00:00:03 I bet I could get a refund of Allegro license fees in the event of a meltdown 00:00:20 the stuff directly doing the time critical stuff is usually done with microcontrollers, IIRC 00:00:25 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087D838.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:00:31 at least with modern stuff 00:01:28 there was an unfortunate incident in a TVA plant recently where a custom-designed TCP stack flooded the control network for some pumping equipment, causing a complete shutdown 00:02:52 (the general trend seems to be that the really critical stuff has heavily tested custom stuff, but they're sloppy about the ancillary bits 00:03:07 well, afk. Time to sleep 00:04:46 oh, though NASA and ESA are still apparently using bits of the lisp control system from Deep Space One, and there's talk of testing an ion drive with small nuclear reactor in the next decade, so that would be SORT OF lisp nuclear control :) 00:05:01 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 00:05:19 slashus2 [n=dex@74-141-105-89.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 00:05:35 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:05:37 rsynnott: didn't they scrap it in the end? at least from new projects? Something about not working with their C counterparts :P 00:05:38 next step, world domination 00:06:18 gigamoney's already got that covered 00:06:28 think they're meant to be using it for bits and pieces still 00:08:16 mib_098ae7cz [i=5c66047a@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a03833af8ec900db] has joined #lisp 00:08:31 Hello 00:09:42 I am a newbie in Lisp so can I have some help ? 00:09:44 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-234-19.51-151.net24.it] has left #lisp 00:10:18 you can 00:11:07 -!- jophish [n=jophish@dial-80-47-3-226.access.uk.tiscali.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:11:30 I want to do a fonction which you give (jeanpaul) and it return ((j)(e)(a)(n)(p)(a)(u)(l)) 00:12:05 is that a homework? 00:12:10 sounds like it 00:12:19 I tried to do this with cddr but I dont understand all the concept to do this 00:12:44 it come from a TP 00:12:54 <_3b> are you sure you don't want to use strings and characters instead of lists and symbols? 00:13:37 no 00:13:44 -!- punflinger [n=punfling@97.65.1.175] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:14:33 I start to learn LISP a week ago and it's not easy for me ! 00:14:43 What is a TP? 00:14:54 turbopascal? 00:15:09 practical exercie ? 00:15:14 slashus2_ [n=dex@74-141-105-89.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 00:15:29 I'm not sure about the translation s 00:15:32 :s 00:16:26 Did any one have a good website to start with LISP 00:16:34 minion: pcl? 00:16:35 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 00:16:42 and Lisp, not LISP 00:18:04 minion: mmm that's a useful remark... Lisp and not LISP. Nice to know for my self as well :) 00:18:05 i enjoy to know for your self as well too 00:18:15 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E378.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:18:29 stassats what is the difference ? (Cause in all my .ppt it's write LISP not Lisp) 00:19:19 you have lowercase letters on your keyboard 00:19:20 and I like "Practical Common Lisp". It's a nice book indeed. Especially the practical parts. 00:20:15 back in time terminals were dumb 00:20:16 stassats yes 00:20:27 lol a quote from freenode 'that book is dead sexy --Xach on #lisp' 00:20:28 slime question: how do i copy contents from a file over to the slime interpreter i have up 00:20:45 could've been the author himself posing as Xach 00:20:56 jimi_hendrix: copy? 00:21:04 mib_098ae7cz: basically it used to be called LISP and these days it's called Lisp. If someone says "LISP" you know you're dealing with someone living in the past. 00:21:05 controll: It wasn't. We have the logs. 00:21:11 stassats, eval the whole thing 00:21:19 jimi_hendrix: C-c C-l 00:21:21 ok 00:21:31 or C-c C-k to compile then load 00:21:52 difference? 00:22:05 clhs compile-file 00:22:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp_fi.htm 00:22:06 clhs load 00:22:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm 00:22:24 jimi_hendrix: some implementation may include an interpreter in addition to a compiler. 00:22:47 gigamonkey Ok ;) The reason of my LISP is from my teacher, he is old 00:23:00 pjb, such as sbcl 00:23:01 even if not, semantics of load and compile-file are different 00:23:06 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [" MS forgot to close port 80 "] 00:23:19 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 00:23:29 gigamonkey and his PDF & .ppt too :) 00:24:05 stassats: Though C-c C-k in SLIME is more like (load (compile-file ...)) 00:28:10 did any one know LispWorks ? Because we work with this but I don't like it ! 00:28:48 it is Allegro or CLISP ? 00:29:05 mib_098ae7cz: LispWorks is a Common Lisp implementation. It is not the same as Allegro or CLISP, which are two other CL implementations. 00:29:06 it is lispworks ;) 00:29:23 http://www.lispworks.com/ 00:29:25 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 00:29:38 mib_098ae7cz: As they are all CL implementations, they adhere, more or less, to the CL standard. we will happily discuss standard CL with you; help with implementations may vary in availability 00:30:36 *mib_098ae7cz* pooo !! hard to start working with something you never hear 00:32:21 -!- slashus2 [n=dex@74-141-105-89.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Success] 00:32:32 kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:32:34 -!- kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 00:33:52 mib_098ae7cz: to clarify, the problem you mentioned above about (jeanpaul) is not implementation-dependent 00:33:57 So on LispBox download page their advice to use Allegro to run all the practical examples from Practical Common Lisp 00:34:04 mib_098ae7cz: it should for most pracitcal purposes be similar to any other lisp 00:34:10 (common lisp that is) 00:34:11 So can I use LispWork too ? 00:34:16 jr` [n=jr@78.52.8.229] has joined #lisp 00:34:19 mib_098ae7cz: yes 00:34:22 yep, pcl stuff should work in it 00:34:24 ok 00:35:20 rsynnott Merci for you explication 00:35:34 s/Merci/Thank you 00:36:03 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:40:56 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.118.193] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:41:17 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 00:42:07 mib_098ae7cz: in any case, lispbox actually gives you a choice of FOUR lisps 00:42:23 so clearly the book can't be too implementation-specific 00:43:14 rsynnott ok 00:43:40 Indeed. Whatever Lisp you use, will need threads for some of the practicals. 00:43:56 which lispworks has anyway, of course 00:44:04 But other than that there are no other implementation dependencies of which I am aware. 00:44:10 rsynnott: right. It rules out CLISP though. 00:44:15 I'm installin LispBox 00:44:32 *gigamonk`* feels ashamed of how out of date Lispbox is. 00:44:37 best choose one other tahan clisp, then :) 00:44:38 to see the difference wit LispWork 00:44:52 which is not ease to use ! 00:45:04 gigamonk`: indeed; you could have one with ccls for EVERYTHING, now :) 00:45:04 mib_098ae7cz: are you an Emacs user? 00:45:26 rsynnott: if I do a 2nd ed. of PCL, I'll probably do that. 00:45:33 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-252-82.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:45:34 gigamonk` No 00:45:47 mib_098ae7cz: okay. Carry on. 00:45:55 gigamonk` Im on windows for this week ! 00:45:59 (I'm not sure quite how stable ccl on windows is, but I was unable to break it with some quick testing a while back) 00:46:47 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:09 -!- sellout is now known as Guest50114 00:47:18 rsynnott with LispWork, I "break" it twice !!! bug, close, obliged too re-run ! 00:47:32 mib_098ae7cz: Grab the Allegro Lispbox and you should be fine. 00:47:47 rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-109.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:48:26 LispBox is a java apps ? 00:48:35 Eh? No. 00:48:57 *rsynnott* feels quite attached to ccl, as openmcl was the one I learned on :) 00:49:12 (though that was more through lack of choice for the mac at the time than anything else) 00:49:27 Lispbox (assuming you're talking about http://www.gigamonkeys.com/lispbox/) is a packaging of an out-of-date version of Emacs with an out-of-date version of SLIME with an out-of-date version of a Lisp of your choice. 00:49:39 The good news is they're all out-of-date from the same era so should still work. 00:49:55 heh 00:50:31 actually, if they're out of date enough they may not on a modern mac 00:50:33 gigamonk` OK. I just ask because during the install I seen some .jar 00:50:40 rsynnott: true. 00:50:43 pretty sure leopard broke my old openmcl when I upgraded 00:50:49 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:50:52 but should be fine on win32 00:50:58 mib_098ae7cz: Probably something that Allegro includes. 00:51:10 gigamonk` ok 00:51:19 yep, allegro has some form for java interface 00:51:29 -!- Guest50114 is now known as sellout 00:51:32 though I'm sort of surprised they include it in the free version 00:52:14 rsynnott: I vaguely recall that the difference between versions in Allegro has only to do with the license you get. 00:52:21 (Which the software enforces.) 00:52:34 I.e. like the difference between NT Server and Client. 00:52:36 ah 00:52:42 I've never really used it 00:52:45 (allegro) 00:53:01 can i ask a slime question here, or is there a better channel 00:53:04 I did try lispworks when thinking about writing a gui app, but the license fee was a little steep 00:53:29 (particularly because their pricing seems rooted in the days when a euro was more or less the same as a dollar) 00:53:42 Install done :) 00:53:44 jimi_hendrix: this one is probably reasonable :) 00:53:49 ok 00:54:07 i have slime 1.2 .. i am trying to load slime-fancy, but emacs cant find it 00:54:22 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 00:54:30 add contrib to load-path 00:54:30 introduction reading done at 65% so I'll finish in my bed. 00:54:46 jimi_hendrix: where did you get it? 00:54:56 google indicates that it is rather old 00:55:09 cvs 00:55:11 Thank you for your help and you time 00:55:26 oh, okay, that's weird then 00:55:30 and your teaching ;) 00:56:12 have good time, 00:56:15 jimi_hendrix: oh, you might want something like (add-to-list 'load-path "/bla/bla/slime/contrib/") in your .emacs 00:56:19 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:25 cya, Merimac 00:56:37 mib_098ae7cz aka Merimac 00:56:46 -!- mib_098ae7cz [i=5c66047a@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a03833af8ec900db] has left #lisp 00:57:15 rsynnott, where can i get a newer version of slime if this one is old 00:57:26 nah, if you got it from cvs it should be fine 00:58:04 (it looks like they just haven't changed the version number since forever) 00:59:14 gigamonkey pasted "The weirdest thing Donald Knuth said" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80000 00:59:49 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-120.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 00:59:57 *rsynnott* blinks 01:00:01 *rsynnott* doubts it 01:00:20 maybe it was partially metaphorical ("this is the complicated part, it must be slow") 01:00:20 Wow, paste 80,000 even! 01:00:21 Yeah, that was sort of my reaction. 01:00:27 (Do novice C++ programmers think that references, or the use of 'const', are terribly expensive for the computer? Maybe, I suppose) 01:00:52 lisppaste: here's a colon, put it in your format string 01:01:26 In fairness, templates cause confusion in C++, and tend to make the compiler sit around for a few seconds, muttering to itself :) 01:02:37 rsynnott: seconds? You're lucky. 01:05:06 C++ compilers being the only things, possibly excluding Windows, which get slower faster than computers can get faster to accomodate them 01:05:06 *rsynnott* does not look forward to the coming of C++0x compilers, from that point of view 01:05:06 (though the actual standard looks reasonably nice; it has lambdas! proper ones!) 01:06:22 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-130-102.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:06:34 rsynnott: You know, there's a really simple way to get windows to run decently fast on modern hardware. 01:06:57 (Use windows 3.11.) 01:07:32 When the entire system fits in your L2 cache, you're going to have -some- speed. 01:08:20 XP seems quite reasonable these days (and has apparently had another couple of years added to its life, under pressure from HP) 01:09:39 I don't really have any problem with Vista. 01:09:56 then again, I only boot into it to run games 01:10:18 I had it for a few weeks when I started my previous job (Dell incorrectly gave us a bunch of vista machines) and was quite unimpressed 01:10:53 BrianRice` [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:06 though I was using visual studio; at the time there was no version of visual studio which MS considered suitable for running on vista 01:11:18 2008 has come out since, so things may not be quite so horrible 01:12:02 Does x86-64 have a bit population op? 01:12:09 (2003 worked, but crashed if you attempted to search or do a few other simple things; 2005 woundn't even install) 01:12:36 gigamonk`: popcount in SSE4.1 or something like that IIRC. It's not too slow in SW, though. 01:12:49 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-84-17.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 01:12:59 No. Just read the bit in my interview with Knuth where he said it should be in hardware. 01:13:06 Wondered if it was. 01:13:49 ou interviewed knuth? 01:13:51 seems much less useful than most/least significant bit set. 01:13:51 *you 01:14:09 rsynnott: yes 01:14:21 ah, cool; is that on internet somewhere? 01:14:25 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:14:33 Coming to a bookstore near you soon. 01:14:40 heh 01:14:41 For large values of "soon" 01:15:27 possibly large values of 'bookstore near me', too; the local ones buy tech books in a terribly haphazard fashion 01:16:42 (funnily enough, I went looking for PCL in the big dublin bookshop, and they didn't have it, but apparently had enough of an idea of what it was about to ask if I wanted an elderly scheme book instead) 01:17:34 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 01:18:34 rsynnott: some clerk knew? 01:18:38 yep 01:18:41 Dang. 01:18:43 without looking at a computer 01:18:48 Crazy! 01:19:38 carbocalm [n=user@76-10-146-176.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:19:41 (one of the local universities uses scheme in teaching, so possibly she was familiar with it that way, but still...) 01:21:08 Do you think she was actually familiar with PCL or did she just key off the "Lisp" in the title to get to Scheme? 01:22:05 not sure; could be either 01:22:18 she might have been a cs student, of course 01:22:48 anyone know where sbcl checks for libs 01:23:11 The university I went to used to use scheme for teaching, but replaced it with eiffel, of all things 01:23:31 eiffel is still around? 01:23:34 jimi_hendrix: sbcl itself, or asdf? 01:23:35 Wow. 01:23:36 oh, yes 01:23:44 rsynnott: are you in Europe? 01:23:47 yep 01:23:54 France or elsewhere? 01:23:56 Ireland 01:23:58 jimi_hendrix: there is a function that will return the answer. 01:23:59 Was Meyer affiliated with the uni in any way? 01:23:59 ah 01:24:01 close enough 01:24:14 gigamonk`: no, but one of the senior lecturers was a big fan 01:24:14 Irish ties to the French :P 01:24:32 not a bad teaching language, really, I suppose 01:24:36 yeah it's not 01:24:41 you could certainly do worse. 01:24:47 rsynnott, sbcl, i installed a lib with asdf to /usr/lib/sbcl, but slime cant find it 01:24:51 but... Scheme would be better :P 01:24:51 illuminati1113, which is 01:25:02 jimi_hendrix: check the vairable asdf:*central-registry* 01:25:11 (we also had java in first year, C and C++ for systems stuff and prolog for AI) 01:25:45 though apparently in the last few years they've gone more java-centric 01:25:58 jimi_hendrix: if you want to use another location, you can just add it to the list. 01:26:26 jimi_hendrix: you used asdf-install? 01:26:53 ya 01:27:14 rsynnott, i dont like how everything has gone java centric 01:27:21 i dont really like java... 01:27:51 AP CompSci wants you to know java, a lot of schools by me teach java only, a lot of universities teach it 01:27:52 etc 01:28:03 they also scrapped compiler design, more or less, and added a course on UI design 01:28:28 rsynnott: interesting. Fran Allen was complaining that schools were no longer teaching compilers and I was surprised to hear it. 01:28:39 gigamonk`: it's a real problem 01:28:41 Guess she knows what she's talking about. 01:29:07 She, by the way, places the blame entirely on C. 01:29:09 I want a compiler class but all I can get is a "Compare And Contrast Language Paradigms" class 01:29:23 which has some compiler/interpreter content 01:29:36 Adamant: what text do you use for that class? 01:29:54 though the cause probably wasn't typical; the state gave them large amounts of money in the 90s to run a rather pointless 'ICT' course, with obligation to run it until 2010. Demand for it dried up in the last few years, so they had to merge it into CS 01:30:09 it's possible they'll just go back after their obligation runs out 01:30:17 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:30:24 ICT? 01:30:31 Learn to use Word 01:30:34 Programming Languages: Principles and Paradigms by Tucker and Noonan 2nd Ed 01:30:41 Adamant: thanks 01:30:41 (though they also want to keep some certification with the engineering institute; it seems to be them who demanded the UI design thing) 01:30:50 is it an IT degree or what? 01:30:52 which schools do you go to? all the major universities in canada have compiler construction (as well as OS development) courses 01:31:02 so do the major ones in the US 01:31:09 we do OS's but not compilers 01:31:09 I'd love to take a course on UI design to be honest 01:31:14 don't know where to get it from 01:31:28 I think it's mostly because we recently lost our former compiler teacher and have no real replacement yet 01:31:41 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:31:46 I'm not at a major 01:32:00 Adamant: 'ICT' in this case was watered down computer science with a lot of random stuff thrown in designed to attract students during the first web boom 01:32:03 regional decent school at best 01:32:19 rsynnott: so it's not teaching them to be a sysadmin/netadmin? 01:32:29 (it was percieved, I think, that trinity was losing students to other unis which were offering more 'practical' courses) 01:32:30 that's more or less what our IT degrees are for 01:32:34 Adamant: nope 01:32:40 then flush it 01:33:41 gigamonk`: are you looking for books for self-education in that vein? 01:34:17 and recently, as well, there's been some pressure to make the course easier (it had something like a 60% dropout rate over four years the year I started) 01:34:22 Adamant: Not really. Just curious if it was one of the several I've got sitting on my shelf to be read some day. 01:34:25 ah 01:34:43 gigamonk`: Programming Language Paradigms is a better book IMO 01:35:06 but because of the lack of the compiler course, we have to get some of that content in this class 01:35:25 Who's the author? 01:35:42 *rsynnott* really liked our compilers courses 01:36:50 yeah, me too. No textbook. 01:36:58 gigamonk`: my mistake, wrong title. It's currently buried behind a wall of books I don't dare disturb yet. 01:37:04 http://books.google.com/books?id=liFIzw613NcC&pg=PA25&dq=Programming+Language+Paradigms+book&lr= 01:37:06 this is it. 01:37:43 Programming Language Pragmatics 01:37:51 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:38:02 Adamant: I think I have that one. 01:38:11 hmm, google books seems to have most of that book, actually 01:38:13 *gigamonk`* hates when new editions of books come out that he has sitting on his shelf, unread. 01:38:14 ah, ok 01:38:39 I think the publisher of that book emailed me before the 2nd ed. came out, asking permission to include a link to PCL on the accompying CD. 01:38:41 personally I thought it was a better book than the one I was using, but I don't think it's popular with academics for some reason 01:38:44 Don't know if they did. 01:39:05 although I think CMU may have used it at one time 01:43:26 rullie__ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:43:58 -!- rullie__ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:45:45 gigamonk`: how was C to blame for decline of compiler courses? 01:46:13 gigamonkey pasted "Maybe the best answer from my Knuth interview" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80003 01:46:26 -!- Strav [n=user@dsl-216-221-37-177.aei.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:46:41 heheh 01:46:47 haha 01:47:28 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:47:34 gigamonkey pasted "Fran Allen on C" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80004 01:48:07 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 01:48:35 kpreid: Without more language diversity there's less need for new compilers. 01:49:04 gigamonkey annotated #80004 "Some more" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80004#1 01:49:22 ah, that's a bit like what I guessed: "C is too hairy to interestingly compile, and nobody wants to use not-C" 01:49:22 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-130-102.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:49:46 hardly the case anymore, though 01:50:05 now everyone uses languages that are hairy to compile for GOOD reasons :-) 01:50:13 except it's not "everyone" 01:50:23 -!- ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:50:34 or for very bad reasons 01:50:40 well, yes 01:50:47 *rsynnott* thinks of php 01:51:25 jsoft [n=Administ@118-92-166-232.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:51:42 -!- slashus2_ [n=dex@74-141-105-89.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [] 01:52:42 slashus2 [n=dex@74-141-105-89.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 01:52:58 kpreid: I think the goodness ratio of the hairiness tends to go down as the hairiness goes up (e.g. ruby or python). 01:53:09 *nyef* knows a php/mysql afficianado where he's currently working. 01:53:32 http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/fog0000000249.html <-- oddly enough, given the topic, the text warning that the article is old is almost unreadable :-( 01:53:35 I could never quite understand how anyone actually LIKED it 01:53:38 but people seem to 01:54:19 sohail: ... 01:54:44 kpreid, looking for UI design articles/books for programmers :-) 01:55:00 sohail: decoratively mangled? yes. unreadable? no. 01:55:22 I said almost 01:55:55 I accuse you of hyperbole, then 01:56:11 ...or bad vision 01:56:19 *kpreid* drops it 01:56:26 clearly, he should have done it in middle english 01:59:06 -!- rullie_ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:00:32 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:04:42 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:27 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:10:41 ssttss [n=sissy@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 02:11:58 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:12:32 how do I get clx/mcclim to work on OS X 10.5? http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/mcclim-announce/2008-April/000013.html suggests there is a simple workaround, but I tried DISPLAY=:0 with no effect 02:13:46 kpreid: have you got Leopard's X11 server running already? 02:14:15 Any German speakers here able to tell me what a German name that sounded to me like "Ugath" might actually be. 02:14:33 Franz Ugath, a computer scientist, whose name I'm mangling so badly Google can't help me. 02:15:29 Do you have the names of any projects he's worked on or papers he's written? 02:16:01 rsynnott: makes no difference. "6 fell through ECASE expression. Wanted one of (:INTERNET :LOCAL)." inside of "(XLIB::READ-XAUTH-ENTRY #)" 02:16:19 takehiko [i=d114539f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4202e457b62cc440] has joined #lisp 02:16:34 Sadly, no. I just know that Donald Knuth gave him as an example of one of the few people interested in reading old program source. 02:16:52 not something to do with ipv6, is it? 02:17:27 rsynnott: no idea. I have a selfassigned ipv6 interface just like every other osx machine 02:18:05 Hrm. According to /etc/protocols on my linux box, that's TCP. Unless it isn't. 02:20:31 -!- takehiko [i=d114539f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4202e457b62cc440] has left #lisp 02:20:41 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:20:54 Why am I still awake? 02:20:58 -!- nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 02:27:25 -!- carbocalm [n=user@76-10-146-176.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:32:13 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0F67.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:33:55 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-31-49.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:38:21 -!- alec [n=alec@pool-96-237-2-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:40:39 mjonsson [n=mjonsson@66-234-60-27.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:59 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2F693.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:02 benny [n=benny@i577A0F67.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:44:38 -!- pem_ is now known as pem 02:44:47 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-80-171.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:44:52 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:46:17 -!- timchen119 is now known as nasloc__ 02:46:51 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has left #lisp 02:49:34 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@35.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 02:49:58 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@206.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:53:06 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 02:56:09 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:11 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:58:45 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:58:59 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-84.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:08 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F21F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:59:50 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 03:00:05 -!- ztzg [n=dash@dslb-084-057-060-168.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:01:39 Maghnus_ [n=maghnus@66-191-104-128.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:02:33 -!- theL00p [n=user@78.33.52.101] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:02:36 ztzg [n=dash@dslb-084-057-035-010.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:27 Good morning. 03:08:33 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:08:40 -!- Maghnus [n=maghnus@66.191.104.128] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:18:27 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:24:18 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:15 ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 03:38:20 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:45:57 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 03:46:07 -!- ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:47:15 ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 03:50:00 -!- ssttss [n=sissy@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:50:03 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 03:58:17 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has left #lisp 03:59:15 lat__ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:59:24 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 04:02:43 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:03:41 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:14 argh. 04:07:25 -!- jr` [n=jr@78.52.8.229] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:07:30 -!- holycow [n=rtaylor@64.151.208.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:10:19 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:10:55 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:01 words cannot express my rage. 04:11:17 Do you have a picture instead? 04:11:36 I'd check, but that would probably crash my X server too. 04:11:38 he is programming C++ and found a bug with if ( i = 1){ ... } 04:12:18 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 04:12:26 although I'd probably be better off all around if I ditched this wobbly mcclim spectrum analyzer hack and just had it spit image files to disk 04:12:36 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:16:31 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:43 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 04:30:30 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-1c18961a3e9943c3] has joined #lisp 04:32:49 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 04:36:28 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student164-35.hampshire.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:36:51 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 04:38:37 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-61-128-14.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:15 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 04:42:20 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:43:51 yo, beach 04:53:23 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:53:33 gigamonkey: hey, what's up? 04:55:41 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 04:56:55 -!- lat__ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Success] 04:56:59 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 04:58:43 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 04:59:30 Yo. Just saying hello. 04:59:59 (I always seem to notice you're online after I've had my nightcap and am feeling gregarious.) 05:00:08 hey, everyone. 05:00:22 *gigamonkey* is surprised he can spell "gregarious" after having had his nightcap. 05:01:06 I actually had some new book idea I wanted to run by you but I can't remember now what it was. 05:01:17 heh 05:01:23 aww. the suspense! 05:01:34 gigamonkey: perhaps after having slept for a while. 05:01:41 hello tic 05:01:59 No doubt. Of course, after having slept a while I've got to get back to work on the *current* book. 05:02:41 heya, beachy 05:02:49 gigamonkey, haxx0rz at work still, is it? 05:03:20 tic: yup. 05:04:46 Reminds me, I need to read through that Other book I have on the subject... 05:05:11 tic: eh? 05:05:20 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.71.28] has joined #lisp 05:05:27 Beautiful Code. I thought your book was to be rather similar? 05:05:38 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:07:27 I read some on Haskell Platform. Is that CLBuild in our world, or nothing at all similar? 05:08:12 tic: well, Beautiful Code is written *by* the famous (or not so famous, as the case may be) people. Mine is Q&A interviews. 05:08:30 Actuall, O'Reilly has a similar book of interviews out now. I'm waiting to finish mine before I take a look at it. 05:08:54 gigamonkey, ah, yes. that'll make it have the Gigamonkey(tm) flavor that we all have come to enjoy. 05:09:20 Beautiful Code has some good starting chapters and probably some good ending chapters but I never got to the latter because the middle is such a long boring slog. 05:09:38 Heh. Yeah, I found it to be very... un-even. 05:11:16 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-31-49.netcologne.de] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 05:13:51 I wonder about the publishing world sometimes. 05:14:22 Is it simply that longer books sell better than shorter but of higher average-quality books? 05:14:33 More bang for the buck. 05:14:43 It's the lines of co^Wtext, dude. 05:15:22 I sort of get it for purely technical books--I have fallen prey to the lure of the 1,000 page book about X on the theory that the answer I need must be in there somewhere. 05:16:04 But something like Beautiful Code, it seems like the crappy chapters in the middle of the book should somehow count against it--it'd be a better book without them. 05:16:33 I hope this theory is not true. I hate big long books. Introduction to Algorithms is an egregious example. You could throw 2/3 of that right in the garbage and no one would miss it. 05:16:47 *gigamonkey* is *not* considering leaving out any of the interviews that he spent all that time doing. 05:17:26 hefner: see have http://philip.greenspun.com/wtr/dead-trees/story 05:17:57 for the record, I meant to say 1/3. Keep 2/3. 05:18:53 hefner: are you talking about Cormen, Leiserson, et al. 05:19:17 yeah 05:19:55 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-209-44.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:28 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-245.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:22:02 From that Greenspun link I just gave: "It is an article of faith in the computer publishing that bigger books sell better. They take up more space on the shelf and readers with a tech problem find a bigger book comforting. Readers aren't really sure what is wrong with their computer and they only have a few minutes in the bookstore so they figure the thickest book is the most likely to contain the solution." 05:22:30 "Another important albeit implicit tenet is that readers are incredibly stupid." 05:29:34 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 05:33:38 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-31-49.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:35:56 "First, since publishers don't pay real money for computer books, the only people who are attracted to work as authors are the clueless and unemployed." =D 05:37:57 real money ? 05:38:05 do they pay virtual ones now ? 05:38:15 someone needs to write "how to be a WEB WHORE just like me." 05:38:33 real money is feeling particularly virtual lately, but he's merely referring to quantity. 05:39:16 money has been virtual since it stopped being backed by something 05:40:03 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:40:06 how saad 05:40:13 even that is fairly arbitrary. digging gold out of the ground does not increase the number of acres of arable farmland, or the number of workers available to man your factories. 05:40:56 to an extent, it's backed by the whole econom 05:40:57 y 05:41:44 it is a great scam though, if you happen to own a gold mine. 05:45:07 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-209-44.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:45:21 also makes survivalists feel warm and fuzzy 05:45:35 never saw the attraction of the stuff myself; it's not even all that useful 05:47:24 hefner, sure, I don't get it either 05:47:39 but is it better to be backed by imaginary things or stuff you can hold? 05:48:00 of course, if I have the power to issue that currency, I will choose imaginary :-) 05:49:45 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.71.28] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:50:03 -!- mjonsson [n=mjonsson@66-234-60-27.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:52:55 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.153.24] has joined #lisp 05:53:25 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:54:48 I'm not sure. With more sophisticated technology, perhaps a currency could be replaced by the automated negotiation and trading of vectors of commodities, equities, etc. Then perhaps investment firms could be replaced by computer programs, promising returns with each transaction we conduct, even day to day. 05:55:08 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 05:55:15 However, the events of the past year have made me increasingly suspicious of this idea. 05:57:02 alama [n=alama@c-76-102-151-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:15 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:02:58 ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 06:04:46 Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.162.153.24] has joined #lisp 06:06:46 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-70.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:06:51 semyon421 [n=semyon@217.67.122.44] has joined #lisp 06:07:28 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:08:11 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:08:32 -!- semyon421 [n=semyon@217.67.122.44] has quit [Client Quit] 06:08:40 -!- shelducks [n=cant@80-41-252-138.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:08:45 semyon421 [n=semyon@217.67.122.44] has joined #lisp 06:09:02 shelducks [n=cant@80-41-252-138.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 06:10:04 holycow [n=rtaylor@64.151.208.1] has joined #lisp 06:12:39 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 06:20:18 Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has joined #lisp 06:20:55 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-102.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 06:23:04 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 06:23:46 hefner, that exists today :-) 06:24:07 can I buy my lunch with it? 06:24:22 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.153.24] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:24:41 I might have misunderstood what you said if you expect to buy lunch with it! 06:24:58 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:17 I'm not sure what the solution to imaginary money is but I'm pretty sure making it imaginary or basing it off of future production is a bad idea 06:26:24 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 06:26:35 Hello 06:27:07 i have hunchentoot and apache at *exactly* the same performance serving a 90k static file, but when serving a 3MB file apache is 10+ times faster. 06:28:15 fusss: Can be related with chunga (chunked streams)? 06:28:25 i have profiled all the hunchentoot functions up and down the call chain, from the moment a request comes in until a response is sent. nothing really stands out. 06:29:07 I wonder if there's an economics equivalent of the three-body problem: every system involving more than two people is doomed to failure. 06:29:18 vy: you would think so, wouldn't you? not really. i read the whole file into memory and sent it out (sb-posix:write buf (send-headers*)) and it's still sluggish 06:29:21 I also wonder if apache uses sendfile(2) 06:29:23 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-102.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 06:29:41 hefner: BRAVO! 06:29:53 forgot that stupid system call. back the ffi land! 06:30:16 :) 06:30:22 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4775.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:31:10 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:32:43 hefner, I think there might be! 06:43:08 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 06:43:20 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 06:43:50 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:45:26 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 06:47:28 -!- Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.162.153.24] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:47:57 splittist [n=dmurray@247-78.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:47:59 morning 06:48:10 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:49:59 KingNato_ [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 06:49:59 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 06:50:05 -!- KingNato_ [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:50:58 KingNato_ [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 06:51:24 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:51:56 -!- Pegazus [n=awefawe@host182.190-224-189.telecom.net.ar] has left #lisp 06:53:06 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-145-45.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:53:32 good morning 06:57:07 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:58:28 matley [n=matley@93.68.220.206] has joined #lisp 06:59:41 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:06:32 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:09:02 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-165.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:09:37 mornin 07:11:53 -!- legumbre_ 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to call out to it 07:58:09 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:58:19 hard to benchmark yet, i need to sort out a little completion problem 07:58:55 is there a reverse fd-stream-fd function for getting the file descriptor associated with a file? 07:59:07 what should i look for, in order to learn how to use external lisp-libs? is it just the asdf-manual? 07:59:10 err, with a Lisp stream that is 08:00:25 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:00:33 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-109.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:00:44 -!- eirik [i=eirikald@tvilling.pvv.ntnu.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:01:00 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:01:03 i know how to turn a unix descriptor to a lisp stream, just need to find a way to get, if it exists, the unix descriptor associated with a lisp stream (i.e. socket.) :-) 08:01:36 trebor_dki: the most important thing is to learn how to use packages, whether your own or other people's 08:01:46 isn't that what fd-stream-fd does? 08:01:50 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:02:31 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:03:07 hefner: DUH! 08:03:21 fusss: thanks. i'll reread this (i already use some package stuff for my code, but very very basic). 08:03:23 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:28 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:04:07 trebor_dki: see here http://www.flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf 08:04:49 fusss: thanks - printing ;) 08:05:12 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@e244075.upc-e.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:05:20 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.239.183] has joined #lisp 08:05:49 hefner: to my defense, i was still operating under the non-standard flexi-stream way of things. in flex, you can't use the old stream after you create a flexi-stream for it. somehow i thought i couldn't have a stream and its fd-stream buddy at the same time. 08:06:15 takehiko [i=d114539f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c65b8121acda8594] has joined #lisp 08:06:51 brb 08:06:51 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 08:07:00 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [] 08:07:21 -!- takehiko [i=d114539f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c65b8121acda8594] has left #lisp 08:09:33 I'm sure you have to ensure that any buffering has been flushed 08:10:12 -!- ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has quit [Success] 08:11:01 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 08:20:33 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-1c18961a3e9943c3] has left #lisp 08:26:17 ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 08:28:25 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 08:30:01 -!- ASau 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http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/d_type.htm 09:32:57 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 09:33:04 thanks 09:33:13 actually the answer is no 09:33:44 you can declare that arrays have a particular type as element type, modulo `upgraded-array-element-type' 09:35:00 :( 09:35:01 but the type expansion for a list all of whose elements are of a particular type is infinite 09:35:17 ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 09:35:31 instead, when accessing elements of the list, declare the expression accessing that element as having the desired type 09:35:47 elias` [n=me@resnet-pat-254.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:36:06 will do that way, thanks 09:36:14 see `the' 09:36:30 *scrib* 09:37:08 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:09 years ago, I once tried to declare things as being of type #1=(cons fixnum #1#) and was surprised it didn't work 09:37:13 not sure what I was thinking 09:37:20 alrighty then 09:37:38 haha, hi 09:37:42 hunchentoot has been getting a little better now 09:37:43 *schaueho* was mixing arrays and sequences 09:38:39 hefner: sendfile is fast, but for larger files (2MB+) and when hunchentoot is running under a single-threaded task-master 09:39:20 with a 70k png they all perform the same: default hunchentoot, apache and ht+sendfile 09:41:26 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as X-Scale 09:42:14 if you just want typep to work, there's actually a trick to define lists of a certain type -- but it won't help the compiler optimise 09:42:29 but that's for 10 simulatenous connections (ab -n 1000 -c 10 http://foo/70k.png) 09:42:39 btw, someone was asking some time ago about compiler-related topics for phd/other academic work? 09:43:15 *however*, for a single connections + keep alive, ht+sendfile is a bloody beast. did 800 requests per second ;-P 09:44:01 though it's debatable if this new abomination is hunchentoot still 09:44:49 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 09:44:57 ab -n 1000 -c 1; just single serial requests makes apache a little slower than ht+sendfile 09:45:07 so apache is not using sendfile after all 09:45:10 hey fusss, generally you'll get better performance for small files like that if you cache them in memory and write them out with the headers in one go 09:45:31 ilitirit: i thought so too, but not at all 09:45:54 hunchentoot tests has an "image from ram" example, the frank zappa image. no difference. 09:47:35 i don't understand why apache is bad with a 3MB file. just 4 requests per second, at any concurrency level. weird. 09:47:53 and this is on a 100MiB lan 09:49:09 fusss: have you tested mmap+sendfile? Like making sure the file is loaded into cache and then using sendfile? 09:49:23 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:49:31 p_l: no, not yet 09:49:42 that wouldn't be too useful for my intended uses 09:49:49 elias` [n=me@resnet-pat-254.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:50:01 i have thousands of banner ads to serve, can't fit them all into memory 09:51:28 and it's too soon for an LRU caching scheme, since the ads are not universally shown to everybody, but every "segment" has its own ads, etc. 09:51:32 are they simple static files? 09:53:11 standard IAB sizes, yes 09:53:28 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:53:31 I recall there were some specially designed http servers just as "helpers" for dynamic ones, supporting only HTTP get etc. and fiendishly fast 09:54:11 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 09:54:42 Drutschel et al. wrote tiny, super fast "academic" webservers. but web server performance metrics got overhauled and redefined with nginx. that fucker is *good* :-) 09:59:21 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-3be2658ec41644c3] has joined #lisp 10:00:09 i'm writing something in hunchentoot for the first time. i got some pages to display, but the page i'm working on now shows me a blank page. how/where do i see the error logs? 10:00:16 afk 10:00:29 i tried giving :debug t to the hunchentoot:start, but that didn't help 10:00:54 spradnyesh: what ht version are you using? 10:01:11 spradnyesh: (setf *message-log-path* #p"/file/where/you/want/errors/to/go") 10:01:15 aerique: 1 sec, lemme check 10:02:06 aerique: how do i check the version of a certain package installed through clbuild? 10:02:11 fusss: thanks, will try that 10:03:13 spradnyesh: read the *.asd file or the README or packages.lisp, or maybe it's encoded into the project directory name or path ;-) 10:03:21 -!- schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-39aff62307d3afb2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:03:21 spradnyesh: well, i was basically wondering whether you were using a pre- or post 1.0 version since I don't have expereince with the latter. 10:03:32 spradnyesh: also, check this if you haven 10:03:42 it's 1.0.0 10:03:48 spradnyesh: also, check this if you haven't: http://www.weitz.de/hunchentoot/#logging 10:04:01 aerique: is there a good reason why you aren't on 1.0.0? don't you know it's sweet? hmm? 10:04:04 aerique: thanks 10:04:13 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:34 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 10:04:39 I have 1 (actually 2) more questions related to web programming on hunchentoot/lisp 10:04:44 specifically with cl-who 10:04:54 spradnyesh: my answer is for 1.0.0. all my answers to the pressing questions in life are all for hunchentoot v.1.0.0. 10:05:03 fusss, i mean you write the headers and the body in one syscall (make sure your socket buffers are big enough) 10:05:30 i learned from stassats the other day that one can't write macros to generate cl-who statments which is a shame :( 10:05:31 fusss: i haven't been doing web things lately at all but my code worked with 0.15.7 and I didn't feel like porting it :) 10:05:52 ilitirit: i haven't set any socket options, and that's precisely why i have errors burning through my log file. cheers! :-) 10:06:01 however, i couldn't get the defpackage and defsystem to work with cl-who either 10:06:22 they work as long as there are no cl-who: in the code 10:06:31 but break down as soon as that is found 10:06:40 anyone had a similar experience with cl-who? 10:06:45 spradnyesh: i don't think you remember it right, regarding inability to wrap cl-who with your own macros. 10:07:07 spradnyesh: paste 10:07:18 fusss: 1 min, searching for the relevant link 10:07:57 fusss: this is what i read http://lisp-univ-etc.blogspot.com/2009/03/cl-who-macros.html 10:08:55 -!- eirik_ is now known as eirik 10:09:02 anyways, i've taken that with a grain of salt (atleast for now, since i'm still just starting to learn about lisp and other things related to lisp). probably i'll be in a better position to take care of it in a few days/weeks 10:09:54 the pressing problem for me now is the inability to write a .asd file for my current project which is web related and hence involves a lot of cl-who: 10:10:04 spradnyesh: i'm on my 28th hour of being awake, not gonna read a long blog atm, but i think your fears of a cl-who show-stopper will be proven unfounded :-) 10:10:31 why can't you use just USE the cl-who package? 10:10:34 fusss: i hope so 10:10:55 as i said, i'm still a newbie 10:10:57 (defpackage :spradnyesh-site (:use :cl :hunchentoot :cl-who :sb-alien)) 10:10:59 hey fusss, advert: my server http://tlug.jp/meetings/2008/11/serving-dynamic-webpages-in-less-then-a-millisecond_john-fremlin_handout.pdf 10:11:12 and am trying to learn a lot of things simultaneously 10:11:32 i tried the :use cl-who, and that works fine 10:11:42 however, it works fine in an independent file 10:12:06 when i create a .asd file for the system, and say (require 'spradnyesh-site), things don't compile 10:12:37 ilitirit: bookmarked! :-) don't mind me if i trouble start .. RSN :-P 10:12:38 and i've found out that if i comment all function calls of type cl-who:, it gets loaded (by require) properly 10:13:16 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 10:13:35 spradnyesh: you realize it's not customary to call cl-who "functions" right? it's just one macro call and a few, rarely needed helpers. 10:14:45 fusss: i realise that, what i meant was that i was getting compilation errors. and only for want of a better name, i called it a function ;) 10:14:56 spradnyesh: and *.asd files are just copied around like makefiles. you don't write them from scratch (i don't even know the syntax for *.asds, i just edit other people's) 10:15:57 fusss: i did that too. i copied it from http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html (this too i learned about on this list itself) 10:16:32 anyways, the point is that the code gets "required" (if i may say so) in absence of cl-who helpers, and does not in their presence 10:16:44 fusss pasted "small hunchentoot project starter" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80013 10:16:59 i tried searching online for codes that did get compiles properly, but didn't find anything useful 10:17:20 do you have your lisp running now? 10:17:28 fusss: saw your paste. that is *exactly* what i have in my asd file 10:17:29 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 10:17:31 yup, i do 10:17:55 (defpackage :site (:use :cl :hunchentoot :cl-who)) 10:17:59 (in-package :site) 10:18:21 that'll go in package.lisp or on the repl? 10:19:03 it works fine on repl, and i am in package :site now 10:19:10 the first form can go intp package.lisp, and the second goes in a file name PROJECT-NAME: "site.lisp", for example. 10:19:53 do this in the repl (defparameter *site* (make-instance 'acceptor :port 8080)) 10:19:53 then (start *site*) 10:21:06 doing, 1 sec plz 10:22:08 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:23:23 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:24:34 you should be able to see the hunchentoot default page when you visit http://localhost:8080/ 10:25:53 fusss: yes, i am 10:26:32 (define-easy-handler (greet :uri "/say-hi") (to) 10:26:32 however, please note that i was able to do this all before too (as i said i've already written a few working pages) 10:26:32 (format nil "Hello ~a~%" (or to "stranger"))) 10:26:56 oh! :-) 10:27:04 the rpoblem i'm having is that i'm not able to do a "(require 'site)" if the site.lisp contains any cl-who: thingy 10:27:14 i guess you missed some of my posts above 10:27:30 and sorry if i wasn't clear earlier 10:28:37 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-66-143-164-171.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:55 well, if your :site package uses cl-who you should be able to call with-html-output-to-string, etc. without a prefix 10:29:42 (defmacro with-html (&body body) 10:29:44 `(with-html-output-to-string (*standard-output* nil :prologue t :indent t) 10:29:46 ,@body)) 10:30:04 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-234-19.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 10:30:37 sorry. that's the macro I use. never needed to call cl-who specific functions or macros, except for STR and CONC. 10:30:53 1 more related Q. if my defpackage says (:use :cl-who), do i need to (require 'cl-who) in site.lisp? 10:31:18 (define-easy-handler (foo :uri "/foo") () (with-html (:html (:head (:title "Foo")) (:body ..))))) etc. 10:32:08 you don't require anything. if you have a *.asd file, you do asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :site. the point of asdf is that it loads your project's dependcies for you. 10:32:18 i guess, you're still not getting my real problem. the scenario is that if i have everything in site.lisp (even the defpackage part). it compiles works fine 10:32:32 however, things get nasty when a .asd file comes into play 10:32:48 even the .asd works fine if there is no cl-who involved 10:33:12 but the (require 'site) does not work if site contains a call to _any_ cl-who helper/macro 10:34:35 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:35:44 so what i wanted to ask is, when i have a .asd file, i do a "c-c c-k" on it, and then say (require 'site) in the repl. right? or am i missing something here? 10:36:44 in-code-we-trust [n=Miranda@213.129.54.27] has joined #lisp 10:36:54 fusss annotated #80013 "hunchentoot project starter" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80013#1 10:37:13 cracki [n=cracki@42-080.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:37:30 -!- in-code-we-trust [n=Miranda@213.129.54.27] has left #lisp 10:37:48 fusss: saw that paste of yours. lemme try that out 10:40:03 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:03 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:40:05 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 10:41:09 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483BF8D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:17 fusss: that did work. thanks a million. now lemme see what i'm doing wrong/different in my code 10:41:36 it might be better to push your current directory into asdf:*central-registry* instead of making symlinks everytime, imo 10:42:54 fusss: i still haven't reached the stage where i've made symlinks 10:43:06 still doing it manually from repl everytime 10:43:56 there are also small utilities that will add all the asds in a directory and its children to *central-registry*; i have a few for wi32 here .. 10:43:56 not cool 10:44:35 use your .sbclrc 10:45:01 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:45:50 i still have to _make_ one. as i said, i've started with lisp only a few weeks back. and am still learning all these nooks and corners. and god, there's so much to learn. but it's all interesting and pretty amazing 10:46:21 fusss annotated #80013 ".sbclrc" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80013#2 10:46:49 few weeks? woah, you're good 10:47:32 fusss: thanks and thanks (for the .sblrc file, and for the compliment) 10:47:43 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:43 i used the CLISP repl in a DOS box for months. and i thought i was in heaven because it had a history feature and tab completion :-S 10:47:59 np 10:48:00 hehehe 10:48:04 cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 10:48:08 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 10:48:24 are you good on an ajax example? hmmm? ;-) 10:49:17 i dind't really understand that Q 10:49:24 did you mean to ask if i was working on one 10:49:30 or whether i'm good with ajax? 10:49:47 well, currently, the answer to both the interpreted Qs is no :) 10:50:10 i've just taken a sample web project to work on and pave my way through 10:50:20 haven't even written my first macro yet 10:50:34 tried to do with cl-who and found that it couldn't be done :( 10:50:52 i was gonna get you a "starter kit" for ajax, but it's too verbose and you're probably better off with jquery 10:51:03 then tried to do with defclass, and this list pointed me to defclass-star (which i still have to read up) 10:51:28 fusss: i've worked with yui in my current company, and it's not too difficult to use 10:51:36 but i'm not pretty good with it yet 10:51:39 who uses defclass*? who write cl-who macros? nobody :-) 10:52:00 i had RSI trying to customize the YUI calendar, went with jquery 10:52:10 actually, now (for the past few months) i'm trying to move from backend work to frontend 10:52:43 *fusss* makes arabic web apps; everything hast to be rendered right to left. our calendar is at 1400s, etc. 10:52:48 so *lots* of changes happening in my life now (might as well say, i'm currently an extreme case of "who moved my chese" philosophy ;) ) 10:53:14 and to add to that i'm trying to learn lisp 10:53:16 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-234-19.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 10:53:20 heh 10:53:33 moved from c -> java -> python -> php -> lisp 10:53:47 a sine wave of progress 10:53:52 hopefully, lisp should give me nirvana O:-) 10:54:19 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-182-191-195.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:19 php is something i don't like, but do coz the company that i work for uses it 10:54:37 i liked python, but now that i'm learning lisp, i dont' feel like going back to it 10:55:02 *it = python 10:55:34 *spradnyesh* emacs hung for the past few minutes. it has done this to me atleast 4 times in the past 2 hours :( 10:55:48 what OS? 10:56:01 linux 10:56:17 gui? 10:56:19 happened when i tried to paste something from the browser 10:56:21 yup 10:56:27 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:57:13 i used linux for the past 12 years, via telnet or ssh :-P 10:58:01 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 10:58:15 so you use mac/windows as your personal desktop for all this time? 10:58:30 i started with telnet, because we didn't have a KVM switch in my country, and it made sense to just run a cable 10:58:41 yeah, XP 10:59:06 neat 10:59:32 i had freebsd as my main desktop 2001 - 2004, then needed to shave, shower, and generally clean up to join the work force :-P 10:59:45 spradnyesh: i strongly recommend against defclass-star 11:00:29 i know there are people here who like it, but (1) you still need to learn normal defclass (2) people who don't use defclass-star will hate reading your code if you use it 11:00:52 or anything with a star (usually a footnote disclaimer in tiny font: "warning: order dependent code") 11:01:00 nikodemus: i'm not using it. i just read about it from this list. yet to learn about it before starting to use it ;) 11:01:15 or not using it 11:01:23 the hate is strong in me right now, having recently run into cl-def 11:01:48 thanks for the warning however. really appreciate the help that i'm getting from this list 11:01:56 direct from obfuscation 101: how to make code hard to read for people used to idiomatic common lisp 11:02:10 heh 11:02:13 s/list/channel/ 11:03:11 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 11:03:24 hello 11:04:03 hey fe[nl]ix 11:04:15 hi fusss 11:05:06 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:05:53 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp002.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 11:06:29 cautiousfool [n=user@68-184-214-75.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:07:16 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 11:08:01 -!- cracki [n=cracki@42-080.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:08:37 -!- jimi_hendrix [n=jimi_hen@unaffiliated/jimihendrix/x-735601] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:10:37 When I (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :cxml) in ccl, it says ":VERSION is an invalid initarg to INITIALIZE-INSTANCE for #.". Any ideas? 11:13:53 minion: lisppaste 11:13:53 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 11:13:58 paste the backtrace there 11:14:04 sounds like an asdf bug 11:14:31 cautiousfool: something is doing (make-instance 'asdf:missing-dependency ... :version ..) i.e. asdf wants to tell you some cxml dependency is the wrong version but it can't even do that :-) 11:14:48 but could be a bug in a defsystem or asdf extension 11:14:57 yeah 11:15:11 cautiousfool: what version of ccl are you using ? 11:15:14 there is no asdf extension involved. perhaps the asdf shipped by ccl is too old to be able to display that message properly 11:15:30 but then the class should be 'missing-dependency-of-version 11:16:19 fe[nl]ix: 1.3-r11936 (DarwinX8664) 11:16:35 i'd still like to see the backtrace 11:17:23 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:54 -!- ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Success] 11:18:39 diff confirms that the ASDF in ccl 1.3 is out-of-date and has this bug 11:18:49 cautiousfool pasted "asdf cxml backtrace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80014 11:19:29 lichtblau: So updating asdf should fix it? 11:20:11 try it 11:20:13 yes, take asdf from CCLAN CVS or SBCL CVS and drop it into ccl/tools/. 11:20:31 (or just ignore this issue) 11:21:23 or better report to CCL 11:23:10 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp002.studby.uio.no] has quit [Client Quit] 11:28:21 younder [n=jthing@084202159110.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 11:30:49 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-180-144-124.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:31:14 minion: chant 11:31:15 MORE RELATED 11:32:16 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit ["Be back later"] 11:32:34 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C095.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:47 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 11:34:56 if anybody from CCL is here: please, can you make sure your builds work on non-SSE2 linux boxes? 11:35:49 fusss: AFAIK ccl *requires* SSE2 11:36:01 fusss: they don't work 11:36:02 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:36 fusss: it's not a mistake, it's intentional 11:36:45 fusss: use x86-64? :P 11:37:06 alright (to it being intentional, not to getting x64 ;-) 11:37:54 given that CCL seems rather mac-centric, it's no surprise 11:38:00 p_l: I was a Progeny Linux certified IA64 developer. Not touching this kludge ever! 11:38:30 fusss: We could use a SBCL IA64 port :D 11:38:45 *fusss* wanted to tell a dark joke about being "certified" in the dead itanic, realizes Progeny is dead too. 11:39:50 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-3be2658ec41644c3] has left #lisp 11:40:00 I recall someone explaining on 9fans that if you are directly generating code, instead of going through C or similar, you can get quite nice results with IA64 for higher-level languages, like Lisp or Haskell 11:40:23 "can" or "do"? 11:40:30 as in, does it require the SSC? 11:41:08 SSC? 11:41:14 minion: ssc 11:41:15 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``ssc''. 11:41:18 bah 11:41:23 sufficiently smart compiler 11:41:38 ah 11:41:40 not that bad :D 11:42:17 he had examples written in assembly of constructs not existing in C/Fortran and similar, like closures etc 11:43:47 multiple return balues, is the obvious one 11:43:52 *values 11:44:52 MMIX also have multiple return values (but I'm pretty sure someone would scream seeing function returning >100 values...) 11:45:38 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:46:04 dfd- [n=domenico@89.118.7.233] has joined #lisp 11:46:07 hello 11:46:09 multiple-values-limit is at least 20, so 20 would be ok 11:47:02 stassats: well, MMIX returns values in registers, so even one value can return more than one register :-) 11:47:34 How can I compute the max value of a list of integers? MAX only works when I know the number of integers I have with (MAX i1 i2 i3 ...). 11:47:51 (reduce #'max list) ? 11:48:34 stassats, cool thanks 11:48:48 I was going to use a macro to splice the list inside (MAX) :) 11:49:42 dfd-: (if (< (length args) call-arguments-limit) (apply (function max) args) (reduce (function max) args)) 11:49:50 dfd-: no need for a macro in either case. 11:50:08 Ginei_Morioka [n=irssi_lo@78.112.42.110] has joined #lisp 11:50:11 pjb: well, checking length is too slow 11:50:45 Not if you know it at compilation time ;-) 11:51:05 *p_l* decides that MMIX calling convention is definitely fun and weird and hopes it won't be too crazy in hw 11:51:16 then you need a compiler macro 11:52:42 slashus2 [n=dex@74-141-105-89.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 11:53:38 From CL I'm talking to a C++ 3D engine and a C++ physics engine. It's definitely tempting to start writing a CL physics engine :) 11:54:23 -!- brill [n=brill@0x573863d4.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 11:54:29 aerique: I presume they don't export C interfaces? :D 11:54:38 aerique: which could be much more efficient than one in C++, since you could do symbolic processing to avoid doing too much numerical processing. 11:55:18 FWIW, even with the latest asdf (Revision 1.131) from git, I get the same error trying to load-op cxml. But after installing closure-common, I don't see an error. 11:56:28 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 11:56:54 p_l: the physics engine does but the 3d engine doesnt 11:57:16 pjb: yeah, that's part of my reasoning besides it being a good excuse to start a project like that 11:57:31 aerique: what engines are you using? 11:57:38 p_l: ogre3d 11:58:15 p_l: and bullet for physics 11:59:54 meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:35 -!- Guest85661 [n=irssi_lo@78.115.215.201] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:03:10 Is it better to use (reduce #'max list) or (apply #'max list) ? 12:03:26 The first one seems to do more useless operations.. 12:03:26 dfd-: check the condition! 12:03:30 reduce will give you a single element.. 12:03:38 will apply do the same? 12:03:44 Yes. 12:03:54 reduce is more general 12:03:56 But apply doesn't work always. 12:04:02 pjb, right.. apply won't work with too many arguments.. 12:04:18 but in the general case, it is faster, right? 12:04:26 It could be yes. 12:04:36 But the implementation may also optimize heavily reduce. 12:04:40 anyway max on many arguments will do the same 12:05:38 Wouldn't have it been better to implement MAX as taking a list instead of &rest arguments? 12:05:39 HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 12:05:49 no 12:06:07 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78.59.166.221] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:06:07 *dfd-* cellphone, brb 12:07:51 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:14:01 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:14:45 hmm... Lisp & (disassemble ... ) would be great tools to teach people about optimalization :D 12:15:56 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:54 Ogedei` [n=user@78.52.239.183] has joined #lisp 12:17:44 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.239.183] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:19:21 -!- cautiousfool [n=user@68-184-214-75.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:20:22 -!- guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:20:25 guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 12:23:29 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [No route to host] 12:23:38 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:34 Slime M-. says "No such file or directory". How do I set up the paths? 12:25:47 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@nttkyo454079.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:27:23 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:29:32 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:30:40 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 12:31:01 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:23 -!- slashus2 [n=dex@74-141-105-89.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [] 12:34:26 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 12:35:42 for sbcl sources? 12:35:59 yes. 12:36:14 adjust (logical-pathname-translations "SYS") 12:36:18 c|mell [n=cmell@x250027.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 12:36:41 It's looking in /scratch/src/sbcl.release..., which doesn't exist. 12:37:10 stassats: in emacs, that is? 12:37:15 in sbcl 12:38:22 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:38:55 stassats: ok, thanks. 12:38:58 evaluate (logical-pathname-translations "SYS") to see its value and do (setf (logical-pathname-translations "SYS") ...) 12:39:10 stassats: yeah. 12:40:29 stassats: I don't know why they were set incorrectly at first, are these standard paths, or something? 12:41:23 they are set upon build 12:42:05 ok, so if I download binaries rather than source I need to reconfig these. 12:43:21 if you have sources anyway, why not build it yourself? 12:43:38 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:44:46 see ... sbcl/src/code/target-pathname.lisp for where sys:src is defined 12:45:07 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:45:34 benny99 [n=benny@p5486B81D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:43 I guess I could do a build. Do I need to set some build options to enable UTF-8? 12:47:07 it's enabled by default 12:47:15 but you might want to enable threads 12:47:51 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-182-191-195.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 12:48:25 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has quit [] 12:48:42 meningbd: no, but you haveto enable threading 12:48:55 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@nttkyo505105.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:49:53 Do you mean sbcl level or OS level threads? I recall using threads with the binary download. 12:50:27 yeas, read INSTALL file on how to enable them 12:50:57 well, i meant OS level 12:51:04 there is no green threads 12:52:22 ok. 12:52:45 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-155-65.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:53:27 -!- dfd- [n=domenico@89.118.7.233] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 12:54:09 But I recall using sb-thread:make-thread with the binary download... 12:54:21 so? 12:54:56 The binary download comes with threading enabled 12:55:56 "* improvement: SBCL now emits a compiler note where stack allocation was requested but could not be provided." .. this is excellent; i've been wondering about this (sbcl-1.0.28.35) 12:55:57 I the soure distribution you have to set :sb-thread in *features* in the way described in INSTALL 12:56:17 source 12:56:48 thanks for repeating me 12:57:49 sorry, you keep beating me to it :) 12:58:04 I see. 13:00:38 carbocalm [n=user@204.101.159.235] has joined #lisp 13:01:05 kleppari_ [n=spa@jaki.tolva.is] has joined #lisp 13:01:12 Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:01:18 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633642.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 13:02:02 lnostdal: yeah, building to test it 13:03:24 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-145-45.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:08:49 -!- mvillene1ve is now known as mvilleneuve 13:09:02 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@99.39.6.238] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:10:11 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:10:31 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:10:41 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:42 borism [n=boris@195-50-204-38-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 13:12:09 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:13:44 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 13:13:54 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195.50.197.60] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:14:20 Merimac [n=5bcfd14d@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c86d1244d448c7f1] has joined #lisp 13:14:31 Hello all 13:14:35 ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 13:17:53 bombshelter13_ [n=greg@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:54 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-39-6-238.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:18:55 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:21:51 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:23:03 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-28-46.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:24:26 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 13:24:40 compiling usocket triggers something that looks strange in src/code/unix.lisp line 611 unix-fast-select calls int-syscall, but int-syscall is undefined .. i think this is related to the defmacro -> sb!xc:defmacro patch in 1.0.28.34 but i dunno 13:25:08 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-204-38-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:54 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@jaki.tolva.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:26:35 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:25 wasabi___ [n=wasabi@nttkyo505105.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:27:52 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has joined #lisp 13:27:54 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.17.172] has joined #lisp 13:28:14 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-3-35.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 13:29:04 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:38 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-56-173.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:32:53 Vegan [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.232] has joined #lisp 13:33:01 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:35:12 hello rsynnott & gigamonk` it's mib_098ae7cz from yesterday ! 13:35:41 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD9E2F693.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 13:36:16 about my Practical Excercise of yesterday I did that (defun sslist (list)(cond ((null list) ())(t (cons(cons(car lis)())(sslist(cdr list)))))) 13:37:20 s/lis/list/ 13:37:52 so with this when I have sslist '(a r n a u d) it return ((A) (R) (N) (A) (U) (D)) 13:38:21 this could be done with (mapcar #'list '(a b c d e)) 13:38:32 stassats yes (defun sslist (list)(cond ((null list) ())(t (cons(cons(car list)())(sslistt(cdr list)))))) 13:38:44 kotarak [n=mb@C5380.c.strato-dslnet.de] has joined #lisp 13:38:50 Merimac: so? 13:39:19 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 13:39:28 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-99-81.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:39:32 but how can I do same when I pass sslist '(arnaud) without space ? 13:40:13 Merimac: Would you be able to do that if they were strings? 13:40:20 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@nttkyo505105.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:40:23 you have a symbol arnaud, you can get it's name with symbol-name, it will give you a string 13:40:31 s/it's/its/ 13:41:08 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-31-49.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 13:41:36 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-75-238.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:41:43 pjb no it for a list ! 13:41:59 s/it/it's 13:42:33 ignas [n=ignas@78.59.166.221] has joined #lisp 13:42:36 Merimac: can you get a character from a string? If you had "ARNAUD", could you get "A"? Could you get "R"? etc? 13:44:36 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:44:52 Merimac: when you need to do something on some type of lisp object, you may browse the CLHS chapter, section dictionary, about that type. Eg. here you could check what functions you have to process symbols,(Chapter Symbols), or to process strings (Chapter Strings). 13:45:01 pjb with my fonction I can only get ((A) (R) (N) (A) (U) (D)) when I give arnaud with space between each space ! 13:45:20 What do you use? 13:45:35 danlei [n=user@pD9E2E204.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:48 pjb Euhh ! LispWork 13:45:50 Merimac: hint: remember that a string is a vector of characters, and a vector is an array. 13:46:02 I mean, in your function, what lisp function do you use? 13:46:03 s/LispWork/LispWorks 13:46:27 So when browsing the dictionaries, also mind browsing those of the chapters of the supertypes. 13:46:39 I use sslist 13:47:09 Merimac: ok. In (a r n a u d) there is no parenthesis and no space! 13:47:15 wich use cond, car, cdr 13:47:27 (a r n a u d) is a list of symbols. No question of parenthesis nor space. 13:47:41 ok 13:47:58 now, you need to do the same with a vector of characters 13:48:01 Assume you have "ARNAUD", a string. How can you get #\A ? 13:48:49 I don't know ! 13:49:08 Merimac: that's why I advised you to scan the dictionary of the chapter about String, and also Vectors and Arrays. 13:49:14 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-28-46.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:50:10 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_string.htm and http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_arrays.htm 13:50:11 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_string.htm 13:50:14 I so I move on http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ do read 13:50:15 damn 13:51:39 Sorry !!! You have knowledge, and I have difficulty with English and Lisp :/ 13:51:41 beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-42-186.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:52:02 Merimac: we can go on #lisp-fr if you will. 13:52:07 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 13:52:32 pjb 1 person ^^ 13:52:55 pjb did you speak french ? 13:55:56 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 13:56:32 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.17.172] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:57:28 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.8.41] has joined #lisp 13:59:39 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:33 \quit 14:01:35 -!- dan_b [n=dan@82.68.20.86] has quit ["leaving"] 14:05:16 carbocal` [n=user@204.101.159.235] has joined #lisp 14:06:48 -!- carbocalm [n=user@204.101.159.235] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:06:51 -!- beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-56-173.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:07:04 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:07:08 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 14:09:59 nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:06 G'morning all. 14:10:41 hi nyef 14:12:13 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202159110.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:12:29 younder [n=jthing@084202159110.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 14:12:30 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.232] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:14:23 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 14:15:26 lisppaste? 14:16:19 lisppaste: help 14:16:19 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 14:16:37 slashus2 [n=dex@74-141-105-89.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 14:17:01 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 14:19:11 sqweek [n=none@203-206-65-102.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 14:21:59 nyef: You're looking for an easy job today again? 14:22:40 I suspect I might be busy today, but might have some time, why? 14:24:02 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:24:21 There should be a pprint-dispatch-entry for LOOP which makes sure that no too loop clauses are printed on the same line (and hence may be truncated) 14:24:22 ok, so i have one project in lisp, which i wrote two or three years ago. it runs as a daemon, and every now and then it would run out of file descriptors due to my reliance on trivial-sockets (which leaks them under certain failure conditions) 14:25:13 about 9 months ago i switched most of the code to sb-bsd-sockets instead, and since then haven't had to touch it. 14:25:43 I'm definately not up for hacking the pprinter today. Is this in the bug tracker yet? 14:26:56 nyef: Nope. I'll submit it later along with two, or three other sub optimalities. 14:27:26 however, in the meantime i was coerced by my package manager into upgrading sbcl. today i discovered my daemon had hit the same file descriptor problem, so, i went to restart it with the new version of sbcl and... 14:28:06 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:28:10 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.8.41] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:28:12 spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@117.192.17.243] has joined #lisp 14:28:21 sqweek: coerced ? 14:28:57 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:29:00 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 14:29:10 Greetings. 14:29:19 hi tmh 14:29:31 everything worked! well, after i cleared some stale fasls. maybe it's not such a good sign for open source that i *expected* everything to go to crap, but nevertheless my sincere thanks to the sbcl devs :) 14:30:20 Does anyone why sbcl.git at repo.or.cz's gitweb lags behind? 14:30:23 fe[nl]ix: i think it was a vuln in some library package that sbcl eventually depended on 14:30:27 -!- kotarak [n=mb@C5380.c.strato-dslnet.de] has quit [] 14:30:57 tcr: Because it's mirrored from the boinkor.net git, which is mirrored from the CVS, and thus has even more delay? 14:31:07 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-245.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:31:28 -!- meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:31:52 sqweek: libc? 14:32:34 jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 14:32:54 tcr: I think that their server is overworked so they update the mirrors only every couple of days or so 14:33:22 -!- luis` [n=user@r42.eu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:33:47 pkhuong: i don't *think* it was glibc. this time ;) 14:34:10 sqweek: SBCL doesn't depend on very many libraries. 14:34:32 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:37:34 i wonder if it is an erroneous dependency: gtar-base-1.20/+REQUIRED_BY:sbcl-1.0.16 14:38:17 nikodemus pasted "compared to what current SBCL gives, does this seem reasoable?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80023 14:39:38 gtar... yeah, by asdf-install 14:39:45 yep, just found the reference 14:40:32 Is there any link to https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/ in sbcl.org? 14:40:39 not yet 14:40:48 since it's still not "official" 14:41:22 nikodemus: Is that QUOTES in the string literal or is it ~S with 'quote? 14:41:38 s/QUOTES/"QUOTE"/ 14:41:43 schaueho [n=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3bfc7ba68c96d3af] has joined #lisp 14:41:44 literal 14:41:45 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:41:50 Then make it CL:QUOTE 14:41:56 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:42:12 hm 14:42:58 as far as I'm concerned launchpad could me made official. A clear process would be good, though. 14:43:02 is that really necessary? semantically the upcase there is more along the lines of BOLD AND SHOUTING than SYMBOL 14:43:13 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:44:14 nikodemus: but you do mean CL:QUOTE. 14:44:25 I always wondered why they used EQL in type specifier rather than QUOTE. (Hmm most probably because of eql-specifiers which would otherwise look rather weird) 14:46:07 tcr: the value is evaluated at load-time 14:46:07 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 14:46:27 (eql (my-foo)) is a legal eql specifier 14:46:44 oh, you mean type -- not the CLOS 14:46:55 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:30 well, EQL _specializers_ seem like sufficient motivation to me :) 14:47:52 mib_sndy6v24 [n=5bcfd14d@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0e58c4044a4fa287] has joined #lisp 14:47:56 but they're different to each other as you've just shown 14:48:40 aside from ~S 'quote, any other quibbles? 14:48:59 or potential for controversy? 14:49:43 tcr: MEMBER vs EQL types make more sense than MEMBER vs QUOTE types 14:50:54 also (check-type foo 'integer) would then be legal but stupid as opposed to something the compiler can warn about 14:51:32 otoh (CONS 'FOO *) would look nice 14:52:33 Is evaluation the only thing special about special forms and operators? 14:53:44 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-31-126.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:53:46 tmh: macroexpandability too, I suppose. 14:54:41 hello 14:54:55 mib_sndy6v24 go on #lisp-fr 14:55:46 -!- mib_sndy6v24 is now known as Mokk 14:57:13 pkhuong: That's what prompted me to think about special forms. I noticed most macros(conditional, iteration) expand into the equivalent expression using special forms. It made me wonder if special forms have special implementation or simply special evaluation. 14:57:41 tmh: They're specially wired into the evaluator 14:58:15 If you are using macros to modify evaluation, are you in effect creating a new special form? 14:58:27 they could also be called primitive operators 14:59:01 -!- spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@117.192.17.243] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:59:31 tmh: yes. By the way, special forms may be implemented as macros, and CL macros may be implemented as special forms. 14:59:42 tmh: at some point the stack of turtles must end (and become metacircular) 14:59:45 tmh: fsvo "in effect", and "special" 15:00:09 tmh: They're not special in the sense that SPECIAL-OPERATOR-P is not true for them 15:00:58 Okay, thanks. I'm just trying to improve my understanding of CL, I'm not really going anywhere specific with this question. I appreciate the answers. 15:02:09 tcr: the difference is that it is expected that user programs know the CL special forms, while the macros should expand to special forms and function calls. 15:02:21 Oops s/tcr/tmh/ 15:02:54 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.10.140] has joined #lisp 15:03:15 kotarak [n=mb@C5458.c.strato-dslnet.de] has joined #lisp 15:04:17 s0ber_ [i=pie@114-45-227-97.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:16 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-55-57.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:08:53 can someone explain this to me https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/310175 ? 15:09:57 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 15:11:27 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-120.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:12:01 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:12:32 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.10.140] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:14:21 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:15:19 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-168-239-81.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:15:31 dysinger [n=tim@32.177.26.122] has joined #lisp 15:15:33 cornucopic [n=r00t@115.241.134.234] has joined #lisp 15:17:24 milanj [n=milan@93.86.112.17] has joined #lisp 15:17:32 mega1: I could guess. But nikodemus actually knows, so I'll leave it to him. 15:18:47 Assuming he's listening... 15:19:27 his backlog is. 15:20:04 Ah. So nikodemus is a logger, not the real nikodemus? 15:21:17 I don't know about you, but I have a couple hours worth of backlog on my client, along with a couple highlighting rules. 15:21:33 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:22:46 hey, I want to use a CL imp for inkscape extensions. In order to do that I need to operate on XML that comes from *standard-input*. CLISP and SBCL just evaluate what is on standard input. Can anyone think of a good way to work around this? 15:23:11 smithzv: READ-CHAR 15:23:44 smithzv: execute your own function. 15:24:16 pkhuong: oh, to derail the normal startup... gotcha 15:24:42 heyhoy 15:25:06 (loop for ch = (read-char) do (princ (char-upcase ch)) until (char= #\> ch)) RET RET 15:25:18 beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-25-228.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:25:21 gencgc has some additional sanity checking mechanisms that are not normally used, because they are quite expensive to use 15:25:33 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.21.6] has joined #lisp 15:25:50 -!- Mokk [n=5bcfd14d@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0e58c4044a4fa287] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 15:25:51 nikodemus: it's not clear how to test for that bug, or how/what bogus objects are created. 15:26:34 it's not clear whether it's a bug in itself or only causes the checks to fail ... 15:26:35 enabling those tests and running debug.impure.lisp should do it 15:26:36 pjb: The prob is that the imp already starts doing it's thing before I get control 15:27:25 smithzv: man clisp ; there's enough options to get control as soon as you want. Also you may write a script #!/usr/bin/clisp ... 15:27:27 i'll see if i can cook up a better description tomorrow 15:27:29 nikodemus: some of those checks used to fail with some regularity 15:27:50 not on linux when i tested them 15:27:58 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 15:28:47 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@247-78.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"] 15:29:46 -!- schaueho [n=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3bfc7ba68c96d3af] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 15:29:53 mega1: how much time ago? ISTR some bogosity being removed from the sanity checks. 15:30:19 pkhuong: years, I think, I haven't bothered with them since. 15:31:13 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:31:40 Gast_845_ [n=Gast_845@p4FCBE27A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:44 http://www.schwimmbadspiel.de/?refId=99828434 15:31:44 http://www.schwimmbadspiel.de/?refId=99828434 15:31:44 http://www.schwimmbadspiel.de/?refId=99828434 15:31:45 http://www.schwimmbadspiel.de/?refId=99828434 15:31:46 http://www.schwimmbadspiel.de/?refId=99828434 15:31:48 http://www.schwimmbadspiel.de/?refId=99828434 15:31:50 http://www.schwimmbadspiel.de/?refId=99828434 15:31:52 http://www.schwimmbadspiel.de/?refId=99828434 15:31:52 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Client Quit] 15:31:54 http://www.schwimmbadspiel.de/?refId=99828434 15:31:55 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o antifuchs 15:31:55 Dave2 [i=Dave2@freenode/staff/dave2] has joined #lisp 15:31:56 http://www.schwimmbadspiel.de/?refId=99828434 15:31:57 how is that supposed to work? 15:31:58 http://www.schwimmbadspiel.de/?refId=99828434 15:32:00 http://www.schwimmbadspiel.de/?refId=99828434 15:32:02 http://www.schwimmbadspiel.de/?refId=99828434 15:32:03 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has been kicked from #lisp 15:32:10 or that. 15:32:14 (gah, ban list full again) 15:32:17 antifuchs: thank you 15:32:30 Dave2: thanks for dropping in (: 15:32:35 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:33:07 You know it is really cheap to spam when small communities such as comp.lang.lisp and #lisp receive it. 15:33:10 froydnj: have you been told that usocket does not compile? 15:33:14 pjb: yes, not sure how to respond. Could I ask options should be passed to clisp? I am trying to use a #! script. 15:33:29 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 15:33:40 i'm pretty sure the bogus objects are a bug. if you have a word on the stack that looks like a pointer to eg. a cons on heap, backtrace, and then do stuff with the bogus object (eg. while printing the backtrace / error) you may end up with a bogus pointer in heap 15:33:42 mega1: no, I haven't. did I break something? 15:33:56 oh, the syscall macros? 15:34:00 lnostdal thinks it's 1.0.28.34 15:34:01 yes 15:34:23 Can someone recommend a good getting started tutorial for SBCL using emacs and slime? I have it installed. Just don't know how to use it. 15:34:23 simI use: #!/usr/bin/clisp -ansi -q -Kfull -E iso-8859-1 15:34:24 stupid libraries reaching into implementation innards :) 15:34:24 unix-fast-select is declared inline 15:34:34 and uses int-syscall. 15:34:46 pjb: Let me try that... 15:35:05 mega1: working on interrupt-safe concurrent hash tables, btw. I'm hoping to have identical/slightly better performance (and better space usage), and no locking -> no worries (: 15:35:11 sigh. I will fix. thanks for the pointer, mega1 15:35:21 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:30 no probs 15:35:48 lat: Can you use Emacs already? `C-h t' will open the Emacs tutorial 15:35:51 smithzv: I observe something strange indeed, it doesn't seem to have anything on *standard-input* ; you have to use *terminal-io* ... 15:36:01 i don't really know how to fix it aside from knowing which things on the stack really are pointers. maybe some wierd tainting scheme? 15:36:33 smithzv: try: ls | clisp -ansi -on-error exit -E iso-8859-1 -norc -q -x '(loop for ch = (read-char *terminal-io* nil nil) while ch do (princ (char-upcase ch)) finally (terpri) (finish-output) (ext:quit))' 15:36:34 pkhuong: whee! 15:36:41 EQ hash-tables as well? 15:37:10 eq hash, grr, that's where my schemes were lacking 15:37:11 tcr, yes. Only need to learn slime and sbcl. 15:37:12 surely it's trivial to find if a pointer is really valid? 15:37:32 smithzv: (for normal files, you may use read-line ; for xml it might be better to use read-sequence with a pre-allocated buffer, or read-char, since there's no newline normally in XML...) 15:37:51 Dave2: by the way - how can we arrange a larger ban list for #lisp? 15:38:17 nikodemus: No chaining, only (virtual) buckets and open addressing. *gc-epoch* is enough. 15:38:44 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-75-238.netcologne.de] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 15:40:13 pjb: Okay, clisp acts a bit weirdly, but thanks for getting me started. Thanks. 15:41:17 lat: Look into the doc/ directory in your slime source checkout 15:41:21 thomas__ [n=thomas@47-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:41:21 -!- beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-42-186.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:41:29 yeah, (compile nil '(lambda () (sb-unix:unix-fast-select 10 nil nil nil 1 1))) .. but not compiling it works, mega1 / frontier1 15:41:43 sorry, i meant froydnj 15:42:12 -!- kotarak [n=mb@C5458.c.strato-dslnet.de] has quit [] 15:43:47 Hey guys, I'm used to typing "ind-reg" to execute "indent-region". Now I've switched to icicles and the behavior is no longer there. Anyone knows how I can get it working with icicles? 15:44:03 thomas__: #emacs might know 15:44:19 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:44:33 ew, whoops - thought I was there. Sorry about that. 15:45:11 pkhuong: concurrent means that gethash, remhash are synchronized? 15:45:53 -!- Merimac [n=5bcfd14d@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c86d1244d448c7f1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:46:04 mega1: lock-free, modulo rehashes (where you don't really need a lock for correctness, so a soft lock is enough) 15:46:15 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:47:48 pkhuong: a lock-free hash table still can be thread safe or not. 15:48:17 sorry, synchronized means a hidden lock for me (blame java ;) 15:48:50 -!- carbocal` [n=user@204.101.159.235] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:49:06 so from the user's pov it's thread safe but it's implemented with mostly lock-free magic, right? 15:49:10 yes. 15:49:56 eq hash tables and maphash traversal rules always tripped me up when trying to make hash tables faster 15:50:50 whot .. you guys working on this stuff for SBCL? .. that is some crazy kick-ass stuff .. :o 15:51:31 tcr, ok. Thanks! 15:51:32 lnostdal: just a side-effect of some side projects. 15:51:43 I'm not. fu-streams take all my time :-) 15:51:45 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:51:53 -!- jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:55:20 kotarak [n=mb@C5501.c.strato-dslnet.de] has joined #lisp 15:55:34 pkhuong: can the synchronization be dropped without crashing gc? 15:57:12 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:15 yes. I won't need the GC to update chaining anymore; weak vectors would be enough. 15:57:47 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-9adeefd94ee9907d] has joined #lisp 15:57:53 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:58:08 for weak hash tables, that is. Otherwise, nothing special at all. 15:58:55 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:59:21 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:31 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:00:09 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-66-143-164-171.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:00:29 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-66-143-164-171.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:19 pkhuong: that slight performance gain is for the synhronozied or the unsynchronized case? 16:01:38 unsynchronised. 16:01:50 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-155-65.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["leaving"] 16:03:33 living on the bleeding edge hurts: usocket does not compile with sbcl head 16:04:09 attila_lendvai: I believe a fix is on its way. usocket used an internal function... 16:04:18 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:25 *attila_lendvai* reads the backlog 16:05:25 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:00 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:07:26 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 16:10:43 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 16:11:05 r00t_ [n=r00t@115.241.135.203] has joined #lisp 16:12:15 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78.59.166.221] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:12:27 -!- r00t_ is now known as amit 16:12:53 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:12:57 -!- amit is now known as Guest98791 16:13:26 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:45 *attila_lendvai* realized that others who use usocket are also living on the bleeding edge... :) 16:14:29 i don't use it for iomultiplexing so i'm good, attila_lendvai :) 16:14:51 ..or well, i don't use the wait--.. feature in it .. :P 16:15:12 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:38 luckily (?) i have to deal with an old codebase now which is still running on 1.0.12... 16:19:34 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-9adeefd94ee9907d] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:19:35 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 16:20:16 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.21.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:20:34 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:20:56 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:22:33 -!- thomas__ [n=thomas@47-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:22:45 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 16:22:48 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:22:54 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 16:23:25 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:23:36 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 16:24:28 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.15.30] has joined #lisp 16:24:59 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@115.241.134.234] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:25:17 -!- Guest98791 is now known as cornucopic 16:25:21 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202159110.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:25:36 younder [n=jthing@084202159110.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 16:26:50 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 16:28:51 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:28:52 -!- beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-25-228.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:30:45 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-55-57.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:31:36 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-174.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:31:49 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-55-57.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:31:52 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-25-228.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:31:58 Good evening. 16:32:21 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:32:49 willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:33:11 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 16:34:37 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-55-57.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:36:59 -!- nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:38 Hey Beach. 16:41:52 rjack_ [n=rjack@adsl-ull-234-19.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 16:43:54 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 16:44:03 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [] 16:44:22 alama [n=alama@c-76-102-151-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:43 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-234-19.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 16:44:50 -!- rjack_ is now known as rjack 16:45:22 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:46:14 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C095.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:46:46 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:47:50 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-55-57.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:47:51 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 16:48:19 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:31 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250027.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:44 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-55-57.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:46 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 16:51:50 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 16:52:35 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-167-159.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:16 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-3-35.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit ["..."] 16:59:01 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 16:59:08 dhoss [n=devin@65-101-228-211.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:09 -!- alama [n=alama@c-76-102-151-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:01:07 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-be4ef24b644b63ca] has joined #lisp 17:01:42 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 17:02:17 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:07:06 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:07:20 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 17:09:15 -!- dhoss [n=devin@65-101-228-211.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit ["leaving"] 17:11:19 alama [n=alama@c-76-102-151-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:21 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit ["Be back later"] 17:12:59 is there anyone from turkey/istanbul? 17:14:29 -!- kotarak [n=mb@C5501.c.strato-dslnet.de] has quit [] 17:14:41 projections_: there's vy, but he's not here yet 17:14:49 o really? 17:14:53 good then 17:14:59 im having hard times learning 17:15:01 :( 17:15:14 wish i was brighter:) 17:15:18 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:16:12 maybe he has a mate who can teach some maths and lisp together 17:16:24 or even himself 17:17:26 thanks btw fe[nl]ix 17:17:57 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:19:37 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 17:25:05 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:25:29 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C095.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:30 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:26:30 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@115.241.135.203] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:29:30 shelducks [n=prot@d142-59-60-123.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:48 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl244.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 17:32:27 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:33:10 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:16 dwave [n=ask@084202073175.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 17:35:34 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:39:32 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-13307.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 17:40:16 optikalmouse [n=user@bas1-toronto10-1279397938.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:41:42 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:55 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:42:56 anyone who built .38 already? 17:42:59 -!- semyon421 [n=semyon@217.67.122.44] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:45:10 nikodemus: SINGLE-WARNING-FOR-SINGLE-UNDEFINED-TYPE fails for me 17:45:10 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:45:29 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:44 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@neptune.pettomato.net] has left #lisp 17:48:33 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 17:48:58 -!- Ogedei` [n=user@78.52.239.183] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:49:40 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.15.30] has left #lisp 17:49:49 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:26 meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:43 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.239.183] has joined #lisp 17:56:06 nikodemus: But before you work on that, wait for my patch. 17:56:26 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 17:58:42 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.239.183] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:00:16 Spyderco2 [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 18:00:47 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.239.183] has joined #lisp 18:01:26 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:01:44 -!- Spyderco2 [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Client Quit] 18:01:57 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:02:03 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:27 -!- meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:04:17 jmbr [n=jmbr@121.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:09:27 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:10:19 meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:24 mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:42 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 18:14:49 tcr: i have it already -- one file accidentally left out of the commit 18:15:23 i don't agree with your diagnosis, though. if you check the source map on an old sbcl, there are multiple positions for (DEFUN ...) there for your test case 18:15:33 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:54 it's just that the source path in new build refers to the whole defun, whereas the old one had the (/ 1 0) pinpointed 18:16:52 and that is because F-E-C prefers *CURRENT-PATH* to NODE-SOURCE-PATH -- which makes the new binding in P-T-F lossy 18:17:09 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:21:19 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 18:21:41 -!- HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:22:22 Is there any convenient way of getting a list of the symbols in a lambda list? 18:22:36 ejs [n=eugen@57-76-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:22 (lambda-list-symbols '(a (&key b c) &optional (d nil) (e 'f))) => (a b c d e) 18:24:14 meingbg: you could try cl-walker 18:24:18 <_3b> might check alexandria, though it had something like that 18:24:41 <_3b> s/though/i thought/ 18:24:57 alexandria:parse-ordinary-lambda-list 18:25:01 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:25:13 (note that your example above is malformed) 18:25:42 nikodemus: how is it malformed? 18:25:44 or rather, it is a valid macro lambda-list 18:25:51 but not an ordinary lambda-list 18:26:22 nikodemus: I understand that. 18:26:37 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:26:59 right, the lambda-list parser doesn't handle macro lambda-lists 18:27:17 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.239.183] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:27:21 oh, I see. 18:28:42 sb-kernel:parse-defmacro-lambda-list might be a good starting point for rolling what you need 18:29:14 if you end up with something that has a clean API, please do submit it to alexandria 18:29:26 nikodemus: ok. 18:40:05 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-61-128-14.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:40:43 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-226-31-17.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:50 Hi all. 18:41:36 Hello mogunus! 18:41:44 You know column view, in the mac finder? I'm trying to figure out how to get a colum view widget for CLIM. 18:42:14 Put list views side by side. 18:42:30 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-234-19.51-151.net24.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:42:50 dreish_ [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 18:43:13 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 18:44:11 pjb: is that a presentation type? sorry, I'm a total CLIM noob... I don't even really know what to read to get up to speed. 18:45:29 silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-096-190.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:30 I've got the user-guide from Franz, but I'm using SBCL and mcclim. 18:45:48 mogunus: I don't know, I just tried McCLIM once. But if there's a List presentation showing a vertial list of items, then you can build a presentation showing the column view by aggregating lists. 18:46:02 *mogunus* nods 18:46:17 and bind arrow keys to switch between the lists 18:46:37 Yes. 18:46:44 grizzlor [n=Tyler@72.92.236.204] has joined #lisp 18:47:00 -!- grizzlor [n=Tyler@72.92.236.204] has quit [Client Quit] 18:49:26 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C095.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["I am Locutus of Borg! You will assist us!"] 18:49:55 -!- DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-226-31-17.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:50:23 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:50:46 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp124.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 18:51:25 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.239.183] has joined #lisp 18:51:31 -!- kuhzoo1 is now known as kuhzoo 18:53:04 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 18:59:29 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:59:50 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-66-143-164-171.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:00:01 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C095.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:14 Where can I find the presentation types available in McCLIM? 19:03:38 alama_ [n=alama@c-76-102-151-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:08 in a chest behind the dark curtain in that room few people have returned from 19:05:14 DarkRavin [n=thedarkr@adsl-226-30-65.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:44 -!- alama [n=alama@c-76-102-151-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:05:56 :-\ the manual doesn't really list them, just how to create new ones. 19:06:27 dbdkmezz [n=quassel@94-195-104-235.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:07:30 Don't know about the spec, but the lispworks user guide has a chapter "Predefined Presentation Types". 19:07:42 -!- dwave [n=ask@084202073175.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 19:08:36 It's also possible to walk the presentation types programmatically, either using clim functions, or -- in mcclim at least -- using the mop. Or by peeking into climi::*presentation-type-table*. 19:08:41 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:08:51 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:22 oh, cool. thanks. 19:11:19 hi, complete newbie question: I'm using slime, and I've just installed the library "mel-base" using asdf. Is there a way to load a help file telling me how to use the library? 19:12:01 Oh, I think I'm confused here. I want a gadget, not a presentation-type, because I want to replicate finder column view. a list-pane, maybe? does that list things top-to-bottom? 19:14:22 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:14:44 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has joined #lisp 19:15:08 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:15:39 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has joined #lisp 19:16:03 nikodemus: still here? 19:16:27 tombom [n=tombomp@82.31.41.188] has joined #lisp 19:16:49 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:16:57 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-64-31.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:17:07 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has joined #lisp 19:17:13 tombom_ [n=tombomp@82.31.41.188] has joined #lisp 19:17:38 yes 19:17:47 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:17:49 -!- tombom_ [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:18:06 nikodemus: what's the file your forgot to commit? sbcl.git lags still behind 19:18:08 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has joined #lisp 19:18:16 constraint.lisp 19:18:22 -!- alama_ [n=alama@c-76-102-151-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:18:31 ah ok. I'll compose my mail with my patch. 19:18:38 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:18:50 just send it in 19:18:58 mogunus: I have no idea what the finder looks like, but a list-pane lists things, yes. :-) 19:19:09 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has joined #lisp 19:19:10 i'm about ready to commit: fixes your test case as well 19:19:40 Although personally, I don't think that CLIM shines in the gadget department, so I found it more entertaining to build display stuff from scratch in CLIM than use the existing gadgets. 19:19:46 (constaints.lisp is not in yet either) 19:20:59 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:21:11 mogunus: have you checked flexi-trivial-dired for ideas? 19:21:17 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 19:21:28 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:21:36 oh, sb-introspect:function-lambda-list uses sb-pcl::generic-function-pretty-arglist and not sb-mop:generic-function-lambda-list 19:21:42 lichtblau: no, I have not. where can I find it? 19:21:43 no wonder i don't like it :) 19:22:12 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202159110.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 19:22:15 Would McCLIM be suitable for developing multi-frontend applications, e.g. getting a desktop and web interface from the same gui code? 19:22:31 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 19:22:53 Architecturaly, it's possible (there's a backend system in McCLIM). Now it's not necessarily the best solution. 19:23:18 tcr: what does your patch do? 19:23:36 meingbg, can become so -- there's a paper somewhere from the 1990's about using a web backend to CLIM. 19:23:52 probably requires some hacking though. 19:24:31 I'd suppose so, since I couldn't find anything about it at first google try... 19:24:51 mogunus: either http://common-lisp.net/project/ftd/darcs/ftd or http://common-lisp.net/~dlichteblau/inofficial/ftd . I don't recall which version works better. Screenshot is at http://blog.splittist.com/2006/10/. 19:25:08 lichtblau: thanks very much 19:25:15 meingbg, try also google scholars 19:25:33 Fare: ok. 19:25:40 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp124.studby.uio.no] has quit [Client Quit] 19:26:08 -!- ejs [n=eugen@57-76-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:26:22 lichtblau, for your dired, you use lstat through CFFI ? 19:27:05 younder [n=jthing@084202159110.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 19:28:27 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.239.183] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:29:22 dwave [n=ask@084202073175.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 19:29:25 don't know, it's splittist's dired. I only fixed bitrot some time back. 19:30:06 pjb: Any other suggestions for multi-fronted gui coding? 19:30:39 tcr: ping 19:30:57 nikodemus: Sent. 19:31:01 thanks 19:31:17 which list? 19:31:37 nikodemus: It's for better source paths for nodes introduced by macro expansion and inlining. 19:31:41 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:42 nikodemus: sbcl-devel via gmane 19:32:11 hm, i wonder how long the delay is 19:32:20 how large is the patch? 19:32:53 meingbg: nope. 19:33:13 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-31-126.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:30 nikodemus: It's there for me already. 19:35:28 nikodemus: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.devel/13286/focus=13298 19:35:43 just saw it 19:35:55 my patch fixes your test case as well 19:36:05 nikodemus: my patch fixes that incidentally 19:36:28 nikodemus: for a real world test case, see lastn/fixnum in code/list.lisp 19:37:12 ok, it's complex enough that i'm not going to think about it today 19:37:34 Fine with me. 19:38:03 anyway, C-c C-c %lastn/fixnum in list.lisp with an sbcl version prior to .38 19:38:36 jao [n=jao@33.Red-83-39-134.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:15 you'll see that some form in the macro gets highlighted; notice that there are two different invocations of the macro, and you can't know which note belong to which. My patch will make it highlight the actual macro invocations 19:39:16 i don't have one handy, but with .39 to be it highlights the LET in LASTN-MACRO 19:39:24 right 19:39:32 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:39:38 ok, that's pretty cool 19:42:09 ok, 1.0.28.39 committed 19:42:15 nighynight 19:42:19 can I change the panes in my application frame while the app runs? 19:42:19 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:42:48 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:43:11 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 19:43:23 I thought highlighting inside the macro was a feature, not a bug 19:43:57 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:45:47 can be confusing. I think what we really want is that highlighting ships over to *SLIME Macroexpansion* 19:45:53 kotarak [n=mb@frnk-5f743dc6.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 19:45:55 mjf [n=mjf@r3a98.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 19:47:26 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 19:47:43 I'm thinking in terms of adding or subtracting list-panes. 19:49:11 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:49:39 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 19:51:26 alama [n=alama@171.66.84.178] has joined #lisp 19:51:58 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 19:54:01 manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-082-212-032-239.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 19:54:28 hi 19:54:34 hmm... is there any equivalent of Ruby's Mechanize in Cwritten in CL? 19:56:29 minion: tell p_l about drakma 19:56:31 p_l: look at drakma: Drakma is a fully-featured Common Lisp web client library that knows how to handle HTTP/1.1 chunking, persistent connections, re-usable sockets, SSL, continuable uploads, cookies, and other things. http://www.cliki.net/drakma 19:56:43 http://www.mikemac.com/mikemac/clim/frames.html#28.2.1 19:57:00 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-109.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:57:01 over there, it says to not modify frame-current-panes 19:57:32 dlowe: drakma isn't mechanize's equivalent :D (Mechanize afaik uses ruby-supplied HTTP client) 19:58:22 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 19:58:27 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-94-2.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:20 drakma would be equivalent of open-uri in this case 20:01:06 weird, when loading/compiling my file, I'm getting "The value *foo* is not of type HASH-TABLE" but when I click *foo* in slime, it says its a HASH-TABLE 20:03:39 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:03:48 There doesn't seem to be any accessor function to edit the panes handled by a layout pane, or even return the< 20:03:53 *them? 20:05:02 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:27 -!- alama [n=alama@171.66.84.178] has quit [] 20:07:37 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:10:30 I see how I can switch the layout for my application frame, but not how to create new leaf panes and add them to my app frame. 20:12:29 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:12:32 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:16:08 dbdkmezz_ [n=quassel@94-195-104-235.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:16:29 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:38 mogunus: If you look at how we do it in ESA/Climacs, you'll get a pretty good idea. 20:17:14 mogunus: Specifically, look at the implementation of C-x 2 and C-x 3 20:17:49 beach: oh, fantastic. what file are those in? 20:18:18 mogunus: I have no idea. If you hold on a sec, I'll look... 20:18:48 window-commands.lisp in Climacs 20:18:49 beach: thank you (I'm not at all familiar with climacs) 20:19:09 mogunus: It's about time :) 20:20:22 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:21:46 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:22:08 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 20:23:12 -!- dbdkmezz [n=quassel@94-195-104-235.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:23:41 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-13307.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:26:28 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:32 -!- benny99 [n=benny@p5486B81D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:26:42 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@121.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:27:00 nm found problem 20:27:00 jmbr [n=jmbr@121.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:30:46 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:30:55 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:31:17 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=greg@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 20:33:44 -!- tombom [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 20:36:30 -!- dbdkmezz_ [n=quassel@94-195-104-235.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:39:52 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@121.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:41:16 -!- cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:42:20 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 20:42:24 -!- dysinger [n=tim@32.177.26.122] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:44:09 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:11 walterkronkite [i=450f6c7d@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7d7d29302f5e2dd8] has joined #lisp 20:48:19 can someone help me? 20:48:51 Ironically, in #lisp meta-questions are not welcome. 20:49:06 mega1: Re. bug tracker; last week I sent a mail to sbcl-devel about the further progress of making launchpad official. Perhaps you could reply with a short note that you'd approve its use. 20:49:08 may i ask a meta-question? 20:49:10 what? 20:49:15 walterkronkite: just ask. 20:49:20 ok 20:49:25 i have a lisp 20:49:34 people say im gay 20:49:36 but i am not 20:49:38 walterkronkite: do you mean a speach impediment? 20:49:44 yes 20:49:54 my lips are big 20:49:55 walterkronkite: this is about a programming language named Lisp. 20:50:02 Nothing to do with lips. 20:50:03 what? 20:50:07 Computer stuff. 20:50:11 dont make fun of me 20:50:13 walterkronkite: Go to a professional speech therapist. 20:50:15 Really. 20:50:27 It stands for LISt Processing. 20:50:28 ok 20:50:34 alama [n=alama@171.66.80.164] has joined #lisp 20:50:43 tcr: ok 20:50:48 is this a scheme? 20:51:01 *tcr* smells the troll. 20:51:12 Yes, now the probability is increased. 20:51:28 what quit with all the small talk 20:51:30 walterkronkite: there's a programming language scheme which is very close to Lisp. 20:51:55 walterkronkite: and also another one named SmallTalk which has little to do with Lisp (but was first implemented in Lisp). 20:51:55 im just playin with u guys 20:51:57 should be confirmed now 20:52:02 p=1.0 20:52:12 i was joking 20:52:18 bored mostly 20:52:18 walterkronkite: To what end? You just lost pretty much all your credit. 20:52:36 i was jokin 20:52:42 I'm not 20:52:47 ok 20:53:00 walterkronkite: you know, LISP is 50+ years old, so these jokes grew old a long time ago. 20:53:04 tell me again why unbanning of mibbit was a good idea 20:53:12 lol 20:53:21 yah lisp is really old 20:53:24 i know 20:53:29 as old as fortran 20:55:38 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:56:30 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:56:37 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:58:49 -!- kotarak [n=mb@frnk-5f743dc6.pool.einsundeins.de] has left #lisp 21:12:55 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 21:13:41 jmbr [n=jmbr@121.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:14:25 HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 21:15:31 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:18:16 dbdkmezz [n=quassel@94-195-104-235.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:22:32 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:23:02 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 21:23:37 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:28:26 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:30:00 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:30:51 need to ask something to you...sorry for bothering with maybe the most stupid question..i really dont know if it can be done or not 21:31:07 what? 21:31:12 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:31:27 don't hesitate to ask 21:31:29 is it possible to define two procedures in a paragraph with if else clause? 21:31:52 im trying to make a fahrenheit to celcius and celcius to fahrenheit converter 21:32:02 it is possible, yes 21:32:05 i know how to define them both in different paragraphs 21:32:17 trying to push my small brain a bit further 21:32:21 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:32:24 whatever you mean by "paragraph" 21:32:30 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:34 im new sorry 21:33:18 projections: can u spread ur lips furture apart when u talk long paragraphs? 21:33:38 projections_: paste what you have so far 21:33:40 lichtblau: url? 21:33:49 damn 21:33:50 sorry 21:33:51 dysinger [n=tim@98.246.183.155] has joined #lisp 21:33:54 lisppaste: url? 21:33:54 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 21:34:04 (define (c-f x) (f-c y) and spread two different equations when a definition is used 21:34:08 aaarrrrghh 21:34:25 that's scheme! 21:34:31 oh yes:( 21:34:33 sorry 21:34:36 lol 21:34:39 i guess i need to ask it in scheme 21:36:08 then i wont be asking questions about scheme in here? 21:36:40 considering that there is #scheme, there is no much reason to ask scheme question here 21:36:49 ok sorry then 21:38:14 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-082-212-032-239.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [] 21:40:47 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:43:02 -!- rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:43:33 yay, my Let over Lambda book arrived, on the binding, it reads LOL, lol. Anyone read this? 21:44:15 there are people how praise that book, and there people who are against it 21:44:40 I wouldn't doubt that 21:44:48 -!- silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-096-190.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:45:04 i would read it only if i was extremely bored 21:45:41 I read the intro chapters, I find the writing easier to read then OnLisp 21:45:48 because they are many excellent lisp books worth to read instead 21:46:24 just easier as in more enjoyable... imo 21:51:22 rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 21:52:18 -!- optikalmouse [n=user@bas1-toronto10-1279397938.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 21:53:54 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 21:54:40 -!- walterkronkite [i=450f6c7d@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7d7d29302f5e2dd8] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:54:42 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:54:49 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:54:56 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:59:55 What's the equivalent to python's str.split()? 22:00:09 minion: split-sequence 22:00:10 split-sequence: SPLIT-SEQUENCE (formerly known as PARTITION) is a member of the Common Lisp Utilities family of programs, designed by community consensus. http://www.cliki.net/split-sequence 22:03:22 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.112.17] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:05:30 Thanks 22:08:07 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:09:59 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4775.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:12:12 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0F67.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:13:01 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-42.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 22:13:02 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:13:24 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:14:15 benny [n=benny@i577A11DB.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:17:12 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:20:04 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-174.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 22:21:17 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-158-152.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:24:32 is there a SLIME channel? 22:24:56 it is here 22:25:08 do you have any questions? 22:25:14 not atm 22:25:26 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:25:30 but figured I'd leave it open for tips, etc 22:26:29 dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 22:30:21 scallfold [n=UserID@126.5.81-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:25 hi all :) 22:30:35 hi 22:30:36 need a little help 22:30:43 go ahead 22:31:01 ((un one)(deux two)) 22:31:35 how to do to have ((un . one) (deux . two)) 22:31:36 ? 22:31:54 ^^ im newbie 22:32:33 (mapcar (lambda (x) (cons (car x) (cadr x))) '((un one)(deux two))) 22:32:47 scallfold, mapcar, destructuring-bind, cons ? 22:32:49 -!- dwave [n=ask@084202073175.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:33:02 cons to concat atoms 22:33:08 loop for (x y) = ... collect ... 22:33:15 silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-096-190.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:19 wow wow .. slowly fare 22:33:20 you can't concat atoms 22:33:30 concat lists sorry 22:33:34 -!- silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-096-190.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:34:23 that's right? 22:34:47 you can concatenate lists, yes 22:35:04 ^^ cool thanks 22:35:12 ok it works fine .. 22:35:18 stassats`: you can concatenate some atoms. Strings, vectors, NIL can be concatenate. 22:35:20 +d 22:36:13 (concatenate 'vector "abc" #(1 2 3) NIL) -> #(#\a #\b #\c 1 2 3) 22:36:17 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:36:25 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:31 -!- alama [n=alama@171.66.80.164] has quit [] 22:36:41 (constantly '((un . one) (deux . two))) 22:36:50 exucse me 22:37:34 moment.. there something im not understandinf ( googling .. ) 22:38:46 to any question based on one I/O example, constantly is the right answer 22:39:02 why we use mapcar? 22:39:07 do we? 22:39:44 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-120.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:40:14 because we want to map one function over a list? 22:40:35 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 22:42:01 hmm 22:42:07 i think i understand 22:42:11 when i removed the map car 22:42:29 I understand that you think -- maybe you may want to make a detour by HtDP.org 22:44:42 thx for the link 22:46:11 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@121.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:46:12 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:46:49 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:58 stassats` thank very much usefull methode mapcar + lambda 22:46:59 ^^ 22:47:20 i was trying to do it by recursivity 22:47:42 by the way can you give me an example of it? 22:47:55 of what? 22:48:50 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:49:40 if i hade to rewrite your example using recusivity 22:49:45 scallfold: when you have mapcar, it's pointless to try to get a recursive function to process lists. 22:50:25 scallfold: i can, but you better try it yourself for the learning sake 22:50:28 mapcar allows you to factorize out the recursive processing of lists. Why would you want to opencode it? 22:50:30 ^^ pjb well , im just begging wanna try 22:51:25 alama [n=alama@171.66.107.130] has joined #lisp 22:51:59 (defun mapcar* (fun list) (if (endp list) '() (cons (funcall fun (first list)) (mapcar* fun (rest list))))) 22:52:54 okey nice ^^ 22:53:25 guys do you use lisp for real industrial projects ? 22:53:51 brandelune [n=suzume@pl094.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:54:42 Yes, of course. 22:54:50 hm like ? 22:55:13 i'm using lisp since ..huh 7 days so :p 22:55:36 doing whatever you do in another languages? 22:56:56 yeah sure it's powerfull , but nowdays we see Java , C++ , .NET and others 22:57:58 i don't see much of the first and the third 22:58:10 may be it's used to resolve heavy and difficult maths / algo in some university or labs 22:59:26 -!- controll [n=nonamme@cpe-74-64-125-220.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:59:43 -!- dbdkmezz [n=quassel@94-195-104-235.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:00:13 scallfold: have a look at http://www.franz.com/success/ to see the range of applications. 23:01:40 thank you 23:03:08 -!- zbrown [n=rufius@unaffiliated/zbrown] has quit ["leaving"] 23:03:12 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:42 is dolist a nil block? 23:05:45 leo2007: sure. 23:06:02 pjb: even in elisp? 23:06:13 -!- HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:06:26 that question is off-topic 23:06:53 -!- zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:07:04 zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 23:07:07 but considering that dolist is part of cl package, yes 23:08:27 alec [n=alec@pool-96-237-2-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:13 -!- Martinp23 [i=martinp2@freenode/staff/wikimedia.martinp23] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:10:21 Martinp23 [i=martinp2@freenode/staff/wikimedia.martinp23] has joined #lisp 23:10:25 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r3a98.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 23:16:47 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:17:39 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 23:18:16 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-151-96.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:52 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB!"] 23:28:02 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483BF8D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:28:41 thank you all 23:29:34 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:33:55 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 23:39:14 -!- scallfold [n=UserID@126.5.81-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [] 23:41:18 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:42:29 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 23:42:34 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 23:42:51 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:45:35 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:47:27 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:47:36 HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 23:47:44 -!- dysinger [n=tim@98.246.183.155] has quit [] 23:51:14 -!- addled [n=alawson@89.Red-83-36-62.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:52:37 postamar [n=postamar@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:52:51 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:53:45 postamar_ [n=postamar@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:54:04 -!- postamar_ [n=postamar@modemcable110.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 23:54:22 addled [n=alawson@235.Red-83-37-236.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:43 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 23:59:15 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]