00:00:15 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:00:46 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:01:06 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:04:44 -!- apo_ [n=apo@pD9E7F07F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 00:05:23 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:06:04 *hefner* has never seen a pretty opengl gui, excepting the rather simple menus in some games 00:07:31 <_3b> hefner: do you still have use for better svg->vecto? 00:07:56 I didn't have any use for it to start with, that was just for fun 00:08:06 but sure, for the sake of argument, I'm collecting improvements 00:08:33 <_3b> ok, just wondering if it would be worth fighting with vecto if it doesn't translate well or not 00:08:59 you said you were having trouble with clipping, translating vecto to flash? 00:09:06 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:09:16 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 00:09:32 <_3b> yeah, think i figured out how to do that, it will just be inefficient if you use it badly 00:10:10 <_3b> flash lets you specify a path to clip the next N layers, while vecto lets you swap out clipping paths at will (by copying the gfx state) 00:11:07 <_3b> so i just have to potentially swap the clipping layers on and off if someone actually uses that ability 00:12:28 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:50 sounds like you could save yourself some trouble shortcutting around vecto in that case. I wasn't entirely happy with vecto myself in this respect (there was something it couldn't do, maybe nesting clipping masks, or clipping masks against clipping masks, where it seemed maybe easier if I drew them as shapes and did the compositing myself) 00:13:21 or maybe my complaint was just that they didn't nest as I expected to start with 00:13:41 <_3b> yeah, it looked a bit odd to use them 00:14:43 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 00:16:52 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:20:54 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@217.230.250.231] has quit ["humhum"] 00:21:14 -!- rolly1975 [n=rory@174.389.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au] has quit ["The computer fell asleep"] 00:25:53 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:26:05 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:31:50 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:18 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:30 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 00:34:23 ajsquared [n=ajsquare@ajsquaredlaptop.STUDENT.CWRU.Edu] has joined #lisp 00:35:41 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:37:01 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:39:25 -!- ajsquared [n=ajsquare@ajsquaredlaptop.STUDENT.CWRU.Edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:40:34 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:40:59 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 00:43:34 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:08 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:46:35 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:47:55 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:48:00 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:57 drafael [n=tapio@130.216.89.187] has joined #lisp 00:56:57 -!- ignotus [n=ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 00:57:58 is there a good package for doing fft? 00:58:24 I am porting a c++ program (small about 2200 lines) 00:58:36 well, I've decided to get in on the minilight action: http://github.com/tsuru/minilight-cl/tree/master, she compiles but has runtime errors. I thought I'd throw myself to the wolves for some critique. 00:59:31 leo2007: from googling "common lisp" and fft: http://common-lisp.net/project/cloud/ 00:59:32 <_3b> ooh, gi 00:59:48 ltriant [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:02:38 leo2007: hefner's, beach's and mathieu durand (?)'s FFT. I don't have the URL handy unfortunately 01:04:08 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:04:25 _3b: yah :) I still haven't gotten around to writing the macro you gave me tips on though 01:05:00 pkhuong: are those people's names? 01:05:37 yes. 01:06:37 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:07:32 -!- sellout [n=greg@24.128.50.176] has quit [] 01:09:12 <_3b> tsuru: got any test files? 01:09:19 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:09:29 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 01:09:44 pkhuong: is this something you have in mind http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/hacks/transcription/fft.lisp? 01:10:03 yes. 01:11:50 pkhuong: thanks 01:11:58 _3b: sure, but like I said, it still won't run yet. Give me two secs. 01:12:30 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 01:12:35 <_3b> tsuru: ok, anything in particular need looked at in it? 01:12:50 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:35 _3b: I've added the test, to the repo. 01:17:10 _3b: eh... my spatial-index.lisp is probably what I'm most worried about. I've not done much programming of data structs 01:17:17 and that is the octree 01:17:49 <_3b> yeah, octrees can get ugly :) 01:20:44 when it runs it gets errors with NIL is not of type something. I've yet to track that down...otherwise just general lispiness critique... Some parts of Minilight I've tried to re-engineer to be lispy and other I just translated as direct I could 01:21:23 <_3b> well, step 1 is don't turn off safety/debug until it works :) 01:21:47 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:22:14 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 01:22:20 heh did I do that? I think the vector is off because I pulled that in from another personal project... I'll have to go look at that 01:23:12 <_3b> you appear to be lying about types to the vector stuff 01:23:33 classic. 01:23:33 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 01:25:19 <_3b> specifcally, (coerce (mapcar 'float in) 'vector3d) makes read-vector work a bit better on that test 01:26:44 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-68-142-74.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:26:45 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-68-142-74.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:29:22 xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 01:31:16 _3b: thanks I'll give that a look 01:31:49 <_3b> center looks broken also 01:31:57 dnolen_ [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-140-97.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:17 <_3b> s/:node/:nodes/ in make-spatial-index 01:33:26 droogy` [n=user@88.238.199.19] has joined #lisp 01:33:41 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:52 <_3b> s/:initargs/:initarg/ in defclass scene 01:34:28 yeegads 01:34:47 <_3b> coerce ... 'vector -> coerce ... 'vector3d in make-scene 01:34:56 antgreen [n=Anthony@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:34:56 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:10 <_3b> (oops, maybe not) 01:35:29 davazp` [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:34 -!- davazp` [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:35:57 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250002.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:36:04 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:36:09 <_3b> maybe i just needed to recompile there... 01:36:19 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 01:36:30 -!- jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:36:33 jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 01:37:13 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:37:27 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:49 <_3b> tsuru: ah, normalize and nnormalize return wrong type for 0 length vectors 01:41:58 surface-point looks like it has a little ways to go... 01:42:11 <_3b> now why is the vector 0 length... 01:44:04 <_3b> ah, setting up vector to same axis as view vector doesn't work well :) 01:45:02 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 01:45:06 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:45:09 where is that? your speed tells me my debug-foo is still lacking 01:45:33 <_3b> make-camera 01:46:03 <_3b> are the branches of (if (vector-zerop right) ...) backwards? 01:47:20 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.21] has joined #lisp 01:47:37 <_3b> PI is a long float, don't pretend it is a single-float :p 01:47:49 I'll have to look at the original... arg I meant to float that 01:48:09 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:49:34 -!- antgree1 [n=Anthony@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:49:36 -!- droogy [n=user@88.238.199.19] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:50:23 c|mell [n=cmell@x250003.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 01:51:41 <_3b> tsuru: with-slots (direction origin) ray doesn't match the defclass ray 01:52:08 ah... that was my first ray class... 01:52:16 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:09 is there a quick primer on processing non-ascii strings with sbcl? i need to parse html files that are in non-unicode MS encodings. 01:53:39 non-unicode encoding!? 01:53:48 i can use either closure-html or html-parse, but i'm not sure of the stream mess that might await me 01:54:27 pkhuong: i'm not good with unicode-jargon, but i mean non unicode character encodings 01:54:29 nekobaka [n=baka@c-76-29-163-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:48 mjonsson [n=mjonsson@66-234-42-75.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:14 is there more to this than just setting :external-format to something like '(unsigned-byte 8)? 01:55:59 i don't need to configure slime, the console or anything else; just read from a file, process and write to another. 01:56:03 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-80cfdfdfa7e5e0a6] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:56:47 <_3b> tsuru: will it take much to fix that for new ray class? 01:58:23 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:59:41 _3b: ugh... yah just a bit 01:59:59 <_3b> ok, lemme see if i can figure out github stuff and i'll upload my changes 02:00:45 holycow [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:49 _3b: wow, thanks. 02:02:42 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:42 legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-4-246.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 02:03:05 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.21] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:03:32 fusss: Maybe something like :external-format if you want to convert them into characters of some sort? 02:03:48 -!- dnolen_ [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-140-97.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:04:17 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:18 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:07:06 -!- drafael [n=tapio@130.216.89.187] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:07:09 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.21] has joined #lisp 02:07:16 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 02:09:30 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:09:40 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 02:09:50 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:27 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:12:44 Interesting. I am getting control-stack-exhausted when SBCL is trying to print a not-very-large fixednum. And the whole stack looks only to be about 42 deep. This seems pretty small. Is there a way to increase the depth of the control stack? 02:13:19 you probably misdiagnosed the problem. 02:13:50 -!- cipher [n=cipher@pool-173-48-136-239.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:14:03 cipher [n=cipher@pool-173-48-136-239.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:48 Er, ok. SBCL says "Control Stack Exhausted". The Backtrace shows three levels of %OUTPUT-REASONABLE-INTEGER-IN-BASE 222081 10 02:14:56 What diagnosis is suggested by this? 02:15:16 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:15:33 wgl: how did you get to trying to print an integer? 02:16:51 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["[BX] He-Man uses BitchX. *HE HAS THE POOWWEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRR!!!!!*"] 02:17:30 pkhuong: Printing out a fairly trivial list read in from a file of s-expressions. 02:17:40 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:18:10 wgl: do you have a test case? 02:18:53 Not handy. Would take some effort to prepare. I have much similar code, but only this particular program is giving me this error. 02:19:32 Meaning it is acting like a simple test case would not duplicate this problem. 02:20:04 I'd say the backtrace is a red herring. Dynamic-extent allocation? Callbacks from foreign code? 02:20:32 <_3b> tsuru: ok, theoretically there is a fork up with my changes up to th epoint of that ray stuff 02:20:36 pkhuong: I have added no foreign code, so any foreign code is part of sbcl. 02:20:39 -!- alec [n=alec@pool-96-233-16-99.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:22:07 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-36-128.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:22:26 _3b: okay I'll check it out. I found the camera if test was missing a (not ...) and I'm working on the ray stuf 02:22:30 stuff 02:22:39 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:22:55 pkhuong: The top three on the backtrace is the control-stack-exhausted-error, followed by two foreign functions, followed by %OUTPUT-REASONABLE-INTEGER-IN-BASE calls three deep. 02:22:59 Good morning. 02:23:16 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 02:24:03 <_3b> hmm, seem to have missed a step or something, my changes don't seem to be on the master branch of the fork 02:24:53 -!- blackwolf [n=blackwol@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:24:56 blackwolf [n=blackwol@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:23 <_3b> tsuru: oh yeah... use spaces instead of tabs :p 02:35:18 ... what the.. I thought paredit was doing the right thing 02:36:17 -!- droogy` [n=user@88.238.199.19] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:36:18 bittin___ [i=bittin@anapnea.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:02 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:38:07 -!- blackwolf [n=blackwol@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:40:17 does sbcl on x86_64 do tail call optimization on recursion? 02:40:36 <_3b> wgl: depends on optimize settings 02:40:53 <_3b> and possibly context, don't really know the details 02:41:16 droogy` [n=user@88.238.199.19] has joined #lisp 02:42:42 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:00 durka42 [n=durka@d231.mertza.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 02:43:08 huh. I thought sbcl guaranteed TCO :\ 02:43:17 is that only in x86? 02:44:01 <_3b> don't think any CL guarantees it, sbcl explicitly turns it off at debug 3, not sure what it guarantess otherwise 02:44:47 There are many things that look like tail calls in CL but aren't without a lot of work. Guaranteeing TCO doesn't really make sense when the criteria are as complex as they are. 02:46:37 -!- legumbre` is now known as legumbre 02:47:16 pkhuong: Since we are brain dumping about FFT, I am wondering about the relative cost of exchanging elements in an array, using temporary storage, and wasting more arithmetic operations. I suspect those considerations have changed since last time someone thought about it. 02:47:30 -!- bittin___ is now known as bittin``` 02:47:46 IIUC, FFT is memory bound. Transposing elements once for locality 02:47:51 may very well pay off 02:48:18 pkhuong: That would speak in favor of a bit-reversal-kind-of technique. 02:48:52 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:32 pkhuong: Though I am not sure that is true for the size FFTs that we use for processing sound. 02:49:48 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 02:50:12 pkhuong: They are like 1024 complex double floats, so 16kB, which fits nicely in the cache. 02:50:49 minion: lisppaste 02:50:49 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 02:51:26 tmh pasted "Keyword default function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78935 02:51:42 beach: SSE gives us 16 complex double floats (minus temporaries). That's still sensibly faster than L1 02:51:50 ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:52:22 Please look at my paste an explain to me why I have to include the package prefix for the default value of the keyword. 02:52:23 hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:53 pkhuong: Yes, I see. 02:52:55 <_3b> tmh: forgot in-package? 02:53:04 Doh! 02:54:01 I knew that, I was just testing to see if everyone was awake. :-P 02:54:20 *_3b* isn't 02:54:49 pkhuong: I shall continue thinking about bit-reversal-related techniques then, because I already know how to do it real fast in the case of radix 2. 02:57:55 dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:59:39 -!- bittin``` [i=bittin@anapnea.net] has left #lisp 03:00:58 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:01:09 how does one debug an intermittent memory fault error in SBCL? is it straightforward to at least get the faulting ip and registers once it has landed me in the debugger? 03:01:30 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-204.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:02:05 (the lisp debugger, that is) 03:04:10 devbittin [n=user@c-65c570d5.013-56-73746f5.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 03:09:38 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:09:48 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 03:09:48 bittin` [n=user@c-65c570d5.013-56-73746f5.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 03:10:11 -!- bittin` [n=user@c-65c570d5.013-56-73746f5.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:10:56 chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:28 -!- devbittin [n=user@c-65c570d5.013-56-73746f5.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:11:46 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:50 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@static-70-108-241-27.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:17:23 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177076196.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:31 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:33 devbittin [n=user@c-65c570d5.013-56-73746f5.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 03:19:55 -!- devbittin [n=user@c-65c570d5.013-56-73746f5.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:20:21 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:22:23 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 03:22:44 devbittin [n=user@c-65c570d5.013-56-73746f5.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 03:26:53 ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:08 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 03:30:09 *hefner* improvises 03:31:45 So with respect to the SBCL run-time allocation, is the control stack essentially the CPU call stack? 03:31:50 yes. 03:32:05 same stack as C. 03:32:28 So if i am using lots of heap, this is not going to lead to a control stack seize? 03:32:36 no. 03:37:19 hefner: is this still the run-program thing? 03:39:22 slyrus: without claiming certainty that the original program was really run-program, yes. the first thing I tried was a little test that calls run-program in a loop, and found it (sometimes) will get a memory fault within parseable-logical-namestring-p 03:39:56 (which isn't the original observed failure of dying with "segmentation fault", either) 03:40:31 so I'm just screwing around, trying to learn something 03:41:33 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:42:40 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:02 alanhaggai [n=alanhagg@p3m/member/alanhaggai] has joined #lisp 03:47:32 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 03:48:27 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177076196.