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has joined #lisp 01:04:07 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 01:06:42 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Client Quit] 01:10:05 rvirding [n=rvirding@h252n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:10:33 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:12:09 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:13 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:16:15 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-68-239-77-4.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:58 aggieben_ [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 01:17:33 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@77.124.71.204] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:20:36 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:43 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-3df7fa540cc9ce72] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:20:48 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-226-98.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 01:22:02 what is the easiest way to replace all instances of a string in another string with a replacement string? 01:22:22 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:22:46 <_death> cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all 01:23:36 thank ye kindly 01:25:51 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0B79F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:28:16 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:31:12 -!- aggieben [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:33:16 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 01:34:46 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0B79F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:38 -!- mcox [n=markcox@124-171-159-191.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:40:08 -!- cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:41:40 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-20-101.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:43:20 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-30-114.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:44:24 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 01:50:15 cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has joined #lisp 01:52:34 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 01:54:07 is there an in-place list append/insert? 01:54:27 (setf (rest (last list)) tail) 01:54:30 e.g., (defun inplace-insert (foo) (setf foo ... yeah 02:00:21 <_death> closest thing is nconc 02:01:24 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 02:01:44 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:01:57 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 02:04:04 -!- Joreji [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:05:21 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:05:59 garslo 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error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:27:05 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 02:35:06 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0B79F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:35:37 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h252n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 02:38:39 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:24 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.190.219] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:41:27 erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 02:45:08 bobf_ [n=bob@host81-151-99-145.range81-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 02:45:49 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0B79F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:33 -!- disismt [n=disismt@124.124.233.29] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:46:55 disismt [n=disismt@124.124.233.29] has joined #lisp 02:47:25 -!- SportChick [i=essy@freenode/staff/sportchick] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:47:47 SportChick [i=essy@freenode/staff/sportchick] has joined #lisp 02:48:02 -!- disismt [n=disismt@124.124.233.29] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:48:24 disismt [n=disismt@124.124.233.29] has joined #lisp 02:49:01 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:07 drakej [n=Fred@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:13 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:52:13 -!- drakej [n=Fred@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:53:08 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@c-76-125-177-14.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:53:42 tweek__: never insert stuff 02:55:18 Another helpful hint&tip from S11, vol. 42! 02:58:08 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-68-239-77-4.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:01:06 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:13 greetings folks 03:02:34 chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:37 blbrown 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has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:37:03 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 03:38:29 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:42:56 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:43:55 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-af8699a3dd5983cf] has left #lisp 03:44:17 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0B79F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:47:41 -!- aggieben [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:55:22 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0B79F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:36 nis [n=nicolas@91-165-140-84.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:31 -!- chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.161.1.169] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:58:53 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:11 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:07:41 -!- nis_ [n=nicolas@91-165-135-177.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:08:36 ltriant [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:08:59 decaf [n=mkose@81.215.202.193] has joined #lisp 04:10:12 -!- nis [n=nicolas@91-165-140-84.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:19:06 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:22:45 bugrum [n=vedam@c-98-201-95-13.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:09 does anyone know of a somewhat agreed upon bytecode instruction set for Common Lisp 04:25:16 or is this implementation-specific 04:25:54 I'm asking because I started wondering about it after reading Dan Weinreb's series of articles that were posted throughout the day today 04:25:55 <_3b> x86 machine code is a popular one :p 04:26:00 heh. 04:26:21 on reddit that is 04:26:35 *_3b* hasn't heard of any being used by more than 1 lisp that didn't start out as some other language (java bytecode for example) 04:27:31 I wish people would stop posting those to reddit. They're close enough to content-free as it is without a bunch of python and ruby fanboys voting them up out of spite. 04:28:03 e.g. "Common Lisp is hard to optimize. Look, Dan Weinreb said so!" 04:28:49 <_3b> well, it is true... not that most other languages are any easier :) 04:28:51 Well, unfortunately I don't know much about it other some rules of thumbs I've been reading up on Lisp and Lisp programming on SBCL 04:29:05 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:29:08 I'm still learning :) 04:29:32 _3b: at least it's POSSIBLE to optimize, unlike many popular choices, and without being some damned ML knockoff. 04:29:42 <_3b> i suspect it is more of a problem that python compiler is old, so wasn't designed for newer optimization strategies, and nobody wants tor ewrite it 04:30:44 is there some ass-backwards way to retrieve docstrings for methods that I'm not seeing 04:30:57 I understand that they need to be passed in using the keyword arg :documentation 04:31:06 <_3b> you mean a specific method? 04:31:10 yes 04:31:13 <_3b> as opposed to the entire generic function 04:31:16 now, take this as a sign of ignorance because I really don't know very much information about this, but does the python compiler do any sort of type-inferencing 04:31:26 <_3b> bugrum: lots 04:32:18 <_3b> python does compile well, but there are some obvious places it could be improved, but not easily (peephole pass, etc) 04:32:33 *_3b* doesn't really know details much beyond that level though :) 04:32:35 Is it just a different algorithm than Hindley-Milner (I read up a little bit about this) 04:33:14 <_3b> i don't think it is h-m, but i couldn't find any sources for that last time i tried to verify it 04:33:28 tweek__ pasted "Othello" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78231 04:33:49 basically there's a gigantic docstring in there and I'd like to know how to retrieve it 04:34:08 <_3b> tweek__: put it on a defgeneric? 04:34:33 <_3b> (assuming sweep is sane and does the same thing on all types) 04:34:51 only makes sense to operate on types board-state 04:34:57 <_3b> if it only works for board-state, it should probably be a normal function 04:35:20 have you guys checked pypy? They have a jit-compiler compiler, given an interpreter, it spits out a jit-compiler 04:35:24 <_3b> CLOS methods aren't like other languages, they don't belong to classes 04:35:52 <_3b> they belong to a generic function, which is intended to operate on various classes, specific objects, or combinations of classes/specific objects 04:35:57 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:36:08 and probably children of those classes 04:36:18 I'm not inheriting anything anyway, so I guess these all can be generic 04:36:29 <_3b> right, or subclasses 04:36:31 err, 'defun' functions 04:36:43 lambdas 04:37:45 DeusExPikachu> really? I have to check that out... 04:37:56 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 04:38:55 no, the topic was on compilers for languages 04:39:05 *_3b* can't tell what sweep is supposed to do from that description (or the name) 04:39:23 that's because all my comments are awful 04:39:25 bugrum, sorry yeah chek it out, sorry misread your comment 04:39:30 I honestly think code's better off without it 04:39:41 can't figure out what's going on, get a new Goddamned job 04:39:59 <_3b> you should be able to tell from the name at least 04:40:18 'sweep'. sweeps through the board, row by row, for moves. 04:40:24 <_3b> if it returns all valid moves, call it list-valid-moves or something :) 04:40:28 maybe it makes more sense to me than it does to anyone else 04:40:40 <_3b> doing a linear search is implementation detail, and shouldn't be in the name 04:40:42 PyPy always struck me as an odd clash of cultures. Who at that level of sophistication actually wants to write a compiler for Python? The mind boggles. ;) 04:41:14 <_3b> listing valid moves from a state is something that is a reasonable generic function... then you can change the board representation, and code using list-valid-moves still works 04:41:16 well, it's going to be called by a function later that actually is called list-valid-moves or something, and it'll call sweep four times in four different directions 04:41:40 I'm working with a guy that doesn't know a damn thing about Lisp 04:41:46 he's so screwed 04:42:05 <_3b> ok, if it is internal to list-valid-moves, that is reasonable 04:42:39 <_3b> (though it possibly should be a local function to a bord-state specific method of that generic function 04:42:48 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-165-201.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 04:43:24 <_3b> it is big enough that being separate is reasonable too though 04:43:45 it's going to be cut mercifully as soon as I test it 04:43:54 and make damn sure I'm not missing a faster way to do the same thing 04:44:19 <_3b> also, long names are preferred in lisp (at least in #lisp :) instead of short abbreviations 04:44:36 honestly I think it's critical enough that I should take it out and write it in C 04:44:54 <_3b> nah, seldom need to do that 04:44:55 could probably still optimize it in Lisp the same way if I knew anything about the language 04:47:08 <_3b> leave it in lisp as long as possible, since most of your performance comes from high-level optimizations, so having code be flexible is the most important thing 04:47:25 hefner: to your comments on Mr. Weinreb's articles, I'm kinda curious as to whether you agree or disagree with his statements 04:47:37 appletizer [i=user@82-32-124-44.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 04:48:44 the libraries thing I kinda agree. Only working with Common Lisp for 2 years now (like I said I am newbie to the language trying to catch up to speed) I will say the library thing isn't really an issue of existence but rather of several sites hosting different libraries 04:48:54 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-165-201.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:19 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 04:50:33 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:51:14 he makes some good points, some of it is superficial, but it's mostly irrelevant. the world is being overrun by savages and headless chickens; this is no time to complain about how hard it is to compile CL. 04:52:28 I don't know enough about libraries in other languages to comment. Everytime I have to compile a C or C++ library, it seems about equally likely to (not) work as I'm used to in CL. 04:54:03 hefner, pypy is not writing a compiler in python, its writing a compiler compiler in python, even harder 04:54:15 DeusExPikachu: I know. 04:54:36 DeusExPikachu: so pypy is basically yacc in python? 04:55:14 I would not make that comparison 04:55:29 for one, yacc is only from a grammar, it lacks the other tools 04:55:41 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 04:56:00 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-a1526a4c76d071cf] has joined #lisp 04:56:05 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-a1526a4c76d071cf] has left #lisp 04:56:11 *hefner* kinda wants to write a twitter clone in C. 04:56:26 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0B79F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:58:23 jao [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:00:55 creddy_ [n=angiospo@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 05:05:10 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-165-201.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 05:07:27 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:07:33 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:37 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:24 salmarnir [n=weechat@c-75-72-165-51.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:33 -!- creddy [n=probabil@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:08:36 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.132.164] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:08:41 -!- creddy_ is now known as creddy 05:08:56 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.132.164] has joined #lisp 05:10:45 -!- salmarnir [n=weechat@c-75-72-165-51.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:11:51 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0B79F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:14 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0B79F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:13:49 futuresoon [n=futureso@cpe-68-175-67-66.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:17:57 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-94-2.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:20:19 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-452f56cc796b0e88] has joined #lisp 05:20:25 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-452f56cc796b0e88] has left #lisp 05:21:04 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-6dfd0aa81940bbc4] has joined #lisp 05:21:12 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-6dfd0aa81940bbc4] has quit [Client Quit] 05:24:18 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:25:24 drakej [n=Fred@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:46 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 05:28:44 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:28:48 -!- drakej [n=Fred@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:29:02 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 05:35:02 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:42:06 adityo [n=adityo@59.183.8.2] has joined #lisp 05:44:10 is it possible to define a method for two classes in a single defmethod? I don't really understand "eql-specializer-form". 05:46:15 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:46:25 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:35 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-226-98.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 05:52:24 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-167-230.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:53:04 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 05:58:01 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:00:09 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-79-111.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:25 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.190.219] has joined #lisp 06:06:18 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-124-44.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:08:25 drakej [n=Fred@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:50 -!- drakej [n=Fred@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:09:15 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 06:09:24 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.157.39] has joined #lisp 06:10:51 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:22 good morning 06:12:07 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:12:15 pretty quiet in here 06:14:10 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-138-31.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:17:28 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:12 xyblor, once you've done your defgeneric, you can think of each defmethod as having it's own signature. if you want to pass two different classes as parameters, that's possible 06:18:21 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 06:18:55 so do I use the (eql form) thingy? 