00:01:35 -!- kinnetica [n=kinnetic@208-58-64-106.c3-0.129-ubr4.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:01:42 -!- HG` [n=wells@91.111.13.16] has quit [Client Quit] 00:02:13 alec [n=alec@pool-96-233-16-99.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:22 antifuchs: the alpha I'm talking about is on sexy boinkmarks and the resize issue was on the old boinkmarks on my work setup when I was in japan...using firfox on win32 at 1024x768 00:03:11 antifuchs: at least it looks like is has opacity levels to me at least...which I assumed was alpha. 00:03:42 minus one 'at least' 00:04:27 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["c Ya!"] 00:04:45 -!- apo [n=apo@pD9E7F168.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:05:49 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:17 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 00:08:26 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has left #lisp 00:08:48 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:09:04 ah I see... the graphs are on top 00:12:20 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 00:17:06 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 00:19:42 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Client Quit] 00:19:46 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCBBA2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 00:22:00 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:26:29 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:31:09 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442133.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:31:21 -!- white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:33:01 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-149-117-84.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 00:34:32 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 00:37:35 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:39:38 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:52 how do i use slime presentations to copy the result of the last evaluation at the REPL? 00:43:05 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:44:50 Having some trouble using asdf-install. I think get is being bloced by the firewall. What port does GET use? 00:45:36 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:47:01 same as your web-browser normally uses, younder .. http protocol at port 80 00:47:57 thanks 00:51:49 Acually it was just a 404 or "Not found" message 00:52:26 minion: tell younder about clbuild 00:52:27 younder: please see clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 00:52:47 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:20 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@c-68-84-2-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:53:30 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy 00:58:32 Since I use ubuntu I usually just use apt-get to install cl systems 00:59:06 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:02:03 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:02:30 white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:04:58 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:30 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:06:15 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:07:52 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:56 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 01:19:44 you might find that that does not work too well, younder .. just so you know .. the debian/ubuntu lisp packages are usually waay old 01:21:27 chessguy: click them with the middle button, IIRC 01:22:00 there seems to be a sort of "pause" in lisp-land when it comes to packaging and deployment .. there are several things out there looking to replace asdf and/or asdf-install .. so what people seem to do is use stuff like darcs/git/svn etc. (and clbuild tries to make this a bit easier) 01:22:20 ..darcs/git/svn etc. for deployment i mean 01:24:28 younder: yeah, that's a bad idea. use clbuild. 01:26:11 <_3b> luis: are you doing anything with cl-opengl still? 01:26:15 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 01:29:56 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:09 -!- prip [n=_prip@host254-129-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:32:10 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-fce869f721230228] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:09 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 01:36:19 prip [n=_prip@host254-129-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 01:39:15 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:43:11 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:44:08 antifuchs: i eval the the code in that sbcl manual. 01:45:04 but nothing seems to happen 01:46:32 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-146-64.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:33 -!- kinnetica_ [n=kinnetic@208-58-64-106.c3-0.129-ubr4.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 01:49:22 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:49:28 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:53:03 (require :asdf)) 01:53:04 01:53:04 ;;; If a fasl was stale, try to recompile and load (once).) 01:53:04 (defmethod asdf:perform :around ((o asdf:load-op)))) 01:53:04 (c asdf:cl-source-file))) 01:53:04 (handler-case (call-next-method o c))) 01:53:06 ;; If a fasl was stale, try to recompile and load (once).) 01:53:08 (sb-ext:invalid-fasl ())) 01:53:10 (asdf:perform (make-instance 'asdf:compile-op) c))) 01:54:02 sorry for the noise. I just hit the wrong key shortcut. I'm in OS X and I always thought that the command key is the Meta key 01:54:06 if pasting it into your lisp didn't do what you wanted, I'm certain pasting it into your IRC client won't either 01:54:42 I thought I was hitting M-v. 01:54:54 I hate apple. They are stupid. 01:56:33 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-74-99.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:57:18 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:57 that's the first step to recovery. 02:01:44 <_3b> hefner: i can render that mario correctly now :) 02:01:44 -!- droogie [n=user@88.238.196.46] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:02:25 that is awesome. for the lightening round, try the shaded version, full of gradient meshes and nonstandard adobe blending modes ;) 02:02:48 *hefner* knows how to lightning. 02:02:52 <_3b> heh, i assume your code doesn't deal with that? 02:03:43 no. nothing renders it right, even saved as pdf in adobe reader. :) 02:03:52 <_3b> heh 02:03:55 are you two talking about a standard compliance test of some sort? 02:03:58 <_3b> i'll skip that then 02:04:07 <_3b> tsuru: nah, just some random file 02:04:34 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-187.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:34 <_3b> tsuru: trying to convert svg to flash 02:04:45 that file was my "learn to do vector graphics" exercise. great fun. 02:05:16 (left me with a deep and abiding dislike for Illustrator's interface) 02:05:39 <_3b> hopefully i can avoid dealing with the art tools as much as possible 02:05:43 legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-15-80.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 02:06:49 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 02:07:52 <_3b> http://www.3bb.cc/tmp/svg-test-mario2.swf <- current version 02:08:25 <_3b> (random testing junk in the background, including one of the vecto examples) 02:08:34 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-101-216.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:08:58 <_3b> now to try to figure out gradients and ugly svg/css stuff :/ 02:09:10 kinnetica [n=kinnetic@208-58-64-106.c3-0.129-ubr4.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:09:51 whoa 02:10:31 that is sweet. 02:10:58 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442133.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 02:11:15 hefner: did you find a better feeling tool than illustrator? or is it all The Matrix style seeing vectors in the code? 02:11:15 oh, his tail is screwed up. 02:11:31 <_3b> ah, border you mean? 02:11:59 <_3b> wonder if i'm messing up line widths somewhere 02:12:07 yeah, the line should be thicker. forget how that worked, a thick stroke clipped inside I think. 02:12:34 <_3b> i might be changing the width in my code, lemme check 02:12:54 <_3b> nope, guess not 02:13:33 tsuru: no, I'm not aware of one. writing one is somewhere far out on my todo list. at the current rate, development will commence sometime around 2017. 02:15:19 we'll all be manipulating nodes on a wall projected from our iRing(s) by then 02:16:20 probably, but it will a half dozen clicks and keystrokes to select an anchor point and drag it around 02:16:27 ..still take.. jeez. 02:18:17 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 02:23:08 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-62-156.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:30:49 -!- kinnetica [n=kinnetic@208-58-64-106.c3-0.129-ubr4.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 02:33:17 antifuchs: still around? 02:34:20 sunwukong [n=vukung@125-14-81-177.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:36:04 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-187.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:42:07 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:28 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:47:49 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:48:16 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-218-255-225.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:49:58 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 02:53:25 <_3b> hefner: i think my problem is that i'm doing transforms in the wrong place, so the line width didn't get scaled 02:53:50 benny [n=benny@i577A0C9C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:53:53 interesting 02:53:58 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-187.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:12 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:21 evening 02:55:40 anyone here poke at CommonQT yet? 02:55:54 <_3b> ChopperDave: presumably the author did 02:56:57 That's the hope, sure 02:57:31 <_3b> others seem to like it as well 03:01:36 -!- CrazyEddy [n=scoundre@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:03:57 CrazyEddy [n=cabob@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 03:04:54 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 03:10:57 -!- alec [n=alec@pool-96-233-16-99.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:16:46 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 03:16:47 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 03:17:42 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 03:19:52 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-187.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:20:04 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:22:37 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-187.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:01 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:30:28 -!- rolly1975 [n=rory@199.389.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au] has quit ["The computer fell asleep"] 03:37:31 <_3b> hefner: heh, doing the transforms properly gives me the same problem as firefox in the eye :p 03:38:26 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:56 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:40:20 hmm! 03:41:10 what was I doing wrong with the transforms, then? 03:41:22 <_3b> that file seems to be using a draft spec dtd, wonder if something changed 03:41:40 *_3b* might still be doing it incorrectly 03:42:03 <_3b> i just stopped transforming the points using vecto, and give the transform to flash instead 03:42:34 <_3b> didn't expect it to change anything besides line width 03:49:48 Good morning. 03:50:36 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-187.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:51:13 <_3b> i guess i'm using the transform-matrix instead of transform-function, wonder if they get out of sync somewhere 03:51:42 <_3b> ah, or i might be reading them at different times 03:52:43 <_3b> that could be a problem, can change it at random in the vecto commands, think i'd need a new shape in the swf for every new matrix 03:56:03 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 03:56:52 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit [Client Quit] 03:56:59 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 03:59:49 <_3b> hefner: ah, found it... i was using the wrong transform on the clip object 04:00:16 I'd recommend the svg test suite, but I don't recall it being very helpful in this area 04:00:52 <_3b> yeah, i should probably try something like that at some point 04:01:04 -!- alexbobp is now known as socat 04:05:45 -!- socat is now known as alexbobp 04:07:07 -!- cavelife [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:11:26 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 04:16:06 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:16:39 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 04:23:42 rukubites [n=user@114.78.140.153] has joined #lisp 04:24:50 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.143.135] has joined #lisp 04:25:11 Hi all. I am looking to access a web service which answers in text/XML. Which libraries do I need? I believe I need more than PURI, but less than DRAKMA, I hope. 04:25:28 -!- mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:29:51 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit ["KVIrc 3.2.6 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/"] 04:31:27 why not use drakma? 04:32:10 Are you deploying on a platform with extremely limited memory space? 04:34:28 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:34:42 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 04:35:07 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:35:17 drakma pulls a bunch of stuff I don't want to deploy. I just want to visit a url and retrieve the contents as a string. 04:39:48 Not as bad as cl-sparse-matrix though. That thing pulls in the world for a rather trivial sparse matrix implementation. 04:47:24 man 04:47:28 I find it ironic 04:47:40 that people who want to write as little code as possible 04:47:52 also want to avoid using third-party code 04:48:07 what does drakma pull? 04:49:07 rukubites, how do you deploy? .. i basically do sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die, then click a button that does bzip2 then rsyncs .. i don't even care or know about deps. .. the deps. tend to be something i downloaded a long time ago and hang around on my development machine here all the time (i just do svn up, darcs up, git up... once in a while) 04:49:38 svn up darcs up git up? 04:49:39 puri, flexi-streams, usocket, chunga .. something like that i think 04:49:43 ./clbuild update :) 04:50:01 lnostdal: that's much at all. 04:50:03 yeah, i started doing this before clbuild became the norm .. 04:50:16 .. i should probably get with the times though :P 04:50:24 let's see 04:50:38 drakma needs puri, cl-base64, chunga, flexi-streams, usocket, cl+ssl 04:51:14 cl-base64, chunga, and flexi-streams aid in fully supporting HTTP, and HTTP support is probably useful here 04:51:27 bah 04:51:28 usocket, well you don't want to be tied to Lispworks eh? 04:51:39 and cl+ssl, so you can do https too 04:51:41 base64 encoding is half a page of code. you need a library for that? 04:51:45 all those seem pretty fair. 04:51:53 my point exactly 04:51:59 hefner: why reimplement? 04:52:07 subtle bugs abound 04:52:35 clearly, a better solution is to redo the CL spec 04:52:43 ;) 04:52:52 hehe 04:53:00 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:01 yah, can't have libraries around 04:53:16 totally needs to happen someday, though. Seriously. 04:53:18 >_> 04:54:09 ..(use :stuff :but-not-cl) .. ? 04:54:14 or so 04:54:16 heh :) 04:54:25 okay, secretly, I suspect that all these libraries are fantastically inefficient, unreliable, and generally suspect, and I get a warm fuzzy feeling from reimplementing the boring stuff 04:54:34 (use :new-cl) 04:54:41 hefner: thought so :P 04:54:51 hefner: "patches welcome" 04:54:51 all hail the mighty nih 04:55:25 plus, at some point, you're bound to pull in metabang-bind, and I just can't stand for that 04:56:10 metabang-bind? 04:56:23 and then four people's four pet iteration libraries, two and a half different FFIs, and before you know it, you're on IRC complaining about versions of things not matching up and pining for a technological solution 04:56:24 hefner: hey, that looks cool, might be using that now. Thanks! 04:56:56 is that... a joke lib? 04:57:24 hefner: you should download my pet alternative to CLOS for extra lols. 04:57:35 "fuck CLOS, this is the future of OO" 04:57:36 etc 04:57:58 All, the reason why I want to not have something which is too complicated is because my manager likes to keep things simple, and if I add 15 packages to do something simple, he'll get unhappy. Also then I have to check all the licences etc etc. 04:58:02 it is great that it is actually possible to things like that though, sykopomp :) 04:58:11 oh dear 04:58:16 http://failex.blogspot.com/2008/08/dependencies-versus-effort.html 04:58:36 Also, it is a free education if I learn myself how to connect minimally. 04:58:41 lnostdal: I think it's what gives lisp its edge :) 04:58:52 rukubites: then implement from scratch 04:58:58 ok, so it is less complicated to implement everything yourself, rukubites ? 04:59:03 Rather, it is a PAID FOR education. 04:59:04 then you can strip out absolutely everything you want 04:59:10 Of course it is not less complicated. 04:59:13 gonzojive [n=red@c-24-130-53-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:59:19 There is a balance though. 04:59:31 open source fairy is not pleased 04:59:47 worse is better, gentlemen. 04:59:49 For example I don't want to do uri stuff or raw socket stuff, however learning the underlying technique to stream http is useful. 04:59:52 you've already lost. 05:00:07 I've expressed my feelings on this issue in graphical form, so you do not even need to read the words necessarily, at the preceding link 05:00:12 worse has never been better 05:00:18 the essays are bull :P 05:01:47 hmm .. you don't want to do raw socket stuff, but http requires it, right? .. you --> http stuff --> sockets 05:02:10 I think I will just look at drakma for example code. :-) 05:02:32 so it begins 05:02:39 :) 05:02:58 rukubites: have you considered popping drakma and its dependencies into a libs/ dir and forgetting about updates? ;) 05:03:13 I do that with a few libraries already. 05:03:14 is the same 05:03:24 e.g. postmodern, 5am 05:03:35 as long as you never report bugs 05:03:54 SOmetimes updating code is the worst thing. 05:03:59 Have been burnt so many times with slime 05:04:14 a less irrational argument might be that portable CL doesn't provide sufficient facilities to do a good job of many fairly basic things, nor are there ubiquitous libraries to fill these gaps, so it follows that libraries doing higher level things are probably riddled with faults from their shaky foundation 05:04:50 don't forget to mention that clojure is the solution. 05:05:02 there are no unshaky foundations, programs dance on the head of a pin 05:05:02 ;) 05:05:14 clojure and its fanboys can rot in hell 05:05:19 hahaha 05:05:21 hehe 05:05:48 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-122-215.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:04 "..java .. dragged them halfway from c++ to lisp.." or something .. 05:06:31 clojure :-D 05:07:03 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:08:18 seriously though. pathnames and CL file IO is minefield that ought to be avoided entirely, libraries for network protocols are written using a half dozen different socket libraries and you have to half rewrite them anyway to get any sensible IO multiplexing 05:08:37 ..the unicode disaster.. 05:09:08 an ever-growing proliferation of weird stream implementations, with unknown performance characters 05:09:43 hm, things suck .. but at least we know(?) .. say, unicode isn't (or wasn't) so hot elsewhere either last time i looked 05:09:54 who wants to get involved in standardization anyway? 05:10:24 one nice thing about unicode is that if you pretend it doesn't exist, it's actually less likely to blow up in your face than if you go around half-assedly trying to do the right thing 05:10:48 (i've had very little trouble with unicode when using lisp/sbcl actually .. just make sure i use it everywhere; db, app-code and front-end (web)) 05:12:23 anyway, I'm not interested in standardization. I'm going stand on the top of my hill, ranting incoherently, firing my shotgun, and writing unportable code until I stoke out. 05:12:44 *lnostdal* never uses streams 05:12:46 rock on 05:13:18 hehe 05:14:20 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 05:15:46 Hmmmm, drakma's HTTP-REQUEST function is... complicated. 