00:02:59 Ugh. Every time I turn around there's some complication with what I've already got for my Win32 bindings. 00:04:28 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has left #lisp 00:04:40 division-bell [n=user@88.238.207.213] has joined #lisp 00:04:45 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p4FD2ACC6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:05:41 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483AD18.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:06:45 -!- jao [n=jao@126.Red-83-33-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 00:10:54 jao [n=jao@173.Red-79-155-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:58 division` [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 00:12:13 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:17:41 -!- jao [n=jao@173.Red-79-155-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:20:58 -!- division` [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:21:21 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student166-185.hampshire.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:22:36 -!- bkudria [n=bkudria@kudria.net] has quit ["ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"] 00:28:43 -!- division-bell [n=user@88.238.207.213] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:11 division-bell [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 00:31:26 -!- division-bell [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:31:31 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:32:09 jao [n=jao@170.Red-79-156-141.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:41 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 00:34:27 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 00:36:37 alexsharma [n=alexshar@cpe-76-171-4-238.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:36:59 lnostdal: do you know about computed-class? 00:38:02 -!- alexsharma [n=alexshar@cpe-76-171-4-238.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:39:13 yes, luis .. i should probably have looked at it before doing this .. i had to make sure the dataflow part worked with the transaction part though, and it does now 00:39:53 ..i tried cells (after not having tried in a long time), but could not get it up and running 00:41:40 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:43:45 fax [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 00:45:15 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:45:16 -!- fax [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:46:33 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-68-239-77-4.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:27 where's the code? 00:47:54 none yet, hefner 00:48:05 .. 00:49:13 *hefner* needs to read the sussman propagator thing 00:49:53 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 00:54:41 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:54:47 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:55:13 jfactor [n=jfactor@student166-185.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 00:57:37 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D593.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:00:59 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:51 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-43b3c0189fab2836] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:05:13 -!- jao [n=jao@170.Red-79-156-141.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:06:46 rullie__ [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176149011.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:07:28 -!- rullie__ [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176149011.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:12:57 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:14:52 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 01:20:14 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.27] has joined #lisp 01:25:10 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Success] 01:26:29 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 01:26:43 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:28:06 hi, has anyone used cl-alsa? 01:29:08 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:30:49 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Client Quit] 01:31:13 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D54C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:19 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.27] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:32:08 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-112-110.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:12 Does anyone know is it possible to figure out when cliki was updated (i.e. revision time/date stamp)? 01:37:04 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:08 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 01:42:17 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:42:18 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.27] has joined #lisp 01:44:16 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:45:55 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 01:46:59 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:49:20 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-20-255.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:51:25 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-36-99.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:51:28 wentbackward: Does the recent changes link help? 01:52:49 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:53:24 rtoym: It does somewhat, but as it shows everything, I end up branching off to all sorts of interesting things I shouldn't be doing! 01:54:37 How about if you hover over the revision at the bottom? 01:55:13 Aha, perfect! Thanks 02:03:51 zen_balrog [n=johnnyc@adsl-69-150-85-11.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:09 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 02:13:28 ... You know you're a little loopy when you're typing out a class definition and you see ":accessor hgdiobj-hgdiobj" in a slot definition. 02:14:10 sure. shouldn't that be hgdiobj-hgdiobj-of? 02:15:09 Umm... No. 02:23:15 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has joined #lisp 02:25:11 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-e37350a0318f8061] has joined #lisp 02:27:01 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-53fcc9924aeda7b3] has joined #lisp 02:27:29 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-53fcc9924aeda7b3] has left #lisp 02:27:37 -!- bugrum [n=vedam@c-98-201-95-13.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:28:01 Lou_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 02:29:41 WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:55 Hello, are there any ECL gurus in the house? 02:30:11 *nyef* blinks in confusion at a :type (or symbol null) option for a structure slot. 02:32:08 -!- Martinp23 is now known as martinip23 02:32:39 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [] 02:37:23 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:42:16 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.197] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:42:27 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:24 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 02:46:34 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:04 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-209-210.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 02:47:28 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-98.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:48:28 Okay, time I got some sleep. I'll probably be back tomorrow evening. 02:48:31 -!- nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 02:52:08 smoochy [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 02:52:52 -!- smoochy [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:54:05 smoochy [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 02:54:38 -!- smoochy [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:57:46 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-163-108.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:16 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:59:26 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 02:59:44 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:59:51 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-86-176.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:00 cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:16 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-0cb2cde7c4ba0cdd] has joined #lisp 03:00:30 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-0cb2cde7c4ba0cdd] has left #lisp 03:01:31 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-68-239-77-4.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:01:52 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p4FCF3143.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:06:35 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-36-99.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:06:40 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-36-99.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:09:06 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:10:18 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032608]"] 03:15:52 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.109] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:27:01 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:32:40 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 03:33:39 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.199.215] has joined #lisp 03:34:48 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:34:58 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-8.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:10 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-218-167.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:35:50 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:38:32 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.27] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:39:38 coffeemug [n=coffeemu@ool-457219b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:47 hi 03:39:59 does anyone know of a blocking queue library for common lisp? 03:41:29 -!- lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-209-210.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:42:02 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-212-126.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 03:43:36 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-227-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 03:45:55 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has quit [Client Quit] 03:47:16 yoonkn [n=yoonkn@210.108.170.71] has joined #lisp 03:48:37 gonzojive [n=red@c-24-130-53-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:19 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D54C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:59:14 what's a blocking queue? 04:00:00 *hefner* guesses what you get when a mutex, a condition variable, and some cons cells love each other very much 04:00:26 hefner: 2 condvars if the queue is bounded. 04:00:46 that's too high tech for me, but I learn something every day 04:01:35 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-25-56.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:02:07 hefner: yeah, something like that 04:02:16 hefner: very useful, occassionally 04:02:51 -!- lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-212-126.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:04:44 coffeemug: just take a regular unbounded queue, add a lock and a condvar; voila! 04:05:11 pkhuong: yeah, these things can be somewhat tricky to implement right 04:06:56 if you just want to block and aren't trying to handle ungodly amounts of concurrency, I don't see how. 04:07:30 pkhuong: it's a read-write lock, the push is async but pop is sync 04:07:54 err, not a read-write lock 04:08:40 though I'm reticent to plug it, you can try mine: http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/hacks/message-queue.lisp 04:08:43 I think I got it rightish. 04:08:58 concurrent-enqueue: with-lock: enqueue, signal condition. concurrent dequeue: with-lock: while empty, wait on condvar; dequeue. 04:09:46 hair only happens when you try to be cleverer than that. 04:09:59 -!- koaftder [n=koft@adsl-77-239-166.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:10:37 pkhuong: yeah, that sounds about right 04:10:39 hefner: thanks! 04:12:59 coffeemug: that sounds like one of those things best hacked together yourself, with Ben-Ari in hand :-) 04:13:13 coffeemug: what's it for? 04:14:36 hi S11001001 04:15:03 greetings 04:15:38 would you object to adding luis's trivial-garbage to the deps? 04:15:42 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:15:54 err, basically I'm writing code to customize skins and such, so I want a preview feature. The moment you change some option, firefox will be started on a virtual framebuffer x server, render the preview, its image will be captures, and shown to the user 04:16:10 no, actually I'm using trivial-garbage locally 04:16:18 it's pretty useful 04:16:29 cool 04:16:30 so I need to queue the preview snapshot requests 04:16:50 also, sounds dangerous 04:17:08 how so? 04:17:24 I guess it depends on how much control you give over the customization 04:17:33 -!- spacebat_ is now known as spacebat 04:17:48 enough to make people happy but not so much that they can make something that looks like myspace :) 04:17:49 S11001001: I read your blog post on cl-cont. looked pretty hard to me. i don't think i still got it after several re-readings. 04:18:00 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:29 fusss: what caught you up? 04:19:20 i haven't really understood cps to begin with, but your post said cl-cont wasn't just a vanilla call/cc 04:20:16 i just needed enough cps to implement a useful web framework for myself (and by useful i mean something i can hack on myself; i don't really care for MVC atm.) 04:20:27 yes, plain call/cc doesn't include DNCCs 04:20:34 I've seen people mention that call/cc involves a performance hit, but I'm not sure why 04:21:00 because you have to reify the continuations or make it possible to do so 04:21:15 I'm actually not so sure that continuation web frameworks are a good idea... 04:21:22 cl-cont works by reifying every continuation, arnesi just interprets Lisp 04:21:40 I'll have to look up reify in this context 04:22:04 coffeemug: I don't know, the bit of hfsbo.com that controls the place-an-advertisement flow is really neat 04:22:12 concise, easy to follow 04:22:24 S11001001: i don't need to go back to denotational semantics just yet :-P what i'm trying to do is streamline user login, product listing, shopping cart and checkout; but all should have some intermediate prompting dialogs for feedback,progress and error correction. 04:22:27 but to be fair that's one of the only 2 CC flows in the whole site 04:22:33 yeah, it's pretty cool once you get it working, it's just that if you encounter a bug, it can be hell to resolve 04:23:00 I have an idea on that, I just don't know if I'll ever get around to implementing it 04:23:06 but that's probably weblocks/cl-cont specific issue, not continatuions in general 04:23:27 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 04:23:31 it involves delaying the decision as to whether to actually reify the continuations until it is determined whether it is possible a continuation will be captured in a particular block of code 04:24:03 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-93.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 04:24:06 S11001001: that's what the famous stackhack does. 04:24:55 are there any example to do what i want above with conditions? 04:25:22 smoochy [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 04:25:53 -!- smoochy [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:26:01 e.g. if you are expanding symbol-macros, and you assume that all functions in CL cannot capture continuations (are defined in an LNCC), then (car a b) can be expanded to (funcall cc (car a b)) instead of the whole hullabaloo, and so on upwards. But even this isn't complete, because there are overlapping optimizations to do 04:26:45 smoochy [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 04:27:31 fusss: no, that's not what they're for. If you want intermediate, runtime-escapable logic, you have three choices: continuations, threads, and state machines 04:28:23 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D54C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:36 that is NOT how i was^H^H^H taught myself to program. :-P let me give it a harder thought, beer permitting.. 