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The COMMON-LISP package can have additional internal symbols. 01:10:52 Therefore, iff the symbol is external, it is standard 01:11:01 kpreid: Thanks! 01:11:22 Now, if you're trying to detect nonconforming implementations, you need your own list of symbols of course. 01:12:19 Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.108.245] has joined #lisp 01:14:26 -!- sellout [n=greg@24.128.50.176] has quit [] 01:15:13 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:20:30 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:10 Vegan_ [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has joined #lisp 01:22:08 -!- Vegan_ [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:22:12 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:35 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:22 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-46.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:26:05 Vegan_ [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has joined #lisp 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the connection] 04:04:00 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:07:26 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.27] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:08:15 Good morning. 04:08:58 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 04:09:10 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.231.123] has joined #lisp 04:09:38 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@66.177.17.200] has joined #lisp 04:14:10 Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has joined #lisp 04:15:11 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:17:29 good morning, beach 04:19:55 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:20:51 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 04:20:56 Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has joined #lisp 04:26:49 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-0-70.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:28:20 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has quit ["leaving"] 04:30:13 Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has joined #lisp 04:36:47 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-234-19.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 04:42:03 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-62-200.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:42:41 dkcl [n=dkcl@232.67.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 04:47:46 quare [n=quare@70-41-152-236.cust.wildblue.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:01 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:55:48 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 04:56:53 user__ [n=user@122.162.138.223] has joined #lisp 04:57:48 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@96.48.172.208] has joined #lisp 04:58:55 GrayMagiker [n=steve@97-123-189-76.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:08 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@66.177.17.200] has quit ["I'm off!"] 05:04:40 -!- user__ [n=user@122.162.138.223] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:05:31 user__ [n=user@122.162.138.223] has joined #lisp 05:05:34 -!- user__ [n=user@122.162.138.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:05:38 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:05:50 -!- dreish_ is now known as dreish 05:06:09 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:06:19 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 05:06:48 SandGorgon_ [n=user@122.162.138.223] has joined #lisp 05:07:30 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Success] 05:08:41 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 05:09:14 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.231.123] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:10:26 -!- SandGorgon_ is now known as SandGorgon 05:11:27 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:12:44 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:43 Good Morning ! 05:14:55 -!- cornucopic|dozed is now known as cornucopic 05:16:17 Good Morning ! 05:19:37 morning 05:22:05 beach, ping. 05:23:03 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@82.181.229.41] has joined #lisp 05:23:33 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-87-13.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:13 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 05:31:19 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:40 cl-irc [n=cl-irc@c-68-46-6-17.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:22 single, bidirectional flexi-stream seeking a discrete html parser for private unicode-aware good times. will provide the necessary element-type and external-format. 05:37:54 ... 05:40:45 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-69-221.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:40:50 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:52 sometime software requests are scary ... 05:44:48 you know what's scary? crashing LW, left, middle and right with a plain-text file. sheesh. 05:45:22 Lispworks? 05:45:27 yeah 05:45:51 also equally scary: coding against sb-unix thinking it was a synonym for sb-posix .. yeah, i went there :-( 05:46:07 I think it's not as scary as crashing a server and the network on which it sit using /dev/urandom and telnet 05:47:09 lisp works has nice support for typing unicode strings interactively. but it crashes early and crashes often. exacerbating (sp?) 05:49:06 also, (format (make-fd-stream 1 :element-type 'character ..) "Foo bar baz") or its less nested equivalent hasn't been working for me on sbcl. i just can't seem to create an fd stream for a unix file descriptor with any combination/permutation of its accepted arguments. 05:49:19 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 05:49:48 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 05:51:17 cornucopic: I'm here, but no more continuations please. 05:51:42 beach, Sad for me. Np. 05:51:52 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2E703.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:52:42 cornucopic: Well, Scheme is kind of off-topic here, and there is really not much more to say. 05:53:58 Ogedei` [n=user@78.52.235.69] has joined #lisp 05:54:18 beach, Okay. I am just trying to understand diff. examples, and might do with some help. Its not more in the code, but that in the concepts, I am trying to decipher. No issues though. 05:55:41 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 05:57:04 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@96.48.172.208] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:57:11 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@96.48.172.208] has joined #lisp 06:00:03 Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp 06:00:10 \o/ 06:00:30 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:02:14 phtml is the BEST html parser out there for unicode stuff 06:03:18 for some reason i keep getting extra ^@^@^@ padding, it has to be the way i'm calculating the buffer size for read-sequence, which is (file-length file), but everything including LW are working for me now :-) 06:03:31 minion meno for _3b: Yes, sdl-base::with-pixel is what I use to access the pixels of an SDL surface. 06:03:49 minion memo for _3b: Yes, sdl-base::with-pixel is what I use to access the pixels of an SDL surface. 06:04:20 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@82.181.229.41] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:04:30 minion: memo for _3b: Yes, sdl-base::with-pixel is what I use to access the pixels of an SDL surface. 06:04:31 Remembered. I'll tell _3b when he/she/it next speaks. 06:04:38 third time lucky. 06:04:51 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:06:07 minion: memo for deepfire: sdl 1.3 is able to create multiple top level windows. 06:06:07 Remembered. I'll tell deepfire when he/she/it next speaks. 06:09:54 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.174.60] has joined #lisp 06:11:17 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has quit ["leaving"] 06:13:18 konr1 [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 06:19:11 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:19:33 hmmmm, phtml == cl-html-parser; two independent portable forks of the franz html parser. 06:19:46 exitr 06:19:50 -!- Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has quit ["Balooga has no reason"] 06:20:36 salvete! 06:21:21 -!- saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [] 06:24:03 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-231-13.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 06:27:56 Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has joined #lisp 06:29:37 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-68-142-74.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:31:07 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-68-142-74.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:31:49 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-68-142-74.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:32:52 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:35:24 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-68-142-74.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:35:50 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.138.223] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:36:01 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-68-142-74.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:36:15 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-139-90.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:18 danlei [n=user@pD9E2E703.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:00 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-68-142-74.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:40:43 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.140.245] has joined #lisp 06:41:55 waterh [n=waterh@114.143.32.75] has joined #lisp 06:43:55 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.174.60] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:44:59 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:46:05 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 06:47:32 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:48:13 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-234-19.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 06:56:48 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:57:32 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:02:23 -!- konr1 [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:02:28 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:06:02 It used to be the case that X11 (and therefore CLX) applications recommended NOT to use backing stores for windows, because of limited memory available to the X server. Is that still a valid recommendation? I am asking because it greatly simplifies applications if backing store is used. 07:06:53 beach: use it 07:06:54 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:07:40 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:08:21 but possibly in moderation :) 07:08:31 -!- topo_ [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:08:34 -!- Ogedei` [n=user@78.52.235.69] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:08:37 p_l: That was my thinking as well. Even a 1600x1200 screen only uses 8Mbytes of memory. 07:09:24 topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has joined #lisp 07:09:59 Now granted, if every application uses backing store, and I have 36 active workspaces, each one using a dual 1600x1200 screen. Then that might become a bit tight. 07:10:16 beach: problem is that many apps seem to be written assuming they are the only process whatsoever. Not an insinuation, but I'm getting tired of the main graphical app here, firefox, consume memory amounts that would be enough for small-scale nuclear simulation... 07:10:38 p_l: I see yes. 07:11:26 mouratov [n=mouratov@94.41.38.189.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:11:43 half of it for dubious attempts at caching, by appearances 07:13:46 OK, help me work this out. Assume I am *not* using backing store, but instead a client-side frame buffer. What are the possible race conditions that I can get if I answer exposure events from the frame buffer. 07:13:50 s/./?/ 07:14:34 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:14:44 hmmm... something updating internal framebuffer while you move it to display? 07:14:55 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:15:09 p_l: You may assume that I don't process events while updating the frame buffer. 07:15:17 *p_l* is not a good display programmer, so he is not sure 07:16:15 p_l: In other words, when an event is processed the frame buffer reflects the way an application is supposed to be presented *at some point in time*. 07:16:25 beach: assuming you flush the whole frame into display server, I don't know if you can get any... it's getting complicated lowlevel... 07:16:43 I know, that's why I am asking. 07:17:39 I was assuming that only updated parts of the frame buffer were to be sent to the server, but I don't see how that makes a difference. 07:18:00 c|mell [n=cmell@x250017.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 07:18:22 I guess it comes down to low-level details of display system in question 07:18:25 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 07:18:41 p_l: I was assuming X11. 07:19:16 beach: I can prowl library copies of X11 manuals today, but I'm not sure I'll find anything :) 07:19:36 p_l: No, don't worry about it. 07:19:52 p_l: I was just asking for help thinking this through. 07:20:41 beach: is that for McCLIM? 07:20:55 p_l: Yeah, sort of. 07:21:36 nice :) 07:21:54 How do you know? It's not done yet! :) 07:22:59 beach: it's nice seeing people working on it :) 07:23:23 Ah, OK, thanks! :) 07:24:00 brb 07:26:16 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-149-243.