00:00:09 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:13 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.94.146] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:03:45 -!- moocow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:04:37 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:14 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:07:36 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:58 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 00:09:10 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:58 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:16:30 minion, memo for p0a: look at the function video-info. 00:16:30 Remembered. I'll tell p0a when he/she/it next speaks. 00:19:41 -!- LinkFly [n=linkfly@62.140.244.27] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:22:25 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:25:03 do you guys use namespace qualifiers in code like c++ ? or do you just use the whole package ? 00:25:15 depends on the package. 00:25:20 with use-package or :use ? 00:25:53 use-package is seldom used 00:26:03 or rather somepackage:somesymbol or somepackage:somegenericfuntion ? 00:26:26 but how do you manage the global scope then ? 00:26:56 it'd be nice if name-lookup in lisp could be argument-dependent like in C++, but that'd require an awful lot of runtime trickery. :) 00:27:26 no ADL in LISP ? 00:27:28 awww 00:27:52 i thought it's all based on the arguments classess 00:28:21 the mop tells me it is 00:28:30 there's two separate things: 1) finding the generic function based only on the symbol 2) finding the proper method in that generic function to call 00:29:22 Kenan [n=user@88.238.35.244] has joined #lisp 00:29:36 -!- Kenan [n=user@88.238.35.244] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:29:37 you can't define a generic separately in two different packages and have them magically combine 00:29:54 have to read the 1 again then 00:31:15 the notion of deferring which namespace to look a symbol up in until runtime is absurd. 00:31:48 why ? 00:32:06 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:32:18 couldn't you have a packageA:method simply call packageB:method? 00:32:45 I fear this is going off the rails 00:32:53 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:33:03 -!- ryepup1 is now known as ryepup 00:34:56 sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has joined #lisp 00:35:26 -!- sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:36:42 sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has joined #lisp 00:36:45 alec [n=alec@pool-96-233-21-86.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:46 foom: you could introduce some static information so you can make the decision at the right time (like C++ does ;) 00:37:31 not that CL is conducive to it 00:37:34 -!- pdponze [n=fzhsw@167-97.106-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:38:19 what idiom is (if (and (= (length bla 1).... good for ? 00:38:39 versus what? 00:38:39 lenght is something like sizeof() ? 00:39:34 it returns the length of a list/string/vector, so that depends entirely on what the code does. 00:40:16 so it is not just an assertion ? 00:40:20 no, length is like length. 00:40:29 ok 00:40:44 -!- joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:42:12 joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 00:42:31 -!- sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:43:28 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-82-197.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:46:40 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [] 00:50:26 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:51:14 0123 foo\0 00:51:16 ups 00:53:17 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:39 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:55:59 -!- garslo [n=user@ppp-69-217-237-247.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:03:03 sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has joined #lisp 01:03:43 -!- sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has left #lisp 01:04:11 sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has joined #lisp 01:04:37 is there a builtin function that appends an element to a list, unless it's nil? 01:05:15 what does append do ? 01:05:21 or nconc ? 01:06:12 appends nil if given nil. 01:06:40 is here any bot we can use ? 01:06:44 interactively ? 01:06:54 nil is the empty list. Append the empty list as many times as you want, it won't change anything 01:06:56 tweek__: I don't think there is, but use your imagination. 01:07:08 -!- sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:07:22 no need. apparently it's just the wrapper macro I'm using for nconc that's appending nil all the damn time 01:07:23 <_death> sepult: if you want a link to the clhs page for the symbol, you can type `clhs ' in the channel 01:08:00 _death: no i meant something like rudybot of channel #scheme 01:08:11 <_death> dunno what that is 01:08:19 ok 01:08:21 like geordi 01:08:45 or that one 01:08:46 yes 01:08:48 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:09:23 sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has joined #lisp 01:09:36 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:09:40 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:12:21 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:12:30 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6ACF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:13:28 i use win, when i load sbcl on slime, it says save-image all-threads ... are unimplemented 01:14:02 is it an error? 01:15:10 no 01:15:11 i mean can i save-image anyway or is it about the lack of save-image feature in sbcl version? 01:16:19 it's about slime, pay no attention 01:16:27 ok thanks 01:16:39 unless you want to implement them 01:16:52 :) 01:17:19 may the force be with me 01:17:20 yes 01:18:26 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-4a234ed59df0a962] has left #lisp 01:21:03 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:38 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:59 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-82-197.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 01:27:25 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:27:45 hi 01:28:14 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:29:01 hi hi 01:30:19 How can I access the condition currently handled by a restart, if the restart is called interactively by the debugger? 01:31:08 I mean, if I use INVOKE-RESTART, I can pass to my restart code the condition by passing it explicitly 01:31:49 but what when the restart is invoked through invoke-restart-interactively by the debugger? 01:31:52 <_death> I guess you can install your own debugger hook that takes notice of the condition 01:32:43 _death: can you explain, please? 01:33:50 <_death> bind *debugger-hook* to your own function that sets some variable to the condition passed and calls the prior function or just returns 01:36:36 uhm, Isn't there a way to introspect the current handled condition? 01:36:53 <_death> not that I know of 01:37:17 _death: ok, thanks for the suggestion 01:37:21 <_death> in fact I think the variable should be a list of conditions 01:38:18 _death: why? 01:40:28 sai [n=sunnyvis@122.183.67.149] has joined #lisp 01:40:31 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:41:24 In my Blesity project, I wish to treat Java methods as if they were Lisp methods. In order to do that, I must group the Java methods into generic functions. 01:41:30 I see three approaches: 01:41:32 <_death> what happens if a condition is signaled when in the debugger? 01:41:43 0) Every java method is its own GF 01:41:53 1) every java method with a given name goes into a GF with that name 01:41:56 jcowan: what do you mean? Do you just want multimethods? 01:42:05 hi 01:42:08 Java doesn't have multimethods 01:42:27 jcowan: of course not. 01:42:36 jcowan: you're trying to hack them in somehow?... 01:42:44 2) Every group of Java methods with a common ancestor goes into a separate GF, but methods without a common ancestor are put in distinct GFs 01:43:16 Yes, so that you can call (java-method-name receiver arg1 arg2 ...) 01:43:25 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-26-96.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:43:40 jcowan: IIUC, the method's name is really the combination of the name and the topmost ancestor in the implementing class that has a method of that name 01:43:43 <_death> jcowan: how about all java methods belong to the generic function `java-method' 01:43:58 hi 01:44:10 _death: I think that is excessively hard to use 01:44:10 but that's not really an issue if you're willing to use introspection. 01:44:32 pkhuong: That would be approach 2, yes. 01:44:39 legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-1-58.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:44:49 The question is, which of 0, 1, 2 is best and easiest to use from Lisp? 01:44:59 <_death> jcowan: reader macros to the rescue? 01:45:02 depends on how much you're willing to pay at runtime, i think. 01:45:12 jcowan: how about common-ancestor and combining static overloads on that same ancestor? 01:45:45 I take combining static overloads for granted, kpreid. I don't want things to be worse than Java 01:46:07 heh heh 01:46:16 <_death> jcowan: or maybe just a short name like `J' :) 01:46:18 common-ancestor is the Right thing, I don't know if it's the nice thing 01:46:18 0 and 2 pay the least cost at runtime, but 1 is no worse than the cost paid for Lisp GFs in the generral case 01:46:56 1 has the disadvantage that it lumps methods together that only coincidentally have a common name 01:47:28 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:29 2 might be hard to use for people used to java's magic disambiguation 01:47:43 What is the normal practice in CL about GFs and packages? If you expect a GF to handle objects whose classes are in different packages, what package do you put the GF itself into? 01:48:04 <_death> packages don't hold classes 01:48:50 classes are named by symbols, symbols are in packages 01:49:00 <_death> yes, same goes for generic functions 01:49:06 Quite. 01:49:10 <_death> so you put them where it makes sense 01:49:17 What does make sense? 01:49:19 <_3b> GF goes in whatever package defines the protocol 01:50:16 So the expectation is that class names supplied by library users will be in their own packages, but gfs will have names in the library package? 01:50:46 <_3b> right, you don't rename cl:print-object just because it can print foo:objects 01:51:17 Reasonable. 01:51:40 <_3b> i might lean towards letting users deal with it though 01:52:37 <_3b> from what i've seen so far trying to do something similar for flash, trying to generate genrics with nice packages/naming can be confusing 01:52:39 1 has the advantage that you can write Lisp methods that go into Java GFs as well as vice versa, thanks to some magic compiler shims. 01:53:45 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:45 Although of course you will have to jump through Lisp hoops to call them from Java 01:55:37 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-26-96.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:57:12 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:21 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-30-236.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:01:03 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-31-82.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:01:17 if I have a function, foo, that takes two parameters 02:01:31 is there a way to specify both conditionally, without using let / setf ahead of time? 02:01:48 e.g., (foo (if (cond) (arg1 arg2) (arg3 arg4)) 02:02:07 futuresoon [n=futureso@cpe-68-175-67-66.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:02:19 no, because (arg1 arg2) means "call arg1 on arg2 and return its value 02:02:50 <_death> you could use apply.. or just pull out the if 02:02:52 You could say (multiple-value-call foo (if (cond) (values a1 a2) (values a3 a4))) 02:03:01 thought I just tried that 02:03:05 lemme try again 02:03:14 tweek__: (defun foo (x) (apply #'+ (if x (list 2 3) (list 4 5)))) 02:03:38 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:03 anyone had any luck using mel-base to handle multipart messages? I've been trying to pull out the plain text alternative using (part-body-string (find-viewable-part message)), which seems to work in my naive tests, but times out when i try to use it in map-messages. 02:06:57 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-180-40.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:21 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:11:20 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 02:12:20 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 02:17:22 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.174.153] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:18:33 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:22:43 -!- sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:24:15 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["I'm off!"] 02:26:17 -!- bugrum [n=vedam@c-98-201-95-13.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:26:52 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:29:43 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 02:34:22 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-35-112-156.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:01 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 02:38:23 -!- alec [n=alec@pool-96-233-21-86.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:43:31 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:45:11 tritchey, I used it more than 18 months ago and gave up. I think in the end that code was implemented in Java as we just did not have enough time to implement the whole thing in lisp 02:45:49 Although (as memory returns) we were sending multipart mails, not parsing them. 02:46:46 I think I found one of my problems. I was incorrectly using map-messages. Apparently you aren't supposed to actually do any work in there 02:48:55 -!- sai [n=sunnyvis@122.183.67.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:49:08 Oh, sorry this is all coming back to me now. The other big problem was that we needed to send emails in Japanese and had serious internal issues at that corp. so in the end used libs that we were certain worked. 02:50:32 The emails were coming from ASP and it turned out to be a windows thing. ... Sorry I've not been much 02:50:35 help 02:51:03 it is just good to know someone else was miserable 02:53:12 how do i read what's in my asdf:*central-registry* variable? 02:54:30 type asdf:*central-registry* in the REPL? 02:54:48 It may not be set, or asdf may not be loaded depending upon your environment 02:55:15 well on the one hand i just setf something into *central-registry* but on the other hand it's not defined 02:55:21 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 02:58:44 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:46 try (require 'asdf) first 02:59:03 i've done that before---NIL 02:59:12 it's SBCL *shrug8 02:59:43 (require 'asdf-binary-locations) 02:59:52 I think it's part of that utility 03:00:07 don't know how to require 03:00:21 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:00:46 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:01:15 (required 'asdf-install) (asdf-install:install 'asdf-binary-locations) 03:01:41 i don't think there is such a thing as asdf-install IIRC but let me check 03:02:03 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:27 oh ok, when i require it, that's good 03:02:31 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-99-33-30-119.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:33 so maybe this all works now, thanks 03:02:51 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:03:48 is it important that i run emacs as root for installing certain things? 03:04:24 it's ok, i'm gonna see in a second 03:04:42 you can just run the asdf-install from the command line 03:08:45 roark [n=roark@student166-188.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 03:13:16 -!- roark [n=roark@student166-188.hampshire.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 03:13:31 roark [n=roark@student166-188.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 03:15:22 is there anything that should be different with asdf-install completed from the command line? 03:15:29 none of the commands i've done does anything different yet 03:15:34 Is anyone familiar with openmp (in any lang)? 03:15:57 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:16:47 I've done some stuff with it in C 03:16:53 it's pretty cool 03:18:17 bugrum [n=vedam@c-98-201-95-13.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:29 dtangren [n=dtangren@c-76-125-177-14.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:09 quotemstr_ [n=quotemst@cpe-67-246-181-235.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:31:54 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 03:33:47 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-35-112-156.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:36:10 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:37:25 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 03:37:51 sai [n=sunnyvis@122.183.67.149] has joined #lisp 03:38:38 sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has joined #lisp 03:43:30 -!- sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:44:04 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:48:28 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 03:50:32 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-165-174.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:43 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:51:48 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 03:52:07 -!- thom_ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 03:53:11 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@c-76-125-177-14.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:53:44 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:57:23 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.196.239] has joined #lisp 03:57:45 futuresoon, so you can use sudo, rather than running emacs as root! 03:58:26 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 03:59:14 -!