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What's your secret?""] 00:01:54 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:02:18 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16AAEF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:02:56 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-129-245.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:04 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:05:04 -!- cipher [n=cipher@pool-173-48-136-239.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:07:56 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-10-201.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:08:57 cipher [n=cipher@pool-173-48-136-239.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:42 -!- mrSpec [n=SomeOne@88.208.105.1] has quit ["c Ya!"] 00:10:51 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 00:10:59 when you get a slot-value from an object where the slot is not initialized, this might be meaningful 00:11:22 a) make sure your code initializes the slot to some useful value 00:11:49 b) provide/use an error handler to catch that error and handle it 00:12:48 for example if you have a slot that should contain a numeric value 00:13:08 (1+ (slot-value foo 'x)) 00:13:30 there initializing the slot to NIL by default is worse than letting it unbound 00:14:04 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@80.250.159.240] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:14:06 in the unbound case, you can set the slot in the handler and continue, getting rid of the unbound slot 00:15:07 if you set the slot to nil by default error handling may give a numeric value to the 1+ function, but can't set the slot 00:15:07 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:15:23 (easily) 00:15:31 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:52 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-143-170.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:18:54 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:20:59 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:21:49 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:53 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-118-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:37 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:27:25 -!- cipher [n=cipher@pool-173-48-136-239.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:29:14 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 00:31:45 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:17 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:34:41 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-219-94.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:36:23 cipher [n=cipher@pool-173-48-136-239.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:45 drewc: the file demo/demo.lisp mentioned in the ucw getting started thing appears to be missing 00:37:47 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@209-161-224-54.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 00:39:07 has anyone worked with cl-facebook? 00:39:23 I'm trying to find some practical projects to learn on 00:41:28 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@209-161-224-54.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 00:41:46 HG` [n=wells@203-109-202-78.static.ihug.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:00 -!- HG`` [n=wells@203-109-202-78.static.ihug.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:42:17 -!- p_l [i=plasek@89.248.166.201] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:45:11 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:11 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:51:31 lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:38 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:50 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-129-245.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:53:20 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-238-179.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:58:48 Tordek [n=tordek@190.226.113.35] has joined #lisp 01:03:01 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:36 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:05:14 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:06:39 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:17 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 01:10:39 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0F6E.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:16:44 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@212.1.228.48] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:27:27 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 01:30:17 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 01:30:26 Greetings! 01:39:32 -!- HG` [n=wells@203-109-202-78.static.ihug.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:41:33 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:44:18 GrayMagiker [n=steve@97-123-156-101.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:35 HG` [n=wells@203-109-202-78.static.ihug.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:12 hi tmh 01:56:16 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 01:57:52 Hey LiamH. 01:58:47 are you doing linear algebra in CL? 02:00:27 LiamH: I am, at this exact moment. Except, it's not my library, it's a response to a Lisp Forum post. There is so much wrong in the post, I had to reply, except that now I think I should spend more time on my beer and less on the response. :-) 02:01:01 Seriously, I am working on a fully CL linear algebra library. 02:01:09 Of course. More time on the beer will make the response better 02:01:29 Understood. Just curious if you've taken a look at GSLL's linear algebra functions. 02:01:50 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-84-44-168-52.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:03:08 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 02:04:11 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 02:04:45 LiamH: Not in detail. My goal is for a little different organization than I've seen in any of the foreign function based libraries. I'm really spending a lot of effort on interface and correctness. Once the interface is fairly stable, though, I'd like to use something like GSLL for the backend. The fully CL version is basically a reference implementation. 02:05:11 greendingbat [n=greendin@pool-71-112-82-228.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:15 hey all 02:05:23 my friend and i want to learn common lisp 02:05:27 tmh: interesting 02:05:32 I have no interest in performance, at the moment. I want a cohesive interface. 02:05:54 where could we get some starting tools to get us programming? 02:06:03 LiamH: Are you looking to recruit some help? 02:06:14 greendingbat: What OS? 02:06:23 tmh: windows :( 02:07:53 tmh: I have over the years implemented some of what GSL has (not necessarily linear algebra). I have been thinking about how to rewrite my "higher level" stuff to merge smoothly with GSLL. It's not easy. My interest is not so much recruiting help (though that's always nice), but in knocking around ideas on how to make a coherent whole. 02:08:26 greendingbat: I'd recommend getting a personal/evaluation version of one of the commercial versions. 02:08:54 tmh: where could i find those? 02:09:43 LiamH: just a minute, phone 02:09:59 np 02:10:40 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:06 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-157-178.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:11:34 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:11:42 minion: tell greendingbat about lispworks 02:11:42 Question regarding throw and return-from. This two codes basically do the same thing, correct? http://paste.lisp.org/display/77736 02:11:43 greendingbat: please see lispworks: A non-free Common Lisp implementation with a decent GUI environment. http://www.cliki.net/lispworks 02:12:14 tmh: is that guy really your minion? like a bot? 02:12:29 greendingbat: everyone's minion 02:12:35 that's cool 02:12:40 minion: tell greendingbat about yourself 02:12:40 greendingbat: what's up? 02:12:49 greendingbat: That's mine! 02:12:54 greendingbat: just kidding :p 02:12:57 LiamH: I'm in the middle of a big revision, it should be done this week. I'd be more than happy to send you the draft documentation. 02:13:03 lol 02:13:07 lol 02:13:11 tmh: I'm interested. 02:13:18 where could i find LISP documentation? 02:13:34 such as manuals for beginners 02:13:50 minion: tell greendingbat about PCL 02:13:50 greendingbat: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 02:13:53 greendingbat: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/index.htm 02:14:46 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.204.210] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:15:18 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:15:45 LiamH: I'm getting close to completing the core interface, analogous to BLAS. Then, I'm going to start working on the LAPACK type stuff: linear solvers, eigensolvers, least square and SVD, expressed in terms of the core interface. I'm not implementing the BLAS/LAPACK interface, just using it as a guide. 02:16:11 hey, thanks you guys for all your help, i look forward to getting to some coding! 02:16:31 greendingbat: good luck! 02:16:37 LiamH: The interface is modelled after the ARRAY and SEQUENCE interface. 02:16:39 -!- greendingbat [n=greendin@pool-71-112-82-228.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:16:58 Re-post: This two codes basically do the same thing, correct? http://paste.lisp.org/display/77736 02:17:23 tmh: interesting. In porting GSL's BLAS interface, I decided that it was rather archaic; I think it was invented in the 70s to be efficient for the architecture of the time. These days with vectorizing processors I doubt it's any more efficient than a standard algebra. 02:17:27 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-137-77.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:17:47 <_3b> tomoyuki28jp: that seems to be the case 02:18:02 _3b: Thanks! 02:18:35 _3b: I took a loot at the mailing list archive of hunchentoot and I am currently implementing my own backtrace thing. 02:19:17 <_3b> tomoyuki28jp: note that you can't use the function in *return* once f1 returns, even if it is in another call to f1 02:19:40 LiamH: Yeah, I initially went down that road, trying to create a 1-to-1 correspondence, BLAS-to-CL. Luckily, I was reading some design philosophy stuff and became convinced that it would be better to create the correct interface and worry about performance second. So, I've made a real effort to make the interface consistent with how you would use ARRAY and/or SEQUENCES. 02:20:03 I'm 99% sure the performance is going to be horrendous. 02:20:17 _3b: I didn't know that. thanks for the info. 02:20:19 <_3b> and the 2 approaches behave differently with respect to nesting 02:21:52 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-157-178.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:21:58 BRB, beer run. 02:22:04 tmh: I wouldn't bet on that. I like the idea of the interface. Some of the stuff I developed over the years generalized arrays to have a compact way of avoiding explicit indices (like mapcar for lists). I'm now thinking that writing macros for iterate would be easier. 02:22:52 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-219-94.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:11 tmh: Have you seen this? http://repo.or.cz/w/cl-tuples.git I know nothing of it, but it is intriguing. The homepage is a placeholder though. 02:26:13 LiamH: I have some recurrent iteration idioms on matrices that I know need to be factored into a macro, but I can't quite get my head wrapped around the abstraction, so I just keep pounding them out. I have a DOVECTOR macro that is pretty handy and probably fairly obvious. 02:27:18 LiamH: I would send you a copy of the library tonight, except that you literally caught me in the middle of a huge revision. I'm getting to a point where I think some external review would be very useful. *looking at the link* 02:29:02 tmh: No problem. I'll send you a description of my rectangles at some point, you might find it interesting. The main drawback to it that I have found is the syntax is obscure enough that even I have to puzzle through it for a long time to use it. It would help immensely if I had a "macroexpand-some" function which I actually wrote in ACL years ago, but is not portable. 02:29:06 LiamH: a good BLAS is definitely superior to what you'll get with a regular compiler and naive/simple code on large enough inputs. 02:30:28 pkhuong: really? interesting. What I found was that GSL's BLAS is its own implementation, and doesn't use ATLAS or something like that even if that's installed. So I doubt that GSL's BLAS specifically would be all that good. 02:30:28 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:31:03 The interface is the same. That's the point of the BLAS. 02:31:10 pkhuong: All of my colleagues code in Fortran and swear by the Intel Fortran Math Kernel Library. Ultimately, BLAS/LAPACK are just interfaces. 02:31:27 pkhuong: Yes, I know. 02:32:17 2 noobish questions. How can I from a lisp program read info about a users environment, say from a file on the users local system. And how can I get/post over http? 02:32:46 minion: tell dtangren about drakma 02:32:47 dtangren: direct your attention towards drakma: Drakma is a fully-featured Common Lisp web client library that knows how to handle HTTP/1.1 chunking, persistent connections, re-usable sockets, SSL, continuable uploads, cookies, and other things. http://www.cliki.net/drakma 02:33:20 okay. I read about that. I didn't know if there was something simpler. 02:33:33 what about reading info about a users environment? 02:33:38 minion: tell dtangren about trivial-http 02:33:39 dtangren: direct your attention towards trivial-http: Ah, HTTP, the protocol we all love to re-implement. http://www.cliki.net/trivial-http 02:33:49 drakma is fairly simple. 02:33:50 snippyhollow [n=snippyho@212.116.219.91] has joined #lisp 02:34:26 It does have a fair number of dependencies if you don't use Lispworks, as I recall. 02:35:07 I am learning via a pre package beginners dist called ready lisp 02:35:51 trying to make an executable I can run via cmd line with clisp 02:36:15 LiamH: anyway, point was, the interface is probably still relevant, or at least effective. 02:36:20 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:36:43 learning a lot via http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 02:37:05 pkhuong: point taken, I was erroneous in my supposition. 02:37:11 pkhuong: Relevant enough that it was updated in 2000 by the BLAS Technical committee. The new interface covers F77, F90 and C. 02:37:24 It's not a huge change, though. 02:37:42 Actually, I think it's F95 02:37:58 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087D705.