00:03:19 jonathansizz [n=ian@216.16.222.80.dyn-cm-pool50.pool.hargray.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:52 -!- jonathansizz [n=ian@216.16.222.80.dyn-cm-pool50.pool.hargray.net] has left #lisp 00:04:15 jonathansizz [n=ian@216.16.222.80.dyn-cm-pool50.pool.hargray.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:17 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:04:48 -!- jonathansizz [n=ian@216.16.222.80.dyn-cm-pool50.pool.hargray.net] has left #lisp 00:08:09 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:15 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 00:13:04 -!- cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:15:34 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:41 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-183-103-90.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:52 cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has joined #lisp 00:16:58 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 00:17:57 -!- H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0DC46.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:18:17 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:19:59 -!- md1 [n=user@stip-srk131.195-146-143.telecom.sk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:20:11 if slime can run sbcl hiding repl, there should be a way of doing this 00:23:12 -!- Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:23:24 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 00:24:28 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:26:05 -!- nis [n=nicolas@88-121-114-89.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:29:17 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-43-178.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:33:21 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 00:34:43 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:35:30 -!- slash_ [n=unknown@p5DD1D7B5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 00:36:18 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 00:36:41 _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.137.1] has joined #lisp 00:39:30 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:40:33 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:40:58 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 00:42:29 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:48 JAS415 [n=jon@c-24-34-16-25.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:20 how do you find out how many characters it'd take to print a certain number? 00:48:30 I remember there were a bunch of builtin functions that handle this stuff 00:49:09 (1+ (truncate (log number 10))) 00:49:14 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:49:36 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:22 integer-length is for base-2 00:51:32 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 00:51:48 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:52:13 that is for integers, not all numbers 00:52:57 If I am using the Weblocks framework and CLSQL, and I wanted to create a table (datagrid, for example) containing a one to many join of two of my classes (i.e. the join produces a list of all of the employees in a given company), how would I go about getting the data *into* the datagrid table? I tried using [example here..] (employee-list-accessor company), but it still makes me define a data-class, and the table produced contains everything i 00:53:42 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 00:54:08 i was using the :data initarg on the accessor/object combo 00:54:14 is there a function to "shift" characters? i.e. go from #\a -> #\c? 00:54:17 : Data 00:54:47 you could get the char-code and add one and then get the character 00:54:56 although i dunno if that would be alphabetic 00:55:09 (char-code (1+ (char-code #\a))) 00:55:25 JAS415: thanks, i'll check it out 00:55:28 i.e. (code-char (1+ (char-code #\a))) 00:56:02 stassats: exactly what i'm looking for. 00:56:03 yeah that :-) 00:57:15 while i'm here, is there a definitive source for function documentation? I've seen hyperspec, but it seems lacking to me. i'm using gnu clisp 00:57:37 ah 00:57:43 hyperspec is good for definitive 00:57:56 common lisp the language good for english non-definitive 00:58:04 and clisp imp notes for clisp 00:58:06 (i.e. its wrong sometimes) 00:58:11 i stand corrected 00:58:38 hyperspec is almost like a standard 00:59:03 i've found the wrongness of CLTL 2 to be kind of overstated honestly 00:59:14 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:59:34 it's not wrongness, but rather outdateness 01:00:06 outdatedness ?? 01:00:14 yes 01:00:17 i guess that makes sense 01:00:25 i can't even find the version 1 of it 01:00:29 its kind of like 'some things are in there that aren't in the language' 01:00:51 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/cltl2.html 01:00:54 oh 01:00:59 you mean specifically version one 01:01:03 that were removed after it was published 01:01:04 but that's ambiguous, which language ? 01:01:13 the extended, the base ? 01:01:27 there is no extended or base lisp 01:01:37 _common lisp_ 01:01:47 there is 01:02:03 no, there isn't 01:02:17 ok, then what's the impl. language ? 01:02:19 non-ambiguously: some of the scan stuff isn't in there, would be an example 01:02:26 sepult: don't mix PLT Scheme language levels with CL 01:02:40 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.146.208] has joined #lisp 01:02:47 isn't that kind of a base language ? 01:02:51 if you start there ? 01:02:54 envi^laptop [n=envi@115.94.144.228] has joined #lisp 01:03:23 i'm talking in the clhs terms, you may invent whatever definitions you want 01:03:27 ansi standard common lisp? 01:03:28 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@115.94.144.228] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:04:02 i didn't read it, hang around on-lisp 01:04:04 lol 01:04:15 that was the proposal 01:04:20 for it i think 01:04:22 envi^laptop [n=envi@115.94.144.228] has joined #lisp 01:04:31 some of it 01:05:19 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 01:05:32 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 01:06:16 but it's definitely not easy to follow the clos metaobjects 01:06:18 for me 01:06:50 let alone, how it goes with the implementation 01:06:54 i couldn't follow what you are talking about either 01:06:57 which is differing somewhat 01:07:30 we are talking just about lisp 01:07:32 ?? 01:08:03 it's a deep matter though 01:08:32 koaftder [n=koft@adsl-150-136-139.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:46 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 01:12:48 blue_lander [n=lander@24-178-203-115.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:13:26 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:15:03 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:18:40 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-159.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:18:59 nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:17 Hello all. 01:19:17 nyef, memo from fe[nl]ix: http://aegisknight.org/2009/03/disabling-functions/ 01:21:52 Heh. Cute. 01:22:27 -!- jao [n=jao@obfw.oblong.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:29:58 this Othello player I wrote seems to be kicking this other game's ass 01:30:33 but I can't tell and since I'm using straight minimax for now, with no hashing or anything, every move takes forever and only evaluates 4-ply 01:31:18 Do I remember rightly that it's a 10x10 grid for Othello? 01:31:26 8x8 01:31:37 but there's really nothing stopping you from using a 10x10 grid 01:31:42 it's solved for 6x6 and 4x4 01:32:11 Heh. I thought 8x8 originally and then decided that it "felt" too small. 01:32:18 What constitutes "solved"? 01:32:38 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:33:21 nyef: the game graph has been exhaustively explored (or at least enough to tell the absence/presence of a winning strategy). 01:34:01 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host60-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 01:34:18 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 01:34:40 Ah. 01:35:18 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 01:35:19 64 trits to a game state, 128 bits if loosely packed... 01:35:41 'trits' 01:35:49 Trinary Digits. 01:35:55 yeah, it's a stupid name 01:36:16 I all but guarantee that everyone else implementing this is going to be doing it using straight lists 01:36:25 -lists-? 01:36:34 huh? 01:36:42 (('black 'black 'white nil 'white ...) (...) ... ) 01:37:03 Sod that. I'd pack everything into an array of ub-64s. 01:37:28 why not just use two bitvectors of length 64 01:37:32 ub8s and raw references for block ops ;) 01:37:33 One for the mask of which places have pieces and the other with the mask of which pieces are black. 01:37:38 yeah bitvectors 01:38:20 how the hell do you profile a Lisp script anyway? 01:38:24 I have a 64-bit machine, so it's a good representation for me. 01:38:29 does that make any sense 01:38:32 which reminds me, I've got swapping the active player on my chess position representation down to ~60 instructions. <3 SSE ;) 01:38:33 ... With a profiler, of course! 01:38:46 what is profiling? 01:38:58 JAS415: It's that thing you do before optimizing. 01:38:58 an ub-64 is an unsigned int of length 64 bits, right? 01:39:11 tweek__: An unsigned -byte- of 64 bits. 01:39:14 oh, why would you do that on a script? 01:39:24 a byte is 8 bits 01:39:32 so sayeth ... someone 01:39:32 tweek__: Not here it isn't. 01:39:33 JAS415: to make it run faster? 01:39:34 JAS415: what's a 'script'? 01:39:53 or consume less space 01:40:00 idk i think of scripts as throwaway 01:40:00 tweek__: If you want 8 bits, use an octet. If you want an arbitrary number of bits, use a byte. 01:40:18 JAS415: I have throw-away programs that run for CPU-months. 01:40:23 drakej [n=fred@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:23 if i'm profiling it i get to call it a utility :-) 01:40:38 I think of "scripts" as those bits that are more glue than program. 01:41:10 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-30-169.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:41:26 is there a more efficient way to store 64 bits in lisp other than a bitvector? 01:41:31 if so to hell with 'em, I'll use it 01:41:53 implementation and platform dependant. 01:42:05 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:42:34 this won't run anywhere else beyond loonicks using GNU clisp 01:42:39 And also depends on how much work you're willing to go to for it and what your actual use-cases are... 01:42:51 efficient? clisp? 01:42:52 Oh, GNU clisp? Famed for its 16-bit fixnums? 01:43:10 ... Wait, wasn't clisp also famed for its bignum performance? 01:43:10 well, okay, what lisp interpreter / compiler should I be using 01:43:12 not 24? 01:43:12 nyef: 22 bits, actually, I think. 01:43:23 right, 24. 01:43:49 it's a homework assignment, but I might be able to tell the guy to run it using a different compiler / whatever 01:43:59 Ah, right. sizeof(int) in some C compiler. Also sizeof(long) and sizeof(short) in the same said compilers. 01:44:35 <_death> looks like 25 bit fixnums to me 01:45:46 i like clisp for happy hacking vs. sbcl which i use for serious rage hacking 01:46:16 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:46:23 Oh! While I think of it, does anyone use type translators in CFFI? 01:46:35 serious rage hacking sounds like my kinda thing 01:46:41 I tried looking earlier today via google and google code search and found no real examples. 01:47:13 legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-34-253.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:47:47 <_death> nyef: do you mean :simple-parser stuff? 01:48:17 I mean define-type-translator 01:48:26 nyef: UUID again? 01:49:09 nyef: I was looking at it a little, but I haven't yet made them work like I want... 01:49:27 phf [n=phf@c-98-231-211-226.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:36 pkhuong: I was able to call a windows function for generating a new GUID with it and it looked like it worked. The only bit remaining to test is passing them to functions as data. 01:50:09 <_death> nyef: the cffi-devel seems to have some examples 01:50:39 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-0-100.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:50:40 _death: Sure, but what I'm interested in is if anyone acutally -uses- the functionality. 01:50:55 I don't actually use CFFI myself, so examples don't quite help me. 01:51:38 yasuto [n=yasuto@pon100-117.kcn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:52:00 *p_l* wanted to use them so that he could automatically parse translate CLOS objects into various C references and back 01:52:42 p_l: I'm thinking of using SB-ALIEN type translators to automatically convert HWNDs to CLOS instances. 01:53:27 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:54:35 Instant boxed HWNDs that can't be converted to integers without so much as a by-your-leave, automatic conversion to CLOS instances, looking up known instances in a weak-valued hash table so you can discriminate on yiour own window classes, etc. Possibly even have an auto-mapping for known window class names to CLOS classes to automatically wrap controls, etc. 01:55:01 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.146.208] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:55:39 I have a feeling that an util library for CFFI for doing that would be nice :3 01:56:13 It might be. But I'm not going to do it. As I just said earlier, I don't use CFFI. 01:56:45 What I'm far more likely to do is make SB-ALIEN-INTERNALS a little friendlier to user extensions to the alien type system. 01:57:41 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-128-47.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:49 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:58:11 bobf_ [n=bob@host81-154-14-90.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 01:58:35 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:58:37 -!- bobf_ is now known as bobf 02:01:34 verendus [n=brendan@12.49.39.16] has joined #lisp 02:02:52 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-120.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:04:02 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-11-185.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:05:38 Anyway, the basic idea is fairly straightforward, and I have a somewhat screwy example in lh-guid (screwy because I wanted to pass-by-reference automatically, but have to delay the conversion when dealing with output parameters, etc. and so on). 