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:29:04 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-81-1.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:29:14 karlw [n=user@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:30 -!- waterh [n=waterh@114.143.32.75] has quit ["What?! Open source isn't good enough for you? Bersirc 2.2 [ http://www.bersirc.org/ - Open Source IRC ]"] 07:30:30 -!- topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:30:35 topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has joined #lisp 07:30:47 roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:14 g'day 07:33:52 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:35:06 -!- mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:36:35 good day, schme 07:38:00 Hello p_l ! 07:46:40 topo_ [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has joined #lisp 07:47:12 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 07:51:23 topo__ [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has joined #lisp 07:53:03 -!- karlw [n=user@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:53:22 hey schme 07:53:32 hello beach ! 07:53:33 -!- topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:55:16 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@90.184.205.169] has joined #lisp 07:55:49 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.238.44] has joined #lisp 07:56:11 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:20 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@115.241.173.121] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:59:48 vinleod [n=vince@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:09 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-149-243.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 08:05:48 morning 08:06:36 -!- topo_ [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:13:38 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:19:41 Good morning, everyone. 08:20:38 hello tic_ 08:21:15 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:22:37 hello tic_ 08:23:16 dzie? dobry. 08:23:29 tic_: fix your encoding :) 08:23:55 non-utf8 is so last century ;-) 08:24:05 i run a 2007 era slime. was there a weird bug that was fixed where forms get truncated with an ellipsis and its hard to get them to expand? I can copy the form and paste it just fine, but it truncates itself to "(defun foo () ..." for example. why? 08:24:23 p_l, yeah, I blame my old latin1 server I run irssi on. 08:24:34 oh. 08:24:48 *p_l* got all-utf8 irc after moving shell accounts 08:25:25 fusss: get truncated where? 08:25:43 tcr: at random points, usually in the body 08:25:46 fusss: That sounds like some sort of outline-mode 08:26:15 You can have emacs not show bodies of functions etc. for quick reading over a file (i.e. to hide details) 08:26:27 perhaps it's not outline-mode, I think I forgot the actual name of that mode 08:26:32 the ellipsis? this is all stock slackware emacs. i just hold on to an old slime that i copy around. no outlines modes installed. 08:26:58 I have no other idea. :) I do not know of any such bug. 08:27:05 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has quit ["leaving"] 08:27:11 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.238.44] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:27:13 perhaps it's time to dare an update? 08:27:18 tcr: no worries 08:27:22 Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has joined #lisp 08:27:26 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:27:35 yeah, perhaps. i will find a good 2008 era copy ;-) 08:28:27 i dunno what changed since the removal of the animated banner, i felt like people were struggling with configuration issues. 08:28:37 s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-230-70.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:42 fusss: I've got one of 2009 vintage that appears to work and not crash. But I'm fairly basic user, so it might miss something :) 08:28:44 slime's split up in contribs now 08:29:15 tcr: split up how? 08:29:34 fusss: You have to add slime/contrib to 'load-path, and then do a (slime-setup '(list of contribs you want to use)), recommended is (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) 08:29:41 fusss: you have to load chosen features, which are placed in contrib dir. 08:29:54 oh. 08:31:09 paren matching with M-(, tab completion, and ability to show arguments is all i ever use anyway. 08:33:49 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-3305.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 08:36:19 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-168-238-252.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:40:52 but.. but.. paredit? 08:41:33 no quiero 08:42:22 i sometimes have to code live on a 256mb vps 08:42:46 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:43:09 That sounds painful. 08:43:55 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 08:43:57 i hardly notice the change, actually 08:44:21 my actual machines are 256 and 1gig respectively. and the 1gig is windows xp. 08:48:56 puchacz [n=puchacz@87.194.5.99] has joined #lisp 08:49:20 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Client Quit] 09:01:24 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:04:09 topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has joined #lisp 09:04:09 -!- topo__ [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:11:38 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:16:31 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-87-13.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 09:24:16 HG` [n=wells@91.108.127.160] has joined #lisp 09:30:38 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [] 09:30:59 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483A6BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:09 ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:36:27 p0a [n=user@athedsl-385948.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 09:36:29 Hello 09:37:07 Sometimes there's accumulation code that conses recursively 09:37:22 ok? 09:37:50 and usually there's NREVERSE after the consing done. My question is, why do that instead of using LIST*, which will save the NREVERSE call? 09:38:02 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1C5E.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:39:06 As such: (defun name (parms) (when parms (list* (car parms) (cdr parms)))) 09:40:09 (list* item list) <=> (cons item list) no difference. 09:40:13 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-2-96.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:40:38 Yes 09:40:42 list* is for more than one item 09:40:58 But it is still equivalent to cons. 09:41:00 a cons for that... I see, alright thanks. I'm not sure what I was thinking 09:41:24 p0a: perhaps you mean to use APPEND. The reason why it's not a good idea to use it is that it's O(N). If you call it N times, you get O(N^2). 09:41:35 no, not what I had in mind 09:42:37 p0a: (let (r) (dotimes (i 10) (push i r)) (values r (nreverse r))) 09:43:10 The first result is implementation dependant. 09:43:21 (push i r) ? 09:43:27 clhs push 09:43:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_push.htm 09:43:45 No, lol I mean which result is implementation dependent? 09:44:03 The results are given by values 09:44:16 what's implementation-dependent? 09:44:29 the first is r. You will always get the same cons cell, r, but it's cdr will depend on the implementation of nreverse. 09:44:37 It means as long as the implementation documents it, it's allowed to be anything the implementation wants it to 09:44:40 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 09:45:10 pjb: Oh yeah true. 09:45:33 p0a: No that was a thinko on my part, replace NREVERSE with REVERSE 09:45:45 puchacz pasted "unicode and yacc" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79594 09:45:58 hi guys, what does the error above mean, pls? 09:46:31 pjb: I don't understand this myself, can you explain it for me too? (cdr r) is implementation-dependant? And why is that? I know nreverse modifies the argument 09:46:35 a namespace conflict? 09:46:46 But are you implying that the list from DOTIMES and push shouldn't be modified? 09:46:49 Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has joined #lisp 09:47:28 puchacz: perhaps. there seem to be two definitions for the same CONFLICT-WARNING class. 09:47:54 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.170.204] has joined #lisp 09:48:08 puchacz: It could be a package issue. Hard to tell. What's your sbcl version? 09:48:12 pjb: I tried to add (:shadowing-import-from yacc :conflict-warning) (:shadowing-import-from ucw-user :get-header) to my system definition, but it did not help 09:48:20 tcr: 1.0.28 09:48:40 puchacz: try to grep conflict-warning to see where it's defined. 09:48:51 pjb: sorry: (:shadowing-import-from yacc :conflict-warning) and (:shadowing-import-from cl-unicode :conflict-warning) 09:48:58 p0a: No. VALUES was supposed to return the list built, and its reverse. But nreverse modifies the original, so it doesn't display the expected. 09:49:19 pjb: ok, and then? disable exporting it? 09:49:53 pjb: of course, silly of me... I'm going to sleep some, bye everyone 09:49:57 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-385948.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["sleep"] 09:50:06 puchacz: Does the error appear when you try to load cl-unicode, or when you load your own system? 09:50:28 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-202-230.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:50:32 tcr: all loading is initiated by my file.... not sure how to answer that 09:50:52 puchacz: Well, the best would be if you could paste your file 09:51:08 puchacz: I don't think it is a shadowing eg a symbol problem. It is a redefinition of the class. So rather loading files in the wrong package. 09:52:21 tcr: I can, but it is a big mess. I take it as a last resort :-) 09:53:11 pjb: how can something like this happen? 09:53:30 something's wrong in your defpackage form for example 09:54:40 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483A6BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:54:45 tcr: it is the same as it used to be before I upgraded 1.0.20 -> 1.0.28 and upgraded a lot of libraries 09:55:21 stale fast may also be a problem 09:55:34 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-3305.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 09:55:37 I commented out (require 'yacc) and it went further :-) 10:00:14 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:04:23 puchacz: The warning usually happens because you have removed an exported symbol from the source file, and then you try to create the package again when you load the file defining it. The error, however, is strange. I am guessing stale fasls as well. Try recompiling. 10:05:28 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 10:12:15 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 10:13:54 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C3B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:56 beach: thanks, removing all fasls now 10:19:43 Ragnaroek [i=54a6516d@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e2c63153bc8b3dea] has joined #lisp 10:23:27 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:23:43 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2E703.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:23:56 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483A6BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:30 danlei [n=user@217.226.231.3] has joined #lisp 10:28:40 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 10:32:49 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:33:49 paw` [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:35:45 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 10:38:21 beach: Yeah it looks like that. But sbcl should be able to detect stale fasls since some time. 10:40:23 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-3305.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 10:46:47 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:54:26 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-128-68.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:55:43 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:00:53 tombom [i=tombom@82.25.203.43] has joined #lisp 11:04:04 topo_ [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has joined #lisp 11:04:04 -!- topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:06:42 guille_ [n=guille_@83.39.171.106] has joined #lisp 11:08:43 -!- paw` [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has left #lisp 11:18:20 benny [n=benny@i577A0709.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:20:42 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 11:23:08 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.170.204] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:23:26 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:24:25 cornucopic [n=r00t@115.241.33.227] has joined #lisp 11:29:48 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C3B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:30:14 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.150.8] has joined #lisp 11:33:15 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@96.48.172.208] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:33:24 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:56 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 11:37:32 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-149-243.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:37:47 -!- HG` [n=wells@91.108.127.160] has quit [Client Quit] 11:39:36 paw` [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:42:57 RPGKHFan [n=user@p57B11202.