00:00:09 stassats`: I have 1.3-r11936 (LinuxX8632) version, and in slime it doesn't work 00:01:30 checked on 32 bits, works too 00:02:48 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.123] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:02:54 stassats`: then maybe I have to update from r11936 to r11938 00:03:40 legumbre [n=user@r190-133-157-112.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:05:00 vixey, sayoonara didn't work as a function or variable... 00:05:25 you type ",sayoonara" 00:05:44 or simply ",s" 00:05:51 Oh, a comma 00:06:08 clisp-mingw-w32 appears to run. only 3.2mb 00:06:28 divia_ [n=divia@98.210.196.101] has joined #lisp 00:07:40 stassats`: looks like I was confused, in slime kill thread works, it freezes after ABORT-BREAK restart, titled "Reset this thread" 00:07:46 stassats`, I typed ",s" and it didn't work... 00:08:04 did you hit Return? 00:08:15 stassats`: so maybe I just don't understand what "Reset this thread" really does 00:08:22 stassats`, I hit "Enter"... 00:08:28 and it broke :P 00:08:44 you broke your keyboard? 00:08:47 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 00:08:53 stassats`, I meant slime 00:08:58 ah 00:09:09 in what fashion? 00:09:12 divia__ [n=divia@98.210.196.101] has joined #lisp 00:09:53 stassats`, when I satrt slime, I get a repl. That's where I typed it, and it gave an error 00:10:10 well, what error? 00:10:38 SB-INT:SIMPLE-READER-ERROR on #: 00:10:38 comma not inside a backquote 00:10:38 [Condition of type SB-INT:SIMPLE-READER-ERROR] 00:11:05 Then: the variable S is unbound 00:11:16 wait, is that *inferior-lisp* buffer? 00:11:28 bgs100: the comma must be the first char in command 00:11:37 stassats`, yes 00:11:39 milaz, ? 00:11:41 bgs100: and then you type the command in minibuffer 00:11:48 you didn't put (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) in your .emacs 00:12:02 stassats`, no... 00:12:29 is there a way to have methods have a variable number of arguments? for instance, the generic function takes 1 argument and a method taking a different number of arguments 00:12:43 bgs100: so, you type commands after * 00:12:48 bgs100: ? 00:13:52 bgs100: in slime repl, you'll see CL-USER> prompt 00:13:53 milaz, ? 00:14:12 I just see a "* " 00:14:22 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:14:38 bgs100: so, you have to add (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) instead of just (slime-setup) to your .emacs file 00:14:40 well, as you was told more than once, put (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) in .emacs 00:15:21 replace the (slime-setup) line with that? 00:15:41 yep 00:15:54 ramus`: &rest ? 00:16:12 -!- divia_ [n=divia@98.210.196.101] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:16:12 ramus`: and there are also keyword arguments 00:16:17 Okay, now I get CL-USER> 00:16:33 bgs100: congratulations, now you are in a real slime repl. 00:16:36 there you type ",s" 00:17:05 clhs 7.6.4 00:17:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_fd.htm 00:17:22 ramus`: that's for you 00:17:31 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:17:34 okay, reading it 00:19:46 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:20:00 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:20:32 looks the best thing for me to do is just a &rest and destructuring-bind 00:20:35 thanks for the link 00:20:47 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 00:21:16 Thanks for the slime help 00:21:33 ramus`: i'd use &key 00:21:46 bgs100: you are welcome 00:21:47 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 00:22:40 (with &allow-other-keys) 00:22:52 I think I'm going to use emacs from now on 00:23:37 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:40 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 00:25:30 -!- divia [n=divia@98.210.196.101] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:26:08 stassats`: that requires keywords to go along with arguments, which isn't convienent for me 00:26:25 theL00p [n=user@78.33.52.101] has joined #lisp 00:26:31 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:56 -!- Breeze [n=breeze@ip4da49dc6.direct-adsl.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:29:30 HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 00:29:36 -!- kpreid___ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:29:36 -!- vixey [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:29:58 vixey [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:31:20 How would you set terminal emacs to allow the mouse (like vi's :set mouse=a)? 00:31:57 use X'ed emacs? 00:32:58 bgs100: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Text_002dOnly-Mouse.html 00:33:06 googled that for you 00:33:37 Thanks 00:34:06 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:30 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:36:50 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:36:56 stassats`, How would you make it do that at startup? 00:37:26 (xterm-mouse-mode 1) in .emacs? 00:38:42 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-231-13.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 00:38:53 Thanks 00:41:02 rullie_ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:43:26 -!- rullie__ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:24 -!- mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c5a958b0109a98c3] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 00:44:46 Bye all! 00:45:06 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:45:32 -!- milaz [n=user@85.172.99.141] has quit ["bye!"] 00:45:41 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 00:48:16 -!- theL00p [n=user@78.33.52.101] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:49:59 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:51:12 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:51:54 nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:02 Evening all. 00:53:35 Hi nyef 00:55:55 *nyef* frowns at BUGS #416. 00:56:46 Hrm. Not *evaluator-mode*... Maybe it doesn't apply to x86-64 anymore? 00:57:00 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:57:12 Or could be policy-dependent. 01:02:15 bugrum [n=vedam@c-98-201-95-13.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:53 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:03:34 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:03:46 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.36] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:04:08 Ooh. SBCL runs the x86 FPU at reduced precision. Even though the floats are in the context as long-floats, they'll only ever be -worth- a double-float. 01:05:33 Might be able to fix that in the debugger. Possibly with a bit of informative text if there's something in the inaccessible bits. 01:05:53 (Or I guess long-float support could possibly be resurrected... Maybe.) 01:06:23 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:41 phf [n=phf@c-98-231-211-226.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:01 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@71.114.64.62] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:16:48 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-277bab3e92efb430] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:21:04 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2F36C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:28:09 nyef: oh please don't :) 01:29:10 What? 01:29:24 -!- saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [] 01:29:43 make long-float go. I have a tree around that ditches long-float support 01:29:53 So...? 01:30:11 nobody uses long-float in the first place? 01:30:21 That's because it doesn't work. 01:31:38 well... 01:33:09 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:12 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:33:36 The whole "nobody uses it" argument for stuff that's broken is superficially true but isn't really a good argument for not fixing it. 01:34:16 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-28-240.netcologne.de] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 01:34:45 Oh, right. I wanted to ask you. Was that count of FIXMEs in the source accurate, or fabricated for the sake of the joke? 01:36:18 oh, most definitely fabricated 01:37:53 I did repeat the joke in 1.0.28.23, but I realized afterwards that I at least added one beforehand, and am not sure of what the net effect was over the period between 1.0.28.7 and 1.0.28.23. 01:37:54 the concern with stuff that's broken and not the default is that a) nobody has noticed; b) if anybody did, they weren't motivated to fix it; and c) breakage is unlikely to be noticed in the future (unless the feature is made the default) 01:39:10 enabling long-float support is also likely to eat widetags and I think Xof had expressed some concern about that. 01:41:45 -!- nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:41:49 nyef_ [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:09 Stupid bloody hotel internet. :-/ 01:42:37 I wonder what "natural" alignment is for long floats (: 01:43:17 Well, they're 80 bits, which is three words, right? Or am I misremembering? 01:45:09 hm, grep says there are 979 FIXMEs. how depressing. 01:45:34 from another perspective, that could be liberating. 01:46:12 Just think of how many bottles of beer that is! 01:46:57 392 KLUDGEs and 51 TODOs. we need committers who can hold their liquor. 01:47:54 Oof. I added at least two FIXMEs when I fixed the x86oid alien funcall result thing. 01:49:42 Oh, hey, that KLUDGE for nondeterministic-catch-block-size is still there, isn't it? 01:49:49 think so. 01:51:20 I've known how to fix it for ages now, but it requires adding another file that loads before src/compiler/target/vm.lisp but after vm-macs.lisp. 01:53:11 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.140.62] has joined #lisp 01:55:03 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633642.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:55:32 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:50 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:56 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@90.3.168.156] has quit ["« La POO c'est bien beau, mais en C au moins on va droit au but. »"] 01:58:47 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 02:00:08 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 02:03:22 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:04:24 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:04:37 -!- dreish [n=dreish@207.138.47.173] has quit [] 02:06:22 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:07:26 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["DON'T PANIC"] 02:09:31 saikat [n=saikat@67.180.9.222] has joined #lisp 02:12:54 pounk [n=pounk@69-196-152-86.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:13:41 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Client Quit] 02:13:45 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 02:13:59 *pinterface* grumbles at defclass-star for putting accessors in *package* instead of (symbol-package slot-name). 02:16:00 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:16:33 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 02:17:13 weird. I compiled a new SBCL and installed it, and some of the files aren't world-readable. 02:17:38 I blame your umask. 02:17:43 me too! 02:18:24 Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.123] has joined #lisp 02:20:43 I quite understand this though, as I've reinstalled SBCL dozens of times since I changed my umask, and I'm also not sure how it interacts with using sudo to run the install script 02:20:56 (don't) 02:22:13 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 02:23:08 I did accidentally type "make install" in the sbcl directory, and it did something mysterious, so maybe that screwed it up, but I can't figure out what it could have changed 02:26:17 Oh, heh. install.sh is just preserving the permissions already on the files, and at some point I did a mass chmod o-rwx -R ~ 02:31:32 -!- vixey [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:34:35 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-49-156.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:36:28 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:41 -!- ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:38:45 living dangerously or single-user, hefner? :) 02:39:22 either you read that backward, or you have a very different definition of "dangerously" than I do. 02:40:38 maybe that's not an XOR, but an IOR. 02:42:11 And here I thought it was and ANDC2. 02:42:23 (Or is that ANDC1? Whichever...) 02:42:42 I would rather live single user, but not so dangerously, as my ideal setup involves some use of, say, ext3cow. 02:43:07 (which might itself be dangerous, but for different reasons) 02:44:13 wangchung [n=spanky@cpe-74-75-65-48.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:46:18 -!- wangchung [n=spanky@cpe-74-75-65-48.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:53:13 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["upgrade"] 02:54:56 I read o-rwx as o+rwx 02:55:12 damn you bourne shell `set' 03:03:31 hm. Did the ANSI committee have a reason for not making regular defclass more like defclass*? 03:04:23 -!- bugrum [n=vedam@c-98-201-95-13.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:04:59 -!- divia__ [n=divia@98.210.196.101] has quit [] 03:05:09 Of course they did. That reason may be as simple as "they didn't think of it", but they had a reason. 03:05:21 Maybe there's an issue writup affecting defclass? 03:05:34 where do I find such things? 03:05:41 Hyperspec, of course. 03:06:01 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:06:05 I mean, it seems to be that macroing away :accessor/:initform, and *especially* :initarg would be the most obvious first step. 03:06:19 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:10:08 oh. I didn't realize :accessor/:reader/:writer generated unqualified methods. 03:11:46 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.140.62] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:15:17 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 03:15:56 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 03:21:19 -!- nyef_ [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 03:22:04 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 03:24:03 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:24 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.123] has quit ["leaving"] 03:28:42 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:33:50 jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:43:48 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-49-156.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["« La POO c'est bien beau, mais en C au moins on va droit au but. »"] 03:45:20 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:47:53 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:50:57 kic [n=kic@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa24] has joined #lisp 03:54:07 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-144-151.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:54:12 ltriant [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:57:44 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.139.223] has joined #lisp 03:58:17 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.139.223] has quit [Client Quit] 03:58:24 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:58:34 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.139.223] has joined #lisp 04:00:48 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 04:02:54 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 04:08:16 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:41 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:09:12 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:24 kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:12:37 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-14-157.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 04:13:07 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-14-157.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:49 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:17:43 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-156.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:19:40 -!- saikat [n=saikat@67.180.9.222] has quit [] 04:23:24 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:25:22 -!- kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:27:13 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:27:35 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 04:29:39 -!- RadSurfer [n=RadSurfe@unaffiliated/radsurfer] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:30:26 -!- kic [n=kic@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa24] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:30:46 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:33:07 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.139.223] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:33:26 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.139.223] has joined #lisp 04:37:48 saikat [n=saikat@67.180.9.222] has joined #lisp 04:42:30 Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.123] has joined #lisp 04:55:43 pstickne [n=pstickne@65.102.47.229] has joined #lisp 04:57:10 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:23 greetings everyone. 05:02:56 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [] 05:12:32 -!- raph_m [n=raph_m@c-76-115-107-160.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:18:55 -!- jsoft_ is now known as jsoft 05:19:06 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 05:22:24 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:23:08 -!- saikat [n=saikat@67.180.9.222] has quit [] 05:24:10 cool 05:24:21 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:24:21 I just ressurected the lisp version of http://www.ai.sri.com/~stickel/pttp.html 05:24:44 idk what good it does me, but all of the results match up 05:25:58 (- 2009 1986) => 23 05:26:50 and to think C++ finally will have lambdas :) 05:27:07 it'll still have ugly syntax :-) 05:27:25 yes 05:28:27 but yeah, baby steps 05:28:40 by the time i'm 60 C++ will have s-exprs 05:28:40 given enough time, C++ will converge on Lisp. 05:29:01 its a long time until i'm 60 unfortunately... 05:29:15 who cares .. you already found lisp :) 05:30:02 true enough :-) 05:30:51 anyone know where i can find a symbolics common lisp manual? 05:32:20 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-231-13.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 05:34:06 maybe http://bitsavers.org/pdf/symbolics/ JAS415 05:36:08 shelducks [n=paro@121.28.12.5] has joined #lisp 05:38:31 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:42:48 ah great, think i may have found it there, thanks! 05:44:23 -!- BrandonWilson [n=a@216.71.225.62] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:47:30 saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 05:47:53 -!- phf [n=phf@c-98-231-211-226.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 05:48:36 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 05:50:11 Hello! 05:56:11 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:56:51 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:01:20 -!- dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:02:01 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:02:05 xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:02:07 good morning 06:02:07 intraline [n=paro@121.28.12.5] has joined #lisp 06:02:21 -!- shelducks [n=paro@121.28.12.5] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:03:33 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:04:03 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:09:52 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 06:11:22 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 06:14:55 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 06:19:43 -!- rullie_ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:20:23 -!- intraline [n=paro@121.28.12.5] has quit [Client Quit] 06:20:35 shelducks [n=paro@121.28.12.5] has joined #lisp 06:20:50 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 06:25:41 when I use (loop for i from 1 to 10 sum i) is it possible to sum only some elements ? like only this divided by 2 ? 06:25:58 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:28:13 (loop for i from 1 upto 10 if (= 0 (mod i 2)) sum i) 06:28:17 (or whatever) 06:28:40 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:29:44 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:32:41 ah thx, I've just read about when in loop 06:32:50 for all his plugging, I have never heard Tilton mention the RPC callback mechanism in qooxdoo. Full duplex communication between client and server. yep! server (not necessarily http) calls out to client :-) 06:33:09 what is qooxdoo? 