00:08:12 ltriant [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:09:33 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:09:41 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 00:11:29 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-196.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:19:57 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 00:20:04 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:20:05 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:10 let's say I have a list of numbers, and I want to return true if one of the numbers is a 3. What's the most efficient way to do this? Right now the best I can come up with is using mapcar and then ANDing all the elements in the returned list. This seems bulky, however 00:23:40 (member 3 list) 00:23:58 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:24:12 Heh. And I was going to suggest SOME, but MEMBER is quite possibly better for this scenario. 00:25:05 well that was just a silly example actually. my real situation is that I have a list of structures and I want to see if any of the structures data field is a certain string value 00:25:16 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:25:30 clhs member 00:25:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_member.htm 00:25:39 clhs some 00:25:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm 00:25:55 no, member is better! 00:26:14 I'm not going to argue, I'm merely providing another option. 00:26:15 oh nice 00:26:30 What I am going to do is check on my laundry. 00:26:41 (member 3 list :test #'equal :key #'access-key) 00:26:50 nyef: i'm semijoking 00:26:55 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:27:02 I'd use find. 00:27:14 position? 00:28:29 (sorry, just felt I would join the crowd) 00:28:59 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:13 Tordek [n=tordek@host103.190-138-155.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:32:56 is the structure access key just structname-membername 00:35:02 -!- nerdvelis is now known as Jarvellis 00:35:12 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:09 ... Are structure slot accessors required to be functions, or are they permitted to be macros? 00:37:46 can object slot accessors be macros?! 00:38:09 that's the kind of thing that, even if it were true, you'd have to ignore, because it's brain-damaged. 00:38:11 nyef: they're functions. setfers, otoh. 00:38:18 Fair enough. 00:38:49 hefner: you never know, there could be some goodness behind the idea 00:38:59 Oh, I know why this hack is breaking. Naturalize is adding the bloody typecheck. :-/ 00:39:10 so I could write (member string structlist :key #'struct-string :test #'string=) 00:39:17 holycow [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:42 -!- holycow [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:39:49 etate: I can't reasonably claim to know anything with 100% certainty, but I'm pretty sure that particular idea is retarded. 00:40:04 hmm, any good papers I might use to show people LispM OSes? 00:40:07 Hrm. Or maybe it isn't. WTF is it coming from, then? 00:40:26 hefner: lol 00:41:32 p_l: I suspect that, once you dig into them, LispM OSes turn out to suck. 00:41:59 nyef: The thing is, I have a presentation on less known OSes Wednesday night :D 00:42:17 Ah. 00:42:40 Going to cover AS/400? 00:42:42 I can try setting up OpenGenera, I'll try to setup Plan9, maybe I'll boot VMS 00:42:56 Nope, I don't have a machine to show it on :) 00:43:08 How about MVS? 00:43:30 Plan9 is just ~1h of waiting for replica to finish copying files, VMS I do have, OpenGenera is plainly interesting (and bitch to setup) 00:43:36 nyef: ... don't tempt me 00:43:44 *p_l* actually has MVS installed 00:44:08 for some reason the first time I logged in it greeted me with message about looking for a new drug 00:44:47 Multics, maybe? 00:44:56 dos 00:45:05 *hefner* has been meaning to set up Plan 9, fiddled with OpenGenera the other night (and finally bailed out at site setup, with the end of the tunnel within sight) 00:45:06 ITS? With MDL? 00:45:07 ITS> 00:45:10 damn 00:45:14 plan 9 is pretty freakin awesome 00:45:16 nyef: Only theory, getting it running would be a 50 lvl in Knuth's book :) 00:45:19 ELKS is probably fairly obscure.... I haven't heard much about QNX in a while... 00:45:26 but it's not very apparent out of the box 00:45:30 I can get ITS to run, TOPS-20 as well 00:45:33 there are only three operating systems, it shouldn't be too hard. 00:45:38 Genera doesn't feel right over X11, especially without a keyboard overlay 00:45:55 looks like I could fill a month full of talks about OSes :D 00:46:12 Oh, for the love of... It's SIGN-EXTEND that's causing the bloody typecheck. 00:46:22 I think they didn't notice that I'm a retrocomputing maniac :D 00:46:57 What's the arg-type for a signed 64 bit value? 00:47:19 it's amazing when you dig into computing history how most new ideas are very old. 00:47:49 rhencke: What do we learn from history? That people do not learn from history 00:47:54 ... Is it just signed-num? 00:48:10 nyef: sounds right. 00:48:14 p_l: i wish that wasn't true... but life keeps teaching me otherwise. 00:48:42 Okay, giving the revised fix a try, then. 00:48:58 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-83-182.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:04 (Tripped up by sign-extend, of all things, requiring that it's input be a (signed-byte 32) on an x86-64 system... even when it's supposed to sign-extend to a (signed-byte 32) in the first place.) 00:52:10 BTW, is anyone tending to that wiki with articles regarding OpenGenera on amd64? 00:56:43 (It's actually worse than just be (signed-byte 32). It's required to be a fixnum in one place and a (signed-byte 32) in another.) 00:58:13 Well, it didn't crash right off the bat, that's a good sign. 00:58:22 Now I just need to wait for target-2 and contribs... 00:58:23 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host163.201-253-13.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:58:36 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-135-129.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:58:47 " Well, it didn't crash right off the bat, that's a good sign." - famous last words 00:58:52 what's the best way to capture the list returned by member in this case: http://paste.lisp.org/display/79619 00:58:54 -!- dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:59:04 jfactor [n=jfactor@student167-20.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 00:59:16 rsynnott: Given that the last two times I tried to build this tree it choked in SUB-GC, it -is- a good sign. 00:59:20 (particularly of people who write video drivers) 00:59:41 rsynnott: exploding CRTs? 00:59:56 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-203-165.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:08 nah, just eaten by enraged gamers 01:00:11 And it worked. Or, at least, didn't fail my short test suite. 01:00:21 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-83-182.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:00:56 <_3b> poet: (let ((temp)) (cond ... ((setf temp (member ...) ...))) ? 01:01:00 p_l: the article overrun with spam? 01:01:15 hefner: yeah 01:01:25 nyef annotated #79612 "revised patch (x86-64 only)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79612#1 01:01:45 btw, here's my current list of proposed OS talks for uni computing society: http://pastebin.com/d4f8c39fa 01:01:46 nyef annotated #79612 "test cases" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79612#2 01:03:03 nyef: foldable? I hope there's a corresponding function to handle the general case. 01:03:18 pkhuong: I know not, I care not. 01:03:56 I just tweaked the definition I found to be less badly incorrect. I'm not interested in making sure it is, in fact, correct. 01:04:15 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host103.190-138-155.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:04:33 -!- Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 01:04:34 kglovern [n=kgn@bas1-london14-1128759065.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:05:12 night all 01:05:22 oh well. Not likely to ever be an issue. 01:05:23 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["DON'T PANIC"] 01:05:39 My plan for this is to work up the corresponding x86 changes, document the damage, add the test cases to the test suite if there aren't any there already, and then check it in. So, possibly this week, possibly not, but should be before 1.0.29. 01:06:12 *p_l* nearly facedesks 01:06:22 looks like I should go to sleep 01:06:37 I can't focus on display 01:06:41 afk :/ 01:06:44 Oh, and I might condition some of the damage out for non-x86oid systems, because there's no point in the silliness if they don't have the problem. 01:06:47 p_l: Sleep well. 01:06:52 night all 01:08:12 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:08:16 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 01:15:27 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-203-165.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:15:48 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-203-165.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:10 -!- kglovern [n=kgn@bas1-london14-1128759065.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 01:19:18 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:19:33 -!- rhencke [n=rhencke@adsl-71-143-181-49.dsl.ltrkar.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:21:37 -!- HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:23:54 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:40:17 vinleod [n=vince@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:46 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-230.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:40:57 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-26-14.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:41:26 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 01:44:22 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.212.31] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:44:25 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:03 Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has joined #lisp 01:54:25 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:54:58 elias` [n=me@resnet-nat-524.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 01:57:43 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:57:46 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:59:11 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:59:57 rullie [n=rullie@CPE00179acf86ed-CM001bd7cb4984.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:06:23 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-220-184.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:06:47 -!- danlei [n=user@217.226.231.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:08:41 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 02:10:15 rhencke [n=rhencke@adsl-71-143-181-49.dsl.ltrkar.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:05 masm [n=masm@238.5.103.87.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 02:20:13 -!- masm [n=masm@238.5.103.87.rev.vodafone.pt] has left #lisp 02:23:14 lordzero [n=zero3020@189.25.102.213] has joined #lisp 02:24:53 -!- Vegan is now known as u_u 02:26:16 -!- u_u is now known as Vagen 02:27:03 ... Heh. Might be able to make this sign-extend fiasco not suck for non-result alien integer types. 02:27:43 danlei [n=user@pD954F319.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:54 Essentially, if the compiler already knows that the value is within the range of the signed type then the value is already sign-extended. 02:28:25 At which point the extension can be elided. 02:28:32 Anyway, something for the future. 02:35:23 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:12 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-149-243.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 02:40:07 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0709.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:42:11 so, do the parenthesis fade away after a while? every time i take a lisp tutorial i see parenthesis when i close my eyes for a good few hours :P 02:42:13 benny [n=benny@i577A0709.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:42:38 They fade to background noise much of the time. 02:42:42 rhencke: i just set parenthesis to blend in the background using color-theme 02:43:01 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student167-20.hampshire.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:43:08 nyef: ok, thanks :) 02:43:11 rhencke: that way you don't have to see them at all if you don't like ;) 02:43:17 etate: ah, good idea.. let me try that, thanks :) 02:43:17 I can see them, I mostly ignore them, unless I happen to need to pay attention to them. 02:43:43 i see them and i keep thinking they're from my cat having stepped on the keyboard when i was gone :P 02:43:54 nyef: mine are visible, but not high contrast 02:44:06 still not used to functions that end in things like ))))))))))))))))))))) yet, heh :) 02:44:15 i suppose it comes with time 02:44:22 If your functions end with that many parens, you need to do some heavy refactoring. 02:44:41 i am exaggerating, thankfully 02:44:48 but that's what it feels like, i swear ;) 02:45:07 I'd be worried at ))))))), and I'm hacking on a file with an instance of that. 02:46:11 etate: ah, that's much better! thanks for that idea. 02:46:26 rhencke: no probs :D 02:47:26 gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-141-36.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 02:47:33 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-149-243.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:51:42 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-68-239-77-4.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:52:32 -!- Vagen [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:53:20 -!- gemelen_ is now known as gemelen 02:53:56 -!- lordzero [n=zero3020@189.25.102.213] has left #lisp 02:54:19 in your opinions, what's the best test framework to use? 02:54:59 http://aperiodic.net/phil/archives/Geekery/notes-on-lisp-testing-frameworks.html 02:55:13 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-77-160.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:55:20 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE00179acf86ed-CM001bd7cb4984.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:55:21 Good morning. 02:55:29 Hello beach. 02:55:35 For code-level tests i like a few ASSERTS at the bottom of the file. For unit-tests i like stefil, and i use selenium for user level testing of web apps. 02:55:47 -!