00:00:18 white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:00:43 SBCL seems to often have problems with not getting the address space it wants :) 00:01:07 be careful on some hardened linux kernels :) 00:01:33 Yeah, and address space issues are only going to get worse as time goes by until we actually get a proper fix. 00:01:46 they are? 00:01:53 I think they got a lot *better* 00:02:04 p_l: it doesn't really matter for me as long as the only thing that crashes is sbcl :) 00:02:05 now that we have 64 bits of address space, it's a lot less likely to have a collision. :) 00:02:20 Sure, there's more stuff getting loaded into the address spaces all the time. 00:02:21 <_3b> droogie: it should just refuse to start, not actually crash 00:02:34 foom: Except that Win32 is also moving towards randomized AS :> 00:02:46 well, win64 will be usable some year or other 00:02:59 Moving towards? We've been having address space issues on win32 since day one. 00:03:04 _3b: this is even better :D 00:03:19 (Well, day three, really. Day one was occupied mainly with stack switching issues...) 00:03:31 btw, I stopped having AS allocation problems with lichtblau's patches 00:03:56 Said patches don't (or didn't) work on win32. 00:04:02 *hefner* reads ancient Symbolics manuals, discovers mysterious "Ztop mode" which sounds like a sort of scratch buffer that automatically evaluates and prints completed forms 00:04:04 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:04:04 Even with the relocatable-cold-core fix. 00:04:05 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:04:21 nyef: But could they be rewritten to use Win32 primitives? 00:04:55 Ehh... Semi-sortof. There's still the design around the semantics of brk(), which we don't get on windows. 00:05:01 anyone has idea with lispbuilder-windows 00:05:04 it certainly fixed my problems on linux kernel that didn't permit MAP_FIXED :) 00:05:34 inforichland [n=inforich@96-42-29-58.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:08 I had an issue with bash recently because of the new brk() randomization in 2.6.25. :) 00:06:09 <_3b> are any of the lispbuilder projects still alive besides -sdl and -sdl-* ? 00:06:38 foom: bash4 on 64bit? 00:06:47 http://lispbuilder.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/lispbuilder/trunk/lispbuilder-windows/documentation/index.html 00:06:55 i don't exactly know 00:07:04 p_l: no, 3.2.39 00:07:07 but this page didn't seem deat to me 00:07:38 it only knows how to get memory via sbrk(), and because of a (broken) execshield patch applied to my kernel, executable pages were getting mmaped down around the brk() area, and because of the randomization, sometimes they ended up *after* the brk area, instead of before, which then made memory allocation via sbrk fail, and bash crash 00:07:39 Anyway, modulo the GC dependencies, the relocation patchset could certainly be of use on win32. 00:07:43 hefner: adding a (sleep 0.01) before the run-program call seems to make things much happier 00:07:45 <_3b> droogie: go up a page and see it was last updated 2 years ago :p 00:07:50 It's just that it didn't work when I tried it. 00:07:54 a horrible kludge, of course... 00:08:02 these packages are available in all lispbuilder pages so i thought they are all alive 00:08:14 but i don't know really 00:08:19 every program other than bash falls back to mmap after brk doesn't work anymore, so only bash failed. ;p 00:08:32 _3b: hmm, so that's why its only for win32 :D 00:08:33 <_3b> droogie: may still be useful, even if it isn't actively developed 00:09:13 <_3b> droogie: which, sbcl problems, or lispbuilder-windows? 00:09:37 lispbuilder-windows :) 00:09:54 <_3b> well, win32 api bindings wouldn't be much use on other platforms :) 00:11:08 So, a random file from my current attempt at Win32 API bindings: http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/hgdiobj.lisp 00:11:59 <_3b> on yeah, on the subject of sbcl windows... any idea what it would take to make sb-sprof work on windows? 00:12:13 A miracle? 00:12:17 :) i mean it made me wonder not seeing development for newer technologies 00:12:35 smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:36 <_3b> nyef: yeah, probably :) 00:12:37 Doesn't sb-sprof require a periodic asynchronous interrupt? 00:12:47 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-188-098-215-238.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:13:03 yes, it uses setitimer 00:13:17 I'd assume you can make a thread on windows to do the same thing 00:13:33 You might be able to do something with a separate (non-lisp, obviously) thread that stops the lisp thread periodically to pull its state for the profiler... 00:13:49 Of course, that way lies GC synchronization. 00:15:29 poet [n=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #lisp 00:15:47 ... I think I just saw a use-case that hgidobj.lisp doesn't handle. :-/ 00:16:02 the profiler only gets a stacktrace: that should be reliable even if you're in the middle of GC, no? 00:16:47 Sure. I'm more talking about the whole "stop another thread and check its state" thing being a possible basis for multithreaded GC synchronization (stop-for-gc). 00:17:37 ah, right. 00:18:03 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:18:21 is lispbuilder-sdl able to do 3d or should i use lb-sdl-* libs like openrm or anything, i couldn't get which lib does that 00:18:54 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F4BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:19:48 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:19:55 -!- poet [n=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has quit ["leaving"] 00:20:02 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["G'night!"] 00:20:15 <_3b> droogie: lispbuilder-sdl only does 2d, but it works with cl-opengl 00:21:04 <_3b> droogie: the lispbulder-sdl-cal3d and -sdl-openrm might also do 3d, haven't used those though 00:21:06 Is there a way to change the swank:ed-in-emacs behavior to not pop a new frame? 00:23:43 thanks _3b what you do is great help, especially to a man who thinks emacs will complete "doe" to "doesn't" when pressed TAB :) 00:26:13 it does when i press M-C-/ 00:27:02 no way :) 00:28:09 ... Hunh. I think I found a deficiency in SB-ALIEN's type system. It doesn't very well describe -tagged- alien types. 00:28:33 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:28:44 anyway, good night everyone. 00:29:40 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:30:58 Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp 00:30:59 Time to re-re-evaluate CFFI, I guess. 00:31:25 droogie: don't (use-package :lispbuilder-sdl) 00:32:12 slyrus pasted "run-program crash, now with dtruss output" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78989 00:32:20 _3b: The only other lispbuilder package that I am working on besides -sdl* is openrm. 00:32:26 ping droogie 00:33:37 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 00:34:48 he already said good night 00:35:27 stassats`: Yes, I read that in the channel logs. 00:36:29 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:36:51 Okay, CFFI can't even do -this- much, so that's still out. 00:37:06 minion: memo for droogie: Don't (use-package :lispbuilder-sdl). Don't use lispbuilder-openrm, it is still in flux. Use cl-opengl+lispbuilder-sdl for 3D, it works well. 00:37:07 Remembered. I'll tell droogie when he/she/it next speaks. 00:38:44 Balooga: thanks :) 00:38:44 droogie, memo from Balooga: Don't (use-package :lispbuilder-sdl). Don't use lispbuilder-openrm, it is still in flux. Use cl-opengl+lispbuilder-sdl for 3D, it works well. 00:39:07 cool, it works :) 00:39:36 Hrm... And, given CLG, there's probably space for an alien-type-system type system... 00:39:41 droogie: and use the googlecode repository, not the old one on sourceforge. 00:39:46 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-211-30.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 00:39:57 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-175.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:40:00 for lb-sdl? 00:40:07 droogie: Yes. 00:40:32 http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/wiki/LispbuilderSDL 00:40:34 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:41:18 nyef: CLG? 00:41:57 yes i've used google pages for downloading packages, just linked sourgeforge for docs. 00:41:59 slyrus: A GTK binding. Includes its own FFI that introspects over the declared GTK/GLib type system. 00:42:01 nyef: and here I was wondering if CFFI would one day become sufficient such that one could just remove sb-alien and use CFFI directly for SBCL internals... 00:42:07 ah, ok. 00:42:28 You can't use CFFI for SBCL internals until you have cold CLOS. 00:42:48 Balooga: Updated Apr 10, 2009 by l...@balooga.com :) so are you lispbuilder developer? cool :) 00:42:56 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:42:58 droogie: The docs on sourceforge are at least a year out of date. 00:43:03 And I note that the CFFI documentation doesn't really explain the type system concepts very well at all. 00:43:10 droogie: Yes, that would be me. 00:43:26 I like cffi so very much indeed. 00:44:39 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:45:06 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:45:32 I think I understand enough about SB-ALIEN to describe the lower-level bits, but I don't have a big enough picture to be able to really write about it or replace it with anything better. 00:46:24 Balooga: "don't (use-package :lispbuilder-sdl)" how should i use import lispbuilder sdl? 00:46:59 or i think i should search the docs since i'm giving a real headache to you guys by asking everything 00:47:16 (asdf:operate 'asdf:install :lispbuilder-sdl) 00:47:53 asdf:install? 00:47:59 droogie: then prefix everything using the package nickname SDL: e.g. (SDL:WINDOW 320 240) 00:48:53 stassats`: I got that a little wrong, didn't I. 00:48:59 Just a little. 00:49:09 droogie: (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :lispbuilder-sdl) 00:49:23 :) 00:49:26 Balooga: so this way i won't end up with conflictions right? 00:49:58 droogie: Correct. 00:50:28 Wow, tagged types are already making my head hurt. 00:50:52 ups, i forgot i already added (asdf:operate ..) part to sbclrc initailization file, but i think calling them when i need would be a better approach :) 00:51:07 Because as soon as you have tagged types you get pascal-style variant structures, and then you pick off a slot for one of them and its type is dependent on the value of another slot... 00:52:01 p_l_ [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-99331297243b1af7] has joined #lisp 00:53:39 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:53:40 -!- mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:53:57 kinnetica [n=kinnetic@208-58-64-106.c3-0.129-ubr4.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:54:14 Balooga: so is lispbuilder-windows and other packs still updated? 00:55:58 mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 00:56:47 droogie: -windows, all the -sdl* and I am working hard on getting -openrm out soon. 00:57:35 -!- p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-1a8576310c786b2e] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:57:38 droogie: -regex, -clawk, -lexer and -yacc are good too. 00:58:02 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:58:49 -!- dreish_ is now known as dreish 00:58:52 serbz [n=lol@unaffiliated/serbz] has joined #lisp 00:59:12 My openrm bindings are enough to make grown men cry. 00:59:17 thanks, great work :) by the way, the "creating sbcl executables" link doesn't work in tutorials 00:59:25 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:59:45 i was wondering, is it different than the usual save-lisp-and-die method? 01:00:59 ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:07 ... Does this example use the :sb-executable contrib or something? 01:03:35 I seem to recall that being well superceded by the :executable option to SLAD. 01:03:57 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-163-93.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:11 -!- serbz [n=lol@unaffiliated/serbz] has left #lisp 01:04:14 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 01:04:23 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:04:38 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:05:16 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2FA53.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:06:46 droogie: Not sure. Eric Slaughter created a makefiel to automate the build process. http://common-lisp.net/~eslaughter/darcs/blackthorn/Makefile 01:08:02 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 01:10:48 nyef: don't know. I use lispworks myself. 01:11:03 droogie: If you ask on the mailing list, I'm sure someone will help. 01:11:29 -!- sid__ [n=chatzill@ip68-3-103-196.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:11:42 have to pick up dinner now. bye. 01:11:46 -!- Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has quit ["Balooga has no reason"] 01:11:50 Balooga: thanks, i will. 01:12:21 I'm still surprised anyone uses windows in this day and age. Strange. 01:12:54 droogie: building a standalone sbcl executable is pretty trivial 01:13:18 droogie: http://github.com/sykopomp/yashmup/blob/3d51dee09701aaab185d3f8cb92028cc272d1bb5/make-image.lisp Here's what I use. 01:13:47 sykopomp: It's worse than that. For my current $dayjob, I need a machine running IE6 to access the time and expense system and an XP machine to be able to run the development software. 01:14:16 nyef: gasp. How barbaric. 01:14:20 :-o 01:14:35 There are some absolutely insane system requirements out there, to the point where you can't even -buy- the software required anymore. 01:14:49 sykopomp: is this like makefile? 01:15:25 droogie: yup. Just load up clisp, ccl, or sbcl, and do (load "make-image.lisp") 01:15:34 and it spits out an executable compiled with the implementation you used. 01:15:38 sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4B6EA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 01:15:48 it's a little dirty, I guess, but it's so trivial to do that I don't really care to make it fancier :P 01:16:16 sykopomp: for windows? 01:16:43 droogie: it should work on windows, too. 01:16:48 sykopomp: so you need to do that sometime ? :) 01:16:49 -!- p_l_ is now known as p_l 01:17:09 do what? I don't have a windows box to test my theory on, but there's no OS-specific code in there. 01:17:49 and sabetts had a similar approach for dumping rlx images, so I'm fairly certain it'll work (or can be made to work with a couple of tweaks). 01:18:43 there's nothing fancy about dumping an image, tbh. Load up the systems you need, set up stuff so your foreign libraries load, and finally run the image-dump command for your favorite implementation. 01:19:00 *p_l* is surprised people still haven't ditched XP 01:19:24 "at least it's not vista" 01:19:46 sykopomp: I'd prefer Vista to XP 01:20:03 strange 01:20:56 sykopomp: in fact i don't care about how i run the program, but it would be good to directly send an executable to the people that i need to discuss on it, instead of taking ss of output or telling how to run the code, except that, i'm not even a programmer enough to code something worth distributing :) 01:20:59 erm, is it really strange to choose less broken? It's not my fault applications are written by people who think 98 was pinnacle of operating systems and who don't know what "reserved" means 01:21:15 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:21:23 droogie: that's what that file i sent you does. It builds standalone executables. 01:21:26 I had only one serious "bug" with vista, and it was something that was broken across all 64bit windows versions 01:22:32 sykopomp: hmm, thanks for your help then :) this will be quite helpful :) 01:23:50 What, is there some way to turn vista into a usable and not horribly slow environment? 01:24:09 p_l: "people who think 98 was pinnacle of operating system" :D yes i've heard that before :) 01:24:23 nyef: well, compared to what happened to XP with release of SP2, it's not that slow 01:24:44 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:53 I'm pretty sure SP2 had a lot of spinlocks added for lenghty operations :/ 01:25:06 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has joined #lisp 01:25:07 Not that I can really run vista. My only hardware with a valid vista license is my linux box. 01:25:10 *lengthy 01:25:34 not to mention XP having problems with modern hardware unless you run it in compatibility mode 01:26:48 though for "workstation", I'd love 2k8 enhanced possibly with the tablet stuff from Vista, as it's the only thing it would lack 01:27:03 jli [n=jli@adsl-074-229-201-181.sip.gnv.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:07 p_l: you might get your wish with Win7 01:27:14 -!- white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:27:21 whoovoh i use xp sp2, i had so many issues with it but not any issues to use it in compability mode. 01:27:21 Adamant: Oh, I already did :> 01:27:32 droogie: AHCI. Period. 01:27:42 :P 01:28:12 or the fact that I had seen a laptop that made me wonder what tricks the guy who installed XP on it did achieve that futile goal 01:28:37 I mostly don't care, really. I have VirtualBox, and I have an IE6 machine for at least a little while longer (though I have been considering decommissioning it), so I'm set for now. 01:28:57 -!- jli [n=jli@adsl-074-229-201-181.sip.gnv.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 01:28:58 linux? works. NT6.x? works. NT5.2? AFAIK worked. NT5.1 (XP)? Crash on kernel bootup 01:29:33 What about Win3.11? 