00:00:13 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 00:00:17 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-72-170.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 00:00:43 -!- benreesman [n=ben@asa01-ext.utc.backmo.com] has quit [] 00:00:51 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:01:02 -!- dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [] 00:01:39 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 00:02:11 -!- mhig [n=michael@94-194-177-13.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["leaving"] 00:03:24 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-72-170.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:05:21 -!- grumps [n=grumps@adsl-69-209-49-188.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has quit [] 00:06:59 -!- bkudria [n=bkudria@kudria.net] has quit ["ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"] 00:07:42 bkudria [n=bkudria@kudria.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:47 grumps [n=grumps@adsl-69-209-49-188.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:06 -!- aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:13:10 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 00:13:20 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 00:14:11 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C60D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:17:27 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:17:49 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:13 all right 00:19:06 so I just got confirmation that a friendly vps hosting company is going to sponsor a 512MB instance to serve as a boinkmarks build farm 00:21:27 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-156-98.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 00:21:37 this one will let me build a bunch of old sbcl and clisp binaries, probably set up a nice git-bisect bug search thing where you don't need to build all the binaries yourself, but can download them (gpg-signed, I think) from my machine. 00:22:29 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:17 you want to make old clisp binarys ? 00:23:22 geeez 00:25:51 http://paste.lisp.org/display/79497 .. i wonder if there's a better way to do stuff like this 00:26:20 mihg is gone i guess .. nvm. 00:27:52 .. the custom effective-slot-definition-class is only created for a single reason; the dispatch of s-v-u-c 00:28:03 lnostdal: this looks painful 00:28:38 (i know this is a dumb example, and i'd do a number of things differently ref. to what mihg originally asked about...) 00:28:47 yes, it is 00:28:57 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-b30d2a2f48e76d1f] has left #lisp 00:29:55 hum 00:30:03 what if he wanted to keep the original representation 00:31:02 -!- white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:31:06 as in using slot-value to read it 00:31:27 i would only modify the accessor for something like this 00:31:36 yeah, i don't know what he "really wanted" or if he had thought things through etc. 00:31:49 no i am saying for arguments sake 00:31:56 what would be a better way to do this 00:34:00 oh, i think it's possible to manipulate that stuff 00:34:07 hm 00:35:19 what's the usual behavior of the implementations regarding slot-names case awareness ? 00:36:15 mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 00:37:23 case insensitive ? 00:37:30 i think so 00:37:47 slot names are symbols 00:37:50 is it across all, i mean strings symbols etc ? 00:38:07 obviously not strings 00:38:22 nyef [n=nyef@24.220.182.229] has joined #lisp 00:38:24 yeah, that's non consistent somehow 00:38:25 Hello all. 00:38:26 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:38:48 eh ? you want strings to be case insensitive ? 00:38:59 you can treat them as such 00:39:21 yes with for example -modern for clisp, will behave case sensitive 00:40:10 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:46 but, even string name's for packages are varying that much, ext becomes sys::ext or sys:ext or some such 00:41:28 even nick names won't get recognized or treated consistently 00:41:31 i haven't had any issues 00:41:35 i had 00:41:40 i prefer to follow the standard on this 00:41:57 i escaped some making them to keywords actually 00:42:03 is there a modern mode for sbcl? 00:43:08 steel bank common lisp 00:44:06 I wouldn't expect there to be a modern mode for SBCL. 00:44:42 Ooh. New release? 00:44:49 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:45:12 lichtblau: are you really using that QGraphicsScene for something thing interesting? 00:46:55 theoffset [n=ismael@200-56-214-51-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has joined #lisp 00:50:13 I didn't realize Qt had something like that, although it seems to have everything and the kitchen sink 00:50:56 hefner: wait till they add the potty 00:51:01 heh 00:51:04 You mean ACL modern mode? With case sesitive strings. No, not in SBCL 00:51:23 SBCL is somewhat pedantic 00:52:00 antifuchs: neat. a lisp racetrack. 00:52:49 sepult: probably not clisp, actually 00:53:01 it's something i may consider if I have too much spare time some day 00:53:17 oh ok 00:53:37 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:53:38 antifuchs: the upstream seems not to be usable either 00:53:56 unsurprisingly enough, sbcl is the only lisp I know that has kept a mostly unified build process all across its lifetime 00:54:21 ./make.sh 'host-lisp argument argument...' # and you're done 00:54:24 antifuchs: what about cmucl, isn't that one close to sbcl ? 00:54:45 I don't have the guts to even think about how to build this. 00:54:51 Edi Weitz wrote a module 'flexistreams' for use with hunchenttoot :sepult 00:55:17 but with clisp, ecl (which build from gcc), it's been "read some INSTALL file somewhere and hope for the best 00:55:48 younder: that's for treating stings and streams uniformly ? 00:55:57 saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 00:56:02 younder: but only for the web environment ? 00:56:05 sepult: it isn't. 00:56:41 No, it isn't web spesific 00:56:43 it's something that lets you output text to a binary stream, with a suitable encoding. 00:56:49 aah 00:57:06 antifuchs, what do you mean by "a mostly unified build process"? 00:57:56 deepfire: I mean one command (or a series of commands) that can be executed for every revision (with minimal changes across all revisions) that will reliably produce a working executable and core 00:58:30 clisp changed theirs 3 times in the (I think) 6 months I was trying to have it in autobench 00:58:45 then I just lost the motivation to keep up, and removed it from the autobuilder. 00:59:20 antifuchs, ECL is fairly stable in its ./configure && make all install habit, afaics.. 00:59:51 While we're discussing SBCL builds, what do you all think about having paste 79210 annotations 1 through 3 committed for the 1.0.29 release cycle? 00:59:57 minion: paste 79210? 00:59:58 Paste number 79210: "An SBCL build-system hack" by nyef in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/79210 01:00:04 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 01:00:06 there was a phase where it varied wildly, somewhere in the middle I think, and then I got clisp flashbacks ((: 01:00:25 Well, it's different when you want to build with MSVC, but that's something entirely separate anyway. 01:00:41 nyef: as long as the sbcl binary is in src/runtime/ and the sbcl.core is in output/, I'm happy ((: 01:00:54 dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:55 Edi Weitz has documented it, why don't you see for yourself :sepult 01:01:29 antifuchs: Yeah, this doesn't affect that part of the build. It's mostly just getting rid of symlinks. 01:02:20 If I'm awake and thinking about it early enough tomorrow, I'll probably ask again to get a different audience. 01:02:36 nyef: does your patch affect .gitignore? 01:02:41 (that's in CVS, oddly ((-:) 01:02:58 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-68-142-74.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:03:03 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-68-142-74.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:03:36 if it doesn't, it should: src/*/target* are ignored; your new things don't seem to be. 01:03:52 pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:00 younder: i'll have a look as soon as possible, and thank you for the advice :) 01:04:29 nyef: If you use clbuild it all get's converted to darcs (sort of) 01:04:36 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 01:05:02 antifuchs: What new things? 01:05:05 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:06 -!- mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:05:19 obj/, no? 01:05:26 ah, not src/*/*target* 01:06:03 hmm, ECL building with MSVC is fairly standard as well 01:06:06 antifuchs: Right. Anything different is in obj/, not src/, other than FEWER SYMLINKS. 01:06:26 cd, edit Makefile, nmake, done 01:06:57 p_l: haha, edit makefile? (: 01:08:10 antifuchs: yes, the old, good way - change few options at the top of makefile, like "THREADS=NO" to "THREADS=YES" or similar, I don't have a copy with me at the moment 01:08:31 About the only thing I can think of that I'd like to change with this patchset is that /target/ is the wrong name for the path segment that gets replaced. It's architecture-specific, not stuff-that-doesn't-get-built-for-the-host. 01:08:41 p_l: I dunno, I rather like that my build scripts don't have to fire up a text editor (even if it's just sed) to build sbcl 01:08:58 p_l: the point is: I want to build lots of revisions, automatically 01:09:10 antifuchs: Well, last time I built sbcl, I was editing features file myself... 01:09:39 having to navigate a file that can contain arbitrary text is fine for a human, but doesn't work as well for a machine IME 01:09:45 the whole "two problems" approach 01:09:56 p_l: you created the target-features file; that's easy 01:10:04 changing values here and there: no. 01:10:29 antifuchs: AFAIK you can do that on commandline as well, I was just too lazy to check nmake help 01:11:03 yeah, if it has changed for the better (I lost motivation after the first change), I'll give it another shot 01:11:41 it's just: if you think about making a lisp implementation: keep the building interface as stable and as idiot-proof as possible. please. (-: 01:12:42 well, I found ECL to be quite idiot proof, assuming you are using a version that builds correctly at all :P 01:13:19 that, too ((: 01:13:40 compiling something from scratch on windows isn't that common, and ECL has actually been one of the easiest things to built there... 01:13:54 *nyef* remebers one of his hacks which had, as one of the build steps, "sbcl < make-stuff.happen.lisp", which tended to produce a core image file that then needed to be copied to the right place. 01:14:00 Well, *releases* always worked. It's just that sometimes you get impatient 01:15:00 slhdn [n=selahadd@85.98.150.116] has joined #lisp 01:19:15 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:21:30 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:21:42 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:41 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:24:51 Ah. And I think I screwed up the duplicate-stem check. 01:26:16 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:28 If it checked for duplication based on the object file name, it'd feel less hacky. 01:32:17 -!- slhdn [n=selahadd@85.98.150.116] has left #lisp 01:32:42 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151400.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:34:01 Why is that GRAFT doesn't have a mirror slot accessor function? 01:35:09 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.115.154] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:35:18 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:27 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:36:01 antifuchs, well, we're talking about building with _MSVC_ -- the microsoft compiler. No configure sweetness in that corner of hell.. 01:36:10 deech: aren't grafts always mirrored? 01:36:34 deepfire, rather. xchat's completion is hopelessly stupid. 01:36:50 hefner, well, I'd like a reader at least :-) 01:37:08 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:36 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:38:00 wouldn't it return the object itself? 01:38:55 Aren't grafts sheets? 01:39:12 I mean, sheets "have" mirrors.. 01:39:30 also, ./configure isn't that nice (though I'm starting to find configures that don't use defaults so much! Miracle!) 01:40:53 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:41:00 vinleod [n=vince@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:48 I always found it astonishing how a very simple program has to check for every variety of compiler for a langauge it's not written in 01:43:53 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 01:44:12 buggarag` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-74-9.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:44:43 deepfire: let's try this again. a graft is a sheet. sheet-mirror retrieves a sheet's mirror. therefore, sheet-mirror retrieve's a graft's mirror. what more could you possibly want? 01:45:18 sure, the graft as a slot named "mirror" with no accessor, but I don't see why you'd need to go digging in it. 01:46:13 it's just CLOS 01:47:16 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 01:48:35 -!- azanar_ [n=edcarrel@edm1a.mavericklabel.com] has quit [] 01:49:16 sepult_ [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-9.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:49:40 hefner, well, I thought I'd access it directly, when I know I operate on a graft. 01:49:50 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-72-170.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:50:00 -!- buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-72-170.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:50:11 *hefner* wonders when you operate on a graft 01:50:35 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:50:45 -!- sepult_ is now known as sepult 01:51:12 Suddenly I feel guilty. 01:51:15 -!- sepult is now known as Guest99926 01:51:23 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 01:51:54 I'm trying to figure out the philosophical difference between the top level sheet and the graft. 01:53:06 There are situations when you don't control the whole screen, so "graftness" isn't really genuine. 01:53:40 Or is the property of never being unmirrored enough? 01:54:26 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2DCBF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:54:30 no, because in mcclim everything is mirrored 01:55:14 ... No lightweight widgetry, every gadget has a corresponding window? 01:55:30 Seems like that. 01:55:44 yeah, very 1990s design 01:55:53 -!- Guest99926 [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-9.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:56:00 CLIM doesn't require that, it's just how mcclim is implemented 01:56:00 Invalid index 0: must be between 0 and -1. 01:56:00 -!- grumps [n=grumps@adsl-69-209-49-188.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has quit [] 01:56:10 good thing matrix12 isn't here 01:57:05 You know, it almost seems that something could be done about that... 01:57:17 (The bot response, I mean.) 01:58:08 anyway, a top level sheet is tied directly to one application frame, while the graft is associated with a port. there's some wiggle room in how to implement this, but I *think* mcclim does one graft per port. 01:58:10 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-9.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:58:28 think of the graft as a proxy for the root window, perhaps 01:59:08 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:59:17 -!- dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [] 01:59:42 danlei [n=user@pD9E2FD07.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:14 e.g. (bounding-rectangle* (sheet-region (graft sheet))) => 0,0,1920,1200 02:00:17 vande [n=sdfpme@119.128.108.245] has joined #lisp 02:00:23 dj` [n=user@76-10-146-176.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:00:47 Ooh. I -wish- I had that kind of display resolution. 02:02:57 <_3b> it still isn't enough :/ 02:03:03 hefner, if the upper layers are going to ask only such trivial things, it might be manageable. 02:03:16 deepfire: what are you working on? 02:03:39 (if it's a secret, that's okay. I never announce things before they're near finished, given that I never finish most of them ;)) 02:03:54 nyef: you want 5300x1600? 02:04:03 so the trivial-gray-streams are just the lighter version of it, for compatibility with other implementations which don't have'em 02:04:35 hefner, if you don't fail 90% of time you're not aiming high enough? 02:05:20 p_l: That's a... wierd resolution. Two monitors? 02:06:00 nyef: two 2650x1600 side by side. Seen once in mac shop, back when macs were cool ppc64 02:06:18 p_l: I hope they had them standing upright 02:06:22 <_3b> 2 sounds annoying, i'd rather have 3 to avoid th eline down the middle or asymmetry :) 02:06:49 my favourite combination included I think 4 or 5 monitors and projector 02:07:06 *nyef* has this sudden mental image of Moses walking down the mountain carrying two 2650x1600 flatscreen monitors in portrait mode... 02:07:55 hefner: and no, they weren't in portrait. mac shop. graphic guys being targeted and bling-seekers. Not coders 02:08:25 who understands those mac guys. 02:08:26 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 02:08:48 <_3b> i'd rather have wide monitor than tall anyway, 100 lines is plenty, i just want more windows open at once 02:09:18 hefner: Well, I've met an understandable one. The weird thing is, that he came to me to ask about linux... 02:09:45 oh, and the guy allowed me to test if my laptop can control one of their 30" displays :) 02:09:46 hefner: well I worked with those mac guys when working for Opera 02:10:51 all Krauts (germans) 02:11:05 -!- deliana [n=deliana@ABordeaux-158-1-117-18.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:11:21 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.148] has joined #lisp 02:11:41 -!- saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has quit [] 02:15:33 -!- holycow [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:15:53 -!- vinleod [n=vince@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:16:48 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:16:49 Hmm, sheet-region's documentation is somewhat obscure. 02:17:13 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:42 coffeemug [n=coffeemu@ool-457219b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:02 I wish display DPIs would increase, so you could cut corners on text rendering. 02:19:27 <_3b> yeah, would be good for rendering in general, not just text 02:19:31 nullwork [n=nullwork@24.245.23.122] has joined #lisp 02:19:50 How does CLX correlate between its graft's mirror (which isn't apparently registered with port-lookup-mirror's hashtable) and graft's sheet-region? 02:20:06 It would be nice just to render large glyphs to a texture and left filtering/mipmapping do its magic at all (lesser) point sizes, but it just looks horrible for small text. 02:20:18 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.148] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:21:11 gray-streams accused of being too clumsy ??? by franz ?? 02:21:14 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:21:15 wth 02:21:22 hefner: unfortunately software doesn't want to cooperate 02:21:45 -!- nullwork [n=nullwork@24.245.23.122] has quit [Client Quit] 02:21:56 nullwork [n=nullwork@24.245.23.122] has joined #lisp 02:22:16 The funny thing is that unlike Windows, X11 had DPI-independent font sizing afaik... till Xft2 02:24:29 mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 02:27:10 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:27:52 -!- mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:30:57 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 02:31:00 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.148] has joined #lisp 02:32:57 Oh, I actually see, MAKE-GRAFT does that. I'm a little blind. 02:33:01 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:14 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.148] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:33:14 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:40:49 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-319a340cb3822ff9] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:41:31 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:58 -!- dj` [n=user@76-10-146-176.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:46:54 mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has joined #lisp 02:46:54 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:49:51 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:53:19 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:56:25 -!- nyef [n=nyef@24.220.182.229] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:00:07 -!- Zaratoustras [n=user@78.33.52.101] has quit [Client Quit] 03:01:09 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:03:12 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 03:04:02 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:43 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:06:01 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:06:05 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:08:01 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:10:34 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:11:19 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:38 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:37 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:18:26 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:04 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-231-13.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 03:20:07 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-231-13.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 03:20:10 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["I'm off!"] 03:20:22 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-231-13.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 03:21:20 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:47 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:30:45 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:47 Pegazus [n=awefawe@host38.201-253-182.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 03:32:46 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:33:11 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:15 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:30 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:40:24 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@216.165.144.151] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:41:04 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:46:38 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:46:42 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:52 Interesting how "frame-panes" can be a misleading name. 03:51:34 clim frame-panes 03:51:34 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/28-3.html#_1504 03:52:00 yeah, that's retarded 03:52:39 am I just imagining it, or did middle clicking in the scroll bar at some time in the past do the same thing that it does in every other UI? 03:53:03 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:57:40 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:57:41 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:58:00 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:19 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:55 laurent-atl [n=user@adsl-074-244-110-170.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:00 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 04:05:08 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-69-221.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:10:39 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:13:19 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 04:13:43 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:00 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:14:23 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:17 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:15:39 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:47 jme_009 [n=oke@bas2-ottawa23-1128665897.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:15:51 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:16:15 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:19 ?DCC SEND "ff???f?" 0 0 0 04:16:19 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:16:20 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:16:20 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:16:20 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:16:20 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:16:20 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:16:41 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:16:43 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:43 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:43 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:50 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:16:54 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:03 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 04:17:04 ?DCC SEND "ff???f?" 0 0 0 04:17:04 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:17:04 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:17:04 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:17:04 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:17:05 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:17:11 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:17 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:17:19 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:51 ?DCC SEND "ff???f?" 0 0 0 04:17:51 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:17:51 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:17:51 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:17:56 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:05 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:18:09 -!- jbmigel [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:18:13 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 04:18:15 wlr [n=walt@65.96.92.150] has joined #lisp 04:18:16 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:34 racecar56_ [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:55 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:01 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:19:23 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:27 -!- racecar56_ [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:20:01 jbmigel [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:02 ?DCC SEND "ff???f?" 0 0 0 04:21:03 -!- wlr [n=walt@65.96.92.150] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:21:03 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:21:03 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:21:03 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:21:03 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:21:17 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:21:18 -!- jme_009 [n=oke@bas2-ottawa23-1128665897.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [K-lined] 04:21:23 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151400.