- TDT [n=user@191.16.63.69.dyn.southslope.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:55:50 kglovern [n=kgn@bas1-london14-1128759065.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:55:53 *nyef* usually goes with either the ASSERT method or SB-RT. 02:56:04 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 02:59:39 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-253-1-115-198.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:04:00 Any good tutorials for FiveAM? I looked for documentation once before, but could not find enough to get me started converting some of my older tests to FiveAM. 03:09:05 -!- rhencke [n=rhencke@adsl-71-143-181-49.dsl.ltrkar.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:09:54 -!- r00t_ [n=r00t@115.241.101.129] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:09:57 nyef annotated #79612 "revised^2 patch, commit candidate" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79612#3 03:11:49 -!- Modius_ is now known as Modius 03:12:04 zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 03:12:38 rhencke: Take a look at these 2 forms: (let ((x 3)) ...) and (let (x 3) ... ) <-- The visual cues you'll use to read code will change over time, the 2 things I just typed in will look vastly different, as they are. 03:13:38 GrayMagiker: the source is very well documented, as is the test suite IIRC 03:13:48 you're lucky it wasn't (let (x y) ...) which will cause no error 03:14:29 At least, no immediate error. 03:16:01 drewc: Thanks. Silly me i didn't even think to check the source! D'oh! I was looking for a tutorial before I down loaded it. 03:16:50 *stassats* likes (let 'x ...) better 03:17:09 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-68-142-74.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:17:17 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 03:17:19 GrayMagiker: i find that i never use docs or tutorials for well written lisp code... M-. + the occasional grep is more then enough. 03:17:52 stassats: oohh, scary! :) 03:17:57 *nyef* finds that some things really do need docs, and sometimes the existing docs are sadly lacking. 03:18:00 <_3b> (let ('1 #'2) ...)? 03:18:35 _3b: nice one 03:18:52 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-f33d538aa8e98f44] has joined #lisp 03:19:04 Heh. I can just see some maniac use #' to set up a binding like that. 03:19:08 (let (#'(lambda (x) (+ 1 x))) (funcall function 2)) 03:19:18 Yeah, like that. 03:19:30 haha, brilliant 03:21:07 MORE CONFUSION 03:21:09 <_3b> (let* (#'(lambda (x) (1+ x)) #'(lambda (x) (funcall function (1- x))) (funcall function 2))? 03:22:14 -!- dulouz [n=ross@dsl254-119-219.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:22:59 (let (#.(macroexpand '(lambda (x) (+ 1 x)))) (funcall function 2)) 03:23:02 <_3b> actually, i suppose the proper progression would be to use #' or ' in the lamba list 03:24:22 *drewc* wants to implement Y using this mess.... 03:24:35 (defun foo (&key #''car) (funcall function nil)) ? 03:25:53 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-203-165.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:26:08 such a nice simple regular syntax this lisp has! :D 03:26:14 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-203-165.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:30 tessier [n=treed@unused-105-40-113.ixpres.com] has joined #lisp 03:26:42 ... Does this mean #'.something might be legal somewhere? 03:27:06 bombshelter13p [n=bombshel@24.114.232.32] has joined #lisp 03:27:49 _3b: Thanks for making me laugh this early in the morning. 03:28:26 -!- theL00p [n=user@78.33.52.101] has quit ["Goodnight #Lisp"] 03:28:42 bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has joined #lisp 03:31:03 <_3b> nyef: why wouldn't it be? (flet ((.something () 1)) #'.something) 03:31:18 -!- alec [n=alec@pool-96-237-2-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:31:27 Hrm. Oops. Guess I meant #'. something. 03:31:33 <_3b> (can't figure out how to make it splice anything though :) 03:31:34 (The space is important, after all.) 03:32:22 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-14-51.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:13 morning. 03:36:47 Hello tic_. 03:36:58 Hey tic_ 03:37:05 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:37:08 Early morning today. What's new? 03:37:54 More SBCL bugfixes? 03:38:09 We like that. 03:38:23 tic_: Well, yesterday I worked out some more details of the low-level CLIM-3 substrate that I have been toying with for a while. 03:38:34 tic_: But it's hard to find time at the moment. 03:39:19 beach, progress is progress! 03:39:21 Every so often I think about resurrecting my "NQ-CLIM" (Not Quite CLIM) idea. 03:39:59 nyef: sure, why not. 03:41:01 Because I have piles of other stuff wanting my attention. 03:41:01 -!- bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has quit ["quit"] 03:41:29 I'm curious about the "not quite" part 03:42:08 hefner: It's about ignoring any part of the spec that I don't like. 03:42:22 I do that anyway ;) 03:43:39 -!- kglovern [n=kgn@bas1-london14-1128759065.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 03:43:44 bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has joined #lisp 03:45:13 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:50 -!- bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has quit [Client Quit] 03:45:55 Jabberwockey [n=jens@82.113.121.158] has joined #lisp 03:46:04 bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has joined #lisp 03:46:26 -!- bombshelter13p [n=bombshel@24.114.232.32] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:47:01 -!- bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has quit [Client Quit] 03:47:06 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-203-165.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:47:14 bombshelter13p [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has joined #lisp 03:48:11 so are zombies "events" or what? 03:48:13 argh 03:48:16 wrong channel 03:48:19 *ianmcorvidae* hides in shame 03:49:02 -!- bombshelter13p [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has quit [Client Quit] 03:49:09 *nyef* sings, off-key, "all you zombies hide your faces / all you people in the street..." 03:49:15 bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has joined #lisp 03:49:30 <_3b> is that from that plant thing? 03:50:36 -!- bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has quit [Client Quit] 03:50:50 bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has joined #lisp 03:51:14 -!- bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:51:15 one CLIM thing that popped into my head recently is that my practice of repainting rectangles after modifying output records is broken in the case where multiple off-screen (drawing disabled) recording operations are nested 03:52:05 i hate when that happens 03:52:31 in practice I guess it doesn't cause problems except some redundant or premature repainting, but perhaps there ought to be a better protocol for syncing changes to the output record structure with the display 03:52:37 <_3b> ah, different zombie song i guess :) 03:53:03 _3b: Let me guess... you were thinking of the cranberries? 03:53:36 <_3b> nyef: nah, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N1_0SUGlDQ ad for some silly game 03:53:52 bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has joined #lisp 03:54:44 jfactor [n=jfactor@student166-11.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 03:54:46 (the thing everyone else does, calling REPLAY, which I've largely obliterated from the mcclim codebase, is even more obviously broken) 03:55:37 _3b: ... WTF? I can see how this got popular, but it's still insane. 03:55:48 *_3b* likes insane 03:56:24 thanks _3d 03:56:25 -!- bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has quit [Client Quit] 03:56:26 b 03:56:29 i mean 03:56:31 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-223-15.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:42 bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has joined #lisp 03:57:05 At least "get ready to soil your plants" is moderately clever. 03:58:26 <_3b> i could link something more on-topic if you prefer :) http://dic.nicovideo.jp/v/sm3484521 03:59:29 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-45b6bc4dedd7bca1] has joined #lisp 04:00:11 *_3b* can't read it well enough to really judge sanitly level of that one though 04:00:47 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-45b6bc4dedd7bca1] has left #lisp 04:03:15 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 04:03:23 evening 04:03:34 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-14-51.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:03:34 Hello slyrus_. 04:05:20 Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has joined #lisp 04:09:47 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 04:11:15 Hey slyrus_ 04:11:37 hey nyef, beach, anything new and exciting this weekend? 04:12:04 minion: Tell slyrus_ about paste 79612? 04:12:05 slyrus_: please look at Paste number 79612: "Completely untested (uncompiled) possible fix for alien result truncation" by nyef in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/79612 04:12:34 hefner: I think X11 timestamps should be used for that, but I am not sure how. 04:13:23 slyrus_: Exciting, I don't know, but as I told tic_, I again had some time to work out some details about my imagined low-level CLIM-3 substrate. 04:13:52 ah, nice. i didn't realize there was any alien result truncation bug! 04:14:08 beach, do you have your imaginary clim-3 specified somewhere or is it just "things I'll probably need" 04:14:11 oh, now I remember 04:15:07 tic_: I wrote it down, and made it available here, but it is now in flux, so I prefer waiting until it is in a more stable condition to submit it. Even so, it is just a description of the very lowest level substrate. 04:15:37 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:16:01 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 04:16:02 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@82.113.121.158] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:16:02 I'll probably commit a "final" version of the patch tomorrow. About the only thing left to do is find a better name than "mode" for the new parameter for the :alien-rep methods. 04:16:45 ... Umm... SBCL doesn't handle passing COMPLEX values as parameters to alien functions on x86-64, does it? 04:17:08 *nyef* just found the part of the ABI spec that discusses it. 04:18:21 Oh well. 04:18:46 It's quarter past 11, and I have work in the morning. 04:19:02 -!- nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 04:28:13 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-22-49.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:31:04 -!- Vegan is now known as O_O 04:34:19 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.140.245] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:35:33 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.140.245] has joined #lisp 04:35:38 .. 04:35:39 . 04:35:39 . 04:35:39 . 04:35:39 . 04:35:41 . 04:35:44 . 04:35:46 . 04:35:49 . 04:35:51 . 04:35:54 . 04:35:56 . 04:35:59 . 04:36:01 . 04:36:04 . 04:36:06 . 04:36:09 . 04:36:11 . 04:36:14 ..... 04:36:16 ....................................... 04:36:58 sorry.. 04:37:40 -!- O_O [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has quit ["leaving"] 04:37:52 Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has joined #lisp 04:38:52 holycow [n=rtaylor@64.151.208.1] has joined #lisp 04:40:42 -!- bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has quit [Client Quit] 04:40:59 -!- holycow [n=rtaylor@64.151.208.1] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:42:10 holycow [n=rtaylor@64.151.208.1] has joined #lisp 04:42:41 bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has joined #lisp 04:45:19 seangrove [n=seangrov@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:45:53 hey all, does anyone have a link to the screencast by Marco Baringer? 04:46:01 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-23-68.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:46:19 the link on the common lisp directory is 404 :) 04:46:51 ah, found a copy online 04:47:25 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:47:57 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:50:01 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has quit ["leaving"] 04:50:13 Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has joined #lisp 04:50:36 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 04:52:02 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:12 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.173.118] has joined #lisp 04:52:25 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has quit [Client Quit] 04:52:37 Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has joined #lisp 04:53:36 wlr [n=walt@65.96.92.150] has joined #lisp 04:54:00 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 04:54:07 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has quit [Client Quit] 04:54:19 Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has joined #lisp 04:54:28 seangrove: otherwise it is http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov but don't ask me why `movies' is in the URL twice. 04:54:49 heh, alright, will make sure not to ask ;) 04:54:53 -!- Vegan is now known as O_O 04:55:01 do I need to install swank if I'm developing locally? 04:55:11 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 04:55:12 -!- O_O is now known as o_o 04:55:41 -!- o_o is now known as o_0 04:55:57 seangrove: Yes, but it comes with SLIME. 04:56:01 seangrove: swank is the common lisp side of slime. 04:56:05 -!- o_0 is now known as O_O 04:56:08 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.140.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:56:45 -!- O_O is now known as o_o 04:56:52 hmm, I think I got it then 04:56:58 I'll try it 04:58:08 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.136.119] has joined #lisp 04:59:25 -!- o_o is now known as u_u 05:00:44 -!- u_u [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has left #lisp 05:01:13 -!- holycow [n=rtaylor@64.151.208.1] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:01:29 Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has joined #lisp 05:02:12 holycow [n=rtaylor@64.151.208.1] has joined #lisp 05:03:31 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:08:16 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Success] 05:09:44 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 05:12:07 roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:23 -!- bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has quit [Client Quit] 05:14:06 kreuter` [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:19 bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has joined #lisp 05:15:14 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:17:35 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.27] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:18:28 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-68-142-74.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 05:31:47 -!- holycow [n=rtaylor@64.151.208.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:31:48 divinebovine [n=rtaylor@64.151.208.1] has joined #lisp 05:33:17 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 05:35:22 Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.100.250] has joined #lisp 05:35:56 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4e27.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 05:36:53 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-223-15.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 05:39:34 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:43:56 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:44:47 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:45:09 -!- bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has quit [Client Quit] 05:49:57 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-139-90.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:16 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:56:36 Jabberwockey [n=jens@82.113.121.84] has joined #lisp 05:56:39 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@82.113.121.84] has quit [Client Quit] 05:56:53 Jabberwockey [n=jens@82.113.121.84] has joined #lisp 05:58:53 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Client Quit] 06:05:54 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:09:27 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:09:52 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:11:05 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 06:12:23 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:13:15 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:15:07 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:16:40 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:16:43 JadiYa [n=a@216.71.225.62] has joined #lisp 06:17:54 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-1.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 06:17:59 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:19:52 borism [n=boris@195-50-200-72-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 06:20:08 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:21:25 -!- BrandonWilson [n=a@216.71.225.62] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:25:04 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:25:37 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 06:30:04 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 06:31:29 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@82.113.121.84] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:35:35 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.234.76] has joined #lisp 06:36:27 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:44 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087ECBB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:05 anyone know of a meaningful use for the :parameter-type keyword in define-easy-handler argument lists? 06:39:18 seems like hunchentoot 1.0.0 got a little more frameworkier 06:43:04 fusss: integer, float, etc.? 06:43:39 it does automatic type conversion of the form parameters to common lisp types 06:43:53 i can't for the life of me figure out why 06:45:07 (define-easy-handler (greet :uri "/sayhi") (name) (with-html (:p (str (format nil "Hello ~a" name)))) 06:45:10 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-131-204.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:45:45 fusss: nice thing. and btw morning :) 06:45:48 that's a hunchentoot page that responds as example.com/sayhi?name=fusss 06:45:55 hey p_l :-) 06:46:07 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-200-72-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:46:24 good morning 06:46:53 morning 06:47:00 i'm fine with the name parameter being a string, possibly in the :accept-charset encoding of the form, but hunchentoot is now doing its own type conversions. hmmm. hope Hans shows up soon. 06:49:23 fusss: it is an *easy* handler. 06:49:23 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-231-13.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 06:51:51 heh 06:51:54 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:07 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 06:57:20 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:57:31 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:21 ASau` [n=user@77.246.230.239] has joined #lisp 07:01:26 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:02:10 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:02:18 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit ["HULK ANGRY! HULK DISCONNECT!"] 07:03:55 sundar [i=IceChat7@59.92.125.30] has joined #lisp 07:04:35 -!- vinleod [n=vince@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:04:55 Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has joined #lisp 07:05:08 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F319.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Ein guter Abgang ziert die Übung."] 07:06:27 danlei [n=user@pD954F319.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:49 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:17 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.173.118] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:12:36 -!- ltriant [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:14:31 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:14:59 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:15:59 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:16:16 splittist [n=dmurray@165-109.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:16:20 morning 07:16:40 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 07:17:42 yo 07:17:52 how's the world of high-stakes hotel lawyering? 07:18:13 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 07:18:36 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:18:44 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:18:55 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:24:40 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:26:02 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit ["bye"] 07:28:28 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.170.204] has joined #lisp 07:31:32 -!- PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:32:33 #+sbcl (type (or trie (unsigned-byte 8)) tr) 07:32:33 ;; ccl is smart enough to not barf on a 0 pointer 07:32:33 #+ccl (type trie tr) 07:32:36 Krystof: Interesting times... 07:32:52 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:33:53 Krystof: but starting to feel slightly settled in GVA. (Apparently there are lisp users up the hill at CERN.) 07:35:49 dwave [n=ask@93.99.113.100] has joined #lisp 07:37:09 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:40:15 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 07:40:53 good morning 07:43:18 -!- dwave is now known as asksol 07:45:21 -!- JadiYa [n=a@216.71.225.62] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:45:45 -!- GrayMagiker [n=steve@97-123-189-76.albq.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:46:37 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.234.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:48:23 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.170.204] has quit ["On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong fi] 07:48:33 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:49:05 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:57 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 07:52:51 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-26-14.netcologne.de] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 07:53:09 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-26-14.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:53:16 thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:29 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-26-14.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:53:29 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:53:42 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:02 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:54:06 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.7.59.209] has joined #lisp 07:54:12 how does one append an empty list as the last element of a list? (append '(1 2 3) nil) doesn't work obviously... 07:54:34 (append '(1 2 3) '(nil)) 07:54:42 ah, thank you 07:55:14 (here goes the usual talk that appending to the end is slow) 07:55:50 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-26-14.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:57:24 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:57:27 how can I loop on a list destructuring two elements and then taking the next 2? 07:57:31 kami- pasted "loop" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79627 07:58:02 (loop for (a b) on list by #'cddr ...) 07:58:13 stassats: thank you 07:58:41 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:03 I saw the step-fn in the hyperspec, but didn't recognise its value :) 07:59:31 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:59:34 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 08:01:59 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.170.204] has joined #lisp 08:04:20 mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:04:20 -!- asksol [n=ask@93.99.113.100] has quit ["Be back later"] 08:05:53 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 08:05:57 Good morning. 08:07:30 Morning spiaggia. Feeling more positive on a Monday morning? 08:07:51 Symmetry- [n=thezog@92.114.165.252] has joined #lisp 08:08:25 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:26 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 08:09:01 hello 08:09:32 hello 08:11:41 splittist: somewhat! 08:11:42 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 08:14:44 -!- divinebovine [n=rtaylor@64.151.208.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:14:53 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-9cfd6ed5b57538ae] has joined #lisp 08:18:01 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:18:32 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:21:56 dkcl` [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 08:22:08 dwave [n=ask@93.99.113.100] has joined #lisp 08:22:46 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:30 what do lisp programmers generally think of prolog? 08:25:02 it's hard to generalize lisp programmers 08:25:32 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:41 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:26:29 hello. 08:26:38 stassats - what do you think of prolog? 08:27:10 i'm doing a basic tutorial and i feel like it's not something i'll end up using but learning the basics of it will help me to think of different ways to use lisp. 08:28:29 mxb [n=mxb@bealbywm.plus.com] has joined #lisp 08:29:02 i think it's cool, but i know nothing about it 08:30:22 oh ok. i am just messing around -- one of the hardest parts of autodidactic AI research is just figuring out what one should be studying. 08:30:56 study humans 08:32:22 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 08:32:44 yeah yeah -- too general :) 08:33:50 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-9cfd6ed5b57538ae] has left #lisp 08:37:22 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:43:03 hi. i am not able to separately create this error "can't open-code test of unknown type ....", which comes along, if i delete all .fas(l) files of my project and try to compile it via asdf. does someone know this error or can soeone give me a hint how to analyse my problem? 08:43:11 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6F94F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:43 (under sbcl/slime/linux) 08:45:21 ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:45:40 Ragnaroek [i=8f5df926@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7e7bed65fbd8d301] has joined #lisp 08:47:32 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has left #lisp 08:48:37 that's not an error, is it? 08:49:15 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.136.119] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:50:24 stassats: sbcl gets into debugger-mode and stops compiling. to me it feels like an error in my code. what is it, if it is no error? 08:50:25 adityo [n=adityo@59.183.60.220] has joined #lisp 08:52:02 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:00:49 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.7.59.209] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:03:47 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.137.241] has joined #lisp 09:05:59 trebor_dki: does it happen when you declare a variable to be of a class declared at the same time ? 09:06:46 -!- dwave [n=ask@93.99.113.100] has quit ["Be back later"] 09:08:03 kuwabara: what do you mean by "at the same time". i defined a class earlier in the code and yes it happens in a defun in which i try to declare a variable to be of that type. 09:09:27 moin 09:09:36 if you put the defclass into an eval-when to make sure the class is available immediately, does it still give an error ? 09:09:45 ups, wrong channel. hi nevertheless 09:10:29 moinmoin mgr ;) 09:10:42 kuwabara: i will try that (i never used eval-when) 09:11:43 my problem is now, that i can not reproduce the error at all. if i create a defun in which i declare a parameter of a unknown class - i get a different error. 09:12:29 (warning) 09:12:32 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 09:13:14 bbl - have to go to a team-meeting. 09:13:43 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 09:14:27 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@92.114.165.252] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:14:27 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 09:14:42 trebor_dki: I think compilation of a defclass on SBCL does only half the work. The type is not unknown, but it's not usable as a type declaration either. 09:16:36 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 09:18:54 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 09:19:50 dwave [n=ask@93.99.113.100] has joined #lisp 09:20:21 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:22:29 -!