- sai [n=sunnyvis@122.183.67.149] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:00:18 -!- roark [n=roark@student166-188.hampshire.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:02:19 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:58 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:55 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-226-98.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 04:05:54 guys.. newbie here. I'm using ecl for learning and sometimes when I make a mistake on the repl, I get messages like "Broken at SI:BYTECODES.No restarts available" and an extra ">" on the prompt. What is going on here - is it some exceptions that I should break out of, before continuing? 04:06:14 SandGorgon: Is there any reason you're running ECL for learning? 04:06:14 might be best to learn with sbcl 04:07:21 dkcl: nothing in particular. 04:08:06 SandGorgon: You seem to run Ubuntu so I would recommend SBCL. 04:08:31 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-74553679d7141d15] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:09:08 dkcl: all right, I'll check up on that. Is this quirk with ecl alone. I am confused on what the interpreter is doing when I make errors 04:10:26 SandGorgon: Well, it's telling you you're making errors. Stop making errors, and everything should be fine. 04:11:20 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:23 !pcl 04:11:40 *dkcl* wonders how the bot here works. 04:11:41 dkcl: allright.. but any reason, why the command prompt keeps increasing its number. ">" then ">>" then ">>>" and so on 04:12:28 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-226-98.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 04:13:28 wentbackward: right, that's what i meant 04:13:35 wentbackward: it's ok, i've moved onto scheme (for now) 04:14:00 Good morning. 04:14:17 Hello there. 04:22:53 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:54 <_death> SandGorgon: more > indicates nested break loops 04:23:38 <_death> minion: chant 04:23:39 MORE INDICATES 04:23:42 <_death> hah 04:25:41 -!- froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:27:21 _death: thanks.. I read up on it 04:30:05 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 04:35:04 sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has joined #lisp 04:36:40 (sb-thread:interrupt-thread sb-thread:*current-thread* (lambda () (write-line "uh, hi there mr. self?"))) 04:36:48 *lnostdal* wonders what could go wrong here .... :P 04:37:00 -!- sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:38:37 nekobaka [n=baka@c-76-29-163-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:17 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 04:46:31 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:49:26 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 04:50:15 In slime with sbcl, how do you interrupt or kill a thread that you started a long time ago? 04:52:41 sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has joined #lisp 04:52:49 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:52:55 -!- sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:57:59 -!- tweek__ [n=tweek@host-5-159-107-208.midco.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 04:59:19 silently, in the night 05:00:28 *_3b* votes for 'from orbit, with nukes' 05:00:36 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has left #lisp 05:00:38 it's the only way to be sure 05:01:46 ah, unless you only want to interrupt it. I'd wait until it's concentrating then start making loud sheep noises. 05:04:57 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-95-53-181-160.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 05:06:36 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-210-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:49 with extreme prejudice. 05:08:07 do you know any particularly deadly keystrokes? 05:08:15 xyblor, M-x slime-list-threads 05:08:49 it's kind of hard to interpret that list 05:09:12 but thanks 05:09:26 when you create the thread, you should specify a good name for it 05:09:31 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.196.239] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:09:39 ah 05:10:13 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-158-218.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:01 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:19:04 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 05:19:56 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.206.22] has joined #lisp 05:22:29 http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo/ 05:22:33 (off-topic) 05:25:21 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:30:10 -!- febeling [n=febeling@p5B25EE66.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 05:30:51 sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has joined #lisp 05:30:53 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 05:32:01 -!- sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:34:37 -!- _CitizenKane_ [n=quassel@edit57.daily.umn.edu] has quit ["No Ping reply in 30 seconds."] 05:34:46 _CitizenKane_ [n=quassel@edit57.daily.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 05:38:31 pretty subconceptual 05:38:59 lakedenma [n=irchon@cpe-075-181-164-113.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:40:03 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:15 -!- lakedenma [n=irchon@cpe-075-181-164-113.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:40:25 good morning 05:49:32 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:51:45 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:00 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:18 sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has joined #lisp 05:55:27 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:57:36 -!- sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:00:12 -!- jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:01:40 dkcl, that's pretty impressive. 06:01:42 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:02:07 wentbackward: It's pretty amusing, I would say. 06:03:01 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 06:03:51 tweek__ [n=tweek@host-5-159-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:05 is it worth screwing with clisp's packaging system? 06:04:35 or should I just use (load "file") as includes 06:04:41 sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has joined #lisp 06:06:20 Ijeroj [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 06:08:56 -!- Joreji [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:11:25 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:40 tweek__: asdf is worth the learning curve, to make your code easier to deal with 06:14:28 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:27 asdf? 06:15:29 seriously? 06:15:32 that's what it's called? 06:15:55 tweek__: http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 06:15:55 Another System Definition Format or something 06:16:02 Facility, yes. 06:16:23 just use load, for now. 06:16:41 once you have 2 places that load the same file, you really should look at asdf 06:16:54 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 06:16:58 alright 06:17:10 just to check, maybe some of you have seen this document floating around a while 06:17:22 is this describing this 'asdf' packaging system or a different one? http://www.flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf 06:17:28 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:17:51 those packages are basically Lisp's namespaces, as a broad generalization 06:18:15 it doesn't have anything to do with reusing and finding source code files 06:18:36 tweek__, asdf is like make, cmake or scons (from C or C++ land) .. lisp packages are like namespaces (from C++) or packages (from Java) 06:18:38 but yes, you should learn packages, too ;) 06:18:45 *hefner* doesn't write makefiles for one or two file C programs, and doesn't bother writing asdf systems until he's had to reload the code by hand more than three or four times.. which could take weeks, given the longevity of a lisp session. 06:19:10 you should learn packages before trying to tackle asdf 06:19:42 yes, learning the language before messing with libraries and build-tools for it is probably a good idea 06:19:42 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:04 especially since you can use the language without them initially.... but they are there rro a reason 06:20:08 s/rro/for/ 06:20:39 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:21:20 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:21:28 making package handling not language dependent would really ease adoption 06:22:03 what do you mean? 06:22:04 and i would think it would spur more development of libraries too 06:22:05 you mean like using import from java in lisp? 06:22:46 packaging and the language being packaged are generally pretty tightly bound 06:22:47 i just mean i was going through PCL and there was this awesome footnote saying "just import this regex program that's just like perl's regex" but i've been trying to figure out ASDF and i think i'm seeing i'll have to read the rest of PCL before I can do any 'cool' stuff 06:23:05 futuresoon: nah 06:23:11 Phoodus: i mean "untar this folder here and it will work" 06:23:13 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:23:18 out of the box, fer noobz 06:23:22 just use clbuild 06:23:25 that's what asdf is intended to do 06:23:43 well, untar + ln -s the .asd file onto your path. Then you can load & go 06:23:43 jao [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:23:50 Phoodus: don't get me wrong, it's awesome that asdf allows you to roll your own so that in principle it will then work like this 06:24:08 i'm just saying, i'm on day 2 of lisp, so i can't use a single library 06:24:09 -!- legumbre` is now known as legumbre 06:24:15 oh dear 06:24:49 and you use ubuntu too, right? 06:25:04 yeah, sbcl too 06:25:04 yep. A lot of Lisp is generally more focused on what's immediately in its VM rather than interfacing with the system around it. 06:25:12 clbuild = love. 06:25:30 especially the tutorials 06:26:03 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 06:26:19 i was downloading slackware today for another computer 06:26:22 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-4294.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 06:26:29 so that'll be fun 06:26:51 slackware? huh? anybody using it still? 06:27:03 It'll keep you pre-occupied for something else for a while, yes 06:27:04 my understanding is that it's the oldest maintained linux distro 06:27:34 i was trying to do this graduate course in classical mechanics in mit-scheme but now i'm being thrown back to the undergraduate scheme course 06:27:39 so that's today's fun 06:30:48 I use slackware. 06:30:57 yeah? does it provide you with enough slack? 06:31:13 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:21 Yeah. It is very easy to use. I only use firefox, SBCL, and emacs anyway. 06:31:41 well if you have emacs and slackware together, it's slacktastic 06:31:44 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-51c4e1665d893762] has joined #lisp 06:31:54 I want to switch to freebsd though. 06:31:57 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-51c4e1665d893762] has left #lisp 06:32:12 i'm coming out with my own linux distro in 20 years or so 06:32:20 it's going to be called the greener grass distro 06:32:33 everyone will want to move to it and we will conquer the world handily 06:32:34 But sbcl threads don't work on freebsd. So I'm trying to figure out how to port SBCL threads. 06:33:01 it seems to me that what we want is a bayesian network written in lisp that can write its own compiler 06:33:24 I'm not sure about all this evangelising Lisp and people complaining about it's lack of libraries, etc. etc. I quite like that it's hard for people to start with, especially that hard equates to having to actually read something and learn how it works. 06:33:50 That's just a leap of faith. 06:33:54 It is problematic though, because SBCL uses futexes which are a linux only thing to do threads. 06:34:01 wentbackward: ^ 06:34:35 wentbackward: in principle dependcy management for packages just means doing the requisite network discovery on a directed acyclic graph 06:34:51 but maybe i should read more about how it's done in Lisp specifically 06:35:01 so that i can actually use any libraries 06:35:05 ;-) 06:35:27 So I'm trying to figure out how to use posix semaphores instead. Someone else tried to do this already (documented http://sbcl-internals.cliki.net/Removing futexes) 06:35:48 Can anyone tell me where to find Nathan's code? 06:38:17 I thought sbcl had threads on freebsd, at least on i386 and amd64 06:38:49 yes, it does 06:39:00 mogunus: lutexes 06:39:07 how do you export functions like (setf (foo ...))? 06:39:33 slyrus_: is that a freebsd analog to the futex...? 06:39:46 tweek__: Stick them in a main function. Unless you consider that to be bad style. 06:40:00 mogunus: it's a non-futex-having-os analog, yes 06:40:24 I thought it was all included with the SBCL source. There's a build option :sb-lutex 06:40:25 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.206.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:40:29 (defun set-foo () ...) 06:40:34 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:40:40 yeah that'd require a lot of unnecessary rewriting 06:40:52 I'd rather just say to hell with packages if that's the case 06:41:08 tweek__: There must be other ways, and packages are something you should probably learn. 06:41:17 That is really exciting. I clearly need to get better at reading SBCL docs. 06:41:38 wentbackward: I think that gets automagically enabled if you enable sb-threads on appropriate platforms 06:42:08 I got it into my head that SBCL doesn't do threads on fbsd because ports has threads turned off. 06:42:21 And then I found that page on the internals wiki 06:43:04 slyrus, ah yes, of course, when I built on my mac, I didn't explicitly turn anything on. 06:44:14 Now I can move to fbsd. This makes me really happy. 06:44:25 is there any way to save-image executables in sbcl with an icon? 06:44:36 gzip4 [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has joined #lisp 06:44:39 especially in win 06:45:38 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:46:18 hi. i need help with clos. 06:47:15 *dkcl* thinks it's CLOS that needs help. 06:48:26 i have class 'object' which have slot 'parent' to hold link to instance of 'object' and slot 'children' to hold list of 'objects'... 06:49:56 md1 [n=user@stip-srk131.195-146-143.telecom.sk] has joined #lisp 06:50:21 is there any way to save-image executables in sbcl with an icon? 06:50:28 Oh, well... At least I read a bunch about posix IPC. 06:50:30 sorry for spamming :) 06:51:05 forget it... 06:51:33 why? 06:52:11 that would depend on how your environment decides on how to display an icon 06:52:44 -!- xyblor [n=nik@75-119-230-137.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:52:47 if it's based on data embedded in the executable, then saving an executable image would keep the same icon as the original sbcl executable 06:53:06 if it's based on some sort of metadata, you'd have to set it after saving the image 06:53:29 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:53:38 Is there some sort of bugtracker for SBCL? 06:53:48 but there's no built-in facility in sbcl to do it that I know of 06:54:09 mogunus, https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl 06:54:14 mogunus: there's the mailing lists and https://code.launchpad.net/sbcl 06:54:33 jesus there's zero legible documentation on this anywhere 06:54:34 thanks, both 06:54:36 er, what lnostdal said 06:54:40 all I'm finding are mailing list posts 06:54:45 I'm on sbcl-devel 06:54:58 i thought maybe there's a keyword to save-image-and-die designed to handle this but i couln't find in ref 06:55:06 (only for a week or so, I should probably skim the atchives) 06:55:13 with threads of like ten+ posts all of people skillfully dodging the question by arguing over definitions like Zhivago or something 06:55:18 tweek__, on what? 06:55:48 tweek__, "setf" is already exported .. so just export "foo" 06:55:55 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-8aac05db0aa7cce2] has joined #lisp 06:55:57 http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/Lisp/comp.lang.lisp/2005-01/0448.html 06:56:03 seriously these guys should be politicians 06:56:12 I already tried that and it didn't work 06:56:15 tweek__, (or, "setf" is already part of the CL package .. .. which you most likely import into your other packages) 06:56:37 works here 06:56:39 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:56:48 I also have a function called 'foo' 06:57:04 one's an accessor, one's a mutator, basically 06:57:07 yeah, that is not a problem 06:57:18 apparently it is! 06:57:25 or I wouldn't be typing this 06:58:06 <_3b> so put a testcase on lisppaste and see if anyone sees a problem 06:58:22 *_3b* is guessing you are using the wrong symbol 06:58:33 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:03:18 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:03:26 splittist [n=dmurray@138-11.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:03:29 morning 07:03:49 lnostdal pasted "tweek__" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78296 07:04:37 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:05:27 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:34 looks like it works 07:06:01 I guess this is a matter of preference, but should I be using defpackage or in-package and calls to export? 07:06:37 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:06:52 i have a dumb messy habit of mixing those two methods .. heh 07:07:07 If you use a package often, then, err, use-package. However it means when looking back at the code, you need to go figure out what symbols are exported by what package 07:08:48 (defpackage) seems to give a nice C include-file like prototype of what's contained inside 07:09:01 having to export symbols after they've been declared is a pain in the ass 07:09:07 or seems like it anyway 07:09:16 yeah, i try to have a one defpackage form on a pr. project basis 07:09:22 yep, but it offers a lot of flexibility 07:10:27 In this case you want to get out of cl-user and just work in :blah, so in-package and keep going. 