01:29:48 nyef: probably wouldn't get to DOS 01:30:01 Probably, more's the pity. 01:30:09 though without Win32, it might work 01:30:12 no, maybe a bit coyness, but not crash :p 01:30:41 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 01:30:57 Also, SP2 represented the biggest slowdown I had ever seen for an operating system. Switch from XP to Vista didn't seem that much xD 01:31:13 I never saw that much slowdown with XP2 01:31:26 Adamant: what was the slowest machine you used it on? :) 01:31:37 probably a Athlon XP 01:31:50 see? quite an overkill for XP/XP SP1 01:32:02 -!- sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B51D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:32:08 XP SP2? "enough for fluid usage" 01:32:34 XP before SP2 ran _fast_ on K6-2 400MHz with 128MB of RAM 01:33:05 maybe it didn't slowdown when you switch sp2 maybe your brain is accelerated :) 01:33:46 droogie: nope. There's a sense of wonder when people don't believe you that it was possible to play games other than Minesweeper with XP on K6-2 400 01:33:49 also i dedicate this sentence to the "there is no x" guys in channel 01:35:56 the only things i hate about windows are its own disturbing bootloader and drwatson :) 01:37:01 naah i'm kidding there is much more than that, but still, its a useful environment for the dummy in "dummies guide series" 01:38:42 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:39:03 hmm... anyone using CouchDB with CL? 01:39:04 anyway i need to sleep it is 4:38 am here :) 01:39:19 good night/day everyone 01:39:35 -!- kinnetica [n=kinnetic@208-58-64-106.c3-0.129-ubr4.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 01:39:46 droogie: g'night 01:42:07 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:01 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:54:26 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:55:08 -!- cipher [n=cipher@pool-173-48-136-239.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:00:50 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:02 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 02:03:58 legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-37-237.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 02:05:09 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-2533ea24083fdac2] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:06:58 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:09:32 -!- inforichland [n=inforich@96-42-29-58.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [] 02:11:30 joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 02:12:41 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:27 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:18:13 hmmm, one small shortcoming in an otherwise perfect piece of ediware; drakma doesn't have a user-bindable *user-agent-string*. 02:18:25 -!- sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4B6EA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:22:51 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1176023512.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:25:15 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-34-251.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:22 -!- Ginei_Morioka [n=irssi_lo@78.114.190.234] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:26:29 Ginei_Morioka [n=irssi_lo@78.114.165.52] has joined #lisp 02:32:49 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:33:56 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:03 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:36:47 -!- nyef [n=nyef@24.220.182.229] has quit ["G'night all."] 02:36:52 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:33 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:38:38 -!- fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:39:05 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-68-142-74.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:39:12 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-68-142-74.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:39:42 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-189.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 02:40:45 -!- psheldr [n=Miranda@217.13.173.72] has quit ["Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org"] 02:45:15 verendus [n=brendan@173-22-221-125.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 02:49:46 Noll_Noll [n=28@c-ee70e253.4542024--62697410.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 02:56:59 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 03:01:16 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:46 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:10:11 _dulouz [n=ross@dsl254-119-219.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:47 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 03:13:39 Is there a way to dynamically expand a macro in run time? 03:14:07 clhs macroexpand 03:14:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mexp_.htm 03:14:09 (macroexpand-1 '(macro-call foo (hey) (uh huh))) 03:14:40 <_3b> if you need that aside from debugging though, possibly the macro should be a normal function 03:15:01 stassats`: sykopomp: thanks! I have been using macroexpand only for debugging. 03:16:00 _3b: uhm, yes, I know what you mean. thanks for your advice. 03:16:22 <_dulouz> hi folks, i have a questions about slime, swank, and ssh forwarding. it might be a long question... 03:16:42 <_dulouz> say I have an ssh tunnel set up so i can connect my local emacs to a remote swank server, all works fine. if within emacs i do a C-x C-f to open a file it would seem to open the local file. 03:17:25 <_dulouz> if i compile that file with C-c C-k, it would compile it into the remote lisp image, right? 03:18:22 <_dulouz> and if that compiled file referenced things like (with-open-file "/some/file") or whatever, that "/some/file" would have to be on the remote computer, right? 03:18:43 <_dulouz> i think that's it for now 03:18:56 <_3b> did you try it? 03:19:09 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:19:11 _3b: could you tell me what kind of new error messages you saw after turning on debugging? I've declaimed (debug 3) (safety 3) and I don't think I'm seeing anything new; thinking I'm doing it wrong 03:19:21 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:19:37 <_3b> _delouz: the with-open-file part sounds right, don't remember how C-c C-k behaves 03:19:40 <_dulouz> _3b: well, yes, however i happen to have the same files locally and remote. i guess i could change something on one of them 03:19:46 if you are free that is 03:19:53 mjonsson [n=mjonsson@66-234-42-75.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:49 <_3b> tsuru: at some point you use with-slots (var slot-name) instead of ((var slotname))... verts in last 3 functions in triangle.lisp if i remember right 03:21:05 <_3b> tsuru: if not i can check in a few min 03:21:35 <_dulouz> i guess maybe my real question is if it is possible to open a remote file and compile that into the remote lisp image, instead of opening a local file and compiling into the remote lisp image. 03:22:00 <_dulouz> or maybe i just need to play around more 03:22:00 <_3b> _dulouz: i usually just work with the files on the remote machine, and use slime-filename-translations to load them over a network share or whatever 03:22:01 <_dulouz> :D 03:22:04 tramp allows you to edit remote files, though. 03:22:09 hm 03:22:46 <_dulouz> ah, slime-filename-translations... that was mentioned in that one video. 03:22:55 <_dulouz> back to playing a bit more 03:23:03 <_3b> _dulouz: yeah, sounds like that is what you want, possibly combined with tramp 03:23:16 <_dulouz> no idea what tramp is, but i'll look it up 03:23:27 <_3b> emacs stuff for dealing with remote files 03:23:27 <_dulouz> thanks for atleast being a sounding board :) 03:24:25 _3b: alright, I'll check it, but I'm still curious if I'm correctly turning on debugging. 03:24:38 hugod_ [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279774755.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:24:40 <_3b> tsuru: what lisp do you use? 03:25:26 <_3b> tsuru: or maybe you fixed it already and forgot to check it in :) 03:26:47 SBCL 1.0.27... heh if that be the case, good 03:27:40 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:27:50 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1176023512.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:27:50 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 03:27:53 <_3b> ok, we should be getting the same errors then... don't think i changed anything aside from removing the debug stuff in the vector file, maybe you just haven't done a full recompile? 03:28:08 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 03:29:17 I want to dynamically expand lisp codes written in another file inside a lexical scope. Is there any better way to do it than this one? http://paste.lisp.org/display/78993 03:29:52 I have, but everything quieted down when I added the debug levels... should I still be passing it (speed 3) as well? 03:30:15 <_3b> speed 3 is fine, bit noisy though if you use it everywhere 03:30:49 <_3b> tomoyuki28jp: you might want to use the environment parameter to macroexpand 03:31:49 _3b: I am not sure what you mean by "use the environment parameter to macroexpand". Could you explain that to me? 03:32:00 last question before I get back to debugging, did you see colors from triangles or just the two colors of the ground reflection and sky-emission? 03:32:58 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:33:54 <_3b> tomoyuki28jp: macroexpand take an optional param that lets it see local macros/symbol-macros... not actually sure it applies to your case though 03:34:10 <_3b> tsuru: yeah, it was showing the scene 03:34:43 <_3b> (at least most of it, possibly was losing a chunk of 1 corner) 03:34:46 _3b: I see. I will take a look at the manual. thanks for your advice. 03:36:26 <_3b> tomoyuki28jp: not sure what that code tries to do though 03:38:34 _3b: I have created my own s-expression markup language, and I want to use the code for the template system for working with designers. http://github.com/tomoyuki28jp/sml/blob/9f00eb9eef85260e5be66783f2c56b9dc343f054/src/sml.lisp 03:40:28 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.196.186] has joined #lisp 03:40:52 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032608]"] 03:41:18 <_3b> tomoyuki28jp: are you saying you want it to print "x" there, or that it does? (or returns "x") 03:42:31 _3b: I want to execute any codes written in another file inside the current lexical scope. 03:51:37 rolly1975 [n=rory@111.387.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au] has joined #lisp 03:52:50 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:56:45 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Client Quit] 03:57:50 neat. symbolics had a pathname syntax for addressing the branch and vc-version (not the filesystem version) of a file under version control 03:58:51 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-221-38.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:03 -!- verendus [n=brendan@173-22-221-125.client.mchsi.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:06:44 hefner: how ? 04:09:56 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:36 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:11:42 -!- mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:11:49 they added a separator character (a little diamond-shaped glyph) after the regular path, and then vc-branch.vc-version after that. It's not clear to me how this was integrated into the system. 04:12:40 I get the impression the tools were augmented to operate on files in version control format specially, rather than having a checked out copy of a particular version on disk, but I'm not certain. 04:14:44 wow 04:14:55 minion: chant 04:14:55 MORE ACCURATE 04:15:22 *hefner* glares at minion 04:16:30 *hefner* wonders if the VC tools were ever rolled into Genera, or if they remained in-house. I never stumbled upon them, tinkering with Genera. 04:17:39 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 04:18:15 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:18:32 -!- hugod_ [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279774755.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:18:40 Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 04:19:13 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 04:19:57 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:20:07 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:18 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:22:28 ok... I'm writing a client for a binary protocol (read data stored like C). Is there an easy way to write signed ints and floats from lisp to this or do I need to do a lot of work? 04:23:46 signed ints are easy. floats, not so much. 04:24:02 Good morning. 04:24:17 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:24:18 wlr_ [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:22 mindstab: you might take a look at the chapter in Practical Common Lisp about parsing binary format. 04:24:24 formats. 04:24:25 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 04:24:25 minion: ieee-floats 04:24:26 ieee-floats: IEEE-Floats provides a way of converting values of type float and double-float to and from their binary representation as defined by IEEE 754 (which is commonly used by processors and network protocols). http://www.cliki.net/ieee-floats 04:24:58 gigamonkey: that was a good start, it got me up to doing unsigned ints 04:25:06 gigamonkey: but not floats 04:25:08 Yeah. Floats are a bit of a pain. 04:25:32 However, CL gives you all the bits you need to put together and pull apart floats. 04:25:49 gigamonkey: oh yeah? 04:25:59 You'll just need to grok the binary format in whatever protocol you're implementing. 04:26:27 clhs: decode-float 04:26:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dec_fl.htm 04:26:33 clhs: integer-decode-float 04:26:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dec_fl.htm 04:26:45 hefner: did you see my note about the (sleep 0.01) bit? 04:26:57 slyrus: I did. 04:27:10 mindstab: see those two functions. 04:27:57 ok. it, of course, doesn't help on the hunchentoot end, as that doesn't prevent two run-program requests from coming in at the same time. it seems to be something about getting multiple simultaneous-ish run-programs going that blows things up. 04:29:11 thanks. so i'm kind of surprised, is this really that uncommon? 04:29:54 what is (uncommon)? 04:30:15 sharing data like floats in a binary C format? 04:30:24 binary C format is meaningless 04:30:34 most other languages like obviously C, python and ruby all have built in support for it 04:30:54 they're doing it wrong. That's a non-protocol you're describing. 04:31:02 slyrus: I couldn't make much sense of it. It seemed like the stack was getting corrupted in the sigchld handler, but there's a lot I don't undersetand. 04:31:51 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-30.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:33:34 pkhuong: well, ok, the protocol i'm looking at, the c client server just prints its raw data to the wire, and python and ruby use their respective pack() and unpack() methods to read and write to the wire 04:33:48 pkhuong: but it looks like lisp has nothing comparable 04:33:49 that's wonderfully unportable. 04:34:09 sure it has, you've already been pointed to ieee-floats. You only have to pray it works, now. 04:35:17 pkhuong: they do a little checking i think to make sure it its signed unsigned 04:35:17 do they also send machine ints without checking endianness while they're at it? 04:35:18 ieee-floats converts it to a number/string thing, but the actual binary format i'm looking for 04:35:18 i'm looking at writing lisp support for facebook's thrift RPC frame work 04:35:33 frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.115.144] has joined #lisp 04:35:40 mindstab: improve your reading skills, it's useful. 04:35:56 mindstab: If you must use incredibly stupid 'protocols' like that, I suggest that you use a broker to translate them to something civilized. 04:36:28 mindstab: groking floats is really not going to be that hard. 04:36:35 ah it looks like they make some provisions for endianness I think 04:36:38 I even have a vague recollection I did it for something. Let me look around. 04:36:50 You'd just better hope that all the world's a 32 bit x86. 04:37:39 ISTR some machines with a different endianness for FP and integer values. (nevermind Vax's mix-endian ;) 04:38:07 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-201-76.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:38 gigamonkey pasted "Float parsing code for binary-data" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78995 04:39:09 wow thanks! 04:39:34 dealing with double-floats is left as an exercise for the reader. 04:39:42 haha ok 04:40:04 VAX is not mix-endian, but 32-bit longs on PDP-11 was 04:40:20 Also, no guarantees that code actually works--looks like it should though. 04:44:26 -!- _dulouz [n=ross@dsl254-119-219.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:44:41 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 04:54:18 -!- frank_s__ [n=FrankS@41.145.115.144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:57:41 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 05:00:01 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-127-159.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:30 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 05:02:42 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 05:06:17 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 05:06:41 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:09:39 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:13:02 Hell 05:13:03 o 05:13:36 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-221-38.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:14:52 good morning. 