- dkcl` [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 09:23:46 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 09:23:55 -!- mxb [n=mxb@unaffiliated/mxb] has quit ["zzzz"] 09:25:02 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:25:06 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:25:12 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88.96.24.54] has joined #lisp 09:27:55 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 09:28:14 paw` [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:29:01 hrr4 [n=hrr4@p5081A45B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:32:32 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:34:48 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 09:35:01 dwave_ [n=ask@93.99.113.100] has joined #lisp 09:37:14 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-153-45.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:37:54 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0709.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:38:03 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 09:40:02 ia_ [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 09:40:28 masm [n=masm@198.0.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 09:40:35 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:41:23 -!- masm [n=masm@198.0.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 09:43:26 Spyderco2 [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 09:43:28 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:44:31 dwave- [n=ask@93.99.113.100] has joined #lisp 09:46:20 -!- Spyderco2 [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Client Quit] 09:46:35 Spyderco2 [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 09:47:06 -!- Spyderco2 [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Client Quit] 09:47:18 Spyderco2 [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 09:49:34 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 09:52:14 cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 09:55:12 -!- hrr4 [n=hrr4@p5081A45B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 09:55:22 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 09:56:42 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 09:57:38 -!- Spyderco2 is now known as Spyderco 09:57:48 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 09:57:58 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 09:58:15 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:27 X-Scale2 [i=email@89-180-149-195.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 10:00:08 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-26-14.netcologne.de] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 10:02:02 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 10:02:46 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.239.41] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:03:00 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-202-230.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:03:10 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as X-Scale 10:06:09 sohum [n=sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has joined #lisp 10:06:19 is there a format directive to destructure a cons list? 10:06:38 *cons cell 10:07:17 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:07:23 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:12 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:11:27 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:12:42 cracki [n=cracki@42-054.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:13:04 -!- dwave_ [n=ask@93.99.113.100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:13:32 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:13:33 Spyderco2 [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 10:14:10 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:15:23 -!- Spyderco2 [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Client Quit] 10:16:00 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 10:17:04 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:18:34 -!- paw` [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:19:22 sohum: no 10:22:46 Krystof: thanks 10:25:29 Ogedei [n=user@85.178.210.0] has joined #lisp 10:25:47 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 10:28:56 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 10:29:11 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 10:30:52 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:31:34 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@82.181.229.41] has joined #lisp 10:32:33 clhs ~/ 10:32:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ced.htm 10:33:04 Modius [n=Modius@99.179.100.250] has joined #lisp 10:34:02 *trebor_dki* is back 10:34:23 Modius__ [n=Modius@99.179.100.250] has joined #lisp 10:37:41 -!- sundar [i=IceChat7@59.92.125.30] has quit ["We be chillin - IceChat style"] 10:38:17 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.100.250] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:38:24 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F80D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:58 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 10:43:36 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 10:43:39 trebor-dki pasted " can't open-code test of unknown type " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79629 10:44:21 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:44:47 timchen1` [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 10:45:00 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@99.179.100.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:45:21 Modius__ [n=Modius@99.179.100.250] has joined #lisp 10:45:46 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 10:51:45 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 10:51:53 -!- Modius [n=Modius@99.179.100.250] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:52:09 HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:52:37 trebor_dki: your lisppasted code works here 10:52:42 is this problem specific to sbcl? 10:52:57 hello 10:53:01 trebor_dki: using sbcl 1.0.27 10:53:06 fe[nl]ix: hi 10:53:17 hi fe[nl]ix again ;) 10:53:27 hello rstandy, trebor_dki 10:53:40 rstandy: you do not get a note - nothing? 10:54:04 (if i compile it a second time, everything is ok) 10:54:09 trebor_dki: 0 errors 0 warnings 0 notes 10:55:05 sbcl 1.0.18 debian, here 10:58:00 -!- dwave- [n=ask@93.99.113.100] has quit [No route to host] 10:59:14 -!- dwave [n=ask@93.99.113.100] has quit [No route to host] 10:59:26 *trebor_dki* is installing 1.0.28 now. 11:00:04 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit ["KVIrc 3.2.6 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/"] 11:02:22 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 11:03:07 -!- sohum [n=sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has left #lisp 11:05:50 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:06:07 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 11:06:40 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-f33d538aa8e98f44] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:06:50 binarin [n=user@62.105.145.214] has joined #lisp 11:08:54 -!- HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:09:09 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:10:18 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:11:11 kglovern [n=kgn@bas1-london14-1128759065.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:11:58 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:29 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:14:22 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 11:14:28 -!- ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has quit ["ping pong poff"] 11:15:02 rstandy: using sbcl 1.0.28 i get the note if i do C-c C-k to compile the file. doing C-c C-c for each part (defclass and then defun) does not result in a note. 11:16:17 trebor_dki: in fact I used C-c C-c from the *slime-scratch* buffer and didn't get any note 11:17:50 -!- binarin [n=user@62.105.145.214] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:18:17 trebor_dki: with C-c C-k I confirm you that the note is shown 11:18:45 -!- Ragnaroek [i=8f5df926@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7e7bed65fbd8d301] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 11:21:17 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@82.181.229.41] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:22:16 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:25:11 dwave [n=ask@93.99.113.100] has joined #lisp 11:25:34 -!- dwave is now known as asksol 11:28:16 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:29:04 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:31:05 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:31:58 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 11:35:39 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:35:42 -!- kglovern [n=kgn@bas1-london14-1128759065.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 11:35:44 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.212.31] has joined #lisp 11:39:43 hi, in my widget framework, I've implemented a way to register callbacks, i.e. (set-callback widget :on-click 'method-name), and later I do a (eval (,method-name widget)) as macro. is this the proper way to keep a reference to a method-name of an instance ? 11:39:53 i mean, it works fine, but looks odd to me 11:40:04 to be specific: i want to avoid eval :) 11:40:38 (funcall method-name widget) would be a lot more normal 11:40:56 or pass a function instead of a symbol. 11:42:00 didn't know that funcall also works for methods, great hint 11:42:06 pkhuong: you mean with #' ? 11:42:14 attila_lendvai [n=ati@www.netvisor.hu] has joined #lisp 11:42:40 roidrage: well, it doesn't, but you're not storing a method 11:42:55 you're storing a symbol, and funcall works with symbols 11:43:19 accepted, thanks! 11:45:19 mega1: ping 11:45:28 fe[nl]ix: here 11:45:33 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:45:53 was it a fair summary? 11:46:01 -!- asksol [n=ask@93.99.113.100] has quit ["Be back later"] 11:46:32 mega1: is it possible to create a static (unsigned-byte 8) array using foreign memory ? 11:46:50 that is, to malloc() a piece of memory and use make-lisp-obj to turn it into lisp array 11:47:14 Joreji [n=thomas@47-191.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:48:16 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:48:21 fe[nl]ix: on gencgc, pointers outside the lisp heap will be ignored. 11:49:24 so as ub8 works, storing lisp pointers does not 11:49:33 what about cheneygc ? 11:49:55 I thought it was the same in this regard. 11:50:20 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 11:50:42 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:50:55 Might be. I haven't looked at the code in quite a while. 11:52:45 dwave [n=ask@93.99.113.100] has joined #lisp 11:52:57 fe[nl]ix: You could make an object that would simulate a lisp array but change all calls into memory operations on mmapped block, and make a finalizer for the lisp obj to release memory... 11:54:34 fe[nl]ix pasted "make-static-vector-ub8" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79633 11:55:02 I've tried to adapt http://paste.lisp.org/display/36651 but it doesn't work 11:55:20 considering that I don't really know what I'm doing, it's not surprising 11:56:05 the header is [widetag 00....] [length as a fixnum] 11:57:50 the code above you're using as a basis only works by accident (because mmap returns pointers aligned on > 256 bytes). 11:59:12 and you should (make-lisp-object (logior (sb-sys:sap-int memblock) other-pointer-lowtag)). 11:59:54 kglovern [n=kgn@bas1-london14-1128759065.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:00:36 doesn't mmap return pointers aligned to native pagesize? (or at least should?) 12:00:53 p_l: which tends to be > 256 bytes. 12:01:17 You should probably round the size up to 2 words (8 bytes here) and zero-fill the remainder. Some internal operations might abuse the fact that the heap is originally filled with 0. 12:01:49 fe[nl]ix: have a look at: http://darcs.informatimago.com/public/lisp/common-lisp/heap.lisp It implements a lisp heap on a memory block (you can use the abstract memory.lisp in the same place, or ../clisp/raw-memory{.lisp,-lib.c} to access mmaped or malloced memory). 12:01:57 pkhuong: Ah, I read that as "aligned on 256 bytes" not "> 256 bytes" 12:02:30 fe[nl]ix: the downside is that it works by "copying" lisp data to the memory block. 12:04:28 yes, scavenge() skips pointer not into from_space 12:04:43 fe[nl]ix: it should be safe on cheneygc too. 12:04:47 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:05:06 without that mmap backed file wouldn't work so it's not a surprise 12:05:36 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-73a195e77dc378f0] has joined #lisp 12:05:59 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:06:01 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-73a195e77dc378f0] has left #lisp 12:07:38 fe[nl]ix: I thought you were going to comment on serve-event 12:07:57 sellout- [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:09:01 mega1: wrt the recursiveness of serve-event, how many handlers wouldn't be easily rewritten as state machines? 12:09:31 binarin [n=user@62.105.145.214] has joined #lisp 12:11:49 I don't know how many in practice, but one of the examples I had in mind was running a function from a hook within a webserver. 12:12:44 I believe serve-event is so hairy that in practice only SBCL, SWANK and Araneida use it ;) 12:12:44 That function has little knowledge of its dynamic environment but it may still do blocking operations. 12:13:09 recursiveness of the event loop is not so rare 12:13:15 libevent, libev support it 12:15:18 how would you do the above with a state machine? 12:16:26 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-131-204.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 12:17:40 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:17:43 By warning that the hooks shouldn't block too much. You lose composability if you don't support recursivity, but gain some simplicity. 12:20:06 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:20:06 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:20:20 -!- kglovern [n=kgn@bas1-london14-1128759065.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 12:21:44 hello attila_lendvai, hope you're fine 12:25:03 pkhuong: I believe that's a valid position to take for some cases, but with serve-event already being recursive and basically fixable I lean towards not breaking backward compatibility. Especially with giving up the [small] degree of composability that serve-event provides. 