04:31:26 you know, i just wanted to implement everything with session variables and a few conditionals. but my idea falls apart as soon as the user visits the site from another browser window. 04:32:04 oh who actually does that anyway 04:32:07 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-e37350a0318f8061] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:32:10 how come i got away with very little "design" when doing shopping carts in perl? 04:32:12 we totally ignore it in Weblocks 04:32:25 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-fa969f8e029257b5] has joined #lisp 04:32:41 it will pop you back to where you were if you load the page in another window 04:32:44 S11001001: so if a user has an active session and fetches a page in the site from another tab, what is he given? 04:32:56 yeah, that's what i want to do 04:33:03 depends on your selectors (a kind of widget that is url-sensitive) 04:33:10 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Client Quit] 04:33:24 but if you aren't using selectors (quite rare actually), you'll get exactly what your page state was before 04:33:44 if you had done a search, and drilled into an item, you'll get the search with that item still drilled down to 04:34:50 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:34:52 so you're maintaining that state with continuations. any straightforward ways other than cl-cont to do that? I get the state machine part, but not the "threads" part above. 04:35:02 no, we maintain it with session state 04:35:35 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:35:41 but timeline flows are easiest to manage (which gets magically written back to the session's widget tree) with cl-cont 04:35:51 just good ole hunchentoot session-store/session-value? 04:36:02 just one big blob of stuff 04:36:11 clos objects? 04:36:19 saying YIELD escapes, saves the old widget, replaces it in the tree, and rerenders the containing widget 04:36:26 a tree of 'em 04:36:28 *fusss* is fishing for datastructures without resorting to grep, etags or M-. ;-) 04:36:36 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:36:43 I wouldn't 04:36:51 implementing your own, that way madness lies 04:37:04 there are a few existing, jump on board one 04:37:13 doesn't have to be weblocks :) 04:37:27 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:37:45 thing is, i'm much more comfortable with crap i write. at least i have a confidence test, even a very low one. 04:38:23 are you going to write your own Lisp as well? 04:38:26 i'm forced to serve pages to people in another continent, and they're mostly on slow lines; doesn't leave allot of room for creativity 04:39:06 no, hunchentoot on sbcl serves me pretty well. i can keep a clos instance for each user just fine, just wanted a clean, idiomatic way. 04:39:32 er, weblocks is great for slow connections, beyond having to load prototype on first connect 04:39:50 why isn't there any easy to use setups like lispbox for cl (but more complex ones)? 04:39:51 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:40:17 what's the current status of the weblocks manual? the project page claims it will be released last january... 04:42:02 i mean i format my pc so many times so i turned my already configured environment into an installer for winXP. and its so easy to do. 04:42:19 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:24 jlf`: rlpowell did a nice gonzo tutorial on weblocks 04:42:52 smoochy: what is your question exactly? 04:42:53 then i tried to adjust it for being able to installed to any 32bit XP just to see if its harder to do. and again, its easy 04:43:43 my question is why isn't noone doing it? 04:44:28 doing what? 04:44:37 the intersection of ability, interest and time is tiny. 04:44:58 i mean it was really too hard for me to setup emacs + slime + sbcl + popular packages + useful elisps etc. 04:45:02 especially on win 04:45:15 clbuild makes that fairly simple, ime. 04:45:17 fusss: thanks, reading 04:45:35 is it portable to win? 04:46:28 smoochy: if you don't hack more than 45 minutes at a time, the freebie LW + Edi's lisp-packages are noice 04:46:28 how come you reformat so often? 04:46:47 S11001001: how else do you upgrade sbcl? 04:46:59 oh right 04:47:02 man, it sucks 04:47:06 every couple months 04:47:26 I have to wipe my lisp tree and reclone all the repos 04:47:40 smoochy: with cygwin, perhas. 04:47:48 yes but i think a whole free package would be really relaxing. 04:47:57 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-95515a06acdb0a9f] has joined #lisp 04:48:05 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-95515a06acdb0a9f] has left #lisp 04:48:49 -!- coffeemug [n=coffeemu@ool-457219b3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:49:07 smoochy: when you start being productive, you will start to code for a certain version of a library and when you invest enough time in it you will maintain your own repo with old versions 04:49:18 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:50:13 or, like me, obsessively upgrade everything, keeping everything tied to the bleeding-edge 04:51:06 here's a thought - everytime an upstream maintainer changes something that causes you trouble, hit them with a stick 04:51:32 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:51:38 anyway, in fact i want to ask you about the licence things, i made this setup for myself but i've seen that its not so hard to turn it into a package to fit every XP, its even not hard to make a vista version, and it really has more than lispbox i think, so i think i can make an alternative package for newbies especilly, with several fast workspace shortcuts etc. 04:53:02 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:54:05 but it has so many packaces and i dont know for which licence types i need permission of licence holder for a free distro 04:54:19 omg forgive me for my english :D 04:54:36 smoochy: if you provide the source code with everything, you should be fine 04:54:38 smoochy: you don't put a license on it. all packages are under their respective licenses :-) 04:55:46 so i can distribute a free package in a setup without any permission if i put source in it right? 04:56:01 well then :D 04:56:09 yes 04:56:42 just take care that if you write additional code to glue it together, if it calls functions in any packages, there may be limitations on what license you can use for said additional code 04:57:03 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-93.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:57:34 but amalgamation does not imply the kind of restrictions that the GPL does for linked-together code. Were that the case, it would be impossible to distribute a GNU/Linux distribution containing both Apache and the Linux kernel. 04:59:48 hefner: i hit Mr Rhodes on the head with a stick once, it broke into two sticks. i hit him with them again and i had four. hefner, i kept repeating until i had no sticks left. 04:59:58 astounding 05:00:01 i didn't put so much code except some initialization files and some patches for packages that i get from internet again, i mean it is not really a much modified thing, just some configurations. 05:00:27 fusss: did you learn your lesson? 05:01:39 hefner: yes, only hit them N times, for small values of N. For limit of lg(n) as n approach N is zero. 05:02:20 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 05:02:29 the law of diminishing punishment of sbcl committers 05:02:33 its just hard enough to edit the packages to work in windows, i mean mostly emacs packages, and make install things are another headache in win :D in fact everything is a headache in win :) 05:03:12 fusss: the stake goes in the heart, not across the head 05:04:01 like the bumper sticker says: 3 nails + 1 cross = lethal spikey cross 05:04:06 smoochy: if your package includes emacs, you should probably provide emacs sources separately if not w/ the main pkg 05:04:21 also i added some packages for functionality, i added w3m, not for browsing, but it is really useful for hyperspec lookup 05:07:03 S11001001: hmm, i'll really try not to miss any sources though :) 05:07:21 but i need some comment for packages. 05:07:41 well, it's completely okay to not want to provide the C sources for emacs kernel in the same package. But you would in that case be required to at least provide them in a separate download. 05:08:38 S11001001: is hsbo your baby or are you paid to do it? 05:08:41 paid 05:09:10 I actually have a bunch of changes here 05:09:20 but I'm afraid to push them, because I can't connect to it from here anymore 05:09:20 it came along nice 05:09:24 which packages do you think are really 'must have' for an sbcl environment? 05:09:25 no idea why 05:09:35 i remember it used to be a little more spartan. now you have three states. 05:09:51 states? 05:10:04 honestly I can't see the site right now :) 05:10:15 you mean US states? 05:10:18 WI,IL, MN. 05:10:28 (btw I hate that confusion in writing code :) 05:10:40 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 05:10:59 i have two guys you want me to do a nightclub review site. msg me for their contacts. 05:11:03 if you want .. 05:11:19 i think of most of the ones in lispbuilder are nice to have 05:11:21 also, smoochy, please feel free to msg me privately about license issues; I'm happy to help, and I think we're cluttering up this channel 05:12:20 and I recommend everything listed in bzr branch http://scompall.nocandysw.com/lisp/lispdir/, file update.sh or acquire.sh 05:12:25 and why are the *.asp files on the page? :-P 05:12:59 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 05:15:28 S11001001: well i'm sorry for that :) ok then, i'll directly msg you when i have questions about licence issues :) thanks alot. anyway i think i must go now, thanks everyone. 05:15:56 not at all, it's just that licensing discussion is like a virus :) 05:16:07 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@209-161-227-184.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 05:16:11 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 05:16:15 fusss: you got me :) 05:17:47 S11001001: ehaha asp i was jokin about winXP, its a great system though:P 05:21:25 benny [n=benny@i577A1EF5.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:22:46 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-82.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 05:23:51 is kenny's theory y algebra written in cl? 05:25:34 yes 05:26:36 on allegro, with ltk and imagemagick for graphics, and cells for you know, stuff 05:26:38 seems very pretty but i can't say the same for the gui design :) 05:27:00 it is madness, but when you play with it a while, it becomes immersive 05:27:06 which is good for such an app 05:30:31 i'll try it sometime, just the gui could be better and more impressive, i'm a hobbyist in programming. i'm a designer in fact, so it was the first thing that caught my attention :D 05:30:33 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-227-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:36:39 anyway, i'm sleeping on my desk i think i must go make some coffee :) thanks everyone. 05:38:58 __death [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 05:43:31 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-151-240.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:30 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-82.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection 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has joined #lisp 07:10:22 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:11:32 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 07:12:54 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:13:16 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 07:13:37 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-2309.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 07:17:59 ASau` [n=user@host61-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:18:31 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:18:44 -!- ltriant [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 07:19:17 i think clojure is being embraced by the "wrong" people 07:19:26 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:20:08 one does wonder 07:20:16 yeah 07:20:56 imagine if steele and susman cooked up scheme, and it only appealed to people who didn't have a pascal for their minicomputer. it would have sucked. 07:21:36 clojure is being embraced by people .. who suck 07:21:45 hu? 07:21:56 am I right in my impression that clojure is drawing in a lot of fresh blood (that is, not CL or schemers)? 07:22:11 fadists, bloggers, ruby railers, twitterers, etc. 07:22:43 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:22:49 fusss: people generally suck. there are even common lisp users that are totally wrong all the time. 07:22:49 those guys have been burned by java, c# and php and they appreciate clojure. sure. but they're also bringing a limiting culture with them. 07:22:57 *hefner* prefers sadists and blaggards 07:23:18 H4ns: this is not the appropriate venue to talk behind Kenny's back, but i see your point. 07:23:26 :D 07:23:55 -!- jenkins is now known as cajetanus 07:24:16 Hickey better reach out to lispers, imo. clojure .. it's getting 37signalized :-( 07:24:30 oh noes, someone might learn about metaprogramming 07:24:35 can't have that 07:24:50 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 07:25:07 fusss: hickey should make the language more obscure so that it does not appeal to the general publc and ordinary people, right? 07:25:08 fusss fears the erosion of his cultural heritage 07:25:35 H4ns: not obscure, just point people to where stuff comes from. 07:25:57 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:26:02 fusss: i'm sure that he'll appreciate your advice a lot. 07:26:08 HOPL2-uncut is due for an update. No reason 2000 - 2010 can't be GOO, Clojure,Arc.. 07:26:17 hefner: if you do (accept 'number) in the clim listener, are things weird for you? (I get exceeding strange keyboard response) 07:26:40 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 07:27:31 Krystof: like keystrokes randomly disappearing? 07:27:33 H4ns: he is no prophet, the guy just wants to get _his_ work done. Hickey is a hacker, not an evangelist.but he needs to toughen up and maybe straighten out the fan boys. tell them where to find inspiration. 07:28:01 fusss: yeah, sure. he needs advice. go give hin some and don't bother #lisp. 07:28:03 fusss: you need to stop making excuses and embrace your inner, irrational hatred 07:28:07 -!- KingNato [n=KingNato@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:28:14 KingNato [n=KingNato@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:28:24 alright :-P 07:28:55 i just hate a good thing go to waste. 07:29:00 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-206.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:29:13 Good morning. 07:29:20 hey beach 07:29:20 Krystof: I bet this has something to do with the background thread evaluation. It causes all sorts of fun. 07:29:51 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:30:23 hefner: I have noticed that one sometimes has to click on a visible number several times before it is accepted. 07:30:43 Krystof: yeah, that's it. If you (setf clim-listener::*use-background-eval* nil), it works fine. 07:30:47 trvlr [n=trvlr@117.193.193.27] has joined #lisp 07:30:55 arghl 07:31:01 I guess both threads are racing to empty the event queue. 07:31:17 well, I suppose I can be glad that it's not anything to do with my keyboard focus code 07:31:22 ?: what is the function to convert from string to number ex: "123.234" 07:31:35 clhs read-from-string 07:31:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_fro.htm 07:31:42 minion: parse-number 07:31:44 parse-number: parse-number is a Library of functions which accept an arbitrary string and attempt to parse it into one of the standard Common Lisp number types, if possible, or else it signals an error of type invalid-number. http://www.cliki.net/parse-number 07:32:05 thanks 07:32:43 beach: that sounds like the same sort of thing. 07:32:57 hefner: I am guessing that too. 07:33:11 trvlr: you should only pass strings to read-from-string that you consider safe. you would not want to use that for strings that you have received, e.g., through a network connection. 07:33:49 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:33:50 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:49 -!- bdowning_ is now known as bdowning 07:36:29 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:36:45 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:57 H4ns: so i better go for parse-number! 