05:15:52 hefner: are you ktilton? 05:16:11 anyways, random question: so it turns out FP is pretty useful for making your hello world run on multiple cores. Is there any interesting stuff out there about what kind of OO stuff can be done to make parallelizing easier, too? 05:16:12 Oh, my, what an insult. 05:16:24 hahaha 05:16:39 maybe I should start making videos. 05:16:39 Pegazus [n=awefawe@host184.201-253-221.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 05:16:48 on the beach 05:17:02 nuclear holocaust? 05:17:12 :( 05:17:18 beach, can you carry hefner on your shoulders? 05:17:21 (good morning everyone) 05:17:29 hello tic_ 05:17:35 tic_: nobody would get the joke. 05:17:45 beach, those who frequent cll do 05:18:02 tic_: they would have to recognize me. 05:18:09 rukubites, (multiple-value-bind (body) (drakma:http-request "http://google.com") (princ body)) ;; i think there are more examples on the drakma site :) 05:18:28 beach, now you've lost me. aren't we talking about Mr. Dataflow? 05:18:50 tic_: now *you* lost *me*. 05:19:00 tic_: I think we should drop it. 05:19:11 Yes. Yes, a good idea. 05:19:37 lnostdal: rukubites is trying to reimplement it with fewer features and fewer lib deps, not use it 05:19:48 S11001001, right :P 05:21:19 lnostdal: why m-v-b?... 05:21:45 sykopomp, maybe he wants to bind the return code later .. but yeah, don't need it if he's only interested in the body 05:22:05 at least i _think_ drakma used to return multiple values .. heh 05:23:07 it's probably a good idea to check for 200 though 05:25:56 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:27:06 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-130-53-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:27:57 lnostdal: http-request seems easy to use, just M-. it for kicks... 05:28:18 yeah, edi actually writes doc-strings 05:29:11 http-request api should be in the core language nowadays 05:29:26 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:39 or at least the pre-requisities to implement a non-ssl http-request 05:30:12 that undermines any meaningful notion of a "core language" 05:30:13 I use doc-strings too. Actually I use documentation-template. 05:30:19 what if you find a bug but don't want to upgrade your implementation? 05:30:51 drakma uses multiple values. 05:31:59 (i'm not saying it would be nice .. but maybe it would be not-so-nice also .. x)) 05:32:27 ugh, i meant; not saying it wouldn't be 05:32:33 lnostdal, this is more eloquent to just get the html body: (let (*header-stream*) 05:32:33 (values (http-request "http://cliki.net"))) 05:32:33 05:32:37 need coffee .. 05:33:25 hefner: many things in the current cl standard undermine the notion of a core language 05:33:34 streams should be a part of the core language 05:34:38 that's fine; my army of robots will crush CL beneath their cold, metallic feet. 05:34:45 :) 05:35:36 not sure what you mean, anyway - streams are a part of CL - but I see the folly of entering into a debate about the definition of "core language" 05:37:42 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["Off"] 05:38:20 core as in somewhat small center that includes the needed facilities to implement most relevant features to a language 05:38:30 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 05:38:43 or core from the point of view of today's libraries 05:39:10 The whole issue is just that lisp programmers almost always want to roll their own. 05:39:13 i.e. how many libraries need a specific (same) set of well-known libraries to function 05:39:27 It is the nature of the beast. 05:39:35 I will concede that in 2009, an HTTP client would be nice to have out of the box. 05:39:46 *heh* i do too. 05:39:50 Is there one in alisp? 05:39:56 however, the list of "things that would be nice to have out of the box" never ends, once you start making one. 05:40:05 there is no nature to a beast, it's a cultural perception we have created ourselves 05:40:47 guaqua: perfect, then - we can argue this all night, secure in the knowledge that there's no correct answer to interfere 05:41:17 at some point (i hope) there will be a standardization. up to that point we should just keep building. the libraries we create today will be the basis on what tomorrow's standardization will be based on 05:41:33 hefner: all morning, and no, i have no time for that :) 05:41:48 "the libraries of today, are the standardization of tomorrow" ( ? ) 05:41:52 hefner: that remark was directed at rukubites, notat you 05:42:13 great phrase... 05:42:21 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 05:42:22 except that it's your phrase 05:42:44 anyway, it's a great phrase :) 05:42:53 haha :) 05:43:14 nice that someone found an idea there 05:43:19 :) 05:44:37 Hey, s-http-client seems lighter than drakma. 05:44:45 Drakma had a dependency on CFFI somewhere, a nono. 05:45:15 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 05:45:18 the cffi dep. is for cl+ssl 05:45:31 so if you don't do https it isn't used 05:45:33 no worries, I've granted CFFI an official pardon 05:46:02 although if a competing FFI library arose to challenge it, I'd send them both to the gallows out of spite. 05:46:23 it was possible to compile hunchentoot without ssl support before .. no dep. on cl+ssl and thus cffi then .. maybe the same is true for drakma 05:46:25 s-http-client has its own set of dependencies completely different from any library beginning with "s-" 05:47:24 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:47:52 Yes, but they are small. 05:48:18 puri-1.5.1 s-base64 s-http-client s-sysdeps s-utils 05:48:53 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Client Quit] 05:49:14 pjb [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has joined #lisp 05:49:34 rukubites: this is your chance to submit your first drakma patch, making that dependency conditional 05:51:33 lichtblau: I think I'll just stick with s-http-client. It does what I want for this application, and isn't too heavy. 05:54:08 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 05:54:58 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 05:56:02 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has joined #lisp 05:56:41 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-79.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:57:08 Hello 06:02:50 hello 06:02:56 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-94-2.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:33 just curious, when do we expect git and the bug tracker to be officially supported? 06:03:51 in? 06:03:56 or by? 06:03:58 sbcl 06:05:43 from what I understand, git is used by cvs is still the central repo. also there are is launchpad but its not listed on the official website 06:06:35 *change by to but in the previous sentence 06:07:42 -!- rukubites [n=user@114.78.140.153] has left #lisp 06:08:20 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-75-221.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:48 Ragnaroek [i=54a64a08@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6ad84692251d39c8] has joined #lisp 06:11:09 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-75-221.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:13:24 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:16:09 msingh`` [n=user@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:17:02 Any way to translate this to CL: float x = something; int i = *(int*)&x; ? 06:17:59 Why would you want to translate meaningless expressions? 06:18:24 hm i think i might have found it, decode-float 06:18:47 Yes, I was about to propose it. 06:18:59 Also integer-decode-float 06:19:11 pjb: its not meaningless its part of the famous invqsrt algo http://www.lomont.org/Math/Papers/2003/InvSqrt.pdf 06:19:15 cheers :) 06:19:37 ;-) 06:20:05 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:20:32 That C code is heavily implementation dependant... 06:22:17 yeah i'm just gonna play with a lisp translation out of curiousity 06:22:18 pjb: if C specifies floats should be IEEE floating point format, and big/low endian is not.... 06:22:29 <_3b> isn't it undefined? 06:23:00 <_3b> reading from the wrong pointer type that is, regardless of bit layouts 06:23:02 msingh``: the lisp translation should be safer. 06:23:19 _3b: strictly, yes. 06:24:18 There would be problem on non IEEE machine or on machines with different bytesex for integers and floating points (which may occur with separate floating point coprocessors). 06:24:30 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:30 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a64a08@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6ad84692251d39c8] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 06:25:14 Ragnaroek [i=54a64a08@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ba84c74c35c3a41f] has joined #lisp 06:25:36 drakej [n=Steven@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:55 -!- drakej [n=Steven@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:29:31 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-2414.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 06:31:19 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6F7F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:32 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-30.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 06:34:34 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:34:48 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:35:10 -!- psheldr [n=Miranda@217.13.173.57] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:36:41 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 06:38:00 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:44:35 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 06:44:52 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-122-215.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:45:51 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 06:47:37 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 06:50:34 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [] 06:55:14 ASau [n=user@host19-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:55:29 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-126-133.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:56:00 good morning 07:02:01 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:02:38 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:06:08 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 07:06:44 tombom [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 07:16:08 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 07:17:11 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:17:30 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:20:21 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 07:20:40 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:20:45 drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-204.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:20:46 *lnostdal* mumble .. why isn't the oom-killer on linux more eager 07:20:58 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:21:13 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-205-8.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:21:47 lnostdal: just disable it... but then, you need to tweak your lisp 07:22:33 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:24:19 nono, i want it to kill stuff faster or earlier .. really; after eating 2gb of memory and all my swap space linux may start killing my processes -- it's fine, honest :P 07:24:23 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@125-14-81-177.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:24:24 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-60.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:24:57 lnostdal: with disabled OOM killer you get allocation refusal (which, unhandled, often ends with the app that tried to allocate memory dying) 07:25:08 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a64a08@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ba84c74c35c3a41f] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 07:25:11 oh .. .. hm 07:25:12 sunwukong [n=vukung@125-14-81-177.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:26:02 lnostdal: the problem is, that various lisps have certain problems with overcommit disabled, due to certain things in Linux VM 07:26:12 ok 07:26:14 Ragnaroek [i=54a64a08@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-02b50b591d445ce6] has joined #lisp 07:27:23 non-fixed allocation patches for SBCL would help with that, I think, but they didn't apply to newest SBCL 07:29:05 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:31:51 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 07:31:55 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:32:26 Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has joined #lisp 07:33:46 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:35:35 lnostdal: Did you try turning vm.oom_kill_allocating_task to on? 07:35:43 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.243.44] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:36:16 i'm running a vanilla debian kernel, vy` .. i'm not sure what the defaults are .. 07:38:14 lnostdal: AFAIK, linux tries to find a victim by default and this *finding* operations takes much more than it is expected to be to. Turning vm.oom_kill_allocating_task on makes linux to kill the very application that caused the OOM at that moment, in other words, no searching is involved and performs pretty much faster than the default choice. 07:39:02 ok 07:40:46 It'll randonmly kill your applications 07:41:04 that's not good .. but they are all basically dead anyway 07:41:34 Huh? If it's your lisp process that's gone havoc, it shouldn't kill your firefox 07:41:55 just because firefox was the process that happened to try to alloc new memory 07:42:01 i mean, i can not use the lisp process or the firefox process anyway 07:42:38 you can't use them because you're trashing already? in that case it might make more sense to turn off overcommit 07:42:41 tcr: I don't think it'll behave in a random fashion: http://rafb.net/p/HhnFBW98.html 07:43:07 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-129-79.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:43:37 vy: Of course it's not random, but it appears to a user to be pretty much random 07:43:41 yeah, heavy trashing, lichtblau .. it happened once when i was away and the irc log showed hours and hours of me being not online .. 07:44:33 i'm playing around with threads and wait-conditions in sbcl .. it seems to trigger this condition 07:44:52 ..but i cannot reproduce it reliably 07:45:39 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:47:13 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:36 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:48:12 i'll try changing some of those options .. doing the RTFM thing now .. :) 07:49:59 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:50:32 tcr: Isn't it the other way around? :P 07:51:38 attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.132.189.132] has joined #lisp 07:58:42 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:58:48 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-117-181.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 07:59:05 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:59:51 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:28 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 08:02:45 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:02:55 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:37 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:04:04 mega1 [n=mega@53d8275f.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:04:53 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:04:53 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable085.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:04:53 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:05:09 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 08:05:09 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable085.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 08:05:09 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:18 HG` [n=wells@91.111.13.16] has joined #lisp 08:06:48 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:08:16 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:16 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:10:31 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:11:13 nostoi [n=nostoi@187.Red-79-147-43.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:15 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.243.44] has joined #lisp 08:13:54 -!- vy` [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:16:00 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:20 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:17:58 puf_huyphu [n=nguyenhu@115.73.32.160] has joined #lisp 08:18:31 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:18:37 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:46 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88.96.24.54] has joined #lisp 08:28:45 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:29:32 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:29:45 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:30:20 vy [n=user@wr527.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 08:32:25 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@novelletto.bio.uniroma2.it] has joined #lisp 08:32:38 hello 08:33:21 hello fe[nl]ix 08:33:27 hi madnificent 08:34:00 -!- puf_huyphu [n=nguyenhu@115.73.32.160] has left #lisp 08:35:41 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@187.Red-79-147-43.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 08:36:02 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-2414.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:37:00 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 08:38:03 Good morning. 08:38:49 hello spiaggia 08:38:54 hey, spiaggia. 08:42:41 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-79-67.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:45:03 I hope I get +o in here one day. 08:46:42 ok, now the weirdness has started happening that eventually eats up my memory .. *waits in anticipation* .. i tried setting vm.overcommit_memory to 2 ... 08:47:46 i'm still here .. yay .. heh :) 08:47:53 Quadrescence: ? 08:50:03 madnificent: Yep. I'd feel accomplished if I had +o 08:50:30 wow, I'm getting a new edge :D 08:50:35 ** dinovo edge 08:51:35 holycow [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:41 um, why wouldn you use sane ulimits to processes instead of depending on/tweaking the oom killer (which really can't make an informed decision anyway)? 09:00:22 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@novelletto.bio.uniroma2.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 09:08:46 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a64a08@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-02b50b591d445ce6] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 09:09:11 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 09:10:26 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-220.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:11:19 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@p88-n238.kthopen.kth.se] has joined #lisp 09:12:33 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/07_fd.htm Evil. Absolutely evil. 09:13:39 Plasticism [n=plastici@salle007.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has joined #lisp 09:14:09 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:14:28 -!- Plasticism [n=plastici@salle007.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 09:14:55 Plasticism [n=plastici@salle007.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has joined #lisp 09:15:13 sponzor [i=sponzor@unaffiliated/sponzor] has joined #lisp 09:15:19 -!- sponzor [i=sponzor@unaffiliated/sponzor] has left #lisp 09:15:19 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@novelletto.bio.uniroma2.it] has joined #lisp 09:15:37 hi 09:16:12 anyone to help me on some (quick) hack ? 09:16:30 more specific, please? :) 09:17:09 in a macro def I need to get a list element and concatenate it with a string 09:17:45 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-74-99.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 09:17:48 you want to concatenate a list and a string? :P 09:17:58 basically, what I need looks like this "hello-" concatenated to '(world) => '(hello-world) 09:18:00 is the list element a string, too ? 09:18:05 no 09:18:18 that's the tricky part 09:18:52 oh. So, you're looking for SYMBOL-NAME and INTERN. 09:19:01 (intern (concatenate 'string "HELLO-" (symbol-name (car '(world))))) 09:19:25 wonderful ! 09:19:38 or just (format NIL "HELLO-~A" (car '(world))) 09:19:38 antifuchs, memo from tsuru: quick, tiny css mockup using a bit of what you already have: http://www.endparen.com/tsuru/sketch/boink-test.html 09:19:43 it seems to be exactly what I needed 09:19:52 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 09:20:02 thanks, minion. neat (-: 09:20:15 thank you a lot antifuchs 09:21:40 (intern (format nil "~:@(hello-~A~)" (car '(world)))) *cough cough* 09:22:14 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:23:07 spiaggia: did you see my paste yesterday purporting to demonstrate that menu items with missing arguments worked in ESAs? 09:23:49 Xof you may interess me, this is exactly what I'm trying to do 09:24:37 sykopomp: (intern (format nil "~A-~A" 'hello (car '(world)))) 09:24:47 http://paste.lisp.org/display/79005 09:25:09 Xof: No, I didn't see that. Thanks! 09:25:52 michaelw: crowdsourced genetic programming is the paradigm of the Tomorrow. 09:25:53 :D 09:26:46 I think cases like this actually call for things that aren't vulnerable to odd settings of printer variables 09:26:51 Xof: I think I know the explanation. They are not using a completely up-to-date version of CLIM. Thanks! I won't update it now, but I'll do that for next time. 09:27:12 s/CLIM/McCLIM/ 09:27:30 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-74-99.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:27:34 (intern (with-output-to-string (s) (write-string (symbol-name 'hello) s) (write-char #\- s) (write-string (symbol-name (car '(world))) s))) 09:27:34 sykopomp: in doubt, I think that first answering with just a pointer to the right functions would have been the right level of answer towards someone connecting from a computer room of a university. 09:28:00 Xof: This good news, and it means that I can now write the Gsharp commands the way there were supposed to be written. 09:28:58 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 09:29:09 kuwabara: you have a point, although this was pretty trivial -- somehow, I don't think I'm helping them cheat their way into a diploma, and it's something a little odd to do (involves messing around with symbol-name) 09:29:24 but again, I see your point :) 09:29:43 spiaggia: it's possible that it's still broken for non-ESAs, which should be addressed too 09:35:17 -!- drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-204.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 09:35:28 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-204.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:37:15 kuwabara: it's my firm hope that giving canonical usage examples helps improve the quality of code in the future. if a student needs help with a homework problem this trivial, that student will need help with a much less trivial homework problem very soon, and then we can still refuse to give it 09:37:44 antifuchs: how's the git repo? 09:38:26 mega1: I'm starting the conversion today (got busy with other stuff yesterday, sorry). saw your note about the other files, thanks 09:39:47 antifuchs: makes sense. 09:40:24 borism [n=boris@195-50-200-111-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 09:41:15 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:09 mega1: were you actually messing around with sheeple, by the way? 09:42:41 sykopomp: you're right, I think I'm first gonna try to understand the most simple answer, which also seems to be the most clear in my code 09:43:27 sykopomp: not yet. I spent some time on a design issue, realized that prototypes could help and then I found sheeple. 09:43:51 oh? What's the design issue? 09:46:23 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88.96.24.54] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:47:00 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:47:02 06:59:13 There is a clos object representing a neural network with values of neurons, weights and some other parameters. To be able to use the "same" network in different situations I'd like to create another object that shares with the original instance some of the slot bindings: typically (but not necessarily) everything except the values of neurons.06:59:31 Sounds awfully like prototype based inheritance ot me. 09:47:26 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.143.135] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:47:31 short discussion that follows in http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/09.04.22 09:48:04 manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:48:04 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:48:20 I think it might be an entertaining hack to support prototype-based objects in PCL 09:49:26 custom slot allocation was suggested 09:49:54 mega1: something like (defsheep =neuron= () ((weight 5 :manipulator weight))) (clone (=neuron=) ()) (clone (=neuron=) ((weight 2))) etc? :) 09:50:34 (setf (weight =neuron=) 3), then the first clone will have weight 3, but the second will stay at 2 09:51:32 (defsheep is just a macro that wraps CLONE and lets you easily redefine by re-evaluating the form) 09:51:34 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@novelletto.bio.uniroma2.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 09:51:46 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:52:49 Ragnaroek [i=8f5df985@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-19999140cbed5a66] has joined #lisp 09:52:56 custom slot allocation probably works for your use case but isn't so hot for dynamic add/remove of slots 09:53:15 sykopomp: there is a case that is yet uncovered (setf (weight child) 3) changing the weight of =neuron= to 3 09:53:17 you can't really specify which slots you want to delegate, since the assumption is that if one object clones another, it shares -all- its properties and messages. 09:53:35 yup, that's the rub 09:54:18 mega1: that doesn't really fit with the way this works, no. Setting a property in a child only changes it for the child and all the child's descendants. 09:54:33 it's not a two-way setf relationship :) 09:56:16 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@novelletto.bio.uniroma2.it] has joined #lisp 09:56:21 ntoll [n=ntoll@87.236.135.147] has joined #lisp 09:57:43 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:57:46 Xof: I don't know how it would go to try and hack prototype behavior into PCL. It sounds like a pretty bad idea :\ 09:57:53 hello 09:58:09 it's been bad enough trying to derive a similar thing from closette. 09:58:15 kami-: morning 09:58:34 I think that starting from closette is almost always the wrong idea 09:59:38 I'm finding that more and more :) 09:59:53 I don't think closette actually implements http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/07_fd.htm 10:00:09 attila_lendvai: I have my dojo based layout working with 1 component for each type of dojo widget. 10:00:14 strangely enough 10:00:17 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:50 Xof: I've been meaning to start snooping at PCL more for ideas. Is there some kind of doc or code guide on how to crawl through the thing? It's huge, and I don't know where the entry points are or which way the flow goes. 10:02:20 attila_lendvai: one problem is that some subclass components just add some xhtml attributes to the rendering of their supers. 10:03:37 rolly1975 [n=rory@124.b.007.mel.iprimus.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:06:22 sykopomp: it depends on what kind of thing you're looking for. One thing is that it actually implements the MOP, not just bits of it. Another is the cacheing strategy for effective methods. Another is the stuff to compute a method function from a defmethod. Quite a lot of it is concerned with actually being able to bootstrap this 10:06:28 attila_lendvai: I couldn't figure out how to add some xhtml attributes to be used in the render method of the super (because of the
syntax 10:07:16 Xof: that's what I see in the code. I'm talking really about becoming generally familiar with how PCL works and how it does things. 10:07:40 the caching strategy, whatever it is, is really damn amazing, I have to say. 10:08:02 in sbcl, accessors are as fast as slot-value :\ 10:08:29 the cacheing strategy is largely identical to that described in http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/kiczales90efficient.html 10:08:37 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@p88-n238.kthopen.kth.se] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 10:08:40 sykopomp: faster, usually 10:09:07 oh, thank you 10:11:43 Xof: thanks, I'll read through this. 10:12:10 Xof: one thing I'm stuck on with sheeple right now is how to properly do http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/07_fd.htm 10:12:13 you could also look at the sbcl internals manual 10:12:29 sykopomp: why is that hard? 10:12:50 Xof: probably because I started thinking about it hwen I'm really sleepless and uncreative :\ 10:13:02 (apart from the fact that I have no idea what I'm doing) 10:13:47 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:13:59 I think I'll go sleep, actually. Have a good night. Thanks for the paper and the pointer to the manual :) 10:15:36 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@138.246.7.137] has joined #lisp 10:17:05 tfb [n=tfb@212.183.134.64] has joined #lisp 10:17:56 The-Kenny [n=moritz@80.135.178.175] has joined #lisp 10:18:02 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:18:16 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:25:33 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 10:31:34 it it possible to look up the syntax type of a character portably at run time? 10:32:04 s/^it/is/ 10:32:04 -!- manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:32:28 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:33:14 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-79-67.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:33:28 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-79-67.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:33:49 No, it isn't. 10:34:18 The new revision of my WITH-READTABLE-ITERATOR CDR will propose to also add a GET-CHARACTER-SYNTAX function. 10:34:23 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:34:29 thanks 10:34:52 Is it a particular syntax type you want to test for? 10:35:16 You can do portable kludges. 10:36:15 cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has joined #lisp 10:36:42 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.143.135] has joined #lisp 10:40:37 "constituent or not" was my question, is there a kludge for that? 10:40:49 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442133.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 10:41:01 (But I shouldn't have tried using CL's idea of syntax types anyway, so I implemented it differently now.) 10:41:23 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@novelletto.bio.uniroma2.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 10:42:13 -!- rolly1975 [n=rory@124.b.007.mel.iprimus.net.au] has quit ["The computer fell asleep"] 10:44:23 I think you can test for that with something like (or (get-macro-char ...) (let ((*readtable* slightly-modified-standard-readtable)) (frob (read-from-string "xaAxa")))) 10:44:59 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@novelletto.bio.uniroma2.it] has joined #lisp 10:45:19 where slightly-modified-standard-readtable is standard-readtable + (set-syntax-from-char #\x #\x slightly-modified-standard-readtable (copy-readtable nil)) 10:46:25 This would work except when #\x is of syntax-type invalid 10:48:21 -!- HG` [n=wells@91.111.13.16] has quit [Client Quit] 10:48:26 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:48:59 -!- ASau [n=user@host19-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["Off!"] 10:51:12 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:51:31 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-79-67.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:53:53 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 10:56:21 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:58:07 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 10:59:04 If (not (cons-type-p cdr)) is true, how can then (type/= (type-intersection (specifier-type 'cons) cdr) *empty-type*) be also ever true? 11:00:30 ah if CDR is (specifier-type 'list) 11:02:17 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:03:02 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:06:03 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:08:34 -!- Plasticism [n=plastici@salle007.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 11:11:31 QinGW` [n=user@218.241.188.34] has joined #lisp 11:12:42 prabuinet [n=prabu@117.193.193.174] has joined #lisp 11:13:06 hi all, how to convert from clsql float to clsql:date 11:14:35 clsql query returns float for date field, how to convert it back to clsql:date 11:16:44 In 40 minutes, I give the fourth seminar about CL to my lab. I'll talk about method combinations. 11:17:18 spiaggia: Record it, upload to youtube 11:17:59 Good, idea, but too much work. 11:18:41 booo 11:19:09 spiaggia: have some student do it 11:20:10 We don't habitually have students do work like that, but I'll consider it for next time. 11:20:20 plage [n=user@147.210.9.207] has joined #lisp 11:20:46 Now if this Wifi connection could just stay up for the duration of my talk, that would be even better. 11:21:47 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:22:22 Heh. 11:22:51 i2unn3r [n=I2unn3r@83.167.116.243] has joined #lisp 11:23:08 -!- i2unn3r [n=I2unn3r@83.167.116.243] has left #lisp 11:24:47 plage: It's imperative a video is made. 11:24:51 I need inspiration! 11:24:57 -!- Pegazus [n=awefawe@host184.201-253-221.telecom.net.ar] has quit [] 11:25:13 Quadrescence: You should have let me know a few weeks ago :-) 11:25:47 spiaggia: A few weeks ago, a few minutes ago, there's no real difference. 11:27:43 cracki [n=cracki@43-029.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:28:04 Quadrescence: Thank you, I'll apply that principle to get all the stuff done that needs to be before Tuesday morning. 11:28:22 :) 11:36:50 -!- prabuinet [n=prabu@117.193.193.174] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:36:55 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@novelletto.bio.uniroma2.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:37:38 prabuinet [n=prabu@117.193.197.124] has joined #lisp 11:40:31 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:47:58 -!- prabuinet [n=prabu@117.193.197.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:48:16 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:52:56 plutonas [n=plutonas@130.235.50.243] has joined #lisp 11:53:43 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:40 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:10 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:58:28 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:00:41 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:00:46 HAH, it works! 12:01:24 Say hello to the nice people of the LaBRI! 12:01:42 hello, nice people of the LaBRI! 12:02:02 mvilleneuve: Marie says to tell you hello 12:02:14 hi Marie! 12:02:25 minion: Where is mvilleneuve? 12:02:26 behind you! 12:02:34 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@130.235.50.243] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:02:38 minion: you're lying 12:02:38 what's up? 12:02:53 OK, I'll start my presentation now. I might be back! 12:03:43 -!- QinGW` [n=user@218.241.188.34] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:03:55 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:21 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@89.223.157.206] has joined #lisp 12:04:44 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.132.189.132] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:04:54 tfb- [n=tfb@212.183.134.64] has joined #lisp 12:05:37 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.134.64] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:05:47 -!- tfb- is now known as tfb 12:06:07 moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 12:07:52 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 12:08:00 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.134.64] has quit [Client Quit] 12:09:52 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442133.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 12:09:54 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:36 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:10:49 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:13:16 -!- cracki [n=cracki@43-029.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:15:10 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:15:50 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 12:18:25 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-168-132-106.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:16 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 12:19:24 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 12:19:30 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:20:37 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:28:06 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:28:09 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:30:45 yvdriess_ [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:31:43 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:32:28 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:33:25 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:34:41 rlpowell_ [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 12:35:08 vy` [n=user@wr527.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 12:35:50 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:35:50 -!- rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 12:35:50 -!- vy [n=user@wr527.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 12:36:13 kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:41 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:38:23 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:39:39 elias` [n=me@cs78208074.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:39:46 lagenar [n=lucas@190.178.192.248] has joined #lisp 12:42:03 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:42:08 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 12:44:03 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-126-133.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["leaving"] 12:45:09 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:14 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:45:20 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:18 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-74-99.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 12:52:18 -!- vy` [n=user@wr527.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has left #lisp 12:57:21 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 13:01:39 antgreen1 [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:01:49 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@125-14-81-177.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit ["bye"] 13:01:58 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:58 -!- antgreen1 [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 13:02:17 It's over! 13:02:19 -!- plage [n=user@147.210.9.207] has left #lisp 13:02:58 antgreen1 [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:04:00 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:04:40 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:07:27 spiaggia: how was it? 13:08:29 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:45 kami-: pretty good if I may say so myself. I only had enough time to do the standard method combination, but they seemed to get it. 13:09:06 kami-: and there were plenty of good questions which is always pleasing to the speaker. 13:09:20 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student167-193.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 13:09:41 in which year are they? 13:10:23 kami-: These are researchers of the LaBRI, so they are from 25 to 65 years old or so :) 13:10:52 spiaggia: oh. CS students, I thought. 13:10:58 nope 13:11:24 spiaggia: why do they want to learn lisp? 13:11:31 kami-: I decided to give these talks because 1) the seminar slots are rarely filled and 2) the people here who know Lisp learned it 20 years ago who learned it from McCarthy (I exaggerate just a little) 13:11:46 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@87.236.135.147] has quit ["this is not a quit message"] 13:11:58 kami-: every CS researcher wants to learn everything. It is just a question of available time to do so. 13:12:53 spiaggia: was the talk in French or English? 13:12:58 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 13:24:40 moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 13:25:46 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 13:28:57 kami-: French 13:29:13 spiaggia: AW, the video would have been great 13:29:21 cracki [n=cracki@43-029.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:29:29 mejja [n=user@85.229.182.246] has joined #lisp 13:30:05 spiaggia: I could have learned method-combination AND improved my French! 13:30:09 apparently nikodemus has been resurrected 13:31:05 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:31:59 -!- cracki [n=cracki@43-029.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Client Quit] 13:32:49 what's going on with sbcl-devel today? Everytime I look at my mails, the inbox is full of SBCL stuff. 13:32:58 it's nearly freeze time 13:33:01 lichtblau: wait for Xof's (: 13:33:12 I need to work out how to get these patches out of git 13:33:14 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 13:33:42 *froydnj* wishes for a better vcs for sbcl 13:34:32 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 13:35:48 Xof: other than 'git sbcl-export'? 13:35:52 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@89.223.157.206] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:36:06 I'm looking forward to the days of SBCL 1.0.40.68cbbaa0. 13:36:18 mega1: no, that would probably do, but this is the first time I've tried to do that 13:36:19 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@89.132.189.132] has joined #lisp 13:41:21 Xof: git show works fairly well for individual comits 13:41:53 mega1: what does git sbcl-export do? 13:42:22 exports to cvs 13:42:33 [alias] sbcl-export = cvsexportcommit -w /home/yourname/sbcl-cvs -v 13:42:50 documented in sbcl/doc/GIT-FOR* 13:42:50 mega1: ah, like that. Quite cool 13:44:35 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-74-99.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:45:00 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:45:52 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-173.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 13:46:45 kreuter: Herep? 13:47:11 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:49:38 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:54:16 tcr: yes 13:54:55 cracki [n=cracki@134.130.183.101] has joined #lisp 13:56:07 kreuter: My posting to sbcl-devel hasn't arrived yet (at least for me), basically I reported that issue with make-dispatch-macro-character, too, and got a patch for it. 13:56:09 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 13:56:44 kreuter: (In fact, it's a series of cleanup patches, and if you look at them, please ignore the one that tries to inline make-dispatch-macro-character; I have no idea what I thought at that time.) 13:57:02 a series of patches just for m-d-m-c? 13:57:50 kreuter: Eh, no, for reader.lisp (http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.devel/12399/focus=12401) 14:00:21 I see. Christophe opposes the change. oh well. 14:00:36 as usual, there's no use. 14:01:20 I think it's implicitly there as I wrote in my reply to Xof in that older thread 14:01:54 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:01:55 kreuter: sorry. I have no objection to a function to clear the dispatch macro table 14:02:08 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:02:42 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has quit [] 14:03:05 it seems to me entirely appropriate to have a restart on the error to clear 14:03:14 I also don't have an objection to a documented continue restart and a documented condition type, so that it's reasonably possible to write portable-in-practice code. 14:03:25 Has anyone tried developing full apps in common lisp and then deplying it to others who may not have lisp experience? I'm kinda thinking stuff like the distribution of emacs and all, and how is that done when a "lisp compiler" may not be on the system. I know it has ./configure, make, and make install - but looked at the files and they are pretty complex. 14:03:36 but arbitrarily throwing away existing data where that's not what the standard says? Why is that a good idea? 14:03:54 Xof: I don't agree that having a restart would be portable, since you'd only need or be able to handle it that way on SBCL. 14:03:55 TDT: I've never had an issue in practice. 14:04:08 and the preponderance of other implementations don't error, but clear the table. 14:04:27 TDT: just provide a Makefile with an install option that copies a trampoline script 14:04:29 kreuter: (handler-bind (#+sbcl (already-exists #'continue)) (make-dispatch-macro-character #\#)) 14:04:51 and the preponderance of other implementations is irrelevant in this argument if it's not a unanimity 14:05:00 for me, at least 14:05:11 Down with makefiles and autolose. Just write a bash or shell script. 14:05:17 also for PRINCIPLES in the top-level directory of the source code 14:05:51 ok. by my way of looking at things, we just inherited a random behavior from ye old CMUCL. 14:06:53 moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 14:06:56 dlowe: trampoline script, hmm, interesting never heard of that will have to check that out - thanks 14:08:42 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:15 I'm deploying CL apps, but I wouldn't ever ship emacs with those, so I'm guessing that you're talking about a different meaning of "deploying" than I would. 14:11:28 lichtblau: I was using emacs as an example 14:12:06 emacs is somewhat special in that it's the one app that drags along its lisp compiler that nobody gripes about. 14:12:09 lichtblau: I just mean being able to write something and give it to someone else able to run...the whole deployment of CL apps is something I haven't dealt with at all yet, but sometime may want to. 14:12:14 kreuter: ok, sure, but that doesn't absolve the need for arguing _for_ the behaviour you want 14:12:20 mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has joined #lisp 14:12:25 pkhuong: autolose, I agree. I'd keep makefile though. At a certain, basic level, they feel more manageable (and I guess less prone to inter-os differences) than shell 14:12:34 why is it convenient to be able to zap a dispatch macro character in one go? 14:12:49 TDT: Why not simply distribute finished image? 14:12:51 So when you do a ./configure, make, and make install with emacs it's building the lisp compiler, then compiling the lisp (elc files), then moving them..essentially? 14:12:54 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-130-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:12:55 specifically with the make-dispatch-macro-character operator? 14:13:06 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-130-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:13:14 TDT: I don't think Lisp is special in this regard. Build a setup.exe that extracts everything (or a tarball/whatever for other OSes), add a start menu entry, done. 14:13:27 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-74-99.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:13:46 -!- stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:13:47 Xof: hang on a second. 14:13:51 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:14:03 p_l: So you mean actually running the lisp through the sbcl compile options, and just give the executable out? Does it include all the shared libraries and all? 14:14:29 The trampoline approach is valid, although I'm using a C program to demonize stuff rather than a shell script. And that's only because I can't hack the allogro runtime. With SBCL and CCL, I'd just change main() to frob argc, argv, etc before entering the Lisp. 14:14:36 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-130-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:14:39 stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:39 TDT: Shared libraries you can place in some "resource directory", with your start function doing apriopriate initializations 14:15:50 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:16:06 then, standard install procedures apply 14:16:06 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 14:16:10 -!- stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 14:16:11 (for chosen platform) 14:16:51 Hmm, k k, I'll have to give this a try. My skill level with lisp in general is still pretty low for now though :) 14:17:29 btw, I just found that someone had scavenged CL for VMS 14:17:38 stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:43 You could wait until you have something to distribute to someone else before worrying about that. 14:17:46 Where should I place a DEFKNOWN, and a DEFTRANSFORM for SB-INT:PROPER-LIST-OF-LENGTH-P? 14:18:21 pkhuong: well, some people worry about whether to invest time/money by looking at distribution... 14:18:38 The function itself is located in code/primordial-extensions.lisp 14:19:23 pkhuong: That's true, but this is more learning and being curious than a real "need" 14:19:58 pkhuong: It's now turned into a mental exercise for fun for me, so even if it's a distributable "hello world" that I can test on a fresh ubuntu image or something I'll be happy :) 14:20:02 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 14:20:44 tcr: defknown in compiler/fndb.lisp, deftransform in compiler/srctran.lisp, I guess. 14:21:21 except that hello-world is well known to be heaviest application in lisp ;-) 14:21:34 (in size/functionality xD) 14:21:50 well, in any language with a runtime, surely :) 14:21:52 lol, ok I'll give ya that but it should be fast to develop at least :) 14:21:55 it has a compiler built-in! 14:22:07 -!- legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-15-80.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Success] 14:22:19 only because many implementations fail to provide a tree shaker or another way to distribute applications sanely. 14:22:32 (a gui hello world with sbcl 64bit and commonqt works out to well over 100mb, uncompressed ;) 14:22:47 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-15-197.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 14:23:57 well, I suppose one could try to scavenge that old tree shaker for SBCL 14:24:26 tree shaker...totally unfamiliar with what that is, heh. 14:24:40 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:24:52 stassats`: was it you who hit the bug with M-. on funcallable instances? 14:24:53 what would it do with (funcall (find-symbol (concatenate 'concatenate "FOO" "BAR")))? 14:25:15 pkhuong: nope, i only confirmed it 14:25:35 s/'concatenate/'string/ 14:25:44 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:25:45 TDT: A graph of function calls can be viewed as a tree structure. A tree shaker attempts to remove uncalled functions 14:25:50 TDT: a thingy that tries to be predict future and remove code that is not called ;-) 14:25:55 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 14:26:09 Xof: I guess my argument is that erroring is surprising. If we didn't error, either by clearing the dispatch table or leaving it alone, that would reduce the number of ways users would have to sharp-plus their readtable-frobbing code, which I consider to be a good thing. I selected the clearing option because it's what most other implementations do, but I'd be about as satisfied with doing what Allegro does (not error, not clea 14:26:09 dispatch table). 14:26:09 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student166-162.hampshire.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:26:13 I'm less skeptical than most people on the subject :p 14:26:41 TDT: Someone made a simple game on Windows using SBCL and distributed it as an .exe. It ran succesfully on my Vista laptop a few days ago: http://www.cliki.net/Bermuda 14:26:45 dlowe, p_l: Ah ok, that's cool - probably something covered in algorithms that I wish I remembered, heh. I gotta take a graduate class in algorithms someime that may cover this stuff. 14:26:52 stassats`: I'd warn about a call to FIND-SYMBOL in reachable code. 14:27:07 with something like white-list, maybe 14:27:46 anyway, it's getting close to the freeze, and while I don't feel like fighting with CVS, I can fire an email off. Do you remember who reported it? 14:28:15 TDT: I've made Windows executables using CLISP and tested those on different Windows machines. 14:28:16 kreuter: so you're picturing this used noninteractively for this purpose -- under what circumstances? 14:28:33 (I'm less violently opposed to a do-nothing variant) 14:28:42 um 14:28:43 TDT: There are some initial gotchas but it is entirely possible. 14:29:03 pkhuong: mathrick 14:29:13 aerique: That's cool. I didn't know it wasn't that hard. I don't use windows much, but could use thta information as a basis - were there any good resoucres that described how to do it well? 14:29:15 a friend of mine brought this to my attention, when working on something that was heavily readtable-based. 14:29:27 I mean, doesn't well-behaved readtable code start (let ((readtable (copy-readtable nil))) (frob readtable))? 14:29:58 kreuter: I see you have even implemented it. 14:30:14 stassats`: yes? 14:30:20 mega1: ? 14:30:33 TDT: I'm not much of a Windows user myself :) There weren't any resources I could find at the time I was figuring it out, but it isn't hard if you've got Lisp experience. 14:30:43 kreuter: the sigchld handler related changes to wait* and fork 14:31:16 TDT: What I mean is: this shouldn't be the thing to shoot for if you're trying to learn CL but once you're past that point it's no problem. Some resource wouldn't hurt though. 14:31:28 TDT: Also, in case you want to ship something to windows user and you don't have problems with corman's limitations, it can be a nice alternative 14:31:34 mega1: I tried. people (maybe just Fare?) objected, and I've given up trying to argue with Lispers. 14:31:40 aerique: yeah, I'm roughly half way through PCL right now, so still a super novice but getting better. 14:32:10 sorry, kreuter 14:32:12 mathrick: pkhuong wanted to tell you something 14:32:37 mathrick: Slacker. I'm reporting your bug for you. 14:33:10 oh 14:33:25 pkhuong: thanks, I feel bad if that helps any :) 14:33:26 TDT: okey, then skip it for the time being :) Use the earlier trampoline script suggestions. 14:33:50 I was just busy fighting many other a code 14:34:29 kreuter: I think many more people use run-program than all the systems level programming functionality. 14:35:19 minion: tell TDT about cl-launch 14:35:20 TDT: look at cl-launch: cl-launch is a unix utility to make your Lisp software easily invokable from the shell command-line. http://www.cliki.net/cl-launch 14:35:43 so, I mentioned to mega1 in an email that it may be desirable to handle coprocess exit status by polling in an event loop, since (a) that would free up the SIGCHLD handler, and (b) IIUC, it's necessary to poll on Windows anyway (where wait() and run-program's :WAIT don't work). 14:35:58 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-17-48.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:36:23 where "an event loop" might, but need not, mean serve-event :) 14:36:34 rstandy [n=rastandy@93.144.17.48] has joined #lisp 14:37:13 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 14:37:13 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:37:43 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:38:16 Xof: I think my friend's code was a file that set up a few readtables, and had some toplevel calls to M-D-M-C. In his code, he set up all his intended dispatch macro functions after the M-D-M-C, so it didn't matter whether M-D-M-C was idempotent or destructive, but he did need to wrap M-D-M-C in IGNORE-ERRORS on SBCL. 14:38:36 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 14:39:35 moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 14:42:01 kreuter pasted "set-macro-character doesn't clear "dispatch"-ness" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79070 14:42:10 p_l: Thanks, yeah, I've looked at cl-launch in the past as well. I've used it at first for stumpwm, before just compiling and installing it that way 14:43:08 kreuter annotated #79070 "Stupid web browser" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79070#1 14:44:16 Xof: I think (but haven't tested) the function in that paste "ought" to be a portable way to clear the dispatch macro functions, independent of whether m-d-m-c errors; would you consider SET-MACRO-CHARACTER's not dissociating the dispatch macro functions to be a bug? 14:44:30 totally random: anyone knows how to write an x with - above 14:44:48 aka the sign for average 14:48:28 kreuter: I read the code and have two comments: 14:48:29 1) in C fork(), waitpid() still doesn't work because sigchld can reap the child too early 14:48:29 2) there is no way to make wait, waitpid async unwind safe: there will always be a small window in which the return value of the syscall is not yet received so process state changes can be lost 14:48:49 gonzojive [n=red@c-24-130-53-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:13 mega1: I agree. 14:49:30 (well, modulo blocking async signals around the syscalls, right?) 14:49:59 that you cannot do, because waitpid can block for a long time 14:50:04 kreuter: yes, I think I would 14:50:52 mega1: right. Unix processes aren't supposed to survive signals, right? PissedNumlock: (coerce '(#\a #\U0304) 'string) 14:50:59 What about creating the process objects in the sigchld handler, making waitpid wait on some signal safe semaphore attached to that process object and not call out at all? 14:51:34 -!- yvdriess_ [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 14:51:39 this way, there is no race in 2), but C land is still screwed. 14:51:49 well, #\U doesn't work everywhere 14:52:08 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-130-53-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:52:34 as much as I hate polling, this discussion tends towards it 14:52:55 milanj [n=milan@93.87.143.245] has joined #lisp 14:53:15 mega1: if I remember Fare's arguments correctly, isn't there a risk of deadlock by taking a lock in the sigchld handler? do we do anything to ensure we don't run the SIGCHLD handler while RUN-PROGRAM is holding the processes lock? 14:53:55 the active processes lock is protected by a without-interrupts 14:54:13 and there are signal safe semaphores 14:54:26 see sem_wait(3) 14:55:59 ah, you mean that the active processes lock must be taken to intern the process object 14:56:08 yeah 14:56:16 damn 14:57:03 deliana [n=deliana@147.210.246.189] has joined #lisp 15:01:35 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:02:39 crazy. I can't even find the mean symbol in unicode 15:03:24 yet they have a parenthesized small letter x as a single character...  15:03:49 stassats`: (code-char #x304) will work more places than #\U0304 will 15:04:33 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:04:58 Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:04:58 hbock [n=hbock@pool-96-253-33-184.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:06 dlowe: only x? 15:07:08 no, not only 15:08:43 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:09:03 hey all.. quick question. 15:09:27 is it possible to callback into SBCL from C from a non-SBCL-invoked thread? 15:09:37 I'm getting segmentation faults currently (using CFFI) 15:10:03 wchogg [n=wchogg@216.165.144.151] has joined #lisp 15:10:27 my understanding: no 15:11:50 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 15:11:55 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-149-117-84.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:02 :( well, there goes building bindings for this API 15:14:04 mega1: so far so good with the new patch! darwin/no-threads works so far. I'll try on freebsd later. thanks! 15:16:15 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:19:39 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:19:57 slyrus: that's what I had tested, as well. 15:20:59 pstickne [n=pstickne@24.21.76.57] has joined #lisp 15:22:50 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:24:41 waitpid for all known pids, how did I miss that? 15:24:44 bahhhhhh 15:24:59 at least it's not quite polling 15:25:09 badkins [n=user@adsl-068-209-204-112.sip.rdu.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:30 Someone here mentioend they do GUI programming in CL - what toolkit do you use? GTK bindings seem a little..well, not developed a whole lot on, QT appears to have more active development on. 15:27:46 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:28:05 TDT: ltk or clg 15:28:16 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 15:28:18 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-15-197.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:29:25 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 15:30:01 TDT: mcclim 15:30:18 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:06 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 15:31:28 Thanks, I'll check all three out. 15:31:31 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:31:35 can somebody test something for me on Allegro? 15:31:45 HG` [n=wells@91.111.13.16] has joined #lisp 15:31:48 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:31:48 TDT: Well, I'm using CommonQt, but that's just me. 15:31:57 kreuter: yes 15:32:01 kreuter: yes 15:32:39 lichtblau: Yeah, I have a feeling there are a lot of options, hehe. Mostly interested in something super super simple, something that I can mess with the rest of my stuff in and all. 15:33:07 TDT: I've had success with http://www.gtk-server.org/ 15:33:11 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-15-197.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:33:31 TDT: if you want "super simple", then I think ltk is the one 15:34:00 mega1: or fe[nl]ix: the forms in http://paste.lisp.org/display/79070; what does the GET-DISPATCH-MACRO-CHARACTER return? 15:35:05 # 15:35:14 kreuter: # 15:35:16 bah 15:35:19 damn. 15:35:21 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:35:22 fe[nl]ix: Yeah, I think it is too, briefly looking at both options. Thinking that would be good to get my feet wet, and go from there. 15:35:26 I lost my 4s advantage. 15:35:26 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:35:28 hm. 15:35:30 ejs [n=eugen@135-8-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:32 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-9-108.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:42 what if you do (setf *readtable* (copy-readtable nil)) first? 15:35:45 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 15:36:18 (i.e., I think the initial readtable might be an instance of "the" standard readtable.) 15:36:47 the same 15:36:51 jeez. 15:39:41 -!- lagenar [n=lucas@190.178.192.248] has quit ["Saliendo"] 15:39:43 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:40:23 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 15:40:23 moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 15:41:18 No that's not the correct way of doing it, kreuter 15:41:25 You have to use SET-SYNTAX-FROM-CHAR for this 15:41:33 tcr: does that work on allegro? 15:41:51 (it happens not to work on SBCL; same issue as set-macro-character.) 15:42:25 durka42_ [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 15:42:32 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-149-117-84.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 15:42:41 spiaggia: by chance, did you hear if they'd need a R&D software engineer to do lisp programming? ;-) 15:43:26 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:43:29 -!- durka42_ is now known as durka42 15:43:47 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-149-117-84.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:20 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:45:16 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@80.135.178.175] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:45:58 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-d930476f981eeeea] has joined #lisp 15:46:47 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F855.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:39 kreuter: Right, I think I've also got a patch for that. 15:47:54 tcr: me to, as of 5 seconds ago :) 15:48:46 Well, could I beg you to apply the get-dtable-pair, char-attr-table, and ref-cat-table patches? 15:49:01 where are they? 15:49:31 In the thread I pointed you to earlier here, and in my reply to your make-d-m-character posting 15:51:13 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:51:44 kreuter annotated #79070 "Does this work on Allegro?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79070#2 15:52:22 can some allegro user try that function, and then see what get-dispatch-macro-character returns on sharpsign asterisk? 15:52:31 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit ["Be back later"] 15:52:41 prompt.franz.com seems not to exist anymore. 15:55:36 kreuter: (make-fresh-dispatch-macro-character *sharpsign*) ? 15:55:45 yeah 15:56:14 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@24.21.76.57] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:56:35 same thing 15:58:34 what's same thing? 16:00:00 sharp-star? 16:00:22 hm. maybe Allegro inherited CMUCL's dopey reader. 16:01:22 tcr annotated #79070 "try this one" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79070#3 16:02:18 hm. 16:03:24 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-168-132-106.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 16:03:42 mega1: seems to work on fbsd +/- threads! 16:03:51 thanks 16:04:03 slyrus: but did it fail without the patch on freebsd too? 16:04:18 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-15-197.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:04:28 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:04:38 mega1: i originally noticed the (a?) problem on freebsd. 16:04:54 I'm quick to blame darwin signal handling, but freebsd was supposed to be more time tested. 16:04:56 it wasn't as broken as darwin, IIRC. 16:05:16 maybe there is something that I still don't understand about this. 16:06:10 kreuter: tcr's suggestion returns NIL 16:06:18 fe[nl]ix: thanks. 16:06:20 tcr: thanks! 16:07:22 I think yours should really work, too. It's not explicit in the standard, but that's pretty much the intent of set-syntax-from-char 16:08:24 well, somebody file a bug with Franz. :) 16:10:47 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:07 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:25 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:12:46 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:08 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:49 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:16:53 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 16:22:07 I feel stupid but what does DFO stand for? Data-Flow-?, Depth-First-? 16:23:17 tcr: probably depth-first order 16:23:29 -!- white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:23:56 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:20 -!- antgreen1 [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:27:24 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:28:36 willb [n=wibenton@144.92.79.161] has joined #lisp 16:31:24 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 16:32:56 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:48 -!- Ragnaroek [i=8f5df985@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-19999140cbed5a66] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:34:53 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:35:43 scottmaccal [n=newnickp@Sentry3.jay.k12.me.us] has joined #lisp 16:38:39 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 16:38:44 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:43:37 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-117-181.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:44:17 lichtblau: Is your clim IR1-viewer available? 16:45:08 it's available, but not very good. 16:46:25 Now I wish I were a clim-hacker. OTOH it'd just mean more opportunity to waste^Hspend my time 16:46:50 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:47:22 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 16:47:34 writing visualizations of something is a great way to distract yourself from learning what it means 16:48:11 see http://www.lichteblau.com/git/?p=irspect.git;a=summary 16:49:23 that's terribly cynical 16:49:30 the newer commits have a few more features, but expect a cross-compiling SBCL to be loaded into the current lisp and inspect the stuff that cross-compiler outputs. So you'd probably want the older, less fancy commits. 16:49:30 (and possibly also true, but still) 16:50:23 Obviously I need rewrite it in Qt. 16:50:38 *need to 16:50:49 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [] 16:50:52 how's commonqt going? 16:50:58 or tcl 16:51:02 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:51:25 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:52:02 antgreen1 [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:52:44 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 16:52:44 rsynnott: currently writing a proof-of-concept demo application to convince people here that our client can be done using Qt. Looks pretty awesome. 16:52:57 Greetings. 16:52:58 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:53:03 cool 16:53:14 do they require multiplatform and so on? 16:53:15 still occasional crashes on windows which I try to avoid thinking about :-) 16:53:36 rsynnott: yes, without Windows support this project will not be an option 16:53:37 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-187.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:45 I think that's traditional for windows applications 16:53:51 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:53:54 lichtblau: I couldn't parse the "expect ..." part, and I only want to look at IR1 16:54:13 see http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/ - From some of the stuff there, it's really quite amazing that windows apps work at a.. 16:54:47 lichtblau: Ideal was if I could just break, copy down the IR1 node to the repl, then use (show-cfg #) and it'd grovel from that arbitrary node 16:55:01 if it crashes without losing work and not too often, then it will be nicely looked upon :P 16:56:21 the general thinking amongst average windows users seems to be that unless it is made by a vast company and used by millions, crashes are fine 16:56:38 the vmware infrastructure client crashes about once an hour, for instance, still 16:57:12 plutonas [n=plutonas@nomad50243.netlogon.lu.se] has joined #lisp 16:58:17 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-62-34.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:58:57 the cisco vpn client is also crap 16:59:34 rsynnott: I can deal if it doesn't crash all the time and if it doesn't lose my data (i.e. kind of disaster recovery scheme) 16:59:46 if it's any consolation, in cisco's case, the Mac client is also terrible 17:01:08 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.143.135] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:01:23 lichtblau: are you still using the through socket and back into app approach? 17:01:26 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:41 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:01:51 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 17:01:58 rsynnott: no, that was helpful for debugging but doesn't do anything to help with the current, more seldom crashes, so I disabled it again 17:02:10 http://www.knowledgetools.de/px/qtvista.png 17:03:04 ah, very nice 17:03:29 (and probably more acceptable to the average user than a clim rendering of the same thing :) ) 17:03:53 great background, but I'd recommend a different finger 17:04:24 the background makes all the difference, just imagine irspect with that, it would be lovely 17:04:55 an IR1 browser would need a background more like "The Scream" 17:05:07 ah, another job for a 'hand model' 17:05:38 (apparently that is a real profession; the guy who did the hand modelling for the original iphone became vaguely famous out of it) 17:06:03 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 17:06:38 heh, there's actually a complete person attached to the finger in the full version of that 17:06:56 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:07:52 BTW, we're apparently looking for a new programmer, so if you need a Lisp job in Berlin, drop me a note. 17:07:53 lichtblau: are there variants without complete person? 17:09:38 p_l: the Thing (in Adam's Family). 17:10:12 *rsynnott* considers learning German, before Irish economy implodes entirely 17:13:28 -!- rlpowell_ is now known as rlpowell 17:13:28 -!- ironChicken [n=nrichard@mx.lurk.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:14:48 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:15:09 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B2AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:33 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-43-14.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:18:38 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 17:22:30 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:22:49 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:24:05 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@nomad50243.netlogon.lu.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:25:46 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:26:06 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 17:30:05 rsynnott: but just think of how much more free time you'll have for hacking once the economy implodes 17:30:37 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 17:31:13 oh, indeed 17:31:35 I'd be okay for a year or so, assuming they don't devalue the currency :) 17:31:45 oh, well, you're probably screwed then. 17:31:50 heh 17:32:05 ironChicken [n=richard@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 17:32:24 Ireland's in a particularly bad way, due to over-reliance on finance industry and lack of control of the euro 17:32:58 unfortunately, so are all the other English-speaking countries, so should probably re-learn french or something, just in case :) 17:33:37 *tmh* sits on his hands 17:33:39 rsynnott: chinese or arab. There's still no crisis in the UAE or in SA. 17:34:03 I refuse to consider UAE or Saudi on general principles 17:34:14 I like #lisp because it is an escape from politics, usually. 17:34:16 and I doubt I could learn chinese at this stage :) 17:34:24 *tmh* is sick of politics 17:34:58 I know Chinese already, but I haven't had any luck finding a job in China 17:36:02 tcr: jsnell's cl-dot package has some support for viewing IR1, which I have various local patches for. it's not as pretty as using CLIM for it, though. 17:36:32 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:38:20 lichtblau: If I try git clone http://www.lichteblau.com/git/irspect.git I get some error: 17:38:23 Cannot get remote repository information. 17:38:23 Perhaps git-update-server-info needs to be run there? 17:38:33 and when something is not as pretty as clim, you know you're really in trouble 17:39:05 under what circumstances does CLOS GF execution invoke the compiler ? 17:40:01 mega1: perhaps my freebsd problem is a different problem. I'm still getting "sbcl in free(): error: modified (chunk-) pointer" and hunchentoot crapping out on me. I still think it's related to run-program, however. 17:40:51 -!- willb [n=wibenton@144.92.79.161] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:43:22 white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:43:43 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:43:54 froydnj: Is it available? Just inspecting is pretty useless if you have no idea about the bigger picture in the head 17:44:49 -!- cracki [n=cracki@134.130.183.101] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 17:45:39 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:45:48 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:46:04 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:46:28 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:41 *rsynnott* really must change to this fancy new hunchentoot 17:49:02 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:50:52 ejs1 [n=eugen@135-8-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:54 josemanuel [n=josemanu@180.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:53:23 kreuter: conjecture: the first time a 'path' through a method combination is taken, the method-lambda bodies can/might be compiled (and cached) at that point 17:53:57 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-94-2.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:53:59 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:54:13 tcr: let me look 17:54:31 drewc: right. I'm trying to construct a reproducible case, for a bug report. 17:54:52 -!- ejs [n=eugen@135-8-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:54:54 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 17:55:55 tcg: http://method-combination.net/lisp/files/sb-c-example.lisp 17:56:02 er, tcr ^ 17:56:12 you'll need cl-dot to make it go 17:56:52 -!- MrSpec is now known as mrspec[afk] 17:56:59 I don't *think* I needed to modify cl-dot itself... 17:57:07 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:58:23 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@94-224-246-148.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 17:59:04 michaelw: Is there a source repository for cl-dot? 18:01:58 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-187.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:02:42 -!- xan_ is now known as xan 18:02:44 froydnj: There's an unmatched paren in that file 18:03:42 tcr: not overly surprising; I touched it about 3 years ago and never COMPILE-FILE/LOAD'd it =/ 18:03:47 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:03:55 Mm. I don't think the mismatched paren in constants.lisp was an accident. 18:04:14 tcr: also, http://paste.lisp.org/display/79075 explains how I hooked it up to the compiler. 18:04:26 pkhuong: none dare call it conspiracy! 18:05:42 dlowe: actually, yes. It's not a lisp file; the extension is just for convenience. The file is *not* meant to be LOADed. Exactly the first form in the file will be READ in by the program. 18:06:00 slyrus: where does that message come from? 18:06:02 IIRC, it's also been there since the initial commit from CMUCL. 18:06:19 pkhuong: yeah, I understood that. Seems like it could be made more explicit with a simple #.(error "Don't load this!") 18:07:17 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 18:14:01 tcr: thanks, fixed 18:16:14 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:22 -!- white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:20:34 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:20:40 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@94-224-246-148.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 18:22:30 Good evening. 18:22:53 beach: how did the presentation go? 18:23:03 mvilleneuve: quite well thank you! 18:23:12 what was it about? 18:23:22 method combinations 18:23:36 but I only had time to do the standard one. 18:24:10 It doesn't matter though, because I'll just do the others the next time. :) 18:24:18 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:25:40 is it a series of presentations to teach non-lispers about the language? 18:25:40 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:25:55 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:25:56 minion: memo for puf_huyphu: If you need to catch me in real time, you have to look out for `beach', `spiaggia', and sometimes `plage' (depending on whether I am at home, in my office, or somewhere else with my laptop). 18:25:56 Remembered. I'll tell puf_huyphu when he/she/it next speaks. 18:26:52 mvilleneuve: Yeah, specifically, the members of the LaBRI who learned Lisp 30 years ago from someone who learned it from McCarty (or some French guru at the time). 18:27:05 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.69.135] has joined #lisp 18:27:05 s//h/ 18:28:18 mvilleneuve: I am really filling out empty slots in the LaBRI seminar schedule, and since I can do these talks with very short notice, it suits me fine. 18:29:03 mvilleneuve: There were not that many people there, but many of them were exactly the people I had hoped to see there. 18:29:56 mvilleneuve: Some of my colleagues still don't quite understand why there are things like "Bordeaux Threads". 18:33:28 Am I blabbing to much again? I guess so. :( 18:33:49 oudeis [n=oudeis@77.124.71.204] has joined #lisp 18:33:51 beach: no, I was just preparing a question for your last statement :) 18:34:12 whew! 18:35:36 beach: namely, why they don't understand, and second, to general audience, is anyone serious about CDR (Common Lisp Document Repository)? 18:37:04 p_l: because nobody told them about the Lisp activities here (and that is because such activities are not traditionally seen as important until, of course, they make my colleagues look good indirectly). 18:37:40 p_l: I take the CDR very seriously, simply because it has low traffic and a sound process (in my opinion). 18:38:17 beach: I found it not so long ago, it would be great to get some of the more common (pun intended) stuff "standardised" 18:39:14 p_l: Yeah, and the CDR is good because there is a reviewing process, so people are encouraged to submit quality stuff, though of course technically you can submit anything you like. 18:39:21 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:40:32 the real question is: do any of the Lisp Implementers take CDR seriously? 18:40:38 *p_l* wonders when it will be normal to have cdr- systems as part of distributed runtimes 18:40:56 foom: I am pretty sure SBCL implements the sequence extensions. 18:41:17 are they in cdr? 18:41:34 -!- mega1 [n=mega@53d8275f.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:42:17 jsnell: Don't do that to me! Now I doubt my (feeble) memory. I am pretty sure that's where I read the specifications, yes. (But now I am not so sure anymore). 18:43:09 cdr-3 is about sequence extensions 18:43:09 ok, I'll instead formulate that as a statement: the extensible sequence proposal was not submitted to cdr :-) 18:43:35 cdr-3 is about removing restrictions on CL functions which disallow sequence extensions 18:43:40 p_l: Thanks for restoring some confidence in my memory. 