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:50:21 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.163.88] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:50:28 Ginei_Morioka [n=irssi_lo@78.114.190.234] has joined #lisp 03:52:13 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 03:53:51 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:19 *fusss* is knee deep in flexi-streams, :external-format, unicode vs MS encodings mess 03:55:13 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:55:14 if anybody has a working flexi-stream snippet showing the reading of a file in one encoding and writing it back in another, i would greatly appreciate it. 03:55:59 fusss: You probably don't need flexi-streams for that. 03:56:21 :external-format on sbcl knows :default and :utf-8 as arguments for me, and it barfs at :windows-1256 or '(:windows-1256) 03:56:36 -!- ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:56:41 there is no fancy exception to comparing things such as structs or hash tables using equalp that detects circularities, is there? 03:57:21 beach: i can use the unix tr command, but what other lisp options are there besides flexi-stream (i can't even build the babel docs in my machines) 03:57:41 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 03:58:04 -!- rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-934b4c6b859b49f7] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:58:13 oh dear. fusss is working for the terr'ists 03:58:31 fusss: Just open the input file with one encoding and the output file with another. 03:58:39 hefner: for the Nth time, advertising agencies are not terrorists 03:59:10 fusss: You need flexi-streams only when you need to change the encoding in the middle, such as when reading an email message in ascii and then switching to a different encoding once you have parsed the header. 03:59:19 beach: i know, but i need to do it automatically; think as in web crawler archiving texts 03:59:31 oh 03:59:34 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:00:18 hefner: you're in Maryland?! 04:01:52 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:02:19 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:02:28 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 04:03:12 the secret is out. 04:03:57 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-90-189-158.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:58 you ever go to the fringe-dc meetings? 04:04:21 good morning 04:05:08 fusss: no, but I've thought about it. 04:05:10 hey kami- :-) 04:05:34 hefner: if i knew it wouldn't suck, i would have gone 04:06:40 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:14 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 04:10:47 drafael [n=tapio@130.216.92.209] has joined #lisp 04:13:34 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:58 hefner: do you have a backtrace handy? 04:16:05 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has left #lisp 04:17:21 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 04:17:55 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:18:23 hefner pasted "slightly annotated backtrace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78937 04:18:57 thanks 04:18:59 (..wherein I learned how SBCL returns to lisp from a signal) 04:20:32 rolly1975 [n=rory@026.d.001.dav.iprimus.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:20:45 oh, I didn't include the error, the address was 0. 04:20:56 aggieben [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 04:28:24 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:32:36 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:33:20 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:49 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-197-101.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:31 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.196.186] has joined #lisp 04:35:36 -!- azanar [n=edcarrel@edm1a.mavericklabel.com] has quit [] 04:35:59 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-294e9b0116c47044] has joined #lisp 04:36:16 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-294e9b0116c47044] has left #lisp 04:36:40 hefner: who knew parsing a namestring could be so hairy? 04:43:39 more recently, I saw this with PARSE-NATIVE-UNIX-NAMESTRING as the last lisp function on the stack instead 04:44:32 mindstab [n=dan@janus.mindstab.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:46 .join #lisp 04:44:59 -!- mindstab [n=dan@janus.mindstab.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:46:13 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.21] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:48:09 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:48:42 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 04:48:50 hefner: hrm... so i guess the question comes down to whether there's a bug in the namestring parsing stuff or if something immediately preceding this section is blowing up the stack (or corrupting the heap). 04:49:03 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:52:26 slyrus: as I'm mostly clueless, perhaps you can explain what that backtrace means. Why is __restore_rt on that stack (we're not still inside an RT signal, are we?), and who caused the memory fault? 04:52:46 <_3b> what does (declare (values ...)) do? 04:53:02 _3b: declare return values' types 04:53:58 hefner: hmm... I was figuring the stack got blown up before then, but then again i'm even more clueless as to what __restore_rt is... 04:55:46 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:56:06 <_3b> pkhuong: by itself? 04:56:41 _3b: as opposed to? 04:56:44 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:56:54 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 04:57:02 <_3b> as opposed to "This type specifier can be used only as the value-type in a function type specifier or a the special form." 04:57:15 <_3b> or am i looking in the wrong place? 04:57:50 _3b: it's not used as a type specifier, but as a declaration type. 04:58:04 <_3b> is that sbcl specific? 04:58:48 slyrus: from my googling, I got the idea that glibc has a __restore_rt which gets pushed on the stack for a signal handler (or someone) to return into, which calls sigreturn 04:59:06 _3b: and cmucl, probably. 04:59:21 not portable, in any case. 04:59:31 <_3b> pkhuong: ok, that would explain not finding it in clhs :) 05:02:08 _3b: it now renders but it's all black. Will have to figure out that logic error tomorrow. 05:02:31 slyrus: in fact I got the idea it has a __restore and __restore_rt, the latter for RT signals, which is odd, because a SIGSEGV isn't. Can you get a SIGSEGV inside of, say, the stop for gc signal? 05:02:48 *hefner* speculates wildly, compounding the confusion 05:02:49 <_3b> tsuru: cool, sounds like an improvement :) 05:03:53 _3b: I agree :) thanks for the corrections earlier! 05:05:45 ah...it'll have to be a binary file 05:06:24 hefner: I get "sbcl in free(): error: modified (chunk-) pointer" 05:06:55 <_3b> tsuru: change the P6 to P3 and you can write out the colors in ascii :p 05:08:07 is there any way of creating items in a canvas without giving them seperate names in ltk? 05:08:43 ah summer. The period of time that I mostly spend waiting for computer to spit numbers back at me. 05:09:22 i want to create several items with mapcar but i can't because they all need seperate name bindings 05:12:05 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 05:12:46 i know noone here really uses ltk :) but maybe someone has experience with it, surely a disturbing experiance :) 05:12:54 huh, I guess it really is calling to nowhere. 05:15:15 -!- deech [n=deech@71.10.166.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:22:14 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:25:28 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:26:50 hefner: there's probably a bug in spawn 05:27:03 hefner annotated #78937 "compare/contrast" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78937#1 05:27:07 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host242.190-227-33.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:27:30 -!- rolly1975 [n=rory@026.d.001.dav.iprimus.net.au] has quit ["The computer fell asleep"] 05:27:38 I assume that this isn't failing on the first run-program call, right? 05:28:15 the very first? no, it has to execute random thousands of times. 05:28:42 right. I'm thinking there's some memory corruption elsewhere, so the non-deterministic nature of the backtraces is a red herring 05:30:02 hrmm... what about the fact that we don't check for the close calls failing in spawn? 05:32:21 -!- mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:32:26 problem elsewhere, sure. I've mostly been trying to get a handle on what the different parts of the backtrace mean, and if the 0 and _restore_rt are relevant to anything (even if the problem is the stack getting trashed somewhere else) 05:32:37 i doubt it 05:32:42 deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:33:14 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 05:33:48 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 05:34:24 heh: "Strange stuff happens to keep the Unix state of the world coherent." 05:35:54 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 05:36:00 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit [Client Quit] 05:38:02 what problem would a close call failing cause? 05:38:16 dunno. just grasping at straws here. 05:38:35 unblocking signals in spawn sounds like it might be problematic though 05:40:03 I shall add some glorious error checking 05:40:52 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:48 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:39 SBCL Jealousy Theory: when you can't get something right in sbcl, try another implementation .. even if you bang the keys randomly in LW, sbcl will take notice and do what you meant earlier (*sigh*) 05:44:05 s0ber [i=pie@118-168-239-154.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:21 or maybe it was my mistake confusing :externam-format and :element-type, hehehe 05:44:57 fusss, also see http://catb.org/esr/jargon/html/magic-story.html 05:48:19 lnostdal: nice story with familiar names :-) 05:48:29 aye .. lispers .. them be everywhere 05:48:34 "MORE MAGIC" should be a minion chant, imo 05:48:40 hehe, yah :) 05:49:54 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:52:55 :external-format, not really always "external" is it? for input streams it's the encoding of the data being read in; for output streams it's the encoding to use in output. :input-format and :output-format, plus :io-format for two-way streams would have been more obvious, eh? 05:53:55 fusss: :external-format; format used outside of SBCL. 05:55:40 pkhuong: i currently only configure the external format of the output file; the input is always in arabic windows-1256, and it works. i don't think sbcl uses the MS encoding for arabic internally. 05:56:20 no, SBCL uses full 32 bit values for codepoints. 05:57:19 The internal representation is independent of the external format and always the same. 05:58:03 know of ways to "configure" the internal representation? say, if I want it to be utf-8 (dunno why, but humor me) 05:58:29 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:54 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:42 no. 06:02:13 maniacxs_ [n=me@p5B21A6ED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:03:25 Ragnaroek [i=54a65b9f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-64d61590675dce2a] has joined #lisp 06:03:27 Bribek 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- http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 07:32:20 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:46 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:33:18 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:33:35 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-66-143-167-113.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:33:59 Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-25.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:02 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:01 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 07:35:05 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-90-189-158.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:35:26 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-25.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:01 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@c-24-130-53-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:36:07 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-76-102-117-117.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:37:54 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:40:05 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:46:36 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-90-189-158.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:46:42 aunwork [n=aunwork@mail.ionicsoft.com] has joined #lisp 07:47:12 lumSais [n=Victor@cm127014.red91-117.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 07:49:02 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250003.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:50:56 c|mell [n=cmell@x250038.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 07:53:28 Jiaji [n=Jiaji@121.77.153.212] has joined #lisp 07:54:51 is there a way to use apply with special forms? 07:55:47 Jiaji: yes: wrap the special form in a lambda. 07:56:10 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 07:56:16 (apply (lambda (c th el) (if c (funcall th) (funcall el))) (= a 1) (lambda () (print 'one)) (lambda (print 'other))) 07:56:29 + list 07:56:53 pjb: ok, so there's no #' for special forms? 07:57:02 None. 07:57:10 thanks 07:58:57 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-175.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 08:01:53 Jiaji: #' is specified to work on special operators, but the return value is implementation-dependent, and not very useful 08:02:57 and most implementations implement it by returning a undefined-function error. 08:04:06 I see, that's what turns out on me, thanks 08:06:51 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 08:10:10 -!- Jiaji [n=Jiaji@121.77.153.212] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"] 08:12:48 pjb: How do you mean? 08:13:24 Ah ok, I misremembered its specification 08:13:44 In particular I mixed it up with FDEFINITION 08:19:33 -!- lumSais [n=Victor@cm127014.red91-117.mundo-r.com] has left #lisp 08:23:43 If I want to use the symbol +, I can do '+ 08:23:47 How would I go around quoting . ? 08:24:00 Without getting into strings and the such. 08:24:51 <_3b> '\. ? 08:25:22 Ah, right, I did \. but didn't think of '\. 08:25:23 Thanks. 08:30:01 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:30:58 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:31:15 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 08:31:23 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:35:40 Traveler [n=traveler@122.165.28.253] has joined #lisp 08:37:00 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-126-104.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:37:58 ?: it seems that hunchentoot transfers page only after generating complete page output. Is there a way to stream on the go... 08:39:27 sulo [n=sulo@p57B4B51D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:46:54 Will I run into implementation limitations creating and instantiating a lot of anonymous classes? As in those classes not being gc'ed for instance. 08:50:50 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:55:20 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:57:11 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:35 is there an xml-rpc (and soap) lib I can use to integrate with a web service? 08:59:26 Traveler: check out (send-headers) in the Hunchentoot docs 09:01:12 kami-: there's cxml-rpc, which integrates with hunchentoot for the server part and with drakma for the client part 09:01:15 no soap, though 09:01:27 (and I have no intention of ever implementing soap, either (-:) 09:02:34 aerique: be warned that if you're behind a proxy it might still buffer the page so you need to set your reply headers correctly as well (i can't recall exactly what you have to do, it's been too long ago) 09:02:51 Traveler: sigh, the above was meant for you 09:10:49 manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:10:49 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:12:47 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:12:47 -!- manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:17:21 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a65b9f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-64d61590675dce2a] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 09:17:41 antifuchs: thank you. I will look at cxml-rpc. You don't intend to implement soap because you don't need it? 09:18:00 kami-: that, and I'm scared witless by it. 09:18:42 antifuchs: why scared? 09:19:41 Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 09:19:51 it looks to be way too complex for what it does, and I've heard too many interoperability horror stories. 09:20:29 antifuchs: unfortunately, we have more and more clients who want us to code against their SOAP web services. 09:21:13 antifuchs: because they can easily export their Java classes as web services 09:21:38 you could use a soap implementation you know works with theirs, and expose a simple api (say, xml-rpc or json) to drive that from your app (-: 09:21:58 I'm thinking containment here (-; 09:22:07 antifuchs: yes, pragmatic approach. 09:23:01 antifuchs: OTOH, if I had an implementation which would work with JAX-WS, I would cover 100% of my clients. 09:24:23 when trying to print large (about 100 lines) output to the repl, my slime loses connection to the lisp. Does anyone know what could cause this? 09:25:33 antifuchs: does cxml support namespaces? 09:26:00 kami-: according to the website, it does (: 09:26:41 -!- Numlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:26:44 G'day! 09:26:57 hello spiaggia 09:32:05 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:37:50 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:54 cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 09:52:07 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 09:52:36 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:50 -!- devbittin [n=user@c-65c570d5.013-56-73746f5.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:55:15 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-146-28.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 09:56:32 I'm thinking about committing the calling convention changes before this freeze. Any objections? 09:57:09 something (not in sbcl) that will be broken by changing call frame layout? 09:57:19 ntoll [n=ntoll@87.236.135.147] has joined #lisp 09:59:43 mega1: I'll let you commit yours if you let me commit mine 10:00:10 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-294e9b0116c47044] has joined #lisp 10:00:36 mega1: anonymous classes are not gced at the moment 10:00:46 Xof: well, I certainly let you commit yours. 10:01:12 so that's a no-no for now, good to know. 10:01:57 they are held onto firstly by superclasses (which keep a record of their subclasses) and also in any gf caches (via their layouts) 10:02:02 and possibly other places too 10:03:29 I'm not the release manager but I don't think we need to be that bureaucratic. 