07:37:46 trvlr: right. or check the string for a number format before using read-from-string 07:39:31 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:49 Isn't that tantamount to parsing? 07:40:38 tcr: right. i was not suggesting to reimplement parse-number. rather, i was suggesting that a simple check for allowed characters can be sufficient in many cases if importing a new library is undesireable. 07:41:47 Well, you could just incorporate parse-number.lisp into your project, and be done with it :) 07:42:12 tcr: the "just" is something that has different meanings to people with different experience levels. 07:43:33 H4ns: Will you go to ELS? 07:43:55 tcr: i have not really given it a thought. it is in may, right? 07:44:28 Yes, it is. In Milan. 07:44:35 uh, i see it in my calendar. can't come, conflict with other event. 07:44:56 eclm will be my next lisp related conference. 07:45:10 Right, I'll come there too 07:46:20 LostMonarch [n=roby@82.49.211.60] has joined #lisp 07:47:10 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-86-176.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609]"] 07:49:35 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["upgrade emacs"] 07:50:45 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 07:51:16 hefner: right, the *use-background-eval* toggle fixes the symptoms here too 07:52:02 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:55:22 _death: what did you say your cpu was? 07:55:37 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 07:56:02 *hefner* recalls his old idea of implementing an abort key that be handled from distribute-event and interrupt the listener thread with a continuable error 07:56:28 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:56:46 doesn't solve the problem of the window not painting itself while the form evals, though. 07:57:09 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 07:57:38 -!- cajetanus [n=jenkins@ixa150.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has left #lisp 08:01:17 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-130-53-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:01:27 -!- _death [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:02:17 _death [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 08:03:57 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:04:07 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:21 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:06:37 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 08:08:12 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:09:05 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 08:10:16 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:10:50 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 08:10:54 sundar [i=IceChat7@59.96.139.232] has joined #lisp 08:11:11 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 08:11:48 Hi.. Are things like apropos or describe available from some bot here? 08:13:16 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:13:29 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:45 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 08:13:49 -!- deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:14:14 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.199.215] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:14:34 frank_s__ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has joined #lisp 08:14:43 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:15:04 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:15:12 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 08:15:58 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:16:29 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 08:18:34 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:20:59 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:21:28 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 08:22:38 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:23:06 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 08:23:36 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:23:39 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6C564.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:07 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 08:25:41 -!- Noll_Noll [n=28@c-ee70e253.4542024--62697410.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 08:25:50 frank_s [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has joined #lisp 08:27:31 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:28:32 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:28:37 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:29:00 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 08:29:29 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:30:22 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 08:30:50 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:30:53 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 08:31:24 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 08:31:35 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:32:21 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:33:29 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 08:33:44 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.199.215] has joined #lisp 08:33:49 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:04 -!- frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:34:11 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:35:18 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 08:36:32 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:38:53 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 08:46:04 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 08:47:08 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:47:30 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 08:48:06 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:49:22 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 08:49:25 elias` [n=me@cs78208074.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:50:23 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:50:41 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:50:55 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 08:51:05 sundar: you have specbot, where you can get a URL to a page in the Common Lisp HyperSpec. You use it by starting the line with `clhs' or some other spec, like `clim'. 08:51:26 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:51:50 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 08:51:50 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 08:51:55 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:52:28 -!- frank_s__ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:52:43 -!- Krystof has set mode -b *!*n=WP-Gast@*.dclient.hispeed.ch 08:53:04 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has joined #lisp 08:53:07 -!- Krystof has set mode -b *!*@unaffiliated/moose 08:53:13 -!- Krystof has set mode -b *!*@unaffiliated/stoned 08:53:30 -!- Krystof has set mode -b *!*n=omally@*.dhcp.mrqt.mi.charter.com 08:53:32 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.199.215] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:53:32 -!- Krystof has set mode -b *!*n=comp@*.hsd1.nj.comcast.net 08:53:42 fax-machine: fix your client 08:53:55 -!- Krystof has set mode +b *!*n=user@88.238.33.90 08:54:07 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 08:54:07 prip [n=_prip@host254-129-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:54:07 Ginei_Mo1ioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.210.9] has joined #lisp 08:54:07 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable085.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 08:54:07 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 08:54:07 ceineke_ [n=chris@CPE001c109fb260-CM001ac319195a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 08:54:07 -!- irc.freenode.net has set mode +b *!*n=WP-Gast@*.dclient.hispeed.ch 08:54:07 -!- irc.freenode.net has set mode +b *!*n=comp@*.hsd1.nj.comcast.net 08:54:07 -!- irc.freenode.net has set mode +b *!*n=omally@*.dhcp.mrqt.mi.charter.com 08:54:07 -!- irc.freenode.net has set mode +b *!*@unaffiliated/moose 08:54:07 -!- irc.freenode.net has set mode +b *!*@unaffiliated/stoned 08:54:35 -!- frank_s [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has quit [Killed by ballard.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 08:54:38 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@apn-89-223-192-218.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:54:38 frank_s [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has joined #lisp 08:54:38 deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:54:38 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 08:54:38 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:54:38 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@87.249.9.98] has joined #lisp 08:54:38 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 08:54:38 krappie [n=brain@mx.skitzo.org] has joined #lisp 08:54:39 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:54:47 -!- prip is now known as Guest69568 08:54:47 -!- Ginei_Mo1ioka is now known as Guest12316 08:54:47 -!- lemoinem is now known as Guest52142 08:54:50 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:55:38 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:58:27 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 08:58:40 What would be the idiom for running an external program (with sb-ext:run-program) with some data produced in a loop, and have the process exit when the last piece of data has been produced, i.e. sending en EOF to the standard input of the process? 08:58:42 -!- avdi1 [n=avdi@72.25.153.138] has left #lisp 09:00:18 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 09:02:15 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 09:02:24 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:02:52 beach: ISTR you pass :input :stream to run-program and get the input stream from the process object you get back 09:02:58 then you write into that stream, and close it when you're done 09:03:21 antifuchs: OK, that was one of the possibilities that occurred to me. Thanks. 09:03:58 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:04:01 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@apn-89-223-192-218.vodafone.hu] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:04:21 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:02 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:05:31 yeah 09:06:28 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:06:32 and don't forget to process-wait and get the exit code, or you'll have zombie procs hanging aroud 09:08:34 antifuchs: Ah, I didn't know that. Thanks! 09:08:54 zombies aren't so bad 09:09:01 -!- Krystof has set mode -o Krystof 09:09:28 If I pass :input :stream, I suppose the stream is has an element type of (unsigned-byte 8), right? If I want something else, I suppose I need to create the stream first. 09:10:06 the reason I discovered that stupid accept behaviour in the listener was because I wanted to be able to say '(present (* 8 (/ (accept 'number :prompt "Enter a number to convert") 0.5)))' yesterday 09:10:12 I feel I have somewhat missed the opportunity 09:11:08 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 09:12:45 still, at least I don't have to delve into keyboard focus code again 09:13:21 beach: hm, I believe it's a character or bivalent stream 09:14:08 antifuchs: I see. I need to understand how to create two-way streams or something like that. 09:14:23 two-way? what for? (: 09:15:13 antifuchs: Maybe that's not what I need. I need to create a stream that I can pass to run-program, that the process will read from, and my loop should write to that stream. 09:15:51 heh. you get an output stream from process-input 09:16:05 that is, a CL output stream for the process's input stream. 09:16:42 antifuchs: yes, but I need to pass that stream to run-program, because I want a stream that has element type (unsigned-byte 16) 09:16:51 ah, hmmm. 09:18:11 you might actually end up having to make your own stream class for that... 09:18:27 So I need to figure out how to create such a stream and pass it to run-program. 09:18:54 something like with-output-to-vector, I guess 09:19:23 but with-output-to-program, with a specifiable element type 09:19:51 caveat: I am not sure how cl stream buffering interacts with :input streams to run-program 09:20:58 are you saying that with-output-to-program is something that exists? 09:21:06 for example, you could pass any kind of cl stream to it, but I doubt that in most cases it would do what it says in the clhs 09:21:16 nope, you'd probably have to write this yourself /-: 09:21:32 or I could just give up and use an intermediate file. 09:21:44 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 09:22:08 ... which is probably what I am going to do. 09:23:15 dwave_ [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 09:24:06 #+clisp (EXT:MAKE-PIPE-OUTPUT-STREAM command &KEY :ELEMENT-TYPE :EXTERNAL-FORMAT :BUFFERED) returns an output STREAM that will pass its output as input to the execution of the given operating system command. 09:24:19 Hi... How do I trace through the steps of a program? I'm using Lisp in a box IDE for Windows (which is Emacs+Slime+clisp). 09:24:54 sundar: (STEP (PROGRAM)) 09:26:29 pjb pasted "useful binding for steping with clisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78545 09:26:29 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.199.215] has joined #lisp 09:27:04 Well with slime these bindings would have to be modified. Perhaps there are already binding for stepping in slime. Check the manual. 09:30:49 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:33:13 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:37:32 -!- PissedNumlock [i=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:37:36 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:37:46 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:38:30 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 09:39:02 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:46:58 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-2309.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:49:26 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 09:51:59 snippyhollow [n=snippyho@tkbn103153.catv.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:52:17 -!- Guest69568 is now known as prip 09:52:27 -!- smoochy [n=user@88.238.33.90] has quit [Success] 09:53:27 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:53:30 sundar pasted "Stepping output" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78546 09:54:07 sundar: with clisp, you get better debugging on code that is NOT compiled. 09:54:30 sundar: redefine the functions you want to debug without compiling them, and try again. 09:54:40 Hun [n=Hun@p4FCF5E8D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:54:41 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 09:55:36 (Use C-x C-e not C-c C-c) 09:56:07 matimago: I'm using C-c C-k now. 09:56:11 Or C-c C-l, not C-c C-k 09:56:24 matimago: Ok, I will try that. Thanks... 09:58:07 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 09:59:36 kij [n=kij@79.138.235.19.bredband.3.dk] has joined #lisp 10:00:19 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:00:58 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:28 -!- martinip23 is now known as Martinp23 10:05:53 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A1C6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:06:01 ah, new ccl 10:06:12 with packages for windows, and everything :) 10:07:22 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 10:07:58 oh, and apparently it has the java bridge; nice :) 10:08:21 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:10:11 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:11:11 Numlock [i=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 10:12:51 -!- Numlock is now known as PissedNumlock 10:13:04 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:14:06 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:16:29 mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:22:10 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:22:58 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:31:27 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:34:16 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx11825.fairfva.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:53 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:38:43 -!- snippyhollow [n=snippyho@tkbn103153.catv.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:39:12 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 10:40:45 friedmeat [n=fruitbag@89.242.154.53] has joined #lisp 10:40:59 Guys, what kind of algorithms would one employ in resampling a bitmap image? 