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:38:14 minion: port 02:38:14 port: ASDF port of clocc-port. http://www.cliki.net/port 02:38:15 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:38:32 dtangren: take a look at that for getenv 02:38:58 I assume that's what you mean by the user's environment. 02:39:12 yea 02:39:41 Well, I've lost the motivation to respond to that Lisp Forum post but been motivated to get back to my linear algebra library. I feel a little guilty for not participating in the forum's, though. Seems like an opportunity to evangelize CL. 02:39:52 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 02:40:12 tmh: you could vectorise it! 02:40:15 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:41:44 I'm already vectorizing beer,coding,IRC. There's just no room left for a forum response. 02:41:57 I was referring to the linalg lib. 02:42:04 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [""Nichts mehr.""] 02:42:05 actually for getting git info via 'git config --global {var}' 02:42:48 pkhuong: Yeah, but that goes against my current ethos, Interface and correctness first, performance second. 02:43:39 dtangren: then you want one of the port defs in run.lisp: run-prog, pipe-input, pipe-output 02:44:45 awesome. thanks :LiamH 02:44:53 np 02:45:05 LiamH: That tuples library only has a TODO file, not even documentation. As I write that, LISP-UNIT comes to mind. :-) I actually have some local commits, but don't want to push until I get the documentation updated. The time I had planned on doing that I spent on taxes. This week should be a productive week, though. Complete lisp-unit update, linalg revision and taxes. 02:46:00 tmh: Sounds good; no rush on the lisp-unit updates. I'd recommend treating taxes with a higher priority. 02:48:00 tmh: cl-tuples does have a lot of lisp files though, so it might be useful or at least insightful anyway. I know having no docs can make a package almost useless though. 02:48:58 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:49:40 LiamH: I like to at least see a README, if nothing else. A decent overview to give you some idea if it applies to what you're doing. 02:49:56 tmh: indeed 02:50:20 Again, no README in lisp-unit. I think I let that slide because it is an extension and people can at least get to the original for an idea of what it does. 02:51:45 Yes, I think you have a link to Riesback's page, so all the readme anyone needs is there and in the readme section of repo.or.cz. Which reminds me, I was going to update the cliki entry on lisp-unit. 02:56:05 Bah, put that off until I get the documentation committed. 02:56:52 procrastination will take care of that, but I don't see any reason to delay -- people are using it now without documentation 02:59:31 That's awesome that people are using it. How many? 03:01:36 You can't really tell with free software. But someone already thanked me when I announced it on my blog, and I know someone on the GSLL mailing list was interested in my extensions prior to your release, so I assume he has been using it. So there's two. Not counting GSLL of course. 03:02:06 That worries me a little, because I was thinking of a trivial change, changing the *EPSILON* parameter to *DELTA*. The delta terminology is more consistent with my references, and I can be slightly compulsive about those types of things. I understand, though, if that type of change is unacceptable. 03:03:15 -!- cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:03:41 cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has joined #lisp 03:04:00 Go ahead and change it. I change the GSLL interface all the time. I've made it pretty clear what my goals are (as lisp-natural an interface as possible) and that means as I randomly discover a better way to write the interface, I do so. I haven't "released" anything yet, when I do, I'll do those changes in a separate branch. 03:05:46 tmh: What's the parameter used for? 03:05:55 Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.105.37] has joined #lisp 03:06:54 tmh: If it's "minimum distinguishable difference between two values" (something commonly needed in a test suite), I'd leave it as epsilon. 03:07:13 LiamH: I think I will, then. 03:07:45 though as aja points out, epsilon is more customary in this context 03:08:37 I favor descriptive terms rather than symbol names anyway, but *minimum-distinguishable-difference-between-two-values* seems a bit lengthy. 03:09:01 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:09:09 aja: It is and that is why I initially named it epsilon. Except, while epsilon is the "minimum distinguishable difference between two values", the references all refer to delta as the acceptable difference. So, you calculate epsilon and make sure it's less than delta. 03:09:46 But, maybe that's more confusing than useful. 03:10:33 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.249.52] has joined #lisp 03:10:36 tmh: I've generally seen delta as "the difference between two values". So, in this case, you would calculate delta and make sure it's less than the specified epsilon (if so, the two values can be treated as "equal"). 03:10:43 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:49 tmh: A related term is "machine epsilon" which is the minimum distinguishable value for a particular type on a particular platform. In general, epsilon can never be less than the machine epsilon. 03:12:04 *aja* decides he's being pedantic, and shuts up to take some OCD meds. 03:13:38 aja: Pass the meds, I'm clearly suffering as well. You're convincing me that DELTA would create more confusion than necessary. The burden is either on me to perform the mental conversion from my references, or on everyone using it to convert. Me doing the conversion is much easier. EPSILON it stays. 03:14:37 tmh: If it helps, I believe junit uses epsilon in this context. 03:16:59 aja: That definitely helps. It doesn't make much sense to introduce an opportunity for errors in a UNIT TESTING library due to notational differences. People should be focusing on testing, not terminology. 03:23:02 If it helps, I favor leaving it as *epsilon* for the reasons discussed. But in general, you shouldn't be hesitant to change the interface if it improves the usefulness. If it worries you, create another branch, then merge it into master once you have documentation and can announce the change where it might be seen (in the commit message, at least). 03:23:55 -!- HG` [n=wells@203-109-202-78.static.ihug.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:26:57 inforichland [n=inforich@96-42-29-58.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:27:24 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-219-94.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:27:38 I'll leave it, it is a trivial change that would create confusion. 03:27:38 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.109] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:28:02 Besides, leaving is less work. Admittedly, it wasn't much work to begin with. 03:33:04 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-84-44-168-52.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 03:38:16 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-219-94.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:20 good night, talk to you later 03:43:30 Night. 03:43:40 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-68-239-77-4.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:43:49 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:43:57 -!- Thas [n=weechat@97-113-30-43.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:52:34 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:57:33 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:01:06 chpln [n=chpln@ppp121-45-157-74.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:53 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:10 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-219-94.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:10:25 -!- X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has left #lisp 04:13:45 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:13:47 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-99-33-30-8.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:27 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:14:52 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 04:15:03 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:18:51 yeoh [n=yeoh@60.51.82.127] has joined #lisp 04:21:08 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-200.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:22:47 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:26:12 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-106-128-220.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:27:53 drakej [n=Fred@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:22 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 04:33:51 -!- yeoh [n=yeoh@60.51.82.127] has left #lisp 04:41:52 -!- lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:42:00 -!- badkins [n=user@adsl-068-209-204-112.sip.rdu.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:48:51 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:49:39 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:50:22 mjonsson [n=mjonsson@66-234-42-80.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:01 Thas [n=weechat@97-113-30-43.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:11 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has left #lisp 05:07:08 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:17 myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-81-133.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 05:08:38 -!- Beket [n=rty@ppp206-239.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:08:53 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.249.52] has quit [] 05:10:09 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:29 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 05:20:02 -!- inforichland [n=inforich@96-42-29-58.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [] 05:20:15 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 05:27:35 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:27:44 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ff6a6376d30a257b] has joined #lisp 05:27:51 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ff6a6376d30a257b] has left #lisp 05:34:31 -!- myrkraverk`` [n=johann@157-157-81-133.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:52:18 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-26975afcba663e4f] has joined #lisp 05:52:31 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-26975afcba663e4f] has left #lisp 05:57:49 mornin' 05:58:50 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:03:48 mornin' 06:13:56 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:16:03 cownappa [n=agsdgi@c-24-1-168-169.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:45 -!- drwhen [n=d@c-69-139-19-235.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:25:38 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:36 kodama [n=sebastia@76-191-154-131.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:35 good evening 06:30:40 anyone around? 06:31:07 no? 06:31:09 *sniff* 06:31:12 :P 06:31:47 -!- kodama [n=sebastia@76-191-154-131.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has left #lisp 06:41:04 hi 06:41:13 hi 06:41:27 poor kodama, 06:41:45 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:41:48 yeah, bad timing 06:41:55 how is everyone 06:42:24 Doing good here, kinda tired and may turn in soon. yourself isismelting? 06:42:59 -!- joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:47:06 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 06:47:13 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 06:47:28 joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 06:48:17 -!- joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has left #lisp 06:50:02 if you're using (assoc 'var *db*) to get the associated variable in a database, do you have to write a recursive function or an iteration to collect all the possible associations? 06:50:08 or is there another function for that 06:51:33 I don't know. Not dealt with databases in lisp (am really a lisp newbie myself) 06:52:32 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:53:41 rvirding [n=rvirding@69-12-147-167.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:24 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.249.52] has joined #lisp 07:00:02 adrah [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:19 -!- cownappa [n=agsdgi@c-24-1-168-169.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:00:20 is there a reverse assoc function? 07:00:52 what would it do? 07:01:17 if elements of a list are (this thing-one thing-two thing-three) 07:01:40 then (rassoc 'thing-two a-list) would return THIS 07:01:59 clhs rassoc 07:02:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rassoc.htm 07:03:50 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.157.148] has joined #lisp 07:04:36 i don't understand - is rassoc part of common lisp? 07:06:35 the rassoc you described doesn't exist, but the rassoc there exists, and you can use it for this end. 07:07:17 oh i see - thank you! 07:08:20 -!- adrah is now known as adrah_ 07:08:31 -!- adrah_ is now known as adrah 07:09:56 -!- adrah [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Disconnecting"] 07:10:59 also: (find 'thing-two '((this thing-one thing-two thing-three)) :key #'third) 07:16:59 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 07:24:05 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:34 ejs [n=eugen@133-104-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:45 -!- _death [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:28:43 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-212-45.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:29:10 dto [n=user@68-187-212-45.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:30:23 -!- ejs [n=eugen@133-104-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:31:44 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-188-120.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:32:08 -!- xyblor [n=nik@206-248-134-42.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:33:25 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.249.52] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:34:08 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.249.52] has joined #lisp 07:34:47 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-63e9f1d972060cd8] has joined #lisp 07:34:54 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-63e9f1d972060cd8] has left #lisp 07:38:07 rvirding_ [n=rvirding@adsl-63-205-181-122.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:38 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-212-45.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:40:01 dto [n=user@68-187-212-45.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:40:36 ejs [n=eugen@133-104-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:58 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:41:23 sreeram_ [n=sreeram@59.92.85.4] has joined #lisp 07:45:05 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:45:13 -!- rvirding_ [n=rvirding@adsl-63-205-181-122.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.7/2009021910]"] 07:45:29 rvirding_ [n=rvirding@adsl-63-205-181-122.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:01 -!- divia [n=divia@adsl-99-33-30-8.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:55:34 -!- chrnybo [n=user@193.213.23.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:57:27 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.249.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:57:45 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 08:01:16 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.132.213] has joined #lisp 08:03:15 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-118-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:05:16 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@69-12-147-167.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:06:22 c|mell [n=cmell@nttkyo036048.tkyo.nt.ngn.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:07:29 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-38-118.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 08:07:57 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:08:02 -!- ejs [n=eugen@133-104-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:08:39 -!- GrayMagiker [n=steve@97-123-156-101.albq.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:11:10 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-62-219-13-180.dcenter.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:12:30 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:12:40 Thas1 [n=weechat@97-113-38-24.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:00 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-62-219-13-180.dcenter.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:18:54 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.131.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:21:56 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:22:30 -!- Thas [n=weechat@97-113-30-43.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:23:56 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:27:04 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:27:53 Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.162.157.148] has joined #lisp 08:34:57 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:43 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:35:49 -!- Thas1 is now known as Thas 08:37:04 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-177-220.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:38:54 -!- drakej [n=Fred@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:39:58 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-217.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:42:24 -!- Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.162.157.148] has quit ["Keyboard not found. Press F1 to continue."] 08:43:00 -!- rvirding_ is now known as rvirding 08:45:18 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 08:45:48 trac on c-l.net down again. can someone kick it please? 08:45:59 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-219-152-214.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:05 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.157.148] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:49:59 vy [n=user@88.230.186.228] has joined #lisp 08:54:38 divz [n=divz@125.99.120.106] has joined #lisp 08:54:59 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:57:48 hello I am new to lisp, can anyone guide me as how to compile & load xml-rpc asd 08:59:11 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 08:59:37 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:59:53 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-197-238-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:00:23 (load "/path/to/xml-rpc.asd") ; if this fails, (load "/path/to/asdf.lisp") first 09:00:33 (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :xml-rpc) 09:00:45 divz: (asdf-install:install :xml-rpc) should fetch the package and compile it. and (asdf:oos ...) should load it. 09:01:36 divz: In SBCL, you need to issue (require :asdf-install) first to be able to use ASDF-INSTALL, IIRC. 09:02:41 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-143-170.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:03:50 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 09:04:57 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:10:36 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@adsl-63-205-181-122.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 09:14:19 tombom [i=tombom@82.26.200.66] has joined #lisp 09:18:43 chris2 [n=chris@p5B169302.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:19:30 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.249.52] has joined #lisp 09:19:51 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-219-152-214.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:21:25 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:23:24 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 09:23:55 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-143-170.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:25:44 -!- e271 [i=[X9exUNd@panix3.panix.com] has left #lisp 09:25:54 e271 [i=[X9exUNd@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 09:28:48 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-177-220.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 09:31:05 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:34:31 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-177-220.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:35:06 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 09:35:24 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 09:36:06 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:36:13 -!- Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.105.37] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:36:41 Good morning. 09:36:52 -!- beach` is now known as beach 09:37:19 -!- sreeram_ [n=sreeram@59.92.85.4] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:37:28 lisp-newbie [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:37:35 benny` [n=benny@i577A1109.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:38:49 Am I right that a single atom is considered to be a legal s-expression by the reader? 09:38:51 Morning people. 09:39:16 tic: Good morning. 09:39:59 lisp-newbie, why do you ask? *curious* 09:40:17 tic: just trying to make sure I understand the concept fully 09:40:18 lisp-newbie: It appears to be so: (read-from-string "1.3e4") => 13000.0, 5 09:41:19 vy: right, I guess that's why you can type something like "foo" at the REPL and it will make it to the evalutor, which will consider it to be a self-evaluating object. 09:41:41 thank you 09:42:25 milanj [n=milan@93.86.115.220] has joined #lisp 09:44:48 -!- benny` is now known as benny 09:48:07 -!- seamus-android [n=user@cpc3-brig3-0-0-cust124.brig.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:48:10 seamus-android [n=user@cpc3-brig3-0-0-cust124.brig.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 09:53:35 vy: when I issue (asdf-install:install :xml-rpc) it asks me Install where? 09:53:36 1) System-wide install: System in /usr/lib/sbcl/site-systems/ Files in /usr/lib/sbcl/site/ 09:53:42 2) Personal installation: System in /home/divz/.sbcl/systems/ Files in /home/divz/.sbcl/site/ 09:53:47 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-111-132.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 09:54:20 vy: how do I proceed with this ? Could you please guide me with this 09:54:35 divz: choose 2) 09:55:35 choose clbuild 10:01:39 fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:05 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 10:02:13 H4ns1: herep 10:15:30 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:18:36 lisp-newbie: Yes, the external representation of an atom is acceptable to READ. However, there are atoms that don't have any external representations that can be parsed by READ. 10:19:44 crod [n=cmell@y192008.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 10:20:17 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-6584.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 10:20:21 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-111-132.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:20:54 -!- seamus-android [n=user@cpc3-brig3-0-0-cust124.brig.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:21:00 beach: For instance, like what? 10:21:10 beach: such atoms would then be unacceptable to the evaluator, right? 10:21:14 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@nttkyo036048.tkyo.nt.ngn.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:21:28 lisp-newbie: no, they would be fine for the evaluator 10:21:46 vy: most instances of standard-class don't have external representations 10:23:23 beach: is there a simple example of an atom with no external representation that would be acceptable to the evaluator? 10:23:51 vy: hash-tables 10:23:58 lisp-newbie: Yes, all Lisp objects are acceptable to the evaluator. Most of them are just self-evaluating. 10:24:07 lisppaste: #.(make-hash-table) 10:24:11 maybe a function name whose function has not yet been defined? 10:24:17 erm, that was supposed to go to lisp-newbie 10:24:18 (make-instance 'error) 10:24:31 stassats: That is not portable, though! :) 10:25:27 lisp-newbie: (defclass bla () ()) (make-instance 'bla) 10:25:58 lisp-newbie: this will print something that the reader cannot handle 10:26:17 lisp-newbie: however, if you do (eval (make-instance 'bla)), there should be no problem. 10:27:33 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-21-197.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 10:28:15 elderK [n=zk@219-89-245-126.adsl.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:28:31 interesting is also the variable *print-readably* 10:29:01 if you set it to T, then printing something that is not 'readable' will generate an error 10:29:13 beach: I see. In any case, a single atom such as "foo" constitutes an s-expression... 10:29:53 a s-epxression is basically either an atom or ( s-expression* ) 10:30:12 if I type "foo" at the REPL is responds ith "foo", suggesting that the s-expression consisting of only the atom "foo" was both read by the reader and evaluated by the evaluator 10:30:30 clhs " 10:30:30 yes 10:30:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_de.htm 10:30:50 you can also just READ something by calling (READ) 10:30:55 sorry, I am quite new to all this; I'm presently reading chapter 4 of Practical Common Lisp 10:31:06 that's a good book 10:31:30 lisp-newbie: yes, but that is not true for all atoms. Like if you type FOO, the reader will produce a symbol, and the evaluator will try to treat it as a variable, which would probably give an error because that variable probably has no value. 10:31:50 you can also read http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/index.html 10:32:00 which is more basic 10:32:30 beach: I understand that so I guess I'm coming along. ;) 10:32:54 good! :) 10:32:55 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B169302.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:33:16 lispm: I will check that out; I used to program in C and C++ but that was more than 10 years ago, now I am jumping right into CL 10:33:20 chris2 [n=chris@p5B169302.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:33:37 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B169302.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:34:08 chris2 [n=chris@p5B169302.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:34:19 both are really good introductions, but Peter's book is a bit more advanced, has much better examples, is more modern, etc 10:34:50 I started writing Bash scripts which got me interested in computer programming again, and I started using Emacs which got me interested in Lisp, and when I read the Lisp article on Wikipedia I was convinced to try learning this language whose proponents are so zealous about it 10:34:53 the 'Gentle Introduction' is really basic, that might help some people to get just those basics 10:35:37 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 10:36:05 all the programming knowledge I had from my programming days as a hobbyist is all slowly coming back to me 10:36:47 Peter Seibel's book should give you a good impression why Lisp is like it is and what you can do with it 10:38:26 I had a lot of trouble getting through the 3rd chapter of Peter's book, as he jumps right into coding a database, passing functions as arguments to other functions, using macros, etc.; all stuff that must be really basic everyday stuff in CL but it was all new to me. I rarely ever used pointers to functions in C/C++ so I was amazed to see how easy it is to pass a function as an argument to another function in CL 10:38:53 there the 'Gentle Introduction' is a bit slower in pace 10:39:45 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 10:39:49 yesterday I was able to write my own function and bind it to a key chord in Emacs which really escited me 10:39:52 the advantage of Peter's chapter 3 is that you see these things applied in an example 10:40:41 lispm: yeah, I should have realized that he was going to explain everything in detail later, instead I tried to understand in detail everything that he was doing. I got the basic concepts and understood in a general sense what he was doing. Gotta admit that coding a little database in so few lines is pretty impressive 10:41:12 yeah, imagine the thought that each keypress leads to the evaluation of a Lisp function 10:41:39 you type and Lisp functions run 10:42:23 In C++ I found that a lot of thought had to go into the planning of a program before the coding could even begin, do you find that this is not the case in CL because a lot can be hashed out at the REPL? 10:43:58 well, you can say that this is one of the core points of Lisp programming 10:43:58 lispm: how cool that another book on CL is available on-line! This is great! 10:44:33 C++ is like steel architecture, drafted, planned and then pushed into place 10:44:40 Lisp is like clay 10:44:47 lispm: very nice analogies 10:44:55 you take a bit and add a bit more 10:45:22 re-model, look, do you like it, add more, take some, look again 10:45:44 your program is created interactively in front of you 10:45:44 I am really looking forward to getting into OOP in CL, though that's still far down the road, but I can't wait to see how the object system works, bet it's going to blow my mind 10:46:42 there are several other Lisp books available online 10:46:53 really? 10:47:05 you just have to remember that you should try out things while reading 10:47:14 yes 10:47:15 and have a project :) 10:47:53 well, right now I am thinking that I want to write a text adventure game (if I can find the time) 10:47:57 lisp-newbie: we will tell you once you read the ones ypu have 10:47:59 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 10:48:11 lispm: ok ;) 10:48:21 lisp-newbie: that's a good project, fun 10:48:40 move over to #rlx for game 10:53:14 Aloha folks. 10:53:16 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:53:33 elderK: konnnichiwa 10:53:50 huomenta, elderK 10:54:00 zdrastye all 10:54:01 :P 10:54:03 hola! 10:54:10 bonjour! 10:54:16 hakuna matata 10:54:23 :P Yo 10:54:35 What's up guys? :) 10:54:47 and hey, lisp-newbie, have you taken a look at SICP? 10:55:05 elderK: I'm afraid I don't know what that is, so no... 10:55:21 :) Structure and implementatin of computer programs, iirc. 10:55:26 I highly recommend it :) 10:55:32 Cliki has a node on it :) 10:55:50 It teaches using Scheme, but all of what it teaches, applies to Lisp in general. 10:55:50 :) 10:55:58 And it's written pretty well :D 10:56:04 wow, so much to read! 10:56:12 let me see if I can find it.. 10:56:55 C++ is like steel lol 10:57:08 C++ is like steel with a zillion internal voids 10:57:26 elderK: found the page, thanks! 10:57:47 :) np lisp-newbie :) Have fun man 10:57:50 You come in with a mind full of mush, 10:57:50 and you leave thinking like a computer scientist. 10:57:56 that sounds hopeful! 10:58:00 And try not to get... how to say it, overwhelmed by everything :) 10:58:07 Just, take your time and have fun :) 10:58:07 or brain damaging 10:58:48 I recommend reading the Preface too, just for a little insight :) 10:58:52 The authors are hackers :D 10:58:58 They are enthusiastic, upbeat. 10:59:02 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-6584.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:59:13 Makes the text much easier to read, and for some reason, at least for me, easier to relate. 10:59:22 Anywho, back to reading and coffee-drinking. 10:59:22 :P 10:59:31 thanks very much, appreciate the help 10:59:36 np man :) 10:59:39 I'm new here myself. 11:01:10 among Lisp programmers, which do you think number the most: hobbyists or professional programmers? 11:02:00 probably difficult to tell 11:02:42 yay - my first planet.lisp post in almost a year. 11:03:42 lisp-newbie: what? do you mean.. there are people paid to use lisp?? are you sure?! 11:03:52 I sure hope so 11:04:02 ;) 11:05:35 Apparently there are 11:05:44 :) There are jobs for Python and Javascript. 11:05:55 There are jobs for simple scripting assignments :) 11:06:00 so there will be jobs for Lispaciousness. 11:06:19 not to mention, even in C-shops, lisp can come in highly useful for prototyping ideas rapidly. 11:06:26 right guys? :) 11:07:20 tombom_ [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 11:07:47 <_8david> taking ILC as a representative sample :-), I would guess that at least 50% actually use it in their day job 11:08:10 <_8david> mind you, that's not just "professional programmers", it's also "CS professors", "language designers", etc. :-) 11:09:20 that's reassuring; you see, I am going to be looking for a new job really soon 11:09:37 of course I know very little about CL at this stage 11:09:42 I read in a blog that some guy said he never saw so many bearded people 11:10:01 lispm: got a link ? 11:10:02 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:10:18 for the time being I am interested in doing Japanese to English translation in the IT field, and I hope I can use knowledge Lisp in some way 11:10:44 that's why I'm reading Peter's book in both Japanese and English 11:10:56 having both version available is fantastic 11:11:10 lispm: probably never been to a usenix conference before (: 11:11:20 antifuchs: that's, uh, an impressive way to repare a dishwasher :) 11:11:28 he compared it to a literature meeting 11:11:44 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-6584.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 11:11:47 cmm: and that's only for a small defect! 11:12:14 cmm: we could have stuck with the lego approach - but the reprap one is that muchmore fun (: 11:12:33 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.249.52] has quit [] 11:13:30 antifuchs: yeah. it's also cool to know that matter replication is now a reality, at least in some sense :) 11:13:55 it is! the machine can make (and has already made) 60% of its own parts 11:14:17 the rest should be a matter (ha) of tweaking (: 11:14:20 now I want teleportation 11:14:36 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-6584.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:14:45 I want consciousness accelleration (: 11:14:59 I'll be interested when it can extrude and/or shape metal 11:15:04 fe[nl]ix: can't find it 11:15:36 or it can extrude plastics with metallic properties 11:15:47 or something along those lines. 11:15:57 Adamant: people were experimenting with extruding solder 11:16:14 so circuit boards might soon happen (: 11:16:18 sulo_ [n=sulo@p54A3CCE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:38 antifuchs: solder's a start. making things out of steel would be more interesting. the circuit board part is definitely interesting though 11:17:35 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:17:36 there is another (more expensive) approach, where you apply a layer of dust and then fixate it with a laser, add another layer of dust and fixate, etc. that one works better than extrusion for arbitrary overhangs 11:18:15 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.249.52] has joined #lisp 11:18:25 but since nobody yet has access to a laser they want to potentially ruin, and no idea how to apply these layers without damaging stuff, this may be a few years away 11:18:43 yeah, the energy requirements and expense of the laser will delay that for a bit 11:18:49 but I guess that would be the way to go to use steel. 11:20:03 that sounds interesting. I might have to look at reprap again. 11:20:25 because then you have to worry less about heat insulation (currently, it operates at around 250C, while steel melts at around 1300C)... 11:21:30 the future is shaping up to become quite interesting (: 11:21:41 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-6584.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 11:21:46 CallToPower [n=CallToPo@xdsl-92-252-71-243.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:22:08 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 11:22:08 -!- tombom_ is now known as tombom 11:29:34 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 11:30:17 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 11:32:31 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:33:03 -!- sulo_ [n=sulo@p54A3CCE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:33:24 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-212-45.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:34:57 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483CBBF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:04 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 11:36:54 dto [n=user@68-187-212-45.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:37:01 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-212-45.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:37:08 -!- CallToPower [n=CallToPo@xdsl-92-252-71-243.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [] 11:37:49 dto [n=user@68-187-212-45.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:39:46 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:02 -!- elderK [n=zk@219-89-245-126.adsl.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 11:47:41 sulo_ [n=sulo@p54A3CCE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:12 CallToPower [n=CallToPo@xdsl-92-252-71-243.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:49:12 -!- sulo_ [n=sulo@p54A3CCE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:49:49 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:51:02 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:51:15 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-21-197.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:52:18 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:54 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:55:31 sellout: ping 11:55:44 good morning 11:56:06 -!- jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:56:58 sellout: got some time to talk about b-t ? 11:57:53 Yeah, I have a bit. Parents are visiting, but it'll be a while before everyone is up and about. 11:59:00 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 12:00:35 -!- schme is now known as schmx 12:01:35 sellout: it seems that it would be better to make *default-special-bindings* be NIL 12:03:13 Yeah, that's what it originally was anyway, right? 12:06:02 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:07:17 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:07:58 yes 12:08:37 also, wouldn't it be better to use eval rather than funcall here ? 12:08:44 makes debugging easier 12:10:28 -!- chpln [n=chpln@ppp121-45-157-74.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:11:18 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087F72F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:45 -!- crod [n=cmell@y192008.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:12:10 -!- lisp-newbie [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:12:49 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 12:13:08 cracki_ [n=cracki@134.130.183.101] has joined #lisp 12:17:24 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:18:00 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:18:41 -!- divz [n=divz@125.99.120.106] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:18:52 divz [n=divz@125.99.120.106] has joined #lisp 12:23:45 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:24:39 fe[nl]ix: sorry ... back. 12:24:41 fe[nl]ix: use eval where? 12:26:04 ah, I see ... 12:26:23 -!- fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 12:26:45 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-68-239-77-4.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:23 -!- CallToPower [n=CallToPo@xdsl-92-252-71-243.dip.osnanet.de] has quit ["system.exit(now);"] 12:28:23 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:29:18 crod [n=cmell@nttkyo036048.tkyo.nt.ngn.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:29:53 sellout: if I want to inspect the contents of *default-special-bindings*, an alist of lambdas is very cryptic 12:32:06 Yeah ... one way I've handled this in a different project was to store both the lambda and the form. So you can still use funcall, yet look at the form for debugging. 12:34:13 Of course, I was thinking of changing that to eval, so I'm not set on the approach ;) 12:35:16 -!- younder [n=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:37:03 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:54 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 12:49:03 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Client Quit] 12:49:22 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-6584.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 12:49:45 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-8022.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 12:50:13 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.19.23] has joined #lisp 12:56:52 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 13:02:44 -!- carbocalm [n=drjors2@76-10-137-63.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [] 13:06:12 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@134.130.183.101] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 13:07:41 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:07:42 schoppen1auer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:07:54 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.19.23] has left #lisp 13:17:56 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:17:56 -!- divz [n=divz@125.99.120.106] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:18:52 sulo_ [n=sulo@p54A3CCE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:05 myrkraverk`` [n=johann@157-157-81-133.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 13:22:58 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-11-55.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:23 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 13:24:35 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslhf145.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:27:41 -!- sulo_ [n=sulo@p54A3CCE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:30:35 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 13:38:07 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:40:09 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-84-44-168-52.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:40:48 Morning 13:41:16 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:41:27 moinz 13:42:36 Good afternoon everyone. 13:43:24 rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:46:52 -!- myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-81-133.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:48:12 -!- segv [n=mb@79.193.203.109] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:49:58 francogrex [n=franco@91.177.24.239] has joined #lisp 13:50:31 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:52:12 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCB34E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:46 -!- gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 13:53:49 hi 13:53:58 hello francogrex 13:54:04 I pasted a small code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/77740 13:54:32 it's to generate a vector of ransom uniform numbers 13:54:43 but I know it's ugly 13:55:07 use: (disassemble 'acc) to see for yourself 13:55:11 Well, it is not indented correctly. 13:55:19 also; 13:56:03 but more than indentation; I have all these boxed regions! 13:56:25 is there a way to get a cleaner assembly? 13:57:26 Why do you care about the machine code? 13:57:27 segv [n=mb@p4FC1FAC5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:11 because this code is part of an aplication where speed and "cleanliness" of the generated machine code are important 13:58:13 And what do you mean by a "boxed region? 13:58:46 er, "boxed region" 13:59:03 this is the compiler generatingthse messages 13:59:46 If you want better performance, you could specialize the element type to something like float or double float. 14:00:16 And you should definitely declare (speed 3) as well. 14:02:16 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 14:02:32 ok specializing elemnt type helps a little thnx 14:02:57 ywlcm 14:04:29 xuanwu_ [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-233-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:25 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.13] has joined #lisp 14:09:14 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.177.24.239] has left #lisp 14:15:41 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:57 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:22:51 -!- xuanwu [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:27:34 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:28:40 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:29:40 -!- schoppen1auer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:31:12 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:36:08 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:58 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-204-204.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:38:56 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:22 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:41:31 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 14:41:39 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:18 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.115.220] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:43:42 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-84-44-168-52.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:45:48 keithr [n=keithr@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:49 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-84-44-171-250.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:51:02 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B169302.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:54:22 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 14:55:15 -!- _8david [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:56:07 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-84-44-171-250.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 14:57:54 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [] 14:58:24 xuanwu [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:11 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:00 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:05:24 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:05:26 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:07:16 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:07 -!- mjonsson [n=mjonsson@66-234-42-80.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:10:14 If I trace :break T a function in sbcl/slime, where should I be able to provide input? there is no sldb window. 15:11:28 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslhf145.osnanet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 15:12:19 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslhf145.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:13:48 drewc: ping 15:17:52 nathanael [n=nathanae@82.113.121.9] has joined #lisp 15:20:06 -!- nathanael [n=nathanae@82.113.121.9] has quit [Client Quit] 15:21:40 so... I'm trying to make a facebook app... how do I open a browser window, and maybe block until the person closes it? 15:22:32 from... the webserver? 15:22:41 they support writing Facebook apps in Lisp? 15:22:50 housel: a desktop app. 15:23:21 seems like there's cl-facebook 15:24:29 -!- xuanwu_ [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-233-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:25:35 yea, I'm updating cl-facebook's code 15:25:54 it's using old api calls, and, apparently tivial-http doesn't exist anymore? 15:26:34 so, I can authenticate, then the user needs to log in through facebook's login.php, then I can start making api calls, or so it seems 15:29:15 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-219-94.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:07 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@212.1.228.48] has joined #lisp 15:31:30 fisxoj: drakma. 15:31:32 hello. Any iolib devs/users around? 15:31:41 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 15:34:16 H4ns: ping? 15:34:41 pkhuong: that looks like just another http library... 15:35:07 anyone know if I can just mine values from login.php's source and post the login info on my own? 15:36:14 fisxoj: read the facebook api documentation 15:36:37 (or possibly the python facebook libraries, which, last time I looked, were far more legible than the horrible documentation) 15:41:41 fisxoj: right, but it's still maintained. 15:44:04 ivan4th: me 15:46:29 fe[nl]ix: well, my question was whether read-sequence/write-sequence always blocks on sockets, even if they're non-blocking. It turns out they always do. I'm supposed to use recvfrom/sendto on sockets to get nonblocking behavior, right? 15:46:56 ivan4th: that's correct 15:47:53 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-84-44-171-250.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:48:05 jlf` [n=user@adsl-99-165-88-234.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:23 fe[nl]ix: and when working e.g. with a serial port, I'm supposed to use iolib.syscalls:%sys-write directly? 15:49:43 more or less 15:50:10 I'm working on adding support for file streams to iolib, but it's still incomplete 15:50:28 -!- snippyhollow [n=snippyho@212.116.219.91] has quit ["Night alls"] 15:51:40 fe[nl]ix: ok, thanks. 15:53:17 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:53:54 KingNato [n=KingNato@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:24 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:57:09 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:59:01 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@212.1.228.48] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:59:49 milanj [n=milan@79.101.137.226] has joined #lisp 16:01:33 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-53.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:02:47 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@212.1.228.48] has joined #lisp 16:06:05 elias` [n=me@cs78208074.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:06:22 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:10:20 fe[nl]ix: btw, what are zeta-streams? 16:10:41 the stream library I'm working on 16:11:38 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 16:12:04 from zetalisp? 16:12:51 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:28 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:13:55 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:13:55 tic: no. I just like "zeta" 16:15:37 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:16:03 antifuchs: your first planet lisp post in a year, and it's about some clojure treachery? =p 16:16:22 heheh 16:17:39 antifuchs: fun project. 16:18:16 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:18:17 -!- myrkraverk`` [n=johann@157-157-81-133.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:18:34 is low-cost 3d printing actually available now? 16:19:21 I do like the ease of embedding clojure bits in large pre-existing nasty java things 16:19:25 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:19:40 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [] 16:19:51 I wonder how well cl+j works in such situations. 16:20:12 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 16:20:29 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:20:33 oh, never heard of that one 16:20:43 myrkraverk`` [n=johann@157-157-81-133.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 16:20:45 only java interfaces I knew of were lispworks and allegro ones 16:22:23 it's very fresh. 16:24:07 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4599.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 16:26:12 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:27:00 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 16:27:13 -!- xuanwu [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:30:20 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:26 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:31:38 smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:49 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:36:19 Lain [n=Lain@c-71-224-213-131.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:21 -!- Lain [n=Lain@c-71-224-213-131.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:39:58 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 16:40:12 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:41:22 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6BF7D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:36 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:59 simard [n=user@modemcable234.226-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:45:03 -!- simard [n=user@modemcable234.226-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 16:46:40 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:47:28 rsynnott: We have a 3D printer at work. I think it cost some 50kEUR, but it is pretty high precision stuff. It is fun because it can print objects with multiple separately-moving parts, and those parts can be connected in arbitrary ways. So for instance, I have a 3D version of the LaBRI logo where the dot in the middle is actually a free-spinning ball held in place by the two L-shaped walls around it. 16:47:59 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 16:48:03 beach, wow, such a device would be so much fun 16:48:12 It is! 16:48:20 how long does it take to produce a model? 16:48:25 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCB34E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 16:50:59 Quite a while. Several minutes. It works by depositing thin layers of two materials, one that becomes solid and one that can be dissolved by water. 16:54:12 i've seen a laser sintered version of the SGI cube done in stainless powder. 16:54:30 those laser sintering 'printers' are pretty intense. 16:54:54 Yeah, that sounds pretty wild. 16:55:23 they can print off metal parts in everything from bronze to stainless. I heard there are high power systems that can print titanium. 16:57:18 Well, we've had 2D printing devices for a very long time, and somehow they still can't do stained glass. 16:57:23 the reprap system is also pretty neat. 16:57:25 you, too, can print an aircraft 16:57:41 a fabricator that can print almost all the parts necessary to make another fabricator. 16:57:59 ecxepting the metal bars and the circuitboard. 16:59:56 p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-d038a261ffe13648] has joined #lisp 17:00:08 (amazing, really; it's only about 40 years that the titanium for a spy aircraft had to be covertly purchased from the USSR; now you can apparently just print one :) 17:00:55 well, the titanium still comes from the same geography; now it's just more readily available. :) 17:01:12 haha 17:01:34 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslhf145.osnanet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 17:01:43 other people make it these days, it seems 17:01:43 most of the titanium for the SR-71 came from Canada. 17:02:06 but russia still has the vast majority of the world's titanium 17:02:42 it's also very, very cheap these days, in comparison; the non-active part of most pills is titanium dioxide 17:04:26 Fade: Russia has every natural resource. Guess it comes in package called "being biggest country on Earth" :D 17:05:21 the strategic importance of Canada's political and geographic proximity to the united states during the cold war was not lost on Canadians. :) 17:05:33 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:09:15 matley [n=matley@83.225.31.104] has joined #lisp 17:09:25 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:22 sadly, they didn't take the wacky propaganda film approach 17:10:45 (shortly before the US entered WW2, there was a propaganda film released about _Fascist Canada_ 17:11:06 *Fade* laughs 17:13:07 lol 17:14:00 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:14:16 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:16:32 So I've got a process which takes up my cpu but which I cannot seem to kill via kill -9; does anyone know what to do in this case? 17:16:55 is it by any chance using an nfs mount? 17:17:19 no it's gaim 17:18:59 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 17:21:23 It's probably trapped in an uninterruptable I/O wait 17:21:46 -!- p_l|backup [n=plasek@pp82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["leaving"] 17:21:59 that could be, there was some havoc with the audio system involved 17:22:10 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 17:22:18 ah, yes, linux audio 17:22:21 *hefner* waves his pitchfork 17:22:30 if there was one thing that really pushed me to macos.... 17:23:00 Hello 17:23:43 so what would be a good channel to ask for advice? 17:23:52 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:24:39 jcowan: but I/O wait... why is it taking up my cpu then? 17:25:03 how about #pidgin ? 17:25:32 I should attach a strace 17:25:55 dacm [n=dan@93-97-191-231.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:27:28 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 17:27:32 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:27:42 Newbie question: Is dynamic scoping necessary for a lisp, or could one have a lisp based entirely on lexical scoping? 17:27:54 Sure you ccan 17:27:59 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:28:18 jcowan: Would it suck though? :-P 17:28:25 You can't do without a dynamic *environment*, but there's no reason it has to be represented by dynamic variables. 17:28:32 No, it wouldn't. Go ask on #scheme. 17:28:35 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:28:52 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 17:28:55 jcowan: Thanks. 17:29:00 dacm: Common Lisp uses lexical scoping by default, but I suppose you know that. 17:29:02 -!- egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has left #lisp 17:30:04 beach: I didn't know that, it looked like it was a mixture from what I'd seen. (Depending on how a variable is declared.) 17:30:15 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:30:28 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:31:52 Well, yes. 17:32:02 You can declare function parameters dynamic too 17:32:38 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:32:42 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-204-204.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 17:32:46 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:34:30 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-217.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:35:16 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:35:40 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-177-220.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 17:35:50 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 17:38:11 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:12 you have to do tha rather explicitly, though 17:42:46 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:44:29 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 17:44:58 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-188-120.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:47:10 Cryovat [n=null@m217h.studby.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 17:49:35 -!- jlf` [n=user@adsl-99-165-88-234.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:51:19 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:51:31 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:52:02 i've found it generally useful just to treat CL as a lexically scoped language. 17:53:12 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-177-220.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 17:54:53 never bound *standard-output* to anything? 17:56:37 with-output-to, or whatever it is called, does the job 17:56:49 oudeis [n=oudeis@84.229.162.24] has joined #lisp 17:56:55 -!- smolyn is now known as smolyn|away 17:59:27 do tell me, what is it called? 18:00:41 with-standard-output, ilisp specification, page 103 =p 18:01:08 islisp, rather. 18:06:53 thanks, hefner 18:06:56 thefner 18:07:58 -!- vy [n=user@88.230.186.228] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:08:08 vy [n=user@88.230.186.228] has joined #lisp 18:08:48 goblin [n=goblin@89.136.174.25] has joined #lisp 18:08:50 don't kill me 18:08:51 hey fellas 18:09:03 hello goblin 18:09:30 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 18:10:16 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:11:22 one simple question. Starting to learn lisp (will want to use lisp "scripts" to run stuff like I do with my bash scripts etc) 18:11:32 emacs + sbcl is all I should need right? 18:11:49 and 640k of memory 18:11:57 also sbcl or clisp? I tkow they are 2 "flavours" so need to decide on one 18:12:01 know* 18:12:02 goblin: You will want to use SLIME. 18:12:17 I have slime too yes 18:12:58 sbcl is generally preferred around here. 18:13:03 for scripts I'd probably use clisp. Or scsh... 18:13:21 there are sbclrc hacks to make shebang scripts work /w sbcl. 18:13:42 Fade: I know. Still. 18:13:47 so writing scripts will be a bit of a pain using sbcl? 18:13:56 but cl in general isn't as good as other systems for operating system interaction stuff. 18:13:59 Fade: actually, these hacks are not needed with recent sbcls 18:13:59 -!- repnop [n=repnop@adsl-69-226-99-176.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:14:15 repnop [n=repnop@adsl-69-226-99-176.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:17 michaelw: I haven't looked at that aspect in quite awhile. 18:15:20 Zakaleth [n=fowler@86-46-215-152-dynamic.b-ras1.pgs.portlaoise.eircom.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:52 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177153016.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:17:19 Fade: it works fine so long as you're not bothered by not writing portable CL 18:17:40 you might have to rewrite your scripts if VMS makes an unexpected comeback, but that's a small price to pay for getting things done 18:19:14 so..back to my question..sbcl or clisp? :) 18:19:15 goblin: depending on what you're doing, you might also want to pick a library like osicat or sb-posix 18:19:30 what about iolib? 18:19:55 well just learnign atm so scripts I want to run from the terminal will be enough 18:19:57 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@84.229.162.24] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:20:05 eventually I will be doing some xlib stuff 18:20:45 would be lovely if I could just make scripts like I do with bash with a header like "#!/usr/bin/sbcl" 18:20:51 and just chmod and run 18:21:22 goblin: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Shebang-Scripts.html#Shebang-Scripts 18:21:45 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:21:48 http://www.xhbml.com/archives/37 18:21:51 reading this atm 18:22:02 oh thanks great link 18:22:28 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:23:03 goblin: You might find this useful as well: http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/os.html 18:23:09 tic: I was really thinking mostly about a filesystem interface. If iolib has such a thing, the documentation hasn't caught up with it. 18:23:12 does sbcl work on windows 18:23:25 hefner, I see. Sorry about that. (what about CL-FAD, though?) 18:24:02 *tic* need to write some code that emulates CPython's os.path.* and string.* ... 18:25:32 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:25:39 37 18:25:44 sheesh, this is slow going 18:26:09 37? 18:26:18 remaining differences? 18:26:21 tic: cl-fad builds on the underlying CL's pathname functions, right? I'm not keen on that approach. I just use sb-posix and sling strings, on the few occasions I've needed to robustly deal with a hostile filesystem 18:27:29 remaining differences in src/code 18:27:47 remaining files with differences; sometimes there are multiple issues in each file 18:28:06 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 18:29:22 hefner, ah, yeah. I get it now. 18:30:21 hefner: I'm working on a filesystem interface these days. code is welcome 18:30:44 oudeis [n=oudeis@84.229.162.24] has joined #lisp 18:32:53 fe[nl]ix: do you know about Shivers' article on OS resources? 18:33:04 fe[nl]ix: 18:34:31 michaelw: I didn't. thanks :) 18:35:26 hmm, 404 18:35:52 eh? wfm 18:36:03 a lisp package that duplicated the python os modules functionality would be awesome. 18:36:26 michaelw: the link to os-gc.ps inside that page is 404 18:36:31 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.109] has joined #lisp 18:36:32 but I found it elsewhere 18:36:51 fe[nl]ix: the "cached" links on the right of the page work, though 18:38:22 -!- goblin [n=goblin@89.136.174.25] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.7-dev"] 18:38:33 -!- ampley is now known as ampleyfly 18:43:29 tombom: sbcl works on windows 18:43:37 oh ok 18:43:48 anything special needed? 18:43:50 tombom: there is an issue with sbcl + slime, and this file helped me work around the issue: http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/new-serve-event.lisp 18:44:03 nothing except that file 18:44:09 ok thanks 18:45:30 sbcl has some kind've bug in, er, i forget which function - something with a name like stream-read-hang, where if you tried to evaluate, say, (+ 3 a), you'd get the expected error message, but not get your slime pormpt back 18:46:26 the fix in that file isn't perfect, i'm told - it may come unstuck under heavy usage or somesuch, but for my newbie purposes it works great 18:47:20 so, what's the cheapest way in sbcl to create a "box"? Something like (defstruct box content) appears to cost 6 words. (cons tag content) would be cheaper, but less convenient. 18:48:50 michaelw: a cons cell ? 18:49:33 prip [n=_prip@host39-196-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:49:52 err, perhaps not 6 words but 4 for the defstruct? 18:49:56 michaelw: defstruct :type list? 18:49:58 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@80.250.159.240] has joined #lisp 18:50:33 If you can live without boxes being a separate type, then you can get the convenience by using defstruct :type t :named nil 18:50:34 tcr: yeah, but that's the same as (list tag content), so one cons more 18:50:37 err, type list 18:51:22 same rep as pure cons, but you get all the nice little struct functions 18:51:42 michaelw: your original struct didn't have a tag 18:51:54 -!- smolyn|away is now known as smolyn 18:51:56 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host246.190-138-168.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:51:58 (unless the tag is being of type BOX) 18:52:06 hefner: yes, that's good enough 18:54:35 michaelw: right, that'd be 4: header, classoid, slot, padding. 18:56:50 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:56:57 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-025-060.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:35 pkhuong: are you saying that I could get a second slot for free? 18:58:21 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@84.229.162.24] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:58:25 yup. 18:58:40 What exactly want you be boxed, and why? for call-by-reference? 18:59:10 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:59:27 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student167-200.hampshire.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:59:34 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-204-108.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:33 what's the way to get the symbols and external-symbols of a package which is not being loaded, which stays say in a file utils.lisp, how can i extract that information ? 19:01:21 sepult: read the file, analyze the defpackage form statically. michaelw got code that, I think. 19:01:29 for that 19:02:11 and it won't necessarily be accurate, but generally accurate enough 19:02:13 tcr: I want to change data structure representations behind the user's back 19:02:48 tcr: no, I can just regenerate a defpackage's form from the package object 19:02:58 (loop for s being the symbols of (find-package "CL-USER") collect s) gives me the answer but after i loaded the package, after some symbols failed to load due to namespaceclashes 19:03:29 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:03:56 the error probably tells you which symbols conflict. What's your problem? 19:04:13 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:04:33 joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 19:04:49 tcr: i got some utility functions defined in a package, i want to know which i should shadow or not 19:05:14 how do I get auto-indentation in the command line repl like I can for emacs? Is there any .inputrc trickery to be had? 19:05:43 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@190.226.113.35] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:06:29 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 19:07:21 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:25 sepult: my symbol-clash patch to SLIME would make that pretty easy, I guess: load the package, let the first error happen, choose the right restart (which package's symbols to favor), print out package form with defpackage-form. 19:08:39 How do I find out the problem that you see in this screenshot: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/size.png 19:09:21 It appears that drei-buffer:size gets called with zero arguments, but the stack trace looks totally strange. 19:09:36 beach: Cute. 19:10:06 beach: Look into *slime-events* what was sent from swank 19:10:39 beach: then debug BACKTRACE in swank.lisp, and COMPUTE-BACKTRACE in swank-sbcl.lisp 19:12:05 tcr: I am not sure what I am supposed to be looking for. 19:12:17 tcr: Are you saying this might be a SLIME problem? 19:12:40 Don't people use the "delete dependent package graphs and reload" instead of "restart lisp and reload" method? 19:13:25 beach: You should investigate what's at fault here. Swank, Slime, or SBCL. 19:13:46 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:14:01 beach: I'd print out the result of compute-backtrace in backtrace for a start 19:14:20 I'm trying to come up with an interactivity boost compared to the unlispy restart-and-reload thing. 19:14:27 you can just insert a FORMAT, and then use C-c C-c, and then invoke the RETRY restart 19:14:34 younder [i=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 19:14:36 and on the REPL the output should be shown 19:16:19 There's a problem -- there's no map between modules (ASD/mudballs/whatever) and packages. 19:16:28 The information is not being kept. 19:16:34 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 19:16:50 Greetings! 19:16:58 No module->package ownership concept either. 19:20:17 beach: I'd start by looking for a print-object method for some object that errors under some condition 19:20:36 Moreover, I guess if such a thing ever arises it needs to be kept orthogonal to whatever other aspects a module may possess -- so that future ASDF-like decommissions do not affect the forward compatibility. 19:21:19 tcr: I got a better backtrace when not using SLIME, but it was essentially correct. It appears that sb-impl:print-description somehow calls drei-buffer:size with 0 arguments ??? 19:21:54 -!- smolyn is now known as smolyn|away 19:21:58 francogrex [n=franco@91.177.24.239] has joined #lisp 19:22:11 Krystof: Hmm, OK. 19:22:47 anyone's using clisp ? 19:23:09 many would be; i used it in the past 19:23:31 i can't get the definition of functions, instead disassemble gives me assembler representation 19:23:35 beach: How old is you version of slime? 19:23:53 that's what disasemble has to do 19:24:13 try describe or documentation 19:24:29 If not too old, errors during printing of backtrace frames should result in "[error printing frame]" 19:24:49 sepult: function-lambda-expression may return it 19:25:04 sepult: But you're doing it wrong. 19:25:29 tcr: what's the correct way then ? 19:25:59 sepult: Write your definitions in a file, then have your editor compile the definitions into you running lisp implementation 19:26:57 Could you tell me what should I put in .emacs to start slime-mode with every open .lisp file, without M-x slime-mode ? 19:27:11 tcr: I don't think it has anything to do with SLIME. I get the same error when running it without SLIME. 19:27:49 tcr: the problem is ! is already defined in EXT (as factorial), no when i load onlisp.lisp i get a clash with (defun ! (fn) (or (gethash fn *!equivs*) fn)) 19:28:07 MrSpec: (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) 19:29:11 tcr: it tells me it's a builtin function, and there's no docu, apart from telling me it takes just one argument :arg0 19:29:21 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 19:30:18 tcr, hmm it doesnt work 19:31:04 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:09 :what do you expect to get? 19:31:54 MrSpec: Your version of slime is probably too old 19:32:00 when I open .lisp file in emacs, I have write slime-mode to start it in slime mode 19:32:11 I'de like to start slime instead of lisp mode 19:32:15 tcr, ahh 19:32:17 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:33:04 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:33:09 : sorry got u confused with mrSpec, what do you expect to get as function definition? 19:34:21 drakej [n=Fred@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:20 francogrex: which shows the actual definition along 19:35:46 francogrex: not assembly code, just the definition 19:36:06 francogrex: wouldn't be problematic with long definitions u ask eh ? 19:36:13 lol 19:36:47 francogrex: maybe the formatter could deal with just presenting upto 8 or 10 lines of it 19:37:08 francogrex: or splitting it like with a pager 19:37:34 sepult: that's not stored normally, but you might be interested in pjb's ibcl library which allows that 19:37:42 francogrex: oh 19:37:51 michaelw: where can i find it ? 19:38:00 wait i'll google 19:39:06 -!- vy [n=user@88.230.186.228] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:40:09 well why wouldn't describe work then? 19:40:20 example: (describe 'print) 19:40:31 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:47 EOF 19:41:55 Qsquare [n=user@208.75.91.170] has joined #lisp 19:41:56 # is a built-in system function. Argument list: (#:ARG0 &OPTIONAL #:ARG1) For more information, evaluate (DISASSEMBLE #'PRINT).# is a built-in system function. Argument list: (#:ARG0 &OPTIONAL #:ARG1) For more information, evaluate (DISASSEMBLE #'PRINT). 19:42:12 that's what i get with describe 19:42:53 0xb7f76424 in __kernel_vsyscall () 19:42:54 0x08116640 : push %ebp 19:42:54 0x08116641 : mov %esp,%ebp 19:42:54 0x08116643 : sub $0x8,%esp 19:42:54 0x08116646 : mov 0x8261d08,%eax 19:42:56 0xb7f76424 in __kernel_vsyscall () 19:42:58 0x08116640 : push %ebp 19:43:01 0x08116641 : mov %esp,%ebp 19:43:03 0x08116643 : sub $0x8,%esp 19:43:06 0x08116646 : mov 0x8261d08,%eax 19:43:08 and that's disassembled 19:43:11 and so on 19:43:21 nothing showing me the definition actually 19:43:46 is that what you get usually ? 19:43:52 what implementation? 19:43:55 clisp 19:43:56 sepult: please use a paste for these things :) 19:44:09 madnificent: ok sorry i know, i'll not do it 19:44:25 ah ok; because in ecl and sbcl you get nothing like those; you get the pure description 19:44:35 francogrex: exactly 19:44:36 _death [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 19:45:16 it maybe either a bug or an implementation quirk 19:45:49 francogrex: actually a bug i think, there's some note on it on their site now i see 19:47:22 it's suprising; I thought clisp was one of the best 19:47:55 the only reason i stopped using it beccause it doesn't comile to machine code 19:50:34 francogrex: it doesn't compile to machine code ?? 19:50:46 francogrex: is it a vm ? 19:51:15 francogrex: or what do you mean ? 19:51:15 compiles to bytecode only 19:51:35 francogrex: so it is a vm then 19:51:55 if i'm wrong someone here can correct me, but i don't think i'm wrong on clisp 19:52:16 they must have changed it 19:52:34 it wasn't that way i think 19:52:43 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 19:53:58 as far as i know, it never compiled to machine code 19:54:49 clisp doesn't compile to machine code by default, but I believe it can. 19:55:00 you can bootstrap sbcl /w clisp. 19:55:27 yeah but then it's using Python which is not clisp but sbcl 19:55:40 Fade: yeah why not, let's add some more confusion to this sorry conversation 19:55:49 heh 19:56:20 : have any clarifications go head 19:59:35 i didn't think so 20:00:34 i'm wrong. clisp only compiles to bytecode 20:01:39 i guess that partially explains its extreme portability. 20:03:14 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:14 -!- jao [n=jao@75.84.114.170] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:14 -!- flazz [n=franco@209.17.170.123] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:14 -!- schmx [n=schme@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:14 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@84.48.88.42] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:14 -!- rotty [n=rotty@78.41.115.190] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:14 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:14 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@82.130.50.23] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:14 -!- tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:14 -!- msingh [n=user@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:14 -!- jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:14 -!- larstobi [n=larstobi@195.139.173.50] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:14 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:14 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:14 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:14 -!- cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:14 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:15 joga_ [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 20:03:15 jsnell_ [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 20:03:16 Adrinael_ [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 20:03:16 cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 20:03:17 dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 20:03:17 flazz [n=franco@qubes.org] has joined #lisp 20:03:19 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 20:03:22 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 20:03:23 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 20:03:23 msingh [n=user@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 20:03:25 larstobi [n=larstobi@195.139.173.50] has joined #lisp 20:03:26 schmx [n=schme@c83-249-81-1.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:03:32 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:03:32 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 20:03:36 timchen1` [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 20:03:44 elias` [n=me@cs78208074.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:06:54 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:16 does anyone know how to overcome this compiler glitch: doing float to pointer coercion (cost 13) to "" 20:08:31 Don't return floats from global non-inlined functions. It's almost inherent to the task of returning or passing floats. 20:08:36 obj/from-clisp-xc/src/code/defboot.lisp-obj obj/from-sbcl-xc/src/code/defboot.lisp-obj differ: byte 68765, line 350 20:08:41 *Krystof* uses IRC as notepad 20:09:51 there are some quite subtle issues lurking 20:10:03 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-164-249.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:15 : so this is theprobelmatic expression; how to not return a float from it? (LAMBDA () (RANDOM 1.0)) 20:11:12 -!- joga_ is now known as joga 20:11:13 use (random 1) instead 20:11:55 that's not mathematically the sa&me 1 and 1.0 20:12:11 so, better give some constraints about what you actually care about 20:12:18 random 1 is either 1 or zero, it's nonsense in ransom uniform numbers 20:12:22 you are wrong 20:12:37 (random 1) is always 0 20:12:38 francogrex: use single-floats and sbcl on x86-64, which has immediate single-float superpowers 20:12:55 if the thing you care about most is the compiler note, then my solution works 20:13:04 clearly you care about something else more. 20:13:20 true, but it's not only the note; it's optimizing the code 20:13:57 : do upou think I'm gonna change to code to make it mathematically incorrect just so I don't get notes, 20:14:15 -!- yipstar [n=user@cpe-74-64-96-182.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:14:47 you're already mathematically incorrect, just by using floats 20:15:13 When I compile a file via slime, who decides where the fasl will be stored. Is it slime or the backend? 20:16:23 maybe; ok let me paste the code and maybe you can tell me where it si actually wrong 20:16:51 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:16:53 how about "it's not wrong at all"? 20:17:15 what are u talking about? 20:17:39 u haven't sen it yet 20:17:43 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 20:17:47 what makes you think you have a problem? A compiler optimization note? 20:18:15 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:18:26 (declare (optimize (speed 0))) ; fixed, as if by magic! 20:18:59 : a note tells me that there is something that could be made better 20:18:59 yeah, or (rational (random 1.0)) 20:19:32 no, the note tells you there might be a performance issue there. Whether or not it's avoidable is another question. 20:20:03 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:20:42 : u think it's unavoidable? Wait i'll paste it on the site 20:22:13 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:23:54 i think you have given me the hint to write this yesterday right? 20:23:56 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:24:18 http://paste.lisp.org/display/77750 20:25:39 phromo [i=phromo@c-cdcde455.015-359-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:25:58 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.249.52] has quit [] 20:26:44 yes, what's the problem? 20:27:06 u think it's ok? 20:28:14 francogrex: fine except that globally optimizing speed 3 safety 0 is probably a bad idea 20:28:31 jao [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:28:33 in fact, it will drive you mad 20:30:55 So write a (declare (optimize speed (safety 0)) (fixnum lim)) instead 20:32:15 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:32:35 -!- Adrinael_ is now known as Adrinael 20:32:49 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:34:10 : this makes it worse! instead of one compiler complaint i get seven! 20:38:45 francogrex: Is (type-of 1.0) single-float? 20:39:09 what compiler, version and architecture are you using? 20:39:25 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:41:12 : yes it is 20:42:01 febeling [n=febeling@p5B25BABD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:06 i386 (x86), I'm using Python 20:44:36 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:44:39 CMUCL or SBCL? Version? 20:45:42 SBCL 1.0.22 20:48:06 Might be an issue with it being an older version, but I don't see anything like that here. 20:49:17 you have the 23 or 25? 20:49:40 1.0.26 20:49:43 oh 20:49:52 i didn't know it was even out 20:50:14 27 20:50:24 (not an sbcl version, a count of discrepant files) 20:50:41 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@80.250.159.240] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:50:41 Krystof: soon to be a version, though (: 20:51:03 obj/from-clisp-xc/src/code/debug-int.lisp-obj obj/from-sbcl-xc/src/code/debug-in 20:51:04 t.lisp-obj differ: byte 300141, line 1526 20:51:18 wow. 300140 identical bytes, then something different 20:51:33 is SLIME broken for os x? for one reason or another, slime isn't opening up a REPL when I type M-x slime. it seems to launch swank and connect to it all right, but I get no REPL 20:51:57 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:51:57 make sure you're loading slime-fancy in your slime setup. 20:52:08 *hefner* wonders how many SLIME users there are 20:52:36 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.177.24.239] has left #lisp 20:52:38 slime-repl is the contrib which contains a repl. slime-fancy contains some arbitrary collection of contribs 20:52:44 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:55:06 Krystof: you seem to be getting pretty close. is the clisp build still not working? 20:55:10 thank you all, works fine now 20:55:18 jsnell_: nope. Crash in cold-init 20:55:27 there are a couple of difficult cases that I'm avoiding 20:55:46 all of the changes that I'm making are basically to isolate the actual meaty discrepancies 20:56:00 so far I have only fixed one case that was an actual difference in assembly code 20:56:22 Krystof: the ECX/EDX thing? What was it? 20:56:38 no, that one is still there, punted until someone clever tells me how to fix it 20:56:42 _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.140.101] has joined #lisp 20:56:52 the case I fixed was a consequence of the most-positive-fixnum leak, which caused extra type tests in the clisp version 20:57:23 Krystof: what's the ecx/edx thing? 20:58:00 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.140.101] has quit [Client Quit] 20:58:07 some code in bignum-negate gets compiled differently under clisp-host and sbcl-host 20:58:29 at the point where I notice, three instructions differ; they have ecx and edx (which look like temporaries) permuted 20:59:33 there may be other differences later in the file 21:02:28 luis's immediate instinct was to say "sort!" 21:03:18 but we stable sort already. 21:03:24 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 21:03:31 At least in the obvious place for me to look at. 21:04:08 felix^^ [n=user@dslb-088-075-056-057.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:08 yes 21:04:23 but maybe we unstable-sort something else before we stably sort whatever we sort 21:04:34 Krystof: two sbcl cores built on different systems end up bitwise identical? 21:04:54 with different sbcl hosts? 21:04:54 mega1: not for a good while yet, I think 21:05:05 I haven't actually tried 21:05:12 pkhuong: maybe we sort by #'random :-) 21:06:08 -!- jsnell_ is now known as jsnell 21:06:59 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:06:59 -!- jao [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:06:59 -!- rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:06:59 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:06:59 -!- dacm [n=dan@93-97-191-231.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:06:59 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:06:59 -!- Qsquare [n=user@208.75.91.170] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:06:59 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-125-22-221.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:06:59 -!- Chrononaut [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:06:59 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:06:59 -!- rumbleca [n=rumble@174.0.46.123] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:06:59 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:06:59 -!- deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:07:13 yahooooo6 [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:27 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:07:27 jao [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:07:27 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 21:07:27 Qsquare [n=user@208.75.91.170] has joined #lisp 21:07:27 dacm [n=dan@93-97-191-231.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:07:27 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:07:27 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 21:07:27 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-125-22-221.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:27 Chrononaut [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:27 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:27 deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 21:07:27 rumbleca [n=rumble@174.0.46.123] has joined #lisp 21:08:38 mega1: failures in signals, threads and timer .impure; I'll run again on 1.0.26 to look for regressions 21:08:41 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 21:09:45 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Success] 21:09:56 pkhuong: what platform, sbcl version? 21:10:10 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:10:10 OS X, HEAD, x86 and x86-64 21:10:20 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 21:10:31 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:40 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:46 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 21:11:12 -!- rumbleca [n=rumble@174.0.46.123] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:11:15 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-67-125-22-221.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:15 pkhuong: I had hoped the OS X issues are fixed. 21:11:17 rumbleca_ [n=rumble@174.0.46.123] has joined #lisp 21:11:20 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-125-22-221.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:11:51 dgou [n=dgou@67.217.140.59] has joined #lisp 21:11:54 -!- Qsquare [n=user@208.75.91.170] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:12:17 jsnell: on the plus side I'm getting quite good at reading fasl files 21:12:21 that stupid workaround in 1.0.26.10 is not working for you, I guess 21:13:02 pkhuong: wait, this is with threads, right? 21:13:09 Krystof: what next ? punchcards ? 21:13:10 yes. Unthreaded, everything's fine 21:13:30 pkhuong: threaded failures are a dime a dozen 21:13:43 and it's not a new development. 21:14:07 nothing quite like the sound of a punchcard stack reader first thing in the morning. :) 21:14:26 -!- dgou [n=dgou@67.217.140.59] has left #lisp 21:14:32 Right. Still, I'll make sure there's no regression. 21:14:52 I wish I could paste some stuff so that you could all share the excitement 21:15:06 sadly neither IRC nor lisppaste doesn't render control characters terribly well 21:15:13 urgh, don't edit sentences late at night 21:15:18 aren't you using hexl-mode? 21:15:22 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-224-54.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 21:15:36 no, should I? 21:16:12 pkhuong: thanks. It's somewhat hard to do so since it tends to lose() in the middle of files and it's undeterministic. 21:16:12 I made a concession to modernity today and made myself a shell function for editing two corresponding fasl files and the source file simultaneously 21:16:44 I'm angling for the creation of Christophe Rhodes Facts, obviously 21:16:45 just asking... it made it easier for me to read fasls when I did the speculative "dump symbol from previous package" hack. 21:17:00 "Christophe Rhodes doesn't need a compiler: he edits fasl files by hand" 21:17:07 I convinced myself that things are roughly in the same shape and marvelled at the brokenness of the OS X threaded build in general. 21:18:13 I don't think Xach will be happy. 21:18:14 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-118-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:47 He must be using the "published" element from the atom feed and not the "updated" one. 21:21:12 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-8022.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:25 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:43 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279775610.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 21:23:22 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:55 dto343 [n=user@68-187-212-45.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:24:47 -!- dto343 is now known as dto-3 21:25:30 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-212-45.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:27:20 0: SB!C::PACK-XREF-DATA returned #(NIL #(SB-XC:MACRO-FUNCTION (9 4 2 2 8 2 1 2)) NIL NIL NIL) 21:27:27 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.31.104] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:28:38 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:28:56 1. Trace: SB!C::PACK-XREF-DATA ==> #(NIL #(SB-XC:MACRO-FUNCTION (9 4 2 2 8 ...) FIND-CLASS (9 4 2 2 7 ...) FIND-CLASS ...) NIL NIL NIL) 21:29:05 I'm getting good at this game 21:29:46 I bet that's because find-class in CLISP is in "not the CL package" 21:31:15 it also reveals a bug in INTERNAL-NAME-P, which gets SB!XC wrong (because that's a nickname for SB-XC) 21:31:48 -!- phromo [i=phromo@c-cdcde455.015-359-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )"] 21:33:37 gsm4 [n=gsm4@pv138206.reshsg.uci.edu] has joined #lisp 21:35:09 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:36:35 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 21:38:57 The bootstrap-targeted stuff in PLOT nicely takes care of this kind of issues, I suspect.. 21:39:40 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:39:43 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has left #lisp 21:39:49 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4599.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:42:52 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:43:50 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 21:44:26 lispm [n=joswig@g224126095.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:45:32 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0C876.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:19 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6BF7D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 21:52:22 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:55:42 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:59:04 -!- lispm [n=joswig@g224126095.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 22:00:47 sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:01 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F3A4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:02:57 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:01 hi 22:05:11 continuing my tradition of using #lisp as a personal citeseer; does anyone have any idea on knowledge representation? in particular, I'm interested in a solution that might take a document, and after building an statistical frequency table of its text, can classify the document into some "category" 22:05:48 goblin [n=goblin@89.136.174.25] has joined #lisp 22:05:51 fusss: montezuma ? 22:05:56 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 22:06:05 yay got lisp up and running and switched to stumpwm now :) 22:06:10 any of you use it? 22:06:26 goblin: see #stumpwm 22:06:33 just left there :P 22:06:34 it doesn't even have to be able to classify, I can probably make do with a predicate that can take some abstract representation of the document and return truth values when mapped against a table of "categories" (or maybe return a probabilistic proximity value or something.) 22:08:28 fe[nl]ix: i know of montezuma, but there is some more intelligent KR system/framework called "Conceptual Spaces". More semantic in nature. i'm just fishing for ideas on what else is out there. 22:08:55 *fusss* is fully aware he is turning to a very pragmatic and determined gavino :-P 22:10:29 Ideally, the fasl loader should keep the package <-> compilation-unit-modifying-package information. 22:11:28 Beket [n=rty@ppp206-239.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:11:36 With a way to tell it "this compilation unit shouldn't be related to this package anymore", of course. 22:12:09 fusss: tons and tons has been written about document classification (I haven't read any of it, but I know it's out there) 22:13:59 This would be an important step towards robust module reloading, I think. 22:14:05 hefner: yep. except document classification/categorization seems like the holly grail of pragmatic AI and every scientific discipline has an interest in it. The general problems of "Pattern Recognition" can take so many different shades and shapes, it's sorta hard to know where to begin. 22:14:29 -!- febeling [n=febeling@p5B25BABD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 22:14:30 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:15:20 felix^^` [n=user@dslb-094-223-082-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:39 -!- smolyn|away is now known as smolyn 22:16:41 fusss: I'd think you could start by using words as features and trying the same sort of Bayesian techniques used to filter spam 22:17:18 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-025-060.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 22:17:33 -!- goblin [n=goblin@89.136.174.25] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.7-dev"] 22:19:04 -!- felix^^ [n=user@dslb-088-075-056-057.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:19:30 yes, and I would probably need to chain/cluster the application of the classification predicate. spam filtering is a boolean operation (maybe with multiple real values, as a proximity/probability) but categorization should return a definite category ID, not truth or false. 22:19:51 will dig into it some more, just wanted to troll #lisp into brainstorming with me :-P 22:20:26 -!- jao [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:20:43 if you have a fixed, small number of categories, train a classifier for each one, run them all, and pick the category with the highest probability 22:20:47 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:20:59 this has the basic essentials, in case there is another fool in here besides me: http://www.bhasha.com/resources/resourcesDocCategorization.html 22:21:30 hefner: that sounds good actually. thanks :-) 22:22:37 ltriant [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:23:00 Chronona1t [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:33 -!- Chrononaut [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:25:31 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:29:34 -!- Chronona1t is now known as Chrononaut 22:30:34 cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 22:33:26 dgou [n=dgou@67.217.140.59] has joined #lisp 22:33:36 -!- dgou [n=dgou@67.217.140.59] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:34:04 -!- felix^^` [n=user@dslb-094-223-082-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:35:33 -!- dacm [n=dan@93-97-191-231.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["I was Lord_Odd_Eye"] 22:36:00 HG` [n=wells@203-109-202-78.static.ihug.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:47 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:47 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:39:49 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 22:40:28 -!- trowl [n=nonamme@h-67-101-29-243.nycmny83.dynamic.covad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:40:36 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 22:44:52 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["We have joy, we have fun, we have Linux on a Sun..."] 22:45:47 -!- gsm4 [n=gsm4@pv138206.reshsg.uci.edu] has left #lisp 22:47:49 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-177-220.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 22:49:05 -!- dto-3 is now known as dto 22:52:27 hi. who can i talk to about getting lisppaste bot added to my channel? my email to lisppaste-requests@common-lisp.net bounced. my mailing list is already hosted there, but we use lisppaste more 22:53:30 the channel i want to add it to is #rlx 22:53:36 a common lisp roguelike game engine 22:53:40 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-84-44-171-250.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 22:53:45 we often need to paste backtraces so it would be great. 22:54:43 jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has joined #lisp 22:55:25 yipstar [n=user@cpe-74-64-96-182.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:07 dto: talk to nyef (iirc) for lisppaste, but if the mail bounced then talk to drewc for clnet admin 23:00:38 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:27 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@209-161-239-9.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 23:01:48 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:04:37 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:05:59 kpreid: thanks, i will contact them 23:07:47 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 23:09:32 jfactor [n=jfactor@student164-103.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 23:12:39 -!- sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:12:42 drewc: i sent you a query with some info. i guess you're not around, perhaps we'll chat later. ciao 23:15:28 -!- yahooooo6 [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Killed by Md (broken bot, please contact staff)] 23:16:17 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:35 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-224-54.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:22:12 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-219-94.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:29:00 -!- Beket [n=rty@ppp206-239.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:30:43 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-9-233.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:31:17 Where can I find out description of (defun (setf xxx) ...)? 23:31:36 i think it's the same as defsetf 23:31:42 but i could be wrong 23:32:45 -!- yipstar [n=user@cpe-74-64-96-182.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:32:49 dto: I know they are very similar. If they are exactly the same as you say, I can just see the manual of defsetf. I will take a look at it. thanks. 23:34:44 tomoyuki28jp: actually, it's the doc of DEFUN. 23:34:58 tomoyuki28jp: notice how DEFUN takes a function name, and (setf x) is a function name. 23:35:43 pjb: yes. the order of parameter will be different than usual though. 23:36:00 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-217.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:36:11 (setf x) functions take the new value as first argument. 23:38:25 pjb: yes, thanks :) 23:39:55 -!- fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-38-118.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:40:47 it takes allot of engineering foresight to come up with user-extensible assignment. i wonder if it's all a lisp invention or something pioneered by another, now dead/obscure language. 23:41:52 it has to be a dynamic language feature; the algol family always translated assignment into pointer magic + moves 23:41:59 -!- HG` [n=wells@203-109-202-78.static.ihug.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:42:39 (defun (setf xxx) ...) works, but (defmacro (setf xxx) ...) doesn't. So there is no way to use (setf (xxx args) ...) to pass a place as a parameter and replace it with new value? 23:42:46 witness the large type-dispatching case statement to translate assignment to IR/assembly in all algol-type languages 23:43:40 -!- smolyn is now known as smolyn|away 23:43:45 tomoyuki28jp: it's DEFUN that accepts (setf xxx) as a valid function name, not defmacro 23:44:18 fusss: yes. so there is no way, correct? 23:44:22 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087F72F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:45:00 defun's first argument is "function-name", defmacro's is "name" 23:47:31 you can wrap a macro around assigning-forms, as long as the actual assignment is carried out by a SETF function or any of the assignment primitives. 23:48:08 -!- drakej [n=Fred@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has left #lisp 23:48:31 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:50:08 if you find yourself extending SETF allot, you probably are not using the standard data-structures to their full benefit. 23:52:16 tomoyuki28jp, there, probably, are more alternatives that you'd like: DEFMACRO, two forms of DEFSETF and DEFINE-SETF-EXPANDER. 23:52:32 http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/05_ab.htm 23:53:09 crink [n=crink@210.110.159.199] has joined #lisp 23:53:34 deepfire: thanks! 23:55:27 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@212.1.228.48] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:56:56 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-217.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:57:05 *deepfire* craves for a way to tell ASDF to compile and load a single system, without its dependencies. 23:57:10 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has left #lisp 23:57:13 cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 23:57:33 In the :force t way. 23:58:39 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:40 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:58:41 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 23:58:41 Hmm, probably just delete the system's component and reload? 23:59:27 No, that wouldn't force recompilation. 23:59:55 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)]