18:43:43 I'm not enthusiastic about the CDR because there doesn't appear to be a way to revise a document after it has been frozen, at least as I understand the process. 18:43:56 ninja'd by foom 18:43:59 tmh: same with the RFC process 18:44:00 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.132.189.132] has quit ["..."] 18:44:14 foom: that's not much of a recommendation 18:44:53 I think the CDR people did the right thing in that this is the minimal protocol most of us can agree upon. 18:45:12 it's also mostly a useless thing 18:45:23 the best I've got to say about cdr is that it's mostly harmless 18:45:28 It's like the UN. As useless as its participants want to make it. 18:46:01 So, if we're adhering to the CDR and a document needs revision, do we submit a new document and state, "This document supersedes document number Blah"? 18:46:02 dlowe: So who are the members with absolute veto power? 18:46:06 jsnell: You know, I think this kind of attitude is exactly what is hurting Lisp at the moment, namely that any initiative has to be shot to pieces. 18:46:08 tmh: right. 18:46:14 the real problem is that nobody *wants* to have standardized extensions. 18:46:20 jao [n=jao@198.Red-83-39-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:42 that was abundantly clear at the recent conference 18:46:59 beach: I think it's a natural outcome of lisp's hyper-critical academic roots 18:47:15 the problem with further standardization isn't assigning unique identifiers to those new standards 18:47:33 jsnell: feel free to come up with the ideal solution. 18:47:37 it's coming up with the proposals and getting them implemented in a sufficiently large number of implementations 18:47:54 jsnell: and I assume you know how to do that. 18:48:00 I wanted to know why simple things like sockets and threads had not been harmonized between implementations yet, and the answer was basically "why should we" 18:48:08 dec142 [n=Declan@86-40-120-33-dynamic.b-ras3.mvw.galway.eircom.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:21 perhaps if some implementations were killed off.. 18:48:29 -!- dec142 [n=Declan@86-40-120-33-dynamic.b-ras3.mvw.galway.eircom.net] has left #lisp 18:49:06 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:49:36 beach: obviously I don't, but I don't need to either to know that cdr isn't doing any good either 18:49:40 hefner: any candidates? Outside of #lisp, I'm not listening much to grapevine... 18:49:41 I think the audience was with me though. :) 18:49:41 dlowe: As one of the initial implementors of McCLIM, I am getting really tired of this attitude which consists of shitting all over any kind of initiative, for reasons I can only guess, while at the same time not providing any alternative. And jsnell, I wasn't referring to you right there. 18:49:48 not that it's doing any harm. like I said, mostly harmless 18:50:04 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@77.124.71.204] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:50:40 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 18:50:41 Perhaps, but I don't think it is good for the genral morale of people that we should be encouraging instead of crushing. 18:50:55 p_l: well, that's the tricky bit. implementations exist because someone wants them to exist. I have no army with which to enact my proposed genocidal purging of lisp implementations, nor would it accomplish much. :) 18:50:56 beach: Don't get me wrong, I think we need a lot more initiatives. 18:51:22 dlowe: I wasn't getting you wrong. At least I don't think so. 18:51:30 beach: I think the problem is the number of "initiatives" that quickly stall out. I'm tired of "initiatives" that don't go anywhere. I'd just as soon people do something and let it grow or die organically. 18:52:13 I'd say that what is needed is LESS TALK and MORE CODE (and since I seem to have produced about as much talk in that past 10 minutes as code this year, I'll bow out of this discussion now) 18:52:18 minion: chant 18:52:19 MORE CODE 18:52:25 tmh: Yeah, and there is a quick solution to that problem. Kill any initiative before it even happens. Then you won't get any half-baked ones. You won't get any others either, but... 18:52:50 jsnell: Excellent initiative! 18:53:15 Well, if commonqt gathers enough critical mass we might get around a certain inconvenience (and disencouragement of newbies) that is GUI... 18:53:18 p_l: my preference is that one or two good implementations should make the rest irrelevant 18:53:32 and I think I'll follow jsnell's example, because I think I have already made my point. 18:53:32 Let's take cffi for an example: is it good enough to replace sb-alien? if yes, why not integrate it into sbcl itself and get rid of the redundant layer. 18:53:55 If not, that sucks, because it means if you want portable code you get a worse API 18:54:12 foom: that doesn't make a lot of sense. isn't it implemented on top of sb-alien? 18:54:14 foom: bootstrapping problems. 18:54:22 hefner: no, it's mostly implemented besides sb-alien. 18:54:23 hefner: yes, it is implemented on top of sb-alien 18:54:34 hefner: but only uses the low-level bits 18:54:49 right. in fact, I didn't realize it had any replacement for the higher level bits of sb-alien. 18:55:43 willb [n=wibenton@144.92.79.183] has joined #lisp 18:55:47 Being the developer-friendly version that it is, you'd think sbcl would be the first to adopt the integration of de facto standards 18:55:56 -!- pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:56:11 sbcl leads the way, with exciting features like extensible sequences. 18:56:22 anyways, rinse and repeat with every portability library: either it's good and everyone should adopt that API into their implementation, or it sucks and nobody should use it 18:56:33 *dlowe* wants to see low-level series support. 18:58:21 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:58:59 It seems like one could get an integration coalition together, at least one person per open implementation, and have them submit implementation patches to portable interfaces, one project at a time 18:59:00 the problem comes in when things change 18:59:43 if you incorporated threads into the 'standard', then you might be in trouble if you wanted to use a significantly different threading/process model, say 18:59:54 start with the easy stuff first :p 18:59:57 no more so than you are today. 19:00:16 so your implementation doesn't implement that part of the interface. done. 19:00:39 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-43-14.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:00:42 that sucks if programs want to use it, sure, but that sucks worse today. 19:01:27 *rsynnott* doesn't really see the problem with compatibility layers 19:01:53 it's a waste of effort 19:01:59 they provide a way for people to write portable software, while allowing the implementors freedom to mess around with the underlying stuff 19:02:13 no, not really 19:02:37 if the implementors mess around with underlying stuff to an extent that the portability layer can't work anymore, that's obviously not good 19:02:57 -!- deliana [n=deliana@147.210.246.189] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:03:12 if the implementors don't mess around with underlying stuff that much, the portability layer doesn't need to exist: it should be an API exposed by the implementation 19:04:36 and then some implementation starts to add lots of new stuff (say, C++/objc/java FFI) and you're back where you started anyway 19:05:10 that would be *GREAT* 19:05:21 because we aren't back where we started 19:05:25 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:05:33 we now have a basic level of compatibility 19:05:43 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 19:05:45 with some new interesting differences between implementation 19:06:12 sockets, threads, C FFI are old problems: they aren't interesting, they're basically solved. 19:06:31 it sucks that CL is so out of date that even the old problems are a pain 19:06:40 I'd question that, especially on threads 19:06:55 there are different, legitimate ways of doing multi-threading/processing 19:08:12 yeah, threads aren't really solved. sockets and C FFI pretty much is, though 19:08:40 BSD sockets won. Let's slap on an interface and call it done. 19:08:52 oh, hey, look, a discussion I could have spent time arguing in 19:09:21 Too late. 19:09:22 Krystof: But would you have convinced anyone that you were correct? 19:09:24 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 19:09:49 tmh: Lispers don't argue to convince. 19:10:13 kreuter: Ah, yes, it's the journey, not the destination. 19:10:14 kreuter: I think that RIGHT ON THE SPOT 19:10:29 also, it's not as if many other languages with many serious implementations have managed it 19:10:39 tmh: No, it's more that they want to come your looking good. 19:10:41 I would have argued from authority 19:10:43 (C++0x may be the exception, if it ever turns up) 19:10:50 having been here since before MORE CODE was a meme 19:10:52 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.69.135] has quit [] 19:10:53 Krystof: too easy 19:11:21 (I do intend to make the sequences a CDR, but there are one or two bugs in the paper's version that need to be fixed first) 19:11:59 tmh: and one way of looking good is to convince everyone that you are right in that a particular initiative is crap. That is so much less work than actually taking some initiative yourself. 19:12:36 beach: I think that follows my "academia is what's wrong with lisp" thesis pretty well 19:12:51 excellent, another argument 19:12:52 of course, it'd be easy to test 19:13:02 just get one ccl and one sbcl dev to agree :) 19:13:05 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.69.135] has joined #lisp 19:13:24 dlowe: yeah, I pretty much agree, but I don't think it has to do with academia per se, but with the perceived attitude of it. 19:13:36 rsynnott: a person could theoretically be both 19:13:43 I'm sure you can easily find an sbcl and cll developer who both agree that something should not be implemented 19:13:46 -!- jao [n=jao@198.Red-83-39-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:13:52 beach: I'm not much into poo-pooing other people's work. Just don't expect me to get excited about it and jump on board until there is something substantial behind it. I hope I didn't come across as calling the CDR crap, I'm just not enthusiastic about it. 19:13:59 what's wrong with Lisp? That it cooperates with the rest of the world rather poorly. 19:14:04 probably best they were for something like that; otherwise they'd spend the whole time arguing about what the interface should look like 19:14:27 (which is part of the problem with standardisation; it's really mostly fighting) 19:14:35 tic_: perhaps, but what's so great about the rest of the world? 19:14:49 hefner, apps, mostly. 19:15:04 tmh: Sure. I am referring to people who actively shit all over any initiative that is not theirs. My thoughts go to Kenny, of course, for which this seems to be a major tactic. 19:15:07 hefner, say, a browser, a graphics editor. things like that. 19:15:22 this argument only even arises because cl has multiple independent implementations, something that most languages don't 19:15:27 beach, I was referring to Kenny this morning, regarding the being on top of you and the beach. 19:15:32 tic_: I think this is an instance of MORE CODE being necessary 19:15:54 tic_: I know, I was too. 19:15:59 > (make-instance (intern "MORE CODE")) 19:16:10 beach, very well! then we did understand each other after-all. 19:16:10 you don't get a graphics editor in Lisp by cooperating with a graphics editor written in something else 19:16:16 hefner, still. I don't see that happening. 19:16:18 if you want to write an app, go write an app. You don't need to wait for the kingdom of lisp heaven to return to earth before you can start working. 19:16:20 you get a graphics editor in lisp by writing a graphics editor in lisp 19:16:25 hefner, of course not. 19:16:27 beach: Okay, I'm not privy to that situation. 19:16:36 And don't need to be. :-) 19:16:37 and in practice anybody writing apps for normal people will use and focus on one impl anyway 19:16:42 you don't get one by whining about how the rest of the world has graphics editors and you don't 19:17:04 *rsynnott* personally does not attach any great import to having a graphics editor :) 19:17:06 hefner, I guess it's the feel that Lisp is best suited if it is your universe rather than being constrained to a piece of your system. 19:17:22 Krystof, I'm sorry if what I said was perceived as whining. That wasn't at all what I meant. 19:17:24 also, I have just rebased my repeatable build tree to CVS HEAD and now clisp builds error in cold-init again 19:17:27 so I am doubly cross 19:19:22 tic_: you just need to get your act together and show that you have produced some useful code. Of course, then you run the risk of getting depressed by people who are going to tell you that it was the wrong thing to do, that it is too hard to learn, that nobody will want it, because it doesn't looke like Swing, etc. But that's OK, you just have to be prepared for it. 19:19:24 bombshelter13p [n=bombshel@24.114.234.33] has joined #lisp 19:19:36 -!- bombshelter13p [n=bombshel@24.114.234.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:19:39 as for the worst thing about Lisp being academia: all I can say is "thanks" 19:19:49 and "I'll get my coat" 19:19:57 (and various unprintable things) 19:20:06 Krystof: I can't agree more. 19:20:25 Krystof: You unintentionally inspired this realization by your condescending academic attitude. 19:20:31 If our standard is the software industry, I'll be happy to stay out. 19:20:42 beach, you know, these things have never really stopped me from barking on stupid projects in the past. Case in point, Limp. 19:20:44 jao [n=jao@247.Red-81-32-179.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:45 dlowe: me? All by myself? Awesome 19:20:47 "nobody will want it, because it doesn't looke like Swing" - is this something to do with clim? :) 19:20:52 Krystof: well, you and ILC 2009 19:20:54 s/barking/embarking/ 19:21:07 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:14 beach, but yes, I see how that can happen. Your strategy is to ignore it, I suppose? 19:21:43 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.254.237] has joined #lisp 19:21:45 rsynnott: I made that up, but yes, I keep accumulating arguments against CLIM, and they become more and more rediculous over time. 19:21:56 *hefner* chokes 19:22:18 dlowe: I'm impressed. I have the same impact factor as JonL 19:22:23 hefner: you are not credible anymore in this respect, because you have clearly stated your attitude. 19:22:51 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-148-234.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:59 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@180.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 19:23:00 hefner: and this is despite my saying that the listener provided me with a *fantastic* environment last weekend for experimenting with sound analysis and synthesis. 19:23:12 ah, it's OK; my rebased repeatable-build errors in cold-init with sbcl as host, too 19:23:25 well, at least I know how to spell ridiculous. 19:23:40 hefner: sorry! 19:23:51 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:24:24 hefner: I blame the French. 19:24:27 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.243.44] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:24:39 Well all do. 19:24:45 who spell ridiculous "ridicule"? 19:25:05 tcr: It's a safe strategy to some. 19:25:57 Krystof: ah, well. I didn't really expect you to agree 19:26:15 I haven't managed to understand what it is I'm meant to have done 19:26:31 (or "academia" come to that, but let's focus on me first :-) 19:26:57 tic_: I don't ignore it, but I don't necessarily argue against it either. Or else I would be caught up in endless discussions on c.l.l. 19:27:12 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:27:20 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-6768.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:27:35 Krystof: You lack nothing. You're perfectly suited to your environment. Hack away. 19:28:12 dlowe: ok, but you work at a company which uses the fruits of my hacking 19:28:19 dwave [n=ask@212251218147.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:28:36 Krystof: No one is arguing that the world is indebted to the fruits of the academic institution 19:28:42 beach, mm endless discussions... 19:28:52 and I'm actually getting fairly tired of ITA people essentially telling me that it's all my fault 19:29:03 mm, this discussion is going down the drain quite rapidly. 19:29:43 I'm not arguing that everyone should be saying "thank goodness for academia" 19:30:26 but "academia is what's wrong with lisp" looks a bit too far in the other direction to me, and looks a little bit like an attack 19:30:50 and I'm sorry if I've been condescending, and are you still angry about that exchange about loop and type declarations? 19:30:57 tic_: Mostly boring to me. I am getting paid every month, so I don't care that much. I guess people like Kenny depend more on coming across as credible, so they have to put more work into such things. I get sufficient appreciation as it is, and I just find it sad to see people defining themselves as "shitters upon the works of others". 19:31:09 sounds slightly fundamentalist, all right 19:31:36 and all is not rosy in the world of business-driven languages, either... 19:31:39 Krystof: I'm not angry at all. It's been remarkably freeing to me, because I'm not likely to get respect from academics. I just care about different stuff. 19:32:10 *rsynnott* suspects that Kenny's persona is all a rather subtle troll 19:32:46 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.7.60.240] has joined #lisp 19:32:50 Krystof: you were right anyway. The dysfunction went all the way to the root of the loop design. *shrug* 19:33:03 froydnj: Are you still here? 19:33:15 beach, indeed. you don't really get out much from that. 19:33:23 I was right, yes, but I obviously didn't communicate in a useful way 19:33:28 rsynnott: I guess you didn't meet him in Amsterdam, when he declared very loudly after my inviting him to ELS in Bordeaux that "No, that's just crap, the ECLM is the ONLY RIGHT THING". 19:33:50 oh, really? 19:33:52 oh, dear 19:33:53 oudeis [n=oudeis@77.124.71.204] has joined #lisp 19:33:58 *rsynnott* wonders how someone could live like that 19:34:00 beach, o_O 19:35:01 I thought I was answering the question you asked but I didn't answer the question that you cared about (and that was probably my fault) 19:35:04 now i see, that "there is no lisp community" 19:35:44 well, no community where everyone agrees with everything 19:35:49 that could be seen as a good thing 19:36:32 tic_: You know, people in academia get very used to not getting recognized for what they do, because most people assume they don't do shit anyway, and I can live with that. What I find a bit regrettable is that when there are *some* people in academia who try to make an effort to make a difference, then people shit all over them. 19:37:11 3 files. I blame mega1 19:37:13 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-149-117-84.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:37:34 michaelw: Are you here? 19:38:39 beach: If it's any consolation, that attitude occurs at every level. I was told in a "Six Sigma" meeting by a production guy that engineering was "non-value added". I got up and walked out. I mean, really, maybe he should go back to trying to build aircraft from the 1930's, because that's what you'd get without engineering. 19:39:11 tmh: no no, that would aircraft from late 19th century 19:39:43 I'm not assigning blame. I'm noting a congruence between what makes for success in academia and the usual complaints about lisp 19:40:33 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-069-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:48 tmh: I am sure you are right about that, and it is easy to forget what people are willing to do in order to come across as better that some others. It doesn't make it acceptable thought, and it is sad to me that the very smart people here are sometimes willing to play that game. 19:41:26 p_l: you'd almost certainly have never gotten the aircraft 19:41:38 the internal combustion engine didn't become suitable for flying planes overnight 19:41:47 rsynnott: that's what I'm talking about :> 19:41:58 it takes it's time not ? 19:41:59 tmh: All I can say is that I respect such people less and less, and Kenny is close to the top of my list. 19:42:09 (though actually you'd never have gotten useful steam engines anyway) 19:42:11 jsnell: since you're here... do you understand the frame biasing changes mega / nyef made well enough to give me a name for the quantity in the (make-ea ...) forms in static-fun-template-vop in src/compiler/x86/static-fun.lisp 19:42:27 something like ebp-ea or base-pointer-ea-form or something? 19:42:41 jao` [n=jao@183.Red-88-15-114.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:53 *rsynnott* googles six sigma, and sort of wishes he hadn't 19:42:58 let me have a look at whether I can understand it 19:44:19 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:44:30 rsynnott: Don't stop there, google ISO 900x, If we just put in place enough methods, we can totally avoid all thought. 19:44:46 tcr: aroundp 19:44:48 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:44:48 rsynnott: who wouldn't want to call themselves a "black belt" ? 19:44:56 kreuter: Yup 19:45:24 -!- scottmaccal [n=newnickp@Sentry3.jay.k12.me.us] has quit ["Gone but not forgotten."] 19:45:31 oh, I know about ISO 9000 19:45:42 :) 19:45:46 difficult to escape 19:45:53 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:08 (Six Sigma looks like unmitigated nonsense to me, but then I am not a manager) 19:46:08 tcr: is SB-IMPL::CHECK-FOR-RECURSIVE-READ one of your introductions? 19:46:40 "A special infrastructure of "Champions," "Master Black Belts," "Black Belts," etc. to lead and implement the Six Sigma approach" - oh, my, that's revolting :) 19:46:55 beach, so, how often does it happen that people visible in Academia(tm) are shit upon? Other than by Kenny, that is. 19:47:27 Ragnaroek [i=54a63e32@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7892989e1aaaa776] has joined #lisp 19:47:27 tcr: am I confused, or is it a bug that the simple-reader-error isn't given a :STREAM initarg? (S-R-Es are STREAM-ERRORs, and I get a nested error when trying to print the S-R-E from CHECK-FOR-RECURSIVE-READ.) 19:47:28 rsynnott: "if you know what you were doing, you'd be in management" <-- an oh-so-true quote from ASR 19:48:02 Krystof: maybe new-ebp-ea? 19:48:09 rsynnott: what, no brownshirts? 19:48:10 tops, thanks 19:48:28 kreuter: I'm not sure if that's exactly the version as I wrote it, but it should really use the _function_ SIMPLE-READER-ERROR anyway) 19:48:34 rsynnott: ISO 9000 is an attempt to relieve management, especially middle-management of responsibility and judgment. And here is where I insert one of my favorite quote "There is no substitute for intelligence, experience, common sense, and good taste." ~ Bjarne Stroustrup 19:48:50 tcr: okay, I'll thread through the call changes. 19:49:17 the 'black belts' thing is roughly on the same level as companies who call their minimum-wage employees 'associates' in terms of revolting 19:49:32 (let's make this annoying thing sound fun/important!) 19:49:54 kreuter: Other implementations do not seem to need such a check, btw. 19:50:29 okay. I was just confusing the heck out of myself with how I was getting a nested error here. 19:50:53 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 19:51:01 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@77.124.71.204] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:51:10 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@135-8-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:51:17 Have you committed any of your reader changes so far? 19:51:26 nope 19:51:37 iListenU [n=name@78-57-141-87.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 19:51:39 If you do, tell me. I'll eyeball through gitweb. 19:51:46 okay 19:52:03 -!- iListenU [n=name@78-57-141-87.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:52:17 iListenU [n=name@78-57-141-87.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 19:52:29 tic_: That's a very general question, and I am not that interested in the answer. I have learned to do what I like, to show it to others, and to live with the consequences. That's what research is about. 19:52:40 -!- dwave [n=ask@212251218147.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 19:52:43 beach, *nod* 19:53:13 Please help, i get problem in: http://parduoduv.puslapiai.lt at header error. (top). What can it be? 19:53:19 -!- iListenU [n=name@78-57-141-87.static.zebra.lt] has left #lisp 19:53:36 That was a very short visit! 19:53:54 zepard [n=zepard@unaffiliated/zepard] has joined #lisp 19:54:16 weird spam. 19:55:04 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 19:56:23 tcr: pong 19:57:08 -!- jao [n=jao@247.Red-81-32-179.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:57:31 how I have missed discussions about who and/or what is to blame for lisp's failures. 19:57:40 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-135.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 19:58:01 froydnj: I'd like if all things belonging to a component were framed up (for example, like you commonly draw sets) 19:58:04 froydnj: yeah, and what's with the not being an academic any more? 19:58:06 beach: I wonder is that the problem? When companies do things, we only really see the successes; when academia does them we see the successes and failures, and that's bound to effect perception 19:58:24 froydnj: Doesn't seem trivial if possible with graphviz at all, does it? 19:58:34 froydnj: actually, I had a question for you: does ironclad use the implementation's CL:RANDOM? 19:58:43 rsynnott: I take small exception to "seeing academia's failures"... 19:59:03 Krystof: yes. that's a bug. patches for RNG bits gratefully accepted... 19:59:19 tcr: what do you mean? 19:59:28 froydnj: I was idly wondering, in an academic kind of way, whether a random-state protocol would be fun to implement 19:59:30 rsynnott: In academia there is some semi-formal protocol that you follow when you don't agree with someone, or rather with some specific opinions that happen to be held by somone, namely, you write an article that then gets peer-reviewd and if it gets published, the idea is that you might have som credible ideas. 19:59:46 rsynnott: (and I wrote that before your last remark) 19:59:55 so that ironclad can do (let ((*random-state* (make-entropic-random-state ...))) ...) around any critical bits 20:00:05 user-subclassable random-state 20:00:25 Krystof: I have, in an academic way, dreamed up random-state protocol bits from time to time (actually, mostly entropy-gathering protocols, since obvious extensions to RANDOM seem easy and reasonable enough) 20:00:32 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 20:00:40 excellent! Let's be academic 20:00:52 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:00:54 tcr: it's possible with subgraphs 20:01:07 I don't know if you can coerce cl-dot into creating those, though 20:01:46 Krystof: if you can spare a cycle, could you describe a scenario in which calling a GF (possibly a CTOR) would reproducibly invoke COMPILE? 20:01:54 froydnj: Well nevermind, what I actually need more is a way to visualize deleted stuff. I started by modifying the method for CBLOCK to look whether component-kind is deleted for its block-component, and if so, change the font color. Doesn't seems to work, though. 20:02:12 optikalmouse [i=4c421287@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-675b76af3769a58b] has joined #lisp 20:02:46 jsnell: Thanks, I don't feel like hacking on cl-dot. I'll mention it to michaelw, though. 20:03:18 kreuter: I think so in both cases. For GFs, there are closure-based somethings based on patterns of arguments and, if they're called enough times, then PCL generates specialized lisp code to deal with them 20:03:23 -!- jao` [n=jao@183.Red-88-15-114.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:03:36 this is a bit of PCL I don't know very much about, incidentally 20:03:45 -!- zepard [n=zepard@unaffiliated/zepard] has left #lisp 20:04:04 rsynnott: The problem I have had for a couple of decades is that the level of the software industy (and I have seen and worked in it in four different countries), is pretty feeble, but there are these untrained unqualified loud mouths that use their superior mastery of colloquialisms and their native tongue to convince unsuspecting victims of their superiority, even though they are "all air" and no substance. 20:04:14 I think that's fngen.lisp, dlisp2.lisp and/or dlisp3.lisp 20:04:29 I have a vague bug report with no reproduction code that is purportedly about running COMPILE in a dynamic environment that the user has messed up somehow. 20:04:47 ... where the COMPILE is a side effect of running a GF or maybe CTOR. 20:04:49 ctor is easier: install-optimized-constructor calls COMPILE directly 20:04:59 rsynnott: and the successes of academia are not terribly visible either (viz. papers on smalltalk and self being rediscovered as suddenly applicable to javascript, ruby, python, etc...) 20:05:27 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.69.135] has quit [] 20:05:35 I'm actually sympathetic to the argument that most academic computer science is either (a) not applicable to computer engineering or (b) worthless 20:05:47 Krystof: thanks. 20:05:59 Krystof: That's part of the game. 20:06:01 Krystof: see why I got out? :) 20:06:07 oh yes 20:06:09 ejs [n=eugen@135-8-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:28 froydnj: oh, please. the papers on smalltalk and self are rediscovered every two years 20:06:50 there was a golden age of actual usefulness from lots of academia, and plenty of people are delusionally thinking that that still applies 20:06:50 Krystof: How on earth is one supposed to do research about what might happen in the future and be right 100% of the time? 20:06:52 before people find that the hard part is actually applying that in practice 20:06:53 there is no computer engineering 20:07:03 there is just programming 20:07:17 beach: the future? sure. Most of our colleagues can't accurately retrodict the past 20:07:37 Krystof: indeed. 20:07:40 jsnell: touche. or the papers on fast generic function dispatch 20:08:00 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 20:08:13 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 20:08:24 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 20:08:42 guaqua: you might not know what you are talking about, or else you are beeing very cryptic. 20:09:47 Krystof: one of my current topics vis-a-vis my colleagues is to ask them why we teach our students about processes in OSes. 20:10:00 Krystof: Or LALR(k). 20:10:13 beach: he's right actually. engineering implies measurement and re-use of solid principles 20:10:28 yeah, and just because _you_ don't do that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist 20:10:47 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 20:10:54 beach: see, I don't know what either of those actually means: I'm not a Computer Scientist 20:11:01 optikalmouse: you are very right about that. Now tell me how software engineering is related to engineering other than sharing a word. 20:11:07 beach: the industry still does the re-invention thing and can't do proper measurement since the majority of projects are proprietary and hidden 20:11:11 beach: are your presentations open to the public? 20:11:28 beach: if they're un-related, we shouldn't even use the word engineering. 20:11:37 I do know that in academic Physics you will only be successful if you know a _lot_ about what has gone before. That precondition doesn't really seem to be there in my experience of CS 20:11:39 beach: we wildly underestimate cost and time 20:11:40 software pseudo-engineers works. 20:11:42 optikalmouse: it sounds "bussinesslike enough" 20:11:56 I hate estimation 20:12:02 like "how the hell should I know?" 20:12:02 the people at Intel might disagree with your assessment of computer engineering 20:12:21 Krystof: I would be happy to discuss all of this with you some time, because you are smarter than most of my CS colleagues, and I think you could do something useful with the information. 20:12:45 S11001001: 6 to 8 weeks! 20:13:01 Krystof: that's hardware, not software. 20:13:23 Krystof: depends what you mean - software or hardware? I suppose that the costs of making hw and the fact that it's much harder to patch make people think and actually apply engineering... 20:13:34 S11001001: Strangely enough, we've managed to develop techniques to estimate and control delivery time and costs... unfortunately, "programming is an art". 20:13:38 computer engineering implies both hardware and software, it would be better to call the Intel guys hardware engineers 20:14:00 mvilleneuve: Anyone is free to attend, but since I don't prepare, nor leave a trace, if nobody there takes notes, it's lost, like those sculptures of art made in ice. 20:14:27 beach: so we need a freezer? 20:14:33 benny` [n=benny@i577A1CD9.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:14:39 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 20:14:50 a video camera might be cheaper 20:14:53 pkhuong: every time I read about these techniques, I keep searching for stats, not simply anecdotes, "in my company we did X and it improved Y" 20:14:59 p_l: I would refuse to give my talks in a freezer. Way too cold. 20:15:08 http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/f5f837f781a007bb?hl=en&dmode=source # ah, there it is 20:15:14 dwave [n=ask@212251218147.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:15:34 sorry, that message is more applicable to two arguments ago than it is now, but it's still worth reading 20:15:53 use a filtering cassette 20:16:06 beach: I'd be happy to attend next time 20:16:11 Krystof: we've regressed! SBCL barely runs on alpha! 20:16:18 optikalmouse: I am convinced that we can't measure most things in software, so we have to rely on decision-makers' experience to do the right thing. Problem is, most decision-makers in the software industy have no experience. 20:16:22 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 20:16:37 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-220.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:16:47 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:16:51 mvilleneuve: That would be May 7th. 20:17:28 mvilleneuve: Yes, anyone can come. 20:17:33 froydnj: in 2009, alpha barely runs ;) 20:17:37 beach: I disagree. I think we *can* measure things, but that currently we're either measuring the wrong things or we don't have access to the data or the data goes largely ignored (or something like that) 20:17:42 froydnj: bah. Surely it runs on a Linux Alpha 20:17:59 all other Alphas are defunct by now, having had so many changes of name for their operating system that it's blown the stack 20:19:19 Krystof: Well, HP killed DEC OSF/1, but VMS is still alive (Unix people have been mostly migrating to other unices due, far away from HP-UX) 20:19:21 optikalmouse: I don't care what we call things as long as we don't draw any conclusions about the naming. The problem I see with software engineering is that engineers (I am one, but they typically have a simplistic view of the world) have concluded a number of things based on the name, and those things aren't true. 20:20:35 optikalmouse: We can measure lots of things, but the real question is what we want to accomplish by it, and if we just measure things and use it for some unrelated purpose, then the result is not what we expected. 20:20:39 white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:21:10 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.7.60.240] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:21:31 froydnj: What's the meaning of the blue arrows? 20:21:42 (If you happen to be able to remembeR) 20:22:03 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.170.152] has joined #lisp 20:22:28 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:22:42 tcr: um. 20:23:11 tcr: the source suggests they point to the function invoked in a function call. (apologies for the angry fruit salad) 20:23:54 beach: that is true 20:23:55 Actually it could be more aggressive angry fruit salad for my taste :) 20:23:56 I don't think I have any graphs lying about, though, so I can't see exactly what you're speaking of. 20:24:16 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 20:25:50 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0C9C.versanet.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:25:51 -!- benny` is now known as benny 20:26:47 Krystof: that link was really interesting. 20:27:04 I didn't know all these things had only popped up in the last few years. 20:27:27 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 20:27:38 durka42_ [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 20:27:54 optikalmouse: Just to mention one thing, there are so many negative opinions about software engineering (compared to other branches of engineering) based on the idea that coding is similar to construction. I happen to think that coding and contructing an edifice are activities that have absolutely nothing in common. So any comparison that is based on this idea, to me is bogus. 20:28:14 I wonder why I see references to %ASET in code that's basically just a function doing a destructuring-bind 20:28:20 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 20:28:20 -!- durka42_ [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 20:28:27 beach: "Design Patterns" is a personal favorite of mine. 20:28:50 sykopomp: some of those Design Patterns are useful though. 20:28:52 sykopomp: I like it too, but in relation to what? 20:29:19 beach: in relation to "bogus relationship of architecture and software engineering" 20:29:24 sykopomp: does that book deal with just Java or does it cover Smalltalk stuff? I can't remember... :S 20:29:28 design patterns having originated in architecture 20:29:34 sykopomp: Oh, I thought you were referring to the book. I know what you mean. 20:29:37 optikalmouse: C++ 20:29:57 sykopomp: you know that that message is from 2004, yes? 20:30:44 Krystof: yeah, but there's something really interesting about it, in relation to how people react to lisp a lot of the time. 20:31:06 sykopomp: I'll find the rpg thingy in this book of his that I have where he explains the patterns language stuff 20:31:09 Common Lisp might be based on a bunch of old languages, but it's still striking sometimes how young it actually is. 20:31:25 the same happens now, yes. That's kind of why I was trying to dig up the reference 20:33:26 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 20:33:54 I think what he's saying doesn't just apply to new users, either. I think it's easy to forget that all that MacLisp compatibility amounted to jack shit, and relatively few people have had to build up free library land in order to get things this far. There's a sense of hopelessness in some discussions about CL I've listened to (between experienced lispers), about the state of things. 20:34:51 lichtblau: Going to ELS? 20:34:58 Eh I think I asked that already 20:35:31 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:36:02 sykopomp: you can see it pretty clearly on usenet if you compare comp.lang.lisp with comp.lang.python. 20:36:29 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:37:18 dlowe: do pythonistas run around throwing flowers around the language and building little shrines to how wonderful it is, how well it works, and how many fantastic libraries it benefits from? 20:37:46 sykopomp: according to a friend who went to last PyCon, yes. Yes, they do. 20:37:49 and if so, can I kill them? 20:38:18 hefner: no. We must instead capture them and waterboard them. 20:38:40 Surely, by the 300th 'application', they will spill all the details on how to make the 'community' happy. 20:38:47 sykopomp: we should convert them instead 20:38:47 we might not like the answer, though :) 20:39:08 If Common Lisp is really holding you back, you can either start a clean sheet lisp or fork an open source one and start molding it as you see fit. While you're at it, document your design decisions, with references, demonstrating that you actually researched the issues and prior art. I realize this is a lot of work, but no one is stopping you. (You being the person with the problem with Common Lisp). 20:39:10 optikalmouse: are you mad?! they'll try to enforce s-exp indentation. 20:39:33 Art07 [n=user@84.23.62.56] has joined #lisp 20:39:36 sykopomp: emacs already does that for me O_O 20:39:42 Is there a way to get just the default home directory for a user, easily? Say I save a serialized settings file in my home directory, I want to easily load that without having the *default-pathname-defaults* set to that. 20:39:54 tmh: it isn't CL, it's the libraries, the documentation, which is the *usual* with programming heh 20:40:03 tmh: I sort of wish people were more willing to experiment with existing lisp implementations and do 'research forks'. I'm not sure why that doesn't happen. 20:40:05 TDT: you could just get the HOME environment variable 20:40:06 sykopomp: I think that you might be forgetting that if it hadn't been for MacLisp compatibility, Common Lisp would have been dead from day 1, and we would not have been here at all. I think they made pretty much all the right decisions 20:40:13 While I have not interest in PLOT or Clojure, I respect both efforts for getting of the fence and doing something. 20:40:17 s/not/no/ 20:40:19 dlowe: Hmm, how is that done? 20:40:24 TDT: which implementation? 20:40:30 dlowe: using sbcl 20:40:32 TDT: check where your lisp impl. has access to getenv 20:40:37 TDT: (apropos "getenv") 20:40:41 what's wrong with user-homedir-pathname? 20:40:55 (other than the entire pathnames system) 20:40:57 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:05 hefner: um, that. 20:41:13 beach: oh? I didn't know that. 20:41:22 tcr: no, I wanted to, but then had to change plans. ECLM should work out though. 20:41:53 Ok thanks, will look up getenv. 20:42:11 tmh: my current suspicioun is that people tend to think that we should either resolve the gaps in the hyperspec through 3rd party libraries *first*, and *then* start messing with the standard, or that the standard is just too holy and sacred (and big) to just alter. 20:42:36 maybe it's both. I like to think it's the first, since we'll probably benefit the most that way :) 20:43:56 omg, again with this talk 20:44:09 I'll stop, sorry :< 20:44:12 it's never ending. :) 20:44:32 it's disgusting is what it is dlowe! I didn't drink a coffee just to be entertained by sykopomp's ranting :P 20:44:45 optikalmouse: so you admit you're entertained? 20:45:10 anyway, if it weren't for that, we'd have to talk about the cool lisp projects we're working on 20:45:27 optikalmouse: OT: gonna be in a BS in 6 days. How's day trading in pocket change working out for you? ;p 20:45:30 tombom_ [n=tombomp@86.9.230.99] has joined #lisp 20:45:44 sykopomp: 6mil I'm at I think, let me check 20:45:54 dlowe: indeed 20:45:55 dlowe: hey, I can do that, too, but everyone just wrinkles their nose at my amateurish hackjob. 20:45:56 >_> 20:46:12 is CL Weblocks still being worked on? 20:46:18 yeah 20:46:39 sykopomp: and the intersection between mudders and lispers seems to be a population of 2 20:46:43 so is UCW/LoL 20:46:52 sykopomp: or are you still working on that? 20:46:59 dlowe: I'm talking about http://cliki.net/sheeple 20:47:05 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:10 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 20:47:22 the mud engine is on the shelf for the time being, I've started messing around with other stuff in the meantime. 20:47:24 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:47:27 beach: btw, I was not in any way saying _I_ thought academia was useless, only suggesting a method by which the popular idea might arise 20:47:33 the mud engine actually was going to be interesting 20:47:38 sykopomp wanted to have a web interface for it 20:48:03 optikalmouse: you can want a lot of things. It's a matter of being able to make it happen :P 20:48:18 which would require a message queue, AJAXing and some fancy foot-work heh 20:48:30 sykopomp: hey, I had a small demo of it working! 20:48:31 sykopomp: mine is fully functional now. I've implemented about 50% of the C++ one 20:48:33 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:48:43 sykopomp: in fairness, the original standard took years to produce and was staggeringly expensive; standards are not something you lightly mess with 20:48:56 sykopomp: you can log in, wander around, admire the flowers. Can't kill anything yet. *chuckle* 20:49:01 rsynnott: agreed, actually. 20:49:10 dlowe: do you have an admire command, then? 20:49:19 sykopomp: I do indeed. And flowers. 20:49:25 (and from the commentary on the hyperspec, it looks like quite major things, like loop, only got in right at the end 20:49:34 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@60.Red-79-150-112.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:49:34 and MOP didn't at all, of course 20:49:39 -!- dwave [n=ask@212251218147.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 20:50:02 (which is a shame; it's more the sort of thing that's appropriate to address in a language standard than threading) 20:50:16 dlowe: I realized that there were too many things I still needed to learn how to do to properly implement a project that big. I've gone to smaller things to actually -learn- how to do stuff, as opposed to stressing out about getting a massive project finished before my beard greys. 20:50:26 *rsynnott* marvels at the description of 'sheeple' 20:50:46 (I know people who use that sort of language seriously, sadly) 20:51:01 rsynnott: to be fair, the MOP people were the same people working on the CLOS committee, and AMOP is pretty much treated as a standard. 20:51:07 it's sad. I do, too :( 20:51:26 but not quite; it's still lightly different in different impls 20:51:53 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:52:09 rsynnott: I thought you could say the same about most implementations of CL -- there's little things here and there that don't conform to the spec, right? 20:53:45 dlowe: *wave* (assuming you're the dlowe I know) 20:53:55 AMOP more obviously than most, though; the part of elephant that deals with the MOP stuff is one big file full of #+lispworks, #+sbcl etc 20:54:07 rlpowell: I'm afraid not. Sorry. 20:54:16 Yeah, I eventually figured that out. 20:54:20 yikes 20:54:34 Where did the mudding discussion come from? 20:54:35 rsynnott: isn't closer-mop supposed to handle all that? 20:54:53 rlpowell: I was working on a mud a few months back. 20:55:09 Ah. How'd it go? 20:55:18 it went 20:55:23 Heh. 20:55:26 through about 3 rewrites because I had no idea what I was doing :P 20:55:37 optikalmouse: Yes, weblocks is currently quite active. 20:55:54 now I'm working on other projects, with the idea of being able to reuse some of the code if I ever give the mud another try. 20:55:55 rlpowell: hm, I might try it then. I've been using Seaside/Squeak Smalltalk for the past few months 20:56:07 sykopomp: *nod* 20:56:23 I had something up and running, though, where you could log in, create a character, chat with people, and use the parser (which was mostly social commands) 20:56:30 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:08 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:58:49 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:59:52 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-069-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:00:37 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-069-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:40 -!- tombom [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:01:40 -!- tombom_ is now known as tombom 21:01:57 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:02:12 well that was relatively easy and simple..created a small library to store user information (uid/pass) into a file in the home directory for a much larger script so I don't need to hardcode the information in to use it 21:02:24 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a63e32@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7892989e1aaaa776] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:07:05 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:11:45 josemanuel [n=josemanu@180.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:12:53 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:13:34 -!- ejs [n=eugen@135-8-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:15:10 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:15:32 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:15:41 good night! 21:15:44 night 21:16:04 -!- Athas` is now known as Athas 21:16:08 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 21:16:52 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@180.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 21:18:57 dwave [n=ask@212251218147.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:20:57 -!- dwave [n=ask@212251218147.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Client Quit] 21:20:58 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 21:23:44 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:24:51 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@S01060014bfef2498.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:30:00 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.69.135] has joined #lisp 21:30:23 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:30:24 mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@129.174.69.135] has joined #lisp 21:34:05 anybody know if there's a gbb or just bbs or maybe soar related channel someplace? 21:34:35 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:06 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:35:10 I'm not aware of any, but out of curiosity, what are you using those for? I've read a little about them and have envisioned a couple uses. 21:35:24 nekobaka [n=baka@c-76-29-163-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:43 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:36:45 well I have a general interest and a specific first, as you say, envisioned, use 21:37:18 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:38:31 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:57 Ah, okay. I was thinking it might be feasible to use those for a multi-disciplinary design tool where you have say fluid dynamics code posting results that are consumed by some structural code. As the results get more detailed, higher fidelity analysis packages start consuming data from the board and posting better data. Does that sound reasonable? 21:39:10 obvious if I continue to expand the topic I'd get a hit, next would be support vector machines I suppose 21:39:59 yes, it does 21:40:08 *obviously 21:41:06 tmh, should add that gbb has been discussed here before and you may be able to find mention in the logs 21:41:15 -!- Art07 [n=user@84.23.62.56] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:41:44 Well, it's just a pipe dream at the moment, but I think it has enough merit that I should pursue it, time permitting. 21:42:07 Acknowledged. 21:43:00 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:15 -!- stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has left #lisp 21:43:40 stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:50 -!- stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has left #lisp 21:46:50 stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:02 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.69.135] has quit [Success] 21:48:17 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:50:11 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:02 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:51:20 -!- willb [n=wibenton@144.92.79.183] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:56:22 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.170.152] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:58:41 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:59:00 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:00:52 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit ["omghaahhahaohwow"] 22:00:57 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F855.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:00:59 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 22:01:11 -!- nooper [i=nooper@2001:41c8:0:866:21c:c0ff:fe7f:7198] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:01:11 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:01:11 -!- qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:01:11 -!- Dazhbog [n=sampo@geek.fi] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:01:11 -!- DrForr [n=drforr@eldwist.darkuncle.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:01:11 -!- rumbleca [n=rumble@174.0.46.123] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:01:11 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-63-0-19.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:01:42 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:02:22 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:22 qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 22:02:22 Dazhbog [n=sampo@geek.fi] has joined #lisp 22:02:22 alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-63-0-19.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:22 nooper [i=nooper@2001:41c8:0:866:21c:c0ff:fe7f:7198] has joined #lisp 22:02:22 rumbleca [n=rumble@174.0.46.123] has joined #lisp 22:02:22 DrForr [n=drforr@eldwist.darkuncle.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:35 -!- eirik [i=eirikald@tvilling.pvv.ntnu.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:03:33 -!- tombom [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 22:04:38 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:04:57 -!- optikalmouse [i=4c421287@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-675b76af3769a58b] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 22:05:49 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 22:06:17 eirik [i=eirikald@tvilling.pvv.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 22:08:56 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:12:53 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:14:18 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-6768.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:14:58 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:25 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:25 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:18:33 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:43 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@93.144.17.48] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:55 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit ["omghaahhahaohwow"] 22:22:04 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 22:28:26 -!- HG` [n=wells@91.111.13.16] has quit [Client Quit] 22:30:00 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:16 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 22:35:04 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-069-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:39:04 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:45:42 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:46:25 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6F7F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 22:46:51 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-60.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:48:58 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 22:49:06 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:50:44 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-220.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 22:52:00 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:30 blitz_ [n=blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has joined #lisp 23:00:14 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-220.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 23:00:24 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:01:04 dinendalelanesse [n=dinendal@c-66-229-16-216.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:23 would someone be able to explain the subtle difference between the functions eql 23:01:26 and equal 23:01:35 -!- Modius_ is now known as Modius 23:01:38 clhs eql 23:01:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_eql.htm 23:01:41 clhs equal 23:01:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equal.htm 23:02:18 First off, do you get what EQ is? 23:02:34 -!- mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@129.174.69.135] has quit [] 23:02:52 clhs explains the difference quite good and accessible 23:03:36 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["leaving"] 23:04:38 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:04:46 -!- eirik [i=eirikald@tvilling.pvv.ntnu.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:04:48 2 questions, probably related: Can a (declaim (special be undone? Can declare special be undone at a more innerward scope? 23:05:05 yeah i get eq 23:05:12 i just read the site you sent...much appreciated 23:05:52 Modius: no 23:06:29 perhaps, unintern will lose declaimations also 23:06:47 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:06:56 stassats`: Yeah, the new symbol will be a different symbol of the same name interned 23:07:37 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:07:45 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B2AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:09:05 What's the best spot to actually start in the CLHS to see the read-time and compile-file-time application order of things like (declaim, defparameter etc. vs macro expansion? Or do they all run in order and you need eval-when to control that? 23:09:55 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:10:24 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:11:41 respective pages in clhs? 23:11:42 and also 23:11:45 clhs 3 23:11:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_.htm 23:14:42 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:14:45 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 23:17:44 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:15 jbmigel [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:42 -!- msingh`` [n=user@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:27:43 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-246-189.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 23:31:37 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:34 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 23:35:27 p0a [n=user@athedsl-380118.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:35:43 When we use hunchentoot behind another server with proxy, how can we get the original request uri? 23:36:30 Hello, I'm reading On Lisp by PG, I'm at page 114 stumbled. PG uses 'bounds' without a definition for it, and clhs doesn't seem to mention it. Moreover, I don't understand what a "line segment" is 23:37:12 Which he says they're the only objects handled, and they're represented by an origin (x, y) (I get that part - a point), and a vector (dx, dy), which I don't understand at all 23:37:38 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:54 vector from 0,0 to dx,dy ? 23:38:01 Kangarooo [n=kangaroo@87.246.137.144] has joined #lisp 23:38:11 p0a: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_b.htm 23:38:42 pjb: I don't understand 23:38:55 p0a: read the Glossary. bound is defined there. 23:39:24 p0a: when you add the vector to the point, you get another point. This is the other vertex of the segment. 23:39:30 stassats`: and why is d necessary? why couldn't it be 0,0 to x,y? and I don't understand what you mean with vector 23:40:05 -!- Kangarooo [n=kangaroo@87.246.137.144] has left #lisp 23:40:39 mathematical vector 23:40:44 pjb: PG uses "bounds". As in: (defun move-objs (objs dx dy) (multiple-value-bind (x0 y0 x1 y1) (bounds objs) ... 23:41:06 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:41:11 I found the origin request uri in the header field. thanks. 23:41:48 p0a: oh. Then it means bounding box, the smallest enclosing rectangle with sides parallel to the axis. It's a classic computer graphics notion. 23:42:28 Ah, a vector... See, I'm a foreigner so I don't know the English mathematical terms. 23:42:56 I'll proceed to the book after reading a bit on those things. thanks 23:43:18 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:43:35 -!- mrspec[afk] is now known as mrSpec 23:44:36 p0a: i opened on lisp, i guess he means a vector from x, y to dx,dy 23:47:34 stassats`: thanks, I think I'm the one to blame because I'm unaware of the terms as I said. There's some reading need to be done to refresh both my fundamental mathematics and to get familiar with the terms. Anyway, today I wrote my first macro: http://paste.lisp.org/display/79103 Silly, but made common lisp look more scheme-ish. 23:48:39 p0a: it's ok. You could try to treat also the cases: (define a 42) and (define f (lambda (...) ...)). 23:49:04 damn, i just was going to propose that 23:50:29 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:51:52 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [] 23:52:15 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.254.237] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:53:50 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:54:04 apo [n=apo@pD9E7F1F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:31 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:56:13 I wrote it and it works, but I used two backquotes 23:56:15 WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:24 http://paste.lisp.org/display/79103#1 23:56:43 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [] 23:56:56 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 23:57:14 p0a: that's ok. 23:57:46 p0a: notice that in scheme (define f (lambda (x) (+ 1 x))) (f 2) works, but not with your macro :-( 23:58:01 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-148-234.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:58:21 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-148-234.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:21 Let me attempt once more 23:59:38 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)]