00:00:01 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has left #lisp 00:02:02 nyef [n=nyef@24.220.182.229] has joined #lisp 00:05:34 borism [n=boris@195-50-197-155-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 00:06:06 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:43 pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 00:11:41 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 00:12:17 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-111-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:12:22 is it still possible to get a job coding cool stuff in lisp? 00:13:56 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has joined #lisp 00:15:23 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:17:00 konr: certainly 00:18:38 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:18:53 konr: though probably the most direct way to it is "startup" ;D 00:19:58 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:14 p_l: haha, I'm planning that... but even ramen costs money 00:23:25 *p_l* loves how those noodles get to be called ramen in most english-speaking countries... 00:23:58 konr: well, you have to find clients/lusers (whatever rocks your boat) to provide you with money for your startup :) 00:25:00 <_3b> p_l: words seldom keep much meaning when imported :) 00:25:47 _3b: Well, those kept theirs quite well. It's just that in poland we simple call all those instant soups either "instant soup" or "chinese soups" :D 00:25:52 *simply 00:26:58 <_3b> ah, names like that are fun too :) 00:27:18 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-150-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:59 hmm... good thing Alliance has tutorials 00:29:01 As usual, if you're really good at what you do, you'll find a job. 00:29:31 and if you are willing to relocate - the cool job might not be where you live already 00:29:53 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-30.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 00:30:23 <_3b> well, if you are good enough, you should be able to make a job where you live :) 00:30:36 montreal is nice that way; I probably wouldn't have to worry about relocating. 00:30:41 -!- elurin [n=user@81.213.201.55] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:31:08 <_3b> also, at least tech tends to gather in relatively nice places (if not cheap ones) 00:31:32 in my case it's more of a problem concerning "being a full time student" :) 00:33:06 though I have yet to really hit on local recruitment agencies... 00:38:11 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-80-121.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:41:56 is it possible to get rid of garbage collection temporarily ? 00:42:34 is there something like an option to turn on or off ? 00:43:28 puuuuh, that's really taking ages 00:45:10 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-150-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:49:59 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:50:09 Disabling GC depends on your implementation. 00:50:44 And some implementations have both global and lexical forms for it. 00:52:02 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:28 nyef: ok, i just got some recommends reading i the manual 00:57:11 I recall some interesting proposals about GC control some time ago (probably the only really worthwhile thing I read on c.l.l) 00:57:12 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:42 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:21 Ooh. A KLUDGE comment from 1999 describes exactly the refactoring I need to perform. 00:59:30 lol 00:59:43 BTW, as for names in place of lameulator 01:00:01 nyef: you mean you're working on lisp sources from the last century? 01:00:15 pjb: Yes. It's called "SBCL". 01:00:30 pjb: And not merely last century, but last millenium! 01:00:32 I propose one of: beta, cl-beta, cl-alpha or "akia" :P 01:00:57 "akia"? 01:01:04 LISP: the language that crosses millenia! 01:01:56 nyef: AOAlpha KIcks Ass ;-) 01:01:59 damn 01:02:08 *Alpha 01:02:47 *nyef* has this sudden horrible idea of calling it "Alpha Over Lambda". 01:02:52 For all you people who type stuff a lot that could easily be a template (like... (defun () "" ) ), I highly, highly recommend yasnippet for emacs 01:03:11 nyef: Also nice :) 01:03:33 "Me too!" 01:03:39 vande [n=sdfpme@119.128.225.179] has joined #lisp 01:04:01 nyef: or maybe ? 01:04:29 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-150-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:36 nah, it doesn't sound that good 01:04:50 *nyef* gets the distinct feeling that his IRC client stripped some characters out again. 01:05:00 :) 01:05:18 heh, hefner@lightworks:~/sbcl-1.0.25/src$ find -iname \*.lisp |xargs grep KLUDGE |wc -l => 390 01:05:28 *_3b* needs a small monospace font with more characters 01:05:36 minion, chant 01:05:36 MORE OF A PROBLEM 01:05:41 _3b: monaco! 01:07:38 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:08:41 nyef: unfortunately, my further lookups for suitable name start turning up stuff that is rather hard to pronounce :) 01:09:58 Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-150-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:31 I doubt anyone would like "reiseinifurumau" as name 01:11:27 It's too long when written in romanji anyway. 01:11:38 true 01:12:12 AoL is nice, except for the link to a certain company 01:12:36 hmm... Ailis? 01:12:44 Right. And there's also the link to a certain book... 01:13:06 Alpha In LISp? 01:13:14 Might be amusing to call it "Landale", and see if anyone figures it out. 01:13:24 I certainly can't :D 01:13:33 It's a Phantasy Star joke. 01:14:09 well, Ailis is the name of one of my emulated VMS machines :) 01:14:38 (means "Alice" in modern english, afaik) 01:14:44 Could also call it "Juliet"... By way of a car and a play. 01:15:10 "The meaning of the name Ailis is 'Noble kind; of the noble sort'. " 01:15:47 No, I've got it! "Perry". 01:15:54 ?_? 01:15:58 It ties in -perfectly-. 01:16:13 It's from the infocom game "A Mind Forever Voyaging". 01:16:31 heh 01:16:58 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:17:30 Perry Simm is an AI also known as PRISM. AXP is Almost eXactly Prism. 01:17:37 dulouz [n=ross@dsl254-119-219.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:37 haha 01:17:45 And it's a CPU simulator. 