10:04:06 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:06:10 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 10:06:55 jewel [n=jewel@41.242.183.106] has joined #lisp 10:08:02 weak references could be sprinkled around in pcl 10:08:50 although the gf cache does sound performance critical 10:13:33 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 10:14:38 mas01dl [n=dlewis@158.223.51.75] has joined #lisp 10:15:09 spiaggia: now that there are two groups vaguely working simultaneously on gsharp, I think it would be nice to have some kind of issue tracker or similar tool to help coordinate things 10:15:22 something to assist in communicating what's going on 10:18:31 -!- Traveler [n=traveler@122.165.28.253] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 10:23:20 './clbuild dumpcore elephant' gives me => Loading ele-bdb... 10:23:20 unhandled SIMPLE-ERROR in thread #: 10:23:20 Missing file. Copy config.sexp in elephant root 10:23:20 directory to my-config.sexp and edit it appropriately. 10:23:45 i tried looking into the config.sexp, (which i've copied into my-config.sexp), but could not understand much from it 10:23:56 any pointers please 10:24:58 i'm on debian linux btw 10:25:22 what i got from the my-config.sexp is that it's trying to look for berkeley db installation 10:25:35 i dind't find a way to install it through either clbuild or apt 10:25:39 what am i missing here? 10:26:13 the elephant documentation? 10:27:44 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-219.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:28:39 "dumpcore elephant" == "dump a core with *all* elephant backends". If you don't want that, don't do it. 10:29:49 Xof: i took a look at http://common-lisp.net/project/elephant/doc/elephant.html#Configuring-Elephant 10:30:09 and i understand that it's looking for an installed berkeley-db in my machine 10:30:50 but i don't have it there. am not too familier w/ berkeley-db. am i supposed to install it via clbuild or via apt? didn't find it mentioned at either place 10:31:09 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:31:26 i guess i'll go through the documentation in a bit more detail and come back later 10:31:28 thanks guys 10:32:13 spradnyesh: via apt 10:32:14 spradnyesh: what distro are you using? 10:32:46 aptitude install libdbN.M-dev # or something like that, no idea which N.M elephant wants 10:33:00 lichtblau, rstandy: debian 10:33:55 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:34:10 i have libdb(4.2, 4.4, 4.5 and 4.6) all installed on my box (dind't know that libdb meant berkeleydb) 10:34:16 thanks for the hint 10:34:23 will try to take it up from here 10:34:25 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:34:30 spradnyesh: ok, so installa this packages: libdb4.7, libdb4.7-dev, db4.7-util 10:35:14 the config.sexp tells me that elephant is looking for version 4.5 10:35:33 now to install the -dev and -util pkg as rstandy says, and find the location where it is installed 10:35:35 rstandy pasted "my-config.sexp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78948 10:35:57 spradnyesh: and your my-config.sexp should look like the one I lisppasted 10:36:07 rstandy: that sure helps 10:36:11 lemme try it and get back 10:36:12 -!- CrazyEddy [n=tetrasub@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:36:15 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:36:17 spradnyesh: IIRC latests elephant doesn't work with 4.5 10:36:30 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 10:36:48 hello 10:36:59 fe[nl]ix: hi 10:37:11 hi rstandy 10:37:49 CrazyEddy [n=Cantoria@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 10:37:54 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:37:55 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-117-181.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:40:17 Cel: Still there? 10:45:09 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:45:45 rstandy: i tried 4.7 because of your suggestion, but got an error saying valid versions are 4.5 and 4.6, so i tried 4.6 10:46:13 now i'm getting a error 'unknown type specifier: T 10:46:13 [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR]' if i try to do '(asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'elephant)' in slime 10:46:46 spradnyesh: what version of elephant are you using? 10:48:01 rstandy: i did a './clbuild install elephant' just a few mins back, so it should be the latest (stable?). in any case how do i check the version of an installed system? 10:48:24 please pardon my ignorance, i'm very new to lisp and more so to clbuild/elephant/hunchentoot, etc 10:49:13 spradnyesh: I usually check the .asd file for the version 10:49:36 spradnyesh: or search for a variable/function which has "version" in its name 10:49:38 tcr: yes 10:49:41 spradnyesh: I'm new to lisp too ;-) 10:49:57 Cel: Do you still have that Emacs instance running? 10:50:34 tcr: I emptied my .sbcl dir and reinstalled everything with clbuild. I had quite an old slime version, now I have the latest one and the problem is gone 10:50:47 spradnyesh: I had your error too, but inisted with version 4.7 of bdb 10:50:50 version 0.9 10:50:59 Cel: Alright. 10:51:02 rstandy: how did you do that? 10:51:04 spradnyesh: uhm that's not the latest version 10:51:31 tcr: thanks for the help though :) 10:51:34 spradnyesh: I have the 1.0a1 here, also from clbuild 10:51:38 spradnyesh: strange 10:51:48 rstandy: but i just did a './clbuild install elephant' a few minutes back 10:52:03 spradnyesh: uhmm 10:52:04 am i supposed to pass some parameter to get a testing/unstable version? 10:52:12 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 10:52:16 like by default it gets a stable version 10:52:23 or something like that 10:53:07 spradnyesh: sorry I must go, but first I'll find a post on the elephant devel mailing list which will help you 10:53:26 rstandy: thanks for helping me so far 10:53:35 i've already come a long way since i started 10:53:38 thanks again 10:53:46 spradnyesh: you're welcome 10:54:47 looks like there's a -1.0 missing in the darcs url for elephant entry in wnpp-projects 10:54:52 spradnyesh: follow this thread: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.elephant.devel/2056/ 10:55:00 spradnyesh: hope this helps 10:55:22 lichtblau: yeah, you're right 10:55:41 spradnyesh: the clbuild elephant repo is not the latest 10:55:54 spradnyesh: follow the thread and you'll find the correct repo 10:55:56 spradnyesh: bye 10:56:20 spradnyesh: but you'll also have to install uffi as indicated in the thread rstandy pointed to. Unless they fixed their "the uffi package expands to sb-alian code" assumption in 1.0. 10:56:34 -!- Noll_Noll [n=28@c-ee70e253.4542024--62697410.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 10:57:26 ironChicken [n=nrichard@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 10:59:41 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 11:00:44 lichtblau: thanks, looking at that 11:02:06 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-30-105.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:02:07 oudeis [n=oudeis@85.65.228.52.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:59 -!- maniacxs [n=me@p5B21A332.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 11:06:05 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:06:36 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:15:05 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6C5A8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:00 Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:17:28 Baughn [n=svein@084202037181.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 11:18:08 "There is no way to recover the parameter list of a given function, nor is it possible to examine the inside of a function or a stack frame, or recover the source code for a function after it's been defined." <-- Is this in fact true for ANSI CL? 11:18:39 Baughn: Go through SLIME source code 11:19:02 p_l: SLIME uses lots of implementation-specific hacks 11:19:04 Depends on what 'recover' means. Otherwise pretty much implementation dependent. 11:19:25 Recover the syntax tree, as a macro would see it 11:19:30 Baughn: So you will find what is "standard" and what is ANSI. Other than that, CLHS 11:20:23 Getting people to use your version of defun can avoid many of these problems. :) 11:21:00 Well, true. :P 11:22:42 *p_l* wonders if he didn't just destroy his Firefox install 11:23:15 I guess not 11:26:23 Numlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:26:45 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:26:49 -!- Numlock is now known as PissedNumlock 11:32:47 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:33:41 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087ADE7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:40 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@85.65.228.52.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:38:50 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-247-173.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 11:42:37 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:43:03 Baughn: The ANSI standard does not specify much environment-wise. It's all pretty ubiquitously available though because of the interactive culture. 11:43:31 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1176023512.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:44:29 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f44e4.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:44:41 Baughn: The first and second point is almost there (FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION) but conforming implementations can implement it as a no-op. The second item is obviously pretty implementation-dependent. 11:45:43 Baughn: And supporting all of those is pretty an obvious move for all CL implementations that I bothered to check... 11:45:46 tcr: Yeah, I was pretty sure about the answer, I just wanted tomake sure I got this paper right 11:48:51 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:49:25 Baughn: Remember that when Common Lisp was designed, Symbolics was live and kicking. People outside the Lispm community pressured the committee to be considerate wrt environment stuff for the sake of stock hardware 11:49:32 mega1 [n=mega@53d82e04.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:49:55 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:50:10 tcr: Yes, I'm aware of all the reasons. Still, I wouldn't mind a Lisp'21. ;) 11:50:12 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:51:08 Baughn: Have a look at Eulisp. Also check out some of the later Parc papers. That's Lisp of the mid-90s as opposed to Common Lisp which is a Lisp of the late 80s. 11:51:14 there was an idea for creating a set of documents that could serve as "additional standards", afaik CDR was the name 11:52:15 Baughn: There are some papers about type inference and Lisp; though they're mostly based on kaplan-ulman rather than hindley-milner. 11:55:05 didn't SBCL implement some type inference? 11:56:17 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250038.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:56:22 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-247-173.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:56:39 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:59:24 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:06 sure, it's also a fixed-point algorithm, I believe 12:01:40 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 12:03:34 Xof: I suppose it can't hurt. 12:05:31 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 12:10:26 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-247-173.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 12:10:39 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:12:11 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1176023512.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 12:12:18 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 12:13:26 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1176023512.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:13:46 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:14:02 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:14:19 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 12:14:55 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:15:53 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1176023512.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 12:16:12 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 12:16:19 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 12:16:21 mega1: thank you for the sbcl-commits email :) 12:16:38 froydnj: which one? 12:16:52 mega1: all of it 12:17:36 does it actually bring real life goodness to your use case, sir? 12:18:29 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:18:38 I haven't run any benchmarks. I would not be overly surprised if it made chipz a bit faster, though. 12:18:46 I'm not sure how much the frame rearranging will help anyone in practice. 12:18:58 ah, benchmarks are on my blog. 12:19:28 The rearranging is worth nothing in terms of performance. 12:19:56 the five minute local call hack on the other hand ... 12:20:13 mega1, where's your blog located? 12:20:26 on planet.lisp.org :-) 12:20:41 the local call hack would be what would help chipz the most. 12:20:48 direct link: http://quotenil.com 12:22:03 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:23:11 in fact, biasing the frame pointer is a slight pessimization 12:23:24 about 1% over cl-bench 12:24:00 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d231.mertza.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 12:27:15 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 12:27:22 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:28:33 antek [n=antek@users172.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:29:23 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-219.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:30:35 c|mell [n=cmell@x250035.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 12:32:53 Liam2 [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:33:30 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-219.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:33:38 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:33 "New: ... CFFI 0.10.3 ..." -> 0.10.4 ? 12:35:21 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:35:32 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:35:56 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 12:36:42 decaf [n=mehmet@88.232.59.166] has joined #lisp 12:37:31 Nhe, topic spam sucks. :-/ 12:40:12 mega1: nice work for local calls :) 12:41:33 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:38 pkhuong: thanks. I knew that's going to be to most visible one percent of the total effort :-) 12:43:12 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 12:47:24 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:49:12 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-126-133.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:49:57 jonathon [n=user@66.43.153.130] has joined #lisp 12:50:25 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:51:30 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-2946.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 12:51:40 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 12:52:15 Hi all... I'd like your advice on writing a maintainable macro-defining macro. 12:52:34 hi lisp 12:52:35 The two macros are almost identical... they define a group of Hunchentoot handlers. 12:53:15 But at the innermost level of the handler, one will pass an extra argument to the function called by the handler, while the other will not. 12:54:03 I would like the macro-defining macro to select which funcall template to expand, based on a flag passed in. 12:54:37 The problem is, I am ending up with some double backquote code in the outermost template, and that seems kludgy. 12:54:48 let the flag be an optional parameter defaulting to t? 12:55:14 Well, yes, that's the plan. But then that flag has to select which code will be expanded 2 levels down... 12:56:06 So calling (def-foo functions args nil) will define some handlers that each call a function with args. 12:56:22 If it's simple enough, there's no problem with double backquote. Paste the code. 12:57:11 lichtblau: I'm curious whether you think my argument against UTF-16 on Allegro/Lispworks is completely nonsensical. :-) 12:57:12 I actually have it working very well, but I think it looks clumsy. Maybe I'm just getting used to seeing double backquotes in the outer macro that are expanded in the inner macro. 12:58:48 Well, paste it, and we may be able to give some feedback 12:59:03 -!- decaf [n=mehmet@88.232.59.166] has left #lisp 12:59:24 luis: no, I guess you're right and I had the wrong impression about its support for UTF-16 (as opposed to UCS-2) 13:00:25 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-161-244.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:00:30 luis: OTOH, I think that would indicate mostly just that they didn't think about this issue back when they did their Unicode support 13:00:46 cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 13:01:33 http://paste.lisp.org/display/78955 13:01:35 As an application/library programmer, I need to know what the implementation's function will do to my strings. For example, cxml happily uses UTF-16, so will users of cxml functions be able to pass those strings to Allegro functions in a meaningful way? 13:01:41 jonathon: (if flag `(defmacro m () (generate-something)) `(defmacro m () (generate-something-else))) 13:02:13 I just pasted my working solution, with example code to use it. 13:02:50 You're also right that in the past I've probably been trying too hard. :-) 13:02:51 lichtblau: I suppose they might chop the strings between surrogates. Any other issues? (That is an issue with Java too isn't it?) 13:03:56 Java has "give me the reassembled code point as a 21bit integer" methods today, don't they? Still annoying though. 13:04:13 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [] 13:05:21 jonathon: indeed, double-backquotes may be considered a style question, since the problem is merely a reading problem You can avoid them by generating explicit list building code ``(a ,b ,,c) --> `(list 'a b ,c) 13:06:28 matimago-: That is helpful, thanks. Isn't it easier, though, to read function call expansions when backquoted, rather than as a raw list? 13:06:39 luis: given the situation I think I'll copy&paste the utf8b codec to iolib and modify it do deal with ub32 vectors instead of strings 13:06:42 tcr: I saw in the logs that you asked about parse-docstrings. Unfortunately I haven't worked on it for months now. But I'm planning to introduce it at work, so that should give it some impetus in the near future. 13:06:53 luis: unless you want that in babel 13:07:13 So ``(foo a ,b ,,c) is easier to read than `(list 'foo 'a b ,c) right? 13:07:28 jonathon: looks sort of messy, yes, but if you are happy with the exposed api, why bother? :) 13:07:40 fe[nl]ix: we should fix it babel first though. Because it was based on an older version of the utf-8 codec that had some bugs. 13:07:48 jonathon: i think that is highly subjective. a chooice as good as any. 13:08:10 I think. I might be recalling that wrong. 13:08:18 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 13:08:49 luis: do you have a reference to the issues with utf in lw/acl? 13:08:53 lichtblau: I'll make a proper release of named-readtables next week because I'm going to need for my job which will begin in May. How ready is it? 13:08:55 -!- mvillene1ve is now known as mvilleneuve 13:09:12 lichtblau: Otherwise I'll just resort to texinfo like I did for parse-declarations. 13:09:23 for next week? Not ready enough. 13:09:41 Alright. 13:10:03 hypno: hold on. 13:10:04 luis: yes, UTF-8B.2 fails here on sbcl 13:11:57 jonathon: well in this simple case, yes, ``(...) is easier than `(list ...). 