00:05:02 dihymo [n=rares@75-174-218-63.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:14 -!- schoppen1auer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:07:23 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:07:51 me playing with reader macros; http://common-lisp.net/~lnostdal/sw-mvc.ogv .. i just rediscovered them yesterday; maybe i'm overdoing it :) 00:08:10 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-37-46-238.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:14:16 mejja: $$$$, I think you'll find ;) 00:15:01 lnostdal: I had no idea how cool seamonkey's built in ogv player is! 00:15:15 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:52 it works? .. heh .. i had to fiddle with the mime-type in .htaccess to get it to work here :) 00:17:04 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-105.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 00:19:24 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:19:59 Twilight777 [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:10 -!- gloaming [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:24:04 hmmm... fun. MMIX apparently allows for context-switch instructions to be used in usermode :) 00:24:07 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-233-232-222.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:24 nuntius [i=nuntius@118.37.165.172] has joined #lisp 00:25:29 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:26:38 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:28:23 "But a user program that knows what it is doing can in fact allocate its own register stack or stacks and do its own process switching" <--- two instructions 00:29:25 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-51.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:31:59 -!- projections [n=p@88.235.101.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:33:12 -!- Modius [n=Modius@70.129.201.243] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:33:32 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-201-243.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:08 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-162-104.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:19 -!- Twilight777 [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:40:27 -!- nuntius [i=nuntius@118.37.165.172] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 00:42:34 -!- rullie_ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:45 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-225-1.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 00:43:32 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:43:39 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 00:46:24 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-69-149-24-93.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:18 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-723de14b6135b8b0] has left #lisp 00:47:59 -!- jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:48:32 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-233-232-222.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:49:56 Twilight777 [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:32 Modius__ [n=Modius@99.179.99.206] has joined #lisp 00:53:41 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-69-149-24-93.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:55:35 hm 00:55:44 not understanding how this works in the case where it does 00:56:01 having trouble with very large Unicode codepoints and Slime and SBCL 00:56:14 it's fine with codepoints up to and including #xFFFF 00:56:28 I'm not expecting help with this, just talking myself through it :) 00:57:06 seems that the length in the protocol is (as one would expect) meant to be the actual byte length of the message 00:57:26 which is not what's sent because SBCL's (length) is the number of characters 00:57:47 but if that's the case, why does it work for smaller codepoints? 00:57:59 hmmm 00:59:36 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:01:38 lnostdal: I'm running a fairly recent seamonkey build. perhaps it has been fixed. 01:01:45 -!- dysinger [n=tim@64.65.187.250] has quit [] 01:02:00 ok, slyrus 01:02:56 quick *general* lisp question - can someone point me to an implementation of a small subset of lisp? I want to recreate something lisp-like in Java before 14th of May, to code my solution in it :) 01:03:31 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-201-243.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:04:12 http://www.modeemi.fi/~chery/lisp500/ 01:04:15 -!- dihymo [n=rares@75-174-218-63.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:04:39 thx 01:04:40 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 01:04:44 dysinger [n=tim@64.65.187.250] has joined #lisp 01:04:45 it looks smaller than SIOD :) 01:05:18 is all kind of run together 01:05:22 ahhh 01:05:28 Emacs doesn't understand the really large codepoints 01:05:39 I guess this opens the question of why I really need to use them in the first place >< 01:07:20 codepoints? 01:08:18 oo 01:09:24 BrandonWilson [n=a@216.71.225.62] has joined #lisp 01:10:34 -!- Guest23307 is now known as lemoinem 01:12:20 JAS415: I was having trouble with Emacs, Slime, SBCL, Unicode, and characters with codepoints #x10000 and greater, but I decided to work around it. 01:13:18 emacs 22? 01:14:39 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@99.179.99.206] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:16:37 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["DON'T PANIC"] 01:16:49 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-154-10-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:27 -!- alec [n=alec@pool-96-237-2-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:18:41 yeah, it was Emacs 22 01:22:56 -!- milaz [n=user@85.175.40.18] has quit ["It was nice to meet you!"] 01:24:33 well, then emacs 23 is your work around 01:29:11 hrm 01:29:13 interesting point 01:29:19 I hate building Emacs though, haha 01:29:42 the cure is worse than the disease given that I only actually wanted those codepoints because I'm writing a text-processing tool that I'd like to handle them 01:29:55 but it doesn't really need to handle them because clearly nobody actually uses them :) 01:29:56 -!- jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:30:05 (although they certainly do exist) 01:30:32 but thanks for pointing that out, I had forgotten there was a newer one 01:32:10 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:33:24 gloaming [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:29 -!- gloaming [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:33:56 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 01:34:00 -!- Twilight777 [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:35:06 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:38:14 _sepult_ [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-27-157.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:38:21 nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:25 Evening all. 01:38:54 morning 01:39:17 So, it occurred to me what the ultimate SB-ALIEN hack would be. 01:39:26 do tell. 01:39:36 And I'm fairly sure it's not possible with current SB-ALIEN. 01:39:56 It's interfacing to the GObject-based system from GTK. 01:40:49 CLG has a custom FFI layer to do precisely this. 01:41:26 hmm 01:41:29 yes, that would be difficult 01:41:33 how about interfacing with the C++ object system, or the ObjC object system? both those would be fun too. :) 01:41:56 Sure. And I already have the basic plans laid out for a COM interface. 01:42:09 ObjC is actually relatively easy to link against, OpenMCL does it with the MOP. I don't know what the ABIs of the others are like. 01:42:32 A good C++ alien interface would be hecka useful, but quite surely a rather large pain in the ass. 01:42:35 OpenMCL has that interface database, though. 01:42:42 yeah, true 01:42:44 OSX has the interface database actually 01:43:02 the python bindings are almost 100% dynamically generated from an (i think) xml interface database 01:43:30 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 01:43:38 Heh. Typical. 01:43:49 I believe it's generated and shipped with the libraries automatically somehow. 01:44:00 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-154-10-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:44:03 No one platform can hit everything, and each completely nails different things absolutely correct. 01:44:23 nyef: is this different from the cl-gtk hack? 01:44:29 well, I know that ObjC has its own section in the object file, which probably has that sort of metadata in it but I don't know 01:44:36 froydnj: Don't know. What's that hack? 01:45:23 nyef: it involves hooking up GObject bits to the MOP 01:45:32 http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man1/gen_bridge_metadata.1.html 01:45:36 froydnj: For what it's worth, I'm thinking something like what I did with hgdiobj.lisp. 01:45:43 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-154-11-46.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:46 ah, that answers that 01:46:24 Hunh. Neat. 01:46:41 It sounds like the objc parts are actually introspectible by themselves, and this is for the C bits. 01:46:51 Yeah, that's what it seems to say. 01:48:29 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:49:24 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 01:49:25 This actually sounds rather useful on its own. :) 01:49:34 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 01:52:34 I wonder if it's open source and works on linux too; you could use it to make bridgesupport files for random C libraries and simplify the whole bindings generation process for them. 01:53:13 As if there aren't already a pile of libraries for that sort of thing. 01:53:23 -!- ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:53:38 Sure; gcc-xml comes to mind. 01:53:54 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-188.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 01:54:03 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-27-217.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:54:04 But here the binding-reading code for python and ruby is already written 01:54:12 (maybe; depending on how unportable it is) 01:56:08 -!- benny` is now known as benny 01:57:05 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-14-157.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:21 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:02:54 drakej [n=Fred@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:51 Vegan [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.170] has joined #lisp 02:07:39 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2F9CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:08:11 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 02:11:41 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-154-11-46.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:12:31 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633642.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:13:19 Of course, now I'm curious. Are there really 97 FIXMEs left in the SBCL source? 02:13:22 foom: this is what I do with gcc-xml-ffi (generate sb-alien forms from gcc-xml output) 02:13:42 nyef: you mean ONLY 97? 02:14:13 slyrus: See the commit comments for 1.0.28.7 and 1.0.28.23. 02:14:40 *slyrus* goes off to check planet.sbcl.org 02:15:00 kglovern [n=kgn@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:15:02 1.0.28.23 won't have hit planet sbcl yet. It's not even three minutes old. 02:15:34 ah. I assumed the .7 message was a joke. 02:15:45 So did I, hence what I did with .23. 02:15:53 But, like I said, now I'm curious. 02:16:52 rullie_ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:16:59 Hrm. I added one in .15. That might throw the count off. 02:17:06 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:17:45 As for bindings... didn't ObjC include a built-in reflection system? 02:17:56 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.23] has joined #lisp 02:17:57 Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 02:18:00 I know GObject has a certain amount of reflection. 02:18:37 and "method not found" system, afaik - I recall there being some networked version of ObjC runtime 02:19:02 ObjC has reflection, yes 02:19:08 Basically, I want to show ALIEN types that back onto a foreign object system and use reflection to obtain subtype/supertype relationships and create suitable CLOS wrapper classes. 02:19:27 now if that etoile guy finishes his runtime, I might learn ObjC... 02:20:11 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:20:35 I have part of it with hgdiobj.lisp which queries GDI to find out what sort of handle it really has, but that's a flat hierarchy and it breaks down if you try to go from an HGDIOBJ to a subtype without naturalizing the handle (as typep on local-aliens is broken). 02:21:23 Well, not broken, but just... not as useful as I'd like. 02:21:54 rullie__ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:21:56 Oh, good. My changes did build. 02:21:59 kinnetica [n=kinnetic@pool-96-231-130-194.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:07 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:23:35 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.170] has quit ["leaving"] 02:23:43 -!- divia___ [n=divia@98.210.196.101] has quit [] 02:24:02 -!- drakej [n=Fred@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:26:48 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 02:27:48 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.178.141] has joined #lisp 02:33:03 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:33:59 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 02:34:48 drakej [n=Fred@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:12 phf [n=phf@c-98-231-211-226.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:50 -!- rullie_ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:39:06 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:44:43 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:17 Vegan [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.170] has joined #lisp 02:49:25 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 02:52:00 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:54:51 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-daf83dd60fec4271] has joined #lisp 02:56:59 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:28 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has quit [] 02:57:40 -!- ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has quit [Success] 02:59:37 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:00:11 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:10 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:09:08 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 03:09:49 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 03:11:32 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.23] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:13:06 -!- saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:14:52 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 03:14:54 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:20:23 -!- _sepult_ [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-27-157.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 03:20:51 sepult [n=sepult@87.78.27.157] has joined #lisp 03:24:29 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042315]"] 03:32:48 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:34:53 -!- nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 03:34:53 SandGorgon__ [n=user@122.162.244.60] has joined #lisp 03:40:29 jfc. ulrich drepper is a total dink. 03:40:32 -!- younder [n=jthing@84.202.13.251] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:41:10 Is it about getaddrinfo & co? :D 03:41:21 yeah 03:41:35 not particularly please about debian moving to eglibc. 03:41:45 pleased* 03:41:47 oh, there's another libc? 03:41:53 I knew of uClibc 03:42:10 http://blog.aurel32.net/?p=47 03:42:31 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:01 -!- kinnetica [n=kinnetic@pool-96-231-130-194.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:44:24 *hefner* shrugs 03:44:43 hmmm... got to test that one day 03:44:44 how is a C library not the kind of detail finished and forgotten about ten years ago? 03:44:56 hell, windows doesn't even have one, and it gets by okay ;) 03:45:16 hefner: Because windows does it VMS way wrt. to system libraries :P 03:45:43 also, C library in windows is replaced quite often (msvcrt packages, anyone?) 03:46:02 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host132.190-227-38.telecom.net.ar] has quit ["leaving"] 03:46:17 Tordek [n=tordek@host132.190-227-38.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 03:47:50 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:52:16 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:54:28 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:55:06 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 03:55:21 one of these days I'll have to setup a linux from scratch and check how much cruft I can kick out... 03:56:24 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:56:42 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:56:55 -!- kapolonc [n=user@78.33.52.101] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:00:19 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.170] has quit ["leaving"] 04:02:21 -!- jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:07:57 saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 04:14:47 that's only my todo list, too. I don't know what half the services on my linux machine are, and I don't understand why it's running the other half. 04:15:18 ("mail transfer agent"? what the hell?) 04:17:09 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:17:25 http://wiki.mutt.org/?MailConcept has a good explanation of that particular one, hefner 04:17:47 jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 04:18:43 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-139.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:19:10 -!- rullie__ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:19:27 *hefner* glares 04:19:50 hefner: I thankfully know every process on my machine, even those that are there only because I haven't yet found how to kick them out 04:21:11 thanks to that, my laptop is probably the fastest when it comes to boot time relative to performance :D (I should tweak I/O, though) 04:21:59 that's great, but does your suspend work? =p 04:22:35 hefner: yes, it does, as long as you don't forget to drop network connections (I forgot about automating that step, should add it to hibernate.conf) 04:22:54 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 04:23:04 jlf` [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 04:23:06 it required a little tweaking in hibernation scripts due to bugs in intel wireless drivers 04:23:44 *p_l* wonders whether he should go with Lisp-1 or Lisp-2 04:25:43 http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=4403 <--- as for glibc problems... 04:28:34 hmmm... Lisp-2 it is, less hassle deciding which is which 04:28:39 I'm not sure where to begin with that (strfry) 04:28:41 rullie_ [n=rullie@99.235.203.155] has joined #lisp 04:28:58 p_l: what are you writing again? 04:29:04 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:29:56 hefner: I decided to "surprise" my professor by implementing a Lisp interpreter in Java and then finishing the assignment in it 04:30:23 after all, requirement for 20/20 grade was "Surprise me" 04:30:47 sounds like fun. 04:31:00 p_l: I think that would do it, at least if I were your professor. 04:31:10 [and good morning everyone] 04:31:18 beach: good morning 04:31:33 Also, we do have a compiler class... in Level 3. I'm finishing Level 1 04:31:36 *hefner* wonders if this boggle solver is amenable to multitprocessing 04:32:09 froydnj: you're a courageous man. 04:34:30 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Client Quit] 04:34:30 xan-afk_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 04:35:41 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-8-121.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:38:10 I have to admit, it's going to be far from anything resembling a sensible Scheme or CL implementation... 04:39:07 Perhaps SIOD should be your model :) 04:39:15 make it Lisp 1.5 04:40:28 Zhivago: I took some inspiration from it 04:42:26 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:01 stassats: Hmm.. there's Lisp 1.5 manual in library... 04:43:35 or simpler, lisp described in the jmc's "recursive..." paper 04:44:12 -!- drakej [n=Fred@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has left #lisp 04:44:16 you could always bash out a quick forthoid 04:45:58 that's also possible, but I haven't used Forth enough to use it for this one (graph manipulation etc.) 04:46:22 so I'm making a simple lisp-like language to describe simulation and its parameters 04:47:20 -!- xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:48:06 If 'in Java' is part of the requirements, surely the simplest solution is to hand in CL or Scheme code stuffed inside a bag of coffee beans. :P 04:48:31 hi, i've been experimenting with the sbcl profiler. i noticed that when i recompile a profiled function with C-c C-c i see an error such as "PLACE-ONE-WORD already names an ordinary function or a macro.", but i see only the usual style-warning if i do the same after unprofiling. is that expected behavior? 04:48:33 -!- kglovern [n=kgn@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 04:48:41 jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 04:49:18 jlf`: the instrumenting profiler (sb-prof) temporarily replaces definitions. You probably want to use the statistical profiler, actually. 04:49:40 *sb-profile. 04:50:14 p_l: it's quite doable...been there, done that...for a trivial assignment, that is ;) 04:50:21 pinterface: must run on JVM, must be written in Java (I'm trying to get out by writing an interpreter) 04:50:53 pkhuong: i see. thanks for the tip. 04:51:13 guaqua: Oh, I don't doubt that. But I decided that Lisp beat my previous proposition, which was writing a simple RISC cpu simulator, some I/O and write all the rest in assembly 04:52:35 p_l: it would be easier to write this in Lisp 04:52:48 p_l: Must run on JVM: Clojure. Must be written in Java: coffee-based ink. ;) 04:53:07 pinterface: I can't choose Clojure for that, unless I reimplement clojure in my code :P 04:53:48 p_l: "Surprise! I ignored the requirements!" 04:54:10 *pinterface* is being both overly punny and not particularly helpful. 04:54:59 java being the requirement does suck, if it's not the java programming class 04:55:01 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@190.135.69.80] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:55:08 guaqua: It sorts of is 04:55:30 meaning, university plans on teaching programming with Java 04:55:40 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:47 java is one of the few programming languages that succeeds to kill my creativity 04:56:53 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:58:34 p_l: i did something like that for my projects. note that i wasted time writing parser, and initially had a lot of points deducted for not "using java" (i had sexps in a separate file) 04:59:53 for the second submission i generated java code that built ast instead (from common lisp) 04:59:58 after that they've not bothered me anymore 05:01:08 if only you'd use your powers for good! 05:04:48 http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1224639&cid=27852877 <--- another part of eglibc drama... 05:04:53 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:05:14 yes, like not going for computer science degree 05:05:43 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:07 phf: What is wrong with a CS degree? 05:06:26 beach: java for the most part 05:06:50 guaqua: So you are saying that in every CS program on this planet, there is Java and just Java? 05:07:13 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:07:14 beach: no. it's just that majority have 05:07:22 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:07:36 guaqua: I think it is important to know Java, so that you can have an informed opinion about it. 05:07:38 beach: there is nothing wrong with a CS degree per se 05:08:17 guaqua: Ah, I thought that's what you were saying. Sorry! 05:08:49 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-94-2.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:27 darn. here I was hoping for an inspiring anti-academia rant. 05:09:40 -!- sepult [n=sepult@87.78.27.157] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 05:09:40 yeah, me too! :) 05:09:51 -!- rullie_ [n=rullie@99.235.203.155] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 05:10:04 *stassats* is feeling quite well without an opinion on Java 05:10:12 is there a sbcl cvs ebuild for gentoo? 05:10:13 it's just that the languages that are taught will also be used. and teaching java contributes to the usage of java 05:10:41 guaqua: Ah, I wish you were right, since we teach a lot of Lisp in Bordeaux. 05:11:00 and anything contributing to the usage of java i see as a detrimental factor in software quality, originality and the well-being of programmers 05:12:31 I don't think it's detrimental to software quality, I just want to hit people for using it. 05:13:29 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.178.141] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:13:40 hefner: i've been thinking more in the lines of people being so fed up with it that they actually don't care if they produce crap. it's quite testable and it has good tools for that kind of stuff - technically okay in the quality sense, but not socially 05:14:21 java is cluttered with quite meaningless abstractions that mainly solve a problem in the language itself and don't provide a whole lot tools for solving actual problems 05:14:22 beach: topics that i don't understand and want to know more about all seem to be graduate subjects. i never planned on staying past masters, so i ended up being exposed to what i already knew, except poorly presented (parsers are hard use if-else, LISP is good for recursion, OOP is Java, etc.) 05:14:58 phf: sounds bad. 05:15:21 phf: what university? 05:15:34 beach: university of maryland 05:15:51 phf: That used to be a good CS department. No longer? 05:16:13 LISP is good for functional prog. Scheme is good for recursion (as I don't remember most LISPs enforcing tail recursion optimisations) 05:16:40 it probably still is, for the right audience. I think it's fair to express frustration even if it's a good program. 05:16:48 Axioplase: LISP is not good for much these days. Lisp, on the other hand is good for many things. 05:17:19 and OOP is Smalltalk, not Java 05:18:11 beach: I never studied the case of {lL}{iI}{sS}{pP} and the implied differences 05:18:39 beach: i've met good professors, but it feels like they are constrained by what they are expected to teach 05:18:43 (my impression of the undergraduate CS experience is that it's mostly stupid crap that drags on for years, accented by a few important courses on fundamentals, and if you're lucky you can squeeze in a few interesting electives in your last semester) 05:19:24 nm its in the lisp overlay 05:19:49 airbrush [i=airbrush@216.237.192.179] has joined #lisp 05:21:06 sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:32 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-94-2.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:22:41 beach: i might've complained here before that they introduced a course based on sicp, and it was cut due to 80%-ish failing rate. and it wasn't even intro, but something like 300 level. 05:23:23 phf: erm... wasn't 80% failing rate kind of a hidden point behind SICP? :P 05:23:28 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@130.208.131.159] has quit [] 05:23:58 *p_l* wonders if keeping to car & cdr will be enough for datastructures... 05:24:53 phf: I can't remember whether you already complained about that. 05:25:44 *beach* takes off for work. 05:27:32 right, well, i like to tell that story whenever i can. it's a sore point for me, because i got accepted into moscow state uni, and did one semester there before having to move to US. And that semester was math. analysis, analytical geometry and C programming sort of classes 05:27:43 and then i got into umd and it was ... different 05:29:51 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:31:03 Vegan [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.170] has joined #lisp 05:31:27 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.170] has quit [Client Quit] 05:37:14 ejs [n=eugen@140-178-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:32 p_l: enough for a lisp interpreter 05:38:46 East does university backwards. The hardest is first year, easiest is the last year. The idea is that you should fail half of the students every semester :) 05:41:51 sounds reasonnable 05:46:47 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 05:47:03 hello 05:47:49 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:50 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:49:34 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:54:54 -!- airbrush [i=airbrush@216.237.192.179] has left #lisp 05:54:55 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:02:01 -!- ejs [n=eugen@140-178-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:04:37 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:37 -!- Modius_ is now known as Modius 06:06:44 -!- SandGorgon__ [n=user@122.162.244.60] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:09:01 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-158-39.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:24 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:10:36 good morning 06:12:14 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 06:16:23 splittist [n=dmurray@100-139.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:16:25 morning 06:16:28 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:17:18 jsoft__ [n=Administ@118-93-32-184.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:19:18 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:19:23 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6D45A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:06 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:26:02 mega1 [n=mega@3e44a6a4.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:27:28 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 06:28:19 -!- jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:31:28 -!- araujo 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[n=user@host157-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 08:19:22 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:21:29 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@81-174-49-187.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 08:22:00 I can't remember ... was there a trick to LOOP over a sequence? 08:22:28 not in standard loop, iirc 08:22:33 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:22:44 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:22:59 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:02 reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:23:03 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:29 -!- dwave [n=ask@93.99.113.100] has quit [No route to host] 08:23:56 -!- reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"] 08:24:26 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:28:07 (loop for val in (coerce seq 'list) ...) ;) 08:29:28 yes, I was looking for a conversionless solution. 08:35:31 Xof had a loop path for sequences, i'm pretty sure 08:36:21 there is always SB-SEQUENCE:DOSEQUENCE 08:36:35 and MAP, of course 08:36:50 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 08:37:16 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@81-174-49-187.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [] 08:39:01 Or iterate which does iterate over GENERAL sequences 08:39:07 Does anything exist that acts like map does for functions, except instead of taking a function, it takes macros? 08:40:02 saikat: no, macroes are expanded at compile time 08:41:17 lukego [n=lukegorr@210.11.76.84] has joined #lisp 08:41:33 younder: thanks 08:43:15 loop for x being each element in do ; sbcl-only, sorry 08:44:00 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 08:44:24 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:44:35 wait, why am I saying "sorry"? "sbcl competitive advantage" 08:45:28 saikat: see http://www.faqs.org/faqs/lisp-faq/part2/ [2-21] 08:45:52 Nathan Froyd's post was interesting 08:46:06 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 08:50:26 -!- jao [n=jao@63.Red-83-39-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:51:34 oh right, I was trying to extend slots in clos to allow them to keep their current value, and a previously set one. However, subclassing effective-slot-definition there is an error regarding the allocation of that slot (it has a new variable). Is there an idiomatic way to extend clos for things like that? 08:53:49 I figured that with slot-definitions being an object, it would be possible to override the slot-definition and add a field there 08:57:27 i would do it by adding a separate history slot, and storing the historical values in a vector there 08:57:49 or alternatively always storing a CONS, and keeping the historical value in CDR 08:58:25 for the latter slot-value-using-class should be enough 08:58:51 (plus your own metaclass, etc -- but all the real machinery would live in s-v-u-c) 08:59:20 the idiomatic way is to follow the slot protocols, not to guess 08:59:24 nikodemus: Yes, I've been thinking about that possibility. And it would work, but it seems to me that I'm trying to extent the function of the slot... so it should be somehowe possible to make it live there 08:59:49 s/function/functionality 09:00:52 yes, it is: you just have to do it right, not wrong 09:01:30 Xof: and how would that be? I'm doing this in order to grasp the extending of clos 09:01:42 oh, no, I'm not writing your code for you 09:02:12 I'm just saying that "idiomatic" comes second to "actually working" 09:02:15 Xof: not asking you to write code, but a hint may be welcome (you are currently zealotting) 09:02:30 yes, I thought you might pull a jgrant27 and say that the burden of proof was on me 09:02:45 and that statement is nonsense when one is trying to learn something 09:03:05 (that was about the 'working' vs 'idiomatic') 09:03:53 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 09:04:34 ok. So I'm telling you that it is possible to override the slot definition, but it's fiddly and tricky, and I don't have time to write code. You could take inspiration from a number of sources, for example the tests called "mop*" in sbcl's test suite 09:05:25 I'm sorry if that seems like zealotry to you 09:05:48 another source of inspiration: somewhere in contextl there will be special-variable slot allocation 09:05:55 Xof: oh no, this is good stuff! 09:06:50 Just for curiosity -- nothing related with performance concerns -- why SBCL does implement its own arithmetic framework instead of using something like libgmp? 09:07:40 projections [n=p@88.235.101.2] has joined #lisp 09:08:26 vy: sbcl predates libgmp by about 10 years 09:08:52 (culturally-incompatible licencing would be another reason) 09:08:52 ** and can you browse the sbcl source somewhere handy? (can't find the mop* tests) 09:09:21 um, what? 09:10:19 madnificent: http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl.git?a=tree;f=tests # see, that wasn't so hard, was it? 09:10:42 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-158-152.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:10:51 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:11:03 lichtblau: I know this is absolutely rediculous, but where did you find it? (google didn't say and sbcl.org didn't say either) 09:11:06 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:18 if you had the source, then the tests/ subdirectory would have been fairly obvious 09:12:39 pjb` [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has joined #lisp 09:12:42 -!