00:00:51 -!- malc_ [n=malc@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 00:00:57 How do you disable the "Style Warnings" that pop up whenever you redefine a function at the REPL in SBCL? 00:01:56 don't disable them, they're harmless 00:02:18 and useful if you happen to have a package conflict :-) 00:02:42 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 00:03:42 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 00:04:29 I'll usually leave them on, but I do most of my debugging in an emacs buffer with slime, and don't want to have to type C-x 1 every time I fix a function. 00:05:39 hi .. hm, anyone tried to use PCos's DFLET thingy to shadow(?) stuff in the CL package? .. i wonder if that'd work .. seems interesting 00:05:56 make the lisp buffer really tiny :-) 00:06:08 adlirc [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 00:06:10 -!- adlirc is now known as addled 00:06:34 -!- apo_ [n=apo@pD9E7FCB2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:08:28 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 00:08:54 hefner pasted "SVG -> vecto" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78719 00:08:56 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:09:20 dunno if I ever pasted that. not finished, but works on one reasonably complex file. 00:09:38 <_3b> ooh, interesting 00:10:08 <_3b> under any particular license? 00:10:18 MIT-style 00:10:25 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:10:31 "steal this code" 00:11:04 <_3b> cool, would be putting it in code with that sort of license, so that works :) 00:14:15 -!- uninverted [n=njs@ip98-184-78-157.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:14:38 -!- psheldr [n=Miranda@p5B03B084.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org"] 00:14:42 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:14:46 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 00:16:15 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:29:34 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:16 hefner: ooh shiny! 00:31:57 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.207.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:31:58 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB!"] 00:34:29 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-20.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Success] 00:37:01 sadly, when I save something from inkscape, it puts half the information in damn CSS 00:37:13 I never got around to dealing with that 00:37:15 <_3b> that's annoying :/ 00:37:34 solution - use illustrator! 00:37:42 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.159.79] has joined #lisp 00:38:02 <_3b> heh, would need some art skills to justify actually paying for art tools :p 00:39:55 lukego [n=lukegorr@124.148.45.167] has joined #lisp 00:40:22 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 00:40:33 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:41:35 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:43 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-70-11.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:42:03 -!- The-Kenn1 [n=moritz@p5087E653.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:26 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.159.79] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:44:34 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.159.79] has joined #lisp 00:45:14 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-150-57-149.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:59 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-38.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 00:47:16 <_3b> nice, managed to get output from it using my hacked vecto :) 00:47:29 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:47:40 <_3b> seems to be missing a bit though 00:47:41 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-150-57-149.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:48:00 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-150-57-149.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:55 <_3b> don't think my hack translates general vecto usage very well though 00:49:05 -!- tritchey__ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:49:16 -!- jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:50:15 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 00:50:48 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.221.196] has joined #lisp 00:51:26 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:33 Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 00:51:46 _3b: try http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/misc/mario.svg (amusingly, firefox renders it wrong) 00:51:55 that was my test case 00:52:00 hefner: looks fine here 00:52:13 png for comparison? 00:52:21 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-68-239-77-4.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:08 <_3b> URI scheme :HTTP not supported 00:53:11 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.0.8) Gecko/2009033100 Ubuntu/9.04 (jaunty) Firefox/3.0.8 00:53:37 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:53:56 I'm not really interested in debugging firefox's svg renderer. there's a subtle bug you can see in the right eye, if the pupil is clipped diagonally along the top. 00:53:57 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:53:59 <_3b> looks about the same in firefox and inkscape here though 00:54:10 oh, I see it now 00:54:12 n/m then 00:54:16 <_3b> same in inkscape 00:55:37 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 00:56:00 I forget what it was now, something about a rotation not being applied to a clipping mask I think. it's possible that adobe's svg export is at fault, but it seemed reasonable to me. 00:56:10 <_3b> hefner: any suggestions for the http uri bit? 00:56:19 _3b: I don't know what the refers to. 00:56:28 <_3b> cxml error trying to load that file 00:56:34 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 00:56:39 <_3b> "URI scheme :HTTP not supported" 00:56:59 I wonder if that's the bit where you have to do (setf cxml:*catalog* (cxml:make-catalog)) 00:57:16 <_3b> dunno, that part is still there 00:57:21 Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 00:57:56 <_3b> ah, cxml docs talk about it 00:58:17 it works for me. produces http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/misc/svg-vecto.png 00:59:18 <_3b> you probably have the dtd installed locally somewhere 00:59:41 oh, yeah. I don't understand XML and DTDs at all. The SVG code is the only time I've had to deal with it. 01:00:13 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 01:02:04 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:07 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:08:49 (setf ucw-core:*debug-on-error* t) 01:09:03 damnit .. ERC is not a package, this is not a repl 01:09:10 haha 01:09:16 T 01:09:31 i don't even have slime loaded in this emacs instance! 01:09:37 *drewc* is confused 01:11:03 Let's debug that. 01:12:00 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:12:46 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:13:07 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:13:31 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:53 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:15:20 woopdeedoo [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:59 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 01:16:08 anyway to tell emacs not to grow the slime-repl buffer infinitely? i'm hitting the million line mark fairly daily and it slows down my scrolling 01:16:42 you can clear it with C-c M-o 01:17:04 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:24 nice! 01:18:03 the guy I'm working with is asking how to convert characters to integers, much like you'd do char foo = rand() % 128; int letter = foo - 'A'; in C to get the offset from A 01:18:14 (char-code ..) (code-char ..) 01:18:19 god that's easy 01:19:03 and even works with unicode on lisps that support it ;) 01:19:25 drewc: good to see you here, i'm stress testing rucksack atm 01:20:08 fusss: rucksack is very cool. i'd consider using it if i ever needed to deliver a 'desktop' or standalone application. 01:20:20 i took a worst case scenario of users of my web app creating 5 clos objects, each, per second. the little bastard held his ground! 01:20:29 5k hits in 1.5/s :-) 01:20:39 nice! 01:20:46 i'm doing it on the web, with hunchentoot 01:21:02 1.0? 01:21:26 it has a fixed transaction overhead, so if you pool a series of side-effects you know aren't related, the cost is almost fixed 01:21:32 why not use a real database then? postgresql is free, fast, and is an incredible ORDBMS with many lispy features. 01:21:57 stassats`: i have my CMS and campaign management stuff in 0.15.7, i'm playing with 1.0.0 right now. looks allot different. 01:22:39 actually, scratch that.. i'd like to see more people using rucksack anyway :) 01:23:02 drewc: i do things as simple and straight forward as possible, and get sophisticated only when needed. 01:24:04 drewc: then when time will come, you'll get it more polished? 01:24:39 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:49 Arthur Lemmens' talk pretty much sold me to it, and your nod to it, of course drew ;-) 01:25:49 lemmens' talk, at least as it's written, inspires confidence in the man and his hacking ability. 01:28:49 alright, time to boot into an sbcl running on something better than windows .. 01:28:50 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609]"] 01:29:44 stassats`: exactly :) 01:30:17 fusss lemmens is quite the hacker indeed. 01:30:31 rather, fuss: lemmens etc. 01:31:33 smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:08 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.159.79] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:32:55 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.47.225] has joined #lisp 01:34:17 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:34:26 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:35:09 *_3b* gives up and ignores the dtd 01:37:10 _3b: get-element-by-id always returns NIL sans dtd, but besides that you can get away without it. 01:37:22 <_3b> well, it is recognizable at least... http://www.3bb.cc/tmp/svg-test-mario.swf 01:37:59 he's on drugs, clearly 01:38:17 <_3b> apparently, how else would you explain the games? 01:38:26 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.47.225] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:38:33 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.47.225] has joined #lisp 01:40:28 <_3b> currently i don't even try to do clipping regions, which is probably most of the problem 01:42:12 wow .. all those mushrooms finally took their toll on the old boy! 01:42:21 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@60.Red-79-150-112.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:43:27 <_3b> not sure how much of the rest is bad translation and how much is needing to split it into multiple shapes in the swf 01:44:56 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@124.148.45.167] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:45:06 -!- yoonkn [n=yoonkn@210.108.170.71] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:47:13 kidd1 [n=kidd@60.Red-79-150-112.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:31 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-211-72.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 01:49:20 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:51:33 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 01:52:21 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:41 Did someone studies a course of logic that covers the mathematical fundaments of Lisp systems ? 01:54:54 Did someone study a course of logic that covers the mathematical fundaments of Lisp systems ? 01:55:27 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 01:55:34 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:55:36 legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-0-84.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:55:47 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-38.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:56:07 a-s: by ' mathematical fundaments of Lisp systems', do you refer to the lambda calculus, or something else entirely? 01:56:46 set theory? 01:57:55 *drewc* rebuilt the image without bothering to save the changed to the files that make up the system. doh! 01:59:36 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-67.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:02:55 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:06:02 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.47.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:07:05 drewc: one of the fundaments of lisp is indeed the lambda-calculus, but I refer myself to logic itself. More precisely to the Gödel theorem of incompletitude, which is in fact exactly the evaluator function of lisp systems. 02:07:09 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.60.204] has joined #lisp 02:07:16 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.221.196] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:07:43 so I mean LOGIC, not lambda-cal. 02:08:44 I wish to know whether somebody here studied a course of logic that links the lisp systems to logic... as a mathematical fundament of lisp. 02:08:54 gödels's theorem is so fundamental so it's not worth talking about 02:09:00 Incompleteness is not a function. 02:09:02 in regards to lisp 02:09:36 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:09:45 It's a theorem about probable statements in theories capable of expressing arithmetic. 02:09:58 s/probable/provable (big difference there) 02:09:59 gödels's theorem of Incompleteness contains in its proof exactly how the evaluator works 02:10:46 for me it's evident even if I did not study a course of logic (yet) 02:11:01 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 02:12:31 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.60.204] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:12:38 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.60.204] has joined #lisp 02:12:48 i looked just ober wiki pedia. 02:13:02 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:09 -!- lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-211-72.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:13:17 i want to ask whether somebody has already studied this connection. 02:13:44 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-53-29.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:13:44 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:14:08 you might be interested in automated theorem proving 02:14:08 gödels's theorem of Incompleteness contains the lisp evaluator, so the pure objects of logic that are contained in that theorem are object of lisp systems. 02:14:09 it's not about lisp, but about logic, so i'd say it's not that on topic 02:14:51 a-s: I would expect the distance between Gödel's proof and any given Lisp interpreter is sufficiently far as to not be interesting 02:15:24 my professor just got done describing a rather interesting way to express logic in a computer program 02:15:33 stassats: it's an error to say "we speak about measuring distances on the map, but it's not out topic to speak abou Pitagora's theorem... but, as you wish..." 02:15:34 I think he uses Lisp in one example 02:15:36 http://www.mcs.sdsmt.edu/csc447/Resources/Resolution.pdf 02:16:21 kpreid: then you should stydy lisp deeper. 