13:13:34 hypno: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.babel.devel/15/focus=3453 ; this was what I was referring to. 13:13:38 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:13:44 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:13:53 jonathon: I don't like nested backquotes at all. If I had the choice, I'd probably use with-sexp-builder which you can find here http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/darcs/alexandria/macros.lisp 13:14:15 luis: ok, thanks. 13:14:30 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 13:16:37 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-247-173.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:16:56 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.242.183.106] has quit [Success] 13:17:50 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:14 tcr: I'll check that out.... 13:18:36 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:20:26 oudeis [n=oudeis@80.250.159.240] has joined #lisp 13:21:56 fe[nl]ix: after I deal with the pending issues in cffi-devel I'll probably give babel a round of bug fixing. 13:22:14 cool :) 13:22:49 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 13:23:00 After all, it seems like it's in the center of dependency graphs of many families. ;-) 13:23:19 yepp 13:23:21 http://paste.lisp.org/display/78955#2 13:23:41 Here is a cleaner version. Does the ,, and `` section look too clumsy to you guys? 13:25:13 -!- TDT [n=user@191.16.63.69.dyn.southslope.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:26:06 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:26:45 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-294e9b0116c47044] has left #lisp 13:27:20 -!- Liam2 [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:28:37 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:32:31 TDT [n=user@191.16.63.69.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:29 Dear Windows experts. CCL/win32 always opens a console window for me. Can I get rid of that? 13:36:34 tabbot [n=tabb0t@202.83.41.161] has joined #lisp 13:36:47 -!- tabbot [n=tabb0t@202.83.41.161] has quit [Client Quit] 13:37:04 I've tried linking with -mwindows in addition to -mno-cygwin, but got linker errors about crt2.o. Probably a bad idea considering that CCL is probably designed to actually read from/write to that console. 13:38:33 lichtblau: http://www.turtle.dds.nl/run/ ? :) 13:38:57 lichtblau: use editbin to change the subsystem flag to Windows (instead of console) in the ccl executable header 13:41:11 editbin /subsystem:windows wx86cl.exe :) 13:41:46 blandest: that's some cliki-worthy advice 13:44:03 -!- jonathon [n=user@66.43.153.130] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:44:40 willb [n=wibenton@144.92.98.65] has joined #lisp 13:46:37 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 13:46:44 -!- mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:46:55 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:47:41 frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.115.144] has joined #lisp 13:49:12 yahooooo6 [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:03 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has quit [] 13:51:53 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-30-105.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:51:54 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:52:23 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-25-222.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:52:57 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has left #lisp 13:53:34 blandest: thanks! 13:54:02 deliana [n=deliana@147.210.246.189] has joined #lisp 13:54:22 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:54:23 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:54:55 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:54:58 mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has joined #lisp 13:55:55 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 13:56:42 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:49 -!- frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.115.144] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:58:57 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:01:12 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-4-246.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:01:42 -!- frank_s__ [n=FrankS@41.145.115.144] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:02:09 hmmm, I have a lot of output in my slime buffer, is there a simple way to ditch it and free that memory? 14:02:22 C-c M-o 14:02:32 thanks 14:03:17 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-34-251.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:11:06 gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-95-53-161-51.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 14:11:30 frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.115.144] has joined #lisp 14:11:31 -!- mas01dl [n=dlewis@158.223.51.75] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:13:07 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-129-241.vologda.ru] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:13:28 -!- gemelen_ is now known as gemelen 14:15:28 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.196.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:24:11 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 14:24:25 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:25:01 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student167-76.hampshire.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:25:22 -!- antek [n=antek@users172.kollegienet.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:25:38 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F4BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:30 rcarnevale [n=rcarneva@host134-52-static.32-85-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:27:55 emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:28:14 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:28:56 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 14:29:12 anyone else notice that the Practical Common Lisp online version link to chapter 9 is broken? It was fine the other day... 14:29:49 mas01dl [n=dlewis@158.223.51.75] has joined #lisp 14:30:22 works ok 14:30:47 stassats`: really? I wonder if something is wrong with my browser or what 14:30:57 really 14:30:58 using FireFox xhere 14:32:02 hmm Safari can open the page but FireFox won't 14:32:18 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:39:33 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:40:00 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:41:04 -!- matimago- [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:41:08 sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B51D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:41:47 manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:41:47 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:42:33 wchogg [n=wchogg@216.165.144.151] has joined #lisp 14:43:30 -!- manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:43:37 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:45:21 manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:45:21 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:46:43 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:46:43 -!- manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:47:53 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 14:48:26 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:48:27 psheldr [n=Miranda@217.13.173.72] has joined #lisp 14:48:53 -!- sulo [n=sulo@p57B4B51D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:49:15 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 14:50:04 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has joined #lisp 14:54:06 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 14:54:12 Greetings. 14:55:20 -!- rcarnevale [n=rcarneva@host134-52-static.32-85-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 14:58:59 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@87.236.135.147] has quit ["this is not a quit message"] 15:00:12 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 15:02:25 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:10 ;; else 15:05:16 did I type that, or just think it? 15:05:44 pkhuong: I have finally isolated my problem. Unfortunately, the resolution makes no sense. I removed a handler-case from around a case used to dispatch based on first symbol in a sublist read from a file, and then everything worked. Putting back in the handler-case causes sbcl 1.0.25 to get the control stack message again about halfway through the file. 15:05:44 it's there alright 15:05:54 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:06 -!- yahooooo6 [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:07:07 that's a nasty sounding problem wgl 15:07:57 frank_s__ [n=FrankS@41.145.115.144] has joined #lisp 15:08:15 I'm having troubles with cl-json (from clbuild) and parsing the examples from the json site. I get "The value 0 is not of type (INTEGER 1 536870908)." What is going wrong? 15:08:27 Quite. I will try to isolate it down to a pastable problem, but it will take a bit, as the code in my program is necessary to debug a production problem. 15:09:40 Cel, well its not 15:09:45 spacebat: whatever was happening was corrupting the control stack in some way, as successive runs would not always come up with the same backtrace. 15:10:00 spacebat: then I must be doing something wrong, can you help me? 15:10:02 even worse, a heisenbug 15:11:06 I'm afraid its way past my bedtime Cel, but it looks like somewhere in cl-json or a lib it depends on, there is an expectation of a positive integer 15:11:50 strange thing is that in the json file I'm using, there is no integer 15:12:39 so I don't get why it would be expecting an integer 15:12:42 oh, then maybe its trying to open a stream, or read from one, and getting or requesting zero when there should be something there 15:13:04 I'll look a little deeper 15:13:10 Cel: it's in cl-json itself, not in your example 15:13:19 yes sounds like a backtrace might help 15:13:21 stassats`: I feared as much 15:13:56 cl-json is hosed? 15:13:59 Cel: my guess is that something in cl-json uses vector-push-extend in a naughty way 15:14:15 (JSON::VECTOR-ACCUMULATOR-ADD #\m) 15:14:19 sbcl recently changed to be strict in what it expects for the extension parameter; you're not allowed to pass a desired-extension of 0 15:14:21 that's the toplevel function where it breaks, so yeah 15:14:35 ah, I'm using quite a new version of sbcl (.27) 15:15:45 time to patch cl-json then 15:16:30 I have to be able to embed a few lines of C code in a DSL. At first I used strings, but having to escape double quotes and backslahes is becoming too annoying. I am about to create a reader macro to create a raw string until an end-of-string keyword is found. Any opinon on this ? 15:16:39 jfactor [n=jfactor@student165-50.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 15:16:55 kuwabara: check CL-INTERPOL perhaps 15:17:07 it has a fair bit of string reading macro magic 15:17:30 kuwabara: another option is to make up a sexp syntax for C 15:17:47 if you use pretty-printing, it shouldn't be that hard 15:18:02 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 15:18:31 hmm, patching something like that is a little beyond my experience right now, I'll try a different json library 15:18:31 mathrick: I already have that. I have to add a last resort for cases where really strange C code is needed. 15:18:34 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 15:18:59 Cel: ask maintainers to fix it 15:19:02 kuwabara: what kind of C code cannot be expressed as sexp? 15:19:11 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:02 mathrick: usage of strange C macros 15:20:20 mathrick: oh, well, I could do it, now that you're asking. 15:20:23 stassats`: going to write up a little demo and do that right now 15:20:37 kuwabara: :) 15:20:39 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-3-226.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:56 kuwabara: you could also abuse the |foo| symbol escaping machinery 15:22:46 mathrick: lol. it may work. 15:22:47 let's say that a symbol starting with @ is output into the generated code as-is, and then you could quote with || instead of "". 15:23:40 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:23:54 -!- frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.115.144] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:24:16 man, I wish I had an access to a working DNS 15:24:30 you never realise how much you'd miss DNS until it breaks 15:24:45 mathrick: thanks for you idea, it's going to be much simpler than I expected. 15:24:50 someone save me, my brain is turning into your REPL! 15:24:58 waaaah 15:24:59 kuwabara: you're welcome 15:25:05 emacsphan: (throw 'quit 'quit) 15:25:14 phew 15:26:08 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-43-179.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:49 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 15:29:18 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-219.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:30:13 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:30:48 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-237-150.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:54 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:51 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:32:10 sykopomp` [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:32:22 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-237-150.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:32:38 tombom_ [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 15:33:04 manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has joined #lisp 15:33:12 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:25 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@76.29.88.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:33:35 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:42 bobbysmith0071 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 15:35:14 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:35:24 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:39 -!- mas01dl [n=dlewis@158.223.51.75] has quit [] 15:36:21 ah, just found on the cl-json mailing list that there will be a patch for this soon.. (posted on the 15th of April) 15:39:27 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-8-93.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:39:42 -!- emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:41:00 morning 15:41:44 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-223.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:44:18 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:23 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 15:46:14 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:46:33 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:47:38 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:49:01 -!- tombom [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:49:02 -!- tombom_ is now known as tombom 15:50:00 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:50:23 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:50:52 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:26 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 16:00:05 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student165-50.hampshire.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:03:39 hello slyrus 16:03:42 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [] 16:03:49 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:04:14 hey mvilleneuve! what's new? 16:05:47 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:08:25 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:09:07 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:10:14 slyrus: now working in my own company, Lisp development is expected soon (hopefully) :) 16:10:32 congratulations! what's the general idea of the company, if you can say? 16:11:06 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:11:49 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:12:22 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:12:53 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:13:48 mvilleneuve: congratulations :-) 16:15:20 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 16:16:26 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 16:16:53 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:17:02 slyrus: developing mobile applications 16:17:15 hm. have to go now 16:17:16 bye 16:17:18 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-126-133.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:18:32 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 16:20:11 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-25.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit 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has joined #lisp 16:30:46 -!- andy_chicago [n=andy@onshore-gw.logika.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:31:11 hi, anyone faced this error with clsql : Couldn't load foreign library "clsql_mysql" 16:32:07 prabuinet: I don't use clsql, but that error suggests either you don't have mysql installed or have not specified where it is located. 16:32:53 You may have mysql installed, but perhaps you also need the development headers and source. 16:33:15 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-25.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:24 tmh: i installed libmysqlclient-dev 16:33:30 -!- bobbysmith0071 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:33:58 make sure asdf can find clsql-mysql.asd 16:34:10 tmh: the file "clsql_mysql.so" is also there 16:34:30 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 16:35:29 also check the value of clsql:*foreign-library-search-paths* 16:38:50 jlf: that list contain the path where clsql_mysql.so file is 16:39:10 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-25.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:39:22 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-25.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:36 prabuinet: there is some discussion of this in appendix a of the clsql manual 16:42:13 prabuinet: is it looking for a very specific version of the .so? 16:43:15 Fade: wait i will paste the error 16:44:44 milanj [n=milan@93.87.194.253] has joined #lisp 16:44:58 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:16 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:45:58 http://paste.lisp.org/display/78961 16:46:43 did you check the appendix that jlf pointed to? 16:47:21 oh, neat, it crashes without threads too. 16:48:57 prabuinet: LD_LIBRARY_PATH perhaps? 16:50:29 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-25.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:35 hefner: is this still the run-program thing? 16:50:43 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-25.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:50:45 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.196.186] has joined #lisp 16:50:46 slyrus: yeah 16:50:49 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-25.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:50:56 well, that's good news 16:51:03 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-25.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:06 it will keep the thread-haters from blaming threads, anyway 16:51:09 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-25.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:21 d3mag0gu3 [n=a-grever@nat/microsoft/x-81102ddf7e756ff2] has joined #lisp 16:51:21 that isn't to say there aren't more exciting problems with threads 16:51:25 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 16:51:32 there are even exiting problems with threads 16:51:50 -!- mega1 [n=mega@53d82e04.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:52:02 ah, look, mega1 has run away 16:53:45 hefner: do you have a nice isolated test case for this? 16:54:44 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:55:05 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 16:57:06 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:57:29 prabuinet: my clsql manual may be dated, but it refers to clsql:*foreign-library-search-paths* and your backtrace refers to clsql-sys:*foreign-library-search-paths* -- does the latter contain the directory of interest? 16:57:44 slyrus: I do things like (loop (run-program "whatever" `("crash me harder") :wait nil :output t)) 16:58:09 jlf: i will check 16:58:48 jlf: yes 16:59:43 jlf: i contains the path 17:03:38 levy [n=ati@apn-89-223-187-118.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 17:04:39 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:04:46 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 17:05:44 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 17:08:04 white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:47 slyrus annotated #78937 "another backtrace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78937#2 17:09:16 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-197-121-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 17:14:26 -!- d3mag0gu3 [n=a-grever@nat/microsoft/x-81102ddf7e756ff2] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:14:54 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:15:22 -!- deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:15:30 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-28-175.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:11 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-204-145-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:18:51 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:19:28 borism [n=boris@195-50-206-87-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 17:20:12 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-71f101646ccd0ea1] has joined #lisp 17:23:46 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:25:36 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-197-121-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:27:44 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-fb3bad51e7deb5e2] has joined #lisp 17:30:12 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:30:40 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:31:14 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:31 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 17:31:43 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:46 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:32:44 deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:31 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:38:41 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:14 wow, while an ftp request in the Gnome's file browser is blocking, all symbols on the desktop vanish (i.e. it's blocking for all user input it seems) 17:39:24 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 17:39:25 feels like Emacs 17:40:01 Well, there have been attempts to use Emacs as a desktop/window manager. 17:40:07 -!- lichtblau [n=user@wallstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:41:47 JY1 [n=Hack2008@119.123.139.233] has joined #lisp 17:42:04 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 17:44:58 pure insanity: http://www.nongnu.org/xwem/ 17:46:51 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 17:47:36 xinit `which emacs` and you're done 17:49:46 I think it would be interesting to do that and try to pawn it off on someone as a "LispOS" 17:50:13 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:13 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:51:08 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:53:04 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@80.250.159.240] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:54:17 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:42 -!- willb [n=wibenton@144.92.98.65] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:54:59 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 18:01:34 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-146-122.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:02:37 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 18:02:42 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:04:31 Good evening. 18:06:05 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:06:29 oudeis [n=oudeis@77.124.71.204] has joined #lisp 18:06:49 jamin1001 [n=jamin100@38.98.212.230] has joined #lisp 18:07:50 hello 18:07:57 hello jamin1001 18:08:21 would anyone be willing to help a complete lisp neophyte 18:08:35 just ask 18:08:38 jamin1001: in #lisp, you just ask your questions. 18:08:40 jamin1001: most of the non-lurkers, I imagine 18:09:00 jamin1001: you will find out if anyone is willing and/or able to answer them. 18:09:44 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-146-28.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:12:47 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:12:59 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 18:13:09 josemanuel [n=josemanu@180.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:13:56 ok thanks 18:14:25 so... no question? 18:15:06 oh, the suspense... 18:15:30 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@180.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 18:16:26 -!- prabuinet [n=prabu@117.193.200.3] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:17:46 I think this must be the first time I am willing to *beg* someone to ask a question. 18:18:33 -!- alanhaggai [n=alanhagg@p3m/member/alanhaggai] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:19:31 *beach* goes to process email instead. 18:21:38 I could ask a question instead. A question like "why does sigchld almost always occur inside of a sigtrap, or what might be the purpose of the sigtraps?" 18:23:24 *hefner* probably isn't reading his trace correctly 18:24:31 sorry i actually answered it myself, so not worth it 18:24:40 but...i will ask something else if you'd like 18:24:41 Aww! 18:25:29 haha :D 18:25:48 ok, i am using a 3d software tool called Esperient. It has lisp support, but I don't know what "flavor" of clisp it is. 18:25:57 it used setq which i found is identical to setf 18:26:11 but seems to be missing some basic things like 'let' 18:26:37 *beach* sees the explanation of what clisp is coming up. 18:26:46 jamin1001: I imagine it isn't any flavor of common lisp OR clisp 18:27:02 minion: please tell jamin about clisp! 18:27:02 jamin: have a look at clisp: CLISP is a Common Lisp implementation by Bruno Haible of Karlsruhe University and Michael Stoll of Munich University, both in Germany. http://www.cliki.net/clisp 18:28:05 ok. i realize CLISP is the wrong word. 18:28:14 it is some implemenation of Common Lisp 18:30:10 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6C5A8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 18:30:18 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:30:33 is there any common/typical subsets of CL (Common Lisp), i.e., what is usually included in a "basic" CL implementation on a given platform 18:30:51 subsets of CL are very rare, even though the spec provides for them 18:31:11 could you tell us why you think this is a CL at all? 18:31:45 moocow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has joined #lisp 18:32:19 well, i sort of wonder the same, but setq isnt a schemers chooice, is it? 18:32:37 hefner: dunno if this is due to mega1's recent changes or not, but that simple loop run-program now reliably triggers a failure in 50 iterations or fewer, often much fewer, like 3. 18:32:43 hypno: that would be set! 18:32:50 the refrence for the SDK mentions "Guy L. Steele Jr. _Common LISP: the Language_. Digital Press. 1984." 18:33:04 maybe it's AutoLisp or an imitation thereof? 18:33:11 ok, so maybe it IS one of those rare CL subsets 18:33:12 slyrus: these are changes newer than the current release on sourceforge? 18:33:22 or...if it doesn't have LET, then it's more likely somebody's half-baked notion of lisp 18:33:56 and it has setq, princ, atom, defunc 18:34:17 hefner: no, mega1's changes from 8 hours or so ago. I just rebuilt from the git HEAD. 18:34:27 jamin1001: `defunc'? Really? 18:35:01 sorry defun 18:35:18 sounds newer than the last release to me. 18:35:23 it could very well be half-baked, since it is more of a convenience interface to the tool, not meant for full-blown apps 18:35:29 jamin1001: does it have DEFMACRO and LAMBDA? 18:35:42 given those, LET is trivial :) 18:36:21 doesn't look like it 18:36:29 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250035.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:36:50 it seems a little hard to believe that anybody would make a lisp without LET these days. 18:37:05 i am able to write recursive functions and stuff, but looks like it is missing what i see in common lisp tutorials 18:37:11 'these days' being the last 25-30 years :) 18:37:57 minion: tell jamin1001 about ansi-test 18:37:58 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``ansi-test''. 18:38:13 minion: you suck 18:38:14 what's up? 18:38:21 jamin1001: common-lisp.net/project/ansi-test 18:38:31 hefner: ah, you mean release, as in binary release? yeah, I never use those... 18:38:34 that should tell you how much of CL you actually have. 18:38:57 jamin1001: given a reasonable subset of CL, the rest is usually implementable in CL itself. 18:39:16 jamin1001: that said, without defmacro and let, i would hesitate to call it a CL. 18:39:38 I note that esperient.com's FAQ has nothing about CL, but only mentions "Lisp" 18:39:47 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:40:03 oh 18:40:05 "Creator Lisp" 18:40:08 *hefner* grumbles about debian breaking the name resolver, ssh, cvs, and probably most everything else 18:40:24 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:40:50 jamin1001: you're not dealing with Common Lisp at all 18:40:58 JY2 [n=Hack2008@119.123.139.233] has joined #lisp 18:41:10 ok well that's good to know 18:41:38 Kinda weird to support an extension language with no obvious web documentation 18:42:41 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:43:11 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:31 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.243.44] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:43:42 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.243.44] has joined #lisp 18:43:59 maybe it is just some kind of lisp implementation with a reference to teh CL book for good measure 18:44:50 Probably 18:44:54 jao [n=jao@37.Red-79-156-141.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:28 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 18:46:37 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-175.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:48:38 willb [n=wibenton@144.92.98.52] has joined #lisp 18:48:40 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:49:42 hefner: fwiw, 1.0.27.7 exhibits the rapid failures as well. 1.0.27.2 still fails, but takes much longer to do so. 18:51:01 vnwarrior [n=quassel@122.163.196.186] has joined #lisp 18:51:54 -!- vnwarrior [n=quassel@122.163.196.186] has quit [Client Quit] 18:52:08 vnwarrior [n=quassel@122.163.196.186] has joined #lisp 18:52:32 -!- moocow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has quit [Success] 18:52:47 kpreid: autolisp is an actual CL subset? 18:52:54 moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:31 1.0.27? good lord. the version on the web page is 1.0.25 18:53:33 -!- deliana [n=deliana@147.210.246.189] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:54:24 hefner: that's so two months ago... 18:55:18 practically ancient 18:56:40 maybe this explains it: "AutoLISP has such a strong following that other CAD application vendors added it to their own products" 18:56:53 levy_ [n=ati@apn-94-44-13-243.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 18:56:54 -!- JY1 [n=Hack2008@119.123.139.233] has quit [Success] 18:57:00 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-71f101646ccd0ea1] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:57:55 attila_lendvai: poke 18:58:06 hello mathrick 18:58:26 attila_lendvai: couple of things about stefil 18:58:46 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:55 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:59:00 attila_lendvai: will tell in a minute, if you don't mind, I just got worked into juggling several conversations at the same time :) 19:00:00 *slyrus_* goes retry, builds 1.0.25 19:00:04 retro... 19:00:10 mathrick: i'll be more or less around for the next few hours 19:04:53 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:50 -!- levy [n=ati@apn-89-223-187-118.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:06:06 hrm... dunno if this is a bug or a feature, but 1.0.27.2 fails to build 1.0.25 19:06:09 -!- jao [n=jao@37.Red-79-156-141.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:09:54 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-2533ea24083fdac2] has joined #lisp 19:11:36 droogie [n=user@88.238.199.19] has joined #lisp 19:14:49 -!- vnwarrior [n=quassel@122.163.196.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:15:16 jao [n=jao@242.Red-79-155-246.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:47 rsynnott: no 19:21:01 rsynnott: I was suggesting that it was a non-common lisp rather than a cl subset at the time 19:21:15 ah 19:21:51 <_3b> tsuru: you see that i got it rendering color last night? 19:23:56 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:26:18 <_3b> tsuru: and do you still have debug turned off? :) 19:29:27 Ragnaroek [i=54a66686@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-57852be105a16e64] has joined #lisp 19:30:15 rdd [n=user@c83-250-153-45.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:30:27 sandgorgon_ [n=sandgorg@122.163.196.186] has joined #lisp 19:30:47 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-5f7a1e7b6251c1e9] has joined #lisp 19:30:58 slyrus_: there's a vector-push-extend with an extension of 0. 19:31:35 IIRC, there's a single occurence; grep should find it (or backport the patch) 19:31:57 -!- sandgorgon_ [n=sandgorg@122.163.196.186] has quit [Client Quit] 19:32:23 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:34:37 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@77.124.71.204] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:37:56 -!- rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-fb3bad51e7deb5e2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:38:24 -!- rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:38:36 rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 19:40:44 mega1 [n=mega@53d82e04.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 19:42:28 ejs [n=eugen@104-76-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:50 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.196.186] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:42:53 -!- jao [n=jao@242.Red-79-155-246.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:44:05 -!- scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit ["reboot"] 19:47:43 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:47:48 -!- ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has quit ["leaving"] 19:49:09 oudeis [n=oudeis@77.124.71.204] has joined #lisp 19:49:17 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:28 attila_lendvai: okay then 19:54:05 attila_lendvai: I run into the need to have fixtures organised into trees, in a sort of opposite to test trees way 19:54:54 ie. I have a main suite A, subsuite B, in it subsuite C with tests T1...T10 19:56:41 now, the whole of A needs a fixture, fixA, similarly B needs fixB, and C needs fixC. Individual tests might need additional fixtures, but it's assumed that T1 to T10 all need all of fixA, fixB and fixC 19:57:14 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:57:49 mindstab [n=dan@janus.mindstab.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:51 attila_lendvai: the idea is that if I could specify whole-suite fixtures, and inter-fixture dependencies, I could run, say, T7 alone and have it invoke fixA, fixB and fixC automatically 19:58:15 but if I run the whole of A, it would know the fixture ran already 19:59:16 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-2946.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:01:43 Hey does anyone know what the lisp equivalent of python and ruby's pack() and unpack() methods are for packing binary data into a string? 20:02:12 why on earth would you want to do that? 20:02:17 -!- mjonsson [n=mjonsson@66-234-42-75.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:02:40 mindstab: just use binary streams! 20:02:57 writing a client for a protocol in lisp and it's a 'binary protocol' and the python and ruby code i'm reading use pack() 20:03:07 oh yeah? 20:03:40 well, that's awful. I'm surprised creeping uncodization doesn't regularly break such code 20:03:50 mindstab: well, if it's a binary protocol, you wouldn't want to use strings. 20:03:56 Yes, Common Lisp is a full featured language, contrarily to the botched attempts that pass for programmign languages nowadays. 20:04:10 pjb: well put! 20:04:35 haha 20:04:52 mathrick: i think you can invoke fixtures from other fixtures and invoke fixtures from a suit (they all are mere functions). i think that partially solves that, although only if you invoke the whole suite. what i would to is to simple create a deftestA, deftestB, etc macros that add all the fixtures that are needed in that context. then you get the flexibility to invoke a single test from the deepest point in the suite tree 20:05:30 mathrick: otherwise i'm open for ideas/patches how to support fixture combination in a more sophisticated way, but only if the additional complexity is justified... 20:05:48 scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 20:05:50 attila_lendvai: well, I hacked a bit of that in already, but I thought it really should go into stefil itself 20:05:58 mathrick: i need to take care of some work right now, i'll give it more thought a bit later 20:06:09 attila_lendvai: also, I'd like to be able to assign tests to multiple suites 20:07:07 there seems like there was a bit of that planned already, since I can see you avoid re-running tests unnecessarily, but the parent slot is singular and prevents tests from belonging to many suites 20:07:27 mathrick: you can call tests as simple functions and suits are simple functions too, by default having a body which calls the test that you have assigned to them 20:07:36 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:07:43 mathrick: you can invoke any test from any other... it's a defun... 20:08:04 beach: if the ruby code for write_byte looks like trans.write([byte].pack('c')) what would I do then? 20:08:28 mindstab: you need to understand the "pack" format in python first. then implement it in CL. 20:08:29 mathrick: yep, suite's just happen to have a default body calling each of its test, unless otherwise specified 20:08:41 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:08:53 mindstab: I don't know Ruby. Sorry! 20:09:05 mindstab: (write-byte (char-code #\c) stream) 20:09:07 hypno: ah ok, so there is nothing like it already, ok, thanks! 20:09:33 fe[nl]ix: ah thank you! 20:09:37 attila_lendvai: yep, I've looked at that. I actually have one patch in my local stefil copy that moves the test for reruns inside RUN-TEST-BODY so that it can be invoked easier 20:10:15 since all of my defsuites happen through an additional macro that inserts extra forms into body 20:10:21 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@77.124.71.204] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:10:43 mindstab: but mind you that that code can't be generalized to any character 20:12:00 fe[nl]ix: no? i can't just replace the #\c with a variable? 20:12:30 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:12:59 with unicode, there are characters whose code point is larger than 255 20:12:59 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:13:00 manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:13:14 mindstab: of course you can, but Common Lisp characters don't have the limitations that they do in lesser languages. 20:14:01 the same problem applies in python's pack, at least 20:14:13 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 20:14:14 mindstab: you can use (write-sequence (babel:string-to-octets ) ) 20:14:16 (I don't think ruby really has a concept of unicode, or didn't last I looked) 20:14:36 rsynnott: a feature! 20:15:47 jfactor [n=jfactor@student166-162.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 20:15:49 Ruby 1.9 is supposed to have unicode, I think 20:16:15 rsynnott: not really, it has a very hacky support through a library 20:18:15 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:18:16 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 20:18:59 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1269.versanet.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:19:24 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 20:20:06 benny [n=benny@i577A0B2F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:22:17 Horror of horrors! Ruby doesn't have native support for Unicode?!? Does this mean that Ruby is dead(tm)? 20:23:02 tmh: yes. 20:23:20 tmh: definitely! Just like Common Lisp! 20:24:58 would you mind if i ask what makes a code more lispy? recursiveness in functions, abstraction layers etc? or is it related to some common patterns? 20:25:12 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:25:14 droogie: using CLOS. 20:25:17 droogie: There is no lispy. 20:25:29 There is no code. 20:25:36 minimizing bullshit. 20:25:41 i don't know lispy but i know what i like. 20:25:41 heh! 20:25:54 I know lispy when I see it! 20:25:55 hmm: then i should stich with architectural design :) 20:26:04 stich? 20:26:11 stick 20:26:13 sorry :) 20:26:26 fe[nl]ix: thanks, i got what i wanted: (write (trans protocol) (code-char (ldb (byte 8 0) byte-var)))), and it enforces one byte length :) 20:26:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@104-76-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:26:38 tmh: in fairness, nor does php, and it is (sadly) far from dead 20:26:40 I consider Lisp's unpopularity caused mostly from the problems it has inherited from academia, though it's an unpopular opinion among lispers (who are mostly academics) 20:26:47 beach: sorry for my new keyboard and bad english 20:26:47 Hmm, reminds of the description of a tensor. "X is a tensor when it transforms like a tensor." or some similar. 20:27:04 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:27:05 droogie: Software architecture might look very different with CLOS method combinations and generic functions that you would obtain with some lesser languages like Java and C++. 20:27:07 mindstab: it does! 20:27:21 it may not do what you want if it happens to be a >127 char, though, of course 20:27:41 mindstab: and what if you get a #\ ? 20:28:29 fe[nl]ix: mindstab probably thinks that that kind of buggy behavior is normal, given the languages he has been using. 20:28:46 ha ouch 20:29:22 mindstab: what are you trying to do? If you want to write a byte, then just (write-byte byte stream)! 20:29:36 well, python will behave with similar indignation to cl in such a circumstance 20:30:23 mindstab: the correct behaviour is this: take a string, convert it to a vector of octets according to some external format, then write that vector on the stream 20:30:26 rsynnott: I am guessing there are alot fewer Pythonista (proportionally) who know Common Lisp that Lispers who know Python. 20:30:44 *tic_* is one. 20:30:57 probably 20:31:02 mindstab: try: (with-open-file (out "/tmp/test" :direction :output :if-exists :supersede :if-does-not-exist :create :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) (write-sequence #(65 66 67 68 10) out)) 20:31:10 (and I loathe single dispatch every day of the week) 20:31:17 I haven't used Python in years, so despite "knowing" it, I don't think I'd consider myself proficient. 20:31:17 fe[nl]ix: And that can be done by opening the stream with some appropriate external representation, and then just writing the characters. 20:31:21 pjb: I'm writing a protocol level part that interfaces with a transport layer, the transport layer does the transmision and may or may not operate on a stream (shared memory is another option) so the protocol just has to take input, like a byte or int, convert it to the format it wants as a string and pass it to the transport layer. can write-byte work on strings? 20:31:29 beach: thanks, i think i haven't dug enough to see the real characteristics of cl yet. 20:31:35 beach: that too 20:31:51 mindstab: strings aren't guaranteed to be made up of bytes 20:32:00 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [Client Quit] 20:32:03 mindstab: you have to ask yourself (or rather, ask the protocol specification) what encoding you want for your strings. 20:32:13 so you might want to consider using an external format like utf-8/16/32 20:32:14 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 20:32:26 (though no-one really uses 32 these days when they can help it, it seems) 20:32:48 then, as mentionned above, you can use a library such as babyl, or implementation specific functions such as #+clisp ext:convert-string-to-bytes to convert your strings into byte vectors in a given encoding. 20:33:05 droogie: You'll be surprised. I have a great example where, in Java, you cannot do better in V2 than calling up your client and announcing that the millions of lines of code he/she has written needs to be modified, whereas in Common Lisp you do it transparently. 20:33:16 or for maximum perplexity, use code pages! 20:33:25 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-188-098-215-238.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:45 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:34:04 jao [n=jao@185.Red-88-15-113.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:29 strings don't exist! they're an illusion! 20:34:35 droogie: This particular example relies on the existance of :before, :after, and :around methods of Common Lisp. 20:34:38 only superstrings. 20:34:40 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:48 and branes 20:34:52 nor characters. 20:35:09 beach: which Java has now STOLEN 20:35:20 under the guise of AOP 20:35:29 then it's not really Java but a pre-processor? 20:35:40 java people prefer to believe that this is a highly modern exciting new invention 20:35:44 no one really uses AOP, do they? I thought that was just something douchebag bloggers talked about to seem hip. 20:35:46 and AOP's out anyway, all hail COP. 20:35:48 tic_: yep, suppose 20:35:52 hefner, :D 20:35:52 rsynnott: Another evidence that all languages asymptotically converge toward Common Lisp? 20:35:59 tic_: what does the 'C' stand for? 20:36:10 Context 20:36:11 ? 20:36:11 rsynnott, context. check out Context{L,J} 20:36:13 ah 20:36:25 oh, yep, saw some mention of that a while back 20:36:26 hefner: no, no. aop is really convenient for a variety of tasks such as logging, inserting logging statments, and controlling logging 20:36:28 It's better than crunchy peanut butter! 20:36:50 tic_: COP FTW! 20:37:01 drewc, TLA FGJ! 20:37:16 *tic_* *really* needs to take a serious look at ContextL at some point. 20:37:17 COP is really just 'dymnamic scoped everything' 20:37:31 AOP people also say it's useful for security 20:37:37 It's both totally horrifying and a wet dream. 20:37:46 *hefner* didn't realize java was so popular with lumberjacks 20:37:47 if you can understand why dynamically scoped variables are a good thing, then you can understand why contextl is a good thing. 20:37:50 foom, it's useful for aspects. if you can imagine "security" as an aspect, then yeah. 20:38:02 drewc, I don't really think I can. 20:38:11 ah, yes, the great Verity Stob makes fun of the logging thing slightly here: http://www.ddj.com/architect/184405326 20:38:14 tic_: the reader is a good example 20:38:21 think that article is the only reason I know about AOP 20:38:26 tic_: I'm afraid "useful for aspects" really doesn't mean anything to me. :p 20:38:29 drewc, in what way? (got an article or such?) 20:38:43 foom, me neither! 20:39:02 tic_: the reader/printer both have way too many special variables around them... contextl lets youi encapsulate those specials in an object. 20:39:19 tic_: the contextl papers are the best bet, plus 3 years of real work use or so. 20:39:45 drewc, oic. thanks. I'll grab the papers later on, then. 20:40:17 tic_: (dletf (((readtable-base *readtable) :preserve)) vs (let ((*read-base ...)) is the essence of what i'm saying though. 20:40:40 why i lost my trailing *'s there i dunno 20:41:08 c|mell [n=cmell@y192003.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 20:41:35 smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has joined #lisp 20:42:24 ynamically scoped slot-values are one of many excellent features that contextl provides. If you take CLOS + contexl, you can do side-effect free OO of a sort. 20:42:39 telebyte_ [n=t@77-58-154-13.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:43:22 HG` [n=wells@91.111.13.16] has joined #lisp 20:44:37 actually, now that it has first-class dynamic environments, objects themselves don't need to store state at all. 20:45:43 Hmm. 20:45:49 what else to you need objects for, hmm? 20:46:02 cmm-: something to specialize methods on. 20:46:33 and their identity) 20:46:35 drewc, I lost you on (readtable-base *read-table*) :/ 20:46:49 but I think it's better I just read the papers instead of nagging you. 20:47:14 tic_: yeah, read the papers, it should all make sense. Feel free to nag me if you have any questions. 20:47:23 drewc, you're much too helpful. 20:47:27 (readtable-case *readtable*) ? 20:47:45 we aim to please! (brought to you by http:/tech.coop) 20:47:48 er 20:47:49 // 20:48:12 stassats`: are you familiar with contextl? 20:48:29 nope 20:48:37 a-ha! /now/ it makes sense, thanks to stassats`. 20:49:10 oh .. base/case typo 20:49:11 Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-25.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:19 drewc, so everything that can possibly be modified by calling the setf on readtable-case will be captured in the dletf properly? 20:50:01 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a66686@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-57852be105a16e64] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 20:50:28 tic_: yes, but only in the environment delimited by the DLETF 20:50:43 if you chose, you can capture/re-instance that environment. 20:50:51 re-instate sorry 20:50:59 drewc, yeah, exactly. that is nifty. 20:51:18 but I'm not sure why you'd use it other than to sort-of make things side-effect free 20:51:23 like a jail. 20:51:43 (but I probably have a too limitited a imagination :) 20:51:46 tic_: how about to get rid of the *read-foo* and *print-foo* specials for one :) 20:52:12 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 20:52:15 drewc, well, that's more like ducktape & steel wire on top of a broken solution. How about clean uses? 20:52:26 also, contextl introduces first class 'contexts' 20:52:31 s/solution/implementation;s/uses/solution/ 20:52:50 so we can say (with-active-layer (standard-io-syntax) ....) 20:53:07 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:36 and the print/read bindings usually preformed in with-standard-io-syntax is encapsulated in the 'context' of the 'standard-io-syntax' layer 20:54:05 Mhm 20:54:12 tic_: the clean use is something like a reader with a lot of bindings that could/should be dynamic 20:54:26 dtangren [n=dtangren@69.176.201.226] has joined #lisp 20:54:30 so it sets up a bunch of environments you can easily swap between. like execution contexts 20:54:33 ? 20:54:39 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@69.176.201.226] has quit [Client Quit] 20:54:42 drewc, *nod* 20:54:45 that's a big part of it, yeah 20:54:52 you can also compose them 20:55:11 also, classes may have different slots in different layers 20:55:22 methods can specialize on the layer, etc. 20:55:36 Hm. And the differetn environments could be composed to do things Differently compared to the standard behaviour. Like setting a (*debug* t) variable here, a (*security* nil), etc. 20:55:43 bingo. 20:56:01 okay, methods specializing on layers is too much for me. aren 20:56:18 aren't those also captured? maybe not. When would you use that? 20:56:53 classes with different slots? so you have different defclass:es in different layers, event though it's really the same class? 20:56:56 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-25.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:57:02 yup 20:57:18 the example being adding a 'manager' slot to a 20:57:27 'person' object in the 'employment' layer 20:57:38 Hm. I can see how that's useful, so you don't have to contaminate the class with whatever functionality you need for everything you could possibly need, even though it's just a corner-case situation. 20:57:43 Mhm 20:57:47 right. 20:58:03 why not have employee a subclass of person you might be thinking? 20:58:08 Yeah! 20:58:11 because i am not always at work. 20:58:17 Haha. 20:58:20 *hefner* thinks drewc is deluded 20:58:34 work is a context where i have a manager, home is not. 20:58:38 unless you count the wife 20:58:56 actually.. i don't have a manager at work either ... 20:58:58 Because I may be employee twice, or both employee and employer. Then it becomes a mess with multiple inheritance. 20:59:10 pjb: yes! 20:59:35 drewc, s/Haha/what about the modify-class-of-instance-function?/ 21:00:08 I mean, here you have all the power of CLOS at your fingertips, and instead of using a separate 'role' argument to dispatch doubly on, you buy into some baroque dynamic scoping scheme involving a lot of MOP magic that no one understands 21:00:27 hefner: you seem to understand the magic just fine. 21:00:35 it's simply a hidden 'role' argument. 21:00:52 so you're adding, uhm, single multiple dispatch. 21:00:54 what do you need the magic for, then? roll it yourself? =po 21:01:05 *tic_* is confused! both hefner and drewc make good points. 21:01:33 -!- JY2 [n=Hack2008@119.123.139.233] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:02:05 hefner: try to explain why multiple dispatch and inheritence is a good thing in #python and you'll feel my current level of 'sigh'. 21:02:16 drewc, I did. I was almost kicked out. 21:02:40 hefner: you can emulate dynamic scope by passing a stack on bindings around as well... 21:02:47 (thought I was trolling. "why would you ever want such a bizarre thing as this 'multiple dispatch' you speak of?") 21:02:52 why have it built in and tested/debugged? 21:03:06 didn't Python have multiple inheritance? 21:03:10 of bindings* 21:03:13 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:03:18 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:03:24 p_l: no idea actually, i was picking a :) 21:03:28 drewc: perhaps I am overestimating the amount of magic involved in the ContextL implementation. 21:03:42 It does. But I don't think you can specify the BC resolution order. 21:03:49 hefner: indeed you might be, it's really quite simple. 21:03:56 no magic, it's all pure Lisp! 21:03:58 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:04:00 drewc: due to Python's object implementation, you can do quite weird things, though far from CLOS 21:04:12 Night guys! Thanks for the explanation, drewc! It made me fuzzy and warm inside. 21:04:21 hefner: most of the MOP magic is for 'layers', which are important, but if you don't need the advanced features, are just 'roles' as you put it. 21:04:35 tic_: glad to help :) 21:05:03 yeah, I guess adding slots gets hairy. 21:05:48 actually, it's not that hairy at all, now that i think about it. The implementation is super clean, and one can learn a lot about CLOS and the mop by browsing it. 21:06:18 add/removing slots is simply methods on SLOT-EXISTS-P, SLOT-BOUNDP and SLOT-VALUE really. 21:06:37 sounds like an awful kludge to me. 21:06:43 the slots are still there in the storage vector. 21:07:55 hefner: well, after 3 years or so of using contextl in my work, i miss it when it's gone. i understand, as a lisper, how hard it is for others to 'get' something like this, so i'm not going to argue with you. 21:09:27 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@216.165.144.151] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:09:42 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:09:54 hell, PG wrote books about lisp without ever understanding CLOS! :) 21:10:32 *drewc* can't leave it alone :) 21:10:39 example from the real world : 21:10:55 i have these objects called 'descriptions' which describe how to display an object. 21:10:56 drewc: I don't think there's enough information to presume he didn't understand. 21:11:02 Curiously Like Oppressive Socialism? 21:11:07 amos__ [n=amos@cpc3-bolt9-0-0-cust70.manc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 21:11:42 you can display objects in many contexts (repl, html, gui). 21:12:12 but some attributes of the description only make sense in certain contexts .. like CSS-CLASS, for example. 21:12:54 telebyte__ [n=t@gprs37.swisscom-mobile.ch] has joined #lisp 21:12:59 so, the CSS-CLASS slot only exists in the description if the HTML layer is active. 21:13:25 this catches a lot of errors that simply including the slot always would not. 21:14:43 before contextL i used ALISTS for this sort of thing, and it was a lot kludgey-er than the contexl approach, believe! 21:15:51 -!- tombom [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 21:16:17 drewc: you're almost describing a prototype-based object system here 21:16:26 fe[nl]ix: it's very close. 21:16:40 the ideas are similar anyway. 21:17:42 -!- telebyte__ [n=t@gprs37.swisscom-mobile.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 21:19:18 -!- telebyte_ [n=t@77-58-154-13.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:19:24 drewc, fe[nl]ix -- hi! 21:19:37 tmh: graham seems to talk a lot about 'objects', and missing the boat on generic functions. Arc is crippled enough in this regard tomake me assume he does not understand how CLOS is used by CLOS using lispers :) 21:19:41 Fare! 21:19:45 hello Fare 21:20:18 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-68-103.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 21:21:27 -!- levy_ [n=ati@apn-94-44-13-243.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 21:22:41 -!- amos__ [n=amos@cpc3-bolt9-0-0-cust70.manc.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:24:00 drewc: surely it was more that he disliked it? 21:24:13 -!- mega1 [n=mega@53d82e04.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:24:25 well, yeep, arc is a bad sign 21:24:27 Davidbrcz_ [n=david@ANantes-151-1-69-51.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:24:34 but it could just be personal preference 21:24:52 (arc being basically things done according to his personal preference rather than for any other reason anyway) 21:25:06 rsynnott: it could, and you're right about arc. 21:25:48 i think the fact that we don't know what's preference and whats not is one of my major beefs with PG. 21:26:09 you claim he is not a rational actor? his personal preference is not aligned with reality? 21:26:25 it's clear that his work is very much based on his preference, though 21:26:30 hefner: :D, exactly. 21:26:45 it's basically impossible that he doesn't understand cond, for instance, but he barely if ever mentions it 21:26:57 mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 21:26:59 ditto loop 21:27:01 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:27:10 (though that's probably a more common prejudice :) ) 21:27:22 rsynnott: are you sure it's impossible? He also doesn't seem to understand iteration or function/value namespace separation :) 21:27:48 koning_robot [n=aap@e244075.upc-e.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 21:28:14 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 21:28:31 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:28:44 hmm, so do i. so this pg is a newbie to? 21:28:49 -!- koning_r1bot [n=aap@e244075.upc-e.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:28:51 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 21:29:41 i mean you really mention of paul graham like a newbie (: 21:29:49 of course he isnt, but his code and writing feels "scheme" to me. 21:30:53 ... I think that needs to go into fortunes :) 21:31:14 fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:20 fph pasted "babel-encodings?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78980 21:32:26 hypno: i think so, via the limited knowlegde i have since i haven't read his books just some of his papers etc. but i still think a schemers approach to common lisp is a benefit, since the whole other community is pushing it the other way :) 21:33:18 hypno: i don't mean he is fixing something, just a balance of approaches 21:33:34 it's widely known that only a vast industrial conspiracy has held back the genetically superior scheme programmers 21:33:54 :) 21:33:57 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has left #lisp 21:34:11 haskell, too 21:34:14 I am responsible for the Sierra cell, we have held the flood back for 100 years now! 21:34:33 droogie: i doubt it. i suggest you try writing a complete application in the "pg-scheme-style" in cl. 21:34:48 or, better, in arc ;) 21:35:03 newlisp! 21:35:28 droogie: it's this anal fixation of reinventing the wheel, only using small fundamental primitivies that lacks the ability of scale. common lisp isnt really like that. 21:35:28 *rsynnott* hisses 21:35:30 Does PAREDIT interfere with INDENT-TABS-MODE? 21:35:47 it always reminded me strongly of php 21:36:45 tmh: you can't indent lisp with only tabs (unless you have tiny tab stops). Works fine with spaces everywehre. 21:36:54 hmm, the lemonodor guy seems to be writing a clone of lucene 21:37:07 people love doing that, for some reason 21:37:07 rsynnott: montezuma's been around for a while. 21:37:08 it reminds me more of simply choosing functional style over others. I can use both in CL, so... 21:37:10 I think we could use some small fundamental primitives for concurrency. 21:37:13 rsynnott: wrote more like. 21:37:19 you'd think it's exactly the sort of thing you would not want to clone... 21:37:37 mogunus: you mean like threads, locks and condition variables? 21:37:42 mogunus: like mutexes, semaphores and condition variables? 21:37:44 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:38:04 something like the pi-calculus or the actor model 21:38:25 we don't hear of new software like mirai nowadays, so i don't exacly know where we left the wheel but you're right about reinventing part :) 21:38:29 pkhuong: thanks, I'm trying to set my lisp mode so that tabs are converted to spaces, but I seem to be using the incorrect hook. I thought that PAREDIT might be setting it despite my efforts. 21:38:43 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:38:45 what is mirai? 21:38:49 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:53 mogunus, what's the status on your pi-calc thingie? 21:39:03 rsynnott: nichimen mirai 21:39:15 rsynnott, a lisp graphics thingie descended from Symbolics 21:39:16 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:39:34 ah 21:40:21 rsynnott: a complete subdivision modeling tool with several integrated workspaces, working on top of allegro cl 21:40:22 Fare: reading more research papers. decided to implement a pi-calc using bordeaux-threads, and then implement a programming language on top of that. looked at oz and pict for examples. 21:40:51 mogunus, are you sure you want pi-calc and not actors? 21:40:59 mogunus: what would be the benefits of that instead of say a good event system (say kqueue) with kernel threads? 21:41:02 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:41:12 buzzword compliance 21:41:12 pi-calc is NASTY when it comes to multiple distributed listeners to a same port 21:41:30 mogunus, what about hacking Erlang-in-Lisp ? 21:41:33 rolly1975 [n=rory@026.d.001.dav.iprimus.net.au] has joined #lisp 21:41:43 :D 21:42:08 loop macro and state machines (: 21:42:55 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-126-104.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:43:10 hypno: it seems like it would be easier to program with 21:43:23 and reason about 21:44:03 mogunus, what about implementing EiL on top of iolib's event system? 21:44:34 on slightly related note, what about getting a connector for erlang cluster net? ;) 21:45:04 Fare: I haven't really looked at erlang/actors enough yet at all. pi-calc was easier for me to pick up quickly because of a bunch of work i've done with lambda-calc. 21:45:22 mogunus, pi-calc is nasty 21:45:24 mogunus: not quite sure i follow you there. we are talking about implementation primitives, not user exposed apis. why is a nice server framework with dsl out of the question? 21:45:25 Fare: I will probably end upo hacking on erlang-i-l. reading the manual now. 21:45:47 look at actors -- or in ML parlance, look at the join-calculus (equivalent to actors, but with types, etc.) 21:45:48 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-25.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:45:53 (and pure) 21:46:05 mogunus, EiL is currently a crock 21:46:09 Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-25.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:34 mogunus: there's very little in common between practical implementation of the lambda calc (or chemical machines, I expect) and its elegant theoretical descriptions. 21:46:34 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 21:46:38 but if you add some support for some good call/cc library and iolib, you can do great things. 21:46:46 Fare: that's... unfortunate. hmm. 21:47:24 pkhuong: well, no, but the elegant theory of it has made programming in lisp very fun for me. 21:47:26 mogunus, if you're into it, between EiL and philip-jose, I think I know how to do the rest of it 21:49:30 Fare: I will need to educate myself as to the erlang and join-calc first 21:49:38 Fare: EiL is a waste of time 21:50:10 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:21 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:52:54 -!- Davidbrcz_ [n=david@ANantes-151-1-69-51.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:55:35 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:56:23 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Success] 21:56:38 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 21:58:06 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:59:14 _3b: still there? 21:59:54 <_3b> yep, trying to figure out flash clipping :/ 22:00:16 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [] 22:00:21 _3b: ah, I missed your message from last night what was the deal with color? 22:00:55 <_3b> tsuru: few problems, see my fork on github for my current code 22:01:06 <_3b> (still broken in lots of ways, but draws the scene more or less now) 22:01:16 <_3b> main problem i think is that your octree is broken 22:01:26 hahaha... yah I was afraid of that 22:01:42 <_3b> you don't return the right values from intersect, you drop the values you do return halfway through, and you don't put most of the tris in it in the first place :) 22:01:43 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:01:47 Tordek [n=tordek@host87.190-137-248.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 22:02:07 -!- joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:02:10 i want to create very primitive 3d objects, is it easy to do in lispbuilder-sdl? 22:02:12 <_3b> also, turn on debugging/safety... i get obvious errors when i try to run your code 22:02:23 fe[nl]ix, how so? 22:02:24 <_3b> droogie: cl-opengl works fine with lispbuilder-sdl 22:02:38 <_3b> droogie: or you can do some math and render them with 2d primitives 22:03:03 _3b: alright, I haven't been able to do much yet today was planning on it after work 22:03:12 sid__ [n=chatzill@ip68-3-103-196.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:29 <_3b> tsuru: no rush, just wanted to make sure you knew about the changes :) 22:03:55 thanks :) 22:04:10 _3b: hmm, i think first choice will be better because probably both will take the same time and at least i can learn a little part of the library by first:) 22:04:43 *_3b* is tempted to try to write a closer-to-the-original cl port of that minilight thing, looks fun :) 22:04:53 and wouldn't you know github is down 22:05:01 :) 22:05:07 _3b: by the way, what does "3b" stands for? 22:05:10 somehow I thought you'd be tempted 22:05:11 <_3b> droogie: yeah, you will get better results from GL (and better potential for improvement) 22:05:33 <_3b> droogie: b is my initial (both of them) and 3 is the suffix on my name 22:05:48 I was going full CLOS first then going to try profiling down to more efficient structs where needed 22:06:01 <_3b> heh, yay for high-uptime free services :) 22:06:32 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-197-101.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:06:39 Hi I am trying to write a prolog interpreter in LISP... I have to design a variable renaming function. The I/P is a list containing function names and there arguments like From: '( (loves (? x)) if (mother-of (? x) )) TO THIS: ((loves (? x001)) if (mother-of (? x001)) 22:06:56 I can use the gensym function for renaming 22:07:26 <_3b> sid__: so what is stopping you? 22:07:29 But The list contains atoms as well aslists... i am unable to loop over them and 22:07:31 _3b: hmm, the translation "3 dimension" is "3 boyut" (3b) in turkish so i thought maybe you are from turkiye :) 22:07:52 <_3b> droogie: ah, nope :) 22:07:52 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 22:08:08 Fare: erlang is so good mainly because of its VM which, among other things, has a preemptive scheduler 22:08:12 I need to loopover them and return it in the exact same form... 22:08:18 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-25.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:08:19 sounds like something that can be done with a simple recursion with a cond 22:08:28 Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-25.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:54 I have been tryring to get it to work but no luck... 22:08:57 when it's a list, check if the first thingy is ? 22:09:06 else recurse through the list 22:09:16 when an atom, return the thingy 22:09:42 oh, and when the first thingy is a ?, do your gensym dance 22:09:43 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 22:09:48 -!- fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 22:10:03 ATOM and LISTP are the check for that... 22:10:04 Fare: implementing EiL as a library atop CL will, at best, only allows you to use actors in a similar manner without being able to achieve the same level of robustness as the Erlang VM 22:10:06 Hmm 22:10:31 you might also use (eq thingy '?) 22:10:52 Hun: also you have to decide whether you care about nil's listiness or atomicity 22:10:59 true 22:11:15 Hun: I am trying that now... 22:11:21 fe[nl]ix: because of difference in the process modell or why? 22:11:28 sbcl says lispbuilder-sdl has some conflicts with cl-user package when i use (use-package :lispbuilder-sdl) i realized the same with ltk sometime, how can i avoid this? 22:11:29 i prefer CONSP for this 22:11:52 <_3b> droogie: create a new package that only uses what you need 22:11:57 sorry for the term "sbcl says" by the way :D 22:12:18 droogie: make your own cl-user package 22:12:22 like droogie-user 22:12:25 <_3b> droogie: and if you use conflicting packages, either use a package prefix for symbosl from 1, or use shadowing-import 22:15:10 (defpackage :hello-world 22:15:10 (:use :common-lisp :ltk) 22:15:10 (:export #:main)) 22:15:16 something like that? 22:16:18 _3b: I'll look at your mods tonight, leaving work for now 22:17:52 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:17:55 but where exacly does this determine what i need? (i think trying to code something above my degree for learning the language was a bad idea) (: 22:18:19 danlei [n=user@pD9E2FA53.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:17 hypno: because with the CL primitives one can only implement cooperative multitasking. if you want something as robust as Erlang, that's not enough 22:21:29 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-68-103.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:21:34 hmm, it works if i use in-package instead of use-package without conflict but i know that this is not the real solution. 22:21:52 droogie: your Lisp imports a bunch of stuff into cl-user by default. 22:21:57 that's why it conflicts 22:22:13 by using your own -user package for experiments, you can better control what's imported 22:22:29 you can fix cl-user, but I think it would be harder 22:23:12 <_3b> also, some packages just aren't designed for easy use with use-package 22:23:18 like series 22:23:40 so should i use cl instead of cl-user in the droogie-user i define? 22:23:42 series, btw, much easier to use with tcr.named-readtables 22:23:50 yes 22:23:53 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-25.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:24:05 using cl-user won't actually pull anything, because it doesn't reexport the symbols it imports 22:24:14 <_3b> right, you should never rely on cl-user, unless you like running into portability problems later :) 22:24:32 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-25.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:24:38 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:12 hmm, i get it, is there a list that shows the contents of cl-user and cl 22:25:13 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 22:25:22 <_3b> cl is defined by the spec 22:25:31 fe[nl]ix: i'm not quite sure i follow or agree. erlang too uses nonblocking io deep down, and even if you can fork millions of processes, you can still /not/, concurrently, execute more than the number of (virtual) cpu units in your box. why is the erlang modell supposedly more robust than a similar cl solution? 22:25:37 <_3b> cl-user has whatever the implementation thought would be useful 22:25:49 Other than CMUCL, SBCL, ECL, and ABCL, which CL implementations are still active? 22:26:01 CCL 22:26:07 Lispworks, Allegro, Scieneer, Corman ;-) 22:26:37 don't forget CLISP 22:26:48 -!- HG` [n=wells@91.111.13.16] has quit [Client Quit] 22:26:53 CLISP, of course 22:27:00 I should have said "FOSS implementations" 22:27:14 arc? :-D 22:27:21 maybe GNU CL, GCL also counts? :) 22:27:35 <_3b> sicl? :) 22:27:44 poplog? 22:28:00 fe[nl]ix, I'll argue that a mix of fork (for robustness) and green threads (for massive parallelism) can be a win 22:28:02 genera? 22:28:14 (how do we define active?) 22:28:18 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:23 kcl? 22:28:25 gnu.org claims last release in 2005 22:28:38 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:28:42 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:29:30 hypno: with cooperative multitasking, if one of your actors gets into an endless loop(possibly because of a bug) you're screwed 22:29:42 So that's five FOSS implementations still being actively developed. 22:29:52 Good: not too many, not too few. 22:30:13 whatever makes you happy. 22:30:17 anyone has experience with opengenera by the way, i heard that it's able to be emulated on linux 64 22:30:24 there's a project developing CL for the parrot VM 22:30:35 don't know how far along they are 22:30:37 I read about that, yes 22:30:53 droogie: it runs quite well under 64 bit linux, and i've seen it on intel macs as well. 22:31:05 there's that other Java-based implementation announced at ILC (whose name escapes me at the moment) 22:31:21 while with erlang, the scheduler will preempt the runaway process. also you can have a main process that watches the others and sets a timeout on their execution and which can safely terminate misbehaving processes 22:31:43 the one that was giving out t-shirts 22:31:46 but isn't symbolics dead by now? when did they distributed the open genera 22:31:59 define dead 22:32:00 *jcowan* notes no CMUCL support for x86_64 22:32:39 hmm, i was waiting for someone to say "there is no dead" 22:32:55 Clozure and SBCL have recently completed ports to more systems 22:33:12 I use the latter but wonder now if the former isn't worth a try 22:33:50 I've been using it on amd64 for several months now 22:33:51 it's nice 22:34:50 Okay, I'll add Clozure to the list 22:35:44 Six FOSS implemenations: still not too many, definitely not too few 22:35:56 implementations, even 22:36:02 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:36:23 minion: chant 22:36:24 MORE SYSTEMS 22:36:37 perfect 22:36:57 CL needs to beat Scheme in the free implementation count war 22:37:32 fe[nl]ix: hmm. but then you are putting quite a number of hard restrictions on what the erlang processes is allowed to do, are you not? 22:37:34 <_3b> S11001001: unlikely, lot easier to make something you can claim is a sceme than a CL :) 22:38:39 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:38:58 _3b: One CL -> Scheme to rule them all. 22:39:00 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has joined #lisp 22:39:25 clinscheme, an implementation of CL written in R6RS 22:39:38 ooh 22:39:50 -!- manby-ace_ [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [] 22:40:07 the "howl's moving castle" nature of CL scares me 22:40:32 that one made me laugh out loud when i first read it :) 22:40:41 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-95-53-161-51.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 22:42:57 not knowing what the reference was, I had to look it up 22:43:09 so it got a chuckle when I found a picture 22:43:21 lol 22:43:25 then I had to automotivate with it: http://ubermonkey.net/~akhasha/images/cl-no-feature.jpg 22:43:43 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.149.227] has joined #lisp 22:46:17 it might sound awfully trollish, but the massive standard and design by comittee nature of CL makes it the C++ of the lisp world 22:46:55 <_3b> too bad that dosn't work the other way :/ 22:47:20 it's funny, but the colors should be darker 22:47:33 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.194.253] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:47:34 I've got a long way to go before I'm comfortable with it, and these little lisps like PicoLisp, PLTscheme, Clojure and even Arc are enticing 22:48:13 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:48:49 arc is enticing? 22:48:52 Clojure and PLT aren't so small... 22:49:05 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:49:14 :) 22:49:26 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:40 I don't know enough to make categorical statements like that I guess 22:50:06 -!- willb [n=wibenton@144.92.98.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:50:37 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:38 paul graham helped convince me to look into lisp, and it was the way he talked about the simplicity of it 22:50:58 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:51:14 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:26 sometimes that simplicity gets lots in the variety of CL's historical baggage 22:51:30 simple != easy ;-) 22:51:35 or small, actually... 22:52:14 s/lots/lost/ 22:52:35 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:53:29 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:54:43 ah well, the 'local maximum' idea keeps me on the straight and narrow 22:54:45 but i think that "less is more" idea doesn't really work 22:54:52 lost? most of the whining about "historical baggage" is about c[ad*]r and other similiar nonissues. to the difference of unix design, these things are not in your face. 22:56:06 things like elt and nth taking arguments in a different order 22:56:21 cl is simple once you learn it, nothing is simple without an effort 22:56:43 that's true... but there are many things to keep in mind 22:57:09 -!- jao [n=jao@185.Red-88-15-113.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:57:14 the idea of representing code and data as a series of 1's and 0's is really quite simple. That doesn't make it any less complex. 22:58:00 spacebat_: if your lisp environment doesn't show you the arglist of the function you are trying to enter, you're doing it wrong :) 22:58:10 spacebat_: slime tells what arguments nth or elt take, so i don't keep it in mind 22:58:17 it does, but I shouldn't have to pause for that instant 22:58:39 ok, don't use nth 22:58:40 if you're using nth often enough to care, you're also doing it wrong 22:59:09 spacebat_: however, you can easily remeber elt and forget about nth. why is this such a problem? 22:59:10 yes I probably am 22:59:25 its just an example 22:59:27 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:40 or write a macro to change the arg order :p 22:59:47 really, in a giant system comprised of many complex componets, if your biggest issue is forgetting argument order, it's a net wein. 22:59:51 droogie: no. 23:00:05 english language has more irregularities 23:00:13 that's why I'm still hanging around the CL foundry 23:00:20 stassats`: that's not saying much :P 23:00:21 stassats`: mine does obviously! 23:00:58 ... ooo-kay... someone explain to me why emacs-otf requires *openmotif* and doesn't work with lesstif? 23:01:02 spacebat_: that it's not hard to keep them in mind, even if it's not your native language 23:02:46 drewc: what would be the handicap of writing a simple macro to customize a feature that you're uncomfortable with? i really wonder since i'm new, might there be problems with evaluation time? 23:03:23 readers of your code asking "WTF?" 23:04:04 stassats`: i think readers of my code already asks "wtf?" :D 23:04:05 especially if it's a hack on defclass; no one can keep mental track of what all the defclass* macros do 23:04:23 -!- white-rabbit-obj [n=cpc5@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:04:47 droogie: i did, yes 23:05:17 stassats`: thanks :) 23:08:15 stassats`: anyway thanks for the explanation, i really don't like using macros for that kind of customization, but i remember seeing that kind of things in some javascript code etc. and wondered would it be a problem in cl. 23:09:04 hypno: what restrictions ? 23:09:19 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:10:25 Has anybody done stdio/pipeable programming in any of the CLs? 23:11:02 Most of them seem to spam stdio or stderr whenever they feel like it, with loads, banners, etc 23:11:13 fe[nl]ix: can you arbitrary call possibly blocking ffi functions, for example? 23:11:31 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 23:11:42 hypno: you can, with all sorts of warnings in the docs 23:11:55 hypno: yes, you can't escape that 23:11:57 Phoodus: heh. 23:13:31 obviously the ideal in Erlang is to have threaded C hooked in, or start up a separate C node that does what it wants outside the VM 23:14:24 droogie: using a macro when a function will do is a no-no in general. 23:15:02 using a macro to 'alias' a function is just plain wrong :) 23:15:46 and changing the argument order of a known function because of (why exactly?) is a capital offense. 23:15:48 multiple-value-bind is a nasty name for something that's potentially quite common 23:15:49 -!- rolly1975 [n=rory@026.d.001.dav.iprimus.net.au] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:16:06 spacebat_: why? 23:16:07 but emacs to the rescue 23:16:17 what name do you propose? 23:16:20 spacebat_: yeah, (values ...) is nice and short, why cant it be (values-in ...) or something? 23:16:20 long to type, long to read 23:16:20 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 23:16:37 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 23:16:45 how long does it take you to read? i mean, you're not sounding it out, are you? 23:16:50 short to process in brain 23:17:05 in perl its just my ($a, $b) = func(); 23:17:19 and? 23:17:20 i have no problem at all with it, really, and i was frankly quite amazed by that when i came from C to CL. :) 23:17:36 (setf (values a b) (func)) 23:17:41 in whitespace it looks like : 23:17:55 that's interesting stassats` 23:18:05 wait ... that's a typo .... more like this : 23:18:32 stassats`: that's cheating of course :) 23:19:12 looks a lot nicer to me 23:19:33 but it doesn't do the same 23:19:44 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:19:46 yes you still need a let or whatever 23:19:54 m-v-b! 23:20:12 I can see that a macro called m-v-b is wrong 23:20:45 but "multiple-value-bind", which perfectly describes what it does, is obviously "wrong"? 23:20:53 can you see why a macro called MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND is good? 23:20:56 -!- milanj- [n=milan@79.101.149.227] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:21:14 its obviously as long as the entire expression in perl 23:21:22 and? 23:21:47 (let (((a b) (values a b)))) MORE PARENTHESIS! 23:21:47 it's more than likely orders of magnitude smaller in APL. do you prefer APL? 23:21:48 I do value succinctness 23:22:02 I don't know it 23:22:27 spacebat_: succinctness "you keep using that word" .... 23:23:05 (with-values (a b c) (values 1 2 3) ...) 23:23:28 Arc might be taking things too far, but a 3 word, 6 syllable macro for pulling multiple values out of a function 23:23:41 Phoodus: what do you plan to rename the rest of the MUTLIPLE-VALUE-* functions? 23:23:47 something that ought to be like car or cdr in lisp, it seems weird 23:23:48 I want a common-lisp variant that has a mid-block "let" without introducing new scope in the source. ala C99/C++ allowing you to do "int x = 5; somefunction(x); int y = 3; someotherfunction(y);" 23:23:51 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-219.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:24:01 drewc: I've never used the others, so not my problem ;) 23:24:14 hmm, I wonder if I can use ABCL with google app engine/java 23:24:17 instead of "int x = 5; somefunction(x); {int y = 3; someotherfunction(y);}" which you had to do in C89 and in lisp. :) 23:24:21 Phoodus: don't make it my problem ;) 23:24:32 let us compete in devising a superior block macro with inline lets and other features ala LOOP 23:24:37 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-146-122.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:24:49 foom: less of hassle in CL tho - considering functions are often nested. 23:24:50 foom: that's the only reason I finally started using C99 23:24:56 but creating a binding scope has generally been with-* in most all of the code I've seen. (let notwithstanding) 23:25:31 so with-values is nice and symmetric 23:25:32 (although it breaks my old practice of using C++-style line comments as FIXMEs, because the compiler would warn about them) 23:25:44 hypno: less of a hassle? it seems just as much a hassle to me 23:25:48 I agree Phoodus 23:26:04 *drewc* is of the opinion that lisp is to solve real problems. If the names in the standard library are your problems, lisp is not for solving them. 23:26:13 with a few nested multiple-value-bind, let, flet, you can get quite indenty 23:26:35 split your function 23:26:38 foom: then don't do that. 23:26:38 drewc: How do you solve the real problem of deploying lisp applications to customers? 23:27:04 ooh this is a fun one 23:27:09 drewc: that's why I just use the standard library names, but I do bitch about them now and then 23:27:12 too bad I'm going away for now 23:27:12 Phoodus: see!? This is not a real problem! 23:27:13 drewc: shrug, it makes my C code nicer to allow implicit scopes, I expect it'd do the same for lisp. :) 23:27:17 lol 23:27:22 well, at least my lisp code has /way/ less temporary variables and whatever nonsense than the equalient C program. 23:27:29 Phoodus: I rsync a binary to the production server for major updates, and use 'patch.lisp' or asdf reloading for minor fixes 23:27:32 white_rabbit_obj [n=white_ra@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:27:34 ergo: less of a hassle or problem. 23:28:01 foom: 'implicit' is not something lisp does well... and i for one am happy for hat. 23:28:03 that 23:28:04 drewc: server? what server? I mean that customers can get, install, and invoke without being lisp experts 23:28:17 cross-platform 23:28:22 Phoodus: you send an exe? 23:28:29 drewc: it does implicit progn quite well 23:28:43 stassats`: fair enough, and i'm thankful for that too :) 23:29:03 Phoodus: lispworks and allegro have niceish packaging tools so I hear 23:29:04 hypno: Do you have an installer? I'd love to see one. All the "bundle an image" stuff has never worked for us, following docs explicitly 23:29:08 Phoodus: i don't, that's not my problem. I'd probably ship an .exe 23:29:10 I actually think it'd be a pretty small change, and is only a surface syntax change, not a semantic change, at that. 23:29:13 though cross platform binaries I don't know 23:29:18 Phoodus: not quite sure what you are after. are you pretending not to know how to deploy applications? for someone knowing erlang in detail, such a questions sounds odd. 23:29:23 cross platform binaries? 23:29:25 If I was really bothered by it I could make a reader which did it for me. :) 23:29:26 that's a new one. 23:29:46 Sun would disagree. 23:29:50 Phoodus: well, i used NSI (i think that is the name) and it is freely available. 23:29:52 But my level of bother has not reached high enough to make my own lisp variant yet. 23:29:56 hypno: yeah, everything we've tried in Lisp hasn't worked. The erlang stuff has pretty good support for it, though we've only deployed internally with it so far 23:30:04 hefner: Java is a platform, non? 23:30:16 can i run java bytecode on clisp? 23:30:31 and we've had an Allegro research license; their licensing for deploying to customers is insanely expensive 23:30:41 Phoodus: ABCL FTW :P 23:30:51 that is a bizz-problem. go with lw instead? 23:30:55 but its got a ways to go 23:30:55 I don't understand... what does it mean if clisp dies with exit code 6? :\ 23:31:15 Phoodus: "didn't work" meaning bugs or pebkac? 23:31:18 spacebat_: yeah, we're using that now, but it's got a lot of statics & globals in its assumptions and doesn't thread too well so far. They're working on it, and we've given them demo samples 23:31:22 bugs 23:31:39 yes, and slow arse clos I hear 23:31:40 hypno: also, one solves the problem of blocking FFI calls by reimplementing those libraries. see http://erlang.org/doc/highlights.html section 3.3 23:31:43 Phoodus: and nobody was able to fix them? 23:31:54 Phoodus: your vendor can usually help. 23:32:12 Our only vendor has been Allegro so far, and their pricing doesn't fit within our model at all 23:32:26 fe[nl]ix: yes, and i believe a similiar modell could easily be used in CL too. 23:33:12 Phoodus: you might try a different vendor, e.g. lispworks (commercial) or clozure (open source, paid consulting), or you could go with sbcl which has no vendor but does have a helpful mailing list. 23:33:14 Phoodus: so, ACL was buggy and you didn't report it to allegro? 23:33:19 but it really is a combination of things. ECL doesn't work on windows, SBCL is iffy on Windows, CLISP doesn't thread, etc. A combination of features that works wherever you run it + workable deployment has yet to be found 23:33:38 ECL doesnt work on windows? 23:33:49 drewc: We've sent a LOT of bugs to Franz, and they fixed them. Really, really basic things in threading & network IO which indicates that nobody has ever really pushed that code 23:34:27 hypno: of course. now could you do it :) ? 23:34:42 drewc: We're on 64-bit XP, too 23:34:46 fe[nl]ix: with native threads i dont have too. :) 23:34:57 so that blows up a lot of assumptions for some reason 23:35:03 Phoodus: so what are you complaining about? your vendor is too helpful on your shitty new platform? ;) 23:35:16 Allegro seems okay, they're just too expensive 23:35:29 hypno: not really 23:35:37 and their AllegroCache isn't fast enough 23:35:52 Phoodus: you poor thing. 23:36:18 I also wonder why they made this big graphical IDE thing... then told everybody to use Slime anyway 23:36:18 Phoodus: i can sympathize with some of that. the networking stuff is somewhat behind in the CL world, or rather, it's too C-ish and not closified and solidified into proper production frameworks. i think you have to do some work with that on your own. 23:36:29 Phoodus: why not try another lisp? another database? another vendor? you speak as if the problems you face are somehow universal to CL rather than a very specific case. 23:36:55 like I said, some CLs are better than others at various things, but there's been no CL that actually supports what we want 23:37:09 lisp seems terribly windows-unfriendly, tbh 23:37:10 so we're using multi-languages with Erlang distribution 23:37:13 hypno: " networking stuff is somewhat behind in the CL world, or rather, it's too C-ish" -- I actually think it's not Cish enough, it's wrapped in silly streams stuff that gets in your way. :p 23:37:26 -!- white_rabbit_obj [n=white_ra@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:37:27 hypno: "proper production frameworks" ??? 23:37:42 Phoodus: that's fair i suppose, use the tool that works :) 23:37:58 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has quit [] 23:38:04 that's our philosophy. And coarse-grained parallelism & distribution works well for us 23:38:37 and ECL works just fine on windows, thank you very much :P 23:38:57 smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has joined #lisp 23:39:10 well, it's hockey time! 23:39:12 foom: not necessarily. you can use sendto/recvfrom with at least sb-bsd-sockets and iolib 23:39:14 Cipher345 [n=Cipher@CABLE-72-53-27-73.cia.com] has joined #lisp 23:39:14 white-rabbit-obj [n=white-ra@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:39:23 I'd love to see a howto to build a self-contained exe that works in 64-bit windows 23:39:27 erm, using ECL 23:39:52 64-bit windows? why not pick something less obscure, like VMS? 23:39:54 Hello, I was wondering if anyone knew where I might find Symbolics reference documentation ? 23:40:26 I am interested in commands for the CP and FEP 23:40:29 fe[nl]ix: like the OTP or some of the other erlang stuff? it comes prepackaged with batteries included. i believe CL can do pretty much the same, with better protocol description languages, even nicer abstractions and whatnot. ie, a framework for production use. 23:40:35 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:40:57 Cipher345: I suspect you might have to consult a working genera system :/ 23:41:00 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:26 -!- white-rabbit-obj [n=white-ra@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:41:34 Phoodus: ECL-enhanced ASDF with 64bit cl.exe? 23:41:51 (as in cl.exe the MS C compiler) 23:41:56 Phoodus: i tried creating a whole executable package with sbcl, in fact it was quite easy, there are ways for even the fancy stuff like like exe icons. and the installer thingss. 23:42:04 Phoodus: are you forced to create an exe? why not ship ECL with the package otherwise? 23:42:17 white_rabbit_obj [n=white_ra@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:42:32 Cipher345: you might find what you want here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/symbolics/software/ 23:42:38 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has quit [Client Quit] 23:42:47 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:43:46 Phoodus: I haven't tried on 64bit windows, but ECL+VS2008+Win7 worked fine... 23:44:43 foom: heh. i do not think the details should be inaccessible, just stashed away and explicitly asked for if needed; not the painful default they usually are. 23:44:57 Phoodus: since its a bit harder to setup an environment for cl in win, i even turned my emacs + slime + sbcl + packages into a single installer which runs in every winXP 23:45:15 thanks P_1 and hefner :) 23:46:31 argh, dreaded '1' strikes again... 23:46:37 -!- white_rabbit_obj [n=white_ra@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:46:46 Phoodus: it doesn't mean that you can't create a sweet(for whom?) exe distro just because of the implementation doesn't have a wizard for that. 23:46:47 <_3b> droogie: sbcl won't run on 'every' xp, unless you patched it :p 23:47:34 Is there a stable SBCL for win32? 23:48:09 <_3b> sbcl is reasonably stable on win32, it just might not work at all on some win32 installs 23:48:11 but i tried my executables not just in xp also in vista, worked. 23:48:50 <_3b> it depends on what random .dlls are loaded where, so it is hard to predict 23:48:53 -!- apo [n=apo@pD9E7F07A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:48:57 of course i didn't test it enough to say it completely works in every win os 23:49:00 white-rabbit-obj [n=white-ra@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:49:43 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087ADE7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:49:54 _3b: hmm, i didn't know that. 23:50:06 _3b: random .dlls can clobber sbcl?... 23:50:22 <_3b> random .dlls can load into address space sbcl wants 23:50:31 image loading location 23:50:32 ccl seems to be reasonably stable 23:50:51 <_3b> it probably either allocates heap differently, or has the same problem :) 23:50:56 thanks again guys, looks like I have some reading to do ;) 23:50:58 -!- Cipher345 [n=Cipher@CABLE-72-53-27-73.cia.com] has quit ["http://irc2go.com/"] 23:52:52 apo [n=apo@pD9E7F168.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:05 _3b: is this random dll crashing a rare problem? 23:53:32 hefner: so I don't think it's the "newness" of the sbcl that causes the accelerated crashing, but rather that threaded builds seem to be more resilient 23:53:35 _3b: and does it seem like it'll be fixed in future versions? 23:53:43 unithreaded builds crash almost right away 23:53:58 <_3b> rare enough that nobody care enough to fix it, but not rare enough that i would ship sbcl binaries to random people and expect them to work 23:54:24 <_3b> it will probably get fixed eventually, if ccl doesn't take over win32 open source lisp mindshare :) 23:54:26 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@y192003.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit ["Instain to the do way"] 23:56:03 _3b: do you think ccl is better? i choose to work with sbcl because it seemed like the packages usually work better with sbcl. 23:56:30 _3b: i mean is it better in windows side 23:56:42 <_3b> droogie: i haven't reallyused it... but it seems to have more active/motivated windows developers currently 23:57:26 dreish_ [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:57:26 _3b: and you use? 23:57:28 nyef [n=nyef@24.220.182.229] has joined #lisp 23:57:31 Hello all. 23:57:33 <_3b> on other platforms, both are good, with slightly differnt strengths 23:57:37 <_3b> i use sbcl on win32 23:58:05 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:06 <_3b> if i were distributing binaries widley, i'd probably try corman or ccl, or lw or allegro if someone was paying for them 23:58:25 Heh. Speaking of SBCL/Win32... Does anyone know of a Win32 API function that takes a USER object handle such as an HBITMAP, HICON, HCURSOR, etc., and tells you what type of handle it is? 23:58:31 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-206-87-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:58:41 -!- white-rabbit-obj [n=white-ra@cpe-67-241-171-153.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:59:10 hey nyef 23:59:13 Hello slyrus.