10:41:12 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:41:52 <_3b> an actual bitmap, or a grayscale/color image? 10:42:08 A colour image 10:42:25 Suppose I wanted to upsample an 8-bpp image to a true 24-bpp image. 10:42:57 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:43:31 *_3b* would probably just leave it as-is rather than make up data 10:43:49 <_3b> if it was dithered, you could smooth/blur it a bit or something 10:44:13 Just in general, _3b... what type of algorithms are employed in that instance? 10:44:45 I suspect that there's very little you can usefully do there 10:44:48 going the other way, sure 10:45:08 -!- trvlr [n=trvlr@117.193.193.27] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 10:45:35 So, what's involved with the reverse? 10:46:23 Hi... Why does 'round' function round 3/2 to 2 (correctly) but 1/2 to 0 (while it must have been 1)? 10:47:01 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:17 round to nearest even? 10:47:22 (just guessing) 10:47:23 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-6fa6fd67e17ad9c0] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:47:36 <_3b> yeah, looks like it is round to even 10:47:46 -!- friedmeat [n=fruitbag@89.242.154.53] has quit [Client Quit] 10:47:55 Oops.. Seems so... Seriously did not expect that! 10:48:07 I thought it would be round to nearest integer as in math. 10:48:19 <_3b> depends on which 'math' :) 10:48:23 it is to nearest integer 10:48:36 Usually in math .5 is rounded up.. 10:48:50 Ok, atleast in the 'math' I have come through. :) 10:48:58 "In the case of a tie (the argument or quotient is exactly halfway between two integers), it rounds to the even integer." 10:50:24 Thanks... 10:56:38 can someone explain the reasoning behind that? 10:57:55 i mean, is that a basic math rule that i've somehow missed? 10:59:09 that's ieee floating point behavior. The idea is to neither bias up or down when you get a lot of things that fall on .5 11:00:05 Hun` [n=Hun@p4FCF7D3D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rounding#Round-to-even_method has a little rationale 11:00:43 it's because it approximately rounds up or down evenly distributed. with the other behaviors you get a bias into the system 11:00:44 thanks! i hope i'll remember that when it matters 11:00:58 it mainly is when doing numerics or implementing a fpu 11:02:59 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 11:11:00 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:12:13 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 11:14:35 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 11:19:45 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p4FCF5E8D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:20:52 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:23:01 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-235.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:24:32 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 11:25:27 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:26:26 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:29:34 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 11:29:58 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 11:32:07 -!- Ragnaroek [i=8f5df9da@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-38cd483e196522b0] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 11:34:52 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:36:31 ehu` [n=chatzill@ip5657b052.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 11:37:00 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:42:16 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-69-179.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:42:59 sundar_ [i=IceChat7@59.92.126.98] has joined #lisp 11:43:51 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 11:45:23 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 11:45:27 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:48:12 -!- Hun` [n=Hun@p4FCF7D3D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:48:23 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-115-207.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:48:34 -!- sundar [i=IceChat7@59.96.139.232] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:51:52 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:55:40 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:21 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:59:26 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:59:33 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-99-185.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:59:47 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 12:00:25 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 12:02:42 adityo_ [n=adityo@59.183.27.135] has joined #lisp 12:05:32 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-69-179.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:06:07 frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has joined #lisp 12:06:41 beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-59-241.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:07:42 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279776576.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 12:08:29 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:08:55 Hun [n=Hun@p4FCF5CED.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:37 -!- gzip4_ [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:11:00 md1 [n=user@chello085216235227.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 12:14:02 -!- frank_s [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:14:59 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:16:06 -!- adityo [n=adityo@59.183.42.115] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:16:49 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p4FD2A9D5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:18:57 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 12:22:49 -!- beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-115-207.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:29:58 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:30:36 LiamH [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:34:08 ... and the winner is: LispWorks 12:34:24 lichtblau: what did it win? 12:35:00 It wins the "can run CommonQt" crown. 12:35:27 ah 12:35:32 so can other things, though :) 12:35:39 (sbcl and ccl, at least) 12:35:51 <_3b> can clbuild build a new sbcl using sbcl directly from an unpacked sbcl binary release? 12:36:11 <_3b> or do i need to actually install it 12:36:12 though I suppose with lispworks, non-huge distributables are possible! 12:36:19 (though still slightly huge; qt is quite big) 12:37:05 _3b: SBCL=/path/to/run-sbcl.sh, I assume. 12:37:45 <_3b> pkhuong: clbuild seems OK with that, but the sbcl build tries to run it directly 12:38:04 -!- frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:38:15 rsynnott: sorry, I probably wasn't clear. I'm on Windows. 12:39:18 ah, I see! 12:39:26 so you have the dll built successfully, then? 12:39:40 *_3b* will just build it by hand and install the new version 12:39:55 yes, that worked out fine using the Qyoto instructions. 12:39:56 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:40:08 frank_s [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has joined #lisp 12:40:44 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p4FCF5CED.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:40:54 ah, cool 12:41:03 tried it in anything other than lispworks? 12:41:06 ccl might work 12:41:31 yes. I tried SBCL, CCL, CLISP, Allegro's normal .exe, Allegro's GUI-less console application build.exe. 12:42:32 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:07 CCL and CLISP fail immediately with FFI issues. SBCL runs into GC assertions. alisp.exe is a big fail. build.exe has less issues, but still hangs. 12:44:11 lichtblau: does commonqt set a finalizer for each Qt object ? 12:44:39 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:44:57 fe[nl]ix: yes 12:45:34 that figures :) 12:47:02 -!- beach``` is now known as beach 12:47:32 Good afternoon. 12:47:48 hi beach 12:47:55 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Success] 12:47:58 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:48:37 fe[nl]ix: all smoke-based bindings use that approach (but details differ wildly, depending on how the program can hook into the GC (for QtRuby) or can use Java-style finalization (Qyoto), etc.) 12:49:08 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 12:49:21 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-206.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 12:50:35 lichtblau: any possibility of checking that on Corman? :) 12:51:07 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:53:33 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-206.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:54:40 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 12:54:43 more elf-slapping 12:55:05 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:55:11 more ELFSLAPPING 12:57:31 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:00:07 -!- mathrick is now known as shin_lac 13:00:16 frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has joined #lisp 13:00:26 -!- shin_lac is now known as mathrick 13:02:09 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:12 -!- ceineke_ [n=chris@CPE001c109fb260-CM001ac319195a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:02:19 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:02:25 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:34 mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-182-191-195.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:57 p_l: not a platform I care about, but I'll upload binaries at some point, then you can try yourself 13:09:56 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p4FD2A9D5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:10:08 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p4FD2A9D5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:13:19 -!- frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:13:47 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:14:37 csr21@omega:~/sbcl-git/obj (repeatable-build)$ for file in `find from-clisp-xc -name '*.lisp-obj'`; do cmp ${file} from-sbcl${file#from-clisp}; done && echo 'Hooray!' 13:14:37 Hooray! 13:14:37 csr21@omega:~/sbcl-git/obj (repeatable-build)$ cmp ../output/cold-clisp-sbcl.core ../output/cold-sbcl-sbcl.core 13:14:37 ../output/cold-clisp-sbcl.core ../output/cold-sbcl-sbcl.core differ: byte 141, line 1 13:14:41 sucks to be me 13:15:18 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:15:57 and it's not the MAPHASHes in genesis? 13:16:55 (nor the build id?) 13:18:13 HET3 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:18:36 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 13:18:37 it's not the build id 13:18:41 tsuru` [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:48 willb [n=wibenton@wireless297.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 13:18:49 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx11825.fairfva.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:19:05 I can see how the maphashes can cause slight differences in the core, but that difference is actually a difference in dynamic space size 13:19:06 byte 141 again? 13:19:21 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless297.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 13:19:35 willb [n=wibenton@wireless297.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 13:21:47 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 13:22:23 plutonas [n=plutonas@nomad51069.netlogon.lu.se] has joined #lisp 13:23:34 -!- eraldo [n=eraldo@cpe90-146-183-229.liwest.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:25:45 frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has joined #lisp 13:26:07 -!- frank_s [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has quit [Success] 13:26:17 -!- LiamH [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:30:09 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p4FD2A9D5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:30:44 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:32:10 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p4FD2A9D5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:33:12 friedmeat [n=fruitbag@89.242.154.53] has joined #lisp 13:33:32 -!- friedmeat [n=fruitbag@89.242.154.53] has left #lisp 13:35:32 -!- mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-182-191-195.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 13:37:44 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:44:26 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-120-241.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:48:39 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 13:48:45 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Success] 13:50:09 -!- Guest52142 is now known as lemoinem 13:50:25 Lou_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:50:36 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:50:39 -!- lemoinem is now known as Guest73429 13:51:43 -!- Guest73429 is now known as lemoinem 13:52:54 legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-32-172.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:55:02 cirquitz [n=cirquitz@203.199.114.33] has joined #lisp 13:55:35 plan9 [n=stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has joined #lisp 13:55:38 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-36-99.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:56:13 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 13:58:57 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:00:55 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-25-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:02:26 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p4FD2A9D5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:03:39 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 14:04:23 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:07:26 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:08:58 Hey guys. I've been looking through the CLHS and could't find any way to nest a function call. I'm looking for something along the lines of (nest 4 function args) or some related trick. 14:09:05 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 14:09:13 what do you mean by nesting? 14:09:21 Phaze: (a (b (c (d x)))) 14:10:34 Phaze: I have no idea what (nest 4 function args) would be expected to do. 14:10:50 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 14:11:51 Phaze: do you mean (nest 4 function args) would be interpreted as (function (function (function (function args)))) ? 14:11:57 (function (function (function (function args)))) .. actually, i don't need the args parameter, i just thought i'd add it here. 14:12:04 kuwabara, exactly. 14:13:40 Phaze: write it yourself. That sort of operation is rarely useful in idiomatic CL. 14:13:46 -!- frank_s_ is now known as frank_s 14:13:50 Hunh, interesting. Yeah, I haven't had need for that myself. Does it exist in another language you're familiar with? 14:14:02 (loop for x = args then (fun args) repeat n finally (return x)) 14:14:26 Mathematica is the only place i've seen it. 14:14:30 sellout: haskell's iterate. 14:15:09 I thought it was a common function in functional languages. 14:15:35 Phaze: Lisp is not particularly a functional language, and as I wrote above it is easy to write such a function. 14:16:34 pkhuong: ah, yeah, but iterate is a little different. Seems more useful in that it creates a sequence from a pattern. 14:16:34 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has left #lisp 14:17:09 sellout: I've seen a couple iterate . !! 14:17:19 beach, I'm well awere of that posibility ;) I just thought I'd check before reinventing the wheel. I'll probably end up taking a different approach all together, as is usually the case. 14:18:32 In my exciting new "customizeable numbers" branch, you could do (4 function args) 14:18:44 ... not really 14:19:08 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:19:14 Krystof, make up your mind :b 14:20:10 ((random 14) #'not t) 14:20:37 Now that's useful! 14:25:58 -!- decaf [n=mkose@81.215.202.193] has quit ["leaving"] 14:26:35 milanj [n=milan@93.86.213.44] has joined #lisp 14:28:00 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student166-185.hampshire.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:28:41 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:29:27 c|mell [n=cmell@p3211-ipbf2908marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:29:28 crod [n=cmell@p3211-ipbf2908marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:35:37 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:38:43 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:40:11 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:41:32 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-161-244.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:41:37 good afternoon 14:42:24 hi mvilleneuve 14:42:53 is there a way sort of mirror a class with its slots but without its metaclass? inheritance doesn't work in this case. Basically I want to skip retyping all the slot definitions. 14:43:26 Krystof: extensible funcall would probably affect performance even less than an extensible numeric tower ;) 14:45:31 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 14:46:10 Here is someting that I wrote several times: if it's a leaf, do the processing, otherwise call recursively on both the car and cdr. Is there an idiom for such visiting of a tree in CL ? 14:46:50 some kind of maptree would be great 14:47:16 no. iirc the only thing that'll recursively visit a tree and call a user-defined function on it is subst-if 14:48:06 kuwabara, I think mathematica has that aswell. Mapcar, but with an optional "depth" argument, for the depth of the trees. 14:48:36 thanks jsnell, Phaze 14:51:39 kuwabara: there might be a (generic) fold in one of the purely functional container libraries. 14:51:54 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p4FD2A9D5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:53:02 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:53:18 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 14:53:32 -!- adityo_ [n=adityo@59.183.27.135] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:58:33 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 14:58:49 rullie_ [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151245.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:59:17 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:59:34 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.242.136] has joined #lisp 15:01:39 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-161-244.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:03:05 kuwabara: if the leaves are not lists and if I'm understanding the problem correctly CLOS can help by specializing a generic function on list and then on the leaf type... 15:03:43 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 15:04:19 ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@88-108-111-126.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 15:04:49 Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 15:05:33 matley- [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 15:05:44 _8david [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:06:17 kuwabara: There's also an issue of subtle differences in how the tree is encoded affect how it should be traversed. 15:06:39 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 15:06:48 nullwork [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:00 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:07:00 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:07:00 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-161-244.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 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irc.freenode.net] 15:07:00 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-245-43.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:07:00 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:07:10 For example, can a leaf by NIL? 15:07:21 esden [n=esdentem@repl.esden.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:08 random thought: contextl can be very useful for dynamically customizing an algorithm, like a tree walker. 15:08:16 layered methods, that is 15:08:23 PissedNumlock [i=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 15:08:34 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 15:08:40 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-181-199.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:08:49 Tordek [n=tordek@host203.190-137-195.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:08:50 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-245-43.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:54 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 15:09:05 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-124-177.red.bezeqint.net] 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[n=cmm@bzq-79-179-124-177.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Success] 15:20:35 -!- cirquitz [n=cirquitz@203.199.114.33] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:21:28 -!- kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.fr] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:22:09 -!- esden [n=esdentem@repl.esden.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:22:33 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p4FD2A9D5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:22:58 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 15:32:21 -!- ASau` [n=user@host61-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["OFF!"] 15:33:02 kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.fr] has joined #lisp 15:34:56 -!- Draggor is now known as ChopperDave 15:35:07 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:36:41 emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:36:47 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 15:38:15 I am trying to understand closures. Could someone please tell me if this statement is correct: "A closure happens when a function is nested inside a lexical scope/binding form." 15:39:19 <_3b> the function also needs to use bindings form the enclosing scope 15:39:54 _3b: right, thanks 15:40:16 are there other circumstances in which a closure is created? 15:40:23 ... when a function is executed in the lexical env captured at the time of creation. 15:41:02 <_3b> kuwabara: it is the capturing of the env that is important, not the execution 15:41:11 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:42:00 <_3b> emacsphan: that seems general enough that it would be hard to come up with any other cases 15:42:27 <_3b> you need a function, and you need a binding, and if the function isn't inside the binding, it can't close over it 15:42:44 _3b: got it, thanks very much 15:43:12 -!- mvillene1ve is now known as mvilleneuve 15:43:30 Lisp is the first language that I have encountered with closures, so it was quite confusing to me at first but now I think I understand it 15:44:17 <_3b> surely you've at least seen javascript before? :) 15:44:26 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.199.215] has joined #lisp 15:44:26 nope 15:44:31 perl ? 15:44:36 nope 15:45:01 years ago I used to program in C, C++, assembly, Basic... 15:45:10 ...yes, BASIC 15:45:14 hehe 15:45:35 started programming when I was in elementary school in Basic 15:46:13 BASIC in the right env is a great language 15:46:31 VAX BASIC for instance! 15:46:53 wentbackward: is it? I am only familiar with a few dialects of Basic native to DOS 15:47:14 my mind was blown when I started to learn C, I can tell you that much 15:47:31 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:34 now I am having a similar experience with CL ;) 15:47:51 Oh yes, mine too. I learned unix + c together on a Hoskins course! 15:48:14 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:31 err, ooh, oh, oh, I can't help myself ... Lisp is just the best! 15:49:08 it's probably been about... well, over 10 years since I've done any serious programming, now I am learning CL 15:49:27 all of my previous programming knowledge is slowly coming back to me 15:49:39 most of it will be irrelevant. 15:49:43 lisp has different margins. 15:50:03 Fade: could you please elaborate? what an interesting statement 15:50:06 embrace beginner's mind! 15:50:07 That may work in your favour. I found with CL (even after years) I had ingrained habits that are hard to shake 15:50:43 wentbackward: what sort of habits? 15:51:27 Writing blah-aux functions instead of using optional args is one I've just discovered in my code today. 15:51:32 I think it might take me a long time to learn to use macros to their full potential 15:51:46 well, if your points of context are basic and C, you're going to have experience with a mostly iterative style of programming. lisp pretty much embodies recursion and first class functions. 15:52:13 <_3b> wentbackward: if the optional args are internal use only, an flet might be better 15:52:22 it seems to respond best to the style of functional programming. elimination of side effects, etc. 15:52:32 as much as reasonable at any rate. 15:52:40 ... and to add to Fade's comment also supports iterative/imperitive programming so you can bring all your bad habits along 15:52:41 it isn't like we need monads to do I/O 15:53:23 Fade: is C not a functional programming language? 15:53:31 C is not 15:53:46 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 15:53:47 -!- md1 [n=user@chello085216235227.chello.sk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:53:49 because a language has functions, does not make it a functional programming language. 15:53:49 hmmm I did not know that 15:54:11 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_programming 15:54:20 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.230.20] has quit ["Are taglines the footnotes of Reality?"] 15:54:29 _3b: yes, in fact I've removed them and used labels. It's all obvious when I look back, head down hacking, things come out in a certain way 15:54:34 I have an accent! 15:56:49 so C is an imperative programming language 15:56:58 it is 15:57:13 and you can write lisp like that, it's just not good lisp. 15:57:53 Fade: does good Lisp involve a lot of abstraction through functions? 15:57:58 there is nothing wrong with imperative (common) lisp. common lisp is a multiparadigm language that does not impose a particular style on you. 15:58:31 emacsphan: you can also use objects and classes if you like. or write spaghetti if that is what you prefer. 15:58:36 in soviet russia, you impose style. 15:58:54 emacsphan: good Lisp style involves a lot of abstractions. 15:58:55 for some things an imperative approach is obviously correct, but I've found that writing lisp in an imperative style is sort of like trying to swim against the tide. 15:58:57 or ravioli code. 15:59:39 in the stuff i do, imperative is often the best way i come up with 15:59:39 emacsphan: including functional abstractions, but not only. We also have classical data abstraction, but also syntactic abstraction and metalinguistic abstraction. 16:00:09 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:00:20 speaking in a broad general sense. 16:00:21 emacsphan: since you've already done programming, you might be interested to study sicp 16:00:28 minion: tell emacsphan about sicp 16:00:28 emacsphan: look at sicp: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available gratis from (HTML), (texinfo) and (XHTML, PDF). Accompanying video lectures are available gratis at 16:00:34 matimago: from what I know, I would guess that the syntactic abstraction you refer to is in the macros? 16:00:35 not every problem is a robertson screw. 16:00:41 emacsphan: correct. 16:01:14 Fade: what will we say when we'll have nanobots ablet to solve any (physical) problem? 16:01:19 matimago: could you please give me an example of classical data abstraction 16:01:34 emacsphan: structs? :) 16:01:43 we'll say that not every problem is a funcall ;) 16:01:44 I love the opening comments by Perlis in sicp. 16:01:45 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-59-241.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:01:51 emacsphan: it's just abstract data types. 16:02:00 emacsphan: classes are a good example. 16:02:55 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483A716.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:55 from wikipedia: "Worldwide, C is the first or second most popular language in terms of number of developer positions or publicly available code." Anyone know what language is in first or second place along with C? 16:03:16 java, probably. 16:03:23 Cobol? 16:03:27 :-) 16:03:30 hah 16:03:54 matimago: thanks for pointing out that book, I actually downloaded it the other day but haven't gotten around to reading it yet, I am presently reading Practical CL 16:04:01 F# 16:04:01 <_3b> you could click the little link to see where they got the info 16:04:06 somebody, somewhere has probably developed a CL hosted cobol system. 16:04:20 I though that it might be C++ 16:04:23 <_3b> (and it does appear to be java) 16:04:38 emacsphan: good. Once done with PCL, go ahead with sicp, it'll open your programmer mind, and give you good overlook on "lisp programming style". 16:04:42 <_3b> c++ and php compete for 3rd 16:05:19 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 16:05:38 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 16:05:42 how about the book "On Lisp"? 16:05:54 advanced material covering macros. 16:06:33 the author is somewhat controversial because of his attitude toward CLOS, but it's still the best treatment of the subject of macros I've found. 16:06:42 <_3b> both sources claim lisp and actionscript are comprable... wonder if that is accurate 16:06:51 Fade: thanks 16:07:29 malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:07:37 PhazeDK [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:07:55 forigve me for asking, but why is CL not more popular? are there any reasons apparent? 16:08:17 -!- Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:08:32 historical baggage, i guess. 16:08:32 the reason I am learning CL is because it's proponents advocate it so highly 16:08:45 emacsphan: I think CL is extremely popular. 16:08:51 <_3b> partially it if because it isn't popular 16:08:55 perhaps not so widely used. 16:09:16 in the eighties, lisp required special hardware to be competitive performance wise with low level languages like C. 16:09:46 so there was a money penalty. 16:10:00 does anyone know how I can use a let binding to ensure everything in the let runs deterministically from run to run (ie all calls to random give the same value)? I tried binding a saved value of *random-state* to *random-state* but the contents of the let still run non-deterministically, and from what I can tell by printing *random-state* at the start and end of the let, it's state is not actually changing during the let 16:10:10 dwave [n=ask@084202073031.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 16:10:18 Fade: is Lisp considered a high level language? 16:10:28 it is. 16:10:38 using sbcl if that makes any difference, I wonder whether this could be a package issue and I need to refer to the right location of *random-state* 16:10:44 malcolm_reynolds: you have to copy the state. It has the same identity, but the point of random-state is that it's stateful! 16:10:44 malcolm_reynolds: what are the symptoms of the nondeterminism? There are many other potential causes from simply generating random numbers 16:10:53 lisp could be considered The high level language, considering its focus on abstraction. 16:11:06 PSOAddict [n=PSOAddic@cblmdm72-240-100-173.buckeyecom.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:11 join #scheme 16:11:27 Fade: I see. But that does not imply that Lisp is incapable of doing low-level operations, right? 16:11:37 that is not right 16:11:43 Krystof: symptoms are that I'm generating random data structures and deriving matrices from them, and the matrices are all different sizes / contents 16:12:07 lisp is a system language as well. several operating systems have been written in it. 16:12:08 so you're calling RANDOM yourself, and yet *random-state*'s printable representation is not changing? 16:12:11 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 16:12:23 yes. let me put together a paste to clarify this. 16:12:25 In any case, you should follow pkhuong's suggestion first 16:12:59 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:13:03 Fade: sorry, I am confused; if you can write an OS in Lisp that means you CAN do low-level things with Lisp, right? 16:13:13 right 16:13:14 -!- dwave_ [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Success] 16:13:30 Fade: ok, what OS has been coded in Lisp? 16:13:35 genera 16:13:49 and the os that ran the first MIT lisp machine 16:13:54 most recently, movitz 16:14:14 which is a lisp that lives on the metal 16:14:15 movitz, SBCL (not an OS, but it has run in ring 0). 16:14:25 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-161-244.