06:19:09 <_3b> eql specializers are to specifalize on a specific instance instead of a class 06:19:19 oh 06:19:30 eno___ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-138-31.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:44 so do I need to do something involving "call-next-method" or what? 06:19:52 <_3b> like (defmethod foo ((a (eql :foo))) 'foo) vs (defmethod foo ((a symbol)) 'symbol) 06:20:28 <_3b> call-next-method is for when you want to run more than 1 method (method for superclass for example) 06:20:54 should I keep guessing? 06:20:59 <_3b> or when you want to call the main method from an :around method 06:21:09 or are you just trying to do something simple like (get-in-car noddy funny-car) 06:21:18 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:21:26 <_3b> if you just want to have different behaviors for different classes, just use defmethod and specialize on each one 06:21:40 where noddy is an instance of person and funny-car is an instance of car 06:21:47 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-182-61.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:21:49 I have methods for two classes, but they are exactly the same 06:21:56 I just want to save space and typing 06:22:03 <_3b> do they share a superclass? 06:22:04 then specialise on a superclass 06:22:13 ah 06:22:14 <_3b> if not, you could add a mixin class 06:22:26 that's what mixins are for, yes. 06:22:28 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:22:30 <_3b> or put the common code in a helper function 06:22:55 yes, okay 06:23:06 I have no idea what "mixin" means 06:23:20 is there some documentation on that somewhere? 06:23:26 xyblor: you write a separate class that does your extra behavior, and make your new class inherit from it. 06:23:37 and then you'll have all the behavior of that 'mixin' class. 06:24:21 (defclass third-legged-mixin () ()) (defmethod foo ((thing third-legged-mixin)) ..) 06:24:22 so a "mixin" is more of a conceptual distinction rather than technical? 06:24:31 <_3b> right 06:24:34 okay 06:24:38 (defclass person (female third-legged-thing) ..) 06:24:54 it's like a plugin :) 06:24:58 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:25:10 okay, this is helpful 06:25:17 s/third/three/ 06:25:35 I haven't really touched inheritance and superclasses yet, I guess it's time to learn about that 06:26:06 that's the juicy part. Otherwise you're just messing with structs ;) 06:26:45 have you done any Java or C++? 06:27:15 doesn't sound like he's ever touched OOP... 06:27:35 I hope so! Will be much easier! 06:27:58 hefner, or Lisp! 06:28:05 learning CLOS as the first real experience with OOP is a horrible idea. 06:28:12 it spoiled me too much. :-\ 06:30:10 ah yes, I can imagine how that must be. 06:30:32 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 06:30:54 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-138-31.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:32:38 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.174.153] has joined #lisp 06:32:46 people really like this CLOS thing huh 06:33:03 futuresoon: have you actually used it?... 06:33:09 tic: but I want to feel the bits between my fingers, like grains of salt in an open wound 06:33:12 nope, but i intend to 06:33:36 futuresoon: you poor thing. How do you survive like that? 06:33:37 Ragnaroek [i=54a65443@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7d2c555ee320bd5d] has joined #lisp 06:33:46 it must be horrible. 06:33:46 i would say today's my first real day of Lisp 06:33:53 _3b: do you have a minute to msg me privately? 06:34:07 futuresoon: are you doing PCL? 06:34:08 it basically consists of working through PCL 06:34:18 LinkFly [n=linkfly@62.140.244.27] has joined #lisp 06:34:19 ah neat. 06:34:24 you have experience programming already? 06:34:42 do PHP, Perl and Python count? 06:34:52 python and perl do. 06:35:00 then no 06:35:02 :-) 06:35:05 hehehe :) 06:35:07 :) 06:35:24 ManateeL` [n=user@116.18.174.153] has joined #lisp 06:35:30 hi people 06:35:33 *fusss* is too drunk to folow all this 06:35:39 hefner: I keep running into genuine, honest-to-goodness cases where I would want to use sheeple. 06:35:42 i use a lot of web frameworks where coding is secondary to the task of actually building the back end of the system 06:35:45 makes me want to work on it again. 06:36:10 <_3b> fusss: ok, if lack of registration doesn't interfere with msg 06:36:12 futuresoon: that always struck me as strange. 06:36:40 well, right now i sit on the extreme part of the spectrum of "Worse is better" 06:36:42 <_3b> fusss: (and depending on drunkeness :p) 06:37:10 -!- ManateeL` [n=user@116.18.174.153] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:37:17 and i'm very happy with it for web development, but i rarely get a chance to program because every idea i have for a project has already been done by someone else 20x better, with a better user interface, and it takes 20 seconds to implement it 06:37:21 futuresoon: I have settled on "Make sure you get it done, but do what you can to make it not suck" 06:37:22 ;) 06:37:38 ManateeL` [n=user@116.18.174.153] has joined #lisp 06:38:15 sorry of my bad english. My question: how is finding work on common lisp (remote work) ? 06:38:15 well, hopefully i'll be responsible for making some things not suck in the future 06:39:08 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 06:40:05 -!- xyblor [n=nik@75-119-230-137.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:40:28 LinkFly: you shouldn't use Lisp to program your remote control 06:40:31 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:35 sykopomp: you should document the use cases (except not in a way that proggit goobers can twist into anti-CL propaganda ;) 06:41:15 hefner: I think I should first re-write sheeple a third time so that it actually works :P 06:41:27 if i want to use cl-ppcre is ASDF the way to include that? 06:41:39 futuresoon: yes 06:42:05 sykopomp: ok 06:43:09 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:43:39 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 06:45:33 do Lisp people do linux, windows, mac, some kind of "lisp machine"? 06:45:41 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 06:45:58 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:05 futuresoon, all of the above 06:46:21 i heard Lisp has some special relationship to hardware somehow 06:46:40 mac and linux seem to prevail here, although there's an irritatingly growing contingent of masochist windows users 06:46:41 like it's closer or further from... something in the hardware---i dunno much about hardare 06:47:05 Amitabh [n=chatzill@apac-nc06-e0a.oracle.co.in] has joined #lisp 06:47:14 yeah i need a command line or i get grumpy 06:48:00 Probably what you heard was that it is a high level language that can be optimised down to a very low level. There were lisp machines though. Also CAR and CDR were meant to be IBM instructions. 06:48:18 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has left #lisp 06:48:30 I'm not sure of the validity of the IBM thing as I didn't look into it deep enough 06:50:03 can Lisp be used to shell script in the way Perl is? 06:50:40 >futuresoon .. i am want no create program for remote control. I am want finded work "common lisp programmer" 06:50:43 ASau [n=user@host78-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:51:02 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-99-33-30-119.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:51:09 futuresoon: it -could-... but it would probably be a pretty painful experience. 06:51:13 LinkFly: I know I was just kidding---I heard they're hiring in the Air Traffic Control industry but I'm not sure 06:52:19 sykopomp: what's your interest in Lisp? AI? 06:52:24 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:52:24 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:52:47 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["leaving"] 06:52:52 Freenet [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 06:52:59 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:53:08 torkel1 [n=torkel@ti100710a081-0128.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 06:53:19 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:53:42 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.174.153] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:53:48 futuresoon: I don't really do anything serious with programming. I've ended up mostly writing game-related stuff in lisp... or whatever I come up with that I think I'd find interesting to code (like sheeple) 06:54:01 what's sheeple do? 06:54:12 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:54:18 everybody follows everybody else and then they all fall off a cliff? 06:54:18 it's like CLOS, but prototype-based instead of class-based. 06:54:22 _8david [n=user@wallstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 06:54:37 you lost me at "prototype-based" 06:54:40 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 06:54:42 -!- Freenet is now known as wedgeV 06:55:08 futuresoon: instead of defining classes and make instances, you create objects and make copies of that object (with variations when you need/want them) 06:55:18 oh, sounds like Perl 06:55:29 oh, sounds like Lisp Macros---is it? 06:55:41 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.248.31] has joined #lisp 06:55:53 Newer [n=user@salle208.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has joined #lisp 06:56:21 -!- _8david [n=user@wallstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has left #lisp 06:57:55 Hello, I would like to know how to check if a slot is empty or not in a class. i tried (eql NIL (phones person)) (eq NIL (phones person)), and some other but i get a COMPILE-OP NIL error, so I would like to know if a function to test that exists, thx 06:59:09 There's a way to make stump auto-layout some stuff. 06:59:29 clhs slot-boundp 06:59:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_bo.htm 06:59:38 Make one screen a grid and open a regular expression of documents in that grid. Say pdf's. And then dismiss the whole thing when you're done inspecting them. 06:59:49 Thanks a lot 07:01:27 futuresoon: I believe Perl6's object system works like this. 07:01:40 seejay_ [n=seejay@202.69.200.5] has joined #lisp 07:01:43 interesting 07:01:49 not that i know that system either 07:02:52 cracki [n=cracki@46-051.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:03:48 snippyhollow [n=snippyho@203.160.1.71] has joined #lisp 07:04:18 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-210-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:47 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 07:05:28 crimson13 [n=chatzill@mail.dzine.be] has joined #lisp 07:05:30 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4b74.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:07:03 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 07:07:17 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 07:08:29 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-14618.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 07:08:53 -!- edeion [n=ed@eccica.inria.fr] has left #lisp 07:09:04 -!- crimson13 [n=chatzill@mail.dzine.be] has quit [Client Quit] 07:09:29 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:11:06 -!- ltriant [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:11:29 cracki_ [n=cracki@46-051.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:11:50 ltriant [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:12:07 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.132.164] has quit [Success] 07:14:58 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:15:04 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:16 Hmm, just came across this, I think was being alluded to earlier: http://jng.imagine27.com/articles/2009-04-07-135246_cl_hard_to_compile_efficiently.html 07:17:38 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:18:35 splittist [n=dmurray@167-55.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:18:39 morning 07:18:43 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:18:53 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-135-5.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:19:11 Seems to miss the point by a long shot 07:19:33 morning splittist 07:19:46 wentbackward: nice blog link there 07:19:50 missing the point, daniel weinreb? 07:20:21 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:20:38 dan weinreb is awesome. I just have to say that. 07:20:40 Well Lisp is a high level language and no-one really ever claimed it would be easy to compile it for any particular architecture 07:21:10 tic: seen the dan articles showing up in HN today? 07:22:36 wentbackward: very interesting 07:23:07 well one day a sufficiently intelligent machine learning algorithm will optimize its own code and take over the world 07:23:38 how's that for "sufficiently clever compiler" 07:23:43 The article is mixing two points. Lisp should be a small scripting language, yet it should optimise as efficiently as _other languages_ 07:23:59 fusss, haven't. I'll have a look. 07:24:01 Jeez I long for the day for a language that does that 07:24:12 -!- ltriant [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 07:24:27 Does anyone know what does the % symbol means before a slot name in a class? 07:24:29 if that was "at ILC 2009 no less", I must have missed it 07:25:08 fusss, couldn't find any. anything in particular you meant? 07:25:09 ("in the ILC 2009 web forums" doesn't count) 07:25:13 We just need to go back to hardware lisp machines! ;) 07:25:16 Newer: it's a convention saying "don't use this without precise knowledge about what's going on" 07:25:16 Newer: nothing. it's just a conventional thing that %stuff mean "internal", its' a naming convention. 07:25:42 what antifuchs said. 07:26:17 Newer: you know you have strayed too far if you're hacking on double percentage datatypes :-P 07:26:31 %%foo is strictly compiler hacking :-P 07:26:35 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-3af85fe9f2fe7623] has joined #lisp 07:26:40 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-3af85fe9f2fe7623] has left #lisp 07:26:41 at least in cmucl 07:27:13 how do i know which lisp i've got? 07:27:23 futuresoon: uhhh... how did you install it? 07:27:34 <_3b> (lisp-implementation-type) 07:27:47 I see, thanks, so its supposed not to be accessed by external function, but then , how can I use slot-boundp function ? 07:28:03 <_3b> and (lisp-implementation-version) for more detail 07:28:11 sykopomp: don't remember anymore----i do still have a vague affinity for the letters SBCL but I don't know what I mean or whether I followed my heart at the time 07:28:19 (slot-boundp instance 'slot-name) 07:28:43 Newer: ah - it's just a convention, not an encapsulation feature; if you have a good-enough reason to use these names, you should. 07:28:50 futuresoon: sbcl is a lisp implementation. 07:29:04 _3b: thanks, that did it 07:29:06 Newer: the % just makes things stand out and highlights that strange things may be going on in the code that uses them 07:29:20 Daniel Weinreb is asking from a constructive standpoint. It's the other blog that's being ridiculous and quoting DW as if they're in some kind of agreement. The blog I linked to above actually misquotes DW 07:29:21 yeah, so is my sbcl what i want? or do i *really* want a *different* lisp 07:29:38 Ok, thanks antifuchs 07:29:49 -!- cracki [n=cracki@46-051.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:29:57 <_3b> sbcl is a good choice, preferably a fairly recent versoin 07:30:28 futuresoon: sbcl is good enough for all intents and purposes, unless your intention is to not mess with Kitten of Death on win32 07:30:48 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:30:59 -!- Newer [n=user@salle208.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:31:10 fusss: you're not suggesting i re-become a windows person are you? 07:31:26 futuresoon: heavens, no. 07:31:36 oh, i must have faultily parsed a tripled negative 07:32:05 i shall google this Kitteh O' Def 07:32:11 unless youre on win32, sbcl is _it_ 07:32:14 <_3b> futuresoon: sbcl is less of an obviously good choice on win32 07:32:52 on win32, it does many things, some of which you might not approve of (let's put it that way) 07:33:10 to what extent is that fud and to what extent are there really problems? 07:34:09 i'm on ubuntu 07:34:24 i figure nothing good runs on windows 07:34:42 A good bulldozer could 07:34:50 100% fud (and fud perpetuated by sbcl's own warning banner of death, which is mostly benign, like a robert mugabe rule) 07:35:09 who here does *not* emacs for lisp hacking? 07:35:44 <_3b> Ragnaroek: there are a few, and a few more than only use emacs to run a slime repl 07:36:00 that's me 07:36:22 oh wait no it's not nvm 07:36:45 wait, there are uses for emacs other than slime? :-O 07:36:48 tic: here are few weinreb articles on HN today; http://danweinreb.org/blog/object-oriented-database-management-systems-succeeded, http://ilc2009.scheming.org/node/7?; the second is CL related. 07:37:24 Phoodus: org-mode, it managementish 07:37:27 it's 07:37:47 see, drupal---that's what i use 07:38:05 anything that says /node/integer is typically drupal 07:38:13 ilitirit: for example, threads are quite different on windows, when you call a function, passing a synchronous callback as a parameter, that callback might be called in a different thread. It's quite difficult to have a lisp robust to this kind of things. 07:38:21 what would be a motivation for emacs users to switch to a, let's say Eclipse-based IDE? none? 07:38:58 futuresoon: isn't it a pain in the butt? drupal comes up with a critical system update just when i'm ready to enjoy a weekend. and now i have to update the system, my modules and my themese, because they all have a critical XSS vuln. 07:39:24 fusss: i use a command line tool where you just type "drush update" and click on a url *shrug* 07:39:32 Ragnaroek: I don't know the capabilities of other Lisp IDEs, but integrated refactorin tools, whole-project configuration, etc etc 07:39:47 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:39:52 Eclipse is great for Java, but other languages don't get all the same feature sets 07:39:53 fusss, thanks! 07:40:00 Ragnaroek: death threat? 07:40:03 Commenting on the "conceptual purity" part of the ILC article, is there work on a consistent model for concurrency in next-gen lisp? Like the actor model or something? 