00:00:20 I suppose I'll just have to look into CFFI or something then 00:00:21 He's got the Beatles IIRC. 00:00:24 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 00:01:00 Well, you can play with sdl a little 00:01:26 and if you are not concerned too much about control over audio output, decode->write to device 00:01:47 mm, I thought about that 00:01:53 -!- kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 00:02:00 I found cl-alsa as well but it seems rather old and limited 00:02:22 drafael: what is the extend of what you need? 00:02:52 -!- projections [n=p@78.180.224.198] has quit [] 00:03:15 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 00:03:51 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 00:03:58 I was going to make a simple program which draws samples off freesound.org and allows you to bind them to keys and use macros to create new samples and rebind etc 00:04:11 mess around with samples in other words 00:04:17 JACK output would be ideal 00:04:20 florist [n=florist@unaffiliated/florist] has joined #lisp 00:05:23 -!- florist [n=florist@unaffiliated/florist] has left #lisp 00:05:30 portaudio looks quite nice, though it's support for JACK and ALSA is still not release-quality (OSS is stated as "release", as is ASIO, CoreAudio, DirectSound and Windows MME) 00:06:14 minion: thwap for p_l 00:06:14 p_l: direct your attention towards thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 00:06:48 -!- jophish [n=jophish@dial-80-47-3-226.access.uk.tiscali.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:07:19 argh 00:07:21 -!- jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:07:32 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 00:07:40 I'll have a look at it, thanks 00:07:54 pkhuong: I try correcting myself, but the way I type, it's inevitable 00:08:24 -!- mick_laptop [n=mick@clamwin/admin/mickhome] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:08:37 I've noticed, in editing transcripts for Coders at Work, that "it's" occurs far more often that "its", at least in spoken language. 00:09:11 So it's not entirely odd to use "it's" instead of "its" which seems to be the way most people make the mistake. 00:09:19 I'd simply wish for someone to remove homonyms from English 00:09:36 homophones, surely? 00:09:38 Your fingers get a lot more practice typing "it's" so it's a capture error. 00:10:24 pkhuong: beats me, I'm not linguist :P 00:10:52 (also possible degradation from "lost in translation") 00:12:07 gigamonkey: so, type "it is" instead 00:12:25 I prefer written language that is completely phonetic and doesn't have phonetically indistinguishable words that mean completely different idea... 00:12:37 oh great. Homonym also applies to words that only sound the same. 00:13:07 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-0-85.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:13:14 *p_l* recalls that there weren't many homonyms in polish... 00:13:41 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-1-172.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:45 -!- lichtblau [n=user@pD9543290.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 00:14:12 Vegan [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.110] has joined #lisp 00:14:20 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 00:15:42 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:16:04 English at least has a simple grammar and vocabulary, at least :) 00:16:35 Heh. Yeah, right. 00:17:35 hi 00:18:05 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 00:18:21 I have emacs-22 with slime and what looks like sbcl. I did M-x slime 00:18:25 now what? 00:18:27 I'd almost grant your point on the grammar, but the vocabulary has duplicate words in it, and the orthography is a nightmare. 00:18:33 p_l: was that a sarcasm? 00:18:50 stassats`: No, English grammar is *simple* 00:18:52 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:08 is this correct? Polling "/tmp/slime.24134".. (Abort with `M-x slime-abort-connection'.) 00:19:08 well, maybe, but vocabulary? 00:19:25 controll: it means slime is trying to connect to Lisp 00:19:46 so it's not connected? 00:19:58 controll: switch to *inferior-lisp* buffer and see what it's doing 00:20:12 stassats`: I meant that English most of the time doesn't care about gender of terms, nor requires changing their form due to grammar 00:21:27 stassats`: as for duplicate words... try this: a duplicate verb meaning exactly the same thing, with somewhere around *one* letter difference 00:22:14 with ou/o difference? 00:22:22 stassats`: It's silly and unpoetic to use "it is" all the time. 00:22:27 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-215-133.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:22:52 jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 00:23:24 stassats`: no, one that is different depending on declination, but which always looks just like a slightly wrong declination. So you get berated for wrongly declining a verb :D 00:24:12 *controll* wonders if it's the only thinking something's wrong with xml/html for documentation 00:24:36 controll: better than pdf 00:25:11 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r3a98.net.upc.cz] has quit [Success] 00:25:21 in the same league, though pdf worst 00:26:17 at least html I can read in w3m 00:26:51 how to load casting spels?? 00:26:54 you can read pdf in view-mode 00:27:31 ah I gotta load the adventure.el ? 00:27:32 err, not exactly that name 00:27:54 doc-view, that is 00:28:20 stassats`: in console framebuffer? 00:28:23 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:28:40 i wasn't answering your question 00:28:40 stassats`: you can't nicely copy-paste etc. not to mention it's slow 00:29:08 theunixgeek [n=patrick@201.53.244.231] has joined #lisp 00:29:18 p_l: but it obeys DRM 00:29:32 ok there are two parts the adventure.el and the guide in html, how to do both? 00:29:37 ... where's my nuclear cluebat 00:30:00 uh? 00:30:16 ~+ 00:31:17 c'mon I wanna get going :) 00:31:22 controll: i don't understand what's problem 00:31:52 can't you just open two windows, one with guide, one to play with code in SLIME? 00:31:59 is this correct? -uuu:**-F1 *inferior-lisp* 00:32:16 how to open a new window? 00:32:29 correct for what? 00:32:52 I don't know it at the bottom on a status bar 00:32:58 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:01 -!- theunixgeek [n=patrick@201.53.244.231] has left #lisp 00:33:29 full line ---> -uuu:**-F1 *inferior-lisp* Bot L658 (Comint:run Filladapt)----------------------------------------------------------------- 00:33:58 why are you asking whether it's correct? 00:34:08 controll: I suggest you first go through Emacs tutorial... 00:34:16 I thought SLIME was supposed to show me both the howto and sbcl 00:34:33 the -uuu looks random 00:34:43 It is not. 00:34:52 it looks pretty deterministic to me 00:35:03 I did already put the stuff in .emacs and loaded SLIME + SBCL 00:35:03 It means emacs is configured for a unicode keyboard, on a unicode screen, with a unicode file. 00:35:16 or utf-8 actually. 00:35:19 oh excellent!! 00:35:28 that's what I have too 00:36:02 incidentally, the id3 parsing in the code from PCL is not, er, industrial strength 00:36:20 hefner: hey! 00:36:20 eh... 00:36:21 id3 is awful 00:36:25 LMAO 00:36:40 hefner: what'd you run into? 00:36:44 hefner: refering to 00:36:54 #friendly-coders topic? 00:37:21 gigamonkey: I forget, it's been a couple years since I ran it, but I recall it blowing up on various files 00:37:46 Good. I'll enter that in my bugs database. ;-) 00:37:48 so wasn't I sposed to load casting spels within emacs and then copy and paste the code in sbcl?? 00:38:13 I am ready :) 00:38:14 Actually, I vaguely recall someone emailing me about some problem with it. 00:39:13 mm.. the sbcl in emacs looks exactly the same as in a shell. 00:39:16 Some edge case--maybe something like if a string was encoded in some legal but unlikely way. 00:39:17 controll: you are supposed to go through and type everything by hand 00:39:25 I guess there must be some goodies under the hood? 00:39:37 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:50 yes, you didn't put (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) into your .emacs? 00:39:57 stassats`: I cant' view adventures.el and the html guide ? 00:40:13 what's adventures.el? 00:40:55 stassats`: that one wasn't mentioned 00:42:26 you open the html guide in your browser, follow it, ..., profit? 00:43:00 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.110] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:46:04 hefner: You're not Larry Hunter are you? 00:46:11 mib_8wi60hmp [i=4581cf65@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-641f9dff6c5b011c] has joined #lisp 00:46:37 He emailed me about the id3 code--seems like he had some files where the ID3 tag isn't the first thing in the file. 00:47:12 mm.. sbcl craps oun on swak presentation Package Lock then it gives me 6 options which one should I use? 00:47:42 you should upgrade sbcl and/or slime 00:47:55 Lock on package SB-IMPL violated when interning INDENTING-STREAM. 00:48:17 I just installed both and upgraded them at the same time this evening 00:48:27 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:34 gigamonkey: I'll have to check, but I'm pretty sure I'm not Larry Hunter 00:48:34 (SB-EXT:PACKAGE-LOCK-VIOLATION #)[:EXTERNAL] 00:48:48 hefner: okay. 00:48:49 controll: where did you install them from? 00:49:03 you didn't update it properly, you should've used slime from CVS 00:49:06 gigamonkey: Wait, what? Your id3 code doesn't handle the older id3 tags? 00:49:28 kpreid: gentoo portage: emacs 22.3-r2 00:49:30 nyef: You mean id3v1? 00:49:35 Perhaps not. 00:49:42 They are totally different and not very interesting. 00:49:46 Or maybe I did. Let me check. 00:49:52 sbcl 1.0.28 00:50:10 Indeed. Fixed-width fields and everything. 00:50:23 and slime? 00:50:23 And at the end of the file. 00:50:38 app-emacs/slime 2.0_p20080731 00:50:49 slime 2.0? that's your problem 00:50:51 that's too old 00:50:52 oh I see. I'll get the 2009 version 00:50:56 you have latest sbcl, you should have latest slime 00:51:02 nyef: yeah. I mention them in the book but don't bother writing code to deal with them, I don't think. 00:51:38 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-229-91-142.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:13 -!- jao` [n=jao@147.Red-81-32-186.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:53:15 Heh, looking more closely at Larry Hunter's email from long ago, it seems that that actually was his problem--he had a file with a ID3v1.1 tag. 00:55:42 froydnj: around? 00:56:05 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:56:40 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:56:47 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-1-172.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:57:01 jao [n=jao@147.Red-81-32-186.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:02 -!- slyrus__ is now known as slyrus_ 00:58:53 ahaas: pong? 00:59:31 Hi. I ran into a checksum error while using Chipz. The data was compressed with Salza2. Is there an easy way to find out which lib is at fault? 01:00:09 ... Are you using the latest versions of each? 01:00:15 yes 01:00:16 Seems like you need Guacamole to arbitrate. 01:00:30 Can you decompress the data with another utility? 01:00:31 gigamonkey: Heh. 01:00:34 (unless something new came out in the past 48 hours) 01:00:41 -!- jao [n=jao@147.Red-81-32-186.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:01:14 WTF, the output got scrambled and suckt by CL-USER!!! 01:01:22 I'll see if I can use another utility to do it. 01:01:33 I guess it worked now :) 01:02:02 I am in CL-USER what do I do next? 01:02:19 Isn't Casting Spels a *tutorial*. Shouldn't it be telling you what to do? 01:02:46 I cannot toggle the guide or split the window within slime? 01:03:25 gigamonkey: yes that's not my problem, the issue I am facing is three-pronged, the sbcl command line, the html guide and the adventures.el 01:03:51 What is adventures.el? 01:03:56 ahaas: hm, I think I have a checksum error fixed in my sources. 01:04:13 I using screen so I can always split windows only I thought emacs could do something similar. 01:04:22 froydnj: Oh? Not published, yet? 01:04:36 right. I need to do that. 01:04:46 gigamonkey: the file with all the code of casting spels 01:05:04 jao [n=jao@147.Red-81-32-186.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:07 Uh, adventures.el sounds like Elisp. Where does SBCL come into it? 01:05:13 froydnj: I have 0.7.2 from clbuild, fwiw. 01:05:18 controll: you should read the emacs tutorial, but here's a free hint. try C-x 2, C-x 3 01:05:27 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-68-142-74.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:06:10 and C-x 0 to unsplit 01:07:35 is there a way to insert a char into a string before a character of my choice? 01:07:40 kpreid: nice! 01:08:03 jimi_hendrix: You could probably do it with a regular expression... 01:08:03 but now I got two sbcl prompts 01:08:19 do I read the html guide with sbcl? 01:08:19 controll: you *really* need to read the Emacs tutorial. 01:08:48 yeah I know I am impatient and want to start inputing code at once 01:09:07 controll: If you read the Common Lisp version of Casting Spels, you can follow along in SBCL. 01:09:28 If you're doing the Elisp version you don't need SBCL at all. 01:09:31 nyef, what command in cl-ppcre should i look at? 01:09:53 kpreid: how to move around? 01:10:13 C-x o 01:10:23 controll: if you want to do Casting Spels you don't need Emacs. 01:10:34 jimi_hendrix: Oh, did you mean character as in "the first #\a" or character as in "the fifth character in the string"? 01:10:42 (Unless you're doing the Elisp version. In which case you're in the wrong channel.) 01:10:45 tip for exploring: C-h a, type a word, it will list commands using that word and their keybindings 01:11:16 If it's the former, a regular expression should do the trick. If it's the latter, consider using concatenate and subseq. 01:11:46 nyef, if i have string "[]^.alot of stuff used in regex./\()", i basically want to escape all the regex stuff in there so i can use it in cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all 01:12:12 jimi_hendrix: I think cl-ppcre has a function to do exactly that. 01:12:19 oo /me looks 01:12:43 *controll* smashes the keyboard around 01:13:06 gigamonk`, any clue which one? 01:13:19 ahaas: http://method-combination.net/lisp/files/chipz.tar.gz should be version 0.7.3; please try it and see if it fixes your bug 01:13:31 froydnj: ok. thanks! 01:13:35 whaa?? first I was doing with the shell and sbcl and the guide on a browers the I am told to use emacs with slime and now that I dont' need emacs??!! 01:13:41 and I am in the wrong channel? 01:14:03 controll: in general SLIME is a better development environment. 01:14:14 controll: I guess it's just that we are used to people with more experience, so guiding someone from very beginning is harder :) 01:14:53 But if you just want to go through Casting Spels and don't already know Emacs and are unwilling to take a 15 minute detour to read the tutorial, you don't need it. 01:15:08 *gigamonkey* notes that you could have finished the tutorial in the time this conversation has been going on. 01:15:13 emacs can cast spells? 01:15:52 jimi_hendrix: quote-meta-chars, would be my guess. 01:16:00 gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:25 *controll* tries again 01:16:48 Heck, Casting Spels advices using Franz's weird little telnet thingy.y 01:18:08 oh I have an idea, I start emacs split the window then start slime inside one of them. 01:18:39 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087E31B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:19:51 froydnj: That fixed it! Thanks again. 01:20:36 ahaas: thank _3b; he's the one who reported it and fixed it. 01:20:46 you just get credit for kicking me to release it :) 01:20:52 I wonder if he was working with swfs again, too. 01:21:02 GOT IT!!! I am pwoning this thang! Now how to load the html guide on the window sans-slime? 01:21:35 is the telnet thingy still there? I thought somebody said it had been taken down 01:22:43 (which would be too bad: it was really nice for quick compability testing without having to accept the crippleware ACL license) 01:23:34 is there a safe command at the sbcl prompt to type repeteadly? I have an urge to ty ls and enter. I do this in the shell ls enter ls enter. 01:24:05 0 01:24:14 5 should be pretty safe, too. 01:24:31 0 is what I type to make sure I'm at a prompt 01:24:44 Or +. + can help... Or (), or T, or... 01:24:59 perhaps pjb can chime in with an interesting suggestion 01:25:04 something that gives some info on something ls list files 01:25:18 (lisp-implementation-version) 01:25:22 (directory "*") ? 01:25:30 gh7d395pi69wd [n=d23zbgfd@unaffiliated/gh7d395pi69wd] has joined #lisp 01:25:33 (room) ;) 01:25:48 ooh, that's dangerous 01:25:54 hefner: Wasn't "safe" a requirement? 01:26:20 :) 01:26:21 ooo, the smiley doubles as a comment. 01:26:22 I hadn't seen this 'casting spels' site before. 01:26:38 ah I like () because it returns something 01:27:09 Yes, () evaluates to (). 01:27:15 (also known as NIL.) 01:27:59 (directory "*") <--- nice too 01:28:08 (define-symbol-macro w (run-program "/usr/bin/w" () :output *standard-output*)) 01:28:50 (room) is like a monitor status. 01:29:04 though these youngsters with their facebooks and twitters don't seem to have the obsessive compulsion to type "w" at the prompt every few minutes 01:30:42 jsnell: SMSes and twitter/facebook synergise rather scarily. 01:30:58 w 01:31:30 and you kids get off my lawn, while I'm at it 01:32:19 *Fade* puts on the plaid pants and the jaunty matching golf cap and waters his driveway 01:32:32 jsnell: is that one safe? why /usr/bin/w?? 01:33:02 clearly the inmates have taken over the asylum. 01:38:17 tritchey [n=tritchey@cpe-98-157-218-210.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:38:55 Someone should make a ditributed w so you can link your Unix machine with your friends' machines and have w tell you about all of them. It'd be less lonely. 01:40:05 ah nice like finger 01:40:16 yeah, it never has been the same after high school and university 01:40:32 jao` [n=jao@175.Red-79-155-245.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:05 -!- jao [n=jao@147.Red-81-32-186.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:49:49 mick_laptop [n=mick@76.109.173.249] has joined #lisp 01:49:49 -!- mick_laptop [n=mick@76.109.173.249] has quit [Client Quit] 01:49:55 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.29.82] has joined #lisp 01:51:46 argh, stupid AVER. why are fixnum arithmetic patches causing that? 01:52:19 What's the name of the variable where the command line options are stored? 01:52:25 Vegan [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.110] has joined #lisp 01:52:40 jao [n=jao@15.Red-83-42-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:53 sb-ext:*posix-argv*, I think 02:00:02 but note that you probably want (cdr sb-ext:*posix-argv*) 02:00:08 s/cdr/rest/ 02:01:34 ok thanks all to put up with my blind impulses this is a piece of cake, I already am like orca in the cold waters of north pole. 02:01:38 :) 02:01:51 still I am not sure I'll get very far. 02:02:02 watch out for harpoons 02:03:48 *controll* starts reading 'industrial-strenght' guide of Casting SPELS 02:04:24 -!- jao` [n=jao@175.Red-79-155-245.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:04:26 -!- jao [n=jao@15.Red-83-42-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:05:04 jao [n=jao@7.Red-79-156-140.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:50 back 02:05:59 Thanks froydnj 02:06:40 Is there anything like python's optparse? 02:07:16 -!- nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 02:12:02 -!- jao [n=jao@7.Red-79-156-140.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:12:37 -!- jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Client Quit] 02:12:52 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 02:14:31 bgs100: unfortunately not 02:16:00 :P 02:16:08 jao [n=jao@54.Red-83-36-222.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:41 bgs100, another question is if there is anything like pythonsys.argv :-) 02:17:15 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@75.36.204.63] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:17:28 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:26 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:21:59 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.110] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:21:59 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-82.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:21:59 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@76.254.18.82] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:22:07 gigamonk` [n=user@99.39.6.238] has joined #lisp 02:22:10 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-6-238.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:20 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:35:11 -!- jao [n=jao@54.Red-83-36-222.