07:11:01 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.157.39] has joined #lisp 07:11:22 these can all be split amongst different files too. So you can still segregate code within a package into files, just (in-package) at the top of that file 07:11:52 <_3b> slime has hotkeys to add/remove exports to the defpackage i think 07:11:53 likewise you can add things to other packages 07:14:02 Have a browse of code written by someone like Edi Weitz, something simple like cl-who. 07:14:15 It's very tidy! 07:18:22 hrr4 [n=hrr4@p5B1221D6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:19:10 elderK [n=zk@222-152-94-45.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:20:43 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6BC54.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:19 -!- hrr4 [n=hrr4@p5B1221D6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:23:24 -!- tweek__ [n=tweek@host-5-159-107-208.midco.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:23:35 Ragnaroek [i=54a6539b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9ddb735a9b122b6b] has joined #lisp 07:23:47 -!- futuresoon [n=futureso@cpe-68-175-67-66.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:24:10 -!- sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:27:25 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 07:27:49 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 07:28:24 -!- ltriant [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 07:29:46 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:30:38 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 07:34:50 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:38:31 sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has joined #lisp 07:38:56 ejs [n=eugen@9-215-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:06 is there any way to hide the console of sbcl exe created by save-lisp-and-die? 07:39:20 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:40:08 i want core to run hidden and program to start with gui 07:40:12 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 07:40:59 i asked that for second time i was disconnected so i'm sorry if anyone answered already 07:44:05 sultan-of-swing: are you sure that #'save-lisp-and-die "creates" the console ? 07:44:31 <_3b> as far as i know, the best you can do is a shortcut that starts it minimized 07:44:43 <_3b> (at least without hacking sbcl) 07:47:30 sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "bla.exe" :executable t 07:48:33 i think somethink like this creates a core executable which starts usual sbcl console when run 07:48:35 -!- ejs [n=eugen@9-215-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:48:39 am i wrong? 07:48:56 something* 07:49:18 <_3b> right, it could probably be changed, but would be a bit of work 07:49:43 <_3b> if i remember right, the build process relies on being able to pass forms on stdin to the newly built sbcl for one thing 07:50:11 googling around shows there are a couple of free utility programs one can use to launch a process and "force" it to not pop up a console window 07:51:43 sultan-of-swing: you can use editbin to change the subsystem from console to windows for the sbcl executable, but that's a bad idea :) 07:52:33 hmm, afaik cormanlisp's save-image option has a parameter to hide console, so i thought sbcl's save-lisp-and-die may have a similer key too 07:53:05 what do you guys think of clojure? is it worth learning, or should I stick with CL? 07:53:21 the console is just a flag set in the target executable. you can change it yourself after the binary has been generated 07:54:30 hmm, i'll search for it 07:54:33 thanks, 07:54:36 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:55:05 jho: it does seem nice. it deals with concurrency right from the language semantics 07:55:29 but this is #lisp, if you need reasons to switch to clojure, you probably should see #clojure :) 07:55:35 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 07:55:44 isn't clojure a leyer on jvm? 07:55:45 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:54 it's a lisp-like language on jvm 07:55:55 well clojure is a lisp too ;) 07:56:28 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.157.39] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:57:06 scheme is a lisp too .. but there is #scheme , jho .. same thing with comp.lang.lisp --> common lisp .. and comp.lang.scheme --> scheme 07:57:06 i thought on using a cl works on jvm at first but i loved sbcl 07:57:08 jho: yeah :) 07:57:44 here people mostly mean common lisp when they say lisp 07:59:10 -!- holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:00:03 -!- jao [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:00:54 i think #lisp is a good place to ask for dialect stuff because i usually don't hear very objective thoughts on cl from schemers 08:01:49 it gets confusing for a newbie like me 08:01:51 jao [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:01:54 anyway 08:08:14 does other languages have something like cffi? the ffi term is cl based i think 08:09:21 i think many (most?) languages have a FFI type thing 08:09:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_function_interface 08:10:22 morning 08:10:39 hmm, "The term comes from the specification for Common Lisp," but its true that its cl based 08:12:03 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:12:18 6! Down to 6 files 08:12:31 maybe I will finish this before sbcl-1.0.next 08:14:47 Question for anyone in the know: How correct is SB-ALIEN on Windows? 08:15:18 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:16:23 mxb [n=mxb@host86-167-99-116.range86-167.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:16:41 sultan-of-swing: the term might be coined by CL, but many languages use it (although many use " to C" API for that...) 08:19:55 <_3b> lichtblau: it seems to work OK through cffi from what i've seen, doesn't always like the names in a .dll though 08:20:34 Have you guys heard of OpenCL. Unfortunate naming, it is not a Lisp. 08:21:11 <_3b> wentbackward: we have, there wlil probably be ffi bindings for it at some point 08:21:33 _3b: how about callbacks? callback that then call into C again? callbacks with conditions happening in them? etc. 08:21:39 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:22:26 Well, it certainly works better than CCL/win32, which gives me a kernel debugger on the first callback. 08:22:38 lichtblau: works fairly well.. but on vista i get fairly frequent crashes with sbcl.. 08:22:40 <_3b> lichtblau: i've used callbacks, and called to C from them i think, probably unwound through them as well 08:22:52 <_3b> lichtblau: might need to be careful about calling convention though with callbacks 08:23:11 <_3b> (i think it can fake it when calling out to C, but you need to get it right th eother way around) 08:23:45 <_3b> or possibly only one of them works, not sure about the details there 08:25:12 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:29 <_3b> getting callbacks from wrong thread might be the problem with CCL, dunno if they handle that yet or not 08:25:51 josemanuel [n=josemanu@175.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 08:25:55 CCL is Corman? is it still maintained? 08:26:01 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 08:26:01 no threads involved yet, although threading is one of the reasons I would have preferred CCL. 08:26:10 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:26:20 <_3b> i assumed the other ccl, corman handles callbacks from random threads iirc 08:27:14 <_3b> lichtblau: i mean from random threads you didn't start, which threaded lisps probably care about even if you don't start any threads 08:27:36 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has left #lisp 08:28:33 no, Qt itself is pretty picky about sticking to the right thread once you've started using one, so I wouldn't suspect any mixup there 08:29:04 -!- sultan-of-swing [n=user@88.238.35.244] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:29:40 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:30:03 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:31:10 huk_fin [n=HukFin@61.17.164.209] has joined #lisp 08:37:54 note that sb-alien isn't used by cffi 08:38:12 <_3b> what does cffi use? 08:39:12 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:39:37 okay. I should clarify that I didn't mean high-level sb-alien itself, but just the low-level c-call bits in SBCL. I realize that, say, type-related issues could hide in cffi itself. 08:40:25 _3b: saps and similar low-level things 08:40:29 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 08:40:43 frank_s [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has joined #lisp 08:40:44 <_3b> ah, ok... didn't realize there was a difference :) 08:40:56 cffi is like C: everything's a pointer; sb-alien is an attempt to layer a type-safe thing on top of that 08:41:05 *Krystof* waves his hands 08:42:13 sai [n=sunnyvis@122.183.67.149] has joined #lisp 08:42:53 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:43:09 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 08:43:23 -!- frank_s__ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:46:27 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 08:47:21 sultan-o` [n=user@88.238.210.50] has joined #lisp 08:48:02 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:42 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 08:51:12 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:54:46 huh, how do I get a slime backtrace if a hunchentoot error happens in the 1.0.0 days? 08:55:07 <_3b> *break-on-signals* ? 08:55:45 hmm. there used to be *catch-errors-p*, is that the new way to do things now? 08:56:25 <_3b> that's what i've heard, haven't upgraded yet here :) 08:56:48 (I'm a bit annoyed that the best way to get a log of what changed between pre-1.0 ht and 1.0 ht is to first remember the old documentation perfectly, then read the new documentation and do a mental diff on them) 09:02:41 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 09:04:48 _zenon_ [n=x@78-70-153-10-no74.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:05:54 xjo 09:05:56 -!- sai [n=sunnyvis@122.183.67.149] has left #lisp 09:06:23 also, I'd really like to figure out how to get a backtrace nowadays. hrmpf. 09:07:45 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 09:13:54 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:14:54 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:15:50 Ah, I was trying to remember what the old setting was too. *break-on-signals* seems to be the way to do it. 09:16:01 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 09:17:04 except it doesn't actually break here, just displays the same 500 internal server error message. 09:17:29 the mailing list says to create your own dispatcher that handler-binds around the default ones. 09:18:31 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:18:38 -!- sultan-o` [n=user@88.238.210.50] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:19:04 febeling [n=febeling@p5B25EE66.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:31 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:19:56 Is it that the error is perhaps a lisp error? I just set *break-on-signals* 'error and the backtrace was fine. I think my error was that hunchentoot:content-type had changed to hunchentoot:content-type* 09:20:10 I don't think it tripped an HT condition 09:21:13 I have one handler with (error "foo") in it. I get the 500 i-s-e page, no slime debugger. *break-on-signals* is error 09:22:18 <_3b> is it set in the correct thread? 09:22:52 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.190.219] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:22:56 let me check 09:23:22 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.190.219] has joined #lisp 09:24:04 it is. set to ERROR in the handler, as well 09:24:13 so. well. stumped. 09:24:55 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.206.22] has joined #lisp 09:25:39 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:14 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 09:26:49 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:03 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 09:27:05 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 09:27:42 time to write to the mailing list, I guess (: 09:29:34 It's strange, I just set *b-o-s* again it broke (!?) as there was an error further down in my code. The backtrace was all arse about face. but it did at least give me the correct error (invalid no. args) and the function where it occurred 09:29:50 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 09:29:50 there was a load of ffi messages first 09:30:01 s/was/were/ 09:30:43 This time it's that (script-name) now takes an argument 09:31:06 oh. huh. running outside of slime, this works; breaks in the appropriate thread. 09:31:08 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:31:39 (I'm running on ccl, by the way. could be that there are strange interactions going on /-:) 09:32:11 oh yes, I'm on sbcl 09:33:57 <_3b> antifuchs: recent slime? 09:34:03 a week old 09:34:20 <_3b> ah, guess so then 09:34:51 <_3b> seem to remember something about ccl threads confusing slime debugger, but that seems to have been january or so 09:35:01 fun with SBCL: http://www.lichteblau.com/tmp/t14.png 09:35:22 sweet, lichtblau! 09:35:35 hm, I'll compile a threaded sbcl and run on that, then 09:35:42 nice ldb prompt! 09:36:11 I firmly blame the GC invariant on SBCL/win32. Can't be my FFI code, can it? 09:38:05 _3b: hm, can't find a reference to that right now... do you remember the subject line? 09:38:11 I'd suspect GC on win32... 09:38:38 btw, can't we just map GC space high enough on x86-64 that no *sane* library would load there? :D 09:39:09 ah, there: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.slime.devel/8157/focus=8186 09:40:04 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 09:40:33 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.190.219] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:41:04 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.190.219] has joined #lisp 09:44:05 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:44:15 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 09:45:28 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1DB78.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 09:46:13 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6C0B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:23 so the *debugger-hook* function /is/ # on the hunchentoot worker thread, to 09:46:24 o 09:46:45 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.190.219] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:46:58 <_3b> do you get a debugger if you call break in the handler? 09:47:48 nope 09:48:30 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Success] 09:51:12 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-15.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:53:25 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:58:12 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:14 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 09:58:38 so, OK. apparently, *break-on-signals* isn't compatible with html-template, and threaded sbcl has already crashed once loading my system. I /think/ I'll wait for hunchentoot 1.0.x until I do more work on this 09:59:10 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:59:59 tombom [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 10:00:00 -!- tombom [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:00:08 tombom [n=tombomp@86.29.158.50] has joined #lisp 10:00:27 Can't help there. I've been using cl-emb and cl-who. 10:03:35 guille_ [n=user@83.Red-83-39-86.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:40 -!- jao [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:04:54 kiuma [n=kiuma@host148-131-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:05:40 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6C0B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:06:33 also, heh, doing (error ...) in a plain new process in ccl results in a nice slime debugger. so it could be anything between swank and bordeaux-threads and hunchentoot 10:07:23 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:07:38 -!- KingNato [n=KingNato@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 10:09:41 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:12:15 you could use sbcl instead! 10:13:35 extra bonus: you could fix any sbcl bugs that show up using your shiny commit access 10:13:48 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@78-70-153-10-no74.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:19:25 ntoll [n=ntoll@82-69-19-185.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:23:51 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:24:07 oh, hey! making my own acceptor class that wraps some closures in handler-bind works! 10:24:54 Krystof: right, I could solve the os x problems that have given generations of sbcl committers headaches and ascend to godhood, but I'd rather get the canvas drawing working (: 10:25:14 same for the obvious "just use linux" suggestion (: 10:26:18 well, that seems reasonable too 10:28:46 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:29:52 ltriant_ [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 10:30:33 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 10:30:56 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:31:08 so. Miserable failure with Qt/Windows from SBCL, CCL, and Allegro. As expected, three different failure modes. 10:31:34 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:12 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 10:35:14 G'day! 10:36:06 snippyhollow [n=snippyho@203.160.1.71] has joined #lisp 10:38:38 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A4E8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:38:40 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:39:04 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:20 deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:46 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:43:45 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:46:20 aaand it plots. this is very sweet. 