07:40:09 Ragnaroek: a gun to the head? 07:40:22 fusss, precisely why I despise drupal. The only breach I've ever had on my servers was through that mess of a ..... 07:40:42 *wentbackward* remains calm. 07:40:58 beats the hell out of it's php competitors, but that's no surprise :) 07:41:02 with a sufficient number of eyeballs, all bugs are shallow 07:41:23 *fusss* has a CMS in Lisp, but it's too small and too ugly to release to "teh ppl" 07:41:23 does slime/emacs have auto-completion? 07:41:39 Ragnaroek: sure it does 07:41:45 http://drupal.org/project/dript <-- drupal *hearts* lisp 07:41:46 Ragnaroek: yes 07:41:48 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 07:41:49 Ragnaroek, (m-v-b ----> (multiple-value-bind 07:42:23 is this only for some special constructs? 07:42:33 nite folks 07:42:38 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609]"] 07:42:44 Ragnaroek: try it 07:42:47 nope, anything evaluated is added to the "list of completions", Ragnaroek 07:42:48 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 07:43:07 that's nice 07:43:20 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 07:43:46 mogunus: I was taken by this reply http://ilc2009.scheming.org/node/7#comment-20 (; 07:45:15 Yeah... the ml's are pretty intellectually concise. So is smalltalk. These languages are "awesome" but not "popular." 07:45:21 why I'm asking: I want to know if it makes sense to continue this project:http://sourceforge.net/projects/dandelion-ecl 07:46:12 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-210-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:46:18 Ragnaroek: Working on tools is an excellent displacement activity. 07:46:39 mogunus, The basic problem is that on average most people are average. A lot people don't really care that much and latch onto something they can grasp 07:47:54 I don't think Lisp/Smalltalk/ML are intellectually above most people, it's just they're a paradigm away. 07:48:23 and lots of reputation issues 07:48:27 I don't so much mind the proliferation of concepts in CL, but I wish we had a unified concurrency model. 07:49:07 I don't know much about generating efficent code. I've only recently started to try and figure out SBCL. (I want threads on freebsd) 07:49:21 for (asdf:defsystem... i have this depends-on argument and i can't tell where in my filesystem i have to put (in this case cl-ppcre) in order for it to get recognized 07:49:33 Ah, indeed, CL does need some tidying. I guess these mainstream languages to benefit from a mass following in that 07:49:35 or whether my question makes any sense 07:49:38 oops 07:49:53 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 07:50:02 in that there are more people to sit down and work out how to set about improving things. 07:50:03 i think the challenge with lisp is in finding a reason to use it 07:50:15 it's very easy to understand what php does---it builds websites 07:50:34 it's easy to understand what perl does---it does shell scripting and "practical extracting and reporting" 07:50:34 Hello 07:50:45 the one big challenge we've faced is the difficulty of deploying lisp applications 07:50:50 I don't think so at all. I mostly do statistical computing, and I much prefer working in lisp to working in GNU R, even though R is a special-purpose statistics language with higher order functions. 07:51:17 phoodus: challenge in terms of getting users? 07:51:30 -!- ManateeL` [n=user@116.18.174.153] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:51:31 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 07:51:32 no, challenge of cross-platform support, bundling, installation, etc 07:52:10 And for more computationally intensive stuff (monte carlo methods, etc) I pretty much need to use lisp, because R is interperted and too slow to deal. 07:52:16 any time anything changes in where you install it, it also seems like networking, threading, and simple things like stdio pipes break 07:52:27 i don't know what to do about installation, i got past installation ok (lisp in a box certainly allowed me to envision success pretty easily) 07:52:44 yes, java focused on deployment early on and prevailed, despite Microsoft trying to kill them. It's a very important issue for Lisp 07:53:23 well deployment i guess is an issue if you want to attract the enterprise 07:53:37 i'm a hobbiest in lisp but i'm trying to work in php 07:53:47 anybody with any customers needs to face deployment issues, not just big enterprises 07:53:49 Ragnaroek, hm, well .. slime has some nice features, but imho some parts of it sucks real bad and i'm not sure if it is "because of emacs" or because of slime itself .. a programmable/extensible IDE for Common Lisp written in Common Lisp would be nice .. slime tries to cover too much ground perhaps? .. but i don't know (i can't even read elisp :P) 07:53:57 adityo_ [n=adityo@59.183.62.0] has joined #lisp 07:55:22 Slime isn't super-great, but it's the best available. Its mindshare and marketshare kind of preclude other IDEs from getting a foothold, but I could see a big shift if a good, proper Lisp IDE does come out 07:55:42 well if Lisp were to be deployed to the web, couldn't deployment be standardized? 07:55:53 or am I speaking alien-talk now? 07:55:54 it's funny how Allegro built this big fancy IDE thing... and then recommends users to use Slime in their own docs ;) 07:56:00 futuresoon, many hobbyists are better craftsmen than their professional counterparts, as they don't have ridiculous pressures from customers. 07:56:17 futuresoon: how do you mean "deployed to the web?" Like, run on a server? Plenty of people do websites in lisp. I do. 07:56:24 Well. One website. 07:56:26 futuresoon: yeah, that's deployment to a single hosted architecture, not delivering software to customers 07:56:35 Or do you mean something more drastic, like a lisp plugin for firefox? 07:56:43 mogonus: i mean something to compete with Drupal, which is what I use 07:56:45 I just started fiddling with Lisp in earnest a few days ago, but for me the compelling features were the syntax being easily generated and the metaprogramming tools being nice and mature. If I didn't want to do lost of things that involved programs writing programs more than anything else, I wouldn't have decided to learn CL. 07:57:05 it's been very difficult for me coming from Drupal to justify spending time on Lisp so now I'm doing it to find out *why* Lisp is so great 07:57:21 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-135-5.vologda.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 07:57:38 Well, it's PHP to begin with. ;) (see the presentation on macros at ilc09) 07:57:42 -!- snippyhollow [n=snippyho@203.160.1.71] has quit ["Shinjuku, incoming ..."] 07:57:44 futuresoon: if what you're doing doesn't push your current tools beyond what they readily support, you're not going to find much reason to change to anything in particular 07:57:49 ilc09, ok 07:57:58 futuresoon: so, a content management system thing? I don't know of any particularly mature solutions for that particularly. 07:58:19 ...I can't talk. "particularly mature solutions for that particularly."? Ugh. 07:58:27 Phoodus: well I want two things---one is impossible to meet in Lisp right now but can be done in PHP, the other is impossible to do in PHP right now but could be done in Lisp 07:58:36 futuresoon: the most important thing about lisp is that it's not all that great at all. 07:58:37 nvoorhies: yes, I've longed for being able to use the full language during compile time from every language I used before I learned Lisp 07:58:49 sykopomp: really? what does that mean 07:58:59 i love Lisp already and I don't even know it 07:59:02 futuresoon: why not just use both languages then? 07:59:07 futuresoon: what about generating some of the php from lisp and doing a 2 stage build? 07:59:48 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:59:53 nvoorhies: you can't generate the php from lisp----there's hundreds of thousands of man-hours of php and it's constantly getting updated to be better 08:00:14 futuresoon: what do you want from lisp that you can't get from PCP? 08:00:19 s/PCP/PHP 08:00:29 hundreds of thousands of man-hours lol 08:00:29 *Phoodus* . o O (freudian slip?) 08:00:32 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:00:40 That's the best freudian slip I've seen in a programming language discussion yet 08:00:44 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 08:00:47 yeah, PCP :-P 08:00:59 but in all seriousness, the whole worse is better thing really works because of man-hours 08:01:13 it's literally something like hundreds of thousands and real-time bug fixes 08:01:15 all for doing nothing 08:01:17 or it's a house of cards that needs refactoring anyway? 08:01:32 I'm doing well with emitting words blobs tonight. But seriously, what in lisp is appealing/hard for PHP in your problem domain? 08:01:33 Phoodus: it only needs refactoring if it *does* need refactoring 08:01:47 and if it *does* need refactoring, there's hundreds of thousands of man-hours still available 08:01:54 if that much time is continually dedicated to bug fixing, I'd say it does need it 08:02:14 well you all know the solutions you get in Drupal easily 08:02:31 the social networking functionality----a database query builder that other programs can easily integrate with 08:02:40 tombom [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 08:02:43 a field definition for web pages that integrates with the query builder 08:02:57 those were some of the hardest apps to build in PHP and perhaps they could have been done better in lisp 08:03:13 but over a quarter of drupal modules integrate with one, the other, or both 08:03:43 writing one of those modules is very easy to conceptualize (the framework is stable and easy to conceptualize once you put a month or two of thought into it) 08:03:44 it boggles my mind that that sort of thing isn't a long-solved problem yet 08:04:11 it's been "solved" a couple of years 08:04:17 for your instance 08:04:20 right now is its exponential profit for the Drupal community 08:04:51 if you google Views or Panels the top hits are drupal module names 08:05:09 oh wait, you're talking about features of Drupal itself? I misread 08:05:18 it just so happened that web sites were easy enough that php's stupidly simple "print this; now print that;" was sufficient 08:05:21 right 08:05:30 but what i'd love from lisp is to work with bayes nets 08:05:39 map a bayes net to a network of drupal nodes 08:05:40 -!- jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:05:51 but i don't even know if these problems are mathematically feasible yet 08:06:08 so i have to teach myself higher math and lisp and figure it all out 08:06:17 you know... for fun 08:06:18 :-) 08:06:27 How is a drupal node a random variable? 08:06:47 not sure---a drupal node is becoming a pretty abstract collection of fields 08:06:59 nodes are going to be just urls and fields are going to be the real first class citizens in drupal 08:07:41 there's 2 modules that are the foundation----cck (content construction kit) defines fields.... like a field for email, fields for geolocative data, fields for files, fields for an address 08:07:43 futuresoon, you're talking about RDF 08:07:52 well, RDF comes in Drupal 7 08:08:11 you will see hundreds of thousands of websites that output RDF data out-of-the-box in about a year 08:08:15 all suddenly get turned on 08:08:20 Take a look here. This has been available in lisp for ages http://franz.com/ 08:08:29 i've been following franz 08:08:30 -!- adityo [n=adityo@59.183.8.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:08:33 i follow semweb closely 08:08:52 there's no content management system in Lisp (I wish Drupal were ported to Lisp) 08:08:55 *Phoodus* has actually been searching for a good triple inference system that doesn't bother with semweb 08:09:29 semweb is going to be more relevant than it seems after 20 years of hype 08:09:43 of course, that statement is also hype ;) 08:10:02 So once you have a semantic web, and a method of interrogating it, you'll need a language that's more powerful than PHP to do anything remotely useful with it 08:10:04 i'm saying expectations are too low but that there is an event to watch for----the release of drupal 7 08:10:05 but I'm doing straight, internal inference, not cross-linking multiple external sources 08:10:16 wentbackward: exactly 08:10:39 but to actually get people to produce the data you need a system popular enough (worse is better) to create user interfaces to create the ontologies and input the data 08:11:24 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:11:45 You mean creating things like the US Government sponsored human database called facebook? 08:11:55 drupal 7 is an OWL ontology-maker, it maps fields to these ontologies, and outputs them as RDFa (or will when drupal 7 comes out)-----it will use Semantically Interconnected Online Communities out of the box at that time-----whereas Lisp can actually do something useful with all the data that this will generate, Lisp doesn't actually have a Web CMS of its own 08:11:58 But, I mean, you need to specify each field in a node as a random variable with it's own distribution because (theoretically) they each range over a different space of values. 08:12:24 wentbackward: yeah, there's privacy conerns---i don't actually use the web a lot in terms of generating data, but i'm very interested in the development of things that impact privacy 08:12:48 mogunus: you must mean nodes in a Bayes net, because Drupal-wise I can't interpret what you're saying 08:12:54 mindstab [n=dan@janus.mindstab.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:25 mogunus: the probability of all possible events must sum to 1 08:13:29 futuresoon: Yeah, I mean nodes in a bayes net. If a drupal node is basically a field/value thing with some edges to other nodes, a drupal node needs to be more than one random bariable. 08:14:03 drupal nodes need a module that i haven't used before in order to get edges (unless there's another module i'm not aware of, which there often is) 08:14:21 i don't know what random variable you're talking about 08:14:40 i'd like to have a bunch of fields for conditional probabilities on each node 08:14:49 -!- mindstab [n=dan@janus.mindstab.net] has left #lisp 08:15:03 But drupals raison d'etre is that it's a platform that some half smart programmers can build modules for some not so smart programmers can piece together websites that all look alike. 08:15:11 conditional probabilities given the (parent, i guess?) nodes as defined by whatever module implements this "edge" property so nodes can all be connected in a Directed Acyclic Graph 08:15:27 wentbackward: they don't all look alike 08:15:45 i mean statistically yes, but in principle they can be very different 08:15:46 It doesn't, for instance, provide any proper management of vastly growing terabytes of unstructured data. 08:15:57 reading all these 'why does lisp suck?' things is always depressing. 08:16:17 it makes me wonder if anything's gonna be done about it or if people are just going to complain about lisp until it's dead. 08:16:42 sykopomp: i love Lisp, I don't want to make it sound like that 08:16:45 futuresoon: The nodes of a bayes net are single random variables. If a node in a drupal website is multiple fields, there isn't a direct mapping. 08:16:57 futuresoon: I wasn't talking about you. 08:16:57 wentbackward: http://francescamusic.com/ this is a drupal site 08:17:12 fare's comments about CL are always so dark... :P 08:17:21 sykopomp: link me to a couple? 08:18:03 ah shoot, hold on 08:18:28 sykopomp: fwiw, I'm going to try and do some thing things for lisp. I'm looking at doing up an actor model for concurrency. We should totally work on this together. 08:18:30 http://ilc2009.scheming.org/node/7 <--- there's some in there, near the bottom. 08:18:30 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 08:18:34 futuresoon, I think you should pop this conversation over to #lispcafe as it's going off topic 08:18:50 i need to get focused again anyway 08:19:13 mogunus: I'm getting pulled more and more into the "just write a plt+cl hellspawn of a language, use it, improve it, and prove it doesn't suck" 08:19:28 sykopomp: like, clojure style? 08:19:28 Can someone point out to me a few reasons to use sbcl instead of pico lisp for web based database applications? 08:19:38 mogunus: no, the opposite. 08:19:40 sykopomp: let's buy lisp in small pieces together! 08:19:42 let a thousand flowers bloom 08:19:50 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 08:19:59 The same way that recent lisp dialects are becoming more and more functional, I'd like to see a purely object-oriented lisp. 08:21:31 Hmm. I want both. I'm greedy. 08:21:35 sykopomp: you mean being able to specialise generic functions on the built-in types? 08:21:56 splittist: and to have access to the entire lisp implementation itself (and be able to extend it) through OOP. 08:22:14 Also, I really like fare's first comment. It would be really interesting to have a well-defined theoretical model for "what a program is" 08:22:23 splittist: you can already specialize generic functions on built-in types, to an extent. 08:22:26 -!- konr is now known as konr-afk 08:22:29 ("too much state...") 08:22:34 sykopomp: I don't really see what 'OO' adds. 08:22:39 -!- konr-afk is now known as konr[AFK] 08:23:13 splittist: extensibility, modularity, yet-another-model-for-handling-complexity. 08:23:39 and of course, I would like to see better support for functional stuff implemented on -top- of this system. 08:23:52 is anyone interested to help to work on the Lisp-Eclipse-Editor? There are a lot of useful things that can be done :) 08:24:12 <_3b> sykopomp: have you seen the vpri stuff? (jolt/cola/etc) not really lisp, but designed to be fully extensible :) 08:24:13 Ragnaroek: CUSP? 08:24:23 _3b: I haven't. 08:24:24 sykopomp: have you read Herzeel/p-cos Reflection for the Masses? 08:24:34 Ragnaroek: Sorry, no. I wish you well doing those useful things, though. Just because I'm addicted to emacs doesn't mean everyone else has to be too. 08:24:45 <_3b> Ragnaroek: the developer of cusp visits here sometimes 08:25:25 <_3b> sykopomp: http://www.vpri.org/html/work/ifnct.htm 08:25:44 _3b: yes! I tried it on my XO. 08:25:58 sykopomp: I'm still not getting the ways in which you feel CL is insufficiently 'OO', then. 08:26:25 splittist: it's mostly something I think is worth approaching, I haven't really put too much time into making a list of 'why lisp should be pure OOP' 08:28:30 splittist: I -do- think it would be nice to have a simplish model for modifying actual lisp implementations (not necessarily in a portable way), that works with OO. Being able to subclass the garbage collector and customize it for a certain application, for example. 