01:17:48 AXP is not exactly that, but I agree :) 01:18:08 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:18:09 AXP was afaik strapped on the name by marketing :) 01:18:21 I know it's not exactly that, but that apparently was the joke. 01:18:38 Heh. Almost exactly the reverse of Windows NT, huh? 01:19:01 heh 01:19:01 (NT was from the technical team, something to do with the hardware they did the original kernel work on IIRC.) 01:19:26 nyef: NT simply meant New Technology, afaik to differentiate from previous OSes from MS 01:19:45 Windows got strapped after someone decided to use WinAPI as the main programming api... 01:21:00 ... I wonder if my "bootdisk" with windows will start 01:21:36 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-150-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:21:44 You might have to set the clock back. I heard that there was some ludicrous demo limit on Alpha NT. 01:21:50 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-150-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:02 moocow [n=new@65.61.237.53] has joined #lisp 01:23:05 nyef: Nah, not NT/alpha (that one I've got full & legal) 01:23:33 i'm trying to install NT6.1 Server Beta :-) 01:23:39 Ah. 01:26:05 -!- moocow [n=new@65.61.237.53] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:26:07 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 01:26:24 moocow [n=new@65.61.237.53] has joined #lisp 01:26:50 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:27:15 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-150-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:28:13 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-68-239-77-4.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:46 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:29:50 well, here's hoping it will start... 01:30:47 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 01:31:11 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:31:18 ... damn. Disk error 01:33:01 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 01:33:12 as for Alpha NT, I've got NT4.0 Workstation install media for Alpha 01:34:10 Someone was supposed to be getting me a set. I'll have to ask him about it tomorrow. 01:34:17 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-31-23.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 01:37:29 chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:11 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-150-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:35 -!- gandhijee [i=akp@host-66-202-34-165.spr.choiceone.net] has quit [] 01:39:57 unfortunately my copy is at home in Poland, not in my dorm 01:40:23 That's fine. As I said, I was sourcing it elsewhere. 01:43:10 gandhijee [i=akp@host-66-202-34-165.spr.choiceone.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:15 -!- moocow [n=new@65.61.237.53] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:48:11 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:48:40 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 01:50:14 vande_ [n=sdfpme@116.4.100.145] has joined #lisp 01:54:27 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@ip98-164-199-153.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:45 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:55:37 -!- vande [n=sdfpme@119.128.225.179] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:55:46 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:46 -!- vande_ is now known as vande 02:00:33 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 02:05:47 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CCA7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:06:01 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:08:06 Okay, time to see if this build hack works... 02:08:11 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 02:08:54 (And it looks okay so far, building the cross compiler.) 02:11:46 legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-0-25.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 02:15:23 And it looks like the cross-build is good, too. 02:16:02 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:46 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:19:19 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:22:02 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 02:22:29 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:27:55 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 02:28:41 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:34 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-46-142.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:32:47 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:03 nyef annotated #79210 "Build-process filename handling refactoring" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79210#2 02:37:21 akcom [i=akcom@rrcs-67-79-132-132.se.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:37:51 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-59.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 02:38:25 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 02:44:07 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:44:52 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-56.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:49:21 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:26 So, I just spotted an advantage to not having the bloody symlinks around. 02:52:07 All my source paths will be correct, even for a freshly unpacked tree, and still pull the right file if pointed to a tree built for a different arch. 02:52:15 -!- vande [n=sdfpme@116.4.100.145] has quit ["leaving"] 02:53:46 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:57:16 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-173.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 02:58:05 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@pool-173-79-200-142.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:33 vande [n=sdfpme@116.4.100.145] has joined #lisp 02:58:34 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy 02:58:37 -!- vande [n=sdfpme@116.4.100.145] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:00:16 vande [n=sdfpme@116.4.100.145] has joined #lisp 03:01:17 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:12 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 03:04:52 nyef annotated #79210 "target/ symlinks must die" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79210#3 03:07:33 I think I'm done with this line of development, and it's time for me to get some sleep. 03:07:36 -!- nyef [n=nyef@24.220.182.229] has quit ["G'night all."] 03:08:00 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 03:08:18 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:10:03 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 03:11:41 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 03:12:42 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:22:17 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:25:49 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-7574a2780822736c] has joined #lisp 03:25:54 -!- CrazyEddy [n=rational@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:26:11 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-7574a2780822736c] has left #lisp 03:30:00 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 03:33:05 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.244.229] has joined #lisp 03:33:36 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 03:34:10 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 03:37:44 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:01 droogie [n=user@88.238.42.130] has joined #lisp 03:39:44 i couldn't find any doc for cl-opengl, is there just the examples or am i missing some pages? 03:40:20 droogie: I suppose Red Book will be your most important doc. 03:40:20 CrazyEddy [n=humerome@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 03:40:54 I don't recall there being any. I went by the opengl manpages when I used it, supplemented by grepping the source code. It's straightforward. 03:42:09 so is it just like a sytax translation? 03:42:53 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-68-239-77-4.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:43:04 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-213-143.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:43:22 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:43:24 I guess you could say that. 03:43:34 (where's everyone going? what'd I do? ;) 03:43:41 ? 03:44:11 afaik even Haskell bindings are quite similar to "normal" OpenGL programming 03:44:12 jesus ccl compiles fast 03:44:30 hefner: i'm sorry for the weird term i just created :) 03:44:55 it ran all my fiveam tests in the blink of an eye, while running them on sbcl tends to involve some 'wait for the dots. Okay, dots are done" 03:44:56 :D 03:45:21 droogie: talk to _3b, he's working on cl-opengl 03:45:42 and as far as I can see, coding with cl-opengl doesn't seem that different from "normal" OGL programming. 03:46:01 did they make win32/win64 as stable platform for CCL? 03:47:26 p_l: http://trac.clozure.com/openmcl/wiki/WindowsNotes 03:47:30 kuzoo [i=a38b25bd@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-872096ef40800838] has joined #lisp 03:48:27 -!- kuzoo [i=a38b25bd@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-872096ef40800838] has left #lisp 03:48:41 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-213-143.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:43 "For obscure reasons, the 32-bit port doesn't run on 64-bit OS versions at this point." =D 03:49:02 I wonder if they would be interested in compiling the C kernel with cl.exe 03:49:35 CCL is growing on me. :P 03:50:02 it's even less useful than SBCL for deploying apps on windows, until they fix that little point. 03:50:58 sykopomp: have you considered not compiling your tests? 03:51:19 hefner: that little point can be quite easily avoided... 03:51:22 pkhuong: I think fiveam compiles everything on the fly, as it runs the tests or something. I'm not familiar with how it does things. 03:51:37 p_l: oh? 03:51:49 -!- dulouz [n=ross@dsl254-119-219.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:51:55 -!- droogie [n=user@88.238.42.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:52:00 (don't say "ship two versions") 03:52:09 hefner: one .MSI, inside two binaries 03:52:10 hefner: I was about to... 03:52:17 ooh 03:52:28 install configures depending on hw 03:53:12 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.217.125] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:54:00 Good morning. 03:54:39 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:55:10 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 03:56:08 <_3b> cl-opengl tries to make things nicer to use where possible, but should still be fairly close to the C api most places 03:56:21 good morning 03:56:24 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:41 <_3b> for example you can pass multiple parameteters to gl:enable at ocne instead fo 1 per call like the C api 03:56:47 <_3b> *at once 03:56:51 mornin' beach. kami- too 03:57:05 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:29 <_3b> (and yes, documentation is on the list of things to do at some point, patches welcome :) 03:57:36 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:57:39 BTW, I just got CommonQT to work ^_^ 03:57:51 it's a very nice thing to have :) 03:57:55 good times. A lot seems to be working lately :D 03:58:09 these are good times to be a lithper. 03:59:10 <_3b> (oh, i guess the person wondering about cl-opengl is gone...) 03:59:11 -!- jbmigel [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:59:17 droogie [n=user@88.238.42.130] has joined #lisp 03:59:24 droogie <-- there he is 03:59:27 he just returned :D 03:59:33 <_3b> heh 03:59:38 *p_l* finishes his test install of 2k8r2 04:00:30 -!- droogie [n=user@88.238.42.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:03:33 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-150-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 04:04:36 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-150-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:23 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:50 eh... they could lower the amount of restarts required... 04:11:42 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:01 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:12:02 -!- nixzs is now known as oso`perezoso 04:12:30 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:56 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:14:05 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:14:28 kurama [i=a38b25bd@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-50b82f2c86331603] has joined #lisp 04:14:40 btw, "ship many versions" is quite good idea IMHO :) 04:14:55 p_l: compiling all those versions is the tricky part :) 04:14:55 oh, sure, the more the merrier. 04:15:07 at least when you're dealing with windows and OSX 04:15:11 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:15:17 -!- kurama [i=a38b25bd@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-50b82f2c86331603] has left #lisp 04:15:31 distribution in linux land pretty often comes down to "distribute the special sauce with some build scripts" 04:15:52 linux land unfortunately isn't well prepared for multi-arch systems 04:16:06 at least the distros that are available 04:16:13 what do you mean multi-arch systems? 04:16:16 it's about as well prepared for multiple architectures as it is for a single architecture 04:16:29 -!- hbock [n=hbock@pool-96-253-33-184.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 04:16:44 compare it for example with solaris, where you have single system image for both x86 and x86-64 (and you can probably squeeze sparc into it, but config files would collide) 04:16:56 kurama [i=a38b25bd@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c7e0ee3a51de4f36] has joined #lisp 04:17:09 true, but that hasn't stopped debian from running on all the platforms it supports... 04:17:10 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 04:17:11 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 04:17:18 not to mention Plan9 which was designed to have one filesystem supporting several arches at the same time 04:17:22 I don't know, I run x86 software on my x86-64 debian machine. It's only slightly less likely to work than it was on my x86 debian machine. 04:17:39 sykopomp: I mean situations where you have one filesystem and different architectures 04:17:54 ah 04:18:15 -!- kurama [i=a38b25bd@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c7e0ee3a51de4f36] has left #lisp 04:19:06 minion: memo for nikodemus: re x86 and alignment, would it be hard to ensure alignment of stack frames too? 04:19:06 Remembered. I'll tell nikodemus when he/she/it next speaks. 04:19:20 while all current linux systems can run both 32bit and 64bit, they are not so different in that support from windows :D 04:19:40 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-173.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:34:15 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:43 bittin` [i=bittin@anapnea.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:01 ltriant [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:37:22 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:37:43 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:39:59 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-150-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:05 bombshelter13p [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has joined #lisp 04:42:27 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-93.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 04:47:25 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:32 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:54:20 bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has joined #lisp 04:54:49 bombshelter13p__ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.32] has joined #lisp 04:54:56 -!- bombshelter13p__ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:55:28 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-93.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 04:56:07 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:05 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-150-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:01:18 JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:24 -!- akcom [i=akcom@rrcs-67-79-132-132.se.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:03:50 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-218.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 05:12:32 -!- bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:15:14 -!- bombshelter13p [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:21:12 roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:30 Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-150-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:04 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Client Quit] 05:26:13 <_3b> anyone know how useable the various darcs<->git tools are? 05:26:30 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-150-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:27:18 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-8b722af176fc579b] has joined #lisp 05:28:46 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-8b722af176fc579b] has left #lisp 05:32:54 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:16 in slime/emacs, what is the command to scroll through recently-interpreted commands 05:33:27 <_3b> M-p ? 05:33:31 (like what UP usually does at a bash shell etc) 05:33:35 *guaqua* uses C-up 05:33:35 yar 05:33:43 thank you! 05:33:44 M-p and M-n :) 05:33:50 is m-n down then 05:33:57 yar 05:34:04 M is in a bad place - sort of 05:34:32 agreed 05:35:06 <_3b> M-p will search for a match if you have partial input already also 05:35:21 beautiful, _3b 05:35:26 which is also very handy :) 05:35:27 thanks you two 05:35:42 np 05:35:43 can i ask also 05:36:06 <_3b> nope, sorry... 'can i ask' used up your last question :( 05:36:22 i always do that! 05:36:28 XD 05:36:44 it seems that M-UPARROW doesn't do anything -- does emacs go out of its way to not be intuitive, or does it all make sense eventually? 05:36:48 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 05:36:50 well, not everyone has symbolics keyboard to have C,M and S in right places... 05:36:57 isismelting: use C-up 05:37:27 <_3b> emacs people are sort of like vi people in not liking arrows :) 05:37:31 p_l -- C-up doesn't work for me 05:37:33 M-down and M-up are not defined 05:37:39 i suppose i'm to define them somehow 05:37:45 i love my Vim, but we wont discuss blasphemy here :@) 05:37:48 isismelting: as in C-uparrow? 05:37:56 yeah 05:38:13 modified arrows are for switching desktops, not to be squandered by precocious editors 05:38:17 hmm... I certainly didn't add anything 05:39:56 p_l - do you use windows ever? 05:39:56 btw, important good feature for SLIME/Smoke. We need code completion for that reader macro! :D 05:40:07 (does anyone use windows ever w/lisp) 05:40:09 isismelting: I just finished installing 2k8r2 on my other machine 05:40:18 *_3b* uses windows with lisp 05:40:41 p_l what would you recommend as a common lisp interface for a windows user? 05:40:47 & _3b? 05:40:47 Emacs? 05:40:53 clisp & emacs & slime 05:40:54 :P 05:40:58 <_3b> sbcl + emacs + slime here 05:40:59 i am using the emacs that comes with lispinabox 05:41:07 clisp, emacs & slime 05:41:16 except I'd give them ECL, CCL, Cormal or other instead of clisp :P 05:41:16 <_3b> i use the gnu windows binaries 05:41:27 <_3b> for emacs that is 05:41:38 Why not clisp? 05:41:58 *_3b* also uses msys/mingw, that doesn't impact lisp stfuf too much aside from building sbcl 05:42:08 do you mean corman? 