- pjb [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:12:58 Xof: gentoo seems to deliver sbcl without the tests directory 09:13:27 I agree that it would be helpful if the download page had hints about CVS and git. I think you've been long enough in this channel to have heard about the git mirror though. And the tarball link is very prominent on that page. 09:14:01 tarbal is prominent yes. However, lacking the tests folder in my own directory hinted me that the tests would be separate 09:14:50 I'm sorry, I just don't believe that gentoo's source package for sbcl removes the tests directory 09:15:13 particularly since some of the sbcl ebuild involves running the test suite 09:15:22 slocate didn't find it here where should it be at? 09:15:23 -!- ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:15:31 I'm not using the overlay 09:16:37 not to mention that gentoo doesn't -have- source packages, it downloads SBCL directly from upstream sf.net (no matter whether you have the overlay or not) 09:16:51 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 09:17:30 slocate (usually) indexes the filesystem once a day 09:17:46 Xof: which was about 8 hours ago 09:18:11 *sigh* 09:18:20 sorry, doesn't matter 09:20:35 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-14-157.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:20:57 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-14-157.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:27 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:22:19 how revolted will people be if i zero out array dimensions to invalidate arrays after a bogus ADJUST-ARRAY? 09:23:32 the results are undefined, so wy would people become mad? 09:23:37 why 09:23:41 *madnificent* gets coffee 09:24:00 Xof: ? 09:24:13 wait, can you unpick that a bit for me? 09:24:22 whose array dimensions? 09:26:44 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:26:44 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:26:44 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:26:44 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:26:44 -!- DrForr [n=drforr@eldwist.darkuncle.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:26:44 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:26:44 -!- qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:26:44 -!- rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:26:44 -!- Dazhbog [n=sampo@geek.fi] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:26:44 -!- hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.100] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:27:13 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:28:28 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 09:28:28 A is displaced to adjustable array B 09:28:28 B is adjusted and becomes too small to hold A. ANSI says this is "unspecified" 09:28:33 i can catch this when it happens using weak backpointers, but since A may already be garbage the error at that point may be bogus 09:28:48 -!- BrandonWilson [n=a@216.71.225.62] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:29:05 so, instead, i'm planning to set all dimensions of A to zero, so that typechecks involving its dimensions and any bounds-checked access to it will trap 09:29:14 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 09:29:14 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 09:29:14 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 09:29:14 hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.100] has joined #lisp 09:29:14 rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:14 JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:14 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 09:29:14 qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 09:29:14 Dazhbog [n=sampo@geek.fi] has joined #lisp 09:29:14 DrForr [n=drforr@eldwist.darkuncle.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:21 legumbre_ [n=user@190.133.157.85] has joined #lisp 09:29:33 dwave [n=ask@80.250.5.26] has joined #lisp 09:30:01 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a66064@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a4cde4914daa348e] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 09:30:51 (ditto for the fill-pointer slot, so that LENGTH returns zero, so that (DOTIMES (I (LENGTH V)) (UNSAFE-AREF V I)) will not run at all -- which is nasty, but better then out-of-bounds access, I think 09:31:05 is it possible to resurrect A by displacing it somewhere else? 09:31:11 yes 09:31:19 if so, does scribbling over its dimensions prevent that? 09:31:47 let me rephase that 09:32:28 as the patch stands right now, chances of resurrection are pretty bad 09:32:59 I meant whether it is legal to adjust A (to change its displacement) before accessing any elements of A 09:33:02 but, since i stash away the original dimensions before zeroing them out, the information is not lost 09:33:19 oh, good question 09:33:38 by the spec it is unspecified 09:34:19 it is the adjustment of B itself which is unspecified, so by my interpretation anything that happens to A or B afterwards is unspecified 09:34:31 ok 09:34:34 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-8-121.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:34:43 -!- m4thias [n=user@39.84-48-162.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:35:07 m4thias [n=user@39.84-48-162.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:36:44 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-139.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:38:44 what's the high-level problem that we're trying to solve here? Catching that unspecified behaviour as soon as it happens, or something else? 09:39:28 making sure that accessing A after the adjustment doesn't cause out of bounds memory access 09:39:51 the old solution was to check for this for each bounds check 09:40:25 bounds checking could be done on the underlying vector 09:40:57 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-14-157.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:05 and this can't be done without checking on each access? 09:41:08 incompatible with pretty much all of our array access machinery 09:41:39 i made a (slightly suspect) change yesterday which added the backpointers, and signals an error during ADJUST-ARRAY -- but as James pointed out, since it relies on the weak pointers the error may be imaginary 09:41:53 yes, I followed as much 09:41:59 -!- drwhen [n=d@216-67-73-247-rb1.fai.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 09:42:21 i don't see how to do it without checking on each access 09:42:43 has to be part of the bounds check in some way 09:43:37 currently a displaced array checks bounds against his own dimensions and then it checks against the displaced-to array? 09:43:50 no, just it's own 09:43:58 its, even 09:44:20 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 09:44:26 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:50 and checking the dimensions of the "topmost" array is good, because that means we can elide bounds checks after having checked the type of the topmost array versus the declated type 09:44:58 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-14-157.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:45:10 -!- Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:45:18 loz- [n=loz@47.146.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:45:22 so invalidation is to be handled transitively? 09:46:47 A is displaced to B, B to C then when C is shrunk B is possibly invalidated and then A is also? 09:47:15 yes 09:48:56 I see. The problem with setting dimensions to zero is that it may not be visible to other threads in time. 09:49:43 adjust-array is fundamentally thread-unsafe anyways 09:50:00 it's non-atomic as anything 09:51:08 so any time you are using it with a shared array you should be using a lock 09:51:21 mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7bd88e6f867871b3] has joined #lisp 09:51:50 sure, and you shouldn't shrink an array that's displaced to too much 09:52:08 in neither case a segfault is deserved 09:52:57 ah 09:53:08 I can't see off hand how to fix adjust array without slowing down array accesses to adjustable arrays enormously, though. 09:53:43 one more level of indirection... :) 09:54:11 array-header could just hold a pointer to array-info, which would hold everything array-header now holds 09:54:13 -!- mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7bd88e6f867871b3] has quit [Client Quit] 09:54:18 then we could just replace that atomically 09:54:45 but i'd say this is beyond the scope of what i'm doing about this now 09:54:45 sounds good 09:54:58 mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6873e4637f0bbc89] has joined #lisp 09:55:45 -!- saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [] 09:56:12 so, already existing thread-safety issues aside, zapping the array is not something you hate? 09:56:35 I haven't made up my mind on the zapping part. 09:56:48 but this scheme sounds racy to me. 09:58:03 i don't see how it is any racier than adjust-array is historically 09:59:18 oh, nice. sf.net changed their color scheme again 09:59:31 is there a lock on each adjustable array that is acquired while adding, removing the weak pointers and also while propagating invalidation? 09:59:32 would it be mad to use locking for any array access on a non-simple array? 09:59:42 lichtblau: yes 10:00:13 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:35 weak pointers are actually cas'd in place 10:01:23 nikodemus pasted "weak pointer saving" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79815 10:01:25 when propagating invalidation you must guard against concurrent access 10:01:26 Okay. Can you explain why? In a Java comparison, Java arrays correspond to Lisp's simple arrays, while Vector (and other classes) correspond vaguely to SBCL's array headers. Many of the latter classes have locking. 10:02:40 lichtblau: it was decided later that locking does not belong to that level 10:02:59 that's why there are new, unsynchronized collection classes. 10:03:39 my guess is that it's a 3x-20x penalty 10:04:13 I see. So you can get RuntimeExceptions with the newer classes if you aren't careful locking those, but obviously the VM still does array bound checks making the implementation safe in a low-level sense. 10:04:34 yes, that's a sane goal that sbcl shares 10:04:38 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:59 -!- nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:05:43 mega1: eugh, right 10:06:43 whenever CAS pops, I cannot help but think that someone is being too clever. 10:06:50 *pops up 10:07:39 I cannot get it right for the first N tries. 10:08:02 plus, this use is not that performance critical. 10:08:24 looking at array.lisp and the code that deals with non-simple arrays, i'm pretty sure that this case is the least the thread safety worries in the area 10:09:14 I'm only aware of the adjust-array problems. 10:10:08 which mean fill-pointer problems 10:11:25 those can't lead to segfault, can they? 10:14:49 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 10:14:51 G'day! 10:15:04 T1 is doing vector-push with a large fill-pointer. T2 sets fill-pointer to a small value and adjust-arrays to that size -> out of bounds memory write 10:15:21 (by T1) 10:15:57 HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:15:58 danlei [n=user@pD9E2F36C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:09 that does not sound any different than the previous adjust-array bug 10:17:45 I mean how is the fill pointer relevant here? 10:18:20 -!- mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6873e4637f0bbc89] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 10:19:21 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["BitchX-1.1-final -- just do it."] 10:20:00 Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-14-157.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:05 in the end, it will be a (setf (aref vector fill-pointer) ...), but that's no different by the index being the fill-pointer? 10:20:48 yes. my point was that even if adjust-array was safe, calling adjust-array in parallel with fill pointer code remains unsafe 10:21:32 ok. i can't see how to make the upwards propagation safe without lock or indirection 10:21:56 if normal array access is safe in face of adjust-array then fill-pointers cannot wreak havoc either 10:22:01 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.18] has joined #lisp 10:22:07 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-14-157.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:32 well, currently they explicitly disable bounds checking for the fill pointer after they have checked that the fill pointer is legal 10:22:36 which is racy 10:23:05 now, that's a problem 10:23:37 I've been meaning to visit array.lisp for a while ... 10:25:03 i suspect we should be using WITH-VECTOR-DATA there -- then we would know that the offset we compute remains valid even if there is a parrallel ADJUST-ARRAY 10:25:47 mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f31b4f0ce402dc89] has joined #lisp 10:25:59 provided that w-v-d is not racy which it is if I understand correctly 10:26:28 and that's what the additional indirection would fix. 10:27:04 elias` [n=me@194.81.255.254] has joined #lisp 10:27:16 yes 10:28:12 so, if i put additional indirection on the agenda, do i get a free pass for adding one more thread-unsafe edge case to the mess that is adjust-array? (that being the upwards propagation) 10:30:13 Is there a convention on how to keep failed assertions from prompting when there is no programmer/user to answer the prompt? 10:30:54 -!- xan-afk_ is now known as xan 10:32:11 scheduler [n=schedule@80.217.244.191] has joined #lisp 10:32:28 nikodemus: yes, if thread safety of that hack is fixable. And for that the additional indirection may just be the ticket. 10:32:34 in the toplevel loop of you application (let ((*debugger-hook* #'kill-application-with-message-to-the-user)) ...) or something like that 10:32:54 right'o 10:34:02 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:34:22 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:34:47 chrnybo: Yes, you invoke the corresponding restart. 10:34:54 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:35:05 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:37:38 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-14-157.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:39:13 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.18] has quit ["Valete!"] 10:39:26 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-14-157.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:41:57 mega1: one easy thread-safe way to handle this would be to just cons up a new array, and point the displaced-from there -- but then the user would never get any notice of a problem 10:43:10 nikodemus: there is still no guarentee that the other thread will actually see the new value 10:43:19 so it may happily segfault with the old one. 10:44:48 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:45:02 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:15 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 10:46:27 mega1: nope, the old value is good 10:46:43 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:46:46 oh, wait, no 10:46:47 feh 10:46:54 adjust-array must return the same object for adjustables 10:47:01 yep 10:47:35 though i suppose we could store the final underlying vector as the array-data-vector of the displaced-from array 10:47:37 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:43 that would be thread safe 10:48:10 but would make for very confusing behaviour 10:49:25 oh noes. i need more coffee. of course there is still no guarantee that the other thread will see the new value 10:51:38 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit ["KVIrc 3.2.6 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/"] 10:53:39 -!- mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f31b4f0ce402dc89] has left #lisp 10:53:53 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:54:47 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:03 mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fc2f131886990b05] has joined #lisp 10:55:35 What's the matter of discourse? 10:55:46 -!- mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fc2f131886990b05] has left #lisp 10:58:11 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:58:34 my adjust-array hackery 10:59:09 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 11:02:46 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-182-191-195.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:29 -!- dwave [n=ask@80.250.5.26] has quit ["Be back later"] 11:09:25 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:09:48 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@82.181.229.41] has joined #lisp 11:09:53 dwave [n=ask@80.250.5.26] has joined #lisp 11:11:26 Now that almost all (new) computers have cameras built in I hope they'll soon be able to distinguish between 'I've gone to get a coffee, feel free to switch the screen off' and 'I' 11:11:41 m staring intently at the screen, please don't switch it off' 11:11:57 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:12:02 -!- SandGorgon__ is now known as SandGorgon 11:13:06 nikodemus: would the "extra level of indirection for array headers" done in the name of thread safety slow down simple multidimensional arrays? 11:13:33 it certainly would not speed them up 11:13:38 boo 11:14:19 but in parallel with that i was vaguely hoping to make simple multidimensional arrays look like vectors and not like arrays 11:15:53 i'm still a bit fuzzy on the details, but something like this is what i have in mind: rank|widetag total-size dimension0 dimension1 ... dimensionN data 11:16:32 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has quit [] 11:16:37 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:17:00 ooo, neat. don't forget about the magic bits hashtables store for GC above the widetag, though. 