00:02:36 -!- buggarage_ [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-241.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:03:14 gtasso [i=ca5027a2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-05633521dbbca11d] has joined #lisp 00:05:22 hi all 00:05:40 anybody with experience teaching lisp in secondary schools ? 00:06:37 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:36 ravster [n=user@dsl-67-55-20-20.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:39 Hello all 00:11:43 buggarage [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-241.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:13:53 hey ravster 00:14:43 -!- creddy [n=pamphlet@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:15:21 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p3211-ipbf2908marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Instain to the do way"] 00:15:28 beta-dog [n=user@88.238.33.229] has joined #lisp 00:15:36 -!- crod [n=cmell@p3211-ipbf2908marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Instain to the do way"] 00:22:49 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["leaving"] 00:24:27 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:38 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 00:26:13 -!- beta-dog [n=user@88.238.33.229] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:26:32 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 00:26:38 beta-dog [n=user@88.238.33.229] has joined #lisp 00:28:06 I was just asked "Is 2.3 thousand lines a lot in Lisp-terms? What can you do in 2.3 thousand lines?" from a non-programmer. How would you guys describe it? 00:28:18 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 00:28:27 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 00:28:33 Or rather, how would you answer those questions? 00:29:18 2.3 thousand lines of what? 00:29:40 Common Lisp 00:30:14 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 00:30:34 saikat [n=saikat@dsl081-073-197.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:12 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:33:11 Quadrescence: you could look around on ohloh.net for lisp projects. Ohloh reports lines of code, so that might give you an idea. For instance, it claims that Clozure CL is about 280K lines of code. ASDF is about 1600 00:33:47 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 00:34:22 'lines of code' is a BS metric anyway 00:34:25 your friend is a drooler 00:34:28 get new friends 00:34:30 -!- tweek___ is now known as tweek__ 00:34:59 tweek__: >_> 00:36:05 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279776576.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:38:39 sloccount says mcclim is 117453 locs, and maxima 303464 00:39:14 well, you can write an assembler for a simple CPU in less than a thousand lines, so you ought to be able to add a compiler for something approximating C without syntax in the remaining 1,300 00:39:32 hefner: I just don't know how I would explain this to the "lay person" 00:40:17 what's the advantage to using sbcl or openMCL or any of these other implementations over GNU clisp? 00:40:20 why a lay person is asking such question? 00:40:29 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:35 ignoring all the 'use whatever implementation you 'feel' is best for the situation' 00:41:02 tweek__: they are fast, they have threads 00:41:11 stassats: Because this lay person isn 00:41:52 't someone who just says "oh cool" in an ignorant fashion, and seeks to understand a little more to be a bit more informed and whatever 00:42:07 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:42:09 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 00:42:21 stassats: A more realistic number for mcclim is about 70k, of which 20k is the editor substrate. 00:43:06 that doesn't count example code, alternate backends, etc. 00:44:05 those are physical lines, of course 00:44:32 *hefner* compares 20k lines for Drei (the climacs-derived editor) versus 3,000 for the simpler, deprecated Goatee editor 00:44:46 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:28 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:48:03 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:48:19 beta-dog` [n=user@88.238.47.182] has joined #lisp 00:50:09 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:09 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:50:12 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 00:50:41 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 00:50:51 -!- buggarage is now known as buggarage_ 00:51:53 -!- buggarage_ is now known as buggarage 00:57:06 (case foo ('bar 'baz) ('baz 'bar)) 00:57:10 why is sbcl whining about this? 00:57:47 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D54C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 00:58:04 because quote appears twice 00:58:26 hint: the cars of the clauses are *not* evalled 00:58:41 :-) 00:58:52 (case foo (bar 'baz) (baz 'bar) ? 00:58:56 sure 00:59:03 guess so 00:59:05 unsafe, btw, for expansion 00:59:08 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 00:59:27 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:29 when writing macros that expand to cases, always wrap the car-symbols in a list 01:00:44 expansion instead of evaluation is which symbol ? 01:00:50 "," ?? 01:01:13 or "`" ? 01:01:26 er, it's when you write a macro that creates the "case" form instead of writing it manually 01:01:31 anyone able to get multiple repls working with slime? each repl has its own thread .. there is a http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/slime_002dmrepl.html#slime_002dmrepl slime-mrepl contrib, but it throw "eof" conditions at me when i do anything in the new repl 01:02:29 semiquote is only an implementation detail and has nothing to do with evaluation; a semiquote form can always be rewritten without semiquotes 01:03:50 read the clhs page on case to see why you would want to wrap the cars in lists 01:04:40 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-182-42.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 01:05:12 -!- beta-dog [n=user@88.238.33.229] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:05:57 -!- legumbre` is now known as legumbre 01:06:44 -!- koaftder [n=user@adsl-221-72-14.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:07:08 -!- beta-dog` [n=user@88.238.47.182] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:09:02 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:11:03 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:07 -!- ravster [n=user@dsl-67-55-20-20.acanac.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:14:11 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.141.229.98] has joined #lisp 01:18:54 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:19:40 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:21:02 dfox_ [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 01:21:14 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:22:57 CrazyEddy [n=paleoden@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 01:24:37 -!- CrazyEddy [n=paleoden@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:26:50 rvirding [n=rvirding@h252n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:27:46 CrazyEddy [n=paleoden@114-198-12-125.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:28:06 bkudria [n=bkudria@kudria.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:25 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 01:32:48 jfactor [n=jfactor@student164-180.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 01:37:18 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-13.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:37:36 buggarag` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-75-13.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:38:09 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 01:39:47 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:42:30 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:12 this asdf crap is pretty nice once you get used to the godawful-in-every-way-imaginable syntax 01:44:38 the only syntactic gripe I have with asdf is in loading systems, where there really should've been a shortcut to calling oos with 'asdf:load-op (however logical it might be) 01:46:19 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 01:47:06 is there an easy way to do something like 'rebuild / recompile / re-load file 'foo'' using asdf? 01:47:25 it's a file? recompile it yourself. 01:47:52 or is it like make, in that I could just reload the 'system' and it'll automatically reload everything that's changed 01:48:31 yes 01:49:43 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:52:14 -!- buggarage [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-241.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:52:45 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-120-241.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:53:07 legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-0-210.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:53:33 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:53:41 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:54:58 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h252n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 01:54:59 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:55:37 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:42 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:01:31 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:16 Traveler1 [n=traveler@117.193.196.163] has joined #lisp 02:04:15 ?: postmodern's simple-date converts 2000-02-29 to 2000-03-01 ; is it a bug? 02:05:10 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:07:04 Traveler1: Was 2000 a skip-a-leap-year or a skip-a-skip-a-leap-year ? 02:07:28 *aja* does some quick mod 100 and mod 400 arithmetic 02:08:25 Traveler1: Yep, that's a bug. 2000-02-29 is a valid date. 02:08:35 Traveler1: But the bug will only show up every 400 years ... 02:09:04 aja: no it occurs every leap year 02:09:41 aja: same error for 2004 and 2008 02:10:03 Traveler1: Not necessarily. 2000-02-29 was a special case that occurs every 400 years. Every 100 years, a leap year is skipped (Feb 29, 1900 and 2100 are invalid dates). 02:10:10 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-32-172.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:10:22 -!- gtasso [i=ca5027a2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-05633521dbbca11d] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 02:10:30 Traveler1: However, in the case that it is also skipping 2004 and 2008 you are correct. 02:10:43 yes 02:11:03 Traveler1: Which would make it a remarkably poor implementation... 02:12:27 aja: is the project active, can i post this bug somewhere? 02:12:41 Traveler1: No idea. 02:12:48 Traveler1: maillist 02:12:55 aja: ok thanks, i will find it out 02:16:06 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:16:20 sunwukong [n=vukung@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 02:19:56 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-80-229.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:20:17 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-80-229.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:41 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-80-229.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:21:04 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-80-229.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:13 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@209-161-227-184.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:22:46 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-180-197.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 02:23:45 -!- Traveler1 [n=traveler@117.193.196.163] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 02:24:05 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-80-229.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:24:29 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-80-229.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:03 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-566d445e631a47eb] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:28:49 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:30:19 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:30:22 durka42_ [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 02:34:42 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [No route to host] 02:34:46 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 02:35:04 -!- durka42_ is now known as durka42 02:37:27 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.8.13] has joined #lisp 02:39:53 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:48:37 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 02:50:01 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:50:16 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:50:24 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:52:28 -!- legumbre` is now known as legumbre 02:53:17 -!- buggarag` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-75-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 02:53:53 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 02:54:10 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@cpe-75-81-202-25.we.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:55:20 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:32 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-211-42.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 02:56:46 koaftder [n=user@adsl-221-72-14.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:28 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-155.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:59:32 beta-dog [n=user@88.238.43.217] has joined #lisp 02:59:55 -!- beta-dog [n=user@88.238.43.217] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:02:16 rullie_ [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151245.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:02:21 beta-dog [n=user@88.238.43.217] has joined #lisp 03:05:14 -!- beta-dog [n=user@88.238.43.217] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:06:39 beta-dog [n=user@88.238.43.217] has joined #lisp 03:08:20 -!- rullie_ [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151245.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 03:09:27 -!- beta-dog [n=user@88.238.43.217] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:10:18 beta-dog [n=user@88.238.43.217] has joined #lisp 03:11:46 -!- beta-dog [n=user@88.238.43.217] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:11:57 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:29 beta-dog [n=user@88.238.43.217] has joined #lisp 03:15:49 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:52 jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:22:17 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-45.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 03:23:35 -!- lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-211-42.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:26:47 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:27:23 -!- holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:29:33 felixc [n=felix@li46-216.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:32:44 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-45.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:35:17 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:35:50 -!- kuhzoo2 is now known as kuhzoo 03:37:47 saikat_ [n=saikat@dsl081-073-197.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:15 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-68-173-124-55.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:39:33 hm, fiddling with wait-conditions does interesting things sometimes .. atm. the machine is stuck at 100% cpu usage (system, not user) and strace reports sched_yield() being called in an endless loop 03:39:53 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-68-173-124-55.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:40:09 ..it's not possible to interrupt sbcl via emacs/slime by pressing C-c in this state 03:41:08 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 03:41:59 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-24.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 03:49:34 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.203.146] has joined #lisp 03:50:11 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@dsl081-073-197.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [] 03:54:20 -!- saikat [n=saikat@dsl081-073-197.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:54:33 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 03:55:26 holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:26 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:55:39 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:54 GrayMagiker [n=steve@97-123-189-76.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:09 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.203.146] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:59:44 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:00:44 Say I have a function that takes two arguments, the first being a list of about 1000 words. This list is the same for multiple calls to the function, say about 300 calls, would it be worth it to create a function generator that generates a function of one arguement that has the first argument preset? 04:03:25 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.8.13] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:04:44 Worth it, depends upon when you want to evaluate the returned function. 04:06:17 The code that calls the generated function would generate the function and then almost immediately start calling it. 04:08:42 sphex__ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:10:07 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 04:10:40 If you're able to abstract out a common idiom, then you'd certainly have cleaner, more re-usable, easier to test code 04:10:43 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.144.9] has joined #lisp 04:11:01 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 04:11:42 GrayMagiker: If you're worried that it's more expensive to pass two args to a function than just one, I'd say that's an unfounded worry. 04:13:02 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:13:04 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:13:30 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-24.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:13:35 beta-dog` [n=user@88.238.43.217] has joined #lisp 04:13:41 rme: I suspected that was the case, because as far as I know the whole list of words (the repeated first arguement) isn't copied for each function call 04:14:42 in the index of lispbuilder says it can be built to executable applications 04:14:49 bur i couldn't find anything that explains how 04:15:27 GrayMagiker: That's right. 04:15:29 does anyone have experience in that? or do you know where can i get this information 04:16:28 beta-dog`: you're overthinking it. Just memoize a hash-table with the words as keys 04:17:08 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:17:36 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Client Quit] 04:19:15 So i guess the question is: which is more efficient, passing an argument that is the same as the last call, or whatever mechanism lisp uses to store and pass the closure around the function? 04:19:32 Doesn't seem like too much of a gain either way. 04:20:23 -!- PSOAddict [n=PSOAddic@cblmdm72-240-100-173.buckeyecom.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:20:40 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-19.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 04:20:56 elias` [n=me@cs78208074.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 04:21:38 -!- H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0C771.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:23:28 there's something to say about premature optimization here... 04:24:29 slacks21 [n=ckuttruf@ip68-101-220-87.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:54 evening all. Can someone tell me how to load asdf and asdf-install at startup? I'm using slime with sbcl 04:25:12 slacks21: put the forms to do it in ~/.sbclrc 04:25:17 I did some searching but have had some trouble 04:25:21 okay 04:25:35 S11001001 Of course, which is why I am pondering this question in my off time and not when I should be writing code. 04:26:03 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:26:15 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:30:10 -!- beta-dog [n=user@88.238.43.217] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:31:34 S11001001: peheh i found it, but what i found is not really an exeptional lispbuilder feature, instead the usual save-image feature of implementations like clisp, sbcl, whatever :) 04:32:00 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-2e1b246d56a96419] has joined #lisp 04:32:25 S11001001: I tried (require :asdf) (require 'asdf)... etc. and with asdf-install, but when I try to test installing something, it's saying the function is undefined 04:32:25 am I missing something ? 04:32:25 well, I clearly am, but can you tell me what 04:32:26 anyway the library seems very useful though, and the good thing is its an integrated set of libraries 04:32:26 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-2e1b246d56a96419] has left #lisp 04:32:43 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:33:06 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-254-60-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:56 slacks21: do you mean you want sbcl itself to load asdf at startup? 04:35:35 slacks21: if so, you should put the code in initialization file of sbcl 04:35:36 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-86-176.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:38 yes, so I have access to (asdf-install ... ) when slime is initialized 04:36:24 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@cpe-75-81-202-25.we.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:36:32 slacks21: afaik, sbcl's init file is "sbclrc" 04:36:47 f'n finally got the opengl examples running on os x intel mac w/ sbcl 04:36:53 thank god 04:38:08 slacks21: just create a file "sbclrc" in your sbcl main directory and put (require :asdf) there 04:38:46 okay... thanks. tried that earlier... just still having trouble actually installing stuff. reading through the asdf docs 04:38:54 slacks21: (require 'asdf-install) loads asdf-install 04:39:18 slacks21: but the same doesn't work for asdf? 04:39:57 no... although I could be doing something dumb 04:40:00 double checking 04:40:51 slacks21: are you sure that the problem isn't some absent files in your asdf folder? 04:41:22 pretty sure. it came stock with my implementation 04:41:57 which version do you use and in which os? 04:42:21 well, I'm actually using allegro 7.0 04:42:27 with the latest version of slime 04:42:43 ! 04:42:47 created .clinit.cl, and added the require files 04:42:58 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:44:09 pstickne [n=pstickne@65.102.47.229] has joined #lisp 04:44:10 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:44:20 good morning. 04:44:28 it's all good... I'll figure it out. I know I'm probably missing something obvious. Thanks for the help all 04:44:33 kij [n=kij@79.138.242.116.bredband.3.dk] has joined #lisp 04:44:40 slacks21: is it the init file of allegro? 04:44:42 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 04:44:48 slacks21: i mean clinit.cl 04:45:27 yes. 04:45:39 (require :asdf) and (require :asdf-install) 04:46:13 but then when I try something like (:asdf-install ...) when I fire up slime, I get an undefined symbol error 04:46:35 as i said before, for sbcl you should create a file with the name "sbclrc" in the sbcl installation folder 04:47:10 slacks21: another filename won't be read while sbcl initializing 04:48:04 ?... I did create the .sbclrc file when I was using sbcl. But I'm using allegro cause I'm going through the PCL book, and for the mp3 streaming server, it uses thing specific to allegro 04:48:09 slacks21: but it doesn't seem to be the real problem because you also should be able to (require :asdf) from repl 04:48:37 I can 04:48:44 but then I can't install anything 04:48:50 you mean allegroserve? 04:49:00 yeah 04:49:41 slacks21: it is free though, as far as i know you can also use allegroserve from sbcl 04:49:56 hmm, I'll check that out 04:50:35 http://www.cliki.net/Portable%20Allegroserve%20Enhanced%20Version%20for%20SBCL 04:50:49 Although I'm guessing I would install it with asdf, so time to get that ish working... lol, thanks for your time; I don't want to take any more of it. Time to go through some docs and figure out what ridiculous thing I'm doing wrong 04:50:51 thanks again 04:51:03 oh nice 04:51:07 thanks for the link 04:51:48 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-143-63.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:52:18 slacks21: your problem doesn't seems to be installing something with asdf right? asdf itself isn't loading when you reqire it? 04:52:25 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:53:02 -!- koaftder [n=user@adsl-221-72-14.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:53:04 slacks21: did you type (asdf-install:install ....)? 04:53:18 no, it doesn't seem to be loading. (:asdf.... ) is recognized as a command, but seems to not work like when I use (load asdf and (load asdf-install) at the repl 04:53:23 that I have tested 04:53:28 that just simply isn't there 04:53:59 (:asdf ....) is not a function, undefined 04:54:51 slacks21: is your os windows? 04:55:20 slacks21: because asdf-install doesn't directly work in windows. 04:55:27 no 04:55:30 I'm using slackware 04:56:02 -!- cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:56:06 oh shit 04:56:24 I'm an idiot... (asdf-install is working... it just wasn't showing up when I was tabbing 04:56:26 strange 04:56:30 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 04:56:38 sorry, for the inconvenience. *sighs 04:56:39 maybe because you were prefix'ing with colon? 04:56:41 slacks21: :) 04:57:09 wenbackward: no... I was using (asdf-install 04:57:21 I tried every permutation... :P just mistaken assumptions 05:00:10 -!- thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:00:19 slacks21: ok then, i hope you like sbcl, i love it :D 05:00:48 what do you find as an advantage over other implementations? 05:01:02 I'm too much of a neophyte to have any preference at this point 05:01:35 all I've found is that sbcl def. has better integration with slime than clisp 05:01:43 which have been the two that I've used the most so far 05:02:50 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 05:03:18 imho its powerful 05:03:31 slacks21: portable 05:03:54 slacks21: also good integration with packages 05:04:45 btw, what have you found to be the most helpful documentation? I'm going through the practical common lisp book (which I've really enjoyed thus far), and I just bought paul graham's ANSI CL 05:04:46 slacks21: and the best thing is, it doesn't seem to be a part of some personal tastes 05:05:23 just curious what you've found most helpful. (I'm enjoying lisp so much more than Java, C, C++... which have been the main curriculum focus for CSE at my school) 05:06:52 slacks21: pcl is a great book really, but i'm not really the true person to answer this question because i am much of a newbie myself :) 05:07:09 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:08:27 minion: tell slacks21 about sicp 05:08:27 slacks21: direct your attention towards sicp: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available gratis from (HTML), (texinfo) and (XHTML, PDF). Accompanying video lectures are available gratis at 05:09:39 slacks21: hmm, yes wizard book is also great, its more of a bible though :) 05:09:56 oh yeah... I actually stumbled upon those lectures. went through a couple, and I fully intend on watching the rest 05:10:51 koaftder [n=user@adsl-221-72-14.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:21 slacks21: also, paradigms of ai programming by peter norvig 05:12:18 -!- beach` is now known as beach 05:12:52 Good morning. 05:13:26 -!- Lou__ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:13:29 beach: morning. 05:15:08 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] 05:16:52 in slime/emacs how can i get tab completion like i get on the repl in the buffers where i edit code? 05:17:19 C-c TAB 05:17:29 I use C-c C-i myself which is faster 05:17:52 hmm, what function does that bind to? 05:17:59 it's unbound on my setup 05:18:04 don't know. Hold on... 05:18:21 It may be bound to alt-TAB by default. 05:19:20 slime-complete-symbol-function 05:19:26 cool 05:19:34 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:19:37 haha, this is like day 3 of using lisp/emacs 05:19:48 i think most people would give up at this point 05:20:07 (add-hook 'slime-mode-hook (lambda () (local-set-key [(return)] 'newline-and-indent))) 05:20:07 (define-key slime-mode-map (kbd "TAB") 'slime-indent-and-complete-symbol) 05:20:07 (setq slime-complete-symbol-function 'slime-fuzzy-complete-symbol) 05:20:33 these can be useful, not all of them though 05:20:40 it's crazy how easy it is to get emacs customized 05:21:01 It's because it was written in Lisp. 05:21:11 thanks for the tips 05:21:21 beach, morning! have you heard of anyone attempting an ncurses McCLIM backend yet? 05:21:33 one for autoindent every new line, one for completion with tab, one for fuzzy completion 05:21:53 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.144.9] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:22:05 tic_: There have been some noise about that in the past, but I am unaware of a serious attempt. 05:22:14 koaftder: np 05:22:20 beach, would such noise be archived somewhere? 05:22:30 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.196.146] has joined #lisp 05:22:33 -!- slacks21 [n=ckuttruf@ip68-101-220-87.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:22:36 tic_: Here, I suppose. 05:22:39 beach, I guess the clicking would be problematic in ncurses. 05:22:41 beach, alright. 05:23:37 tic_: Ah, it's mainly you and me! :) 05:23:46 Haha. 05:26:20 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@65.102.47.229] has quit [Client Quit] 05:27:05 Time for work. 05:27:26 tic_: I don't think it is hard to write such a thing. You would mainly take the null backend and then fill in the few functions that have to do with text. 05:27:45 beach, hm.. 05:28:12 tic_: What made you start thinking about this again? 05:28:31 beach, the mind works in mysterious ways. 05:28:42 Indeed. 05:29:15 Probably the keyboard customization discussion above and my genuine distaste for VimScript. 05:29:35 <_8david> tic_: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/flux/tty-clim-kludge.lisp http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/flux/tty-weird-irc.png 05:30:14 thanks! 05:30:46 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 05:31:10 i wonder how i can channel the the whole repl input and output into another interface like a textbox in a widget 05:31:25 _8david, so basically, there you have it? 05:32:34 i ask that here for the third time here :) i think i'm the only one who needs something like that in the history :) 05:33:54 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 05:34:02 hmm i've started repeating repeating repeating words :) 05:34:14 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:35:18 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:35:42 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 05:36:03 beta-dog`: It's just a stream. 05:36:46 wentbackward: and? 05:37:13 i mean totally moving the repl inside a widget 05:37:34 Well, how do you manipulate streams on the platform you are using? 05:37:53 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:38:22 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 05:38:26 wentbackward: hmm, i ask people here and they manipulate for me :) 05:38:30 beta-dog`: What kind of widget are we talking about? I mean, you can probably put the CLIM Listener into any old pane in any old applicaiton if that is what you want to do. 05:40:25 beach: i want to move the repl into a frame in a ltk widget 05:41:29 beach: and people frequently* do (* by mcclim standards) 05:42:26 does mcclim work in windows? 05:42:42 not really. if you're using ltk, I'd carry on with it. 05:43:03 hefner: but then he needs to write a Listener. 05:43:34 well, if he's using ltk, he probably already has pretty low expectations. 05:43:41 heh! 05:44:20 I've found ltk to be pretty decent? 05:44:35 mogunus: Have you also used CLIM? 05:45:13 thom_ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:45:20 beach: I've tried. It lacks an automatic tree-display widget. 05:46:19 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:46:19 by some definition, a pane whose display function calls the graph formatter, and a couple commands to operate on the presented objects, constitutes a tree widget 05:46:36 And the documentation I found was... confusing. Could someone point me at the best intro to CLIM? 05:46:46 but that's another case where the platonic ideal of CLIM falls something short of user expectations 05:46:51 I'd of course be willing to give it another whack. 05:46:57 mogunus: There is a tutorial in the McCLIM manual. 05:46:59 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 05:49:20 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 05:49:52 beach: is the manual up on the web? 05:50:13 nadan [n=ndan@unaffiliated/nadan] has joined #lisp 05:50:17 mogunus: It might not be. It's in the distribution. 05:50:35 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:51:11 dihymo [n=rares@75-174-219-151.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:17 I just fetched it with clbuild. There's nothing in /doc 05:51:30 ? 05:51:58 I just did ./clbuild update mcclim 05:52:17 I actually don't use clbuild, but that shouldn't make a difference 05:52:22 there's nothing in the /docs subdirectory except a CVS folder 05:52:32 mogunus: try Doc 05:52:41 Ah. 05:53:08 strange, I don't have those extra directories in my mcclim checkout anymore. (maybe I deleted them myself?) 05:53:19 ...thanks for that 05:53:25 :) 05:53:32 -!- dihymo [n=rares@75-174-219-151.phnx.qwest.net] has quit ["using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12"] 05:53:43 ltk is excessively pragmatic. it lacks the aura of high technology and mysticism, without inspiring the sort of passion (or concession to ubiquity) that opposes the natural desire to roll your own toolkit 05:54:24 That might be why I've been enjoying it. 05:54:35 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.213.44] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:54:46 I needed to add ttk::treeview myself, though. Beh. 05:55:21 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 05:55:54 And a bunch of garbage on top to turn "sets" into the display trees. Which luckily has nothing to do with the set generating code, so I could switch to clim if I find that I like it this time... 05:57:08 One of my students was impressed by how quickly, and with how little code one can create a GUI with CLIM. 05:57:54 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:58:11 Maybe it is worth it to build my own treeview widget on top of CLIM then. I'll investiage that. 05:58:17 what, he's never seen visual basic? 05:58:18 (having just built the manual) 05:58:30 Maybe he's only use java for guis. 05:58:47 Coming from swing, tk looked like a gift from the gods of programming. 05:59:55 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:22 very nice dangling participle there. 06:01:35 *hefner* should fix the tree widget he wrote four or so years ago 06:01:52 Hah. My grammar is terrible. 06:02:03 or just write a new one, which should take on the order of an evening 06:02:12 I had some students working on a tree widget a long time ago, but I don't know what happened to the code. 06:03:15 since I'm not writing any apps in clim lately, mcclim work is very low priorty. :( 06:03:49 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-2e1b246d56a96419] has joined #lisp 06:05:47 mega1 [n=mega@3e70dcd6.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:07:51 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.196.146] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:08:08 GUIs, so easy to start, so hard to get right 06:09:00 there's usually a bad idea, so it's a catch-22 06:09:01 GUIs or GUI libraries? 06:10:23 If I use CLIM, I can ger incremental searching in text buffers? 06:10:27 *get 06:10:36 a la emacs? 06:10:44 mogunus: sure, use Drei. 06:11:03 GUIs in general. one tends to architecture around the library's signal/even pumping mechanism, which doesn't usually correspond well to interaction sequence. it's hard to do a beautiful responsive GUI that also has a pretty code base. 06:11:22 I find that CLIM helps writing GUIs because you don't even have to think about how interaction is going to happen. Just use the right presentations and write commands that accept the right presentation types. 06:11:42 fusss: clim gets the latter right, at least (sometimes, when it works) 06:12:49 mogunus: Drei is essentially a complete implementation of Emacs, so you get all the stuff like incremental search, abbrevs, keyboard macros and stuff like that. 06:12:51 although I maintain that if we're all hotshot lisp programmers, taming some nasty event-driven state machine should be a piece of cake 06:12:58 hefner: i know you're picky, so if you think clim gets something right, i might actually look at it 06:12:58 hell, web programmers do it, right? ;) 06:12:59 -!- beta-dog` [n=user@88.238.43.217] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:13:05 How hard would it be to make a treewidget style thing inside deri? So the text of the widget could be incrementally searched? 06:13:54 splittist [n=dmurray@192-126.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:13:57 morning 06:13:58 fusss: specifically, what I mean is that it doesn't force you to write your program inside out in response to how it wants to supply events to you 06:14:00 hello splittist 06:14:03 mogunus: That might not be worth it. Drei is very text oriented. 06:14:30 fusss: I recall Delphi being quite sensible about how to separate GUI from architecture... 06:14:34 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBA6B1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:14:36 if one took care to use it 06:15:00 Hm. Well. nicities like that can wait anyyway. 06:15:14 hefner: do you think i can spend 30 days on clim and it can help me learn something about GUI architecturing that win32, MFC, gtk, Qt, FLTK, Swing, Tk and DWIM haven't taught me? 06:15:39 fusss: I am convinced about that! 06:15:46 effin' aye! 06:16:12 *fusss* is also messing with Costanza's CoP and ContextL 06:16:13 DWIM probably lessens the impact. 06:16:36 hefner: DWIM doesn't seem entirely well documented, imo. 06:16:47 *fusss* has cl-dwim in ~ 06:18:00 anyway, I'm a bad person to ask. I never fully bought into the CLIM philosophy anyway. Most days, my inclination would be to gut it and turn it into just a widget library with a cool but rather dated drawing canvas. 06:18:24 heh 06:18:56 Self is a cool library with a date Xlib based interaction thinggie, and the best think you ever played with :-) 06:19:19 same with J; an ugly dialog box repl that you type crap into, and it turns your head inside and out 06:19:23 I always meant to bring up Self on my mac and play with it, before I lost interest and put it back in its box. 06:20:24 tried mozart/oz lately? it bundles emacs and it doesn't even have a repl, you send regions, but it's a delicious mindfuck :-) 06:21:29 mozart/oz, it greenspuns every known paradigm into a "language" with very little effort :-P 10k threads on Pentium M, etc. 06:21:48 I flip through the documentation occasionally, but haven't tried programming in it. 06:22:10 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:22:41 it's ugly, syntatically, but you can see the good parts that are just waiting to be lifted. 06:23:52 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.231.123] has joined #lisp 06:25:09 fwiw, in less than 20 days i'm going to serve ~30 requests per second off of hunchentoot and rucksack doing advanced analytics for niche marketing. many, many "lessons learned" type articles should be coming out. 06:26:19 cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 06:26:28 -!- kij [n=kij@79.138.242.116.bredband.3.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:26:46 i'm going from lamer to corporate, without bothering with that middle step about getting "enlightened" or "good at something" :-D 06:27:58 sounds like fun :) 06:28:08 actual difficulties etc 06:29:12 certainly post those :-) 06:29:36 diracdelta [n=diracdel@c-67-180-132-189.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:27 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.141.229.98] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:30:37 yep 06:30:46 when I hear a number like 30 requests per second, I think "but my computer plays quake 3 at unknown hundreds of frames per second!", and wonder such an app is doing or if somewhere along the road to web 2.0, someone didn't just casually discard one or two orders of magnitude of performance 06:31:13 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA735.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:32:01 good point. but i'm doing .. trade secret stuff. semantic analysis of a page content to match it with the most applicable ad. user behavioural history. 60 variables in a system of linear equations 06:32:10 2 PhD drop outs and a drunk 06:32:14 not easy 06:32:23 :D 06:35:11 fusss is always doing something borderline objectionable 06:35:45 -!- diracdelta [n=diracdel@c-67-180-132-189.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:36:26 but i'm also nice 06:36:27 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-161-244.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:36:30 good morning 06:37:18 hello mvilleneuve 06:38:57 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 06:41:31 -!- benny` is now known as benny 06:42:49 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-5.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 06:44:20 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 06:45:12 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 06:46:54 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:47:01 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 06:47:14 dwave_ [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 06:47:29 ASau` [n=user@host107-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:47:40 I really want drei for my command window, I think. 06:48:52 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 06:50:21 You know, most of the time I would prefer someone nice who does objectionable actions, verses a jerk who always conforms to my personal sense of morality. 06:51:03 -!- CrazyEddy [n=paleoden@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:52:49 CrazyEddy [n=equites@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 06:53:00 free_thinker [n=willijar@eas-nw709pc01.aston.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 06:53:43 -!- sphex__ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:54:16 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 06:54:30 GrayMagiker: self-described "nice people" are not usually nice; they right off kindness as the cost of doing business :-P 06:55:16 fusss: This is true. However i still prefer them to the alternative. 06:56:03 yeah. brb, another smoke before i call it a nite 06:56:18 In that case I think I'll have another drink. 06:58:17 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:59:33 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-2e1b246d56a96419] has left #lisp 07:02:35 rread [n=rread@12.155.31.10] has joined #lisp 07:02:39 A person who nicely cuts off your fingers. 07:03:46 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-6cd688eeeb025308] has joined #lisp 07:04:07 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:04:50 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-6cd688eeeb025308] has left #lisp 07:04:54 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:09:59 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:10:18 wrt CLIM, i have the following documents: clim-ug (franz), clim-spec, a-guided-tour-of-CLIM-2006, AITR-794, and the McCLIM user's manual. anything else i should look at? 07:10:57 LispWorks has a user guide as well as I recall. 07:11:06 yeah 07:12:43 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 07:13:18 it's funny how we study somethings sometimes, not to learn them, but to distill whatever they have to teach us and apply it somewhere else unrelated. half-hearted effort doesn't pay off that well. I "learned" smalltalk just to understand the early smalltalk papers, and it still doesn't make sense to me. 07:14:26 i came to clim full of prejudice, which is why i never groked it. 07:14:36 kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has joined #lisp 07:16:06 I suspect that is a common thing. The mind is playing tricks on us. 07:16:32 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 07:16:33 there are times also when you're as receptive as a sponge, and other times when you're trying to solve a problem you don't fully understand, and you end up book-hopping and keeping an appearance of being busy with many texts on your desk, when in fact you don't understand any of them 07:17:14 *hefner* is a hopeless book-hopper 07:19:04 hefner: you're probably trying to classify whatever you read, desperately shelving it into some familiar category so you can "use" it. this utilitarian ulterior motive is counter intuitive. better take a deep breath and enjoy something for its own sake. if it clicks in your head and you see parallels to it to some other field of study, fine, but put away the prejudice. 07:19:25 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:19:41 "yeah, i will just read this prolog text; i should be able to emulate whatever i learn in CL" not cool :-) 07:19:53 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.236.228] has joined #lisp 07:20:19 no, I just routinely overestimate my interest in a number of topics right up to the point where I'm required to exert past a certain threshold of effort to continue 07:20:20 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:21:13 that's the hallmark of a programmer. understand way too many things in broad strokes without fully specializing in anything. it's a good thing. 07:21:40 -!- koaftder [n=user@adsl-221-72-14.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:22:34 but sometimes it's more profitable just to put away the learning agenda. don't study something just because it's deemed beneficiary and can make you a better hacker. no, just enjoy it for it's own sake. for a few weeks :-) 07:22:50 Well i am glad you think it's a good thing. I have the same problem. If I could get away with it, I'd just read whatever became interesting to me for eternity. Unfortunately I don't even have one eternity to devote to learning, much less more than one. 07:23:38 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:45 Half of the things I study are deemed the opposite of beneficiary. 07:24:33 when you generalize your learning, you're acquiring the necessary vocabulary to think of various kinds of problems. you might not know the minute details, but should push come to shove, you can always devote the necessary time to become acquainted with the necessary literature. 07:24:39 Lou__ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:24:50 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-112-110.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:25:30 so you hoard pirated ebooks more than others hoard music, movies and games. BFD! 07:25:39 How do you know what to learn unless you have experience? 07:26:12 wentbackward: sometimes the unfamiliar has a tempting taste. you can't do anything else until you explore it. 07:26:14 Guessing. 07:26:28 my question is usually "where the hell I'm supposed to get those years of experience if there are no entry positions?" 07:26:29 wentbackward:you learn from those with experience? 07:27:18 you will be influenced by intelligent conversation. seeing/reading two people speak of something unfamiliar with authority will make you investigate it further. 07:29:45 we programmer-types tend to be hopeless optimists as well; there is no problem without a solution, and even that should be proven "unsolvable", that's why we're prone to investigating messy politics, economics and philosophy with mathematical rigor. because we're convinced of the existence of a solution, even if it's an ugly heuristic. 07:30:29 -!- ltriant [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 07:31:06 p_l, I was at one company where HR sent me 5 cv's from 5,000 graduate applicants. I'd like to know how can I find the real programmers! 07:31:31 wentbackward: by finding the ones that will try working around HR dept? 07:31:37 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:31:47 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:31:51 -!- rread [n=rread@12.155.31.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:32:01 yeah, good programmers show up in /var/log/security 07:32:05 ;-) 07:32:19 billstclair [n=billstcl@dcha-aa1543.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:20 *p_l* has only one experience with HR in IT. HR got my papers after I got the job. 07:33:00 Oh, I think there's plenty of problems without solutions, such as the impending global economic collapse, the eventual extinction of civilization as we know it on a large scale as energy stocks dwindle, or version skew between lisp libraries distributed across the internet. 07:33:34 fusss: And very good ones contact you to tell you why you didn't find any traces? :P 07:33:42 the world already collapsed with the demise of cClan and sb-studio. 07:33:50 Well it's been a pleasure, as always, but I must collapse and sleep now. Wish all of you all the best. Program mindfully. 07:33:57 -!- GrayMagiker [n=steve@97-123-189-76.albq.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:34:43 hefner: Well, obviously were here only to make a spare part for some stranded spacecraft somewhere in solar system. 07:34:53 hah. 07:35:04 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 07:35:12 (my favorite Vonnegut book) 07:35:16 as a Somali, i'm not phased by faux-crisis 07:35:45 Ah, the internet is mother natures bidding, she'll keep providing resources to run it. She needs the collective intelligence for whatever the next stage of evolution is 07:35:45 things can get a whole lot worse 07:36:13 wentbackward: I for one welcome our new AGI overlords 07:37:00 fusss: and they will! 07:37:33 let's see... unstable nanotech arms race, gray goo, not-Friendly AGI... 07:38:06 Chinese understood it all too well when they coined the phrase about "living in interesting times"... 07:38:33 not in the magnitude i have seen. our president flew choppers over the city and dropped the entire national reserve over our heads. never has money meant so little. it rained cash and it was worth nothing. 07:39:16 huh. here, they only do that over Wall St. 07:39:16 100 somali shilling went from being worth a week's groceries to _nothing_ 07:39:36 fusss: well, at least you are not going out of towels nor toilet paper now, do you? 07:40:01 p_l: we never used them. just water and one's left hand :-) 07:40:22 fusss: okay, then you have improvement :P 07:42:03 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 07:42:37 as long as we can keep the illusion of nationhood, the west will survive 07:42:44 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 07:43:29 but when people start to feel alienated, and find allegiance in something other than the sovereign nation, they tend to do funny things. 07:44:09 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:48:09 this is what a collapsed economy looks like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3LdNxV0yPM 07:49:11 and compared to us, the Zimbabweans are civil and very educated. somali kids started robbing adults within the first week the schools were dismissed. 07:52:27 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:59:24 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-7248.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 08:00:37 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 08:01:14 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 08:01:25 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 08:01:44 well, afaik they are keeping the market running, just not with national currency... 08:02:43 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:47 gzip4 [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has joined #lisp 08:05:44 zimbabwe? it's USD now. 08:05:51 alright, good nite all 08:05:52 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-86-176.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609]"] 08:06:15 hi. can i in my lisp code handle slime interrupt condition? 08:12:20 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:14:14 what do you mean? 08:14:19 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-212-15.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 08:15:53 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-19.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:16:19 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 08:18:11 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 08:18:55 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:36 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 08:24:57 me? if i type C-c C-c in slime-repl, i go to debugger... the code running at that moment is interrupted. i want to handler-bind to such a condition 08:25:56 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-80-229.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 08:25:57 why not use *debugger-hook*? 08:26:23 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-80-229.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:32 or, why try to catch the debugger? being able to C-c C-c is quite valuable 08:27:35 i just want to be notified of interrupt, not prevent debugger to appear 08:28:26 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 08:28:27 so if i choose to continue, my code would gracefully de-init and quit 08:29:05 otherwise it do so not gracefully 08:29:47 then the question is: which error/signal is being thrown? 08:30:46 gzip4: unwind-protect is usually used for graceful cleanup.. 08:31:14 although it is not always possible to do so safely in case of keyboard interrupt 08:31:51 What is the exception there? 08:31:53 or so i remember from a discussion on c.l.l a time ago 08:33:08 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:50 i need just set the value of one variable in my handler and countinue... my app exits in that case 08:34:40 debugger may be invoked in different cases, not only keyboard interrupt 08:35:25 -!- lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-212-15.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:35:39 gzip4: i seriously doubt you want to automatically continue after receiving a keyboard interrupt event... 08:36:23 jdz: not automatically... i would do it manually in a debugger buffer 08:36:52 gzip4: then you want a restart 08:37:03 maybe 08:38:43 i try to use *debugger-hook* and see which condition is passed in a case of keyboard interrupt and react only on it 08:39:12 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 08:40:24 hello! 08:41:23 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-80-229.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:41:36 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-80-229.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:08 ... and nothing happened... *debugger-hook* not deal in keyboard interrupt, as i can see 08:43:39 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-96.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 08:43:50 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:44:46 Lou_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 08:46:58 -!- nadan [n=ndan@unaffiliated/nadan] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:50:36 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:52:14 ehu`: you are right: the question is: which error/signal is being thrown? 08:54:07 but what's the answer? 08:54:46 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:57:02 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-117-181.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:59:25 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl476.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1: SIGTERM received; exit"] 09:00:44 awayekos [n=anekos@pl476.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:00:52 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 09:01:52 ok, i see that was unresolvable problem 09:05:13 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Operation timed out] 09:07:36 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:09:45 It sounds to me you want to establish a restart 09:10:18 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 09:11:22 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:12:40 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 09:14:34 -!- dwave_ is now known as asksol 09:14:46 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 09:16:43 tcr: that's an idea. i'll now try 09:17:21 I do not get why you want your application to quit when you choose to continue 09:17:48 If you want to quit, invoke an abort restart 09:18:22 cleanup forms in unwind-protects should then do the necessary finalizing work for a proper shutdown 09:18:48 Perhaps it'd make sense to shortly write up your scenario and paste it to paste.lisp.org 09:18:52 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 09:20:21 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:22:33 tcr: maybe i need some coffee and rest... thanks for help. 09:22:41 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 09:28:09 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:12 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:29:07 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 09:29:23 manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 09:31:41 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 09:32:36 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:35:28 -!- jewel_ is now known as jewel 09:39:02 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:40:53 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-212-171.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 09:41:52 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-6cd688eeeb025308] has joined #lisp 09:43:01 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-96.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:50:10 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 09:50:16 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:54:16 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:54:54 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:54:55 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A3AF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:57:06 on x86-64 does xor ecx, ecx clear the whole rcx register? 09:58:36 hello, i'm trying to install cl-selenium and lisp-unit using clbuild, but i'm getting errors like:- 09:58:37 clbuild $ ./clbuild list lisp-unit 09:58:37 paste: /tmp/clbuild.KqsxWeSIhH/left: No such file or directory 09:58:37 clbuild $ ./clbuild list selenium 09:58:37 paste: /tmp/clbuild.XPpjFgvVbu/left: No such file or directory 09:58:56 i realise that these projects are not listed in projects/wnpp-projects file 09:59:29 my question is how do i add these there? can someone help me with where can i find these? 10:04:53 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:06:00 mega1: yes, as far as I understand (testing seems to confirm this) 10:06:24 <_3b> spradnyesh: google knows where to find them 10:06:57 Ogedei: that's supremely illogical 10:07:20 <_8david> echo "$project get_tarball http://cliki.net/$project?download" >>my-projects # <--- the easy way out 10:08:24 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:09:18 mega1: any write to a 32-bit register sign-extends into the lower bits, so 0 extends to 0 10:10:01 Ogedei: aha, thanks, that explains it. 10:10:41 frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has joined #lisp 10:10:54 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 10:11:19 err, s/lower/upper/, but you get the point 10:12:33 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:12:36 hello, can I have more than one REPL with Slime/SBCL ? 10:12:50 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 10:13:09 -!- frank_s [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:13:28 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 10:14:08 Is there a function like this? (or better way to write the function) http://paste.lisp.org/display/78604 10:14:50 -!- lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-212-171.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:16:22 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:16:42 nothing like that in the starndard lib. though you might be interested in rassoc 10:16:45 tomoyuki28jp: you might be able to avoid the... yes 10:17:07 _8david: thanks, will try that out 10:17:18 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:17:34 _3b: i tried googling, but i got some error like $prj is not a project, no dependencies defined. hence asked here 10:18:01 <_3b> spradnyesh: i meant for the locations of the source 10:18:04 -!- Noll_Noll [n=28@c-ee70e253.4542024--62697410.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 10:19:15 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:20:18 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@c-68-84-2-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:39 puchacz: M-- M-x slime 10:23:47 jao: I use slime-connect 10:23:51 I was away 10:23:58 Ogedei: thanks 10:24:05 Xof: avoid what? 10:25:16 avoid needing that function in the first place 10:27:27 Xof: I see. yeah, maybe you are right. thanks for your advice. 10:28:40 if you treat this as an alist, assoc and friends take :key arguments, so you could handle the list as-is 10:30:22 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:31:37 frank_s [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has joined #lisp 10:35:46 sulo [n=sulo@p57B4B4D0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:36:13 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:43:07 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 10:48:12 -!- frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:51:24 ejs0 [n=eugen@143-235-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:41 dreish_ [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 10:57:03 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 10:57:18 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:27 'hello 10:57:40 Smart1234 [i=Smart123@116.68.96.147] has joined #lisp 10:57:52 http://www.artworkz.info/Games/embed15.php 10:57:58 how is this chess AI 10:58:04 how do i get out of the debugger of ECL (broken at eval. no restarts available)? 10:58:59 anybody won at level 4 11:01:46 found a bug (my king just took my own knight. anyway... is this relevant to lisp somehow? 11:02:45 it's probably submitted an amazon XSS request to delist all AI-related books 11:03:56 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:04:55 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:06:50 hugod_ [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1176023512.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:08:54 friedmeat [n=fruitbag@78.149.254.124] has joined #lisp 11:09:19 Guys, I have an interesting question for you -- can an algorithm be devised such that the sampling rate of a raw audio can be determined 11:09:19 ? 11:10:49 trebor_dki, what do you mean by "get out of the debugger"? 11:11:14 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:11:42 trebor_dki, type :h to see the list of available commands 11:12:04 friedmeat: no 11:13:49 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279776576.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:14:53 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 11:19:07 -!- Smart1234 [i=Smart123@116.68.96.147] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:19:19 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:19:45 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:20:29 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-117-181.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 11:21:35 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 11:25:20 -!- friedmeat [n=fruitbag@78.149.254.124] has quit [] 11:25:57 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483CD6E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:14 deepfire: thank you :q did it. 11:28:24 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 11:28:38 deepfire: do you have some experience in ecl? 11:29:08 *stassats* thought you are talking about vi... 11:29:36 ;) 11:29:59 -!- dreish_ [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 11:30:14 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:32:00 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:32:07 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:36:11 Smart1234 [i=Smart123@116.68.96.147] has joined #lisp 11:36:44 anybody won at level 4 @ http://www.artworkz.info/Games/embed15.php 11:36:57 how is this chess AI 11:37:21 Smart1234: you asked that question before, and it's not clear how it is relevant to lisp. 11:37:24 About as good as the irc AI, it seems. 11:37:28 in fact, it's easy to mistake you for a spammer. 11:37:57 actaully i dont even have ads 11:38:04 so what is the use 11:38:16 i got disconnected earlier 11:38:19 So what's the point of your question on #lisp? 11:38:28 so i wanted to hear the opinion 11:38:52 I wanted to know how you guys look at it 11:38:57 I gave you a bug report (: 11:38:59 because lisp==ai 11:39:07 oh god no 11:39:21 I couldnt see i was disconnected 11:39:40 my king took my rook 2 squares away. 11:40:03 no caselling is not implemented 11:40:13 caselling is not implemented 11:40:23 i will tighte validationsorry aout it 11:40:30 castling? 11:40:30 tighten 11:40:42 moving rook and king in chess 11:41:06 No matter how good your AI is, if it doesn't know the rules it will be very difficult to demonstrate its quality by playing the game. 11:41:16 ok 11:41:21 Perhaps you should write the server side integration in Lisp 11:41:26 ok 11:41:30 instead of PHP 11:41:33 is lisp tough 11:41:35 is it written in lisp? do you have any question about lisp? 11:41:46 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xof 11:41:46 no its not written in lisp 11:41:59 why are you coming here then? 11:42:06 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 11:42:07 just its related to ai 11:42:15 I recommend emergency extraction from this conversation 11:42:16 no it isn't 11:42:24 ok sorry bye 11:43:49 1 more question is ther any channel for testing games or programs 11:46:39 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 11:47:17 /topic Common Lisp, the #1=(AI . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.27, Hunchentoot-ai & Drakma-ai 1.0.0, usocket-ai 0.4.1... 11:48:13 S11001001: what's wrong with paste.lisp.org? 11:49:05 it's not sufficiently intelligent 11:49:08 it didn't mention ai anywhere in the url, therefore unusable for kisp, aka ai 11:49:21 lllll 11:51:42 Is it possible to see a list of earlier releases of Edi's software at his site? All I see is link that the latest releases. 11:52:00 man, that was some awful grammar 11:52:52 Smart1234: you should ask #defocus 11:53:03 aerique: you could use the ediware vcs repositories around... 11:53:12 Anyway, I've got a link to Hunchentoot 0.15.7 that still works and I'm curious what the latest pre-1.0.0 Chunga is. 11:53:25 but I think there was a historic mirror for hunchenteet and others 11:53:42 antifuchs: ah, alright. I'll do that then. 11:54:00 sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B484F6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:54:05 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609]"] 11:54:26 chessguy [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:05 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 11:56:00 thx S11001001 11:56:05 -!- Smart1234 [i=Smart123@116.68.96.147] has left #lisp 12:00:56 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:01:06 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student167-193.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 12:02:57 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:04:21 -!- zen_balrog [n=johnnyc@adsl-69-150-85-11.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["zen_balrog has no reason"] 12:04:41 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 12:07:46 blandest [i=55cc21f2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-dc823996a99c53c0] has joined #lisp 12:08:27 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:08:40 -!- blandest [i=55cc21f2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-dc823996a99c53c0] has quit [Client Quit] 12:09:07 -!- sulo [n=sulo@p57B4B4D0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:09:29 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 12:09:32 G'day! 12:09:56 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:10:07 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.172.246] has joined #lisp 12:10:30 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 12:12:00 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@c-68-84-2-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:12:04 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:55 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-5.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 12:19:03 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 12:19:54 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:20 What are the possible problems one will encounter while trying to concurrently decf/incf an integer, say fixnum? 12:22:12 the universe may implode 12:22:14 there is no guarantee that incf/decf are atomic 12:22:14 just sayin' 12:23:58 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 12:26:01 LostMonarch [n=roby@host60-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:27:20 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:27:28 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:28:12 I'm trying to implement some sort of probabilistic size observation over 2-lock concurrent queue at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78402 But I couldn't come up with a working solution yet. Any ideas? 12:29:37 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:55 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-6cd688eeeb025308] has left #lisp 12:31:25 Hrm... It appears to be global locking or linked-list walking are my only choices. 12:32:22 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:35:24 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:36:04 vy: have you considered using a (completely) separate list for the tail, and then only when the head is empty you need to grab the tail lock, set the head to the reverse of the tail, and clear the tail 12:36:50 that's not the algorithm you're trying for here, but it also performs well 12:38:04 Ogedei: But wouldn't it continuosly try to acquire both head and tail locks when both head and tail are empty. 12:39:14 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-143.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 12:39:54 vy: yes ... which isn't a big deal when it's blocking, but this one seems to be non-blocking 12:40:29 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:41:56 minion: logs 12:41:57 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 12:42:00 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-31-185.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:43:00 what functions/macros can change a fill-pointer apart from fill-pointer and setf fill-pointer ? 12:43:49 I have released inflector which does pluralize and singularize a word. What do you think? http://github.com/tomoyuki28jp/inflector/tree/master 12:43:53 <_3b> vector-push, vector-push-extend, vector-pop 12:44:05 _3b: great, thank you ! 12:44:22 <_3b> kuwabara: might be more, not sure 12:44:26 _3b: did you get them from memory, or did I miss something on clhs ? 12:45:13 <_3b> vector-push-extend from memory, other 2 from clhs page for v-p-e 12:46:36 <_3b> adjust-array can change it too 12:47:08 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:29 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:48:53 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 12:49:44 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 12:49:52 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:52:10 tomoyuki28jp: "([m|l])ouse$" do you see what's wrong with that reg-exp? 12:53:14 stassats: I copied it from active_support/inflections.rb in Ruby on Rails. Is there any problem on the regexp? 12:53:48 yse 12:53:59 it would match |ouse 12:54:03 <_3b> kuwabara: also with-output-to-string, map-into, format 12:54:37 -!- hugod_ [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1176023512.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 12:54:47 stassats: thanks for letting me know that. let me check. 12:54:49 AHA 12:55:12 I think clisp-as-xc-host will now be rather more reliable 12:55:27 _3b: wow. thanks. 12:55:53 what was the final missing piece? 12:55:59 :initial-element 0 12:56:05 haha 12:56:31 <_3b> kuwabara: those from skimming results of google search for "fill pointer" limited to the clhs site 12:57:08 clisp seems _mostly_ to initialize to 0. But apparently not always, so sometimes, symbols had TLS indexes in lala land 12:57:48 there're still a couple of irritating things to fix (e.g. clisp discards package documentation, so (documentation t) returns NIL there and a helpful string in most implementations 12:58:04 ) but I've booted a cold-clisp-sbcl.core 12:58:53 cool. this will make a lot of paranoid package maintainers happy :-) 13:05:08 stassats: I fixed it, thanks! http://github.com/tomoyuki28jp/inflector/commit/b09b3285f357a9ae8d1c996271a2612dd9bd2cbf 13:06:32 tomoyuki28jp: it's also in *singular* list 13:07:12 stassats: oh yes, thanks! :P 13:07:22 anyone here going to ELS? 13:07:36 Xof: me 13:08:07 I am going to propose a tutorial; what would you like to be tutored on? 13:08:20 tomoyuki28jp: fwiw, a|b is shorter than [ab] 13:08:49 Xof: the MOP, for example 13:10:02 vng [n=vuong@222.253.76.223] has joined #lisp 13:10:36 Xof: The Zen of PCL: Part 1, Section A: Some Caches ? 13:10:39 stassats: Thanks, I fixed that. http://github.com/tomoyuki28jp/inflector/commit/c97548492335b40300a02ebd9dd05de0f640997c 13:11:45 Xof: Tutorial about: "Effective proselytism". With sections addressed to the coworkers proselites, and the PHB proselites. ;-) 13:11:51 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has quit [] 13:12:13 tomoyuki28jp: now, you can write a stemming program 13:13:18 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:28 the sad thing is that I don't think I can sustain a tutorial session on sbcl 13:14:49 (I know too much about its implementation and not enough about actually using it...) 13:15:04 a mop tutorial, what a novel idea 13:15:06 Xof: When (not) to use macos? 13:15:12 stassats: To learn programming? 13:15:12 has there ever been a lisp conference without a mop tutorial? 13:15:45 stassats: oh, with using the inflector package? 13:16:01 well, extending it 13:16:28 I see, yeah. 13:16:46 stemmer seems to me more useful 13:17:24 Xof: How to use Extenisble LOOP? 13:17:24 *stassats* has a stupid stemmer in 10 lines of scheme 13:17:27 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-161-244.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:17:44 "Unportable (but fun): using SBCL internals"? 13:18:36 Hacking SBCL for fun and profit! 13:19:08 Watch The Grumpy SBCL Hacker Try And Use Other Implementations? 13:19:18 I would watch that. 13:19:19 On the way in to work this morning I dreamed up the notion of hacking in a CLOS package protocol, so that we could have hierarchical packages, per-package nicknames, conduits and everything else all in the same image 13:19:44 nice! 13:20:09 I gotta leave now. Thanks for your help, stassats. (all the time!) See you guys later. 13:20:48 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-31-185.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:21:14 jsnell: I think a CLOS MOP tutorial that didn't start with "here is how you implement a different slot allocation" would be fairly radical 13:22:03 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:04 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-143-63.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:23:19 <_8david> SB-PCL internals would be nice! 13:24:17 <_8david> (except that I'll miss ELS anyway) 13:25:07 so i had a dream last night that the house i just bought came with this uber-cool macro-driven home automation system 13:25:12 PCL internals would be interesting, except that it wouldn't be a tutorial any more 13:25:49 <_8david> I didn't see much tutoring going on at ILC tutorials. Perhaps ELS is different. 13:26:20 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-161-244.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:26:54 generally academic conference tutorials aren't really lessons so much as braindumps 13:27:02 I've never gone to one where I've learnt much 13:29:30 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.172.246] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:30:20 metasynt1x [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:30 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 13:30:49 woopdeedoo [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:05 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:37:48 TDT [n=user@191.16.63.69.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:13 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 13:42:30 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:43:34 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:46:24 -!- holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:51:10 <_8david> so my failing GC assertions with SBCL on Windows are gone after adding the following hack: Instead of making FFI calls, I start a background thread SBCL doesn't know about, talk using a socket to that thread, and let the thread call the exact same C++ functions that the old code called directly through cffi. 13:51:20 Xof: I guess if you do the SBCL internals, I could do the CLIM one. 13:51:28 <_8david> Conclusion: The GC errors can't be due to errors on the C++ side. The Lisp side is also unchanged. So the bug must be due to SBCL getting its calls to C functions wrong. (right?) 13:51:30 (provided we need more) 13:52:03 _8david: that's entirely possible. ISTR someone on the mailing list commenting on sign-extension of shorts 13:52:09 -!- pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:52:26 spiaggia: or the reverse! (I might finally remember the form of define-application-frame that way) 13:53:27 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 13:53:44 legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-46-84.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:56:10 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 13:56:15 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has left #lisp 13:56:18 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:59:18 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 14:07:53 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-143.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:24 char, too: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.devel/12648/focus=12732 14:08:38 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-19.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 14:09:23 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-0-210.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:09:31 ceineke_ [n=chris@99.255.166.25] has joined #lisp 14:10:28 -!- wentbackward [n=wentback@n219077065141.netvigator.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:10:36 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-8-176.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:09 c|mell [n=cmell@p3211-ipbf2908marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:12:42 <_8david> I don't think I have a gcc version affected by that. And these SBCL crashes on Windows aren't really new either. So I'd suspect something more fundamental. 14:14:52 _8david: if you can isolate it that would be very cool 14:16:16 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:46 ejs1 [n=eugen@143-235-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:16 <_8david> I'm torn between isolating the CCL crash and isolating the SBCL crash. :-) 14:17:38 <_8david> And partly I'm waiting for nyef to turn up and tell me that I just forgot to write __stdcall in front of my functions or something. 14:17:56 <_3b> you probably do :p 14:18:19 *_3b* thought cffi had an option for that somewhere 14:18:53 -!- jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:19:04 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:20:27 <_3b> as far as i know that only matters for callbacks on sbcl though 14:20:29 Among `THREADS' list I have, is it possible to detect the blocked ones? 14:21:43 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:21:51 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:22:51 vy: arbitrary threads? 14:23:03 snippyhollow [n=snippyho@tkbn103153.catv.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:23:03 or do you know how they can be blocked? 14:23:30 mega1: Actually, I was refering to I/O blockings. 14:25:54 vy: short of interrupt-thread and inspecting the backtrace I can't think of anything 14:25:55 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 14:26:16 may I ask what for? 14:26:26 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 14:26:54 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:27:20 mega1: I'm looking for a way to implement "... once idling has been detected, the pool has to create or activate an additional pool thread to take the place of the blocked one, and start assigning work to it." scheme mentioned in http://www.ddj.com/article/printableArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=XJ430K02QWFRGQSNDLPSKHSCJUNN2JVN?articleID=216500409&dept_url=/hpc-high-performance-computing/ 14:27:42 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:27:45 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:28:16 can't you convince those threads to participate in this scheme knowingly? 14:28:35 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-19.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:29:19 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-68.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 14:30:28 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:48 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:30:53 How will that participation occur? If a thread blocks, then it blocks. How can a blocked thread can perform an action (e.g. creating a new thread)? I get your wrong I think. Would you mind elaborate your idea a little bit please? 14:33:02 willb [n=wibenton@wireless297.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:34:52 Well, the pool does the action, not the blocked thread, from what's written above. 14:35:15 Presumably using another thread that sits around watching other threads block :) 14:35:41 Alternately, it could simply anticipate the blocking and make arrangements before actually doing so. 14:35:46 But wasn't it a suggestion over using a single/master pool thread instead? 14:36:43 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:37:21 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:38:05 jlf [n=user@adsl-99-161-111-155.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:35 "First, a thread pool has to be able to detect when one of its threads goes idle even though it still has a task assigned" 14:38:45 Where idle means blocked. 14:42:14 minion: logs 14:42:14 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 14:43:04 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-68.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:47:17 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6C1BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:03 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:49:48 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:52:17 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:49 Adamant [n=Adamant@AASU-101-61.Armstrong.EDU] has joined #lisp 14:53:54 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:54:08 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:42 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:55:58 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student164-180.hampshire.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:58:57 beta-dog [n=user@88.238.219.37] has joined #lisp 15:00:23 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:06:14 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 15:08:05 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:08:24 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:27 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:12:08 hi 15:12:37 i wonder how can i unload the packages i don't use from sbcl.core 15:13:25 clhs delete-package 15:13:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_del_pk.htm 15:14:17 it's size is 25 mb and i think maybe some packages that comes with the distro causes it, and the ones i don't use can be unloaded 15:14:42 you can customize sbcl when building it 15:15:00 -!- apo_ [n=apo@pD9E7EDD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:15:09 beta-dog: you won't save much space. 15:16:43 i use windows, i downloaded sbcl as binary installer, so it would be better if there is a way of doing it in a save-lisp-and-die process 15:16:47 wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-144-151.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 beta-dog: why do you want it smaller? 15:17:10 apo [n=apo@pD9E7D8FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:21 if just for distribution, zipping it will cut down the size a lot 15:17:25 it compresses nicely 15:17:43 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-10.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 15:17:58 (I have a webapp as a 100mb core which gzips to about 15mb) 15:18:41 <_8david> I'm looking forward to people asking for single .exe files including SBCL and Qt. Including the 100 MB of Qt libraries. 15:19:27 GAH COMPILED-DEBUG-FUN 15:20:41 http://www.advogato.org/person/wnewman/diary/6.html 15:20:51 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-10-114.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:02 -!- phytovor is now known as doxtor 15:21:11 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit ["Be back later"] 15:21:11 it makes it surprisingly hard to define a predicate which completely orders all the function names in sbcl 15:21:25 i think it can make a fairly good reduce in size to unload some of them, but i'm not sure, i just know when i compile it with lispbuilder-sdl loaded, its size increase to 32 mb from 24 mb, but i know that the ones in the core itself won't reduce that much 15:21:53 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:22:02 however, this is the last remaining difference between a clisp core and an sbcl core 15:22:34 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 15:24:10 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 15:25:39 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:25:51 anyone know what instruction-pointer relative jumps look like in x86-64 assembly? jmp *4(%rip) segfaults 15:26:31 stassats: how far have you got with your ARM port since November? 15:26:58 kami-: not far, you must be mistaken me with nyef 15:28:00 stassats: sorry. that explains that you didn't get far with it. :) 15:29:24 stassats: found the link to his log in a c.l.l message of yours, and overlooked the quote 15:30:25 rsynnott: omg, it's zipped to 6mb from 24 :) 15:30:43 rsynnott: down to 25%, excellent :) 15:33:07 rsynnott: thanx 15:33:15 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:33:55 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:34:10 Ogedei: that instruction looks like an indirect jump to me, but icbw 15:37:06 cmm: in the actual code, I'm doing something like 'jmp *1(%rip, %rax)', to skip a parameterised amount of instructions 15:37:07 Ogedei: near jumps are always relative. 15:38:13 pkhuong: I guess I had my terminology mixed up then. what I need is a jump to %rip + a given amount of bytes 15:38:28 istr that you can only jump farther than 2g either way indirectly on x86-64 15:38:40 manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 15:39:14 Ogedei: what signal does that fail with? Are you certain you're jumping to legal instructions? 15:39:36 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has quit [Client Quit] 15:39:36 the safest bet is disassembling some goto-using C code and finding out :) 15:40:08 pkhuong: segfaults with return code 139. and no, but trial and error should have landed me on a legal instruction by now 15:40:19 (but don't let me turn this into #assembly) 15:40:43 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 15:42:32 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.231.123] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:43:34 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:44:03 do you know about mcclim working on win using xming 15:44:25 is that a question? 15:44:35 TimoT [n=ttossava@cs163143.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:44:39 sorry for my english :) 15:44:40 yes 15:44:55 then yes, McCLIM's CLX backend displays on Xming just fine 15:45:50 -!- jlf [n=user@adsl-99-161-111-155.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:45:51 dwave [n=ask@084202073031.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 15:45:53 beta-dog: e.g. http://blog.splittist.com/2006/11/05/on-a-stick/ 15:45:57 i was preparing to ask if anyone has experience with it and can anyone tell me about its performance and compability level 15:46:07 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 15:46:30 jaxni [n=sjdo@bl10-177-8.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 15:46:30 Xof: wow, bitten by a 7.5-year-old problem. that's terrible 15:48:57 if you are destructuring in a loop's for clause 15:49:04 and you want to bind the 'whole' 15:49:11 is that possible, like in a macro 15:49:16 can't find it in the clhs :P 15:50:40 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-5.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 15:50:43 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 15:52:14 splittist: omg :) but will it work both in vista and xp? 15:52:50 splittist: i mean in 32bit versions of both 15:54:16 beta-dog: sbcl might be problematic on windows. everything else should be fine, and you can substitute clisp for sbcl 15:55:27 (loop for whole in '((1 2 3) (4 5 6)) for (a b c) = whole do (print a)) 15:55:44 tsuru` [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:48 beta-dog: I see no reason why not. 15:56:04 matimago: in other words, no :) 15:56:20 yvdriess: loop doesn't do lambda lists 15:56:32 cmm: sbcl on win is quite good for my level in fact, i am pretty much of a newbie for reaching the borders of sbcl compability problems with win :) 15:56:59 cltl nicely says the destructuring in loop predates the destructuring bind in CL, so that's why it's different 15:57:04 grmbl 15:57:05 yvdriess: more or less. You can still get it easily as you can see. 15:57:10 yeah 15:57:22 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 15:57:44 splittist: but there should be some minor changes or two alternative .emacs files afaik, because the slime init setup for vista and xp are a bit different 16:00:01 splittist: also there should be need of a small script to locally arrange an SBCL_HOME and PATH variable includes the drive letter that os binds to the usb stick 16:00:58 -!- ASau` [n=user@host107-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["Off!"] 16:01:12 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 16:02:46 jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has joined #lisp 16:02:48 splittist: because without that sbcl won't be able to find the packages that are required. again, this could also be solved by building the sbcl.core with the required packages loaded. 16:02:48 beta-dog: ummm, yes. As you can see by the date on the blog entry this was some 2.5 years ago, so I've forgotten/supressed some of the pain^W details involved (: 16:03:18 -!- jaxni [n=sjdo@bl10-177-8.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 16:04:56 splittist: but writing a variable binding script would be better for adding other packages without building the core everytime you need new ones 16:05:38 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:05:52 splittist: anyway, this seemed to me like a good idea, i'll prepare one for myself soon :) thanks. 16:06:59 manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 16:07:14 beta-dog: blog your experiences/recipe for success (: 16:08:52 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:11:34 splittist: ok, i will :) this would even be turned into a small distro by the way :) anyway, last questions, in fact the first ones: does mcclim on xming work fast? is the whole mcclim package is usable on xming? also is it a buggy runtime or totally fine? i mean do you recognize that you're working on a compability layer at runtime, or does it seem totally native? 16:13:16 splittist: because if it seems like a reliable and native method, i think i'll switch to mcclim from ltk in no time 16:13:44 does gtkairo work on windows? 16:13:49 <_3b> does mcclim feel 'native' on any platform? 16:13:55 beta-dog: I don't think the speed of mcclim on xming is different from its speed on any other X. You can certainly tell you're using a CLIM app rather than a native windows one from the widgets - but, again, no different from CLIM on X elsewhere. 16:14:26 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-10.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 16:14:35 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151245.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:15:06 _3b: genera? 16:15:09 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:16:05 _3b: pehehe i've never got the chance to see how mcclim works, all i know is its quite suitable for cl applications 16:16:30 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 16:18:03 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:19:49 _3b: i didn't exactly wanted to learn if its totally native in fact, what i really wonder is which one would you choose if portability was also one of your critereas, ltk or mcclim?, 16:20:44 <_3b> i'd probably pick mcclim and write an opengl/windows backend, but i tend to do things the hard way 16:22:27 _3b: i don't tend to do things the hard way because every way is already hard to me since i'm a newb 16:22:36 _3b: :) 16:23:17 <_3b> right, i was pointing out why my choice might not be relevant :) 16:23:17 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-161-244.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:24:11 rread [n=rread@12.155.31.10] has joined #lisp 16:24:17 phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 16:25:38 _3b: then what i should do is waiting for you switch to win and write a backend, yes, that's my way :) 16:25:58 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:26:09 <_3b> if you aren't in a hurry, that could be reasonable 16:26:18 i'd write an AI which would write mcclim backends for me 16:27:56 stassats: so everyone except me tends to do things the hard way :) 16:28:15 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 16:29:19 well, it would be a general AI, which could do many other things, so it would be a good investment 16:30:05 but write your AI in ruby please, they could use a nice AI winter ;) 16:30:39 josemanuel [n=josemanu@204.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:30:54 then i'd need to learn ruby, that is a hard way 16:31:15 does Vamsee Kanakala reside in #lisp? 16:32:25 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:33:04 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 16:34:27 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@204.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 16:37:00 madnificent: who is vamsee 16:37:43 beta-dog: the guy that built cl-migrations 16:38:27 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-170.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 16:38:34 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:38:58 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 16:39:05 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:39:21 hmm 16:39:25 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 16:39:55 anyway, i've to go, thanks everyone for answering. 16:39:59 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:10 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@143-235-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:41:01 Xof: I would give a truly lousy tutorial on SBCL internals, though you might argue I have time to learn about them before ELS. 16:42:00 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:42:02 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.236.228] has left #lisp 16:42:28 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:24 milanj [n=milan@212.200.223.60] has joined #lisp 16:48:19 deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:27 beta-dog: have fun 16:50:16 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:50:57 *TimoT* is having fun with sparse matrices 16:51:02 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:13 TimoT: what support is there for that in lisp? 16:51:21 sb-alien 16:51:45 _8david: a non-debug build of QT isn't that big, surely? 16:53:09 <_8david> I'm down to 65 MB uncompressed now, including the CCL core. 16:53:53 <_8david> don't know whether those dlls have debugging symbols in them 16:54:04 (QT for mac is ridiculously big as a standard installation, due to it coming with 3 separate archs) 16:54:18 _8david: you fixed the ccl crash then? 16:54:25 madnificent: I built an interface to CHOLMOD, I mostly need it to solve sparse block structured optimization problems. 16:54:42 rsynnott: my /usr/lib/qt4(all stripped) takes 44 Mbytes 16:54:51 TimoT: ahaa, that was what I was wondering about (I assumed you were linking it to something proprietary) 16:55:14 <_8david> Xof: no, this is with the terrible hack I mentioned before, which "fixes" both SBCL and CCL at the expense of being much slower than a real FFI solution 16:55:34 we can't have that 16:55:38 sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4AB11.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:55:40 _8david: what's that? 16:55:52 tunneling smoke stuff through something else, or something? 16:56:29 <_8david> rsynnott: the process talks to itself over a socket, so that the Lisp thread is paired with a non-Lisp QThread that does the actual C++ calls 16:56:45 eek 16:56:46 evil! 16:56:48 :) 16:57:09 though for UI stuff, probably good enough most of the time 16:57:16 (and better than ltk) 16:58:10 <_8david> http://common-lisp.net/~dlichteblau/t14.zip # extract, then run t14.bat 16:58:32 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:59:52 have you released code for this? :) 17:01:14 oh, it's a tcp socket! 17:01:45 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 17:03:43 <_8david> not yet, it's not clean enough to be committed. But I could zip it up for you if you want to play with it. 17:04:30 ah, sure I'll wait for a release :) 17:04:43 *rsynnott* should really be doing proper work at the moment, anyway 17:05:40 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 17:05:41 perdix [n=perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has joined #lisp 17:05:47 -!- perdix [n=perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has left #lisp 17:06:35 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:08:03 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 17:08:04 seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 17:08:53 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:09:01 jonathon [n=user@66.43.153.130] has joined #lisp 17:09:04 <_8david> it's tcp because I hadn't found out about QLocalSocket yet 17:09:04 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:15 though, actually, is interacting with named pipes practical from ccl? 17:10:17 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:10:20 s0ber [i=pie@118-168-238-136.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:38 -!- sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B484F6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:13:43 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-170.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:19:27 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 17:20:05 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:20:23 -!- ejs0 [n=eugen@143-235-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:20:28 jdijk [i=jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has joined #lisp 17:20:43 -!- jdijk [i=jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 17:21:28 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:22:04 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:22:25 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:14 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:25:26 -!- dwave [n=ask@084202073031.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 17:25:58 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:26:46 -!- TimoT [n=ttossava@cs163143.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:27:37 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:28:09 -!- beta-dog [n=user@88.238.219.37] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:29:16 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-172.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:29:18 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:52 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-170.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 17:32:49 -!- rread [n=rread@12.155.31.10] has quit [] 17:33:47 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:36:36 kiuma_ [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:40:13 -!- kiuma_ [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:40:49 ejs [n=eugen@50-124-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:51 I think I have a simple example where if I can understand it, I'll be close to understanding the concept behind backquote and comma. 17:40:55 (let ((a 1)) ``(',a ,',a)) 17:41:21 In the second expression of the backquoted list, what is the leftmost comma evaluating? 17:41:53 If it is evaluating the QUOTE special operator, why isn't the result the same as the first term? 17:42:39 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.231.123] has joined #lisp 17:48:13 jonathon: '1 is equal to 1 17:48:51 Right... 17:49:18 <_3b> any good libraries for generating css from lisp? 17:49:35 But one splices in the binding for A while the other does not.... 17:49:56 jonathon: it's more obvious what's going on if you (setf *print-pretty* nil) 17:50:09 ok... I'll try that... 17:51:03 How should (QUOTE QUOTE) be understood? 17:51:28 <_3b> it evaluates to the symbol QUOTE 17:51:44 So that doesn't help me much..... 17:51:59 jonathon: the lesson to take away here is that using double-backquotes is a sure road to insanity 17:52:35 or MORE! 17:52:40 Then here is what I don't get... if it's macros, and therefore mastery of backquotes that gives lisp it's real power, why is it so discouraged? 17:52:45 minion: chant 17:52:45 MORE OBVIOUS 17:52:49 (someone posted something with at least three nested layers a while back) 17:53:12 jonathon: mastery of backquotes is not equivalent to macros 17:53:22 jonathon: backquotes are merely useful in the simpler sort of macro 17:53:49 *_3b* gets the impression most people just poke multiple level ` til it works , or break it out into separate functions or build the lists by hand 17:53:55 I understand that, but don't many of the more complex macros nest backquotes? 17:54:06 complex - no 17:54:07 jonathon: no, they call functions 17:54:10 complicated - yes 17:54:11 jonathon: Nesting backquotes is more a trial-and-error process; I try to avoid them for anything complex 17:54:46 _3b: rather like the practice of randomly adding 'const' to things seen so often in C++ :) 17:54:48 expression of complex stuff still should be done as simply as possible ;) 17:54:59 So ridiculous use of backquotes could be avoided by composing more complex macros out of function calls, rather than multiple levels of backquoting? 17:55:06 I mean, the whole point of lisp macros is that you have the whole lisp system at your disposal. Why cram everything into a backquote? 17:56:05 backquoting is, in essence, a fancy way to construct lists of mixed literal and evaluated data 17:56:20 if it's too complicated to understand, it's pretty useless 17:56:30 Right. A way that apparently defies understanding. ;) 17:56:35 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70dcd6.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:56:49 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 17:57:03 The real place I see them is macro-building-macros. 17:57:06 jonathon: Read Alan Bawdens quasiquote paper 17:57:07 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:57:59 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 17:58:04 Greetings! 17:58:04 Ah, found it. I'll check it out. 17:58:09 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 17:58:10 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 17:58:48 malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:59:21 Ragnaroek [i=54a64160@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-984dcd8c4c211e97] has joined #lisp 18:00:07 can anyone recommend me something like http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/elisp/html_node/Indenting-Macros.html but that you can do in common lisp macros? basically i'm looking for a way to control how emacs indents macros so that they are done in, for example, the style of a defun. 18:00:44 <_3b> have you tried using &body for the args of the macro? 18:00:51 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-170.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:00:52 yes 18:01:13 well I have current have (matrix i j &body body) as the argument list for the macro 18:01:37 i want to give the arguments for matrix, i and j on the same line as the macro name and then body underneath, indented by 2 spaces or whatever 18:01:41 malcolm_reynolds: Slime is pretty good at getting the indentation right automatically. 18:01:46 malcolm_reynolds: Hello, have you been able to try to set the *EPSILON* parameter for your testing? 18:02:23 tmh: ah hello, haven't tried it yet but your email made a lot of sense. my supervisor just sent me an alternate method for computing pseudoinverses so i'm currently working on that.. 18:02:40 malcolm_reynolds: use ((matrix i j) &body body) 18:02:42 antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-fefeae40d054e67e] has joined #lisp 18:03:10 malcolm_reynolds: Good, glad it made sense. I appreciate the feedback I'm getting from your use. 18:03:33 tcr: brilliant, that did the trick. thanks. 18:03:50 HowIsItPossible [n=user@ip-221.net-89-2-129.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:05:15 tmh: you're very welcome. I'm just glad people like you and liam are actively doing this stuff - if I wanted to do the kind of project I'm starting a couple years ago I don't think it would have been feasable in CL, in terms of the infrastructure I'd need to spend time coding 18:05:26 malcolm_reynolds: Personally, I'd perhaps rather use (matrix (i j) &body body) 18:06:15 or even ((i j) matrix &body body) 18:06:36 or even (i j matrix &body body) 18:07:21 No that not 18:07:25 (i j matrix &body body) is what I started with 18:08:04 malcolm_reynolds: Thanks. That's the definitely the motivation. The linear algebra/scientific computing environment in Common Lisp should greatly improve over the next couple of years. I'm working on some linear algebra stuff in support of my PhD that should start trickling out publicly over the next year. 18:08:05 tcr: I think this paper is exactly what I was looking for! 18:08:07 -!- HowIsItPossible [n=user@ip-221.net-89-2-129.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:08:48 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:08:48 I'm going to start coordinating with other projects like Liam's GSLL so that we can get a unified linear algebra interface. 18:09:16 tmh: sounds cool. I'm a masters student in machine learning, and after my undergrad project in matlab i knew there was no way i was touching that for significant work again 18:09:24 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:48 -!- snippyhollow [n=snippyho@tkbn103153.catv.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["'night alls!"] 18:10:12 but it has such a strong foothold in the community that you get funny looks for suggesting that in some cases, matlab is not the right tool for the job.. 18:11:51 malcolm_reynolds: That's been my experience with most scientific communities. They congregate to some tool and then look at you funny if you suggest that there might be a better way. 18:12:44 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f49c8.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 18:12:54 *rsynnott* wonders is the great affinity of natural scientists for fortran a function of that 18:12:55 -!- vng [n=vuong@222.253.76.223] has left #lisp 18:14:01 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-218.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:14:25 rsynnott: My background is in Aerospace and the scary thing is that there is a big push to transition from Fortran to C++. If C++ is the alternative, I'll stick with Fortran, thank you. Luckily, I'm independent enough that I can choose my own language. 18:14:38 If it proved to work in the past reasonably, why change? There's no indication that the investment to learn something different would really pay off if you only use it occasionally 18:14:53 -!- jonathon [n=user@66.43.153.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:16:18 khumba [n=khumba@S0106001e2ac2d18e.ok.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:39 tcr: true. i guess in machine learning's case a lot of the people who come into it from non-CS backgrounds stare blankly when someone asks them about type systems or scope or why indenting your code is good 18:16:47 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 18:16:50 so matlab is pretty much ideal for them 18:21:13 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit [Client Quit] 18:22:32 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:23:42 tcr: Most of the time the communities can't see past the tool they're using and develop elaborate ways to work around limitations of that tool rather than evaluating something new. 18:25:29 Sure. That's why cross-disciple collaboration projects are a very good thing 18:27:04 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 18:27:25 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.231.123] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:29:39 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:30:03 tmh: interesting that you and I are in essentially the same field. 18:30:12 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 18:31:00 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:31:16 LiamH: Oh yeah? My background is structural dynamics and aeroelastics, but the last several years I've been researching composite laminates for wind turbines. What are you working on? 18:31:53 My background is in physics, but I got into astrodynamics and orbit mechanics by way of celestial mechanics. 18:32:28 And then into (space) robotics and now a bit of radio astronomy, oddly enough. 18:33:21 My introduction to Lisp was by way of doing computer algebra on Symbolics for solving celestial mechanics problems, back in the late 80s. 18:33:21 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@192-126.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["back to earth"] 18:33:36 tmh: After your phd, you could consider moving to munich; there's a company building air engines, and some part of their physic modelling software is written in Common Lisp. 18:33:46 Ah, I have a straight aerospace engineering degree that emphasized more AERO in aerospace. We only had a small introduction to orbital mechanics. 18:34:52 tmh: yeah, a lot of schools do that. I teach at the University of Maryland and they have separate tracks for "aero" and "space", but a lot of programs don't bother separating them. 18:35:19 tcr: Thank you very much for the offer, but I can't get my wife to move out of the mid-western United States because it would be too far from family. 18:36:00 LiamH: My introduction to Lisp was self-motivated. By the way, have you had a chance to skim over my linear algebra draft? 18:36:27 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-2e0187b7953dbeab] has joined #lisp 18:36:44 tmh: not yet, I'll get to it soon. Lots of things going on in my "real" jobs, and I haven't had the time. 18:36:46 tcr: On the other hand, I operate a small consulting company if you'd like to outsource. ;-) 18:37:18 work on GSLL and FSBV has slowed down too 18:37:25 tmh: is the draft publicly available? 18:37:47 LiamH: Understand, thanks. I'm actually working on it today. Maybe I can get you the revision before you get to this one. 18:38:02 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 18:38:12 tmh: please do send. I am not ignoring it! 18:38:48 tmh: It seems that the company is also located near East Hartford, Connecticut 18:39:03 michaelw: No, but when I encounter someone that has interest in it, I'm more than happy to send out the draft. Right now it's just a document, but by the end of the month, I should have some code that is usable. 18:39:17 -!- erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 18:39:38 michaelw: Actually, I have the code now, but I'm unit testing it and finding errors, so when the errors are corrected, I'll distribute the code. 18:39:48 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host203.190-137-195.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:40:00 erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 18:40:45 tcr: I don't mean to be difficult, I really appreciate the offer, but I pushed my wife to look at a job in Ohio, and that was too far East. 18:41:16 And she is the primary bread winner, so her job takes precedence. 18:41:30 No problem, I just know they're looking for a Lisp programmer, and your background seems like a perfect fit 18:42:09 tcr: Thanks. 18:42:29 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 18:42:51 michaelw: If you're interested in the linear algebra library, you can get my email off of http://repo.or.cz/w/lisp-unit.git 18:45:31 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D650.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:29 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-218.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:53:08 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:53:42 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:54:43 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 18:55:11 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-5b04d2b2a920874d] has joined #lisp 18:58:10 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:58:16 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-14.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:59:50 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:00:30 jao [n=jao@11.Red-79-155-154.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:55 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:00:58 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 19:02:14 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:31 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:05:59 is this the continuation of http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/lisp-unit.html ? 19:06:34 yes, enhancement 19:06:44 Ragnaroek: Yes, floating point predicates and stuff. 19:07:15 tmh: do you think it's a good time to add a link to the cliki page? 19:07:40 oh, thats great 19:07:52 LiamH: I have it as the URL for the project, do you mean somewhere else? 19:07:55 I made my own small extension while using the original lisp-unit 19:08:28 Ragnaroek: Look over what we've done and see if you have anything else you want rolled-in. 19:08:31 tmh: other way around, put a link from the cliki page to repo.or.cz, to let people know there's an enhanced version around. 19:08:32 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:09:03 I'll do that 19:09:50 LiamH: Oh, sure. Actually, if you're busy, I can do that, I've been meaning to learn to edit stuff on Cliki. 19:09:58 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 19:10:20 *tmh* clicks the edit link. 19:10:22 tmh: go ahead 19:10:26 Hmm, I don't even need an account. 19:10:35 tmh: read the disclaimer 19:10:57 "CLiki pages can be edited by anyone at any time. Imagine a fearsomely comprehensive disclaimer of liability. Now fear, comprehensively" 19:11:35 LiamH: I don't think I truly appreciated that disclaimer before now. It was one of those things I'd skim over chuckle and move on. 19:11:38 LiamH: if you've got a minute could you look at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78643 and tell me whether that's the most efficient (cache-wise) way to iterate through a gsll marray? or do I want to be going columns-first? 19:12:22 row-major, like C or CL (well, likely) 19:13:02 malcolm_reynolds: I would have said I don't have any sense, except what pkhuong says. But it probably makes little difference in practice. 19:13:18 okay, thanks to you both. 19:13:57 Also, #'dim0 and #'dim1 will give you the first and second dimension, I find them a little more transparent than car and cadr, but that's a question of personal preference. 19:14:25 as in (dim0 matrix) or (dim1 matrix) 19:15:04 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:16:55 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 19:17:17 malcolm_reynolds: why is that called def-...? 19:17:48 i thought i remembered reading somewhere that the macro indentation was sensitive to whether it began with def. i know, it should just be matrix-traversal. 19:18:19 ejs0 [n=eugen@50-124-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:28 LiamH: yeah, that is much better. I assumed there was a way somewhere but I'm still learning my way around gsll. thanks! 19:18:47 malcolm_reynolds: do-matrix would be an appropriate name 19:19:00 yeah, true. 19:19:38 malcolm_reynolds: BTW, I don't know if you use iterate, but I had in mind some extensions that would make it easy to iterate over marrays. Someone independently sent me some definitions, but I haven't had a chance to do anything with it yet. Another thing on my list. 19:19:49 minion: iterate 19:19:51 iterate: iterate is a lispy and extensible replacement for the :(CLHS "LOOP") macro. http://www.cliki.net/iterate 19:21:10 malcolm_reynolds: There's one problem with your definition, DO-like macros usually establish a NIL-named block around the code, so you can use RETURN to get out of the loop. In your definition, a usage of RETURN would only get you out of the inner DO form. 19:21:29 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6C1BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 19:22:02 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:22:12 Your macro also doesn't cope well with declarations 19:22:29 ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@88-108-111-126.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 19:22:30 LiamH: ah interesting. I haven't seen that before, i'm just learning lisp and the loop macro still makes me slightly scared so i'll probably pass for now 19:22:35 I really need to look into iterate. 19:22:46 tcr: you mean if the argument passed in as the matrix is (make-marray ..) or some such? 19:22:52 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 19:24:05 tcr: as for the block, you mean just replace ,@body with (block nil ,@body) ? 19:24:10 malcolm_reynolds: No, it's a somewhat advanced topic; but mind you, many iteration macros do not get this right. 19:24:47 tcr: okay. i have "on lisp" on my reading list, will it be covered in there? 19:24:49 LiamH: I changing the instructions on the cliki page to use GIT to get lisp-unit. At some point, we'll need to make a release that is ASDF installable. 19:24:52 malcolm_reynolds: No that won't do it. Basically, you'd have to rewrite the thing using PROG, and explicit goto-based loops 19:25:17 malcolm_reynolds: I'm afraid not. I intended to write a few blog posts about this topic, but I haven't had time for it so far. 19:25:24 kruth [n=chatzill@kruth.org] has joined #lisp 19:25:24 tmh: I've never had much luck with asdf-install, but if you want to add that, go ahead. 19:26:14 LiamH: Ah, good. I have never used asdf-install, I just thought it was the thing to do. I'll not worry about it unless someone complains. 19:26:42 malcolm_reynolds: Making your own macros be of similiar quality as the macros in the Common Lisp standard is pretty tedious work. Devil is in the details 19:26:50 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-14.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:27:24 tcr: yeah, seems so. but I can definitely live without being able to (return) from the middle of that, at least for the moment. 19:27:24 loop has NAMED keyword, which establishes a block 19:28:01 instead of the default NIL-named 19:28:27 tcr: where's your blog at? always looking for more lispy reading.. 19:28:30 Expanding to LOOP is the worst you can do 19:28:45 malcolm_reynolds: It's subscribed to planet.lisp 19:28:57 right, thanks 19:29:08 so if you check that, you won't miss the posting if I'll ever get to them 19:30:14 cool. just to check I understand you right, my idea of (block nil ,@body) doesn't work because both the do loops themselves also establish a nil named block, is that right? 19:30:59 that's the reason why (block nil (do (...) (do (...) ,@body))) doesn't work 19:32:08 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:34:25 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 19:39:32 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:42:04 -!- ejs0 [n=eugen@50-124-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:42:12 -!- khumba [n=khumba@S0106001e2ac2d18e.ok.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:42:52 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 19:45:20 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 19:46:18 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-8.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:47:24 Hexstream [n=hexstrea@modemcable240.109-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:47:25 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:48:00 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:49:36 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 19:51:16 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 19:53:11 -!- sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4AB11.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:54:18 Hi, I'm getting a SB-KERNEL::CONTROL-STACK-EXHAUSTED error while invoking make.sh to build SBCL 1.0.25 on x86-64. What should I do?... 19:54:42 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:55:32 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:55:57 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 19:56:05 Hexstream pasted "SB-KERNEL::CONTROL-STACK-EXHAUSTED error while invoking make.sh to build SBCL 1.0.25 on x86-64" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78646 19:57:16 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-80-229.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 19:58:17 don't know, whether it would help, but did you try to build more recent sbcl? 19:58:37 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 19:59:02 Well, I just noticed the newest version is 1.0.27 so I'm considering pulling from CVS and trying that... 19:59:06 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 19:59:59 -!- kruth [n=chatzill@kruth.org] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609]"] 20:00:06 But I'd have liked to deploy with the same version as I use for development, and I just finished building from source on my local machine o_o 20:00:59 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-8.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 20:01:05 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:02:25 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 20:02:33 <_8david> ulimit? .sbclrc? 20:03:53 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 20:04:01 elias` [n=me@cs78208074.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:04:36 ulimit is unlimited (though I'm using a 256MB RAM slice on slicehost...) 20:05:48 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:06:26 Maybe I'm simply running out of memory now that I think about it. At first I wanted to compile on my x86 with SBCL_ARCH='x86-64' but there was some weird error so I concluded you can only build for the architecture you're compiling from... is that right 20:07:10 Hexstream: slicehost, eh? Neat. Bookmarked. 20:07:26 you also need an appropriate toolchain 20:07:48 well, I have build-essential 20:08:12 for cross-compilation, i mean 20:08:22 -!- ceineke_ is now known as sledge 20:08:37 yes, I have it on both my local machine and the server 20:09:00 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-8.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:10:30 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:37 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:10:53 Hexstream annotated #78646 "my .sbclrc" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78646#1 20:11:18 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 20:11:43 benny` [n=benny@i577A1576.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:12:00 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-172.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:12:56 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:15:30 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:40 -!- a-s [n=user@92.81.117.113] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:23:08 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:25:09 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1F7D.versanet.de] has quit [Success] 20:27:37 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:27:42 Hexstream: no, that's not the problem. On linux, you probably have to make sure the default gcc is for 64 bits. 20:30:46 sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4AB11.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:30:54 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:31:17 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 20:31:44 Oh. I thought the sbcl's make.sh, given SBCL_ARCH='x86-64', would invoke GCC for 64 bits automatically... (I'm not used to dealing with this stuff) 20:33:57 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:34:12 -!- Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:35:32 CC='gcc -m64' might work. 20:36:28 sulo_ [n=sulo@87.180.158.17] has joined #lisp 20:36:36 I think some contribs don't obey $CC, though. echo "#!/bin/sh \n /usr/bin/gcc -m64 $@" > $HOME/bin/gcc (: 20:36:47 a-s [n=user@92.81.117.113] has joined #lisp 20:36:48 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 20:37:42 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:37:55 k, well I started compiling 1.0.27 on the server. Crossing fingers... 20:38:03 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:23 I wish sb-thread was enabled by default, this way I could just use the precompiled version :/ 20:39:01 we need you to suffer 20:39:10 -!- sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4AB11.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:39:12 it validates our own pitiful existence 20:39:26 I understand all of this. 20:40:02 ulfster1 [n=ulf@e179209181.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:40:29 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-7248.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:42:19 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 20:42:31 quick quiz: what do "COMPILED-DEBUG-FUN", "DEBUG-FUN", "INSTRUCTION", "INTERPRETED-PROGRAM-ERROR" and "SEGMENT" have in common? 20:42:45 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a64160@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-984dcd8c4c211e97] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 20:43:07 For me, it's "I have no idea what they are for." :-) 20:43:47 that's about my level too 20:45:58 Good grief. I get the same error as before while compiling 1.0.27 20:46:16 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 20:46:36 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:48:42 however, that's a list of symbol names each of which has _two_ uninterned symbols in cold-sbcl.core 20:48:55 I have no idea why 20:50:01 borism [n=boris@195-50-197-14-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 20:52:59 errr, does this line make sense, please? (let ((clsql-sys:*default-database* clsql-sys:*default-database*)) ....) 20:56:32 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-197-228-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:57:18 -!- deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 20:57:55 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:43 well, that would create a new binding with the value of the enclosing context. Is that what you want? 21:00:23 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:00:52 it won't create a new binding, it would set existing 21:01:31 <_death> huh? let creates bindings 21:01:54 with special variables? 21:01:59 <_death> sure 21:02:16 well, different terminology then 21:02:58 dwave [n=ask@084202073031.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 21:04:32 If something sets the value of *default-database* in the new dynamic context it won't affect the value once the context is exited... That's what I call creating a binding 21:04:43 perhaps, i wanted to say, that it won't create a new variable, but bind existing 21:05:23 ah, I see. so, the author made the code resistant to any setf on *default-database* inside. 21:05:23 thanks 21:06:14 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:07:40 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:50 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has quit [] 21:15:42 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:17:31 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 21:18:56 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host60-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 21:22:03 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 21:23:49 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 21:26:42 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:47 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:33 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 21:34:54 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D650.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:35:54 -!- Hexstream [n=hexstrea@modemcable240.109-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 21:42:57 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:47:32 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:40 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:48:00 rvirding [n=rvirding@h252n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:48:03 -!- jao [n=jao@11.Red-79-155-154.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:48:46 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:49:37 stassats`: not sure if this was clear, but _death and hexstream were right 21:50:21 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:38 S11001001: i know, i was trying to get terminology straight in my head again 21:53:29 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f49c8.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:58:02 friedmeat [n=fruitbag@92.24.47.125] has joined #lisp 21:58:06 -!- ejs [n=eugen@50-124-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:58:14 How would one go about devising an algorithm that would take an algebraic expression and factorise it? 21:59:16 i don't think that's a lisp specific question 21:59:33 -!- jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:59:56 Well, it is if I were to ask how Lisp would provide useful tools for devising such an algorithm. 22:00:03 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:00:06 anyway, PAIP has a chapter about symbolic math 22:00:17 minion: paip? 22:00:18 paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/paip 22:01:49 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:02:20 Guys -- do you know what type of AI system would be fascinating? One that would take an over-worded sentence, and then condense it. For instance, you may choose the following sentence: 'I always like eating apples that are stored in the fridge.' This could be condensed into 'I enjoy cold apples.' 22:02:48 this is #lisp, not #ai 22:02:56 or #nlp 22:03:45 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:03:59 danlei [n=user@pD9E2CE02.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:56 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:45 -!- dwave [n=ask@084202073031.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 22:08:59 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 22:11:53 -!- friedmeat [n=fruitbag@92.24.47.125] has quit [] 22:12:36 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 22:14:15 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:52 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:15:05 -!- tsuru` [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:15:45 hi, what's the story with connection pooling for web applications and clsql? I noticed the usage pattern is: (unwind-protect (let ((clsql-sys:*default-database* (clsql-sys:connect ....)) .... (cl-sql:disconnect)) 22:15:58 will cl-sql:disconnect really disconnect or keep the connection in a pool if I use (cl-sql:connect (list ....) :pool t) ? 22:16:19 and, am I to use CLSQL-Fluid? I am really confused.... 22:16:49 I intend to use postgres-socket backend 22:17:19 why not use postmodern or cl-postgres then? 22:18:31 not sure why I should. clsql has been around for longer, so I thought of using this one. 22:18:42 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2CCCE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:47 basically, I don't know about practical differences 22:19:08 i heard, that postmodern is much faster 22:19:14 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CE02.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:19:18 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 22:19:55 what about connection pooling? 22:20:56 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-199-242.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:46 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-8.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:24:13 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:24:31 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 22:24:49 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:26:00 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless297.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:15 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:35 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 22:34:21 jao [n=jao@54.Red-83-38-56.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:01 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h252n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 22:36:52 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 22:37:49 puchacz: I believe disconnecting a pooled connection will release it back into the pool 22:38:25 ryepup: that would be good, do you know if I can observe it somehow to confirm? 22:38:39 ...talking about clsql here 22:38:58 puchacz: well, you can look at postgres connections using pg_stat_activity to see if your client app is opening/closing 22:39:43 *puchacz* googling for pg_stat_activity 22:39:44 thanks 22:40:07 -!- sulo_ is now known as sulo 22:40:23 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CCCE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:40:49 puchacz: I'm pretty sure it does, cause I remember having problems where one function changed a connection-level configuration (something to do with how the db prints dates or something) and then other functions were getting unexpected data 22:40:52 -!- sulo is now known as _sulo_ 22:41:07 ryepup: thanks, cool 22:41:38 ryepup: can you remember if you had to guard database access somehow, eg. by clsq-fluid? 22:45:44 anyway, you are right, the connections are not dropped 22:45:50 cheers 22:46:06 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:47:56 kidd1 [n=kidd@60.Red-79-150-112.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:11 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:48:19 puchacz: I'm not familiar with clsql-fluid, and unsure what you mean by "guard database access" 22:48:55 ryepup: against multiple threads accessing the same connection maybe? 22:48:56 puchacz: we did end up adding some macros/functions to enable functions to reuse open connections if a calling function had already opened a connection somewhere higher in the stack 22:49:25 understand, like with-request 22:50:02 Hexstream [n=hexstrea@modemcable240.109-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:50:13 puchacz: looking at the with-database macro my coworkers sorted out, I think making lexical bindings to clsql:*default-database* solved our thread-safety concerns 22:50:53 oki, great, thanks 22:51:03 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:07 puchacz: don't hold me to that, though 22:51:13 :-) 22:51:59 (herep drewc) 22:52:25 drewc: herep (guess highlighting won't work otherwise) 22:53:31 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-182.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 22:53:48 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 22:55:28 -!- Hexstream [n=hexstrea@modemcable240.109-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 22:56:49 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-2e0187b7953dbeab] has quit [] 22:59:18 -!- ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@88-108-111-126.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:03:06 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 23:05:41 -!- _sulo_ [n=sulo@87.180.158.17] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:08:23 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A3AF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:12:03 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151245.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:13:08 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 23:15:17 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.223.60] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:17:02 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:20:04 -!- antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-fefeae40d054e67e] has left #lisp 23:20:49 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-5.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 23:23:32 -!- ulfster1 [n=ulf@e179209181.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:26:26 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:32:13 bascule [i=noether@62.75.255.124] has joined #lisp 23:32:32 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:30 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["bb"] 23:47:51 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 23:50:42 gtasso [i=ca5027a2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ff64f43ab46e7f8b] has joined #lisp 23:50:55 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@e244075.upc-e.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:55:40 rvirding [n=rvirding@81.225.114.252] has joined #lisp 23:57:37 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:59:18 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp