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01:08:16 <nyef> clhs simple-array
01:08:16 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_smp_ar.htm
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01:37:07 *fusss* loving xach's SBCL tshirt
01:37:46 <fusss> first documented case of sbcl schwag? (i might have seen danb wear one, circa '03)
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04:07:19 <mjonsson> can someone remind me the short way to ask the reader to evaluate something as it reads?
04:09:26 <fusss> #.foo?
04:09:51 <fusss> the reader always evaluate unless you tell it not to
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04:10:04 <fusss> err, forget that last part
04:10:19 <mjonsson> yes, thanks, that is it :)
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05:09:22 <beach> Good morning.
05:09:28 <holycow> hi
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05:41:42 <pkhuong> wow. Larrabee will have 32 * 512 Kb = 2 KB's worth of vector registers (!?). That's certainly one way to avoid the need for scratchpad memory (:
05:44:09 <fusss> my first case of substance overwhelming a search for "fluff". tried to google "Dynamic Scheduling", as in project management, got overrun with compiler research texts (i.e. instruction scheduling by parallelizing hardware) heh :-P
05:44:46 <fusss> more .ppt, less .ps
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05:45:49 <pkhuong> erh, 32 * 512 b, that is.
05:45:50 <fusss> dynamic scheduling could also be done through code instrumentation and profiling, not just hardware (in case someone catches me "being wrong on the internet" ;-)
05:46:19 <hefner> stassats: I believe that's a bad interaction between double buffering and patterns. Solution: Fix double buffering.
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05:52:49 <p_l> wasn't one cpu called for having few bytes of memory and 2^16 registers? :D
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05:53:48 <p_l> (memory got mapped in a way that caused it look like registers to programmers)
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07:21:57 <kami-> good morning
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07:33:23 <mvilleneuve> good morning
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08:02:51 <saikat> This is maybe not directly related to lisp, but I am currently SSHing into a server where my code resides and running a lisp web application there from Emacs Slime (using SBCL).  This works fine (and i can navigate to the web app), but as soon as I close my SSH connection, the site goes down.  I tried running slime in the background using bg and I also tried to use disown to detach it from the terminal, but all to no use.  How do 
08:06:20 <mejja> screen?  http://www.gnu.org/software/screen/
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08:06:38 <saikat> ah i will try that thanks
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08:17:43 <BrianRice> saikat: there is also detachtty (made for exactly this problem and much simpler than screen)
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08:30:04 <aerique> rsynnott: how's commonqt on windows going?
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08:33:23 <plage> Good morning.
08:33:43 <mvilleneuve> hello plage
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09:01:50 <elderK> Hey again, Lisp people.
09:01:55 <tcr> I just discovered a wonderfully kafkaesque English word: unputdownable
09:02:11 <elderK> I was wondering if I could talk with someone in private, about whether or not Lisp is something that I should dedicate time into, judging on the things I like to craete.
09:02:17 <elderK> s/ae/ea
09:02:22 <tcr> Why in private?
09:02:43 <elderK> Not sure, really.
09:02:59 <tcr> If you do not ask in public you may miss someone who did something similiar what you want to do already
09:03:23 <elderK> Well, I tend to write systems-level stuff. Kernel stuff, drivers, linkers. When I'm not doing those things, I'm usually playing with new data structures or, writing little games (think Zeldaish) or playing with OpenGL.
09:03:29 <elderK> Good point, tcr.
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09:03:58 <araujo> lisp is the language for you
09:04:20 <H4ns> minion: tell elderk about movitz
09:04:21 <minion> elderk: have a look at movitz: Movitz is a Common Lisp implementation that targets the x86 PC architecture "on-the-metal". http://www.cliki.net/movitz
09:05:00 <aerique> elderK: yes, you should dedicate time to Lisp
09:05:29 <H4ns> elderK: lisp is for you because you can find all kinds of interesting stuff, from system level to abstract high-level applications that are written in lisp and that you'll be able to understand.
09:06:27 <elderK> For example, say, I was building a little Zelda game. What would make Lisp more effective for this task, than say, C? Other than a lot of handy builtin things, like, lists, property lists, hash tables and such.
09:06:45 <tcr> elderK: a few months ago, nyef was hacking direct communication with some of his usb devices in SBCL, he also writes an emulator every three moon phases
09:06:56 <tcr> elderK: dto is working on http://dto.github.com/notebook/rlx.html a rogue-like game
09:07:13 <tcr> elderK: and lot of people are doing opengl stuff with CL, _3b for example
09:07:34 <H4ns> elderK: if you look at rlx closely, you'll also see that it contains a whole new prototype based object system which intergrates nicely with the language.
09:08:16 <madnificent> elderK: in lisp, you'll be able to code what you want to say, therefore keeping the fun in programming and thus giving you a better shot at finishing it :)
09:08:29 <madnificent> elderK: allso, the OpenGL bindings are rather good
09:09:31 <elderK> How about something say, like an M68020 emulator?
09:09:50 <madnificent> elderK: more abstractions to be created -> easier to build emulators
09:10:06 <elderK> I figure a benefit of CL over C, is that you spend more time solving the problem - rather than fighting with the technical aspects (say, mm or... storage things...)
09:10:11 <madnificent> elderK: remember, you're asking this in #lisp, not in #c, they probably wouldn't agree :)
09:10:28 <elderK> Well, no. But most C people I've met claim C is god. Formerly, I was included in that group.
09:10:43 <p_l> elderK: nyef is currently building an alpha emulator. His progress is a good example, I think :D
09:10:57 <elderK> But there are obviously things in which each language is suited. Perl for example is KICK ASS for all kinds of string stuff. It would take AGES in C to do the same thing, if you didn't use PCRE or something.
09:11:02 <araujo> God does not exist
09:11:47 <jdz_> araujo: can you prove it?
09:12:00 <H4ns> elderK: perl is superior to c in being a whole lot more expressive.  c is nothing more than a macro assembler in disguise, and it is kind of moot to discuss its merits over, say, lisp.
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09:12:28 <elderK> It's just, I keep thinking in the procedural mindset. Create these functions, these structures - Create these functions to do this, that and this other thing with these structures... But, in th eend, I figure i tis the same with Lisp - except with Lisp, you can miminize the amount of repititve crap through the use of clever macros and suchlike. Correct?
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09:12:31 <H4ns> "but it is faster" is about the only thing that c has in its pocket
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09:12:55 <araujo> jdz_, you only need to prove it if you claim it exists
09:13:03 <H4ns> elderK: nothing wrong with writing procedural programs in lisp
09:13:28 <araujo> well, this will take us to other road, but i was basically referring to elderK comment :)
09:13:29 <madnificent> elderK: amongst other things, lisp allows you to do that, yes :)
09:13:31 <H4ns> elderK: you can use many different styles, and mix them as you require.
09:13:33 <elderK> :) I'm not trying to say C is better than Lisp, honestly. It's just, I'm trying really hard to see in the Lisp mindset. I rented a book from the city library about CL - too. So, I'll be spending a large chunk reading through that :). It's just, please, keep in mind, I've spent ten years in C - I guess some things are strong habit now.
09:13:34 <jdz_> araujo: not really. the statement "something does not exist" implies the existence of that something
09:13:46 <araujo> jdz_, ?
09:13:51 <jdz_> araujo: otherwise, how can there be a name for something that does not exist?
09:13:59 <araujo> jdz_, easy.. invented
09:14:06 <araujo> people invent things
09:14:08 <araujo> ideas
09:14:18 <H4ns> elderK: i'd recommend that you stop asking how to get a lisp mindset and just acquire it by practice instead.
09:14:19 <araujo> fiction
09:14:33 <madnificent> elderK: lisp does procedural, functional, oo, declarative (if you really want) and mostly anything else you come across...