10:48:51 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:49:41 jsnell: I suppose this would be a good time to finally fix the cl-bench numbers. do you still have your tree with the adjusted-for-sensible-run-times benchmarks around? 10:49:49 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Client Quit] 10:51:23 I at least have it at home. let's see if I have it anywhere network-accessible too 10:52:49 great! 10:53:22 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:57:20 -!- snippyhollow [n=snippyho@203.160.1.71] has left #lisp 11:01:09 doylent [n=doylent@host113-122-dynamic.56-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:02:10 clisp: fourth failure mode, worse than even ccl 11:05:30 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:06:11 -!- ltriant_ [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:07:18 lichtblau: maybe all those other implementations should have a kitten of death in their startup banners too 11:07:32 antifuchs: ok, doesn't look like I have it here. I'll send it to you tonight 11:07:40 that's great, thanks 11:08:31 (even better would be to rewrite the tests to run for a constant time and measure the number of iterations that could be done in that time) 11:08:53 yes. Either that, or the fault is with my code. 11:09:00 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-4294.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:09:26 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:10:24 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:11:44 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:14:32 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 11:19:52 -!- febeling [n=febeling@p5B25EE66.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 11:19:55 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 11:22:52 LostMonarch [n=roby@host60-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:23:07 plutonas [n=plutonas@nomad50136.netlogon.lu.se] has joined #lisp 11:23:58 -!- elderK [n=zk@222-152-94-45.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 11:29:33 -!- plan9 [n=stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:31:17 manic12_ [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:13 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 11:34:56 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA522.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:38:24 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:41:09 -!- Ijeroj [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:41:18 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:42:50 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:04 -!- plutonas 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(Connection timed out)] 11:58:02 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:00:40 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 12:02:18 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:07 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 12:04:37 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 12:05:53 -!- guille_ [n=user@83.Red-83-39-86.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:06:08 yain [n=yain@77.35.234.45] has joined #lisp 12:06:25 hi 12:08:50 |doylent| [n=doylent@host46-130-dynamic.46-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:09:07 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:09:14 *antifuchs* produces horrifying DWIM symbol destructuring patches for s-sql 12:09:20 pretty neat result, though 12:10:42 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 12:11:39 -!- nooper 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[n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:11:39 -!- hefner [n=hefner@scatterbrain.cbp.pitt.edu] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:11:39 -!- DrForr [n=drforr@eldwist.darkuncle.net] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:11:39 -!- rumbleca [n=rumble@174.0.46.123] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:11:42 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:11:56 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 12:11:56 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 12:11:56 splittist [n=dmurray@138-11.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 12:11:56 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-82-197.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 12:11:56 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:56 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 12:11:56 c|mell [n=cmell@nttkyo036048.tkyo.nt.ngn.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:11:56 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:56 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:56 nooper [i=nooper@2001:41c8:0:866:21c:c0ff:fe7f:7198] has joined #lisp 12:11:56 rumbleca [n=rumble@174.0.46.123] has joined #lisp 12:11:56 hefner [n=hefner@scatterbrain.cbp.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 12:11:56 DrForr [n=drforr@eldwist.darkuncle.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:45 how do I get a meaningful stack trace from runaway recursion in SBCL? 12:14:02 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:14:58 -!- frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:15:45 also, is it possible to (declare (optimize (debug 3)) everything in my package? 12:16:09 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:16:53 frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has joined #lisp 12:17:26 Comments are welcome: http://cliki.net/binomial-heap 12:17:40 yain: See PROCLAIM. 12:21:54 yain: try to debug using (declare (notinline) ) 12:26:22 Liam2 [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:26:54 -!- doylent [n=doylent@host113-122-dynamic.56-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:28:16 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:28:38 froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 12:36:21 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:36:56 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp025.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 12:43:37 vy: probably not what you were asking for, but in the first sentence on the Cliki page I'd say "THE binomial heap datastructure". And the second sentence could be switched around to say "Insertion, extrememum ... operations can be performed on the data structure in O(log n) time" or similar. 12:44:09 (Although the anti-passivists won't like that second one) 12:45:10 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:35 splittist: Thanks. Fixed in the wiki. 12:46:24 splittist: Is "John Q. Splittist" right? 12:47:12 dtangren [n=dtangren@c-76-125-177-14.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:22 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@c-76-125-177-14.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:48:38 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 12:51:32 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 12:51:42 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:01 vy: Yes. 12:53:06 -!- Borbus [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has left #lisp 12:53:20 Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.96.75] has joined #lisp 12:54:43 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl200.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has left #lisp 12:56:39 brandelune [n=suzume@pl200.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:56:58 febeling [n=febeling@p5B25EE66.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:23 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:58:53 HET2 [n=diman@128.131.95.41] has joined #lisp 12:59:23 -!- HET2 [n=diman@128.131.95.41] has quit [Client Quit] 13:00:26 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 13:00:48 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.206.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:01:12 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.199.171] has joined #lisp 13:03:28 has anyone downloaded a copy of that vimeo sbcl development visualisation? 13:03:52 I'd be interested to see the video but I'm not going to enable flash in my browser or sign up to yet another web thing 13:03:53 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 13:05:43 ktne [n=ktne@unaffiliated/ktne] has joined #lisp 13:05:48 hello 13:05:55 is there anyone using vim with lisp? 13:06:44 ktne: yes, but they're less common than emacs users 13:07:20 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:07:50 Joreji [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:09:15 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:24 wget 'http://bitcast-a.v1.fra1.bitgravity.com/vimeo/v/168/853/1688536.mp4?e=1239286128&h=740c8d52dac1cbbfe785447ed10af9e7' 13:10:32 -!- Modius [n=Modius@99.179.96.75] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:11:30 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-97-76.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Network is unreachable] 13:12:15 -!- trebor_d` [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:12:43 *antifuchs* boos at apparent thread-unsafety in cl-json 13:12:44 Doesn't look very exciting to me though. Perhaps I gave up too soon, but there's only a "wnewman" in the middle, and then there's some stars flying around. 13:13:03 or http://sbcl.boinkor.net/tmp/dev-viz.avi 13:13:17 that's until crhodes and dan_b join in 13:14:24 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl200.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 13:14:36 unfortunately I've just read one of the author's earlier blog entries, which contains an utter howler 13:14:40 brandelune [n=suzume@pl200.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:14:52 I will try to enjoy the video nonetheless 13:14:58 what? 13:15:23 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:27 hello 13:15:54 ljosa [n=ljosa@gm3b6-dd5.broad.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 13:15:58 antifuchs: I see. Pretty! But what does it mean? 13:16:13 he claims that sbcl's compiler magically optimized an O(N^2) algorithm to an O(N) one using just tail-call merging 13:16:35 unfortunately, what actually happened is that he failed to call the O(N^2) algorithm, and instead called the O(N) version he himself had written 13:16:41 http://www.imagine27.com/articles/2007-11-30-172600_lisp-c-haskell.html 13:16:51 sai [n=sunnyvis@122.183.67.149] has joined #lisp 13:17:19 doylent [n=doylent@host252-6-dynamic.46-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:17:20 lichtblau: it means to amuse you, but apparently it failed :) 13:17:27 i'm interested in the idea of artificial intuition -- that is, having an AI program generate new ideas by recombination, like it would take sets of ideas that you input and try to combine them (& related ideas) in a way that is new 13:17:46 anyone know anything about this? i'd love to read some related theory, or just be pointed toward anything relevant. 13:17:54 -!- ktne [n=ktne@unaffiliated/ktne] has left #lisp 13:18:34 isismelting: what kind of ideas were you wanting to combine? 13:19:25 the visualization has picked up (around October 2002) that apd worked largely on src/compiler/ 13:19:26 lichtblau: http://vis.cs.ucdavis.edu/~ogawa/codeswarm/ 13:19:48 and kmr on contrib/ 13:20:05 > Both developers and files are represented as moving elements. When a developer commits a file, it lights up and flies towards that developer. Files are colored according to their purpose, such as whether they are source code or a document. If files or developers have not been active for a while, they will fade away. A histogram at the bottom keeps a reminder of what has come before. 13:21:14 dlowe - that's for the user to decide -- usually an AI program is just a long list of predictable reactions -- i want something to come up with NEW ideas (at the risk of it saying something wrong / stupid) 13:21:30 getting crowded in the middle now 13:22:25 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:39 isismelting: how would you represent an idea? 13:22:48 generically? 13:23:12 dlowe: an idea would be very very archetypal and open -- are you familiar with the tarot cards at all? 13:23:22 or with jungian psychology, or anything with archetypes? 13:23:54 I liked it. The big whitespacification(s)(?) inject a bit of drama. 13:24:07 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:24:07 oh, was that it? Yes, that makes sense 13:24:08 isismelting: I'm familiar. Do you think such things are computable? 13:24:10 *boom* 13:24:29 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.199.171] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:24:39 Same for the darwin and x86-64 ports, I assume? 13:24:41 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.247.134] has joined #lisp 13:24:57 dlowe - i am not sure, that's what i wonder. i think maybe like a major arcana (the magician?) could be associated with a list of words (create, creativity, positive, masculine, etc) 13:25:04 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 13:25:23 dlowe - and through some advanced parsing application, my AI program could turn whatever you input (whatever you say) into a set of tarot cards 13:25:35 (maybe it would use princeton's wordnet software?) 13:25:47 (and use language? unless there is another way) 13:25:50 Artificial Schizophrenia. 13:25:52 isismelting: I think you will be doomed to abject failure. 13:26:03 Zhivago - AS - that is right! 13:26:09 dlowe - why? 13:26:45 -!- Liam2 [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:27:37 most "AI" chatbots today are just lists of responses to possible inputs - some of the "advanced" ones can say "i have no response for that, what do you recommend" then you can tell it what to do ---- this is FAKING intelligence. 13:28:14 how else could a program kind of "come up with new ideas" unless you give it a set of archetypes and program it to act randomly (yet controlled) even schizophrenically? 13:28:19 isismelting: it may seem like a small leap, but it isn't 13:28:22 I suggest that you sit down and think carefully about what intelligence means, and what holding a dialogue means. 13:28:51 isismelting: you are in the position of computer scientists in the 60s, who optimistically forecasted a computer with human intelligence in 10 years 13:29:02 Zhivago - when i do that, i get lost on two paths. one is the idea of grammar & parsing, the other is the idea of archetypes and recombination. 13:29:06 isismelting: There are plenty of learning systems that produce creative results -- perhaps you might like to study them. 13:29:29 Zhivago - i certainly would love to study them 13:29:47 Zhivago - i just am new, really, and don't know what to look for - could you help me by pointing me at something? 13:29:50 Plenty of freely available information on the net. 13:29:53 http://lmgtfy.com/?q=learning+systems 13:30:01 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:30:07 dlowe - i don't want to be naive with optimism or something 13:30:08 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 13:30:16 I'd start with a neural network -- they're pretty simple. 13:30:26 dlowe - i just haven't seen the idea of a set of < 100 archetypes used for ideation 13:31:00 like any input would be reduced to (trees of) these archetypes then new ideas could spring from complexly-weaved recombining of the ideas. 13:31:14 isismelting: May I humbly suggest that you will get your most definitive answer of the difficulties by actually trying it 13:31:38 dlowe - you're certainly right on 13:31:44 I should alias that phrase to something convenient 13:32:02 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:10 dlowe - i just wonder if what i want to attempt has already tried/failed & if i could avoid having to do it myself 13:32:40 (i want to use my mind to help the movement of human technology, not to masturbate y'know? :) ) 13:32:51 Then stop :) 13:33:07 ( not that there's something wrong with masturbation now and again ) 13:33:14 ok Zhivago, i'll try :) 13:33:51 -!- |doylent| [n=doylent@host46-130-dynamic.46-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:34:02 *splittist* guesses the nick isn't really parsed ISI Smelting. Pity. 13:34:20 *isismelting* laughs 13:34:29 nice one, splittist. 13:34:35 Is I Smelting? Yes. 13:35:01 -!- huk_fin [n=HukFin@61.17.164.209] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:35:11 you're extracting metals by means of heating? 13:35:20 snippyhollow [n=snippyho@203.160.1.71] has joined #lisp 13:35:25 and your grammar is poor? 13:35:40 I was speaking on your behalf. 13:36:01 oh - I'M extracting metals by means of heating? 13:36:20 i don't know if my alias is good grounds for poking fun 13:36:37 i thought it was kind of really bad ass - am i wrong? 13:36:57 not that i'm not the worst programmer in the channel 13:37:16 (see wouldn't that be something about which to poke fun) 13:37:22 isismelting: we usually don't talk about ourselves here. 13:37:46 dlowe - can we make a small exception while i ask you about your alias? 13:37:48 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 13:38:00 isismelting: my first initial and last name? sure. 13:38:26 hah okay - that's one of the coolest alias types in my opinion. 13:38:30 simple, short & sweet. 13:38:49 tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:57 but dlowe, you're not an awful programmer like me so you don't have to worry about defining yourself by some IRC nick. 13:39:03 there's a more social venue at #lispcafe 13:39:03 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 13:39:19 ah - all right. 13:39:29 apologies friends 13:40:02 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 13:40:05 Good afternoon 13:40:18 'afternoon spiaggia 13:43:00 segv [n=mb@p4FC1E57C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:08 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1E57C.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 13:44:00 sellout- [n=greg@c-67-186-133-123.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:26 is anyone aware of non-threadsafety things that affect hunchentoot on ccl with many concurrent connections? with ab -c 10, I'm getting lots of errors about string-output-streams not being STRUCTs. 13:44:44 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:45:07 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:45:17 legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-32-137.