05:42:15 OK, clisp is good for start, but I personally prefer something with native compiler :) 05:42:19 isismelting: yeah, typo 05:43:26 Corman seems quite good, except it doesn't have Unicode support 05:44:08 <_3b> does it work with random CL libs better yet? 05:44:34 <_3b> when i tried it wouldn't run slime or a few other things i tried (and had a nasty bug that was good for learning lisp on :) 05:44:41 the main problem seems to be ASDF 05:44:53 but ASDF sucks on windows anyway :P 05:45:04 <_3b> works ok with some config tweaking 05:45:09 <_3b> or on clisp 05:45:35 Well, I would have to check ASDF's sources, but I might patch it to _always_ work on recent NT 05:45:54 <_3b> (clisp can resolve windows shortcuts so those work for asdf there) 05:46:01 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:03 ejs [n=eugen@141-159-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:15 well, my plan was to simply let ASDF notice NT file links :D 05:46:43 <_3b> just searching directories works well enough for me 05:46:54 it *is* surprising when you find that all of your *nix semantics work on NTFS :D 05:47:02 <_3b> aside from the occasional forgetting to move an old version of something out of the way :) 05:47:31 At this point, Clozure CL is probably the best option on Windows. Compared to SBCL, it has threads. And both are preferable in terms of library support to the others free implementations. 05:47:35 *lichtblau* needs to hack a REPL in Qt and build a pre-packaged Clozure CL/win32 with a GUI REPL. 05:47:47 anyway, last time I checked, Corman didn't have Unicode, so everything that somehow imported anything unicode related failed 05:47:48 xrt [n=xrt@adsl-99-35-135-200.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:03 lichtblau: CommonQT is awesome :D 05:49:12 dizpater [n=dizpater@68-27-76-69.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:14 now I only need to build a usable set of development environments for both win32 and win64 05:50:17 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:50:20 akcom [i=akcom@rrcs-67-79-132-132.se.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:51:15 -!- divinebovine [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:52:14 dysinger [n=tim@ip-64-139-9-115.dsl.sca.megapath.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:30 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-48.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:57:40 p_l: uh, you already tried CommonQt in Windows? Or just Linux? 05:58:16 divinebovine [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:19 (I'll put up pre-compiled .dlls for CommonQt with Qt 4.5 at some point.) 05:59:15 bombshelter13p [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has joined #lisp 05:59:43 lichtblau: for the time being on linux, after some fighting with kdebindings till I found the exact combination of tricks :) 05:59:58 I still need to play with dlopen paths to make it work properly 06:00:33 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-218.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 06:00:39 are there any plans to separate smoke stuff from Qt-only part? 06:01:03 I suppose for a perfect experience I should also provide binaries for Linux (x86 and amd64 at least), since no Linux distribution I'm aware of ships the right version of smoke2. 06:01:48 p_l: In kdebindings? I think you "just" need to hack the CMakeLists. The Qyoto/Windows script is what I'm using to build for windows, and that doesn't need KDE much, I think. 06:02:12 I think it's only a question of time until the distributions catch up though. 06:02:47 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:49 lichtblau: Oh, in my case it had some problems other than "disable all KDE related stuff" 06:03:10 after I got over that, everything else went fine 06:04:34 so is this Qt business the future? should I abandon the pretense of hacking further on mcclim, or my own more hypothetical lines of research? 06:04:46 Qt is unlikely to be the future. 06:05:03 I'd look at web interfaces for the next decade. 06:05:12 ... fuck no 06:05:17 i would say thats wrong 06:05:30 *p_l* is sick of "everything on the web!" 06:05:31 i would say it really depends on the problem you are trying to solve 06:05:36 Zhivago: I'd like to claim you're answering the wrong question, but maybe I'm asking the wrong question. 06:05:45 Quite possibly. 06:05:57 hefner: Why not make mcclim use Qt? :D 06:06:06 p_l: don't worry, at the end of the decade web interfaces will have improved to be about as good as what we have now on the desktop :) 06:06:23 michaelw: And they still won't work correctly without network? 06:06:23 Oh, I think they'll be markedly better. 06:06:37 I suspect that web interfaces will have improved to be better than clim. 06:07:00 michaelw: thats true 06:07:12 it is true they will 06:07:13 The limitations of a dom tree have some big advantages. 06:07:23 I suspect we will be needing 8G of ram only for firefox and spend weeks tinkering with our computers to make "web apps" work faster ;-) 06:07:23 the document object model can handle everything native widgets can 06:07:44 Well, I'm not sure that's true. 06:07:59 But the regular structure for content makes walking over 3rd party interfaces a lot easier. 06:08:20 So things that would be largely impossible on the desktop become reasonably easy. 06:08:28 *nod* 06:08:49 Well, WPF also has equivalent of DOM and doesn't require me to run web browser with all its braindamage :) 06:09:12 Does anyone use WPF? :) 06:09:26 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-24.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 06:09:26 Zhivago: Anyone running NT6 or newer :P 06:09:41 what is wpf? 06:09:43 windows forms? 06:09:44 Zhivago: better than clim is not a robust measure because clim has not been moving forward since when? ... a long time. 06:09:45 Not by choice, then :) 06:09:55 divinebovine: Windows Presentation Foundation 06:10:02 lol 06:10:06 oh funny 06:10:13 you go and run your little windows world :) 06:10:28 michaelw: Well, let's just say that I see the vision of clim being realized via dhtml more realistically than via random desktop applications. 06:11:05 NT6 display model forces tree-based management of graphic objects - GDI-based apps are turned into "image" object inside a window :) 06:11:06 Zhivago: i've read up a bit on clim, what is the clim 'vision'? just curious 06:11:12 *hefner* suddenly wants to hack on his javascript calculator thing, and decorate the output with some kind of javascript mini-clim 06:11:59 -!- gandhijee [i=akp@host-66-202-34-165.spr.choiceone.net] has left #lisp 06:12:25 a subset of clim in parenscript could be an interesting SoC project (if Google would still sponsor Lisp projects...) 06:13:20 BTW, lichtblau, I'm interested in separating QT-specific code from SMOKE ffi, so that we might get other libraries through it :) 06:13:23 divine: It is difficult to make short, but I would say that it is essentially about a printable interface where the elements are interactive questions and answers. 