09:14:40 <jdz_> you know, there are two kinds of fascists: fascists and antifascists
09:14:51 <H4ns> elderK: read a book, start coding. have no fear to apply what you know, you can always improve your style while you learn.
09:14:52 <araujo> ?
09:15:01 <jdz_> araujo: so poving that something exists or proving that something does not exist is actually the same
09:15:09 <araujo> jdz_, not the channel for this
09:15:12 <p_l> minion: tell elderK about that dead-sexy-book
09:15:12 <minion> elderK: i don't know what you're referring to
09:15:18 <madnificent> elderK: so whatever route you think you might take in the future, lisp should be able to provide you with the support you need to code in the manner you want :)
09:15:18 <p_l> damn
09:15:25 <jdz_> araujo: this channel is as good for proofs as any other
09:15:27 <p_l> minion: tell elderK about pcl
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09:15:28 <minion> elderK: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
09:15:37 <tcr> jdz_: No it's off topic
09:15:41 <araujo> hah
09:15:43 <p_l> elderK: It's a good book to get a foothold into Lisp :)
09:15:43 <araujo> of course it is
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09:16:08 <araujo> jdz_, but you are wrong .. but this is off-topic here
09:16:14 <elderK> :) aye p_l, I've been reading through it :)
09:16:17 <H4ns> araujo: i recognize that you are in a lot of channels that may appreciate your standpoint more than this one.
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09:16:48 <araujo> H4ns, kind of got dragged into this conversation.. but no more, it is pretty much off-topic
09:17:10 <elderK> I don't know, I guess it's silly. It's just, I don't know. :P It's hard for me to explain. Fear of learning something new, while at the same time, being excited and not fearful :P Just, worried about whetehr it is worthwhile. Whether I will be able to pick it up.
09:17:12 <elderK> But you are right :)
09:17:16 <elderK> Just give it an honest shot.
09:17:16 <elderK> :0
09:17:38 <elderK> :) I'll probably point some links to you guys, sometime, asking for feedback - advice on how I could improve something, for example.
09:17:56 <H4ns> elderK: rest assured that your mind will be messed up and you'll never really enjoy writing c programs again.
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09:18:22 <madnificent> H4ns: I found that idea frightening
09:18:24 *p_l* actually enjoyed hist last bout of C (and that was after not doing anything in C for a long time)
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09:18:35 <pkhuong> H4ns: You just reach cpp/m4 much more quickly ;)
09:18:39 <H4ns> i was exaggerating.
09:18:45 <madnificent> LoL
09:18:46 <H4ns> pkhuong: mhh, lovely!
09:19:04 <p_l> fuck, no m4!
09:19:09 <MrSpec> Hello
09:19:15 *p_l* got scarred after debugging autotools fuckups
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09:20:07 <tombom> what's the best way to set up a cl thing on windows + be able to use stuff like opengl bindings
09:20:20 <pkhuong> I've seen beautiful things done with m4 and make; a blog engine, for example.
09:21:47 <p_l> pkhuong: Oh, sure. It's just that... autotools leave a bad taste. Make + few simple scripts are good enough
09:22:05 <p_l> pkhuong: and since creation of pkg-config, most of autotools are not longer needed
09:22:25 <p_l> tombom: from "free" lisps, I had some success with ECL
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09:22:52 <p_l> tombom: just download a stable release... -current sometimes has problems compiling itself :3
09:23:04 <tombom> hmm ok thanks i'll have a look
09:29:01 <elderK> Has anyone had much experience using CL-SDL ?
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09:29:39 <p_l> elderK: I played a little (read: initialized and checked if it will crash like java under XMonad). Worked nicely, but I haven't tested it much
09:30:06 <elderK> Thank's p_l.
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09:31:57 <elderK> lispbuilder-sdl seems pretty nice.
09:32:06 <elderK> and, seems to support the major platforms :)
09:37:25 <p_l> elderK: ah right, I was thinking of lispbuilder ^^;
09:37:46 <aerique> aah, cl-sdl.  where'd Matthew Danish go anyway?
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09:48:43 <elderK> cl-sdl seems like it was put on hold at the 30% mark
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09:53:01 <H4ns> elderK: you'll need to get used to working with underdocumented, incomplete libraries :)
09:53:41 <emacs-dw`> elderK: don't do it! -- if you ever have to use C, why be miserable for the rest of your life?
09:54:13 <elderK> :P lol
09:54:23 <elderK> h4ns: or build my own bindings :)
09:54:36 <H4ns> elderK: right
09:54:49 <elderK> lol, groveller.
09:54:50 <elderK> nice name.
10:00:18 <emacs-dw`> elderK: at least now you can pretend you don't spend most of your time greenspunning to break out of C's cripplement.
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10:08:55 <elderK> greenspunning?
10:10:04 <emacs-dw`> adding ad-hoc poorly implemented features of common-lisp to broken languages (see Greenspun's tenth rule)
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10:11:07 <elderK> :P I wouldn't do that in the first place.
10:11:10 <tombom> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?GreenspunsTenthRuleOfProgramming
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10:12:23 <emacs-dw`> elderK: Did you ever want to write something the Right Way, and find yourself blocked at every turn until you just settled for doinng it Ugly?
10:12:41 <emacs-dw`> elderK: s/doinng/doing
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10:14:28 <emacs-dw`> elderK: "i just wish C let me..." doesn't happen in Lisp; you just write it.
10:14:36 <madnificent> elderK: I'd appreciate it if there were more bindings to various libraries << so off you go, go read lisp and go build some \o/
10:14:40 <cmm> stop dumping on C, guys, it a fine language for what it is
10:14:55 <madnificent> cmm: but it is assembly++
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10:15:00 <cmm> C++, on the other hand...
10:15:04 <cmm> madnificent: yeah, so?
10:15:30 <emacs-dw`> cmm: assembly is so much cleaner though.
10:15:36 <madnificent> cmm: just responding with a lame comment (wait, I have a lamer one!)
10:15:42 <elderK> Hey guys, when it comes to FFI - should I use CFFI or UFFI? Or is it not such a clear-cut case?
10:15:46 <cmm> emacs-dw`: which one?
10:15:53 <antifuchs> elderK: cffi.
10:15:53 <pkhuong> elderK: don't use UFFI.
10:15:56 <antifuchs> hands-down
10:16:14 <madnificent> cmm: oh no, sorry, it wasn't at lisp... C++ < C  (and both languages agree on that!)
10:16:24 <elderK> I agree with that, too.
10:16:39 <elderK> C, is cool for what it's good for :P
10:16:53 <antifuchs> well, either cffi or a specific implementation's ffi (but that limits you to a single impl and sometimes isn't as convenient as cffi). don't use uffi (:
10:16:57 <elderK> C++, I just... dislike. It's liek a gross monstrosity of a hack of a hack on top of C, creating this gigantic superlanguage of conflicting ideas.
10:17:14 <elderK> I prefer ObjC over C++ any day.
10:17:36 <elderK> :P At least I can write my own Objective C runtime if I so wish :P
10:17:37 <emacs-dw`> cmm: doesn't porting lisp to your architecture solve the problem as well as porting C?
10:17:47 <cmm> OK, I seem to have started a boring offtopic discussion and I'm sorry about that.  now let's talk about lisp, mmkay?
10:18:39 <cmm> emacs-dw`: nope.  there are many contexts that call for a language where you look at a line of code and you know _precisely_ what it does
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10:19:08 <dan_b> good luck finding a suitable language for that, then
10:19:12 <emacs-dw`> cmm: that's the problem with C
10:19:17 <madnificent> cmm: that means there is a need for specifications, not for non-lisp...