02:16:29 oh well 02:16:33 you're not going to be able to connect this sort of stuff to Godel's incompleteness theorem 02:16:46 a-s: please, stop 02:17:06 anyway 02:17:20 I'm using asdf and sbcl for this Othello player 02:17:36 a-s: perhaps you should look into ACL2 02:17:49 I stop, I asked whether somebody knows the connection. I know the connection from 1 article that I read, but I do not know a good course of logic. 02:17:55 they work well, sbcl takes like two to three seconds to move, GNU clisp takes ... well, like five minutes, except it's probably mroe than that 02:17:59 a-s: If you want to look into mathematical foundations for lisp, you want the lambda calculus. 02:18:19 there's a guy that's 'working' with me on this project 02:18:22 my problem is a question for _good_ lispers 02:18:23 he uses Windows 02:18:27 what should I tell him? 02:18:51 'too bad, lisp isn't used as much as it was in the 70's, so you won't be able to do anything useful in windows' 02:19:36 mogunus: or in "denational semantics" 02:19:41 windows is so 70ish, tell him to install some more sensible OS 02:19:51 doubt he'll go for that 02:19:59 No, the fundation of all lisp systems are lambda-cal is the logic. 02:20:03 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-208-187.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 02:20:18 tweek: there's a windows port of sbcl 02:20:28 yeah, and asdf doesn't even remotely sort-of work on it 02:20:47 it can't find packages in its registry even when explicitly told where to look 02:20:49 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:54 it can't do a Goddamned thing 02:21:06 it's rather frustrating 02:21:07 the real lispers must fight against Windows. Lisp is the liberty of understanding systems. So the real lispers must work just on open source! 02:21:09 Doesn't clbuild work in cygwin? 02:21:10 i'm sure there are people who use asdf on windows 02:21:42 hey, new usocket 0.4.1 just breaks on windows 02:21:49 The function USOCKET::%SETUP-WAIT-LIST is undefined. 02:22:32 i keep restarting a fresh image; the name exists, the symbol gets internet in USOCKET package but there is no associated code 02:22:53 rather, its a variable symbol, not a function symbol 02:23:05 *fusss* uses asdf on windows xp 02:23:23 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:24:42 oh well, i stay on LW again :-S 02:25:13 Yeah, the clbuild page says it works on cygwin sometimes. 02:25:33 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@c-68-84-2-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:00 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy 02:27:29 tweek: tell him to use lispworks! 02:27:44 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:27:59 poet [n=tsally2@fermat.cse.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 02:28:06 fusss: nuke your .fasls and try again 02:29:38 drewc: tried that earlier; going to replicate the setup on my weakling linux box in the basement first 02:33:01 fusss: that's my generic answer for those types of questions :P 02:33:37 kinnetica [n=kinnetic@pool-96-240-132-176.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:38 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:40:56 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:42:02 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 02:42:05 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.17.215] has joined #lisp 02:42:40 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.17.215] has left #lisp 02:44:02 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 02:45:51 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:45:51 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit 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[i=Dave2@freenode/staff/dave2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:58:02 tweek pasted "timed file input/output" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78726 02:58:07 I give up 02:58:15 there's something wrong here, it's subtle, but I can't find it 02:58:59 (with-open-file (hnd #p"testfile" :direction :output :if-exists nil) ...) seems to work 02:59:03 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-68-239-77-4.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:59:43 putting it into a loop breaks it. even if the file doesn't exist, nothing is written 03:04:15 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-396f67682f9859f0] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:07:41 tweek: what exactly do you think ':if-exists nil' is doing? once that file exists, after the first time through the loop, you will not get a stream 03:08:33 with-open-file checks for the file's existence on each call, right? 03:08:44 tweek: you might want to open the file outside the loop, and use better variable names :) 03:09:00 tweek: yes, through a call to OPEN 03:09:10 the idea is to wait until it doesn't exist 03:09:16 opening it outside the loop defeats the purpose 03:10:06 what do you mean exactly? you have another thread that might erase the file? 03:10:12 another process 03:10:22 ahh. 03:10:31 right now I'm trying to get two sbcl instances to call read-move and write-move on each other's files 03:10:53 I'm doing this because this is the way some half-assed Othello player communicates with other players 03:11:36 so, you want to wait for a file to exist before reading it? 03:11:54 and wait for a file to not-exist before writing to it 03:12:03 works in clisp! 03:12:08 clhs probe-file 03:12:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_probe_.htm 03:12:28 that'll work 03:13:16 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 03:13:31 kinda .. you're still going to run into trouble with half-written inconsitent data without some form of locking... 03:13:46 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:13:50 Doesn't the system support atomic file renaming? 03:14:02 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:14:22 Zhivago: you'd think so .. that should solve that problem. 03:15:44 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-29-70.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:15:59 futuresoon [n=futureso@cpe-68-175-67-66.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:16:15 hey i'm trying to pick between lisp and haskell---what are the pros and cons? 03:17:57 haskell is lazy, lisp is eager. 03:18:38 lisp has macros, haskell has partial evaluation. 03:18:51 You'd do better to do some basic research into both. 03:18:58 is lazy the same as static typing? 03:18:58 the first haskell system was written in lisp ... 03:19:18 -!- legumbre` is now known as legumbre 03:19:46 lazy is not the same as static typing. 03:19:53 no, lazy refers to the evaluation strategy, not the type system. 03:21:03 fUD [n=bbills@apnnew9.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:14 -!- fUD [n=bbills@apnnew9.lnk.telstra.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:21:17 [SaboraHombre] [i=flavio30@186.13.154.94] has joined #lisp 03:22:49 -!- [SaboraHombre] [i=flavio30@186.13.154.94] has quit [] 03:23:48 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@c-68-84-2-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:24:04 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:25:47 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:27:48 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-233-254.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 03:28:08 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:33 -!- kinnetica [n=kinnetic@pool-96-240-132-176.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:32:00 -!- nadan [n=ndan@unaffiliated/nadan] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:38:30 Good morning. 03:39:10 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["restart"] 03:39:17 Good evening. 03:40:25 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 03:42:50 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-69-150-57-149.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:17 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:44:28 -!- Bucciarati [n=buccia@212.45.155.126] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:45:42 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:45:52 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:45:56 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:46:01 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 03:46:11 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@dsl-67-158-180-34.taconic.net] has left #lisp 03:46:29 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:46:29 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 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Bucciarati [n=buccia@212.45.155.126] has joined #lisp 04:00:40 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@66.11.161.166] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 04:04:08 -!- dreish [n=dreish@207.138.47.173] has quit [] 04:04:41 sebell [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:19 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-29-70.netcologne.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 04:06:58 -!- kironazs [i=57e2d4ba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-32b986bf74fe977a] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 04:15:09 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:19:03 gonzojive [n=red@c-24-130-53-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:32 -!- pitui` [n=pitui@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:25:09 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:25:19 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:44 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:26:48 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:27:09 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:29:32 I hope this isn't too off topic. is there a good SLIME-like editor for python or ruby? I would like to see how these languages compare to lisp in a REPL-based editor 04:31:13 GrayMagiker [n=steve@97-123-189-76.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:28 gonzojive, there must be likely some thing ... you probably could have better luck asking in a python or ruby channel 04:33:13 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:36:30 -!- CrazyEddy [n=equites@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Success] 04:37:47 google answered this question surprisingly well: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7ij3j/why_there_is_no_slime_for_python_or_ruby_or/ 04:39:10 beta-dog [n=user@88.238.41.136] has joined #lisp 04:42:22 CrazyEddy [n=unembarr@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 04:45:44 not sure how good those bunch of comments might be :P 04:46:23 But if you don't find slime , which is very lisp-dependent , you could still find some REPL framework for those languages 04:46:36 or were you looking for some slime port? 04:46:41 araujo: yeah, but it seems like SLIME is the slickest editor around ;) 04:47:07 araujo: no, just looking for REPL-based editing for other ruby/python with some level of emacs integration 04:47:34 gonzojive, http://common-lisp.net/project/clpython/ ..? x) 04:48:03 speaking of SLIME, is there an emacs command to copy the expression on the REPL to the kill ring or another buffer? 04:50:23 kill-sexp 04:51:26 yeah, you don't really need a repl-specific command for that 05:13:34 -!- CrazyEddy [n=unembarr@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:16:28 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:54 hunchentoot really got its act together with 1.0.0 05:16:59 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Client Quit] 05:17:40 -!- poet [n=tsally2@fermat.cse.uiuc.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 05:17:44 for some reason, on sbcl x86 linux, the one-thread-per-connection taskmaster is slower than the uniprocessing serve-event based on 05:18:01 you can kludge your own thread-pool if you want, that's easy 05:18:18 CrazyEddy [n=internod@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 05:19:17 stuff that's with a text content type is slower than serving binary data. i should probably figure out a way to circumvent the gray-streams layer and do some sort of an :around method that tells the client it's text/html but makes ht believe it's binary data 05:19:24 of course, with the right encoding flags set 05:19:55 all in all, ht 1.0.0 is way cleaner than 0.15.7, but you will need to tweak it further to clock out good performance 05:20:03 I don't see why it's surprising that one thread per connection would be slower. 05:20:23 on LW win32 it pretty much does what i want; serves 50k file at 30 connections per second :-) 05:20:37 hefner: enlighten me, i was told multithreading is a win 05:21:04 well, for large jobs at least, but the task creation time might be a little too taxing for small, one-off jobs 05:21:13 I don't know anything about ht. Are the threads pooled, or created/destroyed? 05:21:26 created and destroyed 05:21:32 well, that isn't free. 05:22:05 but the generic-function protocol is utterly sexy, and gives you the freedom to create/pool the threads as you wish 05:22:09 iirc, sbcl allows threads to be reinitialized. 05:22:11 if all you're doing is IO with no processing to bottleneck you, multiplexing in a single thread ought to be very fast. 05:22:45 And yeah, delegating the finished output to an i/o manager also sounds sensible. 05:22:46 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 05:22:52 also, the default policy is to keep connections alive. i played with turning that on and off and didn't see any difference 05:23:37 so now at least i know hunchentoot doesn't have any inherent problems of its own. you can circumvent whatever it's doing anyway you want. the engineering problem now lies between chair and computer :-P 05:23:59 time to polish up on my APUE and highperformance networking programming 05:24:35 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:25:12 i hate to admit that i never learned how to debug multithreaded programs; had top(1) running and didn't see any difference. /proc//tasks OTOH, had only 17 tasks, even though i told my tester to do 50 concurrent threads. hmmm. 05:26:31 apache-bench seems broken too; i had to run several drakmas in several boxes in tight loops 05:28:20 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 05:35:10 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-192-51.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:06 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609]"] 05:40:07 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:42:21 evening 05:45:23 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 05:47:24 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:47:32 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:38 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 05:50:24 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 05:50:52 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:59:01 spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-43cbd46b01a852db] has joined #lisp 05:59:07 -!- spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-43cbd46b01a852db] has left #lisp 06:00:01 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:13 wentbackward [n=wentback@n219077065141.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 06:15:47 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 06:23:08 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:24:21 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 06:28:21 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl476.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:28:21 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:28:21 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:28:21 -!- zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:28:21 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-69-209-223-131.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:28:21 -!- guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:28:21 -!- kooll [n=samson_t@sd-9780.dedibox.fr] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:28:21 -!- eirik [i=eirikald@tvilling.pvv.ntnu.no] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:28:21 -!- albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:28:21 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:28:21 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:28:32 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 06:28:36 anekos [n=anekos@pl476.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:28:36 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 06:28:36 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 06:28:36 ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-69-209-223-131.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:36 eirik [i=eirikald@tvilling.pvv.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 06:28:36 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 06:28:36 kooll [n=samson_t@sd-9780.dedibox.fr] has joined #lisp 06:28:36 guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 06:28:36 albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 06:28:36 zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 06:32:02 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f51d1.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:32:51 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 06:33:25 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-161-244.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:33:48 good morning 06:36:03 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 06:37:09 good morning mvilleneuve 06:38:44 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit [Client Quit] 06:39:21 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:39:44 -!- sebell [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.1.1"] 06:40:52 i'm gonna ask a silly question, sorry for that, but what does Peter Seibel mean by "dangerous" in the sentence of the introduction part of pcl "I worked first in Perl, learning enough to be dangerous while building an online discussion forum for Mother Jones magazine's Web site" 06:41:15 A little knowledge is a dangerous thing 06:41:34 A superficial competence. 06:42:17 :) 06:42:27 i get it, thanks :) 06:42:33 does anybody know where the slime debian package gets it's version number from? 06:42:50 I build a package from CVS head and now get "Versions differ: nil (slime) vs. 2009-04-03 (swank). Continue? (y or n) " 06:43:43 after startup, slime says "; SLIME 2009-04-03", so it seems to be correct version 06:44:12 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:45:14 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-78-34-217-167.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:47:20 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:53:57 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:54:49 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:00:32 Ragnaroek [i=54a66c54@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0f3f4a2a34d6cd03] has joined #lisp 07:00:46 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:04:33 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DBD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:40 -!- CrazyEddy [n=internod@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:05:48 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-29-70.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:07:02 CrazyEddy [n=camptodr@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 07:07:12 -!- sanguine1 is now known as sanguinev 07:08:06 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:09:57 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 07:10:31 err_ [n=err@adsl-074-166-047-242.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:59 ASau` [n=user@host197-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:13:24 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 07:22:37 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-67.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:25:24 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DBD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:30:34 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:30:49 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:31:20 (SETQ X (CDR Y)) (SETF (GETF X KEY) VALUE) pushes any new entry at the beginning of X, but the new entry is visible in Y with clisp. 07:32:22 push could do it, too (by moving the first element around, instead of prefixing a new cons) 07:34:04 I wonder what the rationale is. It certainly is more costy to move the CAR around and reuse the first CONS, rather than just prepending a new CONS. 07:34:12 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087A6B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:52 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 07:35:31 -!- CrazyEddy [n=camptodr@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:36:05 are you certain? 07:36:31 about the more expensive part ? 07:36:33 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087A6B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:36:46 yes 07:36:49 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087A6B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:31 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-67.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:39:33 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9E22.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:39:40 CrazyEddy [n=disenthr@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 07:39:46 -!- CrazyEddy [n=disenthr@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 07:39:47 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 07:40:22 sohum_ [n=sohum@122.110.5.28] has joined #lisp 07:40:43 CrazyEddy [n=disenthr@114-198-10-180.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:40:43 -!- sohum [n=sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:41:06 -!- sohum_ is now known as sohum 07:43:04 Prepending a cons: create a cons, assign to its car, assign to its cdr, assign the cons to the variable. Moving things around: create a cons, assign to its car, assign to its cdr, assign to the original car, assign to the original cdr. 07:43:14 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 07:43:53 frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has joined #lisp 07:43:55 So, it's one more "asign", but no assign to the variable, which may be more expensive than 2 car/cdr assign. 07:44:22 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:45:05 ah, right. well, as you noted, they aren't equivalent. maybe someone is holding a pointer to the head of the list? 07:45:28 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9E22.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:47:24 Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 07:54:13 -!- frank_s [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:54:16 nostoi [n=nostoi@235.Red-79-157-234.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:46 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.13.141] has joined #lisp 07:59:17 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-78-34-217-167.netcologne.de] has quit [] 07:59:47 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.13.141] has left #lisp 08:02:01 -!- err_ [n=err@adsl-074-166-047-242.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [] 08:02:20 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.235.0] has joined #lisp 08:04:35 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 08:07:59 ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.101.94] has joined #lisp 08:10:25 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:10:37 lumSais [n=Victor@cm127014.red91-117.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 08:16:47 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-112-110.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 08:19:57 spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-db1d8026cac6c2d2] has joined #lisp 08:21:45 -!- spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-db1d8026cac6c2d2] has left #lisp 08:27:41 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 08:28:05 _sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B1BC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:28:08 beach, therep 08:32:59 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@235.Red-79-157-234.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 08:33:18 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:33:20 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-130-53-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:33:49 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-67.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:35:25 Is in Lisp any function which returns a number of digits in number ? like: (foo 123) => 3 (foo 12) =>2 08:35:57 clhs integer-length 08:35:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intege.htm 08:36:24 MrSpec: but you're wrong on the definition of "number of digits", these are _binary_ computers ;-) 08:36:39 in decimal ;) 08:36:56 (log 123 10) 08:36:57 (ceiling (log (integer-length n)) (log 10)) 08:37:08 or indeed, (ceiling (log n 10)) 08:37:35 (ceiling (log (1+ n) 10)) 08:37:55 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 08:38:02 ok thx :) 08:38:10 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 08:38:36 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:38:55 or (1+ (floor (log n 10))) ;) 08:39:02 hah ok :D 08:39:21 But works only when (plusp n). 08:39:41 I'll use ceiling & log ;) 08:41:01 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 08:41:14 Both, I mean. (let ((n 0)) (ceiling (log (1+ n) 10))) -> 0, not 1. 08:41:55 everyone knows zero isn't a number 08:42:07 (null 0)? 08:42:09 (length (princ-to-string n)) 08:42:15 suck it down 08:43:46 Hun [n=Hun@vpn18-169.RZ.FH-Augsburg.DE] has joined #lisp 08:43:53 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-129.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:44:08 one more question, is there any way to do something like : (let ((a 15) (b a))... ) without 2 lets ? 08:44:22 sure, let* 08:44:50 clhs let* 08:44:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm 08:44:55 thx 08:45:17 -!- ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit ["hols"] 08:46:12 I'm a little disappointed no one has correct me with (length (write-to-string n :base 10)) yet. 08:46:44 I checked it, and it was working... 08:46:50 Well, it's so costly. Better to stick with LOG. 08:47:03 MrSpec: (setf *print-base* 2.) 08:47:11 ah 08:49:12 with a basic recursive function that computes factorial sbcl drops to debugger if i try with 100000, is it normal? 08:49:23 i don't think its normal 08:49:24 Yes. 08:50:07 100,000 is ridiculously deep to recurse if you can't guarantee tail-call elimination. 08:50:13 beta-dog: it's overflowing the stack if you don't at least make it recursive 08:50:13 beta-dog: what lead you to think it was normal ? 08:50:21 *tail-recursive 08:50:25 not- 08:50:27 although 100000! is also a ridiculous number 08:50:44 yep. try not printing it after calculating 08:51:17 Art07 [n=user@84.23.62.56] has joined #lisp 08:51:34 hefner: well, it has only about 1.5 million bits. 08:51:42 It could be computed... 08:52:06 what i remember is nearly doubled power of that number was not a problem for allegro, of course i don't want to compare with allegro, but isn't it a small number for stack overflow? 08:52:06 clisp can. 08:52:16 -!- frank_s_ is now known as frank_s 08:53:11 beta-dog: ulimit -s ? 08:53:44 i mean, yes i can possibly handle this by tail-recursion, but i just wanted to know if its spesific to my environment 08:54:01 hmm, i think i forgot to say that i use sbcl on windows :D 08:54:11 Isn't there a similar limitation? 08:54:35 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:55:41 http://vastusutra.blogspot.com/2008/05/emacs-sbcl-slime-and-winxp.html 08:55:41 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-67.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:56:05 there he added a parameter to sbcl 08:56:13 --dynamic-space-size 100 08:56:38 i tried this but it didn't differ the result 08:56:49 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 08:56:52 I can assure you there are more interesting things in life to think about than this. 08:57:09 :D 08:57:18 i know i know 08:57:36 anyway, the dynamic space size is independent of the stack size 08:57:43 cracki [n=cracki@45-221.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:58:01 I don't know if you can change that short of recompiling SBCL (and I've only tried it on linux) 08:59:09 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6EDE6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:10 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.231.123] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:00:26 anyway i don't think i'll stick to win more, everything is a problem on it 09:01:58 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 09:03:34 -!- _Dave2_ is now known as Dave2 09:04:17 Xof: I can't find the original summer of code project proposal for improving the x86 calling convention. 09:04:24 Do you have it somewhere? 09:04:36 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 09:07:45 -!- beta-dog [n=user@88.238.41.136] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:16:51 -!- Art07 [n=user@84.23.62.56] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:21:41 sbcl on windows is tricky 09:27:38 nathanael [n=nathanae@82.113.121.23] has joined #lisp 09:27:54 -!- hefner [n=hefner@scatterbrain.cbp.pitt.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:28:43 -!- nathanael [n=nathanae@82.113.121.23] has quit [Client Quit] 09:30:17 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:36:36 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-68.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:37:51 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a66c54@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0f3f4a2a34d6cd03] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 09:38:56 Ragnaroek [i=54a66c54@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0e7cb993f1e7746c] has joined #lisp 09:46:46 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.231.123] has joined #lisp 09:47:09 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-29-70.netcologne.