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:43:03 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 11:43:46 hi, my windows computer won't turn on, i'm talking on my mac 11:43:53 i press the power button and nothing happens 11:44:12 RPGKHFan: wrong channel? 11:44:23 got a better one i could use? 11:44:37 no 11:44:44 lol, kk 11:45:33 Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has joined #lisp 11:45:43 RPGKHFan: Is it plugged in? 11:46:11 RPGKHFan: and are you sure its a computer? Could you be mistaking it for a brick? 11:46:19 lol, yeah, it's plugged in 11:46:25 :) 11:46:33 the man who mistook his brick for a computer. 11:46:40 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.140.245] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:46:46 and his cd drive for a cup holder 11:47:05 RPGKHFan: if its not doing anything at all when you press the button it sounds like the PSU is the first thing I'd check 11:47:07 beach: sounds like title of a film 11:47:22 stassats`: I was thinking book but... 11:47:56 film based on that book 11:48:17 RPGKHFan: it is likely that if it were not the PSU it would actually do something, maybe flash lights or beep. There's also the possibility you've somehow broken the button or that the connection for the button's switch has come loose from the mobo. 11:48:36 yeah 11:48:57 i just got a new power supply after it broke 11:49:03 cause the other one was kinda old 11:49:05 Hmmm is there a way to create a binary via SBCL for a program without it being the minimum size of the lisp image? 11:49:08 still not turning on 11:49:20 hrm 11:49:31 i think it might be the motherboard 11:49:37 entirely possible 11:49:54 ok, but it has nothing to do with lisp 11:50:02 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.140.245] has joined #lisp 11:50:06 zbrown: no, there is no 11:50:08 yeah 11:50:14 stassats`: ok, just curious 11:50:27 sbcl's executables are easily compressed 11:50:37 stassats`: is there a way with any other lisp env, it doesn't actually have to be SBCL? 11:50:52 commercial ones 11:50:58 ah ok 11:51:06 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:51:12 hmmmm its not that important, I was just curious :) 11:51:13 or ECL, but you need libecl.so also 11:51:23 ah ok 11:51:37 stassats`: People usually don't count .sos. 11:51:48 -!- vinleod [n=vince@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:51:55 stassats`: so in that case, SBCL is a stand alone and doesn't need external deps? 11:52:09 it probably needs libc still 11:52:12 zbrown: it needs libc 11:52:20 ok, thats fair enough 11:52:39 and ecl doesn't include compiler 11:53:10 It does in recent versions. COMPILE compiles to byte-code 11:53:43 Ya, I was curious if there was something similar to chicken scheme that goes to C or something. :) 11:54:04 i meant compiler to native code 11:54:13 zbrown: well, ECL does that 11:54:21 zbrown: Well ECL does that, but it also contains an interpreter and a byte-code interpreter 11:54:52 hmmm cool 11:55:12 as understand, CLX doesn't support XKB extension? 11:56:33 -!- RPGKHFan [n=user@p57B11202.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 12:00:14 stassats`: Seems that way. Would you like to write CLX2? It could use a more CLOS-y look as well. 12:00:51 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-212.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:01:09 CLX has support for extensions :) but not many are implemented. 12:01:55 sohum [n=sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has joined #lisp 12:01:56 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:02:07 beach: i would like, but i'm afraid of lack of motivation and it will take very long time 12:03:00 -!- tcoppi [n=nuclear@57c3ed63-1294-45bd-a8e8-cdcc07cfa16f.static.grokthis.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:03:17 I have a file that has (load ...) and (with-open-file ...) statements in them, assuming a certain current directory. I wish to load this file from a different current directory, but not break that code. how do I do that? 12:03:38 clhs *d-p-d* 12:03:40 *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS*: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_defaul.htm 12:04:27 sohum: You might want to consider not having (load ...) in a file that you load, but instead using ASDF. 12:04:42 beach: what about with-open-file? 12:05:19 sohum: Typically, those would be inside a function, and not on the top level. 12:05:26 sohum: *d-p-d* was for you 12:05:55 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:08 stassats`: I realised, and I'm poking through it. thankee. 12:06:17 beach: does that make a difference? 12:07:41 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:07:58 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:13 sohum: When you have it inside a function, you typically pass it the file name to open, so that is resolved at execution time. 12:08:30 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:12:50 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-2-96.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:16:02 Does anyone else get israel spam on @common-lisp.net mailinglist that is allegedly sent from gwking? 12:18:13 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has joined #lisp 12:18:39 koning_r1bot [n=aap@e244075.upc-e.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 12:19:26 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@e244075.upc-e.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:21:15 Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has joined #lisp 12:22:52 iassai_ [n=iassai@84.21.126.104] has joined #lisp 12:25:14 HG` [n=wells@91.108.127.160] has joined #lisp 12:26:17 -!- mouratov [n=mouratov@94.41.38.189.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:29:31 -!- iassai_ [n=iassai@84.21.126.104] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:30:35 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:30:41 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-40-17.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:31:32 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:33:45 tcr: I remember some a few months ago, but I thought it was from gking ... not gwking 12:35:16 iassai_ [n=iassai@84.21.126.104] has joined #lisp 12:35:24 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:35:25 http://metabang.com/unclog2008/?p=80 12:36:06 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-212.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:36:14 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:37:12 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 12:37:13 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 12:37:14 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:37:29 tombom [i=tombom@82.25.203.43] has joined #lisp 12:38:21 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:41:47 -!- guille_ [n=guille_@83.39.171.106] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:41:49 -!- Vegan is now known as O_0 12:42:43 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:43:18 -!- O_0 is now known as Vegan 12:47:12 -!- Vegan is now known as ^O_O^ 12:51:24 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-40-17.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:55:44 -!- HG` [n=wells@91.108.127.160] has quit [Client Quit] 12:57:53 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a6516d@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e2c63153bc8b3dea] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 12:59:20 does cl-who give me a way to pass in an actual list, generated at runtime? 12:59:41 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@115.241.33.227] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:00:35 -!- ^O_O^ is now known as testeeeww 13:02:15 fiveop [n=fiveop@87.158.174.122] has joined #lisp 13:03:08 -!- testeeeww [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has quit ["leaving"] 13:03:21 Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has joined #lisp 13:14:38 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 13:19:55 boydh_atha [n=user@76.18.198.218] has joined #lisp 13:20:12 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:20:43 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250017.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:22:29 c|mell [n=cmell@x250049.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 13:27:05 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.170.204] has joined #lisp 13:30:52 nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:56 G'morning all. 13:33:24 <_3b> Balooga: cool, thanks 13:33:25 _3b, memo from Balooga: Yes, sdl-base::with-pixel is what I use to access the pixels of an SDL surface. 13:35:01 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:17 hi nyef 13:36:32 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.243.106] has joined #lisp 13:41:46 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.142.52] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:43:01 dialtone [n=dialtone@93-34-8-7.ip47.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:43:46 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 13:49:26 projections [n=p@88.235.101.2] has joined #lisp 13:53:55 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 13:55:21 How do you guys jump to a place where a function or macro is defined? I am using etags, but I thought there might be a better way. 13:55:35 slime 13:55:37 <_3b> M-. does that in slime 13:55:59 stassats: _3b: oh really. I didn't know that. thanks for the info. 13:56:03 i will try that way. 13:56:12 -!- _8david` [n=user@pD9543601.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:57:05 tomoyuki28jp: you need to first load that code before being able to use M-. 14:00:59 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:01:06 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 14:01:23 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 14:01:30 fe[nl]ix: what do you mean by "load the code"? open a lisp file where a function/macro is defined? 14:02:18 clhs load 14:02:18 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm 14:02:39 mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has joined #lisp 14:02:39 preceded by compile-file 14:03:00 stassats: oh, I got what that means. thanks 14:03:11 Not necessarily preceeded by compile-file, though that -is- the usual scenario. 14:04:35 M-. works, but how can I go back to the original place? 14:04:43 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:04:51 M-, 14:05:06 stassats: works great, thanks! 14:05:22 *nyef* knew that was possible, but doesn't use it so didn't remember the keys for it. 14:06:28 I don't know why I had been using etags. The slime one is much better. 14:06:30 thanks guys. 14:07:20 Why etags? I'd suggest inertia. It's what you presumably would have used elsewhere, and thus you knew how to set it up and didn't need to look for an alternative. 14:07:27 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:09 nyef: Is that better than the slime one? 14:08:22 Not really, no. 14:08:35 It's a plausible explanation. 14:08:35 nyef: okay. thanks. 14:08:44 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 14:08:44 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@93-34-8-7.ip47.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["leaving"] 14:08:49 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 14:08:55 dialtone [n=dialtone@93.34.8.7] has joined #lisp 14:09:15 postamar [n=postamar@76-10-160-143.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:09:19 Even in C, I find systems such as etags to be less than useful. 14:09:20 theL00p [n=user@78.33.52.101] has joined #lisp 14:10:06 i don't like idea of generating tags each time 14:10:49 I don't like that the tags parsers can't handle the code I tend to throw at them. 14:10:54 stassats: me neither, that's why I was looking for something better. 14:11:24 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 14:11:25 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:11:30 Generating tags isn't really an issue for me in languages that traditionally involve make in their build process. 14:11:58 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 14:14:42 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C3B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:47 -!- paw` [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:17:56 nyef: You don't use M-. and M-,? 14:18:41 nyef: may I steal (with credit, obviously) your lh-guid or similar ideas for my ELS tutorial? 14:19:43 I use the one and not the other. 14:19:49 -!- iassai_ [n=iassai@84.21.126.104] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:20:16 Krystof: Feel free. Have you seen hgdiobj.lisp yet? 14:20:28 I have not! 14:20:38 http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/hgdiobj.lisp 14:20:41 *Krystof* looks 14:20:43 It has some known failings. 14:20:49 Krystof: , btw. The file won't COMPILE-FILE correctly; that's expected. You want the match-node macro, which is a wrapper around SPLICE-FUN-ARGS. 14:20:58 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-68-239-77-4.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:15 (Most notably, typep on alien values such as stack-aliens is performed without reference to the actual data, just its declared type.) 14:21:42 And let me see if I've got hwnd.lisp anywhere you can see it... 14:22:27 pkhuong: thanks. I did establish for myself that MOD does benefit from inlining currently: give it a small divisor and it'll go all the way down to DIV / IDIV if appropriate 14:22:33 so I probably want to preserve that 14:23:02 or an inlining transform. 14:23:09 So much for hwnd.lisp being easily accessible. 14:23:19 *nyef* fires up the VM that the main copy is hiding on. 14:23:55 Krystof: I have a few ideas for a COM interface based on this same set of techniques. 14:24:49 pkhuong: right; that means I have to work out which types should trigger the inlining 14:26:49 nyef: sure. I probably won't demo this exactly, 'cause I'll be on my linux laptop :-) 14:27:14 Fair enough. I'm sure you'll find -some- use for the technique. 