12:25:03 -!- topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:25:10 hello kami-, mostly. work is still pressing though, will leave soon for another meeting (wasting time)... 12:25:14 topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has joined #lisp 12:26:19 -!- binarin [n=user@62.105.145.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:30:06 pkhuong: my thinking is like this: serve-event is quite broken as a high level interface, but its worst flaw is fixable by a hack that's needed anyway for deadlines. And deadlines are pretty fundamental. 12:31:45 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:32:33 attila_lendvai: I will post some questions regarding the ui to the cl-dwim list. would be nice if you could have a look at them. 12:33:35 kami-: some of us will. levy has more time... 12:34:25 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [""Nichts mehr.""] 12:35:50 attila_lendvai: thank you. 12:35:59 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:37:41 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89-180-149-195.net.novis.pt] has quit [] 12:39:53 benny [n=benny@i577A2530.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:41:07 sohum [n=sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has joined #lisp 12:41:33 -!- sohum [n=sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:43:14 theL00p [n=user@78.33.52.101] has joined #lisp 12:43:39 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [] 12:43:58 Liempt 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[n=user@88.170.236.224] has joined #lisp 13:26:52 p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-99331297243b1af7] has joined #lisp 13:26:52 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 13:26:52 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 13:26:52 albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 13:26:55 stinkyN1GGER [n=jerware@70.44.54.97] has joined #lisp 13:27:39 HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:27:42 is lisp a good language for hack'n shit ? 13:28:04 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago 13:28:12 ... 13:29:17 stinkyN1GGER: I suggest you change your nick to something less offensive before asking questions here 13:29:28 -!- Zhivago has set mode -b %*!*bird@79.114.91.232 13:29:49 wouldn't freenode say erranous nick if it were offensive ? 13:29:58 i mean, who's to say whats offensive. 13:30:02 the FCC ? 13:30:03 Me. 13:30:05 you? 13:30:19 well i think im fun-e 13:30:34 a lot of people find racism not funny 13:30:40 oh well. 13:30:47 they must be party pooers 13:30:49 poopers 13:30:49 Not a very bright troll. 13:30:51 and fun police 13:31:00 i just asked a simple question. 13:31:11 is lisp a good language for hack'n shit ? 13:31:25 like how Perl and C is 13:31:42 I suggest you try comp.lang.lisp 13:31:49 they tend to answer your kinds of questions at length 13:32:12 -!- Zhivago has set mode -b *!*bird@79.114.91.232 13:32:31 ok 13:32:45 whats that 13:32:49 its not a web site 13:33:19 Being illiterate must be difficult. 13:33:26 stinkyN1GGER: you just failed. I recommend learning about using internet before asking about hack'n'shit :) 13:34:45 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.149.195] has joined #lisp 13:34:54 p_l: i know how to use the internet. 13:35:25 the internet is easy. 13:35:36 metasploit is easy 13:35:41 ettercap is easy. 13:35:42 XGas [n=XGas@60-240-38-253.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:36:06 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/18cc7a823112559c 13:36:09 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:36:36 -!- cracki [n=cracki@42-054.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:36:49 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl479.nas932.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 13:39:36 -!- adityo [n=adityo@59.183.2.0] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:40:25 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:40:36 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 13:40:59 cornucopic [n=r00t@115.241.55.1] has joined #lisp 13:46:36 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-10-217.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:49:34 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88.96.24.54] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:49:45 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:51:26 -!- etate [n=etate@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has quit ["Get out of that boring IRC client! It's no good for you. Bersirc 2.2 is your answer! [ http://www.bersirc.org/ - Open Source"] 13:52:12 Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-1-14.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:56:39 nice, updated SBCL for Alpha 13:56:44 I didn't notice :) 14:03:21 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:25 -!- binarin [n=user@62.105.145.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:05:38 rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-207-118.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 14:06:39 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 14:07:54 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:08:17 isn't there an op here? 14:12:28 JuanDaugherty: me 14:12:38 can i take your order ? 14:13:53 dwave_ [n=ask@93.99.113.100] has joined #lisp 14:14:14 *JuanDaugherty* looks at drewc and Zhivago. BTW, Zhivago, are you the individual who had a heuristic for inferring the pronounciation of Hanzi based on your experience with Korean? 14:14:57 carbocalm [n=user@64.40.185.82] has joined #lisp 14:16:08 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 14:16:19 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:16:43 hm. do i understand right, that using :around in a (defmethod foo :around (obj) (if (test obj) nil (call-next-method))) will cause the test to be performed before any specialized primary method and after all specialized :around methods? 14:17:58 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:18:40 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 14:19:38 Krystof: how were you thinking that find-package-using-package and find-symbol-using-package would work? 14:20:46 (accidentally terminated session with this channel so will have missed anything addressed to me) 14:22:27 minion: tell JuanDaugherty about logs 14:22:28 JuanDaugherty: direct your attention towards logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 14:24:13 thx, stassats, did know of same, wish it still had search functions like olden days at bmeme or whatever. 14:25:27 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.120.154] has joined #lisp 14:30:44 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:54 jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 14:32:38 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:35:33 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:35:41 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 14:36:17 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 14:39:34 -!- jlf` is now known as jlf 14:40:16 ejs1 [n=eugen@68-149-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:13 jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has joined #lisp 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16:14:16 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 16:14:51 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-69-221.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:20 gtchma [n=user@bootsy.cc.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 16:20:21 what's the best IO/streams lib that you've seen in any language? 16:20:29 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:21:12 with regards to performance, utility, convenience ... 16:22:10 fe[nl]ix annotated #79633 "second version" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79633#1 16:22:15 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:16 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 16:23:03 mega1: does 79633#1 look right ? I keep getting "not a valid argument to SB-KERNEL:MAKE-LISP-OBJ" 16:24:18 mega1: I like http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3116/ 16:24:33 fe[nl]ix: does it work with %make-lisp-obj? 16:25:21 make-lisp-obj checks that the pointer is in read/static/dynamic space 16:26:12 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:26:18 fe[nl]ix: you may as well tell me what are the strength and weaknesses of zeta streams 16:26:48 mega1: in that case I get «(A SB-KERNEL:CASE-FAILURE was caught when trying to print SB-DEBUG:*DEBUG-CONDITION* when entering the debugger. Printing was aborted and the SB-KERNEL:CASE-FAILURE was stored in SB-DEBUG::*NESTED-DEBUG-CONDITION*.)» 16:26:48 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-22-49.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:26:59 -!- cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 16:28:48 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-4-42.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:30:03 cods [n=cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:36 mega1 annotated #79633 "fix" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79633#2 16:33:37 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:33:41 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:33:51 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:03 -!- ejs [n=eugen@68-149-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:37:28 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:37:33 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 16:37:41 mega1: the design is still in flux so I don't know yet what their strength and weaknesses will be 16:37:59 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 16:38:00 basically, I'm trying to combine simple-streams and fu-streams and see what comes out 16:38:07 Greetings. 16:38:15 hello tmh 16:38:33 fe[nl]ix: thanks, does the fix work for you? 16:38:43 mega1: yes, thanks :) 16:39:35 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@99.179.100.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:39:42 novaburst [i=nova@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has joined #lisp 16:39:56 Modius__ [n=Modius@99.179.100.250] has joined #lisp 16:40:57 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 16:41:11 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [] 16:41:35 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@99.179.100.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:41:56 Modius__ [n=Modius@99.179.100.250] has joined #lisp 16:42:00 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 16:42:22 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Client Quit] 16:44:06 borism [n=boris@195-50-200-72-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 16:46:00 ejs [n=eugen@216-239-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:41 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:48 rullie__ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:51:26 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:36 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@165-109.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["byee"] 16:53:06 -!- stinkyN1GGER [n=jerware@70.44.54.97] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:54:52 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:57:40 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087ECBB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:06:55 -!- rullie_ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:07:06 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 17:11:43 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 17:11:43 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:12:08 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:12:44 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:13:05 -!- paw` [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:14:12 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has joined #lisp 17:15:10 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 17:18:17 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:21:36 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:21:48 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-9f2aedd5c53fc2d8] has joined #lisp 17:23:34 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@99.179.100.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:24:13 grifaton [n=peter@78.145.50.162] has joined #lisp 17:27:28 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-69-148-18-33.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:07 Good evening. 17:31:42 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:33:43 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-69-148-18-33.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:34:06 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-69-148-18-33.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:26 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 17:37:15 ercbittin [n=user@c-65c570d5.013-56-73746f5.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:37:34 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:37:43 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:37:52 -!- mun is now known as dayzman 17:39:27 gmorning beach 17:45:28 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 17:49:40 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:00 its awfully silent here 17:52:29 everyone is writing code 17:53:11 What are good reference texts for programming language design? I have an aerospace engineering background, not a CS background. I have nearly 18 years of programming experience with various programming languages. I have 3 years of Common Lisp experience. I know what I want from an interface point of view. What I'm interested in now is learning the theory so I can make better fundamental design decisions. 17:53:27 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 17:53:50 you want to design your own language? 17:53:51 tmh: performance-wise? 17:53:58 *tmh* has fallen into the Common Lisp rabbit hole of wanting to design his own language. 17:54:28 do you also want to implement it, tmh? 17:54:59 guaqua: At least a reference implementation, most likely on top of CL. 17:55:09 tmh: perhaps you could start by designing just Domain Specific Languages over CL. 17:56:08 pjb: too late, I drank the kool-aid and ate the apple. I'm doomed. :-) 17:56:37 http://people.csail.mit.edu/gregs/ll1-discuss-archive-html/msg04323.html some thoughts about designing a language 17:57:34 -!- ercbittin [n=user@c-65c570d5.013-56-73746f5.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 17:57:49 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:58:07 This is going to be a totally back-burner, private, project that is for my own benefit. If something useful comes of it, I'll make it public, but I'm not advertising anything because I don't like talk or vaporware. 17:59:19 tmh: So, what are you trying to fix? 17:59:28 Tangent: I've found CL to be an interesting language in which to test aspects of programming language design. A problem with doing so from scratch (the other alternative) is the barrier to entry (you need to get other details filled in) and that then you are structurally entrenched in/committed to the feature whether it is desirable or not. 17:59:37 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:59:53 tmh: Not about Lisp DSL, but worth the read: http://martinfowler.com/dslwip/ ; I think reading it would also help to design a whole stand alone programming language. At least, you could prototype your language as a DSL on Lisp. 17:59:53 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:00:17 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 18:00:41 stassats`: Isn't there a similar thread where the author claims that most PL are not well designed? 18:00:45 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:01:18 -!- Ogedei [n=user@85.178.210.0] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:18 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 18:01:23 etate [n=etate@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:01:23 Well, most aren't designed, per se :) 18:01:37 Zhivago: I'm not claiming to solve anything. I'm more interested in understanding the issues. There are PL things that bug me, but I'm not educated enough to know if there are reasonable ways to do what I want to do. 18:02:20 tmh: Well, those are the things that you want to fix, right? 18:02:50 tmh: Then to be able to design a programming language, it might be good to also know how to design them, so I'd also advise to read the Dragon Book and similar literature. 18:03:03 Zhivago: I'd rather not start another discussion on "What is wrong with PL X" because my thoughts are neither well-formed or well-informed. 18:03:13 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:03:16 pjb: i didn't like that book much tbh, as a reference its good but as a read.. 18:03:32 The second edition is nicer. 18:03:35 tmh: I wasn't asking what's wrong with PL X :p 18:03:48 tmh: maybe have a look at the Parsec library in Haskell, thats v nice 18:04:07 yeah XD 18:04:23 pjb: it has nicer reference sections, ye :) 18:04:37 I've found 2 books on Amazon that seem well-rated "Advanced Programming Language Design" ~ Ralph Finkel and "Programming Language Pragmatics, 2nd Ed." ~ Michael L. Scott. Anyone read those? 18:05:36 tmh: not me, what stage are you at? 18:06:07 tmh: ( i think i missed some/most of the discussion apologies ) 18:06:31 etate: I'd say I'm have a decent understanding of how to program, I have an idea of the interface that my PL would have, I have not understanding of basic theory. 18:06:52 tmh: by interface, you mean grammar? 18:07:13 tmh: or do you mean to an existing system? 18:07:31 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:07:40 tmh: i've implemented my own simplistic lisp-ish language 18:08:07 etate: etate, I have a concept for the grammar and rough idea of the paradigm and data organization. 18:08:10 tmh: from my experience it's just best to not think too much in advance. but that's my solution for everything :) 18:08:34 *tmh* looks up dragon book 18:08:37 tmh: If I were you I would start with a meta-circular evaluator and expand out from there 18:09:10 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:12 tmh: SICP chapters on Meta Circular Evaluation + Compilation, along with the accompanying videos should get you past this stage 18:09:13 (i implemented mine in C) 18:09:36 BrandonWilson [n=a@216.71.225.62] has joined #lisp 18:09:48 etate: Ah, SICP, I don't know why I didn't think of that. I've been meaning to work through that for a while. 18:09:59 tmh: theres also a brilliant paper on the scheme 2006 workshop called "an incremental approach to compiler construction" by Ghoulum, which shows you how to get it compiled natively 18:10:10 I wouldn't bother with the dragon book these days -- you might consider appel's tiger book instead. 18:10:38 tmh, IMHO You might want to aquaint yourself of concepts such as parsing (Which would require knowledge of regex, and formal languages in general), building the data structures after parsing and finally evaluation. 18:11:09 cornucopic: I'm wanting a lisp, so do I still need to do that? 18:11:33 tmh: You might also want to check out monotonic linearization in Dylan, + procedural macros in conventional syntax 18:11:37 tmh, If you want to get familiar with it easily, PLY (a Python) package might help you . 18:12:15 Considering that he hasn't managed to say anything about what he wants to make, this advice is all very premature. 18:12:18 tmh: David Moon came out with PLOT recently, the site provides immense amounts of information if you'd like macros 18:12:26 tmh, PLY? If you want to get a feel of parsing, etc you might want to try it .. 18:12:38 dwave-_ [n=ask@93.99.113.100] has joined #lisp 18:13:35 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:13:40 Zhivago: Thanks. 18:14:01 blitz_ [n=blitz@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:11 tmh: It's why I asked what problem you're trying to solve, earlier. 18:16:45 milanj [n=milan@93.87.167.168] has joined #lisp 18:17:08 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.170.204] has quit ["lol, i wonder what their other franchises will be, Gun Shooter, Criminal Simulator, and everyone's favorite, Fantasy] 18:17:19 speaking of which, i need help with my language too 18:17:37 i'm trying to find a suitable Skeleton Syntax 18:17:41 tree 18:18:10 I can't seem to find any reference for what this looks like 18:18:34 (apart from the D-expression paper, which confuses me somewhat) :> 18:18:54 Zhivago: Yes. I haven't taken the time to research and document that different problems that I'm trying to solve. At this point, what I'm most interested in is better knowledge so that I can identify whether these are issues that justify the effort of a new language. I can't answer that with my current knowledge base and don't want to advertise my ignorance in detail. 18:19:01 etate: what paper is that? 18:19:05 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 18:19:26 sellout: http://people.csail.mit.edu/jrb/Projects/dexprs.pdf 18:20:09 tmh: I suggest picking something that annoys you, and not worrying about how horribly ignorant you are. 18:20:41 i'm with Zhivago on this one 18:21:30 tmh: type upgrading annoys me in CL :) 18:22:23 Zhivago: Ah, you've seen me griping about that here or it annoys you as well? 18:22:39 etate: Ah, yeah. 18:22:52 tmh: I haven't seen you griping about it, that I recall. 18:23:02 -!- certron [n=certron@68.197.141.64] has quit [] 18:24:39 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:24:40 Zhivago: That is one thing that annoys me, but I need to start making a list. The other is the class precedence of vectors -> vector, array, sequence, t . Having array lower than sequence has caused me trouble. Those are just a couple of things motivating me to think about language design. 18:25:56 tmh: have you looked at dylan? 18:26:28 tmh: Having array derived from vector also removes row-major-aref. 18:28:04 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087ECBB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:34 Zhivago: Well, that's where my ignorance starts to show. I have a feel for the problem, but I don't appreciate implementation and design well enough to grasp reasonable solutions. 18:30:06 So, hang your ignorance out there like a flag and let other people beat it for you. 18:30:15 Don't be afraid to be wrong. 18:30:21 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:32:24 Zhivago: It's not so much a fear of being wrong as a fear of wasting people's time. I have a great respect for the efforts of open source developers and feel responsible to do my homework so I don't ask questions that could be answered with a decent literature review. 18:34:31 tmh: People often enjoy having their time wasted intelligently. 18:35:45 tmh: people waste their time willingly on IRC daily. :) 18:36:13 and forums; http://www.draders.com/b/programmers.jpg 18:36:25 heh :) 18:36:27 etate: name two 18:36:49 lisp users are the MS be-suited person, now? 18:37:03 yeah, i found that strange too, rsynnott 18:37:54 beach: huh whaa? 18:38:08 Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:40 etate: I thought so. You can't name two people who willingly waste their time on IRC daily! 18:38:59 i do! 18:39:09 beach: I just did, huh and whaa?, ? is part of a symbol i cl i believe 18:39:12 Thanks for all of the feedback. I need to get back to some more pressing work and lunch, but I think I have an idea of how to start nailing down my thoughts on PL design. 18:40:45 beach: both happen to be excellent names for anonymous trolls too, as an added bonus 18:41:20 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 18:41:36 -!- Zhivago has set mode -o Zhivago 18:41:59 etate: OK, name *four* then :) 18:42:19 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087ECBB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["I am Locutus of Borg! You will assist us!"] 18:42:36 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087ECBB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:39 etate: I think you can't even come up with the names of 100 people who willingly waste their time on IRC on a daily basis. 18:43:11 beach: that sounds like a challenge, maybe i should put cl-iterate at work 18:43:32 etate: that might work. 18:43:32 beach: and maybe some variation on norvig's spelling corrector ;) 18:44:11 beach: it might, but then i would be wasting time in emacs AND on IRC, can't have that 18:44:36 etate: I knew you would lose that challenge. 18:44:37 tombom_ [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 18:45:28 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 18:46:32 etate: More seriously, it depends on several things such as what one would do with ones time if it weren't for IRC, and trying to estimate the value of helping a single person out or attracting a single person to Common Lisp every now and then. 18:47:24 beach: you try to attract people to CL? 18:47:39 he's good at it! 18:47:45 uh oh, I guess I am not doing a good job! 18:47:53 thanks tic_ 18:48:47 etate: To be more specific, I try to attract the people that I think might one day be net contributors to Common Lisp to Common Lisp (if you can parse that). 18:48:51 etate, you could install ERC and make the best of both? 18:49:05 beach, only those? that's a bit discriminating of you! 18:49:07 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:49:07 -!- tombom_ is now known as tombom 18:49:22 beach: yes there seems to be a distinct lack of that 18:49:25 tic_: I am very selfish, I know. 18:50:19 tic_: Then, on the other hand, I am willing to give people the benefit of the doubt, at least for a while. 18:50:36 (incf erc) 18:50:46 jao [n=jao@192.Red-83-37-137.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:57 beach: I find it problematic "contributing", I have no idea whether people want what I code or not 18:51:53 beach: usually time passes and nothing happens :) 18:52:08 beach, that is a good treat. 18:52:08 (in response) 18:52:30 also, where did lisp go on GSoC ? 18:52:43 etate: I didn't express myself very well. I don't care whether what they contribute is useful or not, as long as they are willing to try, because in that case, it can usually be improved. Not only the code but the quality of new contributions. 18:53:18 beach: in that case I have some code to put somewhere... 18:53:32 etate: Great! What's stopping you? 18:53:49 beach: errm, I have no idea where to contribute it to :) 18:54:03 *sykopomp* doesn't remember seeing anything in SoC having to do with lisp :( 18:54:04 etate: make a cl.net project 18:54:19 sykopomp: there have been several 18:54:22 etate: You come in here and ask for specific advice or feedback on some specific problem, function, or whatever. 18:54:26 +can 18:54:28 etate: what's the code in question? 18:54:39 contribution to an existing library, or something new? 18:54:41 beach: oh? I skimmed through and couldn't spot them :\ 18:54:43 sykopomp: For instance MusicXML support for Gsharp. 18:54:49 rsynnott: blender .obj importing, shader code for cl-opengl, that kind of stuff 18:54:51 nice! 18:55:05 well, it's better to make project in which you are interested 18:55:37 etate: _3b would probably really appreciate anything having to do with cl-opengl. He's really been trying to get contributions to that project (as opposed to people writing their own bindings) 18:55:50 okflo [n=okflo@93-82-154-147.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:56:07 sykopomp: yeah, the thing is the code doesn't contribute to cl-opengl, its built ontop of it 18:56:16 sykopomp: lisp-nyc wasn't accepted as a mentoring group 18:56:25 cl-opengl is good enough for everything i've tried 18:56:26 tcr: I noticed that. 18:57:08 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:57:22 I'm trying to learn ogl. Maybe at some point I'll make myself useful. I wish I had the ability to write high-quality lisp libs, but I'm terribly inexperienced. 18:57:45 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:57:47 -!- dwave [n=ask@93.99.113.100] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:57:50 <_3b> etate: i'm hoping to get some utility libs for cl-opengl going at some point, so it could fit there 18:58:49 _3b: yeah, just let me know, I'll check what I have (some of it runs on SBCL, some was meant for CLISP win32) but the CLISP stuff should run on SBCL out of the box also 19:01:09 _3b: looks like i have: texturing, shader, ftgl, vbo, .obj loading (evil code though), random maths (quaternion), perlin noise.. 19:01:11 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:01:23 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:01:30 random stuff that i use really 19:01:34 <_3b> cool 19:01:52 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 19:02:47 _3b: would you be interested in collaborating over making a game? 19:03:04 <_3b> possibly, mainly a question of finding time 19:03:10 etate: join #lispgames :) 19:03:23 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:03:37 sykopomp: wow i forgot that existed, thanks :) 19:03:45 _3b: yeah I know what you mean 19:04:47 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@193.52.24.125] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:04:56 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:06:11 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:07:03 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:07 Wombat2 [n=willy@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:42 -!- Wombat1 [n=willy@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:08:24 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-70.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:08:29 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:38 blitz_ [n=blitz@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:14 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:12:52 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:57 Hm. Did I lose beach? 19:17:25 tmh: I found this to be quite interesting: http://www.infoq.com/interviews/Steele-Interviews-John-McCarthy perhaps think about the abstract syntax thing :) 19:17:51 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:17:56 -!- dwave_ [n=ask@93.99.113.100] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 19:18:09 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:18:34 -!- ejs [n=eugen@216-239-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:20:21 -!- okflo [n=okflo@93-82-154-147.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [] 19:20:54 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 19:21:23 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:53 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:23:28 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:23:40 ejs [n=eugen@235-154-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:06 madnificent: Thanks, I've never taken the time to watch that, I should bookmark it. 19:24:36 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 19:25:51 tmh: if you don't especially like the legends, you may be more interested in reading it, it'll go a lot faster 19:26:40 tmh: the most interesting part is probably the abstract syntax. There isn't too much information about it, but in the quick overview, I think he may have a point. 19:26:48 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 19:26:52 bombshelter13_ [n=greg@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:18 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:28 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Client Quit] 19:28:36 after few hours (more like a full day) of fighting, I've got OpenGenera to show people during uni hackathons :) 19:28:39 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=greg@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:29:50 madnificent: Actually, I just switched to reading the interview. There's not much benefit for me to have to listen to it. 19:30:55 bombshelter13_ [n=greg@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:59 p_l: Are you using the SNAP4 VLM? 19:31:59 tmh: yeah 19:32:17 p_l: What are you running it on? 19:32:34 C2D T5550 19:32:37 Arch64 19:33:09 When I get hold of OSF/1 and more memory, I could try running it on real alpha 19:33:21 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:14 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:35:45 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=greg@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 19:35:50 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@115.241.147.190] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:35:58 bombshelter13_ [n=greg@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:00 -!- jao [n=jao@192.Red-83-37-137.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:37:45 hmm... Save World crashes 19:39:19 -!- proq is now known as proqesi 19:42:24 p_l: Sorry, I meant what OS? Did you have to install compat libs? 19:42:27 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 19:42:54 tmh: Linux 2.6.29.1-tomoyo, arch64 distro (warning, problems with NFS) 19:43:15 But if you already got NFS running, getting it working for Genera wouldn't be a problem 19:44:43 now, if only save world didn't crash 19:44:49 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 19:46:25 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 19:46:44 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:46:59 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 19:47:07 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@221.Red-79-152-43.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:47:12 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 19:47:52 attila_lendvai [n=ati@www.netvisor.hu] has joined #lisp 19:48:40 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-122-8.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:49 okflo [n=okflo@93-82-154-147.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:54:52 kidd2 [n=kidd@221.Red-79-152-43.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:36 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-145.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:57:12 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 19:59:47 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 20:02:31 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 20:03:10 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-40-38.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:03:42 -!- Cel is now known as Gertm 20:04:38 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.59] has joined #lisp 20:04:42 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:07:08 -!- ejs [n=eugen@235-154-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:07:20 -!- okflo [n=okflo@93-82-154-147.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [] 20:10:54 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 20:10:55 what would be the advised library to do an http post request and get the result from within lisp in a simple manner 20:11:35 i'd use drakma. it has lot of dependencies, but it works 20:12:58 hmmm, I'd prefer not to have a lot of dependencies, but its a possibility 20:13:11 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:13:16 Hey! It's only lisp code! 20:13:25 You shouldn't be afraid to depend on lisp code. 20:13:37 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:13:52 ejs [n=eugen@235-154-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:15 Bedtime! Good night! 20:16:21 good night beach 20:16:28 beach: and wow, that's early! 20:17:14 pjb: no, but I'm just doing one simple post request to a recaptcha-server... so I feel like I'd be doing something naughty if I'd depend on a bazilion libraries for nothing 20:17:42 What would you say if they were _standard_ libraries!? 20:18:01 pjb: it's also cl+ssl, so there's ffi involved 20:18:11 though it's not required 20:18:15 per se 20:18:31 If there's ffi, I don't say. Let's find somebody to rewrite it in Lisp :-) 20:18:44 :) 20:19:23 pjb: sure, but it'd still be loaded for nothing (and I may need to package it some day :)) 20:19:49 GrayMagiker [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:01 Anyone had experience using fiveam with clisp? Seems to load via asdf, but throws warnings. Just wondering if anyone else had tried it. 20:25:29 what kind of warnings? 20:26:10 Going through them now. most seem to be unused variables, which are harmless. 20:30:30 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:33:03 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 20:34:40 GrayMagiker pasted "fiveam warnings in clisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79650 20:34:57 Those are the warnings that were not unused variables. 20:36:37 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:42 GrayMagiker: those warnings are in arnesi actually, and they're harmless 20:36:46 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 20:37:44 Sounds good. just making sure. thanks for taking a look. 20:38:48 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.137.241] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:39:06 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:39:35 grifaton_ [n=peter@78.145.87.237] has joined #lisp 20:39:59 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 20:40:36 saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 20:41:59 -!- novaburst [i=nova@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:42:41 pkhuong: ping 20:43:16 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-025-060.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:52 -!- ejs [n=eugen@235-154-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:44:44 a-s [n=user@92.80.117.81] has joined #lisp 20:47:17 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4e27.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:50:46 mjf [n=mjf@r11gy75.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 20:52:33 -!- grifaton [n=peter@78.145.50.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:56:03 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:54 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@www.netvisor.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:00:14 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:00:36 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 21:01:29 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:51 -!- XGas [n=XGas@60-240-38-253.tpgi.com.au] has quit [" "] 21:02:24 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:04:05 Twilight777 [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:47 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 21:06:13 -!- GrayMagiker [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:06:34 -!- proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:07:00 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:07:17 hugod_ [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:08:12 rullie_ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:09:35 -!- rullie__ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:10:02 _3b: /join #python 21:10:09 whoops :-p 21:10:33 *_3b* refuses :p 21:10:47 manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-082-212-032-239.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 21:11:04 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:11:07 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:11:18 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:12:39 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-200-72-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:12:40 reattached to screen and that was left over from yesterday haha 21:12:58 -!- Twilight777 is now known as GrayMagiker 21:14:04 poet: ah, treasonous behaviour :) 21:14:14 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 21:14:44 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:15:13 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:17:12 we should check if he is lighter than a duck! 21:17:18 -!- cipher [n=cipher@173.48.136.239] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:17:38 a typed duck? :) 21:17:58 duck-typed duck! :D 21:18:12 (the duck typed-duck) 21:18:21 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.14] has joined #lisp 21:18:46 and then we'll find avalon occupied by french ;-) 21:19:45 apparantly trivial-http doesn't work for me (or with different words: I can't get it to work for me). I'm using the svn repository that's listed on cliki.nte 21:19:48 s/nte/net/ 21:20:07 -!- dwave- [n=ask@93.99.113.100] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 21:20:19 in what way is it not working? 21:21:11 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:38 forget about it, drakma rocks 21:22:14 *rsynnott* uses drakma over it now, yep 21:22:18 I'm actually trying to get the posts request running, but couldn't find examples of that. So I went for the get-request to try it out. (trivial-http:http-get "http://google.com/") gives me a stream, but it seems to contain no content 21:22:30 does it actually provide anything that drakma doesn't, these days? 21:22:38 rsynnott: size 21:22:43 who cares? 21:22:47 stassats`: I do :) 21:22:56 on that magnitude? 21:23:15 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:23:15 realistically, you are probably dealing with 20mb of sbcl or ccl anyway; the extra drakma size shouldn't be that significant :) 21:23:17 stassats`: I'm building a library for recaptcha, I'd rather not depend on a bazilian libraries. Above that, it doesn't matter :) 21:23:28 oh 21:23:34 *rsynnott* has one of those somewhere 21:23:43 though it uses the evil drakma, of course ;)) 21:23:50 I should probably put it online somewhere 21:24:11 rsynnott: please do, there is a google code repository for cl-recaptcha, but its emtpy (which is a petty) 21:24:17 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:39 though had to stop using it in the end 21:24:51 (the captchas were too difficult for the users....) 21:24:58 rsynnott: I was actually hoping to use that library (the rules for libraries I use are different than for the libraries I use :) 21:26:44 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-025-060.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:28:18 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:28:34 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@p54BB084D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:28:52 rsynnott: any idea on when you'd be able to throw it online? I'd like to try it out :D 21:30:34 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:32:19 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.14] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:32:57 *madnificent* still wonders what went wrong with trivial-http 21:36:32 madnificent: every user wanted to define 'trivial' to include the features they needed. 21:37:10 drewc: ah no, what went wrong with trivial here... I'm happy with a simple post-request (and it should support that already) 21:37:19 drewc: but yes, that happens with many things in lisp, no? 21:37:35 madnificent: s/in lisp// 21:41:37 :P 21:43:16 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:44:20 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 21:47:03 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:47:26 attila_lendvai [n=ati@www.netvisor.hu] has joined #lisp 21:47:36 -!- rullie_ [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:48:15 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-145.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:49:59 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:50:33 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 21:53:13 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r11gy75.net.upc.cz] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:53:51 -!- grifaton_ [n=peter@78.145.87.237] has left #lisp 21:55:48 mjf [n=mjf@r11gy75.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 21:56:24 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@75.36.207.191] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:56:29 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:06 topo_ [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has joined #lisp 21:59:29 -!- topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:00:38 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:48 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [] 22:01:50 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:07:53 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:09:19 -!- Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:10:25 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:13:14 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has quit [] 22:16:51 projections [n=p@88.235.101.2] has joined #lisp 22:17:01 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:20:18 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-145.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:20:52 alec [n=alec@pool-96-237-2-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:25 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:57 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:23:58 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:24:13 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:49 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:10 nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:14 Hello all. 22:28:57 hi nyef 22:30:15 Did I miss anything interesting? 22:30:54 don't think so 22:31:04 Okay. 22:32:13 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=greg@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 22:32:25 So, before I commit the slightly revised version of paste 79612 annotation 3, can anyone think of a better name for the new argument to compute-alien-rep-type than "mode"? 22:32:35 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["bb"] 22:32:50 Because I'm not comfortable with it, but I'm also not coming up with anything better. 22:33:00 gender 22:33:10 "gender"? 22:33:17 hahaha 22:33:50 what's wrong with mode ? 22:35:05 Because "mode" doesn't fit well with the concept of the alien representation type for an alien type. 22:35:28 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-082-212-032-239.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [] 22:35:54 And the parameter is used to distinguish between the type used normally and the type used for function results. 22:38:26 So "mode" works for "mode of operation", but is spectacularly useless for figuring out what's going on. 22:38:30 -!- carbocalm [n=user@64.40.185.82] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:39:10 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:39:34 nyef: how large is an array header on x86_64 ? two words(16 octets) ? 22:39:51 I think so, but I'm not absolutely certain. 22:40:13 Wait, yes I am. We had this out with nikodemus for padding on x86. Two machine words. 22:40:15 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:41:15 nyef: the first word being the widetag and the second the array length as fixnum ? 22:41:32 "situation" doesn't seen quite right either, and "for-use" being just plain clunky... 22:41:50 context ? 22:41:55 Oh, wait, simple vector? 22:42:03 Context might work... 22:43:24 Okay, for a vector primobj, the second word is the vector length as a fixnum. 22:44:01 And an array primobj has a pile of fields, one of which is a pointer to the underlying vector for the array. 22:44:31 nyef: no, just a simple vector of element type (unsigned-byte 8) 22:44:58 Yeah, it's widetag and then length. And then the data. 22:45:08 I forget if there's anything special in the widetag data field. 22:46:18 -!- hugod_ [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:51:44 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F80D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:53:40 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-202-230.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:53:47 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:53 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student166-11.hampshire.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:55:46 Yay for git commit --amend. 22:56:20 yepp 22:56:48 *nyef* had to look it up, though. 22:58:03 fe[nl]ix annotated #79633 "word-size-agnostic" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79633#3 22:58:28 nyef: does 79633#3 look correct ? I don't have a 64bit SBCL to test 22:58:34 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:00:10 No, it looks wrong on at least two counts. 23:00:33 Those two counts are the existance of FIXNUMIZE and SAP-REF-WORD. 23:01:12 Umm... and I don't see the need for the first #., either. 23:01:52 (This is in case we end up on a 16-bit or 128-bit word size, of course.) 23:07:24 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:14 brandelune [n=suzume@pl428.nas932.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:08:31 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6F94F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 23:09:12 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:09:14 And that's that committed. 23:09:35 -!- jmbr_ is now known as jmbr 23:10:18 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-95-53-163-120.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 23:11:26 ROTFL @ "Like warrior monks driven into hiding, the Order of the Lisp was once a powerful force that lived at the heart of next-generation computing." 23:11:28 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:11:49 blitz_ [n=blitz@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:56 p_l: ya... like the Templar :-P 23:13:51 Heh. Does that mean that the Order of the Lisp might yet return to do some major damage? 23:14:04 hopefully 23:14:32 fe[nl]ix: Any luck on a better version of that function? 23:14:49 nyef: not until Dan Brown writes a book about us 23:14:53 nyef: what C type is guaranteed to be as large as a machine word ? int, long ? 23:15:06 Umm... Dunno? 23:15:14 fe[nl]ix: I'm pretty sure int is, but I'm not positive 23:15:21 fe[nl]ix annotated #79633 "better" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79633#4 23:16:23 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:16:26 zbrown: fuck no Dan Brown ;_; 23:16:57 About the only thing left I'd worry about is if memblock doesn't have sufficiently strict alignment. 23:17:09 And it's trivial to show that it does on x86. 23:17:15 Not sure about other platforms. 23:17:17 is it a problem ? 23:17:45 If it's not aligned to (* 2 sb-vm:n-word-bytes)? Yes, it's a problem. 23:17:47 man, xach's zs3 stuff is really well documented. 23:18:00 i really like how he laid it out on his project page. 23:18:13 *Fade* makes kudos sounds to the aether. 23:19:20 For what it's worth, I suspect that it's unlikely that there isn't some data type on all systems with such alignment requirements, thus making malloc alignment sufficient. 23:19:39 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:38 nyef: these vectors are only suppose to be passed into C as char* 23:22:07 grifaton_ [n=peter@78.145.87.237] has joined #lisp 23:22:09 I'm concerned about the lisp header. 23:22:23 -That- must be aligned properly for the lowtag to work out. 23:22:26 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:58 oh 23:23:09 Essentially, the lowtag bits of the result from allocating the space must be clear (even-fixnum-lowtag). 23:23:15 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:35 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:23:37 ISTR seeing a discussion about something like this a couple days ago. 23:24:31 -!- etate [n=etate@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has quit ["Quick! Kill your client! Bersirc 2.2 is here! [ http://www.bersirc.org/ - Open Source IRC ]"] 23:25:18 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@221.Red-79-152-43.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:25:18 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:37 drafael [n=tapio@130.216.92.52] has joined #lisp 23:25:37 kidd2 [n=kidd@221.Red-79-152-43.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:03 nyef: does sb-alien:make-alien use malloc() ? 23:28:20 I believe so. 23:28:42 p_l: lol 23:28:58 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:29:01 p_l: just rest assured if he writes a book... :-| The hordes will be after us ... 23:29:19 Yes. src/code/target-alieneval.lisp, line 281 (%MAKE-ALIEN). 23:29:38 zbrown: But teh QUALITY!?!?!?!?!? The wrongness of "facts"??? 23:29:42 *p_l* screams in horror 23:30:39 nyef: my malloc() manpage says "... return a pointer to the allocated memory, which is suitably aligned for any kind of variable." 23:31:24 Right. So as long as there's a machine data type that requires 128-bit alignment on your 64-bit platforms you are guaranteed to be okay. 23:31:24 and here, it appears to be aligned on an 8-byte boundary 23:32:14 hmmm 23:33:13 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.167.168] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:33:22 And it looks like there are 128-bit types defined in the x86-64 ABI. 23:33:41 (including __int128, __float128 and __m128 whatever that is.) 23:33:51 nyef: XMM registers are 128bit 23:34:24 And __m128 must be aligned, so you're good there. 23:34:51 So what 64-bit platforms are left? Alpha? 23:35:05 SPARC? 23:35:06 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.59] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:35:06 ppc64, sparc64 23:35:12 PA-RISC 2.0? :P 23:35:16 That SBCL supports, that is. 23:35:32 Alpha doesn't count, it uses 32-bit... Umm... Damnit. 23:35:47 who knows what sbcl might support in the future ? 23:35:48 :D 23:35:51 Once again, the funkiness of the alpha port throws things off again. 23:36:01 nyef: why? :) 23:36:27 p_l: Because it uses 32-bit heap pointers and heap words. 23:36:56 nyef: ah, the 32bit-on-64bit arch? 23:37:03 like NT4? 23:37:30 Yeah, more or less. 23:37:42 But with a proper 64-bit host environment. 23:37:46 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:34 why does sbcl for alpha use 32bit pointers on a 64bit host anyways? 23:38:40 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 23:38:43 foom: some old case 23:38:54 -!- grifaton_ [n=peter@78.145.87.237] has quit [] 23:38:59 p_l: yup, he'll say scheme and lisp are the same, that no one uses lisp, and parentheses suck and whitespace is the only way to denote scope! 23:39:05 foom: I think it's awesome that that's even possible 23:39:15 (well, practical) 23:39:21 hefner: well, it's possible for any 64bit architecture... 23:39:32 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:39:39 as long as you use MAP_32BIT you're all set. :) 23:39:50 foom: on Alpha there is no such thing :P 23:40:06 foom: I think it was a combination of there not being any real need for more heap space and it being far simpler than all of the work required for a true 64-bit heap like we have on x86-64. 23:40:06 at least not on proper OS 23:40:14 I want an alpha :( 23:40:25 zbrown: Can I interest you in an alpha emulator? 23:40:26 zbrown: grovel ebay 23:40:29 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r11gy75.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:40:29 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:40:30 zbrown: why? it's rather useless 23:40:52 foom: Depends what you want to do 23:41:09 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl428.nas932.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 23:41:09 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:44 Intel practically destroyed all non x86 CPUs by telling the world how wonderful the Itanium was, 10 years back. ;p 23:42:07 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 23:42:08 nyef: so basically that code won't work on Alpha ? 23:42:19 Ah, if only we had a mobile-class ppc64 CPU... 23:42:23 foom: Compaq was in intel's pocket all the time... 23:42:28 nyef: we have, and a lot of them... 23:42:39 nyef: you might be able to 23:42:45 fe[nl]ix: Right. And it really can't, given SBCL's architecture on them. 23:42:45 Tordek__ [n=tordek@host104.190-137-245.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 23:42:49 foom: I like alphas, my only one died a couple years back 23:42:51 they're nice :) 23:43:01 zbrown: mobile ppc64? Too late. The market dried up. 23:43:11 nyef: not he emulator lol 23:43:16 no the* 23:43:38 zbrown: Fair warning: It doesn't actually -work- yet. 23:44:00 http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/perry.tgz 23:44:22 p_l: no that was HP. 23:44:33 nyef: it is only because of wrong alignment or because it doesn't set up the array header properly ? 23:44:45 foom: First decision on killing alpha was done back with Compaq in control 23:44:59 Also, Compaq didn't really know what to do with DEC :) 23:45:09 -!- Tordek__ [n=tordek@host104.190-137-245.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Client Quit] 23:45:24 I don't doubt it. Intel's Itanium = Awesome, your chip = sux mind rays were really quite effective 23:45:27 fe[nl]ix: On Alpha? It's partly because if malloc() returns a pointer outside of the addressing range (whatever it actually is) then it can't be represented as a lisp pointer, which breaks the entire scheme. 23:45:29 Tordek__ [n=tordek@host104.190-137-245.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 23:46:04 darn 23:46:31 foom: There was also this "we never made any real hw outside intel mainboards lol" :D 23:47:47 Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp 23:48:29 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-109.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:48:41 Anyone see this new book from ORielly; http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596515171/#top 23:49:02 Lisp nowhere to be seen, from the summary at least. 23:49:05 too bad the itanium turned out to be such a dud technically. Marketing really outdid themselves, though. 23:50:11 nyef: is Alpha the only port where that function breaks ? what about ppc, sparc, mips ? 23:50:28 fe[nl]ix: 32-bit SBCL port only for those platforms. 23:54:54 I don't quite follow you. it breaks on 32-bit ports for those platform ? 23:55:04 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host163.201-253-13.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:55:29 -!- drafael [n=tapio@130.216.92.52] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:55:33 No. Beecause they are 32-bit ports, they're fine. 23:55:50 It's just the wierd case of the alpha which is a hybrid port that's the problem. 23:56:04 oh, nice 23:58:25 some enterprising soul with a love of alphas could do a proper 64bit port for it. :) 23:58:40 or other ways, at that time there was no real 64bit support, while Alpha was always a 64bit chip :D 23:59:26 We could just discontinue the alpha port. It's not like anyone uses it. :-p 23:59:47 BLASPHEMY! 23:59:57 Yes.