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:47:41 antifuchs pasted "ccl hunchentoot thread safety string-stream fail" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78304 13:49:55 antifuchs: scary 13:50:00 H4ns: it is. 13:50:13 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-1-58.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:50:21 H4ns: like the paste says, it works very well at low concurrency, but fails immediately at -c 10 13:50:38 gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-95-53-179-102.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:51:23 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-95-53-181-160.vologda.ru] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:51:31 antifuchs: handle-incoming-connection or client-as-string seem to be non-reentrant, but i fail to see why this could be the case. 13:51:35 and oh: it's in the hunchentoot listener thread, apparently. the abort restart kills the server. 13:51:43 -!- sai [n=sunnyvis@122.183.67.149] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:52:03 antifuchs: yes. it happens while the acceptor thread tries to create a new worker for an incoming connection. 13:52:13 ok, that makes sense 13:52:41 antifuchs: which is even more scary insofar as the creation process does not access global data and runs sequentially. 13:53:10 antifuchs: what does the handler do? 13:53:29 yeah, it looks more like CCL::CREATE-STRING-OUTPUT-STREAM-IOBLOCK gets something corrupted 13:53:31 that seems like a bug in ccl's streams 13:53:52 ndan [n=ndan@pool-151-201-12-95.pitt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:04 it fetches a few rows through postmodern, and returns a big json string 13:54:11 that is, encoded by st-json 13:54:26 this isn't the most minimal test case. 13:54:28 hang on. 13:54:48 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.109] has joined #lisp 13:57:32 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 14:00:20 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.19.83] has joined #lisp 14:00:31 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.19.83] has quit [Client Quit] 14:00:33 antifuchs annotated #78304 "Here's a smaller test case. ccl, darwin x86_64." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78304#1 14:01:31 H4ns: this gives me different errors (got one saying the stream is closed, and another one leading to ccl quitting) 14:01:46 antifuchs: last svn version of ccl? 14:01:59 antifuchs: sounds like a ccl bug to me in any case 14:02:01 yesterday's. I'll update. 14:02:14 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:02:18 ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:32 -!- ndan is now known as nadan 14:03:23 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:25 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 14:04:05 -!- quamaretto [n=millij@70.228.181.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:04:29 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:04:52 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176149627.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:04:53 whois Athas 14:05:15 febeling_ [n=febeling@p5B25C5D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:49 I am only me! 14:06:46 antifuchs: seems to be an osx problem, not issues on freebsd/x86 14:06:58 -!- febeling [n=febeling@p5B25EE66.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:07:13 newlisper [n=wschroed@128.252.233.244] has joined #lisp 14:07:14 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.173.243] has joined #lisp 14:07:16 H4ns annotated #78304 "FreeBSD results" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78304#2 14:07:24 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:07:34 how far has macintosh common lisp sunk: it works better on x86 heathen OSes than on the finest macintoshes. 14:07:37 *antifuchs* jests 14:07:42 -!- sellout- [n=greg@c-67-186-133-123.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:07:48 :p 14:08:43 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 14:10:29 Athas: sorry, I was telling some students who the participants on #lisp are, and I forgot the / 14:11:00 Athas: it is a pleasure when students spontaneously come and ask questions in order to learn more about CLIM/McCLIM/ESA, etc. 14:11:12 ok, I'll report this to the ccl development list 14:11:22 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 14:11:44 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:13:00 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 14:13:53 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:56 5 files! 14:16:22 -!- nadan is now known as nadn 14:19:34 Krystof: ! (I hope your progress isn't asymptotic) 14:19:47 so do I 14:20:20 also, once I'm down to 0 I will still have to fix genesis, which might involve lots of Thinking Very Hard 14:24:00 -!- febeling_ [n=febeling@p5B25C5D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 14:24:03 -!- nadn is now known as nadan 14:25:03 rullie_ [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176149011.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:26:59 -!- nadan [n=ndan@unaffiliated/nadan] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:27:42 nadan [n=ndan@pool-151-201-12-95.pitt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:59 so i'm curious whether lisp macros have been or could be (ab)used to build a full static type system in lisp? 14:28:16 whois chessguy_work 14:28:20 Whoops :) 14:28:23 heh 14:28:28 nobody important :) 14:28:39 cheeseguy_work: I wonder if CLOS would qualify. 14:28:50 he's a chessguy. And he's at work. That's all you need to know 14:29:07 vixey [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:29:10 i don't know, i'm a lisp n00b, so not terribly familiar with the different implementations 14:29:11 Yeah, should have figured. 14:29:38 WastePotato [n=WastePot@unaffiliated/wastepotato] has joined #lisp 14:30:29 -!- WastePotato [n=WastePot@unaffiliated/wastepotato] has left #lisp 14:30:45 i dunno, seems like a natural thing to me, you could have your (static-checking) cake and eat (ignore) it too. but then i've spent a lot of time in haskell 14:31:37 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A519.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:12 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483FCB2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:09 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 14:33:47 -!- doylent [n=doylent@host252-6-dynamic.46-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 14:35:21 lisp macros are probably the wrong tool. On the other hand, there are static-checking (Qi) and proof-checking (ACL2) languages that are implemented in and interoperate with Lisp 14:35:39 and probably some of their implementation involves macros. So maybe "yes" is the answer 14:36:02 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176149627.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:37:53 -!- rullie_ is now known as rullie 14:39:36 Krystof, i'm curious why you think macros are the wrong tool. not disagreeing, just trying to learn 14:40:21 well, macros on their own are just code transformations. You can't get anything really new out of them; you can only write code that you could have written anyway 14:40:35 sure 14:40:48 but i'm assuming they can throw compile-time errors 14:40:50 Krystof: *shhhh* you'll ruin the magic. 14:41:12 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:41:17 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student165-229.hampshire.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:41:19 lol, he's not telling me anything new yet :) 14:41:35 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-241-63.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:42:04 eniu [n=niujin@218.247.128.9] has joined #lisp 14:42:34 so if they can do that, they can do type-verification, and probably some type inference 14:42:47 and throw exceptions if the types don't match 14:42:56 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.247.134] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:43:03 chessguy_work: and how would macros keep track of type information? 14:43:29 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:32 in cltl1 lisps, they could use environments (: 14:43:35 -!- maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:43:39 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.238.148] has joined #lisp 14:43:42 my thinking is that there would be a small library which would wrap standard function declaration with the ability to declare typed functions 14:43:53 chessguy_work: SBCL already does some type inference. Thankfully, inference works nicely in a dynamic type system. 14:43:54 ah, cltl2. damn typos 14:43:57 then you could use it or not 14:44:49 sellout, it also doesn't detect bugs that could be detected automatically 14:45:14 anyway, i don't want to get sucked into this debate 14:45:16 just curious 14:45:32 chessguy_work: agreed ... just pointing out that inference and static typing are orthogonal, and some CLs already have the former to an extent. 14:46:09 cool. good stuff 14:47:01 i just remember Abelman building this whole thing in an SICP lecture, which was basically a hacked-up type system without macros, and i thought "surely there's a better way to do this" 14:47:26 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 14:48:34 sellout: I think it's time for a new release of B-T 14:49:42 nis [n=nicolas@91-165-136-189.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:46 fe[nl]ix: Good call. I'll reuse the old "make a new release of B-T" item that's been on my tasklist forever ;) 14:50:01 B-T? 14:50:30 -!- pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:50:38 chessguy_work: Bordeaux-threads ... portable threading interface. 14:50:51 nice 14:50:55 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:51:12 *shrug* necessary, at least 14:51:16 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@82-69-19-185.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit ["this is not a quit message"] 14:51:36 Save "nice" for the guys working on better concurrency abstractions ;) 14:52:01 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483FCB2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:52:19 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A519.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:52:58 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 14:53:16 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:51 what would come to your mind when you talk about better concurrency abstractions? 14:57:23 i'd like to see a common lisp with coroutines 14:57:25 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.199.226] has joined #lisp 15:00:06 ThomasI: the actor model, at the very least. 15:00:30 Even better, some process calculus, like that in the Pict language. 15:01:08 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:04:30 thanks :) 15:12:13 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:14:25 fe[nl]ix: bordeaux-threads_0.6.0.tar.gz is now available. 15:14:57 4 files! 15:17:48 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:19:25 Krystof: What are you working on? 15:21:28 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:22:09 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:22:29 Krystof: counting bignum weirdity? 15:24:24 oh, I fixed that one 15:24:43 sellout: getting bit-for-bit identical fasls in sbcl's build process, no matter which is the host compiler 15:25:15 Krystof: what was the problem, finally? 15:25:24 there's a maphash at the end of src/compiler/pack.lisp 15:25:46 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:25:59 it meant that repacks to eliminate moves didn't happen in a deterministic order 15:26:41 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 15:26:49 Ijeroj [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:26:54 good stuff. Makes me reconsider some plans to introduce heuristic procedures in the compiler ;) 15:26:55 53 files changed, 550 insertions(+), 551 deletions(-) 15:27:07 -!- mxb [n=mxb@unaffiliated/mxb] has quit ["zzzz"] 15:27:23 -!- Joreji [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:27:24 you dare and I will hunt you down and become more powerful than you can possibly imagine 15:27:25 no, wait 15:28:04 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.173.243] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:28:52 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-82-197.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:29:08 anyway, I don't mind deterministic heuristics 15:29:12 Does IOlib really have a multiplexer? There's no mention of it in the (scanty) documentation 15:29:20 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483FCB2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:36 dlowe: yes, it has 15:29:39 genetic algorithms? Not so much. Unless you write a portable RNG too 15:29:40 Krystof: just have to include my own PRNG. 15:30:38 somewhat to my surprise, the remaining files divide into two: the easy cases (src/code/print.lisp and src/code/irrat.lisp) where I understand what's going on 15:30:54 and src/compiler/x86/insts.lisp and src/compiler/x86/pred.lisp, each of which has differences that are completely mysterious to me 15:31:46 -!- legumbre` is now known as legumbre 15:33:14 -!- ljosa [n=ljosa@gm3b6-dd5.broad.mit.edu] has quit [] 15:34:38 pkhuong: if you are interested, though, I'm fairly sure that genesis is broken in some similar way 15:35:17 there are plenty of maphashes in there, but I can't see how an ordering different from sbcl's can cause heap corruption in cold-init 15:35:36 -!- Ijeroj [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:35:54 -!- quotemstr_ [n=quotemst@cpe-67-246-181-235.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [] 15:35:55 Not for a couple weeks still. 15:36:12 I hope I'll have it sorted by then 15:36:16 *Krystof* touches wood 15:36:33 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:37:08 how different are the cold-cores? 15:38:09 the good news is that they're the same size 15:39:01 dlowe: there's #iolib if you need help 15:39:06 csr21@omega:~/sbcl-git (repeatable-build)$ cmp output/cold-clisp-sbcl.core output/cold-sbcl-sbcl.core 15:39:06 output/cold-clisp-sbcl.core output/cold-sbcl-sbcl.core differ: byte 141, line 1 15:39:26 uh, I wasn't expecting a difference _that_ early. That's probably something trivial 15:39:27 fe[nl]ix: given the documentation, I'm not convinced it will make my life easier 15:39:42 -!- wchogg_ [n=wchogg@h216-165-144-151.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:39:51 especially having to track down a copy of texinfo-docstrings :p 15:40:43 can anyone recommend a hex editor that can cope with 26MB files? 15:40:45 and figure out how to use it. 15:41:11 Krystof: hex-mode 15:41:46 Krystof: actually it's hexl-mode 15:42:23 we can assume that I know about emacs, but unfortunately it freezes with my 26MB file 15:42:25 Krystof: if http://freshmeat.net/projects/lfhex/ doens't do it, I'll be disappointed by humanity 15:42:35 oh no, tell a lie; it has managed to open it 15:42:37 "doesn't" grml 15:43:23 and realize that you have to build it to even get the documentation 15:43:42 criminey, CL libs really are a mess on packaging :p 15:43:45 <_death> Krystof: biew 15:44:25 dlowe: don't generalise from the reprobates. lichtblau, Xach and edi are fine counterexamples 15:44:59 <_death> dlowe: iolib's code is fairly easy to understand 15:44:59 dlowe: documentation is at http://common-lisp.net/project/iolib/manual/ 15:45:03 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["leaving"] 15:45:12 dlowe: it's even downloadable 15:45:22 _death: that's a lot of investment for deciding whether or not to even look at a library 15:45:34 I think it's a valid generalisation to say that auto-documentation packages are often the worst documented ones (-: 15:45:37 <_death> dlowe: suit yourself.. worked for me 15:45:47 fe[nl]ix: it doesn't mention multiplexing either, so I figured it was out of date 15:46:01 Krystof: the one I use is a little thing called VCHE. It isn't much, but I'm certain it can deal with such a file. 15:46:04 Krystof: I know. I like to think my own libraries are easy to unpackage, too 15:46:38 *dlowe* has only been here for six years. 15:47:24 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:48:26 milanj [n=milan@93.86.186.162] has joined #lisp 15:53:14 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p4FD2A715.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:53:33 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:50 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 15:56:35 jsnell: ok, that first difference is the word count for the dynamic-space in the respective cores 15:57:19 -!- yain [n=yain@77.35.234.45] has quit [] 15:57:27 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:58:00 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@host148-131-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 15:59:40 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-82-197.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 16:00:18 guille_ [n=user@98.Red-79-156-117.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:48 -!- guille_ [n=user@98.Red-79-156-117.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 16:00:51 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:01:06 dtangren [n=dtangren@c-76-125-177-14.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:22 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@c-76-125-177-14.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:02:45 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:02:56 guys, I was atilla's tool for locating memory leak, and I was quite surprised that the references to the object not collected were lambda lists - e.g initialize-instance :after and one lambda list of funcall. When I removed the initialize-instance :after and passed the object to funcall as *special*, I now have just one reference from mine bound defvar which is ok. But even when I makunbound the only one reference, it is still not 16:02:56 collected until I completely stop the threads. Any ideas why it's collected only when I stop the threads even when it looks like it has no references? 16:03:45 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:03:52 Good evening. 16:03:53 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:04:44 tic [n=tic@c83-249-195-183.