08:28:31 cusp can only be used with sbcl, I dont't like that 08:28:56 Ragnaroek: can it? I thought it uses the swank protocol 08:29:12 Ragnaroek: so it should be easy to adapt to other implementations 08:29:21 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.11.58] has joined #lisp 08:29:36 (I'm really just goading you to improve it) 08:30:51 sykopomp: what you propose has not very much to do with OOP and very much to do with protocols. 08:30:55 splittist: the added advantage to implementing the language in OO, though, is that you -could-, in fact, standardize it in a way where such extensions would, in fact, be portabel. 08:30:57 portable* 08:31:14 sykopomp: what antifuchs said 08:31:34 I don't know what you mean :-\ 08:31:45 -!- torkel1 [n=torkel@ti100710a081-0128.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:31:56 I need to generate maximally-pretty graphs in common lisp (histograms, line graphs, scatterplots). Should I use vecto or lispbuilder-sdl? (or neither?) 08:32:05 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 08:32:25 mogunus: both seem like good solutions... 08:32:26 taking your gc example, you want a contract between the implementation and the application programmer that regulates how it can be extended 08:32:39 mogunus: speaking of sdl: http://omploader.org/vMWh2MA 08:32:43 mogunus: I've had good results run-program'ing ploticus (: 08:33:07 -!- bobf_ is now known as bobf 08:33:07 but if you make a vecto library that does plots nicely, I'd love to rewrite this program to use it (: 08:33:16 cracki [n=cracki@46-051.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:34:05 Hmm. I'll probably have to use sdl anyway to display the plots. I guess I'll just compare the graphics primitives there with vecto's and see which one I like more... 08:34:11 mogunus: that's lispbuilder-sdl :) 08:34:27 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-106.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:34:32 sykopomp: that's awesome. did you do that? 08:34:51 mogunus: yeah. I've been working on it for the past 3 weeks or so. 08:35:07 that guy's been kicking my ass for most of today. >_> 08:36:45 sykopomp: ultimate sweetness 08:36:53 I wish I had time to hack on fun stuff 08:37:00 I want to finish my treeview widget for ltk 08:37:02 :-( 08:37:04 I wish I had a job 08:37:06 :-( 08:37:12 or a life 08:37:14 :-( 08:37:17 You totally have a life 08:37:35 *I* don't have a life, I do stats homework literally all the time. It's 4AM and I'm programming in R. 08:37:39 barely, man. I need more human contact, i think. 08:38:07 join a roleplaying game 08:38:18 (tabletop) 08:38:20 antifuchs: are protocols and OO mutually exclusive?... 08:38:29 nope, superset 08:38:30 mogunus: meh... 08:39:01 OO is just a tool you can use to make a protocol (: 08:39:51 Oy. Speaking of, I'm out to hit the homework in a more serious way. A sampler just finished running. 08:39:57 g'night all 08:40:09 antifuchs: it seems like a pretty nice tool to do it with, considering the MOP... 08:46:08 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:48:30 I'm about to build a database application for a customer, and MSAccess is probably out of question. I'm looking at Kexi and Pico lisp. Suggestions, anyone? 08:48:41 torkel1 [n=torkel@ti100710a081-0128.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 08:50:00 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@46-051.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:50:42 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.11.58] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:51:10 pdponze [n=fzhsw@167-97.106-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:52:04 how can I undefine a class? 08:52:08 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-506752ff39e65fa6] has joined #lisp 08:53:33 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-506752ff39e65fa6] has left #lisp 08:58:17 (setf (find-class 'some-class) nil) ;; robewald 08:59:12 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:01:09 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 09:04:49 -!- cracki [n=cracki@46-051.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:04:57 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:11:35 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:15:09 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 09:18:30 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:28:12 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:28:53 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-130-214.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:32:08 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:32:16 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Po-ta-to, boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew."] 09:34:03 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 09:36:05 I just had to downgrade Chunga from 1.0.0 to 0.4.3 because the newer version didn't work too well with Hunchentoot 0.15.7. 09:36:39 On SBCL that is. Gave me errors when submitting a form. 09:36:42 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 09:41:34 -!- torkel1 [n=torkel@ti100710a081-0128.bb.online.no] has quit [Client Quit] 09:42:47 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:45:43 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:00:13 -!- seejay_ [n=seejay@202.69.200.5] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:00:23 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Go on, try it!"] 10:01:58 elderK [n=zk@122-57-241-155.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:02:15 Aloha 10:02:45 What is the opinion of you all, about 'side effects'? 10:02:49 assignment and the like? 10:03:06 <_3b> no objections here 10:03:26 so you say, do what makes sense. 10:03:56 <_3b> pretty much 10:04:58 Generaly avoiding side-effects makes things easier to understand. 10:05:03 <_3b> might be sueful to learn to do real code in a more pure function style, just to increase the range of 'what makes sense' 10:05:17 Use them where the benefit outweighs the cost. 10:06:18 Generally speaking, the code of side-effects depends on what they are visible to -- consider a side-effect to be like sending a message to N receivers. 10:07:00 <_3b> true, external side effects are a bit worse 10:07:18 So, side-effects with a small lexical scope are cheap :) 10:07:53 well aye, generally I mean side-effects that are understood and expected. 10:07:55 Say, in a tree. 10:08:01 you insert a node into a tree. 10:08:05 you expect the tree to be modified. 10:08:27 thus, that is a side-effect. New lookups in that tree, can retrieve the new key. Where as they couldn't before. 10:08:34 But generally, that doesn't phase me - since, it's precisely what I want. 10:08:40 If I remove a node, I expect it to be gone. 10:10:46 <_3b> the down side of that, is you have to copy the tree in a lot of places where you might not have had to otherwise 10:11:21 <_3b> while a functional style would have you only copying the path from the modification to the root (or something like that) 10:11:55 <_3b> so it is nice to have both available 10:12:06 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:12:13 well... that assumes you even care :P 10:12:22 <_3b> that too :) 10:12:27 like I said, side-effects on the tree would be expected. 10:12:30 Take the C world. 10:12:40 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483A747.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:12:40 In the C world, you expect the tree to change, the list to have nodes removed, whatever. 10:12:59 It seems to be the Scheme/functional way, to make available all previous 'versions' of whatever ADT. 10:13:00 however, 10:13:16 if that kind of past-remembering facility isn't needed, or used at all, 10:13:20 then why even introduce it? 10:13:30 I mean, it introduces more complication and overhead. 10:13:31 <_3b> yeah, both have uses, so use whichever is appropriate 10:14:03 aye, thats how I feel. If you /need/ the history - if you /need/ to be able to 'unwind' to a previous version of a given ADT, then be refentially friendly :P If not, @!#$ referential stuff. 10:14:04 :P 10:14:06 Amen? 10:14:11 agnel [n=joel@122.166.120.150] has joined #lisp 10:14:15 -!- agnel [n=joel@122.166.120.150] has quit [K-lined] 10:18:52 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:23:35 -!- adityo_ [n=adityo@59.183.62.0] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:23:50 -!- creddy [n=angiospo@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Success] 10:25:11 oh wow. there already exists a js library that plots data in the element. I am so going to use this for boinkmarks. 10:26:56 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 10:30:49 creddy [n=revisit@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 10:31:33 antifuchs: what's the thing about canvas: IE7 doesn't have it, but can fake it, and Chrome has it but it's slow, or something. (I probably have this completely wrong - but, then, you read it on the Internet!) 10:32:05 splittist: these two are what I'd consider minority browsers (: 10:32:54 while I am a fan of accessibility, I don't think I want to spend much time on making my site accessible by the visually or the browserly impaired. 10:33:45 (my site being one that strongly relies on data visualization) 10:34:10 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:35:47 (I think of it as a kind of cloud computing: why generate these images on the server when thousands of web browsers can do the rendering locally) (: 10:36:43 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:37:37 splittist: Chrome has fast canvas. BTW, chromium builds on linux actually have much faster canvas than Linux FF. 10:38:05 ... and on Linux, FF Canvas sucks, at least for animations 10:39:13 ivan4th: did you see cl-smoke? http://tobias.rautenkranz.ch/lisp/cl-smoke 10:40:02 just came out, and apparently uses mudballs rather than asdf. Has autogenerated Lisp functions, which Tobias says are much faster than my attempt, but imply a startup overhead of 20s for him 10:40:07 pretty similar to CommonQt overall 10:40:32 ivan4th: OK - good to know. I think I got that from the etherpad folks. 10:40:43 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:40:53 lichtblau: well, I didn't see it yet 10:41:17 at the development rate that new boinkmarks is coming along, I suppose I'll be done with this when canvas is supported nicely on all browsers anyway (: 10:41:26 (even w3m using aalib, I suppose) 10:45:20 dkcl [n=dkcl@237.66.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:46:01 lichtblau: from what I see right now I can only say it has less examples (just one actually) and that single example is littered with (gc :full t) calls for some reason, which looks a bit suspicious... 10:47:13 does it do a megacons per second?... 10:48:50 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:50:21 could be a stress test. He's using finalization to clean up Qt objects, too, and I know from my own work that it's a little tricky to get right. 10:50:49 there's a little more stuff in qt.examples kde.examples qt.tests 10:50:58 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:13 lichtblau: concerning gc -- yes, probably it's so, I didn't think about it 10:51:42 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:08 I guess competition is good. The more Qt bindings the merrier. 10:55:15 lichtblau: the canvas is supported well enough :) 10:56:06 i've been thinking of implementing canvas stuff for munin 10:57:38 or canvas implementation of it's graphing 10:57:56 s/lichtblau/antifuchs/ perhaps? 10:58:42 cracki [n=cracki@46-051.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:58:45 sorry, antifuchs it is :3 ..to have some way of switching between logarithmic scale 10:59:43 lichtblau: both are in German (i think) so i mix you two up 11:02:06 cracki_ [n=cracki@46-051.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:02:16 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:02:59 -!- Amitabh [n=chatzill@apac-nc06-e0a.oracle.co.in] has left #lisp 11:03:17 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:03:47 adityo [n=adityo@59.183.62.0] has joined #lisp 11:05:36 -!- hugod_ [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633728.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:06:39 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279776576.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:07:47 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 11:09:04 -!- cracki [n=cracki@46-051.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:09:08 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 11:09:23 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:11:14 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [] 11:12:58 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 11:13:10 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 11:13:12 guaqua: (-: 11:13:25 guaqua: you implemented canvas graphing for munin? where is that available? 11:14:15 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-d1871da2acc03362] has joined #lisp 11:14:25 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-d1871da2acc03362] has left #lisp 11:15:08 hello, any ideas why am I getting errors like these when installing with clbuild?: 11:15:10 Invalid repository: http://common-lisp.net/~dcrampsie/darcs/cl-qprint 11:15:10 darcs failed: Failed to download URL http://common-lisp.net/~dcrampsie/darcs/cl-qprint/_darcs/inventory : HTTP error (404?) 11:15:35 stepnem: the file .../_darcs/inventory isn't found 11:15:38 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A5F5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:15:39 the server is available, but there's no 'inventory', just 'hashed_inventory' 11:15:40 yeah 11:15:56 suppose it could be a darcs version incompatibility thing 11:16:01 are you using darcs 2 or 1? 11:16:08 and is the one online from darcs 2? 11:16:16 not sure 11:16:47 I'm using 1.0.9 11:17:39 ah, ok, repository is darcs 2 11:17:40 postamar [n=postamar@76-10-160-143.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 11:18:02 so upgrading my darcs should fix the problem, I suppose... 11:20:33 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:21:16 antifuchs: not implemented, planning to do it :) 11:21:27 antifuchs: did a little drawing program for it, though 11:21:41 -!- postamar [n=postamar@76-10-160-143.dsl.teksavvy.com] has left #lisp 11:22:58 guaqua: that is awesome. let me know how it goes. 11:23:12 stepnem: I suppose it should (: 11:24:02 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:24:16 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 11:24:28 postamar [n=postamar@76-10-160-143.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 11:24:58 frank_s [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has joined #lisp 11:26:36 snippyhollow [n=snippyho@203.160.1.71] has joined #lisp 11:28:54 thanks, it works, :), antifuchs 11:29:04 excellent 11:32:01 frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has joined #lisp 11:33:47 So, who's making cl-spotify? 11:34:28 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:35:12 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:35:13 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:35:46 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student167-193.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 11:37:13 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:39:38 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:40:33 -!- frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:41:38 frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has joined #lisp 11:41:53 <_3b> is there a public repo for chipz anywhere? 11:42:39 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:43:05 milanj [n=milan@77.46.174.153] has joined #lisp 11:44:24 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6ACF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:09 -!- sacamano_m82 [n=user@210.211.191.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:47:13 sacamano_m82 [n=user@210.211.191.225] has joined #lisp 11:47:33 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C8E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:40 mathrick pasted "How to make it print it without #1=?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78243 11:48:07 <_3b> turn off *print-circle*? 11:48:14 tried that, no cigar 11:48:58 <_3b> copy the lists? 11:49:52 well, yes, but it's silly I can't turn it off. Why does it even care they are related? 11:50:15 I could force it by formatting one to a string first 11:50:16 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@46-051.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 11:50:40 but that'd be ugly 11:50:41 <_3b> presumably it is preferred to having error handlers break if they try to print a circular list 11:51:09 sure, but if I turn *print-circle* off, I'm telling it not to do that, no? 11:51:23 hmm, I guess no 11:51:31 okay, FORMAT it is 11:54:36 _3b: only the clbuild mirror, I think 11:54:51 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 11:56:00 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:18 <_3b> lichtblau: chipz you mean? 11:57:28 <_3b> lichtblau: same contents as the tarball, right? 11:59:21 -!- frank_s [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:59:26 yes. I think I asked about the repository at some point, and nfroyd said that he had a hg repository, but no good place to publish it. 12:00:29 <_3b> ok 12:00:47 Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 12:03:08 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:03:35 *deepfire* tries to track down a slot definition init problem in subclasses of STANDARD-CLASS in ECL 12:06:48 The plist representation of a slot definition is called "canonical slot definition"? 12:09:05 -!- aunwork [n=aunwork@mail.ionicsoft.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:09:07 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@nttkyo036048.tkyo.nt.ngn.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:09:36 The term "canonical-slot" pops up in at least CLisp and ECL sources. 12:09:46 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:20 aunwork [n=aunwork@mail.ionicsoft.com] has joined #lisp 12:16:15 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:18:15 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:22 elderK1 [n=zk@122-57-240-21.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:20:13 -!- elderK [n=zk@122-57-241-155.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:20:54 -!- elderK1 [n=zk@122-57-240-21.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 12:26:04 -!- frank_s_ is now known as frank_s 12:29:12 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:09 tabb0t [n=tabb0t@202.83.43.146] has joined #lisp 12:30:29 -!- tabb0t [n=tabb0t@202.83.43.146] has quit [Client Quit] 12:31:46 tabb0t [n=tabb0t@202.83.43.146] has joined #lisp 12:32:40 -!- tabb0t [n=tabb0t@202.83.43.146] has quit [Client Quit] 12:36:53 dtangren [n=dtangren@c-76-125-177-14.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:57 ljosa [n=ljosa@gm3b6-dd5.broad.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 12:41:58 (sb-allocated-size 'stack) => 8 12:42:01 what is this for? 12:43:14 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:44:32 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 12:44:47 tabb0t [n=tabb0t@202.83.43.146] has joined #lisp 12:45:43 -!- snippyhollow [n=snippyho@203.160.1.71] has quit ["reboot"] 12:48:33 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:49:46 nostoi [n=nostoi@244.Red-81-39-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:53 agz [n=mate@fibhost-220-159.fibernet.bacs-net.hu] has joined #lisp 12:52:48 Modius [n=Modius@99.179.96.75] has joined #lisp 12:55:57 snippyhollow [n=snippyho@203.160.1.71] has joined #lisp 12:56:26 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@244.Red-81-39-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 12:57:51 c|mell [n=cmell@nttkyo036048.tkyo.nt.ngn.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:59:00 agz pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78250 12:59:35 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:45 Joreji [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:00:04 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:36 morning 13:00:48 <_3b> agz: are you typing those #:g121 directly? 13:00:57 hi! 13:01:06 'lo 13:01:07 yes 13:01:27 <_3b> agz: #: makes a new symbol every time it is read 13:01:35 I generate code, but not with a macro construct, and I want to use the output - but couldn't 13:01:44 ahem 13:02:22 assuming your code generator is running in Common Lisp, bind *print-circle* and *print-readably* to T before printing anything 13:02:32 if your code generator is not running in Common Lisp, you have already lost 13:02:36 so the after the first #:g100 I should drop # ?? 13:02:56 no 13:03:00 thought paste would format my code 13:03:05 also wrong 13:03:25 <_3b> #1=#:g121 for first one, then #1# in place of second (which is what Xof's suggestion would generate) 13:03:39 Xof: ohh I misunderstood you, i try it 13:05:43 thx all, I understand it now 13:06:27 why would you generate code without a macro anyway? 13:07:28 it would be a macro in the end, but I have only functions for it yet 13:09:43 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["leaving"] 13:12:58 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:14:29 agz: you might wanna use gentemp instead of gensym 13:15:01 (or abstract that away depending on some special variable) 13:15:39 -!- Joreji [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:20:42 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:30 Fare: txh! it works! 13:23:37 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 13:23:41 frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has joined #lisp 13:24:19 -!- LinkFly [n=linkfly@62.140.244.27] has left #lisp 13:26:11 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:39 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:27:47 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 13:29:12 -!- agz [n=mate@fibhost-220-159.fibernet.bacs-net.hu] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:32:48 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-74-158.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:32:56 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6ACF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:33:09 -!- frank_s [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:41:22 -!- free_thinker [n=willijar@eas-nw709pc01.aston.ac.uk] has left #lisp 13:42:45 ruediger [n=the-rued@80.139.106.207] has joined #lisp 13:43:56 ntoll [n=ntoll@82-69-19-185.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:44:01 legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-31-82.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:44:46 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-130-214.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:46:33 oudeis [n=oudeis@80.179.9.158] has joined #lisp 13:47:25 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 13:49:16 <_3b> froydnj: got a moment for some chipz bug reports? 13:49:44 tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:58 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:53:22 adityo_ [n=adityo@59.183.27.108] has joined #lisp 13:53:56 _3b: sure 13:54:51 <_3b> froydnj: ok, first, inflate.lisp has thewrong name for the checksum error conditions, should be 'invalid-checksum-error 13:55:34 frank_s [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has joined #lisp 13:55:45 <_3b> next one will take a sec, need to figure out where it was 13:56:53 brandelune [n=suzume@pl200.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:56:55 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@82-69-19-185.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit ["this is not a quit message"] 13:57:14 mega1: stack frames are at least 8 words high and grow by a certain # of words at a time (might be a vm support routine). 13:57:17 kuhzoo1 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 13:57:42 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1DB78.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:45 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1C4CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:57:53 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 13:58:03 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:58:28 <_3b> froydnj: in inflate.lisp, %inflate funcalls (dstate-update-checksum state), which isn't set for one of the compression types 13:59:17 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-30-114.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:00:14 ah, right. 14:00:22 <_3b> froydnj: last one i'm not quite sure about the fix yet, it gets a checksum error zlib decompressing #(120 156 251 207 0 1 0 8 0 1 0) (which should decompress to #(255 0 0 0 0 0 0 0) ) 14:00:46 <_3b> i think the problem is in inflate.lisp align-bits-bytewise 14:01:07 <_3b> which should shift (inflate-state-bits state) instead of logandc2 14:02:36 pkhuong: I found the uses of it, but don't understand the big picture. Can I just set it to 0 and it will work fine? 14:03:04 <_3b> oh yeah, if mega1 wants bug reports too, 1.0.27 doesn't build on windows 14:03:44 _3b: argh, how does the build fail this time around? 14:04:08 blbrown_lt [n=blbrown@27.sub-70-214-56.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:16 _3b: oh, hm, it should. now...why does this matter? 14:04:58 <_3b> mega1: interrupt.c all_signals_blocked_p undefined, #ifdef out the 3 functions that call it seems to make it build ok 14:05:07 -!- adityo [n=adityo@59.183.62.0] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:05:17 Don't think so. OFP/FP are wired TNs, so their location must be available. So 2 might be the minimum. 14:05:22 <_3b> mega1: blockables_blocked_p gc_signals_blocked_p and deferrables_blocked_p i think 14:05:40 <_3b> froydnj: the shift vs logandc2 you mean? 14:06:03 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:06:03 pkhuong: 3 is the minimum, but the code is like (max 3 (sb-allocated-size 'stack)) so it works out fine 14:06:35 that's lossy. You need to maintain alignment on the stack. 14:07:17 _3b: right. it shouldn't matter too much, because we should always have < 8 bits left in the buffer 14:07:47 <_3b> froydnj: it has 9 when it gets to the checksum on that test case, if i didn't break something else while trying to isolate it 14:08:00 <_3b> (which is possible) 14:08:03 pkhuong: isn't alignment to 4 bytes enough on x86? 14:08:43 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 14:09:01 not for SBCL; we need 2 words, even without DX (we still point to stack allocated stuff via fixnums, e.g. NLX frames). 14:09:03 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-74-158.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 14:10:18 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:12:05 so 4 is the minimum that should work 14:12:15 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:14:40 ok, so actually, pack.lisp could handle wired TNs to a stack frames that must be grown... in principle. 14:14:49 -!- frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:14:54 aht [n=aht@123.16.78.196] has joined #lisp 14:15:00 but not on x86 with our stack allocation madness. 14:16:35 does madness refer to DX or that the control stack is the alien stack? 14:17:08 DX, but also some raw references (to the stack) as fixnums. 14:18:35 what's mad about DX? 14:19:24 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:47 DX is fine; ISTR some code that assumed certain addresses were fixnums though. 14:21:20 anyway. If we want to preserve alignment, the initial size for the stack SB must be even and >= catch-block-size (5 for now), which makes 6 our new lower bound (c.f. grow-sc in pack.lisp). 14:21:56 frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has joined #lisp 14:21:59 -!- eno___ is now known as eno 14:22:37 I'm thinking about this with conservatism in mind, having all those uninitialized stack locations is asking for trouble. 14:23:06 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.16.75] has joined #lisp 14:23:21 -!- pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:24:25 p0a [n=user@athedsl-4409990.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:24:34 if I'm not mistaken, even the non-conservative platforms are in effect conservative due to uninitialized stack locations holding on to stuff. 14:24:35 Hello I have a list and I'd like to be able to iterate it both ways (ie +1 and -1) 14:24:55 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:24:59 There's no requirement to be able to access index i in O(1), just to be able to access element i-1 and i+1 at O(1) 14:25:00 (and also the ones that are not cleaned) 14:25:16 I guess I can change the list to an array, but because this will have to be done many times I was wondering if there's a more elegant solution 14:25:25 p0a: you describe a "doubly-linked list" structure 14:25:33 Xof: have you read this: http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/decline.htm ? you may be interested... his other assays, like the bipolar lisp programmer, is also interesting... 14:25:44 Xof: Yes, I'm aware of that, but do I have to implement the doubly linked list myself? 14:25:59 p0a: yes 14:26:24 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:26:25 is there some implementation I can use instead? either a snippet or a library for data structures 14:26:25 -!- sacamano_m82 [n=user@210.211.191.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:26:45 jlf` [n=user@nmd.sbx05975.petalca.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:47 I'd rather not fiddle with implementing structures I've implemented a lot of times before in other languages :P 14:26:50 sacamano_m82 [n=user@210.211.191.225] has joined #lisp 14:27:08 p0a: cl-containers may have something 14:27:14 attila_lendvai: Thanks 14:27:34 p0a: what if you store two references (to the previous and current nthcdr) ? 14:27:52 there will be no need for a double link list 14:28:08 blandest: I don't know what nthcdr does, I'm going to read about it now 14:28:14 (I can imagine though) 14:28:42 Each element will have to store two references and the data 14:28:43 you hold the rest of the list each time you iterate 14:28:58 correct? something like... (a . (b c)) ? 14:29:25 (although admittedly this is a tree more than a list, but it can work) 14:29:53 -!- sacamano_m82 [n=user@210.211.191.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:29:57 sacamano_m82 [n=user@210.211.191.225] has joined #lisp 14:30:44 you only need two variables to hold the current rest and the previous rest, so this should not alter your initial list 14:31:39 Ah I see what you mean, no, this can't work 14:31:57 see I must be able to access i - 1 with any i 14:32:38 so if I'm at i and I access i - 1 i should also be able to access two elements past that, your solution only works for one element past the current 14:32:43 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:32:57 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:32:57 -!- sacamano_m82 [n=user@210.211.191.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:33:00 I am reading the cl-containers page, perhaps dlist-container is what I'm looking for. http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-containers/documentation/metabang.cl-containers-package/class-dlist--container.html 14:33:03 p0a: that's right 14:33:04 sacamano_m82 [n=user@210.211.191.225] has joined #lisp 14:33:28 -!- sacamano_m82 [n=user@210.211.191.225] has left #lisp 14:33:55 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6F4A2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:00 hm... I'll have to construct a doubly linked list from a list though, so perhaps I should just make it an array 14:34:03 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 14:36:53 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 14:36:56 or instead of creating your list in the first place you should perhaps create a doubly-linked list 14:38:27 Xof: Indeed! :D 14:38:54 _3b: looks like you're right; shifting's the right thing to do. thanks for the bug reports. 14:39:59 <_3b> froydnj: thanks for the lib :) 14:40:48 -!- frank_s [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has quit [Success] 14:40:48 If I get a warning about DOCUDOWN I should install :docudown? 14:41:32 -!- tabb0t [n=tabb0t@202.83.43.146] has quit ["BitchX: No wardrobe malfunctions here!"] 14:41:47 hmm... and with (asdf-install:install :docudown) I get a 404 error on cliki 14:42:10 http://www.cliki.net/CL-MARKDOWN-TEST?download is the link, can anyone help with that? I'm trying to install cl-containers and it tells me unknown format docudown 14:42:47 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-82-197.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 14:42:50 hi 14:43:35 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 14:44:23 rstandy pasted "pass a condition from the debugger to an interactive restart" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78253 14:45:07 could someone please have a look at that function? 14:45:50 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 14:46:22 I'm trying to make it work but having trouble getting the condition from signaled in a restart handler when the handler is invoked from the debugger 14:47:22 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-95-53-181-160.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 14:49:17 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@c-76-125-177-14.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:49:31 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:49:59 -!- kuhzoo1 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:50:03 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:50:08 newlisper [n=wschroed@128.252.233.244] has joined #lisp 14:52:16 Good morning. ;) 14:52:20 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 14:52:53 newlisper: hi 14:55:31 sorry, I mean: I don't know how to get my hands on the condition handled by HANDLER-BIND in the restart fucntion called interactively from the debugger, declared in the RESTART-BIND form 14:55:45 kuhzoo1 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 14:57:58 willb [n=wibenton@wireless62.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:58:06 LostMonarch [n=roby@host246-178-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:58:58 is there somewhere the ansi spec of CL available on the web? 14:59:29 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:59:31 Ragnaroek: The hyperspec is available only AFAIK. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/common-lisp.html 14:59:52 -!- frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:00:04 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:00:15 Ragnaroek: and you can get this which AFAIK was the de facto standard, but don't take this for granted - I'm searching it now http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/cltl2.html 15:00:35 <_death> no, the de facto standard is the clhs 15:00:53 <_death> oh, "was" 15:01:09 the hyperspec would surely be closer to reality than cltl2? 15:01:19 -!- konr[AFK] [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Success] 15:01:26 rsynnott: it is 15:01:26 well, the standard is usually called the "spec" and the "hyperspec" is the spec on the web :p 15:02:01 oh, didn't know that the clhs is derived from the standard :) 15:02:06 as edited by someone-or-other a generation ago :) 15:02:20 It /is/ the standard I believe 15:02:31 I think that's what rsynnott was saying as well 15:04:07 ah: "The HyperSpec is derived from the official standard with permission from ANSI and NCITS (previously known as X3). It contains the full text of the ANSI standard and ancillary information." 15:04:19 so, it's the standard, plus unspecified extra bits 15:04:31 frank_s__ [n=FrankS@41.145.129.3] has joined #lisp 15:04:58 So does anyone know how to help me with my query? 15:05:20 some of these are mildly entertaining: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/I_Categ.htm 15:05:47 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 15:06:15 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.16.75] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:06:43 I'm trying to install 'cl-containers and I get an error, which I googled and found out that I also must install 'docudown 15:06:57 However, (asdf-install:install :docudown) gives me a 404 error from cliki.net 15:07:02 p0a: it appears to be here: http://common-lisp.net/project/docudown/ 15:07:37 p0a: is it giving you a 404 error on docudown itself, or one of its dependencies? 15:07:46 (it seems to itself require cl-markdown) 15:08:18 I noticed and I'm downloading cl-markdown now... I'm going to test again after that 15:09:01 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:09:43 I thought asdf-install only used cliki.net 15:10:13 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 15:10:17 hmm... I'm wondering why cl-containers requires cl-markdown 15:10:18 newlisper: it uses cliki to find out where to download things 15:10:22 cl-markdown has so many dependencies... oh well 15:10:32 dtangren [n=dtangren@c-76-125-177-14.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:38 then actually downloads them from whichever site is pointed to on the cliki page 15:10:43 -!- adityo_ [n=adityo@59.183.27.108] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:10:49 p0a: documentation generation, perhaps? 15:11:28 perhaps, but it doesn't matter, I guess at some point I'd have to install most of these anyway 15:11:54 *rsynnott* has worked with lisp quite happily for a while without installing cl-markdown :) 15:12:04 heh 15:12:16 that said, I've never used cl-containers 15:12:20 md` [n=user@stip-srk131.195-146-143.telecom.sk] has joined #lisp 15:13:20 -!- ASau [n=user@host78-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["Off!"] 15:13:20 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [":wq"] 15:14:28 lisppaste: url 15:14:29 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 15:14:56 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 15:15:30 md pasted "sb-queue leaking memory?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78255 15:16:09 Hi, I tried to locate down leaking in our app, I think it's sb-queue 15:16:40 that's library by Nikodemus - thread safe queue, without mutex using compare-and-swap 15:17:14 -!- kuhzoo1 is now known as kuhzoo 15:17:28 could anybody who has sb-queue somewhere on the drive just sanity check it? 15:17:53 I don't want to put rubbish in sbcl-devel... 15:19:33 <_3b> md`: you aren't leaving stuff in *,**,*** during testing at repl, right? 15:19:42 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 15:19:50 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:19:52 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:20:14 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:20:40 _3b: no, I have tested that from bare repl 15:21:57 if by bare repl you mean the normal sbcl repl, then you are leaving stuff in * 15:22:21 jsnell: ok, I am going to check that 15:23:11 basically, it's sufficient to do (+ 1 2) three times in row to rebind *, ** and *** right? 15:23:20 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:23:23 rsynnott: do you know I can tell cmake in kdebindings to use a Qt installation from /usr/local rather than /usr? 15:25:33 md`: yes 15:25:35 <_3b> md`: should be, you can end every line with (values) to be sure :) 15:25:40 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:26:08 you mean: wrap every line in (progn ... (values)) :-) 15:26:28 <_3b> yeah, probably :) 15:28:38 ok, so it's not leaking 15:28:40 my fauly 15:28:43 fault 15:29:00 rsynnott: oh, set $PATH correctly. Sorry for the noise. :-> 15:29:00 that's why I will always check here before posting crap on sbcl-devel :) 15:29:22 and my neverending search for leak continues :/ 15:29:27 lichtblau: did you get anywhere with win32? 15:29:55 I'm happy to report that I've arrived that a linker error, which I'm guessing is the same as yours. 15:30:21 ah, fun :P 15:30:36 some complaint about the dll not being a proper dll? 15:31:19 no, actually not, just lots of missing symbols. 15:31:26 jlf`` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has joined #lisp 15:31:43 ah, which missing symbols? 15:32:01 hmm, sorry, don't know. I don't have the scrollback anymore. 15:32:02 I think cmake doesn't necessarily tell it to link everything it should 15:32:02 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:20 (I think I had to modify the produced makefile a bit) 15:32:45 It was very internal-ish-looking stuff. Looked more like a C++ ABI mismatch or something. 15:32:51 That was with a Qt from the KDE installer though. I've grabbed a fresh Qt binary for windows, and that immediately complained that my MinGW isn't the right version. After fixing that, I'm now back to compiling on Linux to grab the right version of the headers, and then I can try again. 15:32:57 There's still hope! 15:33:15 rullie_ [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176149127.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:34:02 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:34:03 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 15:34:42 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 15:36:15 -!- jlf` [n=user@nmd.sbx05975.petalca.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:36:32 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-185.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:37:30 If only lisp libraries were as portable as C++ ones... 15:37:58 then lisp would be really popular 15:38:03 just like C++ 15:39:08 ha ha ha 15:41:45 isn't C++ still beloved by all? 15:41:59 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:42:09 With lispbuilder-sdl, how can I find the dimensions of the current X session? 15:42:11 (one of those mandatory vague knowledge languages, where everyone knows about 1% of it) 15:42:12 So is hell, we are told 15:42:29 at least it's popular 15:43:04 -!- shizzy0 [n=shane@c-76-105-6-146.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:43:32 rsynnott: Have you seen how big C++ is? 1% is too much ;-) 15:43:34 Yeah, and at least it promotes code monkey-ism and ugly code and no one actually writes portable code and no one actually bla bla bla 15:43:54 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151257.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:44:04 The standard > 700 pages of small text. It's the ugliest thing I've ever seen 15:44:22 I'm glad that all you 1% people are arguing as though you know 99% 15:46:01 "The standard is > 1000 pages of HTML. It's the ugliest HTML I've ever seen" 15:46:24 -!- rullie_ [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176149127.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:46:39 Xof: that's a horrible thing to say about the clhs! 15:49:45 lichtblau pasted "C++ linker error for rsynnott" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78258 15:50:45 -!- ljosa [n=ljosa@gm3b6-dd5.broad.mit.edu] has left #lisp 15:51:14 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176149127.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:51:28 ooh, that sort of looks like different compilers used 15:52:53 khisanth_ [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-97-76.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:22 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-205-118-127.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:53:42 mega1: how about modifying the prologue to zero out unused stack locations? 15:53:54 We have access to that information in the VOP. 15:53:58 Samy [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:08 pkhuong: access to what information? 15:54:22 <_3b> lichtblau: does it need a -lqt or something? 15:54:32 whether each location in the SB is used by a TN somewhere. 15:55:31 that would help, but there is still the question of what to do when stack location is not used anymore 15:55:40 -!- khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 15:55:40 it would be rather slow though 15:56:23 I'm in the area and adding stuff to frame allocation slow sbcl down measurably. 15:57:25 _3b: wow, you're right. -lQtCore4 did it. 15:57:34 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:57:41 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:17 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:00:20 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:00:24 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.235.225] has joined #lisp 16:04:10 *splittist* wonders if his static language programming approach - add casts until the wiggly lines go away - is somehow flawed... 16:04:45 adding or removing the const keyword may also be useful 16:04:46 :) 16:07:20 -!- Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:08:32 ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 16:09:20 should setf places be restricted to real places or is it ok to use it for an algorithm ? as in (setf (array-range array start end) value) ? 16:10:08 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has left #lisp 16:10:22 you can defined your own setf functions, which can do whatever you want 16:10:56 stassats`: but is it common practice, or does it feel strange to you ? 16:11:32 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 16:11:49 would you write a set-array-range or a (setf (array-range ...)) ? 16:11:57 well, i use pair of functions, one for setting values and one for getting 16:12:04 kuwabara: I like it because I understand what I am reading. 16:12:10 kuwabara: the latter 16:12:20 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:13:08 ok, thanks 16:15:53 kuwabara: does (setf (array-range array start end) (array-range array start end)) make sense? 16:19:57 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:20:04 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:21:01 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@80.179.9.158] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:24:17 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a65443@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7d2c555ee320bd5d] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:25:00 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:25:08 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-4a234ed59df0a962] has joined #lisp 16:26:37 yay 16:26:44 I wrote a simple image viewer 16:27:25 sundar [i=IceChat7@59.92.102.117] has joined #lisp 16:27:36 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-4409990.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["cu"] 16:28:59 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@80.139.106.207] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:30:56 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:42 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6ACF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:48 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:34:27 oudeis [n=oudeis@77.124.71.204] has joined #lisp 16:41:08 booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:19 *antifuchs* writes a simplistic migration facility for his postmodern setup 16:45:28 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 16:45:52 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:46:22 -!- ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:46:51 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:47:46 I just end up in ldb with: * fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 16594(tid 140621512546640): 16:47:46 unexpect forwarding pointer in scavenge: 0x1009fc0380, start=0x1009fc0000, n=% 16:47:46 16:47:53 Is there something to do? 16:48:08 I mean, for somebody to locate the bug? 16:48:12 try to reproduce 16:49:08 deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:35 Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:52:49 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:52:58 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:53:13 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6ACF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:54:16 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Success] 16:56:55 -!- Jarv2 is now known as Jarvellis 16:59:07 -!- postamar [n=postamar@76-10-160-143.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [] 17:06:25 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:06:51 -!- tombom [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 17:07:35 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 17:08:52 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:09:35 I dunno if this is old, but it is funny.. at least for those of you toiling in the pissmire of the web: http://www.wikimaniacs.com/best404error 17:12:58 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279776576.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 17:14:02 it's old indeed 17:15:15 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-99-33-30-119.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:14 down to 7 files with differences 17:16:46 and still clisp crashes in cold-init 17:16:52 I am beginning to suspect genesis more and more 17:19:46 md`: do you have any code at (safety 0) or foreign code that might write in the lisp heap? 17:20:37 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@167-55.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["No flood or creation jokes from me!"] 17:20:53 -!- futuresoon [n=futureso@cpe-68-175-67-66.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:57 -!- snippyhollow [n=snippyho@203.160.1.71] has quit ["Night alls"] 17:22:16 pschorf [n=paul@isr5018.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 17:22:22 -!- pschorf [n=paul@isr5018.urh.uiuc.edu] has left #lisp 17:23:59 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 17:24:02 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:24:07 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 17:25:29 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:40 pkhuong: no, we have '(optimize (speed 3) (space 3) (safety 1) (compilation-speed 0)) on places where speed matters 17:25:46 and no ffi code, pure lisp 17:26:18 but I was playing with atilla's stuff for heap walking 17:26:47 and it often ends up in corrupted image 17:26:47 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:26:52 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 17:32:58 ikki [n=ikki@189.240.39.137] has joined #lisp 17:33:35 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:34:44 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 17:36:58 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:42:11 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:43:05 bionic [n=bionic@nom28047d.nomadic.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:45:55 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 17:45:56 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 17:45:56 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:47:16 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:47:20 If anybody knows a better way of getting a mime type of a file, please let me know. http://paste.lisp.org/display/78263 It seems like most of ppl are just guessing it from the extension. 17:47:32 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:48:09 p0a [n=user@athedsl-4409990.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:48:11 Hello 17:48:12 tomoyuki28jp: most Unix systems have an /etc/mime.types -- which is still just guessing from the extension, of course 17:49:16 http://paste.lisp.org/display/78265 17:49:27 Ogedei: oh, I see. thanks for the info. 17:49:45 I get style warnings about undefined function window, even though sdl:window _is_ a function I use frequently 17:50:26 and I also get an error, before that style warning, "in macroexpansion of LISPBUILDER-SDL:WITH-EVENTS" 17:53:34 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 17:54:13 mxb [n=mxb@bealbywm.plus.com] has joined #lisp 17:55:33 heh... nevermind... I had somehow hit 'p' on my text editor and hadn't realized the source code was doubled 17:55:47 tomoyuki28jp: this repo has code for copy-paste'ing: http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi/darcsweb.cgi?r=cl-dwim-wui;a=summary 17:55:54 reads /etc/mime.types 17:56:45 Ogedei: if you're using linux you most likely already have /usr/lib/libmagic.so: write an FFI binding to it 17:57:10 tomoyuki28jp: that was for you :) 17:57:14 attila_lendvai: I will take a look at it, thanks! 17:57:29 Joreji [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:57:37 fe[nl]ix: thanks for the info, I will take a look at it. 17:58:07 tomoyuki28jp: see the man pages libmagic(3) and magic(4) 17:58:18 fe[nl]ix: I will, thanks! 17:58:25 p0a: Did you find any good learning resources for CL-SDL (or SDL)? 17:59:23 fe[nl]ix: file command does the magic test, right? 17:59:31 newlisper: No I didn't, but I was reading the docs 17:59:33 -!- aht [n=aht@123.16.78.196] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:00:01 and another mistake was that I had (:key-down-event (&key key) ... but it had to be (:key key)... I wish I was typo'ing less :D 18:00:16 wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-117-45.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 18:00:28 -!- sundar [i=IceChat7@59.92.102.117] has left #lisp 18:02:27 tomoyuki28jp: exactly 18:05:29 -!- bionic [n=bionic@nom28047d.nomadic.ncsu.edu] has left #lisp 18:06:44 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-17-205-118.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:56 -!- legumbre` is now known as legumbr 18:07:59 -!- legumbr is now known as legumbre 18:08:56 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A5F5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:09:45 aht [n=aht@123.16.78.196] has joined #lisp 18:10:13 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 18:11:11 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:11:37 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:14 Ijeroj [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:14:51 -!- Joreji [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:15:32 Is there some way to have a list be "unwrapped" into its elemens so I can use these as parameters? Sort of something like `,@(list 1 2) <=> (values 1 2) 18:15:47 apply? 18:16:36 ah, thanks stassats`. 18:17:22 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 18:19:06 After I invoke (view "/home/p0a") two times, the third 'p' apparently gets the value nil, and in the fourth sbcl exits without a message 18:19:20 The first two times it works as supposed, it displays in sequence all the images in the directory 18:19:35 (Actually, I invoke it with (view "/home/p0a/")) 18:19:40 Ijeroj: see values-list 18:19:59 http://paste.lisp.org/display/78265#1 Here is the source code 18:20:41 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4b74.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:21:50 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 18:22:48 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-220-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:23:22 fe[nl]ix: Hmm that one is cool, but it sorta doesn't seem to work: (labels ((some-fun (x y) (+ x y))) (some-fun (values-list (list 1 2)))) 18:23:42 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.190.219] has joined #lisp 18:24:17 in that case it's apply that you want 18:25:01 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:25:42 Ijeroj: see (apply #'some-fun (list 1 2)) and (multiple-value-call #'some-fun (values 1 2)) 18:26:37 p0a: insteaed of (loop for i in (list-dir ...)) you could use (remove-if-not #'valid-image (list-directory ...)) 18:27:01 that's not about the problem, just a note 18:27:06 stassats`: right! thanks for that 18:27:11 Joreji [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:27:40 indeed, but I don't mind such criticism because I'm still new to common lisp and don't know the standard library very well 18:27:46 and unless p instead of when (not p) 18:28:22 What is the function that dumps statistics about memory usage, number of objects, etc? 18:28:29 room 18:28:33 Ah! Thanks! 18:29:38 -!- Ijeroj [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:31:51 p0a: and also take a look at POP for removing the first element of a list 18:32:54 Good evening. 18:34:16 stassats`: for what reason? 18:34:40 stassats`: I mean, how can I use pop to my benifit in that program? 18:35:56 first (show-image (pop p) surface) and second (if p (show-image (pop p) show-image (sdl:quit..))) 18:36:32 (if p (show-image (pop p) surface) (sdl:quit..)) i meant 18:38:42 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:39:02 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.190.219] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:39:02 Ah, thanks stassats` I'll change this too 18:39:41 As for my main bug, I tracked it down to (remove-if-not #'valid-image (list-directory p))... #'valid-image does thi 18:39:42 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:40:03 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:40:32 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:41:18 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176149127.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:41:39 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176149127.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:42:30 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176149127.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 18:42:51 -!- jao [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:45:49 jao [n=jao@obfw.oblong.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:04 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-47-197.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 18:46:09 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4b74.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 18:46:23 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-197-216-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 18:46:38 borism [n=boris@195-50-197-216-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 18:48:21 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:15 josemanuel [n=josemanu@134.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:55:46 -!- smanek [n=smanek@mail.cra.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:58:45 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 18:58:48 -!- jlf`` is now known as jlf` 18:59:00 LinkFly [n=linkfly@62.140.244.27] has joined #lisp 18:59:07 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.157.39] has quit ["GoDaddy's claim isn't just based on comparing apples to oranges; it's multiplying oranges by apples, dividing by peach and] 18:59:39 mjf [n=mjf@r3a67.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 19:01:03 xyblor [n=nik@75-119-230-137.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:17 chessguy [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:42 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:02:48 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:03:11 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:03:12 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:04:00 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:04:08 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-47-197.ucr.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:04:27 -!- aht [n=aht@123.16.78.196] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:05:23 Here's my new source code 19:05:23 http://paste.lisp.org/display/78265#3 19:05:39 Ignore the last function which is a comment, and do not run this code if you're doign something important because I had to restart my X 19:05:56 Does anyone know why this fails? 19:06:56 [ev] [n=niklas@ua-83-227-230-90.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:07:07 Another idea is to change the two "when" with a cond 19:07:12 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:07:24 if that worked, it would be an impressively small image viewer 19:07:26 gonzojive [n=red@DNab412d2f.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:09:03 xyblor: in previous annotations of the post the definition of list-directory is missing, because I took it from _Practical Common Lisp_ (I mention that too - in previous annotations) 19:09:52 creddy_ [n=industri@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 19:09:56 and I think the author of PCL and the SDL team deserve more credit than me because it's just some simple code that uses functions they wrote 19:10:08 do you like SDL? 19:10:42 I don't know, the C API seemed good. As you see I have troubles with common lisp 19:10:46 How does it fail? 19:10:54 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:11:49 Zhivago: My X server stopped responding, and before that the code was a bit different and it failed with a message I can't remember 19:12:10 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-200.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 19:12:15 Actually X did not stop responding, it responded to ctrl+alt+backspace, but I had to restart 19:12:22 -!- creddy_ is now known as visage 19:12:52 -!- visage is now known as Guest16289 19:13:00 are there alternatives to SDL for 2D images? 19:13:25 SDL is a media layer for various devices... SDL_Image is just an extension 19:13:40 oh, you mean alternative common lisp libraries? 19:13:44 yeah 19:13:48 I don't know that sorry 19:14:15 A bit vague. bbl. 19:14:18 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-17-205-118.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:14:44 -!- creddy [n=revisit@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:15:05 http://www.cliki.net/graphics%20library 19:15:20 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:50 ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@88-108-126-11.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 19:15:55 I'm not really looking for a graphics library though :-) I wrote the image viewer to get used to the SDL binding and common lisp (I'm still new to common lisp) 19:16:04 my aim is to write silly 2D games 19:16:09 ah 19:16:37 thanks though, I'll take a look at that regardless 19:16:49 is anyone writing 2D games in lisp these days? 19:16:51 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:17:10 I know there was one called "Abuse" 19:18:05 Is anyone writing 2D games these days at all? 19:18:10 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-30-236.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:18:11 mulander [n=opera@nat-4.interq.pl] has joined #lisp 19:18:12 haha 19:18:26 p0a: in some places, a lot of people... 19:18:38 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.235.225] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:19:00 p_l: perhaps, but I think you will agree that except for some dedicated active projects, the industry tends towards 3D only nowadays 19:19:15 to be honest I don't give a crap about what the industry does I'm doing all this for fun and to learn 19:19:39 dec142 [n=Declan@86-45-249-216-dynamic.b-ras3.mvw.galway.eircom.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:39 p0a: I haven't played a 3D game in long time. Last one I played was 2D-only 19:20:19 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 19:20:42 Look - same, I play some 2D games on emulators, but we're in #lisp aren't we? I mean we're not the average gamer 19:21:15 there's some ascii games in lisp 19:21:27 I know the one on lisperati :-) 19:21:38 do ascii games count as having a fractal dimention? 19:21:43 -!- dec142 [n=Declan@86-45-249-216-dynamic.b-ras3.mvw.galway.eircom.net] has left #lisp 19:22:31 -!- Guest16289 is now known as creddy 19:22:37 I'm not sure how the concept of fractals applies to games. 19:23:07 heh, I thought it didn't make sense but I waited for someone more mathematically inclined to answer 19:23:31 argh, I can't find the bug, I'll sleep and have a look at this again tomorrow. bye everyone 19:24:04 bye 19:24:39 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-4409990.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 19:25:09 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.143.204] has joined #lisp 19:25:43 dto has a 2d game in common lisp 19:26:13 #lispgames may be interesting :) (dto's game is based on rlx) 19:26:16 a rogue-like platform game. 19:26:22 in fact dto built rlx 19:28:01 how the heck can you have a roguelike platform game? 19:28:14 one is side view and the other is top down view 19:28:36 or is it a turn based platform game? 19:28:48 i think the view in dto's game is actually isometric; i can't remember at this point. 19:28:59 it is turn based. 19:29:49 p0I was playing a new PC game :P 19:30:07 xyblor: top-down, turnbased. There are some youtube videos available about it 19:30:27 and I'm gettinganother 2D one when I confirm that translation is full 19:32:19 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:07 guys, i have a question - do all the common lisp distributions have the same bytecode standard ? 19:34:00 no 19:34:03 SandGorgon: No. I recommend not mixing fasls even from the same system but different versions 19:34:26 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-117-45.liwest.at] has quit [] 19:36:16 does the common lisp standard define a bytecode set, that needs to be implemented to be called... CL ? 19:36:19 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host246-178-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 19:36:24 no 19:37:19 alright.. thanks.. 19:37:31 many CL implmementations always compile directly to native code and never use any bytecode 19:37:37 SandGorgon: Many implementations don't have bytecode per se 19:38:37 yeah.. i'm aware of that - but I was confused, since that didnt necessarily mean that there should'nt be a standardised CL bytecode 19:38:46 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 19:40:39 why should there? 19:41:01 there's already standardized Common Lisp code. 19:41:15 a standartized non-source code distribution format would be nice 19:41:22 SandGorgon: It would make it quite hard for implementors, as many important lisp implementations based their code on 36bit cpus 19:41:48 (or at least some folks who are not dogmatic about free software seem to think so) 19:42:41 of course that hypothetical distribution "bytecode" wouldn't need to be directly executable, just loadable 19:43:57 xyblor: it's overhead view for now, but gravity can be implemented and i was going to try implementing a platformer on rlx soon. 19:44:03 I am actually learning lisp (using Lehmann's raytracer tutorial). coming from a java world, I was very curious on the reason why Java has a standardised bytecode on every platform. Dont they face similar issues, or does the language protect itself from that problem? 19:44:07 Fade: i implemented pseudo-realtime 19:44:11 cmm: well, python doesn't have one of those 19:44:22 dto: what graphics library did you use? 19:44:23 cmm: I haven't heard anyone really complain about that 19:44:30 xyblor: lispbuilder-sdl. it's great 19:44:45 is this significantly better than cl-sdl? 19:44:52 foom: I think I'm chanelling Naggum on this. I don't really have my own deeply felt opinion 19:44:59 xyblor: cl-sdl is very old, IIRC 19:45:02 nor does Javascript, of course, which is one of the most popular languages today 19:45:17 someone just needs to make a code-obfuscator for lisp and they'll be all set. :) 19:45:27 pretty much, yes 19:45:29 xyblor: lispbuilder is nice and has active development and developers who always answer my mails and questions. 19:45:42 even Java, which does have bytecode, is almost trivially decompileable into source unless you've run it through an obfuscator first. 19:45:48 foom, PLOT, the programmable obfuscator! 19:46:00 -!- ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@88-108-126-11.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:46:05 That's because Java was created by a company interested in having executable bytecode that could "run" on many machines. Notice the citation marks :> 19:46:14 dto: what library would you use if you were writing an image viewer? 19:46:18 pjb [n=t@183.Red-88-14-52.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:21 foom: Assuming you used Java 19:46:32 p_l: it worked, hasn't it? 19:46:52 CL obfuscation would be a really hard problem 19:46:58 cmm: as a marketing ploy, it's been amazing 19:47:35 xyblor: either clx or sdl 19:47:37 xyblor: brb 19:47:48 dlowe: as a engineering solution to a real problem it's also been amazing 19:48:12 jsnell: yes, if they had come up with the idea, it would have been amazing 19:48:23 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 19:48:24 sure, I've got my favorite stories of tiny jvm incompabilities causing trouble 19:48:27 but the java portability does work - and it does deliver on performance, so I was curious on why a similar thing cannot be achieved by .. say lisp 19:48:28 dto: okay, I'm just curious since someone else was working on an image viewer. I'm not going to do anything graphical for a long long time. 19:48:41 dlowe: I suspect this caused no small amount of envy among lisp vendors and commercial users at the time. not enough to actually develop a bytecode format, but enough to talk about it :) 19:48:48 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:48:56 but in practice those stories are only interesting because they were such a rare occurence, unlike CL code portability 19:49:06 SandGorgon: there are different implementations that are way further away from each other than the java spec 19:49:26 well, how should i put it... 19:49:46 guaqua: ahh.. 19:49:48 there's one java spec that is but a little subset of what common lisp is 19:50:49 common lisp historically is a unification of different lisps 19:51:09 java is a language that was designed intentionally to be like it is 19:51:23 or should i say, java and jvm 19:51:37 there's always abcl: common lisp to jvm class files 19:52:41 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:05 Is there a way to make C-M-@ work at the end of an sexp too? (C-M-@ marks the whole S-Expression after point) 19:53:21 Yes. 19:53:45 pjb: How? 19:54:48 xyblor: ok cool 19:54:57 Well, not "too", but "instead". Or else you would have to give an heuristic to choose between before or after. 19:54:57 By writting an emacs lisp command to do so, and bind it to C-M-@. 19:54:57 It's rather easily done. Mind the nice forward-sexp emacs lisp function. 19:56:22 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 19:56:22 19:56:22 -!- names: ccl-logbot cads quamaretto manic12_ Jasko HET2 pjb Phoodus SandGorgon pstickne mulander sepult gigamonk` postamar creddy gonzojive [ev] xyblor mjf LinkFly josemanuel jeremiah borism mega1 jao stassats Athas Joreji jmbr_ ecraven nvoorhies dstatyvka mxb ikki araujo saikat schoppenhauer Jarvellis deat Davidbrcz booyaa oudeis dialtone mrsolo amnesiac Samy Khisanth Nshag jlf` sohail athos Cel md` dtangren frank_s__ willb kuhzoo newlisper cracki gemelen 19:56:22 -!- names: rstandy fiveop attila_lendvai jewel bobbysmith007 blbrown_lt segv_ brandelune tsuru legumbre LiamH manic12 c|mell Modius dlowe existentialmonk aunwork Taggnostr tritchey sellout The-Kenny milanj ianmcorvidae vy hkBst moesenle Tristam mejja Yuuhi daniel pdponze Soulman ehu` ffx` Jabberwockey xinming eno slash_ spacebat_ s0ber xan lichtblau bugrum decaf ia SportChick bobf erk abeaumont cavelife^ S11001001 kpreid benny Fufie BrianRice bdowning proq 19:56:22 -!- names: Patzy cmm a-s yahooooo joga pitui` plotnick beach yango addled KingNato hyperboreean nullwork wchogg stepnem dmiles_afk madnificent joast dto plutonas elias` tweek__ Dave2 nasloc__ antgreen ``Erik holycow djinni` tic Aisling srcerer rread sad0ur fe[nl]ix mgr sphex trebor_d` Buganini ivan4th rotty boyscared metasyntax rlpowell wentbackward ilitirit joshe _CitizenKane_ lemoinem froog guenthr wlr deepfire _death ramus` bkudria glogic ceineke_ Thas 19:56:22 -!- names: billstclair myrkraverk` Tordek emma enodran mikezor dfox jsnell AntiSpamMeta Qsource mtd retupmoca gz Riastradh REPLeffect mathrick TDT authentic kidd2 Fade mogunus plan9 jyujin jrockway Ppjet6 dostoyevsky pitui Guest31752 pkhuong alexbobp Dazhbog rlonstein vsync sanguinev maskd cods robewald rodge aking clog p8m nicktastic DrForr hefner mornfall scode sjbach specbot rumbleca bittin- nooper cipher jso cYmen froydnj tttsssttt zbigniew albino guaqua 19:56:22 -!- names: kooll rsynnott eirik repnop p_l Borbus prip bfein djkthx ryepup1 phadthai Quadrescence kreuter maxote nullman` peddie bob_f herbieB housel Ginei_Morioka chii jho anekos fgtech slyrus lnostdal cmatei l_a_m Adrinael z0d minion lisppaste foom frodef qebab Draggor tarbo ampleyfly _3b Zhivago vcgomes luis kefka Soulman__ koning_robot drewc ineiros kg4qxk michaelw krappie johs xristos tltstc felipe @antifuchs _dima kuwabara frontiers jlf pragma_ pok 19:56:22 -!- names: Bucciarati easch azuk Xof thijso dcrawford meingbg wgl fnordus Martinp23 sykopomp 19:56:45 sykopomp|work [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 19:56:52 i'd rather use C-M-Space 19:56:57 someguy234234 [n=user@atlaswireless.nomads.utk.edu] has joined #lisp 19:57:29 Is there a pretty-printer that looks good enough to use for all code formating? 19:57:46 hex dump 19:57:49 stassats: C-M-Space is perfect! Thank you. 19:58:53 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:01:41 -!- gonzojive [n=red@DNab412d2f.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 20:02:57 someguy234234: emacs' built in ps-print-buffer-with-faces is decent. it makes ps files. also you could try GNU Enscript 20:03:14 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:03:20 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:04:39 hi, has anybody heard of SBCL installed as a procedural language for Postgres? 