10:19:24 <dan_b> I can never tell whether *p=2 is going to involve disk access or not
10:20:54 <cmm> well, let's just say it's a lot closer to the mark than any language that requires a managed runtime or is more expressive
10:21:43 <xristos> C is just glorified assembler
10:21:53 <xristos> too bad it went popular
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10:22:11 <elderK> dan_b, you can if it's C.
10:22:12 <elderK> :P
10:22:13 <elderK> not C++
10:22:20 <pkhuong> elderK: really?
10:22:25 <xristos> i was always of the opinion that ritchie should publicly apologise for the horrors he unleashed
10:22:29 <elderK> I freaking hate the proliferation of stupid operator overloading in C++
10:22:34 <xristos> but that has more to do with unix than C
10:22:39 <cmm> yes, if your operating system is simple enough
10:22:39 <elderK> pkhuong: No, not really. :P If there is a disk controller memory mapped, sure.
10:22:44 <dan_b> elderK: really, so how do I find out whether the page p points to is in memory?
10:22:46 <elderK> or, if you have some file mmaped.
10:22:46 <elderK> :;p
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10:22:55 <emacs-dw`> cmm: a lisp that allows unused runtime features to be stripped for embedded uses and such?
10:23:05 <pkhuong> elderK: or swap.
10:23:15 <elderK> Well aye, swap.
10:23:27 <elderK> :P To be fair though, in the work I do mostly, swap is not a consideration. Because, well, there is no swap :p
10:23:36 <cmm> emacs-dw`: too expressive
10:23:36 <elderK> Most of my stuff is done with embedded mcus :)
10:24:12 <elderK> But, you both make a good point.
10:24:19 <elderK> However, couldn't you say the same thing about Lisp?
10:24:29 <pkhuong> yes. That wasn't dan_b's point.
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10:27:05 <elderK> Whether *p=2 has a disk access or not?
10:27:24 <elderK> :P In any case, C++ *thumbs DOWN*
10:27:25 <elderK> :P
10:28:15 <pkhuong> I'm sure you can scroll up and read.
10:28:51 <emacs-dw`> elderK: It is easy to overlook the fact that it is /possible/ to write correct programs in Lisp.  But yes, depending on where one is coming from, that can be a big one.
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10:30:31 <emacs-dw`> http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/defective.html
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10:42:34 <emacs-dwim> cmm: before movitz was really ready, i was working on an emacs on the metal using assembler (IA32) and lisp (living the dream), which did give me exact knowledge of the interaction with the hardware.  For a more portable system though, i would have liked to port the low-level part using a lisp-based cross-assembler.  It just seems to me that dealing with C's lack of macros is a case of premature-optimisation compared to few custom
10:42:34 <emacs-dwim> declarations to strip unused/expensive lisp features.
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11:06:55 <elderK> hey guys, about types in lisp - say (unsigned-byte 32)
11:07:00 <elderK> would that create a 32bit unsigned integer for my use?
11:07:41 <plage> elderK: create?
11:08:16 <elderK> :) wrong word.
11:08:20 <elderK> I don't know precisely what I mean.
11:08:33 <elderK> Say, I create a variable, (defvar *some-variable* nil)
11:08:45 <elderK> Is there a way that I can specify it's type, specifically?
11:08:48 <schme> No.
11:08:58 <plage> schme: no?
11:09:15 <Zhivago> elder: You can constrain its type with proclaim.
11:09:37 <schme> plage: Yes, no. To my knowledge (unsigsned-byte 32) does not "create a 32bit uint for my use"
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11:09:49 <Zhivago> elder: But, the onus is on you to adhere to those constraints.
11:10:28 <Zhivago> You may be confusing types and classes -- a type is a set of values -- a class describes implementation.
11:10:36 <plage> elderK: (declaim (type '(unsigned-byte 32) *some-variable*))
11:10:57 <Zhivago> You probably don't want that quote there.
11:12:31 <elderK> :) thanks Zhivago, schme, plage.
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11:12:51 <schme> plage: That does not really create a uint 32. So we're back to No.
11:13:06 <schme> Now to make some coffee.
11:13:07 <Zhivago> elder: What that declaim says is "I promise to never bind anything that is not of the type (unsigned-byte 32) to *some-variable*".
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11:15:56 <emacs-dwim> sbcl is nice about checking types when optimize is set at (or (>= safety 2) (>= safety speed 1)), if you happen to be using that.
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11:16:51 <plage> Zhivago: right, thanks.
11:17:04 <Harag> hello ppls
11:17:17 <plage> schme: indeed, nad that's why I asked what "create" was supposed to mean.
11:17:22 <plage> hll Hrg
11:17:33 <schme> Oh.
11:18:41 <Harag> I get a "slot ... missing from object" ....what would cause this?
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11:19:04 <Xof> asking for a slot's value when no slot of that name is present in an object
11:19:14 <Harag> the slot is present
11:19:22 <plage> I bet it isn't
11:19:27 <Harag> lol
11:19:49 <Xof> tell you what: investigate further, and if you are 100% certain that you are correct, investigate further still
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11:21:46 <Harag> ok let me check again but there is only 3 attributes in the object and the make-instance accepts values for the attribute
11:21:56 <Harag> 3 slots i mean
11:22:09 <dan_b> bet your slot name is in the wrong package
11:22:24 <plage> Harag: what happens when you (inspect (make-instance '...))
11:22:38 <Harag> dan_b
11:22:41 <plage> er, (describe ...)
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11:22:45 <Harag> i think that might be the problem
11:22:54 <plage> Harag: see, we told you so.
11:22:58 <Harag> lol
11:23:19 <Harag> do I have to export all the slot names?
11:23:29 <Xof> no
11:23:33 <plage> Harag: you don't have to export *any* slot name.
11:23:36 <Xof> you just have to use the correct name, not the wrong one
11:23:41 <plage> heh
11:23:53 <Harag> and that would be?
11:23:54 <Xof> also you should learn to believe what your implementation tells you, rather than assume you know better
11:24:15 <Xof> the name of the slot, not some other symbol which happens to have the same symbol-name
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11:24:36 <plage> Harag: use a symbol with an explicit package prefix, the right one.
11:24:43 <dan_b> goos style would probably suggest that you don't use the slots directly from another package, but instead define accessors for the external interface and export those
11:24:56 <dan_b> er, good style, even
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11:25:03 <plage> goose style
11:25:07 <dan_b> as always, there are exceptions
11:25:19 <dan_b> oy, none of your sauce
11:25:24 <Harag> dan_b agreed
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11:25:38 <Harag> thanx ppls
11:25:58 <plage> OK, I probably should prepare my Lisp talk at 14:00 (in 1.5 hours)
11:26:09 <plage> ywlcm Hrg
11:26:22 <plage> Harag: while you are at it, learn to use abbrev-mode
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11:27:59 <Harag> k will google it
11:31:11 <mvilleneuve> plage: so that things like "lol" gets automatically expanded?
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11:31:40 <plage> mvilleneuve: "lol" "ppls" "k" "thanx", etc.
11:33:48 <mvilleneuve> ah yes, some of those are actually more useful
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11:39:38 <Zhivago> Why not just learn how to write like a non-moron?
11:40:08 <plage> Zhivago: those are not mutually exclusive.
11:41:58 <plage> Zhivago: Given all the administrative emails I type in French in one day, I save a considerable amount of time using abbrevs, especially since some French words can be pretty tricky to type on a US keyboard.
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11:43:51 <plage> I think of it as keyboard stenography.
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11:59:27 <dlowe> plage: you don't just change keyboards?
12:00:41 <dlowe> elderK: why do you need a 32-bit integer so badly? It's usually nicer to let the implementation take care of the proper numeric type
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12:05:57 <Krystof> jsnell: I don't suppose you've ever written a fasl fop analysis tool?