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:21:27 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:27 wlr [n=walt@65.96.92.150] has joined #lisp 04:21:43 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:43 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-8-114.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:21:48 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 04:22:03 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:22:07 jme [n=oke@bas2-ottawa23-1167852518.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:22:12 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 04:23:10 ?DCC SEND "ff???f?" 0 0 0 04:23:10 -!- wlr [n=walt@65.96.92.150] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:23:10 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:23:10 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:23:10 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:23:11 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 04:23:22 what's going on? 04:23:29 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:23:30 exploits 04:23:31 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:35 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:41 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 04:23:54 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:58 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-13-192.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:24:09 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:24:22 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:50 ?DCC SEND "ff???f?" 0 0 0 04:25:50 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:25:50 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:25:51 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:25:51 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:25:51 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:26:05 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:26:10 any ops here? 04:26:15 wlr [n=walt@65.96.92.150] has joined #lisp 04:26:15 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:24 ramus` exploits are offtopic to freenode. Please read the policy 04:26:31 BrianRice [n=water@98.225.51.246] has joined #lisp 04:26:41 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 04:26:48 ?DCC SEND "ff???f?" 0 0 0 04:26:48 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:26:48 -!- wlr [n=walt@65.96.92.150] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:26:48 -!- BrianRice [n=water@98.225.51.246] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:26:48 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:26:49 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:26:50 This is getting interesting. 04:27:05 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:27:05 this is getting annoying 04:27:07 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:10 That, too. 04:27:11 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:24 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 04:27:25 jme: I can see something more 'offtopic' here, though. :) 04:27:31 BrianRice [n=water@98.225.51.246] has joined #lisp 04:27:53 jme: don't do this anymore, ok? 04:28:22 chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:00 alright one more time before i hit the road 04:29:01 ?DCC SEND "ff???f?" 0 0 0 04:29:01 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:29:01 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:29:01 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:29:01 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:29:01 -!- BrianRice [n=water@98.225.51.246] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 04:29:01 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:29:08 k bye 04:29:11 -!- jme [n=oke@bas2-ottawa23-1167852518.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 04:29:15 chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:17 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:29:17 ? 04:29:18 oh god 04:29:24 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:27 wlr [n=walt@65.96.92.150] has joined #lisp 04:29:43 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:50 A self-kicking troll! 04:29:59 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 04:30:51 I wonder when people are going to get bored of that silly "exploit" 04:31:07 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:31:23 when they grow up 04:31:25 chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:20 stassats: there is such a thing? 04:33:45 yeah "death" 04:34:08 oh, right. After talking too much with other transhumanism-oriented people I tend to forget that one ;-) 04:34:39 you should watch the new kurzweil movie 04:34:55 *stassats* found root of abcl's problem 04:35:01 xristos: the one based on the book "singularity is now"? 04:35:38 http://singularityhub.com/2009/04/29/transcendent-man-wows-at-tribeca-film-festival-premier/ 04:35:49 *p_l* might finally go to cinema after long time, then 04:37:49 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:53 *rullie* goes to cinema almost weekly :) 04:39:41 going weekly would rob me of food money. Also, I stopped checking what is on :D 04:39:45 *stassats* too 04:39:53 cinema: imdb->piratebay 04:41:14 xristos: where can i download big screen, loud sound and disturbing neighbours? 04:41:45 hmm... for me there's no cinema, and instead of tv it's ->->-> 04:42:05 stassats: get a projector 04:42:29 and big speakers. And play outside the building in a city 04:42:29 though, i watch more pirated movies than in cinema 04:42:30 i highly recommend panasonic hd ones 04:42:46 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-46-58.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:58 stassats: you go on high seas and rob the ships of movies? 04:43:16 p_l: yeah, exactly 04:43:48 I guess it beats "download over internet" in terms of excitement... 04:43:54 -!- huangjs [n=huangjs@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:44:26 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068149037.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:28 Arrr. 04:46:06 -!- jbmigel [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:47:01 i figured since i'm downloading pretty much everything else, i should at least pay for movies 04:48:18 hah. If I consider something very good, have the money and there's a release (especially a polish one or translation in case it was a non polish/english book), I try to buy as much as I can. Kinda hard on the requirements, though :) 04:49:09 well, we're just being healthy consumers 04:50:09 i don't watch good movies in cinema, because they show them translated 04:50:38 the funny thing is, some of the local releases that I bought were done in cooperation with people who released them on the internet, due to their experience in translating :) 04:52:35 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:53:24 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 04:53:43 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:04:23 -!- mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:04:53 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:06:03 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:06:32 -!- vande [n=sdfpme@119.128.108.245] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:07:06 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 05:10:44 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 05:14:25 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068149037.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:17:24 -!- deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:17:51 deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:18:04 antgreen [n=Anthony@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:19:44 vande [n=sdfpme@119.128.108.245] has joined #lisp 05:21:59 antgree1 [n=Anthony@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:23:24 p0a [n=user@athedsl-373057.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 05:24:06 Hello this is my source code, http://paste.lisp.org/display/79502 05:24:50 (map0-n #'identity 3) ==> (0 1 2 3) is the specification 05:25:13 however, this behaves oddly, at least to me, because it starts from 1 instead of 0. The temporary fix was to change 0 to -1, but I'd like to know why this happends 05:25:41 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:25:48 happens* 05:26:10 Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.53.227] has joined #lisp 05:26:21 -!- antgreen [n=Anthony@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:27:25 <_3b> you use up the 0 when you initialize result to nil 05:28:12 ah :-) thanks 05:29:26 well then the -1 solution seems elegant 05:30:43 <_3b> yeah, that or use DO instead of DO* and change the end test to > 05:31:20 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:31:37 <_3b> or just (loop for i to n collect (funcall f i)) :) 05:32:39 _3b: I was aware of the loop solution but I like to stay away from loop for now 05:32:42 pg doesn't like loop 05:32:55 <_3b> pg doesn't like long identifiers either :) 05:32:58 I rewrote it using do as you suggested, it's better than the do* solution 05:33:07 pg doesn't like a lot of things 05:33:24 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 05:33:30 well, long identifiers can be annoying sometimes (Java can teach you that...) 05:33:50 <_3b> java seems to be able to corrupt any good idea :p 05:34:17 long identifiers are fine as long as they're hidden to the user 05:34:35 _3b: Well, lisp-style identifiers which I can type like l-p-t are good :D 05:34:39 Krystof: any hints on bootstrapping with CLISP? 05:35:26 _3b: Java.LongAssName.ThatShouldDie.TogetherWithCamelcase is goddamn awful. Thank Sun for Netbeans, it makes it somehow survivable... 05:35:36 Krystof: just released SBCL fails on NetBSD, is there any useful info I can provide you? 05:36:28 <_3b> p0a: there is also dotimes if you don't like loop 05:38:25 _3b: Then it becomes (dotimes (1+ n) (funcall f n)), I think I like that most 05:38:59 No -- sorry, there must be accumulation performed too, so it's an extra let/push 05:39:24 <_3b> right, still no longer than the DO version though, and uses simpler constructs 05:40:17 <_3b> (or you could use an &aux var, but those are out of fashion these days :) 05:40:47 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:43:32 &aux seems useful -- why is it out of fashion? 05:44:04 ASau: clisp version, compilation log (or if you can work out what has caused the build to break, an excerpt) 05:44:07 It shortens a lot of functions that start with 'let' 05:48:34 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 05:48:55 Perhaps the fashion is outdated? 05:49:17 fashions are pointless, this has a point 05:52:26 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Client Quit] 05:53:45 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 05:54:54 long lambda lists are already awkward without folding a bunch of &aux variables into them 05:55:43 Krystof: send it to you or to list? 05:55:49 so for aesthetical reasons... I see 05:58:22 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:02:32 -!- vande [n=sdfpme@119.128.108.245] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:05:37 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 06:05:47 Hi. 06:05:56 ECL fails to compile. "Rhaa" 06:06:18 fails to compile what? 06:07:14 itself :) 06:07:26 Axioplase: Let me guess, you pulled stuff from CVS? 06:07:40 no. From sf.net homepage. 06:07:45 9.4.0 06:07:54 Axioplase: 9.4.0 or 9.4.1? 06:07:59 and what architecture? 06:08:17 (because the one in the FreeBSD ports seemed older "0.9l" or something like that) 06:08:24 9.4.0, i386 06:09:06 could you paste the error message, your OS version and C compiler info? 06:09:18 (into lisppaste of course) 06:09:41 (yes. I'm relauching the compilation to get the exact error) 06:10:08 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 06:10:16 also, You might want to try 9.4.1, the fact that it appeared so fast might mean something :) 06:14:45 Axioplase pasted "ECL compilation error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79504 06:15:03 ehu`_ [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 06:17:35 *p_l* thanks god gcc didn't have localisation and that the locale set was japanese, not some other lang... 06:18:14 :) 06:19:45 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-152-140.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:13 Axioplase: Have tried building outside ports system? with 9.4.1? You can also try compiling without threading, it looks like something happened with it... 06:20:21 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:20:57 I'm trying 9.4.1 06:21:20 (and 9.4.0 is not in the ports. I just hacked the port to make it build it) 06:21:36 *p_l* wonders if there's any coincidence that he got error messages with japanese locale just when he was listening to some japanese stuff... 06:22:45 p_l: kashiwa daisuke? 06:24:39 p0a: As in  ? 06:25:09 *p_l* tries to learn japanese, but his skills are basic at best 06:25:28 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:25:39 "daisuki"? 06:25:59 hi Axioplase 06:26:39 *p_l* parsed that sentence as malformed, casual "you love the lyrics of the song?" :) 06:27:24 p_l:  06:27:40 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:27:45 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 06:28:01 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:29:41 ... your speech does not compute. At least not on my level and with my dictionary :D 06:30:14 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:37 the second and third kanji form name "daisuke" afaik, but I get lost farther 06:31:42 ok, I got that as a name, but it's not one I know :) 06:33:01 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:33:24 ecl *nearly* made it! cp: /tmp/ecl-9.4.1/src/gc/include/gc_{mark,inline}.h: No such file or directory 06:33:38 hurrra :D 06:33:49 in the installation process 06:33:53 vande [n=sdfpme@119.128.108.245] has joined #lisp 06:34:01 Axioplase: After compiling? 06:35:00 Axioplase: perhaps you're supposed to choose between gc_mark.h and gc_inline.h? 06:36:29 p0a: nope, first is for Mark-Sweep part I guess, second is for the inlined allocation/deallocation routines 06:36:30 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 06:37:05 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 06:37:24 Argh, my screen (or irssi) crashed. 06:37:36 Axioplase: Are you compiling with built-in GC or system-installed Boehm GC? 06:37:38 ECL gave this error at the end of compilation 06:37:48 I enabled boehm 06:38:39 p_l: Ah I see. I don't know much about GCs except what their task is. 06:38:49 hmmm 06:40:28 any way to get memory use stats from within a lisp without parsing the output of ROOM? it would be nice if sbcl could give me a callback when a certain memory threshold is reached, etc. 06:41:29 -!- vande is now known as liyoubing 06:42:16 -!- liyoubing is now known as vande 06:43:07 also if there are established ways to access getrlimit/setrlimit/getrusage, etc. 06:44:06 good morning 06:44:10 Axioplase: is that in install phase? 06:44:42 hey kami- 06:47:15 p_l: no. 06:47:39 or it did it without telling me 06:47:41 Yay! Now I have a partner for my startup! 06:47:56 konr: What startup? 06:48:25 p_l: we will build software to work with the financial market... at least that's our initial idea 06:48:30 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-136-182.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 06:49:44 konr: good luck :) 06:49:45 konr: welcome to club, now bleed! 06:49:56 ... have death marches! 06:49:59 thanks :) 06:50:09 and usual pain of work ;-) 06:50:34 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [] 06:50:49 what are you doing, fusss? 06:51:01 startup(n): all the pain of three full time jobs, with all the financial benefit of unemployment. 06:51:28 hahaha 06:51:55 konr: just delivery highly targeted advertising for the middle-eastern market, not much, and also going insane on the side. 06:52:13 Hah! At least I lucked out on insurance here! I've got National Insurance Number without working at all! :P 06:52:42 in theory it should mean I've got access to national healthcare system here... with swine flu I might actually need to use it :D 06:53:04 -!- theoffset [n=ismael@200-56-214-51-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:53:26 -!- ehu`_ [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:54:21 -!- droogie [n=user@88.238.43.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:54:24 ASau: to the list, unless it's a huge thing and you have no idea 06:54:37 droogie [n=user@88.238.43.26] has joined #lisp 06:55:00 Alright. 06:55:29 Axioplase annotated #79504 " ECL still errors " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79504#1 06:55:31 Krystof: would you know of the top of your head if an FFI to getrusage would give me a per-sbcl-thread info or for the whole process? 06:56:16 Axioplase: have you checked whether those two files exist? 06:56:22 fusss: the man page knows 06:56:48 ltriant_ [n=luket@eth4350.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:23 lichtblau: i thought i would cheat. the interwebs is full of LinuxThreads and pre NPTL stuff. 06:57:35 p_l: no 06:57:59 fusss: the definition says only about processes. Dunno if Linux added some special semantics (POSIX definition is thread-unaware) 06:58:18 p_l: now yes. And they do. 06:58:38 | RUSAGE_THREAD (since Linux 2.6.26) Return resource usage statistics for the calling thread. 06:58:49 (no, I haven't tried it myself. but that seems clear enough) 06:58:50 can you copy them manually to /tmp/ecl-9.4.1/build/ecl/gc/ ? 06:58:53 fusss, (sb-kernel:dynamic-usage) is the first number printed by room 06:59:11 ilitirit: CHEERS! 06:59:45 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has joined #lisp 07:00:10 IT'S 08:00! shops open! I can finally go buy my sugar for my tea! AFK :D 07:00:21 Axioplase, hi and why are you going through this pain festival 07:00:29 why not use the linux version of ecl 07:00:40 with freebsd binary compat 07:00:49 ilitirit: good question 07:00:57 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:02:14 lichtblau: i keep forgetting that posix API can be extended by the vendor. i should have looked at the linux getrusage(2) instead of the posix (APUE rather) 07:02:49 we are all slaves to SBCL 07:03:38 fusss: Anything not specified by IEEE-1003.1 in your manual is an extension 07:04:25 IEEE-1003.1 is a vendor extension on its own, on top of ISO 9899:1999 07:06:02 -!- xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:06:10 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:06:18 (and the same is true for Cltl1 and clhs) 07:06:22 I must go, bye 07:06:23 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-373057.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 07:07:42 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.171.31] has joined #lisp 07:07:56 ltriant__ [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:08:30 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:36 -!- ltriant [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:12:58 -!- ltriant_ [n=luket@eth4350.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:15:12 drafael1 [n=tapio@118.90.129.111] has joined #lisp 07:16:32 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 07:18:05 http://www.stumbleupon.com/toolbar/#topic=Rock music&url=http%253A%252F%252Fwww.youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253DtoHlMD50eYY 07:19:13  07:21:20 -!- drafael1 [n=tapio@118.90.129.111] has quit [Client Quit] 07:21:28 drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-111.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:23:06 "The structure definition shown at the start of this page was taken from 4.3BSD Reno. Not all fields are meaningful under Linux." -- linux manpage for getrusage(2) :-D 07:24:36 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-46-58.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:29:10 at least there's decription of which fields are used... 07:29:34 *p_l* got his sugar and some ready drinks :3 07:32:07 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-96.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:32:33 fusss, how about /proc/self/statm 07:33:12 -!- ltriant__ [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:33:44 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.71.28] has joined #lisp 07:33:52 ilitirit: I guess it would have the problem of being not exactly portable :) 07:33:54 yes, i know of that one. my immediate needs were answered by sb-kernel:dynamic-size, the others are just the icing and further back in the todo list. thanks. 07:34:16 p_l: i'm long past feigning portability ;-) 07:35:05 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:35:50 "Thick as a brick" indeed 07:37:59 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:38:08 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 07:39:51 The atoms of Common Lisp are the 26 operators 07:40:18 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:41:21 On these the rest of the system is buildt. see "Lisp in small Pieces" by Quinnbeck 07:42:43 -!- DrForr [n=drforr@eldwist.darkuncle.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:42:43 -!- qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:42:43 -!- Dazhbog [n=sampo@geek.fi] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:42:50 3/act 07:43:25 qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 07:43:25 Dazhbog [n=sampo@geek.fi] has joined #lisp 07:43:25 DrForr [n=drforr@eldwist.darkuncle.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:57 I have a format control string which is getting very long and contains many ~As. Is there a way of referring to the args of format by name? 07:44:11 younder: who are you talking to? 07:44:25 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:44:55 You can split a format string. 07:45:08 kami- 07:45:11 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:45:45 younder: you mean by creative use of (format nil ..)? 07:45:50 For one a ~ can be used to end the line 07:45:59 younder: yes, this is one solution. thanks. I thought there would be another possibility. 07:46:07 sykopomp: that works too 07:46:47 how about ditching format -- http://www.weitz.de/cl-interpol/ 07:47:05 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:56 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 07:48:02 ilitirit: thank you. this is what I need. 07:48:36 i remember there being a recent bug in ROOM 07:48:41 it is? 07:49:56 May I ask people to update to Slime HEAD? I need people who test the robustness of the new font-lock extension. 07:50:24 If after update, your emacs goes havoc (i.e. is stuck in an infinite loop) please report me. 07:50:35 :-D 07:50:35 report you to whom? 07:51:07 one of the 100 or so Slime developers? 07:51:13 so it's "report to me" but "tell me"? 07:51:40 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.71.28] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:52:01 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.71.28] has joined #lisp 07:52:58 younder: how many are active developers vs people who got something working to scratch an itch and shared it? 07:53:29 about 40 since you ask 07:53:47 that's a lot of developers 07:54:00 no wonder slime's so great :) 07:54:34 actually it's the reason why its code is not so great 07:55:21 tcr, just out of curiousity do you know why emacs uses CPU so heavily when reading output from swank? 07:55:37 ilitirit: because emacs is a slow elisp-based cow? 07:55:40 (just a guess) 07:55:53 a conspiracy to make printf debugging impossible 07:56:08 rlol 07:56:23 it actually make trace debugging rather a pita 07:56:42 tcr, i have a syntax highlighting bug with the new code, just a moment 07:56:50 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:57:44 ilitirit: No I don't know. I know there has been a slowdown for lots of output due to some recent change the way buffering is done. I did not do the change, and I'll not touch it. You should post to the mailing list. 07:58:28 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:58:32 morning 07:58:32 it was already too slow 07:58:49 -!- coffeemug [n=coffeemu@ool-457219b3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:59:03 -!- Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.53.227] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:59:07 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:00:04 it would be pretty neat if xristos' ogl ide actually sees the light of day -- I doubt I'd be switching to it, but I've wanted to play around with something impromptu-like on CL since I first saw those vids :) 08:00:09 -!- dys`` is now known as dys 08:00:29 hefner: Try with swank:*use-dedicated-output-stream* being t 08:00:54 and then perhaps *dedicated-output-stream-buffering* to :line or even :none 08:01:10 ilitirit: (same goes for you) 08:02:12 it would be cool if we could get an expressive opengl ui tookit for lisp in general 08:02:13 tcr, sorry i can't reproduce the font-mix-up (related to being halfway through the upgrade?), ignore it 08:02:46 ilitirit: what kind of font mix up? 08:02:52 manic12: would be cool if we could get some applications to justify the infrastructure 08:03:07 hefner: i'm working on one 08:03:43 hefner: applications are unnecessary. 08:03:51 infrastructure is all we need, for infrastructure's sake. 08:03:52 -!- vande [n=sdfpme@119.128.108.245] has quit ["leaving"] 08:04:03 plus, with more infrastructure, we can build more, better infrastructures. 08:04:06 mmmm 08:04:08 sykopomp: not practical 08:04:11 tcr, there was a "string" in a disabled #+reader that changed the rest of the #+reader to normal font, but that hasn't happened when I reopened the file 08:04:23 manic12: but oh-so-fun 08:04:31 hefner, are you familiar with HI ? 08:04:57 sykopomp: I believe I've said before in this channel something like "with sufficiently advanced technology, applications are unnecessary." 08:05:16 ilitirit: Hm conditionalized strings... yes that could make problems. Let me play with that. 08:05:25 i like that statement hefner 08:06:00 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 08:06:02 at some point you simply make it so that user describes what he wants to the infrastructure :P 08:06:08 sykopomp: this holds true for most of us individually, but doesn't scale. I can kludge something together to do exactly what I need at the moment, but no one else could use it. I'm no longer sure whether this is a good or bad thing. 08:06:10 ilitirit: You can put the (setf *dedicated.... ) forms into ~/.swank.lisp, btw. 08:06:43 tcr, yes thanks for that I will have a go later 08:07:32 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:07:44 is xristos the only [other] one who realizes a ui toolkit using opengl for common lisp has been done already? 08:08:22 apparently so. 08:08:37 hefner: if you ever do web apps; it's like kluding something for your own use, except everyone else can use it :-) 08:09:09 manic12: which one? 08:09:20 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 08:09:27 fusss: maybe. but most web apps are all interface and no logic. I'm referring to all logic and no interface. 08:09:39 HI = human interface by stefan landvogt and dave morse 08:09:42 since we're on the topic of UI stuff. I've read the brief Hemlock/Climacs comparison on the latter's homepage, but I'm still not sure how they compare. 08:09:53 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:10:20 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:10:37 <_3b> manic12: any papers to read about it? 08:10:41 for a hypothetical emacs-style editor widget in a non-CLIM GUI, would you start with the Drei/Climacs code base or with Phemlock? 