06:13:55 aha 06:13:56 divine: For example, take a map and consider the countries to be answers to questions that can accept a country name. 06:14:26 Zhivago: anyway, the discussion was broader than that. It will take substantial engineering efforts until we have all things in the browser that we have right now on the desktop 06:14:42 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:14:49 divine: Now print a question like "The population of ___ country is ___", and use one of those countries in the map to fill in the first part, and cause the second to be filled in automatically. 06:14:55 it would require scrapping of the browser in the first place and building something designed for that 06:14:57 michael: I don't think that we want all of them. 06:15:12 I asked a question about max and min a few hours back, but I botched it. 06:15:14 michael: My argument is that the loss of flexibility on the web substantially increases power. 06:15:23 qt has a html rendering widget .. html has a qt rendering widget .. ad infinitum 06:15:42 What I meant to ask was: max and min do not require the use of float contagion (they may return a non-float result even if some args are floats). Do any implementations actually do so? 06:16:12 michaelw: the halfway approach is we end up build web-style interfaces on the desktop embedding e.g. webkit with hooks to do native desktop-y things, however perverse that seems 06:16:25 hefner: we do that already... 06:16:31 Clisp apparently does iff the rational is too big to fit in a float. 06:16:38 p_l: maybe you do. I've never seen it. 06:16:50 hefner: I had seen it, but I'm personally against that 06:16:52 hefner one might say that its an acceptable strategy 06:17:02 who is this hefner one? I'd like to meet him. 06:17:03 you can hook into the qt framework and then replace it piece by piece 06:17:22 on the other hand just doing it from scratch has its appeal 06:17:51 well, I guess I've done it myself, if a few widgets wrapped around a qtwebkit counts 06:18:02 divinebovine: it's a roundabout way of wasting time and resources, unless there is a gain to be had (which I fail to see yet) 06:18:51 the only one is the framework hardware and network abstraction really 06:19:04 not much outside of that i guess 06:19:33 hmm, no, I'm wrong, both clisp and sbcl apparently do return a rational arg if it's the extremum. 06:20:06 I'll have to reimplement max and min to do proper float contagion 06:20:21 michaelw: you know what? you are right. i'm using stumpwm right now and frankly i can see why starting from scratch could be fun 06:20:25 no baggage 06:20:38 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:20:57 -!- ejs [n=eugen@141-159-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:21:20 the bad thing is actually that rebuilding everything from scratch each time makes everybody look busy, but nothing new is produced ("Look, tabbed frames in JS+HTML, almost works in IE6, too", whoop-de-doo!) 06:21:56 Start by writing your own assembler 06:22:05 easy enough 06:22:09 *_3b* did that already 06:22:25 well its not like you can't pull in the right software 06:22:41 you don't haveto rewrite everything 06:22:50 just the parts that keep the enviornment lisp flexible 06:22:53 you don't have to do anything 06:23:25 some people want to rewrite everything, for various and admirably irrational reasons. 06:23:57 if you can improve it rewrite it 06:26:09 divinebovine: but where is the improvement? I curse everytime the (simple, yet still botched) UI that my bank provides for account management. I had something substantially better in ~94 06:26:53 for instance, I claim that the client side of the web has become so obscenely baroque and dysfunctional that any future in which it is not superseded by something sane is a tragedy 06:27:02 yup 06:27:07 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-24.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:27:17 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:27:34 Frankly speaking, I'd love to see something similar in spirit to Java applets... 06:27:41 except with better UI library 06:27:46 i wouldn't use those terms 06:27:56 there are better way sto categorize web document problems 06:27:57 p_l: yeah, they really dropped the ball there. 06:28:09 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Bailing out"] 06:28:10 hefner: well, MS helped a lot :> 06:28:29 to my eyes the basic issue is they are trying to get a structured xml document handle things its not desgned to do 06:28:33 although I'm hearing lately about that new Java FX 06:28:42 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:29:09 too little, too late. flash is the new java. java is the new cobol. 06:29:47 I think I prefer COBOL from Java (there are nicer langs for JVM, though) 06:30:06 people have been saying java is dead since its inception 06:30:31 *hefner* is just grumpy from reading folklore.org macintosh stories half the day, and wondering if there's anything left in computing worth putting that kind of passion into 06:30:34 oh, it is dead. a dead, walking zombie 06:30:37 considering its large set of libraries and frameworks that are as close to cross platform as you can get, i doubt seriously it will dissapear any time soon 06:30:41 or become cobol 06:30:53 if anything has become cobol its lisp 06:31:38 write once, run nowhere. great. 06:31:42 and thats not saying anything really, just that the community has to learn how to gain traction again 06:31:55 it's the new cobol, IMHO. Sure, it's crossplatform (assuming devs actually cared about it - I had seen fighting with "enterprise apps" that weren't portable except for the JVM they were developed on) 06:32:33 i see a whole lot of traction on the windows side unfortunately 06:32:52 i don't want to admit it but i can barely find a product that isn't available on their platform 06:33:22 divinebovine: Well, despite people screaming "BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY", developers at MS are trying hard to improve the platform... and it's still the "default" one 06:33:31 MS forgot to close port 80 .. we can sneak stuff in that back door .. ie8 ain't bad 06:33:38 *hefner* apologies for whatever role he played in evoking the present discussion 06:33:50 i don't consider microsoft default for anything 06:33:52 hefner: too late 06:33:54 its just another crappy platform 06:34:11 when i think about why people use it, it seems to be they cater to programmer lazyness more than anything 06:34:16 divinebovine: you, me, maybe not. Many I had seen, yes (at least for client-side) 06:34:24 make it easy to get in and tool around and once they have enough rope to hang them selves they are yours 06:34:34 -!- ltriant [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:34:38 yeah good point 06:35:11 also, those decisions often seem to be done by manglement (no typo here), not by people who actually write the software 06:35:18 programmer and sysadmin laziness 06:35:41 p_l: well i just bought a 100k piece of hr software for a client 06:36:00 frontend on iis, backend on same legacyware running oracle server 06:36:03 the costs are known well before and when you run into trouble, you can't get fired anyway cos you bought microsoft 06:36:08 when i spoke with the lead developer i had to shake my head 06:36:08 I'd say that setting up good windows development environment where you use outside libs that are not .NET is quite hard... 06:36:10 p_l: is that how C# got popular? I never understood that. I thought enterprise types were supposed to be risk averse, but they're always making this random platform leaps. 06:36:20 i'm not a programmer but damnit the company is run by fucking tools without balls 06:36:25 its management and developers 06:36:29 hefner: .NET is miles better than native programming on windows 06:36:35 no leadership, no vision no guts 06:36:47 they just collapse into whats comforteable and what everyone else is doing 06:36:51 p_l: most everything is. 06:37:18 hefner: also, they learned lessons from Java 06:37:20 divinebovine: and that differs how from the 90% of companies? 06:37:53 guaqua: i've only dealt mostly with off the shelf stuff, it was a surprise to get a peek in 06:38:10 i always thought it people were passionate and willing to take risks 06:38:14 well measure anyway 06:38:25 divinebovine: not in corporate environment 06:38:42 divinebovine: the only way to survive, to not lose your soul is to try keep away from that kind of work 06:39:16 well, I might as well end having to fight with some of those tools 06:39:46 i fight them on every corner i get 06:39:54 I recall the one we had at work only worked with JVM packages from the devteam and only on XP 06:40:48 which means that if I'm going back there, I'll end up working with VM without hw acceleration just to run a damned Java app 06:41:44 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-126-133.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:42:10 good morning 06:43:05 -!- pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:44:08 -!- dysinger [n=tim@ip-64-139-9-115.dsl.sca.megapath.net] has quit [] 06:44:19 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:36 ejs [n=eugen@141-159-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:09 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@ip98-164-199-153.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:48:11 cornucopic [n=asaha@192.18.192.21] has joined #lisp 06:52:16 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 06:54:44 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 06:58:52 -!- ejs [n=eugen@141-159-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:00:35 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-48.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:02:33 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 07:04:32 p_l: shouldn't be rocket science. I don't grok cmake, so that's making it hard for me to change their build system is a clean way. But basically this thing just runs kalyptus on the headers, then compiles the output. 07:05:35 ejs [n=eugen@248-233-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:19 dwave [n=ask@084202073105.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 07:08:29 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:10:36 -!- dwave [n=ask@084202073105.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Client Quit] 07:11:24 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 07:13:04 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:13:09 pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 07:14:45 -!- ejs [n=eugen@248-233-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:14:53 -!- xrt [n=xrt@adsl-99-35-135-200.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 07:17:07 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 07:17:07 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:17:19 lichtblau: Yeah, getting smoke bindings for the libs isn't hard - the harder part will be separating Qt and smoke in current CommonQT stuff, it seems :) 07:18:23 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:18:53 -!- pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:19:20 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 07:19:36 though the two libs I'm mostly interested in are QT-related, so it doesn't require any special separation (QtWebkit and Qwt) 07:19:52 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:22:28 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-48.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:24:08 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:25:37 oh, and QScintilla 07:25:38 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:27:07 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:27:57 -!- bombshelter13p [n=bombshel@24.114.232.33] has quit ["quit"] 07:28:05 *p_l* is testing if he manages to build smoke for those libs 07:29:43 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:31:11 mega1 [n=mega@3e44ba22.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:32:00 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 07:32:53 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:33:18 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 07:35:26 let me know how that goes. CommonQt doesn't currently read data from multiple smoke instances, but it should be very easy to change that. 07:35:56 right now I'm trying to massage cmake into building them for me :D 07:36:09 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 07:37:53 -!- cornucopic [n=asaha@192.18.192.21] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:38:47 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 07:38:49 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 07:41:36 -!- vande [n=sdfpme@116.4.100.145] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:41:49 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [Client Quit] 07:45:25 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 07:47:00 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-150-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:56 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:52:56 cornucopic [n=asaha@192.18.192.21] has joined #lisp 07:53:21 hah! I made CMake notice that I want to build additional libraries! 07:55:49 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:56:31 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 07:56:53 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-135-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 07:57:02 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit ["leaving"] 07:57:24 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 07:57:40 ok, all smoke* libs built 08:01:20 lichtblau: I'm going to try some simple lib adding 08:03:24 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:03:25 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-150-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:45 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 08:04:40 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-150-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:06:09 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-e4854422798fec1a] has joined #lisp 08:06:16 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-e4854422798fec1a] has left #lisp 08:09:43 What, if any, is the function/macro/special used in order to determine if a symbol is special? 08:10:45 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 08:10:49 Modius: special-operator-p 08:11:01 I meant, special/dynamic variable 08:11:39 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:40 Your question is incorrect. 08:12:25 Well, maybe not incorrect. 08:13:03 Any symbol names a special variable in the presence of a special declaration for that name. 08:13:14 if it's not lexical, it's always special or unbound, so maybe you could just check if it's bound ? 08:13:26 It may be lexically special ... 08:13:56 wentbackward [n=wentback@n219077065141.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 08:14:01 And it may also be a non-lexical and non-special -- i.e., not a variable. 08:14:18 What problem are you trying to solve with this information? 08:14:34 Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-216-59.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:58 Zhivago: not a variable is equivalent to not bound, isn't it ? 08:15:56 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:15:56 Modius: clisp has a non portable function for this (special-variable-p), so there is probably no simple portable way to have it. 08:16:09 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@94-224-246-148.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 08:16:34 -!- deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:16:55 deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:18:05 My network connection cut out for about a minute there - if anyone said anything helpful I'd appreciate a repeat 08:18:06 Modius: you can use the function VARIABLE-INFORMATION of cltl2's syntax environment section. On sbcl you have to require 'sb-cltl2 first 08:18:21 Modius: clisp has a non portable function for this (special-variable-p), so there is probably no simple portable way to have it. 08:18:36 Modius: There is no portable method -- what problem do you want to solve with this? 08:18:39 kuwabara: This is pre-execution, I'll just use the eval-let-funcall-let-lambda 08:18:58 kuwabara: I just wanted to know if there was something standard. 08:19:29 Modius__: That doesn't help you finding out whether a binding is locally special. 08:19:36 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-150-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:20:11 tcr: I'm codewalking the local context, I'll know *that* 08:20:47 the output to #'describe seems to show if the variable is special (at least in ccl, sbcl and clisp), but that's only useful at the REPL 08:20:52 i'm an absolute amateur programmer, yet i've a program on the practical verge of being able to spit out piece-after-piece of publishable-poetry -- has this been done? can i see/buy books of algorithmic poetry somewhere? 08:21:32 Modius__: Still it's interesting what you need that information for? 08:22:36 isismelting: Did you actually try to publish the poetry? 08:22:43 tcr: Long story. Basically, have another code-walker. Call/cc, trampolining (optional), multi-value support, unwind-protect (including unwind for a continuation). I want the default handling of specials to be to cache them for (with-some-crap-or-other macros 08:23:17 If you have a code-walker, why can't you walk the top-level proclamations? 08:23:34 tcr - no, i have submitted a few pieces for consideration with positive feedback. 08:24:06 Zhivago: Don't want to walk from the top, and want handy support for specials declared in any given ohter library (where the macro with-whatever-the-hell is defined) 08:24:13 isismelting: I don't whether it was done before. If not, it seems worth a paper. 08:24:17 tcr - i wonder if the fact that the program(which i think is me) can generate infinity pieces (theoretically) makes each piece seem less valuable? 08:24:43 Modius: Tricky, then. 08:24:44 You know, the macro that expands to (unwind-protect (let ((*some-special* . .. )) ...) (close **some-special*)) 08:24:51 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:24:51 Zhivago: Not really 08:24:52 tcr - that is, it works by my rules, yet after i'm dead or etc people could make more of the same exact thing with my program. 08:25:16 worth a paper, yeah. that's what i'll do probably, a nice organized essay or small book. 08:25:16 It's tricky because you want to know if something has been proclaimed without looking to see if it has been proclaimed. 08:25:34 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:25:37 Ok, library for code-walkers and continuations is definitively the new Lisp meme as MUD was in the past 08:25:42 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:26:00 <_3b> didn't RACTER get a book published? not sure if that was poetry or not though 08:26:01 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@94-224-246-148.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 08:26:42 Zhivago: I'll have to provide access for specials to be explicitly added to a context's support. That said, pre-execution, whether a symbol represents a special variable can be determined with an eval `(let ((,sym t)) (funcall (let ((,sym nil)) (lambda () ,sym))) 08:26:46 isismelting: I'd ask in an forum about AI about prior art. 08:26:56 isismelting: Also try a search on scholar.google.com 08:28:20 Modius__ Not for bindings that are locally special around the invocation of your code walker. 08:28:34 tcr: Aye 08:28:42 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:28:49 Modius__: And you have to test for CONSTANTP of the symbol before, otherwise you could end up trying to rebind a constant 08:29:08