12:08:11 <jsnell> afraid not
12:09:03 <jsnell> unless adding some debug output to the fasloader counts :-)
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12:10:10 <Krystof> I have a mysterious case here where some bytes in xcl/sbcl xc-fasls differ by 4
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12:10:40 <Krystof> I've been doing well so far at debugging differences without actually writing a fasl analyser, just by Thinking Very Hard
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12:15:23 <jsnell> that's scary. you could at least turn on *show-fops-p* and pretend to be a mere mortal
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12:18:02 <Krystof> I exaggerate.  So far Thinking Very Hard just means "where did this gensym come from?"
12:19:22 <Krystof> oh, hey, look, these bytes that differ by 4 actually refer to numbers that differ by 4
12:19:27 <Krystof> I wonder what they're used for
12:20:21 <madnificent> drewc: I solved the expansion-thing without a code-walker, due to some extra limitations in the needed expansion :D
12:21:14 <mathrick> Krystof: what's xcl?
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12:21:54 <Krystof> mathrick: a Peter Graves project
12:22:03 <stassats> CL in C++
12:22:16 <Krystof> notably: a common lisp that compiles from gcc and doesn't segfault when you use the pretty-printer
12:22:19 <mathrick> oh, link to RTFM?
12:22:28 <mathrick> Krystof: heh
12:22:32 <stassats> minion: XCL?
12:22:33 <minion> XCL: XCL is a Common lisp implementation licensed under GPL. http://www.cliki.net/XCL
12:22:48 <stassats> there is no much to R
12:22:55 <mathrick> oh, that Peter Graves
12:23:24 <mathrick> having ABCL a bit more complete wouldn't hurt either
12:23:31 <Krystof> ABCL can compile sbcl too
12:23:35 <Krystof> what else do you need it for?
12:24:33 <stassats> mathrick: there are some people who continue to work on ABCL
12:24:40 <mathrick> running CL on a JVM
12:24:47 <mathrick> it's not a useless activity
12:25:03 <mathrick> stassats: good, last I looked it didn't seem to move very much
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12:34:00 <Krystof> ow ow ow
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12:34:28 <pkhuong> Were these good ows?
12:34:37 <Krystof> no
12:36:16 <Krystof> I come to the conclusion that the number that is different is an index into the constants vector (in other words, dumped there by dump-push from dump-code-component
12:36:35 <Krystof> this conclusion is largely based on the immediate proximity of a fop-misc-trap fop
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12:39:09 <Krystof> I don't even know how to begin debugging this
12:40:40 <fe[nl]ix> hello
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12:44:30 <Krystof> aha, no, I am wrong
12:44:56 <Krystof> the number in question which is different is in fact the code-length
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12:57:57 <plage> My Lisp talk to the LaBRI starts in a few minutes.  I might come here to show off specbot and/or minion.
12:58:42 <antifuchs> cool stuff. we'll try not to be too distracting (-:
12:58:57 <plage> You won't be visible most of the time.
12:58:58 <pkhuong> clhs +
12:58:59 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_pl.htm
12:59:00 <plage> But thanks
12:59:10 <pkhuong> Still working (:
12:59:25 <plage> whew!
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13:00:26 <xristos> ;   can't find type for specializer ETHER in
13:00:27 <xristos> ;   SB-PCL::PARAMETER-SPECIALIZER-DECLARATION-IN-DEFMETHOD.
13:00:31 <xristos> what can be wrong here
13:00:39 <xristos> the defmethod is right after defclass
13:01:09 <Xof> sbcl is a little bit bad about knowing about classes defined in the same file
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13:06:44 <lnostdal> i've noticed the same thing .. what i do is just add a "bootstrap-classes.lisp" entry early in the sequence of files loaded via asdf for a project .. the file contains empty class definitions like (defclass some-class () ())
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13:08:06 <Xof> might be better to fix the bug
13:08:43 <lnostdal> of course
13:09:21 <lnostdal> it feels c++'ish .. heh :)
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13:11:27 <xristos> i get 6 warnings per class def
13:11:57 <lnostdal> yeah
13:12:04 <xristos> and i have lots of classes ;p
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13:15:10 <elderK> mother of god,
13:15:19 <elderK> lisp and C really dont seem to like each other
13:15:22 <elderK> at least, via FFI
13:15:22 <elderK> :p
13:15:23 <elderK> it's crazy
13:15:28 <elderK> at least, CLISP's FFI
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13:15:34 <H4ns> elderK: can you please use one line per sentence.  thanks.
13:15:52 <lnostdal> i've found cffi to be quite good, elderK
13:18:32 <lnostdal> (cffi:foreign-funcall "strlen" :string "Hello C World!" :uint) => 14
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13:23:16 <fe[nl]ix> Xof: ping
13:23:59 <elderK> Well, aye.
13:24:07 <elderK> It's just, C-structures in Lisp.
13:24:15 <mathrick> clhs progn
13:24:15 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progn.htm
13:27:10 <lnostdal> http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Foreign-Structure-Types.html http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/defcstruct.html , elderK ..   this is always tedious, it is possible to automate in some cases though
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13:31:06 <p_l|backup> elderK: you can automate generating CFFI wrappers with SWIG, but you might have to copy&paste code from headers to swig interface file
13:33:20 <elderK> Cheers p_l
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13:35:59 <pkhuong> Xof: ok, so some autopar on every/map/reduce would be easy, actually.
13:38:17 <mathrick> hmm, are default arguments evaluated during definition time, or during invocation (ie. are those initvals or initforms)?
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13:39:46 <pkhuong> mathrick: default arguments? For optional/keyword arguments? They're evaluated during invocation; you can use previous variables in the default value forms.
13:39:57 <stassats> clhs defclass
13:39:57 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm
13:40:12 <mathrick> pkhuong: yes, that
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13:41:25 <mathrick> pkhuong: what do you mean by "previous variables" though?
13:42:38 <stassats> (lambda (x &opt (y (* x 2))))
13:44:19 <kuwabara> With LOOP, is there a way to consume elements at will from a list (I need to consume a variable number of elements on each iteration) ?
13:44:56 <H4ns> kuwabara: you may be able to use a custom function in the BY clause
13:45:38 <mathrick> stassats: ahh
13:45:39 <mathrick> thanks
13:45:39 <H4ns> kuwabara: (loop for foo on bar by (lambda (rest) #| perform custom advance function |#))
13:45:53 <stassats> do you want also to destructure them?
13:46:23 <kuwabara> H4ns: thanks
13:46:48 <mathrick> kuwabara: you could also look at ITER, which has more generalised drivers
13:46:49 *H4ns* smells code that will be hard to understand  :)
13:46:53 <matimago> (loop with current = list while current for bunch = (random (length current)) for items = (subseq current 0 bunch) do (setf current (subseq current bunch)) do ...)
13:47:33 <matimago> or s/(subseq current bunch)/(nthcdr bunch current)/
13:49:56 <kuwabara> matimago: a bit too imperative for my taste, but it seems to be the correct solution.
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13:50:32 <H4ns> kuwabara: why use loop then?
13:50:46 <H4ns> kuwabara: a tail recursive function will look much nicer anyway.
13:50:50 <H4ns> kuwabara: (in this case)
13:51:01 <kuwabara> H4ns: you are right.
13:52:31 <stassats> but with tco it won't be portable, if that matters
13:52:37 <H4ns> stassats: hu?
13:53:23 <H4ns> stassats: as far as i know, only tail call optimization is not mandatory.  tail calls are still allowed and portable, but on many implementations, they'll consume stack space.
13:54:01 <stassats> that's what i meant
13:54:43 <stassats> can't type on this tiny keyboard
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13:58:36 <elderK> Later folks!
13:58:43 <sphex> hey. any idea where to find documentation on Flavors?
13:58:59 <pkhuong> the cmu's AI and lisp FTP.
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13:59:20 <H4ns> sphex: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=28697.28698
14:00:44 <sphex> H4ns: hrm.. is that free?
14:01:02 <H4ns> sphex: you need an acm web account to access it
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14:29:37 <Xof> pkhuong: sounds interesting.  What about (map-into a #'+ b c)? :-)
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14:34:20 <pkhuong> Xof: (match-node (node) ((map-into dst (or '+ #'+) x y) '(par-add-into dst x y))) (:
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14:36:04 <pkhuong> every is compiler-macro'ed away a bit too soon, and replace/subseq works, except that the transforms for subseq fire first.
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15:29:21 <deego> I have been trying for several weeks ( I think) to clbuild install perfectstorm, but its website always refuses connection.  Do others have the same experience?
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15:34:10 <tcr> Is anyone here who can speak Romanian?
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15:44:01 <blandest> tcr: I can :)
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15:50:46 <mega1> mgr: around?
15:53:25 <fe[nl]ix> tcr: me to
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15:58:54 <Fade> 'morning
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16:27:09 <MrSpec> Hello
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16:50:21 <Ogedei> does SBCL use a separate pointer stack or some other way of distinguishing pointers from unboxed values when GC-ing?
16:51:00 <mega1> Ogedei: depends on the platform
16:51:22 <Ogedei> is this stuff documented anywhere?
16:52:25 <mega1> <http://sbcl-internals.cliki.net/number stack>
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16:52:52 <mega1> http://sbcl-internals.cliki.net/Registers
16:53:02 <mega1> <http://sbcl-internals.cliki.net/control stack>
16:53:59 <mega1> also see the "precise and conservative collectors" section in http://www.cons.org/cmucl/doc/gc-tuning.html
16:54:00 <Ogedei> thanks a lot!
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16:58:12 <Ogedei> i assume the x86-64 port isn't meant when these refer to x86? (as in, it doesn't have the register shortage, and thus doesn't need the conservative collector)
16:58:46 <mega1> true, but it's still conservative
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16:59:02 <mega1> nobody cared enough, I guess
16:59:20 <Ogedei> hah, i see
17:00:53 Russel-Athletic [n=engelzz@p508E4AE0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp
17:00:55 <Russel-Athletic> hiho
17:02:41 <Russel-Athletic> i just got a weird message when i compiled my file: COMPILE-FILE warned while performing #<COMPILE-OP nil {B2E5AE1} on one of my source files
17:02:44 <Russel-Athletic> what does this mean?
17:03:03 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit []
17:03:35 <stassats> you had a warning, scroll back to see it
17:04:02 <Russel-Athletic> oh only that? ok thanks
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17:04:42 <kami-> attila_lendvai: have you ever used dojo based layout containers in wui? (LayoutContainer, TabContainer etc.)
17:05:14 <attila_lendvai> kami-: i used them in the old ucw based gui
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17:06:52 <kami-> attila_lendvai: I'm trying to set up such a thing but the layout is somehow garbled. The 'client' part doesn't show up (seems to have height 0)
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17:08:15 <attila_lendvai> kami-: i remember fighting with something like that. you may need to install some css rules on body or something similar...
17:10:05 <kami-> attila_lendvai: will try yui's reset-fonts-grids.css
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17:15:46 *p_l|backup* has to patch SRM so it skips some tests on emulators >_>
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17:21:30 <MrSpec> what is the shortest way to delete list(1) which is in another list(2) if there are reapeted elements in this first list ? like: (((a . 2)(b . 3)) ((a . 3)(b .3)) ((a . 4)(b .5)))
17:21:44 <MrSpec> I'd like to delete sublist ((a .3) (b .3))
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17:26:53 <newlisper> MrSpec: Seems to be you'd be able to specify that your key is the first cons in one of the sublists... and maybe, in this case, use one of the alist functions.
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17:30:16 <MrSpec> is it possible to check if there is more than 1 elemenent on the list eg: more than 1 elem where ( = (cadr elem) 2)  ?
17:30:25 <MrSpec> or should I use dolist ?
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17:31:42 <stassats> clhs length
17:31:42 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_length.htm
17:31:45 <Fade> you could check to see if the car of the list is a cons.
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17:32:32 <Fade> in which case, you know it's a nested list.
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17:33:01 <MrSpec> Fade, all elements in this sublist are cons
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17:33:17 <MrSpec> its list of list of cons (dont know how to name it)
17:33:59 <stassats> i don't understand what you are asking
17:34:07 <Fade> me neither
17:34:20 <MrSpec> ok , I wil try to say it one more time :]
17:34:25 <MrSpec> will
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17:35:07 <Fade> you want to delete elements from a sublist in your list?
17:35:23 <newlisper> MrSpec: So you had two (b . 3)s, and you wanted to keep only one of them?
17:35:24 <MrSpec> no, I want to delete sublist
17:35:42 <pkhuong> search and subseq.
17:35:50 <MrSpec> in which are elements with the same value
17:36:05 <MrSpec> like (a .3 ) and ( c . 3)
17:36:16 <Fade> copy the list, except the elements you want to delete.
17:36:28 <Fade> s/list/tree
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17:36:35 <MrSpec> (((a . 2)(b . 3)) ((a . 3)(b .3)) ((a . 4)(b .5)))  -> (((a . 2)(b . 3))  ((a . 4)(b .5)))
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17:37:27 <MrSpec> copy hmm ok
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17:38:12 <koning_robot> filter through the top list, checking each of the alists to see if their values are all equal
17:38:25 <jho> is there any way to get the name of the current file? similiar to $0 in sh, perl, etc
17:38:40 <pjb> clhs *load-pathname*
17:38:41 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ld_pns.htm
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17:39:07 <jho> thanks :)
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17:41:34 <pjb> MrSpec: sublists are elements as anything else. (remove '(1 2 3) '((a b c) (1 2 3) (4 5 6)) :test (function equal))
17:42:03 <newlisper> Is there a function for returning the unique elements of a list?
17:42:09 <newlisper> That's really what he's looking for.
17:42:13 <pjb> clhs remove-duplicates
17:42:14 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_dup.htm
17:42:16 <newlisper> I am constructing a solution based on using adjoin.
17:42:29 <newlisper> Bingo.
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17:43:35 <newlisper> MrSpec: (remove-duplicates your-list :key #'(lambda (x) (cdr x)) :test #'equal)
17:43:47 <MrSpec> yeah it will be useful
17:43:54 <MrSpec> newlisper, O thx
17:44:06 <dlowe> might want to use #'rest instead of (lambda (x) blah blah blah)
17:44:08 <pjb> MrSpec: you may want to define your own equality predicate amongst your elements.  Then it will be easy to use CL functions.
17:44:35 <MrSpec> pjb, my own ? how ? :]
17:44:44 <MrSpec> using this lambda function ?
17:44:55 <newlisper> MrSpec: I used a silly lambda function.
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17:45:02 <newlisper> MrSpec: He's saying to reduce it.
17:45:12 <newlisper> (remove-duplicates x :key #'cdr :test #'equal)
17:45:13 <newlisper> or
17:45:16 <newlisper> (remove-duplicates x :key #'rest :test #'equal)
17:45:20 <pjb> (defun mylist-equal-p (u v) (some (lambda (a) (eql (cdr a) (assoc (car a) v))) u)) for example.
17:45:57 <MrSpec> ah, ok. Looks more pro :D thanks
17:46:11 <pjb> (remove-duplicates '(((a . 3) (b . 3)) ((a . 4) (b . 3)) ((c . 8) (d . 9))) :test (function mylist-equal-p))
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17:46:59 <pjb> This equality predicate will probably be useful in other parts of your domain.
17:47:11 <newlisper> pjb: Is this a first step towards making his special list a type?
17:47:12 <MrSpec> oh yes, thx
17:47:32 <pjb> newlisper: of course. Even if not formally, we must think of it as such.