08:11:17 _3b: no, it's the UI for Mirai 08:11:19 lichtblau: I'm equally ignorant of both. Hemlock is old and horrifying. Climacs is new, modern, and horrifying. I personally would start from scratch. 08:11:21 <_3b> (or anyone have interesting links to info about symbolics graphics/nichimen graphics for that matter?) 08:11:24 hefner: hohoho, no. choose your app domain wisely and you will be in for fun times. mine does everything from solving linear equations to tiling. 08:11:39 fusss: oh, I do. 08:11:47 <_3b> manic12: ok, so completely useless for me in other words? :) 08:12:07 _3b: I have been corresponding with Larry Malone of Izware 08:12:56 lichtblau: the thing about using Drei is that it basically drags in all of McCLIM with it. 08:12:58 (I almost said "what opengl toolkit? and no, that 3D package doesn't count") 08:13:07 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:16 manic12: isn't it normal for 3D programs to have interface done with the same 3D system as the rest of it... 08:13:44 p_l, i dunno, mirai is 08:14:23 HI is seperate from GEO (conceptually) 08:14:40 At least I had seen nearly the same behaviour from 3DSMax, Maya and exactly the same in Blender :) 08:16:22 maybe I parsed that wrong, but the last time I saw 3DSMax, it was windows widgets as far as the eye could see. 08:16:59 blender is the one i know does its own self-rendered and ugly GUI 08:17:03 I'd want to stay clear from "input editing", if only because I never understood it as programmer nor liked it's UI behaviour as a user. 08:17:06 But I like emacs-style command stuff, so long as I can replace clim:define-command with my own macro, that's fine. 08:17:11 I met up with Larry at siggraph last year 08:17:14 awww, blender's gui isn't -that- bad 08:17:15 :) 08:17:15 How much else does Drei pull in, really? Athas recent "pumping" code doesn't involve ordinary output recording/incremental redisplay, does it? 08:17:56 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-151-207.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:03 minion: thwap me! 08:18:03 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 08:18:07 hefner: I wouldn't be surprised if it draws into surfaces in 3D. At least I recall that it wasn't exactly normal. I might have been skewed by Blender (and possibly Maya, as it's multiplatform) 08:18:29 lichtblau: "input editing"? 08:18:34 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 08:18:42 like a 3d paint, or a vector draw? 08:19:06 <_3b> softimage i think draws its own widgets, max i'd guess native last i saw it 08:19:16 later, time for a 30 minute pointless drive to clear my head :-P 08:19:22 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 08:19:31 sykopomp: IIUC, that's the name for the disaster that powers command reading in CLIM-style interactors/listeners 08:20:06 lichtblau: I don't think output recording is central to it. Notably, the Drei cursor is an output record, but otherwise I think there's just some glue to support embedding it in a stream pane. 08:20:15 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F3E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:20:32 lichtblau: the whole "dashes are for losers" thing? 08:21:42 sykopomp: the really bad stuff starts when the arguments are being read, I think 08:21:48 ech 08:23:08 lichtblau: disaster is a bit strong. there's the underlying and perhaps unsolved but kludgable issue of what to do when editing previous arguments, but that's not a "disaster" 08:24:11 i wonder why "that 3D package doesn't count", but fusss is busy clearing his head 08:24:25 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:24:38 ..unless I've just been bowled over by the simplicity and power of lispm-style input editing. 08:24:57 granted, the experience in mcclim is not what it ought to be. 08:24:59 it seems like anything commercial or anything non-portable is satanic as far as people are concerned on this channel 08:25:00 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-138-67.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:04 roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:17 Okay. I'm certain that input editing is actually a marvelous and ingenious thing, if you're one of the McKay-hefner-Athas gang, who grok it because they *implemented* it at some point. 08:26:39 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:26:39 it has some limitations, like O(n) per some editing operations in the length of the input buffer 08:26:47 i believe in implementations before standards 08:26:50 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:27:02 unlike w3c 08:27:22 It's also possible that I've been ruined from using too much Unix shell. I have a strong dislike for excessive interactivity in user interfaces. 08:27:25 (that's not true either, if, as the spec states, you don't rescan past the cursor, but that makes displaying it difficult) 08:27:46 I.e., I want to type a full line of input, hit return, and then see the computer tell me I got an option wrong. Fantastic would be unobtrusive syntax highlighting to alert me to the fact that I got the syntax wrong. 08:28:13 if you have a symbolics keyboard it makes all the difference 08:29:01 But spurious strings popping up next to the cursor to inform me that I'm about to type an argument tend to interrupt my work flow. 08:29:27 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:30:31 eno [n=eno@adsl-70-137-137-191.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:31:06 I want to argue in favor of all the nice defaulting and completion you can do if you have structured command input (despite the mcclim user experience there being rather rough), but then I turn all the programmable completion nonsense off in bash. =/ 08:31:20 ilitirit: thank you again. cl-interpol makes it much easier. 08:31:24 np 08:31:38 -!- ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit ["Golden Weak!"] 08:32:48 anyway, if you don't want a command parser, you don't need an input editor. 08:32:57 (command processor, rather) 08:32:58 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:34:03 bash completion is the thing that doesn't complete file names if the argument isn't (strictly speaking) a file name. It's kind of like Windows, which doesn't open a text file, because it doesn't end in .txt. Both seems clever at the outset, but violates the principle that says "I know better than the computer, always". 08:34:40 lichtblau: Why do you not want the CLIM GUI? 08:34:50 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:00 -!- eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-151-207.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:35:22 beach: Because I'm in love with Qt. Think of it as something irrational. 08:35:29 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-11982.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 08:36:07 I still want a Lisp listener and Emacs-style editor in my Qt environment though, so aside from having to find time to do that, I also need to come up with a technical plan for both. 08:36:52 there is a reason why only people like us use lisp 08:37:05 -!- Ginei_Morioka [n=irssi_lo@78.112.56.72] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:37:12 Ginei_Morioka [n=irssi_lo@78.115.201.101] has joined #lisp 08:37:54 lisp is the language that happens when people have a hard time agreeing on anything 08:38:48 lichtblau: Yes, the everything-is-a-stream-of-bytes philosophy behind unix is what has kept interface technology behind what would be possible. 08:39:16 tcr: I'd rather say it was kept behind by violating that principle 08:39:19 Has it? 08:39:25 violating in bad way 08:39:30 you're almost right tcr: what it once was. 08:40:01 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:01 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:40:10 yes, well. At this point, Microsoft PowerShell with its everything-is-a-stream-of-objects philosophy is arguably more advanced than Unix or Lisp listeners, which I find a little sad. 08:40:41 doesn't that still run in a console window? 08:41:01 lichtblau: Is it? I find it at the level of what you can do with a lisp listener... 08:41:01 I thought mcclim's listener is based on that, too? 08:41:05 hefner: Yes. They still haven't figured out how to do readline-style editing and history stuff, which sticks out like a sore thumb. Most advanced command line language, sitting in a blue cmd.exe thing. Argh. 08:41:17 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-138-67.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [No route to host] 08:41:31 lichtblau: That's a console control, you can launch a nice spiffy gui interface for it, with editing and history 08:41:49 None of that is really about 'stream of bytes'. 08:41:53 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F3E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:42:06 p_l: I can? 08:42:18 tcr: based on what? 08:42:21 lichtblau: with PS 2.0, yes 08:42:28 What's significant in that is that they have a set of conventions for encoding references to objects into streams, with conventions for talking to those objects. 08:42:56 beach: what lichtblau said, everything's a stream of objects 08:43:06 p_l: Two questions: 1. how? 2. does it do things like C-r a.k.a isearch-backward? 08:43:59 manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:44:02 lichtblau: If you have powershell 2.0, you have two start menu options added. One for the normal console window, one for the gui editor, which basically includes an editor window (tabbed, iirc) and listener with history 08:44:31 p_l: hmm, thanks. Will try that when back at work. 08:44:32 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:44:36 tcr: CLIM streams only define the order of drawing operations. Objects that are drawn later, are drawn on top of objects that are drawn earlier. 08:44:43 drwhen [n=d@216-67-73-247-rb1.fai.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:50 lichtblau: just remember, it was added with version 2.0 08:45:10 beach: you might look at accept/present as read/write operations on a stream of objects 08:45:13 lichtblau: there's also support in Visual Studio for writing scripts which includes debugger 08:45:56 as for "everything is a stream of bytes" actually taken seriously to show it's power, look at PlanB. It might not look "nice", but when you see the demo system... 08:46:02 hefner: that would be a bit far fetched though, since you can then read them in any order. 08:46:30 beach: we're talking streams here in the sense of "ls | grep foo", which is based on objects rather than lines of text in PowerShell. I.e., you can chain commands. I'm not aware of a similar concept in CLIM. 08:47:22 right 08:47:42 though I consider PowerShell syntax (in full-blown version, without CMD or Unix aliases) quite atrocious... 08:47:42 lichtblau: I seem to recall an early mozilla demo called xmlterm 08:48:36 lichtblau: isn't the similar concept in clim actually reading and writing objects to a suitable stream? 08:48:38 lichtblau: you consider it a win to operate on streams of objects rather than in terms of functions with arguments and return values? 08:49:10 that is, you have a two-way extended-stream, and reading and writing objects to and from it should "just work" 08:49:17 hefner: probably because those objects are structured 08:49:19 with potential graphical feedback as a bonus 08:49:27 (now someone just needs to implement the details) 08:49:34 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:51:34 hefner: I don't know. My thinking is less a theoretical than a practical one. PowerShell allows me to write "foo | bar", in Lisp/CLIM it's hand-written (mapc (lambda (frob) (bar (foo-slot frob)) (foo))) code. The underlying technology may well be the same, but the syntax alone disqualifies the latter from running in this contest. 08:52:12 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:52:46 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-137-155.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 08:53:11 lichtblau: how do you like (| (foo) (bar))? :) 08:53:18 So your problem is a lack of a pipe operator. 08:53:36 I'll concede that lisp syntax is undesirable here, but that's a solvable UI issue. 08:54:04 (how? god knows. I never got that far.) 08:55:30 g'day #lisp 08:55:33 Ragnaroek [i=54a676dc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f0699ec9e4c64905] has joined #lisp 08:55:40 hello schme 08:56:18 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has left #lisp 08:57:06 Zhivago/p_l: the thing has three parts. 08:57:10 Syntax (pipe operator, not having to type parens!) is one of them. 08:57:14 lichtblau: If you start over, it would be nice to have a good buffer protocol. I know how to improve the one we use in Climacs. I also know how to improve the buffer implementation. So we should talk if that's what you are planning to do. 08:57:31 The second is an implementation of the commands FOO and BAR in the first place. Think FOO = ls and BAR = grep. You need to write those, too, and neither CL nor CLIM actually have useful commands in this direction. 08:58:01 scsh was kind of like PowerShell, but it unfortunately doesn't work on 64bit machines... you might get PowerShell to run on unices if you get DCOM and WMI working... 08:58:08 The third is a concept for "object" that's less rigid than CLOS. I don't want to type "grep -slot funny-package::slot-name", but rather have it do the right thing. 08:59:00 Now, all three issues are solvable. But existing Lisp or CLIM listeners don't really address *any* of those parts, so it's arguably a little more than a SMOP to implement them all. 08:59:04 well, you can embed such language inside Lisp (kind of how PowerShell is implemented, too) 08:59:21 lichtblau: The first two seem straight-forward -- the third seems incoherent. 09:00:08 lichtblau: you probably don't want full power of certain CL features directly exposed in that, too 09:01:09 my inclination, UI-wise, was toward being able to collect results and subsequently operate on them (to map or filter them, for instance), so that I might say: ls 09:01:52 and if you're pruning a list in the UI, you don't feel so bad about doing kludgey text things, because it's a one off operation, not code, and you can see the result as you go 09:01:58 wouldn't good stream manipulation system be enough for that? 09:02:13 even for a stream of 8bit bytes? :-) 09:03:18 Axioplase: did you manage to wrestle ECL into submission? 09:05:24 in the shell, I always wanted a nice ability to build and manipulate lists of files, including the ability to manually pick through add add/remove items. so I guess I still want lists of objects, not streams of objects. 09:05:51 hefner: closures holding lazy streams would be enough? :P 09:05:58 I have no idea what you're talking about. 09:06:23 *p_l* is not sure if he got terminology right this time 09:06:29 hefner: Think of a stream as a list. 09:06:30 lazy lists would be TRT, yes 09:06:41 in that case, no, absolutely not. 09:06:51 Why not? 09:07:00 if I really want streams, I'm probably writing a program. 09:07:00 p_l: I was away, and just relauched it. 09:07:01 But I thought of variables which you could use for that, and possibly have a gui for the shell allowing you to use a visualization 09:07:14 ah, it did compile! 09:07:19 :-) 09:08:24 It took a slight makefile change. 09:08:31 if I'm performing an action interactively, the operands are finite and I should be able to take a look at them and poke around them first. I want to pick things up and move them around, not wrestle with a fire hose. 09:08:39 hefner: What is the difference between a stream and a list? 09:08:54 I believe the ECL devs use non portable features of their shell. 09:09:28 Axioplase: you mean gc_{mark,inline}.h ? 09:09:51 Zhivago: what's the difference between a hose and a puddle? 09:10:04 hefner: Please don't babble. 09:10:19 eat a dick. 09:10:23 I believe that to be a bug in gmake. That, or your make launched it with csh or something similar :) 09:10:37 hefner: Please solicit elsewhere. 09:10:45 p_l: yes 09:10:56 hefner: one is short range precision non-lethal weapon, the other a water reservoir of small tactical importance? 09:10:56 It was straight like this in the Makefile 09:11:00 -!- bascule [i=noether@62.75.255.124] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:11:19 Yes. So I split it in two lines, and it worked. 09:11:26 ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:11:26 Axioplase: The thing is, it should have worked even on Unix V7 (might have to dig my copy out to check, though) 09:11:31 I'd like to be able to hit cancel when the window is busy computing and rendering a few more million objects than I intended to operate on, perhaps because I've already spotted the one that I'm interested in. So it's much nicer if those objects start displaying before the entire list has been computed. 09:11:32 I can't remember what I (we?) are talking about, and which side I'm on. 09:12:20 Now, as I installed it in some weird place, it doesn't find the libs. I need to remember how to tell freebsd "look in /foo/bar/lib too" 09:12:36 Example: git's output is shown incrementally like this, not just using less in the terminal, but also in the GUI tools. It's amazingly useful to not have to wait for the entire output to have been computed. 09:12:40 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:12:50 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:13:40 output to the user and a stream to another computation are different things 09:14:01 hefner: Why? 09:14:17 because output to the user can't screw anything up 09:14:19 Axioplase: Good :) 09:14:21 brb 09:14:33 hefner: Are you on drugs? 09:14:51 Zhivago: no. are you an asshole? 09:15:06 vande [n=sdfpme@119.128.108.245] has joined #lisp 09:15:41 hefner: If you're not on drugs, you might consider taking some. 09:15:57 hefner: There seem to be some problems in your thought processes. 09:16:29 Zhivago: no, you just aren't very imaginative. 09:16:36 -!- laurent-atl [n=user@adsl-074-244-110-170.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:17:04 Like not being able to imagine that output to a user can screw anything up? 09:17:35 did you invert the sense of the remark? 09:17:42 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-21-123.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:03 Seems to work \o/ Now, I can 1/send a patch to the ECL devs, 2/send a patch to the FBSD maintainer, 3/... 4/Profit! 09:18:04 hefner: No. You appear to be unable to imagine that output to a user can screw anything up. 09:18:29 I think this conversation is screwed up. 09:18:45 I can, if I like. 09:19:49 hefner: Then why did you claim that it can't? 09:19:51 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 09:20:32 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:20:43 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:22:17 I think we got completely derailed at some point. Please, no flames, pretty please ? 09:22:26 apparently because I don't weigh all varieties of user error equally, though I don't think that will shed light on anything 09:22:38 Until about 7 minutes ago I was enjoying this conversation. 09:24:15 now I see why Zhivago has such an adoring fan club on this network. 09:25:23 hefner: Perhaps you might like to do a little introspection. 09:25:25 hefner: what about having the listener/GUI/whatever that the user is using communicate with whatever set of command he just executed just like any other program, then visualize it nicely for the user? 09:25:33 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.146.241] has joined #lisp 09:25:58 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 09:26:26 oh, there he is. Perhaps I can get back to my original question. 09:26:34 benny` [n=benny@i577A2547.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:26:49 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:27:03 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-246.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 09:27:06 Athas: I'm trying to figure out the differences between Drei/Climacs and Phemlock, in particular in a non-CLIM context. 09:27:19 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:27:35 lichtblau: what kind of differences? 09:28:18 E.g., if I wanted to port either of them to Qt (and away from CLIM), would it be easier to do for Phemlock than for Drei? 09:28:57 ..my point, before Zhivago attempted to derail me, was simply that streams and pipes are great, but it sometimes makes me nervous connecting things together without much ability to inspect what is occurring, and there I prefer the lisp (versus shell) style of working. 09:29:26 I think they would be equally easy. 09:29:27 and if you want to consider these equivalent for some definition of lists and streams, I'm sure you'll have great fun constructing a suitable user interface. 09:29:51 hefner: what about a dataflow diagram? 09:30:05 Muld [i=wr23@88-196-40-23-dsl.noe.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 09:30:06 But a plain port is probably not wise, the Qt text editor widget has way better redisplay than either Drei or Phemlock, so adapting the internals would likely be the best approach. 09:30:16 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-246.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 09:30:30 p_l: I'm pro-dataflow diagrams, but isn't that just a graphical representation of pipes? 09:31:26 hefner: Well, the diagram is a start. I'd have to actually start experimenting with the concept to get a closer grasp 09:32:11 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:32:24 I don't know why, but I'm slightly reminded of DDD :) 09:33:17 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:33:17 -!- manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:34:11 Athas: hmm. So you'd use QTextEdit::moveCursor, QTextEdit::paste, etc so implement a buffer protocol, then add emacs commands on top of that? 09:34:37 matley [n=matley@83.224.202.46] has joined #lisp 09:36:12 No, I would probably use the bottom layers of Drei intact (including the buffer protocol implementation), but reimplement redisplay in terms of QTextEdit, rather than using the Qt drawing primitives directly. 09:37:45 would the QTextEdit contain the entire buffer data, with changes "triggered" from drei buffer to QTextEdit contents, or just the visible region? 09:37:52 fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EAEDD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:52 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A253F.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:38:28 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.77.122] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:38:39 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.77.122] has joined #lisp 09:40:52 Joreji [n=nah@41-218.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:43:02 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 09:43:18 dys` [n=andreas@p5B316FDB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:03 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.234.112] has joined #lisp 09:45:37 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:45:43 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-246.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 09:46:11 I'm not sure. I haven't worked with Qt in years. 09:49:02 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 09:49:19 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:49:22 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B317380.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:49:59 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-231-13.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 09:51:02 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:51:03 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-246.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 09:51:48 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-201-172-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:52:24 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl092.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:52:35 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:54:03 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:56:19 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:57:16 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 09:58:57 brandelune [n=suzume@pl092.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:59:07 mun [n=mun@93-97-172-28.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:59:07 hi 09:59:13 is link-file a builtin function? 09:59:27 clhs link-file 09:59:27 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for link-file. 09:59:50 ok thanks 10:00:11 loxs [n=loxs@fw1.netmania-it.com] has joined #lisp 10:00:27 mun: built into what? 10:00:28 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:00:43 does anyone here have thoughts about the book succesful lisp? 10:01:20 Do you think you need another introductory Lisp book? 10:01:30 tcr: no, not for me :) 10:02:50 tcr: I am thinking about reading it, since I have a hard time advising people the right book. I hear some people say that the PCL is hard (which is probably due to the nice writing style combined with massive input of data) 10:04:25 is link-file supposed to be a function in "(make-pairdb pairdb 200011)(link-file pairdb pairs.hdr)(set-pairdb English-parser pairdb)" orry i'm very new to lisp. 10:05:59 mun: function, or a macro 10:06:10 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:25 madnificent, i see. but i've tried search for it but i can't find it defined anywhere. 10:07:04 madnificent, does it have to be defined in another lsp file? 10:07:04 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:07:14 mun: sorry, can't help you with that. Look in the documentation of the library you're trying to use (or perhaps in the source (search for the symbol in a defun or a defmacro) 10:07:18 huh, thats kind of interesting. I just noticed that SBCL is number 7 on the shootout list :) 10:07:33 mun: it may be defined in another lisp file, yes 10:08:12 ok thanks 10:09:31 zbrown: which shootout list? 10:12:47 probably http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=all&box=1 10:13:25 Ogedei: thanks 10:14:37 I wonder how the commercial lisps would do in those tests 10:14:59 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087ABA9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:04 and ghc is surprisingly fast 10:16:12 yeah, but the code is horrifying. 10:16:13 madnificent: thats because they manage not to use the Data.Map implementation :) 10:16:25 madnificent: The Haskell people care more about shootout 10:16:55 it would seem they hold onto the fact that its fast with a sort of "see we're as good as C/C++" kind of attitude... 10:16:55 zbrown: care to elaborate? 10:17:08 madnificent: the Data.Map implementation in the haskell standard library is awful 10:17:10 tcr: so basically, the lisp version isn't optimised? 10:17:36 madnificent: sbcl does a lot of high level optimizations, but not many low level ones. 10:18:01 madnificent: in my experience as well as others' benchmarks it performs awful. While in OCaml and F# adding a million elements and iterating them takes ~1-2 seconds, Haskell's Data.Map hits the 22 second realm 10:18:39 I find it to be quite fair for the amount of high-level constructs you get in CL. 3.37 times slower... that's not going to kill you in most cases. No garbage collection may 10:18:54 zbrown: ouch 10:19:22 madnificent: there are fixes of course in Hackage but most people's comments when you mention that are "well we dont see much use for hash tables" 10:19:25 most of the SBCL entries have not been updated for the quad core benchmark 10:19:58 away 10:20:00 doh 10:20:05 stupid away msg 10:20:13 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has joined #lisp 10:22:21 guille_ [n=guille_@106.Red-83-39-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:25 I wonder if they used GHC to compile to C or native code... 10:24:33 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:24:59 madnificent: I hope you don't go around "bragging" that CL is only 3.37 times slower than C or whatever 10:25:01 :) 10:25:55 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:26:34 i think being 3x as slow as c is acceptable for not having to write c ;) 10:27:53 madnificent: The cool thing about SBCL is that you can hack the compiler from within third-party code. So you can add domain-specific extensions. 10:28:18 I think you can do better than 3x, at least on these toy benchmarks. 10:28:20 hefner: no, not at all. For me, its simply worth the hassle. You get a whole range of features, for a relatively small speed loss 10:28:48 tcr: I wonder about lisp compiler optimisations. I'm generally only interested in high-level stuff though 10:29:54 madnificent: DEFTRANSFORM is similiar to compiler-macros but it operates on the CFG not the AST, so you have access to type information. 10:31:25 *pinterface* ooohs and makes a note to look into that later. 10:31:53 *madnificent* joins in pinterface's amazement 10:32:13 <_3b> for extra fun, you can start defining your own VOPs :) 10:33:43 *_3b* never actually managed to convince the code to go faster that way though. 10:37:12 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.234.112] has left #lisp 10:37:44 X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has joined #lisp 10:39:02 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:40:26 *blast_hardcheese* help 10:42:02 -!- ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has quit ["ping pong poff"] 10:42:49 deliana [n=deliana@ABordeaux-158-1-117-18.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:51:54 blast_hardcheese: ? 10:52:36 schme: err... I found the "Send /me help to all channels I'm in" button 10:52:40 :) 10:53:03 oh :) 10:53:27 Thank you though, back to idling for me 10:53:33 <_3b> that sounds almost as useful as the paste all scrollback button :) 10:55:30 _3b: I'll keep clear of that one as well, now that you mention it. 10:59:52 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:02:36 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 11:05:31 -!- guille_ [n=guille_@106.Red-83-39-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:16:18 guille_ [n=guille_@106.Red-83-39-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:46 -!- matley [n=matley@83.224.202.46] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:25:20 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.90.15] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:28:32 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:36 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.146.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:35:24 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student166-199.hampshire.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:35:55 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-137-155.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:39:25 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.71.28] has left #lisp 11:39:31 SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.71.28] has joined #lisp 11:39:32 -!- benny` is now known as benny 11:39:53 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:41:14 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:43:41 -!- vande [n=sdfpme@119.128.108.245] has left #lisp 11:45:04 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:46:18 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:53:55 -!- pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:54:58 pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:42 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:45 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:57:56 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88.96.24.54] has joined #lisp 12:00:34 -!- loxs [n=loxs@fw1.netmania-it.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:02:23 etate [n=etate@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:02:39 user__ [n=user@p57A7C76F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:40 zomg cl-ftgl working in gl, so pretty 12:02:50 <_3b> sounds useful :) 12:03:27 i made only a small binding with only functionality needed so maybe not so useful :( 12:04:22 but i think cl-ftgl should work, however it was a bitch building the right ftgl.dll on win32 12:04:33 <_3b> http://repo.or.cz/w/cl-ftgl.git <- that one? 12:04:35 most of the ones on the net for win32 export only the C++ interface 12:04:50 <_3b> yeah, getting .dlls right can be annoying :( 12:05:12 yeah, working in lisp makes you forget those annoyances usually :/ 12:05:52 so now i have 3d object loading via vbos, shaders, fonts, basic terrain generation, basic scene tree + simulation tree 12:05:53 hmmz 12:06:17 what more do you need in a 3d engine 12:06:20 <_3b> cool, obviously the next steo is linking screenshots on #lisp :p 12:06:25 <_3b> *next step 12:06:34 vande [n=sdfpme@119.128.108.245] has joined #lisp 12:06:37 <_3b> animation? 12:06:52 yeah, i don't have an animated model to work with unfortunately 12:07:00 i'm trying to get my brother to produce some :D 12:07:12 <_3b> yeah, that part can be a hassle too :) 12:07:20 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:07:31 yeah, i was thinking of using bullet 12:07:38 it has a nice ragdoll demo :D 12:07:45 and just basically building robots 12:07:51 so that i dont have to create models :P 12:07:54 <_3b> cool 12:08:13 i'm kind of scared of making the code public though 12:08:19 eslg [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 12:08:21 <_3b> heh 12:08:37 so i'm going to clean it up first 12:08:38 ehehee 12:08:55 *_3b* needs to get some code posted too :/ 12:08:59 and learn how to set up a git repo 12:09:32 _3b: what code have you got? i've seen you on here before, you helped me with some 3d stuff in the past 12:09:35 elias` [n=me@resnet-nat-082.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:09:44 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:10:10 <_3b> at the moment, main things are the swf lib i'm working on, and the new version of my avm2 compiler 12:10:24 oh sweet 12:10:34 so you can create flash animations in lisp 12:10:43 <_3b> (neither really at a useable point, but enough work that an outside backup would be nice :) 12:10:45 i think you showed me an early version with a flying white box 12:10:53 maybe? 12:11:18 <_3b> don't remember flying boxes, last one i did was a flying mario though :) 12:11:23 so is this so that you can code cl instead of flash? :D 12:11:49 or actionscript, even 12:11:53 nyef [n=nyef@24.220.182.229] has joined #lisp 12:11:58 G'morning all. 12:12:04 <_3b> http://www.3bb.cc/tmp/svg-test-mario3.swf <- that one 12:12:09 nyef: hi 12:12:11 <_3b> yeah, avoiding actionscript is the main goal 12:12:23 wow cool 12:12:37 i'm going to see if i can get a screenshot of this cl-ftgl prettyness 12:12:38 sec 12:13:43 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 12:14:01 dlowe [n=dlowe@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 12:14:36 mooto [n=chatzill@59.172.140.184] has joined #lisp 12:14:36 #lisp 12:15:35 -!- guille_ [n=guille_@106.Red-83-39-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:16:34 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:16:54 jfactor [n=jfactor@student166-199.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 12:17:05 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 12:17:26 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 12:18:26 sweet: http://cmalune.ath.cx/clftgl.png 12:18:48 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:19:08 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 12:19:12 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:19:20 (not sure if that link works to the outside world but it should theoretically) 12:19:26 <_3b> text in the corner i assume is the ftgl part? 12:19:31 yeah 12:19:33 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:19:42 <_3b> cool 12:19:54 :D 12:20:32 *_3b* usually just prints to *standard-output* instead :) 12:20:42 Indeed, that is nice. 12:21:00 etate: nice 12:22:28 *_3b* 's current GL project draws all of 1 triangle so far :) 12:22:56 manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:22:56 *standard-ouput* is nice for a while 12:22:56 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88.96.24.54] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:23:09 but i'm trying to make it so that i have a REPL 12:23:13 inside the engine 12:23:38 so instead of the usual quake style "cmdline", REPL time. :) 12:23:49 <_3b> yeah, i need one of those at some point too :) 12:24:24 i've been meaning to write up all of the stuff i have so far, but writing tutorials takes a long time 12:24:26 -!- manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:24:28 -!- Muld [i=wr23@88-196-40-23-dsl.noe.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:24:30 (for some reason) 12:24:38 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:24:48 <_3b> heh, that's what i'm working on now 12:25:03 <_3b> has probably taken me most of a week just to get to the point of actually starting writing :( 12:25:10 *_3b* is too picky about tools 12:25:30 yeah i try to do it quickly because otherwise it just never gets done 12:25:35 so i have only 1 online so far!! 12:25:53 but i have a VBO tutorial that i'm semi happy with 12:26:00 HET3 [n=diman@v254-063.vps.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 12:26:03 <_3b> i've needed some sort of setup for putting content on my site for a while though, so hopefully this will be useful there too 12:26:16 guille_ [n=guille_@106.Red-83-39-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:28 have you found somewhere that formats lisp code nicely? 12:26:34 (without hassles etc) 12:26:42 (and syntax colouring) 12:26:57 or are you hosting your site yourself? 12:27:33 <_3b> self hosted, i use the code from lisppaste, hacked into cl-markdown with more explicitly delimited blocks than normal markdown, so i can use multi-mode.el to run markdown-mode and slime in the same buffer :) 12:27:56 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-093-250.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:28:06 wow nice 12:28:25 <_3b> yeah, the multi-mode part is a bit flakey, but seems useful if i'm careful 12:28:41 is there a link 12:28:48 :) 12:29:04 *etate* wants that 12:29:07 <_3b> none yet 12:29:31 <_3b> i'm still hacking on it as i try to use it 12:29:44 -!- vande [n=sdfpme@119.128.108.245] has quit ["leaving"] 12:29:48 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.69.135] has joined #lisp 12:29:57 i should probably get off wordpress haha 12:30:07 its not written in lisp, for starters 12:30:16 <_3b> having stuff already set up for you does have its benefits though :) 12:30:17 PHP, pah 12:30:40 totally, its been really useful so far 12:31:27 i was writing a blender extension so that you could use lisp instead of the default python interpreter at some point 12:31:42 the blender channel did not like me 12:32:08 which lisp? 12:32:15 ecl 12:32:19 hee hee 12:32:40 <_3b> heh 12:32:54 etate: nice stuff. this is relevant to my interests. 12:33:42 antifuchs: will keep hacking and eventually post code then hehe 12:33:52 yeah, screenshot was nice and all, but i didn't understand what is it? 12:34:00 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:34:03 <_3b> http://www.3bb.cc/b/test/ <- test page from the other day, yay programmer colors :) 12:34:17 elias` [n=me@resnet-nat-082.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:34:18 I wrote a plugin to art of illusion a short while ago that lets me connect to it vial clojure/swank and frob models together (: 12:34:23 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:34:27 stassats`: its basically using the FTGL library (freetype2) to render fonts in an OpenGL context 12:34:37 -!- HET3 [n=diman@v254-063.vps.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:34:39 stassats`: means you can get extruded fonts etc 12:34:44 etate: aha, that was my guess 12:34:55 etate: having a CL available in blender would be much preferable, I think (now that I have acclimatized to its more uncommon ui design choices) (: 12:35:32 antifuchs: indeed, thats also what I thought, the trouble is the blender source code is very dense 12:35:34 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 12:35:48 it reflects the UI, then (-: 12:35:56 antifuchs: haha, exactly 12:36:29 antifuchs: in any case i have a .obj export function thing which allows me at the very least to export and use blender models 12:36:43 but a lot more work has to be done to get to the same level as the python integration 12:37:02 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:09 that comes default with blender 12:37:23 yeah, I bet. a lot of work seems to have gone into that 12:37:25 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:37:37 yeah, the thing is, i'm starting to like the engine being coded entirely in lisp 12:37:50 so maybe a REPL in OpenGL will suffice really 12:38:20 <_3b> just write a GL terminal emulator and run emacs in it instead :) 12:38:27 hahaha 12:38:39 dreadyman [n=anthony@191.128.68-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:42 i was actually thinking: GLEmacs, the next evolution of lisp 12:38:44 IC. for solid modelling at least, there's opencascade, which is just a kernel for operations on meshes. could be useful if you don't want to recreate all that 12:39:34 antifuchs: yeah, the conclusion I came to was that the more you look into how blender works, the simpler you realise it actually is 12:40:03 antifuchs: tis just a 3d renderer with some nice functions to create meshes 12:40:09 true. 12:40:16 -!- dreadyman [n=anthony@191.128.68-86.rev.gaoland.net] has left #lisp 12:40:30 and all I need really is the nice functions to create meshes and see if they're watertight (: 12:40:39 I've recently taken up 3d printing as a hobby ((: 12:40:54 antifuchs: :) nice 12:40:54 *stassats`* thinks that it would be cool to learn blender, but doesn't know what for 12:41:25 stassats`: theres an excellent tutorial online, that i showed my younger brother and his friend, and they both created models by the end of it! 12:41:27 stassats`: 3d printing is a very good reason. you can make such wonderful things 12:41:46 <_3b> yeah, 3d printing stuff looks like fun :) 12:41:50 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-69-221.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:00 <_3b> (particularly if you go with the edible one :) 12:42:13 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633852.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 12:42:24 antifuchs: i guess 3d printers are not that cheap 12:42:32 stassats`: http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Doc:Tutorials/Animation/BSoD/Character_Animation 12:42:44 <_3b> depends on how much you want to scrounge through scrap hardware to get parts :) 12:42:45 stassats`: $750 for a 10x10x10cm printable volume one 12:43:04 etate: thanks 12:43:25 a couple hundred for one you build yourself entirely from parts (and some machined stuff you can get for cheap if you know people (-:) 12:44:23 and a couple (a couple dozen?) thousand for an enterprise-grade high-precision one. 12:44:59 antifuchs: man and there was I thinking people sculpted :) 12:45:00 there is a large gap in the middle, which, with the arrival of the reprap and the fab@home project, people are racing to fill (: 12:45:10 nope, plastic extrusion (: 12:46:02 <_3b> bah, can't eat plastic, candyfab ftw :p 12:46:26 <_3b> (at least i think they ended getting it edible eventually) 12:46:32 the candyfab is wonderful. but for stuff that you don't want to eat... (: 12:46:33 can you 3d print candy??? 12:46:37 sure 12:46:43 awesome. 12:46:45 <_3b> http://candyfab.org/ 12:46:59 you apply a thin layer of powdered sugar, then caramelize the parts you want solid with a heater (-: 12:47:14 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 12:47:24 that is utterly amazing 12:47:32 ltriant [n=none@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 12:47:39 sup 12:47:45 arbitrary overhangs, too 12:47:54 fractal candy is the future 12:48:00 this is something that the plastic extrusion ones don't do yet, not without support material at least 12:48:01 *p_l* wonders how awesome candy one could make with modded, 2-head fab@home 12:49:14 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-159.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:50:07 <_3b> p_l: what, these not awesome enough? : http://www.flickr.com/photos/oskay/490968373/ 12:51:35 pure sugar, not really something for me ;_; 12:51:46 <_3b> yeah, there is that problem 12:52:00 otoh, the candyfab is 20 DPI, while we achieve precision of between 2/10mm 4/10mm with the reprap (: 12:52:29 fab@home prints circuits ;-) 12:52:56 p_l: hmm, have to check that one out again. the makerbot prints its own spare parts, though (: 12:53:11 I rather like the "software update to get a better machine" approach 12:53:23 and I wonder which bootstrapping procedures people are going to come up with 12:53:46 and upgrade on the fly 12:55:18 antifuchs: Well, fab@home cheated and had gone for more parts build with more expensive machinery :) 12:55:52 ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:56:32 *_3b* needs to find a source of income to pay for fun stuff like that :) 12:56:51 _3b: me too... 12:57:17 and time to play with them 12:57:32 <_3b> i'd actually probably have more time if i had income :p 12:57:42 go become grad students at bath university (: 12:57:47 LOL 12:57:56 antifuchs: you are in Bath? 12:57:58 no 12:58:06 <_3b> heh, don't you usually need to graduate somewhere first to be a grad student? :p 12:58:08 *p_l* has been lately reading phd comic 12:58:13 _3b: selling printed details? 12:58:16 but it's where adrian bowyer is assembling the singularity 12:58:38 "assembling the singularity"? 12:58:44 vande [n=sdfpme@119.128.108.245] has joined #lisp 12:58:51 Davidbrcz [n=david@193.52.24.125] has joined #lisp 12:59:04 from my POV, they need good compiler writers - the slicing software that they built generates positively awful tool paths. 12:59:30 antifuchs: well, I suspect it might be good training for writing software for nanofabs 12:59:54 I was hoping our benevolent minor god-like AIs would take care of that (: 13:00:39 antifuchs: AIs also need compilers :P 13:00:46 true 13:00:50 so get to work! (: 13:01:01 AGIs not necessarily, but by the time we get to AGI, I plan to get away from here :P 13:01:39 rolly1975 [n=rory@193.108.73.27] has joined #lisp 13:01:39 -!- vande [n=sdfpme@119.128.108.245] has quit [Client Quit] 13:03:08 -!- ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has quit ["leaving"] 13:03:15 gh7d395p169wd [n=dsadsads@d75-157-249-24.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:21 -!- gh7d395pi69wd [n=dsadsads@unaffiliated/gh7d395pi69wd] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:05:01 i wrote this kind of ad-hoc toolpath generation thing for my mill 13:05:02 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:04 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 13:05:07 http://cl-mill.googlecode.com 13:08:14 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a676dc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f0699ec9e4c64905] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 13:09:42 3d-text test instead of the flat previous pixmap one: http://cmalune.ath.cx/clftgl_3d.png 13:09:56 manuel_: awesome - I'll definitely try it out 13:09:58 (to show off fgtl extrusion) 13:10:11 antifuchs: it's "personal" code 13:10:12 it works for me 13:10:17 i can't read it anymore though 13:11:06 manuel_: understood. most of the reprap folks use skeinforge right now, code that everyone seems to describe as "magic" and nobody understands what it's doing, but works for most cases 13:11:56 chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-188-098-218-148.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:02 so it sounds like yours might be at the same level, except I trust you more than the skeinforge folks, none of whom I've ever met (-: 13:12:15 "ahahaha" 13:12:16 :} 13:12:29 Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:12:31 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:46 i would double check the generated gcode 13:13:14 right. do you use anything to visualize the generated gcode? 13:13:34 ah, there's an svg output thing? 13:13:43 etate: albeit clearly more fancy, the previous screenshot looked better :) 13:14:09 etate: does show that it works good :) 13:14:11 *_3b* has a textured quad now, instead of just a triangle :) 13:15:01 madnificent: totally, pixmaps are much faster too, but theres something cool about being able to change all the fonts in the system to 3d in one function change. :D 13:15:07 theL00p [n=user@78.33.52.101] has joined #lisp 13:15:20 ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 13:15:30 "the system" meaning clisp in this case 13:15:31 "was auch immer das hier sein soll, wir checkens ieber ein" 13:15:39 *antifuchs* giggles at manuel_'s commit message 13:15:49 :} 13:16:10 antifuchs: pdf output is kind of a one hour hack 13:16:17 i use my gcode controller to visualize toolpath 13:16:26 pdf - sweet (: 13:16:40 yeah but it works for my casings, and i can't guarantee anything else :) 13:16:48 it doesn't read stl or any other 3d modeller output format right now, does it? (: 13:17:01 no it's 2.5d stuff atm 13:17:19 ok, cool 13:17:57 it's for a mill, not reprap :) 13:18:37 indeed. but it does generate gcode, and that makes me happy (and slightly more confident that this can be understood by mere humans) 13:19:17 time to go now... will report back when I have made progress ((: 13:19:18 "heehee'" 13:19:22 take a look at geometry.lisp 13:19:27 ok 13:19:30 i need to refactor this 13:20:36 that's cool - line intersection things are part of what I need. (: 13:20:58 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-093-250.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:21:20 -!- guille_ [n=guille_@106.Red-83-39-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:27:09 vande [n=sdfpme@119.128.108.245] has joined #lisp 13:27:14 -!- nyef [n=nyef@24.220.182.229] has quit ["Gone for the day."] 13:27:55 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:27:57 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.160.71.28] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:30:54 kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:01 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:31:12 -!- vande is now known as Vegan 13:34:59 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:35:52 -!- theL00p is now known as kapolonc 13:36:21 -!- eslg [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has quit ["sleeping"] 13:36:22 -!- kapolonc is now known as TheL00p 13:39:18 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:06 -!- TheL00p is now known as theL00p 13:40:44 -!- theL00p [n=user@78.33.52.101] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:43:10 chris2__ [n=chris@dslb-188-098-220-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:51 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 13:49:39 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl092.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 13:51:30 -!- drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-111.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 13:53:52 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 13:54:53 -!- chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-188-098-218-148.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:59:18 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:01:02 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:30 stakkr [n=user@85.224.227.17] has joined #lisp 14:02:09 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EAEDD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:02:13 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:34 mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has joined #lisp 14:03:16 dreadyman [n=anthony@191.128.68-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:16 -!- dreadyman [n=anthony@191.128.68-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:06:34 grumps [n=grumps@adsl-69-209-49-188.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:57 -!- grumps [n=grumps@adsl-69-209-49-188.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:09:31 sepult_ [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-113.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:11:34 theL00p [n=user@78.33.52.101] has joined #lisp 14:11:39 -!- mooto [n=chatzill@59.172.140.184] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 14:12:09 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:12:20 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.212.31] has joined #lisp 14:12:30 stuart71 [n=soverton@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:26 What is the best and most authoritative guide to using CLX (besides the source code)? 14:13:51 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:14:17 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:14:21 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:14:26 stuart71: the CLX manual 14:14:36 mouratov [n=mouratov@94.41.31.168.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:15:00 For instance: http://www.stud.uni-karlsruhe.de/~unk6/clxman/ 14:15:00 minion: clx manual? 14:15:01 clx manual: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/clx%20manual 14:16:06 Okay, I've read the CLX manual, and it's good but it seems somewhat incomplete. 14:16:49 stuart71: Whether you have read it or not, it remains the best and most authoritative guide to using CLX. 14:18:22 stuart71: in what way do you find it incomplete? 14:18:48 loxs [n=loxs@fw1.netmania-it.com] has joined #lisp 14:20:39 theoffset [n=ismael@201-167-102-96-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has joined #lisp 14:21:08 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-9.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:21:28 beach: It's a good reference, but there are some things I'm having trouble with, like the WINDOW-PRIORITY function. In SBCL, it doesn't seem to be defined, and the only way I can find to change the stacking order of windows is with the CIRCULATE-WINDOW-DOWN and CIRCULATE-WINDOW-UP functions, which don't seem to be the way to raise or lower a specific window. 14:22:31 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:40 Also, I want to know more about events, specifically how to handle the window manager closing the window, so that I could throw up a "Do you want to save before closing" dialog, or something like that 14:23:36 -!- buggarag` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-74-9.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:23:52 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F3E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:52 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-117-18.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:27:34 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 14:27:41 The version of CLX I'm using is "MIT R5.02", and was installed on my ubuntu box with the package "cl-clx-sbcl" 14:27:57 beach [n=user@90.60.228.18] has joined #lisp 14:28:52 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:28:53 smithzv_ [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:00 grumps [n=grumps@adsl-69-209-49-188.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:20 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.108.245] has quit ["leaving"] 14:29:27 the recommended version is from darcs get http://common-lisp.net/~crhodes/clx 14:29:30 stuart71: where in the CLX documentation do you see the window-priority function. 14:29:49 It's mentioned in section 4.4 14:30:46 Indeed it is, but I don't think it is documented in the manual. 14:31:02 It just calls SET-WINDOW-PRIORITY, which isn't exported by the XLIB package 14:32:02 For McCLIM, is there a good way to create a command, but make it more like a catchall? I'm thinking, if I wanted to do a terminal app (or a very basic one), having one catchall function, then executing the system function for anything passed into it, catching exceptions and handling things in one spot would make sense. 14:32:25 I got it where I can define each individual command, but nothing that can catch everything and I haven't found much about this sorta thing. 14:33:32 stuart71: The problems you are having seem more related to the implementation as opposed to the documentation of it. 14:34:06 Ragnaroek [i=54a676dc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-968cf4bdb369d734] has joined #lisp 14:34:07 TDT: What do you mean by a catchall? 14:34:33 -!- sepult_ [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-113.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:34:54 I think you're right. I mentioned (while you were out of the room) that it's from the ubuntu cl-clx-sbcl package and the *version* variable says "MIT R5.02" 14:34:56 jcowan [n=jcowan@74.68.154.18] has joined #lisp 14:35:29 beach: maybe I should use asdf-install? 14:35:30 beach: Well, for example lets say I want to implement the "ls" command, or allow it in this "terminal" - so I'd have to do something like (define-term-command (com-ls) () (...)), what I'd rather do is something like a define-term-command that is the *default* if nothing else is defined. 14:35:46 no, not asdf-install 14:35:54 minion: clbuild? 14:35:55 clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 14:36:31 TDT: and how would that command be invoked? 14:36:57 stassats`: You're right there. ASDF-INSTALL just barfed trying to install CLX 14:37:37 or just use the above darcs repository 14:37:40 hi, can I execute-around specific method within a specific let or labels only? 14:37:47 beach: Well, the main thing I'm kinda relating this to is the "method-missing" type concept that Ruby has. The idea is that if it can't find the method you're trying to invoke, then it'll go to another method (the method missing) where it can be invoked differently or an exception raised. 14:38:07 I could use some insight about what built-in types are useful to have available at macro expansion time. So far I have symbol, cons, simple-vector, string, character, function, condition, and fixnum. Does anybody have a case for having other types? 14:38:41 beach: Since it appears that the CLIM commands are in a table of sorts, a default at the end wouldn't seem impossible I'd think, butthe API documentation is huge so I'm still searching through that :) 14:38:51 TDT: Oh, I see. There should be a condition signaled when you try to find the command. 14:39:10 stuart71: but window-priority isn't defined here either, only (setf window-priority) 14:40:07 beach: Oh, fantastic idea actually, I didn't even think about that. I could wrap this in a handler bind once I find the exception raised and use a restart to call what I want. 14:40:27 beach: Gives me an area to look in, thanks for the help :) 14:40:38 stassats`: are you looking at the source? I see that window-priority is a defsetf function. 14:40:48 TDT: no problem 14:41:29 stuart71: it is, defsetf doesn't define a function, but setf expansion 14:41:47 (get-setf-expansion '(xlib:window-priority 10)) 14:42:48 TDT: seems to be input-not-of-required-type. 14:43:00 So I'm wondering what is the proper way of using window-priority? 14:43:09 -!- ltriant [n=none@202.136.38.162] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 14:43:58 (setf (xlib:window-priority window) :above) i guess 14:44:27 clim input-not-of-required-type 14:44:28 Multiple entries found. Try looking up one of: "input-not-of-required-type,Function", "input-not-of-required-type,Error Condition" 14:44:31 minion: thwap 14:44:32 thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 14:44:47 That wasn't directed at anyone. Just a test. 14:45:00 clim input-not-of-required-type,Error Condition 14:45:00 No beating the minion, please. 14:45:00 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/24-3.html#_1334 14:45:01 gigamonk`: thwap? what does that mean? 14:45:03 roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:22 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:45:22 madnificent: it's a bit of automated grammar-agression. 14:45:27 when you misuse apostrophes you get thwapped 14:45:43 stassats`: like both of you two? 14:46:30 that's not an apostrophe! 14:46:40 :P 14:47:01 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:47:58 chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-094-216-204-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:21 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-113.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:49:41 _REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 14:50:11 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 14:50:16 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 14:50:18 -!- _REPLeffect is now known as REPLeffect 14:50:21 -!- loxs [n=loxs@fw1.netmania-it.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:51:11 -!- chris2__ [n=chris@dslb-188-098-220-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:54:37 beach and stassats`: thank you for the help. :) 14:54:42 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:55:00 does it work for you? 14:55:05 stassats`: I'm still a bit of a lisp newbie, and the usage of the setf function threw me. 14:55:59 stassats`: It does, at least it doesn't cause an error. :) I still need to do one small test to see if it does what I understand it's supposed to do. 14:57:33 stassats`: Yes! That's what I was looking for. Thanks! 14:58:19 you are welcome 14:58:34 pdponze [n=pierre@144.85.124.11] has joined #lisp 14:59:25 -!- stuart71 [n=soverton@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 15:00:23 -!- user__ [n=user@p57A7C76F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:01:30 Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.108.245] has joined #lisp 15:03:14 -!- Vegan [n=sdfpme@119.128.108.245] has quit [Client Quit] 15:04:11 mvatki [n=michael@64.195.172.5] has joined #lisp 15:12:33 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:13:44 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:37 -!- nullwork [n=nullwork@24.245.23.122] has quit ["leaving"] 15:21:38 nullwork` [n=kyle@24.245.23.122] has joined #lisp 15:25:46 -!- dys` [n=andreas@p5B316FDB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:27:22 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 15:32:15 sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has joined #lisp 15:33:36 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 15:34:07 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@74.68.154.18] has left #lisp 15:37:31 roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:33 Typho [n=add@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:40:25 benreesman [n=ben@ip68-101-196-173.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:19 chris2__ [n=chris@dslb-094-216-204-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:39 *sigh* 15:44:08 pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:27 what's up? 15:44:41 simultaneously bored and overworked. 15:45:09 (1 . 2) <= is the dot a reader macro? 15:45:27 -!- rolly1975 [n=rory@193.108.73.27] has quit [] 15:45:54 Ragnaroek: No, it's a special case in the reader macro #\( 15:46:45 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:46:48 -!- chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-094-216-204-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:48:18 -!- nullwork` [n=kyle@24.245.23.122] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:48:39 nullwork [n=nullwork@24.245.23.122] has joined #lisp 15:49:06 pinterface2 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:54 pinterface3 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:07 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087ABA9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:54:59 beach: sounds like you need some more exciting work :) 15:55:42 isnull_ [i=d0edb2e5@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a033d10009b7f503] has joined #lisp 15:56:30 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 15:56:35 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.69.135] has quit [] 15:56:52 beach: have you written up your Improved Buffer Protocol anywhere? (I do vaguely remember something, but I might be confused). 15:58:04 splittist: I don't think it was written down in any sort of formal way. 15:58:28 splittist: It is mainly the buffer-modification protocol that is broken. 15:58:59 slyrus: definitely. I was thinking of taking a year off and work in industry. 15:59:10 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-26-121.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:12 cool. which one? 15:59:39 slyrus: Doesn't matter really. 16:00:13 beach: you're in a fairly good position now, aren't you? 16:00:19 does anybody know if Alan Bawden has a public email address? 16:00:35 madnificent: Yeah, as high as I will ever get. 16:01:13 beach: you could work for an international institution. There are lots here (; 16:01:21 beach: can't you bend the rules a bit to make it more bearable? 16:01:33 -!- pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:01:34 beach: or for lichtblau 16:01:55 splittist: Sure, that's an idea. They would have to pay me though. 16:02:04 madnificent: I could, but it's not my style. 16:02:14 [bending the rules] 16:02:38 madnificent: For instance, I have colleagues who do 3 hours of teaching per year, and nothing can really be done about it. 16:03:15 beach: it is up to you to reach enough students, its not up to you to do all the work though... 16:03:20 beach: every year? 16:03:26 delegate :) 16:03:37 beach: as I understand it, the international institutions are recession-proof because there are no measurable outputs... 16:04:03 splittist: heh, yes. 16:04:25 tcr: So I have heard yes. 16:05:16 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:05:21 -!- pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:05:25 madnificent: The problem is that theire is a small crowd of people who really care about the quality of our teaching, and those people are getting overworked and losing touch with reality. 16:05:45 *madnificent* is on the other side of the fence :) 16:05:59 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.235.167] has joined #lisp 16:06:33 beach: do you get sensible pay? 16:06:48 p_l: I personally think so, yes. 16:06:57 -!- pinterface3 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:06:57 I can't really say that I'm an overly motivated student either. A lot depends on where and how your personal interests overlap with those of your teachers 16:07:07 pinterface [n=pixel@69.66.202.152] has joined #lisp 16:07:30 beach: then it's not as bad. You might be expected to teach properly while having 3~5 full-time proffessor jobs in different parts of the country :> 16:07:43 madnificent: And on how much the teacher can inspire interest in the subject. 16:07:59 beach: within the first two lessons ;) 16:08:24 the first lesson ;) 16:08:38 Ragnaroek: Before coming to lecture? ;P 16:08:44 p_l: I know I shouldn't complain. 16:10:26 madnificent: at the engineering school, it usually takes at least two lectures before the students are convinced that 1. I know what I am talking about, and 2. what I say might be useful. 16:10:45 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.171.31] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:11:40 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 16:12:13 -!- pinterface2 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:12:37 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:12:58 nothing drops respect for a professor like a failed lecture of "showing us the world outside BlueJ"... 16:15:07 grumps_ [n=grumps@adsl-75-3-90-107.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:07 -!- grumps [n=grumps@adsl-69-209-49-188.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:15:11 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a676dc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-968cf4bdb369d734] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:15:18 beach: Engineers are strange beasts, compared to university people. 16:15:23 Ragnaroek [i=54a676dc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2d76fbaf436d2d95] has joined #lisp 16:15:40 pjb: I know, I am one. Even worked as one for a while. 16:15:50 pjb: and then there's the divide between science/engineering majors and liberal arts? :D 16:15:54 beach: in our university, many professors have a name that stands amongst students. We actively talk about which professor was a good one to listen to etc. That really helps those that know how to teach 16:16:25 madnificent: How does it help them? 16:16:43 students go to the class and actually listen 16:17:36 this year a class was not given by Steegmans and there were people that dropped out of it because of that reason 16:18:10 beach: clearly, it works the other way around too ;) 16:18:58 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-11982.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:19:57 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:20:12 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.245.186] has joined #lisp 16:20:41 Thanks to everyone for helping me fix the boredom. 16:21:19 :-) 16:21:59 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:22:14 p_l: it didn't work... 16:22:46 beach: this is an imperfect world. Will have to try harder :/ 16:23:17 p_l: nah, I think I have to work on this myself. 16:23:53 A nice summer vacation would be a good start. 16:24:12 minion: chant 16:24:12 MORE WINE 16:24:27 beach: maybe getting lost in some hobby? 16:24:33 stassats`: Thanks for reminding me. 16:24:44 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-0-27.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:26:16 p_l: I have a hard time separating work an leisure. Things like working on Gsharp or Climacs are hobbies, except I don't have much time for them. 16:26:54 p_l: But then it is nice when such an activity occasionally leads to a paper getting published. 16:27:25 beach: I'd really like if sbcl's FORMAT implementation would be changed to an implementation which expands format-strings to human readably macro-based code. 16:27:30 beach: what about taking up something that is not directly related to programming and computers? 16:27:34 *p_l* recommends flying 16:28:09 tcr: Like the one I wrote and that tic_ was supposed to write the floating-point printers for? :) 16:28:33 beach: So when I'm starring at a complicated format string, I could just do M-x slime-format-string-expand and it'd pop up a buffer of nicely readable Lisp code. 16:28:44 -!- theoffset [n=ismael@201-167-102-96-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:28:49 p_l: I have a pilot's licence, but it turned into a burden when I had to get so many hours per trimester. 16:29:17 then it would make a nice vacation, IMHO :) 16:29:32 tcr: Nice idea. You should be able to take my format implementation as it is. 16:30:05 beach: That was an invitation for you to direct your boredom to! 16:30:20 tcr: Yeah, I realized that. Thanks. 16:30:32 Just wanted to give your work purpose 16:30:41 tcr: but you missed the "simultaneously overworked" part. 16:32:02 But you must all be bored, given how much energy you are spending trying to solve my problems. 16:32:03 -!- ejs [n=eugen@123-186-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:32:04 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 16:32:16 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 16:32:23 -!- xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has quit [Client Quit] 16:32:42 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 16:32:52 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 16:33:01 You should write MORE CODE instead. 16:33:40 I'm writting 16:34:07 Ragnaroek: Excellent! What are you writing? 16:35:45 I wonder how some people manage to sit on irc and get things done at the same time :| 16:36:09 my master thesis, It has something to do with lisp 16:36:18 mouratov: I have two screens, each one 1600x1200 pixels. :) 16:36:42 Ragnaroek: Are we going to get the code? 16:36:43 but doesn't irc disrupt your workflow? 16:37:17 beach: sure, once it's finished it will be open-source 16:37:29 mouratov: It is disrupted already. I am just doing stupid boring stuff that can be done in intervals of a few minutes, like answering email and such. 16:37:32 *stassats`* is now sitting behind three screens and confusing keyboards 16:37:51 what kind of a project this is, Ragnaroek? 16:38:18 stassats`: but you are not sitting in a maze, about to be eaten by a grue? :) 16:38:49 p_l: i don't think so 16:39:35 I'm trying to come up with a good idea for my own thesis 16:40:09 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-13-192.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:09 mouratov: You want ideas? We have plenty of them! What are you interested int? 16:40:12 *in 16:40:27 I am very interested in compilers and virtual machines 16:40:31 :-P 16:40:33 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-211-162.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:34 Google Web Toolkit, but with Lisp instead of Java 16:40:42 wow, cool! 16:40:43 Parenscript? :) 16:41:07 sounds great, Ragnaroek! 16:41:35 HG` [n=wells@91.108.74.20] has joined #lisp 16:41:39 I'd really like to see it 16:42:13 Be sure to publish not only the code, but also the thesis paper 16:42:16 mouratov: How about writing a library that implements a significant subset of the algorithms in the book by Muchnick in Common Lisp. 16:42:26 I'm trying to get close to CL 16:42:37 the web toolkit thing sounds good 16:42:41 though probably rather difficult 16:42:46 the book by Muchnick? 16:42:51 I think parenscript just lispifies JavaScript 16:43:17 mouratov: http://www.amazon.fr/Advanced-Compiler-Design-Implementation-Muchnick/dp/1558603204 16:43:37 mouratov: Oh, I guess I could have given you a a page in English. 16:43:44 haven't heard of this before 16:44:02 is it availible as a free ebook? 16:44:06 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-3e7550ecb69c5772] has joined #lisp 16:44:09 Not that I know of. 16:44:11 beach: and would this be applicable to any existing lisp compilers, like sbcl? 16:44:22 mouratov: But it is worth every cent. 16:44:44 stassats`: I am afraid I don't know enough about the SBCL compiler to answer that. 16:44:57 Its not the money, which is a problem, beach - 16:45:13 mouratov: what is then? 16:45:13 -!- chris2__ [n=chris@dslb-094-216-204-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:45:23 it will be hard to find this book in Russia 16:45:32 :-) 16:45:39 mouratov: If that's the only problem, I'll mail a copy to you. 16:45:50 http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/1861683/ 16:46:01 thanks, stassats` 16:46:22 5224 rubles! doh 16:46:39 How much is a ruble these days (in Euros)? 16:47:01 5224 Russian rubles = 119.23508 Euros 16:47:03 says google 16:47:08 thanks 16:47:31 mouratov: If you agree to implement a large subset of the algorithms in there and make the code available for free, I'll mail you a book. Deal? 16:47:57 mouratov: (you don't have to make up your mind right away) 16:48:02 I can't agree yet, beach 16:48:10 *stassats`* would buy a book for 120 euros only if it's really really good 16:48:33 the most expensive book I've ever bought was PAIP 16:48:39 stassats`: I would prefer food over payed books right now :) 16:48:43 paid 900 rubles for a used copy 16:49:26 ejs [n=eugen@224-19-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:26 mouratov: that's like what, 20, 25 euros? 16:49:28 mouratov: That book will surely be available in your university's library 16:49:35 and if I knew from the beginning it would be _that good_ , I'd certainly pay the full price 16:49:49 mouratov: If not you could ask them to order it for you. 16:49:54 yes, it is availible there 16:50:33 as I found out later 16:50:35 ;-) 16:50:49 shouldn't amazon deliver to Russia? 16:51:41 I'd first like to take a glance at it, stassats 16:51:45 *beach* goes to fix some dinner. 16:51:50 106 euro is no cheap deal 16:52:01 amazon have always been a bit weird about international delivery 16:52:11 also, I'd try to find a used one on Ebay 16:52:22 i'm interested in general, some books at amazon are way cheaper than on ozon 16:52:30 beach: if you stop teaching, please keep giving these 'food' incentives on #lisp 16:52:41 (but first of all, I'd try to find a pirated ebook) 16:52:44 :-D 16:53:00 -!- rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:53:14 the idea of giving out books in exchange for availability of libraries is quite good :) 16:53:14 they ship to russia, stassats`, but you have to pay with paypal 16:53:27 it should be a verified account 16:53:39 are you allowed to have a paypal account in russia? 16:53:56 oh, that's weird 16:54:03 they won't just take credit/debit card? 16:54:10 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@193.52.24.125] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:54:36 stassats`: russian paypal accounts are limited 16:55:30 stassats`: you're not Russian yourself? 16:55:41 I'm Russian 16:55:45 as you are, perhaps 16:55:59 tcr: i live in russia, yes 16:57:08 wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-144-151.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:28 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:59 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 16:58:18 y 16:58:23 sry 16:58:40 rootzlevel: You're still not enough sorry. 16:58:48 theoffset [n=ismael@189.169.169.212] has joined #lisp 16:58:58 he's not sorry, he's sry 16:59:10 (more economical on vowels) 16:59:32 hey, we need to cut something during the global recession. 17:00:03 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-8b991748be157cc9] has joined #lisp 17:00:08 yeah, traffic is expensive 17:01:04 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.48.233] has joined #lisp 17:01:51 bleh, implementing this guard against the infinite loop problem during fontification is a chore 17:02:15 tcr: it would be more beneficial if you'd solve the halting problem once and for all... 17:02:37 YAGNI 17:03:50 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087ABA9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:53 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 17:04:26 tcr: which one? 17:04:56 stassats`: found the issue. I'm contemplating a good solution (I know the quick fix, but I don't like it :-) 17:05:03 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.48.233] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:05:25 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.48.233] has joined #lisp 17:05:47 ehu`: about yesterday's build failure? 17:05:52 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 17:06:03 about not being able to load slime 17:06:09 right. 17:06:16 the latter. 17:06:24 ah! that's the reason why I wanted to install abcl 17:06:37 well, maybe I should commit the quick fix first. 17:06:38 What's the problem? It's not only ABCL which fails 17:06:49 a bug in Slime is involved, too 17:07:02 now that you're here, you'll be able to test after the commit. 17:07:06 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-11982.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 17:07:12 tcr: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.editors.j.devel/2615 17:07:28 madnificent: I made the fontification of suppressed forms reliable. 17:08:08 i was able to load slime by doing M-x cd to the output directory 17:08:10 stassats`: That's not abcl's mailinglist? 17:08:48 tcr: no, it is 17:09:25 what about armedbear-devel@c-l.net? 17:09:45 ehu`: Btw. abcl's webpage does not mention the mailinglist. 17:10:19 tcr: yea, it needs improvement. I'm looking for more contributers who want to do small tasks like that. 17:10:20 tcr: that's the one linked from cl.net/armedbear 17:10:38 stassats`: Was I blind yesterday? 17:10:56 that i don't know 17:11:02 oh it's there indeed 17:11:33 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:13:02 well, it needs build instructions too. 17:13:07 (the website that is.) 17:14:18 What's the problem you discovered? 17:14:50 the one where abcl tries to load files off a different path than where it wrote them. 17:17:35 Oh I thought the redirection one 17:19:26 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:28 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 17:20:38 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:40 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:24:21 -!- CrazyEddy [n=humerome@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:26:56 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:35 I know about that one but have no idea where to olok 17:31:08 fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EAEDD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:10 It's a bug in Slime itself anyway. It makes the `disconnect' test case fail. 17:31:57 guille_ [n=guille_@106.Red-83-39-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:26 and also, sending sigint to abcl kills it 17:35:17 -!- benreesman [n=ben@ip68-101-196-173.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [] 17:36:13 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 17:36:40 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:49 kinnetica [n=kinnetic@pool-96-231-130-194.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:06 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:06 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:37:55 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 17:39:39 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:40:18 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 17:41:17 -!- m4thias`` [n=user@39.84-48-162.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:42:11 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 17:43:33 Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:44:12 -!- mvatki [n=michael@64.195.172.5] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:45:06 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-40-78.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:45:14 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 17:47:30 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:47:40 pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:16 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 17:50:03 emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:51:46 Could someone please tell my why this returns NIL? (find 'function #(#'(lambda ())) :key #'type-of) 17:52:36 (find 'function (vector (lambda ())) :key #'type-of) 17:53:19 emacsphan: #( supresses evaluation, just like quote does. 17:54:18 very interesting, thank you 17:55:38 I like `#(1 ,x) 17:56:38 -!