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["leaving"] 16:15:00 emacsphan: there's some interesting stuff at tunes.org! 16:15:33 Fade: "lisp that lives on the metal" that's cool! 16:15:41 it is cool. 16:16:11 You can work with CFFI to get at low level libraries (and an imperative prog style is oft needed). 16:16:38 although many popular libraries now have more lispy abstractions above them. 16:17:08 http://paste.lisp.org/display/78556 is pretty much what I'm doing. I don't entirely understand your suggestion pkhuong, could you clarify with a paste? my copy of cltl seems to imply that this is how you saved / restore random state... 16:17:41 There's no need for CFFI for low level code. I often find it simpler to use SBCL than C or asm for that. 16:17:58 aye 16:18:24 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-59-241.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:18:28 wentbackward: for some reason, I can't pull up tunes.org; will try later 16:18:36 when I run something like that, the two format statements print out exactly the same random state 16:18:36 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:59 malcolm_reynolds: I highly doubt that. 16:20:04 that's what it looks like on my end. is it possible that since I'm in a custom defined package, the *random-state* is becoming a local variable whereas random can still see the global state? 16:21:20 -!- _puf_DT-KK [n=kimkhanh@115.74.118.91] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:21:21 (I'd suggest you get better glasses or let a program, e.g. diff, look for differences) anyway, the point of *random-state* is that it holds the state of the PRNG; that state is modified every time you use RANDOM. You want to copy the initial state with MAKE-RANDOM-STATE and save it somewhere else. 16:23:31 my apologies, you're right. lots of the numbers at the end don't change, but there are differences in the overall state 16:24:31 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 16:24:58 from the Wikipedia article on Genera: "The source code is more than a million lines of Lisp and available for the user to be inspected and changed. The source is relatively compact, compared to the provided functionality, due to extensive reuse." ...very interesting 16:25:16 but in that case why is the code in the middle not running deterministically? 16:25:39 <_3b> malcolm_reynolds: you change the saved state 16:26:22 oh, right. I see. so the let binding is just making a reference to that state object? 16:26:32 <_3b> try (let ((*random-state* (make-random-state ...))) ...) 16:27:08 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.68.107] has joined #lisp 16:27:36 trebor_dki pasted "timing surprise / not-understanding ... enlightment?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78557 16:27:42 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:27:52 -!- pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:28:27 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 16:28:43 okay, I get you. and I can put whatever the repl spits out for *random-state* in the (make-random-state ..) call to get something that will run the same every time? 16:29:09 jonathon [n=user@66.43.153.130] has joined #lisp 16:29:40 <_3b> if you only need the same results within a single load of the program, just make a copy of *random-state* and then copy that for each run 16:30:13 -!- jewel_ is now known as jewel 16:30:43 <_3b> if you need it the same even after reloading, you will probably need to do it as you suggested (though i'd put it in a var so it doesn't make the code unreadable) 16:30:50 -!- matley- is now known as matley 16:31:02 <_3b> and conditionalize it on #+sbcl if you care about portability 16:31:13 http://paste.lisp.org/display/78558 16:31:29 I'm trying to understand some macro expansion concepts, for macro-defining macros. 16:31:57 yeah i want my unit test suite to run the same every time. can you explain / point me to a link for that #+sbcl reader macro? sorry for all the questions, pretty new to cl.. 16:31:59 Here's what I don't get. The pasted code (from On Lisp) has two abbreviation functions. The first works, the second does not. 16:32:12 <_3b> clhs #+ 16:32:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 16:32:22 trebor_dki: you could start by declaring n to be either a fixnum or (unsigned-byte [however many]) 16:32:41 -!- HET3 is now known as HET2 16:33:29 What is the best way to read and understand comma-quote-comma-symbol, or ,',FOO? 16:33:35 pkhuong and others, sorry, i've been in the wrong channel (#openoffice ;) ... 16:33:39 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:34:17 pkhuong: you think that (declare (fixnum n) ...) would stabilize the speed? 16:34:47 the lookup for *random-state* on every execution of RANDOM will also slow you down. Is your code consing enough to trigger GCs? 16:34:48 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:35:32 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 16:35:36 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:35:41 jonathon: good question. I spent a couple days once trying to come up with a good way to wrap my head around that and never did. 16:35:45 I'm also not clear what the numbers mean in your table. 16:36:26 I think the real answer is, there are a small number of backquote idioms that you actually use and you learn to recognize them in context. 16:36:28 pkhuong: it's the unit test suite, speed is secondary compared to having reproducable results 16:37:05 malcolm_reynolds: not writing to you. 16:37:06 pkhuong: 6e8 is not of type fixnum ;) 16:37:07 jonathon: you split one level of backquoting out into it's own function! :) 16:37:12 pkhuong: ah, sorry 16:37:20 gigamonkey: I agree, but I'd like to truly understand, not just use them. 16:37:21 <_3b> trebor_dki: your loop counter is a bignum after 5.3e8 or so 16:37:49 pkhuong: as i look at the output of time, there is not much time spent in gc. 16:37:53 gigamonkey: I still don't completed have my head around your id3 tags expansion code that does the bookkeeping at compile and expansion time. 16:37:55 <_3b> trebor_dki: (assuming you are on 32bit sbcl) 16:38:12 drewc: Could you elaborate? How could I break up this macro to understand its expansion better? 16:38:15 jonathon: you can do what drewc suggested. You can also play around with hand expanding backquote expressions into plain-old list building code and see if you become enlightened. 16:38:18 Didn't work for me. 16:38:34 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 16:39:20 trebor_dki: it's currently calling generic arithmetic code. That's a lot of code compared to a single instruction, which means more chances for noise and jittering. 16:40:56 jonathon: first, let me say that you should never ever do what graham is doing there... it's silly. :) 16:42:00 jonathon: but, if you want an easy way to understand it, just remove a level of backquoting and observe the form you et. 16:42:52 <_3b> trebor_dki: declaring (unsigned-byte 32) i saves a few seconds 16:43:04 drewc: I can see not doing what Graham did exactly, but for macro-writing-macros, isn't this level of understanding fundamental? 16:43:19 jonathon: Sort of. Not really. 16:43:47 drewc: What I don't get is the difference between ,',FOO and ,,FOO. Why the second comma doesn't disappear after the second expansion. 16:43:48 You can always write you macros without backquote. 16:43:58 gigamonkey: I'm trying that now.. 16:44:02 jonathon: it doesn't disappear .. its' evaluated. 16:44:18 gigamonkey: How do you do ,@ in that case? 16:44:39 jonathon: list* or append, dependin where it appears. 16:44:50 trebor_dki: oh, you have spaces as thousands separators. Hitting the fixnum limit is likely the cause then. 16:44:58 (,foo ,@bar) === (list* foo bar) 16:45:05 got it.... 16:45:07 (,@foo ,@bar) === (append foo bar) 16:45:20 Silly me... 16:45:44 <_3b> trebor_dki: (loop for i of-type (unsigned-byte 32) below n ...) seems reasonably fast 16:45:57 There's a section in the CLHS that provides an algorithm for converting backquote expressions to list-building code. 16:46:12 It's sort of convoluted (and not normative) but you can play with that a bit to see how things work. 16:46:18 http://vader.deepsky.com:8090/us/5a3af6e2 16:46:38 But like I said, doing that for about a day didn't give me any deep, intuitive understanding of how to write arbitrarily complex backquoted expressions. 16:46:39 _3b: in a dotimes, just declaring the type of n should be enough. 16:47:41 <_3b> pkhuong: maybe i declared it in the wrong place... trying again 16:48:13 Hmmm. Maybe I'll check that out. 16:48:51 pkhuong: in random-runner i added ((unsigned-byte 40) n) to the declaretion, which still yields to > 20 secons. 16:48:57 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 16:49:04 (for n = 5e8) 16:49:10 <_3b> trebor_dki, pkhuong: ah, right... declaring n works too 16:49:11 trebor_dki: are you on a 32 bit platform? 16:49:20 yes. 16:49:56 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@ip5657b052.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:03 <_3b> are you expecting to run 2^40 loops even at the previous rate of increase? 16:50:05 (ok so unsigned-byte 40 i suppose0 16:50:08 The declaration is useless. A 40 bit wide integer is a bignum. 16:50:13 jonathon: the trick to remember is that while '`' quotes, ',' evaluates.. 16:50:14 s/40/32 !~ 16:50:27 *trebor_dki* retrying. ... 16:50:46 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:51:00 if you evaluate a quoted symbol, you get a symbol. if you evaluate that again, unless it's bound, you'll get an error. 16:51:19 jonathon: hence, the ,', quotes the returned symbol to avoid evaluating it in the new context. 16:51:21 <_3b> actually, i guess 2^40 might be reasonable, if it were optimized a bit 16:51:27 ah, now it runs in 11 seconds for 6e8 ... thank you pkhuong & _3b 16:51:41 clhs #. 16:51:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhf.htm 16:52:04 yeah... Let's add a long-int primitive type ;) 16:52:36 <_3b> easier to just add a 64 bit cpu :p 16:53:05 drewc: Ok, that helps. 16:53:13 -!- ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@88-108-111-126.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:53:43 Lou__ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 16:53:54 jonathon: have a look at the result of (let ((foo 'print)) ``(,,foo 1)) 16:54:32 sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.123.216.113] has joined #lisp 16:54:54 jonathon: if you evaluate that, you're going to get a 'variable unbound' error because it now looks like `(,print 1) and PRINT is not bound. 16:55:38 jonathon: if, OTOH, you add the quote so it expands to `(,'print 1) 16:56:08 jonathon: it's plain to see that you'll get the symbol PRINT back and inserted where you want it, 16:56:33 You could also look at: (let ((foo 'print)) `(list ',foo 1)) 16:56:52 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 16:56:57 Then say, okay, I can rewrite that LIST expression with backquote: 16:57:09 (let ((foo 'print)) ``(,',foo 1)) 16:57:51 I.e. add the second backquote and add a comma in front of the thing that was evaluated in the LIST expression. 16:58:12 Ah. Okay, I gotta immerse myself until it sinks in. 16:58:18 (Hmmm, if you were being super-mechanical about it you'd write ``(,',foo ,1) 16:58:35 But you don't really need to since 1 is self-evaluating. 16:58:45 Ragnaroek [i=54a64c36@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-453e18b843faed3b] has joined #lisp 16:58:47 gigamonkey: ha, i was about to call you on that one :) 16:59:10 nice team work on balancing parens. 16:59:25 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:59:27 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:59:31 ;-) (Oops, unbalanced again.) (-; there. 16:59:40 heh 17:02:07 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 17:02:19 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:03:58 Noll_Noll [n=28@c-ee70e253.4542024--62697410.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:06:23 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:06:33 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 17:12:07 Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp 17:12:24 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"] 17:12:50 okay i'm now experiencing problems with the argument to the make-random-state function. according to cltl this needs to be a random state object, so I just copied over what *random-state* evaluates to in the repl. getting errors when I expand the macro though.. http://paste.lisp.org/display/78560 17:13:27 I get the feeling it might be a problem with reader macros? 17:14:05 The logger for #lisp seems to be down. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ 17:14:09 insanity: http://code.google.com/p/faslpath/ 17:14:32 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:14:45 clever, though 17:15:04 puchacz_ [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:15:05 gigamonkey: Thank you very much for making your book available in English on the web! I have bought the printed version in Japanese and am reading both versions (Japanese and English), it's great to have both available! 17:16:29 clhs make-random-state 17:16:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_rnd.htm 17:16:42 emacsphan: Cool. I wondered if anyone was buying the Japanese translation. 17:17:54 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 17:18:07 gigamonkey: I am a native English speaker interested in doing translation in the programming/IT field, so having the English version available on the web is invaluable to me. I found the Japanese book at a major bookstore in Osaka, Japan 17:18:20 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:18:26 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:19:02 Neat. Apress has been strangely uninformative about the Japanese translation. I need to write to them about it. 17:19:10 gigamonkey: I think I've also seen it at a bookstore in Kyoto 17:19:30 bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.234.1] has joined #lisp 17:20:06 gigamonkey: it is hard to find books in Lisp in Japanese at most bookstores, other than yours, the only other book I have encountered is On Lisp and I have only seen it at a store once 17:20:19 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:20:36 I hope your book sells well and more Japanese programmers get turned on to CL! 17:20:51 I am trying to get my programmer friends interested in it 17:20:53 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:21:03 ...told them about your book 17:21:17 I am only on Chapter 8, hehe 17:21:22 Does it seem like a good translation? 17:21:42 gigamonkey: yes, I would say so 17:21:55 The common unicode support might be a good selling point 17:22:12 dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 17:22:42 clhs #s 17:22:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhm.htm 17:22:55 -!- sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.123.216.113] has quit [] 17:23:39 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:23:53 gigamonkey: is there an easy way to get my Lisp In A Box to access the aspell that my other installation of Emacs uses? 17:24:03 josemanuel [n=josemanu@113.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:24:16 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-566d445e631a47eb] has joined #lisp 17:24:48 hmm, russian translation of pcl looks almost finished 17:25:06 dlowe: that looks like the dependency semantics they implemented for the dojo javascript system. 17:25:14 it probably works much better in CL. 17:26:41 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:46 <_3b> having to :use all the dependencies sounds annoying 17:27:53 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:13 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:28:21 _3b: you'd rather grovel for the deps based on the function calls? 17:28:22 but is it more annoying than having to :depends-on all the dependencies? I don't know 17:28:35 bombshelter13p__ [n=bombshel@24.114.235.1] has joined #lisp 17:28:57 <_3b> i tend to use package prefixes explicitly most of the time 17:29:26 i write :use clauses explicitly already, so it's not a big deal for me. looks like an interesting system. 17:29:39 emacsphan: not really. Lispbox is really designed to be standalone. 17:29:46 It is also suffering from severe bit rot. 17:30:00 gigamonkey: bit rot? what is that? 17:30:04 I might use package prefixes a lot more if there were support for relative package naems 17:30:14 does lispbox come inside the PCL book? My copy had no disk. 17:30:19 I.e. it's old. I haven't built new versions in quite some time so it comes with very old version of Lisp and Emacs and SLIME. 17:30:21 <_3b> yeah, local package nicknames would help 17:30:26 Fade. No. 17:30:32 *nod* 17:30:42 It's on my website. But, like I said, it's pretty old. 17:30:58 If for some reason I get back into th Lisp-book writing business, I'd probably dust it off. 17:31:03 clbuild slime is probably as good a way as any these days 17:31:11 gigamonkey: well, it was and is nice to have something that I could start up and play with right away 17:31:13 i already had sbcl+slime by the time I got to PCL, so it wasn't a big deal. 17:31:14 And there is a Google Code project, in case anyone wanted to do something with it. 17:31:25 i guess the lispbox idea would be good for windows users. 17:32:35 at some point I suppose I will figure out how to install SLIME into my other non-LiaB Emacs, but that seems complicated to this newbie 17:32:45 emacsphan: hence clbuild. 17:32:53 Well, if you're already an Emacs user, it shouldn't be too bad. 17:32:54 clbuild is your friend. 17:32:59 emacsphan: are you on windows? 17:33:15 Lispbox is really for people who don't know Emacs at all. 17:33:25 Fade: Mac os X here 17:33:50 i use carbon emacs + clozure + slime on my mac. 17:34:15 if you have an intel mac, then clbuild will give you a nice sbcl environment. 17:34:35 Fade: actually, I'm afraid I don't have an Intel Mac! 17:35:01 deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:03 doesn't sbcl work well on ppc? 17:35:12 it works, but it isn't threaded. 17:35:26 i've found clozure to be the best option on ppc. 17:35:59 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:36:14 although i've never tried any of the comercial cl implementations. 17:36:20 I assume they're good. 17:37:00 paying for learning doesn't sound good to me 17:37:05 loxs [n=loxs@77.85.233.176] has joined #lisp 17:38:11 i cant't get clisp to compile with threads on posix 17:38:28 even not with the sources from sourceforge 17:38:52 what is posix? 17:39:03 Irix! 17:39:08 okay I've got my problem a bit more narrowed down. I have saved-state-array such that (type-of saved-state-array) => (SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 32) (627)) 17:39:13 anyway, no wonder, threads in clisp are experimental 17:39:24 however when I try to make a random-state object with this.. 17:39:52 That's not the code you pasted. 17:40:03 #S(random-state :state saved-state-array) => "the value saved-state-array is not of type (SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 32) (627))" 17:40:05 i don't know what spwv is, but libspwb or libspvw gives errors 17:40:12 yeah i've worked on it since then. let me put up the latest 17:40:32 and netica and matlab modules don't work 17:40:44 cause i don't have the headers i think 17:40:53 http://paste.lisp.org/display/78562 17:40:59 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:41:38 and even C_THREADS don't work 17:41:47 threading is totally bugged in clisp 17:42:05 so yes experimental 17:42:24 doesn't readme say something like "HIGHLY EXPERIMENTAL"? 17:42:30 yes it does 17:42:40 i wanted to assertion what that means to me 17:42:41 lol 17:43:03 errr 17:43:04 malcolm_reynolds: the #S reader macro doesn't evaluate the arguments. That's why the printed representation used #. 17:43:10 my english is bugged too today 17:43:14 I guess however that JIT is even more experimental... 17:43:21 maybe green threads would be more interesting for clisp 17:43:25 *rsynnott* hadn't even realised that it had gotten to the highly experimental point 17:43:36 stassats: that was not listed in the thread FLAVOURS 17:43:39 in .config 17:44:01 i didn't try sunos or win32 threads 17:44:04 green threads are non-native threads 17:44:07 cause i'm on linux 17:44:27 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has left #lisp 17:44:33 does (save-lisp-and-die :executable t) work in sbcl on windows? 17:45:19 pkhuong: ah great, seems to work with #S(random-state :state #.saved-state-array). thanks for your help! 17:45:25 <_3b> Fade: yes 17:45:41 cool 17:46:16 jfactor [n=jfactor@student164-180.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 17:46:37 malcolm_reynolds: two things: 1. defconstant on those values isn't recommended 2. why do you need saved-state-array? 17:46:53 -!- bombshelter13p__ [n=bombshel@24.114.235.1] has quit [Success] 17:46:55 and by the way, the way they use to bootstrap clos is extreme layered 17:47:02 2: I was just trying to pull all the expressions apart to narrow down which bit was failing 17:47:10 as for 1, what would be best practice? 17:47:23 defparameter or defvar. 17:47:24 i don't know what i should do to have maybe closette bootstrapped with clisp 17:47:32 err 17:47:42 hmmm 17:48:02 i man to have a minimal clos 17:48:13 pkhuong: presumably that will stop the warnings I get when I recompile? 17:48:23 oh and 3. you should probably stick to the naming convention of +constants+ and *specials*. 17:48:39 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 17:48:43 what do the warning say? 17:48:55 just that the constant is being redefined 17:49:07 the new value is the same, but i guess you get a warning anyway 17:49:17 and one thing i don't understand is that /usr/lib/clisp/base is linked to /usr/lib/clisp/full when i install the debian package of clisp, but now when i compile it myself 17:49:19 it's not the same, since it's not EQL. 17:49:28 ah, i see 17:49:39 and the latter one is better i think 17:49:39 -!- bombshelter13p_ [n=bombshel@24.114.234.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:50:07 when you said *specials*, does that cover things in defvar and defparameter? 17:50:08 the latter is bigger and more featureful, i guess 17:50:24 malcolm_reynolds: yes. 17:50:32 stassats: yes i think so, but i don't know why debian links base to full automagically 17:50:59 sepult_: because debian maintainers decided to make it that way 17:51:28 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:51:31 stassats: ok but clisp -K full is then uneccessary 17:51:47 stassats: and we don't have a way for clisp -K base then 17:51:53 or just clisp 17:51:58 i mean the base 17:52:00 silenius [n=jl@e178020254.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:52:32 yes, but since full contains base, it's not a problem 17:53:11 stassats: as long as you go with the full feature set yes, but what do you do when you want to get rid of some features temporarily ? 17:53:30 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:53:35 hrmmm 17:54:03 maybe that accounts for the fact i'm not accustomed to the clisp system fully now 17:54:23 maybe i would know what to do if i did understand clisp fully 17:54:37 ok 17:55:01 and i got arclisp 17:55:06 heh 17:55:09 my guess would be, that you may want to disable some features only when you have limited memory 17:55:36 *gigamonkey* gets bit once again by destructiveness of SORT 17:56:44 and debian isn't famous for being very customizable, unless you want to build from sources 17:57:07 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.238.245] has joined #lisp 17:57:10 I love ECL 18:00:53 European Cyber League? 18:01:13 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 18:02:09 minion: what does ECL stand for? 18:02:09 Effortful Common Lisp 18:03:06 i got the sources now for clisp, sbcl, cmucl and gcl 18:03:14 -!- emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:03:22 clisp was the first i checked 18:04:24 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:04:35 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:05:28 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 18:06:04 -!- jonathon [n=user@66.43.153.130] has left #lisp 18:06:52 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 18:07:09 I've always wondered; what are the immediate effects of compiling sbcl with, for example, clisp? 18:07:25 it won't compile 18:07:31 a-s` [n=user@92.81.117.113] has joined #lisp 18:07:47 ah, it says so in the installation instructions. 18:07:55 outdated? 18:08:22 maybe with an old version of clisp 18:08:37 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 18:08:38 -!- a-s` [n=user@92.81.117.113] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:08:48 and an old version of SBCL 18:09:11 clisp first compiles sbcl, and then that sbcl compiles itself again, so there shouldn't be any effects 18:09:35 "shouldn't" 18:09:49 I'm currently working on that 18:09:58 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:10:19 I'm pretty sure my very first sbcl was compiled using clisp back when gentoo had the only reasonable port to amd64. 18:10:35 stassats's description is not quite true. Have a read of 18:10:50 clisp compilation might or might not work, depending on some factor that I haven't tracked down yet 18:10:58 it should build under cmucl or xcl reliably 18:11:03 or abcl 18:11:27 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:12:12 minion: what does xcl stand for? 18:12:13 Xiphisterna Common Lisp 18:12:35 doh. I thought that was a real feature/service 18:13:21 ejs [n=eugen@9-32-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:00 tsuru`: it's useful when you want to find a name for your implementation 18:14:22 minion: what does pcl stand for? 18:14:22 Pittancer Common Lisp 18:14:42 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-80-229.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:42 But bootstrapping can't possibly remove all compiler traces? 18:14:48 stassats: so I see... but I still wonder what xcl is. I haven't heard that impl. yet 18:14:52 PhazeDK: why not? 18:14:54 Or maybe in theory? 18:15:02 and I don't is it in the lisp survey 18:15:09 s/is/see 18:15:23 tsuru`: written in c++, by original abcl author 18:15:29 minion: XCL? 18:15:30 XCL: XCL is a Common lisp implementation licensed under GPL. http://www.cliki.net/XCL 18:15:56 and its development is stalled 18:16:34 thanks 18:17:15 developed in secret? 18:20:09 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-155.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:25:11 Why do I always miss interesting discussions, and always show up when they seem to be over? 18:26:49 *splittist* hopes no-one tells beach about the conspiracy... 18:26:50 damn 18:27:06 *AHA*!!! 18:27:37 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@80-118.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["and so to home"] 18:27:54 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:33:21 beach, you can always reopen the discussion. I'd love to learn more about sbcl internals (reading the article Krystof showed me has suddenly made me very interested..) 18:33:38 I should be doing my homework though.. 18:34:02 yay, the first CL buildsystem that actively conflates packages and, er, packages 18:34:21 PhazeDK: Yeah, sure. I suggest you do your homework first, and *then* become an SBCL hacker. 18:34:37 Yeah, priorities! 18:35:03 PhazeDK: First do what you are told to, then what you want. The other way around doesn't work so well. 18:35:18 More realistically, trying to do your homework will make you hack, though. 18:36:09 pkhuong: That might be the reality, though when I still had homework, it made we want to clean my room and stuff like that, but we don't want things like that to be widely known. 18:36:18 or at least induce a mild coughing spell 18:36:37 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit ["bye"] 18:42:29 -!- ejs [n=eugen@9-32-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:43:15 my room's never cleaner than during exam periods 18:43:51 kinnetica [n=kinnetic@dhcp-227-31.wireless.american.edu] has joined #lisp 18:46:08 jao [n=jao@7.Red-83-37-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:46 good undergraduate education builds both your character and your room cleaning skills 18:46:46 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70dcd6.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:50:07 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 18:50:41 -!- sundar_ [i=IceChat7@59.92.126.98] has left #lisp 18:51:05 tmarble [n=tmarble@user-38q4e4l.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:07 also alcohol resistence 18:51:56 -!- loxs [n=loxs@77.85.233.176] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:52:01 rsynnott: you mean the ability to refuse it? 18:52:15 well, possibly, certainly not in my case 18:52:37 LinkFly [n=linkfly@62.140.244.27] has joined #lisp 18:52:44 I was going to say, I was a very successful undergraduate, and I don't recall every refusing. 18:53:13 -!- Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has quit ["BitchX-1.1-final -- just do it."] 18:55:06 beach: alcohol tolerance, he means 18:56:11 dlowe: Ah, yes, of course. Thanks! 18:56:38 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 18:57:37 ah, tolerance, yes 18:58:39 brought to you by the letter V and the word "Whoa" 18:59:49 anyway, does the shiny new CCL release crash just for me while trying to load Swank, or am I lucky? 19:01:27 granted, I have a somewhat peculiar system (colinux), but everything else seems to like it just fine... 19:03:58 so does colinux relate to linux distributions as gcl relates to cl implementations? :) 19:04:33 no, not really. colinux is just a tweak on the kernel. You can use regular debian on top of it. 19:05:04 which is what I do 19:05:26 sbcl runs great, has been for several years 19:05:51 Hi, I have often # in the console, which, I presume is an error caught by handler-case and printed. Can I check up where it comes from? 19:06:05 not the same object all the time of course 19:06:28 puchacz_: if you land in the debugger, you are exactly where the error comes from 19:06:30 you could remove the handler-case 19:06:44 Krystof: only if I knew which one 19:06:44 other strategies include setting *break-on-signals* to 'simple-error 19:07:06 Krystof: I'll try the second one then, thanks 19:07:07 how many handlers which print to the console do you have in your system? 19:07:14 if it's more than one, that sounds wrong 19:07:19 I can look up of course 19:07:56 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:13:52 -!- jao [n=jao@7.Red-83-37-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:14:08 buggarage [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-241.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:14:50 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:59 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:58 (also, if you're printing errors, use princ or similar, the output will be less useless) 19:20:12 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:23:05 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.199.215] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:25:05 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:25:44 -!- buggarage [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-241.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:26:21 mega1 [n=mega@3e70dcd6.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 19:28:46 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6C564.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 19:36:07 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A1C6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:36:41 H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0C771.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:02 buggarage [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-241.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:38:15 -!- tcr 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[i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 19:47:27 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:51:27 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@nomad51069.netlogon.lu.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:51:34 is backquote a reader macro? 19:51:58 clhs ` 19:51:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 19:54:03 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 19:55:03 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:39 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:56:55 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 19:57:47 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:58:06 malc_ [n=malc@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:59:54 -!- silenius [n=jl@e178020254.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:00:10 silenius 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[Client Quit] 21:01:41 -!- sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.123.216.113] has left #lisp 21:03:50 -!- TDT [n=user@191.16.63.69.dyn.southslope.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:05:37 -!- dwave [n=ask@084202073031.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 21:06:30 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70dcd6.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:08:03 -!- PhazeDK [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:08:52 buggarage [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-241.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:09:37 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 21:10:29 jonathon [n=user@66.43.153.130] has joined #lisp 21:10:46 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:02 I've got the double backquote examples down to just a few simple ones... 21:11:09 supposed *c* is bound to 42. 21:11:27 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:37 ``(a b ,*c*) evaluates to `(a b ,*c*) 21:11:59 while `(a b ,(quote ,*c*)) evaluates to '(a b 42) 21:12:24 and lastly, ``(a b ,' ,*c*) evaluates to '(a b 42) 21:13:50 I still can't figure out why *c* is evaluated inside 2 levels of commas when only one backquote is evaluated. 21:14:46 -!- creddy [n=destinat@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:14:59 `(a b ,(quote ,*c*)) looks like a bug to me, what implementation are you using? 21:15:45 SBCL 1.0.25 21:16:41 really? 21:16:59 cause it says "comma not inside a backquote" for me. 21:18:16 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 21:21:32 That's what I thought it should say.... 21:21:55 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 21:22:00 Maybe. I clearly don't completely grasp this... 21:22:27 -!- kuhzoo1 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:24:03 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:28:31 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:18 -!- jonathon [n=user@66.43.153.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:34:08 creddy [n=pamphlet@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 21:36:22 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:57 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:39:00 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:39:29 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 21:39:48 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:27 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:41:05 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:41:43 -!- buggarage is now known as buggarage_ 21:41:44 anybody know of any good tutorials about using sbcl and asdf ? 21:41:59 i'm a total lisp newb and trying to get cl-opengl working on OS X 21:42:51 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:02 -!- joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [] 21:43:09 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 21:43:10 that's easy, put .asd files into asdf:*central-registry* directory and do (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :cl-opengl) 21:43:15 koaftder: you need freeglut atm. 21:43:39 -!- luis` is now known as luis 21:44:33 -!- malc_ [n=malc@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 21:45:31 so i can just copy the asdf files and stuff 'em in therer? 21:45:42 it doesn't need any of those lisp files? 21:46:08 koaftder: you do need the lisp files. Use links instead. 21:46:19 Or use clbuild, perhaps. 21:46:29 minion: tell koaftder about clbuild 21:46:30 koaftder: direct your attention towards clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 21:46:31 make a symbolic link: ln -s ~/foo/file.asd ~/centrial-registry/file.asd 21:47:02 dwave [n=ask@084202073031.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 21:47:41 oh, cool 21:48:55 -!- silenius [n=jl@e178020254.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:49:03 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:06 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student164-180.hampshire.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:49:32 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:49:37 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:50:51 getting somewhere finally 21:50:59 will i need the x server too? 21:51:37 Yeah, I'm afraid so. 21:52:02 i got xcode on here so it should be on the machine somewhere 21:52:40 koaftder: someone figured out a way to make it work properly with the native GLUT, but no patches yet. And I don't have easy access to OSX anymore. 21:53:15 koaftder: perhaps you'll fix that! :-) 21:53:36 -!- kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:54:04 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:54:11 luis: no more OSX notebook ? 21:55:00 -!- kinnetica [n=kinnetic@dhcp-227-31.wireless.american.edu] has quit [] 21:55:13 fe[nl]ix: yeah, the disk died and the screen was starting to fail too IIRC. 21:55:14 haha, i need to learn more 21:56:17 i'll probably learn pretty quick considering that with the emacs/slime setup i can make changes and hit one key on the keyboard and instantly get a result 21:56:53 koaftder: yeah, it's quite fun to learn that way. 21:57:01 instant gratification 21:59:09 kpreid [n=kpreid@12.20.227.217] has joined #lisp 22:00:15 -!- puchacz_ [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 22:01:25 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p4FD2A9D5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:02:47 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 22:02:48 -!- kij [n=kij@79.138.235.19.bredband.3.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:03:07 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:06:07 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:07:18 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-207-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:07:42 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:20 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.71.36] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:08:35 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 22:09:23 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-235.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:10:54 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-97-90.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:15:16 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-13060.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 22:15:29 rme pasted "opengl example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78580 22:15:33 koaftder: That paste is an example of how you'd do simple OpenGL stuff with Clozure CL on Mac OS X, if you happen to be willing to use implementation-specific code. 22:16:31 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:17:21 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:24 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 22:17:34 Lots of direct foreign calls, so that might not be as nice as a more lisp-like OpenGL interface, though. 22:18:16 -!- tsuru` [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:38 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 22:19:21 WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:40 tweek___ [n=tweek@host-231-137-111-24.midco.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:16 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p4FD2A9D5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:20:28 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p4FD2A9D5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:22:28 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Client Quit] 22:22:51 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@12.20.227.217] has quit [] 22:23:11 -!- rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-404b74981110867f] has quit [] 22:25:09 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:25:33 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:09 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:29:01 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-206.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 22:29:34 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:29:58 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 22:30:10 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-59-241.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:33:31 Hello, anyone know ECL from the C side of things? 22:34:32 -!- koaftder [n=user@adsl-144-163-224.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:35:09 -!- buggarage_ is now known as buggarage 22:35:34 -!- dwave [n=ask@084202073031.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 22:35:40 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:02 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:40:16 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:43:03 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:44:09 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:44:50 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 22:46:51 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless297.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:47:39 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:48:07 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 22:49:37 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:50 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:58 Fade: why is clozure cl the best for ppc? 22:57:47 phuxmache [n=user@88.238.217.138] has joined #lisp 22:58:06 I think it is popular for Mac in general ... because it comes from a specific Mac implementation 22:58:20 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@113.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 22:58:43 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:59:53 well, it's a nice lisp that supports threading on PPC 23:00:27 what about mactel? 23:00:39 I'd rather use sbcl everywhere. 23:01:17 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:01:20 -!- phuxmache [n=user@88.238.217.138] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:13 i think sbcl is at *feature* parity with linux on mactel. 23:02:27 brown [n=user@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 23:02:28 but ccl is stable on mac 23:02:46 kidd1 [n=kidd@91.Red-83-36-90.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:55 -!- brown is now known as Guest1661 23:03:10 phuxmache [n=user@88.238.217.138] has joined #lisp 23:03:17 it is. 23:03:22 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-13060.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:03:25 using clozure is not a hardship. 23:03:44 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-98-218-239-172.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:38 ccl provides a gui toolkit which is so attractive 23:04:39 -!- phuxmache [n=user@88.238.217.138] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:05:20 -!- buggarage is now known as buggarage_ 23:05:24 there are several gui toolkits available for common lisp. 23:05:41 lichtblau has bindings for QT 23:05:51 ++awesome 23:05:52 Fade: all of them look very experimental and unfinished 23:06:07 commonqt is nice 23:06:19 -!- kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:06:45 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 23:06:53 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:08:16 leo2007: that's in part because all software is experimental and unfinished (: 23:08:27 nice :) 23:09:21 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:09:42 but also because gui toolkits are a lot of work, and people lose interest and go work on something they actually want to work on (: 23:11:55 koaftder [n=user@adsl-221-72-14.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:59 also likely because a lot of lisp action appears to be happening server-side these days. 23:12:27 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:13:56 mmh, hot server-side client-to-server action. 23:13:57 -!- deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:14:00 grind those irons! 23:14:06 ltriant [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:14:22 deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:14:47 ew. 23:15:03 yeah. apologies. 23:15:20 -!- legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-32-172.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:15:24 legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-32-172.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 23:15:55 heh 23:17:56 good night (: 23:18:46 apo_ [n=apo@pD9E7EDD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:16 Hi. I just started learning Lisp and I'm doing a couple of Project Euler questions as exercise, but I'm already stuck at #3... getting a segfault: http://0au.de/~apo/lisp.txt 23:20:35 Does anybody know why it dies? It's always somewhere around N=40xx 23:20:40 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:02 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-8.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:21:13 phuxmache [n=user@88.238.217.138] has joined #lisp 23:21:37 -!- phuxmache [n=user@88.238.217.138] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:22:53 phuxmache [n=user@88.238.217.138] has joined #lisp 23:23:22 -!- phuxmache [n=user@88.238.217.138] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:26:41 apo_: your solution works for me in ccl. 23:27:14 rme: Huh. I'm using clisp on x64... 23:27:18 apo_: stack overflow probably. Did you compile clisp yourself? 23:27:24 *apo_* installs ccl 23:27:36 luis: Stack overflow? After 4000 calls? :| 23:27:39 luis: I didn't 23:28:04 apo_: try (compile 'pe3) before calling it. 23:28:31 MAGIC! 23:28:34 Thanks. :D 23:28:45 What was the reason for that? 23:29:11 apo_: CLISP has both an interpreter and a compiler. 23:31:08 apo_: you were running interpreted code. Perhaps the interpreter takes up more stack, or perhaps the compiler does tail call optimization and the interpreter doesn't. I don't know. 23:31:58 apo_: But it shouldn't segfault like that. Perhaps your clisp was compiled without libsegsegv or something like that? (Wild guess.) 23:31:58 luis: Alright, thanks 23:32:20 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@94-224-246-148.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 23:32:49 luis: No idea. How do I find that out? 23:33:21 apo_: clisp --version shows how it was compiled. Look for -lsigsegv 23:33:30 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:33:43 clisp --version | grep sigsegv 23:33:47 Did that 23:33:49 It's in there 23:35:25 OK. It was just a wild guess. Nevermind. Maybe it's worth reporting that bug. 23:36:07 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@91.Red-83-36-90.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:37:06 Alright, but I'll compile it first and see if it still dies 23:39:38 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:43:26 Ohh, nasty. 23:43:33 Just got another segfault while compiling. 23:46:36 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p4FD2A9D5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:46:41 luis: the interpreter doesn't preserve tail-call-ness, it seems (might be for the better debug info CLISP has for interpreted code) 23:47:19 a proper alpha-beta minimax search algorithm should return the same score as a minimax implementation without pruning, right? 23:47:27 not necessarily the same -move- though 23:47:32 which is driving me nuts 23:47:39 -!- kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:47:48 because then I have no way to check to make sure I'm doing it right 23:49:08 tweek___: depends on which alpha beta you're implementing. The exact one would right, but it's fairly complex and doesn't prune as much as heuristic alpha beta. 23:49:46 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:50:11 I'm not sorting anything, I'm not using basically any modifications besides simply breaking out of a dolist if alpha ever gets over beta 23:50:51 the minimax implementation always returns a list of four moves 23:51:03 in one board state I'm getting two moves for alpha-beta, two completely different ones 23:51:18 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-254-60-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 23:51:33 I can't figure out how or why it's returning nil and cutting things off 23:52:08 think hard. 23:53:00 only way the list could be cut off that early is if something's returning nil two ply down 23:53:09 only way something returns nil is if it hits four-ply 23:53:14 or if there are no moves available 23:53:58 the parameter is in a let, and not initialized, but it cannot break out of the loop until it finds a move that's better than alpha 23:54:32 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:55:17 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:55:44 *** - DEFSETF AREF: invalid DEFSETF lambda-list: Lambda list element INDICES is superfluous. Only one variable is allowed after &REST. Bye. <--- Oo 23:55:48 -!- tmarble [n=tmarble@user-38q4e4l.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:56:44 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl200.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 23:58:02 joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 23:58:47 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483A716.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"]