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:36:41 mugrido [n=jbelbo@76.199.8.109] has joined #lisp 02:37:38 Hi, anybody is familiar with callbacks in CFFI? I am getting a frustrating seg fault, and I cannot put my finger on it. 02:37:47 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@cpe-98-157-218-210.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:39:26 jao [n=jao@71.Red-79-156-141.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:25 argh, I can't do it with ltn-annotate and of course I blew away the peephole bits that sort of worked before. argh. 02:44:11 -!- jao [n=jao@71.Red-79-156-141.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:47:38 Was someone here pondering writing an MP3 decoder the other day? 02:49:43 that would be hefner 02:50:52 http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/2009-05/lisp-2009.05.09.txt first hit searching for mp3 02:53:48 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@113.77.29.82] has quit [Success] 02:56:00 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@130.208.131.159] has quit [] 02:56:02 xrt [n=xrt@adsl-99-35-135-200.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:29 -!- xrt [n=xrt@adsl-99-35-135-200.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:58:37 minion: memo for hefner: If you're still pondering writing an MP3 decoder, Donald Knuth recommends this book: http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-MP3-Martin-Ruckert/dp/3528059052/ 02:58:37 Remembered. I'll tell hefner when he/she/it next speaks. 02:58:38 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 02:59:55 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2E17A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:02:44 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202159110.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:03:03 younder [n=jthing@084202159110.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 03:03:49 -!- postamar [n=postamar@76-10-160-143.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [] 03:06:57 -!- alec [n=alec@pool-96-237-2-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:12:51 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit ["brb"] 03:15:07 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:39 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 03:18:02 mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-075-177-141-190.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:19:38 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:22:45 night all 03:22:46 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:22:52 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["DON'T PANIC"] 03:24:29 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:26:13 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 03:27:01 Vegan [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.110] has joined #lisp 03:28:57 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-143-250.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:54 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:36:28 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 03:41:18 -!- nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:48:50 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:46 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-200.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:57:54 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:43 -!- Gertm [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:06:10 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.231.126] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:14:18 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-140-37.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:15:22 durka42 [n=durka@d192.mertza.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 04:30:10 -!- theL00p [n=user@78.33.52.101] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:32:27 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:37:00 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.110] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:38:10 grizzlor [n=Tyler@72.92.236.204] has joined #lisp 04:48:33 Good morning. 04:49:10 hey, beach. 04:55:44 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.141.140] has joined #lisp 04:58:05 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:01:34 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:02:39 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.141.140] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:07:01 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-166-19.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:36 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.148.139] has joined #lisp 05:17:21 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-217.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:17:22 -!- mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:18:16 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:27 mqt [n=tran@caledonia.rh.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 05:21:30 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 05:25:24 -!- mqt [n=tran@caledonia.rh.rit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 05:26:33 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 05:29:56 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:30:34 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:19 -!- ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has quit [Success] 05:41:27 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 05:41:55 Hello 05:42:02 hello MrSpec 05:42:59 yo, beach 05:43:15 Hey gigamonk. What's up? 05:43:48 Not much. Pondering a 2nd ed. of PCL, what with all these newfangled Lisp books coming up. 05:44:30 Were you writing, or just thinking about writing, a book about algorithms? 05:44:44 I am writing it, but progress is slow. 05:45:00 I think it has 250 pages or so currently. 05:45:33 I know how that goes. My wife took the kid to see my folks for five days and I'm making huge progress on Coders at Work in their absence. 05:45:46 Is yours in French or English? 05:46:05 In French. But I would love to see an English version at some point. 05:50:15 I wonder if there would be a market, or even any virtue, in a series of books about programming langugaes, intended to teach enough so that people could appreciate the ideas embodied in each language, even if they never actually end up using them. 05:50:47 One book per language? 05:51:11 Well, I've also been pondering a multi-lingual book. 05:51:54 "Peter Seibel's Practical Practically Everything" 05:51:54 hefner, memo from gigamonkey: If you're still pondering writing an MP3 decoder, Donald Knuth recommends this book: http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-MP3-Martin-Ruckert/dp/3528059052/ 05:51:56 But it'd be hard to do justice to many languages in such a book unless it's a "book" in the same sense The Art of Computer Programming is a single book. 05:52:14 gigamonk`: Yeah, I think it's a tough task. 05:52:28 hefner: yeah, except it's Peter Seibel's *Im*practical Practically Everything. 05:53:58 I've been reading Real World Haskell, which is relentless about showing that you can use Haskell to do "real stuff". 05:54:31 But I realized I don't care. The question I have about Haskell is, Is it's model of progragramming one that people should really take seriously. 05:54:56 "if I wanted practical, I'd use Lisp!" 05:54:56 If the answer to that question is, yes, then I'll worry about how to use it to connect to an RDBMS. 05:55:23 yeah, I see where you're coming from. 05:56:03 hefner: Basically. It's sort of funny -- all the weird myths about Lisp that I had to gently disabuse people of (that Lists are the only data structure; that it's functional, etc.) are sort of true of Haskell. 05:57:16 gigamonk`: I think it is worth learning. 05:57:24 I think the Haskell guys may be onto something but none of the books I've looked at do a good job of explaining it. 05:57:32 -!- gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 05:58:01 gigamonk`: not even RWH? 05:58:30 *hefner* glances forlornly at "The Haskell School of Expression" on his bookshelf 05:58:42 Adamant: No. Because they are so intent on showing that you can *really use it*, they don't come to grips with *why* it's so different from what we're all used to. 05:58:47 ah 05:59:14 *gigamonk`* glances over at his copy of the "The Haskell School of Expression". 05:59:41 -!- mugrido [n=jbelbo@76.199.8.109] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:59:53 missyjane [n=hey@unaffiliated/missyjane] has joined #lisp 05:59:55 hi 06:00:02 Also I found RWH to be not super-well written and to suffer from multiple-author syndrome. 06:02:00 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-140-37.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:02:24 hi, missyjane 06:02:35 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey` 06:02:46 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-6-238.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:02:47 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:02:49 -!- gigamonkey` is now known as gigamonkey 06:03:26 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:49 sabotage! every time I run my spectrum analyzer, there's a 25% chance X11 crashes. 06:04:00 -!- shelducks [n=aver@ool-182f543a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 06:04:53 if this keeps up, I will have to write my own window system. 06:04:56 gigamonkey, i must say i am disappointed in myself 06:05:03 eh? 06:07:03 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.246.215] has joined #lisp 06:09:17 missyjane: that last, eh?, was for you 06:10:56 gigamonkey, i was here before in #lisp and i think several people (you were one of them) gave me excellent advice on how to get started in lisp (or really, how to get started in programming) 06:11:04 i think you were one of them*** 06:11:09 *S11001001* glances at "The Haskell School of Expression" in his Amazon wish list, added March 21, 2006, with comment "I'm not sure if this will actually be useful, but should be eye-opening when I get time to read it." 06:11:19 now i get the basic concept in lisp (compared to other language especially c since i know that most) 06:11:39 but i am disappointed because i do not know where to start to make my own program despite say, being able to edit already-made programs 06:11:55 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 06:12:44 The best/worst line in "The Haskell School of Expression" is "most programming errors are manifested as typing errors" (p. 8) 06:12:51 HA 06:13:00 hehe 06:13:27 I think the Haskell guys are on to something, but that, let's say, does not correspond to my experience. 06:13:38 missyjane: Hmmmm. Do you have programs you want to write? 06:14:10 gigamonkey, i want to say, write a port listener 06:14:15 or a wireshark clone or even a kde clone 06:14:22 *missyjane* prepares for laughters 06:14:41 *S11001001* continues to laugh...about the HSE thing 06:16:10 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:16:12 S11001001: I was reading that book on a trip back to New Haven and was tempted to leave a note on the CS department's bulletin board: "Dear Prof. Hudak, Most programming errors do *not* manifest as tying errors. You are on crack. Sincerely, Peter Seibel, '94" 06:16:33 missyjane: KDE clone sounds a bit ambitious. 06:16:43 gigamonkey, is it? 06:16:49 maybe something smaller than wireshark? 06:17:38 thats the thing 06:17:40 now where do i start? 06:18:03 missyjane: Let's put it this way, do you know how to write KDE in C? 06:18:11 If so, maybe it's not too ambitious. 06:18:17 more like C++ 06:18:19 gigamonkey, nope 06:18:30 notwithstanding qtc 06:18:32 thats the thing, i know enough to know that c doesnt (for the most part) do any oo 06:19:15 what I think would be useful 06:19:40 would be an evaluator that takes the output of Arnesi's OO code-walker and "safely" evaluates untrusted code, for some definition of safe 06:19:50 obviously a configurable definition of safe 06:19:57 missyjane: you don't need C++ to do OO, you can do OO in C. Or anything else, including Assembler :P 06:20:12 missyjane: if you're having trouble writing programs in Lisp, it seems like you want to take a program you have some idea how to write in a language you know, and then figure out how to write it in Lisp. 06:20:30 p_l, well, i know php very well, really well but i can tell you for example, that php does oo but it sucks at it 06:20:45 what do you write in PHP? 06:20:54 gigamonkey, its not just lisp though if igured, from a lisp perspective, it would help, i cant seem to write any program in anything, even in php which i know best 06:20:59 S11001001, i can make a small working blog for example 06:21:18 maybe you should write that on top of UCW or Weblocks or even just plain Hunchentoot 06:22:24 maybe not weblocks, a blog is included in the examples 06:22:25 I agree with S11001001. If you grok blogging software a bit, then implement that in Lisp. 06:22:26 but the others sure 06:22:44 i dont even know what ucw, weblocks, or hunchentoot is 06:22:49 and whats grok? 06:22:50 lol 06:22:58 *missyjane* prepares to be pounded on 06:23:02 Go with Hunchentoot; it's a basic HTTP server written in Common Lisp. 06:23:09 UCW uncommon web a webapp framework, weblocks same, Hunchentoot as gigamonkey said 06:23:15 http://catb.org/jargon/html/G/grok.html 06:23:24 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.79.29] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:23:38 implementing right on hunchentoot is "closer to the metal" 06:23:55 whether you are into that sort of thing is your business 06:24:01 And probably more like PHP programming. 06:24:22 very probably 06:24:23 (Though I'm not really familiar enough with PHP, UCW, or Weblocks, to say that with a lot of confidence.) 06:24:53 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:24:56 I have to bang my head on the keyboard much less often with a webapp framework than mainlining PHP 06:25:17 lol 06:25:26 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:34 The other nice thing about blogging software is there is lots of room for expansion -- once you've got something simple, if you use it you'll should come up with new feature ideas and then can implement those. 06:25:47 and eventually you'll have a whole CMS 06:25:51 why would anyone need a blogging software in anything other than php or python? 06:25:52 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [No route to host] 06:26:12 why would anyone need a blogging software in anything other than perl or objective-c? 06:26:29 I'm detecting a pattern here. X11 is waging a war on the Pixie theme. Every time I enable it and run a mcclim app.. *boom* 06:26:38 nobody should have or actually use a blog written in perl or obj-c 06:26:40 :/ 06:26:50 *p_l* notices that japan seems to be quite fond of old-style CGI apps 06:27:09 p_l, software side isnt big in japan 06:27:13 mostly hardware (hence robots) 06:27:20 p_l: an elegant weapon, for a more civilized age. 06:27:27 you just implicitly valued php over perl 06:27:39 S11001001, for blogging.. yes.. 06:27:41 not fair at all, since it took php until 5.6 to even get *closures*. Pathetic. 06:27:51 Alright, time for bed. Goodnight all. 06:28:04 missyjane: I'm not sure if I agree - Seeing some of the stuff coming from there, it's more of a different programming style... 06:28:05 S11001001, hence why i said php suck at oo 06:28:09 gigamonkey, ty, good night 06:28:43 OTOH, I'm kind of retrocomputing nut. I had seen HTTP servers written in MacLisp serving files out of PDP-10... 06:29:15 (the other httpd for PDP-10/ITS I know of was written in Assembler) 06:29:56 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:36:47 if i wanted to write a blog i would certainly write it in lisp 06:36:58 blah 06:37:10 ? 06:37:18 just frustrated 06:37:23 ok 06:38:27 hmmm.... blogging software in macro assembler with FCGI sounds fun... :P 06:39:37 i just need... to.. practice more i guess 06:46:39 Strav [n=user@dsl-216-221-37-177.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 06:47:35 I just spent several hours tracking down a bug, only to find my six month old "TODO" note reminding me to finish that part. 06:47:50 vim would have highlighted it 06:49:35 That would've probably saved me a few hours. 06:51:03 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.12.201] has joined #lisp 06:51:21 gh7d395pi69wd, lol 06:52:12 gh7d395pi69wd, does your name happen to be your password too? 06:52:18 oh shi- 06:52:29 do you have a vagina? 06:52:40 yes 06:52:48 tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.145] has joined #lisp 06:52:49 k i'm unable to continue this conversation 06:53:18 lol... 06:53:44 he. Usual question I guess. I just installed a package via asdf and cannot seem to find a way to rely on the compiled fasl files when requiring the package in question... 06:54:51 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 06:56:06 spradnyesh pasted "need help with macro for defclass" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79971 06:56:16 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-3.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 06:56:23 can someone please help me how to go about doing http://paste.lisp.org/display/79971 06:56:48 i guess this should be a pretty common pattern 06:57:13 spradnyesh: Macros that defines something should be prefixed by DEF or DEFINE, the prefix MAKE- implies that a new value is created and returned 06:57:36 tcr: is that a convention or a requirement? 06:57:47 ok missyjane enough is enough, ive been in love with you since 5th grade and you havent even looked at me 06:58:16 spradnyesh: It's a convention 06:58:24 gh7d395pi69wd, lol um which class were you in? and will you tell me how original i am if i borrow some script, change a few things, and call it my own? >< 06:58:34 spradnyesh: Basically what you're trying to do is frowned upon by many 06:58:41 -!- mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:58:43 eemz 06:58:45 tcr: thanks. however, i'm not able to know what i'm doing wrong there 06:58:58 spradnyesh: What's wrong with DEFCLASS? 06:59:16 tcr: please pardon my immaturity here, i'm still just begining to learn 06:59:21 Gertm [n=Gertm@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 06:59:29 well i've got 2 classes that are almost exactly the same 06:59:33 -!- _8david [n=user@pD9541989.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:59:38 and i'd like to cut down the loc that i write ;) 06:59:52 also i'm learing to write my own macros for the 1st time (have read a few till now) 07:00:00 _8david [n=user@pD9541989.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:00:03 so i thought this might be a good example to try it out on 07:00:07 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Client Quit] 07:00:43 spradnyesh: Sounds like you want one of the classes to inherit from the other, or extract a common base class that both inherit from 07:00:54 spradnyesh: For that particular example, defclass* would be nice (it's there somewhere, search through common-lisp.net) 07:01:10 don't poison the newbies 07:01:12 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d192.mertza.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 07:01:17 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 07:01:25 tcr: no no. they look the same. don't have common functionality to be related together 07:01:52 How do they look the same then? 07:02:02 anyways, the real problem is i have a few slots, and they have a accessor and an initarg that's the same name as the slot itself 07:02:15 Yes, that's common 07:02:26 so i'd like to create the class by looping over the slots in a macro 07:02:31 that's what i'm trying to do :) 07:02:36 slashus2 [n=dex@74-141-105-89.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 07:02:48 p_l: thanks, i'll search for that 07:02:54 http://common-lisp.net/project/defclass-star/ 07:03:03 lnostdal annotated #79971 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79971#1 07:03:38 spradnyesh, that annotation was for you 07:04:06 spradnyesh: Do you use Emacs? 07:04:12 lnostdal: i guessed as much. looking at it. and thanks 07:04:20 tcr: yes 07:04:23 -!- semyon [n=semyon@217.67.122.44] has left #lisp 07:04:29 i shifted from vim to emacs just coz of lisp 07:04:38 gh7d395pi69wd, lol.. im getting off lisp now, if you want to talk, we can fight .. err.. i mean talk in pm :) 07:04:40 -!- missyjane [n=hey@unaffiliated/missyjane] has left #lisp 07:04:41 still having a difficult time. but trying to survive ;) 07:04:57 spradnyesh: Take a look at redshank; that's a package that basically writes the DEFCLASS definitions for you. 07:05:05 *p_l* just checked what he is going to use in AI course... it appears that said Java Expert Shell looks like AI-specialised Lisp... 07:05:27 she wants it 07:06:08 lnostdal: that annotation did help. however i still have a doubt. for the "initform" part, if i give a ":" before the ",s", i get an error 07:06:13 spradnyesh: I find the syntax of DEFCLASS to be overly verbose, too, but I'm not font of DEFCLASS* either. This is a known discussion which comes up again and again. 07:06:17 any hints about how i should go about it? 07:06:42 tcr: am reading the defclass* documentation now. lemme see how i find it :) 07:06:49 -!- Strav [n=user@dsl-216-221-37-177.aei.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:06:55 also, i didn't get why you asked me about me using emacs or not 07:07:00 schmx [n=marcus@c83-249-81-1.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:07:21 spradnyesh, yeah, convert the name to a string, prepend it with the : character .. then convert it back to a symbol .. alexandria (a CL lib) have some tools to do this 07:07:50 lnostdal: thanks. will look at alexandri 07:07:55 *alexandria 07:08:05 spradnyesh: (09:04:57) tcr: spradnyesh: Take a look at redshank; that's a package that basically writes the DEFCLASS definitions for you. 07:08:11 spradnyesh: Redshank is an addon to Slime 07:08:23 right now i'm trying to install redshank and read some documentation about it 07:09:13 lnostdal annotated #79971 "initargs too" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79971#2 07:10:58 lnostdal: thanks for the new annotation too 07:11:11 what the other people say here is true though .. it's probably better to find another way to cope, in this case 07:11:27 however, i need to go now. will be back in some time. thanks for all the help guys 07:14:06 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:20 anyone know how to uncomment a region in the LW Editor? 07:14:28 apropos "uncomment" turns up nothing 07:18:22 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 07:18:32 how's the lw ide turning out? 07:19:18 it's a pain in the read-end, that's what it is 07:20:09 i might have to write a keychord to filter my file with an external program, like emacs.exe to uncomment a region 07:20:11 dizpater [n=dizpater@72-62-99-55.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:34 -!- dizpater [n=dizpater@72-62-99-55.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:20:54 and this righteous customer anger of mine is squarely directed at LW Free Edition. 07:21:38 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:23:08 and google searches of for the usual strings returns angry rants by .. me! 07:24:58 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.227.142] has joined #lisp 07:25:27 fusss: You can use LW with Slime? 07:26:47 tcr: LW Pro. they gave me a full demo and I couldn't figure out how (surprise surprise.) They upgraded the system and broke Bill Clementson's tutorial. you need to dump a new image without the editor, and you can't dump image without Pro. 07:28:30 g'day 07:28:48 I'm pretty sure he could have uncommented the region manually by now 07:29:24 not manually, emacs 07:29:55 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 07:30:40 but it would be good to know how to do it in LW (aside from a regex search and replace s/^;//g 07:33:14 fusss: There's an active lispworks user group list 07:33:25 heh :-D 07:33:26 tombom [i=tombom@86.9.236.79] has joined #lisp 07:34:49 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:36:48 Vegan [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.110] has joined #lisp 07:37:43 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-103-164.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 07:45:01 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl481.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 07:45:23 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.227.142] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:52:26 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:52:36 semyon421 [n=semyon@217.67.122.44] has joined #lisp 07:53:30 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 07:53:34 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:55:48 -!- semyon421 [n=semyon@217.67.122.44] has quit [Client Quit] 07:55:59 semyon421 [n=semyon@217.67.122.44] has joined #lisp 07:59:21 loxs [n=loxs@87-126-185-9.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 08:00:05 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:00:53 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:44 spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@117.192.18.195] has joined #lisp 08:03:30 -!- pfhaust [n=mike@c-71-227-167-254.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:10:38 -!- slashus2 [n=dex@74-141-105-89.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [] 08:12:04 stassats`: here? 08:13:48 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:14:41 export TAILACS='tail -f /tmp/hunchentoot/access'; export TAILMSG='tail -f /tmp/hunchentoot/message'; splitvt -upper $TAILACS -lower $TAILMSG :-) 08:17:23 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.12.201] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:22:38 ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 08:25:26 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student164-134.hampshire.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:34:33 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:23 ejs1 [n=eugen@140-114-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:45 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 08:45:45 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:50:05 algal [n=algal@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:52:28 -!- saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [] 08:56:46 -!- semyon421 [n=semyon@217.67.122.44] has quit ["leaving"] 08:56:58 semyon421 [n=semyon@217.67.122.44] has joined #lisp 08:57:03 -!- algal [n=algal@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 08:57:27 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 08:59:59 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46FD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:04 -!- semyon421 [n=semyon@217.67.122.44] has quit ["leaving"] 09:03:36 semyon421 [n=semyon@217.67.122.44] has joined #lisp 09:08:41 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:08:45 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:08:52 i must have messed up something in hunchentoot. (stop *site*) hangs until the first incoming request, then it returns. 09:09:59 i also noticed that something in bt keeps ht threads lingering around for a few seconds, after they terminate (GC issue?) I would love to just have them exit immediately. 09:11:56 http sucks anyways, why bother? 09:12:08 For the money. 09:12:46 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 09:12:48 fusss, there was recent talk about this problem .. i think it's fixed in svn of HT 09:13:14 lnostdal: you should know :-) thank you 09:13:43 which one though, the never returning STOP or the zombie threads? 09:13:55 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:14:17 i was referring to the first thing you mentioned 09:14:41 ok, cheers! 09:15:32 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 09:15:41 btw, besides tweaking the configuration of acceptor and task-master classes, do you have any ht optimization tricks you can pass on to me? 09:16:13 i'm very close to gutting the whole thing and bringing in a few friends from sb-posix, but i'm hesitant atm 09:16:30 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:16:34 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:16:51 nope, not really .. i haven't used HT in quite a while 09:18:23 i think i'm gonna benchmark around stuff that calls write-sequence; i might end up doing my own buffer management with straight system calls 09:23:09 -!- loxs [n=loxs@87-126-185-9.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:23:28 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 09:24:40 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087D838.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:12 addled [n=adl@77.208.96.30] has joined #lisp 09:27:43 nite 09:27:44 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 09:29:51 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:30:01 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:34:21 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-38-59.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:35:30 brandelune [n=suzume@210.136.182.244] has joined #lisp 09:37:00 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-140-32.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:38:54 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:39:36 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:39:38 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:40:30 day 09:40:38 err morning 09:40:46 hello controll 09:40:51 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 09:40:51 afternoon 09:41:11 -!- grizzlor [n=Tyler@72.92.236.204] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:41:45 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:42:00 good afternoon 09:42:15 hello nikodemus 09:43:10 how long copying and pasting before taking a brake? 09:43:23 hello :) 09:45:17 anything new going one? 09:45:55 dfd- [n=doorby@151.23.35.107] has joined #lisp 09:46:00 how is the normal time of continuous codingL 09:46:01 Hello 09:46:17 hello dfd- 09:46:17 controll: depends on the job, I take breaks when I get bored 09:46:29 LMAO 09:46:41 that's sounds like a deal!! :D 09:46:42 why isn't nthcdr setf-able? Is there another way to (setf (nthcdr index list) ...) ? 09:47:18 (setf (car/cdr (nthcdr ...)) ...) ? 09:47:31 uhm, I try 09:48:01 stassats`, that works 09:48:05 thanks very much :-) 09:48:28 I used (setf (cdr (nthcdr (1- index) list)) ...) 09:48:38 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@140-114-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:48:50 I'll wrap that in a function. 09:49:55 *stassats`* foresee the next question 09:50:13 ahah 09:50:23 do you mean that setf will change my local variable? 09:50:31 Should I use a macro in those situations? 09:50:43 I'm just starting coding in CL 09:50:58 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:26 dfd-: The problem will be if you need to insert a cell at the beginning of a list. 09:51:30 nah I'll better not use a macro, I'll setq what the function returns.. 09:52:00 right.. nthcdr doesn't accept non-positive integers 09:52:23 lisp is so funny :) 09:52:33 do you get amused coding in lisp? 09:52:44 every time 09:54:05 My program had 500 LOC before I wrote a couple macros. Now it has just 350 LOC :) 09:54:18 this is good, haha 09:54:45 bah. I wish to ramble on a bit about my program and why it isn't doing everything I might wish it to do. in an undirected fashion. 09:54:58 -!- spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@117.192.18.195] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:55:03 by way of hopefully solving my problem by talking it out. 09:55:14 so I'm writing a lexical-analyzer generator, right? 09:55:17 rubber duck debugging? 09:55:27 do you happen to have a rubber duck? 09:55:28 yes, just so. except it's not a bug per se, it's a feature I can't figure out how to add. 09:55:40 you people are more useful to talk to than a rubber duck, even if you don't say anything in response =p 09:55:48 although there is one I could obtain, actually 09:57:01 in other languages this is traditionally implemented with a precompilation pass 09:57:03 dankna: I am interested in listening because I have thought about such things. 09:57:11 beach: cool, haha, well feel free 09:57:21 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.15.168] has joined #lisp 09:58:00 this is not how mine is currently implemented, however; instead it's a macro that calls, at macro-expansion time, a function that performs the table generation; it then expands into a defun 09:58:24 that's questionable practice, but at least it obtains the desired result that the fasl will have the table already in it, rather than generating the table at fasl-load time 09:59:01 I'm not necessarily opposed to making it actually generate a new file and compile that file, though, and I think I may have to 09:59:24 but that's a shame because then I'll want to do an asdf extension for it, and I hate messing with asdf internals 09:59:52 dankna: Why is your current method questionable? 10:00:03 well, because it runs into complications 10:00:23 partly because you aren't really "supposed" to do significant work at macro-expansion time 10:00:40 but I guess that's okay in this case because that really is the appropriate time for it 10:00:43 Tell that to Paul Graham 10:00:45 haha 10:00:47 well, yeah 10:00:53 stassats`: I'm interested in your M-. for elisp functions. Could you paste it? 10:01:32 so to use it, you have a form like (define-lexer lexer-name (parameters) clauses...) 10:01:51 tcr: ok 10:02:04 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@210.136.182.244] has left #lisp 10:02:18 leaving out some features that aren't relevant, each clause is an s-expression representing a regular expression, followed by the code to be executed when that expression matches 10:02:37 now, it would be really nice if the regexp could get eval'ed at some point 10:02:38 brandelune [n=suzume@pl244.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:03:03 because then I could use defined variables for common subexpressions 10:03:12 ie, by wrapping the entire define-lexer in a let 10:03:20 tcr: http://github.com/stassats/emacs-config/blob/dc02fc4d2c6f03364979f8febc8d1ac893d27312/init_lisp.el#L111 10:03:34 I can of course explicitly call eval, but then I lose the lexical environment and my variables don't work 10:03:43 it doesn't handle functions in C 10:04:03 remember that I'm talking to myself here, so this is very condensed and not necessarily meant to be comprehensible, but beach, if you're following along and are confused by anything, just ask :) 10:04:57 stassats`: Thought about sending that upstream? 10:05:04 dankna: I think I am following. I don't know the details of your syntax, but I think I know what you mean by factoring common subexpressions. 10:05:10 nod, well cool 10:05:24 so that's the feature I want to add. or possibly I don't need to add it because I can do something clever and outside-the-boxy to fill the same need 10:05:38 like maybe adding defined variables as a feature that define-lexer understands 10:05:40 dankna: I assume you want to be able to have regular expressions such as (concatenate r1 r2)? 10:05:47 yes indeed 10:06:12 or even the simpler case where I want to declare a class of characters (say, everything that's legal in an identifier) and use it in two separate expressions that both deal with identifiers 10:06:26 sure, yes. 10:06:26 tcr: no, at least not in that state 10:06:41 Macro expansion works from inner to outer forms, right? It won't never happen that my macro will have a macro as parameter, right? 10:07:41 dfd-: It's the other way around. When a macro is seen, it is called with its arguments unevaluated. 10:07:43 dfd: You know, I was about to say "correct" when I realized that I don't really know. I think it might be the other way around, in fact, because that makes more sense in terms of having enough information available to process it. 10:08:01 ah - but beach does. good good. 10:08:16 beach, even if it's arguments are macro themselvers? 10:08:22 dfd: if you want to avoid having macros in your macros, try calling macroexpand explicitly 10:08:23 s/it's/its/ sorry 10:08:56 dfd-: The arguments are not examined at all, but passed directly to the macro function. 10:09:00 because Lisp can't know whether the forms inside your macro are destined for evaluation 10:09:08 they might be data, for example 10:09:16 in which case macroexpanding them would be wrong 10:09:31 cool 10:09:36 this is the way setf works? 10:09:43 correct 10:09:53 well, setf internals are complicated, but that's the essential trick it usees 10:09:54 *uses 10:10:05 so actually, I think I'm leaning towards introducing some syntax into my thing, hopefully not TOO crufty, to let the user define variables 10:10:06 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-140-32.vodafone.hu] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:10:10 then I can keep my current implementation 10:10:19 instead of rewriting it to do the work at a different time or something 10:10:28 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-140-32.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:11:01 the obvious thing is, then it's not possible to have user functions do the work of constructing the regexp 10:11:08 interesting, thanks 10:11:18 stassats`: Right, but I think it'd be worthwhile. 10:11:33 but I'm not sure there's really any important use-cases for that 10:11:45 ejs1 [n=eugen@81-252-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:45 full generality is fun, but in this case it turns out to be hard to provide, and it might not be worth the effort 10:12:30 after all, thousands of people have written lex, flex, and antlr grammars that have no such capability, heh 10:13:19 I do need a much terser notation for my character-classes though... I should get on that, heh. right now it's just ludicrously verbose. but that's not really relevant at all. 10:13:19 mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0b6313a8010f9aba] has joined #lisp 10:13:55 okay, so I think I'm decided on what I'm going to do. the input which you all provided was very valuable, and to everyone who gave any, I thank you! haha. 10:16:25 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.148.139] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:16:31 that didn't quite work. I was going for a joke along the lines of "all the input I received was excellent." the joke being that I received none; of course, I didn't ask for any. okay, I'm going to stop talking before I start feeling silly. 10:17:13 milanj [n=milan@93.86.188.253] has joined #lisp 10:17:17 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-31-181.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 10:18:17 projections [n=p@78.180.224.198] has joined #lisp 10:19:57 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.15.168] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:20:22 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.2.5] has joined #lisp 10:22:56 :-P 10:31:00 dankna: consider my silence as approval. 10:31:12 haha, cool cool 10:36:50 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-103-164.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:38:38 nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has joined #lisp 10:38:45 G'morning all. 10:39:34 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.144.188] has joined #lisp 10:39:40 hello nyef 10:39:53 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46FD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 10:41:00 jao [n=jao@7.Red-83-38-58.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:35 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@217.155.101.22] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:42:41 morning, nyef 10:43:59 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E378.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:15 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@apn-89-223-252-36.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:48:30 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.2.5] has left #lisp 10:50:13 hi 10:50:43 nyef: can you try if did the lauchpad team thing correctly: can you twiddle importance now? 10:51:18 The form says I can. And there's a "Milestone" field that I don't remember from before. 10:51:24 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.110] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:56:15 good 10:57:31 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 10:58:17 Ok, My Lisp can now use logical pathnames and I access them with #L"HOME:LISP;PROJECT;FILE.LISP" or #L"SHARE;LISP;PROJECT.LISP" for stuff under clbuild 10:59:06 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 10:59:07 That translate-logical-pathname just got too tedious to type.. 11:00:14 ... But... You can pass LPNs directly to OPEN, and almost any other user-level file operation. 11:00:54 And part of the wonder of LPNs is using them to put your fasls somewhere else. 11:02:53 Really.. I'll look into it. 11:03:19 minion: Paste 79210? 11:03:19 Paste number 79210: "An SBCL build-system hack" by nyef in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/79210 11:03:45 Gives a bit of an example. 11:05:01 Also hacked it so I could use logical pathnames to get files in emacs. (Translate the name using Swank and passing on to emacs) 11:05:11 nyef: thanks 11:05:56 Doesn't that work anyway? I know that SBCL source-locations for the system files are all in SYS:SRC; and that typically "works". 11:06:48 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@81-252-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:07:41 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-140-32.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:07:51 sigh, apparently I am new to this stuff 11:07:55 I guess it'd be a one-way mapping, though. You can easily arrange things so the same file is accessible via multiple LPNs and since emacs uses the PPN... 11:08:35 you are an early bird, huh, nyef? 11:08:36 (And symlinks make it even worse.) 11:08:50 manic12: Trying a bit of an experiment, actually. 11:08:52 nikodemus: If I break into a function in sb-c, and while sldb is open, I try to M-. on another function in sb-c, it gets stuck waiting for a lock 11:09:27 nikodemus: I'm not sure what could cause this, the only thing perhaps the package debootstrapping hook? 11:09:30 manic12: I noticed that there wasn't much point in staying up late while I'm in north dakota, so why not go to bed early and get up early enough to do some real work before heading into the office? 11:09:42 What I want to do is usually to edit a file and then save it. For that is seems to work. I'll give a couple of day's of use, and then see 11:09:50 what are you doing in ND? 11:10:10 tcr: Probably trying to compile something and choking on the compiler lock. 11:10:14 manic12: Work. 11:10:36 ew 11:10:46 Could be worse. 11:11:31 I'm just giving you (and ND) a hard time 11:12:24 ND is very pretty, and a lot less wet-looking than it was three weeks ago, at least from this vantage point. 11:15:00 tcr: my first guess would be the big compiler lock 11:16:04 (i assume you're using :spawn) 11:17:31 nikodemus: I think that was a false alarm. It was just unbearable slow due to lots of debugging output. 11:17:40 ah 11:20:02 Well, gotta try to get my old blog software ported from LispWorks to SBCL. There is a new huncentoot interface and I use postgresql rather than a MySQL server. 11:20:05 later.. 11:20:13 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 11:22:47 Xof: around? 11:23:22 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@apn-89-223-252-36.vodafone.hu] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:24:04 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@apn-89-223-252-36.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 11:24:05 mankork [n=uashidha@host-84-221-208-116.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 11:24:07 hi 11:24:08 do lexical variables that behave to closure's environment occupy the namespace of the global variables? 11:24:43 mankork: I don't understand. What do you mean? 11:24:53 As "global" variables are an implementation extension, would it not depend on the implementation? 11:25:00 uhm 11:25:56 I'm speaking in general, not only for lisp 11:25:59 closures in general 11:26:00 -!- MrSpec is now known as spec[away] 11:26:14 That -really- depends on your implementation/language now. 11:26:40 got it 11:26:43 thx 11:26:53 the notion of namespace is a bit fuzzy as well 11:26:56 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:27:53 *nyef* has a sudden mental image of namespaces being little fuzzballs with feet running around someones office. 11:28:18 smirk 11:28:21 but really, if it's a closure over X, then inside its lexical scope all references to X should be to the thing closed over, and there should be no way to directly access X from outside the closure (without magic, at least) 11:28:43 uhm 11:28:58 so i don't see how namespaces and globals really get into it in any language with sensible closures 11:29:09 At the same time, it would not be inconcievable for the global variable namespace to be sufficiently disjoint from the local variable namespace as to not overlap at all... 11:29:24 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:30:00 Vegan [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.110] has joined #lisp 11:30:19 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 11:30:53 you are saying then that if there is a global variable and a closure that access to it, this variable isn't accessible without using the closure? 11:31:12 No, we're not. 11:31:15 can you tell use what you think a closure is? 11:31:24 because i sense some confusion here 11:31:28 *nyef* thinks it's a web browser. 11:32:16 a closure is a structure where you can associate a function with its definition environment 11:32:21 right? 11:32:25 (lambda () *foo*) is not a closure: it's just a function that returns the value of a global variable 11:32:46 chris2 [n=chris@p5B1690A5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:33:00 (let ((x 0)) (lambda () (incf x))) is a closure: X is the variable being closed over 11:33:15 uhm 11:33:20 do you see the difference? 11:33:43 you can stick (INCF *FOO*) in the first one for good measure, and the same holds true 11:34:19 can you make an example in a non functional language? because I'm new in lisp and i think that I'll understand better :) 11:34:33 I'm not aware of any non-functional language that has closures 11:34:42 javascript 11:34:52 JS is functional, actually, though I'm loath to admit it 11:35:07 I think it has only dynamic scope and no proper closures, though 11:35:09 shelducks [n=cant@80-41-252-138.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 11:35:20 my memory might be wrong on that 11:35:25 algol? 11:35:31 haha, nice idea 11:35:50 c# delegates are not closures but similar right? 11:36:10 it would help to know C# to answer that question, and I don't 11:36:12 smalltalk another non functional language 11:36:23 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:37 closures are not really a useful feature without higher-order functions, so, uhhh 11:36:41 anyway 11:36:46 the simplest I can put it is 11:36:52 in nikodemus's example 11:36:55 a := 1 ^[ a + 2] 11:37:09 you can use the block anywhere and a will still be 1 11:37:10 if the lambda didn't make use of x, there would be no reason for x to continue to exist after the let form finished executing 11:37:35 mmm 11:37:36 but because it was referenced from inside the lambda, the lambda is a closure - it "closes over x" 11:37:49 and the compiler has to ensure that x is kept around at least as long as the closure is 11:38:08 dankna: Perl 5? 11:38:09 otherwise it doesn't make sense for the lambda to refer to x at all, see? 11:38:10 mankork: you know C, automatic vs static variables? 11:38:18 Perl 5? Haha, another interesting idea. 11:38:31 yes I know nikodemus 11:38:38 dankna: I'm thinking at it 11:39:19 ok, so int foo () { static int x = 0; return x; } is (let ((x 0)) (defun foo () x)) 11:39:28 ! 11:39:29 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:39:38 each call to foo returns 0, right? 11:39:49 your analogy isn't perfect though 11:39:50 yes 11:39:58 because in Lisp, each invocation creates a new instance of the variable 11:40:04 but close enough 11:40:08 closer than I thought you could get 11:40:18 and the initialization might instead be a call to another function, etc 11:40:22 nikodemus: Do you why sb-c::find-error-context first tries to look at *CURRENT-PATH* before looking at the context node-source-path? 11:40:28 no 11:40:28 It's not perfect because it breaks down as soon as you add another function to the closure. 11:40:30 i don't 11:40:53 that, as well. 11:41:14 now, imagine you could do int foo () { static int x = 0; return x++; } -- each call would return a value one greater than the last 11:41:32 yes of course 11:41:34 but you can't, 'cos that's not how static variables work 11:41:41 you can do that, actually ^^''' (emoticon denotes three-times-giant sweatdrop) 11:41:51 uhm 11:42:03 ... Sure you can do that. Static variables have indefinate extent. 11:42:09 oops 11:42:11 are you sure that you can't?? 11:42:25 bad example 11:42:39 no, actually, this is still good 11:42:41 that code it should work 11:42:53 The good example is both the accessor and the incrementor in one closure. 11:42:55 yes, and the example will be better for that 11:43:20 so that would be (let ((x 0)) (defun foo () (incf x))) using a closure 11:43:42 (incf x) is same as ++x 11:43:48 k 11:43:49 Of course, a purely functional language wouldn't allow you to mutate the closure bindings. 11:44:15 do you need closures then? 11:44:33 now, are you familiar with anonymous functions? 11:44:34 stassats`: For "hidden" argument passing? Yes. 11:44:44 yes 11:45:00 (lambda (x) (* x 2)) is an anonymous functions that multiplies it's argument with 2, etc 11:45:12 I still don't understand the relationship with global variables 11:45:19 coming there 11:45:22 kk 11:45:35 good, so think about (defun foo (x) (lambda () (incf x)) 11:46:35 mankork: "Closures" typically mean lexical closures, i.e. they close over the lexical environment. "global" variables in Common Lisp are dynamically scoped and as such not part of an lexical environment 11:46:57 calling (foo 0) gives you an anonymous function that returns increasing numbers starting from 1, calling (foo 123) gives you one that starts from 124 -- and calling one cannot mess the other up 11:47:03 ahhhh 11:47:06 got it 11:47:17 X is "closed over" 11:47:44 but if the global variables were statically scoped? 11:48:09 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:15 Then they'd be closed over, too. 11:48:27 uhm 11:48:29 unless you have dynamically bound variables, it doesn't matter 11:48:42 statically scoped like in C? in C, static scope means not visible to code lexically outside that source file. Lisp has no such concept. 11:48:55 Athas` [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 11:49:10 No such concept, but it's pretty easy to implement. What you do is construct a closure... 11:49:23 uhm 11:49:33 haha 11:49:36 true... 11:49:51 mankork: but sematics aside, you can probably see that it would be a bad idea for (defun foo (x) (lambda () (incf x))) to change meaning depending on if X happened to be a global as well -- hard to notice, easy write, hard to debug, horrible bugs abound 11:50:33 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@apn-89-223-252-36.vodafone.hu] has quit [Success] 11:50:35 I'm messing up :D 11:50:39 anyway, 11:50:47 (Hence "earmuffs".) 11:50:55 ironically, it changes meaning in common lisp if X is a "special" variable -- which is why they are always named *with-earmuffs* so that accidents won't happen 11:51:03 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@apn-89-223-252-36.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 11:51:26 nikodemus: So, it occurred to me that the use of %%foo%% has historical precedent in SBCL. In the assembler. 11:51:38 the core of all is the word "enclose", what does it means exactly ? (sorry for all the questions..) 11:52:00 contain lexically (textually) 11:52:14 was that the question? 11:52:54 enclosing the scope = contain lexically the scope?????? 11:53:38 what's the full sentence "enclosing the scope" was part of? that's a bit of a weird way to say it 11:53:41 minion: tell mankork about sicp 11:53:42 mankork: have a look at sicp: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available gratis from (HTML), (texinfo) and (XHTML, PDF). Accompanying video lectures are available gratis at 11:54:13 thanks for the link :) 11:54:29 it's a really good book, and will teach you all you need to know about closures -- and 60% of what you need to know about cs in general 11:54:39 -!- addled [n=adl@77.208.96.30] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:55:41 :) 11:56:13 (IMO the remaining 30% is data structures and algorithms and big-Oh, and 10% is uh, um, let's call them real-world details) 11:56:28 your percentages may vary :) 11:57:04 mib_e34awj [i=95a97bbe@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-957ccff1452e9c2f] has joined #lisp 11:57:16 thanks for all 11:57:45 mjf [n=mjf@r3a98.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 11:58:23 hm, MAKE-LUTEX is making my life hard :/ 11:58:26 -!- mankork is now known as anabor 11:58:35 Hi, i am new to LISP I want to know that if you are doing recursion and want to return to the last line that called the function what can I use... Return-from returns from the whole block.... Seems I cant use it... 11:59:46 minion: tell mib_e34awj about lisppaste 11:59:47 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 12:00:09 mib_e34awj: defun automatically defines a block of the same name as the function around the body. So you can (RETURN-FROM the-function-name the-result) 12:00:13 normally you don't need to explicitly return at all 12:00:46 is (eql (imagpart (complex a b)) b) guaranteed? provided that both a and b are integers 12:01:17 No, because complexes are only defined for float formats? 12:01:23 nyef: no. 12:01:32 Really? 12:01:35 nyef: there are even rational complexes. 12:01:41 If the stack is n-deep then retrun-from returns completely.... 12:01:57 *nyef* doesn't remember seeing them in the primobj definitions. 12:02:00 I need to return to the last point... 12:02:02 mib_e34awj: return-from returns only from the deepest block with the given name. 12:02:34 (defun fac (n) (if (> n 0) (* n (fac (- n 1))) 1)) ; see, no need for return 12:02:46 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Success] 12:02:57 Ah, either rational or the same float type. 12:03:16 but you can also write: (defun fac (n) (when (plusp n) (return-from fac (* n (fac (- n 1))))) 1) 12:03:17 (defun fac (n) (if (> n 0) (return-from fac (* n (fac (- n 1)))) (return-from fac 1))) ; but this does exactly the same 12:03:25 Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-69-14.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:03:28 there's an echo here :) 12:06:23 jophish [n=jophish@dial-80-47-3-226.access.uk.tiscali.com] has joined #lisp 12:06:37 nikodemus: Thanks 12:08:46 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:09:58 mib_e34awj: Not sure what you are asking for. Do you want the entire stack to be collapsed, so that you return from the first invocation of the function? 12:11:43 Got the idea... I wanted to return to the last caller, not collapsing the entire stack... nikodemus suggested the right thing 12:12:04 OK 12:13:33 LISP is hard learning curve is pretty steep... I am reading from the peter seibels book... But it is still not easy... 12:13:39 Lisp 12:14:28 yeah, but it's hard for precisely the reason that it's worth learning: it contains important ideas that you won't find in "easier" languages 12:14:44 I have actually never seen such concise code... 12:14:58 I am trying to comlete a prolog style compiler 12:14:59 look at APL 12:15:07 in Lisp 12:15:18 As an exercise to learn it 12:15:21 (there's an old program called Screamer that's exactly that) 12:16:59 Didn't Xof do something along those lines with PAIP's prolog implementation? 12:17:09 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@apn-89-223-252-36.vodafone.hu] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:17:34 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@apn-89-223-252-36.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 12:18:30 -!- anabor [n=uashidha@host-84-221-208-116.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:18:38 Athas`` [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 12:18:43 Basically the compiler is doing theorem prooving by solving First order horn clauses and some facts.... Pretty interesting... 12:18:54 yes, it is 12:19:03 -!- Athas`` is now known as Athas 12:22:28 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 12:24:38 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:27:38 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-3.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 12:30:45 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:31:31 addled [n=adl@62-87-82-186.red-acceso.airtel.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:27 -!- Athas` [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:33:16 macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:38:53 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r3a98.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:41:04 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/12-6.html#_643 <- does the existence of DEALLOCATE-PIXMAP imply that pixmaps are not garbage collected? 12:41:38 They're server resources, aren't they? 12:42:16 *nyef* would be surprised if pixmaps -were- garbage collected. 12:43:27 nyef: they are yes. 12:44:51 Athas` [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 12:45:01 kpreid: Since pixmaps are server-side resources, the server needs to be told when it can deallocate them. 12:48:04 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 12:48:35 nyef: I guess we could have used finalizers. 12:48:48 Unreliable, and you know it. 12:48:54 I do, yes. 12:49:07 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:48 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 12:57:25 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 12:58:19 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:59:18 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:59:35 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:00:07 -!- Athas` [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has left #lisp 13:01:08 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 13:01:52 i have a (possibly stupid) question about the local-time library. why does encode-timestamp take an offset, rather than a timezone? 13:02:24 Saves needing a timezone database? 13:02:30 macdice: How would the timezone be represented? 13:02:57 well local-time has a timezone database, and it has timezone objects which know all the offsets that applied in different time ranges 13:03:14 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-219-182.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:03:49 Aren't there places that still use solar time? 13:04:59 macdice: timezones *change*. ISO standard for representing time has offsets, too 13:05:12 but the library exists for the purpose of wrapping the posix timezone db 13:05:32 actually 13:05:34 there is a good reason 13:05:34 right, but local-time knows about all those changes (it uses the olsen timezone database) 13:05:47 given a timezone you can always look up the offset for it 13:05:53 how? 13:05:54 given an offset you cannot look up the timezone 13:05:56 you need a timestamp first 13:06:00 well, I mean, if you have the library available 13:06:01 and you can't get a timestamp without an offset... 13:06:03 chicken, egg 13:06:06 oh, hm 13:06:28 workaround would be, make a timestamp in UTC 13:06:31 Uh-oh. Anything using sound on my system just locked up. 13:06:59 ok so i wondered about that -- it might break on the day that daylight savings changes 13:07:07 hmm 13:07:09 test it 13:07:19 but it shouldn't - it's the same moment in time 13:07:32 i believe most countries use 2am on sunday morning to change their clocks 13:08:13 macdice: a logical timezone's numeric offset depends a the actual timestamp (summer time changes, political changes) 13:08:28 s/a/on/ 13:08:45 ah, the author of the library, hello :-) 13:09:21 actually it's dlowe, i'm just patching sometimes... but hi nevertheless! :) 13:09:30 ok, but let's say i have the following information: 2009-01-01 12:42:00 America/New_York 13:09:34 now can i make a timestamp? 13:10:38 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:07 it seems like i could use the algorithm proposed by dankna: make a timestamp for 2009-01-01 12:42:00 UTC, and then ask what the offset in the America/New_York timezone is at that instant, and then make a second timestamp... 13:11:25 but that could be wrong, i could construct a case that would screw up... 13:11:38 yeah, now that I've thought it through that isn't such a hot idea 13:12:17 NY is 4-5 hours behind UTC, and daylight savings changes at 2AM on sunday morning in some/most countries, so the two points in time would fall on different New York dates :-) 13:12:53 I had been thinking "well, it's the same moment in time, it's just a matter of setting which timezone is associated with it" 13:12:56 but it's not the same moment in time 13:14:08 There is a two hour stretch each year which maps to the same hour of local time in new york. 13:14:29 well - those are diffrent subtimezones, in the terminology local-time uses 13:14:40 1AM EST vs 1AM EDT 13:14:47 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:14:51 Right. 13:16:42 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:17:18 -!- _8david [n=user@pD9541989.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:17:42 in the olsen-based system used by most (all?) unixes, you can set TZ to America/New_York and then use libc routines to convert 12:42:00 or whatever to a unix timestamp (although clearly it must use some arbitrary choice for one ambiguous hour per year as nyef says) 13:17:43 nyef: whaddaya mean unreliable? Isn't it the case that once an object is garbage [sbcl] finalizers will execute OR the process will exit? 13:17:56 but it seems that i can't do that with local-time 13:18:19 holycow [n=rtaylor@64.151.208.1] has joined #lisp 13:18:40 kpreid: Sure, but the latter case can occur an arbitrarily long time after the data becomes garbage. 13:19:00 doesn't plexippus xpath implement all the standard xpath functions? With "[contains(@something,'bla')]" I get all nodes where attribute 'something' contain 'bla', but with 'matches' I get an error: "no such function" of type xpath:xpath-error 13:19:12 nyef: I'm aware of the consequences of generational GC &c 13:19:16 or isn't 'matches' a standard part of xpath? 13:19:48 same thing with 'ends-with' (which is what I actually want to use, I think) 13:20:09 nyef: but I don't see why one shouldn't have finalizers so that 'occasional program error causes deallocate-pixmap to never execute' is not a permanent resource loss 13:20:46 Sure, no question there. But making that the only deallocation method is brainless. 13:20:47 that's what unwind-protect is for 13:21:04 though I can see a case for having finalizers too 13:21:39 dankna: UWP doesn't help if you need to keep an object around indefinately, which is why there is both WITH-OPEN-FILE and OPEN. 13:22:05 hrm 13:22:06 fair 13:22:10 nyef: I agree 13:22:21 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:48 nyef: but I think *not* providing the finalizer is brainless too. 13:26:23 Right, not going to argue that. 13:27:05 Which means I should ammend my earlier statement to "reliably garbage collected". 13:27:28 b 13:27:51 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 13:27:54 hmm. so i checked the naggum paper which local-time is based on. in naggum's paper, encode-timestamp DOES take a timezone, instead of an offset 13:28:41 submit a patch :) 13:29:01 I looked at the manual and it struck me as odd that you can't do anything with a timezone object except construct it 13:29:06 the public API doesn't let you query it, for example 13:29:26 if changes to the library are on the table, documenting whatever internal functions exist for that seems like it would be a good one 13:31:01 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.144.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:31:45 define-timezone is a bit weird eh. why not load-timezone? 13:32:32 ok i might take a look and see what's involved in making that change, but i have a sneaking suspicion that everything to do with timezones is a lot harder than it looks... 13:33:36 bhyde_ [n=bhyde@c-24-61-84-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:42 you're right on that 13:34:08 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 13:34:11 morning 13:34:26 Hello splittist. 13:34:44 morning 13:35:00 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:35:26 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:26 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 13:36:59 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:41:07 -!- mib_8wi60hmp [i=4581cf65@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-641f9dff6c5b011c] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 13:43:02 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:43:12 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-252-82.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 13:43:49 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-252-36.vodafone.hu] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:44:35 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-252-36.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:45:11 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 13:47:05 What was the prospect of using MPS? 13:48:59 hello splittist 13:49:15 Something about it being largely useless, due to being both extremely complex and not well-packaged/documented? 13:49:52 minion: mps? 13:49:53 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``mps''. 13:50:05 minion: What does MPS stand for? 13:50:05 Mollienisia Posttubercular Subcentrally 13:50:27 anabor [n=uashidha@host-84-221-208-116.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 13:51:23 http://www.ravenbrook.com/project/mps/ 13:52:25 -!- bhyde_ [n=bhyde@c-24-61-84-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:52:32 Thanks! 13:54:05 right, looking in the source of function.lisp in plexippus xpath I find 'starts-with', but not 'ends-with'. Added it, and now my code works. Should I send in a patch, or did I just miss something in the docs? 13:54:35 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:36 guess I should pose that question to lichtblau, huh?> 13:55:17 very likely. 13:55:40 Russel-Athletic [n=engelzz@wpa-uds035.funklan.uni-saarland.de] has joined #lisp 13:55:44 hiho 13:56:19 hello Russel-Athletic 13:56:50 i get a strange error: bad dimension in array type: fixnum when i declare an array in the following way: (declare (type (simple-array (simple-array fixnum)) formula) 13:57:43 ... That's a wierd way to declare arrays... 13:57:53 nyef: you could be right 13:58:07 clhs simple-array 13:58:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_smp_ar.htm 13:58:10 sounds to me like it's expecting a dimension and you're giving it an element-type 13:58:22 is it possible to unset or destroy a standard-method? 13:58:33 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:58:33 i am new to this type declaring and i didn't find any nice information about this 13:58:34 so what would be the right way 13:58:53 actually, you put the element type in the right place. hmm. 13:58:55 addled_ [n=adl@77.208.145.204] has joined #lisp 13:59:17 oh wait perhaps i know the error 13:59:34 i need the type of a vector which is not displaced but has a fill pointer 14:01:25 Well, for starters, that's not a simple-vector... 14:01:50 ok i tried it with vector now but i still get the same error 14:02:21 What are you actually trying to declare FORMULA as? 14:03:49 a resizeable array with content of constant size arrays of fixnums 14:03:52 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:04:11 Array or vector? 14:04:20 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 14:04:33 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:04:41 (vectors are arrays with only one dimension) 14:05:03 i don't know the terminoligy but i do something like this: (vector-push (make-array (length list) :initial-contents list) formula) 14:05:30 yes one dimension 14:05:32 Is LIST of constant length, or can it vary? 14:06:00 it can vary 14:06:06 Ragnaroek [i=54a641af@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d7a05d8071e4d8db] has joined #lisp 14:06:11 durka42 [n=durka@d192.mertza.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 14:06:14 (declare (type (vector (vector fixnum)) formula)) might work for you. 14:06:32 or to be precise: list can have different length but after i constructed everything it stays the same 14:06:53 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-252-36.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 14:06:55 That's fair. So the child arrays are of varying length. 14:06:57 Why fixnums? 14:07:47 because i have positive and negative integer numbers in there 14:08:18 -!- mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0b6313a8010f9aba] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 14:08:27 then use type integer 14:08:34 Do you know what the range of those integers is? 14:08:36 fixnum is more specific than integer 14:08:48 well 14:08:50 do what nyef is saying 14:09:09 no I don't know the range in advance 14:09:31 Oh, forgot something, didn't I? :element-type on the make-array in the vector-push. 14:09:46 if you don't know the range, fixnum is incorrect because you can't guarantee the integers will be in the range acceptable as fixnums 14:10:01 You don't know the range in advance but you're declaring fixnum, which has a fixed range? 14:10:06 but it can, in some situations that only the optimizer really understands, make a huge performance difference between fixnum and integer 14:10:14 (And an implementation-defined fixed range, at that?) 14:10:22 what is the range of fixnums? 14:10:27 implementation-dependent 14:11:06 It ranges from most-negative-fixnum to most-positive-fixnum. There is a guaranteed maximum value for the former and minimum value for the latter. 14:11:28 well this range seems to be fine for me 14:12:07 Also, if you declare an array to be of a specialized type, the array needs to be of that specialized type, or the compiler may generate code that will break. 14:12:32 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:12:46 ok thanks 14:12:54 -!- addled [n=adl@62-87-82-186.red-acceso.airtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:13:02 An array of arrays is going to be unspecialized, but an array of fixnum will tend to be specialized. At the same time, at least on some systems arrays of fixnums will have the same storage representation as an unspecialized array. 14:13:39 (Just learned a few things about array representation over the past couple days.) 14:14:38 so what does sbcl on linux do and what means specialized in this context? 14:15:02 *nyef* wishes specbot could do clhs glossary lookup. 14:15:05 Russel-Athletic: have a look at clhs glossary. 14:15:17 Ah. 14:15:21 clhs 15.1.2 14:15:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/15_ab.htm 14:15:27 (Specialized Arrays) 14:16:13 blitz_ [n=blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has joined #lisp 14:18:24 ok thanks for the help so far 14:19:38 I just discovered slime-connect can be called many times so I have multiple REPLs :-) 14:19:53 indeed it can! 14:19:55 I hope it is a feature (with SBCL), not a side effect 14:20:19 Heh. 15.1.2.1 contains the language that requires either there not be any specialized arrays or that there be a specialized array type for NIL (which thus can't hold any values). 14:21:41 jmbr [n=jmbr@206.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:24:06 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.243.40] has joined #lisp 14:26:19 *dankna* blinks 14:26:22 that's an interesting requirement 14:26:30 is there any reasoning behind it, or was it unintentional? 14:27:01 It is believed to be unintentional. 14:27:11 I see 14:27:39 mjf [n=mjf@213.220.192.98] has joined #lisp 14:27:45 Elsewhere, it is required that specialized arrays exist. 14:28:39 *dankna* nods 14:30:59 deepfire: what was that question about MPS about? 14:31:00 Essentially, because type NIL is a subtype of every type, and U-A-E-T of any type is required to preserve the subtype relationships for all specialized array types, there has to be a specialized array type for NIL, because NIL is a subtype of BIT and a subtype of CHARACTER, both of which are required per the specification of U-A-E-T. 14:31:25 (Oh, right, and BIT and CHARACTER are disjoint types. Forgot that part.) 14:33:20 Specialized arrays aren't subtypep to arrays that don't have the same specialization? Hunh. 14:33:41 hrm, I see 14:34:02 Actually, I guess that makes sense, aside from the case of (ARRAY T). 14:34:13 Err... (ARRAY *)? 14:34:15 Whichever. 14:36:23 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-235-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:40 -!- controll [n=nonamme@cpe-74-64-125-220.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:37:24 -!- anabor [n=uashidha@host-84-221-208-116.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:37:57 -!- Russel-Athletic [n=engelzz@wpa-uds035.funklan.uni-saarland.de] has quit ["leaving"] 14:38:27 fiveop [n=fiveop@217.230.214.55] has joined #lisp 14:39:23 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-235-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:39:33 $math.sqrt(100) 14:39:39 $math.sqrt(100) 14:39:44 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.110] has left #lisp 14:39:57 Yeah, you better leave before we hit you... 14:40:04 controll [n=nonamme@cpe-74-64-125-220.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:41:30 This reminds me of the "dirty telephone call" cited by Douglas Hofstadter, where the caller said "'yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation' yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation". 14:42:36 -!- Foofie is now known as Fufie 14:43:14 Which yields falsehood at a confidence of 50% and arrant nonsense at a confidence of 100%. 14:49:19 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-235-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:19 -!- holycow [n=rtaylor@64.151.208.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:50:18 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 14:50:42 holycow [n=rtaylor@64.151.208.1] has joined #lisp 14:51:07 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 14:51:16 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:51:53 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 14:53:32 guaqua, I was wondering whether people still consider MPS to be interesting, wrt. integrating it into SBCL. Idle interest actually. 14:53:42 On my part, that is. 14:53:44 -!- jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 14:53:56 *nyef* is missing sufficient context to know what "MPS" is. 14:54:35 nyef, that supposed swiss-army knife of GC: http://www.ravenbrook.com/project/mps/ 14:54:52 Ah. -That- MPS. 14:54:56 nyef: the super-duper gc the Ravenbrook types talked about at ILC2007 14:55:05 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B1690A5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:55:05 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:55:11 athos_ [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 14:56:22 I guess the doing would depend on what's involved, but I'd expect it to be fairly tricky. 14:56:49 And I suspect that most people find that the current GC works "well enough". 14:57:29 -!- athos_ [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Client Quit] 14:58:39 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@217.230.214.55] has quit ["humhum"] 14:58:44 deepfire: MPS looks very interesting. need to do something with it before being able to say... 15:03:09 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 15:05:44 I don't get what a CTRAN is. It comes from a block, and points to a node. Its purpose does not seem to connect blocks as a CBLOCK contains PRED and SUCC pointers. 15:05:55 A control transfer? 15:06:07 But what is that supposed to mean? 15:06:31 non-local exits, maybe? 15:07:22 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:28 But why does it point to a node, not a block? 15:07:36 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:07:47 I have no idea. 15:07:56 Is the node always the first one in a block? 15:08:00 -!- ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:08:09 I don't know :-) 15:08:19 Is it in case of block reordering / merging somehow? 15:08:32 This is not the part of the compiler I'm most familiar with. 15:09:05 I don't understand what your question is supposed to ask. Do you want to ask why I wanna know? 15:09:21 No, I'm suggesting possible reasons. 15:09:35 Well, the first one is a possible thing to change. 15:10:22 If the node isn't always the first in a block, then there's an obvious reason why it doesn't point to the block. 15:10:55 sure but in my definition a basic-block is defined by single-entry, single exit 15:11:03 Yeah, mine too, really. 15:11:34 Maybe one of the older python papers mentions something about this? 15:12:55 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:13:17 minion: logs 15:13:17 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 15:13:50 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 15:13:58 they wouldn't, a ctran is an sbcl concept (the cmucl concept would be "cont") 15:14:09 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:14:21 a ctran doesn't point from a block to a node, but from a node to a node 15:16:21 is there a searchable log archive somewhere? 15:16:37 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 15:16:38 minion: logs 15:16:39 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 15:16:55 i'm stressing the word searchable 15:17:06 Google, with a site: limiter. 15:17:09 guaqua: I just wget the lot and then use grep. 15:17:18 beach: yeah 15:17:25 nyef: was thinking about that 15:17:36 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-69-14.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:17:57 Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-68-203.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:18:02 guaqua: what would you want to search for? Google will give you the relevant 24 hour period. Then searching in your browser will give you the highlights... 15:18:49 splittist: already got what i wanted to find 15:20:22 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-234-19.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 15:20:56 -!- projections [n=p@78.180.224.198] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:22:56 well, not really. i remember someone mentioning the dragon book being outdated and that there's some other book that's more suggestable. any idea what it might be? 15:23:39 guaqua: for doing what? (sorry, I am only following this very superficially). 15:24:17 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-ede270d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:24:37 mikezor [n=mikael@c-ede270d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:24:38 for a compiler book. (there's no special context to this, you are expected to be superficial :) ) 15:25:03 anabor [n=uashidha@host-84-221-208-116.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 15:25:24 guaqua: If you are interested in real compiler stuff (as opposed to lexical analysis), then I recommend the Muchnick book. 15:25:31 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 15:25:41 beach: thanks, i'll look into it 15:26:12 guaqua: For parsing, I don't know if anything has happened since the Dragon book, but there are algorithms that have become feasible such as Tomita and Earley. 15:27:22 beach: you said earlier that implementing a significant subset of the Muchnick stuff in a lisp compiler would be a X-level thesis topic; what was the X? (Or does that depend on which subset and all the other stuff surrounding that actual implementation?) 15:28:36 splittist: I could have said that, but I don't remember doing to. I don't think X would be PhD unless one could find original algorithms. 15:28:48 s/to/so/ 15:29:28 splittist: Actually, I take that back. If sufficient performance could be the result, then there is probably a PhD in there. 15:29:31 beach: yes - that makes sense. (This was a while ago, in response to someone saying 'I'm looking for a masters (as it turns out) thesis topic'. 15:29:56 ) 15:30:01 splittist: On the other hand, I think it is too vast a topic for a Masters thesis. 15:32:08 guaqua: I like the Andrew Appel series, "Modern Compiler Implementation in " 15:33:05 disclaimer: I am not a PhD in compiler theory; this is just my opinion as a reader :) 15:33:42 implementing a bunch of algorithms from a textbook is too vast a topic? 15:34:12 jsnell: There are quite a few of them, and there is the question of representing the data structures. 15:36:59 otoh, I thought a master's thesis is supposed to on the order of 4 months of full time work 15:38:00 What nick does Bastian Müller use? 15:38:03 I would've said that just transcribing code from a book is pretty flimsy for a master's. but you're the professional :-) 15:38:06 Implementing an ICAN DSL might be interesting... 15:38:33 jsnell: You missed the part I said about data structures. 15:39:35 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:40:43 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:41:35 I didn't miss it. reimplementing some data structures in a different language hardly seems like a thesis topic either 15:42:39 jsnell: I don't have the book handy, but as I recall, the data structures are not that well defined, ans in what is the exact API for accessing and modifying them. I might be misremembering, of course. 15:46:24 -!- addled_ [n=adl@77.208.145.204] has quit [] 15:46:43 jsnell: If a CTRAN connects node to node, what's the meaning of the "if unique" comment for the -USE slot? 15:47:45 janis [n=janis@ppp-94-64-102-134.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:48:42 hi there!! can ou propose me of a quick and full getting-started tutorial? 15:48:50 could you*? 15:49:00 minion: tell janis about PCL 15:49:01 janis: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 15:51:25 attila_lendvai: i think i have a working patch that makes local-time:encode-timestamp accept either offset (like you have it now) or timezone (like naggum shows) 15:51:39 of course it's probably wrong :-) 15:53:08 (duh, he left while i was in a code bubble...) 15:53:50 thank you beach !! :) 15:54:03 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:54:20 janis: No problem. 15:54:58 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:56:52 janis: New here I take it? 15:57:13 yep! I know prolog, but never tried lisp 15:57:17 janis: What made you want to learn Lisp? 15:57:34 *beach* thinks it is funny that people compare Prolog and Lisp. 15:57:56 Actually, I am not quite certain yet, due to ltime limitation, but mostly curiocity 15:58:02 curiosity* 15:58:13 beach: "AI languages" :) 15:58:33 beach: Also, apparently a quite important *Java* AI tool uses... Lisp syntax 15:58:35 p_l: Yeah, still funny to me though. 15:58:37 "language that learning it will expand your mind and make you write better C++/Java" ? 15:58:38 prolog has a nice fast low level unification, but then usually you can make lisp do the same things just as effiecnt.. in the same way that you can do the same things in C 15:58:48 p_l: yes, that is the way I have sorted them in my mind :) 15:59:26 janis: Lisp is just a very powerful general-purpose language these days. 15:59:36 did I just say "just"? 15:59:51 dmiles, I can argue that simulating prolog in c would be an overkill.. but that's just me. :p 16:00:18 I am already intrigued, I must say 16:00:35 janis: Any right-thinking person should be. 16:00:42 janis: oh i mean some versions of TAP software that was meant to be prolog.. often people will write it in C for some reason.. and when you exampine their code its pretty much a prolog interpreter 16:01:13 dmiles, ah, I see. I have no knowledge on the subject though :) 16:01:18 Jess looks like Prolog with Lisp syntax implemented in Java 16:01:46 so technically the same thing can be done in lisp.. and it ends up being beter maintainable though and more power tools will surround the code 16:03:39 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 16:04:02 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:02 hough most implmentations of prolog done in lisp could be done much better 16:04:12 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d192.mertza.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 16:05:25 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:05:25 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@206.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:05:25 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:05:25 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202159110.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:05:25 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-164-161.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:05:25 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:05:25 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:05:25 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:05:25 -!- m4thias` [n=user@39.84-48-162.nextgentel.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:05:25 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:05:25 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:05:25 -!- koning_r1bot [n=aap@e244075.upc-e.chello.nl] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:05:25 -!- koollman [n=samson_t@sd-9780.dedibox.fr] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:05:25 -!- zilt [n=zilt@67.23.13.119] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:05:25 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:05:25 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:05:25 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:05:25 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:05:25 -!- cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:05:37 moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 16:06:00 -!- bdowning_ is now known as bdowning 16:06:12 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:06:13 m4thias` [n=user@39.84-48-162.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:06:17 jmbr [n=jmbr@206.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:08:20 -!- janis [n=janis@ppp-94-64-102-134.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:08:23 koollman [n=samson_t@sd-9780.dedibox.fr] has joined #lisp 16:08:50 I guess we made a bad impression? 16:08:53 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:09:38 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 16:10:00 koning_robot [n=aap@e244075.upc-e.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 16:10:05 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-164-161.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:12 zilt [n=zilt@67.23.13.119] has joined #lisp 16:10:32 -!- anabor [n=uashidha@host-84-221-208-116.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has left #lisp 16:11:48 beach: based on a quick browse through, it feels like pretty much everything interesting is just defined in terms of sets 16:11:58 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:31 jsnell: OK, and since we don't know how to represent arbitrary sets efficiently, APIs would have to be come up with. 16:13:28 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:07 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 16:18:57 Strav [n=user@dsl-216-221-37-177.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 16:19:28 tcr: I think that comment is probably a cmucl relic 16:19:57 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@neptune.pettomato.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:20:53 thanks 16:20:54 ;; In a :Block-Start contiuation, the Block's Start-Uses indicate whether NIL means no uses or more than one use. 16:21:26 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 16:23:50 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 16:24:28 He. I have some trouble with a package compiled using asdf. I've copied the sources into /usr/lib/sbcl/site/packagename/ then made a sym link to the .asd file in /usr/lib/sbcl/system-site/ then compiled using (asdf:operate 'asdf:compile-op :mypackage). If I try (require "my-package"), I can see it tries to load the fasl files from /usr/lib/sbcl/site/... but at some point, it restarts compiling. Anything I'm doing wrong with this? 16:25:13 (btw, the package in question is commonqt) 16:26:15 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 16:26:51 cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has joined #lisp 16:27:28 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-234-19.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 16:30:20 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 16:33:58 whats a good emacs tutorial and a good slime tutorial 16:34:56 jimi_hendrix: `C-h t' will start up the official emacs tutorial 16:35:19 jimi_hendrix: Marco Baringer's SLIME tutorial is great. 16:35:21 jimi_hendrix: For slime, watch marco baringer's slime.mov, it's dated but it'll still give you a feeling. 16:35:43 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["restart"] 16:35:45 jimi_hendrix: Then read through the slime manual, but make sure to read the one from the doc/ directory in your source checkout, not the one on the website 16:35:50 jimi_hendrix: ctrl-h i 16:36:07 m slime 16:36:11 m emacs ... 16:36:46 beach: if we sell Lisp as a general purpose programming language, doesn't it justify AI programmers in using C, C++ or Java to implement their AI programs? Thus nobody uses Lisp anymore. Perhaps it would have been better to keep selling Lisp to the AI niche. I wonder... 16:36:46 about my asdf question, am I touching a sensible subject here or? 16:36:51 projections_ [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has joined #lisp 16:37:35 pjb`: Yeah, but since AI is pretty much dead, that won't matter very much. 16:38:00 tcr, i did not install from src 16:38:04 AI is dead, but many of the subfields still live? 16:38:40 Strav: (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :package) 16:38:43 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.52.110] has joined #lisp 16:38:45 beach: I'm not so sure AI is dead. There are a lot of universities still doing AI. 16:38:53 name two! 16:38:53 sell scheme, lisp is beautifull and all, has nice libs, but is kinda bloated to the point every beginer must wonder: am I using the correct function for this and that. 16:38:57 (that was a joke) 16:39:14 jimi_hendrix: You should. The tarball on the website is almost 5 years old 16:39:25 nyef: AI is never dead 16:39:55 nyef: It's just always denied success, even when it does succeed 16:40:01 p_l: As dead as lisp, then? 16:40:08 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:40:13 nyef: less so 16:40:34 it's just that it hides under different names ;P 16:40:37 In disguise, perhaps? 16:40:52 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 16:40:55 "cognitive science", "spoken language systems", etc. 16:41:11 machine learning, search, etc 16:41:12 "machine learning" 16:41:19 AI, the term as sold in the 80s is not very appealing. Lisp still applies as a good prototyping language for the more noble term for ai: Cognitive science 16:41:43 "world domination", "skynet".... 16:42:07 pjb`: The thinking here is that it is probably better to convince some fraction of people that need a general-purpose language (and possibly to disuade some AI programmers), than the other way around, because of the numbers. 16:42:34 Strav: I disagree. What 80s did wrong was to overhype it 16:42:39 beach: unfortunately, I don't get the impression that's successfull, at least in France. 16:42:44 pjb`: But I haven't done the research to figure out whether this is true. 16:42:52 WOPR :-) 16:43:04 I know enterprises using lisp in the USA, in the UK, in Germany, in Spain. None in France. 16:43:09 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:43:31 pjb`: There are not tons of them, but there are a few around Bordeaux. 16:43:55 pjb`: As for Lisp in AI... Everything is in Java. If you're lucky, you get prolog. Thankfully Jess implements Lisp as its syntax 16:43:56 beach: Probably thanks to you! 16:44:13 pjb`: Yeah, essentially consisting of convinced former students. 16:44:13 p_l: overhype that gave rise to a less art-for-the-art approach. 16:44:21 brb 16:44:50 mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:02 Athas` [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 16:45:06 -!- Athas` [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:45:44 heh. The first paper we read in "Grand Challenges of AI" course was to inform us that AI *is* there. We simply 1) had wrong idea what the hell we were making 2) AGI is still far from now (but closer and closer) 16:47:12 I personally think that the way minion can be so convincing sometimes means that humans are not that intelligent most of the time, so we might be easier to emulate than previously thought. 16:47:42 :-) 16:47:46 The Eliza Principle. 16:47:56 You know, it might be interesting to have a bot that actually knows something about programming. 16:48:09 it's relatively easy to fool someone who's not paying attention into thinking something is intelligent 16:48:43 nyef: the #haskell people have such, thanks to powerful static type systems 16:48:45 even by accident (hence electronic voice phenomina, where the brain infers voices from random noise) 16:49:03 with internet trolls, you never know whether it's a troll or markov chain 16:49:03 I always wonder how they can render in movies people very intelligent, with mere actors and scenarists... 16:49:24 p_l: "On the internet, nobody knows you're a markov chain"? 16:50:08 *rsynnott* is still unsure about Xah Lee 16:50:18 nyef: Imagine we once were unsure for quite a long time about one... 16:50:28 (Which, unfortunately, leads to "does the name markov ring a bell?", which is a bit far afield.) 16:51:33 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:12 ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:56:41 saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 16:58:49 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:02:50 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 17:05:35 nyef pasted "tcr: This one's for you (bug 327223)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79985 17:06:08 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-165.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:07:54 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:08:27 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["ah-CHOO"] 17:09:06 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.144.188] has joined #lisp 17:09:10 Possibly not the right way to do things, but... 17:09:31 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 17:09:57 Doesn't seem to have broken the obvious case, at least. 17:11:14 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-164-161.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:13:25 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 17:15:30 s0ber [i=pie@118-168-239-81.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:02 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:18:36 danlei [n=user@pD954F21F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:44 theL00p [n=user@78.33.52.101] has joined #lisp 17:22:24 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl244.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 17:22:52 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.243.40] has quit [] 17:22:55 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:27:21 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:30:21 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:30:43 slashus2 [n=dex@74-141-105-89.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 17:32:15 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-180-144-124.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:16 Down from 214 to 154 unprocessed email messages; YAY! 17:32:45 You need a stronger spam filter ;-) 17:33:16 pjb: My colleagues would be pretty upset then. 17:33:27 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.52.110] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:33:45 pjb: will you be in Milan? 17:33:59 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.47.217] has joined #lisp 17:34:30 Unfortunately, I won't be able to be there :-( 17:34:39 Oh, that's too bad. 17:35:13 Next year should be better. 17:35:49 -!- schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["leaving"] 17:35:52 Is that Lisbon, or has that not been decided? 17:36:00 r1nu- [n=debian@ppp-94-67-190-236.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:36:35 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-235-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 17:37:27 Lispbon would be better 17:37:47 There is still time to rename a few cities. 17:38:00 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-3.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 17:39:10 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@206.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:40:03 I like Lisbon just the way it is, though. 17:40:20 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit ["snapshot reboot"] 17:41:20 ahaas [n=ahaas@75.141.137.21] has joined #lisp 17:41:41 minion: logs? 17:41:41 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 17:43:08 dbdkmezz [n=quassel@94-195-104-235.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:43:54 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-209-44.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:38 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 17:47:10 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-177-99-140.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:50:29 jmbr [n=jmbr@206.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:50:56 schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-067-234-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:30 tcr, delayed reaction, but whats the current slime version? 17:56:07 jimi_hendrix: You're supposed to check out from cvs 17:57:55 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:58:04 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 17:59:05 tcr: Did you see that paste (79985)? 18:00:57 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:01 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 18:01:15 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:02:18 -!- r1nu- [n=debian@ppp-94-67-190-236.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["Quit *.*"] 18:03:32 tcr annotated #79985 "What about this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79985#1 18:03:58 nyef: How does it handle that? 18:04:00 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 18:04:16 tcr: It's still a literal. 18:04:34 what about (load-time-value ...)? 18:04:53 Hrm. Not sure. 18:04:56 dankna: patch submitted :-) 18:06:21 rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-109.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:06:40 if the entity is called "source-path", what is better sub-source-path-p, or source-subpath-p? 18:07:38 nyef: i think we want to modify the defknown for format and use :destroyed-constant-args 18:08:22 pkhuong: That's beyond me, I'm afraid. This part of the compiler is very much new to me. 18:14:00 :destroyed-constant-args (lambda (args) (and (c-lv-p (first args)) (stringp (lv-value (first args))) '(0))) in the defknown 18:15:49 tcr: the above uses the existing machinery for SORT, NREVERSE etc. and will warn for read-only l-t-v. 18:19:42 chaitanya [n=chaitany@59.182.248.129] has joined #lisp 18:20:17 -!- schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-067-234-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:20:27 -!- mib_e34awj [i=95a97bbe@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-957ccff1452e9c2f] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 18:20:49 My google-fu fails me. Which was the nice short URLs service for Lisp? 18:21:24 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4775.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 18:21:49 ejs1 [n=eugen@99-87-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:12 so, i can't have fancy and fuzzy completion at the same time? 18:24:26 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 18:26:25 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 18:31:03 -!- shelducks [n=cant@80-41-252-138.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:31:09 ratner 18:31:24 rather contextual and fuzzy 18:31:39 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:33:04 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:30 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-3-75.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 18:34:48 shelducks [n=cant@80-41-252-138.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 18:34:50 -!- slashus2 [n=dex@74-141-105-89.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [] 18:37:49 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:38:34 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:39:17 loxs [n=loxs@87-126-114-180.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 18:39:17 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 18:40:34 pkhuong: Nice. 18:40:44 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-230-66.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 18:41:09 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-230-66.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 18:52:48 -!- dbdkmezz [n=quassel@94-195-104-235.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:53:11 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.47.217] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:53:15 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:02 projections [n=p@88.235.101.2] has joined #lisp 18:57:13 -!- projections [n=p@88.235.101.2] has quit [Client Quit] 18:59:31 chaitanya: l1sp.org 19:01:21 gigamonkey: Thanks! That is just what I was looking for. 19:02:07 gigamonkey: are you the same who has written that prac. common lisp? 19:02:23 Davse_Bamse: yes. 19:03:14 gigamonkey: i have just started on your book then :-) 19:03:26 Cool. Have fun! 19:03:31 thanks.. 19:03:39 chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-188-098-214-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:50 btw. do you receive bugs report on it? 19:04:05 I do. Usually with good grace, even. 19:04:56 pkhuong annotated #79985 "We already have code to handle that!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79985#2 19:05:07 great :-) cause i can not get the unit testing thing to work. I guess it is the cominbe-results. It says EVAL: variable RESULT has no value 19:05:27 I use clisp 2.44.1 19:05:37 shal i send an email with a better output? 19:05:43 I think that may be due to CLISP having it's own GENSYM. 19:05:51 ahh ok 19:06:15 so I should use the one defined in chaper 8ish? 19:06:15 The fix, if that is it, unfortunately, involves package foo that isn't explained until later. 19:06:26 Ah, hang on, that's probably not it. 19:06:36 Email me the actual output, etc. 19:06:51 ok i will do that 19:06:51 thanks :-) 19:06:52 Or paste it. 19:06:59 lisppaste: url? 19:07:00 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 19:07:05 Actually, email it. That way I have a record. 19:07:30 sugarshark [n=ole@p4FDA9F7D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:07:46 i will do that right away 19:08:27 -!- projections_ [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has left #lisp 19:10:11 projections_ [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has joined #lisp 19:10:21 -!- nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:11:10 gigamonkey: sent :-) 19:11:42 got it. 19:12:42 Ah, it is the WITH-GENSYMS thing I think. 19:12:45 -!- loxs [n=loxs@87-126-114-180.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:13:21 You do need the WITH-GENSYMS defined in Chapter 8. 19:13:21 pkhuong annotated #79985 "simpler" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79985#3 19:13:36 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-68-203.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["« La POO c'est bien beau, mais en C au moins on va droit au but. »"] 19:13:44 And you'll also probably want to clean out your CL-USER package of the CLISP specific packages. 19:14:03 drewc [n=user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:40 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 19:15:33 Something like this should do the trick: (unuse-package (remove-if-not #'(lambda (x) (eql x (find-package :cl))) (package-use-list :cl-user)) :cl-user) 19:15:50 uninverted [n=njs@ip24-252-241-178.cl.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:52 (shadow 'with-gensyms) ? 19:16:05 How do you concatenate strings in common lisp? 19:16:13 clhs concatenate 19:16:14 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_concat.htm 19:16:57 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-158-152.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:17:00 stassats`: That too. Or do everything in a proper package. 19:17:15 Lispbox cleans up CL-USER but people using CLISP directly run into this problem. 19:17:19 kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:17:25 that's before you explained package concepts, right? 19:17:43 uninverted: What stassats` said, except when you need it to be fast 19:17:58 Thanks, concatenate's exactly what I need. 19:18:13 tcr: I don't :P 19:18:26 why concatenate can't be fast? 19:18:29 stassats`: right. 19:20:40 *stassats`* is struggling with emacs and emacs lisp, sigh 19:21:21 gigamonkey: thanks a lot :-) 19:21:34 No problem. 19:23:56 stassats`: What's your problem? 19:24:25 i found it, some function changed point under my feet 19:25:09 nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:03 now M-./M-, is more reliable 19:27:45 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-212-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:02 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.144.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:29:02 -!- semyon421 [n=semyon@217.67.122.44] has quit ["leaving"] 19:30:01 -!- drewc [n=user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:31:15 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-3-75.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit ["..."] 19:32:07 *stassats`* thinks what would be swank for elisp 19:32:17 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit ["Be back later"] 19:32:33 -!- chaitanya [n=chaitany@59.182.248.129] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:32:41 M-x server-start + emacsclient 19:33:12 drewc [n=user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:20 well, i mean not communication, but rather for use with slime 19:33:39 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:07 -!- sellout is now known as Guest40487 19:34:32 stassats`: you could try to write a swank-backend for emacs-cl. 19:36:14 -!- Guest40487 [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:36:18 sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:21 -!- drewc [n=user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:38:58 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-229-91-142.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:39:32 drewc [n=user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:01 tombom [i=tombom@86.9.236.79] has joined #lisp 19:41:41 ok, not today, time for some sleep 19:42:42 -!- drewc [n=user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Success] 19:43:21 jfactor [n=jfactor@student164-35.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 19:44:01 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:44:48 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 19:45:35 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit ["package upgrades, bbl"] 19:45:45 benny99 [n=benny@p5486B6DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:53 drewc [n=user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:13 kotarak [n=mb@C58df.c.strato-dslnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:48:14 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-212-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:48:56 -!- drewc [n=user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:49:58 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:41 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 19:52:41 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-39-6-238.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:02 Did DEFMACRO come from MacLisp or did it predate the MacLisp/Interlisp split? 19:53:36 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:43 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:54:31 "The simple but powerful macro facility on which DEFMACRO is based was introduced in MacLisp in the mid-1960s." from evolution of lisp 19:55:27 -!- jao [n=jao@7.Red-83-38-58.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:55:39 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:56:26 stassats`: thanks. Is that from Pitman's thing? 19:57:06 Gabriel, Steels 19:57:14 Ah, that was my next guess. 19:57:15 http://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/HOPL2-Uncut.pdf 19:58:01 minion: logs 19:58:01 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 19:59:57 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 20:00:29 I'm working on the L Peter Deutsch chapter of Coders at Work and despite being an old-school Lisper he seems not entirely aware of The Macro Way. 20:00:45 I'm wondering if it's because he was mostly a Interlisp guy. 20:03:00 didn't interlisp have macros ? 20:03:52 fe[nl]ix: I'm sure it had something. But it seems like there was a lot of experimentation. Presumably not all the experiments turned out well. 20:04:07 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:11 -!- kotarak [n=mb@C58df.c.strato-dslnet.de] has quit [] 20:05:15 One of Pitman's papers has a discussion of many of the variants that were out there at one time. 20:07:19 zepard [n=zepard@unaffiliated/zepard] has joined #lisp 20:07:57 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-130-102.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:08:20 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:09:08 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:11:49 -!- uninverted [n=njs@ip24-252-241-178.cl.ri.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:12:18 is there a way to make format put a leading 0 with ~F (or is there something that will do that for me? 20:12:48 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@99-87-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:13:15 clhs ~F 20:13:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cca.htm 20:13:52 nyef: so it boils down to: is there an alternative? 20:14:11 (format t "0~f" 5) ? 20:14:19 doesn't work for negative numbers 20:15:07 (format t "0~f" (abs -5)) 20:15:08 m4dnificent: (format t "~/SPECIAL-FORMATS:SPECIAL-FLOAT-FORMAT/" -5) 20:15:32 (mapcar (lambda (num) (format t "~:[+~;-~]0~f~%" (minusp num) (abs num))) '(0 -1 +1)) 20:15:47 gigamonk`: hmm, don't know that one :) 20:17:01 gigamonk`: where can you get special-formats? 20:17:16 write it 20:17:22 and pjb that could work too... 20:17:36 but the format string is really crude already 20:17:39 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-84-17.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:17:45 So, wait, you want a leading zero even if there are digits before the point? 20:17:46 stassats: I really don't have time for it right now :( 20:18:11 it's trivial 20:18:51 nyef: suddenly, I find it strange that sbcl hasn't printed them (/me checks again) 20:22:05 the problem is ruby, which parses the data erronorously. 20:22:09 sorry, thanks for the help 20:26:24 Of course, we already knew that ruby was part of the problem. 20:26:37 We did? 20:26:58 -!- tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.145] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:26:59 If it's not part of the solution (and it isn't) then it's part of the problem. 20:27:26 drewc` [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 20:27:55 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:28:13 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 20:30:53 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a641af@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d7a05d8071e4d8db] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 20:31:07 -!- macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Cet ordinateur s'est endormi (zzz)"] 20:31:34 ahaas_ [n=ahaas@neptune.pettomato.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:33 -!- sugarshark [n=ole@p4FDA9F7D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:32:35 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@75.141.137.21] has quit ["leaving"] 20:32:48 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:33:26 -!- ahaas_ is now known as ahaas 20:33:42 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 20:35:57 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:40:29 jao [n=jao@142.Red-79-156-143.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:01 -!- kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 20:44:50 grizzlor [n=Tyler@72.92.236.204] has joined #lisp 20:45:34 -!- zepard [n=zepard@unaffiliated/zepard] has left #lisp 20:50:44 pem_ [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 20:50:44 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:54:55 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:56:33 gigamonkey pasted "What's wrong with us" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79994 20:58:08 gigamonkey: Many people find it that even if you don't have any external weirdness, your status among normals would be compromised should you not show anything 20:58:26 so it's kind of self-fulfifilling prophecy 20:58:52 p_l: you know the story of beards at IBM? 20:59:09 gigamonk`, http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz/ (need Flash for this) :} 20:59:20 gigamonk`: so, does he say what's wrong? 20:59:30 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit ["leaving"] 20:59:41 -!- mjf [n=mjf@213.220.192.98] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 21:00:06 pjb: well, it's in the context of how dealing with software requires abilities and intuitions that are not at all like the ones people have evolved to deal with the physical world. 21:00:28 lnostdal: is that the serial killer vs language designer quiz? I took that once; I think I got them all right. 21:00:36 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:44 Ah, not some geeky characteristic. 21:00:46 yes, gigamonk` .. i did not get them all right 21:00:49 you just knew all serial killers? 21:00:49 *gigamonk`* knows a bit too much about obscure programming languages. 21:00:57 haha, stassats 21:01:05 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4775.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:01:26 gigamonk`: hah, I remember that one. I recognized mccarthy immediately 21:01:30 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 21:01:43 # Kurt Vonnegut's recurring character Kilgore Trout is an ugly, unsuccessful science-fiction author with bad hygiene, who takes odd jobs to supplement his usual income from the porn magazines who buy his stuff for filler. And he's frequently more clued-in to what's going on around him than about half of his fellow characters. (Timequake ends with him saving the world by thinking of exactly the right thing to say at the right time. 21:01:49 * Contrast Breakfast of Champions, wher he's basically a Cosmic Plaything. # Kurt Vonnegut's recurring character Kilgore Trout is an ugly, unsuccessful science-fiction author with bad hygiene, who takes odd jobs to supplement his usual income from the porn magazines who buy his stuff for filler. And he's frequently more clued-in to what's going on around him than about half of his fellow characters. (Timequake ends with him saving 21:01:56 DAMN! 21:02:07 *p_l* messed up space and middle mouse button 21:02:35 thinkpad? 21:02:45 thinkpad 21:03:08 if you're going to screw up, at least you did it on the finest laptop ever built. 21:03:39 heh :/ 21:04:16 gigamonkey: Haven't heard the story of beards @ IBM yet, any link? 21:05:36 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-80-171.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:06:46 hefner: The nice thing about Thinkpads, even low-range R61i like mine, is that I can think of using them as projectiles and have the laptop survive in usable state... 21:07:15 p_l: basically if you wore a beard at IBM that was so unusual that everyone assumed anyone who wore a beard must be a real genius. Otherwise how could they get away with wearing a beard at IBM. 21:07:35 gigamonk`: ... Refuge in Audacity? 21:08:27 *stassats* screwed up keyboard on his finest laptop ever built 21:09:11 p_l: maybe 21:09:43 stassats: easily replaced! 21:10:23 yeah, but buying small 10$ keyboard was cheaper 21:10:25 gigamonk`: I wonder if it still works. I'd take any IT job right now :) 21:10:34 i don't use it outside anyway 21:10:46 bah. that's the mentality of a dell user. 21:10:55 Not really relevant but amusing: http://www.codethinked.com/post/2007/12/The-Programmer-Dress-Code.aspx 21:11:17 i'm going to replace it eventually, once i'd have spare money 21:11:31 -!- jao [n=jao@142.Red-79-156-143.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:11:51 p_l: The problem is if you're not already in position, the beard then becomes indicative of your basic unemployability. ;-) 21:12:13 I was thinking of getting a symbolics keyboard and refitting it with USB interface, but I'm not sure if I want to relearn my typing method... 21:13:11 gigamonk`: Oh, that's not a problem... It takes The beard and the hear is easy to explain: avoid shaving everyday, so you spare 1/4 hour for programming, irc or usenet. 21:16:09 Same with the hear and 1/2 hour monthly. 21:16:28 or, in my instance, "crap! I'm late, not time to shave!" :D 21:17:21 p_l: No, I mean, the way the theory goes is X has a job. X has a beard. => X must be good because who'd hire a guy with a beard? 21:17:25 mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6f6e1cc17795213e] has joined #lisp 21:18:10 X needs a job and X has a beard => No wonder. X is a bearded-freak. 21:18:24 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:18:52 along those same lines, I can't fathom why anyone would wear a shirt that needs buttons, anything that needs to be dry-cleaned after a single wear, or, god forbid, a tie. 21:19:21 *nyef* started wearing ties on a regular basis a few months ago. 21:19:34 for someones wedding, clearly 21:19:43 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:19:48 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:20:23 well, there's another nuisance. 21:20:36 And as for shirts that need cufflinks, they make the statement "I don't need to do real work". 21:20:38 *p_l* can't knot a tie, although he doesn't have anything against wearing suit etc. As long as it's *good* suit (i.e. comfortable) 21:21:24 p_l: www.tie-a-tie.net might help with that. 21:21:45 -!- sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:21:57 nyef: Mmmm. Can't you program with cuff links on? 21:22:08 *stassats* learned how to tie a tie, wore it once and forgot 21:22:20 gigamonk`: Possibly. But you can't really rest your arms on a desk, as the cufflinks get in the way. 21:22:23 seems like a pointless way to make getting dressed take twenty or thirty minutes longer than it ought to. if I had to wear a suit to work, I'd expect my employer to compensate me. 21:22:56 nyef: You shouldn't be resting your arms--you should be typing! 21:23:25 Clearly, then the cufflinks are for salespeople. 21:24:08 hefner: getting into my suit takes me approximately the same time as into normal clothes on a colder day, so it's not that much of a problem 21:24:47 but I'm an uniform maniac (even more with "awesome yet still practical, pity not real" ones) :) 21:25:00 I don't buy it. You have to tuck things in, and fiddle with them. Then take extra care not to destroy them during the entire day, and get them cleaned. Inefficient. 21:25:35 I have to agree about cleaning 21:25:58 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 21:26:19 plus I've never understood how people can where white shirts. I'd have to be one or two new ones per week to keep up with attrition 21:26:24 gigamonk`, thanks for PCL :) 21:26:28 "wear", "buy" 21:27:37 hefner: It's a two-part thing. First is not spilling anything on them. Second is wearing an undershirt, which takes most of the damage from being the innermost layer. 21:28:40 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.74.147] has joined #lisp 21:28:40 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-31-181.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:29:03 also, suit doesn't stand off that much while it allows you to hide quite a lot of interesting stuff inside... 21:29:23 an axe? 21:29:44 *hefner* never trusted people who were too well dressed anyway 21:29:59 A memory-erasure gadget? 21:30:05 heh 21:30:07 i think a coat would be better 21:30:34 I was thinking more like daggers, PDW, wearable computer with hi-quality antenna system meshed into fabric, bulletproof stuff etc... 21:30:40 *rsynnott* never quite understood the whole suit thing 21:30:49 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-63-209.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:30:52 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Client Quit] 21:30:54 fortunately, basically no software companies require them these days 21:31:12 *p_l* is planning on buying a labcoat 21:31:28 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 21:32:03 I've been thinking about buying a suit, but am not yet near the point of actually doing anything about it. 21:32:41 *hefner* would prefer jeans, jacket, and an AR-15 21:33:06 Well, I have three, two of them "hand me downs" and one that I got for 100day party in High School 21:33:36 I think the last time I wore anything other than jeans and tshirt was for university graduation a couple of years ago... 21:34:34 -!- dfd- [n=doorby@151.23.35.107] has quit ["'night"] 21:37:15 *stassats* imagines a stereotypical lisper: jeans, t-shirt, bird 21:37:27 beard 21:37:50 and a parrot on the shoulder 21:37:52 birds are for pirates 21:38:10 stassats: no need to imagine, watch the pictures of the last ILC. 21:39:11 in that case, don't forgot the nancy boy silver laptop 21:39:21 ? 21:40:12 or white for the lispers on a budget, presumably 21:41:42 I'd rather think it would be black or gray for people on budget... white usually would indicate macbook, which isn't something I'd buy on a budget 21:42:01 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:42:07 lispers are not known for their practicality 21:42:13 p_l: Yes, white is for "on a budget" Apple customers... 21:42:20 excluding gigamonkey, of course 21:45:33 pjb: ... "on a budget" and "apple customer" => Does not compute 21:45:47 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:46:28 p_l: A high end Mac Pro configuration costs more than 35,000 . I can't afford that. On my budget, I could afford only a MacMini at less than 700 . 21:46:52 But when I'll win the loto, I'll buy the high end configuration. 21:47:14 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.47.217] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:47:54 For a Hi-End Mac Pro configuration, I can buy a 72-core, 48G RAM machine that consumes 300W of power... 21:48:04 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.103.132] has joined #lisp 21:48:08 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 21:48:24 mips? 21:48:31 so, how many cores does a high end mac pro get you? 21:48:35 8. 21:49:19 But you get a nice keyboard, nice screens, a nice OS, a nice RAID, etc. 21:49:22 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:34 stassats: MIPS64, supercomputing model, not embedded :) 21:50:02 i remember, sicortex or something 21:50:07 memory can be expanded to 96G 21:50:11 Nice OS? I thought you got OSX? 21:50:28 Yeah! Nice, isn't it! :-) 21:50:37 Not really, no. :-P 21:51:15 nyef: "nice" in the sense of "cute&shiny" 21:51:18 *p_l* looks sinisterly at starting Mac vs. Rest of the World flame grinning... "Just As Planned" :P 21:51:18 *_3b* wonders how many cores you would get for that price on a nvidia tesla system :) 21:51:34 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@nttkyo454079.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:52:03 ("... the only tesla I want is a car.") 21:52:08 for the cost of p_l's 72-core, 48G RAM machine, I can buy dozens of stripped down thinkpad husks, and hurl them into the street at my enemies 21:52:27 hefner: Now that's a nice idea 21:52:43 hefner: if you're doing to do that, get the old luggable computers. 21:53:03 hefner: If you're going to do that, get bricks. 21:53:12 I think, however, that for that price I could get a rifle and lots of ammo :P 21:53:23 nyef: bricks are not a designated computing device!!!!! 21:53:30 :P 21:53:32 Adamant: MacMini. 21:53:49 pjb: that only works if you're a baseball pitcher 21:53:56 gotta have that velocity 21:54:05 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-130-102.netcologne.de] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 21:55:46 p_l: it just feels wrong for MIPS to have that much power post-SGI 21:55:58 if Apple didn't swallow PA Semi.... 21:56:11 or at least span off the PPC's.... 21:56:25 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:56:40 (all they seem to be using are the ARM assets) 21:58:11 punflinger [n=punfling@97.65.1.175] has joined #lisp 21:58:17 hello all 21:58:34 p_l: does Poland make private arms ownership easy and legal, or is it like Western Europe where it's regulated to hell and back in most countries 21:58:37 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-158-152.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:58:41 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:58:51 i have a quick question , if anyone cares to answer it.. 21:59:13 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-109.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:59:40 you'd better ask your question 21:59:54 alright, life, good 21:59:56 punflinger: ok, we're ready to shoot down your quick question. 22:00:11 i'm using GNU common lisp on XP 22:00:12 BANG! 22:00:18 Did I got it? 22:00:41 new to lisp, have some basic experience in a variety of other langs 22:00:43 *_3b* wonders if 'GNU common lisp' is gcl or clisp 22:00:53 punflinger: there's two GNU Common Lisp imlpementations. Which one do you use? 22:01:01 you're pulling a bit ot the left, pjb 22:01:02 punflinger: so still no question? 22:01:03 GCL 22:01:12 well 22:01:14 more of a statement 22:01:17 when i type in numbers 22:01:32 ..you see dead people? 22:01:34 no parentheses or anything 22:01:39 specifically, floats 22:02:09 it does an odd rounding bit where it rounds simple numbers 22:02:10 Perhaps we should answer him like he asks... 22:02:18 Jacob_H_ [n=jacob@92.6.221.9] has joined #lisp 22:02:19 such as 3.42 22:02:31 to 3.419999999999999 22:02:37 that's a suspense question 22:02:45 (not completely sure as to the number of 9s) 22:02:52 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@nttkyo454079.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:02:55 so i'm wondering if this is normal 22:02:59 punflinger: well, it's ok 22:03:04 or if I'm a stupid sod 22:03:14 it's not denormal (har!) 22:03:19 :-) 22:03:23 or maybe a little bit of "column a" a little bit of "column B" 22:03:46 <_3b> would you prefer it try to trick you into thinking floats can accurately represent numbers they can't? 22:03:58 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:04:02 I don't mind it 22:04:17 but I know many interfaces will automatically do that 22:04:25 so I wanted to know if I had buggered up the install 22:04:27 read "what every computer scientist should know about floating point" 22:04:30 ARe you saying that you type in 3.42 and the compiler thinks that it's 3.419999999? 22:04:59 Or are you saying that there are rounding errors when the computer does math? 22:05:29 I'm saying that when i input "3.42" it outputs "3.419999999999999" 22:05:32 punflinger: perhaps you could try: clisp -ansi ; I use this option and when I type 3.42, I get 3.42 ; but I'm on linux, so perhaps the difference comes from the OS. 22:05:47 alec [n=alec@pool-96-237-2-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:49 That seems really odd. 22:05:56 *_3b* is saying that floating point is generally done with binary, which tends to not match decimal exactly 22:06:24 Ah that's right. 22:06:32 _3b: I don't know a whole lot about floating point, but i know it is rounding things, so i figuried it was something like that 22:06:40 minion tell punflinger about floating-point 22:06:47 minion: tell punflinger about floating-point 22:06:47 punflinger: please look at floating-point: What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic http://docs-pdf.sun.com/800-7895/800-7895.pdf http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=103163 http://focus.hut.fi/docs/WorkShop/common/ug/goldberg1.doc.html 22:06:50 pjb: it's gcl 22:06:55 Ah. 22:07:04 <_3b> also, don't use gcl :p 22:07:10 well, anyway, getting rid of gcl won't hurt 22:07:16 It's not quite 'rounding.' 22:07:16 <_3b> (unless you have a specific reason to) 22:07:33 Well, on MS-Windows it might be useful. But I'd rather try ecl first. 22:07:47 i shan't expend your time explaining floating point to me 22:07:58 ericklc [n=ikki@189.228.118.193] has joined #lisp 22:08:05 so that's the suggestion, clisp and/or ecl? 22:08:15 thanks for the link, pjb 22:08:15 punflinger: depends. Both. 22:08:48 punflinger: folks around here also like SBCL 22:08:52 punflinger: I'd use clisp to develop, and if you need to compile to native code, ecl is good. Or if you need to embed it into C or other language an application, then ecl is indicated. 22:09:06 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@93.95.184.229] has quit ["time to sleep"] 22:09:14 Yes, we also need beta testeer of SBCL on MS-Windows. 22:09:44 Which is more stable/usable/full of win on Windows these days, SBCL or CCL? 22:09:48 My intention is to understand lisp, first and foremost, i'm taking my summer break and trying to grok lisp 22:10:05 punflinger: then I'd use clisp. 22:10:14 Careful punflinger. I once took a year off trying to grok Lisp and ended up writing a book about it. 22:10:23 <_3b> gigamonk`: ccl at least seems to have a greater rate of change, not sure if the paths have crossed yet or not 22:10:31 punflinger: the advantage of Common Lisp is that it has a standard, and you can write code that runs on all the implementations. 22:10:31 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.103.132] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:10:48 that's what I was reading 22:10:50 punflinger: so you can learn with one implementation, develop with another, and compile and deploy on another. 22:11:05 Adamant: You need a licence for firearms in poland 22:11:15 punflinger: in short: don't ask what implementation, use them all! They all have their strong points. 22:11:16 p_l: ah 22:11:33 pjb: thankee, sai 22:12:00 gigamonk`: any book if which I may have heard mention? 22:12:16 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-84-17.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:12:22 minion: tell punflinger about pcl 22:12:23 punflinger: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 22:12:38 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:13:19 just ordered that, actually 22:13:41 Good! 22:13:55 yesterday 22:13:59 'tis a small world 22:14:56 gigamonk`s small-world domination plan proceeds on schedule 22:15:28 Soon I'll be moving on to the next small world!!! 22:15:55 Jacobh_H [n=jacob@92.2.126.149] has joined #lisp 22:16:08 don't do it, gigamonk` - there's so much left to live for. 22:16:34 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-84-17.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 22:16:49 -!- Jacobh_H is now known as Jacob_H 22:16:54 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-3.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:17:51 gigamonk` has been subliminally inducing Lispers everywhere to implement a distributed AI running across the world's images. Soon it will be activated, thus proving once and for all that Lisp is an AI programming language. 22:19:52 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:20:13 -!- Jacob_H_ [n=jacob@92.6.221.9] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:20:35 -!- chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-188-098-214-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:20:58 Didn't we have the skynet joke already today? 22:21:20 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:21:39 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.74.147] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:47 *p_l* simply plans to merge his mind with AI 22:21:48 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.126.149] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:21:53 the only AI I've done lately plays Super Mario Bros. Hope that doesn't delay the plan. 22:22:09 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-120.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 22:23:07 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:23:17 I don't know my scrollback is ~550 lines 22:23:36 anyway the genius of the plan is that you don't *know* you're implementing it 22:24:52 I think we should all stop fooling ourselves 22:25:06 and realize that it's really the AI that's implementing us 22:25:31 we are the billion monkeys? 22:25:57 *punflinger* nods grimly 22:26:12 is this 'we're all a simulation' cosmology? 22:27:23 rsynnott: no, just the "we're all pawns being moved by an unseen hand" cosmology 22:27:55 I thought the unseen hand was economics, not cosmology? 22:28:19 the economics version is verging on being BOTH 22:28:36 (at least the version preferred b fundamentalist libertarians) 22:28:40 is there truly a difference? 22:28:54 benny` [n=benny@i577A0F67.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:29:35 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-67-98.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 22:30:59 -!- mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6f6e1cc17795213e] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 22:32:02 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:33:17 slashus2 [n=dex@74-141-102-143.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 22:34:25 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:34:51 slashus2_ [n=dex@74-141-105-89.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 22:35:26 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:35:45 -!- rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:35:46 punflinger: erm, yes :) 22:35:49 rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:36 specifically pertaining to the unseen hand, i mean 22:36:46 -!- benny99 [n=benny@p5486B6DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:37:39 because really, if you accept it as an economic truth, it should then be a large part of one's view of the forces at work in the world around oneself, in a general sense 22:37:45 actual economists who subscribe to the idea typically use it as a metaphor for a naturally balancing system 22:38:05 politicians who talk about it often seem to think that it is literal magic 22:38:25 (you could compare strong/weak anthropic principle) 22:38:50 this is true 22:39:27 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:40:02 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 22:42:35 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0D15.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:46:26 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-63-209.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:46:46 slashus2__ [n=dex@74-141-105-89.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 22:46:53 theres too much to learn 22:47:26 there is more to unlearn 22:47:53 stassats: Ill drink to that 22:48:13 haha 22:49:10 kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:49:30 you already knew maths before starting lisp 22:49:49 probably i mean 22:50:31 I was diverted from studying math by my math teachers 22:50:37 in High School 22:50:59 it was an odd situation, because I was the best performer in the math competition team 22:51:08 i never liked it 22:51:15 but never managed higher than a C- in a math class 22:51:23 which dissuaded me from doing math 22:51:34 i loved it 22:51:53 i now feeling like i have to and i have to love it to complete the thing im trying to do 22:52:19 -!- benny` is now known as benny 22:52:20 the more I blunder around in math, the more i find things I love 22:52:31 dwave [n=ask@062016209095.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 22:52:38 Conditional probability is fun-looking. 22:53:23 -!- slashus2 [n=dex@74-141-102-143.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:53:29 -!- slashus2__ is now known as slashus2 22:53:39 im going to ask a friend to help me out in math and then in lisp 22:53:41 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:01 who the hell is p_l 22:59:14 somebody in this channel :) 22:59:24 oh, i'm dumb 22:59:28 i had my window scrolled up 22:59:39 :) 22:59:41 and it looked like he has said that bit about needing a license in poland 22:59:43 out of the blue 22:59:48 *facepalm* 22:59:59 ... I got the urge to scream "WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM!?", but not many would approve of this trope... 23:00:06 -!- slashus2_ [n=dex@74-141-105-89.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:00:12 *punflinger* realizes 23:00:19 ramus`_ [n=ramus@adsl-69-209-215-193.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:19 license for what in poland? 23:00:21 i've been scrolling up to look at the link for the pdf about floats 23:00:30 and every time i went up 23:00:33 there's an archive somewhere 23:00:33 it must have shown that line 23:00:40 rsynnott: Firelegs, probably. 23:00:52 Or maybe some other extremity. 23:00:54 rsynnott: it was question about guns 23:00:55 p_l: so I thought that you kept on saying it 23:01:06 p_l: i beg your apologies 23:01:08 ah 23:01:25 no problem ;-) 23:01:48 situation here is that (a) you need a license, and (b) you are not allowed to HAVE a license :) 23:02:04 hahaha. where is here, pray tell? 23:02:31 Ireland, judging by hostname. 23:03:44 Ireland, yep 23:05:17 ah 23:05:17 -!- ramus`_ [n=ramus@adsl-69-209-215-193.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:07:33 until a couple of yyears ago it was a rather simpler matter of asking the local police nicely 23:07:43 but all of those licenses were cancelled 23:09:24 that's hardly shocking; you lot are actually crazy enough to use them 23:09:45 hefner: nah, they were never common here 23:09:51 police don't have them, for instance 23:10:03 ramus`_ [n=ramus@adsl-69-209-223-0.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:08 (the northern ireland terrorists did, but they were largely supplied through the US) 23:10:20 you're welcome! 23:10:43 *rsynnott* grumbles 23:12:05 (The 'Irish Americans' historically had a rather slanted view of the situation in Ireland, so gave lots of money to organisations whose apparent primary purpose was to blow up children, for fun) 23:12:20 this came to a halt after sept 11 when funding overseas terrorist groups became properly illegal in the US 23:12:55 -!- dwave [n=ask@062016209095.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 23:13:32 except by the CIA, of course. 23:13:39 hey! 23:13:46 they aren't terrorist organizations! 23:13:53 they're freedom fighters! 23:13:57 erm 23:13:59 for now 23:13:59 *nyef* wasn't going to say that. 23:14:02 at least 23:14:12 hefner: well, yes, but fortunately they were never very interested in our terrorists one way or the other 23:14:52 punflinger: no. They are not. Their stated purpose is (or was) to make Northern Ireland a part of Ireland. The population of Northern Ireland does not wish to be part of Ireland 23:15:09 their practical purpose, like most such people, was to make themselves lots of money 23:15:15 oh no 23:15:25 (these days they've msotly converted to organised crime) 23:15:31 rsynnott: i was referring to the groups funded by the CIA 23:15:42 apologies, that was an unclear quip 23:15:54 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-69-209-223-131.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:16:01 -!- ramus`_ is now known as ramus` 23:16:02 punflinger: ah, right :) 23:16:21 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-179-235.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:30 i should have prefixed with "hefner:" 23:17:03 wait, hefner is a terrorst/freedom fighter? 23:17:11 "Freedom fighter, n.: One who fights freedom." 23:17:18 i knew, i knew! 23:17:48 great, now I'm big trouble. 23:19:19 Maybe you just need to concentrat on harming the software industry, one day at a time? 23:19:23 though wasn't CIA terror funding mostly a cold war proxy war thing? 23:19:29 they're not still doing it, are they? 23:19:42 rsynnott: the main bulk of it seems to have been 23:19:47 nyef: I don't just want to harm it, I want to chain it up in my basement 23:20:06 there's been talk of the possibility of their funding insurgents in central america to get at oil there 23:20:17 hefner: Gimp is over there ---> 23:20:40 but i'm not sure how much of that is due to garden variety American Paranoia 23:21:38 *danlei* just found lispdoc.com 23:22:04 oh, yes, that's quite handy 23:22:18 rsynnott, there is an interesting book called the shock doctrine... that might give you some answers as well as more questions :-) 23:22:59 (though a version which also pulled docs from libraries on cliki and indexed them would be VERY cool) 23:23:55 oh, dear, that looks rather disturbing 23:24:10 -!- ericklc is now known as ikki 23:24:13 (I was aware of it in the context of converting Warsaw Pact economies, but not otherwise) 23:24:58 *rsynnott* understands that it has not in most cases worked properly 23:25:26 I don't know if there is a case in which it has worked properly? 23:26:20 some of the western Warsaw Pact states seem to have done okay 23:26:30 but I'm not sure how much of a contribution it was 23:27:10 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 23:27:11 *sohail* does not know 23:27:23 it's an interesting book in any case 23:27:33 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:27:38 though it makes you look at current events a bit differently :-) 23:27:41 -!- kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 23:27:57 from reading a summary it seems over-the-top 23:28:15 (though I'm against the super-free-market-at-all-costs thing myself) 23:28:23 the bit about thatcher, in particular 23:29:08 well, I'll read it again if you read it :-) 23:29:16 I read it a while back and don't recall everything that was discussed 23:29:17 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087D838.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:32:47 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 23:33:57 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-234-19.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 23:34:43 rullie_ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:34:50 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:36:23 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087D838.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:39 rsynnott: I also recommend The Shock Doctrine. (The book, not the doctrine) 23:36:40 brandelune [n=suzume@pl244.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:41:10 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.188.253] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:45:15 in Latin America, the US is funding the Columbians and using them as a proxy, the Venezuleans were funding FARC in Columbia until they got caught. 23:45:23 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB!"] 23:45:46 right now it looks like the US/Venezulea tension is dying somewhat due to Obama's election 23:45:49 oh, dear, yes, forgot about that; just like old times, really 23:45:50 who knows though 23:46:25 the best thing to do to Venezuela's government is to leave it alone and let it implode. 23:46:56 by south american standards it doesn't actually seem much worse than the average 23:47:13 rsynnott: same shit, new shaver 23:47:23 left-wing caudillo instead of a right-wing one 23:47:45 the issue of whether the dictator is a fake socialist or a fake democrat seems largely immaterial 23:47:45 Chavez has managed to crater the economy in every sector but oil 23:48:11 and now oil is down, and unless it goes back to $100+/barrel soon enough 23:48:15 he has problems. 23:48:21 Man hopefully any replacement government makes more of a public commitment to Lisp in public administration! 23:48:55 like Hungary? 23:48:56 :) 23:49:16 Adamant: it is highly likely to 23:49:19 the Free Software bill in Perú was pretty exciting a few years ago 23:49:35 S11001001: some Venezulean CS types were pushing Linux as a solution to their IT problems at the oil fields they took over from the multinational oil companies 23:49:40 it was in Free Software Mag 23:49:45 (especially as Russia is muttering about restricting supply again) 23:50:00 yeah, but I mean Lisp specifically 23:50:11 FS-pushing bills are all over the place now 23:50:11 S11001001: that's the closest I've seen 23:50:25 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:50:38 like, "Clozure as a solution to their IT problems at the oil fields" 23:50:40 *rsynnott* is somewhat reminded of the North Korean obsession in the 80s with having the latest technology 23:51:19 (they built a factory to make fiber optic cable, for instance; of course they had no use for the stuff and didn't have the resources to keep the factory going anyway) 23:51:19 rsynnott: I tend to think that can only happen if there is a sustained recovery 23:51:35 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 23:52:34 rsynnott: their power grid still runs on ICL1900 23:53:27 also, something to factor in - the oil market was partially distorted by large institutional investors parking huge amounts of money in oil as a tangible asset that was seen as a safe haven. so, the $150/barrel oil prices may not be realistic, although oil prices will definitely go up significantly during a sustained recovery. 23:53:55 previously it was rare for investors of that size to do major commodity plays. 23:54:30 fortunately, the recession doesn't seem (yet) to have killed major power infrastructure projects, so perhaps we can ease ourselves off oil to an extent 23:54:48 green power is one of the things I agree with Obama on. 23:55:07 -!- slashus2 [n=dex@74-141-105-89.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:55:36 yay, green power! Let's go nuclear! 23:55:44 *rsynnott* is extremely sceptical of the whole wind/waves business 23:56:10 but there is now significant nuclear capacity expansion starting or about to start in many countries 23:56:58 What are the best OPTIMIZE values if I'm working on nuclear power control systems? 23:57:14 you would probably not be doing it in lisp :) 23:57:15 S11001001: depends what country the reactor is in 23:57:24 rsynnott: why not? 23:57:50 I mean, I would assume (safety 3) 23:58:14 heheh 23:58:18 But real-time response is important, so you don't want too much latency introduced by compiler safety constructs 23:58:56 clearly, sbcl will produce a style warning about running on nuclear power plant 23:59:16 the Java license forbids it, of course 23:59:16 That's okay, we'll just implement on Clozure/x86-32 23:59:44 experimentalnot obsolete 23:59:44 (there was a mention of lisp software being used for some purpose in French nuclearl plants here a while back)