- isnull_ [i=d0edb2e5@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a033d10009b7f503] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 17:56:59 only if you have small number of objects you want to evaluate 17:57:23 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:58:26 (vector 1 x) 17:58:32 a bit interesting that `#(1 ,@#(2 3 4)) doesn't work, though. 17:58:35 Uhm well it's more like (load-time-value (vector 1 2) t) 17:58:54 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:58:56 Right. 17:59:05 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:07 foom: @ works only on lists? 17:59:55 yep. Even when the thing you're trying to interpolate into is a vector. 18:00:01 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:00:09 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 18:02:36 pjb: And it could be even more different than that. I don't know but perhaps an implementation is even allowed to make it more like (load-time-value (the (vector fixnum) (vector 1 2)) t) 18:02:49 (vector fixnum 2) 18:04:51 -!- pinterface [n=pixel@69.66.202.152] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:07:30 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 18:11:07 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:12:24 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:13:07 -!- kinnetica [n=kinnetic@pool-96-231-130-194.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:14:25 dkcl` [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 18:14:45 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:14:53 -!- dkcl` is now known as dkcl 18:15:06 mib_1xdnuy [i=5505373f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4b924e761f5bc232] has joined #lisp 18:16:48 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:02 -!- emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:18:25 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 18:18:43 -!- mib_1xdnuy [i=5505373f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4b924e761f5bc232] has quit [Client Quit] 18:19:30 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:20:06 -!- stakkr [n=user@85.224.227.17] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:20:39 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 18:20:59 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 18:23:16 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:16 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:25:08 mega1 [n=mega@53d8260a.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 18:26:47 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 18:29:18 -!- pdponze [n=pierre@144.85.124.11] has left #lisp 18:31:46 milanj [n=milan@93.86.115.154] has joined #lisp 18:32:23 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:00 kinnetica [n=kinnetic@pool-96-231-130-194.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:02 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:39:05 stassats`: can't do much about sigint. 18:39:14 -!- topo_ [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:39:21 stassats`: it's what Java does with sigint 18:39:39 any other way to interrupt? 18:40:17 have a second thread, make it call thread.interrupt() on a lispthread. 18:40:18 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:40:52 that sets a variable which is being checked inside all abcl code regularly. 18:41:08 if it encounters it, it breaks out to 18:41:33 i think is the top level, or it's thread terminatino. 18:41:36 termination. 18:41:39 *etate* wonders why people have backtick after their nicks, what happened? 18:41:48 topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has joined #lisp 18:42:01 this behaviour is consistent on all platforms. 18:42:10 etate: I use multiple terminals to log in. 18:42:27 many clients use ` or _ if your nick is already in use 18:42:34 and append that 18:42:39 ahhh, am an IRC noob 18:42:49 etate: often it's configurable :P 18:43:48 it's a new fashion, like plume in the hat 18:43:57 haha 18:44:01 -!- etate is now known as etate` 18:44:11 -!- etate` is now known as ` 18:44:16 heh! 18:44:20 <`> !!! 18:44:41 -!- ` is now known as Guest68561 18:44:46 -!- Guest68561 is now known as etate 18:44:55 It's called macaroni in the rebel provinces... 18:45:53 definitely an IRC noob, typing ` ( , etate ) makes me go invis 18:45:54 I didn't know we had rebel provinces 18:46:04 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 18:47:08 Pegazus_ [n=awefawe@host38.201-253-182.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:48:29 KucukMubasir [n=Halliday@unaffiliated/kucukmubasir] has joined #lisp 18:48:40 -!- KucukMubasir [n=Halliday@unaffiliated/kucukmubasir] has left #lisp 18:48:59 -!- topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:49:48 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- ejs [n=eugen@224-19-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-113.netcologne.de] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- Pegazus [n=awefawe@host38.201-253-182.telecom.net.ar] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@221.Red-79-152-43.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-10-217.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087ABA9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a676dc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2d76fbaf436d2d95] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F3E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.77.122] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@93-34-8-7.ip47.fastwebnet.it] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- mun [n=mun@93-97-172-28.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- aunwork [n=aunwork@mail.ionicsoft.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- guille_ [n=guille_@106.Red-83-39-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- Typho [n=add@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- Axioplase_ [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- t [i=tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- tessier [n=treed@unused-105-40-113.ixpres.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- _dima [i=dima@torch.blackened.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- luis [n=user@r42.eu] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- mouratov [n=mouratov@94.41.31.168.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:51 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:51 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-168-238-252.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:51 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:51 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:51 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:51 -!- ChopperDave [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:51 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-67e370d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:51 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:51 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:51 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:51 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:51 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:50:11 (I mean, I knew about the Basques, the Normands, the Alsacians, the Corsicans, the Welch, the Scots, etc. but those are not places where macaroni is consumed more than elsewhere) 18:50:51 Scots? 18:50:56 I thought the rebel forces were hiding on that snowy planet. 18:51:14 benreesman [n=ben@asa01-ext.utc.backmo.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 Samy [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 mouratov [n=mouratov@94.41.31.168.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-168-238-252.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 ChopperDave [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 mikezor [n=mikael@c-67e370d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 topo_ [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 guille_ [n=guille_@106.Red-83-39-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 Typho [n=add@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 Axioplase_ [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 t [i=tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 tessier [n=treed@unused-105-40-113.ixpres.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 _dima [i=dima@torch.blackened.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 luis [n=user@r42.eu] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087ABA9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 Ragnaroek [i=54a676dc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2d76fbaf436d2d95] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F3E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 mun [n=mun@93-97-172-28.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.77.122] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 dialtone [n=dialtone@93-34-8-7.ip47.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 aunwork [n=aunwork@mail.ionicsoft.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 18:51:25 p_l: "Scottish" might be the proper English name for them. 18:52:04 kami- [n=user@193.218.18.18] has joined #lisp 18:52:06 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:52:10 So I get to call myself a rebel? ;P 18:52:12 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-113.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:52:20 Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 18:52:26 p_l: lucky you! 18:52:32 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 18:52:51 *p_l* recalls someone even got a tartan pattern approved for Poles 18:52:55 ejs [n=eugen@224-19-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:02 i think splittist meant Americans 18:53:19 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:46 Ah, different centuries. 18:53:57 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-10-217.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 18:54:09 the Welsh and Scots are rebel provinces of France? :) 18:54:19 it's from yankee doodle: "stuck a feather in his hat and called it macaroni" 18:54:41 kidd2 [n=kidd@221.Red-79-152-43.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:43 hakona [n=hakona@216-78-153.7003.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 18:54:47 rebel states, anyway, surely, in the case of the US slave states 18:54:58 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:55:00 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:55:01 rsynnott: who knows with all the inbreeding between monarchies in western countries 18:56:53 rsynnott: of Europe of course. We are just one big country now. 18:57:14 -!- hakona [n=hakona@216-78-153.7003.adsl.tele2.no] has left #lisp 18:58:20 beach: I have a feeling that not all western Europe countries like to admit that... 18:58:33 That's their problem. 18:58:46 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:59:34 p_l: My native country being one of the worst. 18:59:38 hey! 19:00:00 tic_: It is true though! 19:00:07 to an extent 19:00:11 In the current polls, I think >50% are positive towards the EUR though. 19:00:13 beach, indeed. 19:00:25 beach: UK doesn't want to be second, either 19:00:34 tic_: Bah, that's because of the crisis. 19:00:53 -!- UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:01:11 beach, most likely, yes. Even the DKK is 1,50 now! 19:01:19 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-211-162.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:01:36 having control of one's own currency turns out to be very useful in dealing with the crisis 19:01:51 roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:53 tic_: As I understand, DKK is tied to the Euro. 19:02:06 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.245.186] has quit [] 19:02:10 beach, yeah, I just realized that a nanosecond ago. So not very surprusingi 19:02:55 rsynnott: In the case of Sweden, they still live in a world where they are the second most important country in the world, after the US, and they can dictate their own monetary policy. 19:03:18 the home of Alfred Nobel and various other Clever People(tm). 19:03:20 sounds like rational self interest 19:03:35 rsynnott: not having to worry about fluctuation in prices for import/export with your closest neighbours also does a lot (a lot of companies heavily lost in Poland because of those changes) 19:03:43 beach: Sweden has always had a slightly delusional opinion of itself 19:04:02 rsynnott: Indeed, yes. 19:04:02 rsynnott, we do have the blondes, though! ;) 19:04:44 rsynnott: and I only realized at which point I had been brainwashed after I started living abroad. 19:05:06 beach: you're from sweden? 19:05:15 dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:16 rsynnott: My passport says so. 19:05:27 General population actually goes along with the official national image, then? 19:05:47 rsynnott, most of us, yeah. 19:05:52 rsynnott: That's another problem I have with Sweden, yes. 19:06:03 bizarre 19:06:07 -!- dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:06:22 (though Ireland sort of had that for the last decade, to an extent) 19:06:30 tic_: Now, where do I go to find brunettes? Everyone in the world is all about the blondes... :P 19:06:45 I think a lot of people were vaguely aware that basing an economy on financial services and construction was dubious, though 19:06:46 Nowadays, I consider the French idea of throwing dead sheep or dirty diapers into the court yard of the relevant ministry to by much more refreshing (so to speak). 19:07:08 We do have some things that add up. Like music export, IKEA, Volvo and Ericson. 19:07:22 beach, you mean Swedes don't speak up for themselves?! 19:07:23 dead sheep? 19:07:25 (that was Ireland's economy, of course, not Swedens) 19:07:38 hefner: indeed, yes. 19:07:45 tic_: absolutely! 19:07:46 dead sheep seems slightly ludicrous 19:07:56 rsynnott, basing an economy on construction, a bad thing? so what else do you base the economy on? 19:07:59 dead sheep? Hell, we need to introduce that in poland ;) 19:08:04 here, we just have nude paintings of the PM :P 19:08:28 lame 19:08:31 mycroft|js [n=jfactor@student167-92.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 19:08:50 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@student167-162.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 19:09:14 indeed; it became controversial largely because the state broadcaster apologised for showing it, then, due to negative public response, apologised for apologising the first time, and showed it again 19:09:23 in spain they throw pig heads at footballers they don't like 19:09:30 Norway seems like nice place, though 19:09:42 gh7d395p169wd: No they don't. 19:09:43 rsynnott, wow! that was a 100% spine-less act. 19:09:57 dkcl: luis figo? 19:10:03 yep, it was a bit ridiculous 19:10:05 p_l, more-or-less like Sweden, actually. 19:10:05 as an acquaintance stated it, with such low population, there's bigger recognition of who fucked up :D 19:10:46 tic_: no, as in at one point something like 15% of the population was employed in construction or dependent industries 19:11:43 *tic_* thinks of the boat industry in Gothenburg... 19:12:06 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:12:26 a lot of anti-EU sentiment at the moment. Most of it unjustified, quite frankly; people have taken offence to the fact that we're now a net donor to the EU 19:12:37 which most of the core countries ALWAYS were, of course 19:13:17 *p_l* main problem with UK is that apparently "transition period" can be indefinite 19:14:18 also, the lisbon treaty referendum failed because the govt failed to anticipate that the opposition would base their campaign on blatant, ridiculous lies 19:14:20 rsynnott: That is one of the main problems I have with the Swedes, i.e., regarding the EU as some kind of (very bad) investment bank. 19:14:27 -!- sepult is now known as Guest17985 19:14:36 and now lots of people believe the lies because the government didn't bother rebutting them 19:14:47 beach, incidently, that is roughly the way I see it. 19:14:49 I think I'll end up registering a company somewhere in Central Europe and stating that I'm working in UK as deputy from international company... 19:15:20 tic_: I am not surprised. You would have to live abroad for some time to see it differently. 19:15:27 (The rather terrifying anti-EU group, which is associated with US right-wing groups, told people that the EU would microchip babies, for instance) 19:15:29 investment bank? now that's an interesting way to view EU 19:15:41 beach, well, maybe that is why -- if you cannot see the benefits where you actually live, how can you be sure there are any? 19:16:28 tic_: I ask my family "how much was it worth to you not to be invaded by Germany in the late 20th century?", but they don't get it. 19:16:44 heh 19:16:56 beach, ah, but there will never be any wars in Europe anymore, so your point is no longer valid! 19:16:59 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Client Quit] 19:17:06 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.48.233] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:17:11 I can see how big of difference it is by walking around in Scotland, seeing all those old buildings... 19:17:22 tic_: But there might very well have been, had it not been for the EU. 19:17:23 tic_: Tell that part about no wars to Russia :P 19:17:32 beach, *lalallala* 19:17:36 LOL 19:18:02 (note - I don't have anything against Russia or Russians. Just neighbourhood jokes :D) 19:18:26 p_l: yeah, yea, like our Norwegian jokes. 19:18:30 beach: a nuclear standoff would have been rather likely, at least among the big nations 19:19:02 (most of the western european nations are effective nuclear powers, in that they could build warheads within a year) 19:19:19 rsynnott: Including Sweden in fact, yes. 19:19:30 rsynnott, but in contrast to, say, Korea or Iran, we wouldn't. Right? 19:19:35 anyone with a functioning nuclear industry, really 19:19:42 (because we're the good guys!) 19:19:50 *sigh* 19:19:56 tic_: nah; being a potential nuclear power is far cheaper and just as effective as being a real one 19:19:58 *laughs* 19:20:08 -!- Typho is now known as add` 19:20:15 tic_: Actually any sensible country will scrap non-proliferation treaties the moment someone bigger started to make moves... 19:20:38 p_l, so we're back to the cold war, only everyone pretends there is no such thing? 19:20:47 tic_: You didn't notice? 19:20:52 Iran and North Korea, on the other hand, do NOT have modern nuclear industries, and their bomb programmes are of the long painstaking variety, similar to the original US/UK noe 19:20:55 *one 19:20:56 p_l, nje? 19:21:09 rsynnott, oh, I thought they did. my bad. 19:21:29 *tic_* notices he no longer knows how to spell, heads for the couch. 19:21:31 and thus they can get to the actual nuclear programme without bothering with developing a nuclear industry 19:21:32 tic_: it's just that weaponry or goals changed. It's more of economic warfare now... 19:22:18 (Israel appears to have done much the same thing, quite effectively; so did South Africa) 19:22:19 some of the "potential" powers are considered actual, because not only can they have nukes in ~1year, they can have full-scale ICBM systems in that time frame 19:22:21 stassats`: you found a tricky one. I'm contemplating the fix. it's not what I thought it was. 19:23:28 projections [n=p@88.235.101.2] has joined #lisp 19:24:29 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:24:38 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student166-199.hampshire.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:25:55 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 19:26:10 I am immensely unnerved by all that military propoganda on Russian TV 19:26:18 as if a war is about to start 19:26:49 well, we're running out of oil and food 19:26:51 ... I shall start lobbying for nuclear build up in Poland, then 19:26:54 p_l: few of them can do that, really; the US, Russia and France (and China, just about) are the only countries to have ever developed independent practical ICBMs 19:27:14 but certainly most could build submarine weapons quickly 19:27:22 rsynnott: Japan is included on the list - they have space-capable delivery systems as well stockpiles of fuel 19:27:30 (source being CIA report) 19:27:34 oh, yep, they could, certainly 19:27:46 *beach* gets increasingly depressed. 19:28:13 mouratov: that's easy, just don't watch TV 19:28:14 lnostdal: what, russia's running out of oil?! 19:28:29 and current thermonuclear warheads are not as heavy as the old-style ones... I remember French Mirage 2000 based system 19:28:34 rsynnott: everyone is 19:28:45 rsynnott, everyone is 19:28:49 we will all die by 2020 (from laghter and radiation sickness) 19:28:49 Russia has IMHO the best position, though 19:28:55 *laughter 19:29:20 russia is doing rather better on the oil front than everybody else, though, surely? 19:29:32 mouratov: So you are saying there is really no point in developing a LispOS (to get back on topic)? 19:29:38 (half of Europe is basically dependent on them for gas supply, terrifyingly) 19:29:40 rsynnott: they have *every* natural resource existing.... 19:30:09 rsynnott: and Western Europe doesn't want to hear about changing supplier or presenting united front in negotiations 19:30:24 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.204.115] has joined #lisp 19:30:28 According to the doomsday theorists the appocalyse will be 21 of december 2012.. 19:30:29 and why not, beach? were the operating systems on lisp machines really that inefficient? 19:30:34 Europe is far too dependent on gas, in any case 19:30:56 (besides France and a couple of others) 19:31:00 So lot's make a LispOS that runs /without/ gas! In fact, let's make it use electricity. 19:31:00 mouratov: no, no, but what's the point of having a good OS if we are all dead? 19:31:10 :-D 19:31:15 heheh 19:31:23 younder: that's just the deadline for change of calendar that Mayans had chosen. They simply decided that by that time they would have better system and resources to rewrite the dates :P 19:31:56 right, and the hopi indians.. 19:32:41 mouratov: I am pretty sure we could write a very efficient LispOS on stock hardware these days. 19:32:43 another option is that they signed some contract with bad consequences for not fulfiling and 2012 is the delivery date... 19:33:49 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 19:34:10 manuel_ [n=manuel@f053213140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:34:44 GrayMagiker [n=steve@97-123-189-76.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:53 beach: do you believe that Movitz approach has any future? 19:34:59 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@f053213140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:35:06 is Common Lisp really suitable for writing operating systems? 19:35:26 mouratov: I think it is *excellent* for that. 19:35:55 well, maybe they wanted to avoid the pending unix epoch overflow :) 19:35:57 mouratov: And I think Movitz is complementary wrt what nyef and myself are thinking of. 19:36:36 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:36:38 You think a new OS could be successful? 19:36:45 no 19:36:48 good evening 19:36:55 hello nikodemus 19:36:56 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.115.154] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:37:01 it should be fun, not necessarily successful 19:37:27 dkcl: If it has *nix compatibility mode, I think yes 19:37:42 p_l: Heh, cool. 19:37:43 I wouldn't think so, after all writing a OS is costly and time consuming. 19:37:55 That's got nothing to do with its success. 19:38:03 younder: you wouldn't think *what*? 19:38:26 That a Lisp OS would be a sucess. 19:38:40 actually, if you manage to deliver something like PlanB that would easily work with stuff people want to have (www, flash, js, audio/video would be enough :P), it would be received nicely 19:38:53 well, we can built it atop of linux or something 19:39:00 younder: I don't get it. You think that it won't be a success because it takes time and money to produce? 19:39:03 It can be a success not as a general purpose operating system, but as an operating system for some particular purposes 19:39:06 On top of a Linux kernel, sure. 19:39:07 stassats`: L4 19:39:09 Being written in Lisp is after not a selling point or 99% or more of OS users 19:39:23 -!- theL00p [n=user@78.33.52.101] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:39:27 success is not a good term 19:39:28 Do it on L4 and reuse L4Linux for drivers till you get enough ported :) 19:40:39 mouratov: then I think it would be a *fantastic* success. 19:41:07 If someone would actually release OpenGenera to open sorce perhaps something usefull could be done with it. 19:41:23 younder: unlikely. 19:42:12 younder: We are much better off with McCLIM+applications on top of a Unix kernel. 19:42:16 indeed 19:42:59 *p_l* would still push for L4+L4Linux approach 19:43:06 operating systems written in C are so 90s ;-) 19:43:15 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:43:21 Operating systems written in Lisp are so 80s. 19:43:25 :-D 19:43:26 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:43:38 C is so 70s 19:43:39 Well, the 80s were more fun, yes. 19:43:49 younder: But of course, that probably won't happen, given that people are much more attached to their personal projects than to making things better for everyone. 19:44:42 beach it doesnt help that mcclim doesn't inspire lots of people to do something for it 19:45:20 also, a lot of effort gets destroyed in failed corporate projects every year... I just heard about Daisy AI assistant that got scrapped in Bell Labs 19:45:23 Well, even so they ocasionally distribute a library or two to the public domain. 19:45:24 xristos: I think it's the other way around, actually. Whenever someone tries to make things progress, it becomes a fad to shit all over it. 19:45:28 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:46:09 what could be the perfect market niche for a lisp os nowadays? 19:46:22 mouratov: embedded 19:46:24 yeah 19:46:31 beach: i dont see anyone shitting all over mcclim 19:46:38 -!- guille_ [n=guille_@106.Red-83-39-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:46:43 xristos: You must be blind! 19:46:47 i see lots of indifference but i think thats normal 19:47:27 xristos: There is this guy, named Kenny Tilton, who has done a pretty good job, and who has a large audience. 19:47:50 actually I think he hasn't said anything much in the last few years 19:47:56 what about kenny 19:48:09 -!- pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:48:09 its not as if his shit dont stink 19:48:13 did you try to use cello ? 19:48:20 pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:22 what so great about clim? can someone explain? 19:48:24 Krystof: Probably only because nobody has brought it up. 19:48:33 how is it better than gtk\qt bindings 19:48:34 *ehu`* did; cello doesn't work 19:48:42 is it more "lispy" ? 19:48:43 :-) 19:48:52 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 19:48:57 turtles all the way down? 19:49:15 mouratov: Sure, thanks for asking. It is totally different from other GUI toolkits, in that it has a command loop as opposed to an event loop, so you are not a slave of "event-driven programming". 19:49:24 beach: my problem with mcclim is the emphasis on X11 as the stable backend 19:49:33 windows is not support at all 19:49:49 so it might as well not exist as far as i'm concerned 19:49:53 mouratov: In addition, it is based on a concept called "presentations" which turns out to be essential to preserving the modularity of your application. 19:49:58 i think this applies to a lot of other ppl aswell 19:50:04 xristos: it runs on windows, though 19:50:30 stassats`: when connected to an X terminal, i suppose? 19:50:35 even supporting X11 was a mistake 19:50:42 mcclim should have been written on top of opengl 19:50:47 and run everywhere, feel and look the same 19:50:48 ehu`: using x server, like xming 19:50:58 Can't McClim run under Gnome? Gnome can run under windows.. 19:51:00 xristos: How can it have been "a mistake" to write *anything*? 19:51:00 pestov got the right idea with his ide for factor 19:51:02 beach: interesting, i will investigate into clim then 19:51:08 right. ok. thanks. I wondered about that for quite some time. 19:51:13 even today, UIs in opengl are problematic 19:51:15 beach: mcclim is a portable implementation? 19:51:15 xristos: this is exactly the kind of attitude that I am referring to. 19:51:31 let alone ten years ago or so when people started working on mcclim in ernest 19:51:41 xristos: When someone tries to make things progress, it is considered a "mistake". 19:51:43 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-025-060.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:48 beach: i am giving you arguments though 19:51:53 run the factor ide 19:51:55 run mcclim 19:51:57 tell me i'm wrong 19:52:02 xristos: what arguments? 19:52:19 xristos: You are telling me that writing McCLIM was a mistake! 19:52:27 that focusing on X11 instead of something portable was a misake 19:52:28 labeling things as "bad" and "good" isn't arguments 19:52:54 xristos: OpenGL and windows doesn't necessarily mix well... 19:53:00 xristos, that's just the backend, though. 19:53:08 xristos, feel free to write your own. 19:53:08 xristos: You can just ignore that it exists! How can McCLIM with an X11 emphasis be worse than no McCLIM? I don't get it! 19:53:19 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:21 there's no stable platform to build anything on. operating systems are quicksand. ten years ago, we linux users didn't even have usable opengl. some of us still don't. 19:53:35 beach i am not saying mcclim shouldnt exist 19:53:38 ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@88-108-33-216.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:39 (it might also amuse you to learn that originally there _was_ a mcclim opengl backend. No-one cared enough to maintain it) 19:53:39 beach, maybe xristos believes McCLIM is tied closely to X11? 19:53:45 i am saying there are reasons its not popular and doesn't attract developers 19:53:47 X11 is probably the most stable and most portable interface one could target 19:53:50 also, x11 is portable 19:53:54 tic_ its not tied to X11 in theory 19:53:55 xristos: Essentially you are. 19:53:57 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Success] 19:54:00 in practice its all about x11 19:54:07 but apart from those basic mistakes in your statements, you are completely right! 19:54:08 xristos, how? 19:54:17 the opengl backend is abandoned and x11 is considered the stable one 19:54:21 xristos: in practice, it's about something that works with minimal developer effort 19:54:21 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:36 xristos, there's much more to McCLIM than its backend. 19:54:50 tic_: i know 19:54:55 you don't have to convince me 19:55:00 well then? 19:55:04 hello. 19:55:04 you have to convince the rest of the world 19:55:07 this is why we can't have nice things 19:55:08 and you are not doing it 19:55:12 If there were developers interested, motivated *and* determined, we would have to build three at least three different backends just to support "current" systems 19:55:16 that sounds like whining 19:55:36 portable X11, Windows, OSX, + OpenGL :) 19:55:56 p_l or you could do what factor does 19:56:07 xristos: And I think this kind of attitude is devastating to Lisp. Instead of recognizing what is positive in what people do, we need to make sure that it is considered as useless. 19:56:09 it works well enough for me on all 3 oses 19:56:11 xristos: not work properly on linux, you mean? 19:56:32 xristos: what does it use for graphics interface? 19:56:42 p_l: It uses opengl, but it is broken on linux :) 19:56:44 beach: recognising the positive is one thing 19:56:55 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:56:56 continuing down the same road that leads to a deadend is another 19:57:10 i don't see mcclim working 19:57:13 Oh, so it's broken on all windows machines that I care enough to work on? 19:57:16 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:17 maybe it will, and i hope it does 19:57:27 xristos: when I use the factor UI, the text periodically gets scrambled and I have to restart it, particularly when I resume from suspend on my laptop. this is not what I would describe as "robust" 19:57:30 but i won't be contributing because i don't believe in it 19:57:31 mcclim has stopped working? 19:57:34 thats all i'm saying 19:57:41 less talk, more code 19:57:47 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:57:48 minion: chant 19:57:49 MORE CODE 19:57:49 that's all i'm saying 19:57:50 "let's talk, not code" ;) 19:57:53 xristos: No, you don't understand, but I am not going to try to repeat to you why I think you don't. 19:57:54 manuel_ [n=manuel@f053213140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:58:08 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:17 why find so many programmes lisp disgusting? 19:58:34 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:58:36 on Windows, OpenGL is bad idea. On Linux, you are bound to have problems with multi-display... 19:58:44 hefner: blame linux & the state of things with opengl, drivers, companies whatever 19:58:48 why even focus on linux 19:58:48 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:58:48 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:58:50 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:58:51 speaking of more code, I recently built a CL irc bot with cl+ssl, cl-irc, local-time, cl-ppcre and drakma. Was very, very easy :D 19:58:55 its a non platform for me 19:58:55 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:58:58 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:58:58 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:03 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:59:04 xristos: I don't want to blame anyone, I want something that works. It is my primary platform. 19:59:07 beach: i dont see anyone shitting all over mcclim 19:59:08 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:10 =D 19:59:11 omg [n=oke@bas2-ottawa23-1096709609.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:59:16 unless you are asking actual answerable questions, or answering those questions properly, pontificating on irc should be limited to at most 1 line per 10 lines of lisp code written that day -- preferably 1:100, even 19:59:20 -!- antgree1 [n=Anthony@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 19:59:21 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:59:36 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:59:36 apply or funcall -> can one of these have an implemtation dep. limit in args / length of arglist? 19:59:36 nikodemus: what about lines deleted? 19:59:38 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:59:42 nikodemus: That's a very good guideline. I will start living by that. 19:59:43 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:59:43 xristos: Why are you so worked up about something that is not for you. Just ignore it! 19:59:44 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:46 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:59:46 7 files changed, 14 insertions(+), 26 deletions(-) 19:59:46 xristos: Linux is the only platform where I have working OpenGL. On Windows, OpenGL is *bad* idea as it breaks display model into compatibility mode 19:59:48 those count double, of course :) 19:59:48 -!- omg [n=oke@bas2-ottawa23-1096709609.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [K-lined] 20:00:06 beach: i'm not worked up about this, just trying to explain my pov 20:00:07 clhs call-arguments-limit 20:00:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_call_a.htm 20:00:13 athasm [n=oke@bas2-ottawa23-1128732565.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:00:24 trebor_home: that's the limit 20:00:26 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:00:30 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:00:39 xristos: That is not quite true though. You seem to have some stake in this, yet, it is not something for you. 20:00:53 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:00:54 what stake could i possibly have 20:00:57 nikodemus: Re: Bug #316066 (read-write locks): Do you know that pkhuong got some? 20:01:06 yes 20:01:20 xristos: I don't know, but you keep arguing about it as if you did, yet, it is not something for you. 20:01:38 really, if you want something shiny and portable, I think you should render bitmaps in memory and have a very thin layer to talk to the native window system. that's guaranteed to look the same everywhere, at least, and isolated from iffy 3D drivers. 20:01:42 tomaw [i=tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 20:01:44 stassats`: thanks, i somehow remembered there was sth 20:01:46 Pricey [i=pricechi@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.pricechild] has joined #lisp 20:01:48 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:01:49 can someone remind me what " #' " does again, I know its in reference to functions. Does it just mean "treat this as an atom, not a function call" ? 20:01:50 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:01:51 "Ragnaroek: why find so many programmes lisp disgusting?" 20:01:52 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:01:53 sjbach: what i want is more CL developers, bigger community 20:01:57 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:01:57 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:02:03 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:02:03 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:02:09 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:02:11 clhs #' 20:02:11 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhb.htm 20:02:14 -!- athasm [n=oke@bas2-ottawa23-1128732565.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Killed by tomaw ()] 20:02:17 xristos: and you think rejecting what others do is going to get there? 20:02:17 specbot: thanks 20:02:19 err stassats` 20:02:24 athasm [n=oke@bas2-ottawa23-1128732565.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:02:24 its hard attracting users and i don't see mcclim helping 20:02:31 thats my only stake 20:02:39 xristos: And you are doing your part to make it happen? 20:02:47 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 20:02:48 i try 20:02:49 -!- Guest17985 [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-113.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:02:54 xristos: and what is your proposed course of action? 20:02:55 -!- athasm [n=oke@bas2-ottawa23-1128732565.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [K-lined] 20:02:55 xristos: yeah, right! 20:03:01 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@ip-80-226-16-92.vodafone-net.de] has joined #lisp 20:03:14 wtfm8 [n=oke@bas2-ottawa23-1096709202.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:03:16 ?DCC SEND "ff???f?" 0 0 0 20:03:16 -!- wlr [n=walt@65.96.92.150] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:03:16 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:03:16 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:03:16 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:03:16 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 20:03:16 -!- ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:03:17 beach: what do you mean by that ? 20:03:21 xristos, do you believe spending time on popular toolkits such as GTK/Qt would make Lisp more popular? 20:03:21 killing off mcclim will make the community grow? :) 20:03:23 wtfm8: go away 20:03:27 ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:03:30 i dont contribute to mcclim but there are other ways to contribute to lisp 20:03:30 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:03:31 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@f053213140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 20:03:32 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:35 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 20:03:35 -!- wtfm8 [n=oke@bas2-ottawa23-1096709202.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 20:03:38 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:44 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:03:48 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-113.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:03:49 xristos: I am afraid you wouldn't understand. 20:03:51 tic_ no 20:03:58 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:59 i am not advocating gtk/qt here 20:03:59 xristos: So what is your suggestion for us that love mcclim? 20:04:08 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:04:08 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:08 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:09 scrap X11, rewrite it on top of opengl 20:04:13 or even those of us in a marriage of convenience 20:04:20 xristos, X11 is more than the graphics. 20:04:28 xristos: Go ahead and do it! 20:04:29 nikodemus: is progv-type-checking a new sbcl test? 20:04:29 opengl for mostly textual interface? 20:04:34 xristos: I have not seen opengl being a good way to do these things. :) 20:04:43 xristos: If you are going to use OpenGL, you will still need all that X11 stuff :) 20:04:48 stassats` yes whats wrong with it 20:04:57 xristos, ahh, you want swooshyness? 20:05:01 xristos: I personally don't know enough of OpenGL to do that. Does that mean I shouldn't have written what I did? 20:05:03 p_l only on linux 20:05:05 nikodemus: if so, are you aware that it doesn't in fact pass? 20:05:19 beach: you seem to take everything i say personally 20:05:24 (because you're not in a package where WITH-TEST is defined, I presume) 20:05:31 Does opengl even work if one uses the vesa driver for Xorg? just curious here. 20:05:36 oops, let me check 20:05:48 xristos: So we are back to writing support for all the stuff you would have to write even if you didn't use OpenGL. Shiny. I think I'll keep to my secret plans of McCLIM-over-WPF... ooops 20:05:51 schme: not for me 20:05:54 xristos: No, but your attitude is typical, and its only consequence is to kill off initiative. 20:06:00 p_l if slava can do it (1 person) 20:06:07 beach: sorry. You have to scrap all your mcclim projects, you have been making the lisp community shrink by writing 'em :) 20:06:10 i did it for my own listener 20:06:12 good for him 20:06:20 schme: yeah, sorry about that. 20:06:23 -!- ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@88-108-33-216.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Operation timed out] 20:06:25 xristos: but factors opengl UI is severely broken on linux. 20:06:36 p_l: what's this Daisy AI assistant? I can't find it on google. 20:06:45 schme: so ? 20:06:59 hefner: it was never published. Daisy was the name the stable version was referred to 20:07:03 it works on windows and osx (i cant verify its brokenness on linux as i dont use linux) 20:07:05 Krystof: oops, will fix 20:07:13 xristos: shows that opengl is not a good way to go with these things. 20:07:18 hefner: Voice-controlled telephone assistant :) 20:07:24 schme: i disagree 20:07:43 schme: all it shows is that it doesnt work on linux (if you say so) which could be for a variety of reasons 20:07:50 unless you know for sure what the reason is 20:07:57 what i don't get is people bitching about what other people are or aren't doing -- especially in relation to open source projects 20:08:10 xristos: Right. Well I really don't know. but from what I also have encountered opengl apps break on multihead. 20:08:15 nikodemus: exactly! 20:08:16 xristos: well, it means that your claim of three-platform portability is in fact false 20:08:40 xristos: I think if mcclim is interesting for windows and osx users, maybe they will fix something. If not.. well who cares really. 20:08:46 Krystof: it could be false if indeed it doesnt work on linux 20:08:49 xristos: It's not like anyone cares about those platforms :) 20:08:51 i withdraw it anyway 20:09:04 however, x11 is known to work on windows and os x 20:09:21 (as well as linux, and of course other OSes too) 20:09:21 schme: if it worked well on windos and osx it would attract more users and developers 20:09:28 Has anyone attempted a Windows backend (your toolkit of choice) for McCLIM, by the way? 20:09:29 thats my point 20:09:35 nikodemus: What *I* don't get, is how people can *possibly* have negative opinions about *anyone* giving away the result of their work for free, even though they consider it totally useless. 20:09:38 does that suggest that you should in fact withdraw your entire argument? 20:09:45 tic_: yes, there's a graphics-forms backend 20:09:48 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 20:09:51 beach: this is ridiculus 20:09:58 just because its opensource, i cant have an opinion 20:10:09 You can, but it's wortless. :-) 20:10:16 to you maybe it is 20:10:24 thanks for letting me know 20:10:32 lol 20:10:36 xristos: But it does work well on windows and osx, doesn't it? 20:10:36 It will continue to be until you do something about it, e.g. write those ports. 20:10:41 it's non-constructive 20:10:44 beach: Uhm these people could devote their energy into projects that are more relevant to your personal tasks. 20:11:15 tcr: what people? 20:11:26 nikodemus: fear of the future. fear that the present situation will change and subvert current plans, or things will evolve in a way not to your preference. 20:11:27 beach: who work on projects you consider useless 20:12:00 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 20:12:08 xristos: "I am not interested" is not the same class of opinion as "you guys have actively sabotaged the growth of lisp" 20:12:09 xristos: What is stopping you from writing a neato opengl backend for mcclim? 20:12:15 the burden of proof is different 20:12:41 Krystof i never said that 20:12:43 tcr: Oh, I think I see what you mean. People observe others putting lots of energy into a project they find *really nice*, but since it's not your cup of tea, you had better shit all over that project, in the hopes of getting those people to work on *your* project instead? 20:12:43 Krystof: Did he really say that? 20:13:22 honestly you guys i have better things to do with my time than sitting here trying to face this barrage of accusations 20:13:38 haha 20:13:43 aww 20:13:45 I don't. 20:13:45 xristos, so what was the point you were trying to make again? 20:13:56 xristos: Oh, that would be real nice! Like writing a McCLIM substitute. I can't wait! 20:13:58 It's lost in the accusations and ramblings. 20:13:59 tic you can scroll back read everything from the beginnig 20:14:13 beach said ppl are shitting on mcclim 20:14:18 i replied all i see is indifference 20:14:22 and explained my pov 20:14:23 thagts all 20:14:42 tic_: I followed from the beginning, and I still can't figure it out, or whether everyone unfairly jumped on xristos or not. IRC conversations evolve chaotically. 20:15:04 hefner, yeah, exactly. :) 20:15:10 xristos: I think running on top of opengl would be terribly bad. Would get messed up on dual head on linux platforms. X11 seems better 'cause it just works :) 20:15:20 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-025-060.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:15:32 schme: thats a valid point if you focus on linux 20:15:37 and I'm not sure it would work without some opengl fancy videocard.. would it? 20:15:37 I agreed that all I saw was indifference, until there was this bizarre criticism of historical decisions and saying that if only we'd used OpenGL all this time then the lisp community would be so much bigger 20:15:41 -!- gh7d395p169wd is now known as gh7d395pi69wd 20:15:53 beach: You appear very oversensitive about mcclim since a few weeks. 20:15:55 hefner: I think I reacted when I saw "supporting X11 was a mistake". 20:16:04 xristos: Not really. you can run an Xserver on windows or osx. 20:16:16 on solaris, i believe 20:16:43 tcr: I have no particular personal stake in it, but I think the attitude against it that I see is devastating to everyone. 20:16:53 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-025-060.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:55 xristos: and focusing on linux does seem to be the norm. I mean look at sbcl development and so. I don't think anyone can be bothered to actually care about windows 'cause of the 3 people using it for lisping :) 20:17:22 It's like me demanding tcr to port SLIME to Vim. ;) 20:17:24 maybe thats why theres 3 people using it for lisping 20:17:24 there's a clear chicken-and-egg issue about supporting any platform that isn't currently supported 20:17:25 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:17:26 beach: It seems to me that you begin to see that bad attitude where none is. 20:17:30 -!- deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:17:39 -!- sellout [n=greg@63.107.91.105] has quit [] 20:17:50 deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:18:23 xristos: Perhaps. But if someone is interested in it enough they will do the work. I don't see how that makes supporting X11 a bad idea. It seems a very good idea. 20:18:46 tcr: Not quite, but I know from experience that people with no attitude are easy to influence, so I feel I have to counter arguments that are not necessarily intentionally negative. 20:19:23 just to make things clear 20:19:32 i am not trying to influence anyone stop work on mcclim 20:19:32 xristos: and I'm still wondering. do you not need fancy videocards for opengl on windows too? 20:19:47 mostly i was trying to let beach know how i see things 20:19:48 *schme* has no idea about opengl :) 20:19:53 xristos: but you might be having that effect anyway, despite your intentions. 20:20:36 didn't someone already do a qt4 bindings for lisp? 20:20:37 I think there's little wish because most of people working on open source lisps usually use *nix-based system, while if they really need good support for Windows, it's usually for commercial app for which they can afford LW or ACL... 20:20:52 foom: there are even two different! :D 20:21:23 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 20:21:24 tcr: Plus, in the past few weeks, I have had some very great experiences with McCLIM, doing stuff that would be much harder to do with anything else, so I now feel more than ever, that it is a great accomplishment, not by me, but by hefner, moore33, Athas, etc. 20:21:30 p_l exactly so where is the incentive for them to use lisp on windows 20:21:55 schme: on windows you better avoid OpenGL, as it causes display switching on current systems (OpenGL conflicts with DWM) 20:22:06 p_l: oh really? I only saw one 20:22:22 p_l: ok. I have no idea what that means. Sounds like a bad thing for mcclim then. 20:22:22 foom: There's CommonQT and cl-smoke 20:22:42 beach: i am not belittling anyone accomplishments here 20:22:48 i've used code from mcclim myself 20:22:50 schme: DWM is the display server in NT6 and it happens that it uses 3D system for drawing everything :D 20:23:05 sometimes the technical details don't really matter though 20:23:10 p_l: I see. 20:23:12 its the presentation 20:23:16 yess, this is the part that everyone hug eachother ;) 20:23:39 I thought webUI was the way to go to attract all the kids anyway? 20:23:49 xristos: so calling something a "mistake" is not considered a negative opinion? 20:23:57 schme: they're too busy playing with django and rails 20:24:03 schme: Old-style GDI simply painted into graphic memory of the card (famous windows-style display problems when app was busy or broken) 20:24:10 beach: it is a negative opinin 20:24:24 but from the point of view of trying to attract new users & developers 20:24:25 nikodemus: I just committed a guard against the infinite loops during fontification. 20:24:28 for the things a UI needs to do (mostly textured drawing, and polygons of various sorts, yes?), you could define a thin layer that could be targeted to both OpenGL and D3D without much effort, provided you can resist the urge to do fancy 3D things in "user" code 20:24:31 p_l: Hmm. ok.. I haven't used windows much since 2.0, but I can't say I ever saw many display problems :S 20:24:54 *schme* shrugs. 20:24:57 it's all good. 20:25:00 stakkaboy [n=user@c-9de3e055.31-4-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:25:11 xristos: OK, so "a mistake" is not a belittling? 20:25:30 look i explained i am not talking about the technical merrits of mcclim 20:25:36 hefner: I believe a WPF backend for McCLIM would be a great thing, as it also allows direct access to various other stuff (like printing) 20:25:39 I think I'll stay in the "don't care about attracting users" camp. 20:26:03 it's like all the crazy people trying to attract people to unix by making KDE shiney. 20:26:49 manuel__ [n=manuel@f053213140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:26:52 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 20:27:02 schme: oddly, they have the effect of driving me away 20:27:11 schme: And making *nix broken? ;) 20:27:13 I don't think making mcclim availible on windows w/o the X will make the lisp community grow. 20:27:22 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@f053213140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:27:25 ah yes. 20:27:29 HET3 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 20:27:34 *beach* agrees with schme 20:27:34 schme: no ? 20:27:54 xristos: Not really. I can't see the logic in it. 20:27:55 you would have a full CL environment/editor/ide/debugger running on windows 20:27:57 we need killer apps! 20:27:58 schme: I think showing that "yes, you don't have to be a wizard or pay a lot to get native-looking GUI" would attract some people... 20:28:03 haven't seen anything better than what qt offers, in its entirety 20:28:13 beach: I believe in that you can use McClim as a great tool to help you solve your problems. But I also believe in what hefner said yesterday, or perhaps today, that pretty much none else would be able to make use of it. 20:28:15 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a676dc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2d76fbaf436d2d95] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 20:28:15 -!- HET3 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Client Quit] 20:28:17 never done guis with mcclim 20:28:28 p_l: I think maybe qt bindings is better there ? 20:28:29 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:28:38 schme: maybe. We'll see 20:28:55 there was proposition of making Qt4.5 backend for McCLIM ;P 20:28:55 tcr: I consider that to be their problem. 20:29:13 tcr: I think that's unwise 20:29:15 no, wait 20:29:18 beach: I think that's unwise 20:29:24 I must admit I don't understand people at all. I can't see how fancy GUI stuff would attract people. But I guess maybe it will work. 20:29:29 hefner, me too! I haven't been happier since I switched to StumpWM, as a matter of fact. Swoosh just gets in the way. 20:29:59 schme, there's a difference between user/consumer and a user/producer, specifically those who work with text, and care about performance. 