05:15:55 mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has joined #lisp 05:16:08 hello tic_ 05:16:11 hello MrSpec 05:17:11 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Success] 05:22:50 Krystof: yeah, ok. I see the logic with not trying to support old releases. Turns out my motivation for wanting the old versions was flawed anyway. 05:23:33 excellent! Winnage all round! 05:25:48 of course the bug I was hoping to track down is still there, but that's another (sad, old) story... 05:26:32 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 05:27:34 it would be nice to add this to the run-program test if it didn't blow up so heinously: (loop for i below 100 do (sb-ext:run-program "/bin/echo" '("It would be nice if this didn't crash.") :wait nil :output nil)) 05:29:54 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-197-101.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:00 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-197-101.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:30:22 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-197-101.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:55 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-189.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:39:11 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 05:40:09 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [] 05:40:53 vy` [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 05:45:16 groove is in the heart, [bogus stack! heap exhaustion error! hand-of-the-gun-or-the-kitten-getsit] is a state of mind! remind me not pit FFI-locked resources against lisp-locked ones. *sigh* 05:45:28 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 05:46:13 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-2b60308ba51d575c] has joined #lisp 05:46:30 Is there any semaphore support in CLISP? 05:47:00 -!- mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:47:07 vy`: clisp has multiprocessing? 05:47:09 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:47:19 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:23 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-2b60308ba51d575c] has left #lisp 05:47:29 fusss: That's a better question. 05:47:30 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 05:48:40 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:48:46 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:48 nnnnnope! but most others do mutual exclusion utils; bordeaux-threads' with-lock-held is all i ever needed 05:49:49 i think bordeaux-threads is missing a semaphore api .. should be trivial to add though 05:50:46 it only has locks/mutexes and they be enough. i forget the formal distinction; one is for access to a shared variable, the other is for synchronization? (i.e. mutex vs semaphore) 05:51:40 one is for shared memory multiprocessing the other for message passing semantics .. i think 05:51:44 semaphores can count; mutex can only count up to 1. 05:52:00 lock and mutex is the same, fusss .. or at least "lock" is the only thing exported by bt .. and the "lock"-thingies are implemented by sb-thread:mutex type stuff in SBCL's case 05:52:37 lnostdal: yeah, i said lock/mutexes :-) 05:53:06 oh, i thought you meant distinction between lock and mutexes .. :) 05:54:06 Does b-t's recursive-lock count as a semaphore? 05:54:20 no. 05:54:45 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-26-184.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:55:12 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:57:10 I might be mistaken but semaphores generally cost much more than mutexes for IPC stuff. (E.g. two distinct processes can synchronize states using semaphores, but mutexes are just shared among threads.) 05:57:47 difrezio [n=difrezio@fw-nat.sovintel.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:56 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:59:06 anyone play with mozart/oz? 05:59:51 that bloody system is dying for a repl. never has something so good been wasted on a bad read/edit/save/compile/run life cycle. i use it to prototype stuff :-) 06:02:41 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 06:03:36 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:04:28 -!- difrezio [n=difrezio@fw-nat.sovintel.net] has left #lisp 06:05:16 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:14:56 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:31:20 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:32:45 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:33:20 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:34:45 moonblink [n=moonblin@c-75-72-165-51.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:24 yo dog, QUIT is not a standard function? 06:38:52 <_3b> where would you QUIT to on a lisp machine? 06:38:56 wow, there is no portable way to terminate a running lisp! ROFLMAO 06:39:16 _3b: i just realized that 06:39:21 hehe 06:40:25 *lnostdal* tries to imagine how it would be to have support for processes in his lisp impl. 06:40:40 it's a fucking honor to be part of this thing. i remember how i had to specify the disk, sector and cylinder of every "block" I read into memory in forth way way back. that was a novelty. and this comes like a close second. 06:41:04 i mean; a situation where "the main lisp" just never dies .. and it is the processes (new lisps?) who spawn and despawn etc. 06:41:12 _3b: you do turn computer off 06:41:15 even lisp machines 06:41:52 (restart :run-level 0) or some such 06:41:53 -!- moonblink [n=moonblin@c-75-72-165-51.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:42:06 <_3b> guaqua: and how many languages do you know that standardize doing so? 06:43:17 _3b: how many languages do have 'language' machines? 06:43:41 <_3b> java, forth, probably a few others :p 06:43:43 i think Sun tried something like that with Java .. guess that didn't work out 06:44:07 <_3b> whoever makes those super parallel java machines probably disagrees 06:44:07 _3b: grrh.. you know what i mean :) 06:44:11 _3b: jmp 0xffff:0000 ;-) 06:45:04 moonblink [n=moonblin@c-75-72-165-51.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:10 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 06:45:34 you might need to move that to a combination of ax and dx first 06:45:38 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-126-133.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:45:48 my 16-bit x86 is rusty 06:46:05 good morning 06:47:09 hey mvilleneuve 06:47:40 <_3b> i suppose you could argue there are C machines too :p 06:48:00 C and C++ machines, i'd say :> 06:48:30 guaqua: there is still no hardware support for vtables ;-) 06:49:00 though that would have made allot of thing way way faster 06:49:35 fusss: sure there are; indirect branch predictors are pretty good. 06:49:45 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [] 06:51:05 pkhuong: where is that implemented in hardware? (genuine question for my own learning, not being cheeky ;-) 06:51:57 >= Pentium 3, maybe even P2/PPro. 06:52:05 -!- moonblink [n=moonblin@c-75-72-165-51.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:53:32 i had to squint real hard to grok what you meant 06:53:45 branch prediction for indirect jumps 06:55:51 lisp programs never die, they just return a value 06:55:55 fusss: would "branch target buffer" have been clearer? 06:56:25 pkhuong: my verbal intelligence is often lacking at this hour 06:57:26 i have beer on the counter and trance music at intolerable volume :-P 06:58:26 trance music is intolerable at any volume 06:59:10 so here is where my idols went .. fucking corporate http://www.google.com/corporate/execs.html 06:59:40 they got Holzl and Hennessy ;-( 07:01:41 hefner: *sigh*, i hope i respond to your craigslist ad for a roommate some day! 07:07:01 fwiw, myspace is coming undone as we speak (OT for #lisp, but check out the rss feeds!) 07:09:42 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:10:25 hey, I'm running emacs on someone elses server, using x forwarding, but I get the terminal version.. 07:11:08 there doesn't seem to be a .emacs file or anything 07:11:15 you're probably not x forwarding 07:11:18 or running emacs-nox 07:11:25 those are the only possibilities 07:11:33 xemacs works fine 07:11:53 and there's both emacs and emacs-nox.. 07:12:40 aha.. emacs is a link to /etc/alternatives/emacs, which is a link to /usr/bin/emacs-nox 07:14:30 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 07:14:55 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B45E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:47 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:16:07 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 07:16:28 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 07:17:41 tombom [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 07:18:43 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:21:58 <_3b> yay, finally got stuff to clip in .swf files... time for sleep 07:22:06 gonzojive [n=red@c-76-102-117-117.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:39 <_3b> apparently defining fill styles in a style change shape record confuses clipping or something 07:23:56 <_3b> fill styles or line styles that is 07:24:54 Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has joined #lisp 07:25:26 sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4B6EA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:26:19 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B45E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:34:05 gioz [n=gio@88.244.10.83] has joined #lisp 07:34:05 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:34:30 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:38:21 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No 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[n=dsl@24.196.26.7] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:36:16 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88.96.24.54] has joined #lisp 08:40:57 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-189.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:41:56 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:42:00 hello 08:46:04 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:47:35 mega1 [n=mega@83.216.46.4] has joined #lisp 08:48:36 hello attila_lendvai, nice to see you here 08:49:03 *kami-* was waiting to bug attila_lendvai with his questions 08:49:16 hello kami- 08:49:30 *attila_lendvai* is quite busy, but will try to be useful 08:50:42 attila_lendvai: I have tried to mimick the wudemo test app as much as possible, but still have the problem, that ajax calls hang because there is no top-component 08:51:01 kami- pasted "why no top-component?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78999 08:52:37 attila_lendvai: I thought a frame-component *is* a top-component: (def component frame-component (top-component ... 08:54:17 kami-: dunno. random thought: when using an inline-component then the parent-chain of the components is broken. 08:54:38 attila_lendvai: thank you. will try to debug it along that line. 08:54:54 kami-: and try to put a break somewhere and inspect *frame* and see how the comp hierarchy looks... 08:55:17 attila_lendvai: will do. 08:57:31 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:57:58 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:35 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 08:59:35 when a break puts me in sldb, shouldn't s single step from that point on? 09:01:06 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-223.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:05:00 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:05:09 swilde [n=wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has joined #lisp 09:06:53 -!- holycow [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:07:31 -!- 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09:58:57 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 10:01:09 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:01:09 -!- manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:02:11 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:02:13 rdd [n=user@c83-250-153-45.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:03:02 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-7991.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:04:27 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-139.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:06:31 how come src/compiler/ir1-step.lisp is present in git but not in cvs? 10:07:02 holycow [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:26 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:09:45 HET2 [i=diman@128.131.95.22] has joined #lisp 10:10:28 mega1: uh 10:10:59 mega1: this sounds like badness 10:11:24 it's not used but still ... 10:11:32 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-197-101.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:49 mega1: looks like it might have been deleted, and the deletion didn't get caught by cvsimport 10:11:54 aw, crap. 10:14:28 -!- jamin1001 [n=jamin100@38.98.212.230] has quit [] 10:15:54 -!- gioz [n=gio@88.244.10.83] has left #lisp 10:16:04 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 10:17:29 do you have an idea when it could have vanished? (: 10:19:00 date: 2006/09/18 20:09:14; author: jsnell; state: dead; lines: +0 -0 10:19:11 antifuchs: 0.9.16.38: 10:20:30 hmm. severe WTFing 10:20:33 going on now 10:23:57 MrSpec_ [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 10:25:33 could have been a concurrency problem with the conversion cron job and the file deletion; the commit looks to have happened precariously close to the time the converter cron job runs. 10:25:51 I'll re-do the conversion of the sbcl repo, and see if it picks the deletion up now. 10:26:23 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:26:31 -!- MrSpec_ is now known as mrSpec 10:28:41 -!- KingNato [n=KingNato@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 10:31:24 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 10:35:21 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:01 cracki [n=cracki@43-029.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:37:15 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 10:38:38 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 10:38:38 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:38:43 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:51:41 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@novelletto.bio.uniroma2.it] has joined #lisp 10:52:23 hello 10:53:49 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-153-45.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:54:29 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-153-45.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:55:25 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 10:56:20 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:39 -!- HET2 [i=diman@128.131.95.22] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:05:11 attila_lendvai: you were right: map-child-components of course doesn't inspect what's _inside_ an inline-component (and that't were I put the counter-component) 11:06:53 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442133.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:07:03 kami-: yep. if you want the automatic component redraw with ajax then you need to play by that rule... it bothers me, because sometimes an inline-component is so much more handy, but that the state of affairs for now... 11:07:40 attila_lendvai: I did that because I was experimenting with a completely dojo-based layout. Wait ... 11:07:57 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:08:20 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442133.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 11:08:26 kami- annotated #78999 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78999#1 11:08:59 -!- mas01dl [n=david@78.150.1.97] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:09:25 attila_lendvai: that's the example from the dojo mail app. What would you recommend? Shall I create a component for each dojo widget? 11:11:48 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-56-213.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 11:12:29 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:15:14 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 11:16:21 -!- spacebat_ is now known as spacebat 11:16:43 Doesn anyone remember what CLIM function is called on a command so that it will accepts its arguments and invoke the command? 11:17:02 *Does 11:22:42 I don't think there is a single function 11:23:08 I think it's read-frame-command / execute-frame-command, with possible interactions with *command-parser* and *partial-command-parser* 11:23:12 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:23:15 clim 11.9 11:23:16 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 11.9. 11:23:18 bah 11:23:53 kami-: dunno. you can also do things like render-dojo-dialog in dojo.lisp 11:24:34 fe[nl]ix: When can we see `JOIN-THREAD' for CCL in a bordeaux-threads release? 11:25:12 kami-: but i think for the layout stuff, we should create full components 11:25:38 Xof: Hmm, yes. 11:25:52 vy`: whenever sellout finds time for a release 11:27:16 attila_lendvai: I'll give the full components version a try 11:27:20 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B45E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:30 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-197-101.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:30:44 Xof: One of my students is trying to invoke commands with at least one argument from a menu bar, and this still doesn't work in McCLIM. 11:31:13 I remember getting around it by doing explicit accepts in a command with 0 arguments. 11:31:47 how is your student specifying the command in the menu bar? 11:32:25 Xof: only by its name 11:32:43 Xof: he wants the user to be prompted for the arguments 11:32:47 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-56-213.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:33:04 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:33:20 I'm fairly sure it works at least in ESAs 11:33:36 the default partial-command-parser or menu-command-parser might be broken 11:33:43 Doesn't appear to work. 11:33:50 He is using an ESA. 11:34:05 In Gsharp, I use the "manual" method. 11:34:35 However, I think doing (accept 'command) seems to do it. 11:34:44 -!- droogie` [n=user@88.238.222.4] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:34:56 So I guess I could look in the accept presentation method and see what it does. 11:34:56 droogie` [n=user@88.238.222.4] has joined #lisp 11:35:19 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442133.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:35:19 as a data point: using the manual method is very annoying, because it means the application isn't scriptable 11:35:27 because other applications can't use execute-frame-command 11:36:09 when you say "he is using an ESA", is he using the esa top level? is his frame subclassing esa-application-frame? is he using the esa command parsers? 11:36:12 Yes, I know the problem 11:36:25 Xof: all of the above 11:36:26 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:07 hrm 11:37:52 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:37:56 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:41:28 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 11:41:31 kiuma_ [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:46:59 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442133.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 11:47:50 manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:47:50 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:48:00 oudeis [n=oudeis@89.138.56.213] has joined #lisp 11:49:42 These are also only present in git (in src/runtime): 11:49:42 ppc-darwin-dlshim.cppc-darwin-dlshim.hppc-darwin-langinfo.cppc-darwin-langinfo.hx86-darwin-langinfo.c 11:49:52 (for antifuchs) 11:56:46 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@134.184.43.85] has joined #lisp 11:58:26 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 11:58:32 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:59:07 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89.138.56.213] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:59:42 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 12:00:19 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:01:16 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:00 Ragnaroek [i=54a654c2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5447372ef863cead] has joined #lisp 12:02:03 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 12:02:07 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:03:02 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:14 spiaggia: I'm afraid all I can say is "it works for me", admittedly after spending some time trying to work out the syntax of all the wretched things 12:05:39 rolly1975 [n=rory@111.387.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:05:58 Xof pasted "simple esa with menu command acceptance" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79005 12:07:02 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:43 tcr pasted "Why doesn't SBCL complain about this at compile-time? (type inference)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79008 12:13:58 sohum [n=sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has joined #lisp 12:14:14 are there logs for #lisp somewhere? 12:14:20 minion: logs 12:14:20 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 12:14:40 thankee 12:14:54 Could an SBCL expert take a look at my paste, please? 12:15:28 Ah I'm stupid, I thought that was an easy case, but it isn't easy at all 12:15:47 -!- sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4B6EA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:16:04 Inlining QUUX would do it, of course, otherwise it would require strong interprocedural analysis 12:16:37 why is it allowed to omit (function ...) when I return a function as a lambda-expression? 12:17:06 Ragnaroek: http://trittweiler.blogspot.com/2008/12/on-relationship-of-lambda-and-lambda.html 12:18:37 mmm sugar 12:19:14 tcr: because (1+ y) is of type T 12:19:25 sbcl trusts your declaration 12:19:32 I see, thx 12:19:47 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:19:57 plutonas [n=plutonas@nomad50159.netlogon.lu.se] has joined #lisp 12:20:17 fe[nl]ix: Nah, I thought it would be smart enough to figure out the relationship between argument and result 12:20:42 what relationship ? 12:21:02 that the result of the function is the argument itself, in this case 12:21:10 and ? 12:21:23 and since the return type is a string, the argument must be a string 12:22:08 upgrading the signature to (function (t) t) would be a reasonable action too 12:22:27 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 12:23:01 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:23:20 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:23:40 silently changing it to (function (string) string) might not be correct because this could be a bug 12:24:51 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 12:26:20 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 12:26:49 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:40 I think you're confused, it doesn't change the ftype in any way 12:28:18 -!- CrazyEddy [n=Cantoria@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [No route to host] 12:29:35 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 12:32:35 tcr: not currently, but how would you implement what you want if not by having the compiler detect the discrepancy between the type declaration and the definition of QUUX 12:32:54 which would then change the signature of QUUX to (function (string) string) 12:32:56 ? 12:34:54 fe[nl]ix: He doesn't. You're in violent agreement. 12:35:33 p0a [n=user@79.131.44.244] has joined #lisp 12:35:53 Hello, I'm reading PGs book, On lisp, and I'm at page 94 where he gives a definition for our-dolist, akin to dolist 12:35:56 http://paste.lisp.org/display/79011 12:35:58 -!- sohum [n=sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has left #lisp 12:36:16 I don't understand why let is used here... why (let ((,var nil)) ...) 12:36:57 "At the time result-form is processed, var is bound to nil." 12:37:43 Ah! thanks 12:38:10 peculiarity of dolist then... 12:38:20 But then, PG chooses to ignore "The body of dolist is like a tagbody. It consists of a series of tags and statements", and "An implicit block named nil surrounds dolist". So really, you could call it capriciousness. 12:38:26 p0a: 12:38:32 CrazyEddy [n=lenticel@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 12:38:44 p0a: and other high level iteration constructs in CL. 12:38:53 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-33-84.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:38:54 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-189.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:39:23 Beket [n=stathis@adsl-255-030.diodos.auth.gr] has joined #lisp 12:39:29 pkhuong: in this case I'd expect the compiler to signal a warning saying "Fix your type declaration" then discard the type declaration 12:39:51 fe[nl]ix: it's not discarded, it's trusted. 12:40:18 trust means it breaks if you do what you were trusted not to though 12:40:33 pkhuong: yes, I see that. I argue that it should be discarded 12:40:41 p0a: so don't lie. 12:41:03 pkhuong: I was trying to say that this is not what is happening, so perhaps trust is not the correct word. Then again, when I think of it now, it might be so. 12:42:37 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@c-24-130-53-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:42:44 p0a: It won't break silenty under your feet unless you go with (safety 0) 12:43:02 tcr: sounds like a bad idea 12:43:03 tcr: not necessarily, I don't think. 12:43:14 p0a: (safety 0) is indeed usually a bad idea. 12:44:10 fe[nl]ix: It might be right. Python might infer T -> T, but really, the function only returns when given strings as inputs. CL really doesn't give us enough static information to have a warning here; a style warning, maybe. 12:44:29 pkhuong: I'm sorry but I'm generally very bad at wrapping my head around double-negation in human language; are you saying it can silently break under your feed if you go with a safety level > 0? 12:45:06 tcr: no, it will break under your feet only you have safety level 0, 12:45:08 tcr: I think he's saying that it won't necessarily break silently with (safety 0) 12:46:11 so many interprentations... so little time :-) I must go... thanks for the help 12:46:12 -!- p0a [n=user@79.131.44.244] has quit ["bye"] 12:46:16 tcr: you can have trouble with bad ftype declarations even at SAFETY > 1. 12:47:45 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:48:07 erh, > 0 (or 1, for that matter :). Didn't you hit such a bug in SBCL's readtable code a couple months ago? 12:50:21 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-145-68.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:51:18 There was some wrong information in the fndb 12:51:21 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:52:07 Generalized booleans are not kind to static typing, either. 12:52:23 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 12:53:34 So it seems you need a DEFKNOWN to write a DEFTRANSFORM? 12:54:01 tcr: yup. Otherwise deftransform doesn't have any struct to hang the transfom off ;) 12:54:08 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E875.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:13 what's "struct" here? 12:55:54 tcr: a fun-info structure. 12:56:44 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:00:41 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 13:01:24 re ftype declarations, the only thing that saves you at > 0 safety is that if you declaim before the defun, the defuned function will perform the type checking. A local ftype declaration, redefinition via (setf fdefinition), etc., will still bite you because the caller trusts ftypes. (lambda (x) (declare (ftype (function (simple-base-string) t) foo)) (foo x) x) is assumed to return a string, and, say, (aref x 0) after the call to F 13:01:53 Greetings. So, I'm reading over the Franz impressions of ILC 2009 and I notice that there was a Literate Programming talk with a CL implementation. Did anyone here see this talk? Is the implementation in any way related to AXWeb? 13:03:45 ljosa [n=ljosa@gm3b6-dd5.broad.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 13:03:49 -!- ljosa [n=ljosa@gm3b6-dd5.broad.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 13:08:42 Knirgh [n=ad_m91@c-490be155.232-5-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:08:54 -!- Knirgh [n=ad_m91@c-490be155.232-5-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 13:09:18 deliana [n=deliana@147.210.246.189] has joined #lisp 13:09:40 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-126-133.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:11:47 Okay, question 2, where can I get the papers from ILC 2009? 13:12:33 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6FE3A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:29 chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-094-216-069-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:53 -!- chris2_ is now known as chris2 13:18:49 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-158-174.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 13:21:52 kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:31 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:24:48 how close are we to an SBCL freeze for this month? 13:25:20 attila_lendvai: how can I test my render method 'standalone' (without a page reload). can I bind *xml-stream* to something useful? 13:25:34 -!- rolly1975 [n=rory@111.387.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:26:37 -!- vy` [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:27:01 kreuter: the time of the month is right 13:27:38 antifuchs: indeed. Somehow I only get around to working on my branches around this freeze time lately. :( 13:27:49 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 13:28:14 -!- Noll_Noll [n=28@c-ee70e253.4542024--62697410.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 13:30:07 thankfully, this isn't governed by an immutable biological clock 13:30:21 so you could ask to move that time of the month (-: 13:30:42 uh 13:30:46 I guess. 13:31:35 kreuter: I believe Xof has something to commit too. 13:32:00 oh, good. my noise can mask his signal then. :) 13:32:54 he needs a bit of managerial reassurance to commit it 13:33:20 kami-: see render-to-string or sg like that 13:33:42 I could do the release again. howabout we announce the freeze on the 25th? 13:33:51 bah. this is the wrong forum. 13:34:25 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-219.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:36:13 -!- bob_f [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has left #lisp 13:37:39 -!- deliana [n=deliana@147.210.246.189] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:37:58 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:40:39 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:41:14 pkhuong pasted "Less lockful RW lock" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79013 13:43:50 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has joined #lisp 13:44:32 pkhuong: less compared to what? 13:45:58 mega1: typical implementation. Readers typically acquire and release a mutex when both acquiring and releasing the rw lock. 13:46:00 c|mell [n=cmell@i220-220-216-93.s05.a010.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #lisp 13:47:31 compare to exactly 1 LOCK XADD each when there are only readers. 13:50:16 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:01 pkhuong: looks good, I'll try to poke holes in it when I have some time. 13:52:50 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 13:52:54 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has quit [] 13:53:29 -!- awayekos [n=anekos@pl476.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1: SIGTERM received; exit"] 13:59:13 There is a clos object representing a neural network with values of neurons, weights and some other parameters. To be able to use the "same" network in different situations I'd like to create another object that shares with the original instance some of the slot bindings: typically (but not necessarily) everything except the values of neurons. 13:59:31 Sounds awfully like prototype based inheritance ot me. 13:59:43 oudeis [n=oudeis@80.250.159.240] has joined #lisp 13:59:54 Ideas how to pull this off in clos? 14:00:06 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@novelletto.bio.uniroma2.it] has left #lisp 14:00:10 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@novelletto.bio.uniroma2.it] has joined #lisp 14:00:44 one class per neuron, :allocation :class for the slots you want to share? 14:00:58 didn't you ask about lots of classes recently? (: 14:00:59 Take the shared bindings and give them their own class and object. Refer to the shared binding object from neurons? 14:01:54 yeah, extracting the connection info into separate data seems to make sense 14:02:03 No single, static separation of the slots will do, in some cases weights should be shared in other cases not. 14:02:06 (strike that, it makes sense) 14:02:20 I'd just make a clone-neuron function :p 14:03:23 I can write a copy function for each situation but changes to simple, numeric slot values will not be propagated to clones. 14:04:07 I guess you might have to use explicit boxes/references for weights. 14:04:48 they are in arrays, so there is no worry about that. 14:05:05 This is just a concrete example to obscure the general question. 14:05:15 mega1: to achieve the sharing of side effect, I mean. 14:05:28 yes, I understood 14:06:02 That's a general solution too. Use explicit boxes to have better control over bindings. 14:06:30 -!- antgreen [n=Anthony@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 14:08:30 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:11 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:09:20 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:09:29 you mean putting slot values in an array? (scale :initarg :scale :initform (vector 1d0)) 14:10:10 yes (I guess specialised arrays make sense here) 14:10:19 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 14:11:06 that's rather ugly 14:11:41 You can hide the ugliness in accessors. 14:11:42 scale is a parameter of the whole network (there is only one value) 14:15:14 any chance to pull to prototype based inheritance off? 14:15:20 s/to/the/ 14:15:33 mega1: with custom slot allocation, maybe (: 14:15:33 -!- deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:15:47 When I signal a condition and catch it in a handler, SHARED-INITIALIZE appears to be isn't called on the related condition object. Is that something known? 14:15:58 Not sure, and likely to incur even more hidden indirection (: 14:16:00 deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:16:30 mega1: also, that problem sounds like something you could try to solve with ContextL 14:16:57 I read the ContextL paper today. 14:17:45 vy pasted "Missing SHARED-INITIALIZE Call" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79014 14:18:25 tcr pasted "why does this deftransform not fire?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79015 14:19:09 are you compiling the call? 14:19:31 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:20:09 jsnell: Asked to whom? 14:20:10 I have that as a toplevel form in a file and C-c C-k the buffer 14:20:24 ok, put the call inside a function 14:20:37 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:43 it's probably getting intercepted by the fopcompiler 14:21:16 -!- wlr_ [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:21:30 -!- legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-37-237.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:21:49 smolyn [n=smolyn@24.80.243.117] has joined #lisp 14:21:52 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:22:05 Ok that and I have to pass a non-constant arg 14:22:14 (that is declared to be of type list) 14:22:51 that doesn't sound right :-) 14:23:24 tcr: the non-constant arg shouldn't be an issue, unless the defknown now has FOLDABLE. 14:23:54 Well that's the behaviour I encounter. Try for yourself. 14:25:09 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-221-38.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:19 tcr: WFM (: 14:25:22 Sorry for bugging but doesn't anybody have an idea about http://paste.lisp.org/display/79014 14:26:28 vy: I have no idea what your question is but do you perhaps want that to be an :after method? 14:27:03 Ugh! Thanks. 14:27:24 Also, I don't know if you can count on shared-initialize working with conditions. Though it probably does in most implementations. 14:27:34 pkhuong: Ok, wfm now, too, after restarting. 14:27:42 willb [n=wibenton@144.92.98.83] has joined #lisp 14:28:30 http://www.secretgeek.net/lisp_truth.asp is this tongue-in-chick troll post well known? It's pretty amusing 14:29:07 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:29:37 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a654c2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5447372ef863cead] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 14:30:17 that is a serious freudian slip 14:30:39 Lisp can be fully implemented in lisp in just a handful of lines. I just implemented lisp in lisp, fully, while i was hopping onto a bus and paying for my bus ticket all at the same time. 14:30:45 but this was funny :D 14:30:56 antifuchs: heh, crap, tongue in cheek ;) 14:31:22 awayekos [n=anekos@pl476.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:31:42 the best part is the 'it's paul graham, lisp, paul graham, lisp, all the way down' 14:32:04 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-62-156.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:32:29 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:32:30 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@114.51.185.8] has joined #lisp 14:32:58 Can anybody answer my question? http://paste.lisp.org/display/79016 14:33:19 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 14:33:59 tomoyuki28jp: you are correct as to why it is not printing new. 14:34:23 Depending on what you're actually trying to do, there is probably a way to do it. 14:34:43 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 14:34:46 But you can't use runtime bindings to affect the behavior of already expanded macros. 14:35:09 tomoyuki28jp: Is making it a function instead of a macro an acceptable solution? 14:35:25 gigamonkey: thanks for the info 14:35:37 Or defining the macro this way: (defmacro test () '(print *var*)) 14:35:47 -!- Beket [n=stathis@adsl-255-030.diodos.auth.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:35:56 tomoyuki28jp: or (defmacro test (&optional (var '*var*)) `(print ,var)) ? 14:35:58 gigamonkey: oh yeah, it's the way!! 14:36:08 or (test *var*) instead of (test). 14:36:12 gigamonkey: It neither works with :after modifier. 14:36:25 fe[nl]ix: oh can I do that? thanks for the info. 14:36:34 vy: what is your actual problem? 14:36:43 tomoyuki28jp: but understand the difference of meaning. 14:37:26 gigamonkey: I want to set the `TIME' slot automatically when a `TIMEOUT-CONDITION' is signaled. 14:37:30 With (var *var*) with use the _value_ of a macroexpansion time variable named *var*. With (var '*var*), we take the run-time variable named *var*. 14:38:08 vy: why not just use :initform 14:38:31 HET3 [n=diman@128.131.95.41] has joined #lisp 14:39:03 gigamonkey: I'll need to type ":initform (get-universal-time)" in all around the code. Isn't that quite ugly? 14:39:37 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 14:39:47 matimago: The latter is just like biding the symbol when macro is expanded, and do (symbol-value 'symbol) in run-time, correct? 14:39:51 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:39:59 vy: what? 14:40:03 mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 14:40:25 gigamonkey: Ooops, I meant ":time (get-universal-time)". 14:40:27 In the define-condition definition of the TIME slot include :initform (get-universal-time). How is that "all around the code"? 14:41:09 gigamonkey: But, AFAIK, :initforms are evaluated just once. Hence all `TIMEOUT-CONDITON's will have same `TIME' slot value. 14:41:52 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:41:57 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 14:42:00 mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has joined #lisp 14:42:13 vy: nope. 14:42:21 That's why they're called initforms not initvalues 14:42:42 "This form is evaluated every time it is used to initialize the slot." My bad. 14:43:20 matimago: By the way, thanks a lot for leaving me a memo regarding common lisp implementation if scheme's cut macro. It helps me a lot to understand the macro system of common lisp. It's been a long time, but I haven't gotten a chance to say "thank you". I appreciate it. 14:43:37 s/implementation if/implementation of/ 14:47:04 gigamonkey: how's coders at work book going by the way 14:47:06 tomoyuki28jp: you're welcome! 14:47:34 matimago: :) 14:47:51 tomoyuki28jp: well more exactly, it expands to (print *var*) so it's not exactly (symbol-value '*var*) since you could pass a lexical variable. 14:48:38 gigamonkey: is it near to be published? 14:49:15 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B45E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:50:46 matimago: I didn't know that, thanks for the info! > you could pass a lexical variable 14:50:48 droogie`: I've got 8 of 15 chapters mostly done. 14:50:57 I'm hoping to be done with my part in the next month or so. 14:51:33 sykopomp: can sheeple do shared properties in the sense that setting the property in the child will change the parent? 14:52:00 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:52:59 gigamonkey: It looks like I can pre-order the book on Amazon. 14:53:06 And you should! 14:53:36 gigamonkey: is it fully consist of interviews? 14:53:58 gigamonkey: Heh, did you know that there is a 1980 hardcover version of PCL that is currently unavailable? :-) 14:54:02 droogie`: Yup. Plus a short intro explaining who each person is. 14:54:13 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@novelletto.bio.uniroma2.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 14:54:22 tmh: yeah, we're waiting for the time travelers from the future to show up and go get it for us. 14:55:06 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:56:09 Has anyone here looked at Real World Haskell? 14:56:24 I've got it on my shelf but haven't read it yet 14:56:41 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:56:41 It's rather big 14:56:55 tcr: I'll be interested to hear what you think of it. 14:57:46 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:57:46 gigamonkey: is there a page about coders at work? (want to find what its about) 14:58:10 http://www.codersatwork.com/ 14:58:48 gigamonkey: the full text for Real World Haskell is online, isn't it? just like you did for PCL. 14:59:05 elias` [n=me@cs78208074.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:59:19 gigamonkey: Kay didn't want to be interviewed? (sorry if you get this question every day ;)) 14:59:51 hmm thompson, norvig, armstrong, steele, seems exciting :) 14:59:51 lichtblau: Yeah. I also got a free copy from O'Reilly. 14:59:57 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:00:00 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 15:00:06 Adamant [n=Adamant@130.254.102.214] has joined #lisp 15:00:09 xan: Kay originally agreed and then decided he was too busy. 15:00:17 gigamonkey: okay, so you're looking for reviews from people who know Haskell well? 15:00:26 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:00:36 gigamonkey: oh, that's how you got in contact with knuth a while ago (the literate programming talk, I think it was) 15:00:47 (I liked what I read so far, but I'm not enough of a Haskell expert to say more.) 15:00:59 lichtblau: Actually, the opposite. I'm wondering whether RWH is actually going to help non-Haskellers. 15:01:15 gigamonkey: too bad 15:02:49 gigamonkey: All right, pre-ordered! After the whole Common Lisp Reference fiasco, I'm generally loath to pre-order something. 15:03:13 tmh: well, I'm pretty sure this one is going to come out. 15:03:22 gigamonkey: I'm reading RWH now. it's sorta irritating. 15:03:24 Plus, it's not like they charge you until it ships, right. 15:03:31 -!- kidd [n=user@60.Red-79-150-112.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:03:41 Well, had this book been available back when I encountered Haskell at university, I'd probably have dived into it more enthusiastically. 15:03:46 Also ordered PCL for good measure. I generally reference PG ACL, but need to learn loop and you have a couple good chapters on loop. 15:04:02 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@24.80.243.117] has quit [] 15:04:10 tmh: excellent. I wonder if you're the first person to buy those two books together. 15:04:35 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-7980.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 15:04:41 oh, if they don't charge until it ships I'll pre-order too :) 15:04:50 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 15:04:55 xan: I think that's how it works. 15:04:56 gigamonkey: I can't imagine that I am. There is a value to having 2 views of a subject. 15:05:02 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:05:14 tmh: I meant both of my books in one order. 15:05:18 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:05:35 gigamonkey: Oh, yeah. :-) Do I get an award? 15:05:53 *tmh* pats himself on the back. 15:05:55 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:06:14 morning 15:06:24 Greetings slyrus. 15:07:03 speaking of lisp books, does anybody know where to get 'Anatomy of Lisp' that it's not by paying > 100$ at amazon? 15:07:12 libraries. 15:07:25 pkhuong: You sound like my wife. 15:07:55 I can't get her to understand the value of being able to reach over and grab a book off of the shelf. 15:08:13 pkhuong: yeah, unfortunately those in the city don't seem to fancy that particular book :) 15:08:13 tmh: I'm probably among the worst offenders. "That'll be useful later on." 15:08:24 xan: inter-library loans. 15:08:57 pkhuong: I guess 15:09:10 -!- ASau` [n=user@host215-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["Off!"] 15:09:18 I can also hope Google will get its hands on it and scan it, since it's clearly out of print... 15:09:27 gigamonkey: pre-ordered! 15:09:35 xan: Where's Dover Press when you need them? 15:10:48 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:10:56 tmh: don't know much about Dover Press, what's the relevance? 15:11:57 xan: They specialize in releasing out of print books for ridiculously low prices. 15:12:10 oh, I see 15:12:43 I have several engineering texts from them, but I don't think they cover computer science. 15:13:55 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 15:14:04 there should be a time period after a book has gone out of print, and after that anyone should be free to put it online or make new editions IMHO 15:14:23 there is. it is extremely long. :) 15:14:24 not sure what would be a reasonable time period, but I think the current situation is a bit silly 15:14:50 how long? 15:15:04 I would love to see Dover get a computer science section and start with a release of On Lisp. 15:15:11 hopefully you don't mean the +N years after the author's death ;) 15:17:54 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@114.51.185.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:22:04 -!- cracki [n=cracki@43-029.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 15:24:40 -!- holycow [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:27:11 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:28 white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:28:24 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:28:33 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:29:08 aerique pasted "Iterate bug?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79018 15:29:18 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 15:29:38 or am I being dense? 15:31:20 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 15:31:26 aerique: where is the problem ? 15:32:30 kuwabara: I don't see how I can iterate downwards from 0 15:32:33 downto -10 by 2 15:32:55 aerique: "to" is the arithmetic-up clause 15:33:00 ha, okey.. maybe I should just read the manual first next time :) 15:33:30 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@80.250.159.240] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:36:10 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.196.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:40:29 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-145-68.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:45:40 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:45:45 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:48:37 smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has joined #lisp 15:48:59 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:51:16 xan: it's somewhere around 50~100 years after authors death in USA, I think. If not (+ since-disneys-death 10) years ;-) 15:52:01 I saw a thing the other day from 2003 about how O'Reilly was adopting "The Founders Copyright" for some of their titles. 15:52:02 slyrus: Fare will probably send a scathing email in reply to the bug you reported. 15:52:16 Where they give up the copyright after 14 years. 15:52:22 I wonder if they're still doing that. 15:52:23 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-5f7a1e7b6251c1e9] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:53:54 Well, quite a big percentage of the books they release would get out-of-date after 14 years, so it wouldn't be that bad for them 15:54:42 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 15:55:31 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:55:55 is there a way to lazy evaluate in common lisp? 15:56:08 is it done with some packages? 15:56:18 droogie`: By explicit thunking. Yes, look at CLAZY. 15:56:39 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 15:57:21 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:43 milanj [n=milan@77.46.202.11] has joined #lisp 15:58:02 thanks :) i am just looking at it now, i wondered if some builtin methods provide that 16:00:34 in fact just for curiosity, i don't really need it right now. i am always curious of if cl has it when i think of a feature :) it usually has :) i think that moving castle conveyance is true :D 16:01:30 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@pD9E6D40F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:41 -!- mega1 [n=mega@83.216.46.4] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:03:57 omg, the introduction of clazy is funny though :) (defun si (condicio ergo alternatio) (if condicio ergo alternatio)) >si :D 16:04:32 spanish atoms... you don't see that very often. 16:05:40 that's more likely Italian 16:06:25 tcr: i think so, and in fact seeing it is more surprizing when the rest of the page is english :) 16:06:32 I've always wondered, though, why there isn't more code in languages other than English. I appreciate inertia, but I'm surprised that there is that much inertia. 16:06:59 last year we were given a system written in china by one of our clients to review, and all the atoms were in cantonese. 16:07:03 tmh: computers won't understand you if you don't speak to them in English. 16:07:13 gigamonkey: they will 16:07:21 the thing is, programmers don't 16:07:44 our analysis was impeded. 16:07:59 *p_l* used to be burdened with a logo variant that used polish atoms 16:08:18 computer may, eval won't :) 16:08:30 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-3f6d08c896ae9015] has joined #lisp 16:08:41 droogie`: eval will, if you tell it how (just like it's told how to understand english ;-D) 16:08:52 Fade: I have a feeling we're all going to need to learn cantonese since the chinese seem to be sitting on a large pile of money. Unless, of course, all of that money is inflated to zero. 16:09:31 well, part of our contract indicates that sometime in 2011, they'll stop providing xlators, so the impetus is on us to learn chinese. 16:09:44 I'm an awful student of human languages. :( 16:09:48 tmh: and mandarin, I guess :) 16:10:05 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:10:38 Fade: were the atoms in pinyin or Chinese characters? 16:10:51 depended on the file. 16:10:56 p_l: of course :) in fact i was looking about some info of L Peter Deutsch after i saw it in gigamonkey 's coders at work project, i see that he worked in several italian lisp projects like rome, of course at past, very past :) 16:10:57 p_l: Don't torment me. I'm bothered enough by the prospect of having to learn one of them. 16:11:40 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:11:49 Do the Chinese have a de facto dialect for business? 16:11:51 tmh: http://www.pinyin.info/readings/texts/moser.html 16:11:52 *p_l* is tormented by prospect of returning to learning german & french. Japanese & Mandarin should be rather pleasant ;-) 16:12:14 the chinese have a dialect for ordering pizza and another for ordering flowers. 16:12:16 tmh: not just one, I don't think 16:12:44 (particularly because their traditional business-y cities are in different areas with different dialetcs) 16:12:58 though apparently all written chinese is mandarin, or something 16:13:12 Title of that link I just posted: "Why Chinese Is So Damn Hard" 16:13:13 I have a macro in which I do: ,(when (< 0 size-min) `(:sizeMin size-min)) 16:13:21 tmh: "I've always wondered, though, why there isn't more code in languages other than English" that's why i like weirdos like car cdr etc :D i know that they are abbrevations from english unix terms but still, it seems universal :D 16:13:30 we haven't run into business people who don't speak english, but there are a lot of chinese monoglots in the chinese engineering community, which I found strange. 16:13:37 what do I have to do to 'splice' (:sizeMin size-min) ? 16:13:39 english unix terms? 16:13:50 kami-: change , to ,@ 16:13:57 gigamonkey: thanks. 16:13:58 not that surprising, if it's a big enough community 16:14:00 droogie`: they are assembler mnemonics ;-) 16:14:05 Saying CAR, and CDR are unix terms is rather anachronistic 16:14:05 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:09 Hmm, I only speak English. Also known as being "American". Really need to remedy that. 16:14:09 My brother found a chinese bootleg translation of K&R in a market in nan cheng 16:14:30 gigamonkey: reading the link now. 16:14:32 and one which was historically sort of closed off from western engineering 16:15:12 tmh: also known as being from an English-speaking country :) 16:15:21 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 16:15:22 these guys don't have trouble with assembler, and can read code with english atoms, but they treat all the atoms as arbitrary symbols. 16:15:23 "Contents of the Address part of Register number" yes, my bad :D 16:15:38 HG` [n=wells@91.111.13.16] has joined #lisp 16:15:51 well, written chinese and spoken are two different things... afaik if you are using the same variant of writing, you can communicate well no matter what your actual language is 16:16:16 ah, so it's a bit like the good old days where you were allowed maybe two characters in a variable name, then 16:16:33 C did allow 6 of them. 16:16:35 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 16:16:42 tic_: that's pascal 16:17:01 I think :) 16:17:16 C has a restriction on 6 or 7, too 16:17:22 (or C pre-99) 16:17:44 compliant compilers are allowed truncate at that point and ignore any further chars entirely 16:17:58 rsynnott: wasn't it rather before C89? 16:18:04 probably 7. e.g. sprintf 16:18:11 I don't think c89 fixed it 16:18:14 maybe it did 16:18:39 8 chars would be more likely, IMHO 16:19:07 just like 10 chars in Pascal (I mixed up 36bit and 60bit lookup tables) 16:19:07 3 bits? 16:19:09 -!- willb [n=wibenton@144.92.98.83] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:19:12 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:19:21 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:23 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6FE3A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 16:19:31 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:19:41 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:11 english is not my native language so sometimes i treat them like arbitrary symbols too. and i must say, it is really a good thing just thinking of a term via what it does and how. 16:20:40 8 chars would give you 4word symbols on PDP-11... 16:20:47 of course it makes things a bit harder to learn 16:21:06 Pascal had limitation to 10 chars because that fit into one register on the original machine 16:21:32 (60bit registers) 16:23:06 PDP-10 favored multiplies of 6 IIRC :) 16:24:07 -!- rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-3f6d08c896ae9015] has quit [] 16:24:20 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-fd6b1435b71319d5] has joined #lisp 16:24:22 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:24:25 so are we allowed to use nearly 11 char names in 64bit? not real chars like a b, but maybe some like . , etc. :p 16:24:44 smaller ones :D 16:24:49 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:25:04 anyway sorry for that primitive disgusting joke :D 16:26:34 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 16:26:54 -!- hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.100] has quit ["leaving"] 16:28:23 gigamonkey: Aside from everything else in that article, the thing that worries me the most about chinese is the tonal aspect. 16:28:26 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 16:28:48 Shouldn't say aside, he mentions the tonal component. 16:29:10 It *is* the tonal component that worries me. 16:29:21 tmh: even as some of our guys were learning chinese, they were warned to use the translators even where they thought they knew how to express their meaning, because of the tonality thing. 16:30:30 Fade: Not surprising. If I recall correctly, I read an article that referenced a study on perfect pitch in China. A larger percentage of the population has perfect pitch and they attribute the language as a big factor. 16:30:52 proq` [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 16:32:55 I believe it's one of these languages which is basically impossible to learn to pronounce fluently after childhood 16:33:16 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has quit [] 16:33:28 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:33 apparently hungarian is like that. 16:34:00 My graduate advisor for my master's degree was from Taiwan, had been in the US since the 1960's and still had a relatively thick accent. Seems to cut both ways. 16:34:16 I'm always dubious about those kinds of statements :) 16:34:17 willb [n=wibenton@144.92.79.183] has joined #lisp 16:34:33 But I have read studies showing some genetic component in tone language processing. 16:34:43 then there's that british fellow who learned icelandic in a week. 16:35:08 so who knows. maybe we're all just drain bammaged by our mother tongue by the time we're adults. 16:35:11 *p_l* once heard of a guy who passed JLPT1 after a year of studying (starting from 0) 16:36:04 language is a tool of necessity for the most part. If you don't have the necessity, then learning it becomes an onerous task. 16:36:33 barring those folks who just genuinely love language. my ex is a linguist, and she speaks four or five now. 16:37:19 heh. I have to get fluent in the languages I started learning... that would bring me to five languages 16:38:22 i find mantaining fluency also tricky 16:39:01 so, anyhow, all that said, the chinese lanaguage situation is gonna be a big issue for me pretty sool. :) 16:39:27 Are you going to China? 16:39:38 Zhivago: they will stop providing translators :) 16:39:50 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 16:39:54 s/sool/soon 16:40:00 our is your new chinese? 16:40:08 Zhivago: yeah 16:40:34 In how long? 16:40:57 july for four weeks, then two months in the fall. 16:41:31 Hmm. I spent a few months a couple of years ago training my brain to hear tones. 16:41:54 how'd that work out? 16:41:57 It helped a lot. 16:42:00 mega1 [n=mega@53d83190.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 16:42:06 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B45E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:13 Hate to get back to lisp, but I have a :BEFORE method specialized on ARRAY. I also have a version of the method specialized on VECTOR. The :BEFORE method for ARRAY, obviously, gets thrown into the method combination for VECTOR. I don't want it to, so I could write a :BEFORE method for VECTOR, but it would be empty, is there another way? 16:42:15 how did you train? 16:42:22 *p_l* loves companies claiming "local language not required" then providing job description in said language... 16:43:10 fade: Found a native speaker and some chinese children's books with characters and pinyin together. 16:44:00 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:44:05 Zhivago: I like that approach, starting with a children's book. 16:44:06 fade: Practiced reading the pinyin aloud with feedback, also repeating what the other person said, and later drawing the tone in the air for what they said. 16:44:17 -!- stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-158-174.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:44:21 Zhivago: ahh 16:44:32 fade: I found that I could reproduce the tone they spoke before I could report what it was. 16:44:49 interesting. are you a musician? 16:44:51 fade: It took a couple of months of a couple of hours a week. 16:44:56 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-158-174.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 16:44:57 fade: No. 16:45:02 tmh: hmm. 16:45:03 minion: tell me about logs 16:45:03 stassats: please see logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 16:45:07 *nod* 16:45:17 tmh: Have you consider using an :around method? 16:45:49 fade: Well, I do play an instrument, but not competently. 16:46:46 i've actually been doing a perfect pitch course as a precursor to china. I guess I'll figure it out. 16:46:53 Zhivago: I've not, all the before method is doing is validating input. It is also specialized on another class. The key is that subclasses need to validate the input as well. So, I'll need to figure out how to do that correctly with an around method. 16:46:59 I don't think that pitch is actually that important. 16:47:43 What they seem to be recognising is the shape of the curve of the pitch. 16:47:57 interesting 16:48:13 -!- stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-158-174.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 16:48:27 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:49:12 ejs [n=eugen@102-77-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:15 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-96-146.w86-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:49:18 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:05 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:50:09 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:13 tmh: Well, your array method could test for vectors ... :) 16:50:34 This is one of the big drawbacks of specializing on class rather than type. 16:50:47 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:51:05 But, I also don't see why you need a :before method for input validation. 16:51:28 kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:55 "a perfect pitch course"? I'm... skeptical 16:51:55 yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@95.37.143.128] has joined #lisp 16:52:51 -!- proq` [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:52:53 tmh: It might be that your design is trying to be too clever by half and it might be better of being broken into simpler pieces? 16:53:08 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-101-216.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:53:45 I don't see why you shouldn't be able to train pitch recognition. 16:53:47 Zhivago: I don't *need* it, but it is convenient. The method is specialized on 2 arguments. One is always an array, the other is the class or subclass. The validation covers the shape of the array, so when I write subclasses, I don't have to repeat the validation and can add before methods specialized on the subclasses that contain any further validation. 16:54:38 Ok, I'm in my DEFTRANSFORM for SB-INT:PROPER-LIST-OF-LENGTH and I know that the argument list does not have as many elements. What should I do know, expand to a (WARN ...) form? 16:54:43 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:54:53 It doesn't seem that clever. Maybe too lazy is a better word. 16:55:01 Xof: David Lucas Burge was recommended to my by my classical guitar teacher, and it is good, but he concentrates on a colour metaphor that is somewhat cryptic to me; i'm profoundly colour blind. 16:55:03 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:55:05 lol 16:55:19 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:55:46 Zhivago: because the neural structures associated with pitch recognition are observed to differ noticeably between absolute pitch perceivers and others, and those structures are largely fixed beyond the age of about 5 16:57:04 -!- swilde [n=wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has left #lisp 16:57:34 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:58:37 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:58:39 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@nomad50159.netlogon.lu.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:58:43 You don't need absolute pitch perception to be able to improve pitch recognition -- I agree that the course name is an exercise in hyperbole. 16:59:06 it has definitely helped with pitch discrimination. 16:59:09 fwiw. 17:00:02 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@i220-220-216-93.s05.a010.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:00:30 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:18 tcr: you can transform to an error node, or execute a style warning and abort-ir1-transform 17:01:32 if i need to bind some variables with let that must not be evaluated again and again in recursion, should i split the function into two? i mean one for binding some variables, one for recursion. or is there a better way of doing that? 17:02:27 pkhuong: Good to know. (My question was ill-conceived.) Can you help me understand the third paragraph of the comment describing DEFTRANSFORM, please? 17:03:24 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host87.190-137-248.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:03:29 transforms are ``supposed'' to return a lambda form that will be spliced in instead of the function name 17:03:33 Tordek [n=tordek@host87.190-137-248.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:03:34 droogie: Perhaps labels would be appropriate? 17:03:36 Ah ok 17:04:35 however, there's a convenience wrapper, so you can instead return (values body declaration-list) which will build a lambda for you (when body isn't a lambda form). 17:05:09 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 17:05:12 Right 17:05:22 -!- dwave_ [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:08:16 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-26-184.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:08:16 Zhivago: i see, i didn't fully understand its usage from clhs but it looks like what i need :) thanks :) 17:09:38 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 17:10:13 gko106 [n=gko@116.59.131.241] has joined #lisp 17:10:32 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 17:12:15 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.101.94] has quit ["this is not a quit message"] 17:12:25 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B45E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["I am Locutus of Borg! You will assist us!"] 17:13:21 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:05 -!- gko106 [n=gko@116.59.131.241] has quit [Client Quit] 17:14:49 -!- ejs [n=eugen@102-77-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:15:29 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:17:09 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-145-68.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:18:41 -!- HET3 is now known as HET2 17:19:18 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 17:19:24 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-221-38.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:41 -!- kiuma_ [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:21:20 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B45E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:23 VECTOR,ARRAY,SEQUENCE,T give me grief. 17:22:31 s/give/gives/ 17:22:41 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:22:55 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 17:25:03 Life would be much easier if it were VECTOR,SEQUENCE,T with LIST,SEQUENCE,T and ARRAY,T 17:25:09 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:26:09 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:26:23 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 17:26:49 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:29:41 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:30:16 Even if I defined an empty :BEFORE method on VECTOR, it is still going to combine with the :BEFORE method on ARRAY. So, this is going in my before method for ARRAY -> (when (vectorp data) return) ; Isn't there a better way? 17:31:33 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B45E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["I am Locutus of Borg! You will assist us!"] 17:34:00 Rather, (return-from ...) 17:34:55 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:36:27 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B45E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:28 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 17:37:37 -!- yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@95.37.143.128] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:39:52 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 17:40:07 tmh: what you are saying is that you wish vectors were not arrays? they are, so you have to structure your dispatch accordingly. 17:40:50 tmh: in your :before on ARRAY, you should probably call another method rather than inline the code, and that other method is specialized on ARRAY or VECTOR 17:40:56 -!- CrazyEddy [n=lenticel@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:41:25 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.196.186] has joined #lisp 17:41:52 tmh: make sense? 17:42:10 drewc: That is exactly what I'm saying. I wish that they weren't. Structuring the dispatch accordingly is easy for the primary methods, not so much for the :BEFORE methods. That is a good idea for the :BEFORE method, though. I don't have any validation for VECTOR data, but may in the future. 17:42:49 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-fce869f721230228] has joined #lisp 17:43:09 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:43:47 tmh: you could also consider a custom method combination, but i find that usually the best way to do something in CLOS almost always involves an auxiliary generic function. 17:45:21 drewc: I thought about custom method combination, but decided to try the crude/simply solution for now, use this library for a while and get a feel for the rough edges, then polish with advanced techniques. 17:46:12 tmh: FWIW, i think a custom method combination is almost always a bad idea, save for when it's not :) 17:46:28 ejs [n=eugen@37-226-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:58 CrazyEddy [n=syncreti@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 17:46:59 drewc: That's compatible with my philosophy of rely on the defaults until they aren't working. 17:47:18 -!- willb [n=wibenton@144.92.79.183] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:58 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:49:22 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 17:51:12 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.132.189.132] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:53:37 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 17:55:10 -!- HG` [n=wells@91.111.13.16] has quit [Client Quit] 17:55:26 HG` [n=wells@91.111.13.16] has joined #lisp 17:56:43 -!- tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has left #lisp 17:57:00 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:57:28 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 17:58:20 droogie`` [n=user@88.238.41.128] has joined #lisp 18:01:50 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:03:40 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 18:06:50 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@134.184.43.85] has quit [] 18:11:08 mega1: that's what it does, yes. 18:11:30 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:11:43 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 18:13:17 -!- HET2 [n=diman@128.131.95.41] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:14:55 The value (1 2) is not of type (CONS T (CONS T NULL)). 18:15:00 winnage! 18:15:10 -!- droogie` [n=user@88.238.222.4] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:16:23 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:16:33 -!- ejs [n=eugen@37-226-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:17:57 what is parallel programming? 18:18:38 you program and eat at the same time 18:19:07 you program more than one thing at the same time? :P 18:19:16 a buzzword 18:20:35 droogie``: you use psetf instead of setf. (just kidding) 18:20:55 pjb: i can see that :) 18:20:59 droogie``: in CL, since left-to-right evaluation is specified, there's no parallel programming. 18:21:12 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-145-68.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:21:18 However, with extensions, you can attain the parallel programming paradigm. 18:21:47 You can do it with threads, or using the vectorial co-processor (SSE2, Altivec, etc). 18:21:48 pjb: (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'eat-while-you-code)? 18:21:53 i was just looking at norvigs papers, i saw SISAL at teach yourself programming in ten years 18:22:13 i saw that term in its wikipedia description 18:22:27 sykopomp: 'code-n-eat 18:22:50 'neat-code ? 18:22:53 droogie``: it's when your processor is able to do several things at once. 18:23:00 eg. with multicore processors. 18:23:10 sid__ [n=chatzill@ip68-3-103-196.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:27 pjb: that's simply few processors, many things at once would be EPIC (pun intended) 18:24:13 Well, yes, the more processors you have, the more different the paradigm is. 18:24:13 pjb: i get it, thanks :) but still, psetf was a simpler explanation :D 18:24:23 droogie``: read about the "Connection Machine". 18:24:26 -!- tombom [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 18:25:30 droogie``: there was also a "Parallel Lisp" once upon a time, and I believe Sciener Common Lisp as extensions for parallel programming. 18:26:12 GCL has MPI or PVM in it's standard library, I think 18:26:43 and map/reduce based on fork() 18:26:51 I have a formula (car (cdr variable)) which always O/P an Atom,say X... I want it to convert it to a Symbol type...Like if the O/P is X it should be converted to 'X...But on doing '(car (cdr variable)) it gives mean error that, The value (CAR (CDR VARIABLE)) is not of type SYMBOL. I am sure variable is always an Atom of the list.... 18:27:04 what? almost 10 minutes and no Clojure trolls? 18:27:11 this channel has improved quite a bit :) 18:27:23 ROTFL 18:27:41 You people should be learning Clojure instead of wasting your time with this thirty year old crap 18:27:47 there we go 18:27:50 sid__: I don't understand "O/P an Atom, say X" 18:27:50 and suddenly... CLABANGO! 18:27:56 Maybe common lisp should be garbage collected. Nyuk nyuk nyuk 18:28:19 sykopomp: setting the mood is important 18:28:46 After all, where would lisp be without the actively hostile participation of its adherents? 18:28:46 dlowe: ROTFL 18:28:51 pjb: i mean the O/p is just a simple literal... 18:29:08 What does "O/p" mean? 18:29:45 dlowe: my guess is we'd be in Java land where flaws are considered features, and people delude themselves into thinking the language is perfect (thus slowing down improvement) 18:29:49 :P 18:30:30 sykopomp: oh, you mean Java land where pretty much everyone has a runtime environment and there are thousands of high quality libraries due to sheer numbers 18:30:56 cipher [n=cipher@pool-173-48-136-239.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:08 i was in c-land yesterday tho, thinking nil and 0 are the same things :) 18:31:15 dlowe: Horde + "throw money at it" 18:31:30 So I have an LVAR, and I want my DEFTRANSFORM to expand to an invocation of FOO with the thing the LVAR represents as argument; I don't think it's as easy as `(FOO ,LVAR)? 18:31:33 dlowe: your ideas are intriguing to me and I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter 18:32:06 Like in (CAR (CDR VARIABLE)) VARIABLE is always of the type ((? X)) 18:32:20 xan: I'll invite you and jwz to view my newsletter when there is one 18:32:28 sid__: it seems you are not speaking Common Lisp. What language are you using? 18:32:29 So O/Pis always X 18:32:57 I am new to LISP... So the lingo may be off... 18:33:05 dlowe: appreciated sir 18:33:14 sid__: Common Lisp? 18:33:22 It is common lisp 18:33:23 (let ((variable '(1 2 3 4))) (car (cdr variable))) --> 2 ; in common lisp. 18:33:36 Exactly... 18:33:40 Wich reads as the above form _evaluates to_ 2. 18:33:47 Hmm... 18:34:06 what does O/P stand for? 18:34:15 Evaluates to... 18:34:31 Now, (type-of '2) --> (INTEGER 0 16777215) and (type-of 'thing) --> SYMBOL 18:34:50 how do you get from evaluates to to O/P? 18:34:57 ((? X)) is not a valid type expression in CL. 18:35:10 (car (cdr '(? X))) 18:35:22 This is what is actually happening in the program... 18:35:23 willb [n=wibenton@144.92.79.183] has joined #lisp 18:35:32 so what do you want it to do? 18:35:37 ejs [n=eugen@37-226-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:38 so that evals to X 18:35:43 Good. Yes. 18:36:01 And X is a symbol. (type-of 'X) --> SYMBOL 18:37:26 hmm... is there any documentation lying around for Symbolics' lisp machine systems? 18:37:33 I mean actual opcodes? 18:37:55 p_l: Yes, there's a lot. Even emulators. 18:38:03 May be I should explain exactly what I want to do: http://pastebin.com/m396f559a 18:38:15 pjb: nice. I wonder if someone tried to reimplement one of them in FPGA :D 18:38:36 you'd need a big FPGA, and a LOT of free time 18:38:52 AFAIK, no. IIRC, Frank Buzz did some Lisp FGPA stuff, but not for the Lisp Machine per se. 18:39:16 rsynnott: What about few FPGAs? 18:39:20 I can't imagine the lisp machine would actually require that large an FPGA by today's standards, considering how old it is 18:39:33 -!- HG` [n=wells@91.111.13.16] has quit [Client Quit] 18:39:36 See the O/p of that program replaces the occurance of the symbol X in the expression '((loves (? x)) if (mother-of (? x))) 18:39:41 foom: to implement it correctly you'd need a few specific chips outside of cpu, afaik 18:40:07 sid__: care to explain where you get letters O and P? 18:40:09 afaik GC had hw acceleration 18:41:02 p_l: have a look at: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/ 18:41:10 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-121-192.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:11 O/P means the Output or the expression evals to... 18:41:15 you'd probably want to avoid more than one fpga where possible 18:41:36 pjb: http://pastebin.com/m396f559a 18:41:37 same problem as oldfashioned multi-chip processors; latency difficulties 18:41:38 sid__: we say "The result of the expression is ..." or "The expression evaluates to ..." 18:41:44 Hmm 18:42:03 but yep, a modern high-end fpga such as postgrads would have access to would probably do it 18:42:04 Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp 18:42:04 sid__: Yes, subst substututes. So, what's the question? 18:42:25 sykopomp: Can I add your repo to the lisp of projects using lb-sdl? 18:42:26 sykopomp: I thought that the value of the parent's slot doesn't change when setting a property of the child. 18:43:19 tcr: constant-lvar-p and lvar-value? What do you mena by `represent'? 18:43:46 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-28-175.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:47 *mean. 18:44:28 Now I want the expression in http://pastebin.com/m396f559a to get X from evaluation of (car (cdr '(? X)))... 18:44:41 p_l: http://books.google.de/books?id=AVWsntCD88gC&pg=PA135&lpg=PA135&dq=Lightweight+Processes+for+Real-Time+Symbolic+Processing&source=bl&ots=U0SJlARJ6L&sig=aPDF6I_-VQ8y6yHxevu58pSpfuw#PPA135,M1 18:44:58 Balooga: the yashmup repo? sure. 18:44:59 p_l: That's a more recent attempt at a lisp machine. 18:45:17 rsynnott: well, my personal pet project will certainly occupy more than one chip, but that's because I might need more than CPU :D 18:45:19 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-30.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:46:01 sid__: what do you want to evaluate? The expression you pasted, or (car (cdr '(? x))) ? 18:46:17 Basically doing this : http://pastebin.com/m1a71e5d8 18:46:33 -!- ejs [n=eugen@37-226-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:46:45 Gives an error 18:47:05 sid__: of course it does... have you read a book on lisp yet? 18:47:05 tcr: thanks 18:47:16 Not many... 18:47:28 minion: tell sid__ about that-dead-sexy-book 18:47:29 sid__: please look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 18:47:29 *p_l* wants to build a general purpose RISC machine 18:47:39 mega1: it doesn't, no. 18:47:50 pkhuong: (proper-list-of-length list 1 max), this should expand to `(and ,(>=-mumble (lvar-type list) 1) (list-length<= list max)) 18:47:52 I am reading the book but The learning curve is very steep i have been on it for about 24 hours now... 18:47:52 minion: tell sid__ about touretzky 18:47:52 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``touretzky''. 18:48:15 pkhuong: LIST and LENGTH are arbitrary things 18:48:18 minion: tell sid__ about gentle 18:48:19 sid__: please see gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 18:48:26 pjb pasted "substitutions" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79025 18:48:40 sid__: have a look at this paste ^ 18:49:10 sid__: (notice we like better http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp here, it sends a message in here automatically). 18:49:40 tcr: you can simply use the same symbols in the expression as you have in the deftransform's lambda list; the expression will be spliced in the right lambda. 18:50:05 sykopomp: that's what I'm looking for: copying some slots, "acquiring" others from the parent. 18:50:23 sid__: your questions are extremely basic, and would be answered in the first few pages of any given common lisp text. I suggest you go through your text again, this time playing with things at the REPL as you learn them. 18:50:26 mega1: if you want to enforce actual copying (so that parent changes don't affect children), use :cloneform 18:50:42 or the :shallow-copy or :deep-copy options for the clone/defsheep macro 18:50:55 Hmm... 18:50:57 pkhuong: Really? Like: (deftransform proper-list-of-length ((list min max) ...) ... `(and ,(frob) (list-length<= LIST MAX))) ? 18:51:00 -!- CrazyEddy [n=syncreti@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:51:11 sykopomp: thanks, I'll have to read it more carefully. 18:51:15 tcr: right. That'll be wrapped in (lambda (list min max) ...) 18:51:32 Hrm, ok! 18:51:36 don't worry about it. I haven't had the time to write documentation for it yet, and I'm still changing things here and there :) 18:52:33 Ahh liftoff! 18:52:54 Thanks you guys... Am reading on the book...Its nothing like Python... Much tougher... 18:54:15 -!- sid__ [n=chatzill@ip68-3-103-196.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:54:22 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:14 CrazyEddy [n=scoundre@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 18:56:08 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:56:57 tcr: aroundp 18:57:02 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-201-76.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:57:17 kreuter: sure 18:57:20 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-121-192.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:57:40 Weren't you working on the undefined functions style-warnings recently? 18:57:41 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-121-192.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:54 not in several months. 18:58:50 so, I've got a branch here that changes the reader from using several special variables for the input buffer to a structure, accessed through a single *read-buffer* special. I think you're the last person to work on SBCL's reader. when you were doing so, did you happen to look at this issue? 18:59:14 Ah, well, I'd like if SBCL would complain for undefined functions in FTYPE declamations at the end of a compilation unit, too. I'm regularly bitten by typos in ftypes. 18:59:54 hrm 18:59:54 -!- manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:00:17 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:01:15 -!- droogie`` [n=user@88.238.41.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:02:00 kreuter: Yeah, such a change seems reasonable (although there are worse places than reader.lisp wrt. to special variable misuse.) It'll probably result in conflicts with my branch. 19:02:20 kreuter pasted "Make read-buffer a structure" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79026 19:03:12 I guess my only concern is whether it would slow things down someplace. 19:03:24 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:58 I also have a branch that changes all the read macros so that they'll work outside of a call to READ. is that also likely to conflict with your work? 19:06:09 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 19:07:57 HG` [n=wells@91.111.13.16] has joined #lisp 19:08:51 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-101-216.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:08:53 No, I don't think so. The read-buffer patch will quite severely though 19:09:20 as I reorganized READ-TOKEN 19:09:26 ah 19:09:41 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:09:50 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-101-216.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:09:53 I fixed that FIXME in it 19:10:48 heh. I've given up believing in the micro-optimization FIXMEs around CMU/SBCL sources. 19:10:52 :) 19:11:21 IIRC, the reason I did the structifying was because I wanted to simplify CHECK-FOR-RECURSIVE-READ. 19:11:43 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:13:05 kreuter: http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/tcr.git?a=blob;f=src/code/reader.lisp;h=0fd4fa2642e503e60977923a9e1af19d8a44eb73;hb=refs/heads/bug-310062 19:13:12 This is how READ-TOKEN looks like 19:13:46 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 19:15:17 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:15:42 hrm. 19:16:10 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-149-117-84.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:31 I needed to refactor that to get consistent behaviour between ':(1+1) and '#:(+ 1 1) 19:17:46 s/(1+1)/(+ 1 1)/ 19:18:07 I can't recall what those should read to. 19:18:51 It can be argued either way. It should at least be consistent however. 19:18:57 vy` [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 19:19:06 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:19:19 I also wanted to export a PARSE-TOKEN function for users. 19:19:43 yeah, that'd be good. 19:21:06 wraith0x2b [n=wraith@89.136.174.25] has joined #lisp 19:21:45 anyone got a link to a downloadable "Practical Common Lisp" (PDF) ?. I lost my documents during a reinstall and can't find it anymore 19:22:13 minion: tell wraith0x2b about pcl 19:22:14 wraith0x2b: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 19:22:30 the pdf should be there... 19:23:14 it's not..only html :( 19:23:24 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-117-181.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:23:53 -!- Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has quit ["Balooga has no reason"] 19:23:56 wraith0x2b: download the pages and convert it to a pdf (there are html to pdf converters, I think) 19:24:18 I could get the html torrent but I am sure there's a pdf somewhere..I mean..I had it :( 19:25:11 I think Apress stopped that deal 19:26:19 psheldr [n=Miranda@217.13.173.57] has joined #lisp 19:27:07 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:27:35 why would you prefer a PDF over HTML for computer-based reference? 19:30:40 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-121-192.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:31:55 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:37:17 I'd prefer TeX over HTML 19:38:33 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:40:02 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:40:34 -!- wraith0x2b [n=wraith@89.136.174.25] has left #lisp 19:41:34 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 19:41:51 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:44:57 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.196.186] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:45:39 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:47:27 antgreen1 [n=green@nat/redhat/x-d7ce5b6faed6f3a8] has joined #lisp 19:50:21 -!- fiveop_ [n=fiveop@pD9E6D40F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 19:52:34 EmanSaad [n=chatzill@41.238.1.2] has joined #lisp 19:52:55 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 19:54:14 jao [n=jao@104.Red-83-33-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:49 -!- EmanSaad [n=chatzill@41.238.1.2] has left #lisp 19:57:25 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:58:39 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-15-224.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:57 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-43-179.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:05:19 jao` [n=jao@103.Red-83-39-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:19 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has quit [Client Quit] 20:08:05 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:49 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 20:11:31 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 20:12:24 telebyte__ [n=t@84-72-89-156.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:13:01 -!- jao [n=jao@104.Red-83-33-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:21:20 Davidbrcz_ [n=david@ANantes-151-1-79-67.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:22:16 drafael [n=tapio@130.216.52.115] has joined #lisp 20:22:59 what's the latest sbcl version? 20:23:12 look at the topic 20:23:45 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:23:45 ahh, but its website says 1.0.25 20:23:47 hmm 20:24:09 minion: yason? 20:24:10 yason: YASON is a Common Lisp library for encoding and decoding data in the JSON interchange format. http://www.cliki.net/yason 20:24:12 so it does 20:25:15 did they forget to update or 1.0.25 is preferred because it is stabler 20:25:19 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:25:40 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 20:25:57 not the latter 20:26:33 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-247-134.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 20:27:20 *stassats* uses sbcl from cvs and doesn't bother about web-site 20:27:33 -!- jao` [n=jao@103.Red-83-39-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:28:26 leo2007: I just use whatever version of SBCL is packaged for my OS unless there is a problem. 20:28:40 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0B2F.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:29:29 I compile from source one for macosx, it is 1.0.25. I hope this version is not too buggy. 20:29:55 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-11-174.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:55 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-96-146.w86-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:33:20 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:40:05 good night 20:40:10 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:40:14 leo2007: Since version 1.0, there's no more any bugs in sbcl. 20:40:53 *tmh* raises his eyebrows 20:41:08 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.203.120] has joined #lisp 20:41:45 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:42:24 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:39 telebyte___ [n=t@gprs25.swisscom-mobile.ch] has joined #lisp 20:44:36 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-15-224.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:44:45 pjb: really? 20:46:04 leo2007: nothing major you're likely to hit in a while. 20:47:49 -!- telebyte___ [n=t@gprs25.swisscom-mobile.ch] has quit ["Rooms  iPhone IRC Client  http://rooms.derflash.de"] 20:48:05 -!- telebyte__ [n=t@84-72-89-156.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:49:13 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 20:49:24 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-7980.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:49:45 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@89-139-107-164.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 20:50:20 leo2007: perhaps you'll be interested in this program: http://tinyurl.com/6og2gn 20:50:29 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:57 (btw, it's related to #lisp, scroll down) 20:51:54 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:51:54 I am ready to compile a new sbcl. Which is the latest release by the way? 20:52:40 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:52:44 didn't you already ask that question? 20:53:28 oudeis__ [n=oudeis@89-138-15-197.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 20:53:30 1.0.27 thanks 20:54:47 stassats: But it was a few minutes ago, there could have been a release in the interim. :~) 20:55:12 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-247-134.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:55:31 oh, i didn't think about it 20:56:00 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:56:12 kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:55 josemanuel [n=josemanu@58.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:06:33 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:06:50 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:07:17 -!- drafael [n=tapio@130.216.52.115] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:07:39 -!- mindstab [n=dan@janus.mindstab.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:07:44 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:10 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@89-139-107-164.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:09:07 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:10:31 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 21:13:18 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 21:14:39 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 21:16:37 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:03 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 21:17:21 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:22:00 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-139.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:24:05 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:24 -!- oudeis__ [n=oudeis@89-138-15-197.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:27:23 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:30:53 drafael [n=tapio@130.216.93.180] has joined #lisp 21:30:53 -!- drafael [n=tapio@130.216.93.180] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:32:41 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [""Nichts mehr.""] 21:34:01 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:28 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:34:54 jao [n=jao@109.Red-83-44-208.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:39 Jacob_H_ [n=jacob@92.4.108.14] has joined #lisp 21:36:31 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 21:37:03 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:37:25 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:36 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@58.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 21:39:45 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 21:41:44 -!- gandhijee [i=akp@host-66-202-34-165.spr.choiceone.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:42:49 gandhijee [i=akp@host-66-202-34-165.spr.choiceone.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:20 -!- mega1 [n=mega@53d83190.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:50:49 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.203.120] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:50:57 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:51:17 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:19 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:51:20 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:53:31 -!- jao [n=jao@109.Red-83-44-208.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 21:58:25 hi Fare 21:58:42 hi Fare! (: 22:00:17 hi 22:01:11 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-187.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:56 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:02:56 gio123 [n=gio123@host-193-186-177-164.heimbau.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 22:03:17 is here somebody who knows functional logic programing? 22:03:46 -!- Jacob_H_ [n=jacob@92.4.108.14] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:04:44 gio123: from the chatter on this channel some days, it seems most people are more familiar with dysfunctional logic (-: 22:05:13 dysfunctional logic? 22:05:17 what is that? 22:05:25 it's the kind that doesn't work (-: 22:05:33 :) 22:05:40 gio123, what's functional logic programming? 22:05:43 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has left #lisp 22:05:58 I now functional programming, logic programming... 22:06:05 do you mean things like lambda-prolog? 22:06:08 Fare: extension functional programming with logic programming 22:06:18 or Mercury ? 22:06:21 or Screamer ? 22:06:31 Fare: lambda prolog is higher order LP 22:06:52 or non-deterministic scheme? 22:06:56 or Oz ? 22:10:30 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 22:11:23 Hmmm. Does the sbcl implementation of (step _form_) have any limitations? it seems to quit stepping when execution goes to a different module. 22:11:38 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:13:28 Ah. You apparently need to put the (declaim ... (debug 3)) in each module that you want single stepping to work. 22:14:08 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-189.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 22:16:17 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCBBA2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:59 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:18:45 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@c-68-84-2-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:56 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:21:12 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy 22:24:10 chessguy_ [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:24 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 22:26:40 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:28:12 -!- nekobaka [n=baka@c-76-29-163-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:30:03 -!- pjb [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:09 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:36:12 -!- chessguy_ [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:36:15 chessguy_ [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:39 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@c-68-84-2-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:56 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@c-68-84-2-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:43:23 -!- Davidbrcz_ [n=david@ANantes-151-1-79-67.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:44:34 wrice [n=chatzill@03-157.200.popsite.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:45 after upgrade to 1.0.27, how to recompile some packages? I have cl-ppcre installed under sbcl 1.0.25. 22:45:05 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:45:22 try loading them 22:45:30 recursively remove .fasl files if they don't load 22:45:35 then reload 22:46:47 -!- willb [n=wibenton@144.92.79.183] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:46:49 in that case I'll leave it as it is until i need to use it ;) 22:48:28 chessguy [n=chessguy@c-68-84-2-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:26 -!- antgreen1 [n=green@nat/redhat/x-d7ce5b6faed6f3a8] has left #lisp 22:51:40 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:52:09 -!- wrice [n=chatzill@03-157.200.popsite.net] has left #lisp 22:53:14 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 22:53:36 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-30.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:54:32 -!- chessguy_ [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:55:26 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:55:38 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:58:17 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:48 leo2007: there's an easier way. 23:00:10 leo2007: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Automatic-Recompilation-of-Stale-Fasls.html 23:00:33 leo2007: this will automatically recompile FASL files that are in an incompatible format. 23:01:25 you can put it in your ~/.sbclrc and forget that FASL incompatibility exists (unless you happen to delete source files, which nobody sane does anyway) (-: 23:03:06 antifuchs: are the boinkor stats down until the new sexy boikor comes online? 23:03:25 tsuru: I'm afraid so (: 23:03:29 er by down I mean, no new statistics reports 23:03:31 ah okay 23:03:35 should be only a few more days 23:03:41 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@c-68-84-2-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:03:55 I need to get the newest stats for all impls, then get the atom feed up and running again 23:04:49 kinnetica [n=kinnetic@208-58-64-106.c3-0.129-ubr4.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:04:55 but then - higher reliability, and hopefully greater accuracy about what has changed truly significantly (: 23:05:05 it's looking nice so far, I miss the legend a little bit. I know a quick mouseover fixes that but... just my 2 cents 23:05:34 yeah, I miss the legend, too 23:05:50 my plan is to make the floaty implementation selector on the right into a legend of sorts 23:06:20 (to save space in the graphs themselves 23:07:46 nice, looking forward to it! 23:08:33 rolly1975 [n=rory@199.389.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:10:19 ooh I just noticed there is alpha on the side bar... that always used to annoy me when I couldn't see the graph on the 1024x768 at work 23:10:27 s/annoy/annoye 23:10:31 arg. fingers 23:10:59 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-30.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:14:44 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:49 -!- white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:19:51 white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:20:58 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E875.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:24:14 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-069-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:26:49 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 23:27:57 -!- gio123 [n=gio123@host-193-186-177-164.heimbau.uni-linz.ac.at] has quit [] 23:30:20 droogie [n=user@88.238.196.46] has joined #lisp 23:32:11 while trying to require a package in sbcl (on win) i get that gencg.c file error. i think its garbage collector but i couldn't find any info about the problem and i end up with that in several packages 23:32:40 anyone has an idea? 23:34:00 kinnetica_ [n=kinnetic@208-58-64-106.c3-0.129-ubr4.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:35:19 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:38:08 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 23:38:24 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-187.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:45 tsuru: it isn't really alpha /-: 23:39:09 tsuru: I haven't figured out how to do a sane right-bound float sidebar yet... so it overlaps and is ugly 23:39:22 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [] 23:39:36 should look OK on a full-screen 1024x768 browser, though. could you send me a screen shot of how it looks on your work setup? 23:40:30 i think i won't have chance to solve this gencg.c thing 23:40:35 (whenever you have the time - maybe I can ask my css wizard friends in the next couple of days about how to make this look ok (-:) 23:42:27 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:45:46 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 23:49:43 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B45E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:51:17 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:51:52 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 23:53:16 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:27 apo_ [n=apo@pD9E7F10E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:01 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [] 23:54:51 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:55:53 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:56:36 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.202.11] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:58:47 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has quit ["Leaving"]