02:06:14 When I do HWNDs or COM objects, it'll be a touch cleaner. 02:10:48 nyef_ [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:48 -!- nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:11:00 -!- nyef_ is now known as nyef 02:11:05 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 02:11:12 does anybody know if hrack, vrack, & top-level-sheet panes always get filled completely by children? 02:11:16 Stupid bloody hotel internet. :-/ 02:11:19 (in mcclim) 02:12:25 is there any reason i shouldn't be using clisp to learn lisp? 02:12:55 no 02:13:12 koaftder: There are a number of them, but they mostly apply later in the game. 02:13:42 some friends were telling me that sbcl had more support and some other things, but i can not get it to compile on my computer 02:14:00 I personally find clisp unusable over time, due to the way it discards parameter names in lambda lists. 02:14:01 but i'm using clisp and that's working fine right now 02:14:17 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:14:21 You can't compile it? On what sort of system? 02:14:37 clisp is very good for learning lisp 02:14:41 ubuntu on a 350MHz g3 power mac 02:14:45 (And you're aware that you need a running lisp (preferably SBCL, and certainly not CLISP) in order to compile, right?) 02:15:13 yes, i got clisp for that reason 02:15:44 i see no reason to fud around with compiling sbcl if you are just learning 02:15:56 linux ppc binary for sbcl didn't work 02:16:04 oh well 02:16:27 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:16:42 only been playing with this for two days 02:16:51 lisp is pretty easy to learn 02:16:54 or so it seems 02:17:03 the syntax is easy anyway :-) 02:17:06 -!- phf [n=phf@c-98-231-211-226.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:17:07 and difficult to master :) 02:17:09 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has joined #lisp 02:17:47 *nyef* still hasn't mastered Lisp, and is quite shocked at how much time he's been using it every time he notices. 02:18:27 i figured i'd take a stab at it, see what concepts i havn't been exposed to in other languages 02:19:00 the prefix notation was really easy to adapt to, but thats probably because ive spent a lot of time with forth, so it's not totally alien 02:19:17 Mmm... Forth... 02:19:31 the lisp is easier to read than forth 02:19:35 I have been working in lisp for over a decade and still haven't had to use a compiler macro 02:19:43 tcoppi [n=nuclear@57c3ed63-1294-45bd-a8e8-cdcc07cfa16f.static.grokthis.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:43 and i found that supprising 02:19:58 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-1.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:58 <_3b> well, compilers can ignore them, so you never /have/ to use one :) 02:20:15 good point 02:20:23 manic12_: Really? I've written a compiler macro. 02:20:27 honesly idk what mastering lisp would comprise 02:20:28 as well as type specifiers 02:20:44 (-A- compiler macro. Not more than that yet.) 02:21:07 nyef: deftransforms count as more than one compiler-macro each ;) 02:21:10 I see them in maxima code 02:21:29 pkhuong: I'm not sure I've written a deftransform, though... Have I? 02:21:51 Don't think I have, really. 02:22:05 I mostly just defknown and then define-vop with a :translate. 02:22:06 <_3b> i've implemented compiler macros, does that count? 02:22:58 *stassats* goes to write a compiler macro 02:23:59 So, here's something that annoys me about SB-ALIEN: You can have a couple inlined functions, one of which returns an alien-value and the other of which takes one as an argument. You can hold that alien-value in a LET without problem. But if you use the variable holding the alien-value more than once, SBCL bitches about having to box it. 02:25:02 I believe there's a magic unbox/box transform. That's not applicable if the value is used more than once. 02:25:39 I can kindof see -why-, but at the same time it's a bloody pointer, and if LET transformed to wITH-ALIEN :LOCAL at that point it'd all be good. 02:25:59 -!- yasuto [n=yasuto@pon100-117.kcn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:26:03 -!- legumbre` is now known as legumbre 02:26:32 And we'll leave the hideous cost of WITH-ALIEN due to lack of smarter unwind info for another time. 02:26:33 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E44445.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:37 *manic12_* should step away from mcclim 02:28:18 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.137.1] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:29:18 I don't seem to be able to convert fonts to opengl on the fly, I have only had luck doing them once upon startup of a thread with a window 02:30:38 *nyef* tries to stay away from McCLIM. Something just seems -wrong- there, and it's not anything that can easily be articulated. 02:31:08 actually, I don't know what I can and cannot do because everything is flying everywhere 02:31:24 things work when i just directly code them to 02:31:35 <_3b> nyef: mcclim specifically or clim in general? 02:32:06 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:28 -!- Joreji [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:32:33 yes, nyef, just mcclim? 02:32:58 _3b: McCLIM specifically, although CLIM in general seems a combination of some great ideas and some not-so-great parts that are a bad fit for current UI paradigms and toolkits. 02:33:41 *manic12_* wonders if he should try working with franz clim 02:34:00 I really like ltk. 02:34:05 fwiw 02:34:36 *stassats* has written his first compiler-macro, and it even seems to work 02:34:51 but does it do something useful? 02:35:34 I found CLG to be interesting but under-documented and containing some nasty bugs in the automatic type system introspection. 02:35:43 the whole event system in mcclim is completely redundant in the windows environment 02:35:49 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:36:09 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:20 Yeah, I think I'd rather view CLIM as a source of ideas than an actual specification to implement. 02:36:38 that's what I'm trying to do 02:36:47 but I want to see somethign work 02:37:04 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:37:10 besides just directly coding the win & opengl packages 02:37:57 windowprocs in windows should just generate gestures themselves for the streams 02:38:12 <_3b> manic12_: did you say why you don't use cl-opengl? 02:38:31 i don't want to maintain CFFI on x64 ACL 02:39:03 <_3b> ah, does cffi not support that well? 02:39:29 i have had it working, but i think i was the only one using it on that platform 02:39:51 manic12_: Actually, if you read the CLIM spec closely, I think you'll find that on multi-threaded implementations, all WinAPI calls for windowing functions have to be marshalled to a single theread which contains the event loop. 02:39:55 it's just one more thing I have to load 02:40:52 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:40:57 -!- garslo [n=user@ppp-69-217-237-247.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:41:39 Each frame should have it's own thread and manage it's own events (messages) 02:41:49 (Something like there having to be a single event dispatcher thread, windows being thread-affine to their creating thread with respect to messages, and something silly with respect to display context management.) 02:42:01 Oh, god no! 02:42:12 That way lies madness, or at least BeOS! 02:42:43 the CLIM spec talks about a port-event-queue 02:42:58 which is global to the whole of the CLIM 02:43:27 That, combined with the thread-affine nature of window messages, would do it. 02:44:00 nyef, you're losing me 02:44:36 If there's a single event queue per port, and window messages are delivered per-thread, then there can only be one thread creating windows and listening for messages, otherwise you get more than one event queue. 02:44:39 windows likes to do it that way 02:44:59 No it doesn't. 02:45:04 no no 02:45:08 MS windows maintaines an event queue -per thread-. 02:45:16 that is what i'm saying 02:45:31 windows likes to do it that way 02:45:36 why argue with it 02:45:42 Having a separate thread per toplevel is also madness, though. 02:45:46 and make a cancerous event system 02:46:41 nyef, having a thread per frame is arguable 02:46:48 Having the option of haivng a separate thread per toplevel window is good, but being able to have multiple toplevel windows per thread is also good. 02:46:50 but windows api is not 02:47:03 Yeah, WinAPI is what it is. 02:47:08 right 02:47:24 WinAPI & CLIM event system don't mix 02:47:30 But as soon as you start spending threads like BeOS you start losing badly. 02:48:05 Mirai is kind of like that 02:48:46 and the maintainer has complained about it saying it would be (of course) much better on a lisp machine 02:49:01 Pfft. 02:49:17 If they -made- lisp machines comparable to modern hardware, maybe. 02:49:38 when Allegro switched to native os threads, it made life difficult for them 02:49:57 *hefner* ponders trying to compile GLOS on the macivory, just to laugh at it taking all night to render a frame 02:50:22 Right, it broke co-operative multitasking, which would screw with a lot of synchronization guarantees, customizable schedulers, etc. 02:50:47 yes 02:51:04 If you rely on such broken thread semantics you deserve to lose. 02:51:12 and he said something to the effect that it would be better to go back 02:51:33 Can't go back. Multi-core CPUs forbid it. 02:51:53 with mirai 02:52:44 you can run the renderer on a seperate core and have native lisp threads for the main program 02:54:13 NWorld could have done that, or would if run on a multicore machine 02:55:38 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:23 Okay, I think it's time I signed off for the evening. I should be back tomorrow. 02:58:26 -!- nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 03:00:58 benny [n=benny@i577A1BF5.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:01:19 -!- verendus [n=brendan@12.49.39.16] has quit ["leaving"] 03:04:45 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E44445.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:06:16 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:33 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:12:00 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:15:09 -!- holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:15:24 holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:03 my othello player lost 58 to 6 03:20:42 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-1.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:20:52 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-1.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:31 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:25:35 snippyhollow [n=snippyho@203.160.1.71] has joined #lisp 03:27:54 -!- snippyhollow [n=snippyho@203.160.1.71] has quit [Client Quit] 03:28:11 snippyhollow [n=snippyho@203.160.1.71] has joined #lisp 03:35:25 how are CCL's fasls named on 32-bit platforms? 03:36:22 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:37:24 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 03:39:02 ryan64 [i=ryan@h116.180.78.68.cable.wynd.cablerocket.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:41 -!- ryan64 [i=ryan@h116.180.78.68.cable.wynd.cablerocket.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:42:03 n/m found the file with them listed 03:42:28 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 03:42:51 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 03:46:40 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:48:18 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 03:49:06 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:49:52 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:50:14 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:50:50 -!- yain [n=yain@77.35.234.45] has quit [] 03:51:41 three arguments given to a three-argument function with no special keyword, optional or whatever parameters: 'too few arguments' 03:51:50 four arguments to the same function: 'too many arguments' 03:51:55 seriously, what the hell 03:52:31 <_3b> sure it is the same call causing the errors? (not a call inside the function or a macro or whatever) 03:53:19 yeah, recursive call 03:53:34 what implementation? 03:53:53 there's probably some way to step through lisp code but I don't know it 03:55:34 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:56:30 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 03:56:58 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:57:37 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 03:58:45 (step (myfun 1 2 3)) 03:58:58 raghu [n=user@210.212.50.14] has joined #lisp 04:00:05 you probably want sdraw ppmx and dtrace too 04:00:21 those help in backtracing, stepping etc... 04:00:52 erh, what? 04:02:02 -!- raghu [n=user@210.212.50.14] has left #lisp 04:04:26 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:04:59 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 04:05:13 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 04:07:11 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 04:07:23 google for dtrace.lisp ppmx.lisp sdraw.lisp 04:11:24 -!- wentbackward [n=wentback@n219077065141.netvigator.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:17:13 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:20:02 fax-mach` [n=user@88.238.36.229] has joined #lisp 04:25:12 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.204.98] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:34:36 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-1.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:38:59 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.210.50] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:39:53 envi_laptop2 [n=envi@219.241.46.188] has joined #lisp 04:47:21 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@115.94.144.228] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:48:58 wentbackward [n=wentback@n219077065141.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 04:50:41 -!- envi_laptop2 is now known as envi^laptop 04:52:36 wentbackward pasted "Is this tail recursive?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78397 04:53:45 I'm trying to write a tail-recursive fun to split a list into parts of n length. Normally I'd use a loop, is this way better/worse? 04:54:44 [ignoring the unecessary AND that I spotted] 04:55:27 Also is it possible for a compiler to optimise this easily? 04:55:41 I'm using SBCL in particular 04:57:04 You'll get slightly better code in SBCL if you put the function in a labels and call it. 04:57:19 I don't see why you use PUSH there. 04:57:46 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-1.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:47 koaftder_ [n=koft@adsl-144-163-94.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:19 That pushes the sublist into the overall result 05:01:56 Is it more efficient to use cons than push? 05:09:53 -!- koaftder [n=koft@adsl-150-136-139.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:12:52 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:13:51 i don't think so 05:14:24 push is normally pretty good 05:15:47 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.135.138] has joined #lisp 05:16:40 axl500 [n=axl@client-67-58-252-235.consolidated.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:21 ok, so I finally got drunk enough to have the epiphany "I should learn common lisp!" the other day, now where do I start? 05:19:18 beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-105-122.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:19:28 -!- beach```` is now known as beach 05:21:02 axl500: download clisp, start hacking 05:21:19 or w/e lisp, clisp is just easy... 05:22:01 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@c-24-34-16-25.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:22:16 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-30-169.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 05:22:17 lisp basically doesn't seem to be used all that much anymore 05:22:25 but it's good to know anyway 05:23:10 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ <--- this thing seems like a good introduction 05:23:51 hmm, building clisp now. 05:25:29 tweek__: lol, well, all these "elite" people keep bragging on how it's so much better than C/C++ or python, and paul graham mumbles about it to whoever he can on the web, and I saw this really neat video showing potential -- http://vimeo.com/2502546 05:26:32 from everything i've seen so far, its one of those "you won't believe it till you use it' sorta deals 05:26:54 Generally people who are actually good enough to be called 'elite' generally don't need to brag. 05:27:53 common lisp is a lot of fun. ignore the haters. 05:28:18 I see. Well, I'm coming from very little background in functional languages, so I hope I won't have too much trouble. 05:28:28 it's nothing at all like C 05:28:35 hence why it isn't used for anything 05:28:45 oh, nevermind, I guess Microsoft Bob was done in lisp 05:28:51 except emacs? 05:29:07 and apparently hacker news? 05:30:46 lisp is used for alot of software out there 05:30:58 its used in one of the largest airlines booking systems 05:31:00 etc. 05:31:05 its not as if its not used 05:31:25 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 05:31:47 it is one stone in a rushing river 05:32:35 clisp is built; the prompt runs. what can I type in to give it a brief test? 05:32:52 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 05:32:53 (quit) 05:33:30 well, that command works, seems to interpret successfully. 05:35:36 ...now to start on the gigamonkeys.com tutorial. thanks folks 05:43:18 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 05:44:14 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:54 if you want, I can provide my othello thing just as a simple example 05:51:02 along with some instructions on how to use it 05:51:23 i just started learning lisp.... found allegro express decent to write in... dunno new to programming tho. 05:51:39 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-1.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:51:54 Good morning. 06:05:54 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.135.138] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:13:12 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBB38C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:18:29 H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0DC46.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:32 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:28 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBB38C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:23:31 -!- H4ns2 is now known as H4ns 06:24:33 H4ns2 [n=Hans@p57BBB38C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined 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yay: http://mublag.boinkor.net/post/17094826/More-win 08:50:00 ejs [n=eugen@237-253-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:04 -!- ejs [n=eugen@237-253-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:51:25 can draw multiple series now, and hover to provide nice details. 08:51:56 antifuchs: hover does not do anything for me here 08:51:58 What is that? 08:52:11 let me upload a new screenshot. 08:52:17 H4ns: it's because that's a screenshot (-: 08:52:21 antifuchs: did you make any progress with the ccl threading problem? 08:52:22 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:52:25 antifuchs: ah! :) 08:52:27 no, not yet 08:52:59 -!- mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:52:59 I couldn't easily find out how to hot-patch the relevant stream metods for string-streams 08:53:06 so I gave up and worked on this instead ((-: 08:53:09 antifuchs: rme's hint could have been helpful. i seem to remember that some other problem was related to the new behavior of bt 08:53:25 antifuchs: it might be worthwhile to patch bt and see if that works better. 08:53:30 mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 08:53:42 OH. bordeaux-threads! 08:53:49 /that/ certainly makes sense 08:53:52 antifuchs: ah, the problem i've seen before were pretty printer variables which suddenly started to behave strangely in hunchentoot. 08:54:20 you-guys [n=ben@ppp121-44-92-81.lns10.syd6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:24 antifuchs: someone decided that bt should not bind any specials in new threads, which is not the right thing with ccl i think. 08:54:27 -!- you-guys is now known as squeakyneb 08:54:35 yeah, it isn't 08:54:49 so that is why standard-output goes to the inferior lisp when running HT under slime 08:54:55 it all makes sense now (-: 08:55:01 HAI GUISE!!! What exactly is lisp?? i.e. what is it good for??? 08:55:19 squeakyneb: try wikipedia 08:55:57 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@219.241.46.188] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:56:22 *holycow* gets his trollbait ready 08:56:31 -!- squeakyneb [n=ben@ppp121-44-92-81.lns10.syd6.internode.on.net] has quit ["KTHXBAI"] 08:56:37 heh. so, good thing sellout hangs out here (: 08:57:03 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:57:39 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["leaving"] 08:58:16 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 09:00:53 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:01:39 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 09:02:20 AWESOME. with a patched bordeaux-threads, it works. 09:02:57 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:03:12 I do get connection resets with concurrency at 10 (but no backtrace or core dumps), and at -c 5, it works perfectly. 09:03:52 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:04:33 (at -c 100, it does complete 700 requests, before the first conn reset. not too shabby.) 09:05:27 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 09:07:26 Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:16:06 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:17:44 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:19:09 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 09:19:28 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:36 Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 09:19:58 -!- drakej [n=fred@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has left #lisp 09:22:58 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6C279.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:11 Ragnaroek [i=54a65592@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-35777e2f95921790] has joined #lisp 09:25:07 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F383.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:12 nostoi [n=nostoi@89.Red-83-34-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:53 jho [n=jh@unaffiliated/cene] has joined #lisp 09:38:54 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 09:51:40 chris2 [n=chris@p5B168B58.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:52:26 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-116-62.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:58:24 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@89.Red-83-34-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:03:54 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:05:30 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-134.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:09:34 does anyone know how to tell sbcl to run hidden behind a gui instead of terminal repl 10:09:38 -!- blue_lander [n=lander@24-178-203-115.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:10:11 *_3b* wonders why everyone wants to build sbcl gui apps with no console lately 10:11:22 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:11:27 its not that i want to do it, i just want to learn how to do it 10:11:37 heh, I was about to say 10:12:29 it's the new watchword, like making exes 10:12:31 <_3b> start it from a shortcut set to run minimized is easiest (if you mean windows) 10:12:39 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-105-122.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:12:52 *_3b* assumes other OS don't have that problem 10:15:00 ou est les sbcl gui apps? 10:16:06 hmm, how can i start the console minimized 10:16:13 i'll look for it 10:16:33 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host60-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 10:16:51 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:17:04 <_3b> right click, create shortcut, right click shortcut, properties, look for the option 10:17:08 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:17:29 -!- xyblor [n=nik@69-196-189-64.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["leaving"] 10:17:34 <_3b> or you could try hacking the binary, or write a loader in some other language 10:17:42 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-0-100.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 10:22:56 louzer [i=louzer@eng203216.pc.nus.edu.sg] has joined #lisp 10:24:09 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-114-152.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:24:23 LostMonarch [n=roby@host60-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:26:35 hmm... anyone know of any docs for cl-ncurses? i can't seem to find any... 10:26:37 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 10:27:17 ejs [n=eugen@237-253-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:39 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a65592@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-35777e2f95921790] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 10:28:42 is it CyFy (the new name of CFFI)? 10:32:30 -!- louzer [i=louzer@eng203216.pc.nus.edu.sg] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:37:30 -!- fax-mach` [n=user@88.238.36.229] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:39:30 beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-7-215.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:39:59 louzer [i=louzer@eng203216.pc.nus.edu.sg] has joined #lisp 10:41:06 /set irc_hide_version on 10:41:23 \set irc_hide_version on 10:41:49 -!- louzer [i=louzer@eng203216.pc.nus.edu.sg] has left #lisp 10:42:04 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:42:26 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-116-62.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:43:15 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 10:47:02 louzer: you minx, making me all curious... 10:47:49 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:50:21 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 10:53:37 josemanuel [n=josemanu@210.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:57:02 -!- beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-114-152.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:02:29 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:38 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 11:04:50 deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:17 -!- kuhzoo1 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:14:34 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:22:19 -!- kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:26:56 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 11:27:27 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:28:14 -!- beach``` is now known as beach 11:30:00 so now I'm really wondering why slime doesn't correctly indent macros with &body forms anymore. do I need to include some new contrib? 11:30:44 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-60-35.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:31:29 <_3b> antifuchs: any , or ,@ nearby? those have been confusing indentation for me lately 11:32:03 nope. happens in a regular function. 11:32:07 <_3b> or maybe forgot to compile/load the macro, or wrong package or something? :) 11:32:25 it's in the same package, and the arglist hint displays in the message area 11:32:40 an arglist hint with &body on it, mind 11:34:00 -!- kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:34:06 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:35:01 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-7-215.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:35:04 -!- beach` is now known as beach 11:35:54 _3b: http://mublag.boinkor.net/post/17100018/3b-like-this 11:36:00 http://www.fiveop.de/sameproblem.png <- you mean this? 11:36:09 yes! 11:36:14 fiveop: (-: 11:37:09 my latest slime contrib changelog entry is 2009-03-25. yours? 11:37:24 valvola [n=fabiovio@host161-252-dynamic.22-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:37:30 <_3b> working for me with 09-02-17 11:37:40 2009-03-09 11:38:08 *_3b* uses (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-tramp slime-asdf)) 11:38:38 <_3b> and (setq lisp-simple-loop-indentation 1 lisp-loop-keyword-indentation 6 lisp-loop-forms-indentation 6) 11:38:54 well, 03-09 seems to have brought a slime-indentation-fu change to indent local macros' &body args correctly 11:38:58 I think we have our culprit 11:39:15 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 11:39:55 03-27 has /a/ fix to that, let's see if it fixes our issue as well 11:40:24 nope )-: 11:42:32 -!- valvola [n=fabiovio@host161-252-dynamic.22-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:42:57 I like _3b's loop indentation settings 11:43:12 *_3b* got them from tcr 11:45:13 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:45:14 -!- kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:45:24 i've been having problems with indentation lately also 11:45:39 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:45:47 Ragnaroek [i=54a65592@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-bf40cbd66d5013fb] has joined #lisp 11:45:52 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 11:45:56 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 11:46:47 minion: tell tcr: we seem to be having &body related slime indentation problems: http://mublag.boinkor.net/post/17100018/3b-like-this, http://www.fiveop.de/sameproblem.png 11:46:47 tcr: does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 11:46:54 gnah syntax gnah 11:47:00 minion: tell tcr we seem to be having &body related slime indentation problems: http://mublag.boinkor.net/post/17100018/3b-like-this, http://www.fiveop.de/sameproblem.png 11:47:01 tcr: watch out, you'll make krystof angry 11:47:14 ok, forget it 11:47:31 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:46 i'm not sure i dare mention or report anything on the slime-devel list .. i'll probably get banned if i stick my nose in there again 11:48:50 heh 11:50:39 the annoying thing is, with slime-indentation-fu loaded, it works for macrolets. 11:50:52 (so I guess this is the culprit. I'll report that to the list) 11:51:55 -!- kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:52:38 also, manually running (slime-compute-autodoc) seems to fix things temporarily 11:52:58 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 11:55:44 -!- decaf [n=mkose@81.215.202.193] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:58:57 -!- kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:59:42 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 12:08:31 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-22-53.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:08:54 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-60-35.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:09:01 -!- beach` is now known as beach 12:11:01 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@91.Red-83-36-90.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:11:55 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:14:00 yay, 0 files 12:18:55 fiveop: got a fix. 12:19:22 fiveop: it will break slime-indentation-fu, but top-level macros are more important for me anyway (-: 12:19:58 antifuchs pasted "fix top-level macro indentation on the emacs side" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78400 12:24:13 klausi [n=klausi@port-92-193-122-144.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:28:32 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B4149.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:01 hi i have a question. is there a gui standard that works for most common-lisp implementations? 12:29:18 Joreji [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:45:49 minion: tell klausi about CLIM 12:45:49 klausi: have a look at CLIM: The Common Lisp Interface Manager (CLIM) is a powerful Lisp-based programming interface that provides a layered set of portable facilities for constructing user interfaces. http://www.cliki.net/CLIM 12:46:03 minion: tell klausi about McCLIM 12:46:04 klausi: please look at McCLIM: McCLIM is Mike McDonald's Free and portable implementation of CLIM, the Common Lisp ueber-Graphics Toolkit and a Common Lisp Library. http://www.cliki.net/McCLIM 12:46:53 -!- ejs [n=eugen@237-253-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:49:05 thx 12:49:07 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-111-56.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:49:31 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-22-53.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:49:34 -!- beach` is now known as beach 12:50:16 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:52:50 futuresoon [n=futureso@cpe-68-175-67-66.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:54:02 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:03:07 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.36.229] has joined #lisp 13:04:45 how can i move repl to somewhere like a textbox in gui? 13:05:15 should i change the value of *standart-output* ? 13:05:46 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-48-165.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:07:53 -!- klausi [n=klausi@port-92-193-122-144.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 13:10:42 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-122-144.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:11:32 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:11:55 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:14:52 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-132-231.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:15:48 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 13:19:15 vy pasted "two-lock concurrent queue" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78402 13:19:22 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-94.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 13:20:54 -!- kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:21:16 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 13:23:09 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-111-56.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:27:11 -!- Joreji [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:27:23 -!- beach`` is now known as beach 13:34:28 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-48-165.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:36:30 antifuchs: I know there are problems with slime-indentation-fu, that's why it's not used by slime-fancy 13:37:07 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:39:41 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B4149.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:41:02 Oh even without it? That's strange. 13:44:51 kinnetica [n=kinnetic@pool-96-240-132-176.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:43 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["Off!"] 13:45:55 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-34-253.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:46:29 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-8-241.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:47:34 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-8-241.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:47:47 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-45-25.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:51:35 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-103-205.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:52:11 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.144.45.90] has joined #lisp 13:53:42 -!- kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:11 creddy_ [n=leaky@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 14:01:36 mxb [n=mxb@bealbywm.plus.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:47 -!- creddy [n=industri@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:01:47 -!- creddy_ is now known as creddy 14:03:22 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:09 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 14:06:25 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-132-231.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:09:48 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.109] has joined #lisp 14:15:37 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-24-242.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:16:21 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:17:05 'morning 14:17:41 morning 14:18:12 i don't get the product of a magma and a set as a magma 14:18:28 it returns a set 14:18:47 again in clisp 14:18:48 -!- Foofie is now known as Fufie 14:19:43 will test it now with another implementatin like lispworks, or sbcl or cmucl 14:20:12 to see if it's a implementatin dependent behaviour or the method definitions lack something 14:21:17 vy: that looks interesting. what are you doing with it? 14:22:31 -!- creddy [n=leaky@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:24:10 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:26:00 creddy [n=rangle@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 14:27:21 anyone's using lpp ? 14:29:03 tombom [n=tombomp@82.25.194.93] has joined #lisp 14:40:11 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:40:11 -!- kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:40:37 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 14:40:53 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.36.229] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:55:17 tcr: yeah, it happens without slime-i-fu, too 14:55:33 i had a quick newbie slime + sbcl configuration question 14:55:35 it's how I noticed... far be it from me to enable experimental slime features 9-: 14:55:41 kinnetica: go ahead (: 14:55:52 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:53 if we know the answer, we'll give it to you (: 14:56:08 for some reason after i configured both on my new mac, i get "*" as the repl prompt, rather than CL-USER 14:56:12 is that normal? 14:56:29 kinnetica: if you're running sbcl on the cmd line, it is 14:56:34 LiamH [n=nobody@68.239.77.4] has joined #lisp 14:56:35 it comes as naked as possible (: 14:56:37 im running it through slime 14:56:38 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 14:56:40 M-x slime in emacs 14:56:44 Newer versions of slime are configured differently. 14:57:03 ah, hm. how do you initialize slime? are you using slime-fancy? 14:57:19 i just open up emacs and do M-x slime 14:57:29 after putting in the four lines or so into my .emacs 14:57:35 You can add/modify (slime-setup '(slime-repl)) or (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) after (require 'slime) 14:57:58 let me try that 14:58:04 for some reason, the slime repl has been made an optional module that you have to explicitly enable. 14:58:58 slime-repl did it 14:59:05 thanks a lot 14:59:12 Fade: the reason is that you can quite happily use slime without the repl 14:59:16 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 14:59:25 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:25 hmm, maybe it's time to rename slime-fancy to slime-useful, then (-: 15:01:54 what is the difference between slime-fancy and slime-repl 15:02:14 slime-fancy will enable additional features that you'll likely find useful 15:02:39 can you give me an example? 15:03:00 Extended arglist display 15:03:02 more featureful inspector 15:04:02 thanks 15:04:48 -!- prip [n=_prip@host39-196-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:07:19 antifuchs: So your time for lisp hacking has increased significantly? 15:07:28 yes, it has 15:07:50 and I'm hacking on autobench, too - keeping in mind what we talked about (: 15:08:23 Very nice. My last exam will be next thursday. It's also very likely that I'll attend ELS in Milan. 15:08:23 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:08:40 -!- futuresoon [n=futureso@cpe-68-175-67-66.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:08:43 argh, I'd love to come to ELS, but most likely, can't 15:08:49 You and your unfairly cheap international transportation. 15:08:52 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 15:09:11 I'd be a fool not to come to ECLM in autumn, though (: 15:09:14 pkhuong: come to europe! 15:09:20 where is it? 15:09:27 I think it's hamburg this time 15:09:32 tcr: hamburg 15:09:46 -!- kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:09:48 lovely 15:10:12 indeed (: 15:10:25 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 15:13:56 -!- frodef [n=ffj@24.80-203-67.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:15:27 -!- kinnetica [n=kinnetic@pool-96-240-132-176.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 15:18:20 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:20:30 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:22:04 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:25:07 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:29:01 anyway, tcr, do you have an idea why setting the slime-indent only if the current slime-indent is equal to the cl-indent would fix things? 15:35:16 15:35:25 Go Me 15:36:09 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@adsl-89-134-0-100.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 15:36:27 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@adsl-89-134-0-100.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:38:30 -!- kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:32 vasek [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 15:39:20 -!- vasek [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit [Client Quit] 15:40:40 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 15:42:41 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 15:43:05 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 15:46:01 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B4149.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:12 nowl [n=nowl@c-66-30-79-27.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:54 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-102-254.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:47:21 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-122-144.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:48:42 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 15:49:04 -!- kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:49:58 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 15:53:47 nyef [n=nyef@vcwl1-61.daktel.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:52 G'morning all. 15:53:55 araujo [n=moz@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:53:57 hi nyef 15:54:18 Krystof: well, that's a... strange issue, in pred.lisp 15:54:22 -!- nowl [n=nowl@c-66-30-79-27.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:55:16 -!- TDT [n=user@191.16.63.69.dyn.southslope.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:55:47 snippyhollow [n=snippyho@203.160.1.71] has joined #lisp 15:56:49 pkhuong: I gave up trying to work out why it did that 15:57:05 -!- snippyhollow [n=snippyho@203.160.1.71] has quit [Client Quit] 15:59:42 TDT [n=user@191.16.63.69.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:49 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:03 pkhuong: but since in any case the code was no longer going to compile without a stack argument, I decided to stop worrying 16:04:33 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:27 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 16:05:39 krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-42-236.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:08:54 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 16:13:40 hm, I wonder who moderates sbcl mailing lists these days 16:14:52 -!- krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-42-236.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:15:09 I'm looking at host-alieneval's define-alien-type-class, and thinking that I need something on the order of (defun alien-type-defstruct-name (class-name) (let ((*package* (symbol-package class-name))) (symbolicate "ALIEN-" class-name "-TYPE"))), but don't know if it should be a separate function or just a flet. 16:15:29 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 16:15:55 Should be alien-type-class-defstruct-name, obviously. 16:19:11 -!- _8david [n=user@pD954229D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:20:32 JAS415 [n=jon@c-24-34-16-25.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:58 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-102-254.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:21:23 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:22:54 -!- kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:23:15 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:56 Hrm... That won't work because type names can be from other packages, such as the CL package. 16:29:14 -!- kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:29:40 rread [n=rread@host-12-172-189-250.nctv.com] has joined #lisp 16:29:56 antifuchs: No, I don't. I may look at it later today. No promise, though. 16:30:05 ok 16:30:52 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:15 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@moa.colgate.edu] has joined #lisp 16:31:57 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [""Nichts mehr.""] 16:32:12 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-187.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:35:27 nyef pasted "Does this look like a good change to sb-alien?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78408 16:36:13 -!- rread [n=rread@host-12-172-189-250.nctv.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:36:23 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 16:36:33 rread [n=rread@host-12-172-189-250.nctv.com] has joined #lisp 16:36:38 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:36:50 -!- kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:37:36 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 16:39:08 emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-13-156.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:40:32 nyef: what's the intent? 16:40:58 To remove the kludge from http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/lh-guid.lisp 16:41:50 As it stands now, if you want to use define-alien-type-class, you have to be in the sb-alien package, due to the way it uses symbolicate to find the defstructs for included classes. 16:43:09 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a65592@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-bf40cbd66d5013fb] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:43:17 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:50 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-142-82.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:44:26 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.144.45.90] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:44:36 And that's basically making the alien type class hierarchy a flat namespace on symbol-name for disambiguation internally instead of taking into account packages. 16:45:44 are the sbcl-provided alien-type-classes named by keywords? 16:45:54 No, they're named by symbols in the various packages. 16:46:09 elderK [n=zk@222-152-98-210.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 16:47:25 Two cases in point: sb-sys:system-area-pointer and common-lisp:integer. 16:47:32 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-226-98.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 16:48:07 Which means that binding *package* to the symbol-package of the class name around the call to symbolicate won't help. 16:48:22 It actually has to be a lookup. 16:49:05 seems reasonable 16:49:17 Oh, and the diff I pasted is untested. 16:49:55 is there a channel dedicated to say clisp cmucl etc ? 16:51:00 Okay, thanks. I didn't want to just commit this without getting feedback first because it's a relatively new area of the system for me. 16:51:21 it's new on me too 16:52:01 but generally reducing the fragility of the system to package names and implicit bindings is good 16:52:16 Indeed. 16:52:31 At some point I'd like to write up some documentation on SB-ALIEN beyond the basics that are in the manual now. 16:53:26 But that'll have to wait for a bit. 16:53:37 sepult: pjb is the one I'd ask about clisp, and rtoy about cmucl 16:54:45 tcr: ok thank you 16:55:28 frodef [n=ffj@24.80-203-67.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:55:31 lichtblau [n=user@pD954229D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:57:53 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:00:25 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-103-205.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 17:02:15 gonzojive [n=red@adsl-75-6-244-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:51 how can I use timers in CL? 17:06:01 Oh good gried. "The specified sysinit file NUL was not found"? That's -still- there? 17:06:07 s/gried/grief/ 17:06:20 rstandy, implementation-dependent extensions only. 17:06:47 Smart1234 [i=Smart123@116.68.96.147] has joined #lisp 17:06:51 rstandy, i.e. read the implementation's manual. 17:07:04 anyone knows alpha beta pruning 17:07:11 not again 17:07:32 deepfire: is there some portable package? 17:07:55 minion: trivial-timeout? 17:07:56 trivial-timeout: The end of the page was reached before a definition was found in http://www.cliki.net/trivial-timeout 17:08:37 Be warned: asynchronous unwinds suck, and can cause various nasty problems. 17:08:50 stassats: thanks :-) 17:08:58 nyef: Like? 17:09:17 my program misses some obvious moves can anyone tell why 17:09:22 tcr: Like the massive FD leaks that minion had a few years ago. 17:09:25 http://www.artworkz.info/Games/checkers.php 17:09:48 What did it do, what does it do now? 17:09:48 Smart1234: please, stop this 17:10:11 (This was directed at nyef.) 17:10:16 ok 17:10:29 Here's something else that sucks: Linux's CFS. I have to set batch scheduling by hand for tasks that pin all 8 cores. 17:10:52 At one point it was leaking a file descriptor every time a cliki lookup timed out. At another point it was leaking a file descriptor on every cliki lookup. 17:11:30 -!- rread [n=rread@host-12-172-189-250.nctv.com] has quit [] 17:11:44 Now, it's fine. But it took a bit of doing to make sure all of the contingencies were covered. And there's still a race condition in there that could leak FDs if the timeout hits within a certain window. 17:13:34 Well, can it be summaries what you had to change essentially? 17:13:45 *summarized 17:14:19 Basically just had to be really careful about what we did with open streams inside of with-timeout. 17:15:42 But, as I said, there's still a race condition in there that could leak FDs, and we'll never get rid of it so long as we're using with-timeout to trigger an unwind. 17:16:02 what's the reason implementation-wise? 17:17:10 rread [n=rread@host-12-172-189-250.nctv.com] has joined #lisp 17:17:17 There's a window of time between the syscall return from obtaining the file descriptor to the stream being stored in the appropriate variable that is checked by the unwind-protect cleanup. 17:17:35 w/o-interrupts? 17:17:57 pkhuong: The entire point is to be able to take an interrupt during the connect process. 17:18:06 ah right (: 17:18:36 The only way to make it not suck is to use some other mechanism for the timeout. 17:18:56 And that boils down to using a non-blocking I/O framework, really. 17:20:52 egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has joined #lisp 17:20:53 -!- rread [n=rread@host-12-172-189-250.nctv.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:21:08 rread [n=rread@12.172.189.250] has joined #lisp 17:21:33 -!- rread [n=rread@12.172.189.250] has quit [Client Quit] 17:22:25 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B4149.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:25:48 Hrm. Genesis. The patch must have been good, then. 17:26:12 non-blocking I/O framework, I thought that's where serve-event comes in :) 17:26:48 Sure, and deadlines these days, but it's running an older SBCL and serve-event is tricky to work with at the best of times. 17:30:10 is asdf worth the headaches and learning curve just for -others- to run things? 17:30:43 tweek__: Who are these "others" and how important are they to you? 17:30:50 -!- Smart1234 [i=Smart123@116.68.96.147] has left #lisp 17:30:59 asdf isn't that hard 17:31:23 ASDF isn't really that hard. Just use :serial t and you'll be fine. 17:31:44 read xach's tutorial 17:31:47 Well, and be careful with recompiling dependencies... 17:33:18 tweek__: it's even worth it just for you to run things 17:33:39 how else, precisely, were you planning to compile and load large multi-file projects? 17:34:29 The traditional way, as espoused in LS&D? 17:34:48 "Put in disk #3" 17:34:57 (Maybe "espoused" isn't the word I want...) 17:35:24 though ITA seems to still be working on their magical mystery ASDF replacement 17:35:35 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host60-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 17:37:20 -!- gonzojive [n=red@adsl-75-6-244-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 17:37:25 I'm not convinced that XCVB will see much use outside of ITA, though. 17:40:16 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:51 yeah, but since ITA are the only users of Lisp at all... 17:42:36 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-82-197.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:42:44 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@moa.colgate.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:43:37 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:43:50 Hrm. I see two problems with the SBCL win32 build experience. One is the userinit / sysinit NUL thing, and the other is that I have to change asdf-module.mk to say CC=gcc-3 instead of CC=gcc. 17:44:24 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:23 depends on what version of gcc you happen to have, surely? 17:46:29 (it requires gcc 3?) 17:46:40 I'm running cygwin. 17:46:51 Apparently gcc there is a shell script or something. 17:47:05 -!- mxb [n=mxb@unaffiliated/mxb] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"] 17:47:08 So it works for the normal build, but can't be invoked from SBCL, which isn't a cygwin app. 17:47:29 gonzojive [n=red@adsl-75-6-244-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:14 -!- maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:55:31 elderK1 [n=zk@122-57-250-5.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:56:34 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 17:59:56 kinnetica [n=kinnetic@208-58-64-106.c3-0.129-ubr4.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:01:59 doxtor [n=doxtor@89-212-248-0.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:44 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 18:03:13 Ragnaroek [i=54a65592@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-42a192386305097a] has joined #lisp 18:03:38 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-226-98.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 18:15:14 hmmm, is it easy to create a client/server application in lisp? Is it easier than in python? I'll have to convince my partner of that haha 18:15:28 -!- elderK [n=zk@222-152-98-210.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:16:11 if you know lisp and don't know python, than it's definitely easier 18:16:18 then 18:19:32 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:25 TomBrend [n=TomBrend@129.10.231.164] has joined #lisp 18:21:29 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 18:24:30 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-164.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 18:24:42 -!- Thas [n=weechat@97-113-27-178.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:26:02 Beket [n=stathis@adsl-255-218.diodos.auth.gr] has joined #lisp 18:26:46 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-164.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:28:00 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.163.226.65] has quit ["Induhvidual Quote: That way I can kill two bricks with one stone."] 18:28:56 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:48 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 18:31:28 -!- kinnetica [n=kinnetic@208-58-64-106.c3-0.129-ubr4.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 18:35:36 -!- stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:35:45 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:35:47 -!- tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 18:36:03 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:07 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:36:34 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:25 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-0-100.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:38:13 tttsssttt [n=pussycat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:13 stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:07 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B168B58.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:39:34 -!- stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:41:28 stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:36 -!- Beket [n=stathis@adsl-255-218.diodos.auth.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:46:10 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@c-24-34-16-25.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:47:44 tombom_ [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 18:49:23 garslo [n=user@ppp-69-217-237-247.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:47 -!- gonzojive [n=red@adsl-75-6-244-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 18:53:08 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:47 has anyone upgraded to Elephant 1.0 yet? 18:58:58 kinnetica [n=kinnetic@208-58-64-106.c3-0.129-ubr4.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:59:42 mega1 [n=mega@3e70dcd6.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 19:04:23 ... Someone, somewhere, will eventually make a persistence framework called "mouse-on-vacation". 19:05:08 -!- tombom [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:05:08 -!- tombom_ is now known as tombom 19:05:19 hello nyef 19:05:24 Hello mega1. 19:05:50 I got the ocfp/ra swap and the frame bias patches working 19:05:59 Cool. 19:06:01 and fixed the regressions. 19:06:06 Even better. 19:06:40 The swap shouldn't have been hard, it was the frame bias that was giving me fits. 19:06:56 however, the frame bias one is a slight performance hit 19:06:57 evening 19:06:58 I'm not convinced that push/ret is much better than jmp. Have you run some quick tests? 19:07:18 pkhuong: I have seen no difference. 19:07:29 seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 19:07:52 pkhuong: It's mostly for the sake of branch prediction. 19:08:14 nyef: yeah, but does it actually pay off? 19:08:21 That I couldn't tell you. 19:08:57 Does the pushed address actually correspond to the one CALL pushed on the stack? 19:09:55 nyef, have you done any work on x64 SBCL? (sorry if I'm butting in) 19:09:56 If it's a push [EBP+RA-SLOT-OFFSET], then yes. 19:10:12 manic12_: win/x64, I assume? 19:10:17 yes 19:10:25 manic12_: Windows? Not more than looking at the exception handling stuff skeptically. 19:10:34 ah 19:10:44 I -still- don't have an x64 system. 19:10:53 That probably deserves a microbenchmark then ;) Might be an interesting hack on top of cheney/MTA. 19:11:29 in my current tree there is exactly one case of push/ret: the mv return with 3+ values 19:11:30 nyef: well get one! 19:11:43 manic12_: I have enough else to do right now, so... no. 19:11:54 Besides, I don't have the free disk space. 19:11:55 yeah, me 2 19:12:26 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a65592@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-42a192386305097a] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 19:12:32 out of interest, does any of you have an x86 sbcl that you could try to replicate my scary print-object test case? 19:12:44 mega1: 3+ and not >3? 19:12:46 or have you already tried and found that I'm the only one this affects? 19:13:12 nyef: 3+ is >3 for me 19:13:24 that is, mv return with more than 3 values 19:13:25 Ah, okay. 19:13:37 I parsed 3+ as >2. 19:13:55 And yeah, that makes sense, as it's n-register-args. 19:13:55 sorry, it was ambiguous 19:14:01 yes 19:14:07 register-arg-count 19:14:26 Yeah, that thing. 19:14:56 anyway, so, solid backtraces? 19:15:24 I killed the heuristics and it seems to work still. 19:15:26 Krystof: This is the print.impure.lisp failure thing? 19:15:37 very nice 19:15:59 I worry about that 1% though. 19:16:04 Really, you could get accurate backtraces without the frame layout fix if you fixed the heuristics to not be stupidly wrong. 19:16:28 nyef: yes 19:16:36 I kind of want confirmation that I am not mad 19:16:48 I have spent some time trying to claw that back and I did but all the optimizations can be applied to HEAD so it's cheating. 19:17:50 Krystof: you are not, I think. At some point I saw similar symptoms, but when I ironed out bugs in that patch that went away. 19:17:59 Reproduced on 1.0.27.6/win32. 19:18:11 Krystof: I get this error too 19:18:18 *phew* 19:18:28 thanks 19:18:45 (Well, 1.0.27.5 + the changes that became 1.0.27.6 but without the version number bump.) 19:19:07 mega1: 1% doesn't really worry me. What are you testing on? 19:19:13 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 19:19:37 pkhuong: p4, as it's less wiggly than the core duo 19:20:25 is the tree available somewhere? I could run your benchmarks on an opteron. 19:21:22 Krystof: same here 19:22:20 pkhuong: http://quotenil.com/git/?p=sbcl.git;a=shortlog;h=x86-calling-convention 19:22:46 thanks. I couldn't quite believe that I was seeing what I was seeing, and until the bisection made it mildly clear I couldn't even enviseage how the bug could be happening 19:23:15 so, now someone (yeah, I know, muggins here) needs to understand PCL caches again :( 19:24:02 points of interest: "return-multiple refactoring" (just before the fp bias changes), "fix fp bias ...", and HEAD 19:24:25 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-24-242.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:25:36 mega1: and how do you get your 1% slowdown? 19:28:26 by averaging cl-bench result changes 19:28:37 I can give you the code. 19:30:39 mega1 pasted "cl-bench util" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78410 19:31:11 mxb [n=mxb@bealbywm.plus.com] has joined #lisp 19:32:16 mega1: Nice work. Just finished reading through the changes in that git tree. 19:32:44 here, the stuff in comments reads all result files from a directory, averages the results for each version, and computes the averages change in the result for test cases whose run-time is >0.2s 19:34:01 nyef: there will be some history rewriting and I still want to do something about performance regression, although it's down to about 0.5% in the end. 19:35:31 tritchey [n=tritchey@12.187.234.2] has joined #lisp 19:36:08 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@12.187.234.40] has joined #lisp 19:39:29 I occasionally think about really restructuring the calling convention so that it's producing functions that take an argument count and pointer to the arguments as the two parameters. Still leaves the question of m-v return storage, but could be an interesting experiment. 19:39:39 has anyone done a decent non-microbenchmark for cl? 19:40:05 rsynnott: Macrobenchmarks are called "applications". 19:40:36 -!- kinnetica [n=kinnetic@208-58-64-106.c3-0.129-ubr4.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 19:41:28 how to test all the features my current sbcl has? 19:42:00 nyef: what's the goal? 19:42:08 mega1: I'm not sure, really. 19:42:37 Oh, right. Callee-allocated frames! 19:42:43 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 19:42:46 I wanted to go further towards callee allocated frames, too. 19:43:24 tail calls hurt 19:44:00 Thing is, in order to be able to refer to the arguments via an SB, you need a fixed register for the arg pointer, which is something that we can ill afford. 19:45:01 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCBA78.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:27 "refer to arguments via an SB"? 19:45:30 what does that mean? 19:46:31 You know how arguments in the stack frame are actually encoded as a memory reference relative to EBP? 19:46:41 The stack is the SB in that case. 19:47:00 yes 19:47:09 Basically, if we want arg TNs, we have to spend a register for an arg pointer. 19:47:20 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 19:47:44 *nyef* sighs. 19:47:46 you still want to keep edx, edi, esi for the first 3 args? 19:48:03 No, all functions will have two args at the machine level. 19:48:36 Makes scaring up a GPR for the TLS block on Win32 easier, too. 19:49:04 Although, given ccl/win32, maybe their solution would work. I just find it a bit... unsettling. 19:50:51 (They found an API by which they can allocate a segment selector. But if it's done more than once in an address space you could end up with fighting over the ES or GS segment... And if it's the ES segment it'll kill string operations. And ISTR something about GS being used as a fast-path for some DirectX junk.) 19:51:12 FS is out because it's the TIB, CS is out for obvious reasons, as is DS. 19:51:47 milanj [n=milan@93.86.189.202] has joined #lisp 19:53:55 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:54:50 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@12.187.234.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:55:20 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-226-98.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 19:56:07 in CL, is there an eval function or something? 19:56:12 sure, EVAL. 19:56:30 oh it needs caps? 19:56:31 -!- elderK1 [n=zk@122-57-250-5.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 19:56:33 no. 19:56:47 (eval '(* 6 7)) 19:59:08 -!- tweek__ [n=tweek@host-5-159-107-208.midco.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:00:01 eval evaluates the form, but then again, you might be looking for funcall or apply: (FUNCALL function arg0 arg1 ...) (APPLY function '(arg0 arg1 ...)) 20:00:38 Okay, if I'm using a type-translator for HWNDs I have to fold my UI layer into my basic bindings, which invalidates my present notion of project structure... :-/ 20:01:00 *antifuchs* tries to figure out how to get revision IDs from version.lisp-expr content strings. this will not be easy. 20:02:39 nyef: 2^31 - 1 and 2^61 - 1 are both primes. Just right for easy modular multiplication with positive fixnums :) God loves Python's tagging scheme! 20:02:50 ah, actually, turns out it will. 20:08:29 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:10:34 nyef: where would those args actually live? 20:11:18 benny` [n=benny@i577A2439.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:12:32 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:12:44 does anyone here use able? 20:12:53 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:13:51 mega1: In consecutive spaces on the stack, of course! 20:14:20 *hefner* doesn't get it 20:14:48 nyef: after the ra/ocfp stuff? 20:14:55 No, before. 20:15:03 Not part of the callee-allocated frame. 20:15:15 tail calls 20:15:23 We have the arg pointer. 20:15:33 Overwrite the original argument array. 20:15:46 and relocate the current frame? 20:15:57 If necessary, yes. 20:16:00 (if the arg list is longer 20:16:00 ) 20:17:07 I see. This could work with the current scheme, I think. 20:17:11 Or we could try something amusing like having separate control and data stacks. 20:17:49 You'd have to do something about the assumption that all call and return args are stored in the callee stack frame in fixed locations. 20:19:31 and finally, you'd have a forth embedded in SBCL booting via your forth ;) 20:19:32 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 20:20:06 Of course. How else would I cross-compile the boot environment? :-P 20:21:22 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47B5D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:56 *Krystof* tries to understand pkhuong's "primes" comment, fails, goes to bed instead 20:22:40 Krystof: code snippet for universal hashing coming up in the next couple days. 20:23:13 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1BF5.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:24:24 aha. Isn't most-positive-fixnum 2^29-1 and 2^60-1; dunno about the former but the latter is definitely not prime 20:26:03 Might be a different python? The values mentioned were 2^31-1 and 2^61-1. 20:26:30 that is one of the things confusing me 20:26:33 Krystof: nope, but it means we can use sb-bignum:%multiply-and-add for (a*x + b) = r (mod p), with x a fixnum. 20:26:57 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:27:38 does CL have a multiline comment 20:27:44 jimi_hendrix: yes, #| |# 20:27:46 ok 20:28:29 -!- Ppjet6 [n=ppjet@ivr94-11-88-187-39-7.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:28:29 pkhuong: hm, I think I've seen this trick before, in a multiplication by 2^32-5 20:28:55 The trick seems fairly well known, at least in the PRNG crowd. 20:29:04 -!- mxb [n=mxb@unaffiliated/mxb] has quit ["zzzz"] 20:29:23 I'm not remembering the details 20:30:08 by the way, does "Optimization for square of bignums" on sbcl-devel lead somewhere? 20:30:13 r = h*2^31 + l eqv h+l (mod 2^31) - 1 (2^31 eqv 1 (mod 2^31 - 1)) 20:30:38 *(mod 2^31 - 1) 20:31:38 and because x is a fixnum, h+l is guaranteed to be narrow enough that it needs at most 1 subtraction to normalize in [0, 2^31 - 1). 20:31:53 this does sound exactly like the trick I have implemented 20:33:00 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-24-242.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:33:16 http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~indyk/nips-nn.ps # page 8 (or 62, or 76) 20:33:37 francogrex [n=franco@91.177.29.179] has joined #lisp 20:34:08 *Krystof* definitely goes to bed 20:34:22 Krystof: Sleep well. 20:34:47 Krystof: good night. 20:35:16 Hi, can anyone point me to an online example of using FFI in sbcl to import C functions? (if possible) 20:35:40 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 20:36:09 sure, the sb-posix code in sbcl itself. 20:36:34 : it's in the sbcl folder? 20:36:52 i see it ok 20:37:49 but i see no documentation there 20:37:59 You wanted examples. 20:38:11 You can read the manual for documentation. 20:39:25 ok; I thought I woulkd get a starter example like a simple hello world or something to start with 20:42:37 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47B5D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:43:55 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:44:08 why doesnt the following work right? 20:44:09 (defun input (&optional msg) 20:44:09 (if (EQL msg nil) (setf msg "")) 20:44:09 (format t "~A" msg) 20:44:09 (read)) 20:44:39 It prints after getting input, and returns what the user inputted in all caps 20:44:39 what do you mean by not working right? 20:44:55 call force-output, or add a ~% at the end of the format string 20:45:11 (for the first part) 20:45:53 READ reads a lisp expression, not a string. have a look at READ-LINE 20:45:59 (for the second part) 20:47:11 ejs [n=eugen@8-153-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:12 Thanks! 20:47:32 I am very new to lisp, so thanks for helping me 20:47:34 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has left #lisp 20:48:30 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.177.29.179] has left #lisp 20:48:45 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:49:27 kinnetica [n=kinnetic@208-58-64-106.c3-0.129-ubr4.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:50:50 -!- ejs [n=eugen@8-153-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:52:09 slacks21 [n=ckuttruf@ip68-101-220-87.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:50 hey everyone. I'm wondering if someone could paste a good link with performance comparison between common lisp and other languages such as C, java, etc. 20:53:21 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:53:21 I'm going through the PCL tutorial from Seibel, and really enjoying it, but I'm just curious about efficiency compared to other languages 20:53:36 Performance measured in programmer-hours to develop equivalent functionality, right? 20:53:59 performance as in runtime performance 20:54:07 slacks21, http://www.timestretch.com/FractalBenchmark.html 20:54:16 *nyef* shakes his head. 20:54:23 thanks 20:54:24 lol 20:54:37 Who -cares- about runtime performance? As long as it's not completely awful moore's law takes care of it. 20:54:40 i just googled it :) 20:54:49 +1 20:54:52 oh wow... that's not nearly as bad as I thought 20:55:05 I kept hearing some ridiculous figures on sites that I googled initially 20:55:08 (And yes, I know that's not true, but it's close enough to true for most purposes.) 20:55:33 is sbcl generally preferred as an implementation? 20:55:52 *shrugs* I use it... 20:56:00 in #lisp, in general, yes 20:56:04 By some people, yes. Others swear by ccl, acl, cmucl, etc. A few lost souls even use clisp. 20:56:06 currently using clisp, but don't have any compelling reason other than it was what was packaged with my distro 20:56:15 lol 20:56:20 *hangs head in shame 20:56:22 i'm a lost soul 20:56:27 *josemanuel* cries 20:56:39 The advantage of SBCL is that its integration in Slime is very good. 20:56:47 howso? 20:56:51 I'm using slime 20:56:53 Yeah, don't worry about it. I just bash clisp because I find it unusable. 20:56:55 but didn't notice a diff. 20:57:02 -!- benny` is now known as benny 20:57:14 The main problem I have with clisp and slime is the completely useless arglist hinting. 20:57:26 slacks21: The people who develop SBCL also use Slime. the same is not true for most other implementations. 20:57:33 gotcha 20:58:11 I mean, really, knowing that READ takes (arg0 &optional arg1 arg2 arg3) isn't quite useful, you know? 20:58:29 (Or whatever the actual signature is.) 20:59:06 sorry, newbish question. what's the best way to lookup documentation for functions, macros, etc. 20:59:16 C-h f,v only goes so far in emacs 20:59:23 is it (documentation ...? 20:59:34 C-c C-d C-h 20:59:40 C-c C-d C-h or C-c C-d C-d might help. 20:59:59 erm, is there one that isnt emacs specific 21:00:04 hmm, do you have some custom bindings.. cause C-c C-d just closed my lisp session 21:00:06 It kindof varies based on what documentation you're looking for. 21:00:22 i meant C-c C-d h 21:00:39 Process inferior-lisp finished 21:00:45 Then must have been C-c C-d d and C-c C-d h for my examples. 21:00:46 Is there a docs lookup thats not emacs specific? 21:00:50 C-d is end of file, no? 21:00:53 you aren't using repl, are you? 21:00:56 bgs100: Well, there's DESCRIBE and DOCUMENTATION. 21:01:00 no no.. using slime 21:01:08 nyef, thx, I dont use emacs 21:01:09 well, slime has repl too 21:01:18 bgs100: Or there might be something specific to whatever editor integration you -are- using. 21:01:19 ohhh... 21:01:23 sorry, I'm dumb 21:01:23 put (slime-setup '(slime-repl)) to .emacs 21:01:28 yes, I was entering that in the repl 21:01:39 (And if you aren't using an editor integration, start. Really.) 21:02:11 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-164.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:02:19 or start using emacs 21:03:08 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit ["brb"] 21:03:11 Yes, even without an integration such as SLIME or ilisp, emacs can be very helpful for lisp editing. 21:03:20 erm, would it be a bad idea to yell "vim forever!" here? 21:03:33 yeah, emacs is one of the reasons I initially got interested in lisp 21:03:33 (And one of these days I need to install paredit and try redshank.) 21:04:01 bgs100: it would 21:04:06 bgs100: I hear there is a rogue sect of vim-using lispers who might have some sort of integration, but I don't know the details. 21:04:08 bgs100: Vim is vastly inferior when it comes down to Lisp editing. 21:04:43 tcr, yes, but i dont like something where it takes a double key combo just to exit 21:04:48 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 21:05:00 I bet Slime makes you an order of magnitude more productive. 21:05:05 I really don't get it. I'm a CE major at ucsd, and all my profs and TAs use vim. Seriously, it's just not at all as capable an editor 21:05:05 ... :q! isn't a -triple- key combo? 21:05:25 what is the argument for using it... other than being accustomed to it, or easier to learn initially 21:05:25 nyef, yes but you dont have to do it at the same time 21:05:29 which really isn't an argument 21:06:13 Becuase I dont like double-to-triple key combos 21:06:22 :P 21:06:23 Umm... C-x C-c is one bucky-key transition. :q! is two (colon and exclamation are both shifted). 21:06:37 ? 21:07:10 I would rather have a key-chord than have to switch between command and insert mode all the time 21:07:17 bgs100, why did you bring up vim vs emacs in a lisp channel 21:07:18 bgs100: well, you don't usually exit emacs 21:07:21 lol 21:07:36 stassats`, if my OS is up, an editor is open :) 21:07:43 exactly. same 21:07:57 Anyway, if vim floats your boat, feel free to run with it. Just... be aware that most of us use emacs, and our tool recommendations are tuned to that sensibility. 21:08:20 Snova [n=Snova@unaffiliated/snova] has joined #lisp 21:08:22 And likewise, most of the tool development is predicated on emacs if it's predicated on any specific editor. 21:08:35 *jimi_hendrix* uses vim...except for lisp 21:08:47 You could also take advise from people who did switch from vim to Emacs (after 10years experience in vim), and would never look back. 21:08:50 but since i dont like to learn all of those cramp inducing key combos i use able 21:09:02 noooo use vim 21:09:12 tic, do you use vim for lisp 21:09:28 jimi_hendrix, yeah. I'm the author of Limp, the sad excuse for a Lisp IDE in Vim. :-) 21:09:38 lol 21:09:40 *stassats`* switched from vim to emacs after only 1 year 21:09:41 But I've hit its limits, alas. 21:09:41 tic just want poor souls to play guinea pigs 21:09:50 I want to suck their blood. 21:10:09 anyway 21:10:12 real programmers use ed 21:10:13 No, realistically, it's probably about improving on vimpulse, or making a proper Vim front-end to Climacs. 21:10:14 but yeah, check out Limp, and try to improve it. 21:10:35 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 21:10:36 tcr, problem is you can't improve it very much. you still need to program most of it in VimScript. which is a major meh. 21:10:46 jimi_hendrix: i use ed when i don't want to start emacs 21:10:46 -!- TomBrend [n=TomBrend@129.10.231.164] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:11:03 ^^ which is why i like vim 21:11:10 its not a pain to start :) 21:11:11 jimi_hendrix, http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2219 21:11:19 tic: I don't see sense in your reluctance wrt emacs then. 21:11:21 ....I guess Ill give emacs one more try 21:11:22 emacsclient. 21:11:25 jimi_hendrix: which is why i like ed :) 21:11:35 stassats`, touché 21:11:45 vim is bloated 21:11:53 lol 21:12:11 ed is bloated 21:12:11 tcr, key bindings. I hate the emacs ones, I love the vim ones. 21:12:26 *nyef* loves customizable keybindings. 21:12:31 tcr, but there's also some impedance mismatch between things like buffers, frames and such. 21:12:32 a steady hand and a magnetic needle are bloated 21:13:01 ShadowChild [n=lukjad00@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 21:13:01 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-70.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:13:07 M-x butterfly is the way to go 21:13:27 Nano FTW! 21:13:38 *ShadowChild* leaves quickly. 21:14:07 is there a way to have syntax highlighting in repl-mode? 21:14:13 -!- ShadowChild [n=lukjad00@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has left #lisp 21:14:29 If you want syntax-highlighting in repl-mode you're doing too much in repl-mode. 21:14:32 :butterflies 21:14:33 slacks21: If you want it, you're doing it wrong. 21:14:45 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 21:14:54 lol 21:15:06 point taken 21:15:21 hmm 21:15:23 this is annoying 21:15:58 jao [n=jao@126.Red-83-33-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:01 i am making a blackjack game and i cant find out why this make-deck function is inifinte looping... 21:16:05 slacks21: But from a technical point, yes it would be possible, but I don't know how good the solution would be. 21:16:12 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:16:17 jimi_hendrix, tried tracing it? 21:16:28 jimi_hendrix: Interrupt it and look at the backtrace for a start 21:16:39 i am a lisp noob...go easy: http://pastebin.com/m49ca985 21:16:46 tic, uhh how do i do that in able 21:16:50 -!- Snova [n=Snova@unaffiliated/snova] has left #lisp 21:16:50 bobf_ [n=bob@host86-154-146-179.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:16:51 tcr, ^^ 21:17:05 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:17:08 -!- bobf_ is now known as bobf 21:17:37 Don't use recursion as a substitute for iteration 21:18:14 two issues: your first if closes too early, and you never stop (tail-, once you fix the first problem) recursing. 21:18:32 jimi_hendrix: Please, use lisppaste for lisp stuff in future. 21:18:36 ok 21:18:39 nyef, why? 21:18:52 OMG EMACS IS ^& MB 21:18:54 cause it's made with awesomeness 21:18:55 67* 21:19:13 bgs100: here's a penny, get a real HD. 21:19:16 It announces the paste in-channel for you. It has better syntax highlighting, it actually links to relevant hyperspec pages, etc. 21:19:41 pkhuong: Might be complaining about the bandwidth required to download. 21:19:59 pkhuong, I have 160 GB, i was just freaked out because it was a ton more mb than vim 21:20:01 *nyef* is hoping to get a real HD in a few weeks. This 120 gig stuff just doesn't cut it. 21:20:09 and I have good internet 21:20:12 :D 21:20:21 bgs100: it also can do at least one order of magnitude more ;) 21:20:38 How do you run terminal emacs? Its starting GUI 21:20:42 emacs -nw 21:20:44 Hun: Have you considered going to ELS in Milan? 21:21:04 who in here uses emacs in terminal? 21:21:09 tcr: i have. it's pretty far from here, and i'm writing my diploma thesis 21:21:14 me 21:21:17 when I'm using ssh 21:21:20 maybe i'll go, but i can't say yet 21:21:21 all the time 21:21:23 okay, Im in emacs...... 21:21:26 for work and school 21:21:37 C-h t 21:21:40 there you go 21:21:40 Now what the heck do I do? 21:21:51 Hun: I don't think it's that far. I think I'll go. I just do not know by which means of transportion. 21:22:38 tcr: it's 500km according to gmaps. haven't checked train or plane connections yet 21:22:44 bgs100: Yes, work through the tutorial. And notice that general emacs talk is more appropriate in #emacs than here. 21:22:54 500km ain't that bad, but i've never driven outside of germany :) 21:22:59 Hun: Ah you considered driving yourself? 21:23:02 bgs100: if you're shocked by that, Apple XCode would probably cause you a hear attack :) 21:23:13 *heart 21:23:19 tcr: it's the most flexible way. i always consider that :) 21:23:22 or Vim's runtime. 21:23:30 and if we get 4 people together, it's usually the cheapest 21:23:54 Oh. I have a 160 gig drive, not a 120. Either way, still far too small. 21:24:31 Hun: If you decide to go, you could take me up (not that I'm good as a coordinator, but I'll of course pay my share on your gas bill) 21:24:40 *stassats`* has pirated movies all over the hard disk, so it's always too small 21:24:53 tcr: of course :) 21:25:05 Heh. It's virtual disk images for me, usually. 21:25:20 Well, that and built SBCL trees. 21:25:34 sbcl garden 21:25:44 hamburg 21:25:50 err 21:28:01 stassats`: Topiary, maybe? 21:28:05 tcr: train and flying is around 250-280 for 2 persons right now. would be around 140 with my car. hostel and so on excluded 21:29:18 can i return from inside a (let) 21:29:32 do I have to use those commands for moving around in emacs? 21:29:43 Like C-V 21:29:44 jimi_hendrix: Why wouldn't you be able to? 21:29:45 clhs return 21:29:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_return.htm 21:29:47 bgs100: no. but some help 21:29:59 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:30:11 especially the C-M-[fbudk] are pure awesomeness when working with lisp 21:30:35 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.189.202] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:30:44 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 21:30:53 i thought return-from would be on the same page... 21:31:06 Hun: I'll talk to some people whether they want to join. Also also consider taking with my gf 21:31:18 tcr: cool :) 21:31:40 tcr: i'll ask around, but i don't think some of my folks want to join 21:31:43 stassats`: Nope. r-f is a special form, return is (defmacro return (result) `(return-from nil ,result)). 21:31:48 if you cant return from a let block, what do i do 21:32:26 jimi_hendrix: LET doesn't establish a block, BLOCK does. And all functions have an implicit block that shares the function's name. 21:32:48 (Which reminds me, what happens there with setf-functions?) 21:32:52 nyef, i know that 21:32:52 jimi_hendrix: Why do you want that? 21:33:11 tcr, to avoid the infinite recursion problem in what i pasted earlier 21:33:28 How do you exit the tutorial? 21:33:34 :qa! 21:33:40 You should rewrite it not to use recursion 21:33:55 bgs100: usually with C-x k RET 21:34:05 like everything else :) 21:34:06 so in CL (EQL recursion bad)? 21:34:25 nyef: cadr of (setf foo) 21:34:27 jimi_hendrix: Not necessarily. But it's not something to be used gratuitously. 21:34:31 C-x k 21:34:31 jimi_hendrix: recursion is bad when you don't really know how your algorithm should work (iteration, too) 21:34:33 return 21:34:35 stassats`: That's about what I figured. 21:34:37 jimi_hendrix: You should not use recursion as a substitute for iteration 21:34:58 tcr: you should also not use iteration for recursion :) 21:35:03 If you're going to use recursion, start by establishing your base case. 21:35:33 ok 21:35:40 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:36:00 Yeah, but obtaining a vector of some length containing the integers from 0 to (1- length) in random order? That's clearly an iterative problem. 21:36:09 Hun: Sure, if you're blowing your stack size for example 21:36:36 then you're just shifting the problem around, as you then have to manage the stack yourself 21:37:06 Your heap size may not be as restricted 21:37:10 -!- slacks21 [n=ckuttruf@ip68-101-220-87.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:37:11 but you can use a specialised representation for your continuations 21:37:41 How do you open file, start syntax highlighting, and use lisp in emacs? 21:38:05 loxs [n=loxs@87-126-151-108.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 21:38:06 tcr: i'm currently working on a moving register stack :) that's pure fun, except when you have to work out all the edge-cases 21:38:24 -!- loxs [n=loxs@87-126-151-108.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:38:31 bgs100: C-x C-f, M-x font-lock-mode, M-x ielm-mode 21:38:46 or install slime first and C-x C-f foo.lisp 21:38:47 (though the latter is only elisp, not cl. but it's none-the-less a lisp) 21:39:26 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6C279.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 21:41:38 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:43:12 argh, I cant seem to get into emacs.. 21:43:17 good 21:43:25 xD 21:44:22 *jimi_hendrix* ducks 21:44:40 http://weitz.zenfolio.com/ilc2009/h35a03f04#h35a03f04 21:44:44 I found emacs cumbersome when first I started using it, but I wouldn't really want to do without it now. 21:44:59 lol, I would have guessed it's RMS not Joe Marshall 21:45:30 -!- tombom [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 21:46:30 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0F0D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:32 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70dcd6.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:47:00 excuse the ignorance, but who's joe marshall? 21:48:54 An old MIT hacker. 21:48:55 If I didn't know better, I'd think he might be our local expert on stacks. 21:50:46 ok, sweet. it now does git links and zoomin in on releases. I think that should be all, as far as feature parity with the existing thing goes. 21:51:40 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 21:52:03 the next part will be the hardest, anyway: making a style sheet that looks non-hideous (: 21:52:13 anyway, I sleep now. 21:53:18 (getf (list "pie" 1 "jim" 5 :a 2) "pie") 21:53:26 Why doesnt above return 1? 21:53:43 getf compares elements with EQL 21:53:53 and literal strings are not EQL to each other 21:54:03 wha? 21:54:12 theyre not equal? 21:54:19 they're not EQL 21:54:24 object identity, not content equality 21:54:36 so.......? 21:54:43 what would I do to get 1? 21:55:02 Actually, it's more that literal strings are not -necessarily- EQL to each other. 21:55:09 use symbols instead of strings. 21:55:12 Doesn't GETF take a :TEST argument? 21:55:19 nope 21:55:19 nyef: nope 21:55:24 Hunh. 21:55:37 :/ 21:55:47 use symbols instead of strings? 21:55:49 Ah. place indicator &optional default. 21:55:52 Right. 21:56:01 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-24-242.netcologne.de] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 21:56:07 There no other way? 21:56:07 bgs100: yes 21:56:09 jup, like (getf (list :pie 1 :jim 5 :a 2) :pie) 21:56:10 Symbols would work, or using something other than a plist as storage, such as a hash table. 21:56:25 k 21:56:33 bgs100: or make sure you use the same strings for keys as for retrieving the values. 21:56:37 Or use an alist, as ASSOC does take a :TEST argument. 21:56:40 but that's pretty much what symbol interning is about 21:56:46 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-242.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:56:49 right. or use an alist. (: 21:58:35 btw, I was just bitten by what I thought was this "not necessarily EQL" thing in javascript; turns out I'd done foo = bar = {} instead, stupidly thinking I was in C. 21:59:39 Quick question... I am trying to convert a string to a symbol. If I do (setf test (intern "hi")) it returns |hi|. However, (eq test 'hi) returns nil. It seems that I must do (eq test '|hi|) for it to return T. I need the symbol to be generated without the |. Any thoughts? 21:59:57 devsforev: string-upcase (-: 22:00:00 is it ok to be destructive in CL (i know schemers hate it) 22:00:11 jimi_hendrix: depends on what you destroy (-: 22:00:22 side-effects i mean 22:00:23 as long as it works best that way. 22:00:27 antifuchs: thanks! i'll give that a try and let you know 22:00:29 don't nreverse the symbol-name strings of symbols (-: 22:00:33 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 22:00:56 Don't hack symbol-names at all, for that matter. 22:01:31 Prior to creating the symbol, fine. After that, though, it can be dangerous. 22:01:34 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 22:01:35 or some other things that do not take well to being destructively modified (like any literal (-:) 22:01:56 loxs [n=loxs@87-126-151-108.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 22:02:08 antifuchs: that was exactly what I was looking for. I knew there had to be a simple solution! Thanks again 22:02:22 devsforev: you're welcome (: 22:02:25 Heh. Been there, done that. Introduced a COPY-LIST into the compiler I was writing to prevent the assembler part from mutating one of the code generators. 22:02:58 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0DC46.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:03:35 haha 22:03:41 anyway, this is bedtime. night. 22:03:46 (The code generator was using a backquote to generate the assembly language I was using, and the assembler destructively modified the list it was given to encode the instructions...) 22:03:49 antifuchs: Sleep well. 22:04:53 -!- garslo [n=user@ppp-69-217-237-247.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:06:49 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-154-11-242.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:13 garslo [n=user@ppp-69-217-237-247.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:48 I have a library mailing-list on common-lisp.net, lost control of the administration of it (not sure I ever had it) - nobody uses it but it's got some backlogged spam to it - how do/who do I talk to to acquire control of it? 22:09:24 Modius: admin@common-lisp.net 22:10:23 if i do defvar in a function it defines it globally right 22:10:46 yes 22:11:22 bah 22:11:32 Pretty much any macro that begins with def, you don't want to use except at the toplevel. 22:11:48 jimi_hendrix: you want LET to establish new bindings. 22:18:13 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-0-239.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:18:35 right 22:18:42 *jimi_hendrix* found a way around my problem 22:19:28 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-242.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:21:17 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@moa.colgate.edu] has joined #lisp 22:22:00 GrayMagiker [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:37 -!- quotemstr_ [n=quotemst@cpe-67-246-181-235.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:26:04 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@210.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 22:26:26 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:26:43 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 22:36:20 Hrm... I may have to do some hacking to get things working right for those few functions that take an argument that is either a c-string or an unsigned-short. 22:36:42 Since it doesn't look like there's any real way to describe that type signature to sb-alien as-is. 22:38:33 -!- Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:39:32 -!- kinnetica [n=kinnetic@208-58-64-106.c3-0.129-ubr4.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 22:43:18 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:43:49 -!- _death [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:44:57 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-24-242.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:46:09 _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.137.1] has joined #lisp 22:46:18 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:47:08 -!- deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 22:48:32 gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-129-11.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 22:48:36 _death [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 22:50:34 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-134.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:51:15 -!- gemelen_ is now known as gemelen 22:54:54 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.191.44] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:06:15 -!- kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:06:52 when you pass a var, does it pass a copy of the var, or the actual var (anything done to the var is affected globally or in scope or whatever) 23:07:05 you pass values around, not variables. 23:07:11 bbl 23:07:19 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["DON'T PANIC!"] 23:07:48 ok 23:07:58 what if i want to pass the var 23:08:10 kinda like a const int& in C++ 23:08:16 You can't. 23:08:45 And, IAUI, that's not exactly what C++ does either. 23:08:52 const int& is incredibly pointless. 23:09:54 bah 23:10:01 my C++ is rusty 23:10:09 but basically a pointer 23:10:58 That goes back to the whole "you can't" thing. 23:11:31 right ok 23:12:13 Now, if you have something like a list you can have your function modify that list, and so long as the first cons on the list maintains identity then the calling function will see the resulting change. 23:12:29 But that's not exactly the same thing. 23:12:37 The other thing you can do is a macro. 23:12:44 Err... 23:12:48 Is use a macro. 23:13:08 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 23:13:25 But functions are always call-by-value. 23:13:36 (Even if some values are references.) 23:13:52 hi, is there an easier way to mapcar on an array other than coercing it? ex. (mapcar #'print (coerce (make-array 2 :initial-contents '(1 2)) 'list)) 23:14:05 egn: Have you considered MAP ? 23:14:26 (Although I wouldn't expect that to work on non-vector arrays.) 23:15:40 nyef: ah, no I hadn't 23:16:34 nyef: looks like it does: (map 'list #'print (make-array 2 :initial-contents '(1 2))) 23:16:51 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 23:17:26 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.191.44] has joined #lisp 23:18:23 -!- Spyderco [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has quit [] 23:19:11 -!- Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:19:17 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-22-57-131.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:18 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:19:57 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-24-242.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:20:25 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["leaving"] 23:21:02 if i have a list how would i swap two values in the list 23:21:17 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-24-242.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:21:26 clhs rotatef 23:21:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_rotate.htm 23:22:32 egn: You can also (map nil ...). 23:22:34 Heh. I might have just re-ordered the conses. 23:22:39 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:23:16 pkhuong: ah, k thanks 23:23:39 or mapc 23:24:24 oh, you were talking about arrays, forget it 23:24:56 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F383.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:31:03 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCBA78.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 23:31:34 i need to shuffle a deck, is there an easier way then looping through it a random amount of times with a random amount of rotatef'ing 23:32:15 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:45 yes, google for fisher yates. Or, if you want a quick and dirty solution, something like (mapcar #'cdr (sort #'< (mapcar (lambda (x) (cons x (random 1d0))) list) :key #'car)). 23:34:23 ((lambda (list) (mapcar #'cdr (sort #'< (mapcar (lambda (x) (cons x (random 1d0))) list) :key #'car))) *deck*) 23:34:24 value # is not of the expected type SEQUENCE. 23:34:50 swapped some arguments there. That's what SLIME's for. 23:34:54 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:09 ? 23:38:09 Hunh. Fisher-Yates is essentially the shuffle algorithm that I would have used. 23:38:29 ok 23:38:38 _8david [n=user@pD95405DD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:40:00 how do i get how many elements are in a list 23:40:41 clhs list-length 23:40:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_list_l.htm 23:40:45 ok 23:40:48 really? 23:40:59 clhs length 23:41:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_length.htm 23:41:29 S11001001: it's a complete function on lists, unlike LENGTH. 23:41:35 S11001001: ya rly 23:41:49 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 23:42:14 -!- loxs [n=loxs@87-126-151-108.btc-net.bg] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:43:02 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 23:44:29 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-24-242.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:45:23 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-70.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 23:46:56 pkhuong: not at all, a matter of education, not the function in particular 23:47:30 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-66.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:49:04 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-24-242.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:49:56 i wound't really use list-length 23:50:07 S11001001: do you really feel in the mood for that? 23:50:41 stassats`, what would you use then 23:50:44 not particularly 23:50:45 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-0-239.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:50:52 jimi_hendrix: length 23:51:26 well, really really, length of lists is a bad idea 23:51:34 or, slow idea 23:51:46 what do you advise doing then to get the length 23:52:35 don't get the length at all 23:52:44 I guess I am in the mood after all 23:52:45 or don't use lists 23:55:44 -!- lichtblau [n=user@pD954229D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:59:13 <_Pb> don't use lists? 23:59:24 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:59:42 <_Pb> maybe the car of the list is its length, and you increment it when things are added?