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 09:47:16 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:47:29 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 09:49:37 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 09:49:45 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.231.123] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:55:35 michaelw: thanks ACL2 is close of what I have asked. 10:02:23 frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has joined #lisp 10:05:05 mega1: probably not, I'm afraid 10:05:19 contains the oldest reference I know of, but the wiki it points to is dead 10:05:53 nadan [n=ndan@unaffiliated/nadan] has joined #lisp 10:06:06 Ogedei: simple-date's asd glue for cl-postgres integration is broken /-: 10:06:34 Ogedei: it relies on cl-postgres being loaded before simple-date, which isn't guaranteed to happen if they appear on the same system's :depends-on list 10:07:06 (order of dependency resolution in dependencies of equal height is undefined in asdf, and often leads to hilarity) /-: 10:07:38 antifuchs: argh. know of any straight-forward solution? 10:07:42 (also, use local-time) 10:09:26 Ogedei: I just thought about splitting the glue out into its own system, and using an :after method on both cl-postgres's and simple-date's asdf:perform method that ensures the glue system gets loaded if the other is present 10:10:04 -!- nadan [n=ndan@unaffiliated/nadan] has left #lisp 10:10:46 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 10:10:49 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:11:02 and I should check out local-time. 10:11:50 -!- frank_s [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:11:54 does it integrate with cl-postgres? 10:12:12 yes, there's code for that in the repository, though I don't think it gets loaded automatically 10:12:23 ok, that might actually make things easier ((: 10:12:32 -!- frank_s_ is now known as frank_s 10:12:32 should I try to cook up a patch to the .asd? 10:12:40 i'll look into fixing simple-date, but busy un-breaking the AllegroGraph build right now :P 10:12:51 oh, if you want to, that'd be great too 10:13:13 cool 10:19:32 Xof: was it about pairing call/ret or did it have a wider scope? 10:22:01 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:23:37 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-78-34-217-167.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:24:11 Ogedei: darcs sent you a patch. hopefully my mail system won't swallow it (: 10:24:56 got it, thanks, looking into it 10:25:01 excellent 10:25:14 it's usually much easier to use 'darcs send -o filename' and then mail the file with your normal mail client 10:25:42 yeah. I ended up setting configuring the local postfix to use smtp auth and a smart host (-: 10:28:15 antifuchs: works for me, pushed to the repo 10:28:19 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:21 thanks! 10:29:03 mega1: I think it was written as having a wide scope, but measurement and pairing call/ret were the main two components as far as I recall 10:29:21 thanks 10:30:12 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 10:30:45 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:32:23 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:32:33 Krystof: Thanks for taking care of the last (!) corrections. 10:32:46 *Krystof* touches wood 10:33:02 I know what you mean. The previous ones were also the last. 10:33:21 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:33:32 KingNato_ [n=KingNato@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 10:34:11 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:34:39 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:56 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:39:21 p0a [n=user@athedsl-372230.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 10:39:38 Hello I'm reading On Lisp, page 86 gives this version of nif 10:39:38 p0a, memo from hefner: look at the function video-info. 10:39:39 p0a, memo from Balooga: To retrieve the dimensions of the SDL display surface, use sdl:width and sdl:height on sdl:*default-display*. 10:39:55 sweet 10:41:06 http://paste.lisp.org/display/78734 10:41:33 What I don't understand is why truncate is used. signum returns -1 for < 0, 0 for = 0 and 1 for > 0, so why is truncate used? 10:42:42 elias` [n=me@cs78208074.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:43:08 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:45:38 p0a: to convert a number-of-any-type to an integer 10:45:46 remember, CASE compares with EQL, not = 10:46:10 so you're saying signum may return a number that is not an integer? 10:46:14 which case would that be? 10:46:21 clhs signum 10:46:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_signum.htm 10:46:22 ie with complex numbers 10:46:47 alright thanks jsnell & kpreid 10:47:09 though graham doesn't mention this... it should be mentioned IMHO 10:49:13 -!- KingNato [n=KingNato@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:51:00 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:51:25 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.228.8] has joined #lisp 10:53:29 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:53:45 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:28 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:54:37 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:13 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-372230.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 10:59:20 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:59:50 -!- gzip4 [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:00:47 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:01:05 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:04:34 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:05:08 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-78-34-217-167.netcologne.de] has quit [] 11:08:23 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-d00705a4569e5d22] has joined #lisp 11:08:43 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-d00705a4569e5d22] has left #lisp 11:11:20 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:11:21 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:11:37 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:12:13 Is there a way get a type-specifier of a class slot? 11:14:17 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:14:28 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:17:05 -!- Hun [n=Hun@vpn18-169.RZ.FH-Augsburg.DE] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:17:46 frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has joined #lisp 11:20:05 something like this: (sb-mop:slot-definition-type (car (sb-mop:class-direct-slots (find-class 'test)))) 11:20:25 for example (declass test () ((a :type fixnum))) 11:21:11 wow, had a pretty bad failure building 1.0.27 with 1.0.27.4. 11:21:31 in code/show.lisp: ; compiling (IN-PACKAGE "SB!INT")unhandled TYPE-ERROR in thread #: 11:21:44 The value 0 is not of type (INTEGER 1 536870908). 11:22:02 anyone recognize this, or should I paste a backtrace? 11:22:30 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:23:08 milanj: thanks! 11:23:27 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:23:43 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 11:23:55 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:24:25 antifuchs: vector-push-extend does not accept 0 for an extension argument 11:24:33 relatedly, don't try to build earlier sbcls with later ones 11:24:43 yeah, I just remembered (-: 11:24:58 donwloading an older binary now to test my latest autobench changes 11:26:50 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:31:14 is it possible to use IF in LET block ? 11:31:23 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:31:43 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:31:53 milanj: How can I get a slot definition by class and slot symbols? 11:31:55 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 11:32:22 snaffu [n=roger@oh-69-34-16-39.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:48 -!- frank_s [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:32:57 MrSpec: in the form, yes 11:33:27 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 11:34:09 (let ((a (eval something))(b somethingelse)... I'd like to return if (< a 0) 11:35:54 well, i assume that you need to complare slot-definitions-name of all slots with the one you need 11:35:58 *compare 11:36:05 check slot-definition-name 11:37:00 milanj: I see, thanks! 11:37:02 also for further references 11:37:09 (apropos "slot" :sb-mop) 11:37:30 or similar 11:41:09 -!- KingNato_ [n=KingNato@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 11:44:55 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:45:07 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:45:34 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 11:46:00 kenjin [n=kenjin@163.152.182.97] has joined #lisp 11:47:06 -!- kenjin [n=kenjin@163.152.182.97] has quit [Client Quit] 11:48:33 sb-mop is only works on SBCL, correct? 11:48:45 s/is// 11:49:52 correct 11:50:09 Ogedei: thanks 11:50:35 see closer-mop for a portable wrapper 11:51:43 Ogedei: seems like elephant is not using closer-mop? 11:52:41 I am using elephant, and I wonder if elephant provides a portable way to get a slot-definition-type. 11:54:24 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:56:19 LostMonarch [n=roby@host119-31-dynamic.50-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:58:19 I thought lisp was only used for AI 11:58:44 Quadrescence: no way! 12:00:34 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:43 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-69-150-57-149.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:07:04 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:24 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:12:11 KingNato [n=KingNato@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 12:13:40 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 12:14:31 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-69-150-57-149.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:27 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-9d728b672a2d141d] has joined #lisp 12:17:50 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-9d728b672a2d141d] has left #lisp 12:22:51 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:39 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d129.mertza.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 12:27:01 durka42 [n=durka@d129.mertza.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 12:28:27 MrSpec: your example is not clear, not even well parenthesized, so we don't really know what you mean. But you can put an expressions everywhere an expression is expected. In the case of the LET operator, this is where I put elipses: (let ((sym ...) (sym ...)) ...) 12:29:48 (block result (let ((a (compute-something)) (b (if (minusp a) (return-from result a) (compute-something-else)))) (do-something-with-b-and-positive-a b a))) 12:29:59 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d129.mertza.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 12:31:39 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:35:55 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:36:12 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:39:02 -!- sohum [n=sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:41:39 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:44:47 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:45:03 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:45:36 -!- lumSais [n=Victor@cm127014.red91-117.mundo-r.com] has left #lisp 12:49:38 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:49:51 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:23 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6EDE6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 12:50:41 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 12:51:23 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 12:55:26 I regret to inform you that common lisp code has been spotted on 4chan. 12:55:53 what is 4chan? 12:55:58 Oops! The secret's leaking! 12:57:23 hypno: Just don't bother. 12:57:52 heh, k. 12:57:56 4chan - 47 definitions 12:57:58 -!- cracki [n=cracki@45-221.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 12:58:25 Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 13:02:51 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.13.141] has joined #lisp 13:04:23 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:04:42 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:05:10 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.13.141] has left #lisp 13:05:21 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:26 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:12:04 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1176023512.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 13:12:59 This question is quite unspecific, but is CL a language that's comparatively harder to optimize (in speed)? 13:13:32 (And I mean "analyze and optimize via the compiler", not by hand) 13:14:19 i want to say no 13:14:48 not because of the language itself anyways 13:15:02 What do you mean? 13:15:21 Or, why do you mean? 13:15:42 because of the paradigms one might use in lisp 13:15:55 chrnybo [n=user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 13:17:05 ace4016: nothing prevents you to provide compiler macros, or to modify your implementation to compile some of your macros into specific and specifically optimized special forms. 13:17:24 true 13:17:36 although someone has to give :P 13:17:38 CL has a lot of provisions and "implementation dependant" stuff specifically designed to allow for optimizations. 13:17:52 Be they space or time optimizations... 13:19:00 are they related? 13:19:28 wentbackward: what do you mean? 13:20:15 space/time 13:20:23 Yes of course. 13:20:29 They're usually complementary 13:20:44 sometimes you give one up for the other though... 13:21:03 But not all provisions allowing optimization relate both. Eg. however FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION is implemented, the speed should remain identical. 13:21:42 How do I ask the SBCL debugger to DESCRIBE the condition which invoked the debugger? 13:22:10 error 13:22:26 Ask SBCL debugger itself typing ? RET 13:23:35 Otherwise, ifyou want CL:DESCRIBE instead of the debugger description: (handler-case (/ 1 0) (error (err) (describe err))) 13:23:50 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:23:55 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087A6B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["I am Locutus of Borg! You will assist us!"] 13:25:10 matimago: Yes, I wanted cl:describe. I was looking for a way to get to what non-existent package was read when I get SB-INT:SIMPLE-READER-PACKAGE-ERROR. 13:25:16 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 13:26:25 error gives it in the description clearly enough. 13:26:52 (handler-case (read-from-string "abc:def") (error (err) (describe err))) will be less clear. 13:27:13 and probably more implementation dependant. 13:27:36 are there any good texts or libs that implement algos for permutations and combinations of lists in lisp? Most of what I've read seems to be in fortran and heavily uses loops. I'm struggling to get a tail recursive permutation function 13:29:03 that's a usual exercise in introductory books 13:30:06 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:32:40 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 13:32:48 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 13:33:49 wentbackward: in general, it's the derecursivation that is hard. Taking an iterative algorithm and transforming it into a tail recursive one is trivial. 13:35:32 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:37:31 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:42 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:38:43 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:39:39 -!- free_thinker [n=willijar@eas-nw709pc01.aston.ac.uk] has left #lisp 13:39:53 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:40:05 free_thinker [n=willijar@eas-nw709pc01.aston.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:40:10 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:42:32 -!- kefka [n=user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:47:00 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:47:20 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:49:20 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:49:21 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 13:49:49 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 13:51:48 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 13:54:26 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:54:47 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:56:42 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCFE65.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:13 legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-57-168.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:57:52 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:01:22 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087A6B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:52 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:02:14 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 14:02:36 willb [n=wibenton@wireless297.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:02:52 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 14:04:03 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:05:36 spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@117.192.7.186] has joined #lisp 14:05:42 -!- spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@117.192.7.186] has left #lisp 14:06:38 chrnybo pasted "Error reporting in sbcl and lw" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78740 14:06:59 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:07:49 (handler-case (read-from-string "foo:baar") (error (err) (princ-to-string err))) ? 14:09:01 anyone know off-hand how to sign-extend registers other than rax in x86-64 assembly? 14:09:48 or s/princ-to-string/princ/ 14:12:17 Indeed, better use print than #+sbcl (apply 'format t (simple-condition-format-control err) (simple-condition-format-arguments err)) ; simple-* conditions are not standard. 14:12:28 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-0-84.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:12:36 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:12:37 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 14:19:01 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:19:12 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 14:20:20 It may be more correct, but I am looking for a string to feed to users, not the unreadable representation of the error. 14:20:43 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:07 The idea is that it will be easier for a client maintainer to fix the error if the package name is included in the response. 14:21:21 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 14:21:51 did you try princ? how unreadable it is? 14:24:29 -!- KingNato [n=KingNato@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:24:37 KingNato [n=KingNato@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 14:25:12 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 14:25:52 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-89d1dab61fa24253] has joined #lisp 14:26:05 chrnybo annotated #78740 "sbcl, pric of condition" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78740#1 14:26:26 s/pric/princ/ 14:26:41 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-89d1dab61fa24253] has left #lisp 14:27:02 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-67.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:27:15 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 14:28:21 looks pretty readable 14:28:22 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:29 (not in READ sense) 14:29:24 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:29:25 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:29:34 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:29:54 <_3b> (if (typep err 'simple-condition) (apply ...) (princ err)) ? 14:30:17 _3b: perhaps... 14:30:36 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:30:56 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 14:31:00 stassats: Would you agree that the first line is geared towards programmers as opposed to users? 14:31:48 why your users want to know about programming errors then? 14:32:33 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:32:45 manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:33:42 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-254-60-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:34:14 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:34:31 stassats: mostly they don't. If their cat trips over the keyboard typing something followed by a colon, I just want to tell them that the package does not exist. Then again, if they have a clue as to the package naming conventions of cl, they may well be comfy with the first line as well... 14:34:42 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:36:46 why then they have access to the full CL if they don't know how to use it? 14:37:33 stassats: They do not. They are typing into a very limited listener. 14:38:16 you have to filter what they type then, and not tell obscure errors about packages 14:40:33 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-99-23-189-189.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:03 HET3 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 14:41:13 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 14:41:55 stassats: I see. 14:42:21 you can escape all symbols they enter 14:43:01 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:43:22 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 14:44:49 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:44:49 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 14:45:18 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:45:29 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 14:46:51 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:48:20 vy pasted "`WITH-TIMEOUT' Using Semaphores in CCL" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78743 14:48:53 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [] 14:49:00 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:49:06 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:49:28 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 14:50:31 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:50:48 vy annotated #78743 "Append Missing `PROCESS-KILL'" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78743#1 14:50:53 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 14:55:11 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 14:55:11 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:56:03 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:57:30 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 14:57:48 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:57:56 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:58:18 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 15:01:04 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:01:29 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 15:02:15 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:02:18 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:54 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:04:16 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 15:04:19 glogic_ [n=glogic@5ess.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:28 schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:04:28 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:23 BrianRice` [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:33 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:10:44 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Connection refused] 15:12:52 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:14:37 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:15:49 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.101.94] has quit ["this is not a quit message"] 15:16:27 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless297.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:16:44 willb [n=wibenton@wireless297.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:16:49 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:16:56 hi, Common Lisp has a procedure to print numbers as English numerals. Is there a French locale for it somewhere? 15:17:05 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:17:29 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:18:00 -!- glogic [n=glogic@5ess.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:18:37 You know what the A in ANSI stands for? 15:18:46 :-( 15:18:56 USA! USA! USA! 15:20:05 Canada is in America too 15:20:13 minion: chant! 15:20:14 MORE PEOPLE 15:20:45 chile too 15:20:58 chile is French-speaking?! 15:21:14 puchacz: CLHS specifies the American English language for this features. There's no notion of locale in CL, and it's not implementation dependant. 15:21:19 -!- phytovor is now known as doxtor 15:22:04 boo. do you guys know if somebody has written such a procedure? 15:22:05 rsynnott: only the Spanish dialect 15:22:45 puchacz: It would be a good exercise in writing French numbers. 15:22:55 puchacz: cl-l10n would be the right place to check 15:23:22 thanks, I'll check 15:24:14 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:25:04 hello Fare 15:25:27 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-78-34-238-79.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:25:39 -!- schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["leaving"] 15:25:40 Fare: Chāo em 15:28:43 -!- HET3 is now known as HEt2 15:28:45 -!- HEt2 is now known as HET2 15:29:47 -!- aunwork [n=aunwork@mail.ionicsoft.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:30:46 -!- pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:31:02 emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:33:37 wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-144-151.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:06 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:41:06 :) 15:41:32 elias` [n=me@cs78208074.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:41:49 *Fare* feels dumb and humbly requires help on some stupid point of XCVB design 15:42:14 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:42:52 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:43:38 spill the beans 15:44:12 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 15:45:25 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:26 ejs0 [n=eugen@29-132-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:42 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:50:05 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:51:01 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:51:59 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit ["Be back later"] 15:53:29 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:54:04 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087A6B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:54:13 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 15:56:57 -!- ASau` [n=user@host197-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["Off!"] 15:57:58 Mikoange1o [i=mikael@chemwarrior.meta.io] has joined #lisp 15:58:08 -!- Mikoange1o [i=mikael@chemwarrior.meta.io] has left #lisp 15:58:54 -!- chrnybo [n=user@148.122.202.244] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:00:14 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 16:02:30 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 16:02:40 Is there anywhere an "eval-when for dummies" like Ron Garret's invaluable introduction to packages? 16:05:04 beach: taking into account the Belgian and (various) Swiss variants, and with an option for the 1990 reform. ;-) Graded by nicest source ;-) 16:07:03 rpg: I'm afraid not. 16:07:31 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:07:45 rpg: which part is unclear? 16:08:01 matimago: Yeah, very interesting indeed. 16:08:18 rpg: The rule of thumb is that :execute is for EVAL, or LOAD (without prior compile-file), COMPILE-TOPLEVEL is toplevel+ compilation time during compile-file, LOAD-TOPLEVEL is toplevel + load time during LOAD after COMPILE-FILE 16:08:31 There must already be differences between American and British English in this respect. 16:08:47 michaelw: I am looking at some code written by a colleage that has a lot of (eval-when ...) in it, because it expands to code with defclass in it. I'm not sure whether this is necessary or just expanding to top-level forms would work as well. 16:09:33 tcr: what's the "toplevel+" indicate in that (I think this is a big source of my confusion). 16:10:27 *beach* personally likes septante, octante and nonante 16:10:54 The defclass seems to need some assistance to avoid following code, reference the class, from blowing up. 16:11:04 rpg: #1=(eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (print 'foo)) will only print FOO if #1# appears in as a toplevel form 16:11:06 hugod_ [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:11:41 *beach* had never heard about "huitante" on the other hand. 16:12:06 beach: some belgian dialect, iiuc. 16:12:18 tcr: (defun bar () (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (print 'foo)) t) prints nothing. 16:12:20 ? 16:12:21 pkhuong: Swiss apparently. 16:12:24 -!- hugod_ [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:12:28 rpg: Right 16:12:31 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:32 hugod_ [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:12:35 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:12:50 rpg: that eval-when isn't at toplevel therefore it reduces to NIL 16:12:54 pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 16:13:07 beach: heard it once in my life. Must have been Stefan "emacs" Monnier (: 16:13:30 I suspect that my confusion actually is a symptom of an underlying confusion about the compile-time semantics of defclass (which I will now look up in the CLHS). 16:13:31 pkhuong: Lucky you! 16:15:56 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-161-244.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:18:05 rpg: I would think that you need eval-when if instances of the class are created at macro expansion time in the same compilation unit than its definition 16:18:23 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:48 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:34 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:24:52 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:28:23 michaelw: that sounds right, because defclass at the top level is enough to get us the ability to define methods, but not enough to create instances. 16:28:30 -!- emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:28:41 And I believe that an ASDF system is all one compilation unit, right? 16:29:37 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.2.12] has joined #lisp 16:29:40 -!- hugod_ [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:30:47 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:30:53 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.2.12] has left #lisp 16:31:49 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:33:04 I believe so 16:34:08 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:34:10 but perhaps I should have said "file" instead of "compilation unit". who knows... 16:34:13 michaelw: Not in the same compilation unit, just in the same file. W-Compilation-Unit does only defer warnings, but does not merge compilation environment 16:34:20 Heh 16:34:44 yeah, thought so 16:35:12 rpg: you can put the class and method definitions in one file, and the code that creates instances in another file 16:35:42 Thanks! 16:35:46 I've found that often the need for eval-when means that I'd better split the code into multiple files 16:36:34 fe[nl]ix: This is from my colleague's unit testing library, in which it seems like entities are modeled as singleton classes.... 16:41:43 Thanks for the help, all. Off briefly for calories... 16:42:04 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 16:43:27 (discard-stack-args nil) ;only meaningful on win32 16:43:55 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:08 I suppose this tells me that someone has worked on win32 callbacks at all, which is good news. 16:44:41 back again.. On ubuntu linux this time.. 16:44:49 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has left #lisp 16:51:40 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.235.0] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:51:48 How can I change function : (remove-duplicates '((A . 2) (A . 0) (B . 1)) :key #'(lambda (x) (car x))) to give me only ((B . 1)) Insted of ((A . 2)(B .1)) ? 16:53:13 for one thing :key #'car will do 16:53:49 MrSpec: I don't think that you can use remove-duplicate for that 16:54:00 younder: ok thx 16:54:02 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:54:08 (it'll always keep one of the duplicated values, too) 16:54:25 hmm remove-if would work ? 16:54:38 remove-if with a member check, but that's O(n^2) on lists 16:54:51 MrSpec: You want (REMOVE 'A list :key #'car) 16:54:51 (or on vectors too, actually) 16:55:13 tcr: I'm not sure that this example is actual live data (-: 16:55:23 tcr: but I dont know what element should I remove 16:56:15 I'm thinking of something like set-difference... hang on (: 16:56:22 Oh, so I will have to use this O(n^2) :\ 16:56:28 oki 16:56:33 hang on (: 16:56:40 :) 16:57:33 You might also find that :key #'car or :key 'car is more concise. 16:57:47 Ah, as tcr already noted. 16:57:58 actually younder, too. 16:58:40 MrSpec: You can just go through it once, and use a hash-table to check for repeated elements 16:58:43 so then I should use mapcar over elements ? 16:58:55 hash-table ? 16:59:03 -!- KingNato [n=KingNato@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [No route to host] 16:59:15 hmm I didnt think about it :D 16:59:46 It's not necessary faster on short lists, mind you. 16:59:54 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 17:00:02 list has max 10elements 17:00:31 then use a list.. 17:00:32 but I use it in brute-force, so this remove will be often use :\ 17:00:44 ok 17:01:25 dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 17:01:52 tcr: could you show me how to do this with hash table ? 17:01:52 omg it's Zhivago ... 17:01:54 *amnesiac* runs 17:01:54 (set-difference *a* (set-difference *a* (remove-duplicates *a* :key #'car)) :key #'car) ; <- not sure if this is prettier or anything (: 17:02:05 with *a* being the list you gave 17:02:25 removes all the elements that have the same key as elements whose duplicates were removed 17:02:26 MrSpec: Try for yourself. It's not hard. 17:02:31 hehe thx antifuchs 17:02:46 tcr: ok 17:02:48 Perfect time to read up on hash-tables in CL 17:02:59 also, I realized that the obvious counterpart to CAR is not CDR, but HOUSE 17:03:15 hash tables for 10 elements is expensive and pointles 17:03:25 maybe with three-elements conses, we can finally have CAR, HOUSE, OFFICE slots 17:03:34 ok, so thin is not good example to try hash-tables 17:03:38 (so that sequence functions finally remember which key to bring) 17:04:05 younder: You can't know. Implementations may implement them extra fast if you pass :size small-number to MAKE-HASH-TABLE 17:04:16 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [] 17:04:32 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-13623.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 17:05:04 antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-715d165ca4f074e0] has joined #lisp 17:05:04 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:05:16 younder: with plists being the alternative? 17:05:27 it'd be interesting to see at whwat point hash tables get faster 17:05:38 though of course it would be imple and apllication specific 17:05:48 plists are usually fater for a samll amount of elements 17:05:52 faster 17:05:54 rsynnott: common wisdom has it at around 20 or so 17:06:00 MrSpec: If you keep the list sorted you can also do better 17:06:19 no, it's not sorted 17:06:32 also, isn't it possible to lock hash tables on a partial basis? 17:06:39 (lock one bucket or something) 17:06:46 Art07 [n=user@84.23.62.56] has joined #lisp 17:07:00 MrSpec: You could perhaps create the list sorted 17:07:23 also if you keep the list sorted merging list's if of O(n) 17:07:28 MrSpec: But for 10element lists all the discussion is pretty academic anyway :) 17:07:34 Hmm my code is so ugly now :/ I was thinking it will be much easier to write 17:07:35 right 17:07:44 It would be hard to make list sorted, ATM 17:08:34 presumably if sufficiently motivated one could make a common wrapper that'd use a hash table or plist behind the scendes depending on element count :) 17:09:33 rsynnott: per-bucket locks might be too much space overhead, but region locking is used, yes 17:09:47 You'd have to wrap the plist in another object to maintain object identity, unfortunately. 17:12:50 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:13:56 rsynnott: see also: deftable 17:14:22 deftable? 17:14:30 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [] 17:15:01 not exactly ANSI CL.. 17:15:40 ah, yes, that looks like the sort of thing 17:15:45 ooh, 17-yo library! 17:15:54 younder: it's not rocket science to forward-port it 17:16:04 norvig worked for harlequin? 17:17:04 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 17:18:10 yes 17:18:33 long time ago 17:21:30 Peter Norvig is usually assosiated with Berkley university or as the teckical director of Google 17:21:38 michaelw: it is, allegedly, ansi cl 17:21:53 rsynnott: clx is older 17:22:36 rsynnott: the (in-package "USER") form there suggests there is a little work to do nevertheless 17:22:40 cl, almost uniquely amongst general purpose languages, seems to end up with a lot of libraries which are considered good enough and never touched again 17:22:45 oh, hmm, yes 17:22:47 Well, he's in charge of research. 17:22:50 it's probably work on gcl ;) 17:23:56 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student164-75.hampshire.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:24:20 UnwashedMeme1 [n=nathan@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:49 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:27:47 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 17:29:45 tsuru` [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:58 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:31:38 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:31:39 -!- younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:32:37 Anybody here who knows where the debian/ubuntu slime package gets its version number from? 17:32:53 from changelog 17:32:58 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:33:13 well, so does vanilla slime 17:34:56 stassats: I put the changelog file in /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/slime but I still get "Versions differ: nil 17:34:56 (slime) vs. 2009-04-03 (swank). Continue? (y or n) " 17:35:33 I also deleted all elc files 17:35:34 just don't use slime from debian 17:35:45 <_3b> if you mean the protocol version, you probably don't want to try to trick it like that 17:36:32 _3b: I don't want to trick it. I built the packages from CVS head (slime _and_ swank) and know that they match. 17:36:49 <_3b> debian package breaks emacs for you, you need to purge it first 17:37:06 <_3b> (not just uninstall, since then it leaves it even more broken) 17:37:18 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-168-238-136.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 17:37:28 <_3b> or you could delete the config file under /etc/ somewhere that loads debian's slime 17:37:39 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-d774367b96f5f052] has joined #lisp 17:37:58 _3b: you mean it is not possible to upgrade the debian slime to the latest version of CVS head? 17:38:40 <_3b> well, i suppose it might be, never actually tried to do it with the debian package still there 17:38:48 <_3b> did you build a deb, or just install over it? 17:39:27 _3b: I built a deb (in fact two: cl-swank...deb and slime...deb) 17:39:40 <_3b> either way, check /etc/emacs/site-start.d/*slime* and see if it looks right 17:39:52 _3b: thanks. will do. 17:40:04 <_3b> possibly adjusting for emacs version 17:42:56 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:43:13 _3b: hmm. nothing special in there. maybe it has to do with the byte-compilation 17:44:01 <_3b> dunno, i just use a local install to avoid that sort of problem :) 17:44:44 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087A6B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:45 <_3b> looks like deb slime is modified to look for changelog in "/usr/share/doc/cl-swank/changelog" 17:50:11 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:50:18 _3b: that file exists and has "2009-04-03" in it 17:50:34 <_3b> is your version modified to look there? 17:50:47 _3b: wait. I'm checking 17:52:23 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 17:53:24 <_3b> actually, looks like http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-common-lisp/slime.git;a=summary has current code, and might be set up to build more easily 17:54:10 _3b: no. the function contains (let ((changelog (concat slime-path "ChangeLog"))) 17:54:37 -!- a-s [n=user@92.81.117.113] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:54:49 <_3b> probably easiest to just use that git repo then 17:55:27 _3b: will pull and compare. 17:55:44 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 17:56:22 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 18:02:14 emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:05:22 severe newbie question: what is the easiest way to get my REPL prompt back when I have sent my REPL into an endless loop? I tried both "C-c C-b" and "M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp" but neither of these seemed to work so I killed the REPL buffer - is there a better way? 18:05:38 the above is a SLIME question 18:06:08 try C-c C-C? 18:06:27 though restarting the inferior lisp should almost always work... 18:07:14 apparently C-c C-C is bound to the same function as the C-c C-b that I tried 18:07:23 maybe I just didn't give it enough time, it was really stuck 18:10:05 C-c C-c C-c C-c C-c C-c C-c usually works for me when i'm stuck in a loop somewhere 18:10:57 I see, thanks 18:15:33 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:23:35 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:24:25 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 18:24:30 m4thias` [n=user@39.84-48-162.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:29:14 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 18:29:32 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:04 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:33:25 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 18:34:58 silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-126-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:14 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has left #lisp 18:36:43 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 18:37:08 younder [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 18:38:24 younder: I thought you were banned, no? 18:38:30 I am working on PAIP 18:38:36 not anymore 18:38:54 You must have sworne to behave so many times. 18:38:54 /wii younder 18:39:02 hi, younder :) 18:39:13 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-160-108.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:01 I work with a post doctorate at the university of edinburough these days 18:40:10 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.228.8] has quit ["Raise your glass to the comrades we've lost"] 18:40:11 -!- pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:40:17 Machine intelligence... 18:41:12 it is then sort of ironic that you can't spell Edinburgh 18:41:25 lol 18:41:38 That's me 18:41:46 _3b: just for the records. I checked the slime git vs. CVS. There are a small number of differences. xref.lisp is removed (license reasons?) and the path to the mentioned changelog is hard-coded. 18:41:48 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:42:17 which git? 18:42:49 michaelw: I know math.. spelling is anothermatter 18:42:57 stassats: the debian package git at http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-common-lisp/slime.git;a=summary 18:43:39 Anyhow I am on a ubuntu linux system now 18:43:56 using SBCL 18:44:01 well, that debian's, debian has everything "revamped" 18:44:01 younder: I'll believe it when I see you connecting with an ed.ac.uk host 18:44:53 hmm, debian slime is probably best avoided :) 18:44:53 I start at edinbourough in august 18:45:23 that may be an archaic spelling of the word, of course 18:45:44 In the mean time i am at my apprtment in Oslo. 18:46:17 rsynnott: building my own deb from the CVS sources works well. Apart from that annoying message about the version of slime being nil. 18:47:01 and the message goes away when I remove all .elc files (contrary to what I said previously; just checked again) 18:48:04 Edinbugh is spelled wrong! 18:48:06 lol 18:48:16 younder: just be careful not to spell it that way on any forms, or you will end up in beuraucratic hell 18:48:29 true 18:48:44 (banks, especially, love to sieze on a spelling mistake so that they can make things more difficult) 18:48:51 hmmm 18:49:18 younder: are you becoming a doctor ? .. are you using lisp for ai ? 18:49:21 (my bank spells my name differently depending on whether they're talking about credit cards or everything else) 18:49:55 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:02 post doctorate 18:50:30 as an unschooled person that means nothing to me :) 18:50:42 rsynnott: thats probably because CC data and account data are living i separate systems 18:50:46 i have designed my own language 'formula 1' 18:51:06 better than lisp ? :P 18:51:13 indeed, but they apparently managed to do it themselves :) 18:51:23 Formel Eins auf Deutsch, i presume? 18:51:51 based on mathematica, Oz, and Haskell, and of cource Lisp 18:52:27 The world would have been a better place if banking software was written in Lisp. 18:52:37 yup 18:52:43 (I filled in the form for the credit card, specifying that I wanted it to be auto-paid. They gave me the credit card but initially would not setup auto-pay because my name was different, even though I set up the credit card from my account, using their online thing) 18:53:15 the world would be a better place if banking software was written by sane people 18:53:31 the language is a minor matter compared to the stark raving insane design 18:53:57 younder: do you know of any uptodate lisp ai software ? 18:54:41 kami-: try git://git.boinkor.net/slime.git 18:54:51 lhz: ? 18:56:21 younder: I'm looking for an lisp version of amygdala or subset 18:57:05 I base my research on Baesin networks. So I amede a compiler that is efficient as the one for Fortran. 18:57:45 sorry about my spelling 18:58:03 younder: spell it "Dunedin"! It's easier. 18:58:16 lol 18:58:28 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@static-70-108-241-27.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:04 -!- bob_f is now known as bobby 18:59:08 A lot of thougt and care went into the design.. 18:59:19 younder: bayesian networks ? .. I'm looking for spiking neural networks in lisp. 19:00:18 Neural networks are inefficient 19:00:58 well, they have their applications, though 19:01:11 (also, 'perceptron' is a wonderful word) 19:01:21 You need to look at how the neurons work in group 19:01:48 lhz: use poplog! 19:02:08 *drewc* has always wanted an excuse to use poplog 19:02:18 younder: probably, but mostly I find them hard to program due to that they can learn and overcome your software bugs. 19:02:26 poplog is a good language 19:03:20 I made a mathematicaly verifiable langauge 19:03:25 it seems less a language than a collection of said 19:03:42 based on ACL2 19:04:03 plus the bits on floating point 19:04:32 rap424 [n=ryan@c-67-182-172-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:52 poplog is more of an AI platform than a language really, pop-11 is the language, but it also supports common lisp, ml, and prolog 19:05:56 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:06:06 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a66c54@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0e7cb993f1e7746c] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 19:06:32 Ragnaroek [i=54a66c54@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e1d81de3465bc262] has joined #lisp 19:08:45 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:08:49 -!- bobby is now known as bob_f 19:09:27 -!- dfox_ [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:09:32 -!- tweek [n=tweek@host-231-137-111-24.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:11:52 -!- Art07 [n=user@84.23.62.56] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:12:32 Well, today I invented a new revolutionary and very efficient method for synthesizing sound, so I think I'll call it a day, and have a glass of wine. 19:12:41 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 19:12:52 bordeaux wine, of course 19:13:04 beach: sounds like a productive day! 19:13:05 beach: if you did that why not have two? 19:13:11 Fare: Sure, côte de Bourge actually. 19:13:29 rap424: too tiring! 19:13:41 drewc: I can't complain. 19:14:01 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:14:08 rap424: oh, glasses rather than days. You bet! 19:14:23 *stassats* tried today to distort sound with no luck 19:14:39 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:15:09 well I hope it can enate sound on this dell dimension 5051 19:15:37 it should hardly be machine-specific :) 19:16:02 rap424: In fact I agree with a French colleague of mine who works for the water company, that you have more and better ideas when under the influence, but then you need to be totally clean when working out the details. Luckily, grad students work out the details these days :) 19:16:23 beach: lol 19:16:37 tell the froggy I am woring on it 19:16:39 beach: I'll be a grad student one day 19:16:41 beach: he came to that conclusion /under the influence/ right? ;) 19:16:44 given the drinking habits of grad students it mightn't be all that lucky ;) 19:17:35 I had a moment of clarity last night while "under the influence" 19:17:44 lol 19:18:35 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:47 *rsynnott* rapidly becomes useless when 'under the influence' 19:19:11 have another drink 19:19:26 younder: I think I will 19:19:31 hypno: This being a very mature person, I am sure he had a lot of experience before concluding that. And I tend to agree, actually! 19:19:35 farewell hooligans 19:19:39 -!- rap424 [n=ryan@c-67-182-172-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:20:28 rsynnott: as long as they stay sober when working on the problem I gave them, I don't care. 19:20:43 I have programmed computers for 30 years... 19:20:54 lol 19:21:17 younder: So either you are older than you come across, or you started very early. 19:21:35 I am 41 19:21:48 you are older than you come across 19:21:48 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 19:21:48 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:22:03 whatever 19:22:11 yeah, not important. 19:22:13 beach: you know.. given my prior (rhetoric) "question", "a lot of experience" doesnt constitute credibility. ;) 19:22:20 I fell in the wine barrel when I was a kid, the effects on me are permanent. 19:22:26 younder: the same is probably true for me. 19:22:52 Fare: are you also wearing blue&white striped pants? :) 19:23:17 maybe that's why I have all these ideas, but can never work out the details 19:23:18 (perhaps I wanted to say "trousers" there) 19:23:20 hypno: Of course. But in the case of the person who told me that, I trust him. 19:23:31 Fare: excellent! 19:23:40 rpg [n=rpg@97-127-65-181.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:46 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:53 Fare: I normally attribute that to laziness, in myself :) 19:23:57 beach: heh. sure. i'm just yanking your chains. :) 19:24:14 hypno: Bah, I knew that! 19:24:21 Fare: what's the problem? 19:24:53 Tordek pasted "time-delta" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78757 19:24:59 dlowe, which problem? 19:25:02 dlowe: No, you don't understand. It's not a problem. Or perhaps only to others. 19:25:11 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 19:25:26 is it ok to build closures like that? ie, "proper style"? 19:25:34 Fare: (11:41:43 AM) ***Fare feels dumb and humbly requires help on some stupid point of XCVB design 19:25:56 Tordek: I think you'd be happier using lambda 19:26:09 dlowe: He should have left the "working out the details" part to someone else. 19:26:29 dlowe, oh -- that one is just me being stupid writing a graph transformation algorithm 19:26:32 dlowe: how, make a function (make-timer) that returns a function? 19:26:39 I can't agree with myself on the graph representation 19:26:41 clhs lambda 19:26:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_lambda.htm 19:26:50 Tordek: try that link 19:27:07 Tordek: just what you're doing now, but returning a lambda, should be fine 19:27:10 I know what a lambda is; but I don't get how it fits into it 19:27:21 Tordek: what are you expecting that code to do? 19:27:36 and am vaguely considering using AP5-like techniques to generate the graph node classes from something more declarative that can generate indexes and back-pointers from a relational description 19:27:42 yeah ou est la docstring? 19:27:47 every call to (time-delta) returns the time since the last call to (time-delta) 19:28:57 but even doing things manually -- I'm not sure where to start. 19:29:19 problem is -- I'm trying to build a tower of abstraction from the top down, which doesn't work very well. 19:29:26 in that case you possibly don't need the def reset-timer bit 19:29:29 most tower builders build from the bottom up 19:29:56 -!- emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:30:03 there is a building in dublin, and also one in toronto or somewhere, which was built from the top down :) 19:30:07 Of course, if you have a crane to do the heavy lifting, you can build top down -- but how do you build the crane? 19:30:22 rsynnott, if you have a link, I'm interested 19:30:32 Tordek annotated #78757 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78757#1 19:30:34 Fare: You build it left to right, then rotate 90 degrees 19:30:36 like that? 19:30:53 Tordek: just like that 19:31:03 Fare: http://ireland.archiseek.com/buildings_ireland/dublin/southcity/dame_street/central_bank.html 19:31:05 Tordek: of course, you could just try it... 19:31:10 S11001001 annotated #78757 "hint" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78757#2 19:31:23 (admittedly, the support tower was build from the ground up, but the rest the other way round) 19:31:29 oh well there you go 19:31:55 isn't mentioned there, but at some point they actually had to remove a floor or two and drop the whole thing for planning reasons 19:32:21 clhs fdefinition 19:32:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fdefin.htm 19:32:25 oh well 19:32:57 rsynnott, I don't see anything about it being built top-down 19:33:08 that is totally wrong 19:33:18 Fare: "The floors are all suspended from the twin service cores at 12 support points by the steel trusses visible on the facades. During construction each floor was built at ground level and then hoisted into place with all its service equipment and fittings in place." 19:33:33 so the top floor was built first, then raised to the top 19:33:34 and so on 19:33:44 there's a video of it somewhere 19:36:03 it's totally fucked 19:36:09 lol 19:36:55 pjb [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has joined #lisp 19:37:03 This is the (recent) traditional way of building certain structures like water towers. 19:37:20 You want to know how it should be constructed? 19:37:27 ok, they raised one floor each time -- not the whole building 19:37:34 yep 19:37:40 what I've always wanted to do is, raise the whole building. 19:37:54 now you'll tell me there's the towers of hanoi algorithm... 19:38:43 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 19:39:17 Fare: that sounds overly impractical 19:39:42 The towers on hanoi angorim is what it is.. 19:40:09 the offending building is the only one on the street newer than about 1950, which makes it all the more inconguous 19:40:33 you need a new perspecive 19:42:02 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 19:42:53 needed it for years 19:43:21 high heels? 19:43:56 Will you take the word of a scottsman? 19:44:25 no true scottsman would give me his word 19:44:34 lol' 19:44:56 now that's the kind of understanding that has allowed the Auld Alliance to stand for so long. 19:45:43 I am a norwegian going scott 19:45:48 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:46:06 perhaps i can help 19:46:15 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:46:32 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:06 Baughn [n=svein@084202037181.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 19:48:10 fe[nl]ix: is git://git.boinkor.net/slime.git the official source or the CVS? 19:48:44 fe[nl]ix: nm. just saw "converted with fromcvs/togit" 19:48:47 go to: debian source: 19:48:58 kami-: CVS is the official repo 19:49:01 Is there a latex package (or (la)tex-emitting thingy, at least) that automatically inserts hyperref URLs? 19:49:01 yawn 19:49:13 fe[nl]ix: thank you 19:50:04 Baughn: wrong channel? 19:50:13 younder: maybe I can borrow your word 19:50:17 I use debian too.. 19:50:39 stassats: It seems like the sort of thing this channel is more likely to know than #latex, though 19:50:57 lol 19:51:02 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 19:51:12 Greetings! 19:51:20 I'll give it back with interests 19:51:29 Baughn: that's not a good reason to ask random questions 19:51:41 (just by translating to French, I'll give you 10% more words back on average) 19:52:01 stassats: Typesetting CL source is out of bounds? Ah, #lisp, how I missed thee.. 19:52:04 Very well, then. 19:52:05 -!- Baughn [n=svein@084202037181.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 19:52:13 *rsynnott* blinks 19:52:15 well 19:52:34 are there assembly-language libraries for x86 to implement multiple threads? 19:52:56 I've gotten the bug, again, to play around with CL as a shell. Browsed over a page describing using CLISP as a shell -> http://clisp.cons.org/clash.html . 19:53:00 give me sound with debian... (ubuntu) 19:53:11 mogunus: c libraries can be used from assembler too. libpthread should do ok. 19:53:11 I'm trying to understand sbcl threading code, and it looks like it uses either posix semaphores or futexes 19:53:18 next time someone will ask how engrave lisp code on wood 19:53:34 Does anyone have any experience with this they'd like to share? Is there a standard CL command for passing commands to the OS? 19:53:49 yes 19:53:50 tmh: no. But each implementation provides one or more. 19:53:57 pjb: would that work for building a compiler targetting bare metal? 19:54:19 jlebrech [n=jlebrech@5ad7aa72.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 19:54:21 hii 19:54:29 SBCL? 19:54:50 mogunus: no, for bare meta, you have to implement the kernel itself, so no predefined library. Well, there may be some stuff in C written for real-time or other embedded software. Nothing free AFAIK. 19:54:54 what is this sound generating branch of lisp its awesome 19:55:30 mogunus, problem is thread support cannot be retrofitted in existing libraries 19:56:01 tmh: you mean, CFFI ? 19:56:05 so what should I read to implement a multithreaded kernel for a lisp? 19:56:09 tmh: or you want a syscall generator? 19:56:10 http://www.cl-user.net/asp/8yz3/sdataQIIXtNhW$uSXDQ3OQypX8yBX8yBXnMq=/sdataQu3F$sSHnB== 19:56:12 mogunus: but the core of it is not really hard to write in assembler on a processor such as x86. There are all the primitive op code needed. 19:56:27 pjb: and I check the intel manuals for those? 19:56:29 yawn 19:56:52 mogunus: perhaps you could start reading selected parts of the linux or bsd kernel. 19:57:05 I've been looking at the minix book 19:57:08 mogunus, what do you actually want to do? 19:57:16 Fare: Hmm, maybe syscall generator, but I was actually thinking of something you could pass 'ls' to that would print the result. 19:57:20 Yes, minix too can be studied. 19:57:23 Fare: I want to write a tiny lisp based on the pi-calculus 19:57:31 tmh: you mean like scsh, but for CL ? 19:57:33 targeting bare x86 19:57:45 My sound doesn't work 19:57:54 mogunus, you could start from a COLA 19:58:01 mogunus, or from gerbils 19:58:09 or from termite 19:58:17 or from Erlang-in-Lisp 19:58:24 mogunus: do you know Movitz? http://www.cliki.net/Movitz 19:58:26 Fare: Basically. I've only browsed over the scsh page, never actually used it. Just thought it might be an interesting way to kill some time. Take a break. 19:58:26 and i have a 24 watt amplifier 19:58:29 younder: how is this related to lisp? 19:58:43 pjb: yes, I've been trying to read movitz too 19:58:57 stassats: I don't know 19:59:00 tmh: if you come up with a useful CLSH, I'm interested 19:59:11 Fare: cola I've heard of, gerbils I haven't 19:59:35 Fare: Have you seen CLASH? -> http://clisp.cons.org/clash.html 19:59:52 small vaguely unnerving animals, which may occupy transparent plastic balls 20:00:47 I've seen the docs of it 20:00:51 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:01:44 mogunus: http://web.media.mit.edu/~vyzo/gerbil/index.html 20:02:14 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 20:02:20 Fare: I think I need to look at scsh in more detail, at least as a point of reference. 20:02:58 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-160-108.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:03:09 younder: so your word is about sound in debian? 20:04:14 http://vimeo.com/2735394?pg=embed&sec= 20:04:49 what's there? 20:05:26 Ah, interesting... Part of the reason that I'm interested in doing this in asm is, I read a recent research paper on the pi-calc where they compile it to a virtual asm running on the jvm 20:05:45 mogunus, what do you really want to do? 20:06:18 remember, if you do concurrency seriously, you'll want to have PCSRing, which is a bitch to do in asm 20:06:47 trivial-shell -> http://common-lisp.net/project/trivial-shell 20:07:02 Fare: write a pi-calc based lisp that generates asm code and can run without an operating system 20:07:07 Portable functions for interacting with the OS. 20:07:48 Use bang (!) to escape to shell from the REPL -> http://dan.corlan.net/shelisp/shelisp_manual.html 20:07:53 Hi, is it OK to remove entries from hashtables while looping on keys? `(loop for ,var-key being the hash-key in ,hash do (progn ,@body)) 20:07:54 "without an operating system". ahem. 20:08:06 on the one hand you really should look at COLAs 20:08:19 (they take it seriously to run with OR without an OS) 20:08:20 puchacz: yes. 20:08:33 pjb: thanks 20:08:34 puchacz: I mean, only the entry you are currently iterating on. 20:08:41 may wanna look at *LISP and other old such dialects 20:09:06 Fare: theoretically I would create whatever bits of operating system are necessary. is it possible to do that with the programming language I write? I'm unsure how bootstrapping works. all the OS textbooks I have do everything in C. 20:09:16 pjb: is it described somewhere? 20:09:27 clhs maphash 20:09:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_maphas.htm 20:09:36 and probably on the pages of loop too. 20:09:44 pjb: thanks 20:09:54 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:10:06 mogunus, you CAN do it in ASM, but it's a major pain in the butt to write and maintain. 20:10:06 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:32 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 20:11:24 especially since what you do in ASM can have wildly different perf characteristics depending on whether you're running on that processor or that other processor, in normal mode or in virtualized mode, etc. 20:11:59 benny` [n=benny@i577A1209.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:13:33 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:13:45 Fare: what I'm really unclear on is how I would write a compiler for language Y, and an OS written in language Y to host programs written in language Y. From minix it seems like I would only need to write parts of the kernel in asm. 20:16:21 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:17:28 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:17:31 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:32 I'm not sure why you would even WANT to do it. 20:17:39 given limited resources 20:18:03 but the correct way is to (1) think about the abstract execution model you want to provide 20:18:22 (2) test that model on top of an existing OS 20:19:00 (3) when you're satisfied, go for bare hardware if you find the loss of functionality and/or gain in performance is worth it 20:19:17 (3a) try in a virtual machine first (say, qemu, etc.) 20:19:56 and (1) is usually the interesting part 20:20:01 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:20:06 if you have no answer to (1) don't bother with (3) 20:20:23 Definately have an answer for 1. 20:20:34 So really, it would make more sense to prototype a compiler in CL first. 20:20:41 OK -- how do you solve the PCLSRing issue? 20:21:01 I have *no* idea what that stands for. 20:21:20 jfgi 20:21:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCLSRing 20:21:40 http://fare.tunes.org/tmp/emergent/pclsr.htm 20:21:42 Oh: pi calc is asynchronous. 20:21:59 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:22:09 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:12 doesn't help you when your OS has to kill a thread 20:22:24 or you want to debug something 20:22:33 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:23:21 unless you consider that "hanging until rebooted" is a correct behaviour -- which most UNICes do. 20:25:46 cigarette-burn [n=user@88.238.41.136] has joined #lisp 20:25:49 similarly to the way that functional languages bind a bunch of "default" symbols (list, etc) and create a context for their programs, I was thinking of defining a "process harness," with a default channel for system control that automatically returns the whole process. 20:25:50 mogunus, in other words, it's still synchronous at the CPU level, and *you* the OS writer, have to deal with it, even if you shield your users from it 20:25:53 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A14D8.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:26:21 which takes care of killing processes while maintaining the semantics that I want, but not debugging. 20:26:40 I don't understand what you mean by "process harness" 20:26:44 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:20 are there system calls? what if you try to "return the whole process" while in the middle of a system call? 20:28:06 are there multiple threads that spawn other threads? What is the "whole process" when its computation is divided amongst thousands of threads? Which are or aren't part of "the whole process"? 20:28:33 You may have to answer these questions before you can propose something usable 20:28:45 (Erlang for instance has "process trees") 20:28:56 system calls are messages, and the "whole process" is a tree 20:29:04 -!- glogic_ is now known as glogic 20:29:09 whatever 20:29:19 younder? 20:29:28 -!- jewel_ is now known as jewel 20:29:31 hopefully using messages means that the server executing the call recovers from "my recieve channel is gone" gracefully. 20:30:01 by hanging indefinitely? 20:31:08 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-129.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:31:11 I'm unsure. I'm trying to decide between sending the reply to a null channel, or rewinding the actions that led to the reply being generated. 20:31:29 I've got a couple textbooks on pi-calc ordered, so hopefully I can get better answers out of them. 20:31:59 The research papers I've read are all much less practical than these texts are supposed to be. More concerned with the formalism/compilation in an ideal environment than anything else. 20:32:15 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 20:32:37 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f51d1.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:34:18 mogunus, have a look at what Erlang does. Probably also at what Oz does. 20:35:01 Yeah, I really need to get into erlang... 20:36:14 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.53.49] has joined #lisp 20:40:44 -!- rpg [n=rpg@97-127-65-181.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:46:05 [*sigh*] The problem with a full day of productive research is that you have to deal with accumulated admin email in the evening 20:46:25 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 20:46:52 -!- cigarette-burn [n=user@88.238.41.136] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:48:30 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:49:09 if you have a full life of productive research, you can hopefully procrastinate into dealing with the admin email in the after-life. 20:49:55 -!- silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-126-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:50:08 wishful thinking 20:50:28 cigarette-brn [n=user@88.238.41.136] has joined #lisp 20:50:39 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless297.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:50:58 psheldr [n=Miranda@217.13.173.123] has joined #lisp 20:51:16 I mean, I probably could, but the consequences would be pretty sever, like my not sleeping at night, etc. 20:51:39 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:51:43 -!- cigarette-brn [n=user@88.238.41.136] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:56:15 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 20:57:22 -!- ejs0 [n=eugen@29-132-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:57:31 -!- antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-715d165ca4f074e0] has left #lisp 20:58:19 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:43 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 21:00:38 matley [n=matley@83.225.47.0] has joined #lisp 21:01:38 is it possible to check which functions in my program was never used ? 21:02:48 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-9-93.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:03:19 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:03:30 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student167-193.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 21:03:54 i think that would be implementation specific. iirc, sbcl had/have some clever code walker that colored the code as to which paths was executed, and to what degree, and so forth. i cant for the life of me recall the name tho. 21:04:33 sb-cover 21:04:39 it's distributed with sbcl 21:05:39 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a66c54@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e1d81de3465bc262] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:05:40 does it do run-time analysis or code analysis? 21:05:48 runtime 21:06:02 -!- snaffu [n=roger@oh-69-34-16-39.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:06:09 snaffu [n=roger@oh-69-34-16-39.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:23 how can I run sb-cover ? 21:06:25 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:45 first, you read the documentation 21:06:55 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/sb_002dcover.html#sb_002dcover 21:06:56 it is in sbcl ? 21:07:02 ok thx :] 21:07:43 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:08:58 ejs0 [n=eugen@102-195-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:28 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:07 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 21:10:24 slyrus___ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:16 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:11:20 -!- slyrus___ is now known as slyrus 21:12:12 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-216-036.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:53 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.47.0] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 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23:00:38 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-98.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:01:28 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:03:41 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-78-34-238-79.netcologne.de] has quit [] 23:04:04 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-70-11.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:07:12 -!- cgrtt-burn [n=user@88.238.41.136] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:07:52 cgrtt-burn [n=user@88.238.41.136] has joined #lisp 23:08:33 proq` [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 23:08:33 -!- Noll_Noll [n=28@c-ee70e253.4542024--62697410.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 23:10:33 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-70-11.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:10:34 -!- cgrtt-burn [n=user@88.238.41.136] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:16:47 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-112-110.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:04 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1176023512.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:19:55 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-98.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:20:16 -!- ejs [n=eugen@102-195-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:21:15 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:22:36 cgrtt-burn [n=user@88.238.41.136] has joined #lisp 23:25:16 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 23:27:08 ejs [n=eugen@102-195-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:53 in windows, how can i get the drive letter name that sbcl.exe is running in? 23:31:58 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:32:00 (pathname-device *default-pathname-defaults*) ? 23:32:01 i want to use it in a usb stick and i need some way of getting drive letter since it changes among pcs 23:32:13 hmm 23:32:32 does it work? because i don't know 23:32:47 stassats`: is this directly gets the drive letter that contains sbcl file? 23:33:27 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:33:33 i don't know because i don't have windows, that was my guess 23:34:10 :) 23:34:32 stassats`: a pretty well guess then :) 23:34:46 stassats`: worked, thanks :) 23:34:54 -!- benny` is now known as benny 23:35:09 "educated guess" 23:36:23 :) 23:38:40 -!- manby-ace [n=manby-ac@88-96-24-54.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:40:08 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:41:06 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCFE65.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 23:41:50 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:32 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 23:45:39 chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-094-216-205-041.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:02 apo_ [n=apo@pD9E7C8A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:16 -!- apo [n=apo@pD9E7F078.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:53:41 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-216-036.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:54:43 doylent [n=doylent@host174-130-dynamic.55-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:59:28 Noll_Noll [n=28@c-ee70e253.4542024--62697410.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:59:45 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:59:48 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"]