00:00:08 -!- dkcl` [n=user@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:01:58 bittin^ [i=bittin@anapnea.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:04 -!- bittin^ [i=bittin@anapnea.net] has left #lisp 00:02:23 how does one manage a lisp library? (I have partially revived cl-facebook) 00:03:55 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-200.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:04:37 drakej [n=Fred@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:22 jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has joined #lisp 00:07:19 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:55 -!- dkcl [n=user@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:11:26 jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:59 *meingbg* just implemented lisp. In LabView. 00:12:01 so, what are we all on about tonight? 00:15:00 So that's what I've been doing the last few hours. 00:16:02 -!- ignotus [n=ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 00:17:06 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177075118.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:14 has anybody running hunchentoot built with clbuild run into problems lately? 00:21:38 mcspiff: Which lisp? 00:21:51 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:23:23 nis_ [n=nicolas@91-164-134-182.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:49 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:51 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-1d198009be835d24] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:29:27 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:31:59 -!- wentbackward|zzz [n=wentback@n219077065141.netvigator.com] has quit [""no memory""] 00:34:18 sbcl 00:34:46 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:34:50 none here 00:35:19 let me see what happens under ccl... 00:35:38 i am probably not on most recent, however 00:36:17 hmmm im not even sure what lib pulled an update, might just be something hunchentoot depends on... 00:39:04 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177075118.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:41:09 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177075118.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:02 mogunus [n=chatzill@wsip-70-184-14-138.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:10 Hi, what's the main purpose of Lisp ? 00:46:23 to write programs 00:46:29 And where's the best place to start using it ? 00:46:38 yes, but 00:46:49 at home, at work, and at school are all good places 00:46:50 php is oriented web, 00:47:23 perl is oriented web and text parsing, etc 00:48:16 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:48:51 I guess Lisp is convenient for some kind of programing 00:50:05 how about web. everything's good for that 00:50:17 :-) 00:50:18 i know a good place for lisp...data manipulation. 00:50:23 like all other languages ;) 00:51:26 -!- jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:52:19 For what kind of software you think Lisp is the best language ? 00:52:25 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/introduction-why-lisp.html 00:53:04 Seems like exactly what I'm looking for. 00:53:08 Thanks ! 00:55:47 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:15 What's really great about lisp is that it's fun. 00:58:05 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:58:44 :-) 00:59:37 I'll give it a try (I know a lot people having some misterious affinity with Lisp) 01:00:33 Any idea of what kind of tool I could write to learn Lisp ? 01:01:06 nis_: what tool do you need? ;-) 01:01:21 (I'm in lack of inspiration) 01:01:33 Well, 01:01:51 I'm working on an interface with facebook to teach myself some 01:01:54 I'd like a new rss reader 01:02:33 But I think python would be good (for the rss soft) 01:03:01 fisxoj: I know nothing about facebook ! 01:03:43 (but the name and a lot of friend using it) 01:03:51 -!- drakej [n=Fred@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:03:57 nis_: it's a social networking site.. I'm not a huge fan, but, most people I know use it, so, if I use it through lisp, I don't need to look at their ads and annoying website 01:03:57 If you do plan on making a net tool, may i be the first to reconmend edi weitz's excellent libraries. 01:05:16 nis_: http://www.weitz.de/drakma/ might be useful for an rss reader for example 01:05:33 mcspiff: saved into my new lisp-advices file. 01:05:43 frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.126.246] has joined #lisp 01:06:14 site bookmared as well 01:06:30 bookmarked* 01:06:49 fisxoj: do you have a public repo of your work ? 01:07:08 no, I was just looking at common-lisp.net for hosting 01:07:16 does anyone have recommendations? 01:07:32 What SCM do you use ? 01:07:38 scm? 01:07:49 best bet is to start small 01:07:52 fisxoj: common-lisp.net is a good bet 01:07:59 drewc: thanks 01:08:14 you do too much you'll end up learning 10 libraries at once and it'll get overwhelming if you are also new to the language 01:08:45 I agree. 01:08:48 msingh [n=user@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:09:57 Hum, I have in mind to write a tool to generate random content into databases (to help admin and developers) 01:11:12 Could be useful to test a soft with some records. 01:11:21 (for example) 01:11:44 Do you think Lisp would be good to that purpose ? 01:12:41 Today, I think perl would be the best choice because of the PCRE support. 01:13:29 http://www.weitz.de/cl-ppcre/ ;-) 01:14:44 Thx. Going that way, what Lisp doesn't have ? 01:15:54 nis_: I just play around, nothing too serious or released, but I haven't run into any huge holes 01:16:23 Thx. 01:17:33 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:17:50 nis_: most of my stuff is website related, so in my image I usually have a webserver, a templating package, a lisp-to-javascript compilier and my own code. Works well for me. 01:18:13 How does one go about developing in lisp for the desktop, i've been wondering... It seems rather difficult to do 01:19:10 fisxoj: what os? 01:19:31 mcspiff: the only one worth its salt :P linux 01:19:55 http://common-lisp.net/project/commonqt/ seems interesting, fisxoj .. i haven't tried it yet 01:20:07 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:10 lnostdal: but I like gtk! 01:20:13 oh no! 01:20:25 big deal; Qt software runs just fine on Gnome :) 01:20:30 fisxoj: ah. I've only played with ccl's cocoa bridge on mac 01:20:50 fisxoj: (in late) : SCM = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_configuration_management 01:22:02 fisxoj: there is bindings... not sure how up to date they are. also check out cffi 01:22:35 fisxoj: http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/ 01:22:36 A friend asked me today if a LabView block diagram can represent any written programming language... So now a few hours later, I have a lisp up and running, implemented in LabView. Next feature, anyone? 01:23:34 I wonder what a lisp OS would be like 01:23:58 A very slow one, i guess. 01:24:20 fisxoj, qt uses the gtk theme engine on gnome now 01:24:24 nonsense. There have been lisp machines and they were among the fastest systems of their day 01:24:28 fisxoj: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machine 01:24:31 Lisp is an interpreted language, is it ? 01:24:38 nis_: no! 01:24:40 nis_: interpretation is not a feature of a language 01:24:41 -!- frank_s [n=FrankS@41.145.126.246] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:44 Arghhhh! 01:24:54 nis_: well, unless you only have one implementation :) 01:24:57 yea, lisp machines inspired me to build a brainfuck interpreter for an electronics class 01:25:08 fisxoj: that's delightfully twisted 01:25:10 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:24 it was horrible... 01:25:30 dlowe1: how do we say in good english ? 01:25:44 nis_: "isn't it" 01:26:13 nis_: but no, most serious lisp implementations are compiled 01:26:18 Ooh, yeah. I see my fault now. :-) 01:26:54 -!- cipher [n=cipher@pool-173-48-136-239.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:27:11 nis_: but not...batch compilied? Its a very iterative process. add a function here, redefine a class there. 01:27:25 mcspiff: it can be 01:27:49 -!- mogunus [n=chatzill@wsip-70-184-14-138.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:27:59 dlowe1: true. i assume my way is the only way sometimes 01:28:00 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy 01:29:20 well, eventually don't you make things into a package and compile that? 01:29:43 speaking of which... I don't know how to make .asd files... and I can't find how to through google... 01:30:04 fisxoj: in production systems, the method is usually just to dump a lisp image and then start from that 01:30:21 the images tend to be fairly large, but that's less and less of a problem 01:30:22 http://constantly.at/lisp/asdf/ fisxoj .. but looking at what others do (pick a simple library) helps 01:30:45 fisxoj: it's fairly straightforward. 01:30:46 fisxoj: see http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 01:30:50 minion: tell fisxoj about asdf 01:30:51 fisxoj: have a look at asdf: asdf is Another System Definition Facility. http://www.cliki.net/asdf 01:30:56 fisxoj: you dont really need to worry about asdf too early on 01:31:32 mcspiff: well, I'm already requiring packages like trivial-https (need to update to drachma) and cl-ppcre, et al. so... 01:31:36 I looked at the lisp wikipedia page: I will surely be disappointed by the way Lisp has to be written. 01:31:50 and since I'm trying to make this facebook package, I'll want to make that an asd, I'd expect 01:31:51 nis_: how does it have to be written? 01:31:56 fisxoj: ah fair enough then 01:32:23 I haven't been this excited about programming since I learned qbasic, I think 01:32:26 lisp is pretty cool 01:33:06 dlowe1: I don't know how to explain in good english but it look's very far from python or perl. 01:33:17 (for example) 01:33:22 Or even C 01:33:40 nis_: lisp is very unique 01:33:44 The syntax to declare a function seems weird 01:33:48 nis_: that's correct. The programs look different. Just like French looks different from English 01:33:51 I think you might mean that it's not imperative, like those 01:34:03 which was my biggest problem 01:34:08 fisxoj: common lisp can be imperative 01:34:10 Yes 01:34:10 fisxoj: Brainfuck is also very unique :) 01:34:27 dlowe1: yes... that's a word for it... 01:34:40 fisxoj: (defun my-fun () (statement1)(statement2)(statement3)) 01:34:54 mcspiff: yea... but, what's the fun in that? 01:34:59 If it's not imperative, it's ... ? 01:35:05 nis_: functional 01:35:11 Okay. 01:35:22 or so I learned 01:35:27 I think I should start be learning that first. 01:35:31 fisxoj: heh well, thats the fun of lisp. It's whatever you need at the moment 01:36:37 We probably don't start learning Lisp as we start learning a (classical) imperative language, do we ? 01:36:39 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:37:08 dlowe1: (hope I'm good now for the "do we" part now) 01:37:11 There's a false dichotomy there. There's also structured, object-oriented, message-passing. 01:37:40 Hmm. 01:37:54 nis_: yes, though a (rude) American would probably just put a period where you say ", do we?" 01:38:01 I'm not so great on the theory... my computer science knowledge is secondhand at best, I've just been programming a while 01:38:17 structured is not just imperative ? 01:38:24 nis_: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ best way to start IMHO 01:38:38 nis_: imperative is not always structured 01:38:45 *dlowe1* agrees with mcspiff. 01:38:46 what does structured mean anyway 01:38:56 S11001001: control constructs other than goto 01:39:08 it was rhetorical, dlowe1 :) 01:39:19 S11001001: others might not know :) 01:39:38 mcspiff: thx for the link 01:40:19 Don't really know what structured means exactly. 01:40:43 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:46 A structure is a data structure for me. 01:40:53 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 01:41:39 btw, as all language has to do with data... 01:41:43 common lisp is symbolic :-) 01:42:09 nis_: any c-like language would be structured. 01:42:25 So, 01:42:34 what language is not structured ? 01:42:50 nis_: these are styles, not aspects of languages 01:43:03 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:43:18 Ok. 01:43:21 cipher [n=cipher@pool-173-48-136-239.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:07 nis_: assembler and Basic can be used in an unstructured way. 01:45:18 meingbg: so can common lisp :) 01:45:20 dlowe1: they are styles, not aspects of lisp, they are aspects of some languages 01:45:53 'you can write fortran in any language' i think is the quote 01:46:02 dlowe1: Yes of course. We have "go", so we can make spaghetti code out of all of it. 01:46:07 the happy collary is that you can write lisp in any language 01:46:53 From a "logic" point of view (say 'abstract level' may be) we could have : structured < imperative < oo < functional 01:46:55 ? 01:46:58 dlowe1: Want to elaborate on that? How can you write lisp in VB.Net, for example? By implementing it? 01:47:15 Why don't you just go write some Lisp? Why worry about whether it is good for this or that, or whether it can be used for this programming paradigm or that? Go get the gigamonkey book and wrestle with it for a while, and you'll have all the answers you need. 01:47:15 nis_: no. I think it would be better for you to just stop thinking and start writing code. 01:47:21 "Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp" 01:47:22 meingbg: yes, by implementing it 01:47:26 jfm3: gmta 01:47:36 dlowe1: ok. 01:48:07 dlowe1: ok, in that case yes. I implemented it in LabView tonight, just to prove to a classmate that LabView is turing-complete. 01:48:11 Thank you all (could be back soon any way ,-)) 01:48:25 nis_: here to help 01:48:25 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@99.136.101.166] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:48:36 nis_: hammer < wrench < crowbar < hacksaw? 01:49:07 its all abstract :-) 01:49:13 JAS415: that statement holds absolutely true if you're trying to get past a padlock 01:49:23 JAS415: though I'm sure it was unintentional :) 01:49:48 sort of makes it more true 01:49:53 what if i'm pounding nails? 01:49:55 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-73-65.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:51:27 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 01:52:14 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:14 -!- timchen119 is now known as nasloc__ 01:59:54 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:47 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-68-239-77-4.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:01:22 -!- dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:02:16 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:03:29 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:04:24 chpln [n=chpln@ppp121-45-157-74.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:40 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-103-226.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:06:45 aggieben [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 02:07:02 anyone ever used cl-xmpp? 02:10:54 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-125-22-221.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:05 aggieben: any particular issues? 02:13:09 Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.57.79] has joined #lisp 02:13:21 -!- Beket [n=rty@ppp206-239.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:14:05 -!- rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-052a733d7fcee144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:16:52 fusss: yep...in the repl I can't seem to get it to work with jabber.org 02:17:55 got a work issue at the moment....I'll be back with more detail 02:18:35 alright 02:19:56 jao` [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:22:19 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:22:59 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Dead socket] 02:23:13 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 02:23:19 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:59 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:25 -!- jao [n=jao@obfw.oblong.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:27:35 fusss: ok....so, in the repl, I load :cl-xmpp and try to walk through the example, but I never could get a message through. 02:28:13 mogunus_ [n=chatzill@wsip-70-184-14-138.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:59 xmpp:connect seems to work on jabber.org 02:29:06 *aggieben* is walking through it now 02:29:34 see what, if anything, is going down the wire 02:29:46 -!- mogunus_ [n=chatzill@wsip-70-184-14-138.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:31:19 fusss: Yeah, I've put wireshark on it and compared to Digsby, and it seems strange - like when Digsby connects, it sends the header and ... request all at once, and cl-xmpp sends it separately 02:31:52 time to hack it :-) 02:32:12 s-xml-rpc did that to me and i think i rewrote it over a day 02:32:19 I know...that's what I'm afraid of. I just want it to work :-) 02:32:47 those xml based stuff are easy to debug and fix, imo 02:35:37 most of the stuff should be in one file, cl-xmpp.lisp 02:36:00 *fusss* never had a jabber account 02:37:46 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:11 brb 02:42:36 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-94-2.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:42 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 02:45:47 Beket [n=rty@ppp206-239.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 02:46:21 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:51:58 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:49 -!- nis_ [n=nicolas@91-164-134-182.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:54:59 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609]"] 02:55:45 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:33 I recall that SBCL compiles pretty much all code it receives, even in the REPL, if this is the case, does that compiling lisp files into fasl files only provides the same purpose as python's pyc files, simple to speed up loading time the 2nd time around. Or is it (load (compile-file "blah.lisp")) makes runtime faster in all cases? 02:57:28 DeusExPikachu: python (sbcl) compile-file is much more involved than python (guido) compile 02:58:07 right, but I'm concerning practical benefits in SBCL 02:58:13 for example: macro expansion, inlining, eval-when (:compile-toplevel) 02:58:26 you only compile once, to create the fasls. 02:58:56 "inlining" here being shorthand for "optimization based on knowledge of other code outside and inside the currently-compiling file" 03:00:03 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:21 e.g. if (declaim (ftype (function (fixnum) (values fixnum &optional)) blahblah)) beforehand, the compiler may assume (depending on optimize setting I guess) that `blahblah' is defined as a function, accepts exactly one argument, which must be a fixnum, and returns exactly one value (if it returns at all), a fixnum 03:00:41 hmm 03:01:36 -!- Beket [n=rty@ppp206-239.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:01:42 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 03:02:59 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:15 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:03:24 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 03:03:49 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 03:04:06 -!- benny` is now known as benny 03:04:20 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:04:22 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:04:31 btw S11001001, for the first response, I assume you meant "lisp (SBCL)" instead of "python (SBCL)"? 03:05:00 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-158-6.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:45 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:01 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:06:27 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:07:32 no, it was something to humor the SBCLese here 03:07:43 (the compiler in SBCL was historically called "python") 03:08:59 -!