14:27:45 http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/hwnd.lisp should be up now. 14:28:01 thanks 14:28:35 It's a more "normal" arrangement than lh-guid, as it's wrapping a pointer type, while still being less elaborate than hgdiobj's automatic type checking. 14:29:05 Dare I ask what your tutorial is going to be about? 14:29:14 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:30:45 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.170.204] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:31:41 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.170.204] has joined #lisp 14:31:41 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 14:32:55 nyef: "Unportable but fun" 14:33:00 Ah. 14:33:06 Sounds like a good topic to me. 14:33:52 Need an example of using Linux IOCTLs directly from SBCL? 14:34:21 sure, why not? 14:34:28 I'll take anything interesting 14:34:39 http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/lh-usb/ 14:35:19 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.140.245] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:36:37 I also have a sample for direct access to MMIO video card registers ( http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/crtc-lcd-test.lisp ). Putting together a sample for direct port I/O would be harder, because it'd require defining the port I/O instructions, but I've done that before it'd "just" be a matter of digging out my old definitions and setting them up for a live system. 14:37:10 -!- beach [n=user@90.60.228.18] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:40:33 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl275.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 14:41:18 hi, I have a beautiful stack trace, and a local variable in a frame: SB-DEBUG::ARG-0 = #, but no luck with coping to REPL. any hint, pls? 14:41:26 -!- sohum [n=sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has left #lisp 14:41:28 yesterday's Slime and yesterday's SBCL 14:41:33 from source 14:42:14 i.e. slime from cvs and sbcl 1.0.28 14:43:04 nyef, sb-x86-portio? 14:43:05 deepfire, memo from Balooga: sdl 1.3 is able to create multiple top level windows. 14:43:24 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C3B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["I am Locutus of Borg! You will assist us!"] 14:43:25 nyef: hi 14:44:02 deepfire: Um... Neat. Yeah, that'd do. 14:44:06 p_l: Hello. 14:44:20 nyef: btw, any significant changes to alpha emulator? 14:44:23 nyef, that's your work, wrapped up.. 14:44:41 deepfire: I guessed, given the first hit on google. 14:45:13 p_l: Functionality-wise, not yet. I did start the renaming and set up a proper defsystem for it, though. 14:45:49 ergh, the git link in the wiki is messed up.. 14:46:01 nyef: Oh, I was just about to start on that :D 14:46:09 cornucopic [n=r00t@115.241.89.123] has joined #lisp 14:46:26 nyef: BTW, Which cpu you were targeting? EV5 or EV6? 14:46:37 fixed 14:47:26 EV5 or EV56. Thus far, I haven't seen anything that hasn't been EV5 (no BWX or MVI yet). 14:48:02 I've been going with the Alcor-2 chipset docs, though, which are for the EV56. 14:48:50 nyef: Cause depending on exact version, I might have found a bug in PAL code support 14:49:03 Just pushed http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/perry.tgz with my latest. 14:49:04 Oh? 14:49:09 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C3B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:13 wait a while, I'll fetch the book I found the info in 14:49:27 Okay. 14:51:01 ok, this little thing was introduced in 21164 and I don't find it in enter-palmode - register shadowing 14:51:19 Ah! 14:51:26 Doesn't matter yet, but good catch. 14:51:58 eight registers are shadowed for palmode in EV5 and later, so that PALcode for those assumes those registers are free to use 14:52:19 (The reason it doesn't matter is that the CPU starts in PALmode and the emulator dies when it first tries to leave.) 14:52:37 ok, re: my debugger and presentations question, I found a workaround. I created a variable (defparameter *preso-1* nil) in REPL, then I evaled in frame (by pressing "d" key) (setf mypackage::*preso-1* sb-debug::arg-0) and I have the object in REPL now. 14:52:45 but it was not the most convenient way :-) 14:53:29 citation: "Modern Processor Design - Fundamentals of Superscalar Processors", ch. 7.3, p. 318 :) 14:54:09 international beta edition from 2003 ;-) 14:54:10 alpha simulator in lisp? 14:54:21 guaqua: yes 14:54:47 puchacz: Can you try to come up with a minimalistic test case? 14:55:06 tcr: sure 14:55:16 Also in the 21164 HRM, page 6-4. "The 21164 Ebox register file has eight extra registers that are called the PAL shadow registers." 14:55:24 :-) 14:55:52 Only applies when in PAL mode and ICSR is set, overlays R8 through R14 and R25. 14:56:14 *p_l* ponders adding PALcode to MMIX 14:56:17 Which means, given that it's contingent on ICSR as well, that I should add them just in case. 14:57:02 -!- boydh_atha [n=user@76.18.198.218] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:57:49 btw, does anyone use Lisp for VLSI design? 14:57:51 Once I finish the renaming stuff, I'm planning on throwing everything in git, which should make it easier to pass changes around. 14:58:05 Umm... ISTR hearing something about that... 14:58:18 -!- Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 14:58:22 One of the european names that doesn't tend to frequent IRC, maybe? 14:59:04 tcr: first (defun hello-debugger (a) (setf a (+ a 1)) (break "") a), second evaluate (hello-debugger 6) in Sbcl's repl (not Slime repl - I am running slime-connect), then right click on value, copy-to-repl and press enter at the copied value. 14:59:22 Something about custom hardware design to solve financial problems faster than conventional PCs, with proof-checking so that it is known to be correct, wasn't it? 15:00:10 nyef: I think it would be in Haskell, then 15:00:34 Haskell and OCaml tend to get around in such high-level of financials 15:01:09 For chip layout? I'd have expected a lisp-based DSL, possibly backing on to ACL2. 15:01:30 nyef: for the whole top to down design 15:01:31 Anyway, vague memory, at least a month old by now. 15:01:35 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250049.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit ["Instain to the do way"] 15:01:52 a certain commercial haskell-based tool was Bluespec 15:01:55 And more likely to be two or three months old. 15:02:41 puchacz: which value? 15:03:00 nyef: Marc Battyani. 15:03:23 Yeah! That sounds about right. 15:03:26 tcr: (HELLO-DEBUGGER 7) Locals: A = 7 in sldb buffer. right click on 7 15:03:41 p_l, that guy held a lesson about Bluespec in class a couple of years ago. Very interesting to hear about. 15:03:43 Which would also explain the hash collision with Marco Barringer (sp?). 15:03:53 puchacz: Works for me, although I do not do it through slime-connect 15:04:09 -!- postamar [n=postamar@76-10-160-143.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [] 15:04:22 tcr: it works for me too if I evaluate (hello-debugger 6) in Slime's REPL 15:05:28 tcr: actually, does not work either 15:05:52 puchacz: works through slime-connect, too, for me 15:06:27 nyef: Just one "r" 15:06:35 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:06:47 tcr: ok, I wonder why 15:06:56 Krystof: If you're still here, can I ask your opinion on including something like paste 79210 annotations 1 through 3 in SBCL? I'd do some reordering and cleanup on the actual changes (and possibly another round of review) before committing, but do you feel it's worth doing? 15:07:04 puchacz: I do not know. I'm afraid you're on your own tracking this down. 15:07:16 tcr: no worries, thanks. 15:07:53 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-230.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:08:09 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87.194.5.99] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 15:08:18 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 15:08:42 beach [n=user@82.125.234.202] has joined #lisp 15:08:50 Good afternoon. 15:09:05 I've got a list of items and I want to iterate over them, however sometimes I need the next item in the list and sometimes I don't. In something like C or Java I'd use a for loop on an array so I could index. I know I could do this via recursion but am curious if there's another way to do this? 15:09:36 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 15:09:38 what do you want to do with the next item? 15:09:44 Hello beach. 15:10:13 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 15:10:13 tcr: process it in some way. The list is actually a 'control list' for a simple VM so some instructions take arguments and some don't. 15:10:24 tcr: ie: LD 1 vs JUMP 15:10:30 err not jump, JOIN 15:10:38 act 15:10:42 stupid slash 15:10:43 zbrown: Why not make it (:LD 1) and (:JOIN)? 15:11:00 Well, if it's actually a LIST, I'd consider using POP to get elements... 15:11:20 hmmm that would work 15:11:43 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.236.80] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:11:47 zbrown: So you have a list of lists, then you use destructure-case (copy from swank.lisp), and you do (dolist (instr lists) (destructure-case instr ((:LD arg) whatever) ((:JUMP) (whatever)))) 15:12:22 zbrown: What nyef said, otherwise you could use (loop for (a b) on list ...) 15:12:45 zbrown: but then the argument will be the value of a in the next iteration. 15:12:53 beach: well the issue with (loop for (a b) on list ...) is that that would remove the first two elements every time right? 15:12:54 beach: That gets icky if you need to inhibit... yeah. 15:13:01 zbrown: no 15:13:05 oh ok 15:13:16 zbrown: Only if you loop on list by #'cddr. 15:13:21 ah ok 15:16:28 guille_ [n=guille_@106.Red-83-39-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:44 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0709.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:21:38 mouratov [n=mouratov@94.41.38.189.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has joined #lisp 15:26:58 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1D7C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:01 -!- projections [n=p@88.235.101.2] has quit [] 15:35:09 nyef: those build changes look sensible to me 15:35:25 tcoppi_ [n=nuclear@57c3ed63-1294-45bd-a8e8-cdcc07cfa16f.static.grokthis.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:08 Krystof: Cool. I'm thinking of re-doing them with a re-ordering of parts of src/cold/shared.lisp and having the hash table used for stem uniqueness checking operate in terms of object file names. 15:37:03 Davidbrcz [n=david@193.52.24.125] has joined #lisp 15:37:04 benny [n=benny@i577A0709.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:37:16 After that, should I just check them in, or ask for futher review? 15:37:57 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host226.190-138-161.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:00 checking them in is fine; I guess just try to look for comments that the changes outdate 15:38:30 Fair enough. I think I'd do that anyway. 15:39:20 About the only other thing I can think of is that /target/ is really the wrong name, as it's more /arch/ than anything else, but that's minor, really. 15:41:24 gigamonkey [n=user@99.39.5.80] has joined #lisp 15:41:27 -!- tcoppi_ [n=nuclear@57c3ed63-1294-45bd-a8e8-cdcc07cfa16f.static.grokthis.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:42:48 postamar [n=postamar@76-10-160-143.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:43:04 -!- postamar [n=postamar@76-10-160-143.dsl.teksavvy.com] has left #lisp 15:44:43 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:46:27 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:50:11 This kinda borders on a slime question, but I've been running into this issue a lot lately and have a feeling some know what to do. When I evaluate and compile the buffer (C-c C-k), it complains about the package not being found (I'm doing a defpackage, then in-package of the one defined in the buffer). The only way I can get around that is to manually require everything that would be in the buffer (e.g. mccclim), then defpackage 15:50:12 manually then manually type (in-package ..), it's turning out to be quite a bit of manual stuff I need to do to make this work. 15:50:22 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [""Nichts mehr.""] 15:51:18 You want to use asdf. 15:52:18 I did that before as well, and you're right..that gets around this, but having to symlink every project I'm working on (all the .asdf files) to here is kinda a pain, maybe I should find the environment variables for searching this easier. 15:52:52 pain? 15:52:54 Something about a system-definition-search-function comes to mind, as does a central-registry? 15:53:13 ln -s projects/*/*.asd ~/central-registry/ 15:53:30 You can also C-c C-k on your .asd before loading the system 15:54:47 stassats: keep in mind eveyrthing I'm doing now is just lots of little scripts for exercises, not for anything "serious", so I'm starting new projects nearly every day. 15:55:02 pkhuong: I like that idea, I'll mess with that. Thanks. 15:55:18 rdd [n=user@c83-250-153-45.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:55:52 You might also be restarting your environment more often than most of us. 15:55:56 so why is it painful to make a symlink once a day? 15:56:28 TDT: You can also do (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (require :foo) (require :bar)) at the top of your file 15:57:03 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-24-220-184.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:48 stassats: "painful" may be not the most precise word, closer would be just asking if there is something easier, less manual, and less error prone to fixing the issue :) 15:59:26 tcr: Nice..well, I'm glad there are multiple options - I'll try that as well and see which one works the best for me :) 16:00:08 TDT: It works well as long as your project is not big enough to be split up into several files 16:00:40 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.150.8] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:00:58 Yeah, these are very very very simple programs, if one wants to even call them that. It's still mucking around learning, nothing too serious quite yet. 16:01:30 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.180.80] has joined #lisp 16:02:14 TDT: could be worse; you could be on windows, where there are no symlinks 16:03:02 ... Although, there are persistent mutterings about using windows shortcut files for the same purpose. 16:03:53 <_3b> they seemed to work well enough for the purpose last t ime i used clisp 16:04:29 I think that might be a clisp special. 16:04:30 Well, one of the big things I'm having problems with at th emoment is trying to use lisp on multiple environments, since I'm using extra packages and developing my own - setting stuff up before I work on it has become a very annoying and time consuming task 16:04:32 <_3b> directory search is easier though, if there isn't asdf-install or clbuild to make the links though 16:04:40 <_3b> nyef: it is 16:05:04 Of course, a custom definition search function isn't that hard to write either. 16:05:09 Right now trying to fix mcclim for example because it's not working exactly correctly on ubuntu for me...well few things are now after upgrading sbcl, and all my packages seem stale. 16:06:12 alec [n=alec@pool-96-237-2-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:29 btw, anyone thought of rewriting CLX to use XCB data? 16:06:30 poet [n=tim@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #lisp 16:06:43 -!- stepnem is now known as | 16:06:46 I think the idea has been mentioned a time or two. 16:06:52 But what would it gain? 16:06:56 is (loop for f in list...) the best way to loop over a list? 16:07:04 nyef: immediate access to all new stuff in X11 protocol 16:07:08 poet: Have you considered the use of DOLIST ? 16:07:13 -!- | is now known as stepnem 16:07:24 poet: essentially: yes. 16:07:51 jackdaw [n=chris@cpe-098-122-166-119.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:08:00 nyef: and XCB afaik makes it easier to make alternative implementations (most of it after all is generated by XSLT) 16:08:37 -!- djarvelis is now known as nerdvelis 16:09:47 p_l: Sounds like a nice project! Go ahead and do it! 16:10:26 poet: depends on taste, but there's certainly nothing wrong with it 16:10:29 beach: haha. Might get to it if I don't forget :) But first things first, and current CLX seems well used :) 16:10:49 the hard bit I think in writing more CLX stuff is not the protocol 16:11:08 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@99.39.5.80] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:11:34 I would think the hard part would be to figure out how to map the protocol to a Common Lisp API. 16:11:39 it's already almost trivial to write a (with-buffer-request-and-reply ...) form that does lots of magic stuff 16:11:58 Indeed. I know from CLXS that the protocol is, ultimately, fairly easy to deal with, and it's the semantics and interface to lisp that's harder. 16:12:10 -!- mouratov [n=mouratov@94.41.38.189.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:12:33 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:12:52 hah. Knew it wouldn't be needed much :D Though it would be interesting to see if one could get all the protocol stuff in CLX replaced with stuff autogenerated from XCB specs 16:13:37 Interesting, maybe, but that swaps out the maintainance burden of the protocol description for dealing with an XML and XSLT setup, does it not? 16:13:51 nyef: unfortunately, yes 16:13:56 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:09 one can skip the XSLT part by parsing the specs with Lisp, I think 16:14:13 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 16:14:41 I think that it would still be easier to maintain the current lisp setup. 16:14:54 so can this macro from practicle common lisp be translated to use a different interative technique like dolist ? http://paste.lisp.org/display/79597 16:15:33 poet: Not easily, as it collects results. 16:15:48 Try macroexpanding it :) 16:15:57 Oh, wait, what am I thinking? One of the MAP functions should do the trick, should it not? 16:16:08 I figured the collection part is key because you need to expand all tests into a series of form 16:16:17 <_3b> mapcar would work, but wouldn't be much shorter 16:17:21 Sometimes it is just easier to use LOOP. 16:17:26 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.212.31] has joined #lisp 16:17:29 <_3b> ,@(mapcar (lambda (x) `(report-test ,f `,f)) tests) ? 16:17:57 <_3b> s/`,f/',f/ 16:18:10 <_3b> actualy, s/x/f/ too 16:18:11 and what happens to X? 16:18:35 It was f'd. 16:18:50 yeah that did the trick 16:19:07 I guess to me loop code, while more compact, doesn't quite feel right 16:19:57 Which leads to the question "why doesn't it feel right?" 16:20:15 Because it's a horrible ad hoc kludge. 16:20:20 I guess because it's a pretty significant abstraction that I didnt write 16:20:35 It will take you a while to become comfortable with which loop idioms make sense. 16:20:49 *_3b* likes it aside from lack of specified/portable extensibility 16:21:45 poet: If that is your usual thinking, you are in big trouble programmingwise. 16:21:47 <_3b> not sure how much of my preference for loop over iterate is just familiarity though 16:22:26 Don't knock familiarity as a factor in tool preference. 16:22:58 <_3b> i'm not 16:22:58 beach: I don't see how that follows 16:23:44 I'll revise my previous statement to say it's a pretty significant abstraction that I didnt write which doesn't appear to quite fit into the design style of the rest of the language 16:23:51 poet: Any programming language is an abstraction over the bits and bytes of pure machine code... 16:24:42 Any programming language above an assembler contains an abstraction over the native machine data model. 16:24:46 right, and there are plenty of abtrastions in lisp that seem intuitive to me, but loop just feels like someone threw it in there becuase other languages provide similar functionality. But that's just my newbie perspective 16:25:13 *abstractions 16:25:15 You don't like FORMAT either, do you? 16:25:27 poet: that's a ver different statement. 16:26:04 format does feel a little weird as well 16:26:16 And what about setq and setf, they are so not functional constructs. 16:26:33 but I recognize the necessity of printing, wheras as shown by people here, mapcar was a fine replacement for loop 16:26:55 no, it's not a replacement 16:27:00 There are things that would be far more verbose expressed in forms other than LOOP. 16:27:01 poet: Only if you want to return a list the same length as the one you passed. 16:27:25 poet: Think of loop as being a toolbox that grewed. 16:27:32 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-23-68.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:27:40 "grewed"? 16:27:43 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:43 minion: paste 20135? 16:27:44 Paste number 20135: "loop with six for clauses" by nyef in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/20135 16:27:45 Missed that one. 16:27:51 Like Topsy. 16:28:06 *rsynnott* likes loop these days 16:28:47 (Yes, you probably could do that with mapcar. But it'd be harder to read and harder to write.) 16:28:56 beach: Literary reference :) 16:29:02 nyef, that's a good example, thanks 16:29:38 "grued"? 16:29:45 =) 16:29:50 -!- ejs [n=eugen@143-201-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:29:57 *nyef* has the sudden urge to play Zork again. 16:30:35 Hrm... A MAPCAR, a LAMBDA of three arguments, a LET*... It's doable, but it'd be quite a bit further left. 16:31:33 -!- drwhen [n=d@216-67-73-247-rb1.fai.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:31:51 Alternately, introducing a helper function wire-type-slot-reader-function might make things simpler as well. 16:31:58 <_3b> 'for x from 0' is an example of something that is harder to add in with mapcar (in CL at least) 16:32:34 *rsynnott* is currently working on a bloody zork webgame :P 16:32:50 rsyn: Not for jolt? 16:33:05 yep 16:33:22 "zork webgame"? 16:33:23 (not in lisp; a previous web game was) 16:33:27 nyef: indeed 16:33:30 Try to make it, um, interesting. 16:33:32 Dare I ask? 16:33:40 (I did n't design the damn thing; I just program it) 16:33:40 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:45 *rsynnott* refuses responsibility 16:34:05 I think that somehow they kind of missed the point of zork :( 16:34:15 yes 16:34:20 I'd agree with that 16:34:30 www.legendsofzork.com 16:34:39 The UI is lovely, though. 16:35:07 assuming you've got the bandwidth for it, yep, it's quite nice looking 16:35:13 some of the art is very good 16:35:49 <_3b> rsynnott: are you at omacindustries.com? 16:35:53 yep 16:36:06 ... Illegible, but interesting. 16:36:30 <_3b> cool, wondered if anyone from there was in #lisp when i saw an ad for them looking for lisp people :) 16:36:30 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-196.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:36:34 Oh. One of the backdrops hadn't loaded. 16:36:56 _3b: no longer looking for lisp people, I think 16:37:05 <_3b> yeah, i think it was an old ad 16:37:07 ROTFL @ "Cure for Swine Flu" :) 16:37:40 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:38:56 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.180.80] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:39:27 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.5.53.215] has joined #lisp 16:42:26 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:42:33 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 16:43:18 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-0-70.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:44:06 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:46:57 ejs [n=eugen@68-149-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:27 tcoppi_ [n=nuclear@57c3ed63-1294-45bd-a8e8-cdcc07cfa16f.static.grokthis.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:48 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C3B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:52:03 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087E92F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:05 -!- tcoppi_ is now known as tcoppi 16:52:29 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@87.158.174.122] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:53:59 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:56:30 blitz_ [n=blitz@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:22 judithtgilde [n=judith@117pc222.sshunet.nl] has joined #lisp 16:58:53 -!- judithtgilde [n=judith@117pc222.sshunet.nl] has left #lisp 16:58:55 benreesman [n=ben@ip68-101-196-173.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:22 HG` [n=wells@91.108.127.160] has joined #lisp 17:06:47 phren[0] [n=phren@c75-111-233-24.sangcmtk01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:20 -!- phren[0] [n=phren@c75-111-233-24.sangcmtk01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:08:11 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:58 -!- tcoppi [n=nuclear@57c3ed63-1294-45bd-a8e8-cdcc07cfa16f.static.grokthis.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:14:58 sdsds [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:54 -!- sdsds is now known as dto` 17:16:58 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 17:17:55 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 17:20:00 milanj [n=milan@91.150.101.249] has joined #lisp 17:22:25 -!- topo_ [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:25:46 -!- guille_ [n=guille_@106.Red-83-39-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 17:26:04 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:26:42 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:27:35 mouratov [n=mouratov@94.41.94.126.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has joined #lisp 17:27:41 did anyone already try to generate clx code from xcb xml descriptions? 17:28:00 anyone have any idea what's wrong with this macro? http://paste.lisp.org/display/79600 17:28:55 with-gensyms isn't defined 17:29:00 -!- mouratov [n=mouratov@94.41.94.126.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 17:29:09 mouratov [n=mouratov@94.41.94.126.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has joined #lisp 17:29:25 I thought it was built in 17:29:30 no 17:30:11 spec_afk [n=SomeOne@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 17:30:16 Hello 17:30:21 blitz_: Every time the question comes up, including about an hour and a half ago, the conclusion is that it's not worth the trouble. 17:30:29 -!- spec_afk is now known as mrSpec 17:30:38 poet, see alexandria for that and ONCE-ONLY, another classic one. 17:31:10 awesome, Ill check it out 17:31:15 *nyef* prefers not to use WITH-GENSYMS / WITH-UNIQUE-NAMES and ONCE-ONLY. 17:31:39 practical common lisp, which i assume you are reading, has with-gensyms 17:31:40 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:31:54 yeah that is what I am reading 17:32:27 nyef, why? 17:32:27 then you are reading it not carefully enough to miss the description of with-gensyms 17:33:10 deepfire: For WITH-GENSYMS, I find it easier to use LET and GENSYM directly. 17:33:21 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:33:28 For ONCE-ONLY, I think it's one of those situations that I just don't run into often enough. 17:33:34 That said, however... 17:33:41 minion: paste 50355? 17:33:42 Paste number 50355: "A tale of two once-onlies" by nyef in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/50355 17:33:45 ah you're right 17:33:56 silly me 17:34:21 (Note that the version in the annotation is not semantically equivalent.) 