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:05:11 oh, haha. Look what someone wrote at line 990 of src/code/irrat.lisp 16:05:53 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:05:56 I mean - is it even possible with current SBCL GC to have no leaks? Is it normal practise to reboot machines once in a while? 16:06:16 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:06:28 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 16:07:37 is there a place in clhs that discusses the differences between compound values that can be shared between (generalized) variables (like a cons or an object) and simple values that can't (like a number) ? 16:07:40 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p4FD2A715.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:07:42 md1: my first guess would be that atilla's tool is incomplete in its coverage of memory references, and so it is misleading you 16:07:52 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p4FD2A715.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:07:53 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-195-183.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 16:08:07 tic [n=tic@c83-249-195-183.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:08:24 Krystof: that's quite possible. 16:08:36 Krystof: that CSR guy obviously knew a thing or two... 16:09:27 or - is it possible that sb-vm::instance-usage lies in it's output? 16:09:33 almost certainly 16:09:56 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 16:10:16 Krystof: and, there is probably no way to get more precise output? 16:10:20 heh. did I say I don't want to be using linux? I'm setting up an ubuntu vm now so I can work on boinkmarks in a sane OS (: 16:10:34 md1: hacking the system so that it lies less? 16:10:41 instrumenting the garbage collector? 16:10:57 how is the code determining whether an object has a reference to another? 16:11:16 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 16:11:34 antifuchs: you want to be using the linux. 16:11:40 (or if somebody can point me to the code, I can check myself) 16:11:46 yeah, something like that 16:12:03 I want to be using the OS I'm going to end up deploying the software in. 16:12:14 no, you want to switch to python 16:12:20 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:12:30 jsnell: here is the link: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-dwim/darcs/cl-dwim/util/path-to-root.lisp 16:12:36 I am well aware of the r-word folly in my actions, thanks (: 16:12:57 jsnell: first (build-reference-map) 16:13:15 at least I was using openmcl on the mac (-: 16:13:19 then (path-to-root object) with object which is not gced 16:15:55 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:01 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:16:17 at least that code is ignoring references from structs 16:16:23 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 16:17:07 you'd need to add a case for sb-vm::instance to build-reference-map for that 16:17:42 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p4FD2A715.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["I am Locutus of Borg! You will assist us!"] 16:17:44 see sbcl/src/code/room.lisp:map-referenced-objects for a rough idea of what that'd look like 16:17:56 ok, I can try my best. But I am no sbcl hacker. 16:18:06 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 16:18:38 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 16:18:39 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:19:08 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-30-70.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:20:34 Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp 16:25:04 Randy_ [n=chatzill@dD5766A48.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:27:04 -!- Randy_ [n=chatzill@dD5766A48.access.telenet.be] has quit [Client Quit] 16:27:20 Randy_ [n=chatzill@dD5766A48.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:27:21 -!- Randy_ is now known as crimson13 16:27:28 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 16:27:37 -!- crimson13 [n=chatzill@dD5766A48.access.telenet.be] has quit [Client Quit] 16:27:44 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:27:54 crimson13 [n=chatzill@dD5766A48.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:28:17 Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:28:27 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:29:37 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:29:44 -!- Jarv2 is now known as Jarvellis 16:30:23 -!- crimson13 [n=chatzill@dD5766A48.access.telenet.be] has left #lisp 16:30:31 crimson13 [n=chatzill@dD5766A48.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:30:56 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 16:34:31 -!- crimson13 [n=chatzill@dD5766A48.access.telenet.be] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609]"] 16:34:48 maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has joined #lisp 16:37:28 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:37:56 -!- sellout is now known as Guest17315 16:38:24 anyone got a sbcl to hand on a machine with non-confusing floating point? i.e. no scary 80-bit mode which might confuse the issue? 16:39:14 sure 16:39:21 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:40:12 what's (/ least-positive-double-float double-float-epsilon)? 16:40:30 actually double-float-low-bits of that is what I'm really interested in 16:41:01 4294967294 16:41:17 interesting 16:42:03 OK, I will take the computer's word for it 16:43:26 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.238.148] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:43:48 trust the computer, the computer is your friend 16:44:16 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E441D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:23 -!- eniu [n=niujin@218.247.128.9] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:45:40 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 16:46:46 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:46:55 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:01 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@175.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 16:53:36 sometimes I doubt that 16:53:56 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 16:54:09 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-212-45.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:55:21 that sounds like treason, citizen 16:59:17 jsnell: actually, at the end of etypecase in build-reference-map there is (or sb-vm::instance ...) so Atilla probably skipped that for a reason 16:59:52 because now I have added (sb-vm::instance 16:59:52 (dotimes (i (sb-kernel:%instance-length object)) 16:59:52 (push-reference (sb-kernel:%instance-ref object i)))) to the case and it corrupts heap instantly 17:01:34 -!- tombom [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 17:03:24 that probably fails on raw slots. 17:04:08 doesn't sb-pcl:slot-object also mean structure-slot? 17:04:09 jsnell: Are you sure that's treason? How are you cleared to know that? 17:04:20 willb1 [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:50 in defs.lisp, structure-object inherits from slot-object 17:07:18 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a6539b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9ddb735a9b122b6b] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 17:07:51 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 17:08:15 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@ppp-70-253-81-73.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:08:56 pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has joined #lisp 17:09:52 You have to skip the last (sb-kernel:layout-n-untagged-slots (sb-kernel:%instance-layout object)) slots. 17:10:39 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-210-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:11:08 mxb [n=mxb@bealbywm.plus.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:48 I think a structure instance isn't really a slot-object 17:11:52 pkhuong: ok, will try that 17:11:58 clim draw-text* 17:11:59 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/12-5.html#_637 17:12:04 that pcl inheritance is a convenient fiction for clos implementation purposes 17:12:15 it just seems to work like that for the purposes of method dispatch, but that's not actually in the type system 17:12:27 ah, ok. 17:12:53 (I might well zap slot-object entirely one day; it serves mostly to confuse) 17:14:34 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:14:42 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:14:44 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-30-70.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 17:14:49 argh. the listener won't let me resize it wider than 790 pixels. I wonder when this happened. 17:15:00 Joreji [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:15:41 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:16:18 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:16:23 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@138-11.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["and so to bed^Whome"] 17:16:47 hefner: re: ADL, from yesterday. I've always thought it would be nice if multiple separately defined generic functions could be merged into one automatically. I realize there's some practical difficulties (esp in CL), but it seems like something that could be made to work. :) 17:19:36 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:20:19 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:21:19 How do I leave a message for someone on the #lisp bot? 17:21:26 foom: I suppose that's rational in a world where code comes from all over and can't centrally coordinate fairly generic terms 17:21:51 minion: help memo 17:21:51 To send a memo, say something like ``minion: memo for nick: the memo''. I'll remember the memo for any nick which is the same as the given nick, +/- differences in punctuation, and any nick which is an alias for it, and give it to them when they next speak. 17:23:21 pkhuong: Thank you. 17:23:33 foom: although I have trouble thinking of functions you can meaningful combine aside from things like NAME, DESCRIPTION, or perhaps PARENT/CHILDREN-OF 17:24:58 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:24:58 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:24:58 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:24:58 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:24:58 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:24:58 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:24:58 -!- deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:24:58 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:24:58 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:24:58 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:24:58 -!- michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:24:58 -!- kg4qxk [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:24:58 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:26:11 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 17:26:51 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E44F53.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:26 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:27:35 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-30-70.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:28:53 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:44 Ogedei [n=user@g225144017.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:29:51 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:30:15 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 17:30:35 ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 17:30:49 minion: memo for p0a: To retrieve the dimensions of the SDL display surface, use sdl:width and sdl:height on sdl:*default-display*. 17:30:50 Remembered. I'll tell p0a when he/she/it next speaks. 17:31:46 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:31:50 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.248.31] has quit ["leaving"] 17:35:28 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:35:44 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:37:32 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 17:38:07 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 17:38:53 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:41:08 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:01 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E441D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:45:11 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:46:14 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 17:47:54 Ijeroj [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:48:11 -!- Joreji [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:48:30 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:44 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-105-126.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:03 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:52:51 Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 17:55:28 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:56:19 hah. sneak peek: http://mublag.boinkor.net/post/17007299/What-Im-currently-working-on-This-is 17:57:21 (meaning: success! I'm in ur visualizn ur slowdowns) 17:57:26 cheater! that's a .png, not a canvas! 17:57:40 it is in my local browser (-; 17:59:07 anyway, I'm very happy: this is /fast/, and way more sensible than what autobench does right now. 17:59:37 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:02:38 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:34 neat. 18:03:51 kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:00 WebGuest [n=WebGuest@c-0f5fe353.732-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:04:01 next stop is clickable data points. then, multiple line graphs, and detail views 18:05:11 and draggable? 18:06:23 and annotable ? 18:06:35 -!- mxb [n=mxb@unaffiliated/mxb] has quit ["zzz"] 18:07:01 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:07:45 draggable via commits to the sbcl code base (: 18:07:55 annotatable points. interesting idea. maybe. 18:08:25 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-197-216-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:09:11 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 18:09:11 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:09:11 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:11 deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 18:09:11 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 18:09:11 kg4qxk [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 18:09:11 michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #lisp 18:09:17 hey, there's an idea. you show the results over time as a 3d surface, and clicking the edges on the time axis takes you to that commit. =p 18:10:09 (that's for all the benchmarks together, I guess) 18:11:09 "I know this! It's a UNIX system!" 18:11:18 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:11:19 whoa (: 18:11:59 IRIX FTW! 18:13:03 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 18:13:07 ejs [n=eugen@172-153-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:23 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 18:13:49 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 18:17:11 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-3008cc06be970047] has joined #lisp 18:17:14 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@p5B0BE884.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:20 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:23:46 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:23:47 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 18:23:56 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:24:26 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-17-59.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:56 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:26:03 Man, someone needs to start #lisp-books -- four people have contacted my about writing Lisp books since O'Reilly announced at the ILC that they're interested in them again. 18:26:41 are you responding? 18:26:42 They want to be co-authors? 18:26:57 kreuter: with friendly encouragement. 18:27:10 beach: one did. Others just wanted advice. 18:27:13 so you don't think PCL is the last word on Lisp books? :) 18:27:19 Not sure I really have much good advice. 18:27:43 kreuter: Nah. Though I personally don't have any ideas for Lisp books that would have a *bigger* audience than PCL. 18:27:49 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:27:53 But I probably lack imagination. 18:27:55 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A4E8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:27:58 -!- snippyhollow [n=snippyho@203.160.1.71] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:28:04 gigamonkey: your next book really ought to be called "Impractical Common Lisp" :-) 18:28:12 snippyhollow [n=snippyho@203.160.1.71] has joined #lisp 18:28:26 TNL 18:28:28 kpreid: considered it. But in deference to minion it has to be More Practical Common Lisp 18:28:30 tantalizing new lisp 18:28:47 as cheap as for a peanut 18:28:51 lol 18:29:43 gentle intro to common-lisp is a good book 18:31:45 "Pretty-Printer for Dummies" 18:31:53 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:32:12 lisp in pieces 18:32:26 "parenthesis unite"? 18:32:27 *crunch crunch crunch* 18:33:04 no maam i'm not the cookie monster 18:33:10 lol 18:33:51 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-164-65.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:34:18 where's kermit ? 18:34:34 on stage, on-backstage ? 18:34:40 lol 18:34:44 xyblor [n=nik@69-196-189-64.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 18:35:19 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 18:35:22 You're annoying. Could you please stop that one-man show? 18:35:51 ewwww, so i have to hire more ? 18:35:59 sheeet 18:36:46 clim sheeet 18:36:47 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for sheeet. 18:36:52 clim sheet 18:36:53 Multiple entries found. Try looking up one of: "sheet,Protocol Class", "sheet,Concept" 18:38:32 clim sheet-disown-child 18:38:32 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/7-2.html#_252 18:38:36 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:43 clim sheet-mute-output-mixin 18:38:44 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/8-3.html#_409 18:41:23 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:41:28 morning again 18:41:32 hello splittist 18:42:15 beach: when is a good time of year to visit Bordeaux? 18:42:15 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:42:24 now! 18:42:40 splittist: Avoid January. 18:43:44 beach: well, I've succeeded in that for this year, at least. 18:44:11 Oh, *this* year! That depends on whether you want me to be here or not. 18:44:27 *hefner* wonders if he rebroke the ability to change packages in the listener 18:44:27 I'll be away most of June. 18:44:37 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E4647D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:27 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:52 Hmmm. June is both too near and too far away for planning. But I'll bear it in mind (: 18:46:41 splittist: any time before that is fine, but the guest room is booked until end of May. 18:47:36 splittist: I suspect we won't go anyware in July and August, and our house has AC, so that's fine. 18:49:00 GrayMagiker [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:32 josemanuel [n=josemanu@115.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:53:42 If I deploy a lisp package on github, is there a recommended process for how to get it onto cliki? Is there a recommended naming for packages? 18:55:00 Heh, and is there some kind of (community?) quality filter my code needs to pass? 18:55:25 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:55:53 newlisper: not sure really, but I think the answer to all of that is 'no' 18:56:35 newlisper: nope (: 18:57:17 I'm sure the recommended process for getting on cliki involves creating a page on cliki 18:57:19 hmm, my objects are still not collected. Even with checking structure slots now, Atilla's path-to-root reports 0 references, except for the object with all slots unbound which has reference to standard-class. However, when I terminate threads, they got collected. Why is it so? Seems like some "undetectable" reference is bound to thread presence. Any ideas what that might be? 18:57:24 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@115.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 18:58:30 Is there anything stopping people from being bad citizens on cliki? (I am guessing Revision Control is the answer.) Just concerned. 18:58:41 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:00:19 -!- GrayMagiker [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:00:30 there aren't any documented instances of an angry mob running the offender out of town for bad cliki etiquette, if that's what you're thinking. 19:00:47 newlisper: packages are usually signed with gpg 19:01:07 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E44F53.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:01:24 dlowe: Oh, good tip. I noticed that at least half the ones I asdf-install aren't; I don't want to be annoying. :) 19:01:38 newlisper: being annoying is somewhat preferable in this case 19:02:07 dlowe: I meant -- I don't want to force people to have to answer a prompt about ignoring gpg just to install a package 19:02:08 unfortunately packages being gpg signed is rather useless without a keystore 19:02:16 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 19:02:32 foom: you at least know that the person who wrote the last install of your package is the same person 19:03:26 dlowe: Is there a way in asdf to restrict specific keys to avoid someone I have decided is evil? 19:03:57 newlisper: delete the key from your keyring? evil people can generate as many keys as they want 19:04:19 eni4ever [n=admin@79.114.50.29] has joined #lisp 19:04:40 -!- eni4ever [n=admin@79.114.50.29] has quit [Client Quit] 19:09:10 waaaaah 19:09:40 whatnow? 19:10:41 sbcl have shared heap - for all threads right? 19:10:42 I have something bizarre and unexpected, and I have no idea why 19:11:07 md1: yes. 19:11:08 I have a test in print.impure.lisp that works fine if I load the source file and fails if I do sh ./run-tests.sh print.impure.lisp 19:11:54 furthermore, it fails in a way it cannot possibly fail 19:11:54 I don't understand why sb-ext:quit in terminate-thread doesn't kill the sbcl, just that thread. 19:12:17 I assume there is some cleanup done after sb-ext:quit 19:12:37 Is there a way to invoke such cleanup for a specific thread? 19:13:08 after? 19:13:45 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-164-65.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:16:40 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-164-65.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 19:17:02 -!- ejs [n=eugen@172-153-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:17:15 Hm. I want to hack. But on what? 19:17:20 UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:35 some ideas for Lisp books: "FORMAT Unleashed", "Logical Pathnames for Dummies" 19:17:45 tic: help me fix my memory leak :/ 19:17:50 When will someone write the Perfect CMS(tm) so I don't have to spend my hacking energy on upgrading WordPress? :) 19:17:54 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:55 given a vector type, like STRING, is there any way to pull the element type out without actually creating a vector? 19:18:14 md1, I'm the wrong person, I'm afraid. Is it about threads not cleaning up? 19:18:38 cmm, meh, better just scrap pathnames altogether. I would like "LOOP for Dummies", however. 19:18:42 basically, when I stop threads, stuff get's collected, but not until then. 19:18:47 dlowe: all is not lost, you can memoize 19:19:08 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:19:28 cmm: if the type is (array 15000000000), I'd prefer not to create one. 19:19:43 oh. point 19:19:56 dlowe: the element type isn't specified for STRING. You could handle the cases you're interested in with subtypep. 19:21:14 pkhuong: that doesn't help me when it's (vector widget 93) 19:21:36 so, how do you create a vector of an arbitrary type, anyways? 19:22:37 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:22:52 md1, *hmm* single threaded gc? 19:22:56 you asked how you can do it without creating a vector; how do you do it *with* creating a vector? 19:23:38 ejs [n=eugen@172-153-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:03 (progn (deftype my-vector (size) `(vector character ,size)) (defvar *a* (make-array 50 :element-type 'character)) (typep *a* '(my-vector 50))) => T 19:24:48 (destructuring-bind (vector element-type size) typespec (make-array :element-type element-type 0))? 19:24:49 tic: does sbcl have multithreaded one? I thought it just stops the world and collects everything in one thread. I this there is some reference to my objects hidden in thread local storage somehow? 19:24:49 of course, that doesn't make my-vector its "primary" type 19:25:26 dlowe: what are you actually trying to do? 19:25:28 dkcl [n=dkcl@172.66.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:25:39 Krystof: create a sane initial value for loop variables regardless of type 19:25:50 you can't 19:25:57 md1, I have no idea here, I'm just guessing and hoping some of the local SBCL people will pick up on it and give you the proper answer. 19:26:03 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:26:11 yeah, don't do that: just initialize them to some +no-value+ object or something 19:26:13 instead, fix LOOP so that the declaration only applies once the user-supplied value has been bound to the variable 19:26:21 Krystof: create a conforming initial value, then :p 19:26:33 no, you're not thinking straight 19:26:33 foom: it already does that 19:26:34 tic: thanks for that :) 19:26:39 it's unspecified what the initial value is 19:26:49 you don't want an initial value that is of the of-type type 19:27:02 you want the of-type type to apply only once the user-supplied value has arrived 19:27:12 md1, note that I'm not mocking or trolling - I too find it interesting, but since I can't really help I'm trying to explore the possibilities. 19:27:31 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Client Quit] 19:27:39 (and you also hope that use of the variable before it's been initialized is a loud error, at least at runtime) 19:28:02 foom: thanks, I've actually read the spec of what I'm attempting to do. 19:28:31 tic: I know you are not trolling, you don't have the right trolling style :) 19:28:39 Krystof: thanks, I'm trying to work with what sb-loop has, instead of rewriting the whole thing 19:29:01 well, you can't 19:29:19 I'm sorry that the world is not in accordance with your wishes 19:29:24 -!- kg4qxk [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:29:29 md1, so, do you have a Crouching TLS, Hidden Object somewhere? 19:29:32 well...you can certainly add even more hacks to what's already there 19:29:35 Krystof: *shrug* I think I can. 19:29:38 foom: that's the idea 19:30:01 Krystof: I'm sorry you see a simple disagreement as a violation of your ontological security 19:30:28 dlow: you seem to be getting way too defensive 19:31:41 -!- WebGuest [n=WebGuest@c-0f5fe353.732-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:32:11 tic: yes, basically no reference seems to be alive according to a heap walker. But still objects are not collected until I stop the threads. 19:32:55 tic: I have wasted a whole *week* on this. It's the last step before we go online. 19:32:59 md1, "meh". Can you figure out what exactly happens when a thread is stopped? If there are no live objects, it shouldn't be the culpirit. 19:33:15 md1, oh wow! sucks to be you. :/ 19:33:33 :) 19:33:47 foom: Krystof is the one picking a fight here :p 19:33:55 *dlowe* is just hacking code. 19:34:22 keep cool guys 19:34:23 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 19:34:32 tic: I would really like to know what happens when threads quit, but it seems just like ordinary sb-unix:unix-exit 19:34:49 md1, trace sb-int? heh. 19:34:52 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Client Quit] 19:35:13 tic: sb-unix:unix-exit is just a FFI call 19:35:31 but it causes that stuff gets released 19:35:32 md1, oh, so that's all it does? thought more happened. 19:35:41 SBCL does strange stuff with signals, I've heard. 19:35:56 tic: yes, I can imagine :/ 19:36:16 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-164-65.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:36:23 jao [n=jao@obfw.oblong.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:12 tic: but I just don't understand - sbcl has shared heap, quitting a thread should have no effect like this unless there is *some* local storage for thread 19:37:27 but I guess it's reserved for sbcl stuff only 19:38:04 sure there's local storage, there's a stack and wherever the special variables live 19:38:40 so, anyways: why not just change the default initialization form from nil to 'foo; then the type of the loop variable would be '(or (eql foo) ) which users wouldn't run into. 19:39:09 foom: just hoping to trigger the proper optimizations 19:39:15 -!- Ogedei [n=user@g225144017.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:39:30 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-164.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 19:39:36 md1, can't you follow the thread library (sb-thread?) and see if it abuses your thread? 19:39:57 tic: yes, I can check that 19:40:04 So it's fine if it's not general, then 19:40:25 pick off the easy cases and leave the rest for someone who wants to fix loop properly? :) 19:40:34 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:40:36 foom: that's even more hackish than I was planning 19:42:23 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-164.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:42:50 *shrug*. just supporting the type 'vector covers almost everything 19:43:25 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 19:43:27 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.199.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:44:42 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-164-65.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 19:48:37 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 19:49:14 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:37 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host60-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 19:50:06 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-99-33-30-119.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:51:00 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-15.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 19:51:35 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:52:07 Ragnaroek [i=54a66684@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fe8ead4e8a62c23b] has joined #lisp 19:59:36 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 19:59:44 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-38-156.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:59:56 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-181-117-206.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:17 a defmethod can't specialize on a deftype, can it? 20:00:48 not in general. There are various academic papers about how one might do that, but nothing desperately convenient in shipping lisps today 20:01:11 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-99-33-30-119.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:21 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-99-33-30-119.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:01:22 doylent [n=doylent@host252-6-dynamic.46-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:02:13 gilberth [n=gilbert@d005026.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 20:02:34 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-17-59.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:06:14 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:06:32 boo. 20:06:49 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-51-198.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 20:06:50 hoo! 20:07:16 benny [n=benny@i577A113A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:08:41 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.2.129] has joined #lisp 20:09:11 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:09:13 on the mailing list, I noticed someone posted a codeswarm of the commit history of sbcl, here are similar videos of pypy project, http://www.vimeo.com/1241231 20:09:13 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 20:09:38 I bring it up because they use a sprint driven development model, http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2008/06/pypy-code-swarm.html 20:09:46 for what is (the ...) needed? 20:10:05 I think the sbcl project could benefit from such sprints, also I would enjoy attending it and learning more about the project 20:10:42 DeusExPikachu: the developers are fairly well distributed around the world. 20:10:43 md1, any luck? 20:10:45 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 20:11:06 Ragnaroek: for specifying types 20:11:48 tic: well, I was looking at sb-thread, no change to understand really what's going on 20:11:57 pkhuong, yeah that is a concern. Pypy deals with that problem by having supporters from python, google etc. to provide housing and subsidies for transportation 20:12:06 tic: but I have removed all dynamic-extend declarations 20:12:13 md1, helped any? 20:12:22 not checked yet 20:12:51 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0E272.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:06 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0E272.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:13:11 md1, then what are you waiting for!one 20:14:07 tic: yes, I am working on it. the iteration loop takes a while 20:14:07 is it for optimization (only) 20:14:52 well, it could do type-checking too, but that's implementation specific 20:15:04 rule0 [n=rule0@85.108.196.8] has joined #lisp 20:16:00 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.252.175] has joined #lisp 20:17:03 pkhuong: have you ever come across this one? The wexerciser-0-8-7 test case from print.impure.lisp is currently failing for me, but _only_ in an sbcl with asdf and sb-posix loaded (as in the run-tests) 20:17:24 if I load fewer contribs (say just by loading print.impure.lisp by hand) or more (by requiring sb-simple-streams) then the test doesn't fail 20:17:37 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:18:26 even weirder: the way it fails is the method that is removed explicitly (it really is, I checked) still seems to be called: I get an error saying "gotcha coming" on the "~@W" test, when that method should be long gone 20:18:28 *Krystof* is baffled 20:18:38 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:18:42 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 20:21:48 tic: eh, no, did not help :( 20:22:10 tic: maybe tomorrow :/ 20:22:19 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A1C83.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:22:46 md1, loop have run through, or you'll give it another shot? ;) 20:22:54 md1, any ideas on what strategy to choose? 20:23:20 tic: not really. I am on this thing for a whole week. 20:23:25 tic: out of ideas 20:23:40 md1, let's hope there are some sbcl hackers around that can help. 20:23:56 tic: that would help a lot 20:24:08 thanks for tips thought! 20:24:30 cheers 20:24:32 -!- md1 [n=user@stip-srk131.195-146-143.telecom.sk] has left #lisp 20:25:47 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 20:26:14 -!- Guest17315 [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 20:26:19 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 20:26:30 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E4647D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:26:48 -!- rule0 [n=rule0@85.108.196.8] has left #lisp 20:30:33 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:33:45 mjf [n=mjf@r6cs96.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 20:34:12 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 20:34:30 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 20:35:03 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:38:22 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:39:02 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:41 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 20:40:04 -!- snippyhollow [n=snippyho@203.160.1.71] has quit ["night, morning :)"] 20:44:29 crappy Firefox core dumps pretty often. If it were written in Lisp we would at least have a restart. 20:45:02 (incf *beach*) 20:45:04 beach: now start writing 20:45:59 well, gilberth starded Closure, but we need more people. 20:45:59 damn linux, if it were written in Lisp it'd be more fun 20:46:00 beach, os x ? 20:46:25 beach: there are other, faster, less crashy browsesrs 20:46:28 perhaps I should look at Closure one day... 20:46:31 *rsynnott* recommends opera 20:46:35 No, GNU/Linux/Unbuntu 20:46:52 (or Chrome, but that is, irritatingly, still win32 only) 20:46:53 way more people, i guess. 20:46:57 lazz0 [n=blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has joined #lisp 20:46:58 the new Safari is okay 20:47:16 rsynnott: on Linux? 20:47:20 hmm, offter crashes 20:47:26 nah, no safari for linux 20:47:35 opera for linux, though :) 20:47:45 both safari and ff suck on osx 20:47:51 gilberth: hey, good to see you here! 20:48:06 beach: Hi there. 20:48:10 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:48:15 emacs-w3m is good for browsing clhs, what else do you need? 20:48:45 -!- ejs [n=eugen@172-153-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:49:10 stassats: there are other websites ;) 20:49:33 gilberth: still no Common Lisp programming projects? 20:49:51 beach: free or money-making? 20:50:17 gilberth: Whatever, I am just making conversation :) 20:50:24 rsynnott: screw 'em, they only distract from writing in lisp 20:50:36 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-6-170.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 20:52:24 beach: if firefox were written in lisp, it'd crash sporadically when the heap filled up 20:52:59 beach: btw here is the promised url: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.29.4395 20:53:05 hefner: why would it do that? 20:53:49 and if firefox were written in Lisp, it would compile javascript to common lisp. 20:55:12 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:55:29 beach: Well, i have no new common lisp projects to add to the pile of all my unfinished ones. 20:55:35 hefner, wouldn't matter, Flash would kill us all long before. 20:56:03 that's true. 20:56:24 hefner: totally unlike firefox at the moment, then 20:56:37 rsynnott, :)) 20:57:32 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:57:56 gilberth: Looks good, though, I am not going to look at it right away, because this is a tough week. Remind me around Wednesday next week! 20:58:21 beach: I was not expecting you to actually read it right now. 20:59:03 gilberth: Oh, but most people do. After all, I am just a civil servant with nothing to do :) 20:59:12 beach: Anyhow, when I have the motivation to do some lisp hacking, i actually try to focus on the lexer of mine. Reason is: When done it is a valuable tool to hack other stuff. 20:59:29 -!- Guest81682 is now known as decaf 21:00:07 gilberth: very valid reason. I have always justified my hacking projects that way. 21:00:29 beach: Next thing on my agenda then is s.th. with the working title of "last-ffi" the last ffi you'd ever use. Which then is more a C to Lisp compiler. 21:00:43 So it's not just me that only write stuff to be able to easier write other stuff later on? 21:01:08 (and doesn't know how to spell) 21:01:47 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:00 beach: Line of thinking here is: C programmer sees libfoo, all he needs to do is to write #include and -lfoo and can start using that. I want that for Lisp too. 21:05:55 josemanuel [n=josemanu@147.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:06:01 for lisp libraries or for C ones? 21:06:41 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-241-63.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 21:07:17 well i am not making myself clear here. Suppose you want to call getc from lisp. You write (getc file), which will produce the C code "fgetc (file);" which is then compiled. Keep in mind that more often than not getc is a C macro. 21:07:33 s/fgetc/getc/ of course 21:07:43 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-164-65.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:07:55 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:02 is something like (dims vector float 2) and (dims vector float 3) reasonably efficient as specializers in a defmethod? 21:08:48 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:08:55 Krystof: Lisp calling C libs. I do not consider that problem solved. 21:09:32 gilberth: did you see helmut's "inline C in fasls" code on cmucl-imp recently? 21:09:38 Balooga: (hate to jump in) are you trying to specialize methods on vector subtypes? 21:09:38 fusss, memo from LiamH: are you using migw? I don't use windows but there is another GSLL user who has done so successfully on windows. He is on the mailing list, so if you post there, he might be able to help. 21:09:44 sounds a bit like what you're aiming for 21:09:44 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 21:10:09 Balooga: you can't do that either 21:10:18 fusss: Trying to specialize methods on size of vectors. ie. (x, y) versus (x, y, z) 21:10:19 Krystof: No, I did not. Does it allow you to mix C and Lisp within a function? 21:10:27 minion: mem for LiamH: yeah. I'm on mingw but my deployment box is Linux so I went ahead and started hacking on the deployment box itself. 21:10:28 i run on crux linux - http://www.crux.nu/ 21:10:33 gilberth: I'm afraid I can't remember the details 21:10:41 fusss: here 21:11:01 LiamH: oh :-) 21:11:27 Krystof: Can't specialize on a vector length, or vector type, or both? 21:11:30 I'm trying to solve fairly largish linear equations and would need matrices of a few tens of megs 21:11:46 gilberth: if you want direct access to C, there is ecl... (I'm jumping in without reading scrollback, forgive me :P) 21:11:54 fusss: sorry I can't help much with windows, but if you learn anything I'd be happy to patch 21:11:57 I shopped around for algorithms and I can translate some basic Octave stuff into Lisp and use GSLL 21:11:59 Balooga: you cannot specialize on a vector length at all, and specializing on a vector's specialized element type is implementation-dependent 21:12:11 fusss: Ah, good 21:12:42 gilberth: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.cmucl.devel/10721 21:12:42 Balooga: you might wanna deftype a new vector type and dispatch the methods on the new type 21:12:45 p_l: Well I want that for any common lisp. Which is part of the point. 21:12:53 I just compiled and installed sbcl under /usr/local/sbcl-1.0.25 but when I try to start it, it wants to load sbcl.core under /usr/local/lib/sbcl/sbcl.core. Any idea how to fix it? 21:12:59 <_death> fusss: methods don't dispatch on types 21:13:07 Balooga: it might be kludgy to use EQL specializers at the moment 21:13:22 <_death> fusss: specializers are either class names or eql specializers 21:13:22 leo2007: you can pass --core explicitly 21:13:25 _death: they don't? ouch. EQL it is then. 21:13:34 also: were you graduate union president? 21:13:52 fe[nl]ix: thanks. 21:13:54 gilberth: Then I guess you'd probably need to reimplement them as well. Cause last time I checked, #include and "-lfoo" in LDFLAGS don't always work... 21:14:28 Krystof: how to make it automatic? 21:14:34 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-30-70.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 21:14:49 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a66684@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fe8ead4e8a62c23b] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:15:05 basically I want all users to be able to use it? 21:15:27 I can never quite remember how it all works, but I think you should have defined INSTALL_ROOT before starting 21:15:45 *p_l* would like for FFI to work in "C world" as well... 21:15:54 fe[nl]ix: Seems like the programmer still need to know about the signature of C code he puts in. What I want that one could write just (defun exitedp (status) (#_WIFEXITED status)) where #_xxx would refer to the C name space. 21:16:38 gilberth: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.cmucl.devel/10721 21:16:50 fe[nl]ix: Or actually can just skip the defun and use (#_WIFEXITED ...) whereever he needs to. 21:17:23 Krystof: thanks, but fe[nl]ix was faster than you ;) 21:17:50 gilberth: what you describe would probably work with VMS/Windows assuming the code wasn't compiled with certain shortcuts and there was a manifest of functions... 21:18:17 p_l: macros? inline C functions defined in header files? would that work too? 21:18:21 Balooga: you might want to rethink the level of generic, high-level API you want to implement. For example, if you want to implement a linear-transformation library and need the operators to work on points, lines, planes and volumes .. i think you can think of better ways to represent your vectors and components than to classify them by size and implement as a VECTOR. 21:18:55 gilberth: whoops, yeah, I suck 21:19:33 gilberth: I guess I don't see FFI the way you do :) 21:19:33 Krystof: I wouldn't put it that way. 21:20:30 p_l: As I said, the main idea is more along the line: let's happily mix C and Lisp. 21:21:03 fusss pasted "matrix n00b" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78339 21:21:15 gilberth: I'm not sure that automatic guessing of parameter types can work reliably 21:21:41 fe[nl]ix: I do not need to guess. Or does the C compiler do guessing? 21:21:52 gilberth: The only way to do that without breaking stuff would be to either go ECL way or implement a C compiler in Lisp, which defeats the purpose 21:21:59 Balooga: look at all the ASSERTs in the code above from my newbie days :-) 21:22:19 sometimes C programmers use char* instead of void*, sometimes the opposite so you're not sure whether the foreign binding should return a string or a foreign pointer 21:22:34 saikat [n=saikat@dsl081-073-197.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:46 I've seen void* parameters used as a union: you could pass it - as part of the official API - a (void*)int too 21:23:58 a file descriptor in that case 21:25:01 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 21:25:01 fusss: I guess I could just keep my code as v3d and v2s being classes that contain a vector of length 3 and 2 respectively. 21:25:23 fe[nl]ix: That is exactly my point. The information if char* is just a pointer or a string is not in the header file. So by putting that missing information in some ffi definitions, gives a degree of freedom. Result is that for a given library libfoo there is more than one ffi binding. In the void* as union thing, the application programmer would need to do what the C programmer does: cast. 21:26:50 Or have defun (setf xy/z) that uses typep to determine vector length and then dispatches (setf xy) or (setf xyz) respectively. 21:27:25 -!- lazz0 [n=blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has quit [Client Quit] 21:27:40 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:27:49 Balooga: that's your judgement call :-) whether you want raw performance or elegance in design/abstraction. 21:28:16 fusss: with what being faster though? 21:28:37 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:28:58 won't your two setf methods have different number of arguments? 21:29:22 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:29:48 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 21:30:01 leo2007: you need to define SBCL_HOME when building the sbcl runtime 21:30:13 or edit the define at the top of src/runtime/runtime.c 21:30:20 Krystof: No, same number of args. The obj and the vector. 21:30:26 Balooga: i just guessed you wanted linear transformations. throw out a few example methods you want to specialize for vector size and something better might come up. 21:30:45 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 21:31:04 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:15 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:39 Balooga: these things sound potentially performance critical. You don't really want to throw away time with classes and method dispatch in that case, do you? 21:34:25 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-30-70.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:34:48 -!- Samy is now known as sbahra 21:35:38 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:35:45 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:54 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:40:24 tritchey__ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:28 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:47:12 hefner: These are quite performance critical, because eveythign eventually translates down to a CFFI call. 21:47:33 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:47:54 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:48:42 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:51:42 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:52:54 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609]"] 21:53:43 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp025.studby.uio.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:54:11 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:59 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:55:53 mulander [n=opera@nat-4.interq.pl] has joined #lisp 21:56:07 -!- tritchey__ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:57:25 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:57:31 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:58:18 -!- newlisper [n=wschroed@128.252.233.244] has left #lisp 22:04:44 2 files 22:05:04 2 files with differences, and a completely baffling symptom report to sbcl-devel 22:10:42 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.2.129] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:13:04 oudeis [n=oudeis@80.250.159.240] has joined #lisp 22:16:02 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-30-70.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:16:23 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6cs96.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 22:17:07 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:17:07 -!- stepnem is now known as AliceInWonderlan 22:17:09 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 22:17:21 -!- AliceInWonderlan is now known as stepnem 22:18:17 Krystof: I presume you mean _only_ 2 files? 22:19:59 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@adsl-89-132-7-248.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:20:11 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-6-170.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:22:10 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:22:50 -!- gilberth [n=gilbert@d005026.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:23:46 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:26:21 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:29:21 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:32:11 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6BC54.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 22:32:13 -!- gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-95-53-179-102.vologda.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 22:32:46 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 22:42:02 -!- mulander [n=opera@nat-4.interq.pl] has quit [] 22:43:23 Xof: (re your impossible failure report) weird; I recall reporting insane breakage (hangs after a varying amount of activity) on OS X which requires having two contribs loaded and dumping core 22:49:01 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:53:17 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 22:53:37 Lou_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 22:54:53 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:54:57 -!- deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 22:54:58 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@80.250.159.240] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:58:15 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 22:58:58 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:47 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:21 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 23:06:41 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 23:09:15 -!- vixey [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:09:28 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.186.162] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:09:58 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:10:46 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:20:15 -!- doylent [n=doylent@host252-6-dynamic.46-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 23:23:47 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:25:33 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 23:27:38 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 23:28:06 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:01 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:37:46 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:41 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-30-70.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:43:56 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:45:15 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:48:44 djgera [n=djgera@host239.190-137-17.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 23:48:51 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:51:00 Regarding slime with sbcl (latest version each), it would seem that when an error in the Lisp file is encountered that taking the choice labeled "accept" is the one that leaves me with a compilation error tree. 23:51:24 I am wondering if it has always been that way--i thought it used to be the "Abort" choice that would get to the tree. 23:53:23 -!- djgera [n=djgera@host239.190-137-17.telecom.net.ar] has left #lisp 23:53:44 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.88] has joined #lisp 23:54:19 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483FCB2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:55:07 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 23:59:27 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit []