.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 06:35:31 gemelen 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Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:26:53 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:34 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 09:27:49 anyone good with hardware here 09:27:59 clusters particularly 09:32:41 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 09:35:33 ulel: what kind of clusters (not that I'm good, but I might have heard something) 09:40:18 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-130-66.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 09:41:57 -!- Axioplase_ [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 09:42:39 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.24.169] has quit [] 09:42:55 HPC 09:43:37 special hardware or COTS? 09:44:01 trying to build a 40 core machine 09:44:08 just needed advice on performance gain 09:44:12 with xserves or 09:44:19 dual and quad 09:45:23 it all breaks down to old "measure, then optimize". What is the predicted workload? (and for multiple sockets in one machine and x86 I recommend i7 or Opterons) 09:46:05 sweet you're the man 09:46:07 basically 09:46:15 i was thinking 8 core xserves 09:47:00 or 20 quad cores or 5 dual core 09:47:07 is there a major difference in quad vs dual 09:47:08 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-64-40.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:47:18 depends on exact type of cpu and your workload 09:47:24 besides multiprocessing time which im sure nobody minds the 100th of a second diff 09:48:52 Core 2 based systems have cache problems as well as low scalability wrt with more than two sockets (they are friggin' old SMP), i7 and Opterons do NUMA and have separate memory controllers per socket 09:48:52 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-64-40.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 09:49:31 and Amdahl's law likes to kick ass when you don't measure first :/ 09:49:33 but 09:49:41 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 09:49:42 if you look at the processing power over the dual and the quad, it's virtually the same no? 09:50:12 ulel: Amdahl's Law. CPU speed/number is not the only factor when calculating performance of the system 09:50:22 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 09:50:35 you have to take into account memory and I/O, especially interconnect between clusters 09:50:42 *cluster nodes 09:51:49 while HPC clusters might have lower requirements on I/O, they still need the data to computer on 09:51:52 *compute 09:52:35 also, if you're building a cluster, why not take some blades? 09:52:46 they might cost you less in long term than full-blown servers 09:52:50 p_l: indeed. However, if you have a program that use a language implemented with a VM, having a lot of CPU cycles available (with a lot of registers), let you execute a lot of instructions without touching the memory, so you can actually be as fast as a C program that would spend its time waiting for it. 09:52:52 ;-) 09:52:58 yeah i was thinking of a blade server 09:54:21 matimago: sure, but Core2 can easily clog their memory and their cache is fabulous :P 09:55:01 (effect of cheating on multicore, I guess) 09:55:42 matimago: plus, we still don't know what kind of workload it is. Is it memory-bound? CPU-bound? IO-bound? IPC? Phase-of-the-moon-bound? 09:57:35 paw [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:57:44 p_l: thanks 09:57:48 so it would depend on a few factors 09:58:03 otherwise we cant determine if quad or the dual are the same in processing time 09:58:30 ulel: quad or dual is trivial compared to rest of the system :) 09:58:35 if the core 2 is fast enough (depending on its load) as well has enough RAM for cache, the processors (granted their buses may be slowed a little bit) stuff still executes just as fast. 09:58:38 right? 09:59:01 yeah. But you need to look at the whole system, especially if you're building a cluster 10:00:13 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 10:00:28 you're right, bus speeds, ram speeds, etc. 10:00:31 im not discounting that 10:00:46 other hardware speeds (such as disc, etc) 10:00:48 Also cluster interconnect, I/O 10:01:22 no doubt all come into play when dealing with a "production" system. 10:02:34 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:02:51 the clusters I had contact with (and they weren't even HPC) had usually multiple (at least two per node) gigabit links over two switches in vlan konfiguration + similarily redundant multipath FC links 10:03:04 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:39 p_l: 10:05:58 but im wondering there is no real diff in them when you look at the cores individually (which most OSs do) 10:05:59 right? 10:07:21 ulel: Well, if the CPUs have satisfactory performance, then you just need to look at the "clustering" part of the bussiness :) 10:07:47 no no 10:08:00 though if you are using i7 or AMD, no, systems don't see them individually. at least not ones that hope to get good performance 10:08:02 i mean quad vs dual, there is no difference in them when you look at it from an OS point of view 10:08:08 cause an OS sees it individually 10:09:04 thomas_ [n=thomas@47-109.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:09:26 depends. In SMP? no there's no difference, as the "Symmetric" part implies. In NUMA? Hell yeah 10:10:26 systems see the processor as one unit and feed it instructions 10:10:44 it's up to the "multi-core whatever" to selectively delegate those instructions 10:11:05 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 10:11:35 nope 10:12:02 if you have a four-core system, you get four cpus and OS has to choose how to feed them 10:12:31 -!- paw [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:13:36 delqna [n=delqna@p54A36719.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:48 it's up to those and and or, and xor gates to figure out to which processor the instruction is sent to 10:14:09 no 10:14:15 each core is a separate cpu 10:14:30 with its own state etc. 10:14:33 the CPU has to choose how to delegate those commands. 10:14:47 nope 10:15:28 cpu gets force fed it's pipelines and spits results back (and when it fails at predicting a branch it barfs and has to fill the pipeline again) 10:15:38 i'm not disputing each core is its own processor. 10:15:46 yo 10:15:53 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483CA4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:57 what i'm disputing is the delegation of the procedures. 10:15:57 yeah, but its OS' job to schedule them 10:16:04 it's OS' jobs 10:16:06 *job 10:16:25 ok right 10:16:58 that's why it sometimes needs tuning :) 10:18:18 ok 10:18:26 so then its pretty much what i said it all boils down the OS 10:18:27 :D 10:18:55 also, for a cluster, you'll want a cluster scheduler for the whole thing (and a whole bunch of other tools, unless it's a quite simple cluster) 10:19:09 yeah 10:19:52 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:21:14 cracki [n=cracki@43-176.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:22:02 *p_l* notes "Phase-of-the-Moon-bound" for future usage 10:22:32 you never know when you might need a BOFHly coverup 10:22:33 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit ["Be back later"] 10:22:46 heh 10:23:59 ignas [n=ignas@78.59.166.221] has joined #lisp 10:24:58 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 10:29:58 hmmm... anyone has any experience with connecting CL to AMQP brokers? 10:30:38 I suppose the author of cl-amqp might 10:31:04 but I don't know if there has been much authoring on it yet 10:33:11 damn. There's cl-rabbit, but it uses java lib 10:33:28 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.141.231.73] has joined #lisp 10:33:38 and I'm still looking for sensible remote IPC 10:33:47 (and IPC, as well) 10:35:57 beanstalkd speaks a nice and easy-to-implement protocol. might be simpler than amqp (-: 10:36:19 schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a54485bdd845e71e] has joined #lisp 10:36:39 Oh, I heard of that one 10:36:59 (avoid the memcache-based ones (-:) 10:37:33 I'm looking forward to something I could use as bridge between apps (I gave up and will code a D-Bus bridge as well) 10:37:38 qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 10:38:08 ZeroMQ has C-based client library which could be wrapped easily, I guess 10:39:29 AMQP would have additional benefits of being "Enterprise Compatible" :D 10:39:41 I'm sure (: 10:40:31 -!- Athrufee [n=narayan@crj95-3-82-237-151-159.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quit"] 10:41:47 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.168.248.118] has quit ["night"] 10:41:54 hmm... ~2 page manual for the C API... now that's something nice :D 10:45:42 buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-27-124.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:51:52 cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 10:56:53 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 11:03:14 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-55-73.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:27 -!- Zenton [n=user@212.166.192.129] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:05:11 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs181129202.