20:30:03 schme: I'm thinking in general of making User Interfaces. Not "fancy GUI stuff" :) 20:30:07 because that means that we mcclim users have a too-large codebase that too few people understand, where fixes don't happen in a timely fashion and it becomes difficult to know what should work 20:30:17 tcr: At least, I will in no way consider it to be a "mistake" to have written McCLIM the way it is just because there might be other people who don't know how to use it. 20:30:18 tic_: Sure. I don't understand 'em at all. 20:30:38 see also: your students doing things that _should_ work by the spec but in fact doesn't, or doesn't in the version that you have, or doesn't if you use the wrong top-level function 20:30:39 -!- mycroft|js [n=jfactor@student167-92.hampshire.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:30:52 that is a barrier in the way of actually doing stuff 20:30:53 manuel__ [n=manuel@f053213140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:30:55 schme: I'm convinced the evolution of the linux UIs last ten years has been entirely driven by the motivation of getting nice reviews written on the web by linux dabblers, who then move on and never run the thing again :) 20:31:02 p_l: Ok.. It seems to me that Qt and GTK are the popular ones, so maybe that is what is needed to attract them people. I dunno really. I couldn't understand those. 20:31:05 and it should be removed, but we simply don't have the manpower 20:31:12 beach: Oh I think that was more meant like it's a great existing tool infrastructure but it lacks the one, or two actual applications that would have helped the project to smooth out rough edges. 20:31:14 it helps having a good looking ui instead of a butt ugly one. the initial learning phase is a lot easier on new users 20:31:19 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 20:31:33 Krystof: I have never said that McCLIM is without problems, but I can never admit that it was a "mistake" based on those arguments. 20:31:34 Krystof: Yes rough edges like that 20:31:59 beach: I was specifically addressing that it is _their problem_ that they can't use it 20:32:06 The only one who talks about that it's a mistake is you 20:32:06 it may be, but it is _also_ our problem 20:32:11 Hrm, isn't there a canonical McCLIM repos? 20:32:14 hefner: It is a very odd spiral. Then you get people very much into making it look "pretty" and behave like windowsxp and at the same time explaining to people that "linux is not windows". And man pages get worse every year. 20:32:18 *schme* mutters. 20:32:24 tcr: no, that was xristos actually. 20:32:32 tcr: Oh, you are saying McCLIM needs work? Sure, I agree. 20:32:33 schme, man pages? when there's HTML? Heathen! 20:32:38 tcr: that's absolutely not true 20:32:39 (: 20:32:42 12:50:35 even supporting X11 was a mistake 20:32:53 schme: I was thinking lately of starting a distro oriented towards old-style people :D 20:32:59 slackware? 20:33:05 schme: No not this way :) 20:33:13 punchcard? 20:33:15 Just out of interest - in present implementation, does everything stop while the SBCL garbage collector runs? 20:33:16 LOL 20:33:39 Krystof: I don't think that says that mcclim as such was a mistake; in fact he repeated that he likes its technological merits. 20:33:42 p_l, what's wrong with Ubuntu and your own desktop environment (if any)? 20:33:50 Modius_: yes, but not everything is collected all at once, so it's a fairly minimal stop 20:33:51 the strange thing about mcclim is that while I imagine a successful system growing bottom up around a working core, mcclim seemed to start from a random scattering of points in the clim specification and slowly grew to connect them and fill the gaps 20:34:02 schme: I was thinking of moving *forward*, but in *nix style. Including lots of parts from Plan9, which even if already implemented in Linux, are not used for various reasons 20:34:25 dlowe: Thanks. I was interested in the atomicity in any finalize/weak-hash-table actions more than the delay itself. 20:34:32 tic_: ubuntu relies on many parts I'd rather remove :) 20:34:51 p_l: I see.. old style forward. :S But sounds interesting! 20:34:53 jfactor [n=jfactor@student167-92.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 20:34:54 (and which, in fact, I have only because X.Org will have broken dependencies if I remove it) 20:35:01 p_l: like hal? 20:35:08 p_l, now that you mention it, you're right. there's a lot of HAL stuff I don't understand the purpose of. 20:35:15 yes, like Hal, PolicyKit and ConsoleKit 20:35:19 Krystof: I uploaded binaries for {sparc,alpha,mipsel,powerpc}-linux to frs.sourceforge/net:uploads/ 20:35:38 excellent. Can you not use the web interface of doom? 20:35:39 hefner: It was like that from the start. gilberth had an implementation of regions and transformations, and Mike McDonald had a more horizontal implementation to get the address-book demo going. 20:35:50 p_l: well, i tend to not care anymore about such things 20:35:57 if they work 20:36:09 p_l: I hate that stuff! I feel like the operating system is eroding beneath me. They keep changing things, I don't understand how it works anymore, and vent angrily instead of catching up, because I know they'll just change it again next year. 20:36:39 stassats`: I tend to care because I found it rather hard to make Hal work like *I* want. which means slight changes in some places without which I can't work 20:36:40 hefner, so don't? it's dark in the box as long as it's labelled "bash" 20:36:50 hefner, (I share your concerns though) 20:37:02 tic_: those parts are related to stuff that happens before launching shell, quite often 20:37:08 stassats`: found a suitable solution. will commit in a minute. 20:37:16 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 20:37:16 p_l: yeah, that's what i meant "if they work" 20:37:19 Krystof: I get "permission denied" on some pages. Which one is it that I should use? 20:37:40 p_l, do I need to care? 20:37:46 the "Downloads" page from "Admin", I think 20:37:48 tic_: that doesn't help when their friendly automatic bullcrap does things like bringing up the wrong network interfaces, replacing my /etc/resolv.conf with god knows what, and putting up a struggle when I try to fix things 20:38:21 stassats`: I've got really iffied when I restarted X server only to find myself without input devices. *any* input devices. Having them configured in xorg.conf 20:38:25 you don't have to use those tools 20:38:34 Krystof: can't access the admin page 20:38:40 guaqua: As X.Org shows, they'll feed them to you :) 20:38:41 hefner, `chattr +i /etc/resolv.conf` is your friend :) / :( 20:39:06 well, I can't see your files 20:39:11 so I will just have to give you more permissions 20:39:13 hefner, indeed there is too much luser-friendlyness going on. 20:39:16 p_l: new xorg sucks, granted. generally its only got better, though 20:39:49 hefner: I rather like the resolvconf system, except the name. 20:40:06 (for me it's not the "Admin" page, it's a drop-down "Downloads" entry from the "Project Admin" tab of buttons at the top of the default sbcl page. You might need to press the "More" button/link before it shows that thing to you 20:40:08 stassats`: done. 20:40:09 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@f053213140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 20:40:15 guaqua: also, some of those new standard tools (championed mostly by ubuntu and fedora, it seems) are plainly broken... At the only time networkmanager could be of any use to me, I found on their page "no we will *never* support that" :) 20:40:17 ehu`: ok, will try 20:40:29 mega1: in theory you already have "release tech" permissions 20:40:47 dlowe: I don't even know these things exist. I just update my system, things change underneath me, and I'm left wondering where I should've been reading to follow along with the changes. 20:40:52 p_l: i only use debian's /etc/network/interfaces and wpa_supplicant 20:40:55 works fine 20:40:56 -!- HG` [n=wells@91.108.74.20] has quit [Client Quit] 20:41:04 guaqua: As how it should have been done, I fondly remember mandrake back in time I was still using it. UserFriendly with all the power available to you 20:41:07 configurable through 2 plain text files 20:41:09 Krystof: Isn't that web interface of doom not reason enough to move to c-l.net? Wouldn't such a move mean that you could mostly automate the release process? 20:41:26 if clnet weren't down that day, sure 20:41:46 guaqua: Oh, that's how I do it now. I'm planning of writing my own interface manager, though, due to some weirdness in my network config and wish to automate it :) 20:42:00 p_l: nnnngh :) 20:42:01 wasn't xorg talking about removing the X11 bitmap fonts recentishly? I'm surprised they haven't discarded the X11 protocol itself, seeing as they're in bed with the desktop mafia and have no use for "legacy" applications. 20:42:09 debian's system isnt enough? :> 20:42:30 guaqua: I'm not on Debian - my only config file for interfaces is wpa_supplicant :D 20:42:46 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.115] has joined #lisp 20:42:47 that tells :) 20:42:48 -!- tomaw [i=tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has left #lisp 20:43:16 it has its own barrier of entry and its own syntax language, but it actually works for most use cases 20:43:16 Krystof: there's also nongnu.org 20:43:28 guaqua: I know, I've been using Debian for some time :) 20:44:10 yep. dunno if ubuntu's network manager (damager) uses the same interfaces or does it invent its own wheel 20:44:37 guaqua: it's own wheel, complete with spikes and square shape 20:45:01 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:45:13 attached with duct tape 20:46:54 there's a problem to be solved concerning hal and luser-controlled networking. ubuntu seems to have solved it by inventing network control separately from the classic debian network control 20:47:21 Actually it does write to the usual configuration files 20:47:21 I've heard that wicd is nice 20:47:27 guessing it's mostly a social decision, but it still suckse 20:47:39 Jabberwockey: oh, okay 20:47:47 then i could be way off 20:48:24 For instance 20:48:37 jens@voyager:~$ cat /etc/resolv.conf 20:48:37 # Generated by NetworkManager 20:48:37 nameserver 192.168.1.1 20:48:45 beach: given that history, there's a weird feeling about the system, where there are gaps in the implementation, half-finished features like accepting values elevated to positions where in a more organically evolved system they would be avoided until they were usable 20:49:28 Krystof: I have access to this: 20:49:28 https://sourceforge.net/project/admin/editpackages.php?group_id=1373, 20:49:28 but not this: 20:49:28 https://sourceforge.net/project/admin/platform_edit.php?group_id=1373 20:49:56 Jabberwockey: resolv.conf is not part of any distros config system, but nsswitch database. It *has* to write to it to do anything 20:50:20 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:50:22 And I figure they didn't bother with adding D-Bus API to nsswitch ;-) 20:50:40 mega1: I think that's fine 20:50:49 hefner: I could have prevented moore33 from working on McCLIM, I guess, which would have avoided some of those problems, but then we would not have had a usable system either. 20:50:50 the default action with overwriting whole resolv.conf sucks, though 20:50:58 mega1: I think you want 20:51:35 or more directly 20:51:37 beach: I don't follow. I do not think you are being serious. 20:51:51 guaqua: nsswitch is a hack... compare it with plan9's ndb for example 20:52:11 hefner: You are right that I am not serious. 20:52:17 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@63.107.91.99] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:52:38 p_l: i'll have to take a look at it 20:52:46 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:30 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:40 Krystof: thanks, that will work 20:53:47 Anyway, bedtime! Good night! 20:53:56 -!- Ginei_Morioka [n=irssi_lo@78.115.201.101] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:53:57 beach: I'm not bashing mcclim or its development, just reflecting on the state of things and how it might be perceived. 20:54:00 ehu`: ok, slime is working now 20:54:03 Ginei_Morioka [n=irssi_lo@78.115.215.201] has joined #lisp 20:54:24 mega1: you're very, very welcome :-) 20:54:41 do I need to send a notice? 20:54:47 no 20:54:54 hefner: sure! 20:55:16 hefner: we definitely have a problem with perception. 20:55:23 ehu`: but lisp-way building doesn't 20:56:55 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:57:08 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:57:21 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 20:58:44 oRaw [n=oRaw@unaffiliated/oraw] has joined #lisp 21:00:25 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:01:04 froydnj: only 98? :-) 21:03:17 stassats`: do you have spaces in your pathnames? 21:03:39 Krystof: heh 21:03:45 no, i don't think so 21:04:06 HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 21:04:13 stassats`: could you send a mail with more details? I'm using jdk1.5.0_18 and 1.6.0_12, with clisp 2.47; none result in any problems. 21:04:27 could you send me more data about your setup? 21:04:34 (pref. by mail) 21:04:48 -!- gh7d395pi69wd [n=dsadsads@unaffiliated/gh7d395pi69wd] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:05:02 what mailing list is preferable? 21:06:34 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.115] has left #lisp 21:06:44 armedbear-j-devel@ at sf 21:07:58 -!- HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Client Quit] 21:08:13 -!- mouratov [n=mouratov@94.41.31.168.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:08:18 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 21:10:12 HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 21:10:26 sent 21:14:47 thanks. 21:14:51 looking into it. 21:16:13 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 21:17:36 lichtblau [n=user@pD9543046.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:18:05 looks like this time it's defun inside eval-when 21:18:40 yea. I'll have some sleep over this one. The issue is a bit bigger than I had hoped. 21:18:55 obviously, we actually want to load the compiled code. 21:19:09 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:19:29 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:19:44 so, I'll have some sleep over it first. 21:20:02 good night 21:20:45 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:21:01 has anyone tried using clbuild over tinycore linux? 21:21:02 saikat [n=saikat@69.181.127.247] has joined #lisp 21:21:30 i'm tring to setup a small distro over an old 256mb usb stick :) 21:22:14 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:35 should be enough for all version control systems 21:22:37 but i think i won't succeed in doing this since tiny core is really tiny :) 21:23:21 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-84-45.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:28:45 dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:45 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:29:19 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:32:00 does mcclim and other graphics stuff work in xvesa? 21:32:16 no reason why it shouldn't 21:32:32 CLX does not really push the X server. 21:32:51 you can push it with xrender. 21:33:11 wasn't it nyef that was making a cl x server (clxs I think) 21:33:29 (very sad, how many drivers fail to accelerate basic xrender tasks, and how there's no way to determine whether they do or not, so in practice most of the interesting features of xrender are unusable in robust software) 21:34:58 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:35:04 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-84-45.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 21:39:10 -!- HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:39:29 Ante` [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:20 stassats`: new fix committed. off to bed really now. 21:40:24 -!- Ante` [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40:32 I think this one works: full system compilation completed. 21:40:39 -!- Samy [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40:41 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:41:14 Only problem I see: it may not be fully CLHS compliant: it sets load-truename, while it's actually processing the :compile-toplevel form. 21:41:16 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-84-45.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:41:27 -!- kinnetica [n=kinnetic@pool-96-231-130-194.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 21:41:49 is there a function that returns an atom's type 21:41:54 or better yet 21:41:56 type-of 21:42:01 nikodemus pasted "winnage! non-sucky dx make-array with :initial-contents" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79523 21:42:02 Is there a webpage to find out if there is a function that does something I have in mind? 21:42:20 but load-truename be bound to non-NIL values iff a file is being loaded. 21:42:21 stassats`: thanks! 21:42:23 minion: clqr? 21:42:24 clqr: The Common Lisp Quick Reference is a booklet with short descriptions of the symbols defined in the ANSI standard: http://clqr.berlios.de/ 21:42:33 nikodemus: well, that would normally be true winnage. But I can make objects which are both structure-objects and standard-objects 21:42:34 (which isn't the case here, officially) 21:43:09 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:43:12 neat'o 21:43:24 so you have both direct slots and slots in the vector? 21:43:34 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:43:34 konr: or dictionary sections in clhs 21:43:39 clhs 4.4 21:43:39 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 4.4. 21:43:49 nikodemus: does your allocation work with more than three arguments? 21:43:53 yes :) 21:43:58 (3 is the number of args in registers, right? Just checking :-) 21:44:13 nikodemus: yes, I do. (At the moment I have a somewhat confused type system, too) 21:44:16 ehu`: build succeed 21:44:24 great! 21:44:41 Only thing I need is a more compliant solution :-) 21:45:15 do tell! 21:45:51 nikodemus: oh, I think it's only some typetran stuff that needs to be updated for the new reality 21:46:13 layout-depthoid is no longer quite as reliable as it used to be (specifically, -1 doesn't mean "can't be a subclass of a structure" any more) 21:46:33 ) 21:46:34 nikodemus annotated #79523 "bonus feature" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79523#1 21:46:43 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 21:47:11 ah, i actually mena tell about the application... 21:47:51 nikodemus: (defclass my-package (conduit-package-mixin package) ...) 21:48:02 very neat 21:48:12 (defclass your-package (local-package-nicknames-mixin package) ...) 21:48:24 there's a certain distance to go before that actually works, of course 21:48:25 what about (defclass my-stream (stream) ...) 21:49:53 that is, will the grey stream subclassing become less magical? 21:54:19 Ogedei` [n=user@78.52.228.53] has joined #lisp 21:54:52 ajcc_ [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:55:25 guille_ [n=guille_@106.Red-83-39-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:34 -!- mega1 [n=mega@53d8260a.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:00:18 nikodemus: actually, gray stream subclassing is much less magical already 22:00:38 because there you don't have this mixed structure / standard 22:01:55 oh, right. though there is something fairly magical about STREAM, isn't there? 22:04:10 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:06:53 -!- ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:10:27 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.235.167] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:10:28 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:10:31 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:11:47 -!- mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:14:08 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:14:48 LuminimFoil [n=0x00000@219-195.surfsnel.dsl.internl.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:08 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:18:30 nikodemus: only a tiny bit. It gets put twice in the layout-inherits of the various structure stream classes 22:19:12 that's so that it has a constant layout-depthoid (for type tests), even when clos subclasses of it are defined 22:19:12 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:19:24 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:22:42 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:31 -!- dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [] 22:25:45 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-84-45.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 22:28:10 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:28:24 HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 22:30:41 -!- pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 22:31:42 -!- add` [n=add@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has left #lisp 22:32:08 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-84-45.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:32:39 add_ [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 22:33:32 -!- add_ [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has left #lisp 22:34:23 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EAEDD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 22:35:52 -!- Ogedei` [n=user@78.52.228.53] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:36:45 -!- etate [n=etate@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:37:15 manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:37:15 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:38:18 phf [n=phf@c-98-231-211-226.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:59 nikodemus: can you make dx arrays not suck for :initial-element, too? 22:39:47 -!- xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has quit ["BitchX-1.1-final -- just do it."] 22:39:47 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:39:52 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:39:59 froydnj: working on that right now 22:40:28 nikodemus: excellent. 22:41:28 nikodemus annotated #79523 ":initial-element" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79523#2 22:44:38 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:45:29 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:47:32 nikodemus: neat. how did you get the compiler to not keep reloading 14 every time? 22:47:44 -!- guille_ [n=guille_@106.Red-83-39-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:48:34 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:50:23 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 22:53:44 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:55:46 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-11982.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:56:06 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-84-45.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:56:39 froydnj: a magical ir2-conversion 22:57:27 emit-fixed-alloc + emit-move + vop vector-data-set-with-offset/ 22:57:28 nikodemus: neat. is it magic enough to prevent constant propagation in lots of other useful cases, or just for this case? 22:57:49 not sure what you mean? 22:57:56 to prevent reloading? 23:00:22 nikodemus: IIRC, disassembling sb-unix:fd-zero shows awful code. 23:00:36 let me paste 23:00:56 nikodemus: or FILL'ing an array with a constant value will have the constant loading in the loop, rather than outside the loop 23:01:22 nikodemus annotated #79523 "the magic" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79523#3 23:02:13 yeah, this magic will not make other cases better 23:02:15 ah, ok, so not exactly general. 23:02:21 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:34 -!- Joreji [n=nah@41-218.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:02:35 you may want to consider limiting the complete unrolling of the initialization code there :) 23:02:39 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:19 yeah, i'm trying to plug in REP STOS into FIXED-ALLOC for 8, 16, and 32 bit sizes 23:04:06 neat 23:04:29 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 23:05:00 i'm starting to believe that having small general purpose vops and magical ir2 conversion functions that combine them is a good strategy for all sorts of things 23:05:26 yes, I can see how that'd be useful. 23:05:50 dinner calls, but i'd be interested in chatting with you more about this later. 23:06:34 sure 23:07:02 i'll probably email the whole patch to the list early next week 23:07:03 X-Scale2 [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has joined #lisp 23:07:11 -!- X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:09:28 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:10:28 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:12:33 -!- X-Scale2 [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has quit [Client Quit] 23:12:53 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 23:15:34 Pegazus [n=awefawe@host224.201-253-84.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 23:17:13 dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:33 -!- deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:18:01 deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:18:06 -!- LuminimFoil [n=0x00000@219-195.surfsnel.dsl.internl.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:20:04 -!- droogie [n=user@88.238.43.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:20:25 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["I'm off!"] 23:20:39 X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f0a:13ea:0:0:0:2] has joined #lisp 23:21:02 -!- X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f0a:13ea:0:0:0:2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:21:50 X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f0a:13ea:0:0:0:2] has joined #lisp 23:22:53 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 23:24:31 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 23:24:47 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 23:25:39 brandelune [n=suzume@pl065.nas932.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:27:11 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-159.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:31:15 _8david [n=user@pD9541A55.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:33:01 -!- Pegazus_ [n=awefawe@host38.201-253-182.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:34:58 -!- HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:35:13 HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 23:44:54 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-136-182.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 23:45:18 alec [n=alec@pool-96-237-2-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:32 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:47:14 -!- lichtblau [n=user@pD9543046.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:51:33 -!- benreesman [n=ben@asa01-ext.utc.backmo.com] has quit [] 23:52:05 theL00p [n=user@78.33.52.101] has joined #lisp 23:52:06 topo [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has joined #lisp 23:52:55 -!- oRaw [n=oRaw@unaffiliated/oraw] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:52:58 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:36 -!- topo_ [n=topo@77.228.136.95] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:55:28 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:55:32 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:55:39 -!- HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:55:52 HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 23:58:29 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [] 23:59:40 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:59:49 -!- dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit []