00:00:59 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r3a98.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:04:52 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634405.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:04:54 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 00:06:55 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 00:07:58 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-83-84.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:54 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:12:26 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:16:23 jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 00:17:43 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-6-30.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:19:27 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-40-192.ucr.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:20:47 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087F7CC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:31 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["DON'T PANIC"] 00:25:33 cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 00:26:18 Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.133] has joined #lisp 00:26:39 -!- dysinger [n=tim@c-24-21-189-229.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:26:43 -!- jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:27:30 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:32:25 _death [n=death@bzq-84-110-248-38.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:04 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-167-159.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:33:16 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-167-159.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:42 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:39:58 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 00:43:12 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 00:43:37 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 00:48:13 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:30 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@175.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:55:31 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:57:15 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 01:02:54 -!- delqna [n=delqna@ABordeaux-158-1-5-73.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:03:09 -!- Guest87326 [n=user@72.14.228.89] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:03:09 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:03:09 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:03:09 -!- zilt [n=zilt@67.23.13.119] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:03:09 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:03:09 -!- rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:03:09 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:03:14 -!- DrForr [n=drforr@eldwist.darkuncle.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:03:14 -!- Schmidt [i=lsc@c193-150-248-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:03:14 -!- Dazhbog [n=sampo@geek.fi] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:03:14 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:03:14 -!- hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.100] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:03:40 Schmidt [i=lsc@c193-150-248-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:03:40 DrForr [n=drforr@eldwist.darkuncle.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:40 Dazhbog [n=sampo@geek.fi] has joined #lisp 01:03:40 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 01:03:40 hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.100] has joined #lisp 01:04:00 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:04:08 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl468.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- kei [n=gueorgui@gmt.su] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-99331297243b1af7] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.132.33] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-14ce2fe5f705b425] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-214-9-199.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-ede270d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-195-183.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- Bucciarati [n=buccia@212.45.155.126] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:08 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.117.81] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:04:15 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Success] 01:04:31 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 01:05:10 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 01:05:10 brandelune [n=suzume@pl468.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:05:10 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 01:05:10 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 01:05:10 kei [n=gueorgui@gmt.su] has joined #lisp 01:05:10 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:10 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 01:05:10 joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 01:05:10 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 01:05:10 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:10 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 01:05:10 jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 01:05:10 p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-99331297243b1af7] has joined #lisp 01:05:10 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 01:05:10 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 01:06:24 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["DON'T PANIC"] 01:06:38 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 01:06:38 jthing [n=jthing@212.251.244.254] has joined #lisp 01:06:38 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-14ce2fe5f705b425] has joined #lisp 01:06:38 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-214-9-199.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:38 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 01:06:38 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 01:06:38 joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 01:06:38 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:38 meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:38 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 01:06:38 mikezor [n=mikael@c-ede270d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:06:38 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:38 tic [n=tic@c83-249-195-183.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:06:38 a-s [n=user@92.80.117.81] has joined #lisp 01:06:38 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 01:06:38 Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 01:06:38 Bucciarati [n=buccia@212.45.155.126] has joined #lisp 01:07:12 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-14ce2fe5f705b425] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:11:36 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634405.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 01:11:40 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.101.243] has joined #lisp 01:15:30 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:16:14 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 01:16:15 zilt [n=zilt@67.23.13.119] has joined #lisp 01:16:20 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 01:16:31 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 01:16:34 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 01:17:00 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:25 yango [n=yango@212.170.49.208] has joined #lisp 01:24:40 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:25:24 -!- Guest98584 is now known as tsuru 01:27:41 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:29:03 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:29:07 -!- vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:30:19 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:47 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-220-251-117.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:31:47 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-220-251-117.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:35 Qsource [i=dima@torch.blackened.com] has joined #lisp 01:34:59 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:27 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634405.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:35:53 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:36:38 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-220-251-117.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:39:20 is there a well-documented way to make (read) safe to use on untrusted input? 01:40:12 Yes: don't use it. 01:41:38 any refs or google keywords for some posts/articles about why that's a bad idea? 01:42:54 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:43:03 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-220-251-117.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:41 What happens if your input stream consists of more opening round delimiters than you have bytes of memory? 01:43:52 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:44:16 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:45:35 that doesn't concern me so much. i'm still feeding it the stream. i'm looking for something along the lines of clever ways to subvert the application (like if it accidently evals part of your input) 01:46:24 <_3b> like #.(do-something-evil) ? 01:46:33 <_3b> (you can turn that off before reading though) 01:46:50 In theory binding *READ-EVAL* to false suppresses those effects. 01:46:51 _3b: yes, I already have (with-standard-io-syntax (let ((*read-eval* nil)) ... 01:47:05 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:48 but, is that enough? ordinarily, in a C program, the parser would be 100 lines and I'd feel confident that it's secure. using the reader is so nice and convenient, but i have a feeling that *read-eval* isn't the end of the story. and i've been looking for evidence... 01:48:10 the end of the story is that READ can consume arbitrary memory 01:48:12 <_3b> #10000000000(0) ? 01:48:20 as _3b demonstrates 01:48:42 kpreid: that's not the end of the story. let's say the input was handed to you as a single piece (e.g., it came from a udp packet) 01:48:47 So denial of service due to crashing is not a concern? 01:49:42 Qsource: due to #( and #* syntax, the structure is not limited to taking up a fixed multiple of the input size (well, unless you take array-dimension-limit as that multiple) 01:50:08 The other reason you don't want to use READ is that it may intern arbitrary symbols 01:50:12 <_3b> also, you can't turn off interning symbols, so you have to watch out for accumulating random symbols 01:50:29 which, besides being a memory leak, *might* change the behavor of your program if it does things upon not finding symbols -- or your CL implementation does 01:50:46 kpreid: great! so has someone come up with a list of these concerns and written the macro to turn all that shit off? it can be read into a dedicated package and IIRC :package: prefix syntax can be turned off. 01:51:13 No, : can't (portably) be turned off. 01:51:26 Yes, someone should write a 'safe reader'. No, nobody's done it yet. 01:51:29 i found some stuff about someone's "safe reader" implementation, but no source code 01:51:48 (aka it might've just been in their head) 01:51:49 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.101.243] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:53:10 climacs probably has one, sort of. 02:02:42 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 02:07:16 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:15:28 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-83-84.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 02:15:51 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:15:52 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-83-84.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:58 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:25 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:29:55 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:42 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-216-144.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:57 saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 02:43:32 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-387b2ed73b063f1c] has joined #lisp 02:44:30 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-182-152.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:30 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:48:36 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 02:51:25 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:37 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-75-78.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["« La POO c'est bien beau, mais en C au moins on va droit au but. »"] 02:52:55 -!- photon is now known as Guest52575 02:53:42 is there a proclaim'ation to hush SBCL compiler notes? 02:54:22 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 02:56:30 jlf` [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:58:23 -!- Guest52575 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Success] 03:00:30 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 03:03:22 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.55.199] has joined #lisp 03:05:10 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-220-251-117.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:06:56 I think you can deactivate the "style warnings", but I don't know how. 03:07:38 <_3b> (declaim (sb-ext:muffle-conditions sb-ext:compiler-note)) ? 03:08:18 mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-209-44.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:40 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-220-251-117.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:30 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.133] has quit ["leaving"] 03:22:39 dysinger_ [n=tim@166.129.147.93] has joined #lisp 03:27:54 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Success] 03:29:47 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:30 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.55.199] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:41:04 _3b, thanks a lot! 03:48:33 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 03:56:46 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:53 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 04:00:09 minion: memo for beach: As predicted Apress had no trouble with 484 pages. Though I think my theory was the correct one since they made that decision without looking at any of the edited chapters. 04:00:35 Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 04:11:23 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.152.38] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:11:31 -!- mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-209-44.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:12:01 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:12 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:12:37 gigamonkey, new edition of PCL? 04:14:46 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:14:55 i think that's about the other book, hackers/programmers at work? 04:16:28 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:53 Fare: Coders at Work. 04:17:22 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-18-196.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:17:32 Though I am considering a 2nd ed. of PCL, if Apress is interested. 04:18:28 coders :) i knew it didn't match but couldn't recall the right word 04:18:37 gigamonkey, did you i/v guy steele? 04:18:46 Yes. 04:18:54 gigamonkey, did you i/v any1 @ ITA? 04:19:13 Fare: Nope. But I stayed with Dan Weinreb when I was in Boston. 04:19:18 -!- meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:19:32 you were in BOS & didn't visit me? :( 04:19:44 Are you at ITA? 04:19:48 yes 04:20:01 I stopped in the office and Dan showed me around. 04:20:07 gah 04:20:18 This was more than a year ago, though. Were you there then. 04:20:46 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:21:26 yes 04:21:55 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:22:30 meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:49 I just poked my head in a few offices. I think the only person I saw who I knew (from online) was sellout. 04:26:01 *gigamonkey* wonders if everyone at ITA refers to cities by their airport codes 04:26:02 -!- meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:26:31 meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:03 gigamonkey: we do in ATL 04:33:27 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:33:44 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:34:34 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-5-73.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:35:06 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:35:07 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:19 *hefner* wonders if ITA employs a large number of rappers 04:41:52 hefner: I think they have purple drank in the company drink freezers 04:42:41 makes me regret never finishing the solution to that 2-time pad riddle. 04:43:02 they ask to solve a two time pad? 04:43:22 it was one of the programming puzzles on their recruiting page 04:43:34 heh, I think someone was asking about that in ##crypto a little while bac 04:43:40 *back 04:44:59 Guys, how can I find out what a function does inside Slime? 04:46:00 konr: M-. ? 04:46:18 ..that'll take you to the location where the function is defined 04:46:26 and M-, takes you back 04:48:59 lnostdal: wow! now that was useful! Thanks! 04:49:37 lnostdal: is there a way to get just the documentation string without going to another file, however? 04:50:13 yup; http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Documentation.html 04:51:04 i've bound some of these things to my F1 - F12 keys 04:52:17 jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 04:53:12 (the manual mentions how you can bind keys to slime-repl-mode-map and slime-mode-map) 04:53:55 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 04:58:19 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 05:05:28 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has left #lisp 05:14:18 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-166.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 05:17:23 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 05:18:27 hello 05:25:15 -!- jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:26:02 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@166.129.147.93] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:29:51 xan-afk_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:29:59 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:30:16 hi 05:34:41 -!- beach` is now known as beach 05:34:59 Good morning everyone. 05:34:59 beach, memo from gigamonkey: As predicted Apress had no trouble with 484 pages. Though I think my theory was the correct one since they made that decision without looking at any of the edited chapters. 05:35:13 good morning 05:40:18 hi, I'm trying to use Intel MKL in SBCL. I tried to load with mkl's threading library (which use Intel's openmp implementation) but lisp crashed every time the foreign-function finished. Is there anyone succeeded using the threading library of Intel MKL? 05:41:05 kodama [n=sebastia@76-191-154-131.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:13 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-216-144.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:41:14 -!- xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:42:15 hello -- I've never used Lisp but would like to give it a try. I am using a Mac, I'm wondering if anyone has a recommended place to look for "how to get started"? 05:43:48 -!- kodama [n=sebastia@76-191-154-131.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:45:14 since SBCL has it's own thread implementation, is there possibilities that it conflicts to the MKL? I loaded with libmkl_gnu_thread.so which said to be compatible to pthread on Linux. 05:45:24 Any advices? 05:45:34 mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-209-44.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:56 eth7up [n=eth7up@66-191-193-066.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:49:42 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-387b2ed73b063f1c] has left #lisp 05:53:49 ejs [n=eugen@227-146-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:21 jmbr [n=jmbr@175.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 05:59:38 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:01:35 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-216-144.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:11 yo, beach 06:02:31 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 06:02:43 Hey gigamonkey. Congratulations to the 484 pages! 06:03:24 Thanks. 06:03:57 -!- holycow [n=rtaylor@64.151.208.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:03:58 I remembered a question I had for you: in your Lisp word processor project, what did you end up using for the graphical/UI side. 06:04:14 McCLIM of course. 06:04:18 Ah. 06:05:01 Was that a foregone conclusion--I recall at one point talking with you about some other non-Lisp libs for that kind of thing. 06:05:43 gigamonkey: I don't recall that. I would be very surprised if I had even hinted at the possibility of using anything else. 06:05:44 gigamonkey: have you written a new book? 06:05:52 Davse_Bamse: almost. 06:06:01 http://www.codersatwork.comm/ 06:06:09 Er, http://www.codersatwork.com/ 06:06:45 beach: maybe it was someone else. 06:07:03 gigamonkey: Pretty sure it must have been. 06:07:22 Well, I was just up to let the dog out. Good night all. 06:07:33 'night! 06:09:05 -!- ejs [n=eugen@227-146-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:09:18 good night gigamonkey 06:10:57 -!- eth7up [n=eth7up@66-191-193-066.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit ["leaving"] 06:11:41 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-10-119.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:12:05 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-18-196.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:12:08 -!- beach` is now known as beach 06:12:10 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:12:55 Mido91 [n=ahmedabd@217.139.3.2] has joined #lisp 06:19:06 Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.133] has joined #lisp 06:20:00 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.133] has quit [Client Quit] 06:25:08 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-216-144.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:26:31 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-0eab98fcfc64a951] has joined #lisp 06:31:38 I don't suppose Lars Brinkhoff hangs around here? 06:37:12 -!- mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-209-44.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:38:14 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit ["leaving"] 06:38:28 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 06:39:01 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-45.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 06:44:00 idurand [n=idurand@chataigne.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 06:44:04 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-6-30.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:46:26 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:46:40 Hi, with SBCL, how can I figure out what's the default value of the option " --dynamic-space-size Size of reserved dynamic space in megabytes" (it is said it's implementation dependent) 06:46:57 ;;good-morning 06:47:59 idurand: man/info sbcl 06:48:49 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.172.74] has joined #lisp 06:48:59 idurand: sorry misread your msg 06:49:03 trebor_d`: if I ask here, it's that I already looked and did not find the answer. 06:51:23 *trebor_d`* obviously lacks coffeine 06:51:48 ASau` [n=user@host126-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:54:34 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 06:55:15 -!- Mido91 [n=ahmedabd@217.139.3.2] has left #lisp 06:56:40 idurand: here (debian, 32bit) i think it is 512bm 06:57:53 trebor_d`: is that value store in some SBCL variable 06:58:18 trebor_d`: stored 07:00:08 andrew[andrboot] [n=andrew-f@unaffiliated/andrewandrboot/x-689432] has joined #lisp 07:01:40 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-45.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 07:02:44 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-6-30.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:02:55 i recall having to do something like; (cffi:defcvar dynamic-space-size :int) 07:03:22 ..then evaling dynamic-space-size would return the size 07:03:36 i've forgotten how sb-alien works 07:03:52 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 07:05:17 (sb-alien:define-alien-variable dynamic-space-size int) ;; figured it out .. :) 07:10:07 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:11:06 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:11:16 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:13:05 idurand: btw a different machine red-hat 64bit 64mb / 8 cores -> 8gb 07:13:13 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-ede270d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["brb"] 07:17:23 aerique [n=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:18:39 -!- xan-afk_ is now known as xan 07:19:04 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 07:26:09 Joreji [n=thomas@44-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:26:20 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:26:43 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-209-44.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:27:40 dysinger_ [n=tim@166.129.238.49] has joined #lisp 07:29:36 mikezor [n=mikael@c-ede270d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:31:15 Kickaha [n=jadawin@bl5-22-238.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 07:32:25 -!- Kickaha [n=jadawin@bl5-22-238.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 07:33:39 Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.133] has joined #lisp 07:36:40 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:36:51 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:37:21 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 07:37:31 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@175.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:38:28 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:38:56 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.172.74] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:39:25 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 07:39:40 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.133] has quit ["leaving"] 07:40:07 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-29-65.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:41:39 lispfoo [n=lispfoo@122.165.28.253] has joined #lisp 07:41:48 is there a charting library for lisp? 07:42:47 dv___ [n=dv@85-127-119-187.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 07:43:47 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:29 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 07:50:33 elias` [n=me@resnet-pat-254.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 07:51:10 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-0eab98fcfc64a951] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:52:35 You might want to took at a GNU plot interface 07:53:18 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@166.129.238.49] has quit [Success] 07:54:24 -!- ia__ [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:54:27 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 07:55:26 ia__ [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 07:56:24 tombom [i=tombom@86.29.146.83] has joined #lisp 07:57:55 jthing: gnuplot isn't GNU plot. 07:58:17 It has no relation to GNU. 08:01:39 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-6-30.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:02:42 jmbr [n=jmbr@175.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 08:02:54 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 08:03:05 lispfoo: I've used ADW-Charting in the past (http://common-lisp.net/project/adw-charting/). Worked well, but that was a year ago. 08:05:11 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 08:05:40 ASau: my bad, gnuplot 08:07:11 http://www.cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20and%20gnuplot 08:08:26 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:11:01 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 08:11:17 dwave_ [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 08:11:31 ASau: if you're making charts for display in the browser, I have had great success with the jquery "flot" library (which draws graphs in the html5 canvas element) and a json-generating hunchentoot instance 08:12:20 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:12:34 ASau: as they're vector graphics, the quality and interactivity of the graphs is much better than what I'm used to getting from image-generating things, and you save a lot of cycles on the server (: 08:13:07 gnuplot output tends to look like something from the 80s anyway 08:13:34 adw-charting uses vecto, IIRC, so looks much better, but you still get just an image back 08:13:41 no clicking on data points and all the nice stuff 08:15:28 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181140099.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:15:35 morning 08:18:12 antifuchs: the (sbcl stats?) page you linked to a while ago using flot looked very nice indeed 08:18:28 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.239.98] has joined #lisp 08:18:31 it is - and making it was really easy (: 08:21:53 strange... why doesn't (string 1) work? 08:22:06 nikodemus: morning! 08:22:43 the string function only accepts a string, symbol or a character, konr .. check the hyperspec 08:23:25 (princ-to-string 1) => "1" 08:23:44 Zenton [n=user@212.166.192.129] has joined #lisp 08:25:31 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl468.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 08:27:39 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:30:06 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 08:34:50 Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.133] has joined #lisp 08:34:59 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.133] has quit [Client Quit] 08:38:45 konr: there is unique representation of 1 as a string. "I" or "|" could also be valid (eg in Roman or "base-1"). There's much less unique representation of integers greater than 1 as a string. That's why a different function is needed, princ-to-string uses *print-base*. 08:43:45 antifuchs: hi! how are the new boinkmarks going? 08:46:47 cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 08:46:57 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:48:13 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@175.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:48:33 moin 08:53:59 -!- andrew[andrboot] [n=andrew-f@unaffiliated/andrewandrboot/x-689432] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:54:34 -!- lispfoo [n=lispfoo@122.165.28.253] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 08:54:43 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-490972118468875d] has joined #lisp 08:54:56 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-490972118468875d] has quit [Client Quit] 08:56:16 andrew[andrboot] [n=andrew-f@unaffiliated/andrewandrboot/x-689432] has joined #lisp 08:56:55 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-c7e4b98de3c4290d] has joined #lisp 08:59:02 jmbr [n=jmbr@175.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 09:00:01 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:00:29 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 09:00:32 G'day! 09:00:40 hello plage 09:00:48 -!- rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:01:28 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-6-30.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:01:59 what brings the day? 09:02:31 * translating that statement didn't work apparantly... 09:02:36 what's going on today? 09:06:24 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-199-60.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:06:57 Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-2-41.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:13:35 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 09:15:12 Are you asking me? Meetings, and more meetings. 09:15:26 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:15:54 -!- PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:17:43 -!- binarin`` [n=user@62.105.145.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:17:46 binarin`` [n=user@62.105.145.214] has joined #lisp 09:18:13 oh joy, that's the thing everybody loves to do (well, you may as well have something useful to do there) 09:18:39 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 09:18:55 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:19:04 madnificent: That's why I am on IRC. 09:19:15 :P 09:19:28 *and* you can get away with it 09:20:49 Oh yes. Most meetings are 90% useless and uninteresting. 09:26:45 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 09:26:56 -!- saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [] 09:28:23 do you guys recommend me any particular html-parsing library? 09:29:16 konr: what ever you will be advised, it will be heavily dependent on the task at hand 09:29:28 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:29:39 minion: closure-html 09:29:40 closure-html: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/closure-html 09:30:54 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@175.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:34:34 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:36:23 Numlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 09:39:52 -!- binarin`` [n=user@62.105.145.214] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:39:52 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:42:40 -!- Numlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:47:13 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:48:00 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:48:34 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:52:51 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 09:58:22 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:16 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@44-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:03:03 hi, I wrote a macro, which has the following part: (defmacro xxx-with-form (form? &body body) `(if ,form? (form ,@body) ,@body)) 10:03:28 unfortunately, if form? value is known at compilation time, I have warnings: deleting unreachable code, which is distracting 10:03:49 can I do something about this? 10:05:56 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-65.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:06:05 put the if outside the backquote 10:06:20 puchacz: muffle-conditions ? 10:07:07 plage: wouldn't work, because sometimes form? is known only at runtime. 10:07:44 Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.133] has joined #lisp 10:07:54 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.133] has quit [Client Quit] 10:08:03 clhs constantp 10:08:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_consta.htm 10:08:08 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-65.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 10:08:22 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-65.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:09:00 puchacz: if form? is known at compilation time, does the value from compilation time is used (by design, I mean)? 10:09:50 p_l: in general, form? value is not known at compilation. 10:10:10 or don't copy the body: (let ((exec (gensym "EXEC"))) `(flet ((,exec () ,@body)) (if ,form? (form (,exec)) (,exec))) 10:10:37 nikodemus: won't I have a warning on (,exec) ? 10:10:39 I will try 10:11:39 you should not -- not with sbcl/cmucl at least. the compiler is smart enough to figure that that would be an uninteresting warning as no code resultin from the "original source" is deleted 10:12:02 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-234-19.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 10:13:00 Numlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 10:13:00 nikodemus: you are right, no warning :-) 10:13:02 thanks, guys 10:14:08 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 10:14:27 borism [n=boris@195-50-204-63-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 10:14:41 err, I still have a warning due to some macro interactions if I put real code there; again, unused code. 10:14:44 how to muffle it? 10:14:54 ignas [n=ignas@78.59.166.221] has joined #lisp 10:19:28 here's a one way: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Controlling-Verbosity.html#Controlling-Verbosity 10:19:40 but i would not worry overly about code deletion notes 10:19:47 they are *not* warnings 10:19:51 just notes 10:20:18 is there a variation of progn that would work with, eg, (progn-variation '((foo bar) (baz bak) t))? 10:20:35 uh, what? 10:21:12 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 10:21:47 nikodemus: I can use progn to evaluate a number of forms, but is there a prebuilt similar function that evaluates the many forms inside of a list? 10:21:56 (defun like-so? (forms) (eval `(progn ,@forms))) ; don't do this, really 10:22:08 -!- Numlock is now known as PissedNumlock 10:22:32 konr: you mean, for any arbitrary list containing forms ? You would need eval. Try to avoid it if you can/ 10:22:52 if you think you need EVAL you are almost certainly doing something wrong -- well, 99% of people 99% of the time are when they use EVAL 10:23:30 if it's known at compiletime, you could make a macro out of it. That would drop the eval requirement. 10:24:01 there is nothing wrong with eval 10:24:23 byt, you have to understand how to use it 10:24:35 except that it's the wrong too for the things people tend to use it 10:24:41 tool, even 10:25:32 eg. it's not the way to build a robust dispatch mechanism on messags you receive from whatever source -- even if you vet those messages for malicious or malformed content 10:25:57 I recomend "lisp in Small Peices" by Quinnec to understand it 10:26:26 eg. it's not the way to define new things at runtime UNLESS there really is no other way 10:27:11 You have to understand that eval is slow 10:27:17 eg. it's not the way to convert lists to executable code. use COMPILE instead and store the resulting function so you don't need to recompile it the next time 10:27:37 and that it doesn't undertand lexical variables 10:28:00 i think those are the 3 most common misuses i've seen 10:28:37 And you would have to understand. 'macroes' which What I would normanny use 10:28:43 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.199.75] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:28:58 normally 10:29:11 hmmm, what other options are there? I got into this problem writing a macro. "... (progn ,(mapcar #'lambda(...) body))" is expanding to (progn ((delete-thread 'music 5411 :cookie-jar cookie-jar)))) 10:29:15 nikodemus: thanks 10:31:05 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:31:29 minion: memo for stassats: SBCL 1.0.28.47 fixes the horrible slowness of accessing potentially non-simple arrays with a declared element type 10:31:29 Remembered. I'll tell stassats when he/she/it next speaks. 10:32:13 minion: forget my memo 10:32:14 OK, I threw it out. 10:32:21 nikodemus: thanks, i saw that 10:32:39 or non, not yet 10:32:56 konr: (progn ,@(mapcar ... 10:33:15 or even just (cons 'progn (mapcar ... 10:33:34 see, once again EVAL was the wrong solution :) 10:34:09 I probaly shult metion this but: progv 10:34:17 shouln't 10:34:29 -!- jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:34:38 progv is a thing of terrifying beaty 10:34:42 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 10:35:02 nikodemus: care to elaborate on that? 10:36:05 progv makes special variables 10:36:17 see the ANSI spec 10:37:11 jthing: about the beauty :) 10:37:17 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-199-60.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Success] 10:38:18 As I said I probably shouldn't manttion it, madnificent 10:38:24 mention 10:38:49 Hi, madnificent. 10:38:56 I see you are stalking me. 10:39:11 jthing: fair enough... but I wondered why nikodemus found it to be of terrifying beauty... I wanted to know why he found that :) 10:39:25 hello bob_f. I'm doing the best I can 10:39:50 madnificent: you need it to implement LET for special variables in an evaluator 10:40:20 it is an exceedingly logical and necessary operator -- even if slightly terrifying 10:40:56 ahh, like that. Now I understand the beauty a bit better 10:41:20 it is also brilliant for all manner of customization uses: (progv (mapcar #'car *custom-bindings*) (mapcar #'cdr *custom-bindings*) ...) 10:43:04 sexy 10:44:21 all runtime all dynamic, ALL SLOW 10:45:35 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:51 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 10:47:21 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:50:07 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-194-183.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:51:26 it's interesting that it actually "creates a new .." and does not have to know the name at compile time etc. .. hm, code can just "blindly" use names .. orsomething 10:52:00 right 10:52:25 It is bound at run time 10:53:03 i assume that this is thread-local? .. the binding .. hm, it must be 10:53:25 yees 10:53:38 (as LET on specials are built on this, if i understand correctly) 10:53:42 it's like let, but dynamic 10:53:51 right 10:54:13 wonder what crazy stuff one could create using this .. hehe 10:54:22 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:54:27 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-6-30.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 10:54:28 lol 10:54:38 something evil, perhaps :) 10:54:54 eval is evil 10:55:22 yeah, but it's a bit dumb .. maybe this thing is evil and smart .. that's nice :P 10:56:39 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 10:58:21 *jthing* ask's you to forget I ever mentioned progv 10:58:48 *grin* 11:03:14 -!- bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:06:25 guys, I've got a 6-line function that is supposed to do a http-request using drakma, but doesn't. Strangely enough, using the code manually, without calling the function works just fine. Can you take a look? It must be something silly, but I just can't figure out :( http://pastebin.com/m2b3f88b4 11:09:00 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:09:14 how does it fail? 11:10:18 stassats: I get an "invalid user/password" error 11:10:24 on the server 11:11:05 -!- dwave_ [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Success] 11:11:06 DUH, so change the password 11:11:46 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:11:51 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 11:12:12 konr: try ,(string-downcase board) 11:12:54 or better just pass a string already to the function 11:13:01 stassats: has apoint Lisp is case incensetive 11:14:27 stassats: haha, I can't believe.. that was it, thanks! 11:17:11 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 11:23:37 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-6-30.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:24:17 schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5f28bff39718aeb2] has joined #lisp 11:26:44 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.239.98] has left #lisp 11:26:48 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.239.98] has joined #lisp 11:28:18 Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.133] has joined #lisp 11:34:06 -!- HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:36:37 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:39:34 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 11:39:34 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-c7e4b98de3c4290d] has left #lisp 11:41:10 bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has joined #lisp 11:45:59 benny99 [n=benny@p5486FA65.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:49:28 -!- benny99 [n=benny@p5486FA65.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:50:41 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:54:26 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 11:56:17 do you get a truncated page for the following url ? http://www.cliki.net/admin/search?words=asdf 11:56:39 lichtblau [n=user@wallstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 11:56:58 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:31 as in... no results displayed? yep 11:58:47 kuwabara: yes. 11:59:27 eleos [n=eleos@serial.iekdelta.ondsl.gr] has joined #lisp 12:00:30 jmbr [n=jmbr@175.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:03:44 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-159-199.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:04:10 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-155-65.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:04:15 -!- eleos [n=eleos@serial.iekdelta.ondsl.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 12:04:17 The bug was already reported on 2006-05-17, almost 3 years ago on cliki bugs page. Is only cliki content alive, its framework beeing frozen forever ? 12:04:43 what would you recommend for slime-complete-symbol-function other than the default value? 12:04:49 good afternoon 12:05:34 mvilleneuve: good afternoon! 12:05:43 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 12:06:03 leo2007: i like fuzzy completion 12:07:07 kuwabara: i think the correct characterization is that the framework is frozen until (a) dan'b wants to start maintaining it again (b) someone whom dan'b trusts wants to take over 12:07:36 drewc is writing new cliki 12:08:26 stassats: May I ask what's wrong with ALIW? 12:08:55 only if i knew what it is 12:09:15 stassats: http://cliki.net/aliw 12:09:26 nikodemus: thanks 12:09:37 vy: and why are you asking me? 12:09:54 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-234-19.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 12:09:57 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:58 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 12:10:22 what does it mean if SLIME tells me The value (:LOCAL 2) is not of type (MOD 1152921504606846973) while inspecting the stack? 12:10:34 drewc: stassats told me that you're working on a new cliki clone. May I ask what's wrong with ALIW? (http://cliki.net/ALIW) 12:11:12 Is anybody here using vi and a slime clone? 12:14:12 stassats: is there a list of those functions that can be used? I want to try them out to find something I like. 12:14:29 I've been using fuzzy but it seems to give me too many completions 12:15:52 leo2007: M-x customize-variable RET slime-complete-symbol-function 12:16:57 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087F055.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:30 stassats: weird. I now can see a list of options. I did that before asking and it had no drop down menu. 12:17:33 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 12:17:34 thanks 12:18:58 stassats: overall fuzzy seems to be the best. I like that it converts to lowercase 12:19:10 what's the most commonly used xml library? 12:20:09 gertm: closure-xml 12:20:37 *nikodemus* gets (FILL (MAKE-ARRAY N) X) to stack allocate the vector 12:21:22 leo2007: but fuzzy doesn't do contextual completion 12:21:45 perhaps, i'll try to convince it later 12:22:12 hah, ditto for (REPLACE (MAKE-ARRAY (LENGTH V)) V) -- yay for stack allocated copies 12:23:18 stassats: What about other completion functions? do they provide c-c? 12:23:25 any other obvious functions that are transparent like that? 12:23:28 *Fare* is caught in Lisp DLL hell 12:23:35 leo2007: the one with * does 12:24:23 with debian, sbcl, slime, emacs, all disagreeing about which version other components should be. 12:24:33 plus a few .asd 12:25:03 "debian" --- here is your problem 12:25:23 stassats: there is also a function without the *, and it cannot be fed to slime-complete-symbol-function 12:25:36 but the function is just confusing 12:25:49 what function? 12:26:06 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.150.3] has joined #lisp 12:26:29 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 12:26:30 OK, so which version of SLIME should I be using? 12:26:38 nikodemus: test-case: (fill (setf a (make-array n)) x) ? 12:26:50 Fare: CVS HEAD? 12:27:00 (but I assume data flow is done correctly anyways). 12:28:02 correct -- won't stack allocate 12:29:01 Fare: that's why you should never, ever let debian anywhere near your lisp 12:29:32 Fare: I download all my packages except sbcl instead of the ones debian provides. 12:30:12 Fare: well, and emacs ofcourse, I download that from debian as well 12:31:08 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:31:19 nikodemus, howdy? Where are you working now? 12:32:31 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:32:57 what's the nickname of the guy who wrote neuroarena? (Rainer Joswig) 12:33:23 nickname of Rainer is lispm 12:33:34 stassats: slime-complete-symbol 12:33:47 stassats: ah, he's a frequent visitor, very well, thanks 12:34:01 dlowe [n=dlowe@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 12:34:16 but did he write it? 12:34:39 Fare: What implementation (the LOCAL one) 12:35:09 stassats: there was someone talking in #lisp about erlang and lisp... I assume that's the guy... 12:35:14 *madnificent* checks the logs 12:35:16 minion: logs 12:35:16 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 12:36:14 <_death> tcr: highlight-suppressed-forms seems rather buggy :/ 12:36:43 _death: Make sure your on HEAD 12:36:50 something somewhere is complaining about slime-repl-mode-map 12:38:00 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 12:38:04 tcr: was with some recentish SBCL and older SLIME. Now I'm trying to upgrade SLIME manually. 12:38:14 Fare: Are you using slime-fancy? And if not, make sure you use slime-repl 12:38:38 what's slime-fancy vs slime-repl, and how do I use either? 12:39:19 slime-fancy includes slime-repl, and you use it with (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) 12:39:24 the logs on clozure.com are live, that's cool. And the discussion didn't go about the game 12:39:42 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78.59.166.221] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:39:45 <_death> tcr: ok.. now I can get "The error was: (cl-assertion-failed (<= (point) limit))." 12:40:00 borsman [n=quassel@76.177.217.216] has joined #lisp 12:41:17 _death: Right, I know of a test case which triggers this. 12:41:31 _death: I'm about taking a look at it, perhaps it'll also fix your case. 12:41:39 <_death> cool 12:42:05 _death: For time being you can switch off highlighting of suppressed forms 12:42:13 <_death> that's what I ended up doing.. 12:42:22 But make sure to save your test case. 12:42:53 _death: hold on 12:43:02 *Fare* purges debian's SLIME which was causing some kind of conflict 12:44:03 nikodemus: I wonder whether it would make sense to have a specialized SORT-ALPHABETICALLY and expand to that for (SORT ... #'string<) 12:44:56 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:36 tcr nop 12:45:53 tcr: what would it do? bucket sort? 12:46:12 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Success] 12:47:13 Fare: temper,temper 12:47:14 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 12:48:21 hum... so getting slime from cvs, I don't get contribs... /me is reminded that cvs update requires flags -Pd or some such to be useful. Sigh. 12:50:00 vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:03 use clbuild 12:53:10 Fare: -dP 12:53:21 can someone tip me as to the newfangled slime-setup? This SLIME opens an *inferior-lisp* but no *slime-repl* 12:53:52 that's what (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) is for 12:54:50 Fare: I was not necessarily thinking of another algorithm, though you're right there may be better ones suited for that task (radix sort?), just a specialized one. 12:58:33 (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) ==> Invalid read syntax: ". in wrong context" 12:59:10 *Fare* is only backtracking in DLL hell 13:00:16 something in your ~/.swank.lisp ? 13:00:36 nah, probably a .emacs vs .xemacs/init.el discrepancy 13:00:39 gah 13:01:33 of course, xemacs -debug-init is useless 13:01:49 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 13:01:59 does it have debug-on-error ? 13:02:05 no .swank.lisp 13:02:05 http://paste.lisp.org/display/80206 13:02:14 stassats, how do I do that? 13:02:25 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:27 Fare: (setq debug-on-error t) 13:02:32 *Fare* hasn't debugged emacs lisp in a decade 13:02:32 I am trying to test this example http://www.peter-herth.de/ltk/ltkdoc/node51.html but I'm getting an error 13:02:35 my .emacs sile 13:02:47 file 13:02:53 -!- tsuru is now known as Guest2397 13:03:11 leo2007: what error? 13:03:19 failed to find the TRUENAME of ltk.lisp: No such file or directory 13:04:00 U running linux? 13:04:10 jthing, thanks! Apparently, requiring slime-autoloads instead of slime looks like it did the thing! 13:04:26 likI've linked ltk.asd in system 13:04:29 systems* 13:04:43 leo2007, is there a symlink to nowhere? 13:04:47 leo2007: well, your link doesn't use asdf 13:05:16 replace load and compile-file of ltk with (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :ltk) 13:05:16 stassats: how to change it to use asdf? 13:06:33 leo2007 pasted "t.sh" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80207 13:06:51 ignas [n=ignas@78.59.166.221] has joined #lisp 13:06:54 Fare: Good 13:06:57 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.150.3] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:07:02 -!- PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit ["leaving"] 13:07:12 stassats: I run the script in 80207 and it complains ASDF not found 13:07:16 Numlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 13:07:18 nah, the autoload only *defers* the error until I actually load slime. Sigh. 13:07:38 leo2007 pasted "error.log" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80208 13:07:39 leo2007: oh well, then you need to do (require :asdf) too 13:08:28 Fare: That's not slime, but SBCL 13:08:56 stassats: still getting the same error 13:09:43 Debugger entered--Lisp error: (invalid-read-syntax ". in wrong context")\n load-internal("slime-repl" nil t nil undecided) 13:09:51 Fare: You would probably need asdf to read Ltk.. 13:10:25 what ltk are you talking about? 13:10:36 leo2007: sbcl --eval "(require :asdf)" --eval "(asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :ltk)" 13:11:05 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:11:10 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:11:37 stassats: thanks. that worked. 13:11:48 Fare: LTL is a windows tk toolkit. 13:11:53 LTL 13:11:59 LTK 13:12:09 *Fare* does dichotomy eval-region on slime-repl to identify the error 13:12:11 windows? 13:12:17 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-168-132-106.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:23 Is it possible to dumb the core just enough to run that simple application? at the moment I'm getting a 26 M hello-world.core 13:12:34 leo2007: no 13:12:39 leo2007: why do you care? 13:12:50 -!- jewel_ is now known as jewel 13:12:53 stassats: it works for unix as well 13:12:55 leo2007, see bzexe 13:13:10 or http://mikael.jansson.be/log/freezing-lisp-in-time 13:14:35 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 13:14:56 sdsdskj [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:21 plage: easier to deploy 13:15:23 HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:15:52 leo2007: how so? 13:16:04 which was the html parsing library, again? 13:16:22 closure-thml 13:16:24 html 13:16:57 hmm. I use that too 13:16:57 leo2007: assuming you are using SBCL, save the core with :executable t, and then run gzexe on it 13:17:15 oh, tic already covered that -- nevermind me 13:17:42 HET3 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:17:46 and the culprit is with-canonicalized-slime-repl-buffer -- it uses a variable name with leading dot 13:18:08 which makes emacs 23 unhappy 13:18:32 so I use emacs 22 13:18:37 :) 13:18:59 -!- HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:19:04 where do I report the bug? 13:19:34 slime-devel@common-lisp.net 13:20:26 and it works fine with my emacs 23 13:20:32 I do use 23, too 13:20:32 Fare: see emacs help, bug menu 13:20:54 but I remember problems with some pecular emacs or xemacs version 13:21:56 -!- sdsdskj is now known as dto` 13:22:05 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.70.121] has joined #lisp 13:22:20 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-34-248.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:22:30 tic and nikodemus: that does significant reduce the size from 26 M to 8.1 M 13:24:17 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-34-248.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 13:24:29 actually, sbcl core is better gzippable than bzip2able 13:25:26 *Fare* sends bug report to slime-devel@cl.net 13:26:24 so am I the only slime user using emacs 23 ? 13:26:28 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2D898.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:33 interesting. 13:26:35 no 13:26:51 -!- jdz is now known as jdz_ 13:27:01 wait, that was not emacs 23 but xemacs 13:27:16 -!- jdz_ is now known as jdz 13:27:25 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:28:53 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:29:35 oh well, gzip is not smaller, i mistaken it for something 13:30:46 thanks a lot for the support! 13:31:26 xz compresses sbcl core down to 5 mb 13:31:40 *Fare* crushes stassats, jthing and tcr in a same big hug 13:31:47 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:32:02 stassats, does that matter much? 13:32:03 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 13:32:25 Fare: i'm ok with uncompressed core actually 13:32:28 stassats, if executable size matters, you should probably be using a compressed file system for your flash memory 13:32:45 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-16-238.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:32:54 uncompressing executables in userland don't save much if at all 13:34:09 *Fare* pops the stack, and tries to debug xcvb with slime once again 13:34:48 plage: I was thinking the traditional way of deploying applications. for example most c programs do not have a compiler etc or extra libraries bundled in it. 13:35:04 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CB01.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:35:18 leo2007: They are statically linked? 13:35:43 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:35:58 they don't include libc? 13:37:07 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-216-144.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:10 they don't include it in the executable or 'package' or whatever it is named 13:37:29 you can distribute only fasls 13:37:47 provided that they match the right version 13:37:50 plage and stassats: i guess cl and c are different since most operating systems provide those libraries already 13:38:29 any suggestions on how to study chtml? the object returned with chtml:parse is just too huge to be intelligible 13:38:32 leo2007: according to my experience, most c programs do rely on extra libraries which are either bundled (windows) or managed by a package manager (linux) 13:38:45 should I treat any lisp implementation such as sbcl more like a machine? 13:38:54 konr: use a different builder, e.g. the lhtml builder, dom, or stp 13:38:56 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:36 kuwabara: yes, that's my experience too. 13:39:37 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:39:41 hum. In the new slime, how do you clear the window? C-c C-t used to do that 13:39:46 or postprocess the html using xuriella xslt into more legible xml 13:39:52 Fare: C-c M-o 13:39:59 Fare: it is on the menu 13:40:00 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:04 C-c M-o reads as Clear Output :) 13:40:08 leo2007, thanks. What menu? 13:40:21 Fare: the menu bar of emacs 13:40:32 Emacs has a menu bar? 13:41:01 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-234-19.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 13:41:14 -!- ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has quit [Success] 13:41:15 the one that I disable first thing when I'm in text mode? 13:41:38 (or even in graphics mode, with those vertically-challenged wide screens) 13:41:38 oh, that one. i forgot it even exists. 13:41:51 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@63.107.91.99] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:41:51 -!- bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:41:51 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-204-63-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:41:51 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:41:51 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:41:51 -!- V-ille2 [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe43fb00-66.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:42:05 yes, I disable it in tty too but not in gui 13:42:55 *stassats* configured hardware video decoding, now emacs's term eats more cpu than mplayer running inside it 13:42:58 now I'm spammed with these: (7) (error/warning) Error in `post-command-hook' (setting hook to nil): (wrong-type-argument natnump t) 13:43:14 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 13:43:18 Fare: why do you use xemacs anyway? 13:43:27 dlowe [n=dlowe@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 13:43:27 bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has joined #lisp 13:43:27 borism [n=boris@195-50-204-63-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 13:43:27 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #lisp 13:43:27 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 13:43:27 V-ille2 [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe43fb00-66.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:44:42 -!- idurand [n=idurand@chataigne.labri.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:45:08 nA1828KcFz9q [n=nA1828Kc@cpe-071-065-237-135.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:45:37 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@novelletto.bio.uniroma2.it] has joined #lisp 13:45:47 stassats, because its gnuclient can actually open the current tty -- for each of many tty's 13:45:54 hello 13:45:56 hi Fare 13:46:00 in color, too. 13:46:13 fe[nl]ix, hi 13:47:26 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:47:39 beh had two typos in the code I comitted yesterday 13:47:44 that's what you get from ignore-errors 13:47:55 -!- nA1828KcFz9q [n=nA1828Kc@cpe-071-065-237-135.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:47:59 nA1828KcFz9q [n=nA1828Kc@cpe-071-065-237-135.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:48:20 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:48:47 celeste [n=cel@121.Red-79-151-50.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:54 -!- jdz_ is now known as jdz 13:49:07 -!- celeste is now known as cel 13:49:24 guys, I forgot to slime-connect and I have in REPL now: debugger invoked on a SIMPLE-CONDITION in thread # where is the restart menu now? 13:49:32 (SBCL) 13:49:39 hum. Anyone understands those post-command-hook warnings? How do I either (1) fix them, or (2) turn xemacs warnings off? 13:49:58 puchacz, ,restart-inferior-lisp ? 13:50:24 Fare: no, I have external lisp running 13:50:28 and slime-connect to it 13:50:39 but I forgot, and I have (break "") in code 13:50:46 *Fare* stops trying to pretend unit tests happen in a different package from the package being tested 13:50:46 which invoked a debugger, but I don't know where 13:50:57 *Fare* stops pretending packages are a module system 13:51:20 puchacz, and you want to? 13:51:33 -!- projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has left #lisp 13:51:56 Fare: get the restart menu in REPL, so I can release the thread being held now 13:52:20 which REPL? 13:52:26 SBCL's 13:52:29 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-65.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:52:35 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:42 I had this message in SBCL's REPL, because I forgot to connect Slime 13:52:49 so my thread is gone, blocked now 13:53:00 in Slime, I would have restarts, right? 13:53:44 simply: type a magic command into SBCL's REPL 13:53:48 to have restarts menu 13:53:58 for a thread that is sitting on (break "") 13:54:32 You can interrupt that thread 13:54:41 you can even do that from within slime 13:55:22 ok, found it in docs: (sb-thread:release-foreground) 13:57:25 Fare, stassats, _death: Please update to HEAD in approx. 10 minutes. 13:58:06 ok 13:58:16 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-6-30.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 13:58:18 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:58:46 benny99 [n=benny@p5486F990.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:56 _3b: You too. 13:59:13 btw, how much depends on ignore-errors? 14:00:42 It's not my code in this case, but font-lock.el 14:01:32 white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:02:19 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.150.3] has joined #lisp 14:02:49 yasuto [n=yasuto@pon100-117.kcn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:03:26 My woes with eldoc: http://paste.lisp.org/display/80210 14:05:34 are there libraries to work with the lhtml format? 14:06:09 konr: not that I'm aware of, no 14:06:36 Fare: Report it, too. I don't have the inclination to look at that now. 14:07:20 I do not even have xemacs installed 14:07:36 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has left #lisp 14:08:34 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-45.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 14:09:06 My impression is that people pick trivial lisp list formats like lhtml precisely because they want to work with them manually, not because they want to run them through libraries. When sending stuff through a library, other data structures tend to work better. Hence, nobody writes libraries for lhtml-style stuff, but everyone asks for parsers that emit them. 14:09:18 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.133] has quit ["leaving"] 14:09:51 tcr: well, now i can reproduce that again 14:10:27 sigh 14:10:58 but not that severe, it goes further just with one C-g 14:11:08 -!- ASau` [n=user@host126-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["Off!"] 14:12:05 In that case, it's not in an infinite loop, it's called very many times and always tries to display a warning containing a backtraces 14:13:00 *Fare* is back to code that compiles, if it doesn't run. 14:13:05 stassats: get a grip 14:13:47 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 14:14:44 That interrupt code works only under sbcl. 14:15:30 It'd s ininate loop. 14:18:13 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:19:26 sexybaaron [n=sexybaar@jetfire.ece.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 14:19:55 -!- nA1828KcFz9q [n=nA1828Kc@cpe-071-065-237-135.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:20:11 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-34-248.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:20:46 -!- HET3 is now known as HET2 14:22:33 tcr: i reduced test case to (a b c) with each letter on a separate line, inserting non-whitespace character just before ( hangs 14:25:31 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:27:00 Yes, it seems my function works too correctly. It correctly find out the region necessary to font-lock, but in that case the region is less than what it was initially called with 14:27:16 and that doesn't cope well with font-lock.el 14:28:25 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 14:29:55 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:30:28 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:31:44 -!- schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5f28bff39718aeb2] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 14:34:10 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:34:34 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 14:41:50 stassats: Ok fixed 14:42:45 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-216-144.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:46:36 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD9E2D898.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:47:31 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D898.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:37 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B697.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:12 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:48 -!- dv___ [n=dv@85-127-119-187.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 14:52:24 tritchey pasted "type declaration errors with filenames and simple-base-string" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80216 14:52:57 brown [n=user@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 14:53:26 -!- brown is now known as Guest51399 14:53:50 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:54:09 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 14:54:34 tritchey: simple-string? 14:54:43 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:55:27 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.239.98] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:56:31 stassats: thanks, I'll see what that does 14:58:35 Using common lisp, I would like to create types for units of measure, e.g.: weight-type, length-type, temperature-type, etc. They would be fixnums, integers or float and: 1) they should be usable as method specializers 2) they should not be compatible: it should be (typep (the temperature 10) 'weight) => NIL 14:58:37 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:58:38 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-34-248.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["« La POO c'est bien beau, mais en C au moins on va droit au but. »"] 14:58:39 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-216-144.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:55 do I need to use classes? It seems that deftype is not my friend. 14:59:39 classes would work 15:00:02 tritchey annotated #80216 "unable to expand inline" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80216#1 15:00:03 -!- Guest2397 is now known as tsuru 15:00:27 no way to use deftype? 15:00:38 rjack: not with generic functions. 15:00:47 dcrawford_ [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:00:57 -!- dcrawford_ is now known as dcrawford 15:01:03 rjack: also you definitely don't want that. 42 is a temperature or a lenght? 15:01:20 simple-string seems to work, with the caveat that is keeps the compiler from inlining. 15:01:43 I'm just happy it works at all 15:01:49 tritchey: well, then fix your incoming string to be of the type you want 15:02:03 Ok, I'll go with classes. Thanks :) 15:02:14 rjack: you want to use a different CLOS class or structure for each unit, and implement generic functions for each arithmetic operators that will check the unit consistency. 15:02:28 tritchey: I'd just remove the type declaration. it's not numerical code 15:03:04 rjack: since this means that you may have to create new units as long as you compute, (/ (meter 42) (second 3)) --> (meter/second 42/3), you may have only one class for all measures, that would have both a magnitude and a unit. 15:03:14 if they are too many mails, maybe it would be noticeable 15:03:46 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 15:03:51 -!- yasuto [n=yasuto@pon100-117.kcn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:04:05 fe[nl]ix: thanks. I'll go with that probably, FWIW, this is in the guts of mel-base, so the simpler solution the better 15:04:07 rjack: you may use a reader macro to make it easy to enter measures, and a corresponding print-object method): (/ #u(meter 42) #u(second 3)) --> #u((/ meter second) 42/3) 15:04:42 rjack: notice that this / function is not CL:/ which is not a generic function and that you cannot modify. You will have to shadow CL:/. 15:04:48 tritchey: if that's somehow performance sensitive, you could perform an explicit type dispatch. (defun uidify (file) (flet ((uidify (file) ...)) (declare (inline uidify)) (etypecase file (s-b-s (uidify file)) ...)) 15:05:28 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-45.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 15:05:38 mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e0ba97d7a9b1966c] has joined #lisp 15:06:51 hm, we could have dispatch tables similar to ones used for data vector accessors for other sequence functions as welll... 15:07:04 matimago: thanks, this will help me a lot. 15:07:49 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-45.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 15:08:30 pkhuong: I'm really just an end-user of mel-base, so I don't have a good feel for what this is even used for, or what its performance implications might be. 15:08:32 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 15:09:21 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@221.Red-79-152-43.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:10:20 attila_lendvai: around? 15:10:28 -!- benny99 [n=benny@p5486F990.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:11:10 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:11:49 rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:42 stassats: Works now? 15:13:46 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 15:13:52 tcr: yep 15:13:53 kidd2 [n=kidd@82.Red-79-150-113.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:18 kami-: hi 15:16:03 hello. what is the best strategy for migrating existing data in a cl-perec based app? 15:16:22 using postgresql tools to dump the data? 15:17:19 kami-: migrating meaning between postgres versions? 15:19:36 if between postgres versions, then the same as for any other postgres data 15:20:48 nazmey [n=nazmey_2@41.209.104.162] has joined #lisp 15:21:37 -!- nazmey [n=nazmey_2@41.209.104.162] has left #lisp 15:22:03 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 15:24:15 jophish [n=jophish@dial-80-47-3-226.access.uk.tiscali.com] has joined #lisp 15:24:40 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:40 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:24:56 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@novelletto.bio.uniroma2.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 15:25:22 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:25:45 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit ["Be back later"] 15:27:45 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:28:33 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:28:35 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:28:36 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:29:21 attila_lendvai: sorry. phone call. I create the db schema and _some_ of the data indirectly with the entities which I define and some singleton-persistent-instances 15:30:29 then I import some data from csv files which I read and then create instances with make-... 15:30:48 -!- V-ille2 [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe43fb00-66.dhcp.inet.fi] has left #lisp 15:31:23 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:42 kami-: i'm not sure i'm following, but when we need to migrate date then we usually write it out using cl-serializer, and then create some code that reads it in as slot data and import it as needed. this is usually not a trivial process (as any data migration that needs semantic changes) 15:32:18 blitz_ [n=blitz@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:23 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 15:32:43 but until the db has live data we just drop the model and recreate everything with a defun 15:33:18 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:33:40 once the db has live data, we go with alter table's. if some change requires different modeling, then comes the headache with cl-serializer or copying stuff into a temp table, etc... 15:33:59 but this is usually rare 15:34:14 attila_lendvai: yes. I was asking for the cl-serializer part, then. 15:35:05 attila_lendvai: it would probably be non-trivial to somehow keep the alter statements which are issued, when a class is redefined and exported to the db, right? 15:35:11 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host132.190-227-38.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:36:27 Help me out here: who are some other famous three-letter hackers: e.g. rms, esr, jwz 15:36:39 Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:36:40 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@23.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:36:56 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@175.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:37:24 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-130.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:37:50 rpg? 15:37:58 gls? 15:38:00 kmp? 15:38:01 tcr? 15:38:07 ;-) 15:38:12 working on that! :P 15:38:16 pinterface1 [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:24 kami-: why would you need that? just start the application with the old schema and it'll run the alter table's as needed... 15:38:26 jmc? 15:38:52 dwave [n=ask@084202075008.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 15:39:14 attila_lendvai: right. didn't think about that. 15:40:06 kami-: just make sure you run it first time with a debugger, because it'll bring up cerror's for potentially unsafe alters 15:40:17 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:40:20 -!- pinterface1 is now known as pinterface 15:40:50 gigamonkey: my adviser, Eugene Charniak, was at the AI Lab early enough to be a TWO-letter hacker.... 15:41:17 Wow. Sort of like AT&T on the stock market. 15:41:24 Except they were one letter, right? 15:41:36 borsman_ [n=quassel@cpe-76-177-217-216.natcky.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:41:56 Actually I was trying to think of folks that the "average geek" would recognize. Some of these might be a bit obscure outside the Lisp world. 15:42:45 kmp 15:43:03 -!- borsman [n=quassel@76.177.217.216] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:43:06 is #| and |# for muli-line comments? 15:43:10 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:10 what was dave moon's its login? 15:43:29 leo2007: better use #|| ||# it works better with emacs' fontification iirc 15:43:39 Hmmm. I wonder what system esr got his username on? 15:43:46 -!- jmbr_ is now known as jmbr 15:43:50 dmr 15:44:04 tcr: i was just about to ask the font locking problem with #| 15:44:13 -!- aerique [n=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has left #lisp 15:44:27 attila_lendvai: and I can use export- and import-persistent-instances to move e.g. from development to production 15:44:43 lichtblau: yup. 15:44:59 -!- Numlock is now known as PissedNumlock 15:45:04 I guess knr is cheating 15:45:04 I hesitate to mention it in these circles but these days dhh is probably one. 15:45:29 blasphemy! 15:45:59 kami-: dunno. i try to avoid any form of data migration if possible. i instead record a repl history that i do on the development install and redo it on the live system when i believe it's ok... and stuff like that as long as real data migration is avoidable.. 15:46:08 Though, sadly, dmr fails my test--if you google 'dmr' he doesn't come up in the first page of results. 15:46:32 jwz and dhh both manage to be the #1 result and esr and rms are at least on the page. 15:46:37 tcr: #|| works better but still problematic 15:47:04 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmr works, isn't that famous enough? 15:47:16 did guy steele ever have a three letter id? 15:47:22 quux? 15:47:30 Fade: GLS, afaik 15:47:45 attila_lendvai: this is also feasible for me. I'll try that. Thanks. 15:47:59 all the three letter guys I can think of have lisp tie-ins. 15:48:11 lichtblau: good point. By that measure dmr beats out dhh and esr 15:48:22 leo2007: That's why #| |# is rarely used. Better use C-SPC C-SPC M-x comment-region 15:48:24 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:48:54 Ritchis is less know by DMR than the other ones, probably because the other ones do use publicly their three-letter name, where dmr doesn't 15:49:09 dmr is mainly from his email address 15:49:52 Fade: Does ESR have lisp tie-ins? 15:50:05 sellout: Some 15:50:06 well, he has the big quote about learning lisp 15:50:29 -!- mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e0ba97d7a9b1966c] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 15:50:33 ESR is multipurpose! 15:50:54 (he also has a terrifying short-book-length tutorial on sex) 15:50:58 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:51:01 LOL 15:51:10 *Fade* laughs 15:51:12 *p_l* prefers ESR from RMS, though 15:51:25 rsynnott: taoup? 15:52:07 LISP is worth learning for a different reason — the profound enlightenment experience you will have when you finally get it. That experience will make you a better programmer for the rest of your days, even if you never actually use LISP itself a lot. 15:52:35 stassats: no, this horror: http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/sextips/ 15:52:46 taoup was enjoyable book and quite enlightening, i guess 15:52:52 now that's an url I have no intention of loading. 15:53:06 klausi [n=klausi@port-92-193-72-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:53:21 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-24-222-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:23 it's #lisp'ed 15:53:50 (it's roughly the anti-matter version of that old doc on how to not scare women away from computers 15:55:20 hi 15:55:40 gigamonkey: dtc 15:55:54 i'm interested in natural language proccesing, statistics and poetry analizing 15:55:57 well, famous in selected lisp circles :) 15:56:20 most of my work involves word frequency, relantionship, semantics or bayesian filters and the like 15:56:43 and i need to plot graphs with the results or typeset them to TeX 15:56:55 i work on win32, what lisp implementation would suit me? 15:57:31 judging by the win32 commentary of the past few weeks, I think the commercial lisps are generally recommended. 15:57:40 although sbcl does run on windows. 15:57:55 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 15:58:20 milanj [n=milan@79.101.197.5] has joined #lisp 15:58:27 i could afford a commercial lisp or scheme if its needed 15:58:30 CCL on win32 isn't that bad these days. 15:58:49 I use ccl on osx, and I"m pretty happy with it. 15:59:16 cel: http://www.clozure.com/clozurecl.html 15:59:17 clisp also works fine on windows 15:59:23 if you can put up with its deficiencies 15:59:27 thanks a lot Fade 15:59:33 and rsynnott :) 15:59:42 In particular, CCL/win32 has threads (unlike SBCL/win32). 15:59:57 lichtblau: Do you use a named readtable defined via DEFREADTABLE in the same source file as the defreadtable form? 16:00:07 tcr: no 16:00:25 do they have any reasonably good environment or editor to work with? 16:00:36 lichtblau: Good, I'll remove the :compile-toplevel from its EVAL-WHEN. So you do not need to wrap your reader macro functions in EVAL-WHEN anymore. 16:00:39 ccl works well with emacs/slime 16:01:05 clisp works with emacs/slime as well, but clisp isn't generally preferred. 16:01:22 lichtblau: And named-readtables do not currently work with allegro's modern mode. (or it does work, but the slime magic does not.) 16:01:25 alegro and lispworks have their own IDE systems. 16:01:44 gigamonkey` [n=user@adsl-99-24-222-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:19 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-216-144.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:02:23 -!- gigamonkey` is now known as gigamonkey 16:02:51 gigamonkey: why are you enumerating three letter hackers? 16:03:40 I'm writing the introductions for Coders at Work. I wanted to say something about how jwz is one of the few, the proud, the elite three-letter-hackers. 16:03:56 What would be a simple canonical way of creating a one-dimensional n-element array filled with a given value? 16:04:05 well, he definitely is in lisp circles. 16:04:17 outside lisp circles he's probably not known at all. 16:04:39 antoszka: (make-array n :initial-element given-value) 16:04:41 nvm 16:05:09 Nah, jwz is pretty famous outside the Lisp world. XEmacs, Netscape. The quote about regular expressions. 16:05:22 "... now you have two problems" 16:05:23 ? 16:05:26 That's the one. 16:05:32 that's a good quip. 16:05:47 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:56 interesting, i wonder what's wrong with google. it's being slow as hell for me 16:06:01 i always lump emacsen with lisp 16:06:06 fsvo lump 16:06:18 *pinterface* agrees with gigamonkey. I knew of jwz long before I went near the Lisp world. 16:06:20 guaqua: routing breakage, it might be 16:06:22 KalifG [n=user@mdwyer-mac.tamu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:06:23 matimago: thanks. 16:06:39 p_l: something global, i hear...it's not only here 16:07:03 big parts of Poland have problem accessing Google networks, I heard 16:07:26 yeah 16:07:46 other sites are suffering due to the use of google analytics and the javascript download apis 16:08:08 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-83-84.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 16:08:19 it's fine here 16:08:33 a few people have mentioned it being bad in eastern europe, though, yep 16:08:40 It 16:08:48 It's bad here in Texas, USA 16:08:48 my experience is from finland 16:08:49 (it's really surprising that Google doesn't have more trouble than it does) 16:10:22 it seems like they have global-scale problems for few days now 16:11:15 rstandy [n=rastandy@host89-142-static.5-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:11:29 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:43 HG` [n=wells@xdslfd103.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:12:16 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:54 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:13:28 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-155-65.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:13:39 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 16:14:11 Hmm, can't say I've noticed any problems lately. 16:15:01 hmmm, a puzzle: linux 32bit, and linux 64bit. the same sbcl (compiled from source), the same slime. 64bit has no REPL 16:15:09 maybe this is the predicted collapse of interwebs, then 16:15:10 I just got this query from a professor who's using PCL as a text book. "The student who is writing the fractal package needs to interface Lisp to a graphics package. Do you have any recommendations? Is there such a package that would be easy to install and use with Fedora 7?" Any ideas what I should tell him? 16:15:12 what should I check, pls? 16:15:31 puchacz: no repl when sbcl is launched directly? 16:16:05 gigamonkey: any idea what sort of graphics package? 16:16:10 (charting? CAD? etc) 16:16:34 rsynnot: I have inferior-lisp, not sure what to expect, I never use slime in this mode. 16:16:54 .emacs broadly the same? 16:17:06 the current slime has something funny you need to do to get the repl, I hear 16:17:15 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:17:24 rsynnot: .emacs identical, paths should be the smae. I have no autocompletions when M-x slime-repl whatever 16:17:32 looks like this part is not started at all 16:17:47 identical slime? 16:17:56 yes. 2009-05-01 16:18:00 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:18:04 anyway, (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) 16:18:12 gigamonkey: sounds like he wants a common-lisp interface to gl 16:18:24 I have: (slime-setup '(slime-repl slime-fancy slime-asdf slime-tramp)) 16:18:26 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 16:18:36 Fade: whoa, I would play with it, too 16:18:50 sorry, I meant opengl 16:19:05 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-opengl/ 16:19:13 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D898.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:19:31 Fade: ok, cheers 16:20:09 Fade: is that the currently recommended opengl thingy? 16:20:13 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:20:16 Why is sbcl.core so big ? Is there a way to get a map its content anyhow ? % for each package, for example ? 16:20:22 no idea. it's the only one I've looked at personally. 16:20:29 gfx programming isn't a big thing for me. 16:20:36 is it nice? 16:20:37 gigamonkey: Is that Alexander Repenning? If not you point to him, he's doing the same. 16:21:05 Nope. Good idea. 16:21:17 it's sort of a standard system using cffi to interface to the underlying libs. 16:21:25 seems like it's okay. 16:21:37 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D898.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:39 you can make the standard gl tea pot with it. ;) 16:21:42 kuwabara: There is an interface to walk all objects, but I think you may have a conceptual error regarding packages. 16:22:04 ejs [n=eugen@107-118-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:07 Fade: so you've actually used cl-opegl a bit? 16:22:33 I was just screwing around, and didn't get further than that one package. 16:23:02 depending on his use, maybe sdl would be better for him. 16:23:52 emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:24:28 http://www.cliki.net/OpenGL Bindings 16:25:06 "Graphics package" could mean "widget toolkit" rather than just "library to paint stuff". 16:25:21 true 16:25:26 lichtblau: in this case, since the kids wants to do "fractals" I think it's the latter. 16:25:33 Zhivago: right, it's a shortcut to say that a function belongs to a package. I think you understood my point anyway, didn't you. 16:25:46 Right, but perhaps he wants fancy buttons next to his fractal? 16:26:01 can someone please give me a link to a page/article that explains what is great about CL? I have a programmer friend that I would like to turn on to the language and it would be nice to have him read something 16:26:35 kuwabara: Functions don't belong to packages :) 16:27:00 Zhivago: I *do* agree 16:27:22 emacsphan: I don't know how to say it any better than this: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 16:27:31 cl-opengl isn't terribly 'lispy', but maybe it's fine. point him to the cliki page I just linked. 16:27:49 emacsphan: Perhaps start with http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/introduction-why-lisp.html 16:27:54 minion: features of common lisp? 16:27:54 features of common lisp: Features of Common Lisp, a one-page summary of what makes Common Lisp unique: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp 16:28:21 also, paul graham makes a pretty good evangel for CL in one of his essays. 16:29:01 minion is wrong about the URL: Hmm, abhishek.geek.nz isn't loading right now. 16:29:06 Fade: Except when he's bashing it because he prefers Scheme. 16:29:13 well, yes 16:29:25 herr graham is a curious case. ;) 16:29:34 gigamonkey: I will definitely send him the link to your book, the link to the Why lisp? chapter is a good start I think, thanks 16:29:50 minion: hmm, can't seem to open that link 16:29:50 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 16:30:06 forgot minion is the bot 16:30:19 minion's link is definitely dead. 16:30:21 myself, I don't know what I would prefer if I had spent enough time on Scheme. 16:30:29 -!- dwave [n=ask@084202075008.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 16:30:38 http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:5FBr45yvNPIJ:abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp 16:30:54 that one works 16:30:58 stassats: thanks! 16:31:09 *nikodemus* is amused by various totally different responses to the "two pass macros" query on sbcl-help 16:31:11 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78.59.166.221] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:31:59 you could probably actually get away with making a bitmap and using cl-gd to save it, for fractals 16:32:24 unless you wanted to zoom in on the fractal. 16:32:35 you could make a web interface! :) 16:32:40 hah 16:33:42 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:38 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-168-132-106.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 16:35:46 it's the latest thing! 16:35:49 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:35 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:37:57 That Features of Common Lisp link is great, thanks 16:39:22 are there any shortcuts to becomming a really good cl programmer? 16:39:34 emacsphan: There's no royal road to programming 16:39:50 oh well 16:40:03 maybe the answer to my questions is, use the REPL 16:40:03 becoming a master programming takes as much time as it takes to master something else 16:40:16 at programming, that is 16:40:28 bring your logic, and throw away all your syntactic crutches. 16:40:37 apply five years 16:40:43 instant journeyman. 16:40:52 five sounds a bit low 16:41:00 Fade: what would be an example of a syntactic crutch? 16:41:16 10 years to expert, 5 years to competence! 16:41:35 I'm about a year into programming, in general, and I already feel the smugness permeating me. 16:41:36 sykopomp: that was my estimate, more or less 16:41:37 hmm... I know a logic crutch - the notion that OO means stuff like Object.method() :) 16:41:59 emacsphan: any place your thinking about systems is pinned to the ground by algol style syntax from languages like C and Java and Ruby and Python. 16:42:10 p_l: but it does! you just get rid of the dot and use the first argument :) 16:42:25 it's probably a bigger issue to escape the notion that OO means classes act like modules. 16:43:02 Fade: if one doesn't have a background in those languages then it wouldn't be a problem, unfortunately I do :( I guess most people do 16:43:20 I did java and python before lisp 16:43:21 you'll have a lot of predisposition to overcome. 16:43:27 and I had no real issues. 16:43:28 :\ 16:43:30 most of us did. 16:43:42 then again, it wasn't a very long exposure, and lisp is really the language I've learned to program with. 16:43:48 some of us are beautiful and unique snowflakes, like sykopomp 16:43:50 :) 16:43:51 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 16:44:02 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:44:03 BUT I haven't programmed at all for, gosh about 10 years or so, so I forgot a lot of C syntax and such 16:44:13 I am a unique snowflake. I seem to be one of the few people who only really know how to program in CL 16:44:30 as opposed to having had a long, dreadful path with other languages and eventually ending up here <_< 16:44:44 sykopomp: was it your first language?! 16:45:05 that's indeed rare. 16:45:12 rsynnott: pretty much. I poked at python in an intro to programming class, but that was very basic scripts (I don't even know how to split sequences in it) 16:45:36 and I had a short, unfortunate run-in with java where someone tried to teach me the syntax, and how to write a queue in it, but that failed horribly. 16:45:41 I went straight to lisp after that. 16:45:48 -!- bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:45:48 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@63.107.91.99] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:45:48 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-204-63-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:45:48 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:45:48 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:46:16 but I'd poked at lisp while messing with other languages, too. I consider it my first one because it's the first one I became even remotely fluent in. 16:46:33 *sykopomp* doesn't even know scheme. 16:47:13 does CL habve any major drawbacks? 16:47:20 yes 16:47:21 Lots. 16:47:25 it is stigmatised 16:47:27 bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has joined #lisp 16:47:31 my first language was pascal 16:47:31 I'm sure this has left some form of scars :) 16:47:32 which is a massive drawback. 16:47:34 Fade: interesting answer 16:47:57 it has a lot of very major drawbacks, but whether they affect you depends on your taste, and what application you're working on. 16:48:06 tl;dl: if the drawback will affect you, you'll figure it out. 16:48:32 i've been discounting contract bids if the client allows lisp implementation for over a year, and to date, it hasn't influenced the decision to go with something else. 16:48:36 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-83-84.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:45 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:48:51 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-129-62.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:49:01 if you're just curious, there's plenty of discussion and speculation from "experts" all over the internet about "what's wrong with cl?". I'd rather not talk about it here. 16:49:18 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:49:27 Fade: not surprised 16:49:33 it's really a horrible option for companies 16:49:34 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:49:40 because they can't get the people 16:49:41 sykopomp: just curious, thanks 16:49:46 I'll do this for 30% less money if you let me do it in lisp. 16:49:49 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:50 anyone knows where .emacs file is on Win32 when you install emacs? 16:50:00 oh, tht's fine. Use ${LANG} instead! 16:50:11 cel: run cmd.exe, echo %HOME% 16:50:11 Fade: wanting to make sure others can hack on your code seems like a legitimate concern, actually. 16:50:48 well, that is true 16:50:53 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:55 puchacz : it just display "%HOME%" 16:51:04 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-612f050c0e91f4b1] has joined #lisp 16:51:16 and I've toyed with offering free support and bug fixes, but that hasn't affected the outcomes either. 16:51:19 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 16:51:33 hmmm, my REPL problems again. I added (require 'slime-repl) directly to my .emacs file, I have slime-repl-* functions now, but when I M-x slime-repl, it looks like if it was starting REPL buffer, but it does not work: "error in process filter: slime-dispatch-event: Invalid rpc: Thread not found: :REPL-THREAD" 16:51:36 something I wouldn't dare do, incidentally, with just about any other implementation language. 16:51:51 *Fade* shrugs 16:51:57 cel: then set it up in your System/Advanced/Environment variables (right click somewhere) 16:52:01 most of my projects these days are internal, so it's not a big issue. 16:52:11 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:52:43 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:53:43 sykopomp: the worst form of that however chanes into "make everything Java/VB/C#" 16:53:55 aye 16:53:59 puchacz: try getting rid of (require 'slime-repl), and replacing it with (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) 16:54:24 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.150.3] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:54:27 p_l: *shrug* what can you do, you know? :\ 16:54:30 i've never really been sure if that argument isn't "nobody will be able to work on it" but "lisp programmers are expensive" 16:54:39 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 16:54:40 saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 16:54:53 which is funny. I found lisp easier to learn than any other language I ran into. 16:54:56 including python 16:54:57 :| 16:55:12 lisp programmers are expensive, but you definitely don't need as many of them. 16:55:17 Fade: Maybe it's "We can't replace you with code monkeys from India" (No offense to Indian programmers, I mean the attitude of some companies) 16:55:19 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.150.3] has joined #lisp 16:55:22 I think that adds some level of legitimacy to the "lisp isn't hard" argument, but it's horribly unscientific ;D 16:55:24 dive into python was nice back in the day :) 16:55:33 p_l: that's definitely what's on their mind. 16:55:36 puchacz: When you manually load contribs, you have to require the contrib and then invoke (contrib-name-init) 16:56:05 Fade: lisp programmers are not expensive and they're not rare either. I mean, a good proportion of students have had at least an introduction in lisp. I'm starting to believe that the problem is more in the teaching: most lisp courses don't entice students to learn more about lisp and use it. 16:56:17 *pinterface* is fortunate enough to have clients who neither know nor care how stuff gets implemented, so long as it works. 16:56:34 *p_l* once put and advertisement for rather *local* IT services. The only response was from a company in India that certainly didn't notice that I can't outsource physical network building to them 16:56:42 pjb: I dunno about that aspect of the argument, because I got drafted into the prof world right out of highschool, many moons ago. 16:57:00 but it sounds plausible, particularly with the end of scheme at MIT. 16:57:06 tcr: I'll try it out 16:57:08 pjb: maybe scheme, but I don't know of many places that teach common lisp 16:57:09 r1nu- [n=debian@ppp-94-67-156-67.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:57:39 any good LISP compiler for windows? 16:57:58 several 16:58:04 Well, at this point, an introduction with scheme or CL is the same. If there was some interest, it'd be easy to have programmers work in these languages. In any case, it in general easy to have programmers learn new languages. 16:58:12 the only guy I know who ran into common lisp in uni ran into it in an 'intro to programming languages' course, where the main thing that was taught was how recursion and the cadiddedadediudedadedr work. 16:58:27 r1nu-: CCL and clisp are both good choices 16:58:28 beach is pushing CL at bordeaux 16:58:33 which is v.cool. 16:58:34 elias` [n=me@resnet-pat-254.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:58:38 CCL has native threads, I *think* 16:58:51 SBCL runs quite nicely, too, but I hear it has general stability issues on SBCL 16:58:57 the same might be true for CCL, I don't know 16:59:00 sykopomp: you have work on them? i want a standard compiler for good work.. 16:59:03 clozure threads on windows. 16:59:10 so I thought. 16:59:31 r1nu-: there's not really 'one standard compiler'. It really depends on what you're doing. 16:59:34 sykopomp: exactly. They use lisp only to teach what is not in the other programming languages. Recursion and list processing. 17:00:06 r1nu-: what do you want to do? run existing programs? write new programs? what kind of programs? 17:00:12 sykopomp: if lisp (CL or scheme) was used in uni as a normal, application and system programming language, the situation would soon become better. 17:00:13 rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-175-202-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:00:18 pjb: cadidedidedadediders are not 'list processing', they're the kind of functions you run into at 'silly functions only' party. 17:01:01 pjb: Scheme was widely used in the US as a teaching language, but it's been rapidly losing ground. MIT itself just replaced 6.001 with a python course, for example. 17:01:11 kpreid: write new programms for work..like ARI programms. 17:01:35 if these languages were so popular as a teaching medium, why so many professional programmers does not consider using them? 17:01:45 I've found clozure to be very stable on the systems where I use it. 17:01:50 mostly where sbcl doesn't thread. 17:02:07 you'd be surprised as to how many companies actually use scheme and common lisp out there. 17:02:12 on windows, with native threads, there's ECL anc CCL, afaik 17:02:13 puchacz: every language is good for what the designer wanting to do.. 17:02:26 puchacz: the problem is that in most places, they're not taught well. Students even those archieving good grades on the "lisp" course, don't think highly of it. 17:02:36 r1nu-: not necessarily, there are language designers who don't know what they're doing :) 17:02:41 one problem, like fade mentioned, is the stigma, so no one likes to mention it. Also, C#/Java/Scripting-langs are the hot topic these days, so anything else seems silly and pointless. 17:02:51 kpreid: like Matz? 17:02:53 there's also Jess and languages based on similar to it syntax, which, while written in Java, is very lispy from outside view (I'll have a course on that in 3rd year) 17:02:56 (zing) 17:02:57 -!- ejs [n=eugen@107-118-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:02:58 r1nu-: anyway, I would recommend trying CCL, SBCL, and possibly CLISP 17:03:03 kpreid: sure..so change the word designer with programmer. 17:03:06 -!- lichtblau [n=user@wallstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [No route to host] 17:03:09 *rsynnott* doesn't hear much of C# these days 17:03:13 kpreid: thank's a lot.. 17:03:35 rsynnott: it's really popular in some circles, and it seems to be sneaking its way into GNOME. 17:03:39 sykopomp: Matz I think never thought Ruby will make it like that 17:03:41 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.150.3] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:03:45 C# is IMHO better than Java :P 17:04:03 r1nu-: http://ccl.clozure.com/ http://www.sbcl.org/ http://clisp.cons.org/ 17:04:05 p_l: sure..because its a good copy paste of java + c++ 17:04:08 p_l: I think the distinction is so small, it's not even worth mentioning :P 17:04:09 i think the relicensing of java has taken a lot of steam out of c#'s sails, to massively mix metaphors for comedic effect. 17:04:14 sykopomp: indeed I would be surprised if I find out that CL and Scheme are used. www.jobserve.com -> no hits 17:04:28 p_l: it has some features that java missed, so yes... it is the logical successor 17:04:29 hell, since clojure, I'm not even that antagonistic to java anymore. 17:04:30 puchacz: yup. 17:04:40 C# is basically a Java revision without backwards compatibility and extra MS flavor 17:04:45 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.150.3] has joined #lisp 17:04:51 and IMHO better runtime organisation :D 17:04:51 exactly.. 17:04:54 and single-platform, for practical purposes 17:05:04 sykopomp: but you said they are used out there :-) 17:05:14 in my country C# and php have money! :( 17:05:20 kpreid: and lambda expressions. 17:05:35 *rsynnott* has never met a C# programmer 17:05:43 puchacz: I also said that the fact is not advertised. 17:05:48 though it seems to have regional popularity in some places 17:05:49 rsynnott: come to greece to met a thousands :D 17:05:50 well, C# itself isn't that much single platform, but some of the newest stuff and libraries is 17:05:54 i'm always surprised when i run into win32 folks in lisp circles.. 17:06:01 although they exist! 17:06:27 *p_l* hopes .NET finally kills off most of native win32 code 17:06:28 it would be nice for lisp to have nicer open source win32 support. CCL seems to be doing a great job at it. 17:06:37 p_l: that hasn't been going well 17:06:43 (incf sykopomp) 17:06:52 it seems to be occupying more or less the same niche as java, but on a smaller scale 17:07:10 and on that note, I go back to the editor. 17:07:22 they're vaguely trying to push it on the xbox, but that isn't working out, and the future of the Xbox is uncertain, anyway 17:07:32 do you know if matlisp is still maintained? 17:07:37 rsynnott: Well, it's on MS' agenda. And I wouldn't be surprised if MS doesn't intend to use "abandoning native code" to execute a similar thing to what IBM did on AS/400 17:07:42 rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 17:07:43 leo2007: no, but MatzLisp is! 17:07:46 (badum-tsh!) 17:08:11 solved REPL problem: (require 'slime-repl) and (slime-repl-init). thanks for hints. it's been a weird problem 17:08:17 p_l: well, it used to be, certainly; originally 'longhorn' was meant to be largely managed 17:08:48 however, it didn't happen in Vista, Win7 is apparently little more than Vista SP2, and they're being quiet about anything further into the future 17:08:56 sykopomp: if there are CL users out there among companies, how to find out what they are? 17:09:20 *rsynnott* suspects that they will be focussing more on re-securing their desktop monopoly than anything else for the next few years 17:09:30 puchacz: apparantly many companies don't talk about it... 17:09:44 rsynnott: many APIs are not really accessible outside of .net 17:09:54 puchacz: you hang out in the right places... ;) 17:10:21 (which isn't looking good for them; HP has forced them to allow unlimited XP distribution until at least the end of 2010) 17:10:40 puchacz: and you know the secret handshake 17:11:11 lisp has fallen into that weird twilight of being a competitive advantage for the companies that use it. 17:11:26 gigamonk`: what's that... (too) many parenthesis (wherever they (don't) belong?) 17:11:31 gigamonk`: YooHoo, YooHoo/2U2? 17:11:32 the only place I can think of that advertises their lisp use is ITA, and that seems mostly through their HR dept. 17:11:43 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:04 Fade: there is a dutch company that was looking for lispers... I suppose they use lisp 17:12:17 or the people who work at ITA and hang around here (: 17:12:24 some of the older AI deployments run on Lisp or Lisp-based languages 17:12:28 Fare and others (: 17:12:39 the bulk of lisp users that advertise it seem to be companies/teams that used it for prototyping and switched to a different language when things grew. 17:12:56 "lisp experience" is HR code for "programmer wanted, must not suck." 17:13:50 heh 17:14:06 like all four letter words, lisp has a lot of semantic and morphological utility. ;) 17:14:07 (PG, reddit, naughty dog being the big ones) 17:14:08 there was mention here a while ago of a French nuclear plant using it for process planning 17:14:15 it's often peculiar things like that 17:14:32 I heard some financial market institutions (not all and not everywhere) use Lisp, OCaml or Haskell 17:14:52 I believe Vendetta Online also used lisp as its server implementation language, and I think they ended up switching to erlang, although they kept lisp as a compiler for all the helpful languages they wrote (compiling their languages to erlang) 17:15:26 p_l: financial market institutions are even worse. There, you'll probably find things more along the lines of straight-up assembly, or dedicated custom-built state machines. 17:15:31 or COBOL, 17:15:56 COBOL is in records management systems, usually - I was thinking of planning and analysis areas 17:16:10 sykopomp: Depends on the company and on what part of the company you're working in. 17:16:37 Guest51399: yeah 17:16:50 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:16:55 No one on the trading desks uses Cobol. 17:16:59 of course, financial ANYTHING is not exactly where you want to be working right now 17:17:09 ho ho 17:17:28 rsynnott: unless you are consultant experienced in integration. Then it's the best place you can be, due to all mergers :P 17:17:45 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:19:08 On the subject of handling units of measure in LISP, i found this paper: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1039994 17:20:04 Full text without login: http://www.isi.edu/isd/LOOM/documentation/measures-implementation.text 17:20:16 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:21:44 rjack: thanks. 17:22:00 rsynnott: financial ANYTHING is still good :-) 17:22:21 but 100% Java, C++ and C# 17:25:52 There's also the (probably rusty) measures library: ftp://ftp.cs.cmu.edu/user/ai/lang/lisp/code/syntax/measures/ 17:26:11 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:35 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:26:57 beach: Here? 17:27:31 aiee, why the hell does make-array have to have so many keywords 17:28:03 nikodemus: are you morphed into RMS? 17:29:26 not quite -- just trying to rewrite the transforms for it 17:30:06 do you know of a guide to install matlisp with vecLib on os x? 17:30:15 it would be *so* much easier if it was split into a couple of functions instead 17:30:39 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@host89-142-static.5-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:30:53 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [] 17:32:01 not only a couple functions: a couple different *types* 17:33:03 bhyde pasted "frustrated attempting to add common-lisp.net svn project to clbuild" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80227 17:33:20 tombom_ [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 17:36:39 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:36:40 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.150.3] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:37:20 bhyde annotated #80227 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80227#1 17:38:35 Any McCLIM hacker here? I need an object with lots of slots, and a long inheritance chain 17:38:37 well, that too 17:39:08 -!- tombom_ [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 17:39:43 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:39:59 Jabberwockey [n=jens@82.113.121.156] has joined #lisp 17:40:13 pinterface annotated #80227 "try this" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80227#2 17:42:01 pinterface: nice, thanks! 17:44:35 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-129-62.netcologne.de] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 17:47:20 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslfd103.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:50:29 bhyde annotated #80227 "pinterface is my hero!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80227#3 17:51:33 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 17:51:44 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:57:19 *pinterface* dons a cape, and spandex suit with a giant 'P' blazoned on the chest, then strikes a heroic pose. 18:00:36 i mean: there are practically speaking 4 different modes of initialization in MAKE-ARRAY: by filling, by leaving empty, by copying from a vector (for vectors only), and by destructuing the arguments to a nested call to LIST/VECTOR 18:00:42 aieee 18:05:47 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 18:07:17 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:07:34 auclairb [n=auclairb@206.167.180.43] has joined #lisp 18:07:40 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:16 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 18:08:17 bhyde annotated #80227 "N(testing frameworks) > N(scm)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80227#4 18:08:40 nikodemus: that's what design-by-committee will get you :) 18:11:00 I am trying to make a API document of my lisp package. Is there a easy way to get a name and doc string of functions and macros? 18:11:31 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:12:47 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:58 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@206.167.180.43] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:13:27 adrianheilbut [n=adrianhe@c-66-30-12-0.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:21 auclairb [n=auclairb@206.167.180.43] has joined #lisp 18:15:26 tomoyuki28jp: tinaa produces javadoc-like documentation using docstrings. In-REPL, there's clhs documentation 18:15:36 clhs documentation 18:15:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm 18:18:32 pinterface: thanks! 18:18:38 minion: Documentation Tool 18:18:38 Documentation Tool: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/Documentation%20Tool 18:19:08 heh... anyway, that cliki page points to a few others. 18:19:23 pinterface: looks good, thanks! 18:20:31 happy to help 18:20:52 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@82.113.121.156] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:21:47 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-166.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:23:01 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:24:54 moradan [n=moradan@77.120.17.78] has joined #lisp 18:27:54 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@206.167.180.43] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:28:21 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:28:38 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 18:28:52 -!- adrianheilbut [n=adrianhe@c-66-30-12-0.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:29:01 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 18:31:14 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:32:19 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-194-183.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:32:42 tomoyuki28jp: i've been partial to http://www.weitz.de/documentation-template/ lately. 18:32:57 that #u reader macro somewhere in scrollback was a crime against lisp 18:33:10 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-204-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:33:37 drewc: I am just trying that one right now. It's really easy to use. 18:35:44 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@23.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:35:52 hefner: agreed! 18:41:44 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:42:04 -!- klausi [n=klausi@port-92-193-72-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:45:50 luskwater [n=luskwate@mail2.actslife.org] has joined #lisp 18:48:25 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:32 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 18:48:44 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy 18:51:04 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 18:52:44 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:53:24 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:57:42 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:57:57 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 18:58:18 -!- rpg [n=rpg@75-146-46-193-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:01:17 -!- cel [n=cel@121.Red-79-151-50.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 19:02:03 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:02:28 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:46 mjf [n=mjf@r3a98.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 19:04:22 celeste [n=cel@121.Red-79-151-50.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:53 -!- celeste is now known as cel 19:05:52 -!- emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:08:01 kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:49 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:09:31 rpg [n=rpg@173-8-98-161-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:30 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-40-192.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 19:12:11 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:12:55 ejs [n=eugen@211-175-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:33 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 19:13:40 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@94-224-246-148.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 19:20:48 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 19:21:30 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-0-140.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:22:06 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 19:23:38 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-179-119.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 19:24:16 -!- borsman_ [n=quassel@cpe-76-177-217-216.natcky.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:24:28 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181140099.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:25:01 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 19:29:30 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:31:11 -!- white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:34:23 is it possible to force defpackage and in-package to be evaluated only during loading and not during compiling? 19:34:41 DeusExPikachu: that's a strange thing to want. 19:34:50 I know.... 19:35:06 I think the answer is, no. Why do you want to? 19:35:09 but my custom package loading software won't work unless this is possible 19:35:31 if I make my software only use load instead of compile-file it works though 19:36:27 If DEFPACKAGE and IN-PACKAGE aren't evaluated at compile time then the code so compiled won't refer to symbols in those packages. 