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17:53:01 <moesenle> hi, does anybody know why assigning *readtable* within a file that is loaded,  does not affect the readtable of the repl (lisp implementation is sbcl)
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17:54:13 <pjb> moesenle: indeed, the readtable and the package are rebound by LOAD.
17:54:21 <pjb> clhs load
17:54:22 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm
17:55:02 <MrSpec> what is the dfifference  between mapcar and some ? am I wrong that they are very similar ? test something on every element of list ?
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17:55:23 <moesenle> ah. thanks. did look at *readtable* but not at load....
17:55:46 <pjb> They're similar, but some does a OR ; every does a AND.
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17:55:57 <pjb> There's also notany.
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17:56:18 <MrSpec> so mapcar with lambda  can do the same ?
17:56:47 <pjb> (some f l) <=> (reduce (lambda (x y) (or x y)) (mapcar f l))
17:57:03 <pjb> modulo some will stop calling f once it gets a true.
17:57:04 <MrSpec> ahh ok :
17:57:55 <FareWell> some might not evaluate for every list element
17:58:27 <MrSpec> it stops when first is true ?
17:58:34 <pjb> yes.
17:58:56 <pjb> (some (lambda (x) (print x) (oddp x)) '(2 4 5 6 9))
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17:59:49 <kami-> attila_lendvai: it is the <form> which wraps everything in the <body> which makes the content disappear.
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18:06:56 <attila_lendvai> kami-: hrm. what if you add stuff to it like width: 100%? does that help?
18:08:33 <kami-> attila_lendvai: the LayoutContainer which contains everything else has an id (e.g. #mail in http://www.dojotoolkit.org/files/step1_3.html)
18:09:33 <kami-> attila_lendvai: and the corresponding css has a selector 'html, body, #main' which expands that div
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18:10:12 <kami-> attila_lendvai: changing the selector to 'html, body, form, #main' solves the problem
18:10:31 <gonzojive> I just got CL working on the iPhone, if anyone is interested :)
18:10:40 <attila_lendvai> kami-: so, mimic that and make sure that stuff above your container has a width: 100% height: 100%...
18:11:18 <kami-> attila_lendvai: yes. will do. Is there an easily understandable example of an ajax call in the codebase?
18:11:36 <newlisper> gonzojive: That is awesome.  And probably the last reason knocked down for me not to grab an iPhone.
18:12:09 <kami-> gonzojive: which implementation?
18:12:40 <gonzojive> I got ECL to work for it at last
18:13:19 <attila_lendvai> kami-: for now ajax is turned off by default in our project, because it's not general enough to work just anywhere. the basic idea is that the js stack tells the server that it's ready to accept xml answers, where you can have dom-replacements, scripts to eval, custom data that you process, etc...
18:13:20 <rsynnott> gonzojive: official, or jailbroken?
18:13:25 <gonzojive> I should probably run a stress test to make sure it is truly working properly
18:13:31 <gonzojive> rsynnott: official
18:13:53 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
18:14:39 *attila_lendvai* just bought a samsung i900 to replace his still working ericsson t39m (10 years old, original battery, lasts for 3 days)
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18:15:19 *drewc* has the cheapest phone nokia makes.
18:15:25 <drewc> i keep dropping them in the river.
18:15:35 <stassats> attila_lendvai: what was the reason then?
18:15:41 <attila_lendvai> kami-: if you believe that the css rule should be part of the wui.css file then send a patch
18:16:06 <rsynnott> gonzojive: ah, interesting
18:16:12 <rsynnott> are you going to post details somewhere?
18:16:23 <attila_lendvai> stassats: it's slow, the new one was cheap with the subscription and i want to hack my phone (it's windows mobile, but linux runs on it)
18:16:44 *rsynnott* has an iphone, as it is convenient for being emailed when horrible servers die
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18:16:53 <kami-> attila_lendvai: no, I think it is obvious that anchored css selectors have to be changed. I will however test the effect of putting that css on the <form> tag
18:17:23 <kami-> attila_lendvai: maybe it's generally helpful (I often had layouts which were squashed together)
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18:18:27 <kami-> attila_lendvai: can I enable ajax easily (to play with it)?
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18:19:26 <drewc> attila_lendvai: you might be interested in this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/77636 <-- call/cc using the condition system and ANF.
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18:19:41 <attila_lendvai> kami-: see *default-ajax-enabled* and src/application/application.lisp
18:20:27 <p_l|backup> wouldn't ECL be considered to violate iPhone license agreement?
18:21:27 <rsynnott> p_l|backup: possibly
18:21:29 <kami-> gonzojive: will you write about it? I would like to do the same for my Symbian phone (and there was another person asking for that here)
18:21:53 <rsynnott> I wonder could you get away with it if you didn't allow the user of the app any access to compile or eval?
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18:23:45 <p_l|backup> rsynnott: if you released the app with compile/eval etc. uninterned and not accessible at _all_, then I think so...
18:23:46 <attila_lendvai> drewc: thanks. we also played with lambda based continuations, and plan to add them to cl-delico (to run things like file upload parsing through the connection multiplexer without having to turn the code unreadable/unmaintainable; no need for serializable continuations there)
18:23:59 *attila_lendvai* keeps the link, and goes to buy some food while he can
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18:25:09 <gonzojive> kami-, rsynnott: yeah, for sure.  I'll make sure it's actually working and then post the code/instructions
18:25:46 <kami-> gonzojive: thank you.
18:26:20 <drewc> attila_lendvai: these are not lambda-based .. they are flet based :)
18:27:05 <drewc> attila_lendvai: and the best part, IMO, is that the code is _not_ CPS transformed.
18:27:19 <gonzojive> stupid #iphonedev was raising hell about the superiority of manual memory management.  eek, I can't believe I associate with those freaks
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18:31:55 <drewc> attila_lendvai: in fact, i starting investigating this for pretty much the reasons you describe :)
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18:39:15 <p_l|backup> gonzojive: <insert rant about raving fanboyism here>
18:41:41 <p_l|backup> .... I have bad feelings about my state of mind for next 24h. Mad java marathon
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18:51:55 <tcr> attila_lendvai: There's someone on c.l.l asking for a walker library. Perhaps you want to advertise for cl-walker
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18:59:39 *madnificent* almost used cl-walker yesterday
19:00:09 <madnificent> attila_lendvai: I needed compiler-macro-functions, which I didn't see in cl-walker (I may have skipped over it)
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19:16:39 <trowl> hi
19:16:53 <jho> uh... http://paste.lisp.org/display/77639  anyone care to tell me what am I missing here?
19:17:01 <jho> i expected *test* to be empty at the end
19:17:12 <jho> as it seems to be, until i call *test*
19:17:37 <trowl> I just read about gcc 4.4.0 polyhedra optimizations. Does lisp have anything comparable to that?
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19:18:35 <tombom> i imagine it would be an implementation issue
19:18:50 <tombom> but i don't really know what they are!
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19:20:34 <stassats`> jho: remove is not desctrucrive
19:20:40 <dlowe> trowl: most of the sequence operations return your desired result instead of modifying them "in-place"
19:21:03 <stassats`> while delete is, however, you still need to assign your result back
19:21:19 <jho> stassats`: ah, thanks :)
19:22:19 <trowl>  mm.. where can I find information about the lisp compiler? I want to compare gcc's new paradigm NP-COMPLETE and lisp's compiler optimizations
19:22:23 <tcr> jho: What made you think it behaved the way you thought it would?
19:23:21 <tcr> trowl: Lisp compilers do not have state-of-the-art optimizations.
19:23:28 <jho> tcr: no idea really.. i'm kinda new to lisp :)
19:23:31 <trowl> speaking of which, sbcl didn't compile on amd64
19:23:34 <stassats`> by the way, is there in English language the difference between delete and remove which would imply that one is destructive?
19:23:45 <dlowe> stassats`: no :)
19:23:54 <tcr> stassats`: I don't think so. It was an arbitrary choice.
19:24:01 <trowl> don't forget erase
19:24:47 <trowl> purge
19:24:51 <tcr> trowl: If you're talking about HEAD, you should post the compilation error on sbcl-devel
19:24:56 <stassats`> ok, then interesting what are origins of these words
19:25:01 <trowl> ok
19:25:53 <dlowe> stassats`: Anglo-French remuver, removeir
19:26:14 <trowl> tcr: why not? ----> < tcr> Lisp compilers do not have state-of-the-art optimizations.
19:26:18 <dlowe> stassats`: and Latin deletus, to wipe out or destroy
19:26:34 <trowl> spanish remover
19:27:29 <tcr> trowl: Lack of resources.
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19:27:49 <stassats`> dlowe: thanks
19:27:59 <trowl> whose resources?
19:28:14 <trowl> computer? memory?
19:28:14 <lispm> try Stalin
19:28:23 <tcr> trowl: financial and human
19:28:28 <tcr> one implies the other
19:28:39 <trowl> oh...
19:28:44 <trowl> :(
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19:28:52 <lispm> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_(Scheme_implementation)
19:28:53 <stassats`> trowl: you can invest!
19:29:00 <tcr> And Lisp isn't fashionable anymore in academia
19:29:09 <tcr> so no state money either
19:29:35 <lispm> tcr: I guess the vendors still have some government contracts
19:29:53 <lispm> but the optimizations go in different areas
19:30:19 <stassats`> sometimes it's easier just to by more modern hardware
19:30:31 <tcr> trowl: But they're cool chaps like pkhuong (among others) who do it for fun, see http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/Lisp/hacking_SSE_intrinsics-part_1.html
19:30:37 <stassats`> or most of the time...
19:30:44 <tcr> s/they/there/
19:30:53 <trowl> at a first glance it appears gcc's apply's lambda paradigmn at a compiler level instead of the programming language
19:30:59 <stassats`> s/by/buy/
19:31:19 <trowl> *gcc graphite
19:31:53 <tcr> lispm: I don't think the commercial compilers are interesting from their compiler-technology
19:32:32 <lispm> why not?
19:33:05 <trowl> but anyways, lisp already is a lambda language
19:33:34 <trowl> graphite then is an attempt to lisperize gcc :D
19:33:41 <stassats`> a lambda language?
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19:34:46 <trowl> as fas as I know, that's how lisp is different from others
19:36:06 <stassats`> how? what do you mean by "lambda language"?
19:38:03 <trowl> that's what I read it was
19:38:06 <trowl> google it
19:38:38 <trowl> http://nostoc.stanford.edu/jeff/llisp/index.html   <--- for instance
19:39:31 <stassats`> do you mean, that lisp has anonymous functions?
19:39:38 <stassats`> many languages do
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19:47:43 <trowl> stassats`: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NP-complete
19:48:17 <stassats`> ...
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20:01:06 <Fare> maybe he means HOT -- Higher-Order, Typed
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20:09:37 <Fade> http://coruscant.deepsky.com:9999/board.ucw
20:13:20 <rsynnott> Fade: is it solving it every time you load the page?
20:13:25 <tic> a bunch of numbers. but what does it do?
20:13:41 <Fade> rsynnott: yeah
20:14:35 <Fade> the tiles in red and black are pre-rendered up to 2222, so it could handle a 48x48 board
20:14:54 <rsynnott> gonzojive: for a device with that little memory it may make sense
20:14:55 <fe[nl]ix> Fare: I'm going to implement most of the restrictions in dwheeler's artikle. all things considered, I think that they're a good idea
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20:15:24 <rsynnott> (though objc's memory management, even the non-GCd version, is not entirely manual anyway)
20:15:37 <Fade> tic: it presents a new random solutionto the knight's tour chess problem every time the page is hit.
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20:17:40 <tic> Fade, I see. thanks!
20:18:04 <Fade> built as an Uncommon Web appliction. :)
20:18:17 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20:18:26 <tic> mhm, that part I noticed! .-)
20:18:28 <rsynnott> how did you find uncommon web?
20:18:33 <rsynnott> I keep meaning to try it
20:18:34 <tic> (the .ucw's a giwe-away)
20:18:43 *rsynnott* is currently just using hunchentoot
20:18:59 <Fade> rsynnott: I was working in weblocks, and the upstream revision control kept going down, and I got talking to drewc.
20:19:41 <fe[nl]ix> and a miracle happened ...
20:20:01 <madnificent> trowl: so, you're going to give us more optimisation-sweetness?
20:20:02 <Fade> yeah, a piece of software that performs as advertised. I'm pretty happy /w UCW.
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20:23:01 <Fare> fe[nl]ix, they are but they are not YOUR job,
20:23:02 <newlisper> How does UCW compare to Hunchentoot?
20:23:12 <Fare> unless you're (1) in the Linux kernel
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20:23:35 <madnificent> newlisper: framework vs server
20:23:38 <Fare> and (2) you allow the restrictions overridden when backwards-compatibility is required
20:24:15 <Fare> and (3) you also do NFC or NFD normalization depending on being on Linux or Darwin (what on windows???)
20:24:55 <Fare> (4) you allow to USE existing files that do not conform, though you may disallow creating files with bad filenames
20:25:51 <Fare> (5) once again, you allow the write restriction overridden when needed, e.g. for backup restoration
20:30:59 <abeaumont> how does ucw compare to weblocks?
20:31:12 <abeaumont> or why did you move from weblocks to ucw?
20:33:26 <Fade> the site that held the code and docs kept going away.
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20:34:17 <abeaumont> i see
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20:34:59 <fe[nl]ix> Fare: 1 is not the case, 2 and 3 are easy, 4 and 5 are what I intend to do(more or less)
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20:50:40 <Fare> fe[nl]ix, I still think you should keep the native representation for pathnames
20:50:52 <dto> hi Fare
20:50:56 <Fare> (and any data-structure that needs to be kept live)
20:50:58 <Fare> dto: hi
20:51:08 <fe[nl]ix> the native representation is irrelevant
20:51:09 <Fare> dto: did you look at dwarf fortress?
20:51:24 <Fare> fe[nl]ix, it's not -- it's canonical
20:51:25 <dto> no, i've been working on my architecture of hacks :)
20:51:29 <Fade> now there's a limitless temporal hole.
20:51:41 <dto> Fare: i've never played it, but plan to soon
20:51:47 <dto> probably in quest mode
20:51:58 <dto> i've been watching videos of cave story
20:53:18 <dto> Btw fare: i've put together the game i wish i had displayed at the conference, and I wonder if you would like to link to the video on youtube? as a replacement for the conference i failed to record:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MbsaY8FLaM
20:53:21 <dto> click HD for a better view
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20:55:06 <dto> this is really what i wanted to do at the conference... show gameplay :)
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20:55:44 <dto> btw why was it described as a hack in the meeting summary? was that meant tongue in cheek? or maybe i am being too sensitive?
20:58:50 <Fade> that looks like it'd be a fun game.
21:00:17 <madnificent> dto: I was hoping you'd have created a new video
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21:02:26 <dto> madnificent: i made a new one last night. you mean another new one?
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21:03:45 <dto> they start out similar but the new one is much better
21:05:25 <madnificent> ahh, then I'll look at it later tonight, probably
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21:07:10 <Fade> dto: how long have you been working on that system?
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21:10:23 <dto> Fade: a couple years
21:11:40 <Fade> what language was it initially written in?
21:12:10 <dto> Emacs Lisp (and it had more features, some stuff is not fully ported yet/
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21:15:04 *hefner* doesn't consider "hack" derogatory
21:15:25 <dto> :)
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21:32:24 <Fade> writing a game in emacs must be a bit challenging.
21:34:27 <pjb> Fade: there's an emacs game writting toolkit!
21:34:34 <Fade> lol
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21:54:03 <foom> this looks neat: http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.5.5/autozone-77.1/README.html
21:54:39 <deepfire> Fade, no, this wasn't indended to be funny!
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21:56:27 <antifuchs> foom: yeah... ISTR the clozure team did a bit of integration work to support it - but I suppose you would know more about it (:
21:56:48 <foom> Nope, I don't know anything about it!
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21:57:22 <foom> I didn't realize that it was open source
21:57:28 <foom> (apache-2.0)
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21:58:16 <antifuchs> well, that is sweet
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21:58:38 <foom> maybe sbcl can replace its GC implemetation. :)
21:58:59 <foom> (it's a non-moving GC, which has some downsides, of course)
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22:00:21 <hefner> on the bright side, with a team in house working on a GC, maybe they'll finally fix their kernel to be less wonky
22:01:16 <hefner> (maybe they already have, I don't own one and only collect anecdotes)
22:01:18 <deepfire> foom, long-term performance decay?
22:01:28 <deepfire> (due to fragmentation)
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22:02:26 <foom> well, SBCL has had lots of issues with the use of signals
22:02:36 <foom> it looks like they use a function called "thread_suspend" to stop another thread instead
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22:02:40 <lispm> Mac OS X is thrashing a lot already
22:04:00 <deepfire> lispm, due to garbage issues, or due to the VM being inefficient?
22:04:17 <lispm> no, Mac OS X in general
22:04:47 <foom> I guess thread_suspend is a direct mach kernel call.
22:04:47 <lispm> apps are using lots of memory, paging seems to be not very efficient
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22:06:52 <foom> hrm. i wonder...the Red Zone in x86-64 calling convention seems like it interacts badly with GC.
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22:08:43 <foom> since you're potentially keeping long-forgotten garbage in memory just because it's within 128bytes of the current stack pointer.
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23:02:28 <attila_lendvai> ironclad doesn't compile with sbcl head?
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23:05:16 <fe[nl]ix> attila_lendvai: apparently not
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23:06:07 <attila_lendvai> i wanted to update the live system. i guess that's life on the edge... :)
23:06:07 <Quadrescence> Is there a fasl specification or anything?
23:07:15 <fe[nl]ix> Quadrescence: no
23:07:37 <Quadrescence> Thought so.
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23:15:30 <kami-> good night
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23:19:52 <deepfire> Quadrescence, in a sense there is -- but it is defined in terms of COMPILE-FILE + LOAD constraints, not of "this byte means that" specifics.
23:20:37 <deepfire> Gah, ran out of wine.
23:20:58 <beach> deepfire: come over to my house.  I have a cellar full.
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23:22:25 <deepfire> beach, next time I drop by Bordeaux, sure thing..
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23:24:07 <beach> I take it you are not that close.
23:24:33 <Quadrescence> deepfire: Ah, okay.
23:24:55 <deepfire> beach, yes, near Moscow and never been outside Russia..
23:25:17 <beach> The former is a problem.  The latter can be fixed.
23:25:59 <deepfire> I've been as far as the lake Baikal, which is 3.5 days by train here, but never abroad.
23:26:49 <beach> er, that didn't get across right.  I didn't mean to say that living near Moscow was an inherent problem, other than that it would take some time to reach my wine cellar.
23:27:00 <deepfire> :-)
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23:28:02 <Quadrescence> deepfire: Invite me to Russia sometime, because I'm getting lazy about learning the language.
23:28:08 -!- sdsdsd is now known as dto
23:28:09 <Quadrescence> beach: Same with you to France.
23:28:17 -!- dto is now known as dto3
23:28:18 <beach> deepfire: There is still time.  My secretary is in her 50s, and we just paid her a trip to Vietnam, her first visit to a foreign country.  She was delighted and might do this a lot more often now.
23:28:39 <beach> Quadrescence: consider yourself as having a permanent invitation.
23:28:43 -!- dto3 is now known as dto
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23:29:04 <Quadrescence> beach: Hehe. I really want to visit there, seeing that I like French a lot.
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23:30:19 <beach> Quadrescence: as I tell pretty much everyone, you can stay in our guest room provided you are not too messy, but you need to tell us in advance because we frequently have guests.
23:30:56 <Quadrescence> beach: I wash my tooth brush under boiling water before and after use. I consider myself clean.
23:31:30 <beach> Quadrescence: I am more concerned about the effects you might have on our house than on your teeth.  Sorry about that.
23:31:57 <Quadrescence> beach: Hehe, that was just an example. I washed the bathroom mirror three times yesterday. :>
23:32:29 <beach> Quadrescence: How about you come next week and stay for a couple of years.  (I could fire the cleaning lady).
23:32:59 <Quadrescence> beach: Haha, maybe if I got to learn more French alongside it and do lisp. ;)
23:33:26 <beach> Quadrescence: minor problem: We speak English at home.
23:33:32 <Quadrescence> Psh.
23:33:50 <Quadrescence> Well, not a minor problem since I would just be fumbling about my words.
23:34:13 <beach> Oh, well.
23:34:24 <beach> I guess I'll keep the cleaning lady after all.
23:34:49 <Quadrescence> Hehe
23:34:59 <attila_lendvai> hmmm, traveling... if i only had a week or two to spare! but that's life if you want to live from lisp contracts... :)
23:35:38 <Quadrescence> So, this question comes up lots and lots, I'm sure, but what's Lisp's status in the job world?
23:36:01 <deepfire> I feel guilty for not being productive enough, from time to time. I actually get paid for hacking lisp code.
23:36:22 <Quadrescence> deepfire: That would be so cool.
23:36:38 <Quadrescence> (to be paid to do (hopefully interesting) lisp)
23:36:54 <beach> Academia is great that way, because you can actually decide what to work on.
23:37:10 <Quadrescence> beach: Yeah, that's why I might want to go into academia.
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23:37:51 <deepfire> beach, my work is good in exactly that sense -- having a certain amount of leeway in long-term direction choice.
23:38:39 <beach> deepfire: It sounds like you found a place for yourself.  Congratulations!
23:39:00 <lisppaste> francogrex pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77652
23:39:11 <attila_lendvai> Quadrescence: start your company and then you can use lisp all day... you'll even get to hate it... :)
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23:39:38 <francogrex> Hi, I pasted a code can anyone pls tell me if the resulting assembly can now be directly used?
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23:40:47 <Quadrescence> attila_lendvai: I'll never hate lisp. If I haven't begun to hate C, then lisp will last a lifetime.
23:42:09 <beach> francogrex: "directly used"?
23:42:36 <Quadrescence> beach: I assume he wants a stand alone executable.
23:42:51 <Quadrescence> (he/she)
23:42:58 <beach> Oh!
23:43:18 <hefner> beach: can you? I was under the impression many academics worked on whatever was faddish and effective at soliciting funding
23:43:33 <hefner> (maybe I confuse what you can do with what most actually do)
23:44:02 <beach> hefner: It depends a lot on the country.  We might not have very long time left with that freedom.
23:44:07 <Quadrescence> I still need to figure out how one might make executables, without carrying an entire lisp image.
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23:44:33 <beach> Quadrescence: you could turn SBCL into a collection of .so files.
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23:44:56 <pjb> Easier to use ecl then.
23:45:17 <beach> Probably so, yes.
23:46:44 <beach> hefner: but yeah, as things are right now, I can actually do my job with 0 external funding.
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23:52:09 <hefner> beach: that's encouraging.
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23:53:28 <hefner> although we're never going to master "sensor networks" with that kind of attitude
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