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:06:20 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181129202.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:07:01 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-128-209.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:09:37 erfm 11:09:43 in a fictional db, it doesn't matter, you tell it 11:09:51 gotta love crappy APIs 11:11:54 -!- buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-27-124.netcologne.de] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:11:54 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.141.231.73] has quit 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[n=thomas@47-109.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:26:10 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 11:26:10 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 11:27:49 -!- frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:27:58 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:35:56 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a66108@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-381727d00987b872] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 11:36:11 jao [n=jao@37.Red-79-155-154.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:58 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:48 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:39:58 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 11:40:35 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.141.231.73] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:43:21 crappy API... sounds like TagLib to me... 11:46:33 manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 11:47:24 trying Adium beta with twitter support 11:48:21 manuel__ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 11:48:21 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:48:25 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:48:28 @martingeddes do we think twitter should offer to let me charge you to follow? 11:48:58 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 11:50:06 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-9f1468572b831bb6] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:50:29 well, there's one obvious reason why adium + twitter's a bad idea 11:57:31 -!- buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-27-124.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:04:46 -!- dys` is now known as dys 12:09:33 eslg [n=user@mail.star-force.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:58 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Read error: 54 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dv_ [n=dv@85-127-115-93.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 12:47:16 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 12:51:37 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:15 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 12:57:12 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 12:57:22 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:01:25 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-27-124.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:01:40 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:05:22 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-202-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:07:38 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-202-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:08:58 what's the best book on lisp you've ever read? 13:09:33 -!- jao [n=jao@37.Red-79-155-154.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:10:47 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:12:40 paip or pcl 13:12:59 on common lisp, that is. they are different enough that it's hard to compare 13:13:21 if scheme counts, scip is the number one without a doubt 13:15:03 c|mell [n=cmell@p32239-ipngn601marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:15:54 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 13:17:57 -!- jenkins_ [n=jenkins@ixa148.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [] 13:18:33 Drunkenmonkey [i=55c89673@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d22436f67910467c] has joined #lisp 13:18:48 (LMAO (LISP (IDIOTS))) 13:18:51 hahaha 13:18:55 -!- Drunkenmonkey [i=55c89673@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d22436f67910467c] has left #lisp 13:19:00 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 13:20:01 nice 13:20:04 *desu* wonders why DrunkenMonkey is not banned yet... 13:20:12 that guy does that quite a few times 13:20:21 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-128-209.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:20:33 at least he properly balanced his parens 13:21:48 >.> 13:21:55 jao [n=jao@170.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:57 the reason he's not banned is because the channel ban list is full 13:22:18 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago 13:22:24 wow... the banlist is pretty long... 13:22:32 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-207-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:34 is the topic lock still needed? 13:22:39 probably not 13:22:44 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xof 13:22:46 -!- Xof has set mode -t 13:22:56 -!- Xof has set mode -o Xof 13:23:16 -!- Zhivago has set mode -b %Hodapp!*@* 13:23:39 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2F66C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:23:48 -!- Zhivago has set mode +b %Drunkenmonkey!*@* 13:23:55 -!- Zhivago has set mode -o Zhivago 13:24:02 The lesser of two evils, I guess. 13:24:15 lol 13:25:05 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:25:11 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 13:25:28 -!- luis changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: CFFI 0.10.4, SBCL 1.0.28, Hunchentoot & Drakma 1.0.0, usocket 0.4.1, ABCL 0.14, cl-net-snmp 5.19, yason-0.1, trivial-features 0.4, series 2.2.10, CMUCL 19f. 13:27:54 -!- cracki [n=cracki@43-176.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 13:28:59 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 13:31:10 Xof: isn't there an option to use an "allow" list instead of a "deny" list (ban list)? 13:31:14 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.166.58] has quit ["Log this!"] 13:31:26 Zenton [n=user@77.210.132.71] has joined #lisp 13:31:37 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.166.58] has joined #lisp 13:35:38 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:35:41 haha 13:35:49 matimago: that would be a very exclusive club (: 13:36:00 *antifuchs* believes in giving people a chance first 13:36:21 matimago: some freenode operators said they'd look into giving us a bigger banlist 13:36:26 don't know what became of this 13:36:31 m4thias [n=user@75.84-48-87.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:43 nikodemus`: thank you ;) 13:37:08 is unbanning old bans not an option? 13:37:38 stassats: I don't think anybody remembers those, and there are several recurring trolls 13:38:02 I think we could use +q 13:38:03 I remember many of them, and some of the bans correspond to gavino 13:38:52 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:40:19 nikodemus`: I've hard copies all of them except paip. Could you briefly tell me what's good about it? 13:40:50 bombshelter13_ [n=greg@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:56 Modius [n=Modius@99.179.99.203] has joined #lisp 13:43:17 I think #openbsd uses +r to cut down on trolls, but some people may prefer not registering 13:44:51 While this is happening in lispworks, the concepts are general-purpose - I want to understand what is going on. It appears as though garbage collector/finalization code is able to ignore threading/locks - is this a typical behavior? 13:45:57 you'll have to be a bit more precise than that 13:46:52 Okay - regular code (with-lock-held (lock) ....) Finalizer code (with-lock-held (lock) ....) The finalizer seems to be running inside of the regular code's locked region 13:47:23 Xof: how do you like the latest hash-table patch? 13:47:39 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:47:55 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 13:48:37 leo2007: aside from some pre-ansisms, it shows good idiomatic usage of the language. there are several interesting non-trivial things there otherwise as well 13:48:58 why is that a bad thing? the lock is already held, right? 13:49:08 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 13:49:10 -!- aunwork_ [n=aunwork@mail.ionicsoft.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:49:17 froydnj: The lock doesn't seem to be stopping both regions of code from running at the sasme time 13:49:30 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:49:38 froydnj: Just occurred to me - maybe the finalizer is running on the same thread making it moot 13:49:41 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:51:29 Modius: yes, that's probably what's happening 13:51:54 Modius: i suspect your observations are faulty. how do you figure they are running at the same time and are in different threads? 13:53:57 nikodemus: They probably *are* on the same thread yes. 13:55:45 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:55:58 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 13:56:41 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:58:02 nikodemus`: thank you. 13:58:13 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:58:22 -!- Zenton [n=user@77.210.132.71] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:59:00 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:55 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:02:39 rtra [n=user@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 14:02:41 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087BDEC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:57 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:03 jmbr [n=jmbr@19.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:06:31 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-56-187.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:29 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.247.71] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:11:26 aunwork_ [n=aunwork@mail.ionicsoft.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:04 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:12 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:14:44 -!- ulel [n=barren@unaffiliated/dconway] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:15:01 dl [n=user@dhcp39.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 14:16:22 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-231.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 14:17:35 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-179.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 14:19:04 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:22 nikodemus`: haven't looked at the patch. Your description seems sane 14:30:39 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.234.94] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:31:41 nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:49 G'morning all. 14:31:53 hi nyef 14:33:28 good morning nyef 14:38:24 -!- CrazyEddy [n=caddiced@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:38:25 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-231.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:39:55 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@19.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:40:12 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 14:42:02 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as X-Scale 14:45:16 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:46:11 psheldr [n=user@217.13.173.75] has joined #lisp 14:47:24 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:50:35 yCrazyEdd [n=euchlori@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 14:51:51 does anyone have a working example of sending a udp packet with lisp (any socket library will do) 14:52:18 Gertm: IIRC, iolib has one or two in its examples or tests. 14:52:41 ah, I'll check that out, thanks 14:53:12 Gertm: also it includes a DNS client, which uses UDP. 14:53:38 -!- pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:53:57 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.24.169] has joined #lisp 14:53:57 hi luis 14:54:47 hello fe[nl]ix 14:57:06 any comments on make-static-vector & co. ? 14:57:31 Yeah. It's the wrong thing to use for callbacks. 14:57:32 Doesn't usocket have UDP support in the SVN? 14:57:38 -!- psheldr [n=user@217.13.173.75] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:58:16 buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-27-124.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:58:35 (That's probably not the sort of comment you're looking for, but it's still true.) 14:59:19 fe[nl]ix: at best stick it in a contrib. 14:59:55 fe[nl]ix: well, if it's not possible to implement GC-able static vectors right now, I'd like to at least open that possibility API-wise. 15:00:47 well, actually... It would be possible to implement GC-able static vectors, but you'd waste a lot of space on small vectors. 15:01:01 (gencgc-only, ugly hack) 15:01:06 how small ? 15:01:20 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:01:20 -!- buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-27-124.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:01:26 < 4 pages, IIRC. 15:01:49 why 4 pages ? 15:02:06 You're talking about allocating a large-object page for them? 15:02:11 because that's the magic size for "large" unboxed objects, which aren't moved by the GC. 15:02:19 Heh. 15:02:38 luis: I could add a gcable-static-vector-p. it would be (constantly t) on Allegro and LW 15:03:41 well, it'd be nice to have consistent semantics though. 15:04:27 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@156-95.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["e-nuff"] 15:04:43 What I mean is, make it non-collectable for every backend, and perhaps support GC-able vectors in some backends. 15:05:48 Also, it'd be interesting to see if there's any overlap between this API and the shareable byte vectors one. 15:05:49 -!- Corun [n=Corun@94-194-29-31.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:06:06 perhaps unify them, if at all possible. 15:06:11 UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:32 add a keyarg for GC-ability ? 15:06:33 Corun [n=Corun@94-194-29-31.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:06:53 -!- Corun [n=Corun@94-194-29-31.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:06:58 something like that, yes. 15:08:31 did anything change in the way sbcl handles &environment variables recently? I am having problems with the lex-env not being correct inside of iterate forms 15:08:56 -!- yCrazyEdd [n=euchlori@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:09:22 luis: LW only has GC-able static vectors. what should :gcable t do there ? 15:09:38 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has joined #lisp 15:09:47 What should :gcable nil do there? 15:10:00 oh, right 15:10:01 same thing as :adjustable nil on make-array. 15:10:50 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 15:11:05 pkhuong: not the same thing. if LW doesn't have non-gcable static vectors, what should happen when the user asks for one ? 15:11:07 raise an error ? 15:11:12 you could store a pointer to them in a hash table to stop the gc 15:11:20 or a list maybe 15:12:19 omg, no. synchronization bugs would certainly ensue 15:13:20 fe[nl]ix: how? Worst case you lock, CAS if you can. 15:15:23 it strikes me as a bad idea to use locking for such a simple thing 15:15:35 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-179.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:15:37 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.13.110] has joined #lisp 15:15:37 maybe I should just use finalizers on sbcl too 15:15:41 that's why i suggested a hashtable as they are safe on lispworks 15:15:47 fe[nl]ix: I think an error would be appropriate, yes. 15:15:49 fe[nl]ix: finalizers on what? 15:16:10 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:16:12 pkhuong: fe[nl]ix's implementation allocates the vectors using malloc(). 15:16:28 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:16:32 luis: right. On what would the finalizers finalize? 15:17:04 pkhuong: hmm, the lisp vector, I think. 15:17:14 pkhuong: on what sb-kernel:%make-lisp-obj returns 15:17:21 the sbcl implementation of static vectors is really horrible and belongs in sbcl itself, imo 15:17:22 fe[nl]ix: that'll never die. 15:17:47 because gencgc never touches foreign memory at all ? 15:18:01 hmm, good point. 15:18:17 pkhuong, check it out http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/cffi-devel/2009-May/003103.html 15:18:23 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-179.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 15:18:25 it needs to go into sbcl not cffi 15:18:42 indeed. finalizers and weak pointers aren't implemented by scanning the heap for strong references, but more as a side-effect of garbage collection. If an object is never a candidate for garbage collection, it'll never be dead. 15:18:45 would a displaced array work? 15:18:56 -!- Vegan is now known as fvw 15:19:03 that would be wicked 15:19:09 luis: wow, yuck. 15:19:14 hahaha 15:19:17 heh. What? 15:19:31 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:19:39 -!- bhyde [n=Adium@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 15:19:49 luis: also, not simple. 15:19:58 c|mell: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/377553 15:21:03 luis: IMO this is suppose to replace shareable byte vectors 15:21:35 -!- octoberdan [n=dgreen@64.206.6.254] has left #lisp 15:21:46 pinning works for plenty of use cases though, doesn't it? 15:22:17 It's so incomplete I'd rather leave it as folklore or at best a contrib. 15:22:27 jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 15:22:52 luis: yes, when you only deal with a number of arrays known at compile time 15:23:03 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:23:40 The address points 1 byte too low in static-vector-pointer (with mirror cruftiness in free-static-vector). 15:24:05 my initial thought was that the best way to deal with implementation differences would be to pretend that static vectors are not gc-able everywhere and require them to be explicitly free'd 15:25:19 fe[nl]ix: but then some people might leave refs to the static vectors only in foreign space and we get dangling pointers into the lisp heap. 15:26:12 ah, because these vectors won't be scanned by the GC, right? 15:26:56 -!- addled [n=alawson@89.Red-83-36-62.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:27:18 pkhuong: nothing we can do about that. it can happen when using regular arrays + pinning too 15:27:32 fe[nl]ix: no it can't. If you're pinning, you have a ref. 15:28:27 CrazyEddy [n=pleuroto@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 15:28:33 and once you leave the scope of the pinning, you shouldn't use pointers to the pinned object. This is a different issue, unless you only want to allow people to use static vectors through with-static-vector. 15:28:47 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@193.174.12.194] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:28:51 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p32239-ipngn601marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:29:01 c|mell [n=cmell@p32239-ipngn601marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:29:03 nope 15:29:15 I want static vectors with indefinite extent 15:29:19 as stream buffers 15:29:54 most lisps support them, why shouldn't sbcl? 15:29:59 Just do what fd-streams does, mmap() a spot of memory and use SAP functions? 15:30:13 c|mell: will you write the code? 15:30:28 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:41 haha i am halfway through adding the line numbers to debug output 15:30:46 right. So here's the problem scenario with pretending GCable vectors are non-GCable: 1. make-static-vector 2. pass that somewhere to C-land 3. lose all references lisp-side. 4. GC 5. get the ref back from C. 15:30:48 nyef: I don't want to use SAP functions 15:31:36 pkhuong: hmm, does the GC scavenge these malloc()ed static vectors? 15:32:11 luis: no. I'm talking about the LW case here. You can't just pretend LW's static vectors function like fe[nl]ix has on SBCL. 15:32:19 pkhuong: can you really do that? won't GC be supressed while in C? 15:32:25 milanj [n=milan@212.200.223.35] has joined #lisp 15:32:26 pkhuong: that's a bug in the CL code. the user would need to fix it 15:32:36 I honestly don't care about that case 15:32:41 fe[nl]ix: that's not a bug with non-GC-able vectors! 15:33:45 froydnj: the point of the hack is to have pointers that can be stored in C land because the vectors won't move. Step 2) could e.g. be store the pointer on the C heap and return. 15:34:07 Oh, nevermind. I was missing the detail that these vectors won't have pointers in them. 15:34:27 or at least you should make it very clear that there should always be lisp references to live non-GC-able vectors. 15:35:29 pkhuong: with non-gc-able vectors it would be a bug: a memory leak 15:35:42 pkhuong: of course 15:35:44 fe[nl]ix: no. You get the pointer back from C, work on it, free. 15:35:49 sorry, I thought it was implicit 15:36:57 allegro has a thing with a displaced array in normal gc space pointing to the non-moving array in static allocation space 15:36:59 in that case, what would the difference be between :gcable NIL and :gcable T be? 15:37:59 I don't know, that's why I'd rather avoid it 15:38:20 -!- schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a54485bdd845e71e] has left #lisp 15:40:02 How about keeping a reference to the static vector in a global hashtable? 15:40:17 -!- konr [n=konrad@143.106.73.150] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:40:18 Yet an other yucky solution. :-) 15:40:37 addled [n=alawson@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:48 fe[nl]ix annotated #79633 "now with a compiler macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79633#8 15:41:56 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.206.50] has quit ["leaving"] 15:42:29 well, NIL is quite specialised an element type actually ;) 15:42:47 konr [n=konrad@143.106.73.150] has joined #lisp 15:44:28 well, trying to create one yields: "An attempt to access an array of element-type NIL was made. Congratulations!" 15:44:37 -!- addled [n=alawson@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:45:09 I can only store it, never access it 15:45:51 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:57 %allocation-size should round the size up to 2 words (I don't know if anything depends on that right now, but I have some code that does). We also pad character and base-char vectors with an extra Null element. 15:45:59 Right. The specialized array type is required to exist (it's a string, btw), but since NIL is the bottom type you can't actually create any values that can go in the array. 15:46:19 nyef: I find that immensely funny 15:46:37 nyef: well, it's undefined. Getting something out of the array, otoh, would wreck the compiler's idea of the type lattice. 15:47:03 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit ["Be back later"] 15:47:59 I'm glad someone finds it funny 15:49:20 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:49:54 pkhuong: the current code rounds the size up to sb-vm:n-word-bits. why two words ? 15:50:17 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:31 fe[nl]ix: the allocator works on chunks of two words (that way we have 3/4 bits of lowtag on 32/64 bit platforms). 15:50:53 ... it's also quite convenient for SSE operations on x86-64. 15:51:16 ok 15:51:56 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:52:29 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:52:47 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.166.58] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 15:53:01 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:53:59 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.166.58] has joined #lisp 15:58:57 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:59:34 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-523fb54f240278fe] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:00:26 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:00:38 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:42 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-71-138-130-18.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:01:47 dwave [n=ask@062249178014.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 16:01:49 -!- dialtone_ is now known as dialtone 16:09:00 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:12 -!- rtra [n=user@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:09:16 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6F2CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:25 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6F2CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:10:13 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:11:39 rtra [n=user@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 16:13:13 i'm trying to do something like (if (func1 x) ((func2 y) (func3 z)) (func4 a)), but i get an "illegal function call" error on ((func2 y) (func3 z))... what's the correct way of doing what i'm trying to do? 16:13:15 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.24.169] has quit [] 16:14:05 cond or progn 16:14:20 thanks 16:14:50 -!- cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:15:30 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:16:12 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:16:22 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 16:17:00 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:17:19 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:20:12 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:20:43 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 16:24:05 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-27-124.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:24:35 -!- maxote [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has left #lisp 16:24:41 maxote [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 16:24:43 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-123-188.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:24:59 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 16:25:54 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-209-44.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:09 rjack [n=rjack@filippo.cs.unibo.it] has joined #lisp 16:26:38 -!- rjack [n=rjack@filippo.cs.unibo.it] has quit [Client Quit] 16:30:25 konr1 [n=konrad@143.106.73.150] has joined #lisp 16:31:35 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:32:18 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:34:02 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-336433668211a5cd] has joined #lisp 16:37:19 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-119-58.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:39:39 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:40:17 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:28 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:41:32 Corun [n=Corun@94-194-29-31.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:41:56 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:42:12 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:50 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-209-44.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:45:58 -!- konr [n=konrad@143.106.73.150] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:49:24 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:49:41 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@dsl092-045-116.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:17 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 16:56:24 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host182.190-137-196.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:57:12 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:57:32 Is there a way to merge two lexenvs? (if I wanted to add bindings to an existing lexenv, before expanding a macro)? 16:57:48 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:58:19 Adding bindings is easy. Just use LET, LABELS, MACROLET, or SYMBOL-MACROLET depending on the bindings you want to add. 16:59:09 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:59:36 -!- Corun is now known as Corun|away 16:59:49 around the macroexpand call? The problem I am having is that iterate expands macros in its bodies, but does so outside of the environment that is sets up. So macros that depend on the environment miss any of iterates local variable bindings. I was hoping to fix that. 17:01:25 Umm... Not sure. 17:01:50 You don't see variable bindings at macroexpand time in any case, do you? 17:01:57 at least not their values 17:03:09 I dont need their values, just that they are in the &environment variable. Essentially multiple code walkers are stomping each other (arnesi and iterate) 17:03:40 that is inevitable 17:03:41 well-known problem with codewalkers. The solution is not to. 17:03:59 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 17:04:24 -!- CrazyEddy [n=pleuroto@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:04:25 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 17:04:41 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 17:05:00 ugh... yeah I figured as much, but was hoping to mitigate it by getting the iterate established locals into the environment it uses when macro expanding its body forms 17:05:16 Tordek__ [n=tordek@host29.190-138-170.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:07:11 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs181129202.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:08:28 -!- Corun|away is now known as Corun 17:08:33 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host182.190-137-196.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:09:24 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:40 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:11:30 CrazyEddy [n=pediculo@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 17:11:47 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:01 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-61bd3add7fa7567b] has joined #lisp 17:13:00 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host151.190-138-169.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:13:01 -!- BrianRice-mb is now known as BrianRice 17:13:02 -!- ASau [n=user@host189-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["Off"] 17:14:09 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78.59.166.221] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:14:11 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:19:45 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181129202.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:20:12 Drunkemonkey [i=55c89673@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f2a2db1264504284] has joined #lisp 17:20:23 -!- Drunkemonkey [i=55c89673@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f2a2db1264504284] has left #lisp 17:20:25 frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:25:51 -!- frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:26:33 can someone please point me to a good cl-selenium tutorial? 17:26:57 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 17:27:27 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:41 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:47 or would http://seleniumhq.org/documentation/ be enough? 17:30:10 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:33:57 ejs [n=eugen@38-165-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:10 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:41 -!- klausi [n=klausi@port-92-193-28-3.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:38:09 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 17:38:46 found via google: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-selenium/tutorial.html 17:39:51 Is this a normal behavior --- I got a no-applicable-method error when running SBCL w/ SLIME, but in the debugger in the args I see only the generic function --- the argument on which it was called is not available. And I don't see an error object to winkle it out of. 17:39:59 Is this a bad optimization setting or normal? 17:41:21 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-73-151.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:43:16 BrianRice: i tried that. that is not even the begining. it's just 2 paras :( 17:43:21 thanks anyways 17:43:37 i guess reading the actual selenium documentation will help. me doing that only now 17:44:04 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:44:18 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 17:44:37 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-207-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:44:42 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:51 rpg: have you tried to change optimization settings? 17:46:41 stassats: I didn't actually set the optimization settings. Do they default to low debug? Or, I suppose, they could have leaked out of some system I loaded if it declaims them... 17:47:02 stassats: The question was really "should i experiment with optimization settings, or am I just stuck with this no matter what?" 17:47:17 they default to 1, try to set it to 2 17:47:26 debug, that is 17:47:51 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.13.110] has left #lisp 17:48:42 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:48:54 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.166.58] has quit ["Log this!"] 17:48:58 rpg: (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 2) then recompile 17:49:04 stassats: Is there a way to get the current settings out of SBCL? I am trying to avoid a brute force search over, what's the space? 3^4 settings... 17:49:25 fe[nl]ix: Why not (declaim (optimize (debug 2)))? 17:49:26 There's a describe-compiler-policy of some sort. 17:49:38 in sb-ext 17:49:44 nyef: Thanks. I was lisp-apropos-ing, but I never would have gotten to "policy"... 17:50:09 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-130-66.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:50:41 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-130-242.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:51:37 Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.101.17] has joined #lisp 17:51:37 Thank you very much! 17:56:34 Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-14-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:59 konr [n=konrad@143.106.73.150] has joined #lisp 17:57:22 -!- ejs [n=eugen@38-165-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:00:54 ejs [n=eugen@38-165-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:02 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 18:02:30 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:11 -!- dl [n=user@dhcp39.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:06:55 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:07:34 -!- Modius [n=Modius@99.179.99.203] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:07:50 Modius [n=Modius@99.179.99.100] has joined #lisp 18:08:21 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.101.17] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:10:01 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:13:27 -!- konr1 [n=konrad@143.106.73.150] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:14:59 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-14-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:16:10 peddie [n=matthew@PEDDIE.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 18:21:29 *nikodemus* updates the http://sb-studio.net/ site 18:21:35 man that was out of date 18:22:23 konr1 [n=konrad@143.106.73.150] has joined #lisp 18:22:28 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 18:22:57 nikodemus: do you get much requests? 18:23:18 could use more :) 18:23:42 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-250-121.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:24:05 actually, it's been very fallow lately -- unless things pick up i going to have to figure out something new 18:24:13 "was be informally presented"? 18:25:03 as in, wasn't formally part of ECOOP -- which is a prestigous organization 18:25:14 "was be"? 18:25:18 oh 18:25:48 thanks 18:25:52 No problem. 18:26:07 (Yay, more stuff to read!) 18:26:08 how does that page scan to you overall? 18:26:49 interesting, how profitable Clozure is 18:27:13 ericklc [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 18:27:13 ? 18:27:58 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:28:10 Something about it says "too many adjectives". 18:28:59 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E43C49.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:30 I would probably lose "extensive" from the first paragraph and "sincerely" from the third... 18:30:23 And the three plans listed use rather different verbiage, which takes more effort to figure out. 18:32:04 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:33:56 better? 18:36:12 Looks better to me. 18:36:31 Spyderco2 [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 18:36:42 nikodemus: If you're allowed to perhaps cite a few of the cases where you were hired. 18:36:48 I'm a little unsure about the word "upstream" in the first paragraph, but not unsure enough to say "kill it". 18:37:06 And the tag line on your publications page is different from the tag line on the main page. 18:38:14 -!- konr [n=konrad@143.106.73.150] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:38:53 nikodemus: And hyperdoc is working out very well. I don't know when I'll have the possibility to make the code public, though. 18:39:24 fixed, thanks 18:39:49 citations are hard -- i have a couple, but i need to figure out how to present them 18:40:58 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-162-42.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:27 cmo-0 [n=user@86.99.142.187] has joined #lisp 18:41:37 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:43:37 do the plans strike you as reasonable? 18:43:55 i always have a hard time telling 18:44:33 *nyef* has no idea. 18:47:03 nikodemus: your last entry in slime's ChangeLog was garbled. Would you mind correcting it? 18:47:04 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:47:33 sure, but right now i'm off to late dinner 18:47:40 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181129202.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:49:36 I'm trying cmucl-19f, and noticed that the command line options mentioned in the user manual (like -edit, -slave) are not recognized. the version I'm using is from cons.org. any hints? 18:50:12 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:50:58 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:01 -!- Spyderco2 [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Client Quit] 18:52:21 Spyderco2 [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 18:52:57 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:54:59 -!- Spyderco2 [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Client Quit] 18:55:12 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 18:55:47 -!- dwave [n=ask@062249178014.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:57:21 tcr: inside the body of a define-compiler-macro, I get "ARGLIST (error): The function NIL is undefined." 18:58:55 semyon421 [n=semyon@217.67.122.44] has joined #lisp 18:59:04 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Client Quit] 19:00:49 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 19:05:30 fe[nl]ix: compiler macro for undefined function? 19:05:58 good point 19:06:10 I hadn't loaded that code yet 19:06:32 but anyway, that's a slime bug 19:07:20 -!- jao [n=jao@170.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:08:07 made me find a funny fontification bug 19:12:04 -!- konr1 [n=konrad@143.106.73.150] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:12:17 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 19:12:31 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:38 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 19:14:06 -!- thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:15:50 jao [n=jao@207.Red-79-155-247.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:22 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 19:17:25 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:17:48 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:18:40 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:19:01 tcr: in what sense funny ? 19:20:29 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@static-70-108-241-27.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:35 Inserted #-(and) in mid of a function, and the whole function got suppressed 19:23:42 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 19:24:07 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 19:25:01 tcr: I think I've found another one 19:25:49 in http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-net-snmp/release/usocket-udp_latest.tar.gz, in usocket-udp-2.4/usocket-server.lisp a function is suppressed for no apparent reason 19:26:19 Try with head. I fixed both issues 19:27:16 -!- jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:27:34 jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has joined #lisp 19:28:20 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:56 konr [n=konrad@143.106.73.150] has joined #lisp 19:29:00 oh wait a moment 19:29:09 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-207-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:19 forgot to remove debugging code 19:29:37 make sure that slime-fontifying-fu.el is at revision 1.8 19:30:37 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-60-218.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:31:35 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:31:36 Zenton` [n=user@80.29.231.192] has joined #lisp 19:32:18 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:17 -!- jao [n=jao@207.Red-79-155-247.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:35:16 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:35:40 tcr: [This is a stupid question, but if you answer it, I promise to provide a patch to the SLIME manual...] What's the right way to set a keybinding that will affect both the slime-repl and cl mode buffers? 19:37:05 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 19:39:01 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:39:45 (slime-define-keys slime-parent-map '((key command) ...)) 19:40:04 jmbr [n=jmbr@19.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:40:07 If you want a prefix binding (C-c ...) then use slime-prefix-map 19:40:58 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 19:42:41 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:43:55 tcr: Can you make mods to the slime-parent-map after SLIME is loaded, or is it too late then? Also, you can't use this trick to override bindings made in only one place or the other, can you? 19:44:19 [as an aside, I'm thinking it might be nice to add a sub-section about keybindings to the customization chapter of the manual.] 19:44:28 you should be able to do that interactively 19:44:57 I'm afraid I do not understand your second question, could you phrase it easier for me, please? 19:45:06 tcr: I was looking to do that in a hook function. My hands have expectations from years of ELI use that I am just trying to force into SLIME. 19:45:14 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-34-221.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:21 (Not anyone else's SLIME, just my own) 19:45:31 -!- delqna [n=delqna@p54A36719.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:45:36 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:46:06 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:46:10 tcr: What happens if I want to bind, say, C-c d, and that's bound for the repl only. Then there won't be a binding for it in the parent map, and won't the repl map override anything I push into the parent map? 19:46:22 You do not need to do that in a hook function if you do not use slime-autoloads 19:46:25 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-31-88.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:46:26 Any TeX experts here? 19:46:47 you switched from word to TeX? 19:46:58 tcr: Just load slime, and then load my mods, right? That's what I'm doing currently. Mostly works. 19:47:08 rpg: Yes, that's true. (overriding) 19:47:16 Well, it looks like Apress is planning to not just copy-edit Coders at Work in Word but actually typeset it that way. 19:47:28 Which seems terrible for a book containing an interview with Donald Knuth. 19:47:54 tcr: OK. What do you think about adding keybindings to the manual? Would that be a worthwhile use of a little of my time. 19:47:54 gigamonkey: it could be worse, believe me 19:47:56 gigamonkey: Urgs! 19:48:28 gigamonkey: imagine TAoCP typeset with InDesign 19:48:39 gigamonkey: not an expert but I use it in my professional life 19:48:51 What I need is someone to help me out with figuring out how to use arbitrary fonts. 19:49:04 p_l: At least InDesign uses Knuth's line-breaking algorithm. 19:49:33 I'm hoping that if I can use the fonts they want, I can convince Apress to let me typeset it in TeX. 19:49:37 how arbitrary? In what format are your fonts? 19:49:49 I haven't tried it, but XeteX is reputed 19:50:04 gigamonkey: now the shocker - the book is first OCRed, loaded into Word, translated/edited, loaded into some DTP software and typeset trying to follow images from initial scanning :> 19:50:04 to have better font support than vanilla (La)TeX 19:50:05 Krystof: TrueType or OpenType. I'm not sure--whatever someone like Apress is likely to use. 19:50:15 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 19:50:34 p_l: that wouldn't be all that terrible for the publishing industry 19:50:55 it's not THAT recently that companies generally started accepting novels in electronic format, for instance 19:50:56 Hmmm. Xetex looks like it might do the trick. Thanks. 19:51:40 alternatively, the book you want to read is "TeX Unbound" 19:51:43 gigamonkey: If you manage to make sure that your generated PDF follows certain conventions, I'm pretty sure they'll get it printed :) 19:51:47 I've got to run--I've got an anxious two-year old tugging on me. But if anyone knows a TeX/Xetex expert who wants to do a good deed, have them get in touch with me. 19:51:47 I can lend you a copy, next time you're in the UK :-) 19:52:12 Krystof: why don't you just print it out and airlift it to me. ;-) 19:52:46 rpg: It may be worthwhile to request such a chapter on the mailing list, and a couple of your desiderata. I'm not sure the current affairs was created with customization in mind 19:53:03 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp203-122-218-151.lns12.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:53:18 tcr: I thought that in exchange for your patience with my dumb questions, I would rough something out and contribute it for review. 19:53:21 ЫÑSo, clutter is all the raof UI toolkits, now, it appears.. 19:53:58 So, clutter is all the rage of UI toolkits now, it appears.. 19:54:07 tcr: speaking of dumb questions: have I messed something in my config for compiling? When I compile interactively I see that I got a couple of warnings and a style warning, but they aren't visible.... 19:54:28 C-based, it would be easy to bind to. 19:55:01 "Runs on Linux, Windows and OSX with backend window system support for GLX, EGL, WGL, SDL and Cocoa." 19:55:02 -!- CrazyEddy [n=pediculo@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:55:05 deepfire: which toolkit is this? 19:55:25 rsynnott, Clutter, the stuff behind Moblin. 19:55:39 problem is that no-one wants to use C-based toolkits from C++ 19:55:57 which is still the big thing used in developing deskktop apps 19:56:00 rsynnott, why is that a problem? 19:56:25 rsynnott: They can make it client-server with client having nice object wrapper ;-) 19:56:32 Intel's behind that, and big big bucks are poured down in that direction.. 19:56:33 just like WPF 19:56:49 CrazyEddy [n=cobra@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 19:58:12 I'll be unpopular and say the first demo google showed me was fugly 19:58:54 rpg: The *Slime Compilation* buffer does not pop up automatically by default. 19:59:06 http://moblin.org/documentation/moblin-netbook-intro demoes Clutter 19:59:41 rpg: You can use next-error (C-x ` or M-g n) to get it 19:59:44 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has quit [] 19:59:56 tcr: Ah! Thanks! 20:00:21 Well, in a fairly detail-free way, as it's a platform demo, not an UI toolkit demo. 20:00:55 jao [n=jao@42.Red-79-155-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:55 rpg: But I usually just use M-n in the buffer I just compiled 20:01:03 tcr: that fixed it. thanks :) 20:01:08 tcr: Ah. Now I see. Sorry. I have different expectations. 20:01:15 glxgears 31.437 FPS <--- should tell something about me, intel and 3D in one context :/ 20:01:29 rpg: You can use M-n and M-p to browse through the notes in the buffer 20:01:46 rpg: You can customize slime-compilation-finished-hook 20:01:47 tcr: I see that now. That is very clever... 20:02:06 p_l: i have 60 fps! 20:02:12 rpg: C-c M-c to remove the note highlightings 20:03:03 rpg: try (setq slime-compilation-finished-hook '(slime-maybe-list-compiler-notes)) 20:03:28 -!- Modius [n=Modius@99.179.99.100] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:03:33 frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:03:33 this function is slime-compiler-tree contrib? 20:03:40 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-201-236.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:44 yes 20:03:46 *compiler-notes-tree 20:04:03 stassats`: intel's beloved card refuses to initialize 3D acceleration at all 20:05:50 i'm with intel card too, i don't even think about 3D 20:06:02 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-179.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:07:23 fe[nl]ix: thank you very much. I need to do some more living with SLIME. Bouncing back and forth is probably not a good thing. 20:07:40 mokogobo [n=mokogobo@76.84.19.124] has joined #lisp 20:08:02 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-216-240.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:27 noptys [n=noptys@and.noemailaddress.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:32 rpg: you could write an "ELI user's guide to Slime" :) 20:08:59 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-179.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 20:09:29 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-195-183.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:09:50 afk, trying out new X.Org config 20:09:56 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-207-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:10:22 fe[nl]ix: No, it's worse than that! ;-) 20:10:41 *rpg* already has "Symbolics user's guide to ELI." 20:11:10 fe[nl]ix: My ELI bindings are deviant to begin with, which makes second-order deviance by the time I get to SLIME. 20:11:17 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@static-70-108-241-27.res.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 20:11:47 Oh, and of course, I only use SLIME with SBCL and ELI with ACL, so I have a hard time with credit assignment --- is this thing happening this way because of SBCL vs ACL or SLIME vs ELI? 20:16:02 -!- frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:12 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@86.99.142.187] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:17:15 in beautiful example of things gone wrong, shutting down X.Org killed my system.. 20:18:17 frobar [n=ulf@85.8.5.196.static.se.wasadata.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:37 stassats, it's supposed to progress quickly, given that keithp is working on the intel driver, and is being paid by intel.. 20:18:42 is there some way to make 'member' only check a specific number of elements? 20:18:46 gah 20:18:50 Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.96.14] has joined #lisp 20:19:23 Mack_ [n=Mack@ool-43574d03.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:54 -!- jao [n=jao@42.Red-79-155-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:19:56 frobar: yes. 20:19:59 clhs member 20:20:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_member.htm 20:20:24 clhs subseq 20:20:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subseq.htm 20:20:44 deepfire: supposed, yeah 20:21:35 -!- Mack_ [n=Mack@ool-43574d03.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 20:22:01 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-11835.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 20:22:38 jao [n=jao@121.Red-83-33-181.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:30 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-17-207-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Success] 20:24:25 I'm having a problem with slime where in the repl or inside of a slime-mode buffer, it bails with [Condition of type UNDEFINED-FUNCTION] with standard emacs library functions like shell-command(). Any idas? 20:24:26 -!- jao [n=jao@121.Red-83-33-181.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:25:03 ugh. "Is this project alive?" 20:25:06 *hefner* loads his shotgun 20:25:07 frobar: but if you only need to know whether an element is present or not, you could use instead position :end 20:25:14 this is on Ubuntu, but I get the same behavoir whether I use the system debs or remove it all and build my own sbcl and slime. I've also tried different versions of sbcl and slime 20:26:16 noptys: you are trying to call emacs functions in common lisp? 20:26:35 jao [n=jao@189.Red-81-32-180.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:29 noptys: if that was the case, you could have a look at http://paste.lisp.org/display/22414 20:27:31 pjb: ok, thanks 20:28:03 stassats`:that does seem to be what I'm doing. But I seem to recall other people using slime as a programming mode for emacs elisp files 20:28:40 *noptys* reading 20:28:55 noptys: perhaps you mean paredit? 20:29:01 no, slime is only suited for common lisp 20:29:14 AFAIK, there's no emacs lisp or emacs-cl backend for slime... 20:29:20 (well, bunch for other languages) 20:29:39 err, for bunch of other languages 20:29:53 so this is not a bug - slime should't know, for example, about functions in simple.el distributed with emacs 20:30:07 no, it shouldn't 20:30:46 hmpf 20:34:09 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-201-236.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:36:05 jao` [n=jao@27.Red-79-155-246.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:34 -!- bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:39:19 -!- ejs [n=eugen@38-165-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:40:10 frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:40:43 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 20:41:00 -!- frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:43:04 jao`_ [n=jao@210.Red-83-39-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:48 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:43:59 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:44:11 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:06 -!- bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:45:08 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:45:56 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:30 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 20:48:25 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 20:49:50 -!- jao [n=jao@189.Red-81-32-180.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:50:31 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:53 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:51:01 *hefner* gets 18,000 glxgears frames per second 20:52:21 -!- OberWork` is now known as OberWorked 20:52:51 -!- jao`_ is now known as jao 20:54:15 *sbahra* gets -2147483647 frames per second 20:54:32 impressive! 20:55:13 -!- jao` [n=jao@27.Red-79-155-246.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:56:46 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-165-150.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:12 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:57:20 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 21:00:24 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:01:08 seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 21:01:59 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:03:33 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-11835.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:03:44 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:05:56 -!- mokogobo [n=mokogobo@76.84.19.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:07:04 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:12:47 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@49.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:12:57 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:13:43 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:57 -!- t [i=tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has left #lisp 21:16:18 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:18:03 hmm. comp.lang.lisp seem to have read a all time low today.. (450 messages filtered out, 0 remaining) 21:18:46 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-216-240.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Operation timed out] 21:19:36 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-216-240.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:17 what's the name of the function that destructively increments an integer variable again? 21:21:30 incf 21:21:39 thanks 21:23:24 * not a function 21:23:40 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 21:23:44 yeah, macro, sorry :) 21:24:14 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:24:33 it also works with any kind of number 21:24:49 ok 21:25:05 frobar: (let ((a #c(1 2))) (incf a)) 21:25:11 -!- jao [n=jao@210.Red-83-39-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:25:51 is #c(1 2) a complex number? 21:25:59 yep 21:26:01 okay 21:28:49 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-202-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:29:37 MasochisticLibra [n=Masochis@c-24-2-191-235.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:48 jao [n=jao@40.Red-81-32-179.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:09 -!- MasochisticLibra [n=Masochis@c-24-2-191-235.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:30:42 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@19.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:34:04 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:34:20 -!- semyon421 [n=semyon@217.67.122.44] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:37:54 -!- jao [n=jao@40.Red-81-32-179.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:39:39 -!- jmbr_ is now known as jmbr 21:40:42 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:41:56 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 21:42:48 jao [n=jao@1.Red-81-32-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:26 is there a member-like function that works with vectors? 21:44:38 clhs find 21:44:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_.htm 21:44:42 POSITION, FIND 21:44:47 thanks 21:48:54 frobar: You might want to get the "Common Lisp Quick Reference" from http://clqr.berlios.de/ 21:49:41 i'll take a look 21:50:05 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:51:50 -!- jao [n=jao@1.Red-81-32-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:51:54 no, there isn't 21:52:48 Isn't what? 21:53:36 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 21:54:01 "a member-like function that works with vectors" 21:54:11 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-179.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 21:54:11 there is (subseq sequence (position item sequence)) 21:54:18 BTW, I've been browsing the clqr and there are two thing I completely don't get. Lots of functions have :key argument like: (count foo sequence :key function), what is that? The other thing is an often mentioned fill-pointer, what's that? 21:54:41 that be not "-like" 21:56:02 (count foo sequence :key function) == (loop for bar across sequence count (eql foo (function bar))) 21:56:51 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@49.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:56:59 stassats`: I'll try to digest that, thx. 21:57:12 And what about the fill pointer? 21:57:14 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483B59A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:22 clhs fill-pointer 21:57:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fill_p.htm 21:57:37 stassats`: Not subseq, make-array with a displacement... 21:57:40 ok 21:57:51 (length (make-array 10 :fill-pointer 3)) => 3 21:58:05 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:18 What's the usual practical point of having a larger sequence with a fill-pointer? 21:59:26 (smaller than the sequence) 21:59:34 clhs vector-push 21:59:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_vec_ps.htm 21:59:43 clhs vector-push-extend 21:59:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_vec_ps.htm 21:59:52 tic [n=tic@c83-249-195-183.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:00:20 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-195-183.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 22:00:26 tic [n=tic@c83-249-195-183.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:01:47 -!- nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving the office"] 22:01:57 klausi [n=klausi@port-92-193-28-3.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:03:19 That does not really explain what fillpointer is for. If you have a array and you want to fill it dynamically you need a :fill-ponter to point to the past entered element. Good for push and push-net also used in conjunction with :adjustable in make-array. 22:03:39 s/past/last/ 22:04:07 s/push-net/push-new/ 22:04:10 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:04:18 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:04:57 pushnew works only on lists 22:05:42 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483B59A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:06:32 sorry I ment vector-push and vector-push extend 22:08:01 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483CA4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:09:03 antoszka: the point of having a vector larger than the fill-pointer, is so that when you need to add an element, you have free space in the vector to do so. Otherwise, you would have to allocate a new array and copy the old elements first. Thus it allows to implement vector-push in O(1) instead of O(n). 22:09:38 pjb: thanks 22:11:10 -!- klausi [n=klausi@port-92-193-28-3.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:11:47 Zenton`` [n=user@80.29.229.120] has joined #lisp 22:13:01 klausi [n=klausi@port-92-193-28-3.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:14:02 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:14:49 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["leaving"] 22:14:52 dysinger [n=tim@216.243.14.115] has joined #lisp 22:15:31 well if you are going to be adding an infinite number of elements then the amortized cost is O(logn) anyway ;) 22:16:35 -!- mqt [n=tran@caledonia.rh.rit.edu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:16:49 S11001001: only if you increase the size of the vector by more than 1, that is, if you (almost) always have a vector with free space. Hence (vector-push-extend new-element vector (length vector)) with vector an adjustable fill-pointed vector. 22:18:03 I assume exponential growth 22:18:09 because nothing else is sensible 22:18:16 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p32239-ipngn601marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:18:41 is there a shorthand way to write (or (eql x "a") (eql x 1)...) ? 22:18:45 of course, since you know in advance you are adding an infinite number of elements, you might as well just allocate a buffer that big in advance, making the amortized cost O(1) 22:18:57 ramus`: member 22:19:08 ah right, thanks 22:19:17 (eql x "a") doesn't make much sense 22:19:44 ramus`: you may also write: (position x #(#|notice a vector!|# "a" 1 ...)) 22:20:07 so it takes half the space (if you have a lot of elements). 22:20:14 mqt [n=tran@caledonia.rh.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 22:20:31 stassats`: okay, okay, equal 22:20:41 then :test (function equal) 22:20:43 -!- dv_ 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