17:36:07 nyef, by not emitting progn when nothing is once-onlied? 17:36:51 Actually, Hrm. 17:37:21 No, the annotation is LET, not LET*. 17:38:51 ignas [n=ignas@85.110.246.151] has joined #lisp 17:39:15 Ok, my brain is a little too mushy for now.. 17:39:37 Yeah, once-only is a nasty bit of brain-twistery. 17:40:10 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 17:42:16 topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has joined #lisp 17:42:45 nyef: not worth the trouble? because it only "solves" the protocol handling stuff? 17:43:59 Because the protocol handling stuff is already largely solved, and using the XML data would introduce additional dependencies to the build process. 17:44:07 minion: Logs? 17:44:08 Logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 17:44:17 As I said, we discussed this about 90 minutes ago. 17:44:27 Well, maybe 115 by now. 17:44:32 haha 17:44:42 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 17:44:57 when blitz_ asked, I thought he was going to talk about "oh no, someone asked that again" :D 17:46:18 added to minion now :) 17:46:30 minion: xcb 17:46:30 xcb: It has been discussed over and over, and the conclusion is always "it's not worth the trouble" 17:46:48 nyef: you wouldn't need to write it in a way that introduces these dependencies at build time. I am just going to do this. ;) 17:47:14 it would be interesting if you did the server side with that 17:47:15 blitz_: Have fun, then. 17:47:29 Again, not worth the trouble. :-P 17:47:31 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.170.204] has quit [" And i have a very clever and adorable insane asylum!!"] 17:47:47 nyef: I think it could benefit stumpwm. 17:47:51 nyef: that's my main motivation 17:48:11 although I think making it so that from Lispy definition used by server/client library you would generate xcb-style XML spec that could be used for generation of libraries for other langs... 17:48:21 assuming you want to break X11 and create X12 :) 17:50:05 Damnit, now you guys have me thinking about hacking on CLXS again. 17:51:19 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.27] has joined #lisp 17:51:22 clxs? 17:51:34 http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/clxs/ 17:52:12 nyef: If there is one conclusion to draw from the last minutes of discussion: if you have fun doing it, just do it. :) 17:52:27 -!- mouratov [n=mouratov@94.41.94.126.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:53:15 Well, yes. But another conclusion is that future project maintainance needs to be considered in the cost function for any given hack. 17:53:34 nyef: lots of unmaintained CL code around... 17:54:02 And how much of that unmaintained CL code still gets used? 17:54:21 nyef: lots of projects use CLX and it is by most standards quite unmaintained 17:54:41 It's "stable", not "unmaintained". 17:55:00 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 17:55:31 nyef: we had some discussions in #stumpwm some time ago and concluded that it would be great if someone steps up and creates a real clx project with bug tracker, central repository and all the bells and whistles 17:55:35 AIUI, there's a pile of changes in a public repository (darcs or git, I forget which), and all it "really" needs is a release manager and a website. 17:56:13 *p_l* read that as AUI and thought "wtf ethernet has to do with it" :D 17:56:34 p_l: Network transparency, of course! :-P 17:57:50 -!- HG` [n=wells@91.108.127.160] has quit [Client Quit] 17:58:02 nyef: yes 17:58:17 CLX is unmaintained? 17:58:29 blitz_: Well the someone could be you. :) 17:58:49 tcr: I knew this comment would pop up ;) 17:58:51 hefner: No, it just needs a website, release manager, and release policy. Sortof like McCLIM. 17:59:01 *nyef* ducks. 17:59:19 hefner: the problem (at least from stumpwm's perspective) is that lot's of people use lots of different CLX versions 17:59:24 hefner: and some are crap 17:59:43 blitz_: that's their fault. everyone should use christophe's clx. 18:00:01 Why not move christophe's clx to c-l.net? 18:00:03 hefner: a "unified" CLX with a nice website would go a long way to solve this. 18:00:13 tcr: Isn't it already on c-l.net? 18:00:28 nyef: it is, but not as project or is it? 18:00:29 I got mine from his university account, iirc 18:00:44 tcr: I use http://common-lisp.net/~crhodes/clx 18:01:08 I'd check where I got mine, but since being informed that the error with the asdf-installable version is, in fact, ignorable, I tend to stick with that one. 18:01:23 benreesman_ [n=ben@ip68-101-196-173.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:31 blitz_: You could request a new project on c-l.net. Then subscribe the mailinglist to gmane so people can easily subscribe to it. Give it a website explaining the current state of affairs. 18:03:01 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 18:04:41 -!- benreesman [n=ben@ip68-101-196-173.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:06:16 mxb [n=mxb@bealbywm.plus.com] has joined #lisp 18:06:17 -!- mxb [n=mxb@unaffiliated/mxb] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:06:25 tcr: I do not have time to maintain such a website. in the end it wouldn't be better then the mess that is the cliki page 18:06:27 mxb [n=mxb@bealbywm.plus.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:02 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:09:12 I don't think that much maintenance will be needed. The point if you want change, step up first. For example, people often lament that there are no real release for Slime, the website is horrendously out-of-date etc, but none has ever wanted to actually provide help. So nothing's changed until now. 18:09:56 clearly we need an AI to do such maintenance ;-) 18:10:29 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:43 Hell, just setting up an automatic timeboxed release system would do most of the job. 18:11:07 nyef: true 18:11:16 nyef: a simple tool that would take branches named in certain way, pack them, and mark a "release" :) 18:11:25 Not even that. 18:11:53 I can't wait for someone to try generating XCB protocol stuff for XKB. Because someone is then going to be enlightened 18:11:59 nyef: Well, I'm too lazy to provide real releases, as someone had been calling us for not using asdf-install ;) 18:12:33 Three templated automatic timed emails, one to say "approaching code freeze for release", one to say "entering code freeze", and one to say "release complete". An automatic process to tag HEAD as the new release at a certain time, create tarballs, and upload to the website. And so on. 18:12:47 I still thing that gem/cabal like distribution system coupled together with VCS/DVCS support would be best 18:12:59 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-246.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:13:18 I have some ideas, but it's only an idea (and I'm certain to be reamed for some of it :D) 18:14:00 (there's a reason it's called bddwlp :P) 18:15:21 cause evil was too obvious 18:16:14 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:16:36 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:54 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:19:48 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@94-224-246-148.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 18:20:01 p_l: a distributed system would be a definite win 18:20:28 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:45 madnificent: I like rubygems-style system, i.e. you enter a list of "directories" and it can check them all 18:21:02 kind of like package managers in linux distros 18:21:33 it's certainly a nice approach 18:21:40 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:22:02 -!- mxb [n=mxb@unaffiliated/mxb] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:22:04 p_l: some way of saying what version you want from a repository is a win too. With something like that you could install a certain version of an application easily 18:22:39 madnificent: rubygems has that 18:22:42 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:31 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-130.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 18:23:32 *madnificent* doesn't know the ins and outs of rubygems (but likes the idea 'till now) 18:23:38 -!- benreesman_ [n=ben@ip68-101-196-173.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 18:23:43 p_l: can't we just use rubygems out of the box? 18:23:58 I was thinking of making a tool that could use existing data from clbuild, mudballs as well as provide it's own "directory", and then download releases as well as data from VCS (including chosen versions from VCS) 18:24:18 madnificent: it might be possible, but you'd need to make people use that and augment it for ASDF/mudballs 18:24:25 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:25:28 you can tell asdf to load all (sub)directories from a given path. If the gems would install in a certain directory (which is .gems for rubygems) you could simply scan that. It wouldn't work well if you'd have multiple versions of a gem installed, but I'd say thats a feature that can be added later 18:25:35 Muzzleflash [n=Muzzlefl@d40a2040.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:26:20 my idea was also to have a system for managing "environments". Such an environment would include settings for ASDF/mudballs repos, chosen lisp implementation etc. 18:26:39 p_l: it would be good if we could use rubygems as is, in order to see if the whole idea would work (without the fancy extras) 18:26:47 p_l: that would be handy 18:27:14 Distributed Environment Versioning In Lisp? 18:27:24 nyef: Wow, that's the perfect name :D 18:27:36 So you could create a "project", add only chosen systems in chosen versions, and have said project's environment separate from systemwide install or other projects. So if you have an app that works only with certain versions, and another which requires another version, you don't have to do it manually 18:27:52 nyef: It sounds certainly better than "Bad Deeds Done With Logical Pathnames" 18:28:09 Indeed. Especially considering the limits to LPNs. 18:28:21 (No underscores?!?) 18:28:24 p_l: if you add a launcher for your lisp environment, you could easily add the correct asd's to the loaded asd's 18:28:30 -!- Muzzleflash [n=Muzzlefl@d40a2040.rev.stofanet.dk] has left #lisp 18:28:34 how does this differ usefully from distributing a project with all its dependencies in one huge tarball? 18:28:49 madnificent: the system would manage said launcher 18:28:53 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151400.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:29:17 hefner: the "project" part was about managing environments locally 18:30:03 p_l: so, when will you start a project about it? and when can I testdrive it? (willing to help out, but don't have an immense amount of time, nor experience) 18:30:05 as for distributing, you could make a "release" which would mark "I want this, this and this in said versions", with default version being "newest stable" 18:30:27 madnificent: it's brainstorming time! :D 18:30:49 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151400.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:30:54 p_l: what's to manage? 18:31:16 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@94-224-246-148.access.telenet.be] has left #lisp 18:31:42 it would be nice if you could choose your own versions. The vendor could give you version names, but you should be able to say: I don't want the vendors 2.4.22-b4, I want to have version 3512 (svn) or something like 6ea57674f for git 18:31:57 p_l: cl-librarian may have been a bit in that direction btw 18:32:11 madnificent: it was kind of inspiration 18:32:15 I remember reading something about it, but never really checked it out 18:32:55 if you contact the author, he'll probably be glad to help out 18:33:05 don't know if he's very active in lisp-development for now 18:33:11 right now I'm filling recruitment agency registration forms one after another, looking for a flat etc. so it will take some time :) 18:33:27 ? 18:34:40 But when I get to sit down I'll try to write some proof-of-concept code 18:35:03 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.140.245] has joined #lisp 18:35:19 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.27] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:35:57 *hefner* continues not to understand the actual problem here, or why you can't solve it using fairly low tech means 18:36:27 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:45 p_l: how about trying to use the standard gems first? I'd like to see how it works out. I'm asuming that we'd learn from how that works and thus learn how we can mold it to something useable for lisp 18:37:03 hefner: I was looking for a way of providing a cabal/gem like experience, except with lisp. clbuild is fairly close, but it doesn't support multiple versions (something that gems support) 18:37:30 cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 18:38:15 -!- HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:38:24 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 18:39:05 if it works and people like it, fine, if not, well, I might learn something from that :) 18:42:25 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-40-17.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 18:46:14 tcoppi_ [n=nuclear@57c3ed63-1294-45bd-a8e8-cdcc07cfa16f.static.grokthis.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:31 -!- tcoppi_ is now known as tcoppi 18:50:46 dulouz [n=ross@dsl254-119-219.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:46 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:56:07 -!- holycow [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:56:19 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151400.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 18:56:33 SandGorgon_ [n=user@122.162.140.245] has joined #lisp 18:57:38 holycow [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:33 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 18:58:41 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["leaving"] 19:01:35 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:15 -!- pragma_ is now known as snhmib 19:03:31 -!- snhmib is now known as pragma_ 19:04:08 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.140.245] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:04:12 -!- SandGorgon_ is now known as SandGorgon 19:05:01 If I'm reading in a word list which I want to search through for matches, what would be the most efficient data structure for this purpose? A binary tree using alphabetical order as an equality test? 19:05:28 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 19:05:52 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@www.netvisor.hu] has joined #lisp 19:05:56 depends on the number of words. 19:06:03 quite a large number 19:06:17 a tree (not necessarily binary) would be nice, sure. What kind of matches you're looking for? 19:06:42 Then a tree, but not a binary one. Index each level by the letter. 19:06:53 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-40-17.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:07:10 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151400.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:07:22 I want to build a simple spelling corrector, so I think first Ill look in the data structure for a match, if I dont Ill try to make common corrections like eliminating repeated letters and switched letters 19:07:52 If it's an exercise, ok. Otherwise you may use aspell with cffi. It works well. 19:08:02 if you know the first and last letter of the match, you can make such an index too, I guess. But I don't know how usable it would be for spellchecker 19:08:38 I'm not really concerned about production level accuracy, just writing a fun lisp project using good design practices :-p 19:08:51 though I guess many words are misspelled in the middle, as we tend to ignore differences if overall word seems matching :) 19:08:53 poet: Perhaps a Trie? 19:09:06 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-231-13.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 19:09:34 And I don't think there's a public implementation of Tries. So you could actually release something 19:09:48 now that would be cool 19:09:52 Yes, that's what I meant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trie 19:12:07 awesome, thanks guys 19:14:48 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-230.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:15:00 -!- ignas [n=ignas@85.110.246.151] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:16:07 paw` [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:08 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-201.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:23:20 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-201.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Client Quit] 19:24:27 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 19:24:43 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:24:55 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 19:25:08 afk 19:25:31 -!- jackdaw [n=chris@cpe-098-122-166-119.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:28:26 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.27] has joined #lisp 19:29:34 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-1.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:30:51 HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 19:30:54 -!- HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:31:08 HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 19:31:12 -!- mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:36:15 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.140.245] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:37:58 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 19:38:13 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.140.245] has joined #lisp 19:39:53 mega1 [n=mega@3e44bee1.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 19:40:00 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@www.netvisor.hu] has quit ["..."] 19:40:20 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.234.128] has joined #lisp 19:41:19 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 19:44:43 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:50 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 19:47:35 -!- paw` [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has left #lisp 19:47:47 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:53 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 19:51:06 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:55:50 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:55:58 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:59:37 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.140.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:01:57 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:02:39 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:44 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 20:05:58 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:08:20 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:49 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:09:01 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@90.184.205.169] has quit ["leaving"] 20:13:20 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:42 does anyone know how to define structs for CLX? specifically, I mean Xinerama ScreenInfo: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xcb/proto/tree/src/xinerama.xml 20:14:59 -!- sphex_ is now known as sphex 20:15:07 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:15:25 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 20:15:52 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:15:58 blitz_: I would have a look to how something such as a visual is encoded, or the response for querying for information about a window. 20:16:08 Umm... Or a font. 20:18:23 nyef: ok, thanks 20:19:00 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-105-101.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 20:19:19 ... I'm looking at the XML, and I'm wondering what the -hell- the bits are for. 20:19:29 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:41 nyef: to declare pad bytes in the wire protocol request or reply 20:19:48 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.140.245] has joined #lisp 20:20:12 Given that the subsequent fields are invariably 32 bits wide, I'd expect the padding to be a multiple of four bytes, as anything less would be covered by the alignment constraint. 20:20:39 I'm more interested by the fact that this 1.1 Xinerama protocol xml from 2006 does not correspond at all to the 1.2 Xinerama protocol document I found from 2002 at 20:21:18 nyef: the pad 1 byte lines puzzle me as well... 20:21:38 Krystof: that puzzles me too ;) 20:22:02 Krystof: Looks like the XineramaQueryVersion request is compatible, at least. Unless they changed the opcode. 20:22:11 Krystof: I am trying to find the C implementation 20:22:23 nyef: yeah :-) 20:22:50 -!- zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:24:20 Modius [n=Modius@99.179.99.246] has joined #lisp 20:24:26 anyway, you do define-accessor to define encoding and decoding from structures or classes to wire protocol 20:24:41 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-105-101.customers.d1-online.com] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 20:25:46 Judging just by the protocol encoding for the version query from the spec, it's there to skip over the "unused" octet in the first word of the response... Which isn't even adjascent to the rest of it. 20:26:14 Modius__ [n=Modius@99.179.99.246] has joined #lisp 20:27:07 Clearly, my spelling is worse than usual today. 20:30:05 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-230.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:30:14 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-230.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:31:02 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:31:53 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-230.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:31:53 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 20:32:09 Krystof: what is the proper way to parse the list of ScreenInfos returned by QueryScreens? the clx code is kind of messy... 20:32:14 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 20:32:31 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 20:32:40 -!- tessier [n=treed@unused-105-40-113.ixpres.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:33:21 as I say, define an accessor for screeninfo; then a sequence of screeninfo will be handled more or less automatically 20:33:42 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:57 krappie: get-visual-configs in glx.lisp seems to be a workable example. let's try that... 20:36:20 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:03 nyef: you're right, I have no idea what that "pad" stuff is 20:37:14 I have in the meantime established that my x server supports xinerama 1.1 20:38:04 I would also like to say that there is another WTF: why does QueryVersion take card8s as input and card16s in the reply? Makes no sense 20:38:27 -!- mrSpec [n=SomeOne@88.208.105.6] has quit ["G'night!"] 20:38:46 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:39:15 Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.99.246] has joined #lisp 20:39:24 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@193.52.24.125] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:43:48 -!- Modius [n=Modius@99.179.99.246] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:44:22 -!- quare [n=quare@70-41-152-236.cust.wildblue.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:44:42 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@99.179.99.246] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:50:31 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 20:54:06 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 20:58:18 BrandonWilson [n=a@216.71.225.62] has joined #lisp 20:58:26 Is lisp a gay programming language? 20:59:11 yes, very. 20:59:13 BrandonWilson: You mean, is it sexually attracted to other male programming languages? 20:59:30 BrandonWilson: or is it just fun using it? ;) 21:00:32 _is_ it a male programming language? 21:00:36 how does one tell? 21:00:53 does it have a penis? 21:00:55 rstandy: Noticed the little "p" after every predicate? 21:03:25 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:03:29 I believe someone did find that female programmers were far more likely to use C++ than males, but that's the only programming gender-related thing I can think of) 21:03:50 whether this implies that C++ is a male or female language, I would not like to say 21:03:54 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:04:39 rsynnott: but can a study be statistically significant? Are there enough female programmers for it to be meaningful? 21:05:12 What, C++ segfaults in "one of those days of the week"? 21:05:21 s/can/can such/ 21:05:30 Don't forget to account for application domain selection bias in the participants in the study. 21:05:45 dkcl: Month, dear. 21:06:20 (and it was done on British Computer Society members, so may only be a regional thing) 21:06:23 Jabberwockey: Oops, s/week/month 21:06:36 what an interesting discussion 21:06:38 Jabberwockey: Should've met my ex, though. 21:07:19 mind you, of the three female computer programmers I know personally, only one does C++; the other two write scheme compilers and use VB respectively) 21:07:45 rsynnott: Scheme compilers in VB? 21:08:16 dkcl: Might be plausible, if you needed a bootstrap environment. 21:08:26 no, two different people 21:08:34 one vb, one scheme compilers 21:08:46 Oh, right. 21:09:29 two should meet 21:10:20 -!- ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has quit ["sova"] 21:10:24 Another option might be to write a VB compiler in Scheme... 21:11:06 even microsoft never bothered to write a vb compiler, AFAIK 21:11:43 Easily enough checked, given a VB6 install. 21:11:48 (the 'compiler' for VB6 worked by tokenising the source, then packing it into an exe along with an interpretter and various life-support dlls) 21:11:49 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:13:07 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:30 are there any good rules of thumb for macro-to-function ratios? 21:13:40 i am confused. i set up my asdf-registry to point to sdl.asd and sdl-demos.asd, earlier today running the demos worked. now i'm trying and i get "cannot find one of 'sdlstub'" errors. any thoughts? this is on linux, sbcl. 21:13:44 *hefner* suddenly wonders what Turbo Basic's compiled used to do 21:13:58 So, anyone tried passing a 128-bit integer as an argument to an alien function on x86-64 recently? 21:14:15 chessguy: "use macros only if you can't to it with functions" 21:14:33 <_3b> dulouz: did anyone tell you to use lispbuilder-sdl instead of cl-sdl (if that is what you are using) yet? 21:14:39 nope 21:14:48 and yes, this is cl-sdl 21:14:51 chessguy: it also depends quite a bit on the domain you are programming in. 21:14:59 i'll go look for lispbuilder-sdl 21:15:01 that's fair 21:15:02 nyef: what's the data type for a 128-bit integer? long long long? :) 21:15:11 <_3b> dulouz: http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/wiki/LispbuilderSDL 21:15:22 hefner: wikipedia claims it was a real compiler 21:15:24 I don't know, but I expect that bits 32-63 will be zeroed in the call. 21:15:33 (to native code, at that!) 21:15:34 If you are in a domain that could benefit from its own syntatic abstractions, you'll use a lot of macros to provide those. 21:15:43 zen_balrog [n=johnnyc@69.150.85.11] has joined #lisp 21:15:52 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e44bee1.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:15:53 VB.NET uses a proper compiler, of course, but isn't really VB 21:15:57 In a domain that is close to the abstractions available already, you'll need fewer macros. 21:16:16 gigamonkey: hmm, what do you mean by that? 21:16:25 (sounds like an interesting idea) 21:16:28 *dkcl* facepalms. 21:16:45 rsynnott: oh, neat. That thing was awesome, at least until I learned Pascal. 21:17:19 I think Pascal (Turbo Pascal) was the first thing I ever really programmed in 21:18:26 chessguy: for instance, I wrote a library for parsing binary data. It bascally defines an embedded language that lets you concisely specify the binary format you want to be able to read and write. That was done largely with macros. 21:18:50 I'm fairly sure that Applesoft BASIC was the first thing I really programmed in. 21:19:01 The domain was parsing binary data. There are no syntactic abstractions built into CL for doing that, so I defined my own. 21:19:16 so the EDSL was basically implemented in macros? 21:19:21 Yes. 21:19:35 and then you used the implementation with functions 21:19:38 On the other hand, I have a simple program I use for tracking the family budget and it's got 160 DEFUNs and 5 DEFMACROs. 21:20:15 chessguy: yes. 21:20:21 milanj- [n=milan@93.87.166.57] has joined #lisp 21:20:47 i read somewhere that you could basically put parens around domain-specific code and then implement the DSL with macros. that sounds like what you're saying 21:20:52 Yes. 21:22:11 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-1.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 21:23:00 Hrm... Emulators. Nevermore: three macros. Perry: eleven macros, two macrolets, and two symbol-macrolets. Pretzil: one macro. 21:23:45 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:24:06 chessguy: have a look at: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/a827235ce7466a92 21:24:06 And CLXS has the hairiest macro system I've written thus far, and still isn't complete. But that actually -is- a case of trying to put parens around the spec. 21:24:49 And even in the case of my binary-data parser, it's 20 defuns and 5 defmacros. 21:24:58 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.99.246] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:25:18 Plus some defgenerics and defmethods. 21:25:37 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-1.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:26:06 _3b: thanks, lispbuilder-sdl is up and running now. 21:26:45 Mmm. For DSLs you can quite easily end up needing few macros with a lot of functions behind them. 21:27:15 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-250-153-251.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:33 nyef: Yes. 21:28:13 -!- cl-irc [n=cl-irc@c-68-46-6-17.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:28:41 I'm trying to think of a case where you'd really have a *lot* of macros. I guess you could implement a whole programming language with lots of "special forms" and that would require a lot of macros. 21:29:08 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:29:25 You get a few cases with layered macros. 21:30:06 You mean macros that expand into other macros? Yeah. 21:30:36 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:45 Right. Where the outer macro does some simple bookkeeping and the inner one does something more complex. 21:31:03 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:31:05 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151400.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:31:15 The outer one adding a function to a dispatch table and the inner one expanding to the actual function definition is a good one, for example. 21:31:24 How would you turn a list of characters into a string? 21:32:13 bgs100: COERCE, MAP, WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING combined with DOLIST and PRINC... Possibly a few other ways, why? 21:33:14 -!- holycow [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:33:25 map-into! 21:33:47 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.150.101.249] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:33:54 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-3305.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:34:42 Oh, what am I thinking. There's no real formatting constraint on the problem thus far, so I'd FORMAT NIL "~S" the list. You get a string out of that, after all... 21:35:02 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-130.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 21:36:28 nyef: tsk 21:36:45 also (make-array (length list) :element-type 'character :initial-contents list) 21:36:48 perhaps "~{~C~}" is more what bgs100 has in mind. 21:36:58 pjb: Shh! 21:37:20 Thanks pjb 21:38:53 But coerce or make-array is probably more efficient. 21:39:19 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:47 I think I know how to make x86oid alien integer return values truncate properly. 21:40:06 But it requires an extra alien-type method. 21:40:27 (Well, an extra alien-type method or an icky hack.) 21:40:58 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:41:00 -!- ironChicken [n=richard@mx.lurk.org] has quit ["Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5"] 21:41:28 Hrm. Or I can change the method signature for the :alien-rep method. That could also work. 21:42:06 ironChicken [n=richard@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 21:44:33 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6EF9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:25 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:21 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 21:46:29 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:49:07 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151400.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:49:57 paw` [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:52:41 Krystof: the X protocol is really weird... why do they use a CARD32 and interpret it as boolean instead of using the BOOL type? 21:54:59 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:56:23 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:50 -!- paw` [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:00:24 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:06:22 Is there something like xml-simple for ruby/perl that takes an xml tree and turns it into a simple data structure (in the form hash of hashes) for easy access of elements? 22:06:32 I mean, something like that for CL. 22:07:15 antoszka: sxml 22:07:19 minion: sxml? 22:07:20 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``sxml''. 22:07:37 antoszka: well, anyways it is on cliki, you can asdf-install it. 22:07:40 minion: s-xml 22:07:41 s-xml: S-XML is a simple basic XML parser with both a function and (S)SAX like event interface as well as a DOM interface with LXML, SXML and an XML-ELEMENT struct DOM representation. http://www.cliki.net/s-xml 22:08:02 Thanks. 22:08:21 antoszka: there's also xmls it might be simplier. 22:08:37 On cliki.net as well? 22:08:56 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:08:56 yeah 22:08:57 found it 22:09:05 I find cxml cxml-stp clear and simple to use. 22:09:40 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:16 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 22:12:10 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:15:09 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:16:41 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:26 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 22:19:08 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1D7C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:20:09 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:55 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:23:05 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:44 -!- luis` is now known as luis 22:25:56 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:27:04 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:27:25 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:51 Does anyone have a test case for x86oid alien integer return value truncation handy? 22:32:53 nyef: char foo (int x) { return x; } 22:33:01 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:33:18 + unsigned (: 22:33:28 I was honestly hoping for something I could dump into a REPL... Oh well, I'll cons something up. 22:33:58 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:34:30 you could just misdeclare a function that returns large ints, I guess. 22:34:36 nyef pasted "Completely untested (uncompiled) possible fix for alien result truncation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79612 22:34:52 rhencke [n=rhencke@adsl-71-143-181-49.dsl.ltrkar.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:13 in common lisp, nil, (), 'nil and '() are all equivalent, correct? 22:36:46 In an evaluation context, yes. 22:36:48 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:36:48 once evaluated, right. Otherwise nil == () and 'nil ~= '(). 22:36:49 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-149-243.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 22:36:54 ah, ok 22:37:04 Umm... What? 22:37:18 (equal 'nil '()) => T. 22:37:51 i was tinkering around and wondering why (defun foo () ) and (defun foo nil) were legal but (defun foo '()) and (defun foo 'nil) were not 22:37:59 nyef: that was an approximately equal, not != ;) 22:38:02 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6EF9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 22:38:02 Because arglists aren't evaluated. 22:38:05 Fair enough. 22:38:20 ok, thanks :) 22:38:40 *rhencke* is trying to work his way though practical common lisp. 22:39:13 it's a bit trippy coming from algol-style languages 22:40:10 appreciate the help, thanks :) 22:41:01 Hrm... (define-alien-callback truncation-test (integer 64) ((foo (integer 64))) foo), maybe? 22:42:24 Right, signed 64. 22:42:55 And then a few rounds of lying to the compiler in an alien-funcall scenario and I have a test suite. 22:44:28 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:57 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:54:37 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151400.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:55:14 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-202-230.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:55:39 -!- rhencke [n=rhencke@adsl-71-143-181-49.dsl.ltrkar.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 22:55:43 rhencke [n=rhencke@adsl-71-143-181-49.dsl.ltrkar.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:59 rhencke: if you have the category "algol-style languages" you're already ahead of the game, I'd think 22:57:12 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.234.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:00:01 kpreid: hopefully... thanks :) 23:00:20 is scheme algol-style? 23:00:43 i am digging macros in common lisp 23:03:07 loop hurts my brain though 23:03:39 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-253-1-115-198.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:04:55 -!- beach [n=user@82.125.234.202] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:05:01 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:07:10 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:07:21 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 23:13:20 i have still mostly ignored loop. but i'm only about 1 year into my lisp experiments 23:14:42 brandelune [n=suzume@pl479.nas932.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:14:54 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-135-129.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:25 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:15:26 you're missing out; loop is a swiss army knife 23:15:37 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:16:15 r00t_ [n=r00t@115.241.101.129] has joined #lisp 23:18:04 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:19:08 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@115.241.89.123] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:22:22 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [] 23:23:03 i think i used it once, and it was useful. but some of the crazy loop tricks i've left in a dark corner all alone. 23:26:35 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-250-153-251.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:36 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-220-184.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:32:06 -!- milanj- [n=milan@93.87.166.57] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:33:12 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:11 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 23:41:47 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087E92F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:43:04 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:47:37 -!- Astyan [n=mickael@megami.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:48:22 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-220-184.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:33 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student167-92.hampshire.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:49:44 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483A6BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:50:09 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:53:29 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.212.31] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:53:51 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.212.31] has joined #lisp 23:54:32 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.5.53.215] has quit ["Leaving"]