06:33:22 it's a javascript gui toolkit and framework 06:33:43 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:35:32 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:36:47 but the bloody thing is more of a traditional "framework"; it has its own SDK with build tools and it has a strict event system, object system and a strict class heirarchy. not your usual JS mess where you can stick things in from the sides. 06:41:16 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@93.34.8.7] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:41:22 Good morning. 06:41:42 hey beach 06:42:04 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:44:58 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6BD56.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:47 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:50:08 splittist [n=dmurray@159-110.0-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:50:10 morning 06:50:21 hello splittist 06:51:14 ejs [n=eugen@118-31-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:41 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 06:57:56 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:58:34 MrSpec: also (loop for i from 0 upto 10 by 2 collect i) 06:58:52 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:59:42 nikodemus: thx 07:00:27 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-159.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:11 ASau` [n=user@host192-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:02:33 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 07:02:33 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.123] has quit ["leaving"] 07:03:02 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:03:07 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:26 good morning 07:08:37 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-159.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:08:52 hello kami- 07:09:25 Mrspec pasted "Can I write it shorter ? " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79884 07:09:44 Could you tell me if I can write it shorter ? 07:10:16 I'm not sure if using 2 times maximize is needed ? 07:10:55 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 07:11:26 You only have to test values of j from i+1 to 999 07:11:43 ah yeah 07:13:25 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:14:33 also, you don't have to test multiples of 10 07:16:34 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 07:16:56 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:56 add some if ? when i/j is multiple of 10 ? 07:17:19 what? 07:17:43 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 07:17:59 You probably don't save much in this case. 07:18:36 But if you plan to do this on larger numbers one day, it could be interesting. 07:19:00 If so, first test whether i is a multiple of 10, and then don't execute the inner loop at all. 07:19:05 ah, It is only for one use 07:19:23 but I'll add it 07:19:30 mega1 [n=mega@3e44b9e4.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:19:41 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:20:43 MrSpec: what do you mean by "it is only for one use"? 07:21:14 I have to check numbers from 100-900 that all, no other numbers 07:21:49 Ah, OK. 07:22:06 Then there is no need to optimize, because it is going to be very fast anyway. 07:23:07 yes ok, but I was thinking about write it as short as possible 07:23:14 how to * 07:23:41 Yea, I know. I just thought I would point it out to you. 07:24:12 ok. thanks :] 07:25:23 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:25:25 -!- mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:25:55 wow, sbcl manual has grown to 140 pages. i would have guessed 80 07:26:24 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-159.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:28 majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 07:30:18 -!- ejs [n=eugen@118-31-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:31:46 mqt [n=tran@caledonia.rh.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 07:31:49 -!- mqt [n=tran@caledonia.rh.rit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 07:32:48 attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.132.189.132] has joined #lisp 07:32:59 -!- ltriant [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has left #lisp 07:33:38 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 07:33:42 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:34:44 I don't know why slime (updated some time ago from CVS) indents differently than before. 07:35:00 kami- pasted "slime indenting" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79886 07:35:52 with long function names, my code disappears to the right 07:36:06 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:36:11 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:36:36 There was a bug, make sure you're on HEAD 07:38:21 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 07:39:39 tcr: thank you. will give it a try. 07:41:30 Russel-Athletic [n=engelzz@wpa-uds014.funklan.uni-saarland.de] has joined #lisp 07:41:33 hiho 07:41:55 lichtblau [n=user@wallstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 07:42:08 a quick question: how do I declare a type (for optimisation reasons) to contain a list of fixnums? 07:42:34 i tried (declare (type (list fixnums) var) but this gives me an error that this is not valid 07:42:52 (member 1 2 3 15) is a typespec 07:43:09 so that should work, I don't know if any compiler will optimize it, though 07:43:14 Russel-Athletic: You can't. Common Lisp's type system does not support recursive types. 07:43:35 Russel-Athletic: You can however declare a fixed-length list of a certain type. 07:44:12 ooh, I guess that wasn't what you meant by a list of fixnums. hmm. 07:44:23 -!- majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:44:41 oh that is bad... 07:45:16 you can declare the variable to which you assign each element to be fixnum, if that helps 07:45:26 chickamade [n=chickama@123.16.64.200] has joined #lisp 07:45:27 Russel-Athletic: You can declare the iteration variable (that you use to grovel overt he list) to be of type fixnum. 07:45:37 tcr: (-: 07:45:44 yow! 07:45:55 and don't forget statisfies 07:45:57 what antifuchs and tcr said. A list is a list is a list. 07:46:08 not that it helps much 07:46:12 mega1: Well he said for reasons of optimization :) 07:46:23 antoszka [n=antoszka@chello087206248143.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 07:46:39 I can't parse nested expressions. 07:46:45 can I declare it before it is declared? 07:46:58 How do you mean? 07:47:42 i have some cod (defun tmp () (do-stuff) (loop for literal in list do ... 07:47:55 and i want to declare the literal to be a fixnum 07:48:12 Russel-Athletic: (loop for element of type fixnum in list do ...) 07:48:32 or was it of-type? 07:48:58 of-type :) 07:48:59 thanks 07:50:27 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 07:50:48 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.139.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:51:11 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:52:33 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 07:52:59 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:53:37 ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.101.94] has joined #lisp 07:53:58 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:55:22 milanj [n=milan@93.86.21.21] has joined #lisp 07:56:08 -!- Russel-Athletic [n=engelzz@wpa-uds014.funklan.uni-saarland.de] has quit ["leaving"] 07:57:14 -!- chickamade [n=chickama@123.16.64.200] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:57:45 ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 07:58:18 -!- jdz_ is now known as jdz 07:59:45 I am running CVS version of Huncentoot with CVS version of SBCL. When running (hunchentoot:start (make-instance 'hunchentoot:acceptor :port 4242)), the function never returns. However The server s up and accessible. Dooes anyone know what is causng this? 08:02:26 tic [n=tic@c83-249-195-183.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:02:36 -!- tic_ [n=tic@c83-249-195-183.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:04:59 younder: Sounds like a single-threaded acceptor. Did you build SBCL with thread support? 08:05:22 *sykopomp* prays daily for the day when common lisp will have a release culture. 08:05:56 mega1: building on alpha now -- thanks for the farm tip 08:06:16 Opps, haven't checked. What is the default? 08:06:22 sykopomp, then it is not common lisp 08:06:25 *araujo* hides 08:06:35 *sykopomp* grabs a pitchfork and torch. 08:06:51 haha 08:07:19 nikodemus: no probs, just watch how much disk you use on the alpha 08:07:21 :D 08:07:41 there were requests recently to delete as much as we can. 08:07:43 i noticed that gcc17 at least wasn't able to build all of the contribs, though, due to running out of memory -> could not fork(). was i just out of luck re. too many parallel gcc builds, or what? 08:07:45 younder: No idea. But :sb-thread should be in *features*. 08:08:01 let us not assume this mystical "release culture" will really solve any real problems 08:08:07 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 08:08:43 nikodemus: I've had this experience with x86-64. I had to sprinkle --dynamic-space-size 500 around to fix it. 08:08:58 right'o 08:09:07 and even then sometimes sbcl cannot start up if there is another sbcl running ... 08:09:09 pinterface: no it isn't, guess your right.. Time for a rebuild 08:09:17 eh 08:09:22 later guy's.. 08:11:21 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:14:46 Why does DEFPACKAGE signal a warning on "also export the following symbols"? 08:15:38 I can see it to warrant a style-warning but a warning... which results in an annoying asdf error by default 08:15:51 "to annoy SBCL's users"? 08:16:35 It's definitively good at that 08:16:47 Personally I think an error with two restarts would be nice, allowing users to unintern the old symbols, or mark them as "I want to keep them, don't tell me again". 08:16:57 an error?? 08:17:08 I'm not sure how to implement the latter though. 08:17:36 tcr: "If the new definition is at variance with the current state of that package, the consequences are undefined; an implementation might choose to modify the existing package to reflect the new definition." 08:17:44 I hate it, too. On the other hand prevents getting the image get out of sync with the files. 08:17:50 why not? Errors are allowed for undefined consequences, aren't they? 08:18:00 that could work 08:18:23 *hefner* likes it, uses it to generate export lists for macro-generated things like instruction emitters 08:18:40 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-159.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:18:41 The package in question is sb-bsd-sockets btw. 08:18:46 (..although I guess you could do that any number of ways.) 08:18:50 let's make it an error :) 08:19:17 packages using auto-exports should not use defpackage, but make-package 08:22:50 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 08:23:27 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 08:23:35 oh, I remove the export calls once I've built the list =p 08:24:10 No pity for packages with auto-exports forced by an underlying library, eh? 08:26:05 I think it says everything that an sbcl contrib does not stick to that discipline 08:29:26 Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.123] has joined #lisp 08:29:27 danlei [n=user@pD9E2F5BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:28 so more enforcement is needed, obviously 08:33:00 You'll break swank 08:33:04 wait, what? 08:33:13 among other things 08:33:14 maybe it will finally motivate me to sort out clx's package discipline, too 08:33:19 cracki [n=cracki@40-157.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:33:31 you only break things that reevaluate the defpackage _after_ messing about with the packages 08:34:18 if i (require :sb-bsd-sockets) from the repl, i don't see a warning 08:34:31 how does swank make it warn? 08:34:42 repl=terminal, above 08:36:32 mintsoup [n=andar@c-71-237-89-53.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:42 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:37:10 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:37:30 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:41:26 nikodemus: ,force-load-system mcclim 08:44:19 Hm I was pretty sure that such warning was also produced when starting slime. Does not seem to be the case anymore. Hrm, yeah, I remember that I actually fixed that 08:44:48 oh, yeah. forcing-loading required modules 08:55:16 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:55:46 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:58:12 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 09:04:10 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 09:07:27 this reminds me of symbol conflict resolution 09:07:59 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 09:08:17 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 09:08:32 apparently, conflict is always between a 'NEW' and an 'OLD' symbol except for the unintern shadowing symbol case when we can have basically any number of conflicting symbols. 09:08:45 rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-109.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:09:21 it would not be a big deal to provide use-new, use-old restarts 09:10:00 and use-case-NNN restarts for the unintern shadowing case 09:10:04 comments? 09:13:19 younder [n=jpthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 09:15:52 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6BD56.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 09:15:56 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-70.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 09:16:23 X-Scale2 [n=email@89.180.151.164] has joined #lisp 09:16:48 philipp [n=pbenner@ini-firewall.unizh.ch] has joined #lisp 09:17:23 sounds vaguely ok to me 09:18:19 is there a way to export/import data structures in sbcl? like an instance of some class 09:19:04 what do you mean by export/import? 09:19:19 do you mean serialize/marshall? 09:19:36 drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-5.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:19:36 or rather serialize/deserialize 09:19:51 serealize/deseriealize probably 09:20:06 just created an object and want to save it for later use 09:20:20 yes and no 09:21:34 there is PRINT-OBJECT and MAKE-LOAD-FORM (both are standard) 09:22:14 the first allows you to serialize using the printer/reader, and the second allows you to dump objects in fasls 09:22:53 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:05 danlei pasted "serialization" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79888 09:23:13 feel free to critizise ... 09:23:22 -!- X-Scale [n=email@89.180.188.211] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:23:37 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as X-Scale 09:25:24 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-30-36.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 09:26:44 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-serializer/ is probably worth looking at if print/read doesn't suit your needs 09:26:50 roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:13 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-133-157-112.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:28:31 is there an easy way to call a construction function for a superclass from within the construction function of a subclass ? 09:28:39 cl-store is another one 09:28:48 eh what 09:29:12 initialization, i presume you mean 09:29:41 a function which simply calls make-instance '... 09:29:47 yeah right 09:29:55 minion: lisppaste 09:29:56 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 09:30:43 can you paste what you want there? -- just mark CALL X HERE -- in the place where you don't know what to do 09:31:22 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:31:46 mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-48be5f0ee52ec8a4] has joined #lisp 09:32:05 blackout [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has joined #lisp 09:33:04 (defclass A () 09:33:05 ((slot-1 :accessor slot-1))) 09:33:05 (defun make-A () 09:33:05 (make-instance 'A)) 09:33:06 (defclass B () 09:33:06 ()) 09:33:07 (defun make-B () 09:33:09 (let ((b (make-instance 'B))) 09:33:10 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-faad516893ba8de2] has joined #lisp 09:33:11 ;; how to call make-A ??)) 09:33:35 roidrage: take a look at paste.lisp.org 09:33:46 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-139.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:34:09 roidrage pasted "Call super-class initialization from subclass init function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79889 09:35:13 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-34.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:35:38 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:40:15 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6BD56.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:02 roidrage: did you mean (defclass b (a) ())? A is not a superclass of B in your code 09:42:25 -!- mintsoup [n=andar@c-71-237-89-53.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has left #lisp 09:42:27 yes, sorry, (defclass B (A) ... 09:42:30 btw. I found a solution 09:42:33 slots are inherited 09:42:44 I simply call a super class method which does the initialization of the super-class slots 09:43:06 roidrage: even better, just a sec 09:44:00 danlei annotated #79889 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79889#1 09:45:05 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-faad516893ba8de2] has left #lisp 09:45:58 adityo [n=adityo@59.183.26.106] has joined #lisp 09:48:20 know I understand... in (make-instance 'b :foo XXX) I pass my actual super class method call for XXX 09:48:22 that's great 09:48:35 nikodemus annotated #79889 "use :AFTER methods on INITIALIZE-INSTANCE" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79889#2 09:49:00 roidrage: oh, had a typo in there ... (make-instance 'b ...) of course 09:49:06 no worry 09:49:23 -!- philipp [n=pbenner@ini-firewall.unizh.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:49:34 nikodemus: that's even better, right 09:49:42 i like the concetp of after,and before methods 09:50:02 of course, no point in initialize-instance methods unless you actually compute something in them -- and the first one could be replaced with just an :initarg :x :initform 0 to the slot definition of X 09:50:03 didn' know that i can use it within make-instance 09:50:12 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 09:50:26 roidrage: are you reading a book? 09:50:32 yes 09:50:37 kleene 09:50:38 philipp [n=pbenner@ini-firewall.unizh.ch] has joined #lisp 09:50:39 pcl? 09:50:54 oh, right. should have guessed from make-a :) 09:51:09 sry, keene 09:51:22 that ones on my list (and in my shelf), too :) 09:51:36 *one is 09:51:45 a very good book regarding CLOS, unfortunately sometimes too long descriptions for simple things 09:51:56 but I guess that's ok, regarding the mistake I did above 09:54:20 nikodemus: I like the notation x-of, really makes sense in cases of (x-of instance) 09:57:04 roidrage: yeah, that one is nice. sometimes, just X works very well, too; especially if there are some cases where you want to make specialized methods for some things and have the default accessor for others 09:58:52 -!- mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-48be5f0ee52ec8a4] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 09:58:53 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:08 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 10:05:35 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 10:09:32 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-225-1.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:10:22 yes -- i'm starting to believe that any slot nameing rule is harmful the moment it is too rigidly adhered to 10:12:03 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:13:15 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:17:14 nikodemus: btw, is there a special reason for defining "only" a reader and then do (setf (slot-value ...))? i'd have done it like this: (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((sub sub) &key (y 0)) (setf (y sub) (+ (x sub) y))) 10:18:31 i'm not sure, if i'm missing something there, checked in the repl, and it seems to work fine 10:19:29 mjf [n=mjf@r3a98.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 10:22:47 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 10:25:20 -!- HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:29:34 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-158-152.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:31:52 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-faad516893ba8de2] has joined #lisp 10:32:40 i need to do '(1 2 3 4 5) -> '(1 3 5). basically get all odd elements. is there a better (lispy) way than:- (loop for i in '(1 2 3 4 5) when (oddp i) collect i) 10:33:59 spradnyesh: (remove-if-not (function odd) list) 10:34:08 (remove-if #'evenp '(1 2 3 4 5)) 10:34:09 spradnyesh: (remove-if-not (function oddp) list) 10:34:57 pjb`, danlei: thanks 10:38:55 HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:41:35 -!- maxote [n=el_ermit@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:44:29 puchacz [n=puchacz@87.194.5.99] has joined #lisp 10:46:48 mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-cef4d0d64c755b37] has joined #lisp 10:48:00 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:48:23 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:51:16 -!- HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:52:22 so, yay, I'm going to london on may 18. anyone there and want to meet? (: 10:53:02 in the circumstances, I'd better not 10:53:38 -!- younder [n=jpthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 10:54:09 jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 10:58:15 hee hee 10:58:28 I was rather thinking of a pub afterwards (: 10:59:26 i may be there 10:59:34 Spreading viruses is needed to spread the antibodies. 11:01:37 *antifuchs* looks at the swine flu case map 11:02:05 antifuchs: I might be there, maybe you want to announce your arrival to uk-lispers@alu.org ? 11:02:15 sounds good. 11:05:08 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 11:07:08 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:08:24 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:08:41 Mrspec pasted "collect" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79891 11:08:50 I'm trying to return list with solution -> (list x y z) but I get a lot of nils insted of solution. my list is only printed, not returned. Could you say me how to use collect, whats wrong ? 11:09:03 meingbg [n=user@remote5.student.chalmers.se] has joined #lisp 11:09:39 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 11:10:01 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 11:13:00 MrSpec: First you said you are trying to return it, then you said it is not returned. Which one is it? 11:13:11 maxote [n=maxote@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 11:13:23 MrSpec: If you don't want it returned, there is no need to use collect. 11:13:27 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@p244-n238.kthopen.kth.se] has joined #lisp 11:13:30 I want it 11:13:45 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-182-191-195.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:45 but isnt returned... 11:13:49 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 11:13:51 in this list with nils... 11:14:06 there isnt my list with x y and z 11:14:09 dan_b [n=dan@82.68.20.86] has joined #lisp 11:14:12 MrSpec: Also, you should indent your program correctly, so that we don't have to count parentheses in order to understand it. 11:14:13 slime-repl.el: 11:14:14 ;; This used to be the default REPL for SLIME, but it was hard to 11:14:16 ;; maintain. 11:14:24 ;so what replaced it? the NEWS file doesn't shed much light 11:14:31 hello dan_b 11:14:35 hiya 11:15:11 and (slime-setup '(slime-repl)) no longer works for me, so Im suspecting bitrot 11:15:13 dan_b: nothing. you just use slime-fancy or slime-repl in your slime setup 11:15:26 it should work like that 11:15:37 MrSpec: Furthermore, you should use LET to introduce local variables, and not setq. 11:16:07 ok. I'll correct this things and send it one more time :) 11:16:41 MrSpec: Then try to replace the outer collect by append. 11:19:04 (append (loop... instead of collect (loop... ? 11:19:16 minimal .emacs at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79892 what am I missing? 11:19:44 when I M-x slime it comes up in *inferior-lisp* 11:20:04 MrSpec: No! No parenthesis. Just replace `collect' by `append'. 11:21:02 oh, let me amend that: sliem-repl is apparently no longer part of slime-fancy 11:21:18 ah ok 11:23:25 oh, let me amend that again: "(require 'slime-autoloads)" is now contraindicated 11:24:13 when I use LET do introduce variables, I should use setf when I change this variable ? 11:24:40 MrSpec: Yes, but why would you want to change it in this case? 11:24:42 dan_b: you need to keep up with the times! 11:25:13 dan_b: i've checked out yesterday and have (require 'slime) (slimesetup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf slime-references slime-indentation) in my .emacs, which works for me 11:25:30 * slime-setup 11:26:01 xof: apparently so .. and I'd happily have stuck with last summer's slime if it didn't tread on an abcl package lock in the newest sbcl 11:26:02 I'll show code in a second, It'll be easier. 11:26:02 dan_b: yes, slime-autoload is not working for me, either. loading everything upfront works 11:26:12 er, sbcl pacage lock 11:26:14 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-109.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:26:23 time for a dbcl ((: 11:26:34 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 11:26:41 wait, that would even make sense (: 11:27:31 #+sbcl (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel) (sb-ext:unlock-package 'sb-impl)) on top of swank-presentation-streams.lisp ... 11:28:25 if I knew that was going to be the only problem, yes. as I don't, probably safer even if drastically more tedious to upgrade the whole thing bleeding-edge 11:29:06 Mrspec annotated #79891 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79891#1 11:29:34 is it indent correctly ? 11:29:52 -!- jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:29:57 MrSpec: What editor are you using? 11:30:00 hm, is parse-number still the recommended way to parse floating-point numbers without using READ? 11:30:12 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-faad516893ba8de2] has left #lisp 11:30:16 and now... I have to change the value of z, so I have to use setf. 11:30:27 Emacs 11:30:51 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:31:04 rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-109.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:31:51 The loop keywords don't look correctly indented, but the rest looks OK. 11:33:19 MrSpec: I would do collect (let ((z ...)) (cond ((and (> z (eval...) 11:33:38 MrSpec: And I would do (let ((equation (subst n 'n '(= n ...))))) 11:33:50 MrSpec: Then you don't need any setfs 11:34:05 hehe v. nice 11:34:17 thanks, I'll do it 11:34:21 MrSpec: It is standard functional style. 11:34:46 yeah, but I'm still learning 11:35:31 -!- projections [n=p@88.235.101.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:36:20 so when I use let, I can always write my code without setfs ? 11:39:06 no, but maybe you will use setf less often 11:39:12 what issues should I consider when choosing web server, e.g. bknr/allegro or hunchentoot? 11:40:07 hunchentoot is Made By Edi 11:40:08 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:40:18 so I would start there unless you know it lacks features that you need 11:41:15 MrSpec: are you aware of the difference between dynamic and lexical vars, and that the setqs in your first pase result in undefined behaviour? 11:41:24 whee. at last the sbcl bug fixed the string-to-octets bug that was the original cause of this upgrade spree 11:41:30 me retrns to hacking 11:41:38 Tell me about Edi. Is he the one who made the cl perl regexp? 11:42:23 http://www.weitz.de/ 11:43:11 danlei: no, I'm not afraid but it was faster to write. Now I will try use more lets ;) 11:43:26 Edi is the lisper who writes libraries while the rest work on implementations. 11:44:43 pinterface annotated #79891 "No eval, subst, or setf necessary" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79891#2 11:44:46 MrSpec: this helped me: http://www.flownet.com/gat/specials.pdf 11:44:54 mega1: and we hang on irc :) 11:45:12 Mrspec annotated #79891 "corrected" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79891#3 11:45:31 danlei: ok I'll read it, thx 11:46:02 now code looks better :) 11:46:21 and works (but with remove nil :S ) 11:47:10 is hunchentoot more sbcl-friendly than allegroserve? 11:47:40 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:47:55 i'd guess more people use hunchentoot sbcl than allegroserve 11:48:16 s/sbcl/on sbcl/ 11:48:32 MrSpec: use something like: for z (- y (- x y)) when (and (> z 0) ...) collect (list x y z) 11:48:40 ok. 11:49:10 *for z = (- y ...) 11:50:13 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 11:50:17 jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 11:51:33 hmm I can't see it. 11:51:41 change the 2nd for ? 11:52:06 The hunchentoot tutorial says not to rely solely on sessions for security. How big are the risks really, and how can I secure my applicaton? 11:52:39 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:53:11 beach annotated #79891 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79891#4 11:53:31 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:12 s/(> z 0)/(plusp z)/ 11:54:23 that too. 11:54:52 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:54:56 thanks 11:55:02 jdz annotated #79891 "something like this" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79891#5 11:55:12 and using eval for bruteforcing isn't the best idea 11:55:14 I didn't know about (defstruct (binop (:type list)) 11:55:20 stuff. Very interesting. 11:55:44 jdz: you can remove the (remove nil 11:55:51 ye, right 11:55:59 now you can 11:56:14 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:56:17 jdz: and then you get something pretty much identical to my previous annotation. 11:56:17 stassats: what is better than eval ? 11:56:24 MrSpec: but be wary -- too much loop will get you into trouble :) 11:56:42 MrSpec: flet, lambda, another defun 11:56:53 hehe this code looks quite different than first version :D I have a lot to learn :D 11:57:22 beach: yes, sorry, did not look at your version (which looks identical to what i intended to write) 11:58:54 Davse_Ba1se [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 11:58:56 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 11:59:24 beach annotated #79891 "without eval" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79891#6 11:59:32 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:04 beach: damn, you beat me to it! 12:00:07 wow, thanks :D 12:00:16 jdz: sorry! 12:00:23 *pinterface* points to the second annotation and looks for his slapping trout. :P 12:00:26 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:41 I will have to send every my program here, to make it more lispy :D 12:00:45 if equation is dynamically acquired, than you can compile it 12:01:15 *jdz* thinks pinterface has a point... 12:01:24 MrSpec: It is even better if you learn to write idiomatic code in the first place. 12:01:37 idiomatic ? 12:02:11 MrSpec: Google "define idiomatic" 12:02:26 k ;) 12:02:41 HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 12:02:46 -!- HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:02:56 MrSpec: Learning to program is essentially learning the distinction between grammatical and idiomatic phrases. The latter for a very small subset of the former. 12:02:58 HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 12:03:05 *form 12:03:32 MrSpec: This is the same as with a natural langauge. 12:03:34 so this the right way to write programs in lisp ? 12:04:10 MrSpec: There is not one single right way, but my last annotation should be pretty close to idiomatic. 12:04:45 ok, it is what I was thinking about. 12:05:03 I have question about this flet 12:05:10 Is it much faster than eval ? 12:05:16 you bet 12:05:25 and besides, it's not about speed 12:05:42 not ? 12:05:44 you have compiler, parser, and whatnot with eval 12:05:51 using eval is wrong in almost all cases 12:06:15 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-109.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:06:18 O, I didnt know :\ 12:06:28 This is way my last brute program was so slow :S 12:06:31 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.123] has quit ["leaving"] 12:07:00 It was up to 100times slowet then the same progam in Icon language 12:07:05 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:07:31 MrSpec: for added bonus try compiling the solve function :) 12:07:47 ok 12:08:02 assuming that's sbcl, no bonus here 12:08:28 Icon has EVAL? 12:08:35 actually, sbcl's compile all nature will slowdown EVAL 12:09:04 beach: nope, I had to write my own eval using map function 12:10:03 stassats: sbcl is no longer compiler-only -- it has both two different EVAL modes 12:10:06 what should be the bonus ? 12:10:12 speed 12:10:23 ah :D 12:10:28 oh, one more improvement, equation doesn't need to take n as a parameter. 12:10:40 no ? 12:10:43 (describe 'sb-ext:*evaluator-mode*) 12:10:43 nikodemus: yes, but compiler-only is the default one 12:10:48 yes 12:10:52 MrSpec: no, it can get it from the parameter of solve. 12:11:06 MrSpec: since n doesn't change in the loop. 12:11:57 ah yes 12:12:10 I will write tonight about this flet 12:12:26 It works great 12:13:09 MrSpec: There is probably another huge improvement you can make 12:13:22 (in terms of speed) 12:13:26 say plx :] 12:13:37 well, 2y-x has to be positive. 12:14:14 yeah 12:14:23 I check it (plusp z) 12:14:28 so you can start the y loop at (ceiling (/ x 2)) 12:14:41 ah 12:14:42 ok 12:15:16 or better, loop over y first, and then x, and loop until x is below 2y 12:15:40 -!- jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:15:57 hehe nice, I'll correct it 12:16:01 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 12:18:32 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-234-19.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 12:19:21 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:46 I should have said WHILE x is below 2y. And you can then remove the plusp test. 12:20:13 hmm with this (* y 2) It is slower 12:21:47 beach annotated #79891 "Is this what you have too?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79891#7 12:22:02 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@p244-n238.kthopen.kth.se] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 12:22:06 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-182-191-195.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 12:22:15 I have to intead of below 12:22:26 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:50 MrSpec: Well, it has to be strictly positive right, so if you include 2y, that is no longer the case. 12:23:31 But it still should not be slower than it was before. 12:24:20 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:24:25 after y = 50, the second loop does more iterations 12:24:36 Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.123] has joined #lisp 12:26:11 oh, right 12:26:12 well, before 50 it does less 12:26:12 heh this solve found more solutions 12:26:41 MrSpec: right, it is doing more work, as stassats pointed out. 12:26:56 yeah 12:27:06 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087DD9D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:10 Still, here, finding every solution for n from 1 to 10000 takes about 3 seconds. 12:27:31 hmm 12:27:40 I have much better time 12:27:42 0.7sek 12:28:05 beach: get a real computer! 12:28:13 n=1000 000 12:28:25 loops till 10 000 12:28:34 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:00 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087DD9D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:29:15 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087DD9D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:30 my guess would be, that equation has infinite number of solution 12:31:17 yeah, but I dont want to find all solutions, only some of them 12:31:25 so program is working as it should. 12:31:45 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 12:31:46 thanks for your help, v. much :D 12:33:22 I'm going out. weather is too nice to sit @home. Cu later! 12:33:53 -!- MrSpec is now known as spec[away] 12:34:04 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:01 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:10 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.123] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:36:40 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 12:37:28 We're getting thunderstorms. Looks like it's time to get the kids out of bed and make pancakes. 12:37:49 -!- blackout [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has left #lisp 12:39:12 Joreji [n=thomas@41-039.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:41:40 schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3103ee2fb1b0cd2f] has joined #lisp 12:44:16 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r3a98.net.upc.cz] has quit [Success] 12:46:15 minion: memo for MrSpec: x can be computed from n and y. 12:46:16 Remembered. I'll tell MrSpec when he/she/it next speaks. 12:47:18 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 12:50:40 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@pD9E6F319.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:36 -!- fiveop_ [n=fiveop@pD9E6F319.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:55:17 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:55:19 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.101.94] has quit ["this is not a quit message"] 12:56:07 projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has joined #lisp 12:57:21 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:58:12 Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.123] has joined #lisp 12:59:09 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 12:59:20 hello 12:59:28 hello fe[nl]ix 12:59:36 hi beach 12:59:53 p0a [n=user@athedsl-384954.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 13:01:09 Hello, I've been thinking of such a macro to write: I noticed sometimes I use a hashtable and hashtables for the values of the keys of such hashtable 13:02:00 So instead of using (setf (getf 'bar (getf 'foo *db*)) 'baz) for example 13:02:38 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6BD56.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:02:41 Which seems to use more hashables than needed and makes the correct use of memory by the hashtables harder (allocation methods) 13:03:04 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:05 I could be using a macro such as (m *db* 'foo 'bar) 13:04:04 and (m *db* 'foo 'bar 'baz) to go further. Now the job of this macro would be instead of initializing multiple hashtables 13:04:18 use only one, and bar in foo would be foo_bar 13:06:04 So instead of multiple databases I'd only have to concatenate symbols. But then I'd need more methods for the hashtable because deletion is affected by this - for example, one may delete 'foo' then foo_* must also be deleted, and I just noticed there's a name clash if one creates a foo_bar key and a bar key in foo 13:07:10 okay, so I'll document that _ is a prohibited character for the symbols to contain in these functions 13:09:05 jao` [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:32 prohibition is not in the lisp vein 13:13:44 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D3BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:06 so, why not write foo_bar in the first place? 13:15:50 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit ["Heading home -- off IRC for a couple weeks."] 13:17:18 -!- jao` is now known as jao 13:18:17 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:19:16 -!- schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3103ee2fb1b0cd2f] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 13:19:18 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 13:19:33 stassats: Okay, if we assume this macro, it's purpose is to pretend there's multiple instances of hashtables when there's only one 13:19:57 p0a: what happens if you use the list (foo bar baz) as a key? 13:20:10 splittist: it works only with symbols 13:20:33 (at least that is what I'm thinking of writing) 13:20:40 p0a: what do you win by this pretence? 13:21:09 stassats: typing, if you have a lot of functions that have to do that 13:21:19 that operate on instances of hashtables in hashtables 13:21:40 what you also win is memory 13:21:52 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633642.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 13:22:00 (gethash 'foo_bar table) instead of (macro 'foo 'bar table) ? 13:22:14 nope 13:22:25 (gethash 'bar (gethash 'foo table)) 13:22:43 and it should be the other way (m table 'foo 'bar) I guess 13:22:50 so write (gethash 'foo_bar instead) ? 13:22:53 -!- mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-cef4d0d64c755b37] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 13:24:29 Well good enough argument, it makes manipulations harder though. For example, if another macro wants to use this macro with the symbols it was given, it could with the list operations. but foo_bar has to take apart a symblo 13:24:33 symbol 13:24:57 I guess I won't write this after all 13:27:24 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:28:51 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-384954.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 13:29:12 p0a: seems to me you're looking at two different things. First, a concern about how you're implementing your data type, which indicates you should abstract away access to the underlying mechanism. Second, a concern with the surface syntax of accessing the ADT - perhaps you could create a reader macro to let you use some sort of path-traversing idea: #>foo>bar>baz... 13:29:38 (Not that I would...) 13:31:34 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 13:31:44 -!- ASau` [n=user@host192-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["Off!"] 13:33:43 carbocalm [n=user@204.101.159.235] has joined #lisp 13:38:38 does every version of sbcl effectively define a new fasl format these days? 13:39:17 yes 13:39:24 ok, good. 13:43:22 bombshelter13_ [n=greg@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:34 there's a header with version number now, iirc :) 13:46:23 thorat [n=doddi@unaffiliated/thorat] has joined #lisp 13:48:56 I thought there was; I wanted to check before I go breaking things :) 13:49:10 NeonTiger [n=Tom@118-92-168-226.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:49:15 I've got balls of steel 13:50:01 -!- NeonTiger [n=Tom@118-92-168-226.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has left #lisp 13:50:05 -!- adityo [n=adityo@59.183.26.106] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:51:58 -!- ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:52:57 jayeola [n=jayeola@cpc1-lamb2-0-0-cust650.bmly.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 13:54:49 m4thias` [n=user@39.84-48-162.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:55:26 m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 13:55:39 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087DD9D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:55:39 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:55:39 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:55:39 -!- HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:55:39 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:55:39 -!- pounk [n=pounk@69-196-152-86.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:55:39 -!- m4thias [n=user@39.84-48-162.nextgentel.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:55:39 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:55:39 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:55:39 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:55:39 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:55:39 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:55:39 -!- cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:56:52 moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 13:57:52 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:53 cods [n=cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:05 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087DD9D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:30 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 13:59:01 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:59:40 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 13:59:52 timchen119 [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 14:01:17 -!- dayzman [n=mun@93-97-172-28.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:01:40 HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 14:01:42 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:44 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:02:47 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 14:04:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:08:26 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 14:08:43 matley [n=matley@193.204.39.77] has joined #lisp 14:09:05 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:10:16 pounk [n=pounk@69-196-152-86.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:36 nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:44 G'morning all. 14:10:53 hello nyef 14:11:21 Anything interesting happening? 14:11:48 dlowe [n=dlowe@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 14:11:52 I don't know, I am not following it very closesly because I am thinking about optimal redrawing. 14:11:59 Ah. Fair enough. 14:12:43 *stassats* is trying to find easy bugs in sbcl 14:12:58 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:08 stassats: Oh? 14:13:19 stassats: The ones tagged as "easy" in the tracker? 14:13:27 i was just about to say :) 14:13:47 https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bugs?field.tag=easy 14:13:48 I was thinking about just nailing a few of them if I have the time today. 14:13:56 i saw that 14:14:04 'cause a few of them really are easy-looking. 14:14:08 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47AFB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:20 i think we could use more easy bugs 14:14:21 nyef: and sbcl.dll? 14:14:24 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:14:24 minion: chant 14:14:25 MORE EASY 14:14:36 sbcl.dll is hard. 14:14:45 Well, not -hard- hard, but not easy. 14:14:58 hm, where was i with defglobal? 14:15:06 oops, post office time, bbl! 14:15:08 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:15:22 Well, I'll let you limber up with a few easy exercises (; 14:15:36 Heh. 14:16:12 I figure that just getting this bug list down a bit would be an improvement, you know? 14:19:01 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:19:07 I have a non-polished fix for the destructuring one, so I just assigned that bug to me 14:19:21 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:19:24 I'd like to see the FORMAT one, I get bitten by that regularly 14:20:03 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-158-152.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:21:12 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:21:31 vy annotated #79891 "a generic implementation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79891#8 14:22:19 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-51-230.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:22:38 tcr: That's 'cause you work in elisp too much. 14:22:48 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-89-237.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:22:50 -!- beach` is now known as beach 14:22:55 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:23:27 Perhaps, but I rarely get bitten by %foo vs ~foo 14:23:54 I get bitten by that one... In reverse. I keep trying to use ~foo in emacs. 14:24:22 Anyway, that one is fairly easy, and was one I was thinking about doing. 14:24:34 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-55-52.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:24:42 very nice 14:24:44 jdz: Check http://paste.lisp.org/display/79891#8 out. 14:25:15 jdz? 14:25:24 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-117-234.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:25:34 yeah, me? 14:25:34 it was MrSpec's problem 14:25:46 Oops! You're right. 14:25:57 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:11 Hrm... I'm a little bit late I guess. Anyway, paste is there. 14:27:02 BTW, I wish `APPLY' would operate on `SEQUENCE's, not just `LIST's. 14:27:15 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:27:16 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.132.189.132] has quit ["..."] 14:28:05 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-99-142.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:28:08 vy: you can coerce any sequence to a list 14:28:22 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-51-230.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:28:25 -!- beach`` is now known as beach 14:29:07 fe[nl]ix: Yup, but it'll need to allocate an extra space for the list, which I was trying to avoid. 14:29:18 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:29:51 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 14:30:25 Greetings. Little issue with lightening. Things should settle down now. 14:30:33 tcr: ping 14:30:52 what's up? 14:31:03 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:26 ... I have a KLUDGE to kill. As soon as I figure out why the heck genesis is using EVAL. 14:31:31 -!- sellout is now known as Guest87133 14:31:42 tmh: did you manage to turn your children into pancakes? 14:32:13 (eval (sb!vm:primitive-object-lowtag obj)) indeed. Hmpf! 14:32:23 splittist: I wasn't using them for the pancake ingredients, just as a topping. 14:32:47 nyef: haha 14:33:12 nyef: there's a comment somewhere pointing out that we could probably just symbol-value-or-self-evaluating-or-die. 14:33:42 tcr: I noticed that using #+#. inside a function body messes up the font locking. it's pretty recent, I think 14:33:59 pkhuong: Really? Missed that one. I did like the comment in room.lisp about threads, though. 14:34:49 fe[nl]ix: Yeah I made that more reliably. I didn't think of #+#. and haven't tested that. Where do you see such misfontification? 14:35:15 tcr: cffi/src/cffi-sbcl.lisp 14:35:15 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:36:03 tcr: in %close-foreign-library 14:37:08 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 14:37:24 Alright, thanks. 14:37:27 i have fontification issue in sbcl/contrib/sb-md5/md5.lisp after `finalize-md5-state' 14:37:51 I'll look into these. 14:38:50 because of docstring, i think 14:38:58 I want to move the primitive-object definitions for BINDING, UNWIND-BLOCK, CATCH-BLOCK and THREAD to a new file, probably "nonheap-objdef", to be loaded before target/vm. 14:39:07 stassats: that's because the docstring has an #\( at the beginning of a line 14:39:13 -!- jayeola [n=jayeola@cpc1-lamb2-0-0-cust650.bmly.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["leaving"] 14:40:14 roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:29 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:40:30 Actually, I can probably do that now, without fixing the other kludge... Hrm. 14:41:51 is it ok to use check-type inside serve-event ? 14:43:25 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-117-234.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:45:25 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 14:46:27 fe[nl]ix: So long as you're prepared for it to fail and end up in the debugger... which uses serve-event. 14:46:53 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483C110.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:05 -!- drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-5.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:47:19 nyef: it's for https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/316068 14:47:55 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 14:47:57 nyef: that's not a problem in this case, I think 14:48:52 unless ending up in the debugger will cause another FD larger than FD_SETSIZE to be created 14:49:13 If I recall the contract for select(2) properly, FD_SETSIZE is more of a guideline than anything else, and if you dynamically allocate the sets to fit you can avoid the problem entirely. 14:50:15 nyef: only of you don't use the standard FD_* macros 14:50:34 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 14:50:35 which being macros, use the FD_SETSIZE known at compile time 14:50:38 ... Not the case, AFAIK. It's not like they typecheck. 14:50:43 Or bounds-check. 14:51:37 tcr: (cons NIL (cons NIL NULL)) doesn't seem like a very useful type. 14:52:02 younder [n=jthing@084202159110.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 14:52:09 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:52:18 Okay, the one for clearing all the fds in a set, yes, but the ones for manipulating a single FD bit in the set should still be usable. 14:52:22 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483C110.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:52:25 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483C110.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:29 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:22 *splittist* always thought ,. was dropped in ANSI... 14:53:36 pkhuong: Context? 14:54:13 sorry, the d-bind ticket in launchpad. 14:54:28 yes that deftype is screwed 14:54:48 pkhuong: Erm no you're wrong 14:54:53 Heh. A cons which can't have anything in its CAR and which has a CDR that can only contain a NIL in its CDR and nothing in its CAR. Indeed, not very useful sounding. 14:55:01 pkhuong: in deftype lambda list &optionals default to * not to nil 14:55:13 ah good. 14:56:36 -!- lichtblau [n=user@wallstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:56:53 p0a [n=user@athedsl-384954.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:57:11 stassats: I came up with a reason if you're interested -- it is just one of the macros that are going to operate on the hash tables 14:57:40 because, if you delete foo_bar, you'd expect foo_bar_* to be deleted as well (pretends to deallocate a hashtable) 14:58:25 So, there's more macros that need to be build to remove, insert perhaps, et cetera. That justifies writing the aforementioned macro instead of (gethash 'foo_bar *db*) 14:58:28 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87.194.5.99] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:59:11 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 14:59:24 then you need to maintain the list of childs 14:59:43 "childs"? 14:59:55 ok, chidren 14:59:55 foo_bar is a child of foo 15:00:01 (the bar part) 15:00:17 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:00:24 Ah, sorry you were referring to incorrect use of plural child 15:01:14 damn english, it's even worse than NTH vs. ELT 15:01:36 stassats: then I think I have interest to write this function again, but I'd also rather to get rid of the _ limitation, anything for that? 15:01:39 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 15:01:46 My idea was that each key that pretends to be a hashtable also keeps a (gensym) somewhere 15:01:54 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 15:01:57 so all children have that gensym appended to the name 15:02:15 (It can still clash though...) 15:02:54 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-384954.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 15:03:03 p0a: if you're building trees, then you could use a tree library 15:03:03 ... Why doesn't each key that pretends to be a hashtable actually have a hashtable as its value? 15:03:39 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.49.203] has joined #lisp 15:04:30 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D3BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:06:00 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181149179.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:06:10 Hello nikodemus. 15:06:30 nyef: I think you're correct. raising the value of fd-setsize to 16K should be enough 15:06:53 -!- philipp [n=pbenner@ini-firewall.unizh.ch] has quit ["leaving"] 15:06:58 ouch, Harlequin did law enforcement software.. 15:07:27 dwave_ [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 15:08:08 chi_square [n=kye@bas1-montreal42-1177928424.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:08:15 fe[nl]ix: That's... not where I was going with that. I was trying to argue for a dynamic-sized fd-set. That way even if you get more than N FDs you can still use serve-event on them (for N equal to fd-setsize). 15:08:24 deepfire: and Allegro tracks all your phonecalls and emails (: 15:09:29 willb [n=wibenton@wireless107.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:09:53 -!- cracki [n=cracki@40-157.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 15:10:33 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 15:10:47 Wikipedia says Xanalys with LispWorks went to Tiburon, of CompuDyne, which does law enforcement -related stuff now. 15:11:40 -!- scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:14:48 hoy 15:15:31 and here in UK they are going to need really fast systems and databases to do the amount of deep surveillance they want... :P 15:15:34 so, should the docs suggest a naming convention for defglobals, or should we wait and see what people come up with? 15:16:07 I'd wait and see. 15:16:15 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 15:16:16 and even if we don't suggest anything, what kind of convention should we use internally? 15:16:45 Unless we use them internally, and then we should consider suggesting whatever convention we use there. 15:16:52 hah 15:16:53 I'd use +foo+ 15:17:01 no, that's a constant 15:17:21 i want (setf +foo+ ...) to ring big alarm bells 15:17:24 Can globals be shadowed lexically normally? 15:17:29 I'd think of it as something not expected to change, not a constant. 15:17:29 no 15:17:47 why not? 15:17:47 Using % is out, because that's more of an "internal thing" flag... 15:17:53 $foo 15:17:55 .foo. 15:18:03 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 15:18:03 =foo= 15:18:04 .foo. is out, at least for SBCL. 15:18:13 @foo@ 15:18:22 Right, .foo. is used in PCL, isn't it? 15:18:28 cliki mentions /foo/ 15:18:37 Heh. And they call *foo* earmuffs? 15:19:12 how about *foo 15:19:19 dlowe: looks like a typo 15:19:25 *foo+ or +foo* ? 15:19:25 @foo@ looks like earrings. 15:19:26 would annoy Xach's automatic highlighting of variables 15:19:48 ~foo~ 15:20:00 ~ is reserved for implementation as a macro character 15:20:09 I want to suggest #foo# just for the laughs 15:20:12 _foo_ 15:20:21 \foo/ 15:20:22 {foo} 15:20:30 foo ? 15:20:31 }foo{ 15:20:33 like, for instance, \o/ 15:20:37 I'm not sure how I'd use a defglobal anyway, but I don't do much multithreaded coding 15:20:39 foo might be it :) 15:20:42 *tmh* likes =foo= , not necessarily for defglobals, just for how it is highlighted. 15:21:09 *foo+ makes most sense to me 15:21:15 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 15:21:18 (defglobal =^_^= "it's a kitty!") 15:21:20 ^o^ 15:21:21 it's ugly, though 15:21:22 aside from locks, at least the various ?data-vector-setters? are natural globals in sbcl 15:21:35 ;foo might be best (; 15:21:49 >foo< 15:21:59 how about global-foo? 15:22:06 15:22:08 no way 15:22:11 -->foo<-- for more visibility 15:22:12 **foo** 15:22:18 nikodemus: Interferes with xml-mixed-mode, doesn't it? 15:22:23 oh that's good one nikodemus 15:22:25 -!- thorat [n=doddi@unaffiliated/thorat] has quit [] 15:22:36 yup 15:22:44 foo 15:22:49 hah 15:22:53 ** is ^ 15:22:53 I think most of you are missing the obvious: foo 15:23:05 or -foo- 15:23:07 lovely! 15:23:10 that's a char I don't have 15:23:10 Xof: I think I'm missing that key on my keyboard. 15:23:18 --foo-- 15:23:36 that's OK; you can copy and paste from this IRC transcript every time you need a global 15:23:36 *foo-- for maximum confusion 15:23:40 So many ways to wrap a symbol. 15:23:41 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.123] has quit ["leaving"] 15:24:15 ah, #\TWO_ASTERISKS_ALIGNED_VERTICALLY 15:24:20 -!- matley [n=matley@193.204.39.77] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:24:31 you guys need better fonts as well as better keyboards 15:25:08 ok, **foo** it is for now. easy enough to change when someone gets a better idea 15:25:11 Hrm. I'm already considering prying up and reordering the keycaps on my laptop, what's a good way to add new symbols to them? 15:25:22 What's the point, if McCLIM still doesn't do XKB.. 15:25:44 *nyef* still doesn't do McCLIM, so that's not a worry. 15:26:31 nyef: how were you going to swap the [] and () anyway? 15:26:59 Figured I'd load a new keyboard layout to the kernel or something. 15:27:21 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:27:38 I don't use the console often, but it'd be nice if the keyboard still worked when I do. 15:28:29 *froydnj* is finding OAOO'ing trap numbers to be a rathole 15:29:34 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 15:31:26 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:33:28 cornucopic [n=r00t@115.241.79.193] has joined #lisp 15:33:43 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:34:15 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:59 mjf [n=mjf@r3a98.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 15:36:03 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@159-110.0-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Still periodically want a symbolics keyboard..."] 15:36:33 ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.101.94] has joined #lisp 15:36:36 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:40:30 -!- Guest87133 is now known as sellout 15:45:48 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.139.223] has joined #lisp 15:47:41 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:31 apexnexus [n=apexnexu@ool-4b7fc95a.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:00 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 15:50:15 stassats: I wonder whether I should really "fix" that one. 15:51:10 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:52:35 Hi, i'm new to AI languages, can anyone tell me what are the practical advantages vs disadvantages using LISP vs PROLOG for natural language applications? From what I've found so far on the web was that LISP is extrememly wide spread in US due to it's roots at MIT and dept of defense fundings in order to model large scale battlefields, but in Europe and especially in Japan - prolog is much more popular as a tool for AI, robotics, etc.. 15:52:58 I thought natural language stuff was done in C these days? 15:53:21 apexnexus: We write it Lisp, and it's a general-purpose language. 15:53:58 (In C, with an input data format that looks like sexprs, complete with keywords, but using braces instead of parens. WTF?) 15:54:04 the best open source project (in lisp) that I came across so far is http://www.purl.org/net/kpml 15:54:33 i dont think development time wise it's a feasable task to accomplish it in C 15:55:07 minion: langutils? 15:55:08 langutils: langutils is a Common Lisp Natural Language Processing Library which provides a set of functions related to the structured analysis and processing of open English text, written by Ian Eslick and based in part on Python code from Hugo Liu. http://www.cliki.net/langutils 15:55:49 mega1: thanks - very interesting 15:56:16 mega1: do you know if it works with text per sentence or as a whole? 15:57:05 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:57:46 i came across simplenlg for java - but it only allows you to construct a sentence - which makes it a realiser rathan than a real NLG 15:58:00 is langutils similar to simplenlg? 15:58:35 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.101.94] has quit ["this is not a quit message"] 15:58:39 langutils can break text into sentences, dunno how good it is 15:58:45 is there anything that's open-source thats similar to "realpro"? 15:59:06 dunno what that is 15:59:24 RealPro is a text generation "engine" that performs syntactic realization — i.e., the transformation of abstract syntactic specifications of natural language sentences (or phrases) into their corresponding surface forms. It supports multiple languages and levels of linguistic representation, with performance suitable for real-world applications. 15:59:39 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 16:00:15 RealPro provides a grammar rule engine that can generate text from sophisticated, multi-level linguistic representations. The abstraction it provides makes it easy to generate many syntactic variants of the same semantic content on demand — unlike with template-based approaches, where the combinatorics of generating multiple syntactic variants quickly becomes unmanageable. 16:00:25 apexnexus: Have you considered looking at the GENESIS-II system from MIT's Spoken Language Systems Group? 16:00:51 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 16:01:05 nyef: no i haven't researched it yet, thanks I'll look into as well 16:01:43 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r3a98.net.upc.cz] has quit [Success] 16:02:23 pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has joined #lisp 16:03:14 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 16:03:43 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:49 -!- dwave_ [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit ["Be back later"] 16:05:56 apexnexus: what kind of software are you planning to write? 16:05:58 mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d110f0e43ca4ac01] has joined #lisp 16:06:35 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:06:44 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 16:07:50 WEee 16:08:13 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:08:17 beach: the goal is to process large knowledge bases, summarize content, output it in natural language - in a concise form (but the most important to link together facts across multiple sources) 16:09:57 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:10:46 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:10:53 apexnexus: I'd like to see that used to process quarterly and yearly SEC reports. The tough part is reading and understanding all of the footnotes and caveats, then integrating those back into the overall understanding of the corporation's financials. 16:12:06 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:14:32 minion: memo for fe[n]lix: Committed fix for the fontification issue on #+#.foo. 16:14:32 Remembered. I'll tell fe[n]lix when he/she/it next speaks. 16:16:42 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:17:39 tmh: NLU seems to be much more successful in it's implementation than NLG, that's why I'm focused on NLG portion 16:19:03 apexnexus: How lare are the knowledge bases? 16:19:07 *large 16:19:14 tmh: I've looked at various demo engines that attempt to output coherent text and it's just not natural at all 16:20:22 beach: helpdesk, technical manuals 16:20:33 dwave_ [n=ask@084202074230.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 16:20:35 that sounds like a really hard problem 16:20:38 apexnexus: in MBytes 16:20:41 c|mell [n=cmell@x250005.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 16:21:04 apexnexus: This is an area I know nothing about. I'm just aware of the difficulty in automagically process corporations financial statements. Your research looks very interesting, though. Good Luck. 16:21:17 beach: compressed SQL db today is 200MB each we have about 7 - uncompressed 2gb each 16:21:35 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:21:56 To start with, I would probably consider storing the entire base in main memory. 16:22:35 beach: with NLU we can define domain, main categories, etc... and break the data down into as many smaller components as possible 16:23:16 apexnexus: What are the implications of that? 16:23:24 beach: even summarizing each one to a certain degree, but to create a final human readable report based on those "facts" is close to impossible right now 16:23:25 tcr: you mean ( in docstrings? 16:23:53 beach: it reads as a bunch of unrelated strings 16:24:11 beach: and each one is grammatically correct 16:24:45 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:24:45 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [] 16:25:25 in any strings, even 16:25:34 beach: the most complicated part is to join it in a natural form using a common contextual theme 16:26:33 mega1: have you seen any open-source research in that direction? 16:26:46 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:54 apexnexus: I'd love to have something, but no. 16:27:20 stassats: Yeah 16:27:27 Has there been any research done on computer proofreading and editing of natural language text, or human directed computer revision of natural language text? 16:27:31 mega1: :( 16:27:45 stassats: They also confuse paredit, so people should really not insert dangling parentheses in strings 16:27:48 apexnexus: to me the joining of independent sources sounds the most difficult 16:28:06 nyef: recaptcha? 16:28:36 i guess, they confuse emacs in the first place 16:28:46 mega1: absolutely, cant get past joining 2 sentences together reliably 16:29:01 drewc: Seriously? 16:29:35 nyef: realpro is a commercial product that may be able to do it 16:30:36 I lost about all faith in traditional nlp. 16:30:41 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 16:30:59 these rule-based, expert tuning hungry monsters are a dead end. 16:31:24 mega1: have you ever tried prolog as a dev tool? 16:31:30 no 16:32:01 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 16:32:45 based on what i've seen so far - it seems to be more natural to use logic and all the possible constrains via prolog than lisp, but i cant find anything that was done in prolog on the web 16:33:05 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:33:29 according to wiki "While initially aimed at natural language processing, the language has since then stretched far into other areas like theorem proving, expert systems, games, automated answering systems, ontologies and sophisticated control systems, and modern Prolog environments support the creation of graphical user interfaces, as well as administrative and networked applications" 16:33:44 apexnexus: That's probably because in order to get non-exponential behavior in Prolog, you sort of have to use it as a general-purpose language, and then you lose most advantages of it, and you might as well use a different one. 16:33:46 regardless of the language used, there is a lot of work involved in rule-based systems 16:34:09 and they are very fragile. 16:34:20 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:55 mega1: those NLP projects that you've seen are those open-source? any examples? 16:35:47 I have no background in AI other than casual reading. I only recently learned that it was historically rule-based. What is the focus of current AI? 16:36:27 statistics is the impression I get. 16:36:28 I'd say "deep learning". But that's only what strikes me as less dead-endish than the rest. 16:36:52 statistic is behind almost every approach these days. 16:37:42 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:37:59 -!- mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d110f0e43ca4ac01] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:38:06 tmh: i would say robotics - take a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmIf-slNEC8 16:38:35 tmh: i'm wandering what kind of dev tools they've used for that project 16:39:02 mega1: "deep learning"? 16:39:04 robotics is boring 16:39:04 tmh: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbFFs4DHWys&feature=related 16:39:24 Japanese robotics research can be down-right creepy. 16:39:31 they concentrate on the flashy stuff while other people try to solve the hard problems with learning. 16:39:39 I think this is pretty impressive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1czBcnX1Ww 16:39:40 mega1: take a look at the progress 16:39:52 ("big dog") 16:40:01 haha big dog 16:40:03 joga: yeah that's a great example 16:40:13 joga: first time i saw it i though it was a donkey 16:40:15 I prefer the video of the two guys in the big dog suit :) 16:40:28 apexnexus, I think that's really creepy ;) 16:40:34 joga: that thing is so well balanced 16:40:45 joga: especially the ice scene 16:40:55 yup, neat stuff, looks so alive :) 16:42:17 nyef: http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~lisa/twiki/bin/view.cgi/Public/DeepLearningWorkshopNIPS2007 , http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~hinton/ 16:42:21 oh well, more advanced versions will probably be hunting us down some day so maybe I shouldn't get too excited ;) 16:42:34 mega1: Thank you. 16:42:50 (Yay, more reading!) 16:43:14 a prominent example is hinton's boltzmann machine 16:43:32 the deep belief network (a stack of rbms) 16:43:39 and the deep boltzmann machine. 16:43:55 rbms? 16:44:10 "restricted boltzmann machines" 16:44:15 minion: mgl? 16:44:16 mgl: MGL is an AI, ahem, machine learning library focusing on Restricted Boltzmann Machines (RBM) and their stacks called Deep Belief Networks (DBN). http://www.cliki.net/mgl 16:44:29 mega1: thanks. i'll take a look 16:45:17 implementing deep boltzman machines would be next 16:45:20 if I could find the time. 16:45:57 but plugs aside, addressing learning at the fundamental is what's interesting to me 16:46:46 robotics is applied science 16:48:18 What I'd like to see from AI research is a computer that would do the tedious work of generating models and performing analysis based on my conceptual inputs. 16:48:38 Reducing the results into a form that I specified. 16:48:52 what kind of models? 16:49:08 evolutionary algorithms come into mind 16:49:26 probably mimicking some already known patterns, perhaps 16:49:34 tmh: take a look at rapidminer - it's an open-source project 16:50:15 Physical models of aircraft, wind turbines, spacecraft, etc. So much time is wasted creating input and reducing output. We haven't even scratched the surface of what could be done with true computer aided engineering. All we have is computer aided drafting. 16:50:17 -!- chi_square [n=kye@bas1-montreal42-1177928424.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:50:17 I interviewed for a company who use rapidminer. 16:50:37 they made me do a long exercise in it. 16:50:47 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:05 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 16:51:10 theunixgeek [n=patrick@201.53.244.231] has joined #lisp 16:51:23 it has two faces: a point-and-click development one 16:51:33 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 16:51:41 which drove me crazy and a java api. 16:51:52 What are the main differences between "common" Lisp and Scheme? 16:51:53 The latter was simply depressing. 16:52:09 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 16:52:18 theunixgeek: Scheme minimalistic 16:52:24 "common"? 16:52:25 theunixgeek: Scheme is a Lisp1 and Common Lisp is a Lisp2? I think that is a major difference. 16:52:43 Lisp1 meaning only one namespace 16:52:48 ah ok 16:52:51 uh oh, it's just a little detail 16:52:54 and Lisp2 means multiple namespaces? 16:52:59 I thought that the main difference was that Scheme was for if you wanted to deploy your programs elsewhere, and CL was for if you wanted to write real programs. 16:53:04 stassats: if you want to elaborate, please do :) 16:53:04 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 16:53:48 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:54:10 lisp1 vs. lisp2 is reflected only in syntax, not very big difference 16:54:16 lisp-2 means separate namespaces for functions and regular variables 16:54:26 sykopomp: ah, ok 16:54:33 which one is more recommended? why? 16:54:45 the arguments have still not ended 16:54:48 i'd say. CLOS vs. no-CLOS is much more noticeable difference 16:54:53 in my opinion, it comes down to a matter of taste. 16:55:16 sykopomp: ah, I see 16:55:18 theunixgeek: The best answer to which one is recommended is that only you can answer that question for yourself. 16:55:28 common lisp is the howl's moving castle of programming languages 16:55:41 scheme is something else i'm not completely sure yet 16:55:59 Hygienic macros? Is that a big difference? 16:56:25 ok, I'll do a bit more research on the differences; thanks 16:56:37 Can we say that scheme lacks a properly-abusable macro system? 16:56:49 No. 16:56:53 there's a good comparison online somewhere 16:57:01 theunixgeek: On the scheme side, I recommend using PLT scheme to get started. 16:57:30 well, which is more widely used, Common Lisp or Scheme? 16:57:48 on the other hand, almost all scheme implementation includes its own object system, cl-like macros, etc. 16:58:01 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:58:05 theunixgeek: Neither are used widely enough to worry about that. 16:58:12 ok 16:58:43 theunixgeek: the obvious difference is that functions are treated specially. This has three big effects: 1. You have to treat defunned functions specially when calling them and passing them around, 2. You actually have a syntactical marker saying "this is a function variable", 3. You can have a function and a regular value as the value for a single symbol (so list and list can both exist in a single environment. One is the function, one 16:58:43 is a variable) 16:58:52 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:59:04 theunixgeek: You're a unix geek and you're worried about widely used? Then why aren't you a Windows geek? ;~) 16:59:16 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@115.241.79.193] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:59:43 tmh: in the Unix world, more widely-used programming languages tend to have a more mature community (at least from my experience) 16:59:50 what your opinion about those 3 is pretty subjective. Some people think the syntactic marker is useful, and that being able to call their lists 'list' is nice. Others prefer how compact certain expressions are. 16:59:52 ymmv 17:00:07 lisp's non-existent community is quite mature 17:00:18 tmh: common lisp is much more widely-used than some people realize. 17:00:35 lisp's non-existent community could possibly qualify for retirement benefits. 17:00:56 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-40.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:01:40 *sykopomp* still isn't entirely convinced that 'there is no lisp community', but likes the meme. 17:02:32 a community denying its own existence :) 17:02:35 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-177-99-140.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:02:48 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-177-99-140.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:14 there is no spoon. 17:03:17 There's a hell of a lot more of a "lisp community" than a "C++ community," say 17:03:40 dlowe: that's an artifact of being small enough for us to actually know almost everybody involved. :) 17:03:50 this is the #lisp community. #lisp is not the lisp community. 17:03:54 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ab6608fab10c4eb6] has joined #lisp 17:04:13 jokes should come with an unwind-protect. 17:04:40 Fade: including yours. 17:04:46 especially mine. 17:05:01 that one made my day :) 17:05:14 implicit unwind-protect 17:05:29 stassats: What are the implicit cleanup forms, though? 17:05:54 (laugh) 17:05:59 theunixgeek: you know you're in a lisp channel asking if lisp or scheme is better ... 17:06:00 -!- apexnexus [n=apexnexu@ool-4b7fc95a.static.optonline.net] has quit [] 17:06:24 drewc: good point :P 17:06:29 everybody knows that cobol is better. move along. 17:06:40 Object-oriented cobol? 17:06:44 I thought scheme was lisp? 17:06:53 *nyef* got a bit of a crash course in RPG IV recently. 17:06:55 Or was lisp a scheme? 17:06:59 tmh: no, scheme is scheme. 17:07:03 -!- projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has left #lisp 17:07:03 tmh: scheme is scheme 17:07:28 Fade: it certainly gets you a better job than common lisp (or any other language, for that matter) ever will. 17:07:35 Yes, lisp is a scheme. It's a scheme to milk the government for grant money ostensibly for AI research. 17:07:38 this is merely a scheme to deny the existence of the lisp community 17:07:56 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-177-99-140.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:07:57 sykopomp: indeed 17:08:00 nyef: true 17:08:08 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-177-99-140.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:18 nyef: i have used OO Cobol. Shudder. 17:08:40 Hypertalk was kind of an OO Cobol 17:08:53 Hrm. (unsigned-byte 21) => dies. (unsigned-byte 30) => dies. (unsigned-byte 31) => works. (upgraded-array-element-type '(unsigned-byte 21)) => (unsigned-byte 31). (wtf-p *this*) => T. 17:09:15 Hypertalk was kind of cool. I wish we still had something like it these days. 17:09:30 that was the language from hypercard? 17:09:31 nyef: wtfp* 17:09:33 nyef: It still exists. There's a product called Revolution 17:09:56 which sadly is almost impossible to search for :p 17:10:04 sykopomp: would you accept w-t-f-p ? :D 17:10:13 sykopomp: wtf is three words, therefore -p, not p. 17:10:24 nyef: that does look kind of odd. 17:10:46 nyef: http://www.runrev.com/ 17:10:55 I guess one question would be is if it's specific to the cross-build. 17:11:27 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:11:32 was hypertalk originally an apple product? 17:11:39 -!- theunixgeek [n=patrick@201.53.244.231] has left #lisp 17:11:53 Fade: it was. 17:11:55 Fade: HyperCard was, yes. 17:12:03 HyperTalk almost didn't end up in the first version. 17:12:15 nyef: but it's 3 letters together, no dashes 17:12:20 "the unique english-like language ..." 17:12:26 drewc: perhaps, but it would need to expand like m-v-b 17:13:15 Okay, let's just steal the scheme convention and call it "wtf?" instead. 17:13:17 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 17:13:19 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.227.1] has joined #lisp 17:13:48 have question marks in atoms been stigmatised? 17:13:50 damn X 17:13:52 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:13:56 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.227.1] has quit [Client Quit] 17:14:05 (stig? atom) 17:14:12 nyef: only if you patch defstruct to follow that convention, and write aliases for all the builtin predicates. 17:14:15 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.227.1] has joined #lisp 17:14:17 then it would be acceptable, I think. 17:14:50 *nyef* points out that defstruct doesn't contain a special rule for non-hyphenated structure names when generating the predicate function name. It's always -p. 17:15:08 *sykopomp* did notice that. 17:15:27 but is wtf a struct? 17:15:33 defstruct has a pretty horrible name generation scheme anyway. type-field isn't a very good accessor name 17:15:46 Can we not get into that again, please? 17:17:11 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:17:47 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:18:31 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.36] has joined #lisp 17:22:14 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:22:25 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 17:22:25 kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:23:00 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:23:52 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:26:50 theunixgeek [n=patrick@201.53.244.231] has joined #lisp 17:27:06 I tried to (define pi 3.14159) and got this error: http://rafb.net/p/37MElX53.html 17:27:36 well, it's not scheme 17:27:42 Sounds like a schemer-using-lisp problem. 17:27:51 (defvar *pi* pi) 17:27:51 theunixgeek: are you trying to use Scheme syntax in CL? 17:28:17 so the syntax differs greatly, I see 17:28:20 pi is already defined in cl. 17:28:28 I'm following ISCP 17:28:38 I guess I should have noted it uses Scheme 17:28:41 Fade: i'd use CL only because of this 17:28:47 Interpreataion of the Structure of Computer Programs 17:28:54 theunixgeek: What is ISCP? 17:29:02 SICP ? 17:29:04 * SICP 17:29:06 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-55-52.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["« La POO c'est bien beau, mais en C au moins on va droit au but. »"] 17:29:08 http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-10.html#%_sec_1.1 17:29:09 minion: sicp 17:29:10 sicp: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available gratis from (HTML), (texinfo) and (XHTML, PDF). Accompanying video lectures are available gratis at 17:29:33 theunixgeek: That book uses Scheme. And you seem to be using a Common Lisp system. 17:29:51 beach: yeah, I'm using clisp, I think 17:30:08 theunixgeek: you'll get better mileage with drscheme 17:30:15 also, #scheme 17:30:16 that twb.ath.cx link is dead 17:30:16 theunixgeek: I recommend either using a Scheme system, or using a different book. 17:30:28 theunixgeek: Well, you can always try writing down PAIP scheme compiler... :P 17:30:35 Fade: thanks 17:30:41 you _can_ use CL for SICP, but you need to know both Scheme and CL in the first place 17:30:42 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 17:30:59 I think I'll learn Scheme first before Common Lisp 17:31:06 thanks for your help :) 17:31:11 theunixgeek: I recommend using DrScheme for SICP, then when you want to try CL, get one of the very good books. I recommend PCL for someone who did programming before :-) 17:31:20 theunixgeek: I think that might be the wrong decision though. 17:31:35 beach: how come? 17:31:36 beach: you are biased! 17:31:51 stassats: Not really, I used to be a Schemer 17:31:57 p_l: by "PCL" do you mean http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ ? 17:32:11 minion: pcl 17:32:12 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 17:32:24 theunixgeek: Because I have tried both, and I was a convinced Schemer for many years (decades even) until I saw the light. 17:32:45 beach: interesting; I'll take it into consideration 17:32:56 beach: Are you sure that's not "before you fell to the dark side"? 17:33:00 theunixgeek: I doubt it, but thanks for the recognition. 17:33:12 nyef: quite sure, yes, thank you very much. 17:33:31 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9828.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 17:34:05 theunixgeek: But it would be interesting to me to understand the reasons for that particular choice of yours. 17:34:21 beach: at the moment, ease of access to a book 17:34:36 I don't have enough spare money to purchase practical common lisp at the moment 17:34:51 theunixgeek: so the fact that PCL is free on-line might change that? 17:34:53 theunixgeek: Hence the free online copy. 17:34:54 while I have no real interest in which lisp you choose to learn, PCL is available free on the net. 17:34:55 theunixgeek: it is on th'interwebs 17:35:14 hmm, 4 answers 17:35:20 beach: oh, it is? I'll check it out :) 17:35:30 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.194.81] has joined #lisp 17:35:39 ah, so it is! 17:36:09 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:32 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-30-194.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:37:38 beach: what convinced you to abandon scheme? 17:38:36 theunixgeek: there is a nice formated texinfo sicp version converted to PDF: http://web.archive.org/web/20040626000225/http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~bmastenb/misc/sicp.pdf 17:38:43 theunixgeek: The language is too small for real work, and then you have to pick an implementation in order to get a workable superset, but then you run the risk of that implementation being abandoned, which happened to me at least twice. 17:38:54 theunixgeek: If you're going to be persistent, I'll just come out and say it. Geeks that use Common Lisp get all the girlz. 17:39:15 theunixgeek: Plus, I ended up writing my own X11 interface and object-oriented extensions, etc. I just don't have time for that anymore. 17:39:23 both reasons convince me ;) 17:39:51 (by the way, all my questions are part of my research on deciding whether I should dive into lisp, prolog, smalltalk, or ocaml next) 17:40:16 beach: by "X11 interface," do you mean a graphical development environment? 17:40:33 theunixgeek: what's your current background? 17:40:34 i'd choose lisp, but hey, i'm really biased 17:40:39 theunixgeek: I think you will find that #lisp is very helpful, so if Common Lisp is what you decide on, you will have great help here. 17:40:44 C, Objective-C, C++, and a bit of Python and C# 17:41:15 *tmh* marvels at the number of C's in that answer. 17:41:17 theunixgeek: At the time, it was more a matter of just being able to write an application with a GUI. 17:41:28 beach: I see 17:42:22 'course, beach loves clim, so he's suspect. ;) 17:42:23 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:42:39 theunixgeek: At least for Common Lisp, you have CLX for that, and we have a fantastic object-oriented system called CLOS. 17:42:46 willb1 [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 17:43:05 beach: would I be able to access CLOS from my clisp installation? 17:43:12 Even if some people are still CLOStrophobic. 17:43:21 ba-da-bump 17:43:23 theunixgeek: yes 17:43:26 theunixgeek: Yes, CLOS is part of the Common Lisp standard. 17:43:27 though don't use clisp :P 17:43:36 rsynnott: slime, then? 17:43:58 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:44:00 Edward__ [i=Ed@90.3.174.52] has joined #lisp 17:44:06 slime is an interface to lisp that sits on top of one of several common lisp implementations. 17:44:09 slime isn't a common lisp implementations 17:44:17 s/s$// 17:44:20 theunixgeek: SLIME is pretty much orthogonal to the Common Lisp implementation you choose, but most people here probably use SBCL. 17:44:32 you could use slime with clisp, but sbcl is the implementation of preference around here. 17:44:34 ok, I'll install it 17:45:11 theunixgeek: investigate clbuild 17:45:21 Fade: is that a compiler? 17:45:26 minion: clbuild? 17:45:27 clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 17:45:38 ok 17:45:40 it's a utility that manages a lisp image and ancillary libraries. 17:45:49 sbcl is a compiler, amongst other things, as is clisp 17:46:02 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@41-039.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:46:16 so given a .lisp file, could I run sbcl myprogram.lisp? 17:46:23 although I dunno if it runs on windows, but judging by your handle, i'm thinking that won't matter. 17:46:29 you could 17:46:35 theunixgeek: That's not how we do things usually. 17:46:46 no compilation? just scripting? 17:46:54 theunixgeek: ? 17:46:58 sbcl compiles everything... 17:47:18 theunixgeek: think of a compiler running in the same process as your program 17:47:22 unless you turn on the interpretter, which no-one does 17:47:35 theunixgeek: I do emacs, then M-x slime, then I develop interactively. 17:47:42 no emphasis on batch processing, more interactive development 17:48:05 theunixgeek: usually I do C-x 3, and have one half with SLIME and the other half with my Lisp source code. 17:48:15 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.49.203] has quit [] 17:48:45 *stassats* does C-x 2 17:48:59 stassats: it wastes too many pixels. 17:49:10 *dlowe* does C-x 3, then C-x 2 17:49:22 my screen isn't big and i like big fonts 17:49:22 stassats: unless you have a low-res screen of course. 17:49:35 Uhm, I'd advise to use frames rather than vertically split windows 17:49:43 *beach* has two 1600x1200 monitors. 17:49:54 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:49:56 i have only 69 chars in C-x 3 17:50:29 stassats: you need better monitors, or glasses. 17:50:57 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9828.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:00 it's a laptop 17:51:27 stassats: You develop on a laptop? That sucks! 17:51:29 yeah.... 1280x800 in 15'4" sucks 17:51:47 deliana [n=deliana@ABordeaux-158-1-99-142.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:51:51 1920x1200 in 15,4" is quite good res... 17:51:52 beach: i like to lie on the couch 17:52:23 hello deliana 17:52:31 hi 17:52:31 *tsuru* votes for new frames and C-x 5 o on a laptop 17:52:35 *nyef* has 1280x800 on both his laptops, and wouldn't mind better. 17:53:01 *stassats* tried 1920x1080 on 32", not liked 17:53:06 *p_l* also has to develop on a laptop, cause his only desktop a) doesn't run SBCL b) has text terminal as only display (a VT510) 17:53:25 !! 17:53:26 stassats: yeah, the 1080 just isn't enough. 17:53:32 and c) is back in home while I'm in dorm 17:54:09 Hrm. Okay, the difference between (unsigned-byte 21) and (unsigned-byte 31), according to the trace file, is exactly that. It only affects a literal parameter to make-arary in a top-level form. 17:54:13 i find laptops too confining in general, but have been admiring the new 17" macbook pro. 17:54:24 and i need a comfortable armchair for working on desktop 17:54:36 from a hardware perspective at least. 17:55:18 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:21 A laptop, a side table, and a recliner make an excellent development environment 17:55:24 Jabberwockey [n=jens@84.46.38.138] has joined #lisp 17:55:49 i have an aeron chair that i've grown v.fond of. 17:56:27 Now, why would a make-array with an element-type that needs upgrading and initial-contents break during tlf-processing in cold-init? 17:56:37 nikodemus pasted "if you *really* want, you can pretent SBCL is a cc-style compiler -- it's just silly to do so, but hey..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79908 17:57:11 how do I quit out of sbcl? :P 17:57:11 nikodemus: don't you need the cfasl capability to do so with multi-file systems? 17:57:18 theunixgeek: (quit) 17:57:25 thanks 17:57:52 dlowe: Not if you design your files right. 17:58:13 dlowe: i didn't say anything about linking -- but if you just load everything, it works. it's when you try to separate compilation that you run into trouble 17:58:16 theunixgeek: under SLIME, hit ',' then 's' :) 17:58:42 p_l: I'm not using that right now, but thanks for the tip :) 17:58:45 well, "can run into trouble" 17:59:52 -rwxr-xr-x 1 fade fade 40595472 2009-05-08 13:59 hello* 17:59:56 lol 18:00:20 theunixgeek: You really want to use SBCL through SLIME. 18:00:30 beach: why? 18:00:38 because it's great 18:00:46 *rsynnott* doesn't bother having a desktop 18:00:55 theunixgeek: check out marco berringer's slime.mov 18:00:57 theunixgeek: Because that's how you can become really productive. 18:01:05 ok 18:01:20 theunixgeek: Yeah, what Fade said. 18:01:20 theunixgeek: because not even sbcl developers use it without slime 18:01:45 sbcl's inbuilt repl is quite primitive. 18:01:49 slime is awesome. 18:01:51 not using slime is not hardcore. it's just silly 18:01:55 *nyef* occasionally uses SBCL without slime, but it's rare. 18:02:10 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:02:15 *rsynnott* is terribly suspicious of anything that calls itself hardcore 18:02:17 (Well, not so rare, but rare for larger projects.) 18:02:19 *meingbg* switched to slime after a month or two of cut-and-paste emacs/sbcl. 18:02:30 rsynnott: Including porn? 18:02:33 For the first year I was using lisp, I was suffering with cmucl on a terminal 18:02:37 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:02:42 *meingbg* will not switch back. 18:02:50 my lisp education started in earnest after I watched marco's slime tutorial. 18:02:58 could be worse 18:03:03 could be ccl in a termina 18:03:04 l 18:03:09 (the restarts are a bit awful) 18:03:13 dlowe: Been there, done that, converted to SBCL within a months and slime not long after. 18:03:31 s/ a / / 18:03:31 nyef: I had to convert to emacs first. Quite worth it, though 18:03:32 theunixgeek: convinced? 18:03:44 minion: startingwithcl 18:03:44 startingwithcl: A quick guide to getting set up to learn Common Lisp, the #lisp way: http://www.unmutual.info/startingwithcl.html 18:04:05 could be updated a bit, but the core message remains sound 18:04:12 beach: yep, although I need to try to get SLIME to work with sbcl 18:04:13 *meingbg* mapped ( and ) to the home row, and likes it. 18:04:38 here's what my .emacs file looks like: http://rafb.net/p/uP4dxd77.html 18:04:47 and after using slime/lisp for a couple of months you feel like in prison when need to hack some c/perl on every day work ... 18:04:47 theunixgeek: It used to be easy, but last time I looked the install instructions were lagging behind reality. 18:04:55 lisppaste: url? 18:04:55 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 18:05:03 theunixgeek: next time use this 18:05:17 ok 18:05:29 theunixgeek: s/(slime-setup)/(slime-setup 'fancy)/ 18:05:33 damn 18:05:37 '(slime-fancy) 18:05:49 s/'fancy/'(slime-fancy)/ 18:05:54 theunixgeek: once you install clbuild and it's dependencies, chdir to the clbuild directory and do ./clbuild update sbcl && ./clbuild compile-implementation sbcl && ./clbuild install slime && ./clbuild slime-configuration 18:06:16 paste the output of that last command into your .emacs and start emacs. 18:06:40 "If you're using Windows, the best option is honestly to install Linux. " :( 18:06:42 *beach* should start using clbuild 18:07:13 Fade: what's your output? Ubuntu doesn't seem to have a package for clbuild 18:07:25 you have to get clbuid from rcs 18:07:28 tombom: path of least resistance 18:07:40 From -rcs-?!? 18:07:51 People still use that for something other than a CVS backend? 18:07:55 http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/ 18:08:16 fsvo rcs 18:08:22 in this case darcs 18:08:37 ... I think I'd rather RCS, tbh. 18:08:37 i prefer VCS, less confusion 18:08:41 you'll need to do apt-get install darcs mercurial cvs subversion 18:09:00 theunixgeek: just but (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) 18:09:21 TimoT [n=ttossava@cs163143.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:09:42 put, even -- just put that on the last line, and assuming your load-path is right and sbcl is installed it will work fine 18:10:06 I'm still getting sbcl when I load up slime under emacs 18:10:09 well, not the last line, but instead of the last line of your paste 18:10:12 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-234-19.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 18:10:19 what do you mean? 18:10:25 Fade: what, no git? 18:10:46 i knew I forgot something. 18:10:47 nikodemus: I open emacs, press M-x, type slime, and clisp opens instead of sbcl 18:10:51 apt-get install git-core 18:11:16 is clisp all that bad? 18:11:30 dysinger [n=tim@c-98-246-183-155.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:38 it's fine to learn with clisp. 18:11:41 theunixgeek: go to *scratch*, write inferior-lisp-program C-x C-e 18:11:46 clisp just isn't that common. 18:11:56 clisp is unstable 18:12:04 breaks more often 18:12:06 theunixgeek: not really, no, but when you are having problems, and you ask here, people won't necessarily be very helpful. 18:12:06 is it? 18:12:09 nikodemus: what do you mean by scratch? 18:12:12 has segfaults without end 18:12:20 beach: ah, ok 18:12:30 my big reasons to avoid clisp involve lack of threading and the sinister licensing FAQ entries :) 18:12:31 the *scratch* buffer 18:12:31 M-: inferior-lisp-program 18:12:37 well, that workds too 18:12:53 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 18:13:07 (setq inferior-lisp-program "clisp -I -K full") for example 18:13:19 and slime works better with SBCL 18:13:20 clisp was my first CL, but then sbcl came along.. 18:13:23 or rather (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl") 18:13:24 stassats: that returns "sbcl" 18:13:38 the second better, i think, would be CCL 18:13:55 if you installed sbcl with apt, you're going to have 1.0.18, which is quite old. 18:14:10 ccl is a bit of a pain with clbuild 18:14:11 Fade: meh, I'm still a beginner; if necessary, I'll upgrade later on 18:14:35 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202159110.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 18:14:41 Fade: is it possible to install sbcl via git over say the debian one ? 18:14:52 theunixgeek: how did you install slime? 18:14:52 or svn or whatever 18:15:00 nikodemus: sudo apt-get install slime 18:15:16 sepult: well, yes. 18:15:19 it's possible to build sbcl with the debian's one 18:15:45 but what i usually do is install sbcl from RCS in /usr/local and leave the system sbcl for bootsrapping my current image /w clbuild. 18:15:48 Fade: cause i think i have the older one, and never dared to update or upgrade 18:15:58 theunixgeek pasted "~/.emacs" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79909 18:16:13 these days I tend to build a contained image for every project /w clbuild. 18:16:25 theunixgeek: so you want to use clisp? 18:16:33 no. sbcl 18:16:34 um, no wonder clisp comes up... :) 18:16:38 remove the last line 18:16:40 ok 18:16:58 still clisp 18:17:10 did you restart emacs? 18:17:10 C-x C-e on the first line? 18:17:15 do I have to "restart" emacs in some form? 18:17:19 nikodemus: how do I do that? 18:17:28 younder [n=jthing@084202159110.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 18:17:35 C-x C-c 18:17:42 just go the the end of the line with "sbcl" on it, and hit C-x C-e 18:17:53 then restart 18:18:10 that works too 18:18:31 I still get clisp 18:18:41 did you compile your .emacs file to an .elc? 18:18:51 Fade: no; how do I do that? 18:18:53 what does M-: slime-lisp-implementations say? 18:18:58 you don't need to 18:19:05 you shouldn't do that. 18:19:16 Okay, full call scenario, which means it's not a transform... 18:19:24 but it's a common source of mysterious 'changes didn't take effect' prblems. 18:19:32 nikodemus: nil 18:19:45 Heh. I wouldn't dare compile my .emacs. Especially not my windows one. 18:19:53 Fade: doesn't it load appropriate file according to the modification date? 18:19:58 ok, here's what I'm doing: Alt+F2, emacs .emacs 18:19:58 and M-: inferior-lisp-program says "sbcl"? 18:20:07 it prefers the .elc irrespective of the date of the .el 18:20:18 nikodemus: yes 18:20:24 at least as far as init files go. 18:20:48 not sure about other emacs lisp files. 18:21:07 should I (setq slime-lisp-implementations "sbcl") ? 18:21:28 no 18:21:37 after M-x slime, switch to *inferior-lisp* buffer, and paste the contents to lisppaste 18:21:50 maybe there's a clue there 18:21:51 do you see Menorah? 18:22:10 stassats: yes 18:22:20 i'm blaming debian 18:22:33 debian installations of slime have been acting really wierd before 18:22:33 fade pasted "generic slime startup for .emacs" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79910 18:22:37 theunixgeek annotated #79909 "*inferior-lisp*" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79909#1 18:23:03 and where's menorah? 18:23:04 theunixgeek: you have sbcl 18:23:05 as emitted by clbuild for my own system. 18:23:19 where's the clisp you say you see? 18:23:54 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit ["leaving"] 18:26:27 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:26:45 BrandonWilson [n=a@216.71.225.62] has joined #lisp 18:27:38 meingbg` [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:51 nikodemus: when I do M-x slime 18:28:09 paste the buffer where you see clisp in there as well 18:28:21 but first 18:28:28 how can I set up sbcl and slime to utf8? 18:28:39 theunixgeek annotated #79909 "*slime-repl sbcl*" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79909#2 18:28:57 well, it's still sbcl 18:29:00 that is sbcl 18:29:06 -!- TimoT [n=ttossava@cs163143.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:29:09 if you don't believe, type in (lisp-implementation-type) 18:29:11 meingbg: something about a wire encoding? 18:29:17 oh, it is? 18:29:19 ah, ok 18:29:29 meingbg: (setq slime-net-coding-system 'utf-8-unix) 18:29:33 in emacs 18:29:34 It was the thing I was seeing with clisp, so I thought that's what it was 18:29:42 meingbg: (set-language-environment "UTF-8") (setq slime-net-coding-system 'utf-8-unix) 18:29:50 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88.149.210.70] has joined #lisp 18:30:04 meingbg: see the .emacs paste I just made for an example. 18:30:04 in emacs yeah. 18:30:18 and sbcl should run in the environment with UTF-8 locale 18:30:37 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Success] 18:30:45 nyef: Well, the basic testing (quote ) give "the coding system iso-blah blah is not suitable for...". 18:31:14 well, do what drewc said 18:31:30 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:31:32 I also have ".UTF-8" appended to LC_ALL and LC_CTYPE for good measure 18:32:17 hence, what stassats said 18:32:26 SB-IMPL::*DEFAULT-EXTERNAL-FORMAT* had better be :UTF-8 as well, which means a utf-8 locale... 18:32:31 stassats: drewc: Fade: thanks, I'll try that. 18:32:36 hence what stassats said. 18:32:46 strange call/cc 18:32:59 drewc: or it means that someone set it to :utf-8 manually 18:33:01 goto considered harmful. 18:33:01 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:33:25 which is another option 18:33:26 stassats: yeah, assuming it wasn't set it manually. :) 18:33:48 and if you want to do that, you'd better set the default-c-external-format or whatever as well. 18:34:32 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 18:35:06 V-ille2 [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe43fb00-66.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:35:17 sb-alien::default-c-string-external-format 18:35:33 Any clojure people around? 18:35:37 well, i didn't want to say that 18:35:48 V-ille2: in #clojure, perhaps? 18:36:12 stassats: right, I just remember vaguely that the author sometimes hangs around here 18:36:33 *drewc* grumbles about directory returning NIL when one filename in the directory is in a not compatible with sb-alien::default-c-string-external-format 18:38:28 "If the attempt to obtain a directory listing is not successful, an error of type file-error is signaled." 18:38:53 i think that'd better behaviour 18:39:01 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-99-81.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:39:20 -!- meingbg [n=user@remote5.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:39:36 -!- meingbg` [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:39:36 deliana_ [n=deliana@86.201.238.81] has joined #lisp 18:39:54 meingbg [n=user@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:57 sorry for the "blog spam", but here's a quick little post I just wrote about me starting my LISP adventure: http://theunixgeek.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/learning-lisp/ :) 18:40:54 no! another test framework! : http://bc.tech.coop/blog/090508.html 18:42:17 theunixgeek, regarding Eiffel, I'd say that all the good stuff in it has already been stolen by PLT Scheme, and the bad stuff is damning. 18:42:20 theunixgeek: We tend to write it "Lisp" these days. 18:42:36 beach`: ok, thanks 18:42:46 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-99-142.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:42:49 -!- beach` is now known as beach 18:42:57 the lower case letter having been invented in the late 70s 18:43:12 drewc: actually, it says "c-string encoding error (:external-format :ASCII): the character with code 208 cannot be encoded." 18:43:15 (de-capitalisation seems to be a common trend, actually; same thing is happening to Fortran) 18:43:55 OBSOLETE STUFF 18:44:24 ITS BECAUSE CAPITALISATION LOOKS MORONIC 18:44:28 (I guess that's why people are sort of defensive about the "Lisp" spelling :)) 18:44:48 I REFUSE TO LISTEN TO THIS CONVERSATION ANY FURTHER 18:44:52 makes a useful shibboleth, too 18:45:19 *rsynnott* is glad that the brief trend early in the decade for all-lower-case prose has gone away, though 18:45:58 stassats: oh does it? that must be new, or my situation different. 18:46:54 *rsynnott* quite likes the link from that post (http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html) 18:46:58 sb-alien::*default-c-string-external-format* => :ANSI_X3.4-1968 and filenames are in utf-8 18:47:02 though it's a bit of a Verity Stob ripoff 18:47:03 I have seen some other attempts at improving typography/spelling though. There was a guy for a while who refused to use `gh' as in `laugh', and I believe instead use an `f'. 18:47:17 stassats: How do I set the locale for sbcl? I made the changes in slime setup, but now swank hangs up the connection when I send UTF8 characters. 18:47:21 that's the most pointless thing i can imagine 18:47:47 meingbg: LANG=en_US.UTF-8 ? 18:47:53 *rsynnott* suspects that a combination of recording/radio technology, and more recently computer technology, will have frozen language in place more or less forever 18:47:57 which is sort of a pity 18:47:58 i'm not even kidding, there's something horrifyingly stupid about doing that and only that in some attempt at rebellion 18:48:00 mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-075-177-141-190.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:48:03 nag 18:48:08 language changes all the time 18:48:14 slower now but still changing 18:48:24 stassats: i had filenames (and contents) encoded in latin-1 and a utf-8 locale ... though i can't actually say the encoding of the files was consistent... this is the ALU wiki files that we recovered from archive.org etc. 18:48:32 tombom: you need to show what other uttering you were referring to. 18:48:42 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:51 what you said 18:49:42 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:49:54 oh, nevermind, it is actually (sort of) an _admitted_ verity stob ripoff :) 18:50:21 stassats: ok, LANG was unset, that's why I asked. 18:50:35 rsynnott: I suspect you are very wrong. I go back to my native city every two or three years or so, and it's amazing how fast language changes. Except the people who live there don't see it. 18:50:58 there are new words, certainly 18:51:05 but grammar doesn't seem to be changing 18:51:19 rsynnott: new words, new grammar, new pronunciation. 18:51:21 (except possibly the trend to allow the verbifying of more words) 18:51:29 and spelling certainly isn't 18:51:44 (except for movement between existing dialects) 18:51:47 rsynnott: You would be surprized. 18:51:56 lol, so u sez! 18:52:04 stuff like the trend towards people using could of instead of could have because of similar sounding speech 18:52:10 (bloody IUPAC with their 'sulfur'....) 18:52:19 ok, i deserve to be beaten -- but things change all the time 18:52:23 formal written english obviously changes less 18:52:28 rsynnott: Once I came back and the signs that used to say "centrum" all said "centre". 18:52:43 beach: that's France? 18:52:52 rsynnott: No, Sweden. 18:53:03 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 18:53:08 well, italian afaik sort of froze during the renaissance, when it was decided that Dante's language was the one to preserve -- but still it has changed 18:53:17 this is pretty tangential, but when I try to imagine myself in place of programmers (or even just any heavy computer users in general) whose native language is English, I feel very uncomfortable. but looks like you guys cope all right 18:53:32 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 18:53:38 -!- pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:54:18 i don't follow that. why uncomfortable? 18:54:46 beach: It's the boiling frog principle. 18:54:52 nikodemus: some languages, like french, have official authorities who prescribe how the language should be used - the official authority is usually ignored. it's especially noticeable with english words in french 18:54:59 -!- deliana [n=deliana@ABordeaux-158-1-99-142.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:55:15 meingbg: yeah. 18:55:41 tombom: French does not have such an authority. 18:56:45 tombom: You are also wrong in that relatively few English words make it into French, not for the reason you might imagine, but simply because they just don't fit in. 18:56:52 beach: And when you read, for example, Gustav Vasas bibel "på Swensko", you realize how deepfried frogs we are. 18:56:54 tombom: we have that too in finland 18:57:24 particularly some prescribed it jargon words are horrible beyond belief 18:57:50 meingbg: I haven't attempted that, mainly because I am an atheist, but I am willing to believe you. 18:58:07 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@65.102.47.229] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:58:14 nikodemus: well, I was briefly introduced to a Russian version of Algol (iirc) in high school. I remember it being extremely distracting. the feeling would probably wear off in a short time, if we were to seriously use the language, but we haven't, so. 18:58:20 nikodemus: and it's quite.. ..startling when people talk about code in finnish, that vocabulary is neither english nor finnish :) 18:58:46 V-ille2: ever heard my favorite? "toimitin" 18:58:56 beach: From a linguistic it is interesting to read snippets from it, not many books were wide spread those days you know. 18:58:59 nikodemus: processor? 18:59:04 it's both brilliant and horrible :) 18:59:12 guaqua: no, editor 18:59:32 I had to rack my brains there :) 18:59:34 nngh 18:59:39 editor -- taking as it's base the word for a newspaper editor, as opposed to a mechanism for perfoming edits 18:59:46 meingbg: As I said, I believe you. 19:00:36 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:37 ok, time to go home. i leave my copatriot to puzzle out this bit of non-it finnish (it is perfect correct language, and means just what it says): 19:00:44 V-ille2: i'd like some bad examples of talking about code in finnis 19:00:52 "sutuus on hukassa pinninn?" 19:01:08 night'o 19:01:19 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181149179.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:02:26 guaqua: you merely need to listen to programmers talk, about any programming language/project 19:03:06 V-ille2: oh well... 19:03:24 V-ille2: i prefer talking with terms you understand, with jargon you deem comfortable 19:03:27 V-ille2: "toimitin" sounds like a supposed-to instruktiivimuoto, in that sense I guess it would be ok for naming a tool... 19:03:40 tcr: thanks 19:04:12 stassats: swank still hangs up on me when I send utf8 characters. 19:04:29 stassats: Do I have to do some kind of special build or something? 19:04:30 what sb-impl::*default-external-format* does say? 19:05:16 I was mentioning this a few weeks ago, but last year I ran into a system that was defined with chinese atoms, and it sort of freaked me out. 19:05:45 Fade: where, where ? 19:05:46 chinese atoms? 19:06:00 i sort of like the fact that english is shortening the tower of babel a bit. 19:06:01 stassats: => :ansi_x3.4-1968 19:06:13 meingbg: and (sb-ext:posix-getenv "LANG") ? 19:06:26 Damn, nikodemus gone. Any other SBCL dev around? Is BIND-LAMBDA a backpointer to LAMBDA-BIND? 19:06:58 Fade: I agree with you, but I am afraid the shape of it depends on the audience. 19:07:12 stassats: => "en_US.UTF-8" 19:08:00 fe[nl]ix: in shanghai 19:08:27 Fade: not a public project ? 19:08:41 no, it was a university-internal project. 19:09:22 meingbg: and (sb-ext:posix-getenv "LC_CTYPE") ? 19:09:33 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:10:07 stassats: => NIL 19:10:14 -!- theunixgeek [n=patrick@201.53.244.231] has left #lisp 19:10:50 and (progn #+sb-unicode t #-sb-unicode nil) ? 19:11:11 the sourcecode was written in a lisp, but I couldn't tell the dialect. 19:11:24 i think it was a custom scheme. 19:11:36 they were very closed about the details. 19:11:41 -!- kglovern [n=kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 19:12:01 stassats: => T 19:12:14 well, that's strange 19:12:15 stassats: that feels weird. 19:12:55 you can manually set sb-alien::*default-c-string-external-format* and sb-impl::*default-external-format* to :utf-8 19:13:25 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.227.1] has quit [] 19:17:04 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:46 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:18:47 stassats: I did that, restarted the whole thing, but it still closes on utf8 input: ;;swank:close-connection: end of file on # meingbg: did you try M-x describe-language-environment is emacs? 19:25:21 (and M-x describe-coding-system) 19:26:07 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:26:22 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:24 C-h C 19:26:26 I'm not a big expert on this, but anything different from UTF-8 in the output should be considered suspect :) 19:27:25 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:28:18 cmm: language-environment is utf8, but not coding system. 19:28:38 cmm: so I changed it, let's see if it'll work 19:28:58 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:00 meingbg: the most important thing is the "subprocess I/O" coding system, obviously 19:30:21 -!- dysinger [n=tim@c-98-246-183-155.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:30:39 cmm: How can I see that? I think I just found the buffer one. 19:31:12 meingbg: should be part of the C-h C output 19:33:03 cmm: ok, it's utf8. 19:33:44 meingbg: not utf-8-unix? 19:34:13 (the -unix suffix relates to line endings, and might be important) 19:37:42 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:04 cmm: yes, utf-8-unix. 19:40:34 cmm: no, for subproceses it's mule-utf-8. 19:40:38 is that a problem? 19:40:46 shouldn't be, no 19:40:50 hmm 19:41:03 OK, no idea then :( 19:41:41 cmm: aight, thx for attempting to help! 19:41:47 M-x emacs-version ? 19:43:13 stassats: 22.1.1 19:43:14 How do I change the external-format for *standard-output*? 19:43:29 stassats: of 2008-05-02 on king, modified by Ubuntu 19:43:30 make-fd-stream 19:43:41 (Failing that, how do I persuade it to be something useful on startup?) 19:44:14 meingbg: well, try emacs 23 then 19:45:07 nyef: play with locales before starting sbcl? 19:46:19 (setf *standard-output* (sb-ext:make-fd-stream 1 :external-format :utf-8)) ? 19:46:22 stassats: ok, I'll try upgrading. 19:47:13 ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 19:47:26 stassats: sb-sys, not sb-ext. But thanks. 19:47:55 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:48:11 Hrm. So, of course, that didn't do what I wanted. Guess locales it is. 19:48:23 *stassats* always forgets what is where in sb* 19:48:26 (What's a useful value for $LOCALE? Currently it's not set for me.) 19:48:54 $LANG, ru_RU.UTF-8 is useful for me 19:49:05 HG` [n=wells@xdslfn110.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:49:05 or LC_CTYPE 19:49:31 stassats: Many thanks. That did the trick. 19:49:36 for you en_US.UTF-8 would be more useful 19:50:04 Yeah, that's what I did. It's just that I needed a place to start to get there, you know? 19:52:58 i think there's an en_GB.UTF-8 as well. 19:53:00 fwiw 19:54:07 does sbcl use locale for something besides external formats? 19:54:48 hopefully not :) 19:54:48 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:55:20 well, how about internalized error message? 19:56:20 that would mean an extra round trip for many support questions 19:57:04 (the considerations are different for truly end-user software, of course, but sbcl isn't) 19:59:11 tombom_ [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 19:59:12 posix locales are a broken concept for most modern apps anyways 20:01:08 -!- tombom_ [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Client Quit] 20:02:18 foom: why ? 20:02:36 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.194.81] has quit [] 20:03:03 fe[nl]ix: because the locale settings you want to use change depending on what you want to do, *not* always at the process boundary 20:03:23 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:03:38 foom: for example, in Europe, you could be French, living in Spain, working for a German company, in English. What locale should you use? 20:03:53 s/foom/fe[nl]ix/ 20:04:05 pjb`: en_US.UTF-8, of course 20:04:24 at least if you value your sanity 20:04:29 Well, en perhaps, but not US, you'll invoice in Euro. 20:04:35 C! 20:04:39 Rather, yes. 20:04:48 pjb`: I fail to see the connection 20:04:54 oh, of course 20:04:59 the french connection 20:05:38 e.g. if you're writing something to your config file, you need printf("%f") to always print the same way. If you're writing to a user, you want it to follow locale. 20:05:42 fe[nl]ix: I might use French as a language for the user interface, but English for the spell checker, and Spanish calendar and date/time formats, but German monetary format. 20:05:45 or worse, you're writing a webapp 20:06:00 every session really wants a different locale 20:06:16 foom: I've never ever seen a case where you want to run different parts of the same app with different locales. not with a desktop app 20:06:35 fe[nl]ix: you've really never wanted to write data to a config file in a standard format? 20:06:44 ?? 20:07:17 what data, what config, what format ? 20:07:26 in en_US 3.5 in ru_RU 3,5 20:08:37 Damn. No wonder this is failing. 20:09:27 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:09:28 imagine how fun it is to work with programs requiring dots while having polish locale in windows, trying to enter numbers using numeric keypad 20:09:28 It's doing a DATA-VECTOR-REF/SIMPLE-ARRAY-UNSIGNED-BYTE-31 on an unspecialized vector. 20:09:38 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-14-157.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:49 stassats`: posix locales are for display(on a screen, piece of paper) not for data interchange 20:10:22 fe[nl]ix: tell that Microsoft CVS engineers! 20:10:25 +to 20:10:53 *nyef* builds an x86 sbcl in order to check his conclusions. 20:11:27 Oh. 20:11:45 Umm... Are arrays specialized to unsigned-fixnum stored boxed or unboxed? 20:12:35 pjb`: that's a poor example 20:14:02 you never know, with unix, where screen display ends and data interchange begins 20:14:07 fe[nl]ix: yes, exactly, that's why posix locales are broken by design 20:14:27 fe[nl]ix: they break the C stdlib functions that people rely on, instead of just adding new APIs that take a locale argument 20:15:28 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:16:09 ok, maybe *posix* locales, but not locales in general 20:16:32 nyef: unboxed, I think 20:16:34 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslfn110.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:16:49 Locales implemented properly, by a library that doesn't use stupid global state and modify the function of basic I/O routines *is* good, yes. 20:16:54 fe[nl]ix: well, MacOSX "locales", what you specify in the System Preferences, are broken IMO. 20:17:15 froydnj: I'm thinking boxed, based on looking at compiler/x86-64/array.lisp. 20:17:29 such as...ICU. 20:17:42 foom: how would you design such an I/O API ? 20:17:54 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:05 Ibm's ICU ? 20:18:34 dv___ [n=dv@85-127-103-164.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:18:46 fe[nl]ix: not sure exactly what you mean. But taking the example of printf. It wouldn't change its function depending on locale, you'd have to call another function (which takes a locale as an argument!) to get locale-sensitive output. 20:18:53 -!- dv___ is now known as dv_ 20:20:15 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 20:20:55 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 20:21:22 foom: you also need some type of global locale. how else would a REPL print the result of (coerce 3/2 'float) ? ask the user each time ? 20:21:59 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp002.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 20:22:58 Unboxed. 20:23:21 Well, that explains that, at least partially. 20:24:02 Next question is why make-array isn't returning a specialized array. 20:24:07 fe[nl]ix: of course it wouldn't ask the user, it would always print it in the repl's locale. 20:24:35 is it specified what function REPL must use to print values? 20:24:41 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@90.3.174.52] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:24:50 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 20:24:53 repl isn't specified 20:25:20 Edward__ [i=Ed@90.3.129.241] has joined #lisp 20:25:21 oh, good point there 20:25:41 stassats`: however some features of the REPL are specified, such as +, ++, +++, *, **, etc. 20:26:01 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-14-157.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:26:50 (now, I'd argue that the repl, being a programming interface, not an end-user interface, should not actually have a locale and always print data the same way, too..) 20:26:54 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@75.149.33.105] has joined #lisp 20:27:36 foom: sorry, is that "ICU is good" or "ICU is horrible"? 20:27:46 foom: that's not much different from a global, per-process locale. the difference is that in CL we have specials and we can make it nicer. 20:28:00 still, for most users, a per-process locale is a good thing 20:28:06 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-14-157.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:29:27 froydnj: Good. It provides an API which lets you do locale-sensitive things like number/currency/date formatting that don't completely suck. 20:31:45 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 20:32:02 foom: ah, ok. thanks for the clarification 20:32:17 fe[nl]ix: completely disagree, if the per-process locale is used by any function not explicitly designed for locale-sensitive operation which can take a locale argument. 20:34:49 Oh, good. This bug isn't tagged as "easy". 20:34:57 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 20:35:20 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp002.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 20:35:49 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:35:54 -!- HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:35:56 karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has joined #lisp 20:36:09 -!- Davse_Ba1se [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 20:36:26 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.139.223] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:37:39 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 20:38:37 Ugh, I totally violated the rule about not writing clever code because it is twice as hard to debug. It doesn't need to be debugged, I'm just not sure how it works. 20:39:05 ah the phase when code reaches tech magic :) 20:39:22 do we need tech priests for it? 20:40:02 rdd [n=user@83.250.152.109] has joined #lisp 20:40:07 *tmh* starts evaluating forms by hand in the REPL. 20:40:55 btw, has anyone got a CLI a'la the one from Genera? (the command interpreter portion, not necessarily the graphic one) 20:40:59 how to decide when your code is clever? 20:41:15 i think it's not an absolute measure 20:41:43 When my code can out-think me, it's clever. 20:41:48 p_l: like clim? 20:41:56 stassats`: Good point. I was working from the premise of "What the hell does that do?". But, upon reflection, the code might be crap and not clever. 20:42:04 stassats`: haven't played enough with clim to remember... 20:42:16 stassats`: when it's twice as hard to debug 20:42:51 antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-f9551e421b8fe99d] has joined #lisp 20:42:57 S11001001: for who? 20:42:59 carbocal` [n=user@204.101.159.235] has joined #lisp 20:43:16 for whoever happens to need to debug it 20:43:18 whomever 20:43:53 -!- prip [n=_prip@host254-129-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:43:59 it's trice as hard to debug SBCL for me, but i don't think most of it is clever 20:44:00 still a relative measure, since in the deterministic model of the universe, only a set of particular people will ever have need to debug a particular piece of code 20:44:09 sorry, *absolute* measure 20:44:13 The key is still being able to distinguish clever from crapola. 20:44:13 cannot write today 20:44:21 -!- carbocalm [n=user@204.101.159.235] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:44:25 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:55:35 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.94.48] has joined #lisp 20:57:15 jimi_hendrix [n=jimi_hen@unaffiliated/jimihendrix/x-735601] has joined #lisp 20:57:19 does anyone here use cusp? 20:57:20 Hi, I was trying to build sbcl 1.0.28 on Ubuntu 9.04 64bit. The compilation is successful but the test failed. 20:57:27 Failure: float.pure.lisp / (SCALE-FLOAT-OVERFLOW BUG-372) 20:57:27 Failure: float.pure.lisp / (ADDITION-OVERFLOW BUG-372) 20:57:36 is that normal? 20:58:10 I can't recall seeing those before. 20:58:36 jimi_hendrix, I've been known to dabble in it from time to time 20:58:51 Jasko3, i have been having trouble setting up cusp 20:59:10 how did you do it 20:59:12 what OS? 20:59:29 linux 20:59:35 i have sbcl installed 21:00:04 what's Cusp do when you try to start it? 21:00:25 installation is pretty much a matter of unzipping things into the plugins folder 21:01:06 although Linux and Java (and thus Eclipse) do seem to have a tenuous relationship, in my experience 21:01:23 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:01:30 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@63.107.91.99] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:01:31 Jasko3, well i tried downloading it the repo internally, but i got some java error when i tried to open lisp files 21:01:44 now i downloaded the tar and am trying to install that way 21:01:46 floaty bugs on x86-64? sounds normal to me. 21:02:14 i tried cp -r cusp_linux eclipse/plugins/ # but it did not work 21:02:32 running from source is nicer, but there are definitely a good deal more steps to get things working 21:03:01 nyyef: but it is marked as "Failure" not "Expected failure" 21:03:05 Jasko3, ok, what do i do 21:03:11 is that copying the cusp_linux folder into plugins, or its contents? 21:03:24 because you want to do the latter 21:03:41 the whole folder i think 21:04:05 whole folder 21:04:24 ok, i want to copy the mini folders and stuff too? 21:04:32 folder 21:04:34 (mini == smaller ones in the bigger one) 21:04:43 yes 21:04:45 s/folder/directories/ 21:04:49 sub 21:04:57 stick another slash on there 21:05:12 just don't use rsync -a --del instead of cp -r 21:05:23 as for running from source, there's http://cusp.devjavu.com/wiki/DevStart 21:05:35 but, like I said, that's harder to get working than what you're doing now 21:08:10 is there something in lisp close to http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net/? 21:13:16 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:13:25 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:13:54 theunixgeek [n=patrick@201.53.244.231] has joined #lisp 21:14:05 Jasko3, so do i want to move the sub dirs, or just their contents? 21:14:36 I'm on chapter 2 of PCL, and I'm having some troubles with new .cl files and SLIME. 21:14:37 prip [n=_prip@host254-129-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:14:39 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 21:15:25 are there many? There should be one named something like jasko.tim.lisp, which is what you want in plugins/ 21:15:30 mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has joined #lisp 21:15:30 theunixgeek: describe your problem 21:16:02 I go into Emacs, open up the interactive interpreter, and then the chapter says "create a new file with C-x and C-f." When I do that, however, SLIME is gone and I can't use its features in a new Lisp file. 21:16:08 Jasko3, $ ls 21:16:08 features plugins 21:16:37 you'd think I'd know these things 21:16:41 theunixgeek: does your file end with .lisp? 21:16:47 stassats`: .lc 21:16:48 $ ls features 21:16:48 jasko.tim.lisp_0.9.189 jasko.tim.lisp.libs_1.0.0 sbcl_linux_1.0.9.13 21:16:49 *cl 21:16:51 contents of plugins goes to plugins, contents of features goes to features 21:17:06 plugins has the smae thing but an onlder sbcl 21:17:21 oh ok 21:17:24 theunixgeek: here is your problem 21:17:52 ok, I'll try again 21:17:56 ~/Downloads/cusp_linux$ ls 21:17:56 features plugins 21:18:16 stassats`: thanks :D 21:20:05 jimi_hendrix, if none of this is working for you, you could give Sergey Kolos' update site a shot: http://sergeykolos.com/cusp/update/ 21:20:46 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.36] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:21:14 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-234-19.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 21:22:03 theunixgeek pasted "Hello World and compiler errors" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79913 21:22:16 ok 21:22:36 I'm getting a lot of weird compiler errors with my simple hello world program 21:22:50 theunixgeek: () after hello-world in defun 21:23:00 stassats`: thanks 21:23:09 sorry for the "noob" burden ;) 21:23:20 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:41 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:23:49 -!- carbocal` [n=user@204.101.159.235] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:25:24 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:26:25 theunixgeek annotated #79913 "more compiler errors" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79913#1 21:26:37 I fixed the code but I still get a few errors 21:27:41 did you C-c C-c on your defun? 21:27:51 stassats`: "on" it? 21:28:17 yeah, you are pointing cursor somwhere between (defun ...) 21:28:46 -!- BrandonWilson [n=a@216.71.225.62] has quit [Success] 21:28:51 assuming you are using slime 21:29:16 Jasko3, ok, its installed, now how do i run a file? 21:29:51 jimi_hendrix, I'd recommend going through http://sergeykolos.com/cusp/intro/ 21:30:06 stassats`: the cursor's in the function, but now I get no output 21:31:27 well, you do C-c C-c on defun, and enter (hello-world) at the repl 21:32:21 Jasko3, i dont see a repl at the bottom like in that tutorial 21:32:24 i am in the lisp view 21:32:53 theunixgeek: you might want to watch http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov to become more familiar with slime 21:32:55 stassats`: how do I go back to the repl? Is there a special buffer for it? 21:32:57 stassats`: ok 21:33:08 C-c C-z to go to repl 21:33:20 no repl? I'm not sure it worked 21:33:37 but if you go to Window > Show View it should be there 21:33:40 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 21:33:44 grumps [n=grumps@adsl-75-3-90-107.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:51 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-9ef81e1bc8aab6fc] has quit [] 21:36:34 Jasko3, can i some how add the repl to the window where the console is? 21:37:01 stassats`: thanks for the help :D 21:37:04 Window > Show View > Repl should have brought it up 21:37:10 Jasko3: I'm using Emacs 21:37:24 Jasko3: you? 21:37:47 theunixgeek, I'm talking jimi_hendrix through Cusp right now 21:37:49 Jasko3, it did, but in a new window 21:37:55 Jasko3: oh ok, sorry 21:38:17 jimi_hendrix, well, you can drag it around like any other view and put it where you want 21:39:28 is it possible to make slime description buffer display uppercase as italic like the Emacs help buffer? 21:39:34 and... afk 21:40:14 gcv [n=gcv@67.97.51.195] has joined #lisp 21:40:21 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=greg@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:40:23 leo2007: sure it is, slime source code is open, just hack it 21:42:00 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-30-36.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:43:22 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6F319.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:25 stassats`: hacking is beyond me, just wonder if that is customisable? 21:43:45 i'm investigating that 21:44:37 stassats`: thanks 21:45:05 Reading English slow for me and uppercase makes it worse 21:50:04 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:52:03 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 21:53:36 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:55:22 leo2007: to what description buffer you are referring to? 21:55:36 s/^to // 21:56:44 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:57:20 C-c C-d d ? 21:57:30 yes 22:00:00 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 22:01:07 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:03:46 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 22:04:21 -!- nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving the office."] 22:04:27 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:00 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e44b9e4.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:07:28 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250005.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:08:29 it's possible to write a minor mode for that, and then use it for any buffers, including slime's 22:09:13 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@75.149.33.105] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:09:29 -!- antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-f9551e421b8fe99d] has left #lisp 22:09:40 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-34.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 22:11:25 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 22:11:26 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 22:12:57 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:13:05 stassats`: do you have the code to do that? 22:13:18 i'm investigating that :) 22:15:15 -!- theunixgeek [n=patrick@201.53.244.231] has left #lisp 22:20:04 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:55 c|mell [n=cmell@x250028.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 22:23:03 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:23:31 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:24:02 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless107.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:25:41 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:54 benny` [n=benny@87.122.11.31] has joined #lisp 22:27:36 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:54 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:32:48 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 22:32:58 -!- benny [n=benny@87.122.7.43] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:33:50 psheldr [n=Miranda@217.13.173.109] has joined #lisp 22:37:01 Dinosaur [n=user@unaffiliated/dinosaur] has joined #lisp 22:37:16 any newLISPers here? 22:37:27 no 22:37:52 Dinosaur: fortunately not 22:38:12 Dinosaur: newLISP is extremely sloppily designed 22:38:59 His designer didn't learn the lessons of lisp long history. 22:39:11 truthair [n=none@delph.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 22:39:17 -!- benny` is now known as benny 22:39:57 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:40:39 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6F319.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 22:42:13 blitz_ [n=blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has joined #lisp 22:42:37 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-5.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:42:45 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-5.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 22:43:46 I guess that is so. That must be why he kept copying features from languages like C, C++, Java, Tcl/Tk, Python, BASIC, and so on. 22:43:55 (the newLISP author that is) 22:44:57 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:45:03 we don't really like to discuss newLISP here 22:46:15 Okay, so I'm reading Practical Common Lisp and I just read the part on lexical and dynamic variables. But I'm unclear how the behaviour of dynamic variables being shadowed differs from say Python where a local variables hides the global variable when a variable with the same name is declared. 22:47:25 do other scopes see it? 22:47:41 Yes. In the case of dynamic variables, other scopes may see it too. 22:48:02 in python? 22:48:07 In Lisp. 22:48:12 stassats: no 22:48:14 I know nothing about python. 22:48:33 well, that's how it is different then 22:48:34 Ah, and lexical variables are only visible in the current scopes and not deeper nested ones? 22:48:38 in Python variable with the same name always shadows the one higher, unless the one higher is specially declared 22:48:49 (defvar *y* 1) (defun f (x) (+ *y* x)) (let ((*y* 2)) (f 1)) --> 3 22:49:32 truthair: they're visible in deeper _lexical_ scopes, but not deeper dynamic scopes. 22:49:59 (let ((y 1)) (defun f (x) (+ y x))) (let ((y 2)) (f 1)) --> 2 22:50:02 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-234-19.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 22:51:16 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-30-148.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 22:51:45 -!- psheldr [n=Miranda@217.13.173.109] has left #lisp 22:54:59 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483C110.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:55:23 pjb`: Ah, yeah. I get it now, thanks 22:59:56 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:00:08 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:50 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:21 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 23:03:33 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:04:01 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-26-121.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:13 HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 23:08:53 -!- gcv [n=gcv@67.97.51.195] has quit [] 23:12:15 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:12:45 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:13:42 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 23:13:51 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:14:24 matley [n=matley@85.20.75.166] has joined #lisp 23:17:40 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 23:18:19 alec [n=alec@pool-96-237-2-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:53 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:23:52 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:29:17 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:30:20 JohnnyL [i=IHadToWr@24.47.11.152] has joined #lisp 23:33:40 -!- dwave_ [n=ask@084202074230.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:35:20 -!- matley [n=matley@85.20.75.166] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:35:49 jao [n=jao@123.Red-79-155-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:41 nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:47 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 23:40:41 brandelune [n=suzume@pl130.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:41:18 borism_ [n=boris@195.50.197.60] has joined #lisp 23:44:58 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:11 *hefner* punches clisp and unicode in the gut 23:45:40 Why? They're nice! 23:46:09 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:46:37 -!- borism [n=boris@195.50.201.161] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:46:40 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:46:56 -!- rdd [n=user@83.250.152.109] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:47:44 drakej [n=Fred@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:40 -!- grumps [n=grumps@adsl-75-3-90-107.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 23:48:58 rich_holygoat [n=rnewman@76-220-42-147.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:14 stassats pasted "italize and downcase for leo2007" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79919 23:49:25 I'll apologize to unicode for unfairly blaming it, since it's usually the culprit in sabotaging trivial text processing tasks. 23:49:33 leo2007: that should do it 23:50:06 divia [n=divia@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 23:51:18 Hrm. make-array works right at the cold-repl. 23:51:36 stassats: thanks ;) 23:51:37 pjb`: the complaint of the day is that I open a text file and want to read its contents into an array, but file-length counts CR and LF separately while read-sequence combines them, so I'm left will NILs at the end of my array. 23:51:43 jao` [n=jao@204.Red-81-32-185.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:50 Though I think it will be better using overlay 23:52:03 hefner: that's a well known feature. 23:52:26 Make the array adjustable, and adjust it after reading. 23:53:26 -!- Wombat2 [n=willy@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:53:27 nah, I'll just use :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) instead, and consider adding characters to my list of CL features to avoid 23:53:28 leo2007: oh, i skipped that part 23:53:51 hefner: that's a possibility, if you don't need to deal with characters. 23:54:16 damn, emacs is so complex, it's hard to find what you need 23:55:27 or, in the spirit of doing the simplest thing that can possibly work, kludge the array with :initial-element #\Space. Works for this task. 23:56:42 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:58:37 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:59:36 stassats: try a real editor