- e271 [i=[X9exUNd@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:09:42 ?? not just april fools joke? 03:09:57 seriously 03:10:19 if you want to be fair, CMUCL had the name first, so... 03:10:29 years before, in fact 03:11:36 it's a good name still because every new sbcler has the fun experience of discovering that etymology 03:12:50 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 03:13:57 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@80.31.143.9] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:14:32 kidd2 [n=kidd@80.31.143.9] has joined #lisp 03:17:06 so according to http://lists.canonical.org/pipermail/kragen-tol/2007-March/000852.html, it mentions that SBCL "immediately compiles everything to native code, even in the interactive interpreter", is it possible to write code with compiler hints etc, that runs the same speed as code that is compiled with compile-file? 03:19:04 yes but it'd be a big waste of time 03:19:28 compile-file and interactive compilation work essentially exactly the same 03:19:34 *_3b* wouldn't expect compile-file to matter aside from block compilation 03:19:36 to capture the full benefit you'd need to simulate the "mutual in-file inlining" 03:20:03 <_3b> does sbcl actually do much of that? 03:20:03 i.e. compile-file may assume that a given DEFUN is *the* definition of that function for the duration of the file compilation 03:20:07 I have no idea 03:20:17 actually I do have a little idea 03:20:22 I think it uses it more than most 03:20:35 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177075118.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:21:47 on a related note, it's such a good idea for the spec to include that, since it removes all barriers to splitting up functions that have grown too large into pieces 03:22:13 declaim inline also does that 03:22:17 so in general, compile-file is more optimized? 03:22:24 no, in general they'll be exactly the same 03:22:30 yes, but then you have to declaim notinline afterwards to truly simulate it 03:22:56 in some circumstances you *might* be able to get compile-file to make faster code. 03:22:58 anyway, you can't say "well function overhead, type inference doesn't work as well", because the response is always "hello mutual in-file inlining" 03:23:44 mooto [n=chatzill@202.114.113.2] has joined #lisp 03:24:54 *_3b* thought that was something that sbcl didn't do as much as cmucl 03:26:05 in this side note, I'm speaking purely theoretically 03:26:21 while I am speaking of the same thing but in the specific case of sbcl in the main thread 03:27:09 <_3b> not theoretically in cmucl case, http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/~resnik/ling645_sp2002/cmu_manual/node148.html 03:27:54 is there any good literature on this topic? (load) vs (load(compile-file)), interactive compilation, and sbcl? 03:28:45 _3b: the mere practicality of what I am saying in some cases does not detract from its theoretical basis :) 03:28:46 <_3b> DeusExPikachu: i suspect most of us just ignore the issue and compile it howeever slime wants to compile it :) 03:29:02 <_3b> S11001001: true 03:29:56 so just (load(compile-file)) and forget? 03:30:10 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:30:17 just C-c C-k and forget 03:30:21 <_3b> C-c C-c and forget 03:30:31 <_3b> (or C-c C-k) 03:31:01 if you are using slime... 03:31:03 <_3b> or load it with asdf 03:31:38 ,lo-sy 03:33:02 -!- jao` is now known as jao 03:33:34 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:34:30 slime, but I was thinking of writing something that loads .lisp files in proper order as an exercise where the dependency information is in each file instead of an asd file (ie. python's import statement). In my idea, it would have to call either (load) or (load(compile-file)) subsequently to fulfil all the dependencies. 03:34:33 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:35:23 but you don't have to load a file with a function you call before compiling a file with a call to the function 03:35:28 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 03:35:41 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:35:53 from my experience, the python way of doing things (no mutual references allowed) is wildly inconvenient after using ASDF 03:36:00 <_3b> compiling it every time sounds inefficient too 03:36:13 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:36:14 -!- kenjin_ [n=kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:36:17 <_3b> not sure what the best strategy for something like that would be 03:37:18 I just don't like the centralized asd file, even though its easy 03:37:38 *_3b* doesn't like files in general :p 03:37:41 it's like "I'm not calling bleeding apple.goon yet, only referencing it, why do you care that apple is still loading" 03:38:31 i was thinking earlier that you could probably bootstrap something onto asdf:operate asdf:load-op for delivery of compiled files 03:38:57 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:38:58 you don't have to do anything but actually include fasls for that to work, JAS415 03:39:08 with newer timestamps than the sources 03:39:08 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:43 i was thinking for delivery of dependencies 03:40:30 yeah, the timestamps fixes the compiling every time problem so I guess compiling is just not an issue 03:41:55 _3b, what do you mean you don't like files? As in you just have a monolithic file with everythingn in it? or something like a database of code? 03:42:36 <_3b> i mean i shouldn't have to care about which of those it picks... i just want functions and variables 03:43:08 <_3b> (obviously something with a fallback that doesn't require specialized tools is preferable to an opaque binary blob, but that isn't the primary concern) 03:45:40 Beket [n=rty@ppp206-239.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 03:46:24 <_3b> also would be nice to have code in some canonical form in whatever storage setup it uses, so i could for example toggle package prefixes on and off, or have nicknames for bindings, or whatever 03:46:26 chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:15 mtd_ [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 03:47:34 -!- amazingdander [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:48:01 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-115-47.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:48:23 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:49:44 holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:48 . 03:49:51 hi lisp 03:50:14 btw, xcvb, anyone heard/use it? 03:50:29 tweek___ [n=tweek@host-5-159-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:41 supposed to solve the centralized asd file, and more, but it needs a lot of work 03:51:01 <_3b> the developer is here often, hadn't heard of it getting to a generally useful point though 03:51:15 I've got an assignment to implement a Reversi player using alpha-beta minimax search in Lisp 03:51:29 and I'm looking for an edge, something that'll make it work well 03:51:39 dkcl [n=user@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 03:52:17 think it'd be possible to do something like: complete the game tree for one-dimensional reversi, for the edges, evaluating each end position and storing it all in some sort of a datafile or something 03:52:32 then importing it as ... something ... in lisp, 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[Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:18:53 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:20:04 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:20:06 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 04:27:43 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:29:04 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:29:59 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 04:33:06 clhs make-array 04:33:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm 04:33:39 -!- mooto [n=chatzill@202.114.113.2] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609]"] 04:37:07 Good morning. 04:37:32 Hey beach. 04:38:47 ls 04:38:55 oops? 04:38:57 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:00 Wrong window, yep 04:39:48 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0C68D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:39:49 Today has not been a good day from me and computers. The result is that I'm nursing a backup of my home drive and preparing to install everything from scratch tomorrow. 04:40:09 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C68D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:15 tmh: sounds pretty bad. 04:40:44 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:20 It is. If the computer were to reboot for any reason, I'd be screwed. I'm won't leave the backup for fear that the screen saver will come on and I won't be able to get back in. I'm not sure what's working and what's not. 04:41:38 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:42:25 I accidentally shredded an unknown number of the initial blocks of the partition that my OS and home drive are on. 04:42:37 My computer is literally a zombie. 04:43:03 It was poisoned by a witchdoctor and buried in a shallow grave? 04:43:32 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 04:43:37 Or the computational equivalent. It is the walking dead. 04:44:34 I was aiming for /dev/sdg , but I typed /dev/sdb . That last letter is very important. I Ctrl-C'd but not quickly enough. 04:45:12 I can't access the root directory, but I can access my home directory and about anything under / , just not ls / 04:50:23 -!- tweek___ [n=tweek@host-5-159-107-208.midco.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 04:52:17 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:54:30 wentbackward [n=wentback@n219077065141.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 04:56:37 adityo [n=adityo@59.183.20.96] has joined #lisp 05:03:40 Jacob_ [n=yong@61.181.247.170] has joined #lisp 05:04:08 -!- Jacob_ is now known as Guest33413 05:14:01 -!- myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-81-133.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:15:43 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 05:16:21 wchogg_ [n=wchogg@h216-165-144-151.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:20 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:25:36 myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-81-133.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 05:27:11 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:27:16 mooto [n=chatzill@202.114.113.2] has joined #lisp 05:28:57 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-145-79.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:29:30 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.28] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:30:26 ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:31:23 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:31:36 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:31:49 -!- bdowning_ [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:32:42 -!- ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:32:48 -!- Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.57.79] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:32:53 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:07 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 05:34:07 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 05:35:28 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 05:36:16 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:46:46 bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:09 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 05:53:21 -!- mooto [n=chatzill@202.114.113.2] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609]"] 05:54:03 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 05:54:41 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:57:07 -!- dkcl [n=user@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:59:06 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 06:00:51 -!- adityo [n=adityo@59.183.20.96] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 06:03:00 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:05 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 06:05:21 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:05:57 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 06:05:59 <_3b> any reason clbuild isn't in c-l.net darcweb? 06:06:59 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 06:07:06 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-144-19.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 06:08:38 Hello 06:10:28 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:17 aw, I always miss the fun GUI discussions. 06:15:08 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:15:13 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 06:16:55 -!- _ilitirit_ [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:17:00 _ilitirit_ [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 06:17:11 -!- _ilitirit_ is now known as ilitirit 06:17:13 -!- ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 06:17:17 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 06:17:29 <_3b> clbuild should probably use the main cl-opengl repo, the -thomas branch hasn't been current in a long time (and if the erleuchtet fork has something useful, it should probably be merged) 06:17:43 _bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:40 -!- bdowning_ [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:19:18 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:19:21 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["playing l4d"] 06:20:54 hah, erleuchtet is a good one. 06:21:11 bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:15 <_3b> tcr: it mean something interesting? 06:22:59 I thought you used it as a pun on _8david's last name 06:23:20 literally, it means "enlighted" 06:23:39 <_3b> ah, nope... it is name of domain from which clbuild tries to download cl-opengl 06:23:41 kenyao [n=kenyao@58.62.26.31] has joined #lisp 06:23:45 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:32 argh, didn't realize what accronym relational objects for lisp meant for until it was too late 06:24:39 heh, I thought you used it intentionally, as it's in past participle form to mean "designated by _8david" 06:25:02 *_3b* doesn't remember nearly enough german to be that clever :) 06:25:21 I thought it may be in the english vocabulary like "verboten" 06:26:09 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:03 good morning 06:28:18 <_3b> jao: gotten cl-opengl working yet? 06:28:36 adityo [n=adityo@59.183.20.96] has joined #lisp 06:29:47 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:30:03 <_3b> jao: if not, change the cl-opengl line in clbuild/wnpp-projects to 06:30:05 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 06:30:12 <_3b> cl-opengl get_darcs http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cl-opengl/darcs/cl-opengl/ 06:30:17 <_3b> and see if that works better 06:31:13 <_3b> possibly without the trailing / not sure if that matters to clbuild or darcs 06:33:10 theorie [n=chatzill@pool-71-178-238-188.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:15 where does one download lisp? 06:33:30 <_3b> depends on which lisp you want 06:33:34 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.216.203] has joined #lisp 06:33:48 cl 06:34:03 <_3b> www.sbcl.org/ has a popular CL 06:34:17 theorie: cl is a standard, not an implementation. what platform do you have? 06:34:20 fusss: still up? 06:34:29 right now, on windows 06:34:36 <_3b> clisp.cons.org/ and www.clozure.com/clozurecl.html are also popular 06:35:05 theorie: on windows, i'd recommend clisp or the lispworks trial version, if you don't mind commercial. 06:35:28 clisp it is 06:35:32 <_3b> if you have a budget, maybe www.lispworks.com/ www.franz.com/ or www.cormanlisp.com/ might be useful 06:35:47 *_3b* uses sbcl on windows 06:36:31 <_3b> you could also try ecl or abcl 06:37:01 -!- _bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:37:20 CCL works well on Windows as well. (With threading and all other OS specific toys.) 06:37:39 kenyao_ [n=kenyao@58.62.26.31] has joined #lisp 06:37:49 -!- kenyao_ [n=kenyao@58.62.26.31] has quit [Client Quit] 06:38:54 i've found ccl on 32 bit windows too annoying for the moment. on 64 bit windows, it works fine. to a beginner, i'd recommend clisp anyways as that worked on windows for several years and is good to get going quickly. 06:39:08 <_3b> what sort of annoyances? 06:39:31 i don't think it is a good way to learn lisp to try out as many different implementations as one can find. there is not much to learn doing that. 06:39:50 _3b: did not run the hunchentoot test suite, segfaulted. 06:40:31 _3b: i'm not saying that all these are unsolvable problems, but i did not have the time to look at them. i'm not sure that a beginner would gain much from staring at segmentation violation errors either. 06:41:13 <_3b> H4ns: makes sense, was just curious since i've been meaning to try it for a while but haven't gotten aroun dto it yet 06:42:11 _3b: nope 06:42:13 _3b: just plan for some time to get around the rough edges. i've gave it a shot yesterday and it did not look _that_ bad, but as my target platform for the project is macos, i decided not to waste my time with windows right now. 06:42:24 _3b: thanks, i'll try that! 06:42:26 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:42:27 sbcl people: is there a way to prevent the console from popping up in windows when running a standalone image? 06:42:55 reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 06:42:58 sykopomp: you can create a shortcut to the executable and make it start minimized in the advanced properties 06:43:15 H4ns: that'll still pop up the console, though? 06:43:33 sykopomp: it will put the console into the taskbar, yes. 06:43:44 sykopomp: it will not "pop up", though. 06:43:57 how about not having a console open at all? :) 06:44:19 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 06:44:21 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:46:31 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:06 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 06:49:49 -!- kenyao [n=kenyao@58.62.26.31] has quit [Client Quit] 06:50:59 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.216.203] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:55:05 http://redsnake.me/ 06:55:46 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:56:29 heh 06:56:45 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 06:57:03 Ppjet6 [n=ppjet@ivr94-11-88-187-39-7.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:08 I like clisp as an introduction -- the readline support makes it kind to beginners. 06:57:22 Lou_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 06:57:45 Zhivago: it's good when they're too stubborn to use slime, or even download ABLE 06:58:03 although it's a fantastic terminal-based calculator 06:58:27 dkcl [n=user@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 06:58:30 used it today to calculate how to split the power bill! It worked great. 06:58:47 sykopomp: it is also good if you are totally green behind the ears and want to try out stuff right now. no stubbornness needed. 06:59:28 H4ns: yeah, although I question the effectiveness of the clisp terminal experience as far as impressing anyone goes. 06:59:30 :P 07:00:01 sykopomp: ah, did not recognize that it was about impressing people. 07:00:19 its all about impressing 07:00:27 definitely 07:00:55 "achso" 07:01:24 I mean, lisp has to deliver on its promise of magically revolutionizing the way everyone thinks about programming. If they don't reach satori the moment they input an s-exp, it's a lost cause. 07:02:04 heh 07:02:51 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.161.55] has joined #lisp 07:04:06 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-144-19.vologda.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 07:05:05 haha, sykopomp 07:06:17 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4599.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:08:56 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 07:09:02 -!- reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:09:08 -!- dkcl [n=user@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:11:39 Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has joined #lisp 07:14:57 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 07:18:53 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:18:54 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:19:51 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:20:15 -!- jao [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:21:45 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:24:36 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-94-2.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:26:25 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 07:26:48 ASau [n=user@host224-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:27:45 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6EE4D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:15 Dazhbog [i=sampo@geek.fi] has joined #lisp 07:31:18 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-10124.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 07:33:13 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:33:32 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:36:06 -!- Dazhbog_ [n=sampo@geek.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:39:15 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 07:41:25 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:44:44 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:46:26 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:46:56 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-3453e4a5b6cbbcce] has joined #lisp 07:48:40 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-3453e4a5b6cbbcce] has left #lisp 07:49:13 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:50:01 anyone using ecl, cross-compiled? 07:50:11 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:50:16 i have this little embedded device that i would like to program in a language other than C 07:50:35 i did not have good luck getting chicken or bigloo running on it, mostly due to laziness 07:50:38 maybe ecl will be easier 07:51:34 the docs seem to indicate it will compile for ARM, so that is good 07:51:37 i will try it and see 07:51:51 certainly off topic, but i had good success with embedding javascript (spidermonkey) 07:53:25 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:54:04 borism_ [n=boris@195.50.200.243] has joined #lisp 07:54:08 -!- borism [n=boris@195.50.199.161] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:54:27 ah, interesting 07:56:09 Tordek [n=tordek@host83.190-137-249.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 07:56:11 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 07:57:24 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-2-175.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:58:23 -!- Qsource [n=dima@208.75.91.170] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:06:11 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.248.189] has joined #lisp 08:09:04 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host58.190-138-158.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:10:42 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host143.190-138-165.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 08:13:22 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 08:15:35 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-10124.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:17:44 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:17:48 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:17:50 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 08:18:43 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.132.213] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:19:34 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 08:20:13 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:20:40 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:20:45 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17ED0C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:34 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 08:25:59 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host83.190-137-249.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:26:51 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17ED0C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:29:22 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-140.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:31:52 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:32:41 frank_s__ [n=FrankS@41.145.126.246] has joined #lisp 08:32:45 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17ED0C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:43 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:34:16 adityo_ [n=adityo@59.183.31.98] has joined #lisp 08:38:40 -!- Guest33413 [n=yong@61.181.247.170] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:38:49 Ragnaroek [i=8f5df9f5@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4c7fe222ac16aee5] has joined #lisp 08:39:48 adityo__ [n=adityo@59.183.31.98] has joined #lisp 08:43:20 manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 08:44:00 Qsource [n=dima@208.75.91.170] has joined #lisp 08:47:21 -!- frank_s_ [n=FrankS@41.145.126.246] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:47:39 -!- adityo [n=adityo@59.183.20.96] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:51:53 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.161.55] has quit [" I know why I'm single there's no 0xGF"] 08:53:37 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:54:09 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:36 -!- adityo_ [n=adityo@59.183.31.98] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:58:26 blandest [n=blandest@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 08:59:48 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 09:00:00 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:00:40 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:01:31 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.161.55] has joined #lisp 09:04:50 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:05:02 Running tests on sbcl 1.0.25 fails - does anyone care? I'm running again to get the log. 09:05:42 wentbackward: maybe, what's failing? 09:06:39 mega1, Will get the exact msg in a min. 09:07:26 attila_lendvai: poke? 09:07:37 attila_lendvai: does perec support deleting? :) 09:08:06 jsnell: in unwind-to-frame-and-call (inst sub esp-tn unwind-block-size) subtracts 3 bytes instead of 3 words as intended 09:08:47 attila_lendvai: the only thing I found is a TODO note that says "Implement something that deletes while respecting integrity", that doesn't sound terribly promising 09:10:31 mathrick: it does, but it does not hold your hand while swinging with the sword in the dark... :) 09:10:45 mathrick: see purge-instance and friends 09:11:03 yep, that's what I found 09:11:08 wentbackward pasted "1.0.25 tests on ubuntu" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77906 09:11:08 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 09:11:14 G'day! 09:11:19 mathrick: but in most business applications deleting is a flag, not a db row removal 09:11:23 but it's a bit silly that it first creates all the integrity checks, then disregards them 09:11:39 attila_lendvai: yes, I know, but it has its own problems, namely integrity checks as well 09:11:50 mathrick: it does not disregard them, it's just not implemented because we don't use db row deletes 09:11:53 mega1, pasted the final results http://paste.lisp.org/display/77906 09:12:30 attila_lendvai: so what exactly does purge-instance do with objects that have integrity bounds? 09:13:25 mathrick: M-. i don't know either, i guess it just issues the delete from sql with the id 09:13:59 mathrick: yep, blindly removes all rows associated with the instance, and updates the transaction cache 09:14:13 wentbackward: what's the output of 'sh foreign.test.sh'? 09:14:22 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:15:03 attila_lendvai: I see. How do you handle all the constraints with deleted flag approach? 09:16:00 mathrick: i don't understand the question. what we do is add a flag on stuff, or a timeout date for contracts for example, and the business logic deals with it (it has to anyway) 09:16:13 On the sql delete issue - shouldn't the relational integrity checks be in the database itself, not in each piece of code which uses it? 09:16:33 if you just set deleted to t, it will happily break all the logical constraints such as foreign keys, because the DB doesn't know "deleted = true" means the object doesn't exist 09:17:19 mega1, If I run as you posted from the command prompt, I get ./subr.sh: 1./subr.sh: 19: OSTYPE: parameter not set9: OSTYPE: parameter not set 09:17:37 oops, my dodgy mouse pasted twice 09:17:54 attila_lendvai: how well does perec work with the sqlite backend? 09:18:32 what? i don't give a damn on the sql constraints. for us the sql db is just a persistent store that brings the ACID properties, of which we only care about atomicity, isolation and durability. 09:18:33 wentbackward: then run it as 'env OSTYPE=linux-gnu sh foreign.test.sh' 09:19:27 haha, you should see the database I had in my last job 09:20:00 had so many rules and triggers that a simple update of one row could cause a full sequential scan of a completely different table you weren't expecting 09:20:29 megal, do you want the whole thing? It seems to finish ok 09:20:49 attila_lendvai: so you do all the consistency by hand? Or is there any logic in perec to help you with doing that? 09:21:30 lichtblau: so-so. sqlite has no ways to query the metadata, so the automatic schema updates are screwed. you need to drop the whole db when persistent classes change. also some important types are not supported by sqlite... but i've seen many tests running when levy was playing with it. 09:22:49 wentbackward: if it finishes ok then it's not interesting. 09:23:20 mathrick: i'm not a consistency freak. i sleep well without consistency checks... although i do pay attention to use the persistent objects through a single interface taking care of the business logic. if i suspect that something somewhere is broken, then i write a defun and run it. and then optionally another one to fix stuff. 09:23:22 okay, that's good enough. I'm not looking for a perfect solution, just something good enough that I can get started hacking it. 09:25:02 lichtblau: be warned that perec is a bitch to set up, I can throw at you a document describing all the deps and first steps 09:27:27 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-2-175.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:27:55 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-2-175.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:28:09 lichtblau: try (asdf:operate 'asdf:test-op :cl-perec-test.sqlite) it should run the perec tests through the sqlite backend of cl-rdbms. although is strongly recommend using postgres if you are on a linux. setting it up is only an apt-get install postgresql, probably much less pain than sqlite... 09:28:41 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@134.184.43.85] has joined #lisp 09:29:39 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@apn-94-44-15-68.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:30:29 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@apn-94-44-15-68.vodafone.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 09:30:45 levy [n=ati@apn-94-44-15-68.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:31:16 I'm looking for a simple file thing, so PostgreSQL won't be an option. It's either SQLite, or a home-made SQL-free file format. 09:31:18 xan [n=xan@62.78.225.40] has joined #lisp 09:31:47 what's the --partial for that you always list in your checkout instructions? They seem to work with and without --partial, so what's the difference? 09:32:28 lichtblau: fyi, levy is the perec guy, he's here 09:33:03 lichtblau: darcs does not clone the entire repo, only from a checkpoint. but we should move to the darcs2 where it is the default (iirc) 09:33:16 lichtblau: http://sei.meidokon.net/files/cl-perec-install.txt 09:33:46 :foo means it's asdf-installable 09:34:04 attila_lendvai: oh, good to know 09:34:54 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:34:55 let me see, we have most of that in clbuild already. 09:36:23 -!- xan [n=xan@62.78.225.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:36:34 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:37:05 lichtblau: nice install report we could put that on the web site 09:37:13 what on earth is (DEF CLASS* (...) ...) 09:37:19 :) 09:37:20 -!- adityo__ [n=adityo@59.183.31.98] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 09:38:23 lichtblau: same like defclass* but with export and other definer options 09:38:40 mathrick: thanks for writing that up. would you mind if i copied that to the cl-dwim trac wiki? 09:39:01 lichtblau: defclass* is a macro which support extensible naming conventions for initargs, accessors, etc. 09:40:31 Access denied to webpage or website: 'http://sei.meidokon.net/files/cl-perec-install.txt'. Categories: Pornography. 09:40:37 *aerique* sighs 09:40:43 meh :) 09:40:51 Time to start up the ssh tunnel from work. 09:41:17 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has quit [] 09:41:17 aerique, sounds like typical webnonsense 09:41:31 yeah, it is 09:43:26 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:44:38 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B506.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:54 hyperbor1ean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 09:50:11 how does http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cl-dwim/darcs/metacopy/ 09:50:17 relate to the upstream metacopy? 09:51:00 emacs + xterm + enabling 256 colors = pretty sexy 09:51:28 ntoll [n=ntoll@87.236.135.147] has joined #lisp 09:53:48 mega1, Must be something in my environment as explicitly setting OSTYPE works. Either my default bash or compiling with 1.0.11, not sure but all ok anyhow. 09:54:08 lichtblau: it has an asdf-system-connection'ed contextl integration, with which you can "inherit" and "override" copy protocols 09:54:36 wentbackward: missing OSTYPE was the only reason for the failure? 09:54:41 yes 09:54:54 ah, ok. We'll fix that this year. 09:55:20 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:55:39 -!- hyperbor1ean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit ["leaving"] 09:56:37 hmm, the dependencies in cl-perec.asd look correct to me, yet ASDF tries configuration.lisp before package.lisp. 09:57:19 proview [n=proview@gw-ext.tagus.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 09:57:23 lisp sucks 09:57:30 It's something setup to catch cygwin/msys envs. 09:57:39 -!- proview [n=proview@gw-ext.tagus.ist.utl.pt] has quit [] 09:57:45 proview: life sucks, hang yourself :) 10:02:24 -!- bmaddala [n=bhaskar@c-71-224-160-209.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 10:04:58 -!- Ragnaroek [i=8f5df9f5@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4c7fe222ac16aee5] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 10:05:51 Ragnaroek [i=8f5df9f5@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-396923615a8e979e] has joined #lisp 10:06:01 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:06:47 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@ppp-70-253-65-66.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:06:52 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 10:08:59 -!- frank_s__ is now known as frank_s 10:09:30 alexbobp [n=alex@ppp-70-253-81-73.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:12:41 -!- egosh262 [n=Miranda@212.106.61.218] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:16:19 Eleanore [n=el@c213-100-35-238.swipnet.se] has joined #lisp 10:16:38 I hope it's not a sin in CL to do "foo?" as opposed to "foo-p" 10:16:54 poor taste is not per se sinful 10:17:14 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@134.184.43.85] has quit [] 10:18:22 dan_b: Hey, at least it's ... what's the word I'm looking for ... consistent! 10:21:07 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 10:21:08 Quadrescence: that would be foop in any case, or bar-quux-p. 10:21:33 a foo-pish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds 10:22:55 foop/foo-p may not be used as an adjective, verb, adverb, interjection, or any other part of speech henceforth. 10:25:37 I thought foop was the noise wizards made when they disappear, poof being the appearing noise. 10:26:18 wentbackward: it's the reverse: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/poof 10:29:27 mathrick: thanks for writing that up. would you mind if i copied that to the cl-dwim trac wiki? <-- not at all 10:30:58 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.144.190] has joined #lisp 10:33:12 Ah, I was almost right! 10:36:05 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-144-19.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:38:41 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 10:44:42 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 10:46:22 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:46:39 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:47:45 Could anyone advise: After upgrading to SBCL 1.0.25, and updating slime, slime will fire up in emacs, the sbcl process starts but I cannot get a slime REPL. No errors reported. 10:48:15 processes are still running. Just need a pointer on how to debug/turn on logging. 10:48:26 <_3b> (slime-setup '(slime fancy slime-asdf)) in .emacs 10:48:42 slime-fancy 10:49:03 <_3b> right 10:49:53 Great! That works! 10:50:24 Thankyou 10:50:41 just '(slime-repl) would have done 10:50:53 with slime-fancy you get all sorts of junk that you might well not want 10:51:32 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 10:52:52 Thanks Xof. Better to start there. I hadn't updated for more than year, so need to reset to a good start point. 10:53:28 Krystof annotated #77837 "difference in sb!impl::rehash" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77837#1 10:53:49 dto [n=user@68-187-212-45.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:54:13 if anyone is following along with my efforts: here's an interesting one. This is the only substantive difference between REHASH as compiled with xc-on-clisp and REHASH as compiled with xc-on-sbcl 10:54:16 mathrick: http://trac.common-lisp.net/cl-dwim/wiki/ 10:54:34 mathrick: feel free to change anything 10:57:27 ok 10:58:08 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 10:59:39 question for the slime experts: would it be okay for clbuild to (slime-require :swank-listener-hooks) unconditionally? 10:59:52 attila_lendvai: I'd remove the ======= formatting, it only makes sense in ASCII. And I don't have a login to do it myself 11:00:27 mathrick: you don't have login for cl.net? i'll do that then... 11:01:04 nope 11:01:07 never needed one before 11:06:48 My parentheses look flaming hot 11:09:02 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:09:55 I took a picture: http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/2188/12146909.png 11:13:22 -!- Ragnaroek [i=8f5df9f5@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-396923615a8e979e] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 11:17:17 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 11:18:25 florist [i=shreyas@unaffiliated/florist] has joined #lisp 11:18:49 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable085.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:18:53 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable085.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 11:19:21 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest84274 11:21:02 Is there a lispbot in this channel that can answer questions? 11:21:15 <_3b> minion: can you answer questions? 11:21:16 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 11:21:51 florist: this is primarily a channel for humans, but some of them answer questions, too. 11:22:33 Guest84274: that's good camouflage 11:23:51 H4ns: thanks. I just wanted to make sure. 11:24:04 Krystof: Can I tell a joke? 11:24:04 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 11:26:23 appletizer [i=user@82-46-30-114.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:27:06 FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has joined #lisp 11:27:57 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:29:01 -!- florist [i=shreyas@unaffiliated/florist] has quit ["leaving"] 11:35:32 s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-229-72.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:28 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-181-99.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 11:38:13 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-229-72.dynamic.hinet.net] has left #lisp 11:38:27 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 11:41:30 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:43:14 minion: can Quadrescence tell a joke? 11:43:15 you speak nonsense 11:45:07 is this if he's capable of telling a joke, or if we allow him to tell one? 11:45:49 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:47:05 s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-229-72.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:54 levy: is it possible to manually create/pass transactions to SELECT? 11:49:58 I'm writing a weblocks store implementation based on PEREC, and it'd be useful for implementing weblocks's BEGIN/COMMIT 11:50:47 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17ED0C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:51:34 mathrick: perec is using cl-rdbms's transaction api. it has a begin/commit/rollback api also, although it's not advised to use it instead of with-transaction 11:52:01 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:52:09 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 11:52:17 I've noticed, it relies heavily on the global *TRANSACTION* and *DATABASE* variables 11:52:45 s/global/special/ 11:53:05 they're defined globally as well 11:53:30 but they are intentionally not bound (at least in any of our production systems) 11:53:38 I know 11:53:48 ASSERT-NOT-TRANSACTION checks for that 11:53:48 we use constructs like with-model-transaction, etc to avoid surprises 11:54:59 attila_lendvai: problem wasn't with the fact they're not bound, but that cl-rdbms doesn't let you pass db/transaction objects explicitly to all operations 11:55:19 so in fact you *have* to go through *TRANSACTION*/*DATABASE* 11:55:21 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:48 that's a limitation on the possible implementation of a perec-backed store, as weblocks allows multiple independent stores 11:56:03 mathrick: that's fixable, but as we only use with-transaction, those code path's are not tested. patches are welcome. 11:56:19 mhm 11:57:08 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 11:57:15 using multiple stores/transactions is possible by rebinding the specials. having an &key interface that does that internally is a matter of taste 11:57:41 *attila_lendvai* needs to get some food 11:57:54 attila_lendvai: yes, but it'd be ugly when combined with multiple transactions running concurrently 11:58:12 because specials are, as the name suggests, special 11:58:59 matter of taste. i don't see much difference between a (with-context ...) and a (do-something &key context). i think i even prefer the first... 11:59:13 although the two can live together 11:59:28 *attila_lendvai* afk 12:00:22 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Client Quit] 12:01:12 levy: another question, can you make a non-persistent object of a persistent class? 12:05:38 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:42 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 12:06:07 mathrick: yes, you can, perec by default creates persistent instances, but it is controlled by a special variable 12:06:45 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:06:47 mathrick: see *make-persistent-instances*, with-making-transient-instances, 12:06:54 ah 12:06:55 goo 12:06:56 d 12:07:08 levy: and how do I persist them afterwards? 12:07:26 mathrick: make-persistent 12:07:29 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:34 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:07:39 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:20 levy: thanks 12:08:51 deliana [n=deliana@147.210.246.189] has joined #lisp 12:10:08 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:12:00 mathrick: iirc make-persistent is not recursive, so it cannot save transient object graphs 12:12:33 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 12:12:37 mathrick: i guess it wouldn't be difficult 12:12:46 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-16.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 12:13:00 ah 12:14:34 'hello 12:14:40 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:15:39 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:50 -!- Eleanore [n=el@c213-100-35-238.swipnet.se] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:23:56 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B506.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:24:11 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:24:33 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:25:48 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 12:28:24 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 12:30:19 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:30:32 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:32:46 HET2 [n=diman@128.131.254.28] has joined #lisp 12:33:09 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:35:05 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 12:35:31 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:36:31 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 12:38:04 levy: hmm, it seems that SELECT doesn't know how to compile (where (= (oid-of o) 1234)), is it supposed to work? 12:38:31 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.144.190] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:45:38 mathrick: it should, if the query compiler does not know how to compile, then it will run in lisp, in this specific case it should compile to SQL 12:46:53 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@dpc6745208046.direcpc.com] has joined #lisp 12:46:58 Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 12:47:11 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 12:48:00 levy pasted "perec oid-of in select" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77911 12:50:36 levy: okay, found the problem, parenthesis malfunction :) 12:51:26 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:53 dtangren [n=dtangren@c-76-125-177-14.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:55 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 12:52:04 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:52:44 -!- sysfault [n=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:53:04 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 12:57:27 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 12:58:03 -!- HET2 [n=diman@128.131.254.28] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:58:53 francogrex [n=franco@106.48-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 13:00:45 Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@dhcp-49111.phys.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 13:02:16 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:03:16 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [No route to host] 13:04:57 Zero [n=cyril@ariadne.enseirb.fr] has joined #lisp 13:04:59 francogrex pasted "Optimize" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77913 13:05:19 hi, I have a question regarding this pastie 13:05:25 -!- Zero is now known as Guest3476 13:05:59 why does the code with declaration give wrong results under certain conditions? 13:06:17 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:06:38 because your declarations are lies 13:06:51 huh? why? 13:07:03 you have said "(+ u v) is a fixnum" 13:07:07 what happens if in fact it isn't? 13:07:14 isn't it? 13:07:39 no, that's not how it works. _you_ need to prove that it _is_ 13:08:25 but even if I remove this : (the fixnum (+ u v)) and just use (+ u v) still a problem 13:08:40 you have also declared that u and v are individually fixnums 13:08:47 that can be a lie too 13:09:12 have you even read your own code? 13:09:21 oh, maybe it's not your code 13:09:39 maybe you should read the code, carefully, and work out what it's doing and how it works 13:09:49 once you've done that, come back and ask more questions if necessary 13:10:02 -!- mtd_ is now known as mtd 13:10:28 Zero [n=cyril@LAubervilliers-153-51-10-206.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:10:28 -!- Zero [n=cyril@LAubervilliers-153-51-10-206.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:11:27 what other alteratives there are, can we declare them as bignums? 13:11:43 I have written the code based on something else by peter norvig 13:12:19 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:12:30 I wouldn't ask questions here if i laredy have the answers 13:12:34 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-46-30-114.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:13:05 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:33 no, but there are more ways of getting answers than asking here. One of them is referring back to, say, the chapters on optimization in PAIP by Peter Norvig 13:14:00 Zero [n=cyril@LAubervilliers-153-51-10-206.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:14:21 Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 13:14:28 -!- Zero is now known as Guest25969 13:14:58 and remove (safety 0) 13:15:44 not in general safe, though if francogrex happens to use sbcl or cmucl it will help 13:16:36 HET2 [n=diman@v254-028.vps.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:16:45 i am using sbcl 13:17:02 when I remove safe 0 it gives the error 13:17:03 <_3b> you shouldn't need that many declarations for SBCL, even if they were correct 13:17:20 <_3b> let it infer the types 13:17:29 -!- Guest25969 is now known as Zero 13:17:38 <_3b>: yes, i did it to get a cleaner assemvly code 13:17:40 if you're operating on bignums, optimizing and adding type declarations isn't going to buy you anything 13:17:59 -!- Zero is now known as Guest27278 13:18:01 true: I replaced fixnum with real and it works 13:18:06 but doesn't help 13:18:14 ik 13:18:22 <_3b> francogrex: you still shouldn't need that many 13:18:39 <_3b> and you probably want (integer 0) or something, not real 13:19:10 <_3b> but first you should profile 13:19:34 your assembly code is very clean, but computes the wrong answer 13:19:44 perhaps this means that your stated goal is wrong? 13:20:11 <_3b> (when (equal n 1) n) doesn't do anything there 13:22:26 c|mell [n=cmell@nttkyo036048.tkyo.nt.ngn.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:23:45 jsnell: have you seen my comment above about unwind-to-frame-and-call? 13:24:11 no, how far back? 13:24:53 "jsnell: in unwind-to-frame-and-call (inst sub esp-tn unwind-block-size) subtracts 3 bytes instead of 3 words as intended" 13:25:46 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-118-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:53 do we conclude that nothing uses unwind-to-frame-and-call? 13:26:42 restarting or returning from a frame uses it. whether anybody actually uses those is another question 13:26:44 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B506.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:48 well it's for interactive use and clobberring the top of stack is not likely to screw things up 13:27:09 but yes, goes to show that it's stupid to name things -size rather than -words or -bytes 13:28:14 agreed 13:28:44 I forward ported nyef's swap-ocfp-and-return-pc on x86 patch 13:28:56 Dunno if either of you has a hint for me for ? 13:29:12 -!- Guest3476 [n=cyril@ariadne.enseirb.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:29:14 and changed the calling convention a bit for multiple return values 13:29:35 cool 13:29:45 -!- chpln [n=chpln@ppp121-45-157-74.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has left #lisp 13:30:09 so that if the number of values is <= 3 (i.e. no stack values are used) then it simply returns with pop ebp-tn; ret 13:30:20 -!- FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:30:26 Krystof annotated #77837 "traces for REHASH" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77837#2 13:30:44 so far I fail to see the performance gain :-( 13:32:14 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has quit [] 13:32:18 programming modern x86 is really lovely. any code that's stupid about things like this will end up getting executed as quickly as the smart code :-) 13:32:50 -!- HET2 [n=diman@v254-028.vps.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 13:33:37 it's probably the receiving end that unoptimizes it as it has to do another test/jmp 13:34:52 Xof: no smart ideas, just the brute-force "add tracing to pack.lisp and diff the traces" kind 13:35:00 Is anyone in here aware of how clsql would support postgresql TEXT types? 13:35:57 I think I sent a patch in about 18 months ago, but cannot find it. And deleted my patched version! Gah! 13:36:12 -!- wchogg_ is now known as wchogg 13:36:59 jsnell: I read an authoritive microbenchmark on someone's blog urging for paired call/ret 13:37:19 borism [n=boris@195.50.201.96] has joined #lisp 13:38:43 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195.50.200.243] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:38:52 sure, we did get a decent improvement when we started pairing those (thanks to better branch prediction) rather than the bizarre pairing of CALL/JMP and JMP/RET that we were using before 13:40:52 in this case it's call/jmp being changed to call/ret 13:41:28 for the local calling convention, right? 13:41:40 no, 13:42:18 the jmp is what the fixed/unknown multiple value return does 13:42:59 -!- theorie [n=chatzill@pool-71-178-238-188.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:44:26 ah, right, nyef only changed the fixed/single case 13:45:04 but then again, that's going to be a lot more common than fixed multiple return 13:46:37 sure, but I'm having trouble showing an improvement in a targeted microbenchmark 13:46:41 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:50:59 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 13:52:00 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-201-204.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:53:48 mega1 pasted "x86 mv return with RET" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77916 13:54:28 mega1 annotated #77916 "Disassembly with 1.0.26.21" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77916#1 13:55:04 mega1 annotated #77916 "Disassembly with patched 1.0.26.21" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77916#2 13:55:45 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:55:55 That's my microbenchmark that ends up being just as fast patched/unpatched. 13:57:30 -!- ASau [n=user@host224-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["Off!"] 13:59:20 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1E10E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:59:34 segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1D4F7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:24 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:02:26 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 14:03:03 -!- Guest84274 is now known as pkhuong 14:05:20 -!- francogrex [n=franco@106.48-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:06:00 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 14:06:35 -!- Guest27278 [n=cyril@LAubervilliers-153-51-10-206.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:07:25 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-72-131.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:07:47 I wonder why we use caller allocated frames. 14:08:29 with ocfp, return-pc swapped it should be easier to just CALL and push ebp, mov ebp, esp 14:09:42 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:10:03 mega1: :known calls, maybe. 14:10:37 pkhuong: care to elaborate? 14:14:02 mib_wlo7qm [i=4f340c0b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ad68acfdf340b354] has joined #lisp 14:14:28 calls to local functions that are only called directly can get custom calling conventions (involving better use of registers), I believe. 14:17:15 can't they get the same with callee allocated frames? 14:17:20 There might be some hair with regular callee-allocated frames (e.g., the return pointer could have another location than the regular one... except that never happens on x86) 14:17:23 brown [n=user@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 14:17:41 erh, s/return/old-fp/ I guess 14:17:51 -!- brown is now known as Guest31752 14:19:34 -!- mib_wlo7qm [i=4f340c0b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ad68acfdf340b354] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 14:19:44 Necromas [n=Necromas@mortensen-141-224-236-113.augsburg.edu] has joined #lisp 14:21:27 Yuuhi [i=benni@84.131.198.178] has joined #lisp 14:21:44 I am new to lisp and am making a simple function to reverse the order of a list, which can be seen here: http://pastebin.com/d1dfc542b 14:22:13 willb [n=wibenton@wireless92.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:22:27 the problem it has is that I get a NIL at the beginning of my result every time, so if I do (reverse 1 '(1 2 3 4)) the output is (NIL 4 3 2 1) 14:22:33 it looks terrible 14:23:11 that sure was helpful 14:23:15 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:23:52 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-73-65.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:23:55 snippyhollow [n=snippyho@tkbn103153.catv.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:24:07 you are welcome 14:24:31 milanj [n=milan@93.86.23.116] has joined #lisp 14:25:20 Necromas, treating parentheses as curly braces is generally frowned upon, style-wise 14:25:28 clhs atom 14:25:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_atom.htm 14:25:34 nil is an atom 14:27:51 but how does a nil get there if it should stop the recursion as soon as it's down to 1 element? 14:27:54 <_3b> Necromas: what should it return for '((1 2 3) 4 5 6)? 14:27:58 yeah, cdr will only return an atom when it returns nil, so you need to work on your termination condition 14:28:18 (cdr '(1)) => nil 14:28:24 Jasko: in the proper list 14:28:37 stassats`, good point 14:29:33 oic I was treating it as if (cdr '(1 2)) would give me 2 14:29:37 but of course it gives (2) 14:29:57 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:29:58 so I just have to have a condition for if it's a 1 element list 14:30:07 Necromas: also, using APPEND in recursive functions will probably give you O(N^2) or worse time complexity. 14:30:42 this is my second lisp program ever, I dont think I'm gonna be graded on time complexity 14:30:51 Ok. 14:31:09 and the more appropriate name would be flatten-and-reverse 14:31:30 Necromas: so, the NIl comes from the fact that lisp lists are built from CONS cells (1 2 3 4) == (1 . (2 . (3 . (4 . NIL)))) 14:31:31 <_3b> stassats`: i was assuming the flattening was a bug 14:32:13 flattening = destruction of lists inside the inputted list? 14:32:16 Necromas: the first element of a list is given by FIRST (it's actually stored in the CAR of the first CONS cell) 14:32:22 <_3b> Necromas: yes 14:32:26 Necromas: the rest of the elements of a list is given by REST (it's actually stored in the CDR of the first CONS cell). 14:32:32 ya, that's the next problem is to fix that 14:32:52 And you can use ENDP to test whether you've reached the end of a proper list. 14:33:12 (proper lists are lists the end with NIL, normal lisp lists). 14:33:18 s/the/that/ 14:33:40 why endp instead of null? convey meaning? 14:34:00 endp works only on lists 14:34:08 Because ENDP works at the level of lists, whie null works at the level of cons cells. 14:34:20 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:34:39 when is a list not a cons cell? 14:34:44 So when yyou process lists, it's better to use first, rest and endp rather than car, cdr and null which should be reserved to cons cell structures. 14:34:52 tic: nil 14:34:52 When you consider it as a list. 14:35:17 It's a question of abstraction. 14:35:25 matimago, e.g. "convey meaning"? (bad phrasing on my part) 14:35:47 yes. 14:36:03 perfectly reasonable explanation. I like that too. 14:36:37 Notice also that ENDP is different than NULL. endp signals an error when it gets an non null atom, so it checks for proper lists. 14:37:05 *nod* 14:37:53 wtf does it mean when there's a "QUOTE" in the output? 14:38:32 that your list contains QUOTE symbol 14:38:37 deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:08 (quote (1 2)) == '(1 2) 14:39:21 my quess, you did something like '(1 2 '(3 4)) 14:40:27 well here's the new code: http://pastebin.com/d5d28aecd and it works for what I need it to do but now I gotta make a non-flattening version 14:40:58 just don't reverse-1 on car 14:41:05 Necromas: you could use http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp ; it sends a message automatically here... 14:41:22 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:42:02 <_3b> Necromas: spell out list instead of abbreviating it lst, don't put ) on a line by themselves 14:42:59 if I don't reverse1 it will try to car when it's just an atom 14:43:05 but I can fix that 14:46:51 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@c-76-125-177-14.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:47:19 willb1 [n=wibenton@wireless92.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:47:53 oh, and calling it list wouldn't work because that word is taken 14:48:04 By who? 14:48:05 <_3b> by whom? 14:48:09 stassats pasted "reverse" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77919 14:48:22 <_3b> (you are using common lisp, right?) 14:48:35 ya 14:48:56 list is a function 14:49:01 So what? 14:49:07 <_3b> function names and variable names are independent 14:49:20 well it's still convenient not to overlap them 14:49:28 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:49:32 <_3b> it is also convenient to have readable names 14:50:07 can we not argue about the variable name and focus on the bad implimentation? 14:50:31 What shall reverse1 do? 14:50:45 Can you spell it out in English? 14:51:01 <_3b> we weren't arguning, just making sure you understood how it worked 14:52:01 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:52:19 reverse1 should reverse the elements in a list if the input is a list of atoms, now I have to make a reverse2 that can reverse it if it has lists inside it (but it should not reverse the internal lists) 14:52:47 what's the difference? 14:52:55 Ok. What does (reverse1 (car lst)) do? 14:53:17 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless92.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:53:27 simard [n=user@modemcable234.226-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:54:15 it takes the first element of the list and runs it through the function, where it will return as a list of that element because the atom condition will be met 14:54:18 what is the simplest way of generating a list containing integers from a to b inclusively ? ex: (fromto 5 7) => (5 6 7) 14:54:33 (loop for i from 5 to 7 collect i) 14:54:40 jsnell: do you have an instinct for good packing strategies? I now have a guess for the discrepancy I pasted 14:54:45 Necromas: wouldn't it be simplier to use (list (car lst))? 14:54:51 and without loop ? 14:55:02 (using a weird dialect here..) 14:55:05 yes that's already been stated 14:55:07 and I changed it 14:55:09 Ok. 14:55:17 but it still doesn't help in handling lists of lists 14:55:19 Necromas: What should happen if lst is not a list of atoms? 14:55:27 HET2 [n=diman@v254-028.vps.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 14:55:43 I don't have to care about that 14:55:49 specifically, the maphash in the *repack-blocks* bit at the end of PACK will behave differently in different host implementations 14:56:14 Necromas: then why should we consider it in the problem statement? Couldn't reverse1 just reverse the elements in a list. 14:56:23 simard: (defun fromto (from to) (if (> from to) nil (cons from (fromto (1+ from) to)))) 14:56:26 birdsbite [n=user@74.196.9.26] has joined #lisp 14:56:30 newlisper [n=wschroed@128.252.233.244] has joined #lisp 14:56:55 If you use (list (car lst)), doesn't (reverse1 '(1 2 (3 4 5) 6 7)) give what you expect? 14:56:56 I need to take an input like (reverse2 '(1 2 (3 4) 5)) and it should output (5 (3 4) 2 1) 14:57:22 matimago, it gives me an error "A proper list must not end with 2" 14:57:29 Beket [n=stathis@adsl-247-085.diodos.auth.gr] has joined #lisp 14:57:39 Necromas: with (list (car lst)) it shouldn't. 14:57:40 drewc: are you here? 14:57:42 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@195.49.138.42] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 14:57:50 Necromas: paste your current version. 14:57:53 minion: lisppaste? 14:57:54 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 14:58:12 ya I will 14:58:16 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 14:58:33 okay I fixed it 14:58:52 works fine now 14:58:59 Krystof: ah, that's funny. my intuition is that there's no simple heuristic for what block iteration order would work best 14:59:08 Necromas: On both list of atoms and lists of lists? 14:59:12 ya 14:59:18 So you don't need to do a reverse2. Fine! 14:59:38 well it's still different from my original "good enough" reverse1 14:59:53 Necromas: the lesson here is that users often give requirements that contain unless conditions and cases. 14:59:56 so I guess I can rename it 15:00:00 s/unless/useless/ 15:00:12 Or (defun reverse2 (list) (reverse1 list)) ;-) 15:00:50 dtangren [n=dtangren@c-76-125-177-14.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:28 stassats`: thank you 15:01:34 Necromas: Also, you shouldn't test something when you don't know what to do with the result of the test. Since there's no specification of what to do in reverse1 when the list contains non-atom, you shouldn't test for atoms there. 15:02:02 simard: doesn't your lisp have any looping constructions? goto? 15:04:28 matimago, the "atom test" was so it would end the recursion instead of trying to cdr an atom 15:04:28 Channel question... Why do we have more than one bot? 15:04:44 why not? 15:04:44 lonliness 15:04:46 not to prevent bad input 15:05:03 -!- Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@dhcp-49111.phys.ntnu.no] has quit [] 15:05:25 stassats`: I asked first :) 15:05:26 Necromas: you had two tests, (atom lst) and (equal (cdr lst) nil). 15:05:40 Necromas: you should have only one: (endp lst) 15:05:46 newlisper: they're pretty much the same bot, but they have different nicknames 15:05:49 minion: lisppaste 15:06:02 (hmmm, that used to make lisppaste say its url) (: 15:06:03 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 15:06:06 oh yes. 15:06:13 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:06:18 some humans have more than one nickname, so it would seem that Lisp has that many users 15:06:25 HET3 [n=diman@v254-041.vps.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 15:06:29 heh 15:06:33 it's just a constant factor 15:06:54 jsnell: bah. Well, let's see if this is the issue anyway 15:08:03 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@c-76-125-177-14.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:08:31 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 15:09:04 -!- HET2 [n=diman@v254-028.vps.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:09:20 Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@dhcp-49111.phys.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 15:09:34 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:09:34 -!- Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@dhcp-49111.phys.ntnu.no] has quit [Client Quit] 15:09:45 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:47 Okay, I will answer "why not"... might be a little long... 15:09:51 Offer too many options to humans, and they become overwhelmed. They find it easier to make choices when those choices are narrowed down (hence the unfortunate lust of issue1 vs issue2 dichotomies). More than one way = more confusing. Anyway, since I am not experienced enough yet on this channel, I don't know who to ask what. And it seems like nice channel code is in multiple places instead of consolidated. No major opinion on my side, though. 15:10:26 Well, it depends on the kind of human. Slaves or free men? 15:10:37 you only need to talk to minion 15:11:09 csr21@omega:~/sbcl-git/src/compiler (repeatable-build)$ cmp /tmp/t.clispnew.fasl /tmp/t.sbclnew.fasl && echo Hooray! 15:11:09 Hooray! 15:11:22 Krystof: you did it! 15:11:30 matimago: Who is free? 15:11:50 antifuchs: actually I am more surprised that no bit of the shell complained about the exclamation mark 15:12:00 haha 15:12:48 I'm seeing a 30% performance increase (elapsed time) after upgrading from sbcl 1.0.11 to 1.0.25 15:13:14 Also, I have removed a forced GC from the code and all is stable 15:13:39 well, 11-25 is more than a year 15:13:41 Unfortunately I also had to upgrade pretty much every asdf installed package 15:14:28 wentbackward: just removing all the fasls didn't work for you? 15:14:29 The process covers about 30 million rows of data and heavily IO bound so the real increase is much more. 15:15:20 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:15:42 newlisper: free is the man who has a lot of choices. 15:16:13 dlowe, I can't remember why I started updating them. cffi I think. One thing led to another ... 15:16:22 -!- snippyhollow [n=snippyho@tkbn103153.catv.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["night"] 15:16:47 Anyhow, just to say thanks to the SBCL hackers! 15:16:49 sbcl complains about free variables. must be a tool of the establishment, I guess. 15:17:31 wentbackward: wow. this is a big increase. 15:17:32 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 15:18:16 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 15:18:17 The universe of Tron is rather totalitarian, no? 15:18:29 There's this MCP... 15:18:52 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:19 jocke_ [n=jocke@witychu.khg.sgsnet.se] has joined #lisp 15:20:13 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:20:14 schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:22:00 -!- jyujin [n=jyujin@d221-88-81.commercial.cgocable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:22:49 heh, totalitarism. I live nowadays in the land of Big Brother :D 15:23:13 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@87.236.135.147] has quit ["this is not a quit message"] 15:23:53 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:24:03 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:57 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-115-47.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:32 -!- jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:27:22 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:41 -!- HET3 [n=diman@v254-041.vps.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:29:49 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-72-131.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 15:29:53 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-159-135.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:29:55 hi 15:32:23 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@66.166.232.134] has joined #lisp 15:32:58 -!- pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 15:33:29 I have a problem with slime. I'm using the current cvs version with emacs 23. Since a few days slime is broken for me. When I try to run slime-connect I alway get the following error: require: Symbol's value as variable is void: enclosing-form-specs\.1 here is the debugger output http://paste.lisp.org/display/77921 how can I fix slime? 15:34:12 pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has joined #lisp 15:35:43 ruediger: if you want to debug it, load it uncompiled, and do it again. Then the debugger should give you several frames of stack. 15:36:04 (delete the .elc and load it) 15:36:23 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 15:36:25 ok 15:36:39 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 15:36:46 -!- blandest [n=blandest@85.204.33.242] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:37:02 matimago: strange. That fixed the problem :/ so somehow compilation broke it 15:37:14 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit [Client Quit] 15:37:18 Perhaps you were using a .elc compiled with an older emacs? 15:37:43 Now you can compile it again with M-x byte-compile-file RET slime.el RET 15:38:34 btw. is there a reason why slime doesn't come with a Makefile to byte compile the emacs lisp code and compile the lisp code? 15:39:00 matimago: I alway used emacs -q -batch -f batch-byte-compile *.el on the command line 15:39:38 Well, I often don't care compiling my lisp or elisp sources... 15:39:40 dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 15:40:13 We'd need an asdf for emacs :-0 15:41:14 :D 15:41:36 ruediger: are you sure that's the same emacs you're using on the command line? 15:41:54 rsynnott: yes. I'm on Linux not on OSX :) 15:42:12 and it works for everything else and it worked for slime until recently. 15:42:41 (but slime is great though. I really have to do some real lisp hacking, again) 15:47:41 muen [n=user@123.139.34.171] has joined #lisp 15:48:13 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@dpc6745208046.direcpc.com] has quit [] 15:49:19 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:51:09 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:53:21 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:09 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [] 15:55:53 -!- muen [n=user@123.139.34.171] has left #lisp 15:56:17 Good evening. 15:56:33 hello beach 15:56:52 Good evening 15:57:12 manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 15:58:38 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:59:10 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 15:59:11 ak70 [i=ak70@92.41.175.133.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:00:26 hi, has anyone compiled clisp 2.47 on HP-UX 11? 16:05:23 ak70: I suggest stealing root, wiping the HD and reinstalling something resembling a sane OS :) 16:05:35 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 16:06:00 I like HP-UX actually. It's very posix conformant :) 16:06:13 And that is the only part I like in it :P 16:06:35 POSIX-conformant's not necessarily a compliment 16:07:02 mathrick: are you a linux user? 16:07:13 posix does DUMB things like using 512-bytes display units by default 16:07:15 Eleanore [n=el@c213-100-35-238.swipnet.se] has joined #lisp 16:07:40 H4ns: yes, though I don't love it, I more stick it out of habit and ubuntu's refusal to run on other kernels 16:07:46 mathrick: it is dumb only if you ignore history. 16:07:48 I am work for a client who uses HP superdome. And I try to use lisp as my script language. 16:08:07 H4ns: I know it has reasons, but is terribly, terribly inconvenient 16:08:28 mathrick: i find linux terribly, terribly inconvenient. personally. 16:08:39 I completely believe you 16:08:44 what's your drug? 16:08:48 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:08:57 mathrick: i don't do drugs. 16:09:05 I don't know clisp compiles on it, and I dont have access for the machine yet. 16:09:11 (won't claim i never did :) ) 16:09:20 H4ns: æh, "your drug" == what do you prefer? 16:09:53 mathrick: windows on the desktop, freebsd on the server. 16:10:02 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:11:16 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 16:11:23 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:12:05 I have to run user created functions which will iterate across millions of rows of market data. I've built something that works well in Lisp, provides quite a rich environment for the client code. However. I need to provide a language ala VBA/Excel type nastiness. Any suggestions for a parser library to get me started 16:13:34 H4ns: ah, fbsd would be totally my system if there was ubuntu for it. I like its good support for hardware, reasonable approach to kernel compat, zero-effort linux binary compatibility and a sensible array of supported architectures. Userspace is the only thing that keeps me from moving 16:13:45 levy pasted "validate-superclass bad practice?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77924 16:14:09 I tried debian/kbsd in qemu recently, but it's not really near what I consider hassle-free OS 16:14:10 any CLOS guru here? this is a tricky questin 16:14:18 s/questin/question/ 16:17:16 actually if you have two libraries with custom metaclasses, chances are that you can cross subclass your classes with those metaclasses silently and accidentally despite of validate-superclass 16:18:01 .. or rather parser generator that can ultimately get me back to Lisp. 16:18:24 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:20:03 -!- ak70 [i=ak70@92.41.175.133.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has left #lisp 16:20:52 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:22:54 wentbackward: if you can design your own language, why not make it a lisp too? 16:23:22 minion: tell wentbackward about cl-yacc 16:23:23 wentbackward: have a look at cl-yacc: CL-Yacc is a LALR(1) parser generator library for Common Lisp, somewhat like Zebu or LALR.cl. http://www.cliki.net/cl-yacc 16:23:33 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:23:35 josemanuel [n=josemanu@166.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:23:35 f our program - freezing it in time. This is similar to an OS putting itself into hibernation. A continuation object contains the information necessary to restart the program from the point where the continuation object was acquired. An operating system does this to your program all the time when it context switches between the threads. The only difference is that it keeps all the control. If you ask for a continuation object (in Scheme this is done by calling cal 16:23:43 ohh f 16:23:44 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@pD9E6C3BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:45 sorry 16:25:11 dlowe1, That was my initial thought, and in fact, apart from sandboxing the code, pretty much works now. Unfortunately I need something that people familar with Excel could use. 16:25:22 :( 16:25:40 wentbackward: I've had far more luck training non-programmers in lisp myself 16:26:06 but hey, if that's what the spec says, who am I to argue 16:27:12 I might be able to take the angle of ... well you remember your HP12C before uncle bill gave you excel, well guess what ... 16:28:16 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl064.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 16:28:52 It's early days for this part of the system. As something Lisp-like would be easy to implement I guess I could do that first. 16:29:45 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has quit [] 16:30:13 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:31:01 I'll invest some time in cl-yacc too. There are a few to choose from, it's the only recommendation I have! 16:32:18 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 16:33:23 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:33:24 -!- deliana [n=deliana@147.210.246.189] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:33:40 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 16:33:52 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 16:34:04 Greetings! 16:34:16 hello tmh 16:34:44 Hey beach 16:37:16 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 16:39:15 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6EE4D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:41:01 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.190.219] has joined #lisp 16:42:10 -!- Beket [n=stathis@adsl-247-085.diodos.auth.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:45:20 -!- wentbackward [n=wentback@n219077065141.netvigator.com] has quit [""gnight""] 16:47:53 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 16:48:11 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:48:21 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:52 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-128-198.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:49:01 kreuter: that's x86 and x86-64 on which OS? 16:49:56 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:50:10 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:23 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:47 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-229-72.dynamic.hinet.net] has left #lisp 16:54:43 jsnell: that's state of the OS X threaded build if you are referring to sbcl-devel 16:54:45 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:06 ah, ok 16:55:35 I didn't realize those were a quote from pkhuong's message 16:55:43 -!- segv__ is now known as segv 16:55:57 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Success] 16:56:14 cads [n=max@adsl-154-105-103.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:34 dabd [n=dabd@mouse.inesc-id.pt] has joined #lisp 16:56:37 there is no regression that we are aware of 16:56:44 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:48 okay I have another question for you guys 16:56:51 Necromas pasted "Mult-even" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77927 16:57:03 but clearly, OS X threads are in need of some love 16:57:14 the purpose of that code is to take all the even numbers in a list of integers and multiply them together 16:57:16 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Client Quit] 16:57:50 I think it should work for all cases as long as the input is a list of integers, but the professor implied it might not. 16:58:00 but I cant find any case that doesn't work 16:58:55 your professor is right 17:00:00 okay, I'll proceed. 17:00:03 well can I have a hint? 17:00:21 it depends, is this homework? :-) 17:00:39 Necromas: have you run it? 17:00:42 ya 17:00:58 I put all kinds of lists of integers into it and so far it's worked for all of em 17:01:18 appletizer [i=user@82-46-30-114.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:01:20 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B506.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:01:25 it's homework but we're allowed to ask for help 17:01:43 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:01:44 if she were here she'd probably just tell me 17:01:51 has the concept of tail recursion been explained to you? 17:01:57 nope 17:02:18 then it's an unfair piece of homework :-P 17:02:25 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:02:27 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:51 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.161.55] has quit ["What do you mean "CONNECT 1200"?????"] 17:04:16 Necromas: have you put in a list of integers that's 10,000,000 long? 17:05:04 I don't see why that should make a difference unless it gets an overflow 17:05:38 numbers don't normally overflow in CL 17:06:14 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:06:56 stacks do 17:09:52 woooah thats a big number 17:10:09 that's a big stack :p 17:10:26 *dlowe1* was hoping to overflow it 17:10:34 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@166.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 17:10:35 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 17:10:42 well I didn't actually put 10,000,000 numbers into it 17:10:59 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:11:48 Necromas: this will generate the list you need: (loop for i upto 10000000 collect i) 17:11:57 don't put that in a repl :p 17:12:25 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.88.5] has joined #lisp 17:12:27 okay fine I'll overflow it if you really want me to 17:13:07 Necromas: the fact is, since you CAN overflow it with a valid list of integers, then your function will not accept ANY valid input 17:13:09 er 17:13:34 but saying it can be overflowed is kind of like saying "Well it wont work if you put in decimals"" 17:13:35 your function won't accept all valid inputs :p 17:13:42 it's a little too obvious 17:13:56 maybe, but there's a way to write your function where that doesn't happen *shrug* 17:14:09 <_3b> not working for non-integers is part of the spec 17:14:19 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:14:24 <_3b> not working for long lists is a limitation of the implementation 17:15:05 okay, someone else gave me a hint "Look at the test cases" 17:15:52 but maybe he meant non-integer inputs 17:16:16 Necromas: I assume that you're actually supposed to return 1 with an empty list? 17:16:16 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 17:16:23 ya 17:16:30 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-125-22-221.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:16:32 it's hard to believe that the question wasn't about bogus use of recursion 17:16:36 -!- dabd [n=dabd@mouse.inesc-id.pt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:17:09 it's also possible they were just yanking your chain 17:17:23 oh well I'll just specify it only works in cases where the list consists only of integers and is not sufficiently large to overflow the stack. And then move on with my life. 17:17:38 since it is indeed such an obvious problem in the function that a) I was going to comment on it before you even asked the question b) nobody would write it like that unless they were demonstrating how to not write this 17:17:56 This be one of those "lisp is for recursion" classes 17:18:23 <_3b> maybe the course materials were designed for scheme 17:19:50 Necromas: is this CSC 373? 17:20:12 not sure 17:21:06 it's the only course that mentions "Lisp or Scheme" explicitly 17:21:12 it is a 300 level class though 17:21:24 and I'm taking it a little earlier than I should 17:21:37 but my schedule wouldn't work well otherwise 17:22:27 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 17:22:47 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:23:09 bah. what kind of CS program these days doesn't put its coursework online 17:26:22 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-47-42.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 17:28:10 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 17:30:48 ikki [n=ikki@189.240.40.82] has joined #lisp 17:37:26 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:37:32 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 17:39:54 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:46 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:52 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-21.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:20 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-15484.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 17:46:27 Necromas: I suppose you have some artificial restrictions with respect to what standard Lisp stuff you can use. 17:46:49 Necromas: Because it is very unusual to actually use recursion on lists in Lisp. 17:51:41 nis [n=nicolas@91-165-141-79.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:03 -!- levy [n=ati@apn-94-44-15-68.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 17:58:53 ejs [n=eugen@166-81-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:52 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 17:59:53 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"] 18:03:48 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:24 hi tombom 18:08:34 didn't you visit #rlx a while ago? 18:09:51 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 18:09:52 yes 18:10:03 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-159-135.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:11:46 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:12:39 tombom: i will let you know when a windows version is available. should be soon 18:13:49 ok thanks 18:16:58 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-fa7f419b1deeae56] has joined #lisp 18:17:54 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 18:18:40 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:18:45 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 18:20:41 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:20:51 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:22:32 *tic* reads the "macros are bad"-slideshow 18:23:11 mmmkay 18:23:20 I'm not sure I agree 18:23:36 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:23:41 ilitirit_ [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 18:25:20 -!- ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:28:21 That "debate" was so staged. They appear to have been trying to manufacture a dispute where there is none. 18:29:02 mulander [n=user@nat-4.interq.pl] has joined #lisp 18:29:33 I hear all the real action was in the lightning talks. 18:30:32 tic: Can you point me to the link where someone tried to argue "macros are bad"? 18:30:43 When are we all going to simply agree that "programmers are bad"? All of these problems are the result of programmers. 18:31:19 Oh yeah, hammers are bad, too. 18:31:56 chainsaws are not good either, at least for the purpose of trimming fingernails 18:32:18 *tmh* forgot about chainsaws 18:32:21 ..and lisp is all fingernail clippings ()()() 18:32:49 The lightning talk format worked out really well. I think it was sellout who pointed out that the key was that there were a few pre-scheduled talks. Once those were given, people rushed to sign up to fill the remaining slots. 18:32:50 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:46 rme: I dunno, I think Jeremy was actually anti-macro, and Gabriel realized it half-way through, and tried to move to a more rational stance. 18:35:17 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:35:20 *drewc* has been known to be anti-macro at times 18:35:46 drewc: anti macro-use, or anti macro-existence? 18:36:35 good to be bad 18:36:49 sellout: well, the former really. I should be allowed to use macros ... others shouldn't :P 18:37:20 davatk [n=user@96.241.75.158] has joined #lisp 18:37:26 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:37:33 *dlowe1* hides his with-function-tracing macro from drewc. 18:37:44 sellout: i've seen a lot of macros in open source lisp code that were both unnecessary and a hindrance to understanding the code. 18:38:21 -!- davatk [n=user@96.241.75.158] has left #lisp 18:38:26 drewc: Agreed. But that doesn't mean take them out of the language. 18:38:56 macros should not be to make code easier/shorter to write IMO.. they are there to change the syntax and semantics of the evaluator when no other aproach is possible. 18:39:43 davatk [n=user@96.241.75.158] has joined #lisp 18:39:43 sellout: no, but they are often positioned as 'the best part of CL' and 'the real different between CL and ' 18:40:08 I have to disagree with that... i would trade DEFMACRO for the MOP anyday. 18:40:41 drewc: Well, now that Moon has macros for any language with syntax, it's no longer a differentiator ;) 18:40:57 sellout: yeah, so did dylan. 18:41:11 Moons syntax is a lot more horrible though. 18:41:28 I thought anyone could implement something like MOP in their language, but Lisp macros are particularly noteworthy because they look just like the language and can enable any transform you desire on your symbols. 18:42:03 I mean, I can do macros in perl by manipulating strings, but lisp provides me easier symbolic parsing, making it a ton more readable and concise. 18:42:29 hell, i have a 'javascript with extensible syntax' lying around .. if you pratt-parse something and allow extensions to the parser, you can get all* the benefits of macros and allow an irregular syntax. *some 18:42:42 newlisper: string manipluation is not macros. 18:43:01 drewc: If, by string, I am referring to the same kind of stream as the lisp reader, it pretty much can. 18:43:32 newlisper: string are not streams... 18:43:43 drewc: In perl, I can intercept the parse tree or the code source and rearrange it. 18:44:36 newlisper: i have been programming in perl for 15 years, i'm well aware of what is possible. 18:45:38 drewc: Heh, I'm not challenging that; I am suggesting that the only difference I see is that lisp makes it much much easier on many levels, while with perl, it's a bit daunting. 18:45:58 newlisper: perl is not parseable .. lisp is. 18:46:25 -!- simard [n=user@modemcable234.226-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:47:43 newlisper: my argument here might be* that defmacro is too easy, and therefore too easy to abuse... *but isn't quite 18:48:30 newlisper, http://people.csail.mit.edu/jhbrown/macros/ (from ILC09) 18:48:37 Thanks, tic 18:48:39 newlisper: and, books like OnLisp give the impression that changing the language, via macros, to suit your own personal idiosyncracies, is somewhow a good idea. 18:49:09 it's not macros per-se that i consider harmful, it's their use for trivialities. 18:49:29 drewc, what would you consider macros to be good for, then? 18:49:34 drewc: I guess I don't understand what you are getting at with perl; my recent exploration showed me the opposite of what I think you said. I was trying to figure out how to do similar things in perl recently and ended up playing with B a bit. That exploration led me to things like macro.pm and so forth, and I found ways to alter the language syntax, including straight-up parsing of a program's source. 18:49:36 *p_l* likes very much the idea of using macros for DSLs 18:50:15 drewc: That said, I probably overuse macros... :) I did think they were to improve readability. 18:50:20 (where functions can't do it) 18:50:26 who wants to parse anything? bleh. 18:50:28 p_l: i bet your dsl would work just fine using QUOTE and normal evaluation semantics 18:50:45 drewc: How narrow is the distinction between simplify code and changing the syntax and semantics? I have one(1) macro in all of the code that I have written that captures a recurrent pattern and wouldn't work when expressed as a function. But, I see it simply as a simplification. 18:51:04 drewc: note, I haven't written any DSL. Usually the ones I use are already written by someone else ;-) 18:51:10 tmh: does it simplify code for the reader, or the writer? 18:51:31 p_l: the usual example is SQL syntax in lisp.. most people use macros for that. 18:51:46 me, i think that's a horrible idea, and i use functions.... with sql syntax. 18:52:12 drewc: ORM was what I used DSLs for in Ruby, and I doubt much more (and it was all done with functions) 18:52:14 the difference : (select * :from foo) and (select '* :from 'foo) 18:52:27 It simplifies the code for me, the writer, and it simplifies the code for me, the reader, when I'm reviewing code that I haven't looked at in a while. It better expresses what is being done. 18:52:31 p_l: my O/R layer does not contain a single macro 18:52:57 tmh: can you post an example? in the abstract it's hard to argue either way 18:53:25 drewc: the ruby ones (AR and DM, the second is much better) can't be said to use macros as well... it's just like hooking functions to object initialization... 18:53:52 I actually think that Jeremy's strongest point was his contention that it's often better to write a real compiler/interpreter/whatever for a DSL. 18:54:17 rme: i have to disagree with Jeremy there :) 18:54:36 depends what kind of DSL, I guess 18:54:44 "often" is a usefully ambiguous sort of word 18:54:46 the resulting tower of babel is part of the total employment for programmers conspiracy 18:55:22 there should be a tax on defmacro and a rebate for QUOTE or `. 18:55:28 hefner: and this is something we might actually want to support :P 18:55:33 as long as they are outside the defmacro form:) 18:55:39 drewc: It's an obvious implementation of DOVECTOR, but I can't post it because I hosed my hard drive last night and am in the process of rebuilding the machine. I haven't gotten to the point of pulling my home folder from the backup. 18:55:42 Well, I substituted in "often" myself. He said "authors should buckle down" and do it. 18:56:04 tmh: my question here, why not use LOOP? 18:56:10 or map nil? 18:56:26 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-140.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 18:57:34 tmh: there are accepted idioms for iterating through a vector that readers of common lisp (not you!) are familiar and comfortable with. yet-another-iteration-macro, for me, means a M-RET to try and figure out what's different than the established iteration facilites 18:57:58 if there is no difference, curse the author! 18:58:13 (if there is a difference, DOVECTOR is a horrible name) 18:58:31 :) 18:58:32 Mathematicians do IT with Vectors? :D 18:58:33 drewc: I don't use loop in general, I stick with dotimes, dolist and do. I'm not comfortable with loop, being explicit with do seems natural to me. 18:59:02 -!- Ppjet6 [n=ppjet@ivr94-11-88-187-39-7.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:59:41 Is there a way in lisp to "uncurry"? As in, given a function that is the result of a curry, extract the orginal function that was curried? Or is that information lost when a curry occurs? 19:00:05 saikat: given that lisp doesn't "curry" to start with, no. 19:00:06 saikat: wrong channel? lisp does not curry. 19:00:10 that would depend on how you defined "curry" 19:00:16 sorry, using the curry in Alexandria 19:00:38 saikat: did you read the source code to that function? 19:00:39 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B506.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:45 i haven't, i will do that 19:01:00 saikat: that will answer your question 19:01:13 yeah you're right, just wondering if people knew offhand. thanks. 19:02:25 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:02:55 saikat: most of us know offhand, and i can think of an implementation of CURRY that would allow UNCURRY, but since CURRY doesn't really CURRY, the code will be much more educational than simply answering your question. 19:03:13 Ppjet6 [n=ppjet@ivr94-11-88-187-39-7.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:51 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:03:54 tmh: i just don't see how writing a macro is easier than (loop for item across vector do ...) 19:03:54 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 19:04:11 drewc, NIH of course! 19:04:26 tmh: i'll add 'fear of loop' to my 'reasons not to write a macro' list. 19:05:11 (i'd prefer (map nil #'fun vector) if i was a loop hater) 19:05:43 drewc: clhs says (map nil ...) always returns nil 19:05:45 you know, I've never come to terms with how the do body of a loop gets indented, or should be. I use it constantly, but it also bugs me constantly. 19:05:54 drewc: It's easier because it corresponds to dolist. My fear isn't irrational, but it seems to be forgotten at the moment. 19:05:54 or (ITERATE ....) :) 19:05:59 common lisp doesn't its vast collection of symbol names for no reason 19:06:04 +have 19:06:25 tmh: easier for you .. as a reader of your code i now hate you ;) 19:07:01 *drewc* hates DEFCLASS* style macros for the same reason 19:07:46 drewc: Get in line. ;-) Easier isn't the best word for my motivation, consistent is. It is consistent with dolist. 19:08:00 tmh: i admit, DOVECTOR is not a capital offense... but it's a fine and a slap on the wrist :) 19:08:37 drewc, how about the likes of define-binary-class from PCL? It's a macro. 19:08:52 tic: don't tell gigamonkey, but i hate it :) 19:09:01 drewc, what would you use instead? 19:09:10 tic: a custom metaclass. 19:09:24 *p_l* wants to write a RMS equivalent for CL one day :> 19:09:40 drewc, hrm. is the difference really that large? ('sides, metaclasses are hard!) 19:09:41 I can imagine tangled metaclassing being just as dangerous as tangled macros 19:09:43 if it looks enough like defclass to be called a define-foo-class, it's really a DEFCLASS with a :metaclass 19:09:51 ew ew ew. define-binary-class and its ilk have to be expunged from the universe. 19:10:21 and I have yet to see a really good binary file parser :P 19:10:24 dlowe1: i can imagine a lot.. in practice it's not a major problem. 19:10:38 drewc: a lot of macro proponents say just the same thing :) 19:10:47 dlowe1: composability of metaclasses is the only real issue.. for something like define-foo-class, that does not matter. 19:11:31 also, (class-of (make-instance 'define-binary-class-class)) vs (class-of (make-instance 'class-with binary-class-metaclass)) 19:11:34 drewc, hm. so... what *is* a macro use case? 19:11:57 tic: cc-frame, cc-let1 and cc-let* are good examples 19:12:01 wrapping unwind-protect is a popular one 19:12:21 http://paste.lisp.org/display/77636 19:12:26 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 19:12:32 dlowe1: that's an anti-pattern IMO 19:12:51 dlowe1: i'd rather see FUNCALL-WITH-* than WITH-* 19:13:35 drewc, e.g. where you simply cannot solve it in another way than with a macro, that is to say, "don't use macros for extending syntax" 19:13:47 tic: you cannot easily do what the cc-* macros do functionally .. it really is changing the syntax _and_ semantics of the language... yet it integrates quite cleanly. 19:13:47 drewc: so your personal library includes a FUNCALL-WITH-OPEN-FILE function? 19:14:13 Hello, is somebody using latest cl-irc? When I try to asdf-install it, I keep getting a compile error... 19:14:15 dlowe1: actually yes, i have something like that. 19:14:20 http://imagebin.ca/view/Kakmu0hX.html 19:14:28 [screenshot] 19:14:29 stepnem: have you tried clbuild? 19:14:35 no 19:14:49 minion: tell stepnem about clbuild 19:14:50 stepnem: please look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 19:15:10 drewc: you're like the macro anti-PG :) 19:15:11 it's supposed to be better than asdf-install? 19:15:23 dlowe1: and i wish CL had included something like it that with-open-file was specified to expand to... 19:15:31 stepnem: much :-) 19:15:41 ok, will try, thank you 19:15:46 because i've needed funcall-with-open-file.. i've never 'needed' with-open-file :) 19:15:48 stepnem: presumably your flexi-stream package is too old or too new. as a general rule, don't use asdf-install. 19:15:59 hm, thanks 19:16:10 tic: when a macro is the only real answer, then a macro it should be, yeah :) 19:16:35 dlowe1: that is the biggest complement i've recieved in this channel :) 19:16:40 drewc: I just imagine a lot of (funcall-with-open-file (lambda (inf) blah blah blah) :direction :input)) madness 19:16:53 *tic* agrees with dlowe1 19:16:54 dlowe1: what's so mad about that? 19:16:59 drewc, chatty! 19:17:07 i like chatty. 19:17:10 Lisp's verbose to begin with 19:17:12 drewc: perhaps so, but you're like him in that you're on an extreme pole upon which most lispers do not fall 19:18:12 how about (funcall-with-open-file #'well-named-file-munger :direction :input) 19:18:34 suddenly chatty is also self documenting. 19:18:59 sure, but there's decent reasons CL has DOLIST as well as MAPC 19:19:03 also, many of the lispers i've worked with do not mind, and even embrace verbosity. 19:19:44 drewc, so you'd rather drop many of the symbols defined in CL? 19:20:03 tic: that's hardly a controversial position. The controversy is which symbols :) 19:20:17 tic: ha, see you've got me all wrong. 19:21:55 i don't mind macros built on well thought out functional abstractions, and i don't care about symbols in CL.. CL was suppsoed to be backwards compatible with a lot of other lisps.. it was not designed to be succinct or even 'proper'. 19:22:42 CL is a backwards language, that's part of it's charm... hell, there was some debate over having lexical scope... 19:23:28 egosh [n=Miranda@212.106.50.56] has joined #lisp 19:23:51 drewc, true. 19:24:05 that said, as users of modern lisp, we should strive to jump past maclisp-style.. closures exist and are cheap.. use them! 19:24:21 maclisp-style is WITH-* then? 19:25:37 i suppose .. i've not written much maclisp code... but 'functional' programming is a lot easier with lexical closures, with-foo makes sense if you have macros but not closures, but as many users of languages without macros point out, call-with-foo serves the same purpose. 19:25:50 *nod* 19:26:32 Thanks for the info, drewc! 19:26:43 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:26:49 *drewc* is happy to spew his particular brand 19:27:11 I don't adhere to any particular school, and I enjoy learning from the best. 19:27:22 hell, i'm using cc-let* as an example of a good macro ... 19:27:28 but i'm probably wrong. 19:27:40 Avi added call/cc to smalltalk without needing macros 19:28:06 because the stack is first-class, and like everything else in st, an object. 19:28:08 you're definitely wrong by your own lights; cc-let* is a purely syntactic transformation that could be call-with-binding 19:28:26 you might want to think about why it's nevertheless a useful macro to have 19:28:42 *p_l* will simply dustoff his maclisp tape images 19:28:51 drewc: do you have a link to that? 19:28:58 tombom: to what? 19:29:06 call/cc in smalltalk 19:29:32 tombom: see SeaSide 19:29:39 ok thanks 19:30:32 Krystof: you've managed to make my point better than i can.. now i just need to figure out what my point was. 19:30:32 for what it's worth, I don't buy drewc's characterization of "modern" lisp; there are perfectly good languages where you use closures for everything, but they don't feel like a "modern lisp" to me 19:31:04 your point seems to be "dogma is more important than practicality" 19:31:42 and "programmer flexibility is more important than efficient implementability" 19:31:55 fwiw, i don't completely buy most of what i'm saying, but that's certainly not what i meant :P 19:32:25 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.88.5] has quit [] 19:33:05 as an example of a macro of awesomeness, I give you SETF 19:33:30 I think it's always going to be hard to make a care for the "necessity" of macros by their nature. A skeptic can always point to an expansion of a particular macro and suggest that it's more clear. I think the benefits arise more from an environment of macros rather than any particular one. 19:33:47 and then if that's not enough, I give you defmacro defgeneric* 19:34:17 where defgeneric* is not some lame "here is a way to save some O so burdensome keyword args that would actually make my code _clearer_ if I could bother to type them" 19:34:39 tmh: a trick I learned for avoiding blowing away /dev/sdb (or whatever) by accident is to write your command starting with #, then delete it after you've eyeballed the result 19:34:46 but the mcclim mildly magical (setf values)-like thing 19:35:35 mega1 / jsnell: do you remember discussing (maybe a year ago?) some code that was compiled differently depending on nothing that we could find? 19:36:03 nope 19:36:08 no 19:36:32 sorry Krystof, you need to get better lackeys :-( 19:36:44 or better search terms 19:36:45 yes, my memory is like a sieve 19:37:00 *tic* gets the popcorn and awaits drewc's strike 19:37:14 I mention this because the pack / maphash fix seems to have fixed the bignum ecx/edx permutation too 19:37:40 and you want another test case? 19:37:55 tic: i actually agree with Krystof for the most part. 19:38:06 -!- ejs [n=eugen@166-81-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:38:29 dabd [n=dabd@85.139.96.245] has joined #lisp 19:39:02 mega1: well, just mild interest wondering whether all this work might end up being worthwhile 19:39:09 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 19:39:10 -!- dabd [n=dabd@85.139.96.245] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:39:19 drewc, aww. :( 19:39:32 hmm... I don't see how the maphash thing would affect something compiled with the target 19:39:33 tic: those were all good examples of macros .. none were just 'changing syntax' or trivially wrapping existing constructs (assuming i know what was meant by DEFGENERIC*). 19:39:33 how far is it? src/code/*.lisp is done? 19:39:58 mega1: not quite. I have some floating point stuff to deal with 19:40:01 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-46-30-114.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:40:17 since the iteration order of sbcl's maphash is essentially the insertion order 19:40:17 drewc: ah but I think that cc-let* is a good macro even if you don't 19:40:23 hah. 19:40:25 tic: you won't see me arguing against LET either :) 19:40:46 Krystof: :D 19:41:00 jsnell: I seem to remember there was some seemingly unrelated compiler modification under discussion 19:41:09 something like that might alter the ir2 block order or similar 19:41:11 drewc, what, replace it with lambdas? that's just silly. :) 19:41:57 mega1: but I'm down to 5 files in src/code/*.lisp that are compiled differently 19:41:59 tic: i had to pre-emptively strike at that one before someone used it as an example against me :P 19:42:03 -!- fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-47-42.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:42:20 drewc, you're a skilled opponent, indeed. I see you have much experience. 19:42:49 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-025-060.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:18 tic: i learned from the best.. nobody can argue against lisp features better than lispers! 19:43:55 drewc, isn't the self-hatred of Lispers very interesting? I find it more so in Lisp than other languages with a similar community, say CPython and Ruby. 19:44:00 mega1: I anticipate that most of the rest will be easy stuff like normalising gensyms and not hard ones like diagnosing fixnum leaks 19:44:02 but I could be wrong 19:44:33 self-hatred? 19:44:35 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-21.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:44:38 I loath Python and Ruby programmers doubly for their lack of self-loathing. 19:44:40 hating other lispers? 19:44:45 guaqua, no, the language! 19:44:50 Quadrescence: no, hating lisp! 19:44:53 hefner, see! all the hatred. 19:44:57 hefner: at least the rubyers, yes :) 19:45:00 kpreid: Yeah, that's a very good idea. I've barely avoided total disaster. I'm almost to the point of restoring my home directory. 19:45:03 tic: satisfaction leads to complacency 19:45:04 sorry, that was for guaqua 19:45:07 KingThomasV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:12 drewc, tic: okay :) 19:45:17 sounds better 19:45:19 how did he do that backwards q! :) 19:45:20 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-72-131.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:45:37 Krystof: good to see people go for not-so-sexy stuff 19:45:37 it's not really backwards is it.. 19:45:44 dlowe1, that's a bad thing, I guess. 19:46:00 *guaqua* chuckles every time someone mixes up g and q, its the purpose of the nick 19:46:14 dlowe1, not that it actually matters! the spec is frozen, so what are you going to do? :) 19:46:23 hefner: anybody who doesn't hate their langauge of choice doesn't know their langauge of choice? 19:46:37 tic: I wrote a front-end that I :use instead of :cl 19:46:41 tic: now _that_ is the right argument for macros. 19:46:50 or hasn't programmed in it for long enough 19:47:01 drewc, with-x3j11? 19:47:13 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090402 if somone cares 19:47:19 tic: (:use futurecl) :) 19:47:27 drewc, ahhh 19:47:43 drewc, from __future__ import foo, so hey, even the non-self-loathing crowd got that. 19:48:01 tic: we _can_ change the syntax.. this is a good thing. 19:48:08 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 19:48:17 drewc, but when is it a good thing? 19:48:23 any particular use of that ability is subject to extreme scrutiny. 19:48:40 drewc, obviously most cases were just bogus because we have let-over-lambda and/or named functions. 19:48:43 drewc, argh! 19:48:46 tic: one time is always right: When you want to be an ass to whoever gets the code later 19:49:17 p_l, I write the code, I maintain it. Problem solved. I shall therefore rename all symbols in CL to their opposites. 19:49:45 i'm waiting for the ftes 19:49:46 tic: and thus we have conclusion that Lisp is much better at C++'s goal than C++ itself :D 19:49:50 p_l: if you never plan to release your code publically, that is a perfectly good attitude. 19:49:58 sorry, that was for tic 19:50:12 drewc, yeah, I wasn't kidding actually. 19:50:19 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:50:25 i have a lisp-like langauge that i write throw-away code it. 19:50:33 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:50:43 however, none of those constructs will ever make it anywhere near code that i expect others to use. 19:51:25 i know many lispers who have reader macros and the like that they use for shorthand at the REPL... 19:51:48 but none of that makes it into source control. 19:52:06 for example? 19:52:14 drewc, true. 19:53:00 guaqua: @ #L(print $1) '(1 2 3) 19:53:48 madness 19:53:56 they should learn dvorak 19:54:22 expands to (let ((gensym '(1 2 3))(map (type-of gensym) (lambda ($1) (print $1)) gensym))) 19:54:24 (and customize their keyboard layouts, it's way easier) 19:54:30 been on it since '98, guaqua :) 19:54:46 drewc, how bizarre. 19:54:56 tic: i tried to make it as unreadable as perl 19:55:05 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:55:06 drewc, is the @ part of that? 19:55:18 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 19:55:27 tic: yeah, it's a reader macro that expands to the MAP 19:55:27 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 19:55:39 drewc, right. soo bizarre. 19:55:45 (actually GENERIC-MAP in the real implementation) 19:56:19 tic: i find it really useful when doing throwaway text processing 19:56:44 ejs [n=eugen@21-162-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:00 drewc, sure! it's still bizarre. I should write a bunch of reader macros myself, as I tend to start up a terminal running Python because it has convenient syntax for many things. 19:57:07 tic: http://paste.lisp.org/display/29960 19:57:43 muhaha 19:58:02 drewc, do you have the @ and #L code available somewhere? I'd like to inject my .sbclrc with some fresh nutrients. 19:58:33 (and also to learn something, hopefully) 19:59:08 tic: i long ago lost the code.. i now just use plain ol chatty verbose CL for these types of things... 19:59:21 however, #L is in arnesi 19:59:39 drewc, ah, thanks. 19:59:40 and @ is a fairly trivial reader macro. 19:59:55 if it's just map, then yeah. 20:00:10 (he said) 20:00:22 it ends up as MAP + a few tricks IIRC. 20:01:54 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:04:04 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:04:51 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 20:05:05 benny` [n=benny@i577A1BC1.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:05:33 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 20:06:48 heh, that's the first time i've read Jeremy 20:06:56 's slides 20:07:19 he makes most of my points much better than i could have :) 20:07:37 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:10:13 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:10:15 Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.55.94] has joined #lisp 20:10:59 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 20:11:46 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:12:31 drewc: "Macros are for dirty hippies" is very compelling 20:13:06 dlowe1: jeremy said that? maybe he lost his hippie look so that he could make this point! 20:14:13 dlowe1: can't help but agree with that one. 20:15:14 ... then what is there for not-really-hippie-but-very-trigger-happy? 20:16:06 p_l: guns 20:16:43 lol 20:16:44 perhaps he's a reasonably clean hippie 20:16:54 not according to the slide with his picture on it 20:17:00 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:17:14 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:46 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-72-131.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:17:47 josemanuel [n=josemanu@166.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:17:47 well, you know, considering who those MIT types have as a resident hippie higyene reference... 20:17:57 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-72-131.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:18:50 cmm: RMS? 20:19:06 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:19:30 p_l: so they say 20:19:49 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-72-131.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:20:14 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A090C.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:20:58 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 20:22:15 -!- ejs [n=eugen@21-162-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:23:05 cmm: based on rather credible source, volunteering your room to host RMS during a conference is a *bad* idea 20:23:29 p_l: for extra fun, invite capt'n crunch, too 20:23:34 and no, not because of hygiene 20:23:47 p_l: social hygiene, i'd say 20:23:51 the two poor students I heard of begged everyone to take them 20:24:14 they couldn't survive his music listening habits 20:24:31 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:32 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:03 extroverts are annoying 20:25:57 hahaha 20:26:15 p_l, hefner: wow it works, "clbuild is great", thanks! :-D 20:27:32 [sorry to disturb the conversation] 20:27:46 cmm: depends on the extrovert in question. 20:28:31 stepnem: you are more ontopic than we were 20:28:41 p_l: some are more house-trained than others, but deep underneath all of them are annoying 20:29:36 cmm: Well, I won't meet the kind of extrovert I'm looking for, but for my own sanity (rather remains of) I hope for one :P 20:30:13 ah, that :) 20:31:20 -!- benny` is now known as benny 20:31:47 learning to be extrovert at times is a valuable tool in your social toolbox 20:32:45 extrovercy(?) is overrated, anyway. you get more work done if you don't spend so much time on irc =) 20:33:04 of course. but it's bloody exhausting and we get to bitch about it afterwards 20:34:10 The trick not to think but just talk. 20:34:22 huh, interesting. I might have fewer files differing between clisp and sbcl hosts, but the clisp-built cold core has stopped working again 20:34:27 MORE WORK NEEDED 20:34:49 -!- KingThomasV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 20:35:24 tcr: uh, bad idea for the slower-witted among us (like yours truly) 20:35:45 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-72-131.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:35:52 tcr: I tend to experience infodumps, but they definitely don't help social toolbox :-) 20:36:27 tcr: as your talking speed can become seriously higher than your thinking speed and you end up saying something awkward 20:36:35 I found out that I'm introvert when I was sixteen or seventeen, I worked on it since. And at times, I'm not even sure whether I'm still. :) 20:36:36 I'm striving toward talking less, though 20:37:10 Well, do not talk yourself, ask questions 20:37:19 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:23 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:37:23 But we're off-topic. And I'm afk. 20:37:28 heh 20:37:37 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 20:38:12 *cmm* is quite an extrovert when drunk, though 20:38:16 jrockway_ [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 20:38:31 ok, sorry about the off-topic 20:38:44 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:41:26 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 20:41:28 -!- jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:41:48 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:45:45 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4599.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:51 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:47:57 -!- jrockway_ is now known as jrockway 20:52:43 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@66.166.232.134] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:53:34 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 20:58:15 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:04:16 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 21:11:44 -!- jocke_ [n=jocke@witychu.khg.sgsnet.se] has quit ["Lämnar"] 21:12:09 -!- davatk [n=user@96.241.75.158] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:12:56 davatk [n=user@96.241.75.158] has joined #lisp 21:16:43 -!- deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:16:59 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:17:48 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:19 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 21:20:21 -!- dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:20:45 <_3b> drewc, hefner: any suggestions for nicer ways to do define-binary-class stuff? 21:21:22 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:22:09 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 21:25:02 _3b: my stance is that unpacking fields into a class is clumsy and inefficient, and everything ought to be done with accessors on top of the original data vector 21:25:16 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-118-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:25:26 <_3b> heh, that sounds painful when the original data vector is compressed :p 21:25:44 <_3b> or stateful 21:26:06 <_3b> (which is what i'm currently pondering how to hack into the pcl code) 21:26:09 -!- davatk [n=user@96.241.75.158] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:26:23 well, you said it. define-binary-class doesn't help you either. 21:26:48 <_3b> well, with define-binary-class, i just need to add some way to optionally bind some specials during parsing 21:26:58 _3b: i'd much prefer MOP over the macro. 21:27:02 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-201-204.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:27:07 <_3b> with accessors into the vector, i need to parse everything up to the value i want 21:27:34 how do you avoid that? can you seek in your compressed stream? 21:27:44 <_3b> drewc: any more details? or should i just go read some more amop 21:28:13 <_3b> hefner: i mean the stateful parsing part, the compression was mostly not serious, since i just decompress it anyway :) 21:28:45 davatk [n=user@96.241.75.158] has joined #lisp 21:30:00 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 21:30:11 <_3b> also, vector accessors aren't as useful for creating/inserting data, which i need as well 21:30:15 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 21:30:44 _3b: well, i actually agree with hefner in this case, but the basics are that the slot vector could be your binary vector, and slot accesses are accessors into your vector 21:31:19 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:31:23 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:37 <_3b> also, do you advocate the same strategy for things like xml? 21:31:43 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:32:08 i parse XML to DOM, because that's what i'm familiar with. If i don't need dom i use xmls 21:32:10 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:12 drewc: "actually"? is it that astonishing? ;) 21:32:35 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:33:00 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:33:02 <_3b> so why is text worth deserializing, but binary data not? 21:33:03 hefner: not at all, just that i didn't want to promote a mop approach over yours 21:33:13 anyway, I haven't recently dealt with binary data more complicated than a TCP packet, so that's my bias. 21:33:20 *drewc* has got to go work on his boat. 21:33:24 *_3b* has very annoying binary data tm :( 21:35:51 the horizon of my ambitions does not exceed fiddling with bitfields 21:36:13 <_3b> chunks that parse differently depending on enclosing chunks, chunks with fields that change the field sizes of later chunks, etc 21:37:20 -!- davatk [n=user@96.241.75.158] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:37:30 davatk [n=user@96.241.75.158] has joined #lisp 21:38:09 I'm skeptical there's a magical declarative solution that's worth the trouble 21:38:39 <_3b> define-binary-class is working for most of it, it just lacks flexibility 21:39:01 my macro-generated binary accessors take optional offset fields, and I navigate through variable size structures with code. 21:39:29 <_3b> though i am worried about calling generic functions N levels deep for each field 21:40:20 (some day I'll have to make an all-singing, all-dancing version as a "library", when I work out how best to make it flexible without losing efficiency) 21:40:29 <_3b> 32 bit fixed point reader calls 32 bit signed calls generic signed calls generic unsigned, etc 21:41:03 <_3b> possibly it is (or could be) inlined though 21:41:11 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:44:52 <_3b> guess i'll just keep hacking define-binary-class for now, and put it on my list of 'things to clean up once i've implemented enough to understand the requirements' 21:46:15 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0CB6F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:33 or once you find your program spends 95% of its time there, converting things back and forth needlessly and instantiating objects that get thrown away a moment later 21:46:37 =D 21:47:47 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.34.47] has joined #lisp 21:48:33 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 21:49:06 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:51:21 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:53:13 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:57:27 speaking of conveniences... I find myself wanting to use this: (defun getter (indicator) (lambda (x) (getf x indicator))) but surely there's a better name than getter, if not a better way altogether. 21:58:24 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 21:59:35 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:39 <_3b> hefner: yeah, or that... though i mostly only need speed on writing, which i think tends to be a bit more direct 21:59:50 nuntius [n=nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:29 slyrus: [getf _ indicator] =p 22:00:47 -!- mulander [n=user@nat-4.interq.pl] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:01:03 hefner: cute 22:03:18 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C68D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:04:12 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:04:50 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:59 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:15 nodie [n=plat0n@112.Red-79-145-181.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:30 -!- nodie [n=plat0n@112.Red-79-145-181.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 22:08:47 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:49 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:09:51 bobf_ [n=bob@host81-158-237-48.range81-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:11:57 -!- nuntius is now known as dherring 22:12:35 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@wireless92.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:14:57 in case the minders of the topic feel like it, SBCL 1.0.27 should now be officially official. 22:15:36 gonzojive [n=red@171.66.80.22] has joined #lisp 22:15:48 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:16:14 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:16:17 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@84.131.198.178] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:19:26 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 22:20:11 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:20:41 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:55 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:22:03 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:23 -!- fiveop_ [n=fiveop@pD9E6C3BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 22:24:54 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@166.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 22:36:23 aww I just built .26 yesterday :0 22:37:08 I initially thought to do the release yesterday, but was concerned people might think it a joke. 22:37:09 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:37:20 how long to propagate to git/ 22:37:23 ? 22:37:36 I couldn't say. 22:37:42 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.34.47] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:37:49 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-180-228.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:37:49 *p_l* still runs 1.0.12.42 22:38:00 0.9.16 :) 22:38:29 this will be your first release with the digits "27" side-by-side like that 22:38:33 newlisper: any particular reason to use that old a version? :D 22:38:48 newlisper: how odd, I happen to have the same old version around somewhere. 22:38:58 p_l: Old Debian image, along with apt-get thinking that's the latest. 22:39:13 p_l: One of these days, I should try actually compiling it on my own. 22:39:37 newlisper: distro packages are only useful to get some initial lisp to run clbuild :) 22:39:39 newlisper: if it works for you, never mind the naysayers. 22:39:48 ;-) 22:40:17 Actually, ever since I found out in the last week that someone got ECL to run on the iPhone... and I just bought an iPhone... I've been thinking about focusing on that. 22:40:42 jyujin [n=jyujin@d221-88-81.commercial.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:24 newlisper: SBCL gives a nicer development environment IMHO, so a combined ECL/SBCL devenc might be a good idea 22:41:33 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB"] 22:41:45 p_l: Ever since I found LineEdit, I've enjoyed SBCL. 22:42:11 just got it .27 from git a moment ago now, S11001001 .. ( git://sbcl.boinkor.net/sbcl.git ) 22:42:22 newlisper: LineEdit? 22:42:55 p_l: Allows me an experience 1000 times better than trying to do a clunky rlwrap. 22:43:11 newlisper: why not just SLIME? 22:43:16 p_l: It is more like the interactive clisp experience. 22:43:25 p_l: Because then I would have to deal with emacs. :) 22:43:39 what about ABLE? .. (i haven't tried it) 22:43:53 or that eclipse thingy? 22:44:02 *p_l* won't touch eclipse-based IDE unless forced 22:44:27 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@141.157.248.6] has joined #lisp 22:44:30 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:32 p_l: And I am disappointed with emacs mainly in the stupid way it deals with file buffers. 22:44:38 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:44:50 p_l: That is -- it loads the entire file into memory, and woe be unto you if you want to open a file larger than 2 GB. 22:45:14 hmmm... Will have to try that 22:45:24 ... I've yet to see a 2 GB lisp source file. 22:45:33 p_l: Let me qualify that slightly... On a 32-bit system. :) 22:45:37 uiiiiiiii 22:45:38 *p_l* proceeds to look for a big enough file 22:45:40 i found the mop 22:45:43 *sabber* 22:45:46 lol 22:45:51 p_l: Download Human Chromosome 2. 22:46:05 newlisper: btw, Emacs manages file buffers as a list of lines 22:46:10 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-144-19.vologda.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 22:46:21 p_l: Yeah, I think that is a fair idea... it's just that it loads the whole list. 22:46:24 some of the binary editing mode might help you with giant files :) 22:46:43 p_l: Oh, you have my attention now. What options do I pass? I can try that right now. 22:46:45 also, it's not a good idea to open such a file in an editor :D 22:47:00 p_l: Good idea or not, vim can do it, and I sometimes need to look for or search for some things. :) 22:47:19 newlisper: for such cases, I've got my trusty old unix toolbox :) 22:48:19 -!- jyujin [n=jyujin@d221-88-81.commercial.cgocable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:48:25 Beket [n=rty@ppp206-239.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:48:29 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:48:34 smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has joined #lisp 22:48:37 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 22:49:02 damn, /dev/sda1 "not readable". Time to look for another 22:49:10 -!- aggieben [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:49:41 "maximum buffer size exceeded" >_> 22:49:46 That's the one. 22:50:30 Did you try in binary? 22:50:43 I'm curious if that works. I might be able to live with that. 22:50:56 Opening 2 GB files isn't my normal MO. :) 22:51:16 jyujin [n=jyujin@d221-88-81.commercial.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:52 I tried opening a 2850MB file 22:53:23 <_3b> editing binaries in emacs is probably worse, since hexl-mode tends to expand it a bit :) 22:53:40 _3b: Unless it pages. 22:54:06 *_3b* has never seen it do so 22:54:13 :( 22:54:15 nope, it doesn't have paging... now 22:54:41 <_3b> though i'd be interested if you know of a smarter binary editing mode, i've wanted one a number of times 22:55:13 I still consider that for giant files you should use a special-purpose app (you could have elisp code manage buffer and modify file through an external app) 22:55:42 p_l: I understand. I have one other issue. 22:56:01 =3= 22:56:28 care to elaborate? 22:56:34 Sorry, coworker. :) 22:56:38 Back, though... 22:56:52 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has quit ["Bye!"] 22:56:54 So yes, I could whine that vim can open such files and let me do what I need and emacs can't... 22:56:57 did I miss the part where we went from "Why don't you use Emacs for Lisp?" to "Why not use Emacs for all possible computational tasks?" 22:57:29 But my other whine -- and it is a whine -- is that I am not sure I will ever have the same speed. 22:58:05 (1) I must refrain from changing keybindings because I do not want to get used to a custom set -- I have other coworkers to work with with there mostly default keybindings. 22:58:16 newlisper: Well, I certainly recommend it for Lisp coding. I wouldn't dare to force you to use Emacs for everything, and there's ViPER 22:58:34 There is definitely not ViPER. :) Any vimmer will tell you what a load of garbage that is... 22:58:34 BUT 22:58:46 That means nobody's really tried to make a decent vim-like mode. 22:58:49 I think one can. 22:59:06 So it just boils down to big files. I thought I had another issue a while back in my exploration. 22:59:16 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:59:41 I've compensated with the screen technique in vim with an sbcl in another window. 22:59:57 (I'm a big fan of using screen and do a certain amount of remote work) 23:00:00 newlisper: I guess they probably decided it's not worth it, for whatever reasons they might have (I'm happily using Emacs for my day to day work, nano for small work, Vi when I encounter it, ed way too often...) 23:00:43 oh, and netbeans when I have to work with Java 23:00:45 blx [i=krille@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:01:49 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-72-131.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 23:03:09 jao [n=jao@obfw.oblong.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:30 krueter: I didn't mean to ignore ya... "Why not use Emacs for all possible computational tasks?" Heheh, doesn't it have its own web browser, etc etc? I like it for a lot of things; I think when I gave it a serious go -- including customizations in my .emacs file and adding a few new features for my use -- I was looking for an excuse not to use it. The large file issue seemed ridiculous to me. That alone put emacs on the same level as the original No 23:04:58 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:05:29 newlisper: Well, it doesn't have the browser really builtin... given current synchronous, non-threaded model, it would be a disaster... 23:05:37 there's a pretty big difference between 2 GB and 64 KB. 23:05:41 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:43 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.240.40.82] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:07:47 FSF Emacs put limit on 32bit machines at 256MB 23:08:03 p_l: I think gnu emacs has it at 2 GB. 23:08:14 p_l: Basically, half unsigned longint 23:08:28 newlisper: I took that value out of manual 23:08:45 p_l: Ah, that's probably more updated than the bug report/discussion thread on the topic... 23:08:46 "Note, however, that Emacs cannot visit files that are larger than the maximum Emacs buffer size, which is around 256 megabytes on 32-bit machines (see Buffers)." 23:09:52 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host143.190-138-165.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Client Quit] 23:10:00 still, FSF Emacs isn't the best thing, but I guess that might be my prejudice against FSF 23:10:02 Tordek [n=tordek@host143.190-138-165.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 23:10:18 p_l: I am open to recommendations. :) 23:10:50 -!- antifuchs changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.27, Hunchentoot & Drakma 1.0.0, usocket 0.4.1, ABCL 0.13, cl-net-snmp 5.19, yason-0.1, trivial-features 0.4, CFFI 0.10.3, series 2.2.10. CMUCL 19f. 23:10:57 kreuter: yay, release (: 23:13:15 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:15:36 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.23.116] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:15:43 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B506.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:15:52 -!- newlisper [n=wschroed@128.252.233.244] has left #lisp 23:16:22 newlisper: nothing better right now. ViM, FSF Emacs from CVS, old style *nix utils, nano, ed. Throw into pot, add spice, boil till preferred consistency. Serve at preferred temp... 23:16:45 how can you store pointers to objects in different hashtables so as if you change one gethashe'd object, the other change as well? 23:18:29 -!- gonzojive [n=red@171.66.80.22] has quit [] 23:19:57 -!- Beket [n=rty@ppp206-239.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:20:43 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:20:48 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 23:22:40 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:23:12 -!- Eleanore [n=el@c213-100-35-238.swipnet.se] has quit ["aeou"] 23:23:34 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-f4ec32cb53465b49] has joined #lisp 23:25:42 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:26:03 blx: you do precisely that. 23:26:24 any Lispworks or Allegro users about? 23:26:58 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl14-83-76.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:27:00 blx: hashes store pointers to the objects, not copies, so if you have a reference to an object in multiple hash tables, they go to the very same object 23:27:05 kreuter: allegro here 23:27:40 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 23:28:40 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:45 kreuter pasted "echo-stream check" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77956 23:28:55 antifuchs: could you tell me what that returns on Allegro? 23:29:05 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl14-83-76.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:29:33 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl14-83-76.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:29:44 in a moment (getting my laptop) 23:29:52 ah no rush 23:30:02 thanks 23:30:37 nurv101` [n=askmefor@bl14-83-76.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:31:45 "bar" 23:31:54 thanks 23:31:57 that's 8.1 running on osx i386 23:32:25 same with 8.1 express on linux 23:32:32 -!- dherring is now known as nuntius 23:32:52 yeah. SBCL and CMUCL are the odd ones out. 23:32:58 doh 23:33:07 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl14-83-76.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:33:08 -!- nurv101` [n=askmefor@bl14-83-76.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:34:01 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["I fear that I must depart for now."] 23:34:51 antifuchs: how do i then manipulate the object, if i (setf (gethash ... it only changes hashtable assignment it seems 23:35:12 yeah, you use accessors for the fields in the object. depends on what you have stored there 23:35:25 atm a plist 23:35:32 (setf (some-slot-in-a-class-you-defined (gethash ...)) some-value) ; works 23:36:28 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-15484.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:36:55 also, (setf (get :some-key (gethash ...)) some-value) ; to alter the plist 23:37:35 oh wait, you need getf probably 23:37:42 yep 23:38:34 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:41 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [""Nichts mehr.""] 23:39:26 -!- Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.55.94] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:41:31 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:42:15 -!- cads [n=max@adsl-154-105-103.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:14 so, setf getf it is. hope that helps (: 23:44:36 antifuchs: yep. thank you 23:45:07 you're welcome. good night 23:51:31 sadsadasd [n=asdasd@ppp206-239.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:51:40 -!- sadsadasd [n=asdasd@ppp206-239.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:51:56 plan9 [n=stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has joined #lisp 23:51:58 egosh262 [n=Miranda@212.106.37.80] has joined #lisp 23:52:11 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:19 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:54:38 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:52 -!- egosh [n=Miranda@212.106.50.56] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]