19:36:28 I'm trying to make package loading more python like in terms of simplicity, there seems to be redundant information in writing in-packages, dependencies in defpackages, and then again in the asdf file 19:36:52 yeah, I knew it'd be fundamental like that... :( 19:37:15 Well, you can always write your own DEP:LOAD and DEP:COMPILE-FILE that do whatever you want. 19:37:48 But you're then heading down the path toward defining your own Lisp dialect. 19:38:17 Which isn't the worst thing in the world to do. And bootstrapping from Common Lisp is definitely a good way to do it, if one is inclined that way. 19:38:19 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-16-238.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Success] 19:39:08 DeusExPikachu: it's redundant because packages and systems are separate things, although I'm sure you understand that point. 19:39:46 yeah I guess I'm trying to make them more uniform for simple cases 19:43:35 jollygood [n=jollygoo@12.30.25.226] has joined #lisp 19:43:58 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:43:59 DeusExPikachu: Sounds like your package loading software is broken then 19:44:16 i'm writing it myself, I know its broken in that respect 19:45:31 however, besides performance benefits, there shouldn't be any difference between compile-file+load, and just load right? 19:46:01 actually, I think the main motivation was usage with slime, slime compiles and loads sections of code.... 19:46:03 klausi [n=klausi@port-92-193-72-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:46:15 damn.... 19:46:36 no, compile-file and load can be different 19:46:47 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 19:46:51 (in semantics) 19:46:51 because of eval-when? 19:46:53 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-45.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 19:47:12 And macroexpansion. 19:47:55 clhs 3.1 19:47:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_a.htm 19:48:13 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-45.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 19:48:18 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@adsl-89-132-3-172.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 19:49:00 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:52 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-6-30.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:51:00 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:51:38 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-234-19.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 19:51:51 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:37 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:54:05 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:55:00 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:55:40 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 19:55:44 dwave [n=ask@084202075008.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 19:55:50 borsman [n=quassel@cpe-76-177-217-216.natcky.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:58:31 jao [n=jao@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:56 semyon421 [n=semyon@217.67.122.44] has joined #lisp 20:01:33 -!- jao [n=jao@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:06:44 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 20:08:29 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:08:35 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:09:00 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@94-224-246-148.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 20:11:03 -!- dwave [n=ask@084202075008.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [] 20:11:03 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:11:16 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 20:15:24 LinkFly [n=linkfly@62.140.233.32] has joined #lisp 20:16:24 jao [n=jao@152.Red-83-39-134.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:52 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:53 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-222-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:19:02 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-24-222-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:19:03 hi people! Please go http://62.140.233.32/ 20:19:18 please die in a wreck 20:19:59 i am run hunchentoot 20:20:05 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:20:12 please tell me what to see 20:21:13 *please tell me what to see 20:21:22 *please tell me what you see 20:22:42 -!- moradan [n=moradan@77.120.17.78] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:22:46 <_3b> looks like a hunchentoot default page 20:22:59 thank you! 20:23:17 MrSpec_ [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 20:23:33 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:25:21 -!- ejs [n=eugen@211-175-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:26:51 tcr: aroundp? 20:27:58 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:28:08 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:28:14 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 20:29:48 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-83-84.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:34:36 rpg: yes 20:36:10 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-69-148-16-89.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:24 <_3b> tcr: seems harder to break the highlighting now, 2nd test case still breaks with paredit off though :/ 20:37:49 <_3b> tcr: also various combinations of #+nil and forms on the same line tend to highlight oddly 20:38:22 _3b: You're on HEAD, right? 20:38:32 <_3b> tcr i should be, let me try again 20:39:34 <_3b> yeah, looks like it 20:39:35 Your 2nd test case doesn't fail for me anymore 20:39:52 <_3b> are you using paredit or otherwise typing both parens at once? 20:40:02 Yes I am 20:40:15 I however just could it make fail without using paredit 20:40:16 <_3b> just typing the opening ( was enough to trigger it that time 20:40:27 Right 20:40:28 Sigh 20:40:40 <_3b> right, it seems more stable with paredit 20:40:55 tcr: I'm sorry --- I was hoping to chat about a slime question, but turns out I must dash. I'll try to catch you later or tomorrow. Sorry to bother you. 20:40:58 <_3b> or rather with balanced parens 20:41:10 rpg: No problem 20:41:15 -!- rpg [n=rpg@173-8-98-161-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 20:42:55 tombom_ [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 20:43:31 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@12.30.25.226] has quit [] 20:45:44 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:46:04 ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 20:47:08 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-160-53.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:38 projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has joined #lisp 20:53:43 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-40-192.ucr.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:54:13 -!- semyon421 [n=semyon@217.67.122.44] has quit ["leaving"] 20:54:24 semyon421 [n=semyon@217.67.122.44] has joined #lisp 20:54:42 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-221-149.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:50 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:55:35 -!- jao [n=jao@152.Red-83-39-134.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:57:16 jao [n=jao@98.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:03 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.70.121] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:59:50 -!- s0ber_ [i=pie@114-45-227-97.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:59:55 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:59:56 -!- tombom_ is now known as tombom 21:00:05 jollygood [n=jollygoo@12.30.25.226] has joined #lisp 21:05:08 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-40-192.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 21:06:44 -!- Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:07:13 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 21:08:09 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:08:24 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 21:10:43 <_3b> if i have a background thread running, should (sb-sprof:with-profiling (:loop nil :threads :all) (sleep 10)) tell me where the background thread is spending time? 21:11:44 -!- LinkFly [n=linkfly@62.140.233.32] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:12:28 -!- andrew[andrboot] [n=andrew-f@unaffiliated/andrewandrboot/x-689432] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:13:53 <_3b> well, with-profiling with a :report option i mean 21:14:16 no 21:15:04 since the profiling only happens if *sampling* has been bound to T in the thread that gets the profiling signal 21:15:20 Okay, GLS is one of the easiest subjects to write a glowing intro for: dude did a little bit of everything. 21:15:28 and with-profiling binds it to T thread-locally 21:15:41 <_3b> ok, that makes sense 21:15:55 including, IIRC, early work in computer vision? 21:16:02 you can do (sb-sprof:start-sampling) to set it to T globally 21:16:08 p_l: really? Wouldn't suprise me. 21:16:30 any particular reason i can require sb-sprof in sbcl itself but not when i'm using slime? 21:16:40 I'm mostly impressed that someone could be involved in standardizing Common Lisp, Scheme, C, Fortran, and JavaScript. 21:16:48 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@12.30.25.226] has quit [] 21:17:13 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:17:17 <_3b> jsnell: ok, starting it by hand seems to work 21:17:18 you mean Java? 21:17:26 stassats: both. 21:17:53 He was on the ECMAScript standards body (at one point) and, as we all know, co-wrote the Java Language Specification. 21:18:54 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 21:18:55 gigamonkey: GLS? 21:19:00 Guy Steele 21:19:10 where does the L come from? 21:19:25 His parents? 21:19:29 "Lewis" 21:19:42 dysinger [n=tim@c-98-246-172-196.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:50 ahh, didn't know that part... and yes, from his parents (but that accounts for G and S too) 21:19:59 ... 21:20:03 gigamonkey: as in the gigamonkey site with the opensource book? 21:20:10 bulibuta: yes. 21:20:17 bulibuta: now bow! 21:20:32 I found some typos if you're interested 21:20:37 *bulibuta* bows 21:20:43 hehe 21:20:58 Email them to peter@gigamonkeys.com, please. 21:21:03 madnificent: there's one of you in every IRC channel, isnt't it? :-) 21:21:07 gigamonkey: sure 21:21:11 *gigamonkey* needs to organize his errata some day. 21:21:19 bulibuta: we're everywhere, where are you at? 21:22:11 -!- plutonas` is now known as plutonas 21:23:45 where am I at? as in location? 21:23:48 -!- MrSpec_ is now known as mrSpec 21:23:57 or as in what do I mean? 21:24:39 bulibuta: never mind 21:24:49 jmbr [n=jmbr@132.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:25:10 sure 21:26:25 gigamonkey: AFAIK he got to make computers "see" as a short-term project in grad school or something like that. You can guess the outcome, but IIRC his (future) wife was also somehow involved in that project... 21:26:28 -!- semyon421 [n=semyon@217.67.122.44] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:27:22 p_l: interesting. 21:28:39 I might be getting the wrong person, but I'm pretty sure it was GLS 21:29:16 [citation needed] ;-) 21:29:27 I think it slipped in as anecdote in some reading material for my course ;-) 21:29:30 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:30:07 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 21:31:36 -!- HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:32:40 (eql gigamonkey peter) => T ? 21:32:53 DeusExPikachu: T 21:33:02 they met over the construction of an evil android! How romantic! 21:33:03 for some bindings of peter 21:33:19 awesome, hehe 21:36:51 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-130.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 21:37:23 *gigamonkey* wishes Oracle had held off buying Sun until after Coders at Work came out. 21:38:01 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:04 *p_l* wishes Oracle didn't buy Sun 21:38:16 p_l: me 2... 21:38:27 i think about mysql now... 21:38:40 yeah. Apollo would be appalled, if they were still around. 21:39:03 Well, MySQL is the only thing I wouldn't mind seeing dead, but I really hope for this not to become new "Compaq buys DEC" story 21:39:08 but Sun done a good move because they dont have so much cash.. 21:39:12 r1nu-: oracle have owned the only useful part of mysql for years, anywa 21:39:18 (InnoDB) 21:39:43 *rsynnott* hopes they don't kill Rock; was rather looking forward to seeing how it did 21:39:49 rsynnott: i thought it about other things like now what about FREE? 21:39:57 tcr: that "group by class" example is really cool. also demonstrates mcclim's very heavy use of MI and mixins. :) 21:40:03 rsynnott: what's Rock? 21:40:10 rsynnott: you mean that hw STM system? 21:40:45 multithreaded processor with STM, yep 21:40:55 pitched as a competitor to Power6/7 21:41:07 or HTM, I suppose :) 21:41:09 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:41:10 Uh, if it's in the processor I don't ... 21:41:15 what I was about to say. 21:41:25 hefner: you don't want to know how I got hold that particular instance... 21:41:32 i spoke about freedom of the DB now... oracle will stop mysql and they will pass the oracle... 21:41:34 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-204-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:42:02 the numbers for the niagara processors were really quite amazing for certain applications 21:42:04 ofcourse oracle is more powerfull than mysql but its not free... 21:42:07 gigamonkey: the idea was to a) make a (possibly language agnostic) software library for STM 2) add more and more hw acceleration for it 21:42:08 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2D898.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:14 hefner: it's so evil I have to say it, I actually set the class-precedence-list slot of the builtin class to be 1, and then tried to open your clim method-browser 21:42:26 of the built class for fixnums 21:42:37 -!- jao [n=jao@98.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 21:42:38 r1nu-: oracle are unable to make mysql non-free 21:42:56 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:42:58 r1nu-: Personally I regard MySQL and Oracle as being on similar level of breakage&evilness. They just do that damage in different ways :P 21:43:00 rsynnott: why? 21:43:11 because it is licensed under the gpl 21:43:16 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43:18 p_l: i like postgre :D so ... :D hehehe 21:43:26 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:43:30 tcr: that's awful. you could've just done (make-application-frame ..) at the slime repl, ran the frame top level in a background thread, then inspected the frame object and navigated down to the menu or wherever 21:43:31 so anyone can just make modifications and release them, and there's very little oracle can do about it 21:43:33 rsynnott: yes but if they stop update it ..??? 21:43:42 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@132.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:43:42 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:43:42 -!- DrForr [n=drforr@eldwist.darkuncle.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:43:42 -!- Schmidt [i=lsc@c193-150-248-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:43:42 -!- Dazhbog [n=sampo@geek.fi] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:43:42 -!- hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.100] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:43:50 tcr: or ran the listener and inspected *standard-output* or *application-frame* or something 21:44:01 in any case, oracle has been voluntarily licensing innodb to MySQL AB for the last 10 years or so 21:44:06 *p_l* runs postgres since last run with MySQL proved near-disasterous in what might be called "critical section, run without interrupts" time of a project 21:44:22 *rsynnott* doesn't care for mysql 21:44:30 p_l: indeed...postgre is more powerfull.. 21:44:32 hefner: No clim user around, and I needed something to make a snapshot of. So the only way was to break some existing code, and grab something from the debugger :) 21:44:47 especially after some great fun with it randomly crashing and corrupting the entire InnoDB data store 21:44:54 r1nu-: postgres simply didn't cause breakage, including most obvious part - Encoding 21:44:55 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:44:57 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:07 jmbr [n=jmbr@132.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:45:07 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 21:45:07 Schmidt [i=lsc@c193-150-248-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:45:07 hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.100] has joined #lisp 21:45:07 Dazhbog [n=sampo@geek.fi] has joined #lisp 21:45:07 DrForr [n=drforr@eldwist.darkuncle.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:10 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:45:10 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-0-140.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:45:14 also, its approach to subqueries 21:45:15 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 21:45:20 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-0-140.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:45:21 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:45:23 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:50 (basically "Look! We have subqueries! What an amazing feature! Now, don't use them, for they will cause the query optimiser to do table scans for no good reason@ 21:46:03 Jeesh. I somehow never realized that Knuth published Vol I of TAOCP when he was 30. 21:46:17 that whole problem probably doesn't exist for US-based programmers, but when you suddenly have problems between MySQL 3.23, 4.0 and I think 4.1, all hell breaks loose on UTF8 21:46:20 did he ever finish vo. 4? 21:46:30 rsynnott: it's on its way. 21:46:30 He's working on it. 21:46:56 p_l: presumably even most US programmers have to deal with user input from foreigners or people with accents in their names 21:47:27 rsynnott: foreigners use accents, if you're Anglicized your name you don't 21:47:40 Knuth is currently updating 1-3 (thou I heard vol.4 is mostly done and is going to follow new edition ASAP) 21:47:45 most names are in some way Anglicized. 21:47:59 the problem is when you can't remove such data 21:48:03 s/you're/you've 21:48:20 (of course, most of the delightful world of web 2.0 has always ignored unicode; ruby and php, for instance, generally manage unicode by treating it as opaque utf-8 blobs) 21:48:21 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:48:36 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 21:48:47 dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 21:49:05 rsynnott: at least Merb and core Ruby team tried addressing this (I dunno about Rails - it worked well enough for me) 21:49:19 p_l: ruby 1.9 is unicode-aware 21:49:30 p_l: isn't Polish covered under 8-bits? 21:49:57 I thought it used entirely Roman orthography because of the Catholic influece 21:50:36 so why are packages and systems different? Is this because of installation differences? (literature pointers are appreciated) 21:50:56 Packages are just a namespacing mechanism. 21:51:03 accented roman, yes. (ISO-8859-2 is national standard, cheerfully broken by Windows). However, I had to accept possibility of other encodings (like someone is living abroad, married with foreigner and changed last name etc.) 21:51:13 Systems are for code-compiling/code-loading. 21:51:20 p_l: right. 21:51:43 Adamant: the funny thing is, that the database I gathered back then is to my knowledge left unused 21:52:43 my last talk concerning usage of the contest ended... badly 21:52:51 but in practice, specifically during initialization, those issues are usually solved together, right? 21:53:18 "those issues"? 21:53:29 defining namespace and compiling code 21:53:50 It seems to be you do not yet know enough about Lisp to try to fix it. 21:54:00 to me 21:54:08 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:54:12 true, but I've learned more about lisp trying to... hehe 21:56:02 DeusExPikachu: A package is a mapping between a string (symbol-name) and the corresponding symbol object. 21:56:59 and each symbol holds a reference to its package, too 21:57:00 tcr: the new sbcl extensions handle INST very nicely; thanks! 21:57:15 DeusExPikachu: you are right, however that there is a (loose) connection--packages do serve to define a kind of "interface" with an inside (unexported symbols) and an outside (exported symbols). 21:57:59 As such, a single package or collection of related packages can look like a "module" (something that doesn't exist in a defined way in CL) 21:58:21 And if you had a module, one of the things you'd like to be able to do with it is compile and load it. 21:58:29 right 21:58:50 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D898.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:59:05 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:49 r1nu-_ [n=debian@ppp-94-67-157-133.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:00:22 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:29 attila_lendvai__ [n=ati@adsl-89-132-5-39.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:01:10 -!- luskwater [n=luskwate@mail2.actslife.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:01:54 rvirding [n=rvirding@h59n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:02:20 Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:02:37 optikalmouse [n=user@bas1-toronto10-1279559024.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:02:43 excuse my ignorance, but what are a few major reasons against having tighter coupling? 22:02:59 Nobody has come up with a good solution. 22:03:09 oh 22:03:12 any users of trivial http? why does it return a list from #'http-get instead of using #'values for multiple return values? 22:03:23 You need something like packages just to deal with namespaces since symbols are first class objects in the language. 22:03:29 DeusExPikachu: Lisp's dynamic nature. 22:03:39 And it's hard to have something more like a module because of what tcr just said. 22:04:28 You could, however, imagine a system-system (i.e. a thing for finding, compiling, and loading code) that was based on directory hierachy's and conventions about package naming. 22:04:49 And It's not clear what you actually want, and what you actually have gripes with 22:05:08 Indeed. I was just going to suggest writing down your desiderata. 22:05:13 I can't seem to install foreign-numeric-vector 22:05:36 hmm do you want to see my code? I have it working for a simple case 22:05:38 leo2007 pasted "foreign-numeric-vector" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80248 22:05:52 Not, code. Requirements. 22:06:08 kk let me try to formalize it as best I can 22:06:26 jao [n=jao@85.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:28 -!- KalifG [n=user@mdwyer-mac.tamu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:07:35 -!- jophish [n=jophish@dial-80-47-3-226.access.uk.tiscali.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:08:14 can someone help with 80248? thanks. 22:09:01 -!- r1nu-_ [n=debian@ppp-94-67-157-133.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 22:09:17 no, not really, id doesn't tell anything 22:09:22 s/id/it/ 22:09:42 leo2007: you might want to scroll back and find out why the compile-file failed 22:11:39 Is there source anywhere for the full "loop" macro expanded in an unoptimized but portable form? 22:11:57 drewc: i cannot find the error. let me post the host repl buffer 22:12:27 Modius: How do you mean? SBCL'S LOOP expands to SETQ, RPLACX, TAGBODY, GOTO, and LET 22:12:28 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 22:12:48 that buffer is over 6000 lines 22:13:04 grep it 22:13:15 tcr: A: My interest isn't solely for SBCL, and B: I see references to SB-Loop:: a lot in SBCL's expansion 22:13:16 C-r in emacs 22:13:18 what's the advantage of using DESTRUCTING-BIND over MULTIPLE-VALUES-BIND? 22:13:28 stassats: i did that but just could not find any error 22:13:40 Modius: Sure that are macros again, just go to these forms and press C-c C-m again 22:13:40 optikalmouse: it can destructure lists 22:13:50 i.e. they're for different things. 22:13:58 Modius: Or use C-c M-m on the loop form to macroexpand-all 22:14:16 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 22:14:27 gigamonkey: ok, that brings me back to my earlier question, why return a list when you can return values? :S 22:14:28 tcr: I'm after the macro not the expansion 22:14:43 r1nu-_ [n=debian@ppp-94-67-157-133.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:14:54 tcr: (If anyone's ever written one out portably) 22:14:55 optikalmouse: depends what you want to do. returning values is good for when some callers only care about the primary value. 22:14:56 optikalmouse: they are different things 22:14:57 optikalmouse: Because Lisp programmers know the value(s) of everything and the cost of nothing. 22:15:10 -!- r1nu- [n=debian@ppp-94-67-156-67.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:15:14 return a list when that's what you actually want. 22:15:33 Though there are cases where only taste can guide you. 22:15:40 Modius: I think SBCL's one is pretty portable. IIRC, abcl and xcl use it, too. 22:16:10 weird, very 22:16:11 minion: sacla 22:16:12 sacla: A partial (as of 2004) Common Lisp implementation written in Common Lisp by Yuji Minejima, under a BSD style license. http://www.cliki.net/sacla 22:16:13 a list is a data structure. there is no such thing as a first class 'values' 22:16:18 Nubi once asked the Partriarch McCarthy: "Why, O perfect master, does Lisp 1.5 store variable values in a-lists and function values in p-lists?" 22:17:02 optikalmouse: Return a list when you want to return a compound object with several properties. 22:17:05 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@adsl-89-132-3-172.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:59 I mean when these properties belong logically very much together 22:18:02 McCarthy replied "Sufficient to the day is the evil thereof!" and struck Nubi on the head with a destructor. 22:18:05 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:18:07 The disciple was enlightened. 22:18:07 the repl buffer is here http://paste2.org/p/210227 22:18:16 i.e. when they constitute the primary return value of your function 22:18:23 My bottom line goal is to stream line loading of packages (but from the discussion, it seems a word like "modules" would be better). So imagine writing some "module", I would only need to specify the name, docstring, only immediate module dependencies (in other words, not deps of deps), imports for convenience, and exports for others to interface with. Once the file is defined, a simple loading of the file should recursively load d 22:18:23 ependencies in proper order. I have a proposed solution that requires restrictions on what is allowed that I can further define. I also have working code for a simple case. 22:18:58 any idea what's wrong? 22:19:07 DeusExPikachu: it seems like the systems facilities that exist, more or less do that. 22:19:27 So you need to make sure you understand, say, ASDF, and then say what you want to fix about it. 22:19:29 <_death> optikalmouse: you are right to wonder about http-get's return values.. I would use multiple values in that case rather than a list 22:19:30 keyword is streamline, I guess I am that aversed to writing a asdf file 22:19:30 leo2007: you can just select accept restart 22:19:32 -!- p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-99331297243b1af7] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:20:04 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:20:32 DeusExPikachu: then I'd advise you to try to write a new system facility that somehow manages to grovel dependencies implicitly/based on naming conventions. 22:20:35 My solution definitely conflicts with the way asdf works 22:20:43 But I'd say if you find yourself fighting the package system, you're doing it wrong. 22:20:48 (IMHO) 22:21:00 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 22:21:43 btw, this may be important, my system is not backwards compatible with previous packages, they would need to be redone to work 22:22:01 "packages"? 22:22:11 ummm... systems 22:22:14 I mean 22:22:21 You mean system-systems? 22:22:25 ;-) 22:22:43 You mean you're not going to be backwards compatible with ASDF. That seems fine. 22:22:45 sorry, yes I think so, however software is distributed 22:22:48 stassats: thanks. I have just found a newer package of fnv and it now installs smoothly 22:23:08 yeah I'm writing it for my own code so at least I won't piss anyone else off 22:23:28 Have fun. I suspect this will be an interesting learning experience for you. 22:23:48 I'd lay an even money bet that at the end of it you'll have learned a lot and will give up and use ASDF. ;-) 22:23:51 tcr: Thanks, the loop.lisp in sbcl seems "ready to rock" 22:24:05 Feel free, however, to make me lose that bet. 22:24:42 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:25:00 Yeah, I figure getting hands dirty is the way to go, I'll take you up on the challenge knowing that I may lose too 22:25:21 DeusExPikachu: asdf is, in this case, the worst system, except for all the others 22:25:25 of course I don't intend to completely eliminate asdf cause of backwards compat 22:25:27 <_death> DeusExPikachu: you may be interested in xcvb which, I believe, wants file-local dependency specifications rather than one big system definition form 22:25:41 yeah, I don't know if its ready for prime time yet 22:25:48 (to whom should asdf patches be submitted, actually?) 22:26:15 Later on I'll work on automatically loading both asdf based stuff with mine 22:26:18 *rsynnott* would like to see the last of that stupid thing where it goes into infinite loops if the .asd creation date is in the future 22:26:27 heh 22:26:33 *gigamonkey* needs more code from the future. 22:26:42 minoin, chant 22:26:48 minion, rather. chant! 22:26:49 you speak nonsense 22:26:52 :) 22:27:24 minion, chant rather more often 22:27:24 MORE OFTEN 22:27:38 Interesting. 22:27:44 minion, chant rather more quickly 22:27:44 MORE QUICKLY 22:27:54 So "more" parsing is done before command parsing. 22:28:17 or command execution, depending how the data flows. 22:28:49 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068149037.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:30 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h59n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 22:30:20 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:30:25 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1215.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:31:10 Yes. 22:31:28 im trying to rebuild sbcl using clbuild under osx and i keep getting the error "Cowardly refusing to build SBCL when $CCL is set". its not set in clbuild.conf, and my bash-fu is weak. any tips? 22:31:43 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B697.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:32:43 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 22:34:11 mcspiff: you can grep through the output of the command env 22:34:14 I think with my system, the only remaining big issue is to figure out the compile-file problem. Once this is done, usage with slime should be transparent and I can happily code my own (house code only for now) little projects 22:34:30 mcspiff: alternatively, run $ CCL= ./clbuild command 22:34:41 (that should work in zsh and, I think, bash) 22:35:19 DeusExPikachu: Do you house project span multiple files? 22:35:33 yes 22:36:11 actually sorry, no 22:36:23 antifuchs: same thing, under bash and zsh 22:36:25 the code loading code is quite small 22:36:29 is it possible to do a recursive for loop? 22:36:41 mcspiff: try "unset CCL" 22:36:50 (and then running clbuild) 22:37:46 In sbcl, what does sb!int:aver do? 22:38:06 it's an assert that treats failures more strictly 22:38:38 -!- jao [n=jao@85.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 22:38:48 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:38:58 I was trying out lisp-matrix not from within site direcotry. Now I move it into ~/.sbcl/site, slime complains 22:39:09 failed to find the TRUENAME of /Volumes/RAM Disk/lisp-matrix/src/package.lisp 22:39:17 that is, if the condition it avers is false, that is an internal bug and will be reported as such, with a big scary warning (: 22:39:18 how can I reload this package? 22:40:09 antifuchs: thanks 22:44:29 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:44:47 any pointers on what might trigger sbcl warning "Starting a select without a timeout while interrupts are disabled"? 22:44:51 I'm assuming there are some 'uncommon cases'.. (http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/lisp/07.05.24) 22:45:10 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:45:27 i have successfully installed lisp-matrix. many thanks for your help!!! 22:46:32 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:46:44 p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-647abc8a2fb35013] has joined #lisp 22:47:13 "fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 6243: 22:47:13 can't load .core for different runtime, sorry" when trying to build sbcl 22:47:24 antifuchs: any ideas? 22:48:52 -!- optikalmouse [n=user@bas1-toronto10-1279559024.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 22:49:56 mcspiff: it sounds like you've set a custom SBCL_HOME in your environment 22:50:07 mcspiff: try "echo $SBCL_HOME" to diagnose 22:50:20 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6E43F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:18 also, does running "sbcl" on the command line work without any problems for you? 22:51:31 antifuchs: it does, but nothing is set... 22:51:37 huh 22:52:06 antifuchs: sorry combined two messages in the wrong order. SBCL_HOME isnt set, but sbcl works from command line 22:52:20 ok, I figured. weird. 22:52:25 <_3b> hmm, broke sb-sprof again, 'unhandled memory fault' 22:52:33 antifuchs: which sbcl gives /usr/local/bin/sbcl. under os x 22:52:46 that sounds very sane to me. weird. 22:54:27 CHESSGUY [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:01 -!- CHESSGUY is now known as chessguy 22:56:27 antifuchs: agreed 22:57:23 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:57:23 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-221-149.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:58:56 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-082-212-032-239.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 22:59:05 mcspiff: I'm sorry, I have to drop into bed now; hope you can find the problem. at any rate, I'll be able to think better tomorrow. 22:59:18 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-7-56.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:20 antifuchs: thanks for your help 23:00:08 so in my defpackage wrapper macro, it calls in this order, load and compile files, defpackage details, in-package, but compiling the file with the wrapper runs the defpackage stuff first. How do I get load/compile file code to run first? 23:01:28 DeusExPikachu: I have no idea if this is your problem but it sounds like you may need to understand EVAL-WHEN 23:01:58 antifuchs: got it. It should have been using the previously built copy of sbcl from the clbuild directory. setting PATH up right solved it 23:03:07 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:08:07 -!- ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:11:04 is there anyway to get the sbcl version from the repl? 23:11:44 o nvm, found it in slime 23:15:02 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-45.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 23:16:20 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:16:24 gigamonkey, hey got it to work, I really should've tried eval-when before the beginning of this discussion 23:18:59 DeusExPikachu: cool. 23:20:23 I need to do more testing, but C-c C-k works recursively 23:21:53 I mean, it loads the file and my wrapper loads stuff recursively 23:22:09 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:22:10 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has left #lisp 23:22:21 from that initial loading of the file 23:24:01 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6E43F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 23:25:16 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:22 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-215-133.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:15 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-215-133.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:26:23 hi am i correct when i say that writing a cffi wrapper for a c++ library would be rather difficult? what would be the best way to call c++ code? 23:26:42 <_3b> usually through a C wrapper of some sort 23:27:16 so i have to write a c wrapper and then a lisp wrapper for the c wrapper 23:27:26 <_3b> (you might see if any more popular languages have a useable one written already) 23:27:30 <_3b> right 23:28:03 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@132.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:10 ok thanks 23:29:00 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-43-221.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:29:31 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:32:15 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [] 23:32:49 -!- attila_lendvai__ [n=ati@adsl-89-132-5-39.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:34:13 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 23:35:16 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB"] 23:36:08 <_3b> will 'call backtrace_from_fp()' in gdb work if sbcl is trying to GC? 23:36:57 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:37:12 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634405.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 23:37:41 <_3b> 'call backtrace_from_fp($rbp, 100)' more specifically, on x86-64 23:38:12 klausi: yep, often there will be an existing C wrapper you can steal :) 23:38:34 (haskell ones are particularly handy, as it seems to have a similar ffi model) 23:39:20 jawn- [n=dicks@daemon.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 23:39:37 hi 23:39:47 can you guys recommend some good resources for learning lisp? 23:39:53 minion: pcl? 23:39:54 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 23:40:06 thanks! 23:40:10 that one is awesome 23:40:29 are there any IDEs or anything i should bother with? 23:40:38 luskwater [n=luskwate@pool-68-163-63-155.phlapa.btas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:44 minion: slime? 23:40:44 slime: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/slime 23:40:53 o nose 23:40:56 iok 23:41:06 I can't read your last 2 lines jawn- 23:41:14 even if you think you can't stand Emacs, you should use SLIME for the repl 23:41:24 whats repl? 23:41:35 prompt? interactive interpreter? shell? 23:41:36 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:41:39 ooh ok 23:41:43 gotcha 23:41:44 thank you 23:41:47 off to read 23:41:59 -!- luskwater [n=luskwate@pool-68-163-63-155.phlapa.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:43:07 Any interest in a patch that moves the whole "connecting and talking to Swank" bit of SLIME to a contrib? 23:43:08 ;) 23:43:10 Wombat1 [n=willy@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:20 -!- Wombat1 [n=willy@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has left #lisp 23:49:23 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:52:32 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:52:37 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:44 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:55:53 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 23:55:55 The-Kenn1 [n=moritz@p5087F055.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:04 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:56:23 -!- dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit ["Leaving"]