20:05:44 or any other Common Lisp? 20:06:56 benny` [n=benny@i577A1C83.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:07:06 dto: By prety-print I mean code formating, indentation, etc. 20:07:28 someguy234234: you are looking to re-indent the code file itself? 20:10:02 Yes, but not just indentation, line breaks also. 20:10:02 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-210-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:28 someguy234234: i think gnu makes something that will do that to C (and perhaps other) files 20:10:40 uroboros [n=mjf@r6cs96.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 20:12:10 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 20:12:35 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:15:38 -!- blbrown_lt [n=blbrown@27.sub-70-214-56.myvzw.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:17:08 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:18:07 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 20:20:26 -!- mxb [n=mxb@unaffiliated/mxb] has quit ["zzzz"] 20:21:34 nostoi [n=nostoi@223.Red-88-3-194.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:51 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1DF4.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:02 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r3a67.net.upc.cz] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:23:44 -!- someguy234234 [n=user@atlaswireless.nomads.utk.edu] has left #lisp 20:23:55 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-200.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 20:28:44 -!- repnop [n=repnop@adsl-69-226-99-176.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:38:11 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 20:41:02 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:42:47 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0B79F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:12 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0B79F.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 20:43:52 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@134.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 20:44:19 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.143.204] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:46:30 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:48 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.143.204] has joined #lisp 20:49:53 -!- uroboros [n=mjf@r6cs96.net.upc.cz] has quit [""GNU is NO UNIX!""] 20:50:54 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:52:30 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:52:58 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:12 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6ACF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:24 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:04 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 21:07:34 foom: Some of them, like clojure, are not decompilable into java 21:12:14 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:12:14 myst [n=myst@dynamic-vpdn-93-125-64-52.telecom.by] has joined #lisp 21:14:28 -!- jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has left #lisp 21:14:45 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 21:14:53 -!- myst [n=myst@dynamic-vpdn-93-125-64-52.telecom.by] has left #lisp 21:15:52 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6F4A2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 21:16:49 garslo [n=user@ppp-69-217-237-247.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:29 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 21:19:44 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279776576.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:20:16 -!- mulander [n=opera@nat-4.interq.pl] has left #lisp 21:21:22 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 21:23:42 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:25:15 -!- newlisper [n=wschroed@128.252.233.244] has left #lisp 21:27:50 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.240.39.137] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:28:11 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 21:28:11 puchacz: drewc was talking about using common lisp (sbcl) with postgresql triggers a few days ago, but I don't know the details 21:28:34 ejs [n=eugen@244-17-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:38 Fade: few days ago? excellent, I'll catch him, thanks 21:29:06 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-95-53-181-160.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 21:30:13 -!- md` [n=user@stip-srk131.195-146-143.telecom.sk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:30:28 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:30:42 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:38 -!- sykopomp|work [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:33:33 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:34 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@77.124.71.204] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:35:55 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4b74.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:37:11 p0a [n=user@athedsl-4409990.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 21:37:20 Hello how do I convert #P"foo" to a string sequence "foo" 21:37:58 clhs namestring 21:37:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_namest.htm 21:38:20 thanks 21:39:09 oudeis [n=oudeis@77.124.71.204] has joined #lisp 21:40:08 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@c-76-125-177-14.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 21:40:41 Hmm... I get warnings from sbcl 21:41:08 about undefined :key and key... even though that's how the macro works and I've used it before (sdl:with-events () (:key-down-event (:key key) ... 21:41:19 what warnings? 21:41:48 I'll post them with source 21:43:19 aggieben [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 21:43:48 http://paste.lisp.org/display/78286 is the source, http://paste.lisp.org/display/78286#1 is the output from sbcl 21:44:03 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:44:37 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:45:14 I realized in line (> (length p) 3) I must change it to (> (length (namestring p)) 3), but that bug was not the culprit 21:45:17 sdl:with-events instead of sdl-with-events? 21:45:37 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@223.Red-88-3-194.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:45:44 ah yes! thanks :-) 21:45:56 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:45:59 so many mistakes like this one... I guess it's time to rest some 21:46:35 Hmm... now :video-expose-event is undefined 21:47:03 wrong parenthesis 21:47:30 roark [n=roark@admin161-252.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 21:47:31 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 21:47:41 Is this a guess? Because I don't see anything 21:48:19 no, i am sure 21:48:36 indentation will help you to see 21:49:02 look how :video-expose-event is indented 21:49:19 I yes I found it 21:49:32 the indentation is almost manual 21:49:39 hi, i'm trying to connect to swank from a remote machine. in my remote *Messages* buffer I see "Connected. Hacks and glory await!" but no repl appears. when i slime-connect from another emacs on the local machine the repl does appear. what am i missing? 21:50:12 slime-repl contrib? 21:51:12 -!- ejs [n=eugen@244-17-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:51:45 oh, that must be it. i set it up on the local machine after it moved into contrib but not the remote machine. thanks. 21:51:49 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279776576.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 21:51:59 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483A747.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:52:19 stassats: Now, one last question if you're familiar with lispbuilder-sdl -- if not don't search for it no need to bother, but if you know it on top of your head please tell me, do you know how I could obtain the default display size? Ie the monitors size 21:52:53 no, never used it 21:53:03 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 21:53:06 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:07 -!- [ev] [n=niklas@ua-83-227-230-90.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Lämnar"] 21:53:57 alright then, my code works thanks to you stassats and others here, and I can finally go to sleep. :) 21:53:59 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-4409990.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 21:58:05 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:58:29 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@77.124.71.204] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:01:25 -!- pjb [n=t@183.Red-88-14-52.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:01:42 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 22:03:17 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:05:08 -!- roark [n=roark@admin161-252.hampshire.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:08:55 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6F4A2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:06 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6F4A2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:09:43 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-30-236.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:13:08 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:13:52 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279776576.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:14:01 -!- deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 22:14:14 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:14:45 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-210-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:16 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:27 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 22:18:40 aggieben_ [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:08 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-14618.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:19:11 jfactor [n=jfactor@student165-229.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 22:20:05 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:22:11 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 22:22:52 cpc26 [n=user@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 22:23:10 xyblor: there is a megaman roguelike that has gravity and is side view despite having character-cell graphics. 22:24:13 -!- cpc26 [n=user@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 22:26:32 febeling [n=febeling@p5B25EE66.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:57 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:28:00 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 22:28:34 did Noam Chomsky have anything to do with the development of Lisp? 22:28:46 random question from another channel 22:29:50 glogic_ [n=glogic@5ess.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:52 -!- glogic_ [n=glogic@5ess.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:29:56 -!- aggieben [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:31:11 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 22:36:35 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-185.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:38:21 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 22:43:22 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:08 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:27 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-181-111.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:51:01 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 22:52:20 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless62.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:52:41 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:57:03 dto: somehow turn-based sideview is incomprehensible to me 22:57:45 -!- cads [n=max@adsl-218-8-123.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:00:03 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxyXHeOJK-A 23:00:36 <--- the game. i've never played it tho. 23:01:15 so it doesn't look turn based 23:01:26 oh, i misread 23:01:28 yeah it's realtime 23:01:43 i have a pseudo-realtime roguelike i'm working on . it's a new feature of the engine and not quite perfect 23:01:45 wanna see? 23:01:54 I wonder what it's doing in the 7drl challenge 23:02:01 okay 23:02:02 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWHjn41_L-U&feature=channel_page&fmt=22 23:02:26 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:02:45 looks pretty crazy 23:02:56 it's pre-alpha right now but fun :) 23:03:05 it started out as a combination of Asteroids and Snake 23:03:14 where you have no gun, only a vapor trail 23:04:27 the sound didn't record in that video for some reason 23:04:55 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.143.204] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:05:15 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [No route to host] 23:05:16 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 23:06:35 ltriant [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:07:59 huh, which library is the recommended one for generating json output? I have just into a bug with regards to float printing /-: 23:08:23 (cl-json prints stuff in exponent notation on ccl sometimes, which of course generates js syntax errors) 23:09:17 minion: tell antifuchs about yason 23:09:18 antifuchs: look at yason: YASON is a Common Lisp library for encoding and decoding data in the JSON interchange format. http://www.cliki.net/yason 23:09:27 sweet, thanks! 23:09:45 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 23:10:10 antifuchs: see also http://www.method-combination.net/blog/archives/2009/01/24/common-lisp-and-javascript.html 23:10:16 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-99-33-30-119.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 23:12:00 fe[nl]ix: awesome, this describes pretty much what I want to do, except I'm going to plot lisp implementation speed time series and I'm going to use flot instead of plotkit (: 23:12:37 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 23:13:09 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:13:57 -!- aggieben_ [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609]"] 23:14:04 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 23:14:09 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 23:14:12 Just had a thought - related to a few years back, very early on, when I was, like many noobs, inclined to want to use reader-macros to constrain CL into (language/feature X). By the time you learn to do it you know enough about lisp to not want it any more. 23:14:23 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 23:14:29 moocow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has joined #lisp 23:14:37 "You can't simeltaneously be smart enough to turn CL into X and remain thick enough to want to turn lisp into X" 23:15:10 Reader-macro insanity seems largely self-correcting. 23:16:12 wchogg_ [n=wchogg@h216-165-144-151.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:05 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@216.165.144.151] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:17:52 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 23:18:09 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 23:18:22 ah, heh. st-json does it right. 23:18:29 (format stream "~,,,,,,'eE" nr) (-: 23:18:55 -!- booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 23:20:12 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 23:20:28 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 23:24:40 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:30:03 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Client Quit] 23:30:29 in the CLIM Spec it says "input is processed on a per-port basis...", I am not sure I like that, because in windows each thread can have it's own message queue for the thread's windows 23:30:49 but on the other hand there is a sheet-event-queue 23:31:30 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C8E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:32:22 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-30-236.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:34:00 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 23:35:34 CLIM Spec also says "The exact representation of an event queue is explicitly unspecified." 23:35:49 That's a good thing 23:39:35 on ACL for windows, processes have mp:process-message-interrupt-function 23:40:22 thom_ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:40 if you just leave this to default, then when you are doing an mp:wait-for-input-available or mp:process-wait then it can dispatch the messages for you directly to the window procedure 23:40:54 -!- manic12_ [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:41:22 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:55 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:42:08 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 23:42:25 since I'm putting an index to the sheet on the user data of the window, I can just use generic functions to handle everything 23:43:23 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:43:46 when the window handle comes in to the window procedure from the process-interrupt, I fetch the sheet index, get the lisp value (the sheet) and call the generic function for handling the event 23:45:19 probably don't need to implement a "sheet event queue" or "process next event" at all 23:48:28 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:49:54 the spec should say "implement handle-event (sheet event &rest args)" for each sheet type and event type and forget about the input protocol 23:53:42 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C8E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:00 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 23:55:08 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 23:56:32 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:35 -!- jao [n=jao@obfw.oblong.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:59:20 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C8E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:59:51 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:59 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]