11:18:01 yeah, it would be rank|magic|widetag, but our array-rank-limit fits in 16 bits, so that's not a problem 11:18:30 -!- loz- [n=loz@47.146.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:18:34 (on 32bit platforms at least -- and on 64bits there is more space in the header, so it should all work out) 11:19:37 ok, the new trapping stuff has been committed 11:21:37 faster nd arrays would be very welcome 11:21:46 I worry about running out of widetags, though 11:22:52 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 11:23:21 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-daf83dd60fec4271] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:26:04 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:27:30 pkhuong: it was basically converting most declarations to use simple arrays and going forward from there. 11:29:04 yeah, good job, froydnj. 11:30:08 (I find it a shame that jgrant27's response was not "I'm sorry to have wasted your time by tediously drawing false inferences", but hey) 11:31:11 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6D45A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:21 rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-109.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:37:37 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@210.11.76.84] has quit [] 11:40:20 -!- HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:44:15 ljosa [n=ljosa@gm3b6-dd5.broad.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 11:47:28 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:49:30 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 11:50:51 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-163.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:51:16 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student166-11.hampshire.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:52:58 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 11:54:48 jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 11:56:56 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@82.181.229.41] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:57:22 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-156.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:57:56 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:20 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:03:47 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:05:45 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 12:06:07 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 12:07:21 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:08:48 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 12:09:20 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:12 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:11:26 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:00 that response appear rather cocky 12:12:20 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181149179.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:14:40 nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:55 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.170] has quit ["leaving"] 12:16:18 that's enough cll for me to last for the next 6 months, i think 12:17:06 -!- dwave [n=ask@80.250.5.26] has quit [] 12:18:44 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-158-152.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 12:19:59 dwave [n=ask@80.250.5.26] has joined #lisp 12:20:54 -!- Jasko2 is now known as Jasko 12:21:05 carbocalm [n=user@204.101.159.235] has joined #lisp 12:21:57 nikodemus: Why doesn't the new expansion of with-timeout also emit a code-deletion note? 12:22:12 -!- nrivers [n=dsandu@CPE000625d836a0-CM0018c0b3d06a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:23:17 bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.234.32] has joined #lisp 12:23:29 1. because the body is not copied, 2. because python's source location smarts are good enough not to complain about the rest 12:24:15 -!- bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.234.32] has quit [Client Quit] 12:24:44 Ah right I remember, the smartness of note-block-deletion 12:25:17 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:42 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 12:40:00 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:43:05 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.153.54] has joined #lisp 12:43:36 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:44:38 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 12:45:30 what was the link the the new boinkmarks in progress? 12:46:21 http://sbcl.boinkor.net/boinkmarks/index 12:46:35 thanks 12:47:00 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:47:47 what is the "best" or "standard" doc-generator for lisp? 12:47:53 or is it more a matter of taste 12:48:28 ooh, pretty 12:48:38 Davse_Ba1se [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 12:48:54 Numlock: there is a large body of opinion that the best doc-generator is a human plus a text editor. 12:49:24 -!- dwave [n=ask@80.250.5.26] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:49:31 :) 12:49:40 Numlock: I think it's a matter of taste largely because the real, ultimate, perfect solution has arrived yet. 12:49:53 But texinfo-docstrings is cute, because it allows you pick per-function documentation into a larger hand-written document. 12:50:08 octoberdan [n=dgreen@64.206.6.254] has joined #lisp 12:50:31 Is #'(lambda (..) ..) really better style than (lambda (..)..)? 12:50:32 I'm also partial to my more Javadoc-like solution called atdoc, although it also has some flaws. (Some would consider the similarity to Javadoc a flaw. :-)) 12:50:43 I guess that's a highly subjective question... but I'm looking for opinions anyways 12:50:58 I prefer (lambda ... but thats cause I've started in scheme 12:51:00 Numlock: ... and that was meant to be "has NOT arrived yet", of course 12:51:17 yes, thought so :) 12:52:01 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 12:53:19 idurand [n=idurand@chataigne.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 12:53:46 The thread around http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/editor-hints-devel/2008-December/000035.html has a lively discussion about recent ideas on the subject. 12:54:21 octoberdan: I nearly always see (lambda ... 12:55:25 for an example of atdoc's output, see http://common-lisp.net/project/xuriella/atdoc/index.html 12:56:14 -!- ljosa [n=ljosa@gm3b6-dd5.broad.mit.edu] has quit [] 12:57:30 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 12:57:39 not specifically with regard to Lisp ones, but I've found that a lot of doc-generators are very elaborate but then produce bad-looking output that barely acknowledges the existence of css and stuff like that 12:58:11 your atdoc output looks pretty nice, though I take it it doesn't have features for multi-page docs 12:59:55 -!- Davse_Ba1se [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:00:18 true. It can also split output into one page per package and function (http://www.lichteblau.com/atdoc/example/multi-page/index.html), but there's no middle ground between the single page and multi page output formats. 13:00:19 HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:00:49 that's fairly nice, actually 13:01:10 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:01:17 and then, links across pages is a hard problem when it's fully general 13:01:39 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-182-191-195.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 13:01:58 hey, it's the blocks world, haha 13:02:02 haven't seen that thing in forever 13:04:01 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp296.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 13:04:24 lichtblau: did you do something more with my enhanced texinfo extractor? 13:05:05 s/texinfo/docstring/ 13:05:25 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:05:57 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp296.studby.uio.no] has quit [Client Quit] 13:06:30 nikodemus: my work stalled early this year. I'd like to continue, but haven't found the time yet. Currently, there are http://repo.or.cz/w/parse-docstrings.git and its texinfo-frontend http://repo.or.cz/w/texinfo-docstrings.git but the latter doesn't actually work yet. 13:09:19 macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:11:05 when should a package name start with 'cl-'? 13:11:06 dtangren [n=dtangren@69.176.201.226] has joined #lisp 13:11:32 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@69.176.201.226] has quit [Client Quit] 13:12:53 odd-numbered Tuesdays. no seriously, probably never unless it's a low-level language extension. but it's kinda a matter of opinion. 13:13:07 if i've written a package providing bindings to , is it appropriate to call the asdf system cl-? 13:13:15 actually, it might be, yeah 13:13:31 I'm not authoritative, I'm just venturing my opinion :) 13:14:20 thanks, good to get some confirmation... it *looks* like the cl- convention is about bindings and interoperability 13:14:49 but maybe that's bogus 13:15:20 macdice: I think so. 13:15:32 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:16:15 should the asdf system name and the package name necessarily match, ie do i need to use cl- as the package name, (cl-:bar 42)? 13:16:24 wow, so nick levine is writing an o'reilly lisp book! 13:16:28 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:16:38 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:58 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 13:17:02 Good afternoon. 13:17:03 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:47 I think in the specific case of the cl- prefix, it's okay to leave it out of the package name, because it kinda goes without saying 13:19:10 ordinarily I'd say they should be the same 13:19:31 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:19:42 antifuchs: yes. I wonder if he means COMMON Lisp on a mobile phone... 13:19:46 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:52 -!- nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:20:15 hopefully; he wrote it's going to introduce CL, so it woulnd't make much sense to show newLISP running on a mobile (: 13:22:24 antifuchs: perhaps he'll put ECL on a jailbroken iPhone (; 13:22:31 that would be nice 13:22:40 can i ask a simple question again please?im totally new to lisp(trying to learn)and to maths..i cant understand one thing in calculating the square root of a number 13:22:53 go ahead and ask (: 13:22:58 thanks 13:23:00 mrz [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-417fbb6d7ef84d5e] has joined #lisp 13:23:00 ill paste 13:23:11 S = 125348 13:23:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methods_of_computing_square_roots 13:23:26 minion: lisppaste 13:23:26 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 13:24:02 -!- mrz is now known as mziulu 13:24:05 can you please check out the example in there 13:24:25 -!- mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-417fbb6d7ef84d5e] has left #lisp 13:24:49 what i dont understand is how does it get the "n" number 13:25:04 D=6=2.2+2 13:25:07 for example 13:25:17 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087A6D6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:19 if i have a 8 digit number in my hand what should i do? 13:25:38 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:26:06 if you don't get an answer here you might try a math channel, which would be a more appropriate place 13:26:14 ok 13:26:22 you haven't said which of the several methods on that page you're looking at? 13:26:23 sorry if im breaking the rules 13:26:51 im looking at the first example 13:27:04 how do you give a defclass a docstring ? 13:27:13 mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-417fbb6d7ef84d5e] has joined #lisp 13:27:43 nvm :x 13:27:46 Vegan [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.170] has joined #lisp 13:28:14 oh 13:28:14 where it says 13:28:14 "If D is even, D = 2n + 2"? 13:28:37 it lets D = 6 and solves the equation 13:28:42 6 = 2n + 2, so n = 2 13:29:18 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:29:28 Hi, how can I define a class which inherits from hash-table, something like (defclass foo (hash-table) ()) gives an error? 13:29:38 minion: clhs defclass 13:29:54 dwave [n=ask@80.250.5.26] has joined #lisp 13:30:05 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633642.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 13:30:16 nevermind. Numlock: there is a class option to defclass which takes :documentation 13:30:23 dankna:thanks i m just dumb 13:30:36 cant put all the info together 13:31:12 Numlock: see http://www.apl.jhu.edu/~hall/Lisp-Notes/Defclass.html 13:32:05 thx, already bumped into it 13:32:09 should look first, ask then 13:32:12 :) 13:32:17 afterwards* 13:32:28 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 13:32:50 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-156.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:32:50 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-109.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:32:50 -!- schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9dcab8e2abd0a41c] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:32:50 -!- dankna [n=d@ool-43516bc9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:32:50 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:32:50 -!- ampleyfly [n=ampleyfl@mustang.lysator.liu.se] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:32:50 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.79.29] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:32:50 -!- guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:32:50 -!- stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:32:50 -!- sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:32:50 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:32:50 -!- rodge [n=roderic@129.10.116.123] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:32:50 -!- glogic [n=glogic@5ess.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:32:50 -!- tic_ [n=tic@c83-249-195-183.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:32:50 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@nttkyo454079.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:32:50 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:32:50 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:33:01 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-156.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:33:01 rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-109.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:33:01 schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9dcab8e2abd0a41c] has joined #lisp 13:33:01 dankna [n=d@ool-43516bc9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:01 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 13:33:01 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@nttkyo454079.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:33:01 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.79.29] has joined #lisp 13:33:01 stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:01 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:01 guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 13:33:01 glogic [n=glogic@5ess.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:01 tic_ [n=tic@c83-249-195-183.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:33:01 ampleyfly [n=ampleyfl@mustang.lysator.liu.se] has joined #lisp 13:33:01 sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:33:01 nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 13:33:01 rodge [n=roderic@129.10.116.123] has joined #lisp 13:33:01 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 13:33:51 does someone understand emacs/slime indentation stuff? 13:34:06 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 13:34:10 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:34:10 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:11 c|mell [n=cmell@y192035.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 13:34:20 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:34 i'm fed up with emacs messing up the indentation of VOP :GENERATOR clauses 13:34:56 any ideas what to tell emacs to get them right? 13:35:22 no clue. I just put up with it when Emacs indents something and I don't like it. 13:35:55 something like (put 'function 'common-lisp-indent-function 1)? 13:37:01 yes, something... but what? 13:37:10 Numlock: in lw I had to add t to the generic function documentation in order to extract the documentation of the class, as opposed to jhall's examples. 13:37:31 Numlock: as in (documentation (find-class 'Square) t) 13:37:39 giovans [n=giovans@195.130.246.6] has joined #lisp 13:37:54 well, I'm trying to generate some java-doc like stuff with albert 13:38:17 albert works fine and converts it to xml, I'm wrestling with jade now 13:38:20 to convert it to html 13:38:58 nikodemus: i just used this with lispbuilder-sql, for indenting the keywords (like quit-event ildle etc.) correctly ... 13:39:03 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-60-75.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:29 wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-144-151.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:02 -!- giovans [n=giovans@195.130.246.6] has left #lisp 13:41:43 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:44 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:44:19 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.153.54] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:46:03 (put :generator 'common-lisp-indent-function 1) 13:46:12 seems to be close enough, thanks! 13:46:20 heh, cool 13:50:27 davazp [n=user@79.153.148.56] has joined #lisp 13:50:38 -!- mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-417fbb6d7ef84d5e] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 13:54:17 paw` [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 13:54:42 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:54:48 erm lispbuilder-sdl, of course. glad it helps. 13:59:53 idurand: you can't 14:00:56 too bad! so I have to put the hash-table in a slot (defclass foo () ((table ...)))) 14:01:27 yes 14:01:29 idurand: what kind of object is "foo" going to be? 14:01:32 not without Xof's recent subclassing idea anyway 14:01:33 idurand: that's the only portable way, yes. Implementations may allow you to do scarier stuff. 14:01:45 lichtblau: even without that you can substruct 14:02:09 ok thanks all 14:02:18 but mvilleneuve's question is pertinent. Is your new object actually meant to be a new class of hash table, or is it just that each instance has a hash-table associated with it? 14:03:06 Xof: you mean like (defstruct (my-hash-table (:include hash-table)) extra-slot)? 14:03:26 yeah 14:03:32 not portable, but 14:03:54 also you are out of luck for inheriting useful constructors 14:04:42 nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:48 G'morning all. 14:05:02 I have a set of automata transitions that I want to store in a hash-table. I just wanted to be able to type the parameters of the methods by a new type (transitions) instead of hash-table 14:05:10 does gencgc access a raw slot in hash tables? If so, that sub-structure-class would break GC. 14:05:31 lichtblau: ew horrible. 14:05:54 no, wait, surely it only does that if the hash table access is "wrong" 14:06:19 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:06:21 if the hash table access in gc is *(obj+size-raw-offset) then it continues to work, right? 14:06:55 idurand: Create a new class and store a hash table in it, then use delegation to call the hash table functions. 14:07:21 plage types faster than I do :) 14:07:25 what is a delegation? 14:08:07 idurand: (defmethd my-stuff (x y) (gethash (hash-table x) y)) 14:08:19 okay, I take that back. The issue exists in principle, but we don't actually look at any raw hash table slots in GC. 14:08:57 Genesis outputs a "struct hash_table" that doesn't take inheritance into account, but actually calls the raw slots raw1, raw2, raw3... because I didn't see a need for anything more clever. 14:09:01 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl496.nas932.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 14:09:11 plage: second arg of GETHASH is the hash-table, though 14:09:20 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-67.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:09:27 michaelw: I was sure I would get that wrong. 14:09:45 idurand: essentially, each new generic function has a method that calls the corresponding hash-table function on the hash table stored in the instance of your own object. 14:09:48 So, I went looking at "object systems in the cold core" this morning. 14:10:07 nikodemus: Example? 14:10:15 of what? 14:10:27 I'm simultaneously horrified at what happens with conditions and impressed that they interoperate. 14:10:35 nikodemus: (for the define-vop misindentation; notice that with slime-sbcl-exts there's a place for sbcl-specific indentation specs) 14:10:54 tcr: i had no idea such a thing existed 14:11:36 but without it at least generator bodies are indented too far to the right, which the PUT hack is enough to redress 14:12:05 lichtblau: if instead genesis outputted an opaque type and accessors which did the nasty pointer access, then things would Just Work, right? 14:12:32 nikodemus: I once planned to have some magic for deftransform such when you're on a parameter in the lambda list, the corresponding type in the other list would get highlighted. 14:12:33 nikodemus: Emacs will happily do that to any (:generator ...) form, though 14:12:52 michaelw: sure 14:13:30 What's New In Slime This Week/Month/Year would be nice -- because i at least have given up trying to follow ChangeLog 14:14:32 michaelw: 99.999% of :generator forms i see use that indentation. i'll worry about the oddballs when i run into them 14:14:58 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 14:14:58 this is far less irritating then (default being colored and indented as if it was a definition... 14:15:02 Xof: yes, that might be the right solution should the need for raw slot access in GC ever arise 14:15:07 I just found out that the slime-indentation contrib gets LOOP indentation much better. For example COLLECT after a WHEN is indented by two spaces 14:16:06 nikodemus pasted "this is the loop indentation that i'm pretty happy with" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79825 14:16:29 tcr: that sounds wrong to me 14:16:52 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:17:01 COLLECT should align with WHEN 14:17:07 really? 14:17:25 well, that's the way i've always indented it 14:17:27 Why? It's what I would do manually before 14:17:32 *dlowe* usually likes all the LOOP keywords to align with each other 14:17:46 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 14:17:52 No sense in implying nesting when there really isn't any 14:17:56 what about (loop ... if foo collect bar else append quux) ? 14:18:06 nikodemus annotated #79825 "my preference" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79825#1 14:18:27 jlf` [n=user@adsl-99-137-140-93.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:18 dlowe: but there is nesting 14:19:18 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 14:19:37 quick quiz: what does (loop for x in list when x do y do z) do? 14:19:48 nikodemus annotated #79825 "like this " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79825#2 14:20:06 nikodemus: so, for (loop when (foo) collect (something) collect (something-else)) ? 14:20:21 nikodemus: what about my form? 14:20:24 sorry, duplicate with Xof question 14:20:26 Xof: My guess would be that the second DO is not part of WHEN, you can achieve that by an explicit AND 14:20:26 yeah 14:20:36 tcr: that's correct. Now let's see nikodemus indent it 14:20:56 -!- Athas` is now known as Athas 14:20:57 the exact same way as before -- align all keywords 14:21:02 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@59.39.243.170] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:21:27 loop indentation is fragile enough that i'm not going to trust it to enhance my understanding of the semantics 14:21:34 I'm impressed with your consistency but not with your indentation style 14:21:45 or possibly "by" 14:22:17 well, if slime now has a consistent nesting indentation for loop, i'm happy to learn to live with it 14:22:21 but when it breaks... 14:22:55 meh. the trivial alignment indentation is the only one i have seen to work consistently so far 14:23:07 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 14:23:11 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:23:15 oops 14:23:34 *stassats* uses alignment indentation 14:23:37 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:23:53 well, so do I 14:23:56 but that's not the point 14:24:15 which is? 14:24:26 kglovern [n=kgn@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:24:39 "use iterate"? 14:24:40 that one which provides clues to the nesting structure of conditional clauses would be better 14:24:57 nikodemus: If you'd like to see other sbcl-specific extensions, just request them. (Having said that I haven't look at your suggestions from last week...) 14:25:12 -!- kglovern [n=kgn@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 14:25:42 yes. if and when it handles the whole mess that is loop... :) but if it occasionally indents in a misleading manner, it doesn't really help 14:25:49 The next things I'm working on is to revamp the inspection layout for classes. I find the [set value] [...] buttons after each slot disturbing. 14:26:24 I'll also make `v' in the inspector increase the overall details (i.e. make it truncate less and less) 14:26:46 *splittist* catches up and recoils from nikodemus' loop non-indenting... 14:26:49 and I'll add an option to sort the slots according to the superclass that a slot is inherited from 14:26:58 tcr: here's a trivial (well, maybe) one. in the inspector, i'd like hitting enter on a slot name to inspect the contents of the slot rather than slot symbol 14:27:15 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 14:27:43 because i don't use mouse all that much, and moving right instead of just to the right row is a break in the flow 14:28:04 tcr: please keep the default sorted in slot location order 14:28:27 the slots are sorted by name currently 14:28:32 oh 14:28:35 but yeah sure that's the default 14:28:54 actually, displaying the slot location beside each slot would be nice occasionally 14:29:02 How that? 14:29:28 but just being able to hit enter on the right row in the inspector is My Big Wish 14:29:53 So you can use C-e? 14:30:03 Notice that you can somewhat easily navigate by using TAB 14:30:04 tcr: when wondering why code that is too clever for its own good goes wrong :) 14:30:14 ... ";; KLUDGE"? I'm supposed to guess what the kludge is based on the surrounding code and exactly that much commentary? 14:30:37 huh. so there is going to be a lisp book from O'Reilly. 14:31:10 nyef: the comment is a meta-kludge (I still can't get myself to rhyme it with 'luge') 14:31:21 tcr: huh. never noticed the TAB navigation. C-e is still distracting, and as an UI niggle, i'd still prefer to hit enter anywhere on the row 14:31:58 but TAB is not bad. cursor jumping is a bit distracting, but not bad 14:32:03 -!- schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9dcab8e2abd0a41c] has quit ["mibbit.com: "Back to real life""] 14:32:06 nullwork [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:26 nikodemus: I'll fix the C-e one, that's probably just a space that gets inserted too much. 14:32:44 nikodemus: I'm a bit reluctant about the slot-name thingie, and making the whole line be a pointer to the slot-value 14:33:45 . 14:34:02 sorry 14:34:10 nikodemus: Shift-TAB is backwards btw 14:34:21 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:34:59 nikodemus: Sorry to be so late in the displaced array discussion. As I undertand it, when A is displaced to B, a weak backpointer to A is set up, but A may contain garbage when accessed after a wrong ADJUST-ARRAY on B. My question is: how can A contain garbage if you could detect the wrong ADJUST-ARRAY on time ? 14:35:07 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 14:35:30 kuwabara: it can't contain complete garbage, but A could be unreachable but not yet claimed 14:36:13 Xof: but the reason that made it unreachable should have destroyed the backpointer shouldn't it ? 14:36:35 no, the backpointer is destroyed when the GC notices that the object is otherwise unreachable 14:37:13 Xof, oh, so it's unreachable, but the GC had not noticed it yet ? 14:37:20 if GC doesn't actually run between the user losing the last (non-weak) reference to A and doing ADJUST-ARRAY on B, a spurious error would come up 14:39:06 if the GC has not run, that memory is still considered as a live object, so it can't have been used for something else and contain garbage ? 14:41:19 -!- dwave [n=ask@80.250.5.26] has quit ["Be back later"] 14:42:11 kuwabara: that's not the issue. the problem is that the object may be unreachable, and hence there is no real error, but because the GC hasn't broken the weak pointer yet we would signal a bogus error 14:42:42 nikodemus: ok, now I understand. thanks for the explanation. 14:46:55 I'm happy to report that something (the x86 dx vector commit in all likelihood) since 1.0.28 fixed the frequent crashes with matlisp. 14:48:50 mega1: cool! 14:48:58 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 14:49:35 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 14:49:46 this has been bothering me for quite long, but I thought it's related to using larger than 2G heap on x86 14:52:23 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:55:24 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 14:56:29 milanj [n=milan@79.101.169.228] has joined #lisp 14:57:01 mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-b5628f7e2270f181] has joined #lisp 15:01:30 -!- mziulu 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joined #lisp 15:59:09 saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 15:59:43 -!- jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit ["sleep time"] 16:00:12 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-145-45.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:01:40 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:03:32 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless107.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:03:58 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-28-240.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:04:23 mjf [n=mjf@213.220.192.98] has joined #lisp 16:05:12 -!- dysinger [n=tim@64.65.187.250] has quit [] 16:07:31 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:09:23 marsijanin pasted "slots types in clos" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79836 16:10:38 marsijanin: Why dump that to the channel if you're not here? 16:10:49 benny [n=benny@i577A0BAC.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:11:58 why talk to someone who's not here? 16:12:13 nyef: maybe he's going to start using lisppaste as an irc client like you :-) 16:13:28 Unlikely. 16:13:56 -!- matimago [n=user@88.170.236.224] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:13:56 willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:14:39 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@nblzone-240-27.nblnetworks.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:14:48 is there a reason why sbcl does not treat clos slot types like ccl for example ? 16:15:04 it inserts safety checks if you compile the class definition with high safety 16:15:06 how does ccl treat them? 16:15:10 is that what you mean? 16:15:18 -!- idurand [n=idurand@chataigne.labri.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:16:36 ccl signal wrong type or something like that 16:16:41 in default settings 16:17:05 Xof, thanks 16:17:45 i actually never did that (compile class with high safety) 16:19:34 but i expected behavior like ccl, because if you compile function with declared arguments type in default settings it does signal wrong-type 16:19:40 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:19:42 on sbcl 16:20:08 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D3BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:33 but on the other hand, ccl does do assert on functions in default settings 16:21:15 *ccl does't assert on funs 16:22:51 hm, i don't think we actually document our CLOS slot type checking policy anywhere 16:24:01 i just expected that because of that "declarations as assertions" policy 16:24:59 it's not an unreasonable assumption -- it just happens that CLOS slot type checking is fairly expensive 16:25:36 yes, understand, i wound not trade that then :) 16:25:51 strange is that ccl does it other way around 16:25:56 dysinger [n=tim@c-24-19-45-181.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:01 does assert on clos types and not on functions 16:26:35 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:29:28 chi_square [n=kye@web014051.wireless.mcgill.ca] has joined #lisp 16:32:29 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 16:34:08 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 16:36:12 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless74.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:36:57 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:39:40 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx07915.ashbuva.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:38 truthair [n=none@delph.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:41:03 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75.149.33.105] has joined #lisp 16:42:42 Anyone have any good suggestions for books/sites/tutorials to start out learning lisp? 16:42:54 minion: pcl? 16:42:55 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 16:44:14 stassats: I'll go check it out, thanks. 16:45:09 http://www.faqs.org/faqs/lisp-faq/part1/ 16:45:23 truthair: common lisp: a gentle introduction to symbolic computation, touretzky covers the basics nicely (relatively slow pace) 16:45:38 minion: gentle? 16:45:39 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 16:46:57 I don't suppose there's a "deep end first" introductiory text, is there? 16:47:28 pcl is for people who already know how to program some language (well) 16:47:39 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-70.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 16:48:39 Someone should write "Common Lisp: A Mental Ass-kicking for the Advanced Programmer" 16:48:46 ok, CLOS slot types handling at least minimally documented 16:48:55 -!- nikodemus_ is now known as nikodemus 16:49:01 I have enough programming experience in other languages to be confident that'll work fine. (And also some functional programming basic, i.e. my lambda calculus class and some trivial stuff in ocaml) 16:49:22 dlowe: not necessarily "ass-kicking", but how about PAIP? 16:50:05 danlei: depends on how many chapters you skip :) Yeah, PAIP is really good. I wish I'd started with that. 16:50:24 dlowe: the 'hardcore lisp' book THINKS it's that, at any rate 16:52:38 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-56-117.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:52:40 dlove: from LOL "Let over Lambda is one of the most harcore computer programming books out there." 16:53:53 younder: and we all know how ridiculous hardcore kids can look 16:53:56 gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:54:04 younder: and my dog groks quantum mechanics 16:54:23 google image search for 'hardcore lisp' gives some amusing results 16:54:40 minion: paip? 16:54:41 paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/paip 16:54:58 Yes, I don't neccesairly agree with his appoach, it is more a extension of Paul Grahams "On Lisp" 16:56:11 But you will get your skill in understanding macros tested to the max 16:56:40 From the reviews of LOL that I've read, you'll more likely get your skills at proofreading tested to the max. 16:57:08 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:25 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:58:32 Reviews are mixed.. I am more abivalent. I would perhaps recoend it to someone who alredy has 4-5 other Lisp books as some things lke read macros arn't really discussed anywhere else 16:58:53 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:59:11 -!- saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [] 17:00:22 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 17:01:30 bzwahr [n=user@bloc-bzwahr-lap.tamu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:01:48 I's full of, sometimes silly, opinions. So I took it with a grain of salt. Seeing it was from Lulu a self publishing company and has probably never seen a editor. 17:02:24 I can start a hunchentoot server, but I can't stop it. Is anyone able to do so properly? 17:03:10 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:24 younder: in pg's ANSI Common Lisp is a (brief) introduction to read macros 17:04:48 bzwahr: what version of hunchentoot are you using ? 17:04:53 -!- mjf [n=mjf@213.220.192.98] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:05:05 Is there a short way to copy a multidimensional array? 17:05:19 dlowe: Standby, I'll paste it. 17:05:26 That means no, I think :p 17:05:29 fe[nl]ix: from gentoo portage 0.15.7 17:05:36 *dlowe* can use row-major-aref. 17:05:43 dlowe: It's a small function using displaced arrays. 17:05:58 dlowe: I was actually going to write it in a scratch buffer and then paste. 17:06:02 tmh: I need a real copy that I can write to without affecting the original 17:06:03 dlowe: flatten it with a displacement array and copy-seq 17:06:06 fe[nl]ix: I've seen people setting it to a variable, that doesn't work, I've seen people just calling it straight to start it, but no way to stop it, etc. 17:06:07 dlowe: using sbcl ? 17:06:07 ah, I see. 17:06:22 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:06:23 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 17:06:26 fe[nl]ix: yes 17:06:59 bzwahr: I've unmasked 1.0.0 . you might as well use that first 17:07:04 alexandria:copy-array 17:07:16 lichtblau: even better. thanks. 17:07:17 nikodemus pasted "copying trick" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79838 17:08:08 Alexandria, I keep meaning to look at that. 17:08:31 fe[nl]ix: that's weird, I have dev-lisp/hunchentoot in my package.keywords, but its not installed 1.0.0 17:08:38 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 17:08:44 fe[nl]ix: I thought i had the latest 17:08:46 bzwatr, when you stop it it just hang ? 17:09:05 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 17:09:19 milanj: no, I can't get the stop or stop-server commands to work at all. stop-server wants a server argument, but no matter what I give it, it complains and says it isn't proper 17:09:20 dlowe: create a new array of identical dimensions, then copy the first array's underlying simple vector to the second's 17:09:29 bzwahr: update the repository 17:09:43 fe[nl]ix: its in the repository, I'm looking at the ebuild right now 17:09:50 On Amazon : "On Lisp" $733.76 new ; $98.98 used. Why is this book no longer being published? The publisher doesn't even need to do a market study, the new price alone indicates there is demand. 17:10:12 tmh: it's available in pdf form from the author's website, iirc 17:10:21 tmh: http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisp.html <- there 17:10:27 tmh: free online 17:10:43 and there's probably not that much demand 17:11:14 I have the PDF, but I would like to kill some trees and have the figures, hold it in my hand, spill coffee on it, etc. 17:11:21 and there was also on lisp on lulu 17:11:39 tmh: well, then you have to get it from the used&new extortionists (: 17:11:39 tmh: print it ^_^ 17:11:57 http://www.lulu.com/content/3060872 17:12:01 or use a PoD service, like lulu 17:12:09 the figures are available only in the print edition, so that's your only option 17:12:29 fe[nl]ix: ah, hunchentoot-1.0.0 is masked by package.mask 17:12:37 the nine that are missing from the postscript file 17:12:37 fe[nl]ix: I usually don't install though, only things masked by keyword 17:12:43 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 17:12:59 bzwahr: please update the repository and it will be unmasked 17:13:37 lichtblau: Do you depend on Alexandria? 17:13:39 fe[nl]ix: you mean just run an emerge --sync? I do that daily, so unless its changed from yesterday... I'm running the sync right now btw 17:14:02 *tmh* likes the general philosophy of Alexandria as described on the home page. 17:14:23 bzwahr: emerge --sync only updates portage. didn't you use layman ? 17:14:53 fe[nl]ix: doh... I though emerge would update everythign (including layman overlays)... guess I put a little *too* much faith in portage :-P 17:15:32 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:15:37 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-234-19.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 17:16:18 stassats: Does the LULU print include the figures? (I doubt it since it is just a print of the PDF) 17:16:37 probably not 17:16:49 tmh: no 17:16:50 bzwahr: you could add a daily cronjob that updates the lisp overlay(at least). I update it often 17:17:09 how many figures are missing 17:17:17 you could always email pg and ask for them 17:17:18 *tmh* is going to print the PDF at a copy center and draw the figures in by hand with a crayon, poorly. 17:17:21 all? 17:17:29 oh, really? 17:17:40 *rsynnott* glanced at it once, but never in any detail 17:17:50 http://www.amazon.com/LISP-Advanced-Techniques-Common/dp/0130305529 17:17:53 fe[nl]ix: well that definitely worked, I'm have to add some new packages to package.keywords, such as drakma, usocket, etc 17:18:01 They have 1 new.. run 17:18:27 What's the difference between giving up and aborting an ir1 transform? 17:18:35 younder: Do you read posts on lisp besides your own? 17:19:03 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:19:43 giving up means this transform didn't work 17:19:54 abort means don't try anything else either 17:19:55 Yes, but mostly I shut up 17:20:07 delay means wait till later and try again 17:20:18 fe[nl]ix: emerging now 17:20:18 that may be the most expensive non-antique book I have ever seen :) 17:21:39 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 17:22:15 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [] 17:22:22 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@190.133.157.85] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:22:28 mik8y [n=user@124.60.31.83] has joined #lisp 17:22:34 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-133-157-85.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:24:01 -!- mik8y [n=user@124.60.31.83] has left #lisp 17:24:08 fe[nl]ix: ok, I'm up to 1.0.0 17:24:40 bzwahr: ok 17:24:55 fe[nl]ix: as a side note: you're handle is quite clever :) well done 17:25:01 fe[nl]ix: *your 17:25:33 bzwahr: what handle ? 17:25:44 fe[nl]ix: "fe[nl]ix" 17:25:51 oh 17:25:55 fe[nl]ix: handles, name, nick, etc 17:26:06 fe[nl]ix: *handle 17:26:22 nikodemus: Okay, I think I understand now. Thanks. 17:28:16 does anyone have a working alpha, mips, hppa, or sparc build environment for sbcl? 17:28:53 i have a patch that touches all the backends lightly, but i can only test x86oids and ppc 17:29:20 nikodemus: Not working, but I have an alpha sitting in my basement that I can't bring myself to get rid of. Alpha on linux? 17:29:34 fe[nl]ix: ok, now the start-server and stop-server commands are gone, I suppose I have to use start and stop now. still confused on how to do so 17:29:34 yes 17:29:47 fe[nl]ix: rather, I can start just fine 17:29:55 fe[nl]ix: its the stopping that I can't figure out 17:30:13 I don't remember stopping ever working that well 17:30:16 why do you want to stop? 17:30:25 -!- chi_square [n=kye@web014051.wireless.mcgill.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:30:48 jfactor [n=jfactor@student167-108.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 17:30:48 bzwahr: the documentation is in /usr/share/doc/hunchentoot-1.0.0/html 17:31:34 nikodemus: If it will be needed for on-going testing, I'll resurrect it, but it's not worth it for one test. Is linux on Alpha really needed? 17:32:04 rsynnott: it'd be nice to be able to stop a hunchentoot server without having to kill slime everytime, if need be. not that I neccessarily *need* to do it a lot, but it'd be nice to know how 17:32:54 salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has joined #lisp 17:33:22 The "Is linux on Alpha really needed?" question was asked sincerely, not to imply that I don't think that it is. 17:33:38 tmh: no need to resurrect -- i know someone has one, and i hopefully need only to verify that my trivial changes don't have typos, etc 17:33:56 well, alpha is a "supported" sbcl backend 17:34:27 i haven't used the final version 1.0 of HT yet, bzwahr .. but doesn't (stop *your-acceptor*) work? 17:34:31 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-277bab3e92efb430] has joined #lisp 17:35:12 bzwahr, if you just do this: (hunchentoot:start (make-instance 'hunchentoot:acceptor :port 4242)) .. of course it will be harder to "get hold of" the ACCEPTOR instance .. but store the returned instance in an outside variable you can easily access instead 17:35:19 lnostdal: it probably would, if *your-acceptor* were set to anything. that's wehre I get lost 17:35:30 bzwahr, improvise more! 17:35:31 :) 17:38:55 dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:31 got it. defvar *some-var*, setq *some-var* (make-instance acceptor), start *acceptor*, stop *acceptor* 17:40:32 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.244.60] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:40:33 huzzah 17:41:39 (defvar *some-var* (make-instance acceptor)) 17:42:05 even better 17:44:41 stepnem_ [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:13 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 17:46:26 and now stop seems to be hanging... it worked a bit ago, took a few seconds... now it doesnt' seem to be working, and I can't get back to a prompt in slime 17:46:57 nm 17:47:03 I had to refresh the page in my browser 17:47:10 for some reason 17:47:17 not sure why, but it works 17:47:34 -!- dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:48:00 Probably a connection was still open. 17:48:37 nyef: possibly, though I"m not sure how to close it... I didn't realize the connection woudl be persistant when someone visited a webpage 17:48:50 -!- stepnem_ [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:49:44 -!- stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:49:56 -!- tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 17:51:12 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-33.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:51:23 well, it was working... something's inconsistent :-P still, a great learning experience 17:51:36 or maybe not... it just takes a while to start up as well 17:51:42 Might even have been a blocking accept(2). 17:52:46 stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:36 now if I could just get the sql-reader syntax working consistently I'd be set ^_^ huzzah for learning! 17:53:39 tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:16 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 17:57:01 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:17 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:00:33 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:00:38 morning again 18:01:01 bombshelter13_ [n=greg@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:55 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@66.92.19.253] has joined #lisp 18:03:09 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:03:22 dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:25 BrandonWilson [n=a@216.71.225.62] has joined #lisp 18:04:56 I think the lag starting up and having to refresh to finish the stop have to do with using apache mod_proxy 18:09:54 ejs [n=eugen@118-31-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:47 milaz [n=user@85.172.99.141] has joined #lisp 18:11:07 there's a bug in hunchentoot: the acceptor thread blocks in usocket:socket-accept, so hunchentoot:stop won't work unless you then start a new connection to the server, which will make socket-accept return and terminate the thread 18:11:10 ugly 18:11:41 Score! 18:11:56 fe[nl]ix: thanks 18:11:58 nyef: nice 18:12:11 lol 18:12:25 well, at least my start-app and stop-app functions seem to be working now 18:12:38 fe[nl]ix: I had the same problem. Is it a bug in hunchentoot, or in usocket? 18:12:48 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2F36C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:12:59 nyef: kudos 18:13:46 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 18:13:52 milaz: I'd say it's a lack of usocket. socket-accept should take a TIMEOUT key arg 18:14:42 fe[nl]ix: maybe a workaround can be done with trivial-timeout? 18:15:27 I use hunchentoot locally for now, and going to make a site with it. 18:16:13 For local usage, this is not a big problem, just a spare refresh in browser. 18:17:06 And for production usage, this is not a big problem, because you're not going to be taking it down very often. 18:17:55 nyef: that and once you do, the first hit attempt will act in place of the spare refresh 18:17:55 milaz: you could, but with-timeout is not the right solution 18:18:31 nyef: you are right, I suspect there will be just function updates 18:18:32 so is it a problem in general then? whether or not apache and mod_proxy are used? 18:18:55 wasn't this solved in the development tree of hunchentoot? 18:21:28 where's the development tree? 18:21:40 I found just http://common-lisp.net/~loliveira/ediware/hunchentoot/ 18:22:01 But the latest version there is 1.0.0 18:23:10 it's a mirror 18:23:28 http://bknr.net/trac/browser/trunk/thirdparty/ 18:24:17 stassats: thanks 18:25:02 fe[nl]ix pasted "ugly hack to stop hunchentoot" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79843 18:26:14 Yes, looks like they fixed it: http://bknr.net/trac/browser/trunk/thirdparty/hunchentoot/CHANGELOG 18:26:15 illuminati1113 [n=user@c-69-243-16-44.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:52 *milaz* digs into usocket to understand how they fixed it 18:28:54 http://bknr.net/trac/changeset?new=trunk%2Fthirdparty%2Fhunchentoot%404303&old=trunk%2Fthirdparty%2Fhunchentoot%404302 18:29:34 brandelune [n=suzume@pl316.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:31:38 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 18:32:44 I get a warning when I do (funcall #'some-macro ...) inside another macro 18:33:00 is there another way of doing it then? 18:35:31 Numlock: you can't funcall macros. what are you trying to do ? 18:36:06 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 18:36:22 (You can funcall macros, but it's not immediately obvious how and it's rarely done.) 18:36:42 nyef: macroexpand-1 ? 18:37:04 No, you can get an actual function object and funcall that. 18:37:13 how ? 18:37:45 clhs macro-function 18:37:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_macro_.htm 18:37:46 (funcall (macro-function ..... 18:38:21 cool 18:40:25 Anyone have any experience cl-s3 v zs3? 18:41:43 http://enlivend.livejournal.com/10136.html - this is odd 18:41:54 doesn't o'reilly have an absolutely no lisp books policy? 18:42:06 danlei [n=user@pD9E2F36C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:43 Apparently not any more. Times are hard. 18:43:00 ora reacts to hard times, historically, by branching out rather than contracting. 18:43:05 ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 18:43:56 rsynnott: Why would they have that? Is there a post somewhere describing that policy? I'm totally intrigued by what the reasoning behind such a policy would be. 18:44:48 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:45:09 tsuru: they said "no lisp" at one point, but have recently been soliciting lisp books. 18:45:13 sorryu 18:45:19 rsynnott: ^ 18:45:52 http://oreilly.com/oreilly/author/writeforus_1101.html - grep for lisp 18:46:58 They appearently believe that Lisp doesn't generate enough interest for sales. 18:47:15 so, i was just typing (let ((foo ..)) (if foo ...)) for the nth time, and IF-BIND was already imported into my package ... so i used it, and it didn't feel too bad... 18:47:42 nikodemus: I have mipsel, sparc, alpha linux 18:48:11 can you easily make an alias for another function, only thing I find is defalias but that is an extention, no standard 18:48:17 only mips linux is missing 18:48:42 Numlock: why would you want to make an alias? 18:49:45 Good evening. 18:49:51 Hello beach. 18:50:00 hey beach 18:50:06 cause I find the original name confusing 18:50:20 saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 18:50:20 hello beach. 18:50:25 Numlock: (setf (symbol-function 'bar) (symbol-function 'foo)) 18:50:27 actually because the original name is misplaced and don't want to change my code :) 18:50:28 evening 18:50:35 thx 18:50:53 sugarshark [n=ole@p4FDA834C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:50:59 mega1: great. i'm putting final touches on the defconstant patch 18:51:10 (defun aliased-fun (&rest args) (apply 'original-function args)) 18:51:12 Numlock: using fdefinition instead of symbol-function lets you use the (setf foo) functions. 18:52:13 thx 18:53:25 Numlock: but still, don't do that. As a courtesy to other lisp developers who may have to read your code, it's really nice when things are called by their proper names. 18:53:28 (aliasing function name, not function) 18:53:36 I have access to hppa as well, but it's running linux an hpux. 18:53:41 *and not 18:54:04 kpreid___ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:35 nikodemus: I use this: http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/CompileFarm 19:00:37 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@c-69-243-16-44.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:02:13 mjf [n=mjf@r3a98.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 19:03:40 oh, neat! 19:10:21 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx07915.ashbuva.wayport.net] has quit [] 19:10:52 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["zzz"] 19:11:08 lol, somebody's porting gcc to 8086 19:11:19 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl316.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 19:11:20 Probably to support ELKS. 19:11:35 museum workers? 19:11:58 home -> good night 19:12:01 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181149179.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:13:17 nyef: What is ELKS, Google didn't provide anything useful on the first page and I'm lazy. 19:13:50 Embeddable Linux Kernel Subset. Essentially, an 8086 PC linuxish system. 19:14:18 tmh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embeddable_Linux_Kernel_Subset 19:14:58 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 19:16:10 Is the 8086 still used somewhere? 19:16:21 Probably. 19:16:40 The z80 will live forever, as will the 6502, so why not the 8086? 19:18:50 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:07 IIRC Nasa uses a modified version of 8086 in the space shuttle, shielded against cosmic rays 19:20:26 well, shuttle doesn't see many innovations, so it's kind of legacy 19:21:15 Many chip manufacturers do these "hardened" variations. 19:21:54 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@y192035.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:22:49 ESA uses a hardened Sparc CPU for satellites 19:23:00 pretty sure having the "latest technology" is not a goal for NASA 19:23:46 that might lead to having the "latest" astronauts 19:24:04 c|mell [n=cmell@x250008.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 19:24:46 "lastest" 19:24:49 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-56-117.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:25:49 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:44 "most recent" 19:26:56 "most late"? 19:27:32 "most advanced"? 19:27:34 Or even "most recently late"? 19:28:05 If you grow grass in space, is it astroturf? 19:28:09 every time new ones 19:32:48 I spoke too soon, there are still crashes with matlisp, but it takes hours to trigger. 19:33:24 It could be the threaded blas that I have. 19:33:33 An improvement, though, is it not? 19:35:29 apparently. It's hard to tell whether it's the same bug. 19:36:30 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:55 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 19:37:49 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.101.94] has quit ["this is not a quit message"] 19:42:27 minion, tell deepfire about matlisp 19:42:28 deepfire: direct your attention towards matlisp: MatLisp is a Mathematics Library which performs elementary and linear algebra operations on matrices. http://www.cliki.net/matlisp 19:43:16 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:43:36 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 19:45:47 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 19:45:57 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:29 -!- dysinger [n=tim@c-24-19-45-181.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:46:57 where was elephant again ? 19:47:26 sepult: in the zoo 19:47:28 in the room 19:47:30 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:47:37 "I forget?" 19:48:33 Clearly, there is a thriving diversity of opinions about the precise location of the elephant. Pick your preferred one! 19:48:45 minion: Elephant? 19:48:46 Elephant: Elephant is a LLGPLed portable object database based on Sleepycat (Berkeley DB) or relational databases. http://www.cliki.net/Elephant 19:50:08 -!- Numlock is now known as PissedNumlock 19:51:40 *yawn* 19:51:49 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:57:30 -!- kreuter`` is now known as kreuter 19:58:55 mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:12 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:05:11 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:09:06 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:09:50 -!- carbocalm [n=user@204.101.159.235] has left #lisp 20:10:13 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@66.92.19.253] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:11:05 clhs throw 20:11:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_throw.htm 20:12:25 tombom_ [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 20:14:52 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:15:31 Edward__ [i=Ed@90.3.168.156] has joined #lisp 20:16:22 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 20:16:59 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:17:22 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:18:07 is anyone here using serve-event in sbcl? 20:18:12 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.74.181] has joined #lisp 20:18:19 *nyef* is, occasionally. 20:18:26 for what? 20:19:22 Actually, mostly what I do is run slime with a non-threaded SBCL. But CLXS uses serve-event. 20:19:24 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student167-108.hampshire.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:19:51 Umm... And I don't know if my SBCL/Win32 setup counts, as I hot-patch in a replacement for sub-serve-event and a few other bits there. 20:20:15 CLX too? 20:20:16 damn 20:20:44 Hello everyone. 20:21:12 mega1: CLX and CLXS are two different projects 20:21:43 I just tried to make a Dupdog interpretor but I have problem to make the evaluation. 20:21:45 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Dupdog 20:21:49 mega1: CLXS is nyef's CL X Server :) 20:22:34 Though I wouldn't put it past CLX to use SERVE-EVENT. 20:23:00 surely, nyef would be happy to hot patch serve-event on unix too 20:23:24 Only on systems with winelib available. :-P 20:24:31 I want to give my function eval a string and make evaluation until there's no character. If odd I call mfit. If even I call shanty 20:24:40 according to grep CLX does not use it 20:24:50 Can I do that with loop ? 20:25:03 Did you check for uses of fd-handler? 20:25:06 Breeze [n=breeze@ip4da49dc6.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 20:25:38 noone else uses serve-event? cool 20:25:46 Edward__: This doesn't look very much like Common Lisp. 20:26:03 mega1: did you check the new hunchentoot? 20:26:10 mega1: I've checked better: swank, araneida, clxs and ltk are the only users of s-e on my machine 20:26:29 beach, why ? 20:26:54 My two functions mfit and shanty work very well. 20:27:45 Edward__: And that would make sure the language is Common Lisp? 20:28:24 I don't know what do you mean by "the language is Common Lisp". 20:28:25 fe[nl]ix: kmrcl call wait-until-fd-usable too, don't know if that counts ... 20:28:29 Is there something like a copy constructor in CLOS? Something like DEFSTRUCT makes with COPY-STRUCTURE? I've found some COPY-INSTANCE on the web, but just wondering if there's a standard function for it in CLOS. 20:29:08 Breeze: you need to read the article about equality by Kent Pitman. 20:29:21 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:29:22 -!- tombom_ is now known as tombom 20:29:46 beach: he said he was writing an interpreter. do you have some particular reason to suspect that the interpreter isn't being written in CL? 20:31:13 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:31:18 jsnell: Not really, no. 20:31:30 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:35:08 Breeze: No, unfortunately there is no standard function for that. 20:37:11 Breeze: the MOP can help you write a (nearly) portable base method though. 20:38:16 http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/lisp/copy-instance.lisp 20:38:23 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:29 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:40:27 -!- macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:40:55 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.36] has joined #lisp 20:40:55 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:42:08 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:43:35 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 20:43:47 beach, I've read parts of it. I don't understand why there can't be a COPY function/method that you can override. But I see michaelw's COPY-INSTANCE now. Thanks 20:43:58 -!- truthair [n=none@delph.xs4all.nl] has left #lisp 20:44:59 here's my take: because what a copy means isn't a function of the instance or its class, it's a function of the context in which it's used 20:45:31 and that means that, even for your favourite "I wish I could copy this", it's inappropriate to have a _single_ copy effective method. 20:45:44 Usually inappropriate, at least. 20:45:53 also, copying and equivalence test need to fit together 20:45:57 some people here have even asked for dynamic slot forwarding too 20:46:29 *hefner* very seldom needs to copy anything, unless he's programming in C 20:49:48 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 20:53:01 -!- ejs [n=eugen@118-31-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:54:00 *nyef* notes that of the four high-priority bugs in the tracker that are not platform dependent, he has no clue as to how to fix any of them. 20:54:50 -!- meingbg [n=user@remote5.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:55:06 Well... five bugs, counting the hunchentoot stress test one. 20:57:34 int i = 1; while (!str.empty()) { (i++ % 2) ? mfit(str) : shanty(str); str = str.substr(1); } 20:57:45 How do you do that in common lisp ? 20:59:40 Edward__: I don't know what mfit or shanty are, what does the (java I guess) code do? 21:00:04 mfit and shanty are just two functions. 21:00:09 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-3836.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 21:00:53 -!- HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:01:08 substr(x) returns the first x characters of the string, right? 21:01:44 (I'd lose the iteration variable. Seriously, it's pointless.) 21:01:47 doesn't make sense in this context, the loop would terminate immediately. I think it returns the string except for the first x characters. 21:01:49 substr(x) return the substring from x to end. 21:02:04 dankna: Yes. I was picking the least useful interpretation. 21:02:09 oh, haha 21:02:11 carry on then 21:02:15 I presume mfit and shanty have some important side-effects 21:02:28 since you can't change Java strings 21:02:29 string("Hello world").substr(1) => string("ello world") 21:02:38 sure, I'm somewhat familiar with Java 21:02:54 (subseq "Hello world" 1) => "ello world" 21:03:10 mfit and shanty is able to change str like putting some character before str. 21:03:22 so it's not a real Java string 21:03:29 or some kind of reference thing 21:03:30 Maybe it's C++? 21:03:32 C++/C# string. 21:03:43 oh hey, C#, that one didn't even occur to me 21:03:48 *oh*, right, C# is case-insensitive 21:03:49 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:03:54 D-flat? 21:04:09 I was matching for cap method names, calling it "substr" made me miss that 21:04:18 Oh, right, that was some maniac C interpreter thing in DDJ a decade or so ago... 21:04:36 nyef: not too different in pedigree from C# 21:04:48 with respect to specification quality 21:05:37 -!- sugarshark [n=ole@p4FDA834C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:05:40 nyef: the hunchentoot stress may not be bug [anymore] 21:06:08 mega1: I'm thinking it might be darwin-only at this point, given thread stability on that platform. 21:06:16 Or has that been fixed as well? 21:06:19 My real problem is on "while (!str.empty())" 21:06:27 (zerop (length str)) 21:06:28 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:53 length on vectors is O(1), effectively if not guaranteed 21:07:04 (loop while (plusp (length string)) do ...) 21:07:47 nyef: no, Darwin threads are still shaky 21:08:18 well, I guess (loop while (plusp (length string)) for i = 1 then (1+ i) for istr = str then (subseq (funcall (if (evenp i) #'mfit #'shanty) istr) 1) finally (setf str istr)) 21:08:24 direct code-to-code translation isn't always good 21:08:36 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 21:08:42 maybe you should describe what you are trying to accomplish with your code 21:08:43 especially the representation as string 21:08:52 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-163.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 21:09:33 "for i = 1 then (1+ i)" wtf? "for i from 1" 21:09:44 that's better 21:09:47 Lose i already. 21:10:07 Look at it: It's only ever used for its low bit. Express that in the loop structure directly. 21:10:09 a toggle is even better 21:10:21 Duplicating the loop exit test is better. 21:10:56 stassats`: I couldn't remember whether for-as-arithmetic needed the termination 21:11:31 unless the loopcount is needed later, but that is highly unlikely 21:12:41 stassats`, the code does : While there's a character in the string, if i (number of times the loop was executed) is even, I call mfit, else I call shanty. 21:12:42 (loop for even-iteration-p = nil then (not even-iteration-p) for string = string then (subseq (funcall (if even-iteration-p #'shanty #'mfit) string) 1) while (> (length string) 0) finally (return string)) 21:12:48 is how I would do it 21:12:50 of course 21:13:03 I probably wouldn't have a design where mfit and shanty can have side-effects on me in the first place 21:13:06 hi dankna 21:13:11 hi fenix! 21:13:16 been ages, how goes? 21:13:31 Edward__: that tells nothing new 21:14:02 dankna: pretty well 21:14:08 cool, glad to hear. 21:14:47 nyef: see sbcl-devel thread "binary release sb-thread policy" 21:15:30 it's not clear at all whether it's an sbcl bug that's reported. 21:15:54 and there were lots of fixes going into this area since then. 21:16:21 (loop for i from 0 to (length str) if (evenp i) do (print 'mfit) else do (print 'shanty)) 21:16:38 oh, substitute the print statements accordingly 21:17:35 s/from 0 // 21:17:47 s/.*/doesn't work/ 21:17:49 yes, but we're having side-effects on the string, see 21:17:53 damn 21:18:22 and I think there's something to be said for a solution that's more verbose but more explicit 21:19:07 especially since the original code manages to give no clue as to its function. (some sort of poor-man's-page-layout centering thingy?) 21:19:30 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:19:47 ... and (1- (length str)) ... too tired, i guess 21:20:09 well, you could (loop for i below (length str) 21:20:19 yes, thats better 21:21:08 there was ample context for what the function of the code is supposed to be 21:21:39 (interpreter for some language, with a link to the language spec provided, etc) 21:21:45 hahaha 21:21:55 I was sure you were going to say the function is to answer a homework question 21:22:11 danlei: the param to mfit and shanty is a ref param, so might as well set its result back to str 21:22:17 lukego [n=lukegorr@210.11.76.84] has joined #lisp 21:22:30 hi lukego 21:22:31 oh, you know 21:22:33 I came in in the middle 21:22:38 I guess there actually was some context I missed 21:22:49 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:22:49 S11001001: got it, finally :) 21:22:51 good morning fe[nl]ix 'n' all 21:23:38 lukego: good night 21:25:21 -!- paw` [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:27:53 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4d77.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:29:28 borism [n=boris@195.50.201.161] has joined #lisp 21:30:16 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-3836.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:30:29 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:37 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:30:51 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:32:16 Jabberwockey [n=jens@84.46.15.11] has joined #lisp 21:32:38 ref: convert a place to a function pasted "S11001001" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79855 21:33:10 heh, didn't read the field names 21:33:33 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:33:55 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:41 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-133-157-85.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:39:03 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:40:07 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:42 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:42:56 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=greg@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:43:49 ventimig [n=dventimi@c-24-5-28-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:22 only for educational purposes, i tried it with do (which i never use), would that be ok? (do ((i (length str) (funcall (if (evenp i) #'mfit #'shanty) str))) ((< i 1) str)) 21:45:05 bombshelter13_ [n=greg@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:06 with a (length (funcal ... 21:45:38 except we assume that mfit and shanty want to assign wholly new strings to the `str' variable 21:46:07 since they accept ref parameter in the original, alter the string size, and who ever uses adjust-array anyway? 21:46:26 well, it's just for the sake of learning about do 21:46:33 RadSurfer [n=RadSurfe@unaffiliated/radsurfer] has joined #lisp 21:46:59 Hello. I just installed CLisp in CentOS linux. Are there any good study-guides to get me started? Thanks. 21:47:02 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.74.181] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:47:13 -!- ventimig [n=dventimi@c-24-5-28-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:47:20 minion: please tell RadSurfer about pcl 21:47:20 RadSurfer: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:47:32 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-33.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 21:48:07 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:48:14 pinterface [n=pinterfa@69.66.202.152] has joined #lisp 21:49:35 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:39 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:49:42 When I enter this into Clisp, (list 33 squared is (* 33 33)), it does not evaluate to,  (33 squared is 1089), as expected, curious what I did wrong. 21:50:21 RadSurfer: Let me guess... you got an error about squared being unbound? 21:50:21 your  is not ' 21:50:32 Ah 21:50:41 Oh. There are invisible characters there? 21:50:41 copy/paste snag 21:51:08 Thank you :) 21:51:13 nyef: i see it perfectly 21:51:20 stassats`: Lucky you. 21:53:14 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-158-152.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:57:47 -!- xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:57:48 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@210.11.76.84] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:58:44 -!- nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving the office."] 21:58:45 lukego [n=lukegorr@210.11.76.84] has joined #lisp 22:01:06 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:23 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@84.46.15.11] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:02:59 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-234-19.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 22:05:09 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:07:08 hm ... i'm on cygwin at the moment, and it seems, that all libs are static. (e.g. libssl.a) how would i get cffi to work on that system? (i wanted to give mudballs a try) 22:08:29 dreish [n=dreish@207.138.47.173] has joined #lisp 22:11:18 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:04 divia [n=divia@98.210.196.101] has joined #lisp 22:15:23 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@210.11.76.84] has joined #lisp 22:15:36 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:19:49 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=greg@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 22:22:21 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:23:45 jfactor [n=jfactor@student164-134.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 22:24:59 rullie_ [n=rullie@99.235.203.155] has joined #lisp 22:25:46 benny` [n=benny@87.122.7.43] has joined #lisp 22:27:32 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@210.11.76.84] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:04 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 22:36:11 rullie__ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:38:46 -!- scheduler [n=schedule@80.217.244.191] has quit [] 22:39:57 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087A6D6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:40:22 -!- bzwahr [n=user@bloc-bzwahr-lap.tamu.edu] has left #lisp 22:40:33 -!- rullie__ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:40:53 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0BAC.versanet.de] has quit [Success] 22:41:06 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:41:11 rullie__ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:42:09 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:42:49 Well, I'm giving emacs another try. How do I start Slime? 22:43:01 M-x slime 22:43:07 (require 'slime) 22:43:17 (slime-setqup '(slime-fancy)) 22:43:20 M-x slime 22:43:27 -!- rullie_ [n=rullie@99.235.203.155] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:43:34 you forget "install slime" 22:43:45 yes :) 22:44:06 untar, (add-to-list 'load-path "/path/to/slime/") 22:44:15 from cvs! 22:44:50 % cvs -d :pserver:anonymous:anonymous@common-lisp.net:/project/slime/cvsroot co slime 22:45:01 yes, I once updated slime and thought it was broken, because repl was considered as a kind of plugin 22:45:06 I did install slime, from the Ubuntu repositories. However, it M-x slime gives [No match] 22:45:27 bgs100: bad idea, purge it 22:45:30 bgs100: it probably doesn't work 22:45:49 bgs100: two days ago a friend of mine did with no luck 22:46:07 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:46:12 bgs100: it's better to download a cvs snapshot from the site 22:46:17 Nevermind about the [No match] part 22:46:57 slime is striving for maximum modularity :) 22:47:38 rsynnott: well, it could be even more 22:47:56 but repl... I don't understand what reason made developers to put it outside 22:47:58 it COULD be no doubt 22:48:00 like sldb separation 22:48:02 doesn't mean it SHOULD 22:48:19 rsynnott: you never know where slime is going 22:48:31 one day, you have no repl, another, no debugger 22:48:57 *rsynnott* has just stopped upgrading it, in protest 22:49:10 yes, upgrading is scary 22:49:21 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@wireless107.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:49:22 I always wait for surprise 22:49:27 *stassats`* has slime-fancy to not worry 22:49:35 (though one day soon I shall need to update to the fancy new clojure, and then find a slime that works with my clojure, ccl AND sbcl, and it will be horrible 22:49:38 urgh 22:49:48 and i like hunting bugs, so i upgrade regularly 22:50:21 it's pleasant to hunt bugs in codebase you know as your palm 22:50:53 but when one just starts, and nothing works, the experience is awful 22:51:01 hunting bugs lets you know it better 22:51:05 *rsynnott* DOES NOT LIKE elisp 22:51:14 so tries to avoid breaking slime as much as possibl 22:51:15 Okay, I downloaded and untar'ed the CVS snapshot from http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/snapshots/slime-current.tgz 22:51:23 elisp is okay 22:51:33 there is no slime for elisp! 22:51:54 well, no swank :) 22:52:02 it has the benefit of being installed on people's systems 22:52:02 trying to get cffi running under cygwin is PITA. now i found the libssl.dll.a, changed the define-foreign-library accordingly, and get "permission denied" errors, although everygthing is o+r 22:52:05 just ielm 22:52:14 I probably would never have learned any Lisp without it 22:53:55 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:55:28 bgs100: ... C-x C-f ~/.emacs file now 22:56:04 -!- mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-071f1a41ed917355] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 22:56:22 and put there (add-to-list 'load-path "~/Lisp/slime-2009-05-04/") 22:56:38 or some other directory you untar'ed slime from 22:56:41 COND clauses kind of remind me of SWITCH/CASE, and CASE- type constucts 22:57:34 clhs case 22:57:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_case_.htm 22:57:56 milaz, Okay, thanks 22:58:52 -!- lukego_ [n=lukegorr@210.11.76.84] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:59:18 mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c5a958b0109a98c3] has joined #lisp 22:59:23 cond is more like if/elsif with parenthesis instead 22:59:51 -!- rullie__ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:00:35 though at least cl case doesn't require the terrible break thing 23:00:53 it is useful sometimes 23:00:58 Agreed. 23:01:03 like, duff's devices 23:01:08 breakall; would be handy in many languages, too 23:01:15 break(level); 23:01:35 I have a background in C, Delphi and Fortran. 23:01:52 bgs100: several days ago I upgraded Ubuntu to 9.04, installed emacs-snapshot with synaptic, 23:01:55 cl has (block name ... (return-from level) ...) 23:02:00 s/level/name/ 23:02:19 bgs100: downloaded new slime, sbcl 1.0.28, hyperspec, 23:02:38 bgs100: created .emacs file to load slime, 23:03:10 bgs100: and made a .tar.bz2 archive to just unpack in a home directory 23:03:46 ... clbuild? 23:04:05 bgs100: to avoid repetitive work setting these up again 23:04:10 is clbuild able to download hyperspec? 23:04:19 it could be handy 23:05:50 -!- benny` is now known as benny 23:06:14 Uh... M-x slime isn't working 23:06:32 stassats`: well, almost, but I just carry this archive on USB device, to avoid downloads also :) 23:06:43 does C-M : (require 'slime) work? 23:06:53 bgs100: how does you 23:07:02 ah, C-: ... 23:07:06 did you set inferior-lisp-program? 23:07:07 jeez 23:07:08 bgs100: how does your .emacs file look like 23:07:49 danlei: ouch, I tried C-M :) 23:08:10 *danlei* is to supid to type today: M-: (require 'slime) 23:08:22 where M is Alt 23:08:24 rullie_ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:08:42 I find it odd that there is no _single_ test to tell you if 2 values are even/odd.... 23:08:56 danlei: or some people strangely beleive it is Meta 23:09:17 Yay, I got it working 23:09:28 well, its the Alt menifestation of the meta idea ... or something .. 23:09:31 Using the README in the latest slime 23:09:41 *manifestation 23:10:04 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:10:18 RadSurfer: what do you mean? 23:10:20 bgs100: I recently learned they also have lots of html documentation on the site :) 23:11:11 maybe something like (every #'oddp '(3 5 7)) 23:11:14 So now my .emacs looks like 23:11:15 (add-to-list 'load-path "~/code/common-lisp/slime") 23:11:15 (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/bin/sbcl") ; your Lisp system 23:11:15 (require 'slime) 23:11:21 Page 124 of Gentle Guide to Symb Comp 23:11:52 bgs100: i think you'll need a trailing / 23:11:58 bgs100: it would be good to add also (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) in the end 23:12:10 bgs100: so that you have repl 23:12:10 I suppose it depends on what you call a "single operation" 23:12:21 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D3BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:12:26 milaz, I currently do have a repl... 23:12:43 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:12:45 wow, they put it back nightly? 23:12:49 well, you could do (every #'evenp (list a b)) 23:15:40 (mfit a b) 23:15:53 oh, no, it's an odd test... really, (shanty a b) 23:15:55 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75.149.33.105] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:16:10 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:14 do not confuse 23:17:21 stassats`: ok, I just thought RadSurfer wants some predefined function 23:17:49 I'm fine. 23:18:12 I have some simple interations that solve simple math problems, might be fun to see if I can translate them to lisp 23:18:18 Iterations (loops) 23:19:27 RadSurfer: in a textbook? 23:19:48 rullie__ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:20:45 -!- rullie_ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:23:24 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.169.228] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:24:39 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:24:40 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 23:25:34 no. I have some fortran code I did that works ... translate that to Lisp just as an exercise of my own. 23:26:05 translation is no good, write it from scratch 23:26:07 It'll take awhile to take advantage of the more broader use of the complex data-structures in Lisp 23:26:09 RadSurfer: oh, I see 23:26:37 RadSurfer: I rarely written some code in fortran that actually worked :) 23:26:47 Its basically a linked-list environment? 23:26:59 Fortran is a beautiful, magestic language. 23:27:03 m 23:27:08 minion: f2cl? 23:27:08 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``f2cl''. 23:27:12 no, it's not 23:27:13 there is cl-containers package 23:27:20 Got us to the Moon and back, and put Skylab in orbit. In fact, Fortran is still used by FCC and NASA, to name just a few 23:27:37 it has some complex structures 23:27:37 How many places are using Lisp? and how many devices use Lisp today? 23:27:52 nasa used lisp too 23:28:27 looking at Fortran is like looking at sheet music; looking at lines of Lisp hurts my head now, lol 23:28:31 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:43 But I understand it better with the 3 hours I used reading 23:28:44 quite the opposite for me 23:28:53 RadSurfer: we don't care, lets talk about lisp please. 23:29:01 I never understood why they label format statements in fortran 23:29:17 actually, my head hurts when i look at sheet music 23:29:18 You can embed them too. 23:29:18 as if they want to go to on them later 23:29:24 (but we shouldn't discuss that now) 23:29:39 so lisp is like looking at tabs 23:29:55 It shortens the line down, and places all formats in a common area. Makes perfect sense. 23:30:02 I'm done now. 23:30:05 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:30:39 (I have some other questions about fortran but won't ask them here) 23:32:01 milaz, please join #Fortran 23:32:24 by the way, does GSLL have numerical integration functions in it? 23:32:42 milaz: if GSL does, probably. 23:32:54 http://common-lisp.net/project/gsll/ 23:33:13 thanks, I looked into it, and did't find any 23:33:31 illuminati1113 [n=user@71.114.64.62] has joined #lisp 23:33:51 in GSL there are QAG, QAGS and so on... 23:34:07 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [] 23:34:16 fortran people are allowed to use the internet? 23:34:36 RadSurfer: I'm afraid with questions like I have they will ban me from #Fortran :( 23:34:59 Go there. 23:35:30 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-109.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:35:40 Only bad ques, are the unasked ones. 23:36:10 Okay, I'll try later 23:37:49 I pop on/off throughout the night, but I'll likely be there. 23:38:03 What is the recommended Lisp compiler for Win2000? 23:38:18 Breeze pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79861 23:38:27 I have a few questions about this example code I've written. Please take a look. I've basically put the questions and the code on the paste.lisp.org. (Turned out to be longer than I hoped :P). I'm still trying to learn Common Lisp so let me know if I'm doing something terribly wrong. 23:38:30 Looks like CLISP works best on Windows, there is also ECL 23:39:03 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250008.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit ["Instain to the do way"] 23:39:08 ECL works with cygwin environment AFAIK, because it translates Lisp to C 23:39:12 and compiles it 23:39:22 The latest version also has bytecode compiler 23:39:49 Clozure also is climed to work 23:39:56 http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~novak/gclwin.html 23:40:39 I tried Clozure on Linux, it freezes after any condition handled by debugger 23:41:20 Try the latest build, it should definitely work on Linux 23:41:28 uh oh, gcl is not recommended 23:41:33 ? 23:42:19 http://www.pchristensen.com/blog/articles/installing-clisp-emacs-and-slime-on-windows-xp/ 23:43:08 Ah, and those crispy fonts in Emacs under Windows :( 23:43:47 jajcloz: ok, I'll try it, Clozure is very promising 23:43:48 here we go: http://downloads.sourceforge.net/clisp/clisp-2.44-win32-mingw-big-install.exe 23:43:49 Breeze: i'd consider using CLOS as better Lisp style 23:44:03 I'll give that a try. 23:44:05 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:59 many many people use Clozure daily on Linux for professional work, it should be very stable. Also the Windows port is running very well now. It runs Maxima without problems. 23:45:10 Breeze: the code itself doesn't seem horrible, but nobody would ever write a program like that, so it's hard to be critical without throwing the whole thing away. 23:45:56 Breeze: ah, banking accounts... Just like in Practical Common Lisp example: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-classes.html 23:46:02 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:47:03 pinterface1 [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:17 Vegan [n=sdfpme@125.93.104.123] has joined #lisp 23:49:56 jajcloz: maybe that was my misunderstanding, though 23:50:39 vixey [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:51:03 jajcloz: the problem was when some condition happens, let's type (error "A-a-a-a!!!") in REPL, 23:51:07 hi, if slime doesn't give you a repl and slime-selector doesn't have the 'r' option -- what do you do? 23:51:42 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6D45A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 23:51:55 put (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) in .emacs? 23:52:10 jajcloz: "Reset this thread" and "Kill this thread" restarts make REPL not respond anymore 23:52:19 stassats`, the real applicaiton has to sort of combine the "bank accounts" in the best possible way, by going down a path and comparing it against another. I tried to avoid copying / setting things, because I need to use something without side effects. Either by using just functions or maybe copying and modifying CLOS instances? Would that work best with CLOS? 23:53:23 stassats`: thank you - that works 23:53:47 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@69.66.202.152] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:54:15 Breeze: Is there a particular reason that you need to avoid side-effects? 23:54:45 milaz: well, killing repl thread is not a good idea, i suppose 23:55:12 jajcloz: maybe, I just don't understand it, and Clozure does what is intended 23:56:09 illuminati1113, I don't want one path to influence another. Every path should start from scratch with all bank accounts set to the original values. 23:56:43 stassats`: I used to SBCL, and TERMINATE-THREAD restart aborts the computation, but I can evaluate other expressions 23:57:15 -!- pinterface1 [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:57:15 stassats`: Clozure just freezes after it 23:57:26 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:27 in slime? 23:57:33 -!- pinterface is now known as pinterface1 23:57:44 stassats`: yes, and when running it from the shell, too 23:57:51 matlisp refuses to install heh 23:57:59 -!- pinterface1 is now known as pinterface 23:58:09 why the fuck are lisp packages so daunting 23:58:12 in slime kill thread works ok 23:58:31 How do you exit slime? (exit) isn't working 23:58:37 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r3a98.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:59:05 in the shell it works to, but it kills the repl and it isn't restarted 23:59:36 bgs100: , sayonara 23:59:47 (sorry two o's)